>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE! Covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. (tech music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We are here, live in San Francisco, for theCUBE's exclusive two-day coverage of Cisco system's new inaugural event called DevNet Create. An extension and an augmentation of DevNet. Their classic Cisco Developer Program. Again, augmenting and creating some intelligence that's AI augmented intelligence. I'm John Furrier. Peter Burris bringing a lot of intelligence here. With Craig McLuckie who's the founder and CEO of Heptio. Cube alumni. Been on many times. Guru in the cloud. Great the see you Craig. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks so much for having me back on. >> Thanks for coming in. More importantly about this event is really the community extension for Cisco. Cisco ingratiating into the community of open source and developers in a big way. But not like brute force. It's a very humble event. Small event in San Francisco. Really you see the connection of app dynamics with the networking. And again, developers want DevOps. They want infrastructure as code. They want the scale of the internet. That's the purpose, your thoughts on this event? >> Yeah, so far I've been very impressed. It feels like a pretty authentic developer orientated event. The sessions so far have been quite accessible. And generally pretty well thought through. I think Cisco is doing a very great job of actually doing exactly what you're saying. Which is creating an event that's relevant to the developer that isn't necessarily tied to Cisco's interest. And establishing themselves in terms of thought leadership and actually creating a narrative that works with the community. >> Yea. One of the thoughts that we're talking about in conversations that we're seeing on the Cube. Especially this year. Is really the two waves that are clearly emerging in the digital transformation is cloud and data. And cloud being, you know, public cloud. Private cloud, hybrid. Essentially large scale resource data creating value. And the application developers really taking advantage of that. And you can't look further than containers and Kubernetes. As a key thread to bridging these two worlds of pretty much unlimited capacity in terms of compute. Obviously pricing. Business models and operational models are different by vendor. But the emergence of multi cloud points to, to me. The future. I personally don't think it's ready for primetime. But certainly I would say directionally correct. But hybrid clouds is a reality. So developers are going to have on prim and off prim. But how do they connect it all? How do you orchestrate it all? This is a core channel and I know your working on a FDO. And it's near and dear to your heart. You thought of the state of the industry with respect that Kubernetes, containers. And how app developers can get that freedom without being a networking guru. Really truly getting infrastructures code without a lot of, well I got to run this with that. I just want seamless cross connection between applications. >> Yeah, I think we're definately... You know a couple of things are true. One is, it's been spectacular to see the amount of progress we've made in this community in the past three years. Going from a situation where we're just seeing the spark of awareness around containers. As a frameworks packaging deploy applications. You know, into an environment to become rarely something that most every organization out there is looking at. To solve both difficult longstanding challenges in the active space. But also to open up this wall of multi cloud. To create opportunities for people to move their compute around. In this increasingly androgynous world. And its been interesting, you know, last year. To see a growing awareness of the importance of multi cloud. I think there's two things that have been really motivating that from my side. You know, one is being and understanding that it really isn't a one horse race anymore. We're really starting to see a surge in effort from both Microsoft and Google. And that's generating a lot of relevance for folks who want to run in this multi cloud world. And the second thing we start to see is a legitimate interest in this edge computing phenomenon. As organizations are aware of the implications of increasing volumes of data showing up in their networks. Showing up on premises. Showing up in these environments. Having the flexibility to move compute into those. Cause as you can see it's huge. And so obviously I'm a little bit bias. I think Kubernetes and containers are an amazing platform. I rarely, you know, tap into both of these growing sort of four points awareness. One is being able to create a natural compute fabric that decouples your applications and services from the cloud provider. That allows you to look at the cloud provider as both an infrastructure offering. But also to judiciously pull through services that are special that you might need. But then also having the flexibility to offer up your own services and then move that around from environment to environment. It's been quite wonderful the watch that start to take shape. >> Craig you've also got some good insight into architecture. You actually know the cloud game. You worked at Google. And Google's got some great stuff. Got Tensorflow coming out. You're seeing kind of that going on. And I would agree with you. It's not a one horse race anymore. Absolutely. However there's a lot of pressure on the businesses. The customer impact to deploy in this digital transformation. Is, pressure cooker's hotter than ever. >> Absolutely. >> I mean Ford just fired its CEO. Stocks down 39%. He's two years into his transformation. How the hell does a CXO transform their business if they've got a gun to their head? What's your advice for the guys out there that don't want to be the next Mark Field's? Who have to essentially run as fast as they can without disrupting operations and also try to perform top line revenue. Which is isn't easy apps. I mean it's a tough spot. Your thoughts? >> No, it is really interesting. You know, I tend to think about IT as this kind of rarely interesting optimization problem. The thing you try to maximize is velocity. You have to be able to use technology to solve core organizational problems. You have to be able to point technology to business. You have to be able to move from this world. Where technology was being delivered in a traditional products fashion. To the world where technology is being delivered as a service. If you look at Tesla. Tesla's no longer a car that is just a standard car. It's actually almost a service. Like the technology that's being deployed into the Tesla evolves day to day. The car's becoming better and richer and more amazing. And so CIO's have to start looking at this as an optimization problem. Where you want to optimize for velocity. You have to maintain an effective posture around risk management. And then, inside that you want to achieve an acceptable SLA. This is the really interesting thing is that a lot of folks are looking for like four nines, five nines, six nines, whatever crazy availability you're looking at. Except that the higher you're pushing your availability. The further back you have to pull on your velocity. And so for me, the most exciting thing. In terms of... I have these conversations with CIO's that are looking to make transform into this new world. It's helping them understand this balance between code velocity and availability, reliability. The underlying systems. Understand the role that some of these modern automated orchestration systems are playing. As a way to drive up your ability to move far. So without necessarily driving down your general service availability. And then, looking at ways to transform the organization itself. From being a technology organization that is throwing tech over the fence. To a much more nimble sort of smaller teams that are delivering up technology as a sort of services. It's an amazing time to be a part of this transformation. >> So we think... You've done a lot of research on this. Let's see if I can find your statements in there and just get a sense of how you think about these things. Is that at the end of the day. A business institutionalizer's work around the assets that are core to its mission. And John and I were talking about this before hand. In the old days, the biggest asset, most important asset. Was the hardware. So you institutionalize the work around the hardware. And then it became your application portfolio. Whether it was SCP or something else. And you institutionalize work around that. Today, our observation. Here's the test. Is that the asset that's most important is your data. And you're going to reinstitutionalize work around the data. And how you use that data and imply that data to a lot of different business activities. What do you think about that? Is data becoming that kind of central asset around which IT and hopefully even the digital business gets reinstitutionalized along the lines of what you're saying? >> Yes, absolutely. I think it's really important to understand that. There's really two components to this. You know, IT is information technology. It is literally just the process of making sense of data and information. >> Right. >> And presenting it in a way that you can make effective business decisions. >> So we're going back to our roots in many respects. >> Right. >> DP, data processing. (laughing) >> But it's also... It's also about experience. >> It's what? >> It's also about creating an experience. >> Right. >> For the customers. So I think at the heart of it this IT transformation is around two things. It's allowing modern businesses to generate a better understanding of the customer. Though the leverage use of data. >> Based on customer created data. >> Based on customer created data and observable information about the customers. And then it's based on experience. It's using that the create in crafts a richer, more satisfying better experience for the underlying customer. And obviously data is central to both of those. But the experiential side of it has a lot more than. You can't look at that purely as a data processing thing. There's a sort of mechanism that you need to do to create those wonderful experiences. And you can start leaning into things like artificial intelligence as a way to drive and prove experiences. You can lean into U Form Factors and sort of new ways to connect customers with their businesses. As a way to try that experience. And you know, the products themselves are becoming increasingly evolved. Like, I've certainly seen recently and talking to auto manufacturers. Is owning awareness that the car itself has to be creating a ongoing and sort of richer and more interesting experience. It has to be more interestingly tied to the customer. >> So software and data are connecting? >> So software and data are coming together. And software's allowing businesses to gain insight. And then you know, the data is allowing the software to create a more relevant experiences. You can't really separate those two things. >> Well software is data. At the end of the day software is data. (laughing) You go back to Yobach Deterian, that's what he said many years ago. But bring us back to Heptio for a second. So if you take a look at Kubernetes. And we agree Kubernetes. You know, in the last three months the Cube's had what, fifty thousand shows or something like that. (laughing) And we got a lot of very, very bright guests on it. >> Feels like it. >> And we've had... And Kubernetes has been a consistent theme. Containers are important. These technologies from managing and orchestrating these containers is going to be especially important. And Kubernetes is right in the mix. But Kubernetes kind of looks like an infrastructure almost a... I don't want to say a nerd. But you know what I mean? It's just not.. Heptio is taking it.. Is how you use that a little bit better. And what should you do with some of these concepts of design? Which is the one thing you didn't mention when you started talking about this stuff. How does design? Experience plus design come into play here? Especially through a tool set like Heptio? >> Oh, it's interesting. You know, at the end of the day I think there's two components to the design. There's designing for the users. You know, honestly I want Kubernetes to be the most boring thing in the world. At the end of the day I want a business to not think about their infrastructure. Like it just needs to fade into the background and become this invisible substrate around which they live. >> Yeah-- >> The water in which they swim. >> I've said for years that the value of infrastructures immensely inversely proportional to the reach to which anybody know anything about it. >> Yes. Absolutely and so. For me, you know, my interest in Kubernetes. I don't want to necessarily show up and fade into the full brain of the developers who are using the technology. I want to fend in the background. I want them to be focused on the design activities that are helping them do their work and sort of succeed and create great outcomes. And so if I had one complaint about Kubernetes right now. It's too interesting. >> Too interesting? >> It's too interesting. We need to make it... >> Boring. >> Boring. (laughing) >> We need to like... >> Ubiquitous. Well no, I think a lot of people are working on it. Cause I think they've identified it as an opportunity to connect things and make it easier. So there's work being done. People are funding companies. >> Absolutely. >> So exciting is a relative term. >> So no, there's a lot of work to be done. >> What's the biggest challenges technically Kubernetes has? If it's going to be boring, what has to happen to make it boring? >> So it's interesting. You know, I think there's a number of things that need to be done. You know, one of which is that. When we were building Kubernetes we created this configuration sintex. Which is sort of Yaumul. It's effectively a simple seralisation of the underlying Kubernetes API's. And for new users of the system. The first thing they encounters is what we call the wall of Yaumul. Where all the Yaumul's ahead. Like it's a very daunting experience. And so we're thinking hard about ways to change that. So you create a much ore elegant experience. Have much better tooling. Have the experience of editing that sort of fade into the background of the developers functions. And then, to your earlier point about design. You know, making it really easy to use some additional concepts that other people have put forward. Creating higher degrees of usability and discoverabililty for other pieces. Through projects like what Microsoft's been doing with the Helm project is really important as well. So you can expect to see us make a significant down payment on trying to... You know Heptio make a significant down payment on trying to address the problem. >> Well, I'm certainly going to be following you. We got a lot of the Lennox Foundation. The CNCF's got out there. Final question for you is. Thoughts on multi cloud? What's your definition of multi cloud? What does it mean? We kind of commented earlier because certainly there's not a winner take all cloud game. There's going to be multiple cloud players. There might be even specialty clouds. As things get boring in that abstractional layer gets simplified with developer friendly interfaces. Clouds will emerge as resource pools. But what I multi cloud mean for you? What's the customer... How should they look at what multi cloud is and what is the path to multi cloud? >> Right. So you know, multi cloud. It's starts with nutragenetity. It starts with the ability to run your workloads in a variety of environments. So nutragenetity, first of all, surrounds the physical infrastructure provider. Not being tied into a single provider model. No one necessarily wants to move back to the wall of IBM circuit 1985. Where you're locked into a single provider and hopefully nobody gets fired for buying that provider. But the problem with it is it rarely softens the amount of intervention in a sea around that. You have these single points of intervention. The second thing that I think about is nutragenetity in terms of locality. The ability to create something that runs both at the network edge. It will perform for the computing sort of realm as Cisco has coined the term. In a data center location that is a potential customer. Sort of in one of their localities. Or in a public cloud. It's going to be about multi-regional support. Being able to pull an application that you can run in the US geography and then in other regions that have regulated requirements around data mobility. So we have to handle all of those things. And inside that, I think there's kind of three key attributes of evolving sophistication that people need to think about. The first is the cloud is just solving an infrastructure outsourcing problem. And that's the most sort of simplistic way of looking at it. Second thing about cloud is. It's a way to consume a broad array of interesting technologies as a service. Right. So, it could be a simple BM but it could also be a database or something else. It's moving the wall from this situation where that thing that you can see as a service is being provisioned by a ticket. Where there's an operator at the end of it. To a world where it's being provisioned by an API. And the final piece of it is being able to move your own infrastructure to that services realm. Your own technologies. The things that are running your business. And deliver them as a service into your own wall. And so for me, multi cloud means hitting that level of nutragenetity and then being able to provision arbitrary services at the end of the API. And then deliver your own sort of services in the same fabric. >> Craig McLuckie, founder and CEO of Heptio. Former Google Cloud leader. Certainly subject matter expert. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you again. >> Thank you for your time. >> I appreciate it. >> Appreciate it. Cube alumni. Always laying down the epic knowledge here inside the Cube. Bringing you the inaugural coverage of Cisco's DevNetCreate. Developer conference as they go out into the open source community. With the full force of Cisco. Of course the Cube's here. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (tech music) >> Hi I'm April Mitchell and I'm the Senior Director of Strategy & Planning for Cisco DevNet.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE, covering Google Cloud Next '17. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Google Next 2017, 10,000 people are in San Francisco, SiliconANGLE media, we've got reporters there, as well as the Wikibon analysts. I've been up there for the analyst's event, some of the keynotes, and we're getting thought leaders, partners, really getting lots of viewpoints as to what's happening, not just in the Google Cloud, but really the multi-Cloud world. And that's why I'm really excited to bring back a guest that we've had on the program before, Craig Mcluckie, who, four months ago, was with Google, but he's now the CEO of Heptio, and he's also one of the co-creators of Kubernetes, which anybody that's watching the event, definitely has been hearing, plenty about Kubernete so, welcome back to the program. >> Thanks for having me back. >> Yeah, absolutely, I know you were part of, a little event that kind of went before the Google Cloud event, brought in some people in the Cloud ecosystem, talk about a lot was going on. Maybe start us off with, what led you to kind of pop out of Google, what is Heptio, and how does that kind of extend what you're doing with Kubernetes when you're at Google? >> Certainly. So Heptio is a company that has been created, by my co-founder Joe and myself, to bring Kubernetes-- >> Stu: That's Joe Beda. >> Joe Beda. >> Stu: Yeah. To bring Kubernetes to enterprises, and the thing that really motivated me to start this company was the sense that there was not a unfettered Kubernetes company in existence. I spoke to a lot of organizations, that were having tremendous success with Kubernetes. It was transforming the way they approached infrastructure management. It created new levels of portability for their workloads. But they wanted to use Kubernetes on their own terms, in ways that made sense to them. And, most every other organization that is creating a Kubernetes distro, has attached it to other technologies. It's either attached to an opinionated operating system, or it's attached to a specific cloud environment, or it's attached to a Paas, and it just didn't meet the way that most of the customers I saw wanted to use the technology. I felt that a key missing part of this ecosystem, was a company that would meet the open source community where it is and help customers that just needed a little bit more help. A little more help with training, bit of documentation support, and the tools they needed to make themselves successful in the environments that they wanted to operate in. And that's what motivated Joe and I to start this company. >> Yeah, and it's interesting, cause you look at the biggest contributors, Google's there, you've got Red Hat, you've got, as you said, people that have their viewpoint as to where that fits. I think that that helps the development overall, but maybe you can help us unpack there. Why do you want, is it separate? Is there that opinionated-ness? What's inherently sub-optimal about that? (laughing) >> I think part of the key value in Kubernetes is the fact that it supports a common framework in a highly heterogonous world. Meaning you can mix together a broad variety of things, to your needs. So you could mix together, the right operating system, in the right hosting environment, with the right networking stack. And you could run general applications that are then managed and performed in a very efficient and easy to use way. And, one of the things that I think is really important, is this idea that customers should have choice, they should be picking the infrastructure based on the merits of the infrastructure. They should pick the OS that works for them, and they should be able to put together a system that operates tremendously well. And, I think it's particularly critical, at this juncture, that a layer emerges that allows customers, and service providers, to mix together the sort of things that they want to use, and consume, in a way that's agnostic to the infrastructure and the operating environment. I see the mainstream cloud providers, taking us in some ways back to the world of the mainframe. If you think about what we're starting to see, with companies like Amazon, who are spectacularly successful in the market, is this world where you have this deeply vertically integrated service provider, that provides not only the compute, but also the set of core services, and almost everything else that you need to run. And, at the end of the day, it's getting to a point where, a customer has to kind of pick their service provider. And, you know, for using IBM, but it was also sub-optimal from an ecosystem perspective. It inhibited innovation in many ways. And it was the emergence of Wintel, that sort of Windows and Intel ecosystem that really opened up the vendor ecosystem, and drove a tremendous amount of innovation and advancement. And, you know, when I think about what enterprise customers want and need today, they want that abstraction. They want a safe way to separate out the set of services that run their business, the set of technologies that they build and maintain, from the underlying infrastructure. And I think that's what driving a lot of the popularity of Kubernetes, is this idea that it is a logical infrastructure abstraction, that lets you pick the environment that you operate in, purely based on the merits of the environment. >> Yeah, it's been a struggle, I mean, I know through my entire career in IT, we've had that discussion of "do I just standardize on what we have? Cause, the enterprise today, absolutely. Every time I put a new technology in, it doesn't displace, it adds to it. So, I talked to lots of customers, still using mainframe. They're using the Wintel stuff, they using public cloud, they're using, you know, yes and and and, and therefore, managing it, orchestrating it, doing all those pieces that are difficult. The challenge when I put an abstraction layer in, and one of the big challenges is, how to really get the full value out of the pieces that I had. Sam Ramji said that, when he was at Cloud Foundry, they were trying to make it so that you really don't care which cloud, whether it's on premises or public cloud environments. And he said one of the reasons he joined Google was because he felt you couldn't make, if you went least common denominator or something, there was things Google was doing that nobody else can do. So there's always that balance of, "can I put an abstraction layer or virtualize something, and take advantage of it?" Or "do I just go all in with one vendor?" I mean, IBM back in the day, did lots of great things to make it simple, and cloud is trying to make it simple, lots of things, Amazon of course, no doubt that they're trying to vertically integrate everything they would like to do. You know, all your services. So, where do you see that balance? And, it's interesting, does it solve customers the best to be able to say "okay, you can take your mess that you have", and therefore, is this a silver bullet to help them solve it? >> I think it's a really good point. And, consistently, as I look through history, a lot of the platforms that people have pursued, that created this sort of complete decoupling, introduced this lowest common denominator problem, where you had to trade off a set of things that you really wanted with the capabilities of the platform. And, you know, I think that absolutely, in some cases, it makes a tremendous amount of sense, to invest in a vendor specific technology. So let's take an example out of Google, Cloud Spanner. Cloud Spanner has, it's literally the only, globally consistent, well right now it's regionally consistent, but it's literally the only globally consistent relational store available. There is nothing like it. The CockroachDB folks are building something that emulates some of the behavior, but without the true time API, that sort of atomic clock, you know, crazy infrastructure that Google's built. It adds very little utility. And so, in certain applications and certain workloads, if what you really want is a globally replicated, highly consistent relational data store, there is literally only one provider on the planet that would deliver it, which is Google. However, you might look at, you know, something that Amazon provides, and they may have some other service. Perhaps you've already built something on RedShift, and you want to be able to use that. Or Microsoft might offer up some other technologies that make sense to you. And, I think it's really important for enterprises to have the option. There's times when, for a given workload, it makes tremendous amount of sense, to put on a vendor, if you're looking to run something that has, deep machine learning hooks, or needs some other science fiction technology that Google's bringing to the world. It makes sense to run that on Google. For applications that are potentially integrated into a productivity suite, if you're an Office 365 user, it probably makes sense to host it on Microsoft. And then, perhaps there's some other pieces that you run on Amazon. And I don't think it's going to be pick one cloud provider and live in the static world forever. I think the landscape is constantly evolving and shifting. And, one of the things technologies like Kubernetes provide is an option. An option to move, an option to decide which specific services you want to pull through and use in which application. Recognizing that those are going to bind you to that cloud provider in perpetuity, but not necessarily pulling the entirety of your IT structure through. >> Yeah, Craig, I'm curious. When I look out as to kind of the people that commentate on this space, one of the things they say "Kubernetes is interesting, but this whole hybrid cloud thing, kill all the on premises stuff, public cloud's really where it's at." I know when I talk to most companies, they got plenty of on premises stuff, most infrastructure that is bought is still, there's a lot of it going on premises. So companies are sorting out what applications go where, what data goes where. Diane Green, suddenly 5% of the world's data really is in the public cloud today. What's your view on kind of that on premises, public cloud piece, and Kubernetes' role there? >> Yeah, I think it's a great question. And I have had some really interesting conversations with CIOS in the past. I remember in my very earliest days, pooh-poohing the idea of the private cloud, and having a really intense CIO look across the thing and he was like "you will pry my data centers from my cold, dead hands". (Stu laughing) He literally said that to me. And so, there's certainly a lot of passion in this space, and I think, at the end of the day, one has to be pragmatic. You know, first of all, one has to recognize that, if you're an organization that has bought significant data center footprint, you're probably going to want to continue to use that asset that you've acquired, and that's, you're going to want to use that in perpetuity. If you're a company, and most large companies are also naturally heterogonous, meaning as you go through an acquisition, the acquired portion of your company may have a profoundly different IT portfolio. You know, may have a different set of environments. And so, I think the world certainly benefits from an abstraction layer that allows you to train your engineers with a certain set of skills, and then be highly decoupled from the infrastructure environment you run in. And I think, again, Kubernetes is delivering some of that promise in a way that I think really resonates with customers. >> Absolutely, and even, we've been telling people for years "stop building data centers"? You know, there's very few companies that want to build data centers even, yes Google talks about their data centers, but Amazon? Gets their data center space from lots of other players there. But, if I stop building data centers today, I'm going to have em for another 25 30 years, and even it, what am I going to owe myself? I talked to plenty of the big financial guys, they're not going to move all of their information. They want to have it under their control, whether it's their own data center, a hosted managed environment there. So, we're going to be living with this multi-cloud thing for a long time. >> There is another thing that I don't think people have fully internalized yet, which is in many ways, the way that cloud provider data centers are structured is around power sources. At the end of the day, it's around cheap power and cooling. As you start looking at the dynamics of what's happening to our energy grid, it's no longer being quite as centralized as it was. And, it starts to beg the question "does it make sense to think about smaller units that are more distributed? Does it make sense to start really thinking about Edge compute capacity?" The option to deploy something really close to your customers if you need low latency and attainment scenarios. Or, the option to push a lot of capacity into your distribution center, if you're running high, heavy IoT workloads, where you just don't want to put all that data on the network. And so I think that, again, certainly, I think that people underestimate the power of the Amazon, Microsoft and Google. People that are still building data centers today, don't realize quite how remarkable the vendors at that scale are, in terms of their ability to build and run these things. But I do think that there are some interesting options, in terms of regional locality, data sovereignty, Edge latency, that legitimize, other types of deployment. >> Yeah, and you talked about IoT, Edge computing absolutely is something that comes up a lot there. At AWS Re:Invent last year, Amazon put their serverless solution using Greengrass, out at the Edge because there's tons of centers that I might not have the networking, or I can't have the latency I need to do the compute there. How does things like serverless at the Edge, and IoT play into the discussion of Kubernetes? >> I think it plays really well, insofar as, Kubernetes, it's not intrinsically magic. What it has done is created a relatively simple, and turns out, pretty reusable abstraction that lets you run a broad array of workloads. I wouldn't say it's exactly cracked the serverless paradigm in terms of event-driven, low cost of activation computing, but that's something that can certainly be built on top of it. The thing that it does do, is it provides you the ability to manage an application as if it were software as a service, in a location that is remote from you, by providing you a very principled, automated framework for operations. >> Alright, Craig, last thing I want you to do is give us an update on Heptio. How many people do you have? How are you engaging with customers? What's the business model look like for that? What can you share? >> So, we're currently 13 people. We've been in business for four months, and we've been able to hire some really amazing folks, out of the distributed systems communities. We are at a point where we're starting to provide our first supported configurations of Kubernetes. We don't position ourselves as a distribution provider, we rather like to think of ourselves as an organization that's invested in helping users get the most of the Upstream community. Right now, our focus is on training, support, and services, and over time, if we do that really well, we do aspire to provide a more robust set of product capabilities that help organizations succeed. For now, the thing that we focus most relentlessly on is helping customers manage down the cost of supporting a cluster. How do we create a better way for folks to understand what a configuration should look like? When are they likely to encounter issues? And if they do encounter those issues, helping them resolve them in the lowest friction and least painful way possible. >> Alright, and any relationships with the public cloud guys? Or what do you work with when you talk about OpenStack, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, what's the relationship and how do those work? >> So we announced the first joint quick start for Kubernetes with the Amazon folks last Tuesday. And that's been going pretty well. We're getting a lot of positive feedback around that. And we're now starting to think more broadly in terms of providing supported configurations on premises and then on Microsoft. So Amazon, for us, was the obvious starting point. It felt like an under-supported community from a Kubernetes perspective, insofar as, Microsoft had our friend Brenda Burns, who helped us build communities in the first place. And he's been doing some great work to bring Kubernetes to the Azure container service. What we really wanted to do was to make sure that Kubernetes runs well on Amazon, and that it is naturally integrated into the Amazon operating model, so cloud formation templates, and we have a really principled way to manage, maintain, upgrade and support those clusters. >> Alright, Craig Mcluckie, co-creator of Kubernetes, and CEO of Heptio. Really appreciate you coming here to our Palo Alto studio, helping us as we get towards the end of two days of live coverage of Google Cloud Next 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Computer Museum, in the heart of Silicon Valley, extracting the signal from the noise. It's theCUBE. Covering OpenStack Silicon Valley 2015. Brought to you by Mirantis. Now, your hosts John Furrier and Jeff Frick. (upbeat music) >> Okay welcome back everyone. We are here live, broadcasting. This is SiliconANGLE Media, theCUBE, our flagship program. We go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Jeff Frick this week. Two days of wall-to-wall coverage live in Silicon Valley for OpenStack Silicon Valley or #OpenStackSV or the hashtag for this event today, #OSSV15. Join the conversation. Join our crowd chat, crowdchat.net/OSSV15. Our next guest is Craig McLuckie, who's with Google. He's on the Google Cloud team, CUBE Alum. Welcome back to theCUBE. Got a keynote there, welcome back. >> Thank you so much, great to be with you again. >> So Silicon Valley house leads center of the innovation engine house a lot of investment capital here, a lot of big players, you guys, Facebook, VMware, Intel, you name it. It's the giants of the technology industry. And the bubble conversation's happening. China's going down in terms of economics, and seeing the stock market crash there. But yet, underlying infrastructure change is happening. Cloud certainly is floating, that wealth-creation engine, you guy are a big part of it here in Silicon Valley. Just talk about the state of the Cloud. OpenStack has momentum, you have some stability in the core compute side with OpenStack, virtualization is not going away. New things like Kubernetes, Containers, fast on the scene, rising very fast. What's your take on this innovation engine in the Cloud? >> So I think there's a couple of things that are really exciting and interesting that are happening right now, as we speak. The first is a transition to open. It's a way of rethinking about how you evaluate, acquire, and integrate your software. And I think that OpenStack has established a legitimacy as a technology that's really bringing the value proposition of traditional infrastructure service to everyone everywhere. And we're really starting to see a convergence to that community, a set of technologies that are consistent, of high simatic consistency, is really becoming a thing, which is phenomenal. At the same time we're also seeing another disruption happening. And it was really a disruption that was triggered by the emergence of Docker as a technology to support a new way of thinking about packaging and deployment. And it's really part of a bigger story around a move towards Cloud -Ntive computing. This is a computing set of patterns that was really inspired by the internet giants by the Google's, the Facebook's, the Twitter's. But it's really been cracked open and been accessible by folks like Docker who have opened up those container technologies and now we're seeing a lot of the players start to really focus on this and look at bringing the value proposition of that new style of computing to enterprises everywhere. >> You know you start to see maturity in a market specially when platforms are involved, platform wars, whatever the bloggers want to put the headline out there, when you see abstraction layers develop. And one of the things that you talked about in your keynote I'd like you can elaborate on is ending the distinction between what's under the hood. Containers you mentioned bring out this notion that, "I'm a developer I want interoperability." >> Right. >> "I want cross platform API's." This is the economy so I want you to explain that. What is this disruption with containers and Kubernetes? Do, for this abstraction, do we care about the features any