>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban Cloud brought to you by Silicon Angle. Welcome back to the live segment of the Cuban cloud. I'm Dave, along with my co host, John Ferrier. John Rose is here. He's the global C T o Dell Technologies. John, great to see you as always, Really appreciate >>it. Absolutely good to know. >>Hey, so we're gonna talk edge, you know, the the edge, it's it's estimated. It's a multi multi trillion dollar opportunity, but it's a highly fragmented, very complex. I mean, it comprises from autonomous vehicles and windmills, even retail stores outer space. And it's so it brings in a lot of really gnarly technical issues that we want to pick your brain on. Let me start with just what to you is edge. How do you think about >>it? Yeah, I think I mean, I've been saying for a while that edges the when you reconstitute Ike back out in the real world. You know, for 10 years we've been sucking it out of the real world, taking it out of factories, you know, nobody has an email server under their desk anymore. On that was because we could put it in data centers and cloud public clouds, and you know that that's been a a good journey. And then we realized, Wait a minute, all the data actually was being created out in the real world. And a lot of the actions that have to come from that data have to happen in real time in the real world. And so we realized we actually had toe reconstitute a nightie capacity out near where the data is created, consumed and utilized. And, you know, that turns out to be smart cities, smart factories. You know, uh, we're dealing with military apparatus. What you're saying, how do you put, you know, edges in tow, warfighting theaters or first responder environments? It's really anywhere that data exists that needs to be processed and understood and acted on. That isn't in a data center. So it's kind of one of these things. Defining edge is easier to find. What it isn't. It's anywhere that you're going to have. I t capacity that isn't aggregated into a public or private cloud data center. That seems to be the answer. So >>follow. Follow that. Follow the data. And so you've got these big issue, of course, is late and see people saying, Well, some applications or some use cases like autonomous vehicles. You have to make the decision locally. Others you can you can send back. And you, Kamal, is there some kind of magic algorithm the technical people used to figure out? You know what, the right approaches? Yeah, >>the good news is math still works and way spent a lot of time thinking about why you build on edge. You know, not all things belong at the edge. Let's just get that out of the way. And so we started thinking about what does belong at the edge, and it turns out there's four things you need. You know, if you have a real time responsiveness in the full closed loop of processing data, you might want to put it in an edge. But then you have to define real time, and real time varies. You know, real time might be one millisecond. It might be 30 milliseconds. It might be 50 milliseconds. It turns out that it's 50 milliseconds. You probably could do that in a co located data center pretty far away from those devices. One millisecond you better be doing it on the device itself. And so so the Leighton see around real time processing matters. And, you know, the other reasons interesting enough to do edge actually don't have to do with real time crossing they have to do with. There's so much data being created at the edge that if you just blow it all the way across the Internet, you'll overwhelm the Internets. We have need toe pre process and post process data and control the flow across the world. The third one is the I T. O T boundary that we all know. That was the I O t. Thing that we were dealing with for a long time. And the fourth, which is the fascinating one, is it's actually a place where you might want to inject your security boundaries, because security tends to be a huge problem and connected things because they're kind of dumb and kind of simple and kind of exposed. And if you protect them on the other end of the Internet, the surface area of protecting is enormous, so there's a big shift basically move security functions to the average. I think Gardner made up a term for called Sassy. You know, it's a pretty enabled edge, but these are the four big ones. We've actually tested that for probably about a year with customers. And it turns out that, you know, seems to hold If it's one of those four things you might want to think about an edge of it isn't it probably doesn't belong in >>it. John. I want to get your thoughts on that point. The security things huge. We talked about that last time at Del Tech World when we did an interview with the Cube. But now look at what's happened. Over the past few months, we've been having a lot of investigative reporting here at Silicon angle on the notion of misinformation, not just fake news. Everyone talks about that with the election, but misinformation as a vulnerability because you have now edge devices that need to be secured. But I can send misinformation to devices. So, you know, faking news could be fake data say, Hey, Tesla, drive off the road or, you know, do this on the other thing. So you gotta have the vulnerabilities looked at and it could be everything. Data is one of them. Leighton. See secure. Is there a chip on the device? Could you share your vision on how you see that being handled? Cause it's a huge >>problem. Yeah, this is this is a big deal because, you know, what you're describing is the fact that if data is everything, the flow of data ultimately turns into the flow of information that knowledge and wisdom and action. And if you pollute the data, if you could compromise it the most rudimentary levels by I don't know, putting bad data into a sensor or tricking the sensor which lots of people can dio or simulating a sensor, you can actually distort things like a I algorithms. You can introduce bias into them and then that's a That's a real problem. The solution to it isn't making the sensors smarter. There's this weird Catch 22 when you sense arise the world, you know you have ah, you know, finite amount of power and budget and the making sensors fatter and more complex is actually the wrong direction. So edges have materialized from that security dimension is an interesting augment to those connected things. And so imagine a world where you know your sensor is creating data and maybe have hundreds or thousands of sensors that air flowing into an edge compute layer and the edge compute layer isn't just aggregating it. It's putting context on it. It's metadata that it's adding to the system saying, Hey, that particular stream of telemetry came from this device, and I'm watching that device and Aiken score it and understand whether it's been compromised or whether it's trustworthy or whether it's a risky device and is that all flows into the metadata world the the overall understanding of not just the data itself, but where did it come from? Is it likely to be trustworthy? Should you score it higher or lower in your neural net to basically manipulate your algorithm? These kind of things were really sophisticated and powerful tools to protect against this kind of injection of false information at the sensor, but you could never do that at a sensor. You have to do it in a place that has more compute capacity and is more able to kind of enriched the data and enhance it. So that's why we think edges are important in that fourth characteristic of they aren't the security system of the sensor itself. But they're the way to make sure that there's integrity in the sense arised world before it reaches the Internet before it reaches the cloud data centers. >>So access to that metadata is access to the metadata is critical, and it's gonna be it's gonna be near real time, if not real time, right? >>Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the important thing is, Well, I'll tell you this. You know, if you haven't figured this out by looking at cybersecurity issues, you know, compromising from the authoritative metadata is a really good compromise. If you could get that, you can manipulate things that a scale you've never imagined. Well, in this case, if the metadata is actually authoritatively controlled by the edge note the edge note is processing is determining whether or not this is trustworthy or not. Those edge nodes are not $5 parts, their servers, their higher end systems. And you can inject a lot more sophisticated security technology and you can have hardware root of trust. You can have, you know, mawr advanced. PK I in it, you can have a I engines watching the behavior of it, and again, you'd never do that in a sensor. But if you do it at the first step into the overall data pipeline, which is really where the edges materializing, you can do much more sophisticated things to the data. But you can also protect that thing at a level that you'd never be able to do to protect a smart lightbulb. A thermostat in your house? >>Uh, yes. So give us the playbook on how you see the evolution of the this mark. I'll see these air key foundational things, a distributed network and it's a you know I o t trends into industrial i o t vice versa. As a software becomes critical, what is the programming model to build the modern applications is something that I know. You guys talk to Michael Dell about this in the Cuban, everyone, your companies as well as everyone else. Its software define everything these days, right? So what is the software framework? How did people code on this? What's the application aware viewpoint on this? >>Yeah, this is, uh, that's unfortunately it's a very complex area that's got a lot of dimensions to it. Let me let me walk you through a couple of them in terms of what is the software framework for for For the edge. The first is that we have to separate edge platforms from the actual edge workload today too many of the edge dialogues or this amorphous blob of code running on an appliance. We call that an edge, and the reality is that thing is actually doing two things. It's, ah, platform of compute out in the real world and it's some kind of extension of the cloud data pipeline of the cloud Operating model. Instance, he added, A software probably is containerized code sitting on that edge platform. Our first principle about the software world is we have to separate those two things. You do not build your cloud your edge platform co mingled with the thing that runs on it. That's like building your app into the OS. That's just dumb user space. Colonel, you keep those two things separate. We have Thio start to enforce that discipline in the software model at the edges. The first principle, the second is we have to recognize that the edges are are probably best implemented in ways that don't require a lot of human intervention. You know, humans air bad when it comes to really complex distributed systems. And so what we're finding is that most of the code being pushed into production benefits from using things like kubernetes or container orchestration or even functional frameworks like, you know, the server list fast type models because those low code architectures generally our interface with via AP, eyes through CCD pipelines without a lot of human touch on it. And it turns out that, you know, those actually worked reasonably well because the edges, when you look at them in production, the code actually doesn't change very often, they kind of do singular things relatively well over a period of time. And if you can make that a fully automated function by basically taking all of the human intervention away from it, and if you can program it through low code interfaces or through automated interfaces, you take a lot of the risk out of the human intervention piece of this type environment. We all know that you know most of the errors and conditions that break things are not because the technology fails it because it's because of human being touches it. So in the software paradigm, we're big fans of more modern software paradigms that have a lot less touch from human beings and a lot more automation being applied to the edge. The last thing I'll leave you with, though, is we do have a problem with some of the edge software architectures today because what happened early in the i o t world is people invented kind of new edge software platforms. And we were involved in these, you know, edge X foundry, mobile edge acts, a crane. Oh, and those were very important because they gave you a set of functions and capabilities of the edge that you kind of needed in the early days. Our long term vision, though for edge software, is that it really needs to be the same code base that we're using in data centers and public clouds. It needs to be the same cloud stack the same orchestration level, the same automation level, because what you're really doing at the edge is not something that spoke. You're taking a piece of your data pipeline and you're pushing it to the edge and the other pieces are living in private data centers and public clouds, and you like they all operate under the same framework. So we're big believers in, like pushing kubernetes orchestration all the way to the edge, pushing the same fast layer all the way to the edge. And don't create a bespoke world of the edge making an extension of the multi cloud software framework >>even though the underlying the underlying hardware might change the microprocessor, GPU might change GP or whatever it is. Uh, >>by the way, that that's a really good reason to use these modern framework because the energies compute where it's not always next 86 underneath it, programming down at the OS level and traditional languages has an awful lot of hardware dependencies. We need to separate that because we're gonna have a lot of arm. We're gonna have a lot of accelerators a lot of deep. Use a lot of other stuff out there. And so the software has to be modern and able to support header genius computer, which a lot of these new frameworks do quite well, John. >>Thanks. Thanks so much for for coming on, Really? Spending some time with us and you always a great guest to really appreciate it. >>Going to be a great stuff >>of a technical edge. Ongoing room. Dave, this is gonna be a great topic. It's a clubhouse room for us. Well, technical edge section every time. Really. Thanks >>again, Jon. Jon Rose. Okay, so now we're gonna We're gonna move to the second part of our of our technical edge discussion. Chris Wolf is here. He leads the advanced architecture group at VM Ware. And that really means So Chris's looks >>at I >>think it's three years out is kind of his time. Arise. And so, you know, advanced architecture, Er and yeah. So really excited to have you here. Chris, can you hear us? >>Okay. Uh, >>can Great. Right. Great to see you again. >>Great >>to see you. Thanks for coming on. Really appreciate it. >>So >>we're talking about the edge you're talking about the things that you see way set it up is a multi trillion dollar opportunity. It's It's defined all over the place. Uh, Joey joke. It's Could be a windmill. You know, it could be a retail store. It could be something in outer space. Its's It's it's, you know, whatever is defined A factory, a military installation, etcetera. How do you look at the edge. And And how do you think about the technical evolution? >>Yeah, I think it is. It was interesting listening to John, and I would say we're very well aligned there. You know, we also would see the edge is really the place where data is created, processed and are consumed. And I think what's interesting here is that you have a number off challenges in that edges are different. So, like John was talking about kubernetes. And there's there's multiple different kubernetes open source projects that are trying to address thes different edge use cases, whether it's K three s or Cubbage or open your it or super edge. And I mean the list goes on and on, and the reason that you see this conflict of projects is multiple reasons. You have a platform that's not really designed to supported computing, which kubernetes is designed for data center infrastructure. Uh, first on then you have these different environments where you have some edge sites that have connectivity to the cloud, and you have some websites that just simply don't write whether it's an oil rig or a cruise ship. You have all these different use cases, so What we're seeing is you can't just say this is our edge platform and, you know, go consume it because it won't work. You actually have to have multiple flavors of your edge platform and decide. You know what? You should time first. From a market perspective, I >>was gonna ask you great to have you on. We've had many chest on the Cube during when we actually would go to events and be on the credit. But we appreciate you coming into our virtual editorial event will be doing more of these things is our software will be put in the work to do kind of a clubhouse model. We get these talks going and make them really valuable. But this one is important because one of the things that's come up all day and we kind of introduced earlier to come back every time is the standardization openness of how open source is going to extend out this this interoperability kind of vibe. And then the second theme is and we were kind of like the U S side stack come throwback to the old days. Uh, talk about Cooper days is that next layer, but then also what is going to be the programming model for modern applications? Okay, with the edge being obviously a key part of it. What's your take on that vision? Because that's a complex area certain a lot of a lot of software to be written, still to come, some stuff that need to be written today as well. So what's your view on How do you programs on the edge? >>Yeah, it's a It's a great question, John and I would say, with Cove it We have seen some examples of organizations that have been successful when they had already built an edge for the expectation of change. So when you have a truly software to find edge, you can make some of these rapid pivots quite quickly, you know. Example was Vanderbilt University had to put 1000 hospital beds in a parking garage, and they needed dynamic network and security to be able to accommodate that. You know, we had a lab testing company that had to roll out 400 testing sites in a matter of weeks. So when you can start tohave first and foremost, think about the edge as being our edge. Agility is being defined as you know, what is the speed of software? How quickly can I push updates? How quickly can I transform my application posture or my security posture in lieu of these types of events is super important. Now, if then if we walk that back, you know, to your point on open source, you know, we see open source is really, uh you know, the key enabler for driving edge innovation and driving in I S V ecosystem around that edge Innovation. You know, we mentioned kubernetes, but there's other really important projects that we're already seeing strong traction in the edge. You know, projects such as edge X foundry is seeing significant growth in China. That is, the core ejects foundry was about giving you ah, pass for some of your I o T aps and services. Another one that's quite interesting is the open source faith project in the Linux Foundation. And fate is really addressing a melody edge through a Federated M L model, which we think is the going to be the long term dominant model for localized machine learning training as we continue to see massive scale out to these edge sites, >>right? So I wonder if you could You could pick up on that. I mean, in in thinking about ai influencing at the edge. Um, how do you see that? That evolving? Uh, maybe You know what, Z? Maybe you could We could double click on the architecture that you guys see. Uh, progressing. >>Yeah, Yeah. Right now we're doing some really good work. A zai mentioned with the Fate project. We're one of the key contributors to the project. Today. We see that you need to expand the breath of contributors to these types of projects. For starters, uh, some of these, what we've seen is sometimes the early momentum starts in China because there is a lot of innovation associated with the edge there, and now it starts to be pulled a bit further West. So when you look at Federated Learning, we do believe that the emergence of five g I's not doesn't really help you to centralized data. It really creates the more opportunity to create, put more data and more places. So that's, you know, that's the first challenge that you have. But then when you look at Federated learning in general, I'd say there's two challenges that we still have to overcome organizations that have very sophisticated data. Science practices are really well versed here, and I'd say they're at the forefront of some of these innovations. But that's 1% of enterprises today. We have to start looking at about solutions for the 99% of enterprises. And I'd say even VM Ware partners such as Microsoft Azure Cognitive Services as an example. They've been addressing ML for the 99%. I say That's a That's a positive development. When you look in the open source community, it's one thing to build a platform, right? Look, we love to talk about platforms. That's the easy part. But it's the APS that run on that platform in the services that run on that platform that drive adoption. So the work that we're incubating in the VM, or CTO office is not just about building platforms, but it's about building the applications that are needed by say that 99% of enterprises to drive that adoption. >>So if you if you carry that through that, I infer from that Chris that the developers are ultimately gonna kind of win the edge or define the edge Um, How do you see that From their >>perspective? Yeah, >>I think its way. I like to look at this. I like to call a pragmatic Dev ops where the winning formula is actually giving the developer the core services that they need using the native tools and the native AP eyes that they prefer and that is predominantly open source. It would some cloud services as they start to come to the edge as well. But then, beyond that, there's no reason that I t operations can't have the tools that they prefer to use. A swell. So we see this coming together of two worlds where I t operations has to think even for differently about edge computing, where it's not enough to assume that I t has full control of all of these different devices and sensors and things that exists at the edge. It doesn't happen. Often times it's the lines of business that air directly. Deploying these types of infrastructure solutions or application services is a better phrase and connecting them to the networks at the edge. So what does this mean From a nightie operations perspective? We need tohave, dynamic discovery capabilities and more policy and automation that can allow the developers to have the velocity they want but still have that consistency of security, agility, networking and all of the other hard stuff that somebody has to solve. And you can have the best of both worlds here. >>So if Amazon turned the data center into an A P I and then the traditional, you know, vendors sort of caught up or catching up and trying to do in the same premise is the edge one big happy I Is it coming from the cloud? Is it coming from the on Prem World? How do you see that evolving? >>Yes, that's the question and races on. Yeah, but it doesn't. It doesn't have to be exclusive in one way or another. The VM Ware perspective is that, you know, we can have a consistent platform for open source, a consistent platform for cloud services. And I think the key here is this. If you look at the partnerships we've been driving, you know, we've on boarded Amazon rds onto our platform. We announced the tech preview of Azure Arc sequel database as a service on our platform as well. In addition, toe everything we're doing with open source. So the way that we're looking at this is you don't wanna make a bet on an edge appliance with one cloud provider. Because what happens if you have a business partner that says I am a line to Google or on the line to AWS? So I want to use this open source. Our philosophy is to virtualized the edge so that software can dictate, you know, organizations velocity at the end of the day. >>Yeah. So, Chris, you come on, you're you're an analyst at Gartner. You know us. Everything is a zero sum game, but it's but But life is not like that, right? I mean, there's so much of an incremental opportunity, especially at the edge. I mean, the numbers are mind boggling when when you look at it, >>I I agree wholeheartedly. And I think you're seeing a maturity in the vendor landscape to where we know we can't solve all the problems ourselves and nobody can. So we have to partner, and we have to to your earlier point on a P. I s. We have to build external interfaces in tow, our platforms to make it very easy for customers have choice around ice vendors, partners and so on. >>So, Chris, I gotta ask you since you run the advanced technology group in charge of what's going on there, will there be a ship and focus on mawr ships at the edge with that girl singer going over to intel? Um, good to see Oh, shit, so to speak. Um, all kidding aside, but, you know, patch leaving big news around bm where I saw some of your tweets and you laid out there was a nice tribute, pat, but that's gonna be cool. That's gonna be a didn't tell. Maybe it's more more advanced stuff there. >>Yeah, I think >>for people pats staying on the VMRO board and to me it's it's really think about it. I mean, Pat was part of the team that brought us the X 86 right and to come back to Intel as the CEO. It's really the perfect book end to his career. So we're really sad to see him go. Can't blame him. Of course it's it's a It's a nice chapter for Pat, so totally understand that. And we prior to pack going to Intel, we announced major partnerships within video last year, where we've been doing a lot of work with >>arm. So >>thio us again. We see all of this is opportunity, and a lot of the advanced development projects were running right now in the CTO office is about expanding that ecosystem in terms of how vendors can participate, whether you're running an application on arm, whether it's running on X 86 or whatever, it's running on what comes next, including a variety of hardware accelerators. >>So is it really? Is that really irrelevant to you? I mean, you heard John Rose talk about that because it's all containerized is it is. It is a technologies. Is it truly irrelevant? What processor is underneath? And what underlying hardware architectures there are? >>No, it's not. You know it's funny, right? Because we always want to say these things like, Well, it's just a commodity, but it's not. You didn't then be asking the hardware vendors Thio pack up their balls and go home because there's just nothing nothing left to do, and we're seeing actually quite the opposite where there's this emergence and variety of so many hardware accelerators. So even from an innovation perspective, for us. We're looking at ways to increase the velocity by which organizations can take advantage of these different specialized hardware components, because that's that's going to continue to be a race. But the real key is to make it seamless that an application could take advantage of these benefits without having to go out and buy all of this different hardware on a per application basis. >>But if you do make bets, you can optimize for that architecture, true or not, I mean, our estimate is that the you know the number of wafer is coming out of arm based, you know, platforms is 10 x x 86. And so it appears that, you know, from a cost standpoint, that's that's got some real hard decisions to make. Or maybe maybe they're easy decisions, I don't know. But so you have to make bets, Do you not as a technologist and try to optimize for one of those architectures, even though you have to hedge those bets? >>Yeah, >>we do. It really boils down to use cases and seeing, you know, what do you need for a particular use case like, you know, you mentioned arm, you know, There's a lot of arm out at the edge and on smaller form factor devices. Not so much in the traditional enterprise data center today. So our bets and a lot of the focus there has been on those types of devices. And again, it's it's really the It's about timing, right? The customer demand versus when we need to make a particular move from an innovation >>perspective. It's my final question for you as we wrap up our day here with Great Cuban Cloud Day. What is the most important stories in in the cloud tech world, edge and or cloud? And you think people should be paying attention to that will matter most of them over the next few years. >>Wow, that's a huge question. How much time do we have? Not not enough. A >>architect. Architectural things. They gotta focus on a lot of people looking at this cove it saying I got to come out with a growth strategy obvious and clear, obvious things to see Cloud >>Yeah, yeah, let me let me break it down this way. I think the most important thing that people have to focus on >>is deciding How >>do they when they build architectures. What does the reliance on cloud services Native Cloud Services so far more proprietary services versus open source technologies such as kubernetes and the SV ecosystem around kubernetes. You know, one is an investment in flexibility and control, lots of management and for your intellectual property, right where Maybe I'm building this application in the cloud today. But tomorrow I have to run it out at the edge. Or I do an acquisition that I just wasn't expecting, or I just simply don't know. Sure way. Sure hope that cova doesn't come around again or something like it, right as we get past this and navigate this today. But architect ng for the expectation of change is really important and having flexibility of round your intellectual property, including flexibility to be able to deploy and run on different clouds, especially as you build up your different partnerships. That's really key. So building a discipline to say you know what >>this is >>database as a service, it's never going to define who I am is a business. It's something I have to do is an I T organization. I'm consuming that from the cloud This part of the application sacked that defines who I am is a business. My active team is building this with kubernetes. And I'm gonna maintain more flexibility around that intellectual property. The strategic discipline to operate this way among many of >>enterprise customers >>just hasn't gotten there yet. But I think that's going to be a key inflection point as we start to see. You know, these hybrid architectures continue to mature. >>Hey, Chris. Great stuff, man. Really appreciate you coming on the cube and participate in the Cuban cloud. Thank you for your perspectives. >>Great. Thank you very much. Always a pleasure >>to see you. >>Thank you, everybody for watching this ends the Cuban Cloud Day. Volonte and John Furry. All these sessions gonna be available on demand. All the write ups will hit silicon angle calm. So check that out. We'll have links to this site up there and really appreciate you know, you attending our our first virtual editorial >>event again? >>There's day Volonte for John Ferrier in the entire Cube and Cuba and Cloud Team >>Q 3 65. Thanks >>for watching. Mhm

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel and AWS. Yeah, okay. Welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage here. Reinvent 2020 for a W s amazing content happening here within across the industry on digital transformation and more, more important than ever in the public sector has been mawr impacted by anyone during the cove and pandemic. And we're here remotely with the Cube Virtual because of the pandemic. Got a great guest, Kim, a jurist. She's the leader on the U. S. Education, state and local government for a W s public sector Kim, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Remotely, at least we get to have a remote interview. >>Well, thank you for taking the time. This is This is our world these days, so it's good to be able to connect. >>Well, thanks for coming on. We're doing some specialty programming around public sector, mainly because it's such an important area. Uh, Andy Jassy Esquina, which is for the best conference at large at reinvent talks broadly, but I think it highlights what's going on in your world and that is this facing the truth. Um, this digital transformation has been forced upon us. It's accelerated and it's get busy, busy building or get busy figuring out how it might unwind and mawr education virtual remote if we >>didn't >>have video conference, and this could have been a disaster even further, but certainly has impacted everybody in the government education. How is it impacting share with us? What's going on? >>You know, I think that difficult partisans. When we turned on the news early days there in Cove it it was clear that students weren't learning and citizens couldn't get in contact with their government to ask for support. Um, I would say it was that moment in time where the technical debt that whether your state, local or education, you had to quickly realized that you need to connect with your students and your citizens. But I take a look at how quickly they were able to turn across the US Many of them realized what usually took years, literally turned into innovating overnight to support students as well as those filing for on unemployment claims. And I think that's what we heard a lot of, and those were some of the opportunities that Amazon really took, uh, to our customers said, Hey, we can help you solve these problems with great services such as connect >>you know, Connect came up in the keynote multiple times, and he really spend time on that as a as a disruption slash enabler for value. Can you share how cloud has scaled up some of your customers? I know connects, been pretty prominent in the public sector for Covic support and really has changed in saves lives in many cases. Can you share an example of how it's worked out? >>Absolutely. I mean, Rhode Island is is a great example. They use Amazon connect. They helped the state literally address this massive surgeon of unemployment insurance applications due to Cova 19. But literally the call times and the vines were cut down in What they were able to do is answer the call, not just have it be on a fast busy or a disconnect. Whether it was Department of Labor at Rhode Island, whether it was the state of Kentucky or the state of West Virginia, all those authorities use had to deal with that surge, and they were able to do it successfully and literally, in some cases, overnight to support citizens. That's how quickly they were able to innovate and hit those call centers, Um, effectively. But it's not just about the call center, because keep in mind they would go into those call centers with connect. They were able to actually take those calls from home, and we saw that in education as well. Take a look at L. A unified school district. What they had to do to quickly transition from in person training to supporting these students remotely. They had to do it overnight, and they use connect their asses well, not only to support the students, the teachers or the staff, but they took that opportunity to really continue educating and continue serving. >>You know, one of the things I was talking anti about in my one on one interview before reinvent was necessity is the mother of all invention in these days, and I think that came from a quote from one of your customers, like interviewed when asked, You know how the innovation strategy come about, and that's what they said. They said we needed it really bad, and we had to move quickly and then Andy said in his keynote that everything is on full display right now, meaning that the pandemic is forced one and you can see who's winning and who's not based on where they are in the cloud journey. So have to ask you leaderships a big part of this. What is the trend that you're seeing within your world because, you know, government not known for moving fast. And this is a speed game at this point. Healthcare. A big part of that. You got education. Government. What's >>the >>leadership mindset on innovating right now? And can you share because, yeah, you got some easy, you know, examples. Now the point is, hey, way have connect with people were like productivity opportunity that's now the new normal. So even in life does come back. There's new new things that have been discovered. Is that resonating with your your customers? And can you share the leadership mindset? >>Absolutely. So make no mistake. It was never a question of if it was a question of when the pandemic clearly is accelerating it. But, you know, we've been working with over 6500 government agencies and collaborating with them to really focus on some of their mission critical, um called based services. So and this is the new normal. They recognize it. And it's the foundation that during the pandemic that it's been said to say, Hey, we're going to push and we're gonna push quicker because they were actually able to demonstrate that they could do it. I'll give you an example. It's It's a heartbreaking one from my perspective. Being a mom, um, l. A. County Department of Child and Family Services, They operated their analog child protection hotline. Now the numbers are are unfortunate and staggering. But when you took a look at the peak before the pandemic, the call center received as many as 21,000 reports of child abuse and neglect in a month. During those pick times, up to 100 staff members would log in and literally take 120 back to back calls per hour. Now, when you think about that legacy environment with Amazon connect, they were able to continue the service, continue the support to help these Children and available 24 7, and they were able to do it from their homes. So e mean it gives me chills, just thinking about three unfortunate situations. But they were able to quickly move and and continue to support. Yeah, >>and the thing to I want to just bring up also had a customer I interviewed from Canada. I think they were partner with a censure. They had unemployment checks, they couldn't get out, and entitlement things that were literally checks and connect stood up that in like, record time. He was convinced. He's like he was kind of Amazon fan, but he was kind of still out of Amazon. He was like, I'm convinced we're gonna use Amazon going forward. It was a tipping point for him. There's a lot of these tipping points going on right now. This has been a big theme of this reinvent so far. Yeah, cloud transition, two full cloud value. This is the new normal What? What what what can clients get when they have budget or trying to get budget when they say the benefit? The clouds are what? >>Well, I mean again, use another use case. I'll go back to another example in L. A county. So when you think about l. A county itself, um, I won't give you the exact numbers because I don't know him off the top, but approximately 10 million residents and employs over 100,000 staff again. Look at the cost savings that they saw. So, you know, technical data is a problem. Being able to invest is a challenge because of budgets, but they were able to save 60% in one year from there on prem environment and licensing costs. But the cost is one piece. If you could take 17% fewer calls and you're solving those challenges by using a i N M l. Through the technology of what they were gathering through those calls, it made a huge impact and improved their service to their citizens. So you know it. The cost savings air there. And there are so many examples that states air, recognizing that they need to move quicker because they could take advantage of those costs, especially with some of the budget challenges we're going to see across the U. S. >>And the machine learning examples are off the charts. So, Kim, I gotta ask, you going forward now in reinvent what's the big focus for you and your teams and your customers because you guys are very customer focused. You're working backers from the customers. We hear that on and on what is going on in your customer base? One of the priorities, >>um, priorities for us will always remain on the mission to which our customers are focusing on. If we think about education, the question is, how are they re imagining the the delivery and the success in this new world that we're dealing with? So we'll continue to work and innovate with our partners and with amazing All right, a text that are in our business take a look at blackboard, right? They were able to scale 50 times their normal capacity globally, literally within 24 hours they're looking at How do they continue to innovate to serve? We're gonna work with K through 12 through academic medical centers and research, because when you think about what we need is we need to find that vaccine we need to find the ability to treat and serve. We're focused on those missions with the states, the research and the education teams. >>It's been unusual year learning is changing remote learning, remote work, the workforce, the workplace, the workloads. They're all changing. Onda clouds a big part of it. Um, final question for you. What's the take away for reinvent this year means different. You mentioned some of those highlights. What's the big take away for your audience? >>I think for state local education is it's available. It's now, and they have to serve their students and citizens quit. Um, what they've been able to do in the cloud again? A zay said at the start of the interview. They can now do overnight within minutes and hours and and support their citizens. And they have to do it quickly. So, >>uh, coyote to coyote goodness for the state and local governments to >>absolutely it's going to continue. And I think the important part is focused on the opportunity of innovating and supporting the mission >>Can Great to see you. Thanks for the insight. Thanks for the update. Appreciate it. We'll be following it. A lot of great successes. You guys have been having the Cuban involved in a bunch of them and we'll continue to follow the transformation. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you. Enjoy Sena. >>Okay. This is the Cube Virtual. I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching more coverage. Walter Wall reinvent 2020 Virtual. Thanks for watching. Yeah,

>>Aziz. Things have changed and transformed with public cloud. So has our approach to the business is really changing the conversation from what your I t requirements to where your business drivers and we've seen the success off educating the customer of the way H P s educated us and articulating the value proposition with an on Prem consumption model >>within advise x long term, the company does see that things were gonna be moving to selling everything as a service. And so the deal that I did with Mohawk Valley was critical in making the next step. >>We were to hospitals that had recently merged. The challenge we were faced with was to combine for Elektronik medical records software packages down to a single product within a one year timeframe. >>Her Mohawk Valley. As we said, you know, Hey, you want to run this on Prem today with these servers and you're gonna spend more for the cloud? Why don't we look at a holistic solution? And if we give you that cloud experience with H. P Green Lake, then we believe that we can help solve your business challenges and do it more cost effectively than you could do in the public cloud >>way were very skeptical of HP Green Lake initially. But then I saw it was so much more licensing, customization and support all bundled at the end of the day. Our CFO wants a predictable cost model and 100% uptime on the system. Green Lake gave us all that The >>implementation process was very successful and actually behind the customer's expectations. >>Our CEO has not stopped breaking about it ever since. He's just so proud of the performance and uptime that we've achieved. >>It was easier than anticipated and we're executing and they're looking to buy other hospitals. And their intention is we're just gonna hold him right in the Green Lake model because it's easy and we know we can execute predictably and with Green Lake, they can build as they grow, not have Tobias. They grow. >>Cova 19 virus hit our organization very hard, but any of the additional features that we needed to activate we were able to do that without any time delays. We just stood up. Any additional resource is we needed, and we were often running just like that >>with regard to remote workers. Additional requirements to the infrastructure, adding beds, patient requests, HP Greenlee provided both the flexibility and agility, so the customer then had basically zero downtime through the pandemic. There's >>never a time when the clinicians don't have access to the tools they need >>to do their job. Mohawk Valley Health System has helped improve patient care, and that means the world to me. >>We've been a partner now with HPD over 35 years. We've seen them grow. We've seen them transform. They're committed to everything as a service and they're backing up with training. They're backing up with investment, and they're backing up with winds with customers. Their vision is clear and it's impressive and we're all in. We believe it's the right strategy.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. Everyone welcome back to the cubes. Coverage of AWS Reinvent Amazon Web services Annual conference theme. Cuba's normally there in person. This year we can't be. It's a virtual event. This is the Cube virtual. I'm your host for the Cube. John Ferrier Tresh Damn Kroger, VP of G M and G m of the high performance computing team at Intel is here in the Cube until a big part of the cube every year. Trish, thank you for coming on Were remote. We can't be in person. Um, good to see you. >>Good to see you. >>I'm really impressed with Reinvent Has grown from kind of small show eight years ago to now kind of a bellwether. And and every year it's the same story. More scale, more performance, lower prices. This is kind of the intel cadence that we've seen of Intel over the years. But high performance computing, which >>has been >>around for a while, has gotten much more mainstream thinking because it's applying now to scale. So I want to get your thoughts and and just set the table real quick. What is high performance computing mean these days from Intel? And has that relate to what people are experiencing >>e high performance computing? Um, yes, it's been traditionally known as something that's, you know, in the in the labs and the government, you know, not used widely. But high performance computing is truly just changing the world is what you can dio Cove. It is a great example of where they've taken high performance computing to speed up the discovery of drugs and vaccines for or cova 19. They use it every day. You know, whether it's making Pampers or Clorox boxes. So they are those bottles so that they, when you drop them, they don't break, um, to designing airplanes and designing, um, Caterpillar tractors. So it is pervasive throughout. And, um, sometimes people don't realize that high performance computing infrastructure is kind of that basics that you use whenever you need to do something with dense compute. >>So what some examples of workloads can you just share? I mean, obviously Xeon processor. We've covered that many times, but I mean from a workload standpoint, what kind of workloads are high performance computing kind of related or unable or ideal for that's out there, >>right? Z on scalable processors are the foundation for high performance computing. If you look at what most people run high performance computing on its see on, and I think that it's so broad. So if you look at seismic processing or molecular dynamics for the drug discovery type work or if you think about, um, open foam for fluid dynamics or, um, you know, different financial trade service, you know, frequency, fats, frequency trading or low. I can't even think of that word. But anyway, trading is very common using high performance computing. I mean, it's just used pervasively throughout. >>Yeah, and you're seeing you're seeing the cloud of clarification of that. I want to get your thoughts. The next question is, you know it's not just Intel hardware. You mentioned Zeon, but HBC in AWS were here. It reinvent. Can you share how that plays out? What's your what's your What's your take on that? Because it's not just hard work and you just take them into explain relationship, >>right? So we definitely have seen the growth of high performance computing in the cloud over the last couple of years. We've talked about this for, you know, probably a decade, and we've definitely seen that shift. And with AWS, we have this wonderful partnership where Intel is not only bringing the hardware like you say, the Z on scalable processors, but we're also having accelerators and then on that whole software ecosystem where we work closely with our I s V and O S v partners. And when we bring, um, not only compilers but also analyzers in our full to tool suite so people can move between an on Prem situation Thio Public cloud like aws. Um, seamlessly. >>So talk about the developer impact. As I say, it's that learning show reinvent. There's a lot of developers here. I'll see mainstream you're seeing, you know, obviously the born in the cloud. But now you're seeing large scale enterprises and big businesses. You mentioned financial services from high frequency trading to oil and gas. Every vertical has a need for cloud and and what, you should be traditionally on premises compute. So you have. You're kind of connecting those dots here with AWS. Um, what is some of the developer angle here? Because they're in the cloud to they want to develop. How does how does the developer, um, engage with you guys on HPC in Amazon, >>Right? Well, there's there's a couple ways. I mean, so we do work with some of our partners eso that they could help move those workloads to the cloud. So an example is 69 which recently helped a customer successfully port a customized version of the in car models for prediction across scales. So they chose the C 59 18 x large instance type because this is what really deliver the highest performance and the lowest price for compute ratio. Another great example is P. K. I, which is a partner out of the UK, has worked with our customers to implement AI in retail and other segments running on Intel Instances of the EEC too. So I think these air just so you could have people help you migrate your workloads into the cloud. But then also, one of the great things I would like to talk about is, um a ws has come out with the parallel cluster, which is an Intel select solution, which really helps, um, ease that transition from on Prem to cloud. >>That's awesome. Um, let's get into that parallel cluster and you mentioned Intel Select Solution program. There's been some buzz on that. Can you take a minute to explain what that is? I >>mean, the HBC has, AH reputation of being hard, and the whole philosophy between behind the Intel Select solution is to make it easier for our customers to run HBC workloads in the cloud or on Prem and with E Intel Select Solution. It's also about scaling your job across a large number of notes, so we've made it a significant investment into the full stack. So this is from the silicon level all the way up to the application level so that we ensure that your application runs best on Intel and we bring together all the everything that you need into. Basically, it's a reference design. So it's a recipe where we jointly created it with our I, C, P and O S V partners and our open source environment for all the different relevant workloads. And so Amazon Web Services is the first cloud service provider to actually verify a service such as Intel Select Solution and this is this is amazing because this truly means that somebody can say it works today on Prem, and I know it will work exactly the same in AWS Cloud. >>That's huge. And I wanna just call that out because I think it's worth noting. You guys just don't throw this around like in the industry like doing these kind of partnerships. Intel's been pretty hard core on the quality, and so having a cloud service provider kind of go through the thing, it's really notable you mentioned parallel cluster um, deal. What is Can you just tie that together? Because if I get this right, the Intel, uh, select solution with the cloud service provider Amazon is a reference designed for how to go on premise or edge or revenue. It is to cloud in and out of cloud. How does this parallel cluster project fit into all this? Can you just unpack that a little bit? >>Right. So the parallel cluster basically, um, it's a parallel cluster until select solution. And there's three instances that we're featuring with the Intel Xeon Scalable processor, which gives you a variety of compute characteristics. So the select solution gives you the compute, the storage, the memory the networking that you need. You know, it says the specifications for what you need to run a non optimal way. And then a WS has allowed us to take some of the C five or some of the instances, and we are on. Three different instances were on the C five, in instance. But that's for your compute optimize work clothes. We're on the in five instance and that's really for a balanced between higher memory per core ratio. And then you have your are five and instance at a W s that's really targeted for that memory intensive workloads. And so all of these are accessible within the single A. W s parallel cholesterol environment on bits at scale. And it's really you're choosing of what you want to take and do. And then on top of that, the they're enabled with the next generation AWS Nitro system, which delivers 100 gigabits of networking for the HBC workloads. So that is huge for HPC. >>I was gonna get to the Nitro is my one of my top questions. Thanks >>for >>thanks for clarifying that. You know, I'm old enough to remember the old days when you have the intel inside the PC a shell of, ah box and create all that great productivity value. But with cloud, it's almost like we're seeing that again. You just hit on some key points you have. Yeah, this is HPC is like memory storage. You've got networking a compute. All these things kind of all kind of working together. If I get that right, you just kind of laid that out there. And it's not an intel Has to be intel. Everything. Your intel inside the cloud now and on premise, which is the There is no on premise anymore. It's cloud operations. If I get this right because you're essentially bridging the two worlds with the chips, you bring on premise which could be edge a big edge or small legend in cloud. Is that right? I mean, this is kind of where this is >>going. Yeah, so I mean, what I think about so a lot of them. The usages for HBC in the cloud is burst capacity. Most HBC centers are 100% not 100% because they have to do maintenance, but 95% utilized, so there is no more space. And so when you have a need to do a larger run or you need thio, you know, have something done quickly you burst to the cloud. That's just what you need to do now. I mean, or you want to try out different instances. So you want to see whether maybe that memory intensive workload would work better? Maybe in kind of that are five in instance, and that gives you that opportunity to see and also, you know, maybe what you want to purchase. So truly, we're entering this hybrid cloud bottle where you can't, um the demand for high performance computing is so large that you've got to be able to burst to the cloud. >>I think you guys got it right. I'm really impressed. And I like what I'm seeing. And I think you talked about earlier the top of the interview, government labs and whatnot. I think those are the early adopters because when they need more power and they usually don't have a lot of big budgets, a little max out and then go to the cloud Whether it's, you know, computing, you know what's going on in the ocean and climate change are all these things that they work on that need massive compute and power. That's a a pretext to enterprise. So if you can't connect the dots, you're kind of right in line with what we're seeing. So super impressive. Thanks for sharing that. Final thoughts on this is that performance. So Okay, the next question is, OK, all great. You're looking good off the tee or looking down the road. Clear path to success in the future. How does the performance compare in the cloud versus on premise? >>It could be well, and that's one of the great things about the Intel select solution because we have optimized that reference designed so that you can get the performance you're used to on Prem in the AWS Cloud. And so that is what's so cool honestly, about this opportunity So we can help you know, that small and medium business that doesn't maybe have this resource is or even those industries that do. And they know they're already a reference using that modeling SIM reference design, and they can now just burst to the cloud and it will work. But the performance they expect >>Trish, great to have you on great insight. Thanks for sharing all the great goodness from Intel and the A W s final thoughts on the on the partnership. We're not in person. And by the way, Intel usually has a huge presence. The booth is usually right behind the cube stage, which you guys sponsor. Thank you very much greater. Always partner with you. Great party. You sponsor the replay, which is always great, and it's always great party and great partnership. Good content. We're not there this year. What's the relationship like? And you take a minute to explain your final thoughts on a Amazon Web services and intel. >>Yeah, I know we have, Ah, Long term partnership 14 plus year partnership with AWS. And I mean, I think it's with the your, um taking Intel Select solution. It's going to be even a richer partnership we're gonna have in the future. So I'm thrilled that I have the opportunity to talk about it and really talk about how excited I am to be able Thio bring Mawr HBC into the world. It's all about the democratization of HBC because HBC changes the world >>well. Tricia, congratulations on the select program with AWS and the first cloud service provider really is a nice directional indicator of what's gonna happen. Futures laid out. Of course. Intel's in front. Thank you for coming. I appreciate it. >>Oh, thank you, John. >>Okay, that's the cubes. Virtual coverage Cube. Virtual. We're not in person. Aws reinvent 2020 is virtual. Three weeks were over the next three weeks, we're gonna bring you coverage. Of course. Cube Live in studio in Palo Alto will be covering a lot of the news. Stay with us from or coverage after this short break. Thank you.

