(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE. We're covering Red Hat Summit 2022. We're going to wrap up now, Dave Vellante, Paul Gillin. We want to introduce you to Stephanie Chan, who's our new correspondent. Stephanie, one of your first events, your very first CUBE event. So welcome. >> Thank you. >> Up from NYC. Smaller event, but intimate. You got a chance to meet some folks last night at some of the after parties. What are your overall impressions? What'd you learn this week? >> So this has been my first in-person event in over two years. And even though, like you said, is on the smaller scale, roughly around 1000 attendees, versus it's usual eight to 10,000 attendees. There's so much energy, and excitement, and openness in these events and sessions. Even before and after the sessions people have been mingling and socializing and hanging out. So, I think a lot of people appreciate these in-person events and are really excited to be here. >> Cool. So, you also sat in some of the keynotes, right? Pretty technical, right? Which is kind of new to sort of your genre, right? I mean, I know you got a financial background but, so what'd you think of the keynotes? What'd you think of the format, the theater in the round? Any impressions of that? >> So, I think there's three things that are really consistent in these Red Hat Summit keynotes. There's always a history lesson. There's always, you know, emphasis in the culture of openness. And, there's also inspirational stories about how people utilize open source. And I found a lot of those examples really compelling and interesting. For instance, people use open source in (indistinct), and even in space. So I really enjoyed, you know, learning about all these different people and stories. What about you guys? What do you think were the big takeaways and the best stories that came out of the keynotes? >> Paul, want to start? >> Clearly the Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9 is a major rollout. They do that only about every three years. So that's a big deal to this audience. I think what they did in the area of security, with rolling out sigstore, which is a major new, I think an important new project that was sort of incubated at Red Hat. And they're trying to put in to create an open source ecosystem around that now. And the alliances. I'm usually not that much on partnerships, but the Accenture and the Microsoft partnerships do seem to be significant to the company. And, finally, the GM partnership which I think was maybe kind of the bombshell that they sort of rushed in at the last minute. But I think has the biggest potential impact on Red Hat and its partner ecosystem that is really going to anchor their edge architecture going forward. So I didn't see it so much on the product front, but the sense of Red Hat spreading its wings, and partnering with more companies, and seeing its itself as really the center of an ecosystem indicates that they are, you know, they're in a very solid position in their business. >> Yeah, and also like the pandemic has really forced us into this new normal, right? So customer demand is changing. There has been the shift to remote. There's always going to be a new normal according to Paul, and open source carries us through that. So how do you guys think Red Hat has helped its portfolio through this new normal and the shift? >> I mean, when you think of Red Hat, you think of Linux. I mean, that's where it all started. You think OpenShift which is the application development platforms. Linux is the OS. OpenShift is the application development platform for Kubernetes. And then of course, Ansible is the automation framework. And I agree with you, ecosystem is really the other piece of this. So, I mean, I think you take those three pieces and extend that into the open source community. There's a lot of innovation that's going around each of those, but ecosystems are the key. We heard from Stefanie Chiras, that fundamental, I mean, you can't do this without those gap fillers and those partnerships. And then another thing that's notable here is, you know, this was, I mean, IBM was just another brand, right? I mean, if anything it was probably a sub-brand, I mean, you didn't hear much about IBM. You certainly had no IBM presence, even though they're right across the street running Think. No Arvind present, no keynote from Arvind, no, you know, Big Blue washing. And so, I think that's a testament to Arvind himself. We heard that from Paul Cormier, he said, hey, this guy's been great, he's left us alone. And he's allowed us to continue innovating. It's good news. IBM has not polluted Red Hat. >> Yes, I think that the Red Hat was, I said at the opening, I think Red Hat is kind of the tail wagging the dog right now. And their position seems very solid in the market. Clearly the market has come to them in terms of their evangelism of open source. They've remained true to their business model. And I think that gives them credibility that, you know, a lot of other open source companies have lacked. They have stuck with the plan for over 20 years now and have really not changed it, and it's paying off. I think they're emerging as a company that you can trust to do business with. >> Now I want to throw in something else here. I thought the conversation with IDC analyst, Jim Mercer, was interesting when he said that they surveyed customers and they wanted to get the security from their platform vendor, versus having to buy these bespoke tools. And it makes a lot of sense to me. I don't think that's going to happen, right? Because you're going to have an identity specialist. You're going to have an endpoint specialist. You're going to have a threat detection specialist. And they're going to be best of breed, you know, Red Hat's never going to be all of those things. What they can do is partner with those companies through APIs, through open source integrations, they can add them in as part of the ecosystem and maybe be the steward of that. Maybe that's the answer. They're never going to be the best at all those different security disciplines. There's no way in the world, Red Hat, that's going to happen. But they could be the integration point. And that would be, that would be a simplifying layer to the equation. >> And I think it's smart. You know, they're not pretending to be an identity in access management or an anti-malware company, or even a zero trust company. They are sticking to their knitting, which is operating system and developers. Evangelizing DevSecOps, which is a good thing. And, that's what they're going to do. You know, you have to admire this company. It has never gotten outside of its swim lane. I think it's understood well really what it wants to be good at. And, you know, in the software business knowing what not to do is more important than knowing what to do. Is companies that fail are usually the ones that get overextended, this company has never overextended itself. >> What else do you want to know? >> And a term that kept popping up was multicloud, or otherwise known as metacloud. We know what the cloud is, but- >> Oh, supercloud, metacloud. >> Supercloud, yeah, here we go. We know what the cloud is but, what does metacloud mean to you guys? And why has it been so popular in these conversations? >> I'm going to boot this to Dave, because he's the expert on this. >> Well, expert or not, but I mean, again, we've coined this term supercloud. And the idea behind the supercloud or what Ashesh called metacloud, I like his name, cause it allows Web 3.0 to come into the equation. But the idea is that instead of building on each individual cloud and have compatibility with that cloud, you build a layer across clouds. So you do the hard work as a platform supplier to hide the underlying primitives and APIs from the end customer, or the end developer, they can then add value on top of that. And that abstraction layer spans on-prem, clouds, across clouds, ultimately out to the edge. And it's new, a new value layer that builds on top of the hyperscale infrastructure, or existing data center infrastructure, or emerging edge infrastructure. And the reason why that is important is because it's so damn complicated, number one. Number two, every company's becoming a software company, a technology company. They're bringing their services through digital transformation to their customers. And you've got to have a cloud to do that. You're not going to build your own data center. That's like Charles Wang says, not Charles Wang. (Paul laughing) Charles Phillips. We were just talking about CA. Charles Phillips. Friends don't let friends build data centers. So that supercloud concept, or what Ashesh calls metacloud, is this new layer that's going to be powered by ecosystems and platform companies. And I think it's real. I think it's- >> And OpenShift, OpenShift is a great, you know, key card for them or leverage for them because it is perhaps the best known Kubernetes platform. And you can see here they're really doubling down on adding features to OpenShift, security features, scalability. And they see it as potentially this metacloud, this supercloud abstraction layer. >> And what we said is, in order to have a supercloud you got to have a superpaz layer and OpenShift is that superpaz layer. >> So you had conversations with a lot of people within the past two days. Some people include companies, from Verizon, Intel, Accenture. Which conversation stood out to you the most? >> Which, I'm sorry. >> Which conversation stood out to you the most? (Paul sighs) >> The conversation with Stu Miniman was pretty interesting because we talked about culture. And really, he has a lot of credibility in that area because he's not a Red Hat. You know, he hasn't been a Red Hat forever, he's fairly new to the company. And got a sense from him that the culture there really is what they say it is. It's a culture of openness and that's, you know, that's as important as technology for a company's success. >> I mean, this was really good content. I mean, there were a lot, I mean Stefanie's awesome. Stefanie Chiras, we're talking about the ecosystem. Chris Wright, you know, digging into some of the CTO stuff. Ashesh, who coined metacloud, I love that. The whole in vehicle operating system conversation was great. The security discussion that we just had. You know, the conversations with Accenture were super thoughtful. Of course, Paul Cormier was a highlight. I think that one's going to be a well viewed interview, for sure. And, you know, I think that the customer conversations are great. Red Hat did a really good job of carrying the keynote conversations, which were abbreviated this year, to theCUBE. >> Right. >> I give 'em a lot of kudos for that. And because, theCUBE, it allows us to double click, go deeper, peel the onion a little bit, you know, all the buzz words, and cliches. But it's true. You get to clarify some of the things you heard, which were, you know, the keynotes were, were scripted, but tight. And so we had some good follow up questions. I thought it was super useful. I know I'm leaving somebody out, but- >> We're also able to interview representatives from Intel and Nvidia, which at a software conference you don't typically do. I mean, there's the assimilation, the combination of hardware and software. It's very clear that, and this came out in the keynote, that Red Hat sees hardware as matter. It matters. It's important again. And it's going to be a source of innovation in the future. That came through clearly. >> Yeah. The hardware matters theme, you know, the old days you would have an operating system and the hardware were intrinsically linked. MVS in the mainframe, VAX, VMS in the digital mini computers. DG had its own operating system. Wang had his own operating system. Prime with Prime OS. You remember these days? >> Oh my God. >> Right? (Paul laughs) And then of course Microsoft. >> And then x86, everything got abstracted. >> Right. >> Everything became x86 and now it's all atomizing again. >> Although WinTel, right? I mean, MS-DOS and Windows were intrinsically linked for many, many years with Intel x86. And it wasn't until, you know, well, and then, you know, Sun Solaris, but it wasn't until Linux kind of blew that apart. And the internet is built on the lamp stack. And of course, Linux is the fundamental foundation for Red Hat. So my point is, that the operating system and the hardware have always been very closely tied together. Whether it's security, or IO, or registries and memory management, everything controlled by the OS are very close to the hardware. And so that's why I think you've got an affinity in Red Hat to hardware. >> But Linux is breaking that bond, don't you think? >> Yes, but it still has to understand the underlying hardware. >> Right. >> You heard today, how taking advantage of Nvidia, and the AI capabilities. You're seeing that with ARM, you're seeing that with Intel. How you can optimize the operating system to take advantage of new generations of CPU, and NPU, and CPU, and PU, XPU, you know, across the board. >> Yep. >> Well, I really enjoyed this conference and it really stressed how important open source is to a lot of different industries. >> Great. Well, thanks for coming on. Paul, thank you. Great co-hosting with you. And thank you. >> Always, Dave. >> For watching theCUBE. We'll be on the road, next week we're at KubeCon in Valencia, Spain. We're at VeeamON. We got a ton of stuff going on. Check out thecube.net. Check out siliconangle.com for all the news. Wikibon.com. We publish there weekly, our breaking analysis series. Thanks for watching everybody. Dave Vellante, for Paul Gillin, and Stephanie Chan. Thanks to the crew. Shout out, Andrew, Alex, Sonya. Amazing job, Sonya. Steven, thanks you guys for coming out here. Mark, good job corresponding. Go to SiliconANGLE, Mark's written some great stuff. And thank you for watching. We'll see you next time. (calm music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back. We're winding down theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. We're here at the Seaport in Boston. It's been two days of a little different Red Hat Summit. We're used to eight, 9,000 people. It's much smaller event this year, fewer developers or actually in terms of the mix, a lot more suits this year, which is kind of interesting to see that evolution and a big virtual audience. And I love the way, the keynotes we've noticed are a lot tighter. They're pithy, on time, they're not keeping us in the hall for three hours. So we appreciate that kind of catering to the virtual audience. Dave Vellante here with my co-host, Paul Gillin. As to say things are winding down, there was an analyst event here today, that's ended, but luckily we have Jim Mercer here as a research director at IDC. He's going to share maybe some of the learnings from that event today and this event overall, we're going to talk about DevSecOps. And Kirsten Newcomer is director of security, product management and hybrid platforms at Red Hat. Folks, welcome. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Great to see you. >> Great to be here. >> Security's everywhere, right? You and I have spoken about the supply chain hacks, we've done some sort of interesting work around that and reporting around that. I feel like SolarWinds created a new awareness. You see these moments, it's Stuxnet, or WannaCry and now is SolarWinds very insidious, but security, Red Hat, it's everywhere in your portfolio. Maybe talk about the strategy. >> Sure, absolutely. We feel strongly that it's really important that security be something that is managed in a holistic way present throughout the application stack, starting with the operating system and also throughout the life cycle, which is partly where DevSecOps comes in. So Red Hat has kind of had a long history here, right? Think SELinux and Red Hat Enterprise Linux for mandatory access control. That's been a key component of securing containers in a Kubernetes environment. SELinux has demonstrated the ability to prevent or mitigate container escapes to the file system. And we just have continued to work up the stack as we go, our acquisition of stack rocks a little over a year ago, now known as Red Hat Advanced Cluster Security, gives us the opportunity to really deliver on that DevSecOps component. So Kubernetes native security solution with the ability to both help shift security left for the developers by integrating in the supply chain, but also providing a SecOps perspective for the operations and the security team and feeding information between the two to really try and do that closed infinity loop and then an additional investment more recently in sigstore and some technologies. >> Interesting. >> Yeah, is interesting. >> Go ahead. >> But Shift Left, explain to people what you mean by Shift Left for people might not be familiar with that term. >> Fair enough. For many, many years, right, IT security has been something that's largely been part of an operations environment and not something that developers tended to need to be engaged in with the exception of say source code static analysis tools. We started to see vulnerability management tools get added, but even then they tend to come after the application has been built. And I even ran a few years ago, I ran into a customer who said my security team won't let me get this information early. So Shift Left is all about making sure that there are security gates in the app dev process and information provided to the developer as early as possible. In fact, even in the IDE, Red Hat code ready dependency analytics does that, so that the developers are part of the solution and don't have to wait and get their apps stalled just before it's ready to go into deployment. >> Thank you. You've also been advocating for supply chain security, software supply chain. First of all, explain what a software supply chain is and then, what is unique about the security needs of that environment? >> Sure. And the SolarWinds example, as Dave said, really kind of has raised awareness around this. So just like we use the term supply chain, most people given kind of what's been happening with the pandemic, they've started hearing that term a lot more than they used to, right? So there's a supply chain to get your groceries, to the grocery store, food to the grocery store. There's a supply chain for manufacturing, where do the parts come for the laptops that we're all using, right? And where do they get assembled? Software has a supply chain also, right? So for years and even more so now, developers have been including open source components into the applications they build. So some of the supplies for the applications, the components of those applications, they can come from anywhere in the world. They can come from a wide range of open source projects. Developers are adding their custom code to that. All of this needs to be built together, delivered together and so when we think about a supply chain and the SolarWinds hack, right, there are a couple of elements of supply chain security that are particularly key. The executive order from May of last year, I think was partly in direct response to the SolarWinds hack. And it calls out that we need a software bill of materials. Now again, in manufacturing that's something folks are used to, I actually had the opportunity to contribute to the software package data exchange format, SPDX when it was first started, I've lost track of when that was. But an S-bomb is all about saying, what are all of those components that I'm delivering in my solution? It might be an application layer. It might be the host operating system layer, but at every layer. And if I know what's in what I'm delivering, I have the opportunity to learn more information about those components to track where does Log4Shell, right? When the Log4j or Spring4Shell, which followed shortly thereafter. When those hit, how do I find out which solutions that I'm running have the vulnerable components in them and where are they? The software bill of materials helps with that but you also have to know where, right. And that's the Ops side. I feel like I missed a piece of your question. >> No, it's not a silver bullet though, to your point and Log4j very widely used, but let's bring Jim into the conversation. So Jim, we've been talking about some of these trends, what's your focus area of research? What are you seeing as some of the mega trends in this space? >> I mean, I focus in DevOps and DevSecOps and it's interesting just talking about trends. Kirsten was mentioning the open source and if you look back five, six, seven years ago and you went to any major financial institution, you asked them if they use an open source. Oh, no. >> True. >> We don't use that, right. We wrote it all here. It's all from our developers-- >> Witchcraft. >> Yeah, right, exactly. But the reality is, they probably use a little open source back then but they didn't realize it. >> It's exactly true. >> However, today, not only are they not on versed to open source, they're seeking it out, right. So we have survey data that kind of indicates... A survey that was run kind of in late 2021 that shows that 70% of those who responded said that within the next two years 90% of their applications will be made up of open source. In other words, the content of an application, 10% will be written by themselves and 90% will come from other sources. So we're seeing these more kind of composite applications. Not, everybody's kind of, if you will, at that 90%, but applications are much more composite than they were before. So I'm pulling in pieces, but I'm taking the innovation of the community. So I not only have the innovation of my developers, but I can expand that. I can take the innovation to the community and bring that in and do things much quicker. I can also not have my developers worry about things that, maybe just kind of common stuff that's out there that might have already been written. In other words, just focus on the business logic, don't focus on, how to get orders or how to move widgets and those types of things that everybody does 'cause that's out there in open source. I'll just take that, right. I'll take it, somebody's perfected it, better than I'll ever do. I'll take that in and then I'll just focus and build my business logic on top of that. So open source has been a boom for growth. And I think we've heard a little bit of that (Kirsten laughs) in the last two days-- >> In the Keynotes. >> From Red Hat, right. But talking about the software bill of materials, and then you think about now I taking all that stuff in, I have my first level open source that I took in, it's called it component A. But behind component A is all these transitive dependencies. In other words, open source also uses open source, right? So there's this kind of this, if you will, web or nest, if you want to call it that, of transitive dependencies that need to be understood. And if I have five, six layers deep, I have a vulnerability in another component and I'm over here. Well, guess what? I picked up that vulnerability, right. Even though I didn't explicitly go for that component. So that's where understanding that software bill of materials is really important. I like to explain it as, during the pandemic, we've all experienced, there was all this contact tracing. It was a term where all came to mind. The software bill of materials is like the contact tracing for your open source, right. >> Good analogy. >> Anything that I've come in contact with, just because I came in contact with it, even though I didn't explicitly go looking for COVID, if you will, I got it, right. So in the same regard, that's how I do the contact tracing for my software. >> That 90% figure is really striking. 90% open source use is really striking, considering that it wasn't that long ago that one of the wraps on open source was it's insecure because anybody can see the code, therefore anybody can see the vulnerabilities. What changed? >> I'll say that, what changed is kind of first, the understanding that I can leapfrog and innovate with open source, right? There's more open source content out there. So as organizations had to digitally transform themselves and we've all heard the terminology around, well, hey, with the pandemic, we've leapfrog up five years of digital transformation or something along those lines, right? Open source is part of what helps those teams to do that type of leapfrog and do that type of innovation. You had to develop all of that natively, it just takes too long, or you might not have the talent to do it, right. And to find that talent to do it. So it kind of gives you that benefit. The interesting thing about what you mentioned there was, now we're hearing about all these vulnerabilities, right, in open source, that we need to contend with because the bad guys realize that I'm taking a lot of open source and they're saying, geez, that's a great way to get myself into applications. If I get myself into this one open source component, I'll get into thousands or more applications. So it's a fast path into the supply chain. And that's why it's so important that you understand where your vulnerabilities are in the software-- >> I think the visibility cuts two ways though. So when people say, it's insecure because it's visible. In fact, actually the visibility helps with security. The reality that I can go see the code, that there is a community working on finding and fixing vulnerabilities in that code. Whereas in code that is not open source it's a little bit more security by obscurity, which isn't really security. And there could well be vulnerabilities that a good hacker is going to find, but are not disclosed. So one of the other things we feel strongly about at Red Hat, frankly, is if there is a CVE that affects our code, we disclose that publicly, we have a public CVE database. And it's actually really important to us that we share that, we think we share way more information about issues in our code than most other users or consumers of open source and we work that through the broad community as well. And then also for our enterprise customers, if an issue needs to be fixed, we don't just fix it in the most recent version of the open source. We will backport that fix. And one of the challenges, if you're only addressing the most recent version, that may not be well tested, it might have other bugs, it might have other issues. When we backport a security vulnerability fix, we're able to do that to a stable version, give the customers the benefit of all the testing and use that's gone on while also fixing. >> Kirsten, can you talk about the announcements 'cause everybody's wondering, okay, now what do I do about this? What technology is there to help me? Obviously this framework, you got to follow the right processes, skill sets, all that, not to dismiss that, that's the most important part, but the announcements that you made at Red Hat Summit and how does the StackRox acquisition fit into those? >> Sure. So in particular, if we stick with DevSecOps a minute, but again, I'll do. Again for me, DevSecOps is the full life cycle and many people think of it as just that Shift Left piece. But for me, it's the whole thing. So StackRox ACS has had the ability to integrate into the CI/CD pipeline before we bought them. That continues. They don't just assess for vulnerabilities, but also for application misconfigurations, excess proof requests and helm charts, deployment YAML. So kind of the big, there are two sort of major things in the DevSecOps angle of the announcement or the supply chain angle of the announcement, which is the investment that we've been making in sigstore, signing, getting integrity of the components, the elements you're deploying is important. I have been asked for years about the ability to sign container images. The reality is that the signing technology and Red Hat signs everything we ship and always have, but the signing technology wasn't designed to be used in a CI/CD pipeline and sigstore is explicitly designed for that use case to make it easy for developers, as well as you can back it with full CO, you can back it with an OIDC based signing, keyless signing, throw away the key. Or if you want that enterprise CA, you can have that backing there too. >> And you can establish that as a protocol where you must. >> You can, right. So our pattern-- >> So that would've helped with SolarWinds. >> Absolutely. >> Because they were putting in malware and then taking it out, seeing what happened. My question was, could sigstore help? I always evaluate now everything and I'm not a security expert, but would this have helped with SolarWinds? A lot of times the answer is no. >> It's a combination. So a combination of sigstore integrated with Tekton Chains. So we ship Tekton, which is a Kubernetes supply chain pipeline. As OpenShift pipelines, we added chains to that. Chains allows you to attest every step in your pipeline. And you're doing that attestation by signing those steps so that you can validate that those steps have not changed. And in fact, the folks at SolarWinds are using Tekton Chains. They did a great talk in October at KubeCon North America on the changes they've made to their supply chain. So they're using both Tekton Chains and sigstore as part of their updated pipeline. Our pattern will allow our customers to deploy OpenShift, advanced cluster manager, advanced cluster security and Quay with security gates in place. And that include a pipeline built on Tekton with Tekton Chains there to sign those steps in the pipeline to enable signing of the code that's moving through that pipeline to store that signature in Quay and to validate the image signature upon deployment with advanced cluster security. >> So Jim, your perspective on this, Red Hat's, I mean, you care about security, security's everywhere, but you're not a security company. You follow security companies. There's like far too many of them. CISOs all say my number one challenge is lack of talent, but I have all these tools to deal with. You see new emerging companies that are doing pretty well. And then you see a company that's highly respected, like an Okta screw up the communications on a pretty benign hack. Actually, when you peel the onion on that, it's just this mess (chuckles) and it doesn't seem like it's going to get any simpler. Maybe the answer is companies like Red Hat kind of absorbing that and taking care of it. What do you see there? I mean, maybe it's great for business 'cause you've got so many companies. >> There's a lot of companies and there's certainly a lot of innovation out there and unique ways to make security easier, right. I mean, one of the keys here is to be able to make security easier for developers, right. One of the challenges with adopting DevSecOps is if DevSecOps creates a lot of friction in the process, it's hard to really... I can do it once, but I can't keep doing that and get the same kind of velocity. So I need to take the friction out of the process. And one of the challenges a lot of organizations have, and I've heard this from the development side, but I've also heard it from the InfoSec side, right. Because I take inquiry for people on InfoSec, and they're like, how do I get these developers to do what I want? And part of the challenge they have is like, I got these teams using these tools. I got those teams using those tools. And it's a similar challenge that we saw on DevOps where there's just too many, if you will, too many dang tools, right. So that is a challenge for organizations is, they're trying to kind of normalize the tools. Interestingly, we did a survey, I think around last August or something. And one of the questions was around, where do you want your security? Where do you want to get your DevSecOps security from, do you want to get it from individual vendors? Or do you want to get it from like, your platforms that you're using and deploying changes in Kubernetes. >> Great question. What did they say? >> The majority of them, they're hoping they can get it built into the platform. That's really what they want. And you see a lot of the security vendors are trying to build security platforms. Like we're not just assess tool, we're desk, we're this, whatever. And they're building platforms to kind of be that end-to-end security platform, trying to solve that problem, right, to make it easier to kind of consume the product overall, without a bunch of individual tools along the way. But certainly tool sprawl is definitely a challenge out there. Just one other point around the sigstore stuff which I love. Because that goes back to the supply chain and talking about digital providence, right. Understanding where things... How do I validate that what I gave you is what you thought it was, right. And what I like about it with Tekton Chains is because there's a couple things. Well, first of all, I don't want to just sign things after I built the binary. Well, I mean, I do want to sign it, but I want to just sign things once, right. Because all through the process, I think of it as a manufacturing plant, right. I'm making automobiles. If I check the quality of the automobile at one stage and I don't check it to the other, things have changed, right. How do I know that I did something wasn't compromised, right. So with sigstore kind of tied in with Tekton Chains, kind of gives me that view. And the other aspect I like it about is, this kind of transparency in the log, right-- >> The report component. >> Exactly. So I can see what was going on. So there is some this kind of like public scrutiny, like if something bad happened, you could go back and see what happened there and it wasn't as you were expected. >> As with most discussions on this topic, we could go for an hour because it's really important. And thank you guys for coming on and sharing your perspectives, the data. >> Our pleasure. >> And keep up the good work. Kirsten, it's on you. >> Thanks so much. >> The IDC survey said it, they want it in platforms. You're up. >> (laughs) That's right. >> All right. Good luck to both you. >> Thank you both so much. >> All right. And thank you for watching. We're back to wrap right after this short break. This is Dave Vellante for Paul Gill. