>> Welcome to this IBM Watson Health Client Conversation. Here, we are probing the dynamics of the relationship between IBM and its key clients. We're looking back and we're also exploring the present situation. And we're going to talk about the future state of healthcare as well. My name is Dave Vellante from theCUBE and with me are Ryad Rondo who's the Associate director of Data Management at Veristat and Tim Watson, IBM Watson Health. Welcome gents. Tim, any relation? >> (chuckles) If I had a nickel for every time I was asked that question I'd be a wealthy man. >> Well, relationships and trust. I mean, they're pretty fundamental to any partnership and the pandemic certainly has tested us, and we've had to rely on those personal and professional relationships to get us through COVID. So let me start Ryad by asking you, how did the partnership with IBM support you last year? >> Last year as you know was particular year for our industry. So the relationship with our provider was key of the success of any studies we had last year with the new world we had. So we were working very close with IBM Clinical, and I think collaboration was key for successful (indistinct). >> So Tim, I wonder if you could talk about some of the things that you've done with Ryad and his team, maybe some of the things that you accomplished in 2020 anything that stands out. And then maybe take it from there and query Ryad on some of the more important topics that are top of mind for you. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think in 2020, we all know it was a challenging year but IBM actually put together a really good program to support our clients as as it relates to COVID-19 trials. And Veristat did a great job of taking advantage of that with a number of their clients that offered a free promotion for 18 months of a subscription to support individual sponsors in their efforts and trying to find a vaccine that supports the whole world out there. So I think we put together a program that Veristat and their clients were able to take advantage of as it relates to COVID. But in addition to that the platform supported their efforts to maintain the clinical trials that were ongoing. And that was actually probably even bigger challenge for the Veristat team. >> Yeah, so maybe do a little mock session here. Tim you're used to role-playing so let's do a little role-playing. So we're in 2021 you guys are sitting down, unfortunately you're not face-to-face, but imagine you were and Ryad, talk about the objectives that you have in 2021, as you think about your relationship with Watson Health and Tim I'd love for you to respond in real time as to how you're going to help Ryad. Ryad kick it off, what are you trying to get done in 2021? What's the priority? >> Let me take a step back from 2020 and I go to 2021. I think one of the biggest challenge we have in 2021 with studies we had, is the extreme rapid startup of several projects we had. So we needed to start, design and push studies live in the record time. We were able to design a study in a week, another study in two weeks from the protocol to the goal of the study. And all that was with the collaboration of IBM, of course. And 2020 actually brought a change of the approach the client have to the study. So now they are more willing to use more electronic solutions than before. 2020 forced our client and the industry in general to look at the solutions offered electronically by the ADC provider by IBM Clinical. So right now in 2021, we will be leveraging those solutions, I'm thinking about monitoring module, I'm thinking about ePRO, I'm thinking about eConsent which is coming soon and I'm thinking about visualization as well. So these solutions provided by the system are now more acceptable than before and we will be used in 2021. Visualization is in the top list of these solutions eConsent comes with it as well. >> Alright so Tim, how are you going to help? How's Watson Health going to be a great partner in 2021 and beyond? >> Well, I think IBM is continuing to focus on what do these solutions mean going forward and how can we extend the functionality of our platform out there? So with the release of eConsent that's something that I believe Veristat can take advantage of. And the near term is just a matter of getting the Veristat team educated on our eConsent functionality to be able to offer that out to their clients. And visualization is another area that we've had a number of discussions with Veristat on over the past 12 months and leveraging the tool set that we are able to bring to the table with smart reports and how that can provide additional value and then finding that balance where we can get them off the ground quickly maybe with some pre-packaged reports but also educating their team so that they're able to take that tool set and be able to extend that functionality to their clients. >> So Ryad what's the situation like? I wonder if you could think pre pandemic, post pandemic. A lot of clients that I talked to, they would talk the digital game, but in reality it's not that simple. You know things are done a certain way and then I've often called it the forced march to become digital. And that's kind of what happened to us. And so I'm curious as to your sense as to what the climate was like pre and post? How much if at all, I have to believe that everybody's digital strategies were compressed, but was it months? Was it years? And it was sort of overnight we had to make the changes. So it was like a Petri dish. You really didn't have time to plan, you just did. So by how much was that digital transformation compressed and what were the learnings and how do you see taking that forward? >> We historically would go to clients with solutions and you know human nature resists to change. So when we go offering electronic solutions before the pandemic, we always had to define, to use a lot of argument actually to explain to the client that this is the way to go. This is the time to do use more electronic solutions. With the pandemic, the fear forced the client to use these solutions. And they realized that it's working. They realize that we can do it. We can do it very well. Even for complex study, solutions are available and can be used. We also was forced somehow to shorten our timeline to find best way to push studies live in as short as possible timelines without jeopardizing the quality, finding solutions. Splitter is one of the solutions IBM can offer so this is one of the solution we used. The release of the ECRS done later in the edit. IBM offered the capability to do that without jeopardizing the quality. >> So Tim, maybe you could chime in here. I mean, that's really important point. We had sort of no choice but to rush into digital and electronic last year how do you help clients maintain that quality? Maybe you guys could talk amongst yourselves as to the kinds of things you did to maintain that both, when things were going crazy and they somewhat still are. And then how do you preserve that going forward maybe turn the dial maybe a little bit based on your learnings. >> I think one of the advantages that our platform brings to the table is the flexibility. And that flexibility is what Veristat was able to take advantage of in different situations, in different parts of the platform. So whether that was the ability to design trials very quickly and be very flexible with the rollout of that trial to address specific timelines or just the different areas of the platform like ePRO to be able to extend things out to their clients as well so that patients are entering data into the clinical trial so that they're not having to go visit sites necessarily out there. So there's a lot of things that we have within the platform that our clients are able to take advantage of that really came into full focus in the year of 2020. >> Does that resonate with you Ryad? Do you trust what Tim just said? Does it give you a good feeling based on your experience? How confident are you that IBM can deliver on that objective? >> Yeah, actually the pressure we received from the industry in general, in the last year and still this year is to always shorten with high quality deliverables. So we were able to use the flexibility IBM system offers to achieve that goal. Splitting release performing a complex MSU successfully. So all these features and the flexibility we have with the status and flexibility we have with the user roles all these features and flexibilities was key performing that high quality MSU complex updates and in the record time. >> I wonder if you could each talk about sort of personally and bring it professional if you like, but how have you changed as a result of the pandemic and how has it helped you position for what's coming ahead? Ryad maybe you you could start. >> One of the things I'd like to say about what happened last year is that, it has never been easier for me to explain what I do. Historically, when I asked what do they exactly? I had to spend hours explaining what I do. Now I tell them, do you know what's the phase three phase two we are all waiting for the vaccine? That's what we do. So that's I think the number one success of the year for me. Honestly, it's just proud to work in an industry like that. Proud to work in a company like Veristat who cares about the quality who cares about providing the safety of the patient using the best system in the market working with IBM Clinical in this case. We're working to achieve that goal. I think 2020 gave me that just another level of proud maybe, if I may say. Partnership with client, partnership with IBM offered free for COVID studies for an 18-month program. So all of these just confirm that we are, I am personally in the right place, right company, having the right partnership to help humanity actually get better. >> Thank you for that, that's great. And Tim, you too you're obviously part of that, but I wonder if you could comment. >> Well, I'd like to kind of echo just what Ryad had said that professionally I feel we play a very small part. The Veristat team, the Sponsors team they do all the hard work, trying to find new medications, new vaccines to bring to life. But it means a lot to play a small part in that process to offer a technology that helps them do that quicker. And if we can get those drugs and vaccines to market quicker then that's going to have a very positive impact on the world as a whole. So it's a very exciting time to be in this industry. >> Undoubtedly. Ryad what can IBM do to help you near-term, mid-term and long-term? What are some of the most important things that Tim and his company can help with? >> Yeah, as Tim mentioned, we will have eConsent coming soon. I'm sure IBM will have other electronic solution coming soon so partnership, support and training. So education between our two entities between Veristat and IBM to use this new feature now became key for the success of any study. So I expect partnership support on an education from them. We've been successfully doing that and hoping that we'll continue in this case. >> Tim, any comments on that? >> Well, we have a great relationship with Veristat and we try to have that same kind of relationship with all of our clients. We meet regularly with governance meetings. That's a great time to share new information, to revisit old questions that may still be out there. And so, we're going to continue to offer the additional training options to our clients to allow them to leverage that platform so that they can then cater to their clients, the sponsors that are contracting with them for their clinical trials. >> So Ryad, Tim did say lower the price. That's a good sign. What about that though? What about value for investment? How Ryad would you grade IBM's track record in that regard? If you had to put a grade on it, you know, A, B, C, D, E, F. >> I would put a good grade, actually. I think it's the right balance. You know, a client expect always to pay less, but we are the experts, we are doing the job. And we have to guide them, make the right decision. We tell them why they should pick that or that system. And what are they getting for the price they're paying for. Right now we didn't have much trouble selling IBM and there is something common I think so, is to revise the price to be more specific for study, I think will help the client actually. Will help selling the products. >> So if you had to put a letter grade on it what would you give them? >> A grade? (chuckles) >> A grade, come on A, B? >> An A. >> An A, you'd give them an A? >> Yes. Solid A, 4.0 that's great, Tim you got a-- >> A minus to just leave some space for improvement. (Tim chuckles) >> Okay A minus just because, hold the carrot out there right? That's good, it's okay. Tim, how do you feel about that? You don't mind having a little extra incentive, right? >> No, absolutely not. It's always great to work with the Veristat team and we have I think a great relationship and there are certainly opportunities that we can hopefully work together. And If the price needs to be addressed then we can address it and win the business. >> Tim, anything I missed? Anything that you feel like there's a gap there that you want to cover that I didn't touch on? >> No, I think we're good. >> Great, awesome. Well, great conversation guys. I really appreciate it and thanks for the good work that you guys are doing on behalf of everybody who's living through this. It's a critical time and it's amazing how your industry has responded so thank you for that. And thank you for spending some time with us. You're watching Client Conversations with IBM Watson Health.

>>Welcome to this IBM Watson health client conversation here. We're probing the dynamics of the relationship between IBM and its clients. And we're looking back, we're exploring the present situation and discussing the future state of healthcare. My name is Dave Volante from the cube and with me are Alex Dillard. Who's a senior director data analysis at blue choice, blue choice health plan, and Darryl decode, who is IBM with IBM Watson health. Of course. Welcome gentlemen. Good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Hey, >>So, you know, you think about lasting relationships. They're the foundation to any partnership and this past year, and it's tested all of us. We've had to rely on both personal and professional relationships to get us through the pandemic. So Alex, let me start with you. How has the partnership with IBM supported you in 2020? >>Well, uh, I've just a piece of a larger puzzle. Uh, the relationship that Darrell and I have had is confined to IBM Watson health, but blue cross blue shield, South Carolina, which food choice is a wholly owned subsidiary of has had a standing relationship with IBM on the it side. Uh, we are a mainframe shop, uh, about 70% of our it infrastructure is on a mainframe. And, uh, that puts us as a segment one client for IBM, we're in the top 300 of all of their clients in the Americans. And more specifically we're the fourth largest, um, uh, Linux on Z shop in the world. So, uh, we've got a lot of diversification at blue cross blue shield of South Carolina and the mainframe and the vastness of that. It infrastructure reflects that, uh, diversification. We are more than just a crossing the shield. Uh, that's typically what people think of is insurance when they think of crossing shield, but we also have a division that does a lot of subcontract work for government programs, uh, track air, which is the military healthcare, uh, claims processing and Medicare claims processing. >>We were a subcontractor of other folks that use our back office, it infrastructure to, to run their claims through. So that's, that's the larger, um, aspect of our relationship that, that blue cross blue shield of South Carolina house with IBM, uh, as it relates to Watson health, we have been a client since 1994 and obviously that predates the IBM proper. Uh, we were a client of med stat and then Truven, who then, uh, was bought by IBM. So we have used the products from Watson health throughout our system to support provider profiling, uh, count group reporting, um, and ad hoc analysis and to some extent to, uh, support our value-based products with, uh, ACO and PCMH, >>Uh, products. >>Awesome. Thank you for that. So Daryl is very long-term relationship. Obviously, if people forget sometimes that, uh, how IBM has modernized the Z Alex talked about, uh, Linux on the mainframe. That's pretty cool. I wonder if you could talk about specifically the things that, that you've done with Alex in his, in his, in his team, you know, thinking back last year, what were your accomplishments that you really stand out? >>Yeah, so, so one thing that jumps to mind is, uh, given the long standing relationship, I relied heavily on Alex to help us work through a multi-year renewal. And it was, it was a, um, a good adventure for us. We, we were able to laugh along the way. We certainly had some, some phone calls that, that were a little bit challenging, but the great thing about it was that the relationship that Alex and I had, he really views it as a partnership. And that was just so encouraging and uplifting. So to me, from my perspective, that was absolutely, uh, one of the highlights of my year and working through even through the pandemic and all that, we figured it out. >>So you guys, when you get together, go ahead, please. >>That's what I had as well. Um, you know, the, the unique thing about the Watson health contract is because it involves data. Uh, we take the stance that it's an it contract, so I'm on the business side. So I've got to just, as Daryl has to navigate it with me, we've got to navigate a large of your it bureaucracy. Um, and, uh, it, it was challenging. Um, you know, the business people kind of smooth the tracks and then you get the lawyers involved in, it just goes haywire. So, um, we were able to navigate that. Um, uh, so yeah, so it was a big accomplishment. So Alex, it's not real sexy to talk about, but we got it done >>Well. So Alex you're, you're in sales, so you're, you're used to role playing. So imagine you're, you're, you're sitting down, uh, sorry, Darryl. You're used to, role-playing out. Imagine you're sitting down with Alex and you're thinking about 20, 21 planning, so, you know, take it away. W what do you, what would you ask, what would you talk about or share with us? >>Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, so I, I know that, you know, one of the key objectives is, uh, continued to ingest, engage with your members and you have key business strategies. I know you recently migrated over to a new PBM, and so there, there's some complexities that come with that. Um, but just, you know, Alex, if you don't mind, why don't you share a little bit about kind of your, your perspective on what 2020 would hold for you in your organization? Well, I think that due to the pandemic, we are, I personally kick the, can down the road on a couple of things, particularly >>Having a strategic roadmap discussion, um, you know, uh, I was going to get into this later, but I enjoy doing things face-to-face rather than, uh, over the phone or, or virtually. And so, uh, I guess I was a little too optimistic about maybe being able to get together late 2020 to have that strategic roadmap discussion. Um, I think, uh, given what has developed with, um, the pandemic and vaccines and stuff, I may, I may be able to get everybody on the same page later this year, hopefully. Uh, but certainly we want to have a strategic roadmap discussion. Um, we license, uh, Watson Hills, uh, cat group insights, uh, tool, which we use for employer group reporting. And we are currently in the beginning stages of rolling that out to our external clients, whether it's agents, brokers, um, those types of folks. And then it vanished we as our core product that we use for analysis, and that product is transitioning to what is called health insights. And so from an analytical standpoint, my staff and the staff of our cluster areas will need to sort of move to health insights since that's where it's going, uh, from an analytic standpoint. So we're going to work on that as well. Um, and then some more detailed things around database rebuilds and stuff like that. Those are all sort of on the roadmap for 2021. >>Yeah. So, you know, you talk about strategic planning and you think about the way planning used to be. I mean, sometimes you take a longer term horizon, maybe that's five years, you know, technology cycles, you know, even though they go very fast, but you see major technology shifts, they're like go through these seven year cycles, you see that in financial world. And then with the, with the pandemic, we're talking about seven day cycles, you know, how do I support people work from home? Do I open the store or not? You know, it's a day-to-day type of thing. So I wonder if you could each talk about personally and professionally w how, how is 2020, you know, changed you and maybe position you for, for what's ahead, maybe Alex, you could start, >>Well, you know, I'm an analyst, so I always fall back to the numbers. What are the numbers show us, um, you know, people can have four perceptions, but, uh, the numbers give us a reality. So the reality is that a year ago, pre pandemic, uh, just 13% of blue cross blue shield employees were working from home a hundred percent, uh fast-forward to today. And that number is now 87%. So think about, uh, just the lift from a it infrastructure to support that we almost, all of those people are using Citrix to get in to our network. Uh, we're using a remote desktop. So you've got this pipeline that probably had to go from, you know, this small, to huge, to get all this bandwidth, all this data and everything. So you've got that huge lift. Um, and then it affects different areas, um, differently. Uh, I don't have any first-line staff, any staff that are member facing, so I didn't really have to navigate, you know, how do these people talk to our member? >>How does staff talk to our members on the phone when they're at home, as opposed to in the office, and, you know, is there background noise, things like that. So I've got analysts, uh, they're just crunching numbers. Um, but my, my, my personal, uh, feeling was I like doing managing by walking around, you know, stopping and talking to other, working on. So that went away and I like face-to-face meetings, as I've mentioned, and that went away. So it was really a culture change for me personally, it was a culture change for our organization. Uh, and, and now we're having conversations with executive management that, you know, if you've got staff who have been doing a good job and they remain productive, you know, give me a reason they got to come back in, which is just, as you told me that I'm going to be the case a year ago, I would have been, you know, flabbergasted, but that's where we are right now. >>And so on a personal standpoint, you know, I went home for a little while and then came back. And so my wife also works for blue cross blue shield of South Carolina. Um, so, you know, she set up in the dining room working, uh, I have my own book in our living room working, and then we've got a great side, you know, the school is not in session, you know, in person. So he's doing virtual learning. So combine all those things, and you've got all kinds of crazy things that could happen. Uh, and then you've got staff who are in the same situation. Um, so it was a lot to handle. And the longer it goes on the novelty of working from home wears off, and you kind of realize, you know, I can't go do this. I can't go out to eat. I can't do all types of things that I used to do. And so that affects your mental health. So as, as a leader, um, of my small area, and then our executives really had to become more, uh, uh, in, in people's faces. So we've got, we've done a lot more video, uh, messages, a lot more emails. Um, I have been tasked with being very deliberate about checking on how everything is going at their house. Are they getting what they need? Um, you know, how are they feeling? Are they getting up and exercising, all those things that you took for granted, uh, beforehand. >>Yeah. So Daryl, anything you'd add to that in terms of specifically in terms of how you might, how you might change the way in which you interact with your clients generally, uh, an Alex specifically, Alex likes, face to face, you know, we can't wait. All right. >>Yeah, yeah. It's funny. We never quite got to do it Alex, but we were talking about doing a virtual happy hour at one point too, to just celebrate the success. Um, but for me, you know, typically I would travel and visit Alex face-to-face on maybe a monthly basis. And so it it's been really hard for me. I didn't realize how, how much I enjoyed that in-person interaction. And so that, that was something that I I've been, you know, working through and finding ways to, to still interact with people. And I'm certainly making, making the best of, of the video phone calls and, you know, that sort of thing. So, uh, just work working to maintain those relationships. >>I wonder if I could ask you when, when, when this thing, when we're through the pandemic, what do you expect the work from home percentage? I think I heard 13% prior to the pandemic, 87% today. What do you think is going to be post pandemic? >>That is a good question. Um, it, it may go back to maybe 60% at home. I think, I think there will be a simple majority, uh, working from home. Um, that's, that's from our planning, uh, space planning standpoint. That's, that's what we are, uh, what we're expecting, um, if, if production stays, um, at acceptable levels, um, >>Do you feel like productivity was negatively impacted positive? It will be impacted or it's kind of weird. >>Yeah. All the metrics that we track show that it was, it was sustained and in some areas even better. Uh, and if you really think about, um, sort of your typical day when you work from home, I found, uh, that I was logged on an hour earlier. That's probably what's happening with other staff as well is they're, they're motivated to get up and, and get online, uh, earlier. >>Yeah. Mostly tech leaders that I talk to share that sentiment, that the productivity is actually improved. So Darryl, I presume you see the same thing in your observation space. Yeah. >>Yeah. I, I do. And, and I have other clients too, and, and, and they are definitely looking at ways to continue to work remotely. I know that for a lot of people who are in the office all the time, uh, having a little bit more flexibility when you work from home can be a good thing. And, and like you said, you, you have to make sure that the productivity is still there and the productivity is up. Um, but I, I could see that the trend continuing absolutely >>I'd love for you to, to look at Darryl and say, and tell him what the kinds of things that IBM can do to help you both today, immediately 20, 21, and in the future and a Darryl, how, how your, how you'll respond. >>Well, I'll tell you that. Um, so in 2020, what, what changed most dramatically for us as a health plan? Uh, and, and I, it echoes what we see across the country is the gigantic shift in telehealth. Um, you know, if, if, again, if you look at the numbers, uh, our telehealth visits per thousand, so that's the number of visits per thousand members in a given month, went up 1472%. And so, you know, the common response to that is, well, you know, your visits overall probably, you know, were flat because, uh, you know, they just weren't happening in that. And that's not necessarily true for us. So if you look at visits overall, they written down four and a half percent. Um, so there was a shift, but it, it was not a big enough shift to account for, uh, visits overall sustaining the level that they were pre pandemic. >>Um, so as we look into 2021, uh, we will be investigating how we can maintain, uh, the, uh, the accessibility of our healthcare providers via telehealth. Um, you know, one of the projects that we started in 2020, uh, was based upon the choosing wisely campaign. So if you're not familiar with choosing wisely, it's a very well thought out process. It involves many, many provider specialties and its sole target is to reduce low value care. Uh, so we took it upon ourselves to Institute sort of a mirror of that plan or that program at, at blue cross here in South Carolina. And so as we moved to 2021, obviously those low value services just because of the pandemic were reduced, uh, and some of the high-value care was reduced as well. And so what we are going to try to do is bring back habit, bring back that high value care, but not bring back that low value care and so low value care or things like vitamin D testing. Uh, it can be other things like, um, uh, CT for head headaches, um, imaging for low abdominal pain, things like that. So, uh, we want to focus on low, uh, eliminating what value care, bringing back high value care, >>Okay, Dale, you're up? How are you going to help Alex achieve that? So, so good news is, is that we've got the analytic warehouse and the database where all of the data is captured. And so we we've got the treasure trove of information and data. And so what we'll do is we'll come alongside Alex and his team will do the analytics, we'll provide the analytic methods measures, and we'll also help him uncover where perhaps those individuals may be, who had postponed care, um, because of the pandemic. And so we can put together strategies to help make sure that they get the care that they need. Uh, I also a hundred percent agree that tele-health hopefully is something that will continue because I do think that that is a good way and efficient way to get care for people. Um, and, you know, as a, as, as a way to, to address some of their needs and, and in, in a safe way too. >>So, um, I, I look forward to working with Alec and his team over this coming year. I think there is, uh, knowing Alex and, and the partnership and his readiness to be a client reference for us. You know, those are all great, um, recognition of how he partners with us. And we really value and appreciate, uh, the relationship that we have with blue cross blue shield, South Carolina and, and blue choice. Excellent. Daryl's right. The, the, the database we use already has some of that low value care measures baked into it. And so throughout 2020, I've worked with our analytic consulting team. Uh, it's under Daryl too, to talk about what's on the product product roadmap for adding to the cadre of live low value care measures inside advantage suite. Uh, so that's something that we'll actively be, um, uh, discussing because certainly, you know, we're, we're obviously not the only client only health plan clients. So there may be other plans that have priorities that very different made very differently than ours. Uh, so we want to give them what we're studying, what we're interested in, so they can just add it in to all their other client feedback, uh, for advantage suites, roadmap. Excellent. >>Look, my last question, Alex is how would you grade IBM, if you had to take a bundle of sort of attributes, you know, uh, delivery, uh, value for service relationship, uh, et cetera, how would you grade the job that IBM is doing? >>I, the thing that I enjoy most about working with IBM and Darryl specifically, is that they're always challenging us to look at different things. Um, things that sometimes we hadn't considered, because obviously it may be an issue for another health plan client or an employer client that they've got. Uh, they tell us, this is what we're seeing. You know, you should look at it. Uh, a lot of times they do some of the foundational work in producing a report to show us what they're seeing in our data that is similar to what is in some of their other clients data. So that's refreshing to be, uh, challenged by IBM to look at things that we may not be, uh, looking at, uh, or maybe missing, because we've got our eye on the ball on something else you >>Care to put a letter grade on that. >>Oh, definitely. Definitely. Thank you. >>Well, Darryl, congratulations, that says a lot and, uh, we have to leave it there and one at a time, but, but Daryl, anything that I didn't ask Alex, that you, you wanted me to, >>So, um, Alex re able to keep your tennis game up during the pandemic? Uh, I, yes, I tried as, as often as my wife would let me good. I would play every time I was asked, but, uh, yeah, so I, I did have to temper it a little bit, although when you spend all day with her and, and my son, you know, she may be a little more, uh, lenient on letting me leave the house. Well, maybe she's >>Yeah. The tribute to the late great comedian Mitch Hedberg, who says, uh, you know, when I, I played tennis, I played against the wall walls. Really good, hard to beat if it's pandemic appropriate. >>Oh, that's good. That's a true statement. And there was a lot of that going on, a lot of that play and playing against the wall. >>Hey, thanks so much, stay safe and really appreciate the time. Thank you. >>Thank you. Thank you. You're >>Really welcome. It was a great conversation and thank you for watching and spending some time with client conversations with IBM Watson health.

