(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to theCube's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, your host of "theCUBE." We've got great two remote guests coming into our Palo Alto Studios, some tech athletes, as we say, people that've been in the trenches, years of experience, Lena Smart, CISO at MongoDB, Cube alumni, and Tara Hernandez, VP of Developer Productivity at MongoDB as well. Thanks for coming in to this program and supporting our efforts today. Thanks so much. >> Thanks for having us. >> Yeah, everyone talk about the journey in tech, where it all started. Before we get there, talk about what you guys are doing at MongoDB specifically. MongoDB is kind of gone the next level as a platform. You have your own ecosystem, lot of developers, very technical crowd, but it's changing the business transformation. What do you guys do at Mongo? We'll start with you, Lena. >> So I'm the CISO, so all security goes through me. I like to say, well, I don't like to say, I'm described as the ones throat to choke. So anything to do with security basically starts and ends with me. We do have a fantastic Cloud engineering security team and a product security team, and they don't report directly to me, but obviously we have very close relationships. I like to keep that kind of church and state separate and I know I've spoken about that before. And we just recently set up a physical security team with an amazing gentleman who left the FBI and he came to join us after 26 years for the agency. So, really starting to look at the physical aspects of what we offer as well. >> I interviewed a CISO the other day and she said, "Every day is day zero for me." Kind of goofing on the Amazon Day one thing, but Tara, go ahead. Tara, go ahead. What's your role there, developer productivity? What are you focusing on? >> Sure. Developer productivity is kind of the latest description for things that we've described over the years as, you know, DevOps oriented engineering or platform engineering or build and release engineering development infrastructure. It's all part and parcel, which is how do we actually get our code from developer to customer, you know, and all the mechanics that go into that. It's been something I discovered from my first job way back in the early '90s at Borland. And the art has just evolved enormously ever since, so. >> Yeah, this is a very great conversation both of you guys, right in the middle of all the action and data infrastructures changing, exploding, and involving big time AI and data tsunami and security never stops. Well, let's get into, we'll talk about that later, but let's get into what motivated you guys to pursue a career in tech and what were some of the challenges that you faced along the way? >> I'll go first. The fact of the matter was I intended to be a double major in history and literature when I went off to university, but I was informed that I had to do a math or a science degree or else the university would not be paid for. At the time, UC Santa Cruz had a policy that called Open Access Computing. This is, you know, the late '80s, early '90s. And anybody at the university could get an email account and that was unusual at the time if you were, those of us who remember, you used to have to pay for that CompuServe or AOL or, there's another one, I forget what it was called, but if a student at Santa Cruz could have an email account. And because of that email account, I met people who were computer science majors and I'm like, "Okay, I'll try that." That seems good. And it was a little bit of a struggle for me, a lot I won't lie, but I can't complain with how it ended up. And certainly once I found my niche, which was development infrastructure, I found my true love and I've been doing it for almost 30 years now. >> Awesome. Great story. Can't wait to ask a few questions on that. We'll go back to that late '80s, early '90s. Lena, your journey, how you got into it. >> So slightly different start. I did not go to university. I had to leave school when I was 16, got a job, had to help support my family. Worked a bunch of various jobs till I was about 21 and then computers became more, I think, I wouldn't say they were ubiquitous, but they were certainly out there. And I'd also been saving up every penny I could earn to buy my own computer and bought an Amstrad 1640, 20 meg hard drive. It rocked. And kind of took that apart, put it back together again, and thought that could be money in this. And so basically just teaching myself about computers any job that I got. 'Cause most of my jobs were like clerical work and secretary at that point. But any job that had a computer in front of that, I would make it my business to go find the guy who did computing 'cause it was always a guy. And I would say, you know, I want to learn how these work. Let, you know, show me. And, you know, I would take my lunch hour and after work and anytime I could with these people and they were very kind with their time and I just kept learning, so yep. >> Yeah, those early days remind me of the inflection point we're going through now. This major C change coming. Back then, if you had a computer, you had to kind of be your own internal engineer to fix things. Remember back on the systems revolution, late '80s, Tara, when, you know, your career started, those were major inflection points. Now we're seeing a similar wave right now, security, infrastructure. It feels like it's going to a whole nother level. At Mongo, you guys certainly see this as well, with this AI surge coming in. A lot more action is coming in. And so there's a lot of parallels between these inflection points. How do you guys see this next wave of change? Obviously, the AI stuff's blowing everyone away. Oh, new user interface. It's been called the browser moment, the mobile iPhone moment, kind of for this generation. There's a lot of people out there who are watching that are young in their careers, what's your take on this? How would you talk to those folks around how important this wave is? >> It, you know, it's funny, I've been having this conversation quite a bit recently in part because, you know, to me AI in a lot of ways is very similar to, you know, back in the '90s when we were talking about bringing in the worldwide web to the forefront of the world, right. And we tended to think in terms of all the optimistic benefits that would come of it. You know, free passing of information, availability to anyone, anywhere. You just needed an internet connection, which back then of course meant a modem. >> John: Not everyone had though. >> Exactly. But what we found in the subsequent years is that human beings are what they are and we bring ourselves to whatever platforms that are there, right. And so, you know, as much as it was amazing to have this freely available HTML based internet experience, it also meant that the negatives came to the forefront quite quickly. And there were ramifications of that. And so to me, when I look at AI, we're already seeing the ramifications to that. Yes, are there these amazing, optimistic, wonderful things that can be done? Yes. >> Yeah. >> But we're also human and the bad stuff's going to come out too. And how do we- >> Yeah. >> How do we as an industry, as a community, you know, understand and mitigate those ramifications so that we can benefit more from the positive than the negative. So it is interesting that it comes kind of full circle in really interesting ways. >> Yeah. The underbelly takes place first, gets it in the early adopter mode. Normally industries with, you know, money involved arbitrage, no standards. But we've seen this movie before. Is there hope, Lena, that we can have a more secure environment? >> I would hope so. (Lena laughs) Although depressingly, we've been in this well for 30 years now and we're, at the end of the day, still telling people not to click links on emails. So yeah, that kind of still keeps me awake at night a wee bit. The whole thing about AI, I mean, it's, obviously I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination in AI. I did read (indistinct) book recently about AI and that was kind of interesting. And I'm just trying to teach myself as much as I can about it to the extent of even buying the "Dummies Guide to AI." Just because, it's actually not a dummies guide. It's actually fairly interesting, but I'm always thinking about it from a security standpoint. So it's kind of my worst nightmare and the best thing that could ever happen in the same dream. You know, you've got this technology where I can ask it a question and you know, it spits out generally a reasonable answer. And my team are working on with Mark Porter our CTO and his team on almost like an incubation of AI link. What would it look like from MongoDB? What's the legal ramifications? 'Cause there will be legal ramifications even though it's the wild, wild west just now, I think. Regulation's going to catch up to us pretty quickly, I would think. >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> And so I think, you know, as long as companies have a seat at the table and governments perhaps don't become too dictatorial over this, then hopefully we'll be in a good place. But we'll see. I think it's a really interest, there's that curse, we're living in interesting times. I think that's where we are. >> It's interesting just to stay on this tech trend for a minute. The standards bodies are different now. Back in the old days there were, you know, IEEE standards, ITF standards. >> Tara: TPC. >> The developers are the new standard. I mean, now you're seeing open source completely different where it was in the '90s to here beginning, that was gen one, some say gen two, but I say gen one, now we're exploding with open source. You have kind of developers setting the standards. If developers like it in droves, it becomes defacto, which then kind of rolls into implementation. >> Yeah, I mean I think if you don't have developer input, and this is why I love working with Tara and her team so much is 'cause they get it. If we don't have input from developers, it's not going to get used. There's going to be ways of of working around it, especially when it comes to security. If they don't, you know, if you're a developer and you're sat at your screen and you don't want to do that particular thing, you're going to find a way around it. You're a smart person. >> Yeah. >> So. >> Developers on the front lines now versus, even back in the '90s, they're like, "Okay, consider the dev's, got a QA team." Everything was Waterfall, now it's Cloud, and developers are on the front lines of everything. Tara, I mean, this is where the standards are being met. What's your reaction to that? >> Well, I think it's outstanding. I mean, you know, like I was at Netscape and part of the crowd that released the browser as open source and we founded mozilla.org, right. And that was, you know, in many ways kind of the birth of the modern open source movement beyond what we used to have, what was basically free software foundation was sort of the only game in town. And I think it is so incredibly valuable. I want to emphasize, you know, and pile onto what Lena was saying, it's not just that the developers are having input on a sort of company by company basis. Open source to me is like a checks and balance, where it allows us as a broader community to be able to agree on and enforce certain standards in order to try and keep the technology platforms as accessible as possible. I think Kubernetes is a great example of that, right. If we didn't have Kubernetes, that would've really changed the nature of how we think about container orchestration. But even before that, Linux, right. Linux allowed us as an industry to end the Unix Wars and as someone who was on the front lines of that as well and having to support 42 different operating systems with our product, you know, that was a huge win. And it allowed us to stop arguing about operating systems and start arguing about software or not arguing, but developing it in positive ways. So with, you know, with Kubernetes, with container orchestration, we all agree, okay, that's just how we're going to orchestrate. Now we can build up this huge ecosystem, everybody gets taken along, right. And now it changes the game for what we're defining as business differentials, right. And so when we talk about crypto, that's a little bit harder, but certainly with AI, right, you know, what are the checks and balances that as an industry and as the developers around this, that we can in, you know, enforce to make sure that no one company or no one body is able to overly control how these things are managed, how it's defined. And I think that is only for the benefit in the industry as a whole, particularly when we think about the only other option is it gets regulated in ways that do not involve the people who actually know the details of what they're talking about. >> Regulated and or thrown away or bankrupt or- >> Driven underground. >> Yeah. >> Which would be even worse actually. >> Yeah, that's a really interesting, the checks and balances. I love that call out. And I was just talking with another interview part of the series around women being represented in the 51% ratio. Software is for everybody. So that we believe that open source movement around the collective intelligence of the participants in the industry and independent of gender, this is going to be the next wave. You're starting to see these videos really have impact because there are a lot more leaders now at the table in companies developing software systems and with AI, the aperture increases for applications. And this is the new dynamic. What's your guys view on this dynamic? How does this go forward in a positive way? Is there a certain trajectory you see? For women in the industry? >> I mean, I think some of the states are trying to, again, from the government angle, some of the states are trying to force women into the boardroom, for example, California, which can be no bad thing, but I don't know, sometimes I feel a bit iffy about all this kind of forced- >> John: Yeah. >> You know, making, I don't even know how to say it properly so you can cut this part of the interview. (John laughs) >> Tara: Well, and I think that they're >> I'll say it's not organic. >> No, and I think they're already pulling it out, right. It's already been challenged so they're in the process- >> Well, this is the open source angle, Tara, you are getting at it. The change agent is open, right? So to me, the history of the proven model is openness drives transparency drives progress. >> No, it's- >> If you believe that to be true, this could have another impact. >> Yeah, it's so interesting, right. Because if you look at McKinsey Consulting or Boston Consulting or some of the other, I'm blocking on all of the names. There has been a decade or more of research that shows that a non homogeneous employee base, be it gender or ethnicity or whatever, generates more revenue, right? There's dollar signs that can be attached to this, but it's not enough for all companies to want to invest in that way. And it's not enough for all, you know, venture firms or investment firms to grant that seed money or do those seed rounds. I think it's getting better very slowly, but socialization is a much harder thing to overcome over time. Particularly, when you're not just talking about one country like the United States in our case, but around the world. You know, tech centers now exist all over the world, including places that even 10 years ago we might not have expected like Nairobi, right. Which I think is amazing, but you have to factor in the cultural implications of that as well, right. So yes, the openness is important and we have, it's important that we have those voices, but I don't think it's a panacea solution, right. It's just one more piece. I think honestly that one of the most important opportunities has been with Cloud computing and Cloud's been around for a while. So why would I say that? It's because if you think about like everybody holds up the Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, back in the '70s, or Sergey and Larry for Google, you know, you had to have access to enough credit card limit to go to Fry's and buy your servers and then access to somebody like Susan Wojcicki to borrow the garage or whatever. But there was still a certain amount of upfrontness that you had to be able to commit to, whereas now, and we've, I think, seen a really good evidence of this being able to lease server resources by the second and have development platforms that you can do on your phone. I mean, for a while I think Africa, that the majority of development happened on mobile devices because there wasn't a sufficient supply chain of laptops yet. And that's no longer true now as far as I know. But like the power that that enables for people who would otherwise be underrepresented in our industry instantly opens it up, right? And so to me that's I think probably the biggest opportunity that we've seen from an industry on how to make more availability in underrepresented representation for entrepreneurship. >> Yeah. >> Something like AI, I think that's actually going to take us backwards if we're not careful. >> Yeah. >> Because of we're reinforcing that socialization. >> Well, also the bias. A lot of people commenting on the biases of the large language inherently built in are also problem. Lena, I want you to weigh on this too, because I think the skills question comes up here and I've been advocating that you don't need the pedigree, college pedigree, to get into a certain jobs, you mentioned Cloud computing. I mean, it's been around for you think a long time, but not really, really think about it. The ability to level up, okay, if you're going to join something new and half the jobs in cybersecurity are created in the past year, right? So, you have this what used to be a barrier, your degree, your pedigree, your certification would take years, would be a blocker. Now that's gone. >> Lena: Yeah, it's the opposite. >> That's, in fact, psychology. >> I think so, but the people who I, by and large, who I interview for jobs, they have, I think security people and also I work with our compliance folks and I can't forget them, but let's talk about security just now. I've always found a particular kind of mindset with security folks. We're very curious, not very good at following rules a lot of the time, and we'd love to teach others. I mean, that's one of the big things stem from the start of my career. People were always interested in teaching and I was interested in learning. So it was perfect. And I think also having, you know, strong women leaders at MongoDB allows other underrepresented groups to actually apply to the company 'cause they see that we're kind of talking the talk. And that's been important. I think it's really important. You know, you've got Tara and I on here today. There's obviously other senior women at MongoDB that you can talk to as well. There's a bunch of us. There's not a whole ton of us, but there's a bunch of us. And it's good. It's definitely growing. I've been there for four years now and I've seen a growth in women in senior leadership positions. And I think having that kind of track record of getting really good quality underrepresented candidates to not just interview, but come and join us, it's seen. And it's seen in the industry and people take notice and they're like, "Oh, okay, well if that person's working, you know, if Tara Hernandez is working there, I'm going to apply for that." And that in itself I think can really, you know, reap the rewards. But it's getting started. It's like how do you get your first strong female into that position or your first strong underrepresented person into that position? It's hard. I get it. If it was easy, we would've sold already. >> It's like anything. I want to see people like me, my friends in there. Am I going to be alone? Am I going to be of a group? It's a group psychology. Why wouldn't? So getting it out there is key. Is there skills that you think that people should pay attention to? One's come up as curiosity, learning. What are some of the best practices for folks trying to get into the tech field or that's in the tech field and advancing through? What advice are you guys- >> I mean, yeah, definitely, what I say to my team is within my budget, we try and give every at least one training course a year. And there's so much free stuff out there as well. But, you know, keep learning. And even if it's not right in your wheelhouse, don't pick about it. Don't, you know, take a look at what else could be out there that could interest you and then go for it. You know, what does it take you few minutes each night to read a book on something that might change your entire career? You know, be enthusiastic about the opportunities out there. And there's so many opportunities in security. Just so many. >> Tara, what's your advice for folks out there? Tons of stuff to taste, taste test, try things. >> Absolutely. I mean, I always say, you know, my primary qualifications for people, I'm looking for them to be smart and motivated, right. Because the industry changes so quickly. What we're doing now versus what we did even last year versus five years ago, you know, is completely different though themes are certainly the same. You know, we still have to code and we still have to compile that code or package the code and ship the code so, you know, how well can we adapt to these new things instead of creating floppy disks, which was my first job. Five and a quarters, even. The big ones. >> That's old school, OG. There it is. Well done. >> And now it's, you know, containers, you know, (indistinct) image containers. And so, you know, I've gotten a lot of really great success hiring boot campers, you know, career transitioners. Because they bring a lot experience in addition to the technical skills. I think the most important thing is to experiment and figuring out what do you like, because, you know, maybe you are really into security or maybe you're really into like deep level coding and you want to go back, you know, try to go to school to get a degree where you would actually want that level of learning. Or maybe you're a front end engineer, you want to be full stacked. Like there's so many different things, data science, right. Maybe you want to go learn R right. You know, I think it's like figure out what you like because once you find that, that in turn is going to energize you 'cause you're going to feel motivated. I think the worst thing you could do is try to force yourself to learn something that you really could not care less about. That's just the worst. You're going in handicapped. >> Yeah and there's choices now versus when we were breaking into the business. It was like, okay, you software engineer. They call it software engineering, that's all it was. You were that or you were in sales. Like, you know, some sort of systems engineer or sales and now it's,- >> I had never heard of my job when I was in school, right. I didn't even know it was a possibility. But there's so many different types of technical roles, you know, absolutely. >> It's so exciting. I wish I was young again. >> One of the- >> Me too. (Lena laughs) >> I don't. I like the age I am. So one of the things that I did to kind of harness that curiosity is we've set up a security champions programs. About 120, I guess, volunteers globally. And these are people from all different backgrounds and all genders, diversity groups, underrepresented groups, we feel are now represented within this champions program. And people basically give up about an hour or two of their time each week, with their supervisors permission, and we basically teach them different things about security. And we've now had seven full-time people move from different areas within MongoDB into my team as a result of that program. So, you know, monetarily and time, yeah, saved us both. But also we're showing people that there is a path, you know, if you start off in Tara's team, for example, doing X, you join the champions program, you're like, "You know, I'd really like to get into red teaming. That would be so cool." If it fits, then we make that happen. And that has been really important for me, especially to give, you know, the women in the underrepresented groups within MongoDB just that window into something they might never have seen otherwise. >> That's a great common fit is fit matters. Also that getting access to what you fit is also access to either mentoring or sponsorship or some sort of, at least some navigation. Like what's out there and not being afraid to like, you know, just ask. >> Yeah, we just actually kicked off our big mentor program last week, so I'm the executive sponsor of that. I know Tara is part of it, which is fantastic. >> We'll put a plug in for it. Go ahead. >> Yeah, no, it's amazing. There's, gosh, I don't even know the numbers anymore, but there's a lot of people involved in this and so much so that we've had to set up mentoring groups rather than one-on-one. And I think it was 45% of the mentors are actually male, which is quite incredible for a program called Mentor Her. And then what we want to do in the future is actually create a program called Mentor Them so that it's not, you know, not just on the female and so that we can live other groups represented and, you know, kind of break down those groups a wee bit more and have some more granularity in the offering. >> Tara, talk about mentoring and sponsorship. Open source has been there for a long time. People help each other. It's community-oriented. What's your view of how to work with mentors and sponsors if someone's moving through ranks? >> You know, one of the things that was really interesting, unfortunately, in some of the earliest open source communities is there was a lot of pervasive misogyny to be perfectly honest. >> Yeah. >> And one of the important adaptations that we made as an open source community was the idea, an introduction of code of conducts. And so when I'm talking to women who are thinking about expanding their skills, I encourage them to join open source communities to have opportunity, even if they're not getting paid for it, you know, to develop their skills to work with people to get those code reviews, right. I'm like, "Whatever you join, make sure they have a code of conduct and a good leadership team. It's very important." And there are plenty, right. And then that idea has come into, you know, conferences now. So now conferences have codes of contact, if there are any good, and maybe not all of them, but most of them, right. And the ideas of expanding that idea of intentional healthy culture. >> John: Yeah. >> As a business goal and business differentiator. I mean, I won't lie, when I was recruited to come to MongoDB, the culture that I was able to discern through talking to people, in addition to seeing that there was actually women in senior leadership roles like Lena, like Kayla Nelson, that was a huge win. And so it just builds on momentum. And so now, you know, those of us who are in that are now representing. And so that kind of reinforces, but it's all ties together, right. As the open source world goes, particularly for a company like MongoDB, which has an open source product, you know, and our community builds. You know, it's a good thing to be mindful of for us, how we interact with the community and you know, because that could also become an opportunity for recruiting. >> John: Yeah. >> Right. So we, in addition to people who might become advocates on Mongo's behalf in their own company as a solution for themselves, so. >> You guys had great successful company and great leadership there. I mean, I can't tell you how many times someone's told me "MongoDB doesn't scale. It's going to be dead next year." I mean, I was going back 10 years. It's like, just keeps getting better and better. You guys do a great job. So it's so fun to see the success of developers. Really appreciate you guys coming on the program. Final question, what are you guys excited about to end the segment? We'll give you guys the last word. Lena will start with you and Tara, you can wrap us up. What are you excited about? >> I'm excited to see what this year brings. I think with ChatGPT and its copycats, I think it'll be a very interesting year when it comes to AI and always in the lookout for the authentic deep fakes that we see coming out. So just trying to make people aware that this is a real thing. It's not just pretend. And then of course, our old friend ransomware, let's see where that's going to go. >> John: Yeah. >> And let's see where we get to and just genuine hygiene and housekeeping when it comes to security. >> Excellent. Tara. >> Ah, well for us, you know, we're always constantly trying to up our game from a security perspective in the software development life cycle. But also, you know, what can we do? You know, one interesting application of AI that maybe Google doesn't like to talk about is it is really cool as an addendum to search and you know, how we might incorporate that as far as our learning environment and developer productivity, and how can we enable our developers to be more efficient, productive in their day-to-day work. So, I don't know, there's all kinds of opportunities that we're looking at for how we might improve that process here at MongoDB and then maybe be able to share it with the world. One of the things I love about working at MongoDB is we get to use our own products, right. And so being able to have this interesting document database in order to put information and then maybe apply some sort of AI to get it out again, is something that we may well be looking at, if not this year, then certainly in the coming year. >> Awesome. Lena Smart, the chief information security officer. Tara Hernandez, vice president developer of productivity from MongoDB. Thank you so much for sharing here on International Women's Day. We're going to do this quarterly every year. We're going to do it and then we're going to do quarterly updates. Thank you so much for being part of this program. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> Okay, this is theCube's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(gentle music) >> Hello, and welcome to theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. I've got a great guest here, CUBE alumni and very impressive, inspiring, Rachel Mushahwar Skaff, who's a managing director and general manager at AWS. Rachel, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to be here. You all make such a tremendous impact with reporting out what's happening in the tech space, and frankly, investing in topics like this, so thank you. >> It's our pleasure. Your career has been really impressive. You worked at Intel for almost a decade, and that company is very tech, very focused on Moore's law, cadence of technology power in the industry. Now at AWS, powering next-generation cloud. What inspired you to get into tech? How did you get here and how have you approached your career journey, because it's quite a track record? >> Wow, how long do we have? (Rachel and John laugh) >> John: We can go as long as you want. (laughs) It's great. >> You know, all joking aside, I think at the end of the day, it's about this simple statement. If you don't get goosebumps every single morning that you're waking up to do your job, it's not good enough. And that's a bit about how I've made all of the different career transitions that I have. You know, everything from building out data centers around the world, to leading network and engineering teams, to leading applications teams, to going and working for, you know, the largest semiconductor in the world, and now at AWS, every single one of those opportunities gave me goosebumps. And I was really focused on how do I surround myself with humans that are better than I am, smarter than I am, companies that plan in decades, but live in moments, companies that invest in their employees and create like artists? And frankly, for me, being part of a company where people know that life is finite, but they want to make an infinite impact, that's a bit about my career journey in a nutshell. >> Yeah. What's interesting is that, you know, over the years, a lot's changed, and a theme that we're hearing from leaders now that are heading up large teams and running companies, they have, you know, they have 20-plus years of experience under their belt and they look back and they say, "Wow, "things have changed and it's changing faster now, "hopefully faster to get change." But they all talk about confidence and they talk about curiosity and building. When did you know that this was going to be something that you got the goosebumps? And were there blockers in your way and how did you handle that? (Rachel laughs) >> There's always blockers in our way, and I think a lot of people don't actually talk about the blockers. I think they make it sound like, hey, I had this plan from day one, and every decision I've made has been perfect. And for me, I'll tell you, right, there are moments in your life that mark a differentiation and those moments that you realize nothing will be the same. And time is kind of divided into two parts, right, before this moment and after this moment. And that's everything from, before I had kids, that's a pretty big moment in people's lives, to after I had kids, and how do you work through some of those opportunities? Before I got married, before I got divorced. Before I went to this company, after I left this company. And I think the key for all of those is just having an insatiable curiosity around how do you continue to do better, create better and make better? And I'll tell you, those blockers, they exist. Coming back from maternity leave, hard. Coming back from a medical leave, hard. Coming back from caring for a sick parent or a sick friend, hard. But all of those things start to help craft who you are as a human being, not as a leader, but as a human being, and allows you to have some empathy with the people that you surround yourself with, right? And for me, it's, (sighs) you can think about these blockers in one of two ways. You can think about it as, you know, every single time that you're tempted to react in the same way to a blocker, you can be a prisoner of your past, or you can change how you react and be a pioneer of the future. It's not a blocker when you think about it in those terms. >> Mindset matters, and that's really a great point. You brought up something that's interesting, I want to bring this up. Some of the challenges in different stages of our lives. You know, one thing that's come out of this set of interviews, this, of day and in conversations is, that I haven't heard before, is the result of COVID, working at home brought empathy about people's personal lives to the table. That came up in a couple interviews. What's your reaction to that? Because that highlights that we're human, to your point of view. >> It does. It does. And I'm so thankful that you don't ask about balance because that is a pet peeve of mine, because there is no such thing as balance. If you're in perfect balance, you are not moving and you're not changing. But when you think about, you know, the impact of COVID and how the world has changed since that, it has allowed all of us to really think about, you know, what do we want to do versus what do we have to do? And I think so many times, in both our professional lives and our personal lives, we get caught up in doing what we think we have to do to get ahead versus taking a step back and saying, "Hey, what do I want to do? "And how do I become a, you know, "a better human?" And many times, John, I'm asked, "Hey, "how do you define success or achievement?" And, you know, my answer is really, for me, the greatest results that I've achieved, both personally and professionally, is when I eliminate the word success and balance from my vocabulary, and replace them with two words: What's my contribution and what's my impact? Those things make a difference, regardless of gender. And I'll tell you, none of it is easy, ever. I think all of us have been broken, we've been stretched, we've been burnt out. But I also think what we have to talk about as leaders in the industry is how we've also found endurance and resilience. And when we felt unsteady, we've continued to go forward, right? When we can't decide, the best answer is do what's uncomfortable. And all of those things really stemmed from a part of what happened with COVID. >> Yeah, yeah, I love the uncomfortable and the balance highlight. You mentioned being off balance. That means you're growing, you're not standing still. I want to get your thoughts on this because one thing that has come out again this year, and last year as well, is having a team with you when you do it. So if you're off balance and you're going to stretch, if you have a good team with you, that's where people help each other. Not just pick them up, but like maybe get 'em back on track again. So, but if you're solo, you fall, (laughs) you fall harder. So what's your reaction to that? 