>> Welcome to our presentation here at VM World 2017. I'm John Furrier, co-host of The Cube, with Dave Vellante who's taking a lunch break. We are at VM World on the ground on the floor where we have Google's vice president of product management developer platforms Sam Ramji. Welcome to The Cube conversation. >> Great, thank you very much John. >> So you had a keynote this morning. You know, came up on stage, big announcement. Let's get right to it. That container as a service from Pivotal, VM Ware, and Google announced kind of a joint announcement. It was kind of weird. It wasn't a fully joint but it really came from Pivotal. Clarify what the announcement was. >> Sure, so what we announced is the result of a bunch of co-engineering that we've been doing in the open source with Pivotal around kubernetes running on bosh. So, if you've been paying attention to cloud foundry, you'd know that cloud foundry is the runtime layer and there's something called bosh sitting underneath it that does the cluster management and cluster operations. Pivotal is bringing that to commercial GA later this year. So what we announced with Pivotal and VMWare is that we're going to have cost incompatibility between Pivotal's kubernetes and Google's kubernetes. Google's kubernetes service is called Google Container Engine Pivotal's offering is called Pivotal Container Service. The big deal here is that PKS is going to be the standard way that you can get kubernetes from any of the Dell Group companies, whether that's VMWare, EMC. That gives us one consistent target for compatibility because one of the things that I pointed out in the keynote was inconsistency is the enemy in the data center. That's what makes operations difficult. >> And Kubo was announced at Cloud Foundry, Stu Miniman covered it, but that wasn't commercially available. That's the nuance, right? >> That's right, and that still is available in the open source. So what we've committed to is, we've said, every time that we update Google Container Engine, Pivotal Container Service is also going to update, so we have constant compatibility, that that's delivered on top of VMWare's infrastructure including NSX for networking and then the final twist is a big reason why people choose Google Cloud is because of our services. So Big Table, Big Query, a dynamically scaling data warehouse that we run an enormous amount of Google workloads on. Spanner, right. Which is why all of your data is consisted globally across Google's planet scaled data centers. And finally, all of our new machine learning and AI investments, those services will be delivered down to Pivotal Container Service, right, that's going to be there out of the box at launch and we'll keep adding to that catalog. >> It's just that Google Next was a lot of conversations, Oh Google's catching up to Amazon, Amazon's done a great job no doubt about it. We love Amazon. Andy Jassy was here as well. >> Super capable very competent engineering team. >> There's a lot of workloads in VMWare community that runs on AWS but it's not the only game in town. Jerry Chen, investor in Docker, friend of ours, we know, called this years ago. It's not going to be a one cloud winner take all game. Clearly. But there's the big three lining up, AWS, Microsoft, Google, you guys are doing great. So I got to ask you, what is the biggest misconception that people have about Google Cloud out in the market? 'Cause a lot of enterprises are used to running ops, maybe not as much dev as there is ops, and dev ops comes in with cloud native, there's a lot of confusion, what is the thing that you'd like to clarify about Google that they may not know about? >> The single most important thing to clarify about Google Cloud is our strategy is open-hybrid cloud. We think that we are in an amazing place to run workloads, we also recognize that compute belongs everywhere. We think that the durable state of computing is more of a mosaic than a uni-directional arrow that says everything goes to cloud. We think you want to run your containers and your VM's in clouds. We think you want to run them in your data centers. We also think you want to move them around. So we've been diehard committed to building out the open-source projects, the protocols to let all of that information flow, and then providing services that can get anywhere. So open-hybrid cloud is the strategy, and that's what we've committed to with kubernetes, with tensorflow, with apache beam, with so much of the open-source that we've contributed to Linux and others, and then maintaining open standards compatibility for our services. >> Well, it's great to see you at Google because I know your history, great open source guy, you know open source, it's been really part of your life, and bringing that to Google's great, so congratulations. >> There's a reason for that though, it's pragmatic. This is not a crazy crusade. The value of open source is giving control to the customer. And I think that the most ethical way that you can build businesses and markets is based on customer choice. Giving them the ability to move to where they want. Reducing their costs of switching. If they stay with you, then you're really producing a value-added service. So I've spent time in the operator shoes, in the developer shoes, and in the vendor shoes. When I've spent time buying and running the software on my own, I really always valued and preferred things that would let me move my stuff around. I preferred open source. So that's really the method to the madness here. It's not about opening everything up insanely, giving everything away. It serves customers better and in the long run, the better you serve customers, you'll build a winning business. >> We're here on the ground floor at VMWorld 2017 in Las Vegas, where behind us is the VM Village. And obviously Sam was on stage with the big announcement with Pivotal VMWare. And this is kind of important now, we got to debate now, usually I'm not the contrarian in the group, I'm usually the guy who's like yeah, rah rah, entrepreneurial, optimistic, yeah we can do that! You know that future's here, go to the future! But I was kind of skeptical and I told VMWare and I saw Pat Gelsinger and Michael Dell in the hallways and I'm like, they thought this was going to be the big announcement, and it was their big announcement, but I was kind of like, guys, I mean, it's the long game, these guys in the VMWare community, their operations guys, their not going to connect the dots and there was kind of an applause but not a standing ovation that Google would've gotten at a Google Next conference where the geeks would've been like going crazy. What is the operational dynamic that you're seeing in this market that Google's looking at and bringing value to, so that's the question for you. >> This is what the big change in the industry is is going from only worrying about increasing application velocity to figuring out how to do that with reliability. So there's a whole community of operators that I think many of us have left behind as we've talked about clouds and cloud data. We've done a great job of appealing to developers, enabling them to be more productive, but with operators, we've kind of said, well, your mileage may vary or we don't have time for you, or you have to figure it out yourself. I think the next big phase in adoption of cloud native technology is to say, first of all, open-hybrid, run your stuff wherever you want. >> Well you've got to have experience running cloud. Now you bring that knowledge out here. >> And that's the next piece. How do we offer you the tools and the skills that you need as an operator to have that same consistency, those same guarantees you used to have, and move everything forward in the future? Because if you turn one audience, one community, into the bad people who are holding everything back, that's a losing proposition, you have to give everybody a path to win, right? Everybody wants to be the good guy. So I think, now we need to start paying really close attention to operators and be approachable, right? I would like to see GCP become the most approachable cloud. We're already well known as the most advanced cloud. But can we be the easiest to adopt as well, and that's our challenge, to get the experience. >> You got to get that touch, that these enterprise teams historically have had, but it's interesting I mean, the mosaic you'd mentioned requires some unification, right? You got to be likable. You got to be approachable. And that's where you guys are going, I know you guys are building out for that, but the question is, for you, because Google has a lot of experience, and I know from personal knowledge Google's depth of people and talent, not always the cleanest execution out to the market in terms of the front-facing white glove service that some of these other companies have done, but you guys are certainly strong. >> Well, I think this is where Diane Greene has been driving the transformation, I mean like, she breathes, eats, sleeps, dreams enterprise. So, being both a board member at Google and being the SVP of Google Cloud, she's really bringing the discipline to say, you know, white glove service is mandatory. We have a pretty substantial professional services organization and building out partnerships with Accenture, with PWC, with Deloitte, with everyone to make sure that these things are all serviceable and properly packaged all the way down to the end user. So, no doubt there's more, more room for us to improve, there's miles to go on the journey, but the focus and the drive to make sure that we're delivering the enterprise requirements, Dianne never lets us stop thinking about that. >> It's like math, right, the order of operations is super important, and there's a lot of stuff going on in the cloud right now that's complex. >> Yes. >> Ease of use is the number one thing that we're hearing, because one, it's a moving a train in general, right? But the cloud's growing, a lot of complexity, how do you guys view that? And the question I want to ask you is, we know what cloud looks like today. Amazon, they're doing great. Multi-horse race if you will. But in 2022, the expectations and what it looks like then is going to be completely different, if you just take the trajectory of what's happening. So cleaning up kubernetes, making that a manageable, all the self updates, makes a lot of sense, and I think that's the dots no one's connecting here, I get the long game, but what's the customer's view in your opinion as someone who's sitting back and with the Google perch looking out over the horizon, 2022, what's it like for the customer? >> That's an outstanding question. So I think, 2022, looking back, we've actually absorbed so much of this complexity that we can provide ease of use to every workload and to every segment. Backing into that, ease of use looks different, like, let's think about tooling, ease of use looks different to an electrician verus a carpenter versus a plumber. They're doing different jobs, they need different tools, so I think about those as different audiences and different workloads. So if you're trying to migrate virtual machines to a cloud, ease of use means a thing and it includes taking care of the networking layer, how do we make sure that our cloud network shows up like an on premises network, and you don't have to set up some weird VPC configuration, how can those just look like part of your LAN subject to your same security controls. That's a whole path of engineering for a particular division of the company. For a different division of the company focused on databases ease of use is wow, I've got this enormous database, I'm straining at the edges, how do I move that to the cloud? Well, what kind of database is it, right? Is it a SQL database? Is it a NoSQL database? So engineering that in, that's the key. The other thing that we have to do for ease of use is upscaling. So a lot of things that we talked about before are the need to drive IT efficiency through automation. But who's going to teach people how to do the automation especially while they're being held to a very high SLA standard for their own data center and held to a high standard for velocity movement to the cloud. This is where Google has invented a discipline called SRE or site reliability engineering, and it's basically the meta discipline around what many people call dev ops. We think that this is absolutely teachable, it's learnable, it's becoming a growing community. You can get O'Reilly books on the topics. So I think we have an accountability to the industry to go and teach every operator and every operating group, hey here's what SRE looks like, some of your folks might want to do this, because that will give you the lift to make all of these workloads much easier to manage 'cause it's not just about velocity, it's also about reliability. >> It's interesting, we've got about a minute left or so. I'm just going to get your thoughts on this because you've certainly seen it on the developer side, stack wars, whatever you want to call them, the my stack runs this tech, but last night I heard in the hallway here multiple times the general consensus of two stacks coming together, not just software stacks, hardware stacks, you're seeing things that have never run together or been tested together before. So the site reliability is a very interesting concept and developers get pissed off when stacks don't work, right? So this is a super kind of nuance in this new use case that are emerging because stuff's happened that's never been done before. >> Yeah, so this is where the common tutorials get really interesting, especially as we build out a planetary scale computer at Google. Right, we're no longer thinking about how does the GPU as part of your daughter board, we think about what about racks of GPU's as part of your datacenters using NVDIA K80's, what does it mean to have 180 teraflops of tensor processing capability in a cloud TPU. So getting container centric is crucial and making it really easy to attach to all of those devices by having open source drivers making sure they're all Linux compatible and developers can get to them is going to be part of the substrate to make sure that application developers can target those devices, operators can set a policy that say, yes, I want this to deploy preferentially to environments with a TPU or a GPU and that the whole system can just work and be operable. >> Great, Sam thanks so much for taking the time to stop by. One on one conversation with Sam Ramji who's a Google Cloud, he's a vice president of product management and developer platforms for Google. We'll see you at Google Next. Thanks for spending the time. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. >> Thank you John.

>> Announcer: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube. Covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. (futuristic tone) >> Welcome back to the Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host Stu Miniman. We are welcoming right now Sam Ramji. He is the Vice President of Product Management Google Cloud Platforms. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you, Rebecca, really appreciate it. And Stu good to see you again. >> So in your keynote, you talked about how this is the age of the developer. You said this is the best time in history to be a developer. We have more veneration, more cred in the industry. People get us, people respect us. And yet you also talked about how it is also the most challenging time to be a developer. Can you unpack that a little bit for our viewers? >> Yeah, absolutely. So I think there's two parts that make it really difficult. One is just the velocity of all the different pieces, how fast they're moving, right? How do you stay on top of all the different latest technology, right? How do you unpack all of the new buzzwords? How do you say this is a cloud, that's not a cloud? So you're constantly racing to keep up, but you're also maintaining all of your old systems, which is the other part that makes it so complex. Many old systems weren't built for modernization. They were just kind of like hey, this is a really cool thing, and they were built without any sense of the history, or the future that they'd be used in. So imagine the modern enterprise developer who's got a ship software at high rates of speed, support new business initiatives, they've got to deliver innovation, and they have to bridge the very new with the very old. Because if your mobile app doesn't talk to your mainframe, you are not going to move money. It's that simple. There's layers of technology architecture. In fact, you could think of it as technology archeology, as I mentioned in the keynote, right, this we don't want to create a new genre of people called programmer archeologists, who have to go-- >> I'm picturing them just chipping away. >> Sam: I don't think it'll be as exciting as Indiana Jones. >> No. >> Digging through layers of the stack is not really what people want to be doing with their time. >> Sam: Temple of the lost kernel. >> I love it. >> So Sam, it's interesting to kind of see, I was at the Google Cloud event a couple months ago, and here you bring up the term open cloud, which part of me wants to poke a hole in that and be like, come on, everybody has their cloud. Come on, you want to lock everybody in, you've got the best technology, therefore why isn't it just being open because it's great to say open and maybe people will trust you. Help explain that. >> Puppies, freedom, apple pie, motherhood, right. >> Stu: Yeah, yeah. (laughs) >> So there's a couple sides to that. One, we think the cloud is just a spectacular opportunity. We think about 1.2 trillion dollars in current spend will end up in cloud. And the cloud market depending on how you measure it is in the mid 20 billions today. So there's just unbounded upside. So we don't have to be a aspirational monopolist in order to be a successful business. And in fact, if you wind the clock forward, you will see that every market ends up breaking down into a closed system and a closed company, and an open platform. And the open platforms tend to grow more slowly, sort of exponential versus logarithmic, is how we think about it. So it's a pragmatic business strategy. Think about Linux in '97. Think about Linux in 2002. Think about Linux in 2007. Think about Linux in 2012. Think about Linux today. Look at that rate. It's the only thing that you're going to use. So open is very pragmatic that way. It's pragmatic in another direction which is customer choice. Customers are going to come for things that give them more options. Because your job is to future proof your business, to create what in the financial community call optionality. So how do you get that? In 2011, about eight other people and I created a nonprofit called the Open Cloud Initiative. And the Initiative is long since dead, we didn't fund it right, we kind of got these ideas baked, and then moved on. >> Stu: There's another OCI now. >> That's right, it's the Open Container Initiative. But we had three really crisp concepts there. We said number one, an open cloud will be based on open source. There won't be stuff that you can't get, can't replicate, can't build yourself. Second, we said, it'll have open access. There'll be no barriers to entry or exit. There won't be any discrimination on which users can or can't come in, and there won't be any blockers to being able to take your stuff out. 'Cause we felt that without open access, the cloud would be unsafe at any speed, to borrow a quote from Ralph Nader. And then third, built on an open ecosystem. So if you are assuming that you have to be able to be open to tens of thousands of different ideas, tens of thousands of different software applications, which are maybe database infrastructure, things that as a cloud provider, you might want to be a first party provider of. Well those things have to compete, or trade off or enrich each other in a consistent way, in a way that's fair, which is kind of what we mean when we say open ecosystem, but being able to be pulled through is going to give you that rate of change that you need to be exponential rather than logarithmic. So it's based on some fairly durable concepts, but I welcome you to poke holes in it. >> So we did an event with MIT a little while back. We had Marshall Van Alstyne, professor at BU who I know you know. He's an advisor at Cloud Foundry, and he talked about those platforms and it was interesting, you know, with the phone system you had Apple who got lots of the money, smaller market share as opposed to Android, which of course comes out of Google, has all of the adoption but less revenue. So, not sure it's this, yeah. >> Interestingly, we've run those curves, and you kind of see that same logarithmic versus exponential shift happening in Android. So we've seen, I don't have the latest numbers on the top of my head, but that is generating billions of dollars of third party revenue now. So share does shift over time in favor of openness and faster innovation. >> So let's bring it back to Red Hat here, because if I talk to all the big public cloud guys, Microsoft has embraced open source. >> And they're not just guys, actually, there's lots of women. >> Rebecca: Yes, thank you. >> Stu: I apologize. >> Sorry, I'm in a little bit of a jam here, where I'm trying to tell people the collective noun for technologists is not guys. >> Stu: Okay. >> It could be people, it could be folks, internally we use squirrels from time to time, just to invite people in. >> So, when I talk to the cloud squirrels, Microsoft has embraced open source. Amazon has an interesting relationship. >> I was there when that happened. >> You and I both know the people that they've brought in who have very good credibility in the open source community that are helping out Amazon there. Is it Kubernetes that makes you open because I look at what Red Hat's doing, we say okay, if I want to be able to live across many clouds or in my own data centers, Kubernetes is a layer to do that. It comes back to some of the things like Cloud Foundry. Is that what makes it open because I have choice, or is there more to it that you want to cover from an open cloud standpoint, from a Google standpoint? >> Open and choice effectively is a spectrum of effort. If it's incredibly difficult, it's the same as not having a choice. If it's incredibly easy, then you're saying actually, you really are free to come and go. So Kubernetes is kind of the brightest star in the solar system of open cloud. There's a lot of other technologies, new things that are coming out, like istio and pluri. I don't want to lose you in word soup. Linker D, container D, a lot of other things, because this is a whole new field, a whole fabric that has to come to bear, that just like the internet, can layer on top of your existing data centers or your existing clouds, that you can have other applications or other capabilities layered on top of it. So this permission-less innovation idea is getting reborn in the cloud era, not on top of TCP/IP, we take that for granted, but on top of Kubernetes and all of the linked projects. So yeah, that's a big part of it. >> I want to continue on with that idea of permission-less innovation and talk about the culture of open source, particularly because of what you were saying in the keynote about how it's not about the code, it's about the community. And you were using words like empathy and trust, and things that we don't necessarily think of as synonymous with engineers. >> Sam: Isn't it? >> So, can you just talk a little bit about how you've seen the culture change, particularly since your days at Microsoft, and now being at Google, in terms of how people are working together? >> Absolutely, so the first thing is why did it change? It became an economic imperative. Let's look at software industry competition back in the 90s. In general, the biggest got the mostest. If you could assemble the largest number of very intelligent engineers, and put them all on the same project, you would overwhelm your competition. So we saw that play out again and again. Then this new form of collaboration came around, not just birthed by Linux, but also Apache and a number of other things, where it's like oh, we don't have to work for the same company in order to collaborate. And all of a sudden we started seeing those masses grow as big as the number of engineers who went a single company. Ten thousand people, ten thousand engineers, share the copyright to the Linux kernel. At no point have they worked at the same company. At no point could a company have afforded to get all of them together. So this economic imperative that marks what I think of as the first half of the thirty years of open source that we've been in. The second half has been more us all waking up, and realizing open source has got to be inclusive. A diverse world needs diverse solutions built by diverse people. How do we increase our empathy? How do we increase our understanding so that we can collaborate? Because if we think each other is a jerk, if we get turned off of building our great ideas into software because some community member has said something that's just fundamentally not cool, or deeply hurtful, we are human beings and we do take our toys away, and say I'm not going to be there. >> That's the crux of it too. >> It's absolutely a cutthroat industry, but I think one of the things I'm seeing, I've been in Silicon Valley for 22 years, less three years for a stint at Microsoft, I've actually started to see the community become more self-reflective and like, if we can have cutthroat competition in corporations, we don't have to make that personal. 'Cause every likelihood of open source projects is you're employed as a professional engineer at a company, and that employment agreement might change. Especially in containers, right? Great container developers you'll see they move from one company to another, whether it's a giant company like Google, or whether it's a big startup like Docker, or any range of companies. Or Red Hat. So, this sort of general sense that there is a community is starting to help us make better open source, and you can't be effective in a community if you don't have empathy and you don't start focusing on understanding code of conduct community norms. >> Sam, I'm curious how you look at this spectrum of with this complexity out there, how much will your average customer, and you can segment it anywhere you want, but they say, okay I'm going to engage with this, do open source, get involved, and what spectrum of customers are going to be like, well, let me just run it on Google because you've got a great platform, I'm not going to have Google engineers and you guys have lots of smart people that can do that in any of the platform. How do you see that spectrum of customer, is it by what their business IT needs are, is it the size of the customer, is there a decision tree that you guys have worked out yet to try to help end users with what do they own, what do they outsource? It's in clouds more than outsourcing these days. The deal of outsourcing was your mess for less, and this should be somewhat more transformational and hopefully more business value, right? >> Yeah, Urs Hölzle, who's our SVP of Technical Infrastructure, says, the cloud is not a co-location facility. It is different, it is not your server that you shipped up and you know, ran. It's an integrated set of services that should make it incredibly easy to do computing. And we have tons of very intelligent women and men operating our cloud. We think about things like how do you balance velocity and reliability? We have a discipline called site reliability engineering. We've published a book on it, a community is growing up around that, it's sort of the mainstream version of dev ops. So there are a bunch of components that any company at any size can adopt, as long as you need both velocity and reliability. This has always been the tyranny of the or. If I can move fast I can break things, but even Mark Zuckerberg recently said you know, move fast and break fewer things. Kind of a shift, 'cause you don't want to break a lot of people's experience. How do you do that, while making sure that you have high reliability? It really defies simple classification. We have seen companies from startups to mom and pop shops, all the way to giant enterprises adopting cloud, adopting Google cloud platform. One of the big draws is of course, data analytics. Google is a deeply data intensive business, and we've taken that to eleven basically with machine learning, which is why it was so important to explain tense or flow, offer that as open source, and be able to move AI forward. Any company, at any size that wants to do high speed, high scale data analytics, is coming to GCP. We've seen it basically break down into, what's the business value, how close is it to the decision maker, and how motivated is an engineer to learn something different and give cloud a try. >> Because the engineer has to get better at working with the data, understanding the data, and deriving the right insights from the data. >> You're exactly right. Engineers are people, and people need to learn, and they need to be motivated to change. >> Sam, last question I have for you is, you've been involved in many different projects. We look at from the outside and say, okay, how much should be company driven, how much does a foundation get involved? We've seen certain foundations that have done very well, and others that have struggled. It's very interesting to watch Google. We'd give you good as we've talked on the Cube so far. Kubernetes seems to be going well. Great adoption. Google participates, but not too much, and Red Hat I think would agree with that. So congratulations on that piece. >> Sam: Thank you. >> What's your learnings that you've had as you've been involved in some of these various initiatives, couple foundations. We interviewed you when you were back at the Cloud Foundry, and things like that, so, what have you learned that you might want to say, hey, here's some guidelines. >> Yeah, so I think the first guideline is the core of a foundation is, the core purpose of a foundation is bootstrapping trust. So where trust is missing, then you will need that in order to create better contribution and higher velocity in the project. If there's trust there, if there's a benevolent dictator and everyone says that person's fine or that company's fine, then you won't necessarily need a foundation. You've seen a lot of changes in open source startups, dot coms that are also a dot org, shifting to models where you say well, this thing is actually so big it needs to not be owned by any one company. And therefore, to get the next level of contribution, we need to be able to bring in giant companies, then we create trust at that next level. So foundations are really there for trust. It's really important to be strong enough to get something off the ground, and this is the challenge we had at Cloud Foundry, it was a VMware project and then a Pivotal project, and many people believe this is great open source, but it's not an open community, but the technology had to keep working really well. So we how do we have a majority contributor, and start opening up, in a thoughtful process and bringing people in, until you can say what our target is to have the main contributor be less than 50% of the code commits. 'Cause then the majority is really coming from the community. Other projects that have been around for longer, maybe they started out with no majority. Those organizations, those projects tend to be self-organizing, and what they need is just a foundation to build a place that people can contribute money to, so the community can have events. So there's two very different types of organizations. One's almost like a charity, to say I really care about this popular open source project, and I want to be able to give something back, and others are more like a trade association, which is like, we need to enable very complex coordination between big companies that have a lot at stake, in which case you'll create a different class of foundation. >> Great, well Sam Ramji, thank you so much for being with us here on the Cube. I'm Rebecca Knight, and for your host Stu Miniman, please join us back in a bit. (futuristic tone)

