(bright music) >> Hello everyone, welcome today's session for the "AWS Startup Showcase" presented by theCUBE, featuring ThoughtSpot for this track and data and analytics. I'm John Furrier, your host. Today, we're joined by Victor Chang, VP of ThoughtSpot Everywhere and Corporate Development for ThoughtSpot. Victor, thanks for coming on and thanks for presenting. Talking about this building interactive data apps through ThoughtSpot Everywhere. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, it's my pleasure to be here. >> So digital transformation is reality. We're seeing it large-scale. More and more reports are being told fast. People are moving with modern application development and if you don't have AI, you don't have automation, you don't have the analytics, you're going to get slowed down by other forces and even inside companies. So data is driving everything, data is everywhere. What's the pitch to customers that you guys are doing as everyone realizes, "I got to go faster, I got to be more secure," (laughs) "And I don't want to get slowed down." What's the- >> Yeah, thank you John. No, it's true. I think with digital transformation, what we're seeing basically is everything is done in the cloud, everything gets done in applications, and everything has a lot of data. So basically what we're seeing is if you look at companies today, whether you are a SaaS emerging growth startup, or if you're a traditional company, the way you engage with your customers, first impression is usually through some kind of an application, right? And the application collects a lot of data from the users and the users have to engage with that. So for most of the companies out there, one of the key things that really have to do is find a way to make sense and get value for the users out of their data and create a delightful and engaging experience. And usually, that's pretty difficult these days. You know, if you are an application company, whether it doesn't really matter what you do, if you're hotel management, you're productivity application, analytics is not typically your strong suit, and where ThoughtSpot Everywhere comes in is instead of you having to build your own analytics and interactivity experience with a data, ThoughtSpot Everywhere helps deliver a really self-service interactive experience and transform your application into a data application. And with digital transformation these days, all applications have to engage, all applications have to delight, and all applications have to be self-service. And with analytics, ThoughtSpot Everywhere brings that for you to your customers and your users. >> So a lot of the mainstream enterprises and even businesses from SMB, small businesses that are in the cloud are scaling up, they're seeing the benefits. What's the problem that you guys are targeting? What's the use case? When does a potential customer or customer know they get that ThoughtSpot is needed to be called in and to work with? Is it that they want low code, no code? Is it more democratization? What's the problem statement and how do you guys turn that problem being solved into an opportunity and benefit? >> I think the key problem we're trying to solve is that most applications today, when they try to deliver analytics, really when they're delivering, is usually a static representation of some data, some answers, and some insights that are created by someone else. So usually the company would present, you know, if you think about it, if you go to your banking application, they usually show some pretty charts for you and then it sparks your curiosity about your credit card transactions or your banking transactions over the last month. Naturally, usually for me, I would then want to click in and ask the next question, which transactions fall into this category, what time, you know, change the categories a bit, usually you're stuck. So what happens with most applications? The challenge is because someone else is asking the questions and then the user is just consuming static insights, you wet their appetite and you don't satisfy it. So application users typically get stunted, they're not satisfied, and then leave application. Where ThoughtSpot comes in, ThoughtSpots through differentiation is our ability to create an interactive curiosity journey with the user. So ThoughtSpot in general, if you buy a standalone, that's the experience that we really stand by, now you can deliberate your application where the user, any user, business user, untrained, without the help of an analyst can ask their own questions. So if you see, going back to my example, if it's in your banking app, you see some kind of visualization around expense actions, you can dig in. What about last month? What about last week? Which transactions? Which merchant? You know, all those things you can continue your curiosity journey so that the business user and the app user ask their questions instead of an analyst who's sitting in the company behind a desk kind of asking your questions for you. >> And that's the outcome that everyone wants. I totally see that and everyone kind of acknowledges that, but I got to then ask you, okay, how do you make that happen? Because you've got the developers who have essentially make that happen and so, the cloud is essentially SaaS, right? So you got a SaaS kind of marketplace here. The apps can be deployed very quickly, but in order to do that, you kind of need self-service and you got to have good analytics, right? So self-service, you guys have that. Now on the analytics side, most people have to build their own or use an existing tool and tools become specialists, you know what I'm saying? So you're in this kind of like weird cycle of, "Okay, I got to deploy and spend resource to build my own, which could be long and tiresome." >> Yeah. >> "And or rely on other tools that could be good, but then I have too many tools but that creates specialism kind of silos." These seems to be trends. Do you agree with that? And if customers have this situation, you guys come in, can you help there? >> Absolutely, absolutely. So, you know, if you think about the two options that you just laid out, that you could either roll your own, kind of build your own, and that's really hard. If you think about analyst industry, where 20, $30 billion industry with a lot of companies that specialize in building analytics so it's a really tough thing to do. So it doesn't really matter how big of a company you are, even if you're a Microsoft or an Amazon, it's really hard for them to actually build analytics internally. So for a company to try to do it on their own, hire the talent and also to come up with that interactive experience, most companies fail. So what ends up happening is you deliver the budget and the time to market ends up taking much longer, and then the experience is engaging for the users and they still end up leaving your app, having a bad impression. Now you can also buy something. They are our competitors who offer embedded analytics options as well, but the mainstream paradigm today with analytics is delivering. We talked about earlier static visualizations of insights that are created by someone else. So that certainly is an option. You know, where ThoughtSpot Everywhere really stands out above everything else is our technology is fundamentally built for search and interactive and cloud-scale data kind of an experience that the static visualizations today can't really deliver. So you could deliver a static dashboard purchase from one of our competitors, or if you really want to engage your users again, today is all about self-service, it's all about interactivity, and only ThoughtSpot's architecture can deliver that embedded in a data app for you. >> You know, one of the things I'm really impressed with you guys at ThoughtSpot is that you see data as I see strategic advantage for companies and people say that it's kind of a cliche but, or a punchline, and some sort of like business statement. But when you start getting into new kinds of workflows, that's the intellectual property. If you can enable people to essentially with very little low-code, no-code, or just roll their own analysis and insights from a platform, you're then creating intellectual property for the company. So this is kind of a new paradigm. And so a lot of CIO's that I talked to, or even CSOs on the security side of like, they kind of want this but maybe can't get there overnight. So if I'm a CIO, Victor, who do I, how do I point to on my team to engage with you guys? Like, okay, you sold me on it, I love the vision. This is definitely where we want to go. Who do I bring into the meeting? >> I think that in any application, in any company actually, there's usually product leaders and developers that create applications. So, you know, if you are a SaaS company, obviously your core product, your core product team would be the right team we want to talk to. If you're a traditional enterprise, you'd be surprised actually, how many traditional enterprises that been around for 50, 100 years, you might think of them selling a different product but actually, they have a lot of visual applications and product teams within their company as well. For example, you know, we have customers like a big tractor company. You can probably imagine who they might be. They actually have visual applications that they use ThoughtSpot to offer to the dealers so that they can look at their businesses with the tractors. We also have a big telecom company, for example, that you would think about telecom as a whole service but they have a building application that they offer to their merchants to track their billing. So what I'm saying is really, whether you're a software company where that's your core product, or you're a traditional enterprise that has visual applications underneath to support your core product, there's usually product teams, product leaders, and developers. Those are the ones that we want to talk to and we can help them realize a better vision for the product that they're responsible for. >> I mean, the reality is all applications need analytics, right, at some level. >> Yes. >> Full instrumentation at a minimum log everything and then the ability to roll that up, that's where I see people always telling me like that's where the challenge seems to be. Okay, I can log everything, but now how do I have a... And then after the fact that they say, "Give me a report, what's happening?" >> That's right. >> They get stuck. >> They get stuck 'cause you get that report and you know, someone else asked that question for you and you're probably a curious person. I'm a curious person. You always have that next question, and then usually if you're in a company, let's just say, you're a CIO. You're probably used to having a team of analysts at your fingertip so at least if you have a question, you don't like the report, you can find two people, five people they'll respond to your request. But if you're a business application user, you're sitting there, I don't know about you, but I don't remember the last time I actually went through and really found a support ticket in my application, or I really read a detailed documentation describing features in application. Users like to be self-taught, self-service and they like to explore it on their own. And there's no analyst there, there's no IT guy that they can lean on so if they get a static report of the data, they'll naturally always want to ask more questions, then they're stuck. So it's that kind of unsatisfying where, "I have some curiosity, you sparked by questions, I can't answer them." That's where I think a lot of companies struggle with. That's why a lot of applications, they're data intensive but they don't deliver any insights. >> It's interesting and I like this anywhere idea because you think about like what you guys do, applications can be, they always start small, right? I mean, applications got to be built. So you guys, your solution really fits for small startups and business all the way up to large enterprises which in a large enterprise, they could have hundreds and thousands of applications which look like small startups. >> Absolutely, absolutely. You know, that's a great thing about the sort of ThoughtSpot Everywhere which takes the engine around ThoughtSpot that we built over the last eight or nine years and could deliver in any kind of a context. 'Cause nowadays, as opposed to 10, 15, 20 years ago, everything does run in applications these days. We talk about visual transformation at the beginning of the call. That's really what it means is today, the workflows of business are conducted in applications no matter who you're interacting with. And so we have all these applications. A lot of times, yes, if you have big analytical problems, you can take the data and put into a different context like ThoughtSpot's own UI and do a lot of analytics, but we also understand that a lot of times customers and users, they like to analyze in the context the workflow of the application they're actually working in. And so with that situation, actually having the analytics embedded within right next to their workflow is something that I think a lot of, especially business users that are less trained, they'd like to do that right in the context of their business productivity workflow. And so that's where ThoughtSpot Everywhere, I know the terminology is a little self-serving, but ThoughtSpot Everywhere, we think ThoughtSpot could actually be everywhere in your business workflow. >> That's great value proposition. I'm going to put my skeptic hat on challenge you and say, Okay, I don't want to... Prove it to me, what's in it for me? And how much is it going to cost me, how do I engage? So, you know- >> Yeah. >> What's in it for me as the buyer? If people want to buy this, I want to use it, I'm going to get engaged with ThoughtSpot and how much does it cost and what's the engagements look like? >> So, what's in it for you is easy. So if you have data in the cloud and you have an application, you should use ThoughtSpot Everywhere to deliver a much more valuable, interactive experience for your user's data. So that's clear. How do you engage? So we have a very flexible pricing models. If your data's in the cloud, we can either, you can purchase with us, we'll land small and then grow with your consumption. You know, that's always the kind of thing, "Hey, allow us to prove it to you, right?" We start, and then if a user starts to consume, you don't really have to pay a big bill until we see the consumption increase. So we have consumption and data capacity-based types of pricing models. And you know, one of the real advantages that we have for cloud applications is if you're a developer, often, even in the past for ThoughtSpot, we haven't always made that development experience very easy. You have to embed a relatively heavy product but the beauty for ThoughtSpot is from the beginning, we were designed with a modern API-based kind of architecture. Now, a lot of our BI competitors were designed and developed in the desktop server kind of era where everything you embed is very monolithic. But because we have an API driven architecture, we invest a lot of time now to wrap a seamless developer SDK, plus very easy to use REST APIs, plus an interactive kind of a portal to make that development experience also really simple. So if you're a developer, now you really can get from zero to an easy app for ThoughtSpot embedded in your data app in just often in less than 60 minutes. >> John: Yeah. >> So that's also a very great proposition where modern leaders is your data's in the cloud, you've got developers with an SDK, it can get you into an app very quickly. >> All right so bottom line, if you're in the cloud, you got to get the data embed in the apps, data everywhere with ThoughtSpot. >> Yes. >> All right, so let's unpack it a little bit because I think you just highlighted I think what I think is the critical factor for companies as they evaluate their plethora of tools that they have and figuring out how to streamline and be cloud native in scale. You mentioned static and old BI competitors to the cloud. They also have a team of analysts as well that just can make the executives feel like the all of the reports are dynamic but they're not, they're just static. But look at, I know you guys have a relation with Snowflake, and not to kind of bring them into this but to highlight this, Snowflake disrupted the data warehouse. >> Yes. >> Because they're in the cloud and then they refactored leveraging cloud scale to provide a really easy, fast type of value for their product and then the rest is history. They're public, they're worth a lot of money. That's kind of an example of what's coming for every category of companies. There's going to be that. In fact, Jerry Chen, who was just given the keynote here at the event, had just had a big talk called "Castles In The Cloud", you can build a moat in the cloud with your application if you have the right architecture. >> Absolutely. >> So this is kind of a new, this is a new thing and it's almost like beachfront property, whoever gets there first wins the category. >> Exactly, exactly. And we think the timing is right now. You know, Snowflake, and even earlier, obviously we had the best conference with Redshift, which really started the whole cloud data warehouse wave, and now you're seeing Databricks even with their Delta Lake and trying to get into that kind of swim lane as well. Right now, all of a sudden, all these things that have been brewing in the background in the data architecture has to becoming mainstream. We're now seeing even large financial institutions starting to always have to test and think about moving their data into cloud data warehouse. But once you're in the cloud data warehouse, all the benefits of its elasticity, performance, that can really get realized at the analytics layer. And what ThoughtSpot really can bring to the table is we've always, because we're a search-based paradigm and when you think about search. Search is all about, doesn't really matter what kind of search you're doing, it's about digging really deep into a lot of data and delivering interactive performance. Those things have always... Doesn't really matter what data architecture we sit on, I've always been really fundamental to how we build our product. And that translates extremely well when you have your data in a Snowflake or Redshift have billions of rows in the cloud. We're the only company, we think, that can deliver interactive performance on all the data you have in a cloud data warehouse. >> Well, I want to congratulate you, guys. I'm really a big fan of the company. I think a lot of companies are misunderstood until they become big and there was, "Why didn't everyone else do that search? Well, I thought they were a search engine?" Being search centric is an architectural philosophy. I know as a North Star for your company but that creates value, right? So if you look at like say, Snowflake, Redshift and Databricks, you mentioned a few of those, you have kind of a couple of things going on. You have multiple personas kind of living well together and the developers like the data people. Normally, they hated each other, right? (giggles) Or maybe they didn't hate each other but there's conflict, there's always cultural tension between the data people and the developers. Now, you have developers who are becoming data native, if you will, just by embedding that in. So what Snowflake, these guys, are doing is interesting. You can be a developer and program and get great results and have great performance. The developers love Snowflake, they love Databricks, they love Redshift. >> Absolutely. >> And it's not that hard and the results are powerful. This is a new dynamic. What's your reaction to that? >> Yeah, no, I absolutely believe that. I think, part of the beauty of the cloud is I like your kind of analogy of bringing people together. So being in the cloud, first of all, the data is accessible by everyone, everywhere. You just need a browser and the right permissions, you can get your data, and also different kind of roles. They all kind of come together. Things best of breed tools get blended together through APIs. Everything just becomes a lot more accessible and collaborative and I know that sounds kind of little kumbaya, but the great thing about the cloud is it does blur the lines between goals. Everyone can do a little bit of everything and everyone can access a little bit more of their data and get more value out of it. >> Yeah. >> So all of that, I think that's the... If you talk about digital transformation, you know, that's really at the crux of it. >> Yeah, and I think at the end of the day, speed and high quality applications is a result and I think, the speed game if automation being built in on data plays a big role in that, it's super valuable and people will get slowed down. People get kind of angry. Like I don't want to get, I want to go faster, because automations and AI is going to make things go faster on the dev side, certainly with DevOps, clouds proven that. But if you're like an old school IT department (giggles) or data department, you're talking to weeks not minutes for results. >> Yes. >> I mean, that's the powerful scale we're talking about here. >> Absolutely. And you know, if you think about it, you know, if it's days to minutes, it sounds like a lot but if you think about like also each question, 'cause usually when you're thinking about questions, they come in minutes. Every minute you have a new question and if each one then adds days to your journey, that over time is just amplified, it's just not sustainable. >> Okay- >> So now in the cloud world, you need to have things delivered on demand as you think about it. >> Yeah, and of course you need the data from a security standpoint as well and build that in. Chances is people shift left. I got to ask you if I'm a customer, I want to just run this by you. You mentioned you have an SDK and obviously talking to developers. So I'm working with ThoughtSpot, I'm the leader of the organization. I'm like, "Okay, what's the headroom? What's going to happen as a bridge, the future gets built so I'm going to ride with ThoughtSpot." You mentioned SDK, how much more can I do to build and wrap around ThoughtSpot? Because obviously, this kind of value proposition is enabling value. >> Yes. >> So I want to build around it. How do I get started and where does it go? >> Yeah, well, you can get started as easy as starting with our free trial and just play around with it. And you know, the beauty of SDK and when I talk about how ThoughtSpot is built with API-driven architecture is, hey, there's a lot of magic and features built into ThoughtSpot core pod. You could embed all of that into an application if you would like or you could also use our SDK and our APIs to say, "I just want to embed a couple of visualizations," start with that and allow the users to take into that. You could also embed the whole search feature and allow users to ask repetitive questions, or you can have different role-based kind of experiences. So all of that is very flexible and very dynamic and with SDK, it's low-code in the sense where it creates a JavaScript portal for you and even for me who's haven't coded in a long time. I can just copy and paste some JavaScript code and I can see my applications reflecting in real time. So it's really kind of a modern experience that developers in today's world appreciate, and because all the data's in the cloud and in the cloud, applications are built as services connected through APIs, we really think that this is the modern way that developers would get started. And analysts, even analysts who don't have strong developer training can get started with our developer portal. So really, it's a very easy experience and you can customize it in whichever way you want that suits your application's needs. >> Yeah, I think it's, you don't have to be a developer to really understand the basic value of reuse and discovery of services. I think that's one of these we hear from developers all the time, "I had no idea that Victor did that code. Why do I have to rewrite that?" So you see, reuse come up a lot around automation where code is building with code, right? So you have this new vibe and you need data to discover that search paradigm mindset. How prevalent is that on the minds of customers? Are they just trying to like hold on and survive through the pandemic? (giggles) >> Well, customers are definitely thinking about it. You know, the challenge is change is always hard, you know? So it takes time for people to see the possibilities and then have to go through especially in larger organizations, but even in smaller organizations, people think about, "Well, how do I change my workflow?" and then, "How do I change my data pipeline?" You know, those are the kinds of things where, you know, it takes time, and that's why Redshift has been around since 2012 or I believe, but it took years before enterprises really are now saying, "The benefits are so profound that we really have to change the workflows, change the data pipelines to make it work because we can't hold on to the old ways." So it takes time but when the benefits are so clear, it's really kind of a snowball effect, you know? Once you change a data warehouse, you got to think about, "Do I need to change my application architecture?" Then, "Do I need to change the analytics layer?" And then, "Do I need to change the workflow?" And then you start seeing new possibilities because it's all more flexible that you can add more features to your application and it's just kind of a virtuous cycle, but it starts with taking that first step to your point of considering migrating your data into the cloud and we're seeing that across all kinds of industries now. I think nobody's holding back anymore. It just takes time, sometimes some are slower and some are faster. >> Well, all apps or data apps and it's interesting, I wrote a blog post in 2017 called, "Data Is The New Developer Kit" meaning it was just like a vision statement around data will be part of how apps, like software, it'll be data as code. And you guys are doing that. You're allowing data to be a key ingredient for interactivity with analytics. This is really important. Can you just give us a use case example of how someone builds an interactive data app with ThoughtSpot Everywhere? >> Yeah, absolutely. So I think there are certain applications that when naturally things relates to data, you know, I talk about bending or those kinds of things. Like when you use it, you just kind of inherently know, "Hey, there's tons of data and then can I get some?" But a lot of times we're seeing, you know, for example, one of our customers is a very small company that provides software for personal trainers and small fitness studios. You know, you would think like, "Oh well, these are small businesses. They don't have a ton of data. A lot of them would probably just run on QuickBooks or Excel and all of that." But they could see the value is kind of, once a personal trainer conducts his business on a cloud software, then he'll realize, "Oh, I don't need to download any more data. I don't need to run Excel anymore, the data is already there in a software." And hey, on top of that, wouldn't it be great if you have an analytics layer that can analyze how your clients paid you, where your appointments are, and so forth? And that's even just for, again like I said, no disrespect to personal trainers, but even for one or two personal trainers, hey, they can be an analytics and they could be an analyst on their business data. >> Yeah, why not? Everyone's got a Fitbits and watches and they could have that built into their studio APIs for the trainers. They can get collaboration. >> That's right. So there's no application you can think that's too simple or you might think too traditional or whatnot for analytics. Every application now can become a very engaging data application. >> Well Victor, it's great to have you on. Obviously, great conversation around ThoughtSpot anywhere. And as someone who runs corp dev for ThoughtSpot, for the folks watching that aren't customers yet for ThoughtSpot, what should they know about you guys as a company that they might not know about or they should know about? And what are people talking about ThoughtsSpot, what are they saying about it? So what should they know that know that's not being talked about or they may not understand? And what are other people saying about ThoughtSpot? >> So a couple of things. One is there's a lot of fun out there. I think about search in general, search is generally a very broad term but I think it, you know, I go back to what I was saying earlier is really what differentiates ThoughtSpot is not just that we have a search bar that's put on some kind of analytics UI. Really, it's the fundamental technical architecture underlying that is from the ground up built for search large data, granular, and detailed exploration of your data. That makes us truly unique and nobody else can really do search if you're not built with a technical foundation. The second thing is, we're very much a cloud first company now, and a ton of our over the past few years because of the growth of these highly performing data warehouses like Snowflake and Redshift, we're able to really focus on what we do best which is the search and the query processing performance on the front end and we're fully engaged with cloud platforms now. So if you have data in the cloud, we are the best analytics front end for that. >> Awesome, well, thanks for coming on. Great the feature you guys here in the "Startup Showcase", great conversation, ThoughtSpot leading company, hot startup. We did their event with them with theCUBE a couple of months ago. Congratulations on all your success. Victor Chang, VP of ThoughtSpot Everywhere and Corporate Development here on theCUBE and "AWS Startup Showcase". Go to awsstartups.com and be part of the community, we're doing these quarterly featuring the hottest startups in the cloud. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. >> Victor: Thank you so much. (bright music)

[Music] welcome back to red hat summit 2021 my name is dave vellante and you're watching the cube where we go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise of course virtually in this case and i'm pleased to welcome victor carumpus who is the senior vice president of digital banking at bank mandiri coming in from jakarta welcome to the cube victor great to see you hi dave great to see you and great to be invited here thank you yeah you're very welcome i i wonder if you could just give us an overview of the bank maybe talk a little bit about your strategy your customers you know what the what the focus is of your company and what your role is there okay uh maybe i'm i'll give a short overview about bang mandir itself so bang money is a state-owned enterprise owned by the government but we also public company currently we already have a very big distribution channel in so uh you know indonesia is an island country it's very huge country so we are we are representing all over indonesia from province of aceh and i'm up to profits of papua and we have about 2600 branches all over indonesia and about uh 15 000 atms all over indonesia so bangladesh itself is focused on a lot of segment customers like indonesia from the corporate side small medium enterprise and also retail banking now uh we are we are currently focused in turning ourselves to become having to have more digital capability and currently in our uh current situations actually it is very good uh about 95 percent of our transactions is already coming from the electronic channel so it's only about five percent that coming from the branches but we know that this is still a journey uh and we are building more digital capability and features and functions on our digital channels to our customer got it um okay and so your your your digital journey kind of coincides i guess in a way with your your your container uh adoption journey uh i think that started a few years ago um and so maybe you could talk a little bit about that i i mean in thinking about modernizing your application portfolio obviously containers been around forever but they weren't packaged in a way that could actually be easily you know utilized and now you're seeing people in i.t roles like yourself really leaning in maybe you could talk about some of the technology considerations that impacted that desire to actually leverage containers i think uh first it's about the scalability because with a monolithic architecture it's kind of difficult to scale up for only specific features by doing container microservices we have options to scale up in a very fast way because one of the features is auto scaling on the container architectures uh one monitor is a very focused on the transaction banking so you might say bangladesh is supporting the economy of the country because in a in any given time in bangladesh we we're running about four thousand transactions per seconds that's a huge transactions number and have having said that uh our channel like i told you already running about 95 percent of the transactions so scalability is always important for us because especially like like now is the the in indonesia is a festive month it's a ramadan month where muslim is actually doing fasting but at the same time actually there's a lot of needs and people do a lot of transactions and on this kind of festive seasons the transition can be increased up to 40 or 50 suddenly and that's kind of things always happen in bangladesh and we must be ready and we must have a scalability on demand now containerization is enabling us to do that other thing is about flexibility because on the old days actually when we want to set up a new environment it's very difficult and takes a lot of time and that's affecting the time to market our products by doing the containerizations and putting it on a ci cd continuous integration called the development plan platform we are we call devsecops platform that kind of things becoming automatic because we set up the devsecos platform and the third one is the consistency actually so by by doing the contact investigations we can put the the apis on our back-end apis in the container itself and actually it's deliverable environment and a consistent experience to our customer because for example we promise our customer that every transaction should be finished within two seconds from their mobile banking up to our hosts and back forward to their mobile banking is only two seconds so that kind of thing is driving us to move to the current technology which we're using containerization and micro services great okay so 4 000 transactions per second you can't can't do that on erc20 ethereum for all you crypto fans out there that's that's pretty high volume uh and if i understand it correctly victor your role is really to envision this digital environment and then ultimately make it happen from a technology standpoint is that correct that's product that's got it yeah so okay so you now have a number of of product lines and teams you're using the same container platform maybe you could share with our audience some of the best practices and learnings that that you've taken away on this journey so i think first of all we can reuse a lot of components by doing this containerization platform is different when we still use the monolithic platform like the application server of java application server uh by using containerization actually uh be providing like a service banking as a service so whenever we build a new channel for example the first one we built a new service for example like a fun transfer service but when we create another channel for example a corporate banking electronic channel or we create another uh let's say wealth management channel whatever we already built before can be reusable instantly by using this technology so uh if i might say that actually there is a lot of best practices coming by using this platform and my team get a lot of benefit in terms of faster development time and also they can deliver the product and service in a high quality manner minimize the number of errors as well you know there's a lot of choices out there obviously i wonder if you could share what led you to the choice of red hat and open shift okay so first of all before we choose the platform actually we also comparing ourselves with the with the fintechs and also with the big tech in indonesia as well so we see we see that actually they already start using kubernetes and uh their platform is quite stable and even they can support about 90 to 100 million of customers without any issues at all so when we see this uh we choose a lot of we learn about a lot of platform and we finally choose opencv because we think that openshift and we we already do our research openshift is quite stable and for banks like us that have for having 4500 transaction per seconds stability is number one uh availability is also number one now uh having said that after doing our research we choose openshift and we implemented openshift in our environment because we promise our customers to provide 99.95 percent uh availability can i just i'm sorry to interrupt you victor can you just repeat that you cut out a little bit so you you said you you promised your customers to deliver and then you cut out a little bit can you just repeat what you just said there okay so we're giving a promise to our to our customer providing a 99.95 availability so this is the starting point of our channel sure in the efficiency we have efficient also to providing four nines which is 99.99 but i mean the starting point is 99.95 and because we have that the demand that requirement that's one of the reason we choose the openshift and red hat as our technology stack platform got it okay and so i have a question um what was it like in terms of just the skills and the adoption uh for your developers uh was it was it a big gap to go from where you were to you know where you are today did you have to what kind of training did you have to do did you have to do any sort of outsourcing to accelerate that maybe you could describe that how you close that skills gap so definitely in the beginning is quite challenging because although they are using modern languages like jaffa or kotlin but uh to understand the concept and to design correctly yes we we did a lot of training to them uh it takes a it takes me about three months to give them the proper training uh in terms of building the right uh microservices platform and also to building modular architecture in terms of the customer channel because this will be the fundamental when you build it correctly in the beginning and actually at the later point you will enjoy the benefit so the first three months actually is training and doing research and development and doing a lot of trial and errors but after the three months actually we already have the right technology stack have the right models and our devsecops is already working then actually after that the speed is very fast because uh it sprints uh we do agile way of working the agiles dlc it's only one month so every one month we already have new features coming in so that's what we call a huge transformation a digital transformation inside of our bank it's three months actually not bad i mean i would i would have thought on average it's going to take five or six months to get people up to speed so three months is pretty good and i'm also inferring that you weren't just paving the cow path you weren't just saying okay let's take our traditional and then you know re refactor it to digital you had to re-envision what digital looked like because the digital is different uh than the traditional uh so so that's actually pretty good uh ramp rate i wonder if you could just go ahead and comment if you could because when you say about uh revamp so actually it's not on the id side not only but also the business side we implement new way as well so actually if clearly they're implementing a new model so they're using a design thinking and also a co-creation model where now when we building a product so we're not writing the old product in a new way no we totally building it from from scratch and involving our key customer and our stakeholder when we're building this product so actually we implementing new models what we call design thinking and also uh co-creation with our customer so that's actually changing the face of the customer electronic channel a lot and and actually when we when we want to to deploy we invite our customer to test it first we call it like usability testing if they like it we continue to design if they they don't like it they give us a feedback how they would like it to be changed and and that's we appreciate our customer feedback because customers experience is everything now yeah so so the product can be accepted if the experience on that product is really making customer uh solving their problem solving the customer problem and making them enjoying uh doing transactions in our mobile banking product i think this is a really important point for people to understand so you weren't just paving the cow path i call it you're taking the old and and just trying to refactor it and make it exactly turn it into digital you had to really think about the business the business processes the dependencies the customer experience and then bring it back um what have been some of the business outcomes of this initiative and maybe you could we then after that we can get into some of the the future plans so so the outcome uh i think this journey uh since last year uh not last year actually since no october 2019 we already started the journey uh what took us by surprise is actually the pandemic uh suddenly the first three months when we have the pandemic of coffee we are being forced to close a lot of branches for temporary because we want to avoid the pandemic situations and that time actually the the demand using our digital channel is increasing a lot but because we already prepared actually we get the benefit one of the thing is uh the business benefit is relating so during the pandemic nobody can come to the branch and mostly the account opening actually happening online so uh we even got about 9000 account opening per day which is something that we are not imagining before so uh the benefit is very clear by using this this technology actually enabling us to provide digital capability for our customer and enabling us to open more accounts we see ourselves can grow even not linear but exponentially grow by using this platform uh talking about that indonesia is a is a huge country with we have about 200 250 million populations and actually there's still a lot of people is not having a bank account at all now by doing this actually we open opportunity doing financial inclusion for those people that need a banking account now they can reach us by using the digital platform as well yeah that's an awesome story and it goes back to the to the reason the real motivator for for moving to kubernetes and containers was scale uh and and you know it's you obviously started your digital journey prior to the pandemic but a lot of customers and i'm sure you as well were were forced to speed up a portion anyway of the digital component uh because of the pandemic like you said you couldn't people couldn't walk into the branches so but now you've got some more time to think about that journey you've had a lot of learnings 2020 was like a petri dish of experimentation but but in real time having to serve customers what's the future look like for the bank's technology journey okay so basically we uh we are not stopping only on the retail side yeah uh we want to redefine our customer journey also on the wholesale side and also on the small medium enterprise there is still a lot of things that need to be done uh and required by the customer actually so uh on the on the on the sme side we want to give them easier access uh for uh financing their businesses i think when we are back to the new normal uh the business need to have funding for for starting their business again so building an sme platform for them will will help a lot and will help the country as well on the retail side actually like i told you uh we are focusing on the more financial inclusion because uh i give you example right uh from the 230 million of indonesians uh populations i think by today maybe it's only about 50 million customers that already have a banking account so there is still a lot of people that need an access faster and cheaper and more efficient way for doing banking transactions so that's this also will become our focus and the last part is actually corporate what we see now a lot of the corporate require us to open uh api connectivity doing open banking with them the government actually the central bank supporting it supporting all the banks they are trying to create an api playbooks now and then they create they want to create an api standard for all the core all the use corporate also can connect it to the bank directly using api so this is also our focus because it will help the country economy when the economy costs the transaction costs getting more efficient getting more cheaper and there's a lot of transaction can be supported by our bank as well so i think i think that's the the future that we are imagining and i'm really hope that the pandemi will be finished and we come back to the to the new normal and we can support more transactions for this country yeah you're here to that i call it the new abnormal but so this is this is a great story everybody loves to talk about disruption we do as well and but people think oh it's out with out with the old in with the new and it's not like that this is a great story victor of uh of an established incumbent that is modernizing its its applications and its digital experience and of course the incumbent has the advantage of it's a real business it has customers that has a data it has experiences it and if it can modernize its infrastructure and and it's in its application portfolio it actually has an advantage because it's got way more features way more data way more customers and more resources so victor thanks so much for coming on thecube i really appreciate you sharing your story thank you dave thank you for inviting me thank you that was our pleasure and thank you for watching red hat summit 21 this is thecube you

(Upbeat music) >> Hi everyone and welcome back to the Cube's coverage of Splunk.conf 2021, virtual. We are here, live in the Splunk studios here in Silicon valley. I'm John Furrier, host of the Cube. Spiros Xanthos VP of product management of observability with Splunk is here inside the cube, Spiros, thanks for coming on. Great to see you. [Spiros Xanthos]- John, thanks for having me glad to be here. >> We love observability. Of course we love Kubernetes, but that was before observability became popular. We've been covering cube-con since it was invented even before, during the OpenStack days, a lot of open source momentum with you guys with observability and also in the customer base. So I want to thank you for coming on. Give us the update. What is the observability story its clearly in the headlines of all the stories SiliconANGLE's headline is multi-cloud observability security Splunk doubling down on all three. >> Correct. >> Big part of the story is observability. >> Correct. And you mentioned CubeCon. I was there last week as well. It seems that those observability and security are the two most common buzzwords you hear these days different from how it was when we started it. But yeah, Splank actually has made the huge investment in observability, starting with the acquisition of Victor ops three years ago, and then with Omnition and Signalfx. And last year with Plumbr synthetics company called Rigor and Flowmill and a network monitoring company. And plus a lot of organic investment we've made over the last two years to essentially build an end-to-end observability platform that brings together metrics, traces, and logs, or otherwise infrastructure monitoring, log analytics, application monitoring. Visual experience monitoring all in one platform to monitor let's say traditional legacy and modern cloud native apps. >> For the folks that know SiliconANGLE, the Cube know we've been really following this from the beginning for signal effects, remember when they started they never changed their course. they've had the right They have the right history and from spot by spot, you guys, same way open source and cloud was poo-pooed upon, people went like, oh, it's not secure, they never were. Now it's the center of all the action. [Spiros Xanthos]- Yes >> And so that's really cool. And thanks for doing that. The other thing I want to get your point on is what does end-to-end observability mean? Because there's a lot of observability companies out there right now saying, Hey, we're the solution We're the utility, we're the tool, but I haven't seen a platform. So what's your answer to that? >> Yes. So observability, in my opinion, in the context of what you're describing means two things. One is that when, when we say internal durability, it means that instead of having, let's say multiple monitoring tools that are silent, let's say one for monitoring network, one for monitoring infrastructure, a separate one for monitoring APM that do not work with each other. We bring all of these telemetry in one place we connect it and exactly because actually applications and infrastructure themselves are becoming one. You have a way to monitor all of it from one place. So that's observability. But the other thing that observability also is because these environments tend to be a lot more complex. It's not just about connecting them, right? It's also about having enough data and enough analytics to be able to make sense out of those environments and solve problems faster than you could do in the past with traditional monitoring. >> That's a great definition. I've got to then ask you one of the things coming up that came out of CoopCon was clear, is that the personnel to hire, to run this stuff, it's not everyone can get the skills gap problem. At the same time, automation is at an all time high people are automating and doing AI ops, get outs. What do you want to call this a buzz word for that basically automating the data observability into the CICB pipeline, huge trend right now. And the speed of developers is fast now. They're coding fast. They don't want to wait. >> I agree. So, and that's exactly what's happening, right? We want essentially from traditional IT where developers would develop something a little bit deployed months later by some IT professional, of course, all of this coming together, But we're not stopping that as you say, right, that the shifting left is going earlier into the pipeline. Everyone expect, essentially let's say monitoring to happen at the speed of deployment. And I guess observability again, is this not, as a requirement. Observability is this idea. Let's say that I should be able to monitor my applications in real time and, you know, get information as soon as something happens. >> With the evolution of the shift left trend. I would say for the people don't know what shift left is you put security the beginning, not bolted on at the end and developers can do it with automation, all that good stuff that they have. But how, how real is that right now in terms of it happening? Can you, can you share some vision and ideas and anecdotal data on how, how fast shift left is, or is there still bottlenecks and security groups and IT groups? >> So there are bottlenecks for sure. In my opinion, we are aware with, let's say the shift left or the dev sec ops trend, whether IT and devs maybe a few years ago. And this is both a cultural evolution that has to happen. So security teams and developers have to come closer together, understand like, say the consensus of the requirements of each other so they can work better together the way it happened with DevOps and all sorts of tooling problem, right? Like still observability or monitoring solutions are not working very well with security yet. We at Splunk of course, make this a priority. And we have the platform to integrate all the data in one place. But I don't think is generally something that we'll have achieved as well as an industry yet. And including the cultural aspects of it. >> Is that why you think end to end is important to hit that piece there so that people feel like it's all working together >> I think end to end is important for two reasons. actually one is that essentially, as you say, you hit all the pieces from the point of deployment, let's say all the way to production, but it's also because I think applications and infrastructure, FMLA infrastructure with Kubernetes, microservices are in traditional so much more complexity that you need to step function improvement in the tooling as well. Right? So that you need keep up with the complexity. So bringing everything together and applying analytics on top is the way essentially to have this step function improvement in how your monitoring solution works so that it can keep up with the complexity of the underlying infrastructure and application. >> That is a huge, huge points Spiros. I got to double down on that with you and say, let's expand that because that's the number one problem, taming the complexity without slowing down. Right? So what is the best practice for that? What do people do? Cause, I mean, I know it's evolving, it's going faster than that, but it's still getting better, but not always there, but what can people do to go faster? >> So, and I will add that it's even more complex than just what the cloud, let's say, native applications introduced because especially large enterprises have to maintain their routine, that on-prem footprint legacy applications that are still in production and then still expand. So it's additive to what they have today, right? If somebody was to start from a clean slate, let's say started with Kubernetes today, maybe yes, we have the cloud native tooling to monitor that, but that's not the reality of most, most enterprises out there. Right? So I think our goal at Splunk at least is to be able to essentially work with our customers through their digital, digital transformation and cloud journey. So to be able to support all their existing applications, but also help them bring those to the cloud and develop new applications in a cloud native fashion, let's say, and we have the tooling, I think, to support all of that, right between let's say our original data platform and our metrics and traces platform that we develop further. >> That's awesome. And then one quick question on the customer side, if I'm a customer, I want observability, I want this, I want everything you just said. How do I tell the difference between a pretender and a player, the good solution and a bad solution? What are the signals that this is the real deal, that's a fake product >> Agreed. So, I mean, everyone obviously believes that original (laughing) I'm not sure if I will. >> You don't want to name names? Here's my, my perspective on what truly is a requirement for absorb-ability right? First of all, I think we have moved past the time where let's say proprietary instrumentation and data collection was a differentiator. In fact, it actually is a problem today, if you are deploying that because it creates silos, right? If I have a proprietary instrumentation approach for my application, that data cannot be connected to my infrastructure or my logs, let's say, right. So that's why we believe open telemetry is the future. And we start there in terms of data collection. Once we standardize, let's say data collection, then the problem moves to analytics. And that's, I think where the future is, right? So observability is not just about collecting a bunch of data and that bring it back to the user. It's about making sense out of this data, right? So the name of the game is analytics and machine learning on top of the data. And of course the more data you can collect, the better it is from that perspective. And of course, then when we're talking about enterprises, scale controls, compliance all of these matter. And I think real time matters a lot as well, right? We cannot be alerting people after minutes of a problem that has happened, but within a few seconds, if we wanted to really be pro-active. >> I think one thing I like to throw out there, maybe get your reaction to it, I think maybe one other thing might be enabling the customer to code on top of it, because I think trying to own the vertical stack as well as is also risky as a vendor to sell to a company, having the ability to add programming ability on top of it. >> I completely agree actually, You do? In general giving more control to the users and how, what do they do with their data, let's say, right? And even allowing them to use open source, whatever is appropriate for them, right? In combination, maybe with a vendor solution when they don't want to invest themselves. >> Build their own apps, build your own experience. That's the way the world works. That's software. >> I agree. And again, Splunk from the beginning was about that, right? Like we'll have thousands of apps built ontop of our platform >> Awesome. Well, I want to talk about open source and the work you're doing with open telemetry. I think that's super important. Again, go back even five, 10 years ago. Oh my God. The cloud's not secure. Oh my God, open source has got security holes. It turns out it's actually the opposite now. So, you know finally through the people woke up. No, but it's gotten better. So take us through the open telemetry and what you guys are doing with that. >> Yes. So first of all, my belief, my personal belief is that if there is no future where infrastructure is anything about open source, right? Because people do not trust actually close our solutions in terms of security. They prefer open source at this point. So I think that's the future. And in that sense, a few years ago, I guess our belief was that all data collection instrumentations with standards based first of all, so that the users have control and second should be open source. That's why we, at Omnition the company I co-founded that was acquired by Splunk. We we're one of the main tenders of open sensors and that we brought together open sensors and OpenTracing in creating open telemetry. And now , Open telemetry is pretty much the de facto. Every vendor supports it, its the second most active project in CNCF. And I think it's the future, right? Both because it frees up the data and breaks up the silos, but also because, has support from all the vendors. It's impossible for any single vendor to keep up with all this complexity and compete with the entire industry when we all come together. So I think it's a great success it's I guess, kudos to everybody, kudos to CNCF as well, that was able to actually create and some others. >> And props to CNCF. Yeah. CNC has done an amazing job and been going to all those events all the years and all the innovations has been phenomenal. I got to ask what the silos, since you brought it up, come multiple times. And again, I think this is important just to kind of put an exclamation point on, machine learning is based upon data. Okay. If you have silos, you have the high risk of having bad machine learning. >> Yes. >> Okay. That's you agree with that? >> Completely. >> So customers, they kind of understand this, right. If you have silos that equals bad future >> Correct >> because machine learning is baked into everything now. >> And I will add to that. So silos is the one problem, and then not being able to have all the data is another problem, right? When it comes to being able to make sense out of it. So we're big believers in what we call full fidelity. So being able to connect every byte of data and do it in a way that makes sense, obviously economically for the customer, but also have, let's say high signal to noise ratio, right? By structuring the data at the source. Overt telemetry is another contributor to that. And by collecting all the data and by having an ability, let's say to connect the data together, metrics, traces, logs, events, incidents, then we can actually build a little more effective tooling on top to provide answers back to the user with high confidence. So then users can start trusting the answers as opposed to they themselves, always having to figure out what the problem is. And I think that's the future. And we're just starting. >> Spiros I want to ask you now, my final question is about culture And you know, when you have scale with the cloud and data, goodness, where you have people actually know the value of data and they incorporate into their application, you have advantages. You have competitive advantages in some cases, but developers were just coding love dev ops because it's infrastructure as code. They don't have to get into the weeds and do the under the hood, datas have that same phenomenon right now where people want access to data. But there's certain departments like security departments and IT groups holding back and slowing down the developers who are waiting days and weeks when they want it in minutes and seconds for have these kinds of things. So the trend is, well there's, first of all, there's the culture of people aren't getting along and they're hating each other or they're not liking each other. >> Yes >> There's a little conflict, always kind of been there, but now more than ever, because why wait? >> I agree. >> How can companies shorten that cycle? Make it more cohesive, still decouple the groups because you've got, you got compliance. How do you maximize the best of a good security group, a good IT group and enables as fast as possible developers. >> I agree with you, by the way, this is primarily cultural. And then of course there is a tooling gap as well. Right. But I think we have to understand, let's say as a security group, instead of developers, what are the needs of each other, right. Why we're doing the things we're doing because everybody has the right intentions to some extent, right? But the truth is there is pain. We are me and myself. Like as we develop our own solutions in a cloud native fashion, we see that right. We want to move as fast as possible, but at the same time, want to be compliant and secure, right. And we cannot compromise actually on security or compliance. I mean, that's really the wrong solution here. So I think we need to come together, understand what each other is trying to do and provide. And actually we need to build better tooling that doesn't get into the way. Today, oftentimes it's painful to have, let's say a compliance solution or a secure solution because it slows down development. I think we need to actually, again, maybe a step function improvement in the type of tooling we'll have in this space. So it doesn't get into the way Right? It does the work it provides. Let's say the security, the security team requires, it provides the guarantees there, but doesn't get in the way of developers. And today it doesn't happen like this most of the time. So we have some ways to go. >> And Garth has mentioning how you guys got some machine learning around different products is one policy kind of give some, you know, open, you know, guardrails for the developers to bounce around and do things until they, until they have to put a new policy in place. Is that an answer automated with automation? >> Big time. Automation is a big part of the answer, right? I think we need to have tooling that first of all works quickly and provides the answers we need. And we'll have to have a way to verify that the answer are in place without slowing down developers.Splunk is, I mean, out of a utility of DevSecOps in particular is around that, right? That we need to do it in a way that doesn't get in the way of, of let's say the developer and the velocity at which they're trying to move, but also at the same time, collect all the data and make sure, you know, we know what's going on in the environment. >> Is AI ops and dev sec ops and GET ops all the same thing in your mind, or is it all just labels >> It's not necessarily the same thing because I think AI ops, in my opinion applies, let's say to even more traditional environments, what are you going to automate? Let's say IT workflows in like legacy applications and infrastructure. Getops in my mind is maybe the equivalent when you're talking about like cloud native solutions, but as a concept, potentially they are very close I guess. >> Well, great stuff. Great insight. Thanks for coming on the Cube. Final point is what's your take this year of the live we're in person, but it's virtual, we're streaming out. It's kind of a hybrid media environment. Splunk's now in the media business with the studios, everything great announcements. What's your takeaway from the keynote this week? What's your, you got to share to the audience, this week's summary. >> First of all, I really hope next year, we're all going to be in one place, but still given the limitations we had I think it was a great production and thanks to everybody who was involved. So my key takeaway is that we truly actually have moved to the data age and data is at the heart of everything we do. Right? And I think Splunk has always been that as a company, but I think we ourselves really embraced that and everything we do is everything. Most of the problems we solve are data problems, whether it's security, observability, DevSecOps, et cetera. So. >> Yeah, and I would say, I would add to that by saying that my observations during the pandemic now we're coming, hopefully to the end of it, you guys have been continuing to ship code and with real, not vaporware real product, the demos were real. And then the success on the open source. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> All right. Thanks for coming on and we appreciate it >> Thanks alot _Cube coverage here at dot com Splunk annual conference. Virtual is the Cube. We're here live at the studios here at Splunk studios for their event. I'm John Farrow with the Cube. Thanks for watching. (joyful tune)

>>Kirk focuses on the approach to modern data quality and how it can enable the continuous delivery of trusted data. Take it away. Kirk >>Trusted data has been a focus of mine for the last several years. Most particularly in the area of machine learning. Uh, I spent much of my career on wall street, writing models and trying to create a healthy data program, sort of the run the bank and protect the franchise and how to do that at scale for larger organizations. Uh, I'm excited to have the opportunity today sitting with me as Victor to have a fireside chat. He is an award-winning and best-selling author of delete big data and most currently framers. He's also a professor of governance at Oxford. So Victor, my question for you today is in an era of data that is always on and always flowing. How does CDOs get comfortable? You know, the, I can sleep at night factor when data is coming in from more angles, it's being stored in different formats and varieties and probably just in larger quantities than ever before. In my opinion, just laws of large numbers with that much data. Is there really just that much more risk of having bad data or inaccuracy in your business? >>Well, thank you Kirk, for having me on. Yes, you're absolutely right. That the real problem, if I were to simplify it down to one statement is that incorrect data and it can lead to wrong decisions that can be incredibly costly and incredibly costly for trust for the brand, for the franchise incredibly costly, because they can lead to decisions that are fundamentally flawed, uh, and therefore lead the business in the wrong direction. And so the, the, the real question is, you know, how can you avoid, uh, incorrect data to produce incorrect insights? And that depends on how you view trust and how you view, uh, data and correctness in the first place. >>Yeah, that's interesting, you know, in my background, we were constantly writing models, you know, we're trying to make the models smarter all the time, and we always wanted to get that accuracy level from 89% to 90%, you know, whatever we could be, but there's this popular theme where over time the models can diminish an accuracy. And the only button we really had at our disposal was to retrain the model, uh, oftentime I'm focused on, should we be stress testing the data, it almost like a patient health exam. Uh, and how do we do that? Where we could get more comfortable thinking about the quality of the data before we're running our models and our analytics. >>Yeah, absolutely. When we look at the machine learning landscape, even the big data landscape, what we see is that a lot of focus is now put on getting the models, right, getting it worked out, getting the kinks worked out, but getting sort of the ethics, right. The value, right. That is in the model. Um, uh, and what is really not looked at what is not focused enough that, um, is the data. Now, if you're looking at it from a compliance viewpoint, maybe it's okay if you just look at the model, maybe not. But if you understand that actually using the right data with the right model gives you a competitive advantage that your competitors don't have, then it is far more than compliance. And if it is far more compliance, then actually the aperture for strategy opens up and you should not just look at models. You should actually look at the data and the quality and correctness of the data as a huge way by which you can push forward your competitive advantage. >>Well, I haven't even trickier one for you. I think, you know, there's so much coming in and there's so much that we know we can measure and there's so much we could replay and do what if analysis on and kind of back tests, but, you know, do you see organizations doing things to look around the corner? And maybe an interesting analogy would be something like with Tesla is doing whether it's sensors or LIDAR, and they're trying to bounce off every object they know, and they can make a lot of measurements, but the advancements in computer vision are saying, I might be able to predict what's around the corner. I might be able to be out ahead of the data error. I'm about to see tomorrow. Um, you know, do you see any organizations trying to take that futuristic step to sort of know the unknown and be more predictive versus reactive? >>Absolutely. Tesla is doing a bit Lincoln, uh, but so are others in that space and not autonomous driving space, um, uh, Waymo, the, uh, the, the, uh, Google company that is, uh, doing autonomous driving for a long period of time where they have been doing is collecting training data, uh, through their cars and then running a machine learning on the training data. Now they hit a wall a couple of years ago because the training data wasn't diverse enough. It didn't have that sort of Moore's law of insight anymore, even though it was more and more training data. Um, and so the, the Delta, the additional learning was just limited. So what they then decided to do was to build a virtual reality called car crafting, which were actually cars would drive around and create, uh, uh, predictive training data. Now, what is really interesting about that is that that is isn't a model. It is a model that creates predictive data. And this predictive is the actual value that is added to the equation here. And with this extra predictive data, they were able to improve their autonomous driving quite significantly. Uh, five years ago, their disengagement was, uh, raped was every, uh, 2000 miles on average. And, uh, last year, uh, five years later, it was every 30,000 miles on average, that's a 15 K improvement. And that wasn't driven by a mysterious model. It was driven by predictive data. >>Right, right. You know, that's interesting. I, I'm also a fan of trying to use data points that don't exist in the data sets. So it sounds like they were using more data data that was derived from other sources. And maybe the most simple format that I usually get started with was, you know, what, if I was looking at data from Glassdoor and I wanted to know if it was valid, if it was accurate, but of course there's going to be numbers in the age, field and salary and years of experience in different things. But what if the years of experience and age and academic level of someone no longer correlates to the salary yet that correlation component is not a piece of data that even lives in the column, the row, the cell. So I do think that there's a huge area for improvement and just advancement in the role data that we see in collect, but also the data science metrics, something like lift and correlation between the data points that really helped me certify and feel comfortable that this data makes sense. Otherwise it could just be numbers in the field >>Indeed. And, and this challenge of, of finding the data and focusing on the right subset of the data and manipulating it, uh, in the right, in a qualitatively right way is really something that has been with us for quite a number of years. There's a fabulous, uh, case, um, a few years back, uh, when, um, in Japan, when there was the suspicion that in Sumo wrestling, there was match fixing going on massive max fiction. Um, and, and so investigators came in and they took the data from the championship bouts and analyzed them and, uh, didn't find anything. And, uh, what was, what was really interesting is then later researchers came in and read the rules and regulations of Sumo wrestling and understood that it's not just the championship bouts that matter, but it's also sometimes the relegation matches that matter. And so then they started looking at those secondary matches that nobody looked at before and that subset of data, and they discovered there's massive match fixing going on. It's just, nobody looked at it because nobody just, as you said, that connection, uh, between th those various data sources or the sort of causal connectivity there. And so it's, it's, it's really crucial to understand, uh, that, uh, driving insight out of data, isn't a black box thing where you feed the data in and get it out. It really requires deep thinking about how to wire it up from the very beginning. >>No, that's an interesting story. I kind of wonder if the model in that case is almost the, the wrestlers themselves or the output, but definitely the, the data that goes into it. Um, yeah. So, I mean, do you see a path where organizations will achieve a hundred percent confidence? Because we all know there's a, I can't sleep at night factor, but there's also a case of what do I do today. It's, I'm probably not living in a perfect world. I might be sailing a boat across an ocean that already has a hole in it. So, you know, we can't turn everything off. We have to sort of patch the boat and sail it at the same time. Um, what do you think the, a good approaches for a large organization to improve their posture? >>You know, if you focus on perfection, you never, you never achieved that perfection a hundred percent perfection or so is never achievable. And if you want some radical change, then that that's admirable. But a lot of times it's very risky. It's a very risky proposition. So rather than doing that, there is a lot of low hanging fruit than that incremental, pragmatic step-by-step approach. If I can use an analogy from history, uh, we, we, we talk a lot about, um, the data revolution and before that, the industrial revolution, and when we think about the industrial revolution, we think about the steam engine, but the reality is that the steam engine, wasn't just one radical invention. In fact, there were a myriad of small incremental invade innovations over the course of a century that today we call the industrial revolution. And I think it's the various same thing when the data revolution where we don't have this one silver bullet that radically puts us into data Nirvana, but it is this incremental, pragmatic step-by-step change. It will get us closer. Um, pragmatic, can you speak in closer to where we want to be, even though there was always more work for us left? >>Yeah, that's interesting. Um, you know, that one hits home for me because we ultimately at Collibra take an incremental approach. We don't think there's a stop the world event. There's, you know, a way to learn from the past trends of our data to become incrementally smarter each day. And this kind of stops us from being in a binary project mode, right. Where we have to wait right. Something for six months and then reassess it and hope, you know, we kind of wonder if you're at 70% accuracy today is being at 71% better tomorrow, right? At least there's a measurable amount of improvement there. Uh, and it's a sort of a philosophical difference. And it reminds me of my banking days. When you say, uh, you know, past performance is no guarantee of future results. And, um, it's a nice disclaimer, you can put in everything, but I actually find it to be more true in data. >>We have all of these large data assets, whether it's terabytes or petabytes, or even if it's just gigabytes sitting there on all the datasets to learn from. And what I find in data is that the past historical values actually do tell us a lot about the future and we can learn from that to become incrementally smarter tomorrow. And there's really a lot of value sitting there in the historical data. And it tells me at least a lot about how to forecast the future. You know, one that's been sitting on the top of my mind recently, especially with COVID and the housing market a long time back, I competed with automation, valuation modeling, which basically means how well can you predict the price of a house? And, you know, that's always a fun one to do. And there's some big name brands out there that do that pretty well. >>Back then when I built those models, I would look at things like the size of the yard, the undulation of the land, uh, you know, whether a pool would award you more or less money for your house. And a lot of those factors were different than they are now. So those models ultimately have already changed. And now that we've seen post COVID people look for different things in housing and the prices have gone up. So we've seen a decline and then a dramatic increase. And then we've also seen things like land and pools become more valuable than they were in the housing model before, you know, what are you seeing here with models and data and how that's going to come together? And it's just, is it always going to change where you're going to have to constantly recalibrate both, you know, our understanding of the data and the models themselves? >>Well, indeed the, the problem of course is almost eternal. Um, oftentimes we have developed beautiful models that work really well. And then we're so wedded to this model or this particular kind of model. And we can fathom to give them up. I mean, if I think of my students, sometimes, you know, they, they, they, they have a model, they collect the data, then they run the analysis and, uh, it basically, uh, tells them that their model was wrong. They go out and they collect more data and more data and more data just to make sure that it isn't there, that, that, that their model is right. But the data tells them what the truth is that the model isn't right anymore that has context and goals and circumstances change the model needs to adapt. And we have seen it over and over again, not just in the housing market, but post COVID and in the COVID crisis, you know, a lot of the epidemiologists looked at life expectancy of people, but when you, when you look at people, uh, in the intensive care unit, uh, with long COVID, uh, suffering, uh, and in ICU and so on, you also need to realize, and many have that rather than life expectancy. >>You also need to look at life quality as a mother, uh, kind of dimension. And that means your model needs to change because you can't just have a model that optimizes on life expectancy anymore. And so what we need to do is to understand that the data and the changes in the data that they NAMIC of the data really is a thorn in our thigh of revisiting the model and thinking very critically about what we can do in order to adjust the model to the present situation. >>But with that, Victor, uh, I've really enjoyed our chat today. And, uh, do you have any final thoughts, comments, questions for me? >>Uh, you know, Kirk, I enjoyed it tremendously as well. Uh, I do think that, uh, that what is important, uh, to understand with data is that as there is no, uh, uh, no silver bullet, uh, and there is only incremental steps forward, this is not actually something to despair, but to give and be the source of great hope, because it means that not just tomorrow, but even the day after tomorrow and the day after the day after tomorrow, we still can make headway can make improvement and get better. >>Absolutely. I like the hopeful message I live every day to, uh, to make data a better place. And it is exciting as we see the advancements in what's possible on what's kind of on the forefront. Um, well with that, I really appreciate the chat and I would encourage anyone. Who's interested in this topic to attend a session later today on modern data quality, where I go through maybe five key flaws of the past and some of the pitfalls, and explain a little bit more about how we're using unsupervised learning to solve for future problems. Thanks Victor. Thank you, Kurt. >>Thanks, Kirk. And Victor, how incredible was that?