>>Hello everyone. This is Dave Vellante, and I want to welcome you to the cubes presentation of accelerating automation with dev net in this special program, we're going to explore how to accelerate digital transformation and how the global pandemic is changing the way we work and the kinds of work that we do, the cube has pulled together experts from Cisco dev net. Now dev net is essentially Cisco as code. I've said many times in the cube, but in my opinion, it's the most impressive initiative coming out of any established enterprise infrastructure company. What Cisco has done brilliantly with dev net is to create an API economy by leveraging its large infrastructure portfolio and its ecosystem. But the linchpin of dev net is the army of trained Cisco engineers, including those with the elite CC I E designation. Now dev net was conceived to train people on how to code infrastructure and develop applications in integrations. It's a platform to create new value and automation is a key to that. Creativity. Now let's kick things off with the architect of dev net senior vice president in general manager of Cisco's dev net and CX ecosystem success. Susie, we roam around the globe presenting accelerating automation with damnit brought to you by Cisco. >>Hello and welcome to the cube. I'm Sean for a year host. We've got a great conversation, a virtual event, accelerating automation with dev net, Cisco dev net. And of course we got the Cisco brain trust here, our cube alumni, Susie wee vice president, senior vice president GM, and also CTO of Cisco dev net and ecosystem success CX all that great stuff. Many Wade Lee, who's the director, senior director of dev net certifications, Eric field, director of developer advocacy, Susie Mandy, Eric. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you, John. So we're not in first. We don't, can't be at the dev net zone. We can't be on site doing dev net creative, all the great stuff we've been doing over the past few years where virtual the cube virtual. Thanks for coming on. Uh, Susie, I gotta ask you because you know, we've been talking years ago when you started this mission and just the success you've had has been awesome, but dev net create has brought on a whole nother connective tissue to the dev net community. This is what this ties into the theme of accelerating automation with dev net, because you said to me, I think four years ago, everything should be a service or X AAS as it's called and automation plays a critical role. Um, could you please share your vision because this is really important and still only five to 10% of the enterprises have containerized things. So there's a huge growth curve coming with developing and programmability. What's your, what's your vision? >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what we know is that as more and more businesses are >>Coming online is, I mean, they're all online, but as they're growing into the cloud is they're growing in new areas. As we're dealing with security is everyone's dealing with the pandemic. There's so many things going on. Uh, but what happens is there's an infrastructure that all of this is built on and that infrastructure has networking. It has security, it has all of your compute and everything that's in there. And what matters is how can you take a business application and tie it to that infrastructure? How can you take, you know, customer data? How can you take business applications? How can you connect up the world securely and then be able to, you know, really satisfy everything that businesses need. And in order to do that, you know, the whole new tool that we've always talked about is that the network is programmable. The infrastructure is programmable and you don't need just apps riding on top, but now they get to use all of that power of the infrastructure to perform even better. And in order to get there, what you need to do is automate everything. You can't configure networks manually. You can't be manually figuring out policies, but you want to use that agile infrastructure in which you can really use automation. You can rise to higher level business processes and tie all of that up and down the staff by leveraging automation. >>You know, I remember a few years ago when dev net created for start a, I interviewed Todd Nightingale and we were talking about Meraki, you know, not to get in the weeds, but you know, switches and hubs and wireless. But if you look at what we were talking about, then this is kind of what's going on now. And we were just recently, I think our last physical event was a Cisco, um, uh, Europe in Barcelona before all the COVID hit. And you had this massive cloud surgeon scale happening going on, right when the pandemic hit. And even now more than ever the cloud scale, the modern apps, the momentum hasn't stopped because there's more pressure now to continue addressing more innovation at scale because the pressure to do that, um, cause the business stay alive. And to get your thoughts on, um, what's going on in your world because you were there in person now we're six months in scale is huge. >>We are. Yeah, absolutely. And what happened is as all of our customers, as businesses around the world, as we ourselves all dealt with, how do we run a business from home? You know, how do we keep people safe? How do we keep people at home and how do we work? And then it turns out, you know, business keeps rolling, but we've had to automate even more because you have to go home and then figure out how from home, can I make sure that my it infrastructure is automated out from home? Can I make sure that every employee is out there and working safely and securely, you know, things like call center workers, which had to go into physical locations and be in kind of, you know, just, you know, blocked off rooms to really be secure with their company's information. They had to work from home. >>So we had to extend business applications to people's homes, uh, in countries like, you know, well around the world, but also in India where it was actually not, you know, not, they wouldn't let, they didn't have rules to let people work from home in these areas. So then what had to do was automate everything and make sure that we could administer, you know, all of our customers could administer these systems from home. So that put extra stress on automation. It put extra stress on our customer's digital transformation and it just forced them to, you know, automate digitally, transform quicker. And they had to, because you couldn't just go into a server room and tweak your servers, you had to figure out how to automate all of that. And we're still all in that environment today. >>Now one of the hottest trends before the pandemic was observability, uh, Coobernetti's serve, uh, microservices. So those things, again, all dev ops and, you know, have you guys got some acquisitions, you about thousand eyes? Um, um, you've got a new one you just bought, um, recently port shift to raise the game in security Cooper and all these microservices. So observability super hot, but then people go work at home. As you mentioned, how do you observe, what are you observing? The network is under a huge pressure. I mean, it's crashing on people's zooms and WebExes and, uh, education, huge amount of network pressure. How are people adapting to this and the app side? How are you guys looking at the what's being programmed? What are some of the things that you're seeing with use cases around this program? Ability, challenge and observability challenges. It's a huge deal. >>Yeah, absolutely. And, um, you know, going back to Todd Nightingale, right. You know, back when we talked to Todd before he had Meraki and he had designed this simplicity, this ease of use this cloud managed, you know, doing everything from one central place and now he has Cisco's entire enterprise and cloud business. So he is now applying that at that bigger, um, at that bigger scale for Cisco and for our customers. And he is building in the observability and the dashboards and the automation and the API APIs into all of it. Um, but when we take a look at what our customers needed is again, they had to build it all in. Um, they have to build in and what happened was how your network was doing, how secure your infrastructure was, how well you could enable people to work from home and how well you could reach customers. >>All of that used to be an it conversation. It became a CEO and a board level conversation. So all of a sudden CEOs were actually calling on the heads of it and the CIO and saying, you know, how's our VPN connectivity is everybody working from home? How many people are connected and able to work and what's their productivity. So all of a sudden, all these things that were really infrastructure, it stuff became a board level conversation. And, you know, once again, at first, everybody was panicked and just figuring out how to get people working. But now what we've seen in all of our customers is that they are now building in automation and digital transformation and these architectures, and that gives them a chance to build in that observability, you know, looking for those events, the dashboards, you know, so it really has, has been fantastic to see what our customers are doing and what our partners are doing to really rise to that next level. >>Cause you know, you got to go, but real quick, um, describe what accelerating automation with dev net means. Well, you've >>Been falling, you know, we've been working together on dev net and the vision of the infrastructure programmability and everything for quite some time. And the thing that's really happened is yes, you need to automate, but yes, it takes people to do that and you need the right skill sets and the programmability. So a networker can't be a networker. A networker has to be a network automation developer. And so it is about people and it is about bringing infrastructure expertise together with software expertise and letting people rumblings are definite community has risen to this challenge. Um, people have jumped in, they've gotten their certifications. We have thousands of people getting certified. Uh, you know, we have, you know, Cisco getting certified. We have individuals, we have partners, you know, they're just really rising to the occasion. So accelerate, accelerating automation while it is about going digital. It's also about people rising to the level of, you know, being able to put infrastructure and software expertise together to enable this next chapter of business applications of, you know, cloud directed businesses and cloud growth. So it actually is about people just as much as it is about automation and technology. >>We got dev net created right around the corner, virtual unfortunate won't be in person, but we'll be virtual. Susie. Thank you for your time. We're going to dig into those people, challenges with Mandy and Eric. Thank you for coming on. I know you've got to go, but stay with us. We're going to dig in with Mandy and Eric. >>Thanks. Thank you so much. Have fun. Thanks John. >>Okay. Mandy, you heard, uh, Susie is about people and one of the things that's close to your heart and you've been driving is, uh, as senior director of dev net certifications, um, is getting people leveled up. I mean the demand for skills, cybersecurity network, programmability automation, network design solution architect, cloud multicloud design. These are new skills that are needed. Can you give us the update on what you're doing to help people get into the acceleration of automation game? >>Oh yes, absolutely. The, you know, what we've been seeing is a lot of those business drivers that Susie was mentioning, those are, what's accelerating a lot of the technology changes and that's creating new job roles or new needs on existing job roles where they need new skills. We are seeing customers, partners, people in our community really starting to look at, you know, things like DevSecOps engineer, network, automation, engineer, network, automation, developer, which Susie mentioned and looking at how these fit into their organization, the problems that they solve in their organization. And then how do people build the skills to be able to take on these new job roles or add that job role to their current scope and broaden out and take on new challenges. >>Eric, I want to go to you for a quick second on this, um, um, piece of getting the certifications. Um, first, before you get started, describe what your role is as director developer advocacy, because that's always changing and evolving. What's the state of it now because with COVID people are working at home, they have more time to contact, switch and get some certifications and that they can code more. What's your >>Absolutely. So it's interesting. It definitely is changing a lot. A lot of our historically a lot of focus for my team has been on those outward events. So going to the Devin that creates the Cisco lives and helping the community connect and to help share tech mountain technical information with them, um, doing hands on workshops and really getting people into how do you really start solving these problems? Um, so that's had to pivot quite a bit. Um, obviously Cisco live us. We pivoted very quickly to a virtual event when, when conditions changed and we're able to actually connect as we found out with a much larger audience. So, you know, as opposed to in person where you're bound by the parameters of, you know, how big the convention center is, uh, we were actually able to reach a worldwide audience with our, uh, our definite data that was kind of attached on to Cisco live. >>And we got great feedback from the audience that now we were actually able to get that same enablement out to so many more people that otherwise might not have been able to make it. Um, but to your broader question of, you know, what my team does. So that's one piece of it is getting that information out to the community. So as part of that, there's a lot of other things we do as well. We were always helping out build new sandboxes and your learning labs, things like that, that they can come and get whenever they're looking for it out on a dev net site. And then my team also looks after communities such as the Cisco learning network where this there's a huge community that has historically been there to support people working on their Cisco certifications. We've seen a huge shift now in that group, that all of the people that have been there for years are now looking at the domain certifications and helping other people that are trying to get on board with programmability. They're taking a lot of those same community enablement skills and propping up the community with, you know, helping you answer questions, helping provide content. They've moved now into the dump space as well, and are helping people with that service or what it's great seeing the community come along and really see that. Okay. >>I ask you on the trends around automation, what skills and what developer patterns are you seeing with automation? Are, is there anything in particular, obviously network automation has been around for a long time. Cisco has been leader in that, but as you move up, the stack as modern applications are building, do you see any patterns or trends around what is accelerating automation? What are people learning? >>Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned a observability was big before COVID and we actually really saw that amplified during COVID. So a lot of people have come to us looking for insights. How can I get that better observability, uh, now that we need it? Well, we're virtual. Um, so that's actually been a huge uptake and we've seen a lot of people that weren't necessarily out looking for things before that are now figuring out how can I do this at scale? I think one good example that, uh, Susie was talking about the VPN example, and we actually had a number SES in the Cisco community that had customers dealing with that very thing where they very quickly had to ramp up. And one in particular actually wrote a bunch of automation to go out and measure all of the different parameters that it departments might care about, about their firewalls, things that you do normally look at me old days, you would size your firewalls based on, you know, assuming a certain number of people working from home. >>And when that number went to a hundred percent things like licenses started coming into play, where they needed to make sure they have the right capacity in their platforms that they weren't necessarily designed for. So one of the STDs actually wrote a bunch of code to go out, use some open source tooling, to monitor and alert on these things and then published it. So the whole community code could go out and get a copy of it, try it out their own environment. And we saw a lot of interest around that in trying to figure out, okay, now I can take that and I can adapt it to what I need to see for my observability. >>That's great. Mandy. I want to get your thoughts on this too, because as automation continues to scale, um, it's going to be a focus and people are at home and you guys had a lot of content online for you recorded every session that didn't the dev Ned zone learnings going on, sometimes linearly. And nonlinearly you got the certifications, which is great. That's key, key, great success there. People are interested, but what are the learnings? Are you seeing? What are people doing? What's the top top trends. >>Yeah. So what we're seeing is like you said, people are at home, they've got time. They want to advance their skillset. And just like any kind of learning people want choice because they want to be able to choose what's matches their time that's available and their learning style. So we're seeing some people who want to dive into full online study groups with mentors, leading them through a study plan. And we have two new, uh, expert led study groups like that. We're also seeing whole teams at different companies who want to do, uh, an immersive learning experience together, uh, with projects and office hours and things like that. And we have a new, um, offer that we've been putting together for people who want those kinds of team experiences called automation boot camp. And then we're also seeing individuals who want to be able to, you know, dive into a topic, do a hands on lab, get some skills, go to the rest of the day of do their work and then come back the next day. >>And so we have really modular self-driven hands on learning through the dev net fundamentals course, which is available through dev net. And then there's also people who are saying, I just want to use the technology. I like to experiment and then go, you know, read the instructions, read the manual, do the deeper learning. And so they're, they're spending a lot of time in our dev net sandbox, trying out different technologies, Cisco technologies with open source technologies, getting hands on and building things. And three areas where we're seeing a lot of interest in specific technologies. One is around SD wan. There's a huge interest in people skilling up there because of all the reasons that we've been talking about security is a focus area where people are dealing with new, new kinds of threats, having to deal with them in new ways and then automating their data center, using infrastructure as code type principles. So those are three areas where we're seeing a lot of interest and you'll be hearing some more about that at dev net create >>Eric and Mandy. If you guys can wrap up this accelerate automation with dev net package and a virtual event here, um, and also tee up dev net create because dev net create has been a very kind of grassroots, organically building momentum over the years. And again, it's super important cause it's now the app world coming together with networking, you know, end to end programmability and with everything as a service that you guys are doing everything with API APIs, I'm only can imagine the enablement that's gonna create. Can you share the summary real quick on accelerating automation with dev net and tee up dev net create Mandy, we'll start with you. >>Yes, I'll go first. And then Eric can close this out. Um, so just like we've been talking about with you at every Devin event over the past years, you know, damnit is bringing APIs across our whole portfolio and up and down the stack and accelerating, uh, automation with dev net. Susie mentioned the people aspect of that the people's skilling up and how that transformed teams, transforms teams. And I think that it's all connected in how businesses are being pushed on their transformation because of current events. That's also a great opportunity for people to advance their careers and take advantage of some of that quickly changing landscape. And so what I think about accelerating automation with dev net, it's about the Duveneck community. It's about people getting those new skills and all the creativity and problem solving that will be unleashed by that community. With those new skills. >>Eric take us home. He accelerating automation, dev net and dev net create a lot of developer action going on in cloud native right now, your thoughts? >>Absolutely. I think it's exciting. I mentioned the transition to virtual for Devin that day, this year for Cisco live. And we're seeing, we're able to leverage it even further with create this year. So, whereas it used to be, you know, confined by the walls that we were within for the event. Now we're actually able to do things like we're adding the start now track for people that want to be there. They want to be a developer, a network automation developer, for instance, we've now got attract just for them where they can get started and start learning. Some of the skills they'll need, even if some of the other technical sessions were a little bit deeper than what they were ready for. Um, so I love that we're able to bring that together with the experienced community that we usually do from across the industry, bringing us all kinds of innovative talks, talking about ways that they're leveraging technology, leveraging the cloud, to do new and interesting things to solve their business challenges. So I'm really excited to bring that whole mix together, as well as getting some of our business units together too, and talk straight from their engineering departments. What are they doing? What are they seeing? What are they thinking about when they're building new APIs into their platforms? What are the, what problems are they hoping >>That customers will be able to solve with them? So I think together seeing all of that and then bringing the community together from all of our usual channels. So like I said, Cisco learning network, we've got a ton of community coming together, sharing their ideas and helping each other grow those skills. I see nothing but acceleration ahead of us for automation. >>Awesome. Thanks so much. >>Can I add one, add one more thing? Yeah. I was just gonna say the other really exciting thing about create this year with the virtual nature of it is that it's happening in three regions. And, um, you know, we're so excited to see the people joining from all the different regions and, uh, content and speakers and the region stepping up to have things personalized to their area, to their community. And so that's a whole new experience for them that create that's going to be fantastic this year. >>Yeah. That's what I was going to close out and just put the final bow on that. By saying that you guys have always been successful with great content focused on the people in the community. I think now during what this virtual dev net virtual dev net create virtual, the cube virtual, I think we're learning new things. People working in teams and groups and sharing content, we're going to learn new things. We're going to try new things and ultimately people will rise up and we'll be resilient. I think when you have this kind of opportunity, it's really fun. And we'll, we'll, we'll ride the wave with you guys. So thank you so much for taking the time to come on the cube and talk about your awesome accelerating automation and dev net. Great. Looking forward to it. Thank you. >>Thank you so much. Happy to be here. >>Okay. I'm Jennifer with the cube virtual here in Palo Alto studios doing the remote content amendment virtual tour face to face. Thank you so much for watching and we'll see you at dev net create thanks for watching. >>Welcome back. And Jeffrey, >>The cube coming to you from our Palo Alto studio with ongoing coverage of the Cisco dev data van, it's called accelerating automation with dev net and the new normal. And we certainly know the new normal is, is not going away. They've been doing this since the middle of March or all the way to October. And so we're excited to have our next guest is Thomas Shively. He's the vice president of product marketing and data center networking for the intent based networking group at Cisco Thomas. Great to see you. >>Hey, good to see you too. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody can see on our background. Exactly, >>Exactly. So, I mean, I'm curious, we've talked to a lot of people. We talked to a lot of leaders, you know, especially like back in March and April with this light switch moment, which was, you know, no time to prep and suddenly everybody has to work from home. Teachers got to teach from home. And so you got the kids home, you got the spouse home, everybody's home trying to get on the network and do their zoom calls in their classes. I'm curious from your perspective, you guys are right there on the, on the network you're right in the infrastructure. What did you hear and see kind of from your customers when suddenly, you know, March 16 hit and everybody had to go home. >>Wow, good point. Hey, I do think we all appreciate the network >>Much more than we used to do before. Uh, and then the only other difference is I'm really more on WebEx calls and zoom calls, but, you know, otherwise, uh, yes. Um, what, what I do see actually is that as I said, network becomes much more operative as a critical piece. And so before we really talked a lot about, uh, agility and flexibility these days, we talk much more about resiliency quite frankly. Uh, and what do I need to have in place with respect to network to get my things from left to right. And you know, it, 2000 East to West, as we say on the data center. Right. Uh, and that just is for most of my customers, a very, very important topic at this point. >>Right. You know, it's, it's amazing to think, you know, had this happened, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago, you know, the ability for so many people in, in, in the information industry to be able to actually make that transition relatively seamlessly, uh, is, is actually pretty amazing. I'm sure there was some, some excitement and some kudos in terms of, you know, it, it is all based on the network and it is kind of this quiet thing in the background that nobody pays attention to. It's like a ref in the football game until they make a bad play. So, you know, it, it is pretty fascinating that you and your colleagues have put this infrastructure and that enabled us to really make that move with, with, with really no prep, no planning and actually have a whole lot of services delivered into our homes that we're used to getting at the office are used to getting at school. >>Yeah. And I mean, to your point, I mean, some of us did some planning, can we clearly talking about some of these, these trends and the way I look at this trans as being distributed data centers and, um, having the ability to move your workloads and access for users to wherever you want to be. And so I think that clearly went on for a while then. So in a sense, we, we, we prep was, or no, but we're prepping for it. Um, but as I said, resiliency just became so much more important than, you know, one of the things I actually do a little block, a little, little, uh, abrupt before a block I put out end of August around resiliency. Uh, you, you, if he didn't, if he didn't put this in place, you better put it in place. Because I think as we all know, we sold our match. This is like maybe two or three months, we're now in October. Um, and I sing, this is the new normal for some time being. Yeah, >>I think so. So let's stick on that theme in terms of, of trends, right? The other great, uh, trend as public cloud, um, and hybrid cloud and multi cloud, there's all types of variants on that theme you had in that blog post about, uh, resiliency in data center, cloud networking, data center cloud, you know, some people think, wait, it's, it's kind of an either, or I either got my data center or I've got my stuff in the cloud and I've got public cloud. And then as I said, hybrid cloud, you're talking really specifically about enabling, um, both inner inner data center resiliency within multi data centers within the same enterprise, as well as connecting to the cloud. That's probably counterintuitive for some people to think that that's something that Cisco is excited about and supporting. So I wonder if you can share, you know, kind of how the market is changing, how you guys are reacting and really putting the things in place to deliver customer choice. >>Yeah, no, it's actually, to me, it's really not a counterintuitive because in the end was what, uh, I'm focusing on. And the company is focused on is what our customers want to do and need to do. Uh, and that's really, um, would, you know, most people call hybrid cloud or multi-cloud, uh, in, in the end, what it is, what it is, is really the ability to have the flexibility to move your workloads where you want them to be. And there are different reasons why you want to place them, right? You might've placed them for security reasons. You might have played some compliance reasons, depending on which customer segment you after, if you're in the United States or in Europe or in Asia, there are a lot of different reasons where you're going to put your sinks. And so I sing in the end, what a, an enterprise looks for is that agility, flexibility, and resiliency. >>And so really what you want to put in place is what we call like the cloud on ramp, right? You need to have an ability to move sings as needed. But the logic context section, which we see in the last couple of months, accelerating is really this whole seam around digital transformation, uh, which goes hand in hand then was, uh, the requirement on the at T side really do. And I T operations transformation, right. How it operates. Uh, and I think that's really exciting to see, and this is where a lot of my discussions I was customers, uh, what does it actually mean with respect to the it organization and what are the operational changes? This a lot of our customers are going through quite frankly, accelerated right. Going through, >>Right. And, and automation is in the title of the event. So automation is, you know, is an increasingly important thing, you know, as the, as we know, and we hear all the time, you know, the flows of data, the complexity of the data, either on the security or the way the network's moving, or as you said, shifting workloads around, based on the dynamic situations, whether that's business security, et cetera, in a software defined networking has been around for a while. How are you seeing kind of this evolution in adding more automation, you know, to more and more processes to free up those, those, um, no kind of limited resources in terms of really skilled people to focus on the things that they should be focused on and not stuff that, that hopefully you can, you know, get a machine to run with some level of. >>Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. And I said the tech line, I have, you know, sometimes when my mind is really going from a cloud ready, which is in most of our infrastructure is today to cloud native. And so let me a little expand on those, right? There's like the cloud ready is basically what we have put in place over the last five to six years, all the infrastructure that all our customers have, network infrastructure, all the nexus 9,000, they're all cloud ready. Right. And what this really means, do you have API APIs everywhere, right? Whether this is on the box, whether it's on the controller, whether this is on the operations tools, all of these are API enabled and that's just the foundation for automation, right? You have to have that. Now, the next step really is what do you do with that capability? >>Right? And this is the integration with a lot of automation tools, uh, and that's a whole range, right? And this is where the it operation transformation kicks in different customers at different speeds, right? Some just, you know, I use these API APIs and use NoMo tools that they have on a network world just to pull information. Some customers go for further and saying, I want to integrate this with some CMDB tools. Some go even further and saying, this is like the cloud native pleasing, Oh, I want to use, let's say red hat Ansible. I want to use, uh, how she called Terraform and use those things to actually drive how I manage my infrastructure. And so that's really the combination of the automation capability. Plus the integration with relevant cloud native enabling tools that really is happening at this point. We're seeing customers accelerating that, that motion, which really then drives us how they run their it operations. Right? And so that's a pretty exciting, exciting area to see a given. I, we have the infrastructure in place. There's no need for customers to actually do change something. Most of them have already the infrastructures that can do this. It is just no doing the operational change. The process changes to actually get there. >>Right. And it's funny, we, we recently covered, you know, PagerDuty and, and they highlight what you just talked about. The cloud native, which is, you know, all of these applications now are so interdependent on all these different API APIs, you know, pulling data from all of these applications. So a, when they work great, it's terrific. But if there's a problem, you know, there's a whole lot of potential throat to choke out there and find, find those issues. And it's all being connected via the network. So, you know, it's even more critically important, not only for the application, but for all these little tiny components within the application to deliver, you know, ultimately a customer experience within a very small units of time, uh, so that you don't lose that customer. You, you complete that transaction. They, they check out of their shopping cart. You know, all these, these things that are now created with cloud native applications that just couldn't really do before. >>No, you're absolutely right. And that's, this is like, just sit. I'm actually very excited because it opens up a lot of abilities for our customers, how they want to actually structure the operation. Right? One of the nice things around this or automation plus, uh, tool integration, cloning to, and integration is you actually opened this up, not a soul automation train, not just to the network operations personnel, right. You also open it up and can use this for the second ops person or for the dev ops person or for the cloud ops engineering team. Right. Because the way it's structured, the way we built this, um, is literally as an API interface and you can now decide, what is your process do you want to have? And what traditional, you have a request network, operation teams executes the request using these tools and then hand it back over. >>Or do you say, Hey, maybe some of these security things I got to hand over the sec ups team, and they can directly call these these KPIs, right? Or even one step further, you can have the opportunity that the dev ops or the application team actually says, Hey, I got to write a whole infrastructure as code kind of a script or template, and I just execute. Right. And it's really just using what the infrastructure provides. And so that whole range of different user roles and our customer base, what they can do with the automation capability that's available. It's just very, very exciting way because it's literally unleashes a lot of flexibility, how they want to structure and how they want to rebuild the it operations processes. >>That's interesting, you know, cause the, you know, the DevOps culture has taken over a lot, right. Obviously change software programming for the last 20 years. And I think, you know, there's a, there's a lot of just kind of the concept of dev ops versus necessarily, you know, the actual things that you do to execute that technique. And I don't think most people would think of, you know, network ops or, you know, net ops, you know, whatever the equivalent is in the networking world to have, you know, kind of a fast changing dynamic, uh, kind of point of view versus a, you know, stick it in, you know, spec it, stick it in, lock it down. So I wonder if you can, you can share how, you know, kind of that dev ops, um, attitude point of view, workflow, whatever the right verb is, has impacted, you know, things at Cisco and the way you guys think about networking and flexibility within the networking world. >>Yeah, literally, absolutely. And again, it's all customer driven, right? There's none of those. None of those is really actually, you know, a little bit of credit, maybe some of us where we have a vision, but a lot of it is just customer driven feedback. Uh, and yeah, we, we do have network operations teams comes to saying, Hey, we use Ansible heavily on the compute side, we might use this for alpha seven. We want to use the same for networking. And so we made available all these integrations, uh, with sobriety as a state, whether these are the switches, whether these are ACI decent, a controller or our multicell orchestration capabilities, all of these has Ansible integration the way to the right. Uh, the other one, as I mentioned, that how she formed Turco Terraform, we have integrations available and they see the requests for these tools to use that. >>Uh, and so that is emotion where in for all the, you know, and, uh, another block actually does out there, we just posted saying, Neil, all set what you can do and then a Palo to this, right. Just making the integration available. We also have a very, very heavy focus on definite and enablement and training, uh, and you know, a little plugin. I know, uh, probably, uh, part of the segment, the whole definite community that Cisco has is very, very vibrant. Uh, and the beauty of this is right. If you look at us, whether you're a NetApps person or dev ops person or SecOps person, it doesn't really matter. It has a lot of like capability available to just help you get going or go from one level to the next level. Right. And it's simplest thing that like sent books and why moments where you can, we know what's out stress, try sinks out snippets of code Coda there, you can do all of these things. And so we do see it's a kind of a push and pull a tremendous amount of interest and a tremendous, uh, uh, time people spend to learn quite frankly. And that's another site product of, of, you know, the situation we're in and people said, Oh man, and say, okay, online learning, that's the thing. So these, these, these tools are used very, very heavily. Right, >>Right. That's awesome. Cause you know, we've, we've had Susie Lee on a number of times and I know he and Mandy and the team really built this dev net thing. And it really follows along this other theme that we see consistently across other pieces of tech, which is democratization, right. Democratization of the access tool, taking it out of, of just a mahogany row with, again, a really limited number of people that know how to make it work and can make the changes and then opening up to a software defined world where now that the, you know, the, it says application centric, point of view, where the people that are building the apps to go create competitive advantage. Now don't have to wait for, you know, the one network person to help them out out of these environments. Really interesting. And I wonder if, you know, when you look at what's happening with public cloud and how they kind of change the buying parameter, how they kind of changed the degree of difficulty to get projects started, you know, how you guys have kind of integrated that, that type of thought process to make it easier for app developers to get their job done. >>Yeah. I mean, again, it's, it's, uh, I typically look at this more from a, from a customer lands, right? It's the transformation process and it always starts as I want agility. I want flexibility. I want to resiliency, right. This is where we talk to a business owner, what they're looking for. And then that translates into, into an I operations process, right? Your strategy needs to map then how you actually do this. Uh, and that just drives then what tools do you want to have available to actually enable this? Right. And the enablement again is for different roles, right? There is you need to give sync services to the app developer and, uh, the, the platform team and the security team, right. To your point. So the network, uh, can act at the same speed, but you also give to us to the network operations teams because they need to, uh, adjust. >>Then they have the ability to react to, uh, to some of these requirements. Right. And it's not just automation. I say, we, we, we focused on that, but there's also to your point, the, the need, how do I extend between data centers? You know, just, just for backup and recovery and how do I extend into, into public clouds, right? Uh, and in the end, that's a, that's a network connectivity problem. Uh, and we have soft as, uh, we have made as available. We have integrations into, uh, AWS. We have integrations into a joy to actually make this very easy from a, from a network perspective to extend your private, private networks into which of private networks on these public clouds. So from an app development perspective, now it looks like he's on the same network. It's a protective enterprise network. Some of it might sit here. >>Some of it might sit here, but it's really looking the same. And that's really in the enticing, what a business looks at, right. They don't necessarily want to say, I need to have something separate for this deployment. What's a separate for that deployment. What they want is I need to deploy something. I need to do this resilient. And the resilient way in an agile way gives me the tools. And so that's really where we focused, um, and what we're driving, right? It's that combination of automation consistently, and then definite tools, uh, available that we support. Uh, but they're all open. Uh, they're all standard tools as the ones I mentioned, right. That everybody's using. So I'm not getting into this. Oh, this is specific to Cisco, right. It's really democratisation. I actually liked your term. Yeah. >>Yeah. It's, it's a great terminate. And it's, it's really interesting, especially with, with the API APIs and the way everything is so tied together that everyone kind of has to enable this because that's what the customer is demanding. Um, and it is all about the applications and the workloads and where those things are moving, but they don't really want to manage that. They just want to, you know, deliver business benefit to their customers and respond to, uh, you know, competitive threats in the marketplace, et cetera. So it's really an interesting time for the infrastructure, you know, to really support kind of this app first point of view, uh, versus the other way around is kind of what it used to be and, and enable this hyper fast development hyper fast, uh, change in, in, in the competitive landscape or else you will be left behind. Um, so super important stuff. >>Yeah, no, I totally agree. And as I said, I mean, it's, it's kind of interesting is we, we started on the Cisco data center side. We started this probably six or seven years ago. Uh, when we, when we named the application centric, uh, clearly a lot of these concepts evolve, uh, but in a sense it is that reversal of the role from the network provides something and you use to, uh, this is what I want to do. And I need a service, uh, thinking on a networking side to expose. So as that can be consumed. And so that clearly is playing out. Um, and as I said, automation is a key key foundation that we put in place, uh, and our customers, most of our customers at this point, uh, on these, on these products, uh, they have all the capabilities they are, they can literally take advantage. There's really nothing that stops them point. >>Well, it's good times for you because I'm sure you've seen all the memes and in social media, right. What what's driving your digital transformation is that the CEO, the CMO or COVID, and we all know the answer to the question. So I don't think the, the pace of change is going to slow down anytime soon. So keeping the network up and enabling us all to get done, what we have to get done and all the little magic that happens behind the scenes. >>Yeah. No thanks. Thanks for having me. And again, yeah. If you're listening and you're wondering, how do I get started Cisco? Definitely just the place to go. It's fantastic. Fantastic. I highly recommend everybody roll up his sleeves and you know, the best races you can have. >>And we know once the physical events come back, we've been to dev net create a bunch of times, and it's a super vibrant, super excited, but really engaged community sharing. Lots of information is kind of, it's still kind of that early vibe, you know, where everyone