(uplifting music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE Conversations here at the Palo Alto Studios for theCUBE. I'm John Furrier the co-host of theCUBE, co-founder of SiliconANGLE. We're here for Thought Leader Thursday, and my guest here to talk about the cloud, earnings in the industry, and also all the mega trends happening is Tarun Thakur, who is the co-founder and CEO of Datos.IO, hot start up out of Los Gatos, California. Welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you, John, thank you, good to be back. >> We love having entrepreneurs come in because you guys are on the cutting edge, you're sweating bullets, you're stressing out, you're building the company. You guys are still in a growth mode, which is great, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> But you're also playing in the cloud game. You're in the ecosystem. We're seeing massive visibility now into the numbers. You see the cloud earnings just came out. Amazon continues to crush it. Microsoft, they're bundling 365 and they're juicing the numbers up but we all know what's going on there, but still, they're looking good. >> Correct. >> And then Google's a dark horse with really that developer platform looking good. So the big three are popping. But, you know, Facebook just announced a $10 billion quarter. They're a cloud too, not to be reckoned with, but kind of not in the pure infrastructures of service. So clearly the market has shown that there is some stability. We're in the second, third inning maybe of this cloud game. What's your take on the marketplace? >> No, I think this is an excellent topic. Thank you, John, for again having us back. Always great to be here. So, you know, the way I think about what's happening really in the cloud is really from three dimensions. Number one, you know, you rightly said $20 billion is what Amazon is on a run rate business of. We personally believe it's still the first innings. It's not the second or the third. You know, they've seen a massive adoption as its called the product market for developilabilty, where the developers, where the application developers, where the SMBs of the world, but the enterprises are just starting to scratch the surface of the cloud. We believe the cloud is in the first innings. The real growth. >> Enterprise cloud. >> Enterprise cloud is just beginning. Just beginning, right. I was, you know, I'll give you quickly an example. I was out in Denver visiting a customer, which is the world's largest, one of the world's largest, shipping companies. They are moving as fast as possible to the cloud, but this is their first foray. But their first foray is not five terabytes or 50 terabytes. Their first foray is 50 petabytes of data. >> So they're moving big time. >> Oh, they're moving big time. >> This is not a toe in the water. >> No, they took two years to evaluate it, and then they go big. >> Right, so talk about the trends here because let's tease through the numbers. I looked at all the earnings, and again, Microsoft is doing well, but remember, they're bundling Office 365, which kind of puts Google unnoticed because Google's got a huge presence that they could roll in. So there's a lot of number games going on that the analysts are kind of pointing out, and we're pointing out, but Amazon has just been crushing it on overall performance. >> Right. >> I mean look at the compute that's going on, the scale, they've got thousands of enterprise customers, and still there's a lot more growth there because the on-prem, true private cloud, is still growing. >> That's correct. >> So what is the state of the enterprise now, and who is using the public cloud more, and who's using it less, and why are they doing that? Is it a makeup, is it a DNA culture? Is it just evolution? >> No, it's just evolution, John. I think the enterprises are finally latching on to this, I think they are, but they're latching on it in a big way. Right, and so that's the second point that I sort of wanted to highlight that while you call Google the Trojan horse, and Amazon being the lead, and then Microsoft somewhere in the middle, let's not forget about Oracle cloud. Larry Ellison is a formidable competitive spirit. He's not going to give up. He has not given up so far. They are going to build an Oracle cloud. There will be a-- >> Well they have an Oracle cloud. >> They have an Oracle cloud. But, you know, having versus really truly-- >> It's so funny, Larry Ellison called Salesforce a fake cloud, but a lot of people are calling Oracle a fake cloud. >> A fake cloud. >> But Oracle on Oracle, we've entered Dave Donatelli, Larry is the only one that hasn't come on theCUBE. Oracle cloud works great with Oracle. >> Correct. >> They're trying to put the message out there that Oracle is working well with cloud native. They're in the Cloud Native Foundation now. >> Sure, sure. >> CNCF, so you stayed in Oracle amidst Avery and folks over there doing a great job, so, but they're not getting the word out. Oracle's not getting the job done because no one sees Oracle as a cool cloud native company. >> No, and they're not. And I think that's a very valid point. But what I'm saying is that there will be room There is oxygen in this market to get the fourth and the fifth cloud provider. There will be specialized clouds. And there will be places for that. Because Amazon is not an answer for all. It is definitely an answer for majority of your workloads, but the HPC, the high performance computing workloads, the GPU workloads, the Oracle. You know, you look at the number one database in the cloud that Amazon claims openly is MySQL. It's not Oracle. An Amazon database business, if they're making 20 billion in total AWS, I will tell you about 40% or 50% of their business is database. And that's not Oracle. So think of five to $10 billion of revenue and money that Amazon is making is not Oracle. >> What's that mean? Does that mean Oracle's losing money or. That's leakage on Oracle's model? Is that Oracle still has an opportunity? Cause they still control a lot of databases. >> Thank you and, thus, thank you, thank you for asking that. It's not that Oracle is losing money, it's the next generation applications, it's the cloud enabled applications. >> So it's growth, it's pure growth. >> It's the new oxygen, it's the new wealth creation. >> So it's like the classic example when the internet started. Web traffic increased because more people were using the internet. >> Correct. >> So what you're saying is that cloud has created a more database market. Amazon's getting a big chuck of it there, but Oracle still has the database market. >> For example if you look-- >> And SAP too. >> And look at the third reason of these clouds, if you look at AIML, right, these applications, the Alexa, the Siri-like applications, and the applications that will be built on top of this, will be built in the cloud. You're not going to start building Alexa AI application on prem infrastructure. That is not happening. And that's the third part of this whole cloud. We say it's $20 billion and we have barely scratched the surface on AI, ML, and blockchain. And all those applications that will be built, will be built on cloud elastic infrastructure. >> Alright, so what's your take? I mean, right now Amazon's winning the cloud game, Oracle, I wouldn't call them number four, but they're trying to juice the numbers up as well, but they clearly have an installed base, and they're not going anywhere. >> Tarun: Captive audience. >> SAP is going multi-cloud, so you're seeing SAP starting to put their, looking at saying, hey, we want our customers to run Oracle SAP on any cloud, so they're clearly thinking multi-cloud. Who else is out there? Alibaba cloud is now coming to the US in San Mateo, so they're number seven cloud but four worldwide, right? >> Tarun: Correct. >> So, pure worldwide numbers, Alibaba's four. >> Yes, so I'll start with Ali cloud. You know, you talk about Alibaba, their cloud is called Ali cloud, and fortunately, as you're building a company, as you talked about earlier on in our offline conversation, you get to meet all the way from governed DoD's and DIA's of the world too. We worked with Ali cloud executive team just a few weeks ago and they were out here in the bay area. Didi is the de facto car hailing company, it's not Uber, in China. We believe Ali cloud will be that in China. There will be a fifth cloud, there will be a sixth cloud. To my point, there will be specialized clouds. Amazon's not going to win this entire pie. And there will be clouds outside of US markets. >> Well I had a chance to tell Karen Lu and Dr. Min Wen Li as well as Dr. Wong at Alibaba in China a few weeks ago, and if you look at what they're doing in China, it's not just cloud. They've got eCommerce, they've got the city brain project. They're looking at holistically around data. Data's fundamental to their vision. I think that's consistent with what we're seeing in the US. A little bit more broader scope because IT here is a little bit more, has more legacy. China's got much more focus and got some government controls in there to get some latitude to do the right things. But the consumers are moving faster in China. If you look at the mobile growth. >> Absolutely. >> John: Huge indicator. >> Look at the Didi's growth. Didi's growth is more faster than Uber's growth. Right, and they've built a massive, massive company out there. >> IoT is pretty hot in China, you're starting to see that. I mean, this is a re-imagining of cloud, so you guys are in the middle of it with back on the road recovery. So as a CEO you're in the body swerving, car's that are flying by you, you're trying not to get run over. You've got a good market opportunity with the cloud because GDPR's coming right around the corner. >> Yes, yes, absolutely. >> So what's your strategy? Are you, I mean, I'm paraphrasing, not dodging cars, but, I mean, as a start up you've got to worry about your success might kill you, but how do you manage the business? I mean, how are you looking at this? Because you've got a great opportunity, and it's a growth market. >> Thank you, thank you. No we're lucky and fortunate that some of the decisions we made back four years ago people used to laugh, why are you going in this market of cloud data applications and isn't eight out of $10 dollars being spent on Oracle. Why would you go off to that. And, we're like, guys that's today. Where the puck is going. The puck is going towards the cloud and cloud applications. And to answer your question, we've found beautiful beautiful excellent product market fit. A little bit about the company. >> John: What's the use case? >> We're just classically going backup in recovery use cases. Built for cloud native applications. So, for example, I talked about the number one database in the cloud is MySQL. The number two database on prem is SQL Server. Take a guess on number two database in the cloud. It's MongoDB, they just went IPO two weeks ago. Number two database on Amazon is MongoDB. Who thought that five years ago? >> Well Lamp Stack its just open stores driving a lot of this action. >> So, I'll give you an example, one of our biggest, biggest customers which we're going to be announcing very soon, but take the liberty to share here, OpenTable. OpenTable, we are protecting OpenTable. 2.5 billion documents. That's yours and my reservation. That's your and my reservation that we make for a beautiful restaurant. >> Yeah, and if I change that reservation I've got to have that backed up, but want to bring it back. You guys are doing that. So what's the scale of the OpenTable? Ballpark it. >> So all their entire reservation applications. >> The whole thing. >> I probably will not talk about the datasets. You know, but their entire geo-distributed applications. You could be sitting in New York or you could be in London. >> And in which cloud are they using? >> They are all Google cloud, they're on prem. So they're truly private cloud and public cloud. So I call that a multi cloud data management space. They've a ton of stuff still on prem. They're not going to diverge away from that very quickly. >> What's the Google situation? Sam Ramji is over there doing a great job. Google Next is coming up soon, next year. Great traction, but still people aren't considering Google as the white glove service because, well, Amazon's not really known for that either, but at least they have a lot more, thousands more customers than Google does. >> Yeah so I think that the problem is twofold, in my humble opinion. Or the observation is twofold. One, I think Google needs to amp up their game around cloud and cloud messaging. You open Amazon AWS.cloud website, and you open GCP website, you could just see the differences. How Amazon talks about cloud. You're still selling compute storage network, but they talk business agility. What took a month for SQL Server now takes two hours. That's what you're selling, right? >> You're selling speed and you're selling automation, and you're selling value. >> Orchestration. So I think Google has to amp up their game, and amp up their game around that. >> Are they too technical, too geeky? >> Too nerdy, too geeky and still talking about infrastructure. >> Yeah sure, and I think Sam knows that too. >> And I think second part, which is, you know, they absolutely need to amp up their game not go head on and follow Amazon, find the newer applications and new use cases, where they can go ahead of Amazon. Whenever you're playing Art of War, either you can follow somebody or you go establish your own base. >> If they go frontal attack on these guys they'll lose, they've got to play the shadows. I think they can slingshot around them. I think the developer traction they have is strong, even though Amazon's got strong developer traction. Google's got some goodness with TensorFlow, they've got some great technology, but they've got to stop the game of we're Google, go with us. Enterprises don't work that way even though I get why they say that cause it's true. At some level from a alpha geek perspective, but this isn't the land of alpha geeks, these are real people that have jobs and enterprise IT that won't transform. >> They're real enterprises, who have real DBAs, and real server admins who really care about data services. Going back to the comment-- >> Not just the shiny new toy. I need reliability, proof. >> I want durability of this data. Don't just tell me I can get compute 10 times cheaper than Amazon. That's not what I care about. Change my, talk my language. I care about data services. I called data driven enterprises. >> Okay, as you guys go out and talk to customers, give me the anecdotal view of the landscape of customers. Because obviously the earnings came out. We saw, again, Amazon continuing to do well. But they've got some competition. We just laid and unpacked that. Customers now see this. What's kind of the the conversations in the boardrooms, and then in the trenches in IT and enterprise as they transform because IT is not a department anymore in the future enterprise. It's now a fabric of all things in cloud native. What are the conversations? Are they slowing down, obviously they want to go faster, is it a personnel issue? What are some of the conversations? >> I'll give you real example. We presented recently to a big, massive federal government agency. We cannot take their name out of legal. >> John: They spend a lot of money. >> Out of Washington, D.C. out here in the Bay area. >> CIA. Or, NSA. >> You're looking at the start-ups in the Bay area, and they were like, look why had we ever adopted the IBMs, the mainframes, and the EMCs, and the Dells of the world. We also know the wealth of the innovation is here in Silicon Valley. Right, so they come out once a year. And I can tell you, John, spending two hours that we did with them earlier in the week, and they are accelerating their journey to the cloud. Things that were foreign terms like micro services, that's how they want to build these federal agencies now. Every application has to have microservices. They are not truly there. I'll tell you that. They are not there, but that is top of mind for the CIA. >> And gov cloud has grown very fast, fedramp, all these services. >> Amazon called it Commercial Cloud Service, c2s, built for the government. And that entire team was here. >> Well Tarun great job. Congratulations on your opportunity we just talked about. Datos.IO. You guys, it's Datos.IO if you want to check out the website. You're going to be at Reinvent, you're going to come on theCUBE, we'll be there with two sets. Again, I have 50, you're doing Amazon, love the community there, they do a great job, Andy Jassy comes on, great group, Trace Carlson, among others. What are you expecting to see this year at Amazon? Besides the fact that it's going to be crowded and certainly the show of the year in terms of cloud. >> Momentum, they're going to accelerate the momentum. The amount of services they're planning to announce from, because we work with the team very closely, and the amount of acceleration they're showing, the new partners coming on board, and the partners like us who had one customer, and now we have 20 in Amazon cloud. You know, we just became an advanced technology partner, they understand that. >> So you're happy with how they're working with partners? >> Oh we love Amazon team. We became an advanced technology partner. They drilled us down for three months to prove themselves, yes, Datos can run on their infrastructure. You know, they want to go fast, but they want to go diligent fast. >> Yeah, we love Amazon too, of course. Our crowd chat solver's on their website as a case study using some of their stuff. Thanks so much for coming on, your final thoughts. Earnings, cloud, where are we? >> This is unstoppable force. It's an unstoppable force, we're in the first innings. There's so much opportunity ahead of us. And we couldn't have picked a beautiful market to than what we did. >> And true private cloud as we keep pointing out, turns out that's playing out. On prem activity's high. Your thoughts on on prem? True private cloud? >> It's going to survive, it's going to survive. But it's not going to be the growth place. >> But we think it will grow with the SaaS. >> With the Saas, I agree, but infrastructure. Infrastructure is not going to be growing. So that's our two cents, but you know, we'll be back in a couple of weeks, we have a phenomenal exciting product launch coming up. >> I just tweeted on Twitter this morning $1.5 billion is going to be coming out of on premise, non-differentiated labor operations. Which basically means, the rack and stacking some of these jobs are going to go away. But the growth is in automation, AI, and machine learning, and some SaaS tooling. >> Cloud applications. >> Cloud operations business models growing on premise. >> And those dollars are going to leak to the cloud. >> Yeah, and cloud, it's all to the cloud. Tarun, thanks so much. >> Thank you. >> Co-founder and CEO of Datos.IO. I'm John Furrier here for CUBE Conversation in Palo Alto at our studios, thanks for watching. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco it's TheCUBE covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017. Brought to you by Samsung. (digital music) >> Hey welcome back and we're live here in San Francisco this is TheCUBE's exclusive coverage Samsung Developer Conference #SDC2017, I'm John Furrier co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media Coast My next guest is Ken Yeoung tech reporter here inside TheCUBE. I've known Ken for almost 10 years now plus been in the Silicon Valley beat scene covering technology, communities, and all the cutting edge tech but also some of the old established companies. Great to see you. >> Likewise, thanks for having me. >> So tech reporter, let's have a little reporter session here because reporting here at Samsung, to me, is my first developer conference with Samsung. I stopped going to the Apple World Developer Conference when it became too much of a circus around, you know, close to a couple of years before Steve Jobs died. >> Right. >> Now this whole scene well we will have to talk to Steve Gall when we get down there but here, my first one, my reports an awakening I get the TV thing but I'm like IoT that's my world. >> Ken: Oh really? >> I want to see more IoT >> Ken: Yeah. >> So it's good to see Samsung coming into the cloud and owning that. So, that's exciting for me. What do you see as a report that you could file? >> You know, so it's funny because I actually did write a post this morning after watching the keynote yesterday. While I was at VentureBeat a few months ago I reported on Bixby's launch when it came out with the Galaxy S8 and when I heard about what that was it was kind of interesting. That was one of the biggest selling points for me to switch over from my iPhone. And when I tried it out it was interesting. I was kind of wondering how it would stand up against Google Assistant because both of them are installed on the same device. But now as you see with Bixby 2.0 and now with the SmartThings you start to see Samsung's vision. Right now it's on a mobile, it's just very piecemeal. But now when you tackle it on with the TVs, with the fridges, monitors, ovens and everything like that it becomes your entire home. It becomes your Jarvis. You don't actually have to spend 150 bucks or 200 bucks on an Alexa-enabled device or Google Home that most people may not be totally familiar with. But if you have a TV you're familiar with it. >> Obviously you mentioned Jarvis. That's reference to the old sitcom and when Mark Zuckerberg tried his Jarvis project which was, you know, wire his home from scratch. Although a science project, you talk about real utility. I mean so we're getting down to the consumerization so let's take that to the next level. >> Ken: Right. >> If you look at the trends in Silicon Valley it's certainly in the tech industry block, chain and ICOs are really hot. Mission point offerings. That's based on utility right? So, utility-based ICOs, so communities using gamification. Game apps, utility. Samsung, SmartThings. Using their intelligence to not just be the next Amazon. >> Right >> The commerce cloud company, they're just trying to be a better Samsung. >> Ken: Exactly. >> Which they've had some problems in the past and we've heard from analysts here Patrick Morgan was on, pointed out... Illustrated the point. They're a stovepipe company. And with Bixby 2.0 they're like breaking down the silos. We had the execs on here saying that's their goal. >> Ken: Exactly. Yeah if you look on here everything has been siloed. You look at a lot of tech companies now and you don't get to see their grand vision. Everyone has this proto-program when they start these companies and when they expand then you start to see everything come together. Like for example, whether it's Square, whether it's Apple, whether it's Google or Facebook, right? And Samsung, a storied history, right, they've been around for ages with a lot of great technology and they've got their hands in different parts. But from a consumer standpoint you're like likelihood of you having a Samsung device in your home is probably pretty good and so why not just expand that leverage that technology. Right now tech is all about AI. You start to see a lot of the AI stars get acquired or heavily funded and heavily invested. >> Really The Cube is AI, we're AI machine right here. Right here is the bot, analyst report. People are AI watching. But I mean what the hell is AI? AI is machine learning, using software, >> Data collection. >> Nailed it. >> And personalization. And you look at I interviewed a Samsung executive at CAS last year this January, and he was telling me about the three parts. It has to be personal, it has to be contextual and it has to be conversational in terms of AI. What you saw yesterday during the keynote and what executives and the companies have been repeatedly saying is that's what Bixby is. And you could kind of say that's similar to what Google has with Google Assistant you can see that with Alexa but it's still very... Those technologies are very silent. >> What were those three things again? Personal, >> Personable, contextual, and conversational. >> That is awesome, in fact, that connects with what Amy Joe Kim, CEO of ShuffleBrain. She took it from a different angle; she's building these game apps but she's becoming more of a product development. Because it's not just build a game like a Zynga game or you know, something on a mobile phone. She's bringing gaming systems. Her thesis was people are now part of the game. Now those are my words but, she's essentially saying the game system includes data from your friends. >> Right. >> The game might suck but my friends are still there. So there's still some social equity in there. You're bringing it over to the contextual personal, this is the new magic for app developers. Is this leading to AR? >> Oh absolutely. >> I mean we're talking about ... This is the convergence of the new formulas for successful app development. >> Right, I mean we were talking about earlier what is AI and I mentioned all about data and it's absolutely true. Your home is collecting so much data about you that it's going to offer that personal response. So you're talking about is this going to lead to AR? Absolutely, so whatever data it has about your home you might bring your phone out as you go shopping or whatnot. You might be out sight-seeing and have your camera out. And it might bring back some memories, right or might display a photo from your photo album or something. So there's a lot of interesting ties that could come into it and obviously Samsung's camera on their phones are one of the top ones on the market. So there's potential for it, yeah. >> Sorry Ken, I've got to ask you. So looking at the bigger picture now let's look outside of Samsung. We can look at some tell signs here Google on stage clearly not grand-standing but doing their thing. Android, you know, AR core, starting to see that Google DNA. Now they've got tensor flow and a lot of goodness happening in the cloud with Sam Ramji over there kicking ass at Google doing a great job. Okay, they're the big three, some people call it the big seven I call it the big three. It's Amazon, Microsoft, Google. Everyone else is fighting for four, five, six. Depending on who you want to talk to. But those are the three, what I call, native clouds. Ones that are going to be whole-saleing resource. Amazon is not Google, Amazon has no Android. They dropped their phones. Microsoft, Joe Belfiore said hey I'm done with phones they tapped out. So essentially Microsoft taps out of device. They've still got the Xbox. Amazon tapping out of phones. They've got commerce. They've got web service. They've got entertainment. This is going to be interesting. What's your take? >> Well interesting is an under-statement there. I mean, you look at what the ... Amazon, right now, is basically running the show when it comes to virtual assistant or voice-powered assistance. Alexa, Amazon launched a bunch of Alexa products recently and then soon after, I believe it was the last month, Google launches a whole bunch of Google home devices as well. But what's interesting is that both of those companies are targeting... Have a different approach to what Samsung is, right? Remember Samsung's with Bixby 2.0 is all about consolidating the home, right? In my post I coined that it was basically their fight to unite the internet of things kind of thing. But, you know, when it comes to Alexa with Amazon and Google they're targeting not only the smaller integrations with maybe like August or SmartLocks or thermostats and whatnot but they're also going after retailers and businesses. So how many skills can you have on Alexa? How many, what are they called, actions can you have on Google Home? They're going after businesses. >> Well this is the edge of the network so the reason why, again coming back full-circle, I was very critical on day one yesterday. I was kind of like, data IoT that's our wheelhouse in TheCUBE. Not a lot of messaging around that because I don't think Samsung is ready yet and nor should they be given their evolution. But in Amazon's world >> I think they're ... The way they played it yesterday was pretty good a little humble, like they didn't set that expectation like oh my god this is going to >> They didn't dismiss it but they were basically not highlighting it right. >> Well they did enough. They did enough to entice you to tease it but like, look, they have a long way to go to kind of unite it. SmartThings has been around for a while so they've been kind of building it behind the scenes. Now this is like hey now we're going to slap on AI. It's similar to ... >> What do you hear from developers? I've been hearing some chirping here about AI it's got to be standardized and not sure. >> Oh, absolutely. I think a lot of developers will probably want to see hey if I'm going to build... If I want to leverage AI and kind of consolidate I want to be able to have it to maximize my input maximize my reach. Like I don't want to have to build one action here one service skill here. Whatever Samsung's going to call for Bixby. You know I want to make it that one thing. But Samsung's whole modernization that's going to be interesting in terms of your marketplace. How does that play out? You know, Amazon has recently started to monetize or start to incentivize, as it were, developers. And Google if they're not already doing that will probably has plenty of experience in doing that. With Android and now they can do that with Google. >> So I've got to ask you about Facebook. Facebook has been rumored to have a phone coming but I mean Facebook's >> Ken: They tried that once. >> They're Licking their wounds right now. I mean the love on Facebook is not high. Fake news, platform inconsistencies. >> Ken: Ad issues. >> Moves fast, breaks stuff. Zuck is hurting. It's hurting Zuck. Certainly the Russian stuff. I think, first of all, it's really not Facebook's fault. They never claimed to be some original content machine. They just got taken advantage of through bad arbitrage. >> It's gets it to some scale. >> People are not happy with Facebook right now so it's hard for them to choose a phone. >> Well, you're right. There are rumors that they were going to introduce the phone again after... We all remember Facebook Home which was, you know, we won't talk about that anymore. But I think there was talk about them doing a speaker some sort of video thing. I think they were calling it... I believe it's called Project Aloha. I believe Business ETC. and TechCrunch have reported on that extensively. That is going to compete with what Amazon's going. So everyone is going after Amazon, right. So I think don't discount Samsung on this part I think they are going to be I don't want to call them the dark horse but you know, people are kind of ignoring them right now. >> Well if Samsung actually aligned with Amazon that would be very because they'd have their foot in both camps. Google and Amazon. Just play Switzerland and win on both sides. >> Samsung, I think Samsung >> That might be a vital strategy. Kinesis if the customers wanted to do that. Google can provide some cloud for them, don't know how they feel about that. >> Yeah I mean Samsung will definitely be... I think has the appeal with their history they can go after the bigger retailers. The bigger manufacturers to leverage them because there's some stability as opposed to well I'm not going to give access to my data to Amazon you look at Amazon now as Amazon's one of the probably the de facto leader in that space. You see people teaming up with Google to compete against them. You know, there's a anti-Amazony type of alliance out there. >> Well I would say there's a jealousy factor. >> Ken: True, true. >> But a lot of the fud going out there... I saw Matt Asay's article in InfoWorld... And it was over the top basically saying that Amazon's not giving back an open source. I challenged Andy Jesse two years ago on that and Matt's behind the times. Matt you've got to get with the program you're a little bit hardcore pushed there. But I think he's echoing the fear of the community. Amazon's definitely doing open source first of all but the same thing goes for Ali Baba. I asked the founder of Ali Baba cloud last week when I was in China. You guys are taking open source what are you giving back and it was off the record comment and he was like, you know, they want to give back. So, just all kinds of political and or incumbent positions on open source, that to me is going to be the game-changer. Linux foundation, Hipatchi is growing, exponential growth in open source over the next five to ten years. Just in terms of lines of code shipped. >> Right. >> Linux foundation's shown those numbers and 10% of that code is going to be new. 90% of the code's going to be re-used and so forth. >> Ken: Oh absolutely. I mean you're going to need to have a lot of open source in order for this eco-system to really flourish. To build it on your own and build it proprietary it basically locks it down. Didn't Sony deal with that when they were doing, like, they're own memory cards for cameras and stuff and now their cameras are using SD cards now. So you're starting to see, I think, a lot of companies will need to be supportive of open source. In tech you start to see people boasting that, you know, we are doing this in open source. Or you know, Facebook constantly announces hey we are releasing this into open source. LinkedIn will do that. Any company that you talk to will... >> Except Apple. Apple does some open source. >> Apple does some open source, yeah. >> But they're a closed system and they are cool about it. They're up front it. Okay final question, bottom line, Samsung Developer Conference 2017 what should people know that didn't make it or are watching this, what should they know about what they missed and what Samsung's doing, what they need to do better. >> You know I think what really took the two-day conference is basically Bixby. You look at all the sessions; all about Bixby. SmartThings, sure they consolidated everything into the SmartThings cloud, great. But you know SmartThings has been around for a while and I'm interested to see how well they've been doing. I wish they released a little bit more numbers on those. But Bixby it was kind of an interesting 10 million users on them after three months launching in the US which is very is a pretty good number but they still have a bit of a ways to go and they're constantly making improvements which is a very good, good, good thing as well. >> Ken Yeoung, a friend of TheCUBE, tech reporter formerly with VentureBeat now onto his next thing what are you going to do? Take some time off? >> Take some time off, continue writing about what I see and who knows where that takes me. >> Yeah and it's good to get decompressed, you know, log off for a week or so. I went to China I was kind of off Facebook for a week. It felt great. >> Yeah. (laughs) >> No more political posts. One more Colin Kaepernick kneeling down during the national anthem or one more anti-Trump post I'm going to... It was just disaster and then the whole #MeToo thing hit and oh my god it was just so much hate. A lot of good things happening though in the world and it's good to see you writing out there. It's TheCUBE, I'm John Furrier, live in San Francisco, Samsung Developer Conference exclusive Cube coverage live here we'll be right back with more day two coverage of two days. We'll be right back.