>> Welcome to this IBM Watson Health client conversation. And we're probing the dynamics of the relationship between IBM and it's clients. We're going to look back at some of the challenges of 2020 and look forward to, you know, present year's priorities. We'll also touch on the future state of healthcare. My name is Dave Vellante. I'll be your host and I'm from theCUBE. And with me are Doctor Alex Towbin, who's Associate Chief Clinical Operations and Informatics at Cincinnati ChilDoctoren's Hospital and John Chrisman of course from IBM Watson health. Welcome gentlemen, Good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having us. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> Yeah I know from talking to many clients around the world, of course virtually this past year, 11 months or so that relationships with technology partners they've been critical over during the pandemic to really help folks get through that. Not that we're through it yet but, we're still through the year now, there's I'm talking professionally and personally and Doctor Towbin, I wonder if you could please talk about 2020 and what role the IBM partnership played in helping Cincinnati children's, you know press on in the face of incredible challenges? >> Yeah, I think our story of 2020 really starts before the pandemic and we were fortunate to be able to plan a disaster and do disaster drill scenarios. And so, as we were going through those disaster drill scenarios, we were trying to build a solution that would enable us to be able to work if all of our systems were down and we worked with IBM Watson Health to design that solution to implement it, it involves using other solutions from our primary one. And we performed that disaster drill in the late January, early February timeframe of 2020. And while that drill had nothing to do with COVID it got us thinking about how to deal with a disaster, how to prepare for a disaster. And so we've just completed that and COVID was coming on the horizon. I'm starting to hear about it coming into the U.S for the first time. And we took that very seriously on our department. And so, because we had prepared for this this disaster drill had gone through the entire exercise and we built out different scenarios for what could happen with COVID what would be our worst case scenarios and how we would deal with them. And so we were able to then bring that to quickly down to two options on how our department and our hospital would handle COVID and deal with that within the radiology department and like many other sites that becomes options of working from home or working in a isolated way and an and an office scenario like where I'm sitting now and we planned out both scenarios and eventually made the decision. Our decision at that point was to work in our offices. We're fortunate to have private offices where we can retreat to and something like that. And so then our relationship with IBM was helpful and that we needed to secure more pieces of hardware. And so even though IBM is our PACS vendor and our enterprise imaging vendor, they also help us to secure the high resolution monitors that are needed. And we needed a large influx of those during the pandemic and IBM was able to help us to get those. >> Wow! So yeah you were able to sort of test your organization resilience before the pandemic. I mean, John, that's quite an accomplishment for last year. I'm sure there are many others. I wonder if one of you could pick it up from here and bring your perspectives into it and, you know maybe ask any questions that you would like to ask them. >> Yeah, sure, Doctor Towbin, that's great that we were able to help you with the hardware and procure things. So I'm just curious before the pandemic how many of the radiologists ever got to read from home, was that a luxury back then? And then post pandemic, are you guys going to shift to how many are on-site versus remote? >> Yeah, so we have a couple of scenarios. We've had talk about it both from our PACS perspective as well as from our VNA enterprise imaging perspective from PACS perspective we always designed our solution to be able to work from a home machine. Our machines, people would access that through a hospital-based VPN. So they would log in directly to VPN and then access the PACS that way. And that worked well. And many of our radiologists do that particularly when they're on call works best for our neuroradiologist who are on call a little bit more frequently. And so they do read from home in that scenario. With enterprise imaging and are used to the enterprise viewer and iConnect access. We always wanted that solution to work over the internet. And so it's set up securely through the internet but not through the VPN. And we have radiologists use that as a way to view studies from home, even not from home, so it can be over one of their mobile devices, such as an iPad and could be at least reviewing studies then. We, for the most part for our radiologist in the hospital that's why we made the decision to stay in the hospital. At COVID time, we have such a strong teaching mission in our department in such a commitment to the education of our trainees. We think that hospital being in the hospital is our best way to do that, it's so hard. We find to do it over something like zoom or other sharing screen-sharing technology. So we've stayed in and I think we'll continue to stay in. There will be some of those needs from a call perspective for example, reading from home, and that will continue. >> And then what's your success been with this with the technology and the efficiency of reading from home? Do you feel like you're just as efficient when you're at home versus onsite? >> The technology is okay. The, our challenges when we're reading from the PACS which is the preferred way to do it rather than the enterprise archive, the challenge is we have to use the PACS So we have to be connected through VPN which limits our bandwidth and that makes it a little bit slower to read. And also the dictation software is a little bit slower when we're doing it. So moving study to study that rapid turnover doesn't happen but we have other ways to make, to accelerate the workflow. We cashed studies through the worklist. So they're on the machine, they load a little bit more rapidly and that works pretty well. So not quite as fast, but not terrible. >> We appreciate your partnership. I know it's been going on 10 years. I think you guys have a policy that you have to look at the market again every 10 years. So what do you think of how the market's changed and how we've evolved with the VNA and with the zero footprint viewers? A lot of that wasn't available when you initially signed up with Amicas years ago, so. >> Yeah, we signed up so we've been on this platform and then, you know now the IBM family starting in 2010, so it's now now 11 years that we're, we've been on as this version of the PACS and about eight, seven or eight years from the iConnect platform. And through that, we've seen quite an evolution. We were one of the first Amicas clients to be on version six and one of the largest enterprises. And that went from, we had trouble at the launch of that product. We've worked very closely with Amicas then to merge. And now IBM from the development side, as well as the support side to have really what we think is a great product that works very well for us and drives our entire workflow all the operations of our department. And so we've really relished that relationship with now IBM. And it's been a very good one, and it's allowed us to do the things like having disaster drill planning that we talked about earlier as far as where I see the market I think PACS in particular is on the verge of the 3.0 version as a marketplace. So PACSS 1 one was about building the packs, I think, and and having electronic imaging digital imaging, PACS 2.0 is more of web-based technology, getting it out of those private networks within a radiology department. And so giving a little bit more to the masses and 3.0 is going to be more about incorporating machine learning. I really see that as the way the market's going to go and to where I think we're at the infancy of that part of the market now about how do you bring books in for machine learning algorithms to help to drive workflow or to drive some image interpretation or analysis, as far as enterprise imaging, we're on the cusp of a lot there as well. So we've been really driving deep with enterprise imaging leading nationally enterprise imaging and I have a role in the MSAM Enterprise Imaging Community. And through all of that work we've been trying to tackle works well from enterprise imaging point of view the challenges are outside of radiology, outside of cardiology and the places where we're trying to deal with medical photos, the photographs taken with a smart device or a digital camera of another type, and trying to have workflow that makes sense for providers not in those specialty to that don't have tools like a DICOM modality workloads store these giant million-dollar MRI scanners that do all the work for you, but dealing with off the shelf, consumer electronics. So making sure the workflow works for them, trying to tie reports in trying to standardize the language around it, so how do we tag photos correctly so that we can identify relevancy all of those things we're working through and are not yet standard within our, within the industry. And so we're doing a lot there and trying and seeing the products in the marketplace continuing to evolve around that on the viewer side, there's really been a big emergence as you mentioned about the zero footprint viewers or the enterprise viewer, allowing easy access easy viewing of images throughout the enterprise of all types of imaging through obtained in the enterprise and will eventually incorporate video pathology. The market is also trying to figure out if there can be one type of viewer that does them all that and so that type of universal viewer, a viewer that cardiologists can use the same as a radiologist the same as a dermatologist, same as a pathologist we're all I think a long way away from that. But that's the Marcus trying to figure those two things out. >> Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with your assessment. You talked about the non DICOM areas, and I know you've you've partnered with us, with ImageMover and you've got some mobile device capture taking place. And you're looking to expand that more to the enterprise. Are you also starting to use the XDS registry? That's part of the iConnect enterprise archive, or as well as wrapping things in DICOM, or are you going to stick with just wrapping things in DICOM? >> Yeah, so far we've been very bunched pro DICOM and using that throughout the enterprise. And we've always thought, or maybe we've evolved to think that there is going to be a role for XDS are I think our early concerns with XDS are the lack of other institutions using it. And so, even though it's designed for portability if no one else reads it, it's not portable. If no one else is using that. But as we move more and more into other specialties things like dermatology, ophthalmology, some of the labeling that's needed in those images and the uses, the secondary uses of those images for education, for publication, for dermatology workflow or ophthalmology workflow, needs to get back to that native file and the DICOM wrap may not make sense for them. And so we've been actively talking about switching towards XDS for some of the non DICOM, such as dermatology. We've not yet done that though. >> Given the era children's hospital has the impact on your patient load, then similar to what regular adult hospitals are, or have you guys had a pretty steady number of studies over the last year? >> In relay through the pandemic, we've had, it has been decreased, but children fortunately have not been as severely affected as adults. There is definitely disease in children and we see a fair amount of that. There are some unique things that happen in kids but that fortunately rare. So there's this severe inflammatory response that kids can get and can cause them to get very sick but it is quite rare. Our volumes are, I think I'm not I think our volumes are stable and our advanced imaging things like CT, MRI, nuclear medicine, they're really most decreased in radiography. And we see some weird patterns, inpatient volumes are relatively stable. So our single view chest x-rays, for example, have been stable. ER, visits are way down because people are either wearing masks, isolating or not wanting to come to the ER. So they're not getting sick with things like the flu or or even common colds or pneumonias. And so they're not coming into the ER as much. So our two view x-rays have dropped by like 30%. And so we were looking at this just yesterday. If you follow the graphs for the two we saw a dip of both around March, but essentially the one view chest were a straight line and the two view chest were a straight line and in March dropped 30 to 50% and then stayed at that lower level. Other x-rays are on the, stay at that low level side. >> Thanks, I know in 2021 we've got a big upgrade coming with you guys soon and you're going to stay in our standalone mode. I understand what the PACSS and not integrate deeply to the VNA. And so you'll have a couple more layers of storage there but can you talk about your excitement about going to 8.1 and what you're looking forward to based on your testimony. >> Yeah we're actually in, we're upgrading as we're talking which is interesting, but it's a good time for talking. I'm not doing that part of the work. And so our testing has worked well. I think we're, we are excited. We, you know, we've been on the product as I mentioned for over 10 years now. And for many of those years we were among the first, at each version. Now we're way behind. And we want to get back up to the latest and greatest and we want to stay cutting edge. There've been a lot of reasons why we haven't moved up to that level, but we do. We're very careful in our testing and we needed a version that would work for us. And there were things about previous versions that just didn't and as you mentioned, we're staying in that standalone mode. We very much want to be on the integrated mode in our future because enterprise imaging is so important and understanding how the comparisons fit in with the comparison in dermatology or chest wall deformity clinic, or other areas how those fit into the radiology story is important and it helped me as a radiologist be a better radiologist to see all those other pictures. So I want them there but we have to have the workflow, right. And so that's the part that we're still working towards and making sure that that fits so we will get there. It'll probably be in the next year or two to get to that immigrating mode. >> As you, look at the number of vendors you have I think you guys prefer to have less vendor partners than than more I know in the cardiology area you guys do some cardiology work. What has been the history or any, any look to the future of that related to enterprise imaging? Do you look to incorporate more of that into a singular solution? >> Cardiology is entirely part of our enterprise imaging solution. We all the cardiology amendments go to our vendor neutral archive on the iConnect platform. All of them are viewed across the enterprise using our enterprise viewer. They have their unique specialty viewer which is, you know, fine. I'm a believer that specialty, different specialties, deserve to have their specialty viewers to do theirs specialty reads. And at this point I don't think the universal viewer works or makes sense until we have that. And so all the cardiology images are there. They're all of our historical cardiology images are migrated and part of our enterprise solution. So they're part of the entire reference the challenge is they're just not all in PACSS. And so that's where, you know, an example, great example, why we need to get to this to the integrated mode to be able to see those. And the reason we didn't do that is the cardiology archive is so large to add a storage to the PACS archive. Didn't make sense if we knew we were going to be in an integrated mode eventually, and we didn't want to double our PACS storage and then get rid of it a couple of years later. >> So once you're on a new version of merge PACS and you're beyond this, what are your other goals in 2021? Are you looking to bring AI in? Are you using anybody else's AI currently? >> Yeah, we do have AI clinical it's phone age, so it's not not a ton of things but we've been using it clinically, fully integrated, it launches. When I open a study, when I opened a bone age study impacts it launches we have a bone age calculator as well that we've been using for almost two decades now. And so that we have to use that still but launching that automatically includes the patient's sex and birth date, which are keys for determining bone age, and all that information is there automatically. But at the same time, the images are sent to the machine learning algorithm. And in the background the machine determines a bone age that in the background it sends it straight to our dictation system and it's there when we opened the study. And so if I agree with that I signed the report and we're done. If I disagree, I copy it from my calculator and put it in until it takes just a couple of clicks. We are working on expanding. We've done a lot of research in artificial intelligence and the department. And so we've been things are sort of in the middle of translation of moving it from the research pure research realm to the clinical realm, something we're actively working on trying to get them in. Others are a little bit more difficult. >> That's the question on that John, Doctor, when you talk about injecting, you know machine intelligence into the equation. >> Yeah. >> What, how do you sort of value that? Does that give you automation? Does it improve your quality? Does it speed the outcome and maybe it's all of those but how do you sort of evaluate the impact to your organisation? >> I there's a lot of ways you can do it. And you touched on one of my favorite one of my favorite talking points, in a lot of what we've been doing and early machine learning is around image interpretation helping me as a radiologist to see a finding. Unfortunately, most of the things are fairly simple tasks that it's asking us to do. Like, is there a broken bone? Yes or no, I'm not trying to sound self-congratulatory or anything, but I'm really good at finding broken bones. I get, I've been doing it for a long time and, and radio, you know so machines doing that, they're going to perform as well as I can perform, you know, and that's the goal. Maybe they'll perform a little bit better maybe a little bit worse but we're talking tiny increments there they're really to me, not much value of that it's not something I would want. I don't value that at a time where I think machine learning can have real value around more on some of the things that you mentioned. So can it make me more efficient? Can it do the things that are so annoying that and they'd take, they're so tedious that they make me unhappy. A lot of little measurements for example are like that an example. So in a patient with cancer, we measure a little tumors everywhere and that's really important for their care, but it's tedious and so if a machine could do that in an automated way and I checked it that, you know, patient when because he or she can get that good quality care and I have a, you know, a workflow efficiency game. So that one's important. Another one that would be important is if the machine can see things I can't see. So I'm really good at finding fractures. I'm not really good at understanding what all the pixels mean and, you know in that same patient with cancer, oh what do all the pixels mean in that tumor? I know it's a tumor. I can see the tumor, I can say it's a tumor but sometimes those pixels have a lot of information in them and may give us prognosis, you know, say that this patient may, maybe this patient will do well with this specific type of chemotherapy or a specific or has a better prognosis with one with one drug compared to another. Those are things that we can't usually pick out. You know, it's beyond the level of that are I can perceive that one is really the cutting edge of machine learning. We're not there yet and then the other thing are things that, you know just the behind the scenes stuff that I don't necessarily need to be doing, or, you know so it's the non interpretive artificial intelligence. >> Dave: Right. >> And that's what I've been also trying to push. So an example of when the algorithms that we've been developing here we check airways. And this is a little bit historical in our department, but we want to make sure we're not missing a severe airway infection. That can be deadly, it's incredibly rare. Vaccines have made it go away completely but we still check airways. And so what happens is the technologist takes the x-ray. They come in to ask us if it's okay, we are interrupted from what we're doing. We open up the study, say yes or no. Okay, not okay, if it's not okay they go back, take another study. Then come back to us again and say, is it okay or not? And we repeat this a couple of times it takes them time that they don't need to spend and takes us time. And so we have, we've built an algorithm where the machine can check that and their machine is as good or a little bit worse than us, but give can give that feedback. >> Dave: Got it. >> The challenge is getting that feedback to the technologist quickly. And so that's, that's I think part for us to work on stuff. >> Thank you for that. So, John, we've probably got three or four minutes left. I'll let you bring it home and appreciate that Doctor Towbin >> I think one of the biggest impacts probably I knew this last year with the pandemic, Doctor Towbin is this, I know you're a big foodie. So having been to some good restaurants and dinners with the hot nurse in a house how's the pandemic affected you personally. And some of the things you like to do outside of work. >> Everything is shut down. And everything has changed. I have not left the house since March besides come to work and my family hasn't either. And so we're hardcore quarantining and staying you know, staying out and keeping it home. So we've not gone out to dinner or done much else. >> So its DoorDash and Uber Eats or just learned to cook at home. >> It's all cooking at home. We're fortunate, my wife loves to cook. My kids love to cook. I enjoy cooking, but I don't have the time as often. So we've done a lot of different are on our own experimenting. Maybe when the silver lining one of the things I've really relished about all this is all this time I get to spend with my family. And that closeness that we've been able to achieve because of being confined in our house the whole time. And so I've played get to play video games with my kids every night. We'd been on a big Fortnite Keck lately since it's been down making. So we've been playing that every night since we've watched movies a lot. And so as a family, we've, I it's something I'll look back fondly even though it's been a very difficult time but it's been an enjoyable time. >> I agree, I've enjoyed more family time this year as well, but final question is in 2021, beyond the PACS upgrade what are the top other two projects that you want to accomplish with us this year? And how can we help you? >> I think our big one is are the big projects are unexpanded enterprise imaging. And so we want to continue rolling out to other areas that will include eventually incorporating scopes, all the images from the operating room. We need to be able to get into pathology. I think the pathology is really going to be a long game. Unfortunately, I've been saying that already for 10 years and it's still probably another 10 years ago but we need to go. We can start with the gross pathology images all the pictures that we take for tumor boards and get those in before we start talking about whole slide scanning and getting in more of the more of the photographs in the institution. So we have a route ambulatory but we need inpatient and ER. >> All right one last question. What can IBM do to be a better partner for you guys? >> I think it's keep listening keep listening and keep innovating. And don't be afraid to be that innovative partner sort of thinking as the small company that startup, rather than the giant bohemoth that can sometimes happen with large companies, it's harder. It is fear to turn quickly, but being a nimble company and making quick decisions, quick innovations. >> Great, quick question. How would you grade IBM, your a tough grader? >> It depends on what I am a tough grader but it depends on what, you know as the overall corporate partnership? >> Yeah the relationship. >> I'd say it's A minus. >> Its pretty good. >> I think, I mean, I, we get a lot of love from IBM. I'm talking specifically in the imaging space. I not, maybe not, I don't know as much on the hardware side but we, yeah, we have a really good relationship. We feel like we're listened to and we're valued. >> All right, well guys, thanks so much. >> So even if it's not an A plus- >> Go ahead. >> I think there's some more to, you know, from the to keep innovating side there's little things that we just let you know we've been asking for that we don't always get but understand the company has to make business decisions not decisions on what's best for me. >> Of course got to hold that carrot out too. Well thanks guys, really appreciate your time. Great conversation. >> Yeah, thank you. >> All right and thank you for spending some time with us. You're watching client conversations with IBM Watson Health.

>> Welcome to this IBM Watson Health "Client Conversation." We're probing the dynamics of the relationships between IBM and its clients. And we're going to look back, we're going to explore the present situation and we're going to discuss the future state of healthcare. My name is Dave Vellante from theCUBE and with me are Dr. David Huelsman, who is a radiologist at TriHealth, which is a provider of healthcare in hospitals and John Kritzman who is with of course IBM Watson Health. Gentlemen welcome. Thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> Doctor let me say you're welcome. Let me start with you. As an analyst and a TV host in the tech industry, we often focus so much on the shiny new toy, the new widget, the new software. But when I talk to practitioners, almost to a person, they tell me that the relationship and trust are probably the most important elements of their success, in terms of a vendor relationship. And over the last year, we've relied on both personal and professional relationships to get us through some of the most challenging times any of us have ever seen. So, Dr. Huelsman, let me ask you, and thinking about the challenges you faced in 2020, what does partnership mean to you and how would you describe the relationship with IBM? >> Well, it is exactly the reason why when we started our journey on this enterprise imaging project at TriHealth, that we very early on made the decision We only wanted one vendor. We didn't want to do it piecemeal, like say get a vendor neutral archive from one organization, and the radiology viewer from another. We wanted to partner with the chosen vendor and develop that long-term relationship, where we learn from each other and we mutually benefit each other, in sort of not just have a transactional relationship, but that we share the same values. We share the same vision. And that's what stood out to us is Watson Health imagings vision, mirrored TriHealth's in what we were trying to achieve with our enterprise imaging project. >> You know, let me follow up with that if I could. A lot of times you hear the phrase, "Single throat to choke" and it's kind of a pejorative, right? It's a really negative term. And the way you just described that Dr. Huelsman is you were looking for a partnership. Yeah, sure. Maybe it was more manageable and maybe it was a sort of Singletree, but it was really about the partnership, going forward in a shared vision and really shared ownership of the outcome. Is that a fair characterization? >> Yeah, how about more positive is "One hand to shake." >> Wow, yeah, I love it. (chuckles) One hand to shake. I'm going to steal that line. That's good. I like it. Keep it positive. Okay, John, when you think about the past 12 months and I know you have history with TriHealth, and more recently have rejoined the account, but how would you kind of characterize that relationship and particularly anything you can add about the challenges of the 2020? What stands out to you? >> Yeah, I think going back to your one hand to shake or one vendor to hug all that's not allowed during COVID, but we're excited to be back working with you, I am in particular. And at the beginning of this sales process and RFP when you guys were looking for that vendor partner, we did talk to you about the journey, the journey with AI that we already had mature products on the vendor neutral archive side and all the product pieces that you were looking for. And I know you've recently went live over the last year and you've been working through, crawling through and learning to walk and starting to run, hopefully. And at some point we'll get to the end of the marathon, where you'll have all the AI pieces that you're looking for. But this journey has been eyeopening for all of us, from using consultants in the beginning, to developing different team members to help make you successful. So I think I've been tracking this from the outside looking in, and I'm happy to be back, more working direct with you this year to help ensure your longterm success. >> Yeah, that's great John. You have some history there. I'm going to probe that a little bit. So doctor, you talked about this enterprise imaging project. I presume that's part of, that's one of the vectors of this journey that you're on. What are you trying to accomplish in the sort of near term and midterm in 2021? John mentioned AI, is there a data element to this? Are there other, maybe more important pressing things? What are your main goals for 2021? >> Sure. Well, where we are, where we've started, the first step was getting all of our imaging stored consistently in the same place and in the same way. We had like many health system, as you grow, you acquire facilities, you acquire physician practices and they all have their own small packs system, different ways of storing the data. And so it becomes very unwieldy to be a large organization and try to provide a consistent manner of your physicians interacting with the data, with the imaging in the same way. And so it was a very large dissatisfier in our EMR to, oh if you wanted to see cardiovascular imaging, it's this tab. If you wanted to see radiology, it was this tab. If you wanted to see that, oh you got to go to the media tab. And so our big goal is, okay, let's get the enterprise archive. And so the Watson enterprise archive is to get all of our imaging stored in the same place, in the same way. And so that then our referring physicians and now with our patients as well, that you can view all the imaging, access it the same way and have the same tools. And so that's the initial step. And we're not even complete with that first step, that's where COVID and sort of diverting resources, but it's there, it's that foundation, it's there. And so currently we have the radiology, cardiology, orthopedics and just recently OB-GYN, all of those departments have their images stored on our Watson Enterprise Archive. So the ultimate goal was then any imaging, including not just what you typically think of radiology, but endoscopy and arthroscopy and those sort of images, or wound care images, in that any image, any picture in our organization will be stored on the archive. So that then when we have everything on that archive, it's easier to access consistently with the same tools. But it's also one of the large pieces of partnering with with Watson Health Imaging, is the whole cognitive solutions and AI piece. Is that, well now we're storing all the data in a consistent manner, you can access it in a consistent manner, well then we hope to analyze it in a consistent manner and to use machine learning, and the various protocols and algorithms that Watson Health Imaging develops, to employ those and to provide better care. >> Excellent, thank you for that. John, I wonder if you could add to that? I mean, you've probably heard this story before from other clients, as well as TriHealth, I call it EMR chaos. What can you add to this conversation? I'm particularly interested in what IBM Watson Health brings to the table. >> Sure, we've continued to work with TriHealth. And like we said earlier, you do have to walk before you can run. So a lot of this solution being put in place, was getting that archive stood up and getting all the images transferred out of the legacy systems. And I think that we're nearly done with that process. Doing some find audits, able to turn off some of the legacy systems. So the data is there for the easier to do modalities first, the radiology, the cardiology, the OB, as Dr. Huelsman mentioned and the ortho. And now it's really getting to the exciting point of really optimizing everything and then starting to bring in other ologies from the health system, trying to get everything in that single EMR view. So there was a lot of activity going on last year with optimizing the system, trying to fine tune hanging protocols, make the workflow for everybody, so that the systems are efficient. And I think we will continue on that road this year. We'll continue down further with other pieces of the solution that were not implemented yet. So there's some deeper image sharing pieces that are available. There are some pieces with mobile device image capture and video capture that can be deployed. So we look forward to working in 2021 on some of those areas, as well as the increased AI solutions. >> So Dr. Huelsman I wonder if you could double click on that. I mean if you're talking to IBM, what are the priorities that you have? What do you, what do you really need from Watson Health to get there? >> So I spoke with Daniel early last week, and sort of described it as now we have the foundation, we sort of have the skeleton and now it's time to put meat on the bones. And so what we're excited about is the upcoming patient synopsis would be the first piece of AI cognitive solutions that Watson Health Imaging provides. And it's sort of that partnership of we're not expecting it to be perfect, but is it better than we have today? There is no perfect solution, but does it improve our current workflow? And so we'll be very interested of when we go live with patients synopsis of does this help? Is this better than what we have today? And the focus then becomes partnering with Watson Health Imaging is how do we make it better for ourselves? How do we make it better for you? I think we're a large health organization and typically we're not an academic or heavy research institution, but we take care of a lot of patients. And if we can work together, I think we'll find solutions. It's really that triple aim of how to provide better care, at cheaper costs, with a better experience. And that's what we're all after. And what's your version of patient, the current version of patients synopsis, and okay does it work for us? Well, even if it does, how do we make it better? Or if it doesn't, how do we make it work? And I think if we work together, make it work for TriHealth, you can make it work at all your community-based health organizations. >> Yeah. So, John that brings me to, Dr. Huelsman mentioned a couple of things in terms of the outcomes. Lower costs, better patient experience, et cetera. I mean, generally for clients, how do you measure success? And then specifically with regard to TriHealth, what's that like? What's that part of the partnership? >> Yes, specifically with TriHealth, the measure of success will be when Dr. Huelsman is able to call and be a super reference for us, and have these tools working to his satisfaction. And when he's been able to give us great input from the customer side, to help improve the science side of it. So today he's able to launch his epic EMR in context and he has to dig through the data, looking for those valuable nuggets and with using natural language processing, when he has patients synopsis, that will all be done for him. He'll be able to pull up the study, a CT of the head for instance and he'll be able to get those nuggets of information using natural language processing that Watson services and get the valuable insights without spending five or 10 minutes interrogating the EMR. So we look forward to those benefits for him, from the data analytics side, but then we also look forward to in the future, delivering other AI for the imaging side, to help him find the slices of interest and the defects that are in that particular study. So whether that's with our partner AI solutions or as we bring care advisers to market. So we look forward to his input on those also. >> Can you comment on that Dr. Huelsman? I would imagine that you would be really looking forward to that vision that John just laid out, as well as other practitioners in your organization. Maybe you could talk about that, is that sort of within your reach? What can you tell us? >> Well, absolutely. That was sort of the shared vision and relationship that we hope for and sort of have that shared outlook is we have all this data, how do we analyze it to improve, provide better care cheaper? And there's no way to do that without you harnessing technology. And IBM has been on the cutting edge of technology for my lifetime. And so it's very exciting to have a partnership with WHI and IBM. There's a history, there's a depth. And so how do we work together to advance, because we want the same things. What impressed me was sure, radiology and AI has been in the news and been hyped and some think over-hyped, and what have you. Everyone's after that Holy grail. But it's that sense of you have the engineers that you talk to, but there is an understanding that don't design the system for the engineers, design it for the end user. Design it for the radiologist. Talk to the end user, because it can be the greatest tool in the world, but I can tell you as a radiologist, if it interrupts my workflow, if it interrupts my search pattern for looking at images, it doesn't help me and radiologists won't use it. And so just having a great algorithm won't help. It is how do you present it to the end user? How do I access it? How can I easily toggle on and off, or do I have to minimize and maximize, and log into a different system. We talked earlier is one throat to choke, or one vendor to hug, we only want one interface. Radiologists and users just want to look at their... They have the radiology viewer, they have their PACS, we look at it all day and you don't want to minimize that and bring up something else, you want to keep interacting with what you're used to. And the mouse buttons do the same thing, it's a mouse click away. And that's what the people at Watson Health Imaging that we've interacted with, they get it. They understand that's what a radiologist would want. They want to continue interacting with their PACS, not with a third vendor or another program or something else. >> I love that. That ton of outside in thinking, starting with the radiologist, back to the engineer, not the reverse. I think that's something that IBM, and I've been watching IBM for a long time, it's something that IBM has brought to the table with its deep industry expertise. I maybe have some other questions, but John I wanted to give you an opportunity. Is there anything that you would like to ask Dr. Huelsman that maybe I haven't touched on yet? >> Yeah. Being back on your account this year, what do you see as a success? What would you count as a success at the end of 2021, if we can deliver this year for you? >> The success would be say, at the end of the year, we've got the heavy hitters, all stored on the archive. Do we pick up all the little, we've got the low hanging fruit, now can we go after the line placement imaging and the arthroscopy and dioscomy, and all those smaller volume in pickups, that we truly get all of our imaging stored on that archive. And then the even larger piece is then do we start using the data on the archive with some cognitive solution? I would love to successfully implement, whether it's patient synopsis or one of the care advisors, that we start using sort of the analytics, the machine learning, some AI component that we successfully implement and maybe share good ideas with you. And sure we intend to go live with patient synopsis next month. I would love it by the end of the year, if the version that we're using patients synopsis and we find it helpful. And the version we use is better than what we went live with next month, because of feedback that we're able to give you. >> Great we looked forward to working with you on that. I guess, personally, with the pandemic in 2020, what have you become, I guess in 2020 that maybe you weren't a year ago before the pandemic, just out of curiosity? >> I'm not sure if we're anything different. A mantra that we've used in the department of radiology at TriHealth for a decade, "Improved service become more adaptable." And we're a service industry, so of course we want to improve service, but be adaptable, become more adaptable. And COVID certainly emphasize that need to be adaptable, to be flexible and the better tools we have. It was great early in the COVID when we had the shutdowns, we found ourselves, we have way more radiologists than we had studies that needed interpreted. So we were flexible all often and be home more. Well, the referring physicians don't know like, well is Dr. Huelsman working today? We don't expect them to look up our schedules. If I get a page that, Hey, can you take a look at this? It was great that at that time I didn't have a home workstation, but I had iConnect access. Before there was no way for me to access the images without getting on a VPN and logging on, it takes 10, 15 minutes before I'm able. Instead I could answer the phone, and I'm not going to say, "Oh, I'm sorry, I'm not at the hospital day, call this number someone else will help you." I have my iPad, go to ica.trihealth.com logged on, I'm looking at the images two minutes later. And so the ease of use, the flexibility, it helped us become adaptable. And I anticipate with we're upgrading the radiology viewer and the iConnect access next month as well, to try to educate our referring physicians, of sort of the image sharing capabilities within that next version of our viewer. Because telehealth has become like everywhere else. It's become much more important at TriHealth during this pandemic. And I think it will be a very big satisfier for both referring physicians and patients, that those image sharing capabilities, to be able to look at the same image, see the annotation that either the radiologist or the referring physician, oncologist, whoever is wanting to share images with the patient and the patient's family, to have multiple parties on at the same time. It will be very good. >> With the new tools that you have for working from home with your full workstation, are you as efficient reading at home? >> Yes. >> And having full access to the PACS as in-house? >> Absolutely. >> That's great to hear. Have you been able to take advantage of using any of the collaboration tools within iConnect, to collaborate with a referring physician, where he can see your pointer and you can see his, or is that something we need to get working? >> Hopefully if you ask me that a year from now, the answer will be yes. >> So does that exit a radiologist? Does that help a radiologist communicate with a referring physician? Or do you feel that that's going to be a- >> Absolutely. We still have our old school physicians that we love who come to the reading room, who come to the department of radiology and go over studies together. But it's dwindling, it's becoming fewer and fewer as certain individuals retire. And it's just different. But the more direct interaction we can have with referring physicians, the better information they can give us. And the more we're interacting directly, the better we are. And so I get it, they're busy, they don't want to, they may not be at the hospital. They're seeing patients at an outpatient clinic and a radiologist isn't even there, that's where that technology piece. This is how we live. We're an instantaneous society. We live through our phone and so great it's like a FaceTime capability. If you want to maintain those personal relationships, we're learning we can't rely on the orthopedist or whomever, whatever referring physician to stop by our reading room, our department. We need to make ourselves available to them and make it convenient. >> That market that you working in Cincinnati, we have a luxury of having quite a few customers with our iConnect solutions. There's been some talk between the multiple parties, of potentially being able to look across the other sites and using that common tool, but being able to query the other archives. Is that something that you'd in favor of supporting and think would add value so that the clinicians can see the longitudinal record? >> Yes And we already have that ability of we can view care everywhere in our EMR. So we don't have the images right away, but we can see other reports. Again, it's not convenient. It's not a click away, but it's two, three, four clicks away. But if I see, if it's one of my search patterns of I just worked the overnight shift last week and then you get something through the ER and there's no comparisons, and it's an abnormal chest CT. Well, I look in Care Everywhere. Oh, they had a chest CT at a different place in the city a year ago, and I can see the report. And so then at that time I can request, and it can take an hour or so, but look back and the images will be accessible to me. But so how do we improve on that? Is to make the images, that I don't have to wait an hour for the images. If we have image sharing among your organizations that can be much quicker, would be a big win. >> As you read in your new environment, do you swivel your chair and still read out of any other specialty systems, for any types of studies today? >> No, and that was a huge win. We used to have a separate viewing system for mammography and we were caught like there were dedicated viewing stations. And so even though we're a system, the radiologist working at this hospital, had to read the mammograms taken at that hospital. And one at the other hospital could only read the ones taken at that hospital. And you couldn't share the workload if it was heavy at one site and light at the other. Well, now it's all viewed through the radiology viewer if you merge PACS, in not just general radiology, but impressed. It has been so much better world that the workflow is so much better, that we can share the work list and be much more efficient. >> Do you feel that in your, your new world, that you're able to have less cherry picking between the group, I guess? Do you feel like there's less infighting or that the exams are being split up evenly through the work list? Or are you guys using some sort of assignment? >> No. And I'm curious with our next version of PACS, the next version of merge packs of 008. I forget which particular >> John: 008. >> It's 008, yeah. I know there's the feature of a smart work list to distribute the exams. Currently, we just have one. It's better than what we have before. It's one large list. We've subdivided, teased out some things that not all of the radiologist read of like MSK and cardiac and it makes it more convenient. But currently it is the radiologist choose what study they're going to open next. To me how I personally attack the list is I don't look at the list. Some radiologists can spend more time choosing what they're going to read next than they do reading. (chuckles) And so if you don't even look, and so the feature I love is just I don't want to take my eyes off my main viewer. And I don't want to swivel my chair. I don't want to turn my head to look at the list, I want everything right in front of me. And so currently the way you can use it is I never look at the list. I just use the keyboard shortcuts of, okay, well I'm done with that study. I mark it, there's one button I click on my mouse that marks it dictated, closes it and brings up the next study on the list. >> Hey guys, I got to jump in. We're running up against the clock, but John if you've got any final thoughts or Dr. Huelsman, please. >> Sure. Dr. Huelsman, I guess any homework for me? What are the top two or three things I can help you with in 2021 to be successful? >> Keep us informed of what you're working on, of what's available now. What's coming next, and how soon is it available? And you let us see those things? And we'll give you a feedback of hey, this is great. And we'll try to identify things, if you haven't thought of them, hey, this would be very helpful. >> Gents, great conversation. Gosh we could go on for another 45 minutes. And John you really have a great knowledge of the industry. And Dr. Huelsman, thanks so much for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome >> And thanks for spending some time with us. You're watching "Client Conversations" with IBM Watson Health.