'Cause this has come up, and this comes up in team building, workforce formation, goal setting, contribution. What's your reaction to that? >> So my reaction to that that is pretty simple. Nobody gets there on their own at all, right? Passion and ambition can only take you so far. You've got to have people and teams that are supporting you. And here's the funny thing about people, and frankly, about being a leader that I think is really important: People don't follow for you. People follow for who you help them become. Think about that for a second. And when you think about all the amazing things that companies and teams are able to do, it's because of those people. And it's because you have leaders that are out there, inspiring them to take what they believe is impossible and turn it into the possible. That's the power of teams. >> Can you give an example of your approach on how you do that? How do you build your teams? How do you grow them? How do you lead them effectively and also make 'em inclusive, diverse and equitable? >> Whew. I'll give you a great example of some work that we're doing at AWS. This year at re:Invent, for the first time in its history, we've launched an initiative with theCUBE called Women of the Cloud. And part of Women of the Cloud is highlighting the business impact that so many of our partners, our customers and our employees have had on the social, on the economic and on the financials of many companies. They just haven't had the opportunity to tell their story. And at Amazon, right, it is absolutely integral to us to highlight those examples and continue to extend that ethos to our partners and our customers. And I think one of the things that I shared with you at re:Invent was, you know, as U2's Bono put it, (John laughs) "We'll build it better than we did before "and we are the people "that we've been waiting for." So if we're not out there, advocating and highlighting all the amazing things that other women are doing in the ecosystem, who will? >> Well, I've got to say, I want to give you props for that program. Not only was it groundbreaking, it's still running strong. And I saw some things on LinkedIn that were really impressive in its network effect. And I met at least half a dozen new people I never would have met before through some of that content interaction and engagement. And this is like the power of the current world. I mean, getting the voices out there creates momentum. And it's good for Amazon. It's not just personal brand building for my next job or whatever, you know, reason. It's sharing and it's attracting others, and it's causing people to connect and meet each other in that world. So it's still going strong. (laughs) And this program we did last year was part of Rachel Thornton, who's now at MessageBird, and Mary Camarata. They were the sponsors for this International Women's Day. They're not there anymore, so we decided we're going to do it again because the impact is so significant. We had the Amazon Education group on. It's amazing and it's free, and we've got to get the word out. I mean, talk about leveling up fast. You get in and you get trained and get certified, and there's a zillion jobs out (laughs) there in cloud, right, and partners. So this kind of leadership is really important. What was the key learnings that you've taken away and how do you extend this opportunity to nurture the talent out there in the field? Because when you throw the content out there from great leaders and practitioners and developers, it attracts other people. >> It does. It does. So look, I think there's two types of people, people that are focused on being and people who are focused on doing. And let me give you an example, right? When we think about labels of, hey, Rachel's a female executive who launched Women of the Cloud, that label really limits me. I'd rather just be a great executive. Or, hey, there's a great entrepreneur. Let's not be a great entrepreneur. Just go build something and sell it. And that's part of this whole Women of the cloud, is I don't want people focused on what their label is. I want people sharing their stories about what they're doing, and that's where the lasting impact happens, right? I think about something that my grandmother used to tell me, and she used to tell me, "Rachel, how successful "you are, doesn't matter. "The lasting impact that you have "is your legacy in this very finite time "that you have on Earth. "Leave a legacy." And that's what Women of the Cloud is about. So that people can start to say, "Oh, geez, "I didn't know that that was possible. "I didn't think about my career in that way." And, you know, all of those different types of stories that you're hearing out there. >> And I want to highlight something you said. We had another Amazonian on the program for this day earlier and she coined a term, 'cause inside Amazon, you have common language. One of them is bar raising. Raise the bar, that's an Amazonian (Rachel laughs) term. It means contribute and improve and raise the bar of capability. She said, "Bar raising is gender neutral. "The bar is a bar." And I'm like, wow, that was amazing. Now, that means your contribution angle there highlights that. What's the biggest challenge to get that mindset set in culture, in these- >> Oh. >> 'Cause it's that simple, contribution is neutral. >> It absolutely is neutral, but it's like I said earlier, I think so many times, people are focused on success and being a great leader versus what's the contribution I'm making and how am I doing as a leader, you know? And when it comes to a lot of the leadership principles that Amazon has, including bar raising, which means insisting on the highest standards, and then those standards continue to raise every single time. And what that is all about is having all of our employees figure out, how do I get better every single day, right? That's what it's about. It's not about being better than the peer next to you. It's about how do I become a better leader, a better human being than I was yesterday? >> Awesome. >> You know, I read this really cute quote and I think it really resonates. "You meditate to upgrade your software "and you work out to upgrade your hardware." And while it's important that we're all ourselves at work, we can't deny that a lot of times, ourselves still need that meditation or that workout. >> Well, I hope I don't have any zero days in my software out there, so, but I'm going to definitely work on that. I love that quote. I'm going to use that. Thank you very much. That was awesome. I got to ask you, I know you're really passionate about, and we've talked about this, around, so you're a great leader but you're also focused on what's behind you in the generation, pipelining women leaders, okay? Seats at the table, mentoring and sponsorship. What can we do to build a strong pipeline of leaders in technology and business? And where do you see the biggest opportunity to nurture the talent in these fields? >> Hmm, you know, that's great, great question. And, you know, I just read a "Forbes" article by another Amazonian, Tanuja Randery, who talked about, you know, some really interesting stats. And one of the stats that she shared was, you know, by 2030, less than 25% of tech specialists will be female, less than 25%. That's only a 6% growth from where we are in 2023, so in seven years. That's alarming. So we've really got to figure out what are the kinds of things that we're going to go do from an Amazon perspective to impact that? And one of the obvious starting points is showcasing tech careers to girls and young women, and talking openly about what a technology career looks like. So specifically at Amazon, we've got an AWS Git IT program that helps schools and educators bring in tech role models to show them what potential careers look like in tech. I think that's one great way that we can help build the pipeline, but once we get the pipeline, we also have to figure out how we don't let that pipeline leak. Meaning how do we keep women and, you know, young women on their tech career? And I think big part of that, John, is really talking about how hard it is, but it's also greater than you can ever imagine. And letting them see executives that are very authentic and will talk about, geez, you know, the challenges of COVID were a time of crisis and accelerated change, and here's what it meant to me personally and here's what we were able to solve professionally. These younger generations are all about social impact, they're about economic impact and they're about financial impact. And if we're not talking about all three of those, both from how AWS is leading from the front, but how its executives are also taking that into their personal lives, they're not going to want to go into tech. >> Yeah, and I think one of the things you mentioned there about getting people that get IT, good call out there, but also, Amazon's going to train 30 million people, put hundreds of millions of dollars into education. And not only are they making it easier to get in to get trained, but once you're in, even savvy folks that are in there still have to accelerate. And there's more ways to level up, more things are happening, but there's a big trend around people changing careers either in their late 20s, early 30s, or even those moments you talk about, where it's before and after, even later in the careers, 40s, 50s. Leaders like, well, good experience, good training, who were in another discipline who re-skilled. So you have, you know, more certifications coming in. So there's still other pivot points in the pipeline. It's not just down here. And that, I find that interesting. Are you seeing that same leadership opportunities coming in where someone can come into tech older? >> Absolutely. You know, we've got some amazing programs, like Amazon Returnity, that really focuses on how do we get other, you know, how do we get women that have taken some time off of work to get back into the workforce? And here's the other thing about switching careers. If I look back on my career, I started out as a civil engineer, heavy highway construction. And now I lead a sales team at the largest cloud company in the world. And there were, you know, twists and turns around there. I've always focused on how do we change and how do we continue to evolve? So it's not just focused on, you know, young women in the pipeline. It's focused on all gender and all diverse types throughout their career, and making sure that we're providing an inclusive environment for them to bring in their unique skillsets. >> Yeah, a building has good steel. It's well structured. Roads have great foundations. You know, you got the builder in you there. >> Yes. >> So I have to ask you, what's on your mind as a tech athlete, as an executive at AWS? You know, you got your huge team, big goals, the economy's got a little bit of a headwind, but still, cloud's transforming, edge is exploding. What's your outlook as you look out in the tech landscape these days and how are you thinking about it? What your plans? Can you share a little bit about what's on your mind? >> Sure. So, geez, there's so many trends that are top of mind right now. Everything from zero trust to artificial intelligence to security. We have more access to data now than ever before. So the opportunities are limitless when we think about how we can apply technology to solve some really difficult customer problems, right? Innovation sometimes feels like it's happening at a rapid pace. And I also say, you know, there are years when nothing happens, and then there's years when centuries happen. And I feel like we're kind of in those years where centuries are happening. Cloud technologies are refining sports as we know them now. There's a surge of innovation in smart energy. Everyone's supply chain is looking to transform. Custom silicon is going mainstream. And frankly, AWS's customers and partners are expecting us to come to them with a point of view on trends and on opportunities. And that's what differentiates us. (John laughs) That's what gives me goosebumps- >> I was just going to ask you that. Does that give you goosebumps? How could you not love technology with that excitement? I mean, AI, throw in AI, too. I just talked to Swami, who heads up the AI and database, and we just talked about the past 24 months, the change. And that is a century moment happening. The large language models, computer vision, more compute. Compute's booming than ever before. Who thought that was going to happen, is still happening? Massive change. So, I mean, if you're in tech, how can you not love tech? >> I know, even if you're not in tech, I think you've got to start to love tech because it gives you access to things you've never had before. And frankly, right, change is the only constant. And if you don't like change, you're going to like being irrelevant even less than you like change. So we've got to be nimble, we've got to adapt. And here's the great thing, once we figure it out, it changes all over again. And it's not something that's easy for any of us to operate. It's hard, right? It's hard learning new technology, it's hard figuring out what do I do next? But here's the secret. I think it's hard because we're doing it right. It's not hard because we're doing it wrong. It's just hard to be human and it's hard to figure out how we apply all this different technology in a way that positively impacts us, you know, economically, financially, environmentally and socially. >> And everyone's different, too. So you got to live those (mumbles). I want to get one more question in before we, my last question, which is about you and your impact. When you talk to your team, your sales, you got a large sales team, North America. And Tanuja, who you mentioned, is in EMEA, we're going to speak with her as well. You guys lead the front lines, helping customers, but also delivering the revenue to the company, which has been fantastic, by the way. So what's your message to the troops and the team out there? When you say, "Take that hill," like what is the motivational pitch, in a few sentences? What's the main North Star message in today's marketplace when you're doing that big team meeting? >> I don't know if it's just limited to a team meeting. I think this is a universal message, and the universal message for me is find your edge, whatever that may be. Whether it is the edge of what you know about artificial intelligence and neural networks or it's the edge of how do we migrate our applications to the cloud more quickly. Or it's the edge of, oh, my gosh, how do I be a better parent and still be great at work, right? Find your edge, and then sharpen it. Go to the brink of what you think is possible, and then force yourself to jump. Get involved. The world is run by the people that show up, professionally and personally. (John laughs) So show up and get started. >> Yeah as Steve Jobs once said, "The future "that everyone looks at was created "by people no smarter than you." And I love that quote. That's really there. Final question for you. I know we're tight on time, but I want to get this in. When you think about your impact on your company, AWS, and the industry, what's something you want people to remember? >> Oh, geez. I think what I want people to remember the most is it's not about what you've said, and this is a Maya Angelou quote. "It's not about what you've said to people "or what you've done, "it's about how you've made them feel." And we can all think back on leaders or we can all think back on personal moments in our lives where we felt like we belonged, where we felt like we did something amazing, where we felt loved. And those are the moments that sit with us for the rest of our lives. I want people to remember how they felt when they were part of something bigger. I want people to belong. It shouldn't be uncommon to talk about feelings at work. So I want people to feel. >> Rachel, thank you for your time. I know you're really busy and we stretched you a little bit there. Thank you so much for contributing to this wonderful day of great leaders sharing their stories. And you're an inspiration. Thanks for everything you do. We appreciate you. >> Thank you. And let's go do some more Women of the Cloud videos. >> We (laughs) got more coming. Bring those stories on. Back up the story truck. We're ready to go. Thanks so much. >> That's good. >> Thank you. >> Okay, this is theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. It's not just going to be March 8th. That's the big celebration day. It's going to be every quarter, more stories coming. Stay tuned at siliconangle.com and thecube.net here, with bringing all the stories. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

>>Hello everyone. Welcome to the Cubes Live here in Dallas, Texas. I'm John Ferer, host of the Cube, Three days of wall to wall coverage. Of course, we've got the three fabulous guests here, myself, Savannah, Peterson. S look wonderful. >>Thank you. Jong on. I, I feel lucky to play the part here with my 10 gallon hat. >>Dave Nicholson, who's the analyst uncovering all the Dell Supercomputing, hpe all the technology is changing the game. Dave, you look great. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks, John. I appreciate >>It. All right, so, so, so you look good. So we're in Dallas, Texas is a trade show conference. I don't know what you'd call this these days, but thousands of booths are here. What's the take here? Why supercomputing 22? What's the big deal? >>Well, the big deal is dramatic incremental progress in terms of supercomputing capability. So what this conference represents is the leading edge in what it can deliver to the world. We're talking about scale that is impossible to comprehend with the human brain, but you can toss out facts and figures like performance measured in ex flops, millions of CPU cores working together, thousands of kilowatts of power required to power these systems. And I think what makes this, what makes this show unique is that it's not just a bunch of vendors, but it's academia. It's PhD candidates coming and looking for companies that they might work with. So it's a very, very different vibe here. >>Savannah, we were talking last night before we were setting up our agenda for it to drill down on this week. And you know, you were, by the way, that looks great. I mean, I wish I had one. >>We'll get you one by the end of the show, >>John. Don't worry. You know, Texas is always big in Texas and that's the, the thing here, but Supercomputing seems like that had a lull for a while. Yeah, it seems like it's gonna explode and you get a chance to review the papers, take a look at it. You, you're a, I won't say closet hardware nerd, but that's your roots. >>Yeah, yeah. Very openly hardware nerd. And, and I'm excited because I, we saw a lot of hype around quantum and around AI five, 10 years ago, but we weren't seeing the application at scale and we also weren't seeing, quite frankly, the hardware wasn't ready to power these types of endeavors at scale. Whereas now, you know, we've got, we've got air cooling, we've got liquid cooling, we've got multiple GPU's. Dell was just showing me all eight of theirs that they put in their beautiful million dollar piece of equipment, which is extremely impressive for folks to run complex calculations. And, but what I'm excited about with all the, I love when we fuse business and academia together, I think that that doesn't happen very often. I've been impressed. I mean, when I walked in today, right away, I'm sure y'all can't see this at home just yet, but we'll try and give you a feel over the course of the next few days. This conference is huge. This >>Is, yeah, it is >>Way bigger than I was expecting, You know, a lot larger than where we just were in Detroit. And, and I love it because we've got the people that are literally inventing the calculations that will determine a lot of our future from sequencing our genome to powering our weather forecasting, as well as all of the companies that create the hardware and the software that's gonna actually support that. Those algorithms and >>Those, and, and the science and the engineering involved has just been going on since 1988. This conference, this trade show going on since 1988, which is, it, it passes the test of time and now the future with all the new use cases emerging from the compute and supercomputing architectures out there, it's from cradle to grave. If you're, if you're in this business, you, you're in school all the way through the industry, it doesn't seem to stop that, that university student side of it. I mean that whole student section here. So you don't see that very often in some of these tech shows, like from students to boardroom. >>Yeah. I actually brought the super computer from 1988 with me in my pocket. And I'm not sure that I'm even joking. I this may have as much processing power, certainly as much storage with one terabyte on board. I sprung for the one terabyte folks. But it is mind boggling the amount of compute power we're, we're talking about. When you dig below the surface, which we'll be doing in the coming days, you see things like leaping from P C I E, you know, gen four to gen five, and the increase that that gives us in, in terms of capabilities for plugging into the motherboard and accessing the CPU complex and on and on and on. But, but you know, something Savannah alluded to, we're talking about the leading edge of what is possible from a humanity perspective. 1%. And, and so I'd like to get into, you know, as we're we're talking to some of the experts that we'll get a chance to talk to, I'd like to get their view on what the future holds and whether we can simply grow through quantitative increases in compute power, or if the real promise is out there in the land of quantum computing, are we all sort of hanging our hats, our large 10 gallon hats? >>If that's yes. Our hats, if we're hanging our hats on that, that that's when truly we'll be able to tease insight out of chaos. I'd like to hear from some of the real experts on that subject. >>I'm glad you brought that up, cuz I'm personally pretty pumped about quantum computing, but I've seen it sit in this hype stage for quite a while and I'm ready for the application. So I'm curious to hear >>What our experts, That's an awesome, that would be, I think that would be an awesome bumper sticker. Frankly. Savannah, I'm pumped, I'm pumped about quantum computing. Who is this person? Who is this person? >>I wanna see it first. Did someone show me it? >>Yeah, yeah. 400 qubits I think was the latest IBM announcement, which, which means something. I'll pretend like I completely understand what it means. >>Tell us what that means, David. >>Well, well, so, so Savannah, let me man explain it to you. Yeah, >>Let's >>Hear it. So, so it's basically, it's, you know, in conventional computing you can either, you can either be on or off zero or one in quantum computing, you can be both, neither or all of the above. That's, that's, that's, that's the depth to which I can go. I >>Like that. That was actually a succinct, as humanly possible >>Really sounds like a Ponzi scheme to me. I, I'm not sure if I, >>Well, let's get into some of the thoughts that you guys have on some of the papers. We saw Savannah and Dave, your perspective on this whole next level kind of expansion with supercomputing and super cloud and super apps will do for this next gen. What use cases are kind of shining out of this, because, you know, it used to be you were limited by how much gear you had stacked up, how big the server could be, the supercomputer. Now you've got large scale cloud computing, you got the ability to have different subsystems like advances in networking. So you're seeing a new architectural, almost bigger. Super computing isn't just a machine, it's a collection of machines, It's a collection of Yeah. Of other stuff. What's your thoughts on these, this architecture and then the use cases that are gonna emerge that were not getable before? >>So in the past, you, you talk about, you know, 1988 and, and you know, let's say a decade ago, the race was to assemble enough compute power to be able to do things quickly enough to be practical. So we knew that if we applied software to hardware, we could get an answer to a problem because we were asking very, very specific questions. And how quickly we got the answer would determine whether it was practical to pursue it or not. So if something took a day instead of a month, okay, fantastic. But now we've reached this critical mass. You could argue when that happened, but definitely I think we're there where things like artificial intelligence and machine learning are the core of what we're doing. We're not just simply asking systems to deliver defined answers. We're asking them to learn from their experiences, starts getting a little spooky, and we're asking them to tease insights out in a way that we haven't figured out. >>So we're saying give us the insight. We're not telling the system specifically how to give us that insight. So I think that's, that's the fundamental difference that's the frontier, is, you know, you're gonna hear a lot about AI and ml and then if you retreat back a bit from Supercomputing, you're in the realm of high performance computing, which is sort of junior version of supercomputing. It's instead of the billion dollar system, it's the system that, you know, schlubs like, like, like, like Facebook or AWS might be able to afford, you know, maybe a hundred million dollars for a system casual, just, just sort of casual kind of thing next to the coffee table in the living room. But I think that's really gonna be the talk. So that's a huge tent when you talk about AI and ml. Yeah, >>I I, I totally agree. We're having some of the conversations that we've had for a long time about AI and bias. I saw a lot of the papers were looking at that. I think that's what's gonna be really interesting to me, what's most exciting about this is how are we pulling together all of this on a global scale. So I'm excited to see how supercomputing impacts climate change, our ability to monitor environmental conditions around the globe and different governments and bodies can all combine. And all of this information can be going into a central brain and learning from it and figuring out how we can make the world a better place. We're learning about the body. There's a lot of people doing molecular biology and sequencing of the genome here. We've got, there's, there's, It's just, it's very, I I don't think a lot of people realize that supercomputing pretty much touches every aspect of our >>Lives. I mean, we've had it, we've had it for a while. I think cloud computing took a lot of the attention, given that that brought in massive capabilities, a lot of agility. And I think what's interesting here at this show, if you look at, you know, what's going on from the guess, like I said, from the dorm room to the boardroom, everyone's here, but you look at what's actually going on above the hardware, CNCF is here. They have a booth, the whole cloud native software business. It's gonna be interesting to see how the software business takes advantage of totally. How these architectures, because let's face it, I've never heard a developer pointer say, I wanna run on slower hardware. So no one wants that. So now if you abstract away the hardware, as we know with, with cloud computing and DevOps cloud on premises and Edge, David, this is like, this is again, nirvana for the industry because you want, it's an exciting thing, the fastest possible compute system for the software. >>Yeah, yeah. >>I I, at the end of the day, that's what we're talking >>About. So I asked, I asked the, the gift question to my Wharton students this morning on a call, and I, you know, I asked specifically if, if I could give you something that was the result of super computing's amazing nature, what would it be? Would it be personalized therapeutics in healthcare? Would it be something related to climate? Being able to figure out exactly what we can do. There's a whole range of possibilities. And what's interesting is >>What were some of the answers? >>So, so, so a lot of the answers, a lot of the answers came down to, to two categories and it was really, it was healthcare and climate. Yeah. A lot of, a lot of understanding and of course, and of course a lot of jokes about how eventually supercomputers will determine that. The problem is people, >>It's people. Yeah, no. So I knew you were headed there, >>But >>Don't people just want custom jeans? Yeah. >>Or, well, so one of the, one of the good ones though was, >>Was also that >>While we're >>Here, a person from a company who shall not be named said, oh, advertising, it was the, it was the what if you could predict with a high degree of certainty that when you sent someone an email saying, Hey, do you wanna buy this? They would say, Well, yeah, I do. Dramatically lowering the cost of acquisition for an individual customer as an example. Those are the kinds of breakthroughs that will transform how we live. Because all of a sudden, industries are completely disrupted, disrupted, not necessarily directly related to supercomputing, but you think about automating the entire fleet of, of, of trucks in, in North America. What does that do to people who currently drive those trucks? Yeah, so there are, there are societal questions at hand that I don't necessarily know the academics are, are, are considering when they're thinking what's possible. >>Well, I think, I think the point about the ad thing brings up the whole cultural shift that's going on from the old generation of, Hey, let's use our best minds in the industry to figure out how to place an ad at the right place in the right pixel, at the right time. Versus solving real problems like climate change our, you know, culture and society and get us getting along as a country and world water sustainability fires in California. Yeah, I mean, come on. >>There's a lot. So I, I gotta say, I was curious when you were playing with your pocket computer there and talking about the terabyte that you have inside. So back in 1988 when Supercomputing started, the first show was in Orlando. It was actually the same four days that we're here right now. I was born in 1988 if we're just talking about how great 1988 is. And so I guess I, >>I was born, So were we Savannah? So were we >>The era of, I think I was in third grade at that time. >>We won't tell, we won't say what you told me earlier about 1988 for you. But that said, so 1988 was when Steve Jobs released the next computer. He was out of Apple at that time. Yeah, that's right. >>Eight >>Megabytes of Ram. >>It's called the Cube. I think >>It's respectable. That's all it was called. It was, it was, it was, it was the cube, which is pretty, pretty exciting. But when we were looking at, yeah, on the supercomputing side, your phone would've been about, is a capable, >>So where will we be in 20 years? It's amazing >>What we gonna, >>Will our holograms be here instead of us physically sitting, sitting at the table? I don't know. >>Well, it's gonna be very interesting to see how the global ecosystem evolves. It used to be very nationalistic culture with computing. I think, I think we're gonna see global, you know, flattening of culture relative to computing. I think space will be a, a massive hopeful, massive discussion. I think software and automation will be at levels we don't even see. So I think software, to me, I'm looking at, that's the enablement of this supercomputing show. In terms of the next five years, what are they gonna do to enable more faster intelligent horsepower? And, and what does that look like? Is it, it used to be simple processor, more processors, more threads, multicores, and then stuff around it. I think this is where I think it's gonna shift to more network computing, network processing, edge latency, physics is involved. I mean, every, everything you can squeeze out of the physics will be Yeah. Interesting to watch. Well, when >>We, when we, when we peel back the cover on the actual pieces of hardware that are driving this revolution, parallelizing, you know, of workloads is critical to this. It's what super computing consists of. There's no such thing as a supercomputer sitting by itself on a table. Even the million dollar system from Dell, which is crazy when you hear Dell and million dollar system. >>And it's still there too, >>Right? Just, just hanging out. Yeah. But, but it's all about the interconnect. When you want to take advantage of parallel processing, you have to have software that can leverage all of the resources and connectivity becomes increasingly important. I think that's gonna be a thread that we're gonna see throughout the next few days with the, with the, you know, the motherboards, for lack of a lack of a better term, allowing faster access to memory, faster access to cpu, gpu, dpu, networking, storage devices, plugging in those all work together. But increasingly it's that connectivity layer that's critically important. Questions of InfiniBand versus ethernet. Our DMA over converged ethernet as an example, a lot of these architectural decisions are gonna be based on power cooling, dead city. So lot of details behind the scenes to make the magic happen. I >>Think the power is gonna be, you know, thinking 20 years out, hopefully everything here is powered sustainably 20 years from now because power pull, I mean these, the more exciting things going on in your supercomputer. The power suck is massive. That when we were talking to Dell, they were saying that's one of the biggest problems, >>Concerns, that's gonna their customers and that's gonna play into sustainability. So a lot of great guests, we got folks from Dell and the industry, a lot of the manufacturers, a lot of the hardware software experts gonna come on and share what's going on. You know, we did a, we did a post why hardware matters a few months ago, Dave. Everyone's like, well it does now more than ever. So we're gonna get into it here at Supercomputing 22, where the hardware matters. Faster power, as we say for the applications. Mr. Cube, moving back with more live coverage. Stay with us back.