>> Narrator: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017. Brought to you by Samsung. (cheerful music) >> Welcome back everyone, live here from San Fransisco, Moscone West, at the Samsung Developer Conference, 2017 #SDC2017. I'm John Furrier, cohost of theCUBE, co-founder of Silicon Angle Media. My next guest, Hilary Karls, Senior Software Engineer at Uber. Great to have you on, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> Great to have a female engineer for Uber, pun intended. In all seriousness, thanks for coming out, appreciate it. >> Oh, my pleasure. >> Love talking tech here; Samsung obviously is huge with Android, that's what you do. What do you do with Uber? Let's get that out on the table. What's your role at Uber as an engineer? >> I'm an Android engineer, I work on UberEATS, which is our food delivery product. I've been at Uber for about three years now. So I've gotten to see UberEATS grow from just a tiny operations experiment, in LA, all the way up to being in over 120 cities and having its own app. >> Uber's got that great culture; trying new things. Love the iteration and our family uses the competitor, DoorDash, and I can't wait for UberEATS to come to Palo Alto. Is it in Palo Alto yet? >> Yeah, it is. >> I better try it out. Bring me a discount, can you send me a little discount code? >> Yeah, I can definitely send you a discount code. >> Okay good, got that out of the way. Got my free phone here from Samsung, as well. Thank you Samsung for the free phone. So let's talk about Samsung, obviously this is a developer's conference, you're on the front line, building the app on the Android side. >> Yeah >> Google was on stage yesterday so there it is, it's all out there, Samsung innovating with the handset. Great reviews on the new 8, great screen. This is an Apple-esque going on here. They're there, they got an iOT strategy, so they're bringing together lifestyle. >> Yeah. >> Okay, this is the new user experience. Okay, so has Android gone up? They got Bixby. >> They got Bixby, yeah. >> What's your experience with Android and developing in the environment? >> Well I've been developing on Android for about four or five years now, and it's wonderful. It's open, it enables you to actually go and build. Using more of the APIs and having more ability to connect into the phone itself. To be honest, I love it. It's one of those where you actually get to take your ideas and ship it out to a much broader range of people. >> Build things that are still very very beautiful and very usable to people. >> I was talking with Sam Ramji, who's heading up Cloud product management at Google, as well as, developer programs across Google. We were talking at VM World, and I know their conference is more Cloud oriented. >> Hmm Hmm >> Talking about the user experience and Google is hyper-focused on building open-sourced libraries. >> Hmm Hmm >> So Google is going to be contributing all this goodness, you got the tensor flow, you got all this innovations going on at Google, that's translating to the edge of the network, we're seeing that with Samsung. House devices are great, you got TVs that are known for that, but connecting the smart things is really their strategy. As a developer, how do you look at that landscape, because you're looking at now tons of open source goodness coming in, from Google and then the communities, Android leveling up on capability. >> Hmm hmm >> And with the open APIs, where do you try to navigate, how do you extract the signal from the noise in the community? >> Well basically, you look for whatever libraries are actually used very heavily by people that have latest commands. If it comes from something like from Google, or from other really strong reputed open source players, like Square, you'll end up seeing adoption of that a lot more. When you then go into internet of things, it becomes also like how you see community - the chicken and egg thing. Is this the best opportunity to go for right now? Is the community there, can I monetize this? How do you integrate it? >> Yeah, that's the big question, what's the integration? So let me ask you a question on the Android. In your opinion, Android, Apple IOS, leveled up, in terms of capability? >> Pretty much, yeah. >> What's the difference between IOS and the Android, if you could explain to someone that's knocking on the door of both developer communities. >> Well basically, I would go for who you were trying to go for first. Are you trying to target the U.S, and trying to target that higher end of consumer? Or are you trying to have a mass appeal? For a lot of small start-ups, I'd actually say go IOS first, it makes sense. But when you want to bring it to the global market that's when you really, really, really need Android. When you want to bring it to places around the world where there are more Androids than IOS, that's definitely something that just needs that core experience. >> Is there anything that Android has, because it seems to me that Android has a lot more unique opportunities to customize. >> Yes. >> I think that seems to appeal to developers. When I look at our data, we look at our audience, I'll see the general purpose, I call general purpose Apple because Apple is like fine jewelry. Everyone wants to have the high-end suits, and the high-end code, whatever. But, you don't have the flexibility because it's kind of a walled garden from Java's standpoint. You have the open garden with the Android, that community, their playing more in open source, you're seeing block chain, you're seeing all these kinds of cool communities. What are some of the things that Android offers in this open approach that you like? Is there things that jump out at you? >> Well a lot of it's the ability to get customized, to have better security controls, to have widgets on your home screen. From a developer's standpoint, to have more flexibility about when you ask for permissions vs. when you don't. Also, the richness of the notifications, we've had that for a while on Android. It's like you can do actions and have things animate and keep things like progress bars on there for quite some time and IOS is finally catching up to that. >> And you're happy with Android? >> Oh, very much so. >> Alright, so what's your take on this show at Samsung? What's your vibe on the show, feeling, they got some good stuff? When do they need to work on things? >> Ummm. >> Give me the positive review and then give me the critical what they can do better? >> Yeah, I think actually bringing everything together in a connected cloud makes a lot of sense. Developers don't really like fragmented APIs. If you have to actually go talk to five or six different services to get something done, that's a lot more effort and a lot more overhead of understanding of how to connect to each one. So bringing it all together in one place, especially if that can have the overhead of, handle the overhead, making it secure, and doing data storage, and all that stuff, makes a lot of sense. >> Awesome. Hilary, final question for ya, personal question, put you on the spot here. What's the coolest thing you've built this past couple of years? That you coded, could be anything. >> Ohhh. >> What's the coolest thing that you feel >> Personally? >> Yeah. >> Alright, so I guess it was a year and a half now, there was a team of four of us that build the new Android Eats app. Built it from scratch in about three and a half months It was a team that was magical and never happens in Silicon Valley. It was three women and a latino dude, and we shipped it. >> No way. >> Yeah. >> Three months? >> Yeah, three and a half months. Starting in September, shipping early. >> We're talking, on the drawing board, on the design, >> Yeah. Literally, start to end. First line of code in early September, end of code writing, like wrapping and shipping it up right before Christmas. >> That's the new format, three women and a latino dude. (laughing) Congratulations, anything you'd like to share with the audience about the development scene here, what you're thinking about, what you're passionate about? >> I really really loved the piece of using technology to build more human connection, better humanity. I thought that was amazing; that piece was really inspiring to me. >> This is the new lifestyle tech is coming. The consumerization, blending analog, and digital together. This is the new normal from fashion tech, to UberEats. Congratulations, thanks for coming on theCUBE, Hilary Karls, Senior Software Engineer at Uber. This is theCUBE's live coverage of Samsung Developer Conference 2017, in San Francisco. I'm John Furrier, we'll be back with more after this short break. (cheerful music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit North America 2017, brought to you by The Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hello there and welcome to our special exclusive SiliconANGLE Media CUBE coverage here in Los Angeles, California, for the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, my co-host, Stu Miniman, for the two days of wall-to-wall coverage, this is day two of our coverage of what's going on in the Open Source world as the Linux Foundation consolidates their shows into a big tent event. This is the inaugural event of now consolidated, a bunch of little shows come together. This is the big show where the Linux Foundation brings their entire communities together to talk and cross-pollinate with Jim Zemlin, the Executive Director, as they outline that. Stu, we're in our kickoff of day two, we're going to do some analysis and commentary, but before we start I want to get your thoughts on just day one. Yesterday we had a lot of guests, a lot of activities going on at night, we kind of divided and conquered. What did you find out? >> Yeah so John you'd done some coverage of LinuxCon a couple of years ago, it's my first time coming to this show. We do a lot of Open Source coverage with theCUBE's over the years, so coming in it was like, okay, what are we going to be talking about, what's the vibe? And being a big tent event, you know, I was a little surprised to see, I mean, the conversation's the same that we've been hearing the last year. Kubernetes, kind of the big wave that's coming in, not just in Open Source, but really the conversation in cloud, and really was kind of the top issue that kind of containerization, the new way of architecting things, you know, Linux absolutely is down there underneath, and majorly important but, you know, it seems to be that rallying around everything Kubernetes. MesosCon's right next door, and we said two years ago you never would have thought that, Kubernetes, that Mesos would be saying, you know, the best place to run Kubernetes is on DCOS. You know, it was the container wars, the orchestration wars, all those things. Kubernetes really leading the charge there, and it really fed into a lot of the conversations we had here. And in our conversations, like with Christine Corbett, and in some of the keynotes this morning, really talking about the power of collaboration, community, you know, stuff like that, we were passionate about John. >> Yeah, I mean, Stu, here's my take on the big story coming out of L.A. for this event. And I think the top line story is this. The Open Source community has had so much success going in the early days and depending which generation you want to call it, you know, we're a little bit older, old school, maybe fourth generation, you can argue the point but here's the bottom line. The big story is that the Linux Foundation, Linux apps, are everywhere, it's a global standard, it is happening. And the scale of which the growth that's going to be coming is unprecedented, and I think for the first time in the history of the computer industry, you're seeing a pause. You're seeing a moment of excitement from the executive director, the Linux Foundation, the board members, and the participants in the community who are realizing, holy shit, this is going to grow very huge. And Open Source is going to go to a whole 'nother growth level, it's going to be exponential in scale, and you're going to see some blitzscaling going on, as Jerry Chen at Greylock and Reid Hoffman talk about. And that's going to change the nature of the participation. You're going to start to see new accelerated things, certification, the role of the foundation certainly has always been to serve the sustainable communities of Open Source. Their role will change as stewards of Open Source, the responsibility and the reliance on the Open Source software will continue to grow, and I think that scale phenomenon of Open Source is, potentially, might be the biggest wave of all, Stu, and I think some people are going to be washed like driftwood and some people are going to thrive and survive. >> You know, it's interesting, we look back at Linux, and Linux took a long time, you know, more than a decade, to really kind of gain mainstream adoption. You know, Red Hat, of course came out of with kind of the leadership and the dollars, but Linux was the foundation for everything being built today. There would be no Google without Linux. There would be no Amazon as we know it today without Linux. And I really liked, I think it was strong resonance, everybody's a little surprised, Joseph Gordon-Levitt in the keynote this morning, someone that we know, you know, from the movies, and we're here in L.A., they're like, oh great, they brought an actor. Well, he's actually pretty passionate. He has this website hitrecord.org, where they do, you know, collaboration, and it's people that are drawing and creating music and creating little clips and everything and they said how a community can help build on what they're doing. He said it's about community, fair compensation, and collaborating, rather than just socializing and sharing or any of those things. And something we've talked a lot is, what is the translation of participating in the community translate into dollars, translate into value. I know it's something you're really passionate about. >> Yeah, Stu, this is again, the big story is the growth. But let's unpack that a little bit. Open Source has always been about sharing, it's always been about community, it's been about innovation, freedom, they called them radicals in the early days but now they got to grow, flexibility, and execution. Here's the bottom line. The leadership of the Open Source is going to morph radically. Look at the program here. You got inclusion, you got a little politics, not like politics of open source, politics of cultural shaping with Christine Corbett Morgan, so she's talking about that, it's very relevant. You have Dan Lyons coming in, talking about the programmer culture, you have the actor coming in talking about collective intelligence. I believe that there's going to be a new way of how people are going to be compensated, how participation's going to scale and this comes down to some key tell tale signs. One, a new generation's coming into the Open Source world, this younger generation. They love Serverless, the love DevOps, because they don't want to deal with the infrastructure. So all the old folks, guys like our age, and gals, they have to provide leadership. I talked with Sam Ramji about this in detail, about how some of these stewards in the community have to step up and be leaders in a new way of governing because as the onboarding of more source code, more projects with IOT, with cloud, you're going to see a new generation of young developers that quite frankly are going to want to run fast, run faster, and they don't want to deal with networking, they don't want to, they want serverless, they want true programmable infrastructure, and that's going to potentially cause some changes, maybe at the leadership level but also how they run things. So, I think, Stu, this is something that we're watching as a big wave. >> Yeah, and it's funny because, we always talk, I'd love to be able to extract a way, even virtualization, oh, we're going to make it real simple, you don't have to worry it anymore, well, you know, John, we got some more interviews today, you know. Networking, storage, these things just don't magically, fairy dust, everything works really well, you know. Data has gravity, networking has lots of challenges we have to worry about. Open Source is now infused into all of these environments. Really helping to build those distributed architectures. We had a number of interviews yesterday talking about, these things are not easy, these are tough challenges. You know, even you talk to people and say, "Kubernetes is awesome," sure is not simple, it is not easy to crawl out. >> They've not graduated any projects out of the CNCF yet, talking to Chris yesterday, the COO, he said, "look, we haven't even graduated anything out of," but this is the point, Stu. Kubernetes is a tell sign, that's not fully-baked yet, it's an under-the-hood feature. Serverless, which I love the name and hate it at the same time because there's servers out there. The notion is that the due developers don't want a provision hardware, to them they just want a resource pool, so serverless is a good trend. The name is kind of weak in my opinion, but I kind of love it and hate it at the same time, I mean. >> John, it's just like cloud was 10 years ago. >> What do you think of Serverless, Stu? I mean bottom line is that how could you not like Serverless because as a developer you're just programming infrastructure as code. >> Right, absolutely, I want to be able to use things in a much more granular format, I want to be able to when I'm not using it not pay for it, it really fits into that environment. Something of course, with this show we're talking about is today, you say Serverless, I think AWS Lambda. The proprietary offering, how does something like Kubernetes fit into that? There's containers underneath, but there are a few different Open Source versions that functions as a service. There's Open FaaS, there's OpenWhisk, there's a couple of others, so how will I be able to take what we were liking about containers in general and Kubernetes specifically, that I can work across a number of environments to make sure that I'm not, John, I'm going to say the word, locked in, to a certain provider or a certain piece of the ecosystem. >> Well, Open Source is so robust right now. Again, 10% of the original ideas can be written in code that could be part of the 90% Open Source base code base. Jim Zemlin, the executive director called that the Code Sandwich. But the bottom line in my opinion, Stu, and you were just pointing it out is that the leadership has to scale. And I think one of the things that came up in some of my hallway conversations last night, talking to some folks who have been early on in Open Source, in the old days you had to hate someone, there was an enemy. There was Microsoft, and now they're on board. There was the big proprietary main mini-computer guys, the proprietary operating systems, they were the enemy. Who's the enemy now? The enemy is slowness, right? So, kind of the fundamental question is, Open Source doesn't have that enemy anymore, it's the standard. So the question is what is going to motivate the organizations? To me, I think it's speed. Speed is the new normal, scale is the new normal. Slowness and silos will be the enemy. >> Absolutely, John. It's something I've heard at a number of events we've been at recently, companies' number one thing is not cost, it's speed, and one of the reasons that so many companies work on, contribute to Open Source is to help them with that speed. They can't wait for the turn of the crank from the old software beast, or oh gosh, there are some chips or hardware involved in that? Open Source, I want to be able to contribute to the code, work on the code, ship it, move faster. >> And the other thing that came up yesterday, I want to get your thoughts and reaction to, is do you have a fashion model going on here? Never fight fashion, as we say, a good marketer would say. You have CNCF is very fashionable right now. But there's blogging and tackling projects that have been around for a while, like the networking piece. These are stable, great projects. They just don't have the pomp and circumstance as CNCF have. So, the balance of being trendy is an issue now for these Open Source communities. No one wants to work on a project that's boring but the relevance is important. So how do you react to that, Stu, because this is now a dynamic, it's kind of been there for a while, but now with the plethora of projects out there, are you nervous that fashion, fashionable trendy projects like CNCF, might suck all the option out of the governance? >> No, John, I mean, from a press and a marketing standpoint they get the attention, but I think that the stats really prove out, there's so many projects out there. Everybody's contributing to a lot of them, but it is something the developers should think about. We did an interview of a company, I remember years back, said, "how do you get the best people "and how do they choose what to do?" "Oh, whatever they feel is good." And I'm like, well, come on, you got to put a little bit of a business guidance on that to make sure what's going to help your business, what's going to help your career, if you're an individual contributing to this. There are plenty of options out there, both for starting new things as well as contributing to the big ones out there. And I liked what I was hearing from the Linux Foundation as to how they're going to give some governance to companies as to the health, that whole CHAOSS that they rolled out, talk about the health and the circular maintenance of things out there, but you know, so much activity. Kubernetes by no means is taking all of the attention, it just happens to be the current hotness. >> Well, there's some key under-the-hood details that are being worked on, that's the exciting part. Linux is a standard, it is powering. Most of the apps that are written are essential Linux apps if you look at the OS underneath. And again, the apps, again, the DevOps mindset is here, and now it's scaling and things like Serverless are going to be more greatness for developers, certainly as companies like Google, IBM, and others come in with real code and share and collaborate, a lot of people can participate in the greatness of Open Source, and I think that's, the future is bright for Linux and the Open Source Summit community. Stu, day two continues, live coverage here in Los Angeles. This is theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. Coverage of the Open Source Summit North America, in Los Angeles. We'll be right back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas. It's theCUBE covering VMworld 2017, brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. Live here at VMworld 2017 day three wrap-up. We're going to wrap up the whole show. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, Stu Miniman, Keith Townsend. Cube, set, two sets of coverage. Guys, great job, we have Justin Warren as well, John Troyer, Lisa Martin. Great team, guys, amazing. Three days, a lot of content, wall-to-wall coverage. Double barrel shotgun of Cube content. Amazing. What's left in the tank? Let's get this done. Dave, your thoughts as VMworld comes down to a close. >> Well, so I missed VMworld last year as you know, 'cause I was doing another show. Pat was giving me a lot of grief for that. But if I go back two years ago, two years ago VMware was shrinking. Its license revenue was in decline. Its cloud strategy was in continued disarray. Customers were kind of, you know, losing a lot of faith. >> John: Ecosystem was in turmoil. >> And the world thought that Amazon was going to completely destroy this company. Fast forward two years later, license growth, you know, 12-13%, the company's growing. It's nearly eight billion dollars, three billion dollars of operating cash, big stock buybacks, clarity on the cloud and, I think, and I'd love for Keith's opinion on this, a recognition of the customers that "I can't just throw everything in the cloud." Okay, that's one thing, but what I can do is try to bring the cloud model to my data, and AW, I mean Amazon, sorry, VMware is going to be a partner in doing that. And I think those have all been tailwinds along with some product cycles and some >> John: And Dell Technologies buying out from the federation which was taking on water. Let's not forget. Let's not forget about the federation EMC owned VMware and that was bought by Dell. >> People talk about the Dell discount. I'm not seeing the Dell discount right now. >> What is a Dell discount? What does that mean? >> The Dell discount is because Dell owns VMware, just like when EMC owned VMware, it somehow shackles them and depresses the value. Michael obviously doesn't agree. >> So product focus as well has been not diminished at all. The products are front and center. They still got the sessions. Guys, on the product side, what's your view? >> Strong product offering. I really love the message they want. A lot of the response from the community was like, "Pat is feeling energized." He has this shadow of what is going to happen post-acquisition. Is there going to be a Dell discount? You know what? VMware, you know, famously, five years ago, Pat was onstage. He said he's going to double down on virtualization. He jettisoned Pivotal, and we were all wondering, "What is he doing?" Proved over the long run he was right. Last year, this year, he's doubled down, not on just virtualization, but on this concept of SDDC. And it's finally starting to pay off. We're seeing consistently this concept of VCF. VMware cloud foundation on premises, off prem, and even in AWS, ironically. You know, three or four years ago, we were like, well, is OpenStack going to eat VMware's lunch? VMware has turned the tables and become that OpenStack layer, that consistent cloud layer, at least for that legacy type of way to do IT. Taking your internal data center processes and moving them to the cloud consistently across their vCAN network in the AWS. >> So if I get this right, you're basically saying that VMware essentially went from a position where they're twisting in the wind at all levels, turmoil in every department, every, house is on fire, to pulling one major bold bet, grab it out of the hat, kicking ass, taking names, Pat Gelsinger and team made good calls. >> You know what, I'm not a fan of calling what VMware's SDDC thing a private cloud. I don't think it's true private cloud. It is valuable to the infrastructure, but it's not private cloud, but customers love the message. Take what I'm doing now, check an easy box, move it into AWS or vCAN and it's resonating. >> Well certainly, Stu just gave you the eye dagger, 'cause Stu, the true private cloud report from Wikibon, which has been going viral at the show, been the talk of the show, everyone has been talking about it, Wikibon's true private cloud report. People love that, too, because the message is simple, take care of business at home, called the on prem. Yeah, change the operating model, that's going to take some time. >> So, my thought on this is, for years, we were talking about the stack wars. Lately, we've been talking about the cloud wars, and for the last few years, when I talked to the partner ecosystem, they were shrinking their booths. They were looking for alternatives. Remember Cisco? Aw geez, flaying anything but VMware. Let's see if we can do this. You know, IBM who was a big VMware partner. Well, they got rid of X86. Where are they going to part with VMware? On and on, HPE going closer with Microsoft. Even Dell, pre-acquisition, how much deeper they going to go with Microsoft? Now, you know, John, we've been talking on theCUBE for a while. You know, there's Microsoft. Their stack, their partnerships, their application, where they're putting it. Amazon, huge elephant in the room, when they made the deal it was like, oh well, you know, Pat's on his way out the door, and he's kind of, you know, pulling one over on Dell before he leaves. Now, I think we understand a little bit better where this fits in that portfolio of the Dell family. Open source, still something we beat on Pat and EMC before that. They're not really open source. They've got a proprietary software alternative that their partners seem excited about. They've really fumbled around with their cloud strategy for a year. They've got one that seems to be going well. We'll see, 4,500 service provider partners, the Amazon thing. We will still see where revenue comes. >> Stu, that's a good point. Pat Gelsinger was kicking ass as a CEO now, but his channels on his job many times, so props to Pat. He made some good calls, stayed on course, held the line on the direction, did not cave at all, him and his team, they did it. There's been some turnover as we know in VMware. I'll see the results. I'll clear the scoreboard. They're winning. Question I'll put to you guys right now. Impact of Andy Jassy from AWS here on day one. How much of an impact was that? He made some statements. And the question I want to ask you, in addition to the impact, is he said, "This is not an optical deal." Most companies make optical illusional deals, make it look like they're all in, and they don't really deliver. So one, impact of Jassy being here and two, who was he talking about? >> Dave: Well >> Where's the Barney deal? >> Well, so okay, first thing is I saw, I've always seen that AWS deal from Andy Jassy's perspective as TAM expansion. Big part of a CEO's job is, I've got to expand my TAM, especially when you see the growth of AWS, and it's slowing down a little bit, even though it's still impressive. He's got to expand his TAM. Well, how does AWS do that? Look to 500,000 VMware customers. So that's number one. Barney deal? There are a lot of Barney deals out there. I mean, most... >> What are you referring to, 'cause Google came on the stage the next day. I was getting tweets saying "Azure?" Stu, guys, who's the deal? Who was Andy Jassy talking about when he was looking at the VMware customers saying, essentially, this is not, implying others are? >> I'm not sure that he was necessarily throwing shade at