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> We're back. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022 here in the Seaport in Boston. I'm Dave Vellante with my co-host, Paul Gillin. Justin Boitano is here. He's the Vice President of Enterprise and Edge Computing at NVIDIA. Maybe you've heard of him. And Tushar Katarki who's the Director of Product Management at Red Hat. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thank you. >> Great to be here, thanks >> Justin, you are a keynote this morning. You got interviewed and shared your thoughts on AI. You encourage people to got to think bigger on AI. I know it's kind of self-serving but why? Why should we think bigger? >> When you think of AI, I mean, it's a monumental change. It's going to affect every industry. And so when we think of AI, you step back, you're challenging companies to build intelligence and AI factories, and factories that can produce intelligence. And so it, you know, forces you to rethink how you build data centers, how you build applications. It's a very data centric process where you're bringing in, you know, an exponential amount of data. You have to label that data. You got to train a model. You got to test the model to make sure that it's accurate and delivers business value. Then you push it into production, it's going to generate more data, and you kind of work through that cycle over and over and over. So, you know, just as Red Hat talks about, you know, CI/CD of applications, we're talking about CI/CD of the AI model itself, right? So it becomes a continuous improvement of AI models in production which is a big, big business transformation. >> Yeah, Chris Wright was talking about basically take your typical application development, you know, pipeline, and life cycle, and apply that type of thinking to AI. I was saying those two worlds have to come together. Actually, you know, the application stack and the data stack including AI need to come together. What's the role of Red Hat? What's your sort of posture on AI? Where do you fit with OpenShift? >> Yeah, so we're really excited about AI. I mean, a lot of our customers obviously are looking to take that data and make meaning out of it using AI is definitely a big important tool. And OpenShift, and our approach to Open Hybrid Cloud really forms a successful platform to base all your AI journey on with the partners such as NVIDIA whom we are working very closely with. And so the idea really is as Justin was saying, you know, the end to end, when you think about life of a model, you've got data, you mine that data, you create models, you deploy it into production. That whole thing, what we call CI/CD, as he was saying DevOps, DevSecOps, and the hybrid cloud that Red Hat has been talking about, although with OpenShift as the center forms a good basis for that. >> So somebody said the other day, I'm going to ask you, is INVIDIA a hardware company or a software company? >> We are a company that people know for our hardware but, you know, predominantly now we're a software company. And that's what we were on stage talking about. I mean, ultimately, a lot of these customers know that they've got to embark on this journey to apply AI, to transform their business with it. It's such a big competitive advantage going into, you know, the next decade. And so the faster they get ahead of it, the more they're going to win, right? But some of them, they're just not really sure how to get going. And so a lot of this is we want to lower the barrier to entry. We built this program, we call it Launchpad to basically make it so they get instant access to the servers, the AI servers, with OpenShift, with the MLOps tooling, with example applications. And then we walk them through examples like how do you build a chatbot? How do you build a vision system for quality control? How do you build a price recommendation model? And they can do hands on labs and walk out of, you know, Launchpad with all the software they need, I'll say the blueprint for building their application. They've got a way to have the software and containers supported in production, and they know the blueprint for the infrastructure and operating that a scale with OpenShift. So more and more, you know, to come back to your question is we're focused on the software layers and making that easy to help, you know, either enterprises build their apps or work with our ecosystem and developers to buy, you know, solutions off the shelf. >> On the harbor side though, I mean, clearly NVIDIA has prospered on the backs of GPUs, as the engines of AI development. Is that how it's going to be for the foreseeable future? Will GPUs continue to be core to building and training AI models or do you see something more specific to AI workloads? >> Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. So I think for the next decade, well, plus, I mean not forever, we're going to always monetize hardware. It's a big, you know, market opportunity. I mean, Jensen talks about a $100 billion, you know, market opportunity for NVIDIA just on hardware. It's probably another a $100 billion opportunity on the software. So the reality is we're getting going on the software side, so it's still kind of early days, but that's, you know, a big area of growth for us in the future and we're making big investments in that area. On the hardware side, and in the data center, you know, the reality is since Moore's law has ended, acceleration is really the thing that's going to advance all data centers. So I think in the future, every server will have GPUs, every server will have DPUs, and we can talk a bit about what DPUs are. And so there's really kind of three primary processors that have to be there to form the foundation of the enterprise data center in the future. >> Did you bring up an interesting point about DPUs and MPUs, and sort of the variations of GPUs that are coming about? Do you see those different PU types continuing to proliferate? >> Oh, absolutely. I mean, we've done a bunch of work with Red Hat, and we've got a, I'll say a beta of OpenShift 4.10 that now supports DPUs as the, I'll call it the control plane like software defined networking offload in the data center. So it takes all the software defined networking off of CPUs. When everybody talks about, I'll call it software defined, you know, networking and core data centers, you can think of that as just a CPU tax up to this point. So what's nice is it's all moving over to DPU to, you know, offload and isolate it from the x86 cores. It increases security of data center. It improves the throughput of your data center. And so, yeah, DPUs, we see everybody copying that model. And, you know to give credit where credit is due, I think, you know, companies like AWS, you know, they bought Annapurna, they turned it into Nitro which is the foundation of their data centers. And everybody wants the, I'll call it democratized version of that to run their data centers. And so every financial institution and bank around the world sees the value of this technology, but running in their data centers. >> Hey, everybody needs a Nitro. I've written about it. It's Annapurna acquisition, 350 million. I mean, peanuts in the grand scheme of things. It's interesting, you said Moore's law is dead. You know, we have that conversation all the time. Pat Gelsinger promised that Moore's law is alive and well. But the interesting thing is when you look at the numbers, that's, you know, Moore's law, we all know it, doubling of the transistor densities every 18 to 24 months. Let's say that, that promise that he made is true. What I think the industry maybe doesn't appreciate, I'm sure you do, being in NVIDIA, when you combine what you were just saying, the CPU, the GPU, Paul, the MPU, accelerators, all the XPUs, you're talking about, I mean, look at Apple with the M1, I mean 6X in 15 months versus doubling every 18 to 24. The A15 is probably averaging over the last five years, a 110% performance improvement each year versus the historical Moore's law which is 40%. It's probably down to the low 30s now. So it's a completely different world that we're entering now. And the new applications are going to be developed on these capabilities. It's just not your general purpose market anymore. From an application development standpoint, what does that mean to the world? >> Yeah, I mean, yeah, it is a great point. I mean, from an application, I mean first of all, I mean, just talk about AI. I mean, they are all very compute intensive. They're data intensive. And I mean to move data focus so much in to compute and crunch those numbers. I mean, I'd say you need all the PUs that you mentioned in the world. And also there are other concerns that will augment that, right? Like we want to, you know, security is so important so we want to secure everything. Cryptography is going to take off to new levels, you know, that we are talking about, for example, in the case of DPUs, we are talking about, you know, can that be used to offload your encryption and firewalling, and so on and so forth. So I think there are a lot of opportunities even from an application point of view to take of this capacity. So I'd say we've never run out of the need for PUs if you will. >> So is OpenShift the layer that's going to simplify all that for the developer. >> That's right. You know, so one of the things that we worked with NVIDIA, and in fact was we developed this concept of an operator for GPUs, but you can use that pattern for any of the PUs. And so the idea really is that, how do you, yeah-- (all giggle) >> That's a new term. >> Yeah, it's a new term. (all giggle) >> XPUs. >> XPUs, yeah. And so that pattern becomes very easy for GPUs or any other such accelerators to be easily added as a capacity. And for the Kubernetes scaler to understand that there is that capacity so that an application which says that I want to run on a GPU then it becomes very easy for it to run on that GPU. And so that's the abstraction to your point about how we are making that happen. >> And to add to this. So the operator model, it's this, you know, open source model that does the orchestration. So Kubernetes will say, oh, there's a GPU in that node, let me run the operator, and it installs our entire run time. And our run time now, you know, it's got a MIG configuration utility. It's got the driver. It's got, you know, telemetry and metering of the actual GPU and the workload, you know, along with a bunch of other components, right? They get installed in that Kubernetes cluster. So instead of somebody trying to chase down all the little pieces and parts, it just happens automatically in seconds. We've extended the operator model to DPUs and networking cards as well, and we have all of those in the operator hub. So for somebody that's running OpenShift in their data centers, it's really simple to, you know, turn on Node Feature Discovery, you point to the operators. And when you see new accelerated nodes, the entire run time is automatically installed for you. So it really makes, you know, GPUs and our networking, our advanced networking capabilities really first class citizens in the data center. >> So you can kind of connect the dots and see how NVIDIA and the Red Hat partnership are sort of aiming at the enterprise. I mean, NVIDIA, obviously, they got the AI piece. I always thought maybe 25% of the compute cycles in the data center were wasted doing storage offloads or networking offload, security. I think Jensen says it's 30%, probably a better number than I have. But so now you're seeing a lot of new innovation in new hardware devices that are attacking that with alternative processors. And then my question is, what about the edge? Is that a blue field out at the edge? What does that look like to NVIDIA and where does OpenShift play? >> Yeah, so when we talk about the edge, we always going to start talking about like which edge are we talking about 'cause it's everything outside the core data center. I mean, some of the trends that we see with regard to the edges is, you know, when you get to the far edge, it's single nodes. You don't have the guards, gates, and guns protection of the data center. So you start having to worry about physical security of the hardware. So you can imagine there's really stringent requirements on protecting the intellectual property of the AI model itself. You spend millions of dollars to build it. If I push that out to an edge data center, how do I make sure that that's fully protected? And that's the area that we just announced a new processor that we call Hopper H100. It supports confidential computing so that you can basically ensure that model is always encrypted in system memory across the bus, of the PCI bus to the GPU, and it's run in a confidential way on the GPU. So you're protecting your data which is your model plus the data flowing through it, you know, in transit, wallet stored, and then in use. So that really adds to that edge security model. >> I wanted to ask you about the cloud, correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems to me that that AI workloads have been slower than most to make their way to the cloud. There are a lot of concerns about data transfer capacity and even cost. Do you see that? First of all, do you agree with that? And secondly, is that going to change in the short-term? >> Yeah, so I think there's different classes of problems. So we'll take, there's some companies where their data's generated in the cloud and we see a ton of, I'll say, adoption of AI by cloud service providers, right? Recommendation engines, translation engines, conversational AI services, that all the clouds are building. That's all, you know, our processors. There's also problems that enterprises have where now I'm trying to take some of these automation capabilities but I'm trying to create an intelligent factory where I want to, you know, merge kind of AI with the physical world. And that really has to run at the edge 'cause there's too much data being generated by cameras to bring that all the way back into the cloud. So, you know, I think we're seeing mass adoption in the cloud today. I think at the edge a lot of businesses are trying to understand how do I deploy that reliably and securely and scale it. So I do think, you know, there's different problems that are going to run in different places, and ultimately we want to help anybody apply AI where the business is generating the data. >> So obviously very memory intensive applications as well. We've seen you, NVIDIA, architecturally kind of move away from the traditional, you know, x86 approach, take better advantage of memories where obviously you have relationships with Arm. So you've got a very diverse set of capabilities. And then all these other components that come into use, to just be a kind of x86 centric world. And now it's all these other supporting components to support these new applications and it's... How should we think about the future? >> Yeah, I mean, it's very exciting for sure, right? Like, you know, the future, the data is out there at the edge, the data can be in the data center. And so we are trying to weave a hybrid cloud footprint that spans that. I mean, you heard Paul come here, talk about it. But, you know, we've talked about it for some time now. And so the paradigm really that is, that be it an application, and when I say application, it could be even an AI model as a service. It can think about that as an application. How does an application span that entire paradigm from the core to the edge and beyond is where the future is. And, of course, there's a lot of technical challenges, you know, for us to get there. And I think partnerships like this are going to help us and our customers to get there. So the world is very exciting. You know, I'm very bullish on how this will play out, right? >> Justin, we'll give you the last word, closing thoughts. >> Well, you know, I think a lot of this is like I said, it's how do we reduce the complexity for enterprises to get started which is why Launchpad is so fundamental. It gives, you know, access to the entire stack instantly with like hands on curated labs for both IT and data scientists. So they can, again, walk out with the blueprints they need to set this up and, you know, start on a successful AI journey. >> Just a position, is Launchpad more of a Sandbox, more of a school, or more of an actual development environment. >> Yeah, think of it as it's, again, it's really for trial, like hands on labs to help people learn all the foundational skills they need to like build an AI practice and get it into production. And again, it's like, you don't need to go champion to your executive team that you need access to expensive infrastructure and, you know, and bring in Red Hat to set up OpenShift. Everything's there for you so you can instantly get started. Do kind of a pilot project and then use that to explain to your executive team everything that you need to then go do to get this into production and drive business value for the company. >> All right, great stuff, guys. Thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. >> Yeah, thanks. >> Thank you for having us. >> All right, thank you for watching. Keep it right there, Dave Vellante and Paul Gillin. We'll be back right after this short break at the Red Hat Summit 2022. (upbeat music)

>> Welcome back to the Seaport in Boston and this is theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. I'm Dave Vellante with my co-host Paul Gillin. Rob Belson is here as the Developer Relations Lead at Verizon. Robbie great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. >> So Verizon and developer relations. Talk about your role there. Really interesting. >> Absolutely. If you think about our mobile edge computing portfolio in Verizon 5G Edge, suddenly the developer is a more important persona than ever for actually adopting the cloud itself and adopting the mobile edge. So the question then quickly became how do we go after developers and how do we tell stories that ultimately resonate with them? And so my role has been spearheading our developer relations and experience efforts, which is all about meeting developers in the channels where they actually are, building content that resonates with them. Building out architectures that showcase how do you actually use the technology in the wild? And then ultimately creating automation assets that make their lives easier in deploying to the mobile edge. >> So, you know, telcos get a bad rap, when you're thinking it's amazing what you guys do. You put out all this capital infrastructure, big outlays. You know, we use our phones to drop a call. People like, "Ah, freaking Verizon." But it's amazing what we can actually do too. You think about the pandemic, the shift that the telcos had to go through to landlines to support home, never missed a beat. And yet at the same time you're providing all this infrastructure for people to come over the top, the cost forbid is going down, right? Your cost are going up and yet now we're doing this big 5G buildup. So I feel like there's a renaissance about to occur in edge computing that the telcos are going to lead new forms of monetization new value that you're going to be able to add, new services, new applications. The future's got to be exciting for you guys and it's going to be developer-led, isn't it? >> Absolutely. I mean it's been such an exciting time to be a part of our mobile edge computing portfolio. If you think back to late 2019 we were really asking the question with the advent of high speed 5G mobile networks, how can you drive more immersive experiences from the cloud in a cloud native way without compromising on the tools you know and love? And that's ultimately what caused us to really work with the likes of AWS and others to think about what does a mobile edge computing portfolio look like? So we started with 5G Edge with AWS Wavelength. So taking the compute and storage services you know and love in AWS and bringing it to the edge of our 4G and 5G networks. But then we start to think, well, wait a minute. Why stop at public networks? Let's think about private networks. How can we bring the cloud and private networks together? So you turn back to late 2021 we announced Verizon 5G Edge with AWS Outposts but we didn't even stop there. We said, "Well, interest's cool, but what about network APIs? We've been talking about the ability and the programmability of the 5G network but what does that actually look like to the developers? And one great example is our Edge Discovery Service. So you think about the proliferation of the edge 17 Wavelength Zones today in the US. Well, what edge is the right edge? You think about maybe the airline industry if the closest exit might be behind you absolutely applies to service discovery. So we've built an API that helps answer that seemingly basic question but is the fundamental building block for everything to workload orchestration, workload distribution. A basic network building block has become so important to some of these new sources of revenue streams, as we mentioned, but also the ability to disintermediate that purpose built hardware. You think about the future of autonomous mobile robots either ground and aerial robotics. Well, you want to make those devices as cheap as possible but you don't want to compromise on performance. And that mobile edge layer is going to become so critical for that connectivity, but also the compute itself. >> So I just kind of gave my little narrative up front about telco, but that purpose built hardware that you're talking about is exceedingly reliable. I mean, it's hardened, it's fossilized and so now as you just disaggregate that and go to a more programmable infrastructure, how are you able to and what gives you confidence that you're going to be able to maintain that reliability that I joke about? Oh, but it's so reliable. The network has amazing reliability. How are you able to maintain that? Is that just the pace of technology is now caught up, I wonder if you can explain that? >> I think it's really cool as I see reliability and sort of geo distribution as inextricably linked. So in a world where to get that best in class latency you needed to go to one place and one place only. Well, now you're creating some form of single source of failure whether it's the power, whether it's the compute itself, whether it's the networking, but with a more geo distributed footprint, particularly in the mobile edge more choices for where to deliver that immersive experience you're naturally driving an increase in reliability. But again, infra alone it's not going to do the job. You need the network APIs. So it's the convergence of the cloud and network and infra and the automation behind it that's been incredibly powerful. And as a great example, the work we've been doing in hybrid MEC the ability to converge within one single architecture, the private network, the public network, the AWS Outposts, the AWS Wavelength all in one has been such a fantastic journey and Red Hat has been a really important part in that journey. >> From the perspective of the developer when they're building a full cloud to edge application, where does Verizon pick up? Where do they start working primarily with you versus with their cloud provider? >> Absolutely. And I think you touched on a really important point. I think when you often think about the edge it's thought of as an either, or. Is it the edge? Is it the cloud? Is it both? It's an and I can't emphasize that enough. What we've seen from the customers greenfield or otherwise it's about extending an application or services that were never intended to live at the edge, to the edge itself, to deliver a more performant experience. And for certain control plane operations, metadata, backend operations analytics that can absolutely stay in the cloud itself. And so our role is to be a trusted partner in some of our enterprise customers' journeys. Of course, they can lean on the cloud provider in select cases, but we're an absolutely critical mode of support as you think about what are those architectures? How do you integrate the network APIs? And through our developer relations efforts, we've put a major role in helping to shape what those patterns really look like in the wild. >> When they're developing for 5G I mean, the availability of 5G of particularly you know, the high bandwidth 5G is pretty spotty right now. Mostly urban areas. How should they be thinking in the future developing an application roll out two years from now about where 5G will be at that point? >> Absolutely. I think one of the most important things in this case is the interoperability of our edge computing portfolio with both 4G and 5G. Whenever somebody asks me about the performance of 5G they ask how fast? Or for edge computing. It's always about benchmark. It's not an absolute value. It's always about benchmarking the performance to that next best alternative. What were you going to get if you didn't have edge computing in your back pocket? And so along that line of thought having the option to go either through 4G or 5G, having a mobile edge computing portfolio that works for both modes of connectivity even CAN-AM IoT is incredibly powerful. >> So it sounds like 4G is going to be with us for quite a while still? >> And I think it's an important part of the architecture. >> Yeah. >> Robert, tell us about the developer that's building these applications. Where does that individual come from? What's their persona? >> Oh, boy I think there's a number of different personas and flavors. I've seen everything from the startup in the back of a garage working hard to try to figure out what could I do for a next generation media and entertainment experience but also large enterprises. And I think a great area where we saw this was our 5G Edge Computing Challenge that we hosted last year. Believe it or not 100 submissions from over 22 countries, all building on Verizon 5G Edge. It was so exciting to see because so many different use cases across public safety, healthcare, media and entertainment. And what we found was that education is so important. A lot of developers have great ideas but if you don't understand the fundamentals of the infrastructure you get bogged down in networking and setting up your environment. And that's why we think that developer education is so important. We want to make it easy and in fact, the 5G Edge portfolio was designed in such a way that we'll abstract the complexities of the network away so you can focus on building your application and that's such a central theme and focus for how we approach the development. >> So what kind of services are you exposing via APIs? >> Absolutely, so first and foremost, as you think about 5G Edge with say AWS Wavelength, the infra there are APIs that are exposed by AWS to launch your infra, to patch your infrastructure, to automate your infrastructure. Specifically that Verizon has developed that's our network APIs. And a great example is our Edge Discovery Service. So think of this as like a service registry you've launched an application in all 17 edge zones. You would take that information, you would send it via API to the Edge Discovery Service so that for any mobile client say, you wake up one morning in Boston, you can ask the API or query, "Hey, what's the closest edge zone?" DNS isn't going to be able to figure it out. You need knowledge of the actual topology of the mobile network itself. So the API will answer. Let's say you take a little road trip 1,000 miles south to say Miami, Florida you ask that question again. It could change. So that's the workflow and how you would use the network API today. >> How'd you get into this? You're an engineer it's obvious how'd you stumble into this role? >> Well, yeah, I have a background in networks and distributed systems so I always knew I wanted to stay in the cloud somewhere. And there was a really unique opportunity at Verizon as the portfolio was being developed to really think about what this developer community looked like. And we built this all from scratch. If you look at say our Verizon 5G Edge Blog we launched it just along the timing of the actual GA of Wavelength. You look at our developer newsletter also around the time of the launch of Wavelength. So we've done a lot in such a short period and it's all been sort of organic, interacting with developers, working backwards from the customer. And so it's been a fairly new, but incredibly exciting journey. >> How will your data, architecture, data flow what will that look like in the future? How will that be different than it is sort of historically? >> When I think about customer workloads real time data architecture is an incredibly difficult thing to do. When you overlay the edge, admittedly, it gets more complicated. More places that produce the data, more places that consume data. How do you reconcile all of these environments? Maintain consistency? This is absolutely something we've been working on with the ecosystem at large. We're not going to solve this alone. We've looked at architecture patterns that we think are successful. And some of the things that we found that we believe are pretty cool this idea of taking that embedded mobile database, virtualizing it to the edge, even making it multi-tenant. And then you're producing data to one single source and simplifying how you organize and share data because all of the data being produced to that one location will be relevant to that topology. So Boston, as an example, Boston data being produced to that edge zone will only service Boston clients. So having a geo distributed footprint really does help data architectures, but at the core of all of this database, architectures, you need a compute environment that actually makes sense. That's performant, that's reliable. That's easy to use that you understand how to manage and that the edge doesn't make it any more difficult to manage. >> So are you building that? >> That's exactly what we're doing. So here at Red Hat Summit we've had the unique opportunity to continue to collaborate with our partners at Red Hat to think about how you actually use OpenShift in the context of hybrid MEC. So what have done is we've used OpenShift as is to extend what already exists to some of these new edge zones without adding in an additional layer of complexity that was unmanageable. >> So you use OpenShift so you don't have to cobble this together on your own as a full development environment and that's the role really that OpenShift plays here? >> That's exactly right. And we presented pieces of this at our re:Invent this past year and what we basically did is we said the edge needs to be inextricably linked with the cloud. And you want to be able to manage it from some seamless central pane of glass and using that OpenShift console is a great way. So what we did is we wanted to show a really geo-distributed footprint in action. We started with a Wavelength zone in Boston, the region in Northern Virginia, an outpost in the Texas area. We cobbled it all together in one cluster. So you had a whole compute mesh separated by thousands of miles all within a single cluster, single pane of glass. We take that and are starting to expand on the complexity of these architectures to overlay the network APIs we mentioned, to overlay multi-region support. So when we say you can use all 17 zones at once you actually can. >> So you've been talking about Wavelength and Outposts which are AWS products, but Microsoft and Google both have their distributed architectures as well. Where do you stand with those? Will you support those? Are you working with them? >> That's a great question. We have made announcements with Microsoft and Google but today I focus a lot on the work we do with AWS Wavelength and Outposts and continuing to work backwards from the customer and ultimately meet their needs. >> Yeah I mean, you got to start with an environment that the developers know that obviously a great developer community, you know, you see it at re:Invent. What was the reaction at re:Invent when you showed this from a developer community? >> Absolutely. Developers are excited and I think the best part is we're not the only ones talking about Wavelength not even AWS are the only ones talking about Wavelength. And to me from a developer ecosystem perspective that's when you know it's working. When you're not the one telling the best stories when others are evangelizing the power of your technology on your behalf that's when the ecosystem's starting to pick up. >> Speaking of making a bet on Outposts you know, it's somewhat limited today. I'll say it it's limited today in terms of we think it supports RDS and there's a few storage players. Is it your expectation that Outposts is going to be this essentially the cloud environment on your premises is that? >> That's a great question. I see it more as we want to expand customer choice more than ever and ultimately let the developers and architects decide. That's why I'm so bullish on this idea of hybrid MEC. Let's provide all of the options the most complicated geo distributed hybrid deployment you can imagine and automate it, make it easy. That way if you want to take away components of this architecture all you're doing is simplifying something that's already automated and fairly simple to begin with. So start with the largest problem to solve and then provide customers choice for what exactly meets their requirements their SLAs, their footprint, their network and work backwards from the customer. >> Exciting times ahead. Rob, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. It's great to have you. >> Appreciate it, thanks for your time. >> Good luck. All right, thank you for watching. Keep it right there. This is Dave Vellante for Paul Gillin. We're live at Red Hat Summit 2022 from the Seaport in Boston. We'll be right back.