more? And that's one of the signals of maturity. Is that you're not talking speeds and feeds and infrastructure to service, platform as a service. When those conversations go away you know things are moving. >> Right. >> Or is that true, what's your take on all that? >> I think that's a very good observation. I think that one of the things we as a community have looked for for a while is a separation between the world of tools and infrastructure that people interact with on a day to day basis to build applications and in the systems that actually take those built applications and run them for you. And a big part of our focus has been to make the set of subsystems that are actually responsible for the operations of applications, transparent to the end developer. And we're looking to formalize that interface that exists between how you create an application, how you package up it's dependencies and how you offer up the infrastructure and then how you run it. One of the most exciting and energizing things for me is to see the emergence of a standard set of abstraction that interface between these two worlds so it creates massive opportunities for innovation. By standardizing that interface you have incredible innovation in the tooling area with technologies like Docker or continuous integration of delivery frame works. You know new development environments that are producing an artifact that can be universally consumed everywhere else. And then on the infrastructure side you have a lot of innovation around running that artifact for the developer, the end enterprise efficiently and intelligently whether it's being deployed into a virtual machine on OpenStack with being deployed into a main-source cluster running on the metal or whether it's been deployed into a next generation Kubernetes cluster running in one of those environments or somewhere else. We're looking to create this common abstraction and it's going to drive a lot of innovation at every level of the stack. >> You know at Wikibon research one of the things that they're putting out, some cutting edge research around the innovation around some of the technologies under the hood. Conversion infrastructure, cloud technologies, flash, storage, software defined networking all that stuff under the hood is evolving as fast as well. So you have underlying core technology and tooling exploding. >> Right. >> So some really good stuff coming out Wikibon.com. And with that and your comment I want to ask, kind of a pointed question which is: Does hybrid cloud really exist? Is it a concept or is it a category? Do people buy hybrid-cloud? Do they buy into it? It seems to be that's the conversation people are talking about now. But I just don't see hybrid-cloud existing other than being part of private and public. >> Right. >> And talk about that. >> It's a great question. I love that question. It exists but not the way that people think of it existing. Right so you can think about it this way when you are building an application on your laptop and deploying it into a cloud it's kind of hybrid-cloud right? But it's not the way that people think about hybrid-cloud. When you want to run a continuous integration server for your company and have it hosted in the cloud and have it create artifacts that are deployed into you on-prem production clusters. That's hybrid-cloud but it's not the way people have come to think about it. And so what I think about it is really about the ecosystem. About establishing a common set of tools and capabilities so that first and foremost people can choose the destination for an application based solely on the technical merits of the infrastructure that they're ruing on. Google offers some very high quality, robust, fast, affordable cloud infrastructure. But we recognize and embrace the fact that for some customers you have very legitimate regional requirements. For some of the applications you might really want to run them on premises. And so the first step toward achieving legitimacy for hybrid-cloud is establishing a common set of patterns and tools and capabilities that exist in both places. The next step is going to be around creating a common services abstraction that let's you start to access things from other environments. And then over time you might actually see people deploy these sort of cloud bursting scenarios et cetera. But the path to get there is really through infrastructure. You know like a common set of abstractions, a common set of tools, a common set of pattern, and making those available to people everywhere. And then over time we will start building these fused together, legitimately hybrid solutions. >> So hybrid-cloud then is a paradigm, it's a concept that highlights the common tooling interoperability so developers can actually work in these environments without having to do anything. That's where Docker comes in, that's where Kubernetes come in? >> Exactly. And it's really, hybrid needs to be first and foremost about being able to use a common set of technologies to build an application for A or B. >> So let's take it forward. So let's put the brainstorming hat on. Let's talk about the future and let's kind of play with some scenario's. Internet of things opens up a huge can of worms and challenges, engineering challenges around: How do I manage the data? How do I drive workloads to these devices? Whether their wearables or cars or stacks or devices? Anything that's on the edge of the network is now considered a device. PC, mobile, internet of things. So for a developer to work in that kind of environment they need these toolings. Is that how you see it? >> Absolutely, I think that's a great way to think about it. You know it's an interesting thing you raise. Because if you think about it Cloud-Native has really been the domain of internet companies, right? It's really been something that Google's done because it's the only way to practically achieve a certain level of scale. We've seen co-evolution of this, of these patterns inside Twitter, eBay, Facebook, Netflix. Everyone's been doing it on their own terms. Now the reality is when IoT happens every enterprise has to kind of become a internet company right? And what we've seen consistently across, you know all of the internet companies that exist today is there's one pattern that really works well to actually deploy computational infrastructure, at scale efficiently. And that's this pattern around container package, dynamically schedule, microservices oriented computing. And so our mission is really to bring these technologies in a democratized way to enterprises so that they can actually tackle problems that were previously only really solved by the internet giants. Without having to make Google level investments or Facebook level investments in technology. >> Yeah. When we hear that Internet companies, just clarify like a hyperscaler like with Yahoo and Google did. Building large scale systems in a seamless way that's kind of abstract to the user. >> Right. >> Just pure performance all, everything is running and it's kind of a brilliant concept. That brings up the point of Google envy. I mean you hear this all the time in the enterprise. "I want to be more like Google." "I want to be more like Facebook." And what they really are saying is: "I want to have Ops." Right so. >> Right. >> DevOps, Cloud-Native do you hear hat often? And when you hear that: "I want to be more like Google." What does that really mean from your stand point? How do you guys internalize that? >> Right. >> How do you talk back to customers? >> So I think you know when I say I want to be more like Google I think there's a lot of different sort of angles that you might have there. I've heard people coin this phrase GIFEE to describe what we're trying to do: Google Infrastructure for Everyone else. But I think the heart of it is really this: If you're a Google engineer, it's like you have a superpower, right. You have access to this amazing almost unlimited mass of infrastructure that's just at your disposal immediately. At very little cost or overhead. And you don't have to worry about the mechanics of actually where the thing I built is run, right. Operations is just a function of the platform. The developer gets to focus on their application and their application operations and what they get for free is this cluster environment where cluster operations is handled for you. The process of actually mapping an atom of code into a distributors systems environment. The ability to use some very powerful services that make it trivial to build distributable systems. The fact that I'm not paged all the time because what I deploy is understandable by some very smart subsystems, they can watch it, they know what it's supposed to be doing. They can tell when it's not doing that and they know how to fix it, right. And so traditionally when you go out of operating parameters in a traditional system you get paged. And for me a lot of what this operate like Google really means is one is I want to be able to Access Compute at an unprecedented level easily and two is I don't want to get paged by my applications that are doing that. >> Yes so let's bring that up, the API economy. Let's bring this to the next level. Today applications are either Legacy or their Cloud-Native so and I ask everyone the question, even on our own Wikibon team we have a debate. And I ask Dave Alante: "Dave name the Cloud-Native Apps that are out there?" I don't think there are any Cloud-Native apps out there. I mean who has a Cloud-Native App? Now that's a trick question because he goes: "Amazons an App, Google has Cloud-Native." Well they're already hyperscaled. >> Right. >> So the question is what, where are the Cloud-Native apps? Where are the examples? Now Facebook's a Cloud-Native App because they built it from the ground up to be Cloud-Native. >> Sure. >> Google same way. So as an enterprise, what is the Cloud-Native App to the enterprise and how do they get there? And what Legacy do they have to throw away because its synchronous and API interactions is fundamental. >> Right. >> How do you ease that out? >> This is actually a fascinating topic and I think one of the most dangerous things people assume is that to accomplish Cloud-Native you have to go fully along the API-Fication path, right. Now the reality is that of you look at they way that people access data today the fast majority of business data's stored in relational database's. People have great tools to access data in relational databases. They want to be able to move that forward. And to me if you force API-Fication, if you force a protocol specific approach to actual integration, if you force people to use a specific authentication scheme you're going to alienate a very broad array of your customers and you're going to create this cognitive hurdle that's very hard for people to get over. So when I think about Cloud-Native, I think about it as providing a different paradigm for deployment management, activation et cetera. But it has to make allowances for integration with your existing systems. And so I think at the forefront of this is the notion of a service or a microservice. And a microservice has to be a minimal atom of software consumption, the easiest way to find and consume something and you can't force an opinion around how people project that, right. So if you build something that runs in a cluster you should be able to access an Oracle database as if it were a microservice running inside your cluster. You should be able to access a sales force SAS endpoint as if it were a microservice running inside your cluster. And so as I think about my mission and Google's mission around the move towards Cloud-Native computing, you can't create this experiential cliffs, you can't create these artificial boundaries to your system. You have to make natural allowances where, look there's some stuff that just works better in a vertically scalable VM. If you want to run a big database with a Dune Kernel and a few other things, by all means put it in a VM. And we are absolutely committed to the idea of creating a natural set of experiences when you want to go from that to some portion of the application that's doing stateless, front and serving. Or a portion of the application that's running in a cloud-friendly, distributed scaled out database. You shouldn't have to take the pull and be stuck in this world. You should be able to mix these. >> So you're saying it's dangerous to force API-Fication, if that's a term I can't even spell it, It's too may I's at the end there, I like that hyphen in there. But if you force API-Fication or movement, you can foreclose future performance and functionality by alienating existing apps. >> By alienating the existing system. It is a very dangerous, there's a lot of. It's very attractive to drive API-Fication but it has to be, you have to create this pressure grading that attracts people up it by adding value at every stage of the game. And you can't build your management systems around a predicated, sort of, opinionated API framework. We saw this with, in the world of SOA, I mean I don't know if you remember the SOAP and SOA stuff. >> Yeah, yeah. >> You know way back when. >> That was just another way of describing API-Fication and we've saw where it went. The problem was that. >> It wasn't ready, the market wasn't ready for web services at that time. >> And it was, but it was beyond that, it was like, no one's willing to make a massive infrastructure investment to get you to ground zero, where you can actually start building. >> So let's look at that web services back in 2000, 2001 when you saw SOAP, XML, SAM all those things emerging. At that time who did take advantage of that? It was the hyperscalers. It was internet companies cause they needed it, right. So the mainstream market now is adopting that kind of concept around microservices. Explain that. >> But it wasn't, the interesting thing is when you look at what the adoption was around microservices, it wasn't around interoperable SOAP, it was around discrete, highly optimized RPC protocols. It was around relatively closed systems at that time. And it worked well, right? The challenge. >> It was controlled. >> It was controlled and it worked well inside a closed ecosystem. Now what, the thing that really held people back is that to get there you had to do a big ESP deployment. You had to then go and SOA-fy a bunch of your components and it required a huge investment in terms of sort of infrastructure and capabilities to get, before you started realizing value. And it was inaccessible to most people and it alienated technologies that didn't fit well into that model. Right like how do you take your database and put it into that model? It was purely optimized around a certain portion of it. And so now we're in a world where we make it available to everyone. We reduce barriers to entry and you get immediate value without having to make huge investments. So let's take microservices and let's unpack that for the audience out there. You're seeing DockerCon, ContainerCon, KubeCon, MasosCon. All these conferences are around developers. And this is all about scale right? >> Right. >> Operating a scale, abstraction layers. I think it's, we need to be careful not to pigeonhole this as about operating at scale. It is the only practical way to operate at internet scale but the value proposition is just as applicable if you're running something in five virtual machines, at a more humble scale. >> So let's talk about development versus operation team. >> Right. >> Where does the Kubernetes, where does the microservices model fit in? And how do companies avoid the trap of alienating existing apps? How do they get the system up and running? What is the roadmap? And differentiate from a Dev standpoint and an Ops standpoint. >> I think one of the most important things you're going to start seeing is a specialization of the operations function. Today it's all kind of glum together and if you ask a developer to actually run an application they have to be cognizant of which virtual machine it's in. You force them into the ugly world of infrastructure Ops. And sort of common services Ops. And what we're going to start seeing, and what I hope to help companies achieve, is a specialization of the operations function. So Infrastructure Ops should be relegated to a set of people that actually understand the physical infrastructure. They will create an optimal physical environment surround your application. There'll be a small number of specialized people that know how to do that and they will rack and stack and wire and configure and do what ever needs to be done to tune the infrastructure. Above that you're going to see this Cluster Operations. So a common Services Operation team that provide a basic operational platform and common services to everyone. So these are a highly specialized set of people that provide you the tools you need to be able to autonomously run a distribute system. They are unlikely to be involved in the day to day operations because most of these systems will be autonomous but they're there to answer the call if something happens in, in that system. So it becomes a very specialized function. And Google does this with our SRE folks that actually manage our, like the Boar clusters that run all our infrastructure. Small number of highly specialized people providing a very valuable service to a lot of folks. And then at the top level you're going to have Application Operations. And that really just becomes the developers function. And it should really be about understanding and managing your code and you should never have to think about: Where it's running? How it's running? You never, should never have to SSH into an instance to try and debug it. All that should be presented to you through your tools. So the developer's experience becomes one of of using logical infrastructure. And so I think what we're going to start seeing is companies making investments in these clustering technologies. Offering up these simple, clustered service environments for their departments. And then having portfolio's of container package applications that can be easily taken, adjusted and run in these environments. And we'll naturally see the specialization of operations emerge. >> So we're running out of time. Jeff didn't get one question in but maybe next time. >> He has a role in that. >> Brendan Burns, Brendan Burns I think on your team. >> Yeah. >> Brendan, so he brought up something. He brought up the hybrid-cloud is kind of the way, meaning the way you described it, not as a category. But he also brought up the different aspects of Google Cloud in our last crowd chat last month. How do customers mix and mach with the cloud? I mean you guys offer Linux, you guys offer Windows. I mean if I want to work with Google Cloud what are the touch points? How do people ingratiate in? How do they engage with Google? What are some of the use cases? Can you share just put the plug in for Google Cloud what you guys have up and running that's mature, stable, >> Right >> Shipping. And how do customers get into the Google Cloud? >> So we've really seen Google Cloud, it needs to be in all of the above sort of capabilities. The operating characteristics. The thing that make Google Cloud unique is the quality of the basic infrastructure. We offer by far the most price performing basic infrastructure out there. It's an innovative clouds, you know it's driving and active in a lot of the sort of disruptions we're seeing around the container space. It's an open cloud. It's a cloud that's invested in making sure that we engage and connect with the OpenSource community. So if you want to work with Google Cloud there's a lot of different ways to do it. One is you can go and just buy beautiful, clean, pristine, powerful, affordable infrastructure in large chucks through Google compute engine. And we're seeing a tremendous amount of adoption. You don't have to make massive capex down payments to get our best price. We really focus on doing that. You can also come in if you just want to write a bit of code, have it run, we have a wonderful Pass product called Google App engine that's becoming very naturally integrated into the container ecosystem and is a natural sort of path. It's a great entry point for people that just want to operate on a higher level and want to take some code and then have it easily deployed and run on your behalf. And then we're also, another entry pointy that isn't obvious to people is, you can help us build the Google Cloud. What we're building with our next generation set of offerings with technologies like Google Container Engine, is an opensource cloud. It's been built in public. Come join our community, work with us. Try it out. Give us feedback and be part of actually building the next generation of clouds. >> Okay so the question I have for you is, let's just say I'm an Amazon customer and I want to go to Google Cloud, do you have like an elastic Beanstalk application containers an App Engine, how do I get I there? I mean there are some things that Amazon has you might have some things. How do you talk to that, Beanstalk particulars. >> That's a great question. So Beanstalk you know provides the ability to you know deploy and run applications. The closest analogy is App Engine. So Beanstalk traditionally was a Java base platform that you could provide your Java code and it would run it for you. App Engine gives you that equivalent capability. And with the new generation of App Engine we actually provide the ability to deploy into directly into VM. So that it feels a lot, it feels a lot like the Beanstalk experience. But it comes with a lot of other high value services. And so that's a natural starting point. And App Engine it self is being rebased on a lot of the Kubernetes concepts. So that you have this immediate, easy, accessible experience for code but when you reach an edge and you want to actually integrate it naturally with a vertically scaled database that runs in a VM, we have compute engine waiting for you and all very natural, it will feel natural to actually just integrate those two things together and snap together these more holistic solutions. >> You guys have a, final question. I now you guys have a lot of track record with developers certainly Google's history and OpenSource, everything is great. But other competitors, more commercial IBM and Amazon, they're providing marketplaces for distribution, where people can make some cash and some cabbage. >> Right. >> What's the plans Google? Is there anything there? How do I make money if I'm a developer with Google? Or is there plans there, what's the state of that? >> It's a great question and obviously we have aspirations in that space. I can't go into all the details right now. But you know the we are obviously investing in that area. And one of the things that we're really like though is looking at containers as a standard distribution framework, let's you plug into everyone's market places. So one of the things that I see around marketplaces historically is that they offer immediate value in connecting a producer and consumer of software but they're not offering steady state value. So once those two have been connected the marketplace isn't adding significant ongoing value. So when you think about what we want to do, we want to make sure that one is, we become a market maker, we let lost of different market places emerge and that we support those. But then in our own efforts we actually add legitimate value to both the producer and the consumer of the software. And the we're not just taking a cut off the top. So but that's, it will become much more clearer in the face of time. >> Craig, thanks for spending some time and congrats on a great keynote. Good to see you again. Thanks for jumping in and sharing the data here on theCUBE, really appreciate it. We are live here in Silicon Valley. It's theCUBE at OpenStackSV, join the conversation #OSSV15. We'll be right back after this short break. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Live from the Mission Bay Conference Center in San Francisco, California, it's theCUBE at Google Cloud Platform Live. Here are your hosts, John Furrier and Jeff Frick. >> Okay welcome back everyone, we are live. This is theCUBE in San Francisco, California for Google Platform Conference Live, their developer conference for the cloud. I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE, Jeff Frick, my cohost, and we're excited to have CUBE alumni but also man about town coming to talk about containers, Kubernetes. We have Craig McLuckie, product manager at Google. Named the product Kubernetes. Welcome back. >> Thank you. It's great to be back on theCUBE. >> As I said, you're the man about town. Containers are the hottest thing going on. Really enabling a lot of new change. A lot of solidarity in the developer community around bringing cloud together, right? You're seeing people go, wow, containers are not a new concept. Docker has brought together the concept and made a huge push, just the ball got moved down the field big time. And then Kubernetes kind of tying it all together and you guys are open sourcing it. I wanted to first talk about, from your perspective, what's changed since VMware where we had a great conversation around Kubernetes? Obviously that was front and center in VMware's show, which is a huge IT enterprise vote of confidence. So now, here at Google, core developers. Large scale, backend network interconnect stuff going on. You almost connect the dots, right? Native developers really cranking out the apps? Large scale interconnect? There's a lot in the middle there between those bookends. What's changed? >> So a couple things I think have changed since I last spoke to theCUBE at VMworld. The first is we've seen an amazing amount of velocity around the Kubernetes community. Not just what Google's been doing but also what our open source community members have been contributing. And we're seeing a very fast acceleration of the overall platform. Moving quickly towards operation maturity, you know getting closer to production readiness and introducing a lot of features that are really need to both run real world applications and to go to new place, to go to a variety of new clouds. We're seeing the reality of a very highly portable and maturing way to build container based applications emerging. That's been very exciting. I think the other thing that's really interesting here is the way that we at Google have been introducing Kubernetes directly into the Google Cloud platform. Today we announced a new product called Google Container Engine which provides the quickest and easiest way to get a Kubernetes cluster up and running and managed for you on Google Cloud platform. And we're very excited about how easy it's making it for our customers to access this new way of building applications. >> Talk about this Container Engine because obviously App Engine's had huge success. Little bit of learning curve but you guys have some core front end developers that you're making that easier now but what is a Container Engine? Is it a Docker engine? Is it Docker compatible? Is it a whole new animal? What it is? What is it? >> That's great, I'm glad you asked that question. I would start by saying this, at Google we have Google Compute Engine which offers powerful, flexible, fast breeding VMs and at the other end of the spectrum we've had App Engine which offers a highly managed, very efficient way to get web applications up and running. And what we've encountered with our customers is that there is no natural way to move from one world to the other world. There's no connective tissue that exists in the middle that let's our customers think about building applications that are running on a cloud computer rather than just running on a virtual machine. And so what Google Container Engine is is a technology that let's our customers program at the cluster level. So Docker has provided this amazingly productive way to package up an application and deploy it into a node. Docker has done a great job of taking a lot of technologies that existed and making them incredibly accessible to developers. But the reality, in our experience, is that at least 80% of our customer's cost of maintaining applications comes out of the operation space so Kubernetes and Google Container Engine are an operationally viable way to build these distributed applications. It really moves our customers from thinking about deploying things into individual virtual machines to instead saying, hey, I'm just going to drop this into this cluster and it will all be wired together so I can take these little Lego building blocks I've got called containers, piece them together in ways that are intuitive and then have a very smart and effective system to run those for me on my behalf.. >> So basically a pool of VMs could be available to developer, if I get this right? So you're saying, I'm a developer, I don't have to worry about the dependencies by VMware, by VMware versus another form factor? I just let the container deal with that? Is that-- >> What we've done, yes, that's exactly right, we've created this strong separation between infrastructure operations and application operations. Docker has created a portable framework to take basically a binary and run it anywhere which is an amazing capability. But that's not enough. You also need to be able to manage that with a framework that can run anywhere so the union of Docker and Kubernetes provides this framework where you're completely abstracted from the underlying infrastructure. You could use VMware, you could use Red Hat Open Stack deployment, you could run on another major cloud provider like Rack Space or IBM and you could just build this application and deploy it there and experience this very powerful cluster first way of building and managing that app. >> Cluster first, I haven't heard that one. >> It's not a cluster you-know-what, it's a cluster first. (laughing) That trumps cloud first from Microsoft but let's go back to Kubernetes. You named the product, what does it mean? I mean it's kind of a, you don't look at a tech name, you say, it's not like alpha one, ya know? >> Kubernetes is the Greek word for the helmsman of a ship. I was looking to find a name and turns out, there's a lot of cluster management technologies and a lot of the obvious names were taken and so I had the inspiration of what is this doing? It's actually the thing that's overseeing the whole of your operation, and is planning what goes where and managing it. So Kubernetes is the helmsman of your cluster group, it's the thing that manages it. >> Did you design the algorithm to stay away from icebergs? (laughing) That's the key thing, you don't want to crash the system. But that's the challenge, you know, just joking aside, orchestration is really a hard thing. That's been a cloud phenomenon, automation. Everyone's been talking about, oh we have management software that automates and orchestrates cloud resources. But now in a cloud environment, it's more challenging now. Talk about what Kubernetes does different than older approaches to orchestration. >> I think is a very, very important consideration. When I look at the way that orchestration's been done traditionally, you tend to think about your application as being deeply tied to the underlying piece of infrastructure, so your orchestration process is provision me a basic machine, go get the packages I need, deploy my application pieces, wire it in explicitly to all the other pieces of my system and so you have to kind of build this relatively fragile system where all the piece are tied together and deeply coupled. What Kubernetes has done is provide a framework where you have a very principled, almost Lego building block that you can stick together and say, I want one of these things, I want it replicated six times, and I want it wired in to these other pieces without actually having to know about where those other pieces are deployed, how they relate to one another. It really is realizing this highly decoupled, very principled way of thinking about your environment as a cluster where you just drop your packages in and they're all wired together using virtualized networking and using this cluster centric paradigm and it radically, radically reduces the cost of operations. I could just give you an example of that. In the old days of Google, before we had these technologies inside the house, it was all we could do to keep the lights on. Like every day was an adventure, it was very hard, because our operations had our application pieces deeply tied into the physical infrastructure. When we introduced the system internally known as Borg, we changed the game. In less than a year-- >> Hold on, name is Borg? >> What was it called? >> Borg? >> Borg. >> Borg. >> Internally known as Borg. (laughing) >> Like connected to everything, like the Microsoft Borg, that's at Microsoft but Microsoft used to be called-- >> I was thinking more Arnold Schwarzenegger, but that's alright. >> Continue. I just wanted to make sure we heard that right. >> We literally doubled the number of production services we were running within a year. It's just so much easier to run things at scale. >> So provisioning, managing, it just makes a smoother operation? Smooth sailing if you will? >> It's really trying to hide provision, managing, right? You're basically, I have an app and I want to build it easily and then I want to deploy it easily and then I want it to be able to scale easily. >> Yes. >> Without having to go back and reconnect it to more stuff. It's funny because I think most people think that that's what clouds have already always done, right? There's basically compute, a networking and storage that's just in small units, virtually available to assemble however I want. But you say it, I used to have to still assemble it and disassemble it, now it's just-- >> Exactly. >> It's just plugging in. >> That's the challenge. The way we've seen cloud evolving has disappointed us a little bit because it really is just a re manifestation of the same existing first generation way of thinking about application development, application provisioning. If you challenge a lot of the fundamental assumptions, if you really step back and think about is there a better way to do this? If I have all this incredibly fungible resource that can turn up and turn down, is there a better way to build applications? Kubernetes is our invitation to the community to participate in defining that thing. We think it is a better way to build applications. We know it because we've been doing this for 10 years and it works really well for us. >> So talk about the open source angle because one, Kubernetes is open source, we've reported that live when we last chatted. Docker has huge success with their open source model. That's not well known in the main world, how the nuance and developers really are engaged and motivated to play with Docker which has it's own flywheel effect which is very viral in network effect. What's your strategy with Kubernetes? Is it standard open source blocking and tackling? Is there things you're doing to prime the pump? Is there a magical formula you guys are really nurturing and fostering? >> I am very happy with the way that the projects been run and it's been humbling to see the amount of adoption success we've had. I think that this manner of operating where we built Kubernetes as an open source project with the community, and then we take it and take exactly that and we turn it into a service and add a lot high value capabilities to it, is a pattern that's working very well for us. It's massively increased our velocity because it's not just us that are actually developing the project, we have amazing contributions from people like Red Hat. They're putting a lot of time and effort into making this thing great. Our friends at CoreOS are putting a lot of effort into it. We're able to do more because it's just more people working on it, so the velocity is far higher. The second thing is that we were able to go straight to an open offer. Normally we do these early adopter programs hidden behind the curtain, try to figure stuff out and do a lot of iteration. We didn't have to do that because the community has built the API with us, our customers have been working directly with us to shape the API. We know it's going to work for them. >> And that's helped you guys, so your differentiation doesn't really conflict with the community? >> Absolutely not. We recognized as we moved from a cloud that's worked mostly in the start up community and with internet facing companies to a cloud that's really engaging mainstream business. Our customers want multi cloud. It's critical to them. They want to be able to run in hybrid cloud. They want to have multi cloud provider relationships. They don't want to just rely on one provider and so our framework that works well everywhere but works especially well on Google, serves our business very well. >> Getting some great prompts on Crowd Chat so thanks for coming on theCUBE, always great to chat with you. You're in a hot area, we'd love to pick your brain but I want you to address three things I'm going to say to you, get your thoughts on. >> Okay. >> It can be your Google perspective, could be your own geeky perspective. Perimeter-less IT, multi cloud and mobile infrastructure. Three of the hottest areas on the planet right now in terms of people looking at investments, retooling, trying to figure things out, perimeter-less IT. Obviously perimeter IT, perimeter based security? >> Sure. >> Kind of goes away with the cloud right? >> Yeah. >> But you still need security, it's perimeter-less, so what does that mean? How do people understand and grasp that concept? >> I'm not sure I'm the right person to speak to perimeter less IT but I can say that-- >> Just in general. >> When I think about it, I think there's a couple of things that are happening here that are really interesting. When I look at the idea of perimeter-less IT, when I look at the idea of what I consider the democratization of IT, if you will, we've lived in a world where most businesses have been beholden to a specific organization that's controlled their provisioning, the policies and the set of bits they can use, everything's been controlled and IT hasn't been well loved by and large. We're moving into a world where it's a much more open ecosystem. Departments are far more empowered, anyone with a corporate credit card can go and get a machine and that's creating amazing agility and velocity for businesses. But it's introducing-- >> Creativity, too. >> A lot of creativity, but it's introducing a lot of pain as well. The hard thing is going to be creating a smart framework that allows empowered decentralization. Going from this world of highly controlled to decentralized empowerment, and I think that's where we're going to see a lot of interest from folks that are operating in the airplay space. >> Okay, multi cloud, just in general. Will people move to multiple clouds? Do you see that? UberClouds, we had Bitnami in earlier like, ah, people aren't really going to multiple clouds. They're not interested in moving workloads. Is that a state of the current situation or will it evolve to workloads anywhere? >> Multi cloud is the reality of our world. There's no serious customer I've spoken to in the last six months that has not been interested in a multi cloud relationship. Sorry, that's not true, there's no enterprise customer I've spoken to the last six months. >> That has not been interested? >> That has not been interested in multi cloud. >> And the reason is? >> In some ways. >> It's for what, resources? >> There's a couple of reasons. One is a lot of companies want to have just a multi provider relationship. They don't want to be beholden to a single cloud provider and frankly almost every customer I speak to has a massive investment in on premise infrastructure. They want to move away from a lot of the pain associated with managing that, but it's not going to happen overnight. Hybrid cloud is going to exist for quite a while. >> This is back to your empowered decentralization theme. >> And we have to provide them the tools to do that. We have to create positive pressure that moves them from those clouds to the public cloud. >> Final concept, and I've heard this a lot, kind of leads into the keynote, not necessarily the words but almost reeking of this concept of mobile infrastructure. I mean, mobile first, cluster first, kind of enables mobile first but mobile is obviously a form factor, whether it's an internet of things as a human or a device, doesn't matter it's still an endpoint the network. >> Yeah. >> It's a multitude of millions of devices so what is mobile infrastructure? Is it different? Is it the same? What's your take on it? >> It's an interesting question and the reality of our world is it's a mobile world. It's almost folly to do anything but think about mobile as the primary vehicle for customers, consumers and everyone else to interface with the internet, with the web. It certainly introduces an interesting set of challenges to application developers. I think one of the things that I am most sort of interested in cracking from a cloud provider's perspective is the world of multiple devices where you have a large set of devices in different form factors that are ultimately presenting a view of the same set of data, the same set of information and creating a set of experiences that work well in that multi device space. Moving away from a world where state is bound to a device to a world where state is based in your cloud and your device is simply providing a view or a way to interface with that data. We still have a way to go before that is fully materialized but I think that's going to be a big sort of anchor point of a lot of mobile development in the space. >> So Craig, where's the locus of competition move then? If the data center just becomes a resource that's on tap, basically, that I can just get? How do the cloud providers then differentiate? >> Basic infrastructure is relatively undifferentiated but when I look at the way that we run inside Google, we do some really, really scary smart things to make your application run for you. If you think about the way we run our infrastructure it's almost like the flight controller of a modern airplane. It's going from the old wire based control system where you move something to move a flap to a world where you have this controller that's taking in million of signals a second and making incredibly informed decisions that is optimizing the heck out of everything you do and making very fine grain corrections and I think that's going to be a huge avenue of differentiation. When you take an application, you package it and you give it to us and you trust us to run it for you and it's running at a slightly higher level, we have a much high extraction level, we can do incredibly smart things with things like machine learning technologies. We can watch how your application's running. We know how it ran last time so we can tell if something's going wrong because we have the ability to actually watch it. This is how we run internally. >> Right, right. >> It's not just about the infrastructure. It's going to be about smart systems that run your application for you. And that's going to be hard to-- >> It's really to abstract above the management of the application. It's actually the management of the application and the optimization of the application as opposed to the infrastructure? >> There's so much more value in moving from static, dumb infrastructure to actively managed, sort of precision managed container based capabilities. It's quite jarring. This was clear to me very soon after we shipped Google Compute Engine. I was able to see, we never looked inside VM so we were able to see what level of CP utilization our customer's were getting and we compared that to what we were able to run in our internal web loads and our customers are only getting like, there were several integer multiples less utilization than what they were paying for. So we knew that something could be done. We could actually move up the abstraction layer and just do a better job by actively managing and making smart decisions. And that would be very disruptive-- >> So let's play a game, we played a game with our last guest, we'll play the game of you and I are going to go into business together and be venture capitalist. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Sounds like fun. >> What's our investment thesis? Knowing what we know, I mean, there's a lot of entrepreneurs out there really looking at the enterprise right now. The enterprise is hard, cloud is kind of like a proxy for the enterprise but it's not like your classic enterprise. I'm a tech entrepreneur, I'm a coder, I'm an architect, I'm an OS guy, systems guy, could be a creative filmmaker, whatever but I want to come in and get some white space. Is there white space out there that you see that is an opportunity for developers that could really come in and stake claim and build a really good business? It could be lifestyle business, it could be a home run. Where would we invest? >> Yeah, I think there's so much white space in this domain. We are in the very early days of getting these technologies to market. Obviously there's just bolstering the basic, sort of the fundamentals of the platform. Overlay networking, everyone's talking SDN. Obviously there's a lot of hype around that but being able to create an abstraction that allows high levels of plugability for different network fabrics as you move between clouds is interesting. Storage, and doing a better job of providing virtualized storage that is available to these containers is an area of opportunity. There's a lot of work to be done in the tuning environment, full on application lifecycle management, continuous integration, lots of opportunity in that space. And then frankly, as we start looking at taking these technologies to market and deploying them into real businesses that are running multi cloud, there's going to be a lot of the governance, risk management and compliance overlay capabilities that just don't exist. We have the ability to define policy and enforce it in a very effective way, whether it's security policy, data loss prevention policy-- >> But it has to be dynamic, right? >> And it has to by dynamically done and it has to be enforced at the node. >> That's software, that's hard software? >> And there's so much work to be done there. There's so many opportunities to either create niche, vertically oriented capabilities of service specific protocol or unique, highly valuable, cross coding capabilities. I'm very excited about the future in this space. >> Where would we get started if I was an entrepreneur? Like, hey Craig, I saw your interview, where do I get started? Writing an app engine code? I want to put the boat in the water and starting drifting into this area you just mentioned, how should I navigate in? How should I vector in? >> A lot of it depends on where you're going to be operating in the stack. I would suggest you go and learn Go. Go is rapidly, GoLang, if you want to talk about the sort of the development environment is rapidly emerging as the language for the new cloud. We're seeing a lot of work in the Go community. Docker is written in Go, Kubernetes is written in Go. So I'd start there. It's a great platform for systems development. So I'd start looking at some of the existing technologies, Docker, Kubernetes, start just assessing where the gaps are. I'd probably approach it from a systems development perspective if I was doing it but there's also going to be a lot of value higher up the chain where you can actually-- >> You can dance on top of the stack and around the stack? >> Absolutely. >> Alright so final question, are we going back to the old OS days? I know you were joking before we came on, conversational even in a way, that was pretty relevant. I mean, we're seeing concepts of systems programming of the 80's kind of, but in decentralized way. Comment on that because I think that's tying a lot of things together. >> I think that's an incredibly astute observation and I think we're moving away from a world, operating system today is a node local thing, right? So I have an operating system and it's providing an environment that abstracts me from the physical details of one piece of hardware, one machine, you know one set of resources. What we're starting to see now is the emergence of some of these distributed concepts where you're programming not to a specific singe piece of infrastructure, single piece of hardware but you're programming to a cluster and so I think it's very much like that. I think that's a very astute observation and we're going to see the buzz-- >> But no one vendor owns it. It's owned by the world. >> And nor should one. It needs to be a POSIX like ubiquitous framework that let's us get more out of these cluster centric applications. >> Very organic, I mean I love what's happening is a very organic development but yet there's some, kind of group dynamics going on around cluster and Docker's a great example. Came out of the woodwork to become a defacto standard. Probably the fastest defacto standard that I've ever seen-- >> It's been breathtaking how quickly that technology's taken hold. >> And that's just the crowd. >> Yeah. >> Just saying, hey if we don't like decide on something? We like these guys the best, they didn't piss anyone off or whatever, whatever the dynamic is. It could be double source, flywheel, but-- >> It's interesting, certainly from Google's perspective, we've noticed Docker a lot sooner than most the world did. We had technologies that we could have stood up as potentially competing capabilities but we chose not to, because the world is incredibly well served by a single standard for defining and packaging applications. Now we need to continue that and we need to build the standard for the POSIX like distributed systems standard, that people think about coding to when they're building these modern, next gen cloud V2 applications. >> Craig, I really appreciate you spending the time. Love the conversation, love kind of the long winding road we took there. We knocked out some Kubernetes. We talked about Docker containers. Talked about the future of the industry. Really appreciate it, you're awesome to have on theCUBE here, you're invited any time. CUBE alumni Craig McLuckie right on theCUBE. We'll be right back, here, live in San Francisco broadcasting exclusively from Google's developer conference here, the Cloud Platform Live Event from Google. We'll be right back after this short break. (light music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE here, in Palo Alto, California for a Cube Conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. This is a KubeCon preview conversation. We got a great guest here, in studio, Madhura Maskasky, Co-Founder and VP of Product, Head of Product at Platform9. Madhura, great to see you. Thank you for coming in and sharing this conversation about, this cube conversation about KubeCon, a Kubecon conversation. >> Thanks for having me. >> A light nice play on words there, a little word play, but the fun thing about theCUBE is, we were there at the beginning when OpenStack was kind of on its transition, Kubernetes was just starting. I remember talking to Lou Tucker back in, I think Seattle or some event and Craig McLuckie was still working at Google at the time. And Google was debating on putting the paper out and so much has happened. Being present at creation, you guys have been there too with Platform9. Present at creation of the Kubernetes wave was not obvious only a few insiders kind of got the big picture. We were one of 'em. We saw this as a big wave. Docker containers at that time was a unicorn funded company. Now they've went back to their roots a few years ago. I think four years ago, they went back and recapped and now they're all pure open source. Since then Docker containers and containers have really powered the Kubernetes wave. Combined with the amazing work of the CNCF and KubeCon which we've been covering every year. You saw the maturation, you saw the wave, the early days, end user projects being contributed. Like Envoy's been a huge success. And then the white spaces filling in on the map, you got observability, you've got run time, you got all the things, still some white spaces in there but it's really been great to watch this growth. So I have to ask you, what do you expect this year? You guys have some cutting edge technology. You got Arlo announced and a lot's going on Kubernetes this year. It's going mainstream. You're starting to see the traditional enterprises embrace and some are scaling faster than others, manage services, plethora of choices. What do you expect this year at KubeCon North America in Detroit? >> Yeah, so I think you summarize kind of that life cycle or lifeline of Kubernetes pretty well. I think I remember the times when, just at the very beginning of Kubernetes, after it was released we were sitting I think with box, box dot com and they were describing to us why they are early adopters of Kubernetes. And we were just sitting down taking notes trying to understand this new project and what value it adds, right? And then flash forward to today where there are Dilbert strips written about Kubernetes. That's how popular it has become. So, I think as that has happened, I think one of the things that's also happened is the enterprises that adopted it relatively early are running it at a massive scale or looking to run it at massive scale. And so I think at scale cloud-native is going to be the most important theme. At scale governance, at scale manageability are going to be top of the mind. And the third factor, I think that's going to be top of the mind is cost control at scale. >> Yeah, and one of the things that we've seen is that the incubated projects a lot more being incubated now and you got the combination of end user and company contributed open source. You guys are contributing RLO >> RLO. >> and open source. >> Yeah. >> That's been part of your game plan there. So you guys are no stranger open source. How do you see this year's momentum? Is it more white space being filled? What's new coming out of the block? What do you think is going to come out of this year? What's rising in terms of traction? What do you see emerging as more notable that might not have been there last year? >> Yeah, so I think it's all about filling that white space, some level of consolidation, et cetera. That's usually the trend in the cloud-native space. And I think it's going to continue to be on that and it's going to be tooling that lets users simplify their lives. Now that Kubernetes is part of your day to day. And so it is observability, et cetera, have always been top of the mind, but I think starting this year, et cetera it's going to be at the next level. Which is gone other times of just running your Prometheus at individual cluster level, just to take that as an example. Now you need a solution- >> Yep. >> that operates at this massive scale across different distributions and your edge locations. So, it's taking those same problems but taking them to that next order of management. >> I'm looking at my notes here and I see orchestration and service mesh, which Envoy does. And you're seeing other solutions come out as well like Linkerd and whatnot. Some are more popular than others. What areas do you see are most needed? If you could go in there and be program chair for a day and you've got a day job as VP of product at Platform9. So you kind of have to have that future view of the roadmap and looking back at where you've come, what would you want to prioritize if you could bring your VP of product skills to the open source and saying, hey, can I point out some needs here? What would you say? >> Yeah, I think just the more tooling that lets people make sense and reduce some of the chaos that this prowling ecosystem of cloud-native creates. Which is tooling, that is not adding more tooling that covers white space is great, but introducing abilities that let you better manage what you have today is probably absolutely top of the mind. And I think that's really not covered today in terms of tools that are around. >> You know, I've been watching the top five incubated projects in CNCF, Argo cracked the top five. I think they got close to 12,000 GitHub stars. They have a conference now, ArgoCon here in California. What is that about? >> Yeah. >> Why is that so popular? I mean, I know it's kind of about obviously workflows and dealing with good pipeline, but why is that so popular right now? >> I think it's very interesting and I think Argo's journey and it's just climbed up in terms of its Github stars for example. And I think it's because as these scale factors that we talk about on one end number of nodes and clusters growing, and on the other end number of sites you're managing grows. I think that CD or continuous deployment of applications it used to kind of be something that you want to get to, it's that north star, but most enterprises wouldn't quite be there. They would either think that they're not ready and it's not needed enough to get there. But now when you're operating at that level of scale and to still maintain consistency without sky rocketing your costs, in terms of ops people, CD almost becomes a necessity. You need some kind of manageable, predictable way of deploying apps without having to go out with new releases that are going out every six months or so you need to do that on a daily basis, even hourly basis. And that's why. >> Scales the theme again, >> Yep. >> back to scale. >> Yep. >> All right, final question. We'll wrap up this preview for KubeCon in Detroit. Whereas we start getting the lay of the land and the focus. If you had to kind of predict the psychology of the developer that's going to be attending in person and they're going to have a hybrid event. So, they will be not as good as being in person. Us, it's going to be the first time kind of post pandemic when I think everyone's going to be together in LA it was a weird time in the calendar and Valencia was the kind of the first international one but this is the first time in North America. So, we're expecting a big audience. >> Mhm. >> If you could predict or what's your view on the psychology of the attendee this year? Obviously pumped to be back. But what do you think they're going to be thinking about? what's on their mind? What are they going to be peaked on? What's the focus? Where will be the psychology? Where will be the mindset? What are people going to be looking for this year? If you had to make a prediction on what the attendees are going to be thinking about what would you say? >> Yeah. So there's always a curiosity in terms of what's new, what new cool tools that are coming out that's going to help address some of the gaps. What can I try out? That's always as I go back to my development roots, first in mind, but then very quickly it comes down to what's going to help me do my job easier, better, faster, at lower cost. And I think again, I keep going back to that theme of automation, declarative automation, automation at scale, governance at scale, these are going to be top of the mind for both developers and ops teams. >> We'll be there covering it like a blanket like we always do from day one, present at creation at KubeCon we are going to be covering again for the consecutive year in a row. We love the CNCF. We love what they do. We thank the developers this year, again continue going mainstream closer and closer to the front lines as the company is the application. As we say, here on theCUBE we'll be there bringing you all the signal. Thanks for coming in and sharing your thoughts on KubeCon 2022. >> Thank you for having me. >> Okay. I'm John Furrier here in theCUBE in Palo Alto, California. Thanks for watching. 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(light music) >> Hello, welcome back everybody to theCUBE's coverage in New York City of AWS Summit 2022. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We had Dave Vellante, Lisa Martin here earlier. I'm going to wrap it up here with James Forrester, last interview of the day here in New York. Wish we would have had another day. It's a packed house, 10,000 people. James Forrester's the VP Worldwide Technical Leader for VMware's Cloud on AWS. On AWS is a big distinction. James, welcome to theCube. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much, John. It's great to be here. >> So I think it's been like six years since the announcement of VMware's Cloud on AWS, which is a separate instance, separate hardware, but it's changed the game for VMware. You guys have done a lot of work, successful traction with customers. Clarified, I remember at that time, it really clarified VMware's Cloud play. Which then gave VMware more time to work on what it's doing now, which is, you know, using all their assets and their operations with Tanzu, Monterey, Cloud Native, Cross Cloud. What they call you guys call Cross Cloud, I call Super Cloud, action, a lot of stuff happening. So thanks for coming on. Okay. So first question is, what's the future look like for VMware's Cloud on AWS? >> Super bright, super bright. And there's a couple of great reasons for that. I think firstly, what we're seeing is that customers have now made enough progress in their cloud journeys. Many of them have chosen AWS and they're going full force. We're going to help them go faster. We're going to help them get there and get native to those adjacent services much quicker with more confidence and more resiliency. So it's a super exciting time to be doing what we do. >> You know, VMware has had a steady install base, okay. I mean basically it's like almost ingrained in the operations. What do you guys see as that next level step up function? Because you know, obviously Broadcom is buying VMware. Obviously that utility will be in place, but there's more. There's more there that customers can tap into. This is the promise of the cross-cloud. How do you talk about that when you got the AWS action? How does that all integrate? >> Yeah, absolutely. And of course, because so many customers are going to AWS on their own cloud journeys right now, what we get to have the conversation about is how they can get there more confidently. And so for customers who are just starting out, who are looking at their application portfolios, who have a ton of skilled IT professionals who they want to bring into that cloud journey, they can use the skills they already have. For those folks who are a little bit further along but they may be finding that refactoring their applications is more complex, more difficult that they anticipated, we give them a way of moving with confidence and with much less risk so they can do those cloud journeys that they anticipated. >> You know, James, I want to get your thoughts on what the state of the current situation is, vis-à-vis, your customers and your customers' appetite for AWS services. 'Cause one of the promises of the original deal was clarifying messaging but more importantly, customers can get the VMware Cloud and take advantage of the higher level services on AWS. What's the update there? What's the current state of the art? What's some of the patterns that you're seeing on the uptake of services and how they're working together? >> Yeah, it's a great call out. And honestly, one of the misconceptions that I address right out of the gate is that somehow going VMware Cloud takes you away from those services. It doesn't, it gets you closer to them. Full, direct, native access to all of those hundreds of great AWS services. So what we often find is that customers have their enterprise data, inside data workloads in their data centers. But what they want to do is get that up next to the AWS services that can use it, like Redshift and Athena and Glue. They can move those workloads right adjacent to those services to start using them right away. So it's a great way to look at the platform. >> So one of the observations that's pretty well understood right now by most people, I'd say 90%, if not more, not a hundred percent 'cause I've heard people like not get it, but it's pretty clear that the operating model for the the enterprise will be hybrid as a steady state. I don't think there's any debate on that unless you think there is. >> Do you feel the same- >> No debate. No debate. >> Okay. Hybrid's a steady state. What does that mean as clients start to think about edge and their data centers. 'Cause now the private cloud is back in the game. So I've heard people talk about private cloud, which we, I think we coined the term with Dave, Wikibon years ago, but it kind of went away because that was not the public cloud. So public cloud won, on premise didn't go away. We saw Amazon with Outpost. So now they're like, I can still have stuff on prem and run it in a cloud operations. So they're calling that private cloud, I think. So you're starting to hear the same things. What it means basically is that hybrid is winning. It's the standard. What does the hybrid environment look like from a VMware perspective as you guys look at that and have been building that out 'cause you have customers that are on premises. >> Yeah. >> Is it just to the cloud and back? Is it, is there any changes? Is there new connective tissue? Is there a glue layer? What's the operating model for VMware customers? >> Well, customers wanted those same benefits from public cloud agility, cost benefits, elasticity, innovation, sovereignty, sustainability, but they wanted to be able to do that everywhere. They wanted it in their data centers. They wanted it at the edge. And as you've pointed out public cloud delivered that for customers. AWS first out there delivering that for customers. Now with innovations like VMware Cloud and AWS outpost, we're able to bring that back into the data center. We're able to bring those same benefits of public cloud into the customers on-prem environment. And you're right. We see hybrid just rolling and rolling and being able to offer our solution across all of it. >> Yeah, we're big fans of VMware because theCube's 12 years old, we've been at every VMworld. Now they're calling it VMware Explorer, the events coming up. So the folks watching, plug for VMware Explorer, formerly VMworld, it's on the schedule. Content catalog just came out last week. It's looking pretty good. So put a plug out there. We'll be there with theCube, two sets. So you know, if you're going to VMworld, now Explorer go register, get up there. It's in San Francisco, always a great event. vSphere and vSAN, always great products. But you got Carbon Black, you got Security. So these things have all been working kind of pistons for VMware. Tanzu, I know Raghu and those guys are doing it. Craig McLuckie and team, they're working on that. You got Tanzu, you got Monterey. That's the new cloud native thing. How is that tracking vis-à-vis, the operating model of the the core engine, vSphere, vSAN and others. And then with the native services of Cloud. So you got AWS Cloud with VMware Cloud, vSphere, vSAN, Carbon Black, and Security. And then you got the Tanzu over here. How are those three things coming together? >> Well, the services that customers know and love first and foremost that they've been running the mission critical workloads on, vSphere, vSAN, NSX. What VMware cloud and AWS is, is a packaging together of those services. So customers don't have to configure it all themselves and do the heavy lifting. We manage and run it on their behalf. What we are adding to that most recently with Tanzu is now the ability to run containers within the same environment. 'Cause customers tell us they've got parts of their organization that are very much on vSphere VMs. Parts of their organization are moving to containers. We want be able to provide a single operating model, a single layer, a single way of managing all of that. No matter where it's deployed. >> You know, remember back in the day, when Raghu wasn't the CEO, Carl Eschenbach was there, Sanjay Poonen was there. Carl's now at Sequoia Capital, Raghu's a CEO. Sanjay's kind of looking for a next gig. I always said, why doesn't vSphere and NSX become that abstraction layer and commoditize the network so that white boxes and Dell and HP could all play in that layer? It just never happened yet. Is that something you guys talk about at all? Like, I mean in the, in the smokey room, in the execs, is that happening? What's the vision? >> Well, we always work backwards- from customers, right? (John laughing) And what customers are telling us is they want us to help them with that undifferentiated heavy lifting. So who knows where that could take us, but right now we're very focused on helping those customers move with confidence to the cloud. >> You didn't take the bait on that one. I appreciate that. (James laughing) Okay. So let's get some perspective. You're out with customers. What are the big things that you're seeing right now from your customers right now? 'Cause you look behind us here, 10,000 people at this event. This is not a no-show. This is not a throwaway event in, you know, somewhere in the corner of the world. This is New York City, only one summit. This is bigger than Snowflake Summit and that was packed. So from an event standpoint, this is pretty a big game statement here for AWS. These companies are not experiencing headwinds, they're changing. So what are your customers telling you around what they're looking at for the cloud native architecture? I mean obviously the digital transformation is continuing, obviously clouds here. And again, we were saying earlier, this is the first time in history that the cloud hyperscalers have been in market during a so-called downturn. So there's no other data. 2008, I wouldn't call 'em up and running. They were building, but AWS, Azure, others, these cloud players they're in market. And so you're starting to see kind of some data coming out saying, Hey, this thing's still working, the engine of innovation is cranking out and it's not slowing down the digital transformation. It might change the capital markets and valuations but it's not changing customers. That's what I'm hearing. Now, you probably would agree with that, right? >> James: I think that's exactly right. >> Okay. So let's stay with that. If you believe that, then it's like, okay, what are they doing? So what are customers doubling down on? What are some of the patterns you're seeing in the environment today that you could share with the audience? >> Yeah, so I think first and foremost is that steady transition to the cloud to deliver all of those benefits, agility, cost, elasticity, innovation, sovereignty, sustainability that hasn't gone away at all. In fact, it's only accelerated. With workloads like virtual desktops, which became so critical during COVID the need to be able to provide that kind of scalable elastic capacity has only increased. Now, coupled with that, most of these customers are already on a cloud journey. And while some folks may have had the luxury of letting that go a little bit more slowly, nowadays the urgency is pervasive across all of the industries that we get to talk to in New York. Everyone needs to go faster. Everybody's not seeing the progress that they expected that we think we can help them deliver. So the opportunity I think that's come out of COVID is more workloads, different use cases, disaster recovery, ransomware- >> Is that more of an awareness or reality or both? >> Both. Absolutely. >> Okay. So let me ask the next question. 'Cause this is a good conversation, I think. I agree a hundred percent. We're seeing the same exact thing. Now let's talk about how companies are thinking about the real opportunity that's emerged, which is refactoring the business model without actually changing the makeup of the organization per se, to take on new territories and potentially take over categories. >> James: Mm hmm. >> So I mean a data warehouse and a data cloud's kind of the same thing. Snowflake probably wouldn't like me saying that they're a data warehouse because they call themselves a data cloud, but it's kind of the same thing, just refactored on AWS. >> James: Yep. >> That's a super cloud. So that's an opportunity for everyone to do that in every vertical. How many customers are actually thinking that way and actually taking steps to pursue that, capture that opportunity? Or do you agree it's the opportunity? >> No, I think that that is an opportunity and I love that idea of super cloud in that what I think customers have started to realize, over the last couple of years in particular, is it's very difficult to take advantage of all of those great cloud services if your applications are still behind a whole lot of different layers of firewalls and so forth. So getting the application close to those services, in proximity to those services is that first step in modernization. Then it doesn't have to be a change the wings on the plane while it's flying conversation, which- >> John: Yeah. >> You know, is very risky for a lot of organizations. >> John: Exactly. >> It's a let's get the plane going a little bit faster. Let's get the plane going a little bit smoother, and let's get the plane to its destination with less risk. >> You know, James, that reminds me of the old school conversations of non disruptive operations. Remember those days? >> James: I do, yeah. >> Mostly around storage and, and servers. But that's what basically what you're saying. Transform while operating, right? >> James: Exactly. >> So this is, you can do both. You got to make time and it's a talent question too. I'd love to get your thoughts on how customers are thinking about who do you put on which task. 'Cause you want your A players on both areas. You don't want all your A players, what I hear, CSOs and CIOs telling me is that, I put all my A players on transformation, I got no one running the business. >> James: Mm hmm. >> So you got to kind of balance. That's a cultural team decision. >> It's a cultural team decision. It's also a skills marketplace decision. >> John: Yeah. >> And there's a practical reality to the skills that are available and how fast you can hire them. So a big part of the conversation that we have is when customers have existing skills sets, plug those into their transformation, plug those into their business outcomes. I like to use the phrase, "Let's make heroes out of IT" because they can be a much more critical player than they think they can be. Yeah, IT basically is not even around anymore. It's part of the organization. And then you have data science and data engineering coming in. So it's, you know, IT is not a department anymore, it's the company >> Exactly right. >> If you're kind of going down that road, yeah. >> Yeah. Alright, so final question. What's the biggest change you've seen and observed in your current year and a half? You know, we're coming out of COVID, knowing what was before, what sea change, what inflection point are we in now? How would you describe this current market? 'Cause again, we're kind of in a unique market. You know, you got crypto around the corner, people getting attracted to that, little bubbly obviously, reality of cloud and 2.0 or super cloud emerging. On premise is not going away. Edge exploding on the industrial side, especially with machine learning coming along. So this operating model is clearly in sight. What's the biggest observation you've noticed. >> I think it's the sense of urgency over the last couple of years in that most customers I talked to are no longer relaxed about the timing of delivering cloud capabilities to their organizations. Most customers are on sort of a transformation journey of their own and digital transformation and cloud transformation are absolutely fundamental to that. >> One more real quick follow up question if you don't mind, 'cause I appreciate your time. One of the things that's come up a lot in our conversations is the role of the ecosystem. Not only as a part of the business model but also validation of the enablement that cloud offers companies. You have an enabling platform, your ecosystem is well known. And so your customers are starting to develop ecosystems. So if the cloud model kind of trickles like downstream, ecosystem is kind of a proof of something. >> James: Mm hmm. >> What's your view of all this ecosystem discussion as we transform this next generation? >> Yeah, I think it touches on a couple of things. So obviously there is a technology ecosystem, which is evolving very rapidly in support of cloud and cloud transformation. But what's interesting, I think is the business ecosystem that's evolving around it. We're seeing our customers evolve their own businesses to assume that those cloud capabilities will be available to them. And if the cloud capabilities are not available to them in a timely fashion, then the ecosystem starts to have a domino effect. So the ecosystems are interdependent between business, and technology, and skills, and talent. And I think that's a great to be >> James Forrester, they're going to shut us down. The speakers are on, they're going to pull the plug. Thanks for being our last interview here in New York City and bringing us home. Really appreciate you taking the time to come on theCube. >> John, thanks so much. Great to be here, really enjoyed it. Okay. We are wrapping it up here in New York City. I'm John Ford with theCube, great day. For Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante, and the entire crew of theCube here on the ground. Live in person events are back. theCube hybrid, get online, check out our coverage there. The SiliconANGLE and thecube.net. I'm John Furrier signing off from New York City. See you next time. (light music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vollante. >> The rise of Kubernetes came about through a combination of forces that were, in hindsight, quite a long shot. Amazon's dominance created momentum for Cloud native application development, and the need for newer and simpler experiences, beyond just easily spinning up computer as a service. This wave crashed into innovations from a startup named Docker, and a reluctant competitor in Google, that needed a way to change the game on Amazon and the Cloud. Now, add in the effort of Red Hat, which needed a new path beyond Enterprise Linux, and oh, by the way, it was just about to commit to a path of a Kubernetes alternative for OpenShift and figure out a governance structure to hurt all the cats and the ecosystem and you get the remarkable ascendancy of Kubernetes. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we tapped the back stories of a new documentary that explains the improbable events that led to the creation of Kubernetes. We'll share some new survey data from ETR and commentary from the many early the innovators who came on theCUBE during the exciting period since the founding of Docker in 2013, which marked a new era in computing, because we're talking about Kubernetes and developers today, the hoodie is on. And there's a new two part documentary that I just referenced, it's out and it was produced by Honeypot on Kubernetes, part one and part two, tells a story of how Kubernetes came to prominence and many of the players that made it happen. Now, a lot of these players, including Tim Hawkin Kelsey Hightower, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, Brian Grant Solomon Hykes, Jerry Chen and others came on theCUBE during formative years of containers going mainstream and the rise of Kubernetes. John Furrier and Stu Miniman were at the many shows we covered back then and they unpacked what was happening at the time. We'll share the commentary from the guests that they interviewed and try to add some context. Now let's start with the concept of developer defined structure, DDI. Jerry Chen was at VMware and he could see the trends that were evolving. He left VMware to become a venture capitalist at Greylock. Docker was his first investment. And he saw the future this way. >> What happens is when you define infrastructure software you can program it. You make it portable. And that the beauty of this cloud wave what I call DDI's. Now, to your point is every piece of infrastructure from storage, networking, to compute has an API, right? And, and AWS there was an early trend where S3, EBS, EC2 had API. >> As building blocks too. >> As building blocks, exactly. >> Not monolithic. >> Monolithic building blocks every little building bone block has it own API and just like Docker really is the API for this unit of the cloud enables developers to define how they want to build their applications, how to network them know as Wills talked about, and how you want to secure them and how you want to store them. And so the beauty of this generation is now developers are determining how apps are built, not just at the, you know, end user, you know, iPhone app layer the data layer, the storage layer, the networking layer. So every single level is being disrupted by this concept of a DDI and where, how you build use and actually purchase IT has changed. And you're seeing the incumbent vendors like Oracle, VMware Microsoft try to react but you're seeing a whole new generation startup. >> Now what Jerry was explaining is that this new abstraction layer that was being built here's some ETR data that quantifies that and shows where we are today. The chart shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share which represents the pervasiveness in the survey set. So as Jerry and the innovators who created Docker saw the cloud was becoming prominent and you can see it still has spending velocity that's elevated above that 40% red line which is kind of a magic mark of momentum. And of course, it's very prominent on the X axis as well. And you see the low level infrastructure virtualization and that even floats above servers and storage and networking right. Back in 2013 the conversation with VMware. And by the way, I remember having this conversation deeply at the time with Chad Sakac was we're going to make this low level infrastructure invisible, and we intend to make virtualization invisible, IE simplified. And so, you see above the two arrows there related to containers, container orchestration and container platforms, which are abstraction layers and services above the underlying VMs and hardware. And you can see the momentum that they have right there with the cloud and AI and RPA. So you had these forces that Jerry described that were taking shape, and this picture kind of summarizes how they came together to form Kubernetes. And the upper left, Of course you see AWS and we inserted a picture from a post we did, right after the first reinvent in 2012, it was obvious to us at the time that the cloud gorilla was AWS and had all this momentum. Now, Solomon Hykes, the founder of Docker, you see there in the upper right. He saw the need to simplify the packaging of applications for cloud developers. Here's how he described it. Back in 2014 in theCUBE with John Furrier >> Container is a unit of deployment, right? It's the format in which you package your application all the files, all the executables libraries all the dependencies in one thing that you can move to any server and deploy in a repeatable way. So it's similar to how you would run an iOS app on an iPhone, for example. >> A Docker at the time was a 30% company and it just changed its name from .cloud. And back to the diagram you have Google with a red question mark. So why would you need more than what Docker had created. Craig McLuckie, who was a product manager at Google back then explains the need for yet another abstraction. >> We created the strong separation between infrastructure operations and application operations. And so, Docker has created a portable framework to take it, basically a binary and run it anywhere which is an amazing capability, but that's not enough. You also need to be able to manage that with a framework that can run anywhere. And so, the union of Docker and Kubernetes provides this framework where you're completely abstracted from the underlying infrastructure. You could use VMware, you could use Red Hat open stack deployment. You could run on another major cloud provider like rec. >> Now Google had this huge cloud infrastructure but no commercial cloud business compete with AWS. At least not one that was taken seriously at the time. So it needed a way to change the game. And it had this thing called Google Borg, which is a container management system and scheduler and Google looked at what was happening with virtualization and said, you know, we obviously could do better Joe Beda, who was with Google at the time explains their mindset going back to the beginning. >> Craig and I started up Google compute engine VM as a service. And the odd thing to recognize is that, nobody who had been in Google for a long time thought that there was anything to this VM stuff, right? Cause Google had been on containers for so long. That was their mindset board was the way that stuff was actually deployed. So, you know, my boss at the time, who's now at Cloudera booted up a VM for the first time, and anybody in the outside world be like, Hey, that's really cool. And his response was like, well now what? Right. You're sitting at a prompt. Like that's not super interesting. How do I run my app? Right. Which is, that's what everybody's been struggling with, with cloud is not how do I get a VM up? How do I actually run my code? >> Okay. So Google never really did virtualization. They were looking at the market and said, okay what can we do to make Google relevant in cloud. Here's Eric Brewer from Google. Talking on theCUBE about Google's thought process at the time. >> One interest things about Google is it essentially makes no use of virtual machines internally. And that's because Google started in 1998 which is the same year that VMware started was kind of brought the modern virtual machine to bear. And so Google infrastructure tends to be built really on kind of classic Unix processes and communication. And so scaling that up, you get a system that works a lot with just processes and containers. So kind of when I saw containers come along with Docker, we said, well, that's a good model for us. And we can take what we know internally which was called Borg a big scheduler. And we can turn that into Kubernetes and we'll open source it. And suddenly we have kind of a cloud version of Google that works the way we would like it to work. >> Now, Eric Brewer gave us the bumper sticker version of the story there. What he reveals in the documentary that I referenced earlier is that initially Google was like, why would we open source our secret sauce to help competitors? So folks like Tim Hockin and Brian Grant who were on the original Kubernetes team, went to management and pressed hard to convince them to bless open sourcing Kubernetes. Here's Hockin's explanation. >> When Docker landed, we saw the community building and building and building. I mean, that was a snowball of its own, right? And as it caught on we realized we know what this is going to we know once you embrace the Docker mindset that you very quickly need something to manage all of your Docker nodes, once you get beyond two or three of them, and we know how to build that, right? We got a ton of experience here. Like we went to our leadership and said, you know, please this is going to happen with us or without us. And I think it, the world would be better if we helped. >> So the open source strategy became more compelling as they studied the problem because it gave Google a way to neutralize AWS's advantage because with containers you could develop on AWS for example, and then run the application anywhere like Google's cloud. So it not only gave developers a path off of AWS. If Google could develop a strong service on GCP they could monetize that play. Now, focus your attention back to the diagram which shows this smiling, Alex Polvi from Core OS which was acquired by Red Hat in 2018. And he saw the need to bring Linux into the cloud. I mean, after all Linux was powering the internet it was the OS for enterprise apps. And he saw the need to extend its path into the cloud. Now here's how he described it at an OpenStack event in 2015. >> Similar to what happened with Linux. Like yes, there is still need for Linux and Windows and other OSs out there. But by and large on production, web infrastructure it's all Linux now. And you were able to get onto one stack. And how were you able to do that? It was, it was by having a truly open consistent API and a commitment into not breaking APIs and, so on. That allowed Linux to really become ubiquitous in the data center. Yes, there are other OSs, but Linux buy in large for production infrastructure, what is being used. And I think you'll see a similar phenomenon happen for this next level up cause we're treating the whole data center as a computer instead of trading one in visual instance is just the computer. And that's the stuff that Kubernetes to me and someone is doing. And I think there will be one that shakes out over time and we believe that'll be Kubernetes. >> So Alex saw the need for a dominant container orchestration platform. And you heard him, they made the right bet. It would be Kubernetes. Now Red Hat, Red Hat is been around since 1993. So it has a lot of on-prem. So it needed a future path to the cloud. So they rang up Google and said, hey. What do you guys have going on in this space? So Google, was kind of non-committal, but it did expose that they were thinking about doing something that was you know, pre Kubernetes. It was before it was called Kubernetes. But hey, we have this thing and we're thinking about open sourcing it, but Google's internal debates, and you know, some of the arm twisting from the engine engineers, it was taking too long. So Red Hat said, well, screw it. We got to move forward with OpenShift. So we'll do what Apple and Airbnb and Heroku are doing and we'll build on an alternative. And so they were ready to go with Mesos which was very much more sophisticated than Kubernetes at the time and much more mature, but then Google the last minute said, hey, let's do this. So Clayton Coleman with Red Hat, he was an architect. And he leaned in right away. He was one of the first outside committers outside of Google. But you still led these competing forces in the market. And internally there were debates. Do we go with simplicity or do we go with system scale? And Hen Goldberg from Google explains why they focus first on simplicity in getting that right. >> We had to defend of why we are only supporting 100 nodes in the first release of Kubernetes. And they explained that they know how to build for scale. They've done that. They know how to do it, but realistically most of users don't need large clusters. So why create this complexity? >> So Goldberg explains that rather than competing right away with say Mesos or Docker swarm, which were far more baked they made the bet to keep it simple and go for adoption and ubiquity, which obviously turned out to be the right choice. But the last piece of the puzzle was governance. Now Google promised to open source Kubernetes but when it started to open up to contributors outside of Google, the code was still controlled by Google and developers had to sign Google paper that said Google could still do whatever it wanted. It could sub license, et cetera. So Google had to pass the Baton to an independent entity and that's how CNCF was started. Kubernetes was its first project. And let's listen to Chris Aniszczyk of the CNCF explain >> CNCF is all about providing a neutral home for cloud native technology. And, you know, it's been about almost two years since our first board meeting. And the idea was, you know there's a certain set of technology out there, you know that are essentially microservice based that like live in containers that are essentially orchestrated by some process, right? That's essentially what we mean when we say cloud native right. And CNCF was seated with Kubernetes as its first project. And you know, as, as we've seen over the last couple years Kubernetes has grown, you know, quite well they have a large community a diverse con you know, contributor base and have done, you know, kind of extremely well. They're one of actually the fastest, you know highest velocity, open source projects out there, maybe. >> Okay. So this is how we got to where we are today. This ETR data shows container orchestration offerings. It's the same X Y graph that we showed earlier. And you can see where Kubernetes lands not we're standing that Kubernetes not a company but respondents, you know, they doing Kubernetes. They maybe don't know, you know, whose platform and it's hard with the ETR taxon economy as a fuzzy and survey data because Kubernetes is increasingly becoming embedded into cloud platforms. And IT pros, they may not even know which one specifically. And so the reason we've linked these two platforms Kubernetes and Red Hat OpenShift is because OpenShift right now is a dominant revenue player in the space and is increasingly popular PaaS layer. Yeah. You could download Kubernetes and do what you want with it. But if you're really building enterprise apps you're going to need support. And that's where OpenShift comes in. And there's not much data on this but we did find this chart from AMDA which show was the container software market, whatever that really is. And Red Hat has got 50% of it. This is revenue. And, you know, we know the muscle of IBM is behind OpenShift. So there's really not hard to believe. Now we've got some other data points that show how Kubernetes is becoming less visible and more embedded under of the hood. If you will, as this chart shows this is data from CNCF's annual survey they had 1800 respondents here, and the data showed that 79% of respondents use certified Kubernetes hosted platforms. Amazon elastic container service for Kubernetes was the most prominent 39% followed by Azure Kubernetes service at 23% in Azure AKS engine at 17%. With Google's GKE, Google Kubernetes engine behind those three. Now. You have to ask, okay, Google. Google's management Initially they had concerns. You know, why are we open sourcing such a key technology? And the premise was, it would level the playing field. And for sure it has, but you have to ask has it driven the monetization Google was after? And I would've to say no, it probably didn't. But think about where Google would've been. If it hadn't open source Kubernetes how relevant would it be in the cloud discussion. Despite its distant third position behind AWS and Microsoft or even fourth, if you include Alibaba without Kubernetes Google probably would be much less prominent or possibly even irrelevant in cloud, enterprise cloud. Okay. Let's wrap up with some comments on the state of Kubernetes and maybe a thought or two about, you know, where we're headed. So look, no shocker Kubernetes for all its improbable beginning has gone mainstream in the past year or so. We're seeing much more maturity and support for state full workloads and big ecosystem support with respect to better security and continued simplification. But you know, it's still pretty complex. It's getting better, but it's not VMware level of maturity. For example, of course. Now adoption has always been strong for Kubernetes, for cloud native companies who start with containers on day one, but we're seeing many more. IT organizations adopting Kubernetes as it matures. It's interesting, you know, Docker set out to be the system of the cloud and Kubernetes has really kind of become that. Docker desktop is where Docker's action really is. That's where Docker is thriving. It sold off Docker swarm to Mirantis has made some tweaks. Docker has made some tweaks to its licensing model to be able to continue to evolve its its business. To hear more about that at DockerCon. And as we said, years ago we expected Kubernetes to become less visible Stu Miniman and I talked about this in one of our predictions post and really become more embedded into other platforms. And that's exactly what's happening here but it's still complicated. Remember, remember the... Go back to the early and mid cycle of VMware understanding things like application performance you needed folks in lab coats to really remediate problems and dig in and peel the onion and scale the system you know, and in some ways you're seeing that dynamic repeated with Kubernetes, security performance scale recovery, when something goes wrong all are made more difficult by the rapid pace at which the ecosystem is evolving Kubernetes. But it's definitely headed in the right direction. So what's next for Kubernetes we would expect further simplification and you're going to see more abstractions. We live in this world of almost perpetual abstractions. Now, as Kubernetes improves support from multi cluster it will be begin to treat those clusters as a unified group. So kind of abstracting multiple clusters and treating them as, as one to be managed together. And this is going to create a lot of ecosystem focus on scaling globally. Okay, once you do that, you're going to have to worry about latency and then you're going to have to keep pace with security as you expand the, the threat area. And then of course recovery what happens when something goes wrong, more complexity, the harder it is to recover and that's going to require new services to share resources across clusters. So look for that. You also should expect more automation. It's going to be driven by the host cloud providers as Kubernetes supports more state full applications and begins to extend its cluster management. Cloud providers will inject as much automation as possible into the system. Now and finally, as these capabilities mature we would expect to see better support for data intensive workloads like, AI and Machine learning and inference. Schedule with these workloads becomes harder because they're so resource intensive and performance management becomes more complex. So that's going to have to evolve. I mean, frankly, many of the things that Kubernetes team way back when, you know they back burn it early on, for example, you saw in Docker swarm or Mesos they're going to start to enter the scene now with Kubernetes as they start to sort of prioritize some of those more complex functions. Now, the last thing I'll ask you to think about is what's next beyond Kubernetes, you know this isn't it right with serverless and IOT in the edge and new data, heavy workloads there's something that's going to disrupt Kubernetes. So in that, by the way, in that CNCF survey nearly 40% of respondents were using serverless and that's going to keep growing. So how is that going to change the development model? You know, Andy Jassy once famously said that if they had to start over with Amazon retail, they'd start with serverless. So let's keep an eye on the horizon to see what's coming next. All right, that's it for now. I want to thank my colleagues, Stephanie Chan who helped research this week's topics and Alex Myerson on the production team, who also manages the breaking analysis podcast, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on socials, so thanks to all of you. Remember these episodes, they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen, just search breaking analysis podcast. Don't forget to check out ETR website @etr.ai. We'll also publish. We publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and Silicon angle.com. You can get in touch with me, email me directly david.villane@Siliconangle.com or DM me at D Vollante. You can comment on our LinkedIn post. This is Dave Vollante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, everybody. Thanks for watching. Stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon brought to you by Redhat, a CloudNative computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, we are here in San Diego where we are keeping CloudNative classy. I'm Stu Miniman, and my cohost is John Troyer, and we are happy to welcome back to the program, our host, Dan Kohn, who is the executive director of the CloudNative computing foundation, or the CNCF. Dan, thank you so much for having us. >> Thrilled to be back again. >> All right, and, yeah, so our fourth year doing this show, the big shows-- >> Dan: Nothing's really changed. You just tear right along the same level. One year to the next, you can just confuse them pretty easily.. >> So, you know, Dan, we actually did a prediction show yesterday, and I said, maybe it's my math background, but I look back two years ago, it was four thousand, then eight thousand, now twelve thousand, so I predict Boston must be sixteen thousand because I was used to those standardized tests, but with the growth, you never know, and it is very difficult, you know, we talk about planning, we've talked, this facility was booked before-- >> Dan: Two years ago. >> --the curve really started taking off. So, help us set the stage a little bit, we're getting towards the end of the event, but you know, tons of day zero things, so many sessions, so many people, there were pre-show events I heard that started like the end of last week, so, it's a small city in this community in so many pieces, and the CNCF helps enable all of it. >> It does, and what's fun for us is just that, the community is out there adopting these technologies and contributing to it and growing, and being able to come together, this is always our biggest event in North America but also in Europe and China. It's just a really nice snapshot of the point of time, in saying, okay, where are things, how many companies are interested in having sponsor booths, how many developers are there, how many track, but, I think maybe my favorite anecdote from Kubecon CloudNativeCon San Diego is that there was a, so we offer, a CFP track, a call for proposals that's extremely competitive, only 12% of the talks get accepted. And then we have a maintainer track, where the different providers can have either an intro, a deep-dive, or both. So the deep dive for the project Helm, which is not even a graduated project yet, I mean, it's very widely used, package manager for Kubernetes, but the deep dive for Helm had more than 1600 people inside their session, which is more than we had at all of attending Kubecon 2015 and 2016 combined. >> So, Dan, one of the words that gets mentioned a lot in this space, and it has lots of different meanings, is "scale". You know, we talk about Kubernetes built for big scale, we're talking about Edge computing which goes to small scale. This event, you look at the ecosystem. There's a thirty foot banner with all of the logos there, you look at the landscape-- >> Dan: They're not that big, either. >> --there are so many logos on there. Actually, I really thought you had an enjoyable yet useful analogy in your opening keynote. You talk about Minecraft. I've got a boy, he plays Xbox, I've seen Minecraft, so when he pulls up the little chart and there's like, you know, all of these little things on the side, my son can tell you how they're used and what you can build with them, I would be completely daunted looking at that, much like many of the people coming to this show, and they look around and they're like, I don't even know where to start. >> And that was fun keynote for me to put together, because I did need to make sure, both on the Minecraft part, that all the formulas were correct, I didn't want anyone... But then I drew the analogy to Kubernetes and how it is based on a set of building blocks, hundreds of them, that have evolved over time, and for that, I actually did some software archeology of reaching out to the people who created the original IPFW, Linux firewall 20 years ago based on PSD and then the evolution since then, made sure that they were comfortable with my description of it. But now, bringing it out to Kubecon, CNCF, we have a lot of projects now, so we're up to 43. When we met in Seattle four years ago, it was 2. And so it's definitely incumbent on CNCF to do a good job, and we can probably do an even better one on trying to draw this trail map, this recommended path through understanding the technologies, deciding on which ones people might want to adopt. >> Yeah, I think that would be really interesting. In fact, the words trail map kind of came up on Twitter, today, I saw. And one of the things that struck me was how the first rule of Kubecon is, well, Kubernetes is not maybe in the center of everything, it's underneath everything, but, like you said, 42 projects in the CNCF, many more projects, open-source projects, of course, from different vendors, from different coalitions, that you can see here on the show floor as well, if not in a session, so, without giving a maybe a CNCF 101, what does the path forward look like in terms of that, the growth of projects within the CNCF umbrella, the prominence of Kubecon, are we headed towards CloudNativeCon? >> Well, we've always been calling it Kubecon CloudNativeCon, and we could reverse the names, but I don't see any particular drive to do that. But I would really emphasize, and give credit to Craig McLuckie and some of the other people who originally set up CNCF, where Google had this technology, if they'd come to the Linux Foundation and said, we want to call it the Kubernetes Foundation, we probably would've said yes to that. But the impact, then, would be that all of these other technologies and approaches would have come in and said, we need to become part of the Kubernetes project, and instead, there was a vision of an ecosystem, and the reality is that Kubernetes is still by far the largest project. I mean, if you look at the total number of contributors, I believe it's approximately the same between Kubernetes and our other 42 projects combined. So, and of course, there's overlap. But in that sense, in some ways, Kubernetes sort of represents the sun, and the other projects are orbiting around it, but from the beginning, the whole idea was to say that we wanted to allow a diversity of different approaches, and CNCF has had this very clear philosophy that we're not king makers, that if you look at our landscape document, where we look at different functions like key management or container run times or databases or others, there can be multiple CNCF hosted projects in each box. And so far at least, that approach seems to be working quite well. >> Yeah, Dan, having been to a number of these, the maturity and progress is obvious. Something we've said is Kubernetes is really table sticks at this point, no matter where I go, there is going to be Kubernetes, and therefore, I've seen it some over the last year or so, but very prominent on this show, we're talking about work loads, we're talking about applications, you know, it's defining and explaining that CloudNative piece of it, and the tough thing is, you know, modern applications and building applications and that AppDev community. So, you know, speak a little bit-- You've got a very diverse audience here, talk about the personas you have to communicate with, and who you're attracting to this. I know they put out lots of metrics as to the surveys and who's coming and who's participating. >> Well, we do, and we'll be publishing those, and I love the fact. I think some people misunderstand in the thinking that Kubecon CloudNativeCon is all infrastructure engineers, and something like a third or more of the attendees are application developers, and so I do think there's this natural move, particularly towards AppDev. The difference is that on the infrastructure side, there's just a really strong consensus about Kubernetes, as you're saying, where on the application development side, it's still very early days. And I mean, if anything, I think really the only area that there is consensus on is that the abstractions that Kubernetes provides are not the ones that we want to have regular application developers at most enterprises working with, that they shouldn't actually need to build their own container and then write the YAML in order to configure it. Brian Liles hit that point nicely with his keynote today around Rails. But so we can agree that what we have isn't the right outcome, we can agree that whatever are the winning solutions are very likely underneath going to be building those containers and writing the YAML. But there are so many different approaches right now, at a high layer on what that right interface is. >> Yeah, I mean, just, one example I have, I had the opportunity to interview Bloomberg for the second time. And a year ago, we had talked very much about the infrastructure, and this year we talked about really, they've built internally that PaaS layer, so that their AppDevs, they might know that there's Kubernetes, but they don't have to interface with that at all. I've had a number of the CNCF end user members participate, maybe, speak to that, the community of end users participating, and end user usage overall. >> Yeah, so when we first met in Seattle four years ago, we had three members of our end user community. We appreciated them joining early, but that was a tough call. But to be up to 124 now, representing almost every industry, all around the world, just a huge number of brand names, has been fantastic. What is interesting is, if you go talk to them, almost all of them are using Kubernetes as the underlying layer for their own internal PaaS, and so the regular developers in their organizations can often just want to type get push, and then have the continuous integration run and the things built and then deployed out and everything. But it's somewhat surprising there hasn't yet been a level of consensus on what that sort of common PaaS, the common set of abstractions on top should be. There's a ton of our members and developers and others are all working to sort of build that winning solution, but I don't have a prediction for you yet. >> And of course, skill interoperability and skill transferability is going to be key in growing this ecosystem, but I thought the stats on you know, the searches you can do on the number of job openings for Kubernetes is incredible. >> Yeah, so on the interoperability, we were very pleased to announce Tuesday that we've now passed 100 certified vendors, and of all the things that CNCF does, probably even including Kubecon, I might say that that certified Kubernetes program is the one that's had the biggest impact. To have implementations from over 100 different organizations that you can take the same workloads and move them across and have the confidence, those APIs will be supported, it's just a huge accomplishment, and in some ways, up there with WiFi or Bluetooth or some of the best interoperability standards. And then you mentioned the job support, which is another-- >> Yeah, I want to transfer engineers too, as well as workloads. >> --area that we're thrilled, and we just launched that, but we now have a couple hundred jobs listed on it and a bunch of people applying, and it's just a perfect example of the kind of ecosystem development that we're thrilled to do, and in particular the fact that we're not charging either the employers or the applicants, so it's jobs.CNCF.io to get access to that. >> Great. Dan, you also mentioned in your keynote, Kubernetes has crossed the chasm. That changes the challenges that you have when you start talking about you know, the early or mid majority environment, so I know you've been flying around the globe, there's not only the three big events, but many small events, talk about how CNCF6 mission helps you know, educate and push, I guess not push, but educate and further innovation. >> Yeah, and just enable. So, one of the other programs we have is the Kubernetes Certified service provider, these are organizations, essentially consulting firms, that have a deep expertise that have had at least three of their engineers pass our certified Kubernetes administrator exam, and it is amazing now that we've passed 100 of those, but they're in over 30 different countries. So we're just thrilled to see businesses all around the world be able to take advantage of that. And I do get to go to a lot of events around the world; we're actually, CNCF is hosting our first ever events in Seoul and in Sydney in two weeks, that I'm quite excited for, and then in February, we're going to be back in India, and we're going to be in Bengaluru, where we had a very successful event in March. We'll be there in February 2020 and then our first one in New Delhi, those are both in the third week of February. And I think it does just speak to the number of people who are really eager for these to soak this up, but one of the cool things about it is we're combining both local experts, half of our speakers are local, half are international, and then we do a beginner track and an advanced track. >> Yeah, Dan, you know, I'd just love a little bit of insight from you as to, there's a little bit of uncontrolled chaos when you talk about open source. Many of the things that we're talking about this year, a year ago, we would've been, oh my gosh, I would've never thought of that. So give us what it's like to be kind of at the eye of the hurricane, if you would. >> A lot of criticism, to be honest. An amazing number of people like to point out the things that we're not quite doing correctly. But you know, the huge challenge for an organization like CNCF, where, we're a non-profit, these events are actually spinning off money that we're then able to reinvest directly into the projects, so doing things like a quarter million dollars for a security audit for Kubernetes that we were able to publish. Or a Jepson testing for NCD, or improving documentation and such. So a big part of it is trying to create those positive feedback loops, and have that, and then another huge part is just, given all the different competing interests and the fact that we literally have every big technology company in the world on our board and then all of the, I mean, hundreds of start ups that tend to be very competitive, it's just really important that we treat organizations similarly. So that all of our platinum members are treated the same, all our gold, all our silver, and then within the projects, that all the graduated projects are treated similarly, incubating, sandbox, and people really notice. I have kids, and it's a little bit there, where they're sort of always believing that the other kid is getting extra attention. >> Yeah, right, you can't be the king maker, if it will, you're letting it out. Look out a little bit, Dan, and you know, we still have more growth to go in the community, obviously the event has room for growth. What do you see looking forward to 2020 and beyond? >> Yeah, I would love to predict some sort of amazing discontinuity where everyone adopts these technologies and then CNCF is not necessary anymore, something like that. But the reality is, I mean, I love that crossing the chasm metaphor, and I do think it's very powerful, and we really do say 2018 was the year that Kubernetes crossed the chasm from the early adopters to the early majority, but I would emphasize the fact that it's only the early majority. We haven't reached in to the entire second half of the curve, the late majority and the laggards. And so there are a ton of organizations here at the event who are just getting up to speed on this and realizing, oh, we really need to invest and start understanding it. And so, I mean, I don't, we also talk about there will be some point of peak Kubecon, just like peak Loyal, and I don't yet see any signs of it being 2019 or 2020, but it's something that we're very cognizant of and working hard to try and ensure that the event remains useful for people and that they're seeing value from it. I mean, there was a real question when we went from one thousand Seattle four years ago to four thousand in Austin three years ago, oh, is this event even still useful, can developers still interact, do you still have conversations, is the hallway track still valuable? And thankfully, I'm able to chat with a lot of the core developers, where this is their fifth North American Kubecon and they're saying, no, I'm still getting value out of it. Now, what we tend to hear from them is, "but I didn't get to go to any sessions," or "I have so many hallway tracks and private meetings and interactions and such," but the great thing there is that we actually get all of these sessions up on YouTube within 48 or 72 hours, and so, people ask me, "oh, there's 18 different tracks, how do I decide which one to go to?" And I always say, "go to the one where you want to interact with the speaker afterwards, or ask a question," because the other ones, you can watch later. But there isn't really a substitute for being here on the ground. >> Well, there's so much content there, Dan, I think if they start watching now, by the time you get to Amsterdam, they'll have dented a little bit. >> I'll give a quick pitch for my favorite Chrome extension, it's called Video Speed Player. And you can speed people up to 120, 125%, get a little bit of that time back. >> Yeah, absolutely, we have at the backend of ours, there is YouTube, so you can adjust the speed and it does help most of the time, and you can back up a few seconds if needed. Dan, look, congratulations, we know you have a tough role, you and the CNCF, we really appreciate the partnership. We love our community, it has had a phenomenal time this week at the show, and look forward to 2020 and beyond. >> I do as well, I really want to thank you for being with us through this whole way, and I think it is just an important part of the ecosystem. >> And I know John Furrier also says thank you and looks forward to seeing you next year. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Dan, thank you so much. John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, getting towards the end of our three days, wall-to-wall coverage here in sunny San Diego, California, thanks for watching theCUBE.