anyone specifically. What there was is there was 18 months from when this deal went through, a lot of work. This was a lot of engineering work. Talk to the cloud foundation team, talk to the VSAN team. The amount of work to actually integrate, because we know Amazon actually has an extensive engineering team. They hyper-optimize what they're doing, so this is not some white box that I just slapped VMware on and said the BIOS, you know, it works and everything where I still am a little concerned if I'm, you know, a VMware employee as customers, I talked to some customers that really excited about this, the Lighthouse customers. They say it's going to get my team that loves their vCenter. They love everything, it's going to help them move faster. Then, you're talking to, "Oh there's these services they're going to be able to use." I'm like well, how much are they going to realize oh hey, this is great, and the VMware sales reps are just going to get eaten by the lion while the customer goes off. >> And so the impact's big then, you're saying, but you won't answer the question of who he's referring to. You don't think he's referring to anyone. Keith, what do you think? >> Let's look at, I like the comment about how difficult the integration was. Last year when I read, it said something like, wait, hold on what, the AWS, who is notorious about controlling their message, what I thought was funny is that Andy didn't use the term private cloud, he didn't use the term VMware cloud, he, VMware infrastructure and AWS, which is a massive engineering effort. So from that, I question whether or not they could execute upon that, but Andy Jassy being onstage on Monday showed the commitment that we're going to make these other services work, the total addressable market of 500,000 additional customers. You don't do this for bare metal servers. >> John: VMware has 500,000 customers? >> Yeah. That's the total addressable market, but that's not where AWS is going to grow by halting physical servers, by selling more Lambda, selling more CDN, selling more PAS, is the key, and where VMware and AWS relationship his weak is in that true integration between the two hybrid IT environments. So when you say, "Where's the barney deals?" the barney deals are, I think it's across the industry. Unless you're getting fully in bed and committed to make that level of investment >> No but engineering resources, this comes back down to what, the new kind of engagement between biz dev deals look like. You need to have that kind of level. >> I have no problem pointing to the Nutanix Google deal, anything that people are doing with Azure, no one's partnered at this level. >> Okay, Azure is a good one too, because I've heard from startups that have been enticed by the dollars, 'cause Microsoft's been sprinkling some cash on, who have left to go back to AWS, because of technical reasons, reverse proxies, basically software clued just to basically make stuff work. >> Well, so, where do we, how much do we know about the IBM VMware relationship? Because I mean IBM's >> Pat brought it up today. >> Soft layer hosting, right? They've got a lot more experience with VMware, IBM has said, I think they're shipping, they've been shipping for quite some time. So there's an example of engineering that had already largely been done, that's actually delivering value for customers. Pat probably brought it up because it's a great distribution channel for him. And I think Keith's right on. AWS doesn't speak in terms of VMs. They talk in terms of cloud services, like Lambda, database services, middleware, PAS layers, that's really where they're going to hook people in this community into their platform. >> Okay, so here's a question to end the segment as we wrap up the show, because this is kind of where it's all going. To me, my big epiphany was the following. Andy Jassy, statesman, Harvard MBA, now CEO of AWS, ticking names, ticking this, huge accomplishments, he's done great in his career, he's only getting better. And then Sam Ramji, great developer chops, knows software ecosystems, not Andy Jassy in terms of the title, but in terms of status, still a solid guy. Two contrasting positions, running the biggest cloud today, to Google brainpower, okay? So you're looking at that and you're saying, "Hmm, where is this going to go?" So the question on the table is, what does it take for someone to be successful in today's IT environment? Does IT need to be smarter in business or does need to be more smarter in IT, or both, and does Google have enough IQ in IT to actually make the products fast enough or are they at risk? >> Well I'll take the customer point of view, and you know, we always talk about people, process, technology. The technology is maturing, and it's maturing pretty quickly, but maybe still not quite to the point where the true private cloud vision is where we need it to be, but what's going to slow that down is the people and process side is going to take a lot longer. Stu, you made a comment yesterday, VMware's moving at the pace of the CIO. >> It's Keith's line, he's been using all week. >> Okay, great line and Robin Matlock heard that today, course marketing CMO said, "And the CIO needs to move faster." (men laugh) Well guess what? They can't. I thought that was just a perfect testament >> But that is exactly the dilemma isn't it? >> It really is, and this stuff is hard. And cloud doesn't necessarily make it any easier, (laughs) if anything, it makes it more complex, 'cause it's a completely new business model. >> But remember the old term, forklift upgrade? Okay, you don't have forklift upgrades anymore, you have rip and replace, whatever word you want to use. >> Stu: Now we have lift and shift. >> Lift and shift, rip and replace, lift and shift. Is Google, and this is my challenge to Sam, I didn't have time to ask him this question, I'll certainly do one on one next time I see him. Is Google smart enough with IQ in IT, certainly we know they're smart enough, but do they have enough IQ in IT to really make the transformation, or are they betting on a rip and replace version of a cloud? >> So John, no doubt Google's smart, and they built amazing things that, the ripple that Google has through the industry is phenomenal. They spin off whole industries based on what they're doing. Google played a very different game than Amazon is, you know, when you talk to customers and how they're first getting onto Google, you know, data's really important, analytics of course. Couple of years ago Google was saying, "Oh, we're just going to be that data analytics cloud," now of course they're trying to be a big player. Amazon, the company, remember, Amazon isn't just AWS. Andy Jassy fits into Jeff Bazer's great plans. You know, I'd love to hear, when we go to reinvent, what's happening in Whole Foods that's impacted by AWS. They are everywhere, they are, you know, Walmart did. >> How about TAM expansion, my wife's checking Amazon even more. >> But this is really interesting right, because Walmart's now using its muscle to say, "Hey, you going to do business "with AWS" >> Absolutely >> "And Whole Foods? "You're not doing business with us." So the point being that digital business is allowing companies to traverse industries and now you're seeing it in really interesting competitive lashbacks. >> So Capital One was onstage, I say something that over the past couple of years been controversial, no one believes me, but I believe this is what needs to happen. Capital One claimed that it's a technology company, they're not a bank. Well I want to bank with a bank, that' a whole 'nother conversation. But technology is just a tool to get your job done, and just like we had bookkeepers that knew Excel and then eventually Excel just became a part of your toolkit. AI, I talked to Chuck Hollis of Oracle about this on the podcast the other day. AI is just going to be a business toolkit that a business user uses. To the question, business users will become smarter at using technology. The cloud providers that enables the business user to have the least amount of friction to use that technology, to solve business challenges will win. The question is, is that Google or Andy Jassy, who has done it with Amazon, or some other cloud provider that's eating their own dog food. >> Okay guys, let's wrap this up. Let's go around the table, one word, two words, how do you wrap up VMware's position vis a vis as they go forward? >> VMware's on fire, I think the data center's on fire, the ecosystem is reforming around the cloud. And there's a lot of momentum right now, I mean I'm wondering, okay, what's going to happen to derail this, but right now the fundamentals look very good. >> Relevant, John. >> Yeah. >> Cool and relevant again. It's right, you know, cool, we can all argue, you know, look, I like what I heard with Amazon, it was better than I was expecting coming in. You know, getting in there, they talked about serverless, they talked about edge computing, something I actually had a couple really good conversations ticking to, partners doing IoT, and customers looking at that. If they can be relevant, not just in the data center, but in the cloud, and even at the edge, VMware's going to have a good life going forward. >> Yeah, and I'll wrap it up, you stole my word relevant, so I'll say, I'll a little bit further than relevant, VMware is still the leader in enterprise infrastructure software. They're not letting that lead go. >> But just on that, the last thing, they're an infrastructure software company. I think they showed how they can be more than that in the future. >> And my take is, smart strategy playing out, now people are starting to realize the long game that Pat's been playing. It's showing up in the financial results, and there's clarity, and you can see the game playing out, you're starting to see there where they're going to position, so good job, guys, that's a wrap. Want to thank our sponsors. Without sponsors theCUBE would not be able to come for the three days of wall-to-wall coverage provided to the community. We get great support from the folks on Twitter, we get support from the folks who watch the videos, want to thank you for watching, and also the sponsors, VMware, Hewlett Packard Enterprises, Dell EMC, IBM, OVH, CenturyLink, Datrium, Densify, Druva, Hitachi, INFINIDAT, Kamarino, NetApp, Nutanix, Red Hat, Rackspace, Rubrik, Skytap, Veeam and Zadara Storage. Thanks to all the 20 sponsors that we can go out and bring our best stuff here. Really appreciate your support. Thanks for watching theCUBE. This is a wrap from VMworld, thanks guys, thanks everybody here, and that's a wrap for VMworld 2017, thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's The Cube. Covering VMworld 2017, brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partner. >> Okay welcome back everyone, live here on the VMvillage at VMworld 2017. It's The Cube's exclusive three day coverage, day three, kicking off. We're here with Robin Matlock, CMO of VMware. Great to see you with my co-host Dave Vellante. How are you? >> Good hi guys. >> Day three. >> Good to be here. >> We know that you got this thing down, this whole VMworld cadence. Day two is always a great networking night, a lot of different events going on. And then you kind of make it like a light morning, no Keynotes, by design I'm sure. >> David: Yeah thanks for that. >> The attendees really, to be honest, they want the breakout sessions and the lab. So you give them, when we do Keynotes, they don't have that opportunity to do that. So Wednesday and Thursday there's not very little to compete with that. They can get to those breakout sessions. >> Okay great, give us some of the inside, the numbers, attendees. What's going on this year? What's different about this year? If there's anything different or it's the same formula. Give us some of the data. >> Yeah you know, it's going to be interesting as we kind of leave the event and get a little bit of more postmortem insight, but my perception being in the middle of it is the energy this year is, there's a tipping point. We are at some inflection point in this industry, and you can just feel it here at VMware and VMworld. I think that, you know, kind of some of the partnerships that we highlighted on stage has just changed people's perspective about what's really going on in this industry and really what's VMware's role in it. >> Yeah new vibe too, I mean VMware. We were talking about the transformation of Vmware as a company, and from its roots to where it is now. And then just in the ecosystem just in the past two years alone, you're seeing almost like the eye of the storm and then all of a sudden now a new ecosystem vibe is here which is clarity. They kind of know what's going on. The cloud thing is decided, and they know what to expect there. And so people seem to be getting back down to business. >> Yeah I think first of all ecosystem is such a vital part of VMware's culture and success and history, but when any market goes through a massive disruption, it impacts everything, right? It starts with the customer, what they're trying to do with their business, but then all of us on the technology side, we're having to shift and adapt and change. And that means also our relationships with each other is shifting and adapting. You know, I think you're right. I think there is a lot of historical legacy, and many of our relationships are very strong. And I think those are going to continue to be very strong, but you're seeing a lot of new brands step in, whether that's the Google's or the Amazon's, kind of take a new role. >> This is new blood both on the ecosystem and also employees within VMware. We noticed some new Keynote folks on stage, some great women in tech now, a lot of ladies in tech going on at VMware. You guys done a great work there just want to give you a prop on that. >> Yeah, you know I actually, thank you for acknowledging that because it's so important that we drive diversity and inclusion in our industry. And we all know as an industry, we're not performing particularly well in that department. >> Actually I was told by my Cube guest one time, it's actually been changed. It's inclusion and diversity now. They kind of move the I first. That's what I was schooled on, but no, but this is important. Inclusion has always been part of VMware, But you guys are doing more of it now. >> And we're working hard and trust me those were conscious choices about thinking about who is the messenger for our narrative and our story from customers to employees. Want to make sure that we're representing, you know, the diverse world that we live in. >> So I got to ask you a question, sorry to interrupt but Sanjay was on. He's talking about the relationship with Amazon, now you got Google. I interviewed Sam Ramji yesterday after his Keynote here. And VMware goes to the Amazon events. You don't see Microsoft go to Amazon events, and Google going to Amazon events. So VMware is going to all the now cloud events. Kind of changes how you do the community as people start collaborating with Google now. You got Microsoft. You have Amazon. How is that changing some of your marketing tactics? If any or does it change at all? >> I think it's, first of all, our marketing tactics they're always grounded in one thing. What's the business outcome we're trying drive? What's our business strategy? And then we think about what's the right marketing strategy to get us there. And look, we've been very vocal and very consistent. We believe the world will be made up of multiple clouds, right? We believe in a multi-cloud world. We think our customers are going to consume cloud services from a variety of cloud providers. And what we're all about is creating a common operating environment that lets you run, manage, connect, and secure clouds, workloads on any cloud, consumed by any device. And that means we got to be present. Where these other clouds and their customers are engaging VMware needs to be present, so that's what's driving my strategy. >> So that's clear, that's really clear. Clarity is a real theme to me anyway of this year. But when you think about, maybe a related question on the marketing and the narrative, the broader narrative, the lows in this industry sometimes are low 'cause of external factors sometimes they're self-inflicted. And the highs are really high. And you guys are on a real high right now, so it's like your North Star is sort of that customer focus that value piece. So when you think about the changes that are going on and the ecosystem and it's reforming, do you try to sort of capture that momentum and ride it, or do you sort of try to stay steady stream from a marketing pro's perspective. >> Well I think absolutely we want to ride momentum, and I think, but first you have to have your fundamentals. I think all of it, we believe we create momentum. We create our own momentum. We're not responding to momentum. We're creating it. Now are we doubling down? Are we paying attention to what is resonating and what customers are saying that's important to me? Well yeah, then we'll kind of be agile and invest and really accelerate in particular areas. I do think Vmware has tremendous momentum, but I think we've been working on that for a long time. I don't think it's some short term thing that's happened. I think we've been building great momentum now quarter after quarter for quite a while. >> Sort of a self-powered machine is essentially what you're saying, but I do feel as though, and tell me if you agree, that the clarity with respect to, say for instance the AWS announcement, and the customer clarity we've been talking about it all week, with the notion that I'm not just going to bring my data into the cloud. I got to bring the cloud to my business model. And I think there's a reality that has set in. Have you seen those two factors sort of help you, help customers understand your vision better? What if you could comment? >> Yeah I think first of all, there's some level of just maturity that is happening. These things have been, three years ago they were so new, and we got really involved. And we started playing around, and we started some things and testing some things, and listening to more customers. And I think customers are going through their journey. So all of us I think are kind of on our spectrum of maturing and that helps drive clarity. I think VMware has a vision, and it's consistent. It really hasn't changed for many many years. We were advocating hybrid cloud long long ago. And so now what you're seeing is the delivery against that vision. So clarity you can start getting more and more focused because you keep making the next step forward and delivering on the vision that you set out. >> Well the best come through. You can see as it shapes that sort of happening. Which ones are not and then you, okay that's not working let's keep this going. >> And Dave just your point about customers. I think for us, we're always really deeply committed to staying connected to our customers. So the validation that customers are putting on stage and talking about that's really evidence of just that they validated our strategy and that as we're making these next milestones, they're in it with us. And I think that's a really important thing that we're constantly being responsive to. What are they're requirements as they learn more and digest this stuff more. >> One of the challenges that comes up with communities that are robust as VMware has and VMworld. Communities' have always been the strength. And the ecosystem's part of the community. Is as the world grows, open source is growing. Communities are growing. There's always been the talk that oh Reinvent's the new VM world. And then VMworld just never goes away. It's still a robust show. You guys continue to do a great job, but now you start to see these communities come together Reinvent and VMworld. Google now put an olive branch out there with you guys. I still haven't seen the Microsoft piece come together yet, but it's clear that Amazon Web Services and VMware have synergy, Andy Jassy's on stage with you guys. So you have to challenge the team to still be collaborative across the communities. How do you balance that from a marketing standpoint? Because they do compete, Amazon, Microsoft, Google, kind of compete. >> But if you look at VMware's position in that landcape, we are the common operating environment that lets you run, manage, connect and secure any workload on any cloud. And sure they're going to compete, and they're going to compete fairly, and they're going to go try to win in the market. Our job is not to help or break that. Our job is to let customers decide which of those clouds makes sense for their business and ensure they have a common operating environment. >> John: I think we used the word arms dealer yesterday. I don't think he was going for that. >> Well but you, VMware. >> That's not going to pass the marketing test just so you know. >> We like it 'cause it's good Cube material. >> But VMware has a point of view, and you have to assert that point of view as a leader, or you have to be subservient to those other leaders. And it doesn't appear that you want to be subservient. And there is a stack war that's emerging, and you are at the center of that and you can either lead it or you can follow it. >> And I think we all bring a different set of strengths to the table. At the end of the day, VMware as had incredible success in the enterprise and within the enterprise data center. And that is our forte and we're going to leverage that. And what we are the experiences, the training, the expertise that our customers have, they want to capitalize on that. They don't want to throw that out the window, and they don't need to. We're going to enable them to capitalize on that and use that in these other cloud environments and get the benefit from those cloud providers while not giving up some of the benefits they've been enjoying for years. >> Well and the technology matures very quickly, and we're seeing that. You guys address some of the cloud native stuff, but the people process stuff doesn't mature nearly as quickly, you know. Somebody said the other day, and I thought it was a great quote, "You're moving at the speed of the CIO." which is just really underscores that you can't get out ahead and over-rotate or you're going to lose that customer base. >> I would argue that the CIO probably needs to pick up the pace a bit. Because he's got to move, or she, at the speed of business. >> Dave: It's hard. >> And that's fast as Pat was saying, this is the slowest day of your life going forward today. And the next day's going to be faster. >> Exactly. >> Well props to Pat. We'll have him on at one because he's having a great year. Congratulations for really VMware. You guys did your homework. You made some calls, some decisions, certainly with the cloud thing that was a good call. And then you continue to make your bets. >> We've never been afraid of being decisive and making big bets. That's what staying relevant is all about. >> Well Robin, we made a bet on VMworld years ago. You made a bet on us, and we're proud to work with you. And thanks for your support for the Cube. >> Robin: Love the partnership with you guys. >> And Andy Jassy the same with AWS. We made a bet on them and they're didn't understand it. Now here it is, and soon to be Google's. So thanks so much for your support. >> Alright, well here's to adapting and being versatile in this crazy industry of ours. >> How about making the bets? Here at Vmworld 2017, that's the theme making the choices are clear, make the bets. This is The Cube bringing you all the action from VMworld 2017. We'll be back with more live coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's The CUBE, covering VMworld 2017, brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back everyone, we're live here in Las Vegas. Behind me is the VM Village, this is The CUBE on the ground live at VMworld, I'm John Furrier, with Dave Vellante. Excited to have Sanjay Poonen, Cube VIP new badge that's going out. Five or more times you get a special badge on the website Chief Operating Officer, Chief Customer Operations as well at VMware, Sanjay. >> I think I won one of your hoop madness what do you call those Cube >> John: Yeah, that's right. You did get one of those. >> One of them, so add that to the smallest. >> Came in second to the bot, next year you won. We're going to have to check the algorithm on it that's before we had machine learning, so... Sanjay, great to see you. >> Always a pleasure, John and Dave, thank you for having me here. >> So, you know, in fairness to the VMware management team I got to say, great content program. Usually you can see, kind of, maybe some things that are kind of a little futuristic on the spot big time, on the content. True private cloud, data that Wikibon reported on, you guys are right in line with that. Hybrid-cloud is where its going from multi-cloud. You talk multi-cloud, the Kubernetes orchestration vision for Cloud Native, and even you were doing some interviewing on stage. >> Trying to be Anderson Cooper. >> So, tell us, what's your perspective because you got to balance here you got the reality of the Amazon relationship front and center, delivered big time there, shipping, western region, VMware on-prem, and on-cloud and this new cloud native vector of orchestration and simplicity. >> Yeah, I think, at least from our perspective as I describe in sort of that one chart where I try to put it in Sesame Street simple terms as I like to describe. VMware is one of the most fundamental companies that had a incredible impact in the data center, taking more costs and complexity. We are the defacto backbone of almost everybody's data center, but as the data center moves to the cloud you got to ask yourself, what's the relevance, and we've now shown, same way with the desktop going to mobile, and that's the end-user stuff that we've talked about the last few shows. But let's focus on that cloud part. We really felt as people extended to the public cloud we had to change our strategy to not seek to be a public cloud ourselves, and that's the reason we divested VCloud Air, and focused on significant things we could do with the leading public cloud vendors. As you know, Andy Jassy is a classmate of mine, Pat, Raghu, myself, began the discussions with Andy two years ago, and we announced the deal last year in October. This year having him on stage was, for me, personally a dream come true, and really nice to see that announcement, but we wanted to make sure we were also relevant to some of the other clouds. So earlier this year, in February, we announced Horizon Cloud, the VDI product manager. Today, we announced Kubernetes VMware, Pivotal and Google Form in Kubernetes, IBM Cloud. So all of the top four clouds, AWS, Azure, Google, and IBM have something going with VMware being with Pivotal. That's a big statement to our multi-cloud vision. >> And what a changeover from just two years ago when the ecosystem was, kind of, like a deer in the headlights, not knowing which way to zig or zag, do they cross the street. Where are we going with this? Now the clarity's very clear, cloud, and IoT, and edge with Amazon right there, a lot of the workloads there with multi-cloud. So the question I got to have you is that, as we just talked to the Google guys, is VMware turning into an arms dealer? Because that's a nice position to be at, because you're now driving VMware into multiple clouds. >> I think, you know, when I was on your show last time I described this continent called VMware, and then bridges into them. (John laughs) Let me try another and see if this works. That was good, but it had its 12-month shelf life. Think about the top four public clouds as sort of Mount Rushmore type figures. Each at different heights, AWS, Azure, Google, IBM Cloud, in market share they're the top four. If you want to build a house on top of Mount Rushmore, okay, it could work, but you're going to have to build it on top of one president's head. The moment you want to build it, you need some concrete infrastructure that fills in all the holes between them. That's VMware. It's the infrastructure platform that can sit on top of those varied disparate levels of Mount Rushmore, and make yourself relevant from on. So that's why we fell, whether you want to call that a quintessential platform, an arms provider, whatever it is, for the 4,400 cloud providers, plus the top four or five public cloud players today, VMware has to be relevant. We weren't two or three years ago. Now, for the top three, we're very relevant. >> I call it a binding agent. You're the binding agent across clouds, that's what you're really trying to become. But I wonder if, you know, you're talking about the clarity. I mean, VMware, things are good right now. Two years ago, was looking kind of hmmm, maybe not so good, with license growth down, and now it's up, stock prices double digits, >> Stock prices almost highest >> Okay, so I want to understand the factors behind that. You mentioned the clarity around vCloud Air and the AWS agreement, clearly. The second I want to attest is, the customer reality of cloud, that I can't just ship my business to the cloud, ship my data to the cloud. I got to bring the cloud model to the data. Did that in your conversation with customers, those two factors lead to customers being more comfortable, signing longer term agreements with you guys. Is that a bit part of the tailwind? I wonder if you could discuss that. >> Yeah, Dave I think that's absolutely right. One of the things I've learned in my 25 years of IT is, you want to keep being strategic to your customers. You never want to be in a place where you're in a cul-de-sac. And I started to sense, right, not definitively, but perhaps two years ago, there was a little it of that cul-de-sac perception as our license revenue was growing, particularly on this cloud strategy. Are you trying to be a public cloud, are you not, what's your stance versus AWS as one example, and with vCloud Air, there was a little bit of that hesitation. And if you asked our sales teams, the