>>Welcome to this IBM Watson health client conversation here. We're probing the dynamics of the relationship between IBM and its clients. And we're looking back, we're going to explore the present. We're going to discuss the future state of healthcare. My name is Dave Volante from the Cuban with me are Robert Stell horn. Who's associate director, H E O R at sukha, otherwise known as pharmaceuticals, America and Rena Felton. Who's with of course, IBM Watson health. Welcome folks. Great to have you. Hi, so like strong relationships, as we know, they're the foundation of any partnership. And of course over the past year, we've had to rely on both personal and professional relationships to get us through some of the most challenging times, if not the most challenging times of our lives. So let me start with you, Robert, how has the partnership with IBM helped you in 2020? >>I think it was just a continuation of the excellent relationship we have with Rena and IBM. Um, starting in March, we had really a shift to an all remote, uh, workplace environment. And I think that constant communication with Rina and IBM helped that situation because she kept us up to date with, uh, additional products and offerings. And basically we came up with some additional solutions towards the end of the year. So we're gonna watch >>Pick it up from here. Let's go, let's go a little bit deeper and maybe you can talk about some of the things that you've done with Robert and his team and, and maybe some of the accomplishments that you're most proud of in 2020. >>No, absolutely. And I have to kind of echo what you first said about the foundation and our partnerships being the foundation, um, of our past present and future. So I do want to take the opportunity to thank Rob again for joining us today. It is, um, I know, you know, with his kids home and remote learning, um, it's a lot, uh, to, to ask in addition to, you know, your day to day work. So, so thank you, Rob. Um, I guess the question that I have for you is what would be the greatest accomplishment, um, that Watseka and IBM Watson had in 2020? >>I would say it was the addition of the linked claims EMR data, the LDCD product that we were able to license in-house, uh, thanks to your attention and to show the advantages and the strengths of that data. We are able to license that in to our, uh, set up assets we have internally. And what that's gonna allow us to do is really find out more information about the patients. Uh, we're existing users of the Mark IBM, uh, market scan data. Um, this is going to allow us to tie into those same patients and find out more about them. Um, in particular, uh, a lot of our products are in the mental health space and a lot about standing questions we have are why are the patients getting different products? And with the notes are available in that link data. We're going to now be able to tap into more information about what is happening with the patient. >>Okay. Can I ask a question on that? Um, if you guys don't mind, I mean, you know, when you, when you hear about, you know, uh, EMR, uh, in the early days, it was a lot about meaningful use and getting paid. It sounds like you guys are taking it much deeper and as a, as a, you know, as an individual, right, you're, you're really happy to hear that this information is now going to be used to really improve, uh, healthcare is, do I have that right? Is that, you know, kind of the nature of where you guys are headed? >>Well, I think ultimately it's the, the, the, the main goal is to help the patients and provide the products that can really, um, help them in their daily lives. So, um, really with this data, now, we're going to be able to tap into more of the why, um, exist in claims data. We cannot really get that information, why VC information, about what diagnoses they incurred during their treatment history. And we also can see, uh, different prescriptions that are given to them, but now we're going to be able to tie that together and get more understanding to really see more focused treatment pattern for them. >>So, Reno, w w you sit down with Rob, do you have like a, sort of a planning session for 2021? Why don't you sort of bring us up to, uh, to what your thinking is there and how you guys are working together this year? >>Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, actually, before we get to that, I wanted to kind of add onto what Rob was saying as well. It's interesting given, you know, the pandemic in 2020 and what the LCD data is going to do, um, to really be able to look back. And as Rob mentioned, looking specifically at mental health, the ability to look back and start looking at the patients and what it's really done to our community and what it's really done to our country, um, and looking at patients, you know, looking back at, at sort of their, their patient journey and where we are today. Um, but Rob and I talk all the time, we talk all the time, we probably talk three or four times a day sometimes. So I would say, um, we, we text, uh, we do talk and have a lot of our strategic, um, sessions, uh, our outlook for 2021 and what the data strategy is for Otsuka. Um, in addition, additional data assets to acquire from IBM, as well as how can we sort of leverage brander IBM, um, assets like our red hat, our OpenShift, our cloud-based solutions. So, you know, Rob and I are constantly talking and we are, um, looking for new ways to bring in new solutions into Otsuka. Um, and you know, yeah, we, we, we talk a lot. What do you think, Rob? >>I think we have an excellent partnership. Uh, basically, um, I think their relationship there is excellent. Um, we have excellent communication and, you know, I find when there's situations where I may be a bind Reno's is able to help out instantly. Um, so it's, it's really a two way street and it's an excellent partnership. >>I wonder if I could double click on that. I mean, relative to maybe some of your, I mean, I'm sure you have lots of relationships with lots of different companies, but, but what makes it excellent specifically with regard to IBM? Is there, is there anything unique Rob, that stands out to you? >>It would be the follow-up, um, really, it's not just about, uh, delivering the data and say, okay, here you have your, your product work with it in basically the, the, the vendor disappears, it's the constant followup to make sure that it's being used in any way they can help and provide more information to really extract the full value out of it. >>So I'm gonna forget to ask you guys, maybe each of you, you know, both personally and professionally, I feel like, you know, 20, 20 never ended it just sort of blended in, uh, and, and, but some things have changed. We all talk about, geez, what's going to be permanent. How have you each been affected? Um, how has it helped you position for, for what's coming in in the years ahead, maybe Reena, you could start and then pick it up with, with Rob. >>Oh man. Um, you know, 2020 was definitely challenging and I think it was really challenging given the circumstances and in my position where I'm very much used to meeting with our customers and having lunch and really just kind of walking down the hallways and bumping into familiar faces and really seeing, you know, how we can provide value with our solutions. And so, you know, that was all stripped in 2020. Uh, so it's been, it's been quite challenging. I will say, working with Rob, working with some of my other customers, um, I've had, uh, I've had to learn the resilience and to be a little bit more relentless with phone calls and follow ups and, and being more agile in my communications with the customers and what their needs are, and be flexible with calendars because there's again, remote learning and, and, um, and the like, so I think, you know, positioned for 2021 really well. Um, I am excited to hopefully get back out there and start visiting our customers. But if not, I certainly learned a lot and just, um, the follow-up and again, the relentless phone calls and calling and checking up on our customers, even if it's just to say, hi, see how everyone's doing a mental check sometimes. So I think that's, that's become, um, you know, what 2020 was, and, and hopefully, you know, what, 2021 will be better and, uh, kind of continue on that, that relentless path. >>What do you think, Rob? Hi, how are you doing? >>I would echo a lot of Rina's thoughts and the fact of, yeah, definitely miss the in-person interaction. In fact, I will say that I remember the last time I was physically in the office that Scott, it was to meet with Rina. So I distinctively remember that they remember the date was March, I believe, March 9th. So it just shows how this year as has been sort of a blur, but at the same time, you remember certain milestones. And I think it's because of that relationship, um, we've developed with IBM that I can remember those distinctive milestones and events that took place. >>So Rob, I probably should have asked you upfront, maybe tell us a little bit about Alaska, uh, maybe, maybe give us the sort of quick soundbite on where you guys are mostly focused. Sure. >>Oh, it's guys, uh, a Japanese pharmaceutical company. The focus is in mental health and nephrology, really the two main business areas. Um, my role at guys to do the internal research and data analytics within the health economics and outcomes research group. Um, currently we are transitioned to a, uh, name, which is global value and real world evidence. Um, fact that transition is already happened. Um, so we're going to have more of a global presence going forward. Um, but my role is really to, uh, do the internal research across all the brands within the company. >>So, so Rena, I wonder this, thank you for that, Robert. I wonder if you could think, thinking about what you know about Scott and your relationship with Robin, your knowledge of, of the industry. Uh, there's so much that IBM can bring to the table. Rob was talking about data earlier, talking about EMR, you were talking about, you know, red hat and cloud and this big portfolio you have. So I wonder if you could sort of start a conversation for our audience just around how you guys see all those assets that you have and all the knowledge, all that data. How do you see the partnership evolving in the future to affect, uh, the industry and the, in the future of healthcare? >>Well, I would love to see, um, the entire, uh, uh, platform, um, shift to, to the IBM cloud, um, and certainly, you know, leverage the cloud pack and analytics that, that we have to offer, um, baby steps most definitely. Um, but I do think that there is, uh, the opportunity to really move, um, and transform the business into something a lot more than, than what it is. >>Rob has the pandemic effected sort of how you think about, um, you know, remote services and cloud services and the, like, were you already on the path headed there? Did accelerate things, have you, you know, have you not had time because things have been so busy or maybe you could comment? >>Yeah, I think it's really a combination. And so I think you hit on a, a fair point there, just the time, uh, aspect. Um, it's definitely been a challenge and your, um, I have two children and remote learning has definitely been a challenge from that perspective. So time has definitely been, uh, on the short side. Um, I do see that there are going to in the future be more and more users of the data. So I think that shift to a potential cloud environment is where things are headed. >>So we, I have a bunch more questions, but I want to step back for a second and see if there's anything that you'd like to ask Rob before I go onto my next section. Okay. So I wonder if you could think about, um, maybe both of you, the, the, when you think back on, on 2020 and all the, you know, what's transpired, what, what transitions did you guys have to make? Uh, maybe as a team together IBM and Alaska. Um, and, and, and what do you see as sort of permanent or semi-permanent is work from home? We're gonna going to continue at a higher rate, uh, are there new practice? I mean, I know just today I made an online appointment it's for a remote visit with my doctor, which never could have happened before the pandemic. Right. But are there things specific to your business and your relationship that you see as a transition that could be permanent or semi-permanent? >>Well, I, I think it's there, there's definitely a shift that's happened that will is here to stay, but I don't know if it's full, it's going to be a combination in the future. I think that in-person interactions, especially what Rena mentioned about having that face-to-face interaction is still going to be one things are in the right place and safe they're going to happen again. But I think the ability to show that work can happen in a virtual or a full remote workplace, that's going to just allow that to continue and really give the flex of people. The flexibility I know for myself, flexibility is key. Like I mentioned, with two small children, um, that, that, that becomes such a valuable addition to your work, your life and your work life in general, that I think that's here to stay. >>Okay. Um, so let me ask you this, uh, w one of the themes of this event is relentless re-invention. So what I'm hearing from you Rob, is that it kind of a hybrid model going forward, if you will, uh, maybe the option to work from home, but that face to face interaction, especially when you're creating things like you are in the pharmaceutical business and the deep R and D that collaborative aspect, you know, you, it's harder when you're, when, when, when you're remote. Um, but maybe you could talk about, you know, some of those key areas that you're, you're going to be focused on in 2021 and, and really where you would look for IBM to help. >>I think in 2021, the team I'm part of it, part of is, is growing. So I think there's going to be additional demand for internal research, uh, uh, capabilities for analysis done within the company. So I think I'm going to be looking to Rena to, uh, see what new data offerings are available and all what new products are going to be available. But beyond that, um, I think it's the potential that, you know, there's so much, uh, projects, um, that are going to be coming to the table. We may need to outsource some of that projects and IBM could be potentially be a partner there to do some of the analysis on to help out there. >>Anything you'd add. >>Uh, no, I think that, that sounds good. >>How would you grade IBM and your relationship with IBM Rob? >>Well, I have to be nice to Rina cause she's been very nice to me. I would say an a, an a plus >>My kids, I got kids in college. Several, they get A's, I'm happy. Oh, that's good. You know, you should be proud. So, congratulations. Um, anything else Reno, you give you, I'll give you a last word here before we wrap, >>You know, 2020 was, was a challenging. And, you know, we talked a little bit about, you know, what time in 2020, you know, Rob and I have always had a really good relationship. I think 2020, we got closer, um, with just both professionally and really diving in to key business challenges that they have, and really working with him to understand what the customer needs are and how we can help, not only from, you know, an HR perspective, but also how can we help Otsuka, um, as a company in, in totality. So, you know, we've been able to do that, but personally, I would say that I really appreciated the relationship. I mean, we can go from talking about work to talking about children, to talking about family, um, all in the same five minute conversation or 10 minute conversation, sometimes our conversation. So, you know, thank you, Rob 2020 was definitely super challenging. >>I know for you on so many levels. Um, but I have to say you've been really great at just showing up every time picked up the phone, asked questions. If I needed something I can call you, I knew you were going to pick up, I had an offering and be like, do you have 10 minutes? Can I share this with you? And you would pick up the phone, no problem, and entertain a call or set up a call with all your internal colleagues. And I, I appreciate that so much. And, you know, I appreciate our relationship. I appreciate the business and I, I do hope that we can continue on in 2021, we will continue on in 2021. Uh, but, um, but yeah, I thank you so much. >>Rain has been extremely helpful. I don't want to thank you for all the help. Um, just to add to that one point there, you know, we have, uh, also another product, which I forgot to mention that we licensed in from IBM, it's the treatment pathways, um, tool, which is an online tool. Um, and we have users throughout the globe. So there's been times where I've needed a new user added very quickly for someone in the home office in Japan. And Rena has been extremely helpful in getting things done quickly and very proactively. >>Well, guys, it's really clear that the depth of your relationship I'm interested that you actually got closer in 2020. Uh, the fact that you communicate, you know, several times a day is I think Testament to that relationship. Uh, I'm really pleased to hear what you're doing and the potential with the EMR data for patient outcomes. Uh, as I say in the early days, I used to hear all about how well you have to do that to get paid. And it's really great to see a partnership that's, that's really focused on, on, on patient health and, and changing our lives. So, and mental health is such an important area that for so many years was so misunderstood and the, and the data that we now have, and of course, IBM's heritage and data is key. Uh, the relationship and the follow-up and also the flexibility is, is something I think we all learned in 2020, we have to, we've kind of redefined, you know, resilience in our organizations and, uh, glad to see you guys are growing. Congratulations on the relationship. And thanks so much for spending some time with me. >>Thank you. Thank you, Dave. Thank you, Raina >>For watching this client conversation with IBM Watson health.

>> Narrator: Live from Miami, Florida. It's theCUBE. Covering IBM's data and AI forum. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to the port of Miami everybody. This is theCube, the leader in live tech coverage. We're here covering the IBM AI and data forum. Of course, the centerpiece of IBM's AI platform is Watson. Beth Smith is here, she's the GM of IBM Watson. Beth, good to see you again. >> You too. Always good to be with theCUBE. >> So, awesome. Love it. So give us the update on Watson. You know, it's beyond Jeopardy. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Oh, wow. >> That was a long time ago now. (laughs) >> Right, but that's what a lot of people think of, when they think of Watson. What, how should we think about Watson today? >> So first of all, focus Watson on being ready for business. And then, a lot of people ask me, "So what is it?" And I often describe it as a set of tools, to help you do your own AI and ML. A set of applications that are AI applications. Where we have prebuilt it for you, around a use case. And there is examples where it gets embedded in a different application or system that may have existed already. In all of those cases, Watson is here, tuned to business enterprise, how to help people operational-wise, AI. So they can get the full benefit, because at the end of the day it's about those business outcomes. >> Okay, so the tools are for the super geeks, (Beth laughs) who actually want to go in and build the real AI. >> (laughs) That's right, that's right. >> The APPS are, okay. It's prebuilt, right? Go ahead and apply it. >> That's right. >> And the embedded is, we don't even know we're using it, right? >> That's right, or you may. Like, QRadar with Watson has an example of using Watson inside of it. Or, OpenPages with Watson. So sometimes you know you're using it. Sometimes you don't. >> So, how's the mix? I mean, in terms of the adoption of Watson? Are there enough like, super techies out there, who are absorbing this stuff? Or is it mostly packaged APPS? Is it a mix? >> So it is a mix, but we know that data science skills are limited. I mean, they're coveted, right? And so those are the geeks, as you say, that are using the tool chain as a part of it. And we see that in a lot of customers and a lot of industries around the world. And then from a packaged APP standpoint, the biggest use case of adoption is really around customer care, customer service, customer engagement. That kind of thing. And we see that as well. All around the world, all different industries. Lots of great adoption. Watson Assistant is our flagship in that. >> So, in terms of, if you think about these digital initiatives, we talked about digital transformation, >> Yup. >> Last few years, we kind of started in 2016 in earnest, it's real when you talk to customers. And there was a ton of experimentation going on. It was almost like spaghetti. Throw against the wall and see what sticks. Are you seeing people starting to place their bets on AI, Narrowing their scope, and really driving you know, specific business value now? >> Beth: Yeah. >> Or is it still kind of all over the place? >> Well, there's a lot of studies that says about 51% or so still stuck in experimentation. But I would tell you in most of those cases even, they have a nice pilot that's in production, that's doing a part of the business. So, 'cause people understand while they may be interested in the sexiness of the technology, they really want to be able to get the business outcomes. So yes, I would tell 'ya that things have kind of been guided, focused towards the use cases and patterns that are the most common. You know, and we see that. Like I mentioned, customer care. We see it in, how do you help knowledge workers? So you think of all those business documents, and papers and everything that exists. How do you assist those knowledge workers? Whether or not it's an attorney or an engineer, or a mortgage loan advisor. So you see that kind of use case, and then you see customers that are building their own. Focused in on, you know, how do they optimize or automate, or predict something in a particular line of business? >> So you mentioned Watson Assistant. So tell us more about Watson Assistant, and how has that affected adoption? >> So Watson Assistant as I said, it is our flagship around customer care. And just to give you a little bit of a data point, Watson Assistant now, through our public cloud, SaaS version, converses with 82 million end users a month. So it's great adoption. And this is, this is enabling customers. Customers of our customers, to be able to get self-service help in what they're doing. And Watson Assistant, you know, a lot of people want to talk about it being a chat bot. And you can do simple chat bots with it. But it's to sophisticated assistance as well. 'Cause it shows up to do work. It's there to do a task. It's to help you deal with your bank account, or whatever it is you're trying to do, and whatever company you're interacting with. >> So chat bots is kind of a, (laughs) bit of a pejorative. But you're talking about digital systems, it's like a super chat bot, right? >> Beth: Yeah. I saw a stat the other day that there's going to be, by I don't know, 2025, whatever. There's going to be more money spent on chat bot development, or digital assistance, than there is on mobile development. And I don't know if that's true or not, >> Beth: Mhm, wow. But it's kind of an interesting thing. So what are you seeing there? I mean, again I think chat bots, people think, oh, I got to talk into a bot. But a lot of times you don't know you're, >> Beth: That's right. >> so they're getting, they're getting better. I liken it to fraud detection. You know, 10 years ago fraud detection was like, six months later you'll, >> Right. >> you'll get a call. >> Exactly. >> And so chat bots are just going to get better and better and better, and now there's this super category that maybe we can define here. >> That's right. >> What is that all about? >> That's right. And actually I would tell you, they kind of, they can become the brain behind something that's happening. So just earlier today I was, I was with a customer and talking about their email CRM system, and Watson Assistant is behind that. So chat bots aren't just about what you may see in a little window. They're really about understanding user intent, guiding the user through what they're trying to either find out or do, and taking the action as a part of it. And that's why we talk about it being more than chat bots. 'Cause it's more than a FAQ interchange. >> Yes, okay. So it's software, >> Beth: Yes. >> that actually does, performs tasks. >> Beth: Yes. >> Probably could call other software, >> Beth: Absolutely. >> to actually take action. >> That's right. >> I mean, I see. We think of this as systems of agency, actually. Making, sort of, >> That's right. >> decisions and then I guess, the third piece of that is, having some kind of human interaction, where appropriate, right? >> That's right. >> What do you see in terms of, you know, infusing humans into the equation? >> So, well a couple of things. So one of the things that Watson Assistant will do, is if it realizes that it's not the expert on whatever it is, then it will pass over to an expert. And think of that expert as a human agent. And while it's doing that, so you may be in the queue, because that human person is tied up, you can continue to do other things with it, while you're waiting to actually talk to the person. So that's a way that the human is in the loop. I would tell you there's also examples of how the agents are being assisted in the background. So they have the interaction directly with the user, but Watson Assistant is helping them, be able to get to more information quicker, and narrow in on what the topic is. >> So you guys talk about the AI ladder, >> Beth: Mhm. >> Sort of, Rob talked about that this morning. My first version of the AI ladder was building blocks. It was like data and AI analytics, ML, and then AI on top of that. >> Beth: Yup. >> I said AI. Data and IA. >> Beth: Yup. >> Information Architecture. Now you use verbs. Sort of, to describe it. >> Beth: Yup. Which is actually more powerful. Collect, organize, analyze and infuse. Now infuse is like the Holy Grail, right? 'Cause that's operationalizing and being able to scale AI. >> Beth: That's right. >> What can you tell us about how successful companies are infusing AI, and what is IBM doing to help them? >> So, I'm glad you picked up first of all, that these are verbs and it's about action. And action leads to outcome, which is, I think, critical. And I would also tell you yes, infuse is, you know, the Holy Grail of the whole thing. Because that's about injecting it into business processes, into workflows, into how things are done. So you can then see examples of how attorneys may be able to get through their legal prep process in just a few minutes, versus 10, 15 hours on certain things. You can see conversion rates of, from a sales standpoint, improve significantly. A number of different things. We've also got it as a part of supply chain optimization, understanding a little bit more about both inventory, but also where the goods are along the way. And particularly when you think about a very complicated thing, there could be a lot of different goods in various points of transit. >> You know, I was sort of joking. Not joking, but mentioning Jeopardy at first. 'Cause a lot of people associate Watson with Jeopardy. >> Beth: Right. >> I can't remember the first time I saw that. It had to be the mid part of the last decade. What was it? >> Beth: February of 2011. >> 2011, okay I thought I even saw demos before that. I'm actually sure I did. Like in, back in some lab in IBM. And of course, the potential like, blew your mind. >> Right. >> I suspect you guys didn't even know what you had at the time. You were like, "Okay, we're going to go change the world." And you know, when you drive up and down 101 in Silicone Valley, it's like, "Oh, Watson this, Watson that." You know, you get the consumer guys, doing facial recognition, ad serving. You know, serving up fake news, you know. All kinds of applications. But IBM started to do something different. You're trying to really change business. Did you have any clue as to what you had at the time? And then how much of a challenge you were taking on, and then bring us to where we are now, and what do you see as a potential for the next 10 years? >> So, of course we had a clue. So let me start there. (Dave laughs) But with that, I think the possibilities of it weren't completely understood. There's no question in my mind about that. And what the early days were, were understanding, okay, what is that business application? What's the pattern that's going to come about as a part of it? And I think we made tremendous progress on that along the way. I would tell you now, you mentioned operationalizing stuff, and you know, now it's about, how do we help companies have it more throughout their company? Through different lines of business, how does it tie to various things that are important to us? And so that brings in things like trust, explainablity, the ethics of what it's doing. Bias detection and mitigation. And I actually believe a lot of that, and the operationalizing it within the processes, is where we're going to head, going forward. Of course there'll continue to be advancements on the features and the capabilities, but it's going to be about that. >> Alright, I'm going to ask you the it's depends question. (Beth laughs) So I know that's your answer, but at the macro, can machines make better diagnosis than doctors today, and if not, when will they be able to, in your view? >> So I would actually tell you that today they cannot, but what they can do is help the doctor make a better diagnosis than she would have done by herself. And because it comes back to this point of, you know, how the machine can process so much information, and help the expert, in this case the doctor's the expert, it could be an attorney, it could be an engineer, whatever. Help that expert be able to augment the knowledge that he or she has as a part of it. So, and that's where I think it is. And I think that's where it will be for my lifetime. >> So, there's no question in your mind that machines today, AI today, is helping make better diagnosis, it's just within augmented or attended type of approach. >> Absolutely. >> And I want to talk about Watson Anywhere. >> Beth: Okay, great. >> So we saw some discussion in the key notes and some demos. My understanding is, you could bring Watson Anywhere, to the data. >> That's right. >> You don't have to move the data around. Why is that important? Give us the update on Watson Anywhere. >> So first of all, this is the biggest requirement I had since I joined the Watson team, three and a half years ago. Was please can I have Watson on-prem, can I have Watson in my company data center, etcetera. And you know, we needed to instead, really focus in on what these patterns and use cases were, and we needed some help in the platform. And so thanks to Cloud Pak for data, and the underlying Red Hat OpenShift and container platform, we now are enabled to truly take Watson anywhere. So you can have it on premise, you can have it on the other public clouds, and this is important, because like you said, it's important because of where your data is. But it's also important because the workloads of today and tomorrow are very complex. And what's on cloud today, may be on premise tomorrow, may be in a different cloud. And as that moves around, you also want to protect the investment of what you're doing, as you have Watson customize for what your business needs are. >> Do you think you timed it right? I mean, you kind of did. All this talk about multicloud now. You really didn't hear much about it four or five years ago. For awhile I thought you were trying to juice your cloud business. Saying, "You want, if you want Watson, you got to go to the IBM cloud." Was there some of that, or was it really just, "Hey, now the timing's right." Where clients are demanding it, and hybrid and multicloud and on-prem situations? >> Well look, we know that cloud and AI go hand in hand. So there was a lot of positive with that. But it really was this technology point, because had I taken it anywhere three and a half years ago, what would've happened is, every deployment would've been a unique environment, a unique stack. We needed to get to a point that was a modern day, you know, infrastructure, if you will. And that's what we get now, with a container based platform. >> So you're able to scale it, such that every instance isn't a snowflake, >> That's right. >> that requires customization. >> That's right. So then I can invest in the enhancements to the actual capabilities it is there to do, not supporting multiple platform instantiations, under the covers. >> Well, okay. So you guys are making that transparent to the customer. How much of an engineering challenge is that? Can you share that with us? You got to run on this cloud, on that cloud, or on forever? >> Well, now because of Cloud Pak for data, and then what we have with OpenShift and Kubernetes and containers, it becomes, well, you know, there's still some technical work, my engineering team would tell you it was a lie. But it's simple now, it's straightforward. It's a lot of portability and flexibility. In the past, it would've been every combination of whatever people were trying to do, and we would not have had the benefit of what that now gives you. >> And what's the technical enable there? Is it sort of open API's? Architecture that allows for the interconnectivity? >> So, but inside of Watson? Or the overall platform? >> The overall platform. >> So I would say, it's been, at it's, at it's core it's what containers bring. >> Okay, really. So it's that, it's that. It's the marriage of your tech, >> Yeah. >> with the container wave. >> That's right. That's right. Which is why the timing was critical now, right? So you go back, yes they existed, but it really hadn't matured to a point of broad adoption. And that's where we are now. >> Yeah, the adoption of containers, Kubernetes, you know, micro services. >> Right, exactly. Now it's on a very steep curve. >> Exactly. >> Alright, give your last word on, big take away, from this event. What do you hearing, you know, what are you, some of the things you're most excited about? >> So first of all, that we have all of these clients and partners here, and all the buzz that you see. And that we've gotten. And then the other thing that I would tell you is, the great client examples. And what they're bragging on, because they are getting business outcomes. And they're getting better outcomes than they thought they would achieve. >> IBM knows how to throw an event. (Beth laughs) Beth, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. >> Thank you, good to >> Appreciate it. >> see you again. >> Alright, great to see you. Keep it right there everybody, we'll be back. This is theCUBE live, from the IBM Data Forum in Miami, we'll be right back. (upbeat instrumental music)

(upbeat pop music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CubeConversation. >> Hello, everyone welcome to this CUBE Conversation here in Palo Alto, California, I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE. We are here forth Inhi Cho Suh General Manager of IBM Watson, Customer Engagement, Former Cube alumni, I think she's been on dozens of times. Great to see you again. Welcome to our Palo Alto Studios. >> Yeah, great being here, John. >> So, we haven't chatted in awhile. IBM thing just happened, a little bit of a rainy event, here in February. Interesting change over since we last talked, but first give an update on what you're up to these days, what group are you leading, what's new? >> Okay, well first of all, I'm here based in California, which I'm excited about, and I lead our Watson West office, which is our Watson headquarters, here on the west coast, in downtown San Francisco, and we hosted our Think Conference, and at Think I lead with, in IBM, what we call our Watson Customer Engagement Business Unit, which is really the business applications, of how we apply Watson and other disruptive tech to a line of business audiences, both SAS and on premise software, so really excited about the areas of applying AI and machine learning as well as Blockchain to things like supply chain, and logistics, to order management, to next generation of retail. A lot of new, exciting areas. >> Yeah, we've had many conversations over the years from big data to as your career spanned across IBM, and you have a much more horizontal view of things, now. You're horizontally scalable, as we say in the cloud world. What's your observation of the trends these days? Because there's a lot waves. Actually, the waves that you guys announced, was the IBM, Watson NE ware and the cloud private ware. Marvin and I had an amazing conversation that video went viral. This is now getting a big tailwind for IBM. What's your thoughts in general about the overall ecosystem, because you're here in Silicon Valley, you've seen the big waves, you've got another big data world, cloud is here, multi cloud. What's your thoughts on the big mega-trends? >> Yeah, that's a good question. I think the first chapter of cloud, everyone ran to public cloud. When you look at it through the lens of enterprise, though, the hot topic right now in the second chapter is really about not just public cloud, but multi-cloud, hybrid cloud. Meaning, whether it's a private, public, it's about thinking about the applications and the nature of the applications and regardless of where the data sits, what are the implications of actually getting work done? Through, kind of, new container services, new ways of microservices in the development, of how APIs are integrated, and so, the hot topic right now is definitely hybrid cloud, multi cloud. And the work we've done to certify, what we call, IBM cloud private really enables us to not just take any business application to any cloud in our cloud, as well, but actually to enable Watson and Watson based applications also across multi cloud environments. >> So, chapter two, Jenny mentioned that in her key notes, I want to dig into that because we've been talking a lot about multi cloud architecture, and one of the big debates has been, in the industry, oh, don't pick a soul cloud. I've been writing a bunch of content about that at this DOD jedi deal with Amazon and Oracle, fighting for it out there, but that's also happening at the enterprise, but the reality is, everyone has multiple clouds. If you've got a sales force or if you've got this and that and the other thing, you probably have multiple clouds, so it's not so much soul cloud vs. as it is, workloads having a cloud for the right job and that seems to be validated at IBM Think, in talking to the top technical people and in the industry. They all say, pick the right cloud for the job. And we've heard that before in Big Data. Pick the right tool for the job. So, given that, workloads seem to be driving the demand for cloud. Since you're on the app side, how are you seeing that? Because the world's flipped. It used to be infrastructure and software enable the app's capabilities. Now the workloads have infrastructure as code, made with cloud, they're driving the requirements. This is a change over. >> It is a big change and part of, I would say, when people first ran to the cloud, and a lot of the public cloud services were digital SaaS services, where people were wanting to stitch multiple applications across clouds, and that became a challenge, so in this next iteration, that I'm seeing is, really, a couple things. One is, data gravity. So, where does the data actually reside, for the workload that's actually happening? Whether it's the transactions, whether it's customer information, whether it's product information, that's one piece. The second piece is a lot more analytics, right? And the spectrum of analytics running from traditional warehouse capabilities, to more, let's say, larger scale big data projects to full blown advanced algorithms and AI applications, is, people are saying, look, not only do I want to stitch these applications across multiple clouds; I also want to make sure I can actually tap into the data to apply new types of analytics and derive new services and new values out of relationships, understanding of how products are consumed, and so forth. So, for us, when we think about it is, we want to be able to enable that fluid understanding of data across the clouds, as well as protect and be thoughtful about the data privacy rights around it, compliance around GDPR, as well as how we think about the security aspects as well, for the enterprise. >> That is a great point. I think I want to drill down on the data piece, your background on data obviously is going to be key in your job now obviously, it's pretty obvious with Watson, but David Floyd, a wiki bonds research analyst, just posted a taxonomy of hybrid cloud research report that laid out the different kinds of cloud you could have. There's edge clouds, there's all kinds of things from public to edge, so when you look at that, you're thinking, okay, the data plain is the critical nature of the cloud. Now, depending on which cloud architecture for the use case, the workload, whatever, the data plain seems to be this magical opportunity. AI is going to have a big part of that. Can you just talk about how you guys see that evolving? Because, obviously, AI is a killer part of your strategy. This data piece is inter-operating across the clouds. >> Yes. >> Data management governs you're smiling, cause there's a killer answer coming. >> Totally. This is such a great set up. Actually, Ginni even said it in her keynote at Think, which was, you can't have an AI strategy without an information architecture strategy, which is an IA strategy, and information architecture is all about what you said: it's data preparation; understanding the foundation of it, making sure you've got the right governance structure, the integration of it, and then actually how you apply the more advanced analytics on top. So, information architecture and thinking about the data aspects in all kinds of data. Majority of the data actually sits behind, what I would say, the traditional public firewall. So, it sits behind the firewalls of our enterprise clients, like 80 plus percent of it, and then, many of the clients, we actually recently did a study, with about 5,000 senior executives, across many, many thousands of organizations, and 85% of them want to apply AI to improve their customer service, to improve the way they engage their clients and their products and services, so this is a huge opportunity right now for pretty much every organization to think through; kind of their data strategy. Their information architecture strategy, as part of their overall AI strategy. >> So, a question a got on twitter comes up a lot, and, also on my notes here, I wanted to ask you is, how can companies increase transparency trust and mitigate bias in AI? Because this comes up a lot and that's the questions that come in from the community is, Hey, I got my site, my apps running in Germany. I've got users over there, I'm global. I have to manage compliance, I got all this governess now, I'm over my shoulders, kind of a pain in the butt, but also I don't want to have the software be skewed on bias and other things, and then, I also get this whole Facebook dynamic going on, where it's like, I don't trust people holding my data. This is a big, huge issue. >> It is enormous. >> You guys are in the middle of it, what's your thoughts, what's the update, what's the dynamic and what's the solution? >> So, this is a big topic. I think we could do a whole episode just on this topic alone. So, trust and developing trust and transparency in AI should be a fundamental requirement across many, many different types of institutions. So, first of all, the responsibility doesn't sit only with the technology vendors; it's a shared responsibility across government institutions, the consumers, as well as the business leaders, in terms of how they're thinking about it. The more important piece, though, is when you think about the population that's available, that really understands AI, and they're actually coding and developing on it, is that we have to think about the diverse population that's participating in the governance of it, because you don't want just one tribe or one group that's coding and developing the algorithms, or deciding the decision models. >> Like the nerds or the geeks; they're a social aspect, society aspect as well, right? Social science. >> Exactly. I actually just did a recent conversational series with Northwestern Kellogg's business school, around the importance of developing trust and transparency, not only in the algorithms themselves, but the methodology of how you think about culture and value and ethics come into play through different lens, depending on the country you live in, as you kind of referenced, depending on your different values and religious backgrounds. It may because of different institutional and/or policy positions, depending on the nature, and so there has to be a general awareness of this that's thoughtful. Now, why I'm so excited about the work we're doing at IBM is we've actually launched a couple new initiatives. One is, what we call, AI OpenScale, which is really a platform and an opportunity to have the ability to begin to apply AI, see how AI operations and models function in production. We have methodologies in terms of engaging understanding fairness, so there's a 360 degree fairness kit, which is actually available in the open source world, there's a set of tools to understand and train people on recognizing bias, so even just definitions of, what do you mean by bias? It could be things like, group think, it could be, you're just self selecting on certain data sets to reinforce your hypotheses, it could be unconscious levels and it's not just traditionally socially oriented, types of bias. >> It could be data bias, too. It could be data bias, right? >> Totally. Machine generated biases in IOT world, also. >> So, contextual and behavioral biases kind of kick into play here. >> Yeah, but it starts with transparency trust. It also starts with thoughtful governance, it starts with understanding in your position