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Organizations have considerable room to improve their performance without making expensive changes to their talent, their structure, or their fundamental business model. You don't need a slew of consultants to tell you what to do. You already know. What you need is to immediately ratchet up expectations, energy, urgency, and intensity. You have to fight mediocrity every step of the way. Amp it up and the results will follow. This is the fundamental premise of a hard-hitting new book written by Frank Slootman, CEO of Snowflake, and published earlier this year. It's called "Amp It Up, Leading for Hypergrowth "by Raising Expectations, Increasing Urgency, "and Elevating Intensity." Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. At Snowflake Summit last month, I was asked to interview Frank on stage about his new book. I've read it several times. And if you haven't read it, you should. Even if you have read it, in this Breaking Analysis, we'll dig deeper into the book and share some clarifying insights and nuances directly from Slootman himself from my one-on-one conversation with him. My first question to Slootman was why do you write this book? Okay, it's kind of a common throwaway question. And how the heck did you find time to do it? It's fairly well-known that a few years ago, Slootman put up a post on LinkedIn with the title Amp It Up. It generated so much buzz and so many requests for Frank's time that he decided that the best way to efficiently scale and share his thoughts on how to create high-performing companies and organizations was to publish a book. Now, he wrote the book during the pandemic. And I joked that they must not have Netflix in Montana where he resides. In a pretty funny moment, he said that writing the book was easier than promoting it. Take a listen. >> Denise, our CMO, you know, she just made sure that this process wasn't going to. It was more work for me to promote this book with all these damn podcasts and other crap, than actually writing the book, you know. And after a while, I was like I'm not doing another podcast. >> Now, the book gives a lot of interesting background information on Slootman's career and what he learned at various companies that he led and participated in. Now, I'm not going to go into most of that today, which is why you should read the book yourself. But Slootman, he's become somewhat of a business hero to many people, myself included. Leaders like Frank, Scott McNealy, Jayshree Ullal, and my old boss, Pat McGovern at IDG, have inspired me over the years. And each has applied his or her own approach to building cultures and companies. Now, when Slootman first took over the reins at Snowflake, I published a Breaking Analysis talking about Snowflake and what we could expect from the company now that Slootman and CFO Mike Scarpelli were back together. In that post, buried toward the end, I referenced the playbook that Frank used at Data Domain and ServiceNow, two companies that I followed quite closely as an analyst, and how it would be applied at Snowflake, that playbook if you will. Frank reached out to me afterwards and said something to the effect of, "I don't use playbooks. "I am a situational leader. "Playbooks, you know, they work in football games. "But in the military, they teach you "situational leadership." Pretty interesting learning moment for me. So I asked Frank on the stage about this. Here's what he said. >> The older you get, the more experience that you have, the more you become a prisoner of your own background because you sort of think in terms of what you know as opposed to, you know, getting outside of what you know and trying to sort of look at things like a five-year-old that has never seen this before. And then how would you, you know, deal with it? And I really try to force myself into I've never seen this before and how do I think about it? Because at least they're very different, you know, interpretations. And be open-minded, just really avoid that rinse and repeat mentality. And you know, I've brought people in from who have worked with me before. Some of them come with me from company to company. And they were falling prey to, you know, rinse and repeat. I would just literally go like that's not what we want. >> So think about that for a moment. I mean, imagine coming in to lead a new company and forcing yourself and your people to forget what they know that works and has worked in the past, put that aside and assess the current situation with an open mind, essentially start over. Now, that doesn't mean you don't apply what has worked in the past. Slootman talked to me about bringing back Scarpelli and the synergistic relationship that they have and how they build cultures and the no BS and hard truth mentality they bring to companies. But he bristles when people ask him, "What type of CEO are you?" He says, "Do we have to put a label on it? "It really depends on the situation." Now, one of the other really hard-hitting parts of the book was the way Frank deals with who to keep and who to let go. He uses the Volkswagen tagline of drivers wanted. He says in his book, in companies there are passengers and there are drivers, and we want drivers. He said, "You have to figure out really quickly "who the drivers are and basically throw the wrong people "off the bus, keep the right people, bring in new people "that fit the culture and put them "in the right seats on the bus." Now, these are not easy decisions to make. But as it pertains to getting rid of people, I'm reminded of the movie "Moneyball." Art Howe, the manager of the Oakland As, he refused to play Scott Hatteberg at first base. So the GM, Billy Bean played by Brad Pitt says to Peter Brand who was played by Jonah Hill, "You have to fire Carlos Pena." Don't learn how to fire people. Billy Bean says, "Just keep it quick. "Tell him he's been traded and that's it." So I asked Frank, "Okay, I get it. "Like the movie, when you have the wrong person "on the bus, you just have to make the decision, "be straightforward, and do it." But I asked him, "What if you're on the fence? "What if you're not completely sure if this person "is a driver or a passenger, if he or she "should be on the bus or not on the bus? "How do you handle that?" Listen to what he said. >> I have a very simple way to break ties. And when there's doubt, there's no doubt, okay? >> When there's doubt, there's no doubt. Slootman's philosophy is you have to be emphatic and have high conviction. You know, back to the baseball analogy, if you're thinking about taking the pitcher out of the game, take 'em out. Confrontation is the single hardest thing in business according to Slootman but you have to be intellectually honest and do what's best for the organization, period. Okay, so wow, that may sound harsh but that's how Slootman approaches it, very Belichickian if you will. But how can you amp it up on a daily basis? What's the approach that Slootman takes? We got into this conversation with a discussion about MBOs, management by objective. Slootman in his book says he's killed MBOs at every company he's led. And I asked him to explain why. His rationale was that individual MBOs invariably end up in a discussion about relief of the MBO if the person is not hitting his or her targets. And that detracts from the organizational alignment. He said at Snowflake everyone gets paid the same way, from the execs on down. It's a key way he creates focus and energy in an organization, by creating alignment, urgency, and putting more resources into the most important things. This is especially hard, Slootman says, as the organization gets bigger. But if you do approach it this way, everything gets easier. The cadence changes, the tempo accelerates, and it works. Now, and to emphasize that point, he said the following. Play the clip. >> Every meeting that you have, every email, every encounter in the hallway, whatever it is, is an opportunity to amp things up. That's why I use that title. But do you take that opportunity? >> And according to Slootman, if you don't take that opportunity, if you're not in the moment, amping it up, then you're thinking about your golf game or the tennis match that's going on this weekend or being out on your boat. And to the point, this approach is not for everyone. You're either built for it or you're not. But if you can bring people into the organization that can handle this type of dynamic, it creates energy. It becomes fun. Everything moves faster. The conversations are exciting. They're inspiring. And it becomes addictive. Now let's talk about priorities. I said to Frank that for me anyway, his book was an uncomfortable read. And he was somewhat surprised by that. "Really," he said. I said, "Yeah. "I mean, it was an easy read but uncomfortable "because over my career, I've managed thousands of people, "not tens of thousands but thousands, "enough to have to take this stuff very seriously." And I found myself throughout the book, oh, you know, on the one hand saying to myself, "Oh, I got that right, good job, Dave." And then other times, I was thinking to myself, "Oh wow, I probably need to rethink that. "I need to amp it up on that front." And the point is to Frank's leadership philosophy, there's no one correct way to approach all situations. You have to figure it out for yourself. But the one thing in the book that I found the hardest was Slootman challenged the reader. If you had to drop everything and focus on one thing, just one thing, for the rest of the year, what would that one thing be? Think about that for a moment. Were you able to come up with that one thing? What would happen to all the other things on your priority list? Are they all necessary? If so, how would you delegate those? Do you have someone in your organization who can take those off your plate? What would happen if you only focused on that one thing? These are hard questions. But Slootman really forces you to think about them and do that mental exercise. Look at Frank's body language in this screenshot. Imagine going into a management meeting with Frank and being prepared to share all the things you're working on that you're so proud of and all the priorities you have for the coming year. Listen to Frank in this clip and tell me it doesn't really make you think. >> I've been in, you know, on other boards and stuff. And I got a PowerPoint back from the CEO and there's like 15 things. They're our priorities for the year. I'm like you got 15, you got none, right? It's like you just can't decide, you know, what's important. So I'll tell you everything because I just can't figure out. And the thing is it's very hard to just say one thing. But it's really the mental exercise that matters. >> Going through that mental exercise is really important according to Slootman. Let's have a conversation about what really matters at this point in time. Why does it need to happen? And does it take priority over other things? Slootman says you have to pull apart the hairball and drive extraordinary clarity. You could be wrong, he says. And he admits he's been wrong on many things before. He, like everyone, is fearful of being wrong. But if you don't have the conversation according to Slootman, you're already defeated. And one of the most important things Slootman emphasizes in the book is execution. He said that's one of the reasons he wrote "Amp It Up." In our discussion, he referenced Pat Gelsinger, his former boss, who bought Data Domain when he was working for Joe Tucci at EMC. Listen to Frank describe the interaction with Gelsinger. >> Well, one of my prior bosses, you know, Pat Gelsinger, when they acquired Data Domain through EMC, Pat was CEO of Intel. And he quoted Andy Grove as saying, 'cause he was Intel for a long time when he was younger man. And he said no strategy is better than its execution, which if I find one of the most brilliant things. >> Now, before you go changing your strategy, says Slootman, you have to eliminate execution as a potential point of failure. All too often, he says, Silicon Valley wants to change strategy without really understanding whether the execution is right. All too often companies don't consider that maybe the product isn't that great. They will frequently, for example, make a change to sales leadership without questioning whether or not there's a product fit. According to Slootman, you have to drive hardcore intellectual honesty. And as uncomfortable as that may be, it's incredibly important and powerful. Okay, one of the other contrarian points in the book was whether or not to have a customer success department. Slootman says this became really fashionable in Silicon Valley with the SaaS craze. Everyone was following and pattern matching the lead of salesforce.com. He says he's eliminated the customer service department at every company he's led which had a customer success department. Listen to Frank Slootman in his own words talk about the customer success department. >> I view the whole company as a customer success function. Okay, I'm customer success, you know. I said it in my presentation yesterday. We're a customer-first organization. I don't need a department. >> Now, he went on to say that sales owns the commercial relationship with the customer. Engineering owns the technical relationship. And oh, by the way, he always puts support inside of the engineering department because engineering has to back up support. And rather than having a separate department for customer success, he focuses on making sure that the existing departments are functioning properly. Slootman also has always been big on net promoter score, NPS. And Snowflake's is very high at 72. And according to Slootman, it's not just the product. It's the people that drive that type of loyalty. Now, Slootman stresses amping up the big things and even the little things too. He told a story about someone who came into his office to ask his opinion about a tee shirt. And he turned it around on her and said, "Well, what do you think?" And she said, "Well, it's okay." So Frank made the point by flipping the situation. Why are you coming to me with something that's just okay? If we're going to do something, let's do it. Let's do it all out. Let's do it right and get excited about it, not just check the box and get something off your desk. Amp it up, all aspects of our business. Listen to Slootman talk about Steve Jobs and the relevance of demanding excellence and shunning mediocrity. >> He was incredibly intolerant of anything that he didn't think of as great. You know, he was immediately done with it and with the person. You know, I'm not that aggressive, you know, in that way. I'm a little bit nicer, you know, about it. But I still, you know, I don't want to give into expediency and mediocrity. I just don't, I'm just going to fight it, you know, every step of the way. >> Now, that story was about a little thing like some swag. But Slootman talked about some big things too. And one of the major ways Snowflake was making big, sweeping changes to amp up its business was reorganizing its go-to-market around industries like financial services, media, and healthcare. Here's some ETR data that shows Snowflake's net score or spending momentum for key industry segments over time. The red dotted line at 40% is an indicator of highly elevated spending momentum. And you can see for the key areas shown, Snowflake is well above that level. And we cut this data where responses were greater, the response numbers were greater than 15. So not huge ends but large enough to have meaning. Most were in the 20s. Now, it's relatively uncommon to see a company that's having the success of Snowflake make this kind of non-trivial change in the middle of steep S-curve growth. Why did they make this move? Well, I think it's because Snowflake realizes that its data cloud is going to increasingly have industry diversity and unique value by industry, that ecosystems and data marketplaces are forming around industries. So the more industry affinity Snowflake can create, the stronger its moat will be. It also aligns with how the largest and most prominent global system integrators, global SIs, go to market. This is important because as companies are transforming, they are radically changing their data architecture, how they think about data, how they approach data as a competitive advantage, and they're looking at data as specifically a monetization opportunity. So having industry expertise and knowledge and aligning with those customer objectives is going to serve Snowflake and its ecosystems well in my view. Slootman even said he joined the board of Instacart not because he needed another board seat but because he wanted to get out of his comfort zone and expose himself to other industries as a way to learn. So look, we're just barely scratching the surface of Slootman's book and I've pulled some highlights from our conversation. There's so much more that I can share just even from our conversation. And I will as the opportunity arises. But for now, I'll just give you the kind of bumper sticker of "Amp It Up." Raise your standards by taking every opportunity, every interaction, to increase your intensity. Get your people aligned and moving in the same direction. If it's the wrong direction, figure it out and course correct quickly. Prioritize and sharpen your focus on things that will really make a difference. If you do these things and increase the urgency in your organization, you'll naturally pick up the pace and accelerate your company. Do these things and you'll be able to transform, better identify adjacent opportunities and go attack them, and create a lasting and meaningful experience for your employees, customers, and partners. Okay, that's it for today. Thanks for watching. And thank you to Alex Myerson who's on production and he manages the podcast for Breaking Analysis. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social and in our newsletters. And Rob Hove is our EIC over at Silicon Angle who does some wonderful and tremendous editing. Thank you all. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @dvellante or comment on my LinkedIn posts. And please do check out etr.ai for the best survey data in enterprise tech. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. Be well. And we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (upbeat music)

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. This is the cube coverage here at Remar. Amazon Remar stands for machine learning, automation, robotics, and space. And we're here for a robotics. Cool segments. We have Monia on the desk. We'll get Caitlin Caitlin clay bar head. Ofri welcome to the cube and follow Virginian, founder and CEO of Moxi. Thanks for coming on and thanks for bringing this special third guest. Thank you for helping >>Us. >>This is exciting. Okay. So first of all, we'll get into the company a second, but what do we, what is this? What what's going on? This is amazing. >>Go. This is Moxi. This is our first product out of embodied and it is a social, emotional learning AI friend for children, ages five to 10 currently. >>That's what he, he or she likes me. Yes. Staring at me right now. I'm a child. Thank he. Nice to see you. >>And it has all sorts of content and in multi back and forth interaction. Yeah. And it's, it's our first pass at doing socially. >>Okay. So this product is shipping. >>It is shipping. Yeah. Available. It is available. We've been out for over a year now shipping for over a year now. >>Okay. Oh man. It just makes me feel good. It must be a big seller across all use cases. So what's the number one thing you guys getting attention on right now from Moxi besides the cool factor, the tech what's going on? >>Well, I think we have received a lot of interest from many people because Mo Mox is captured the imagination of people in terms of what is possible in the future. And really the Genesis of it is that I've been doing robotics for 20 years and sort of a little bit disappointed with what we have accomplished in robotics, because there's so much where we can do we have dreamt about robots for centuries. But what we were dreaming about was not robotic vacuum cleaners, which guilty as charged. I was part, I was a CTO at iRobot and we wanna see robots that can actually can really care for us from childhood to retirement. And Moxi represents the AI technology we have developed. That's gonna make that next wave of robotics to flourish. >>You must be really excited because I think right now, one of the main, my main walkaway themes so far from this show is technology's not the blocker anymore. It's the people human side of it, where it used to be technology slow. And robotics has been that area where we've seen great innovation, but where's that needle moving moment coming. I think now with cloud and all the things happening seems to be the moment. >>I think we are seeing exponential growth in technology. That's gonna enable robots to become unreal. As an example, Moxi uses very advanced, conversational engine where you literally can talk to Moxi about anything you want. So it can be a real companion. It will understand, you understand your needs and emotions and start working on social, emotional development for children. This technology, which are as transformer models, deep neural networks that are trained on millions of conversation. We are seeing every year, 10 X improvement to this. So I predict in the next two to three years, you will be able to have a conversation with Moxi. That's like having a subject expert matter expert in every single subject. Yeah. >>Yeah. That's like getting a cube interview like instantly, Hey, Moxie, what's the information. So I could see the tie in and it's just my mind's blown, I guess in the sense of the use cases are wide. You get wide ranging use cases, elderly care, child development, loneliness, all kinds of social, emotional factors. >>Yeah. We've built a really incredible platform that we're hoping to expand out beyond kids. I mean, kids is kind of our, this is our first product, but Moxi the fact that we have what we call our social X platform and the tools where you can create content and Moxi can have conversations about any number of things it's >>So share. What's what technology is under the covers here with the human robotic interface kind of dynamic, you got software, you got hardware, you're gonna have code. You got the neural networks. It's kind of the confluence of a lot of different vectors coming together. What's the secret sauce. >>So that's what we call our social X platform. And really it you're right. Everything has to work in concert and at a price point that's affordable for people. So Moxie's able to actually track people in the real world and we are able to fuse people's speech. And you know, we do facial recognition for the specific child. So Moxie knows its mentor and personalize the interaction over time. >>Well, she's talking to me or he is a, she is a gender neutral robot, I guess, like whatever I want it to be, I guess >>We've left it intentionally gender neutral, but kids kind of yeah. Prescribe whatever gender they feel connected. >>Yes. Good, good. You enables the user. Yes. Really? The key what's what's been the biggest use case that you didn't think would be coming to the table with Moxi anything surprise you, you must get a lot of reactions. >>Yeah. So you covered some of the ones we are focused on. We are particularly focused on mental health from childhood to retirement and aging gracefully. After we launched Moxi we had a TikTok video that went crazy viral. We got 40 million views on this. And that led to a lot of interest from celebrities. Yeah. >>From some of the most luxury hotel chains that have reached out to us and they want to use the technology in Moxi to develop a personal Butler for every guest room, as an example, that's one example, right? So we have one of the largest violence intervention program in the us that caters to children that have unfortunately been through very traumatic experiences in their life and want to use Moxi as a way to provide therapy to these children. Yeah. Yeah. So the use cases are very broad. We even have people from different countries that were very interested in using Moxi for, for instance, teaching a Chinese child, how to speak English, immersively by interacting with Moxi, which is the best way to learn a different language. So I think the implications of this are paramount. Yeah. We will even see in contact centers, centers, customer support centers, and so on will use technology like this for having them empathetic AI that's actually taking care of your customer service complaints rather than a robotic way of >>Interacting with. I was just on, on earlier with an interview here with Deloitte and AWS on conversational AI and trust was a big conversation. Yes. Trust and, and ethics. So you got ethics, trust bias, all these things are of factors. You got human interaction from a physical and then software standpoint. What, what other hard problems are in here that you guys are solving? Come on. This is incredible because these are hard problems. >>Yes they are. And one of them is the famous cocktail party problem. And Palo being our fearless CEO really drove the team to get Moxi to this state where Moxie's able to interact with people, even in this environment, which is pretty incredible and like lock in and have a back and forth conversation. It's very exciting. >>So Moxi how do you feel you feeling good? What's the biggest challenge you've had here? Audio. Congratulations. That's really impressive. I'm so impressed. And again, it it's again, not to oversimplify it. There's a lot of hard problems going on here that are, that are being solved. >>Absolutely. There's >>Human interaction. You get a physical device. >>Exactly. It's a physical device. And like how we have designed Moxi down to the color of Moxie's eyes, the color of the shell, all of that has taken a lot of iteration to get to a point where we really have a robot that people feel like they can trust, feel like they can connect with. And, >>And even something to add to this is that we have many robots that cost tens of thousands of dollars, because it's very easy to keep adding more sensors and more compute power. And so on. You end up with robots that cost 10, 20, $30,000. One of the goals we set at the outset was we want to make Moxi as, as affordable as an iPhone. So, and Moxi is right. The price point of Moxi is same as owning an iPhone. You pay about a thousand dollars up front plus a monthly subscription fee. And that not >>The Ram cap upgrade the Ram on that too. >>We have very limited brand. >>We have please. Very, >>If you can convince it >>IPhone, I can always get the 2 56 or the one terabyte, >>Right? No, it, it really actually makes it much harder to develop technology that's affordable >>For yeah. Yeah, totally. >>And we wanted to do that because we wanted to have impact. >>So are you shipping now or are you on allocation? I can imagine that demand is off the >>Charts. Definitely. We sold out last year when we launched the product. Now we are resolving supply chain issues that everyone is suffering from due to COVID and this year we'll have better ability to meet demand. >>So this is people want it. There's a lot of demand. >>Right? >>You guys a smile having fun. Yes. Right. All right. So now talking about the product, take me through the product. What's the challenges here. Obviously the animation in the camera. I see the camera. I see some lights there at heart speaker. What would Moxi be doing if wasn't, if we weren't here, if we were at home. >>So as in interacting with a child at home, we've seen a lot of people actually put Moxy on the floor and kids will like lay down and interact with Moxy. And there are a lot of different activities right now it's doing a little jukebox dance, but there are more kind of therapy or mental health and, and social, emotional learning, driven content. Like children can read a book with Moxi and we use the screen, not just to show that great, cute facial expression and the eye contact, but we also can show icons and some additional information. And so in this way, we've created a very new type of interface for a machine, with a child, >>Not to get all product visionary and roadmap oriented here. But I can imagine interfacing out to a third party screens in the future where this is gonna stay compact and affordable. And if I'm interacting and I want to display a visual, is that something you guys are guys going beyond that you're still focused on the product here? So what's some of the vision you have >>There definitely. There will be versions of our social X platform, finding their way into what we may call the metaverse, where you could have hyper realistic models of humans driven by our AI to interact with you the way you and I are interacting, but embodiment where the name of the companies derive from is actually super important in the kind of things we are doing with mental health and social emotional development. Because the physical co-presence of an entity like this interacts with our brains in a different way than when we do on extreme. So there is gonna be both versions for some applications will be virtual. Other applications will be >>Physical. Well, that's a wait and see, see what happens, sell out the next batch inventory where the product yeah. >>And the embodiment. It does. It just, it hits a little different, you know, kids yeah. Will actually physically tuck Moxi in at night. There's there's something there >>That's, there's something there tangible, I think it's great. Home run. I mean, just having the response, the visual response, the facial makes an impact instantly. >>Absolutely. >>So you can extend that out, probably make it more immersive, whether it's metaverse or within your home. >>Yeah. And now with AR VR goggles, where you get this 3d immersive experience, it may get closer to the impact we can have with an embodied agency. So the lines are blurring obviously between the physical and the digital. >>Well, great to have you guys on. Thanks for bringing the, the, the Moxi on Moxi to come on. This event kind of symbolizes this revolution. We're seeing the robotics industrial shift space is a good example of one. This is another machine learning, the software business cloud, all great, you know, force multipliers to enable value creation. Where do you guys see this going Remar as this whole intersection, you got a lot of different disciplines coming together. We're seeing here in the cube and we're talking to folks that we think it's gonna be a needle moving moment for the, for the industrial era. What do you guys take on this? >>Absolutely. I mean, >>Robotics has always been right around the corner, but with the advances of technology in the last 10 years or so, this is now really possible and it's growing at exponential rates. So the future is exciting. Obviously we have to guide it. You talked about ethics. So being ethical about it, being mindful about how we want to deploy this technologies to actually have positive impact on us. For instance, we do not believe in replacing a human labor or the need for humans, but we believe in augmenting humans, right. And technology today can actually do that. Yeah. >>Know that whole argument's been debunked for decade, the whole bank teller. Oh, they're gonna put tellers outta business. No, there's more tellers now than ever before. So I think technology is gonna create much greater aperture of, of opportunities. And I think the question I'd love to get, get you guys to share is this is gonna wake up a lot of generational, young talent to come into the workforce, cuz the problems are there. It's not a technology. It's a human mind, creative problem. Now it's more of, you know, you're gonna see robotics probably being accelerated even more now than it is. It's still growing. Yeah. Young kids love robotics. >>I mean, it's incredible to see the breadth of applications of robotics at, at this event specifically and just, I don't know, getting into it. I mean, I haven't been in it as long as you pow, but five, 10 years ago, you wouldn't have seen, I mean, this just wouldn't be possible. >>The robotics clubs are more popular now in high, most high schools in the United States than some sports there's a and a B team and people get cut from the B team. There's so much demand. There's so much excitement cuz it's building. If you get your hands on and it's got software, it's got coding. Absolutely. It's got building. >>Absolutely. And you are, you are creating, there are figures like Steve jobs, Jeff Bezos, LAN Musk that are inspiring children to go into stem education and really build a career in that area, which is much more exciting than the, the opposite. >>Great. What do you guys think about re Mars this year? What's your walk away? What's the big story here besides Moxi cuz we recovered that right now. What's what's the, what's the trend. What's the high level. What's the most important story people should pay attention to? >>I think we're just gonna see robotics or machine learning and we're just gonna see it in almost every application and it's going to be, the word was ambient was being used during the keynote. And I think that's really true. Ambient intelligence, like having robots in your everyday life as well as just AI in your everyday life. And it's gonna feel seamless. >>It's pretty impressive. Paul, what's your take on the, the >>Big story? I would say one of the trends we are seeing at even here at AWS, Amazon re remarks is making machines more human. Yeah. Even Astro the product that was launched last September, I believe by Amazon is adding a lot of facial affect emotions and understanding of humans for decades. We have been bound to using keyboards and touch screens and yeah. Clicks here and there. And it's gonna change it's time for machines to learn, to understand us. Yeah. And that is gonna be a trend that we will see even in the self self-driving cars, which are not gonna have a steering wheel, but the machine will understand our mood and drive accordingly. >>Yeah. And you know, Apollo, you guys are doing Caitlin your work here. I think highlights what I'm seeing as it's a future theme. That's positive. It has a vibe of like, we need a good to come. You know, it's like, when's the good gonna happen? And I think, >>I think we're ready for that. >>The theme's here though. They're very positive forward thinking practical engineered, you know, and solving problems, right? Real problems. The climate change and the keynote. We talking about healthcare and, and having things be solved this way. This is the new, the new normal, it's a human problem now to solve >>It is. And I think we are all, all of us are a bit more aware of that after the pandemic, because pan the pandemic was hard on everyone in different ways and we are more mindful of the positive. Right? We are looking for something positive and hopefully yeah. Coming out of the pandemic, now we have a global crisis, but these, these technologies will transform life and the world in a positive way. Yeah. >>You guys doing a great job. Congratulations on the success of >>Moxi. Thank >>You. Great work. Thanks for sharing that. Thank you. I wanna let more platform maybe next time. We'll have a conversation. We'll talk about the platform in tric season, then detail. So, but thanks for coming on the queue. Appreciate the problem. >>Thank you. Our pleasure. Okay. >>It's the Cube's coverage here in Las Vegas for Amazon re Mars. I'm John furrier. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break.

>>Yeah, yeah. Welcome to the Cubes Presentation. Women in Global event Celebrating International Women's Day It's amazing showcase of great people and entrepreneurs, executives, really serious women in the industry, in the countries all around the world sharing their stories on International Women's Day. I'm your host of the great story here, an entrepreneur founder and C e 03 riders. Tanya A. I from New Zealand from all the way down under. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >>Thanks for having me. >>I love your story. Let's stop. Let's start by. Just sit at the table about your story. Where your background from How you got into the business. Take us through quickly. That origination story. >>Sure. Um, look, I come from a low socio economic area. I grew up a new Plymouth. Um, and we didn't really have a lot of money. My mother did struggle to put food and milk on the table. And so, uh, what we did do, though. Although we didn't have money, we have the ability to drink. And so we would every day I remember as a child dream about what it would be like to one day have enough milk and bread, have enough money to be able to buy a car or even catch the bus. And so what we did was we dream about how I could achieve that. Um And so what I did was I got educated because we knew that if I got educated, then that would enable me to get a job and become financially independent. Um, but one of the key things she also made me promise Was that not only what I get educated and have enough money, um, to support myself. But then once I did that that I would give back their knowledge and understanding so that I could strength and others. >>I love this. I love the story again. Entrepreneurship is a lot like picking yourself up. Failure is part of the process. You got a grind. You got to do the hard work. And the idea is to make it happen. You've done that? You've got a building. The business is hard. Never mind for doing it as a woman as well. And you're conditions. What a dream. You found your dream. What's it like? Right now? >>It's hard work I'm not gonna do. I know that around the world of runs excited and they said, I'm going to leave my job and you know, I've had enough. And now I'm gonna stand up my own business. We've been working on my eye for almost three years now. Running standing up a business and then running it successfully once you've started up is actually a lot harder than what people think, especially being a woman as well. And a Maori, which is essentially an indigenous person of New Zealand. Um, it is a little bit harder to do that, especially when when you choose the industry to do that and which is technology, you don't have a lot of other woman. Um, there are some women coming through from indigenous background, uh, paved the way for us, but there's not a lot of us around, and so it does make it a lot more tricky. But I had a dream, and I had a vision that I was going to be able to give back what I had learned about business and about money to help others. So uh, was where it was going to be. >>Well, it certainly inspiration for many. I love the success story and entrepreneurship hard enough as it is, like I said. But being a woman and even harder, what are some examples can you give when you were coming through? Because you've got a really kind of push through and break down walls to get things done in any startup and with the corporate world with his biases. And there's also, um, people's preconceived mindset of who's who should be in a position, what founders are what entrepreneurship is. What was it like? Can you give some examples of situations that you broke through? >>Um, look, I think that immediately people underestimate you when you're a woman, especially in indigenous woman. And so, um, what I was So basically what I would do is I didn't think about what they thought. Um, what I focused on was actually where I needed to go. And so all those people didn't believe that I could get it done. They thought I was dreaming. I know people said, um, at one point they said, Are this company looks like they're doing something similar to that. Just waste $2 million. What makes you think that you're going to be even come close to being successful like they are, um, and And my response to them was that that they aren't me. They don't have money in their organization. And I think that's something really critical. Um, that woman has to understand when they're standing up an organization, especially one of the technology. We, as a woman are unique. We bring to the table a different set of values and different principles that potentially others don't also bring to the table. We have a different level of work ethic, and so I actually think that through those experiences, I was able to be more resilient and follow through in terms of what I believe it was possible. So it doesn't matter what people thought. It doesn't matter if someone was richer or had more money than we did. Well, they had more. Exactly. I remember the other thing was with They've got all these, you know, really high high performing executives from love organizations in New Zealand. Who do you have again? My response was, Well, they don't have me right, And so that makes a significant difference. Um, it's not that I'm a unicorn, but it's that I have a very strong belief system, and I have a have a dream that I've been following for almost 40 years and trying to make come through. So those two things are things that you can't underestimate. And sometimes they are actually a lot more productive and valuable than money or positional executives within your organisation. >>Yeah, that's a great, great insight. And then again, congratulations again. Great inspiration. People worry about what everyone else is doing. Like what they got. They don't focus on what they're doing, But I love the confidence, the conviction, um, preparation, education. These are all themes that are coming out of this international Women's Day around how to be successful, how to raise your hand, how to drive through how to drive, control your career, control your own destiny. This is the theme. Education plays a big part of it. And obviously you're building a company. Amazon. You're involved with Amazon. You've got education now at your fingertips on the internet. Education is out there now. You can get it instantly, and you could level up with cloud and and really factor and compete >>at any time. Yeah, absolutely. I think if you look at a W s, they gave us the opportunity to be global instantly. I mean, without that, you know, without their infrastructure and they're back in and for us to turn that on in any country that we wanted, um, we wouldn't have been able to go global. And so, you know, I really do appreciate all of the different platforms and the technologies that we can access as a c e o of attack organization so that it actually enables us to be a global and have a global footprint. >>You know, you're a great example of what I always say about cloud computing and these platforms Is there agnostic when it comes to talent? If you can write good code and you're talented, yeah, the world is yours. There's no real degree you can get from a pedigree college or university. If you have what it takes, just plug it into the cloud and your instantly global. This is this is new. This wasn't like this years ago. >>Look. And to be honest, when I first started, I I chose voice Alexa voice as one of our channels to through which I I would provide financial updates to organizations. Now I didn't know what no one in New Zealand or Australia even knew what it was three years ago. And so, essentially, you know, the the ability to have access