(gentle music) >> We're back at the Seaport in Boston. I'm Dave Vellante with my co-host, Paul Gillin. Tracie Zenti is here. She's the Director of Global Partner Management at Microsoft, and Tom Anderson is the Vice President of Ansible at Red Hat. Guys, welcome to theCube. >> Hi, thank you. >> Yep. >> Ansible on Azure, we're going to talk about that. Why do I need Ansible? Why do I need that kind of automation in Azure? What's the problem you're solving there? >> Yeah, so automation itself is connecting customers' infrastructure to their end resources, so whether that infrastructure's in the cloud, whether it's in the data center, or whether it's at the edge. Ansible is the common automation platform that allows customers to reuse automation across all of those platforms. >> And so, Tracie, I mean, Microsoft does everything. Why do you need Red Hat to do Ansible? >> We want that automation, right? We want our customers to have that ease of use so they can be innovative and bring their workloads to Azure. So that's exactly why we want Ansible. >> Yeah, so kind of loaded questions here, right, as we were sort of talking offline. The nature of partnerships is changing. It's about co-creating, adding value together, getting those effects of momentum, but maybe talk about how the relationship started and how it's evolving and I'd love to have your perspective on the evolving nature of ecosystems. >> Yeah, I think the partnership with Red Hat has been strong for a number of years. I think my predecessor was in the role for five years. There was a person in there for a couple years before that. So I think seven or eight years, we've been working together and co-engineering. Red Hat enterprised Linux. It's co-engineered. Ansible was co-engineered. We work together, right? So we want it to run perfectly on our platform. We want it to be a good customer experience. I think the evolution that we're seeing is in how customers buy, right? They want us to be one company, right? They want it to be easy. They want be able to buy their software where they run it on the cloud. They don't want to have to call Red Hat to buy and then call us to buy and then deploy. And we can do all that now with Ansible's the first one we're doing this together and we'll grow that on our marketplace so that it's easy to buy, easy to deploy, easy to keep track of. >> This is not just Ansible in the marketplace. This is actually a fully managed service. >> That's right. >> What is the value you've added on top of that? >> So it runs in the customer account, but it acts kind of like SaaS. So Red Hat gets to manage it, right? And it's in their own tenant. So they get in the customer's own tenant, right? So with a service principle, Red Hat's able to do that management. Tom, do you want to add anything to that? >> Yeah, the customers don't have to worry about managing Ansible. They just worry about using Ansible to automate their infrastructure. So it's a kind of a win-win situation for us and for our customers. We manage the infrastructure for them and the customer's resources themselves and they get to just focus on automating their business. >> Now, if they want to do cross-cloud automation or automation to their hybrid cloud, will you support that as well? >> 100%. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> We're totally fine with that, right? I mean, it's unrealistic to think customers run everything in one place. That isn't enterprise. That's not reality. So yeah, I'm fine with that. >> Well, that's not every cloud provider. >> No (laughing) that's true. >> You guys over here, at Amazon, you can't even say multicloud or you'll get thrown off the stage. >> Of course we'd love it to all run on Azure, but we want our customers to be happy and have choice, yeah. >> You guys have all, I mean, you've been around a long time. So you had a huge on-prem state, brought that to the cloud, and Azure Stack, I mean, it's been around forever and it's evolved. So you've always believed in, whatever you call it, Hybrid IT, and of course, you guys, that's your call of mission. >> Yeah, exactly. >> So how do you each see hybrid? Where's the points of agreement? It sounds like there's more overlap than gaps, but maybe you could talk about your perspective. >> Yeah, I don't think there are any points of disagreement. I think for us, it's meeting our customers where their center of gravity is, where they see their center of management gravity. If it's on Azure, great. If it's on their data center, that's okay, too. So they can manage to or from. So if Azure is their center of gravity, they can use automation, Ansible automation, to manage all the things on Azure, things on other cloud providers, things in their data center, all the way out to their edge. So they have the choice of what makes the most sense to them. >> And Azure Arc is obviously, that's how Azure Stack is evolving, right? >> Yeah, and we have Azure Arc integration with Ansible. >> Yeah. >> So yeah, absolutely. And I mean, we also have Rell on our marketplace, right? So you can buy the basement and you could buy the roof and everything in between. So we're growing the estate on marketplace as well to all the other products that we have in common. So absolutely. >> How much of an opportunity, just go if we go inside? Give us a little peak inside Microsoft. How much of an opportunity does Microsoft think about multi-cloud specifically? I'm not crazy about the term multicloud, 'cause to me, multicloud, runs an Azure, runs an AWS, runs on Google, maybe runs somewhere else. But multicloud meaning that common experience, your version of hybrid, if you will. How serious is Microsoft about that as a business opportunity? A lot of people would say, well, Microsoft really doesn't want. They want everything in their cloud. But I'd love to hear from you if that is good. >> Well, we have Azure Red Hat OpenShift, which is a Microsoft branded version of OpenShift. We have Ansible now on our marketplace. We also, of course, we have AKS. So I mean, container strategy runs anywhere. But we also obviously have services that enhance all these things. So I think, our marketplace is a third party marketplace. It is designed to let customers buy and run easily on Azure and we'd want to make that experience good. So I don't know that it's... I can't speak to our strategy on multicloud, but what I can speak to is when businesses need to do innovation, we want it to be easy to do that, right? We want it to be easy to buy, defined, buy, deploy, manage, and that's what we're trying to accomplish. >> Fair to say, you're not trying to stop it. >> No, yeah, yeah. >> Whether or not it evolves into something that you heavily lean into or see. >> When we were talking before the cameras turned on, you said that you think marketplaces are the future. Why do you say that? And how will marketplaces be differentiated from each other in the future? >> Well, our marketplace is really, first of all, I think, as you said off camera, they're now. You can buy now, right? There's nothing that stops you. But to me, it's an extension of consumerization of IT. I've been in IT and manageability for about 23 years and full automation is what we and IT used to always talk about, that single pane of glass. How do you keep track of everything? How do you make it easy? How do you support? And IT is always eeking out that last little bit of funding to do innovation, right? So what we can do with consumerization of IT is make it easier to innovate. Make it cheaper to innovate, right? So I think marketplaces do that, right? They've got gold images you can deploy. You're also able to deploy custom images. So I think the future is as particularly with ours, like we support, I don't remember the exact number, but over a hundred countries of tax calculation. We've got like 17 currencies. So as we progress and customers can run from anywhere in the world and buy from anywhere in the world and make it simple to do those things that used to take maybe two months to spin up services for innovation and Ansible helps with that, that's going to help enterprises innovate faster. And I think that's what marketplaces are really going to bring to the forefront is that innovation. >> Tom, why did Ansible, I'm going to say one, I mean, you're never done. But it was unclear a few years ago, which automation platform was going to win in the marketplace and clearly, Ansible has taken a leading position. Why? What were the factors that led to that? >> Honestly, it was the strength of the community, right? And Red Hat leaning into that community to support that community. When you look out at the upstream community for Ansible and the number of participants, active participants that are contributing to the community just increases its value to everybody. So the number of integrations, the number of things that you can automate with Ansible is in the thousands and thousands, and that's not because a group of Red Hat engineers wrote it. That's because our community partners, like Microsoft wrote the user integrations for Ansible. F5 does theirs. Customers take those and expand on them. So the number of use cases that we can address through the community and through our partners is immense. >> But that doesn't just happen. I mean, what have you done to cultivate that community? >> Well, it's in Red Hat's DNA, right? To be the catalyst in a community, to bring partners and users together, to share their knowledge and their expertise and their skills, and to make the code open. So anybody can go grab Ansible from upstream and start doing stuff with it, if they want. If they want to mature on it and management for it and support all the other things that Red Hat provides, then they come to us for a subscription. So it's really been about sort of catalyzing and supporting that community, and Red Hat is a good steward of these upstream communities. >> Is Azure putting Ansible to use actually within your own platform as opposed to being a managed service? Are you adopting Ansible for automation of the Azure Platform? >> I'll let you answer that. >> So two years ago, Microsoft presented at AnsibleFest, our fall conference, Budd Warrack, I'm butchering his last name, but he came on and told how the networking team at Microsoft supports about 35,000 access points across hundreds of buildings, all the Microsoft campuses using Ansible to do that. Fantastic story if you want to go on YouTube and look up that use case. So Microsoft is an avid user of the Ansible technology in their environment. >> Azure is kind of this really, I mean, incredible strategic platform for Microsoft. I wonder if you could talk about Azure as a honeypot for partners. I mean, it seems, I mean, the momentum is unbelievable. I mean, I pay attention to their earnings calls every quarter of Azure growth, even though I don't know what the exact number is, 'cause they won't give it to me but they give me the growth rates and it's actually accelerating. >> No lie. (Tracie laughing) >> I've got my number. It's in the tens of billions. I mean, I'm north of 35 billion, but growing at the high 30%. I mean, it's remarkable. So talk about the importance of that to the ecosystem as a honey pot. >> Paul Satia said it right. Many times partners are essential to our strategy. But if you think about it, software solves problems. We have software that solves problems. They have software that solves problems, right? So when IT and customers are thinking of solving a problem, they're thinking software, right? And we want that software to run on Azure. So partners have to be essential to our strategy. Absolutely. It's again, we're one team to the customer. They want to see that as working together seamlessly. They don't want it to be hardware Azure plus software. So that's absolutely critical to our success. >> And if I could add for us, the partners are super important. So some of our launch partners are like F5 and CyberArk who have certified Ansible content for Ansible on Azure. We have service provider partners like Accenture and Kindra that are launching with us and providing our joint customers with help to get up to speed. So it really is a partner play. >> Absolutely. >> Where are you guys taking this? Where do you want to see it go? What are some of the things that observers should pay attention to as marketers of success and evolution? >> Well, certainly for us, it's obviously customer adoption, but it is providing them with patterns. So out of the box patterns that makes it easy for them to get up and running and solve the use cases and problems that they run into most frequently. Problems ain't the right word. Challenges or opportunities on Azure to be able to automate the things. So we're really leaning into the different use cases, whether it's edge, whether it's cloud, whether it's cloud to edge, all of those things. We want to provide users with out of the box Ansible content that allows 'em to just get up and automating super fast, and doing that on Azure makes it way easier for us because we don't have to focus on the install and the setting up and configuring it. It's all just part of the experience >> And Tracie, for Microsoft, it's world domination with a smile. (all laughing) >> Of course. No, of course not. No, I think it's to continue to grow the co-engineering we do across all of the Red Hat products. I can't even tell you the number of things we work on together, but to look forward strategically at what opportunities we have across our products and theirs to integrate like Arc and Ansible, and then making it all easy to buy, making it available so that customers have choice and they can buy how they want to and simplify. So we're just going to continue to do that and we're at that infancy right now and as we grow, it'll just get easier and easier with more and more products. >> Well, bringing the edge into the equation is going to be really interesting. Microsoft with its gaming, vector is amazing, and recent, awesome acquisitions. All the gamers are excited about that and that's a huge edge play. >> You'll have to bring my son on for that interview. >> Yeah. >> My son will interview. >> He knows more than all of us, I'm sure. What about Ansible? What's ahead for Ansible? >> Edge, so part of the Red Hat play at the Edge. We've getting a lot of customer pull for both industrial Edge use cases in the energy sector. We've had a joint customer with Azure that has a combined Edge platform. Certainly, the cloud stuff that we're announcing today is a huge growth area. And then just general enterprise automation. There's lots of room to run there for Ansible. >> And lots of industries, right? >> Yeah. >> Telco, manufacturing. >> Retail. >> Retail. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There's so many places to go, yeah, that need the help. >> The market's just, how you going to count it anymore? It's just enormous. >> Yeah. >> It's the entire GDP the world. But guys, thanks for coming to theCUBE. >> Yeah. >> Great story. Congratulations on the partnership and the announcements and look forward to speaking with you in the future. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> Thanks for having us. >> You're very welcome. And keep it right there. This is Dave Vellante for Paul Gillin. This is theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. We'll be right back at Seaport in Boston. (gentle music)

>>mhm. Welcome back to Boston. This is the cubes coverage of the Red Hat Summit 2022. The first Red Hat Summit we've done face to face in at least two years. 2019 was our last one. We're kind of rounding the far turn, you know, coming up for the home stretch. My name is Dave Valentin here with Paul Gillon. A J monger is here is a senior director of Iot. The Iot group for developer solutions and engineering at Intel. AJ, thanks for coming on the Cube. Thank you so much. We heard your colleague this morning and the keynote talking about the Dev Cloud. I feel like I need a Dev Cloud. What's it all about? >>So, um, we've been, uh, working with developers and the ecosystem for a long time, trying to build edge solutions. A lot of time people think about it. Solutions as, like, just computer the edge. But what really it is is you've got to have some component of the cloud. There is a network, and there is edge and edge is complicated because of the variety of devices that you need. And when you're building a solution, you got to figure out, like, where am I going to push the computer? How much of the computer I'm going to run in the cloud? How much of the computer? I'm gonna push it at the network and how much I need to run it at the edge. A lot of times what happens for developers is they don't have one environment where all of the three come together. And so what we said is, um, today the way it works is you have all these edge devices that customers by the instal, they set it up and they try to do all of that. And then they have a cloud environment they do to their development. And then they figure out how all of this comes together. And all of these things are only when they are integrating it at the customer at the solution space is when they try to do it. So what we did is we took all of these edge devices, put it in the cloud and gave one environment for cloud to the edge. Very good to your complete solution. >>Essentially simulates. >>No, it's not >>simulating span. So the cloud spans the cloud, the centralised cloud out to the edge. You >>know, what we did is we took all of these edge devices that will theoretically get deployed at the edge like we took all these variety of devices and putting it put it in a cloud environment. So these are non rack mountable devices that you can buy in the market today that you just have, like, we have about 500 devices in the cloud that you have from atom to call allusions to F. P. G s to head studio cards to graphics. All of these devices are available to you. So in one environment you have, like, you can connect to any of the cloud the hyper scholars, you could connect to any of these network devices. You can define your network topology. You could bring in any of your sources that is sitting in the gate repository or docker containers that may be sitting somewhere in a cloud environment, or it could be sitting on a docker hub. You can pull all of these things together, and we give you one place where you can build it where you can test it. You can performance benchmark it so you can know when you're actually going to the field to deploy it. What type of sizing you need. So >>let me show you, understand? If I want to test, uh, an actual edge device using 100 gig Ethernet versus an Mpls versus the five G, you can do all that without virtualizing. >>So all the H devices are there today, and the network part of it, we are building with red hat together where we are putting everything on this environment. So the network part of it is not quite yet solved, but that's what we want to solve. But the goal is here is you can let's say you have five cameras or you have 50 cameras with different type of resolutions. You want to do some ai inference type of workloads at the edge. What type of compute you need, what type of memory you need, How many devices do you need and where do you want to push the data? Because security is very important at the edge. So you gotta really figure out like I've got to secure the data on flight. I want to secure the data at Brest, and how do you do the governance of it. How do you kind of do service governance? So that all the services different containers that are running on the edge device, They're behaving well. You don't have one container hogging up all the memory or hogging up all the compute, or you don't have, like, certain points in the day. You might have priority for certain containers. So all of these mortals, where do you run it? So we have an environment that you could run all of that. >>Okay, so take that example of AI influencing at the edge. So I've got an edge device and I've developed an application, and I'm going to say Okay, I want you to do the AI influencing in real time. You got something? They become some kind of streaming data coming in, and I want you to persist, uh, every hour on the hour. I want to save that time stamp. Or if the if some event, if a deer runs across the headlights, I want you to persist that day to send that back to the cloud and you can develop that tested, benchmark >>it right, and then you can say that. Okay, look in this environment I have, like, five cameras, like at different angles, and you want to kind of try it out. And what we have is a product which is into, um, open vino, which is like an open source product, which does all of the optimizations you need for age in France. So you develop the like to recognise the deer in your example. I developed the training model somewhere in the cloud. Okay, so I have, like, I developed with all of the things have annotated the different video streams. And I know that I'm recognising a deer now. Okay, so now you need to figure out Like when the deer is coming and you want to immediately take an action. You don't want to send all of your video streams to the cloud. It's too expensive. Bandwidth costs a lot. So you want to compute that inference at the edge? Okay. In order to do that inference at the edge, you need some environment. You should be able to do it. And to build that solution What type of age device do you really need? What type of compute you need? How many cameras are you computing it? What different things you're not only recognising a deer, probably recognising some other objects could do all of that. In fact, one of the things happened was I took my nephew to San Diego Zoo and he was very disappointed that he couldn't see the chimpanzees. Uh, that was there, right, the gorillas and other things. So he was very sad. So I said, All right, there should be a better way. I saw, like there was a stream of the camera feed that was there. So what we did is we did an edge in friends and we did some logic to say, At this time of the day, the gorillas get fed, so there's likelihood of you actually seeing the gorilla is very high. So you just go at that point and so that you see >>it, you >>capture, That's what you do, and you want to develop that entire solution. It's based on whether, based on other factors, you need to bring all of these services together and build a solution, and we offer an environment that allows you to do it. Will >>you customise the the edge configuration for the for the developer If if they want 50 cameras. That's not You don't have 50 cameras available, right? >>It's all cameras. What we do is we have a streaming capability that we support so you can upload all your videos. And you can say I want to now simulate 50 streams. Want to simulate 30 streams? Or I want to do this right? Or just like two or three videos that you want to just pull in. And you want to be able to do the infant simultaneously, running different algorithms at the edge. All of that is supported, and the bigger challenge at the edge is developing. Solution is fine. And now when you go to actual deployment and post deployment monitoring, maintenance, make sure that you're like managing it. It's very complicated. What we have seen is over 50% 51% to be precise of developers are developed some kind of a cloud native applications recently, right? So that we believe that if you bring that type of a cloud native development model to the edge, then you're scaling problem. Your maintenance problem, you're like, how do you actually deploy it? All of these challenges can be better managed, Um, and if you run all of that is an orchestration later on kubernetes and we run everything on top of open shift, so you have a deployment ready solution already there it's everything is containerised everything. You have it as health charged Dr Composed. You have all their you have tested and in this environment, and now you go take that to the deployment. And if it is there on any standard kubernetes environment or in an open ship, you can just straight away deploy your application. >>What's that edge architecture looked like? What's Intel's and red hats philosophy around? You know what's programmable and it's different. I know you can run a S, a p a data centre. You guys got that covered? What's the edge look like? What's that architecture of silicon middleware? Describe that for us. >>So at the edge, you think about it, right? It can run traditional, Uh, in an industrial PC. You have a lot of Windows environment. You have a lot of the next. They're now in a in an edge environment. Quite a few of these devices. I'm not talking about Farage where there are tiny micro controllers and these devices I'm talking about those devices that connect to these forage devices. Collect the data. Do some analytics do some compute that type of thing. You have foraged devices. Could be a camera. Could be a temperature sensor. Could be like a weighing scale. Could be anything. It could be that forage and then all of that data instead of pushing all the data to the cloud. In order for you to do the analysis, you're going to have some type of an edge set of devices where it is collecting all this data, doing some decisions that's close to the data. You're making some analysis there, all of that stuff, right? So you need some analysis tools, you need certain other things. And let's say that you want to run like, UH, average costs or rail or any of these operating systems at the edge. Then you have an ability for you to manage all of that. Using a control note, the control node can also sit at the edge. In some cases, like in a smart factory, you have a little data centre in a smart factory or even in a retail >>store >>behind a closet. You have, like a bunch of devices that are sitting there, correct. And those devices all can be managed and clustered in an environment. So now the question is, how do you deploy applications to that edge? How do you collect all the data that is sitting through the camera? Other sensors and you're processing it close to where the data is being generated make immediate decisions. So the architecture would look like you have some club which does some management of this age devices management of this application, some type of control. You have some network because you need to connect to that. Then you have the whole plethora of edge, starting from an hybrid environment where you have an entire, like a mini data centre sitting at the edge. Or it could be one or two of these devices that are just collecting data from these sensors and processing it that is the heart of the other challenge. The architecture varies from different verticals, like from smart cities to retail to healthcare to industrial. They have all these different variations. They need to worry about these, uh, different environments they are going to operate under, uh, they have different regulations that they have to look into different security protocols that they need to follow. So your solution? Maybe it is just recognising people and identifying if they are wearing a helmet or a coal mine, right, whether they are wearing a safety gear equipment or not, that solution versus you are like driving in a traffic in a bike, and you, for safety reasons. We want to identify the person is wearing a helmet or not. Very different use cases, very different environments, different ways in which you are operating. But that is where the developer needs to have. Similar algorithms are used, by the way, but how you deploy it very, quite a bit. >>But the Dev Cloud make sure I understand it. You talked about like a retail store, a great example. But that's a general purpose infrastructure that's now customised through software for that retail environment. Same thing with Telco. Same thing with the smart factory, you said, not the far edge, right, but that's coming in the future. Or is that well, that >>extends far edge, putting everything in one cloud environment. We did it right. In fact, I put some cameras on some like ipads and laptops, and we could stream different videos did all of that in a data centre is a boring environment, right? What are you going to see? A bunch of racks and service, So putting far edge devices there didn't make sense. So what we did is you could just have an easy ability for you to stream or connect or a Plourde This far edge data that gets generated at the far edge. Like, say, time series data like you can take some of the time series data. Some of the sensor data are mostly camera data videos. So you upload those videos and that is as good as your streaming those videos. Right? And that means you are generating that data. And then you're developing your solution with the assumption that the camera is observing whatever is going on. And then you do your age inference and you optimise it. You make sure that you size it, and then you have a complete solution. >>Are you supporting all manner of microprocessors at the edge, including non intel? >>Um, today it is all intel, but the plan, because we are really promoting the whole open ecosystem and things like that in the future. Yes, that is really talking about it, so we want to be able to do that in the future. But today it's been like a lot of the we were trying to address the customers that we are serving today. We needed an environment where they could do all of this, for example, and what circumstances would use I five versus i nine versus putting an algorithm on using a graphics integrated graphics versus running it on a CPU or running it on a neural computer stick. It's hard, right? You need to buy all those devices you need to experiment your solutions on all of that. It's hard. So having everything available in one environment, you could compare and contrast to see what type of a vocal or makes best sense. But it's not >>just x 86 x 86 your portfolio >>portfolio of F. P. G s of graphics of like we have all what intel supports today and in future, we would want to open it up. So how >>do developers get access to this cloud? >>It is all free. You just have to go sign up and register and, uh, you get access to it. It is difficult dot intel dot com You go there, and the container playground is all available for free for developers to get access to it. And you can bring in container workloads there, or even bare metal workloads. Um, and, uh, yes, all of it is available for you >>need to reserve the endpoint devices. >>Comment. That is where it is. An interesting technology. >>Govern this. Correct. >>So what we did was we built a kind of a queuing system. Okay, So, schedule, er so you develop your application in a controlled north, and only you need the edge device when you're scheduling that workload. Okay, so we have this scheduling systems, like we use Kafka and other technologies to do the scheduling in the container workload environment, which are all the optimised operators that are available in an open shift, um, environment. So we regard those operators. Were we installed it. So what happens is you take your work, lord, and you run it. Let's say on an I seven device, when you're running that workload and I summon device, that device is dedicated to you. Okay, So and we've instrumented each of these devices with telemetry so we could see at the point your workload is running on that particular device. What is the memory looking like power looking like How hard is the device running? What is a compute looking like? So we capture all that metrics. Then what you do is you take it and run it on a 99 or run it on a graphic, so can't run it on an F p g a. Then you compare and contrast. And you say Huh? Okay for this particular work, Lord, this device makes best sense. In some cases, I'll tell you. Right, Uh, developers have come back and told me I don't need a bigger process that I need bigger memory. >>Yeah, sure, >>right. And some cases they've said, Look, I have I want to prioritise accuracy over performance because if you're in a healthcare setting, accuracy is more important. In some cases, they have optimised it for the size of the device because it needs to fit in the right environment in the right place. So every use case where you optimise is up to the solution up to the developer, and we give you an ability for you to do that kind >>of folks are you seeing? You got hardware developers, you get software developers are right, people coming in. And >>we have a lot of system integrators. We have enterprises that are coming in. We are seeing a lot of, uh, software solution developers, independent software developers. We also have a lot of students are coming in free environment for them to kind of play with in sort of them having to buy all of these devices. We're seeing those people. Um I mean, we are pulling through a lot of developers in this environment currently, and, uh, we're getting, of course, feedback from the developers. We are just getting started here. We are continuing to improve our capabilities. We are adding, like, virtualisation capabilities. We are working very closely with red hat to kind of showcase all the goodness that's coming out of red hat, open shift and other innovations. Right? We heard, uh, like, you know, in one of the open shift sessions, they're talking about micro shifts. They're talking about hyper shift, the talking about a lot of these innovations, operators, everything that is coming together. But where do developers play with all of this? If you spend half your time trying to configure it, instal it and buy the hardware, Trying to figure it out. You lose patience. What we have time, you lose time. What is time and it's complicated, right? How do you set up? Especially when you involve cloud. It has network. It has got the edge. You need all of that right? Set up. So what we have done is we've set up everything for you. You just come in. And by the way, not only just that what we realised is when you go talk to customers, they don't want to listen to all our optimizations processors and all that. They want to say that I am here to solve my retail problem. I want to count the people coming into my store, right. I want to see that if there is any spills that I recognise and I want to go clean it up before a customer complaints about it or I have a brain tumour segmentation where I want to identify if the tumour is malignant or not, right and I want to telehealth solutions. So they're really talking about these use cases that are talking about all these things. So What we did is we build many of these use cases by talking to customers. We open sourced it and made it available on Death Cloud for developers to use as a starting point so that they have this retail starting point or they have this healthcare starting point. All these use cases so that they have all the court we have showed them how to contain arise it. The biggest problem is developers still don't know at the edge how to bring a legacy application and make it cloud native. So they just wrap it all into one doctor and they say, OK, now I'm containerised got a lot more to do. So we tell them how to do it, right? So we train these developers, we give them an opportunity to experiment with all these use cases so that they get closer and closer to what the customer solutions need to be. >>Yeah, we saw that a lot with the early cloud where they wrapped their legacy apps in a container, shove it into the cloud. Say it's really hosting a legacy. Apps is all it was. It wasn't It didn't take advantage of the cloud. Never Now people come around. It sounds like a great developer. Free resource. Take advantage of that. Where do they go? They go. >>So it's def cloud dot intel dot com >>death cloud dot intel dot com. Check it out. It's a great freebie, AJ. Thanks very much. >>Thank you very much. I really appreciate your time. All right, >>keep it right there. This is Dave Volonte for Paul Dillon. We're right back. Covering the cube at Red Hat Summit 2022. >>Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Mm.