clarifying of our cloud strategy, which last year was okay but didn't have the substance or the punch. Now you've got an AWS coming on stage, and the other cloud providers where we have substance. I think that clarifying the cloud strategy game the ability for customers to say, even while they were waiting for AWS to be shipped, the last year, three or four quarters are spending of on-premise VMware stuff has gone up, 'cause they see us as strategic. The second aspect I think is our products are now a lot more mature than they were before outside of B sphere. VMware cloud foundation, which consists of storage, networking, VSAN, NSX, and you've talked to those people on your stage, workspace one, end user computing. These have really, really helped, and I think the third factor is, we've really focused on building a very strong team, from Pat, myself, to Raghu, Rajeev, Ray, Mauricio, Robin, I think it's a world-class infrastructure, so we just added Claire Dixon as our Chief Comms Officer on eBay. This is for us now, and everyone in the rest of the organization, we want to continue building a world-class sort of warrior-style strength in numbers. >> Quick follow-up if I may, just a little Jim Kramer moment. And the financial's looking good, you just raised four billion of cheap debt, right the operating cash flow, three billion dollars, and the nice thing about the clarity around vCloud Air is, the capital expenditure, it's just a very capital-efficient model that you guys have now, and I've been saying, you can't say it, but to me the stock's undervalued. When you do the ratios and the multiples on those factors, it looks like a cheap stock to me. >> John: I would love to see you buy it because we have to disclose it, the big position in VMware. >> No, no, no. >> We don't have any stock >> I wish we did. >> We just want to keep growing and the market will fairly value us over time. >> Yeah, it will. >> Well you guys had a good team at VMware, so let's just go back and unpack that. So there was a transformation. Peter Burrows was talking about IBM over the years, had a massive transformation, so really kind of a critical moment for VMware as you're pointing out. We had this great discipline, great technology, great community folks, still there now, as you mentioned, but that transition from saying, we got to post a position, are we in cloud or not, let's make a decision and move on, and as Dave said, it's good economics behind not having a cloud, but I saw a slide that said VMware Cloud, you can still have a cloud strategy using Amazon. Okay, I get that. So the question for you is this. This is the debate that we've been having. Just like in the cryptocurrency market, you're seeing native tokens in cryptography, and then secondary tokens, just one went crazy today. With cloud, we see native cloud, and then new clouds that are going to be specialty clouds. You're seeing a huge increase the long-tail power law of cloud providers that are sitting on other clouds. We think this is a trend. How does VMware help those potential ascensior clouds, the Deloitte clouds, the farming drone cloud that's going to have unique applications? So if applications become clouds, how does VMware help that? >> That's a really good question. So first off, we have 4,400 cloud providers that built their stacks on VMware. And it could be some of these sourced. Probably the best example are companies like Rackspace, OVH, T-Systems. And we're going to continue to empower them, and I think many of them that are in country-specific areas, France, Germany, China, Asia, have laws that require data to be there, and I think they quite frankly have a long existence, and some of them like Rackspace have adapted their model to be partnering with AWS, so we're going to continue to help them, and that's our VMware cloud provider program, that's going to be great. The other phenomenon we see happening is these mini data centers starting to form at what's called the edge. So edge computing is really almost like this mobile device becoming bigger and bigger, it becomes like a refrigerator, it becomes like a mini data center, and it's not sitting in the cloud, it's actually sitting in a branch someplace or somewhere external. VMware Stack could actually become the software that powers that whole thing. So if you believe that basically cloud providers are going to be three or four or five big public clouds, a bunch of cloud providers are country-specific, or vertical-specific, again in these edge computings, VMware becomes quintessentially important to all of those, and we become, whether you call it a platform, a glue, or whatever have you, and our goal is to make sure we're pervasive in all of those. I think it's going to, world is go, going to go from mobile cloud to cloud edge, I mean the whole word of cloud and edge computing is the future. >> So you believe that there potentially could be another second coming of more CSPs exploding big time. >> Especially with edge computing, and country-specific rules. There's some countries that just won't do business with a US public cloud because of whatever reason. >> Well, many of those 4,400 would say, hey, we have to have a niche so we can compete with AWS, so we don't get AWS-ized. So what's your message to those guys now that you're sort of partnered up with AWS? >> Listen, OVH is a good example. Virtuastream's another, I'll give you two good examples. OVH, we sold vCloud Air to them. We are helping those customers be successful. I go to some of those calls jointly with them, they are based in France expending some of their presence to the US, and have got some very specific IP that makes their data centers efficient. We want to help then be successful. Some of the technology that we've built in vCloud Air, we're now licensing to them so we can them be successful. Virtustream, you know Rodney Rogers being on your show. Mission-critical apps is tough for some of the public clouds to get right. They've perfected the art, and I've known them from my SAP days. So there's going to be some of these other clouds that are going to be enormously successful in their niche, and their niche are going to get bigger and bigger. We want to make sure every one of them are successful. And I think there's a big opportunity for multiple vendors to be successful. It won't be just the top three or four public clouds. There will be some boutique usage by country or some horizontal or vertical use case. >> Good for an arms dealer. Well this is my whole point, this is what we've been getting at. We're kind of riffing in real time, little competitive strategy, we got the Harvard MBA and I'm the Babson guy, we'll arm wrestle it out here, maybe do some car karaoke together. But this brings up the question, and I've been saying for a long time on The Cube, and Dave and I have been talking about, we see a long tail, torso neck expanding, where right now it's a knife-edge, long tail, top native clouds and then nobody else. So I think we're going to see this expand out where specialty clouds are going to come out for your reasons. So that is going to open up the door, and those guys they're not going to want their own cloud. >> Sanjay: I agree. >> And that's a channel, an app, who knows? >> You look at an example, one, two other examples of specialty clouds, these are SAS vendors. If you look at two vertical companies, Viva and Guidewire. These are SAS companies that are in the life sciences and insurance space. They've been enormously successful in a space that you're probably maybe a Zapier Salesforce would have done, but they have been focused in a vertical market, insurance and life sciences. And I think there's going to be many providers the same way at the IS level or the PAS level, to also be successful and we welcome, this is going to be a large multi-cloud world. >> Edge cloud. You guys talking about the edge before. Pat had the slide of the pendulum swinging. >> Sanjay: Exactly. >> What is that edge cloud do to the existing business? Is it disruptive or is it evolutionary in your opinion? >> It's disruptive in the sense that, if you've taken a hardware-centric view of that, I think you're going to be disrupted. You take things like software-defined WAN, software-defined networking. So I think the beauty of software is that we're not depending on the size of the hardware that sits underneath it, whether it's a big data center or small edge of the cloud. We're building this to be an all-form factors, and I agree with Marc Andreessen in the sense the software's eating up the world. So given the fact that VMware >> And the edge. >> Yeah, our premise is if there's more computing that's moving to the edge, more software define happening at the edge, we should benefit from that. The hardware vendors will have to adapt, and that's good. But software becomes quintessential. Now I think the edge is showing a little bit of, like, you know, Peter Levine had a story about how cloud computing might be extinct if edge computing takes off. Because what's happening is this machine starts to get bigger and bigger and sits in a branch or in some local place, and it's away from the cloud. So I think it actually is a beautiful world where if you're willing to adapt quickly, which software lets you do, adapt quickly, I think there's a bright future as world moves cloud, mobile, and edge. >> Great stuff, Sanjay, and I was referencing car karaoke, you have on your Twitter >> Oh the carpool karaoke. >> The carpool karaoke. >> It was a fun little thing. Maybe we could do it together, three of us some time. (John laughs) >> I don't do karaoke. Final... >> Just sing, man Just be out there doing your thing. >> I embarrass myself on The Cube enough, I don't need karaoke to help there. >> David: I'm in. (laughs) >> All right, I'll do it. All right, final question for you. >> That's a deal. Let's do it. >> Final question, Michael Dell and we're talking, the world's upside down right now, the computer industry has been thrown up in the air, it's going to be upside down, reconfiguration. You've been in the business for a long time, you've seen many waves. Actually the waves now are pretty clear. What's the fallout going to be from this for customers, for the vendors, for how people buy and build relationships in this new world? >> I think there's a couple of fundamental principles. I talked about one, software, let's not repeat that. I think ecosystems rule. It's really important that you don't look at yourself as having to own the full stack, you know VMware's chosen to be hardware-dependent. Yes, we're owned by Dell, but you've seen us announce a HP partnership here, right? You've seen us do deals with Fujitsu. We had AWS Cloud and Google Cloud. So when you view the world, I love this line by Isaac Newton, he said, "I see clearly because I stand on the shoulders of giants." And to me, that's a very informed strategy to actually guide our ecosystem strategy. Who are the giants in our space? It's the companies that are relevant, with the biggest market caps. Apple, Google, Microsoft, you know, AWS is part of Amazon, and then you know, HP, EMC, Dell, so and so, we list them, by my SAP. If we're relevant to all of them, I'd love to see the momentum of VMworld and the momentum to reinvent start coalescing. Collectively there's probably a hundred thousand people who come to all of our VMware vForums. Andy Jassy told me he expects 40,000 at re:Invent, and maybe across all of his AWS summits, he has a hundred thousand. I was sharing with him an idea. Why don't we have these two amoebas of growing conferences start to coalesce where we mingle, maybe 20% goes to both conferences, but we'll come to your show and be the best software vendor, that hijacks your show, so to speak, (John laughs) I didn't use that word. But we become the best vendor, and we'll roll out the red carpet to you. Now we've got a collection of 200,000, we couldn't have done that on our own. That's an example of AWS and VMware partnering. Now it doesn't have to be exclusively AWS, we could do it with another partner too. Microsoft doesn't show up at the AWS re:Invent conference, we do. Similarly we could maybe do something very specific with Azure and VDI at the Microsoft event, or Kubernetes and Google. So for VMware, our strategy needs to be highly relevant to the power players in the ecosystem, and the guiding our software-defined strategy to make that work, and I think if we do that, you know, you could see this be a 10 billion and bigger company. >> Well it says it's not a zero sum game, >> Sanjay: No, everybody wins. >> And if you can stay in the game, everybody wins, right. >> And I think in the software-defined infrastructure space, we like our odds. We feel we could be the leading player in that software-defined area. >> And it changes and reimagines that relationship between how people consume or procure technology, because the cloud's a mosaic, as Sam Ramji was telling me earlier. >> Oh you had Sam on your show? Wonderful. >> I had him on earlier, and he sees the cloud as a mosaic. >> He's a fantastic thought leader in open source, we were deeply grateful to have him at our event today. >> Andy Jassy, your classmate and friend, collaborator, he was onstage, great performance that he gave. Really talking to your crowd, saying, "We got your back," basically. Not a barney deals, not a optical deal, we are in on it, we're investing, and we got your back. That's interesting. >> We want to be with all of the key leaders that are driving significant parts of the ecosystem, we want to be friends, our tent is large. If everybody. Provided there's, like you said, not a barney announcement, so provided there's value to the customer. If there is, our tent is large, right? We will have point competitors, you know, here and there, and you know me, I'm very competitive. >> John: (laughs) No! >> I've not named competitors too much in this show. >> Really, really. >> But, if anything now, my mind's a lot more focused on the ecosystem, and I want to make this tent large for as many, many players to come here and have a big presence at VMworld. >> And the ecosystem is reforming around this new cloud reality, and the edge is going to change that shape even further. >> Competing on value, competing in a new ecosystem requires a new way to think about relationships. >> If I could give you one other example, then. In the world of mobile, who would have thought that the most important company to mobile security and enterprise to Apple is VMware now, thanks to AirWatch, or to Samsung, whatever it might be, right. This is the world we live in, and we have to constantly adapt ourselves. So maybe next year we'll be talking about IoT or something different, and their ecosystem. >> Sanjay Poonen, COO of VMware, good friend inside The Cube, always candid. Thanks for sharing your commentary and color on the industry, VMware and your personal perspective. I'm John Furrier, Cube coverage live in Las Vegas, here on the ground floor in the VM Village. We'll be right back with more live coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's The Cube covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red hat. >> I'm joined by my co-host, Stu Miniman. Stu, this is day one of the conference: 20 keynotes, six general sessions, people from 70 countries gathered here in Boston, Massachusetts. You are a Red Hat Summit veteran. Thoughts, impressions of the first day. What has struck you really? >> So first of all, it's like Red Hat itself. The company just keeps growing. It's just one of those, you know, strong progress. We talked a little bit over the intro this morning with Dave Vellante as, what is it, 60 quarters consecutively that the company has had revenue growth. It's like, I've worked for a lot of tech companies. It's like, I remember when I worked for (mumbles) when they were doing it (mumbles). They have a miss and the stock kind of drops. IBM, you know, has had quarter and quarter and things like this, but with all of these waves and look, Red Hat's not the biggest company out there, but they are an important player in many changes in the ecosystem. This is one of my favorite developer shows that we cover at the show. Of course, Open Source, we used to say, okay, software's leaving the world and Open Source is eating software. Red Hat's right in the middle of this. I think most people agree. There is really only one way to Red Hat. There's not going to be a Red Hat of something else. There's no one else to really capture that. They got involved at a certain point in time where they could have that model, but they've extended it. They understand what they're doing. They're getting involved in a lot of interesting technologies and there's a lot of people, like most conferences that we go to, there's a lot of passionate people that are really interested, very tech savvy group here, going into all of these breakouts. Many came yesterday for some things. They're coming for a whole week to just dig in, do demos. Down on the show floor, they've got little coating challenges and VR things. I mean there's just a lot of pieces of the show and we only get to see a part of it, but I've enjoyed the customers, the executives, and only one day of three that we're covering so far. >> It is early days in the summit, but where would you say that we are in terms of the maturity of the cloud? We heard from Jim Whitehurst, the CEO, he's going to be on the program tomorrow. He talked about how cloud strategy really is the #1 thing on customers' mind. The cloud is not new and we are really evolving and is maturing, where are we? >> Right, a couple of stats from the keynote this morning. It was 84% of customers have a cloud strategy. Now those of us in the analyst world, we might say, "Well, let's see whether they really have a strategy "they understand," and 59% have a multi-cloud environment which doesn't surprise us. Most people, the joke we used to have was, you had two types of customers, those that were using Amazon and those that didn't realize that some group was using Amazon, reminds me of a comment I made earlier, about like Linux itself. There was always, 15 years ago, big companies would be like, "oh, no, we're a Unix shop," or "we're looking at windows." No, no, no, there's the guy in the corner. He's been using Linux for awhile and that's been a big driver, so cloud absolutely is maturing. I loved, it was an interesting discussion we had with Paul Cormier towards the end of the day. We were seeing Ramgji from Google talking about how we've got the infrastructure and we've got the applications. And I'm an infrastructure guy, but I knew from day one, the reason you build infrastructures is because of your application. If I can just buy SaaS, I don't care about the infrastructure underneath it. The SaaS provider sure does. We talked a lot to SaaS providers as to how they're building their solution. If I'm using infrastructure as a service, you know, there's some I need to understand the infrastructure and there's plenty of infrastructure here, everything from, there's the storage and networking teams, Open Source is permeating every corner of the environment, so it's maturing, but in many ways it's gotten more complex. Cloud was supposed to, many of us thought, simplify the environment, but boy, it seems that many of the things that we had in previous ways as it gets more mature, gets a little bit more complex. Red Hat tries to take those pieces together, build them into solutions. We've talked about there's Red Hat Linux. Enterprise Linux is the platform that can live in many environments. Open Shift is something that allows to encapsulate all of those services, things like containers, we're working with our cloud data applications, and how I want to build them, Open Shift's going to help and you know Cooper Netties goes into the mix so Red Hat is places strategic bets, and, you know, has a strong position in the number place and has big partners. It's really interesting to see. We've had a couple on already, and we'll have many on through the week from key providers in the infrastructure and cloud players out there. >> I think the theme of this year's conference is the power of the individual, and it really is. I mean, we heard from Sam Ramji who said, "This is the age of the developer." Developers have more respect, more veneration, than ever before and yet we also heard from Sandra Rivera, it is also harder than it has ever been before to be a developer because there is just so much data and it's hard to know the difference between the good data and the bad data and where you find the right insights to make decisions that drive the business on that data and if you're a developer, you might not have the business savvy to do that, so it's a real balance here that the companies and developers themselves are trying to strike. Are they doing a good job? I mean, is it still too early? >> It's funny. When you say that it makes me think of in the machine-learning space, it's how do we get the data to train the machine to understand what is good or not, and you know, I wish they'd done that for us when we all went to college because in my job, it's always like, okay, what data can we trust? Well, if you remember from Princess Bride, it was like, with Versini, it was like, well, I know a vendor told me information, so therefore, I know I can't trust that data, but if I take someone else's data, you know, it gets very confusing as it, what I'm saying, is any single piece of data a lot of times you know you can throw that out because maybe it's good, maybe it's not, but how do I get, understand the trends, understand what's going on. I love talking to practitioners here that when they're talking about their business and the impact it's had. We had one of the customers on today was like, "Look, I deployed this, and I have like $6 million "worth of savings in my business year every year. I mean, that's hard information, hard to argue with it. Now are there other solutions that might do that? Sure, but yeah, it's challenging to understand what's good data, what's not good data. As an industry, you know, whether that's the kind of the people or the machines themselves. >> I think the other question that we're all grappling with here is that, and you talked about this earlier, just talking about the evolution of Red Hat that you've seen in coming to this summit all these years. This is a company founded in 1993. Today it has a market cap of $15 billion, 2.4 billion in revenue, nearly 8,000 employees. Can a big company, and it's a big company now, can it innovate, can it truly innovate and we heard in the keynote one of the things that Jim Whitehurst was trying to do was to cultivate a startup mindset. Is that possible? >> Yeah, it's a great question, and I know, Rebecca, you and I've been talking about this throughout the week so far as to big companies have challenges because there are the structure and the organization and what drives the business. What's interesting about Red Hat, of course, is that sure they have products, but underneath it, it's all Open Source, so community is in their DNA. As Paul Cormier said, he's like "We couldn't "buy a company and do it closed-source again." They did that a couple years ago, it didn't go well. They were going to transition it, but it's been a case study that's been written up. (talking over each other) >> Me and Jim in the room alone, yes. >> Absolutely, so what's interesting is Red Hat is more like a community in many ways. As Jim Whitehurst spoke, is the open organizations so they act more like an Open Source community than they do a company, of course, that being said, they're profitable, they have employees, they have benefits, they have locations all around the world so it's been interesting to see how Red Hat adopts certain technologies, contributes to them. You know, it would be interesting to see who else Jim Whitehurst tomorrow and say okay, you know, what is a product that was developed by Red Hat versus a project that was taken in by Red Hat, something I've seen over the last three or four years, a lot of acquisitions they made, it was, let's take Open Stack for example. There is a big survey that's done twice a year that said what are people using and what are they interested in with Open Stack, and it felt like that was the buying guide for Red Hat because it was like, "Oh, okay, here's the sent-to-us stuff, "that was pretty interesting. "Well, we can't buy Konica, we'll buy Sento West," and that comes under the umbrella. "Oh, there's this storage management piece "that actually is open source that people "are using for Open Stack, well let me buy that one, too." So Red Hat has become inquisitive, but it's to get deeper engagement in the community. They are all Open Source so always there is that balance in big companies of what do I do with R & D and what do I do with M & A? And Red Hat has done both. I think they've done a good job of moving the industry forward. Innovation is a lot of times a buzz word, but they do some good stuff. They contribute a lot. People here are very positive about what's going on. Just because they haven't created the next flying car or things like that. >> But they're on that. We heard here that they're thinking about it. I mean, I think that's also, I didn't mean to ask the question insinuating that they're not innovating, but I do think that particularly at a time where we are seeing Microsoft years of no growth, Intel, stalled growth, you know, what is Red Hat's secret sauce, and also what is going to the breaking point for these other lagging enterprise companies? When will we see some new ideas and fresh perspective? >> Yeah, it's interesting 'cause we write this whole, the shift of what's happening with cloud, the wave of the machine-learning, the augmented intelligence or artificial intelligence, how much is that going to ding the traditional companies, especially the infrastructure companies. Red Hat touches it, but they're much broader. Their growth, they're an Open Source company. It's interesting. I've seen a lot of other companies, the Open Sourced-based ones, "Oh, we're not "an Open Source company. "We're an enterprise software company," or "software company." I'm sure we asked Red Hat if they were a software company, they will say well, of course, like everything we deliver is software, but at their DNA, they are Open Source, and that kind of sets them apart from the pack even though there are other examples Dave Vellante went through this morning of other companies that are heavily involved in Open Source, struggling with that how do we monetize Open Source. >> Well, is it a problem with the business model? Why is it so challenging? >> It's a great question. The first time I interviewed Jim Whitehurst, it's like "Jim, why aren't there more billion dollar Open Source companies," and his answer was, you know, Not being flippy," he's like, "Look, selling free is hard." >> Yeah, that's a great point, but I think that we should, we need to dig a little deeper and hopefully we can get to the bottom of that by day three. >> Absolutely, and I tell ya, I'm sitting here listening to, you know, we'll be doing the Cloud Foundry Summit in June there, which is pivotal as making a lot of money with that, but most of the other companies not doing so much. We were just a Docker Con. A couple weeks ago, Docker Company seems to be growing, doing well. They just changed their CEO today so hot news out on SiliconANGLE.com. Ben Golub, the CEO, I just interviewed him a couple weeks ago and now he's moving the board, but they're bringing the Chairman of the Board to be CEO, so we look at all these companies: Cloudera just IPO'd. Hortonworks is a public company. These companies that have Open Core or Open Source as a major piece of what they're doing, none have had the just measured growth and success that Red Hat does, so you know, Red Hat has a case study. It still seems to be one that stands alone category by themselves, but you know, partnering and growing and doing great, and it's exciting to cover. >> Day two, anything you're particularly excited about? >> Yeah, so I got a taste of the AWS-enhanced partnership talking about how Open Shift is going to have deeper integration and we talked a little bit with Paul Cormier so I suspect Jim Whitehurst will be talking to him about it. We have one of the main guys involved in that from Red Hat side will be on our program tomorrow. So the keynote tomorrow, I'll be watching here. Maybe there'll be a special guest during the keynote talk about that announcement some, but you know, obviously a space we watch real closely. We had Optum, one of the customers on today, he said, "I use Open Shift and I'm using Amazon and want to do it most and this is a game-changer for me," so we think this is really interest to watch, really, you talked about maturity early in this segment here, the maturity of hybrid cloud. If Amazon starts to get deeper into the data centers, partnering with companies like Red Hat and like VMware, that will help them to stave off some of the competition that's coming at them. (mumbles) to Microsoft and Google who's getting Cooper Netties everywhere. Lots more to dig in with. There's some announcements today but a lot more to come and you know, more customers, more partners, more Red Hatters. >> That's great, great. Well, we are looking forward to being back here tomorrow bright and early. Thank you for joining us. I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. We'll see you back here tomorrow. (innovative tones)