>>and hello, we're back. I've got my panel and we are doing things real time here. So sorry for the delay a few minutes late. So the way let's talk about things, the reason we're here and we're going around the room and introduce everybody. Got three special guests here. I got my evil or my john and the normal And we're going to talk about get ops I called it future office just because I want to think about what's the next thing for that at the end, we're gonna talk about what our ideas for what's next for getups, right? Um, because we're all starting to just get into get ups now. But of course a lot of us are always thinking about what's next? What's better? How can we make this thing better? So we're going to take your questions. That's the reason we're here, is to take your questions and answer them. Or at least the best we can for the next hour. And all right, so let's go around the room and introduce yourself. My name is Brett. I am streaming from Brett from that. From Brett. From Virginia Beach in Virginia beach, Virginia, United States. Um, and I talk about things on the internet, I sell courses on you, to me that talk about Docker and kubernetes Ive or introduce yourself. >>How's it going? Everyone, I'm a software engineer at axel Springer, currently based in Berlin and I happen to be Brett Brett's teaching assistant. >>All right, that's right. We're in, we're in our courses together almost every day. Mm john >>hey everyone, my name is john Harris, I used to work at Dhaka um, I now work at VM ware is a star field engineer. Um, so yeah, >>and normal >>awesome by the way, you are streaming from Brett Brett, >>I answered from breath to breath. >>Um I'm normal method. I'm a distinguished engineer with booz allen and I'm also a doctor captain and it's good to see either in person and it's good to see you again john it's been a little while. >>It has the pre covid times, right? You're up here in Seattle. >>Yeah. It feels, it feels like an eternity ago. >>Yeah, john shirt looks red and reminds me of the Austin T shirt. So I was like, yeah, so we all, we all have like this old limited edition doctor on E. >>T. That's a, that's a classic. >>Yeah, I scored that one last year. Sometimes with these old conference church, you have to like go into people's closets. I'm not saying I did that. Um, but you know, you have to go steal stuff, you to find ways to get the swag >>post post covid. If you ever come to my place, I'm going to have to lock the closets. That >>that's right, That's right. >>So the second I think it was the second floor of the doctor HQ in SAn Francisco was where they kept all the T shirts, just boxes and boxes and boxes floor to ceiling. So every time I went to HQ you just you just as many as you can fit in your luggage. I think I have about 10 of these. You >>bring an extra piece of luggage just for your your shirt shirt grab. Um All right, so I'm going to start scanning questions uh so that you don't have to you can you help you all are welcome to do that. And I'm going to start us off with the topic. Um So let's just define the parameters. Like we can talk about anything devops and here we can go down and plenty of rabbit holes. But the kind of, the goal here is to talk about get ups and get ups if you haven't heard about it is essentially uh using versioning systems like get like we've all been getting used to as developers to track your infrastructure changes, not just your code changes and then automate that with a bunch of tooling so that the robots take over. And essentially you have get as a central source of truth and then get log as a central source of history and then there's a bunch of magic little bits in the middle and then supposedly everything is wonderful. It's all automatic. The reality is is what it's often quite messy, quite tricky to get everything working. And uh the edges of this are not perfect. Um so it is a relatively new thing. It's probably three, maybe four years old as an official thing from. We've uh so we're gonna get into it and I'll let's go around the room and the same word we did before and um not to push on that, put you on the spot or anything. But what is, what is one of the things you either like or either hate about getups um that you've enjoyed either using it or you know, whatever for me. I really, I really love that I can point people to a repo that basically is hopefully if they look at the log a tracking, simplistic tracking of what might have changed in that part of the world or the environment. I remember many years past where, you know, I've had executive or some mid level manager wants to see what the changes were or someone outside my team went to see what we just changed. It was okay, they need access to this system into that dashboard and that spreadsheet and then this thing and it was always so complicated and now in a world where if we're using get up orbit bucket or whatever where you can just say, hey go look at that repo if there was three commits today, probably three changes happened. That's I love that particular part about it. Of course it's always more complicated than that. But um Ive or I know you've been getting into this stuff recently. So um any thoughts? Yeah, I think >>my favorite part about get ops is >>reproducibility. Um >>you know the ability to just test something and get it up and running >>and then just tear it down. >>Uh not >>being worried that how did I configure it the first time? I think that's my favorite part about >>it. I'm changing your background as we do this. >>I was going to say, did you just do it get ups pushed to like change his >>background, just a dialogue that different for that green screen equals false? Uh Change the background. Yeah, I mean, um and I mean I think last year was really my first year of actually using it on anything significant, like a real project. Um so I'm still, I still feel like I'm very new to john you anything. >>Yeah, it's weird getups is that thing which kind of crystallizes maybe better than anything else, the grizzled veteran life cycle of emotions with the technology because I think it's easy to get super excited about something new. And when I first looked into get up, so I think this is even before it was probably called getups, we were looking at like how to use guest source of truth, like everything sounds great, right? You're like, wait, get everyone knows, get gets the source of truth, There's a load of robust tooling. This just makes a sense. If everything dies, we can just apply the get again, that would be great. Um and then you go through like the trough of despair, right? We're like, oh no, none of this works. The application is super stateless if this doesn't work and what do we do with secrets and how do we do this? Like how do we get people access in the right place and then you realize everything is terrible again and then everything it equalizes and you're kind of, I think, you know, it sounds great on paper and they were absolutely fantastic things about it, but I think just having that measured approach to it, like it's, you know, I think when you put it best in the beginning where you do a and then there's a magic and then you get C. Right, like it's the magic, which is >>the magic is the mystery, >>right? >>Magic can be good and bad and in text so >>very much so yeah, so um concurrence with with john and ever uh in terms of what I like about it is the potential to apply it to moving security to left and getting closer to a more stable infrastructures code with respect to the whole entire environment. Um And uh and that reconciliation loop, it reminds me of what, what is old is new again? Right? Well, quote unquote old um in terms of like chef and puppet and that the reconciliation loop applied in a in a more uh in a cleaner interface and and into the infrastructure that we're kind of used to already, once you start really digging into kubernetes what I don't like and just this is in concurrence with the other Panelist is it's relatively new. It has um, so it has a learning curve and it's still being, you know, it's a very active um environment and community and that means that things are changing and constantly and there's like new ways and new patterns as people are exploring how to use it. And I think that trough of despair is typically figuring out incrementally what it actually is doing for you and what it's not going to solve for you, right, john, so like that's that trough of despair for a bit and then you realize, okay, this is where it fits potentially in my architecture and like anything, you have to make that trade off and you have to make that decision and accept the trade offs for that. But I think it has a lot of promise for, for compliance and security and all that good stuff. >>Yeah. It's like it's like the potentials, there's still a lot more potential than there is uh reality right now. I think it's like I feel like we're very early days and the idea of especially when you start getting into tooling that doesn't appreciate getups like you're using to get up to and use something else and that tool has no awareness of the concept so it doesn't flow well with all of the things you're trying to do and get um uh things that aren't state based and all that. So this is going to lead me to our first question from Camden asking dumb questions by the way. No dumb questions here. Um How is get apps? Not just another name for C. D. Anybody want to take that as an answer as a question. How is get up is not just another name for C. D. I have things but we can talk about it. I >>feel like we need victor foster kids. Yeah, sure you would have opinions. Yeah, >>I think it's a very yeah. One person replied said it's a very specific it's an opinionated version of cd. That's a great that's a great answer like that. Yeah. >>It's like an implement. Its it's an implementation of deployment if you want it if you want to use it for that. All right. I realize now it's kind of hard in terms of a physical panel and a virtual panel to figure out who on the panel is gonna, you know, ready to jump in to answer a question. But I'll take it. So um I'll um I'll do my best inner victor and say, you know, it's it's an implementation of C. D. And it's it's a choice right? It's one can just still do docker build and darker pushes and doctor pulls and that's fine. Or use other technologies to deploy containers and pods and change your, your kubernetes infrastructure. But get apps is a different implementation, a different method of doing that same thing at the end of the day. Yeah, >>I like it. I like >>it and I think that goes back to your point about, you know, it's kind of early days still, I think to me what I like about getups in that respect is it's nice to see kubernetes become a platform where people are experimenting with different ways of doing things, right? And so I think that encourages like lots of different patterns and overall that's going to be a good thing for the community because then more, you know, and not everything needs to settle in terms of only one way of doing things, but a lot of different ways of doing things helps people fit, you know, the tooling to their needs, or helps fit kubernetes to their needs, etcetera. Yeah, >>um I agree with that, the, so I'm gonna, since we're getting a load of good questions, so um one of the, one of the, one of the, I want to add to that real quick that one of the uh from the, we've people themselves, because I've had some on the show and one of things that I look at it is distinguishing is with continuous deployment tools, I sort of think that it's almost like previous generation and uh continuous deployment tools can be anything like we would consider Jenkins cd, right, if you if you had an association to a server and do a doctor pull and you know, dr up or dr composed up rather, or if it did a cube control apply uh from you know inside an ssh tunnel or something like that was considered considered C. D. Well get ops is much more rigid I think in terms of um you you need to apply, you have a specific repo that's all about your deployments and because of what tool you're using and that one your commit to a specific repo or in a specific branch that repo depends on how you're setting it up. That is what kicks off a workflow. And then secondly there's an understanding of state. So a lot of these tools now I have uh reconciliation where they they look at the cluster and if things are changing they will actually go back and to get and the robots will take over and will commit that. Hey this thing has changed um and you maybe you human didn't change it, something else might have changed it. So I think that's where getups is approaching it, is that ah we we need to we need to consider more than just a couple of commands that be runnin in a script. Like there needs to be more than that for a getups repo to happen anyway, that's just kind of the the take back to take away I took from a previous conversation with some people um >>we've I don't think that lost, its the last piece is really important, right? I think like for me, C d like Ci cd, they're more philosophical ideas, write a set of principles, right? Like getting an idea or a code change to environments promoting it. It's very kind of pipeline driven um and it's very imperative driven, right? Like our existing CD tools are a lot of the ways that people think about Cd, it would be triggered by an event, maybe a code push and then these other things are happening in sequence until they either fail or pass, right? And then we're done. Getups is very much sitting on the, you know, the reconciliation side, it's changing to a pull based model of reconciliation, right? Like it's very declarative, it's just looking at the state and it's automatically pulling changes when they happen, rather than this imperative trigger driven model. That's not to say that there aren't city tools which we're doing pull based or you can do pull based or get ups is doing anything creatively revolutionary here, but I think that's one of the main things that the ideas that are being introduced into those, like existing C kind of tools and pipelines, um certainly the pull based model and the reconciliation model, which, you know, has a lot in common with kubernetes and how those kind of controllers work, but I think that's the key idea. Yeah. >>Um This is a pretty specific one Tory asks, does anyone have opinions about get ops in a mono repo this is like this is getting into religion a little bit. How many repos are too many repose? How um any thoughts on that? Anyone before I rant, >>go >>for it, go for it? >>Yeah. How I'm using it right now in a monitor repo uh So I'm using GIT hub. Right, so you have what? The workflow and then inside a workflow? Yeah, mo file, I'll >>track the >>actual changes to the workflow itself, as well as a folder, which is basically some sort of service in Amman Arepa, so if any of those things changes, it'll trigger the actual pipeline to run. So that's like the simplest thing that I could figure out how to, you know, get it set up using um get hubs, uh workflow path future. Yeah. And it's worked for me for writing, you know? That's Yeah. >>Yeah, the a lot of these things too, like the mono repo discussion will, it's very tool specific. Each tool has various levels of support for branch branching and different repos and subdirectories are are looking at the defense and to see if there's changes in that specific directory. Yeah. Sorry, um john you're going to say something, >>I was just going to say, I've never really done it, but I imagine the same kind of downsides of mono repo to multiple report would exist there. I mean, you've got the blast radius issues, you've got, you know, how big is the mono repo? Do we have to pull does the tool have to pull that or cashier every time it needs to determine def so what is the support for being able to just look at directories versus you know, I think we can get way down into a deeper conversation. Maybe we'll save it for later on in the conversation about what we're doing. Get up, how do we structure our get reposed? We have super granular repo per environment, Perper out reaper, per cluster repo per whatever or do we have directories per environment or branches per environment? How how is everything organized? I think it's you know, it's going to be one of those, there's never one size fits all. I'll give the class of consultant like it depends answer. Right? >>Yeah, for sure. It's very similar to the code struggle because it depends. >>Right? >>Uh Yeah, it's similar to the to the code problem of teams trying to figure out how many repose for their code. Should they micro service, should they? Semi micro service, macro service. Like I mean, you know because too many repose means you're doing a bunch of repo management, a bunch of changes on your local system, you're constantly get pulling all these different things and uh but if you have one big repo then it's it's a it's a huge monolithic thing that you usually have to deal with. Path based issues of tools that only need to look at a specific directory and um yeah, it's a it's a culture, I feel like yeah, like I keep going back to this, it's a culture thing. Does your what is your team prefer? What do you like? What um what's painful for everyone and who's what's the loudest pain that you need to deal with? Is it is it repo management? That's the pain um or is it uh you know, is that that everyone's in one place and it's really hard to keep too many cooks out of the kitchen, which is a mono repo problem, you know? Um How do we handle security? So this is a great one from Tory again. Another great question back to back. And that's the first time we've done that um security as it pertains to get up to anyone who can commit can change the infrastructure. Yes. >>Yes. So the tooling that you have for your GIT repo and the authentication, authorization and permissions that you apply to the GIT repo using a get server like GIT hub or get lab or whatever your flavor of the day is is going to be how security is handled with respect to changes in your get ups configuration repository. So um that is completely specific to your implementation of that or ones implementation of of how they're handling that. Get repositories that the get ups tooling is looking at. To reconcile changes with respect to the permissions of the for lack of better term robot itself. Right? They get up tooling like flux or Argosy. D Um one kid would would create a user or a service account or uh other kind of authentication measures to limit the permissions for that service account that the Gaddafi's tooling needs to be able to read the repose and and send commits etcetera. So that is well within the realm of what you have already for your for your get your get um repo. Yeah. >>Yeah. A related question is from a g what they like about get apps if done nicely for a newbie it's you can get stuff done easily if you what they dislike about it is when you have too many get repose it becomes just too complicated and I agree. Um was making a joke with a team the other week that you know the developer used to just make one commit and they would pass pass it on to a QA team that would then eventually emerging in the master. But they made the commits to these feature branches or whatever. But now they make a commit, they make a pR there for their code then they go make a PR in the helm chart to update the thing to do that and then they go make a PR in the get ups repeal for Argo. And so we talked about that they're probably like four or five P. R. Is just to get their code in the production. But we were talking about the negative of that but the reality was It's just five or 4 or five prs like it wasn't five different systems that had five different methodologies and tooling and that. So I looked at it I was like well yeah that's kind of a pain in the get sense but you're also dealing with one type. It's a repetitive action but it's it's the one thing I don't have to go to five different systems with five different ways of doing it. And once in the web and one's on the client wants a command line that I don't remember. Um Yeah so it's got pros and cons I think when you >>I think when you get to the scale where those kind of issues are a problem then you're probably at the scale where you can afford to invest some time into automation into that. Right? Like what I've when I've seen this in larger customers or larger organizations if there ever at that stage where okay apps are coming up all the time. You know, there's a 10 X 100 X developer to operations folks who may be creating get repose setting up permissions then that stuff gets automated, right? Like, you know, maybe ticket based systems or whatever. Developers say I need a new app. It templates things or more often using the same model, right of reconciliation and operators and the horrific abuse of cogs that we're seeing in the communities community right now. Um You know, developers can create a crd which just says, hey, I'm creating a new app is called app A and then a controller will pick up that app a definition. It will go create a get a repo Programmatically it will add the right definitely will look up and held up the developers and the permissions that need to be able to get to that repo it will create and template automatically some name space and the clusters that it needs in the environments that it needs, depending on, you know, some metadata it might read. So I think, you know, those are definite problems and they're definitely like a teething, growing pain thing. But once you get to that scale, you kind of need to step back and say, well look, we just need to invest in time into the operational aspect of this and automating this pain away, I think. Yeah, >>yeah. And that ultimately ends in Yeah. Custom tooling, which it's hard to avoid it at scale. I mean, there's there's two, there's almost two conversations here, right. There is what I call the Solo admin Solo devops, I bought that domain Solo devops dot com because, you know, whenever I'm talking to dr khan in the real world, it's like I asked people to raise hands, I don't know how we can raise hands here, but I would ask people to raise hands and see how many of you here are. The sole person responsible for deploying the app that your team makes and like a quarter of the room would raise their hand. So I call that solo devops like those, that person can't make all the custom tooling in the world. So they really need dr like solutions where it's opinionated, the workflow is sort of built in and they don't have to wrangle things together with a bunch of glue, you know, in other words bash. Um and so this kind of comes to a conversation uh starting this question from lee he's asking how do you combine get ops with ci cd, especially the continuous bit. How do you avoid having a human uh sort of the complaint the team I was working with has, how do you avoid a human editing and get committing for every single deploy? They've settled on customized templates and a script for routine updates. So as a seed for this conference, this question I'm gonna ask you all uh instead of that specific question cause it's a little open ended. Um Tell me whether you agree with this. I I kind of look at the image, the image artifact because the doctor image or container image in general is an artifact that I I view it that way and that thing going into the registry with the right label or right part of the label. Um That tag rather not the label but the tag that to me is like one of the great demarche points of, we're kind of done with Ci and we're now into the deployment phase and it doesn't necessarily mean the tooling is a clear cut there, but that artifact being shipped in a specific way or promoted as we sometimes say. Um what do you think? Does anyone have opinions on that? I don't even know if that's the right opinion to have so mhm. >>So um I think what you're, what you're getting at is that get ups, models can trigger off of different events um to trigger the reconciliation loop. And one way to do that is if the image, if it notices a image change in the registry, the other is if there's a commit event on a specific rebo and branch and it's up to, you are up to the person that's implementing their get ups model, what event to trigger there, that reconciliation loop off of, You can do both, you can do one or the other. It also depends on the Templeton engine that you're using on top of um on top of kubernetes, such as helm or um you know, the other ones that are out there or if you're not even doing that, then, you know straight. Yeah, mo um so it kind of just depends, but those are the typically the two options one has and a combination of of those to trigger that event. You can also just trigger it manually, right? You can go into the command line and force a a, you know, a really like a scan or a new reconciliation loop to occur. So it kind of just, I don't want to say this, but it depends on what you're trying to do and what makes sense in your pipeline. Right? So if you're if you're set up where you are tag, if you're doing it based off of image tags, then you probably want to use get ups in a way that you're using the image tags. Right. And the pattern that you've established there, if you're not really doing that and you're more around, like, different branches are mapped to different environments, then triggered off of the correct branch. And that's where the permissions also come into play. Where if you don't want someone to touch production and you've got your getups for your production cluster based off of like uh you know, a main branch, then whoever can push a change to that main branch has the authority to push that change to production. Right? So that's your authentication and permissions um system same for the registry itself. Right. So >>Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, anyone else have any thoughts on that? I was about to go to the next topic, >>I was going to say. I think certain tools dictate the approach, like, if you're using Argosy d it's I think I'm correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only way to use it right now is just through image modification. Like, the manifest changes, it looks at a specific directory and anything changes then it will do its thing. And uh Synchronize the cost there with whatever's and get >>Yeah, flux has both. Yeah, and flux has both. So it it kind of depends. I think you can make our go do that too, but uh this is back to what we were saying in the beginning, uh you know, these things are changing, right? So that might be what it is right now in terms of triggering the reconciliation loops and get ups, tooling, but there might be other events in the future that might trigger it, and it's not completely stand alone because you still need you're tooling to do any kind of testing or whatever you have in terms of like the specific pipeline. So oftentimes you're bolting in getups into some other part of broader Cfd solution. That makes sense. Yeah, >>we've got a lot of questions about secrets or people that are asking about secrets. >>So my my tongue and cheek answered the secrets question was, what's the best practices for kubernetes? Secrets? That's the same thing for secrets with good apps? Uh getups is not last time I checked and last time I was running this stuff get ups is not has nothing to do with secrets in that sense. It's just there to get your stuff running on communities. So, um there's probably a really good session on secrets at dr concept. I >>would agree with you, I agree with you. Yeah, I mean, get off stools, I mean every every project of mine handles secrets differently. Uh huh. And I think I'm not sure if it was even when I was talking to but talking to someone recently that I'm very bullish on get up actions, I love get up actions, it's not great for deployments yet, but we do have this new thing and get hub environments, I think it's called. So it allows me at least the store secrets per environment, which it didn't have the concept of that before, which you know, if you if any of you running kubernetes out there, you typically end up when you start running kubernetes, you end up with more than one kubernetes, like you're going to end up with a lot of clusters at some point, at least many multiple, more than two. Um and so if you're trying to store secret somewhere, you do have and there's a discussion happening in chat right now where people are talking about um sealed secrets which if you haven't heard of that, go look that up and just be versed on what sealed secrets is because it's a it's a fantastic concept for how to store secrets in the public. Um I love it because I'm a big P. K. I nerd but um it's not the only way and it doesn't fit all models. So I have clients that use A W. S. Secrets because they're in A W. S. And then they just have to use the kubernetes external secret. But again like like like normal sand, you know, it's that doesn't really affect get ops, get ops is just applying whatever helm charts or jahmal or images that you're, you're you're deploying, get off. It was more about the approach of when the changes happen and whether it's a push or pull model like we're talking about and you know, >>I would say there's a bunch of prerequisites to get ups secrets being one of them because the risk of you putting a secret into your git repo if you haven't figured out your community secrets architecture and start diving into getups is high and removing secrets from get repose is you know, could be its own industry, right. It's >>a thing, >>how do >>I hide this? How do I obscure this commit that's already now on a dozen machines. >>So there are some prerequisites in terms of when you're ready to adopt get up. So I think is the right way of saying the answer to that secrets being one of them. >>I think the secrets was the thing that made me, you know, like two or three years ago made me kind of see the ah ha moment when it came to get ups which, which was that the premier thing that everyone used to say about get up about why it was great. Was its the single source of truth. There's no state anywhere else. You just need to look at git. Um and then secrets may be realized along with a bunch of other things down the line that is not true and will never be true. So as soon as you can lose the dogmatism about everything is going to be and get it's fantastic. As long as you've understood everything is not going to get. There are things which will absolutely never be and get some tools just don't deal with that. They need to earn their own state, especially in communities, some controls on their own state. You know, cuz sealed secrets and and other projects like SOps and I think there are two or three others. That's a great way of dealing with secrets if you want to keep them in get. But you know, projects like vault more kind of like what I would say, production grade secret strategies. Right? And if you're in AWS or a cloud, you're more likely to be using their secrets. Your secret policy is maybe not dictated by you in large organizations might be dictated by CSO or security or Great. Like I think once if you, if you're trying to adopt getups or you're thinking about it, get the dogmatism of get as a single point of truth out of your mind and think about getups more as a philosophy and a set of best practice principles, then you will be in much better stead, >>right? Yeah. >>People are asking more questions in chat like infrastructure as code plus C d essentially get ups or C I rather, um, these are all great questions and a part of the debate, I'm actually just going to throw up on screen. I'm gonna put this in chat, but this is, this is to me the source, Right? So we worked with when they coined the term. We, a lot of us have been trying to get, if we talk about the history for a minute and then tell me if I'm getting this right. Um, a lot of us were trying to automate all these different parts of the puzzle, but a lot of them, they, some things might have been infrastructure as code. Some things weren't, some things were sort of like settings is coded, like you're going to Jenkins and type in secrets and settings or type in a certain thing in the settings of Jenkins and then that it wasn't really in get and so what we was trying to go for was a way to have almost like eventually a two way state understanding where get might change your infrastructure but then your infrastructure might also change and needs to be reflected in the get if the get is trying to be the single source of truth. Um and like you're saying the reality is that you're never gonna have one repo that has all of your infrastructure in it, like you would have to have, you have to have all your terra form, anything else you're spinning up. Right. Um but anyway, I'm gonna put this link in chat. So this guide actually, uh one of things they talk about is what it's not, so it's, it's kind of great to read through the different requirements and like what I was saying well ago um mhm. Having having ci having infrastructure as code and then trying a little bit of continuous deployment out, it's probably a prerequisite. Forget ops so it's hard to just jump into that when you don't already have infrastructure as code because a machine doing stuff on your behalf, it means that you have to have things documented and somewhere and get repo but let me put this in the in the >>chitty chat, I would like to know if the other panelists agree, but I think get apps is a okay. I would say it's a moderate level, it's not a beginner level communities thing, it's like a moderate level advanced, a little bit more advanced level. Um One can start off using it but you definitely have to have some pre recs in place or some understanding of like a pattern in place. Um So what do the other folks think about that opinion? >>I think if you're if you're trying to use get out before, you know what problem you have, you're probably gonna be in trouble. Right. It's like having a solution to it probably don't have yet. Mhm. Right. I mean if if you're just evil or and you're just typing, keep control apply, you're one person right, Get off. It doesn't seem like a big a big jump, like, I mean it doesn't like why would I do that? I'm just, I'm just gonna inside, it's the type of get commit right, I'm typing Q control apply. But I think one of the rules from we've is none of your developers and none of your admins can have cute control access to the cluster because if you can't, if you do have access and you can just apply something, then that's just infrastructure as code. That's just continuous deployment, that's, that's not really get ops um, getups implies that the only way things get into the cluster is through the get up, get automation that you're using with, you know, flux Argo, we haven't talked about, what's the other one that Victor Farsi talks about, by the way people are asking about victor, because victor would love to talk about this stuff, but he's in my next life, so come back in an hour and a half or whatever and victor is going to be talking about sys, admin list with me. Um >>you gotta ask him nothing but get up questions in the next, >>confuse them, confuse them. But anyway, that, that, that's um, it's hard, it's hard to understand and without having tried it, I think conceptually it's a little challenging >>one thing with getups, especially based off the we've works blog post that you just put up on there. It's an opinionated way of doing something. Uh you know, it's an opinionated way of of delivering changes to an environment to your kubernetes environment. So it's opinionated were often not used to seeing things that are very opinionated in this sense, in the in the ecosystem, but get apps is a opinionated thing. It's it's one way of doing it. Um there are ways to change it and like there are options um like what we were talking about in terms of the events that trigger, but the way that it's structured is an opinion opinionated way both from like a tooling perspective, like using get etcetera, but also from a devops cultural perspective, right? Like you were talking about not having anyone access cube control and changing the cluster directly. That's a philosophical opinion that get ups forces you to adopt otherwise. It kind of breaks the model and um I just I want everyone to just understand that. That is very opinion, anything in that sense. Yeah, >>polygamy is another thing. Infrastructure as code. Um someone's mentioning plummy and chat, I just had actually my life show self plug bread that live go there. I'm on Youtube every week. I did the same thing. These these are my friends um and had palami on two weeks ago uh last week, remember uh and it was in the last couple of weeks and we talked about their infrastructure as code solution. Were actually writing code instead of um oh that's an interesting take on uh developer team sort of owning coding the infrastructure through code rather than Yamil as a data language. I don't really have an opinion on it yet because I haven't used it in production or anything in the real real world, but um, I'm not sure how much they are applying trying to go towards the get up stuff. I will do a plug for Solomon hikes. Who has a, the beginning of the day, it's already happened so you can go back and watch it. It's a, it's a, what's it called? Q. Rethinking application delivery with Q. And build kit. So go look this up. This is the found co founder of Dr and former CTO Solomon hikes at the beginning of the day. He has a tool called dagger. I'm not sure why the title of the talk is delivering with Q. And built it, but the tool is showing off in there for an hour is called dagger. And it's, it's an interesting idea on how to apply a lot of this opinionated automated stuff to uh, to deployment and it's get off space and you use Q language. It's a graph language. I watched most of it and it was a really interesting take. I'm excited to see if that takes off and if they try that because it's another way that you can get a little bit more advanced with your you're get deployments and without having to just stick everything in Yemen, which is kind of what we're in today with helm charts and what not. All right. More questions about secrets, I think. I think we're not going to have a whole lot of more, a lot more about secrets basically. Uh put secrets in your cluster to start with and kubernetes in encrypted, you know, thing. And then, you know, as it gets harder, then you have to find another solution when you have five clusters, you don't wanna have to do it five times. That's when you have to go for Walton A W. S secrets and all >>that. Right? I'm gonna post it note. Yeah. Crm into the cluster. Just kidding. >>Yes, there are recordings of this. Yes, they will be later. Uh, because we're that these are all gonna be on youtube later. Um, yeah, detects secrets cushion saying detect secrets or get Guardian are absolute requirements. I think it's in reference to your secrets comment earlier. Um, Camels asking about Cuban is dropping support for Docker that this is not the place to ask for that, but it, it is uh, basically it's a Nonevent Marantz has actually just created that same plug in available in a different repos. So if you want to keep using Docker and kubernetes, you know, you can do it like it's no big deal. Most of us aren't using doctor in our communities anyway, so we're using like container D or whatever is provided to us by our provider. Um yeah, thank you so much for all these comments. These are great people helping each other and chat. I feel like we're just here to make sure the chats available so people can help each other. >>I feel like I want to pick up on something when you mentioned pollux me, I think there's a um we're talking about getups but I think in the original like the origination of that I guess was deploying applications to clusters right, picking up deployment manifest. But I think with the gloomy and I obviously terra form and things have been around a long time, folks are starting to apply this I think I found one earlier which was like um kub stack the Terror Forms get ups framework. Um but also with the advent of things like cluster A. P. I. Um in the Cuban at the space where you can declare actively build the infrastructure for your clusters and build the cluster right? We're not just talking about deploying applications, the cluster A. P. I will talk to a W. S. Spin up, VPc spin up machines, you know, we'll do the same kind of things that terra form does and and those other tools do I think applying getups principles to the infrastructure spin up right, the proper infrastructure as code stuff, constantly applying Terror form um you know, plans and whatever, constantly applying cluster Api resources spinning up stuff in those clouds. That's a super interesting. Um you know, extension of this area, I'd be curious to see if what the folks think about that. >>Yeah, that's why I picked this topic is one of my three. Uh I got I got to pick the topics. I was like the three things that there like the most bleeding edge exciting. Most people haven't, we haven't basically we haven't figured all this out yet. We as an industry, so um it's I think we're gonna see more ideas on it. Um what's the one with the popsicle as the as the icon victor talks about all the time? It's not it's another getups like tool, but it's um it's getups for you use this kubernetes limit and then we have to look it up, >>You're talking about cross plane. >>So >>my >>wife is over here with the sound effects and the first sound effect of the day that she chooses to use is one. >>All right, can we pick it? Let's let's find another question bret >>I'm searching >>so many of them. All right, so uh I think one really quick one is getups only for kubernetes, I think the main to tooling to tools that we're talking about, our Argosy D and flux and they're mostly geared toward kubernetes deployments but there's a, it seems like they're organized in a way that there's a clean abstraction in with respect to the agent that's doing the deployment and the tooling that that can interact with. So I would imagine that in the future and this might be true already right now that get ups could be applied to other types of deployments at some point in the future. But right now it's mostly focused and treats kubernetes as a first class citizen or the tooling on top of kubernetes, let's say something like how as a first class citizen? Yeah, to Brett, >>to me the field, back to you bret the thing I was looking for is cross plane. So that's another tool. Um Victor has been uh sharing a lot about it in Youtube cross plane and that is basically runs inside a kubernetes, but it handles your other infrastructure besides your app. It allows you to like get ops, you're a W. S stuff by using the kubernetes state engine as a, as a way to manage that. And I have not used it yet, but he does some really great demos on Youtube. So people are liking this idea of get off, so they're trying to figure out how do we, how do we manage state? How do we uh because the probably terra form is that, well, there's many problems, but it's always a lot of problems, but in the get outs world it's not quite the right fit yet, It might be, but you still, it's still largely as expected for people to, you know, like type the command, um, and it keeps state locally the ss, clouds and all that. And but the other thing is I'm I'm now realizing that when I saw the demo from Solomon, I'm going back to the Solomon hikes thing. He was using the demo and he was showing it apply deploying something on S three buckets, employing internet wifi and deploying it on google other things beyond kubernetes and saying that it's all getups approach. So I think we're just at the very beginning of seeing because it all started with kubernetes and now there's a swarm one, you can look up swarm, get office and there's a swarm, I can't take the name of it. Swarm sink I think is what's called swarm sink on git hub, which allows you to do swarm based getups like things. And now we're seeing these other tools coming out. They're saying we're going to try to do the get ups concepts, but not for kubernetes specifically and that's I think, you know, infrastructure as code started with certain areas of the world and then now then now we all just assume that you're going to have an infrastructure as code way of doing whatever that is and I think get off is going to have that same approach where pretty soon, you know, we'll have get apps for all the clouds stuff and it won't just be flexor Argo. And then that's the weird thing is will flex and Argo support all those things or will it just be focused on kubernetes apps? You know, community stuff? >>There's also, I think this is what you're alluding to. There is a trend of using um kubernetes and see rDS to provision and control things that are outside of communities like the cloud service providers services as if they were first class entities within kubernetes so that you can use the kubernetes um focus tooling for things that are not communities through the kubernetes interface communities. Yeah, >>yeah, even criticism. >>Yeah, yeah, I'm just going to say that sounds like cross plane. >>Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that's that's uh there were, you know, for the last couple of years, it's been flux and are going back and forth. Um they're like frenemies, you know, and they've been going back and forth with iterating on these ideas of how do we manage this complicated thing? That is many kubernetes clusters? Um because like Argo, I don't know if the flux V two can do this, but Argo can manage multiple clusters now from one cluster, so your, you can manage other clusters, technically external things from a single entity. Um Originally flux couldn't do that, but I'm going to say that V two can, I don't actually >>know. Um I think all that is gonna, I think that's going to consolidate in the future. All right. In terms of like the common feature set, what Iver and john what do you think? >>I mean, I think it's already begun, right, I think haven't, didn't they collaborate on a common engine? I don't know whether it's finished yet, but I think they're working towards a common getups engine and then they're just going to layer on features on top. But I think, I mean, I think that's interesting, right, because where it runs and where it interacts with, if we're talking about a pull based model, it shouldn't, it's decentralized to a certain extent, right? We need get and we need the agent which is pulling if we're saying there's something else which is orchestrating something that we start to like fuzzy the model even right. Like is this state living somewhere else, then I think that's just interesting as well. I thought flux was completely decentralized, but I know you install our go somewhere like the cargo has a server as well, but it's been a while since I've looked in depth at them. But I think the, you know, does that muddy the agent only pull model? >>I'm reading a >>Yeah, I would say that there's like a process of natural selection going on as as the C. N. C. F. Landscape evolves and grows bigger and a lot of divide and conquer right now. But I think as certain things kind of get more prominent >>and popular, I think >>it starts to trend and it inspires other things and then it starts to aggregate and you know, kind of get back into like a unified kind of like core. Maybe like for instance, cross plane, I feel like it shouldn't even really exist. It should be, it like it's a communities add on, but it should be built in, it should be built into kubernetes, like why doesn't this exist already >>for like controlling a cloud? >>Yeah, like just, you know, having this interface with the cloud provider and be able to Yeah, >>exactly. Yeah, and it kinda, you're right. That kinda happens because you do, I mean when you start talking about storage providers and networking providers was very specific implementations of operators or just individual controllers that do operate and control other resources in the cloud, but certainly not universally right. Not every feature of AWS is available to kubernetes out of the box. Um and you know, it, one of the challenges across plane is you gotta have kubernetes before you can deploy kubernetes. Like there's a chicken and egg issue there where if you're going to use, if you're going to use our cross plane for your other infrastructure, but it's gotta, but it has to run on kubernetes who creates that first kubernetes in order for you to put that on there. And victor talks about one of his videos, the same problem with flux and Argo where like Argo, you can't deploy Argo itself with getups. There has to be that initial, I did a thing with, I'm a human and I typed in some commands on a server and things happened but they don't really have an easy deployment method for getting our go up and running using simply nothing but a get push to an existing system. There's something like that. So it's a it's an interesting problem of day one infrastructure which is again only day one, I think data is way more interesting and hard, but um how can we spend these things up if they're all depending on each other and who is the first one to get started? >>I mean it's true of everything though, I mean at the end of that you need some kind of big bang kind of function too, you know, I started running start everything I >>think without going over that, sorry, without going off on a tangent. I was, I was gonna say there's a, if folks have heard of kind which is kubernetes and Docker, which is a mini kubernetes cluster, you can run in a Docker container or each container will run as a as a node. Um you know, that's been a really good way to spin up things like clusters. KPI because they boot strap a local kind, install the manifests, it will go and spin up a fully sized cluster, it will transfer its resources over there and then it will die itself. Right? So that, that's kind of bootstrapping itself. And I think a couple of folks in the community, Jason to Tiberius, I think he works for Quinyx metal um has, has experimented with like an even more minimal just Api server, so we're really just leveraging the kubernetes ideas of like a reconciliation loop and a controller. We just need something to bootstrap with those C R D s and get something going and then go away again. So I think that's gonna be a pattern that comes up kind of more and more >>Yeah, for sure. Um, and uh, the next, next quick answer to the question, Angel asked what your thoughts on getups being a niche to get or versus others vcs tools? Well, if I knew anyone who is using anything other than get, I would say no, you know, get ops is a horrible name. It should just be CVS office, but that doesn't or vcs ops or whatever like that, but that doesn't roll off the tongue. So someone had to come up with the get ups phrase. Um but absolutely, it's all about version control solutions used for infrastructure, not code. Um might get doctor asks a great question, we're not gonna have time for it, but maybe people can reply and chat with what they think but about infrastructure and code, the lines being blurred and that do develop, how much of infrastructure does developer do developers need to know? Essentially, they're having to know all the things. Um so unfortunately we've had way more questions like every panel here today with all the great community, we've got way more questions we can handle in this time. So we're gonna have to wrap it up and say goodbye. Go to the next live panel. I believe the next one is um on developer, developer specific setups that's gonna be peter running that panel. Something about development in containers and I'm sure it's gonna be great. Just like this one. So let's go around the room where can people find you on the internet? I'm at Brett fisher on twitter. That's where you can usually find me most days you are? >>Yeah, I'm on twitter to um, I'll put it in the chat. It's kind of confusing because the TSR seven. >>Okay. Yeah, that's right. You can't just say it. You can also look at the blow of the video and like our faces are there and if you click on them, it tells you our twitter in Arlington and stuff, john >>John Harris 85, pretty much everywhere. Get hub Twitter slack, etc. >>Yeah >>and normal, normal faults or just, you know, living on Youtube live with Brett. >>Yeah, we're all on the twitter so go check us out there and thank you so much for joining. Uh thank you so much to you all for being here. I really appreciate you taking time in your busy schedule to join me for a little chit chat. Um Yes, all the, all the cheers, yes. >>And I think this kid apps loop has been declarative lee reconciled. >>Yeah, there we go. And with that ladies and gentlemen, uh bid you would do, we will see you in the next, next round coming up next with Peter >>bye.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban cloud brought to you by silicon angle. Welcome to the cubes event. Virtual event. Cuban Cloud. I'm John for your host. We're here talking to all the thought leaders getting all the stories around Cloud What's going on this year and next today, Tomorrow and the future. We gotta featured startup here. Jonah Clipper, who is the CEO and founder of Stack Hawks. Developing security software for developers to have them put security baked in from the beginning. Johnny, thanks for coming on and being featured. Start up here is part of our Cuban cloud. Thanks for joining. >>Thanks so much for having me, John. >>So one of our themes this year is obviously Cloud natives gone mainstream. The pandemic has shown that. You know, a lot of things have to be modern. Modern applications, the emerald all they talked about modern applications. Infrastructure is code. Reinvent, um is here. They're talking about the next gen enterprise. Their public cloud. Now you've got hybrid cloud. Now you've got multi cloud. But for developers, you just wanna be building security baked in and they don't care where the infrastructure is. So this is the big trend. Like to get your thoughts on that. But before we jump in, tell us about Stack Hawk What you guys do your founded in 2019. Tell us about your company and what Your mission is >>Awesome. Yeah, our mission is to put application security in the hands of software developers so that they can find and fix upset books before they deployed a production. And we do that through a dynamic application scanning capability. Uh, that's deployable via docker, so engineers can run it locally. They can run it in C I C. D. On every single PR or merge and find bugs in the process of delivering software rather than after it's been production. >>So everyone's talking about shift left, shift left for >>security. What does >>that mean? Uh, these days. And what if some of the hurdles that people are struggling with because all I hear is shift left shift left from, like I mean, what does What does that actually mean? Now, Can you take us through your >>view? Yes, and we use the phrase a lot, and I and I know it can feel a little confusing or overused. Probably. Um, When I think of shift left, I think of that Mobius that we all look at all of the time, Um, and how we deliver and, like, plan, write code, deliver software and then manage it. Monitor it right like that entire Dev ops workflow. And today, when we think about where security lives, it either is a blocker to deploying production. Or most commonly, it lives long after code has been deployed to production. And there's a security team constantly playing catch up, trying to ensure that the development team whose job is to deliver value to their customers quickly, right, deploy as fast as we can, as many great customer facing features, um there, then, looking at it months after software has been deployed and then hurrying and trying to assess where the bugs are. And, um, trying to get that information back to software developers so that they can fix those issues. Shifting left to me means software engineers are finding those bugs as their writing code or in the CIA CD pipeline long before code has been deployed to production. >>And so you guys attack that problem right there so they don't have to ship the code and then come back and fix it again. Or where we forgot what the hell is going on. That point in time some Q 18 gets it. Is that the kind of problem that that's out there? Is that the main pain point? >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean a lot of the way software, specifically software like ours and dynamic applications scanning works is a security team or a pen tester. Maybe, is assessing applications for security vulnerability these, um, veteran prod that's normally where these tools are run and they throw them back over the wall, you know, interrupting sprints and interrupting the developer workflow. So there's a ton of context switching, which is super expensive, and it's very disruptive to the business to not know about those issues before they're in prod. And they're also higher risk issues because they're in fraud s. So you have to be able to see a >>wrong flywheel. Basically, it's like you have a penetration test is okay. I want to do ship this app. Pen test comes back, okay? We gotta fix the bug, interrupts the cycle. They're not coding there in fire drill mode. And then it's a chaotic death spiral at that point, >>right? Or nothing gets done. God, how did >>you What was the vision? How did you get here? What? How did you start? The company's woke up one morning. Seven started a security company. And how did what was the journey? What got you here? >>Sure. Thanks. I've been building software for software engineers since 2010. So the first startup I worked for was very much about making it easy for software engineers to deploy and manage applications super efficiently on any cloud provider. And we did programmatic updates to those applications and could even move them from cloud to cloud. And so that was sort of cutting my teeth and technology and really understanding the developer experience. Then I was a VP of product at a company called Victor Ops. We were purchased by spunk in 2018. But that product was really about empowering software engineers to manage their own code in production. So instead of having a network operations center right who sat in front of screens and was waiting for something to go wrong and would then just end up dialing there, you know, just this middle man trying to dial to find the person who wrote the software so that they can fix it. We made that way more efficient and could just route issues to software engineers. And so that was a very dev ops focused company in terms of, um, improving meantime to know and meantime to resolve by putting up time in the hands of software engineers where it didn't used to live there before it lived in a more traditional operations type of role. But we deploy software way too quickly and way too frequently to production to assume that another human can just sit there and know how to fix it, because the problems aren't repeatable, right? So So I've been living in the space for a long time, and I would go to conferences and people would say, Well, I love for, you know, we have these digital transformation initiatives and I'm in the security team and I don't feel like I'm part of this. I don't know. I don't know how to insert myself in this process. And so I started doing a lot of research about, um, how we can shift this left. And I was actually doing some research about penetration testing at the time, Um, and found just a ton of opportunity, a ton of problems, right that exist with security and how we do it today. So I really think of this company as a Dev Ops first Company, and it just so happens to be that we're taking security, and we're making it, um, just part of the the application testing framework, right? We're testing for security bugs, just like we would test for any other kind of bucks. >>That's an awesome vision of other great great history there. And thanks for sharing that. I think one of the things that I think this ties into that we have been reporting aggressively on is the movement to Dev Stack Up, Dev, Ops Dev SEC Ops. And you know, just doing an interview with the guy who stood up space force and big space conversation and were essentially riffing on the idea that they have to get modern. It's government, but they got to do more commercial. They're using open source. But the key thing was everything. Software defined. And so, as you move into suffer defined, then they say we want security baked in from the beginning and This is the big kind of like sea level conversation. Bake it in from the beginning, but it's not that easy. And this is where I think it's interesting where you start to think, uh, Dev ops for security because security is broken. So this is a huge trend. It sounds easy to say it baked security in whether it's an i o T edge or multi cloud. There's >>a lot >>of work there. What should people understand when they hear that kind of platitude of? I just baked security and it's really easy. It's not. It's not trivial. What's your thoughts on >>that? It isn't trivial. And in my opinion, there aren't a lot of tools on the market that actually make that very easy. You know, there are some you've had sneak on this program and they're doing an excellent job, really speaking to the developer and being part of that modern software delivery workflow. Um, but because a lot of tools were built to run in production, it makes it really difficult to bake them in from the beginning. And so, you know, I think there are several goals here. One is you make the tooling work so that it works for the software engineer and their workflow. And and there's some different values that we have to consider when its foreign engineer versus when it's for a security person, right? Limit the noise, make it as easy as possible. Um, make sure that we only show the most critical things that are worth an engineer. Stopping what they're doing in terms of building business value and going back and fixing that bugs and then create a way to discuss in triage other issues later outside of the development. Workflow. So you really have to have a lot of empathy and understanding for how software is built and how software engineers behave, I think, in order to get this right. So it's not easy. Um, but we're here and other tools air here. Thio support companies in doing that. >>What's the competitive strategy for you guys going forward? Because there's a big sea change. Now I see an inflection point. Obviously, Cove it highlights. It's not the main reason, but Cloud native has proven it's now gone mainstream kubernetes. You're seeing the big movement there. You're seeing scale be a huge issue. Software defined operations are now being discussed. So I think it's It's a simple moment for this kind of solution. How are you guys going to compete? What's what's the winning strategy? How are you guys gonna compete to win? >>Yeah, so there's two pieces to that one is getting the technology right