>> We're back at the Seaport in Boston. Dave Vellante and Paul Gill. You're watching The Cubes coverage of Red Hat Summit, 2022. A little different this year, a smaller venue. Maybe a thousand people. Love the keynotes, compressed. Big virtual audience. So we're happy to be coming to you live, face to face. It's been a while since we've had these, for a lot of folks, this is their first in person event. You know, it's kind of weird getting used to that, but I think in the next few months, it's going to become the new, sort of quasi abnormal. Francis Chow is here. He's the Vice President and GM of In-Vehicle OS and Edge at Red Hat. Francis, welcome. That's the most interesting title we've had all week. So thanks for coming here. >> Thank you, Dave. Thank you, Paul, for having me here. >> So The Edge, I mean The Edge is, we heard about the International Space Station. We heard about ski boots, of course In-Vehicle. What's the Edge to you? >> Well, to me Edge actually could mean many different things, right? The way we look at Edge is, there is the traditional enterprise Edge, where this is the second tier, third tier data centers that this extension from your core, the network and your centralized data center, right to remote locations. And then there are like Telco Edge, right? where we know about the 5G network, right Where you deploy bay stations and which would have a different size of requirements right. Of traditional enterprise edge networks. And then there are Operational Edge where we see the line of business operating on those locations, right? Things like manufacturing for oil rigs, retail store, right? So very wide variety of Edge that are doing OT type of technology, and then last but not least there is the customer on or kind of device edge where we now putting things into things like cars, as you said, like ski booth, and have that interaction with the end consumers. >> Is this why? I mean, there's a lot of excitement at Red. I could tell among the Red hat people about this GM deal here is this why that's so exciting to them? This really encompasses sort of all of those variants of the edge in automotive, in automobile experience. Doesn't it? >> I think why this is exciting to the industry and also to us is that if you look at traditionally how automotive has designed, right the way the architect vehicle today has many subsystems, they are all purpose viewed, very tight cut, coupled with hardware and software. And it's very difficult to reuse, right? So their cause of development is high. The time to develop is long and adding to that there is a lengthy safety certification process which also kind of make it hard. Because every time you make a change in the system you have to re-certify it again. >> Right. >> And typically it takes about six to 12 months to do so. Every time you make a change. So very lengthy passes, which is important because we want to ensure occupants are safe in a vehicle. Now what we bring to the table, which I think is super exciting is we bring this platform approach. Now you can use a consistent platform that is open and you can actually now run multiple doming applications on the same platform which means automakers can reuse components across model years and brands. That will lower the development cost. Now I think one of the key things that we bring to the table is that we introduce a new safety certification approach called Continuous Safety Certification. We actually announced that in our summit last year with the intent, "Hey, we're going to deliver this functional certified Linux platform" Which is the first four Linux. And the way we do it is we work with our partner Excedr to try to define that approach. And at the high level the idea really is to automate that certification process just like how we automate software development. Right, we are adding that monitoring capabilities with functional safety related artifacts in our CI three pipeline. And we are able to aim to cut back that kind of certification time to a fraction of what is needed today. So what we can do, I think with this collaboration with GM, is help them get faster time to market, and then lower development costs. Now, adding to that, if you think about a modern Linux platform, you can update it over the air, right? This is the capability that we are working with GM as well. Now what customers can expect now, right for future vehicle is there will be updates on apps and services, just like your cell phone, right. Which makes your car more capable over time and more relevant for the long term. >> So there's some assumptions you're making at the edge. First of all, you described a spectrum retail store which you know, to me, okay, it's Edge, but you can take an X-86 box or a hyper converged infrastructure throw it in there. And there's some opportunities to do some stuff in real time, but it's kind of an extension natural extension of IT. Whereas in vehicle you got to make some assumptions spotty connectivity to do software download and you can't do truck rolls at the far edge, right? None of that is okay, and so there's some assumptions there and as you say, your role is to compress the time to market, but also deliver a better consumer >> Absolutely. >> Experience, so what can we expect? You started to talk about the future of in vehicle, you know, or EVs, if you will, what should we expect as consumers? You, you're saying over the year software we're seeing that with some of the EV makers, for sure. But what's the future look like? >> I think what consumers can expect is really over a period of time, right? A similar experience, like what you have with your mobile mobile device, right? If you look back 15, 20 years, right? You buy a phone, right? That's the feature that you have with your phone, right? No update, it is what it is right, for the lifetime of the product which is pretty much what you have now, if you buy a vehicle, right. You have those features capabilities and you allow it for the lifetime of the vehicle. >> Sometimes you have to drive in for a maintenance, a service to get a software update. >> We can talk about that too right. But as we make the systems, update-able right you can now expect more frequent and seamless update of both the operating system and the application services that sit on top of that. Right, so I think right in the future consumers can expect more capable vehicles after you purchase it because new developmental software can now be done with an update over the air. >> I assume this relationship with GM is not exclusive. Are you talking with other automakers as well? >> We are talking to auto makers, other auto makers. What we working with GM is really a product that could work for the industry, right? This is actually what we both believe in is the right thing to do right? As we are able to standardize how we approach the infrastructure. I think this is a good thing for the whole industry to help accelerate innovation for the entire industry. >> Well which is sort of natural next question. Are we heading toward an open automotive platform? Like we have an open banking platform in that industry. Do you see the possibility that there could be a single platform that all or most of the auto makers will work on? >> I wouldn't use the word single, but I definitely would use the word open. Right? Our goal is to build this open platform, right. Because we believe in open source, right. We believe in community, right. If we make it open, we have more contributors to come in and help to make the system better in a way faster. And actually like you said, right. Improve the quality, right, better. Right, so that the chance of recall is now lower with, with this approach. >> You're using validated patterns as part of this initiative. Is that right? And what is a validated pattern? How is it different from a reference architecture? Is it just kind of a new name for reference architecture? or what value does it bring to the relation? >> For automotive right, we don't have a validated pattern yet but they can broadly kind of speak about what that is. >> Yeah. >> And how we see that evolve over time. So validated pattern basically is a combination of Red Hat products, multiple Red Hat products and partner products. And we usually build it for specific use case. And then we put those components together run rigorous tests to validate it that's it going to work, so that it becomes more repeatable and deployable for those particular edge use cases. Now we do work with our partners to make it happen, right. Because in the end, right we want to make a solution that is about 80% of the way and allow our partners to kind of add more value and their secret sauce on top and deploy it. Right, and I'll give you kind of one example, right You just have the interview with the Veterans Affairs team, right. One of our patents, right? The Medical Diagnosis Pattern, right. Actually we work with them in the early development stage of that. Right, what it does is to help make assessments on pneumonia with chest X rates, right. So it's a fully automated data pipeline. We get the chest x-ray from an object store use AIML to diagnose whether there's new pneumonia. And then I'll put that in a dashboard automated with the validated pattern. >> So you're not using them today, but can we expect that in the future? It sounds like >> Yes absolutely it's in the works, yes. >> It would be a perfect vertical. >> How do you believe your work with GM? I mean, has implications across Red hat? It seems like there are things you're going to be doing with GM that could affect other parts of your own product portfolio. >> Oh, absolutely. I think this actually is, it's a pivotal moment for Red Hat and the automotive industry. And I think broadly speaking for any safety conscious industry, right. As we create this Proof-point right that we can build a Linux system that is optimized for footprint performance, realtime capabilities, and be able to certify it for safety. Right I think all the adjacent industry, right. You think about transportation, healthcare, right. Industry that have tight safety requirements. It's just opened up the aperture for us to adjust those markets in the future. >> So we talked about a lot about the consumerization of IT over the last decade. Many of us feel as though that what's going on at the Edge, the innovations that are going on at the Edge realtime AI inferencing, you know, streaming data ARM, the innovations that ARM and others are performing certainly in video until we heard today, this notion of, you know, no touch, zero touch provisioning that a lot of these innovations are actually going to find their way into the enterprise. Kind of a follow on fault of what you were just talking about. And there's probably some future disruptions coming. You can almost guarantee that, I mean, 15 years or so we get that kind of disruption. How are you thinking about that? >> Well, I think you company, right. Some of the Edge innovation, right. You're going to kind of bring back to enterprise over time. Right but the one thing that you talk about zero touch provisioning right. Is critical right? You think about edge deployments. You're going to have to deal with a very diverse set of environments on how deployments are happen. Right think about like tail code based stations, right. You have somewhere between 75,000 to 100,000 base stations in the US for each provider right. How do you deploy it? Right, if you let's say you push one update or you want the provision system. So what we bring to the table in the latest open shift release is that, hey we make provisioning zero touch right, meaning you can actually do that without any menu intervention. >> Yeah, so I think the Edge is going to raise the bar for the enterprise, I guess is my premise there. >> Absolutely. >> So Francis, thanks so much for coming on The Cube. It's great to see you and congratulations on the collaboration. It's a exciting area for you guys. >> Thank you again, Dave and Paul. >> Our pleasure, all right keep it right there. After this quick break, we'll be back. Paul Gill and Dave Vellante you're watching The Cubes coverage Red Hat Summit 2022 live from the Boston Seaport. Be right back.

(pulsing music) (digital music) >> Welcome back to the Seaport in Boston. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. A lot of bummed out Bruins fans, but a lot of happy Celtics fans. We're optimistic for tonight, Boston's crazy sports town, but we're talking tech, we're talking open source. Dr. Amanda Purnell is here. She's the director of data and analytics innovation at the US Department of Veteran Affairs, and Ben Cushing is the chief architect for federal health and life sciences at Red Hat. Folks, welcome to theCUBE, thank for coming on. >> Thank you for having us. >> So glad to be here. >> So we heard your keynote this morning, project Arches. Now you were telling us just briefly about your previous life as a clinician. >> That's right. >> That's really interesting, because you know what the outcome has to be. So talk about that project in your perspective. What the goals were and how you actually got it done. >> I could tell the long view. I'm a psychologist by training. I spent the first 10 years of my VA career providing care to veterans. So engaging in healthcare behavior change, providing training to providers and really trying to understand what is the care pathway for veterans, what's the experience of veterans along each of those touchpoints, and it became clear to me over time that there were opportunities for us to improve the transitions of care and provide better information at the right time to improve those decisions that are being made at the point of care. Ben and I were just talking before we began today, part of the core of the development of Arches was beginning with human-centered design. We wanted to interview and better understand what was the experience across the VA of many different stakeholders and trying to access meaningful information, understand in that moment what do I need to make a decision with a veteran or what do I need to make a decision with my care team and how can I improve the quality of care for veterans? And so, hundreds of interviews later, it became clear to us that we wanted to help those individuals already working for the VA to continue to improve excellence of care and one of those ways that we're trying to do that is using technology to make life easier for our veterans and for our clinicians. >> I always like to say, they say, "Follow the money." I like to follow the data. And you said something in your keynote about nurses have to have access to information and it just gets to an architectural question, because as a caregiver, you have to get insights and data and you need it fast, 'cause you're saving lives, but a lot of times, architectures are very centralized. They're monolithic and you have to beg, borrow, steal, break through blockers to get to the data that you need. How do you square that circle in today's world? Maybe you could talk about that, and then specific to Arches, how you dealt with that. >> I can dive into that a little bit. I have to say, Amanda had touched on this during the keynote, VA was one of the first, if not the first, healthcare organizations in the world to actually adopt electronic health records and because of that, they just have this incredibly rich amount of historical data and the challenge, as you pointed out, is gaining access to it. So there are a number of programs within VA designed specifically for that. And they are bringing data not just from the data warehouses, but also data from the electronic health records that are running inside of VA right now, and then also third party community data sets, as well as applications that run inside the VA. Now the value here really happens when you produce insights. Data by itself is useless. >> Lot of data out there. They're plentiful. >> You need to create knowledge and then you need that knowledge to inform your process that comes next. Those actions are really what matters. All of healthcare is process and activity and data is really just a historical record. I mean, all data that we look at is happening in the past and then as we're reading it, we're producing knowledge, again, to inform our process. Arches, the program itself, is right in that space at the knowledge layer of actually taking that data and turning it into actual insight and something that is usable and insightful for clinicians to affect the ability to deliver better care and also to actually improve their own working experience. A lot of the models that are getting built out are specifically designed to help their workflow, help them reach better outcomes for the veterans, but also for themselves, because if we can care for the providers, it'll certainly help them care for the patients even more so. >> So how does it work? I mean, from the provider's perspective, how was their life improved by Arches? >> That's a great question. We want to make it easier to access the information. So as Ben noted, the average person providing care in the field doesn't know how to code, doesn't know how to pull a unique request for an individual data point, and what we're trying to do with Arches is provide a user interface that allows for both a non-technical person and a very technical person to access information, and then what gets provisioned in front of a provider is something that is farther abstracted from the underlying data layer and more like here's a specific insight. So I use the example in my keynote of chronic kidney disease. So what's provisioned to the provider in that moment is this person is at higher risk for chronic kidney disease based on this basic information. So it's surfacing just the right amount of information to allow for that care pathway to be improved, but the physician doesn't need to see all of the layers of code underneath. They need to trust that it's worthwhile, but they don't need to know all the background abstractions. >> So it's a self-service, essentially, infrastructure in that sense. You're hiding the underlying complexities. You gave an example in your keynote of an individual who realized that they were under counting the probability of a potential disease for African Americans. >> Yes. >> I believe she just rewrote the algorithm. >> She did. >> Describe that process, because in a lot of organizations, injecting that new algorithm may have required new data sources, would take an act of the Pope to do. How did it work in Arches? >> This is what I get excited about with Arches is that we have the opportunity to empower enthusiastic people like Dr. Joshi to discover an insight and she's a talented informaticist, so she could do the technical work and provision a container for her to work in, for her to do the data analysis, the underground stuff that we're not letting the average provider have to cope with. We were able to provision the tools that she need, the environment that she needed to be able to test and develop the new insight, confirm that they're there and then begin to validate that and test it in other facilities. So our thinking is, how do we bring the resources to the users rather than saying to the users, "This is what's available. Good luck." (chuckles) >> So we've been talking a lot about, I'm sorry, go ahead. >> I want to add on to that. What we're actually experiencing inside of healthcare right now is the emergence of of learning health systems. >> Yes. >> And this is a great example of that. The terrifying number is, it takes 17 years for new knowledge that gets created with healthcare research, whether it's NIH or VA or elsewhere, it takes 17 years for those practices to make their way into practice. Generally the way that happens is through the education of new staff. And so the dissemination of that knowledge is just so freaking slow that we cannot move nimbly enough to take on that new knowledge and actually implement it in clinical space. What Amanda's describing is something that now happens in months. New knowledge getting produced and then actually getting disseminated out, both the insights, whether they are those probabilities, predictions and recommendations and the actual processes, which are getting automated, as well. So if you think about healthcare as just a process, you can automate a whole lot of that and we can move that needle really fast and actually take that 70-year number down to a couple months. >> In the early days when we were all talking about AI and getting excited about digital, I would often ask the question, will machines be able to make better diagnoses than doctors and to your point, Ben, that's not the right question. >> Exactly. >> It isn't the right question. >> The question is, how can machines compress the time to better patient outcomes- >> Yes. >> in concert with humans and that's what we're seeing now. >> That's right, it's surfacing those insights to start a conversation. >> We've been talking a lot about artificial intelligence for the last two days. As clinician or someone with a clinical background, how do you see the clinical experience changing as machines grow more intelligent? >> I think that there's a learning curve for people to feel confident in an artificial intelligence. It makes sense. So someone spent decades, perhaps, of their life obtaining medical training, doing fellowships, doing additional training that they have trust in that deep training. There are times, however, where a technology is able to surface something that we didn't know that we didn't know and it's important, as we make use of artificial intelligence, that we clearly validate it with independent means and that we clearly also bring in additional analysis to understand what are the elements and then test that new technology in an environment before we scale it widely, so that clinicians can see, yes, this was useful. If it wasn't useful, how can we make it even better? So it goes back to what we were talking about earlier that we have to bring in human-centered design to figuring out how do we make use of AI or machine learning models and make sure that there's trust in those models and that we can clearly articulate value for the clinicians and care teams on the ground. >> Is that a natural evolution of Arches? >> This is all built around it. Arches is the technology platform, but there's no magical technology that's going to change how humans interact. And so the way we think about each project is we think about what are the technological components and what are the human factors components? And we have to think about the entire care pathway. I'll go back to that example, the chronic kidney disease. She identified that we were under identifying African Americans for chronic kidney disease. So she changed the algorithm. Not only did she change the algorithm, we also had to think about who would be informed of those changes, how would that change, who would be connected to the veteran in that point of care and build out the care pathway in the care team and that's really how you actually influence an outcome. Surfacing an insight is important, but it's one part of a much larger picture. >> So what is Arches? You said it's a technology platform built on open source. At least, there's a lot of open source in there. And it's got API connectors to all the legacy technologies that you need it to. Can you describe, paint a picture of what it actually is? >> Arches is evolving as it should. So it's designed to meet the unique needs that aren't being met by other infrastructure in the VA. So we started first by identifying the need for cloud compute, so it's in the cloud, it has open source technology so that we're not stuck with any one provider and also has the ability to use containers to be able to move insights out of Arches to an enterprise solution. We're also bringing in multi-cloud strategy, which also something had been discussed quite a bit at this conference, to make sure that we're not saying only one cloud provider can be the solution for veterans' needs. Our mission is serving veterans and so we want to have access to all the technology and not just one and so we're looking at how do we expand the scope to make sure that we have the most variety possible so we can meet the needs of veterans. >> I can add a little bit to it, as well. Think of Arches as a program. It's an incubation space under the office of innovation. So it's a place where the governance allows for trying new ideas and really pushing the envelope for VA in general. There's not a lot of organizations, if any at VA, that allow for that type of incubation and so Arches is in a unique position to create new technologies and new novel approaches to solving big problems. And then the next step to that is moving the work from Arches out into the enterprise, as you called it out. So for instance, the system of engagement where the actual clinicians interact with patients, the model needs to find its way there and we can't do that in a way that disturbs the current workflow that the clinicians have. We need to be able to bring the model to where the clinician is, have those recommendations, probabilities and predictions surfaced to the clinician in a way that is precise to their existing workflow. They need it at the time they need it. Arches itself is not delivering that part of it. It's more like the place where the innovation happens and the incubation really occurs and then it's about taking this container, really, and moving out to other systems that are already deployed out to the hospitals, the edge, and in the cloud. >> And the federated governance occurs in Arches or elsewhere? >> It happens across the continuum. It's starting in Arches. the clinical validation that happens there is wickedly important, because the clinicians need to know that what they're working with is actually legit. And so when they know that the researchers and the clinicians who are involved in that incubation period have done their work, they can feel confident with the recommendations they're getting from the machine learning models that are getting deployed to one of them. >> So many questions, so little time. What's the business impact? How would you describe that? >> For me, it's an emotional impact. People have a sense of, "I have a place to develop a solution and I can get in there quick, and I can test out an idea. I could potentially partner with an external partner or if I have the talents and skills to do it myself." It's empowering all of those innovators who have great ideas to work together to test and develop and validate solutions, and they're not waiting years to get the idea off the ground. >> Amazing. >> Go ahead, bring it. >> Is Arches open source? >> Arches is a platform and it has open source component. So that the underlying infrastructure of technology is open source. >> Why was it important to you that this be built on an open source platform? >> It's important for us that we not marry ourself to any one technology and that we allow for, as much as possible, transparency and many different tools and the right tools for the right solution. So we didn't want to find ourselves connected to only one way of doing things. We want to have versatility to have the right tool for the right problem at the right time. >> I'm so sorry, we're out of time. This is so interesting and I really appreciate you here guys, coming on and sharing your insights for theCUBE audience. All right, keep it right there. This is Dave Vellante for Paul Gillin. We're in day two of Red Hat Summit 2022. You're watching theCUBE. (digital pulsing music) >> Due to the pandemic, the federal government declared a public health emergency, which created an urgency for healthcare coverage. >> One of the biggest-