(upbeat techno music) >> Host: Live, from Boston Massachusetts, it's the Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome to day two of the Red Hat Summit here in beautiful Boston, Massachusetts. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, with my co-host, Stu Miniman. We are welcoming Jim Whitehurst, who is the president and CEO of Red Hat. Thanks so much for taking the time to sit down with us. >> Thanks, it's great to be here. >> So, I want to talk about the theme of this year's conference, which is celebrating the impact of the individual. In your keynote you talked about the goal of leadership today is to create a context for the individual to try, to modify, to fail, to just keep going. Sounds great. How do you do that? >> Well that's why I say, leadership is about creating a context for that to happen. So you have to create a safe environment for people to try and fail. And you know, this is a tough one, because somebody fails 20 times, you know, maybe it's time him to find a new career. >> Rebecca: (laughs) >> But, you have to create the opportunity for people to fail in a safe way and actually then learn from that. And one of the things I talk a lot about, especially CEOs and CIOs is, you got to create that context. The world that we used to live in was all about taking variance out, you know, Lean Six Sigma process. Innovation's all about injecting variance in, and there's no way to inject variance in without making errors. So how do you, I want to say reward making errors, but you certainly want to reward risk taking and recognize, by definition, some risks aren't going to play out. And that's all about culture. Yeah, it's about process and reward systems, but it's mainly about culture. >> So reward, risk taking, no blaming, what are some other defining elements of this culture in which individuals can feel free to take risks? >> Well, I think a big part of it is you have to celebrate the people who try things And you celebrate taking the risk. You don't necessarily celebrate the successes, right? It's like, you know, in school, you miss something, that's bad, you get something right, that's good. Well we have a tendency to say, let's celebrate the successes, versus actually celebrating the risk taking. And so, there are some processes and systems you have to put in place. You have to have systems in place to make sure no one can risk 100 million dollars. If every Red Hatter could risk 100 million dollars, we'd be in trouble. But you have to figure out how you give enough latitude, enough free time. And, I was just yesterday talking to some Red Hatters who had moved over from IBM. They said, "It's great, we can try new things." Now, try new things within a context of a certain amount of budget or a certain amount of time. So there are processes and systems you have to put in place, but ultimately it's culture more than anything else. It trumps anything else. >> Jim, in your keynote, you said, planning is dead, and that, you know, we're lousy predictors, things are changing so fast. Your role though, you're CEO of a public company that has 60 quarters of consecutive revenue growth. So, it seems you guys are doing pretty well at getting involved in some of the waves that are happening, understanding how to keep growing at a steady pace. Maybe you can reconcile that a little bit for us, as to how you're doing that. >> Yeah, so, one of the reasons that I think that we've been able to navigate a whole set of fairly significant transitions in technology is that we don't select technology, we select communities. And I think that's a really important subtlety. So, we didn't come in and say, "Oh, we like OpenStack more than we like CloudStack of Eucalyptus or the other opensource IaaS that were out five years ago. We looked and observed that OpenStack had built the biggest user base. You know the reason we're significantly involved in Kubernetes today, versus Diego, or Swarm, or the other orchestrators for containers out there, is we observed it was building the biggest community. And, we don't just glom on, we actually kind of get in and contribute ourselves. But we look more to say what are the best communities and let's get involved in that. I don't know what the Kubernetes roadmap is for the next five years, but I'm confident that it has the best community that will drive the right direction for-- >> It's probably a little over-simplified to say you looked for the VHS ecosystem versus the Betamax best technology. >> Rachael: (laughs) >> No, exactly. Exactly, but that's what we think we're good at is observing when a community is the best community. And I say that, it's not just a matter of observation. Whether it's OpenStack or Kubernetes, we get in a help think about governance, right? So, one of the things I think really helped OpenStack is we saw it had the best user community, but we help put together the governance structure, which truly made it neutral, made it open. And so, we try to actually help in doing that, but it really is about identifying communities rather than technologies. >> Is it ever possible that you could identify the right community that might have certain elements, but it's got elements that wouldn't quite work for the opensource way, can you change that community? Is it possible to go in and push a new culture into that community? >> We think we're actually pretty good at that. Now, I think there's a mix of not every community has to be the same. We often talk about, there is no opensource community. There are are literally two million open source communities. And Linux has a culture, many of our projects in JBoss. So Drools is different than Fuse that's different than others. And so, it's okay that the cultures can be different. The key is they all have to have a common element about being open, and committing to being open, and truly being a meritocracy, cause if they best ideas don't win, that's when communities fall apart. And that's actually one of the biggest places where they fall apart. So, I do think we can influence open, and I think just by our contributions we probably influence the cultures of some of those communities. But we don't try to say is there's a Red Hat way to do community. There are a lot of different ways. >> Jim, we look at the cloud space, open is one of these terms that doesn't necessarily mesh with your definition with what the cloud guys do. You guys, of course, supported Red Hat Linux in every single cloud environment that I can think of. For many years you have a expanded partnership with AWS. But, I was debating with Sam Ramji yesterday, from Google, about like, there is no open cloud. There are clouds that use opensource, opensource can live here, but all the big public clouds are built on their platforms and openness is a challenge there. What's your thought as to how you fit there? And then we'll want to get into some of the discussion of the AWS announcement. >> Yeah, sure. So, in defense of the public clouds, it's impossible to offer a physical offering that has hardware in a software stack without it having some of your technologies that don't make it totally open, right? Or transferable. >> Is this why we never saw a Red Hat Open Cloud? >> Well, it's just that, yeah, it doesn't quite make sense in our context for that reason as well. So the role we try to play is, we do try to play the abstracter role, and we do that at multiple levels. So, Red Hat Enterprise Linux runs across a physical data center, virtual data center, and the major clouds. And that's an abstraction point that we think adds value. Because all the way back to 15 years ago, Red Hat Enterprise Linux meant that you could run the same application on a Dell server or an IBM, or an HP Blade, right? And so, we're working to apply that at the cloud level, certainly at the operating system level, but, because of all the services and the growth containers, we needed to do it at another level, and that's what we're doing with OpenShift. So, OpenShift allows you to run on physical, or on virtual in your own data center, on the major public clouds, and take advantages of the services underneath, but do it in a little bit more of an abstracted way. >> All right. So, we had Optum on yesterday, who was also part of the keynote. He's using OpenShift. He's using AWS. He was very excited about the opportunity of OpenShift being able to extend those Amazon services. You and Andy Jassy doing a video this morning. Give us a little bit of the inside look. You know, how long did it take to put this together? My understanding, it's not shipping today, but coming a little bit later this year. Give us a little bit behind what happened. >> Yeah, so. You know, this really started off with a breakfast Andy and I had in January, where we said, look, our teams are working really well together, and we've been partners since 2008, but kind of from the bottom up, I think we were taking very much an incremental approach of what we could do together, what customers we could work with. And, I think it's a little bit in the context of they've been out some other kind of big deals with some other vendors, and so, why don't we think about, what's a true net new offering. So let's now just talk about, oh, running it on Amazon's lower cost. I mean, clearly there's a cost thing there, but, what can we do that's like, wow, actually changes the life of some of the people who are using our technologies. And so what we decided is, well, wouldn't it be amazing, literally at breakfast we were talking about it, if OpenShift, which is used by enterprises all around the world, could actually leverage the thousands of services that AWS is putting out, right? So, right now, if you want to use all of these services, you have to be on AWS, which is great, but there are a lot of customers for whatever reasons, for regulatory reasons, or just by choice or economics, who decided to run on-premise or elsewhere. And so, by making those thousands of services available, it's a win-win all around. For Amazon, it's a ability to expose some really amazing innovation to many, many thousands, hundreds of thousands of developers, and for us it's a way to expose all this innovation to our developers, without kind of forcing someone necessarily to go all-in on cloud. Now, I'll say that we were literally, you know, Sunday night still getting the final contract done. >> Rebecca: (laughing) >> But I would say, when you have a really clear, differentiated source of value for customers, the deal came together, I think, relatively quickly. >> Yeah, et cetera. One of the things we've been trying to reconcile a little bit is, when you talk to customers about where their applications live, that hybrid or multi-cloud world, versus the offerings that are out there, it was a mismatch, because, you know, they were like, oh, I'm using VMware in one place, and I'm using Amazon somewhere else. I've got my SaaS in a different place. We're starting to see Amazon mature their discussion of hybrid through partnerships of yours. OpenShift looks like something that can really help enable customers to kind of get their arms around those environments in many locations. >> Well, I think so. One of the things, if you really go and talk to developers, developers really don't care that much about infrastructure software, and they shouldn't care. And, it's interesting. I think developers right now are really enamored by containers, because containers somewhat makes their life easy. But, I was talking to some of the folks in Red Hat that deal a lot with developers, and they say, ultimately developers shouldn't want to care and don't want to care about even containers. They just want to write code, and they want code to work, right? And one of the cool things about OpenShift is that's kind of what you're doing, is you're saying write code. Yeah, use any of the services you want from anywhere you want to use it. They're all there. They're all available. You don't have to worry about, I want this service, so I have to run this on Amazon, or, hey, I got my database on-premise, so I got to run here. Let's just make it easy. And I think that's one of the cool things about this announcement that's cool for developers, but it's also unique that it's something that only we could bring together. >> Yeah, serverless is something that's been gaining a lot of buzz to kind of say, right, it's underneath there. There's probably going to be containers, but my people writing applications don't want to worry about that. Speak to, it's the application affinity and that tie to kind of modernization of applications that seems to be one of the biggest challenges we've been facing for the last couple of years. Why are companies coming to Red Hat, working across your solution set to help them with that challenge of their older applications, but also kind of building the new businesses. >> Well I think for a couple reasons. So first off, if we really think about what Red Hat is, we call ourselves a software company, but we give away all our IP, so that's a stretch, right? >> Rebecca: (laughs) >> You know, when we think about our overall mission is, we think, there's enterprise customers here with a set of challenges, and there's all this phenomenal innovation happening in opensource communities. How do we build a bridge between those. So certainly that's product. So we create opensource, well, products out of opensource projects. It's about architecture, and then it's about process. And we talked about open innovation labs. But in part of thinking about that's what we do, we obviously start off say, well, what are enterprise problems, and what are technologies that help solve those problems? So, one of the things that we've driven so hard into our container platform is the ability to run stateful applications, right? So it's great to talk about scale-out and cloud native, and we certainly do that, but go talk to any CIO and 99.9% of their application portfolio is stateful. And so, we think about that and we drive those needs. And the reason we're the second largest contributor of Kubernetes isn't just because we're nice people. It's because we're trying to drive enterprise needs into these projects. And so, I do think that technologies that would ultimately emerge, and the products we're able to put out, help enterprises consume opensource in a way that is actually value adding. >> I wanted to ask you about the examples that you used in the keynote today. The three that you highlighted were governance. >> Jim: Yeah. >> And I think that that was really interesting because you're showing how opensource is bringing new innovations and ideas into government and agencies not necessarily known for innovation. Where do you see the future of technology in government coming together? >> Well, one of the reasons I wanted to use government examples is that I actually wanted to highlight, well, what's the role of government when you start thinking about innovation. So, certainly, we could've brought up a lot of examples. You know, yesterday the Optum folks that are big users of our platform, and they've kind of created a context for innovation among their developers. But the reason I wanted to highlight governments, and really try to do it from regions around the world, was to say there is a role for government when you start thinking about what is the new system underneath the economy. So, in the 1940s and 50s in the US the interstate highway system was an important piece of infrastructure. We've always thought about roads and bridges and airports as important for creating the underpinnings for an economy, and that's really, really important in a world of physical goods. And it's not that we don't have physical goods now, but more and more we still have to start thinking about information assets. And look, I've gone and seen the FCC and advocated for net neutrality and all that stuff. And so, certainly broadband as a fundamental infrastructure's important, but I think that government plays a more important role. Whether that's education, and we could spend two hours on education, but even kind of creating these contexts where you make data available. That's what I loved about the British-Columbia example. But broadly it's like, how do you create a context for more citizen participation. I think it's just as important in the 21st Century as roads and bridges were in the 20th Century. >> Jim, you mentioned net neutrality. I'm curious your take on just kind of the global discussion that's going on. A lot of your customers here are international, you've got open communities. The question about net neutrality, trade. It feels like many people, we interviews the president of ICANN a few years ago, and was worried about, you know, are we going to have seven internets, not one internet, because there are certain Asian, and even like Germany, worried about cutting things off. How does that impact your thinking? Do you guys get involved in some of those governmental discussions? >> Well we do. A matter of fact, we actually do have, I'd say a small government affairs team that advocates around these issues. Because we see it too, even with OpenShift, where you start saying, well, different privacy laws in Europe versus the US, but what if someone's running OpenShift in Europe, but it's actually instantiated in the US, and who can get access to what data. Those are really, really important issues. And it is a little bit like, you know, we ought to pick the same railroad gauge, right? To some extent, we need to have a set of consistent policies, not necessarily in every area, but enough that you can actually have the free flow of information, without worrying about, oh my god, I'm exposing myself to felony privacy issues because I'm hosting this application on a cloud that happens to be in the US. So there's some real issues that we have to work through. And they're so bleeding edge and so complex, I'm not sure that we're quite ready to get those done. But these are going to be critical, critical to the economy of the 21st Century. >> The other thing, I can't let you go without asking you about just the opensource business models themself. I've been listening to podcasts. We had a couple of companies go IPO recently. >> Jim: Yeah. >> They're better involved, and they're like, oh wait, I'm an enterprise company, I'm a software company. VC, you shouldn't invest in opensource because they can't monetize what they're doing. What's your take on the investment and business prospect for the other companies that are not Red Hat? >> Well, look, I'm thrilled to see Cloudera going public. Obviously Hortonworks public. MuleSoft recently. And I know some of those are hybrid models, they have an open core, and they have some other proprietary around it. But look, it's still dollars that are getting invested in opensource software I think we've clearly proven a model that you can have 100% opensource and build a successful business. For a whole set of technologies, it's clearly a better innovation model. The thing that I continue to push people is, don't think about it as selling IP. And this is, I've actually had conversations with several university presidents about this same issue. University education is more about the content. Don't be scared of MOOCs, right? And most people kind of get that, a university education, yeah, content's a part of it. But there are 50 other things that make up an education. So that's when I always come back to opensource companies and say, assume the content's free, because it's going to be better if it's totally free. And now think about, how do you build a model around the fact that content's free. And, I think education's a great one. Your industry in media is certainly one that needs to continue to innovate around business models as well. So, rather than saying, let's take a development model that's superior in a number of regards for a set of technologies, especially around infrastructure, and say, let's hamper it, and make it work in the old school business model. Let's continue to work to innovate business models that allow the innovation to happen, because it's going to happen, right? You do have to recognize that so much of what you're seeing in opensource is really a byproduct of what Google and Facebook and others are doing. And that's going to continue, so the best innovation's going to come there. You got to figure out business models that work for it. >> You got to figure them out Thank you so much, Jim. Jim Whitehurst, we appreciate your time. >> It's great to be here. Thanks so much for having me. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. We will return with more from the Red Hat Summit. (upbeat techno music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE, covering Google Cloud Next '17. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Google Next 2017, 10,000 people are in San Francisco, SiliconANGLE media, we've got reporters there, as well as the Wikibon analysts. I've been up there for the analyst's event, some of the keynotes, and we're getting thought leaders, partners, really getting lots of viewpoints as to what's happening, not just in the Google Cloud, but really the multi-Cloud world. And that's why I'm really excited to bring back a guest that we've had on the program before, Craig Mcluckie, who, four months ago, was with Google, but he's now the CEO of Heptio, and he's also one of the co-creators of Kubernetes, which anybody that's watching the event, definitely has been hearing, plenty about Kubernete so, welcome back to the program. >> Thanks for having me back. >> Yeah, absolutely, I know you were part of, a little event that kind of went before the Google Cloud event, brought in some people in the Cloud ecosystem, talk about a lot was going on. Maybe start us off with, what led you to kind of pop out of Google, what is Heptio, and how does that kind of extend what you're doing with Kubernetes when you're at Google? >> Certainly. So Heptio is a company that has been created, by my co-founder Joe and myself, to bring Kubernetes-- >> Stu: That's Joe Beda. >> Joe Beda. >> Stu: Yeah. To bring Kubernetes to enterprises, and the thing that really motivated me to start this company was the sense that there was not a unfettered Kubernetes company in existence. I spoke to a lot of organizations, that were having tremendous success with Kubernetes. It was transforming the way they approached infrastructure management. It created new levels of portability for their workloads. But they wanted to use Kubernetes on their own terms, in ways that made sense to them. And, most every other organization that is creating a Kubernetes distro, has attached it to other technologies. It's either attached to an opinionated operating system, or it's attached to a specific cloud environment, or it's attached to a Paas, and it just didn't meet the way that most of the customers I saw wanted to use the technology. I felt that a key missing part of this ecosystem, was a company that would meet the open source community where it is and help customers that just needed a little bit more help. A little more help with training, bit of documentation support, and the tools they needed to make themselves successful in the environments that they wanted to operate in. And that's what motivated Joe and I to start this company. >> Yeah, and it's interesting, cause you look at the biggest contributors, Google's there, you've got Red Hat, you've got, as you said, people that have their viewpoint as to where that fits. I think that that helps the development overall, but maybe you can help us unpack there. Why do you want, is it separate? Is there that opinionated-ness? What's inherently sub-optimal about that? (laughing) >> I think part of the key value in Kubernetes is the fact that it supports a common framework in a highly heterogonous world. Meaning you can mix together a broad variety of things, to your needs. So you could mix together, the right operating system, in the right hosting environment, with the right networking stack. And you could run general applications that are then managed and performed in a very efficient and easy to use way. And, one of the things that I think is really important, is this idea that customers should have choice, they should be picking the infrastructure based on the merits of the infrastructure. They should pick the OS that works for them, and they should be able to put together a system that operates tremendously well. And, I think it's particularly critical, at this juncture, that a layer emerges that allows customers, and service providers, to mix together the sort of things that they want to use, and consume, in a way that's agnostic to the infrastructure and the operating environment. I see the mainstream cloud providers, taking us in some ways back to the world of the mainframe. If you think about what we're starting to see, with companies like Amazon, who are spectacularly successful in the market, is this world where you have this deeply vertically integrated service provider, that provides not only the compute, but also the set of core services, and almost everything else that you need to run. And, at the end of the day, it's getting to a point where, a customer has to kind of pick their service provider. And, you know, for using IBM, but it was also sub-optimal from an ecosystem perspective. It inhibited innovation in many ways. And it was the emergence of Wintel, that sort of Windows and Intel ecosystem that really opened up the vendor ecosystem, and drove a tremendous amount of innovation and advancement. And, you know, when I think about what enterprise customers want and need today, they want that abstraction. They want a safe way to separate out the set of services that run their business, the set of technologies that they build and maintain, from the underlying infrastructure. And I think that's what driving a lot of the popularity of Kubernetes, is this idea that it is a logical infrastructure abstraction, that lets you pick the environment that you operate in, purely based on the merits of the environment. >> Yeah, it's been a struggle, I mean, I know through my entire career in IT, we've had that discussion of "do I just standardize on what we have? Cause, the enterprise today, absolutely. Every time I put a new technology in, it doesn't displace, it adds to it. So, I talked to lots of customers, still using mainframe. They're using the Wintel stuff, they using public cloud, they're using, you know, yes and and and, and therefore, managing it, orchestrating it, doing all those pieces that are difficult. The challenge when I put an abstraction layer in, and one of the big challenges is, how to really get the full value out of the pieces that I had. Sam Ramji said that, when he was at Cloud Foundry, they were trying to make it so that you really don't care which cloud, whether it's on premises or public cloud environments. And he said one of the reasons he joined Google was because he felt you couldn't make, if you went least common denominator or something, there was things Google was doing that nobody else can do. So there's always that balance of, "can I put an abstraction layer or virtualize something, and take advantage of it?" Or "do I just go all in with one vendor?" I mean, IBM back in the day, did lots of great things to make it simple, and cloud is trying to make it simple, lots of things, Amazon of course, no doubt that they're trying to vertically integrate everything they would like to do. You know, all your services. So, where do you see that balance? And, it's interesting, does it solve customers the best to be able to say "okay, you can take your mess that you have", and therefore, is this a silver bullet to help them solve it? >> I think it's a really good point. And, consistently, as I look through history, a lot of the platforms that people have pursued, that created this sort of complete decoupling, introduced this lowest common denominator problem, where you had to trade off a set of things that you really wanted with the capabilities of the platform. And, you know, I think that absolutely, in some cases, it makes a tremendous amount of sense, to invest in a vendor specific technology. So let's take an example out of Google, Cloud Spanner. Cloud Spanner has, it's literally the only, globally consistent, well right now it's regionally consistent, but it's literally the only globally consistent relational store available. There is nothing like it. The CockroachDB folks are building something that emulates some of the behavior, but without the true time API, that sort of atomic clock, you know, crazy infrastructure that Google's built. It adds very little utility. And so, in certain applications and certain workloads, if what you really want is a globally replicated, highly consistent relational data store, there is literally only one provider on the planet that would deliver it, which is Google. However, you might look at, you know, something that Amazon provides, and they may have some other service. Perhaps you've already built something on RedShift, and you want to be able to use that. Or Microsoft might offer up some other technologies that make sense to you. And, I think it's really important for enterprises to have the option. There's times when, for a given workload, it makes tremendous amount of sense, to put on a vendor, if you're looking to run something that has, deep machine learning hooks, or needs some other science fiction technology that Google's bringing to the world. It makes sense to run that on Google. For applications that are potentially integrated into a productivity suite, if you're an Office 365 user, it probably makes sense to host it on Microsoft. And then, perhaps there's some other pieces that you run on Amazon. And I don't think it's going to be pick one cloud provider and live in the static world forever. I think the landscape is constantly evolving and shifting. And, one of the things technologies like Kubernetes provide is an option. An option to move, an option to decide which specific services you want to pull through and use in which application. Recognizing that those are going to bind you to that cloud provider in perpetuity, but not necessarily pulling the entirety of your IT structure through. >> Yeah, Craig, I'm curious. When I look out as to kind of the people that commentate on this space, one of the things they say "Kubernetes is interesting, but this whole hybrid cloud thing, kill all the on premises stuff, public cloud's really where it's at." I know when I talk to most companies, they got plenty of on premises stuff, most infrastructure that is bought is still, there's a lot of it going on premises. So companies are sorting out what applications go where, what data goes where. Diane Green, suddenly 