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCUBE's fourth year of coverage at KubeCon CloudNativeCon, we're here in San Diego, it's 2019, I'm Stu Miniman, my host for this afternoon is Justin Warren, and happy to welcome two guests from the newly minted platinum member of the CNCF, NetApp, sitting to my right is Matt Baldwin, who is the director of cloud native and Kubernetes engineering, and sitting to his right is Rob Esker, who does product and strategy for Kubernetes, and is also a forward member on the CNCF, thank you both for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> All right, so Matt, maybe start with you, NetApp, companies that know, I've got plenty of history with NetApp there, what I've been hearing from NetApp for the last few years is, the core of NetApp has always been software, and it is a multicloud world. I've been hearing this message since before the cloud native and Kubernetes piece was going. Of course there's been some acquisitions, and NetApp continuing to go through its transformations, if you will. So help us understand NetApp's positioning in this ecosystem. >> In Kubernetes? >> Yes. >> Okay, so, what we're doing is, we're building a product that allows you to manage cloud-native workloads on top of Kubernetes, so we've solved the infrastructure problem, and that's kind of the old problem we're bored to death talking about that problem, but what we try to do is try to provide a single pane of glass to manage on-premise workloads and off-premise workloads, and so that's what we're trying to do, we're trying to say, it's now more about the app taxonomy in Kubernetes, and then what type of tooling do you build to manage that application in Kubernetes, and so that's what we're building right now, that's where we're headed with the hybrid multicloud. >> There's a piece of it, though, that does draw from the historical strengths of NetApp, of course. So we're building, we are essentially already in market a capability that allows you to deploy Kubernetes, in an agnostic way, using pure open unmodified Kubernetes, on all of the major public clouds, but also on-prem. But over time, and some of this is already evident, you'll see it married to the storage and data management capabilities that we draw from the historical NetApp, and that we're starting to deploy into those public clouds. >> With the idea that you should be able to take a project, so a project being in a namespace, namespace having an application in it, so you have multiple deployments, I should be able to protect that namespace, or that project, I should be able to move that, and that data goes with it, so that we're very data-aware, that's what we're trying to do with our software is, make it very data-aware and have that align with apps inside of Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so Rob, maybe step back for a second, one of the things we've heard a few times at this show before, and it was talked about in the keynote this morning, is that it is project over company when it comes to the CNCF. Project over company, so it's about the ecosystem, the CNCF tries not to be opinionated, so it's okay for multiple projects to fit in a space. NetApp moving up to a platinum sponsor level, participated here, NetApp's got lots of histories in participating and driving standards, helping move where the industry's going, where does NetApp see its position in participating in the foundation and participating in this ecosystem? >> Yeah, so great question, and actually, I love it, it's one of my favorite topics, so, I think the way we look at it is, oftentimes projects, to the extent they become ubiquitous, define a standard, a defacto standard, so not necessarily ratified by some standards body, and so we're very interested in making sure that in the scenario where you want to employ this standard, from a technology integration perspective, our capabilities can operate as an implementation behind the standard. So you get the distinguishing qualities of our capabilities, our products and our services, vis-a-vis, or in the context of the standard, but we're not trying to take you down a walled garden path in a proprietary journey, if you will. We would rather compel you to work with us on the basis of the value, not necessarily operating off a proprietary set of interfaces. So Kubernetes, broadly perceive it as a defacto standard at this point, there's still some work to be done on rounding out the edges, a lot of it underway this week, it's definitely the case that there's an appeal to making this more offerable by, pardon the expression, mere mortals, and we think we can offer some help in that respect as well. >> Yeah, where is its usability? I mean, that's the reason I started stacked on cloud, was that there was a usability problem with Kubernetes. I had a usability problem with Kubernetes. That's what we're trying, that's how I'm looking at the landscape, and I look at all the projects inside of the CNCF, and I look at my role is, our role is to, how do we tie these together, how do we make these so they're very very usable to the users, and how we're engaging with the community is to try to align this, basically pure upstream projects, and create a usability layer on top of that. But we're not going to, we don't want to ever say we're going to fork any of these projects, but we're going to contribute back into these projects. >> So that's one concern that I have heard from some customers, which speaking of which, some of them yesterday, one of the concerns they had was that, when you add that manageability onto the base Kubernetes layer, that often, various vendors become rather opinionated about which way we think this is a good way to do that, and when you're trying to maintain that compatibility across the ecosystem, so some customers say, "Well I actually don't want to have to be too closely welded "to any one vendor, 'cause part of the benefit "of Kubernetes is I can move my workloads around." So how do you navigate what is the right level of opinion to have, and which part should actually just be part of a common standard? >> Think it needs to be along the lines of best practices, is how we do it. So, let's take network policy, for example, applying a sane, default network policy to every namespace. Defining a sane, default pod security policy, building a cluster in a best practices fashion, with security turned on, hardening done, where you would've done this already as a user, so we're not locking you in in any way there. So that's, we're not trying, I'm not trying to curate any type of opinion of the product, what we're trying to do is harmonize your experience across all this ecosystem, so that you don't ever have to think about, "I'm building a cluster on top of Amazon, "so I got to worry about how do I manage this on Amazon." I don't want you to have to think about those providers anymore. And then on top of those, on top of that infrastructure, I want to have a way that you're thinking about managing the applications on those environments in the exact same way, so I'm scaling, or I'm protecting an application on-premise, in the identical way I'm doing it in the cloud. >> So if it's the same everywhere, what's the value that you're providing that means that I should choose your option than something else? >> So, we do have, this is where we have controllers that live inside of the clusters, that manage this stuff for the users. So, you could rebuild what we're doing, but you would have to roll it all by hand. But you could, we don't stand in the way of your operations either, so if we go down, you don't go down, type of idea. But we do have controllers, we're using CRDs, and so our app management technology, our controllers are just watching for a workload to come into the environment, and then we show that in the interface, but you can just walk away as well, if you wanted to. >> There's also a constellation of other services that we're building around, this experience, that do draw, again, from some of the storage and data management capabilities, so staple sets, your traditional workloads that want to interact with or transact data against a block or a shared file system. We're providing capabilities for sophisticated qualities of persistence that can exist in all of those same public clouds, but moreover, over time, we're going to be, and on-premise as well, we're going to be able to actually move, migrate, place, cache, per policy, your persistent data, with your workloads, as you move, migrate, scale, burst, whatever the model is, as you move across and between clouds. >> How far down that pathway do you think we are, 'cause one criticism of Kubernetes is that a lot of the tooling that we're used to from more traditional ways of operating this kind of infrastructure, isn't really there yet, hence the question about, we actually need to make this easier to use. How far down that pathway are we? >> I'd argue that the tooling that I've built has already solved some of those problems. So I think we're pretty far down the path. Now, what we haven't done is open sourced all of my tooling, right, to make it easier on everybody else. >> Rob, NetApp's got strong partnerships across the cloud platforms, I had a chance to interview George at the Google Cloud event, I know you partner of the year, I believe, on some of these stuff, help us understand how some of the things Matt and the team are building interact with the public clouds, you look at Anthos, and Azure Arc, and of course Amazon has many different ways you can do your container and management piece there. Talk a little bit about that relationship and how, both with those partners and then across those partners, work. >> Yeah, it's, how much time do we have, so there's certainly a lot of facets to that, but drawing from the Google experience, we just announced the general availability of Cloud Volumes ONTAP, so the ability to stand up and manage your own ONTAP instance in Google's cloud. Likewise, we announced the general availability of the Cloud Volume service, which gives you the managed push button as a service experience of shared file system on demand, at Google, I believe it was either today or yesterday, in London, I guess maybe I'll blame that on the time zone conversion, not knowing what day it was, but the point is, that's now generally available. Some of those capabilities are going to be able to be connected to our ability from MKS, to deploy a on-demand Kubernetes cluster, and deploy applications from a marketplace experience, in a common way, not just with Google but Azure, with Amazon, and so frankly the story does differ a little bit from one cloud to the next, but the endeavor is to provide common capabilities across all of them. It's also the case that we do have people that are very opinionated about, I want to live only in the Google or the Microsoft or the Amazon ecosystem, we're trying to deliver a rich experience for those folks as well, even if you don't value the agnostic multicloud experience. >> Yeah, and Matt, I'm sure you have a viewpoint on this, but it's that skillset that's really challenging. I was at the Microsoft show, and you've got people, it's not just about .NET, they're embracing and open to all of these environments, but people tend to have the environments that they're used to, and for multicloud to be a reality, it needs to be a little bit easier for me to go between them, but it's still, we're making progress but there's work to do. >> Matt: Yeah, what's the question? >> Yeah, so, I know you're building tools and everything, but what more do we need to do, where are some of the areas that you're hopeful for, but where are the areas that we need to go further? >> So for me it's coming down to the data side. I need to be able to say that, when I turn on data services, inside of Kubernetes, I need to be able to have that workload go anywhere, because as a developer, I'm running a production, I'm running an Amazon, but maybe I'm doing tests locally on my bare metal environments, right, I want to be able to maybe sink down some of my data that I'm working with in production down to my test environment. That stuff's missing, there's no one doing that right now, and that's where we're headed, that's the path, that's where we're headed. >> Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, actually, 'cause one of the things that I feel like I heard a little bit last year but it is highlighted more this year, is we're talking a little bit more to the application developers because, Kubernetes is a piece of the infrastructure, but it's about-- >> It's the kernel. >> Yeah, it's the kernel there, so, how do we make sure we're spanning between what the app developer needs and still making sure that infrastructure is taken care of, because storage and networking are still hard. >> It is, yeah, I mean I'm approaching, I'm thinking more along the lines of, I'm trying to think more about app developers, personally, than infrastructure at this point. For me, so I can give you a cluster in three minutes, right, so I don't really have to worry about that problem. We also put Istio on top of the clusters, so it's like we're trying to create this whole narrative that you can manage that environment on day one, day two type operations. But, and that's for an IT manager, right, so inside of our product, how I'm addressing this is you have personas, and so you have this concept, you have an IT manager, they can do these things, they can set limits, but for the developer, who's building the applications or the services and pushing those up into the environment, they need to have a sense of freedom, and so on that side of the house, I'm trying not to break them out of their tooling, so part of our product ties into Git, so we have cd, so you just do a git push, git commit to a branch, and we can target multiple clusters. But at no point did the developer actually draft DAML, or anything, we basically create the container for you, create the deployment, bring it online, and I feel like there's these lines, and the IT guys need to be able to say, "I need to create the guardrails for the devs, "but I don't want to make it seem like "I'm creating guardrails for the devs, "'cause the devs don't like that." So that's how I'm balancing it. >> Okay, 'cause that has always been the tension, in that there's a lot of talk about DevOps, but you go and talk to application developers, and they don't want to have anything to do with infrastructure, they just want to program to an API and get things done, they would like this infrastructure to be seamless. >> Yeah, and what we do, also what I'm giving them is service dashboards, because as a developer, you know, because now you're in charge of your QA, you're writing your tests, you're pushing it through CI, it's going to CD. You own your service and production, right? And so we're delivering dashboards as well for services that the developers are running, so they can dig in and say, "Oh, here's an issue," or "Here's where the issue's probably going to be at, "I'm going to go fix this." And we're trying to create that type of scenario for a developer, and for an IT manager. >> Slightly different angle on it, if I'm understanding the question correctly, part of the complexity of infrastructure is something we're also trying to provide a deterministic sort of easy button capability for, perhaps you're familiar with NetApp's Nason ATI product, which we kind of expand that as hybrid cloud infrastructure. If the intention is to make it a simple, private cloud capability, and indeed, our NetApp Kubernetes service operates directly off of it, it's a big part of actually how we deliver cloud services from it. So the point is that, if you're that application developer, if you want the effective NKS on-prem, the endeavor with our NetApp ATI product is to give you that sort of easy button experience, because you didn't really want to be a storage admin or a network admin, you didn't want to get into the, be mired in the details of infra, so that's obviously work in progress, but we think we're definitely headed down the right direction. >> It does seem that a lot of enterprises want to have the cloudlike experience, but they want to be able to bring it home, we're seeing that a lot more. >> Yeah, so this turnkey on-premise, turnkey cloud on-premise, and, with NKS we can, the same auto-scaling, so take the dynamic nature of Kubernetes, so I have a base cluster size of say four worker nodes, right, but my workload's going to maybe need to have more nodes, so my auto-scaler's going to increase the size of my cluster and decrease the size, right? Pretty much everybody only can do that in the public cloud. I can do that in public cloud and on-premise, now. And so that's what we're trying to deliver, and that's pretty cool stuff, I think. >> Well there's a lot of advantages to enterprises operating in that way, because people out here, I can go and buy them or hire them, and say "Hey, we need you to operate this gear," and you've already done it elsewhere, you can do it in cloud, you can do it on-site, I can now run my operations the same across, no matter where my applications live, which saves me a lot of money on training costs, on development costs, and generally it makes for a much more smooth and seamless experience. >> So Rob, if you could, just love your takeaway on NetApp's participation here at the event, and what you want people to take away from the show this year. >> So it's certainly the case that we're doing a lot of great work, we like people to become aware of it. NetApp of course is not, I think we talked about this in perhaps other contexts, not strictly a storage and data management company only. We do draw from the strengths of that as we're providing full stack capabilities, in a way that are interconnected with public cloud, things like our NetApp Kubernetes service as really the foundational glue in many ways, to how we deliver the application runtime, but over time we'll build a constellation of data-centric capabilities around that as well. >> Matt, I would just love to get your viewpoint as someone that built a company in this ecosystem, there's so many startups here, give us kind of that founder viewpoint of being in this sort of ecosystem. >> Of the ecosystem... So this is, I came into the ecosystem at the beginning. I would have to say that it does feel different at this point, I'm going to speak as Matt, not as NetApp. And so my thinking has always been it feels a lot like, you're a big fan of that rock band, right, and you go to a local club, and we all get to know each other at that local club, and there's maybe 500 of us or 1000 of us, and then that band gets signed to Warner Brothers, and goes to the top, and now there's 20,000 people or 12,000 people. That's how it feels to me right now. I think, but what I like about it is that, it just shows the power of the community is now at a point where it's drawing in cities now, not just a small collection of a tribe of people. And I think that's a very powerful thing with this community, and like all the, what are they called, the Kubernetes Summits that they're doing, we didn't have any of those back when we first got going, I mean it was tough to fill the room, and now we can fill the room, and it's amazing, and what I like seeing is people moving past the problem of Kubernetes itself, and moving into what other problems can I solve on top of Kubernetes, so you're starting to see all these really exciting startups doing really neat things, and I really like, like this vendor hall I really like, 'cause you get to see all the new guys, but there's a lot of neat stuff going on, and I'm excited to see where the community goes in the next five years, but it's, we've gone from zero to 60 insanely fast, 'cause you guys were at the original KubeCon, I think, as well. >> It's our fourth year doing theCUBE at this show, but absolutely, we've watched it since the early days. I'm not supposed to mention OpenStack at this show, but we remember talking to JJ and some of the early people there, and we interviewed Craig McLuckie back in his Google days, and the like, so we've been fortunate to be on here since really day zero here, and definitely great energy, congrats so much on the progress, I really appreciate the updates on everything going, as you said, we've reached a certain state, and adding more value on top of this whole environment. >> Yeah, we're in junior high now, right, and we were in grade school for a few years. >> All right, well Matt and Rob, thank you so much for the update, hopefully not an awkward dance tonight for the junior people. For Justin Warren, I'm Stu Miniman, back with more coverage here from KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego. Thank you for watching theCUBE. (techno music)

(bright music) >> Hey welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE We are high atop San Francisco in the Sales Force Tower in the new Accenture offices, it's really beautiful and as part of that, they have their San Francisco Innovation Hubs. So it's five floors of maker's labs, and 3D printing, and all kinds of test facilities and best practices, innovation theater, and this studio which is really fun to be at. So we're talking about hybrid cloud and the development of cloud and multi-cloud and continuing on this path. Not only are customers on this path, but everyone is kind of on this path as things kind of evolve and transform. We are excited to have a couple of experts in the field we've got Larry Socher, he's the Global Managing Director of Intelligent Cloud Infrastructure Services growth and strategy at Accenture. Larry, great to see you again. >> Great to be here, Jeff. And Ajay Patel, he's the Senior Vice President and General Manager at Cloud Provider Software Business Unit at VMWare and a theCUBE alumni as well. >> Excited to be here, thank you for inviting me. >> So, first off, how do you like the digs up here? >> Beautiful place, and the fact we're part of the innovation team, thank you for that. >> So let's just dive into it. So a lot of crazy stuff happening in the marketplace. Lot of conversations about hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, different cloud, public cloud, movement of back and forth from cloud. Just want to get your perspective today. You guys have been in the middle of this for a while. Where are we in this kind of evolution? Everybody's still kind of feeling themselves out, is it, we're kind of past the first inning so now things are settling down? How do you kind of view the evolution of this market? >> Great question and I think Pat does a really nice job of defining the two definitions. What's hybrid versus multi? And simply put, we look at hybrid as when you have consistent infrastructure. It's the same infrastructure regardless of location. Multi is when you have disparate infrastructure, but are using them in a collective. So just from a from a level setting perspective, the taxonomy is starting to get standardized. Industry is starting to recognize hybrid is the reality. It's not a step in the long journey. It is an operating model that going to exist for a long time. So it's not about location. It's about how do you operate in a multi-cloud and a hybrid cloud world. And together at Accenture VMware have a unique opportunity. Also, the technology provider, Accenture, as a top leader in helping customers figure out where best to land their workload in this hybrid, multi-cloud world. Because workloads are driving decisions. >> Jeff: Right. >> We are going to be in this hybrid, multi-cloud world for many years to come. >> Do I need another layer of abstraction? 'Cause I probably have some stuff that's in hybrid and I probably have some stuff in multi, right? 'Cause those are probably not mutually exclusive, either. >> We talked a lot about this, Larry and I were chatting as well about this. And the reality is the reason you choose a specific cloud, is for those native differentiator capability. So abstraction should be just enough so you can make workloads portable. To be able to use the capability as natively as possible. And by fact that we now at VMware have a native VMware running on every major hyperscaler and on pram, gives you that flexibility you want of not having to abstract away the goodness of the cloud while having a common and consistent infrastructure while tapping into the innovations that the public cloud brings. So, it is the evolution of what we've been doing together from a private cloud perspective to extend that beyond the data center, to really make it an operating model that's independent of location. >> Right, so Larry, I'm curious your perspective when you work with customers, how do you help them frame this? I mean I always feel so sorry for corporate CIAOs. I mean they got security going on like crazy, they go GDPR now I think, right? The California regs that'll probably go national. They have so many things to be worried about. They go to keep up on the latest technology, what's happening in containers. I thought it was doc, now you tell me it's Kubernetes. It's really tough. So how do you help them kind of, put a wrapper around it? >> It's got to start with the application. I mean you look at cloud, you look at infrastructure more broadly I mean. It's there to serve the applications and it's the applications that really drive business value. So I think the starting point has to be application led. So we start off, we have our intelligent engineering guys, our platform guys, who really come in and look and do an application modernization strategy. So they'll do an assessment, you know, most of our clients given their scale and complexity usually have from 500 to 20,000 applications. You know, very large estates. And you got to start to figure out okay what's my current applications? A lot of times they'll use the six Rs methodology and they say hey okay what is it? I'm going to retire this, I no longer need it. It no longer has business value. Or I'm going to replace this with SaaS. I move it to sales force for example, or service now, etcetera . Then they're going to start to look at their workloads and say okay, hey, do I need to re-fact of reformat this. Or re-host it. And one of the things obviously, VMware has done a fantastic job is allowing you to re-host it using their software to find data center, you know, in the hyperscaler's environment. >> We call it just, you know, migrate and then modernize. >> Yeah, exactly. But the modernized can't be missed. I think that's where a lot of times we see clients kind of get in the trap, hey, i'm just going to migrate and then figure it out. You need to start to have a modernization strategy and then, 'cause that's ultimately going to dictate your multi and your hybrid cloud approach, is how those apps evolve and you know the dispositions of those apps to figure out do they get replaced. What data sets need to be adjacent to each other? >> Right, so Ajay, you know we were there when Pat was with Andy and talking about VMware on AWS. And then, you know, Sanjay is showing up at everybody else's conference. He's at Google Cloud talking about VMware on Google Cloud. I'm sure there was a Microsoft show I probably missed you guys were probably there, too. You know, it's kind of interesting, right, from the outside looking in, you guys are not a public cloud, per se, and yet you've come up with this great strategy to give customers the options to adopt VMware in a public cloud and then now we're seeing where even the public cloud providers are saying, "Here, stick this box in your data center". It's like this little piece of our cloud floating around in your data center. So talk about the evolution of the strategy, and kind of what you guys are thinking about 'cause you know you are clearly in a leadership position making a lot of interesting acquisitions. How are you guys see this evolving and how are you placing your bets? >> You know Pat has been always consistent about this and any strategy. Whether it's any cloud or any device. Any workload, if you will, or application. And as we started to think about it, one of the big things we focused on was meeting the customer where he was at in his journey. Depending on the customer, they may simply be trying to figure out working out to get on a data center. All the way, to how to drive an individual transformation effort. And a partner like Accenture, who has the breadth and depth and sometimes the vertical expertise and the insight. That's what customers are looking for. Help me figure out in my journey, first tell me where I'm at, where am I going, and how I make that happen. And what we've done in a clever way in many ways is, we've created the market. We've demonstrated that VMware is the only, consistent infrastructure that you can bet on and leverage the benefits of the private or public cloud. And I often say hybrid's a two-way street now. Which is they are bringing more and more hybrid cloud services on pram. And where is the on pram? It's now the edge. I was talking to the Accenture folks and they were saying the metro edge, right? So you're starting to see the workloads And I think you said almost 40 plus percent of future workloads are now going to be in the central cloud. >> Yeah, and actually there's an interesting stat out there. By 2022, seventy percent of data will be produced and processed outside the cloud. So I mean the edge is about to, as we are on the tipping point of IOT finally taking off beyond smart meters. We're going to see a huge amount of data proliferate out there. So the lines between between public and private have becoming so blurry. You can outpost, you look at, Antheos, Azure Stack for ages. And that's where I think VMware's strategy is coming to fruition. You know they've-- >> Sometimes it's great when you have a point of view and you stick with it against the conventional wisdom. And then all of a sudden everyone is following the herd and you are like, "This is great". >> By the way, Anjay hit on a point about the verticalization. Every one of our clients, different industries have very different paths there. And to the meaning that the customer where they're on their journey. I mean if you talk to a pharmaceutical, you know, GXP compliance, big private cloud, starting to dip their toes into public. You go to Mians and they've been very aggressive public. >> Or in manufacturing with Edge Cloud. >> Exactly. >> So it really varies by industry. >> And that's a very interesting area. Like if you look at all the OT environments of the manufacturing. We start to see a lot of end of life of environments. So what's that next generation of control systems going to run on? >> So that's interesting on the edge because and you've brought up networking a couple times while we've been talking as a potential gate, right, when one of them still in the gates, but we're seeing more and more. We were at a cool event, Churchill Club when they had psy links, micron, and arm talking about shifting more of the compute and store on these edge devices to accommodate, which you said, how much of that stuff can you do at the edge versus putting in? But what I think is interesting is, how are you going to manage that? There is a whole different level of management complexity when now you've got this different level of distributing computing. >> And security. >> And security. Times many, many thousands of these devices all over the place. >> You might have heard recent announcements from VMware around the Carbon Black acquisition. >> Yeah. >> That combined with our workspace one and the pulse IOT, we are now giving you the management framework whether it's for people, for things, or devices. And that consistent security on the client, tied with our network security with NSX all the way to the data center security. We're starting to look at what we call intrinsic security. How do we bake security into the platform and start solving these end to end? And have our partner, Accenture, help design these next generation application architectures, all distributed by design. Where do you put a fence? You could put a fence around your data center but your app is using service now and other SaaS services. So how do you set up an application boundary? And the security model around that? So it's really interesting times. >> You hear a lot about our partnership around software defined data center, around networking. With Villo and NSX. But we've actually been spending a lot of time with the IOT team and really looking and a lot of our vision aligns. Actually looking at they've been working with similar age in technology with Liota where, ultimately the edge computing for IOT is going to have to be containerized. Because you're going to need multiple modalware stacks, supporting different vertical applications. We were actually working with one mind where we started off doing video analytics for predictive maintenance on tires for tractors which are really expensive the shovels, et cetera. We started off pushing the data stream, the video stream, up into Azure but the network became a bottleneck. We couldn't get the modality. So we got a process there. They're now looking into autonomous vehicles which need eight megabits load latency band width sitting at the edge. Those two applications will need to co-exist and while we may have Azure Edge running in a container down doing the video analytics, if Caterpillar chooses Green Grass or Jasper, that's going to have to co-exist. So you're going to see the whole containerization that we are starting to see in the data center, is going to push out there. And the other side, Pulse, the management of the Edge, is going to be very difficult. >> I think the whole new frontier. >> Yeah absolutely. >> That's moving forward and with 5G IntelliCorp. They're trying to provide value added services. So what does that mean from an infrastructure perspective? >> Right, right. >> When do you stay on the 5G radio network versus jumping on a back line? When do you move data versus process on the edge? Those are all business decisions that need to be there into some framework. >> So you guys are going, we can go and go and go. But I want to follow up on your segway on containers. 'Cause containers is such an important part of this story and an enabler to this story. And you guys made and aggressive move with Hep TO. We've had Craig McLuckie on when he was still at Google and Dan, great guys. But it's kind of funny right? 'Cause three years ago, everyone was going to DockerCon right? That was like, we're all about shows. That was the hot show. Now Docker's kind of faded and Kubernetes is really taking off. Why, for people that aren't familiar with Kubernetes, they probably hear it at cocktail parties if they live in the Bay area. Why is containers such an important enabler and what's so special about Kubernetes specifically? >> Do you want to go on the general or? >> Why don't your start off? >> I brought my products stuff for sure. >> If you look at the world its getting much more dynamic. Particularly as you start to get more digitally decoupled applications, you're starting, we've come from a world where a virtual machine might have been up for months or years to all the sudden you have containers that are much more dynamic, allowed to scale quickly, and then they need to be orchestrated. And that's essentially what Kubernetes does, is really start to orchestrate that. And as we get more distributed workloads, you need to coordinate them. You need to be able to scale up as you need for performance etcetera So Kubernetes is an incredible technology that allows you really to optimize the placement of that. So just like the virtual machine changed how we compute, containers now gives us a much more flexible, portable, you can run on any infrastructure at any location. Closer to the data etcetera to do that. >> I think the bold move we made is, we finally, after working with customers and partners like Accenture, we have a very comprehensive strategy. We announced Project Tanzu at our last VM World. And Project Tanzu really focused on three aspects of containers, How do you build applications, which is what Pivotal and the acquisition of Pivotal was driven around. How do we run these on a robust enterprise class run time? And what if you could take every vSphere ESX out there and make it a container platform. Now we have half a million customers. 70 million VM's. All the sudden, that run time we are container enabling with a Project Pacific. So vSphere 7 becomes a common place for running containers and VMs. So that debate of VMs or containers? Done, gone. One place or just spend up containers and resources. And then the more important part is how do I manage this? As you have said. Becoming more of a platform, not just an orchestration technology. But a platform for how do I manage applications. Where I deploy them where it makes more sense. I've decoupled my application needs from the resources and Kubernetes is becoming that platform that allows me to portably. I'm the Java Weblogic guy, right? So this is like distributed Weblogic Java on steroids, running across clouds. So pretty exciting for a middleware guy, this is the next generation middleware. >> And to what you just said, that's the enabling infrastructure that will allow it to roll into future things like edge devices. >> Absolutely. >> You can manage an Edge client. You can literally-- >> the edge, yeah. 