on policy around data privacy, and those things are things that should be educational conversations across the entire industry. >> How far along are we on the progress bar there? I mean, it seems like it's early and we seem to be talking for awhile, but it seems even more early than most people think. Still a lot more work. Your thoughts on where the progress bar is on this whole mash up of tech and social issues around bias and data? Where are we? >> We're really at the early stages, and part of the reason we're at the early stages is I think people have, so far, really applied AI in very simple task oriented applications. The more, what we call, broad AI, meaning multi task work flow applications are starting, and we're also starting seeing in the enterprise. Now, in the enterprise world, you can still have bias, so, for example, when you talked about data bias, one of the simple examples I use is, think about loan approvals. If one of the criteria may be based on gender, you may have a sensitivity around the lack of women owned business leaders, and that could be a scoring algorithm that says, hey, maybe it's a higher risk when in fact, it's not necessarily a higher risk, it's just that the sampling is off, right. So, that would be a detection to say, hey maybe you have sensitivity around that data set, because you actually have an insufficient amount of data. So, part of data detection and understanding biases; where you have sampling of data that's incorrect, where your segmentation could be rethought, where it may just require an additional supervision or like decision making criteria as part of your governance process. >> This is actually a great area for young people to get involved, whether at their universities or curriculum, this kind of seems to be, whether it's political science and/or data science kind of coming together, you kind of have a mash. What's your advice to people watching that might be either in high school, college, or rethinking their career, because this seems to be hot area. >> It is a hot area. I would recommend it for every student at every age, quite frankly and we're at such an early stage that it's not too late to join and you're not too young nor are you too old to actually get in the industry, so that's point one. This is a great time for everyone to get involved. The second piece is, I would just start with online courses that are available, as well as participate in communities and companies like IBM, where we actually make available on a number of our web based applications, that you can actually do some online training and courses to understand the services that we have, to begin to understand the taxonomy and the language, so a very simple set, would be like, learn the language of AI first, and then, as you're learning coding, if you're more technically inclined, there's just a myriad of classes available. >> Final question, before I move on to the topic around inclusion and diversity, machine learning is impacting all verticals. I was just in an interview, talking with Don En-ju-bin-ski, she's got a company where it's neuroscience and machine learning coming together. Machine learning's being impacted all over. We mentioned basic data bias, and machine learning can help there. Machine learning meets blank every vertical, every market, is being impacted machine learning, which will trigger some of the things you're seeing on the app side. Your thoughts, looking at where you've come from in your career at IBM to now, just the evolution of what machine learning has enabled, your thoughts on the impact of machine learning. >> Oh, it's exciting and I'll give you a real simple example, so one of the great things my own team actually did was apply machine learning to, everyone loves the holiday shopping period, right? Between Thanksgiving to New Years, so we actually develop, what we call, Watson Order Optimizer and one of my favorite brands is REI, so the recreational equipment incorporated company, they actually applied our Watson Order Optimizer to optimize in real time. The best place, let's say you want to order a kayak or a T-shirt or a hiking boot, but the best way to create the algorithms to ship from different stores, and shipping from stores, for most retailers, is a high cost variable, because you don't know what the inventory positions are, you don't necessarily know the movement of traffic into that store, you may not even know what the price promotions are, so what was exciting about putting machine learning algorithms to this was, we could actually curate things like shipping and tax information, inventory positions of products in stores, pricing, a movement of goods as part of that calculation. So, this is like a set of business rules that are automatically developed, using Watson, in a way that would be almost impossible for any human to actually come up with all of the possible business roles, right? Because this is such a complex situation, and then you're trying to do it at the peak time, which is, like Black Friday, Cyber Monday Weekend, so we were able to actually apply Watson Machine Learning to create the business roles for when it should be shipped from a warehouse or a particular store. In order to meet the customer requirement, which is the fulfillment of that brand experienced, or the product experienced, so my view is, there are so many different places across the industry, that we could actually apply machine learning to, and my team is really excited about what we've been doing, especially in the next generation of supply chain. >> And it's also causing students to be really attracted to computer science, both men and women. My daughter, who is a senior at Berkeley, is interested in it, so you're starting to see the impact of machine learning is hitting all main stream, which is a good segue to my next question, we've been very passionate, I know it's one of your passions is inclusion and diversity or diversity and inclusion, there's always debates: D before I or I before D? Some say inclusion and diversity or diversity and inclusion. It's all the same thing, there's just a lot of effort going on to bring the tech industry up to par with the reality of the world, and so you have a study out. I've got a copy here. Talk about this study: Women in Leadership and the Priority Paradox. Talk about the study; what was behind it and what were some of the findings? >> Sure, and I'm excited that your daughter, that's a senior in college, is going to be another woman that's entering the workforce, and especially being in tech, so the priority paradox is that we actually looked at over 2,300 organizations, these are some of the top institutions around the world, that are curating and attracting the best talent and skills. Now, when you look at that population, we were surprised to find out that you would think by 2019-2018 that only 18% of those organizations actually had women in senior leadership positions, and what I categorize as senior leading positions, are in the see-swee, as vice presidents, maybe senior executives or senior managers; director level folks. So, that's one piece, which is, wow, given the size and the state where we are in the industry, only 18%: we could do better. Now, why do we believe that? The second piece is, you want the full population of the human capacity to think and creatively solve. Some of the world's biggest complex problems; you don't want a small population of the world trying to do this, so, the second piece of the paradox, which was the most surprising, is that 79% of these companies actually said that formalizing or prioritizing gender, fostering that kind of inclusive culture, was not a business priority, and that they had a harder time actually mapping that gap. Now, in the study, what we actually discovered though, was those companies, that did make it a priority, actually had first mover advantage, and making it a priority is quite simple. It's about understanding how to create that inclusive culture, to allow different perspectives and different experiences to be allowed in the co-creation and development. >> So, first mover advantage, in terms of what? >> Performance, actual business performance, so even though 80% of the organizations that we interviewed actually said that they've not made it a business priority, the 20% that did, we actually saw higher performance in their outcomes, in terms of business performance. >> So, this is actually a business benefit, too. I think your point is, the first mover advantage is saying, those companies that actually brought in the leadership to create that different perspective, had higher performance. >> Absolutely. >> We've talked about this before; one of the things I always say is that, tech is now mainstream, and it's 18% of the target audience of tech isn't the market, it's 50/50 or 51. Some say 51% women/men, so who's building the products for half the audience? So, again, this doesn't make any sense, so this is a good statistic. >> It is, and if you think about the students that are actually graduating out of graduate school, recently, there's actually more women graduating out of grad school than men. When you think about that population that's now entering the workforce, and what's actually happening through the pipeline, I think there's got to be thoughtful focus and programmatic improvements across the industry, around how to develop talent and make sure that different companies and organizations can move. Like you said, problem solve for creating new products that actually serve the world, not just serve certain populations, but also do it in a way that's thoughtful about, kind of, the makeup. >> And the mainstream and prep of tech obviously makes it more attractive, I mean, you're seeing a lot more women thinking about machines, like my daughter, the question is, how do they come in and not lose their footing, mentor-ship? So, what are the priorities that you see the industry needs to do? What are some of the imperatives to keep the pipeline and keep all the mentoring, obviously mentoring is hot, we see the networking built. >> Yeah, mentoring is huge. >> What's your thoughts on the best practices that you've been involved in? >> Some of the best practices we've actually done a number with an IBM, we've done a program called, Tech Re-Entry, so women that have decided to come back into the tech workforce, we actually have a 12 week internship program to do that. Another is a big initiative that we have around P-TECH, which is the next generation of workers aren't just going to have a formal college and or PHD masters type degrees. The next generation, which we're calling, is not necessarily a white collar, blue collar, what we're calling it is, new collar, meaning these are students that are able to combine their equivalent of a high school degree and early college education in one to be kind of, if you think about it, next generation of technical vocational schools, right? That quickly enter the workforce, are able to do jobs in terms of web development, in terms of cloud management, cloud services, it could be next generation of-- >> It's a huge skill gap opportunity, this is a big opportunity for people. >> It is, and we're seeing great adoption. We've seen it on a number of states across the US, this is an effort that we partner with, the states and the governors of each state, because public education has got to be done in a systematic way that you can actually sustain it for many, many years and this is something that we were excited about championing in the state of New York first. >> The ReEntry program and other things, I always tell myself, the technology is so new now you could level up a lot faster than, there's not that linear school kind of mentality, you don't need eight years to learn something. You could literally learn something pretty quickly these days because the gap between you and someone else is so short now, because it's all new skills. >> It's true, it's true. We talk about digital disruption through the lens of businesses, but there's a huge digital disruption through the lens of what you're talking about, which is our individual development and talent, and the ability to learn through so many different channels that's available now, and the focus around micro degrees, micro skills, micro certifications, there's so many ways for everyone to get involved, but I really do encourage everyone across every industry to have some knowledge and basis and understanding of tech, because tech will redefine how services and products are delivered across every category. >> And that's not male or female: that's just everyone. Again, back to technology for good, we can solve technology problems, You guys have been doing it at IBM, solve technology problems, but now the people problem is about getting people empowered, all gender, races, et cetera, the people getting the skills, getting employed, working for clouds, this is an opportunity. >> This is a huge opportunity. I think this is an exciting time. We feel like we're entering this next phase of, what I call, chapter two of cloud, this is chapter two of digital reinvention, of the enterprise, digital reinvention of the individual, actually, and it's an opportunity for every country, every population group to get involved, in so many new and creative ways, and we're at the early foundation stages in terms of both AI development, as well as new capabilities like Blockchain. So, it's an exciting time for everybody. >> Well, that's a whole nother topic. We'll have to bring you back, Inhi. Great to see you, in fact, welcome to Palo Alto. First time in our studio. Let's co-host something together, me and you. We'll do a series: John and Inhi. >> I would love that. That would be fun. I'm excited to be here. >> You can drop by our studio anytime now that you live in Palo Alto, we're neighbors. Inhi Cho Suh here, general manager IBM Watson, customer engagement, friend of theCUBE, here inside our studios, Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(cheery music) >> Hi I'm Peter Burris, and welcome to another CUBE Conversation from our studios in Palo Alto, California. Today we're going to be talking about some new advances in how data gets processed. Now it may not sound exciting, but when you hear about some of the performance capabilities, and how it liberates new classes of applications, this is important stuff, now to have that conversation we've got Weka.IO here with us, specifically Liran Zvibel is the CEO of Weka.IO, and joined by Andy Watson, who's the CTO of Weka.IO. Liran, Andy, welcome to the cube. >> Thanks. >> Thank you very much for having us. >> So Liran, you've been here before, Andy, you're a newbie, so Liran, let's start with you. Give us the Weka.IO update, what's going on with the company? >> So 18 has been a grand year for us, we've had great market adoption, so we've spent last year proving our technology, and this year we have accelerated our commercial successes, we've expanded to Europe, we've hired quite a lot of sales in the US, and we're seeing a lot of successes around machine learning, deep learning, and life sciences data processes. >> And you've hired a CTO. >> And we've hired the CTO, Andy Watson, which I am excited about. >> So Andy, what's your pedigree, what's your background? >> Well I've been around a while, got the scars on my back to show it, mostly in storage, dating back to even off-specs before NetApp, but probably best known for the years I spent at NetApp, was there from 95 through 2007, kind of the glory years, I was the second CTO at NetApp, as a matter of fact, and that was a pretty exciting time. We changed the way the world viewed shared storage, I think it's fair to say, at NetApp, and it feels the same here at Weka.IO, and that's one of the reasons I'm so excited to have joined this company, because it's the same kind of experience of having something that is so revolutionary that quite often, whether it's a customer, or an analyst like yourself, people are a little skeptical, they find it hard to believe that we can do the things that we do, and so it's gratifying when we have the data to back it up, and it's really a lot of fun to see how customers react when they actually have it in their environment, and it changes their workflow and their life experience. >> Well I will admit, I might be undermining my credibility here, but I will admit that back in the mid 90s I was a little bit skeptical about NetApp, but I'm considerably less skeptical about Weka.IO, just based on the conversations we've had, but let's turn to that, because there are classes of applications that are highly dependent on very large, small files, being able to be moved very very rapidly, like machine learning, so you mentioned machine learning, Liran, talk a little bit about some of the market success that you're having, some of those applications' successes. >> Right so machine learning actually works extremely well for us for two reasons. For one big reasons, machine learning is being performed by GPU servers, so a server with several GPU offload engines in them, and what we see with this kind of server, a single GPU server replaces ten or tens of CPU based servers, and what we see that you actually need, the IO performance to be ten or tens times what the CPU servers has been, so we came up with a way of providing significantly higher, so two orders of magnitude higher IO to a single client on the one hand, and on the other hand, we have sold the data performance from the metadata perspective, so we can have directories with billions of files, we can have the whole file system with trillions of files, and when we look at the autonomous driving problem, for examples, if you look at the high end car makers, they have eight cameras around the cars, these cameras take small resolution, because you don't need a very high resolution to recognize the line, or a cat, or a pedestrian, but they take them at 60 frames per second, so 30 minutes, you get about the 100k files, traditional filers could put in the directory, but if you'd like to have your cars running in the Bay Area, you'd like to have all the data from the Bay Area in the single directory, then you would need the billions of file directories for us, and what we have heard from some of our customers that have had great success with our platform is that not only they get hundreds of gigabytes of small file read performance per second, they tell us that they take their standard time to add pop from about two weeks before they switched to us down to four hours. >> Now let's explore that, because one of the key reasons there is the scalability of the number of files you can handle, so in other words, instead of having to run against a limit of the number of files that they can typically run through the system, saturate these GPUs based on some other storage or file technology, they now don't have to stop and set up the job again and run it over and over, they can run the whole job against the entire expansive set of files, and that's crucial to speeding up the delivery of the outcome, right? >> Definitely, so what they, these customers used to do before us, they would do a local caching, cause NFS was not fast enough for them, so they would copy the data locally, and then they would run them over on the local file system, because that has been the pinnacle of performance of recent year. We are the only storage currently, I think we'll actually be the first wave of storage solutions where a shared platform built for NVME is actually faster than a local file system, so we'd let them go through any file, they don't have to pick initially what files goes to what server, and also we are even faster than the traditional caching solutions. >> And imagine, having to collect the data and copy it to the local server, application server, and do that again and again and again for a whole server farm, right? So it's bad enough to even do it once, to do it many times, and then to do it over and over and over and over again, it's a huge amount of work. >> And a lot of time? >> And a lot of time, and cumulatively that burden, it's going to slow you down, so that makes a big big difference and secondly, as Liran was explaining, if you put 100,000 files in a directory of other file systems, that is stressful. You want to put more than 100,000 files in a directory of other file systems, that is a tragedy, and we routinely can handle millions of files in a directory, doesn't matter to us at all because just like we distribute the data, we also distribute the metadata, and that's completely counter to the way the other file systems are designed because they were all designed in an era where their focus was on the physical geometry of hard disks, and we have been designed for flash storage. >> And the metadata associated with the distribution of that data typically was in a one file, in one place, and that was the master serialization problem when you come right down to it. So we've got a lot of ML workloads, very large number of files, definitely improved performance because of the parallelism through your file system, in the as I said, the ML world. Let's generalize this. What does this mean overall, you've kind of touched upon it, but what does it mean overall for the way that customers are going to think about storage architectures in the future as they are combining ML and related types of workloads with more traditional types of things? What's the impact of this on storage? >> So if you look at how people architect their solutions around storage recently, you have four different kind of storage systems. If you need the utmost performance, you're going to DAS, Fusion IO had a run, perfecting DAS and then the whole industry realized it. >> Direct attached storage. >> Direct attached storage, right, and then the industry realized hey it makes so much sense, they create a standard out of it, created NVME, but then you're wasting a lot of capacity, and you cannot manage it, you cannot back it up, and then if you need it as some way to manage it, you would put your data over SAN, actually our previous company was XAV storage that IBM acquired, vast majority of our use cases are actually people buying block, and then they overlay a local file system over it because it gets you so much higher performance then if you must get, but you don't get, you cannot share the data. Now, if you put it on a filer, which is Neta, or Islon, or the other solutions, you can share the data but your performance is limited, and your scalability is limited as Andy just said, and if you had to scale through the roof- >> With a shared storage approach. >> With a shared storage approach you had to go and port your application to an object storage which is an enormous feat of engineering, and tons of these projects actually failed. We actually bring the new kind of storage, which is assured storage, as scalable as an object storage, but faster than direct attach storage, so looking at the other traditional storage systems of the last 20 or 30 years, we actually have all the advantages people would come to expect from the different categories, but we don't have any of the downsides. >> Now give us some numbers, or do you have any benchmarks that you can talk about that kind of show or verify or validate this kind of vision that you've got, that Weka's delivering on? >> Definitely, but the i500? >> Sure, sure, we recently actually published our IO500 performance results at the SE1800, SE18 event in Dallas, and there are two different metrics- >> So fast you can go back in time? >> Yes, exactly, there are two different metrics, one metric is like an aggregate total amount of performance, it's a much longer list. I think the one that's more interesting is the one where it's the 10-client version, which we like to focus on because we believe that the most important area for a customer to focus on is how much IO can you deliver to an individual application server? And so this part of the benchmark is most representative of that, and on that rating, we were able to come in second well, after you filter out the irrelevant results, which, that's a separate process. >> Typical of every benchmark. >> Yes exactly, of the relevant meaningful results, we came in second behind the world's largest and most expensive supercomputer at Oak Ridge, the SUMMIT system. So they have a 40 rack system, and we have a half, or maybe a little bit more than half, one rack system of industry standard hardware running our software. So compare that, the cost of our hardware footprint and so forth is much less than a million dollars. >> And what was the differential between the two? >> Five percent. >> Five percent? So okay, sound of jaw dropping. 40 rack system at Oak Ridge? Five percent more performance than you guys running on effectively a half rack of like a supermicro or something like that? >> Oh and it was the first time we ran the benchmark, we were just learning how to run it, so those guys are all experts, they had IBM in there at their elbow helping them with all their tuning and everything, this was literally the first time our engineers ran the benchmark. >> Is a large feature of that the fact that Oak Ridge had to get all that hardware to get the physical IO necessary to run serial jobs, and you guys can just do this parallel on a relatively standard IO subset, NVME subset? >> Because beyond that, you have to learn how to use all those resources, right? All the tuning, all the expertise, one of the things people say is you need a PhD to administer one of those systems, and they're not far off, because it's true that it takes a lot of expertise. Our systems are dirt simple. >> Well you got to move the parallelism somewhere, and either you create it yourself, like you do at Oak Ridge, or you do it using your guys' stuff, through a file system. >> Exactly, and what we are showing that we have tremendously higher IO density, and we actually, what we're showing, that instead of using a local file system, that where most of them were created in the 90s, in the serial way of thinking, of optimizing over hard drives, if now you say, hey, NVME devices, SSDs are beasts at running 4k IOs, if you solve the networking problem, if the network is not the bottleneck anymore, if you just run all your IOs as much parallelized workload over 4k IOs, you actually get much higher performance than what you could get, up until we came, the pinnacle of performance, which is a local file system over a local device. >> Well so NFS has an effective throughput limitation of somewhere around a gigabyte, so if you've got a bunch of GPUs that are each wanting four, five, 10 gigabytes of data coming in, you're not saturating them out of an effective one gigabyte throughput rate, so it's almost like you've got the New York City Waterworks coming in to some of these big file systems, and you got like your little core sink that's actually spitting the data out into the GPUs, have I got that right? >> Good analogy, if you are creating a data lake, and then you're going to sip at it with some tiny little straw, it doesn't matter how much data you have, you can't really leverage the value of all that data that you've accumulated, if you're feeding it into your compute farm, GPU or not, because if you're feeding it into that farm slowly, then you'll never get to it all, right? And meanwhile more data's coming in every day, at a faster rate. It's an impossible situation, so the only solution really is to increase the rate by which you access the data, and that's what we do. >> So I could see how you're making the IO bandwidth junkies at Oak Ridge, or would make them really happy, but the other thing that at least I find interesting about Weka.IO is as you just talked about is that, that you've come up with an approach that's specifically built for SSD, you've moved the parallelism into the file system, as opposed to having it be somewhere else, which is natural, because SSD is not built to persist data, it's built to deliver data, and that suggests as you said earlier, that we're looking at a new way of thinking about storage as a consequence of technologies like Weka, technologies like NVME. Now Andy, you came from NetApp, and I remember what NetApp did to the industry, when it started talking about the advantages of sharing storage. Are we looking at something similar happening here with SSD and NVME and Weka? >> Indeed, I think that's the whole point, it's one of the reasons I'm so excited about it. It's not only because we have this technology that opens up this opportunity, this potential being realized. I think the other thing is, there's a lot of features, there's a lot of meaningful software that needs to be written around this architectural capability, and the team that I joined, their background, coming from having created XIV before, and the almost amazing way they all think together and recognize the market, and the way they interact with customers allows the organization to address realistically customer requirements, so instead of just doing things that we want to do because it seems elegant, or because the technology sparkles in some interesting way, this company, and it remains me of NetApp in the early days, and it was a driver of NetApp's big success, this company is very customer-focused, very customer driven. So when customers tell us what they're trying to do, we want to know more. Tell us in detail how you're trying to get there. What are your requirements? Because if we understand better, then we can engineer what we're doing to meet you there, because we have the fundamental building blocks. Those are mostly done, now what we're trying to do is add the pieces that allow you to implement it into your workflow, into your data center, or into your strategy for leveraging the cloud. >> So Liran, when you're here in 2019, we're having a similar conversation with this customer focus, you've got a value proposition to the IO bandwidth junkies, you can give more, but what's next in your sights? Are you going to show how this for example, you can get higher performance with less hardware? >> So we are already showing how you can get higher performance with less hardware, and I think as we go forward, we're going to have more customers embracing us for more workloads, so what we see already, they get us in for either the high end of their life sciences or their machine learning, and then people working around these people realize hey, I could get some faster speed as well, and then we start expanding within these customers and we get to see more and more workloads where people like us and we can start telling stories about them. The other thing that we have natural to us, we run natively in the cloud, and we actually let you move your workload seamlessly between your on-premises and the cloud, and we are seeing tremendous interest about moving to the cloud today, but not a lot of organizations already do it. I think 19 and forward, we are going to see more and more enterprises considering seriously moving to the cloud, cause we have almost 100% of our customers PFCing, cloudbursting, but not a lot of them using them. I think as time passes, all of them that has seen it working, when they did the initial test, will start leveraging this, and getting the elasticity out of the cloud, because this is what you should get out of the cloud, so this is one way for expansion for us. We are going to spend more resources into Europe, which we have recently started building the team, and later in that year also, JPAC. >> Gentlemen, thanks very much for coming on theCUBE and talking to us about some new advances in file systems that are leading to greater performance, less specialized hardware, and enabling new classes of applications. Liran Zvibel is the CEO of Weka.IO, Andy Watson is the CTO of Weka.IO, thanks for being on theCUBE. >> Thank you very much. >> Yeah, thanks a lot. >> And once again, I'm Peter Burris, and thanks very much for participating in this CUBE Conversation, until next time. (cheery music)

>> [Announcer] From San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering OSIsoft PIWORLD 2018, brought to you by OSIsoft. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we're in downtown San Francisco at the OSIsoft PIWorld 2018. They've been doing it for like 28 years, it's amazing. We've never been here before, it's our first time and really these guys are all about OT, operational transactions. We talk about IoT and industrial IoT, they're doing it here. They're doing it for real and they've been doing it for decades so we're excited to have our next two guests. Tyler Duncan, he's a Technologist from Dell, Tyler, great to see you. >> Hi, thank you. >> He's joined by Ed Watson, the global account manager for channels for Osisoft. Or OSIsoft, excuse me. >> Glad to be here. Thanks, Jeff. >> I assume Dell's one of your accounts. >> Dell is one of my accounts as well as Nokia so-- >> Oh, very good. >> So there's a big nexus there. >> Yep, and we're looking forward to Dell Technology World next week, I think. >> Next week, yeah. >> I think it's the first Dell Technology not Dell EMC World with-- >> That's right. >> I don't know how many people are going to be there, 50,000 or something? >> There'll be a lot. >> There'll be a lot. (laughs) But that's all right, but we're here today... >> Yeah. >> And we're talking about industrial IoT and really what OSIsoft's been doing for a number of years, but what's interesting to me is from the IT side, we kind of look at industrial IoT as just kind of getting here and it's still kind of a new opportunity and looking at things like 5G and looking at things like IPE, ya know, all these sensors are now going to have IP connections on them. So, there's a whole new opportunity to marry the IT and the OT together. The nasty thing is we want to move it out of those clean pristine data centers and get it out to the edge of the nasty oil fields and the nasty wind turbine fields and crazy turbines and these things, so, Edge, what's special about the Edge? What are you guys doing to take care of the special things on the Edge? >> Well, a couple things, I think being out there in the nasty environments is where the money is. So, trying to collect data from the remote assets that really aren't connected right now. In terms of the Edge, you have a variety of small gateways that you can collect the data but what we see now is a move toward more compute at the Edge and that's where Dell comes in. >> Yeah, so I'm part of Dell's Extreme Scale and Structure Group, ESI, and specifically I'm part of our modular data center team. What that means is that for us we are helping to deploy compute out at the Edge and also at the core, but the challenges at the Edge is, you mentioned the kind of the dirty area, well, we can actually change that environment so that's it's not a dirty environment anymore. It's a different set of challenges. It may be more that it's remote, it's lights out, I don't have people there to maintain it, things like that, so it's not necessarily that it's dirty or ruggedized or that's it's high temperature or extreme environments, it just may be remote. >> Right, there's always this kind of balance in terms of, I assume it's all application specific as to what can you process there, what do you have to send back to process, there's always this nasty thing called latency and the speed of the light that just gets in the way all the time. So, how are you redesigning systems? How are you thinking about how much computing store do you put out on the Edge? How do you break up that you send back to central processing? How much do you have to keep? You know we all want to keep everything, it's probably a little bit more practical if you're keepin' it back in the data center versus you're tryin' to store it at the Edge. So how are you looking at some of these factors in designing these solutions? >> [Ed] Well, Jeff, those are good points. And where OSIsoft PI comes in, for the modular data center is to collect all the power cooling and IT data, aggregate it, send to the Cloud what needs to be sent to the Cloud, but enable Dell and their customers to make decisions right there on the Edge. So, if you're using modular data center or Telecom for cell towers or autonomous vehicles for AR VR, what we provide for Dell is a way to manage those modular data centers and when you're talking geographically dispersed modular data centers, it can be a real challenge. >> Yeah, and I think to add to that, there's, when we start lookin' at the Edge and the data that's there, I look at it as kind of two different purposes. There's one of why is that compute there in the first place. We're not defining that, we're just trying to enable our customers to be able to deploy compute however they need. Now when we start looking at our control system and the software monitoring analytics, absolutely. And what we are doing is we want to make sure that when we are capturing that data, we are capturing the right amount of data, but we're also creating the right tools and hooks in place in order to be able to update those data models as time goes on. >> [Jeff] Right. >> So, that we don't have worry about if we got it right on day one. It's updateable and we know that the right solution for one customer and the right data is not necessarily the right data for the next customer. >> [Jeff] Right. >> So we're not going to make the assumptions that we have it all figured out. We're just trying to design the solution so that it's flexible enough to allow customers to do whatever they need to do. >> I'm just curious in terms of, it's obviously important enough to give you guys your own name, Extreme Scale. What is Extreme Scale? 'Cause you said it isn't necessarily because it's dirty data and hardened and kind of environmentally. What makes an Extreme Scale opportunity for you that maybe some of your cohorts will bring you guys into an opportunity? >> Yeah so I think for the Extreme Scale part of it is, it is just doing the right engineering effort, provide the right solution for a customer. As opposed to something that is more of a product base that is bought off of dell.com. >> [Jeff] Okay. >> Everything we do is solution based and so it's listening to the customer, what their challenges are and trying to, again, provide that right solution. There are probably different levels of what's the right level of customization based off of how much that customer is buying. And sometimes that is adding things, sometimes it's taking things away, sometimes it's the remote location or sometimes it's a traditional data center. So our scrimpt scale infrastructure encompasses a lot of different verticals-- >> And are most of solutions that you develop kind of very customer specific or is there, you kind of come up with a solution that's more of an industry specific versus a customer specific? >> Yeah, we do, I would say everything we do is very customer specific. That's what our branch of Dell does. That said, as we start looking at more of the, what we're calling the Edge. I think ther6e are things that have to have a little more of a blend of that kind of product analysis, or that look from a product side. I'm no longer know that I'm deploying 40 megawatts in a particular location on the map, instead I'm deploying 10,000 locations all over the world and I need a solution that works in all of those. It has to be a little more product based in some of those, but still customized for our customers. >> And Jeff, we talked a little bit about scale. It's one thing to have scale in a data center. It's another thing to have scale across the globe. And, this is where PI excels, in that ability to manage that scale. >> Right, and then how exciting is it for you guys? You've been at it awhile, but it's not that long that we've had things like at Dupe and we've had things like Flink and we've had things like Spark, and kind of these new age applications for streaming data. But, you guys were extracting value from these systems and making course corrections 30 years ago. So how are some of these new technologies impacting your guys' ability to deliver value to your customers? >> Well I think the ecosystem itself is very good, because it allows customers to collect data in a way that they want to. Our ability to enable our customers to take data out of PI and put it into the Dupe, or put it into a data lake or an SAP HANA really adds significant value in today's ecosystem. >> It's pretty interesting, because I look around the room at all your sponsors, a lot of familiar names, a lot of new names as well, but in our world in the IT space that we cover, it's funny we've never been here before, we cover a lot of big shows like at Dell Technology World, so you guys have been doing your thing, has an ecosystem always been important for OSIsoft? It's very, very important for all the tech companies we cover, has it always been important for you? Or is it a relatively new development? >> I think it's always been important. I think it's more so now. No one company can do it all. We provide the data infrastructure and then allow our partners and clients to build solutions on top of it. And I think that's what sustains us through the years. >> Final thoughts on what's going on here today and over the last couple of days. Any surprises, hall chatter that you can share that you weren't expecting or really validates what's going on in this space. A lot of activity going on, I love all the signs over the building. This is the infrastructure that makes the rest of the world go whether it's power, transportation, what do we have behind us? Distribution, I mean it's really pretty phenomenal the industries you guys cover. >> Yeah and you know a lot of the sessions are videotaped so you can see Tyler from last year when he gave a presentation. This year Ebay, PayPal are giving presentations. And it's just a very exciting time in the data center industry. >> And I'll say on our side maybe not as much of a surprise, but also hearing the kind of the customer feedback on things that Dell and OSIsoft have partnered together and we work together on things like a Redfish connector in order to be able to, from an agnostic standpoint, be able to pull data from any server that's out there, regardless of brand, we're full support of that. But, to be able to do that in an automatic way that with their connector so that whenever I go and search for my range of IP addresses, it finds all the devices, brings all that data in, organizes it, and makes it ready for me to be able to use. That's a big thing and that's... They've been doing connectors for a while, but that's a new thing as far as being able to bring that and do that for servers. That, if I have 100,000 servers, I can't manually go get all those and bring them in. >> Right, right. >> So, being able to do that in an automatic way is a great enablement for the Edge. >> Yeah, it's a really refreshing kind of point of view. We usually look at it from the other side, from IT really starting to get together with the OT. Coming at it from the OT side where you have such an established customer base, such an established history and solution set and then again marrying that back to the IT and some of the newer things that are happening and that's exciting times. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah. >> Well thanks for spending a few minutes with us. And congratulations on the success of the show. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Alright, he's Tyler, he's Ed, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE from downtown San Francisco at OSIsoft PI WORLD 2018, thanks for watching. (light techno music)

>> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering OSIsoft PIWORLD 2018, brought to you by OSIsoft. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we're in downtown San Francisco at the OSIsoft PIWorld 2018. They've been doing it for like 28 years, it's amazing. We've never been here before, it's our first time and really these guys are all about OT, operational transactions. We talk about IoT and industrial IoT, they're doing it here. They're doing it for real and they've been doing it for decades so we're excited to have our next two guests. Tyler Duncan, he's a Technologist from Dell, Tyler, great to see you. >> Hi, thank you. >> He's joined by Ed Watson, the global account manager for channels for Osisoft. Or OSIsoft, excuse me. >> Glad to be here. Thanks, Jeff. >> I assume Dell's one of your accounts. >> Dell is one of my accounts as well as Nokia so-- >> Oh, very good. >> So there's a big nexus there. >> Yep, and we're looking forward to Dell Technology World next week, I think. >> Next week, yeah. >> I think it's the first Dell Technology not Dell EMC World with-- >> That's right. >> I don't know how many people are going to be there, 50,000 or something? >> There'll be a lot. >> There'll be a lot. (laughs) But that's all right, but we're here today... >> Yeah. >> And we're talking about industrial IoT and really what OSIsoft's been doing for a number of years, but what's interesting to me is from the IT side, we kind of look at industrial IoT as just kind of getting here and it's still kind of a new opportunity and looking at things like 5G and looking at things like IPE, ya know, all these sensors are now going to have IP connections on them. So, there's a whole new opportunity to marry the IT and the OT together. The nasty thing is we want to move it out of those clean pristine data centers and get it out to the edge of the nasty oil fields and the nasty wind turbine fields and crazy turbines and these things, so, Edge, what's special about the Edge? What are you guys doing to take care of the special things on the Edge? >> Well, a couple things, I think being out there in the nasty environments is where the money is. So, trying to collect data from the remote assets that really aren't connected right now. In terms of the Edge, you have a variety of small gateways that you can collect the data but what we see now is a move toward more compute at the Edge and that's where Dell comes in. >> Yeah, so I'm part of Dell's Extreme Scale and Structure Group, ESI, and specifically I'm part of our modular data center team. What that means is that for us we are helping to deploy compute out at the Edge and also at the core, but the challenges at the Edge is, you mentioned the kind of the dirty area, well, we can actually change that environment so that's it's not a dirty environment anymore. It's a different set of challenges. It may be more that it's remote, it's lights out, I don't have people there to maintain it, things like that, so it's not necessarily that it's dirty or ruggedized or that's it's high temperature or extreme environments, it just may be remote. >> Right, there's always this kind of balance in terms of, I assume it's all application specific as to what can you process there, what do you have to send back to process, there's always this nasty thing called latency and the speed of the light that just gets in the way all the time. So, how are you redesigning systems? How are you thinking about how much computing store do you put out on the Edge? How do you break up that you send back to central processing? How much do you have to keep? You know we all want to keep everything, it's probably a little bit more practical if you're keepin' it back in the data center versus you're tryin' to store it at the Edge. So how are you looking at some of these factors in designing these solutions? >> Ed: Well, Jeff, those are good points. And where OSIsoft PI comes in, for the modular data center is to collect all the power cooling and IT data, aggregate it, send to the Cloud what needs to be sent to the Cloud, but enable Dell and their customers to make decisions right there on the Edge. So, if you're using modular data center or Telecom for cell towers or autonomous vehicles for AR VR, what we provide for Dell is a way to manage those modular data centers and when you're talking geographically dispersed modular data centers, it can be a real challenge. >> Yeah, and I think to add to that, there's, when we start lookin' at the Edge and the data that's there, I look at it as kind of two different purposes. There's one of why is that compute there in the first place. We're not defining that, we're just trying to enable our customers to be able to deploy compute however they need. Now when we start looking at our control system and the software monitoring analytics, absolutely. And what we are doing is we want to make sure that when we are capturing that data, we are capturing the right amount of data, but we're also creating the right tools and hooks in place in order to be able to update those data models as time goes on. >> Jeff: Right. >> So, that we don't have worry about if we got it right on day one. It's updateable and we know that the right solution for one customer and the right data is not necessarily the right data for the next customer. >> Jeff: Right. >> So we're not going to make the assumptions that we have it all figured out. We're just trying to design the solution so that it's flexible enough to allow customers to do whatever they need to do. >> I'm just curious in terms of, it's obviously important enough to give you guys your own name, Extreme Scale. What is Extreme Scale? 'Cause you said it isn't necessarily because it's dirty data and hardened and kind of environmentally. What makes an Extreme Scale opportunity for you that maybe some of your cohorts will bring you guys into an opportunity? >> Yeah so I think for the Extreme Scale part of it is, it is just doing the right engineering effort, provide the right solution for a customer. As opposed to something that is more of a product base that is bought off of dell.com. >> Jeff: Okay. >> Everything we do is solution based and so it's listening to the customer, what their challenges are and trying to, again, provide that right solution. There are probably different levels of what's the right level of customization based off of how much that customer is buying. And sometimes that is adding things, sometimes it's taking things away, sometimes it's the remote location or sometimes it's a traditional data center. So our scrimpt scale infrastructure encompasses a lot of different verticals-- >> And are most of solutions that you develop kind of very customer specific or is there, you kind of come up with a solution that's more of an industry specific versus a customer specific? >> Yeah, we do, I would say everything we do is very customer specific. That's what our branch of Dell does. That said, as we start looking at more of the, what we're calling the Edge. I think ther6e are things that have to have a little more of a blend of that kind of product analysis, or that look from a product side. I'm no longer know that I'm deploying 40 megawatts in a particular location on the map, instead I'm deploying 10,000 locations all over the world and I need a solution that works in all of those. It has to be a little more product based in some of those, but still customized for our customers. >> And Jeff, we talked a little bit about scale. It's one thing to have scale in a data center. It's another thing to have scale across the globe. And, this is where PI excels, in that ability to manage that scale. >> Right, and then how exciting is it for you guys? You've been at it awhile, but it's not that long that we've had things like at Dupe and we've had things like Flink and we've had things like Spark, and kind of these new age applications for streaming data. But, you guys were extracting value from these systems and making course corrections 30 years ago. So how are some of these new technologies impacting your guys' ability to deliver value to your customers? >> Well I think the ecosystem itself is very good, because it allows customers to collect data in a way that they want to. Our ability to enable our customers to take data out of PI and put it into the Dupe, or put it into a data lake or an SAP HANA really adds significant value in today's ecosystem. >> It's pretty interesting, because I look around the room at all your sponsors, a lot of familiar names, a lot of new names as well, but in our world in the IT space that we cover, it's funny we've never been here before, we cover a lot of big shows like at Dell Technology World, so you guys have been doing your thing, has an ecosystem always been important for OSIsoft? It's very, very important for all the tech companies we cover, has it always been important for you? Or is it a relatively new development? >> I think it's always been important. I think it's more so now. No one company can do it all. We provide the data infrastructure and then allow our partners and clients to build solutions on top of it. And I think that's what sustains us through the years. >> Final thoughts on what's going on here today and over the last couple of days. Any surprises, hall chatter that you can share that you weren't expecting or really validates what's going on in this space. A lot of activity going on, I love all the signs over the building. This is the infrastructure that makes the rest of the world go whether it's power, transportation, what do we have behind us? Distribution, I mean it's really pretty phenomenal the industries you guys cover. >> Yeah and you know a lot of the sessions are videotaped so you can see Tyler from last year when he gave a presentation. This year Ebay, PayPal are giving presentations. And it's just a very exciting time in the data center industry. >> And I'll say on our side maybe not as much of a surprise, but also hearing the kind of the customer feedback on things that Dell and OSIsoft have partnered together and we work together on things like a Redfish connector in order to be able to, from an agnostic standpoint, be able to pull data from any server that's out there, regardless of brand, we're full support of that. But, to be able to do that in an automatic way that with their connector so that whenever I go and search for my range of IP addresses, it finds all the devices, brings all that data in, organizes it, and makes it ready for me to be able to use. That's a big thing and that's... They've been doing connectors for a while, but that's a new thing as far as being able to bring that and do that for servers. That, if I have 100,000 servers, I can't manually go get all those and bring them in. >> Right, right. >> So, being able to do that in an automatic way is a great enablement for the Edge. >> Yeah, it's a really refreshing kind of point of view. We usually look at it from the other side, from IT really starting to get together with the OT. Coming at it from the OT side where you have such an established customer base, such an established history and solution set and then again marrying that back to the IT and some of the newer things that are happening and that's exciting times. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah. >> Well thanks for spending a few minutes with us. And congratulations on the success of the show. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Alright, he's Tyler, he's Ed, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE from downtown San Francisco at OSIsoft PI WORLD 2018, thanks for watching. (light techno music)

I from Las Vegas Nevada it's the cube covering IBM world of Watson 2016 brought to you by IBM now here are your hosts John furrier and Dave vellante hey welcome back everyone we're here live in Las Vegas for IBM's world of Watson at the mandalay bay here this is the cube SiliconANGLE media's flagship program we go out to the events and extract the signal-to-noise I'm John Ford SiliconANGLE i'm here with dave vellante my co-host chief researcher red Wikibon calm and our next guest is inderpal bhandari who's the chief global chief data officer for IBM welcome to the cube welcome back thank you thank you meet you you have in common with Dave at the last event 10 years Papa John was just honest we just talked about the ten year anniversary of I OD information on demand and Dave's joke why thought was telling we'll set up the says that ten years ago different data conversation how do you get rid of it is I don't want the compliance and liability now it shifted to a much more organic innovative exciting yeah I need a value add what's the shift what's the big change in 10 years what besides the obvious of the Watson vision how did what it move so fast or too slow what's your take on this ya know so David used to be viewed as exhaust right the tribe is something to get rid of like you pointed out and now it's much more to an asset and in fact you know people are even talking about about quantifying it as an asset so that you can reflect it on the balance sheet and stuff like that so it certainly moved a long long way and I think part of it has to do with the fact that we are inundated with data and data does contain valuable information and to the extent that you're able to glean it and act on it efficiently and quickly and accurately it leads to a competitive advantage what's the landscape for architects out there because a lot of things that we hear is that ok i buy the day they I got a digital transformation ok but now I got to get put the data to work so I need to have it all categorized what's the setup is there a general architecture philosophy that you could share with companies that are trying to set themselves up for some baseline foundational sets of building blocks I mean I think they buy the Watson dream that's a little Headroom I just want to start in kindergarten or in little league or whatever metaphor we want to use any to baseline what's today what's the building blocks approach the building blocks approach I mean from a if you're talking about a pure technical architectural that kind of approach that's one thing if you're really going after a methodology that's going to allow you to create value from data I would back you up further I would say that you want to start with the business itself and gaining an understanding of how the business is going to go about monetizing itself not its data but you know what is the businesses monetization strategy how does the business plan to make money over the next few years not how it makes money today but over the next few years how it plans to make money that's the right starting point once you've understood that then it's basically reflecting on how data is best used in service of that and then that leads you down to the architecture the technologies the people you need the skills makes the process Tanner intuitive the way it used to be the ivory tower or we would convene and dictate policy and schemas on databases and say this is how you do it you're saying the opposite business you is going to go in and own the road map if you will the business it's a business roadmap and then figure it out yeah go back then go back well that's that's really the better way to address it than my way so the framework that we talked about in in Boston and now and just you're like the professor I'm the student so and I've been out speaking to other cheap date officers about it it's spot on this framework so let me briefly summarize it and we can I heard you not rebuilding it to me babe I'm saying this is Allah Falls framework I've stolen it but with no shame no kidding and so again we're doing a live TV it's you know he can source your head I will give him credit so but you have said they're there are two parallel and three sequential activities that have to take place for data opposite of chief data officer the two parallel our partnership with the line of business and get the skill sets right the three sequential are the thing you just mentioned how you going to monetize data access to data data sources and Trust trust the data okay so great framework and I'd say I've tested it some CEOs have said to me well I geeza that's actually better than the framework I had so they've sort of evolved as I said you're welcome and oh okay but now so let's drill into that a little bit maybe starting with the monetization piece in the early days Jonna when people are talking about Big Data it was the the mistake people made was I got to sell the data monetize the data itself not necessarily it's what you're saying yes yes I think that's the common pitfall with that when you start thinking about monetization and you're the chief data officer your brain naturally goes to well how do I monetize the data that's the wrong question the question really is how is the business planning to monetize itself what is the monetization strategy for the overall business and once you understand that then you kind of back into what data is needed to support it and that's really kind of the sets the staff the strategy in place and then the next two steps off well then how do you govern that data so it's fit for the purpose of that business lead that you just identified and finally what data is so critical that you want to centralize it and make sure that it's completely trusted so you back into those three those three steps so thinking about data sources you know people always say well should you start with internal should you start with external and the answer presumably is it depends it depends on the business so how do you how do you actually go through that decision tree what's that process like yeah I mean if you know you start with the monetization strategy of the company so for example I'll use IBM a banana and the case of IBM took me the first few months to understand that our monetization strategy was around cognitive business specifically making enterprises into cognitive businesses and so then the strategy that we have internally for IBM's data is to enable cognition within within IBM the enterprise and move forward with that and then that becomes a showcase for our customers because it is after all such a good example of a complex enterprise and so backing you know backing in from that strategy it becomes clear what are some of the critical data elements that you need to master that you need to trust that you need to centralize and you need to govern very very rigorously so that's basically how I approached it did I answer your question daivam do you get so so you touched on the on the second part I want to drill into the the third sequential activities which which is sources so i did so you did we just talk about this well the sources i mean if you had something add to that yes in terms of the i think you mentioned the internal versus external so one thing else i'll mention especially if you kind of take that 10-year outlook that we were talking about 10 years ago serials had very internal outlook in terms of the data was all internal business data today it's much more external as well there's a lot more exogenous data that we have to handle and validity and that's because we're making use of a lot more unstructured data so things like news feeds press releases articles that have just been written all our fair game to amplify the view that you have about some entity so for example if we're dealing with a new supplier you know previously we might gather some information by talking with them now we'd also be able to look at essentially everything that's out there about them and factor that in so it is a there's an element of the exogenous data that's brought to bear and then that obviously becomes part of the realm of the CDO as well to make sure that that data is available and you unusable by the business is John Kelly said something go ahead sorry well Jeff Jonas would say that's the observation space right that you want to have the news feeds it's extra metadata that could change the alchemy if you will of whatever the mix of the data is that kind of well yeah I would say you might even go further than just metadata i would say that in some some sense it's part of your intrinsic data set because you know it gives you additional information about the entities that you're collecting data on and that measuring the John Kelly in the keynote this morning he made two statements he said one is in three to five years every health care practitioners going to going to want to consult Watson and then he also said same thing for MA because watch is going to know every public piece of data about every single company right so it's would seem that within the three to five year time frame that the shift is going to be increasingly toward external data sources not necessarily the value in the lever points but in terms of the volume certainly of data is that fair I think it's a it's a fair statement I mean I think if you think of it in the healthcare context if you know a patient comes in and there's a doctor or a practitioner that's examining the patient right there they're generating some data based on their interaction but then if you think about the exogenous data that's relevant and pertinent to that case that could involve you know thousands of journals and articles and so you know your example of essentially saying that the external data could be far greater than the internal data out say we're already there okay and then the third sequential piece is trust are you gonna be able to trust the trust we talk a lot about we were down to Big Data NYC the same week you guys made your big announcement the data works everybody talks about data Lakes we joke gets the data swamp and can't really trust the data yeah we further away from a single version of the truth than we ever were so how are you dealing with that problem internally at IBM and what's the focus is it more on reporting is it more on supporting lines of business in product yeah the focus internal within IBM is in terms of driving cognition at the way I would describe it is at points where today we have significant human judgment being exercised to make decisions and that's you know thousands of points in our enterprise or complicated enterprise like IBM's and each of those decision points is actually an opportunity to inject cognitive technology and play and then bring to bear and augmented intelligence to those decisions that you know a factors in the exogenous data so leaving a much better informed decision but also them a much more accurate decision okay the two parallel activities let's start with the first one line of business you know relationships sounds like bromide why is it not just sort of a trite throwaway statement what where's the detail behind that so the detail behind that if you go back to the very first and the most important step and this whole thing with regard to the monetization strategy of the company understanding that if you don't have those deep relationships with the lines of business there's no way that you'll be able to understand the monetization strategy of the business so that's why that's a concurrent activity that has to start on day one otherwise you won't even get past the you know that that very first first base in terms of understanding what the monetization strategies are for the business and that can only really come by working directly with the business units meeting with their leadership understanding their business so you have to do that due diligence and that's where that partnership becomes critical then as you move on as you progress to that sequence you need them again so for instance once you understood the strategy and now you understood what data you need to follow that strategy and to govern it you need their help in governing the business because in many cases the businesses may be the ones collecting the data or at least controlling the source systems for that data so that partnership then just gets deeper and deeper and deeper as you move forward in that program I love the conscience of monetizing earlier and this some tweets going around you know what's holding it back cost of building it obviously and manageability but I want to bring that back and bring a developer perspective here because a lot of emphasis is on developing apps where the data is now part of the development process I wrote a blog post in 2008 saying that dated some new development kit radical at the time but reality it came out to be true and that they're looking at data as library of value to tap into so if stuffs annandale they could be sitting there for years but I could pull something out and be very relevant in context in real time and change the game on some insight and the insight economy is bob was saying so what is your strategy for IBM 21 on board more developer goodness and to how do you talk to customers were really trying to figure out a developer strategy so they can build apps and not to go back and rewrite it make it certainly mobile first etc but what's how does a date of first appt get built and I should developers be programming with you I'll give you a way to think about it right i mean and going back again to that ten-year paradigm shift right so ten years ago if somebody wanted to write an application and put it on the internet and it was based on data the hardest part was getting hold of the data because it was just very very difficult for them to get all of it to access the data and then those who did manage to get all of the data they were very successful in being able to utilize it so now with the the paradigm shift that's happened now is the approaches that you make the data available to developers and so they don't have to go through that work both in terms of accessing collecting finding that data then cleaning it it's also significant and so time consuming that it could put put back there their whole process of eventually getting to the app so to the extent that you have large stores of data that are ready to go and you can then make that available to a body of developers it just unleashes it's like having a library of code available is it all the hard work and I think that's a good way to look at it I mean that's think that's a very good way to look at it because you've also got technologies like the deep learning technologies where you can essentially train them with data so you don't need to write the code they get trained to later so I see a DevOps of data means like an agile meets I'm again you're right a lot of the cleaning and this is where you no more noise we all know that problem or data creates more noise better cleaning tools so however you can automate that yes seems to be the secret differentiator it's an accelerator it's amazing accelerator for development if you have good sets of data that are available for them to used so I want to round out my my little framework here your frame working with my my learnings for the fifth one being skills yes so this is complicated because it involves organization skills changes as pepper going through the lava here we try to get her on the cube Dave home to think the pamper okay babe yeah so should I take over pepper you want to go see pepper I want to see pepper on the cube hey sorry exact dress but so a lot of issues there there's reporting structures so what do you mean when you talk about sort of the skill sets and rescaling so and I'll describe to you a little bit about the organization that I have at IBM as an example some of that carries over and some of that doesn't the reason I say that is again I mean the skills piece there are some generic skill sets that you need for to be achieved data officer to be a successful chief data officer in an enterprise there is one pillar that I have in my organization is around data science data engineering DevOps deep learning and these are the folks who are adept at those technologies and approaches and methodologies and they can take those and apply them to the enterprise so in a sense these are the more technical people then another pillar that's again pretty generic and you have to have it is the information and data governance pillow so that anything that's flowing any data that's flowing through the data platform that I spoke off in the first pillar that those that that data is governed and fit for purpose so they have to worry about that as soon as any data is you even think of introducing that into the platform these folks have to be on that and they're essentially governing it making sure that people have the right access security the quality is good its improving there's a path to improving it and so forth I think those are some fairly generic you know skill sets that we have to get in the case of the first pillar what's difficult is that there aren't that many people with those skills and so it's hard to find that talent and so the sooner you get on it so that would that's the biggest barrier in the case of the second pillar what's the most difficult piece there is you need people who can walk the balance between monetization and governance too much governance and you essentially slow everything down and nothing moved a cuff and you're handcuffed and then you know if it's too much monetization you might run aground because you you ignored some major regulation so walking that loss of market value yeah that's what you have to really get ahead of your skis as they say and have a faceplant you'll try too hard to live boost mobile web startups like Twitter that's big cock rock concert with Twitter Facebook if you try to monetize too early yes you lose the flywheel effect of value absolutely so walking that balance is critical so that's that that's really finding the skill set to be able to do that that's that's what what's at play in that second or the third one is if you are applying it to an enterprise you have to integrate these you know this platform into the workflow off the enterprise itself otherwise you're not going to create any impact because that's where the impact gets created right that's basically where the data is that the tip of the spear to so to speak so you it's going to create value and in a large enterprise which has legacy systems which are silos which is acquiring companies and so on and so forth that's enough itself a significant job and that skill set is that's a handicapped because if you have that kind of siloed mentality you don't get the benefits of the data sharing right so what's that what's said how much how much effort would it take I'm just kind of painting that picture kind of like out there like well a lot of massively hard ya know that that's you know a lot of you know a lot of people think that data mining is all about my data you know this is my data I'm not going to give it to you the one of the functions of the chief data office is to change that mindset yeah and to stop making use of the data in a broader context than just a departmental siloed type of approach and now some data can legitimately be used only departmentally but the moment you need two or more department start using that data I mean it's essentially corporate data so are those roles a shared service everybody see that works it maybe varies but is it a shared service that reports into the chief data officer or is it embedded into the business those those skill sets that you talked about I think those skill sets are definitely part of the chief data officer you know organization now it's interesting you mentioned that about embedding them and the business units now in a in a large enterprise a complicated enterprise like IBM the different business units and that potentially have different business objectives and so forth you know you you do need a chief data officer role for each of these business units and that's something that I've been advocating that's my fault pillar and we are setting that up and then within the context of IBM so that they serve the business unit but they essentially reporting to me so that they can make use of the overall corporate structure you do their performance review the performance review is done by the business unit it is ok but the functional direction is given by me ok so I get back to still go either way oh yes that's a balance loon yeah absolutely under a lot of time for sure i'll get back to this data mining because you bring up a good point we can maybe continue on our next time we talk but data monies were all the cutting edge kind of best practices are were arsed work what we're relations are still there technically if you're here but that the dynamic of data mining is is that you're assuming no new data so with if you have a lot of data coming in most of the best data mining techniques are like a corpus you attack it and learned but if the pile of data is getting bigger faster that you could date a mine it what good is against or initial circular hole I'm going to again you know just take you back 10 years from now and now right and the differences between the two so it's very interesting points that you bring up I'll give you an example from 10 years ago this data mining example not ten years ago actually my first go-around at IBM so it's like 94 yeah one of the things I've done was we had a program a computer program that every team in the National Basketball Association started using and this was a classic data mining program it would look at the data and find insights and present them and one of the insights that it came up with and this was for a critical playoff game it told the coach you got to play your backup point guard and your backup forward now think about that which same coach would actually go with that so it's very hard for them to believe that they don't know if it's right or wrong in my own insurance and the way we got around that was we essentially pointed back to the snippets of video where those circumstances occurred and now the coach could see what is going on make a you know an informed decision flash forward to now the systems we have now can actually look at all that context all at once what's happening in the video what's happening in the audio also the data can piece together the context so data mining is very different today than what it was them now it's all about weaving the context and the story together and serving it up yeah what happened what's happening and what's going to happen kinda is the theaters of yes there are in sight writing what happened it's easy just yeah look at the data and spit out some insight what's happening now is a bit harder in memory I think that's the difference between cognition as it away versus data mining as you know we understood a few years ago great cartridge we can go for another hour but do we ever get enough love to follow up on some of the deep learning maybe come down to armonk next time we're in this certainly on the sports data we have a whole program on sports data so we love the sports with the ESPN of tech and bringing you all the action right here yes I did Doug before Moneyball you know my mistake was letting right yeah yeah right the next algorithm but that's okay you know we put a little foot mark on the cube notes for that thank you very much thank you appreciate okay live in Mandalay Bay we're right back with more live coverage I'm Sean for a table on thing great back today I am helping people

hi from Las Vegas Nevada it's the cube covering IBM world of Watson 2016 brought to you by IBM now here are your hosts John Fourier as Dave Volante hey welcome back everyone we are here live at the Mandalay Bay at the IBM world of Watson this is Silicon angles cube our flagship program we go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise I'm John Fourier with my co-host Dave allanté for the two days of wall-to-wall coverage our next guest is michelle fools so who's the chief marketing officer for IBM knew the company fairly new within the past year yes welcome to the queue last month I think you check all these new hires a lot of new blood coming inside me but this is a theme we heard from Staples to be agile to be fast you're new what's what's your impressions and what's your mandate for the branding the IBM strong brand but yes what's the future look well look I'm I'm thrilled to be here and I'm thrilled to be here because this is an extraordinary company that makes real difference in the world right and that I think you feel it here at the world of Watson in the sort of everyday ways that Watson and IBM touches consumers such as end-users makes their health better you know allows them to have greater experiences so so that's incredible to be part of my kind of company having said that and exactly to your point it's a time of acceleration and change for everyone in IBM is not immune to that and so my mandate here in my remit here and coming in and being a huge fan of what IBM has to say well how do we sharpen our messaging how do we always feel like a challenger brand you know how do we think about what Watson can do for people what the cloud can do what our services business can do and how is that distinctive and differentiated from everybody else out there and I think we have an incredible amount of assets to play with that's got to be through the line you know it's no longer the case that we can have a message on TV and that you know attracts the world the digital experiences are having every single day when they're clicking through on an ad when they're chatting with somebody when their car call center when they have a sales interaction is that differentiated message that brand resident all the way through second thing is marketing's become much more of a science you know and that to me is super exciting I've been a CEO most of my career and you know that the notion that marketing has to drive revenue that marketing has to drive retention and loyalty and expansion that we can come to the table with much more science in terms of what things are most effective in making sure that more clients love us more deeply for longer I'm gonna ask you the question because we had we've had many conversations with Kevin he was just here he was on last year Bob Lord the new chief digital officer we talked to your customers kind of the proof points in today's market is about transparency and if you're not a digital company how could you expect customers to to work with them so this has been a big theme for IBM you guys are hyper focused on being a digital company yes yes and how does it affect the brand a brand contract with the users what's your thoughts on that well first of all Bob Lord is awesome we've known each other for 10 years so it's so wonderful to be working with him again and Dave Kenny as well I think that the at the end of the day consumers have experiences and and you know think of every business you know out there as a consumer and they're having experiences all the time their expectations are being shaped by the fact that they go on Amazon and get prime delivery right their expectations are being shaped by they can go on Netflix and get you know personalized recommendations for them or Spotify and so our job of course and we have some of the greatest technical minds in the world it's to make sure that every experience lines up with the highest of their expectations and so much of that is digital and so my passion my background is entirely in the digital space I have a CEO of Travelocity and then CEO of gilt chief marketing a digital officer at Citigroup so the notion that you know the world's greatest digital experiences is something I'm very passionate about you mentioned Zelda so big TV ads and you think of the smarter planet which was so effective but it was a big TV campaign so you do what's the what's the sort of strategy that you're envisioning is in sort of digital breadcrumbs maybe you could talk about deadly yeah well think about Watson it's a perfect place to think about the Watson branding what does Watson really mean right Watson is and Ginni has said this so well of course it's cognitive and but at the end of the day it's about helping people make better decisions and so you can do some advertising with Watson and Bob Dylan and Watson and you know the young young girl with Serena and and you can get that messaging high but then you've got to bring it all the way through so that's why it's something like this is so powerful to see Woodside up their alley or all these companies talking about staples how they are using Watson embedded in their processes their tools to make their end-users experiences better and how nobody else could do this for them the way Watson's doing it that's taking a brand on high and advertising message on high and delivering value for businesses for patients for consumers all the way through that's what we have to do I got to ask you about that ad advertising trends I so we all see ad blocker in the news digital is a completely different new infrastructure expanded dynamic with social what not you can talk about Bob and I were talking last night about it too you Trevor you know banner ads are all out there impression base and then coded URLs to a landing page email marketing not gonna go away anytime soon but it's changing rapidly we have now new channels yeah what's your thoughts because this is now a new kind of ROI equation is there any thoughts on how you look at that and is it going to integrate into the top level campaigns how are you looking at the new digital that the cutting-edge digital stuff huge amounts of thoughts on this topic so I think you know if you think back 15 20 years ago there were always something called market mix modelling which helps advertisers and marketers to understand the effectiveness of their TV campaigns and frankly not too dissimilar from Nielsen you know there were so there was art and science at best in it and then all of a sudden the digital world evolved and you could get at a tactical level very very clear about attribution and whether you drove something and the challenge for us now is much more sophisticated models that are multi-touch attribution because the reality is an average consumer doesn't do one thing or have one interaction with a brand they're gonna see a TV show and watch a commercial while they're watching that commercial that business user or that end consumer is on their iPad or on their phone they're seeing a digital ad the next day at work they're being retargeted because they were aughts company they search for something they see a search campaign our job is to connect those dots and understand what really moves that consumer that business user to take an action and there are many sophisticated multi-touch attribution models where you model you know a standard set of behaviors and you test correlations against a bunch of different behaviors so you understand of what I did all the money I spent what really drove impact and by cohort I think that's the other credit there's no more the sense of sort of aggregated everything you really have to break it out yeah I didn't space my cohort to see what moves me and improve that experience right which has been you you get the example in the day of the Hilton retirees you already know that the retard the hotel was full so so obviously Watson plays a role in them Satyam plays a role in that so it's all about data it's all about you know that's where I think Watson can be extraordinarily helpful so if you think about the tool as a marketer has they're becoming more and more sophisticated and retargeting with something out of 10 years ago whenever was introduced that helped all of us a little bit and getting that message but it is only as good as the API is behind it and the the experience behind it when now when I was at gilt I was CEO of gilt we would put over a thousand products on sale every day that would be sold out by the next day sales down this 24-hour flash sale we had to get really really good at knowing how to how to retarget because last thing you want is to retarget something that sold out right or gone the next day and understand the user that was in and out and they're coming back and of course in that cohort that's where Watson to me is very exciting and you probably saw this in some of the demos of where Watson can help marketers you know where Watson can can really understand what are the drivers of behavior and what is likely to drive the highest purpose why were you so successful at guild and and how are the challenges different years because there's a sort of relatively more narrow community or city group to I was called the chief marketing and digital officer at Citigroup and and you know a tremendous budget and a lot of transactions you have to drive every day a lot of people you want to open credit cards and bank accounts so around the world I think that the the relentless focus on on marketing being art and science you know art and science and I think that's you know that passion for analytics passion for measurement having been CEO that passion for being able to say this is what we're doing and this is what we're driving so you've been kind of a data geek in your career you mentioned the financial services you can't to measure everything but back to the ad question you know the old saying used to be wasting half my advertise I just don't know which half yeah and my archives is wasted but now for the first time in the history of business in the modern era you measure everything online that's right so does that change your view and the prism of how you look at the business cuz you mentioned multi-touch yeah so now does that change the accountability for the suppliers I mean at agencies doing the big campaign I think it changes the game for all of us and there's no destination this is every day you can get better at optimizing your budget and and I would be the first to tell you as much of a sort of engineering and data geek because I've always been and deep-fried in the reality is there is art even in those attribution models what look back windows you choose etc that you know you're making decisions as a company but once you make those decisions you can start arraying all of your campaigns and saying what really moved the needle what was the most effective it's not an indictment that say what are we can do differently tomorrow you know the best marketers are always optimizing they're always figuring out at what point in the final can we get better tomorrow well in answer about talent because that's one of the things that we always talk about and also get your thoughts on Women in Technology scheme we were just at Grace Hopper last week and we started to fellowship called the tech truth and we're doing it's real passion area for us we have a site up QP 65 net / women in tech all women interviews we're really trying it the word out but this is now a big issue because now it's not stem anymore it's team arts is in there and we were also talking to the virtual reality augmented reality user experience is now potentially going to come into the immersion students and there's not enough artists yeah so you starting to see a combination of new discipline talents that are needed in the professions as well as the role of women in technology yeah your thoughts on that because this isn't you've been very successful what's your view on that at what's your thoughts about thank you for what you're doing right it takes a lot of people up there saying that this is important to make a difference so most of all thank you you know I think that this this is obviously a place I've been passion about forever I remember being a and being pregnant and that becoming this huge you know issue a news story and you're trying to juggle it right and how could a woman CEO be pregnant so it's so funny how people ridiculous took attention but but I think that the point is that the the advantage as a company has when there are great women in engineering and great women in data science and great women and user experience and design are just palpable they're probable in a variety of ways right when the team thinks differently the team is more creative the team is more open to new ideas the output for the customers are better right I mean they just saw a snapchat today just announced that in 2013 70% of their users were women so all the early adopters were women you know now it's balance but the early the early crowd were women and so we have got to figure out how to break some of the minds now I'm incredibly encouraged though while we still have a long way to go the numbers would suggest that we're having the conversation more and more and women are starting to see other women like them that they want to be it's a global narrative which is good why we're putting some journalists on there and funding it as and just as a fellowship because this it's a global story yeah okay and the power women I mean it's like there are real coders and this real talent coming in and the big theme that came out of that was is that 50% of the consumers of product are women's but therefore they should have some women features and related some vibe in there not just a male software driven concept well and should too when a powerful individual male individual like Satya steps in it and and you know understands what the mistaken and someone like refer to his speech two years ago where he said that you should just bad karma don't speak up and opening up transparency he got some heat yeah but that talk as you probably know but my opinion it's it's it's a positive step when an individual like that it was powerful and opening transparency within