and making sure that it is a product that developers love. And we put a ton of effort into that because when a software engineer says, Hey, I'd love to use the security product, right? CSOs around the world are going to be like, Yes, please. Did a software engineer just ask me, You have the security product. Thank you, Right. We're here to make it so easy for them and get the tech right. And then the other piece, in terms of being competitive, is the business model. There were something like, I don't You would know better than me, but I think the data point I last saw was like 1300 venture backed security companies since 2012 focused on selling to see SOS and Fortune 2000 companies. It is a mess. It's so noisy, nobody can figure out what anybody actually does. What we have done is said no, we're going to take a modern business model approach to security. So you know, it's a SAS platform that makes it super easy for a software engineer or anybody on the team to try and buy the software. So 14 day trial. You don't have to talk to anybody if you don't want Thio Awesome support to make sure that people can get on boarded and with our on boarding flow, we've seen that our customers go from signing up to first successful scan of their platform or whatever app they chose to scan in a knave ridge of about 10 minutes. The fastest is eight, right? So it's about delivering value to our customers really quickly. And there aren't many companies insecurity on the market today. That do that? >>You know, you mentioned pen test earlier. I I hear that word. Nice shit. And, like, pen test penetration test, as it's called, um, Sock reports. I mean, these are things that are kind of like I got to do that again. I know these people are doing things that are gonna be automated, but one of the things that cloud native has proven as be killer app is integrations because when you build a modern app, it has to integrate with someone else. So there you need these kind of pen tests. You gotta have this kind of code review. And as code, um, is part of, say, a purpose built device where it's an I o T. Edge updates have toe happen. So you need mawr automation. You need more scale around both updating software to, ah, purpose built device or for integration. What's your thoughts in reaction to that? Because this is a riel software challenge from a customer standpoint, because there are too many tools out there and every see so that I talk to says, I just want to get rid of half the tools consolidate down around my clouds that I'm working through my environment and b'more developer oriented, not just purchasing stuff. So you have all this going on? What's your reaction to that? You got the you know, the integration and you've got the software updates on purpose built devices. >>Yeah, I mean, we I make a joke a little bit. That security land is like, you know, acronyms. Dio there are so many types of security that you could choose to implement. And they all have a home and different use cases that are certainly valuable toe organizations. Um, what we like to focus on and what we think is interesting and dynamic application scanning is because it's been hard toe automate dynamic application for especially for modern applications. I think a lot of companies have ignored theon pertuan ity Thio really invest in this capability and what's cool about dynamic. And you were mentioning pen testing. Is that because it's actively attacking your app? It when you get a successful test, it's like a It's like a successful negative test. It's that the test executed, which means that bug is present in your code. And so there's a lot less false positives than in other types of scanning or assessment technologies. Not to say there isn't a home for them. There's a lot of we could we could spend a whole hour kind of breaking down all the different types of bugs that the different tools confined. Um, but we think that if you want to get started developer first, you know there's a lot of great technologies. Pick a couple or one right pick stack hawk pick, sneak and just get started and put it in your developer workflow. So integrations are super important. Um, we have integrations with every C I C. D provider, making it easy to scan your code on every merge or release. And then we also have workflow integrations for software engineers associated with where they want to be doing work and how they want to be interrupted or told about an issue. So, you know, we're very early to market, but right out of the gate, we made sure that we had a slack integration so that scans are running. Or as we're finding new things, it's populating in a specific slack channel for those engineers who work on that part of the app and you're a integration right. If we find issues, we can quickly make tickets and route them and make sure that the right people are working on those issues. Eso That's how I think about sort of the integration piece and just getting started. It's like you can't tackle the whole like every accurate, um, at once like pick something that helps you get started and then continue to build out your program, as you have success. >>A lot of these tools can they get in the hands of developers, and then you kind of win their trust by having functionality. Uh, certainly a winning strategy we've seen. You know, Splunk, you mentioned where you worked for Data Dog and very other tools out there just get started easily. If it's good, it will be used. So I love that strategy. Question. I wanna ask you mentioned Dr earlier. Um, they got a real popular environment, but that speaks to the open source area. How do you see the role of open source playing with you guys? Is that gonna be part of your community outreach? Does the feed into the product? Could you share your vision on how stack hawks engaging and playing an open source? >>Yeah, absolutely. Um So when we started this company, my co founders and I, we sat down and said here, What are the problems? Okay, the world doesn't need a better scanner, right? If you walk the floor of, ah, security, uh, conference. It's like our tool finds a million things and someone else is. My tool finds a million and five things. Right, And that's how they're competing on value. It's really about making it easy to use and put in the pipeline. So we decided not to roll. Our own scanner were based on an open source capability called Zap the Set Attack Proxy. Uh, it is the most the world's most downloaded application scanner. And, uh, actually we just hired the founder of Zap to join the Stack Hawk team, and we're really excited to continue to invest in the open source community. There is a ton of opportunity to grow and sort of galvanize that community. And then the work that we do with our customers and the feedback that we get about the bugs we find if there, ah, false positive or this one's commonly risk accepted, we can go back to the community, which were already doing and saying, Hey, ditch this rule, Nobody likes it or we need to improve this test. Um, so it's a really nice relationship that we have, and we are looking forward to continuing to grow that >>great stuff. You guys are hot. Start of love. The software on security angle again def sec. Cox is gonna be It's gonna be really popular. Can you talk about some of the customer success is What's the What's the feedback from customers? Can you share some of the use cases that you guys are participating in where you're winning? You mentioned developers love it and try It can just give us a couple of use cases and examples. >>Yeah. Ah, few things. Um ah, lot of our customers are already selling on the notion. Like before we even went to G A right. They told all of their customers that they scan for security bugs with every single release. So in really critical, uh, industry is like fintech, right. It's really important that their customers trust that they're taking security seriously, which everybody says they dio. But they show it to their customers by saying here, every single deploy I can show you if there were any new security bugs released with that deploy. So that's really awesome. Other things We've heard our, uh, people being able to deploy really quickly thio the Salesforce marketplace, right? Like if they have toe have a scan to prove that that they can sell on Salesforce, they do that really rapidly. Eso all of that's going really well with our customers. >>How would I wanna How would I be a customer if I was interested in, um, using Stack Hawks say we have some software we wanna stand up, and, uh, it's super grade. And so Amazon Microsoft Marketplace Stairs Force They'll have requirements or say I want to do a deal with an integration they don't want. They want to make sure there's no nothing wrong with the code. This seems to be a common use case. How doe I if I was a customer, get involved or just download software? Um, what's the What's the procurement? What's the consumption side of it looked like, >>Yeah, you just go to Stockholm dot com and you create an account. If you'd like to get started that way so you can have a 14 day free trial. We have extremely extensive documentation, so it's really easy to get set up that way. You should have some familiarity. Or grab a software engineer who has familiarity with a couple of things. So one is how to use Docker, right? So Docker is, ah, deployment mechanism for the scanner. We do that so you can run it anywhere that you would like to, and we don't have to do things like pierce firewalls or other protective measures that you've instrumented on your production environment. You just run it, um, wherever you like in your system. So locally, C I c d So docker is an important thing to understand the way we configure our scanner is through a, um, a file. So if you are getting a scan today, either your security team is doing it or you have a pen tester doing it. Um, the whole like getting ready for that engagement takes a lot of time because the people who are running the tests don't know how the software was built. So the way we think about this is, just ask them. So you just fill out a Yamil file with parameters that tell the scanner what to dio tell it how to authenticate and not log out. Um, feed us an A p. I speak if you want, so weaken super efficiently, scan your app and you can be up and running really quickly, and then that's it. You can work with our team at any time if you need help, and then we have a really efficient procurement process >>in my experience some of the pen tests of firms out there, is it? It's like the house keeping seal of approval. You get it once and then you gotta go back again. Software change, new things come in. And it's like, Wait a minute, what's the new pen test? And then you to write a check or engaged to have enough meeting? I mean, this is the problem. I mean, too many meetings. Do you >>guys solve that problem? Do >>you solve that problem? >>We solve a piece of that problem. So I think you know, part of how I talk about our company is this idea that we live in a world where we deploy software every single day. Yet it seems reasonable that once a year or twice a year, we go get a pen test where human runs readily available, open source software on our product and gives us a like, quite literal. Pdf of issues on. It's like this is so intellectually dishonest, like we deploy all of the time. So here's the thing. Pen tests are important and everybody should do them. But that should not be the introduction to these issues that are also easy to automate and find in your system. So the way we think about how we work with pen testers is, um, run, stack hawk or zapped right in an automated fashion on your system, and then give that, give the configuration and give the most recent results to your pen tester and say, Go find the hard stuff. You shouldn't be cutting checks for $30,000 to a pen tester or something that you could easily meet in your flare up. Klein. You could write the checks for finding finding the hard stuff that's much more difficult to automate. >>I totally agree. Final question. Business model Once I get in, is it a service software and services? A monthly fee? How do you guys make money? >>Yep, it is software as a service, it is. A monthly fee were early to market. So I'm not going to pretend that we have perfectly cracked the pricing. Um, but the way that we think about this is this is a team product for software engineers and for, you know, informed constituents, right? You want a product person in the product. You want a security person in the product? Um, and we also want to incent you to scan your APS And the most modern fashion, which is scanning the smallest amount of http that lives in your app, like in a micro services architecture because it makes a lot easier, is easy to isolate the problems where they live and to fix those issues really quickly. So we bundle team and for a UPS and then we scale within, uh, companies as they add more team. So pen users. 10 APS is 3 99 a month. And as you add software engineers and more applications, we scale within your company that way. >>Awesome. So if you're successful, you pay more, but doesn't matter. You already succeeded, and that's the benefit of by As you go Great stuff. Final question. One more thing. Your vision of the future. What are the biggest challenges you see in the next 24 months? Plus beyond, um, that you're trying to attack? That's a preferred future that you see evolving. What's the vision? >>Yeah, you've touched on this a couple of times in this interview with uh being remote, and the way that we need to build software already has been modernizing, and I feel like every company has a digital transformation initiative, but it has toe happen faster. And along with that, we have to figure out how Thio protect and secure these Moderna Gail. The most important thing that we do the hearts and minds of our support engineers and make it really easy for them to use security capabilities and then continue to growth in the organization. And that's not an easy thing tied off. It's easy change, a different way of being security. But I think we have to get their, uh, in order to prepare the security, uh, in these rapidly deployed and developed applications that our customers expect. >>Awesome. Jodi Clippers, CEO and founder of Stack Hawk. Thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thanks for spending the time featured Startup is part of our Cuban cloud. I'm Sean for your host with silicon angle to Cube. Thanks for watching

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube covering >>space and cybersecurity. Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly >>Over On Welcome to this Special virtual conference. The Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 put on by Cal Poly with support from the Cube. I'm John for your host and master of ceremonies. Got a great topic today in this session. Really? The intersection of space and cybersecurity. This topic and this conversation is the cybersecurity workforce development through public and private partnerships. And we've got a great lineup. We have Jeff Armstrong's the president of California Polytechnic State University, also known as Cal Poly Jeffrey. Thanks for jumping on and Bang. Go ahead. The second director of C four s R Division. And he's joining us from the office of the Under Secretary of Defense for the acquisition Sustainment Department of Defense, D O D. And, of course, Steve Jake's executive director, founder, National Security Space Association and managing partner at Bello's. Gentlemen, thank you for joining me for this session. We got an hour conversation. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you. >>So we got a virtual event here. We've got an hour, have a great conversation and love for you guys do? In opening statement on how you see the development through public and private partnerships around cybersecurity in space, Jeff will start with you. >>Well, thanks very much, John. It's great to be on with all of you. Uh, on behalf Cal Poly Welcome, everyone. Educating the workforce of tomorrow is our mission to Cal Poly. Whether that means traditional undergraduates, master students are increasingly mid career professionals looking toe up, skill or re skill. Our signature pedagogy is learn by doing, which means that our graduates arrive at employers ready Day one with practical skills and experience. We have long thought of ourselves is lucky to be on California's beautiful central Coast. But in recent years, as we have developed closer relationships with Vandenberg Air Force Base, hopefully the future permanent headquarters of the United States Space Command with Vandenberg and other regional partners, we have discovered that our location is even more advantages than we thought. We're just 50 miles away from Vandenberg, a little closer than u C. Santa Barbara, and the base represents the southern border of what we have come to think of as the central coast region. Cal Poly and Vandenberg Air force base have partner to support regional economic development to encourage the development of a commercial spaceport toe advocate for the space Command headquarters coming to Vandenberg and other ventures. These partnerships have been possible because because both parties stand to benefit Vandenberg by securing new streams of revenue, workforce and local supply chain and Cal Poly by helping to grow local jobs for graduates, internship opportunities for students, and research and entrepreneurship opportunities for faculty and staff. Crucially, what's good for Vandenberg Air Force Base and for Cal Poly is also good for the Central Coast and the US, creating new head of household jobs, infrastructure and opportunity. Our goal is that these new jobs bring more diversity and sustainability for the region. This regional economic development has taken on a life of its own, spawning a new nonprofit called Reach, which coordinates development efforts from Vandenberg Air Force Base in the South to camp to Camp Roberts in the North. Another factor that is facilitated our relationship with Vandenberg Air Force Base is that we have some of the same friends. For example, Northrop Grumman has has long been an important defense contractor, an important partner to Cal poly funding scholarships and facilities that have allowed us to stay current with technology in it to attract highly qualified students for whom Cal Poly's costs would otherwise be prohibitive. For almost 20 years north of grimness funded scholarships for Cal Poly students this year, their funding 64 scholarships, some directly in our College of Engineering and most through our Cal Poly Scholars program, Cal Poly Scholars, a support both incoming freshman is transfer students. These air especially important because it allows us to provide additional support and opportunities to a group of students who are mostly first generation, low income and underrepresented and who otherwise might not choose to attend Cal Poly. They also allow us to recruit from partner high schools with large populations of underrepresented minority students, including the Fortune High School in Elk Grove, which we developed a deep and lasting connection. We know that the best work is done by balanced teams that include multiple and diverse perspectives. These scholarships help us achieve that goal, and I'm sure you know Northrop Grumman was recently awarded a very large contract to modernized the U. S. I. C B M Armory with some of the work being done at Vandenberg Air Force Base, thus supporting the local economy and protecting protecting our efforts in space requires partnerships in the digital realm. How Polly is partnered with many private companies, such as AWS. Our partnerships with Amazon Web services has enabled us to train our students with next generation cloud engineering skills, in part through our jointly created digital transformation hub. Another partnership example is among Cal Poly's California Cybersecurity Institute, College of Engineering and the California National Guard. This partnership is focused on preparing a cyber ready workforce by providing faculty and students with a hands on research and learning environment, side by side with military, law enforcement professionals and cyber experts. We also have a long standing partnership with PG and E, most recently focused on workforce development and redevelopment. Many of our graduates do indeed go on to careers in aerospace and defense industry as a rough approximation. More than 4500 Cal Poly graduates list aerospace and defense as their employment sector on linked in, and it's not just our engineers and computer sciences. When I was speaking to our fellow Panelists not too long ago, >>are >>speaking to bang, we learned that Rachel sins, one of our liberal arts arts majors, is working in his office. So shout out to you, Rachel. And then finally, of course, some of our graduates sword extraordinary heights such as Commander Victor Glover, who will be heading to the International space station later this year as I close. All of which is to say that we're deeply committed the workforce, development and redevelopment that we understand the value of public private partnerships and that were eager to find new ways in which to benefit everyone from this further cooperation. So we're committed to the region, the state in the nation and our past efforts in space, cybersecurity and links to our partners at as I indicated, aerospace industry and governmental partners provides a unique position for us to move forward in the interface of space and cybersecurity. Thank you so much, John. >>President, I'm sure thank you very much for the comments and congratulations to Cal Poly for being on the forefront of innovation and really taking a unique progressive. You and wanna tip your hat to you guys over there. Thank you very much for those comments. Appreciate it. Bahng. Department of Defense. Exciting you gotta defend the nation spaces Global. Your opening statement. >>Yes, sir. Thanks, John. Appreciate that day. Thank you, everybody. I'm honored to be this panel along with President Armstrong, Cal Poly in my long longtime friend and colleague Steve Jakes of the National Security Space Association, to discuss a very important topic of cybersecurity workforce development, as President Armstrong alluded to, I'll tell you both of these organizations, Cal Poly and the N S. A have done and continue to do an exceptional job at finding talent, recruiting them in training current and future leaders and technical professionals that we vitally need for our nation's growing space programs. A swell Asare collective National security Earlier today, during Session three high, along with my colleague Chris Hansen discussed space, cyber Security and how the space domain is changing the landscape of future conflicts. I discussed the rapid emergence of commercial space with the proliferations of hundreds, if not thousands, of satellites providing a variety of services, including communications allowing for global Internet connectivity. S one example within the O. D. We continue to look at how we can leverage this opportunity. I'll tell you one of the enabling technologies eyes the use of small satellites, which are inherently cheaper and perhaps more flexible than the traditional bigger systems that we have historically used unemployed for the U. D. Certainly not lost on Me is the fact that Cal Poly Pioneer Cube SATs 2020 some years ago, and they set the standard for the use of these systems today. So they saw the valiant benefit gained way ahead of everybody else, it seems, and Cal Poly's focus on training and education is commendable. I especially impressed by the efforts of another of Steve's I colleague, current CEO Mr Bill Britain, with his high energy push to attract the next generation of innovators. Uh, earlier this year, I had planned on participating in this year's Cyber Innovation Challenge. In June works Cal Poly host California Mill and high school students and challenge them with situations to test their cyber knowledge. I tell you, I wish I had that kind of opportunity when I was a kid. Unfortunately, the pandemic change the plan. Why I truly look forward. Thio feature events such as these Thio participating. Now I want to recognize my good friend Steve Jakes, whom I've known for perhaps too long of a time here over two decades or so, who was in acknowledge space expert and personally, I truly applaud him for having the foresight of years back to form the National Security Space Association to help the entire space enterprise navigate through not only technology but Polly policy issues and challenges and paved the way for operational izing space. Space is our newest horrifying domain. That's not a secret anymore. Uh, and while it is a unique area, it shares a lot of common traits with the other domains such as land, air and sea, obviously all of strategically important to the defense of the United States. In conflict they will need to be. They will all be contested and therefore they all need to be defended. One domain alone will not win future conflicts in a joint operation. We must succeed. All to defending space is critical as critical is defending our other operational domains. Funny space is no longer the sanctuary available only to the government. Increasingly, as I discussed in the previous session, commercial space is taking the lead a lot of different areas, including R and D, A so called new space, so cyber security threat is even more demanding and even more challenging. Three US considers and federal access to and freedom to operate in space vital to advancing security, economic prosperity, prosperity and scientific knowledge of the country. That's making cyberspace an inseparable component. America's financial, social government and political life. We stood up US Space force ah, year ago or so as the newest military service is like the other services. Its mission is to organize, train and equip space forces in order to protect us and allied interest in space and to provide space capabilities to the joint force. Imagine combining that US space force with the U. S. Cyber Command to unify the direction of space and cyberspace operation strengthened U D capabilities and integrate and bolster d o d cyber experience. Now, of course, to enable all of this requires had trained and professional cadre of cyber security experts, combining a good mix of policy as well as high technical skill set much like we're seeing in stem, we need to attract more people to this growing field. Now the D. O. D. Is recognized the importance of the cybersecurity workforce, and we have implemented policies to encourage his growth Back in 2013 the deputy secretary of defense signed the D. O d cyberspace workforce strategy to create a comprehensive, well equipped cyber security team to respond to national security concerns. Now this strategy also created a program that encourages collaboration between the D. O. D and private sector employees. We call this the Cyber Information Technology Exchange program or site up. It's an exchange programs, which is very interesting, in which a private sector employees can naturally work for the D. O. D. In a cyber security position that spans across multiple mission critical areas are important to the d. O. D. A key responsibility of cybersecurity community is military leaders on the related threats and cyber security actions we need to have to defeat these threats. We talk about rapid that position, agile business processes and practices to speed up innovation. Likewise, cybersecurity must keep up with this challenge to cyber security. Needs to be right there with the challenges and changes, and this requires exceptional personnel. We need to attract talent investing the people now to grow a robust cybersecurity, workforce, streets, future. I look forward to the panel discussion, John. Thank you. >>Thank you so much bomb for those comments and you know, new challenges and new opportunities and new possibilities and free freedom Operating space. Critical. Thank you for those comments. Looking forward. Toa chatting further. Steve Jakes, executive director of N. S. S. A Europe opening statement. >>Thank you, John. And echoing bangs thanks to Cal Poly for pulling these this important event together and frankly, for allowing the National Security Space Association be a part of it. Likewise, we on behalf the association delighted and honored Thio be on this panel with President Armstrong along with my friend and colleague Bonneau Glue Mahad Something for you all to know about Bomb. He spent the 1st 20 years of his career in the Air Force doing space programs. He then went into industry for several years and then came back into government to serve. Very few people do that. So bang on behalf of the space community, we thank you for your long life long devotion to service to our nation. We really appreciate that and I also echo a bang shot out to that guy Bill Britain, who has been a long time co conspirator of ours for a long time and you're doing great work there in the cyber program at Cal Poly Bill, keep it up. But professor arms trying to keep a close eye on him. Uh, I would like to offer a little extra context to the great comments made by by President Armstrong and bahng. Uh, in our view, the timing of this conference really could not be any better. Um, we all recently reflected again on that tragic 9 11 surprise attack on our homeland. And it's an appropriate time, we think, to take pause while the percentage of you in the audience here weren't even born or babies then For the most of us, it still feels like yesterday. And moreover, a tragedy like 9 11 has taught us a lot to include to be more vigilant, always keep our collective eyes and ears open to include those quote eyes and ears from space, making sure nothing like this ever happens again. So this conference is a key aspect. Protecting our nation requires we work in a cybersecurity environment at all times. But, you know, the fascinating thing about space systems is we can't see him. No, sir, We see Space launches man there's nothing more invigorating than that. But after launch, they become invisible. So what are they really doing up there? What are they doing to enable our quality of life in the United States and in the world? Well, to illustrate, I'd like to paraphrase elements of an article in Forbes magazine by Bonds and my good friend Chuck Beans. Chuck. It's a space guy, actually had Bonds job a fuse in the Pentagon. He is now chairman and chief strategy officer at York Space Systems, and in his spare time he's chairman of the small satellites. Chuck speaks in words that everyone can understand. So I'd like to give you some of his words out of his article. Uh, they're afraid somewhat. So these are Chuck's words. Let's talk about average Joe and playing Jane. Before heading to the airport for a business trip to New York City, Joe checks the weather forecast informed by Noah's weather satellites to see what pack for the trip. He then calls an uber that space app. Everybody uses it matches riders with drivers via GPS to take into the airport, So Joe has lunch of the airport. Unbeknownst to him, his organic lunch is made with the help of precision farming made possible through optimized irrigation and fertilization, with remote spectral sensing coming from space and GPS on the plane, the pilot navigates around weather, aided by GPS and nose weather satellites. And Joe makes his meeting on time to join his New York colleagues in a video call with a key customer in Singapore made possible by telecommunication satellites. Around to his next meeting, Joe receives notice changing the location of the meeting to another to the other side of town. So he calmly tells Syria to adjust the destination, and his satellite guided Google maps redirects him to the new location. That evening, Joe watches the news broadcast via satellite. The report details a meeting among world leaders discussing the developing crisis in Syria. As it turns out, various forms of quote remotely sensed. Information collected from satellites indicate that yet another band, chemical weapon, may have been used on its own people. Before going to bed, Joe decides to call his parents and congratulate them for their wedding anniversary as they cruise across the Atlantic, made possible again by communications satellites and Joe's parents can enjoy the call without even wondering how it happened the next morning. Back home, Joe's wife, Jane, is involved in a car accident. Her vehicle skids off the road. She's knocked unconscious, but because of her satellite equipped on star system, the crash is detected immediately and first responders show up on the scene. In time, Joe receives the news books. An early trip home sends flowers to his wife as he orders another uber to the airport. Over that 24 hours, Joe and Jane used space system applications for nearly every part of their day. Imagine the consequences if at any point they were somehow denied these services, whether they be by natural causes or a foreign hostility. And each of these satellite applications used in this case were initially developed for military purposes and continue to be, but also have remarkable application on our way of life. Just many people just don't know that. So, ladies and gentlemen, now you know, thanks to chuck beans, well, the United States has a proud heritage being the world's leading space faring nation, dating back to the Eisenhower and Kennedy years. Today we have mature and robust systems operating from space, providing overhead reconnaissance to quote, wash and listen, provide missile warning, communications, positioning, navigation and timing from our GPS system. Much of what you heard in Lieutenant General J. T. Thompson earlier speech. These systems are not only integral to our national security, but also our also to our quality of life is Chuck told us. We simply no longer could live without these systems as a nation and for that matter, as a world. But over the years, adversary like adversaries like China, Russia and other countries have come to realize the value of space systems and are aggressively playing ketchup while also pursuing capabilities that will challenge our systems. As many of you know, in 2000 and seven, China demonstrated it's a set system by actually shooting down is one of its own satellites and has been aggressively developing counter space systems to disrupt hours. So in a heavily congested space environment, our systems are now being contested like never before and will continue to bay well as Bond mentioned, the United States has responded to these changing threats. In addition to adding ways to protect our system, the administration and in Congress recently created the United States Space Force and the operational you United States Space Command, the latter of which you heard President Armstrong and other Californians hope is going to be located. Vandenberg Air Force Base Combined with our intelligence community today, we have focused military and civilian leadership now in space. And that's a very, very good thing. Commence, really. On the industry side, we did create the National Security Space Association devoted solely to supporting the national security Space Enterprise. We're based here in the D C area, but we have arms and legs across the country, and we are loaded with extraordinary talent. In scores of Forman, former government executives, So S s a is joined at the hip with our government customers to serve and to support. We're busy with a multitude of activities underway ranging from a number of thought provoking policy. Papers are recurring space time Webcast supporting Congress's Space Power Caucus and other main serious efforts. Check us out at NSS. A space dot org's One of our strategic priorities in central to today's events is to actively promote and nurture the workforce development. Just like cow calling. We will work with our U. S. Government customers, industry leaders and academia to attract and recruit students to join the space world, whether in government or industry and two assistant mentoring and training as their careers. Progress on that point, we're delighted. Be delighted to be working with Cal Poly as we hopefully will undertake a new pilot program with him very soon. So students stay tuned something I can tell you Space is really cool. While our nation's satellite systems are technical and complex, our nation's government and industry work force is highly diverse, with a combination of engineers, physicists, method and mathematicians, but also with a large non technical expertise as well. Think about how government gets things thes systems designed, manufactured, launching into orbit and operating. They do this via contracts with our aerospace industry, requiring talents across the board from cost estimating cost analysis, budgeting, procurement, legal and many other support. Tasker Integral to the mission. Many thousands of people work in the space workforce tens of billions of dollars every year. This is really cool stuff, no matter what your education background, a great career to be part of. When summary as bang had mentioned Aziz, well, there is a great deal of exciting challenges ahead we will see a new renaissance in space in the years ahead, and in some cases it's already begun. Billionaires like Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Sir Richard Richard Branson are in the game, stimulating new ideas in business models, other private investors and start up companies. Space companies are now coming in from all angles. The exponential advancement of technology and microelectronics now allows the potential for a plethora of small SAT systems to possibly replace older satellites the size of a Greyhound bus. It's getting better by the day and central to this conference, cybersecurity is paramount to our nation's critical infrastructure in space. So once again, thanks very much, and I look forward to the further conversation. >>Steve, thank you very much. Space is cool. It's relevant. But it's important, as you pointed out, and you're awesome story about how it impacts our life every day. So I really appreciate that great story. I'm glad you took the time Thio share that you forgot the part about the drone coming over in the crime scene and, you know, mapping it out for you. But that would add that to the story later. Great stuff. My first question is let's get into the conversations because I think this is super important. President Armstrong like you to talk about some of the points that was teased out by Bang and Steve. One in particular is the comment around how military research was important in developing all these capabilities, which is impacting all of our lives. Through that story. It was the military research that has enabled a generation and generation of value for consumers. This is kind of this workforce conversation. There are opportunities now with with research and grants, and this is, ah, funding of innovation that it's highly accelerate. It's happening very quickly. Can you comment on how research and the partnerships to get that funding into the universities is critical? >>Yeah, I really appreciate that And appreciate the comments of my colleagues on it really boils down to me to partnerships, public private partnerships. You mentioned Northrop Grumman, but we have partnerships with Lockie Martin, Boeing, Raytheon Space six JPL, also member of organization called Business Higher Education Forum, which brings together university presidents and CEOs of companies. There's been focused on cybersecurity and data science, and I hope that we can spill into cybersecurity in space but those partnerships in the past have really brought a lot forward at Cal Poly Aziz mentioned we've been involved with Cube set. Uh, we've have some secure work and we want to plan to do more of that in the future. Uh, those partnerships are essential not only for getting the r and d done, but also the students, the faculty, whether masters or undergraduate, can be involved with that work. Uh, they get that real life experience, whether it's on campus or virtually now during Covic or at the location with the partner, whether it may be governmental or our industry. Uh, and then they're even better equipped, uh, to hit the ground running. And of course, we'd love to see even more of our students graduate with clearance so that they could do some of that a secure work as well. So these partnerships are absolutely critical, and it's also in the context of trying to bring the best and the brightest and all demographics of California and the US into this field, uh, to really be successful. So these partnerships are essential, and our goal is to grow them just like I know other colleagues and C. S u and the U C are planning to dio, >>you know, just as my age I've seen I grew up in the eighties, in college and during that systems generation and that the generation before me, they really kind of pioneered the space that spawned the computer revolution. I mean, you look at these key inflection points in our lives. They were really funded through these kinds of real deep research. Bond talk about that because, you know, we're living in an age of cloud. And Bezos was mentioned. Elon Musk. Sir Richard Branson. You got new ideas coming in from the outside. You have an accelerated clock now on terms of the innovation cycles, and so you got to react differently. You guys have programs to go outside >>of >>the Defense Department. How important is this? Because the workforce that air in schools and our folks re skilling are out there and you've been on both sides of the table. So share your thoughts. >>No, thanks, John. Thanks for the opportunity responded. And that's what you hit on the notes back in the eighties, R and D in space especially, was dominated by my government funding. Uh, contracts and so on. But things have changed. As Steve pointed out, A lot of these commercial entities funded by billionaires are coming out of the woodwork funding R and D. So they're taking the lead. So what we can do within the deal, the in government is truly take advantage of the work they've done on. Uh, since they're they're, you know, paving the way to new new approaches and new way of doing things. And I think we can We could certainly learn from that. And leverage off of that saves us money from an R and D standpoint while benefiting from from the product that they deliver, you know, within the O D Talking about workforce development Way have prioritized we have policies now to attract and retain talent. We need I I had the folks do some research and and looks like from a cybersecurity workforce standpoint. A recent study done, I think, last year in 2019 found that the cybersecurity workforce gap in the U. S. Is nearing half a million people, even though it is a growing industry. So the pipeline needs to be strengthened off getting people through, you know, starting young and through college, like assess a professor Armstrong indicated, because we're gonna need them to be in place. Uh, you know, in a period of about maybe a decade or so, Uh, on top of that, of course, is the continuing issue we have with the gap with with stamps students, we can't afford not to have expertise in place to support all the things we're doing within the with the not only deal with the but the commercial side as well. Thank you. >>How's the gap? Get? Get filled. I mean, this is the this is again. You got cybersecurity. I mean, with space. It's a whole another kind of surface area, if you will, in early surface area. But it is. It is an I o t. Device if you think about it. But it does have the same challenges. That's kind of current and and progressive with cybersecurity. Where's the gap Get filled, Steve Or President Armstrong? I mean, how do you solve the problem and address this gap in the workforce? What is some solutions and what approaches do we need to put in place? >>Steve, go ahead. I'll follow up. >>Okay. Thanks. I'll let you correct. May, uh, it's a really good question, and it's the way I would. The way I would approach it is to focus on it holistically and to acknowledge it up front. And it comes with our teaching, etcetera across the board and from from an industry perspective, I mean, we see it. We've gotta have secure systems with everything we do and promoting this and getting students at early ages and mentoring them and throwing internships at them. Eyes is so paramount to the whole the whole cycle, and and that's kind of and it really takes focused attention. And we continue to use the word focus from an NSS, a perspective. We know the challenges that are out there. There are such talented people in the workforce on the government side, but not nearly enough of them. And likewise on industry side. We could use Maura's well, but when you get down to it, you know we can connect dots. You know that the the aspect That's a Professor Armstrong talked about earlier toe where you continue to work partnerships as much as you possibly can. We hope to be a part of that. That network at that ecosystem the will of taking common objectives and working together to kind of make these things happen and to bring the power not just of one or two companies, but our our entire membership to help out >>President >>Trump. Yeah, I would. I would also add it again. It's back to partnerships that I talked about earlier. One of our partners is high schools and schools fortune Margaret Fortune, who worked in a couple of, uh, administrations in California across party lines and education. Their fifth graders all visit Cal Poly and visit our learned by doing lab and you, you've got to get students interested in stem at a early age. We also need the partnerships, the scholarships, the financial aid so the students can graduate with minimal to no debt to really hit the ground running. And that's exacerbated and really stress. Now, with this covert induced recession, California supports higher education at a higher rate than most states in the nation. But that is that has dropped this year or reasons. We all understand, uh, due to Kobe, and so our partnerships, our creativity on making sure that we help those that need the most help financially uh, that's really key, because the gaps air huge eyes. My colleagues indicated, you know, half of half a million jobs and you need to look at the the students that are in the pipeline. We've got to enhance that. Uh, it's the in the placement rates are amazing. Once the students get to a place like Cal Poly or some of our other amazing CSU and UC campuses, uh, placement rates are like 94%. >>Many of our >>engineers, they have jobs lined up a year before they graduate. So it's just gonna take key partnerships working together. Uh, and that continued partnership with government, local, of course, our state of CSU on partners like we have here today, both Stephen Bang So partnerships the thing >>e could add, you know, the collaboration with universities one that we, uh, put a lot of emphasis, and it may not be well known fact, but as an example of national security agencies, uh, National Centers of Academic Excellence in Cyber, the Fast works with over 270 colleges and universities across the United States to educate its 45 future cyber first responders as an example, so that Zatz vibrant and healthy and something that we ought Teoh Teik, banjo >>off. Well, I got the brain trust here on this topic. I want to get your thoughts on this one point. I'd like to define what is a public private partnership because the theme that's coming out of the symposium is the script has been flipped. It's a modern error. Things air accelerated get you got security. So you get all these things kind of happen is a modern approach and you're seeing a digital transformation play out all over the world in business. Andi in the public sector. So >>what is what >>is a modern public private partnership? What does it look like today? Because people are learning differently, Covert has pointed out, which was that we're seeing right now. How people the progressions of knowledge and learning truth. It's all changing. How do you guys view the modern version of public private partnership and some some examples and improve points? Can you can you guys share that? We'll start with the Professor Armstrong. >>Yeah. A zai indicated earlier. We've had on guy could give other examples, but Northup Grumman, uh, they helped us with cyber lab. Many years ago. That is maintained, uh, directly the software, the connection outside its its own unit so that students can learn the hack, they can learn to penetrate defenses, and I know that that has already had some considerations of space. But that's a benefit to both parties. So a good public private partnership has benefits to both entities. Uh, in the common factor for universities with a lot of these partnerships is the is the talent, the talent that is, that is needed, what we've been working on for years of the, you know, that undergraduate or master's or PhD programs. But now it's also spilling into Skilling and re Skilling. As you know, Jobs. Uh, you know, folks were in jobs today that didn't exist two years, three years, five years ago. But it also spills into other aspects that can expand even mawr. We're very fortunate. We have land, there's opportunities. We have one tech part project. We're expanding our tech park. I think we'll see opportunities for that, and it'll it'll be adjusted thio, due to the virtual world that we're all learning more and more about it, which we were in before Cove it. But I also think that that person to person is going to be important. Um, I wanna make sure that I'm driving across the bridge. Or or that that satellites being launched by the engineer that's had at least some in person training, uh, to do that and that experience, especially as a first time freshman coming on a campus, getting that experience expanding and as adult. And we're gonna need those public private partnerships in order to continue to fund those at a level that is at the excellence we need for these stem and engineering fields. >>It's interesting People in technology can work together in these partnerships in a new way. Bank Steve Reaction Thio the modern version of what a public, successful private partnership looks like. >>If I could jump in John, I think, you know, historically, Dodi's has have had, ah, high bar thio, uh, to overcome, if you will, in terms of getting rapid pulling in your company. This is the fault, if you will and not rely heavily in are the usual suspects of vendors and like and I think the deal is done a good job over the last couple of years off trying to reduce the burden on working with us. You know, the Air Force. I think they're pioneering this idea around pitch days where companies come in, do a two hour pitch and immediately notified of a wooden award without having to wait a long time. Thio get feedback on on the quality of the product and so on. So I think we're trying to do our best. Thio strengthen that partnership with companies outside the main group of people that we typically use. >>Steve, any reaction? Comment to add? >>Yeah, I would add a couple of these air. Very excellent thoughts. Uh, it zits about taking a little gamble by coming out of your comfort zone. You know, the world that Bond and Bond lives in and I used to live in in the past has been quite structured. It's really about we know what the threat is. We need to go fix it, will design it says we go make it happen, we'll fly it. Um, life is so much more complicated than that. And so it's it's really to me. I mean, you take you take an example of the pitch days of bond talks about I think I think taking a gamble by attempting to just do a lot of pilot programs, uh, work the trust factor between government folks and the industry folks in academia. Because we are all in this together in a lot of ways, for example. I mean, we just sent the paper to the White House of their requests about, you know, what would we do from a workforce development perspective? And we hope Thio embellish on this over time once the the initiative matures. But we have a piece of it, for example, is the thing we call clear for success getting back Thio Uh, President Armstrong's comments at the collegiate level. You know, high, high, high quality folks are in high demand. So why don't we put together a program they grabbed kids in their their underclass years identifies folks that are interested in doing something like this. Get them scholarships. Um, um, I have a job waiting for them that their contract ID for before they graduate, and when they graduate, they walk with S C I clearance. We believe that could be done so, and that's an example of ways in which the public private partnerships can happen to where you now have a talented kid ready to go on Day one. We think those kind of things can happen. It just gets back down to being focused on specific initiatives, give them giving them a chance and run as many pilot programs as you can like these days. >>That's a great point, E. President. >>I just want to jump in and echo both the bank and Steve's comments. But Steve, that you know your point of, you know, our graduates. We consider them ready Day one. Well, they need to be ready Day one and ready to go secure. We totally support that and and love to follow up offline with you on that. That's that's exciting, uh, and needed very much needed mawr of it. Some of it's happening, but way certainly have been thinking a lot about that and making some plans, >>and that's a great example of good Segway. My next question. This kind of reimagining sees work flows, eyes kind of breaking down the old the old way and bringing in kind of a new way accelerated all kind of new things. There are creative ways to address this workforce issue, and this is the next topic. How can we employ new creative solutions? Because, let's face it, you know, it's not the days of get your engineering degree and and go interview for a job and then get slotted in and get the intern. You know the programs you get you particularly through the system. This is this is multiple disciplines. Cybersecurity points at that. You could be smart and math and have, ah, degree in anthropology and even the best cyber talents on the planet. So this is a new new world. What are some creative approaches that >>you know, we're >>in the workforce >>is quite good, John. One of the things I think that za challenge to us is you know, we got somehow we got me working for with the government, sexy, right? The part of the challenge we have is attracting the right right level of skill sets and personnel. But, you know, we're competing oftentimes with the commercial side, the gaming industry as examples of a big deal. And those are the same talents. We need to support a lot of programs we have in the U. D. So somehow we have to do a better job to Steve's point off, making the work within the U. D within the government something that they would be interested early on. So I tracked him early. I kind of talked about Cal Poly's, uh, challenge program that they were gonna have in June inviting high school kid. We're excited about the whole idea of space and cyber security, and so on those air something. So I think we have to do it. Continue to do what were the course the next several years. >>Awesome. Any other creative approaches that you guys see working or might be on idea, or just a kind of stoked the ideation out their internship. So obviously internships are known, but like there's gotta be new ways. >>I think you can take what Steve was talking about earlier getting students in high school, uh, and aligning them sometimes. Uh, that intern first internship, not just between the freshman sophomore year, but before they inter cal poly per se. And they're they're involved s So I think that's, uh, absolutely key. Getting them involved many other ways. Um, we have an example of of up Skilling a redeveloped work redevelopment here in the Central Coast. PG and e Diablo nuclear plant as going to decommission in around 2020 24. And so we have a ongoing partnership toe work on reposition those employees for for the future. So that's, you know, engineering and beyond. Uh, but think about that just in the manner that you were talking about. So the up skilling and re Skilling uh, on I think that's where you know, we were talking about that Purdue University. Other California universities have been dealing with online programs before cove it and now with co vid uh, so many more faculty or were pushed into that area. There's going to be much more going and talk about workforce development and up Skilling and Re Skilling The amount of training and education of our faculty across the country, uh, in in virtual, uh, and delivery has been huge. So there's always a silver linings in the cloud. >>I want to get your guys thoughts on one final question as we in the in the segment. And we've seen on the commercial side with cloud computing on these highly accelerated environments where you know, SAS business model subscription. That's on the business side. But >>one of The >>things that's clear in this trend is technology, and people work together and technology augments the people components. So I'd love to get your thoughts as we look at the world now we're living in co vid um, Cal Poly. You guys have remote learning Right now. It's a infancy. It's a whole new disruption, if you will, but also an opportunity to enable new ways to collaborate, Right? So if you look at people and technology, can you guys share your view and vision on how communities can be developed? How these digital technologies and people can work together faster to get to the truth or make a discovery higher to build the workforce? These air opportunities? How do you guys view this new digital transformation? >>Well, I think there's there's a huge opportunities and just what we're doing with this symposium. We're filming this on one day, and it's going to stream live, and then the three of us, the four of us, can participate and chat with participants while it's going on. That's amazing. And I appreciate you, John, you bringing that to this this symposium, I think there's more and more that we can do from a Cal poly perspective with our pedagogy. So you know, linked to learn by doing in person will always be important to us. But we see virtual. We see partnerships like this can expand and enhance our ability and minimize the in person time, decrease the time to degree enhanced graduation rate, eliminate opportunity gaps or students that don't have the same advantages. S so I think the technological aspect of this is tremendous. Then on the up Skilling and Re Skilling, where employees air all over, they can be reached virtually then maybe they come to a location or really advanced technology allows them to get hands on virtually, or they come to that location and get it in a hybrid format. Eso I'm I'm very excited about the future and what we can do, and it's gonna be different with every university with every partnership. It's one. Size does not fit all. >>It's so many possibilities. Bond. I could almost imagine a social network that has a verified, you know, secure clearance. I can jump in, have a little cloak of secrecy and collaborate with the d o. D. Possibly in the future. But >>these are the >>kind of kind of crazy ideas that are needed. Are your thoughts on this whole digital transformation cross policy? >>I think technology is gonna be revolutionary here, John. You know, we're focusing lately on what we call digital engineering to quicken the pace off, delivering capability to warfighter. As an example, I think a I machine language all that's gonna have a major play and how we operate in the future. We're embracing five G technologies writing ability Thio zero latency or I o t More automation off the supply chain. That sort of thing, I think, uh, the future ahead of us is is very encouraging. Thing is gonna do a lot for for national defense on certainly the security of the country. >>Steve, your final thoughts. Space systems are systems, and they're connected to other systems that are connected to people. Your thoughts on this digital transformation opportunity >>Such a great question in such a fun, great challenge ahead of us. Um echoing are my colleague's sentiments. I would add to it. You know, a lot of this has I think we should do some focusing on campaigning so that people can feel comfortable to include the Congress to do things a little bit differently. Um, you know, we're not attuned to doing things fast. Uh, but the dramatic You know, the way technology is just going like crazy right now. I think it ties back Thio hoping Thio, convince some of our senior leaders on what I call both sides of the Potomac River that it's worth taking these gamble. We do need to take some of these things very way. And I'm very confident, confident and excited and comfortable. They're just gonna be a great time ahead and all for the better. >>You know, e talk about D. C. Because I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not a political person, but I always say less lawyers, more techies in Congress and Senate. So I was getting job when I say that. Sorry. Presidential. Go ahead. >>Yeah, I know. Just one other point. Uh, and and Steve's alluded to this in bonded as well. I mean, we've got to be less risk averse in these partnerships. That doesn't mean reckless, but we have to be less risk averse. And I would also I have a zoo. You talk about technology. I have to reflect on something that happened in, uh, you both talked a bit about Bill Britton and his impact on Cal Poly and what we're doing. But we were faced a few years ago of replacing a traditional data a data warehouse, data storage data center, and we partner with a W S. And thank goodness we had that in progress on it enhanced our bandwidth on our campus before Cove. It hit on with this partnership with the digital transformation hub. So there is a great example where, uh, we we had that going. That's not something we could have started. Oh, covitz hit. Let's flip that switch. And so we have to be proactive on. We also have thio not be risk averse and do some things differently. Eyes that that is really salvage the experience for for students. Right now, as things are flowing, well, we only have about 12% of our courses in person. Uh, those essential courses, uh, and just grateful for those partnerships that have talked about today. >>Yeah, and it's a shining example of how being agile, continuous operations, these air themes that expand into space and the next workforce needs to be built. Gentlemen, thank you. very much for sharing your insights. I know. Bang, You're gonna go into the defense side of space and your other sessions. Thank you, gentlemen, for your time for great session. Appreciate it. >>Thank you. Thank you. >>Thank you. >>Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all. >>I'm John Furry with the Cube here in Palo Alto, California Covering and hosting with Cal Poly The Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020. Thanks for watching.