5% of the world's data really is in the public cloud today. What's your view on kind of that on premises, public cloud piece, and Kubernetes' role there? >> Yeah, I think it's a great question. And I have had some really interesting conversations with CIOS in the past. I remember in my very earliest days, pooh-poohing the idea of the private cloud, and having a really intense CIO look across the thing and he was like "you will pry my data centers from my cold, dead hands". (Stu laughing) He literally said that to me. And so, there's certainly a lot of passion in this space, and I think, at the end of the day, one has to be pragmatic. You know, first of all, one has to recognize that, if you're an organization that has bought significant data center footprint, you're probably going to want to continue to use that asset that you've acquired, and that's, you're going to want to use that in perpetuity. If you're a company, and most large companies are also naturally heterogonous, meaning as you go through an acquisition, the acquired portion of your company may have a profoundly different IT portfolio. You know, may have a different set of environments. And so, I think the world certainly benefits from an abstraction layer that allows you to train your engineers with a certain set of skills, and then be highly decoupled from the infrastructure environment you run in. And I think, again, Kubernetes is delivering some of that promise in a way that I think really resonates with customers. >> Absolutely, and even, we've been telling people for years "stop building data centers"? You know, there's very few companies that want to build data centers even, yes Google talks about their data centers, but Amazon? Gets their data center space from lots of other players there. But, if I stop building data centers today, I'm going to have em for another 25 30 years, and even it, what am I going to owe myself? I talked to plenty of the big financial guys, they're not going to move all of their information. They want to have it under their control, whether it's their own data center, a hosted managed environment there. So, we're going to be living with this multi-cloud thing for a long time. >> There is another thing that I don't think people have fully internalized yet, which is in many ways, the way that cloud provider data centers are structured is around power sources. At the end of the day, it's around cheap power and cooling. As you start looking at the dynamics of what's happening to our energy grid, it's no longer being quite as centralized as it was. And, it starts to beg the question "does it make sense to think about smaller units that are more distributed? Does it make sense to start really thinking about Edge compute capacity?" The option to deploy something really close to your customers if you need low latency and attainment scenarios. Or, the option to push a lot of capacity into your distribution center, if you're running high, heavy IoT workloads, where you just don't want to put all that data on the network. And so I think that, again, certainly, I think that people underestimate the power of the Amazon, Microsoft and Google. People that are still building data centers today, don't realize quite how remarkable the vendors at that scale are, in terms of their ability to build and run these things. But I do think that there are some interesting options, in terms of regional locality, data sovereignty, Edge latency, that legitimize, other types of deployment. >> Yeah, and you talked about IoT, Edge computing absolutely is something that comes up a lot there. At AWS Re:Invent last year, Amazon put their serverless solution using Greengrass, out at the Edge because there's tons of centers that I might not have the networking, or I can't have the latency I need to do the compute there. How does things like serverless at the Edge, and IoT play into the discussion of Kubernetes? >> I think it plays really well, insofar as, Kubernetes, it's not intrinsically magic. What it has done is created a relatively simple, and turns out, pretty reusable abstraction that lets you run a broad array of workloads. I wouldn't say it's exactly cracked the serverless paradigm in terms of event-driven, low cost of activation computing, but that's something that can certainly be built on top of it. The thing that it does do, is it provides you the ability to manage an application as if it were software as a service, in a location that is remote from you, by providing you a very principled, automated framework for operations. >> Alright, Craig, last thing I want you to do is give us an update on Heptio. How many people do you have? How are you engaging with customers? What's the business model look like for that? What can you share? >> So, we're currently 13 people. We've been in business for four months, and we've been able to hire some really amazing folks, out of the distributed systems communities. We are at a point where we're starting to provide our first supported configurations of Kubernetes. We don't position ourselves as a distribution provider, we rather like to think of ourselves as an organization that's invested in helping users get the most of the Upstream community. Right now, our focus is on training, support, and services, and over time, if we do that really well, we do aspire to provide a more robust set of product capabilities that help organizations succeed. For now, the thing that we focus most relentlessly on is helping customers manage down the cost of supporting a cluster. How do we create a better way for folks to understand what a configuration should look like? When are they likely to encounter issues? And if they do encounter those issues, helping them resolve them in the lowest friction and least painful way possible. >> Alright, and any relationships with the public cloud guys? Or what do you work with when you talk about OpenStack, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, what's the relationship and how do those work? >> So we announced the first joint quick start for Kubernetes with the Amazon folks last Tuesday. And that's been going pretty well. We're getting a lot of positive feedback around that. And we're now starting to think more broadly in terms of providing supported configurations on premises and then on Microsoft. So Amazon, for us, was the obvious starting point. It felt like an under-supported community from a Kubernetes perspective, insofar as, Microsoft had our friend Brenda Burns, who helped us build communities in the first place. And he's been doing some great work to bring Kubernetes to the Azure container service. What we really wanted to do was to make sure that Kubernetes runs well on Amazon, and that it is naturally integrated into the Amazon operating model, so cloud formation templates, and we have a really principled way to manage, maintain, upgrade and support those clusters. >> Alright, Craig Mcluckie, co-creator of Kubernetes, and CEO of Heptio. Really appreciate you coming here to our Palo Alto studio, helping us as we get towards the end of two days of live coverage of Google Cloud Next 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE, covering Google Cloud Next '17. (funky techno music) >> Welcome back to our live coverage here of Google Next 2017, an event that last year was focused only on Google Cloud. They've actually expanded a bit, they're talking about G Suite, talking about some of the devices, and they bring in a really broad and diverse community, so when I talk to the Google people, it's not one show, it's a handful of shows. I went to the analyst event. My guest for this segment is Chris Wahl, who came in through the community event. So, excited to get that angle. Chris, thanks so much for doing the drive with me from San Francisco down to Palo Alto. For those of us not in the area, it's a 45 minute drive, it's not too bad. It's a beautiful, sunny day. It's great to catch up with you and thanks for coming. >> Always glad to be on, love being a CUBE Alumni, so, I think it's my third time. >> Wow, a three-time Alumni. It's like if you've been a host of Saturday Night Live for like seven times, you know you get the special jacket. - Automatically. >> Things like that. You're getting up there. Three times. It's like, you're not quite in Pak Elsinger area, but you have passed, you've been on more than Andy Jassey now. >> Wow, cool. >> I think that that's pretty impressive. >> Bucket list, accomplished. >> Exactly, so, what brings you to the Google event and tell us a little bit about the community event. >> Yeah, to be honest, I thought it was a spam email at first. I just got an invite saying, hey, we have this Google event going on, and I'm not really plugged in to the Google Universe too much. So I said, cool, I'm interested, I'll take a look. Got invited out by Sarah Novotny to a community focus day. >> Host: Sarah's awesome. Also a CUBE Alum, of course. >> Yeah, Alum, and ran OSCON I think, as a boarder or some kind of management facility for quite a while. So yeah, the Google Cloud Next is this week but on Tuesday. They actually had a bunch of influencers, evangelists, community members, out to spend time with all sorts of Google-y Google-ers, talking around what their vision is around kind of bridging the gap to the enterprise, what their thought around Kubernetes, and just really the community in general were. Which was kind of cool because it was all fresh and clean and new for me. So, it was really great to taste the Kool-Aid, and see how delicious it could be. >> Yeah, so I'm curious what your take is. I remember I did a panel at Interop a couple of years ago, and it was like, basically, hyper-scale, you're-not-Google, so what do you need to do, how do you do it, do you just use Google stuff, can you code like Google, can you act like Google, or are you just an enterprise and you're forced to live in the past. >> I think over the last couple of years, the idea of the Sight Reliability Engineers come out and been more focused on the enterprise and kind of dovetailed into the Dev-Op story. So, it was really interesting to hear, not only trying to talk to the enterprise, but also how they're trying to get the enterprise to kind of stop being the traditional enterprise that it's been. Which I think entirely, it's something that we practitioners have always been trying to do. No one wants to be on-call all the time and fixing these flaming disasters and things like that. But at the same time, you have to recognize that moving that much intrinsic culture poison from one side to the next is hard. They're admitting that too, it's like, we wold love for you guys to be more Google-y, and to use the tools that we have here, but we're not sure you even know what the tools are or how to use them, or what kind of documentation is necessary, or what meet-ups we can go to find my people, you know, the practitioners. >> I want to channel our friends, the Geek Whisperers, and alright Chris, so how did you transition out of being a VMware guy to someone that does cool and interesting things now, because VMware is no longer the coolness. >> That's been the vibe, yeah. It's something I personally have been trying to, I don't think in any technology you want to be that technology specific. VMware, love it, have been doing it for 12 something years, but you don't just want to be pigeon-holed in that kind of silo. Which is actually why I wanted to come out and talk with the folks at Google around what they're doing to build a community. I think it was Sam something-or-other-- >> Host: Sam Ramji. >> Sam Ramji actually came up and said, you know, as long as we're going to exist as a company, we're going to have this community day. It's the first one they've done, and they plan to do it basically infinitely forever, because they realized they had the analysts, and things like that out there, they had all the engineers and developers, but what were they missing? The folk in the trenches that are trying to adopt and use this sort of technology. I like that aspect of it. There weren't any huge, mind-shattering results that were out there, except for I think, me personally, I like that Google kind of admitted that yeah, they hadn't been doing the best job around interfacing with the community and getting IT practitioners and operation-centric folks into the fold, welcoming into the bosom of Google, and that they were trying to work on that. And it's like, okay, awesome. Let's have a conversation, which the other half of the day was an un-conference, where we literally broke up into groups, that we decided ourselves as like a democracy of Google decision-making. We formed eight different groups. Some focused on containers, I actually sat in in a two hour session where we just kind of riffed on abstraction layers and where we should we start working. Is it at the container level, is it at the hypervisor level, is it at the virtual machine level? And it was neat because everyone had a completely different idea and background around that. I felt like I was an alien in that conversation for a lot of it 'cause they're working on solving problems that are totally alien to my world. So I liked all that. >> It's an interesting crowd when the server-less stuff got talked about in the keynote today-- >> Yes! >> There was a big clap and I loved Brian Stevens. He's like, functions are just fragments of code, and they get applause, you know, he's kind of like-- (Chris laughs) >> It's like either remark, I got applause for that. >> Yeah, yeah, it's pretty funny. But you know, that's the kind of people that come to this show, right? So, you checked out a thing called, what was it, Code Labs or something like that? Maybe you could talk a little bit about that. >> Yeah, yeah, there was, I had some notes there that I'd written down. Certification in Code Labs, specifically. So Code Labs was interesting 'cause it's a place that you can, you have to book it in advance, like a day in advance, and from about 11 to seven each day, they just have Google-y Google-ers, you know, very Google-y people out there that say alright, here's all our various APIs, such as the new one where you can query a video and say I'm looking for, I think in the keynote, they had "find me baseball" in this video, and it actually shows you in the timeline where baseball occurs. There's also things to do image tagging and things like that. And, I don't know, it might be difficult to grasp that API interaction at first. And so you can sit down, and they'll show you how to write code in the languages of your choice. Obviously Go is very prominent. I'm a PowerShell developer, so it's like, alright, how would you write that in Curl, and that's maybe our bridge to one another, since I don't know Go and they don't know PowerShell, or the person I was working with. So that was cool, to hear how they approach those things, because I've typically done it as an Ops person. I'm typically looking at it from the perspective of I'm trying to automate some task and feed it into an orchestration engine. And I'm not super deep on APIs in general, I like them, but ... That was cool, I liked that you're basically getting to meet with really, really awesome engineers and SREs to pick their brain and their vast decades of experience on writing code. To work with APIs and things that are Google-centric. So that was awesome. >> So it sounds like you didn't feel like this was a marketing show, right, - [Chris] No! >> that they bring in the engineers, the technical people, I mean it's not far being from San Franscisco from the Google-Plex, the Mothership is nearby. >> Thats's a good point because a lot of these shows have just become a sales pitch in a wolf's clothing or a conference clothing, and this was ... I've never met so many really, really talented engineers all concentrated in one spot. I mean, you've got the rock stars that I think everybody knows, like Sarah, and Kelsey, that are very available and personable, but you also have a whole army of people that have a huge amount of passion around writing code and understand what your problems are and wanting to talk to you. I felt like a person, which I've been a Google customer since, I guess, Google came out, you know, Google apps and things like that. This is really the first time I really started putting faces to the technical practitioners that work there, and they're really interested and excited with what my mundane kind of problems. So, that's kind of cool. >> Yeah, I found they're definitely, they're listening, they're talking, it's really good, because right, we at our firm, we've used Google for a while and it's like, oh wait I have a challenge. Who do I call, who do I email? Nope, you should just watch the YouTube video and use it. C'mon, aren't you smart enough to use these things right? You know, was kind of how we all felt for a while. Interesting. Kinder, gentler Google than we've knew in the past? >> They had the Google leaders circle and the various groups that you could join online, but it was just, you can't fake that kind of raw passion, and I sat down with some of the SREs at the community day, and it was really just, talk to me about what you do, and why, and what tools you use, and what can we do to be better? More specifically, the Dev Rel, the developer relations folks were just awesome. And they're like, is our title threatening? What meet-up should we go to? What can we do to make your life better? And I just kind of, at first, said a few comments and realized, no, this is real. They want to know my day one and day two operations, so that they can find the right tools, or if there isn't one, build one. And I don't know, that's great. I've never seen that at a conference before. So I'm hooked. I definitely plan to go again. >> Alright, so anything you didn't see that you were hoping to see, follow-up that you want to have, other cool stuff going on that you want to share? >> I almost want to do like a plea to Google that throughout the community today and at the conference, there's been a lot of commentary and some, kind of some references to, oh we don't want to tell you how to do things, we don't want to tell you how to build architecture in a certain way. Please do tell me how to do those things. At least give me a reference architecture, or some example environments, because I feel like a lot of it is just, here's some cool things you can do, kind of in isolation. Or here are some things with Kubernetes that kind of exist outside of reality. I'm looking for, alright, I don't have any of that stuff, how do I onboard into that? Here's a white paper, and that kind of jazz. >> Yeah, and we saw, you know, I hate to always bring up AWS, but AWS went from here's this giant toolbox with all these things to right, here's some services, here are some tracks, here are some, not wizards, but you know, templates you can follow for certain things. Here are people that are probably similar to you and, boy, with Google with their AI and ML and all their things that they can do to help us sort out all the TLAs that they've got to. (Chris laughs) You know, they should be able to help going forward because, yeah, Google should be able to personalize all that to be able to work a little bit better for us as opposed to us having to just kind of figure it out a little bit. I know you played with the Google Cloud a little bit yourself-- - Yeah. >> And it wasn't as simple as you were hoping, right? >> It was hard. (both laugh) I mean-- >> Host: C'mon, if you can't figure it out, you know-- >> I don't feel like I'm the sharpest tool in the shed, but I was like, I'm kind of the representative layman ops person, and it felt very convoluted, complex, the documentation was fragmented. I'm like, just give me the wizard so that I can start fishing for myself. I just do that first hit for free, and then I'll take care of it beyond that. So, that would be my one ask to Google as a whole, but otherwise I think the tooling and the people, and the culture are all there, it's just build a few more things and I think we've got some interesting entanglements at the enterprise level once that's done. >> Okay, want to give me the final word, what's going on with you other than, your hometown, your new hometown of Austin, Texas. South By coming, so I know there's a lot of music and fun going on but, what's happening in your world, what's happening with Rubrik? >> Oh yeah, I'll mention South By, definitely will be there, I will not be available online or anything. I'm going to be going into sequester mode and just listen to music with my co-host actually. If you listen to the Datanauts podcast, with Ethan Banks, he's going to come by. So, we'll be at the show I guess if you want to hang out with us, hit us up. Otherwise, Rubrik's been awesome. It's definitely a rocket ship ride and it was actually dove-tailed into quite a few conversations I had while at Google Next. Because movement of data into and around clouds is non-trivial, so that's where the Cloud Data Management world that we're in, kind of fits into that equation, and why I personally wanted to go to this show, but also professionally I thought that there'd be some inroads there to discuss with the other practitioners. >> Absolutely, the whole infrastructure side and how that plays in the public cloud, how it plays with Sass, there's a lot of those discussions going on. Congrats, you guys have been growing some good buzz. You guys have been hiring, too, so check Chris out for all that. We'll be back, lots more coverage here of the Google Cloud Next 2017, you're watching theCUBE. (funky techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE, covering Google Cloud, Next 17. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're here live in the Palo Alto Studios, SiliconANGLE Media, is theCUBE's new 4400 square foot studio, here in our studio, this is our sports center. I'm here with Stu Miniman, analyst at Wikibon on the team. I was at the event all day today, drove down to Palo Alto to give us the latest in-person updates, as well as, for the past two days, Stu has been at the Analyst Summit, which is Google's first analyst summit, Google Cloud. And Stu, we're going to break down day one in the books. Certainly, people starting to get onto there. After-meetups, parties, dinners, and festivities. 10,000 people came to the Google Annual Cloud Next Conference. A lot of customer conversations, not a lot of technology announcements, Stu. But we got another day tomorrow. >> John, first of all, congrats on the studio here. I mean, it's really exciting. I remember the first time I met you in Palo Alto, there was the corner in ColoSpace-- >> Cloud Air. >> A couple towards down for fries, at the (mumbles) And look at this space. Gorgeous studio. Excited to be here. Happy to do a couple videos. And I'll be in here all day tomorrow, helping to break down. >> Well, Stu, first allows us to, one, do a lot more coverage. Obviously, Google Next, you saw, was literally a blockbuster, as Diane Greene said. People were around the block, lines to get in, mass hysteria, chaos. They really couldn't scale the event, which is Google's scale, they nailed the scale software, but scaling event, no room for theCUBE. But we're pumping out videos. We did, what? 13 today. We'll do a lot more tomorrow, and get more now. So you're going to be coming in as well. But also, we had on-the-ground, cause we had phone call-ins from Akash Agarwal from SAP. We had an exclusive video with Sam Yen, who was breaking down the SAP strategic announcement with Google Cloud. And of course, we have a post going on siliconangle.com. A lot of videos up on youtube.com/siliconangle. Great commentary. And really the goal was to continue our coverage, at SiliconANGLE, theCUBE, Wikibon, in the Cloud. Obviously, we've been covering the Cloud since it's really been around. I've been covering Google since it was founded. So we have a lot history, a lot of inside baseball, certainly here in Palo Alto, where Larry Page lives in the neighborhood, friends at Google Earth. So the utmost respect for Google. But really, I mean, come on. The story, you can't put lipstick on a pig. Amazon is crushing them. And there's just no debate about that. And people trying to put that out there, wrote a post this morning, to actually try to illustrate that point. You really can't compare Google Cloud to AWS, because it's just two different animals, Stu. And my point was, "Okay, you want to compare them? "Let's compare them." And we're well briefed on the Cloud players, and you guys have the studies coming out of Wikibon. So there it is. And my post pretty much sums up the truth, which is, Google's really serious about the enterprise. Their making steps, there's some holes, there's some potential fatal flaws in how they allow customers to park their data. They have some architectural differences. But Stu, it's really a different animal. I mean, it's apples and oranges in the Cloud. I don't think it's worthy complaining, because certainly Amazon has the lead. But you have Microsoft, you have Google, you have Oracle, IBM, SAP, they're all kind of in the cluster of this, I call "NASCAR Formation", where they're all kind of jocking around, some go ahead. And it really is a race to get the table stake features done. And really, truly be serious contender for the enterprise. So you can be serious about the enterprise, and say, "Hey, I'm serious about the enterprise." But to be serious winner and leader, are two different ball games. >> And a lot to kind of break down here, John. Because first of all, some of the (mumbles) challenges, absolutely, they scaled that event really big. And kudos to them, 10,000 people, a lot of these things came together last minute. They treated the press and analysts really well. We got to sit up front. They had some good sessions. You just tweeted out, Diane Greene, in the analyst session, and in the Q&A after, absolutely nailed it. I mean, she is an icon in the industry. She's brilliant, really impressive. And she's been pulling together a great team of people that understand the enterprise. But who is Google going after, and how do they compete against so of the other guys, is really interesting to parse. Because some people were saying in the keynote, "We heard more about G Suite "than we heard about some of the Cloud features." Some of that is because they're going to do the announcements tomorrow. And you keep hearing all this G Suite stuff, and it makes me think of Microsoft, not Amazon. It makes me think of Office 365. And we've been hearing out of Amazon recently, they're trying to go after some of those business productivity applications. They're trying to go there where Microsoft is embedded. We know everybody wants to go after companies like IBM and Oracle, and their applications. Because Google has some applications, but really, their strength is been on the data. The machine the AI stuff was really interesting. Dr. Fei-Fei Li from Stanford, really good piece in the keynote there, when they hired her not that long ago. The community really perked up, and is really interesting. And everybody seems to think that this could be the secret weapon for Google. I actually asked them like, in some of the one-on-ones, "Is this the entry point? "Are most people coming for this piece, "when it's around these data challenges in the analytics, "and coming to Google." And they're like, "Well, it's part of it. "But no, we have broad play." Everything from devices through G Suite. And last year, when they did the show, it was all the Cloud. And this year, it's kind of the full enterprise suite, that they're pulling in. So there's some of that sorting out the messaging, and how do you pull all of these pieces together? As you know, when you've got a portfolio, it's like, "Oh well, I got to have a customer for G Suite." And then when the customer's up there talking about G Suite for a while, it's like, "Wait, it's--" >> Wait a minute. Is this a software? >> "What's going on?" >> Is this a sash show? Is this a workplace productivity show? Or is this a Cloud show? Again, this is what my issue is. First of all, the insight is very clear. When you start seeing G Suite, that means that they've got something else that they are either hiding or waiting to announce. But the key though, that is the head customers. That was one important thing. I pointed out in my blog post. To me, when I'm looking for it's competitive wins, and I want to parse out the G Suite, because it's easy just to lay that on, Microsoft does it with 365 of Office, Oracle does it with their stuff. And it does kind of make the numbers fuzzy a little bit. But ultimately, where's the beef on infrastructure as a service, and platform as a service? >> And John, good customers out there, Disney, Colgate, SAP as a partner, HSBC, eBay, Home Depot, which was a big announcement with Pivotal, last year, and Verizon were there. So these are companies, we all know them. Dan Greene was joking, "Disney is going to bring their magic onto our magic. "And make that work." So real enterprise use cases. They seem to have some good push-around developers. They just acquired Kaggle, which is working in some of that space. >> Apogee. >> Yeah, Apogee-- >> I think Apogee's an API company, come on. What does that relate to? It has nothing to do with the enterprise. It's an API management solution. Okay, yes. I guess it fits the stack for Cloud-Native, and for developers. I get that. But this show has to nail the enterprise, Stu. >> And John, you remember back four years ago, when we went to the re:Invent show for the first time, and it was like, they're talking to all the developers, and they haven't gotten to the enterprise. And then they over-pivoted to enterprise. And I listen to the customers that were talking and keynote today, and I said, "You know, they're talking digital transformation, "but it's not like GE and Nike getting up on stage, "being like, "'We're going to be a software company, "'and we're hiring lots--'" >> John: Moving our data center over. >> They were pulling all of over stuff, and it's like, "Oh yeah, Google's a good partner. "And we're using them--" >> But to be