to people around the world to build your team, um, and to have infrastructure like Amazon, it just enables us to achieve great things. It enables us to give back more than we ever thought possible. So I think it's being able to know where you need to play the gap and then plugging that with infrastructure, which is strong and enables you to continue to grow and can really help you go forward. >>So talk to me about your current situation as a leader, as a woman in tech. Now, you have a company you're giving back, fulfilling your dream. You have a life, you gotta live your life and your life, and you're doing it all. What's it like being a leader and being a high-performance entrepreneur? >>Yeah, I love being able to give back and give back and industry, um, where it's just growing every day. The the environment is changing. We have to keep up to the play with all the new technologies that are coming through all the new capability. So that we don't get left behind. Technology enables you to become more efficient and effective and what we're working on three years ago, that's now changed significantly in terms of what it looks like now, how fast you can go, how much reach we can achieve when we're going out to our other customers and, uh, from across the globe. Also, I think that, um when you look at a woman in both of professional and a personal standpoint, I'm also a mother of four Children, and I'm also a wife. And so what I have to do is be able to balance running a typical organization as well as running the house. Unfortunately, even though I'm a C e o of a technology company, it's certainly doesn't enabled me to turn off the the mother light at the end of the night or at the beginning of the morning, when the kids at school I might be sitting in a meeting and doing a full negotiation for a for a high-value contract and in the back of my head, I'm thinking I have to take out the months later or I have to make sure that my daughter and members to take. It talks to school tomorrow. So we're quite lucky. Woman. We essentially running two parts of our brains, one of those being able to continue to nurture and and be the supporter of their husbands and our families and our Children at home as well as run these tech companies. So we're we're very lucky. I also think it's interesting that the majority of funding that that's made available by J Visas is not to women. I don't know why that is. But if you imagine having a woman who can literally, what run two worlds at the same time and be successful at both, then I think that that's high productivity that you want to be a part of. >>Yeah, that's that's injectable and more women leaders again having role models like you out there. And the story is really compelling and super inspirational. I love the 22 worlds just having to start at the same time. Yeah, talented, Um, but I love your comment also about the underdog, and I know a lot of entrepreneurs and being one myself and even people who are ultra successful, they still have the chip on the shoulder they still have the underdog mindset. So, um, is that true for you? Do you still feel like you're underdog? You always kind of. Is that something you'll never give up even when you're super successful? >>Yeah. Thanks. So, um and it's not an underdog from a really vicious, uncomfortable standpoint where I'm trying to, um, where I'm trying to get back at anybody. What it does do is as an indigenous person coming from low poverty, um, you know, the expectation of where I would end up was really low. If I if I wasn't pregnant or I wasn't in jail by 16, I was successful, and I had one. And so the bar has always been set really low for me. Even when I went and did a degree, Um, the first one was, Well, you should go and do Maori or a bachelor of arts at at University. And I said, Well, why can I go and do that thing over there? There's no Maoris or there's not a lot of women sitting in the finance, um, elections. Why don't I don't go and do a degree in finance. And so, as I've worked through my education and also my career. The expectation that achieved great things just wasn't there. And so that that drive does have to come from you internally. Um, sometimes you're not always surrounded by people who understand your value and what you can contribute to the world. And so what you do have to do is you have to have a personal belief system that enables you to actually leverage that underdog position. And so rather than letting that get you down like oh, they don't believe in me or they don't think I can do this so I can achieve that. Basically, what you do is you use it is like a little stepping stone. You're like, Thanks for that. I'll just put that over here and all it does is just enables you to prepare yourself forward. >>It's motivational. It's also curiosity. So, Steve Steve Jobs once said, Stay curious, you know, and, uh, stay foolish, actually. Say foolish, Amazon says. Be curious. That's the kind of slogan, >>but they >>will be foolish and stay curious. Whatever it is. That's kind of the mindset. And again what I love about the story, and I think this is a trend that we're seeing is that if you are underrepresented or you are the underdog now more than ever, the ability to level up is better than ever before. Anyone can start a company, you can get a cloud computing, and Amazon gives the education for free. If everyone someone stuck, you can just go online courses. So there's now plate paths to go from here to here quickly. Um, this is amazing. >>Yeah, but it is hard work, so right, so it doesn't come easy. Um And so that is one thing I think that people underestimate about the ability to stand up for business. And then it becomes this, you know, apple or Amazon or Google. And so, yes, my vision is that we're on the road trip back. We're focussed on being able to list in the last five years time with a billion dollar valuation and use that as a vision. But being able to be open-minded about what it's going to take to actually get there is really important, and so you can have conviction, but you need to follow through and have action. Um, you need to be open-minded about changing the way you thought it was going to look. I mean, every day, I probably three or four times since we've gone live last year. Um, and that was because she wasn't where she needed to be. We needed to private her so that we can continue to ensure that we ended up with the product market fit that enabled us to meet our vision, but also to achieved financial and strategic >>goals. That's a great point. You've got to do the work. You've got to grind it out. Sometimes you gotta be sensitive to the customers and the market. This is the secret final question for you. What a great conversation. Um, as an entrepreneur, we all know it's the trials. Tribulated the roller coaster. A lot of emotion. Like raising a family. You don't know what you're gonna get. You know, anything is possible. How do you maintain the balance? Emotionally as you go in and continue to build out your business, you gotta take the highs and the lows. >>Oh, look, in the early days of standing out today, I was very naive. Not because I was a woman just because I was new to the game. Um, I had always worked for global organizations that already established that had big bits of money that had resources that I could call on. And so I'd say that first 6 to 12 months was really hard. There was a time there where I had to rebuild i-i. They changed the back end infrastructure. Um, I've spoken to zero and Amazon. Alexa and I had to achieve a certain I had to go through a number of different gates. And what that means is that I had to rebuild build here. Um, I think I cried initially for the first couple of days, but then it was actually, it took me about a month to get over myself. And what I mean by that is I had this vision and this dream about how it was going to be. I was going to do this and then all these steps we're going to follow, and everything was going to turn out how I expected. Um, and then it hurt me within the first three months of trying to get accreditation That it wasn't It wasn't going to turn out how I wanted. I didn't have the resources or the money to execute it. How I wanted. And therefore what I had to do was understand why. Why? Because what happened was I was able to use my why It is the basis for why I was making decisions going forward. So rather than it being just this vision about where I was going to land, it ended up being It doesn't matter the how the pathway we get there. Obviously, we want to do it with integrity, but I don't necessarily know all the steps of how that's going to happen. But I need to be open to the fact that it won't. Now when I get disappointed and things don't happen, how I expect them now, I basically just perfect. Initially I cried and I sit there and complain to my husband, and I feel like, Oh, my God, let me do this. So it was like, I've turned me down and I'm not gonna do it this way. And, you know, I just complain and wind, Um, but three years on, basically, whenever I had a wall or I had a roadblock, I'm just I just step back and go right. I can't go that way. Let's find another way. And so I think you have to be really resilient around accepting that things won't always go away. But there is always another way. >>Don't worry. Great conversation. Building a business and text from your dreams. Getting educated, going out in the arena, being successful again. Once you're successful, you can write your original story The victory. The victor writes the narrative, as they say, so is it can be disappointing. Sometimes when you're learning to grow like that, businesses like that's a great story. And congratulations. And thank you so much for taking the time to to share on the Cube as part of our celebration of International Women's Day. Thank you so much. >>Okay, thanks so much. >>Okay, that's the presentation of women in Tech Global Event celebrating International Women's Day. I'm John for most of the Cube. Thanks for watching. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Hm. Yeah, yeah,

>> Welcome back everyone. CUBE live coverage here in Las Vegas for AWS Amazon Web Services, reinvent 2021. In person event on the floor, back in business, theCUBE. Two live sets pumping out content left and right. Three and a half days of wall to wall overage, over 120 interviews, stream 28 hours literally on the main site as well as on the CUBE zone. Go to CUBEreinvent.com to get all the action, all the videos will be there. Of course theCUBE.net. I'm John Furrier, your host, with Dave Nicholson my cohost this week and Sarbjeet Johal cloud strategist, influencer, all around great guy, CUBE alumni, here to break down reinvent in context to the cloud industry. Sarbjeet, great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Good to see you guys in person finally. >> I'm so excited. I did all these interviews the past two years in person and I've been remote, now were in person, great to do it, everyone's excited. 27,000 people here at reinvent. Stand in line for classes. By the way, they're not offering these classes online, only the leadership classes and the keynote. If you're not here, you're not getting the classes. >> I like the vibe actually. I thought it would be more subdued but it is better than what I thought and energy is here. It's not like 2019, it's not. >> That's 60,000 people, you couldn't even get through the hallway. Any company would love to have 27,000 people but I got to say, this year we were just talking earlier on the segment this morning, I wanted to get your thoughts on this, you go back 15 years ago when AWS rolled out, you have EC2, S3, SQS, you had to roll your own. Basically your alternative was better than building a data center or hosting on a colo. So great, check, you don't have to buy the technology tax. I think you had to fill in the glue layers, you had to kind of roll your own and build it up. Now everyone is scaling up and next gen cloud is a completely different architecture. You got serverless, you got all the glue layers pretty much there, and you can still add stuff on it, so a completely different mindset. Changing the startup speed game. Changing the enterprise. Looking pretty good. What's your reaction to the new architecture in cloud vis a vis where it came from? >> My reaction to the new architecture is that number one it's just new. We change stuff all the time in software stacks and what I was grasping within myself sitting in my hotel in the morning listening to Warner's keynote was that we have started to accumulate the technology debt even in cloud. We cooked up some some stuff with the scripts and we automated stuff with programing, language of your choice, or CLIs. Then became the cloud formation automation, orchestration of your cloud stack, if you will. Then Hashicorp are like, so Hashicorp are sitting on the side there. But now there's another abstraction layer on top of that which was announced during Warner's keynote today. I think the new abstraction layers leave the pervious architectures a little stale. It's always like, what should you do? Should you refactor your existing stacks or should you not touch that? Just go from now on on the new architecture? I think it's getting busy, complicated, a lot of number of services. >> What do you think other people are saying? I saw you did a little snippet with Dion Hinchcliffe online, nice Tweet there, you got a big video coming out. As you talk to other folks and influencers and people in the front lines, what are they saying about Amazon Reinvent this year? >> I think almost everybody's saying that number of services is expanding exponentially. I was thinking that 200 plus number of services or whatever that number is today, it's mind boggling. I totally understand that when you have two teams that they want to take the credit for creating a new service and they want to publish it. They want to do a press release and all that. But my request to all cloud providers, mainly three, is to not call everything a new service. Call that feature of a service. So number of services has to be reduced, collapsed if you will. We need umbrella services and then under that there should be features of services, that's one thing. Another feedback I got from some second tier partners is that they have the competency program for partners. They announced that. They had that earlier but new competencies. It leaves the second or third tier partners in the cold. Only the first tier partners can get those competencies because for that they have to send a lot of money, train people, then they get that check box, oh, you can do this. >> This whole services thing and what you call a service, if you called everything a service a new feature of DNS or a new thing here and there, serverless, there's be thousands of features, services. I think Amazon, I think they culled it down to like, 200, is the number we hear. >> But isn't that part of the role of the partner, the services provider, the consultancy, to act as a bridge between all of those services and features, whatever you want to call them and figuring out exactly what the end user customer actually needs? The idea that AWS is messaging here is targeted directly towards end user customers. There's a lot to be desired there because how do you translate that? I'm thinking, compare and contrast that with the Steve Jobs approach of there shall be three. There will be a large, a medium and a small. I know that this is more complex, but when you come out and you say, 475 different kinds of instances, you're leaving that to your partners to translate. To your point, if you're segregating those partners into categories where only a top tier has access to everything, interesting place to be. >> A couple of discussions I had with partners was that I actually suggested them to create a bank of reference architectures, we call that in Amazon terms. But it's not only technical side of things, but business as well. They need to create some principle based architectures and have a bank of that and then prescribe that to their customers base. I think that's the only way to simplify these things because as you said, if you have 200 different types of instances, for instance, (laughs), it is hard. It is really hard. >> I want to get your thoughts, we talk about this on Twitter all the time so the folks watching, if you want to follow our rants and raves on Twitter, follow us on Twitter you'll get all the action, all the influencers are there. Competition. I've been ranting all week and been saying it for a long time, Microsoft's not even close to Amazon. I'm a bit over the top but I'll just say that if Amazon goes unchecked, Microsoft's ecosystem's going to get decimated. Why would I want to run software, my software, on a suboptimal performance infrastructure? Microsoft had Windows back in the day and had the system software and the application suite but they encouraged developers to build on top of Windows. Their "dot net" or ecosystem. That game's over. I guess Window's runs on Amazon too, whatever. But now the cloud is the Windows. The cloud is the system software. So developers are running on top of the cloud. >> Yes. >> So who wins? >> I think Open wins. Not Open-source. Open-source and Open are different things, we always discuss that. I think Open wins, the close systems have this problem of protectionism which doesn't work, with our little kids at home or your economy as whole. When you protect your local industry, the economy goes down. I've seen that, I'm an economist by education as you guys know. >> Yes. >> I think it's the same, when you protect too much of whatever you have, I think it's has a worse effect. But there's one narrative, Satya sort of narrates if you will, he says that, hey, when you use Windows, you keep everything, 100%. We are not taking a cut. When you're sitting in a cloud marketplace, somebody's getting a cut. That's the argument. >> Terry Chen said, because he puked on what I said, he said better could win. >> Yes. >> That's one thing. Okay, I buy that. Azure could be better in some use cases. But I think over all Amazon wins hands down currently. Certainly with the custom processors. >> You haven't mentioned GCP. >> Actually GCP. >> What can you say about it? >> What you could say is that AWS right now has either constructed or is benefiting from the highest barrier to entry to any business in the history of our planet. You can look at the investment that GCP is making to the tune of six billion dollars a year to go after market share. Are they going after current market share which is arguably the 20% of IT that's in cloud now? Or are they going for future market share which is a piece of the larger pie? When you talk about who wins, I think it's still possible for- >> Hold on, hold on. >> You left Oracle out. I think it's still possible. >> Hold on, hold on, hold on. >> I can tell you about Oracle. >> Hold on, hold on. This is a thought exercise, I'm going to ask you guys this question. It may be rhetorical, you don't need to answer it. If you went to all the people out there buying Azure and GCP, no offense guys, and you said, "Put aside all your credits you've been given, how much are you actually using?" If you take the incentives away, why are you on those clouds from a performance perspective? >> Sorry to cut you off. We know that Oracle uses incentives, X codes, leads for sale, and all that stuff, we know that. A lot of people know that. So cloud became shelfware there, we know the story. I'm leaving Oracle to the side. But I think Google has legs. Google's cloud has legs. They are a very enduring focus company. They are more open-source friendly and data science friendly as well. I think they are actually a number two, personally I believe. I'm a developer by heart, so they are number two developer cloud after Amazon. >> I think it's well know, I agree with you by the way. I think people may not know this but it's well known in the industry that Amazon has been mostly afraid of Google more than Microsoft. I think now because of this market share, the ecosystem war that's going to happen in a very short period of time, Microsoft's more of a threat on paper. But Google's got more threat to sling shot back and front technically because if you look at Graviton, the stack that they're building for ISVs and developers, Amazon's clearly winning. Google can pull that off. If they get it, they got to have their own way. >> Let me tell you, the one thing actually, if we want to know what was the fumble this time? I have some, actually I will talk about it in my radio, if you have enough time here. I think Google will do better because they're open and Amazon is complex. I was thinking during the keynotes, what are the clues to Amazon, AWS, leaving which is helping Google and Azure, mainly Google. Google is simple actually, a lot simpler to use, but again having said that, there's one thing actually, the new term I'm trying to define is the feature proximity. Amazon has feature proximity, like the best. When you are doing one thing and you want to do another thing, they have that all right there. They're ahead of the game. They have their 5G, private 5G on all their stuff, it's very futuristic. >> By the way, I got Amazon to agree to get me some private 5G for when we go back home. We're going to setup an outdoor area for some open CUBE action with some 5G. >> Actually we could put that on a nice van with the logos and all that. We could move around. >> We'll park it right there on El Camino, right next to Stanford University. Maybe we could live in one of those things too. >> Make it a taco truck and I'll join you guys. >> (laughs) Taco truck for free food. >> Yeah, let's do that. >> All seriousness guys, I want to get your thoughts as we wrap up this segment on the analysis of the cloud industry. What do you guys think, your opinion, it's going to take, I'll start by saying I think Amazon, if not contested for their leadership in the performance of silicon and the stack for software developers and owners to run the fastest they can run away with this. I think Microsoft and Google better be cranking right now to make it easy and have silicon advantage as well. I think clearly if the ecosystem's going to be at play, because the shift is happening to modernize software development, low code, no code, every shift everyone will go to the best performance, independent of cost and incentives. Amazon's got lower cost too so they got the fly wheel going. >> I can make mine short. I think GCP can also be successful. But I think already the amount of momentum that AWS has, the wind behind it's sails, I was at EMC for many years and we used to joke about our arch nemesis Hitachi Data Systems and saying that they were quite discouraged every morning as they woke up learning that they were a year further behind. Every night they went to sleep. They woke up the next day and they were a year further behind. Watching the announcements coming out of this event this week, I think there are some people at GCP and Microsoft and others who have that sense. But having said that, we're at the dawn of at era of cloud. There's plenty of room for a lot of players. When you give us your thoughts, I'd like your answer to the question, how much are consumers in the driver's seat today? Will the customers be able to demand multi sourcing? >> I think customers, you work with your money. Customers can demand that but at the same time customers can get stuck in a platform and they can't get out. We usually talk about when to lock in. There's one thing that Amazon keeps saying that we are open, we are open and the other vendors are like, these brands. I think that kind of narrative can come bite back to them. It's not a good thing to say. You don't want to be cocky about your features or you are the best and all that stuff. I think you want to stay humble and respect the other guys as well because they are coming right behind you. I think the key is developers. I have the bias towards developers because I was a developers but I totally believe deep down, actually I have tried to put my developer hat off and still think that way about these constructs. Developers are the people who call the shots. If you are not developer friendly you can't do much. >> That's a good point. >> That's my warning to Amazon. Don't go away from developers. You are number one developer cloud, stay there. This refocus is good, but put that to the side, not make that front center. Google has made that front center, I think that's a mistake. >> Yeah, you have the features, the right features, but again, speed, performance. Developers, capture the opportunity. Developers want to move fast. That's the entrepreneurship. Sarbjeet, great to have you on theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thanks for having me here, I enjoyed it. Great set here. >> All right, Dave Nicholson's here. Dave Nicholson, CUBE host. I'm John Furrier. You're watching theCUBE, the world leader in technology coverage. We'll be back with more live coverage from Reinvent after this short break. (upbeat music)

(gentle music) (background chattering) >> Welcome to theCUBE's continuous coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm Dave Nicholson, and we are running one of the largest, most important hybrid events in the technology business. We've got two live sets here in Las Vegas, along with our two studios back home. And I'm absolutely delighted to have two fantastic guests with me. I'm joined by Stephen Manley, Chief Technology Officer from Druva. Stephen, welcome. >> Thanks, great to be here. >> Welcome back to theCUBE. >> I know. >> CUBE alumni. >> Love theCUBE. >> Along with Jake Burns, Enterprise Strategist from AWS, which I think stands for Amazon Web Services. >> You are correct, thank you. >> Fantastic, so the first question to you Jake is, well, first welcome, again, enterprise strategist, what does that mean exactly? >> Yeah, so- >> What do you do? (laughing) >> We're a team of former CIOs and CTOs who have all spent most of our time as customers and have all had large-scale success digitally transforming our organizations using the AWS Cloud. And now we work for AWS and we advise and work with some of our largest customers, share what worked for us, what didn't, and help them with the beginning stages of their cloud journey. >> Fantastic. >> And, Dave. Dave, you got to ask him, in the last year how many customers have you met? >> Oh, in the past year, I'm averaging about 150 to 200 different customers per year. >> Nice. >> So in the past three years, it's about 550. >> Nice. So can you remember all their names? Or do you do a lot of, "Hey, buddy. Hey, Sport." >> Jake: It's a lot harder with the masks on. >> Yes. >> But I recognize faces better than I remember the names. >> And Stephen, tell us about Druva. >> Yeah, so Druva, we are a SaaS data protection company. We built the first data resiliency cloud. So think of this as you might have data in endpoints, your data center, in AWS, in SaaS applications, and we're really shifting the discussion from, it's not just about backing it up, it's not just about protecting it anymore. It's about how do you recover it? how do you make sure your data is always on, always available to you? And that's really where we're trying to take the conversation. Is making sure that your data is there when you need it. >> And to be clear, this isn't just about resiliency for data that's in the cloud? This is also- >> Everywhere. >> on-premises? IT as well? >> On-premises, you might have VMs, you might have NAS servers, you might have Oracle databases on-prem, again, you might have endpoints. You might have Salesforce data, all of it. We want to make sure all your data's available to you. >> So let's focus on the relationship between Druva and AWS for a minute. It's always interesting to hear about success stories. Let's talk about inhibitors. What are the things that keep the two of you up at night? What are some of the things that... You talked about former CIOs and CTOs, CTOs like Stephen, you're working with existing CIOs and CTOs in all sorts of organizations, what are the things that are preventing them from leveraging cloud as well as they could be? Stephen, start with you on that. >> Yeah, I'll say the first thing is everybody right now is terrified of Ransomware, right? I met a CIO last night and he said, "My entire agenda for 2021, and now 2022 is security, security, security." And everyone is just searching for solutions to say, "How can I make sure that my environment is secure? How can I make sure my data is secure? Especially from these pretty much ubiquitous Ransomware attacks, because until I get that taken care of, it's really hard for me to get on these cloud transformation journeys." And so a lot of the discussion we have with them is, again, Druva in combination with AWS can actually help solve that Ransomware challenge for you so that instead of thinking it as, "Do one, and then you can do the cloud transformation." Let's put those two together, right? But for me, that's the number one thing, is people are just worried about how they're going to deal with security. >> So they're worried, but Jake, isn't it true, we'll do a little perimysium here. (laughing) Tell me the truth. >> All right. >> Isn't that the case that some people still think that effectively their money is safer under their mattress than in a bank? In other words, "I feel safer with on-prem IT than I do having it in some cloud somewhere." Are we still facing that sort of cultural divide between reality and perception? >> Yeah, there's definitely an education, widespread education effort going on right now. Training and certification, which AWS has a lot of experience with and has fantastic courses I went through when I was a customer, my team went through when we were a customer, we were able to get up-skilled very quickly. That fear of the unknown really the way to solve it is through information, through knowing how the cloud works. And it was so funny, I was just having a conversation right before this with an executive team of one of our largest customers and they were talking about how their CSO was dead set against the cloud and then one day did a complete 180. And we're seeing this all the time. When they realize what the cloud is, all the compliance and controls that we have, all of the redundancy that we have, all the benefits of being in the cloud. Then it seems to be like, there's just a moment where it clicks and then people become strong advocates. So there is still a lot of work to do in that area, but we find that people get it very quickly. >> Yeah, Stephen, you've had a long and illustrious career, I say that seriously. >> Stephen: There you go. >> And so you're living that bridging the divide between the old world of on-premises IT and cloud. What are you seeing in that regard in terms of where people's emotions are? >> Oh yeah, and that transformation that Jake talks about, I see it all the time where I'll sit down with a customer and it is exactly that, "Well, I have this on an appliance and because that appliance is under my control, I feel safer." And then we start talking about what the real threats are, that, let's face it Ransomware can come through your environment and it gets in anywhere and it can spread everywhere. And internal threats, internal bad actors, they can get at your appliances. And it very quickly shifts that conversation from, "Oh my gosh, how am I going to maintain all this? I have to do security patching, and upgrades, and I've got to watch everything." And Druva a sort of sits and says, "One of the great things that we had because we're built natively on AWS, a lot of the problems I worried about back when I built appliances are gone. I don't have to worry about capacity planning because AWS always gives me more. I don't have to worry about provisioning new equipment because it just automatically scales for me. I don't have to worry about a lot of the networking challenges that I used to have to worry about because it's built into the environment." And so a lot of what we talked to them about is, by taking these sort of daily routine things off the table, you can actually focus on the higher level value. You can focus on making your environment more secure because you're not just doing the basic blocking and tackling 'cause that's being done for you. And that really gets people sort of across that chasm. >> So you talk about basic block and tackle, in the keynote today, it was mentioned that there are 475 different types of instances within AWS. That gave me a little jolt to the heart because I was thinking back to Steve Jobs saying, "We can only have three of everything." And so sometimes with choice and with flexibility comes complexity. How does Druva manage the potential complexity that exists in the AWS space? How do you take what's best from AWS and deliver it to Druva customers to achieve what they want to achieve? >> Yeah, I think for us, that's really the benefit of being a SaaS provider is, we've designed a system from the ground up for AWS. And so, whether you're talking about the different storage types, where you've got S3, you've got Glacier, you've got Glacier Deep Archive. You have all the different instance types. You have different container services, ECS, EKS, there's all these choices. And frankly, it's something that we've spent a lot of time working on. And honestly, tons of people like Jake inside of AWS willing to help us. We characterize our workload and then they walk us through what's sort of the best practices so that we can deliver an end to end solution for the customer. So that, for our customers, it's just one simple cost, right? How much data are you storing? That's it, right? All the things happening in the background we take care of. And we take care of because we have AWS helping us design and implement this the best possible way. >> And so Jake, with all of the customer conversations that you've had, I'm sure we can guess what some of the themes have been over the last year or two with the pandemic and with things related to security. What are some of the other conversations that you're having with customers that people might not expect? >> Yeah. >> Based on what's going on? >> I think the biggest thing that would be surprising to most people is that vast majority of our conversations are about culture and about people, not about technology. We've gotten to a point where, and I've said this for a number of years, there's never been a better time to move to cloud, but that just keeps being more and more true as time goes on, as the technology gets more mature and as we have more and more examples of people who are very successful doing it. But like you said earlier, there are still some people who are used to the old way of doing things. So it's really largely an education issue, it's a culture issue. It's getting people to wrap their heads around this new way of doing things. And once they see that they get very excited about it. We very rarely see people who are kind of neutral about it. The very, very beginning stages, sometimes they're fearful. When they learn what it is they get very excited and they get very enthusiastic. And my advice to customers is to get your team excited and enthusiastic as early as possible, and they'll solve all of those process and technology problems very quickly and very easily. >> Now what are you seeing in terms of any skill gaps or skill divides? We, coming from a background where we're bridging the divide between sort of the legacy world and cloud. You have IT practitioners that have been doing this stuff for a long time. >> Right. >> That either need to move into the future or not. >> Right. >> Or you need to hire new people. Are there any challenges there in terms of finding the skill sets you need versus training up existing people? >> Yeah, so this is something I talk about a lot, and you do have a choice between hiring and trying to use the people you have and get them up skilled. I strongly favor the second. For one, it's very difficult to hire for cloud skills because it's in such high demand right now, but you use that to your advantage. And by training your staff, it's one of the kind of carrots you can use to get them excited about it. "You learn this, you will be valuable in the marketplace." And when you frame it that way, they get very excited to learn. And when you combine the training with the firsthand experience and give them opportunities to use it, and this could be everyone in the organization, it doesn't have to be like your engineering team or your infrastructure team. I had people in the help desk that learned how to become cloud engineers. When you give them that opportunity, and you give them the tools to do it, and the opportunity to use it with the training, it tends to be a much easier recipe for success. And then your problem becomes retention. But like I say, you're going to have either the problem of hiring or, retention, or you're going to have the problem of having people who don't have enough skills. I'd rather have the problem of retention. And if you have that capability of up-skilling people, then you don't really need to worry about it because there's more people all the time that are becoming more and more skilled. The other thing is, it's a lot easier to overlay cloud skills on top of people who already know your organization and your applications, than bring in new people- >> Sure. >> who have cloud skills, try to retain them and then teach them how your organization works. So there's a lot of advantages to using the people that you have, and the training is a lot easier than people think. >> So who were the people in those organizations that are making the decision to go with Druva? >> [Stephen} Right. >> And who are the people in organizations who are then managing Druva environments moving forward? Do you need a PhD in Druva- (laughing) >> Stephen: Right. >> to be able to manage an environment like that? >> I'll tell you one of the things that I talk to a lot of customers about that are going through sort of that, "How do I up skill?" Is, the first thing we try to remind them is, don't just about what you did on-premises, and then say, "And we're going to do the exact same thing in cloud." Because that is usually a path to either frustration or failure. "I had a physical appliance, I'm going to run a virtual appliance." That's not usually the right answer. So a lot of times we spend time walking them through, "Here's how you think differently. Again, cloud is dynamically scalable. You want something that breaks apart those limits. Cloud gives you 475 options, which means you have purchasing power that you never had as a company that you can have so many different options in front of you." So think of these not as how you thought of your on-premises environment, but think of it as a new way of doing things. And so what we find is the people who tend to be most attracted to Druva are those customers who are saying, "I'm spending too much time, effort, and money on my data protection environment." Which basically is everybody. Nobody wakes up and says, "I wish I could spend more time and money doing backup." And then in terms of who runs it, what we find is it often gets absorbed in sort of a cloud administrator task, right? Where they're looking more broadly across the organization. It's not just about backup, it's backup, it's disaster recovery, it's security, it's compliance because they're looking at the data as opposed to the infrastructure at that point. And that's where they can really start to grow their careers and have a lot bigger impact inside their companies. >> So I can tell that you're an awesome guy to have at a party, because you'll talk about all the risks that we face. >> Absolutely! >> Talking about data center fire drills, you're literally talking about fires and drills at that point. >> You got it. >> But so what's on the horizon for Druva? What are the things that you... When you look out into the future, in the area of resiliency, what are some of the things that you're thinking about? >> There's a couple of things for me. I think one of them, again, Ransomware is everywhere. And so many people right now are still focused on just, "Can I get a clean copy? Can I get a safe copy?" That's built into Druva. So, we're beyond that. The real focus for me is, how do we streamline your recovery process? Because for so many customers, they make this assumption that a Ransomware recovery is just like a disaster recovery. And it's not, it's not as if you just had a system outage. Someone has invaded your environment and you need to make sure that the data, the environment is clean before you recover. You're going to want clean sandboxes to play around with things before you put it in, you're going to need to work with your legal team. So a lot of what we're working with is helping them orchestrate at larger scale. I think the other area that gets really interesting is this notion of autonomous, right? We talk about self-driving cars. Again, nobody wants to spend time tuning and managing their backup environment. So as Druva moves forward it's, "How can we just do this automatically for you?" Again, we're built in the cloud, everything scales automatically. You as a customer shouldn't have to be doing anything. You shouldn't be babysitting this. Let us take care of it for you. So for me, those are the really two big things. It's cybersecurity, that full end to end recovery, and it's around the autonomous protection. >> So Jake, a reality check, anything that he just said that sounds like... (laughing) sounds out of line based on your experience talking to customers in the last year? >> Jake: No, I agree with that. And I think we're touching on something that's really powerful here, because you kind of alluded to the choice that people have in AWS and we're creating new services all the time and new features all the time, right? So these are building blocks that companies can use. And there's a lot of builders at a lot of companies that get very excited to see all these building blocks, and it's about using the right tool for the job. So by giving you more choices, we're giving you more of an opportunity to find the exact fit for the workload you have. But if you just want it to work, then we have this partner of ecosystems. Druva being one of our... My personal favorites (laughing) >> Love you , Jake. >> that build on AWS, use these very resilient, very secure building blocks to build something that's turnkey for a customer. So I think it's a great marriage and it benefits customers ultimately. So it makes us happy. >> All right, well 2022 we expect this gentlemen here to see at least 300 customers to meet his goal. That's what we're expecting from you, Jake. >> All right, I'm on it. >> Thanks to all for joining us here at theCUBE's, continuous coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021, I almost said 2022, live from Las Vegas. Stay tuned for much more from the leader in hybrid technology event programming, theCUBE. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> The Cloud essentially turned the data center into an API and ushered in the era of programmable infrastructure, no longer do we think about deploying infrastructure in rigid silos with a hardened, outer shell, rather infrastructure has to facilitate digital business strategies. And what this means is putting data at the core of your organization, irrespective of its physical location. It also means infrastructure generally and storage specifically must be accessed as sets of services that can be discovered, deployed, managed, secured, and governed in a DevOps model or OpsDev, if you prefer. Now, this has specific implications as to how vendor product strategies will evolve and how they'll meet modern data requirements. Welcome to this Cube conversation, everybody. This is Dave Vellante. And with me to discuss these sea changes is Ajay Singh, the Chief Product Officer of Pure Storage, Ajay welcome. >> Thank you, David, gald to be on. >> Yeah, great to have you, so let's talk about your role at Pure. I think you're the first CPO, what's the vision there? >> That's right, I just joined up Pure about eight months ago from VMware as the chief product officer and you're right, I'm the first our chief product officer at Pure. And at VMware I ran the Cloud management business unit, which was a lot about automation and infrastructure as code. And it's just great to join Pure, which has a phenomenal all flash product set. I kind of call it the iPhone or flash story super easy to use. And how do we take that same ease of use, which is a heart of a Cloud operating principle, and how do we actually take it up to really deliver a modern data experience, which includes infrastructure and storage as code, but then even more beyond that and how do you do modern operations and then modern data services. So super excited to be at Pure. And the vision, if you may, at the end of the day, is to provide, leveraging this moderate experience, a connected and effortless experience data experience, which allows customers to ultimately focus on what matters for them, their business, and by really leveraging and managing and winning with their data, because ultimately data is the new oil, if you may, and if you can mine it, get insights from it and really drive a competitive edge in the digital transformation in your head, and that's what be intended to help our customers to. >> So you joined earlier this year kind of, I guess, middle of the pandemic really I'm interested in kind of your first 100 days, what that was like, what key milestones you set and now you're into your second a 100 plus days. How's that all going? What can you share with us in and that's interesting timing because the effects of the pandemic you came in in a kind of post that, so you had experience from VMware and then you had to apply that to the product organization. So tell us about that sort of first a 100 days and the sort of mission now. >> Absolutely, so as we talked about the vision, around the modern data experience, kind of have three components to it, modernizing the infrastructure and really it's kudos to the team out of the work we've been doing, a ton of work in modernizing the infrastructure, I'll briefly talk to that, then modernizing the data, much more than modernizing the operations. I'll talk to that as well. And then of course, down the pike, modernizing data services. So if you think about it from modernizing the infrastructure, if you think about Pure for a minute, Pure is the first company that took flash to mainstream, essentially bringing what we call consumer simplicity to enterprise storage. The manual for the products with the front and back of a business card, that's it, you plug it in, boom, it's up and running, and then you get proactive AI driven support, right? So that was kind of the heart of Pure. Now you think about Pure again, what's unique about Pure has been a lot of our competition, has dealt with flash at the SSD level, hey, because guess what? All this software was built for hard drive. And so if I can treat NAND as a solid state drive SSD, then my software would easily work on it. But with Pure, because we started with flash, we released went straight to the NAND level, and as opposed to kind of the SSD layer, and what that does is it gives you greater efficiency, greater reliability and create a performance compared to an SSD, because you can optimize at the chip level as opposed to at the SSD module level. That's one big advantage that Pure has going for itself. And if you look at the physics, in the industry for a minute, there's recent data put out by Wikibon early this year, effectively showing that by the year 2026, flash on a dollar per terabyte basis, just the economics of the semiconductor versus the hard disk is going to be cheaper than hard disk. So this big inflection point is slowly but surely coming that's going to disrupt the hardest industry, already the high end has been taken over by flash, but hybrid is next and then even the long tail is coming up over there. And so to end to that extent our lead, if you may, the introduction of QLC NAND, QLC NAND powerful competition is barely introducing, we've been at it for a while. We just recently this year in my first a 100 days, we introduced the flasher AC, C40 and C60 drives, which really start to open up our ability to go after the hybrid story market in a big way. It opens up a big new market for us. So great work there by the team,. Also at the heart of it. If you think about it in the NAND side, we have our flash array, which is a scale-up latency centric architecture and FlashBlade which is a scale-out throughput architecture, all operating with NAND. And what that does is it allows us to cover both structured data, unstructured data, tier one apps and tier two apps. So pretty broad data coverage in that journey to the all flash data center, slowly but surely we're heading over there to the all flash data center based on demand economics that we just talked about, and we've done a bunch of releases. And then the team has done a bunch of things around introducing and NVME or fabric, the kind of thing that you expect them to do. A lot of recognition in the industry for the team or from the likes of TrustRadius, Gartner, named FlashRay, the Carton Peer Insights, the customer choice award and primary storage in the MQ. We were the leader. So a lot of kudos and recognition coming to the team as a result, Flash Blade just hit a billion dollars in cumulative revenue, kind of a leader by far in kind of the unstructured data, fast file an object marketplace. And then of course, all the work we're doing around what we say, ESG, environmental, social and governance, around reducing carbon footprint, reducing waste, our whole notion of evergreen and non-disruptive upgrades. We also kind of did a lot of work in that where we actually announced that over 2,700 customers have actually done non-disruptive upgrades over the technology. >> Yeah a lot to unpack there. And a lot of this sometimes you people say, oh, it's the plumbing, but the plumbing is actually very important too. 'Cause we're in a major inflection point, when we went from spinning disk to NAND. And it's all about volumes, you're seeing this all over the industry now, you see your old boss, Pat Gelsinger, is dealing with this at Intel. And it's all about consumer volumes in my view anyway, because thanks to Steve Jobs, NAND volumes are enormous and what two hard disk drive makers left in the planet. I don't know, maybe there's two and a half, but so those volumes drive costs down. And so you're on that curve and you can debate as to when it's going to happen, but it's not an if it's a when. Let me, shift gears a little bit. Because Cloud, as I was saying, it's ushered in this API economy, this as a service model, a lot of infrastructure companies have responded. How are you thinking at Pure about the as a service model for your customers? What's the strategy? How is it evolving and how does it differentiate from the competition? >> Absolutely, a great question. It's kind of segues into the second part of the moderate experience, which is how do you modernize the operations? And that's where automation as a service, because ultimately, the Cloud has validated and the address of this model, right? People are looking for outcomes. They care less about how you get there. They just want the outcome. And the as a service model actually delivers these outcomes. And this whole notion of infrastructure as code is kind of the start of it. Imagine if my infrastructure for a developer is just a line of code, in a Git repository in a program that goes through a CICD process and automatically kind of is configured and set up, fits in with the Terraform, the Ansibles, all that different automation frameworks. And so what we've done is we've gone down the path of really building out what I think is modern operations with this ability to have storage as code, disability, in addition modern operations is not just storage scored, but also we've got recently introduced some comprehensive ransomware protection, that's part of modern operations. There's all the threat you hear in the news or ransomware. We introduced what we call safe mode snapshots that allow you to recover in literally seconds. When you have a ransomware attack, we also have in the modern operations Pure one, which is maybe the leader in AI driven support to prevent downtime. We actually call you 80% of the time and fix the problems without you knowing about it. That's what modern operations is all about. And then also Martin operations says, okay, you've got flash on your on-prem side, but even maybe using flash in the public Cloud, how can I have seamless multi-Cloud experience in our Cloud block store we've introduced around Amazon, AWS and Azure allows one to do that. And then finally, for modern applications, if you think about it, this whole notion of infrastructure's code, as a service, software driven storage, the Kubernetes infrastructure enables one to really deliver a great automation framework that enables to reduce the labor required to manage the storage infrastructure and deliver it as code. And we have, kudos to Charlie and the Pure storage team before my time with the acquisition of Portworx, Portworx today is truly delivers true storage as code orchestrated entirely through Kubernetes and in a multi-Cloud hybrid situation. So it can run on EKS, GKE, OpenShift rancher, Tansu, recently announced as the leader by giggle home for enterprise Kubernetes storage. We were really proud about that asset. And then finally, the last piece are Pure as a service. That's also all outcome oriented, SLS. What matters is you sign up for SLS, and then you get those SLS, very different from our competition, right? Our competition tends to be a lot more around financial engineering, hey, you can buy it OPEX versus CapEx. And, but you get the same thing with a lot of professional services, we've really got, I'd say a couple of years and lead on, actually delivering and managing with SRE engineers for the SLA. So a lot of great work there. We recently also introduced Cisco FlashStack, again, flash stack as a service, again, as a service, a validation of that. And then finally, we also recently did a announcement with Aquaponics, with their bare metal as a service where we are a key part of their bare metal as a service offering, again, pushing the kind of the added service strategy. So yes, big for us, that's where the buck is skating, half the enterprises, even on prem, wanting to consume things in the Cloud operating model. And so that's where we're putting it lot. >> I see, so your contention is, it's not just this CapEx to OPEX, that's kind of the, during the economic downturn of 2007, 2008, the economic crisis, that was the big thing for CFOs. So that's kind of yesterday's news. What you're saying is you're creating a Cloud, like operating model, as I was saying upfront, irrespective of physical location. And I see that as your challenge, the industry's challenge, be, if I'm going to effect the digital transformation, I don't want to deal with the Cloud primitives. I want you to hide the underlying complexity of that Cloud. I want to deal with higher level problems, but so that brings me to digital transformation, which is kind of the now initiative, or I even sometimes call it the mandate. There's not a one size fits all for digital transformation, but I'm interested in your thoughts on the must take steps, universal steps that everybody needs to think about in a digital transformation journey. >> Yeah, so ultimately the digital transformation is all about how companies are gain a competitive edge in this new digital world or that the company are, and the competition are changing the game on, right? So you want to make sure that you can rapidly try new things, fail fast, innovate and invest, but speed is of the essence, agility and the Cloud operating model enables that agility. And so what we're also doing is not only are we driving agility in a multicloud kind of data, infrastructure, data operation fashion, but we also taking it a step further. We were also on the journey to deliver modern data services. Imagine on a Pure on-prem infrastructure, along with your different public Clouds that you're working on with the Kubernetes infrastructures, you could, with a few clicks run Kakfa as a service, TensorFlow as a service, Mongo as a service. So me as a technology team can truly become a service provider and not just an on-prem service provider, but a multi-Cloud service provider. Such that these services can be used to analyze the data that you have, not only your data, your partner data, third party public data, and how you can marry those different data sets, analyze it to deliver new insights that ultimately give you a competitive edge in the digital transformation. So you can see data plays a big role there. The data is what generates those insights. Your ability to match that data with partner data, public data, your data, the analysis on it services ready to go, as you get the digital, as you can do the insights. You can really start to separate yourself from your competition and get on the leaderboard a decade from now when this digital transformation settles down. >> All right, so bring us home, Ajay, summarize what does a modern data strategy look like and how does it fit into a digital business or a digital organization? >> So look, at the end of the day, data and analysis, both of them play a big role in the digital transformation. And it really comes down to how do I leverage this data, my data, partner data, public data, to really get that edge. And that links back to a vision. How do we provide that connected and effortless, modern data experience that allows our customers to focus on their business? How do I get the edge in the digital transformation? But easily leveraging, managing and winning with their data. And that's the heart of where Pure is headed. >> Ajay Singh, thanks so much for coming inside theCube and sharing your vision. >> Thank you, Dave, it was a real pleasure. >> And thank you for watching this Cube conversation. This is Dave Vellante and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Okay, Chloe, thank you very much. Hey folks, in here in the Cloud City We with Danielle Royston. Great to see you. Watching you up on stage, I got to say, as the CEO of TelcoDR, leader and chief executive of that company. As well as a great visionary, you laid out the vision. It's hard to debate that. I mean, I think there's people who will say that vision, is like freedom, no one can debate it. It's not going to happen. >> Yeah, there's still a lot of debate in our industry about it. There's a lot of articles being written about it. I've referenced one about, you know, should we let the dragons into the castle? For me, I think it's super obvious. I think other industries are like "Duh, we've made the move." And Telco is still like, "Hmm, we're not sure." And so, am I a visionary, I don't know. I'm just sort of just Babe Ruth-ing it a little bit. I think that's where we're going. >> You know you do, you have a lot of content, podcasts, you write blogs, you do a lot of speaking. You brought it all together on stage, right? That has got to feel good. >> Yeah. >> You've got a body of work and it came together very nicely. How did you feel up there? >> Oh my God, it's absolutely nerve wrecking. I sort of feel like, you know, could you tell if my hands were shaking? Right, could you tell that my heart was racing? >> It's a good feeling. >> I don't know. >> Come on! >> I'll be honest, I'm happy it's over, I'm happy. I think I did a really great job and I'm really happy >> Yeah, you did a great job, I love the dragon reference-- >> Have it in the can. >> Fantastic, loved the Game of Thrones vibe there. It was cool-- >> Totally. >> One of the things I wanted pick up on, I thought it was very interesting and unique was the iPhone reference 14 years ago, because that really, to me, was a similar moment because that shifted the smartphone. A computer that happened to make phone calls. And then we all knew who was the leader at that time, Nokia, Blackberry with the phones, and they became toast. That ushered in a whole another era of change, wealth creation, innovation, new things. >> Yeah. Well, up until that moment, carriers had been designing the phones themselves. They were branded with their logos. And so Steve Jobs fought for the design of the iPhone. He designed it with the consumer, with the user in mind. But I think what it really, I mean, it's such a big pivotal moment in our industry because it singled the end of voice revenue and ushered in the era of data. But it also introduced the OTT players, right? That came in through the apps and started a siphon approved from the carriers. And this is like, it's a pivotal moment in the industry, like, changed the industry forever. >> It's a step function, it was a step function change, it's obvious, everyone knew it. But what's interesting is that we were riffing yesterday about O-RAN and Android. So you have iPhone, but Android became a very successful open source project that changed the landscape of the handset. Some are saying that that kind of phenomenon is coming here. Into Telco with software, kind of like an Android model where that'll come in. What's your thoughts on that, reaction to that? >> Yeah, well the dis-aggregation of the hardware, right? We're in the iconic Erickson booth, right? They get most of their revenue from RAN, from Radio Access Networks. And now with the introduction of Open RAN, right? With 50% less CapEx, 40% less OPEX, you know, I think it's easiest for Greenfield operators like Dish, that are building a brand new network. But just this month, Vodafone announced they're going to build the world's largest Open RAN network. Change is happening and the big operators are starting to adopt Open RAN in a real big way. >> So to me, riding the dragon means taking the advantage of new opportunities on top of that dragon. Developing apps like the iPhone did. And you mentioned Android, they got it right. Remember the Windows Phone, right? They tried to take Windows and shove it to the phone-- >> Barely. >> It was a kin phone too. >> I try to delete it from my, look here, beep! >> I'm going to take this old world app and I'm going to shove it into the new world, and guess what, it failed. So if the Telco is trying to do the same thing here, it will fail, but if they start building 5G apps in the cloud and pick the cloud native and think about the consumer, isn't really that the opportunity that you're talking about? >> Well, I think it is, absolutely. And I think it's a wake up call for the vendors in our space, right? And I'm certainly trying to become a vendor with Totogi. I'm really pushing my idea. But you can't take, using your Windows example on the Windows Phone, you can't take a Windows app and stuff it onto a phone and you can't take these old school applications that were written 20 years ago and just stuff them into the cloud, right? Cloud is not a place, it's a way to design applications and it all needs to be rewritten and let's go write, rewrite it. >> It's not a destination as we always say. Let's take a step back on the keynote 'cause I know we just did a couple of highlights there, wasn't the whole thing. We were watching it, by the way, we thought you did a great job, you were very cool and calm under pressure. But take us through the core ideas in the keynote. Break down the core elements of what the talk was about. >> Yeah, I think the headline really is, you know, just like there were good and bad things about the iPhone, right? It killed voice, but introduced data and all these other things. There's good and bad things about the public cloud, right? It's not going to be smooth sailing, no downsides. And so I acknowledge that, even though I'm the self appointed queen, you know? This self appointed evangelist. And so, I think that if you completely ignore the public cloud, try to stick your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist, I think there's nothing but downsides for Telcos. And so I think you need to learn how to maximize the advantage there, ride he dragon, like spew some fire and, you know, get some speed and height, and then you can double your ARPU. But I think, going from there, so the next three, I was trying to give examples of what I meant by that, of why it's a double-edged sword, why it's two sides of the coin. And I think there's three areas, which is the enterprise, the network, and a relationship with subscribers. And so that really what the talk, that's what the talk is about >> The three main pillars. >> Yeah, yeah! >> Future, work, enterprise, transition, Open RAN. >> The network and then the relationship with the subscribers. >> Those are the structural elements you see. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> What's the most important one you think, right now, that people are focused on? >> I mean, I think the first one, with work, that's an easy one to do, because there's not too much downside, right? I think we all learned that we could work productively from home. The reason public cloud matter there is because we had tools like Zoom and G Suite and we didn't need to be, I mean, imagine if that this had happened even 20 years ago, right? Broadband at the home wasn't ready, the tools weren't ready. I mean, it would have been, I mean a bigger disaster than it was, right? And so this is an opportunity to sort of ride this work from home wave that a lot of CEOs are saying, we're not coming back or we're going to have smaller offices. And all of those employees need fiber to their home. They need 5G at their home. I mean, if I'm a head of enterprise in a Telco, I am shifting my 5G message from like random applications or whatever, to be like, how are you getting big pipes to the home so your workers can be productive there? And that, I don't hear Telco's talking about that and that's a really big idea. >> You know, you say it's a no brainer, but it's interesting you had your buildings crumbling, which was great, very nice effect in the talk. I heard a executive, Wall Street executive the other day, talking about how, "My people will be back in the office. "I'm going to mandate vaccinations, they're going to be back "in the office, you work for me. "Even though it's an employee friendly environment "right now, I don't care". And I was shocked. I go, okay, this is just an old guy. But, and it's not just the fact that it's an old guy, old guard doing that because I take two examples of old guys, Michael Dell and Frank Slootman. >> Yeah. >> Right, Michael Dell, you know, hundred billion dollar company, Frank Slootman, hottest, you know, software company. Both of them, sort of agree. It's a no brainer. >> Yeah. >> Why should I spend all this money on buildings? And my people are going to be more productive. They love it, so. Why fight the fashion? >> Well, I think the office and I can talk about this for a long time and I know we don't have that much time, but on offices, it's a way to see when did you come in and when did you leave, and look over your shoulder and what we're working on. And that's what offices are for. Now, we tell ourselves it's about collaboration and all this other stuff. And you know, these guys are saying, "come back to the office." It's because they don't have an answer on how to manage productivity. What are you working on? Are you off, are you authentically working 40 hours a week? I want to see, I know if at least you're here, you're here. Now, you might be playing, you know, Minesweeper. You might be playing Minesweeper on your computer, but at least you were, your butt was at your computer. So yeah, I think this is a pivotal moment in work. I think Telcos could push it, to work from home. We'll get you the pipes, we'll get you the cloud-based tools to help manage productivity, to change in work style. >> Yeah, and we've covered this in theCube many times, about how software is going to enable this virtual first model, no one's actually built software for virtual first. I think that's going to happen. Again, back to your team software, but I want to ask you about software defined infrastructure. You mentioned O-RAN, and as software eats the world and eats infrastructure, you still need infrastructure. So, talk about the relationship of how you see O-RAN competing and winning with the balance of software versus the commodity argument. >> Yeah, and I think this is really where people get scared in Telco. I mean, authentically nervous, right. Where you're like, okay, really the public cloud is at that network edge, right? We're really going to like, who are we? It's an identity crisis. We're not the towers anymore. We're renting space, right? We're now dis-aggregating the network, putting the edge cloud right there and it's AWS or Google. Who are we, what do we do, are we networks? Are we a tech company? Right, and so I'm like, guys, you are your subscribers and you don't focus on that. I mean, it's kind of like a last thought. >> So you're like a therapist then too, not just an evangelist. >> I'm a little bit of a therapist. >> Okay, lay down on the couch, Telco. >> Let's talk about what your problems are. (laughs) >> They have tower issues. >> All seriousness, no but, the tower is changing is backhauling. Look at direct connects for instance. The rise of direct and killed the exchanges. I mean, broadband, backhaul, last mile, >> Yeah. >> Completely, still issues, >> Yeah. >> But it's going to software and so that's there. The other thing I want to get to quickly, I know we don't have a lot of time, is the love relationship you talk about with subscribers. We had Peter Adderton on, from a Boost Mobile, formerly Boost Mobile, earlier. He was saying, if you don't have a focus on the customer, then you're just selling minutes and that's it. >> Yeah. >> And his point was, they don't really care. >> Yeah. Let's talk about organizational energy, right? How much energy is contained within any organization, not just Telco, but any organization. To some of your people time is the hours they work per week. And then you think of that as a sack on how you're allocating your time and spending your time, right? And so I think they spend 50% of their time, maybe more, fighting servers, machines, the network, right? And having all these battles. How much of that organizational energy is dedicated to driving great subscriber experiences? And it just shrunk, right? And I think that's where the public cloud can really help them. Like ride the dragon. Let the dragon deal with some of this underlying stuff. So that you can ride a dragon, survey the land, focus on your subscriber and back to the software. Use software, just like the OTT players are doing. They are taking away your ARPU. They're siphoning your ARPU, 'cause they're providing a better customer experience. You need to compete on that dimension. Not the network, not the three Telcos in the country. You're competing again, WhatsApp, Apple, Amazon, Facebook. And you spent how much of your organizational energy to focus on that? Very small. >> And that's where digital platforms roll by, it uses the word platform, why? Because everybody wants to be a platform. Why do you want to be a platform? Because I want to be like Amazon, they're a platform. And you think about Netflix, right? It's not, you know, you don't think about Netflix UK or Netflix Spain, right? >> It's global. >> There's one Netflix >> Yeah, yeah. >> You don't think about their marketing department or their sales department or their customer service, you think about the app. >> Yeah. >> You know. One interface. And that's what digital platforms allow you to do. And granted, there's a lot of public policy to deal with, but if you're shooting satellites up in space, >> Yeah. >> You know, now, you own that space, right, global network. >> And what makes Netflix so good, I think, is that it knows you, right? It knows what you're watching and recommends things, and you're like, "Oh, I would like that, that's great." Who knows more about you than your mobile phone? Carry it everywhere you go, right? What you're watching, what you're doing, who you're calling, what time did you wake up? And right now all of that data we talked about a couple of days ago, it's trapped in siloed old systems. And like why do people think Google knows so much about you? Telco knows about you. And to start to use that to drive a great experience. >> And you've got a great relationship with Netflix. The relationship we have with our our carrier is to your admin, "can you call these guys? "I don't know, I lost the password, I can't get in". >> Right. >> It's like-- >> Or you get SIM hacked-- >> I don't have an hour and a half to call your call center 'cause you don't have a chat bot, right. >> I don't have time. >> Chat bot, right. I can't even do the chat bot because my problem is, you're like, I got to talk to someone. All of their systems are built with the intention of a human being on the other side, and there's all this awesome chat bot AI that works. >> Yeah. >> Set it free. >> Yeah, yeah, right. You almost rather go to the dentist, then calling your carrier. >> Well, we're going to wrap things up here on the keynote review. Did you achieve what you wanted to achieve? I mean, controversy, bold vision, leadership, also that came across, but people they know who you are now. You're out there and that's great news. >> Yeah. I think I rocked the Telco universe and I'm really, that was my goal, and I think I accomplish it so, very excited. >> Well, we love having you on theCUBE. It's great to have great conversations, not only are you dynamic and smart, you're causing a lot of controversy, in a good way and getting, waking people up. >> Making people talk, that's a start. >> And I think, the conversations are there. People are talking and having relationships on the ecosystem open, it's all there. Danielle Royston, you are a digital revolution, DR. Telco DR, thanks for coming to theCube. >> Thank you so much, always fun. >> Good to see you. >> Thanks. >> Of course, back to the Cloud City studios. Adam is going to take it from here and continue on day three of theCube. Adam in studio, thanks for having us and take it from here.

(upbeat electronic music) >> Okay thanks, Adam, and the studio. We're here on the floor in Cloud City, right in the middle of all the action, the keynotes are going on in the background. It's a packed house. I'm John Furrier. Dave Vellante's on assignment, digging in, getting those stories. He'll have the analysis, he'll be back on theCUBE, but I want to welcome Chloe Richardson, who has been holding down the main stage here in Cloud City with amazing content that she's been hosting. Chloe, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, and kicking it off day two with me. >> No, not at all. Thank you for having me! It's very exciting! I love what you guys have got over here, very fun! >> We're inside theCUBE. This is where all the action is, and also, Cloud City is really changing the game. If you look at what's going on here in Cloud City, it's pretty spectacular. >> No, I mean, the atmosphere is absolutely palpable. Isn't it? You can just feel it. People walk in and see what the future looks like for the telecoms industry. Very exciting. >> And you've been doing a great job on the main stage, we're really loving your content. Let's get into some of the content here. After the keynotes are going on, we're going to have DR maybe fly by the set later, we're going to check that out. But let's check out this videotape. This is TelcoDR. You got to check out this reel, and we'll be right back, and we'll talk about it. (smooth electronic music) >> TelcoDR burst onto the global telecom scene this year, making headlines for taking over the huge Erickson space at MWC 21, and for building Cloud City in just a hundred days. But why did the company go to such trouble? And what is their unique offering to the telecoms industry? And what drives their dynamic CEO, Danielle Royston, or DR, as everyone calls her? Cloud City Live caught up with DR, away from the hustle and bustle of the city to find out. (upbeat instrumental music) >> Hi, I'm Danielle Royston, coming to you from beautiful Barcelona! I'm here for MWC 21. About a hundred days ago, I decided to take over the iconic Erickson booth to turn it into Cloud City. Cloud City has over 30 vendors, and 70 demos, to introduce telco to what I think is the future for our industry. We're going to have three awesome experiences. We're going to talk about the new subscriber experience. We're going to talk about what's in store for the new network, and the future of work. And I'm really excited to create a community, and invite awesome telco executives to see this new feature. It's been a really tough 18 months, and we didn't know what MWC 21 was going to be like in terms of attendance. And so from the get-go, we planned this amazing experience that we call Cloud City Live. At Cloud City Live, we have two main components. We have the speaker series, where we have over 50 speakers from Amazon, Google, Microsoft, as well as CSPs, and awesome vendors, talking about the public cloud in telco. The second part of Cloud City Live is theCUBE. Think of this as like an ESPN desk of awesome tech interviews focused on telco and the public cloud, hosted by John furrier and Dave Vallente. Dave and John are going to talk to a variety of guests focused on telco in the public cloud. It's a great way for our virtual participants to feel like they're at the show, experiencing what's going on here. So excited to have them as part of the Cloud City booth. There's a ton of innovation going on in telco, and 20 years ago, Elon Musk set on his mission to Mars. I, like Elon Musk, am on a quest to take telco to the public cloud. Every year at MWC, there's always a flurry of announcements, and this year is no different. At this year's MWC, Totogi, a startup that I invested $1,000,000 in, will be launching. Totogi is introducing two products to the market this week at MWC. The first is at planetary scale charger. More than a charger, it's an engagement, coupling your network data with charging information to drive subscriber engagement, and doubling your ARPU. The second product that Totogi is introducing is a planetary scale BSS system, built on top of the TM Forum Open APIs. Both of these products will be available for viewing in the virtual booth, as well as on the show floor. The public cloud is an unstoppable mega trend that's coming to telco! I'm super excited to bring to you the vendors, the products, the demonstrations, and the speakers, both to people here in Barcelona, and virtually around the world! (upbeat instrumental music) Well, that was a fascinating insight into the origins of TelcoDR, why public cloud is going to truly disrupt the telecoms industry, and why DR herself is so passionate about it. If you'd like to find out more, come and see us at Cloud City. (groovy electronic music) >> Okay, thanks. Just rolling that reel. Chloe, I mean, look at that reel, I mean, DR, Danielle Royston, she's a star. And I've seen a lot of power players in the industry. She's got guts and determination, and she's got a vision, and she's not just, you know, making noise about telco and cloud, there's actually a lot of real good vision there! I mean, it's just so impressive. >> No, it really is. And for me, it's almost like the next moonshot. It's the moonshot of the telco world! She's innovative, she's exciting. And if we've learned anything over the last 18 months, it's that we need that in this industry, to grow for the future of the industry. So, so exciting. I think she's a real inspiration! >> And I love the fact that she's so takes the tiger by the tail. Because the telco industry is being disrupted, she's just driving the bus here. And I remember, I did a story on Teresa Carlson, who was with Amazon Web Services, she was running the public sector, and she was doing the same exact thing in that public sector world in DC, and around the world. She opened up regions in Bahrain, which as a woman, that was an amazing accomplishment. And she wasn't just a woman, she was just a power player! And she was an exceptional leader. I see DR doing the same thing, and people aren't going to like that, I'll tell you right now. People are going to be like, "Whoa, what's going on here?" >> Now of course, it's always that way we pioneers though, isn't it? At the time, people thinking what is going on here, we don't like change, why are being shaken up? But actually, afterwards, in retrospect, they think, "Oh, okay. I see why that happened, and we needed it." So, really exciting stuff. >> Making things happen, that's what we're doing here on theCUBE. Obviously, the main stage's doing a great job. Let's go check out this highlight reel. If you're watching and you missed some of the action, this is obviously the physical event back since 2019 in February, but there's also a hybrid event, a lot of virtual action going on. So, you got theCUBE Virtual, you got a lot of content on virtual sites. But in person here, we're going to go show you a highlight reel from what we did yesterday, and what was happening around the show. Enjoy this quick highlight reel from yesterday. (groovy electronic music) (cheerful instrumental music) (groovy electronic music) Okay. We're back here in theCUBE. We're on the main floor out here with Chloe, who is emceeing, hosting, and driving the content on the Cloud City main stage. Chloe, it's been great here. I mean so far, day one, I was watching your presentations and fireside chats you've been hosting. Awesome content. I mean, people are like jazzed up. >> Yeah, no, for sure. We had Scott Brighton on yesterday, who was our opening keynote on the live stage, and his session was all about the future of work, which is so relevant and so pertinent to now. And he talked about the way it's changing. And in 10 years, it's going to be a trillion dollar industry to be in the cloud at work. So, really interesting! I mean, yeah, the atmosphere here is great. Everyone's excited. It's new content everyday. And that's the thing, it's not stale content! It's stuff that people want to hear. People are here for the new hot trends, the new hot topics. It's very exciting. >> Yeah, the next big thing. And also it's a fiscal event, so since 2019, this Mobile World Congress has been a massive event, and hasn't happened since February, 2019. That's a lot of time that's elapsed in the industry because of COVID, and people are glad to be here. But a lot of stuff's changed! >> Yeah. It's a different world, right? I mean, two years in the telco industry is like a hundred years elsewhere. Everything has changed! Digital transformation migration, obviously cloud, which is what we're talking about over here at Cloud City Live. I'm wondering though, John, I'd like to pick your brains on something. >> John: Sure. >> It has changed in the last two years. We know that! But what about the future of Mobile World Congress? How do you see it changing in the next few years. >> Oh, man. That's a great question. I mean, my observation, I've been coming to the show for a very long time, over a decade and a half, and it's been a nerdy show about networks, and telecom, which is basically radios, and wireless, and then mobile. But it's very global, a lot of networks. But now it's evolving! And many people are saying, and we were talking on theCUBE yesterday, Dave Vellante was commenting, that this show is turning into a consumer like show. So CES is the big consumer electronics show in the US, in Las Vegas every year. This show has got a vibe, because of all the technology from the cloud players, and from the chips, getting smaller, faster, cheaper, more capability, lower power. So people look at the chips, the hardware. It's less about the speeds and feeds, it's more about the consumer experience. We got cars. I was talking to a guy yesterday, he said, "Vehicle e-commerce is coming." I went, "What the hell his vehicle e-commerce?" And you could be on your app driving down the freeway and go, "Hey, I want some food." Instead of having it delivered to you, you order it, you pick it up. So that's kind of what can be happening now in real time, you can do all kinds of other things. So, a lot of new things are happening. >> Yeah, I think so. Do you see that as another disruption for the industry? That is, the fact that it's moving to be more consumer focused? Is there anything we should be worried about in that space? >> Well, I think the incumbents are going to lose their positions. So I think in any new shift, new brands come in out of nowhere. And it's the people that you don't think about. It's the the company that you don't see. (audience in background applauding) And we got DR on the main stage right here, look at this! We saw her walk out with the confidence of a pro. >> Chloe: Yeah, for sure. >> She just walked out there, and she's not afraid. >> Well, as she said in her video, she is ready to wake them up! And you can see as soon as she walks out, that is what she intends to do today. >> I love her mojo. She's got a lot of energy. And back to the show, I mean, she's just an example of what I was saying. Like in every market shift, a new brand emerges. >> Chloe: Yep. >> I mean, even when Apple was tainted, they were about to shut down, they were going to run out of cash, when Steve Jobs brought back Apple, he consolidated and rebooted the company, the iPad was a seminal, iPod, a seminal moment. Then the iPhone, and just, the rest is history. That kind of disruption is coming. You're going to see that now. >> Oh, it's exciting though, isn't it? To be future ready, rather than future proof! But actually I wanted to ask you something as well, because we are seeing all these cloud players getting hot under the collar about telco. Why are they so excited? What's the buzz about wire, as you're on AWS and Google Cloud, why do they want to have a slice of the pie? >> Well, I think they're hot and heavy on the fact that telco is a ripe opportunity. And it used to be this boring, slow moving glacier. It's almost like global warming now, the icebergs are melting, and it's going to just change. And because of the edge, 5G is not a consumer wireless thing, it's not like a better