is still really enthusiastic and really about learning and sharing information. So, you know, like say Susie and the team are really built a great thing, and we're a, we're happy to continue to cover it. And eventually we'll be back, uh, face to face. I look forward to that as well. All right, thanks. Uh, he's Thomas I'm Jeff, you're watching continuing coverage of Cisco dev net accelerating with automation and programmability >>Kia. Nini is here. He's a distinguished engineer at Cisco TK, my friend. Good to see you again. How are you? Good. I mean, you and I were in Barcelona in January and, you know, we knew we saw this thing coming, but we didn't see it coming this way. Did we know that no one did, but yeah, that was right before everything happened. Well, it's weird. Right? I mean, we were, you know, we, we, it was in the back of our minds in January, we sort of had Barcelona's hasn't really been hit yet. It looked like it was really isolated in China, but, uh, but wow, what a change and I guess, I guess I'd say I'd start with the, we're seeing really a secular change in, in your space and security identity, access management, cloud security, endpoint security. I mean, all of a sudden these things explode as the work from home pivot has occurred, and it feels like these changes are permanent or semi-permanent, what are you seeing out there? >>I don't think anybody thinks the world's going to go back the way it was. Um, to some degree it's, it's changed forever. Um, you know, I, I, I do a lot of my work remotely. Um, and, and so, you know, being a remote worker, isn't such a big deal for me, but for some, it was a huge impact. And like I said, you know, um, remote education, you know, everybody's on the opposite side of a computer. And so the digital infrastructure has just become a lot more important to protect the integrity of it essentially is almost our own integrity these days. Yeah. And when you see that, you know, that work from home pivot, I mean, you know, our estimates are, or along with our partner, DTR about 16% of the workforce was at home working from home prior to COVID and now it's know, North of 70% >>Plus, and that's going to come down maybe a little bit over the next, next six months. We'll see what happens with the fall surge, but, but people essentially accept, expect that to at least double that 16%, you know, going forward indefinitely. So how, what does that, what kind of pressure does that put on the security infrastructure and how, how organizations are approaching security? >>Yeah, I, I just think, uh, from a mindset standpoint, you know, what was optional, uh, maybe, um, last year, uh, is no longer optional and I don't think it's going to go back. Um, I think, I think a lot of people, uh, have changed the way, you know, they live and the way they work. Um, and they're doing it in ways, hopefully that, you know, in some cases, uh, yield more productivity, um, again, um, you know, usually with technology that's severely effective, it doesn't pick sides. So the security slant to it is it frankly works just as well for the bad guys. And so that's, that's the balance we need to keep, which is we need to be extra diligent, uh, on how we go about securing infrastructure, uh, how we go about securing even our, our social channels, because remember all our social channels now are digital. So that's, that's become the new norm. >>You know, you've helped me understand over the years. I remember a line you shared with me in the cube one time is that the adversary is highly capable as sort of the, of the phrase that you used. And, and essentially the way you describe it, as you know, your job as a security practitioner is to decrease the bad guy's return on investment, you know, increase their costs, increase the numerator, but as, as work shifts from home, yeah, I'm in my house, you know, my wifi in my, you know, router with my, you know, dog's name is the password, you know, it's much, much harder for me to, to increase that denominator at home. So can you help? >>Yeah. I mean, it's, it is, it is truly, um, when you think, when you get into the mind of the adversary and, and, uh, you know, the cyber crime out there, they're honestly just like any other business they're trying to operate with high margin. And so if you can get there, if you can get in there and erode their margin, frankly go find something else to do. Um, and, and again, you know, you know, the shift we experienced day to day is it's not just our kids are online in school and, uh, our work is online, but all of the groceries we order, um, you know, this Thanksgiving and holiday season, uh, a lot more online shopping is going to place. So everything's gone digital. And so the question is, you know, how, how do we up our game there so that we can go about our business, uh, effectively. And I make it very expensive for the adversary to operate, uh, and take care of their business. Cause it's nasty stuff. >>I want to ask you about automation generally, and then specifically how it applies to security. So we, I mean, we certainly saw the ascendancy of the hyperscalers and of course they really attacked the it labor problem. We learned a lot from that and an it organizations have applied much of that thinking. And it's critical at scale. I mean, you just can't scale humans at the pace, the technology scales today, how does that apply to security and specifically, how is automation affecting security? >>Yeah, it's, it's, it's the topic these days. Um, you know, businesses, I think, realize that they can't continue to grow at human scale. And so the reason why automation and things like AI and machine learning have a lot of value is because everyone's trying to expand, uh, and operate at machine scale. Now, I mean that for, for businesses, I mean that for, you know, education and everything else now, so are the adversaries, right? So it's expensive for them to operate at Cuban scale and they are going to machine scale, going to machine scale, uh, a necessity is that you're going to have to harness some level of automation, have the machines, uh, work on your behalf, have the machines carry your intent. Um, and when you do that, um, you can do it safely or you could do it dangerously. And that that's really kind of your choice. Um, you know, just because you can automate something doesn't mean you should, um, you, you wanna make sure that frankly, the adversary can't get in there and use that automation on their behalf. So it's, it's a tricky thing because, you know, if, when you take the phrase, you know, uh, how do we, how do we automate security? Well, you actually have to, uh, take care of, of securing the automation first. >>Yeah. We talked about this in Barcelona, where you were explaining that, you know, the, the bad guys, the adversaries are essentially, you know, weaponizing using your own tooling, which makes them appear safe because it's, they're hiding in plain sight. >>Well, there's, they're clever, uh, give them that, um, you know, that there's this phrase that they, they always talk about called living off the land. Um, there's no sense in them coming into your network and bringing their tools and, uh, and being detective, you know, if they can use the tools that's already there, then, uh, they have a higher degree of, of evading, uh, your protection. If they can pose as Alice or Bob, who's already been credentialed and move around your network, then they're moving around the network as Alice or Bob. They're not marked as the adversary. So again, you know, having the detection methods available to find their behavior anomalies and things like that become a paramount, but also, you know, having the automation to contain them, to eradicate them, to, you know, minimize their effectiveness, um, without it, I mean, ideally without human interaction, cause you, you just, can you move faster, you move quicker. Um, and I, I see that with an asterisk because, um, if, if done wrong, frankly, um, you're just making their job more effective. >>I wonder if we could talk about the market a little bit, uh, it's I'm in the security space, cybersecurity 80 plus billion, which by the way, is just a little infant Tessa mill component of our GDP. So we're not spending nearly enough to protect that massive, uh, GDP, but guys, I wonder if you could bring up the chart because when you talk to CSOs and you ask them, what's your, what's your biggest challenge? Let's say lack of talent. And, and so what this chart shows is from ETR, our, our, our survey partner and on the vertical axis is net score. And that's an indication of spending momentum on the horizontal axis is market share, which is a measure of presence, a pervasiveness, if you will, inside the data sets. And so there's a couple of key points here. I wanted to put forth to our audience and then get your reactions. >>So you can see Cisco, I highlighted in red, Cisco is business and security is very, very strong. We see it every quarter. It's a growth area that Chuck Robbins talks about on the, on the conference call. And so you can see on the horizontal axis, you've got, you know, big presence in the data set. I mean, Microsoft is out there, but they're everywhere, but you're right there in that, in that data set. And then you've got for such a large presence, you've got a lot of momentum in the marketplace, so that's very impressive. But the other point here is you've got this huge buffet of options. There's just a zillion vendors here. And that just adds to the complexity. This is of course only a subset of what's in the security space. You know, the people who answered for the survey. So my question is how can Cisco help simplify this picture? Is it automation? Is it, you know, you guys have done some really interesting tuck in acquisitions and you're bringing that integration together. Can you talk about that a little bit? >>Yeah. I mean, that's an impressive chart. I mean, when you look to the left there it's, um, I had a customer tell me once that, you know, I came to this trade show, looking for transportation, and these people are trying to sell me car parts. Um, that's the frustration customers have, you know, and I think what Cisco has done really well is to really focus on the outcomes. Um, what is the customer outcome? Cause ultimately that's, that is what the customer wants. You know, there might be a few steps to get to that outcome, but the closest you can closer, you can get to delivering outcomes for the customer, the better you are. And I think, I think security in general has just year over year have been just written with, um, you need to be an expert. Um, you need to buy all these parts and put it together yourself. And, and I think, I think those days are behind us, but particularly as, as security becomes more pervasive and we're, you know, we're selling to the business, we're not selling to the, you know, t-shirt wearing hacker anymore. >>Yeah. So, well, well, how does cloud fit in here? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about cloud people that God put my data in the cloud I'm safe, but you know, of course we know it's a shared responsibility model. So I'm interested in your, your thoughts on that. Is it really, is it a sense of complacency? A lot of the cloud vendors, by the way, say, Oh, the state of security is great in the cloud. Whereas many of us out there saying, wow, it's, it's not so great. Uh, so what are your thoughts on that, that whole narrative and what Cisco's play in, in cloud? >>I think cloud, um, when you look at the services that are delivered via the cloud, you see that exact pattern, which is you see customers paying for the outcome or as close to the outcome as possible. Um, you know, no, no data center required, no disk drive required, you just get storage, you know, it's, it's, it's all of those things that are again, closer to the outcome. I think the thing that interests me about cloud two is it's really been, it's really punctuated the way we go about building systems. Um, again, at machine scale. So, you know, before, when I write code and I think about what computers are gonna run on, or, you know, what servers are going to is you're going to run on those. Those thoughts never crossed my mind anymore. You know, I'm modeling the intent of what the service should do and the machines then figure it out. So, you know, for instance, on Tuesday, if the entire internet shows up, uh, the, the system works without fail. And if on Wednesday, if only North America shows up, you know, so what, but, but there's no way you could staff that, right? There's just no human scale approach that gets you there. And that's, that's the beauty of all of this cloud stuff is, um, it really is, uh, the next level of how we computer science. >>So you're talking about infrastructure as code and that applies to, you know, security as code. That's what, you know, dev net is really all about. I've said many times, I think Cisco of the, the large established enterprise companies is one of the few, if not the only, that really has figured out, you know, that developer angle, because it's practical do, you're not trying to force your way into developers, but, you know, I wonder if you could, you could talk a little bit about that trend and where you see it going. >>Yeah, no, that is, that is truly the trend. Every time I walk into dev net, um, the big halls at Cisco live, it is Cisco as code. Um, everything about Cisco is being presented through an API. It is automation ready. And, and frankly, that is, um, that is the love language of the cloud. Um, it's it's machines, if the machines talking to machines in very effective ways. So, you know, it is the, the, uh, I, I think, I think necessary, maybe not sufficient but necessary for, um, you know, doing all the machine scale stuff. What what's also necessary, uh, is to, um, to secure if, if infrastructure is code therefore, um, what, what secure, uh, what security methodologies do we have today that we use to secure code while we have automated testing, we have threat modeling, right? Those things actually have to be now applied to infrastructure. So when I, when I talk about how do you do, uh, automation securely, you do it the same way you secure your code, you test it, you, you threaten model, you, you, you say, you know, Ken, my adversary, uh, exhibit something here that drives the automation in a way that I didn't intend it to go. Um, so all of those practices apply. It's just, everything is code these days. >>I've often said that security and privacy are sort of two sides of the same coin. And I want to ask you a question and it's really, to me, it's not necessarily Cisco and company likes companies like Cisco's responsibility, but I wonder if there's a way in which you can help. And of course, there's this Netflix documentary circling around the social dilemma. I don't know if you have a chance to see it, but basically dramatize is the way in which companies are appropriating our data to sell us ads and, you know, creating our own little set of facts, et cetera. And that comes down to sort of how we think about privacy and admin. It's good from the standpoint of awareness, you know, you may or may not care if you're a social media user. I love tick doc. I don't care, but they sort of laid out this pretty scary scenario with a lot of the inventors of those technologies. You have any thoughts on that? And you'll consist go play a role there in terms of protecting our privacy mean beyond GDPR and California consumer privacy act. Um, what do you think? >>Yeah. Um, uh, I'll give you my, you know, my humble opinion is you, you fix social problems with social tools, you fixed technology problems with technology tools. Um, I think there is a social problem. Um, uh, that needs to be rectified the, you know, um, we, we, weren't built as human beings to live and interact with an environment that agrees with us all the time. It's just pretty wrong. So yeah, that, that, that, um, that series that really kind of wake up a lot of people it is, is, you know, it's probably every day I hear somebody asked me if I, I saw, um, but I do think it also, you know, with that level of awareness, I think we, we overcome it or we compensate by what number one, just being aware that it's happening. Um, number two, you know, how you go about solving it, I think maybe come down to an individual or even a community's, um, solution and what might be right for one community might be, you know, not the same for the other. So you have to be respectful in that manner. >>Yeah. So it's, it's, it's almost, I think if I could, you know, play back, what I heard is, is yeah. Technology, you know, maybe got us into this problem, but technology alone is not going to get us out of the problem. It's not like some magic AI bot is going to solve this. It's got to be, you know, society has to really, really take this on as your premise. >>When I, when I first started playing online games, I'm going back to, you know, the text based adventure stuff like muds and Mose. I did a talk at, at MIT one time and, um, this old curmudgeon in the back of the room, um, we were talking about democracy and we were talking about, you know, the social processes that we had modeled in our game and this and that. And this guy just gave us the SmackDown. He needs to be walked up to the front of the room and said, you know, all you techies, you judge efficiency by how long it takes. He says, democracy is a completely the opposite, which is you need to sleep on it. In fact, you shouldn't be scared if somebody can decide in a minute, what is good for the community? It, two weeks later, they probably have a better idea of what's good for the community. So it almost has the opposite dynamic. And that was super interesting to me, >>Really interesting, you know, you read the, like the, the Lincoln historians and he was criticized in the day for having taken so long, you know, to make certain decisions, but, you know, ultimately when he acted acted with, with confidence. Um, so to that point, but, um, so what, what else are you working on these days that, uh, that are, that is, is interesting that maybe you want to share with our audience? Anything that's really super exciting for you or are you >>Yeah. You know, generally speaking, um, try not try and make it a little harder for the bad guys to operate. I guess that's a general theme making it simpler for the common person to use, uh, tools. Um, again, you know, all of these security tools, no matter how fancy it is, it's not that we're losing the complexity, it's that we're moving the complexity away from the user so that they can drive at human scale. And we can do things at machine scale and kind of working those two together is sort of the, the, the magic recipe. Um, it's, it's not easy, but, um, but it is, it is fun. So that's, that's what keeps me engaged. >>I'm definitely seeing, I wonder if you see it as just sort of a, obviously a heightened organization awareness, but I'm also seeing shifts in the organizational structures. You know, the, you know, it used to be a sec ops team and an Island. Okay, it's your problem? You know, the, the, the CSO cannot report into the, to the CIO because that's like the Fox in the hen house, a lot of those structures are, are, are changing. It seems, and be becoming a, this responsibility is coming much more ubiquitous across the organization. What are you seeing there? And what are you? >>And it's so familiar to me because, you know, um, I, I started out as a musician. So, you know, bands bands are a great analogy. You know, you play bass, I big guitar. You know, somebody else plays drums, everybody knows their role and you create something that's larger than the sum of all parts. And so that, that analogy I think, is coming to, you know, we, we saw it sort of with dev ops where, you know, the developer, doesn't just throw their coat over the wall and it's somebody else's problem. They move together as a band. And, and that's what I think, um, organizations are seeing is that, you know, why, why stop there? Why not include marketing? Why not include sales? Why don't we move together as a business? Not just here's the product and here's the rest of the business. That's, that's, that's pretty awesome. Um, I think, uh, we see a lot of those patterns, uh, particularly for the highly high performance businesses. >>You know, in fact, it's interesting, you have great analogy by the way. And you actually see in that within Cisco, you're seeing sort of a, and I know sometimes you guys don't like to talk about the plumbing, but I think it matters. I mean, you've got a leadership structure now. I I've talked to many of them. They seem to really be more focused on how their connect connecting, you know, across organizations. And it's increasingly critical in this world of, you know, of silo busters. Isn't it? >>Yeah, no, I mean, you almost, as, as you move further and further away, you know, you can see how ridiculous it was before it would be like acquiring the band and say, okay, all your guitar players go over here. All your bass players go over there. Like what happened to the band? That's what I'm talking about is, you know, moving all of those disciplines, moving together and servicing the same backlog and achieving the same successes together is just so awesome. Well, I, I always feel better after talking to you. You know, I remember I remember art. Coviello used to put out his letter every year and I was reading. I'd get depressed. We spend all this money now we're less secure. But when I talked to you TK, I feel like much more optimistic. So I really appreciate the time you spend on the cube. It's, it's awesome to have you as a guest. I love these, I love these sessions. So things thanks for inviting me and I miss you, you know, hopefully, you know, next year we can get together at some of the Cisco shows or other shows, but be well and stay weird. Like the sign says kidney, thanks so much for coming to the Q. We, uh, we really appreciate it. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante. We've right back with our next guest. This short break, >>After the cubes coverage, just to keep virtuals coverage of dev net create virtual. We're not face to face the cubes been there with dev net and dev net create. Since the beginning, dev net create was really a part of the dev net community. Looking out at the external market outside of Cisco, which essentially is the cloud native world, which is going mainstream. We've got a great guest here. Who's, who's been the company's been on the cube. Many times. We've been talking to them recently acquired by Cisco thousand eyes. We have Joe Vaccaro is beast vice president of product. Uh, Joe, welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. Great. And thanks for having me. You have the keys to the kingdom, you, the vice president of product, which means you get to look inside and you get to look outside, figure it all out, uh, make everything run on thousand eyes. >>You guys have been finding common language, uh, across multiple layers of network intelligence, external services. This is the heart of what we're seeing in innovation with multi-cloud microservices, cloud native. This is really a hot area it's converged in multiple theaters and technology. Super important. I want to get into that with you, but first thousand eyes is recently acquired by Cisco, um, big acquisition, uh, super important, the new CEO of Cisco, very clear API, everything we're seeing that come out. That's a big theme at dev net create the ecosystem of Cisco's going outside their own, you know, their, their walls outside of the Cisco network operators, network engineers. We're talking to developers talking programmability. This is the big theme. What's it like at Cisco? Tell us, honestly, the COVID hits. You get acquired by Cisco, tell us what's happening. >>Yeah, it's really been an exciting six months for the entire team and customers, >>You know, as we all kind of shifted to the new normal of working from home. And I think, you know, that change alone really kind of amplified. Even some of the fundamental beliefs that we have as a company that you know, cloud is becoming the new data center or customers that Indra internet has become the new network and the new enterprise network backbone. And that SAS has really become the new application stack. And as you think about these last six months, those fundamental truths have never been more evident as we rely upon the cloud to be able to, to work as we rely upon our own home networks and the internet in order to be productive. And as we access more sized applications on a daily basis. And as you think about those fundamental truths, what's common across all of them is that you rely upon them now more than ever, not only to run your business, but to any of your employees would be productive, but you don't own them. And if you don't own them, then you lack the ability in a traditional way to be able to understand that digital experience. And I think that's ultimately what, what thousand eyes is trying to solve for. And I think it's really being amplified in really these last six months. >>Talk about the Cova dynamic because I think it highlighted and certainly accelerated digital transformation, but specifically exposes opportunities, challenges, weaknesses, I've talked to many CXOs CSOs. Uh, sec security is huge. Um, the home of the conference book talk track we'll get to in a second, but it exposes what's worth doubling down on what to abandoned from a project standpoint, as people start to look at their priorities, they're going, Hey, we got to have a connected experience. We got to have security. People are working at home. No one has VPNs at home. VPNs are passe. Maybe it's SD when maybe it's something else they're on a backbone. They're connecting to the internet, a lot of different diversity in connections. At the same time, you got a ton of modern apps running for these networks. This is a huge issue. COVID is exposed this at scale. What's your view on this? And what is thousand eyes thinking about this? >>You know, if you think about the kind of legacy application delivery, it went from largely users in an office connected over, say a dedicated corporate network, largely to traditional say internal hosted applications. And that was a early, simple, uh, connectivity bath. And as you mentioned, we've seen amplifications in terms of the diversity from the users. So users are not in the office. Now they're connected in distributed disparate locations that are dynamically changing. And you think that how they're getting to that application, they're going across a really complex service chain of different network services that are working together across as public internet backbone will totally to land them on an application. And then those applications themselves are becoming now, as you mentioned, distributed largely based upon a microservices architecture and increasing their own dependence upon third party sample size applications to fulfill say, functions of that application, those three things together. >>Ultimately you're creating that level level of complex service chain that really makes it difficult to understand the digital experience and ultimately the it organization newly chartered with not just delivering the infrastructure, but delivering the right experience. And you then have a way to be able to see, to gain that visibility, that experience, you know, to measure it and understand, and to provide that intelligence and then ultimately to act on it, to be able to ensure that your employees, as well as your customers are getting the right overall, um, approach to being able to leverage those assets. >>It's funny, you know, as you get into some of these high-scale environments, a lot of these concepts are converging. You know, we had terms like automation, self healing networks. Um, you mentioned microservices early, you mentioned data at the clouds, the new data center, uh, or when's the new land. However, we're going to look at it. It's a whole different architecture. So I want to get your thoughts on, on the automation piece of networking and internet outages, for instance, um, because when you, you know, there's so many outages going up and down, it is like, uh, catching, looking for a needle in a haystack, right. So, um, we've had this conversation with you guys on the cube before, how does automation occur when you guys look at those kinds of things? Uh, what's important to look at, can you comment on and react to, you know, the internet outages and how you find resolve those? >>Yeah. It's um, it was really great. And as you mentioned, automation really in a place that a key, when you think about the, just a broad problem that it is trying to drive and, you know, from our lens, we look at it in really three ways. First off is you have to be able to gain the level of visibility from where it matters and be able to, to test and be able to provide that level of active measurements across the, the type of ways you want to be able to inspect the network. But then also from the right vantage points, you want to inspect it. But what we talk about right inside, you know, data, um, alone, doesn't solve that problem. As you mentioned, that needle in the haystack, you know, data just provides the raw metrics that are screaming across the screen. You have to then enable that data to provide meeting. >>You need to enable that data become intelligent. And that intelligence comes through the automation of being able to process that data very quickly, allow you to be able to see the unseen, to allow you to be able to quickly understand the issues that are happening across this digital supply chain to identify issues that are even happening outside of your own control across the public internet. And then the last step of automation really comes in the form of the action, right? How do you enable that intelligence to be put, to use? How do you enable that intelligence to then drive across the rest of your it workflow as well as to be able to be used as a signaling engine, to be able to then make the fundamental changes back at the network fabric, whether that is a dressing or modifying your BGB pairing, that we see happen within our customers using thousand eyes data, to be able to route around major internet outages that we've seen over the past six months, or to be able to then that data, to be able to optimize the ultimate experience that they're delivering to both our customers, as well as our employees, >>Classic policy based activity, taking it to a whole nother level. I got to get your thoughts on the employees working at home. Okay. Because, um, you know, most it, people are like, Oh yeah, we're going to forecast in cases of disruption or a hurricane or a flood or hurricane Sandy, but now with COVID, everyone's working at home. So who would have forecasted a hundred percent, um, you know, work from home, which puts a lot of pressure on him, everything. So I got to ask you, now that employees are working at home, how do you tie network visibility to the actual user experience? >>Yeah, that's a great question. As you, you know, we saw it within our own customer base, you know, when COVID head and we saw this rise of work from home, it teams were really scrambling and said, okay, I have to light up this, say VPN infrastructure, or I need to now be able to support my users in a work from home situation where I don't control the corporate network. In essence, now you have essentially thousands. Every employee is acting across their own corporate network and people were then using thousand eyes in different ways to be able to monitor their CTPs infrastructure across, back into the corporate network, as well as in using our thousand eyes end point agents that runs on a local, a user's laptop or machine in their home to help you to be able to gain that visibility down to that last mile of connectivity. >>Because when a user calls up support and says, I'm having trouble say accessing my application, whether that's Salesforce or something else, what ultimately might be causing that issue might not necessarily be a Salesforce issue, right? It could be the device in the device performance in terms of CPU, memory utilization. It could be the wifi and the signal quality within your wifi network. It could be your access point. It could be your raw, local home router. It can be your local ISP. It could be the path that you're taking ultimately to your corporate network or that application. There's so many places that could go wrong that are now difficult to be able to see, unless you have the ability to see comprehensively from the user to the application, and to be able to understand that full end to end path, >>You know, it teams have also been disrupted. They've been on offsite prop off property as well, but you've got the cloud. How has your technology helped the it teams? Can you give some examples there? Um, >>Yeah, a great way is, you know, how people use thousand eyes as part of that data sharing ecosystem. Again, that notion of how do you go from visibility to intelligence action and where in the past you might be able as an it administrator to walk over to their network team and say, Hey, can you take a look at what I'm seeing now? That's no longer available. So how do you be able to work efficiently as the United organization? You know, we think a thousand eyes in how our customers are using us a thousand times becomes a common operating language that allows them to be able to analyze across from the application down into the underlying infrastructure, through those different layers of the network what's happening. And where do you need to focus your attention? And then furthermore, with 10,000 eyes in terms of a need, enabling that data sharing ecosystem, leveraging our share link capability really gives them the ability to say, you know, what, here's what I'm seeing and be able to send that to anybody within the it organization. But it goes even further and many times in recent times, as well as over the course of people using thousand eyes, they take those share links and actually send them to their external providers because they're not just looking to resolve issues within their own it organization. They're having to work collaboratively with a different ISP. If they're pairing with, with their cloud providers that they're appearing, uh, they're leveraging, or the SAS applications that are part of that core dependency of how they deliver their experience. >>I asked you the question, we think about levels of visibility and making the lives easier for it. Teams. Um, you see a lot of benefits with thousand eyes. You pointed out a few of them just got to ask you the question. So if I'm an it person I'm in the trenches, are you guys have, uh, an aspirin or a vitamin or both? Can you give an example because there's a lot of pain point out there. So yeah. Give me a cup, a couple Advils and aspirins, but also you're an enabler to the new things are evolving. You pointed out some use case. You talk about the difference between where you're helping people pain points and also enabling them be successful for it teams. >>Yeah, that's a great analogy. You're thinking it, like you said, it definitely sits on both sides of that spectrum, you know, thousand eyes is the trusted tool, the source of truth for it. Organizations when issues are happening as their alarm bells are ringing, as they are generating the, um, the different, uh, on call, uh, to be able to jump into a war situation thousand eyes is that trusted source of truth. Allow them to focus, to be able to resolve that issue in the heat of the moment. But that was a nice also when we think about baselining, your experience, what's important is not understanding that experience at that moment at time, but also how that's deviated over time. And so by leveraging thousand eyes on a continuous basis, it gives you that ability to see the history of that experience, to understand how your network is changing is as you mentioned, networks are constantly evolving, right? >>The internet itself is constantly changing. It's an organic system, and you need to be able to understand not only what are the metrics that are moving out of your bounds, but then what is potentially the cause of that as a network has evolved. And then furthermore, you can be begin to use that as you mentioned, in terms of your vitamin type of an analogy, to be able to understand the health of your system over time on a baseline basis so that you can begin to, uh, be able to ensure its success in a great way to really kind of bring that to light. As people using say, thousand eyes as part of the same se land-based rollout, where you're looking to say benchmark, and you can confidence as you look to scale out in either, you know, benchmarking different ESPs within that, I feel like connectivity for as you look to ensure a level of success with a single branch, give you that competence to then scale out to the rest of your organization. >>That's great insights. The classic financial model ROI got baseline and upside, right? You got handle the baseline as you pointed out, and the upside music experience connectivity, you know, application performance, which drives revenue, et cetera. So great point. Great insight, Joe. Thank you so much for that insight. It's got a final question for you. I want to just riff a little bit with you on the industry. A lot of us have been having debates about automation and who doesn't, who doesn't love automation. Automation is awesome, right? Automate things, but as the trend starts going on, as everything is a service or X, a S as it's called, certainly Cisco's going down that road. Talk about your view about the difference between automation and everything is a service because at the end of the day, everything will be a service, but without automation, you really can't have services, right? So, you know, automation, automation, automation, great, great drum to bang all day long, but then also you got the same business side saying as a service, as a service, pushing that into the products, it means not trivial. Talk about, talk about how you look at automation and everything as a service and the relationship and interplay between those two concepts. >>Yeah. Ultimately I think about in terms of what is the problem that the business is trying to solve in ultimately, what is the deal that they're trying to face? And in many ways, right, they're being exploded with increase of data that needs, they need to be able to not only process and gather, but then be able to then make use of, and then from that, as we mentioned, once you've processed that data and you've said, gather the insights from it. You need to be able to then act on that data. And automation plays a key role of allowing you to be able to then put that through your workflow. Because again, as that, it experience becomes even more complex as more and more services get put into that digital supply chain. As you adopt say increased complexity within your infrastructure, by moving to a multicloud architecture where you look to increase the number of say, network services that you're leveraging across that digital experience. >>Ultimately you need with the level of automation, you'll be able to see outside of your own vantage point. You need to be able to look at the problem from as broad of a, a broad of a way as possible. And, you know, data and automation allows you to be able to do what is fundamentally difficult to do from a very narrow point of view, in terms of the visibility you gather intelligence you generate, and then ultimately, how do you act on that data as quick as possible to be able to provide the value of what you're looking for. >>It's like a feature it's under the hood. The feature of everything comes to the surface is automation, data, machine learning, all the goodness in the software. I mean, that's really kind of what we're talking about here. Isn't it a final question for you as we wrap up, uh, dev net create really, again, is going beyond Cisco's dev net community going into the industry ecosystem where developers are there. Um, these are folks that want infrastructure as code. They want network as code. So network programmability, huge topic. We've been having that conversation, uh, with Cisco and others throughout the industry for the past three years. What's your message to developers out there that are watching this who say, Hey, I just want to develop code. Like I want, you know, you guys got that. That was nice. Thanks so much. You know, you take care of that. I just want to write code. What's your message to those folks out there who want to tap some of these new services, these new automation, these new capabilities, what's your message. >>And ultimately, I think, you know, when you're looking at thousand eyes, um, you know, from a fraud perspective, you know, we try to build our product in an API first model to allow you to be able to then shift left of how you think about that overall experience. And from a developer standpoint, you know, what I'd say is, is that while you're developing in your silo, you're going to be part of a larger ultimate system. In your experience you deliver within your application is now going to be dependent upon not only the infrastructure that's running upon, but the network it's connected to, and then ultimately the user in the sense of that user and by leveraging that thousand eyes and being able to then integrate thousand into how you think closely on that experience, that's going to help ensure that ultimately the application experience that the developer's looking to deliver meets that objective. And I think what I would say is, you know, while you need to focus on your, uh, your role as a developer, having the understanding of how you fit into the larger ecosystem and what the reality of the, of how your users access that application is critical. >>Awesome, Joe, thank you so much. Again, trust is everything letting people understand that what's going on underneath is going to be viable and capable. You guys got a great product and congratulations on the acquisition that Cisco made of your company. We've been following you guys for a long time and a great technology chops, great market traction, congratulations to everyone, 1,009. Thanks for coming on sharing. I appreciate it. Thanks Joe Vaccaro, vice president of product here, but thousand nine is now part of Cisco, John, for your host of the cube cube virtual for dev net, create virtual. Thanks for watching. >>Even prior to the pandemic, there was a mandate to automate the hyperscale cloud companies. They've shown us that to scale. You really have to automate you human labor. It just can't keep up with the pace of technology. Now, post COVID that automation mandate is even more pressing. Now what about the marketplace? What are S E seeing on the horizon? The cubes Jeff Frick speaks with Cisco engineers to gather their insights and explore the definite specialized partner program. We've got a Coon Jacobs. He's the director of systems engineering for Cisco. >>Good to see Kuhn. >>Thank you for having me >>Joining him as Eric nip. He is the VP of system systems engineering for Cisco. Good to see Eric. Good to be here. Thank you. Pleasure. So before we jump into kind of what's going on now in this new great world of programmability and, and control, I want to kind of go back to the future for a minute because when I was doing some research for this interview, it was cool. I saw an old presentation that you were giving from 2006 about the changing evolution of the, uh, the changing evolution of networking and moving from. I think that the theme was a human centered human centered network. And you were just starting to touch a little bit on video and online video. Oh my goodness, how far we have come, but I would love to get kind of a historical perspective because we've been talking a lot and I know Eric son plays football about the football analogy of the network is kind of like an offensive lineman where if they're doing a good job, you don't hear much about them, but they're really important to everything. >>And the only time you hear about them as the women, the flag gets thrown. So if you look back with the historical perspective, the load and the numbers and the evolution of the network, as we've moved to this modern time, and, you know, thank goodness cause of COVID hit five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, all of us in the information space would not have been able to make this transition. So I just, I just love to get some historical perspective cause you've been kind of charting this and mapping this for a very long time. >>Yeah. W we absolutely have. I think, you know, what you're referring to was back in the day, the human network campaign, and to your point, the load, the number of hosts that traffic that just overall, the intelligence of the network has just evolved tremendously over these last decade and a half, uh, 15 years or so. And you look at where we are now in terms of the programmable nature of the network and what that enables in terms of new degrees of relevance that we can create for the customers and how, you know, the role of it has changed entirely again, especially during this pandemic, you know, the fact that it's now as a serve as an elastic is absolutely fundamental to being able to ensure, uh, on an ongoing basis, a great customer experience. And so, uh, it's been, it's been, uh, a very interesting ride. >>And then just to close the loop, the, one of your more later interviews talking to Sylvia, your question is, are you a developer or an engineer? So