(bright upbeat music) >> We're back at the Red Hat Summit at the Seaport in Boston, theCUBE's coverage. This is day two. Dave Vellante and Paul Gillin. Chris Wright is here, the chief technology officer at Red Hat. Chris, welcome back to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Yeah, likewise. Thanks for having me. >> You're very welcome. So, you were saying today in your keynote. We got a lot of ground to cover here, Chris. You were saying that, you know, software, Andreessen's software is eating the world. Software ate the world, is what you said. And now we have to think about AI. AI is eating the world. What does that mean? What's the implication for customers and developers? >> Well, a lot of implications. I mean, to start with, just acknowledging that software isn't this future dream. It is the reality of how businesses run today. It's an important part of understanding what you need to invest in to make yourself successful, essentially, as a software company, where all companies are building technology to differentiate themselves. Take that, all that discipline, everything we've learned in that context, bring in AI. So, we have a whole new set of skills to learn, tools to create and discipline processes to build around delivering data-driven value into the company, just the way we've built software value into companies. >> I'm going to cut right to the chase because I would say data is eating software. Data and AI, to me, are like, you know, kissing cousins. So here's what I want to ask you as a technologist. So we have the application development stack, if you will. And it's separate from the data and analytics stack. All we talk about is injecting AI into applications, making them data-driven. You just used that term. But they're totally two totally separate stacks, organizationally and technically. Are those worlds coming together? Do they have to come together in order for the AI vision to be real? >> Absolutely, so, totally agree with you on the data piece. It's inextricably linked to AI and analytics and all of the, kind of, machine learning that goes on in creating intelligence for applications. The application connection to a machine learning model is fundamental. So, you got to think about not just the software developer or the data scientist, but also there's a line of business in there that's saying, "Here's the business outcomes I'm looking for." It's that trifecta that has to come together to make advancements and really make change in the business. So, you know, some of the folks we had on stage today were talking about exactly that. Which is, how do you bring together those three different roles? And there's technology that can help bridge gaps. So, we look at what we call intelligent applications. Embed intelligence into the application. That means you surface a machine learning model with APIs to make it accessible into applications, so that developers can query a machine learning model. You need to do that with some discipline and rigor around, you know, what does it mean to develop this thing and life cycle it and integrate it into this bigger picture. >> So the technology is capable of coming together. You know, Amanda Purnell is coming on next. >> Oh, great. >> 'Cause she was talking about, you know, getting, you know, insights in the hands of nurses and they're not coders. >> That's right. >> But they need data. But I feel like it's, well, I feel very strongly that it's an organizational challenge, more so. I think you're confirming. It's not really a technical challenge. I can insert a column into the application development stack and bring TensorFlow in or AI or data, whatever it is. It's not a technical issue. Is that fair? >> Well, there are some technical challenges. So, for example, data scientists. Kind of a scarce kind of skillset within any business. So, how do you scale data scientists into the developer population? Which will be a large population within an organization. So, there's tools that we can use to bring those worlds together. So, you know, it's not just TensorFlow but it's the entire workflow and platform of how you share the data, the data training models and then just deploying models into a runtime production environment. That looks similar to software development processes but it's slightly different. So, that's where a common platform can help bridge the gaps between that developer world and the data science world. >> Where is Red Hat's position in this evolving AI stack? I mean, you're not into developing tool sets like TensorFlow, right? >> Yeah, that's right. If you think about a lot of what we do, it's aggregate content together, bring a distribution of tools, giving flexibility to the user. Whether that's a developer, a system administrator, or a data scientist. So our role here is, one, make sure we work with our hardware partners to create accelerated environments for AI. So, that's sort of an enablement thing. The other is bring together those disparate tools into a workflow and give a platform that enables data scientists to choose which, is it PyTorch, is it TensorFlow? What's the best tool for you? And assemble that tool into your workflow and then proceed training, doing inference, and, you know, tuning and lather, rinse, repeat. >> So, to make your platform then, as receptive as possible, right? You're not trying to pick winners in what languages to work with or what frameworks? >> Yeah, that's right. I mean, picking winners is difficult. The world changes so rapidly. So we make big bets on key areas and certainly TensorFlow would be a great example. A lot of community attraction there. But our goal isn't to say that's the one tool that everybody should use. It's just one of the many tools in your toolbox. >> There are risks of not pursuing this, from an organization's perspective. A customer, they kind of get complacent and, you know, they could get disrupted, but there's also an industry risk. If the industry can't deliver this capability, what are the implications if the industry doesn't step up? I believe the industry will, just 'cause it always does. But what about customer complacency? We certainly saw that a lot with digital transformation and COVID sort of forced us to march to digital. What should we be thinking about of the implications of not leaning in? >> Well, I think that the disruption piece is key because there's always that spectrum of businesses. Some are more leaning in, invested in the future. Some are more laggards and kind of wait and see. Those leaning in tend to be separating themselves, wheat from the chaff. So, that's an important way to look at it. Also, if you think about it, many data science experiments fail within businesses. I think part of that is not having the rigor and discipline around connecting, not just the tools and data scientists together, but also looking at what business outcomes are you trying to drive? If you don't bring those things together then it sort of can be too academic and the business doesn't see the value. And so there's also the question of transparency. How do you understand why is a model predicting you should take a certain action or do a certain thing? As an industry, I think we need to focus on bringing tools together, bringing data together, and building better transparency into how models work. >> There's also a lot of activity around governance right now, AI governance. Particularly removing bias from ML models. Is that something that you are guiding your customers on? Or, how important do you feel this is at this point of AI's development? >> It's really important. I mean, the challenge is finding it and understanding, you know, we bring data that maybe already carrying a bias into a training process and building a model around that. How do you understand what the bias is in that model? There's a lot of open questions there and academic research to try to understand how you can ferret out, you know, essentially biased data and make it less biased or unbiased. Our role is really just bringing the toolset together so that you have the ability to do that as a business. So, we're not necessarily building the next machine learning algorithm or models or ways of building transparency into models, as much as building the platform and bringing the tools together that can give you that for your own organization. >> So, it brings up the question of architectures. I've been sort of a casual or even active observer of data architectures over the last, whatever, 15 years. They've been really centralized. Our data teams are highly specialized. You mentioned data scientists, but there's data engineers and there's data analysts and very hyper specialized roles that don't really scale that well. So there seems to be a move, talk about edge. We're going to talk about edge. The ultimate edge, which is space, very cool. But data is distributed by its very nature. We have this tendency to try to force it into this, you know, monolithic system. And I know that's a pejorative, but for good reason. So I feel like there's this push in organizations to enable scale, to decentralize data architectures. Okay, great. And put data in the hands of those business owners that you talked about earlier. The domain experts that have business context. Two things, two problems that brings up, is you need infrastructure that's self-service, in that instance. And you need, to your point, automated and computational governance. Those are real challenges. What do you see in terms of the trends to decentralize data architectures? Is it even feasible that everybody wants a single version of the truth, centralized data team, right? And they seem to be at odds. >> Yeah, well I think we're coming from a history informed by centralization. That's what we understand. That's what we kind of gravitate towards, but the reality, as you put it, the world's just distributed. So, what we can do is look at federation. So, it's not necessarily centralization but create connections between data sources which requires some policy and governance. Like, who gets access to what? And also think about those domain experts maybe being the primary source of surfacing a model that you don't necessarily have to know how it was trained or what the internals are. You're using it more to query it as a, you know, the domain expert produces this model, you're in a different part of the organization just leveraging some work that somebody else has done. Which is how we build software, reusable components in software. So, you know, I think building that mindset into data and the whole process of creating value from data is going to be a really critical part of how we roll forward. >> So, there are two things in your keynote. One, that I was kind of in awe of. You wanted to be an astronaut when you were a kid. You know, I mean, I watched the moon landing and I was like, "I'm never going up into space." So, I'm in awe of that. >> Oh, I got the space helmet picture and all that. >> That's awesome, really, you know, hat's off to you. The other one really pissed me off, which was that you're a better skier 'cause you got some device in your boot. >> Oh, it's amazing. >> And the reason it angered me is 'cause I feel like it's the mathematicians taking over baseball, you know. Now, you're saying, you're a better skier because of that. But those are two great edge examples and there's a billion of them, right? So, talk about your edge strategy. Kind of, your passion there, how you see that all evolving. >> Well, first of all, we see the edge as a fundamental part of the future of computing. So in that centralization, decentralization pendulum swing, we're definitely on the path towards distributed computing and that is edge and that's because of data. And also because of the compute capabilities that we have in hardware. Hardware gets more capable, lower power, can bring certain types of accelerators into the mix. And you really create this world where what's happening in a virtual context and what's happening in a physical context can come together through this distributed computing system. Our view is, that's hybrid. That's what we've been working on for years. Just the difference was maybe, originally it was focused on data center, cloud, multi-cloud and now we're just extending that view out to the edge and you need the same kind of consistency for development, for operations, in the edge that you do in that hybrid world. So that's really where we're placing our focus and then it gets into all the different use cases. And you know, really, that's the fun part. >> I'd like to shift gears a little bit 'cause another remarkable statistic you cited during your keynote was, it was a Forrester study that said 99% of all applications now have open source in them. What are the implications of that for those who are building applications? In terms of license compliance and more importantly, I think, confidence in the code that they're borrowing from open source projects. >> Well, I think, first and foremost, it says open source has won. We see that that was audited code bases which means there's mission critical code bases. We see that it's pervasive, it's absolutely everywhere. And that means developers are pulling dependencies into their applications based on all of the genius that's happening in open source communities. Which I think we should celebrate. Right after we're finished celebrating we got to look at what are the implications, right? And that shows up as, are there security vulnerabilities that become ubiquitous because we're using similar dependencies? What is your process for vetting code that you bring into your organization and push into production? You know that process for the code you author, what about your dependencies? And I think that's an important part of understanding and certainly there are some license implications. What are you required to do when you use that code? You've been given that code on a license from the open source community, are you compliant with that license? Some of those are reasonably well understood. Some of those are, you know, newer to the enterprise. So I think we have to look at this holistically and really help enterprises build safe application code that goes into production and runs their business. >> We saw Intel up in the keynotes today. We heard from Nvidia, both companies are coming on. We know you've done a lot of work with ARM over the years. I think Graviton was one of the announcements this week. So, love to see that. I want to run something by you as a technologist. The premise is, you know, we used to live in this CPU centric world. We marched to the cadence of Moore's Law and now we're seeing the combinatorial factors of CPU, GPU, NPU, accelerators and other supporting components. With IO and controllers and NICs all adding up. It seems like we're shifting from a processor centric world to a connect centric world on the hardware side. That first of all, do you buy that premise? And does hardware matter anymore with all the cloud? >> Hardware totally matters. I mean the cloud tried to convince us that hardware doesn't matter and it actually failed. And the reason I say that is because if you go to a cloud, you'll find 100s of different instance types that are all reflections of different types of assemblies of hardware. Faster IO, better storage, certain sizes of memory. All of that is a reflection of, applications need certain types of environments for acceleration, for performance, to do their job. Now I do think there's an element of, we're decomposing compute into all of these different sort of accelerators and the only way to bring that back together is connectivity through the network. But there's also SOCs when you get to the edge where you can integrate the entire system onto a pretty small device. I think the important part here is, we're leveraging hardware to do interesting work on behalf of applications that makes hardware exciting. And as an operating system geek, I couldn't be more thrilled, because that's what we do. We enable hardware, we get down into the bits and bytes and poke registers and bring things to life. There's a lot happening in the hardware world and applications can't always follow it directly. They need that level of indirection through a software abstraction and that's really what we're bringing to life here. >> We've seen now hardware specific AI, you know, AI chips and AI SOCs emerge. How do you make decisions about what you're going to support or do you try to support all of them? >> Well, we definitely have a breadth view of support and we're also just driven by customer demand. Where our customers are interested we work closely with our partners. We understand what their roadmaps are. We plan together ahead of time and we know where they're making investments and we work with our customers. What are the best chips that support their business needs and we focus there first but it ends up being a pretty broad list of hardware that we support. >> I could pick your brain for an hour. We didn't even get into super cloud, Chris. But, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. It's great to have you. >> Absolutely, thanks for having me. >> All right. Thank you for watching. Keep it right there. Paul Gillin, Dave Vellante, theCUBE's live coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022 from Boston. We'll be right back. (mellow music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Seaport in Boston. This is day two of theCUBES's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022 different format this year for Red Hat Summit. You know we are used to the eight to 9,000 people big conferences, but this is definitely and a lot of developers this is definitely a smaller, more intimate, more abbreviated keynotes which I love that new style they've really catering to the virtual audience as well as the physical audience, a lot of good stuff going on last night in the Seaport, which a lot of fun Stephanie Chiras is here is the Senior Vice President of Partner Ecosystem Success at Red Hat. >> Yeah. >> On the move again, Stephanie love to see you. >> yeah. Thank you. It's great to be here with you and now in a little different bit of a role. >> Yeah, I'm happy that we're actually in Boston and we can meet face to face. >> Yes. >> We don't have to get in a plane, but you know we'll be on a lot of planes in the next few months. >> Yeah. >> But look, a new role for you in ecosystems. You are interviewing all the partners, which is very cool. So you get a big observation space as my friend Jeff Jonas would like to say. And so, but I'd like to observe the partner ecosystem in this new era is different. >> It's very different. >> I mean just press release is going back it's really deep engineering and really interesting flywheel approaches. How is the cloud and the hybrid cloud ecosystem and partner ecosystem different today? >> I think there's a couple of things, I think first of all cloud accelerating all the innovation, the whole cloud motion pulls in a cloud partner in addition to many of the other partners that you need to deploy a solution. So this makes almost every deployment a multi-partner deployment. So that creates the need not just for one on one partnerships between companies and vendors but really for a multi-partner experience. Right, how does an ISV work with a distributor work with a cloud vendor? How do you pull all of that together and I think at Red Hat, our view of being a platform company, we want to be able to span that and bring all of those folks together. So I see this transition going from a world of partnerships into a world of a networked ecosystem. And the real benefit is when you can pull together one ecosystem with another ecosystem, build that up and it really becomes an ecosystem of ecosystems. >> Well and I'm a fan, you're a multi tool star, so it may kind of makes you dangerous because you can talk tech in your technical roles. You've been a GM so you understand the business and that's really what it takes in the part of ecosystem. It can't be just technology and just engineering integration, it's got to be a business model associated with that. Talk about those two dimensions. >> And I think what we're seeing in the ecosystem is there are partners that you build with there are partners you service with, there are partners you sell with some do all three, some do two out of three. How do you work those relationships at the end of the day every partner in the ecosystem wants to bring their value to the customer. And their real goal is how do you merge those values together and I think as you know, right, I come from the technology and the product space. I love moving into this space where you look for those value and that synergy of value to bring better technology, a better procurement experience is often really important and simplicity of deployment to customers, but partners span everything we do. We develop with them, we build with them, we deploy with them, we service with them and all has to come together. >> So how do you make this simple for customers? I mean you're describing an increasingly complex environment. How do you simplify this? >> So a couple of things one, spot onto your point Paul, I think customer expectations now are more aggressive than they've ever been that the ecosystem has done pre-work before they show up. The customer doesn't want to be the one who's pulling together this from one vendor, this from another vendor and stitching it together themselves. So there's a number of things I think we've stepped in to try and do digital engagement for certification and deployment, the creation of operators on OpenShift is one way that technology from partners can be done and enabled more easily and quickly with Red Hat platforms. I think in addition, you've seen. >> Can you go a little deeper on that? >> Sure. >> Explain that a little bit more what does that mean? Yeah, First off, we have a digital experience where partners can come in, they can certify and test their applications to run it on Red Hat platforms themselves. So it's a bit of a come one, come all. We also have an engineering team and a developer team to work side by side with them to build those into solutions. We've done things again to supplement that with capabilities of what we call validated patterns things we've done in the market with customers, with partners, we pull together a validated pattern, we put it onto GitHub so anyone can get access to it. It becomes kind of a recipe for deployment that's available for partners to come in and augment on top of that or customers can come in and pull it up GitHub and build off of it. So I feel like there's different layers in the sort of build model that we work with partners and you want to be able to on-ramp any partner wherever they want to influence their value. It could be at the base certification level, it could be even with RHEL 9 was a good one, right. RHEL 9 was the first version of RHEL that we deployed based upon the CentOS Stream model. CentOS Stream is an upstream version of RHEL very tightly tied into the development model but it allowed partners to engage with that code prior to deployment everything from hardware partners to ISV partners, it becomes a much more open way for them to collaborate with us, so there's so much we can do. >> What's the pitch to partners. I mean I know hybrid cloud is fundamental to your value proposition. I mean most people want hybrid cloud even though the cloud guys might not admit it, right, but so what's the pitch, how do you approach partners there's got to be a common theme there pitch me. >> I think one of the things when it comes to the Red Hat ecosystem is the ecosystem itself has to bring value. Yes, we at Red Hat want to bring value, we want to come in and make it easy and simple for you to access our technology when want to make it easy and simple to engage side by side in front of a customer. But at the end of the day the value of the Red Hat ecosystem is not only Red Hat, it's our partnerships with others. It's our partnerships with the hyperscalers, it's our partnerships with ISVs, it's our work in open source communities. So it's not about Red Hat being this sort of epicenter of the ecosystem. The value comes from the collective ecosystem as it stands, and I think we've made a number of changes here at the beginning of the year in order to create a end to end team within Red Hat that does everything from the build to the sell with all the way from end to end. And I think that's bringing a new layer of simplicity for our engagement with their partners, and it's allowing us to stitch together and introduce partners to partners. >> But you are a dot connector in a sense. >> Absolutely. >> And you can't do it all, I mean nobody can. >> Yeah. But especially Red Hat your strategy is not to do it all by design, so where's the big white spaces where you feel as though your strengths need to be complimented by the partners? >> Oh, I think you caught it spot on. We don't think we can do it all, we're a platform company, we know the value of hybrid cloud is all about bringing a flexibility of an ecosystem together. I think the places where we're really doubling down on is simplicity. So the Ansible announcement that we did right with Ansible automation platform on Azure. With that announcement, it brings in certified collections of ecosystem partners on that deployment. We do the work with Azure in order to do that deployment of Ansible automation platform, and then it comes with a set of certified collections that have been done with other partners. And I think those are the pieces where we can really double down on bringing simplicity. Right, so if I look at areas of focus, that's a great space, and I think it is all about connecting the dots, right, it's about connecting our work with Azure with our work with other ISV partners to pull that together and show up to a customer with something that's fast time to value. >> With so many partners to manage, how do you make sure you're not playing favorites. I guess how do you treat all partners equally or do you even try? >> We absolutely try. I think any partnership is a relationship, right, so it is what Red Hat brings to the table, it's also what the partner brings to the table. Our goal is to understand what the value is the partner wants to deliver to the customer. We focus on that and bringing that to the forefront of what we deploy. We absolutely in a hybrid world it's about choice and flexibility. Certainly there are partners and we made some announcements of course, this week, right yesterday and today with some we're continued to deepen our partnerships with those folks who are doubling down with us where their strategy is very well aligned with us. But our goal is to bring a broad ecosystem that offers customers choice. That's what hybrid cloud's all about. >> I remember years ago, your colleague Bob Pitino, I went down and met him in his office and he schooled me, he was awesome and we did a white board on alternative processors. >> Yeah. >> You guys were doing combat duty in the power division at the time. But basically he helped me understand the trend that is absolutely come true which is alternative processors. It's not just about the CPU anymore, it's about all the CPU and GPU and NPU and accelerators and all these other connected parts. You guys obviously are in the middle of that, you've got relationships with ARM, NVIDIA, Intel, we saw on stage today. Explain the importance and the trends that you see of these alternative processors and accelerators and what that means for customers in terms of the applications that they're now going to be able to tap. >> Yeah, so you know I love this topic when it comes. So one of the spaces is edge, right, we talked about edge today. Edge to me is the epitome of kind of a white space and an opportunity where ecosystem is essential. Edge is pulling together unique hardware capabilities from an accelerator all the way out to new network capabilities and then to AI applications. I mean the number of ISVs building AI applications is just expanding. So it's really that top to bottom ecosystem story, and our work with the telco comes in, our work with the ARM partners, the NVIDIA of the world, the accelerators of the world comes in edge. And then you pull it up to the applications as well. And then to touch in, we're seeing edge be deployed a lot in industries and industry verticals, right. A lot of edge deployments are tailored for a retail market or for a financial services sector. Again, for us, we rely very much on the ecosystem to go into industry verticals where platform companies. So our goal is to find those key partners in those industry verticals who speak the speak, talk the language, and we partner with them in order to support them and so this whole edge space pulls all of that together I think even out to the go to market with industry alignment. >> It's interesting to partner, so we're talking about Silicon, we could talk about that all day long. >> Yes. >> And then it spans and that we had Accenture on we had Raj yesterday. And it was interesting 'cause you think Accenture's like deep vertical industry expertise which it is but Raj's role is really cross industry, and then to tap into that industry expertise you guys had an announcement yesterday with those guys and obviously the GSIs are a key player. >> Absolutely. >> We saw a bunch of 'em last night out and about. >> Yeah. >> So talk about the importance of those relationships. >> I think we are in the announcement with Accenture is a great one, right. We're really doubling down because customers are looking to them, they're looking to the Accentures of the world to help them move into this hybrid world. It's not simple, it's not simple to deploy and get that value of the flexibility. So Accenture has built a number of tools in order to help customers on that journey which we talked about yesterday it really is a continuum of how customers adopt for their cloud space. And so us partnering with them offers a platform underneath, give them technology capabilities and Accenture is able to help customers and guide them along that journey and add a new layer of simplicity. So I think the GSI are critical in this space. >> Yeah. >> You talked about the number of companies developing AI, new AI tools right now. And it seems like there's just the pace of innovation is amazing, the number of startups is unprecedented. How do you decide who makes it into your partner system? What bars do they have to jump over to become a Red Hat partner? >> I think our whole partner structure is layered out quite honestly a bit in tiering, depending upon how much the partner is moving forward with Red Hat, how strategically we aligned our et cetera. But there is definitely a tier that is a come one come all, get your technology to work with Red Hat. We do that digitally now in the world of digital it's much easier to do that to give accessibility but there is definitely a tier that is a come one come all and participate. And then above that, it comes into tierings. How deeply do we go to do joint building to do co-creation and how do we sort of partner even on things like we have ARO and ROSA as you know which is OpenShift built with AWS with Azure those provide very deep technical engagements to bring that level of simplicity, but I would say it spans all the layers, right. We do have a dedicated engineering team to work with the ecosystem partners. We have a dedicated digital team to reach out and proactively right, invite folks to participate and encourage them through the thing and through the whole path. And we've done some things on enablement, we just made early March, we made enablement free for all our partners in order to learn more and get more skilled in Red Hat. Skills and skill creation is just critical for partners, and we want to start there right. >> So we started this conversation with how cloud ecosystems are different. And I think AWS as the mother of all ecosystems, so does Microsoft too but they've had it for a while. And I got felt like last decade partners were kind of afraid, all right, we're going to partner with a cloud vendor, but they're going to eat our lunch. I noticed last year at Reinvent that whole dynamic is changing and I think the industry's realizing this is not a zero sum game. That there's just so much opportunity especially when you start thinking about the edge. So you guys use the term hybrid, right, and John and I wrote a piece prior to Reinvent last year, we said there's something new brewing, we've got on-prem connecting to the clouds, it's going across clouds. People call that multi-cloud, but multi-cloud has been like multi-vendor. It really hasn't been a sort of strategy or a technical layer. And now you're talking the edge and we see the hyperscaler spending a hundred billion dollars a year on infrastructure. And now we see companies like yours and your ecosystem building on top of that. They're not afraid of it anymore, they're actually looking at it as a gift and so we coined this term called Supercloud which is a abstraction layer, and it rises above highs all the complexity of the underlying primitives and APIs and people kind of wince at the term Ashesh called it Metacloud which I like it's kind of fun. But do you feel like that's happening in the ecosystem? Is that a real trend or is that just my imagination? >> I think it's definitely a real trend and it's coming from customers, right, that's what customers want. So customers want the ability to choose are they going to self-manage their applications within a public cloud. There's much more than just technology in the public cloud too right. There's a procurement experience that they provide a simplicity of our relationship. They may choose one of the hyperscalers. They pick a procurement experience, they deepen that relationship, they leverage the services. And I think now what you're seeing is customers are demanding it. They want to be a part of that, they want to run on multiple clouds. And now we're looking at cloud services you've seen our strategy double down on cloud services. I think that kind of comes back together to a customer wants simplicity. They expect the ecosystem to work together behind the scenes. That's what capabilities like ARO are or OpenShift on Azure and OpenShift on AWS. That's what we can provide. We have an SRV team, we jointly support it with those partners behind the scenes but as you said, it's no longer that fear, right. We've rolled up our sleeves together specifically because we wanted to show up to the customer as one. >> Yeah, and by the way, it's not just traditional technology vendors, it's insurance companies, it's banks, it's manufacturers who are building out these so-called super clouds. And to have a super cloud, you got to have a super PaaS and OpenShift is the supers of all PaaS So Stephanie cheers, thanks so much for coming back to theCUBE, >> Oh it's my pleasure. it great to see you again. >> Thank you for the time. >> All right, and thank you for watching keep it right there this is day two of Red Hat Summit 2022 from the Seaport in Boston. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Okay, we're back in theCUBE. We said we were signing off for the night, but during the hallway track, we ran into old friend Stu Miniman who was the Director of Market Insights at Red Hat. Stu, friend of theCUBE done the thousands of CUBE interviews. >> Dave, it's great to be here. Thanks for pulling me on, you and I hosted Red Hat Summit before. It's great to see Paul here. I was actually, I was talking to some of the Red Hatters walking around Boston. It's great to have an event here. Boston's got strong presence and I understand, I think was either first or second year, they had it over... What's the building they're tearing down right down the road here. Was that the World Trade Center? I think that's where they actually held it, the first time they were here. We hosted theCUBE >> So they moved up. >> at the Hines Convention Center. We did theCUBE for summit at the BCEC next door. And of course, with the pandemic being what it was, we're a little smaller, nice intimate event here. It's great to be able to room the hall, see a whole bunch of people and lots watching online. >> It's great, it's around the same size as those, remember those Vertica Big Data events that we used to have here. And I like that you were commenting out at the theater and the around this morning for the keynotes, that was good. And the keynotes being compressed, I think, is real value for the attendees, you know? 'Cause people come to these events, they want to see each other, you know? They want to... It's like the band getting back together. And so when you're stuck in the keynote room, it's like, "Oh, it's okay, it's time to go." >> I don't know that any of us used to sitting at home where I could just click to another tab or pause it or run for, do something for the family, or a quick bio break. It's the three-hour keynote I hope has been retired. >> But it's an interesting point though, that the virtual event really is driving the physical and this, the way Red Hat marketed this event was very much around the virtual attendee. Physical was almost an afterthought, so. >> Right, this is an invite only for in-person. So you're absolutely right. It's optimizing the things that are being streamed, the online audience is the big audience. And we just happy to be in here to clap and do some things see around what you're doing. >> Wonderful see that becoming the norm. >> I think like virtual Stu, you know this well when virtual first came in, nobody had a clue with what they were doing. It was really hard. They tried different things, they tried to take the physical and just jam it into the virtual. That didn't work, they tried doing fun things. They would bring in a famous person or a comedian. And that kind of worked, I guess, but everybody showed up for that and then left. And I think they're trying to figure it out what this hybrid thing is. I've seen it both ways. I've seen situations like this, where they're really sensitive to the virtual. I've seen others where that's the FOMO of the physical, people want physical. So, yeah, I think it depends. I mean, reinvent last year was heavy physical. >> Yeah, with 15,000 people there. >> Pretty long keynotes, you know? So maybe Amazon can get away with it, but I think most companies aren't going to be able to. So what is the market telling you? What are these insights? >> So Dave just talking about Amazon, obviously, the world I live in cloud and that discussion of cloud, the journey that customers are going on is where we're spending a lot of the discussions. So, it was great to hear in the keynote, talked about our deep partnerships with the cloud providers and what we're doing to help people with, you like to call it super cloud, some call it hybrid, or multi-cloud... >> New name. (crosstalk) Meta-Cloud, come on. >> All right, you know if Che's my executive, so it's wonderful. >> Love it. >> But we'll see, if I could put on my VR Goggles and that will help me move things. But I love like the partnership announcement with General Motors today because not every company has the needs of software driven electric vehicles all over the place. But the technology that we build for them actually has ramifications everywhere. We've working to take Kubernetes and make it smaller over time. So things that we do at the edge benefit the cloud, benefit what we do in the data center, it's that advancement of science and technology just lifts all boats. >> So what's your take on all this? The EV and software on wheels. I mean, Tesla obviously has a huge lead. It's kind of like the Amazon of vehicles, right? It's sort of inspired a whole new wave of innovation. Now you've got every automobile manufacturer kind of go and after. That is the future of vehicles is something you followed or something you have an opinion on Stu? >> Absolutely. It's driving innovation in some ways, the way the DOS drove innovation on the desktop, if you remember the 64K DOS limit, for years, that was... The software developers came up with some amazing ways to work within that 64K limit. Then when it was gone, we got bloatware, but it actually does enforce a level of discipline on you to try to figure out how to make software run better, run more efficiently. And that has upstream impacts on the enterprise products. >> Well, right. So following your analogy, you talk about the enablement to the desktop, Linux was a huge influence on allowing the individual person to write code and write software, and what's happening in the EV, it's software platform. All of these innovations that we're seeing across industries, it's how is software transforming things. We go back to the mark end reasons, software's eating the world, open source is the way that software is developed. Who's at the intersection of all those? We think we have a nice part to play in that. I loved tha- Dave, I don't know if you caught at the end of the keynote, Matt Hicks basically said, "Our mission isn't just to write enterprise software. "Our mission is based off of open source because open source unlocks innovation for the world." And that's one of the things that drew me to Red Hat, it's not just tech in good places, but allowing underrepresented, different countries to participate in what's happening with software. And we can all move that ball forward. >> Well, can we declare victory for open source because it's not just open source products, but everything that's developed today, whether proprietary or open has open source in it. >> Paul, I agree. Open source is the development model period, today. Are there some places that there's proprietary? Absolutely. But I had a discussion with Deepak Singh who's been on theCUBE many times. He said like, our default is, we start with open source code. I mean, even Amazon when you start talking about that. >> I said this, the $70 billion business on open source. >> Exactly. >> Necessarily give it back, but that say, Hey, this is... All's fair in tech and more. >> It is interesting how the managed service model has sort of rescued open source, open source companies, that were trying to do the Red Hat model. No one's ever really successfully duplicated the Red Hat model. A lot of companies were floundering and failing. And then the managed service option came along. And so now they're all cloud service providers. >> So the only thing I'd say is that there are some other peers we have in the industry that are built off open source they're doing okay. The recent example, GitLab and Hashicorp, both went public. Hashi is doing some managed services, but it's not the majority of their product. Look at a company like Mongo, they've heavily pivoted toward the managed service. It is where we see the largest growth in our area. The products that we have again with Amazon, with Microsoft, huge growth, lots of interest. It's one of the things I spend most of my time talking on. >> I think Databricks is another interesting example 'cause Cloudera was the now company and they had the sort of open core, and then they had the proprietary piece, and they've obviously didn't work. Databricks when they developed Spark out of Berkeley, everybody thought they were going to do kind of a similar model. Instead, they went for all in managed services. And it's really worked well, I think they were ahead of that curve and you're seeing it now is it's what customers want. >> Well, I mean, Dave, you cover the database market pretty heavily. How many different open source database options are there today? And that's one of the things we're solving. When you look at what is Red Hat doing in the cloud? Okay, I've got lots of databases. Well, we have something called, it's Red Hat Open Database Access, which is from a developer, I don't want to have to think about, I've got six different databases, which one, where's the repository? How does all that happen? We give that consistency, it's tied into OpenShift, so it can help abstract some of those pieces. we've got same Kafka streaming and we've got APIs. So it's frameworks and enablers to help bridge that gap between the complexity that's out there, in the cloud and for the developer tool chain. >> That's really important role you guys play though because you had this proliferation, you mentioned Mongo. So many others, Presto and Starbursts, et cetera, so many other open source options out there now. And companies, developers want to work with multiple databases within the same application. And you have a role in making that easy. >> Yeah, so and that is, if you talk about the question I get all the time is, what's next for Kubernetes? Dave, you and I did a preview for KubeCon and it's automation and simplicity that we need to be. It's not enough to just say, "Hey, we've got APIs." It's like Dave, we used to say, "We've got standards? Great." Everybody's implementation was a little bit different. So we have API Sprawl today. So it's building that ecosystem. You've been talking to a number of our partners. We are very active in the community and trying to do things that can lift up the community, help the developers, help that cloud native ecosystem, help our customers move faster. >> Yeah API's better than scripts, but they got to be managed, right? So, and that's really what you guys are doing that's different. You're not trying to own everything, right? It's sort of antithetical to how billions and trillions are made in the IT industry. >> I remember a few years ago we talked here, and you look at the size that Red Hat is. And the question is, could Red Hat have monetized more if the model was a little different? It's like, well maybe, but that's not the why. I love that they actually had Simon Sinek come in and work with Red Hat and that open, unlocks the world. Like that's the core, it's the why. When I join, they're like, here's a book of Red Hat, you can get it online and that why of what we do, so we never have to think of how do we get there. We did an acquisition in the security space a year ago, StackRox, took us a year, it's open source. Stackrox.io, it's community driven, open source project there because we could have said, "Oh, well, yeah, it's kind of open source and there's pieces that are open source, but we want it to be fully open source." You just talked to Gunnar about how he's RHEL nine, based off CentOS stream, and now developing out in the open with that model, so. >> Well, you were always a big fan of Whitehurst culture book, right? It makes a difference. >> The open organization and right, Red Hat? That culture is special. It's definitely interesting. So first of all, most companies are built with the hierarchy in mind. Had a friend of mine that when he joined Red Hat, he's like, I don't understand, it's almost like you have like lots of individual contractors, all doing their things 'cause Red Hat works on thousands of projects. But I remember talking to Rackspace years ago when OpenStack was a thing and they're like, "How do you figure out what to work on?" "Oh, well we hired great people and they work on what's important to them." And I'm like, "That doesn't sound like a business." And he is like, "Well, we struggle sometimes to that balance." Red Hat has found that balance because we work on a lot of different projects and there are people inside Red Hat that are, you know, they care more about the project than they do the business, but there's the overall view as to where we participate and where we productize because we're not creating IP because it's all an open source. So it's the monetizations, the relationships we have our customers, the ecosystems that we build. And so that is special. And I'll tell you that my line has been Red Hat on the inside is even more Red Hat. The debates and the discussions are brutal. I mean, technical people tearing things apart, questioning things and you can't be thin skinned. And the other thing is, what's great is new people. I've talked to so many people that started at Red Hat as interns and will stay for seven, eight years. And they come there and they have as much of a seat at the table, and when I talk to new people, your job, is if you don't understand something or you think we might be able to do it differently, you better speak up because we want your opinion and we'll take that, everybody takes that into consideration. It's not like, does the decision go all the way up to this executive? And it's like, no, it's done more at the team. >> The cultural contrast between that and your parent, IBM, couldn't be more dramatic. And we talked earlier with Paul Cormier about has IBM really walked the walk when it comes to leaving Red Hat alone. Naturally he said, "Yes." Well what's your perspective. >> Yeah, are there some big blue people across the street or something I heard that did this event, but look, do we interact with IBM? Of course. One of the reasons that IBM and IBM Services, both products and services should be able to help get us breadth in the marketplace. There are times that we go arm and arm into customer meetings and there are times that customers tell us, "I like Red Hat, I don't like IBM." And there's other ones that have been like, "Well, I'm a long time IBM, I'm not sure about Red Hat." And we have to be able to meet all of those customers where they are. But from my standpoint, I've got a Red Hat badge, I've got a Red Hat email, I've got Red Hat benefits. So we are fiercely independent. And you know, Paul, we've done blogs and there's lots of articles been written is, Red Hat will stay Red Hat. I didn't happen to catch Arvin I know was on CNBC today and talking at their event, but I'm sure Red Hat got mentioned, but... >> Well, he talks about Red Hat all time. >> But in his call he's talking backwards. >> It's interesting that he's not here, greeting this audience, right? It's again, almost by design, right? >> But maybe that's supposed to be... >> Hundreds of yards away. >> And one of the questions being in the cloud group is I'm not out pitching IBM Cloud, you know? If a customer comes to me and asks about, we have a deep partnership and IBM will be happy to tell you about our integrations, as opposed to, I'm happy to go into a deep discussion of what we're doing with Google, Amazon, and Microsoft. So that's how we do it. It's very different Dave, from you and I watch really closely the VMware-EMC, VMware-Dell, and how that relationship. This one is different. We are owned by IBM, but we mostly, it does IBM fund initiatives and have certain strategic things that are done, absolutely. But we maintain Red Hat. >> But there are similarities. I mean, VMware crowd didn't want to talk about EMC, but they had to, they were kind of forced to. Whereas, you're not being forced to. >> And then once Dell came in there, it was joint product development. >> I always thought a spin in. Would've been the more effective, of course, Michael Dell and Egon wouldn't have gotten their $40 billion out. But I think a spin in was more natural based on where they were going. And it would've been, I think, a more dominant position in the marketplace. They would've had more software, but again, financially it wouldn't have made as much sense, but that whole dynamic is different. I mean, but people said they were going to look at VMware as a model and it's been largely different because remember, VMware of course was a separate company, now is a fully separate company. Red Hat was integrated, we thought, okay, are they going to get blue washed? We're watching and watching, and watching, you had said, well, if the Red Hat culture isn't permeating IBM, then it's a failure. And I don't know if that's happening, but it's definitely... >> I think a long time for that. >> It's definitely been preserved. >> I mean, Dave, I know I read one article at the beginning of the year is, can Arvin make IBM, Microsoft Junior? Follow the same turnaround that Satya Nadella drove over there. IBM I think making some progress, I mean, I read and watch what you and the team are all writing about it. And I'll withhold judgment on IBM. Obviously, there's certain financial things that we'd love to see IBM succeed. We worry about our business. We do our thing and IBM shares our results and they've been solid, so. >> Microsoft had such massive cash flow that even bomber couldn't screw it up. Well, I mean, this is true, right? I mean, you think about how were relevant Microsoft was in the conversation during his tenure and yet they never got really... They maintained a position so that when the Nadella came in, they were able to reascend and now are becoming that dominant player. I mean, IBM just doesn't have that cash flow and that luxury, but I mean, if he pulls it off, he'll be the CEO of the decade. >> You mentioned partners earlier, big concern when the acquisition was first announced, was that the Dells and the HP's and the such wouldn't want to work with Red Hat anymore, you've sort of been here through that transition. Is that an issue? >> Not that I've seen, no. I mean, the hardware suppliers, the ISVs, the GSIs are all very important. It was great to see, I think you had Accenture on theCUBE today, obviously very important partner as we go to the cloud. IBM's another important partner, not only for IBM Cloud, but IBM Services, deep partnership with Azure and AWS. So those partners and from a technology standpoint, the cloud native ecosystem, we talked about, it's not just a Red Hat product. I constantly have to talk about, look, we have a lot of pieces, but your developers are going to have other tools that they're going to use and the security space. There is no such thing as a silver bullet. So I've been having some great conversations here already this week with some of our partners that are helping us to round out that whole solution, help our customers because it has to be, it's an ecosystem. And we're one of the drivers to help that move forward. >> Well, I mean, we were at Dell Tech World last week, and there's a lot of talk about DevSecOps and DevOps and Dell being more developer friendly. Obviously they got a long way to go, but you can't have that take that posture and not have a relationship with Red Hat. If all you got is Pivotal and VMware, and Tansu >> I was thrilled to hear the OpenShift mention in the keynote when they talked about what they were doing. >> How could you not, how could you have any credibility if you're just like, Oh, Pivotal, Pivotal, Pivotal, Tansu, Tansu. Tansu is doing its thing. And they smart strategy. >> VMware is also a partner of ours, but that we would hope that with VMware being independent, that does open the door for us to do more with them. >> Yeah, because you guys have had a weird relationship with them, under ownership of EMC and then Dell, right? And then the whole IBM thing. But it's just a different world now. Ecosystems are forming and reforming, and Dell's building out its own cloud and it's got to have... Look at Amazon, I wrote about this. I said, "Can you envision the day where Dell actually offers competitive products in its suite, in its service offering?" I mean, it's hard to see, they're not there yet. They're not even close. And they have this high say/do ratio, or really it's a low say/do, they say high say/do, but look at what they did with Nutanix. You look over- (chuckles) would tell if it's the Cisco relationship. So it's got to get better at that. And it will, I really do believe. That's new thinking and same thing with HPE. And, I don't know about Lenovo that not as much of an ecosystem play, but certainly Dell and HPE. >> Absolutely. Michael Dell would always love to poke at HPE and HP really went very far down the path of their own products. They went away from their services organization that used to be more like IBM, that would offer lots of different offerings and very much, it was HP Invent. Well, if we didn't invent it, you're not getting it from us. So Dell, we'll see, as you said, the ecosystems are definitely forming, converging and going in lots of different directions. >> But your position is, Hey, we're here, we're here to help. >> Yeah, we're here. We have customers, one of the best proof points I have is the solution that we have with Amazon. Amazon doesn't do the engineering work to make us a native offering if they didn't have the customer demand because Amazon's driven off of data. So they came to us, they worked with us. It's a lot of work to be able to make that happen, but you want to make it frictionless for customers so that they can adopt that. That's a long path. >> All right, so evening event, there's a customer event this evening upstairs in the lobby. Microsoft is having a little shin dig, and then serves a lot of customer dinners going on. So Stu, we'll see you out there tonight. >> All right, thanks you. >> Were watching a brewing somewhere. >> Keynotes tomorrow, a lot of good sessions and enablement, and yeah, it's great to be in person to be able to bump some people, meet some people and, Hey, I'm still a year and a half in still meeting a lot of my peers in person for the first time. >> Yeah, and that's kind of weird, isn't it? Imagine. And then we kick off tomorrow at 10:00 AM. Actually, Stephanie Chiras is coming on. There she is in the background. She's always a great guest and maybe do a little kickoff and have some fun tomorrow. So this is Dave Vellante for Stu Miniman, Paul Gillin, who's my co-host. You're watching theCUBEs coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. We'll see you tomorrow. (bright music)

[Music] thecube's coverage of red hat summit 2022 thecube has been covering red hat summit for a number of years of course the last two years were virtual coverage now the red hat summit is one of the industry's most premier events and and typically red hat summits are many thousands of people i think the last one i went to was eight or nine thousand people very heavy developer conference this year red hat has taken a different approach it's a hybrid event it's kind of a vip event at the westin in boston with a lot more executives here than we would normally expect versus developers but a huge virtual audience my name is dave vellante i'm here with my co-host paul gillin paul this is a location that you and i have broadcast from many times and um of course 2019 the summer of 2019 ibm acquired red hat and um we of course we did red hat summit that year but now we're seeing a completely new red hat and a new ibm and you wouldn't know ibm owned red hat for what they've been talking about at this conference we just came out of the keynote where uh in the in the hour-long keynote ibm was not mentioned once and only appeared the logo only appeared once on the screen in fact so this is uh very much red hat being red hat not being a subsidiary at ibm and perhaps that's justified given that ibm's track record with acquisitions is that they gradually envelop the acquired company and and it becomes part of the ibm board yeah they blue wash the whole thing right it's ironic because ibm think is going on right across the street arvin krishna is here but no presence here and i think that's by design i mean it reminds me of when you know emc owned vmware you know the vmware team didn't want to publicize that they had an ecosystem of partners that they wanted to cater to and they wanted to treat everybody equally even though perhaps behind the scenes they were forced to do certain things that they might not have necessarily wanted to because they were owned by another company and i think that you know certainly ibm's done a good job of leaving the brand separate but when they talk about the con the conference calls ibm's earnings calls you certainly get a heavy dose of red hat when red hat was acquired by ibm it was just north of three billion dollars in revenue obviously ibm paid 34 billion dollars for the company actually by today's valuations probably a bargain you know despite the market sell-off in the last several months uh but now we've heard public statements from arvind kushner that that red hat is a 5 billion plus revenue company it's a little unclear what's in there of course when you listen to ibm earnings you know consulting is their big business red hat's growing at 21 but when i remember paul when red hat was acquired stu miniman and i did a session and i said this is not about cloud this is about consulting and modernizing applications and sure there's some cloud in there with openshift but from a financial standpoint ibm was able to take red hat and jam it right into its application modernization initiatives so it's hard to tell how much of that 5 billion is actually you know legacy red hat but i guess it doesn't matter anymore it's working ibm mathematics is notoriously opaque they if the business isn't going well it'll tend to be absorbed into another number in the in the earnings report that that does show some growth so we've heard uh certainly ibm talks a lot about red hat on its earnings calls it's very clear that red hat is the growth engine within ibm i'd say it's a bit of the tail wagging the dog right now where red hat really is dictating where ibm goes with its hypercloud strategy which is the foundation not only of its technology portfolio but of its consulting business and so red hat is really in the driver's seat of of hybrid cloud and that's the future for ibm and you see that very much at this conference where uh red hat is putting out its uh series of announcements today about improvements to his hybrid cloud the new release of route 9 red hat enterprise linux 9 improvements to its hybrid cloud portfolio it very much is going its own way with that and i sense that ibm is going to go along with wherever red hat chooses to go yeah i think you're absolutely right if by the way if you go to siliconangle.com paul just published a piece on red hat reds hats their roll out of their parade which of course is as you pointed out led by enterprise linux but to your point about hybrid cloud it is the linchpin of of certainly ibm strategy but many companies hybrid cloud strategies if you think about it openshift in particular it's it's the modern application development environment for kubernetes you can get kubernetes you can buy eks you can get that for free in a lot of places but you have to do dozens and dozens of things and acquire dozens of services to do what openshift does to get the reliability the recoverability the security and that's really red hat's play and they're the the thing about red hat combining with linux their linux heritage they're doing that everywhere it's going to open shift everywhere red hat everywhere whether it's on-prem in aws azure google out to the edge you heard paul cormier today saying he expects that in the next several years hardware is going to become one of the most important you know factors i agree i think we're going to enter a hardware renaissance you've seen the work that we've done on arm i think 2017 was when red hat and arm announced kind of their initial collaboration could have even been before that today we're hearing a lot about intel and nvidia and so affinity with all of these alternative processes i think they did throw in today in the keynote power and so i think i heard that that was the other ibm branding they sort of tucked that in there but the point is red hat runs everywhere so it's fundamental to building out hybrid cloud and that is fundamental to a lot of company strategies and red hat has been all over kubernetes with openshift it's i mean it's a drum beat here uh the openshift strategy is what really makes hybrid cloud possible because kubernetes is what makes it possible to shift workloads seamlessly from platform to platform you make an interesting point about hardware we have seen kind of a renaissance in hardware these last couple of years as these specific chipsets and uh and even full-scale processors have come to market we're seeing several in the ai area right now where startups are developing full-blown chipsets and and systems uh just for ai processing and nvidia of course that's that's really kind of their stock and trade these days so uh a a company that can run across all of those different platforms a platform like like rel which can run all across those different platforms is going to have a leg up on on anybody else and the implications for application development are considerable when you when you think about we talk about a lot about these alternative processes when flash replaced the spinning disk that had a huge impact on how applications are developed developers now didn't have to wait for that that disc to spin even though it's spinning very fast it's mechanical compared to electrons forget it and and the second big piece here is how memory is actually utilized the x86 you know traditional x86 you know memory everything goes through that core processor intel for years grabbed more and more function and you're seeing now that function become dispersed in fact a lot of people think we're moving from a processor-centric world to a connect centric world meaning connecting all these piece parts alternative processors memory controllers you know storage controllers io network interface cards smartnics and things like that where the communication across those resources is now where a lot of the innovation is going you see you're seeing a lot of that and now of course applications can take advantage of that especially now at the edge which is just a whole new frontier the edge certainly is part of that equation when you look at machine learning at training machine learning models the cpu actually does relatively little work