their company yeah that's it is that great networking I host a core I've been doing this for a year years with a good friend of mine Susan line from AOL we host a quarterly breakfast for women in tech every every quarter in New York City and we've been doing it for a long time it's amazing when those women come together the conversations we have the discussions we have how to help each other and support each other and so that's that's a real passion we were lost in a few weeks ago for the data science summit which Babu Chiana was hosting in and one of the folks was hosting the data divas breakfast we a couple there were a couple day two dudes who walked in and it was interesting yeah the perspectives 25 percent of the women or the chief data officer were women mm-hmm which was an interesting discussion as well so great 1,000 men at 15 you know as you see that techno but it's certainly changing when I get back to the mentoring thing because one of the things that we're all so passionate about is you've been a pioneer okay so now there's now an onboarding of new talent new personas new professions are being developed because we're seeing a new type of developer we're seeing new types of I would say artists becoming either CG so there's new tech careers that weren't around and a lot of the new jobs that are going to be coming online haven't even been invented yet right so you see cognition and what cognitive is enabling is a new application of skills yep can your thoughts on that because this is an onboarding opportunity so this could change the the number of percentage of women is diverse when you think about what I mean it's clear your notion of steam right your notion of stem that is a male and female phenomena and that is what this country needs it's what this world needs more of and so there's a policy and education obligation and all of us have to the next generation to say let's make sure we're doing right by them in terms of education and job opportunities when you think about onboarding I mean to me that the biggest thing about onboarding is the world is so much more interconnected than it used to be if you're a marketer it's not just art or science you have to do both it's a right brain left brain connectivity and I think 1020 years ago you could grow up in a discipline that was functional and maybe siloed and maybe you were great at left brain or great at right brain and the world demands so much more it's a faster pace it's an accelerated pace and the interconnection is critical and I've one of the things we're doing is we're putting together these diamond teams and I think it's going to really help lead the industry diamond teams are when you have on every small agile marketing team and analytics head a product marketing had a portfolio marketing had a design or a social expert these small pods that work on campaigns gone are the days that you could say designer designs it product comes up with the concept then it goes so it's design team then it goes to a production team then it goes to an analytics team we're forcing this issue by putting these teams together and saying you work together every day you'll get a good sense of where the specialty is and how you learn how to make your own discipline better because you've got the analytics person asked a question about media buying and media planning advertising as we're seeing this new real-time wet web yeah world mobile world go out the old days of planned media buyers placed the advertisement was a pacing item for execution yep now things you mentioned in the guild flash sales so now you're seeing new everyday flash opportunities to glob on to an opportunity to be engagement yeah and create a campaign on the fly yes and a vision of you guys I mean do you see that and does it change the cadence of how you guys do your execution of course of course that's one of the reasons we're moving to this diamond team and agile I think agile will ultimately be as impactful to marketing as it was to engineering and development and so I think the of course and that has to start with great modeling and great attribution because you have to know where things are performing so that you can iterate all the time I mean I believe in a world where you don't have marketing budgets and I know that sounds insane but I believe in a world where you set target and ranges on what you think you're gonna spend at the beginning of the year and every week like an accordion you're optimizing spend shipping code you've been marketing you should be doing like code so much of marketing is its episodic you boom and then it dies in a moment it's gone to the next one and you're talking about something that's I love that you know the personas to your point are much more fluid as well you got Millennials just creating their own vocations yes well this is where I think consumer companies have led the path and you know if you think about a lot of b2b companies we've had this aggregated CIO type buyer and now we've got to get much more sophisticated about what does the developer want you know what's important to the developer the messaging the tools the capabilities the user experience what about the marketer you know what the person in financial services and so both industry and professional discipline and you know schooling now with Watson you don't have to guess what they want you can actually just ask them yeah well you can actually the huge advantage you got you observe the observation space is now addressable right so you pull that in and say and that's super important even the stereotype of the persona is changing you've been saying all week that the developer is increasingly becoming business oriented maybe they don't they want they don't want to go back and get their MBA but they want to learn about capex versus op X and that's relevant to them and they to be a revolutionary you have to understand the impact right and and and they want to ship code they want to change the world I mean that is every engineering team I've ever worked at the time only worked with I mean I've been as close to engineering as from day one of the internet or early on in the internet great engineers are revolutionaries they want to change the world and they change the world they want to have a broader and broader understanding of what levers are at their disposal and I will say that I you know and I am one of the reasons I came to yam is I am passionate about this point technology cannot be in the hands of a few companies on the west coast who are trying to control and dominate the experience technology has to exist for all those amazing developers everywhere in the world who will make a difference to end user this is IBM strategy you actually have a big presence on the west coast also in Germany so you guys are going to where the action centers ours but not trying to just be so Malory point is what exactly because my point is IBM has always been there for making businesses stronger and better we don't monetize their data that's not our thing our thing is to use our cloud our cognitive capabilities and Watson to make actual businesses better so that ultimately consumers have better health care and better results I know you're new on the job silence this is not a trick question just kind of a more conversational as you talk to Bob lower Bob Chiana Jeanne yeah what's the promise of the brand and you used to be back in the days when you know Bob piano we talk about when we I worked at IBM in the 80s co-op student and it was you'll never get fired for buying IBM mainframe the kind of concept but it's evolved and I'll see we see a smarter plan what's the brand promise now you guys talk about what's the brainstorm on its head I think that I think the greatest innovators the world the most passionate business leaders of tomorrow come to IBM to make the world better and I I believe this is a brand for the forward the forward lookers the risk takers the you know the makers I think that you come to IBM because there's extraordinary assets and industry knowledge real humans real relationships that we exist to make your business better not our business will be a vibrato be exist to make your business better that has always been where IBM has been strong you know it's interesting that brings up a good point and just riffing on that Dave and I were just observing you know at the Grace Hopper with our tech truth mentorship which is promoting the intersection of Technology and social justice you're seeing that mission of Technology business value and social justice as an integral part of strategies because now the consumer access the consumerization of business yeah software based is now part of that feedback you're not doing good Millennials demand it I mean Millennials now when you look at the research in the next generation high Millennials are very very you know they want to know what are you doing for the world I mean who could do a 60 minute show besides IBM who could have who could be on 60 minutes changing cancer changing cancer outcomes for people beside IBM that that is an extraordinary testament to what the brand is and how it comes to life every day and that's important for Millennials we had Mary click-clack Clinton yesterday she is so impressive we're talking about how though these ozone layer is getting smaller these are us problems it can be solved they have to be so climate change can be solved so the whole getting the data and she's weather compass oh she's got a visit view on that is interesting her point is if we know what the problems are we as a community global society could actually solve them completely and it's an you know the more we make this a political and we say here is a problem and we have the data and we have the tools we have the people and capabilities to solve it that is where IBM Stan's tallest well I think with Watson use its focused on some big hairy problems to start with and now you're knocking off some some of the you know maybe more mundane but obviously significant to a marketer incredible that a company can start with the hardest most complicated problems the world has and actually make a difference my final question when I asked Mary this yesterday and she kind of talked about if she could have the magic Watson algorithm to just do something magical her and what would it be and she said I'll send Watson to the archives of all the weather data going back to World War two just compile it all and bring it back or addressability so the question is if you could have a Magic Watson algorithm for your chief marketing officer job what would you assign it to do like what would it be it's like first task well first of all reaction of course I'm a mom of six year olds an eight year old and so I want Watson to optimize my time no but a chief marketing officer I mean I think it really does go back to getting Watson's help in understanding how we use a dollar better how we use a dollar smarter how we affect more customers and and and connect connects with more customers in the way we you know we communicate the way we engage the way we've put our programs out that would be extraordinary and that's possible that's becoming more and more possible you know bringing science into the art of marketing I think will have great impact on what we're doing in also just the world I mean nobody wants to have you know maybe targeted ten times for something that's sold out well we asked one more time here so I got some more couple of questions because it's not getting the hook yet I gotta ask you see you mentioned Travelocity you know the web you've been through the web 1.2.0 yeah yeah so on so URLs and managing URLs was a great tracking mechanism from the old impressions weren't working and go to call to action get that look right there but now we different where that world is kind of like become critical infrastructure for managing technology since you're kind of geeking out with us here what's your view of the API economy because now apps don't use URLs they use tokens they use api's they use new push notification based stuff what sure how does api's change the marketing opportunities both right it's clearly changes the engineering environment and sort of opens up the world of possibilities in terms of who you partner with and how etc and I think it changes the marketing world too and entirely right you think about the API economy and the access you have to new ways of doing business new potential partnerships new ways of understanding data you know that that is absolutely you know at the fore of a lot of our thinking it might change the agency relationships to if they got to be more technical in changing as much as fast as companies are and they have to you know they are an extension they're your best you should be able to look in a room of agency and your team and not know who is who when you can tell who is who you have a problem and so agencies themselves have to become you know way more scientific harder-hitting faster pace and outcomes orient and somebody sees now are saying you know what pay me on outcomes I love that I love that mode to say we're in the boat with you pay me on outcome and the big s eyes are right there - absolutely yes Michele Palooza new chief marketing officer at IBM changing the game bring in some great mojo to IBM they're lucky to have you great conversations and thanks for coming on the cube live at Mandalay Bay this is silicon angles the cube I'm John four with Dave Volante be right back with more after this short break

(light upbeat music) >> Hey, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's day long coverage of Women in Data Science 2023. Live from Stanford University, I'm Lisa Martin. We've had some amazing conversations today with my wonderful co-host, as you've seen. Tracy Zhang joins me next for a very interesting and inspiring conversation. I know we've been bringing them to you, we're bringing you another one here. Dr. Irene Dankwa-Mullan joins us, the Chief Medical Officer at Marti Health, and a speaker at WIDS. Welcome, Irene, it's great to have you. >> Thank you. I'm delighted to be here. Thank you so much for this opportunity. >> So you have an MD and a Master of Public Health. Covid must have been an interesting time for you, with an MPH? >> Very much so. >> Yeah, talk a little bit about you, your background, and Marti Health? This is interesting. This is a brand new startup. This is a digital health equity startup. >> Yes, yes. So, I'll start with my story a little bit about myself. So I was actually born in Ghana. I finished high school there and came here for college. What would I say? After I finished my undergraduate, I went to medical school at Dartmouth and I always knew I wanted to go into public health as well as medicine. So my medical education was actually five years. I did the MPH and my medical degree, at the same time, I got my MPH from Yale School of Public Health. And after I finished, I trained in internal medicine, Johns Hopkins, and after that I went into public health. I am currently living in Maryland, so I'm in Bethesda, Maryland, and that's where I've been. And really enjoyed public health, community health, combining that aspect of sort of prevention and wellness and also working in making sure that we have community health clinics and safety net clinics. So a great experience there. I also had the privilege, after eight years in public health, I went to the National Institute of Health. >> Oh, wow. >> Where I basically worked in clinical research, basically on minority health and health disparities. So, I was in various leadership roles and helped to advance the science of health equity, working in collaboration with a lot of scientists and researchers at the NIH, really to advance the science. >> Where did your interest in health equity come from? Was there a defining moment when you were younger and you thought "There's a lot of inequities here, we have to do something about this." Where did that interest start? >> That's a great question. I think this influence was basically maybe from my upbringing as well as my family and also what I saw around me in Ghana, a lot of preventable diseases. I always say that my grandfather on my father's side was a great influence, inspired me and influenced my career because he was the only sibling, really, that went to school. And as a result, he was able to earn enough money and built, you know, a hospital. >> Oh wow. >> In their hometown. >> Oh my gosh! >> It started as a 20 bed hospital and now it's a 350 bed hospital. >> Oh, wow, that's amazing! >> In our hometown. And he knew that education was important and vital as well for wellbeing. And so he really inspired, you know, his work inspired me. And I remember in residency I went with a group of residents to this hospital in Ghana just to help over a summer break. So during a summer where we went and helped take care of the sick patients and actually learned, right? What it is like to care for so many patients and- >> Yeah. >> It was really a humbling experience. But that really inspired me. I think also being in this country. And when I came to the U.S. and really saw firsthand how patients are treated differently, based on their background or socioeconomic status. I did see firsthand, you know, that kind of unconscious bias. And, you know, drew me to the field of health disparities research and wanted to learn more and do more and contribute. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I was curious. Just when did the data science aspect tap in? Like when did you decide that, okay, data science is going to be a problem solving tool to like all the problems you just said? >> Yeah, that's a good question. So while I was at the NIH, I spent eight years there, and precision medicine was launched at that time and there was a lot of heightened interest in big data and how big data could help really revolutionize medicine and healthcare. And I got the opportunity to go, you know, there was an opportunity where they were looking for physicians or deputy chief health officer at IBM. And so I went to IBM, Watson Health was being formed as a new business unit, and I was one of the first deputy chief health officers really to lead the data and the science evidence. And that's where I realized, you know, we could really, you know, the technology in healthcare, there's been a lot of data that I think we are not really using or optimizing to make sure that we're taking care of our patients. >> Yeah. >> And so that's how I got into data science and making sure that we are building technologies using the right data to advance health equity. >> Right, so talk a little bit about health equity? We mentioned you're with Marti Health. You've been there for a short time, but Marti Health is also quite new, just a few months old. Digital health equity, talk about what Marti's vision is, what its mission is to really help start dialing down a lot of the disparities that you talked about that you see every day? >> Yeah, so, I've been so privileged. I recently joined Marti Health as their Chief Medical Officer, Chief Health Officer. It's a startup that is actually trying to promote a value-based care, also promote patient-centered care for patients that are experiencing a social disadvantage as a result of their race, ethnicity. And were starting to look at and focused on patients that have sickle cell disease. >> Okay. >> Because we realize that that's a population, you know, we know sickle cell disease is a genetic disorder. It impacts a lot of patients that are from areas that are endemic malaria. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And most of our patients here are African American, and when, you know, they suffer so much stigma and discrimination in the healthcare system and complications from their sickle cell disease. And so what we want to do that we feel like sickle cell is a litmus test for disparities. And we want to make sure that they get in patient-centered care. We want to make sure that we are leveraging data and the research that we've done in sickle cell disease, especially on the continent of Africa. >> Okay. >> And provide, promote better quality care for the patients. >> That's so inspiring. You know, we've heard so many great stories today. Were you able to watch the keynote this morning? >> Yes. >> I loved how it always inspires me. This conference is always, we were talking about this all day, how you walk in the Arrillaga Alumni Center here where this event is held every year, the vibe is powerful, it's positive, it's encouraging. >> Inspiring, yeah. >> Absolutely. >> Inspiring. >> Yeah, yeah. >> It's a movement, WIDS is a movement. They've created this community where you feel, I don't know, kind of superhuman. "Why can't I do this? Why not me?" We heard some great stories this morning about data science in terms of applications. You have a great application in terms of health equity. We heard about it in police violence. >> Yes. >> Which is an epidemic in this country for sure, as we know. This happens too often. How can we use data and data science as a facilitator of learning more about that, so that that can stop? I think that's so important for more people to understand all of the broad applications of data science, whether it's police violence or climate change or drug discovery or health inequities. >> Irene: Yeah. >> The potential, I think we're scratching the surface. But the potential is massive. >> Tracy: It is. >> And this is an event that really helps women and underrepresented minorities think, "Why not me? Why can't I get involved in that?" >> Yeah, and I always say we use data to make an make a lot of decisions. And especially in healthcare, we want to be careful about how we are using data because this is impacting the health and outcomes of our patients. And so science evidence is really critical, you know? We want to make sure that data is inclusive and we have quality data. >> Yes. >> And it's transparent. Our clinical trials, I always say are not always diverse and inclusive. And if that's going to form the evidence base or data points then we're doing more harm than good for our patients. And so data science, it's huge. I mean, we need a robust, responsible, trustworthy data science agenda. >> "Trust" you just brought up "trust." >> Yeah. >> I did. >> When we talk about data, we can't not talk about security and privacy and ethics but trust is table stakes. We have to be able to evaluate the data and trust in it. >> Exactly. >> And what it says and the story that can be told from it. So that trust factor is, I think, foundational to data science. >> We all see what happened with Covid, right? I mean, when the pandemic came out- >> Absolutely. >> Everyone wanted information. We wanted data, we wanted data we could trust. There was a lot of hesitancy even with the vaccine. >> Yeah. >> Right? And so public health, I mean, like you said, we had to do a lot of work making sure that the right information from the right data was being translated or conveyed to the communities. And so you are totally right. I mean, data and good information, relevant data is always key. >> Well- >> Is there any- Oh, sorry. >> Go ahead. >> Is there anything Marti Health is doing in like ensuring that you guys get the right data that you can put trust in it? >> Yes, absolutely. And so this is where we are, you know, part of it would be getting data, real world evidence data for patients who are being seen in the healthcare system with sickle cell disease, so that we can personalize the data to those patients and provide them with the right treatment, the right intervention that they need. And so part of it would be doing predictive modeling on some of the data, risk, stratifying risk, who in the sickle cell patient population is at risk of progressing. Or getting, you know, they all often get crisis, vaso-occlusive crisis because the cells, you know, the blood cell sickles and you want to avoid those chest crisis. And so part of what we'll be doing is, you know, using predictive modeling to target those at risk of the disease progressing, so that we can put in preventive measures. It's all about prevention. It's all about making sure that they're not being, you know, going to the hospital or the emergency room where sometimes they end up, you know, in pain and wanting pain medicine. And so. >> Do you see AI as being a critical piece in the transformation of healthcare, especially where inequities are concerned? >> Absolutely, and and when you say AI, I think it's responsible AI. >> Yes. >> And making sure that it's- >> Tracy: That's such a good point. >> Yeah. >> Very. >> With the right data, with relevant data, it's definitely key. I think there is so much data points that healthcare has, you know, in the healthcare space there's fiscal data, biological data, there's environmental data and we are not using it to the full capacity and full potential. >> Tracy: Yeah. >> And I think AI can do that if we do it carefully, and like I said, responsibly. >> That's a key word. You talked about trust, responsibility. Where data science, AI is concerned- >> Yeah. >> It has to be not an afterthought, it has to be intentional. >> Tracy: Exactly. >> And there needs to be a lot of education around it. Most people think, "Oh, AI is just for the technology," you know? >> Yeah, right. >> Goop. >> Yes. >> But I think we're all part, I mean everyone needs to make sure that we are collecting the right amount of data. I mean, I think we all play a part, right? >> We do. >> We do. >> In making sure that we have responsible AI, we have, you know, good data, quality data. And the data sciences is a multi-disciplinary field, I think. >> It is, which is one of the things that's exciting about it is it is multi-disciplinary. >> Tracy: Exactly. >> And so many of the people that we've talked to in data science have these very non-linear paths to get there, and so I think they bring such diversity of thought and backgrounds and experiences and thoughts and voices. That helps train the AI models with data that's more inclusive. >> Irene: Yes. >> Dropping down the volume on the bias that we know is there. To be successful, it has to. >> Definitely, I totally agree. >> What are some of the things, as we wrap up here, that you're looking forward to accomplishing as part of Marti Health? Like, maybe what's on the roadmap that you can share with us for Marti as it approaches the the second half of its first year? >> Yes, it's all about promoting health equity. It's all about, I mean, there's so much, well, I would start with, you know, part of the healthcare transformation is making sure that we are promoting care that's based on value and not volume, care that's based on good health outcomes, quality health outcomes, and not just on, you know, the quantity. And so Marti Health is trying to promote that value-based care. We are envisioning a world in which everyone can live their full life potential. Have the best health outcomes, and provide that patient-centered precision care. >> And we all want that. We all want that. We expect that precision and that personalized experience in our consumer lives, why not in healthcare? Well, thank you, Irene, for joining us on the program today. >> Thank you. >> Talking about what you're doing to really help drive the volume up on health equity, and raise awareness for the fact that there's a lot of inequities in there we have to fix. We have a long way to go. >> We have, yes. >> Lisa: But people like you are making an impact and we appreciate you joining theCUBE today and sharing what you're doing, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you- >> Thank you for having me here. >> Oh, our pleasure. For our guest and Tracy Zhang, this is Lisa Martin from WIDS 2023, the eighth Annual Women in Data Science Conference brought to you by theCUBE. Stick around, our show wrap will be in just a minute. Thanks for watching. (light upbeat music)

(upbeat music beginning) >> From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the Cube and ETR, this is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Making predictions about the future of enterprise tech is more challenging if you strive to lay down forecasts that are measurable. In other words, if you make a prediction, you should be able to look back a year later and say, with some degree of certainty, whether the prediction came true or not, with evidence to back that up. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights, powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we aim to do just that, with predictions about the macro IT spending environment, cost optimization, security, lots to talk about there, generative AI, cloud, and of course supercloud, blockchain adoption, data platforms, including commentary on Databricks, snowflake, and other key players, automation, events, and we may even have some bonus predictions around quantum computing, and perhaps some other areas. To make all this happen, we welcome back, for the third year in a row, my colleague and friend Eric Bradley from ETR. Eric, thanks for all you do for the community, and thanks for being part of this program. Again. >> I wouldn't miss it for the world. I always enjoy this one. Dave, good to see you. >> Yeah, so let me bring up this next slide and show you, actually come back to me if you would. I got to show the audience this. These are the inbounds that we got from PR firms starting in October around predictions. They know we do prediction posts. And so they'll send literally thousands and thousands of predictions from hundreds of experts in the industry, technologists, consultants, et cetera. And if you bring up the slide I can show you sort of the pattern that developed here. 40% of these thousands of predictions were from cyber. You had AI and data. If you combine those, it's still not close to cyber. Cost optimization was a big thing. Of course, cloud, some on DevOps, and software. Digital... Digital transformation got, you know, some lip service and SaaS. And then there was other, it's kind of around 2%. So quite remarkable, when you think about the focus on cyber, Eric. >> Yeah, there's two reasons why I think it makes sense, though. One, the cybersecurity companies have a lot of cash, so therefore the PR firms might be working a little bit harder for them than some of their other clients. (laughs) And then secondly, as you know, for multiple years now, when we do our macro survey, we ask, "What's your number one spending priority?" And again, it's security. It just isn't going anywhere. It just stays at the top. So I'm actually not that surprised by that little pie chart there, but I was shocked that SaaS was only 5%. You know, going back 10 years ago, that would've been the only thing anyone was talking about. >> Yeah. So true. All right, let's get into it. First prediction, we always start with kind of tech spending. Number one is tech spending increases between four and 5%. ETR has currently got it at 4.6% coming into 2023. This has been a consistently downward trend all year. We started, you know, much, much higher as we've been reporting. Bottom line is the fed is still in control. They're going to ease up on tightening, is the expectation, they're going to shoot for a soft landing. But you know, my feeling is this slingshot economy is going to continue, and it's going to continue to confound, whether it's supply chains or spending. The, the interesting thing about the ETR data, Eric, and I want you to comment on this, the largest companies are the most aggressive to cut. They're laying off, smaller firms are spending faster. They're actually growing at a much larger, faster rate as are companies in EMEA. And that's a surprise. That's outpacing the US and APAC. Chime in on this, Eric. >> Yeah, I was surprised on all of that. First on the higher level spending, we are definitely seeing it coming down, but the interesting thing here is headlines are making it worse. The huge research shop recently said 0% growth. We're coming in at 4.6%. And just so everyone knows, this is not us guessing, we asked 1,525 IT decision-makers what their budget growth will be, and they came in at 4.6%. Now there's a huge disparity, as you mentioned. The Fortune 500, global 2000, barely at 2% growth, but small, it's at 7%. So we're at a situation right now where the smaller companies are still playing a little bit of catch up on digital transformation, and they're spending money. The largest companies that have the most to lose from a recession are being more trepidatious, obviously. So they're playing a "Wait and see." And I hope we don't talk ourselves into a recession. Certainly the headlines and some of their research shops are helping it along. But another interesting comment here is, you know, energy and utilities used to be called an orphan and widow stock group, right? They are spending more than anyone, more than financials insurance, more than retail consumer. So right now it's being driven by mid, small, and energy and utilities. They're all spending like gangbusters, like nothing's happening. And it's the rest of everyone else that's being very cautious. >> Yeah, so very unpredictable right now. All right, let's go to number two. Cost optimization remains a major theme in 2023. We've been reporting on this. You've, we've shown a chart here. What's the primary method that your organization plans to use? You asked this question of those individuals that cited that they were going to reduce their spend and- >> Mhm. >> consolidating redundant vendors, you know, still leads the way, you know, far behind, cloud optimization is second, but it, but cloud continues to outpace legacy on-prem spending, no doubt. Somebody, it was, the guy's name was Alexander Feiglstorfer from Storyblok, sent in a prediction, said "All in one becomes extinct." Now, generally I would say I disagree with that because, you know, as we know over the years, suites tend to win out over, you know, individual, you know, point products. But I think what's going to happen is all in one is going to remain the norm for these larger companies that are cutting back. They want to consolidate redundant vendors, and the smaller companies are going to stick with that best of breed and be more aggressive and try to compete more effectively. What's your take on that? >> Yeah, I'm seeing much more consolidation in vendors, but also consolidation in functionality. We're seeing people building out new functionality, whether it's, we're going to talk about this later, so I don't want to steal too much of our thunder right now, but data and security also, we're seeing a functionality creep. So I think there's further consolidation happening here. I think niche solutions are going to be less likely, and platform solutions are going to be more likely in a spending environment where you want to reduce your vendors. You want to have one bill to pay, not 10. Another thing on this slide, real quick if I can before I move on, is we had a bunch of people write in and some of the answer options that aren't on this graph but did get cited a lot, unfortunately, is the obvious reduction in staff, hiring freezes, and delaying hardware, were three of the top write-ins. And another one was offshore outsourcing. So in addition to what we're seeing here, there were a lot of write-in options, and I just thought it would be important to state that, but essentially the cost optimization is by and far the highest one, and it's growing. So it's actually increased in our citations over the last year. >> And yeah, specifically consolidating redundant vendors. And so I actually thank you for bringing that other up, 'cause I had asked you, Eric, is there any evidence that repatriation is going on and we don't see it in the numbers, we don't see it even in the other, there was, I think very little or no mention of cloud repatriation, even though it might be happening in this in a smattering. >> Not a single mention, not one single mention. I went through it for you. Yep. Not one write-in. >> All right, let's move on. Number three, security leads M&A in 2023. Now you might say, "Oh, well that's a layup," but let me set this up Eric, because I didn't really do a great job with the slide. I hid the, what you've done, because you basically took, this is from the emerging technology survey with 1,181 responses from November. And what we did is we took Palo Alto and looked at the overlap in Palo Alto Networks accounts with these vendors that were showing on this chart. And Eric, I'm going to ask you to explain why we put a circle around OneTrust, but let me just set it up, and then have you comment on the slide and take, give us more detail. We're seeing private company valuations are off, you know, 10 to 40%. We saw a sneak, do a down round, but pretty good actually only down 12%. We've seen much higher down rounds. Palo Alto Networks we think is going to get busy. Again, they're an inquisitive company, they've been sort of quiet lately, and we think CrowdStrike, Cisco, Microsoft, Zscaler, we're predicting all of those will make some acquisitions and we're thinking that the targets are somewhere in this mess of security taxonomy. Other thing we're predicting AI meets cyber big time in 2023, we're going to probably going to see some acquisitions of those companies that are leaning into AI. We've seen some of that with Palo Alto. And then, you know, your comment to me, Eric, was "The RSA conference is going to be insane, hopping mad, "crazy this April," (Eric laughing) but give us your take on this data, and why the red circle around OneTrust? Take us back to that slide if you would, Alex. >> Sure. There's a few things here. First, let me explain what we're looking at. So because we separate the public companies and the private companies into two separate surveys, this allows us the ability to cross-reference that data. So what we're doing here is in our public survey, the tesis, everyone who cited some spending with Palo Alto, meaning they're a Palo Alto customer, we then cross-reference that with the private tech companies. Who also are they spending with? So what you're seeing here is an overlap. These companies that we have circled are doing the best in Palo Alto's accounts. Now, Palo Alto went and bought Twistlock a few years ago, which this data slide predicted, to be quite honest. And so I don't know if they necessarily are going to go after Snyk. Snyk, sorry. They already have something in that space. What they do need, however, is more on the authentication space. So I'm looking at OneTrust, with a 45% overlap in their overall net sentiment. That is a company that's already existing in their accounts and could be very synergistic to them. BeyondTrust as well, authentication identity. This is something that Palo needs to do to move more down that zero trust path. Now why did I pick Palo first? Because usually they're very inquisitive. They've been a little quiet lately. Secondly, if you look at the backdrop in the markets, the IPO freeze isn't going to last forever. Sooner or later, the IPO markets are going to open up, and some of these private companies are going to tap into public equity. In the meantime, however, cash funding on the private side is drying up. If they need another round, they're not going to get it, and they're certainly not going to get it at the valuations they were getting. So we're seeing valuations maybe come down where they're a touch more attractive, and Palo knows this isn't going to last forever. Cisco knows that, CrowdStrike, Zscaler, all these companies that are trying to make a push to become that vendor that you're consolidating in, around, they have a chance now, they have a window where they need to go make some acquisitions. And that's why I believe leading up to RSA, we're going to see some movement. I think it's going to pretty, a really exciting time in security right now. >> Awesome. Thank you. Great explanation. All right, let's go on the next one. Number four is, it relates to security. Let's stay there. Zero trust moves from hype to reality in 2023. Now again, you might say, "Oh yeah, that's a layup." A lot of these inbounds that we got are very, you know, kind of self-serving, but we always try to put some meat in the bone. So first thing we do is we pull out some commentary from, Eric, your roundtable, your insights roundtable. And we have a CISO from a global hospitality firm says, "For me that's the highest priority." He's talking about zero trust because it's the best ROI, it's the most forward-looking, and it enables a lot of the business transformation activities that we want to do. CISOs tell me that they actually can drive forward transformation projects that have zero trust, and because they can accelerate them, because they don't have to go through the hurdle of, you know, getting, making sure that it's secure. Second comment, zero trust closes that last mile where once you're authenticated, they open up the resource to you in a zero trust way. That's a CISO of a, and a managing director of a cyber risk services enterprise. Your thoughts on this? >> I can be here all day, so I'm going to try to be quick on this one. This is not a fluff piece on this one. There's a couple of other reasons this is happening. One, the board finally gets it. Zero trust at first was just a marketing hype term. Now the board understands it, and that's why CISOs are able to push through it. And what they finally did was redefine what it means. Zero trust simply means moving away from hardware security, moving towards software-defined security, with authentication as its base. The board finally gets that, and now they understand that this is necessary and it's being moved forward. The other reason it's happening now is hybrid work is here to stay. We weren't really sure at first, large companies were still trying to push people back to the office, and it's going to happen. The pendulum will swing back, but hybrid work's not going anywhere. By basically on our own data, we're seeing that 69% of companies expect remote and hybrid to be permanent, with only 30% permanent in office. Zero trust works for a hybrid environment. So all of that is the reason why this is happening right now. And going back to our previous prediction, this is why we're picking Palo, this is why we're picking Zscaler to make these acquisitions. Palo Alto needs to be better on the authentication side, and so does Zscaler. They're both fantastic on zero trust network access, but they need the authentication software defined aspect, and that's why we think this is going to happen. One last thing, in that CISO round table, I also had somebody say, "Listen, Zscaler is incredible. "They're doing incredibly well pervading the enterprise, "but their pricing's getting a little high," and they actually think Palo Alto is well-suited to start taking some of that share, if Palo can make one move. >> Yeah, Palo Alto's consolidation story is very strong. Here's my question and challenge. Do you and me, so I'm always hardcore about, okay, you've got to have evidence. I want to look back at these things a year from now and say, "Did we get it right? Yes or no?" If we got it wrong, we'll tell you we got it wrong. So how are we going to measure this? I'd say a couple things, and you can chime in. One is just the number of vendors talking about it. That's, but the marketing always leads the reality. So the second part of that is we got to get evidence from the buying community. Can you help us with that? >> (laughs) Luckily, that's what I do. I have a data company that asks thousands of IT decision-makers what they're adopting and what they're increasing spend on, as well as what they're decreasing spend on and what they're replacing. So I have snapshots in time over the last 11 years where I can go ahead and compare and contrast whether this adoption is happening or not. So come back to me in 12 months and I'll let you know. >> Now, you know, I will. Okay, let's bring up the next one. Number five, generative AI hits where the Metaverse missed. Of course everybody's talking about ChatGPT, we just wrote last week in a breaking analysis with John Furrier and Sarjeet Joha our take on that. We think 2023 does mark a pivot point as natural language processing really infiltrates enterprise tech just as Amazon turned the data center into an API. We think going forward, you're going to be interacting with technology through natural language, through English commands or other, you know, foreign language commands, and investors are lining up, all the VCs are getting excited about creating something competitive to ChatGPT, according to (indistinct) a hundred million dollars gets you a seat at the table, gets you into the game. (laughing) That's before you have to start doing promotion. But he thinks that's what it takes to actually create a clone or something equivalent. We've seen stuff from, you know, the head of Facebook's, you know, AI saying, "Oh, it's really not that sophisticated, ChatGPT, "it's kind of like IBM Watson, it's great engineering, "but you know, we've got more advanced technology." We know Google's working on some really interesting stuff. But here's the thing. ETR just launched this survey for the February survey. It's in the field now. We circle open AI in this category. They weren't even in the survey, Eric, last quarter. So 52% of the ETR survey respondents indicated a positive sentiment toward open AI. I added up all the sort of different bars, we could double click on that. And then I got this inbound from Scott Stevenson of Deep Graham. He said "AI is recession-proof." I don't know if that's the case, but it's a good quote. So bring this back up and take us through this. Explain this chart for us, if you would. >> First of all, I like Scott's quote better than the Facebook one. I think that's some sour grapes. Meta just spent an insane amount of money on the Metaverse and that's a dud. Microsoft just spent money on open AI and it is hot, undoubtedly hot. We've only been in the field with our current ETS survey for a week. So my caveat is it's preliminary data, but I don't care if it's preliminary data. (laughing) We're getting a sneak peek here at what is the number one net sentiment and mindshare leader in the entire machine-learning AI sector within a week. It's beating Data- >> 600. 