it was, and, and your whole advice to all these network engineers is just, just don't jump in and start doing some coding and learning. So, you know, the focus and really the emphasis and where the opportunity to differentiate as a company is completely shifting gears over to the, you know, really software defined side. >>Oh, absolutely. So I mean, you look at how the software world and the network has come together and how we're applying now, you know, basically the same construct of CIC pipeline to network, uh, infrastructure, look at network really as, and get all of the benefits from that. And the familiarity of it, the way that our engineers have had to evolve. And that is just, you know, quite, quite significant in, in, in like the skill set. And the best thing is jump in, right. You know, dip your toe in the water, but continue to evolve that skill set. And, you know, don't, don't be shy. It's a leap of faith for some of us who've been in the industry a bit longer. We like to look at ourselves as the craftsman of the network, but now it's definitely a software centricity and programmability, right? >>So Eric, you've got some digital exhaust out there too, that I was able to dig up going back to 2002 752 page book and the very back corner of a dark dirty dusty Amazon warehouse is managing Cisco network security, 752 pages. Wow. How has security change from a time where before I could just read a book, a big book, you know, throw some protocols in and probably block a bunch of ports to the world that we live in today, where everything is connected. Everything is API driven, everything is software defined. You've got pieces of workloads spread out all over the place and Oh, by the way, you need to bake security in at every single level of the application stack. >>Yeah, no, I'm so, wow. The kudos that you, you found that book I'm really impressed. There was a thank you a little street, correct. So I want to hit on something that you, you talked about. Cause I think it's very important to, to this overall conversation. If we think about the scale of the network and Coon hit on it briefly, you talked about it as well. We're seeing a massive explosion of devices by the estimated by the end of this year, there's going to be about 27 billion devices on the global internet. That's about 3.7 devices for every man, woman and child life. And if we extrapolate that out over the course of the next decade on the growth trajectory we're on. And if you look at some of the published research on this, it's estimated there could be upwards of 500 billion devices accessing the global internet on a, on a daily basis in the primarily that, that, that is a IOT devices, that's digitally connected devices. >>Anything that can be connected will be connected, but then introduces a really interesting security challenge because every one of those devices that is accessing the global internet is within a company's infrastructure or accessing pieces of corporate data is a potential attack factor. So we really need to, and I think the right expression for this is we need to reimagine security because security is, as you said, not about parameters. You know, I wrote that book back in 2002, I was talking about firewalls and a cutting edge technology was intrusion prevention and intrusion detection. Now we need to look at security really in the, in the guys up or under the, under the, under the realm of really two aspects, the identity who is accessing the data and the context, what data is being accessed. And that is going to require a level of intelligence, a level of automation and the technologies like machine learning and automated intelligence are going to be our artificial intelligence rather are going to be table stakes because of the sheer scale of what we're trying to secure is going to be untenable under current, you know, just current security practices. I mean, the network is going to have to be incredibly intelligent and leverage again, a lot of that, uh, that AI type of data to match patterns of potential attacks and ideally shut them down before they ever cause any type of damage. >>Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, one thing that COVID has done a bunk many things is kind of retaught us all about the power of exponential curves and how extremely large those things are and how fast they grow. We at Dave runs it on a Google cloud a couple of years ago. And I remember him talking about early days at Google when they were starting to map out kind of, as you described kind of map out their growth curves, and they just figured out they could not hire if they hired everybody, they couldn't hire enough people to deal with it. Right. So really kind of rethinking automation and rethinking about the way that you manage these things and the level, right. The old, is it a pet or is it, or is it, um, uh, part of a herd and, and I think it's interesting what you talked about, uh, con really the human powered internet and being driven by a lot of this video, but to what you just said, Eric, the next big wave, right. >>Is IOT and five G. And I think, you know, you talk about 3.7 million devices per person. That's nothing compared to right. All these sensors and all these devices and all these factories, because five G is really targeted to machine the machines, which there's a lot of them and they trade a lot of information really, really quickly. So, you know, I want to go back to you Coon thinking about this next great wave in a five G IOT kind of driven world where it's kind of like when voice kind of fell off compared to IP traffic on the network. I think you're going to see the same thing, kind of human generated data relative to machine generated data is also going to fall off dramatically as a machine generated data just skyrocket through the roof. >>Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think too, also what Eric touched on the visibility on that, and they've been able to process that data at the edge. That's going to catalyze cloud adoption even further, and it's going to, you know, make the role of the network, the connectivity of it all and the security within that crucially important. And then you look at the role of programmability within that. We're seeing the evolution going so fast. You look at the element of the software defined network in an IOT speed space. We see that we have a host Sarah that are not necessarily, um, you know, behaving like other hosts would, uh, on a network, for example, manufacturing floor, uh, production robot, or a security camera. And what we're seeing is we're seeing, you know, partners and customers employing programmability to make sure that we overcome some of the shortcomings, uh, in terms of where the network is at, but then how do you customize it in terms of the relevance that can provide, >>Um, bringing on board those, uh, those hosts in a very transparent way, and then, you know, keep, keep the agility of it and keep the speed of innovation going. >>So, Eric, I want to come back to you and shift gears kind of back to the people will leave the IOT in the machines along, along for a minute, but I'm curious about what does beat the boss. I mean, I go to your LinkedIn profile and it's just filled with congratulatory statements, but everyone's talking about beating the boss. You know, it's, it's a really, you know, kind of interesting and different way to, to motivate people, to build this new skillset in terms of getting software certifications, uh, within the Cisco world. And I just thought it was really cute the way that you, uh, clearly got people motivated, cause there's posts all over the place and they've all got their, their nice big badge or their certification, but, you know, at a higher level, it is a different motivation to be a developer versus an you're an a technician. And it's kind of a different point of view. And I just wonder if you could share, you know, some of the ways that you're, you're kind of encouraging, you know, kind of this transformation within your own workforce, as well as the partners, et cetera, and really adopting kind of almost a software first and this program kind of point of view versus, you know, I'm just wiring stuff up. >>Apparently a lot of people like to beat me. So I mean, not itself was a, was a, a, it was a great success, but you know, if we think we take a step back, you know, what is Cisco about as an organization? Um, I mean, obviously he looked back to the very early days of our vision, right? It was, it was to change the way the world worked, played, live and learn. And that you think about, and you hit on this when we were, you know, we were discussion with co with Kuhn in the early days of COVID. We really saw that play out as so much shifted from, you know, in-person type of interactions to virtual interactions in the network that, uh, that our, our customers, our partners, our employees built over the course of the last several years, the last three decades really helped the world continue to, um, to, to do business for students to continue to go to school or clinicians, to connect with patients. >>If I think about that mission to me, programmability is just the next iteration of that mission, continuing to enable the world to communicate, continuing, to enable customers, employees, uh, partners, uh, to essentially leverage the network for more than just connectivity now to leverage it for critical insight. Again, if we look at some of the, uh, some of the use cases that we're seeing for social distancing and contact tracing and network has a really important place to play there because we can pull insight from it, but it isn't necessarily an out of the box type of integration. So I look at programmability and in what we're doing with, with dev net to give relevance to the network for those types of really critical conversations that every organization is having right now, it's a way to extrapolate. It's a way to pull critical data so that I can make a decision. >>And if that is automated, or if that decision requires some type of manual intervention, regardless, we're still about connecting. And in this case, we're connecting insight with the people who need it most, right. The debit challenge we ran is really in respect for how critical this new skill set is going to be. It's not enough, like I said, just to connect the world anymore. We need to leverage that network, the network for that critical insight. And when we drove, we were, we created the beat, the boss challenge. It was really simple. Hey guys, I think this is important and I am going to go out and I'm going to achieve the certification myself, because I don't want to continue to be very relevant. I want to continue to be able to provide that insight for my customers and partners. So therefore I'm going for anybody that can get there before me. Maybe there's a little incentive tied to it and the incentive, although it's funny, we interviewed a lot of, a lot of our team who, who achieved it when incentive was secondary, they just wanted to have the bragging rights, like yeah, I beat Eric. Right? >>Right. Absolutely. No, it's a, it's it, you know, putting your money where your mouth is, right. If it's important, then why you should do it too. And, and you know, the whole, you're not asking people to do what you wouldn't do yourself. So I think there's a lot of good leadership, uh, leadership lessons there as well, but I want to extend kind of the conversation on the covert impact, right? Cause I'm sure you've seen all the social media means, you know, who's driving your digital transformation, the CEO, the CMO or COVID. And we all know the answer to the question, but you know, you guys have already been dealing with kind of an increased complexity around enterprise infrastructure world in terms of cloud and public cloud and hybrid cloud and multi cloud. And people are trying to move stuff all the way around now suddenly had this COVID moment right in, in March, which is really a light switch moment. >>People didn't have time to plan or prepare for suddenly everybody working from home. And it's not only you, but your spouse and your kids and everybody else. So I, but now we're six months plus into this thing. And I would just love to get your perspective and kind of the change from, Oh my goodness, we have to react to the light switch moment. What do we do to make sure people can, can get, get what they need when they need it from where they are a bubble, but then really moving from this is a, an emergency situation, a stop gap situation to, Hmm, this is going to extend for some period of time. And even when it's the acute crisis is over, you know, this is going to drive a real change in the way that people communicate in the way that people, where they sit and do their jobs and, and kind of how customers are responding accordingly as the, you know, kind of the narrative has changed from an emergency stop gap to this is the new normal that we really need to plan for. >>So, uh, I think, I think you said it very well. I think anything that could be digitized, any, any interaction that could be driven virtually was, and what's interesting is we, as you said, we went from that light switch moment where I, and I believe the status, this, and I'll probably get number wrong, but like in the United States here at the beginning, at the end of February, about 2% of the knowledge worker population was virtual, you know, working from home or in a, in a remote work environment. And over the course of about 11 days, that number went from 2% to 70%. Wow. Interesting that it worked, you know, there was a lot of hiccups along the way, and there was a lot of organizations making really quick decisions on how do I enable VPN scale of mass? How do I leverage, uh, you know, things like WebEx for virtual meetings and virtual connectivity, uh, much faster now that as you said, that we kind of gotten out of the fog of, of, of war for our fog of battle organizations are looking at what they accomplished. >>And it was nothing short of Herculean and looking at this now from a transition to, Oh my gosh, we need to change too. We have an opportunity to change. And we're looking, we see a lot of organizations specifically around, uh, financial services, healthcare, uh, the, uh, the K through 20, uh, educational environment, all looking at how can they do more virtually for a couple of reasons. Obviously there is a significant safety factor. And again, we're still in that we're still on the height of this pandemic. They want to make sure their employees, their customers, students, patients remain safe. But second, um, we've found in, in discussions with a lot of senior it executives that our customers, that people are happier working from home, people are more productive working from home. And that, again, the network that's been built over the course of the last few decades has been resilient enough to allow that to happen. >>And then third, there is a potential cost savings here outside of people. The next most expensive resource that organizations are paying for is real estate. If they can shrink that real estate footprint while providing a better user experience at the locations that they're maintaining, again, leveraging things like location services, leveraging things like a unified collaboration. That's very personalized to the end user's experience. They're going to do that. And again, they're going to save money. They're going to have happier employees and ultimately they're going to make their, uh, their employees and their customers a lot safer. So we see, we believe that there is in some parts of the economy, a shift that is going to be more permanent and some estimates put it as high as 15% of the current workforce is going to stay in there in a virtual or a semi virtual working environment for the foreseeable future. >>And I, and I, and I would say, I'd say 15% is low, especially if you, if you qualify it with, you know, part time, right. I, there was a great interview we were doing and talking about working from home, we used to work from home as the exception, right? Cause the cable person was coming, are you getting a new washing machine or something where now that's probably getting, you know, in many cases we'll shift to the other where I'm generally gonna work from home unless, you know, somebody is in town or having an important meeting or there's some special collaboration that drives me to be in. But you know, I want to go back to you Kuhn and, and really doubled down on, you know, I think most people spent too much time focusing, especially, we'll just say within the virtual events base where we play on the things you can't do virtually, we can't meet in the hall. >>We can't grab a quick coffee and a drink instead of focusing on the positive things like we're accomplishing right here, you're in Belgium, right. Eric is in Ohio, we're in California. Um, and you know, we didn't take three days to, to travel and, and check into a hotel and all that stuff to get together, uh, for this period of time. So there's a lot of stuff that digital enables. And I think, you know, people need to focus more on that versus continuing to focus on the two or three things that, that it doesn't replace and it doesn't replace those. So let's just get that off the table and move on with our lives. Cause those aren't coming back anytime soon. >>No, totally. I think it's the balance of those things. It's guarding the fact that you're not necessarily working for home. I think the trick there is you could be sleeping at the office, but I think the positives are way, way more outspoken. Um, I, you know, I look at myself, I got much more exercise time in these last couple of months than I usually do because you don't travel. You don't have the jet lag and the connection. And then you talked about those face to face moments. I think a lot of people are in a way, um, wanting to go back to the office part time as, as Eric also explained. But a lot of it you can do virtually we have virtual coffees with team or, you know, even here in Belgium, our, our local general manager has a virtual effort. TIF every Friday obviously skipped the one this week. But, uh, you know, there's, there's ways to be very creative with the technology and the quality of the technology that the network enables, um, you know, to, to get the best of both worlds. Right? >>So I just, we're going to wrap the segment. I want to give you guys both the last word you both been at Cisco for a while and, you know, Susie, we, and the team on dev net has really grown this thing. I think we were there at the very beginning couple of four, five, six years ago. I can't keep track of time anymore, but you know, it's really, really grown and, you know, the timing is terrific to get into this more software defined world, which is where we are. I wonder if you could just, you know, kind of share a couple thoughts as you know, with a little bit of perspective and you know, what you're excited about today and kind of what you see coming down the road since you guys have been there for a while you've been in this space, uh, let's start with Yukon. >>I think the possibility it creates, I think really programmability software defined is really about the art of the possible it's what you can dream up and then go code. Um, uh, Eric talked about the relevance of it and how it maximizes that relevance on a customer basis. Um, you know, and then it is the evolution of, of the teams in terms of the creativity that they can bring to it. Uh, we're seeing really people dive into that and customers, um, co-creating with us. And I think that's where we're going in terms of like the evolution of the value proposition there in terms of what technology >>Can provide, but also how it impacts people. Has it been discussed and redefines process? >>I love that the art of the possible, which is a lot harder to execute in a, in hardware than software certainly takes a lot longer. I'd love to get your, uh, your thoughts. >>Absolutely. So I started my career at Cisco, uh, turning, uh, putting IP phones onto the network. And back then, you know, it was, you know, 2001, 2002, when, uh, the idea of putting telephones onto the network was such a, um, just such an objectionable idea. And so many purists were telling us all the reasons it wouldn't work. Now, if we go forward again, 19 years, the idea of not having them plugging into the network is a ridiculous idea. So we have a, we're looking at an inflection point in this industry, and it's really, it's not about programming. It's not necessarily about programming. It's about doing it smarter. It's about being more efficient. It's about driving automation, but again, it is, it's about unlocking the value of what the network is. We've moved so far past. What can, you know, just connectivity, the network touches everything and it's more workload moves to the cloud is more workload moves to things like containers. >>Um, the network is the really, the only common element that ties all of these things together. The network needs to take its rightful place, uh, in the end, the, it lexicon as being that critical or that poor critical insight provider, um, for, for how users are interacting with the network, how users are interacting with applications, how applications are interacting with them in another program, ability is a way to do that more efficiently, uh, with greater a greater degree of certainty with much greater relevance into the overall delivery of it services and digitization. So to me, I think we're going to look back 20 years from now, probably even 10 and say, man, we used to configure things manually. What was that like? And I think, I think really this is, this is the future. And I think we want to be aligned with where we're going versus where we've been. >>All right. Well, Coon, Eric, thank you for, for sharing your perspective. You know, it's, it's really nice to have, you know, some historical reference, uh, and it's also nice to be living in a new age where you can, you can, you know, stay at the same company and, and still refresh, you know, new challenges, new opportunities and grow this thing. Cause as you said, I remember those IP first IP phone days and I thought, well, mob bell must be happy because the old mother's day problem is finally solved when we don't have to have a dedicated connection between every mother and every child in the middle of may. So good news. So thank you very much for sharing your, uh, your insights and really, uh, really enjoyed the >>Thank you. >>We've been covering dev net create for a number of years. I think since the very first show and Susie, we and the team really built a practice, built a company, built a lot of momentum around software in the Cisco ecosystem and in getting devs really to start to build applications and drive kind of the whole software defined networking thing forward. And a big part of that is partners and working with partners and, and developing solutions and, you know, using brain power, that's outside of the four walls of Cisco. So we're excited to have, uh, our next guest, uh, a partner for someone is Brad Hoss. He is the engineering director for dev ops at Presidio, Brad. Great to see you. >>Hey Jeff, great to be here. >>Absolutely. And joining him is Chuck Stickney. Chuck is the business development architect for Cisco dev net partners. And he has been driving a whole lot of partner activity for a very long period of time. Chuck, great to see you. >>Thanks Jeff. Great to be here and looking forward to this conversation. >>Absolutely. So let's, let's start with you Chuck, because I think, um, you know, you're leading this kind of partner effort and, and you know, software defined, networking has been talked about for a long time and you know, it's really seems to be maturing and, and software defined everything right. Has been taking over, especially with, with virtualization and moving the flexibility and the customer program ability customability in software and Mo and taking some of that off the hardware. Talk about, you know, the programs that you guys are putting together and how important it is to have partners to kind of move this whole thing forward, versus just worrying about people that have Cisco badges. >>Yeah, Jeff, absolutely. So along this whole journey of dev net where we're, we're trying to leverage that customization and innovation built on top of our Cisco platforms, most of Cisco's businesses transacted through partners. And what we hear from our customers and our partners is they want to, our customers want to way to be able to identify, does this partner have the capabilities and the skills necessary to help me go down this automation journey I'm trying to do, do a new implementation. I want to automate that. How can I find a partner to, to get there? And then we have some of our partners that have been building these practices going along the step in that journey with us for the last six years, they really want to say, Hey, how can I differentiate myself against my competitors and give an edge to my customers to show them that, yes, I have these capabilities. I've built a business practice. I have technology, I have technologists that really understand this capability and they have the net certifications to prove it, help me be able to differentiate myself throughout our ecosystem. So that's really what our Danette partner specialization is all about. >>Right. That's great. And Brad, you're certainly one of those partners and I want to get your perspective because partners are oftentimes a little bit closer to the customer cause you've got your kind of own set of customers that you're building solutions and just reflect on, we know what happened, uh, back in March 15th, when basically everybody was told to go home and you can't go to work. So, you know, there's all the memes and social media about who, you know, who pushed forward your digital transformation, the CEO, the CMO or COVID. And we all know what the answer is, whatever you can share some information as to what happened then, and really for your business and your customers, and then reflect now we're six months into it months plus, and, and you know, this new normal is going to continue for a while. How's the customer attitudes kind of changed now that they're kind of buckled down past the light switch moment and really we need to put in place some foundation to carry forward for a very long time potentially. >>Yeah, it's really quite interesting actually, you know, when code first hit, we got a lot of requests to help with automation of provisioning our customers and in the whole digital transformation got really put on hold for a little bit there and I'd say it became more of, of the workplace transformation. So we were quickly, uh, you know, migrating customers to, you know, new typologies where instead of the, the, you know, users sitting in those offices, they were sitting at home and we had to get them connected rapidly in a, we have a lot of success there in those beginning months with, you know, using automation and programmability, um, building, you know, provisioning portals for our customers to get up and running really fast. Um, and that, that, that was what it looked like in those early days. And then over time, I'd say that's the asks from our customers has started to transition a little bit. >>You know, now they're asking, you know, how can I take advantage of the technology to, you know, look at my offices in a different way, you know, for example, you know, how many people are coming in and out of those locations, you know, what's the usage of my conference rooms. Um, are there, uh, are there, um, situations where I can use that information? Like how many people are in the building and at a certain point in time and make real estate decisions on that, you know, like, do I even need this office anymore? So, so the conversations have really changed in ways that you couldn't have imagined before March. Right. >>And I wonder with, with you Chuck, in terms of the Cisco point of view, I mean, the network is amazing. It had had, COVID struck five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, clearly there's a lot of industries that are suffering badly entertainment, um, restaurant, business, transportation, they, you know, hospitality, but for those of us in kind of the information industry, the switch was pretty easy. Um, you know, and, and the network enables the whole thing. And so I wonder if, you know, kind of from your perspective as, as suddenly, you know, the importance of the network, the importance of security and the ability now to move to this new normal very quickly from a networking perspective. And then on top of that, having, you know, dev net with, with the software defined on top, you guys were pretty much in a good space as good as space as you could be given this new challenge thrown at you. >>Yeah, Jeff, we completely agree with that. A new Cisco has pushed the idea that the network is transformational. The network is the foundation, and as our customers have really adopted that message, it is enabled that idea for the knowledge workers to be able to continue on. So for myself, I've, I've worked for home the entire time I've been at Cisco. So the last 13 years, this is, you know, the, the change to the normalcy is I never get on a plane anymore, but my day to day functions are still the same. And it's built because of the capabilities we have with the network. I think the transition that we've seen in the industry, as far as kind of moving to that application type of economy, as we go to microservices, as we go to a higher dependency upon cloud, those things have really enabled the world really to be able to better respond to this, to this COVID situation. And I think it's helped to, to justify the investments that's that our customers have made as well as what our partners have been, being able to do to deliver on that multicloud capability, to take those applications, get them closer to the end user instead of sitting in a common data center and then making it more applicable to, to users wherever they may be, not just inside of that traditional form. >>Right. Right. It's interesting that Brad, you, you made a comment on another interview. I was watching getting ready for this one in terms of, uh, applications now being first class citizens was, was what you said. And it's kind of interesting coming from an infrastructure point of view, where before it was, you know, what do I have and what can I build on it now really it's the infrastructure that responds back to the application. And even though you guys are both in the business of, of networking and infrastructure, it's still this recognition that apps first is the way to go, because that gives people the competitive advantage that it gives them the ability to react in the marketplace and to innovate and move faster. So, you know, it's, it's a really interesting twist to be able to support an application first, by having a software defined in a more programmable infrastructure stack. >>Yeah, no doubt. And, you know, I think that the whole push to cloud was really interesting in the early days, it was like, Hey, we're going to change our applications to be cloud first. You know? And then I think the terminology changed over time, um, to more cloud native. So when we, when we look at what cloud has done over the past five years with customers moving, you know, their, their assets into the cloud in the early days that we were all looking at it just like another data center, but what it's really become is a place to host your applications. So when we talk about cloud migrations with our customers now, we're, we're no longer talking about, you know, the assets per se, we're talking about the applications and what did those applications look like? And even what defines an application right now, especially with the whole move to cloud native and microservices in the automation that helps make that all happen with infrastructure as code. >>You're now able to bundle the infrastructure with those applications together as a single unit. So when you define that application, as infrastructure, as code the application in this definition of what those software assets for the infrastructure are, all are wrapped together and you've got change control, version control, um, and it's all automated, you know, it's, it's a beautiful thing. And I think it's something that we've all kind of hoped would happen. You know, in, when I look back at the early definitions of software defined networking, I think everybody was trying to figure it out and they didn't really fully understand what that meant now that we can actually define what that network infrastructure could look like as it's, as it's wrapped around that application in a code template, maybe that's Terraform or Ansible, whatever that might be, whatever method or tool that you're using to bring it all together. It's, you know, it's really interesting now, I think, I think we've gotten to the point where it's starting to make a lot more sense than, you know, those early days of SDN, uh we're out, you know, it was, was it a controller or is it a new version of SNMP? You know, now it makes sense it's actually something tangible. >>Right, right. But still check, as you said, right. There's still a lot of API APIs and there's still a lot of component pieces to these applications that are all run off the network that all have to fit, uh, that had to fit together. You know, we cover PagerDuty summit and you know, their whole thing is trying to find out where the, where the problems are within the very few microseconds that you have before the customer abandons their shopping cart or whatever the particular application. So again, the network infrastructure and the program ability super important. But I wonder if you could speak to the automation because there's just too much stuff going on for individual people to keep track of and they shouldn't be keeping track of it because they need to be focusing on the important stuff, not this increasing amount of bandwidth and traffic going through the network. >>Yeah, absolutely. Jeff said the bandwidth that's necessary in order to support everybody working from home to support this video conference. I mean, we used to do this sitting face to face. Now we're doing this over the internet. The amount of people necessary to, to be able to facilitate that type of traffic. If we're doing it the way we did 10 years ago, we would not scale it's automation. That makes that possible. That allows us to look higher up the ability to do that. Automatic provisional provisioning. Now that we're in microservices now, everything is cloud native. We have the ability to, to better, to better adjust, to and adapt to changes that happen with the infrastructure below hand. So if something goes wrong, we can very quickly spend something ups to take that load off where traditionally it was open up a ticket. Let me get someone in there, let me fix it. >>Now it's instantaneously identify the solution, go to my playbook, figure out exactly what solution I need to deploy and put that out there. And the network engineering team, the infrastructure engineering team, they just simply need to get notified that this happened. And as long as there's traceability and a point that Brad made, as far as you being able to go through here doing the automation of the documentation side of it. I know when I was a network engineer, one of the last things we ever did was documentation. But now that we have the API is from the infrastructure. And then the ability to tie that into other systems like an IP address management or a change control, or a trouble ticketing system, that whole idea of I made an infrastructure change. And now I can automatically do that documentation update and record. I know who did it. I know when they did it and I know what they did, and I know what the test results were even five years ago, that was fantasy land. Now, today that's just the new normal, that's just how we all operate. Right. >>Right, right. So I want to get your take on the other side, >>Cloud multicloud >>Public cloud, you know, as, as I think you said Brad, when public cloud first came out, there was kind of this, this rush into, we're going to throw everything in there then for, for, for different reasons. People decided maybe that's not the best, the best solution, but really it's horses for courses. Right. And, and I think it was pretty interesting that, that you guys are all supporting the customers that are trying to figure out where they're going to put their workloads. And Oh, by the way, that might not be a static place, right. It might be moving around based on, you know, maybe I do my initial dev and, and, and Amazon. And then when I go into production, maybe I want to move it into my data center and then maybe I'm having a big promotion or something I want to flex capability. So from, from your perspective in helping customers work through this, cause still there's a lot of opinions about what is multicloud, what is hybrid cloud and you know, it's horses for courses, how are you helping people navigate that? And what does having programmable infrastructure enable you to do for helping customers kind of sort through, you know, everybody talks about their journey. I think there's still, you know, kind of bumbling down, bumbling down paths, trying to find new things, what works, what doesn't work. And I think it's still really early days and trying to mesh all this stuff together. Yeah, >>Yeah. No doubt. It is still early days. And you know, I, I, I go back to it being application centric because, you know, being able to understand that application, when you move to the cloud, it may not look like what it used to look like when you, when you move it over there, you may be breaking parts off of it. Some of them might be running on a platform as a service while other pieces of it are running as infrastructure as service. And some of it might still be in your data center. Those applications are becoming much more complex than they used to be because we're breaking them apart into different services. Those services could live all over the place. So with automation, we really gain the power of being able to combine those things. As I mentioned earlier, those resources, wherever they are and be defined in that infrastructure as code and automation. >>But you know, aside from, I think we focus a lot about provisioning. When we talk about automation, we also have these amazing capabilities on, on the side of, uh, operations too. Like we've got streaming telemetry, and the ability to gain insights into what's going on in ways that we didn't have before, or at least in the, in, you know, in the early days of monitoring software, right? You knew exactly what that device was, where it was. It probably had a friendly name, like maybe it was, uh, something from the Hobbit right now. You've got things coming up and spinning and spinning up and spinning down, moving all over the place. In that thing. You used to know what that was. Now you have to quickly figure out where it went. So the observability factor is a huge thing that I think everybody, um, should be paying attention to attention, to moving forward with regards to when you're moving things to the cloud or even to other data centers or, you know, in your premise, I'm breaking that into microservices. >>You really need to understand what's going on. And the, you know, programmability and API APIs and, you know, yang models are tied into streaming telemetry. Now there's just so many great things coming out of this, you know, and it's all like a data structure that, that people who are going down this path and the dev net path there, they're learning these data structures and being able to rationalize and make sense of that. And once you understand that, then all of these things come together, whether it's cloud or a router or switch, um, Amazon, you know, it doesn't matter. You're on, you're all speaking a common language, which is that data structure. >>That's great. Chuck, I want to shift gears a little bit. Cause there was something that you said in another interview when I was getting ready for this one about, about in a dev net, really opening up a whole different class of partners for Cisco, um, as, as really more of a software, a software lead versus kind of the traditional networking lead. I wonder if you can put a little more color on that. Um, because clearly as you said, partners are super important. It's your primary go to market and, and Presidios, I'm sure the best partner that you have in the whole world that's and you know, you said there's some, there's some, you know, non traditional people that would not ever be a Cisco partner that suddenly you guys are playing with because of really the software lead. >>Yeah. Jeff that's exactly right. So as we've been talking to folks with dev nets and whether it'd be at one of the Cisco live events in the dev net zone or the prior dev net create events, we'll have, we'll have people come up to us who Cisco today views as a, as a customer because they're not in our partner ecosystem. They want to be able to deliver these capabilities to our customers, but they have no interest in being in the resell market. This what we're doing with the doublet that gives us the ability to bring those partners into the ecosystem, share them with our extremely large dev net community so they can get access to those, to those potential customers. But also it allows us to do partner to partner type of integration. So Brad and Presidio, they built a fantastic networking. They always have the fantastic networking business, but they've built this fantastic automation business that's there, but they may come into, into a scenario where it's working with a vertical or working with the technology case that they may not have an automation practice for. >>We can leverage some of these software specific partners to come in there and do a joint, go to markets where, so they can go where that traditional channel partner can leverage their deep Cisco knowledge in those customer relationships that they have and bring in that software partner almost as a subcontractor to help them deliver that additional business value on top of that traditional stack, that brings us to this business outcomes that the customers are looking for and a much faster fashion and a much more collaborative fashion. That's terrific. Well, again, it's a, it's, it's unfortunate that we can't be in person. I mean, the, the Cisco dev net shows, you know, they're still small, they're still intimate. There's still a lot of, uh, information sharing and, you know, great to see you. And like I said, we've been at the computer museum, I think the last couple of years and in, in San Francisco. So I look forward to a time that we can actually be together, uh, maybe, maybe for next year's event, but, uh, thank you very much for stopping by and sharing the information. Really appreciate it. Happy to be here from around the globe. It's the cube presenting, accelerating automation with Devin brought to you by Cisco. >>When I'm Sean for the cube, your host for accelerating automation with dev net, with Cisco, and we're here to close out the virtual event with Mindy Whaley, senior director, Mandy, take it away. >>Thank you, John. It's been great to be here at this virtual event and hearing all these different automation stories from our different technology groups, from customers and partners. And what I'd like to take a minute now is to let people know how they can continue this experience at DevNet create, which is our free virtual event happening globally. On October 13th, there's going to be some really fun stuff. We're going to have our annual demo jam, which is kind of like an open mic for demos, where the community gets to show what they've been building. We're also going to be, um, giving out and recognizing our dev net creator award winners for this year, which is a really great time where we recognize our community contributors who have been giving back to the community throughout the year. And then we find really interesting channels. We have our creators channels, which is full of technical talks, lightening talks. >>This is where our community, external Cisco people come in share what they've been working on, what they've been working learning during the year. We also have a channel called API action, which is where you can go deep into, you know, IOT or collaboration or data center automation and get demos talks from engineers on how to do certain use cases. And also a new segment called street from engineering, where you get to hear from the engineers, building those products as well. And we have a start now for those people just getting started, who may need to dive into some basics around coding, API APIs and get that's a whole channel dedicated to getting them started so that they can start to participate in some of the fun challenges that we're going to have during the event. And we're going to have a few fun things. Like we have some definite advocate team members who are awesome, musically talented. They're going to share some performances with us. So, um, we encourage everyone to join us there. Pick your favorite channel, uh, join us in whichever time zone you live in. Cause we'll be in three different time zones. And, um, we would love for you to be there and to hear from you during the event. Thanks so much. >>That's awesome. Very innovative, multiple time zones, accelerating automation with dev net. Thank you so much for watching and we'll see you at dev net create thanks for watching.