most of it is happening in gpus in these parallel processes that are going on and the cpu is kind of acting as a traffic cop and you see that in the edge as well it's the same model at the edge where more of the intelligence is going to be out in discrete devices spread across the network and the cpu is going to be less of a uh you know less of a engine of intelligence at the same time though we've got cpus with we've got 100 core cpus are on the horizon and there are even 200 and 300 core cpus that we may see in the next uh in the next couple of years so cpus aren't standing still they are evolving to become really kind of super traffic cops for all of these other processors out in the network and on the edge so it's a very exciting time to be in hardware because so much innovation is happening really at the microprocessor level well we saw this you and i lived through the pc era and we saw a whole raft of applications come about as a result of the microprocessor the shift of the microprocessor-based economy we're going to see so we are seeing something similar with mobile and the edge you know just think about some of the numbers if you think about the traditional moore's law doubling a number of transistors every let's call it two years 18 to 24 months pat gelsinger at intel promises that intel is on that pace still but if you look at the apple m1 ultra they increased the transistor density 6x in the last 15 months okay so where is this another data point is the historical moore's law curve is 40 that's moderating to somewhere down you know down in the low 30s if you look at the apple a series i mean that thing is on average increasing performance at 110 a year when you add up into the combinatorial factors of the cpu the neural processing unit the gpu all the accelerators so we are seeing a new era the thing i i i wanted to bring up paul is you mentioned ai much of the ai work that's done today is modeling that's done in the cloud and when we talk about edge we think that the future of ai is ai inferencing in real time at the edge so you may not even be persisting that data but you're going to create a lot of data you're going to be operating on that data in streams and it's going to require a whole new new architectural thinking of hardware very low cost very low power very high performance to drive all that intelligence at the edge and a lot of that data is going to stay at the edge and and that's we're going to talk about some of that today with some of the ev innovations and the vehicle innovations and the intelligence in these vehicles yeah and in talking in its edge strategy which it outlined today and the announcements that are made today red hat very much uh playing to the importance of being able to run red hat enterprise linux at the edge the idea is you do these big machine learning models centrally and then you you take the you take what results from that and you move it out to smaller processors it's the only way we can cope with it with the explosion of data that will be uh that these sensors and other devices will be generating so some of the themes we're hearing in the uh announcements today that you wrote about paul obviously rel9 is huge uh red hat enterprise linux version nine uh new capabilities a lot of edge a lot of security uh new cross portfolio capabilities for the edge security in the software supply chain that's a big conversation especially post solar winds managed ansible when you think about red hat you really i think anyway about three things rel which is such as linux it powers the internet powers everything uh you think of openshift which is application development you think about ansible which is automation so itops so that's one of the announcements ansible on azure and then a lot of hybrid cloud talk and you're gonna hear a lot of talk this week about red hat's cloud services portfolio packaging red hat as services as managed services that's you know a much more popular delivery mechanism with clients because they're trying to make it easy and this is complicated stuff and it gets more complicated the more features they add and the more the more components of the red hat portfolio are are available it's it's gonna be complex to build these hybrid clouds so like many of these so thecube started doing physical events last summer by the way and so this is this is new to a lot of people uh they're here for the first time people are really excited we've definitely noticed a trend people are excited to be back together paul cormier talked about that he talked about the new normal you can define the new normal any way you want so paul cormier gave the uh the the intro keynote bidani interviewed amex stephanie cheris interviewed accenture both those firms are coming out stephanie's coming on with the in accenture as well matt hicks talked about product innovation i loved his reference to ada lovelace that was very cool he talked about uh serena uh ramyanajan a famous mathematician who nobody knew about when he was just a kid these were ignored individuals in the 1800s for years and years and years in the case of ada lovelace for a century even he asked the question what if we had discovered them earlier and acted on them and been able to iterate on them earlier and his point tied that to open source very brilliantly i thought and um keynotes which i appreciate are much shorter much shorter intimate they did a keynote in the round this time uh which i haven't seen before there's maybe a thousand people in there so a much smaller group much more intimate setting not a lot of back and forth but uh but there is there is a feeling of a more personal feel to this event than i've seen it past red hat summits yeah and i think that's a trend that we're going to see more of where the live audience is kind of the on the ground it's going to the vip audience but still catering to the virtual audience you don't want to lose them so that's why the keynotes are a lot tighter okay paul thank you for setting up red hat summit 2022 you're watching the cube's coverage we'll be right back wall-to-wall coverage for two days right after this short break [Music] you

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Boston, Massachusetts. We're here at the Seaport. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. My name is Dave Vellante and Paul Gillin is here. He's my cohost for the next day. We are going to dig in to the famous RHEL, Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Gunnar Hellekson is here, he's the Vice President and General Manager of Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Gunnar, welcome to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Thanks for having me. Nice to be here, Dave, Paul. >> RHEL 9 is, wow, nine, Holy cow. It's been a lot of iterations. >> It's the highest version of RHEL we've ever shipped. >> And now we're talking edge. >> Yeah, that's right. >> And so, what's inside, tell us. to keep happy with a new RHEL release. to keep happy with a new RHEL release. The first is the hardware partners, right, because they rely on RHEL to light up all their delicious hardware that they're making, then you got application developers and the ISVs who rely on RHEL to be that kind of stable platform for innovation, and then you've got the operators, the people who are actually using the operating system itself and trying to keep it running every day. So we've got on the, I'll start with the hardware side, So we've got on the, I'll start with the hardware side, which is something, as you know, RHEL success, and I think you talked about this with Matt, just in a few sessions earlier that the success of RHEL is really, hinges on our partnerships with the hardware partners and in this case, we've got, let's see, in RHEL 9 we've got all the usual hardware suspects and we've added, just recently in January, we added support for ARM servers, as general ARM server class hardware. And so that's something customers have been asking for, delighted to be shipping that in RHEL 9. So now ARM is kind of a first-class citizen, right? Alongside x86, PowerZ and all the other usual suspects. And then of course, working with our favorite public cloud providers. So making sure that RHEL 9 is available at AWS and Azure and GCP and all our other cloud friends, right? >> Yeah, you mentioned ARM, we're seeing ARM in the enterprise. We're obviously seeing ARM at the edge. You guys have been working with ARM for a long time. You're working with Intel, you're working with NVIDIA, you've got some announcements this week. Gunnar, how do you keep Linux from becoming Franken OS with all these capabilities? >> This is a great question. First is, the most important thing is to be working closely with, I mean, the whole point of Linux and the reason why Linux works is because you have all these people working together to make the same thing, right? And so fighting that is a bad idea. Working together with everyone, leaning into that collaboration, that's an important part of making it work over time. The other one is having, just like in any good relationship, having healthy boundaries. And so making sure that we're clear about the things that we need to keep stable and the places where we're allowed to innovate and striking the right balance between those two things, that allows us to continue to ship one coherent operating system while still keeping literally thousands of platforms happy. >> So you're not trying to suck in all the full function, you're trying to accommodate that function that the ecosystem is going to develop? >> Yeah, that's right. So the idea is that what we strive for is consistency across all of the infrastructures and then allowing for kind of optimizations and we still let ourselves take advantage of whatever indigenous feature might appear on, such an ARM chip or thus in a such cloud platform. But really, we're trying to deliver a uniform platform experience to the application developers, right? Because they can't be having, like there can't be kind of one version of RHEL over here and another version of RHEL over here, the ecosystem wouldn't work. The whole point of Linux and the whole point of Red Hat Enterprise Linux is to be the same so that everything else can be different. >> And what incentives do you use to keep customers current? >> To keep customers current? Well so the best thing to do I found is to meet customers where they are. So a lot of people think we release RHEL 9 at the same time we have Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8, we have Red Hat Enterprise Linux 7, all these are running at the same time, and then we also have multiple minor release streams inside those. So at any given time, we're running, let's say, a dozen different versions of RHEL are being maintained and kept up-to-date, and we do this precisely to make sure that we're not force marching people into the new version and they have a Red Hat Enterprise Linux subscription, they should just be able to sit there and enjoy the minor version that they like. And we try and keep that going for as long as possible. >> Even if it's 10 years out of date? >> So, 10 years, interesting you chose that number because that's the end of life. >> That's the end of the life cycle. >> Right. And so 10 years is about, that's the natural life of a given major release, but again inside that you have several 10-year life cycles kind of cascading on each other, right? So nine is the start of the next 10-year cycle while we're still living inside the 10-year cycle of seven and eight. So lots of options for customers. >> How are you thinking about the edge? how do you define, let's not go to the definition, but at high level. (Gunnar laughing) Like I've been in a conference last week. It was Dell Tech World, I'll just say it. They were sort of the edge to them was the retail store. >> Yeah. >> Lowe's, okay, cool, I guess that's edgy, I guess, But I think space is the edge. (Gunnar chuckling) >> Right, right, right. >> Or a vehicle. How do you think about the edge? All the above or but the exciting stuff to me is that far edge, but I wonder if you can comment. >> Yeah, so there's all kinds of taxonomies out there for the edge. For me, I'm a simple country product manager at heart and so, I try to keep it simple, right? And the way I think about the edge is, here's a use case in which somebody needs a small operating system that deploys on probably a small piece of hardware, usually varying sizes, but it could be pretty small. That thing needs to be updated without any human touching it, right? And it needs to be reliably maintained without any human touching it. Usually in the edge cases, actually touching the hardware is a very expensive proposition. So we're trying to be as hands off as possible. >> No truck rolls. >> No truck rolls ever, right, exactly. (Dave chuckling) And then, now that I've got that stable base, I'm going to go take an application. I'll probably put it in a container for simplicity's sake and same thing, I want to be able to deploy that application. If something goes wrong, I need to build a roll back to a known good state and then I need to set of management tools that allow me to touch things, make sure that everything is healthy, make sure that the updates roll out correctly, maybe do some AB testing, things like that. So I think about that as, that's the, when we talk about the edge case for RHEL, that's the horizontal use case and then we can do specializations inside particular verticals or particular industries, but at bottom that's the use case we're talking about when we talk about the edge. >> And an assumption of connectivity at some point? >> Yeah. >> Right, you didn't have to always be on. >> Intermittent, latent, eventual connectivity. >> Eventual connectivity. (chuckles) That's right in some tech terms. >> Red Hat was originally a one trick pony. I mean, RHEL was it and now you've got all of these other extensions and different markets that you expanded into. What's your role in coordinating what all those different functions are doing? >> Yes, you look at all the innovations we've made, whether it's in storage, whether it's in OpenShift and elsewhere, RHEL remains the beating heart, right? It's the place where everything starts. And so a lot of what my team does is, yes, we're trying to make all the partners happy, we're also trying to make our internal partners happy, right? So the OpenShift folks need stuff out of RHEL, just like any other software vendor. And so I really think about RHEL is yes, we're a platform, yes, we're a product in our own right, but we're also a service organization for all the other parts of the portfolio. And the reason for that is we need to make sure all this stuff works together, right? Part of the whole reasoning behind the Red Hat Portfolio at large is that each of these pieces build on each other and compliment each other, right? I think that's an important part of the Red Hat mission, the RHEL mission. >> There's an article in the journal yesterday about how the tech industry was sort of pounding the drum on H-1B visas, there's a limit. I think it's been the same limit since 2005, 65,000 a year. We are facing, customers are facing, you guys, I'm sure as well, we are, real skills shortage, there's a lack of talent. How are you seeing companies deal with that? What are you advising them? What are you guys doing yourselves? >> Yeah, it's interesting, especially as everybody went through some flavor of digital transformation during the pandemic and now everybody's going through some, and kind of connected to that, everybody's making a move to the public cloud. They're making operating system choices when they're making those platform choices, right? And I think what's interesting is that, what they're coming to is, "Well, I have a Linux skills shortage and for a thousand reasons the market has not provided enough Linux admins." I mean, these are very lucrative positions, right? With command a lot of money, you would expect their supply would eventually catch up, but for whatever reason, it's not catching up. So I can't solve this by throwing bodies at it so I need to figure out a more efficient way of running my Linux operation. People are making a couple choices. The first is they're ensuring that they have consistency in their operating system choices, whether it's on premise or in the cloud, or even out on the edge, if I have to juggle three, four different operating systems, as I'm going through these three or four different infrastructures, that doesn't make any sense, 'cause the one thing is most precious to me is my Linux talent, right? And so I need to make sure that they're consistent, optimized and efficient. The other thing they're doing is tooling and automation and especially through tools like Ansible, right? Being able to take advantage of as much automation as possible and much consistency as possible so that they can make the most of the Linux talent that they do have. And so with Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9, in particular, you see us make a big investment in things like more automation tools for things like SAP and SQL server deployments, you'll see us make investments in things like basic stuff like the web console, right? We should now be able to go and point and click and go basic Linux administration tasks that lowers the barrier to entry and makes it easier to find people to actually administer the systems that you have. >> As you move out onto these new platforms, particularly on the edge, many of them will be much smaller, limited function. How do you make the decisions about what features you're going to keep or what you're going to keep in RHEL when you're running on a thermostat? >> Okay, so let me be clear, I don't want RHEL to run on a thermostat. (everybody laughing) >> I gave you advantage over it. >> I can't handle the margins on something like that, but at the end. >> You're running on, you're running on the GM. >> Yeah, no that's, right? And so the, so the choice at the, the most important thing we can do is give customers the tools that they need to make the choice that's appropriate for their deployment. I have learned over several years in this business that if I start choosing what content a customer decide wants on their operating system I will always guess it wrong, right? So my job is to make sure that I have a library of reliable, secure software options for them, that they can use as ingredients into their solution. And I give them tools that allow them to kind of curate the operating system that they need. So that's the tool like Image Builder, which we just announced, the image builder service lets a customer go in and point and click and kind of compose the edge operating system they need, hit a button and now they have an atomic image that they can go deploy out on the edge reliably, right? >> Gunnar can you clarify the cadence of releases? >> Oh yeah. >> You guys, the change that you made there. >> Yeah. >> Why that change occurred and what what's the standard today? >> Yeah, so back when we released RHEl 8, so we were just talking about hardware and you know, it's ARM and X86, all these different kinds of hardware, the hardware market is internally. I tell everybody the hardware market just got real weird, right? It's just got, the schedules are crazy. We got so many more entrance. Everything is kind of out of sync from where it used to be, it used to be there was a metronome, right? You mentioned Moore's law earlier. It was like a 18 month metronome. Everybody could kind of set their watch to. >> Right. >> So that's gone, and so now we have so much hardware that we need to reconcile. The only way for us to provide the kind of stability and consistency that customers were looking for was to set a set our own clock. So we said three years for every major release, six months for every minor release and that we will ship a new minor release every six months and a new major release every three years, whether we need it or not. And that has value all by itself. It means that customers can now plan ahead of time and know, okay, in 36 months, the next major release is going to come on. And now that's something I can plan my workload around, that something I can plan a data center migration around, things like that. So the consistency of this and it was a terrifying promise to make three years ago. I am now delighted to announce that we actually made good on it three years later, right? And plan two again, three years from now. >> Is it follow up, is it primarily the processor, optionality and diversity, or as I was talking to an architect, system architect the other day in his premise was that we're moving from a processor centric world to a connect centric world, not just the processor, but the memories, the IO, the controllers, the nics and it's just keeping that system in balance. Does that affect you or is it primarily the processor? >> Oh, it absolutely affects us, yeah. >> How so? >> Yeah, so the operating system is the thing that everyone relies on to hide all that stuff from everybody else, right? And so if we cannot offer that abstraction from all of these hardware choices that people need to make, then we're not doing our job. And so that means we have to encompass all the hardware configurations and all the hardware use cases that we can in order to make an application successful. So if people want to go disaggregate all of their components, we have to let 'em do that. If they want to have a kind of more traditional kind of boxed up OEM experience, they should be able to do that too. So yeah, this is what I mean is because it is RHEL responsibility and our duty to make sure that people are insulated from all this chaos underneath, that is a good chunk of the job, yeah. >> The hardware and the OS used to be inseparable right before (indistinct) Hence the importance of hardware. >> Yeah, that's right. >> I'm curious how your job changes, so you just, every 36 months you roll on a new release, which you did today, you announced a new release. You go back into the workplace two days, how is life different? >> Not at all, so the only constant is change, right? And to be honest, a major release, that's a big event for our release teams. That's a big event for our engineering teams. It's a big event for our product management teams, but all these folks have moved on and like we're now we're already planning. RHEL 9.1 and 9.2 and 8.7 and the rest of the releases. And so it's kind of like brief celebration and then right back to work. >> Okay, don't change so much. >> What can we look forward to? What's the future look like of RHEL, RHEL 10? >> Oh yeah, more bigger, stronger, faster, more optimized for those and such and you get, >> Longer lower, wider. >> Yeah, that's right, yeah, that's right, yeah. >> I am curious about CentOS Stream because there was some controversy around the end of life for CentOS and the move to CentOS Stream. >> Yeah. >> A lot of people including me are not really clear on what stream is and how it differs from CentOS, can you clarify that? >> Absolutely, so when Red Hat Enterprise Linux was first created, this was back in the days of Red Hat Linux, right? And because we couldn't balance the needs of the hobbyist market from the needs of the enterprise market, we split into Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Fedora, okay? So then for 15 years, yeah, about 15 years we had Fedora which is where we took all of our risks. That was kind of our early program where we started integrating new components, new open source projects and all the rest of it. And then eventually we would take that innovation and then feed it into the next version of Red Hat Enterprise Linux. The trick with that is that the Red Hat Enterprise Linux work that we did was largely internal to Red Hat and wasn't accessible to partners. And we've just spent a lot of time talking about how much we need to be collaborating with partners. They really had, a lot of them had to wait until like the beta came out before they actually knew what was going to be in the box, okay, well that was okay for a while but now that the market is the way that it is, things are moving so quickly. We need a better way to allow partners to work together with us further upstream from the actual product development. So that's why we created CentOS Stream. So CentOS Stream is the place where we kind of host the party and people can watch the next version of Red Hat Enterprise get developed in real time, partners can come in and help, customers can come in and help. And we've been really proud of the fact that Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9 is the first release that came completely out of CentOS Stream. Another way of putting that is that Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9 is the first version of RHEL that was actually built, 80, 90% of it was built completely in the open. >> Okay, so that's the new playground. >> Yeah, that's right. >> You took a lot of negative pushback when you made the announcement, is that basically because the CentOS users didn't understand what you were doing? >> No, I think the, the CentOS Linux, when we brought CentOS Linux on, this was one of the things that we wanted to do, is we wanted to create this space where we could start collaborating with people. Here's the lesson we learned. It is very difficult to collaborate when you are downstream of the product you're trying to improve because you've already shipped the product. And so once you're for collaborating downstream, any changes you make have to go all the way up the water slide and before they can head all the way back down. So this was the real pivot that we made was moving that partnership and that collaboration activity from the downstream of Red Hat Enterprise Linux to putting it right in the critical path of Red Hat Enterprise Linux development. >> Great, well, thank you for that Gunnar. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, it's great to, >> Yeah, my pleasure. >> See you and have a great day tomorrow. Thanks, and we look forward to seeing you tomorrow. We start at 9:00 AM. East Coast time. I think the keynotes, we will be here right after that to break that down, Paul Gillin and myself. This is day one for theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022 from Boston. We'll see you tomorrow, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>We're back at the red hat summit, 2022, the Cube's continuous coverage. This is day one. We're here all day tomorrow as well. My name is Dave LAN. I'm here with Paul Gillon. Matt Hicks is here. He's executive vice president of products and technologies at red hat. Matt. Good to see you. Thanks for coming on. Nice to see you face to >>Face. Thanks. Thanks Dave. Thanks fall. It's uh, good to be here. >>So you took a different tack with your, uh, keynote today, had a homage to ate a love lace and Serena VA Ramian, which was kind of cool. And your, your point was they weren't noted at their time and nobody was there to build on their early ideas. I mean, ate a lovely, I think it was a century before, right. Ram illusion was a, you know, decade plus, but, and you tied that to open source. You can give us your kind of bumper sticker of your premise there. >>Yeah. You know, I think I have a unique seat in this from red hat where we see, we see new engineers that come in that sort of compete on a world stage and open source and the, the best, which is easy to track just in contributions are not necessarily from the background you would expect them from. And, and it, for me, it's always really inspiring. Like you have this potential in, in people and open source is a great model for getting that out. We told the history story, cuz it, I think when you look over history, just some of that potential that's been ignored before. Um, sure. It's happening right now. But getting that tied into open source models, we think can hopefully let us tap into a little more than, than we have in the past. So >>Greatly. So when you're thinking about innovation and specific to open source, is it a case where I wonder, I really know the history here of open source. Maybe you can educate me. Is it the case where open source observes, uh, a de factacto standard let's say, or some other proprietary approach and says, Hey, we can build that in open and that's so the, the inspiration, or is it an innovation flywheel that just invents? >>I think it's both at this stage. So in the, in the early days, if you take something like Linux, it was a little more of, you know, there was the famous memo of like, this is gonna be a hobbyist project. We're just gonna light up X 86 hardware and have an operating system we can work with. That was a little more of like this standards were there, but it was, can we just build a better operating system with it, be >>Better than Unix cuz would live up to the promise of units. >>That's right. Where in Unix you had some standardization to models, but it wasn't open in that same sense. Uh, Linux has gone well beyond a hobbyist project at this point. Uh, but that was maybe that clone model, um, to units these days though, if you take something like Kubernetes or take something like Ansible, that's just more pure innovation, you didn't necessarily have a Kubernetes model that you're building a better version of it was distributed computing and how can we really make that tick and, um, bring a lot of great minds into that to build it. Um, so I think you see both of 'em, which is it's one of the things that makes open source fun. Like it, it has a broad reach at this point. >>There's one major area of software that opensource has not penetrated yet. And that is applications. I mean, we, there have been, you know, sugar CRM there have been open E R P applications and, and such, none of them really taken off and in fact tend to be drawn back to being proprietary. Why do you suppose opensource has been limited to infrastructure and has hasn't branched out further? >>Yeah, I think part of it is, uh, where can you find a, a model where lots of different companies are, are comfortable contributing into, if you have one solution and one domain from one company you're gonna struggle more getting a real vibrant community built around that. When you pick an area like infrastructure or core platforms, you have a lot of hardware providers, the use cases span from traditional apps to AI. You have a lot of places to run that it's a massive companies. So >>Volume really, it, >>It really is. You just have an interest that spans beyond companies and that's where we've seen open source projects really pick up and build critical mass. How about crypto >>Dows? I mean, that's right. Isn't that the, a form of open source? I mean, is it, isn't that the application really what exactly what you're talking about? It is true or >>It, well, if you look at cryptography encryption algorithms even go to, um, quantum going forward, I think a lot of quantum access will be driven in an open source model. The machines themselves, uh, will be machines, but things like kids kit, uh, that is how most people will access that. So it is a powerful model for getting