600 in. >> It's beating Databricks. And we all know Databricks is a huge established enterprise company, not only in machine-learning AI, but it's in the top 10 in the entire survey. We have over 400 vendors in this survey. It's number eight overall, already. In a week. This is not hype. This is real. And I could go on the NLP stuff for a while. Not only here are we seeing it in open AI and machine-learning and AI, but we're seeing NLP in security. It's huge in email security. It's completely transforming that area. It's one of the reasons I thought Palo might take Abnormal out. They're doing such a great job with NLP in this email side, and also in the data prep tools. NLP is going to take out data prep tools. If we have time, I'll discuss that later. But yeah, this is, to me this is a no-brainer, and we're already seeing it in the data. >> Yeah, John Furrier called, you know, the ChatGPT introduction. He said it reminded him of the Netscape moment, when we all first saw Netscape Navigator and went, "Wow, it really could be transformative." All right, number six, the cloud expands to supercloud as edge computing accelerates and CloudFlare is a big winner in 2023. We've reported obviously on cloud, multi-cloud, supercloud and CloudFlare, basically saying what multi-cloud should have been. We pulled this quote from Atif Kahn, who is the founder and CTO of Alkira, thanks, one of the inbounds, thank you. "In 2023, highly distributed IT environments "will become more the norm "as organizations increasingly deploy hybrid cloud, "multi-cloud and edge settings..." Eric, from one of your round tables, "If my sources from edge computing are coming "from the cloud, that means I have my workloads "running in the cloud. "There is no one better than CloudFlare," That's a senior director of IT architecture at a huge financial firm. And then your analysis shows CloudFlare really growing in pervasion, that sort of market presence in the dataset, dramatically, to near 20%, leading, I think you had told me that they're even ahead of Google Cloud in terms of momentum right now. >> That was probably the biggest shock to me in our January 2023 tesis, which covers the public companies in the cloud computing sector. CloudFlare has now overtaken GCP in overall spending, and I was shocked by that. It's already extremely pervasive in networking, of course, for the edge networking side, and also in security. This is the number one leader in SaaSi, web access firewall, DDoS, bot protection, by your definition of supercloud, which we just did a couple of weeks ago, and I really enjoyed that by the way Dave, I think CloudFlare is the one that fits your definition best, because it's bringing all of these aspects together, and most importantly, it's cloud agnostic. It does not need to rely on Azure or AWS to do this. It has its own cloud. So I just think it's, when we look at your definition of supercloud, CloudFlare is the poster child. >> You know, what's interesting about that too, is a lot of people are poo-pooing CloudFlare, "Ah, it's, you know, really kind of not that sophisticated." "You don't have as many tools," but to your point, you're can have those tools in the cloud, Cloudflare's doing serverless on steroids, trying to keep things really simple, doing a phenomenal job at, you know, various locations around the world. And they're definitely one to watch. Somebody put them on my radar (laughing) a while ago and said, "Dave, you got to do a breaking analysis on CloudFlare." And so I want to thank that person. I can't really name them, 'cause they work inside of a giant hyperscaler. But- (Eric laughing) (Dave chuckling) >> Real quickly, if I can from a competitive perspective too, who else is there? They've already taken share from Akamai, and Fastly is their really only other direct comp, and they're not there. And these guys are in poll position and they're the only game in town right now. I just, I don't see it slowing down. >> I thought one of your comments from your roundtable I was reading, one of the folks said, you know, CloudFlare, if my workloads are in the cloud, they are, you know, dominant, they said not as strong with on-prem. And so Akamai is doing better there. I'm like, "Okay, where would you want to be?" (laughing) >> Yeah, which one of those two would you rather be? >> Right? Anyway, all right, let's move on. Number seven, blockchain continues to look for a home in the enterprise, but devs will slowly begin to adopt in 2023. You know, blockchains have got a lot of buzz, obviously crypto is, you know, the killer app for blockchain. Senior IT architect in financial services from your, one of your insight roundtables said quote, "For enterprises to adopt a new technology, "there have to be proven turnkey solutions. "My experience in talking with my peers are, "blockchain is still an open-source component "where you have to build around it." Now I want to thank Ravi Mayuram, who's the CTO of Couchbase sent in, you know, one of the predictions, he said, "DevOps will adopt blockchain, specifically Ethereum." And he referenced actually in his email to me, Solidity, which is the programming language for Ethereum, "will be in every DevOps pro's playbook, "mirroring the boom in machine-learning. "Newer programming languages like Solidity "will enter the toolkits of devs." His point there, you know, Solidity for those of you don't know, you know, Bitcoin is not programmable. Solidity, you know, came out and that was their whole shtick, and they've been improving that, and so forth. But it, Eric, it's true, it really hasn't found its home despite, you know, the potential for smart contracts. IBM's pushing it, VMware has had announcements, and others, really hasn't found its way in the enterprise yet. >> Yeah, and I got to be honest, I don't think it's going to, either. So when we did our top trends series, this was basically chosen as an anti-prediction, I would guess, that it just continues to not gain hold. And the reason why was that first comment, right? It's very much a niche solution that requires a ton of custom work around it. You can't just plug and play it. And at the end of the day, let's be very real what this technology is, it's a database ledger, and we already have database ledgers in the enterprise. So why is this a priority to move to a different database ledger? It's going to be very niche cases. I like the CTO comment from Couchbase about it being adopted by DevOps. I agree with that, but it has to be a DevOps in a very specific use case, and a very sophisticated use case in financial services, most likely. And that's not across the entire enterprise. So I just think it's still going to struggle to get its foothold for a little bit longer, if ever. >> Great, thanks. Okay, let's move on. Number eight, AWS Databricks, Google Snowflake lead the data charge with Microsoft. Keeping it simple. So let's unpack this a little bit. This is the shared accounts peer position for, I pulled data platforms in for analytics, machine-learning and AI and database. So I could grab all these accounts or these vendors and see how they compare in those three sectors. Analytics, machine-learning and database. Snowflake and Databricks, you know, they're on a crash course, as you and I have talked about. They're battling to be the single source of truth in analytics. They're, there's going to be a big focus. They're already started. It's going to be accelerated in 2023 on open formats. Iceberg, Python, you know, they're all the rage. We heard about Iceberg at Snowflake Summit, last summer or last June. Not a lot of people had heard of it, but of course the Databricks crowd, who knows it well. A lot of other open source tooling. There's a company called DBT Labs, which you're going to talk about in a minute. George Gilbert put them on our radar. We just had Tristan Handy, the CEO of DBT labs, on at supercloud last week. They are a new disruptor in data that's, they're essentially making, they're API-ifying, if you will, KPIs inside the data warehouse and dramatically simplifying that whole data pipeline. So really, you know, the ETL guys should be shaking in their boots with them. Coming back to the slide. Google really remains focused on BigQuery adoption. Customers have complained to me that they would like to use Snowflake with Google's AI tools, but they're being forced to go to BigQuery. I got to ask Google about that. AWS continues to stitch together its bespoke data stores, that's gone down that "Right tool for the right job" path. David Foyer two years ago said, "AWS absolutely is going to have to solve that problem." We saw them start to do it in, at Reinvent, bringing together NoETL between Aurora and Redshift, and really trying to simplify those worlds. There's going to be more of that. And then Microsoft, they're just making it cheap and easy to use their stuff, you know, despite some of the complaints that we hear in the community, you know, about things like Cosmos, but Eric, your take? >> Yeah, my concern here is that Snowflake and Databricks are fighting each other, and it's allowing AWS and Microsoft to kind of catch up against them, and I don't know if that's the right move for either of those two companies individually, Azure and AWS are building out functionality. Are they as good? No they're not. The other thing to remember too is that AWS and Azure get paid anyway, because both Databricks and Snowflake run on top of 'em. So (laughing) they're basically collecting their toll, while these two fight it out with each other, and they build out functionality. I think they need to stop focusing on each other, a little bit, and think about the overall strategy. Now for Databricks, we know they came out first as a machine-learning AI tool. They were known better for that spot, and now they're really trying to play catch-up on that data storage compute spot, and inversely for Snowflake, they were killing it with the compute separation from storage, and now they're trying to get into the MLAI spot. I actually wouldn't be surprised to see them make some sort of acquisition. Frank Slootman has been a little bit quiet, in my opinion there. The other thing to mention is your comment about DBT Labs. If we look at our emerging technology survey, last survey when this came out, DBT labs, number one leader in that data integration space, I'm going to just pull it up real quickly. It looks like they had a 33% overall net sentiment to lead data analytics integration. So they are clearly growing, it's fourth straight survey consecutively that they've grown. The other name we're seeing there a little bit is Cribl, but DBT labs is by far the number one player in this space. >> All right. Okay, cool. Moving on, let's go to number nine. With Automation mixer resurgence in 2023, we're showing again data. The x axis is overlap or presence in the dataset, and the vertical axis is shared net score. Net score is a measure of spending momentum. As always, you've seen UI path and Microsoft Power Automate up until the right, that red line, that 40% line is generally considered elevated. UI path is really separating, creating some distance from Automation Anywhere, they, you know, previous quarters they were much closer. Microsoft Power Automate came on the scene in a big way, they loom large with this "Good enough" approach. I will say this, I, somebody sent me a results of a (indistinct) survey, which showed UiPath actually had more mentions than Power Automate, which was surprising, but I think that's not been the case in the ETR data set. We're definitely seeing a shift from back office to front soft office kind of workloads. Having said that, software testing is emerging as a mainstream use case, we're seeing ML and AI become embedded in end-to-end automations, and low-code is serving the line of business. And so this, we think, is going to increasingly have appeal to organizations in the coming year, who want to automate as much as possible and not necessarily, we've seen a lot of layoffs in tech, and people... You're going to have to fill the gaps with automation. That's a trend that's going to continue. >> Yep, agreed. At first that comment about Microsoft Power Automate having less citations than UiPath, that's shocking to me. I'm looking at my chart right here where Microsoft Power Automate was cited by over 60% of our entire survey takers, and UiPath at around 38%. Now don't get me wrong, 38% pervasion's fantastic, but you know you're not going to beat an entrenched Microsoft. So I don't really know where that comment came from. So UiPath, looking at it alone, it's doing incredibly well. It had a huge rebound in its net score this last survey. It had dropped going through the back half of 2022, but we saw a big spike in the last one. So it's got a net score of over 55%. A lot of people citing adoption and increasing. So that's really what you want to see for a name like this. The problem is that just Microsoft is doing its playbook. At the end of the day, I'm going to do a POC, why am I going to pay more for UiPath, or even take on another separate bill, when we know everyone's consolidating vendors, if my license already includes Microsoft Power Automate? It might not be perfect, it might not be as good, but what I'm hearing all the time is it's good enough, and I really don't want another invoice. >> Right. So how does UiPath, you know, and Automation Anywhere, how do they compete with that? Well, the way they compete with it is they got to have a better product. They got a product that's 10 times better. You know, they- >> Right. >> they're not going to compete based on where the lowest cost, Microsoft's got that locked up, or where the easiest to, you know, Microsoft basically give it away for free, and that's their playbook. So that's, you know, up to UiPath. UiPath brought on Rob Ensslin, I've interviewed him. Very, very capable individual, is now Co-CEO. So he's kind of bringing that adult supervision in, and really tightening up the go to market. So, you know, we know this company has been a rocket ship, and so getting some control on that and really getting focused like a laser, you know, could be good things ahead there for that company. Okay. >> One of the problems, if I could real quick Dave, is what the use cases are. When we first came out with RPA, everyone was super excited about like, "No, UiPath is going to be great for super powerful "projects, use cases." That's not what RPA is being used for. As you mentioned, it's being used for mundane tasks, so it's not automating complex things, which I think UiPath was built for. So if you were going to get UiPath, and choose that over Microsoft, it's going to be 'cause you're doing it for more powerful use case, where it is better. But the problem is that's not where the enterprise is using it. The enterprise are using this for base rote tasks, and simply, Microsoft Power Automate can do that. >> Yeah, it's interesting. I've had people on theCube that are both Microsoft Power Automate customers and UiPath customers, and I've asked them, "Well you know, "how do you differentiate between the two?" And they've said to me, "Look, our users and personal productivity users, "they like Power Automate, "they can use it themselves, and you know, "it doesn't take a lot of, you know, support on our end." The flip side is you could do that with UiPath, but like you said, there's more of a focus now on end-to-end enterprise automation and building out those capabilities. So it's increasingly a value play, and that's going to be obviously the challenge going forward. Okay, my last one, and then I think you've got some bonus ones. Number 10, hybrid events are the new category. Look it, if I can get a thousand inbounds that are largely self-serving, I can do my own here, 'cause we're in the events business. (Eric chuckling) Here's the prediction though, and this is a trend we're seeing, the number of physical events is going to dramatically increase. That might surprise people, but most of the big giant events are going to get smaller. The exception is AWS with Reinvent, I think Snowflake's going to continue to grow. So there are examples of physical events that are growing, but generally, most of the big ones are getting smaller, and there's going to be many more smaller intimate regional events and road shows. These micro-events, they're going to be stitched together. Digital is becoming a first class citizen, so people really got to get their digital acts together, and brands are prioritizing earned media, and they're beginning to build their own news networks, going direct to their customers. And so that's a trend we see, and I, you know, we're right in the middle of it, Eric, so you know we're going to, you mentioned RSA, I think that's perhaps going to be one of those crazy ones that continues to grow. It's shrunk, and then it, you know, 'cause last year- >> Yeah, it did shrink. >> right, it was the last one before the pandemic, and then they sort of made another run at it last year. It was smaller but it was very vibrant, and I think this year's going to be huge. Global World Congress is another one, we're going to be there end of Feb. That's obviously a big big show, but in general, the brands and the technology vendors, even Oracle is going to scale down. I don't know about Salesforce. We'll see. You had a couple of bonus predictions. Quantum and maybe some others? Bring us home. >> Yeah, sure. I got a few more. I think we touched upon one, but I definitely think the data prep tools are facing extinction, unfortunately, you know, the Talons Informatica is some of those names. The problem there is that the BI tools are kind of including data prep into it already. You know, an example of that is Tableau Prep Builder, and then in addition, Advanced NLP is being worked in as well. ThoughtSpot, Intelius, both often say that as their selling point, Tableau has Ask Data, Click has Insight Bot, so you don't have to really be intelligent on data prep anymore. A regular business user can just self-query, using either the search bar, or even just speaking into what it needs, and these tools are kind of doing the data prep for it. I don't think that's a, you know, an out in left field type of prediction, but it's the time is nigh. The other one I would also state is that I think knowledge graphs are going to break through this year. Neo4j in our survey is growing in pervasion in Mindshare. So more and more people are citing it, AWS Neptune's getting its act together, and we're seeing that spending intentions are growing there. Tiger Graph is also growing in our survey sample. I just think that the time is now for knowledge graphs to break through, and if I had to do one more, I'd say real-time streaming analytics moves from the very, very rich big enterprises to downstream, to more people are actually going to be moving towards real-time streaming, again, because the data prep tools and the data pipelines have gotten easier to use, and I think the ROI on real-time streaming is obviously there. So those are three that didn't make the cut, but I thought deserved an honorable mention. >> Yeah, I'm glad you did. Several weeks ago, we did an analyst prediction roundtable, if you will, a cube session power panel with a number of data analysts and that, you know, streaming, real-time streaming was top of mind. So glad you brought that up. Eric, as always, thank you very much. I appreciate the time you put in beforehand. I know it's been crazy, because you guys are wrapping up, you know, the last quarter survey in- >> Been a nuts three weeks for us. (laughing) >> job. I love the fact that you're doing, you know, the ETS survey now, I think it's quarterly now, right? Is that right? >> Yep. >> Yep. So that's phenomenal. >> Four times a year. I'll be happy to jump on with you when we get that done. I know you were really impressed with that last time. >> It's unbelievable. This is so much data at ETR. Okay. Hey, that's a wrap. Thanks again. >> Take care Dave. Good seeing you. >> All right, many thanks to our team here, Alex Myerson as production, he manages the podcast force. Ken Schiffman as well is a critical component of our East Coast studio. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hoof is our editor-in-chief. He's at siliconangle.com. He's just a great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these episodes that are available as podcasts, wherever you listen, podcast is doing great. Just search "Breaking analysis podcast." Really appreciate you guys listening. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com, or you can email me directly if you want to get in touch, david.vellante@siliconangle.com. That's how I got all these. I really appreciate it. I went through every single one with a yellow highlighter. It took some time, (laughing) but I appreciate it. You could DM me at dvellante, or comment on our LinkedIn post and please check out etr.ai. Its data is amazing. Best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCube Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis." (upbeat music beginning) (upbeat music ending)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> A decade of big data investments combined with cloud scale, the rise of much more cost effective processing power. And the introduction of advanced tooling has catapulted machine intelligence to the forefront of technology investments. No matter what job you have, your operation will be AI powered within five years and machines may actually even be doing your job. Artificial intelligence is being infused into applications, infrastructure, equipment, and virtually every aspect of our lives. AI is proving to be extremely helpful at things like controlling vehicles, speeding up medical diagnoses, processing language, advancing science, and generally raising the stakes on what it means to apply technology for business advantage. But business value realization has been a challenge for most organizations due to lack of skills, complexity of programming models, immature technology integration, sizable upfront investments, ethical concerns, and lack of business alignment. Mastering AI technology will not be a requirement for success in our view. However, figuring out how and where to apply AI to your business will be crucial. That means understanding the business case, picking the right technology partner, experimenting in bite-sized chunks, and quickly identifying winners to double down on from an investment standpoint. Hello and welcome to this week's Wiki-bond CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we update you on the state of AI and what it means for the competition. And to do so, we invite into our studios Andy Thurai of Constellation Research. Andy covers AI deeply. He knows the players, he knows the pitfalls of AI investment, and he's a collaborator. Andy, great to have you on the program. Thanks for coming into our CUBE studios. >> Thanks for having me on. >> You're very welcome. Okay, let's set the table with a premise and a series of assertions we want to test with Andy. I'm going to lay 'em out. And then Andy, I'd love for you to comment. So, first of all, according to McKinsey, AI adoption has more than doubled since 2017, but only 10% of organizations report seeing significant ROI. That's a BCG and MIT study. And part of that challenge of AI is it requires data, is requires good data, data proficiency, which is not trivial, as you know. Firms that can master both data and AI, we believe are going to have a competitive advantage this decade. Hyperscalers, as we show you dominate AI and ML. We'll show you some data on that. And having said that, there's plenty of room for specialists. They need to partner with the cloud vendors for go to market productivity. And finally, organizations increasingly have to put data and AI at the center of their enterprises. And to do that, most are going to rely on vendor R&D to leverage AI and ML. In other words, Andy, they're going to buy it and apply it as opposed to build it. What are your thoughts on that setup and that premise? >> Yeah, I see that a lot happening in the field, right? So first of all, the only 10% of realizing a return on investment. That's so true because we talked about this earlier, the most companies are still in the innovation cycle. So they're trying to innovate and see what they can do to apply. A lot of these times when you look at the solutions, what they come up with or the models they create, the experimentation they do, most times they don't even have a good business case to solve, right? So they just experiment and then they figure it out, "Oh my God, this model is working. Can we do something to solve it?" So it's like you found a hammer and then you're trying to find the needle kind of thing, right? That never works. >> 'Cause it's cool or whatever it is. >> It is, right? So that's why, I always advise, when they come to me and ask me things like, "Hey, what's the right way to do it? What is the secret sauce?" And, we talked about this. The first thing I tell them is, "Find out what is the business case that's having the most amount of problems, that that can be solved using some of the AI use cases," right? Not all of them can be solved. Even after you experiment, do the whole nine yards, spend millions of dollars on that, right? And later on you make it efficient only by saving maybe $50,000 for the company or a $100,000 for the company, is it really even worth the experiment, right? So you got to start with the saying that, you know, where's the base for this happening? Where's the need? What's a business use case? It doesn't have to be about cost efficient and saving money in the existing processes. It could be a new thing. You want to bring in a new revenue stream, but figure out what is a business use case, how much money potentially I can make off of that. The same way that start-ups go after. Right? >> Yeah. Pretty straightforward. All right, let's take a look at where ML and AI fit relative to the other hot sectors of the ETR dataset. This XY graph shows net score spending velocity in the vertical axis and presence in the survey, they call it sector perversion for the October survey, the January survey's in the field. Then that squiggly line on ML/AI represents the progression. Since the January 21 survey, you can see the downward trajectory. And we position ML and AI relative to the other big four hot sectors or big three, including, ML/AI is four. Containers, cloud and RPA. These have consistently performed above that magic 40% red dotted line for most of the past two years. Anything above 40%, we think is highly elevated. And we've just included analytics and big data for context and relevant adjacentness, if you will. Now note that green arrow moving toward, you know, the 40% mark on ML/AI. I got a glimpse of the January survey, which is in the field. It's got more than a thousand responses already, and it's trending up for the current survey. So Andy, what do you make of this downward trajectory over the past seven quarters and the presumed uptick in the coming months? >> So one of the things you have to keep in mind is when the pandemic happened, it's about survival mode, right? So when somebody's in a survival mode, what happens, the luxury and the innovations get cut. That's what happens. And this is exactly what happened in the situation. So as you can see in the last seven quarters, which is almost dating back close to pandemic, everybody was trying to keep their operations alive, especially digital operations. How do I keep the lights on? That's the most important thing for them. So while the numbers spent on AI, ML is less overall, I still think the AI ML to spend to sort of like a employee experience or the IT ops, AI ops, ML ops, as we talked about, some of those areas actually went up. There are companies, we talked about it, Atlassian had a lot of platform issues till the amount of money people are spending on that is exorbitant and simply because they are offering the solution that was not available other way. So there are companies out there, you can take AoPS or incident management for that matter, right? A lot of companies have a digital insurance, they don't know how to properly manage it. How do you find an intern solve it immediately? That's all using AI ML and some of those areas actually growing unbelievable, the companies in that area. >> So this is a really good point. If you can you bring up that chart again, what Andy's saying is a lot of the companies in the ETR taxonomy that are doing things with AI might not necessarily show up in a granular fashion. And I think the other point I would make is, these are still highly elevated numbers. If you put on like storage and servers, they would read way, way down the list. And, look in the pandemic, we had to deal with work from home, we had to re-architect the network, we had to worry about security. So those are really good points that you made there. Let's, unpack this a little bit and look at the ML AI sector and the ETR data and specifically at the players and get Andy to comment on this. This chart here shows the same x y dimensions, and it just notes some of the players that are specifically have services and products that people spend money on, that CIOs and IT buyers can comment on. So the table insert shows how the companies are plotted, it's net score, and then the ends in the survey. And Andy, the hyperscalers are dominant, as you can see. You see Databricks there showing strong as a specialist, and then you got to pack a six or seven in there. And then Oracle and IBM, kind of the big whales of yester year are in the mix. And to your point, companies like Salesforce that you mentioned to me offline aren't in that mix, but they do a lot in AI. But what are your takeaways from that data? >> If you could put the slide back on please. I want to make quick comments on a couple of those. So the first one is, it's surprising other hyperscalers, right? As you and I talked about this earlier, AWS is more about logo blocks. We discussed that, right? >> Like what? Like a SageMaker as an example. >> We'll give you all the components what do you need. Whether it's MLOps component or whether it's, CodeWhisperer that we talked about, or a oral platform or data or data, whatever you want. They'll give you the blocks and then you'll build things on top of it, right? But Google took a different way. Matter of fact, if we did those numbers a few years ago, Google would've been number one because they did a lot of work with their acquisition of DeepMind and other things. They're way ahead of the pack when it comes to AI for longest time. Now, I think Microsoft's move of partnering and taking a huge competitor out would open the eyes is unbelievable. You saw that everybody is talking about chat GPI, right? And the open AI tool and ChatGPT rather. Remember as Warren Buffet is saying that, when my laundry lady comes and talk to me about stock market, it's heated up. So that's how it's heated up. Everybody's using ChatGPT. What that means is at the end of the day is they're creating, it's still in beta, keep in mind. It's not fully... >> Can you play with it a little bit? >> I have a little bit. >> I have, but it's good and it's not good. You know what I mean? >> Look, so at the end of the day, you take the massive text of all the available text in the world today, mass them all together. And then you ask a question, it's going to basically search through that and figure it out and answer that back. Yes, it's good. But again, as we discussed, if there's no business use case of what problem you're going to solve. This is building hype. But then eventually they'll figure out, for example, all your chats, online chats, could be aided by your AI chat bots, which is already there, which is not there at that level. This could build help that, right? Or the other thing we talked about is one of the areas where I'm more concerned about is that it is able to produce equal enough original text at the level that humans can produce, for example, ChatGPT or the equal enough, the large language transformer can help you write stories as of Shakespeare wrote it. Pretty close to it. It'll learn from that. So when it comes down to it, talk about creating messages, articles, blogs, especially during political seasons, not necessarily just in US, but anywhere for that matter. If people are able to produce at the emission speed and throw it at the consumers and confuse them, the elections can be won, the governments can be toppled. >> Because to your point about chatbots is chatbots have obviously, reduced the number of bodies that you need to support chat. But they haven't solved the problem of serving consumers. Most of the chat bots are conditioned response, which of the following best describes your problem? >> The current chatbot. >> Yeah. Hey, did we solve your problem? No. Is the answer. So that has some real potential. But if you could bring up that slide again, Ken, I mean you've got the hyperscalers that are dominant. You talked about Google and Microsoft is ubiquitous, they seem to be dominant in every ETR category. But then you have these other specialists. How do those guys compete? And maybe you could even, cite some of the guys that you know, how do they compete with the hyperscalers? What's the key there for like a C3 ai or some of the others that are on there? >> So I've spoken with at least two of the CEOs of the smaller companies that you have on the list. One of the things they're worried about is that if they continue to operate independently without being part of hyperscaler, either the hyperscalers will develop something to compete against them full scale, or they'll become irrelevant. Because at the end of the day, look, cloud is dominant. Not many companies are going to do like AI modeling and training and deployment the whole nine yards by independent by themselves. They're going to depend on one of the clouds, right? So if they're already going to be in the cloud, by taking them out to come to you, it's going to be extremely difficult issue to solve. So all these companies are going and saying, "You know what? We need to be in hyperscalers." For example, you could have looked at DataRobot recently, they made announcements, Google and AWS, and they are all over the place. So you need to go where the customers are. Right? >> All right, before we go on, I want to share some other data from ETR and why people adopt AI and get your feedback. So the data historically shows that feature breadth and technical capabilities were the main decision points for AI adoption, historically. What says to me that it's too much focus on technology. In your view, is that changing? Does it have to change? Will it change? >> Yes. Simple answer is yes. So here's the thing. The data you're speaking from is from previous years. >> Yes >> I can guarantee you, if you look at the latest data that's coming in now, those two will be a secondary and tertiary points. The number one would be about ROI. And how do I achieve? I've spent ton of money on all of my experiments. This is the same thing theme I'm seeing across when talking to everybody who's spending money on AI. I've spent so much money on it. When can I get it live in production? How much, how can I quickly get it? Because you know, the board is breathing down their neck. You already spend this much money. Show me something that's valuable. So the ROI is going to become, take it from me, I'm predicting this for 2023, that's going to become number one. >> Yeah, and if people focus on it, they'll figure it out. Okay. Let's take a look at some of the top players that won, some of the names we just looked at and double click on that and break down their spending profile. So the chart here shows the net score, how net score is calculated. So pay attention to the second set of bars that Databricks, who was pretty prominent on the previous chart. And we've annotated the colors. The lime green is, we're bringing the platform in new. The forest green is, we're going to spend 6% or more relative to last year. And the gray is flat spending. The pinkish is our spending's going to be down on AI and ML, 6% or worse. And the red is churn. So you don't want big red. You subtract the reds from the greens and you get net score, which is shown by those blue dots that you see there. So AWS has the highest net score and very little churn. I mean, single low single digit churn. But notably, you see Databricks and DataRobot are next in line within Microsoft and Google also, they've got very low churn. Andy, what are your thoughts on this data? >> So a couple of things that stands out to me. Most of them are in line with my conversation with customers. Couple of them stood out to me on how bad IBM Watson is doing. >> Yeah, bring that back up if you would. Let's take a look at that. IBM Watson is the far right and the red, that bright red is churning and again, you want low red here. Why do you think that is? >> Well, so look, IBM has been in the forefront of innovating things for many, many years now, right? And over the course of years we talked about this, they moved from a product innovation centric company into more of a services company. And over the years they were making, as at one point, you know that they were making about majority of that money from services. Now things have changed Arvind has taken over, he came from research. So he's doing a great job of trying to reinvent themselves as a company. But it's going to have a long way to catch up. IBM Watson, if you think about it, that played what, jeopardy and chess years ago, like 15 years ago? >> It was jaw dropping when you first saw it. And then they weren't able to commercialize that. >> Yeah. >> And you're making a good point. When Gerstner took over IBM at the time, John Akers wanted to split the company up. He wanted to have a database company, he wanted to have a storage company. Because that's where the industry trend was, Gerstner said no, he came from AMEX, right? He came from American Express. He said, "No, we're going to have a single throat to choke for the customer." They bought PWC for relatively short money. I think it was $15 billion, completely transformed and I would argue saved IBM. But the trade off was, it sort of took them out of product leadership. And so from Gerstner to Palmisano to Remedi, it was really a services led company. And I think Arvind is really bringing it back to a product company with strong consulting. I mean, that's one of the pillars. And so I think that's, they've got a strong story in data and AI. They just got to sort of bring it together and better. Bring that chart up one more time. I want to, the other point is Oracle, Oracle sort of has the dominant lock-in for mission critical database and they're sort of applying AI there. But to your point, they're really not an AI company in the sense that they're taking unstructured data and doing sort of new things. It's really about how to make Oracle better, right? >> Well, you got to remember, Oracle is about database for the structure data. So in yesterday's world, they were dominant database. But you know, if you are to start storing like videos and texts and audio and other things, and then start doing search of vector search and all that, Oracle is not necessarily the database company of choice. And they're strongest thing being apps and building AI into the apps? They are kind of surviving in that area. But again, I wouldn't name them as an AI company, right? But the other thing that that surprised me in that list, what you showed me is yes, AWS is number one. >> Bring that back up if you would, Ken. >> AWS is number one as you, it should be. But what what actually caught me by surprise is how DataRobot is holding, you know? I mean, look at that. The either net new addition and or expansion, DataRobot seem to be doing equally well, even better than Microsoft and Google. That surprises me. >> DataRobot's, and again, this is a function of spending momentum. So remember from the previous chart that Microsoft and Google, much, much larger than DataRobot. DataRobot more niche. But with spending velocity and has always had strong spending velocity, despite some of the recent challenges, organizational challenges. And then you see these other specialists, H2O.ai, Anaconda, dataiku, little bit of red showing there C3.ai. But these again, to stress are the sort of specialists other than obviously the hyperscalers. These are the specialists in AI. All right, so we hit the bigger names in the sector. Now let's take a look at the emerging technology companies. And one of the gems of the ETR dataset is the emerging technology survey. It's called ETS. They used to just do it like twice a year. It's now run four times a year. I just discovered it kind of mid-2022. And it's exclusively focused on private companies that are potential disruptors, they might be M&A candidates and if they've raised enough money, they could be acquirers of companies as well. So Databricks would be an example. They've made a number of investments in companies. SNEAK would be another good example. Companies that are private, but they're buyers, they hope to go IPO at some point in time. So this chart here, shows the emerging companies in the ML AI sector of the ETR dataset. So the dimensions of this are similar, they're net sentiment on the Y axis and mind share on the X axis. Basically, the ETS study measures awareness on the x axis and intent to do something with, evaluate or implement or not, on that vertical axis. So it's like net score on the vertical where negatives are subtracted from the positives. And again, mind share is vendor awareness. That's the horizontal axis. Now that inserted table shows net sentiment and the ends in the survey, which informs the position of the dots. And you'll notice we're plotting TensorFlow as well. We know that's not a company, but it's there for reference as open source tooling is an option for customers. And ETR sometimes like to show that as a reference point. Now we've also drawn a line for Databricks to show how relatively dominant they've become in the past 10 ETS surveys and sort of mind share going back to late 2018. And you can see a dozen or so other emerging tech vendors. So Andy, I want you to share your thoughts on these players, who were the ones to watch, name some names. We'll bring that data back up as you as you comment. >> So Databricks, as you said, remember we talked about how Oracle is not necessarily the database of the choice, you know? So Databricks is kind of trying to solve some of the issue for AI/ML workloads, right? And the problem is also there is no one company that could solve all of the problems. For example, if you look at the names in here, some of them are database names, some of them are platform names, some of them are like MLOps companies like, DataRobot (indistinct) and others. And some of them are like future based companies like, you know, the Techton and stuff. >> So it's a mix of those sub sectors? >> It's a mix of those companies. >> We'll talk to ETR about that. They'd be interested in your input on how to make this more granular and these sub-sectors. You got Hugging Face in here, >> Which is NLP, yeah. >> Okay. So your take, are these companies going to get acquired? Are they going to go IPO? Are they going to merge? >> Well, most of them going to get acquired. My prediction would be most of them will get acquired because look, at the end of the day, hyperscalers need these capabilities, right? So they're going to either create their own, AWS is very good at doing that. They have done a lot of those things. But the other ones, like for particularly Azure, they're going to look at it and saying that, "You know what, it's going to take time for me to build this. Why don't I just go and buy you?" Right? Or or even the smaller players like Oracle or IBM Cloud, this will exist. They might even take a look at them, right? So at the end of the day, a lot of these companies are going to get acquired or merged with others. >> Yeah. All right, let's wrap with some final thoughts. I'm going to make some comments Andy, and then ask you to dig in here. Look, despite the challenge of leveraging AI, you know, Ken, if you could bring up the next chart. We're not repeating, we're not predicting the AI winter of the 1990s. Machine intelligence. It's a superpower that's going to permeate every aspect of the technology industry. AI and data strategies have to be connected. Leveraging first party data is going to increase AI competitiveness and shorten time to value. Andy, I'd love your thoughts on that. I know you've got some thoughts on governance and AI ethics. You know, we talked about ChatGBT, Deepfakes, help us unpack all these trends. >> So there's so much information packed up there, right? The AI and data strategy, that's very, very, very important. If you don't have a proper data, people don't realize that AI is, your AI is the morals that you built on, it's predominantly based on the data what you have. It's not, AI cannot predict something that's going to happen without knowing what it is. It need to be trained, it need to understand what is it you're talking about. So 99% of the time you got to have a good data for you to train. So this where I mentioned to you, the problem is a lot of these companies can't afford to collect the real world data because it takes too long, it's too expensive. So a lot of these companies are trying to do the synthetic data way. It has its own set of issues because you can't use all... >> What's that synthetic data? Explain that. >> Synthetic data is basically not a real world data, but it's a created or simulated data equal and based on real data. It looks, feels, smells, taste like a real data, but it's not exactly real data, right? This is particularly useful in the financial and healthcare industry for world. So you don't have to, at the end of the day, if you have real data about your and my medical history data, if you redact it, you can still reverse this. It's fairly easy, right? >> Yeah, yeah. >> So by creating a synthetic data, there is no correlation between the real data and the synthetic data. >> So that's part of AI ethics and privacy and, okay. >> So the synthetic data, the issue with that is that when you're trying to commingle that with that, you can't create models based on just on synthetic data because synthetic data, as I said is artificial data. So basically you're creating artificial models, so you got to blend in properly that that blend is the problem. And you know how much of real data, how much of synthetic data you could use. You got to use judgment between efficiency cost and the time duration stuff. So that's one-- >> And risk >> And the risk involved with that. And the secondary issues which we talked about is that when you're creating, okay, you take a business use case, okay, you think about investing things, you build the whole thing out and you're trying to put it out into the market. Most companies that I talk to don't have a proper governance in place. They don't have ethics standards in place. They don't worry about the biases in data, they just go on trying to solve a business case >> It's wild west. >> 'Cause that's what they start. It's a wild west! And then at the end of the day when they are close to some legal litigation action or something or something else happens and that's when the Oh Shit! moments happens, right? And then they come in and say, "You know what, how do I fix this?" The governance, security and all of those things, ethics bias, data bias, de-biasing, none of them can be an afterthought. It got to start with the, from the get-go. So you got to start at the beginning saying that, "You know what, I'm going to do all of those AI programs, but before we get into this, we got to set some framework for doing all these things properly." Right? And then the-- >> Yeah. So let's go back to the key points. I want to bring up the cloud again. Because you got to get cloud right. Getting that right matters in AI to the points that you were making earlier. You can't just be out on an island and hyperscalers, they're going to obviously continue to do well. They get more and more data's going into the cloud and they have the native tools. To your point, in the case of AWS, Microsoft's obviously ubiquitous. Google's got great capabilities here. They've got integrated ecosystems partners that are going to continue to strengthen through the decade. What are your thoughts here? >> So a couple of things. One is the last mile ML or last mile AI that nobody's talking about. So that need to be attended to. There are lot of players in the market that coming up, when I talk about last mile, I'm talking about after you're done with the experimentation of the model, how fast and quickly and efficiently can you get it to production? So that's production being-- >> Compressing that time is going to put dollars in your pocket. >> Exactly. Right. >> So once, >> If you got it right. >> If you get it right, of course. So there are, there are a couple of issues with that. Once you figure out that model is working, that's perfect. People don't realize, the moment you decide that moment when the decision is made, it's like a new car. After you purchase the value decreases on a minute basis. Same thing with the models. Once the model is created, you need to be in production right away because it starts losing it value on a seconds minute basis. So issue number one, how fast can I get it over there? So your deployment, you are inferencing efficiently at the edge locations, your optimization, your security, all of this is at issue. But you know what is more important than that in the last mile? You keep the model up, you continue to work on, again, going back to the car analogy, at one point you got to figure out your car is costing more than to operate. So you got to get a new car, right? And that's the same thing with the models as well. If your model has reached a stage, it is actually a potential risk for your operation. To give you an idea, if Uber has a model, the first time when you get a car from going from point A to B cost you $60. If the model decayed the next time I might give you a $40 rate, I would take it definitely. But it's lost for the company. The business risk associated with operating on a bad model, you should realize it immediately, pull the model out, retrain it, redeploy it. That's is key. >> And that's got to be huge in security model recency and security to the extent that you can get real time is big. I mean you, you see Palo Alto, CrowdStrike, a lot of other security companies are injecting AI. Again, they won't show up in the ETR ML/AI taxonomy per se as a pure play. But ServiceNow is another company that you have have mentioned to me, offline. AI is just getting embedded everywhere. >> Yep. >> And then I'm glad you brought up, kind of real-time inferencing 'cause a lot of the modeling, if we can go back to the last point that we're going to make, a lot of the AI today is modeling done in the cloud. The last point we wanted to make here, I'd love to get your thoughts on this, is real-time AI inferencing for instance at the edge is going to become increasingly important for us. It's going to usher in new economics, new types of silicon, particularly arm-based. We've covered that a lot on "Breaking Analysis", new tooling, new companies and that could disrupt the sort of cloud model if new economics emerge. 