>>From around the globe covering Google cloud. Next on there. >>Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is the cube coverage of Google cloud. Next 20 on air it's week seven of nine. Google of course took their event that was supposed to be in person and Moscone, spread it out online. It's all available on demand. Every Tuesday they've been dropping it in the cube. We've got a great lineup that we're going to share with you of our coverage thought event. This is our analysis segment, joining me to help dig into where Google cloud is. Everything happening in the ecosystem. Having to bring in Dave Alante and John furrier, our co-founders co-CEOs and, uh, always hosts of the program, John and Dave. Uh, it was, uh, it was great last year being in the middle of the show floor, uh, with the whole team and the great glam beautiful booth that Google built well, we're remote, but we're still in the middle of all the topics, the big waves and everything like that. So thanks so much for joining me and look forward to digging into it. >>Hey Stu, great to see you remotely. We got to get these events back. His virtual events are nine weeks, three weeks for Ws all day events. DockerCon virtual orders, nobody ecosystem support. I mean, this is really an interesting time and I think Google has laid out an interesting experiment with their multi. I call it summer of cloud program nine weeks with just a sustained demand for your attention. It's going to been a challenge. >>The question always, John, can they keep their attention? John, you laid out, you know, the cube three 65 were, there is 365 days a year, help extract the signal from the noise, help engage with the community. So absolutely want to kind of peel back the onion and see what we think of the event. But let let's, let's start with Google. Dave, you know, you've been digging through the numbers as you always do. Uh, we're we're more than a year since Thomas Kurian came in and you know, what are you hearing? What's the data showing you as to, you know, where Google really sits in the marketplace? How are they doing >>Well still you're right. I mean, Thomas curious now I think he's about 18 months in and in one of my previous breaking analysis, I kind of laid out a four point plan for, for Google. And we can talk about sort of how they're doing there, but, but really the first one is product maturity and there's, there's a number of things that we can assess as it relates to product maturity. The second we talk about it all the time is, is, is go to market. I think the third one is really around differentiation. How does Google uniquely differentiate from the other cloud service providers? And I think the fourth and we saw this earlier this year with Looker is, you know, Google's got a war chest and you know, they can use that to really beef up the cloud. And I think if, if, if you, if you look at it, you know, Google's done a pretty good job with things like fed ramp. >>I mean, these are table stakes in the big cloud. You know, they're starting to do more things around SAP of VMware, uh, windows. I mean, again, these are basic things that you have to do as part of any large cloud provider. I think the other thing we talked about go to market, they've done a number of things there. Karen's really focused on partnerships. He wants to be a hundred percent channel, uh, at the same time they're hiring salespeople. I think they're up over 1500 salespeople right now, uh, which is, you know, we're getting there. I think it was less than that. Obviously when he came on, that's kind of the benchmark, although we don't really know exactly what, what the numbers are. They've kind of launched into public sector. They see what's happening with Amazon there, they see great opportunities. They see, you know, what, what Microsoft is doing. And so public sector, they have to put out bakeoffs so you gotta be in there and at differentiations still a lot of, okay, how can we leverage alphabet our search business and retail, our business and healthcare, um, and edge things like autonomous vehicles. There's, there's some opportunities there. And then as I said, they're doing some M and a two plus billion dollars for Looker, you know, great capability. So I think they're, they're executing on those four and we can talk about what that means in terms of, you know, revenue and position in the market. >>Well, yeah, Dave, maybe it makes sense to let let's, let's walk through the revenue, just so that people understand, you know, where they sit for the longest time it's been, you know, the number three or the number four where Alibaba said, uh, compared to them, but they are still far behind, uh, AWS and Azure. Uh, and have they been closing the gap at all? >>Well, if guys, if you could bring up that chart, that first one, uh, this is are, we really are estimates. You remember now AWS, every quarter gives us a clean number for their infrastructure as a service. And what we've got here is an estimate for full year 2018, 2019 that's calendar year, the growth rates, and then, uh, with a trailing 12 month view. And I think there's a couple of points here. One is you can see the growth. Google grew 89% last year. They were 70% in Q one 59% in Q two. So, so even though it's somewhat declining, they're growing faster than both Azure and AWS, of course, from a smaller base. I think the other thing, if you, if you go back and look at 2019, relative to AWS, Google was one 10th, the size of AWS. Now they're, you know, there's only eight X, so they're starting to close that gap, but still very much a, a quite a distance from the leaders. >>Yeah. Uh, John, maybe if we look at Google under Thomas Currian, of course there's been a real, uh, growth in hiring. So, you know, you're there in the Valley, John, we know lots of really smart people that have joined Google's great enterprise, uh, you know, pedigrees there as well as the ecosystem, uh, that, that wants to be able to partner with Google. You know, what are you seeing? What are you hearing? I like one of the interviews that you did, uh Suneel prody, uh, it was, it was the number two over at Nutanix. Uh, and now we've got an important role in Google cloud, >>Google hiring great people. I got to say, one of the things I'm impressed with is I've always liked the product people. They have great product chops. I'll ask the Google has come from a position of strength on the tech side being Google. Um, and, but the enterprise business is hard too, and they got to hire more enterprise DNA. They're trying to do that at the same time. They're trying to make the table stakes stuff done, move fast during the product side. And then at the same time, create the game changing product with like ant those for instance, um, and then have all those new features. So they're running as fast as they can. Um, they're building product as fast as they can. So you got, you know, developer and operator efficiency, which I love the strategy. However, when you run that fast, there's definitely debt. >>You take on both technical and market debt around trying to make a shortcut. So Google to me, the word in the Valley is great stuff with the people. Product is awesome, getting better, good product people, but still those enterprise features product reliability in terms of not sunsetting products early to, you know, making sure the right support levels are there. These are like the little details that make the difference between an enterprise player and someone who is essentially, you know, moving too fast, get new products being to agile. So yeah, it's a double edged sword for Google. We've said this all the time, but overall I'd give them a solid number three position and still haven't seen the breakout yet. I think ant those can be that if they keep pushing on this operator efficiency, but I just don't think the enterprise is ready for Google yet. And I think there's issues there. >>Yeah. John, you bring up a great point. I know the last couple of times we've been at the show, I feel like I'm scratching my head. It was like, wait, when did lift and shift become sexy? Yes, you want to meet the enterprises where they are, but how is that different from the message that we hear from Microsoft that we hear from AWS? Uh, one of the bigger announcements during the infrastructure week, uh, was about a new program, the rapid assessment and migration plan or ramp, uh, to help customers get from where they are, where they need to be. Uh, it's interesting because of course, if you, you know, for reinvent for years, we had all the systems integrators, helping customers move and migrate, uh, both AWS and Azure have lots of migration solutions out there. So, you know, how will Google differentiate themselves and make different there? >>Well, they don't, they don't really know. I mean, they have put stuff down on paper, but here's the problem that Google has to overcome to make it a truly a fast growing cloud player. They got to nail the product features that they need to be in the marketplace. And the ecosystem really wants to work with Google. I see retail is lay up for them and they're doubling down on that. They've got smart people working on this, but the ecosystem and adding product features are two major heavy lifts ecosystems about moneymaking. At the end of the day. I know that sounds kind of greedy in this era of empathy and missions and values, but at the end of the day, if you're not making your ecosystem money, which means keep products around support for a certain number of >>Years and have incentives economically for people to build software. They're not going to work on your platform. And I think Google needs to understand that. Clearly. I just don't see it. I mean, I just don't see people saying, I love Google so much. I'm making so much cash and success. Um, and they got some good products. You know, I, like I said, products on ecosystem are things they're going to ratchet up super fast. Well, there's a couple of places, a couple of partners they violated, like I said, durian wants to be a hundred percent channel-based channel fulfillment. And when you talk to the channel, they do tell you, yo Google there they're being aggressive. Deloitte, you know, they chart chart out as a big partner HCL. Now of course, those guys are all working with everybody, but they're starting to put resources around that in terms of training and certification. >>And of course, other, you know, much smaller resellers and partners. So that's, that's interesting, right? That being really super channel friendly, that's a differentiator to your point, John, that's making be do that because they're not coming from a position of strength channel. No, they are channel friendly. Can, you can say you're channel friendly, but if your product doesn't work, the channel will reject you instantly. They're, they're a, they're a tough critic and they need to have reliability. So again, this is not really a problem with Google. It's just a product is evolving fast at the same time, they're trying to roll out a channel. So if you want to have a good rental strategy, you gotta have a good one posture and programs, but the product has to be enabling and reliable. And if someone's building software on top of a cloud platform and stuff doesn't work or changes, that's more cost more cost means more training, more hiring. >>If someone leaves, how does it scale? These are like really important things around channel. Cause they have to sell to the customer and support their name's on the line. So again, channels and easy to say thing to do, but to actually do it with a product is hard. And I think Google has that challenge. And again, it's a challenge that they overcome. It will be a great opportunity. Well, and I think that's a good point because it wasn't, it was 2019 when I was like VMware SAP, full blown windows support. I mean, that's, that's really late to the game. And so as I say, product maturity is critical, but there are some, some winners there obviously in analytics, uh, I think big query as get, gets very, very high marks. So there's, there's some real pockets of, of, of positive positivity there. But you know, I would agree though, the maturity is a key factor for the channel to really go on. >>Well, right. If you look, John, you mentioned anthro Santos was the story last year. Uh, and it's, we're all talking about multicloud. Uh, much of the multi-cloud discussion has been, uh, due to Kubernetes. And if it wasn't for Google, we wouldn't have Kubernetes. The concern of course, is that Google took it, it open source. The CNCF took it as a foundation and customers went nuts with it and the other public cloud and even, you know, smaller cloud providers are getting as if not more value than Google is. So what you hear in the back channels, when you say, boy, Google brought this technology out district really help enable their platform. Well, AWS is still winning. AWS has plenty of solutions. They've got interesting things to get, you know, deep solutions, leveraging Kubernetes. Uh, and if you look at Google, they announced anthros last year, it's gone through some updates this year. >>Uh, you know, you both mentioned, uh, working with the partners. One of the things that jumped out at me, uh, there's now something called ant those attached clusters, which means that if I have somebody else's, you know, Kubernetes that is fully certified, I can, I can plug that in and work with Anthem. It was one of the gaps that I saw last year. You hear Google saying, we're partnering with VMware, we're partnering pivotal, but here's. And if you want to use OpenShift or PKS, you know, you need to come over to work with Anthem here. We are understanding that customers are going to have multiple environments and often multiple different Kubernetes solutions out there. Uh, you know, Dave, you mentioned like VMware, of course is a really important solution. VMware moving along and supporting more Kubernetes. Uh, and the, the update for the solution is the Google cloud VMware engine. >>And absolutely the number one use case they talked about is take your VMs, get them in the cloud and then start using those data and analytic services that are in the public cloud. So we're seeing some maturity here, but you know, Dave, if we look at the multicloud market, you know, it, Google's not the first company that typically comes to mind, you know, VMware, red hat, even Microsoft probably are a little bit higher on people's thoughts. You know, what have you been seeing? It's an area we've been spending a lot of time last couple of years hybrid and multicloud. >>Well, we have some data on this guys, if you would pull up that next graphic and this, this is observing data from our data partner ETR and what this shows on the vertical axis is the spending momentum. So are you spending more or less? And then it's really a net score, which in other words, to subtract the less from the morning when we have leftover that's, the vertical axis high is higher, is better. And then the horizontal axis is markets, bear really presence in the data set, and you can see the hyperscaler guys, you know, that's where you want to be Microsoft AWS. They're always sort of separating from the pack. You'd love to see Google. Is there a hyperscaler out there with those guys, but they're not one of the interesting things that we're seeing in the dataset Stu and John VMware cloud on AWS has really popped up. >>So this thing of this notion of hybrid as part of the cloud ecosystem and multi-cloud is really starting to have legs. And you can also see red hat with, with open shift and believe it or not even OpenStack as a telco, you see in that pop up as well as VMware cloud, which is comprises cloud foundation and other components. So you see that hybrid and multicloud zone. And I think, I think you got to put Google, you know, right there, you can see where IBM and Oracle are for just for context, they don't have the momentum, they don't have the market presence in cloud, but they have a cloud. So that's kind of how the landscape is. And I think Google, from a standpoint of ant dos, they, again, they have to be trying to be open, leverage their Coopernetties chops and try to differentiate from certainly AWS. I think your point is right on, I think Microsoft has a pretty strong story there, but Google's got a clean story and they're investing and I think it's a good position for them. Not as, not as good as the other two, but you're when you're coming from behind, you have to try to differentiate and they are. >>Yeah, well, Dave, you've always said the rich get richer when these markets, but now with COVID that they are getting richer. Amazon honestly, stock I'm billion trillion, $2 billion valuation for Apple Google on the cloud side. This is, I think that if they had more product leadership in certain areas, I think they'd be doing more, more with their cloud, but they have some IP that could come out of this post COVID growth strategy for them, where it could be a game changer. So if you look at security and you look at identity, and one of the things that caught my attention in the anthesis announcement was this, uh, this, uh, identity service that they have, which is like, uh, open ID kind of connect thing. Identity will be critical because Google has so much IP around, um, you know, um, user login information around the mobile on the mobile side. >>I mean, Jennifer Lynn on this many times that they could leverage that and really helped the edge secure. And from a user access standpoint, having identification in the Anthem would be great. And this whole modern application trend is kind of where the puck is going. So you're there kind of skating to that puck area. And also they're focused on operators. This multicloud thing hits a home run with operators, because if you can create an abstraction layer between multiple clouds and have this modern kind of top layer to it, you're in a good position, but the insiders here in Silicon Valley and in the industry that I talked, they were all saying that Google has huge IP in their network. They have a very solid network. So what's interesting to me, as a Google can take leverage some of those network pain points and then bring anthesis that connective tissue. They got a real opportunity, but they've got to pull it off, right? So covert hitting, probably the worst thing that could have happened to Google because they were just a couple feet from the goal line on this, on this market in terms of really exploding. But I think they're well positioned. I'm not down on Google at all. >>I think that, you know, I'm glad you brought that up, John, because I think Cove was a two edged sword for them. I just published last week in my breaking analysis this weekend, actually that there were three big tailwinds insecurity as a result of coal go away. And identity was one of those cloud of course, was, was the other one. And then endpoint security was the third. And so that's a, that's, that's a, you know, kind of good news for, for, for identity. The flip side of it is if you go back and look at where Amazon and Microsoft were in terms of their growth, relative to where Google is now, Amazon and Microsoft appear to have been growing larger. Now these things go in an S curve, you know, it's kind of an old guy that starts out slow and then gets really steep. So we may actually see Google accelerate. Uh, but >>I think you wait in that it may have to wait until after COVID. So it's really a Jewish store, good news on the identity side. And Google's well positioned, but necessarily bad news from a growth standpoint. Well, there's three areas to that. You know, you and I have been riffing on lately and we've, haven't published a lot yet because we're going to wait until we have our event cube con event in October. But there's three areas, I think ant those points too. And they even say this kind of in their own way, um, multicloud, which is customers, connecting customers anywhere and finding device and whatnot. So customer connection points, customer enterprises, improved developer, modernized developer, the developer market, and then three operators, three areas that are all moving trains. They're all shifting under their feet. So I think they're doing great on developer side because they have great traction. >>We've covered that with coop con and other areas have done amazing work operator efficiency, no problem. I think they got a lot of great credit there and are building and adding new stuff. It's the customer piece that's weak. They, I think they really got to continue to double down on what is the customer deployment, because let's face it, enterprise customers aren't as savvy as Google or the hyperscaler. So when you roll into main street enterprise, especially with Cova Dave, as you pointed out, are they sitting there really grokking Coobernetti's on bare metal? And at those they're like, shit, how do I keep my network alive? So it, I just think isn't a long yet operationally on the customer side. And I think that is a weakness, um, and on Google's formula and they got to just make that easier. >>Yeah, no, no great, great points there. Absolutely. In, in talking to a lot of the cloud customers, if they already have an existing relationship that's expanding or accelerating, that is a lot easier than choosing a new environment. So as Dave said, the rich get richer. Um, I mentioned that at, at the start, this is week seven of nine of what Google is doing. Um, we want to get both your, your viewpoints on this event, how they laid it out nine weeks, it's all done on demand. I know when they had the opening keynote, there was a decent rally point. You saw the usual Twitter stream out there. They had a nice median analyst program that kicked off at the beginning. For me personally, there's been some stuff that I've gone back infrastructure week. I watch this week for app modernization. There's definitely some announcements that I'm digging into, but I think overall what I see out there is people rallied at the beginning and then they kind of forgot that the event was going on. Um, you know, what are you seeing? You know, what, what's the new best practice on, you know, how long should an event be? How do you deliver it? How do you get engagement? >>Well, I mean, just to, you know, Tim, Dave will weigh in, but I'm pretty hardcore on my criticism of most of these virtual events, mainly because virtual event platforms and virtual event executions or whatnot, well known as a first kind of generation problem. No one's really been under this kind of disruption when they got to replicate their business value as quickly in an environment they weren't optimized or have the personnel for. So you're seeing a lot of gaps in these virtuals, kinda like multi-cloud and high, where you have tens of different definitions of how to do it. I think Google went to nine weeks cause they really didn't know what to do. And they left a lot of their ecosystem hanging out there because normally Google next is a huge show with great content presentations. Everything's up on YouTube anyway. So on demand is not a build value. >>The real value of Google next was the face to face interactions. The show floor, the ecosystem, the expo hall that is completely absent from the show here. And this is consistent with other events. And honestly, it's over nine weeks, Amazon re-invent, it's going to be over three weeks. And last year they had a music festival. How are they going to replicate that again, this is a huge negative shift for these vendors because they rely so much on these events to get the word out. So it's really hard. Um, so I, I I'm really impressed with the nine week program and the sense of kind of staging it out and kind of the summer of cloud, I would have done things a little bit differently if I was them in terms of making it more exciting, but it's just really difficult to command attention for the audience over nine weeks. >>And I think that's, if they had to go back and do a Mulligan, I would've, they would've probably would've done more activation around the digital rather than a bunch of on demand video. So at least I did something and didn't cancel now the good news is there's a slew of news. We can collaborate on, um, the virtual spaces, the internet. So people are talking, it's just that it's all distributed. No one knows who's there, right? So it's not like an industry event. It's just an online collection of videos like on YouTube. So I felt that lack of intimacy was probably my, my biggest critique. Um, but again, I think he just wanted to move forward and get this behind them. >>I think you nailed it, John. I mean, on the one hand they made it harder for themselves stretching it out over nine weeks. On the other hand, they kind of took the easy way out is putting it up on all on demand. I guess they have analyst programs too, but I felt like they, weren't certainly not even close to what you have in physical. And it's really hard to obviously replicate physical, but I've seen other programs where the intimacy with the analyst and the journalist was much higher and opportunities to have interactions with executives. I felt it was just a little bit removed, actually quite a bit removed would have loved to have seen just a more intimate one-on-one activity. Maybe not one-on-one, but, but one, one to many with a smaller group of analysts and journalists, I think that would have gone a long way. Um, and that, that was missing for me anyway. >>I mean, they could have done nine micro events every week with like a rallying point is to pointed out, um, just really a difficult, I mean, who, who was executing this event? I mean, they have an events team that's used to doing physical events, Moscone and whatever. It's just, they didn't, I don't think had the time to figure it out. Be honest with you. I mean, Google is a company known for search relevance, find what you're looking for and uh, organizing content. I just think they didn't do a good job at all. And I think I didn't have any much attention cycles to it because I was kind of keying in the news, but I didn't know where my friends were. Who's rallying is Stu there. I didn't even, do's tweeting, I'm not following it. Or I missed his tweet. So there's a lot of asynchronous, um, stuff going on with was no, you know, gravity around a community or ecosystem kind of moment where I could schedule an hour at 10 o'clock or multiple times >>Does the day to check in and go to the watering hole or some stuff, >>You know, hub or instance like that. So, you know, something that we're thinking a lot about David's, you know, and I think this is a moving, moving target, but what's clear is that you can create synchronicity and still have the asynchronous programs. So at least we learned that with the Docker con event that we did and the software that we're building. So, you know, virtual events, isn't about just the events, but what happens on inside the event, outside the event, after the event, I think people are too hung up on this. I got to have a portal walled garden model. So I think it's going to be a learning curve for everybody. And I think Google may or may not do nine weeks. We'll see what re-invent does with three weeks. How do you keep people's attention? But three weeks when they're not in Vegas? >>Well, you know, no, I think that physical or virtual, it's your opportunity to write the narrative, to set the tone or set the narrative. And you're seeing this with the conventions, with the political conventions, you know, they're, they're actually, you know, you don't necessarily watch the whole thing, but you get a good sense, you know, post virtual event, what the narrative is. And I think that's cause you know, the media picks it up and I think it's, it's imperative to really do a good job of interacting with the media. You know, the analysts, the ecosystem, the partners, I haven't talked to a ton of partners who have been totally engaged other than, you know, their one-on-one activity. So I think there's an opportunity there to, to really write that narrative, to set that narrative and keep it alive and that, that entices people to go back and watch the man. Then I didn't feel that hook here. >>Yeah, here's the problem that I see with has Google has this problem and Docker con did not have the problem and you know, self-serving, we did that software, but we designed it for this purpose. When I go to an event, you do guys too. But personally, when I go to an event face to face, I like to get a sense of what the collective group at the event is thinking. I fly there, I'm present. I can see the presentation. I can see the pack breakout sessions. I know it's not back. I can get a sense visually. And with my senses on what the collective voice of the group is at an event, does it suck? Is it good? How's the band? What it's, what's the hallway conversation. So I can feel that I had none of that with Google next. Okay. Like, I didn't know, five, no, I had no other than some random things on Twitter, I had no sense what the collective ecosystem thought of the event. >>And I think a lot of the events have that problem where you can do both. You could have the rallying moment where there's a group collective coming together and send people to do that and still have the asynchronous consumption, organizing the content. But that's one of the main benefits. What is what's, what's going on with it? What's the voice of this collective? How are people thinking about this? And who's there? Who can I connect with and maybe follow up with, I didn't feel that this was simply a bunch of videos posted fundamental. Yeah, absolutely. John, >>If you can't feel that energy, is there a Slack channel, is there some chat group, uh, is there some way that, that you can be involved? Uh, definitely a missed opportunity, especially Google's got great collaboration tools. They're tied into all of our calendars would have been something that they could, uh, make ways that we could engage and find out. All right, John and Dave, thank you so much for helping us, uh, you know, really dig through a lot, going on. As we said, this nine week event, uh, we we've got a playlist, uh, that we're, we're going to be broadcasting for some of the key executives. Got, got a lot of the news here. And after this week, which was at modernization, we do have a couple other interviews that will be, uh, coming out, uh, when we have them, but be sure to check out the cube.net, uh, for all the upcoming, as well as search, to be able to find the previous, uh, content there, reach out to at furrier at diva launch date, or meet at Stu for any feedback or comments. We'd love to get your feedback, especially in these times when we can't all be together. So thanks John and Dave for joining and I'm Stu Miniman. Thank you for watching the cube.