'Cause now you've got that connection. >> It's in the fabric that you are going to be able to connect. And networking becomes a key part. >> And one of the key things, and this is going to be the hard part is optimization. So how do we optimize across particularly performance but even cost? >> And security, rewiring security and availability. >> So still I think my all time favorite business book is Clayton Christensen, "Innovator's Dilemma". One of the most important lessons in that book is what are you optimizing for? And by rule, you can't optimize for everything equally. You have to rank order. But what I find really interesting in this conversation and where we're going and the complexity of the size of the data, the complexity of what am I optimizing for now just begs for plight AI. This is not a people problem to solve. This is AI moving fast. >> Smart infrastructure going to adapt. >> Right, so as you look at that opportunity to now apply AI over the top of this thing, opens up tremendous opportunity. >> Absolutely, I mean standardized infrastructure allows you, sorry, allows you to get more metrics. It allows you to build models to optimize infrastructure over time. >> And humans just can't get their head around it. I mean because you do have to optimize across multiple dimensions as performance, as cost. But then that performance is compute, it's the network. In fact the network's always going to be the bottleneck. So you look at it, even with 5G which is an order magnitude more band width, the network will still lag. You go back to Moore's Law, right? It's a, even though it's extended to 24 months, price performance doubles, so the amount of data potentially can exponentially grow our networks don't keep pace. So that optimization is constantly going to have to be tuned as we get even with increases in network we're going to have to keep balancing that. >> Right, but it's also the business optimization beyond the infrastructure optimization. For instance, if you are running a big power generation field of a bunch of turbines, right, you may want to optimize for maintenance 'cause things are running in some steady state but maybe there's an oil crisis or this or that, suddenly the price rises and you are like, forget the maintenance right now, we've got a revenue opportunity that we want to tweak. >> You just talked about which is in a dynamic industry. How do I real time change the behavior? And more and more policy driven, where the infrastructure is smart enough to react, based on the policy change you made. That's the world we want to get to and we are far away from that right now. >> I mean ultimately I think the Kubernetes controller gets an AI overlay and then operators of the future are tuning the AI engines that optimize it. >> Right, right. And then we run into the whole thing which we talked about many times in this building with Dr. Rumman Chowdhury from Accenture. Then you got the whole ethics overlay on top of the business and the optimization and everything else. That's a whole different conversation for another day. So, before we wrap I just want to give you kind of last thoughts. As you know customers are in all different stages of their journey. Hopefully, most of them are at least off the first square I would imagine on the monopoly board. What does, you know, kind of just top level things that you would tell people that they really need just to keep always at the top as they're starting to make these considerations? Starting to make these investments? Starting to move workloads around that they should always have at the top of their mind? >> For me it's very simple. It's really about focus on the business outcome. Leverage the best resource for the right need. And design architectures that are flexible that give you choice, you're not locked in. And look for strategic partners, whether it's technology partners or services partners that allow you to guide. Because if complexity is too high, the number of choices are too high, you need someone who has the breadth and depth to give you that platform which you can operate on. So we want to be the ubiquitous platform from a software perspective. Accenture wants to be that single partner who can help them guide on the journey. So, I think that would be my ask is start thinking about who are your strategic partners? What is your architecture and the choices you're making that give you the flexibility to evolve. Because this is a dynamic market. Once you make decisions today, may not be the ones you need in six months even. >> And that dynanicism is accelerating. If you look at it, I mean, we've all seen change in the industry, of decades in the industry. But the rate of change now, the pace, things are moving so quickly. >> And we need to respond to competitive or business oriented industry. Or any regulations. You have to be prepared for that. >> Well gentleman, thanks for taking a few minutes and great conversation. Clearly you're in a very good space 'cause it's not getting any less complicated any time soon. >> Well, thank you again. And thank you. >> All right, thanks. >> Thanks. >> Larry and Ajay, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE. We are top of San Francisco in the Sales Force Tower at the Accenture Innovation Hub. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. It's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2018, brought to you by Cisco. >> Hi there and welcome to the special CUBE live broadcast here at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California, It's theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Cisco's DevNet Create. This is Cisco's developer ecosystem brand new, second event that they've done, and it's one and a half years in existence. This is Cisco's extension to their DevNet developer program, which is mostly Cisco developers, mostly networking, and theCUBE is here covering the future of cloud native Kubernetes, and the future of application development, as networks become more programmable. I'm John Furrier, your host, with Lauren Cooney, analyst today co-hosting with me, all day coverage. Our guest is Allan Naim, who is the product manager at Google Kubernetes engine, at Google, right down the street here. Allan, great to have you, thanks for joining us. >> Yeah, thanks for inviting me. >> So, you are the key man with the fireside chat with Susie Wee who is heading up this whole program, doing an amazing job. Google's no stranger. We all know Google at the scale level, massive scale, running infrastructure, building your own stuff, really inventing the category and then fast followers, Facebook among others, large scale. So, you guys invented Kubernetes. So that's a fact. So, tell the story of how it started because there was a moment in Google where Kubernetes, there was a debate. Do we keep it internally, open it up? And you guys have history. You've created MapReduce, you've created the data surge that we're seeing now and changing the game there. Maybe a little bit differently than how Kubernetes is handled. What's the inside story about the creation of Kubernetes and how it's evolved? >> Yeah, so Google has been working with containers for a long, long, time. It's nothing new to Google, and we wanted really to take a lot of the best practices associated with how we manage and run containers internally and share that with the community as a whole. What we found initially was the move to the cloud was very much traditionally a lift and shift and modernized move. And, there's a reason why only, I think the latest statistic I've seen is less than 10% of the applications have actually moved to the cloud. What about the other 90%? So, we wanted to bring some of the magic that Google uses internally and bring that to the world, right, so that you can modernize wherever you're running, right, for those applications that can't just move to the cloud. Why not provide a way to take advantage of some of the innovations that we've created around packaging applications up, deploying applications very seamlessly, and then eventually moving them to the cloud with less friction? And that was really behind the reason we took Kubernetes, which is really a set of best practices around how Google runs and operates containers, and made it available to the open source community. We could've kept it internally, right, and not shared it with the community, but then that really stifles innovation. Google is not about stifling innovation. We're about enabling the community to really drive innovation and build an ecosystem around it. And looking back now, it was a tremendous move. >> Yeah, and you know what, the leadership I remember at that time, and I wanted to get that out there. Thank you for sharing that. Craig McLuckie, Brendan Burns, Joe Beda, those guys and the team around them, it was kind of a small team, held the line on that. And the conversation was, this needs to happen in an open way mainly because you saw, though, how to manage your workloads internally and wanted to bring it to the masses. So, real props to the original team, a really good call, and again, it worked out great. >> Yes. >> So, okay, today. Where are we today? Because now you go back at the creation of Kubernetes, you guys open it up, still contributed and nurtured it, and now it becomes part of the bigger part of the open source community. You have now new innovations. What is the update from your standpoint where Kubernetes is today? Okay, it's well know that the containers is now standard and standard. Now the business model container hasn't materialized. That's okay. The technical architecture is very solid. Kubernetes has become the favorite child in the architecture because of the benefits. What's the update? What's Kubernetes doing today that's compelling? What's the update? >> Yeah, so just as you said, containers are mainstream now. Kubernetes is on fire. We see a world today where Kubernetes is literally running everywhere, right, from Google Cloud to other clouds to partnerships that we have with the likes of Cisco. You now have these clusters that are popping up in heterogeneous environments. So, we've enabled developers now to really build services very efficiently and update those services in a consistent manner regardless of where those services are running. Now, as you build more and more clusters and expose more and more services, the day two experience starts coming in, right? How do I manage this environment? How do I manage my services? How do I find out what these services are actually doing, which services are talking to each other? How do I do more of the networking aspect around traffic management? And this is where I see a lot of the investments happening right now in the open source world with projects like Istio, which are fairly new, but are taking a lot of the goodness that Kubernetes is bringing and applying more of an operations mindset around networking. >> And what problem is that solving? Can you be specific? Because I like this day two experience. I mean, day three will be like, oh my God. How do you manage it beyond that, but, what is the problem that's being solved? Is it more industrial strength, is it more tolerance? Is it securities or all the above? What's the main problem? >> It's security, it's when you're running services in heterogeneous environments, there is no consistent security model, right? Istio helped solved some of that. It's service discovery. When services are running, again, in environments where you have different mechanisms for storing services, how do you discover these services? Now, how do you route traffic to the right service? How do you do canary deployments where perhaps I'd like to trickle certain load onto a new version and eventually move all my work into the new version that I've deployed? So, canary testing. Running services in geographic locations and using networking algorithms to route my requests to the closest location. Those are all really hard challenges that you need to solve, and technologies like Istio really make it possible for developers to get those benefits without having to write a single line of code, right? So, you leverage the API to get all these benefits that I just talked about. >> I want to get you in for a minute to talk about that if we can. Talk about Google cloud right now vis a vis the momentum because a lot's changed with Google just in the past couple of years. A lot of people on board, new hires, industry veterans, leaders. We've heard Lou Tucker from Cisco say at CubeCon that Istio is probably the biggest thing he's seen in years in terms of its implementation capability to impact the valued creation of application developers and also in creating efficiencies in networks. How is the Google team right now doing? Give an update, because you guys are now in the center of it and I've called you guys, the real competitor to Amazon, because I consider you and amazon probably the coolest cloud and most relevant clouds vis a vis what clients want to do in a modern era. Not so much retrofitting legacy cloud to make it kind of retrofit, but really doing ground zero cutting edge cloud stuff. What's the update from Google Cloud? What are you guys most proud of? What's the things that you want to highlight that are notable? >> So, Google Cloud's been growing at a tremendous rate. It's just mind-boggling how fast customer adoption has been. What we've seen is, the adoption has spanned all the way from startup to small, medium-sized businesses, extending into the Fortune 100s regardless of industry. And what we hear from customers is they like the clean APIs that Google provides. They like our compute infrastructure from a resiliency standpoint, the transparency that we provide in terms of enabling customers in running their workloads on Google Cloud. We've made a lot of investments in Google Cloud and we continue to make these investments. Now, on the cloud native and container fronts, what we're doing and what we're focusing on is really a differentiated model where we are working with customers to enable them to modernize in place and move to the cloud at their own pace versus having to lift and shift an application to take advantage of modernization and APIs in the cloud. That's really a differentiating story that we're bringing to the table. Along with that, we continue to invest in storage, in optimizing our networking, in setting up more and more points of presence around the world. We added, I believe, over 12 zones last year around the world. So, the growth rate has just been phenomenal. On the Kubernetes side, it's all about value, right? It's all about differentiated value as well. Google has been operating a managed Kubernetes service now for over two years. Building and providing a managed service is hard, right? We have the expertise to do that. We feel that Google Cloud is the best environment on the planet for running containers. And through this expertise, we'll continue to invest to bring our services and make it a first class experience to run managed scale containers as well. >> So, would it be safe to say that you guys are focused on differentiating and not trying to be the whole world, everything to everybody, to really kind of narrow the focus? >> Well, there are table stakes that you need to address, especially around storage and networking, and we feel we've gotten there, right? Now, for a customer that's picking a cloud, whether it's Google or any other cloud, we've addressed those table stakes. But on the cloud native side of the house, when building containerized applications, we feel that we have a differentiated offering that really no other cloud on the planet can deliver on. >> That's awesome. Let's talk about, and my last question is mush more about developers' relationship to the new architecture. We'll call this the new architecture. >> Yeah. >> You've got Kubernetes which has done some great innovate work, containers continue to be a great resource aspect of architecture, and storage infrastructure becoming more programmable like what Cisco's offering. Great stuff. App developers. I just want to write code. So, you've got some developers. How does a developer, in your opinion, Google's opinion, yours and Google's opinion, how do they determine their relationship to the network or the new architecture? You've got some guys who just want to write apps. So, I don't want to do any kind of speeds and feeds. Some guys want to get down and dirty and wire up some services when you get in the middle layer, and some might want to get down low in the stack. How does a developer kind of peg their orientation to different parts of the cloud architecture? >> So, when you really think about it, Kubernetes is a logical layer that sits on top of infrastructure that makes it possible to take an application that runs a certain way in one location to run consistently in other locations. So, for application developers that just want to write code, we've got a clean set of APIs that they can take advantage of to spin up cluster resources, deploy their applications. We've been heavily focused as well on not just creating an amazing story for stateless applications, but stateful applications as well. So, being able to orchestrate, you choreograph your application deployment. Now, for developers that want to get their hands dirty, the way we've designed Kubernetes is very much an extensible model. So, the Kubernetes APIs can be extended and functionality can actually be over written to tailor the experience. A developer may want to plug in a different type of controller, for example, versus the standard Kubernetes controller. So, we enabled that, think of it as a peel the onion approach, so that we can meet the developer where they are and give them the tools required for them to actually be productive in their companies or in the community. >> Awesome. Right, and you guys have a deal with Cisco, or relationship with Cisco, or else you're here, at the DevNet Create event, which is about cloud native, not so much about being kind of Cisco or DevNet, the classic developer program. On stage you talked about Istio. Is that the key to the partnership with Cisco? What specifically is your relationship to Cisco? >> Yeah, it's a great question. So, with Cisco, we've been hearing from customers a lot that getting Kubernetes up and running on premise is really hard. We've also been hearing a lot from customers that they want support. So, we got together with Cisco to provide a hybrid offering that tailors customers that want to start their journey to cloud native on prem. So, Cisco basically provides a mechanism, right, for customers to actually run Kubernetes on prem with a single support model for all their needs, which is great for Google because this is something that Cisco-- >> They know a lot about that. >> Absolutely. Now, for customers that want to start building in the cloud and connecting to the cloud, but you need secure performance networking. How do you do that, right? Well, Cisco is an innovator in networking and security. Google is an innovator in cloud and open source technology and cloud native technology. So, we bring these two things together to give really developers and sys admins a world where they can collaborate and have an API-driven approach to running workloads that span a hybrid estate. >> John: And it's great for you guys too. You open up your market to the enterprise. >> Yeah, I would say that also it really gives an opportunity for network engineers and developers, and I think you talked about clusters ops and Arkino and new types of app ops that you're bringing to the table-- >> Yep, yes. >> And what kind of roles do you see these people playing as you grow that ecosystem? >> Exactly. It's not just about the technology, but it's the culture within the company that oftentimes really drives, it's a hard obstacle to bypass. For customers that I talk to, a lot of times they tell me, look, we've settled. We want to go with Kubernetes, but what about the internal culture? How do we build our teams around Kubernetes? How do we scale our services in such a way where we have specialization of service?kino And I talked about Narkino, the whole notion of separation of concerns where we introduce this new notion in terms of how Google does things of an application ops team that's typically small in size, but their role starts where the developer role ends, and basically, they're responsible for taking an application from a developer and deploying it out into a environment. Then you have a cluster ops role team that's focused on the underlying infrastructure and maintains all the various cluster APIs, the Kubernetes environment. So, think of them as shared services that are very much tailored to enabling developers to do what they do best and build great applications and push changes in production very quickly. >> Well, thanks for coming out to theCUBE. I know you've got another hard stop. You're got another panel. Real quick, I'll give you the final word. What's the one thing people should know about Google Cloud that they may not know about or gets buried in the noise out in the marketplace? >> Yeah. Google Cloud is the most innovative cloud out there on the market. We have points of presence in literally every region around the world. Our APIs are some of the cleanest out there of any cloud, as well as the Kubernetes experience running in Google has been something that we've been invested in for over two years and it's actually a highly optimized experience for developers that want to run their containerized application and very differentiated. And 100% upstream compatible with Kubernetes open source. >> That's great stuff. I got to tell you, just Google team, we covered all the cloud players from day one. There's no shortcut. You've got to put the work in, whether it's public sector or getting the building blocks in there. You guys do a great job. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Kubernetes is worth noting. theCUBE covering all the action, and the story here is Kubernetes, Google's creation, which is now open standard for all, 100% upstream compatible here at the Cisco's DevNet Create event. Back with more live coverage. I'm John Furrier with Lauren cooney after this short break. (upbeat music) [Announcer] In center.

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017, brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage live here in Austin, Texas for the CNCF's two conferences, CloudNativeCon, which was yesterday, and two days, today and tomorrow, KubeCon for Kubernetes' conference. This is theCUBE, of course, from SiliconANGLE Media. I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Stu Miniman. Our next guest, Dan Kohn, is the executive director of the CNCF, the man who put it all together. Congratulations. Welcome back to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Oh, absolutely. Thrilled to have you guys back here again. >> So you kind of doing a victory lap here now, high fiving each other? >> Dan: Great hugs. >> John: Great event. >> Laughing: I'm glad it's a good event, and I am hearing fantastic feedback that folks are thrilled to be here. But we sort of describe this moment for the organization and the community as being the end of the beginning. >> John: Yeah. >> Where we now have all the major cloud vendors, all of the biggest enterprise software companies. We have a core group of 14 projects anchored by Kubernetes, but tons and tons of work in front of us. >> And tons of success, so I'm just going to read a couple of highlights from yesterday. There's a lot today. Baidu joins the CNCF, a lot of scaling production application examples, 31 new silver end-user members joined, Alibaba Cloud update to platinum, CoreDNS 1.0, Containerd, Fluentd, Jaeger, tons of news. Obviously, we've been pumping out the coverage. Today, again, more and more great goodness. But really interesting is that you guys have put a frame around this community to allow it to grow, to fertilize the open source vibe, which is all cloud but yet scaled. And you put up a slide I want to get your reaction to that I thought was compelling yesterday during your keynote. It was the flywheel, circle, and it said projects, products, profit. >> Dan: Right. >> And not that you're promoting profit, but you're not hiding the ball, either, saying, hey, you know what? There's a lot of commercial interest in cloud, obviously. We saw AWS' success last week. And that is if you create good products in this community framework, there's profit to be had. >> Right. So first of all, I should admit to plagiarizing that slide from Linux Foundation Executive Director Jim Zemlin. >> And similarly, I think you can look at a lot of aspects... >> It's an open source feature. >> Dan: Yes. >> Free for you to use. >> John: Right. >> Similarly, I think there's a lot of ways in which Kubernetes is trying to build on the success of Linux. And Jim even describes Kubernetes as the Linux of the cloud. >> John: Yeah. >> Stu: Yeah. >> John: That's a good point. >> Dan, one of the things we've been talking around Kubernetes is you talk about scale. >> Dan: Right. >> Talk about scale of the CNCF. You have 4 to 14 projects. People are a little worried when you get all the vendors around here and there's all these projects. It's a foundation thing, it's going to go off the rails. >> Dan: Yeah. >> Customers aren't going to have a voice. How do we make sure we kind of learn from some of the things that other projects have had challenges with in the past? >> And I think that's our advantage, which is the great thing about coming later than some of the other foundations, is we can look at where they had successes and where they had issues. And our aspiration for CNCF is to get to go make entirely new mistakes rather than replicating some of the issues that have come before. And so really from the beginning of CNCF, we had a somewhat unusual and frankly a little bit cumbersome charter where I describe it at times as a three-ring circus. We have a governing board made up of the vendors that are putting a lot of money into the community, but they don't get to run the projects and they don't even get to pick the projects. Instead, they appoint six of the nine members of an independent technical oversight committee, kind of like the Supreme Court. And then we have a third group in the end-user community that I'm thrilled to say is now up to 28 members in it. They appoint one of those folks. We finally got that working. We have Sam Lambert, the director of infrastructure at GitHub, who has just made a huge commitment to Kubernetes and is moving all their infrastructure over into it. Those seven appoint the last two. And so that body, and they just had their public meeting a couple hours ago. They feel very strongly about their independence, about their reputation, that they're trying to make very good judgments based on what they're seeing in the marketplace. >> That's interesting, the three-ring circle. I like how you put it. But let's talk about the end-user piece because I think that's critical. One of the things we were commenting earlier from the Lyft folks was you have a lot of end users who have built some large-scale systems out of their own sheer necessity. >> Dan: Definitely. >> And that is now being donated in. We saw Kubernetes come in with, you shepherded beautifully, went from Google, but you've got Lyft donating an amazing product convoy. >> This first convoy has a huge amount of excitement. And what was fun was, actually, on the same stage that they contributed back in LA in September, Uber contributed a separate project. Now, unlike Uber and Lyft, the two projects are in no way competitive- >> John: Yeah. >> Like Jaeger is really fantastic tracing one. But what they have in common is that they're companies that have had to grow from nothing to extremely high scale and then had problems that they solved. And they wanted to share that expertise with us. >> I want to get your thoughts on this. Because we've been speculating, on theCUBE, we've been kind of thinking, an editorial, but just that this is all good business. Now, that's pretty obvious, right? You're starting to see this kind of contribution, the gifts that keep on giving. These are significant code. >> Dan: Yeah. >> Not like, okay, let's start a little group and huddle and build something organically. You have real goodness coming in from Google, Uber, Lyft, and there's a million others. >> Dan: Right. >> How is that changing the game? Certainly accelerating it. That's really bringing goods to the table. >> Right. I think the whole... >> You have to manage it. >> Well, and for what it's worth, I don't actually manage the projects. And so we do provide a set of services- >> John: The community? >> -to them and we help them, we market them. But one of the unusual aspects of CNCF is that the projects do actually manage themselves. A little bit of guidance from the TOC, but we really are unusual in that sense. And that's one of the reasons the projects have been... >> And what's interesting is, to connect the dots, though, one step further, you're talking about a commercial entity donating massive intellectual property in the open for all the goodness of everyone else. But yet that flywheel is continuing. They're still using it. So it is inherently commercial dynamic. >> Right. And back to that circle, I think really the underlying concept is that companies agree that sharing key parts of their infrastructure has a huge amount of value to the whole ecosystem, to each other. And then they're absolutely eager to compete above that. And so you can look at it with the public clouds where we have now Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Alibaba, IBM, Oracle all at the table. They are absolutely fierce competitors. But they're saying that this specific software infrastructure layer isn't the area that they want to compete. They want to compete on all the value-added services, customer service, et cetera. >> Dan, I wonder if you can speak to how CNCF connects to some of the broader communities out there. Things like Kata containers got announced coming out of the OpenStack group. You've got a serverless track happening here, kind of extends some of where Kubernetes is going. How does CNCF fit into the broader... >> Sure. And it's definitely the case that all the innovation out there cannot happen in CNCF. Most obviously, everything that we do, almost everything depends on Linux. And so that's our parent organization, the Linux Foundation. But we've had a good collaboration with Jonathan Bryce from OverStack. They have two booths on the floor here at the show. And we've spoken to Clear Containers and RunV, the two predecessors in the past. But the part that I'm particularly pleased with for Kata containers is that it is an OCI-compliant runtime, that's another sister organization, and is really designed to work well for Kubernetes. And then they can pitch that and let the market go decide which container runtimes they find the most valuable. >> Obviously a lot of traction here in terms of the sentiment around service meshes and pluggable lock-in textures. That's been very cool. But security came up. So I want to get your thoughts around security, obviously storage and these older models around how to deal with storage and networking. Obviously, always in the action. >> Yeah. >> But security is top of mind for everyone. How is that being addressed? You know, talk is out there... >> Sure. I mean our philosophy on this is that moving to cloud-native and particularly the continuous integration and continuous development that goes along with that is the most important step that you can do to help secure your infrastructure. And Equifax is the example everyone always brings up. But there was a case where they were using known insecure software and they didn't have the processes up to place where instead of doing quarterly updates or monthly updates, you want to be doing dozens of updates per day. And a cloud-native infrastructure allows you to do that. >> What's next for you? Because you've got great traction with both community response, and the community has been absolutely amazing, the quality of people, level has been great, but also at the funding sponsors. You've got a lot of people that are involved. What's next? What happens next? What do you envision happening? What's the plan, and then how do you view that evolving? >> Well, I hate to fall into the buzzword implosion here, but if you go back to the crossing the chasm metaphor, I think we're still very much just in the early adopter phase. 2018 could very well be the moment that we jump over to the early majority. And I do feel like this whole community now has the velocity to do that and that we're on track for it. But as that happens, there's just far, far more people who need to be educated so they understand the projects and the options and how to work with them. And then hopefully they go from just being consumers of these technologies to contributors and that we can welcome them into our community and hopefully get the advantage of their expertise as well. >> I want to get your thoughts on a comment that Stu and I were talking about. Stu, you and I were talking about the notion of value creation above the stack, and then how Kubernetes, although some could say being commoditized, but it's also creating value because with that consistency of Kubernetes, you can now create value. So we believe, and I want to get your reaction to this, because we think a whole new ecosystem dynamic will emerge of a new kind of ecosystem. And if this new app developer combined with software engineering, which is really going on, you're talking about the cloud, the app developers will just build in value, that value creation will be rewarded. That's where monetization will be happening. >> And if I could build off that... >> John: Yeah. >> Dan, I loved one of your opening comments. You quoted, "exciting times for boring infrastructure, "maybe too exciting." So this week we've been teasing out there's a lot of work to make that infrastructure boring. You've got everybody on this floor, the CNCF board, lots of new projects making that. Where the action is and what this is going to create is that application monetization and the speed and agility of being able to create these cool new cloud-native applications out there. So it's interesting dynamic, spans broad pieces of this, layers of the stack there. >> Yeah. Well, I will point out that there was an odd level of unanimity of just a ton of different leaders in the community, in keynotes from Craig McLuckie and Chen Goldberg and others where they all agree that Kubernetes is not by any means the ultimate answer or the final answer. I think everybody now expects to see Kubernetes as a core aspect of the infrastructure for software for the next decade or more. But there's a belief that there's a whole ton of value that needs to be added above it, particularly to try and show for a regular application developer who just has a PHP app or no-GS microservices or anything else what's the easiest way to go from having a piece of software and deploying it effectively. >> Dan, so it's interesting. You watch the people on the outside. They're like, oh, look at Kubernetes. They're all holding hands and saying Kumbaya. We know there's some spirited debates that happen- >> Dan: Definitely. >> In the code, some projects that are sometimes competing up there. Why has the community come together, and where are some of the areas that we still need to work on and improve to help customers going forward? >> And again, I think they have the big advantage of having watched other communities that didn't value community and consensus and the ability to work through their issues. And so thankfully, we just have a ton of really capable engineers who also have some of those social or personal qualities that they care about working these things out. And to date, at least, I think most of those disagreements have been settled pretty amicably and in a positive direction. I think there's still huge swathes of this space that are still up in the air. Storage is an obvious one where there's a ton of work going on in a storage working group of CNCF. Serverless is another where I think everyone agrees that the application deployment model of AWS Lambda is really exciting and has things that people should replicate and should be brought over to Kubernetes. But how that should happen, what the software is, et cetera, there's still, in fact, we have our first serverless track today here at KubeCon where several different competing approaches are all talking about what they'd like to do. >> Awesome stuff. And you also announced some dates for next year, December 11 and 13 in Seattle. >> Dan: Yes. >> Okay. >> Dan: That's a year from now. >> November 14 and 15 in Shanghai. >> Now, you and I met in Hangzhou in the lobby, which was just amazing. But I certainly am hoping to convince you to go back to China with us. This will be our first event... >> I got a three-year visa. >> Good, yeah, that's the exactly right one. But this will be our first event in China, which I think is just a huge opportunity. We now have Baidu, Tencent, Huawai, ZTE, a number of startups. There's just so much excitement for this space over there that we're really excited to satisfy. >> Stu: And Copenhagen in May. >> And that's the last one. Thank you. May 2 to 4 in Copenhagen, and we're really excited for the event, to bring it to Europe and the rest of the world. >> Okay. So you've been working like a dog, you've been working hard. I've seen you in China. It's serendipitous. But it's not without being mentioned that this has been great effort by your team and the Linux Foundation and Jim and the whole team. But congratulations. Are you having a pinch me moment? I know it's too early to do a victory lap. >> But you've got to be pretty excited. >> Yeah. It really has been a great thing for the foundation that we sort of accomplished many of our 2018 and 2019 goals this year. But I'm sure we're going to find plenty of stuff to do next year. >> And your goal for the next 6 to 12 months, what's on your top three to-do's, continue the momentum? Share your API for... >> Yeah. What's great is that we really have plenty of members. We'd always like to add new ones and serve the ones we have better. But right now, the focus is really about providing better services to our projects. All of them feel overworked. They would love help on documentation, on marketing, on messaging about it, and some of them need help with testing development and other things. So that's really what we're buckling down on. >> Great community are going to test them, being here on the ground, personally present at creation. And I was standing there with J.J. and Lew Tucker, OpenStack three years ago, talking about Kubernetes. We were kind of ripping. We couldn't have imagined, then, obviously, they bolted it on last year with your event. Now second year here, huge community... >> But you have 4,100 folks here, is more than the previous four events combined. >> Yeah, awesome. >> So it really is exciting. >> TheCUBE, always on the ground. And sometimes the squirrel finds a nut. We found a cloud-native foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. CNCF, Cloud-Native Compute Foundation, really a new, growing, and relevant community for cloud and a new way to do software and reimagine the future from software engineering to full application development, a new way. This is theCUBE's coverage, and we are here live in Austin. More live coverage after this short break. We'll be right back. [Techno Music]