>>don't talk mhm, >>Okay, thing is my presentation on coherent nonlinear dynamics and combinatorial optimization. This is going to be a talk to introduce an approach we're taking to the analysis of the performance of coherent using machines. So let me start with a brief introduction to easing optimization. The easing model represents a set of interacting magnetic moments or spins the total energy given by the expression shown at the bottom left of this slide. Here, the signal variables are meditate binary values. The Matrix element J. I. J. Represents the interaction, strength and signed between any pair of spins. I. J and A Chive represents a possible local magnetic field acting on each thing. The easing ground state problem is to find an assignment of binary spin values that achieves the lowest possible value of total energy. And an instance of the easing problem is specified by giving numerical values for the Matrix J in Vector H. Although the easy model originates in physics, we understand the ground state problem to correspond to what would be called quadratic binary optimization in the field of operations research and in fact, in terms of computational complexity theory, it could be established that the easing ground state problem is np complete. Qualitatively speaking, this makes the easing problem a representative sort of hard optimization problem, for which it is expected that the runtime required by any computational algorithm to find exact solutions should, as anatomically scale exponentially with the number of spends and for worst case instances at each end. Of course, there's no reason to believe that the problem instances that actually arrives in practical optimization scenarios are going to be worst case instances. And it's also not generally the case in practical optimization scenarios that we demand absolute optimum solutions. Usually we're more interested in just getting the best solution we can within an affordable cost, where costs may be measured in terms of time, service fees and or energy required for a computation. This focuses great interest on so called heuristic algorithms for the easing problem in other NP complete problems which generally get very good but not guaranteed optimum solutions and run much faster than algorithms that are designed to find absolute Optima. To get some feeling for present day numbers, we can consider the famous traveling salesman problem for which extensive compilations of benchmarking data may be found online. A recent study found that the best known TSP solver required median run times across the Library of Problem instances That scaled is a very steep route exponential for end up to approximately 4500. This gives some indication of the change in runtime scaling for generic as opposed the worst case problem instances. Some of the instances considered in this study were taken from a public library of T SPS derived from real world Veil aside design data. This feels I TSP Library includes instances within ranging from 131 to 744,710 instances from this library with end between 6880 13,584 were first solved just a few years ago in 2017 requiring days of run time and a 48 core to King hurts cluster, while instances with and greater than or equal to 14,233 remain unsolved exactly by any means. Approximate solutions, however, have been found by heuristic methods for all instances in the VLS i TSP library with, for example, a solution within 0.14% of a no lower bound, having been discovered, for instance, with an equal 19,289 requiring approximately two days of run time on a single core of 2.4 gigahertz. Now, if we simple mindedly extrapolate the root exponential scaling from the study up to an equal 4500, we might expect that an exact solver would require something more like a year of run time on the 48 core cluster used for the N equals 13,580 for instance, which shows how much a very small concession on the quality of the solution makes it possible to tackle much larger instances with much lower cost. At the extreme end, the largest TSP ever solved exactly has an equal 85,900. This is an instance derived from 19 eighties VLSI design, and it's required 136 CPU. Years of computation normalized to a single cord, 2.4 gigahertz. But the 24 larger so called world TSP benchmark instance within equals 1,904,711 has been solved approximately within ophthalmology. Gap bounded below 0.474%. Coming back to the general. Practical concerns have applied optimization. We may note that a recent meta study analyzed the performance of no fewer than 37 heuristic algorithms for Max cut and quadratic pioneer optimization problems and found the performance sort and found that different heuristics work best for different problem instances selected from a large scale heterogeneous test bed with some evidence but cryptic structure in terms of what types of problem instances were best solved by any given heuristic. Indeed, their their reasons to believe that these results from Mexico and quadratic binary optimization reflected general principle of performance complementarity among heuristic optimization algorithms in the practice of solving heart optimization problems there. The cerise is a critical pre processing issue of trying to guess which of a number of available good heuristic algorithms should be chosen to tackle a given problem. Instance, assuming that any one of them would incur high costs to run on a large problem, instances incidence, making an astute choice of heuristic is a crucial part of maximizing overall performance. Unfortunately, we still have very little conceptual insight about what makes a specific problem instance, good or bad for any given heuristic optimization algorithm. This has certainly been pinpointed by researchers in the field is a circumstance that must be addressed. So adding this all up, we see that a critical frontier for cutting edge academic research involves both the development of novel heuristic algorithms that deliver better performance, with lower cost on classes of problem instances that are underserved by existing approaches, as well as fundamental research to provide deep conceptual insight into what makes a given problem in, since easy or hard for such algorithms. In fact, these days, as we talk about the end of Moore's law and speculate about a so called second quantum revolution, it's natural to talk not only about novel algorithms for conventional CPUs but also about highly customized special purpose hardware architectures on which we may run entirely unconventional algorithms for combinatorial optimization such as easing problem. So against that backdrop, I'd like to use my remaining time to introduce our work on analysis of coherent using machine architectures and associate ID optimization algorithms. These machines, in general, are a novel class of information processing architectures for solving combinatorial optimization problems by embedding them in the dynamics of analog, physical or cyber physical systems, in contrast to both MAWR traditional engineering approaches that build using machines using conventional electron ICS and more radical proposals that would require large scale quantum entanglement. The emerging paradigm of coherent easing machines leverages coherent nonlinear dynamics in photonic or Opto electronic platforms to enable near term construction of large scale prototypes that leverage post Simoes information dynamics, the general structure of of current CM systems has shown in the figure on the right. The role of the easing spins is played by a train of optical pulses circulating around a fiber optical storage ring. A beam splitter inserted in the ring is used to periodically sample the amplitude of every optical pulse, and the measurement results are continually read into a refugee A, which uses them to compute perturbations to be applied to each pulse by a synchronized optical injections. These perturbations, air engineered to implement the spin, spin coupling and local magnetic field terms of the easing Hamiltonian, corresponding to a linear part of the CME Dynamics, a synchronously pumped parametric amplifier denoted here as PPL and Wave Guide adds a crucial nonlinear component to the CIA and Dynamics as well. In the basic CM algorithm, the pump power starts very low and has gradually increased at low pump powers. The amplitude of the easing spin pulses behaviors continuous, complex variables. Who Israel parts which can be positive or negative, play the role of play the role of soft or perhaps mean field spins once the pump, our crosses the threshold for parametric self oscillation. In the optical fiber ring, however, the attitudes of the easing spin pulses become effectively Qantas ized into binary values while the pump power is being ramped up. The F P J subsystem continuously applies its measurement based feedback. Implementation of the using Hamiltonian terms, the interplay of the linear rised using dynamics implemented by the F P G A and the threshold conversation dynamics provided by the sink pumped Parametric amplifier result in the final state of the optical optical pulse amplitude at the end of the pump ramp that could be read as a binary strain, giving a proposed solution of the easing ground state problem. This method of solving easing problem seems quite different from a conventional algorithm that runs entirely on a digital computer as a crucial aspect of the computation is performed physically by the analog, continuous, coherent, nonlinear dynamics of the optical degrees of freedom. In our efforts to analyze CIA and performance, we have therefore turned to the tools of dynamical systems theory, namely, a study of modifications, the evolution of critical points and apologies of hetero clinic orbits and basins of attraction. We conjecture that such analysis can provide fundamental insight into what makes certain optimization instances hard or easy for coherent using machines and hope that our approach can lead to both improvements of the course, the AM algorithm and a pre processing rubric for rapidly assessing the CME suitability of new instances. Okay, to provide a bit of intuition about how this all works, it may help to consider the threshold dynamics of just one or two optical parametric oscillators in the CME architecture just described. We can think of each of the pulse time slots circulating around the fiber ring, as are presenting an independent Opio. We can think of a single Opio degree of freedom as a single, resonant optical node that experiences linear dissipation, do toe out coupling loss and gain in a pump. Nonlinear crystal has shown in the diagram on the upper left of this slide as the pump power is increased from zero. As in the CME algorithm, the non linear game is initially to low toe overcome linear dissipation, and the Opio field remains in a near vacuum state at a critical threshold. Value gain. Equal participation in the Popeo undergoes a sort of lazing transition, and the study states of the OPIO above this threshold are essentially coherent states. There are actually two possible values of the Opio career in amplitude and any given above threshold pump power which are equal in magnitude but opposite in phase when the OPI across the special diet basically chooses one of the two possible phases randomly, resulting in the generation of a single bit of information. If we consider to uncoupled, Opio has shown in the upper right diagram pumped it exactly the same power at all times. Then, as the pump power has increased through threshold, each Opio will independently choose the phase and thus to random bits are generated for any number of uncoupled. Oppose the threshold power per opio is unchanged from the single Opio case. Now, however, consider a scenario in which the two appeals air, coupled to each other by a mutual injection of their out coupled fields has shown in the diagram on the lower right. One can imagine that depending on the sign of the coupling parameter Alfa, when one Opio is lazing, it will inject a perturbation into the other that may interfere either constructively or destructively, with the feel that it is trying to generate by its own lazing process. As a result, when came easily showed that for Alfa positive, there's an effective ferro magnetic coupling between the two Opio fields and their collective oscillation threshold is lowered from that of the independent Opio case. But on Lee for the two collective oscillation modes in which the two Opio phases are the same for Alfa Negative, the collective oscillation threshold is lowered on Lee for the configurations in which the Opio phases air opposite. So then, looking at how Alfa is related to the J. I. J matrix of the easing spin coupling Hamiltonian, it follows that we could use this simplistic to a p o. C. I am to solve the ground state problem of a fair magnetic or anti ferro magnetic ankles to easing model simply by increasing the pump power from zero and observing what phase relation occurs as the two appeals first start delays. Clearly, we can imagine generalizing this story toe larger, and however the story doesn't stay is clean and simple for all larger problem instances. And to find a more complicated example, we only need to go to n equals four for some choices of J J for n equals, for the story remains simple. Like the n equals two case. The figure on the upper left of this slide shows the energy of various critical points for a non frustrated and equals, for instance, in which the first bifurcated critical point that is the one that I forget to the lowest pump value a. Uh, this first bifurcated critical point flows as symptomatically into the lowest energy easing solution and the figure on the upper right. However, the first bifurcated critical point flows to a very good but sub optimal minimum at large pump power. The global minimum is actually given by a distinct critical critical point that first appears at a higher pump power and is not automatically connected to the origin. The basic C am algorithm is thus not able to find this global minimum. Such non ideal behaviors needs to become more confident. Larger end for the n equals 20 instance, showing the lower plots where the lower right plot is just a zoom into a region of the lower left lot. It can be seen that the global minimum corresponds to a critical point that first appears out of pump parameter, a around 0.16 at some distance from the idiomatic trajectory of the origin. That's curious to note that in both of these small and examples, however, the critical point corresponding to the global minimum appears relatively close to the idiomatic projector of the origin as compared to the most of the other local minima that appear. We're currently working to characterize the face portrait topology between the global minimum in the antibiotic trajectory of the origin, taking clues as to how the basic C am algorithm could be generalized to search for non idiomatic trajectories that jump to the global minimum during the pump ramp. Of course, n equals 20 is still too small to be of interest for practical optimization applications. But the advantage of beginning with the study of small instances is that we're able reliably to determine their global minima and to see how they relate to the 80 about trajectory of the origin in the basic C am algorithm. In the smaller and limit, we can also analyze fully quantum mechanical models of Syrian dynamics. But that's a topic for future talks. Um, existing large scale prototypes are pushing into the range of in equals 10 to the 4 10 to 5 to six. So our ultimate objective in theoretical analysis really has to be to try to say something about CIA and dynamics and regime of much larger in our initial approach to characterizing CIA and behavior in the large in regime relies on the use of random matrix theory, and this connects to prior research on spin classes, SK models and the tap equations etcetera. At present, we're focusing on statistical characterization of the CIA ingredient descent landscape, including the evolution of critical points in their Eigen value spectra. As the pump power is gradually increased. We're investigating, for example, whether there could be some way to exploit differences in the relative stability of the global minimum versus other local minima. We're also working to understand the deleterious or potentially beneficial effects of non ideologies, such as a symmetry in the implemented these and couplings. Looking one step ahead, we plan to move next in the direction of considering more realistic classes of problem instances such as quadratic, binary optimization with constraints. Eso In closing, I should acknowledge people who did the hard work on these things that I've shown eso. My group, including graduate students Ed winning, Daniel Wennberg, Tatsuya Nagamoto and Atsushi Yamamura, have been working in close collaboration with Syria Ganguly, Marty Fair and Amir Safarini Nini, all of us within the Department of Applied Physics at Stanford University. On also in collaboration with the Oshima Moto over at NTT 55 research labs, Onda should acknowledge funding support from the NSF by the Coherent Easing Machines Expedition in computing, also from NTT five research labs, Army Research Office and Exxon Mobil. Uh, that's it. Thanks very much. >>Mhm e >>t research and the Oshie for putting together this program and also the opportunity to speak here. My name is Al Gore ism or Andy and I'm from Caltech, and today I'm going to tell you about the work that we have been doing on networks off optical parametric oscillators and how we have been using them for icing machines and how we're pushing them toward Cornum photonics to acknowledge my team at Caltech, which is now eight graduate students and five researcher and postdocs as well as collaborators from all over the world, including entity research and also the funding from different places, including entity. So this talk is primarily about networks of resonate er's, and these networks are everywhere from nature. For instance, the brain, which is a network of oscillators all the way to optics and photonics and some of the biggest examples or metal materials, which is an array of small resonate er's. And we're recently the field of technological photonics, which is trying thio implement a lot of the technological behaviors of models in the condensed matter, physics in photonics and if you want to extend it even further, some of the implementations off quantum computing are technically networks of quantum oscillators. So we started thinking about these things in the context of icing machines, which is based on the icing problem, which is based on the icing model, which is the simple summation over the spins and spins can be their upward down and the couplings is given by the JJ. And the icing problem is, if you know J I J. What is the spin configuration that gives you the ground state? And this problem is shown to be an MP high problem. So it's computational e important because it's a representative of the MP problems on NPR. Problems are important because first, their heart and standard computers if you use a brute force algorithm and they're everywhere on the application side. That's why there is this demand for making a machine that can target these problems, and hopefully it can provide some meaningful computational benefit compared to the standard digital computers. So I've been building these icing machines based on this building block, which is a degenerate optical parametric. Oscillator on what it is is resonator with non linearity in it, and we pump these resonate er's and we generate the signal at half the frequency of the pump. One vote on a pump splits into two identical photons of signal, and they have some very interesting phase of frequency locking behaviors. And if you look at the phase locking behavior, you realize that you can actually have two possible phase states as the escalation result of these Opio which are off by pie, and that's one of the important characteristics of them. So I want to emphasize a little more on that and I have this mechanical analogy which are basically two simple pendulum. But there are parametric oscillators because I'm going to modulate the parameter of them in this video, which is the length of the string on by that modulation, which is that will make a pump. I'm gonna make a muscular. That'll make a signal which is half the frequency of the pump. And I have two of them to show you that they can acquire these face states so they're still facing frequency lock to the pump. But it can also lead in either the zero pie face states on. The idea is to use this binary phase to represent the binary icing spin. So each opio is going to represent spin, which can be either is your pie or up or down. And to implement the network of these resonate er's, we use the time off blood scheme, and the idea is that we put impulses in the cavity. These pulses air separated by the repetition period that you put in or t r. And you can think about these pulses in one resonator, xaz and temporarily separated synthetic resonate Er's if you want a couple of these resonator is to each other, and now you can introduce these delays, each of which is a multiple of TR. If you look at the shortest delay it couples resonator wanted to 2 to 3 and so on. If you look at the second delay, which is two times a rotation period, the couple's 123 and so on. And if you have and minus one delay lines, then you can have any potential couplings among these synthetic resonate er's. And if I can introduce these modulators in those delay lines so that I can strength, I can control the strength and the phase of these couplings at the right time. Then I can have a program will all toe all connected network in this time off like scheme, and the whole physical size of the system scales linearly with the number of pulses. So the idea of opium based icing machine is didn't having these o pos, each of them can be either zero pie and I can arbitrarily connect them to each other. And then I start with programming this machine to a given icing problem by just setting the couplings and setting the controllers in each of those delight lines. So now I have a network which represents an icing problem. Then the icing problem maps to finding the face state that satisfy maximum number of coupling constraints. And the way it happens is that the icing Hamiltonian maps to the linear loss of the network. And if I start adding gain by just putting pump into the network, then the OPI ohs are expected to oscillate in the lowest, lowest lost state. And, uh and we have been doing these in the past, uh, six or seven years and I'm just going to quickly show you the transition, especially what happened in the first implementation, which was using a free space optical system and then the guided wave implementation in 2016 and the measurement feedback idea which led to increasing the size and doing actual computation with these machines. So I just want to make this distinction here that, um, the first implementation was an all optical interaction. We also had an unequal 16 implementation. And then we transition to this measurement feedback idea, which I'll tell you quickly what it iss on. There's still a lot of ongoing work, especially on the entity side, to make larger machines using the measurement feedback. But I'm gonna mostly focused on the all optical networks and how we're using all optical networks to go beyond simulation of icing Hamiltonian both in the linear and non linear side and also how we're working on miniaturization of these Opio networks. So the first experiment, which was the four opium machine, it was a free space implementation and this is the actual picture off the machine and we implemented a small and it calls for Mexico problem on the machine. So one problem for one experiment and we ran the machine 1000 times, we looked at the state and we always saw it oscillate in one of these, um, ground states of the icing laboratoria. So then the measurement feedback idea was to replace those couplings and the controller with the simulator. So we basically simulated all those coherent interactions on on FB g. A. And we replicated the coherent pulse with respect to all those measurements. And then we injected it back into the cavity and on the near to you still remain. So it still is a non. They're dynamical system, but the linear side is all simulated. So there are lots of questions about if this system is preserving important information or not, or if it's gonna behave better. Computational wars. And that's still ah, lot of ongoing studies. But nevertheless, the reason that this implementation was very interesting is that you don't need the end minus one delight lines so you can just use one. Then you can implement a large machine, and then you can run several thousands of problems in the machine, and then you can compare the performance from the computational perspective Looks so I'm gonna split this idea of opium based icing machine into two parts. One is the linear part, which is if you take out the non linearity out of the resonator and just think about the connections. You can think about this as a simple matrix multiplication scheme. And that's basically what gives you the icing Hambletonian modeling. So the optical laws of this network corresponds to the icing Hamiltonian. And if I just want to show you the example of the n equals for experiment on all those face states and the history Graham that we saw, you can actually calculate the laws of each of those states because all those interferences in the beam splitters and the delay lines are going to give you a different losses. And then you will see that the ground states corresponds to the lowest laws of the actual optical network. If you add the non linearity, the simple way of thinking about what the non linearity does is that it provides to gain, and then you start bringing up the gain so that it hits the loss. Then you go through the game saturation or the threshold which is going to give you this phase bifurcation. So you go either to zero the pie face state. And the expectation is that Theis, the network oscillates in the lowest possible state, the lowest possible loss state. There are some challenges associated with this intensity Durban face transition, which I'm going to briefly talk about. I'm also going to tell you about other types of non aerodynamics that we're looking at on the non air side of these networks. So if you just think about the linear network, we're actually interested in looking at some technological behaviors in these networks. And the difference between looking at the technological behaviors and the icing uh, machine is that now, First of all, we're looking at the type of Hamilton Ian's that are a little different than the icing Hamilton. And one of the biggest difference is is that most of these technological Hamilton Ian's that require breaking the time reversal symmetry, meaning that you go from one spin to in the one side to another side and you get one phase. And if you go back where you get a different phase, and the other thing is that we're not just interested in finding the ground state, we're actually now interesting and looking at all sorts of states and looking at the dynamics and the behaviors of all these states in the network. So we started with the simplest implementation, of course, which is a one d chain of thes resonate, er's, which corresponds to a so called ssh model. In the technological work, we get the similar energy to los mapping and now we can actually look at the band structure on. This is an actual measurement that we get with this associate model and you see how it reasonably how How? Well, it actually follows the prediction and the theory. One of the interesting things about the time multiplexing implementation is that now you have the flexibility of changing the network as you are running the machine. And that's something unique about this time multiplex implementation so that we can actually look at the dynamics. And one example that we have looked at is we can actually go through the transition off going from top A logical to the to the standard nontrivial. I'm sorry to the trivial behavior of the network. You can then look at the edge states and you can also see the trivial and states and the technological at states actually showing up in this network. We have just recently implement on a two D, uh, network with Harper Hofstadter model and when you don't have the results here. But we're one of the other important characteristic of time multiplexing is that you can go to higher and higher dimensions and keeping that flexibility and dynamics, and we can also think about adding non linearity both in a classical and quantum regimes, which is going to give us a lot of exotic, no classical and quantum, non innate behaviors in these networks. Yeah, So I told you about the linear side. Mostly let me just switch gears and talk about the nonlinear side of the network. And the biggest thing that I talked about so far in the icing machine is this face transition that threshold. So the low threshold we have squeezed state in these. Oh, pios, if you increase the pump, we go through this intensity driven phase transition and then we got the face stays above threshold. And this is basically the mechanism off the computation in these O pos, which is through this phase transition below to above threshold. So one of the characteristics of this phase transition is that below threshold, you expect to see quantum states above threshold. You expect to see more classical states or coherent states, and that's basically corresponding to the intensity off the driving pump. So it's really hard to imagine that it can go above threshold. Or you can have this friends transition happen in the all in the quantum regime. And there are also some challenges associated with the intensity homogeneity off the network, which, for example, is if one opioid starts oscillating and then its intensity goes really high. Then it's going to ruin this collective decision making off the network because of the intensity driven face transition nature. So So the question is, can we look at other phase transitions? Can we utilize them for both computing? And also can we bring them to the quantum regime on? I'm going to specifically talk about the face transition in the spectral domain, which is the transition from the so called degenerate regime, which is what I mostly talked about to the non degenerate regime, which happens by just tuning the phase of the cavity. And what is interesting is that this phase transition corresponds to a distinct phase noise behavior. So in the degenerate regime, which we call it the order state, you're gonna have the phase being locked to the phase of the pump. As I talked about non degenerate regime. However, the phase is the phase is mostly dominated by the quantum diffusion. Off the off the phase, which is limited by the so called shallow towns limit, and you can see that transition from the general to non degenerate, which also has distinct symmetry differences. And this transition corresponds to a symmetry breaking in the non degenerate case. The signal can acquire any of those phases on the circle, so it has a you one symmetry. Okay, and if you go to the degenerate case, then that symmetry is broken and you only have zero pie face days I will look at. So now the question is can utilize this phase transition, which is a face driven phase transition, and can we use it for similar computational scheme? So that's one of the questions that were also thinking about. And it's not just this face transition is not just important for computing. It's also interesting from the sensing potentials and this face transition, you can easily bring it below threshold and just operated in the quantum regime. Either Gaussian or non Gaussian. If you make a network of Opio is now, we can see all sorts off more complicated and more interesting phase transitions in the spectral domain. One of them is the first order phase transition, which you get by just coupling to Opio, and that's a very abrupt face transition and compared to the to the single Opio phase transition. And if you do the couplings right, you can actually get a lot of non her mission dynamics and exceptional points, which are actually very interesting to explore both in the classical and quantum regime. And I should also mention that you can think about the cup links to be also nonlinear couplings. And that's another behavior that you can see, especially in the nonlinear in the non degenerate regime. So with that, I basically told you about these Opio networks, how we can think about the linear scheme and the linear behaviors and how we can think about the rich, nonlinear dynamics and non linear behaviors both in the classical and quantum regime. I want to switch gear and tell you a little bit about the miniaturization of these Opio networks. And of course, the motivation is if you look at the electron ICS and what we had 60 or 70 years ago with vacuum tube and how we transition from relatively small scale computers in the order of thousands of nonlinear elements to billions of non elements where we are now with the optics is probably very similar to 70 years ago, which is a table talk implementation. And the question is, how can we utilize nano photonics? I'm gonna just briefly show you the two directions on that which we're working on. One is based on lithium Diabate, and the other is based on even a smaller resonate er's could you? So the work on Nana Photonic lithium naive. It was started in collaboration with Harvard Marko Loncar, and also might affair at Stanford. And, uh, we could show that you can do the periodic polling in the phenomenon of it and get all sorts of very highly nonlinear processes happening in this net. Photonic periodically polls if, um Diabate. And now we're working on building. Opio was based on that kind of photonic the film Diabate. And these air some some examples of the devices that we have been building in the past few months, which I'm not gonna tell you more about. But the O. P. O. S. And the Opio Networks are in the works. And that's not the only way of making large networks. Um, but also I want to point out that The reason that these Nana photonic goblins are actually exciting is not just because you can make a large networks and it can make him compact in a in a small footprint. They also provide some opportunities in terms of the operation regime. On one of them is about making cat states and Opio, which is, can we have the quantum superposition of the zero pie states that I talked about and the Net a photonic within? I've It provides some opportunities to actually get closer to that regime because of the spatial temporal confinement that you can get in these wave guides. So we're doing some theory on that. We're confident that the type of non linearity two losses that it can get with these platforms are actually much higher than what you can get with other platform their existing platforms and to go even smaller. We have been asking the question off. What is the smallest possible Opio that you can make? Then you can think about really wavelength scale type, resonate er's and adding the chi to non linearity and see how and when you can get the Opio to operate. And recently, in collaboration with us see, we have been actually USC and Creole. We have demonstrated that you can use nano lasers and get some spin Hamilton and implementations on those networks. So if you can build the a P. O s, we know that there is a path for implementing Opio Networks on on such a nano scale. So we have looked at these calculations and we try to estimate the threshold of a pos. Let's say for me resonator and it turns out that it can actually be even lower than the type of bulk Pip Llano Pos that we have been building in the past 50 years or so. So we're working on the experiments and we're hoping that we can actually make even larger and larger scale Opio networks. So let me summarize the talk I told you about the opium networks and our work that has been going on on icing machines and the measurement feedback. And I told you about the ongoing work on the all optical implementations both on the linear side and also on the nonlinear behaviors. And I also told you a little bit about the efforts on miniaturization and going to the to the Nano scale. So with that, I would like Thio >>three from the University of Tokyo. Before I thought that would like to thank you showing all the stuff of entity for the invitation and the organization of this online meeting and also would like to say that it has been very exciting to see the growth of this new film lab. And I'm happy to share with you today of some of the recent works that have been done either by me or by character of Hong Kong. Honest Group indicates the title of my talk is a neuro more fic in silica simulator for the communities in machine. And here is the outline I would like to make the case that the simulation in digital Tektronix of the CME can be useful for the better understanding or improving its function principles by new job introducing some ideas from neural networks. This is what I will discuss in the first part and then it will show some proof of concept of the game and performance that can be obtained using dissimulation in the second part and the protection of the performance that can be achieved using a very large chaos simulator in the third part and finally talk about future plans. So first, let me start by comparing recently proposed izing machines using this table there is elected from recent natural tronics paper from the village Park hard people, and this comparison shows that there's always a trade off between energy efficiency, speed and scalability that depends on the physical implementation. So in red, here are the limitation of each of the servers hardware on, interestingly, the F p G, a based systems such as a producer, digital, another uh Toshiba beautification machine or a recently proposed restricted Bozeman machine, FPD A by a group in Berkeley. They offer a good compromise between speed and scalability. And this is why, despite the unique advantage that some of these older hardware have trust as the currency proposition in Fox, CBS or the energy efficiency off memory Sisters uh P. J. O are still an attractive platform for building large organizing machines in the near future. The reason for the good performance of Refugee A is not so much that they operate at the high frequency. No, there are particular in use, efficient, but rather that the physical wiring off its elements can be reconfigured in a way that limits the funding human bottleneck, larger, funny and phenols and the long propagation video information within the system. In this respect, the LPGA is They are interesting from the perspective off the physics off complex systems, but then the physics of the actions on the photos. So to put the performance of these various hardware and perspective, we can look at the competition of bringing the brain the brain complete, using billions of neurons using only 20 watts of power and operates. It's a very theoretically slow, if we can see and so this impressive characteristic, they motivate us to try to investigate. What kind of new inspired principles be useful for designing better izing machines? The idea of this research project in the future collaboration it's to temporary alleviates the limitations that are intrinsic to the realization of an optical cortex in machine shown in the top panel here. By designing a large care simulator in silicone in the bottom here that can be used for digesting the better organization principles of the CIA and this talk, I will talk about three neuro inspired principles that are the symmetry of connections, neural dynamics orphan chaotic because of symmetry, is interconnectivity the infrastructure? No. Next talks are not composed of the reputation of always the same types of non environments of the neurons, but there is a local structure that is repeated. So here's the schematic of the micro column in the cortex. And lastly, the Iraqi co organization of connectivity connectivity is organizing a tree structure in the brain. So here you see a representation of the Iraqi and organization of the monkey cerebral cortex. So how can these principles we used to improve the performance of the icing machines? And it's in sequence stimulation. So, first about the two of principles of the estimate Trian Rico structure. We know that the classical approximation of the car testing machine, which is the ground toe, the rate based on your networks. So in the case of the icing machines, uh, the okay, Scott approximation can be obtained using the trump active in your position, for example, so the times of both of the system they are, they can be described by the following ordinary differential equations on in which, in case of see, I am the X, I represent the in phase component of one GOP Oh, Theo f represents the monitor optical parts, the district optical Parametric amplification and some of the good I JoJo extra represent the coupling, which is done in the case of the measure of feedback coupling cm using oh, more than detection and refugee A and then injection off the cooking time and eso this dynamics in both cases of CNN in your networks, they can be written as the grand set of a potential function V, and this written here, and this potential functionally includes the rising Maccagnan. So this is why it's natural to use this type of, uh, dynamics to solve the icing problem in which the Omega I J or the eyes in coping and the H is the extension of the icing and attorney in India and expect so. Not that this potential function can only be defined if the Omega I j. R. A. Symmetric. So the well known problem of this approach is that this potential function V that we obtain is very non convicts at low temperature, and also one strategy is to gradually deformed this landscape, using so many in process. But there is no theorem. Unfortunately, that granted conventions to the global minimum of There's even Tony and using this approach. And so this is why we propose, uh, to introduce a macro structures of the system where one analog spin or one D O. P. O is replaced by a pair off one another spin and one error, according viable. And the addition of this chemical structure introduces a symmetry in the system, which in terms induces chaotic dynamics, a chaotic search rather than a learning process for searching for the ground state of the icing. Every 20 within this massacre structure the role of the er variable eyes to control the amplitude off the analog spins toe force. The amplitude of the expense toe become equal to certain target amplitude a uh and, uh, and this is done by modulating the strength off the icing complaints or see the the error variable E I multiply the icing complaint here in the dynamics off air d o p. O. On then the dynamics. The whole dynamics described by this coupled equations because the e I do not necessarily take away the same value for the different. I thesis introduces a symmetry in the system, which in turn creates security dynamics, which I'm sure here for solving certain current size off, um, escape problem, Uh, in which the X I are shown here and the i r from here and the value of the icing energy showing the bottom plots. You see this Celtics search that visit various local minima of the as Newtonian and eventually finds the global minimum? Um, it can be shown that this modulation off the target opportunity can be used to destabilize all the local minima off the icing evertonians so that we're gonna do not get stuck in any of them. On more over the other types of attractors I can eventually appear, such as limits I contractors, Okot contractors. They can also be destabilized using the motivation of the target and Batuta. And so we have proposed in the past two different moderation of the target amateur. The first one is a modulation that ensure the uh 100 reproduction rate of the system to become positive on this forbids the creation off any nontrivial tractors. And but in this work, I will talk about another moderation or arrested moderation which is given here. That works, uh, as well as this first uh, moderation, but is easy to be implemented on refugee. So this couple of the question that represent becoming the stimulation of the cortex in machine with some error correction they can be implemented especially efficiently on an F B. G. And here I show the time that it takes to simulate three system and also in red. You see, at the time that it takes to simulate the X I term the EI term, the dot product and the rising Hamiltonian for a system with 500 spins and Iraq Spain's equivalent to 500 g. O. P. S. So >>in >>f b d a. The nonlinear dynamics which, according to the digital optical Parametric amplification that the Opa off the CME can be computed in only 13 clock cycles at 300 yards. So which corresponds to about 0.1 microseconds. And this is Toby, uh, compared to what can be achieved in the measurements back O C. M. In which, if we want to get 500 timer chip Xia Pios with the one she got repetition rate through the obstacle nine narrative. Uh, then way would require 0.5 microseconds toe do this so the submission in F B J can be at least as fast as ah one g repression. Uh, replicate pulsed laser CIA Um, then the DOT product that appears in this differential equation can be completed in 43 clock cycles. That's to say, one microseconds at 15 years. So I pieced for pouring sizes that are larger than 500 speeds. The dot product becomes clearly the bottleneck, and this can be seen by looking at the the skating off the time the numbers of clock cycles a text to compute either the non in your optical parts or the dog products, respect to the problem size. And And if we had infinite amount of resources and PGA to simulate the dynamics, then the non illogical post can could be done in the old one. On the mattress Vector product could be done in the low carrot off, located off scales as a look at it off and and while the guide off end. Because computing the dot product involves assuming all the terms in the product, which is done by a nephew, GE by another tree, which heights scarce logarithmic any with the size of the system. But This is in the case if we had an infinite amount of resources on the LPGA food, but for dealing for larger problems off more than 100 spins. Usually we need to decompose the metrics into ah, smaller blocks with the block side that are not you here. And then the scaling becomes funny, non inner parts linear in the end, over you and for the products in the end of EU square eso typically for low NF pdf cheap PGA you the block size off this matrix is typically about 100. So clearly way want to make you as large as possible in order to maintain this scanning in a log event for the numbers of clock cycles needed to compute the product rather than this and square that occurs if we decompose the metrics into smaller blocks. But the difficulty in, uh, having this larger blocks eyes that having another tree very large Haider tree introduces a large finding and finance and long distance start a path within the refugee. So the solution to get higher performance for a simulator of the contest in machine eyes to get rid of this bottleneck for the dot product by increasing the size of this at the tree. And this can be done by organizing your critique the electrical components within the LPGA in order which is shown here in this, uh, right panel here in order to minimize the finding finance of the system and to minimize the long distance that a path in the in the fpt So I'm not going to the details of how this is implemented LPGA. But just to give you a idea off why the Iraqi Yahiko organization off the system becomes the extremely important toe get good performance for similar organizing machine. So instead of instead of getting into the details of the mpg implementation, I would like to give some few benchmark results off this simulator, uh, off the that that was used as a proof of concept for this idea which is can be found in this archive paper here and here. I should results for solving escape problems. Free connected person, randomly person minus one spring last problems and we sure, as we use as a metric the numbers of the mattress Victor products since it's the bottleneck of the computation, uh, to get the optimal solution of this escape problem with the Nina successful BT against the problem size here and and in red here, this propose FDJ implementation and in ah blue is the numbers of retrospective product that are necessary for the C. I am without error correction to solve this escape programs and in green here for noisy means in an evening which is, uh, behavior with similar to the Cartesian mission. Uh, and so clearly you see that the scaring off the numbers of matrix vector product necessary to solve this problem scales with a better exponents than this other approaches. So So So that's interesting feature of the system and next we can see what is the real time to solution to solve this SK instances eso in the last six years, the time institution in seconds to find a grand state of risk. Instances remain answers probability for different state of the art hardware. So in red is the F B g. A presentation proposing this paper and then the other curve represent Ah, brick a local search in in orange and silver lining in purple, for example. And so you see that the scaring off this purpose simulator is is rather good, and that for larger plant sizes we can get orders of magnitude faster than the state of the art approaches. Moreover, the relatively good scanning off the time to search in respect to problem size uh, they indicate that the FPD implementation would be faster than risk. Other recently proposed izing machine, such as the hope you know, natural complimented on memories distance that is very fast for small problem size in blue here, which is very fast for small problem size. But which scanning is not good on the same thing for the restricted Bosman machine. Implementing a PGA proposed by some group in Broken Recently Again, which is very fast for small parliament sizes but which canning is bad so that a dis worse than the proposed approach so that we can expect that for programs size is larger than 1000 spins. The proposed, of course, would be the faster one. Let me jump toe this other slide and another confirmation that the scheme scales well that you can find the maximum cut values off benchmark sets. The G sets better candidates that have been previously found by any other algorithms, so they are the best known could values to best of our knowledge. And, um or so which is shown in this paper table here in particular, the instances, uh, 14 and 15 of this G set can be We can find better converse than previously known, and we can find this can vary is 100 times faster than the state of the art algorithm and CP to do this which is a very common Kasich. It s not that getting this a good result on the G sets, they do not require ah, particular hard tuning of the parameters. So the tuning issuing here is very simple. It it just depends on the degree off connectivity within each graph. And so this good results on the set indicate that the proposed approach would be a good not only at solving escape problems in this problems, but all the types off graph sizing problems on Mexican province in communities. So given that the performance off the design depends on the height of this other tree, we can try to maximize the height of this other tree on a large F p g a onda and carefully routing the components within the P G A and and we can draw some projections of what type of performance we can achieve in the near future based on the, uh, implementation that we are currently working. So here you see projection for the time to solution way, then next property for solving this escape programs respect to the prime assize. And here, compared to different with such publicizing machines, particularly the digital. And, you know, 42 is shown in the green here, the green line without that's and, uh and we should two different, uh, hypothesis for this productions either that the time to solution scales as exponential off n or that the time of social skills as expression of square root off. So it seems, according to the data, that time solution scares more as an expression of square root of and also we can be sure on this and this production show that we probably can solve prime escape problem of science 2000 spins, uh, to find the rial ground state of this problem with 99 success ability in about 10 seconds, which is much faster than all the other proposed approaches. So one of the future plans for this current is in machine simulator. So the first thing is that we would like to make dissimulation closer to the rial, uh, GOP oh, optical system in particular for a first step to get closer to the system of a measurement back. See, I am. And to do this what is, uh, simulate Herbal on the p a is this quantum, uh, condoms Goshen model that is proposed described in this paper and proposed by people in the in the Entity group. And so the idea of this model is that instead of having the very simple or these and have shown previously, it includes paired all these that take into account on me the mean off the awesome leverage off the, uh, European face component, but also their violence s so that we can take into account more quantum effects off the g o p. O, such as the squeezing. And then we plan toe, make the simulator open access for the members to run their instances on the system. There will be a first version in September that will be just based on the simple common line access for the simulator and in which will have just a classic or approximation of the system. We don't know Sturm, binary weights and museum in term, but then will propose a second version that would extend the current arising machine to Iraq off F p g. A, in which we will add the more refined models truncated, ignoring the bottom Goshen model they just talked about on the support in which he valued waits for the rising problems and support the cement. So we will announce later when this is available and and far right is working >>hard comes from Universal down today in physics department, and I'd like to thank the organizers for their kind invitation to participate in this very interesting and promising workshop. Also like to say that I look forward to collaborations with with a file lab and Yoshi and collaborators on the topics of this world. So today I'll briefly talk about our attempt to understand the fundamental limits off another continues time computing, at least from the point off you off bullion satisfy ability, problem solving, using ordinary differential equations. But I think the issues that we raise, um, during this occasion actually apply to other other approaches on a log approaches as well and into other problems as well. I think everyone here knows what Dorien satisfy ability. Problems are, um, you have boolean variables. You have em clauses. Each of disjunction of collaterals literally is a variable, or it's, uh, negation. And the goal is to find an assignment to the variable, such that order clauses are true. This is a decision type problem from the MP class, which means you can checking polynomial time for satisfy ability off any assignment. And the three set is empty, complete with K three a larger, which means an efficient trees. That's over, uh, implies an efficient source for all the problems in the empty class, because all the problems in the empty class can be reduced in Polian on real time to reset. As a matter of fact, you can reduce the NP complete problems into each other. You can go from three set to set backing or two maximum dependent set, which is a set packing in graph theoretic notions or terms toe the icing graphs. A problem decision version. This is useful, and you're comparing different approaches, working on different kinds of problems when not all the closest can be satisfied. You're looking at the accusation version offset, uh called Max Set. And the goal here is to find assignment that satisfies the maximum number of clauses. And this is from the NPR class. In terms of applications. If we had inefficient sets over or np complete problems over, it was literally, positively influenced. Thousands off problems and applications in industry and and science. I'm not going to read this, but this this, of course, gives a strong motivation toe work on this kind of problems. Now our approach to set solving involves embedding the problem in a continuous space, and you use all the east to do that. So instead of working zeros and ones, we work with minus one across once, and we allow the corresponding variables toe change continuously between the two bounds. We formulate the problem with the help of a close metrics. If if a if a close, uh, does not contain a variable or its negation. The corresponding matrix element is zero. If it contains the variable in positive, for which one contains the variable in a gated for Mitt's negative one, and then we use this to formulate this products caused quote, close violation functions one for every clause, Uh, which really, continuously between zero and one. And they're zero if and only if the clause itself is true. Uh, then we form the define in order to define a dynamic such dynamics in this and dimensional hyper cube where the search happens and if they exist, solutions. They're sitting in some of the corners of this hyper cube. So we define this, uh, energy potential or landscape function shown here in a way that this is zero if and only if all the clauses all the kmc zero or the clauses off satisfied keeping these auxiliary variables a EMS always positive. And therefore, what you do here is a dynamics that is a essentially ingredient descend on this potential energy landscape. If you were to keep all the M's constant that it would get stuck in some local minimum. However, what we do here is we couple it with the dynamics we cooperated the clothes violation functions as shown here. And if he didn't have this am here just just the chaos. For example, you have essentially what case you have positive feedback. You have increasing variable. Uh, but in that case, you still get stuck would still behave will still find. So she is better than the constant version but still would get stuck only when you put here this a m which makes the dynamics in in this variable exponential like uh, only then it keeps searching until he finds a solution on deer is a reason for that. I'm not going toe talk about here, but essentially boils down toe performing a Grady and descend on a globally time barren landscape. And this is what works. Now I'm gonna talk about good or bad and maybe the ugly. Uh, this is, uh, this is What's good is that it's a hyperbolic dynamical system, which means that if you take any domain in the search space that doesn't have a solution in it or any socially than the number of trajectories in it decays exponentially quickly. And the decay rate is a characteristic in variant characteristic off the dynamics itself. Dynamical systems called the escape right the inverse off that is the time scale in which you find solutions by this by this dynamical system, and you can see here some song trajectories that are Kelty because it's it's no linear, but it's transient, chaotic. Give their sources, of course, because eventually knowledge to the solution. Now, in terms of performance here, what you show for a bunch off, um, constraint densities defined by M overran the ratio between closes toe variables for random, said Problems is random. Chris had problems, and they as its function off n And we look at money toward the wartime, the wall clock time and it behaves quite value behaves Azat party nominally until you actually he to reach the set on set transition where the hardest problems are found. But what's more interesting is if you monitor the continuous time t the performance in terms off the A narrow, continuous Time t because that seems to be a polynomial. And the way we show that is, we consider, uh, random case that random three set for a fixed constraint density Onda. We hear what you show here. Is that the right of the trash hold that it's really hard and, uh, the money through the fraction of problems that we have not been able to solve it. We select thousands of problems at that constraint ratio and resolve them without algorithm, and we monitor the fractional problems that have not yet been solved by continuous 90. And this, as you see these decays exponentially different. Educate rates for different system sizes, and in this spot shows that is dedicated behaves polynomial, or actually as a power law. So if you combine these two, you find that the time needed to solve all problems except maybe appear traction off them scales foreign or merely with the problem size. So you have paranormal, continuous time complexity. And this is also true for other types of very hard constraints and sexual problems such as exact cover, because you can always transform them into three set as we discussed before, Ramsey coloring and and on these problems, even algorithms like survey propagation will will fail. But this doesn't mean that P equals NP because what you have first of all, if you were toe implement these equations in a device whose behavior is described by these, uh, the keys. Then, of course, T the continue style variable becomes a physical work off. Time on that will be polynomial is scaling, but you have another other variables. Oxidative variables, which structured in an exponential manner. So if they represent currents or voltages in your realization and it would be an exponential cost Al Qaeda. But this is some kind of trade between time and energy, while I know how toe generate energy or I don't know how to generate time. But I know how to generate energy so it could use for it. But there's other issues as well, especially if you're trying toe do this son and digital machine but also happens. Problems happen appear. Other problems appear on in physical devices as well as we discuss later. So if you implement this in GPU, you can. Then you can get in order off to magnitude. Speed up. And you can also modify this to solve Max sad problems. Uh, quite efficiently. You are competitive with the best heuristic solvers. This is a weather problems. In 2016 Max set competition eso so this this is this is definitely this seems like a good approach, but there's off course interesting limitations, I would say interesting, because it kind of makes you think about what it means and how you can exploit this thes observations in understanding better on a low continues time complexity. If you monitored the discrete number the number of discrete steps. Don't buy the room, Dakota integrator. When you solve this on a digital machine, you're using some kind of integrator. Um and you're using the same approach. But now you measure the number off problems you haven't sold by given number of this kid, uh, steps taken by the integrator. You find out you have exponential, discrete time, complexity and, of course, thistles. A problem. And if you look closely, what happens even though the analog mathematical trajectory, that's the record here. If you monitor what happens in discrete time, uh, the integrator frustrates very little. So this is like, you know, third or for the disposition, but fluctuates like crazy. So it really is like the intervention frees us out. And this is because of the phenomenon of stiffness that are I'll talk a little bit a more about little bit layer eso. >>You know, it might look >>like an integration issue on digital machines that you could improve and could definitely improve. But actually issues bigger than that. It's It's deeper than that, because on a digital machine there is no time energy conversion. So the outside variables are efficiently representing a digital machine. So there's no exponential fluctuating current of wattage in your computer when you do this. Eso If it is not equal NP then the exponential time, complexity or exponential costs complexity has to hit you somewhere. And this is how um, but, you know, one would be tempted to think maybe this wouldn't be an issue in a analog device, and to some extent is true on our devices can be ordered to maintain faster, but they also suffer from their own problems because he not gonna be affect. That classes soldiers as well. So, indeed, if you look at other systems like Mirandizing machine measurement feedback, probably talk on the grass or selected networks. They're all hinge on some kind off our ability to control your variables in arbitrary, high precision and a certain networks you want toe read out across frequencies in case off CM's. You required identical and program because which is hard to keep, and they kind of fluctuate away from one another, shift away from one another. And if you control that, of course that you can control the performance. So actually one can ask if whether or not this is a universal bottleneck and it seems so aside, I will argue next. Um, we can recall a fundamental result by by showing harder in reaction Target from 1978. Who says that it's a purely computer science proof that if you are able toe, compute the addition multiplication division off riel variables with infinite precision, then you could solve any complete problems in polynomial time. It doesn't actually proposals all where he just chose mathematically that this would be the case. Now, of course, in Real warned, you have also precision. So the next question is, how does that affect the competition about problems? This is what you're after. Lots of precision means information also, or entropy production. Eso what you're really looking at the relationship between hardness and cost of computing off a problem. Uh, and according to Sean Hagar, there's this left branch which in principle could be polynomial time. But the question whether or not this is achievable that is not achievable, but something more cheerful. That's on the right hand side. There's always going to be some information loss, so mental degeneration that could keep you away from possibly from point normal time. So this is what we like to understand, and this information laws the source off. This is not just always I will argue, uh, in any physical system, but it's also off algorithm nature, so that is a questionable area or approach. But China gets results. Security theoretical. No, actual solar is proposed. So we can ask, you know, just theoretically get out off. Curiosity would in principle be such soldiers because it is not proposing a soldier with such properties. In principle, if if you want to look mathematically precisely what the solar does would have the right properties on, I argue. Yes, I don't have a mathematical proof, but I have some arguments that that would be the case. And this is the case for actually our city there solver that if you could calculate its trajectory in a loss this way, then it would be, uh, would solve epic complete problems in polynomial continuous time. Now, as a matter of fact, this a bit more difficult question, because time in all these can be re scared however you want. So what? Burns says that you actually have to measure the length of the trajectory, which is a new variant off the dynamical system or property dynamical system, not off its parameters ization. And we did that. So Suba Corral, my student did that first, improving on the stiffness off the problem off the integrations, using implicit solvers and some smart tricks such that you actually are closer to the actual trajectory and using the same approach. You know what fraction off problems you can solve? We did not give the length of the trajectory. You find that it is putting on nearly scaling the problem sites we have putting on your skin complexity. That means that our solar is both Polly length and, as it is, defined it also poorly time analog solver. But if you look at as a discreet algorithm, if you measure the discrete steps on a digital machine, it is an exponential solver. And the reason is because off all these stiffness, every integrator has tow truck it digitizing truncate the equations, and what it has to do is to keep the integration between the so called stability region for for that scheme, and you have to keep this product within a grimace of Jacoby in and the step size read in this region. If you use explicit methods. You want to stay within this region? Uh, but what happens that some off the Eigen values grow fast for Steve problems, and then you're you're forced to reduce that t so the product stays in this bonded domain, which means that now you have to you're forced to take smaller and smaller times, So you're you're freezing out the integration and what I will show you. That's the case. Now you can move to increase its soldiers, which is which is a tree. In this case, you have to make domain is actually on the outside. But what happens in this case is some of the Eigen values of the Jacobean, also, for six systems, start to move to zero. As they're moving to zero, they're going to enter this instability region, so your soul is going to try to keep it out, so it's going to increase the data T. But if you increase that to increase the truncation hours, so you get randomized, uh, in the large search space, so it's it's really not, uh, not going to work out. Now, one can sort off introduce a theory or language to discuss computational and are computational complexity, using the language from dynamical systems theory. But basically I I don't have time to go into this, but you have for heart problems. Security object the chaotic satellite Ouch! In the middle of the search space somewhere, and that dictates how the dynamics happens and variant properties off the dynamics. Of course, off that saddle is what the targets performance and many things, so a new, important measure that we find that it's also helpful in describing thesis. Another complexity is the so called called Makarov, or metric entropy and basically what this does in an intuitive A eyes, uh, to describe the rate at which the uncertainty containing the insignificant digits off a trajectory in the back, the flow towards the significant ones as you lose information because off arrows being, uh grown or are developed in tow. Larger errors in an exponential at an exponential rate because you have positively up north spawning. But this is an in variant property. It's the property of the set of all. This is not how you compute them, and it's really the interesting create off accuracy philosopher dynamical system. A zay said that you have in such a high dimensional that I'm consistent were positive and negatively upon of exponents. Aziz Many The total is the dimension of space and user dimension, the number off unstable manifold dimensions and as Saddam was stable, manifold direction. And there's an interesting and I think, important passion, equality, equality called the passion, equality that connect the information theoretic aspect the rate off information loss with the geometric rate of which trajectory separate minus kappa, which is the escape rate that I already talked about. Now one can actually prove a simple theorems like back off the envelope calculation. The idea here is that you know the rate at which the largest rated, which closely started trajectory separate from one another. So now you can say that, uh, that is fine, as long as my trajectory finds the solution before the projective separate too quickly. In that case, I can have the hope that if I start from some region off the face base, several close early started trajectories, they kind of go into the same solution orphaned and and that's that's That's this upper bound of this limit, and it is really showing that it has to be. It's an exponentially small number. What? It depends on the end dependence off the exponents right here, which combines information loss rate and the social time performance. So these, if this exponents here or that has a large independence or river linear independence, then you then you really have to start, uh, trajectories exponentially closer to one another in orderto end up in the same order. So this is sort off like the direction that you're going in tow, and this formulation is applicable toe all dynamical systems, uh, deterministic dynamical systems. And I think we can We can expand this further because, uh, there is, ah, way off getting the expression for the escaped rate in terms off n the number of variables from cycle expansions that I don't have time to talk about. What? It's kind of like a program that you can try toe pursuit, and this is it. So the conclusions I think of self explanatory I think there is a lot of future in in, uh, in an allo. Continue start computing. Um, they can be efficient by orders of magnitude and digital ones in solving empty heart problems because, first of all, many of the systems you like the phone line and bottleneck. There's parallelism involved, and and you can also have a large spectrum or continues time, time dynamical algorithms than discrete ones. And you know. But we also have to be mindful off. What are the possibility of what are the limits? And 11 open question is very important. Open question is, you know, what are these limits? Is there some kind off no go theory? And that tells you that you can never perform better than this limit or that limit? And I think that's that's the exciting part toe to derive thes thes this levian 10.