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation on June 23rd the Wall Street Journal reported that Dell is exploring strategic options for its approximately 81% share in VMware both Dell and VMware stocks popped on the news we believe that Dell is floating this trial balloon to really gauge investor customer and partner sentiment and perhaps send a signal to the short sellers that you know what Michael Dell has other arrows in his quiver to unlock in case you want to squeeze me I'm gonna squeeze you back who knows hello everyone and welcome to this week's wiki Bond cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis we'll unpack some of the complicated angles in the ongoing VMware saga and assess five scenarios that we think are possible as it pertains to this story as always we're going to bring in some ETR customer data to analyze what's happening with the spending picture let's take a look at what happened and just do a quick recap The Wall Street Journal story said that Dell was considering spinning off VMware or buying the remaining 19 percent of VMware stock that it doesn't own the Journal article cited unnamed sources and said that a spinoff would not likely happen until 7 September 2021 for tax reasons that would mark of course the 5 year anniversary of Dell acquiring EMC and would allow for a tax free transaction always a good thing what's going on here and what options does Dell really have what does it mean for Dell VMware customers and partners we're gonna try to answer those questions today so first of all why would Dell make such a move well I think there's tweet from your own name Marc he's a portfolio manager at one main capital it kind of sums it up he laid out this chart which shows Dells market cap prior to the stock pop you know it's closer to 38 billion today and the value of its VMware owner which is over 50 billion since the stock pop but let me cut to the chase investors value the core assets of Dell which accounts for around 80 billion dollars in revenue when you exclude vmware somewhere south of negative 10 billion dollars why it's because Dell is carrying more than 30 billion dollars of core debt when you exclude Dell Financial Services and it looks like a conglomerate owning the vast majority of VMware shares Michael Dell has something like a 97 percent voting control Cordell is a low margin low growth business and as some have complained that Michael uses VMware as his piggy bank and many investors just won't touch the stock so the stock generally Dell stock has underperformed I've often said even going back to the EMC days that owning the stock of VMware's owner is actually a cheap way to buy vmware but that's assuming that the value somehow gets unlocked at some point so Dell is perhaps signaling that it has some options and other levers to pull as I said you may be trying to give pause to the shorts now let's have a look at some of the ETR spending data and value and evaluate the respective positions of Dell and VMware in the market place this chart here uses the core ETR methodology that we like to talk about all the time for those not familiar we use the concept of net score net score is a simple metric it's like Net Promoter Score sort of the chart shows element the elements of Dells net score so each quarter ETR goes out and ask customers do you plan to adopt the vendor new that's the lime green at 4% spend more relative to last year more meaning more than 6% that's the forest green and you can see that's at 32% flat spend is the grey meaning plus or minus 5% and then decrease spending by 6 percent or greater that's the pink and that's just 11% for Dell or are you replacing the platform to see that that's the bright red there at 7% so net score is a measure of momentum and it's derived by adding the greens and subtracting the Reds and he can see Dell in the last ETR survey which was taken at the height of the pandemic has a net score of 18% now we we colored that soft red it's not terrible but it's not great either now of course this is across Dells entire portfolio and it excludes vmware so what about vmware so this next graphic that we're showing you it applies the exact same methodology to vmware and as you can see vmware has a much higher net score at 35% which of course shouldn't surprise anybody it's a higher growth company but 46% of vmware customers plan to spend more this year relative to last year and only 11% planned to spend less that's pretty strong now what if we combined dell and vmware and looked at them as a single entity hmm wouldn't that be interesting okay here you go so there were nine hundred and seventy five respondents in the last ETR survey when we matched the two companies together and you can see the combined net score is 27% with 42 percent of respondents planning to spend more this year than they did last year so you may be asking well is this any good how does this compare to dell and vmware competitors well I'm glad you asked so here we show that in this chart the net score comparisons so we take the combined dell and vmware at 27% Cisco as we often reported consistently shows pretty strong relative to the enterprise data center players and you can see HPE is a kind of a tepid 17 percent so it's got some work to do to live up to the promises of the HP HPE split we also we also show IBM red hat at 14% so there's some room for improvement there also and you can see IBM in the danger zone as we break that down and red hat much stronger but you know what it softened somewhat in the EGR survey since last year so we'd like to see better momentum from IBM and RedHat it's kind of unfortunate that kovat hit when it did his IBM was just kind of ramping up its RedHat go to market now just for comparison purposes for kicks we include Nutanix nifty annex is a much smaller company but it's one that's fairly mature and you can see at 52% its net scores much higher than the big whales now we've been reporting for months on high fliers like automation anywhere CrowdStrike octa rubric snowflake uipath these emerging companies have net scores you know north of 60% and even in the 70% range but of course they're growing from a much smaller base so you would expect that now let's put this into context with a two-dimensional view that we'd like to show now as you know in addition to net score that metric we like to use so-called market share market share is a measure of pervasiveness in the data set or essentially market share in the survey and it's a proxy for a real market share so what this chart here does it plots several companies with their net scores on the y-axis and market share on the x-axis and you can see that we combine Dell and VMware together and we plotted them in that red highlighted box just for comparison purposes so what does this tell you about the competitive landscape well first everyone would love to be AWS Microsoft - we didn't plot Microsoft because they're so bloody dominant they skew the chart somewhat but they would be way way out to the right on the x-axis because they have such a huge number of products and mentions in the data set so we left them out now you can see vmware and cisco are kind of right on top of each other which is sort of ironic as they're you know kind of increasingly overlapping with their offerings in the marketplace particularly nsx and you can see the other companies and for context we've added a few more competitors like theme and CommVault and you know they're in a pretty strong position as well as the combination of Dell and VMware so let's start there Steve Phil analyst Brad Reebok was quoted in the market watch publication is saying the following we have long believed Dell would ultimately buy in the approximately 19% our 12 and a half billion of VMware that it does not own in order to gain full control over VMware's substantial free cash flow which is about four billion dollars annually and we still expect this to be the ultimate outcome huh you know I don't know I'm not sure about this on the one hand you can see from the previous chart this would be a better outcome for Dell from a competitive standpoint what it did is it pulls Dell up and to the right yeah but perhaps not so much for VMware as it went down and to the left adèle would have to raise a bunch more cash to do this transaction and what take on even more debt you know maybe it could get Silverlake to finance the deal you know then essentially Dell would become the Oracle of infrastructure you know it certainly would make Dell even more strategic to CIOs would that be good for customers well on the one hand I guess it would bring better integration between Dell and VMware yeah but I wonder if that's the critical issue for customers yeah and nearly and I think it would stifle VMware's innovation engine and a little bit further and I wonder how Pat Yeltsin here would react I mean my guess is he would call it a day and what about Sanjay Putin who was the obvious next in line for the CEO job at VMware what he becomes the president of Dells software division and what about the rest of the team at VMware yes they're a Silicon Valley stalwart and that would slowly morph into austin-based Dell with the debt burden growing you know it's gonna mean more of VMware's cash would go to paying down the debt meaning less for R&D or even stock buybacks what you know I'm not a huge fan of and I'm not a huge fan of this scenario for sure the the technology park partner ecosystem would be ice cold on such a deal although you know you could argue there are already less than lukewarm but here I want to explore some other options so the next on the list is Dell could sell VMware to a private equity firm mmm or a strategic it could basically wipe out its debt and have some cash left over to sail into the sunset that would be a big pill for someone to swallow even though Michael Dell has 97 percent voting power I think there's fine print that says he has a responsibility to protect the interest of the minority shareholders so to get approval it would have to sell at a premium you know that could be as high as you know almost seventy billion dollars Microsoft has the cash but they don't need VMware and Amazon I guess could pull it off but that certainly is not likely even if Google who has the cash we're interested in buying VMware Google be the most likely candidate you know it would give Google Cloud instant access to the coveted enterprise but it's really hard to conceive I mean same for a PE company 65 to 70 billion you know they get their money out in 15 to 20 years so I I just I just don't see that as viable all right what's next how about this scenario of spinning off VMware that the Journal reported so in this transaction Dell shareholders would get a bunch of vmware stock now there may be some financial wizardry that tom sweet dell CFCF owned his band of financial geniuses could swing I can't even begin to speculate what that would be but but I've heard there's some magic that they could pull off to maybe pull some cash out of such a transaction and this would unlock the value of both Dell and VMware by removing the conglomerate and liquidity hangover for Dell and it were to definitely attract more sideline investors into VMware stock and Michael Dell would still own a boatload of VMware stock personally so there's an incentive there so this is interesting and certainly possible you know I think in a way it would be good for VMware customers VMware we get full autonomy and control over its destiny without Delvaux guarding its cash so it could freely innovate Dell would become probably less strategic for customers so I don't think that for Dell EMC buyers you know the technology ecosystem partners like HPE IBM Napa cetera would would would they would like it more but they were already kind of down the path of looking to optimize VMware alternatives so you know think about Cisco but you know I think for VMware customers okay I think for for daily MC customers not so much now what about the do-nothing scenario you know I think this is as possible as any outcome Dell keep chipping away at its debt using VMware as a strategic linchpin with customers sure they continue to pay the liquidity overhang tax and they'll frustrate some shareholders who we're going to remain on the sidelines but you know that's been the pattern anyway now what about delivering some of the VMware ownership so the more I think about it the more I like this scenario what if del sold 20% of its VMware stake and let's say raised ten twelve billion dollars in cash that it could use to really eat into its debt burden a move like this combined with its historical debt pay down could cut its death debt in half by say 2021 and get the company back to investment grade rating something that Tom sweet has aspired towards this one dropped hundreds of millions if not a billion dollars to the bottom line and it would allow Dell to continue to control VMware what I don't know I don't know if there are nuances to this scenario in other words does this dropping ownership from roughly eighty percent to about sixty percent trigger some loss of control or some reporting issue I'm sure it's buried somewhere in the public filings or acquisition Docs but this option to me makes some sense it doesn't really radically alter their relationships with customers or partners so it's kind of stable with VMware maintains its existing autonomy and even somewhat lessens Dale's perceived control over VMware in an attacks Dells debt burden yeah it's still a bit of a halfway house but I think it's a more attractive and as I said stable option in my view okay let's talk about what to look for next you know it looks like the stock market is coming to the reality that we are actually in a recession although it appears that Nasdaq is trying to ignore this or maybe the the markets a little bit off because they're afraid Joe Biden is gonna win the election he's not gonna be good for the for the economy we'll see we'll see what the economic shutdown means for tech companies in this earnings season etrs next survey is in the field and they're gonna have fresh data on the impact of kovat going into the dog days of summer here's what I think let me give you my preview and you'll see in a few weeks you know how accurate is I believe that tech spending is going to be soft broadly I think it's gonna especially be the case for legacy on-prem providers and expect their traditional businesses to to deteriorate somewhat I think there's gonna be bright spots in text protect for sure the ones we've reported on cloud yes absolutely automation you know I'm really looking closely at the battle between the two top our PA vendors automation anywhere in uipath I think there's a really interesting story brewing there and the names that we've been pounding like snowflake the security guys like CrowdStrike and octa and Z scalar I think they're gonna continue to do very well with this work from home pivot we also expect Microsoft to continue to show staying power but because of their size you know they're exposed to soft demand pockets but I think that continue to be very very strong and threatening to a lot of segments in the market now for Dell I think the data center businesses continue to be a tough one despite some of the new product cycles especially in storage but I think dal is gonna continue to benefit from the work from home pivot as I believe there's still some unmet demand and laptops we're gonna see that I believe show up in Dells income statement in the form of their their client revenue I'd love to know what you think you could tweet me at Devante or you can always email me at david dot Volante at Silicon angle com please comment on my LinkedIn post always appreciate I post weekly on silicon angle calm and on wiki bond calm so check out those properties and of course go to e TR dot plus for all the survey action as I say e TR is in the field with the current survey they got fresh Cova data so we're excited the report on that in the coming weeks remember these episodes are all available as podcast wherever you listen this is Dave Volante for the cube insights powered by ETR thanks for watching everyone we'll see you next time [Music]

from the cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cute conversation hi I'm Stu minimun and welcome to this special presentation we have a launch from Dell technologies updates to the BX rail family we're gonna do things a little bit different here we actually have a launch video from Janet champion of Dell technologies and the way we do things a lot of times is analysts get a little preview or when you're watching things you might have questions on it though rather than me just walking it are you watching herself I actually brought in a couple of Dell technologies expert two of our cube alumni happy to welcome back to the program Jonathan Segal he is the vice president of product marketing and Chad Dunn who's the vice president at price today of product management both of them with Dell technologies gentlemen thanks so much for joining us it was too great to be here all right and so what we're gonna do is we're gonna be rolling the video here I've got a button I'm gonna press Andrew will stop it here and then we'll kind of dig in a little bit go into some questions when we're all done we're actually holding a crowd chat where you will be able to ask your questions talk to the expert and everything and so a little bit different way to do a product announcement hope you enjoy it and with that it's VX rail taking API to the extremes is is the theme we'll see you know how what that means and everything but without any further ado it but let's look fanon take the video away hello and welcome my name is Shannon champion and I'm looking forward to taking you through what's new with the ex rail let's get started we have a lot to talk about our launch covers new announcements addressing use cases across the core edge and cloud and spans both new hardware platforms and options as well as the latest in software innovations so let's jump right in before we talk about our announcements let's talk about where customers are adopting the ex rail today first of all on behalf of the entire Dell technologies and BX Rail teams I want to thank each of our over 8,000 customers big and small in virtually every industry who have chosen the x rail to address a broad range of workloads deploying nearly a hundred thousand nodes to date thank you our promise to you is that we will add new functionality improve serviceability and support new use cases so that we deliver the most value to you whether in the core at the edge or for the cloud in the core the X rail from day one has been a catalyst to accelerate IT transformation many of our customers started here and many will continue to leverage VX rail to simply extend and enhance your VMware environment now we can support even more demanding applications such as in-memory databases like s AP HANA and more AI and ML applications with support for more and more powerful GPUs at the edge video surveillance which also uses GPUs by the way is an example of a popular use case leveraging the X rail alongside external storage and right now we all know the enhanced role that IT is playing and as it relates to VDI the X Rail has always been a great option for that in the cloud it's all about kubernetes and how dell technologies cloud platform which is VCF on the x rail can deliver consistent infrastructure for both traditional and cloud native applications and we're doing that together with VMware the X ray o is the only jointly engineered HCI system built with VMware for VMware environments designed to enhance the native VMware experience this joint engineering with VMware and investments in software innovation together deliver an optimized operational experience at reduced risk for our customers all right so Shannon talked a bit about you know the important role of IP of course right now with the global pandemic going on it's really you know calling in you know essential things you know putting you know platforms to the test so I'd really love to hear what both of you are hearing from customers also you know VDI of course you know in the early days it was HDI only does VDI now we know there are many solutions but remote work is you know putting that back front and center so John why don't we start with you is you know what you're absolutely so first of all us - thank you I want to do a shout out to our BX real customers around the world it's really been humbling inspiring and just amazing to see the impact of our bx real customers around the world and what they're having on on human progress here you know just for a few examples there are genomics companies that we have running the X rail that have a row about testing at scale we also have research universities out in the Netherlands on doing the antibody detection the US Navy has stood up a hosta floating Hospital >> of course care for those in need so look we are here to help that's been our message to our customers but it's amazing to see how much they're helping society during this so just just a pleasure there but as you mentioned just to hit on the the VDI comments so it's your points do you know HCI and vxr8 EDI that was initially use case years ago and it's been great to see how many of our existing VX real customers have been able to inhibit very quickly leveraging via trail to add and to help bring their remote workforce you know online and support them with your existing VX rail because V it really is flexible it is agile to be able to support those multiple workloads and in addition to that we've also rolled out some new VDI bundles to make it simpler for customers more cost-effective catered to everything from knowledge workers to multimedia workers you name it you know from 250 desktops up to a thousand but again back to your point BX rail ci is well beyond video it had crossed the chasm a couple years ago actually and you know where VDI now is less than a third of the typical workloads any of our customers out there it supports now a range of workloads as you heard from Shannon whether it's video surveillance whether it's general purpose only to mission-critical applications now with SAV ha so you know this is this has changed the game for sure but the range of workloads and the flexibility of yet rail is what's really helping our existing customers from this pandemic we've seen customers really embrace HCI for a number of workloads in their environments from the ones that we serve all knew and loved back in the the initial days of of HCI now the mission-critical things now to cloud native workloads as well and you know sort of the efficiencies that customers are able to get from HCI and specifically VX rail gives them that ability to pivot when these you know shall we say unexpected circumstances arise and I think if that's informing their their decisions and their opinions on what their IT strategies look like as they move forward they want that same level of agility and the ability to react quickly with our overall infrastructure excellent want to get into the announcements what I want my team actually your team gave me access to the CIO from the city of Amarillo so maybe they can dig up that footage talk about how fast they pivoted you know using VX rail to really spin up things fast so let's hear from the announcements first and then definitely want to share that that customer story a little bit later so let's get to the actual news that and it's gonna share okay now what's new I am pleased to announce a number of exciting updates and new platforms to further enable IT modernization across core edge and cloud I will cover each of these announcements in more detail demonstrating how only the X rail can offer the breadth of platform configurations automation orchestration and lifecycle management across a fully integrated hardware and software full stack with consistent simple side operations to address the broadest range of traditional and modern applications I'll start with hybrid cloud and recap what you may have seen in the Dell technologies cloud announcements just a few weeks ago related to VMware cloud foundation on the X rail then I'll cover two brand new VX rail hardware platforms and additional options and finally circle back to talk about the latest enhancements to our VX rail HCI system software capabilities for lifecycle management let's get started with our new cloud offerings based on the ex rail you xrail is the HCI foundation for dell technologies cloud platform bringing automation and financial models similar to public cloud to on-premises environments VMware recently introduced cloud foundation for dotto which is based on vSphere 7 as you likely know by now vSphere 7 was definitely an exciting and highly anticipated release in keeping with our synchronous release commitment we introduced the XR l 7 based on vSphere 7 in late April which was within 30 days of VMware's release two key areas that VMware focused on were embedding containers and kubernetes into vSphere unifying them with virtual machines and the second is improving the work experience for vSphere administrators with vSphere lifecycle manager or VL CM I'll address the second point a bit in terms of how the X rail fits in in a moment for V cf4 with tansu based on vSphere 7 customers now have access to a hybrid cloud platform that supports native kubernetes workloads and management as well as your traditional vm based workloads and this is now available with VCF 4 on the ex rel 7 the X rails tight integration with VMware cloud foundation delivers a simple and direct path not only to the hybrid cloud but also to deliver kubernetes a cloud scale with one complete automated platform the second cloud announcement is also exciting recent VCF for networking advancements have made it easier than ever to get started with hybrid cloud because we're now able to offer a more accessible consolidated architecture and with that Dell technologies cloud platform can now be deployed with a four node configuration lowering the cost of an entry-level hybrid cloud this enables customers to start smaller and grow their cloud deployment over time VCF on the x rail can now be deployed in two different ways for small environments customers can utilize a consolidated architecture which starts with just four nodes since the management and workload domains share resources in this architecture it's ideal for getting started with an entry-level cloud to run general-purpose virtualized workloads with a smaller entry point both in terms of required infrastructure footprint as well as cost but still with a consistent cloud operating model for larger environments we're dedicated resources and role based access control to separate different sets of workloads is usually preferred you can choose to deploy a standard architecture which starts at 8 nodes for independent management and workload domains a standard implementation is ideal for customers running applications that require dedicated workload domains that includes horizon VDI and vSphere with kubernetes all right John there's definitely been a lot of interest in our community around everything that VMware's doing with vSphere 7 understand if you wanted to use the kubernetes piece you know it's it's VCF as that so we you know we've seen the announcements delt partnering there helped us connect that story between you know really the the VMware strategy and how they've talked about cloud and how you know where does the X rail fit in that overall Delta cloud story absolutely so so first of all is through the x-ray of course is integral to the Delta cloud strategy you know it's been VCF on bx r l equals the delta cloud platform and this is our flagship on-prem cloud offering that we've been able to enable operational consistency across any cloud right whether it's on prem in the edge or in a public cloud and we've seen the delta cloud platform embraced by customers for a couple key reasons one is it offers the fastest hybrid cloud deployment in the market and this is really you know thanks to a new subscription on offer that we're now offering out there we're at less than 14 days it can be set up and running and really the deltek cloud does bring a lot of flexibility in terms of consumption models overall comes to the extra secondly I would say is fast and easy upgrades I mean this is this is really this is what VX real brings to the table for all our clothes if you will and it's especially critical in the cloud so the full automation of lifecycle management across the hardware and software stack boss the VMware software stack and in the Dell software however we're supporting that together this enables essentially the third thing which is customers can just relax right they can be rest assured that their infrastructure will be continuously validated and always be in a continuously validated state and this this is the kind of thing that you know those three value propositions together really fit well with with any on print cloud now you take what Shannon just mentioned and the fact that now you can build and run modern applications on the same the x-ray link structure alongside traditional applications this is a game changer yeah it I love you know I remember in the early days that about CI how does that fit in with cloud discussion and align I've used the last couple years this you know modernize the platform then you can modernize the application though as companies are doing their full modernization this plays into what you're talking about all right let's get you know can't let ran and continue get some more before we dig into some more analysis that's good let's talk about new hardware platforms and updates that result in literally thousands of potential new configuration options covering a wide breadth of modern and traditional application needs across a range of the actual use cases first up I am incredibly excited to announce a brand new delhi MCB x rail series the DS series this is a ruggedized durable platform that delivers the full power of the x rail for workloads at the edge in challenging environments or for space constrained areas the X ray LD series offers the same compelling benefits as the rest of the BX rail portfolio with simplicity agility and lifecycle management but in a lightweight short depth at only 20 inches it's a durable form factor that's extremely temperature resilient shock resistant and easily portable it even meets mil spec standards that means you have the full power of lifecycle automation with VX rail HCI system software and 24 by 7 single point of support enabling you to rapidly react to business needs no matter the location or how harsh the conditions so whether you're deploying a data center at a mobile command base running real-time GPS mapping on-the-go or implementing video surveillance in remote areas you can ensure availability integrity and confidence for every workload with the new VX Rail ruggedized D series had would love for you to bring us in a little bit you know that what customer requirement bringing bringing this to market I I remember seeing you know Dell servers ruggedized of course edge you know really important growth to build on what John was talking about clouds so yeah Chad bring us inside what was driving this piece of the offering sure Stu yeah you know having the the hardware platforms that can go out into some of these remote locations is really important and that's being driven by the fact that customers are looking for compute performance and storage out at some of these edges or some of the more exotic locations you know whether that's manufacturing plants oil rigs submarine ships military applications in places that we've never heard of but it's also been extending that operational simplicity of the the sort of way that you're managing your data center that has VX rails you're managing your edges the same way using the same set of tools so you don't need to learn anything else so operational simplicity is is absolutely key here but in those locations you can take a product that's designed for a data center where you're definitely controlling power cooling space and take it to some of these places where you get sand blowing or sub-zero temperatures so we built this D series that was able to go to those extreme locations with extreme heat extreme cold extreme altitude but still offer that operational simplicity if you look at the the resistance that it has to heat it can go from around operates at a 45 degrees Celsius or 113 degrees Fahrenheit range but it can do an excursion up to 55 °c or 131 degrees Fahrenheit for up to eight hours it's also resisted the heats and dust vibration it's very lightweight short depth in fact it's only 20 inches deep this is a smallest form factor obviously that we have in the BX rail family and it's also built to to be able to withstand sudden shocks it's certified it was stand 40 G's of shock and operation of the 15,000 feet of elevation it's pretty high and you know this is this is sort of like where were skydivers go to when they weren't the real real thrill of skydiving where you actually the oxygen to to be a put that out to their milspec certified so mil-std 810g which i keep right beside my bed and read every night and it comes with a VX rail stick hardening package is packaging scripts so that you can auto lock down the rail environment and we've got a few other certifications that are on the roadmap now for for naval chakra quirements EMI and radiation immunity of all that yeah you know it's funny I remember when weights the I first launched it was like oh well everything's going to white boxes and it's going to be you know massive you know no differentiation between everything out there if you look at what you're offering if you look at how public clouds build their things what I call it a few years poor is there's a pure optimization so you need scale you need similarities but you know you need to fit some you know very specific requirements lots of places so interesting stuff yeah certifications you know always keep your teams busy alright let's get back to Shannon we are also introducing three other hardware based editions first a new VX rail eseries model based on were the first time AMD epic processors these single socket 1u nodes offered dual socket performance with CPU options that scale from 8 to 64 cores up to a terabyte of memory and multiple storage options making it an ideal platform for desktop VDI analytics and computer-aided design next the addition of the latest NVIDIA Quadro RT X GPUs brings the most significant advancement in computer graphics in over a decade to professional workflows designers and artists across industries can now expand the boundary of what's possible working with the largest and most complex graphics rendering deep learning and visual computing workloads and Intel obtain DC persistent memory is here and it offers high performance and significantly increase memory capacity with data persistence at an affordable price persistence is a critical feature that maintains data integrity even when power is lost enabling quicker recovery and less downtime with support for Intel obtain DC persistent memory customers can expand in memory intensive workloads and use cases like sa P Hana alright let's finally dig into our HCI system software which is the core differentiation for the xrail regardless of your workload or platform choice our joint engineering with VMware and investments in the x-ray HCI system software innovation together deliver an optimized operational experience at reduced risk for our customers under the covers the xrail offers best-in-class Hardware married with VMware HCI software either vcn or VCF but what makes us different stems from our investments to integrate the two Dell technologies has a dedicated VX rail team of about 400 people to build market sell and support a fully integrated hyper-converged system that team has also developed our unique the X rail HDI system software which is a suite of integrated software elements that extend VMware native capabilities to deliver a seamless automated operational experience that customers cannot find elsewhere the key components of the x rail HDI system software are shown around the arc here that include the X rail manager full stack lifecycle management ecosystem connectors and support I don't have time to get into all the details of these elements today but if you're interested in learning more I encourage you to meet our experts and I will tell you how to do that in a moment I touched on VLC M being a key feature to vSphere seven earlier and I'd like to take the opportunity to expand on that a bit in the context of the xrail lifecycle management the LCM adds valuable automation to the execution of updates for customers but it doesn't eliminate the manual work still needed to define and package the updates and validate all of the components prior to applying them with the X ray all customers have all of these areas addressed automatically on their behalf freeing them to put their time into other important functions for their business customers tell us that lifecycle management continues to be a major source of the maintenance effort they put into their infrastructure and then it tends to lead to overburden IT staff that it can cause disruptions to the business if not managed effectively and that it isn't the most efficient economically Automation of lifecycle management in VX Rail results in the utmost simplicity from a customer experience perspective and offers operational freedom from maintaining infrastructure but as shown here our customers not only realize greater IT team efficiencies they have also reduced downtime with fewer unplanned outages and reduced overall cost of operations with the xrail HCI system software intelligent lifecycle management upgrades of the fully integrated hardware and software stack are automated keeping clusters in continuously validated States while minimizing risks and operational costs how do we ensure continuously validated States Furby xrail the x-ray labs execute an extensive automated repeatable process on every firmware and software upgrade and patch to ensure clusters are in continuously validated states of the customer's choosing across their VX rail environment the VX rail labs are constantly testing analyzing optimising and sequencing all of the components in the upgrade to execute in a single package for the full stack all the while the x rail is backed by Delhi MCS world-class services and support with a single point of contact for both hardware and software IT productivity skyrockets with single-click non-disruptive upgrades of the fully integrated hardware and software stack without the need to do extensive research and testing taking you to the next VX rail version of your choice while always in a continuously validated state you can also confidently execute automated VX rail upgrades no matter what hardware generation or node types are in the cluster they don't have to all be the same and upgrades with VX rail are faster and more efficient with leap frogging simply choose any VX rail version you desire and be assured you will get there in a validated state while seamlessly bypassing any other release in between only the ex rail can do that all right so Chad you know the the lifecycle management piece that Jana was just talking about is you know not the sexiest it's often underappreciated you know there's not only the years of experience but the continuous work you're doing you know reminds me back you know the early V sand deployments versus VX rail jointly develop you know jointly tested between Dell and VMware so you know bring us inside why you know 2020 lifecycle management still you know a very important piece especially in the VL family yeah let's do I think it's sexy but I'm pretty big nerd yes even more the larger the deployments come when you start to look at data centers full of VX rails and all the different hardware software firmware combinations that could exist out there it's really the value that you get out of that VX r l HTI system software that Shannon was talking about and how its optimized around the VMware use case very tightly integrated with each VMware component of course and the intelligence of being able to do all the firmware all of the drivers all of the software altogether tremendous value to our customers but to deliver that we really need to make a fairly large investment so she Anna mentioned we've run about twenty five thousand hours of testing across each major release four patches Express patches that's about seven thousand hours for each of those so obviously there's a lot of parallelism and and we're always developing new test scenarios for each release that we need to build in as we as we introduce new functionality one of the key things that were able to do as Shannon mentioned is to be able to leapfrog releases and get you to that next validated state we've got about 100 engineers just working on creating and executing those test cases on a continuous basis and obviously a huge amount of automation and then when we talk about that investment to execute those tests that's well north of sixty million dollars of investment in our lab in fact we've got just over two thousand VH rail units in our testbed across the u.s. Shanghai China and corn island so a massive amount of testing of each of those those components to make sure that they operate together in a validated state yeah well you know absolutely it's super important not only for the day one but the day two deployments but I think this actually be a great place for us to bring in that customer that Dell gave me access to so we've got the CIO of Amarillo Texas he was an existing VX rail customer and he's going to explain what happened as to how he needed to react really fast to support the work from home initiative as well as you know we get to hear in his words the value of what lifecycle management means though Andrew if we could queue up that that customer segment please it was it's been massive and it's been interesting to see the IT team absorb it you know as we mature and they I think they embrace the ability to be innovative and to work with our departments but this instance really justified why I was driving progress so so fervently why it was so urgent today three years ago we the answer would have been no there would have been we wouldn't have been in a place where we could adapt with it with the x-ray all in place you know in a week we spun up hundreds of instant phones we spawned us a seventy five person call center in a day and a half for our public health we will allow multiple applications for Public Health so they could do remote clinics it's given us the flexibility to be able to to roll out new solutions very quickly and be very adaptive and it's not only been apparent to my team but it's really made an impact on the business and now what I'm seeing is those those are my customers that were a little lagging or a little conservative or understanding the impact of modernizing the way they do business because it makes them adaptable as well all right so rich you talked to a bunch about the the efficiencies that they tie put place how about that that overall just managed you know you talked about how fast you spun up these new VDI instances you need to be able to do things much simpler so you know how does the overall lifecycle management fit into this discussion it makes it so much easier and you know in the in the old environment one it took a lot of man-hours to make change it was it was very disruptive when we did make change this it overburdened I guess that's the word I'm looking for it really over overburdened our staff it cost disruption to business it was it cost-efficient and then you simple things like you know I've worked for multi billion-dollar companies where we had massive QA environments that replicated production simply can't afford that at local government you know having the sort of environment lets me do a scaled-down QA environment and still get the benefit of rolling out non disruptive change as I said earlier it's allow us to take all of those cycles that we were spending on lifecycle management because it's greatly simplified and move those resources and rescale them in in other areas where we can actually have more impact on the business it's hard to be innovated when a hundred percent of your cycles are just keeping the ship afloat all right well you know nothing better than hearing straight from the end-user you know public sector reacting very fast to the Cova 19 and you know you heard him he said if this had hit his before he had run this project he would not have been able to respond so I think everybody out there understands if I didn't actually have access to the latest technology you know it would be much harder all right I'm looking forward to doing the crowd chat and everybody else digging with questions and get follow-up but a little bit more I believe one more announcement he came and got for us though let's roll the final video clip in our latest software release the x-ray of 4.7 dot 510 we continue to add new automation and self-service features new functionality enables you to schedule and run upgrade health checks in advance of upgrades to ensure clusters are in a ready state for the next upgrade or patch this is extremely valuable for customers that have stringent upgrade windows as they can be assured the clusters will seamlessly upgrade within that window of course running health checks on a regular basis also helps ensure that your clusters are always ready for unscheduled patches and security updates we are also offering more flexibility and getting all nodes or clusters to a common release level with the ability to reimage nodes or clusters to a specific the xrail version or down Rev one or more more nodes that may be shipped at a higher Rev than the existing cluster this enables you to easily choose your validated state when adding new nodes or repurposing nodes in cluster to sum up all of our announcements whether you are accelerating data center modernization extending HCI to harsh edge environments deploying an on-premises Dell technologies cloud platform to create a developer ready kubernetes infrastructure BX Rail is there delivering a turnkey experience that enables you to continuously innovate realize operational freedom and predictably evolve the x rail provides an extensive breadth of platform configurations automation and lifecycle management across the integrated hardware and software full stack and consistent hybrid cloud operations to address the broadest range of traditional and modern applications across core edge and cloud I now invite you to engage with us first the virtual passport program is an opportunity to have some fun while learning about the ex rails new features and functionality and score some sweet digital swag while you're at it it delivered via an automated via an augmented reality app all you need is your device so go to the x-ray is slash passport to get started and secondly if you have any questions about anything I talked about or want a deeper conversation we encourage you to join one of our exclusive VX rail meet the experts sessions available for a limited time first-come first-served just go to the x-ray dot is slash expert session to learn more you all right well obviously with everyone being remote there's different ways we're looking to engage so we've got the crowd chat right after this but John gives a little bit more is that how Del's making sure to stay in close contact with customers and what you've got firfer options for them yeah absolutely so as Shannon said so in lieu of not having Dell tech world this year in person where we could have those great in-person interactions and answer questions whether it's in the booth or you know in in meeting rooms you know we are going to have these meet the experts sessions over the next couple of weeks and look we're gonna put our best and brightest from our technical community and make them accessible to to everyone out there so again definitely encourage you we're trying new things here in this virtual environment to ensure that we could still stay in touch answer questions be responsive and really looking forward to you know having these conversations over the next couple weeks all right well John and Chad thank you so much we definitely look forward to the conversation here in int in you'd if you're here live definitely go down below do it if you're watching this on demand you can see the full transcript of it at crowd chat /vx rocks sorry V xrail rocks for myself Shannon on the video John and Chad Andrew man in the booth there thank you so much for watching and go ahead and join the crowd chat