into areas that are, um, pretty bleeding edge on it as well. >>We were talking, go ahead. We were talking before Andy mentioned that hardware and software increasingly intersecting. That was the theme we heard at the, at the keynote this morning. Yeah. Why do you believe that's happening and how do you see that? How does that affect what you do? >>Uh, I, I think the reason that's happening is there is a push to make decisions closer and closer to users on it because on one side, like law of physics and then on the other of it's just a better experience for it. And so whether that is in transportation or it's in telecommunications, so you see this push outside of data centers to be able to get at that data locally for it. Uh, but if that's the draw, I think also we're seeing hardware architectures are changing. There are, um, standards like arm that are lower power that lets you run pretty powerful compute at the edge as well. And I think it's that combination saying we can do a lot at the edge now and that actually benefits us building user experiences in a lot of different domains is, is making this pull to the edge, uh, really quickly. But it's, it's a, it's an exciting time to be seeing that happening >>And, and, and pretty powerful is almost an understatement. When you think about what the innovations that are going on. Right. I mean, in, in, in, in particular, at the edge mm-hmm, <affirmative>, I mean, you're seeing Moore's law be blown. Everybody says Moore's law is dead, but you're seeing the performance of when you combine the GPU and the CPU and the NPU and the Excel. I mean, it blows away anything we've historically known. Yeah. So you think about the innovations in software that occurred as a result of Moore's law. What are the new beachheads that we could potentially see in open source? >>I think when you start taking the, um, AI patterns on this and AI is a broad space, but if you go even to like machine learning of optimization type use cases, you start, uh, leveraging how you're gonna train those models, which gets you into, you know, CPUs and GPU and TPUs in that world. And then you also have the, how am I gonna take that train model, put it on a really lightweight device and efficiently ask that model questions. And that gets you into a different architecture design. Uh, but that combination, I think we're gonna see these domains build differently where you have mass compute training type capabilities, and then push that as close to the user, as you can, to make decisions that are more dynamic than traditional codes. >>So a lot of the AI that's done today is modeling that's done in the cloud. Yep. And what you're talking about at the edge, and you think about, you know, vehicles is real time influencing. Yep. And that's, that's massive amounts of data. It's a different architecture. Right. And requires different hardware presumably and different software. So, and you guys, well, Linux is obviously there. Yeah. >>That's, that is the, where we get excited about things like the GM announcement you are in the square, in that, um, aspect of running compute right at the end user and actually dealing with sensor and data, that's changing there to help, you know, in this case, like driver's assistance capabilities with it. But I think that the innovation we'll see in that space will be limitless on it. So it's, it's a nice combination of it too. And you'll still have traditional applications that are gonna use those models. I think of it almost as it's like the new middleware, we have our traditional middleware techniques that we know and patterns. Um, they will actually be augmented with things like, um, machine learning models and those capabilities to just be more dynamic. So it's a fun time right now seeing >>That conversion a lot of data too. And again, I wonder how much of that is even gonna be persisted prob probably enough, cuz there's gonna be so much of it, how much it'll come back to the cloud a lot, but maybe not most of it, but it's still massive amounts relative to what we've seen before >>It is. And this is, you know, you've heard our announcement around OpenShift streams in those capabilities. So in red hat, what we do, we will always focus on hybrid with it because a lot of that data it'll be dropped at the edge cuz you won't need it, but the data you act on and the data you need, you will probably need at your indice and in your cloud. And maybe even on premise and capabilities like Kafka and the ability to pick and stream and stay consistent. We think there's a set of really exciting services to be able to enable that class of development where, um, hopefully we'll be at the center of, of that. >>You, you announced, uh, today an agreement with GM, uh, to, to build on their all to five platform, uh, auto industry, very proprietary historically, uh, with their technology. Do you think that this is an opportunity to crank that open? >>A absolutely. I think in, I've been involved with opensource for, for a while, but I think all of them started in a very proprietary model. And then you get to a tipping point where open source models can just unlock more innovation than proprietary models and you see 'em tip and flip. And I think in the automotive industry and actually in a lot of other industries, the capabilities of being able to combine hardware and software fast with the latest capabilities, it'll drive more innovation than just sticking to proprietary models. So yeah, I believe it will be one of many things to come there. >>You've been involved in open surf for a while. Like how long of a while people must joke about when they look at you, Matt, they must say, oh, did you start when you were five? Yeah. >>It's >>Uh, you get that a lot. >>I, I do, uh, it's my, my children, I think aged me a bit, but uh, but yeah, for me it was the mid nineties. That's when I started with, uh, with open source. >>It was uh, wow. So >>It's been a long, long >>Run. You made the statement in your keynote, that software development is, is, is messy. I presumably part of your job is to make it less messy. But now we talk about all this, these new beachheads, this new new innovations, a lot of it's unknown. Yeah. And it could be really messy. So who are the, who is there a new breed of developer that's emerging? Are they gonna come over from the cloud developers or is it the, is it the OT crowd and the, and the OT crowd? That's gonna be the new developers. >>I, I wish I knew, but I would say, I think you, I do think you'll get to almost like a laws of physics type challenge where you won't learn everything. You're not gonna know, uh, the depths of 5g implementation and Kubernetes and Linux on that. And so for us, this is where ecosystem providers are really, really critical where you have to know your intersection points, but you also have to partner really well to actually drive innovation in some of these spaces cuz uh, the domains themselves are massive on it. So our areas we're gonna know hybrid, we're gonna know, you know, open source based platforms to enable hybrid. And then we're gonna partner with companies that know their domains and industries really well to bring solutions to customers. So >>I'm curious about partnering, uh, cuz Paul cor may mentioned that as well as, as being critical, do you have sort of a template for partnering or is each partnership unique? >>Um, >>I think at this point, uh, the market's changing so fast that, uh, we do have templates of, uh, who are you going to embed solutions with? Who are you going to co-sell with? And co-create uh, the challenge in technology though, is it shifts so quickly. If you go back five years, maybe even 10 years, public cloud probably wasn't as dominant. Um, as it is now, now we're starting to see the uptick of edge solutions, probably being, having as much draw as public cloud. And so I think for us, the partnership follows the innovation on those curves and finding the right model where that works for customers is the key thing for us. But I wish there was more of a pattern. We could say it stays stable for decades, but I think it changes with the market on, we do that. >>But you know, it's funny cuz you you've, you see every 15 years or so the industry gets disrupted. I mean we certainly saw it with mainframes and PC and then the internet and then the cloud, uh, you guys have kind of been there. Well Linux throughout, I mean, okay. It built the, built the internet, built the cloud, it's building the edge. So it's almost, I don't wanna say your disruption proof cause that's just, that's gonna jinx you, but, but in, but you've architected the products in a way that they're compatible with these new errors. Mm-hmm <affirmative> of industry, >>Everything needs an operating >>System. Everything needs an operating system, but you've seen operating systems come and go, you know, and, and Linux has survived so many different waves. Why, how >>You know, I, I think for us, when you see open source projects, they definitely get to a critical mass where you have so much contribution, so much innovation there that they're gonna be able to follow the trends pretty well. If you look at a Linux, whatever the next hardware innovation that comes out is Linux has enough gravity that, um, it's open, it's successful, you're gonna design to it. The capability will be there. I think you're seeing similar things in Kubernetes now where if you're going to try to drive application innovation, it is a model that gives you a ton of reach. You have thousands of contributors. That's been our model though is find those projects be influential in, 'em be able to drive value in life cycles. But I think it's that open source model that gives us the durability where it can keep changing and tracking to new patterns. So, so >>Yeah, there's been a lot of open source that wasn't able to sustain. So I think you guys obviously have a magic formula. That's true. >>We, there is a, there is some art to picking, I think millions of projects. Uh, but you've gotta watch for that. >>Yeah. Open source is also a place place where failed products go to die. Yeah. <laugh> so you have to be sure you're not, you're not in that corner. >>Yeah. Well >>Look at Kubernetes. I mean the fact that that actually happened is it's astounding to me when you think about it, I mean even red hat was ready to go on a different path. What if that had happened? Who knows? Maybe it never would've maybe to your point about Ava Lovelace, maybe it would've taken a decade to, or run revolution. >>You know, I think in some of these you have to, you have to watch really closely. We obviously have a lot of signals of what will make good long term health. And I, I don't think everyone looks at those the same. We look at 'em from trademark controls and how foundations are structured and um, who the contributors are and the spread of that. And it's not perfect. But I think for us, you have to have those that longevity built in there where you will have a spike of popularity that has the tendency to just, um, fall apart on it. So we've been yeah. Doing that pretty >>Well conditions for a long life is something that's a that's maybe it's an art form. I don't know if it's a data form. It's a culture. Maybe, maybe it's >>Cultural. Yeah. Probably a combination some days I think I'm like this could part art, part science. Yeah. But, uh, but it's certainly a fun space to be in and see that happen. It, um, yeah, it's inspiring to me. Yeah. >>Matt Hicks. Great to have you back on the cube and uh, good job on the keynote really, um, interesting angle that you took. So >>Congratulations. Thanks for having me. >>Yeah. You're very welcome. All right. Keep it right there. Dave ante for Paul Gillon red hat summit, 2022 from Boston. You're watching the cube.

>>Mm. Welcome back to the seaports in Boston City is abuzz. Bruins tonight, Celtics Tomorrow night. We're all excited. We're talking open source, which is a very exciting topic. Every company is using open source. I mean, it is the mainspring of innovation. I'm Dave along with my co host, Paul Dillon. And you're watching the cubes. Coverage of Red Hat. Summer 2022. Raj Raj Masinga is here. He's hybrid and emerging Platforms lead at Accenture and Ghetto Greber. Who's red hats? Business group lead eccentric. Gentlemen, welcome to the Cube. Thanks for coming >>on. Thank you. >>Thank you, Raj. We saw in the keynote up there today with Stephanie. She's coming on tomorrow. Rockstar Stephanie. Cheers. Also a Boston sports fan, and I have to work at it, but you can talk about the history with red hat. How long have you guys been at this? And give us a journey update. >>Well, first of all, thanks for having us here. Um, yes, we are big fans of Red Hat and especially Stephanie. I get to I had the pleasure of working with a very closely, um, our relationship with Red Hat goes many, many years, decades I think. And but Paul, come here will tell you that. You know, we've been focused a lot with the formation of our new business unit in Cloud. First around, migrating to the public cloud. But now, as we focus more and more around how our clients begin to operate in the public cloud in the cloud ecosystem hybrid is coming much more into focus. And Red Hat is very much a key client of a key partner of us. So we go way back. But this is all about us doubling down and increasing our partnership and deepening it with them. >>So, uh, you talked today about hybrid Cloud is everything. And it seems like a couple of years ago there was focuses more on moving to the public cloud and getting off of private infrastructure. Has there been a change in the ways in which customers are thinking, are they gonna be hanging onto their private infrastructure longer, perhaps, than was expected a couple of years ago? >>I think the first of all, it's a very different industry by industry. If you look at retail or consumer goods, I think there's a big movement in terms of percentages of workloads that are getting moved onto public cloud. If you look at industries like banking or utilities or government, more regular financial services, more regulated industries. I think we are finding a much larger percentage of their workloads because of regulatory reasons and security reasons, etcetera. Our need to remain either on premise or in private cloud. So I think it very much depends on the industry. But regardless the hype, you know, especially with the movement to edge now hybrid is going to be, you know, permeating everything. So I think by industry depends. But but the edges driving a whole new flywheel. >>You know, we started the Cuban 2010, so the cloud was, you know, modern cloud. Anyway, it was like, say, four years in into it and at the time, to your point Raj Financial Services, there was an evil word. No way we're ever going to the cloud. No, that's changed, obviously. But then, when the financial crisis hit, >>you >>had so initially it was a lot of tyre kicking experimentation. When the financial crisis hit, you had a lot of CFO saying, Okay, let's shift Capex to Apex and so that was sort of a bridge. And then after we came out, it was like this spate of innovation. And then we saw that during the pandemic, where cloud migration was a high priority and or it was the lifeline. And now it sounds like customers are kind of rethinking to your earlier conversation. What is cloud? It's that operating model. So I wonder if you could sort of Can you confirm that's kind of the journey that customers are taking? Where are they today? What does it mean? There? You know the the operating model. What do they consider cloud? >>Um, you actually, you see it? It's like it's really try forward to the cloud. Uh, but where it was in the beginning, If it doesn't hype about Public Cloud, they become more and more aware that it's hybrid because they have to bring the legacy system and process into the cloud as well. And it takes more time that actually they have fought before. So it's like there was a process of learning and also like in the steps moving forward to the operating model because they also understand I cannot operate a cloud like I was operating in the classical way like my old data centre and everything. It needs all the capabilities it needs, all the skills and especially if you go in a hybrid world. And it's a hybrid operation between the classic traditional but also the new ways of how you operate into a cloud. And you really see also the financial services. Now, uh, we had, uh I mean watch presented at keynote. We had a client in Germany. He made a decision, a very traditional financial services clients providing the service to chairman saving banks. And they did this decision and I would say, if you have spoken to them 10 years ago, they will not go into the cloud. But now they went to the cloud via private cloud, and now they got the confidence about how to operate in it. And now they move forward into a public cloud. But from a private cloud into the public cloud. Today, after security, they have up Skilling on skills and people and they understand the process and what's really required and needed in order to have such an environment. >>Generally, what's the strategy with regard to modernisation organisations? More building like an abstraction layer? Uh, with microservices and then connecting to the cloud. Or are they actually rewriting applications to make them cloud native? What are you What are you advising clients from a strategy standpoint, and I know it depends, but, you know, it's >>a It's a great question. I think the genesis to that strategy is how they view infrastructure, Right? So you know, everyone is, has this kind of, I don't know that this is almost mythical opinion out there with cloud. You don't need to worry about your infrastructure. All the providers will worry about it, and you just need to move it there. But the opposite is true. It's really critical what your infrastructure strategy is as you move to the cloud, because depending on what workload you have, you know it can be on any one of the continuum that you described. So the first thing is, where do you want to house your workload? Is the question and that will drive. How what do you want to do with your application? Whether you want to just maintain it the way it is, Do you want to simply modernise it, keeping where it is, or do you want to completely risk in it or even eliminated. So so I think the entire basically the answer to your question around. Do we? What do we do with the application? Is fundamentally driven by what is your infrastructure strategy and what that workload needs to do for you. >>So I know you want to jump in, but I got to follow up. You're saying hardware matters because we heard Paul Corvino today talking about this hardware renaissance. I'm actually I just ran a power panel called. Does hardware still matter? You're saying it matters? >>Yeah. And and it doesn't. And infrastructure doesn't always. I mean, now that you can do infrastructure as code, right? I mean, I was at the Del summit last time and read That is a huge partner of Dell now, right? Which, you know, uh, was much more, uh, partnered with VM ware. But I think the whole ecosystem is opening up, and even the hardware providers are looking at this in a much more nimble way. But yes, it's very much part of the conversation. They haven't gone away. >>During your keynote. You outlined sort of your strategy. Going forward is called cloud first. Yes. What does cloud first mean? >>Well, um, we we want to make sure that when we talk about transformation of business with our clients, So extension always goes with the idea of an industry lens of solving a specific problem for a client. What is the business problem we solve? And increasingly, what we want to message and drive to our clients is if you're thinking about, regardless of what the business is technologies absolutely critical to whatever transformation you're doing and when. When you look at technology, you have to think cloud first because that's where all the innovation is happening. That's where all the, um um, investments are being driven. Whether it's an I mean, it's a software vendor, but it's a hardware vendor with its uh, so you have to think cloud first when you think about transforming your business. >>Uh, what is How does modernisation play into that? You know, a lot of vendors are throwing a lot of resources that the modernisation market VM ware, Tanzania and IBM and such, uh, how interesting our customers really a Modernising legacy applications >>hugely right, because fundamentally, I think everything is now driven by our experiences. What we now are used to in terms of, uh, interfacing with applications are interfacing with function sets or interfacing with technology. So there is a lot of inherent, um, legacy technology that doesn't have that experience. So when you think about transforming, you have to come at it from an experience point of view. And when you think in those terms modernisation or even rebuilding the same, even if it's the same function set, uh, re skinning it and modernisation is critical for the purposes of engagement. >>What's the number one challenge that customers that you're working with face in terms of modernisation? Is it trying to figure out like Rogers sort of laying out the portfolio? What do I do with it? Do I modernise it? Do I retire it? Do I let it just die on the vine? What's their number one challenge? >>Uh, mainly it depends also on the industry, but it's, uh, I would say, for the highly regulated, certainly regulations. They always have an own interpretation of the regulations. Regulation means for them, but normally it's not really what they understand. But I think this is more and more coming to Annie's and more people understand what it really means, but it's also what we see a lot. They think first about technology, but not what kind of business problem they want, Uh, and they want to solve. So it's like, instead of having a technology neutral discussion is really do want to achieve, um, to have really start on this side and then having this discussion away, which, obviously it's one of the key, even because they start to the cloud even without having a strategy without having a vision. If you have a clear vision, if you have a clear strategy, you know where you want to go, and then you can make your business case. You can make you architecture and then you decide on technology. And then, of course, on this journey, all the things about security compliance coming to the plane, Yeah, and I think I think that's the easiest approach. But clients struggle to understand. Of course, I mean, the technology is changing rapidly. Even new products and release cycle new life cycles, the complexity of all the tools hardware we mentioned before network is changing new working coming up. It's really hard to keep pace or keep up with the base of the technology and what's happening even for us. And then you understand the complexity and bring this complexity back to simplicity, but not without losing. We have this also keynote the efficiency and, uh, flexibility for an engineer, because that's what he needs >>to your clients. Have the skill sets to do all that such a self serving question to you guys. But but no, do they? I mean, there's a skills shortage. There's a a battle for talent. So how are they >>dealing? I mean, it's obvious the battle for talent is here. I mean, everybody is looking for the best talent, and if we need, if you need a full stack. Engineer, for example, is very hard to get a full stack engineer on your ground. You call really cloud native. So you have to up skill people to re skilled people. There's also a change coming into it and the changes not to forget. So it's what we say most time. The technology is an easy part, but the change change the organisation, change up skilled organisation. That's the hard part because you need to change from from one mindset to another, and we know from the from the past. What change? People are not open to change in general, so we need to change the mindset. >>I wanna go back to Hybrid Cloud because we have Dani from Red Hat was on earlier and he said, Edges really redefining the definition of hybrid cloud. It's it's more complex architecture, and it's changing the nature of how we think about hybrid Cloud. Are you seeing that with your customers? Are they changing their thinking about what hybrid means in that context? >>Yeah, completely. You know, I was I was We did a bunch of, uh, research recently, and I had I just wanted to make sure I called this. I mean, there's a flexible report that came out that says 80% of all enterprises now are on hybrid 89% multi cloud redheaded. A report that said 80% of our businesses are expected to, um, uh, increase their use of open source. Right, So So, yes, hybrid is everywhere. Edge is driving it, but there's a There's another critical element to that movement. The complexity of our clients. Estates are increasing because whether it's hybrid or whether it's edge or whatever, they are now. You know, given if you're a C i or a C T o. Your estate is really complex now. So one of the things that we now need to do is how do we simplify that? So, you know, we think and we've been talking with red hat about this. We need to come up with a clean, you know, we keep calling it, you know, single pane of glass for a enterprise that allows them to look at their estate in a way that allows them to then simply make some innovative decisions across the entire state. So, yes, edges driving hybrid. But the key thing that we now need to overcome is how do we manage that complexity? >>We have new term. Uh, I call it Super Cloud, but the session is a better word. Medic cloud. That's gonna what I think of that century. I think of deep industry expertise. Of course, we have that, but with the partnership from redhead, it's a very it's horizontal in the sense that it can go anywhere. So how do you guys work in in terms of within Accenture plugging into your deep industry expertise? And how does that horizontal redhead >>fit. That's a really good question. So, you know, one of the things, you know. First of all, we came out with a announcement today about our expanded relationship with Red Hat. One of the key elements in that announcement is how we are looking and bringing in red Hat into our industry business motions. So we actually have decided to pick a certain number of industries. You know, financial services is one. Telco is another. We are thinking about utilities in Europe. Public health is a is another one that we are looking at. And as we come up with our offerings, you heard me and Stephanie talk about joint offerings earlier on the keynote. Um, these offerings are industry offerings, but in those offerings we have embedded and we are, they're powered by redhead technology. Um, that allows these industry solutions to drive innovation through their technology. Um, yes. Red hat can be, for the most part, a horizontal cross industry, you know, technology. But you have to really bring them into specific industrial solutions because of the way we go to market. And I think Red hat brings innovation, uh, in a way that these industries haven't seen before. >>So I mean, how do you stay out of their way? Because they have a services operation that they're trying to grow. And that's your business as well. So where the lines of demarcation >>back to your question? I I don't I don't think there is a limiting opportunity. Read? Had, you know Stephanie Me, Paul, we're all talking about How do we collectively increase both our armies? You know, I I Yes, there might be occasional overlaps in the trenches, but when you look at the bigger picture, it is not a problem at all. >>I wouldn't think so. I mean, the way you're describing Rogers exactly the way it should work. You lead with the business, figure out the business problem, how you're gonna solve that. The technology will take care of itself. Technologies come and they go. And you want to use modern technologies, obviously. But if you don't get the business piece right, forget no technology is gonna save you >>exactly, right. And and the complexities of what the businesses today are facing is getting more and more difficult. And I think actually, technologies like red hat, you know, they're the whole concept of open source, I think is very creative around driving innovations from the market. I >>want to ask you that because Paul Kermie is you know, the storey was sort of an homage to open source. How much do customers really care about open source >>customers care about innovation and and anything that drives innovation to their business, whether it's whether it comes from technology, whether it comes from crowdsourcing, whether it comes from, you know, uh, marketing doesn't matter. I think when you look at the key hunger for innovation and how open source drives innovation, it becomes part of the business conversation. And, uh and I think that's been one of the mantras that Paul has had from day one about how this is such a great platform for innovation. And I think that's >>something customers asked for. They say we must develop this using open source platforms and tool sets. >>Um, it depends. I think I think there are some technology CEO s R c T O s that are much more religious about what? Their technologies that needs to be there are others that are that are much more business oriented. Um, so yes, there are. You know, if it's more in telecom field, I think telecom or some of the more, uh, technology driven fields, they will ask for open source. In others, they we bring, bring it through as part of offering. >>Here's the nuance that I see and you mentioned Paul Cormier. Accenture, especially. I mean, you look at your ascendancy as a company, you for years would take known processes and codify them in software. And you made, you know, a lot of great innovations doing that. And people who made a lot of >>money >>today, this new normal, he calls it. I call it the new abnormal. You don't know what's around the corner. You have to build flexibility into your business, and that is something that open source enables. Uh, so that's sort of this, Really Not really. We don't want to speak about it too much. Business resiliency and flexibility is that that is the new normal. I don't see how you can do it without without open sources expertise. >>I completely agree that I and I think, um, it's actually an asset. So you know, in some ways, selfishly, by having open source in a solution stack some of the innovation gets them much more democratised, right? So? So it can come from a much broader sweet. So the load is not only an extension to come up with all the innovation we can, we can actually come up with a more democratised way of bringing that innovation in. So I think that's that's >>great. And it doesn't always go back to the community. I mean, Amazon built a $70 billion business on open source, but not all right, guys. Thanks so much for coming. Thank you very much for having a pleasure. All right, keep it right there. This is Dave Volonte for Paul Dillon. The Cubes. Continuous coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022 from the seaport in Boston. We'll be right back. >>Mm mm.