>>Hi everyone, This system A fellow from the University of Tokyo before I thought that would like to thank you she and all the stuff of entity for the invitation and the organization of this online meeting and also would like to say that it has been very exciting to see the growth of this new film lab. And I'm happy to share with you today or some of the recent works that have been done either by me or by character of Hong Kong Noise Group indicating the title of my talk is a neuro more fic in silica simulator for the commenters in machine. And here is the outline I would like to make the case that the simulation in digital Tektronix of the CME can be useful for the better understanding or improving its function principles by new job introducing some ideas from neural networks. This is what I will discuss in the first part and then I will show some proof of concept of the game in performance that can be obtained using dissimulation in the second part and the production of the performance that can be achieved using a very large chaos simulator in the third part and finally talk about future plans. So first, let me start by comparing recently proposed izing machines using this table there is adapted from a recent natural tronics paper from the Village Back hard People. And this comparison shows that there's always a trade off between energy efficiency, speed and scalability that depends on the physical implementation. So in red, here are the limitation of each of the servers hardware on, Interestingly, the F p G, a based systems such as a producer, digital, another uh Toshiba purification machine, or a recently proposed restricted Bozeman machine, FPD eight, by a group in Berkeley. They offer a good compromise between speed and scalability. And this is why, despite the unique advantage that some of these older hardware have trust as the currency proposition influx you beat or the energy efficiency off memory sisters uh P. J. O are still an attractive platform for building large theorizing machines in the near future. The reason for the good performance of Refugee A is not so much that they operate at the high frequency. No, there are particle in use, efficient, but rather that the physical wiring off its elements can be reconfigured in a way that limits the funding human bottleneck, larger, funny and phenols and the long propagation video information within the system in this respect, the f. D. A s. They are interesting from the perspective, off the physics off complex systems, but then the physics of the actions on the photos. So to put the performance of these various hardware and perspective, we can look at the competition of bringing the brain the brain complete, using billions of neurons using only 20 watts of power and operates. It's a very theoretically slow, if we can see. And so this impressive characteristic, they motivate us to try to investigate. What kind of new inspired principles be useful for designing better izing machines? The idea of this research project in the future collaboration it's to temporary alleviates the limitations that are intrinsic to the realization of an optical cortex in machine shown in the top panel here. By designing a large care simulator in silicone in the bottom here that can be used for suggesting the better organization principles of the CIA and this talk, I will talk about three neuro inspired principles that are the symmetry of connections, neural dynamics. Orphan, chaotic because of symmetry, is interconnectivity. The infrastructure. No neck talks are not composed of the reputation of always the same types of non environments of the neurons, but there is a local structure that is repeated. So here's a schematic of the micro column in the cortex. And lastly, the Iraqi co organization of connectivity connectivity is organizing a tree structure in the brain. So here you see a representation of the Iraqi and organization of the monkey cerebral cortex. So how can these principles we used to improve the performance of the icing machines? And it's in sequence stimulation. So, first about the two of principles of the estimate Trian Rico structure. We know that the classical approximation of the Cortes in machine, which is a growing toe the rate based on your networks. So in the case of the icing machines, uh, the okay, Scott approximation can be obtained using the trump active in your position, for example, so the times of both of the system they are, they can be described by the following ordinary differential equations on in which, in case of see, I am the X, I represent the in phase component of one GOP Oh, Theo F represents the monitor optical parts, the district optical parametric amplification and some of the good I JoJo extra represent the coupling, which is done in the case of the measure of feedback cooking cm using oh, more than detection and refugee A then injection off the cooking time and eso this dynamics in both cases of CME in your networks, they can be written as the grand set of a potential function V, and this written here, and this potential functionally includes the rising Maccagnan. So this is why it's natural to use this type of, uh, dynamics to solve the icing problem in which the Omega I J or the Eyes in coping and the H is the extension of the rising and attorney in India and expect so. >>Not that this potential function can only be defined if the Omega I j. R. A. Symmetric. So the well known problem of >>this approach is that this potential function V that we obtain is very non convicts at low temperature, and also one strategy is to gradually deformed this landscape, using so many in process. But there is no theorem. Unfortunately, that granted convergence to the global minimum of there's even 20 and using this approach. And so this is >>why we propose toe introduce a macro structure the system or where one analog spin or one D o. P. O is replaced by a pair off one and knock spin and one error on cutting. Viable. And the addition of this chemical structure introduces a symmetry in the system, which in terms induces chaotic dynamics, a chaotic search rather than a >>learning process for searching for the ground state of the icing. Every 20 >>within this massacre structure the role of the ER variable eyes to control the amplitude off the analog spins to force the amplitude of the expense toe, become equal to certain target amplitude. A Andi. This is known by moderating the strength off the icing complaints or see the the error variable e I multiply the icing complain here in the dynamics off UH, D o p o on Then the dynamics. The whole dynamics described by this coupled equations because the e I do not necessarily take away the same value for the different, I think introduces a >>symmetry in the system, which in turn creates chaotic dynamics, which I'm showing here for solving certain current size off, um, escape problem, Uh, in which the exiled from here in the i r. From here and the value of the icing energy is shown in the bottom plots. And you see this Celtics search that visit various local minima of the as Newtonian and eventually finds the local minima Um, >>it can be shown that this modulation off the target opportunity can be used to destabilize all the local minima off the icing hamiltonian so that we're gonna do not get stuck in any of them. On more over the other types of attractors, I can eventually appear, such as the limits of contractors or quality contractors. They can also be destabilized using a moderation of the target amplitude. And so we have proposed in the past two different motivation of the target constitute the first one is a moderation that ensure the 100 >>reproduction rate of the system to become positive on this forbids the creation of any non tree retractors. And but in this work I will talk about another modulation or Uresti moderation, which is given here that works, uh, as well as this first, uh, moderation, but is easy to be implemented on refugee. >>So this couple of the question that represent the current the stimulation of the cortex in machine with some error correction, they can be implemented especially efficiently on an F B G. And here I show the time that it takes to simulate three system and eso in red. You see, at the time that it takes to simulate the X, I term the EI term, the dot product and the rising everything. Yet for a system with 500 spins analog Spain's equivalent to 500 g. O. P. S. So in f b d a. The nonlinear dynamics which, according to the digital optical Parametric amplification that the Opa off the CME can be computed in only 13 clock cycles at 300 yards. So which corresponds to about 0.1 microseconds. And this is Toby, uh, compared to what can be achieved in the measurements tobacco cm in which, if we want to get 500 timer chip Xia Pios with the one she got repetition rate through the obstacle nine narrative. Uh, then way would require 0.5 microseconds toe do this so the submission in F B J can be at least as fast as, ah one gear repression to replicate the post phaser CIA. Um, then the DOT product that appears in this differential equation can be completed in 43 clock cycles. That's to say, one microseconds at 15 years. So I pieced for pouring sizes that are larger than 500 speeds. The dot product becomes clearly the bottleneck, and this can be seen by looking at the the skating off the time the numbers of clock cycles a text to compute either the non in your optical parts, all the dog products, respect to the problem size. And and if we had a new infinite amount of resources and PGA to simulate the dynamics, then the non in optical post can could be done in the old one. On the mattress Vector product could be done in the low carrot off, located off scales as a low carrot off end and while the kite off end. Because computing the dot product involves the summing, all the terms in the products, which is done by a nephew, Jay by another tree, which heights scares a logarithmic any with the size of the system. But this is in the case if we had an infinite amount of resources on the LPGA food but for dealing for larger problems off more than 100 spins, usually we need to decompose the metrics into ah smaller blocks with the block side that are not you here. And then the scaling becomes funny non inner parts linear in the and over you and for the products in the end of you square eso typically for low NF pdf cheap P a. You know you the block size off this matrix is typically about 100. So clearly way want to make you as large as possible in order to maintain this scanning in a log event for the numbers of clock cycles needed to compute the product rather than this and square that occurs if we decompose the metrics into smaller blocks. But the difficulty in, uh, having this larger blocks eyes that having another tree very large Haider tree introduces a large finding and finance and long distance started path within the refugee. So the solution to get higher performance for a simulator of the contest in machine eyes to get rid of this bottleneck for the dot product. By increasing the size of this at the tree and this can be done by organizing Yeah, click the extra co components within the F p G A in order which is shown here in this right panel here in order to minimize the finding finance of the system and to minimize the long distance that the path in the in the fpt So I'm not going to the details of how this is implemented the PGA. But just to give you a new idea off why the Iraqi Yahiko organization off the system becomes extremely important toe get good performance for simulator organizing mission. So instead of instead of getting into the details of the mpg implementation, I would like to give some few benchmark results off this simulator, uh, off the that that was used as a proof of concept for this idea which is can be found in this archive paper here and here. I should result for solving escape problems, free connected person, randomly person minus one, spin last problems and we sure, as we use as a metric the numbers >>of the mattress Victor products since it's the bottleneck of the computation, uh, to get the optimal solution of this escape problem with Nina successful BT against the problem size here and and in red here there's propose F B J implementation and in ah blue is the numbers of retrospective product that are necessary for the C. I am without error correction to solve this escape programs and in green here for noisy means in an evening which is, uh, behavior. It's similar to the car testing machine >>and security. You see that the scaling off the numbers of metrics victor product necessary to solve this problem scales with a better exponents than this other approaches. So so So that's interesting feature of the system and next we can see what is the real time to solution. To solve this, SK instances eso in the last six years, the time institution in seconds >>to find a grand state of risk. Instances remain answers is possibility for different state of the art hardware. So in red is the F B G. A presentation proposing this paper and then the other curve represent ah, brick, a local search in in orange and center dining in purple, for example, and So you see that the scaring off this purpose simulator is is rather good and that for larger politicizes, we can get orders of magnitude faster than the state of the other approaches. >>Moreover, the relatively good scanning off the time to search in respect to problem size uh, they indicate that the FBT implementation would be faster than risk Other recently proposed izing machine, such as the Hope you know network implemented on Memory Sisters. That is very fast for small problem size in blue here, which is very fast for small problem size. But which scanning is not good on the same thing for the >>restricted Bosman machine implemented a PGA proposed by some group in Brooklyn recently again, which is very fast for small promise sizes. But which canning is bad So that, uh, this worse than the purpose approach so that we can expect that for promise sizes larger than, let's say, 1000 spins. The purpose, of course, would be the faster one. >>Let me jump toe this other slide and another confirmation that the scheme scales well that you can find the maximum cut values off benchmark sets. The G sets better cut values that have been previously found by any other >>algorithms. So they are the best known could values to best of our knowledge. And, um, or so which is shown in this paper table here in particular, the instances, Uh, 14 and 15 of this G set can be We can find better converse than previously >>known, and we can find this can vary is 100 times >>faster than the state of the art algorithm and cp to do this which is a recount. Kasich, it s not that getting this a good result on the G sets, they do not require ah, particular hard tuning of the parameters. So the tuning issuing here is very simple. It it just depends on the degree off connectivity within each graph. And so this good results on the set indicate that the proposed approach would be a good not only at solving escape problems in this problems, but all the types off graph sizing problems on Mexican province in communities. >>So given that the performance off the design depends on the height of this other tree, we can try to maximize the height of this other tree on a large F p g A onda and carefully routing the trickle components within the P G A. And and we can draw some projections of what type of performance we can achieve in >>the near future based on the, uh, implementation that we are currently working. So here you see projection for the time to solution way, then next property for solving this escape problems respect to the prime assize. And here, compared to different with such publicizing machines, particularly the digital and, you know, free to is shown in the green here, the green >>line without that's and, uh and we should two different, uh, prosthesis for this productions either that the time to solution scales as exponential off n or that >>the time of social skills as expression of square root off. So it seems according to the data, that time solution scares more as an expression of square root of and also we can be sure >>on this and this production showed that we probably can solve Prime Escape Program of Science 2000 spins to find the rial ground state of this problem with 99 success ability in about 10 seconds, which is much faster than all the other proposed approaches. So one of the future plans for this current is in machine simulator. So the first thing is that we would like to make dissimulation closer to the rial, uh, GOP or optical system in particular for a first step to get closer to the system of a measurement back. See, I am. And to do this, what is, uh, simulate Herbal on the p a is this quantum, uh, condoms Goshen model that is proposed described in this paper and proposed by people in the in the Entity group. And so the idea of this model is that instead of having the very simple or these and have shown previously, it includes paired all these that take into account out on me the mean off the awesome leverage off the, uh, European face component, but also their violence s so that we can take into account more quantum effects off the g o p. O, such as the squeezing. And then we plan toe, make the simulator open access for the members to run their instances on the system. There will be a first version in September that will >>be just based on the simple common line access for the simulator and in which will have just a classical approximation of the system. We don't know Sturm, binary weights and Museum in >>term, but then will propose a second version that would extend the current arising machine to Iraq off eight f p g. A. In which we will add the more refined models truncated bigger in the bottom question model that just talked about on the supports in which he valued waits for the rising problems and support the cement. So we will announce >>later when this is available, and Farah is working hard to get the first version available sometime in September. Thank you all, and we'll be happy to answer any questions that you have.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's The Cube, covering Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, hosted by Cal Poly. >> Everyone, welcome to this special virtual conference, the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 put on by Cal Poly with support from The Cube. I'm John Furey, your host and master of ceremony's got a great topic today, and this session is really the intersection of space and cybersecurity. This topic, and this conversation is a cybersecurity workforce development through public and private partnerships. And we've got a great lineup, we've Jeff Armstrong is the president of California Polytechnic State University, also known as Cal Poly. Jeffrey, thanks for jumping on and Bong Gumahad. The second, Director of C4ISR Division, and he's joining us from the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for the acquisition and sustainment of Department of Defense, DOD, and of course Steve Jacques is Executive Director, founder National Security Space Association, and managing partner at Velos. Gentlemen, thank you for joining me for this session, we've got an hour of conversation, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> So we've got a virtual event here, we've got an hour to have a great conversation, I'd love for you guys to do an opening statement on how you see the development through public and private partnerships around cybersecurity and space, Jeff, we'll start with you. >> Well, thanks very much, John, it's great to be on with all of you. On behalf of Cal Poly, welcome everyone. Educating the workforce of tomorrow is our mission at Cal Poly, whether that means traditional undergraduates, masters students, or increasingly, mid-career professionals looking to upskill or re-skill. Our signature pedagogy is learn by doing, which means that our graduates arrive at employers, ready day one with practical skills and experience. We have long thought of ourselves as lucky to be on California's beautiful central coast, but in recent years, as we've developed closer relationships with Vandenberg Air Force Base, hopefully the future permanent headquarters of the United States Space Command with Vandenberg and other regional partners, We have discovered that our location is even more advantageous than we thought. We're just 50 miles away from Vandenberg, a little closer than UC Santa Barbara and the base represents the Southern border of what we have come to think of as the central coast region. Cal Poly and Vandenberg Air Force Base have partnered to support regional economic development, to encourage the development of a commercial space port, to advocate for the space command headquarters coming to Vandenberg and other ventures. These partnerships have been possible because both parties stand to benefit. Vandenberg, by securing new streams of revenue, workforce, and local supply chain and Cal Poly by helping to grow local jobs for graduates, internship opportunities for students and research and entrepreneurship opportunities for faculty and staff. Crucially, what's good for Vandenberg Air Force Base and for Cal Poly is also good for the central coast and the U.S., creating new head of household jobs, infrastructure, and opportunity. Our goal is that these new jobs bring more diversity and sustainability for the region. This regional economic development has taken on a life of its own, spawning a new nonprofit called REACH which coordinates development efforts from Vandenberg Air Force Base in the South to Camp Roberts in the North. Another factor that has facilitated our relationship with Vandenberg Air Force Base is that we have some of the same friends. For example, Northrop Grumman has as long been an important defense contractor and an important partner to Cal Poly, funding scholarships in facilities that have allowed us to stay current with technology in it to attract highly qualified students for whom Cal Poly's costs would otherwise be prohibitive. For almost 20 years, Northrop Grumman has funded scholarships for Cal Poly students. This year, they're funding 64 scholarships, some directly in our College of Engineering and most through our Cal Poly Scholars Program. Cal Poly scholars support both incoming freshmen and transfer students. These are especially important, 'cause it allows us to provide additional support and opportunities to a group of students who are mostly first generation, low income and underrepresented, and who otherwise might not choose to attend Cal Poly. They also allow us to recruit from partner high schools with large populations of underrepresented minority students, including the Fortune High School in Elk Grove, which we developed a deep and lasting connection. We know that the best work is done by balanced teams that include multiple and diverse perspectives. These scholarships help us achieve that goal and I'm sure you know Northrop Grumman was recently awarded a very large contract to modernize the U.S. ICBM armory with some of the work being done at Vandenberg Air Force Base, thus supporting the local economy and protecting... Protecting our efforts in space requires partnerships in the digital realm. Cal Poly has partnered with many private companies such as AWS. Our partnerships with Amazon Web Services has enabled us to train our students with next generation cloud engineering skills, in part, through our jointly created digital transformation hub. Another partnership example is among Cal Poly's California Cyber Security Institute College of Engineering and the California National Guard. This partnership is focused on preparing a cyber-ready workforce, by providing faculty and students with a hands on research and learning environment side by side with military law enforcement professionals and cyber experts. We also have a long standing partnership with PG&E most recently focused on workforce development and redevelopment. Many of our graduates do indeed go on to careers in aerospace and defense industry. As a rough approximation, more than 4,500 Cal Poly graduates list aerospace or defense as their employment sector on LinkedIn. And it's not just our engineers in computer sciences. When I was speaking to our fellow panelists not too long ago, speaking to Bong, we learned that Rachel Sims, one of our liberal arts majors is working in his office, so shout out to you, Rachel. And then finally, of course, some of our graduates soar to extraordinary heights, such as Commander Victor Glover, who will be heading to the International Space Station later this year. As I close, all of which is to say that we're deeply committed to workforce development and redevelopment, that we understand the value of public-private partnerships, and that we're eager to find new ways in which to benefit everyone from this further cooperation. So we're committed to the region, the state and the nation, in our past efforts in space, cyber security and links to our partners at, as I indicated, aerospace industry and governmental partners provides a unique position for us to move forward in the interface of space and cyber security. Thank you so much, John. >> President Armstrong, thank you very much for the comments and congratulations to Cal Poly for being on the forefront of innovation and really taking a unique, progressive view and want to tip a hat to you guys over there, thank you very much for those comments, appreciate it. Bong, Department of Defense. Exciting, you've got to defend the nation, space is global, your opening statement. >> Yes, sir, thanks John, appreciate that. Thank you everybody, I'm honored to be in this panel along with Preston Armstrong of Cal Poly and my longtime friend and colleague Steve Jacques of the National Security Space Association to discuss a very important topic of a cybersecurity workforce development as President Armstrong alluded to. I'll tell you, both of these organizations, Cal Poly and the NSSA have done and continue to do an exceptional job at finding talent, recruiting them and training current and future leaders and technical professionals that we vitally need for our nation's growing space programs, as well as our collective national security. Earlier today, during session three, I, along with my colleague, Chris Samson discussed space cyber security and how the space domain is changing the landscape of future conflicts. I discussed the rapid emergence of commercial space with the proliferation of hundreds, if not thousands of satellites, providing a variety of services including communications, allowing for global internet connectivity, as one example. Within DOD, we continued to look at how we can leverage this opportunity. I'll tell you, one of the enabling technologies, is the use of small satellites, which are inherently cheaper and perhaps more flexible than the traditional bigger systems that we have historically used and employed for DOD. Certainly not lost on me is the fact that Cal Poly pioneered CubeSats 28, 27 years ago, and they set a standard for the use of these systems today. So they saw the value and benefit gained way ahead of everybody else it seems. And Cal Poly's focus on training and education is commendable. I'm especially impressed by the efforts of another of Steven's colleague, the current CIO, Mr. Bill Britton, with his high energy push to attract the next generation of innovators. Earlier this year, I had planned on participating in this year's cyber innovation challenge in June, Oops, Cal Poly hosts California middle, and high school students, and challenge them with situations to test their cyber knowledge. I tell you, I wish I had that kind of opportunity when I was a kid, unfortunately, the pandemic changed the plan, but I truly look forward to future events such as these, to participate in. Now, I want to recognize my good friend, Steve Jacques, whom I've known for perhaps too long of a time here, over two decades or so, who was an acknowledged space expert and personally I've truly applaud him for having the foresight a few years back to form the National Security Space Association to help the entire space enterprise navigate through not only technology, but policy issues and challenges and paved the way for operationalizing space. Space, it certainly was fortifying domain, it's not a secret anymore, and while it is a unique area, it shares a lot of common traits with the other domains, such as land, air, and sea, obviously all are strategically important to the defense of the United States. In conflict, they will all be contested and therefore they all need to be defended. One domain alone will not win future conflicts, and in a joint operation, we must succeed in all. So defending space is critical, as critical as to defending our other operational domains. Funny, space is the only sanctuary available only to the government. Increasingly as I discussed in a previous session, commercial space is taking the lead in a lot of different areas, including R&D, the so-called new space. So cybersecurity threat is even more demanding and even more challenging. The U.S. considers and futhered access to and freedom to operate in space, vital to advancing security, economic prosperity and scientific knowledge of the country, thus making cyberspace an inseparable component of America's financial, social government and political life. We stood up US Space Force a year ago or so as the newest military service. Like the other services, its mission is to organize, train and equip space forces in order to protect U.S. and allied interest in space and to provide spacecape builders who joined force. Imagine combining that U.S. Space Force with the U.S. Cyber Command to unify the direction of the space and cyberspace operation, strengthen DOD capabilities and integrate and bolster a DOD cyber experience. Now, of course, to enable all of this requires a trained and professional cadre of cyber security experts, combining a good mix of policy, as well as a high technical skill set. Much like we're seeing in STEM, we need to attract more people to this growing field. Now, the DOD has recognized the importance to the cybersecurity workforce, and we have implemented policies to encourage its growth. Back in 2013, the Deputy Secretary of Defense signed a DOD Cyberspace Workforce Strategy, to create a comprehensive, well-equipped cyber security team to respond to national security concerns. Now, this strategy also created a program that encourages collaboration between the DOD and private sector employees. We call this the Cyber Information Technology Exchange program, or CITE that it's an exchange program, which is very interesting in which a private sector employee can naturally work for the DOD in a cyber security position that spans across multiple mission critical areas, important to the DOD. A key responsibility of the cyber security community is military leaders, unrelated threats, and the cyber security actions we need to have to defeat these threats. We talked about rapid acquisition, agile business processes and practices to speed up innovation, likewise, cyber security must keep up with this challenge. So cyber security needs to be right there with the challenges and changes, and this requires exceptional personnel. We need to attract talent, invest in the people now to grow a robust cybersecurity workforce for the future. I look forward to the panel discussion, John, thank you. >> Thank you so much, Bob for those comments and, you know, new challenges or new opportunities and new possibilities and freedom to operate in space is critical, thank you for those comments, looking forward to chatting further. Steve Jacques, Executive Director of NSSA, you're up, opening statement. >> Thank you, John and echoing Bongs, thanks to Cal Poly for pulling this important event together and frankly, for allowing the National Security Space Association be a part of it. Likewise, on behalf of the association, I'm delighted and honored to be on this panel of President Armstrong, along with my friend and colleague, Bong Gumahad. Something for you all to know about Bong, he spent the first 20 years of his career in the Air Force doing space programs. He then went into industry for several years and then came back into government to serve, very few people do that. So Bong, on behalf of the space community, we thank you for your lifelong devotion to service to our nation, we really appreciate that. And I also echo a Bong shout out to that guy, Bill Britton. who's been a long time co-conspirator of ours for a long time, and you're doing great work there in the cyber program at Cal Poly, Bill, keep it up. But Professor Armstrong, keep a close eye on him. (laughter) I would like to offer a little extra context to the great comments made by President Armstrong and Bong. And in our view, the timing of this conference really could not be any better. We all recently reflected again on that tragic 9/11 surprise attack on our homeland and it's an appropriate time we think to take pause. While a percentage of you in the audience here weren't even born or were babies then, for the most of us, it still feels like yesterday. And moreover, a tragedy like 9/11 has taught us a lot to include, to be more vigilant, always keep our collective eyes and ears open, to include those "eyes and ears from space," making sure nothing like this ever happens again. So this conference is a key aspect, protecting our nation requires we work in a cyber secure environment at all times. But you know, the fascinating thing about space systems is we can't see 'em. Now sure, we see space launches, man, there's nothing more invigorating than that. But after launch they become invisible, so what are they really doing up there? What are they doing to enable our quality of life in the United States and in the world? Well to illustrate, I'd like to paraphrase elements of an article in Forbes magazine, by Bongs and my good friend, Chuck Beames, Chuck is a space guy, actually had Bongs job a few years in the Pentagon. He's now Chairman and Chief Strategy Officer at York Space Systems and in his spare time, he's Chairman of the Small Satellites. Chuck speaks in words that everyone can understand, so I'd like to give you some of his words out of his article, paraphrase somewhat, so these are Chuck's words. "Let's talk about average Joe and plain Jane. "Before heading to the airport for a business trip "to New York city, Joe checks the weather forecast, "informed by NOAA's weather satellites, "to see what to pack for the trip. "He then calls an Uber, that space app everybody uses, "it matches riders with drivers via GPS, "to take him to the airport. "So Joe has launched in the airport, "unbeknownst to him, his organic lunch is made "with the help of precision farming "made possible to optimize the irrigation and fertilization "with remote spectral sensing coming from space and GPS. "On the plane, the pilot navigates around weather, "aided by GPS and NOAA's weather satellites "and Joe makes his meeting on time "to join his New York colleagues in a video call "with a key customer in Singapore, "made possible by telecommunication satellites. "En route to his next meeting, "Joe receives notice changing the location of the meeting "to the other side of town. "So he calmly tells Siri to adjust the destination "and his satellite-guided Google maps redirect him "to the new location. "That evening, Joe watches the news broadcast via satellite, "report details of meeting among world leaders, "discussing the developing crisis in Syria. "As it turns out various forms of "'remotely sensed information' collected from satellites "indicate that yet another banned chemical weapon "may have been used on its own people. "Before going to bed, Joe decides to call his parents "and congratulate them for their wedding anniversary "as they cruise across the Atlantic, "made possible again by communication satellites "and Joe's parents can enjoy the call "without even wondering how it happened. "The next morning back home, "Joe's wife, Jane is involved in a car accident. "Her vehicle skids off the road, she's knocked unconscious, "but because of her satellite equipped OnStar system, "the crash is detected immediately, "and first responders show up on the scene in time. "Joe receives the news, books an early trip home, "sends flowers to his wife "as he orders another Uber to the airport. "Over that 24 hours, "Joe and Jane used space system applications "for nearly every part of their day. "Imagine the consequences if at any point "they were somehow denied these services, "whether they be by natural causes or a foreign hostility. "In each of these satellite applications used in this case, "were initially developed for military purposes "and continued to be, but also have remarkable application "on our way of life, just many people just don't know that." So ladies and gentlemen, now you know, thanks to Chuck Beames. Well, the United States has a proud heritage of being the world's leading space-faring nation. Dating back to the Eisenhower and Kennedy years, today, we have mature and robust systems operating from space, providing overhead reconnaissance to "watch and listen," provide missile warning, communications, positioning, navigation, and timing from our GPS system, much of which you heard in Lieutenant General JT Thomson's earlier speech. These systems are not only integral to our national security, but also to our quality of life. As Chuck told us, we simply no longer can live without these systems as a nation and for that matter, as a world. But over the years, adversaries like China, Russia and other countries have come to realize the value of space systems and are aggressively playing catch up while also pursuing capabilities that will challenge our systems. As many of you know, in 2007, China demonstrated its ASAT system by actually shooting down one of its own satellites and has been aggressively developing counterspace systems to disrupt ours. So in a heavily congested space environment, our systems are now being contested like never before and will continue to be. Well, as a Bong mentioned, the United States have responded to these changing threats. In addition to adding ways to protect our system, the administration and the Congress recently created the United States Space Force and the operational United States Space Command, the latter of which you heard President Armstrong and other Californians hope is going to be located at Vandenberg Air Force Base. Combined with our intelligence community, today we have focused military and civilian leadership now in space, and that's a very, very good thing. Commensurately on the industry side, we did create the National Security Space Association, devoted solely to supporting the National Security Space Enterprise. We're based here in the DC area, but we have arms and legs across the country and we are loaded with extraordinary talent in scores of former government executives. So NSSA is joined at the hip with our government customers to serve and to support. We're busy with a multitude of activities underway, ranging from a number of thought-provoking policy papers, our recurring spacetime webcasts, supporting Congress's space power caucus, and other main serious efforts. Check us out at nssaspace.org. One of our strategic priorities and central to today's events is to actively promote and nurture the workforce development, just like Cal-Poly. We will work with our U.S. government customers, industry leaders, and academia to attract and recruit students to join the space world, whether in government or industry, and to assist in mentoring and training as their careers progress. On that point, we're delighted to be working with Cal Poly as we hopefully will undertake a new pilot program with them very soon. So students stay tuned, something I can tell you, space is really cool. While our nation's satellite systems are technical and complex, our nation's government and industry workforce is highly diverse, with a combination of engineers, physicists and mathematicians, but also with a large non-technical expertise as well. Think about how government gets these systems designed, manufactured, launching into orbit and operating. They do this via contracts with our aerospace industry, requiring talents across the board, from cost estimating, cost analysis, budgeting, procurement, legal, and many other support tasks that are integral to the mission. Many thousands of people work in the space workforce, tens of billions of dollars every year. This is really cool stuff and no matter what your education background, a great career to be part of. In summary, as Bong had mentioned as well, there's a great deal of exciting challenges ahead. We will see a new renaissance in space in the years ahead and in some cases it's already begun. Billionaires like Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Sir Richard Branson, are in the game, stimulating new ideas and business models. Other private investors and startup companies, space companies are now coming in from all angles. The exponential advancement of technology and micro electronics now allows a potential for a plethora of small sat systems to possibly replace older satellites, the size of a Greyhound bus. It's getting better by the day and central to this conference, cybersecurity is paramount to our nation's critical infrastructure in space. So once again, thanks very much and I look forward to the further conversation. >> Steve, thank you very much. Space is cool, it's relevant, but it's important as you pointed out in your awesome story about how it impacts our life every day so I really appreciate that great story I'm glad you took the time to share that. You forgot the part about the drone coming over in the crime scene and, you know, mapping it out for you, but we'll add that to the story later, great stuff. My first question is, let's get into the conversations, because I think this is super important. President Armstrong, I'd like you to talk about some of the points that was teased out by Bong and Steve. One in particular is the comment around how military research was important in developing all these capabilities, which is impacting all of our lives through that story. It was the military research that has enabled a generation and generation of value for consumers. This is kind of this workforce conversation, there are opportunities now with research and grants, and this is a funding of innovation that is highly accelerated, it's happening very quickly. Can you comment on how research and the partnerships to get that funding into the universities is critical? >> Yeah, I really appreciate that and appreciate the comments of my colleagues. And it really boils down to me to partnerships, public-private partnerships, you have mentioned Northrop Grumman, but we have partnerships with Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Raytheon, Space X, JPL, also member of an organization called Business Higher Education Forum, which brings together university presidents and CEOs of companies. There's been focused on cybersecurity and data science and I hope that we can spill into cybersecurity and space. But those partnerships in the past have really brought a lot forward. At Cal Poly, as mentioned, we've been involved with CubeSat, we've have some secure work, and we want to plan to do more of that in the future. Those partnerships are essential, not only for getting the R&D done, but also the students, the faculty, whether they're master's or undergraduate can be involved with that work, they get that real life experience, whether it's on campus or virtually now during COVID or at the location with the partner, whether it may be governmental or industry, and then they're even better equipped to hit the ground running. And of course we'd love to see more of our students graduate with clearance so that they could do some of that secure work as well. So these partnerships are absolutely critical and it's also in the context of trying to bring the best and the brightest in all demographics of California and the U.S. into this field, to really be successful. So these partnerships are essential and our goal is to grow them just like I know our other colleagues in the CSU and the UC are planning to do. >> You know, just as my age I've seen, I grew up in the eighties and in college and they're in that system's generation and the generation before me, they really kind of pioneered the space that spawned the computer revolution. I mean, you look at these key inflection points in our lives, they were really funded through these kinds of real deep research. Bong, talk about that because, you know, we're living in an age of cloud and Bezos was mentioned, Elon Musk, Sir Richard Branson, you got new ideas coming in from the outside, you have an accelerated clock now in terms of the innovation cycles and so you got to react differently, you guys have programs to go outside of the defense department, how important is this because the workforce that are in schools and/or folks re-skilling are out there and you've been on both sides of the table, so share your thoughts. >> No, thanks Johnny, thanks for the opportunity to respond to, and that's what, you know, you hit on the nose back in the 80's, R&D and space especially was dominated by government funding, contracts and so on, but things have changed as Steve pointed out, allow these commercial entities funded by billionaires are coming out of the woodwork, funding R&D so they're taking the lead, so what we can do within the DOD in government is truly take advantage of the work they've done. And since they're, you know, paving the way to new approaches and new way of doing things and I think we can certainly learn from that and leverage off of that, saves us money from an R&D standpoint, while benefiting from the product that they deliver. You know, within DOD, talking about workforce development, you know, we have prioritized and we have policies now to attract and retain the talent we need. I had the folks do some research and it looks like from a cybersecurity or workforce standpoint, a recent study done, I think last year in 2019, found that the cyber security workforce gap in U.S. is nearing half a million people, even though it is a growing industry. So the pipeline needs to be strengthened, getting people through, you know, starting young and through college, like Professor Armstrong indicated because we're going to need them to be in place, you know, in a period of about maybe a decade or so. On top of that, of course, is the continuing issue we have with the gap with STEM students. We can't afford not have expertise in place to support all the things we're doing within DoD, not only DoD but the commercial side as well, thank you. >> How's the gap get filled, I mean, this is, again, you've got cybersecurity, I mean, with space it's a whole other kind of surface area if you will, it's not really surface area, but it is an IOT device if you think about it, but it does have the same challenges, that's kind of current and progressive with cybersecurity. Where's the gap get filled, Steve or President Armstrong, I mean, how do you solve the problem and address this gap in the workforce? What are some solutions and what approaches do we need to put in place? >> Steve, go ahead., I'll follow up. >> Okay, thanks, I'll let you correct me. (laughter) It's a really good question, and the way I would approach it is to focus on it holistically and to acknowledge it upfront and it comes with our teaching, et cetera, across the board. And from an industry perspective, I mean, we see it, we've got to have secure systems in everything we do, and promoting this and getting students at early ages and mentoring them and throwing internships at them is so paramount to the whole cycle. And that's kind of, it really takes a focused attention and we continue to use the word focus from an NSSA perspective. We know the challenges that are out there. There are such talented people in the workforce, on the government side, but not nearly enough of them and likewise on the industry side, we could use more as well, but when you get down to it, you know, we can connect dots, you know, the aspects that Professor Armstrong talked about earlier to where you continue to work partnerships as much as you possibly can. We hope to be a part of that network, that ecosystem if you will, of taking common objectives and working together to kind of make these things happen and to bring the power, not just of one or two companies, but of our entire membership thereabout. >> President Armstrong-- >> Yeah, I would also add it again, it's back to the partnerships that I talked about earlier, one of our partners is high schools and schools Fortune, Margaret Fortune, who worked in a couple of administrations in California across party lines and education, their fifth graders all visit Cal Poly, and visit our learned-by-doing lab. And you've got to get students interested in STEM at an early age. We also need the partnerships, the scholarships, the financial aid, so the students can graduate with minimal to no debt to really hit the ground running and that's exacerbated and really stress now with this COVID induced recession. California supports higher education at a higher rate than most states in the nation, but that has brought this year for reasons all understand due to COVID. And so our partnerships, our creativity, and making sure that we help those that need the most help financially, that's really key because the gaps are huge. As my colleagues indicated, you know, half a million jobs and I need you to look at the students that are in the pipeline, we've got to enhance that. And the placement rates are amazing once the students get to a place like Cal Poly or some of our other amazing CSU and UC campuses, placement rates are like 94%. Many of our engineers, they have jobs lined up a year before they graduate. So it's just going to take a key partnerships working together and that continued partnership with government local, of course, our state, the CSU, and partners like we have here today, both Steve and Bong so partnerships is the thing. >> You know, that's a great point-- >> I could add, >> Okay go ahead. >> All right, you know, the collaboration with universities is one that we put on lot of emphasis here, and it may not be well known fact, but just an example of national security, the AUC is a national centers of academic excellence in cyber defense works with over 270 colleges and universities across the United States to educate and certify future cyber first responders as an example. So that's vibrant and healthy and something that we ought to take advantage of. >> Well, I got the brain trust here on this topic. I want to get your thoughts on this one point, 'cause I'd like to define, you know, what is a public-private partnership because the theme that's coming out of the symposium is the script has been flipped, it's a modern era, things are accelerated, you've got security, so you've got all of these things kind of happenning it's a modern approach and you're seeing a digital transformation play out all over the world in business and in the public sector. So what is a modern public-private partnership and what does it look like today because people are learning differently. COVID has pointed out, which is that we're seeing right now, how people, the progressions of knowledge and learning, truth, it's all changing. How do you guys view the modern version of public-private partnership and some examples and some proof points, can you guys share that? We'll start with you, Professor Armstrong. >> Yeah, as I indicated earlier, we've had, and I could give other examples, but Northrop Grumman, they helped us with a cyber lab many years ago that is maintained directly, the software, the connection outside it's its own unit so the students can learn to hack, they can learn to penetrate defenses and I know that that has already had some considerations of space, but that's a benefit to both parties. So a good public-private partnership has benefits to both entities and the common factor for universities with a lot of these partnerships is the talent. The talent that is needed, what we've been working on for years of, you know, the undergraduate or master's or PhD programs, but now it's also spilling into upskilling and reskilling, as jobs, you know, folks who are in jobs today that didn't exist two years, three years, five years ago, but it also spills into other aspects that can expand even more. We're very fortunate we have land, there's opportunities, we have ONE Tech project. We are expanding our tech park, I think we'll see opportunities for that and it'll be adjusted due to the virtual world that we're all learning more and more about it, which we were in before COVID. But I also think that that person to person is going to be important, I want to make sure that I'm driving across a bridge or that satellite's being launched by the engineer that's had at least some in person training to do that in that experience, especially as a first time freshman coming on campus, getting that experience, expanding it as an adult, and we're going to need those public-private partnerships in order to continue to fund those at a level that is at the excellence we need for these STEM and engineering fields. >> It's interesting people and technology can work together and these partnerships are the new way. Bongs too with reaction to the modern version of what a public successful private partnership looks like. >> If I could jump in John, I think, you know, historically DOD's had a high bar to overcome if you will, in terms of getting rapid... pulling in new companies, miss the fall if you will, and not rely heavily on the usual suspects, of vendors and the like, and I think the DOD has done a good job over the last couple of years of trying to reduce that burden and working with us, you know, the Air Force, I think they're pioneering this idea around pitch days, where companies come in, do a two-hour pitch and immediately notified of, you know, of an a award, without having to wait a long time to get feedback on the quality of the product and so on. So I think we're trying to do our best to strengthen that partnership with companies outside of the main group of people that we typically use. >> Steve, any reaction, any comment to add? >> Yeah, I would add a couple and these are very excellent thoughts. It's about taking a little gamble by coming out of your comfort zone, you know, the world that Bong and I, Bong lives in and I used to live in the past, has been quite structured. It's really about, we know what the threat is, we need to go fix it, we'll design as if as we go make it happen, we'll fly it. Life is so much more complicated than that and so it's really, to me, I mean, you take an example of the pitch days of Bong talks about, I think taking a gamble by attempting to just do a lot of pilot programs, work the trust factor between government folks and the industry folks and academia, because we are all in this together in a lot of ways. For example, I mean, we just sent a paper to the white house at their request about, you know, what would we do from a workforce development perspective and we hope to embellish on this over time once the initiative matures, but we have a piece of it for example, is a thing we call "clear for success," getting back to president Armstrong's comments so at a collegiate level, you know, high, high, high quality folks are in high demand. So why don't we put together a program that grabs kids in their underclass years, identifies folks that are interested in doing something like this, get them scholarships, have a job waiting for them that they're contracted for before they graduate, and when they graduate, they walk with an SCI clearance. We believe that can be done, so that's an example of ways in which public-private partnerships can happen to where you now have a talented kid ready to go on day one. We think those kinds of things can happen, it just gets back down to being focused on specific initiatives, giving them a chance and run as many pilot programs as you can, like pitch days. >> That's a great point, it's a good segue. Go ahead, President Armstrong. >> I just want to jump in and echo both the Bong and Steve's comments, but Steve that, you know, your point of, you know our graduates, we consider them ready day one, well they need to be ready day one and ready to go secure. We totally support that and love to follow up offline with you on that. That's exciting and needed, very much needed more of it, some of it's happening, but we certainly have been thinking a lot about that and making some plans. >> And that's a great example, a good segue. My next question is kind of re-imagining these workflows is kind of breaking down the old way and bringing in kind of the new way, accelerate all kinds of new things. There are creative ways to address this workforce issue and this is the next topic, how can we employ new creative solutions because let's face it, you know, it's not the days of get your engineering degree and go interview for a job and then get slotted in and get the intern, you know, the programs and you'd matriculate through the system. This is multiple disciplines, cybersecurity points at that. You could be smart in math and have a degree in anthropology and be one of the best cyber talents on the planet. So this is a new, new world, what are some creative approaches that's going to work for you? >> Alright, good job, one of the things, I think that's a challenge to us is, you know, somehow we got me working for, with the government, sexy right? You know, part of the challenge we have is attracting the right level of skill sets and personnel but, you know, we're competing, oftentimes, with the commercial side, the gaming industry as examples is a big deal. And those are the same talents we need to support a lot of the programs that we have in DOD. So somehow we have do a better job to Steve's point about making the work within DOD, within the government, something that they would be interested early on. So attract them early, you know, I could not talk about Cal Poly's challenge program that they were going to have in June inviting high school kids really excited about the whole idea of space and cyber security and so on. Those are some of the things that I think we have to do and continue to do over the course of the next several years. >> Awesome, any other creative approaches that you guys see working or might be an idea, or just to kind of stoke the ideation out there? Internships, obviously internships are known, but like, there's got to be new ways. >> Alright, I think you can take what Steve was talking about earlier, getting students in high school and aligning them sometimes at first internship, not just between the freshman and sophomore year, but before they enter Cal Poly per se and they're involved. So I think that's absolutely key, getting them involved in many other ways. We have an example of upskilling or work redevelopment here in the central coast, PG&E Diablo nuclear plant that is going to decommission in around 2024. And so we have a ongoing partnership to work and reposition those employees for the future. So that's, you know, engineering and beyond but think about that just in the manner that you were talking about. So the upskilling and reskilling, and I think that's where, you know, we were talking about that Purdue University, other California universities have been dealing with online programs before COVID, and now with COVID so many more Faculty were pushed into that area, there's going to be a much more going and talk about workforce development in upskilling and reskilling, the amount of training and education of our faculty across the country in virtual and delivery has been huge. So there's always a silver linings in the cloud. >> I want to get your guys' thoughts on one final question as we end the segment, and we've seen on the commercial side with cloud computing on these highly accelerated environments where, you know, SAS business model subscription, and that's on the business side, but one of the things that's clear in this trend is technology and people work together and technology augments the people components. So I'd love to get your thoughts as we look at a world now, we're living in COVID, and Cal Poly, you guys have remote learning right now, it's at the infancy, it's a whole new disruption, if you will, but also an opportunity enable new ways to encollaborate, So if you look at people and technology, can you guys share your view and vision on how communities can be developed, how these digital technologies and people can work together faster to get to the truth or make a discovery, hire, develop the workforce, these are opportunities, how do you guys view this new digital transformation? >> Well, I think there's huge opportunities and just what we're doing with this symposium, we're filming this on Monday and it's going to stream live and then the three of us, the four of us can participate and chat with participants while it's going on. That's amazing and I appreciate you, John, you bringing that to this symposium. I think there's more and more that we can do. From a Cal Poly perspective, with our pedagogy so, you know, linked to learn by doing in-person will always be important to us, but we see virtual, we see partnerships like this, can expand and enhance our ability and minimize the in-person time, decrease the time to degree, enhance graduation rate, eliminate opportunity gaps for students that don't have the same advantages. So I think the technological aspect of this is tremendous. Then on the upskilling and reskilling, where employees are all over, they can re be reached virtually, and then maybe they come to a location or really advanced technology allows them to get hands on virtually, or they come to that location and get it in a hybrid format. So I'm very excited about the future and what we can do, and it's going to be different with every university, with every partnership. It's one size does not fit all, There's so many possibilities, Bong, I can almost imagine that social network that has a verified, you know, secure clearance. I can jump in, and have a little cloak of secrecy and collaborate with the DOD possibly in the future. But these are the kind of crazy ideas that are needed, your thoughts on this whole digital transformation cross-pollination. >> I think technology is going to be revolutionary here, John, you know, we're focusing lately on what we call visual engineering to quicken the pace of the delivery capability to warfighter as an example, I think AI, Machine Language, all that's going to have a major play in how we operate in the future. We're embracing 5G technologies, and the ability for zero latency, more IOT, more automation of the supply chain, that sort of thing, I think the future ahead of us is very encouraging, I think it's going to do a lot for national defense, and certainly the security of the country. >> Steve, your final thoughts, space systems are systems, and they're connected to other systems that are connected to people, your thoughts on this digital transformation opportunity. >> Such a great question and such a fun, great challenge ahead of us. Echoing my colleagues sentiments, I would add to it, you know, a lot of this has, I think we should do some focusing on campaigning so that people can feel comfortable to include the Congress to do things a little bit differently. You know, we're not attuned to doing things fast, but the dramatic, you know, the way technology is just going like crazy right now, I think it ties back to, hoping to convince some of our senior leaders and what I call both sides of the Potomac river, that it's worth taking this gamble, we do need to take some of these things you know, in a very proactive way. And I'm very confident and excited and comfortable that this is going to be a great time ahead and all for the better. >> You know, I always think of myself when I talk about DC 'cause I'm not a lawyer and I'm not a political person, but I always say less lawyers, more techies than in Congress and Senate, so (laughter)I always get in trouble when I say that. Sorry, President Armstrong, go ahead. >> Yeah, no, just one other point and Steve's alluded to this and Bong did as well, I mean, we've got to be less risk averse in these partnerships, that doesn't mean reckless, but we have to be less risk averse. And also, as you talk about technology, I have to reflect on something that happened and you both talked a bit about Bill Britton and his impact on Cal Poly and what we're doing. But we were faced a few years ago of replacing traditional data, a data warehouse, data storage, data center and we partnered with AWS and thank goodness, we had that in progress and it enhanced our bandwidth on our campus before COVID hit, and with this partnership with the digital transformation hub, so there's a great example where we had that going. That's not something we could have started, "Oh COVID hit, let's flip that switch." And so we have to be proactive and we also have to not be risk-averse and do some things differently. That has really salvaged the experience for our students right now, as things are flowing well. We only have about 12% of our courses in person, those essential courses and I'm just grateful for those partnerships that I have talked about today. >> And it's a shining example of how being agile, continuous operations, these are themes that expand the space and the next workforce needs to be built. Gentlemen, thank you very much for sharing your insights, I know Bong, you're going to go into the defense side of space in your other sessions. Thank you gentlemen, for your time, for a great session, I appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Thank you gentlemen. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, thank you all. I'm John Furey with The Cube here in Palo Alto, California covering and hosting with Cal Poly, the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, thanks for watching. (bright atmospheric music)

>>from Santa Clara, California. In the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the queue covering altitude 2020. Brought to you by aviatrix. >>Next panel is the aviatrix certified engineers, also known as Aces. This is the folks that are certified their engineering. They're building these new solutions. Please welcome Toby Foster Informatica Stacy Linear from terror data. And Jennifer read with Victor Davis to the stage. >>So we're gonna show you a jacket. Yeah, I get it. >>I was just gonna I was just gonna really rib you guys. See? Where's your jackets? And Jen's got the jacket on. Okay. >>Good. Love. The aviators. Aces, Pilot gear. They're above the clouds. Storage to new heights. So guys, aviatrix pace is love the name. I think it's great. Certified. This is all about getting things engineered. So that level of certification I want to get into that. But first take us through the day in the life on a SAS. And just to point out, Stacy's a squad leader. So he's He's like Squadron leader, quadrant leader, quadrant leader. So it's got a bunch of pieces underneath him, but share your perspective day in the life. We'll start with you. >>Sure, So I have actually a whole team that works for me both in the in the North America, both in the U. S. And in Mexico. And so I'm eagerly working to get them certified as well, so I can become a squad leader myself. But it's important because one of the critical gaps that we found is people having the networking background. Because there you graduate from college and you have a lot of computer science background. You can program. We've got python, but now working and packets they just don't get. And so just taking them through all of the processes that it's really necessary to understand when you're troubleshooting is really critical. And, um, because you're going to get an issue where you need to figure out where, exactly is that happening on the network, you know, is by my issue just in a vpc is on the instant side is a security group or is it going on prim? And is this something actually embedded within Amazon itself? I mean, I trouble shot an issue for about six months going back and forth with Amazon, and it was the VW VPN because they were auto scaling on two sides, and we ended up having to pull out the Cisco's and put in aviatrix so I could just say OK, it's fixed and actually actually help the application teams get to that and get it solved. But I'm taking a lot of junior people and getting them through that certification process so they can understand and see the network The way I see the network, I mean, look, I've been doing this for 25 years, but I got out when I went in the Marine Corps. That's what I did and coming out The network is still the network, but people don't get the same training they get. They got >>just so he just write some software that takes care of itself, but we'll come back to that. I want to come back to that problem solve with Amazon, but I think the only thing I have to >>add to that is that it's always the network as long as I've been in. Networking has always been the network's fault. If you're in the I'm even to this day, you know, still, networks fault, and part of being a network guy is that you need to prove when it is and when It's not your fault. And that means you need to know a little bit about 100 different things. Make that >>And now you got a full stack. Dev Ops, you know, a lot more time. Another 100 times are changing your squadron leader. I get that right. What is? What is the squadron leader first? Could you describe what it is? I think probably just leading off with network components of it. But they from my perspective when you think about what you asked them was it's about no issues and the escalations off my days like that. That's a good outcome. That's a good day. Is a good day's a good day for you. Mention the Amazon. This brings up a good point when you have these new waves come in. You have a lot of new things. New use cases, a lot of the finger point against that guy's problem that girls problems. So what? How do you solve that? And how do you get the young guns up to speed? Is there training is that this with a certification comes in, >>whatever the certification is really going to come in I know when we, uh, we got together at reinvent one of the questions that that we had with with Steven the team was What? What should our certification look like? You know, she would just be teaching about what aviatrix troubleshooting brings to bear. But what should that be like? And I think Toby and I was like, No, no, no, no, that's going a little too high. We need to get really low because the better someone can get actually understanding what's actually happening in the network and where to actually troubleshoot the problem, how to step back each of those processes. Because without that, it's just a big black box and they don't know, you know, because everything is abstracted in Amazon and a Net and Azure and Google, it's abstracted in there. These virtual gateways they have VPN is that you just don't have the logs on is you just don't know. And so then what tools can you put in front of them of where they can look because there are full logs? Well, as long as they turned on the flow logs when I built it, you know, and there's like each one of those little things that well, if they had decided to do that when they built it, it's there. But if you can come in later to really supplement that with training to actual troubleshoot and do a packet capture here as it's going through the teaching them how to read act. Even >>so, we were talking before we came on up on stage about your career. You've been networking all your time, and then, you know, you're no mentoring a lot of younger people. How is that going? Because the people who come in fresh, they don't have all the old war stories they don't talk about, You know, it's never fall. I walk in bare feet in the snow when I was your age, so easy now, right? They say, What's your take on how you train the young piece? >>So I've noticed two things. One is that they are up to speed a lot faster in generalities of networking. They can tell you what network is in high school level now where I didn't learn that until midway through my career, and they're learning it faster, but they don't necessarily understand why it's that way here, you know, everybody thinks that it's always slash 24 for a submit, and they don't understand why you can break it down. Smaller. What? It's really necessary. So the ramp up speed is much faster for these guys that are coming in, but they don't understand why. And they need some of that background knowledge to see where it's coming from. And why is it important? And that's old guys. That's where we thrive. >>Jennifer, you mentioned you got in from the Marines helps. But when you got into networking, how what was it like that? And compare it now? Almost like we heard earlier. Static versus Dynamic. Don't be static. And then you just set the network. You got a perimeter? >>Yeah. No, there was no such thing. Yeah, no. So, back in the day, I mean, yeah, I mean, we had banyan vines for email, you know, we had token ring and I had to set up token ring networks and figure out why that didn't work. Because how many of things were actually sharing it, But then actually, just cutting fiber and running fiber cables and dropping them over, you know, shelters to plug them in, and Oh, crap. They swung it too hard and shattered. And I got a great polish this thing and actually shoot like to see if it works. I mean, that was the network crypt. Five cat, five cables to run an Ethernet, you know? And then from that to set network switches. Dumb switches like those were the most common ones you had then, actually configuring routers and, you know, logging into a Cisco router and actually knowing how to configure that. And it was funny because I had gone all the way up. It was a software product manager for a while, So I've gone all the way up the stack. And then, ah, two and 1/2 3 years ago, I came across, too, to work with NTT Group that became Victor Davis. But we went to help one of our customers, Avis, and it was like, Okay, so we need to fix the network. Okay, I haven't done this in 20 years, but all right, let's get to it, you know, because it really fundamentally does not change. It's still the network. I mean, I've had people tell me Well, you know, when we go to containers, we will not have to worry about the network. And I'm like, Yeah, you don't I >>dio. And then with this with program ability is really interesting. So I think this brings up the certification. What are some of the new things that people should be aware of that come in with the aviatrix? A certification? What are some of the highlights? Can you guys share some of the highlights around certifications? >>I think some of the importance is that its it doesn't need to be vendor specific for network generality or basic networking knowledge. And instead of learning how Cisco does something or how Palo Alto does something, we need to understand how and why it works as a basic model and then understand how each vendor has gone about that problem and solve it in a general. That's true in Multi Cloud as well. You can't learn how cloud networking works without understanding how AWS and Measure and GC P r. All slightly the same, but slightly different and some things work and some things don't. I think that's probably the number one take. >>I think having a certification across clouds is really valuable because we heard the global outside of the business issues. What does it mean to do? That code is that networking is the configurations that aviatrix what is the state matrix is a certification, but what is it about the multi cloud that makes it multi networking and multi vendor? But the >>easy answer is yes, >>yes, it's >>all got to be a general. Let's get your hands and you have to be >>right. And it takes experience because it's every every cloud vendor has their own certification. Um, whether that stops and, um, advanced networking and events, security or whatever it might be. Yeah, they can take the test, but they have no idea how to figure out what's wrong with that system in the same thing with any certification. But it's really getting your hands in there. And actually having to troubleshoot the problems, you know, actually work the problem, you know, and calm down. It's going to be OK because I don't know how many calls I've been on or even had aviatrix join me on. It's like, Okay, so everyone calm down. Let's figure out what's happening. It's like we've looked at that screen three times looking at it again. It's not going to solve that problem, right, But at the same time, remaining calm. But knowing that it really is, I'm getting a packet from here to go over here. It's not working. So what could be the problem, you know, and actually stepping them through those scenarios. But that's like, you only get that by having to do it, you know, and and seeing it and going through it. And >>I have a question. So, you know, I just see it. We started this program maybe six months ago. We're seeing a huge amount of interest. I mean, where oversubscribed on all the training sessions, we've got people flying from around the country, even with Corona virus flying to go to Seattle to go to these events were over >>subscribed. Good is that originally they would put their Yeah. Is >>that something that you see in your organizations? Are you recommending that two people do you see? I mean, I'm just I guess I'm surprised. I'm not surprised, but I'm really surprised by the demand, if you would of this multi cloud network certification. Is there really isn't anything like that? Is that something you guys could comment on? That do you see the same things in your organization I see from >>my side Because we operate in a multi cloud environments that really helps. It's beneficial. Yeah, >>I think I would add that, um, networking guys have always needed to use certifications to prove that they know what they know. It's not good enough to say. Yeah, I know. I p addresses are I know how the network works and a couple little check marks. Our little letters by your helps give you validity. So even in our team, we can say, Hey, you know, we're using these certifications to know that you know enough of the basics and enough of the understandings that you have the tools necessary, >>right? So I guess my final question for you guys is why and a certification is relevant. And then second part is share with Livestream folks who aren't yet a certified or might want to jump in to be aviator certified engineers. Why is it important? So why is it relevant? And why should someone want to be a certified engineer? >>I think my V is a little different. I think certification comes from proving that you have the knowledge not proving that you get a certification to get. I mean, they're backwards. So when you've got the training and the understanding in the you use that to prove and you can, like, grow your certification list with it versus studying for a test to get a certification and have no understanding of >>that. So that who is the right person that look at this and saying I'm qualified is a network engineer. Is that a Dev ops person? What your view? Is it a certain >>you know, I think Cloud is really the answer. It's the as we talked like the edge is getting eroded. So is the network definition getting eroded? We're getting more and more of some network. Some develop some security lots and lots of security. Because network is so involved in so many of them, that's just the next progression. >>You want to add something there, I would say expand that to more automation engineers because we have those now, so I'm probably extended >>Well, I think the training classes themselves are helpful, especially the entry level ones for people who maybe quote unquote cloud architects. But I've never done anything in networking for them to understand why we need those things to really work, Whether or not they go through it. Eventually get a certification is something different. But I really think fundamentally understanding how these things work. It makes them a better architect. Make some better application developer, but even more so as you deploy more of your applications into the cloud. Really getting an understanding even from our people have tradition down on Prem networking. They can understand how that's gonna work in the cloud. >>I know we've got just under 30 seconds left. I want to get one more question than just one more for the folks watching that are maybe younger than I don't have. The networking training from your experience is, each of you can answer. Why should they know about networking? What's the benefit? What's in it for them? Motivate them, share some insights and why they should go with the deeper and networking space we'll start with. You know, I would say it's probably fundamental right after delivery solutions networking. Use the very top. I >>would say. If you fundamental of an operating system running on a machine, how those machines talk together, um, is a fundamental change is something that starts from the base and work your way up. >>Well, I think it's a challenge because you've come from top down. Now you're going to start looking from bottom up, and you want those different systems to cross, communicate and say you built something and your overlapping eyepiece space. Not that that doesn't happen. But how can I actually make that still operate without having to re? I re platform? It's like those challenges, like those younger developers or Cisco engineers can really start to get their hands around and understand those complexities and bring that forward in their careers. >>And, you know, the pipes are working plumbing. >>That's right. >>And they know how it works. How to code it. >>That's right. >>Awesome. Thank you, guys for great insights. Ace certified engineers, also known as aces, give a round of applause. >>Yeah, Yeah, that's great. Thank you. Okay, alright, that >>concludes my portion. Thank you, Steve. Thanks for having >>on. Thank you very much. That was fantastic. Everybody >>running with John Furrier. Yeah. So Great event. Great event. I'm >>not gonna take along with that. We got lunch outside for the people here. Just a couple of things. I just called action, right? So we saw the aces. You know, for those of you out of the stream here, become a certified. It's great for your career. Is great for not knowledge is is fantastic. It's not just an aviatrix thing. It's going to teach you about cloud networking, multi cloud networking with a little bit of aviatrix, exactly what the Cisco CC IE program was for I p Network. That type of the thing that's number one second thing is, is is learn, right? So there's a There's a link up there for the for to join the community, get like I started this. This is a community. This is the kickoff to this community, and it's a movement. So go to what may be community dot IBM dot com. Starting a community of multi cloud. So you get trained learn. I'd say the next thing is we're doing over 100 seminars in across the United States and also starting into Europe. Soon we will come out and we'll actually spend a couple hours and talk about architecture and talk about those beginning things. For those of you on the you know, on the live stream in here as well. You know, we're coming to a city near you. Go to one of those events. It's a great way to network with other people that are in the industry as well is to start to learn and get on that multi cloud journey. And then I'd say the last thing is, you know, we haven't talked a lot about what aviatrix does here, and that's intentional. We want you, you know, leaving with wanting to gnome or and schedule get with us and schedule a multi our architecture workshop sessions. So we we sit down with customers and we talk about where they're at in that journey and, more importantly, where they're going and define that end state architecture from networking, compute storage, everything and everything you've heard. Today. Every panel kept talking about architecture, talking about operations. Those are the types of things that we saw. We help. You could define that canonical architecture that system architecture, that's yours. So for so many of our customers, they have three by five plotted lucid charts, architecture, drawings, and it's the customer name slash aviatrix our network architecture, and they put it on the whiteboard that's what we and that's the most valuable thing they get from us. So this becomes there 20 year network architecture, drawing that. They don't do anything without talking us. And look at that architecture. That's what we do in these multi hour workshop sessions with customers. And that's super super powerful. So if you're interested, definitely call us. And let's schedule that with our team. So anyway, I just want to thank everybody on the livestream. Thank everybody here. Hopefully it was It was very useful. I think it waas and join the movement. And for those of you here, join us for lunch and thank you very much. >>Yeah, >>yeah, yeah.