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation LeBron's special conversation I'm John Tory here in the cube I'm not in the studio I'm at home we're sheltering in place the studio quarantine crew is there we've got a great guest here to break down and Alice in the tech industries for vallah who's this principle of zk research Aziz great to check in with you for our check-in last time we chatted you broke down entire industry a lot to talk about now we have the Cisco earnings just came out and a lot of other great things are happening thanks for joining me well what's your take on what's going on yeah I think so thanks John it's uh it's been heard about tumultuous last few months I think one of the takeaways I had from Cisco's earnings actually was that it's not as bad as you think I know if you read a lot of what's going on the media we get everything from doomsday and the world's ending or whatever but I think what Cisco's earnings showed and in Cisco I know they have a lot of enemies and a lot of competitors out there but they're really still a bellwether for the industry and so everyone should rejoice in the fact that they actually had a pretty good quarter I think what was was telling about that was security was up the services business was up the margins were good and what that shows me is that there's still room for innovation customers relax are still buying things and they're willing to pay for things that actually help drive their business forward and so Cisco's put a lot of energy into their services group to make sure that customers are able to adapt their technology and change their business right and so from an overall market perspective Cisco is you know they're the quarters are the court has shifted from almost everybody else's and so they're generally a leading indicator of where things are going so I think the fact that they showed some strength they guided up from where the street thought I think that's a good thing for the entire industry and I think I'm not saying we're out of this yet but I think businesses are starting to spend money where they need to in order to put themselves in a position to come on strong after well once we start going back to work whoever knows what that'll be I think the other sort of interesting pivot here is that I think the overall role the network has changed with income right we've covered networking technologies a long time it gets a little bit of interest sometimes from sea level certainly not as much as it should from CEOs and CIOs a lot of people think of it as the plumbing and the pipes it's hard to understand it's a very complicated technology sometimes but when you look at what's happened with digital transformation initiatives and now covent we've got more people at home or adopting cloud services we use video for connecting more things with IOT initiatives so the overall value of the network is increased that I think that was also reflected in Cisco's numbers I think this transition had started when you look at a lot of the building blocks and digital transformation IOT cloud mobility things like that they're all Network centric in nature and so for the first time in history I think business leaders actually need to look at their network strategies because if that's without a sound network strategy as we sort of come out of this and the companies that have a good one will be able to really step on the gas and do what they want with their business the ones that don't I think I'd a really struggle to survive because I'm not gonna be able to do a lot of these advanced things yeah great point one of the things Brazil the new cisco has a new leadership new c has been in place for a while positioning they're going after and you know with the cloven crisis it really puts more pressure knock the move of the network because it's a core staple of an organization yet the transformation journey is going to be accelerated this gives Cisco it's a lucky strike for Cisco because it'll move packets around and the multi cloud conversation comes in and the enablement of application development all being five to the network is what cisco has been preparing on and this has kind of been a nuance point then that everyone understands but coming out of Cova to have a growth strategy if you're not programming up and down the stack with DevOps and Nets a cops or whatever you want to call it people working at home a new perimeter is now emerged that's everything everything is the premise is this a tailwind for Cisco your thoughts on that your face oh yeah the big time tailwind francisco i think what's happened gentlemen you look at network evolution over the last five years we can do much more with our network that's coming to cost and that cost us complexity so trying to tie all these things together SP Winn Sassie datacenter Sdn right we've got Wi-Fi six coming we've got 5g coming so we've got all these great things that we're gonna let our networks be faster than ever before and run applications we can never run before right you look at some of the demos on 5g we're able to wear untethered Wi-Fi our virtual reality headsets complete creating completely new shopping experiences educational experiences but you need a lot of bandwidth that but not only you need bandwidth I think the one thing that Kovac has taught us is do you have any weakness in the network anywhere right from the user's hand all the way to the cloud that weak point at the time and so now you have to start thinking of your network not in pieces of having a campus network Wi-Fi network data center network and that a single network right and so cisco is really one of the few companies maybe the only company that can actually deliver that end and network that starts in the company extends to people's homes goes out to the cloud and with what they've done masterfully under Chuck Robbins is they've been able to pile those things together to create a much simpler way of operating this complicated network so you look at what they're doing you know with a CI and intent based networking what that is is you can think of it almost as a software overlay that masks the complexity of the network that's underneath it yeah talking about cisco over the past decade and a half and i'm with the stack guys you gotta move up the stack this has been this is now their opportunity and with multi cloud on the horizon or here this is going to give cisco a path but I got to ask you what is your take and advice to Cisco when you're out there talking to them you're talking to of the customers all the time and practitioners you're the analyst what do they need to do better because you can't just wish a multi cloud upon the marketplace it's coming but it's not clearly not the use case yet so that's a time lag between a CI intent based networking to true multi-cloud what if Cisco do in the meantime yeah well I think what's this go has to do is is think about what they're doing with a CI and multi cloud and actually help their customers implement it in in pieces and what the description I'd use is is the paths this goes on and the path customers are on actually in this world of you think if the end state is true hybrid multi-cloud right we have to get there in ship shots and not moon shots and what I mean by that is if you were to say to a customer this is your end state right the path to get there is so donkey and it's like a moon shot that it paralyzes the customer if you break this down into a set of chip shots right that gets much easier so so put the infrastructure in place to be able to just have the visibility across applause then maybe automate movement from hi private the public cloud right then automate some of the processes that give you the most headaches then move to a bigger Ottoman Ottoman automation framework right so yeah areas like security network configuration right things like that those are those are very difficult for customers to do manually those are the things they should be automating today so what they want to do is almost take through their intent-based network to almost as a lighthouse the road to a visionary state and then help customers get there in pieces because if they try and rush them along too fast I think they'll lose the customer because the complexity is too high the other area they should really be focused on is continuing to mature the services business I think that's something under Chuck Robbins that's night and day different than what it was the services business - Cisco prior to Chuck was a lot of break fix you know their TAC is well renowned as being a great pack but now they've gotten more of the pro services they've gotten more into adoption services and I think the more subscription they sell what Cisco needs to really understand is that customers tend not to renew things they don't use right so making sure that the services group helps customers and use the things that they're paying for and that'll pay dividends for them multiple dividends for them down the road I want to get the silken one on that opportunity to upsell and do a refresh because what refreshes are not gonna be on the docket early on unless discuss business value so let's hold that for a second John Chambers has been on the cube recently in his new role as a coach and investor and he says to us on the cube you know transitions versus transformation Cisco and the big companies are expected to win the transitions but now with coming out of this there's real transformation so you got to look at things like collaboration hey guys get better this is not just win the enterprise with a better web max zoom is they can ask Bob teams is out there so you know Cisco's that's a huge collaboration piece and a bunch of other business so where's their transition wins and where's their transformational opportunity in Europe in well I think the entire company is kind of going through transformations right even on the network side so it's right it's like you know the industry has been calling Francisco to get commoditized for years right and if you look the product gross margins are actually the strongest they've been in a decade right so I remember when I fell below 60% they everybody thought the world was falling this quarter I think was a little over 65 on the product side and so my belief is nothing is really a commodity if you can drive innovation that's what's this has been doing so from a transition standpoint I think they've done a lot of that they've transitioned the company to software and services they've transitioned the company more terrain model they've actually decoupled software from the hardware so customers can buy differently and you brought up the fact that we may not have a hardware refresh but that's okay as long as they keep the software a newa cycles forth where the transformations has to come is completely change the dynamics of how something works and so with intent-based networking you think of the old way that network engineers to work like the way I used to work when I was an engineer a lot of hunting pecking and at a CLI doing a lot of cutting and pasting and using homegrown tools that doesn't scale anymore my research shows that on average takes companies about four months the implemented change network-wide far too slow for digital company right so Francisco's done is they've accelerated that by letting customers automate more things and so Francisco the transformation comes in allowing customers to new new things I think you read in the collaboration side there's more work to do nobody's got a bigger collaboration portfolio than Cisco they got endpoints they got rooms just right they've got software they were a cloud on Prem but they got to take that and tie it together and I think the other area that's is gonna need improving is on they've they've got a lot of management tools that that look at different things they have at the ACI manager and a whole bunch of different security consoles in fact they funded them sometimes and said that the market leader in single panes of glass because they have more than anybody right I think eventually they got to be able to tie that information together and help customers understand what it means from a cross domain perspective because they still build a product's wireless campus data center but as I mentioned before we just have one network and so Cisco can aggregate this data up apply machine learning to it and help customers what that means they see insight across the entire network that would really be powerful because they they've got the footprint now they just have to be able to deliver the machine learning based insights some customers understand what that data means and they have a unique opportunity in the short term no one's going to be kidding Cisco out anytime soon there's a safety rating and using the big companies I think what what Cisco is able to bring is a there's a level of financial stability that other companies may not have and so they can weather the storm for a long time so you know I it's easy to say going to Cisco is the safe bet it has been for a long time but but i but I think it's also the smart bet I think they're they're able to continue to invest in things maybe smaller companies more people do yeah my question on Cisco a big fan of their strategy have been vocal about that for a while my question on Cisco want to be critical is to say how fast can you get that development going show the software value in market show customers a growth trajectory that they can execute on it can advantage the network policy intelligence if they could do that they're gonna be in good shape you agree yeah I think one of the challenges though is the transformation of their customer base do and that's where the work Suzy we've been doing in the dev that teams so important like if if they were to shift their whole strategy over at the developer folks talk word today I think that would largely put them in a position or trouble because the engineers that work with the stuff and the resellers that work with the stuff aren't they don't really have the skill sets they advantage that right so last year Suzy we she really talked a lot about the growth a definite this year they came out with in Barcelona this year they they came up with a bunch of certifications for dev net now there they were actually coming out with a number of a partner certifications as well so the resellers can get certified but I think it's important that they continue to push their engineer base into gaining these new skills I'll give you an interesting data point for my research and that's you know that only about a quarter of networking engineers has ever made an API call right and so you look at all Cisco's new gear it's all API driven and so if you want to do something as simple as say get all the IP addresses in your network you can just use an API call for that right the other way to do it is you do a show command and the CLI your screen scrape and you take a visual basic trip that you parse it you know and you get it that way right so the API map using those is a lot easier and so I think Cisco's got a good strategy with Deb net they've grown that face a lot it's still relatively small you know it's under a million people and you think of the overall size the Cisco customer user base point that's where they gonna put some effort right more and more out driving adoption to them now well I think you're smarter than I think you're researching them they must be listening to you because they haven't really tried to jam that down their throats they've been very humble about it and I think a million is pretty damn good number I think Cisco again to your point they're bringing people into the water the low end first before you you go to the deep end so swim with the bubble if you will with definite what they did was they assumed the engineer had no knowledge of software because I think at first when they put the lot of the programs a place they assumed people would have some knowledge of how to code right and and I also think the industry did them a bit of a disservice we used her there was a lot of stuff written in the media how every network engineer needs to become a software developer well they don't have to summer get make them software developers but they at least have to come software power ease right so do your job through software but you don't have to be a developer and that's where definite really when it really matured is that diverge down to past developer engineer who's your saw common software skills and then you break down a specialist after that and so they've they've actually helped with the maturity of that they've changed their certification programs for reflect that and I think Devin that really is a big be and if they can transition that engineer base then it helps the adoption of the new on these I want to get your final thoughts on this segment on multi-cloud obviously it would be a really great win for it creates of interoperability strictly with the network intelligence cisco could bring to the table and others you got startups out there like aviatrix and others and vmware with nsx trying to get that for the security fabric a lot of action going on with multi cloud and networking your thoughts what does your research tell you what's gonna transpire how do you see that market playing out in my research shows that little R ad percent of companies prior to Co vid had multi-cloud on the roadmap and I'm assuming that's that's gone up I haven't actually done a survey since then um one of the I think it's funny koban exposed a lot of things from a lot of vendors right and I think one of the things that is is shown cracks in the cloud yeah you look at some of the the data and how many outages Microsoft had Google had some strains AWS has held up pretty well under the strain of of a lot of the higher utilization when coated but they've been building a lot of capacity into theirs as well so I think from a customer perspective it makes sense you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket some cloud providers are stronger in some regions they each have different their own different cloud platforms other private cloud platforms and the problem is is if you decide if you decide to go multi-cloud you can't use the cloud providers tools right so if I use an AWS load balancer that works great in AWS but it's not gonna help me with Azure or GCE similarly if I use GCP tools I can't extend that out the azure so something needs to connect those and be able to five security and policy and that's where multi cloud comes from and you're right there's some good startups there I think um the difference with Cisco this time versus the Sdn world was when as the ends came about I think Cisco didn't want that to happen and I think they actually actively worked against us the end and I've talked to chuck Robbins about that he said you'll never ever see Cisco do that again if something is good for the customers they want to lead that transition and so Cisco's been very active in multi focking and given they've got the install base already I do think they will help bring this long but there are some good stir yeah it's interesting Sdn really wasn't ready for primetime even when VMware bought in this era hey when it was still there I didn't have a lot of revenue it had a future VMware claims that's the saves and NSX was saved by a Sdn some people say was completely rewritten final thoughts on outlook and you see coming out of Ovid obviously it's been well reported we've been reporting VPNs have been under provision that was a blind spot bought a blind spots and disruption that wasn't forecasted in the classic sense there was no there was no you know hurricane there was no flood it was a covin invisible disruption yeah and there's no impact right like even with when you think of what happened with the the floods in New York and 9/11 people knew that they'd eventually go back and so business continuity and disaster recovery was a temporary thing and I can I set up a data center to work for a couple months so I can go back to New York that's not the case with koban where we're trying to manage for an undefined endpoint which is extremely difficult for an IT perspective I do think that Kogan again has highlighted the value of the network I think we'll see a lot of transition from VPN to sd when I think that's that's certainly good I think the rise in video will also cause a Wi-Fi upgrade cycle we'll get back to the office and I think you'll see a lot of focus on programmability and agility because I don't believe we're gonna see everybody return to the office was like one big bang John I think we're more likely to see is the future work to be almost like when you and I were in college we do a bunch of stuff at home we go to the campus when we have classes and when we want to meet people similarly we'll go to work when we have meetings and then in between meetings we'll go find an open place to work but in general we'll do a lot of work a lot more work from home in fact my research shows 93 percent of the business leaders I interviewed said they expect to see at least a 30 percent increase in the work from home post Kovan right so we're gonna have a lot more people doing that but it's not gonna be everyone working for home everybody work in the office it's gonna be a hybrid of the two people are gonna come and go and that bribes the need for agility and today's networks really not that agile and so I need I want to go back to college if we do thirsty happy hours do I mean have the whole week or the stupid stuff it's the final point you mentioned SP when I was talking with Dave Volante SP Minutemen just last week and I said you know this SD win today is not your grandfather's sdn meaning SP where it's changed a lot it's basically the internet now so what was the modern update definition of SD grin I mean it used to be you connect the wide area network you can have some campus you'd do some networking what is it now what's the same name but it's yeah what is it your journey the technology if you look at the adoption of anything right the first wave of stuff is to make the new stuff look like the old stuff so we put VoIP in we made it look a lot like TDM when we had cloud we lifted and shift it and how did we didn't really enjoy wraps and then we eventually get smart and think what can I do with the new thing that I can't do the old thing and so a lot of early SD win deployments were simply just replacements for MPLS and they were put in to save a bit of money but now companies are getting smarter they're thinking about what can I do with my SD win that I couldn't do before so there's a lot more tighter integration with security I think as companies but SD win in and and think about what the win is today John it used to be corporate offices and data centers I think it's everybody's house right and so being able to extend your win at the single people out to planes trains and automobiles you remember that movie but those are all getting connected as well people's back acts fan kiosk those are all becoming way endpoints right so that's where you need to embed more security in the network and so I think that's a transition we've seen into that see you and I think the technology has matured to the point where it's getting easier to deploy faster to flow and you're right we can use the internet for transport in some cases some will still keep there still be a lot of MPLS out there but I do think we wind up in this hybrid world but clearly then the time has never been better for for SD win I will see a rule of curve for that because it's the only way to extend the win the people's homes the things the cars and really anything that's connected you know that's such a great point and I think this is a real new once in the industry it's a whole nother rebirth of the category because the aperture is brighter you got policy you've got reliability and get security built in this is key key Johnny H salt key yeah yeah whole concept the AI ops becomes real because we're collecting data and we're able to use AI to automate operations so Z's we call it s T win 2.0 that's what you got to do we got making an acronym out of this come on we can't just saw s T when it is SD win - righto because it's the next it's that it's it's the second wave of it we're actually thinking about how to transform our companies so the the John Chambers quote of transition for transversus transformation is apropos because the like I said a lot of the waves that that Cisco went through early on was we transition the market and then we transform right and so SD win so far has been transitional moving away from the old thing but now in strength and defense formed where our entire network operates these gradients that always a pleasure to talk to you get the straight scoop for the signal right there from all the noise in the industry now more than ever people are gonna be focused on critical project so thanks for your insight as DK now can research great stuff and we'll keep keep following you in great guest thank you come on thanks John first burger okay cute conversation here remote we're doing our part either at home and studio quarantine in this is the cube virtual virtualization has come to the cube will do will do whatever it takes to get the content out there Z's thanks so much for coming I appreciate thanks for watching on John Currier [Music]

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation run welcome to this cube conversation I'm John Fourier with the cube host the cube here in our Palo Alto office for remote interviews during this time of covin 19 we're here with the quarantine crew here in our studio we got a great guest here from Google we'll Grannis managing director head of the office of the CTO with Google cloud thanks for coming on we'll appreciate you you spend some time with me Oh John's great to be with you and as you said in these times more important than ever to stay connected yeah and I'm really glad you came on because a couple things one congratulations to Google cloud for the success you guys had so a lot of big wins under your belt both on the momentum side on the business side but also on the technical side meat is available now for folks anthos is doing very very well partner ecosystem is developing got some nice used cases in vertical marker so I want to get in and unpack with you but really the bigger story here is that the world has seen the future before was ready for it and that is the at scale challenge that the Cova 19 has shown everyone we're seeing you know the future has been pulled forward we're living in a virtualized environment it's funny to say that virtualization has a server virtualization is a tech term but that enabled a lot of things we're living in a virtualized world now because we have to but this is gonna set in motion a series of new realities that you guys have been experiencing and supporting for many many years but now as a provider of Google cloud you guys have to operate at scale you have and now the whole world realizes that scale is a big deal and so you guys have had some successes I want to get your thoughts on the this at scale problem that the world now realizes I mean everyone's at home that's a disruption that was unfortunate whether it's under provisioning VPNs NIT to a surface area for security to just work and play and activities are now confined so people aren't convening anymore and it's a huge issue what's your take on all this well I mean to your point just now the fact that we can have this conversation we can have it blue idli from our respective remote locations just goes to show you the power of information technology that underlies so many of the things that we say and for Google Cloud this is not a new thing and for Google this is not a new thing for Google cloud we add a mission of trying to help companies accelerate their transformation and enable them in these new digital environments and so many companies that we've been working with they've already been on the path to operating an environments that are digital that are fluid and you think about the cloud that's one of the great benefits loud is that scalability income with the business demand and it also helps the scale situation without having to you know do the typical what you need to find the procurement people we need to find server vendors we need to get the storage lined up it really allows a much more fluid response to unexpected and unfortunate situations whether that's customer demand or you know in this case the global endemic yeah one of the things I want to get in with you I want to get you have explained your job is there because I see Google's got a new CEO now for over a year Tom's Korean came from Oracle knows the enterprise up and down you had Diane Greene before that again another enterprise leader Google Cloud has essentially rebuilt itself from the original Google cloud to be very enterprise centric you guys have great momentum and and this is a world where cloud native is going to be required I mean everyone now sees it the the tide has been pulled out there everything's exposed all the gaps in business from a tech standpoint it's kind of exposed and so the smart managers and companies are looking at things and saying double down on that let's kill that we don't want to pay that supplier they're not core to our business this is going to be a very rapid acceleration of what I call a vetting of the new the new set of players that are going to emerge because the folks who don't adapt to this new cloud native reality whether it's app workloads for banking to whatever they're gonna have to have to reinvent themselves now and reset and tweek to come out of this crisis so it's gonna be very cloud native this is a big deal can you share your your reaction to that absolutely and so as you pointed out there are kind of two worlds that exist right now companies that are moving to become more digital and transform and you mentioned the momentum I mean in Google cloud just over the last year greater than 50 percent revenue growth and you know and I greater than 10 billion dollar run rate business and adding customers that are really quick flip you know including you know just yesterday slung and you know along the way Telecom Italia Major League Baseball Vodafone Lowe's Wayfarer Activision Blizzard's so this is not you this transformation and this digitization is not just for you know a few or just for any one industry it's happening across the board and then you add that to the implementations that have been happening across you know Shopify and the Spotify and HSBC which was a early customer of ours in the cloud and it you know already has a little bit of a head start of this transformation so you see these new companies coming in and seeing the value of digital transformation and then these other companies that have kind of lit the path for others to consider and you know Shopify is a really good example of how seeing you know drastic uptick in demand they're able to responding you know roughly half a million shops up and running you know during a period of time where many retailers are trying to figure out how to stay online or you can get online well what is your role at Google I see you're the managing director title is managing director ahead of the office of the CTO we've seen these roles before you know head of this CTO you're off see technical role is it partnering with the CEO on strategy is it you kick tire kicking new things are you overseeing any strategic initiatives what is what is your role so a little bit of all those things combined into one so I I spent the first couple decades of my career on the other side of the in the non-tech you know community no in the enterprise where we were still building technology and we were still you know digitally minded but not the way that people view technology in Silicon Valley and so you know spending a couple decades in that environment really gave me insights into how to take technology and apply them to a specific problem and when I came to Google five years ago yeah selfishly it was because I knew the potential of Google's technology having been on the other side and I was really interested in forming a better bridge between Google's technology and people like me who were CTOs of public companies and really wanted the leverage that technology for problems that I was solving whether it was aerospace public sector manufacturing what-have-you and so it's been great it's the it's the role of a lifetime I've been able to build the team that I wanted as an enterprise technologist for decades and the entire span of technologies at our disposal and we do two things one is we help our most strategic customers accelerate their path loud and 2 we create these signals by working with the top companies moving to the cloud and digitally transforming we learned so much John about what we need to build as an organization so it also helps balance out the Google driven innovation with our customer driven innovation yeah and I could I can attest that we didn't watching you guys from the from day one hired a lot of great enterprise people that I personally know so you getting the enterprise chops and staff and getting you seeing some progress I have to ask you though because I first of all a big fan of Google at the scale from knowing them from when they were just a little search engine to what they are now the there was an expression a few years ago I heard from enterprise customers it was goes along the lines like this I want to be like Google because you guys had a great network you had large-scale you've had all these things that were like awesome and then they realized what we can't be like Google we don't have that sorry we don't have large-scale data centers so there was a little bit of a translation and I want to say a little bit of a overplay of the Google hand and you guys had since realized that you didn't it wasn't just people gonna bang your doorstep and be adopting Google cloud because there was a little bit of a cultural disconnect from wanting to be like Google then leveraging Google in their business as they transform so as you guys have moved from that what's changed they still want to be like Google in the sense you have great security got a great network you got that scale and it prizes a little bit slower to adopt that which you're focused on now what is that the story there because I think that's kind of the theme that I'm hearing okay Google now understands me they know I'm not as fast as Google they got super great people we are training our people we're treating you know retrain them this is the transformation that they're going through so you might be a little bit ahead of them certainly but now they need to level up how do you respond to that well a lot of this is the transformation that Thomas has been enacting you know over the last year plus and it comes in kind of three very operation or technical pillars that I think the first we expanded our customer and we continue to expand our customer facing themes you know three times what they were before because we need to be there we need to be in those situations we need to hear from the customer mean to learn more about the problems they're trying to solve so we don't just take a theoretical principle and try to overlay it onto a problem we actually get very visceral understanding of what trying to solve but you have to be there the game that empathy and that understanding and so one is showing up and that you know has been mobilizing a much larger engine the customer facing out personnel from Google second it's also been really important that we evolve our own you know just as Google brought sre principles and principles of distributed systems and software design out for the world we also had a little bit to learn about transitioning from typical customer support and moving to more customer experience so you've seen you know that evolution under on this as well with cloud changing you know moving from talking about support to talking about customer experience that white glove experience that our customers get our partners get from the beginning of their journey with us all the way through and then finally making sure that our product roadmap has the solutions that are relevant across be priority industries for us and you know that's again that only comes from being present from having a focus in those industry and then developing the solutions that progress those companies so again not this isn't about taking you know a principle and trying to apply it blindly this is about adding that connection that really deep connections to our customers and our partners and letting that connection manifest the things that we have to do as a product company the best support them over a long period some of these deals we've been announcing these are 10-year five-year multi-year strategic partnerships they go across the campus of you know all of you and you know those are the really exciting scaled partnerships but you know to your point you can't just take SR re from Google and apply it to company X but you can take things like error budgets or how we think about the principles of sree and you can apply them over the course of developing technology collaborating innovating together yeah and I think cloud native is gonna be a key thing and yeah I think what it's just my opinion but I think one of those situations where the better mousetrap will win if your cloud native and you have api's and you have the kind of services that people will will know beaded to your doorstep so I have to ask you with Thomas Korean on board obviously we've been following his career as well at Oracle he knows what he's doing comes in to Google it's being built out it's like a rocket ship at this point what bet is he making and what bet are you guys making on behalf of your customers what's the if you have to boil it down to Google clouds big bet what is the bet on the technology side and what's the bet on the business side sure well I've already mentioned you know I've already Internet's you know the big strategy that Thomas is brought in and you know that is the that's again those three pillars making sure that we show up and that we're present by having a scaled customer facing organization and making sure that we transitioned from you know a typical support mindset into more of customer experience mindset and then making sure that those solutions are tailored and available for our priority industries if I was to add you know more color to that I think one of the most important changes that Thomas has personally been driving as he's been converting us to a partner LED is and a partner led organization and this means a lot of investments in large mobile systems integrators like Accenture and Deloitte but this also means that like the Splunk announcement from yesterday that isn't just the cell >> this is a partnership it goes deep across go-to-market product and self do and then we also bring in very specific partners like Temenos in Europe for financial services or a SATA or a rack space for migrations and as a result the already we're seeing really incredible lifts so for example nearly 200 percent year-over-year increase in partner influenced revenue Google cloud and almost like a 13 X year-over-year increase in new customers one-bite partners that's the kind of engine that builds a real hyper scale does it's just saying you mentioned Splunk I want to get that in a second but I also notice there was a deal with Dallas group on ECM subscriptions which kind of leads me into the edge piece there's a real edge component here with Google cloud and I think I'd Akashi edge with Jennifer Lynn a few years ago really digging into the built-in security and the value of the Google Network I mean a lot of the scuttlebutt around the valley and the industry is you know Google's got an amazing network store a software-defined networking is gonna be a hot program programmable area so you got programmable networking and you got edge and edge security these are killer areas that need innovation could you comment on what you guys are doing there and do you agree I'm out see with you have a killer Network and you're leveraging it what's the can you just give some insight into what's going on those those two areas network and then the edge yeah I think what you're seeing is the manifestation of an of the progression of cloud generally what do I mean by that you know started out as like get everything to the data center you know we kind of had this thought that maybe we could take all the workloads and we could get them to these centralized hubs and they could redistribute out the results and you know drive the latency down over time so we span the portfolio of applications and services that would be relevant over time and what we've seen over the last decade really in cloud is an evolution >> more of a layered architecture and that layered architecture includes you know poor data centers that includes CDN capacity points of presence that includes edge and just in that list of customers over the last year I there were at least three or four telcos in there and you've also probably heard and seen quite a bit of telco momentum coming from asks in recent announcements I think that's an indication that a lot of us are thinking about how can we pick big technology like anthos for example and how could we orchestrate workloads create a common control play and you know manage services across those three shells if you will of the architecture and that's a that's a very strategic and important area for us and I think generally for the cloud industry easy it was expanding beyond the data center as the place where everything happens and you can look at you know Google Phi you look at stadia you can look at examples within Google they go well beyond cloud as to how we think about new ways to leverage that kind of creature all right so we saw some earnings come out on Amazon side as Google both groups and Microsoft well all three clouds are crushing it on the cloud side that's a tailwind I get that but as it continues we're expecting post kovat some you know redistribution of development dollars and projects whether it's IT going cloud native or whatever new workloads we are predicting a Cambrian explosion of new things from core to edge and this is gonna create some lift so I want to get your thoughts on you guys strategy with go-to market as well as your customers as they now have the ability to build workloads and apps with ai and data there seems to be a trend towards the vertical ization of whether its sales and go to market and/or specialism because you have horizontal scalability with cloud and you now have data that has distinct value in these verticals so it really seems to be a I won't say ratification but in a way that seems to be the norm whether you come into a market you have specialization but the date is there so apps can be more agile do you are you guys seeing that and is that something that you guys are considering from from an organization standpoint and how do customers think about targeting vertical industries and their customers yeah I I bring this to and where you started going there at the end of the question is exactly the way that we think about it as well which is we've moved from you know here are storage offers for everybody and here's you know basic infrastructure everybody and now we've said how can we make sure that we have solutions that are tailored with very specific problems that customers are trying to solve and we're getting to the point now where your performance and variety of technologies are available to be able to compose very specific solutions and if you think about the substrate that has to be there you know we mentioned you have to have some really great partners and you have to have you know roadmap that is focused on priority solution area so for example at Google cloud you know we're very focused on six priority vertical areas so retail financial services health care manufacturing and industrials health care life sciences public sector and you know as a result of being very focused in those areas we can make more target investments and also align our entire go-to-market system and our entire partner ecosystem ecosystem around those beers specific priority areas so for example we worked with SATA and HDA Healthcare Rob very recently to develop and maintain a national response portal Berko vat19 and that's to help better inform communities and hospitals we can use looker to help with like a Commonwealth Care Alliance on nonprofit and that helps monitor patient system symptoms and risk factors so you know we're using you know a very specific focus in healthcare and a partner ecosystem - you know ferry tailored solutions you know you can also look at I mentioned Shopify earlier that's another great example of how in retail they can use something like Google meat inherent reliability scalability security to connect their employees during these interesting times but then they can also use GCP at Google cloud platform to scale out and as they come up with new apps and experiences for their shoppers for their shops they can rapidly deploy to your point and those you know those solutions and you know how the database performs and how those tiers perform you that's a very tight-knit feedback loop with our engineering teams yeah one of the things I'm seeing obviously with the virtualization of the kovat is that you know when the world gets back to normal it'll be hybrid and it'll be a hybrid between reality not physical and 100% virtual hybrid and that's going to impact events to media to everything every vertical will be impacted and I want to point out the Splunk team bring that back in because I want you to comment on the relevance of the Splunk to you and in context to Splunk has a cloud they got a great slogan data for every everywhere everywhere dated to everywhere I think it is but the cube we have a cloud every company will have a cloud scale at some level will progress to having some sort of cloud because they have data how are you guys powering those clouds because I think the Splunk deal is interesting their partner their stock price was up out on the news of the deal a nice bump their first Blunk shout out to those guys but they're a data company now they're cross-platform but they're not Google but they have a cloud so you know saying so they need to play in all the clouds but they need infrastructure they need support so how do you guys talk to that customer and that says hey the next pandemic that comes the next crisis that's going to cause some either social disruption or workflow disruption or work supply chain disruption I need to be agile I need have full cloud scale and so I need to talk to Google what do you say to them what's the pitch and as does a Splunk deal Samir some of those capabilities or tie that together for us the spunk deal and how it relates to sure for example proof themselves for the future sorry for example with the cloud deal you take a look at what Google is already really good at data processing at scale log analytics you take a look at what Splunk is doing you know with their events and security incident monitoring and the rest it a really great mashup because they see by platforming on Google cloud not only they get highly performant infrastructure but they also get the opportunity to leverage data tools data analytics tools machine learning and AI that can help them provide enhance services so not just about acity going up and down your periods of band but also enhancing services and continuing to offer more value to their customers and we see that you know it's a really big trend and you know this gets it something you know John a little bit bigger which is the two views of the world and we talked about very tailored focused solutions Splunk is an example of making a very methodical approach to a partnership developing a solution specifically you know with partners and you know in this case Splunk on the security event management side but we're always going to provide our data processing platform our infrastructure for companies across many different industries and I think that addresses one part of the topic which is you know how do we make sure that in periods of demand rapidly changing this deals back to the foundational elements of like AI infrastructure as a service and elasticity and we're gonna provide a platform infrastructure that can help companies move through periods of you know it's hard to forecast and/or demand may rise and fall you know in very interesting ways but then there's going to be funds where you know we we because they're not a necessarily a focused use case where it may just be generalized platform versus a focused solution so for example like in the oil and gas industry we don't develop custom AI ml solutions the facility upstream extraction for example but what we do do is work with renewable energy companies to figure out how they might be able to leverage some of our AI machine learning algorithms from our own data centers to make their operations more efficient and to help those renewable energy companies learn from what we've learned building out the but I consider to be a world leading renewable energy strategy and so classic and able mint model where you're enabling your platform for your customers okay so I got to ask the question I asked this to the Microsoft guys as well because Amazon you know has their own sass stuff but but really more of an tend the better products usually on the ecosystem side you guys have some killer sass cheap tree-sweet where customer if we use the g sqweep really deeply we also use some BigTable as well I want to build a cloud we have a cloud cube cloud but you guys have meat so I want to build my product on Google cloud how do I know you're not going to compete with me do you guys have those conversations around the trade-off between you know the pure Google services which provide great value for the areas where the ecosystem needs to develop those new areas that are gonna be great markets potentially huge markets that are out there well this is the power of partnership I mentioned earlier that one of the really big moves that Thomas is made has been developing a sense of partners and it kind of blurs the line between traditional what you would call a customer what you would call a partner and so having a really strong sense of which industries were in which we prioritize Plus having a really strong sense of where we want to add value and where you know our customers and partners want to add that value that's that's the foundational that's the beginning of that conversation that you just mentioned it's important that we have an ability to engage not just in a you know here's the cloud infrastructure piece of the puzzle but one of the things Thomas has also done in the East rata jia is has been to make sure that you know the Google cloud relationship is also a way to access all amazing innovation happening across all of Google and also help bring a strategic conversation in that includes multiple properties from across Google so that an HSBC and Google and have a conversation about how to move forward together that is comprehensive rather than you know having to wonder and have that uncertainty sit behind the projects that we're trying to get out and have high velocity on because they offer so much to retail bank for example well I got a couple more questions and then I'll let you go I know you got some other things going I really appreciate you digging the time sharing this great insight and updates as a builder you've been on the other side of the table now you're at Google heading up the CTO I was working with Thomas understanding them go to market across the board and the product mix as you talk to customers and they're thinking the good customers are thinking hey you know I want to come out of this Cove in on an upward trajectory and I want to use this opportunity to reset and realign for the future what advice do you have for those enterprises there could be small medium sized enterprises to the full large big guys and obviously cloud native we talked some of that already but what advice would you have for them as they start to really prioritize as some things are now exposed the collaboration the tooling the scale all these things are out there what have you seen and what advice would you give a CX o or C so or leader in the industry to think about and how they should come out of this thing how