'Cause cloud obviously very centralized, they're trying to decentralize it. But over the course of this decade we could see some real disruption there. Andy, give us your final thoughts on that. >> Yes and no. I mean at the end of the day, cloud is kind of centralized now, but a lot of this companies including, AWS is kind of trying to decentralize that by putting their own sub-centers and edge locations. >> Local zones, outposts. >> Yeah, exactly. Particularly the outpost concept. And if it can even become like a micro center and stuff, it won't go to the localized level of, I go to a single IOT level. But again, the cloud extends itself to that level. So if there is an opportunity need for it, the hyperscalers will figure out a way to fit that model. So I wouldn't too much worry about that, about deployment and where to have it and what to do with that. But you know, figure out the right business use case, get the right data, get the ethics and governance place and make sure they get it to production and make sure you pull the model out when it's not operating well. >> Excellent advice. Andy, I got to thank you for coming into the studio today, helping us with this "Breaking Analysis" segment. Outstanding collaboration and insights and input in today's episode. Hope we can do more. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. >> You're very welcome. All right. I want to thank Alex Marson who's on production and manages the podcast. Ken Schiffman as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight helped get the word out on social media and our newsletters. And Rob Hoof is our editor-in-chief over at Silicon Angle. He does some great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these episodes are available as podcast. Wherever you listen, all you got to do is search "Breaking Analysis" podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and silicon angle.com or you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com to get in touch, or DM me at dvellante or comment on our LinkedIn posts. Please check out ETR.AI for the best survey data and the enterprise tech business, Constellation Research. Andy publishes there some awesome information on AI and data. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching everybody and we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis". (gentle closing tune plays)

(upbeat music) (logo shimmers) >> Good afternoon everyone, and welcome back to AWS re Invent 2022. We are live here from the show floor in Las Vegas, Nevada, we're theCUBE, my name is Savannah Peterson, joined by John Furrier, John, are you excited for the next segment? >> I love the innovation story, this next segment's going to be really interesting, an example of ecosystem innovation in action, it'll be great. >> Yeah, our next guests are actually award-winning, I am very excited about that, please welcome Alan and Becky from IBM. Thank you both so much for being here, how's the show going for ya? Becky you got a, just a platinum smile, I'm going to go to you first, how's the show so far? >> No, it's going great. There's lots of buzz, lots of excitement this year, of course, three times the number of people, but it's fantastic. >> Three times the number of people- >> (indistinct) for last year. >> That is so exciting, so what is that... Do you know what the total is then? >> I think it's over 55,000. >> Ooh, loving that. >> John: A lot. >> It's a lot, you can tell by the hallways- >> Becky: It's a lot. >> John: It's crowded, right. >> Yeah, you can tell by just the energy and the, honestly the heat in here right now is pretty good. Alan, how are you feeling on the show floor this year? >> Awesome, awesome, we're meeting a lot of partners, talking to a lot of clients. We're really kind of showing them what the new IBM, AWS relationship is all about, so, beautiful time to be here. >> Well Alan, why don't you tell us what that partnership is about, to start us off? >> Sure, sure. So the partnership started with the relationship in our consulting services, and Becky's going to talk more about that, right? And it grew, this year it grew into the IBM software realm where we signed an agreement with AWS around May timeframe this year. >> I love it, so, like you said, you're just getting started- >> Just getting started. >> This is the beginning of something magic. >> We're just scratching the surface with this right? >> Savannah: Yeah. >> But it represents a huge move for IBM to meet our clients where they are, right? Meet 'em where they are with IBM technology, enterprise technology they're used to, but with the look and feel and usage model that they're used to with AWS. >> Absolutely and so to build on that, you know, we're really excited to be an AWS Premier Consulting Partner. We've had this relationship for a little over five years with AWS, I'd say it's really gone up a notch over the last year or two as we've been working more and more closely, doubling down on our investments, doubling down on our certifications, we've got over 15,000 people certified now, almost 16,000 actually- >> Savannah: Wow. >> 14 competencies, 16 service deliveries and counting. We cover a mass of information and services from Data Analytics, IoT, AI, all the way to Modernization, SAP, Security Services, right. So it's pretty comprehensive relationship, but in addition to the fantastic clients that we both share, we're doing some really great things around joint industry solutions, which I'll talk about in a few minutes and some of those are being launched at the conference this year, so that's even better. But the most exciting thing to me right now is that we just found out that we won the Global Innovator Partner of the Year award, and a LATAM Partner of the Year award. >> Savannah: Wow. >> John: That's (indistinct) >> So, super excited for IBM Consulting to win this, we're honored and it's just a great, exciting part to the conference. >> The news coming out of this event, we know tomorrow's going to be the big keynote for the new Head of the ecosystem, Ruba. We're hearing that it's going to be all about the ecosystem, enabling value creation, enabling new kinds of solutions. We heard from the CEO of AWS, this nextGen environment's upon us, it's very solution-oriented- >> Becky: Absolutely. >> A lot of technology, it's not an either or, it's an and equation, this is a huge new shift, I won't say shift, a continuation for AWS, and you guys, we've been covering, so you got the and situation going on... Innovation solutions and innovation technology and customers can choose, build a foundation or have it out of the box. What's your reaction to that? Do you think it's going to go well for AWS and IBM? >> I think it fits well into our partnership, right? The the thing you mentioned that I gravitate to the most is the customer gets to choose and the thing that's been most amazing about the partnership, both of these companies are maniacally focused on the customer, right? And so we've seen that come about as we work on ways the customer to access our technology, consume the technology, right? We've sold software on-prem to customers before, right, now we're going to be selling SaaS on AWS because we had customers that were on AWS, we're making it so that they can more easily purchase it by being in the marketplace, making it so they can draw down their committed spin with AWS, their customers like that a lot- [John] Yeah. >> Right. We've even gone further to enable our distributor network and our resellers, 'cause a lot of our customers have those relationships, so they can buy through them. And recently we've enabled the customer to leverage their EDP, their committed spend with AWS against IBM's ELA and structure, right, so you kind of get a double commit value from a customer point of view, so the amazing part is just been all about the customers. >> Well, that's interesting, you got the technology relationship with AWS, you mentioned how they're engaging with the software consumption in marketplace, licensed deals, there's all kinds of new business model innovations on top of the consumption and building. Then you got the consulting piece, which is again, a big part of, Adam calls it "Business transformation," which is the result of digital transformation. So digital transformation is the process, the outcome is the business transformation, that's kind of where it all kind of connects. Becky, what's your thoughts on the Amazon consulting relationships? Obviously the awards are great but- >> They are, no- >> What's the next step? Where does it go from here? >> I think the best way for me to describe it is to give you some rapid flyer client examples, you know, real customer stories and I think that's where it really, rubber meets the road, right? So one of the most recent examples are IBM CEO Arvind Krishna, in his three key results actually mentioned one of our big clients with AWS which is the Department of Veterans Affairs in the US and is an AI solution that's helped automate claims processing. So the veterans are trying to get their benefits, they submit the claims, snail mail, phone calls, you know, some in person, some over email- >> Savannah: Oh, it gives me all the feels hearing you talk about this- >> It's a process that used to take 25 to 30 days depending on the complexity of the claims, we've gotten it down with AWS down to within 24 hours we can get the veterans what they need really quickly so, I mean, that's just huge. And it's an exciting story that includes data analytics, AI and automation, so that's just one example. You know, we've got examples around SAP where we've developed a next generation SAP for HANA Platform for Phillips Carbon Black hosted on AWS, right? For them, it created an integrated, scalable, digital business, that cut out a hundred percent the capital cost from on-prem solutions. We've got security solutions around architectures for telecommunications advisors and of course we have lots of examples of migration and modernization and moving workloads using Red Hat to do that. So there's a lot of great client examples, so to me, this is the heart of what we do, like you said, both companies are really focused on clients, Amazon's customer-obsessed, and doing what we can for our clients together is where we get the impact. >> Yeah, that's one of the things that, it sounds kind of cliche, "Oh we're going to work backwards from the customer," I know Amazon says that, they do, you guys are also very customer-focused but the customers are changing. So I'd love to get your reaction because we're now in that cloud 2.0, I call that 2.0 or you got the Amazon Classic, my word, and then Next Gen Cloud coming, the customers are different, they're transforming because IT's not a department anymore, it's in the DevOps pipeline. The developers are driving a lot of IT but security and on DataOps, it's the structural change happening at the customer, how do you guys see that at IBM? I know we cover a lot of Red Hat and Arvind talks to us all the time, meeting the customer where they are, where are they? Where are the customers? Can you share your perspective on where they are? >> It's an astute observation, right, the customer is changing. We have both of those sets of customers, right, we still have the traditional customer, our relationship with Central IT, right, and driving governance and all of those things. But the folks that are innovating many times they're in the line of business, they're discovering solutions, they're building new things. And so we need our offerings to be available to them. We need them to understand how to use them and be convenient for these guys and take them through that process. So that change in the customer is one that we are embracing by making our offerings easy to consume, easy to use, and easy to build into solutions and then easy to parlay into what central IT needs to do for governance, compliance, and these types of things, it's becoming our new bread and butter. >> And what's really cool is- >> Is that easy button- >> We've been talking about- >> It's the easy button. >> The easy button a lot on the show this week and if you just, you just described it it's exactly what people want, go on Becky. >> Sorry about that, I was going to say, the cool part is that we're co-creating these things with our clients. So we're using things like the Amazon Working Backward that you just mentioned.` We're using the IBM garage methodology to get innovative to do design working, design thinking workshops, and think about where is that end user?, Where is that stakeholder? Where are they, they thinking, feeling, doing, saying how do we make the easier? How do we get the easy button for them so that they can have the right solutions for their businesses. We work mostly with lines of business in my part of the organization, and they're hungry for that. >> You know, we had a quote on theCUBE yesterday, Savannah remember one of our guests said, you know, back in the, you know, 1990s or two 2000s, if you had four production apps, it was considered complex >> Savannah: Yeah. >> You know, now you got hundreds of workloads, thousands of workloads, so, you know, this end-to-end vision that we heard that's playing out is getting more complex, but the easy button is where these abstraction layers and technology could come in. So it's getting more complex because there's more stuff but it's getting easier because- >> Savannah: What is the magnitude? >> You can make it easier. This is a dynamic, share your thoughts on that. >> It's getting more complex because our clients need to move faster, right, they need to be more agile, right, so not only are there thousands of applications there are hundreds of thousands microservices that are composing those applications. So they need capabilities that help them not just build but govern that structure and put the right compliance over that structure. So this relationship- >> Savannah: Lines of governance, yeah- >> This relationship we built with AWS is in our key areas, it's a strategic move, not a small thing for us, it covers things like automation and integration where you need to build that way. It covers things like data and AI where you need to do the analytics, even things like sustainability where we're totally aligned with what AWS is talking about and trying to do, right, so it's really a good match made there. >> John: It really sounds awesome. >> Yeah, it's clear. I want to dig in a little bit, I love the term, and I saw it in my, it stuck out to me in the notes right away, getting ready for you all, "maniacal", maniacal about the customer, maniacal about the community, I think that's really clear when we're talking about 24 days to 24 hours, like the veteran example that you gave right there, which I genuinely felt in my heart. These are the types of collaborations that really impact people's lives, tell me about some of the other trends or maybe a couple other examples you might have because I think sometimes when our head's in the clouds, we talk a lot about the tech and the functionality, we forget it's touching every single person walking around us, probably in a different way right now than we may even be aware- >> I think one of the things that's been, and our clients have been asking us for, is to help coming into this new era, right, so we've come out of a pandemic where a lot of them had to do some really, really basic quick decisions. Okay, "Contact Center, everyone work from home now." Okay, how do we do that? Okay, so we cobbled something together, now we're back, so what do we do? How do we create digital transformation around that so that we are going forward in a really positive way that works for our clients or for our contact center reps who are maybe used to working from home now versus what our clients need, the response times they need, and AWS has all the technology that we're working with like Amazon Connect to be able to pull those things together with some of our software like Watson Assistant. So those types of solutions are coming together out of that need and now we're moving into the trend where economy's getting tougher, right? More cost cutting potentially is coming, right, better efficiencies, how do we leverage our solutions and help our clients and customers do that? So I think that's what the customer obsession's about, is making sure we really understand where their pain points are, and not just solve them but maybe get rid of 'em. >> John: Yeah, great one. >> Yeah. And not developing in a silo, I mean, it's a classic subway problem, you got to be communicating with your community if you want to continue to serve them. And IBM's been serving their community for a very long time, which is super impressive, do you think they're ready for the challenge? >> Let's do it. >> So we have a new thing on theCUBE. >> Becky: Oh boy. >> We didn't warn you about this, but here we go. Although you told, Alan, you've mentioned you're feeling very cool with the microphone on, so I feel like, I'm going to put you in the hot seat first on this one. Not that I don't think Becky's going to smash it, but I feel like you're channeling the power of the microphone. New challenges, treat it like a 32nd Instagram reel-style story, a hot take, your thought leadership, money clip, you know, this is your moment. What is the biggest takeaway, most important thing happening at the show this year? >> Most important thing happening at the show? Well, I'm glad you mentioned it that way, because earlier you said we may have to sing (presenters and guests all laughing) >> So this is much better than- >> That's actually part of the close. >> John: Hey, hey. >> Don't worry, don't worry, I haven't forgotten that, it's your Instagram reel, go. (Savannah laughs) >> Original audio happening here on theCUBE, courtesy of Alan and IBM, I am so here for it. >> So what my takeaway and what I would like for the audience to take away, out of this conversation especially, but even broadly, the IBM AWS relationship is really like a landmark type of relationship, right? It's one of the biggest that we've established on both sides, right- >> Savannah: It seems huge, okay you are too monolith in the world of companies, like, yeah- >> Becky: Totally. >> It's huge. And it represents a strategic change on both sides, right? With that customer- >> Savannah: Fundamentally- >> In the middle right? >> Savannah: Yeah. >> So we're seeing things like, you know, AWS is working with us to make sure we're building products the way that a AWS client likes to consume them, right, so that we have the right integration, so they get that right look and feel, but they still get the enterprise level capabilities they're used to from IBM, right? So the big takeaway I like for people to take, is this is a new IBM, it's a new AWS and IBM relationship, and so expect more of that goodness, more of those new things coming out of it. [John] Excellent, wow. >> That was great, well done, you nailed it. and you're going to finish with some acapella, right? (Alan laughs) >> You got a pitch pipe ready? (everyone laughs) >> All right Becky, what about you? Give us your hot take. >> Well, so for me, the biggest takeaway is just the way this relationship has grown so much, so, like you said, it's the new IBM it's the new AWS, we were here last year, we had some good things, this year we're back at the show with joint solutions, have been jointly funded and co-created by AWS and IBM. This is huge, this is a really big opportunity and a really big deal that these two companies have come together, identified joint customer needs and we're going after 'em together and we're putting 'em in the booth. >> Savannah: So cool. And there's things like smart edge for welding solutions that are out there. >> Savannah: Yes. >> You know, I talked about, and it's, you know you wouldn't think, "Okay, well what's that?" There's a lot to that, a lot of saving when you look at how you do welding and if you apply things like visual AI and auditory AI to make sure a weld is good. I mean, I think these are, these things are cool, I geek out on these things- >> John: Every vertical. >> I'm geeking out with you right now, just geeking- >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, so- >> Every vertical is infected. >> They are and it's so impactful to have AWS just in lockstep with us, doing these solutions, it's so different from, you know, you kind of create something that you think your customers like and then you put it out there. >> Yeah, versus this moment. >> Yeah, they're better together. >> It's strategic partnership- >> It's truly a strategic partnership. and we're really bringing that this year to reinvent and so I'm super excited about that. >> Congratulations. >> Wow, well, congratulations again on your awards, on your new partnership, I can't wait to hear, I mean, we're seven months in, eight months in to this this SaaS side of the partnership, can't wait to see what we're going to be talking about next year when we have you back on theCUBE. >> I know. >> and maybe again in between now and then. Alan, Becky, thank you both so much for being here, this was truly a joy and I'm sure you gave folks a taste of the new IBM, practicing what you preach. >> John: Great momentum. >> And I'm just, I'm so impressed with the two companies collaborating, for those of us OGs in tech, the big companies never collaborated before- >> Yeah. >> John: Yeah. Joint, co-created solutions. >> And you have friction between products and everything else. I mean's it's really, co-collaboration is, it's a big theme for us at all the shows we've been doing this year but it's just nice to see it in practice too, it's an entirely different thing, so well done. >> Well it's what gets me out of the bed in the morning. >> All right, congratulations. >> Very clearly, your energy is contagious and I love it and yeah, this has been great. Thank all of you at home or at work or on the International Space Station or wherever you might be tuning in from today for joining us, here in Las Vegas at AWS re Invent where we are live from the show floor, wall-to-wall coverage for three days with John Furrier. My name is Savannah Peterson, we're theCUBE, the source for high tech coverage. (cheerful upbeat music)

>>Good evening everyone and welcome back to Sparkly Sin City, Las Vegas, Nevada, where we are here with the cube covering AWS Reinvent for the 10th year in a row. John Furrier has been here for all 10. John, we are in our last session of day one. How does it compare? >>I just graduated high school 10 years ago. It's exciting to be, here's been a long time. We've gotten a lot older. My >>Got your brain is complex. You've been a lot in there. So fast. >>Graduated eight in high school. You know how it's No. All good. This is what's going on. This next segment, wrapping up day one, which is like the the kickoff. The Mondays great year. I mean Tuesdays coming tomorrow big days. The announcements are all around the kind of next gen and you're starting to see partnering and integration is a huge part of this next wave cuz API's at the cloud, next gen cloud's gonna be deep engineering integration and you're gonna start to see business relationships and business transformation scale a horizontally, not only across applications but companies. This has been going on for a while, covering it. This next segment is gonna be one of those things that we're gonna look at as something that's gonna happen more and more on >>Yeah, I think so. It's what we've been talking about all day. Without further ado, I would like to welcome our very exciting guest for this final segment, trust from single store. Thank you for being here. And we also have him on from IBM Data and ai. Y'all are partners. Been partners for about a year. I'm gonna go out on a limb only because their legacy and suspect that a few people, a few more people might know what IBM does versus what a single store does. So why don't you just give us a little bit of background so everybody knows what's going on. >>Yeah, so single store is a relational database. It's a foundational relational systems, but the thing that we do the best is what we call us realtime analytics. So we have these systems that are legacy, which which do operations or analytics. And if you wanted to bring them together, like most of the applications want to, it's really a big hassle. You have to build an ETL pipeline, you'd have to duplicate the data. It's really faulty systems all over the place and you won't get the insights really quickly. Single store is trying to solve that problem elegantly by having an architecture that brings both operational and analytics in one place. >>Brilliant. >>You guys had a big funding now expanding men. Sequel, single store databases, 46 billion again, databases. We've been saying this in the queue for 12 years have been great and recently not one database will rule the world. We know that. That's, everyone knows that databases, data code, cloud scale, this is the convergence now of all that coming together where data, this reinvent is the theme. Everyone will be talking about end to end data, new kinds of specialized services, faster performance, new kinds of application development. This is the big part of why you guys are working together. Explain the relationship, how you guys are partnering and engineering together. >>Yeah, absolutely. I think so ibm, right? I think we are mainly into hybrid cloud and ai and one of the things we are looking at is expanding our ecosystem, right? Because we have gaps and as opposed to building everything organically, we want to partner with the likes of single store, which have unique capabilities that complement what we have. Because at the end of the day, customers are looking for an end to end solution that's also business problems. And they are very good at real time data analytics and hit staff, right? Because we have transactional databases, analytical databases, data lakes, but head staff is a gap that we currently have. And by partnering with them we can essentially address the needs of our customers and also what we plan to do is try to integrate our products and solutions with that so that when we can deliver a solution to our customers, >>This is why I was saying earlier, I think this is a a tell sign of what's coming from a lot of use cases where people are partnering right now you got the clouds, a bunch of building blocks. If you put it together yourself, you can build a durable system, very stable if you want out of the box solution, you can get that pre-built, but you really can't optimize. It breaks, you gotta replace it. High level engineering systems together is a little bit different, not just buying something out of the box. You guys are working together. This is kind of an end to end dynamic that we're gonna hear a lot more about at reinvent from the CEO ofs. But you guys are doing it across companies, not just with aws. Can you guys share this new engineering business model use case? Do you agree with what I'm saying? Do you think that's No, exactly. Do you think John's crazy, crazy? I mean I all discourse, you got out of the box, engineer it yourself, but then now you're, when people do joint engineering project, right? They're different. Yeah, >>Yeah. No, I mean, you know, I think our partnership is a, is a testament to what you just said, right? When you think about how to achieve realtime insights, the data comes into the system and, and the customers and new applications want insights as soon as the data comes into the system. So what we have done is basically build an architecture that enables that we have our own storage and query engine indexing, et cetera. And so we've innovated in our indexing in our database engine, but we wanna go further than that. We wanna be able to exploit the innovation that's happening at ibm. A very good example is, for instance, we have a native connector with Cognos, their BI dashboards right? To reason data very natively. So we build a hyper efficient system that moves the data very efficiently. A very other good example is embedded ai. >>So IBM of course has built AI chip and they have basically advanced quite a bit into the embedded ai, custom ai. So what we have done is, is as a true marriage between the engineering teams here, we make sure that the data in single store can natively exploit that kind of goodness. So we have taken their libraries. So if you have have data in single store, like let's imagine if you have Twitter data, if you wanna do sentiment analysis, you don't have to move the data out model, drain the model outside, et cetera. We just have the pre-built embedded AI libraries already. So it's a, it's a pure engineering manage there that kind of opens up a lot more insights than just simple analytics and >>Cost by the way too. Moving data around >>Another big theme. Yeah. >>And latency and speed is everything about single store and you know, it couldn't have happened without this kind of a partnership. >>So you've been at IBM for almost two decades, don't look it, but at nearly 17 years in how has, and maybe it hasn't, so feel free to educate us. How has, how has IBM's approach to AI and ML evolved as well as looking to involve partnerships in the ecosystem as a, as a collaborative raise the water level together force? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think when we initially started ai, right? I think we are, if you recollect Watson was the forefront of ai. We started the whole journey. I think our focus was more on end solutions, both horizontal and vertical. Watson Health, which is more vertically focused. We were also looking at Watson Assistant and Watson Discovery, which were more horizontally focused. I think it it, that whole strategy of the world period of time. Now we are trying to be more open. For example, this whole embedable AI that CICE was talking about. Yeah, it's essentially making the guts of our AI libraries, making them available for partners and ISVs to build their own applications and solutions. We've been using it historically within our own products the past few years, but now we are making it available. So that, how >>Big of a shift is that? Do, do you think we're seeing a more open and collaborative ecosystem in the space in general? >>Absolutely. Because I mean if you think about it, in my opinion, everybody is moving towards AI and that's the future. And you have two option. Either you build it on your own, which is gonna require significant amount of time, effort, investment, research, or you partner with the likes of ibm, which has been doing it for a while, right? And it has the ability to scale to the requirements of all the enterprises and partners. So you have that option and some companies are picking to do it on their own, but I believe that there's a huge amount of opportunity where people are looking to partner and source what's already available as opposed to investing from the scratch >>Classic buy versus build analysis for them to figure out, yeah, to get into the game >>And, and, and why reinvent the wheel when we're all trying to do things at, at not just scale but orders of magnitude faster and and more efficiently than we were before. It, it makes sense to share, but it's, it is, it does feel like a bit of a shift almost paradigm shift in, in the culture of competition versus how we're gonna creatively solve these problems. There's room for a lot of players here, I think. And yeah, it's, I don't >>Know, it's really, I wanted to ask if you don't mind me jumping in on that. So, okay, I get that people buy a bill I'm gonna use existing or build my own. The decision point on that is, to your point about the path of getting the path of AI is do I have the core competency skills, gap's a big issue. So, okay, the cube, if you had ai, we'd take it cuz we don't have any AI engineers around yet to build out on all the linguistic data we have. So we might use your ai but I might say this to then and we want to have a core competency. How do companies get that core competency going while using and partnering with, with ai? What you guys, what do you guys see as a way for them to get going? Because I think some people probably want to have core competency of >>Ai. Yeah, so I think, again, I think I, I wanna distinguish between a solution which requires core competency. You need expertise on the use case and you need expertise on your industry vertical and your customers versus the foundational components of ai, which are like, which are agnostic to the core competency, right? Because you take the foundational piece and then you further train it and define it for your specific use case. So we are not saying that we are experts in all the industry verticals. What we are good at is like foundational components, which is what we wanna provide. Got it. >>Yeah, that's the hard deep yes. Heavy lift. >>Yeah. And I can, I can give a color to that question from our perspective, right? When we think about what is our core competency, it's about databases, right? But there's a, some biotic relationship between data and ai, you know, they sort of like really move each other, right? You >>Need, they kind of can't have one without the other. You can, >>Right? And so the, the question is how do we make sure that we expand that, that that relationship where our customers can operationalize their AI applications closer to the data, not move the data somewhere else and do the modeling and then training somewhere else and dealing with multiple systems, et cetera. And this is where this kind of a cross engineering relationship helps. >>Awesome. Awesome. Great. And then I think companies are gonna want to have that baseline foundation and then start hiring in learning. It's like driving the car. You get the keys when you're ready to go. >>Yeah, >>Yeah. Think I'll give you a simple example, right? >>I want that turnkey lifestyle. We all do. Yeah, >>Yeah. Let me, let me just give you a quick analogy, right? For example, you can, you can basically make the engines and the car on your own or you can source the engine and you can make the car. So it's, it's basically an option that you can decide. The same thing with airplanes as well, right? Whether you wanna make the whole thing or whether you wanna source from someone who is already good at doing that piece, right? So that's, >>Or even create a new alloy for that matter. I mean you can take it all the way down in that analogy, >>Right? Is there a structural change and how companies are laying out their architecture in this modern era as we start to see this next let gen cloud emerge, teams, security teams becoming much more focused data teams. Its building into the DevOps into the developer pipeline, seeing that trend. What do you guys see in the modern data stack kind of evolution? Is there a data solutions architect coming? Do they exist yet? Is that what we're gonna see? Is it data as code automation? How do you guys see this landscape of the evolving persona? >>I mean if you look at the modern data stack as it is defined today, it is too detailed, it's too OSes and there are way too many layers, right? There are at least five different layers. You gotta have like a storage you replicate to do real time insights and then there's a query layer, visualization and then ai, right? So you have too many ETL pipelines in between, too many services, too many choke points, too many failures, >>Right? Etl, that's the dirty three letter word. >>Say no to ETL >>Adam Celeste, that's his quote, not mine. We hear that. >>Yeah. I mean there are different names to it. They don't call it etl, we call it replication, whatnot. But the point is hassle >>Data is getting more hassle. More >>Hassle. Yeah. The data is ultimately getting replicated in the modern data stack, right? And that's kind of one of our thesis at single store, which is that you'd have to converge not hyper specialize and conversation and convergence is possible in certain areas, right? When you think about operational analytics as two different aspects of the data pipeline, it is possible to bring them together. And we have done it, we have a lot of proof points to it, our customer stories speak to it and that is one area of convergence. We need to see more of it. The relationship with IBM is sort of another step of convergence wherein the, the final phases, the operation analytics is coming together and can we take analytics visualization with reports and dashboards and AI together. This is where Cognos and embedded AI comes into together, right? So we believe in single store, which is really conversions >>One single path. >>A shocking, a shocking tie >>Back there. So, so obviously, you know one of the things we love to joke about in the cube cuz we like to goof on the old enterprise is they solve complexity by adding more complexity. That's old. Old thinking. The new thinking is put it under the covers, abstract the way the complexities and make it easier. That's right. So how do you guys see that? Because this end to end story is not getting less complicated. It's actually, I believe increasing and complication complexity. However there's opportunities doing >>It >>More faster to put it under the covers or put it under the hood. What do you guys think about the how, how this new complexity gets managed or in this new data world we're gonna be coming in? >>Yeah, so I think you're absolutely right. It's the world is becoming more complex, technology is becoming more complex and I think there is a real need and it's not just from coming from us, it's also coming from the customers to simplify things. So our approach around AI is exactly that because we are essentially providing libraries, just like you have Python libraries, there are libraries now you have AI libraries that you can go infuse and embed deeply within applications and solutions. So it becomes integrated and simplistic for the customer point of view. From a user point of view, it's, it's very simple to consume, right? So that's what we are doing and I think single store is doing that with data, simplifying data and we are trying to do that with the rest of the portfolio, specifically ai. >>It's no wonder there's a lot of synergy between the two companies. John, do you think they're ready for the Instagram >>Challenge? Yes, they're ready. Uhoh >>Think they're ready. So we're doing a bit of a challenge. A little 32nd off the cuff. What's the most important takeaway? This could be your, think of it as your thought leadership sound bite from AWS >>2023 on Instagram reel. I'm scrolling. That's the Instagram, it's >>Your moment to stand out. Yeah, exactly. Stress. You look like you're ready to rock. Let's go for it. You've got that smile, I'm gonna let you go. Oh >>Goodness. You know, there is, there's this quote from astrophysics, space moves matter, a matter tells space how to curve. They have that kind of a relationship. I see the same between AI and data, right? They need to move together. And so AI is possible only with right data and, and data is meaningless without good insights through ai. They really have that kind of relationship and you would see a lot more of that happening in the future. The future of data and AI are combined and that's gonna happen. Accelerate a lot faster. >>Sures, well done. Wow. Thank you. I am very impressed. It's tough hacks to follow. You ready for it though? Let's go. Absolutely. >>Yeah. So just, just to add what is said, right, I think there's a quote from Rob Thomas, one of our leaders at ibm. There's no AI without ia. Essentially there's no AI without information architecture, which essentially data. But I wanna add one more thing. There's a lot of buzz around ai. I mean we are talking about simplicity here. AI in my opinion is three things and three things only. Either you use AI to predict future for forecasting, use AI to automate things. It could be simple, mundane task, it would be complex tasks depending on how exactly you want to use it. And third is to optimize. So predict, automate, optimize. Anything else is buzz. >>Okay. >>Brilliantly said. Honestly, I think you both probably hit the 32nd time mark that we gave you there. And the enthusiasm loved your hunger on that. You were born ready for that kind of pitch. I think they both nailed it for the, >>They nailed it. Nailed it. Well done. >>I I think that about sums it up for us. One last closing note and opportunity for you. You have a V 8.0 product coming out soon, December 13th if I'm not mistaken. You wanna give us a quick 15 second preview of that? >>Super excited about this. This is one of the, one of our major releases. So we are evolving the system on multiple dimensions on enterprise and governance and programmability. So there are certain features that some of our customers are aware of. We have made huge performance gains in our JSON access. We made it easy for people to consume, blossom on OnPrem and hybrid architectures. There are multiple other things that we're gonna put out on, on our site. So it's coming out on December 13th. It's, it's a major next phase of our >>System. And real quick, wasm is the web assembly moment. Correct. And the new >>About, we have pioneers in that we, we be wasm inside the engine. So you could run complex modules that are written in, could be C, could be rushed, could be Python. Instead of writing the the sequel and SQL as a store procedure, you could now run those modules inside. I >>Wanted to get that out there because at coupon we covered that >>Savannah Bay hot topic. Like, >>Like a blanket. We covered it like a blanket. >>Wow. >>On that glowing note, Dre, thank you so much for being here with us on the show. We hope to have both single store and IBM back on plenty more times in the future. Thank all of you for tuning in to our coverage here from Las Vegas in Nevada at AWS Reinvent 2022 with John Furrier. My name is Savannah Peterson. You're watching the Cube, the leader in high tech coverage. We'll see you tomorrow.