phone. It's a commercial app opportunity, because it's high bandwidth. We've all been to concerts, or football games, or sporting events where a stadium is packed. Everyone gets bars on their wifi, but can't get out. Can't upload their picture to Instagram. Why? Because it's choking them on the network. That's where 5G solves a problem. It brings a lot of bandwidth, and that's going to bring the edge to life, and that's money. So when you got money, and greed, and power, changing hands, if it's on the table, and the wheel's spinning, it could be double zero, or it could be lucky seven. You don't know! >> Oh, for sure. And that's certainly enough to get all the big players hot and bothered about getting involved! And I suppose it circles back to the fact that DR is really leading the charge, and they're probably thinking, "Okay, what's going on here? This is different. We want something new." You did notice it, OpenRAN is something that we've been talking about over the last day or so. We've had quite a few of us speakers over here at Cloud City Live mention OpenRAN. What is it all about, Don? Because why all the buzz if 5G is such a hot topic? Why are we get excited about it? >> That's a great thing. The 5G certainly will drive the main trend, for sure. OpenRAN is essentially an answer to the fact that 5G is popular, and they need more infrastructure. So open source, the Linux Foundation, has been the driver for most of the open source software. So, they're trying to make open software, and open architectures, to create more entrepreneurial activity around hardware, and around infrastructure, because we need more infrastructure, we need more antennas, we need more transceivers, we need more devices. That could be open. So in order to do that, you got to open up the technology, and you want to minimize the licensing, and minimize a lot of these, you know, proprietary aspects. >> What did we look at? So on Wednesday, we've got a great keynote from Phillip Langlois, who is CEO and founder of P1 Security. And he's coming to talk to us about cybersecurity within the cloud, and within telco. So you just mentioned that OpenRAN is all about having open source, about having that space where we can share more efficiently and easily more easily. What does that mean for security though? Is it at risk? >> I think it's going to increase the value of security, and minimize the threats. Because open source, even though it's open, the more people that are working on it, the more secure it could be. So yes, it could be more open in a sense that could be explored by hackers, but open can also protect. And I think we've seen open source, and cloud in particular, be more secure. Because everyone said, cloud is not secure, open source is insecure. And as it turns out, when the collective hive minds of developers work on things, it gets secure. >> And it is interesting, isn't it? Because we have seen that there has been an uptick in cyber security threats, but actually I was speaking to some leaders across various industries, and particularly in tech, and they were saying, actually, there's not been an uptick in attempted threats, there's been an uptick because with this open-source environment, we are able to track them, and measure them, and defend more efficiently. So actually, they're being batted away. But the number is probably the same as it always was, we just didn't know about them before we had this open source environment. >> There's more money in threats, and there's more surface area. So as the tide rises, so to the threats. So on a net basis, it's more, because there's more volume, but it's pretty much the same. And look it, there's money involved, they are organized. There's a business model on attacking and getting the cash out of your bank, or ransomware is at an all time high. >> Yes! >> So this is like a big problem, and it's beyond the government. It's around individual freedom. So, security is huge. And I think open source and cloud are going to be, I think, the answer to that. >> Yeah, for sure. And it's, again, about collaboration, isn't it? Which we talk about all the time, but without collaboration, the industries are going to have to work together to promote this environment. So yeah, it should be good to talk with Phillip on Wednesday. >> I'd just say on security, don't download that PDF, if you don't know who it came from. The phishing is always good. Well, we got some great stuff coming up. We're going to have a great day. We got a video here of Mobile World Live. We're going to show this next segment, and we're going to toss it to a video. And this is really about to give the experience, Chloe, for people who aren't here. To get a feel for what's going on in Barcelona, and all the action. And if you look at the video, enjoy it. >> Hi, I'm Daniel Royston, CEO and founder of TelcoDR. But you can call me DR! Ready for some more straight talk about telco? It's go time! Let's do it. Holy shit! It sure is a great time to be a tech company! I mean, if you're Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Grab, Twilio, Door Dash, or Uber, life's pretty great! Just look at these stock prices over the past five years, with their shareholder value going up and to the right. Totally amazing! But where's telco? Dare I add our stocks to this awesome chart? Let's compare these fabulous tech stocks to AT&T, Vodafone, Telefonica, TIM, America Movil, and Zain Group. Huh. Not so great, right? Yep. I'm talking directly to you, senior telco execs. I'm here to wake you up! Why is it that Wall Street doesn't see you as tech? Why aren't CSPs seen as driving all the tech change? Why is it always Apple, Amazon and Google who get the big buzz? But more importantly, why isn't it you? Before I came to this industry, I always thought of carriers as tech companies. I gave more of my money to AT&T than to Apple, because I really cared about the quality of the network. But I also wondered why on earth the carriers allowed all the other tech companies to take center stage. After spending the last few years in telco, I now understand why. It's because you are network people, you are not customer people! I get it. You have the security blanket. You're a network oligopoly. It's crazy expensive to build a network, and it's expensive to buy spectrum. It takes operational chops to run a killer network, and it takes great skill to convince Wall Street to finance all of it. You telco execs are amazing at all those things. But because you focus on the network, it means you don't focus on the customer. And so far, you haven't had to. Every Telco's KPI is to be less shitty than their next competitor. You don't have to be the best. Just don't be last. Everyone else's NPS is in the thirties too. Their mobile app ratings are just as terrible as yours. Everyone's sucks at customer sat. And it's widely acknowledged and accepted. Let's talk about the cost of that. The cost is not measured on market share against other MNOs. The cost is measured in lost ARPU that the tech guys are getting. Everyone knows about the loss of texting to WeChat, WhatsApp, and the other OTT apps. But it is not just texting. The total adjustable market, or TAM, of the mobile app disruptors is huge! Instead of remaining network focused, you should be leveraging your network into a premier position. And because you're network people, I bet you think I'm talking about coercive network leverage. That is not what I'm talking about! I'm talking about love, customer love. There is one thing the highly valued tech companies all have in common. They all crush it on customer love! They look at every interaction with the customer and say, how do we make the customer love this? Like Netflix has easy monthly cancellation, Amazon does no questions asked returns, Uber gives users a real time view into driver rating and availability. Compare those ideas to the standard telco customer interaction. The highly valued tech companies don't have the network oligopoly to fall back on like you do. To survive, they must make customers love them. So, they focus on it in a big way! And it pays off. Their NPS is close to 70, and they have app ratings of 4.5 or higher. A far cry from your thirties NPS, and app ratings of 3.5. If you want to have those huge tech multiples for yourself, you have to start thinking about these guys as your new competition, not the other telcos in your market. The crazy thing is, if you give up using your network as a crutch, and put all of your focus on the customer, the network becomes an asset worth more than all the super apps. Let's step back and talk about the value of super apps, and becoming customer centered! Retooling around the customer is a huge change, so let's make sure it's worth it. We aren't talking about 25% improvement. I'm going to show you that if you become customer centric, you can double your ARPU, double your valuation multiples, and drive big shareholder value, just like the tech companies on that chart! Now let's talk about the customer focused super apps. There are hundreds of companies in a variety of categories vying for your subscribers' disposable income. Movies, food delivery, financial services. Who are they? And why does Wall Street give them such high valuations and like them so much? Well first, look at what they are telling Wall Street about their TAM. They broadcast ridiculously huge TAMs that are greater than the telco TAMs. You know, who should have a ridiculously huge TAM? You! Hello? What I'm saying is that if you got what's yours, you double in size. And if you take the TAMs they throw around, you'd be five times as big. When I think about the opportunity to double ARPU, without having to double the cap ex to build out the network, I say to myself, hell yeah! We should totally go do it, and do whatever it takes to go get it. For example, let's talk about Grab. Grab is a Southeast Asian super app company with an expected $40 billion valuation. Grab's customer focus started in Rideshare, but then leveraged its customer love into wallet deliveries, hospitality, and investing. Their ARPU is now larger than a Telco's ARPU in countries where they compete, and they have a higher valuation than those telcos too. Imagine if you could combine a great user experience with the valuable services that helped grow your ARPU. That would be huge! So, how do you build a super app? I bet right about now, you're wishing you had a super app. Everyone wants a super app! A lot of money has been unsuccessfully spent by telcos trying to build their own. I bet you're saying to yourself, "DR, your pie in the sky sounds great, but it has no chance of success." Well, I'm betting things are about to change. There is a public cloud startup called to Totogi that is going to help carriers build world-class super apps. To have a successful super app, there is one key metric you need to know. It is the KPI that determines if your super app will be a success or a flop. It's not about the daily active users. It's not the average order value. It's not even gross merchandise value. It's all about the frequency of use per day by the user. That's the metric that matters. How many have you used that metric in your telco apps? Do you have a team driving up user app interactions every day? Most telco apps are used for top-up, or to check a bill. This is a huge missed opportunity. Super app companies excel at building great experiences and driving a huge amount of interactions. They have to, their business depends on it. They have to be customer focused. They have to keep bringing the user back to the app, every day, multiple times a day. And you know what? They do a great job. Customers love their super apps. They have great user experiences. Like Apple credit cards, no information required application process. They have high net promoter scores because of customer friendly policies. Like how Door Dash retroactively credits fees when you move to a better plan. And they have great app store ratings, because they do simple things, like remember your last order, or allow you to use the app, rather than forced you to call customer service. Customers of successful super apps love it when new services are added. And because of the customer love, every time something is added to the app, customers adopt it immediately. New services drive frequent daily user interactions. So our problem in telco is we have an app that is only open once per month, not multiple times per day. And without frequent opens, there is no super app. Hm, what do we have in telco that we could use to help with this problem? I wonder. While you don't currently have a mobile app that subscribers use multiple times a day, you have something that's 10 times better! You have a network. Subscribers already interact with your network. 10 times more frequently than any user with any of the super apps. But telcos don't leverage those interactions into the insanely valuable engagements they could be. Worse, even if you wanted to, your crappy, over customized, on-premise solutions, make it impossible. Thankfully, there's this new tech that's come around, you may have heard of it, the public cloud. When you bring the enabling technology of the public cloud, you can turn your network interactions into valuable super app interactions. And there's a special new startup that's going to help you do it, Totogi! Totogi will leverage all those network interactions, and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Let me repeat that. Totogi will leverage all those network interactions, and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Totogi allows the carrier to leverage its network, and all the network interactions, into customer engagement. This is something that super apps don't have, but will wish they did. But this magic technology is not enough. Telcos also need to move from being network focused to being customer focused. Totogi enables telcos to chase exciting revenue growth without that annoying, massive cap ex investment. Totogi is going to help you transform your sucky mobile apps, with the crappy customer ratings, into something your subscribers want to open multiple times a day, and become a platform for growth. I'm so excited about Totogi, I'm investing $100,000,000 into it. You heard me right. $100,000,000. Is this what it feels like to be SoftBank? I'm investing into Totogi because it's going to enable telcos to leverage their network interactions into super app usage! Which will lead to an improved subscriber experience, and will give you a massive jump in your ARPU. And once you do that, all those telco valuations will go from down here, (buzzes lips) to up here. And so I've been talking to some folks, you know, checking in, feeling them out, getting their thoughts. And I've been asking them, what do you think about telcos building super apps? And the response has been, "Click. Eh." Everyone says, no way. Telcos can't do it. Zero chance. Total goose egg. (egg cracking) One suggested I build a bonfire with a hundred million dollars, because then at least I wouldn't waste years of my life. Well, I think those people are dead wrong! I do believe that telcos can build super apps and make them super successful. The public cloud is changing all parts of telco, and Totogi and super apps are fundamentally changing the customer relationships. In one month at MWC, people will see what Totogi has to offer, and they will understand why I'm making this bold call. Because Totogi takes the value of the network, and the power of the public cloud, to help telcos move from being network centric, to being customer centric. Boom! If you want to make this transformation and reap all the financial benefits, you will have to compete for customers with a whole new set of players. You will no longer compete with the network focused guys, like the other telcos. Instead, you will be competing against the customer focused companies. These players don't have a network to fall back on like your old competitors, they know they have to make customers love them. Their customer loyalty is so off the charts, their customers are called fans. So if you want that big money, you will have to compete on their turf, and make the customers want to choose you. You need Apple level loyalty. That bar is uber high. We'll have to give up the security blanket of the network, and change. Instead of NPS at the thirties, it needs to be in the seventies. Instead of mobile app ratings in the threes, they need to get five stars. I'm betting big that Totogi will make that possible! I'm going to help you every step of the way, starting with my keynote next month at MWC. Join me, and I'll share the secrets to converting your super valuable network interactions to make your super app a massive success. We're going to have an amazing time, and I can't wait to see you there! >> Okay. We're back here in theCUBE here at Mobile World Congress in Cloud City. I'm John Furrier. Chloe Richardson's filling in for Dave Vellante who's out on assignment. He's out getting all the data out there and getting stories. Chloe, what a great keynote by Danielle Royston. We just heard her involving major action, major pump you up, punch in the face, "Wake the heck up cloud people, cloud is here!" She didn't pull any punches. >> No, I mean the thing is, John, there's trillions of dollars on the table, and everyone seems to be fighting for it. >> And you heard her up there, if you're not on the public cloud, you're not going to get access to that money. It's a free for all. And I think the cloud people are like, they might think they're going to walk right in, and the telco industry is going to just give it up. >> No, of course. >> And it's not going to be, it's going to be a fight! Who will win? >> Who will win, but also who will build the next big thing? (John laughing) >> Someone needs to die in the media conversations. It's always a fight. Something's dead. Something's dead but keeps the living. All that kidding aside, this is really about partnering. Think what's happened is Telco's already acknowledged that they need to change. And the 5G edge conversation, the chip acceleration. Look at Apple. They've got their own processors, Nvidia, Amazon makes their own chips, Intel's pumping stuff out, you've got Qualcomm. You've got all these new things. So, the chips are getting faster, and the software's more open source. And I'm telling you, the cloud is just going to drive that bus right down Cloud Street, and it's going to be in Cloud City everywhere. >> And it's going to be peepin' on the board as it drives down. (John laughing) John, I'm not a stalker, but I have read some of the things that you've written, and one of the things you mentioned that was really interesting was the difference between building and operating. Break it down for me, what does that mean? >> That means basically in mature markets, and growing markets, things behave differently, and certainly economics, and the people, and the makeup, and the mindset. So the telco has been kind of this mature market, it's been changing and growing, but not like radically. Cost optimization, make profit. You know, to install a lot of cable, you got to get the rents out of that infrastructure. And that's kind of gone on for too long. Cloud is a growth market. And it's about building, not just operating. And you've got operators, carriers are operating networks. So you're going to see the convergence of operators and builders coming together. Builders being software developers, new technology, and executives that think about building. And you want people on your team that are going to be, I won't say war time, you know, lieutenants or generals, but people who can handle the pace of change. Because the change and the nature is different. And some people want slow and steady, keep the boat from rocking. But in a growth market, it's turbulent, and the ride might not be quiet, first-class ticket to paradise. It's bumpy, but it's thrilling. >> No, of course. Is it similar to the old sales adage of hunter versus farmer? Are there parallels there? >> Yeah. I mean, there's a mindset. If you have a team of people that aren't knocking down new opportunities and building the next big thing, fixing your house, get your house in order, you know, refactor, reset, reboot, replatform with the cloud, and then refactor your business! If you don't have the people thinking like that, you're probably either going to be taken over, or go out of business. And that's what the telcos with all these assets, they're going to get bought, rolled into a SPAC, Special Purpose Acquisition Company, which is super hot in the United States. A lot of roll-ups going on with private equity. So a lot of these telcos, if they don't refactor, or replatform then refactor, they're going to be toast, and they're going to get rolled up, and eaten up by somebody else. >> Yeah, sure. It's interesting though, isn't it? Because when we think of telco in tech, we often think of, obviously we've got the triad, people, process, technology, and we think, process and technology really to the forefront here. But like you said there, people are also so important because if you don't have this right balance, you're not going to be able to drive that change. We had, obviously, Scott Brighton on the stage yesterday, and after his session, somebody came up to me and just said, "I'm interested to hear what that means for education." So how can we establish this new generation of tech and telco leaders from the grassroots with educational associations, establishments. How can we encourage that? I wonder, is this something that you talk about? >> Yeah. I mean, education's huge, and this highlights the change that telco's now part of. Telco used to be a boring industry that ran the networks, or moving packets around, and mobile was there. But once the iPhone came out in 2007, the life has changed, society has changed, education's changed, how people interact has changed. So, you start to see people now aware of the value. And if you look at during COVID, the internet didn't crash, the telcos actually saved our asses, and everyone survived because the network didn't break. Yeah, we had some bad Zoom meetings here and there, and some teleconferences that didn't go well, but for the most part we survived, and they really saved everybody. So, they should get kudos for that. But now they're dependent upon healthcare, education. People care about that stuff, so now you're going to start to see an elevated focus on what telecom is doing. That's why the edge has got trillions of dollars up for grabs. But education, there's negative unemployment in cybersecurity and in cloud. So for the people who say, "Oh, there's no jobs." Or, "I can't work." That's a bunch of BS, because you can just get online, get on YouTube, and just get a degree. You can get a degree. You can get an Amazon job. It pays a hundred thousand dollars a year! American. You can make a hundred thousand pounds, and be unemployed six months, and then be employed. So negative unemployment means, there's more jobs than people to fill them all, in fact. >> Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned that, because I was talking to a cyber security leader who was saying in something, I think there were now 3 million vacancies in cybersecurity. And there's such a skill shortage. There is nobody around to fill it! So it's an interesting problem to have, isn't it? Because it's reversed to what we've been used to for the last few decades! And obviously, telco is in the same space. But what can we do about it do you think, to actually -- >> I think it's going to take leadership, and I'm a big proponent of kids not going to university if they don't have to. Why spend the dough, money, if you don't have to? You can get online. I mean, the data's there. But to me, it's the relationships, the mentorship. You're starting to see a women in tech, and underrepresented minorities in the tech field, where mentorship is more important than curriculum. Community is more important than just going through a linear courseware. Nobody wants to sit online and go through linear courseware. Now, if they have to get a certificate, or degree, and accreditation, no problem. But the communities are out there, so that's a big change over, I'm a big fan of that. And I think people should, you know, get some specialized skills. You can get that online, so why even go to school? So, people are figuring that out. >> For sure. And also, even transferring. I mean, so many skills are transferable nowadays, aren't they, so we could easily be talking to people from other industries, and bringing them into telco, and saying, "Look, bring what you know from your retail background, or your healthcare background, and help us at telco to, again, drive forwards." Just like DR was saying, it's all about the next big thing. >> Well, Danielle is always also driving a lot of change. And if you think about the jobs, and the pedigree of going to a university, oh, Harvard, all the big Ivy Leagues, Oxford in your area. So it's like, if you go to the school like that, and you get a pedigree, you instantly get a job. Now the jobs that are available weren't around five years ago, so there's no like pedigree or track record. There's no like, everyone's equal. >> Yeah. >> So you could, the democratization of the internet now, from a job standpoint, is people are leveling up faster. So it's not about the Ivy League, or the big degree, or silver spoon in your mouth, you've got the entitlement. So you start to see people emerging and making things happen. Entrepreneurship in America, immigrant entrepreneurship. People are billionaires that have no high school diplomas! >> It's interesting you mention that, John, because we can't have more than five years experience in this space, we know that. But in telco, there is a problem. And maybe it's, again, it's a flipped problem where telco recruiters, or talent acquisition leaders, are now asking for kind of 10, 20 years experience when they're sending out job descriptions. So does that mean that we are at fault for not being able to fill all these vacancies? >> I think that's just, I mean I think there's a transition of the new skill set happening, one. But two, I think, you know, to be like a chip engineer, (laughs) you can't learn that online. But if you want to run a cloud infrastructure, you can. But I think embedded systems is an area that I was talking to an engineer, there's a huge shortage of engineers who code on the microprocessors, on the chips. So, embedded systems is a big career. So there's definitely paths you can specialize. Space is another area you've seen a lot of activity on. You see Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk is going to be here on a virtual keynote, trying to go to Mars. And you know, Danielle Royston always says, "What's going to happen first, Mars colony, or telco adopting public cloud?" And some people think Mars will happen first, but. >> What do you think, John? >> I think Telco's going to get cloud. I mean first of all, public cloud is now hybrid cloud, and the edge, this whole internet edge, 5G, is so symbolic and so important, because it's an architectural beachhead. And that's where the trillion dollar baby is. So, the inside baseball, and the inside money, and all the investors are focusing on the edge, because whoever can command the edge, wins all the dollars. So everyone kind of knows, it's a public secret, and it's fun to watch everyone jockey for the positions. >> Yeah no, it really is. But it's also quite funny, isn't it? Because the edge is almost where we were decades ago, but we're putting the control back in the hands of consumers. So, it's an interesting flip. And I wonder if, with the edge, we can really enhance this acceleration of product development, this efficiency, this frictionless system in which we live in. And also, I've heard you say hybrid a few times, John. >> John: Yeah. >> Is hybrid going to be the future of the world no matter what industry you're in? >> Hybrid is everything now. So, we're the hybrid CUBE, we've got hybrid cloud. >> Exactly. >> You got hybrid telco, because now you've got the confluence of online and offline coming together. That is critical dynamic! And you're seeing it. Like virtual reality, for instance, now you're seeing things, I know you guys are doing some great work at your company around creating experiences that are virtual. You got, companies like Roblox went public recently. Metaverse. It's a good time to be in that business, because experiential human relations are coming. So, I think that's going to be powered by 5G. You know, gamers. So, all good stuff. Chloe, great to be with you here on theCUBE, and we're looking forward to seeing your main stage. >> Great. >> And then we're going to send it back to the studio, Adam, and the team. We're waiting for DR to arrive here in Cloud City. And this is theCUBE, from Cloud City, back to you, Adam, and the studio.

(upbeat music) >> Okay, thanks Adam in the studio. We're here on the floor in Cloud City, right in the middle of all the action. The keynotes are going on in the background, it's a packed house. I'm John Furrier. Dave Vellante is on assignment, digging in, getting those stories. He'll have the analysis, he'll be back on theCUBE but I want to welcome Chloe Richardson, who has been holding down the main stage here in Cloud City, with amazing content that she's been hosting. Chloe, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE and kicking it up day two with me. >> No, not at all. Thank you for having me. It's very exciting. I love what you guys have got over here, very fun. >> We're inside theCUBE. This is where all the action is. And also the Cloud City is really changing the game. If you look at what's going on here in Cloud City, it's pretty spectacular. >> Know, I mean the atmosphere is absolutely palpable, isn't it? You can just feel as people walk in and see what the future looks like to the Telecoms industry, it's very exciting. >> And you've been doing a great job on the main stage. We've been really loving your content. Let's get into some of the content here. Actually the keynote is going on, we're going to have DR, maybe fly by the set later, we're going to check that up. But let's check out this videotape of, this is TelcoDR. You got to check out this reel and we'll be right back, we'll talk about it. (upbeat music) >> TelcoDR burst onto the global telecom scene this year, making headlines for taking over the huge Erickson's space at MWC21. And for building Cloud City in just a hundred days. But why did the company go to such trouble? And what is the unique offering to the telecoms industry? And what drives their dynamic CEO, Danielle Royston or DR as everyone calls her? Cloud City Live caught up with DR, away from the hustle and bustle of the city to find out. (upbeat music) >> Hi, I'm Danielle Royston, coming to you from beautiful Barcelona. I'm here for MWC21. About a hundred days ago, I decided to take over the iconic Erickson booth to turn it into Cloud City. Cloud City has over 30 vendors and 70 demos to introduce telco to what I think is the future for our industry. We're going to have three awesome experiences. We're going to talk about the new subscriber experience, we're going to talk about what's in store for the new network and the future of work. I'm really excited to create a community and invite awesome telco executives to see this new future. It's been a really tough 18 months, and we didn't know what MWC21 was going to be like in terms of attendance. And so from the get go we plan this amazing experience that we call, Cloud City Live. At Cloud City Live, we have two main components. We have the speaker series where we have over 50 speakers from Amazon, Google, Microsoft, as well as CSPs and awesome vendors talking about the public cloud in telco. The second part of Cloud City Live, is theCUBE. Think of this as like an ESPN desk of awesome tech interviews focused on telco and the public cloud hosted by John Furrier and Dave Vellante. Dave and John are going to talk to a variety of guests, focused on telco and the public cloud. It's a great way for our virtual participants to feel like they're at the show, experiencing what's going on here. So excited to have them as part of the Cloud City booth. There's a ton of innovation going on in telco. And 20 years ago, Elon Musk set on his mission to Mars. I, like Elon Musk, I'm on a quest to take telco to the public cloud. Every year at MWC, there's always a flurry of announcements and this year is no different. At this year's MWC, Totogi, a startup that I invested a hundred million dollars in, will be launching. Totogi is introducing two products to the market, this week at MWC. The first is a planetary scale charger. More than a charger, it's an engagement coupling dual network data with charging information to drive subscriber engagement and doubling your ARPU. The second product that Totogi is introducing, is a planetary scale BSS system built on top of the TM forum, open APIs. Both of these products will be available for viewing in the virtual booth, as well as on the show for. The public cloud is an unstoppable mega trend that's coming to telco. I'm super excited to bring to you, the vendors, the products, the demonstrations, and the speakers, both to people here in Barcelona and virtually around the world. (upbeat music) >> Well, that was a fascinating insight into the origins of TelcoDR, why public cloud is going to truly disrupt the telecoms industry and why DR herself is so passionate about it. If you'd like to find out more, come and see us at Cloud City. (upbeat music) >> Okay, thanks. Just roll on that reel. Chloe, I mean, look at that reel. I mean, DR, Danielle Royston, she's a star and I've seen a lot of power players in the industry. She's got guts and determination, and she's got a vision and she's not just, you know, making noise about telco and cloud, there's actually a lot of real good vision there. I mean, it's just so impressive. >> No, really isn't. And for me, it's almost like the next moonshot. It's the moonshot of the telco world. She's innovative, she's exciting and if we've learned anything over the last 18 months is that we need to in this industry to grow and for the future of the industry. So, it's so exciting. I think she's a real inspiration. >> And I love the fact that she's so, takes a tiger by the tail, because the telco industry is being disrupted. She's just driving the bus here and I remember I did a story on Teresa Carlson, who was with Amazon web services, she was running the public sector and she was doing the same exact thing in that public sector world in DC and around the world. She opened up regions in Bahrain, which as a woman, that was an amazing accomplishment. And she wasn't just a woman, she was just a power player. And she was exceptional leader. I see DR doing the same thing and people aren't going to like that, I'll tell you right now. People are going to be like, whoa, what's going on here? >> And of course, it's always the way we pioneers though, isn't it? At the time people thinking what's going, we don't like change, why are we being shaken up. But actually afterwards, in retrospect, they think, oh, okay, I see why that happened and we needed it. So really exciting stuff. >> Making things happen, that's what we're doing here in theCUBE. Obviously the main stage's doing a great job. Let's go check out this highlight reel. If you're watching and you miss some of the action, this is, I'll see the physical event back since 2019 in February, but there's also a Hybrid event. A lot of virtual action going on. So you got theCUBE virtual, you got a lot of content on virtual sites, but in person here, we're going to go show you a highlight reel from what we did yesterday, what was happening around the show? Enjoy this quick highlight reel from yesterday. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Okay. We're back here in theCUBE. We're the main floor out here with Chloe Richardson, who is emceeing, hosting and driving the content on the Cloud City main stage. Chloe, it's been great here. I mean, so far day one, I was watching your presentations and inspire site chats you've been hosting. Awesome content. I mean, people are like jazzed up. >> Yeah, I know for sure. We had Scott Brighton on yesterday, who was our opening keynote on the live stage. And his session was all about the future of work, which is so relevant and so pertinent to now. And he talked about the way it's changing and in 10 years it's going to be a trillion dollar industry to be in the cloud at work. So really interesting. I mean, yeah, the atmosphere here is great, everyone's excited, there's new content everyday. And that's the thing, it's not stale content. It's stuff that people want to hear. People are here for the new hot trends, the new hot topics. Really exciting. >> Yeah, the next big thing. And also it's a fiscal event. So since 2019, this Mobile World Congress has been a massive event and hasn't happened since February, 2019. That's a lot of time that's elapsed in the industry cause of COVID and people are glad to be here, but a lot of stuff's changed. >> Yeah, it's a different world, right? I mean, two years in the telco industry is like a hundred years elsewhere. Everything has changed, digital transformation migration, obviously cloud, which is what we're talking about over here at Cloud City Live. I'm wondering though John, I'd like to pick your brains on something. >> Sure. >> It has changed in the last two years, we know that, but what about the future of Mobile World Congress? How do you see it changing in the next few years? >> Oh man, that's a great question. I mean, my observation, I've been coming to the show for a very long time, over a decade and a half, and it's been a nerdy show about networks and telecom, which is basically radios and wireless and then mobile. It's very global, a lot of networks, but now it's evolving and many people are saying, and we were talking on theCUBE yesterday, Dave Vellante was commenting that this show is turning into a consumer like show. So CES is the big consumer electronics show in the US, in Las Vegas every year. This show has got a vibe because what's all the technology from the cloud players and from the chips, are getting smaller, faster, cheaper, more capability, lower power. So if you look at the chips, the hardware, it's less about the speeds and feeds. It's more about the consumer experience. You got cars. I was talking to a guy yesterday, he said, "Vehicle e-commerce is coming." I'm like, "What the hell his vehicle e-commerce?" And you could be on your app, driving down the freeway and go, "Hey, I want some food." Instead of having it delivered to you, if you order it you pick it up. So that's kind of can be happening now in real time, you can do all kinds of other things. so a lot of new things are happening. >> Yeah, I think so. Do you see that as another disruption for the industry that is the fact that it's moving to be more consumer focused? Is that anything we should be worried about in that space? >> Well I think the incumbents are going to lose their position. So I think in any new shift, new brands come in out of nowhere. >> For sure. >> And it's the people that you don't think about. It's the company that's not, that you don't see. And we got DR on the main stage right here, look at this. You saw her walk out with the confidence of a pro. She just walked out there and she's not afraid. >> No. Well, as she said in her video, she is ready to wake them up and you can see as soon as she worked out. That is what she intends to do. >> I love her mojo, she's got a lot of energy. And back to the show, I mean, she's just an example of what I was saying. Like in every market shift, a new brand emerges. >> Yep. >> I mean, even when apple was tainted, they were about to shut down, they were going to run out of cash. When Steve Jobs brought back apple, he consolidated and rebooted the company. The iPad was a similar moment, then the iPhone and just the rest is history. That kind of disruption's coming. You're going to see that here. >> Yeah. Oh, it's exciting though isn't it? To be future ready rather than future proof but actually I wanted to ask you something as well, because we are seeing all these cloud players getting hot under the collar about telco. Why are they so excited? What's the buzz about why, as you're in MWS and Google Cloud? Why do they want to have a slice of the pie? >> Well, I think they're hot, hot and heavy on the fact that telco is a ripe opportunity and it used to be this boring, slow moving glacier. >> Okay. >> It's almost like global warming now. The icebergs are melting and it's going to just change and because of the edge, 5G is not a consumer wireless thing. It's not like a better phone, it's a commercial app opportunity cause it's high bandwidth. We've all been to concerts or football games or sporting events where a stadium is packed. Everyone gets bars on their wifi, but can't get out, can't upload their pictures on Instagram. Why? Because it's choking them in the network. That's where 5G solves the problem. It brings a lot of bandwidth and that's going to bring the edge to life and that's money. So when you got money and greed and power changing hands, it's every, it's on the table and the wheel's spinning, and it could be double zero, or it could be lucky seven. You don't know. >> Yeah, for sure. And that's certainly enough to get all the big players hot and bothered about getting involved. And I suppose it circles back to the fact that, DR is really leading the charge and they're probably thinking, okay, what's going on here? This is different, we want something new. You didn't know it's an open run or something that we've been talking about over the last day or so. We've had quite a few of us speakers over here constantly. I've mentioned open run. What is it all about John? Because why all the bars, if 5G is such a hot topic? Why are we getting excited about it? >> That's a great thing. 