>> Announcer: Live, from Austin, Texas, it's theCube, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Linux Foundation, and theCube's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, live here. This is theCube's exclusive coverage, live in Austin, Texas for Cloud Native Con and KubeCon with The Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier, the founder. Silicon Angle Media, my cohost Stu Miniman, and next to us Joe Beda, who's the co-founder, co-founder and CTO of Heptio With Craig McLuckie, the famous startup that came out of the Google team, really one of the principal founders of Kubernetes with Craig and the team Brendon Burns and the like. Great to have you on theCube, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much for having me, it's exciting. >> Good time, first time on theCube, glad to have you, we've been trying to get your perspective because obviously we're fans of the Kubernetes, I just had Lou Tucker on, we were talking interclouding and some orchestration opportunity. You guys had that vision and it's really important to tell the story, at the beginning with Kubernetes. You guys were sitting around, having a little beer, free food at the Google cafeteria, what was it like? What happened? How did it all come together? >> All right well, I started at Google probably 10, 12 years ago, did a whole bunch of stuff but eventually landed doing cloud. Craig and I started up a Google compute engine, VM as a service and the odd thing to recognize is that nobody who had been at Google for a long time thought that there was anything to this VM stuff. Because Google had been on containers for so long, that was their mindset, Borg was the way that stuff was actually deployed, so my boss at the time, who's now in Cloud Era booted up a VM for the first time, and anybody in the outside world would be like hey, that's really cool and his response was like, well now what? You're sitting at a prompt, that's not super interesting, how do I run my app? That's what everybody's been struggling with with Cloud, it's not how do I get a VM, how do I actually run my code? As Google got more and more serious about Cloud, every big company wants to dog food their products. How do we make the experience that folks inside of Google have, developers inside of Google have, match the experience that Cloud customers have? The choice there was either we make everybody inside of Google start using VM's which would have felt like that step backwards, or we teach the rest of the world about Borg. Now around the same time, docker started getting a lot of attention and we were like hey, those guys are onto something, they really found a good way to make this technology accessible to users on a single node level, but our experience at Google really taught us that that clusters you, how do you actually create this abstraction that a whole bunch of computers are one thing that you operate with? That was the thing that was going to be interesting and so out of that, we decided Kubernetes was going to be the thing or at least getting Borg out to the rest of the world, and we knew for it to be effective, it couldn't just be Google doing it alone, we had to do it in a way that would bring the rest of the industry with us. That's the motivation behind Kubernetes. It took us about another three months to convince all the folks at Google that this was a good idea, it was controversial, the open source projects at the time were things like, the biggest things would be like Chrome and Android. Those things were, the relationship with their community was very different from what we were aiming for with Kubernetes, they were much more consumer focused versus infrastructure focused. >> It was early too for Google to recognize the multi cloud world. >> I think some it wasn't so much multi cloud as much as developers have a really strong sense of where the lock in is, where the vendor lock in is, and we knew that if we wanted to win the hearts and minds of engineers and developers and folks that took this stuff seriously, as the underdog in the cloud world at the time, you had to really go out there and build something that was going to be widely applicable. Because you don't want to invest your time and energy into something that's super specialized to one cloud and I think the whole multi cloud thing, honestly I think it's engineers and developers and operations folks that had that sense from the get go, we were just reacting to that. >> Good instincts too. Kubernetes certainly working out today, state of the union, cause we're still only less than three years old as a community, seems like 20, but the momentum's been amazing, has been a lot of revision, a lot of people have their own versions of Kubernetes, yet there's a core, vanilla Kubernetes, but it's working. People have gotten around this. What is the big thing that has surprised you the most and where are you most excited right now, where Kubernetes is at? >> Okay surprise, there's 4100 people here at KubeCon, that's absolutely insane. I think we had this idea that it could be a thing and that, but I don't think that any of us imagined that within three years we'd be sitting here, doing this type of thing. That I think for me is the most surprising. It's a challenge to take these ideas that have been successful inside at Google and translate those to the rest of the world and it wasn't an easy or obvious thing, there were a lot of good ideas but figuring out how to get those out there, I think that really is due to the larger community. Folks like Clayton Pullman from Red Hat coming in early with a lot of that really brought a lot of that outside DNA necessary to bridge that gap. Surprising that we got here, but really it took the community to make that happen. In terms of what I'm most excited about right now, with the announcement of EKS from Amazon, it definitely feels like we're moving into a new phase of Kubernetes where folks are being much more focused on what do you do with Kubernetes versus how do you get Kubernetes running. Kelsey tweeted it the other day, but I think we've been saying for a while, Kubernetes at its heart is a platform for building platforms, really we viewed it from the start as a toolbox and I think we're only now starting to see, what other things are people going to be building with that toolbox and I think that's going to be that larger ecosystem, is going to be much larger than Kubernetes itself. >> Joe, coming into this show, there were so many announcements around Kubernetes, there's like 42 certified different versions out there. I think you could help explain a little bit because there's the big cloud guys, you mentioned Clayton who we had earlier from Red Hat, there's all these companies, oh well, Kubernetes is just like it's a piece and it's in there. Your company is around Kubernetes, so what does this mean that Kubernetes is, I guess we'd say commoditized across there, I think it's a good thing for the industry, but what does it mean, why is there a need for Heptio and what do you guys see as your role in the ecosystem? >> There's a bunch of folks that are really concentrating on how do I get Kubernetes up and running and that's one thing, and I think that landscape is going to be changing and evolving over time. We're definitely happy to help folks be successful with Kubernetes, it's one of those things we're going to do, we're going to do an open source project, services, support and training with that, but when we look forward, I think a big part of it is, how do we bridge the gap to integrate Kubernetes into businesses, how do we start building those next layer tools on top of it and to some degree, it's a wild west. There's those 42 companies, everybody's trying to actually find something that's going to be interesting, start solving problems, but the thing that's really encouraging to me is that Kubernetes is the base and we're doing work, both Heptio and the community around conformance to make sure that we actually have a solid base that folks can build on top of. Then everybody's focused on how can we actually capture the attention of developers, how can we actually deliver value there and so that's a really great dynamic, when everybody's like I want to do something really great that people are going to get a lot out of, only good things are going to come from that. >> Yeah and I liked, there was a concern some people had, oh last week AWS is now all in, they've got EKS, but you had an announcement about the Heptio authenticator open source authentication, a little bit of a partnership with AWS it looked like. Maybe explain, it sounds like one of the things you're building on top of this. >> Yeah exactly. Like everybody else, we had heard all the rumors, hey is Amazon going to do a Kubernetes offering or not. In our mind, there were two ways. >> Didn't they have to Joe? >> Well that's what I thought last year, but who knows, I think Amazon doesn't have to do anything but when we first started Kubernetes, we reached out to the folks at Amazon including Deepak and we're like hey, you guys are welcome, come join us here and they were like yeah, yeah, we'll join you when the customers are asking for it. Well it turns out the customers were asking for it, so here they are and I think it's a great thing. I think it could've gone two ways, they could have built in a bunch of integrations into Kubernetes that were only available through EKS that really made EKS a more integrated, better Kubernetes than running open source Kubernetes on top of Amazon, or they could've worked with the community, with upstream to try and make Kubernetes run great on Amazon, better on Amazon as is but then run even better when you're running it with EKS and they actually have the management on top of it. I think they decided to go that second route which is much more community friendly. A couple weeks before the announcement, they reached out to us, said hey, we noticed you had this project, it looks really interesting, we need a way to bridge IM to authenticate to Kubernetes and we like the approach that you're taking, can we work together to continue to develop this and that was the first signal to us that they wanted to really reach out and work with the community and so we're like hey, that sounds great, let's work together and get that stuff out there. It's still very early, I think EKS is GA next year, they set an aggressive goal for themselves, so I'm really looking forward to see where they take that and we're going to partner with them where it makes sense around things like authenticator. >> You mentioned we're going to a whole other level with Kubernetes and Amazon's announcement goes to the next level, you also mentioned you worked at Google Compute, Apple, all these other cool names with Google and you got Heptio, you're solving making interesting things happen with Kubernetes and you got a new class of developers coming in that have never heard of what a local director is. Infrastructure as code is happening, so you got the cloud game going on. I got to ask you, as Kubernetes starts to continue to take shape, a lot of people are trying to survive. In this technical architecture decisions, almost a tech chess game, which side of history will you be on thing going on and customers want more clarity. You have a lot of movement and customers want clarity. How do you see it continuing and what is the right path in your mind because it's looking good right now and commoditization as some say, I think is a good thing because value, there's value in interoperability, there's value in orchestration, there's value in a new class of web developer creating, solving problems with code, whether it's societal problems or other things, so there's a lot of big picture, wholistic things happening and Kubernetes kind of strikes at the heart of that. What's the right path in your mind, what's the vision you think Kubernetes should go into. >> Well I think first of all, I think change happens in the industry both fast and slow. It feels like it's been three years since Kubernetes, since we open sourced Kubernetes, and it's come a huge way since then. That happened really fast. You look at Enterprise, you look at Enterprise adoption cycles, I believe last I heard the mainframe division was a growing profit center for IBM. This stuff doesn't go away so as we see things like containers and Kubernetes and serverless and cloud, as we see these things come on the scene, it doesn't necessarily replace stuff, it augments and it adds over time so we see the mix of where people invest shift. In that way, things become established quickly, but old things go away slowly. I don't think it's going to be as quick of a shift as maybe it might seem at first. Now in terms of where the opportunities are moving forward and where we see this developing, the thing that's exciting for me is as we have, and this is something early on, talking with Brendon, he got super excited about, is as we provide new abstractions, as we provide a new toolbox, how do people start creating systems and applications that take advantage of that. I'll give you an example, distributed systems, pre-systems like Kubernetes were very difficult because not only did you have to do the thing that you wanted to do, you had to build all of this plumbing to actually get your things to talk to each other, the finds, the secure, all that stuff had to be created from scratch and those systems were rare and hard to manage and few and far between. Now with things like Kubernetes, there's a whole set of problems that you actually don't have to solve. The floor that you need, the floor is that much higher for building these systems so I think we're going to see a shift not just to cloud native, but I also think we're going to see a set of applications that are Kubernetes native. These are applications that assume that Kubernetes is the substrate that they're running on, and they take special advantage of it and I think we're going to see amazing thing happens when we really democratize the plumbing for building distributed systems. >> And that's the key, make that frictionless so if people want to go Kubernetes native, they're taking advantage, that's cool. I want to get to, to take that to the next level, as the world of IOT comes down, you can almost look at the world now as all IOT. There's no on prem and there's no cloud. If you believe this service mission unpluggable architectures, you could argue that a data center is a network point, it's an attached device to a myriad things, so you're going to need policy, the light bulb has a process in it, the wifi has wifis everywhere, so in a way, this is all going to be a grid if you will, it's going to be kind of a mesh. This is the right direction don't you think, the more services that come online, you just want to connect to them. That's the nirvana right? Are we smoking the peace pipe here too much? >> I think there's a bunch of trends that we're seeing happen there. I think with IOT, we see also a move towards edge computing, this idea of, we're going to see much more stuff happening in a more distributed manner. Whether that edge happens to be in your house or whether it's in a telecom cabinet or whether it's just mini data centers that are dropped in to parking lots here and there. That introduces a whole bunch of new problems in terms of how do you manage that stuff at scale. One of the things that I see is that we're seeing an interesting overlap between CDM providers and cloud providers, so you have cloud flare introducing their cloud workers, where you can start running actual code in their CDM nodes and that's the culmination of CDM providers over time fighting with each other to drive more and more customization. On the other hand, you have Amazon taking lambda, finding ways to actually use lambda and push that out to the edge, even into devices that are doing local machine learning. There's this overlap between these two different worlds. Then also, as we move stuff closer out to the clouds, the political situations that people deal with become that much more complex. As you start running compute in all these different countries, all of a sudden you can't necessarily go to one provider to actually deal with all of that. We're moving from this world where, when you're centered around data which is the traditional cloud, when you want to put it all in one big pile with compute around the edges, that's kind of like the traditional data center. Going with a few large providers makes a ton of sense. As we move towards a much more distributed world, it becomes a more distributed problem both in terms of how do you manage the compute, but how do you manage the relationships and how do you actually understand what's happening across all that and I think Kubernetes can be a part of that puzzle for sure, but it's not the end of the answer, there's still a lot of problems to be solved there. >> No but you get the first mile post. You can say hey, I can start orchestrating workloads and have endpoints that have services that talk to each other as the first step. >> Joe, one thing I wanted to ask you, what are the stumbling blocks? What do people need to look out for? Because most companies out there aren't Google. >> This morning at today's keynote and you can find it online, there's that cloud native road map that Dan was showing. That is an interesting thing that cuts both ways. On the one hand, it shows an enormous amount of innovation, it shows that we're seeing this explosion of interest in this world and it's really invigorating. That's from an entrepreneur's view and a technologist's view. If I'm a customer, that thing's kind of horrifying. I look at that and I say wow, I really have to understand all of this stuff to get ahead? I think the biggest stumbling block is really being able to make sense of all the noise out there. I think that noise is part and parcel of an active, innovative, chaotic ecosystem, but I think it's one of those things that makes it that much harder for enterprises and for more mainstream developers to adopt. Tim, we've been saying this for a while, for Kubernetes to be successful, we had to make it boring. That's Tim Hawkin, I think maybe was the first one to say that, but we not only had to make Kubernetes boring, we had to make that entire stack boring, we had to make cloud native boring. That's when it will have succeeded. I don't know what this conference will look like when cloud native is boring, but it'll probably be very different than. >> It'll certainly create some excitement, boring is reliable, boring is safe, boring is secure, boring is comfortable. Mark Zuckerberg once said move fast, break stuff, then he revised it to move fast and be 100% reliable. That's boring. >> Did he actually say that? >> I don't know, he shifted his narrative because that was the maverick early days when he started running at five nines it's like a whole nother ball game. >> Actually that matters. >> Joe, great to have you on theCube, thanks for sharing your awesome insight into the dynamics of the computing industry that's going cloud native, going KubeCon, and certainly Kubernetes that you helped put together with the team, it's certainly taken on a life of its own, last minute, take a minute to talk about Heptio, what you guys are working on, get the plug in. >> Yeah Heptio, we have services, support and training that we're offering to make customers successful with Kubernetes today and that's been invigorating, really getting out there and talking with folks, seeing the problems that they're hitting now versus where we want it to go. We're doing a bunch of work around open source projects, we have Heptio Arc which is a backup disaster recovery project open source, we have Sona Boy, which is a diagnostic project for running the conformance tests and it underpins the Kubernetes conformance effort. We have K Sonic which helps you configure applications and then we also have Contour, which is an ingress controller building on top of Envoy and other CNCF project and then into 2018, we're going to be offering more products and projects and services that really start targeting the special needs of larger and larger enterprises and that's where our focus is going to shift over time. >> You guys are certainly helping customers who are under pressure to add more services, including what Amazon's doing, more pronouncements, there are little announcements, some big some little, but still, the cadence of new things happening is fast at all times right now. >> I can't keep up either, nobody else can. >> We try. Two and a half hour keynote, it's ridiculous. Joe Beda here inside theCube, cofounder CTO of Heptio a hot startup, making Kubernetes interesting and exciting and reliable and boring. Not boring, we should say that. >> Oh boring's good. >> Infrastructure's good, it's theCube, bringing you all the live action from Austin, Texas, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, KubeCon and Cloud Native Con, we'll be right back after this short break.

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage, here live in Austin, Texas for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media with my co-host Stu Miniman, Next is Nigel Poulten, who's the author of the Kubernetes book, also container guru, trainer, been in the business for a long time in the community. Great to have you on for our intro. >> Thank you >> Stu, keynote, let's get down to it. What was the big highlights? >> Yeah, well, first of all John, we've officially entered KubeCon Days here. So CloudNativeCon was yesterday. We've got two more days of KubeCon. Kelsey Hightower, you know, we had him on theCUBE yesterday. Phenomenal speaker, everybody's looking forward to him. Lines to talk to him. Made sure that there was a standing ovation before and after his. Very demo heavy. I mean, you know, this group loves it. There were a lot of, you know, great pithy lines. Arguments over, you know, which is the best language, which is the best way to do things? Knocking on things like YAML. So, it was definitely a fun, geeky discussion. I'm a big Game of Thrones fan. So I loved to see season seven delivered on Kubernetes. >> What was the summary of the keynote? What was the take? >> So I think from my perspective, the summary was Kubernetes is boring. Which translates to us generally, as in it's maturing. It's something that you might want to be able to trust in your production environment, if you're an enterprise. I mean, look, as a technology guy we always think we like to know the details, the weeds. And we like to play with YAML and stuff like that. But at the end of the day, business is down and developers tend not to want to. They want a smooth pipeline. And that's boring, and so boring is good. >> Yeah, and I do want to poke at it a little bit, Nigel, I definitely want your opinion on this, because there are certain technologies we say, "Oh right, it's reached that boring phase", which means it's kind of steady state. Kubernetes is not like One Dot Nine. Coming into the show it was like, how complex it is. Oh my God, there's all these things above and below. Yin gave a really nice keynote showing kind of a layer cake there. >> Yeah. >> I think maybe the Kubernetes layer might be, it's stable enough and used, and people can use it. But this ecosystem by no means is it boring. >> No >> And there's lots of things to make out. What are you seeing? >> Totally, and it's that definition of boring, really. So I would say boring would translate into usable. But you're right, in no way is it boring in any sense. In fact, it's exciting and it's dangerous as well. >> Yeah, and ... >> So I'll give you an example, right. So Kubernetes is massively successful. I think we all grock that at the moment, okay. But it's almost potentially going to be a victim of it's own success. It's always at one of the many summits that was going on before KubeCon and CloudNativeCon started, and it was about networking and there was a bunch of guys here from big carriers and they really want to take this simple networking model that Kubernetes currently has and make it fit their needs, which would make it really complex, dare I say, almost OpenStack Neutron. (laughing) And I think there's so many people here at this conference right now that want to take Kubernetes and use it for their own purposes. And as successful as it is, and as much uptake as it's got, there is a potential danger there, I think, that it explodes out of control, and I don't want to knock OpenStack, but becomes difficult and not what we want it to be, and that's dangerous for them. >> Nigel, you bring up a great point here, because something we've been looking at is every time we abstract or make this new design model, it's "Oh well". We want to make sure the developer doesn't have to worry about that infrastructure. Clayton from Red Hat, we had him on theCUBE, and he talked about it in the keynote, boring means when I write my code I don't have to think about the infrastructure, but networking and storage. Networking some of the basis pieces are done but there's a lot of activity in that space, and storage, we're still arguing over what Container Native Storage should be, what CloudNative storage should be. So it's still to my definition, it's not boring. That's the direction, and I like it. Kind of was where we talked about invisible infrastructure. >> Yeah >> What do you see? You've got a heavy background on that side too. >> So I think I quite like this space that networking is at within Kubernetes. It's simple, and that works for me, right. Storage is certainly, it's still playing catch up there, and I think a lot of decisions still need to be made. The future, in my opinion, is still not clear there. But I think a lot of games have got to be played to say, now how far do we take networking, and how far do we take storage and things like that so that it, in the one sense doesn't balloon out of control, but on the other side you do want it to meet more use cases than just the very basic use cases. So, I mean, that plays back to my idea that that danger aspect of Kubernetes, it seems to have won in the orchestration space at the moment, but I think the road ahead, there still loads of potholes, and there's tight bends, and there's cliff edges and things that we still could fall off, and that's exciting. >> Nigel, your dangerous comment reminds me of some of the early days of V-M-ware. >> Nigel: Right >> You know, people that would get in there, they'd do some really cool things, they'd write it up, share it with the community. And absolutely, it feels like that, almost even bigger. >> Yeah, like the top layer that interfaces with the developers and things like that, that's getting pretty stable. But underneath, I mean, that is a happening place underneath right now, and I imagine it's going to be a happening place for quite a few years. >> What about service meshes and also pluggable architectures? Because that seems to be the answer to the dangerous question. Oh don't worry about it, carriers and what not. You can just build pluggable architectures, no one's going to get hurt. >> Nigel: Yeah >> Not ready for prime time? What's your thoughts? >> So I think service mesh is almost certainly in my opinion, the hot topic of the conference so far. I like this idea of it getting born and stuff, and that's good for the project. But if there's one take away, if it's something that you're not quite clued upon at the moment, go away and look into service mesh. I've got to do a lot of that myself, to be perfectly honest. But this whole idea of running like sidecar containers and what have you, inside of the pods, alongside your application to look at your ingress traffic, your incoming traffic, your outgoing traffic. It's all cool and it can add so much functionality and make it so much more usable to a lot of users. But at the same time there's not ... I don't know, right, look I'm a little bit old fashioned. I remember the days of deploying agents on servers. And we would have server bills that had agent upon agent upon agent. And we have this backlash in the industry of like, you're not bringing your product in vendor x, y or z, okay. If it deploys an agent, we're going fully agentless here. We're sick of managing all these different agents in our stack, and I wonder again, playing to the danger topic here, that like, are we going to end up having loads of these sidecar containers in our pods that are affectively the modern day agents that we then have to manage, and consume resources >> Explain the sidecar generation, it's important. Take a minute to explain the dynamic because containerization has been around for awhile, Google and everyone else knows that. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> But Docker really put it on the map. Now the commoditization of containers with Kubernetes. What's this sidecar thing about? >> Nigel: Okay >> Quick, take a minute to explain to the folks. >> Right, so in the Kubernetes world I guess the atomic unit of deployment, the equivalent of a V-M from the V-M World space would be the pod, which is effectively a container, right? But within that pod you run your application container. And I think for most people you run one container inside of that pod, it's your application, right? What we're starting to see now is, and Kubernetes has always had this ability to run multiple containers inside of a pod. Most people don't do it. And it seems that a lot of the external projects, and a lot of the third party vendors are starting to pick up on this and say, "Alright, well let's run another container "Inside of that pod". It's not your actual application and we call it a sidecar container. And it adds functionality and what have you, but is also potentially eats through resources, it makes your deployments maybe more complicated. I mean it's always a trade off, isn't it? >> Yeah >> You get additional functionality but it's never for free. >> Yeah it's overhead. Alright, talk about the customer guys. What we saw in keynote, we saw HBO on stage. How are customers using Kubernetes? Because I'm trying to put my finger on it. I love Orchestrate, I know what that does, and I understand the benefits, but how are actually people using it today? >> So I think it's a little bit like the whole container thing, right? The early adopters of the Netflix's and the HBOs and the people like that that have got large engineering teams, that have a lot of developers on staff, they're really just comfortable going and taking these new technologies, and rolling them themselves, and they've got this appetite for danger, again within their organization almost. Their risk taking organizations, right. They're all over the containers and the Kubernetes. The more traditional enterprises I think are still kicking the tires. They're still throwing out the occasional new project within the organization and saying, "Let's test the waters with this new feature "That we want to add to our main product", or "We've got something new, "Let's try containers and Kubernetes." They're certain, at least the ones that I speak to, certainly not at the phase where they're taking their legacy apps. >> HBO was using it for like traffic, identifying ingress, you mentioned that earlier, I mean basic stuff. Not a lot of heavy lifting, or is it? >> Well, I think the HBO, I mean ... How much they ran the season seven of Game of Thrones on Kubernetes. I mean, I'm sure there was some non-Kubernetes stuff in there as well, but it seemed like from the presentation pretty much, well, a lot of that stuff was running containers and Kubernetes, and lets be fair, when it comes to HBO, Game of Thrones is like their, it's their killer product at the end of the day, isn't it? And so they've taken a risk there with that. >> Yeah >> But again you know HBO, a rare... >> There's a lot of online viewers, by the way on that too. >> Yeah. >> With HBO Go. >> Oh, an insane number! But I would say compared to a traditional enterprise they're a risk taking organization. They live in the Cloud. They like living on the edge. They're willing to take risks with new technologies to push the product forward. >> Alright, so I want to get your guys' thoughts on a tweet I saw out there. "Think of Kubernetes as the colonel "For modern distributed systems. "It's not about zero ops, it's about op power tools "to unlock developer productivity." Craig McLuckie from Heptio mentioned that on stage. Really kind of rallying around Kubernetes. Thoughts on that quote? What does that mean? >> So I mean John, you know there was for a while people saying, "How do we deprecate? "Or even go to kind of noOps?" Absolutely, many of the keynotes talked about who's deploying them and who's running them. We're not talking about eliminating ops. Even when I can have a voice assistant help roll things out, they're still absolutely a major piece of who needs to run this, but the right things to the right part of the organization. >> Yeah, I think instead of using the word colonel maybe use the word Linux, you know. Looking at Kubernetes as the Linux of the Cloud, and that's not my term, I've heard other people say it. But it's open source for a start like Linux is, it's got a great thriving community of people contributing to it. You can fork it, you can do what ever you want with it, but if you're going to deploy a CloudNative application right now, then Kubernetes is that substrate. You've just got to look at what came out of re:Invent. So A-W-S is now offering a native Kubernetes hosted service, obviously Google does it, Azure does it with Microsoft. They're all picking up on this realizing that people deploying CloudNative apps, they're going to be deploying it on Kubernetes. >> Thoughts about Red Hat. I just saw Gabe Monroy, the keynote, Stu. Red Hat's contribution to hardening Kubernetes cannot be overstated. C-C OpenShift And we had Bryan Gracie on yesterday. I mean OpenShift, what a bet. Microsoft betting heavily on Kubernetes. Google obviously sees this as an opportunity. Multi-Cloud fantasies out there somewhere, but that's what customers are kind of asking for, not yet in tangible product, but this is interesting. You've got Red Hat, the king of the enterprise, OpenSource. >> Nigel: Absolutely, yeah. >> No debate about that. Microsoft and Google, old guard with Microsoft and then new guard in Google. Really if they don't throw a line at the main Cloud trend with Kubernetes, they could be left in the dust. So I see a lot of things at play. How is the Red Hat and the Kubernetes investment paying off? How do you guys see that playing out? Good strategic move, headroom to it? What comments and caller commentary on that? >> Well I think if you compare Red Hat to Microsoft, if you don't mind me doing that, Microsoft has a cash cow in Windows in the past and I think it quickly realized that the cash cow was not going to live forever, and they invested heavily in Azure. Red Hat live a lot, I guess as well, off support contracts and things like that, the Red Hat enterprise Linux. How long of a tail that has, I'm not sure. So certainly they're doing at least, they're looking in the right direction at least by investing heavily in Kubernetes. If they want to go in and be the enterprise's trusted Kubernetes partner, I think they've got a great story. They've contributed a ton to it. They're already in the door at most enterprises, and I think you couple those two things together if the enterprise is going to adopt Kubernetes at some point. I'm not saying they've go the best story, but they've got a pretty decent story. >> Alright, in the last minute I want to ask both you guys this question because it's been kind of on my mind, I've been thinking about it. Maybe I'm overstretching here but three day conference, one day to CloudNative, two days to Kubernetes, KubeCon. Why? More important? Growing community? CloudNative I think, would be probably stronger sessions. Is it because there's more emphasis on the Kubernetes? >> Kubernetes is the core, Kubernetes is what started the C-N-C-F. >> John: Yeah >> All the other projects really build off to it. I think it's pretty... >> It needs more attention. >> Kubernetes, I mean, while there's ... You know I love Kelsey's line this morning. He looked out at the audience he says, "I think everyone that's running Kubernetes "In the globe is here." So, there's jokes about how many people are actually running in production >> Yeah, they're probably here. >> So look, there's still so many people that are getting the Kubernetes 1-0-1. The whole CloudNative, all of these other projects are all building off of it. I think it's really straight forward on there. We even heard, do we call it the C-N-C-F? Do we rename it to something that's a little more Kubernetes focused? Because CloudNative gets talked about some, there's service mesh, absolutely Nigel, it was the buzz coming into the show. I hear those sessions are overflowing here. We didn't even get to talk about, there's like another alternative to Istio that's there. >> And Lou Tucker, by the way, affirmed that same thread yesterday about the service mesh. Nigel, final word for you on this segment. How big order of magnitude and important is Kubernetes? I mean given you've seen, talk about agent-ism in the old days, and all the ways that have come, that's been kind of incremental proving balls been moved down the field here and there. And some big chunk yardage, if you will, use this football analogy. How big, because I've seen Kubernetes just go from here to here. >> Yeah >> Really move the need along the community, it's galvanized. How important is Kubernetes, from an order of magnitude, when we look back a few years from now, what are we going to be saying? "Hey, remember KubeCon in 2017?" How important is Kubernetes? >> Well, can I say I think it's really early days, okay? And I like the analogy that it is the Linux of the Cloud or of CloudNative, okay? But I think there's danger in that as well because the world is changing so fast now. I mean Linux has lived for a very long time, okay. Will Kubernetes live that long or will it be replaced by something else? It probably will be, but I do feel these are early days, and I think it has got a long stretch ahead. A long stretch as in like... >> John: Yeah. >> Good four or five years. And within two to three years, you know, just about every organization in my opinion is going to have some Kubernetes in it. >> And the beginning signs of maturity's coming. Stack Wars too, all the vendors really trying to figure out, strategically it's like a 3-D chess match right now. Open source is kind of like arbiter of this, really good stuff. I think it's going to be super important. Thanks for the commentary. kicking off day two of Cube exclusive coverage here at KubeCon. CloudNativeCon was yesterday. Two days of KubeCon. We'll be back with more live coverage. From theCUBE, I'm John Furrier. Stu Miniman and Nigel Poulten after this short break. (light techno music)

>> Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE. Covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone. We're here live in San Francisco for theCUBE's exclusive two days of coverage for Cisco Systems' inaugural event called DevNet Create extension. DevNet their classic developer program, for the Cisco install base of network routers. Now going to the cloud, native, going to the developer where dev-ops and the enterprise are connecting. I'm John Furrier, my cohost Peter Burris. Next is Dan Kohn, who is the Executive Director of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF. Formerly known as Kubecon. Which is the event, Kubecon.io. Dan, great to see you. Executive Director, how's business, is going good? >> Fantastic! (John laughs) Yeah, six months ago we chatted at our last event in Seattle. And it's just amazing to see the progress since then. Projects members. >> It's been a whirlwind. Even I can't keep track. You guys are announcing all these new projects. What's the current count of projects that you guys have under the Cloud Native Compute Foundation? >> So we're up to 10. I should definitely start with the fact that Kubernetes is the anchor 10 in our original project. In a lot of ways, foundation was setup around that. And that project is just continuing to do incredibly well. Where it's one of the highest velocity projects in the history of open source. In terms of number of authors, number of commits, poll requests, issues. But now we have a constellation of other projects that are in support of that one. It can be used in a lot of different ways. >> John: Yeah. >> That we've been adding in. >> We had Craig McLuckie on earlier. Now he's with Heptio. Again, when he was doing that work, at Google, back in the days with what's his name from Microsoft now. >> Peter: Brendan Burns. >> Brendan Burns, yeah. >> Now it's an interesting question, where you say, oh, wait a minute, the three sort of key people behind Kubernetes, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, who's his co-founder at Heptio, then Brendan Burns, they all left Google. Is this a bad sign for the project and the technology? >> John: No, I don't think so. >> And we would say it's a spectacularly good sign. Now, if they had left and said, ah you know, containers, I'm going to do virtual machines. But in fact they said, there's such an enormous market for this. And to have Microsoft and Azure step in and say, we really want to invest in this space and we want to bring on one of the co-founders, Brendan. And for the other two co-founders, say, hey Google is making a huge investment. But we also think there's an opportunity for independent venture funded startup. >> Craig is completely passionate about this because there is an interoperability ethos that's always been around the open web. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> And certainly open source has the same ethos. Cloud Native brings an interesting thing, and it's clear now to people that there's not going to be one cloud winning them all. >> It's a multi-could world. >> Dan: Right. >> How is the Cloud Native Foundation floating in the open source world? Is it gravitating towards more infrastructure, more edge, software edge? Are you guys kind of in the middle? Are you guys the glue layer? How do you view that? >> Sure. So one way of looking at what we're doing is, helping to build a stack of software. That allows you to run your applications either on bare metal in your own data center or on any of the public clouds. Or hybrid solution where you're mixing back and forth. But the key idea is that all the core parts of that are open source. They're supported by multiple different vendors. And what that means is, you get to avoid lock-it. So today, Amazon web services has some of the most extraordinary engineering. They have all these great services that make it very easy to go onboard. But if you build your whole architecture around that, then you're stuck with AWS forever. And when time goes up, time to renegotiate your contract in a year or two, you're back again and don't have a lot of leverage. Where we think AWS is fantastic platform to run Kubernetes, to run our other projects on top of. But we don't think you want to lock-in to those services to such a degree. >> Okay, when I'm on, first of all, pretend I'm Amazon, I'm a competitive strategist, lock-in, I got to get you locked-in. I'm just going to run Kubernetes on Amazon. Why don't I just do that? >> We think that's a great solution. >> John: You do? >> Heptio and lots other folks make it very easy to run Kubernetes on Amazon. But we also think you should at least look at Kubernetes on Bluemix, on Google, on Azure. And know that in the future when you're negotiation comes up, even if you never leave, you at least threaten to leave. That you're not locked into that one vendor forever. >> So if you think about how the cloud industry structure is starting to layout, you knew we were going to have IAAS. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> SAS has been around for quite sometime. >> Dan: Right. >> The big question is what happens with that platform as a service. >> The developer world. >> Dan: Yeah. Some people think it's going to end up in the IAS element. >> Dan: Umhmm. Some people end up in the SAS. If it ends up in the IAS, you got the lock-in. Do you see a world going forward where developers have their own place, where they go and build and create software independent of either target but then add it to the various platforms. Is that a direction that you think this is all going to end up in? >> I do. Our view is that Heroku, which really invented this platform as a service concept or popularized it. You do, get push Heroku and magically your application's up. And then Cloud Foundry which came along and created a open source version of that. Those were two building blocks. But the Cloud Native essentially taking that scenario and saying, hey, that continuous integration, continuous deployment pipeline, that ability to deploy your software dozens of times per day, that's an absolute table ante for being a modern company. Not just a software company but arguably every company today needs to be doing software development like that. And then Cloud Native is a whole set of infrastructure around that to allow you to, not just have that environment in development but also to push it into production. >> So compare and contrast, based on your vision >> Dan: Umhmm. >> of how things are going to play out. A developer spends her time today doing this, and in three years, she's going to spend her time doing that. Kind of give us a sense of how >> Dan: Sure. >> you think it's going to play out. >> The simplest way to say it is that, Docker came along a few years ago, and was incredibly transformative technology for software development. It solved this really basic problem that, you hire a new employee and does it take her an entire day or entire week to get her environment together. Or can she just copy over the document container and be ready to go. And so I would argue it had the fastest uptake of any developer technology in history. But now when you have all those pieces running, okay, that's great in development, how do you get it in production? And my goal is that in a few years, hopefully much sooner, that those developers that are getting the container, they're getting the different pieces of microservices working. And then it's this tiny little YAML file that just says, here's the requirements for my application, here's what kind of redundancy it needs, what is backend databases, other sorts of things. And they're deploying it up. For most developers they can get out of that business of dev-ops. Of having to worry about all those issues. Your dev-ops team can be so much more efficient cuz Kubernetes and the related platform really enables that. >> I got to ask you, I just Tweeted cuz I had, make sure I captured it. I'm blown away by your success on the sponsorship participation. And usually it's a sign of opportunity. Because there's money making to be made, having the big vendors in there. But the growth of Kubernetes as you mentioned, all the success, we're well aware of that. But you got a lot going on. You're like got the tiger by the tail, your hair's blown back, you're running as hard as you can. Why are you guys successful? What is your gut? As executive director, you got to have the 20 mile stare but you also implement the here and now. >> Dan: Sure. >> How are you rationalizing the success? >> The most important point is, there's not some sort of magic formula, that CNCF has done or the Linux Foundation. And we're just so much better promoting or marketing it. At the end of the day, it really comes down to the developers behind Kubernetes. They've built a tool that tons and tons of people want to use. And that leverages 15 years of work that Google has done on containerization. Work that IBM and Docker and all of our other member companies, RedHat, have put together. And now, I think tiger by the tail is the right analogy. That we just happen to be, luckily, do have the technology and the constellation technology that a lot of folks want to do. The biggest thing we're trying to deal with is, some of the challenges around scaling. There's over 17 hundred authors. Individual developers contributed to Kubernetes in the last 12 months. Trying to figure out how can we get good reviews of all their codes, better documentation. >> There is a secret formula if you look at it. In away, relevance is one of them. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> Being relevant and being an awesome technology. But what I want get your thoughts in is, I looked at Kubernetes right out of the gate and said, hmm, will this be a MapReduced moment for Google. >> Dan: Yeah. >> And interesting enough, they didn't pull the same move. They didn't just let Cloud Air, walk away with or someone. >> Dan: Right, exactly. >> They made sure that if they preserved it. Google kind of let MapReduced >> Dan: Yeah, I think-- >> on the side of the road. >> Dan: No, no, I think this-- >> Cloud Air ran with it. >> Google had something that they replaced it with. I mean the -- >> SPAN is pretty damn good. >> And that's an interesting thing because in a world of strategy, across technology, and this is related to this, is that it used to be, you define a process, and then let's call it the end level process, and then you would go off and you make it obsolete because you had something that was more efficient, more effective. And then you license the old technology. And that way, the industry built capacity around the old technology and you had the new, more efficient technology that drove your business forward. And I think that, I'm not saying that's exactly, I'm not saying that Google did that, that's the tremendous >> Google knew. >> effect it will have. >> John: I have sources that tell me that. I investigated this story three years ago or maybe four, maybe three years ago. Google had conversations going up to the Eric Schmidt level, and Larry Page level, do we keep Kubernetes, do we open source it? And it went all the way to the top. And they almost wanted, they were afraid of MapReduced. Because MapReduced was a lost opportunity. Now they made it up but-- >> Now I would argue that there's a slightly subtler decision they had to make, where they have this internal system board, that is just tons of engineering and analysis and improvement has gone into it. They wrote Kubernetes as essentially next generation version of that. I think they kind of had four paths. Craig McLuckie was one of the key people behind that. Where they could have made it a proprietary service that if you're a customer of Google cloud, you get access to it. That's essentially what Amazon and Elastic Container Services today. Or they could have said, hey, we're going to open source it but we're still keep control of it. Essentially that's the path they went with the Go language. Where lots of people use it, lots of people contribute to it, but it's Google who decides at the end of the day, which direction it goes. Or they could have gone and created a Kubernetes Foundation. And if they'd gone to the Linux Foundation and said, we want to create a Kubernetes Foundation, they absolutely could have and that would have been a home for it. But when you look at all the complementary technologies that have come in, they would never have gone into a Kubernetes Foundation. So instead, they really chose the most open path of saying, no we want to have a Cloud Native Computing Foundation. Have Kubernetes be the anchor tenant for it. But then have a place that companies like Mesophere with Mesos and Docker with Docker Swarm and other partners can come in and agree on something. So today, we're really pleased to announce the container network interface, just got accepted as our 10th project. And that's used by those and also by Cloud Foundry. And then they can disagree on others, about the orchestration- >> So it's a liberating move, really, if you think about it. Because at the time this happened, there was a lot of land grab talk going on. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> Until Amazon was winning big the hockey stick was going up. >> Dan: Right. You saw the numbers, and financial performance. But there was a fear of lock-in. To your point. >> Dan: Right, exactly. >> Then Kubernetes provides a nice layer. And you guys as a group, are looking holistically and saying, choice and multi-cloud. Is that the vision? >> Definitely. But, I mean you can see, strategically why Google decided to do it. Because if you pick an open source platform, and say, hey, this is the best of breed approach. Now, you're actually willing to evaluate the cloud on what the prices are, the supplementary services, et cetera. Where before that, you might have just said, ah, AWS is the safe service, I'm going just go with that. >> But Kubernetes is an invasive technology. And I don't mean that in a bad way. (Dan laughs) >> When you decide to move with Kubernetes, you are foreclosing other options at your disposal. And so, I think what you're saying is that, Google wanted to ensure that it remained a consistent coherent thing. While at the same time, making it obvious to all those around them that also wanted to invest in it, that their investments were going to be safe and sound going forward. >> I think that's fair but on the other hand, I do want to say that very few companies have moved their entire business and all of their IT over to Kubernetes. >> Peter: Oh, I'm not saying that they would. >> We do recommend that they start with a stable service. >> Peter: But Meso and some of those other companies are now investing in Kubernetes as a platform. Or making a bet on Kubernetes, want to make sure that their bets are as good as their company is. >> Sure. But there are other orchestration plateforms still. So Kubernetes has plenty of competition. And our biggest competition of course is Enertia. Of folks not changing into anything. >> I got to ask you a question. So Leonard, our producer is just telling me, Kubernetes is boring per Craig McLuckie. So Craig said earlier in theCUBE today, Kubernetes needs to be boring. He said his biggest problem with Kubernetes is it's too exciting right now. >> Dan: That's great. Now what he means by that is, he's kind of making a play on words but his point is, it should be obstracted away. >> Dan: Yeah. In terms of Kubernetes. But that's a problem you have. It's too exciting. >> Dan: Umhmm. What's your reaction to his comment that Kubernetes needs to be boring. >> He and I did a little Google trends comparison of Kubernetes and TensorFlow, which is another open source project out of Google. TensorFlow is something like three or four acts. And artificial intelligence is just so much more interesting and exciting. And yeah, I certainly would love to see a situation. We have this metaphor for Linux, with the Linux Foundation. That we describe it as plumbing. Where it's so intrinsic to almost every piece of technology in existence. And like plumbing, you'll get very upset when if it stops working. And you'll know it and you'll complain. But there's a huge piece of what we're trying to do which is the infrastructure to make things work. >> Here's an idea. Marketing idea. Just call it AI for containers. >> Dan: That's good. >> It'll be the hottest thing on the planet. >> Dan, great to-- >> Peter: Probably be more be more exciting. >> Dan, great to see you. Congratulations on your success. >> Yeah. So I do want to just make a quick mention December sixth through eighth is CloudNativeCon and KubeCon. It's our biggest annual conference. We're looking to actually triple in size from Seattle to three thousand people or more. We have every expert coming in. Michelle Noorali and Kelsey Hightower are the co-chairs and are going to be speaking there. We would love to see a lot of you guys. >> John: In Austin. >> In Austin. >> We hope you'll be there. >> TheCUBE will be there. >> We'll definitely be there. >> Dan: As well to ah, >> We've been to the inaugural >> Dan: Exactly. >> show for KubeCon and Cloud Native conference. We'll defintely be there. December sixth through the eighth, in December, in Austin. Great time of the year to be in Texas. Congratulations on all your success. And as Kubernetes and nine other projects continue to get traction. Still exciting times. And as they say, we live in interesting times. (Dan laughs) This is theCUBE with more interesting, exciting, not boring stuff coming back from the inaugural event here at Cisco DevNet Create. I'm John Ferrier, Peter Burris. Stay with us.

extracting the signal from the noise it's the cube covering vmworld 2015 brought to you by vmware and its ecosystem sponsors now your host John furrier and Dave vellante okay welcome back everyone we are here live in San Francisco for vmworld 2015 SiliconANGLE media's the cube star flagship program we go out to the event and extract the students from noise i'm john furry the founders looking angle to of my coast and partner david lonte co-founder Wikibon calm slipping angles research are my next guess is sanjay poonen executive vice president general manager of vmware's end-user computing great to see you again welcome back to the cube John's pleasure to be here but I got to say one thing I'm waiting for the day when you have the tie and dave has the non-tidal I mean seriously you gotta quit that purple tile no I'm just getting a pleasure to be on your show I happy to wear tie but people would know it's phony baloney but I'm happy cape looks good d looks good in the neck but I'm California gotta be chillax a little bit here are you relaxed you feeling good I'm feeling great okay so you get a big body through your anniversary at vm work this month Wow excited to be here at the show so choice so give us the state of the union au CSAP to vmware now two years air wash huge acquisition we saw your an event you had here in San Francisco with all the top customers you have big name box big time player is working with you guys cloud needs a theme that you guys are really driving hard what's this all about where are we right now in your group and user computing is all the rage developer attraction and DevOps kind of connects the dots where are we with this yeah no I think it's been a fabulous two years we've hired a fantastic team I talked about this in my last show your some of the new people that joined us summative on Bob Jules no awasum were some of the people we promoted from within kit Kohlberg Eric Freiburg and then many of the people in the field we really really put together I think the best end-user computing team in the industry bar none it always starts to the people you know my people values where it's all started secondly we really started to innovate on product that differentiates us from the competition and made the bold move and mobile because mobile is the new desktop we joked internally that you could end user computing without a strategy you got that Josh yes yeah you know so that's in essence what we've done to be invisible and taking up the complexities away that's really the key will you yeah absolutely and making yourself relevant to where the world is going in this digitization of the workplace so we see this as a phenomenal opportunity for us to become the de facto brand in a Switzerland set of proposition you've got apple iOS you've got google android about windows microsoft OS 10 VMware's propositions via Switzerland type of company that can manage and secure all of those devices in very transparent fashion then lead and lead with that mobile story right I mean isn't that part of it yeah no absolutely mobile is the new desktop so it does become the key outcome the people are looking for and our proposition that we talked about last year working at the speed of life being able to go all the way from desktop to Tesla many of those things are really starting to resonate now as we talked to CIOs and so you know 10 at 2010 when we first did the cube six years ago Palmer its laid out the whole manifesto and user computing had a lot of disparate parts some of gods and have left explain to the folks out there and clarify the positioning of end-user computing visa V all the turmoil in the marketplace with customers cloud has got obviously hybrid cloud people I try to get their arms around that virtualization a lot of plumbing going on with SD and Isis and growth there a lot of stuff going on underneath your layer that's going to affect you how do you manage that clarify the positioning and then talk about how you respond to the growth that's going to come out of underneath you and the infrastructure yeah I think Paul Maritz had it right down he's one of the visionaries of our time and as he talked in 2010 that was around the time we actually coined the term workspaces the inwards 12 companies had coined the term mobile workspace and now many of those technologies are coming to bear so much of the demos that Paul actually noah was here at the time Steve Herod showed you know I'm actually sort of sitting on the shoulders of many of those giants in terms of driving this so the time has come now where the desktop virtualization market now is less costly and less complex so we've taken cost and complexity out and that's why now we're taking market share from Citrix and other players in that market in the mobile place we weren't moving fast enough we acquire the leader AirWatch in mobile security and we've now created an ecosystem out of that of the leading application providers that are all partnering at a Salesforce workday Adobe SI p everyone in the app space the telco providers players like a TMT vodafone singtel partnering with us and then the security players like palo alto networks of all embraced AirWatch and then we actually created some blue technologies that really bring the desktop and the mobile together like identity management identity as a service is becoming one of those very critical like critical items that's a life blood that ties desktop and mobile together because you're your device now becomes your second factor of authentication right you can use your fingerprint or retina scan all of these now really coming in a mature fashion so we're seeing huge growth out of particularly AirWatch side I think sixty percent last last quarter path to profitability I believe in 2016 no Pat's talking about it Carl's talking about at jonathan's talking about Joe Tucci's talk of everybody's talking about your business so what's driving that growth you just talked about that ecosystem that's got to be a lot of the leverage but maybe help us unpack deck wrote a little bit I think it has been and I'm biased so obviously next to VMware being acquired by emc one of the best acquisitions of modern you know last 18 months in enterprise software we were diligent just the same way EMC a treated VMware to be somewhat separate and independent we kept AirWatch fairly dependent for the first six months and gradually began the integration because there was a motion that Alain de Biron John Marshall had in the context the way they ran their what's that we did not want to break and then over time in the second half of last year in the first half of this year we began to get two parts of VMware that we do well in to play the value side of big deals so we start to participate in elas now where larger conversations with customers the big accounts the volume site are the transaction partners our channel partners 75,000 partners of VMware now have an opportunity to take this mobile solution as a door-opener the CIO but remember now we're bringing together horizon on the desktop site air watching the mobile side with glue types of technologies like identity so the proposition just got like one plus one equals like 111 and that's a huge often you mentioned he'll I mean huge year renewal year in 2016 so that's going to be a tailwind it cloud-based solution around one of the reasons with why I watch it was there with a leader in cloud-based mobile John and Alan were very smart and creating a cloud-based solution not to say that they can't deploy on premise but its cloud first so think Salesforce in a world where everyone else looks like a siebel so we were very astute basically saying we want to look at a way by which the subscription revenue starts to become a flywheel yeah so I want to ask you about business mobility that's a theme that you guys have been big big on your ace application configuration I think it's called or yeah happy creating for the enterprise you had Salesforce box cisco workday and a bunch of other partners showing nsx identity the hard stuff the stuff that you will think about i was there at the event and I want you to compare that visa V some news at hit today with apple and cisco partnering on iOS traffic and prioritizing traffic for iOS apps on cisco hardware yeah which is essentially deep packet inspection looking at the routes and giving them a fast lane if you will that seems to be the trend this consumerization where new Apple examples saying okay differentiate with apple stuff versus Android are the business people thinking about that that way are we looking at nsx innovating under the hood explain the consumerization of business mobility why that's relevant and how hard it is when some things that you guys are doing we coined the term john consumer simple meets and a prize secure and you hear about that more tomorrow in my keynote which i encourage all your viewers to come to tomorrow the clock at nine o'clock there's some very special in huge news hint at and little bit but let's bring that together because who is one of the best at consumers simplicity today Apple okay and we basically are Google and much of what they do too but we took basically a strong partnership with apple and dialed it further and and his apples talked about publicly they have a group of enterprise partners where one among a very few 30 40 50 that they're working with in the EMM space and we investigated meaning enterprise mobile manager okay guy and as we we did that we also then looked at all the apps players that were very key to this mobile cloud ecosystem box you know native people exactly these are folks who are building a cloud-based mobile set of applications and we signed all of them up to this need of integration called app config with enterprise that the device operating system vendors like Apple and Google and us invented now what's happening is you're starting to see that ecosystem getting stronger so actually it's awesome because the apps that were announced today in the cisco apple announcement were WebEx spark the same applications i build laughs and fig yes for so we actually copying you guys well no they actually joining the ecosystem so i think it's awesome when you have an IBM in the ecosystem of vmware in the ecosystem now is cisco on the ecosystem it's amazing there you know there's lots of players we partner with SI PE last you're gonna see us doing more with them so our goal is to ensure that the lead players whether it's an applications world whether it's the networking world what's the security world start plugging into appropriate platform I remember the proposition of vmware though is to be Switzerland so we have to build strong relationships with apple with Google and Microsoft Windows 10 because they're all viable ecosystems in the post-pc world well of course you want to be neutral because you want to have you know rising tide as you said but your announcement also highlighted box docusign was in their AT&T you talk about some cool things I can split outspent reports by having an iphone so the rant random example but the but it highlights a new way of doing things right but i thought i asked her the question those are cloud native companies mean box workday mean they were born in the cloud if you will but what about the enterprises that aren't they have a lot of legacy that's a problem right so it's not easy to be cloud- talk about the challenges there and the opportunities how you guys are addressed i love that word because the each side of that coin is a challenging the opportunity so when we go to traditional enterprises they have client server applications or all browser applications that they want us to real deployment and you'll hear my keynote tomorrow a very key phrase any application on any device so you've got a client-server application and old browser application or native mobile app we can deliver into any device you pick your device you've got a traditional windows laptop at in client a mac OS and Android and iOS or a tesla with running some kind of you know maybe android inside it we can deploy those applications on any device and that requires the combination the technology we have from a horizon and AirWatch so what do we do in those traditional applications we virtualize them we can either virtualize the desktop or the app and deploy them onto at incline we think john the future is thin client computing where you know your glass that you present on is going to be like the glass the Corning makes us projectable and this phone becomes your remote control into your entire life so I love this conversation because there's so much talk in this business Gardner has bimodal IT IDC has the third platform and and but what you just described is doesn't doesn't say old stuff over here and new stuff over there it says extend the client-server apps the 19-year old legacy apps and allow them to participate in this cloud native cloud native doesn't mean throw away the old stuff and start with a blank piece of paper I wonder if you could first of all do you agree with that and what if you could talk about that as a strategy it's a very important strategy because if you are a new company like an uber or Netflix you don't have legacy infrastructure you can start completely new on a cloud native all cloud apps but for the majority of global 2000 companies they have existing applications client-server primarily some running in all browsers ie8 ie9 and you've got to bring those apps to the new world so we see the world moving clearly to mobile and html5 long term but there's still going to be many of those applications 3d applications for example you go to many of our large manufacturing customers they've got jet engine parts or parts of various different manufacturing processes that are still not yet html5 or mobile apps so bringing those old world of apps to a Chromebook or to an iOS device is something we can magically do but for these native mobile apps you want to make it one touch so the benefit of what we had with app configures now with one-touch secured by air watch you can now automatically get access to Salesforce or DocuSign or box this is the best of both worlds for the new apps single touch easy seamless access those apps for the old world world of apps you can seamlessly virtualize them in other words abstract them and then send them over to the ecosystem is critical in all of this and and a lot of times we see this trend toward vertical integration we watch what Oracle's do and you see what Amazon's doing the e così i'm hearing the ecosystem is still vital to your strategy absolutely and the ecosystem takes various different forms the device operating system players the system integrators the security players people like Paul all tanks and then in this world apps players are really really important I talked last year about SI p we had many new apps in that and you know just a small little hint tomorrow at nine o'clock you're going to see a major ecosystem player on stage with us never in the history of the world I don't want to blow the cat out of the bag and I want every one of your viewers gonna be big my lap gonna be huge so you got to come there okay so ecosystem just real quick profitable good economics people making money how's that economics work yeah you know via MERS all about ecosystem right you go to the show floor and vmworld has got thousands including companies that compete with us what you got to do is ensure that you're open and you allow even competitors to integrate with you ok I've got competitors that I compete with in my part of the business they've got to integrate with vsphere vice versa I've got to make sure that I can play in a heterogeneous world with a variety of companies that might compete in the STD sea world and part of the magic of doing this is to ensure that the ecosystem is proliferating but you have some platform player that's what's made vm VMware successful 600,000 greatest infrastructure company balls out I have box again to wrap here so I have a final question then I have a final final question because I need to get two questions in first api api f occasion as a term that we've been kicking around the openstack cloud community coined by google's Craig mcluckie on the cube it's been kicking around but API making your api's available if you overdo it you could cause some problems but you're mentioning interacting with of all these apps your take on that and the second final final question is how do you view DevOps do you care you're looking down at it saying go faster or you're agnostic what are you guys doing specifically around this API ification trend yeah i mean the devops in particular they're both of a related questions let me cover them in sort of a quick sequence everything that we should do as a platform you're a platform if you create a service-oriented architecture that allows others to plug into you so when we talk about app config for the enterprise part of what we did was created an API set with the device operating system players like Apple Google is an open it's an open standard that all EMS can can embrace and now then we natively integrate sales force or workday or essay p into that so the api's are absolutely important in every layer of vmware whether it's the desktop side was the mobile side with its SDDC we live by those principle as a platform company no doubt then as you think about DevOps there's aspects of now the management complexity in the cloud world that needs rethought because this isn't systems management the old way in which the client-server were looked at it DevOps really has a very key way which you can go from tested Evra production where you've got multiple clouds you've got federated clouds and we've got to make sure and this is something that we use internally a lot of our AirWatch solutions that are deployed because they're cloud first have DevOps built into them build an integration built between AirWatch and the management tools of vmware their customers who asked us to integrate in the service now this whole management platform the next generation mobile cloud management platform is going to have DevOps at the key at the heart of it and we think that's a huge opportunity for VMware and for our ecosystem so yes or no question senior management's behind DevOps we are absolutely behind everything that drives in the ecosystem DevOps is one key part of it but there are many other aspects this is one key part where the management platform is going and we're very very committed to making that I know you got to run to your meeting thanks so much Sanjay put in the general man and your EVP of then use a computer big announcement tomorrow watch his keynote tomorrow at 9am I nair on SiliconANGLE TV the cube is going to be covering all the keynotes then keep watching we'll be right back more with live coverage from San Francisco vmworld 2015 this is the cube with John fair and Dave vellante we'll be right back thanks John