fair, Stu. Let's be fair, for a second. First of all, let's break down the keynotes. And then we'll get to some of the things about being fair. And I think, one, people should be fair to Diane Greene, because I think that the press and the coverage of it, looking at the media coverage, is weak. And I'll tell you why it's weak. Cause everyone has the same story as, "Oh, Google's finally serious about Cloud. "That's old news. "Diane Greene from day one says "we're serious with the Cloud." That's not the story. The story is, can they be a serious contender? That's number one. On the keynote, one, customer traction, I saw that, the slide up there. Yeah, the G Suite in there, but at least they're talking customers. Number two, the SAP news was strategic for Google. SAP now has Google Cloud platform, I mean, Google Cloud support for HANA, and also the SAP Cloud platform. And three, the Chief Data Science from AIG pointed. To me, those were the three highlights of the keynote. Each one, thematically, represents at least a positive direction for Google, big time, which is, one, customer adoption, the customer focus. Two, partnerships with SAP, and they had Disney up there. And then three, the real game changer, which is, can they change the AI machine learning, TensorFlow has a ton of traction. Intel Xeon chips now are optimized with TensorFlow. This is Google. >> TensorFlow, Kubernetes, it's really interesting. And it's interesting, John, I think if the media listened to Eric Schmidt at the end, he was talking straight to them. He's like, "Look, bullet one. "17 years ago, I told Google that "this is where we need to go. "Bullet two, 30 billion dollars "I'm investing in infrastructure. "And yes, it's real, "cause I had to sign off on all of this money. And we've been all saying for a while, "Is this another beta from Google. "Is it serious? "There's no ad revenue, what is this?" And Diane Greene, in the Q&A afterwards, somebody talked about, "Perpetual beta seems to be Google." And she's like, "Look, I want to differentiate. "We are not the consumer business. "The consumer business might kill something. "They might change something. "We're positioning, "this a Cloud that the enterprise can build on. "We will not deprecate something. "We'll support today. "We'll support the old version. "We will support you going forward." Big push for channel, go-to-market service and support, because they understand that that-- >> Yeah, but that's weak. >> For those of us that used Google for years, understand that-- >> There's no support. >> "Where do I call for Google?" Come on, no. >> Yeah, but they're very weak on that. And we broke that down with Tom Kemp earlier, from Centrify, where Google's play is very weak on the sales and marketing side. Yeah, I get the service piece. But go to Diane Greene for a second, she is an incredible, savvy enterprise executive. She knows Cloud. She moved from server to virtualization. And now she can move virtualization to Cloud. That is her playbook. And I think she's well suited to do that. And I think anyone who rushes to judgment on her keynote, given the fail of the teleprompter, I think is a little bit overstepping their bounds on that. I think it's fair to say that, she knows what she's doing. But she can only go as fast as they can go. And that is, you can't like hope that you're further along. The reality is, it takes time. Security and data are the key points. On your point you just mentioned, that's interesting. Because now the war goes on. Okay, Kubernetes, the microservices, some of the things going on in the applications side, as trends like Serverless come on, Stu, where you're looking at the containerization trend that's now gone to Kubernetes. This is the battleground. This is the ground that we've been at Dockercon, we've been at Linux, CNCF has got huge traction, the Cloud Native Compute Foundation. This is key. Now, that being said. The marketplace never panned out, Stu. And I wanted to get your analysis on this, cause you cover this. Few years ago, the world was like, "Oh, I want to be like Facebook." We've heard, "the Uber of this, and the Airbnb of that." Here's the thing. Name one company that is the Facebook of their company. It's not happening. There is no other Facebook, and there is no other Google. So run like Google, is just a good idea in principle, horizontally scalable, having all the software. But no one is like Google. No one is like Facebook, in the enterprise. So I think that Google's got to downclock their messaging. I won't say dumb down, maybe I'll just say, slow it down a little bit for the enterprise, because they care about different things. They care more about SLA than pricing. They care more about data sovereignty than the most epic architecture for data. What's your analysis? >> John, some really good points there. So there's a lot of technology, where like, "This is really cool." And Google is the biggest of it. Remember that software-defined networking we spent years talking about? Well, the first big company we heard about was Google, and they got up of stage, "We're the largest SDN deployer in the world on that." And it's like, "Great. "So if you're the enterprise, "don't deploy SDN, go to somebody else "that can deliver it for you. "If that's Google, that's great." Dockercon, the first year they had, 2014, Google got up there, talked about how they were using containers, and containers, and they spin up and spin down. Two billion containers in a week. Now, nobody else needs to spin up two billion containers a week, and do that down. But they learned from that. They build Kubernetes-- >> Well, I think that's a good leadership position. But it's leadership position to show that you got the mojo, which again, this is again, what I like about Google's strategy is, they're going to play the technology card. I think that's a good card to play. But there are some just table stakes they got to nail. One is the certifications, the security, the data. But also, the sales motions. Going into the enterprise takes time. And our advice to Diane Greene was, "Don't screw the gold Google culture. "Keep that technology leadership. "And buy somebody, "buy a company that's got a full blown sales force." >> But John, one of the critiques of Google has always been, everything they create, they create like for Google, and it's too Googley. I talked to a couple of friends, that know about AWS for a while, and when they're trying to do Google, they're like, "Boy, this is a lot tougher. "It's not as easy as what we're doing." Google says that they want to do a lot of simplicity. You touched on pricing, it's like, "Oh, we're going to make pricing "so much easier than what Amazon's doing." Amazon Reserved Instances is something that I hear a lot of negative feedback in the community on, and Google's like, "It's much simpler." But when I've talked to some people that have been using it, it's like, "Well, generally it should be cheaper, "and it should be easier. "But it's not as predictable. "And therefore, it's not speaking to what "the CFO needs to have. "I can't be getting a rebate sometime down the road. "Based on some advanced math, "I need to know what I'm going to be getting, "and how I'm going to be using it." >> And that's a good point, Stu. And this comes down to the consumability of the Cloud. I think what Amazon has done well, and this came out of many interviews today, but it was highlighted by Val Bercovici, who pointed out that, Amazon has made their service consumable by the enterprise. I think that's important. Google needs to start thinking about how enterprises want to consume Cloud, and hit those points. The other thing that Val and I teased at, was kind of some new ground, and he coined the term, or used the term, maybe he coined it, I'm not sure, empathy. Enterprise empathy. Google has developer empathy, they understand the developer community. They're rock solid on open source. Obviously, their mojo's phenomenal on technology, AI, et cetera, TensorFlow, all that stuff's great. Empathy for the enterprise, not there. And I think that's something that they're going to have to work on. And again, that's just evolution. You mentioned Amazon, our first event, developer, developer, developer. Me and Pat Gelsinger once called it the developer Cloud. Now they're truly the enterprise Cloud. It took three years for Amazon to do that. So you just can't jump to a trajectory. There's a huge amount of diseconomies of scale, Stu, to try and just be an enterprise player overnight, because, "We're Google." That's just not going to fly. And whether it's sales motions, pricing and support, security, this is hard. >> And sorting out that go-to-market, is going to take years. You see a lot of the big SIs are there. PwC, everywhere at the show. Accenture, big push at the show. We saw that a year or two ago, at the Amazon show. I talked to some friends in the channel, and they're like, "Yeah, Google's still got work to do. "They're not there." Look, Amazon has work to do on the go-to-market, and Google is still a couple-- >> I mean, Amazon's not spring chicken here. They're quietly, slowly, ramming up. But they're not in a good position with their sales force, needs to be where they want to be. Let's talk about technology now. So tomorrow we're expecting to see a bunch of stuff. And one area that I'm super excited about with Google, is if they can have their identity identified, and solidified with the mind of the enterprise, make their product consumable, change or adjust or buy a sales force, that could go out and actually sell to the enterprise, that's going to be key. But you're going to hear some cool trends that I like. And if you look at the TensorFlow, and the relationship, Intel, we're going to see Intel on stage tomorrow, coming out during one of the keynotes. And you're going to start to see the Xeon chip come out. And now you're starting to see now, the silicon piece. And this has been a data center nuisance, Stu. As we talked about with James Hamilton at Amazon, which having a hardware being optimized for software, really is the key. And what Intel's doing with Xeon, and we talked to some other people today about it, is that the Cloud is like an operating system, it's a global computer, if you want look at that. It's a mainframe, the software mainframe, as it's been called. You want a diversity of chipsets, from two cores Atom to 72 cores Xeon. And have them being used in certain cases, whether it's programmable silicon, or whether it's GPUs, having these things in use case scenarios, where the chips can accelerate the software evolution, to me is going to be the key, state of the art innovation. I think if Intel continues to get that right, companies like Google are going to crush it. Now, Amazon, they do their own. So this is going to another interesting dynamic. >> Yeah, it was actually one of the differentiating points Google's saying, is like, "Hey, you can get the Intel Skylake chip, "on Google Cloud, "probably six months before you're going to be able to "just call up your favorite OEM of choice, "and get that in there." And it's an interesting move. Because we've been covering for years, John, Google does a ton of servers. And they don't just do Intel, they've been heavily involved in the openPOWER movement, they're looking at alternatives, they're looking at low power, they're looking at from their device standpoint. They understand how to develop to all these pieces. They actually gave to the influencers, the press, the analysts, just like at Amazon, we all walked home with Echo Dot, everybody's walking home with the Google Homes. >> John: Did you get one? >> I did get one, disclaimer. Yeah, I got one. I'll be playing with it home. I figured I could have Alexa and Google talking to each other. >> Is it an evaluation unit? You have to give it back, or do you get to keep? >> No, I'm pretty sure they just let us keep that. >> John: Tainted. >> But what I'm interested to see, John, is we talk like Serverless, so I saw a ton of companies that were playing with Alexa at re:Invent, and they've been creating tons of skills. Lambda currently has the leadership out there. Google leverages Serverless in a lot of their architecture, it's what drives a lot of their analytics on the inside. Coming into the show, Google Cloud Functions is alpha. So we expect them to move that forward, but we will see with the announcements come tomorrow. But you would think if they're, try to stay that leadership though there, I actually got a statement from one of the guys that work on the Serverless, and Google believes that for functions, that whole Serverless, to really go where it needs to be, it needs to be open. Google isn't open sourcing anything this week, as far as I know. But they want to be able to move forward-- >> And they're doing great at open source. And I think one of the things, that not to rush to judgment on Google, and no one should, by the way. I mean, certainly, we put out our analysis, and we stick by that, because we know the enterprise pretty well, very well actually. So the thing that I like is that there are new use cases coming out. And we had someone who came on theCUBE here, Tarun Thakur, who's with Datos, datos.io. They're reimagining data backup and recovery in the Cloud. And when you factor in IoT, this is a paradigm shift. So I think we're going to see use cases, and this is a Google opportunity, where they can actually move the goal post a bit on the market, by enabling these no-use cases, whether it's something as, what might seem pedestrian, like backup and recovery, reimagining that is huge. That's going to take impact as the data domains of the world, and what not, that (mumbles). These new uses cases are going to evolve. And so I'm excited by that. But the key thing that came out of this, Stu, and this is where I want to get your reaction on is, Multicloud. Clearly the messaging in the industry, over the course of events that we've been covering, and highlighted today on Google Next is, Multicloud is the world we are living in. Now, you can argue that we're all in Amazon's world, but as we start developing, you're starting to see the emergence of Cloud services providers. Cloud services providers are going to have some tiering, certainly the big ones, and then you're going to have secondary partner like service providers. And Google putting G Suite in the mix, and Office 365 from Microsoft, and Oracle put in their apps in their Clouds stuff, highlights that the SaaS market is going to be very relevant. If that's the case, then why aren't we putting Salesforce in there, Adobe? They all got Clouds too. So if you believe that there's going to be specialism around Clouds, that opens up the notion that there'll be a series of Multicloud architectures. So, Stu-- >> Stu: Yeah so, I mean, John, first of all-- >> BS? Real? I mean what's going on? >> Cloud is this big broad term. From Wikibon's research standpoint, SaaS, today, is two-thirds of the public Cloud market. We spend a lot of time talking-- >> In revenue? >> In revenue. Revenue standpoint. So, absolutely, Salesforce, Oracle, Infor, Microsoft, all up there, big dollars. If we look at the much smaller part of the world, that infrastructures a service, that's where we're spending a lot of time-- >> And platforms a service, which Gartner kind of bundles in, that's how Gartner looks at it. >> It's interesting. This year, we're saying PaaS as a category goes away. It's either SaaS plus, I'm sorry, it's SaaS minus, or infrastructure plus. So look at what Salesforce did with Heroku. Look at what company service now are doing. Yes, there are solutions-- >> Why is PaaS going away? What's the thesis? What's the premise of that for Wikibon research? >> If we look at what PaaS, the idea was it tied to languages, things like portability. There are other tools and solutions that are going to be able to help there. Look at, Docker came out of a PaaS company, DockCloud. There's a really good article from one of the Docker guys talking about the history of this, and you and I are going to be at Dockercon. John, from what I hear, we're going to spending a lot of time talking about Kubernetes, at Dockercon. OpenStack Summit is going to be talking a lot about-- >> By the way, Kubernetes originated at Google. Another cool thing from Google. >> All right, so the PaaS as a market, even if you talk to the Cloud Foundry people, the OpenShift people. The term we got, had a year ago was PaaS is Passe, the nice piffy line. So it really feeds into, because, just some of these categorizations are what we, as industry watchers have a put in there, when you talk to Google, it's like, "Well, why are they talking about G Suite, "and Google Cloud, and even some of their pieces?" They're like, "Well, this is our bundle "that we put together." When you talk to Microsoft, and talk about Cloud, it's like, "Oh, well." They're including Skype in that. They're including Office 365. I'm like, "Well, that's our productivity. "That's a part of our overall solutions." Amazon, even when you talk to Amazon, it's not like that there are two separate companies. There's not AWS and Amazon, it's one company-- >> Are we living in a world of alternative facts, Stu? I mean, Larry Ellison coined the term "Fake Cloud", talking about Salesforce. I'm not going to say Google's a fake Cloud, cause certainly it's not. But when you start blending in these numbers, it's kind of shifting the narrative to having alternative facts, certainly skewing the revenue numbers. To your point, if PaaS goes away because the SaaS minuses that lower down the stack. Cause if you have microservices and orchestration, it kind of thins that out. So one, is that the case? And then I saw your tweet with Sam Ramji, he formally ran Cloud Foundry, he's now at Google, knows his stuff, ex-Microsoft guy, very strong dude. What's he take? What's his take on this? Did you get a chance to chat with Sam at all? >> Yeah, I mean, it was interesting, because Sam, right, coming from Cloud Foundry said, what Cloud Foundry was one of the things they were trying to do, was to really standardize across the clouds. And of course, little bias that he works at Google now. But he's like, "We couldn't do that with Google, "cause Google had really cool features. And of course, when you put an abstraction layer on, can I actually do all the stuff? And he's like, "We couldn't do that." Sure, if you talked to Amazon, they'll be like, "Come on. "Thousand features we announced last year, "look at all the things we have. "It's not like you can just take all of our pieces, "and use it there." Yes, at the VM, or container, or application microservices layer, we can sit on a lot of different Clouds, public or private. But as we said today, the Cloud is not a utility. John, you've been in this discussion for years. So we've talked about, "Oh, I'm just going "to have a Cloud broker, "and go out in a service." It's like, this is not, I'm not buying from Domino's and Pizza Hut, and it's pepperoni pizza's a pepperoni pizza. >> Well, Multicloud, and moving workloads across Clouds, is a different challenge. Certainly, I might have to some stuff here, maybe put some data and edge my bets on leveraging other services. But this brings up the total cost of ownership problem. If you look at the trajectory, say OpenStack, just as a random example. OpenStack, at one point, had a great promise. Now it's kind of niched down into infrastructural service. I know you're going to be covering that summit in Boston. And it's going to be interesting to see how that is. But the word in the community is, that OpenStack is struggling because of the employment challenges involved with it. So to me, Google has an opportunity to avoid that OpenStack kind of concept. Because, talking about Sam Ramji, open source is the wildcard in all of this. So if you look at a open source, and you believe that that PaaS layer's thinning down, to infrastructure and SaaS, then you got to look at the open source community, and that's going to be a key area, that we're certainly watching, and we've identified, and we've mentioned it before. But here's my point. If you look at the total cost of ownership. If I'm a customer, Stu, I'm like, "Okay, if I'm just going to move to the Cloud, "I need to rely and lean on my partner, "my vendor, my supplier, "Amazon, or Google, or Microsoft, whoever, "to provide really excellent manageability. "Really excellent security. "Because if I don't, I have to build it myself." So it's becoming the shark fin, the tip of the iceberg, that you don't see the hidden cost, because I would much rather have more confidence in manageability that I can control. But I don't want to have to spend resources building manageability software, if the stuff doesn't work. So there's the issue about Multicloud that I'm watching. Your thoughts? Or is that too nuance? >> No, no. First of all, one of the things is that if I look at what I was doing on premises, before versus public Cloud, yes, there are some hidden costs, but in general I think we understand them a little bit better in public Cloud. And public Cloud gives us a chance to do a do-over for this like security, which most of us understand that security is good in public Cloud. Now, security overall, lots of work to do, challenges, not security isn't the same across all of them. We've talked to plenty of companies that are helping to give security across Clouds. But this Multicloud discussion is still something that is sorting out. Portability is not simple, but it's where we're going. Today, most companies, if I'm not really small, have some on-prem pieces. And they're leveraging at least one Cloud. They're usually using many SaaS providers. And there's this whole giant ecosystem, John, around the Cloud management platforms. Because managing across lots of environment, is definitely a challenge. There's so many companies that are trying to solve them. And there's just dozens and dozens of these companies, attacking everything from licensing, to the data management, to everything else. So there's a lot of challenges there, especially the larger you get as a company, the more things you need to worry about. >> So Stu, just to wrap up our segment. Great day. Wanted to just get some color on the day. And highlighting some parody from the web is always great. Just got a tweet from fake Andy Jassy, which we know really isn't Andy Jassy. But Cloud Opinion was very active to the hashtag, that Twitter handle Cloud Opinion. But he had a medium post, and he said, "Eric Schmidt was boring. "Diane Greene was horrible. "Unfortunately, day one keynote were missed opportunity, "that left several gaps, "failed to portray Google's vision for Google Cloud. "They could've done the following, A, "explain the vision for the Cloud, "where do they see Google Cloud going. "Identify customer use cases that show samples "and customer adoption." They kind of did that. So discount that. My favorite line is this one, "Differentiate from other Cloud providers. "'We're Google damn it,' isn't working so well. "Neither is indirect shots as S3 downtime, "didn't work either as well as either. "Where is the customer's journey going? "And what's the most compelling thing for customers?" This phrase, "We're Google damn it," has kind of speaks to the arrogance of Google. And we've seen this before, and always say, Google doesn't have a bad arrogance. I like the Google mojo. I think the technology, they run hard. But they can sometimes, like, "Customer support, self-service." You can't really get someone on the phone. It's hard to replies from Google. >> "Check out YouTube video. "We own that too, don't you know that?" >> So this is a perception of Google. This could fly in the face, and that arrogance might blow up in the enterprise, cause the enterprises aren't that sophisticated to kind of recognize the mojo from Google. And they, "Hey, I want support. "I want SLAs. "I want security. "I want data flexibility." What's your thoughts? >> So Cloud Opinion wrote, I thought a really thoughtful piece leading up to it, that I didn't think was satire. Some of what he's putting in there, is definitely satire-- >> John: Some of it's kind of true though. >> From the keynote. So I did not get a sense in the meetings I've been in, or watching the keynote, that they were arrogant. They're growing. They're learning. They're working with the community. They're reaching out. They're doing all the things we think they need to do. They're listening really well. So, yes, I think the keynote was a missed opportunity overall. >> John: But we've got to give, point out that was a teleprompter fail. >> That was a piece of it. But even, we felt with a little bit of polish, some of the interactions would've been a little bit smoother. I thought Eric Schmidt's piece was really good at end. As I said before, the AI discussion was enlightening, and really solid. So I don't give it a glowing rating, but I'm not ready to trash it. And tomorrow is when they're going to have the announcements. And overall, there's good buzz going at the show. There's lots going on. >> Give 'em a letter. Letter grade. >> For the keynote? Or the show in general? >> So far, your experience as an analyst, cause you had the, again, to give them credit, I agree with you. First analyst conference. They are listening. And the slideshow, you see what they're doing. They're being humble. They didn't take any real direct shots at its competitors. They were really humble. >> And that is something that I think they could've helped to focus one something that differentiated a little bit. Something we had to pry out of them in some of the one-on-ones, is like, "Come on, what are you doing?" And they're like, "We're winning 50, 60% of our competitive deals." And I'm like, "Explain to us why. "Because we're not hearing it. "You're not articulating it as well." It's not like we expect them, it's like, "Oh wait, they told us we're arrogant. "Maybe we should be super humble now." It's kind of-- >> I don't think they're thinking that way. I think my impression of Google, knowing the companies history, and the people involved there, and Diane Greene in particular, as you know from the Vmware days. She's kind of humble, but she's not. She's tough. And she's good. And she's smart. >> And she's bringing in really good people. And by the way, John, I want to give them kudos, really supported International Women's Day, I love the, Fei-Fei got up, and she talked about her, one of her compatriots, another badass woman up there, that got like one of the big moments of the keynote there. >> John: Did they have a woman in tech panel? >> Not at this event. Because Diane was there, Fei-Fei was there. They had some women just participating in it. I know they had some other events going on throughout the show. >> I agree, and I think it's awesome. I think one of the things that I like about Google, and again, I'll reiterate, is that apples and oranges relative to the other Cloud guys. But remember, just because Amazon's lead is so far ahead, that you still have this jocking of position between the other players. And they're all taking the same pattern. Again, this is the same thing we talked about at our other analysis, is that, certainly at re:Invent, we talked about the same thing. Microsoft, Oracle, IBM, and now Google, are differentiating with their apps. And I think that's smart. I don't think that's a bad move at all. It does telegraph a little bit, that maybe they got, they could add more to show, we'll see tomorrow. But I don't think that's a bad thing. Again, it does make the numbers a little messy, in terms of what's what. But I think it's totally cool for a company to differentiate on their offering. >> Yeah, definitely. And John, as you said, Google is playing their game. They're not trying to play Amazon's game. They're not, Oracle's thing was what? You kind of get a little bit of the lead, and kind of just make sure how you attack and stay ahead of what they're doing, going to the boating analogy there. But Google knows where they're going, moving themselves forward. That they've made some really good progress. The amount of people, the amount of news they have. Are they moving fast enough to really try to close a little bit on the Amazon's world, is something I want to come out of the show with. Where are customers going? >> And it's a turbulent time too. As Peter Burris, our own Peter Buriss at Wikibon, would say, is a turbulent time. And it's going to really put everyone on notice. There's a lot to cover, if you're an analyst. I mean, you have compute, network storage, services. I mean, there's a slew of stuff that's being rolled out, either in table stakes for existing enterprises, plus new stuff. I mean, I didn't hear a lot of IoT today. Did you hear much IoT? Is there IoT coming to you at the briefing? >> Come on. I'm sure there's some service coming out from Google, that'll help us be able to process all this stuff much faster. They'll just replace this with-- >> So you're in the analyst meeting. I know you're under NDA, but is there IoT coming tomorrow? >> IoT was a term that I heard this week, yes. >> So all right, that's a good confirmation. Stu cannot confirm or deny that IoT will be there tomorrow. Okay, well, that's going to end day one of coverage, here in our studio. As you know, we got a new studio. We have folks on the ground. You're going to start to see a new CUBE formula, where we have in-studio coverage, and out in the field, like our normal CUBE, our "game day", as we say. Getting all the signal, extracting it from that noise out there, for you. Again, in-studio allows us to get more content. We bring our friends in. We want to get the content. We're going to get the summaries, and share that with you. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, day one coverage. We'll see you tomorrow for another full day of special coverage, sponsored by Intel, two days of coverage. I want to thank Intel for supporting our editorial mission. We love the enterprise, we love Cloud, we love big data, love Smart Cities, autonomous vehicles, and the changing landscape in tech. We'll be back tomorrow, thanks for watching.