5G certainly is Google Drive the main trend for sure. OpenRent is essentially an answer to the fact that 5G is popular and they need more infrastructure. So open source, the Linux Foundation has been the driver for most of the open source software. So they're trying to bring software and open architectures to create more entrepreneurial activity around hardware and around infrastructure because we need more infrastructure. We need more antennas, we need more transceivers, we need more devices that could be open. So in order to do that, you got to open up the technology and you want to minimize the licensing and minimize a lot of these, you know, proprietary aspects. >> What if we look at, so on Wednesday, we've got a great keynote from Philippe Langlois, who is CEO and founder of P1 Security. And he's coming to talk to us about cybersecurity within the cloud and within telco. So you just mentioned that. Open mind, it's all about having open source, about having that space where we can share more efficiently and easy, more easily. What does that mean for security though? Is it a risk? >> I think that's going to increase the value of security and minimize the threats. Because open source, even though it's open, the more people that are working on it, the more secure it could be. So yes, it could be more open in sense that could be explored by hackers, but it can be open to also protect. And I think we've seen open source and cloud in particular be more secure because everyone said, "Cloud is not secure, open source is not secure." And as it turns out when the collective hive minds of developers work on things, it gets secure. >> And it is interesting, isn't it? Because we have seen that there has been an uptick in cyber security and threats. But actually I was speaking to some leaders in across various industries and particularly in tech. And they were saying, "Actually there's not been an uptick in attempted threats, there's been an uptick because with this open source environment. We are able to track them and measure them and defend more efficiently. So actually they're being battered away, but the number is probably the same as it always was. We just didn't know about them before we had this open source environment. >> There's more money in threats and there's more surface area. So as the tide rises, so do the threats. So on a net basis it's more because there's more volume, but it's pretty much the same. And look at it, there's money involved, they're organized, there's a business model on attacking and getting the cash out of your bank or ransomwares at an all time high. So this is like a big problem and it's beyond the government, it's our individual freedom. So security its huge and I think open source and cloud are going to be, I think the answer to that. >> Yeah, for sure. And it's again about collaboration, isn't it? Which we talk about all the time but without collaboration that the industries aren't going to have to work together to promote this environment. So yeah, it should be good to talk with Phillip on Wednesday. >> I just say in security, don't download that PDF if you don't know who came from. The fishing is always good. Well, we got some great stuff coming up. We're going to have a great day. We got a video here on Mobile World Live, we're going to show this next segment and we're going to toss it to a video. And this is really about to give the experience Chloe, for people who aren't here, right? >> Yeah. >> To get a feel for what's going on in Barcelona and all the actions. And if you look at the video, enjoy it. >> Hi, I'm Danielle Royston, CEO and founder of TelcoDr, but you can call me DR. Ready for some more straight talk about telco? It's go time, let's do it. Holy shit. It sure is a great time to be a tech company. I mean, if you're Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Grab, Twilio, DoorDash or Uber, life's pretty great. Just look at these stock prices over the past five years with their shareholder value going up into the right. Totally amazing. But where's telco? There I add our stocks to this awesome chart. Let's compare these fabulous tech stocks to AT&T, Vodafone, Telefonica, Tim, America Movil and Zain group. Huh, not so great, right? Yep. I'm talking directly to you senior telco execs. I'm here to wake you up. Why is it that Wall Street doesn't see you as tech? Why aren't CSPs seen as driving all the tech change? Why is it always Apple, Amazon and Google who get the big buzz? But more importantly, why isn't it you? Before I came to this industry, I always thought of carriers as tech companies. I gave more of my money to AT&T and to Apple because I really cared about the quality of the network. But I also wondered why on earth, the carriers allowed all the other tech companies to take center stage. After spending the last few years in telco, I now understand why. It's because you are network people, you are not customer people. I get it, you have the security blanket, you're a network oligopoly. It's crazy expensive to build a network and it's expensive to buy spectrum. It takes operational chops to run a killer network and it takes great skill to convince Wall Street, to finance all of it. You telco execs are amazing at all those things, but because you focus on the network, it means you don't focus on the customer. And so far you haven't had to. Every telco's KPI is to be less shitty than their next competitor. You don't have to be the best, just don't be last. Everyone else's NPS, is in the thirties too. Their mobile app ratings are just as terrible as yours. Everyone's sucks at customer sat and it's widely acknowledged and accepted. Let's talk about the cost of that. The cost is not measured on market share against other MNOs. The cost is measured in lost ARPU that the tech guys are getting. Everyone knows about the loss of texting, to WeChat, WhatsApp and the other OTT apps, but it is not just texting. The total adjustable market or term of the mobile app disruptors is huge. Instead of remaining network focused, you should be leveraging your network into a premier position. And because you're a network people, I bet you think I'm talking about coercive network leverage. That is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about love, customer love. There is one thing the highly valued tech companies all have in common. They all crush it on customer love. They look at every interaction with the customer and say, "How do we make the customer love this?" Like Netflix has easy monthly cancellation, Amazon does no questions asked returns, Uber gives users a real time view into driver rating and availability. Compare those ideas to the standard telco customer interaction. The highly valued tech companies, don't have the network oligopoly to fall back on like you do. To survive they must make customers love them. So they focus on it in a big way and it pays off. Their NPS is close to 70 and they have app ratings of 4.5 or higher. A far cry from your thirties NPS and app ratings of 3.5. If you want to have those huge tech multiples for yourself, you have to start thinking about these guys as your new competition, not the other telcos in your market. The crazy thing is, if you give up using your network as a crutch and put all of your focus on the customer, the network becomes an asset worth more than all the super apps. Let's step back and talk about the value of super apps and becoming customer centric. Retooling around the customer is a huge change. So let's make sure it's worth it. We aren't talking about 25% improvement. I'm going to show you that if you become customer centric, you can double your ARPU, double your valuation multiples and drive big shareholder value just like the tech companies on that chart. Now let's talk about the customer focused super apps. There are hundreds of companies and a variety of categories vying for your subscriber's disposable income. Movies, food delivery, financial services, who are they? And why does Wall Street give them such high evaluations and like them so much? Well first, look at what they are telling Wall Street about their TAM. They broadcast ridiculously huge TAMs that are greater than the telco TAMs. You know, who should have a ridiculously huge TAM? You. Hello. What I'm saying is that if you got what's yours, you double in size. And if you take the TAAMs they throw around, you'll be five times as big. When I think about the opportunity to double ARPU, without having to double the CapEx, to build out the network, I say to myself, "Hell yeah, we should totally go do it and do whatever it takes to go get." For example, let's talk about Grab. Grab is a southeast Asian super app company with an expected $40 billion valuation. Grab's customer focused started in rideshare, but then leverage its customer love into wallet deliveries, hospitality, and investing. Their ARPU is now larger than a telco's ARPU in countries where they compete, and they have a higher valuation than those telcos too. Imagine if you could combine a great user experience with a valuable services that helped grow your ARPU, that would be huge. So how do you build a super app? I bet right about now, you're wishing you had a super app. Everyone wants a super app. A lot of money has been unsuccessfully spent by telcos trying to build their own. I bet you're saying to yourself, "DR, your pie in the sky sounds great but it has no chance of success." Well, I'm betting things are about to change. There is a public cloud startup called Totogi that is going to help carriers build world class super apps. To have a successful super app, there is one key metric you need to know. It is the KPI that determines if your super app will be a success or a flop. It's not about the daily active users, it's not the average order value, it's not even gross merchandise value. It's all about the frequency of use per day by the user, that's the metric that matters. How many of you use that metric in your telco apps? Do you have a team driving up user app interactions every day? Most telco apps are used for top up or to check a bill. This is a huge missed opportunity. Super app companies excel at building great experiences and driving a huge amount of interactions. They have to, their business depends on it. They have to be customer focused. They have to keep bringing the user back to the app, every day, multiple times a day. And you know what? They do a great job. Customers love their super apps. They have great user experiences like Apple credit cards, no information required, application process. They have high net promoter scores because of customer friendly policies, like how DoorDash retroactively credits fees when you move to a better plan. And they have great app store ratings because they do simple things like remember your last order, or allow you to use the app rather than force you to call customer service. Customers of successful super apps love it when new services are added. And because of the customer love, every time something is added to the app, customers adopt it immediately. New services drive frequent daily user interactions. So our problem in telco is we have an app that is only open once per month, not multiple times per day. And without frequent opens, there is no super app. What do we do we have in telco that we could use to help with this problem? I wonder, why you don't currently have a mobile app that subscribers use multiple times a day. You have something that's 10 times better. You have a network. Subscribers already interact with your network 10 times more frequently than any user with any of the super apps. But telcos don't leverage those interactions into the insanely valuable engagements they could be. Worse, even if you wanted to your crappy over customized on premise solutions, make it impossible. Thankfully, there's this new tech that's come around, you may have heard of it. The public cloud. When you bring the enabling technology of the public cloud, you can turn your network interactions into valuable super app interactions. And there's a special new startup that's going to help you do it, Totogi. Totogi will leverage all those network interactions and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Let me repeat that. Totogi will leverage all those network interactions and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Totogi allows the carrier to leverage its network and all the network interactions into customer engagement. This is something the super apps don't have but will wish they did. But this magic technology is not enough. Telcos also need to move from being network focus to being customer focused. Totogi enables telcos to chase exciting revenue growth without that annoying massive CapEx investment. Totogi is going to help you transform your sucky mobile apps with the crappy customer ratings, into something your subscribers want to open multiple times a day and become a platform for growth. I'm so excited about Totogi, I'm investing $100 million into it. You heard me right, $100 million. Is this what it feels like to be soft bank? I'm investing in Totogi because it's going to enable telcos to leverage the network interactions into super app usage. Which will lead to an improved subscriber experience and will give you a massive jump in your ARPU. And once you do that, all those Telco valuations will go from down here to up here. And so I've been talking to some folks, you know, checking in, feeling them out, getting their thoughts, and I've been asking them, what do you think about telcos building super apps? And the response has been, click, everyone says, "No way, telcos can't do it." Zero chance, total goose egg. One suggested I build a bonfire with 100 million dollars, because then at least I wouldn't waste years of my life. Well I think those people are dead wrong. I do believe that telcos can build super apps and make them super successful. The public cloud is changing all parts of telco and Totogi and super apps are fundamentally changing, the customer relationships. In one month at MWC, people will see what Totogi has to offer, and they will understand why I'm making this bold call. Because the Totogi takes the value of the network and the power of the public cloud to help telcos move from being network centric, to being customer centric. Boom! If you want to make this transformation and reap all the financial benefits, you will have to compete for customers with a whole new set of players. You will no longer compete with the network focus guys like the other telcos, instead you will be competing against the customer focused companies. These players don't have a network to fall back on like your old competitors. They know they have to make customers love them. Their customer loyalty is so off the charts, their customers are called fans. So if you want that big money, you will have to compete on their turf and make the customers want to choose you, you need Apple level loyalty. That bar is uber high. We will have to give up the security blanket of the network and change. Instead of NPS of the thirties, it needs to be in the 70s. Instead of mobile app ratings in the threes, they need to get five stars. I'm betting big that Totogi will make that possible. I'm going to help you every step of the way, starting with my keynote next month at MWC. Join me and I'll share the secrets to converting your super valuable network interactions to make your super app a massive success. We're going to have an amazing time and I can't wait to see you there. >> Okay. We're back here in theCUBE here at Mobile World Congress in Cloud City. I'm John Furrier, Chloe Richardson filling it for Dave Vellante who's out on assignment. He's out getting all the data out there and getting stories. Chloe, what a great keynote by Danielle Royston. We just heard her and while with major action, major pump me up, punch in the face, wake the heck up cloud people, cloud is here. She didn't pull any punches. >> No, I mean the thing is John, there's trillions of dollars on the table and everyone seems to be fighting for it. >> And you heard her up there, if you're not on the public cloud, you're not going to get access to that money. It's a free for all. And I think the cloud people are like, they might think they're going to walk right in and the telco industry is going to just give it up. >> No, of course. >> There's not going to be, it's going to be a fight, who will win. >> Who will win but also who will build the next big thing? >> Someone needs to die in the media conversation, it's always a fight, something's dead, something's dead but keeps the living. All that kidding aside, this is really about partnering. I think what's happened is, telco's already acknowledged that they need to change in the 5G edge conversation, the chip acceleration. Look at Apple, they've got their own processors, Nvidia, Amazon makes their own chips, Intel's pumping stuff out, you've got Qualcomm, you've got all these new things. So the chips are getting faster and the software's more open source and I'm telling you, cloud is just going to drive that bus right down clouds street and it's going to be in Cloud City everywhere. >> And it's going to be peeping on the board as it drives down. John, I'm not a stalker, but I have read some of the things that you've written. And one of the things you mentioned that was really interesting was the difference between building and operating. Break it down for me. What does that mean? >> That means basically in mature markets and growing markets things behave differently and certainly economics and the people and the makeup and the mindset. >> Okay. >> So the telco has been kind of this mature market. It's been changing and growing but not like radically. Cost optimization, make profit, you know, install a lot of cable. You got to get the rents out of that infrastructure and that's kind of gone on for too long. Cloud is a growth market, and it's about building, not just operating and you've got operators, carriers are operating networks. So you're going to see the convergence of operators and builders coming together, builders being software developers, new technology and executives that think about building. And you want people on your team that are going to be, I won't say war time, you know, lieutenants or generals, but people who can handle the pace of change. >> Okay. >> Because the change and the nature is different. And some people want slow and steady, keep the boat from rocking, but in a growth market, it's turbulent and ride might not be quiet, first class ticket to paradise, but it's bumpy, but it's thrilling. >> No, of course. Is it similar to the old sales adage of hunter versus farmer and the parallels? >> Yeah. I mean, the mindset. If you have a team of people that aren't knocking down new opportunities and building the next big thing, fixing your house, get your house in order, you know, refactor, reset, reboot, re platform with the cloud and then refactor your business. If you don't have the people thinking like that, you're probably either going to be taken over or go out of business. And that's what the telco with all these assets, they're going to get bought roll into a SPAC, special purpose acquisition company was a super hot in the United States. A lot of roll ups going on with Private equity. So a lot of these telcos, if they don't refactor or re platform, then refactor, they're going to be toast and they're going to get rolled up and eaten up by somebody else. >> Yeah, sure. It's interesting though, isn't it? Because when we think of telco in tech, we often think of, obviously we've got the triad. People process technology, and we think process and technology really take the forefront here but like you said there, people are also so important because if you don't have this right balance, you're not going to be able to drive that change. We had, obviously Scott Brighton on the stage yesterday and after his session, somebody came up to me and just said, "I'm interested to hear what that means for education." So how can we establish this new generation of tech and telco leaders from the grassroots with educational associations establishments? How can we encourage that? I wonder, is this something that you talk about often? >> Yeah. I mean, education is huge and this highlights the change that telcos now part of. Telco used to be a boring industry that ran the networks, or moving packets around and mobile was there, but once the iPhone came out in 2007, the life has changed, society has changed, education's changed, how people interact has changed. So you start to see people now aware of the value and if you look at the, during the COVID, the internet didn't crash, the telcos actually saved our asses and everyone was, survive because the network didn't break. Yeah, we had some bad zoom meetings here and there and some teleconferences that didn't go well but for the most part we survived and they really saved everybody, my goodness. So they should get kudos for that. But now they're dependent upon healthcare, education, people care about that stuff. So now you're going to start to see an elevated focus on what telecom is doing. That's why The Edge has checked trillions of dollars up for grabs. But education, there's negative unemployment in cybersecurity and in cloud. So for the people who say, oh, there's no jobs or I can't work, that's a bunch of BS because you can just get online, get on YouTube and just get a degree. You can get a degree, you can get an Amazon job, it pays a hundred thousand dollars a year, American. You can make a hundred thousand pounds and be unemployed six months and then be employed. So negative unemployment means there's more jobs than people to fill them qualify. >> Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned that because I was talking to a cyber security leader who was saying in some of the things there were now 3 million vacancies in cybersecurity and there's such a skill shortage, there is nobody around to fill it. So it's an interesting problem to have isn't it? Cause it's reversed to what we've been used to for the last few decades and obviously telco is in the same space. What can we do about it? Do you think it will actually bring people in? >> I think it's going to take leadership and I'm a big proponent of kids not going to university, they don't have to. Why spend the dough, money if you don't have to? You can get online. I mean, the data's there, but to me it's the relationships, the mentorship. You starting to see women in tech and underrepresented minorities in the tech field, where mentorship is more important than curriculum. Community is more important than just going through a linear course where nobody wants to sit online and go through linear courseware. Now, if they have to get a certificate or degree and accreditation no problem, but communities are out there. So that's a big change over, I'm a big fan of that and I think people should, you know, get some specialized skills, you can get that online. So why even go to school? So people are figuring that out. >> For sure. And also even transferring, I mean, so many skills are transferable nowadays, aren't there? So we could easily be talking to people from other industries and bringing them into telco and saying, look, bring what you know from your retail background or your healthcare background and help us at telco to again, drive forward, just like DR is saying it's all about the next big thing. >> Danielle, I was also driving a lot of change and if you think about the jobs and a pedigree of going to a university, oh, Harvard, all the big Ivy leagues, Oxford in your area. So it's like, if you go to a school like that and you get a pedigree, you instantly get a job. Now, the jobs that are available, weren't around five years ago. So there's no like pedigree or track record, there's no like, everyone's equal. >> Yeah. >> So you could, the democratization of the internet now is, from a job standpoint is, people are leveling up faster. So it's not about the Ivy league or the big degree or silver spoon in your mouth, you've got the entitlement. So you start to see people emergent and make things happen, entrepreneurship in America, immigrant entrepreneurship. People are billionaires that have no high school diplomas. >> It's interesting you mentioned that John, because we can have more than five years experience in this space, we know that but in telco there is a problem and maybe it's, again it's a flipped problem where, telco recruiters or talent acquisition leaders, are now asking for kind of 10, 20 years experience when they're sending out job descriptions. So does that mean that we are at fault for not being able to fill all these vacancies? >> Well, I mean, I think that's just, I mean, I think there's a transition of the new skill set happening one, but two, I think, you know, you've got to be like a chip engineer, you can't learn that online, but if you want to run a cloud infrastructure, you can. But I think embedded systems is an area that I was talking to an engineer, there's a huge shortage of engineers who code on the microprocessors, on the chips. So embedded systems is a big career. So there's definitely parts, you can specialize, space is another area you've seen a lot of activity on, obviously Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk is going to be here on virtual keynote, trying to go to Mars. And, you know, Danielle Royston always says, who's going to happen first, Mars, colony, or telco adopting public cloud? Some people think Mars will happen first but. >> What do you think John? >> I think telco's going to get cloud. I mean, first of all, public cloud is now hybrid cloud and the edge, this whole internet edge, 5G, is so symbolic and so important because it's an architectural beachhead. >> Yeah. >> And that's where the trillion dollar baby is. >> Of course. >> So the inside baseball and the inside money and all the investors are focusing on the edge because whoever can command the edge, wins all the dollars. So everyone kind of knows it's a public secret and it's fun to watch, everyone jockey for the positions. >> Yeah, know, it really is. But it's also quite funny, isn't it? Because the edge is almost where we were decades ago, but we're putting the control back in the hands of consumers. So it's an interesting flip and I wonder if with the edge, we can really enhance this acceleration of product development its efficiency, this frictionless system in which we live in. And also, I've heard you say hybrid a few times John. >> Yeah. >> Is hybrid going to be the future of the world no matter what industry you're in? >> Hybrid is everything now. So it's, we're the hybrid cube, we've got hybrid cloud. >> Exactly. >> You got hybrid telco, because now you've got the confluence of online and offline coming together. >> Yeah. >> That is critical dynamic, and you seeing it. Like virtual reality for instance, now you seeing things, I know you guys are doing some great work at your company around creating experiences that are virtual. >> Exactly. >> You got, like Roblox went public recently. >> Yeah. >> Metaverse is a good time to be in that business because experiential human relations are coming. So I think that's going to be powered by 5G, you know, gamers. So all good stuff, Chloe, great to be with you here in theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> And we're looking forward to seeing your main stage. >> Great. >> And then we're going to send it back to the studio, Adam and the team, we're waiting for DR to arrive here in Cloud City and this is theCUBE, from Cloud City back to you, Adam in the studio.

(upbeat music) >> In 2010 Wikibon predicted that the all flash data center was coming. The forecast at the time was that flash memory consumer volumes, would drive prices of enterprise flash down faster than those of high spin speed, hard disks. And by mid decade, buyers would opt for flash over 15K HDD for virtually all active data. That call was pretty much dead on and the percentage of flash in the data center continues to accelerate faster than that, of spinning disk. Now, the analyst that made this forecast was David FLoyer and he's with me today, along with Renen Hallak who is the founder and CEO of Vast Data. And they're going to discuss these trends and what it means for the future of data and the data center. Gentlemen, welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. >> Great to be here. >> Thank you for having me. >> You're very welcome. Now David, let's start with you. You've been looking at this for over a decade and you know, frankly, your predictions have caused some friction, in the marketplace but where do you see things today? >> Well, what I was forecasting was based on the fact that the key driver in any technology is volume, volume reduces the cost over time and the volume comes from the consumers. So flash has been driven over the years by initially by the iPod in 2006 the Nano where Steve Jobs did a great job with Samsung and introducing large volumes of flash. And then the iPhone in 2008. And since then, all of mobile has been flash and mobile has been taking in a greater and greater percentage share. To begin with the PC dropped. But now the PCs are over 90% are using flash when there delivered. So flash has taken over the consumer market, very aggressively and that has driven down the cost of flash much much faster than the declining market of HDD. >> Okay and now, so Renen I wonder if we could come to you, we've got I want you to talk about the innovations that you're doing, but before we get there, talk about why you started Vast. >> Sure, so it was five years ago and it was basically the kill of the hard drive. I think what David is saying resonates very, very well. In fact, if you look at our original presentation for Vast Data. It showed flash and tape. There was no hard drive in the middle. And we said 10 years from now, and this was five years ago. So even the dates match up pretty well. We're not going to have hard drives anymore. Any piece of information that needs to be accessible at all will be on flash and anything that is dormant and never gets read will be on tape. >> So, okay. So we're entering this kind of new phase now, with which is being driven by QLC. David maybe you could give us a quick what is QLC? Just give us a bumper sticker there. >> There's 3D NAND, which is the thing that's growing, very very fast and it's growing on several dimensions. One dimension is the number of layers. Another dimension is the size of each of those pieces. And the third dimension is the number of bits which a QLC is five bits per cell. So those three dimensions have all been improving. And the result of that is that on a wafer of, that you create, more and more data can be stored on the whole wafer on the chip that comes from that wafer. And so QLC is the latest, set of 3D NAND flash NAND flash. That's coming off the lines at the moment. >> Okay, so my understanding is that there's new architectures that are entering the data center space, that could take advantage of QLC enter Vast. Someone said they've rented this, a nice set up for you and maybe before we get into the architecture, can you talk a little bit more about the company? I mean, maybe not everybody's familiar with with Vast, you share why you started it but what can you tell us about the business performance and any metrics you can share would be great? >> Sure, so the company as I said is five years old, about 170, 180 people today. We started selling product just around two years ago and have just hit $150 million in run rate. That's with eight sales people. And so, as you can imagine, there's a lot of demand for flash all the way down the stack in the way that David predicted. >> Wow, okay. So you got pretty comfortable. I think you've got product market fit, right? And now you're going to scale. I would imagine you're going to go after escape velocity and you're going to build your moat. Now part of that, I mean a lot of that is product, right? Product is sales. Those are the cool two golden pillars, but, and David when you think back to your early forecast last decade it was really about block storage. That was really what was under attack. You know, kind of fusion IO got it started with Facebook. They were trying to solve their SQL database performance problems. And then we saw pure storage. They hit escape velocity. They drove a truck through EMC sym metrics HDD based install base which precipitated the acquisition of XtremeIO by EMC. Something Renan knows a little bit about having led development, of the product but flash was late to the NAS party guys, Renan let me start with you. Why is that? And what is the relevance of QLC in that regard? >> The way storage has been always, it looks like a pyramid and you have your block devices up at the top and then your NAS underneath. And today you have object down at the bottom of that pyramid. And the pyramid basically represents capacity and the Y axis is price performance. And so if you could only serve a small subset of the capacity, you would go for block. And that is the subset that needed high performance. But as you go to QLC and PLC will soon follow the price of all flash systems goes down to a point where it can compete on the lower ends of that pyramid. And the capacity grows to a point where there's enough flash to support those workloads. And so now with QLC and a lot of innovation that goes with it it makes sense to build an all flash, NAS and object store. >> Yeah, okay. And David, you and I have talked about the volumes and Renan sort of just alluded to that, the higher volumes of NAS, not to mention the fact that NAS is hard, you know files difficult, but that's another piece of the equation here, isn't it? >> Absolutely, NAS is difficult. It's a large, very large scale. We're talking about petabytes of data. You're talking about very important data. And you're talking about data, which is at the moment very difficult to manage. It takes a lot of people to manage it, takes a lot of resources and it takes up a lot, a lot of space as well. So all of those issues with NAS and complexity is probably the biggest single problem. >> So maybe we could geek out a little bit here. You guys go at it, but Renan talk about the Vast architecture. I presume it was built from the ground up for flash since you were trying to kill HTD. What else do we need to know? >> It was built for flash. It was also built for Crosspoint which is a new technology that came out from Intel and micron about three years ago. Cross point is basically another level of persistent media above flash and below Ram. But what we really set out to do is, as I said to kill the hard drive, and for that what you need is to get the price parity. And of course, flash and hard drives are not at price parity today. As David said, they probably will be in a few years from now. And so we wanted to, jumpstart that, to accelerate that. And so we spent a lot of time in building a new type of architecture with a lot of new metadata structures and algorithms on top to bring that effective price down to a point where it's competitive today. And in fact, two years ago the way we did it was by going out to talk to these vendors Intel with 3D Crosspoint and QLC flash Mellanox with NVMe over fabrics, and very fast ethernet networks. And we took those building blocks and we thought how can we use this to build a completely different type of architecture, that doesn't just take flash one level down the stack but actually allows us to break that pyramid, to collapse it down and to build a single system that is as fast as your fastest all flash block device or faster but as affordable as your hard drive based archives. And once that happens you don't need to think about storage anymore. You have a single system that's big enough and cheap enough to throw everything at it. And it's fast enough such that everything is accessible as sub-millisecond latencies. The way the architecture is built is pretty much the opposite of the way scale-out storage has been done. It's not based on shared nothing. The way XtremIO was the way Isilon is the way Hadoop and the Google file system are. We're basing it on a concept called Dis-aggregated Shared Everything. And what that means is that we have the media on one set of devices, the logic running in containers, just software and you can scale each of those independently. So you can scale capacity independently from performance and you have this shared metadata space, that all of the containers can see. So the containers don't actually have to talk to each other in the synchronous path. That means that it's much more scalable. You can go up to hundreds of thousands of nodes rather than just a few dozen. It's much more resilient. You can have all of them fail and you still didn't lose any data. And it's much more easy to use to David's point about complexity. >> Thank you for that. And then you, you mentioned up front that you not only built for flash, but built for Crosspoint. So you're using Crosspoint today. It's interesting. There was always been this sort of debate about Crosspoint It's less expensive than Ram, or maybe I got that wrong but it's persistent, >> It is. >> Okay, but it's more expensive than flash. And it was sort of thought it was a fence sitter cause it didn't have the volume but you're using it today successfully. That's interesting. >> We're using it both to offset the deficiencies of the low cost flash. And the nice thing about QLC and PLC is that you get the same levels of read performance as you would from high-end flash. The only difference between high cost and low cost flash today is in right cycles and in right performance. And so Crosspoint helps us offset both of those. We use it as a large right buffer and we use it as a large metadata store. And that allows us not just to arrange the information in a very large persistent right buffer before we need to place it on the low cost flash. But it also allows us to develop new types of metadata structures and algorithms that allow us to make better use of the low cost flash and reduce the effective price down even lower than the rock capacity. >> Very cool. David, what are your thoughts on the architecture? give us kind of the independent perspective >> I think it's brilliant architecture. I'd like to just go one step down on the network side of things. The whole use of NBME over fabric allows the users all of the servers to get any data across this whole network directly to it. So you've got great performance right away across the stack. And then the other thing is that by using RDMA for NASS, you're able, if you need to, to get down in microseconds to the data. So overall that's a thousand times faster than any HDD system could manage. So this architecture really allows an any to any simple, single level of storage which is so much easier to think about, architect use or manage is just so much simpler. >> If you had I mean, I said I don't know if there's an answer to this question but if you had to pick one thing Renan that you really were dogmatic about and you bet on from an architectural standpoint, what would that be? >> I think what we bet on in the early days is the fact that the pyramid doesn't work anymore and that tiering doesn't work anymore. In fact, we stole Johnson and Johnson's tagline No More Tears. Only, It's not spelled the same way. The reason for that is not because of storage. It's because of the applications as we move to applications more and more that are machine-based and machines are now not just generating the data. They're also reading the data and analyzing it and providing insights for humans to consume. Then the workloads changed dramatically. And the one thing that we saw is that you can't choose which pieces of information need to be accessible anymore. These new algorithms, especially around AI and machine learning and deep learning they need fast access to the entirety of the dataset and they want to read it over and over and over again in order to generate those insights. And so that was the driving force behind us building this new type of architecture. And we're seeing every single day when we talk to customers how the old architecture is simply break down in the face of these new applications. >> Very cool speaking of customers. I wonder if you could talk about use cases, customers you know, and this NASS arena maybe you could add some color there. >> Sure, our customers are large in data. We started half a petabyte and we grow into the exabyte range. The system likes to be big as, as it grows it grows super linearly. If you have a 100 nodes or a 1000 nodes you get more than 10X in performance, in capacity efficiency and resilience, et cetera. And so that's where we thrive. And those workloads are today. Mainly analytics workloads, although not entirely. If you look at it geographically we have a lot of life science in Boston research institutes medical imaging, genomics universities pharmaceutical companies here in New York. We have a lot of financials, hedge funds, Analyzing everything from satellite imagery to trade data to Twitter feeds out in California. A lot of AI, autonomous driving vehicles as well as media and entertainment both generation of films like animation, as well as content distribution are being done on top of best. >> Great thank you and David, when you look at the forecast that you've made over the years and when I imagine that they match nicely with your assumptions. And so, okay, I get that, but that doesn't, not everybody agrees, David. I mean, certainly the HDD guys don't agree but they, they're obviously fighting to hang on to their awesome run for 50 years, but as well there's others to do in hybrids and the like, and they kind of challenge your assumptions and you don't have a dog in this fight. We just want the truth and try to do our best to report it. But let me start with this. One of the things I've seen is that you're comparing deduped and compressed flash with raw HDD. Is that true or false? >> It's in terms of the fundamentals of the forecast, et cetera, it's false. What I'm taking is the new egg price. And I did it this morning and I looked up a two terabyte disc drive, NAS disc drive. I think it was $54. And if you look at the cost of a a NAND for two terabytes, it's about $200. So it's a four to one ratio. >> So, >> So and that's coming down from what people saw last year, which was five or six and every year has been, that ratio has been coming down. >> The ratio between the cost Delta, between HDD is still cheaper. So Renan I wonder one of the other things that Floyer has said is that because of the advantages of flash, not only performance but also data sharing, et cetera, which really drives other factors like TCO. That it doesn't have to be at parody in order for customers to consume that. I certainly saw that on my laptop, I could have got more storage and it could have been cheaper for per bit for my laptop. I took the flash. I mean, no problem. That that was an intelligence test but what are you seeing from customers? And by the way Floyer I think is forecasting by what, 2026 there will be actually a raw to raw crossover. So then it's game over. But what are you seeing in terms of what customers are telling you or any evidence you have that it doesn't have to be, even that customers actually get more value even if it's more expensive from flash, what are you seeing? >> Yeah in the enterprise space customers aren't buying raw flash they're buying storage systems. And so even if the raw numbers flash versus hard drive are still not there there is a lot of things that can be done at the system level to equalize those two. In fact, a lot of our IP is based on that we are taking flash today is, as David said more expensive than hard drives, but at the system level it doesn't remain more expensive. And the reason for that is storage systems waste space. They waste it on metadata, they waste it on redundancy. We built our new metadata structures, such that they everything lives in Crosspoint and is so much smaller because of the way Crosspoint is accessible at byte level granularity, we built our erasure codes in a way where you can sustain 10, 20, 30 drive failures but you only pay two or 1% in overhead. We built our data reduction mechanisms such that they can reduce down data even if the application has already compressed it and already de-duplicated it. And so there's a lot of innovation that can happen at the software