ladies and gentlemen this is your captain speaking we will soon be taking off on our way to altitude please keep your seatbelts fastened and remain in your seats we will be experiencing turbulence until we are above the clouds ladies and gentlemen we are now cruising at altitude sit back and enjoy the ride [Music] altitude is a community of thought leaders and pioneers cloud architects and enlightened network engineers who have individually and are now collectively leading their own IT teams and the industry on a path to lift cloud networking above the clouds empowering Enterprise IT to architect design and control their own cloud network regardless of the turbulent clouds beneath them it's time to gain altitude ladies and gentlemen Steve Mulaney president and CEO of aviatrix the leader of multi cloud networking [Music] [Applause] all right good morning everybody here in Santa Clara as well as to the what millions of people watching the livestream worldwide welcome to altitude 2020 alright so we've got a fantastic event today really excited about the speakers that we have today and the experts that we have and really excited to get started so one of the things I wanted to just share was this is not a one-time event this is not a one-time thing that we're gonna do sorry for the aviation analogy but you know sherry way aviatrix means female pilot so everything we do as an aviation theme this is a take-off for a movement this isn't an event this is a take-off of a movement a multi-cloud networking movement and community that we're inviting all of you to become part of and-and-and why we're doing that is we want to enable enterprises to rise above the clouds so to speak and build their network architecture regardless of which public cloud they're using whether it's one or more of these public clouds so the good news for today there's lots of good news but this is one good news is we don't have any powerpoint presentations no marketing speak we know that marketing people have their own language we're not using any of that in those sales pitches right so instead what are we doing we're going to have expert panels we've got Simone Rashard Gartner here we've got 10 different network architects cloud architects real practitioners they're going to share their best practices and there are real-world experiences on their journey to the multi cloud so before we start and everybody know what today is in the u.s. it's Super Tuesday I'm not gonna get political but Super Tuesday there was a bigger Super Tuesday that happened 18 months ago and maybe eight six employees know what I'm talking about 18 months ago on a Tuesday every enterprise said I'm gonna go to the cloud and so what that was was the Cambrian explosion for cloud for the price so Frank kibrit you know what a Cambrian explosion is he had to look it up on Google 500 million years ago what happened there was an explosion of life where it went from very simple single-cell organisms to very complex multi-celled organisms guess what happened 18 months ago on a Tuesday I don't really know why but every enterprise like I said all woke up that day and said now I'm really gonna go to cloud and that Cambrian explosion of cloud went meant that I'm moving from very simple single cloud single use case simple environment to a very complex multi cloud complex use case environment and what we're here today is we're gonna go and dress that and how do you handle those those those complexities and when you look at what's happening with customers right now this is a business transformation right people like to talk about transitions this is a transformation and it's actually not just the technology transformation it's a business transformation it started from the CEO and the boards of enterprise customers where they said I have an existential threat to the survival of my company if you look at every industry who they're worried about is not the other 30 year old enterprise what they're worried about is the three year old enterprise that's leveraging cloud that's leveraging AI and that's where they fear that they're going to actually get wiped out right and so because of this existential threat this is CEO lead this is board led this is not technology led it is mandated in the organization's we are going to digitally transform our enterprise because of this existential threat and the movement to cloud is going to enable us to go do that and so IT is now put back in charge if you think back just a few years ago in cloud it was led by DevOps it was led by the applications and it was like I said before their Cambrian explosion is very simple now with this Cambrian explosion and enterprises getting very serious and mission critical they care about visibility they care about control they care about compliance conformance everything governance IT is in charge and and and that's why we're here today to discuss that so what we're going to do today is much of things but we're gonna validate this journey with customers did they see the same thing we're gonna validate the requirements for multi-cloud because honestly I've never met an enterprise that is not going to be multi-cloud many are one cloud today but they all say I need to architect my network for multiple clouds because that's just what the network is there to support the applications and the applications will run and whatever cloud it runs best in and you have to be prepared for that the second thing is is architecture again with IT in charge you architecture matters whether it's your career whether it's how you build your house it doesn't matter horrible architecture your life is horrible forever good architecture your life is pretty good so we're gonna talk about architecture and how the most fundamental and critical part of that architecture and that basic infrastructure is the network if you don't get that right nothing works right way more important and compute way more important than storm dense storage network is the foundational element of your infrastructure then we're going to talk about day 2 operations what does that mean well day 1 is one day of your life that's who you wire things up they do and beyond I tell everyone in networking and IT it's every day of your life and if you don't get that right your life is bad forever and so things like operations visibility security things like that how do I get my operations team to be able to handle this in an automated way because it's not just about configuring it in the cloud it's actually about how do I operationalize it and that's a huge benefit that we bring as aviatrix and then the last thing we're going to talk and it's the last panel we have I always say you can't forget about the humans right so all this technology all these things that we're doing it's always enabled by the humans at the end of the day if the humans fight it it won't get deployed and we have a massive skills gap in cloud and we also have a massive skill shortage you have everyone in the world trying to hire cloud network architects right there's just not enough of them going around so at aviatrix we as leaders do we're gonna help address that issue and try to create more people we created a program and we call the ACE program again an aviation theme it stands for aviatrix certified engineer very similar to what Cisco did with CCI ease where Cisco taught you about IP networking a little bit of Cisco we're doing the same thing we're gonna teach network architects about multi-cloud networking and architecture and yeah you'll get a little bit of aviatrix training in there but this is the missing element for people's careers and also within their organization so we're gonna we're gonna go talk about that so great great event great show when to try to keep it moving I'd next want to introduce my my host he's the best in the business you guys have probably seen him multiple million times he's the co CEO and co-founder of tube Jon Fourier okay awesome great great speech they're awesome I'd totally agree with everything you said about the explosion happening and I'm excited here at the heart of Silicon Valley to have this event it's a special digital event with the cube and aviatrix were we live streaming to millions of people as you said maybe not a million maybe not really take this program to the world this is a little special for me because multi-cloud is the hottest wave and cloud and cloud native networking is fast becoming the key engine of the innovation so we got an hour and a half of action-packed programming we have a customer panel two customer panels before that Gartner is going to come on talk about the industry we have a global system integrators we talk about how they're advising and building these networks and cloud native networking and then finally the Aces the aviatrix certified engineer is gonna talk more about their certifications and the expertise needed so let's jump right in and let's ask someone rashard to come on stage from Gartner check it all up [Applause] okay so kicking things off sitting started gartner the industry experts on cloud really kind of more to your background talk about your background before you got the gardener yeah before because gardener was a chief network architect of a fortune five companies with thousands of sites over the world and I've been doing everything and IT from a C programmer in a 92 a security architect to a network engineer to finally becoming a network analyst so you rode the wave now you're covering at the marketplace with hybrid cloud and now moving quickly to multi cloud is really was talking about cloud natives been discussed but the networking piece is super important how do you see that evolving well the way we see Enterprise adapt in cloud first thing you do about networking the initial phases they either go in a very ad hoc way is usually led by non non IT like a shadow I to your application people are some kind of DevOps team and it's it just goes as it's completely unplanned decreed VP sees left and right with different account and they create mesh to manage them and their direct connect or Express route to any of them so that's what that's a first approach and on the other side again it within our first approach you see what I call the lift and shift way we see like enterprise IT trying to basically replicate what they have in a data center in the cloud so they spend a lot of time planning doing Direct Connect putting Cisco routers and f5 and Citrix and any checkpoint Palo Alto divides that the audinate that are sent removing that to that cloud and I ask you the aha moments gonna come up a lot of our panels is where people realize that it's a multi cloud world I mean they either inherit clouds certainly they're using public cloud and on-premises is now more relevant than ever when's that aha moment that you're seeing where people go well I got to get my act together and get on this well the first but even before multi-cloud so these two approach the first one like the ad hoc way doesn't scale at some point idea has to save them because they don't think about the two they don't think about operations they have a bunch of VPC and multiple clouds the other way that if you do the left and shift wake they cannot take any advantages of the cloud they lose elasticity auto-scaling pay by the drink these feature of agility features so they both realize okay neither of these ways are good so I have to optimize that so I have to have a mix of what I call the cloud native services within each cloud so they start adapting like other AWS constructor is your construct or Google construct then that's what I call the optimal phase but even that they realize after that they are very different all these approaches different the cloud are different identities is completely difficult to manage across clouds I mean for example AWS has accounts there's subscription and in adarand GCP their projects it's a real mess so they realize well I can't really like concentrate use the cloud the cloud product and every cloud that doesn't work so I have I'm doing multi cloud I like to abstract all of that I still wanna manage the cloud from an API to interview I don't necessarily want to bring my incumbent data center products but I have to do that in a more API driven cloud they're not they're not scaling piece and you were mentioning that's because there's too many different clouds yes that's the piece there so what are they doing whether they really building different development teams as its software what's the solution well this the solution is to start architecting the cloud that's the third phase I call that the multi cloud architect phase where they have to think about abstraction that works across cloud fact even across one cloud it might not scale as well if you start having like 10,000 security group in AWS that doesn't scale you have to manage that if you have multiple VPC it doesn't scale you need a third party identity provider so it barely scales within one cloud if you go multiple cloud it gets worse and worse see way in here what's your thoughts I thought we said this wasn't gonna be a sales pitch for aviatrix you just said exactly what we do so anyway I'm just a joke what do you see in terms of where people are in that multi-cloud so a lot of people you know everyone I talked to started in one cloud right but then they look and they say okay but I'm now gonna move to adjourn I'm gonna move do you see a similar thing well yes they are moving but they're not there's not a lot of application that use a tree cloud at once they move one app in deserve one app in individuals one get happen Google that's what we see so far okay yeah I mean one of the mistakes that people think is they think multi-cloud no one is ever gonna go multi-cloud for arbitrage they're not gonna go and say well today I might go into Azure because I got a better rate of my instance that's never do you agree with that's never going to happen what I've seen with enterprise is I'm gonna put the workload in the app the app decides where it runs best that may be a sure maybe Google and for different reasons and they're gonna stick there and they're not gonna move let me ask you infrastructure has to be able to support from a networking team be able to do that do you agree with that yes I agree and one thing is also very important is connecting to that cloud is kind of the easiest thing so though while their network part of the cloud connectivity to the cloud is kind of simple I agree IPSec VP and I reckon Express that's a simple part what's difficult and even a provisioning part is easy you can use terraform and create v pieces and v nets across which free cloud providers right what's difficult is the day-to-day operations so it's what to find a to operations what is that what does that actually mean this is the day-to-day operations after you know the natural let's add an app let's add a server let's troubleshoot a problem so so your life something changes how would he do so what's the big concerns I want to just get back to this cloud native networking because everyone kind of knows with cloud native apps are that's been a hot trend what is cloud native networking how do you how do you guys define that because that seems to be the oddest part of the multi cloud wave that's coming as cloud native networking well there's no you know official garner definition but I can create one on and if another spot is do it I just want to leverage the cloud construct and a cloud epi I don't want to have to install like like for example the first version was let's put a virtual router that doesn't even understand and then the cloud environment right if I have if I have to install a virtual machine it has to be cloud aware it has to understand the security group if it's a router it has to be programmable to the cloud API and and understand the cloud environment you know one things I hear a lot from either see Saussure CIOs or CXOs in general is this idea of I'm definitely on going API so it's been an API economy so API is key on that point but then they say okay I need to essentially have the right relationship with my suppliers aka clouds you call it above the clouds so the question is what do i do from an architecture standpoint do I just hire more developers and have different teams because you mentioned that's a scale point how do you solve this this problem of okay I got AWS I got GCP or Azure or whatever do I just have different teams or just expose api's where is that optimization where's the focus well I take what you need from an android point of view is a way a control plane across the three clouds and be able to use the api of the cloud to build networks but also to troubleshoot them and do they to operation so you need a view across a three cloud that takes care of routing connectivity that's you know that's the aviatrix plug of you right there so so how do you see so again your Gartner you you you you see the industry you've been a network architect how do you see this this plane out what are the what are the legacy incumbent client-server on-prem networking people gonna do well these versus people like aviatrix well how do you see that plane out well obviously all the incumbent like Arista cisco juniper NSX right they want to basically do the lift and ship or they want to bring and you know VM I want to bring in a section that cloud they call that NSX everywhere and cisco monks bring you star and the cloud recall that each guy anywhere right so everyone what and and then there's cloud vision for my red star and contrail is in the cloud so they just want to bring the management plane in the cloud but it's still based most of them it's still based on putting a VM them in controlling them right you you extend your management console to the cloud that's not truly cloud native right cloud native you almost have to build it from scratch we like to call that cloud naive clown that so close one letter yeah so that was a big con surgeon reinvent take the tea out of cloud native it's cloud naive that went super viral you guys got t-shirts now I know you love but yeah but that really ultimately is kind of double edged sword you got to be you can be naive on the on the architecture side and rolling out but also suppliers are can be naive so how would you define who's naive and who's not well in fact they're evolving as well so for example in Cisco you it's a little bit more native than other ones because they're really scr in the cloud you can't you you really like configure API so the cloud and NSX is going that way and so is Arista but they're incumbent they have their own tools is difficult for them they're moving slowly so it's much easier to start from scratch Avenue like and you know a network happiness started a few years ago there's only really two aviatrix was the first one they've been there for at least three or four years and there's other ones like al kira for example that just started now that doing more connectivity but they wanna create an overlay network across the cloud and start doing policies and trying abstracting all the clouds within one platform so I gotta ask you I interviewed an executive at VMware Sanjay Pune and he said to me at RSA last week oh the only b2 networking vendors left Cisco and VMware what's your respect what's your response to that obviously I mean when you have these waves as new brands that emerge like aviation others though I think there'll be a lot of startups coming out of the woodwork how do you respond to that comment well there's still a data center there's still like a lot of action on campus and there's the one but from the cloud provisioning and clown networking in general I mean they're behind I think you know in fact you don't even need them to start to it you can if you're small enough you can just keep if you're in AWS you can user it with us construct they have to insert themselves I mean they're running behind they're all certainly incumbents I love the term Andy Jesse's that Amazon Web Services uses old guard new guard to talk about the industry what does the new guard have to do the new and new brands that emerge in is it be more DevOps oriented neck Nets a cops is that net ops is the programmability these are some of the key discussions we've been having what's your view on how you this programmability their most important part is they have to make the network's simple for the dev teams and from you cannot have that you cannot make a phone call and get every line in two weeks anymore so if you move to that cloud you have to make the cloud construct as simple enough so that for example a dev team could say okay I'm going to create this VP see but this VP see automatically being associate to your account you cannot go out on the internet you have to go to the transit VP see so there's a lot of action in terms of the I am part and you have to put the control around them too so to make it as simple as possible you guys both I mean you're the COC aviatrix but also you guys a lot of experience going back to networking going back to I call the OSI mace which for us old folks know what that means but you guys know what this means I want to ask you the question as you look at the future of networking here a couple of objectives oh the cloud guys they got networking we're all set with them how do you respond to the fact that networking is changing and the cloud guys have their own networking what some of the pain points that's going on premises and these enterprises so are they good with the clouds what needs what are the key things that's going on in networking that makes it more than just the cloud networking what's your take on well as I said earlier that once you you could easily provision in the cloud you can easily connect to that cloud is when you start troubleshooting application in the cloud and try to scale so this that's where the problem occurs see what you're taking on it and you'll hear from the from the customers that that we have on stage and I think what happens is all the cloud the clouds by definition designed to the 80/20 rule which means they'll design 80% of the basic functionality and they'll lead to 20% extra functionality that of course every Enterprise needs they'll leave that to ISVs like aviatrix because why because they have to make money they have a service and they can't have huge instances for functionality that not everybody needs so they have to design to the common and that's they all do it right they have to and then the extra the problem is that Cambrian explosion that I talked about with enterprises that's holy that's what they need that they're the ones who need that extra 20% so that's that's what I see is is there's always gonna be that extra functionality the in in an automated and simple way that you talked about but yet powerful with up with the visible in control that they expect of on prep that that's that kind of combination that yin and the yang that people like us are providing some I want to ask you were gonna ask some of the cloud architect customer panels it's the same question this pioneers doing some work here and there's also the laggers who come in behind the early adopters what's gonna be the tipping point what are some of those conversations that the cloud architects are having out there or what's the signs that they need to be on this multi cloud or cloud native networking trend what are some the signals that are going on in their environment what are some of the thresholds or things that are going on that there can pay attention to well well once they have application and multiple cloud and they have they get wake up at 2:00 in the morning to troubleshoot them they don't know it's important so I think that's the that's where the robber will hit the road but as I said it's easier to prove it it's ok it's 80s it's easy use a transit gateway put a few V PCs and you're done and use create some presents like equinox and do Direct Connect and Express route with Azure that looks simple is the operations that's when they'll realize ok now I need to understand our car networking works I also need a tool that give me visibility and control not button tell me that I need to understand the basic underneath it as well what are some of the day in the life scenarios that you envision happening with multi Bob because you think about what's happening it kind of has that same vibe of interoperability choice multi-vendor because you have multi clouds essentially multi vendor these are kind of old paradigms that we've lived through the client server and internet working wave what are some of those scenarios of success and that might be possible it would be possible with multi cloud and cloud native networking well I think once you have good enough visibility to satisfy your customers you know not only like to keep the service running an application running but to be able to provision fast enough I think that's what you want to achieve small final question advice for folks watching on the live stream if they're sitting there as a cloud architect or a CXO what's your advice to them right now in this more because honestly public cloud check hybrid cloud they're working on that that gets on-premise is done now multi clouds right behind it what's your advice the first thing they should do is really try to understand cloud networking for each of their cloud providers and then understand the limitation and is what there's cloud service provider offers enough or you need to look to a third party but you don't look at a third party to start with especially an incumbent one so it's tempting to say on and I have a bunch of f5 experts nothing against that five I'm going to bring my five in the cloud when you can use a needle be that automatically understand Easy's and auto scaling and so on and you understand that's much simpler but sometimes you need you have five because you have requirements you have like AI rules and that kind of stuff that you use for years you cannot do it's okay I have requirement and that met I'm going to use legacy stuff and then you have to start thinking okay what about visibility control about the tree cloud but before you do that you have to understand the limitation of the existing cloud providers so first try to be as native as possible until things don't work after that you can start taking multi-cloud great insight somewhat thank you for coming someone in charge with Gardner thanks for sharing informatica is known as the leading enterprise cloud data management company we are known for being the top in our industry in at least five different products over the last few years especially we've been transforming into a cloud model which allows us to work better with the trends of our customers in order to see agile and effective in the business you need to make sure that your products and your offerings are just as relevant in all these different clouds than what you're used to and what you're comfortable with one of the most difficult challenges we've always had is that because we're a data company we're talking about data that a customer owns some of that data may be in the cloud some of that data may be on Prem some of that data may be actually in their data center in another region or even another country and having that data connect back to our systems that are located in the cloud has always been a challenge when we first started our engagement with aviatrix we only had one plan that was Amazon it wasn't till later that a jerk came up and all of a sudden we found hey the solution we already had in place for her aviatrix already working in Amazon and now works in Missouri as well before we knew what GCP came up but it really wasn't a big deal for us because we already had the same solution in Amazon and integer now just working in GCP by having a multi cloud approach we have access to all three of them but more commonly it's not just one it's actually integrations between multiple we have some data and ensure that we want to integrate with Amazon we have some data in GCP that we want to bring over to a data Lake assure one of the nice things about aviatrix is that it gives a very simple interface that my staff can understand and use and manage literally hundreds of VPNs around the world and while talking to and working with our customers who are literally around the world now that we've been using aviatrix for a couple years we're actually finding that even problems that we didn't realize we had were actually solved even before we came across the problem and it just worked cloud companies as a whole are based on reputation we need to be able to protect our reputation and part of that reputation is being able to protect our customers and being able to protect more importantly our customers data aviatrix has been helpful for us in that we only have one system that can manage this whole huge system in a simple easy direct model aviatrix is directly responsible for helping us secure and manage our customers not only across the world but across multiple clouds users don't have to be VPN or networking experts in order to be able to use the system all the members on my team can manage it all the members regardless of their experience can do different levels of it one of the unexpected advantages of aviatrix is that I don't have to sell it to my management the fact that we're not in the news at 3 o'clock in the morning or that we don't have to get calls in the middle of the night no news is good news especially in networking things that used to take weeks to build or done in hours I think the most important thing about a matrix is it provides me a Beatrix gives me a consistent model that I can use across multiple regions multiple clouds multiple customers okay welcome back to altitude 2020 for the folks on the livestream I'm John for Steve Mulaney with CEO of aviatrix for our first of two customer panels on cloud with cloud network architects we got Bobby Willoughby they gone Luis Castillo of National Instruments David should Nick with fact set guys welcome to the stage for this digital event come on up [Applause] [Music] hey good to see you thank you okay okay customer panelist is my favorite part we get to hear the real scoop gets a gardener given this the industry overview certainly multi clouds very relevant and cloud native networking is the hot trend with a live stream out there and the digital event so guys let's get into it the journey is you guys are pioneering this journey of multi cloud and cloud native networking and is soon gonna be a lot more coming so we want to get into the journey what's it been like is it real you got a lot of scar tissue and what are some of the learnings yeah absolutely so multi cloud is whether or not we we accepted as a network engineers is is a reality like Steve said about two years ago companies really decided to to just to just bite the bullet and and and move there whether or not whether or not we we accept that fact we need to now create a consistent architecture across across multiple clouds and that that is challenging without orchestration layers as you start managing different different tool sets and different languages across different clouds so that's it's really important that to start thinking about that guys on the other panelists here there's different phases of this journey some come at it from a networking perspective some come in from a problem troubleshooting which what's your experiences yeah so from a networking perspective it's been incredibly exciting it's kind of a once-in-a-generation 'el opportunity to look at how you're building out your network you can start to embrace things like infrastructure as code that maybe your peers on the systems teams have been doing for years but it just never really worked on bram so it's really it's really exciting to look at all the opportunities that we have and then all the interesting challenges that come up that you that you get to tackle an effect said you guys are mostly AWS right yep right now though we're we are looking at multiple clouds we have production workloads running in multiple clouds today but a lot of the initial work has been with Amazon and you've seen it from a networking perspective that's where you guys are coming at it from yep we evolved more from a customer requirement perspective started out primarily as AWS but as the customer needed more resources from Azure like HPC you know as your ad things like that even recently Google Google Analytics our journey has evolved into more of a multi cloud environment Steve weigh in on the architecture because this has been the big conversation I want you to lead this second yeah so I mean I think you guys agree the journey you know it seems like the journey started a couple years ago got real serious the need for multi cloud whether you're there today of course it's gonna be there in the future so that's really important I think the next thing is just architecture I'd love to hear what you you know had some comments about architecture matters it all starts I mean every Enterprise I talk to maybe talk about architecture and the importance of architecture maybe Bobby it's a fun architecture perspective we sorted a journey five years ago Wow okay and we're just now starting our fourth evolution of our network marketer and we call it networking security net SEC yeah versus Justice Network yeah and that fourth generation architectures be based primarily upon Palo Alto Networks an aviatrix I have Atrix doing the orchestration piece of it but that journey came because of the need for simplicity ok the need for a multi cloud orchestration without us having to go and do reprogramming efforts across every cloud as it comes along right I guess the other question I also had around architectures also Louis maybe just talk about I know we've talked a little bit about you know scripting right and some of your thoughts on that yeah absolutely so so for us we started we started creating the network constructs with cloud formation and we've we've stuck with that for the most part what's interesting about that is today on premise we have a lot of a lot of automation around around how we provision networks but cloud formation has become a little bit like the new manual for us so we we're now having issues with having the to automate that component and making it consistent with our on premise architecture making it consistent with Azure architecture and Google cloud so it's really interesting to see to see companies now bring that layer of abstraction that SEO and brought to the to the web side now it's going up into into the into the cloud networking architecture so on the fourth generation of you mentioned you're in the fourth gen architecture what do you guys what have you learned is there any lessons scar tissue what to avoid what worked what was some of the that's probably the biggest list and there is that when you think you finally figured it out you have it right Amazon will change something as you or change something you know transit gateways a game changer so in listening to the business requirements is probably the biggest thing we need to do up front but I think from a simplicity perspective we like I said we don't want to do things four times we want to do things one time we won't be able to write to an API which aviatrix has and have them do the orchestration for us so that we don't have to do it four times how important is architecture in the progression is it you guys get thrown in the deep end to solve these problems or you guys zooming out and looking at it it's that I mean how are you guys looking at the architecture I mean you can't get off the ground if you don't have the network there so all of those that we've gone through similar evolutions we're on our fourth or fifth evolution I think about what we started off with Amazon without a direct connect gate without a trans a gateway without a lot of the things that are available today kind of the 80/20 that Steve was talking about just because it wasn't there doesn't mean we didn't need it so we needed to figure out a way to do it we couldn't say oh you need to come back to the network team in a year and maybe Amazon will have a solution for it right you need to do it now and in evolve later and maybe optimize or change the way you're doing things in the future but don't sit around and wait you can't I'd love to have you guys each individually answer this question for the live stream because it comes up a lot a lot of cloud architects out in the community what should they be thinking about the folks that are coming into this proactively and/or realizing the business benefits are there what advice would you guys give them an architecture what should be they be thinking about and what are some guiding principles you could share so I would start with looking at an architecture model that that can that can spread and and give consistency they're different to different cloud vendors that you will absolutely have to support cloud vendors tend to want to pull you into using their native toolset and that's good if only it was realistic to talk about only one cloud but because it doesn't it's it's it's super important to talk about and have a conversation with the business and with your technology teams about a consistent model how do I do my day one work so that I'm not you know spending 80 percent of my time troubleshooting or managing my network because I'm doing that then I'm missing out on ways that I can make improvements or embrace new technologies so it's really important early on to figure out how do I make this as low maintenance as possible so that I can focus on the things that the team really should be focusing on Bobby your advice the architect I don't know what else I can do that simplicity operations is key right all right so the holistic view of j2 operation you mentioned let's can jump in day one is your your your getting stuff set up day two is your life after all right this is kind of what you're getting at David so what does that look like what are you envisioning as you look at that 20 mile stare at post multi-cloud world what are some of the things that you want in a day to operations yeah infrastructure is code is really important to us so how do we how do we design it so that we can fit start making network changes and fitting them into like a release pipeline and start looking at it like that rather than somebody logging into a router seoi and troubleshooting things on in an ad hoc nature so moving more towards the DevOps model yes anything on that day - yeah I would love to add something so in terms of day 2 operations you can you can either sort of ignore the day 2 operations for a little while where you get well you get your feet wet or you can start approaching it from the beginning the fact is that the the cloud native tools don't have a lot of maturity in that space and when you run into an issue you're gonna end up having a bad day going through millions and millions of logs just to try to understand what's going on so that's something that that the industry just now is beginning to realize it's it's such as such a big gap I think that's key because for us we're moving to more of an event-driven operations in the past monitoring got the job done it's impossible to modern monitor something there's nothing there when the event happens all right so the event-driven application and then detection is important yeah I think Gardiner was all about the cloud native wave coming into networking that's going to be here thing I want to get your guys perspectives I know you have different views of how you came on into the journey and how you're executing and I always say the beauties in the eye of the beholder and that kind of applies the network's laid out so Bobby you guys do a lot of high-performance encryption both on AWS and Azure that's kind of a unique thing for you how are you seeing that impact with multi cloud yeah and that's a new requirement for us to where we we have a requirement to encrypt and they never get the question should I encryption or not encrypt the answer is always yes you should encrypt when you can encrypt for our perspective we we need to migrate a bunch of data from our data centers we have some huge data centers and then getting that data to the cloud is the timely expense in some cases so we have been mandated that we have to encrypt everything leave from the data center so we're looking at using the aviatrix insane mode appliances to be able to encrypt you know 10 20 gigabits of data as it moves to the cloud itself David you're using terraform you got fire Ned you've got a lot of complexity in your network what do you guys look at the future for yours environment yeah so something exciting that or yeah now is fire net so for our security team they obviously have a lot of a lot of knowledge base around Palo Alto and with our commitments to our clients you know it's it's it's not very easy to shift your security model to a specific cloud vendor right so there's a lot of stuck to compliance of things like that where being able to take some of what you've you know you've worked on for years on Bram and put it in the cloud and have the same type of assurance that things are gonna work and be secured in the same way that they are on prem helps make that journey into the cloud a lot easier and Louis you guys got scripting and get a lot of things going on what's your what's your unique angle on this yeah no absolutely so full disclosure I'm not a not not an aviatrix customer yet it's okay we want to hear the truth that's good Ellis what are you thinking about what's on your mind no really when you when you talk about implementing the tool like this it's really just really important to talk about automation and focus on on value so when you talk about things like encryption and things like so you're encrypting tunnels and crypting the path and those things are it should it should should be second nature really when you when you look at building those back ends and managing them with your team it becomes really painful so tools like a Beatrix that that add a lot of automation it's out of out of sight out of mind you can focus on the value and you don't have to focus on so I gotta ask you guys I'll see aviatrix is here they're their supplier to this sector but you guys are customers everyone's pitching you stuff people are not going to buy my stuff how do you guys have that conversation with the suppliers like the cloud vendors and other folks what's that what's it like we're API all the way you got to support this what are some of the what are some of your requirements how do you talk to and evaluate people that walk in and want to knock on your door and pitch you something what's the conversation like it's definitely it's definitely API driven we we definitely look at the at the PAP i structure of the vendors provide before we select anything that that is always first in mind and also what a problem are we really trying to solve usually people try to sell or try to give us something that isn't really valuable like implementing a solution on the on the on the cloud isn't really it doesn't really add a lot of value that's where we go David what's your conversation like with suppliers you have a certain new way to do things as as becomes more agile and essentially the networking and more dynamic what are some of the conversation is with the either incumbents or new new vendors that you're having what do what do you require yeah so ease of use is definitely definitely high up there we've had some vendors come in and say you know hey you know when you go to set this up we're gonna want to send somebody on site and they're gonna sit with you for your day to configure it and that's kind of a red flag what wait a minute you know do we really if one of my really talented engineers can't figure it out on his own what's going on there and why is that so I you know having having some ease-of-use and the team being comfortable with it and understanding it is really important Bobby how about you I mean the old days was do a bake-off and you know the winner takes all I mean is it like that anymore but what's the Volvic a bake-off last year for us do you win so but that's different now because now when you when you get the product you can install the product and they double your energy or have it in a matter of minutes and so the key is is they can you be operational you know within hours or days instead of weeks but but do we also have the flexibility to customize it to meet your needs could you want to be you want to be put into a box with the other customers when you have needs that your pastor cut their needs yeah almost see the challenge that you guys are living where you've got the cloud immediate value depending how you can roll up any solutions but then you have might have other needs so you got to be careful not to buy into stuff that's not shipping so you're trying to be proactive at the same time deal with what you got I mean how do you guys see that evolving because multi-cloud to me is definitely relevant but it's not yet clear how to implement across how do you guys look at this baked versus you know future solutions coming how do you balance that so again so right now we we're we're taking the the ad hoc approach and experimenting with the different concepts of cloud and and really leveraging the the native constructs of each cloud but but there's a there's a breaking point for sure you don't you don't get to scale this like Alexa mom said and you have to focus on being able to deliver a developer they're their sandbox or they're their play area for the for the things that they're trying to build quickly and the only way to do that is with the with with some sort of consistent orchestration layer that allows you to so use a lot more stuff to be coming pretty quickly hides area I do expect things to start to start maturing quite quite quickly this year and you guys see similar trend new stuff coming fast yeah part of the biggest challenge we've got now is being able to segment within the network being able to provide segmentation between production on production workloads even businesses because we support many businesses worldwide and and isolation between those is a key criteria there so the ability to identify and quickly isolate those workloads is key so the CIOs that are watching or that are saying hey take that he'll do multi cloud and then you know the bottoms-up organization Nick pops you're kind of like off a little bit it's not how it works I mean what is the reality in terms of implementing you know in as fast as possible because the business benefits are but it's not always clear in the technology how to move that fast yeah what are some of the barriers one of the blockers what are the enablers I think the reality is is that you may not think you're multi-cloud but your business is right so I think the biggest barriers there is understanding what the requirements are and how best to meet those requirements and then secure manner because you need to make sure that things are working from a latency perspective that things work the way they did and get out of the mind shift that you know it was a cheery application in the data center it doesn't have to be a Tier three application in the cloud so lift and shift is is not the way to go yeah scale is a big part of what I see is the competitive advantage to a lot these clouds and needs to be proprietary network stacks in the old days and then open systems came that was a good thing but as clouds become bigger there's kind of an inherent lock in there with the scale how do you guys keep the choice open how're you guys thinking about interoperability what are some of the conversations and you guys are having around those key concepts well when we look at when we look at the upfront from a networking perspective it it's really key for you to just enable enable all the all the clouds to be to be able to communicate between them developers will will find a way to use the cloud that best suits their their business need and and like like you said it's whether whether you're in denial or not of the multi cloud fact that then your company is in already that's it becomes really important for you to move quickly yeah and I a lot of it also hinges on how well is the provider embracing what that specific cloud is doing so are they are they swimming with Amazon or Azure and just helping facilitate things they're doing the you know the heavy lifting API work for you or are they swimming upstream and they're trying to hack it all together in a messy way and so that helps you you know stay out of the lock-in because they're you know if they're doing if they're using Amazon native tools to help you get where you need to be it's not like Amazon's gonna release something in the future that completely you know makes you have designed yourself into a corner so the closer they're more than cloud native they are the more the easier it is to to deploy but you also need to be aligned in such a way that you can take advantage of those cloud native technologies will it make sense tgw is a game changer in terms of cost and performance right so to completely ignore that would be wrong but you know if you needed to have encryption you know teach Adobe's not encrypted so you need to have some type of a gateway to do the VPN encryption you know so the aviatrix tool give you the beauty of both worlds you can use tgw with a gateway Wow real quick in the last minute we have I want to just get a quick feedback from you guys I hear a lot of people say to me hey the I picked the best cloud for the workload you got and then figure out multi cloud behind the scenes so that seems to be do you guys agree with that I mean is it do I go Mull one cloud across the whole company or this workload works great on AWS that work was great on this from a cloud standpoint do you agree with that premise and then witness multi-cloud stitch them all together yeah from from an application perspective it it can be per workload but it can also be an economical decision certain enterprise contracts will will pull you in one direction that value but the the network problem is still the same doesn't go away yeah yeah yeah I mean you don't want to be trying to fit a square into a round Hall right so if it works better on that cloud provider then it's our job to make sure that that service is there and people can use it agree you just need to stay ahead of the game make sure that the network infrastructure is there secure is available and is multi cloud capable yeah I'm at the end of the day you guys just validating that it's the networking game now cloud storage compute check networking is where the action is awesome thanks for your insights guys appreciate you coming on the panel appreciate it thanks thank you [Applause] [Music] [Applause] okay welcome back on the live feed I'm John fritz T Blaney my co-host with aviatrix I'm with the cube for the special digital event our next customer panel got great another set of cloud network architects Justin Smith was aura Justin broadly with Ellie Mae and Amit Oh tree job with Koopa welcome to stage [Applause] all right thank you thank you okay he's got all the the cliff notes from the last session welcome back rinse and repeat yeah yeah we're going to go under the hood a little bit I think I think they nailed the what we've been reporting and we've been having this conversation around networking is where the action is because that's the end of the day you got a move a pack from A to B and you get workloads exchanging data so it's really killer so let's get started Amit what are you seeing as the journey of multi cloud as you go under the hood and say okay I got to implement this I have to engineer the network make it enabling make it programmable make it interoperable across clouds and that's like I mean almost sounds impossible to me what's your take yeah I mean it it seems impossible but if you are running an organization which is running infrastructure as a cordon all right it is easily doable like you can use tools out there that's available today you can use third-party products that can do a better job but but put your architecture first don't wait architecture may not be perfect put the best architecture that's available today and be agile to iterate and make improvements over the time we get to Justin's over here so I have to be careful when I point a question in Justin they both have the answer but okay journeys what's the journey been like I mean is there phases we heard that from Gartner people come in to multi cloud and cloud native networking from different perspectives what's your take on the journey Justin yeah I mean from our perspective we started out very much focused on one cloud and as we started doing errands we started doing new products the market the need for multi cloud comes very apparent very quickly for us and so you know having an architecture that we can plug in play into and be able to add and change things as it changes is super important for what we're doing in the space just in your journey yes for us we were very ad hoc oriented and the idea is that we were reinventing all the time trying to move into these new things and coming up with great new ideas and so rather than it being some iterative approach with our deployments that became a number of different deployments and so we shifted that tore in the network has been a real enabler of this is that it there's one network and it touches whatever cloud we want it to touch and it touches the data centers that we need it to touch and it touches the customers that we need it to touch our job is to make sure that the services that are available and one of those locations are available in all of the locations so the idea is not that we need to come up with this new solution every time it's that we're just iterating on what we've already decided to do before we get the architecture section I want to ask you guys a question I'm a big fan of you know let the app developers have infrastructure as code so check but having the right cloud run that workload I'm a big fan of that if it works great but we just heard from the other panel you can't change the network so I want to get your thoughts what is cloud native networking and is that the engine really that's the enabler for this multi cloud trend but you guys taken we'll start with Amit what do you think about that yeah so you are gonna have workloads running in different clouds and the workloads would have affinity to one cloud over other but how you expose that it matter of how you are going to build your networks how we are gonna run security how we are going to do egress ingress out of it so it's a big problem how do you split says what's the solution what's the end the key pain points and problem statement I mean the key pain point for most companies is how do you take your traditionally on-premise network and then blow that out to the cloud in a way that makes sense you know IP conflicts you have IP space you pub public eye peas and premise as well as in the cloud and how do you kind of make a sense of all of that and I think that's where tools like a v8 ryx make a lot of sense in that space from our site it's it's really simple its latency its bandwidth and availability these don't change whether we're talking about cloud or data center or even corporate IT networking so our job when when these all of these things are simplified into like s3 for instance and our developers want to use those we have to be able to deliver that and for a particular group or another group that wants to use just just GCP resources these aren't we have to support these requirements and these wants as opposed to saying hey that's not a good idea our job is to enable them not to disable them do you think you guys think infrastructure is code which I love that I think it's that's the future it is we saw that with DevOps but I do start getting the networking is it getting down to the network portion where it's network is code because storage and compute working really well is seeing all kubernetes and service master and network as code reality is it there is got work to do it's absolutely there I mean you mentioned net DevOps and it's it's very real I mean in Cooper we build our networks through terraform and on not only just out of fun build an API so that we can consistently build V nets and VPC all across in the same unit yeah and even security groups and then on top an aviatrix comes in we can peer the networks bridge bridge all the different regions through code same with you guys but yeah everything we deploy is done with automation and then we also run things like lambda on top to make changes in real time we don't make manual changes on our network in the data center funny enough it's still manual but the cloud has enabled us to move into this automation mindset and and all my guys that's what they focus on is bringing what now what they're doing in the cloud into the data center which is kind of opposite of what it should be that's full or what it used to be it's full DevOps then yes yeah I mean for us was similar on-premise still somewhat very manual although we're moving more Norton ninja and terraform concepts but everything in the production environment is colored Confirmation terraform code and now coming into the datacenter same I just wanted to jump in on a Justin Smith one of the comment that you made because it's something that we always talk about a lot is that the center of gravity of architecture used to be an on-prem and now it's shifted in the cloud and once you have your strategic architecture what you--what do you do you push that everywhere so what you used to see at the beginning of cloud was pushing the architecture on prem into cloud now I want to pick up on what you said to you others agree that the center of architect of gravity is here I'm now pushing what I do in the cloud back into on pram and and then so first that and then also in the journey where are you at from 0 to 100 of actually in the journey to cloud DUI you 50% there are you 10% yes I mean are you evacuating data centers next year I mean were you guys at yeah so there's there's two types of gravity that you typically are dealing with no migration first is data gravity and your data set and where that data lives and then the second is the network platform that interrupts all that together right in our case the data gravity sold mostly on Prem but our network is now extending out to the app tier that's going to be in cloud right eventually that data gravity will also move to cloud as we start getting more sophisticated but you know in our journey we're about halfway there about halfway through the process we're taking a handle of you know lift and shift and when did that start and we started about three years ago okay okay go by it's a very different story it started from a garage and one hundred percent on the clock it's a business spend management platform as a software-as-a-service one hundred percent on the cloud it was like ten years ago right yes yeah you guys are riding the wave love that architecture Justin I want to ask user you guys mentioned DevOps I mean obviously we saw the huge observability wave which is essentially network management for the cloud in my opinion right yeah it's more dynamic but this isn't about visibility we heard from the last panel you don't know what's being turned on or turned off from a services standpoint at any given time how is all this playing out when you start getting into the DevOps down well this this is the big challenge for all of us as visibility when you talk transport within a cloud you know we very interesting we we have moved from having a backbone that we bought that we own that would be data center connectivity we now I work for as or as a subscription billing company so we want to support the subscription mindset so rather than going and buying circuits and having to wait three months to install and then coming up with some way to get things connected and resiliency and redundancy I my backbone is in the cloud I use the cloud providers interconnections between regions to transport data across and and so if you do that with their native solutions you you do lose visibility there are areas in that that you don't get which is why controlling you know controllers and having some type of management plane is a requirement for us to do what we're supposed to do and provide consistency while doing it a great conversation I loved when you said earlier latency bandwidth I think availability with your sim pop3 things guys SLA I mean you just do ping times between clouds it's like you don't know what you're getting for round-trip times this becomes a huge kind of risk management black hole whatever you want to call blind spot how are you guys looking at the interconnects between clouds because you know I can see that working from you know ground to cloud I'm per cloud but when you start doing with multi clouds workload I mean SL leis will be all over the map won't they just inherently but how do you guys view that yeah I think we talked about workload and we know that the workloads are going to be different in different clouds but they are going to be calling each other so it's very important to have that visibility that you can see how data is flowing at what latency and what our ability is hour is there and our authority needs to operate on that so it's solely use the software dashboard look at the times and look at the latency in the old days strong so on open so on you try to figure it out and then your day is you have to figure out just and what's your answer to that because you're in the middle of it yeah I mean I think the the key thing there is that we have to plan for that failure we have to plan for that latency and our applications it's starting start tracking in your SLI something you start planning for and you loosely couple these services and a much more micro services approach so you actually can handle that kind of failure or that type of unknown latency and unfortunately the cloud has made us much better at handling exceptions a much better way you guys are all great examples of cloud native from day one and you guys had when did you have the tipping point moment or the Epiphany of saying a multi clouds real I can't ignore it I got to factor it into all my design design principles and and everything you're doing what's it was there a moment or was it was it from day one now there are two divisions one was the business so in business there was some affinity to not be in one cloud or to be in one cloud and that drove from the business side so it has a cloud architect our responsibility was to support that business and other is the technology some things are really running better in like if you are running dot network load or you are going to run machine learning or AI so that you have you would have that preference of one cloud over other so it was the bill that we got from AWS I mean that's that's what drives a lot of these conversations is the financial viability of what you're building on top of it which is so we this failure domain idea which is which is fairly interesting is how do I solve or guarantee against a failure domain you have methodologies with you know back-end direct connects or interconnect with GCP all of these ideas are something that you have to take into account but that transport layer should not matter to whoever we're building this for our job is to deliver the frames in the packets what that flows across how you get there we want to make that seamless and so whether it's a public internet API call or it's a back-end connectivity through Direct Connect it doesn't matter it just has to meet a contract that you signed with your application folks yeah that's the availability piece just on your thoughts on that I think any comment on that so actually multi clouds become something much more recent in the last six to eight months I'd say we always kind of had a very much an attitude of like moving to Amazon from our private cloud is hard enough why complicate it further but the realities of the business and as we start seeing you know improvements in Google and Asia and different technology spaces the need for multi cloud becomes much more important as well as those are acquisition strategies I matured we're seeing that companies that used to be on premise that we typically acquire are now very much already on a cloud and if they're on a cloud I need to plug them into our ecosystem and so that's really change our multi cloud story in a big way I'd love to get your thoughts on the clouds versus the clouds because you know you compare them Amazon's got more features they're rich with features I see the bills are haiku people using them but Google's got a great Network Google's networks pretty damn good and then you got a sure what's the difference between the clouds who where they've evolved something whether they peak in certain areas better than others what what are the characteristics which makes one cloud better do they have a unique feature that makes Azure better than Google and vice versa what do you guys think about the different clouds yeah to my experience I think there is the approach is different in many places Google has a different approach very devops friendly and you can run your workload like your network can spend regions time I mean but our application ready to accept that MS one is evolving I mean I remember ten years back Amazon's network was a flat network we will be launching servers and 10.0.0.0 mode multi-account came out so they are evolving as you are at a late start but because they have a late start they saw the pattern and they they have some mature set up on the I mean I think they're all trying to say they're equal in their own ways I think they all have very specific design philosophies that allow them to be successful in different ways and you have to kind of that in mine is your architectural and solution for example Amazon has a very much a very regional affinity they don't like to go cross region in their architecture whereas Google is very much it's a global network we're gonna think about as a global solution I think Google also has advantages there to market and so it has seen what asier did wrong it's seen what AWS did wrong and it's made those improvements and I think that's one of their big advantage at great scale to Justin thoughts on the cloud so yeah Amazon built from the system up and Google built from the network down so their ideas and approaches are from a global versus or regional I agree with you completely that that is the big number one thing but the if you look at it from the outset interestingly the the inability or the ability for Amazon to limit layer 2 broadcasting and and what that really means from a VPC perspective changed all the routing protocols you can use all the things that we have built inside of a data center to provide resiliency and and and make things seamless to users all of that disappeared and so because we had to accept that at the VPC level now we have to accept it at the LAN level Google's done a better job of being able to overcome those things and provide those traditional Network facilities to us it's just great panel can go all day here's awesome so I heard we could we'll get to the cloud native naive question so kind of think about what's not even what's cloud is that next but I got to ask you had a conversation with a friend he's like when is the new land so if you think about what the land was at a data center when is the new link you get talking about the cloud impact so that means st when the old st was kind of changing into the new land how do you guys look at that because if you think about it what lands were for inside a premises was all about networking high speed but now when you take the win and make essentially a land do you agree with that and how do you view this trend and is it good or bad or is it ugly and what's what you guys take on this yeah I think it's the it's a thing that you have to work with your application architect so if you are managing networks and if you're a sorry engineer you need to work with them to expose the unreliability that would bring in so the application has to hand a lot of this the difference in the Layton sees and and the reliability has to be worked through the application there land when same concept as it be yesterday I think we've been talking about for a long time the erosion of the edge and so is this is just a continuation of that journey we've been on for the last several years as we get more and more cloud native when we start about API is the ability to lock my data in place and not be able to access it really goes away and so I think this is just continuation that thing I think it has challenges we start talking about weighing scale versus land scale the tooling doesn't work the same the scale of that tooling is much larger and the need to automation is much much higher in a way than it was in a land that's what we're seeing so much infrastructure as code yeah yeah so for me I'll go back again to this its bandwidth and its latency right that bet define those two land versus win but the other thing that's comes up more and more with cloud deployments is where is our security boundary and where can I extend this secure aware appliance or set of rules to protect what's inside of it so for us we're able to deliver VRS or route forwarding tables for different segments wherever we're at in the world and so they're they're trusted to talk to each other but if they're gonna go to someplace that's outside of their their network then they have to cross a security boundary and where we enforce policy very heavily so for me there's it's not just land when it's it's how does environment get to environment more importantly that's a great point and security we haven't talked to yet but that's got to be baked in from the beginning that's architecture thoughts on security are you guys are dealing with it yeah start from the base have app to have security built in have TLS have encryption on the data I transit data at rest but as you bring the application to the cloud and they are going to go multi-cloud talking to over the Internet in some places well have apt web security I mean I mean our principals day Security's day zero every day and so we we always build it into our design we load entire architecture into our applications it's encrypt everything it's TLS everywhere it's make sure that that data is secured at all times yeah one of the cool trends at RSA just as a side note was the data in use encryption piece which is a homomorphic stuff was interesting all right guys final question you know we heard on the earlier panel was also trending at reinvent we take the tea out of cloud native it spells cloud naive okay they got shirts now he being sure he's gonna got this trend going what does that mean to be naive so if you're to your peers out there watching a live stream and also the suppliers that are trying to you know supply you guys with technology and services what's naive look like and what's native look like when is someone naive about implementing all this stuff so for me it's because we are in hundred-percent cloud for us its main thing is ready for the change and you will you will find new building blocks coming in and the network design will evolve and change so don't be naive and think that it's static you wall with the change I think the big naivety that people have is that well I've been doing it this way for twenty years and been successful it's going to be successful in cloud the reality is that's not the case you have to think some of the stuff a little bit differently and you need to think about it early enough so that you can become cloud native and really enable your business on cloud yeah for me it's it's being open minded right the the our industry the network industry as a whole has been very much I am smarter than everybody else and we're gonna tell everybody how it's going to be done and we have we fell into a lull when it came to producing infrastructure and and and so embracing this idea that we can deploy a new solution or a new environment in minutes as opposed to hours or weeks or four months in some cases is really important and and so you know it's are you being closed-minded native being open-minded exactly and and it took a for me it was that was a transformative kind of where I was looking to solve problems in a cloud way as opposed to looking to solve problems in this traditional old-school way all right I know we're out of time but I ask one more question so you guys so good it could be a quick answer what's the BS language when you the BS meter goes off when people talk to you about solutions what's the kind of jargon that you hear that's the BS meter going off what are people talking about that in your opinion you here you go that's total B yes what what triggers use it so that I have two lines out of movies that are really I can if the if I say them without actually thinking them it's like 1.21 jigowatts how you're out of your mind from Back to the Future right somebody's gonna be a bank and then and then Martin ball and and Michael Keaton and mr. mom when he goes to 22 21 whatever it takes yeah those two right there if those go off in my mind somebody's talking to me I know they're full of baloney so a lot of speeds would be a lot of speeds and feeds a lot of data did it instead of talking about what you're actually doing and solutioning for you're talking about well I does this this this and okay 220 221 anytime I start seeing the cloud vendor