level as part of this new direct dis-aggregated shared everything architecture that allows us to bridge that cost gap today without having customers do fancy TCO calculations. And of course, as prices of flash over the next few years continue declining, all of those advantages remain and it will just widen the gap between hard drives and flash. And there really is no advantage to hard drives once the price thing is solved. >> So thank you. So David, the other thing I've seen around these forecasts is that the comments that you can't really data reduce effectively hard disk. And I understand why the overhead and of course you can in flash you can use all kinds of data reduction techniques and not affect performance, or it's not even noticeable like put the cloud guys, do it upstream. Others do it upstream. What's your comment on that? >> Yes, if you take sequential data and you do a lot of work upfront you can write out in very lot big blocks and that's a perfect sequentially, good way of doing it. The challenge for the HDD people is if they go for that for that sort of sequential type of application that the cheapest way of doing that is to use tape which comes back to the discussion that the two things that are going to remain are tape and flash. So that part of the HDD market in my assertion will go towards tape and tape libraries. And those are serving very well at the moment. >> Yeah I mean, It's just the economics of tape are really attractive. I just feel like I've said this many times that the marketing of tape is lacking. Like I'd like to see, better thinking around how it could play. Cause I think customers have this perception tape, but there's actually a lot of value there. I want to carry on, >> Small point there. Yeah, I mean, there's an opportunity in the same way that Vast have created an architecture for flash. There's an opportunity out there for the tech people with flash to make an architecture that allows you to take that workload and really lower the price, enormously. >> You've called it Flape >> Flape yes. >> There's some interesting metadata opportunities there but we won't go into that. And then David, I want to ask you about NAND shortages. We saw this in 2016 and 2017. A lot of people saying there's an NAND shortage again. So that's a flaw in your forecast prices of you're assuming prices of flash continue to come down faster than those of HDD but the shortages of NAND could be problematic. What do you say to that? >> Well, I've looked at that in some detail and one of the big, important things is what's happening in the flash market and the Chinese, YMTC Chinese company has introduced a lot more volume into the market. They're making 100,000 wafers a month for this year. That's around six to 8% of market of NAND at this year, as a result, Samsung, micron, Intel, Hynix they're all increasing their volumes of NAND so that they're all investing. So I don't see that NAND itself is going to be a problem. There is certainly a shortage of processor chips which drive the intelligence in the NAND itself. But that's a problem for everybody. That's a problem for cars. It's a problem for disk drives. >> You could argue that's going to create an oversupply, potentially. Let's not go there, but you know what at the end of the day it comes back to the customer and all this stuff. It's interesting. I love talking about the architecture but it's really all about customer value. And so, so Renan, I want you to sort of close there. What should customers be paying attention to? And what should observers of Vast Data really watch as indicators for progress for you guys milestones and things in the market that we should be paying attention to but start with the customers. What's your advice to them? >> Sure, for any customer that I talked to I always ask the same thing. Imagine where you'll be five years from now because you're making an investment now that is at least five years long. In our case, we guaranteed the lifespan of the devices for a decade, such that you know that it's going to be there for you and imagine what is going to happen over those next five years. What we're seeing in most customers is that they have a lot of doormen data and with the advances in analytics and AI they want to make use of that data. They want to turn it from a cost center to a profit center and to gain insight from that data and to improve their business based on that information that they have the same way the hyperscalers are doing in order to do that, you need one thing you need fast access to all of that information. Once you have that, you have the foundation to step into this next generation type world where you can actually make money off of your information. And the best way to get very, very fast access to all of your information is to put it on Vast media like flash and Crosspoint. If I can give one example, Hedge Funds. Hedge funds do a lot of back-testing on Vast. And what makes sense for them is to test as much information back as they possibly can but because of storage limitations, they can't do that. And the other thing that's important to them is to have a real-time experience to be able to run those simulations in a few minutes and not as a batch process overnight, but because of storage limitations, they can't do that either. The third thing is if you have many different applications and many different users on the same system they usually step on each other's toes. And so the Vast architecture is solves those three problems. It allows you a lot of information very fast access and fast processing an amazing quality of service where different users of the system don't even notice that somebody else is accessing the same piece of information. And so Hedge Funds is one example. Any one of these verticals that make use of a lot of information will benefit from this architecture in this system. And if it doesn't cost any more, there's really no real reason delay this transition into all flash. >> Excellent very clear thinking. Thanks for laying that out. And what about, you know, things that we should how should we judge you? What are the things that we should watch? >> I think the most important way to judge us is to look at customer adoption and what we're seeing and what we're showing investors is a very high net dollar retention number. What that means is basically a customer buys a piece of kit today, how much more will they buy over the next year, over the next two years? And we're seeing them buy more than three times more, within a year of the initial purchase. And we see more than 90% of them buying more within that first year. And that to me indicates that we're solving a real problem and that they're making strategic decisions to stop buying any other type of storage system. And to just put everything on Vast over the next few years we're going to expand beyond just storage services and provide a full stack for these AI applications. We'll expand into other areas of infrastructure and develop the best possible vertically integrated system to allow those new applications to thrive. >> Nice, yeah. Think investors love that lifetime value story. If you can get above 3X of the customer acquisition cost is to IPO in the way. Guys hey, thanks so much for coming to the Cube. We had a great conversation and really appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right, Thanks for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for the Cube. We'll see you next time. (gentle music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with that leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hello and welcome to this special CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, your host. We're here for a special series, Leading with Observability, and this segment is: End-to-end observability drives great digital experiences. We've got a great guest here, Craig Hyde, senior director of product management for Splunk. Craig, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> And thanks for having me. This is great. >> So this series, Leading with Observability is a super hot topic obviously with cloud native. In the pandemic, COVID-19 has really kind of shown cloud native trend has been a tailwind for people who invested in it, who have been architecting for cloud on premises where data is a key part of that value proposition and then there's people who haven't been doing it. So, and out of this trend, the word observability has become a hot segment. And for us insiders in the industry, we know observability is just kind of network management on steroids in the cloud, so it's about data and all this. But at the end of the day, there's value that's enabled from observability. So I want to talk to you about that value that's enabled in the experience of the end user whether it's in a modern application or user inside the enterprise. Tell us what you think about this end user perspective. >> Sure, yeah thanks a lot for that intro. And I would actually argue that observability wouldn't even just be machine data or network data, it's more of a broader context where you can see everything that's going on inside the application and the digital user experience. From a user experience or a digital experience management perspective, I believe the metrics that you pull from such a thing are the most useful and ubiquitous metrics that you have and visibility in all of technology. And when done right, it can tell you what the actual end result of all this technology that you're piecing together, the end result of what's getting delivered to the user, both quantitatively and qualitatively. So, my background, I actually started a company in this domain. It was called Rigor and we focused purely on looking at user experience and digital experience. And the idea was that, you know, this was 10 years ago, we were just thinking, look, 10 years from now, more and more people are going to do business digitally, they're going to work more digitally and at the same time we saw the legacy data centers being shut down and things were moving to the cloud. So we said, look, the future is in the users, and where it all comes together is on the user's desktop or on their phone, and so we set out to focus specifically on that space. Fast forward 10 years, we're now a part of Splunk and we're really excited to bolt this onto an overall observability strategy. You know, I believe that it's becoming more and more popular, like you said, with the pandemic and COVID-19, it was already on a tear from a digital perspective, the adoption was going through the roof and people were doing more and more remote, they were buying more and more offline, but the pandemic has just pushed it through the roof. And I mean, wow, like the digital business genie's out of the bottle and there's no putting it back now. But, you know, there's also other things that are driving the need for this and the importance of it and part of it comes with the way technology is growing. It's becoming much more complex in terms of moving parts. Where an app used to be run off three different tiers in a data center, now it could be across hundreds of machines and opaque networks, opaque data centers all over the world, and the only time you often see things, how they come together, is on the user's desktop. And so that's where we really think you got to start from the user experience and work back. And, you know, all the drive in computing is all about making things better, faster and cheaper, but without this context of the user, often the customer and the experience gets left out from reaping the rewards from all these gains. So that's sort of like encapsulates my overall view of the space and why we got into it and why I'm so excited about it. >> Well Craig, I got to ask on a personal level. I mean, you look at what happened with the pandemic, I mean, you're a pioneer, you had a vision. Folks that are on the entrepreneurial side say, hey digital businesses is coming and they get it and it's slowly gets known in the real world, becomes more certain, but with the pandemic, it just happened all of a sudden so fast for everybody because everyone's impacted. Teachers, students, families, work, everyone's at home. So the entire user experience was impacted in the entire world. What was going through your mind when you saw all this happening and you see the winners obviously were people had invested in cloud native and data-driven technologies, what was your take on all this when you saw this coming? >> Well, the overall trend has been going on for decades, right? And so the direction of it isn't that surprising, but the magnitude and the acceleration, there's some stats out there from Forbes where the e-commerce adoption doubled within the first six months of the pandemic. So we're talking, you know, 10, 12 years of things ticking up and then within six months, a doubling of the adoption of e-commerce. And so like anybody else, you first freeze and say, what does this mean? But when people start working remote and people start ordering things from Amazon and all the other websites, it's quick to see like, aha! It no longer matters what chairs somebody is sitting in when they're doing work or that they're close to a store and you have a physical storefront when you're trying to buy something, it's all about that digital experience and it needs to be ubiquitous. So it's been interesting to see the change over the past few months for sure. But again, it doesn't change the trend, it just magnified it and I don't see it going back anytime soon. >> Yeah I mean, digital transformation has always been a buzz word that everyone kind of uses as a way to kind of talk about the big picture. >> Right. >> It's actually transforming and there's also share shifts that happen in every transformation, in any market shift. Obviously that's happening with cloud. Cloud native edge is becoming super important. In all of these, and by the way, in all the applications that sit on that infrastructure which is now infrastructure as code, has a data requirement that observability piece becomes super critical, not just from identifying and resolving, but also for training machine learning and AI, right? So, again, you have this new flywheel observability that's really at the heart of digital transformation. What should companies think about when they associate observability to digital transformation as they're sitting around whether they're CXOs or CSOs or solution architects going, okay, how does observability plug into my plans? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my recommendation and the approach that I would take is that you want to start with the end in mind and it's all about how you set your goals when you're setting out in getting into digital transformation. And, you know, the late Steve Jobs, to borrow one of his quotes, he said that you have to start with the customer experience in mind and work backwards to the technology. And so I think that applies when you get into an observability strategy. So without understanding what the actual user experience is, you don't have a good enough yardstick to go out there and start working towards. So availability on a server or CPU time or transaction time in a database, like, those are all great, but without the context of what is the goal you're actually going after, it's kind of useless. So, like I said, it's not uptime, it's not server time, it's not any of that stuff, and it's user experience and these things are different. So they're like visual metrics, right? So what a user sees, because all kinds of things are going on in the background, but if it can see that the person can see and their experience is that they're getting some kind of response from the machine, then that's how you measure where the end point is and what the overall goal is. And so like to keep kind of going on with that, it's like you start with the end in mind, you use that end to set your goals, you use that domain and that visibility to troubleshoot faster. So when the calls start rolling in then they say, hey, I'm stuck at home and I'm on a slow internet connection, I can't get on the app and core IT is taking a phone call, You can quickly look and instrument that user and see exactly what they're seeing. So when you're troubleshooting, you're looking at the data from their perspective and then working backwards to the technology. >> That's super exciting. I want to get your thoughts on that. So just to double down on that because I think this highlights the trend that we were just talking about. But I'll break it down into three areas that I see happening in the marketplace. Number one, availability and performance. That's on everyone's mind. You just hit that, right? Number two, integrations. There's more integrations going on within platforms or tools or systems, whether it's an API over here, people are working together digitally, right? And you're seeing e-commerce. And third is the user patterns and the expectations are changing. So when you unpack those kinds of like trends, there's features of observability underneath each. Could you talk about that because I think that seems to be the common pattern that I'm seeing? Okay, high availability, okay, check. Everyone has to have that. Almost table stakes. But it's hard when you're scaling, right? And then integrations, all kinds of API is being slinged around. You've got microservices, you've got Kubernetes, people are integrating data flows, control planes, whatever, and then finally users. They want new things. New patterns emerge, which is new data. >> Yeah, absolutely. And to just kind of talk about that, it reminds me of like a Maslow's hierarchy of needs of visibility, right? Like, okay, the machine is on, check. Like you said, it's table stakes, make sure it's up and running. That's great. Then you want to see sort of the applications that are running on the machine, how they're talking to each other, are other components that you're making API calls to, are they timing out or are they breaking things? And so you get that visibility of like, okay, they're on, what's going on top of those machines are inside of them or in the containers or the virtual machines or whatever segment of computing that you're looking at, And then that cherry on top, the highest point is like, how is that stack of technology serving your customer? How's it serving the user and what's the experience? So those are sort of the three levels that we kind of look at when we're thinking of user experience. And so, it's a different way to look at it, but it's sort of the way that kind of we see the world is that three tier, that three layer cake. >> It's interesting. >> And you need all the layers. >> It's super relevant. And again, it's better together, but you can mix and match and have product in there. So I want to get into the Splunk solution. You guys have the digital experience monitoring solution. Can you explain what that is and how that fits into all this and what's in it for the customers, what's the benefit? >> Right, sure. So with the digital experience monitoring and the platform that we have, we're giving people the ability to basically do what I was talking about, where it enables you to take a look at what the user's experience are and pull metrics and then correlate them from the user all the way through the technical journey to the back end, through the different tiers of the application and so on. So that technology is called real user monitoring where we instrument the users. And then we also layer in synthetic monitoring which is the sort of robot users that are always on for when you're in lower level environments and you want to see, you know, what experience is going to look like when you push out new software, or when nobody's on the application, did something break? So a couple of those two together and then we feed that into our overall observability platform that's fed with machine data, we have all the metrics from all the components that you're looking at in that single pane of glass. And the idea is that we're also bringing you not only just the metrics and the events from logs and all the happenings, but we're also trying to help tease out some of these problems for you. So many problems that happen in technology have happened before, and we've got a catalog with our optimization platform of 300 plus things that go wrong when webpages or web applications or API calls start acting funky. And so we can provide, based on our intelligence that's built into the platform, basically run books for people to fix things faster and build those playbooks into the release process so you don't break the applications to begin with and you can set flags to where people understand what performance is before when it's being delivered to the customer, and if there are problems, let's fix them before we break the experience and lose the trust of the user. So again, it's the metrics from the stats that are coming across the wire of everything all the way to the users, it's the events from the logs that are coming in so you can see context, and then it's that user experience, it's a trace level data from where you can double click into each of the tiers and say, like, what's going on in here? What's going on in the browser? What's going on in the application? What's going on in the backend? And so you can sort of pool all that together in a single pane of glass and find problems faster, fix them faster and prevent users from having problems to begin with. And to do this properly, you really need it all under one roof and so that's why we're so excited to bring this all together. >> Yeah, I've been sitting on theCUBE for 10 years now. We've been 11 years, on our 11th year doing theCUBE. Digital you can measure everything. So why not? There should be no debate if done properly. So that brings up this whole concept that you guys are talking about full fidelity. Can you just take a minute to explain what that is? What is full fidelity mean? >> Sure, you know, full fidelity really comes down to a lot about these traces. So when we talk about metrics, logs and traces, it's all about getting all the activity that goes on in an application and looking at it. So when you or I interact with our company's app online and there's problems, that the person who's going to fix this problem, they can actually see specifically me. They can look at my experience and look at what it would look like in my browser, you know, what were all the services that I was interacting with and what was going on in the application, what code was being called, what services were being called, and look at specifically me as opposed to an aggregate of all the domains all put together. And it really is important from a troubleshooting standpoint. It's really important from an understanding of the actuals because without full fidelity and capturing all of the data, you're kind of going, you know, you're taking guesses and it eliminates a lot of the guesswork. And so that's something that's special with our platform is that ability to have the full fidelity. >> When does a client, a customer not have full fidelity? I might think I have it, someone sold me a product, What's the tell sign that I don't have full fidelity? >> Oh yeah, well with observability, there's a lot of tricks in the game. And so you see a lot of summary data that looks like, hey, this is that one call, but usually it's knitted together from a bunch of different calls. So that summary data just from, because this stuff takes up a lot of storage and there's a lot of problems with scale, and so when you might see something that looks like it's this call, it's actually like, in general, when a call like this happens, this is what it looks like. And so you've got to say like, is this the exact call? And, you know, it makes a big difference from a troubleshooting perspective and it's really hard to implement and that's something that Splunk's very good at, right? It's data at scale. It's the 800 pound gorilla in collecting and slicing apart machine data. So like, you have to have something of that scale in order to ingest all this information. It's a hard problem for sure. >> Yeah, totally. And I appreciate that. While I got you here, you're an expert, I got to ask you about Open Telemetry. We've heard that term kicked around. What does that mean? Is it an open source thing, is it an open framework? What is Open Telemetry and what does it mean for your customers or the marketplace? >> Yeah, I think of Open Telemetry as finally creating a standard for how we're collecting data from applications across AP- In the past, it's been onesie-twosie, here and there each company coming up with it themselves and there are never any standards of how to look at transactions across data, across applications and across tiers. And so Open Telemetry is the attempt and it's a consortium, so there's many people involved in pushing this together, but think of like a W3C, which creates the standards for how websites operate, and without it, the web wouldn't be what it is today. And now Open Telemetry is coming behind and doing that same thing from an observability standpoint. So you're not just totally locked into one vendor in the way that they do it and you're held hostage to only looking at that visibility. We're trying to set the standards to lower the barrier of entry into getting to application performance monitoring, network performance monitoring and just getting that telemetry where there are standards across the board. And so it's an open source project. We commit to it, and it's a really important project for observability in general. >> So does that speak to like, the whole more data you have, the less blind spots you might have? Is that the same concept? Is that some of the thinking behind this? >> It enables you to get more data faster. Now, if you think about, if there are no standards and there are no rules on the road and everybody can get on the road and they can decide if they want to drive in the left lane or the right lane today, it makes getting places a lot harder. And the same is true with Open Telemetry. without the standards of what, you know, the naming conventions, where you instrument, how you instrument, it becomes very hard to put some things in a single pane of glass because they just look differently everywhere. And so that's the idea behind it. >> Well Craig, great to have you on. You're super smart on this, and Leading with Observability, it's a hot topic. It's super cool and relevant right now with digital transformation as companies are looking to rearchitect and change how they're going to flip the script on software development, modern applications, modern infrastructure, edge, all of this is on top of mind of everyone's thing on their plans. And we certainly want to have you back in some of our conversations that we have around this on our editorial side as well with when we have these clubhouses we are going to start doing a lot of those. We definitely want to bring you in. I'll give you a final word here. Tell us what you're most excited about. Put the commercial for Splunk. Why Splunk? Why you guys are excited. Take a minute to get the plug in. >> It's so easy. Splunk has the base to make this possible. Splunk is, like I said, it's an 800 pound gorilla in machine data and taking in data at scale. And when you start going off into the observability abyss, the really, really hard part about it is having the scale to not only go broad in the levels of technology that you can collect, but also go deep. And that depth, when we talked about that full fidelity, it's really important when you get down to brass tacks and you start implementing changes and troubleshooting things and turning that data that you have in to doing, so understanding what you can do with it. And Splunk is fully committed to going, not only broad to get everything under one roof, but also deep so that you can make all of the information that you collect actionable and useful. And it's something that I haven't seen anybody even attempt and I'm really excited to be a part of building towards that vision. >> Well, I've been covering Splunk for, man, many, many years. 10 years plus, I think, since it's been founded, and really the growth and the vision and the mission still is the same. Leveraging data, making use of it, unlocking the power of data as it evolves and there's more of it. And it gets more complicated when data is involved in the user experience end-to-end from cybersecurity to user flows and new expectations. So congratulations. Great product. Thanks for coming on and sharing. >> Thanks again for having us. >> Okay, this is John Furrier in theCUBE. Leading with Observability is the theme of this series and this topic was End-to-end observability to enable great digital experiences. Thanks for watching. (lighthearted music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Much of the discussion around Intel's current challenges, is focused on manufacturing issues and it's ongoing market share skirmish with AMD. Of course, that's very understandable. But the core issue Intel faces is that it has lost the volume game forever. And in Silicon volume is king. As such incoming CEO Pat Gelsinger faces some difficult decisions. I mean, on the one hand he could take some logical steps to shore up the company's execution, maybe outsource a portion of its manufacturing. Make some incremental changes that would unquestionably please Wall Street and probably drive shareholder value when combined with the usual stock buybacks and dividends. On the other hand, Gelsinger could make much more dramatic moves shedding it's vertically integrated heritage and transforming Intel into a leading designer of chips for the emerging multi-trillion dollar markets that are highly fragmented and generally referred to as the edge. We believe Intel has no choice. It must create a deep partnership in our view with a semiconductor manufacturer with aspirations to manufacture on US soil and focus Intel's resources on design. Hello, everyone. And welcome to this week's Wikibon's Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis will put forth our prognosis for what Intel's future looks like and lay out what we think the company needs to do not only to maintain its relevance but to regain the position it once held as perhaps the most revered company in tech. Let's start by looking at some of the fundamental factors that we've been tracking and that have shaped and are shaping Intel and our thinking around Intel today. First, it's really important to point out that new CEO Gelsinger is walking into a really difficult situation. Intel's ascendancy and its dominance it was created by PC volumes. And its development of an ecosystem that the company created around the x86 instruction set. In semiconductors volume is everything. The player with the highest volumes has the lowest manufacturing costs. And the math around learning curves is very clear and it's compelling. It's based on Wright's law named after Theodore Wright T.P Wright. He was an aeronautical engineer and he discovered that for every cumulative doubling of units manufactured, costs are going to fall by a constant percentage. Now in semiconductor way for manufacturing that cost is roughly around 22% declines. And when you consider the economics of manufacturing a next generation technology, for example going from ten nanometers to seven nanometers this becomes huge. Because the cost of making seven nanometer tech for example is much higher relative to 10 nanometers. But if you can fit more circuits on a chip your wafer costs can drop by 30% or even more. Now this learning curve benefit is why volume is so important. If the time it takes to double volume is elongated then the learning curve benefit they get elongated as well and it become less competitive from a cost standpoint. And that's exactly what is happening to Intel. You see x86 PC volumes, they peaked in 2011 and that marked the beginning of the end of Intel's dominance from manufacturing and cost standpoint. You know, ironically HDD hard disk drive volumes peaked around the same time and you're seeing a similar fundamental shift in that market relative to flash. Now because Intel has a vertically integrated model it's designers are limited by the constraints in the manufacturing process. What used to be Intel's ace in the hole its process manufacturing has become a hindrance, frustrating Intel's chip designers and really seeding advantage to a number of competitors including AMD, ARM and Nvidia. Now, during this time we've seen high profile innovators adapting alternative processors companies like Apple which chose its own design based on ARM for the M1. Tesla is a fascinating case study where Intel was really not in the running. AWS probably Intel's largest customer is developing its own chips. You know through Intel, a little bone at the recent reinvent it announced its use of Intel's Habana chips in a practically the same sentence that talked about how it was developing a similar chip that would provide even better price performance. And just last month it was reported that Microsoft Intel's monopoly partner in the PC era was developing its own ARM-based chips for the surface PCs and for its servers. Intel's Zenith was marked by those peak PC volumes that we talked about. Now to stress this point this chart shows x86 PC volumes over time. That red highlighted area shows the peak years. Now, volumes actually grew in 2020 in part due to COVID which is not really reflected in this chart but the volume game was lost for Intel. When it has been widely reported that in 2005 Steve Jobs approached Intel as it was replacing IBM microprocessors with with Intel processors for the Mac and asked Intel to develop the chip for the iPhone Intel passed and the die was cast. Now to the earlier point, PC markets are actually quite good if you're Dell. Here's some ETR data that shows Dell's laptop net score. Net score is a measure of spending momentum for 2020 and into 2021. Dell's client business has been very good and profitable and frankly, it's been a pleasant surprise. You know, PCs they're doing well. And as you can see in this chart, Dell has momentum. There's approximately 275 million maybe as high as 300 million PC units shipped worldwide in 2020, you know up double digits by some estimates. However, ARM chip units shipped exceeded 20 billion units last year worldwide. And it's not apples to apples. You know, we're comparing x86 based PCs to ARM chips. So this excludes x86 servers, but the way for volume for ARM dwarfs that of x86 probably by a factor of 10 times. Back to Wright's law, how long is it going to take Intel to double wafer volumes? It's not going to happen. And trust me, Pat Gelsinger understands this dynamic probably better than anyone in the world and certainly better than I do. And as you look out to the future, the story for Intel and it's vertically integrated approach it's even tougher. This chart shows Wikibon's 2020 forecast for ARM based compared to x86 based PCs. It also includes some other devices but as you can see what happens by the end of the decade is ARM really starts to eat in to x86. As we've seen with the M1 at Apple, ARM is competing in PCs in much better position for these emerging devices that support things like video and virtual reality systems. And we think even will start to eat into the enterprise. So again, the volume game is over for Intel, period. They're never going to win it back. Well, you might ask what about revenue? Intel still dominates in the data center right? Well, yes. And that is much higher revenue per unit but we still believe that revenue from ARM-based systems are going to surpass that of x86 by the end of the decade. Arm compute revenue is shown in the orange area in this chart with x86 in the blue. This means to us that Intel's last mot is going to be its position in the data center. It has to protect that at all costs. Now the market knows this. It knows something's wrong with Intel. And you can see that is reflected in the valuations of semiconductor companies. This chart compares the trailing 12 month revenue in the market valuations for Intel, Nvidia, AMD and Qualcomm. And you can see at a trailing 12 month multiple revenue with 3 X compared to about 22 X for Nvidia about 10 X for AMT and Qualcomm, Intel is lagging behind in the street's view. And Intel, as you can see here, it's now considered a cheap stock by many, you know. Here's a graph that shows the performance over the past 12 months compared to the NASDAQ which you can see that major divergence. NASDAQ has been powered part by COVID and all the new tech and the work from home. The stock reacted very well to the appointment of Gelsinger. That's no surprise. The question people are asking is what's next for Intel? How will Pat turn the company's fortunes around? How long is it going to take? What moves can he and should he make? How will they be received by the market? And internally, very importantly, within Intel's culture. These are big chewy questions and people are split on what should be done. I've heard everything from Pat should just clean up the execution issues. It's no.. This is, you know, very workable and not make any major strategic moves all the way to Intel should do a hybrid outsourced model to Intel should aggressively move out of manufacturing. Let me read some things from Barron's and some other media. Intel has fallen behind rivals and the rest of tech Intel is replacing Bob Swan. Investors are cheering the move. Intel would likely turn to Taiwan semiconductor for chips. Here's who benefits most. So let's take a look at some of the opinions that are inside these articles. So, first one I'm going to pull out Intel has indicated a willingness to try new things and investors expect the company to announce a hybrid manufacturing approach in January. Now, if you take a look at that and you quote a CEO Swan, he says, what has changed is that we have much more flexibility in our designs. And with that type of design we have the ability to move things in and move things out. And that gives us a little more flexibility about what we will make and what we might take from the outside. So let's unpack that a little bit. The new Intel, we know is a highly vertically integrated workflow from design to manufacturing production. But to me, the designers are the artists and the flexibility you would think would come from outsourcing manufacturer to give designers more flexibility to take advantage of say seven nanometer or five nanometer process technologies versus having to wait for Intel to catch up. It used to be that Intel's process was the industry's best and it could supercharge a design or even mask certain design challenges so that Intel could maintain its edge but that's no longer the case. Here's a sentiment from an analyst, Daniel Donnelly. Donnelly is at Citi. It says he's confident. Donnelly is confident that Intel's decision to outsource more of its production won't result in the company divesting its entire manufacturing segment. And he cited three reasons. One, it would take roughly three years to bring a chip to market. And two, Intel would have to share IP. And three, it would hurt Intel's profit margins. He said it would negatively impact gross margins by 10 points and would cause a 25% decline in EPS. Now I don't know about this. I would... To that I would say one, Intel needs to reduce its current cycle time, to go from design to production from let's say three to four years where it is today. It's got to get it under you know, at least at two years maybe even less. Second, I would say is what good is intellectual property if it's not helping you win in the market? And three, I think profitability is nuance. So here's another take from a UBS analyst. His name is Timothy Arcuri. And he says, quote, We see but no option but for Intel to aggressively pursue an outsourcing strategy. He wrote that Intel could be 80% outsourced by 2026. And just by going to 50% outsourcing, he said would save the company $4 billion annually in CapEx and 25% would drop to free cashflow. So look, maybe Gelsinger has to sacrifice some gross margin in EPS for the time being. Reduce the cost of goods sold by outsourcing manufacturing lower its CapEx and fund innovation in design with free cash flow. Here's our take, Pat Gelsinger needs to look in the mirror and ask what would Andy Grove do? You know, Grove's quote that only the paranoid survive its famous less well-known are the words that proceeded that quote. Success breeds complacency and complacency breeds failure. Intel in our view is headed on a path to a long drawn out failure if it doesn't act aggressively. It simply can't compete on cost as an integrated manufacturer because it doesn't have the volume. So what will Pat Gelsinger do? You know, we've probably done 30 Cube interviews with Pat and I just don't think he's taking the job to make some incremental changes to Intel to get the stock price back up. Why would that excite Pat Gelsinger? Trends, markets, people, society, he's a dot connector and he loves Intel deeply. And he's a legend at the company. Here's what we strongly believe. We think Intel has to do a deal with TSM or maybe Samsung perhaps some kind of joint venture or other innovative structure that both protects its IP and secures its future. You know, both of these manufacturers would love to have a stronger US presence. In markets where Intel has many manufacturing facilities they may even be willing to take a loss to get this started and deeply partner with Intel for some period of time This would allow Intel to better compete on a cost basis with AMD. It would protect its core data center revenue and allow it to fight the fight in PCs with better cost structures. Maybe even gain some share that could count for, you know another $10 billion to the top line. Intel should focus on reducing its cycle times and unleashing its designers to create new solutions. Let a manufacturing partner who has the learning curve advantages enable Intel designers to innovate and extend ecosystems into new markets. Autonomous vehicles, factory floor use cases, military security, distributed cloud the coming telco explosion with 5G, AI inferencing at the edge. Bite the bullet, give up on yesterday's playbook and reinvent Intel for the next 50 years. That's what we'd like to see. And that's what we think Gelsinger will conclude when he channels his mentor. What do you think? Please comment on my LinkedIn posts. You can DM me at dvellante or email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. I publish weekly on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. These episodes remember are also available as podcasts for your listening pleasure. Just search Breaking Analysis podcast. Many thanks to my friend and colleague David Floyer who contributed to this episode and that has done great work in the last better part of the last decade and has really thought through some of the cost factors that we talked about today. Also don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey action. Thanks for watching this episode of the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Be well. And we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)