start benchmarking against each other it's your workload is your workload you need to benchmark yourself don't don't listen to the marketing on that that's that's all I'm a what triggers you and the bsp I think if somebody explains you a not simple they cannot explain you in simplicity then that's a good one all right guys thanks for the great insight great panel how about a round of applause practitioners DX easy solutions integrating company than we service customers from all industry verticals and we're helping them to move to the digital world so as a solutions integrator we interface with many many customers that have many different types of needs and they're on their IT journey to modernize their applications into the cloud so we encounter many different scenarios many different reasons for those migrations all of them seeking to optimize their IT solutions to better enable their business we have our CPS organization it's cloud platform services we support AWS does your Google Alibaba corkle will help move those workloads to wherever it's most appropriate no one buys the house for the plumbing equally no one buys the solution for the networking but if the plumbing doesn't work no one likes the house and if this network doesn't work no one likes a solution so network is ubiquitous it is a key component of every solution we do the network connectivity is the lifeblood of any architecture without network connectivity nothing works properly planning and building a scalable robust network that's gonna be able to adapt with the application needs its when encountering some network design and talking about speed the deployment aviatrix came up in discussion and we then further pursued an area DHT products that incorporated aviatrix is part of a new offering that we are in the process of developing that really enhances our ability to provide cloud connectivity for the lance cloud connectivity there's a new line of networking services that we're getting into as our clients move into hybrid cloud networking it is much different than our traditional based services an aviatrix provides a key component in that service before we found aviatrix we were using just native peering connections but there wasn't a way to visualize all those peering connections and with multiple accounts multiple contacts for security with a v8 church we were able to visualize those different peering connections of security groups it helped a lot especially in areas of early deployment scenarios were quickly able to then take those deployment scenarios and turn them into scripts that we can then deploy repeatedly their solutions were designed for work with the cloud native capabilities first and where those cloud native capabilities fall short they then have solution sets that augment those capabilities I was pleasantly surprised number one with the aviatrix team as a whole in their level of engagement with us you know we weren't only buying the product we were buying a team that came on board to help us implement and solution that was really good to work together to learn both what aviatrix had to offer as well as enhancements that we had to bring that aviatrix was able to put into their product and meet our needs even better aviatrix was a joy to find because they really provided us the technology that we needed in order to provide multi cloud connectivity that really added to the functionality that you can't get from the basic law providing services we're taking our customers on a journey to simplify and optimize their IT infrastructure aviatrix certainly has made my job much easier okay welcome back to altitude 2020 for the digital event for the live feed welcome back I'm John Ford with the cube with Steve Mulaney CEO aviatrix for the next panel from global system integrators the folks who are building and working with folks on their journey to multi cloud and cloud native networking we've got a great panel George Buckman with dxc and Derek Monahan with wwt welcome to the stage [Applause] [Music] okay you guys are the ones out there advising building and getting down and dirty with multi cloud and cloud native networking we heard from the customer panel you can see the diversity of where people come into the journey of cloud it kind of depends upon where you are but the trends are all clear cloud native networking DevOps up and down the stack this has been the main engine what's your guys take of the disk journey to multi cloud what do you guys seeing yeah it's it's critical I mean we're seeing all of our enterprise customers enter into this they've been through the migrations of the easy stuff you know now they're trying to optimize and get more improvement so now the tough stuffs coming on right and you know they need their data processing near where their data is so that's driving them to a multi cloud environment okay we heard some of the edge stuff I mean you guys are exactly you've seen this movie before but now it's a whole new ballgame what's your take yeah so I'll give you a hint so our practice it's not called the cloud practice it's the multi cloud practice and so if that gives you a hint of how we approach things it's very consultative and so when we look at what the trends are let's look a little year ago about a year ago we were having conversations with customers let's build a data center in the cloud let's put some VP C's let's throw some firewalls with some DNS and other infrastructure out there and let's hope it works this isn't a science project so what we're trying we're starting to see is customers are starting to have more of a vision and we're helping with that consultative nature but it's totally based on the business and you got to start understanding how the lines of business are using the apps and then we evolved into that next journey which is a foundational approach to what are some of the problem statement customers are solving when they come to you what are the top things that are on their my house or the ease of use of jelly all that stuff but what specifically they did digging into yeah some complexity I think when you look at multi cloud approach in my view is network requirements are complex you know I think they are but I think the approach can be let's simplify that so one thing that we try to do and this is how we talk to customers is let's just like you simplify an aviatrix simplifies the automation orchestration of cloud networking we're trying to simplify the design the planning implementation of infrastructure across multiple workloads across multiple platforms and so the way we do it is we sit down we look at not just use cases and not just the questions in common we anticipate we actually build out based on the business and function requirements we build out a strategy and then create a set of documents and guess what we actually build in the lab and that lab that we platform we built proves out this reference architecture actually works absolutely we implement similar concepts I mean we they're proven practices they work great so well George you mentioned that the hard part is now upon us are you referring to networking what is specifically were you getting at Tara so the easy parts done now so for the enterprises themselves migrating their more critical apps or more difficult apps into the environments you know they've just we've just scratched the surface I believe on what enterprises that are doing to move into the cloud to optimize their environments to take advantage of the scale and speed to deployment and to be able to better enable their businesses so they're just now really starting the >> so do you get you guys see what I talked about them in terms of their Cambrian explosion I mean you're both monster system integrators with you know top fortune enterprise customers you know really rely on you for for guidance and consulting and so forth and boy they're networks is that something that you you've seen I mean does that resonate did you notice a year and a half ago and all of a sudden the importance of cloud for enterprise shoot up yeah I mean we're seeing it okay in our internal environment as yeah you know we're a huge company or right customer zero or an IT so we're experiencing that internal okay and every one of our other customers so I have another question oh I don't know the answer to this and the lawyer never asks a question that you don't know the answer to but I'm gonna ask it anyway d XE @ wwt massive system integrators why aviatrix yep so great question Steve so I think the way we approach things I think we have a similar vision a similar strategy how you approach things how we approach things that it worldwide technology number one we want to simplify the complexity and so that's your number one priorities let's take the networking but simplify it and I think part of the other point I'm making is we have we see this automation piece as not just an afterthought anymore if you look at what customers care about visibility and automation is probably the at the top three maybe the third on the list and I think that's where we see the value and I think the partnership that we're building and what I what I get excited about is not just putting yours in our lab and showing customers how it works it's Co developing a solution with you figuring out hey how can we make this better right mr. piller is a huge thing Jenna insecurity alone Network everything's around visibility what automation do you see happening in terms of progression order of operations if you will it's the low-hanging fruit what are people working on now and what are what are some of the aspirational goals around when you start thinking about multi cloud and automation yep so I wanted to get back to answer that question I want to answer your question you know what led us there and why aviatrix you know in working some large internal IT projects and and looking at how we were going to integrate those solutions you know we like to build everything with recipes where Network is probably playing catch-up in the DevOps world but with a DevOps mindset looking to speed to deploy support all those things so when you start building your recipes you take a little of this a little of that and you mix it all together well when you look around you say wow look there's this big bag of a VHS let me plop that in that solves a big part of my problems that I have to speed to integrate speed to deploy and the operational views that I need to run this so that was 11 years about reference architectures yeah absolutely so you know they came with a full slate of reference architectures already the out there and ready to go that fit our needs so it's very very easy for us to integrate those into our recipes what do you guys think about all the multi vendor interoperability conversations that have been going on choice has been a big part of multi cloud in terms of you know customers want choice didn't you know they'll put a workload in the cloud that works but this notion of choice and interoperability is become a big conversation it is and I think our approach and that's why we talk to customers is let's let's speed and be risk of that decision making process and how do we do that because the interoperability is key you're not just putting it's not just a single vendor we're talking you know many many vendors I mean think about the average number of cloud applications a customer uses a business and enterprise business today you know it's it's above 30 it's it's skyrocketing and so what we do and we look at it from an Billy approaches how do things interoperate we test it out we validate it we build a reference architecture it says these are the critical design elements now let's build one with aviatrix and show how this works with aviatrix and I think the the important part there though is the automation piece that we add to it invisibility so I think the visibility is what's what I see lacking across the industry today and the cloud needed that's been a big topic yep okay in terms of aviatrix that you guys see them coming in there one of the ones that are emerging and the new brands emerging with multi cloud you still got the old guard incumbents with huge footprints how our customers dealing with that that kind of component in dealing with both of them yeah I mean where we have customers that are ingrained with a particular vendor and you know we have partnerships with many vendors so our objective is to provide the solution that meets that client and you they all want multi vendor they all want interoperability correct all right so I got to ask you guys a question while we were defining de to operations what does that mean I mean you guys are looking at the big business and technical components of architecture what does de two operations mean what's the definition of that yeah so I think from our perspective my experience we you know de to operations whether it's it's not just the you know the orchestration piece and setting up and let it a lot of automate and have some you know change control you're looking at this from a data perspective how do I support this ongoing and make it easy to make changes as we evolve that the the cloud is very dynamic the the nature of how that fast is expanding the number of features is astonishing trying to keep up to date with a number of just networking capabilities and services that are added so I think day to operation starts with a fundable understanding of you know building out supporting a customer's environments and making it the automation piece easy from from you know a distance I think yeah and you know taking that to the next level of being able to enable customers to have catalog items that they can pick and choose hey I need this network connectivity from this cloud location back to this on pram and being able to have that automated and provisioned just simply by ordering it for the folks watching out there guys take a minute to explain as you guys are in the trenches doing a lot of good work what are some of the engagement that you guys get into how does that progress what is that what's what happens there they call you up and say hey I need multi-cloud or you're already in there I mean take us through why how someone can engage to use a global si to come in and make this thing happen what's looks like typical engagement look like yeah so from our perspective we typically have a series of workshops in a methodology that we kind of go along the journey number one we have a foundational approach and I don't mean foundation meaning the network foundation that's a very critical element we got a factor in security we got a factor in automation so we think about foundation we do a workshop that starts with education a lot of times we'll go in and we'll just educate the customer what does VPC sharing you know what is a private link and Azure how does that impact your business you know customers I want to share services out in an ecosystem with other customers and partners well there's many ways to accomplish that so our goal is to you know understand those requirements and then build that strategy with them thoughts George oh yeah I mean I'm one of the guys that's down in the weeds making things happen so I'm not the guy on the front line interfacing with the customers every day but we have a similar approach you know we have a consulting practice that will go out and and apply their practices to see what those and when do you parachute in yeah when I then is I'm on the back end working with our offering development leads for the networking so we understand or seeing what customers are asking for and we're on the back end developing the solutions that integrate with our own offerings as well as enable other customers to just deploy quickly to meet their connectivity needs it so the patterns are similar great final question for you guys I want to ask you to paint a picture of what success looks like and you know for name customers you don't forget in reveal of kind of who they are but what does success look like in multi-cloud as you as you paint a picture for the folks here and watching on the live stream it's if someone says hey I want to be multi-cloud I got to have my operations agile I want full DevOps I want programmability security built in from day zero what does success look like yeah I think success looks like this so when you're building out a network the network is a harder thing to change than some other aspects of cloud so what we think is even if you're thinking about that second cloud which we have most of our customers are on to public clouds today they might be dabbling in that is you build that network foundation an architecture that takes in consideration where you're going and so once we start building that reference architecture out that shows this is how to sit from a multi-cloud perspective not a single cloud and let's not forget our branches let's not forget our data centers let's not forget how all this connects together because that's how we define multi-cloud it's not just in the cloud it's on Prem and it's off Prem and so collectively I think the key is also is that we provide them an hld you got to start with in a high-level design that can be tweaked as you go through the journey but you got to give a solid structural foundation and that networking which we think most customers think as not not the network engineers but as an afterthought we want to make that the most critical element before you start the journey Jorge from your seed had a success look for you so you know it starts out on these journeys often start out people not even thinking about what is gonna happen what what their network needs are when they start their migration journey to the cloud so I want this success to me looks like them being able to end up not worrying about what's happening in the network when they move to the cloud good guys great insight thanks for coming on share and pen I've got a round of applause the global system integrators [Applause] [Music] okay welcome back from the live feed I'm shuffle with the cube Steve Eleni CEO of aviatrix my co-host our next panel is the aviatrix certified engineers also known as aces this is the folks that are certified their engineering they're building these new solutions please welcome Toby Foster min from Attica Stacy linear from Terra data and Jennifer Reid with Victor Davis to the stage I was just gonna I was just gonna rip you guys and say where's your jackets and Jen's got the jacket on okay good love the aviatrix aces pile of gear there above the clouds soaring to new heights that's right so guys aviatrix aces love the name I think it's great certified this is all about getting things engineered so there's a level of certification I want to get into that but first take us through the day in the life of an ace and just to point out Stacey's a squad leader so he's like a squadron leader Roger and leader yeah squadron leader so he's got a bunch of aces underneath him but share your perspective day-in-the-life Jeff we'll start with you sure so I have actually a whole team that works for me both in the in the North America both in the US and in Mexico and so I'm eagerly working to get them certified as well so I can become a squad leader myself but it's important because one of the the critical gaps that we've found is people having the networking background because they're you graduate from college and you have a lot of computer science background you can program you've got Python but networking in packets they just don't get and so just taking them through all the processes that it's really necessary to understand when you're troubleshooting is really critical mm-hmm and because you're gonna get an issue where you need to figure out where exactly is that happening on the network you know is my my issue just in the V PCs and on the instant side is a security group or is it going on print and this is something actually embedded within Amazon itself I mean I should troubleshot an issue for about six months going back and forth with Amazon and it was the vgw VPN because they were auto-scaling on two sides and we ended up having to pull out the Cisco's and put in aviatrix so I could just say okay it's fixed and actually actually helped the application teams get to that and get it solved yeah but I'm taking a lot of junior people and getting them through that certification process so they can understand and see the network the way I see the network I mean look I've been doing this such for 25 years but I got out when I went in the Marine Corps that's what I did and coming out the network is still the network but people don't get the same training they get they got in the 90s it's just so easy just write some software and they work takes care of itself yes I'll be will get I'll come back to that I want to come back to that that problem solved with Amazon but Toby I think the only thing I have to add to that is that it's always the network fault as long as I've been in network have always been the network's fault and I'm even to this day you know it's still the network's fault and part of being a network guy is that you need to prove when it is and when it's not your fault and that means you need to know a little bit about a hundred different things to make that and now you got a full stack DevOps you gotta know a lot more times another hundred and these times are changing yeah they say you're a squadron leader I get that right what is what does a squadron leader first can you describe what it is I think probably just leading all the network components of it but not they from my perspective when to think about what you asked them was it's about no issues and no escalation soft my day is a good that's a good day yes it's a good day Jennifer you mentioned the Amazon thing this brings up a good point you know when you have these new waves come in you have a lot of new things newly use cases a lot of the finger-pointing it's that guy's problem that girl's problem so what is how do you solve that and how do you get the young guns up to speed is there training is that this is where the certification comes in well is where the certification is really going to come in I know when we we got together at reinvent one of the the questions that that we had with Stephen the team was what what should our certification look like you know she would just be teaching about what aviatrix troubleshooting brings to bear but what should that be like and I think Toby and I were like no no no that's going a little too high we need to get really low because the the better someone can get at actually understanding what actually happening in the network and and where to actually troubleshoot the problem how to step back each of those processes because without that it's just a big black box and they don't know you know because everything is abstracted in Amazon Internet and Azure and Google is substracted and they have these virtual gateways they have VPNs that you just don't have the logs on it's you just don't know and so then what tools can you put in front of them of where they can look because there are full logs well as long as we turned on the flow logs when they built it you know and there's like each one of those little things that well if they had decided to do that when they built it it's there but if you can come in later to really supplement that with training to actual troubleshoot and do a packet capture here as it's going through then teaching them how to read that even yeah Toby we were talking before we came on up on stage about your career you've been networking all your time and then you know you're now entering a lot of younger people how is that going because the people who come in fresh they don't have all the old war stories they don't know you talk about you know that's dimmer fault I walk in bare feet in the snow when I was your age I mean it's so easy now right they say what's your take on how you train the young P so I've noticed two things one is that they are up to speed a lot faster in generalities of networking they can tell you what a network is in high school level now where I didn't learn that too midway through my career and they're learning it faster but they don't necessarily understand why it's that way or you know everybody thinks that it's always slash 24 for a subnet and they don't understand why you can break it down smaller why it's really necessary so the the ramp up speed is much faster for these guys that are coming in but they don't understand why and they need some of that background knowledge to see where it's coming from and why is it important and old guys that's where we thrive Jennifer you mentioned you you got in from the Marines health spa when you got into networking how what was it like then and compared it now almost like we heard earlier static versus dynamic don't be static cuz then you just set the network you got a perimeter yeah no there was no such thing ya know so back in the day I mean I mean we had banyan vines for email and you know we had token ring and I had to set up token ring networks and figure out why that didn't work because how many of things were actually sharing it but then actually just cutting fiber and running fiber cables and dropping them over you know shelters to plug them in and oh crap they swung it too hard and shattered it now I gotta be great polished this thing and actually shoot like to see if it works I mean that was the network crimped five cat5 cables to run an Ethernet you know and then from that just said network switches dumb switches like those were the most common ones you had then actually configuring routers and you know logging into a Cisco router and actually knowing how to configure that and it was funny because I had gone all the way up and was a software product manager for a while so I've gone all the way up the stack and then two and a half three years ago I came across to to work with entity group that it became Victor Davis but we went to help one of our customers Davis and it was like okay so we need to fix the network okay I haven't done this in 20 years but all right let's get to it you know because it really fundamentally does not change it's still the network I mean I've had people tell me well you know when we go to containers we will not have to worry about the network and I'm like yeah you don't I do and then with this were the program abilities it really interesting so I think this brings up the certification what are some of the new things that people should be aware of that come in with the aviatrix ace certification what are some of the highlights can you guys share some of the some of the highlights around the certifications I think some of the importance is that it's it doesn't need to be vendor specific for network generality or basic networking knowledge and instead of learning how Cisco does something or how Palo Alto does something we need to understand how and why it works as a basic model and then understand how each vendor has gone about that problem and solved it in a general that's true in multi cloud as well you can't learn how cloud networking works without understanding how a double u.s. senator and GCP are all slightly the same but slightly different and some things work and some things don't I think that's probably the number one take I think having a certification across clouds is really valuable cuz we heard the global si help the business issues what does it mean to do that is it code is that networking is it configuration is that aviatrix what is the I mean op C aviatrix is the ASA certification but what is it about the multi cloud that makes it multi networking and multi vendor easy answer is yes so you got to be a generalist getting your hands and all you have to be right it takes experience because it's every every cloud vendor has their own certification whether that's hops and advanced networking and advanced security or whatever it might be yeah they can take the test but they have no idea how to figure out what's wrong with that system and the same thing with any certification but it's really getting your hands in there and actually having to troubleshoot the problems you know actually work the problem you know and calm down it's going to be okay I mean because I don't know how many calls I've been on or even had aviatrix join me on it's like okay so everyone calm down let's figure out what's happening it's like we've looked at that screen three times looking at it again it's not gonna solve that problem right but at the same time you know remaining calm but knowing that it really is I'm getting a packet from here to go over here it's not working so what could be the problem you know and actually stepping them through with those scenarios but that's like you only get that by having to do it you know and seeing it and going through it and then I have a question so we you know I just see it we started this program maybe months ago we're seeing a huge amount of interest I mean we're oversubscribed on all the training sessions we've got people flying from around the country even with coronavirus flying to go to Seattle to go to these events were oversubscribed good is that watching leader would put there yeah is that something that you see in your organization's are you recommending that to people do you see I mean I'm just I guess I'm surprised I'm not surprised but I'm really surprised by the demand if you would of this multi cloud network certification because it really isn't anything like that is that something you guys can comment on or do you see the same things in your organization's I say from my side because we operate in the multi cloud environment so it really helps and it's beneficial for us yeah I think I would add that uh networking guys have always needed to use certifications to prove that they know what they know right it's not good enough to say yeah I know IP addresses or I know how a network works and a couple little check marks or a little letters buying helps give you validity um so even in our team we can say hey you know we're using these certifications to know that you know enough of the basics and enough of the understandings that you have the tools necessary right so I guess my final question for you guys is why an eighth certification is relevant and then second part is share what the livestream folks who aren't yet a certified or might want to jump in to be AVH or certified engineers why is it important so why is it relevant and why shouldn't someone want to be an ace-certified I'm uses the right engineer I think my views a little different I think certification comes from proving that you have the knowledge not proving that you get a certification to get no I mean they're backwards so when you've got the training and the understanding and the you use that to prove and you can like grow your certification list with it versus studying for a test to get a certification and have no understanding of ok so that who is the right person that look at this is saying I'm qualified is it a network engineer is it a DevOps person what's your view you know is it a certain you know I think cloud is really the answer it's the as we talked like the edge is getting eroded so is the network definitions eating eroded we're getting more and more of some network some DevOps some security lots and lots of security because network is so involved in so many of them that's just the next progression there I would say I expand that to more automation engineers because we have those now probably extended as well well I think that the training classes themselves are helpful especially the entry-level ones for people who may be quote-unquote cloud architects but I've never done anything and networking for them to understand why we need those things to really work whether or not they go through to eventually get a certification is something different but I really think fundamentally understanding how these things work it makes them a better architect makes them better application developer but even more so as you deploy more of your applications into the cloud really getting an understanding even from our people who have tradition down on Prem networking they can understand how that's going to work in the cloud - well I know we've got just under 30 seconds left I want to get one more question than just one more for the folks watching that are maybe younger that don't have that networking training from your experiences each of you can answer why is it should they know about networking what's the benefit what's in it for them motivate them share some insights and why they should go a little bit deeper in networking Stacey we'll start with you we'll go down I'd say it's probably fundamental right if you don't deliver solutions networking use the very top I would say if you fundamental of an operating system running on a machine how those machines talk together as a fundamental change is something that starts from the base and work your way up right well I think it's a challenge because you you've come from top down now you're gonna start looking from bottom up and you want those different systems to cross communicate and say you built something and you're overlapping IP space not that that doesn't happen but how can I actually make that still operate without having to reappear e-platform it's like those challenges like those younger developers or sis engineers can really start to get their hands around and understand those complexities and bring that forward in their career they got to know the how the pipes are working and because know what's going some plumbing that's right and the works a how to code it that's right awesome thank you guys for great insights ace certified engineers also known as aces give a round of applause thank you okay all right that concludes my portion thank you Steve thanks for have Don thank you very much that was fantastic everybody round of applause for John Currier yeah so great event great event I'm not going to take long we've got we've got lunch outside for that for the people here just a couple of things just call to action right so we saw the Aces you know for those of you out on the stream here become a certified right it's great for your career it's great for knowledge is is fantastic it's not just an aviatrix thing it's gonna teach you about cloud networking multi-cloud networking with a little bit of aviatrix exactly what the Cisco CCIE program was for IP network that type of the thing that's number one second thing is is is is learn right so so there's a there's a link up there for the four to join the community again like I started this this is a community this is the kickoff to this community and it's a movement so go to what a v8 community bh6 comm starting a community at multi cloud so you know get get trained learn I'd say the next thing is we're doing over a hundred seminars in across the United States and also starting into Europe soon will come out and will actually spend a couple hours and talk about architecture and talk about those beginning things for those of you on the you know on the livestream in here as well you know we're coming to a city near you go to one of those events it's a great way to network with other people that are in the industry as well as to start to learn and get on that multi-cloud journey and then I'd say the last thing is you know we haven't talked a lot about what aviatrix does here and that's intentional we want you you know leaving with wanting to know more and schedule get with us in schedule a multi our architecture workshop session so we we sit out with customers and we talk about where they're at in that journey and more importantly where they're going in that in-state architecture from networking compute storage everything and everything you heard today every panel kept talking about architecture talking about operations those are the types of things that we saw we help you cook define that canonical architecture that system architecture that's yours so for so many of our customers they have three by five plotted lucid charts architecture drawings and it's the customer name slash aviatrix arc network architecture and they put it on their whiteboard that's what what we and that's the most valuable thing they get from us so this becomes their twenty-year network architecture drawing that they don't do anything without talking to us and look at that architecture that's what we do in these multi hour workshop sessions with customers and that's super super powerful so if you're interested definitely call us and let's schedule that with our team so anyway I just want to thank everybody on the livestream thank everybody here hopefully it was it was very useful I think it was and joined the movement and for those of you here join us for lunch and thank you very much [Applause] [Music]

ladies and gentlemen this is your captain speaking we will soon be taking off on our way to altitude please keep your seatbelts fastened and remain in your seats we will be experiencing turbulence until we are above the clouds ladies and gentlemen we are now cruising at altitude sit back and enjoy the ride [Music] altitude is a community of thought leaders and pioneers cloud architects and enlightened network engineers who have individually and are now collectively leading their own IT teams and the industry on a path to lift cloud networking above the clouds empowering Enterprise IT to architect design and control their own cloud network regardless of the turbulent clouds beneath them it's time to gain altitude ladies and gentlemen Steve Mulaney president and CEO of aviatrix the leader of multi cloud networking [Music] [Applause] all right good morning everybody here in Santa Clara as well as to the what millions of people watching the livestream worldwide welcome to altitude 2020 all right so we've got a fantastic event today really excited about the speakers that we have today and the experts that we have and really excited to get started so one of the things I wanted to just share was this is not a one-time event it's not a one-time thing that we're gonna do sorry for the aviation analogy but you know sherry way aviatrix means female pilot so everything we do as an aviation theme this is a take-off for a movement this isn't an event this is a take-off of a movement a multi-cloud networking movement and community that we're inviting all of you to become part of and-and-and why we're doing that is we want to enable enterprises to rise above the clouds so to speak and build their network architecture regardless of which public cloud they're using whether it's one or more of these public clouds so the good news for today there's lots of good news but this is one good news is we don't have any powerpoint presentations no marketing speak we know that marketing people have their own language we're not using any of that in those sales pitches right so instead what are we doing we're going to have expert panels we've got Simone Rashard Gartner here we've got 10 different network architects cloud architects real practitioners they're going to share their best practices and there are real-world experiences on their journey to the multi cloud so before we start and everybody know what today is in the u.s. it's Super Tuesday I'm not gonna get political but Super Tuesday there was a bigger Super Tuesday that happened 18 months ago and maybe eight six employees know what I'm talking about 18 months ago on a Tuesday every enterprise said I'm gonna go to the cloud and so what that was was the Cambrian explosion for cloud for the price so Frank kibrit you know what a Cambrian explosion is he had to look it up on Google 500 million years ago what happened there was an explosion of life where it went from very simple single-cell organisms to very complex multi-celled organisms guess what happened 18 months ago on a Tuesday I don't really know why but every enterprise like I said all woke up that day and said now I'm really gonna go to cloud and that Cambrian explosion of cloud went meant that I'm moving from very simple single cloud single use case simple environment to a very complex multi cloud complex use case environment and what we're here today is we're gonna go and dress that and how do you handle those those those complexities and when you look at what's happening with customers right now this is a business transformation right people like to talk about transitions this is a transformation and it's actually not just the technology transformation it's a business transformation it started from the CEO and the boards of enterprise customers where they said I have an existential threat to the survival of my company if you look at every industry who they're worried about is not the other 30 year old enterprise what they're worried about is the three year old enterprise that's leveraging cloud that's leveraging AI and that's where they fear that they're going to actually get wiped out right and so because of this existential threat this is CEO lead this is board led this is not technology led it is mandated in the organization's we are going to digitally transform our enterprise because of this existential threat and the movement to cloud is going to enable us to go do that and so IT is now put back in charge if you think back just a few years ago in cloud it was led by DevOps it was led by the applications and it was like I said before their Cambrian explosion is very simple now with this Cambrian explosion and enterprises getting very serious and mission critical they care about visibility they care about control they care about compliance conformance everything governance IT is in charge and and and that's why we're here today to discuss that so what we're going to do today is much of things but we're gonna validate this journey with customers do they see the same thing we're gonna validate the requirements for multi-cloud because honestly I've never met an enterprise that is not going to be multi-cloud many are one cloud today but they all say I need to architect my network for multiple clouds because that's just what the network is there to support the applications and the applications will run and whatever cloud it runs best in and you have to be prepared for that the second thing is is is architecture again with the IT in charge you architecture matters whether it's your career whether it's how you build your house it doesn't matter horrible architecture your life is horrible forever good architecture your life is pretty good so we're gonna talk about architecture and how the most fundamental and critical part of that architecture and that basic infrastructure is the network if you don't get that right nothing works right way more important and compute way more important than storm dense storage network is the foundational element of your infrastructure then we're going to talk about day 2 operations what does that mean well day 1 is one day of your life that's who you wire things up they do and beyond I tell everyone in networking and IT it's every day of your life and if you don't get that right your life is bad forever and so things like operations visibility security things like that how do I get my operations team to be able to handle this in an automated way because it's not just about configuring it in the cloud it's actually about how do I operationalize it and that's a huge benefit that we bring as aviatrix and then the last thing we're going to talk and it's the last panel we have I always say you can't forget about the humans right so all this technology all these things that we're doing it's always enabled by the humans at the end of the day if the humans fight it it won't get deployed and we have a massive skills gap in cloud and we also have a massive skill shortage you have everyone in the world trying to hire cloud network architects right there's just not enough of them going around so at aviatrix as leaders knew we're gonna help address that issue and try to create more people we created a program and we call the ACE program again an aviation theme it stands for aviatrix certified engineer very similar to what Cisco did with CC IES where Cisco taught you about IP networking a little bit of Cisco we're doing the same thing we're gonna teach network architects about multi-cloud networking and architecture and yeah you'll get a little bit of aviatrix training in there but this is the missing element for people's careers and also within their organization so we're gonna we're gonna go talk about that so great great event great show when try to keep it moving I'd next want to introduce my my host he's the best in the business you guys have probably seen him multiple million times he's the co CEO and co-founder of Tube John Fourier okay awesome great great speech they're awesome I totally agree with everything you said about the explosion happening and I'm excited here at the heart of Silicon Valley to have this event it's a special digital event with the cube and aviatrix where we live streaming to millions of people as you said maybe not a million maybe not really take this program to the world this is a little special for me because multi-cloud is the hottest wave and cloud and cloud native networking is fast becoming the key engine of the innovation so we got an hour and a half of action-packed programming we have a customer panel two customer panels before that Gartner is going to come on talk about the industry we have a global system integrators we talk about how they're advising and building these networks and cloud native networking and then finally the Aces the aviatrix certified engineer is gonna talk more about their certifications and the expertise needed so let's jump right in and let's ask someone rashard to come on stage from Gartner we'll check it all up [Applause] [Music] okay so kicking things off certain started gartner the industry experts on cloud really kind of more to your background talk about your background before you got the gardener yeah before because gardener was a chief network architect of a fortune five companies with thousands of sites over the world and I've been doing everything and IT from a C programmer in the 90 to a security architect to a network engineer to finally becoming a network analyst so you rode the wave now you're covering at the marketplace with hybrid cloud and now moving quickly to multi cloud is really I was talking about cloud natives been discussed but the networking piece is super important how do you see that evolving well the way we see Enterprise adapt in cloud first thing you do about networking the initial phases they either go in a very ad hoc way is usually led by non non IT like a shadow whitey or application people or some kind of DevOps team and it's it just goes as it's completely unplanned decreed VP sees left and right with a different account and they create mesh to manage them and their direct connect or Express route to any of them so that's what that's a first approach and on the other side again it within our first approach you see what I call the lift and shift way we see like Enterprise IT trying to basically replicate what they have in a data center in the cloud so they spend a lot of time planning doing Direct Connect putting Cisco routers and f5 and Citrix and any checkpoint Palo Alto divides the data that are sent removing that to that cloud and I ask you the aha moments gonna come up a lot of our panels is where people realize that it's a multi cloud world I mean they either inherit clouds certainly they're using public cloud and on-premises is now more relevant than ever when's that aha moment that you're seeing where people go well I got to get my act together and get on this well the first but even before multi-cloud so these two approach the first one like the adduct way doesn't scale at some point idea has to save them because they don't think about the two they don't think about operations they have a bunch of VPC and multiple clouds the other way that if you do the left and shift wake they cannot take any advantages of the cloud they lose elasticity auto-scaling pay by the drink these feature of agility features so they both realize okay neither of these ways are good so I have to optimize that so I have to have a mix of what I call the cloud native services within each cloud so they start adapting like other AWS constructor is your construct or Google construct then that's I would I call the up optimal phase but even that they they realize after that they are very different all these approaches different the cloud are different identities is completely difficult to manage across clouds I mean for example AWS has accounts there's subscription and in adarand GCP their projects it's a real mess so they realize well I can't really like concentrate used the cloud the cloud product and every cloud that doesn't work so I have I'm doing multi cloud I like to abstract all of that I still wanna manage the cloud from an API to interview I don't necessarily want to bring my incumbent data center products but I have to do that in a more API driven cloud they're not they're not scaling piece and you were mentioning that's because there's too many different clouds yes that's the piece there so what are they doing whether they really building different development teams as its software what's the solution well this the solution is to start architecting the cloud that's the third phase I call that the multi cloud architect phase where they have to think about abstraction that works across cloud fact even across one cloud it might not scale as well if you start having like 10,000 security group in AWS that doesn't scale you have to manage that if you have multiple VPC it doesn't scale you need a third party identity provider so it barely scales within one cloud if you go multiple cloud it gets worse and worse see way in here what's your thoughts I thought we said this wasn't gonna be a sales pitch for aviatrix you just said exactly what we do so anyway I'm just a joke what do you see in terms of where people are in that multi cloud a lot of people you know everyone I talked to started in one cloud right but then they look and they say okay but I'm now gonna move to adjourn I'm gonna move do you see a similar thing well yes they are moving but they're not there's not a lot of application that use a tree cloud at once they move one app in deserve one app in individuals one get happened Google that's what we see so far okay yeah I mean one of the mistakes that people think is they think multi-cloud no one is ever gonna go multi-cloud for arbitrage they're not gonna go and say well today I might go into Azure because I got a better rate of my instance that's never do you agree with that's never going to happen what I've seen with enterprise is I'm gonna put the workload in the app the app decides where it runs best that may be a sure maybe Google and for different reasons and they're gonna stick there and they're not gonna move let me ask you infrastructure has to be able to support from a networking team be able to do that do you agree with that yes I agree and one thing is also very important is connecting to that cloud is kind of the easiest thing so though while I run Network part of the cloud connectivity to the cloud is kind of simple I agree IPSec VP and I reckon Express that's a simple part what's difficult and even a provisioning part is easy you can use terraform and create v pieces and v nets across which we cloud provider right what's difficult is the day-to-day operations so it's what to find a to operations what is that what does that actually mean this is the day-to-day operations after it you know the natural let's add an app let's add a server let's troubleshoot a problem so what so your life something changes how would he do so what's the big concerns I want to just get back to this cloud native networking because everyone kind of knows with cloud native apps are that's been a hot trend what is cloud native networking how do you how do you guys define that because that seems to be the oddest part of the multi-cloud wave that's coming as cloud native networking well there's no you know official garner definition but I can create one on another spot it's do it I just want to leverage the cloud construct and a cloud epi I don't want to have to install like like for example the first version was let's put a virtual router that doesn't even understand and then the cloud environment right if I have if I have to install a virtual machine it has to be cloud aware it has to understand the security group if it's a router it has to be programmable to the cloud API and and understand the cloud environment you know one things I hear a lot from either see Saussure CIOs or CXOs in general is this idea of I'm definitely on going API so it's been an API economy so API is key on that point but then they say okay I need to essentially have the right relationship with my suppliers aka clouds you call it above the clouds so the question is what do i do from an architecture standpoint do I just hire more developers and have different teams because you mentioned that's a scale point how do you solve this this problem of okay I got AWS I got GCP or Azure or whatever do I just have different teams or just expose api's where is that optimization where's the focus well I take what you need from an android point of view is a way a control plane across the three clouds and be able to use the api of the cloud to build networks but also to troubleshoot them and do they to operation so you need a view across a three cloud that takes care of routing connectivity that's you know that's the aviatrix plug of you right there so so how do you see so again your Gartner you you you you see the industry you've been a network architect how do you see this this plane out what are the what are the legacy incumbent client-server on-prem networking people gonna do well these versus people like aviatrix well how do you see that plane out well obviously all the incumbent like Arista cisco juniper NSX right they want to basically do the lift and ship or they want to bring and you know VM I want to bring in a section that cloud they call that NSX everywhere and cisco monks bring you star in the cloud recall that each guy anywhere right so everyone what and and then there's cloud vision for my red star and contrail is in the cloud so they just want to bring the management plain in the cloud but it's still based most of them it's still based on putting a VM them in controlling them right you you extend your management console to the cloud that's not truly cloud native right cloud native you almost have to build it from scratch we like to call that cloud naive clown that close one letter yeah so that was a big con surgeon i reinvent take the tea out of cloud native its cloud naive i went super viral you guys got t-shirts now i know you love it but yeah but that really ultimately is kind of a double-edged sword you got to be you can be naive on the on the architecture side and rolling out but also suppliers are can be naive so how would you define who's naive and who's not well in fact they're evolving as well so for example in cisco you it's a little bit more native than other ones because they're really ACI in the cloud you call you you really like configure api so the cloud and nsx is going that way and so is Arista but they're incumbent they have their own tools it's difficult for them they're moving slowly so it's much easier to start from scratch Avenue like and you know and network happiness started a few years ago there's only really two aviatrix was the first one they've been there for at least three or four years and there's other ones like Al Kyra for example that just started now that doing more connectivity but they want to create an overlay network across the cloud and start doing policies and trying abstracting all the clouds within one platform so I gotta ask you I interviewed an executive at VMware Sanjay Pune and he said to me at RSA last week oh the only b2 networking vendors left Cisco and VMware what's your respect what's your response to that obviously I mean when you have these waves as new brands that emerge like AV X and others though I think there'll be a lot of startups coming out of the woodwork how do you respond to that comment well there's still a data center there's still like a lot of action on campus and there's the one but from the cloud provisioning and clown networking in general I mean they're behind I think you know in fact you don't even need them to start to it you can if you're small enough you can just keep if you're in AWS you can user it with us construct they have to insert themselves I mean they're running behind they're all certainly incumbents I love the term Andy Jesse's that Amazon Web Services uses old guard new guard to talk about the industry what does the new guard have to do the new and new brands that emerge in is it be more DevOps oriented neck Nets a cops is that net ops is the programmability these are some of the key discussions we've been having what's your view on how you see this program their most important part is they have to make the network's simple for the dev teams and from you cannot have that you cannot make a phone call and get it via line in two weeks anymore so if you move to that cloud you have to make the cloud construct as simple enough so that for example a dev team could say okay I'm going to create this VP see but this VP see automatically being your associate to your account you cannot go out on the internet you have to go to the transit VP C so there's a lot of action in terms of the I am part and you have to put the control around them too so to make it as simple as possible you guys both I mean you're the COC aviatrix but also you guys a lot of experience going back to networking going back to I call the OSI mace which for us old folks know that means but you guys know this means I want to ask you the question as you look at the future of networking here a couple of objectives oh the cloud guys they got networking we're all set with them how do you respond to the fact that networking is changing and the cloud guys have their own networking what some of the pain points that's going on premises and these enterprises so are they good with the clouds what needs what are the key things that's going on in networking that makes it more than just the cloud networking what's your take on well I as I said earlier that once you you could easily provision in the cloud you can easily connect to that cloud is when you start troubleshooting application in the cloud and try to scale so this that's where the problem occurs see what you're taking on it and you'll hear from the from the customers that that we have on stage and I think what happens is all the cloud the clouds by definition designed to the 80/20 rule which means they'll design 80% of the basic functionality and they'll lead the 20% extra functionality that of course every enterprise needs they'll leave that to ISVs like aviatrix because why because they have to make money they have a service and they can't have huge instances for functionality that not everybody needs so they have to design to the common and that's they all do it right they have to and then the extra the problem is that can be an explosion that I talked about with enterprises that's holy that's what they need that they're the ones who need that extra 20% so that's that's what I see is is there's always gonna be that extra functionality the in in an automated and simple way that you talked about but yet powerful with up with the visibility and control that they expect of on prep that that's that kind of combination that yin and the yang that people like us are providing some I want to ask you were gonna ask some of the cloud architect customer panels it's the same question this pioneers doing some work here and there's also the laggards who come in behind the early adopters what's gonna be the tipping point what are some of those conversations that the cloud architects are having out there or what's the signs that they need to be on this multi cloud or cloud native networking trend what are some the signals that are going on in their environment what are some of the threshold or things that are going on that there can pay attention to well well once they have application and multiple cloud and they have they get wake up at 2:00 in the morning to troubleshoot them they don't know it's important so I think that's the that's where the robber will hit the road but as I said it's easier to prove it it's okay it's 80s it's easy user transit gateway put a few V pcs and you're done and use create some presents like equinox and do Direct Connect and Express route with Azure that looks simple is the operations that's when they'll realize okay now I need to understand our car networking works I also need a tool that give me visibility and control not button tell me that I need to understand the basic underneath it as well what are some of the day in the life scenarios that you envision happening with multi cloud because you think about what's happening it kind of has that same vibe of interoperability choice multi-vendor because you have multi clouds essentially multi vendor these are kind of old paradigms that we've lived through the client-server and internet working wave what are some of those scenarios of success and that might be possible it would be possible with multi cloud and cloud native networking well I think once you have good enough visibility to satisfy your customers you know not only like to keep the service running an application running but to be able to provision fast enough I think that's what you want to achieve small final question advice for folks watching on the live stream if they're sitting there as a cloud architect or a CXO what's your advice to them right now in this market because honestly public check hybrid cloud they're working on that that gets on-premise is done now multi-class right behind it what's your advice the first thing they should do is really try to understand cloud networking for each of their cloud providers and then understand the limitation and is what their cloud service provider offers enough or you need to look to a third party but you don't look at a third party to start to it especially an incumbent one so it's tempting to say on and I have a bunch of f5 experts nothing against f5 I'm going to bring my five in the cloud when you can use a needle be that automatically understand ease ease and auto-scaling and so on and you understand that's much simpler but sometimes you need you have five because you have requirements you have like AI rules and that kind of stuff that you use for years you cannot do it's okay I have requirement and that net I'm going to use legacy stuff and then you have to start thinking okay what about visibility control about the tree cloud but before you do that you have to understand the limitation of the existing cloud providers so first try to be as native as possible until things don't work after that you can start taking multi-cloud great insight somewhat thank you for coming someone in charge with Gardner thanks for sharing thank you appreciate it [Applause] informatica is known as the leading enterprise cloud data management company we are known for being the top in our industry in at least five different products over the last few years especially we've been transforming into a cloud model which allows us to work better with the trends of our customers in order to see agile and effective in a business you need to make sure that your products and your offerings are just as relevant in all these different clouds than what you're used to and what you're comfortable with one of the most difficult challenges we've always had is that because we're a data company we're talking about data that a customer owns some of that data may be in the cloud some of that data may be on Prem some of them data may be actually in their data center in another region or even another country and having that data connect back to our systems that are located in the cloud has always been a challenge when we first started our engagement with aviatrix we only had one plan that was Amazon it wasn't till later that a jerk came up and all of a sudden we found hey the solution we already had in place for aviatrix already working in Amazon and now works in Missouri as well before we knew it GCP came up but it really wasn't a big deal for us because we already had the same solution in Amazon and integer now just working in GCP by having a multi cloud approach we have access to all three of them but more commonly it's not just one it's actually integrations between multiple we have some data and ensure that we want to integrate with Amazon we have some data in GCP that we want to bring over to a data Lake assure one of the nice things about aviatrix is that it gives a very simple interface that my staff can understand and use and manage literally hundreds of VPNs around the world and while talking to and working with our customers who are literally around the world now that we've been using aviatrix for a couple years we're actually finding that even problems that we didn't realize we had were actually solved even before we came across the problem and it just worked cloud companies as a whole are based on reputation we need to be able to protect our reputation and part of that reputation is being able to protect our customers and being able to protect more importantly our customers data aviatrix has been helpful for us in that we only have one system that can manage this whole huge system in a simple easy direct model aviatrix is directly responsible for helping us secure and manage our customers not only across the world but across multiple clouds users don't have to be VPN or networking experts in order to be able to use the system all the members on my team can manage it all the members regardless of their experience can do different levels of it one of the unexpected two advantages of aviatrix is that I don't have to sell it to my management the fact that we're not in the news at three o'clock in the morning or that we don't have to get calls in the middle of the night no news is good news especially in networking things that used to take weeks to build are done in hours I think the most important thing about a matrix is it provides me consistency aviatrix gives me a consistent model that I can use across multiple regions multiple clouds multiple customers okay welcome back to altitude 2020 for the folks on the livestream I'm John for Steve Mulaney with CEO of aviatrix for our first of two customer panels on cloud with cloud network architects we got Bobby Willoughby they gone Luis Castillo of National Instruments and David should Nick with fact set guys welcome to the stage for this digital event come on up [Music] hey good to see you thank you okay okay customer panelist is my favorite part we get to hear the real scoop we got the gardener giving us the industry overview certainly multi clouds very relevant and cloud native networking is the hot trend with the live stream out there and the digital event so guys let's get into it the journey is you guys are pioneering this journey of multi cloud and cloud native networking and it's soon gonna be a lot more coming so I want to get into the journey what's it been like is it real you got a lot of scar tissue and what are some of the learnings yeah absolutely so multi cloud is whether or not we we accepted as a network engineers is a is a reality like Steve said about two years ago companies really decided to to just to just bite the bullet and and and move there whether or not whether or not we we accept that fact we need to now create a consistent architecture across across multiple clouds and that that is challenging without orchestration layers as you start managing different different tool sets in different languages across different clouds so that's it's really important that to start thinking about that guys on the other panelists here there's different phases of this journey some come at it from a networking perspective some come in from a problem troubleshooting what's what's your experiences yeah so from a networking perspective it's been incredibly exciting it's kind of a once-in-a-generation 'el opportunity to look at how you're building out your network you can start to embrace things like infrastructure as code that maybe your peers on the systems teams have been doing for years but it just never really worked on pram so it's really it's really exciting to look at all the opportunities that we have and then all the interesting challenges that come up that you that you get to tackle an effect said you guys are mostly AWS right yep right now though we are looking at multiple clouds we have production workloads running in multiple clouds today but a lot of the initial work has been with Amazon and you've seen it from a networking perspective that's where you guys are coming at it from yep yeah we evolved more from a customer requirement perspective started out primarily as AWS but as the customer needed more resources to measure like HPC you know as your ad things like that even recently Google at Google Analytics our journey has evolved into mortal multi-cloud environment Steve weigh in on the architecture because this has been the big conversation I want you to lead this second yeah so I mean I think you guys agree the journey you know it seems like the journey started a couple years ago got real serious the need for multi-cloud whether you're there today of course it's gonna be there in the future so that's really important I think the next thing is just architecture I'd love to hear what you you know had some comments about architecture matters it all starts I mean every Enterprise that I talk to maybe talk about architecture and the importance of architecture maybe Bobby it's a particular perspective we sorted a journey five years ago Wow okay and we're just now starting our fourth evolution of our network architect and we'll call it networking security net sec yep adverse adjusters network and that fourth generation or architectures be based primarily upon Palo Alto Networks an aviatrix a matrix doing the orchestration piece of it but that journey came because of the need for simplicity okay I need for multi-cloud orchestration without us having to go and do reprogramming efforts across every cloud as it comes along right I guess the other question I also had around architectures also Louis maybe just talk about I know we've talked a little bit about you know scripting right and some of your thoughts on that yeah absolutely so so for us we started we started creating the network constructs with cloud formation and we've we've stuck with that for the most part what's interesting about that is today on premise we have a lot of a lot of automation around around how we provision networks but cloud formation has become a little bit like the new manual for us so we're now having issues with having to to automate that component and making it consistent with our on-premise architecture making it consistent with Azure architecture and Google cloud so it's really interesting to see to see companies now bring that layer of abstraction that SD when brought to the to the wine side now it's going up into into the into the cloud networking architecture so on the fourth generation of you mentioned you're in the fourth gen architecture what do you guys what have you learned is there any lessons scar tissue what to avoid what worked what was some of the there was a path that's probably the biggest list and there is when you think you finally figured it out you have it right Amazon will change something as you change something you know transit gateways a game changer so in listening to the business requirements is probably the biggest thing we need to do up front but I think from a simplicity perspective like I said we don't want to do things four times we want to do things one time we won't be able to write to an API which aviatrix has and have them do the orchestration for us so that we don't have to do it four times how important is architecture in the progression is it you guys get thrown in the deep end to solve these problems or you guys zooming out and looking at it it's a I mean how are you guys looking at the architecture I mean you can't get off the ground if you don't have the network there so all of those there we've gone through similar evolutions we're on our fourth or fifth evolution I think about what we started off with Amazon without a direct connect gate without a transit Gateway without a lot of the things that are available today kind of the 80/20 that Steve was talking about just because it wasn't there doesn't mean we didn't need it so we needed to figure out a way to do it we couldn't say oh you need to come back to the network team in a year and maybe Amazon will have a solution for it right you need to do it now and in evolve later and maybe optimize or change the way you're doing things in the future but don't sit around and wait you can I'd love to have you guys each individually answer this question for the live stream because it comes up a lot a lot of cloud architects out in the community what should they be thinking about the folks that are coming into this proactively and/or realizing the business benefits are there what advice would you guys give them an architecture what should be they be thinking about and what are some guiding principles you could share so I would start with looking at an architecture model that that can that can spread and and give consistency they're different to different cloud vendors that you will absolutely have to support cloud vendors tend to want to pull you into using their native toolset and that's good if only it was realistic to talk about only one cloud but because it doesn't it's it's it's super important to talk about and have a conversation with the business and with your technology teams about a consistent model so that's the David yeah talking as earlier about day two operations so how do I design how do I do my day one work so that I'm not you know spending eighty percent of my time troubleshooting or managing my network because I'm doing that then I'm missing out on ways that I can make improvements or embrace new technologies so it's really important early on to figure out how do I make this as low maintenance as possible so that I can focus on the things that the team really should be focusing on Bobby your advice the architect I don't know what else I can do that simplicity of operations is key alright so the holistic view of day to operation you mentioned let's can jump in day one is your your your getting stuff set up day two is your life after all right this is kinda what you're getting at David so what does that look like what are you envisioning as you look at that 20 mile stair out post multi-cloud world what are some of the things that you want in a day to operations yeah infrastructure is code is really important to us so how do we how do we design it so that we can fit start making network changes and fitting them into like a release pipeline and start looking at it like that rather than somebody logging into a router CLI and troubleshooting things on in an ad hoc nature so moving more towards the DevOps model is anything on that day - yeah I would love to add something so in terms of day 2 operations you can you can either sort of ignore the day 2 operations for a little while where you get well you get your feet wet or you can start approaching it from the beginning the fact is that the the cloud native tools don't have a lot of maturity in that space and when you run into an issue you're gonna end up having a bad day going through millions and millions of logs just to try to understand what's going on so that's something that that the industry just now is beginning to realize it's it's such a such a big gap I think that's key because for us we're moving to more of an event-driven or operations in the past monitoring got the job done it's impossible to modern monitor something there's nothing there when the event happens all right so the event-driven application and then detect is important yeah I think garden was all about the cloud native wave coming into networking that's gonna be a serious thing I want to get you guys perspectives I know you have different views of how you come into the journey and how you're executing and I always say the beauties in the eye of the beholder and that kind of applies how the networks laid out so Bobby you guys do a lot of high-performance encryption both on AWS and Azure that's kind of a unique thing for you how are you seeing that impact with multi cloud yeah and that's a new requirement for us to where we we have an intern crypt and they they ever get the question should I encryption and I'll encrypt the answer is always yes you should encrypt when you can encrypt for our perspective we we need to migrate a bunch of data from our data centers we have some huge data centers and then getting that data to the cloud is the timely experiencing some cases so we have been mandated that we have to encrypt everything leaving the data center so we're looking at using the aviatrix insane mode appliances to be able to encrypt you know 10 20 gigabits of data as it moves to the cloud itself David you're using terraform you got fire Ned you've got a lot of complexity in your network what do you guys look at the future for yours environment yeah so something exciting that or yeah now is fire net so for our security team they obviously have a lot of a lot of knowledge base around Palo Alto and with our commitments to our clients you know it's it's it's not very easy to shift your security model to a specific cloud vendor right so there's a lot of stuck to compliance of things like that where being able to take some of what you've you know you've worked on for years on Bram and put it in the cloud and have the same type of assurance that things are gonna work and be secure in the same way that they are on prem helps make that journey into the cloud a lot easier and Louis you guys got scripting and get a lot of things going on what's your what's your unique angle on this yeah no absolutely so full disclosure I'm not a not not an aviatrix customer yet it's ok we want to hear the truth that's good Ellis what are you thinking about what's on your mind no really when you when you talk about implementing the tool like this it's really just really important to talk about automation and focus on on value so when you talk about things like and things like so yeah encrypting tunnels and encrypting the paths and those things are it should it should should be second nature really when you when you look at building those backends and managing them with your team it becomes really painful so tools like aviatrix that that add a lot of automation it's out of out of sight out of mind you can focus on the value and you don't have to focus on so I gotta ask you guys I see AV traces here they're they're a supplier to the sector but you guys are customers everyone's pitching you stuff people are not gonna buy my stuff how do you guys have that conversation with the suppliers like the cloud vendors and other folks what's the what's it like where API all the way you got to support this what are some of the what are some of your requirements how do you talk to and evaluate people that walk in and want to knock on your door and pitch you something what's the conversation like um it's definitely it's definitely API driven we we definitely look at the at that the API structure of the vendors provide before we select anything that that is always first in mind and also what a problem are we really trying to solve usually people try to sell or try to give us something that isn't really valuable like implementing a solution on the on the on the cloud isn't really it doesn't really add a lot of value that's where we go David what's your conversation like with suppliers you have a certain new way to do things as as becomes more agile and essentially the networking become more dynamic what are some of the conversation is with the either incumbents or new new vendors that you're having what it what do you require yeah so ease of use is definitely definitely high up there we've had some vendors come in and say you know hey you know when you go to set this up we're gonna want to send somebody on site and they're gonna sit with you for your day to configure it and that's kind of a red flag what wait a minute you know do we really if one of my really talented engineers can't figure it out on his own what's going on there and why is that so you know having having some ease-of-use and the team being comfortable with it and understanding it is really important Bobby how about you I mean the old days was do a bake-off and you know the winner takes all I mean is it like that anymore what's the Volvic bake-off last year first you win so but that's different now because now when you you get the product you can install the product in AWS energy or have it up and running a matter of minutes and so the key is is they can you be operational you know within hours or days instead of weeks but but do we also have the flexibility to customize it to meet your needs could you want to be you won't be put into a box with the other customers we have needs that surpass their cut their needs yeah I almost see the challenge that you guys are living where you've got the cloud immediate value to make an roll-up any solutions but then you have might have other needs so you've got to be careful not to buy into stuff that's not shipping so you're trying to be proactive at the same time deal with what you got I mean how do you guys see that evolving because multi-cloud to me is definitely relevant but it's not yet clear how to implement across how do you guys look at this baked versus you know future solutions coming how do you balance that so again so right now we we're we're taking the the ad hoc approach and and experimenting with the different concepts of cloud and really leveraging the the native constructs of each cloud but but there's a there's a breaking point for sure you don't you don't get to scale this I like like Simone said and you have to focus on being able to deliver a developer they're their sandbox or their play area for the for the things that they're trying to build quickly and the only way to do that is with the with with some sort of consistent orchestration layer that allows you to so you've got a lot more stuff to be coming pretty quickly IDEs area I do expect things to start to start maturing quite quite quickly this year and you guys see similar trend new stuff coming fast yeah part of the biggest challenge we've got now is being able to segment within the network being able to provide segmentation between production on production workloads even businesses because we support many businesses worldwide and and isolation between those is a key criteria there so the ability to identify and quickly isolate those workloads is key so the CIOs that are watching or that are saying hey take that he'll do multi cloud and then you know the bottoms up organization think pause you're kind of like off a little bit it's not how it works I mean what is the reality in terms of implementing you know and as fast as possible because the business benefits are clear but it's not always clear in the technology how to move that fast yeah what are some of the barriers one of the blockers what are the enabler I think the reality is is that you may not think you're multi-cloud but your business is right so I think the biggest barriers there is understanding what the requirements are and how best to meet those requirements in a secure manner because you need to make sure that things are working from a latency perspective that things work the way they did and get out of the mind shift that you know it was a cheery application in the data center it doesn't have to be a Tier three application in the cloud so lift and shift is is not the way to go scale is a big part of what I see is the competitive advantage to allow these clouds and used to be proprietary network stacks in the old days and then open systems came that was a good thing but as clouds become bigger there's kind of an inherent lock in there with the scale how do you guys keep the choice open how're you guys thinking about interoperability what are some of the conversations and you guys are having around those key concepts well when we look at when we look at the moment from a networking perspective it it's really key for you to just enable enable all the all the clouds to be to be able to communicate between them developers will will find a way to use the cloud that best suits their their business team and and like like you said it's whether whether you're in denial or not of the multi cloud fact that your company is in already that's it becomes really important for you to move quickly yeah and a lot of it also hinges on how well is the provider embracing what that specific cloud is doing so are they are they swimming with Amazon or sure and just helping facilitate things they're doing the you know the heavy lifting API work for you or they swimming upstream and they're trying to hack it all together in a messy way and so that helps you you know stay out of the lock-in because they're you know if they're doing if they're using Amazon native tools to help you get where you need to be it's not like Amazon's gonna release something in the future that completely you know makes you have designed yourself into a corner so the closer they're more cloud native they are the more the easier it is to to deploy but you also need to be aligned in such a way that you can take advantage of those cloud native technologies will it make sense tgw is a game-changer in terms of cost and performance right so to completely ignore that would be wrong but you know if you needed to have encryption you know teach Adobe's not encrypted so you need to have some type of a gateway to do the VPN encryption you know so the aviatrix tool give you the beauty of both worlds you can use tgw with a gateway Wow real quick in the last minute we have I want to just get a quick feedback from you guys I hear a lot of people say to me hey the I picked the best cloud for the workload you got and then figure out multi cloud behind the scenes so that seems to be do you guys agree with that I mean is it do I go Mull one cloud across the whole company or this workload works great on AWS that work was great on this from a cloud standpoint do you agree with that premise and then wit is multi clouds did you mall together yeah from from an application perspective it it can be per workload but it can also be an economical decision certain enterprise contracts will will pull you in one direction that add value but the the network problem is still the same doesn't go away yeah yeah I mean you don't want to be trying to fit a square into a round hall right so if it works better on that cloud provider then it's our job to make sure that that service is there and people can use it agree you just need to stay ahead of the game make sure that the network infrastructure is there secure is available and is multi cloud capable yeah I'm at the end of the day you guys just validating that it's the networking game now how cloud storage compute check networking is where the action is awesome thanks for your insights guys appreciate you coming on the panel appreciate thanks thank you [Applause] [Music] [Applause] okay welcome back on the live feed I'm John fritz T Blaney my co-host with aviatrix I'm with the cube for the special digital event our next customer panel got great another set of cloud network architects Justin Smith was aura Justin broadly with Ellie Mae and Amit Oh tree job with Cooper welcome to stage [Applause] all right thank you thank you oK you've got all the cliff notes from the last session welcome rinse and repeat yeah yeah we're going to go under the hood a little bit I think they nailed the what we've been reporting and we've been having this conversation around networking is where the action is because that's the end of the day you got a move a pack from A to B and you get workloads exchanging data so it's really killer so let's get started Amit what are you seeing as the journey of multi cloud as you go under the hood and say okay I got to implement this I have to engineer the network make it enabling make it programmable make it interoperable across clouds I mean that's like I mean almost sounds impossible to me what's your take yeah I mean it's it seems impossible but if you are running an organization which is running infrastructure as a cordon all right it is easily doable like you can use tools out there that's available today you can use third-party products that can do a better job but but put your architecture first don't wait architecture may not be perfect put the best architecture that's available today and be agile to ET rate and make improvements over the time we got to Justin's over here so I have to be careful when I point a question adjusting they both have to answer okay journeys what's the journey been like I mean is there phases we heard that from Gardner people come into multi cloud and cloud native networking from different perspectives what's your take on the journey Justin yeah I mean from Mars like - we started out very much focused on one cloud and as we started doing errands we started doing new products the market the need for multi cloud comes very apparent very quickly for us and so you know having an architecture that we can plug in play into and be able to add and change things as it changes is super important for what we're doing in the space just in your journey yes for us we were very ad hoc oriented and the idea is that we were reinventing all the time trying to move into these new things and coming up with great new ideas and so rather than it being some iterative approach with our deployments that became a number of different deployments and so we shifted that tour and the network has been a real enabler of this is that it there's one network and it touches whatever cloud we want it to touch and it touches the data centers that we need it to touch and it touches the customers that we need it to touch our job is to make sure that the services that are of and one of those locations are available in all of the locations so the idea is not that we need to come up with this new solution every time it's that we're just iterating on what we've already decided to do before we get the architecture section I want to ask you guys a question I'm a big fan of you know let the app developers have infrastructure as code so check but having the right cloud run that workload I'm a big fan of that if it works great but we just heard from the other panel you can't change the network so I want to get your thoughts what is cloud native networking and is that the engine really that's the enabler for this multi cloud trend but you guys taken we'll start with Amit what do you think about that yeah so you are gonna have workloads running in different clouds and the workloads would have affinity to one cloud over other but how you expose that it's matter of how you are going to build your networks how we are going to run security how we are going to do egress ingress out of it so it's the big problem how do you split says what's the solution what's the end the key pain points and problem statement I mean the key pain point for most companies is how do you take your traditional on-premise network and then blow that out to the cloud in a way that makes sense you know IP conflicts you have IP space you pub public eye peas and premise as well as in the cloud and how do you kind of make them a sense of all of that and I think that's where tools like aviatrix make a lot of sense in that space from our site it's it's really simple it's latency and bandwidth and availability these don't change whether we're talking about cloud or data center or even corporate IT networking so our job when when these all of these things are simplified into like s3 for instance and our developers want to use those we have to be able to deliver that and for a particular group or another group that wants to use just just GCP resources these aren't we have to support these requirements and these wants as opposed to saying hey that's not a good idea now our job is to enable them not to disable them do you think you guys think infrastructure as code which I love that I think it's that's the future it is we saw that with DevOps but I just start getting the networking is it getting down to the network portion where it's network as code because storage and compute working really well is seeing all kubernetes on ServiceMaster and network is code reality is it there is it still got work to do it's absolutely there I mean you mentioned net DevOps and it's it's very real I mean in Cooper we build our networks through terraform and on not only just out of fun build an API so that we can consistently build V nets and VPC all across in the same way we get to do it yeah and even security groups and then on top and aviatrix comes in we can peer the networks bridge bridge all the different regions through code same with you guys but yeah about this everything we deploy is done with automation and then we also run things like lambda on top to make changes in real time we don't make manual changes on our network in the data center funny enough it's still manual but the cloud has enabled us to move into this automation mindset and and all my guys that's what they focus on is bringing what now what they're doing in the cloud into the data center which is kind of opposite of what it should be that's full or what it used to be it's full DevOps then yes yeah I mean for us it was similar on premise still somewhat very manual although we're moving more Norton ninja and terraform concepts but everything in the production environment is colored confirmation terraform code and now coming into the datacenter same I just wanted to jump in on a Justin Smith one of the comment that you made because it's something that we always talk about a lot is that the center of gravity of architecture used to be an on-prem and now it's shifted in the cloud and once you have your strategic architecture what you--what do you do you push that everywhere so what you used to see at the beginning of cloud was pushing the architecture on prem into cloud now i want to pick up on what you said to you others agree that the center of architect of gravity is here i'm now pushing what i do in the cloud back into on Prem and wait and then so first that and then also in the journey where are you at from zero to a hundred of actually in the journey to cloud do you 50% there are you 10% yes I mean are you evacuating data centers next year I mean were you guys at yeah so there's there's two types of gravity that you typically are dealing with no migration first is data gravity and your data set and where that data lives and then the second is the network platform that interrupts all that together right in our case the data gravity sold mostly on Prem but our network is now extend out to the app tier that's going to be in cloud right eventually that data gravity will also move to cloud as we start getting more sophisticated but you know in our journey we're about halfway there about halfway through the process we're taking a handle of you know lift and shift and when did that start and we started about three years ago okay okay go by it's a very different story it started from a garage and one hundred percent on the clock it's a business spend management platform as a software-as-a-service one hundred percent on the cloud it was like ten years ago right yes yeah you guys are riding the wave love that architecture Justin I want to ask you Sora you guys mentioned DevOps I mean obviously we saw the huge observability wave which is essentially network management for the cloud in my opinion right yeah it's more dynamic but this is about visibility we heard from the last panel you don't know what's being turned on or turned off from a services standpoint at any given time how is all this playing out when you start getting into the DevOps down well this layer this is the big challenge for all of us as visibility when you talk transport within a cloud you know we very interestingly we have moved from having a backbone that we bought that we owned that would be data center connectivity we now I work for soar as a subscription billing company so we want to support the subscription mindset so rather than going and buying circuits and having to wait three months to install and then coming up with some way to get things connected and resiliency and redundancy I my backbone is in the cloud I use the cloud providers interconnections between regions to transport data across and and so if you do that with their native solutions you you do lose visibility there there are areas in that that you don't get which is why controlling you know controllers and having some type of management plane is a requirement for us to do what we're supposed to do and provide consistency while doing it a great conversation I loved when you said earlier latency bandwidth availability with your sim pop3 things guys SLA I mean you just do ping times are between clouds it's like you don't know what you're getting for round-trip times this becomes a huge kind of risk management black hole whatever you want to call blind spot how are you guys looking at the interconnects between clouds because you know I can see that working from you know ground to cloud I'm per cloud but when you start doing with multi clouds workloads I mean s LA's will be all over the map won't they just inherently but how do you guys view that yeah I think we talked about workload and we know that the workloads are going to be different in different clouds but they are going to be calling each other so it's very important to have that visibility that you can see how data is flowing at what latency and whatever ability is our is there and our authority needs to operate on that so it's so you use the software dashboard look at the times and look at the latency in the old days strong so on open so on you try to figure it out and then your days you have to figure out just what she reinsert that because you're in the middle of it yeah I mean I think the the key thing there is that we have to plan for that failure we have to plan for that latency in our applications that start thinking start tracking in your SLI something you start planning for and you loosely couple these services and a much more micro services approach so you actually can handle that kind of failure or that type of unknown latency and unfortunately the cloud has made us much better at handling exceptions a much better way you guys are all great examples of cloud native from day one and you guys had when did you have the tipping point moment or the Epiphany of saying a multi clouds real I can't ignore it I got to factor it into all my design design principles and and everything you're doing what's it was there a moment was it was it from day one no there were two reasons one was the business so in business there was some affinity to not be in one cloud or to be in one cloud and that drove from the business side so as a cloud architect our responsibility was to support that business and other is the technology some things are really running better in like if you are running dot Network load or you are going to run machine learning or AI so that you have you would have that reference of one cloud over other so it was the bill that we got from AWS I mean that's that's what drives a lot of these conversations is the financial viability of what you're building on top of it which is so we this failure domain idea which is which is fairly interesting is how do I solve or guarantee against a failure domain you have methodologies with you know back-end direct connects or interconnect with GCP all of these ideas are something that you have to take into account but that transport layer should not matter to whoever we're building this for our job is to deliver the frames in the packets what that flows across how you get there we want to make that seamless and so whether it's a public internet API call or it's a back-end connectivity through Direct Connect it doesn't matter it just has to meet a contract that you signed with your application folks yeah that's the availability piece just in your thoughts on anything any common uh so actually a multi clouds become something much more recent in the last six to eight months I'd say we always kind of had a very much an attitude of like moving to Amazon from our private cloud is hard enough why complicate it further but the realities of the business and as we start seeing you know improvements in Google and Asia and different technology spaces the need for multi cloud becomes much more important as well as our acquisition strategies I matured we're seeing that companies that used to be on premise that we typically acquire are now very much already on a cloud and if they're on a cloud I need to plug them into our ecosystem and so that's really change our multi cloud story in a big way I'd love to get your thoughts on the clouds versus the clouds because you know you compare them Amazon's got more features they're rich with features I see the bills are how could people using them but Google's got a great network Google's networks pretty damn good and then you got a sure what's the difference between the clouds who with they've evolved something whether they peak in certain areas better than others what what are the characteristics which makes one cloud better do they have a unique feature that makes as you're better than Google and vice versa what do you guys think about the different clouds yeah to my experience I think there is approaches different in many places Google has a different approach very DevOps friendly and you can run your workload like the your network and spend regions time I mean but our application ready to accept that MS one is evolving I mean I remember 10 years back Amazon's Network was a flat network we will be launching servers and 10.0.0.0 so the VP sees concept came out multi-account came out so they are evolving as you are at a late start but because they have a late start they saw the pattern and they they have some mature set up on the yeah I think they're all trying to say they're equal in their own ways I think they all have very specific design philosophies that allow them to be successful in different ways and you have to kind of keep that in mind as you architectural solution for example amazon has a very much a very regional affinity they don't like to go cross region in their architecture whereas Google is very much it's a global network we're gonna think about as a global solution I think Google also has advantages its third to market and so has seen what Asia did wrong it seemed with AWS did wrong and it's made those improvements and I think that's one of their big advantage at great scale to Justin thoughts on the cloud so yeah Amazon built from the system up and Google built from the network down so their ideas and approaches are from a global versus or regional I agree with you completely that that is the big number one thing but the if you look at it from the outset interestingly the inability or the ability for Amazon to limit layer 2 broadcasting and and what that really means from a VPC perspective changed all the routing protocols you can use all the things that we have built inside of a data center to provide resiliency and and and make things seamless to users all of that disappeared and so because we had to accept that at the VPC level now we have to accept it at the LAN level Google's done a better job of being able to overcome those things and provide those traditional Network facilities to us just great panel can go all day here's awesome so I heard we could we'll get to the cloud native naive questions so kind of think about what's not even what's cloud is that next but I got to ask you had a conversation with a friend he's like Wayne is the new land so if you think about what the land was at a datacenter when is the new link you could talking about the cloud impact so that means st when the old st way is kind of changing into the new land how do you guys look at that because if you think about it what lands were for inside a premises was all about networking high-speed but now when you take the win and make it essentially a land do you agree with that and how do you view this trend and is it good or bad or is it ugly and what's what you guys take on this yeah I think it's a it's a thing that you have to work with your application architect so if you are managing networks and if you are a sorry engineer you need to work with them to expose the unreliability that would bring in so the application has to hand a lot of this the difference in the latencies and and the reliability has to be worked through the application there Lanois same concept is that BS I think we've been talking about for a long time the erosion of the edge and so is this is just a continuation of that journey we've been on for the last several years as we get more and more cloud native and we start about API is the ability to lock my data in place and not be able to access it really goes away and so I think this is just continuation that thing I think it has challenges we start talking about weighing scale versus land scale the tooling doesn't work the same the scale of that tooling is much larger and the need to automation is much much higher in a way and than it was in a land that's where is what you're seeing so much infrastructure as code yeah yes so for me I'll go back again to this its bandwidth and its latency right that bet define those two land versus win but the other thing that's comes up more and more with cloud deployments is where is our security boundary and where can I extend this secure aware appliance or set of rules to to protect what's inside of it so for us we're able to deliver vr af-s or route forwarding tables for different segments wherever we're at in the world and so they're they're trusted to talk to each other but if they're gonna go to someplace that's outside of their their network then they have to cross a security boundary and where we enforce policy very heavily so for me there's it's not just land when it's it's how does environment get to environment more importantly that's a great point and security we haven't talked to yet but that's got to be baked in from the beginning this architecture thoughts on security are you guys are dealing with it yeah start from the base have apt to have security built in have TLS have encryption on the data I transit data at rest but as you bring the application to the cloud and they are going to go multi-cloud talking to over the Internet in some places well have apt web security I mean I mean our principles day Security's day zero every day and so we we always build it into our design build into our architecture into our applications it's encrypt everything it's TLS everywhere it's make sure that that data is secured at all times yeah one of the cool trends at RSA just as a side note was the data in use encryption piece which is a homomorphic stuff is interesting all right guys final question you know we heard on the earlier panel was also trending at reinvent we take the tea out of cloud native it spells cloud naive okay they got shirts now aviatrix kind of got this trend going what does that mean to be naive so if you're to your peers out there watching a live stream and also the suppliers that are trying to supply you guys with technology and services what's naive look like and what's native look like when is someone naive about implementing all this stuff so for me it's because we are in hundred-percent cloud for us it's main thing is ready for the change and you will you will find new building blocks coming in and the network design will evolve and change so don't be naive and think that it's static you wall with the change I think the big naivety that people have is that well I've been doing it this way for 20 years and been successful it's going to be successful in cloud the reality is that's not the case you have to think some of the stuff a little bit differently and you need to think about it early enough so that you can become cloud native and really enable your business on cloud yeah for me it's it's being open minded right the the our industry the network industry as a whole has been very much I am smarter than everybody else and we're gonna tell everybody how it's going to be done and we had we fell into a lull when it came to producing infrastructure and and and so embracing this idea that we can deploy a new solution or a new environment in minutes as opposed to hours or weeks or four months in some cases is really important and and so you know it's are you being closed-minded native being open minded exactly and and it took a for me it was that was a transformative kind of where I was looking to solve problems in a cloud way as opposed to looking to solve problems in this traditional old-school way all right I know we're out of time but I ask one more question so you guys so good it could be a quick answer what's the BS language when you the BS meter goes off when people talk to you about solutions what's the kind of jargon that you hear that's the BS meter going off what are people talking about that in your opinion you here you go that's total BS but what triggers use it so that I have two lines out of movies that are really I can if I say them without actually thinking them it's like 1.21 jigowatts are you out of your mind from Back to the Future right somebody's getting a bang and then and then Martin Mull and and Michael Keaton and mr. mom when he goes to 22 21 whatever it takes yeah those two right there if those go off in my mind somebody's talking to me I know they're full of baloney so a lot of speech would be a lot of speeds and feeds a lot of data did it instead of talking about what you're actually doing and solutioning for you're talking about well I does this this this and any time I start seeing the cloud vendor start benchmarking against each other it's your workload is your workload you need to benchmark yourself don't don't listen to the marketing on that that's that's all what triggers you and the bsp I think if somebody explains you and not simple they cannot explain you in simplicity then that's good all right guys thanks for the great insight great time how about a round of applause DX easy solutions integrating company than we service customers from all industry verticals and we're helping them to move to the digital world so as a solutions integrator we interface with many many customers that have many different types of needs and they're on their IT journey to modernize their applications into the cloud so we encounter many different scenarios many different reasons for those migrations all of them seeking to optimize their IT solutions to better enable their business we have our CPS organization it's cloud platform services we support AWS does your Google Alibaba corkle will help move those workloads to wherever it's most appropriate no one buys the house for the plumbing equally no one buys the solution for the networking but if the plumbing doesn't work no one likes the house and if this network doesn't work no one likes a solution so network is ubiquitous it is a key component of every solution we do the network connectivity is the lifeblood of any architecture without network connectivity nothing works properly planning and building a scalable robust network that's gonna be able to adapt with the application needs critical when encountering some network design and talking about speed the deployment aviatrix came up in discussion and we then further pursued an area DHT products have incorporated aviatrix is part of a new offering that we are in the process of developing that really enhances our ability to provide cloud connectivity for the Lyons cloud connectivity is a new line of networking services so we're getting into as our clients moving the hybrid cloud networking it is much different than our traditional based services and aviatrix provides a key component in that service before we found aviatrix we were using just native peering connections but there wasn't a way to visualize all those peering connections and with multiple accounts multiple contacts for security with a VA Church were able to visualize those different peering connections of security groups it helped a lot especially in areas of early deployment scenarios were quickly able to then take those deployment scenarios and turn them into scripts that we can then deploy repeatedly their solutions were designed to work with the cloud native capabilities first and where those cloud native capabilities fall short they then have solution sets that augment those capabilities I was pleasantly surprised number one with the aviatrix team as a whole and their level of engagement with us you know we weren't only buying the product we were buying a team that came on board to help us implement and solution that was really good to work together to learn both what aviatrix had to offer as well as enhancements that we had to bring that aviatrix was able to put into their product and meet our needs even better aviatrix was a joy to find because they really provided us the technology that we needed in order to provide multi cloud connectivity that really added to the functionality that you can't get from the basically providing services we're taking our customers on a journey to simplify and optimize their IT maybe Atrix certainly has made my job much easier okay welcome back to altitude 2020 for the digital event for the live feed welcome back I'm John Ford with the cube with Steve Mulaney CEO aviatrix for the next panel from global system integrators the folks who are building and working with folks on their journey to multi cloud and cloud native networking we've got a great panel George Buckman with dxc and Derek Monahan with wwt welcome to the stage [Applause] [Music] okay you guys are the ones out there advising building and getting down and dirty with multi cloud and cloud native network and we just heard from the customer panel you can see the diversity of where people come in to the journey of cloud it kind of depends upon where you are but the trends are all clear cloud native networking DevOps up and down the stack this has been the main engine what's your guys take of the disk Jerry to multi cloud what do you guys seeing yeah it's it's critical I mean we're seeing all of our enterprise customers enter into this they've been through the migrations of the easy stuff you know now they're trying to optimize and get more improvement so now the tough stuffs coming on right and you know they need their data processing near where their data is so that's driving them to a multi cloud environment okay we heard some of the edge stuff I mean you guys are exactly you've seen this movie before but now it's a whole new ballgame what's your take yeah so I'll give you a hint so our practice it's not called the cloud practice it's the multi cloud practice and so if that gives you a hint of how we approach things it's very consultative and so when we look at what the trends are let's look a little year ago about a year ago we're having conversations with customers let's build a data center in the cloud let's put some VP C's let's throw some firewalls with some DNS and other infrastructure out there and let's hope it works this isn't a science project so what we're trying to see is customers are starting to have more of a vision and we're helping with that consultative nature but it's totally based on the business and you got to start understanding how the lines of business are using the and then we evolved into the next journey which is a foundational approach to what are some of the problem statement customers are solving when they come to you what are the top things that are on their my house or the ease of use of Julie all that stuff but what specifically they digging into yeah so complexity I think when you look at a multi cloud approach in my view is network requirements are complex you know I think they are but I think the approach can be let's simplify that so one thing that we try to do this is how we talk to customers is let's just like you simplify an aviatrix simplifies the automation orchestration of cloud networking we're trying to simplify the design the planning implementation of infrastructure across multiple workloads across multiple platforms and so the way we do it is we sit down we look at not just use cases and not just the questions in common we tis anticipate we actually build out based on the business and function requirements we build out a strategy and then create a set of documents and guess what we actually build in the lab and that lab that we platform we built proves out this reference architecture actually works absolutely we implement similar concepts I mean we they're proven practices they work great so well George you mentioned that the hard part's now upon us are you referring to networking what is specifically were you getting at Terrance's the easy parts done now so for the enterprises themselves migrating their more critical apps or more difficult apps into the environments you know they've just we've just scratched the surface I believe on what enterprises are doing to move into the cloud to optimize their environments to take advantage of the scale and speed to deployment and to be able to better enable their businesses so they're just now really starting the - so do you get you guys see what I talked about them in terms of their Cambrian explosion I mean you're both monster system integrators with you know top fortune enterprise customers you know really rely on you for for guidance and consulting and so forth and boy they're networks is that something that you you've seen I mean does that resonate did you notice a year and a half ago and all of a sudden the importance of cloud for enterprise shoot up yeah I mean we're seeing it not okay in our internal environment as you know we're a huge company or as customers so we're experiencing that internal okay and every one of our other customers so I have another question oh but I don't know the answer to this and the lawyer never asks a question that you don't know the answer to but I'm gonna ask it anyway DX c + w WT massive system integrators why aviatrix yep so great question Steve so I think the way we approach things I think we have a similar vision a similar strategy how you approach things how we approach things that world by technology number one we want to simplify the complexity and so that's your number one priorities let's take the networking let's simplify it and I think part of the other point I'm making is we have we see this automation piece as not just an afterthought anymore if you look at what customers care about visibility and automation is probably the top three maybe the third on the list and I think that's where we see the value and I think the partnership that we're building and what I would I get excited about is not just putting yours in our lab and showing customers how it works is Co developing a solution with you figuring out hey how can we make this better right visibility's a huge thing jump in security alone network everything's around visibility what automation do you see happening in terms of progression order of operations if you will it's a low-hanging fruit what are people working on now what are what are some of the aspirational goals around when you start thinking about multi cloud and automation yep so I wanted to get back to answer that question I want to answer your question you know what led us there and why aviatrix you know in working some large internal IT projects and and looking at how we were gonna integrate those solutions you know we like to build everything with recipes where network is probably playing catch-up in the DevOps world but with a DevOps mindset looking to speed to deploy support all those things so when you start building your recipes you take a little of this a little of that and you mix it all together well when you look around you say wow look there's this big bag of a VHS let me plop that in that solves a big part of my problems that I have to speed to integrate speed to deploy and the operational views that I need to run this so that was 11 years about reference architectures yeah absolutely so you know they came with a full slate of reference textures already the out there and ready to go that fit our needs so it's very very easy for us to integrate those into our recipes what do you guys think about all the multi vendor interoperability conversations that have been going on choice has been a big part of multi-cloud in terms of you know customers want choice they didn't you know they'll put a workload in the cloud that works but this notion of choice and interoperability is become a big conversation it is and I think our approach and that's why we talk to customers is let's let's speed and be risk of that decision making process and how do we do that because the interoperability is key you're not just putting it's not just a single vendor we're talking you know many many vendors I mean think about the average number of cloud application as a customer uses a business and enterprise business today you know it's it's above 30 it's it's skyrocketing and so what we do and we look at it from an interoperability approach is how do things interoperate we test it out we validate it we build a reference architecture it says these are the critical design elements now let's build one with aviatrix and show how this works with aviatrix and I think the the important part there though is the automation piece that we add to it in visibility so I think the visibility is what's what I see lacking across the industry today and the cloud needed that's been a big topic okay in terms of aviatrix as you guys see them coming in they're one of the ones that are emerging and the new brands emerging but multi-cloud you still got the old guard incumbents with huge footprints how our customers dealing with that that kind of component and dealing with both of them yeah I mean where we have customers that are ingrained with a particular vendor and you know we have partnerships with many vendors so our objective is to provide the solution that meets that client and you they all want multi vendor they all want interoperability correct all right so I got to ask you guys a question while we were defining day two operations what does that mean I mean you guys are looking at the big business and technical components of architecture what does day to Operations mean what's the definition of that yeah so I think from our perspective my experience we you know day to operations whether it's it's not just the you know the orchestration piece and setting up and let it a lot of automate and have some you know change control you're looking at this from a data perspective how do I support this ongoing and make it easy to make changes as we evolve the the the cloud is very dynamic the the nature of how the fast is expanding the number of features is astonish trying to keep up to date with a number of just networking capabilities and services that are added so I think day to operation starts with a fundable understanding of you know building out supporting a customer's environments and making it the automation piece easy from from you know a distance I think yeah and you know taking that to the next level of being able to enable customers to have catalog items that they can pick and choose hey I need this network connectivity from this cloud location back to this on pram and being able to have that automated and provisioned just simply by ordering it for the folks watching out there guys take a minute to explain as you guys are in the trenches doing a lot of good work what are some of the engagement that you guys get into how does that progress what is that what's what happens do they call you up and say hey I need some multi-cloud or you're already in there I mean take us through why how someone can engage to use a global si to come in and make this thing happen what's looks like typical engagement look like yeah so from our perspective we typically have a series of workshops in a methodology that we kind of go along the journey number one we have a foundational approach and I don't mean foundation meaning the network foundation that's a very critical element we got a factor in security we've got a factor in automation so we think about foundation we do a workshop that starts with education a lot of times we'll go in and we'll just educate the customer what is VP she's sharing you know what is a private Lincoln or how does that impact your business we have customers I want to share services out in an ecosystem with other customers and partners well there's many ways to accomplish that so our goal is to you know understand those requirements and then build that strategy with them thoughts Georgia yeah I mean I'm one of the guys that's down in the weeds making things happen so I'm not the guy on the front line interfacing with the customers every day but we have a similar approach you know we have a consulting practice that will go out and and apply their practices to see what those and when do you parachute in yeah and when I then is I'm on the back end working with our offering development leads for the networking so we understand or seeing what customers are asking for and we're on the back end developing the solutions that integrate with our own offerings as well as enable other customers to just deploy quickly to beep their connectivity needs it so the patterns are similar right final question for you guys I want to ask you to paint a picture of what success looks like and you know the name customers didn't forget in reveal kind of who they are but what does success look like in multi-cloud as you paint a picture for the folks here and watching on the live stream it's someone says hey I want to be multi-cloud I got to have my operations agile I want full DevOps I want programmability security built in from day zero what does success look like yeah I think success looks like this so when you're building out a network the network is a harder thing to change than some other aspects of cloud so what we think is even if you're thinking about that second cloud which we have most of our customers are on to public clouds today they might be dabbling in that as you build that network foundation that architecture that takes in consideration where you're going and so once we start building that reference architecture out that shows this is how to sit from a multi cloud perspective not a single cloud and let's not forget our branches let's not forget our data centers let's not forget how all this connects together because that's how we define multi-cloud it's not just in the cloud it's on Prem and it's off from and so collectively I think the key is also is that we provide them an hld you got to start with a high level design that can be tweaked as you go through the journey but you got to give a solid structural foundation and that that networking which we think most customers think as not not the network engineers but as an afterthought we want to make that the most critical element before you start the journey Jorge from your seed how do you success look for you so you know it starts out on these journeys often start out people not even thinking about what is gonna happen what what their network needs are when they start their migration journey to the cloud so I want this success to me looks like them being able to end up not worrying about what's happening in the network when they move to the cloud good point guys great insight thanks for coming on share and pen I've got a round of applause the global system integrators Hey [Applause] [Music] okay welcome back from the live feed I'm chef for with the cube Steve Eleni CEO of aviatrix my co-host our next panel is the aviatrix certified engineers also known as aces this is the folks that are certified their engineering they're building these new solutions please welcome Toby Foster min from Attica Stacy linear from Teradata and Jennifer Reid with Victor Davis to the stage I was just gonna I was just gonna rip you guys see where's your jackets and Jen's got the jacket on okay good love the aviatrix aces pile of gear they're above the clouds towards a new heights that's right so guys aviatrix aces love the name I think it's great certified this is all about getting things engineered so there's a level of certification I want to get into that but first take us through the day in the life of an ace and just to point out Stacey's a squad leader so he's like a Squadron Leader Roger and leader yeah Squadron Leader so he's got a bunch of aces underneath him but share your perspective day-in-the-life Jennifer will start with you sure so I have actually a whole team that works for me both in the in the North America both in the US and in Mexico and so I'm eagerly working to get them certified as well so I can become a squad leader myself but it's important because one of the the critical gaps that we've found is people having the networking background because they're you graduate from college and you have a lot of computer science background you can program you've got Python but now working in packets they just don't get and so just taking them through all the processes that it's really necessary to understand when you're troubleshooting is really critical mm-hmm and because you're gonna get an issue where you need to figure out where exactly is that happening on the network you know is my my issue just in the VP C's and on the instance side is a security group or is it going on print and this is something actually embedded within Amazon itself I mean I should troubleshot an issue for about six months going back and forth with Amazon and it was the vgw VPN because they were auto-scaling on two sides and we ended up having to pull out the Cisco's and put in aviatrix so I could just say okay it's fixed and I actually actually helped the application teams get to that and get it solved yeah but I'm taking a lot of junior people and getting them through that certification process so they can understand and see the network the way I see the network I mean look I've been doing this for 25 years when I got out when I went in the Marine Corps that's what I did and coming out the network is still the network but people don't get the same training they get they got in the 90s it's just so easy just write some software they work takes care of itself yes he'll be we'll come back to that I want to come back to that problem solve with Amazon but Toby I think the only thing I have to add to that is that it's always the network fault as long as I've been in network have always been the network's fault sure and I'm even to this day you know it's still the network's fault and part of being a network guy is that you need to prove when it is and when it's not your fault and that means you need to know a little bit about a hundred different things to make that and now you've got a full stack DevOps you got to know a lot more times another hundred and these times are changing they see your squadron leader I get that right what is what is a squadron leader first can you describe what it is I think it probably just leading all the network components of it but are they from my perspective when to think about what you asked them was it's about no issues and no escalation soft my day is like that's a good outcome that's a good day it's a good day Jennifer you mentioned the Amazon thing this brings up a good point you know when you have these new waves come in you have a lot of new things newly use cases a lot of the finger-pointing it's that guys problem that girls problem so what is how do you solve that and how do you get the young guns up to speed is there training is that this is where the certification comes in those where the certification is really going to come in I know when we we got together at reinvent one of the the questions that that we had with Stephen the team was what what should our certification look like you know she would just be teaching about what aviatrix troubleshooting brings to bear but what should that be like and I think Toby and I were like no no no that's going a little too high we need to get really low because the the better someone can get at actually understanding what actually happening in the network and and where to actually troubleshoot the problem how to step back each of those processes because without that it's just a big black box and they don't know you know because everything is abstracted in Amazon Internet and Azure and Google is substracted and they have these virtual gateways they have VPNs that you just don't have the logs on it's you just don't know and so then what tools can you put in front of them of where they can look because there are full logs well as long as they turned on the flow logs when they built it you know and there's like each one of those little things that well if they'd had decided to do that when they built it it's there but if you can come in later to really supplement that with training to actual troubleshoot and do a packet capture here as it's going through then teaching them how to read that even yeah Toby we were talking before he came on up on stage about your career you've been networking all your time and then you know you're now mentoring a lot of younger people how is that going because the people who come in fresh they don't have all the old war stories they don't know you talk about you know that's dimmer fault I walk in Mayr feet in the snow when I was your age I mean it's so easy now right they say what's your take on how you train the young P so I've noticed two things one is that they are up to speed a lot faster in generalities of networking they can tell you what a network is in high school level now where I didn't learn that too midway through my career and they're learning it faster but they don't necessarily understand why it's that way or you know everybody thinks that it's always slash 24 for a subnet and they don't understand why you can break it down smaller why it's really necessary so the the ramp up speed is much faster for these guys that are coming in but they don't understand why and they need some of that background knowledge to see where it's coming from and why is it important and that's old guys that's where we thrive Jennifer you mentioned you you got in from the Marines health spa when you got into networking how what was it like then and compare it now most like we've heard earlier static versus dynamic don't be static cuz back then you just said the network you got a perimeter yeah no there was no such thing ya know so back in the day I mean I mean we had banyan vines for email and you know we had token ring and I had to set up token ring networks and figure out why that didn't work because how many of things were actually sharing it but then actually just cutting fiber and running fiber cables and dropping them over you know shelters to plug them in and oh crap they swung it too hard and shattered it now I gotta be great polished this thing and actually shoot like to see if it works I mean that was the network current five cat 5 cables to run an Ethernet you know and then from that just said network switches dumb switches like those were the most common ones you had then actually configuring routers and you know logging into a Cisco router and actually knowing how to configure that and it was funny because I had gone all the way up and was a software product manager for a while so I've gone all the way up the stack and then two and a half three years ago I came across to to work with entity group that became Victor Davis but we went to help one of our customers Avis and it was like okay so we need to fix the network okay I haven't done this in 20 years but all right let's get to it you know because it really fundamentally does not change it's still the network I mean I've had people tell me well you know when we go to containers we will not have to worry about the network and I'm like yeah you don't I do and then with this within the program abilities it really interesting so I think this brings up the certification what are some of the new things that people should be aware of that come in with the aviatrix ace certification what are some of the highlights can you guys share some of the some of the highlights around the certifications I think some of the importance is that it's it doesn't need to be vendor specific for network generality or basic networking knowledge and instead of learning how Cisco does something or how Palo Alto does something we need to understand how and why it works as a basic model and then understand how each vendor has gone about that problem and solved it in a general that's true in multi cloud as well you can't learn how cloud networking works without understanding how AWS integer and GCP are all slightly the same but slightly different and some things work and some things don't I think that's probably the number one take I think having a certification across clouds is really valuable because we heard the global si you help the business issues what does it mean to do that is it code is that networking is it configuration is that aviatrix what is the amine oxy aviatrix is a certification but what is it about the multi cloud that makes it multi networking and multi vendor and easy answer is yes so you got to be a general let's go to your hands and all you have to be it takes experience because it's every every cloud vendor has their own certification whether that's hops and [Music] advanced networking and advanced security or whatever it might be yeah they can take the test but they have no idea how to figure out what's wrong with that system and the same thing with any certification but it's really getting your hands in there and actually having to troubleshoot the problems you know actually work the problem you know and calm down it's going to be okay I mean because I don't know how many calls I've been on or even had aviatrix join me on it's like okay so everyone calm down let's figure out what's happening it's like we've looked at that screen three times looking at it again it's not going to solve that problem right but at the same time you know remaining calm but knowing that it really is I'm getting a packet from here to go over here it's not working so what could be the problem you know and actually stepping them through those scenarios but that's like you only get that by having to do it you know and seeing it and going through it and then I have a question so we you know I just see it we started this program maybe six months ago we're seeing a huge amount of interest I mean we're oversubscribed on all the training sessions we've got people flying from around the country even with coronavirus flying to go to Seattle to go to these events were oversubscribed a good is that watching leader would put there yeah something that you see in your organizations are you recommending that to people do you see I mean I'm just I would guess I'm surprised I'm not surprised but I'm really surprised by the demand if you would of this multi-cloud network certification because it really isn't anything like that is that something you guys can comment on or do you see the same things in your organization's I say from my side because we operate in the multi cloud environment so it really helps an official for us I think I would add that networking guys have always needed to use certifications to prove that they know what they know it's not good enough to say yeah I know IP addresses or I know how a network works and a couple little check marks or a little letters buying helps give you validity so even in our team we can say hey you know we're using these certifications to know that you know enough of the basics enough of the understandings that you have the tools necessary right so okay I guess my final question for you guys is why an eighth certification is relevant and then second part is share what the livestream folks who aren't yet a certified or might want to jump in to be AVH or certified engineers why is it important so why is it relevant and why shouldn't someone want to be an ace-certified I'm used to right engineer I think my views a little different I think certification comes from proving that you have the knowledge not proving that you get a certification to get no I mean they're backwards so when you've got the training and the understanding and the you use that to prove and you can like grow your certification list with it versus studying for a test to get a certification and have no understanding it okay so that who is the right person that look at this is saying I'm qualified is it a network engineer is it a DevOps person what's your view you know is it a certain you know I think cloud is really the answer it's the as we talked like the edge is getting eroded so is the network definition getting eroded we're getting more and more of some network some DevOps some security lots and lots of security because network is so involved in so many of them that's just the next progression I don't say I expend that to more automation engineers because we have those nails probably well I think that the training classes themselves are helpful especially the entry-level ones for people who may be quote-unquote cloud architects but I've never done anything and networking for them to understand why we need those things to really work whether or not they go through to eventually get a certification is something different but I really think fundamentally understanding how these things work it makes them a better architect makes some better application developer but even more so as you deploy more of your applications into the cloud really getting an understanding even from our people who've tradition down on prime networking they can understand how that's going to work in the cloud too well I know we got just under 30 seconds left but I want to get one more question than just one more for the folks watching that are you may be younger that don't have that networking training from your experiences each of you can answer why is it should they know about networking what's the benefit what's in it for them motivate them share some insights and why they should go a little bit deeper in networking Stacey we'll start with you we'll go down let's say it's probably fundamental right if you want to deliver solutions no we're going use the very top I would say if you fundamental of an operating system running on a machine how those machines talk together as a fundamental change is something that starts from the base and work your way up right well I think it's a challenge because you've come from top-down now you're gonna start looking from bottom up and you want those different systems to cross communicate and say you've built something and you're overlapping IP space not that that doesn't happen but how can I actually make that still operate without having to reappear e-platform it's like those challenges like those younger developers or sis engineers can really start to get their hands around and understand those complexities and bring that forward in their career they got to know the how the pipes are working you guys know what's going some plumbing that's right and they gotta know how it works I had a code it it's right awesome thank you guys for great insights ace certain ABS your certified engineers also known as aces give a round of applause thank you okay all right that concludes my portion thank you Steve thanks for have Don thank you very much that was fantastic everybody round of applause for John for you yeah so great event great event I'm not gonna take long we got we've got lunch outside for that for the people here just a couple of things just call to action right so we saw the aces you know for those of you out on the stream here become a certified right it's great for your career it's great for not knowledge is is fantastic it's not just an aviatrix thing it's gonna teach you about cloud networking multi-cloud networking with a little bit of aviatrix exactly what the Cisco CCIE program was for IP network that type of the thing that's number one second thing is is is is learn right so so there's a there's a link up there for the four to join the community again like I started this this is a community this is the kickoff to this community and it's a movement so go to what a v8 community aviatrix comm starting a community a multi cloud so you know get get trained learn I'd say the next thing is we're doing over a hundred seminars in across the United States and also starting into Europe soon will come out and will actually spend a couple hours and talk about architecture and talk about those beginning things for those of you on the you know on the livestream in here as well you know we're coming to a city near you go to one of those events it's a great way to network with other people that are in the industry as well as to start to learn and get on that multi-cloud journey and then I'd say the last thing is you know we haven't talked a lot about what aviatrix does here and that's intentional we want you you know leaving with wanting to know more and schedule get with us in schedule a multi our architecture workshop session so we we sit out with customers and we talk about where they're at in that journey and more importantly where they're going and define that end state architecture from networking compute storage everything and everything you heard today every panel kept talking about architecture talking about operations those are the types of things that we solve we help you define that canonical architecture that system architecture that's yours so for so many of our customers they have three by five plotted lucid charts architecture drawings and it's the customer name slash aviatrix arc network architecture and they put it on their whiteboard that's what what we and that's the most valuable thing they get from us so this becomes their twenty-year network architecture drawing that they don't do anything without talking to us and look at that architecture that's what we do in these multi hour workshop sessions with customers and that's super super powerful so if you're interested definitely call us and let's schedule that with our team so anyway I just want to thank everybody on the livestream thank everybody here hopefully it was it was very useful I think it was and joined the movement and for those of you here join us for lunch and thank you very much [Applause] [Music] you