they should plan execute and move forward well I appreciate the question because this is the crux of most of my day job which is interacting with the c-suite and boards of you know companies and partners around the world and they're obviously very interested to learn or you know get a data point from someone at Google and the the advice generally goes in a couple of different directions out one collaboration is part of the secret sauce that makes Google what it is and I think you're seeing this right now across every industry and it you know whether you're a small medium-sized business or you're a large company if the ability to connect people with each other to collaborate in very meaningful ways to share information rapidly to do it securely with high reliability that that's the foundation that enables all of the projects that you might choose to you know applications to build services to enable actually succeed in production and over the long haul is that culture of innovation and collaboration so absolutely number one is you're having a really strong sense of what they want to achieve from a cultural perspective a collaboration perspective and the and the people because that's the thing that fuels everything else second piece of the you know advice especially in these times where there's so much uncertainty is where can you buy down uncertainty with vets that aren't you know that art you can you can learn without a high penalty and this is a this is why cloud I think is really really you know finding you know super scale it was our it was already on the rise but what you're seeing now and you know as you've linked back to me during this conversation we're seeing the same thing which is a high increase in demand of let's get this implemented now how can we do this more this is you know clearly one way to move through uncertainty and so look for those opportunities I'll give you a really good example mainframes one of the classic workloads of the you know on-premise enterprise and you know there's all sorts of there are all sorts of potential magic solves for getting mainframes to the cloud and getting out of mainframes but a practical consideration might be maybe you just front-end it with some Java or maybe you just get closer to other data centers within a certain amount of milliseconds that's required to have performant workload maybe you start chunking at a part and treat the workload a little bit differently rather than you know just one thing but there are a lot of years and investments in a workload that might run on a mainframe and that's a perfect example of out you know biting off too much it might be a little bit dangerous but there is a path to and so for example like we brought in a company called cornerstone to help with those migrations but we also have you know partnerships with you know data center providers and others globally from us our own built infrastructure to allow even you know a smaller stuff per site or more like post proximity location in the workload it's great you know everything had as a technical metaphor connection these days when you have a Internet digitally connected world we're living in you know the notion of a digital business was a research buzzword that's been kicked around for years but I think now kovat 19 you're seeing the virtual or digital it's really digital but you know virtual reality augmented reality is going to come fast to really get people to go WOW virtual virtualization of my business so you know we've been kind of kicking around this term business virtualization just almost as a joke but it's really more about okay this is about a new world a new opportunity to think about when we come out of this we're gonna still go back to our physical world now the hybrid now kicks in this kind of connects all aspects of business in every verticals not leahey I'm targeting like the this industry so there might be unique solutions in those industries but now the world is virtualized it's connected it's a digital environment these are huge concepts that I think has kind of been a fringe lunatic fringe idea but now it's brought mainstream this is gonna be a huge tailwind for you guys as well as developers and entrepreneurs and app application software this is gonna be we think a big thing what's your reaction to that which your based on your experience what do you see happening do you agree with it and you have any thing you might want to add maybe you know one kind of philosophical statement and then one more you know I bruised my shins a lot in this world and maybe share some of the black and blue coloration first from a philosophical standpoint the greater the crisis the more open-minded people become and the more creative people get and so I'm really excited about the creativity that I'm seeing you know with all of the customers that I work with directly plus our partners you know Googlers everybody's rallying together to think about this world differently and so to your point you know a shift in mindset you know there are there are very few moments where you get this pronounced a change and everyone is going through it all at the same time so that creates a you know an opportunity a scenario where the old thinking new strategies creativity you know bringing people in in new ways collaborating a new way and offer a lot of benefits more you know practically speaking and from my experience you know building technology for a couple decades you this is a it has an interesting parallel to you know building like tightly coupled really large maybe monoliths versus micro services and debate around you know do we build small things that can be reconfigured and you know built out by others or built on by others more easily or do we credit Golden Path and a more understood you know development environment and I'm not here to answer the question of which one's better is that's what's still a raging debate and I can tell you that the process of going through and taking a service or an application or a thing that we want to deliver the customer that one of our customers wants to deliver to their cost and thinking about it so comprehensively that you're able to think about it in its what its power its core functions and then thinking methodically about how to enable those core functions that is a you know that's a real opportunity and I think technology to your point is getting to the place where you know if you want to run across multiple clouds yeah this is the anthos conversation where you know recently g8 you know a global scale platform you know multi cloud platform that's a pretty big moment in technology and that opens up the aperture to think differently about architectures and that process of taking you know an application service and making it real well I think you're right on the money I think philosophically it's a flashpoints opportunity I think that's going to prove to be accelerating gonna see people win faster and lose faster you can see that quickly happen but to your point about the monolith versus you know service or decoupled based systems I think we allow a live in a world where it's a systems of you now you can have a monolith combined with decoupled systems that's distributed computing I think this is that the trend it's a system it's not one thing or the other so I think the debate will continue just like you know VI versus Emacs we know you don't know right so you know if people gonna have this debate but it's just if you think about as a system the use case defines the architecture that's the beautiful thing about the cloud so great insight I really appreciate it and how's everything going over there Google Cloud you got meat that's available how's your staff what's it like inside the Googleplex and the Google cloud team tell us what's going on over there people still working working remote how's everyone doing well as you can as you can tell from my scenario here my my backdrop yes still hard at work and we take this as a huge responsibility you know these moments is a huge responsibility because there are you know educators loved ones medical professionals you know critical life services that run on services that Google provides and so I can tell you were humbled by the opportunity to provide you know the backbone and the platform and the people and the curiosity and the sincere desire to help and I mentioned a couple of ways already just in this conversation where we've been able to leverage some of our investment in technology to help or people that really gets at the root of who we are so while we just like any other humans are going through a process of understanding our new reality what really fires us up and what really a chart is because is that this is a moment where what we do really well is very very important for the world in every geo in every vertical in every use case and every solution type so we're just take we're taking that responsibility very seriously and at the same time we're trying to make sure that you know all of our teams as well as all the teams that we work with our customers and partners are making it a human moment not just the technology moment well congratulations and thanks for spending the time great insight will appreciate will Grannis Managing Director head of Technology office of the CTO at Google cloud this certainly brings to the mainstream what we've been in the industry been into for a long time which is DevOps large-scale role of data and technology now we think it's going to be even more acute around societal benefits and thank God we have all those services for the frontline workers so thank you so much for all that way effort and thanks for spending the time here in the cube conversation appreciate it thanks for having John okay I'm John Farah here in Palo Alto Studios for remote cube conversation with Google cloud get in the update really looking at the future as it unfolds we are going to see this moment in time as an opportunity to move to the next level cloud native and change not only the tech industry but society I'm John Fourier thanks for watching

[Music] from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston it's the cube covering the IBM thing brought to you by IBM hello everybody this is state velocity of the cube and you're watching our wall-to-wall coverage of the IBM think digital experience at Justin Youngblood is here he's the vice president of IBM security Justin good to see you again thanks for coming on hey Dave good to be here thank you so look let's get right into it I mean we're here remote I wish we were you know for face-to-face and in Moscow II but things have changed dramatically there's a massive shift to work from home that's you know obviously kovat 19 has tightened the need for security but let's start with some of the things that you're seeing how you're responding the to secure those remote workers and let's get into some of the trends that you're seeing in the security space yeah absolutely some major trends and there is a big response around Cove at night 19 right now and and first of all you know what we tell all of our employees our clients our partners the entire ecosystem is number one priority stay safe and healthy of course even at IBM right now we have over 95% of IBM erse who are working from home we've seen that trend across our clients and partners as well and basically three themes keep popping up as it relates to security in Kovan 19 the first is clients are asking us to help them secure their remote workforce we have a number of tools technologies and services to help them do that the second is detecting and responding to accelerating threats amidst Cova 19 the threat actors are more active than ever they're driving some targeted attacks and phishing campaigns and our clients are asking us for help on that front and then the third is virtually extending security teams and operations and we've got a set of services managed services and and remote employees who can actually work with our clients and help them with their security operation centers and anything they need from a security program yeah I mean when you talk to CISOs they'll tell you look we you know our biggest problem is a lack of talent and we have all these fragmented tools and then now you throw kovat 19 at them and it's okay now overnight blank and secure the remote workforce so talk a little bit about this notion of platforms I've said often the security marketplace is very fragmented that accentuates the skills issue is you got to learn all these different tools and this is integration issues talk about platforms and how that might help solve this problem absolutely security platforms are on the rise do you see a lot of security platforms being announced by vendors today the problem statements are very clear oh as enterprises have moved along on their journey to cloud and digital transformation they now have workloads applications data users spread across multiple cloud environments every enterprise is using multiple clouds today so the problem statements become very clear for security security leaders have too many security tools they have too much data and they don't have enough people right so too many security tools that lack interoperability the average Enterprise has anywhere from 50 to 80 different security point products that don't talk to each other but trying to solve a security problem to pinpoint an issue actually takes looking at multiple screens too much data that comes without insights trying to stitch together all of this disparate data across a fragmented security landscape is very complex and it allows threats to be missed and then not enough people the shortage in cybersecurity is well documented over 2 million unfilled jobs today and that number continues to grow so enter security platforms that are that are on the value proposition of cleaning up this mess in November last year we announced the cloud pack for security that's IBM security platform and it has some some attributes that are powerful compelling we're seeing a lot of traction with client well you mentioned two things that really caught my attention the detection and the response because you know you're gonna get infiltrated everybody gets infiltrated and you know you've seen the stats it takes you know whatever 250 300 days before you can even detect it and then and then responses is critical so so talk about the cloud pack for security you know there are other platforms out there what makes yours different yeah are basically traditional security is broken we have a vision of modern security at centers on the cloud pack for security we set out two years ago with the concept of a next-generation platform it's a security control plane that works across hybrid multi cloud environments it connects all your security data and tools with a common platform that includes IBM and security tools and cloud platforms so whether you're using a sim like Q radar or Splunk endpoint detection systems like carbon black or CrowdStrike and any of the IBM any of the cloud platforms including IBM AWS or Azure it connects all of those and brings the insights together we work with over 50 enterprises and service providers help us co-create this solution and the attributes are its multi cloud capable but for security is multi cloud capable it can bring all the insights together from across these hybrid multi cloud environment it's open it's built and based on open standards and open technologies it's simple and it's composable in the sense that it has the ability to integrate with IBM and third-party technologies and add more capabilities over time what we see from other security platforms in the industry is they they basically approached the problem saying mr. customer bring all your data to our cloud will run the analytics on it and then provide you the insights what's different with cloud pack for security is we take the analytics to the data customers don't need to move their data from all the disparate sources where it exists we take the analytics to the data and bring those insights back to a common console or the or the security leaders and security analysts to take action on why you preaching to the choir now because well first of all you've got the the integration matrix and you've got the resources obviously I mean you mentioned a couple of really prominent and you know some hot products right now and this is the challenge right best to breathe versus fully integrated suite and what you're saying if I understand it correctly is we're not asking you to make that trade-off if you want to use you know of some tool go for it we're gonna integrate with that and give you the control and then the second piece is bringing that analytics capability to the data cuz that's the other thing you really don't want to move your data you the Einstein written move as much data as you have to but no more right absolutely this is a this is a team sport security is a team sport and that's where open technologies are so important the ability with an open API to integrate with any IBM or third-party technology this is not a rip and replace strategy clients can't afford to do that they want to work within their existing security tools but they need a common platform for bring it all together so we talked about the ability to gain complete insights across your hybrid multi cloud environment the ability to act faster with a set of playbooks and automation that basically runs security run books once a once an incident is detected to automatically go about about the fix and then third is the ability to run anywhere cloud pack for security like all of the IBM cloud packs is built on kubernetes and Red Hat openshift so it can be deployed on-premise or on the public cloud of the customers choosing complete choice and flexibility in that deployment I mean another key point you just made is automation and you talked earlier about that skills gap and the unfilled jobs automation is really the way certainly a way and probably a the most important way to close that gap I want to ask you about open could you think about you know security and networks and you know opens almost antithetical to secure I want close but you mean open in a different context and what if we could talk about that and maybe break down the key aspects of open as you defined it we've seen open technologies open standards open source be adopted across technology domains think of operating systems and Linux think of application development think of the management domain and kubernetes which now has a community of over 4,000 developers behind it it's more than any single vendor could put behind it so it's so open technologies really provide a force multiplier for any any industry security has been a laggard in adopting open standards and open source code so last year 2019 October time frame IBM partnered with McAfee and dozens of other vendors and launching the open Cyber Security Alliance focused on open standards that promote interoperability across security tools focused on open source code which we've adopted into an underpin the cloud pack I beams cloth pack for security focused on threat intelligence and analytics and ultimately sharing best practices and let me talk about run books this really comes down to the automated play books that customers need to run in response to a security threat or incident that's become really important automating actions to help security operations teams be more productive so all of those capabilities in total sum up what we're talking about with open technology for security and it underpins our IBM cloud pack for security solution well I've always felt that Open was part of the answer and like you said the industry was slowly to adopt adversary is highly capable he-she they're very well-funded do you think our industry is ready for this open approach we're absolutely ready for the open approach we see customers responding extremely positively to the cloud pack for security and the fact that it is built on open technologies many enterprises come to us and say they want that future proofing of their investments they want to know that what they purchased will interoperate with their existing environments without a rip rip and replace and the only way to get there is through open standards and open technology so it's it's already being well received and we're gonna see it grow just like it has any other technology domains operating systems application development management etc now is the time for security while Justin you're operating in one of the most important aspects of the IT value chain thank you for keeping us safe stay safe down there in Austin and thanks for coming on the queue thank you Dave good to be here take care and thank you for watching everybody watching the cubes coverage of IBM sync 2020 ibm's digital production keep it right there we're right back right after this short break [Music] you

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation vibrator this is Dave Volante and welcome to this special cube conversation as you know I've been running a CXO series now for several weeks really trying to understand how leaders are dealing and coping with the Cova 19 crisis today we want to switch gears a little bit and talk not only about how leadership has sort of navigated through this crisis but also start to imagine what it's going to look like coming out of it I'm going to introduce you to a company that have been talking about now for the last well six to nine months company called octave as you know from my previous breaking analysis this is a company that not only is in the security business they really kind of made their mark with identification management but also really there's a data angle normally when you think about security you thinking about auto security it means that less user flexibility it means less value from the user standpoint what what octa has done really successfully is bring together both endpoint security as well as that data angle and so the company is about six hundred million dollars in revenue they've got an eighteen billion dollar valuation which you know may sound kind of rich at 30 X a revenue multiple but as I've reported the company is growing very rapidly I've talked about the you know the rule of 40 octa is really a rule of 50 type of company you know by that definition they're with me here to talk about the product side of things as dia jolly who's the chief product officer yeah thanks so much for coming on the cube I hope you're doing okay how are things out in California things are going well good to meet you as well Dave I hope you're doing well as well yeah we're hanging in there you know the studios are rocking the cube you know continues our daily reporting I want to start with your role you're relatively new to octa you've got a really interesting background particularly understanding endpoints you're at Google Google home of Google Nest you spent some time you know worrying about looking after Xbox do you a good understanding of what's going on in the marketplace but talk about your your role and how specifically you're bringing that to enterprise sure so I drove about this I I say that I've done every kind of known product management imaginable the man at this point I'm done both Hardware Don software so dealt a lot with endpoints as you talked about that a lot with sass dealt with consumer dealt with enterprise and all over the place completely different sizes so after really my role as a chief product officer is to be able to understand and what our customers need right and what are the challenges they're facing and not just the challenges they're facing today but also what are the challenges that they'll face tomorrow that they don't even know about and then help build products to be able to overcome that both with our engineering teams as well as with our sales engineering team so that we can take it to market now my background is unique because I've seen so many identity being used in so many different ways across so many different use cases whether it's enterprise or its consumer and that given that we covered both sides spectrum I can bring that to bear yes so what I've reported previously is that that you guys kind of made your mark with with identification management but in terms of both workforce but also customer identification management which has been I think allowed you to be very very successful I want to bring up a chart and share something that I've I've shared a lot of data with our audience previously some guys if you bring that up so this is data from enterprise Technology Research our data partner and for those who follow this program you know we we generally talk in in two metrics a net score which is a measure of spending momentum and and also market share which really isn't real market share but it's it's pervasiveness in the survey and what you can see here is the latest April survey from over 1200 CIOs and IT practitioners and we're isolating on an octa and and we brought it back to July 15 survey you see a couple of points here I want to make one is it something to the right this is pervasiveness or market share so octa in the market is doing very very well it's why the valuation is so high what's driving the growth and then you can see in the green a 55% net net score very very strong it's one of the leaders in security but as I said it's more than than that so dia from a product standpoint what is powering this momentum sure so as you well know the world is working from home what after does is it provides Identity Management that allows you to connect to any technology and by any technology it primarily means technology technology that's not just on premise like your applications on-premise old-school applications or into software that's on premise but it also means technology that's in the clouds of SAS applications application infrastructure that's in the cloud etc and on the other hand it also allows companies to deploy applications where they can connect to their customers online so as more and more of the world moves to work from home you need to be able to securely and seamlessly allow your employees your partners to be able to connect from their home and to be able to do their work and that's the foundation that we provide now if you look at if you we've heard a lot in the press about companies like zoom slack people that provide online collaboration and their usage has gone up we're seeing similar trends across both octa as well as the entire security industry in general right and if you look at information recently since over to started phishing attacks have increased by six hundred and sixty seven percent and what we've seen in response is one of our products which is multi-factor authentication we've experienced in eighty percent growth in usage so really as Corvette has pushed forward there was a trend for people to be able to work remotely for people to be able to access cloud apps and but as ubered has suddenly poured gas on the fire for that we're seeing our customers reaching out to us a lot more needing more support and just the level of awareness and the level of interest raising let's talk about some of the trends that you guys see in the marketplace and like to better understand how that informs your product or you know roadmap and decisions you know obviously this cloud you guys have made a really good mark in the cloud space you know with both your your operating model your pricing model the modern stack the other is a reference that upfront which data talked a lot about digital transformation digital us data course the third is purity related to trust we've talked a lot on the cube about how the perimeter is there is no particular anymore the Queen is left her castle and so what are the big trends that you see the big waves that that you're riding and how does that inform your product directly sure so a few different things I think number one if you think about the way I've phrase this is or the way I think about it is the following any big technological trend you see today right whether it's the move the cloud whether it's mobile whether it's artificial intelligence intelligence you think about the neural nets etc or it's a personalized consumer experience all of that fundamentally depends on identity so the most important the so from a from being an identity provider the most important thing for us is to be able to build something that is flexible enough that is broad enough that it is able to span multiple uses right so we've taken from a product perspective that means we can follow two philosophies we can either the try and go solve each of these pain points one by one or we can actually try to build a platform that is more open that's more extensible and that's more flexible so that we can solve many of these use cases right and not only can we solve it because there's it extensible our customers can customize it they can build on top of it our partners can build on top of it so that's one thing that's one product philosophy that we hold dear and so we have the Octagon cloud which is a platform which provides both workforce identity as well as customer identity using the same underlying components the same multi-factor authentication we use for workforce we package up as an SDK so that our customer identity customers that's number one the second thing is you rightfully mention is data you can't really secure identity without data so we have very we have a lot of data across our customers we know when the users logging in we know what device they're logging in front we know the security posture on the device we know where they're logging in from we know their different behaviors were apps they go into or during wartime of the day etc so being able to harness all this data to say hey and apply ml model squared to say hey is the user secure or not is a very very core foundation of our product so for example we have what we call risk-based authentication you can not only do things like hey this user seems to be logging on from a location they've never logged on from but you could even do things like well you may not want to stop the user they may be traveling so instead of just asking them for a for a password you ask them for a multi-factor right so that's the other piece of it and in many ways data and security and usability are three legs of a triangle the more data you have the more you can allow a user you more security you can provide a user without creating more friction so it's sometimes helpful for the audience to understand a company in a edit Avant act in the landscape so the obvious platform out there is Active Directory now Microsoft with Azure Active Directory you know really you know trying to and and that's really been on their platforms but with api's you know Microsoft has got a thumbs in every pie how does octave differentiate from some of the other traditional platforms that are out there and and what gives you confidence that it and you can continue to do so going forward post kovat that's it that's a fantastic question Dave um so I think we divide if you think about our competitors on the workforce side we've got Microsoft and a couple of other competitors and on the customer Identity side really it's a bill versus buy story right most companies customer identity internally so let's take workforce first Microsoft is the dominant player there they've got Active Directory they've now got Azure Active Directory and from a Microsoft perspective I think Microsoft is always been great at building products or building technology that interconnected run the world is going to more there's more and more technology proliferation in the world and the way we differentiate is by becoming a neutral and independent platform so whether you're on a Microsoft stack whether you're on a Google stack whether you're on an amazon stack we are able to connect with you deeply we connect just as well with all 365 as they connect with Salesforce as we connect with AWS right and that has been our core philosophy and not only is that a philosophy for other when other vendors it's a philosophy for ourselves as well we have multi-factor authentication so do many other providers like duo if you want to use ours great if you don't want to use ours with our platform who use the one that's best for your technology and I think what we've always believed in from a product perspective is this independence this neutrality this ability to plug-and-play any technology you want into a platform to be able to do what you want and the technology that's best for your business's need so what's interesting what you said about the sort of make versus buy that's particularly relevant for the customer identification management because let's say you know I'm buying from Amazon I've got Amazon they know who I am but if I understand it correctly customers now are able to look across brands maybe cohort selling maybe make specific offers analyze the data that's an advantage that you bring that maybe do it yourself doesn't Frank maybe talk about that a little bit sure so really if you think about if you think about a bill versus buying even ten years ago life used to be relatively simple maybe 15 years ago you had a website you as your username your the password you weren't really using you don't have multiple channels you didn't have multiple devices as prevalent you didn't have multiple apps in a lot of cases connected to each other right and in that in that day and age password was fairly secure you weren't doing a lot of personalization with the user data or had a lot of sensitive user data so building a custom identity solution having your customer managing your customers identity yourself was fairly easy now it's becoming more and more hard number one I just talked about the phishing attacks they're an equal number of attacks on the customer identity side right so how do you actually secure this identity how do you actually use things like multi-factor authentication how do you keep up with all the latest in multi-factor authentication touch ID face ID etcetera and that's one the second thing we provide is scale for a number of companies we also provide the ability to scale dramatically which scaling identity and being being able to authenticate someone and keep someone authenticated in real time is actually a very big channel challenge as you get to more and more scale and then the last thing that you mentioned is this ability we provide a single view of the user which is super super powerful because now if you think about one of our customers Albertsons they have multiple different apps there are multiple different digital experiences and he don't have a siloed view of their customer across all these experiences here one identity for your customer that customer uses that one identity to log on to all your digital experiences across all channels and we're able to bring that data back together so if Albertsons wants to say hey somebody shot a in or bought something in one particular app but I know people that buy this particular object like something else that's available in another app they can give a promotion for it or they can give a discomfort that's so that makes a lot of sense I went into the PR platform get our data partner and I looked at which industries are really showing moment so remember this survey focus was run right in the heart of the the Cova 19 pandemic from from mid-march the mid April so it's a good of good current data point and there were four that stood out large companies healthcare and pharma telco which is courses this work-from-home thing and then consumer the example that you just gave from Albertsons is really you know sort of around that consumer there are a lot of industries that obviously been hit airlines restaurants hospitality but but these four really stood out as growth areas despite the kovat 19 pandemic I want to ask you about octane you just got it had your big user conference anything product specific that came out of that that our audience should know about I mean I'm an interested in access gateway I know that wasn't necessarily a new announcement but Cloud Gateway what were the highlights of some of those things from a product stamp yeah of course so we did we did made a very difficult decision to pivot octane virtually and we did this because a number of our customers are given what they're facing with the Kovach pandemic wanted to hear more around news around what our product launches are how they could use this with cetera and really I'd say there are three key product launches that I want to highlight here we had a number of different announcements and it was a very successful conference but the three that are the most relevant here one is we've always talked about being a platform and we've set this for the past four or five years I think and but over the last your and going into the next couple of years we're investing very very heavily in making our platform even more powerful even more extensible even more customizable and so that it can go across the scenarios you described right which is whether you're on Prem with Auto access gateway or you're in the cloud or in some kind of hybrid environment or you using some mix-and-match or work from home people in the office etc so really what we did this year over the last year was deepen our platform footprint and we started releasing the four components available in a platform which we call platform services so we have six components and we were directories that is customizable and and flexible so you can build your own emails except for N equals four users adds information related to them we have an integration platform that we've made available at a deep level where where our customers can use SDKs tools etc to be able to integrate with octa in a platform which we've talked a lot about and then we released three new platform services and one was what we call arc identity engine we had released we talked about this last year and this year we talked about it last year from a customer identity perspective this year we brought her into our workforce identity but also what that does is it allows you a lot more flexibility for situations like we're in right it allows you flexibility to define security policies at the parabola it so you could decide hey for my email I don't want my customers to have to use a multi-factor authentication for but for Salesforce I would definitely want them to use a multi-factor authentication if they're not in the office and it also allows you to have a lot more flexible factor recovery so for example if you forgot your password one of the biggest pain points of co-ed has been the number of helpdesk costs have been rising through the roof the phone calls are ringing nonstop right and one of the biggest reasons for helpdesk are says oh I can't login I got locked out either lost a factor or L forgot my password it helps with that um so that's one set of announcements the second set of announcements was we launched a brand new devices platform and personally this is my personal favorite but really what the devices platform allows you to do is the feature in it that we launched is called Fast Pass and what phosphorous allows you to do is it actually takes phosphorous to the next level it allows you to basically use logging into your device and us understanding the posture of the device and all the user context around you to be able to log you directly dr. then I imagine if you're on a Mac or a iOS device or an Android or a Windows device just being able to face match into your iOS or being able to touch ID into your Windows hello and you're automatically logged into lockdown right that is that and and the way we do that is we have this client on across all these operating systems that can really understand the security posture of the device it can understand of the device is managed if it's safe if it's jailbroken if it's unmanaged it can also connect with multiple signals on the device so if you have an EDR and MDM vendor we can ingest those signals and what they think of the risk we can also ingest signals directly from apps if apps things like um G suite and Salesforce actually track user behavior to determine risk they can pass those signals to us and then we can make a decision on hey we should allow the user to authenticate directly into octa because they've authenticated their device which we can make a decision that says no let's provider let's ask them to step up with a multi-factor authentication or we can say no this is too risky let's deny access and all of this is configurable by the IT admin they can decide the risk levels they're comfortable with they can decide the different risk levels by different apps so that was another major announcement and then and as a product person you rarely ever get the chance to actually increase security and usability at one time which is why it's my favorite you increase both security and usability together now the last one was action was a workflows engine we call it workflows lifecycle management and we it's really we launched a graphical no cord user interface identity is so important so many business processes for our customers there's so many business processes built an identity for example if someone joins her company you usually either have a script that allows them access to the applications they need to or you actually have an IT admin sitting in there trying to manually provide access or when they leave right what workflow lifecycle management or lifecycle management workflows allows you to do is it actually allows you to provide it actually provides you the no core graphical user interface where you can build all these flows so now you don't need someone that knows coding you can even have a business unit so for example I for me in the product for the product org I can have someone say hey building a business process similar it's something you would build in sort of like an iPad and allow everyone that comes in to be able to have access to fig mom because we use pigma a lot right those are the kinds of things you can do and it's super powerful and it takes the ability of our already existing lifecycle management product to the next level well thank you for that that's that summary dear so I want to kind of close with I mean those of you have been following the cube for a while there I think there's some similarities between octa and and and service now that obviously obvious differences but we started following you know ServiceNow pre-ipo is less than a hundred million dollar company and we've seen that company build out as a platform company and that's really what octa is doing here we're talking about a total available market that's yeah probably north of 50 billion so the the question I have he is you know what Frederic and pod started 11 years ago playing on the dynamics coming out of the financial crisis that got us to where we are today now you've got the challenge of you've achieved reached escape velocity now you've got this you know massive growth opportunity in front of you how do you see the product portfolio evolving expanding and I'm also interested in postcode with 19 you know no whiteboards no face-to-face contact not at least not for a while and how you're kind of managing through that but but how can we expect the product portfolio to expand over time what can you share with us so one of the given how pervasive identity has become and given how not just broad but at the same time deep it is there are multiple different places or product portfolio >> and a number of different places were thinking about right so one is you mentioned today we play in workforce identity and customer identity but we haven't even begun to talk about how we might play in consumer right one of the one of the biggest perk matter is consumers and consumers protecting their own identity so often an employee is not using their identity to lock the seals ports and you have an attack on a company and offered an employee actually logging into their Gmail their personal Gmail or their personal or some personal website that bank and they get and their credential get compromised in their fluency impossible so the more protective the more directly consumers the more we indirectly protect both enterprises from work from an employer as well as a customer perspective howdy we're an enterprise company so it doesn't mean that we are going to go direct to consumer there are ways to make employees more secure by what the director calls were so that's one the second thing is managing identities I think we've as the number of applications as the number of technologies are proliferate managing and an employee's life cycle who that governing that the life cycle is not administering etc is also fully stock also becoming very very challenging it was all well and good we'll never can ask and you were on that that's not true anymore an average company uses I think close to 200 applications and then if you broaden back to other resources like infrastructure there's a lot lock more so how do you actually build automated systems that based on the employee status based on their rule based on the project they're on provides them the right access for the right amount of time the third thing you mentioned is and you should pass on this initially but this is the there's this concept of zero security right and the perimeters disappeared how do you provide security so if you look at the industry at large today there are tons of different security vendors trying to provide security at each point if you talk to any see-saw out there it's really really hard to cobble all of this together and one of the things we were trying to do is we're trying to figure out how with our partners we can build a silly end-to-end solution for n - n zero trust for our customers so that's that's another area that the of the product portfolio we're pushing and then finally with the whole digital transformation and customer identity yes more and more companies want their customers to go back online yes more and more customers convenience of being able to interact online with Billy if you think about it the world has changed dramatically over the last three years with privacy laws with things like gdpr CCP etc how do you actually manage your customers obviously you actually manage their content how do you ensure that while you're using all this data from across these apps that we talked about here you and you're using for the first benefit how do you make sure that the minister private is secure and and how do you ensure your customers that's another major area that I think our customers are asking us for helping and so those are areas or so that you should be a big signature the next two to three years some of it will be through partnership that's generally that high-level directions we're headed in wealthy you so much for coming on the key on the key and sharing the product roadmap and some other details about the great company really interested in watching its continued ascendancy good luck in the marketplace and thank you for watching everybody this is Dave Villante you conversations we'll see you next time [Music]

from around the globe it's the cube with digital coverage of Red Hat summit 2020 brought to you by Red Hat welcome back this is the cubes coverage of Red Hat summit 2020 of course the event happening digitally we're bringing in the guests from where they are around the globe happy to welcome back to the program and he's one of the keynotes because he's also many times cube alumni chris wright is the senior vice president and chief technology officer at Red Hat chris it is great to see you and we've got almost matching hats you have a real red hat fedora I've got one that the you know kubernetes Red Hat team OpenShift team gives out in Europe so in case anybody in the Red Hat community goes yes I've been a longtime member of the community I got you know I think my original Red Hat baseball cap probably 15 years ago but the Hat that I had is not one of the nice felt one it is they're pretty good to see here all right so we've gotta wait a little bit to get your keynote but so many topics I want to get to with you but you know of course as I mentioned me open and it's pretty obvious everyone's remote right now is kind of you know special times we are living in so bring us inside a little bit you know your your organization your group or community you know what what this means and how's everybody doing well I mean it'd be hard not to sort of acknowledge that there's a major global event happening right now and and kovetz really changing how we operate how we work from a RedHat perspective our number one priority is just employee safety and employ health and so we we were quick to send our folks home and have everybody to work from home and so what's interesting from a RedHat point of view I think and then even if you broaden that out to open-source communities the the distributed nature of open-source development and and specifically the engineering teams Red Hatter are pretty distributed kind of mirroring those open-source communities that we participate in so in the one hand you can kind of say well things haven't changed substantially in the sense of how do we how do we operate in upstream communities but on the other hand people working from home is it's a whole new set of challenges I mean my kids are 12 and 14 but you know say you have toddlers that's a real distraction or you have a working environment at home that's crowded with multiple people I mean it can really change how you approach your daily your your your daily work life um so creating that balance has been really important and for our teams we talk a lot about just think empathy think about how you're supporting one another and again when you broaden that out to the larger communities I think probably a really important aspect of open-source development is crossing corporate boundaries and being inclusive of such a broad set of contributors that there's a built-in resiliency associated with open source communities which i think is fantastic and then when you add to that sort of the the enthusiasm around just doing great things there's a lot of interesting activities that are collaborative in nature that are community based that are trying to address the Kovach crisis whether it's 3d printing of supplies or whether it's contact tracing applications that help people understand where they become across kovat or anything like that I mean a lot of cool stuff happening that's inspired by a real challenge to the entire globe yeah okay Chris one of my favorite things the last few years that summit has you know talk and he's cut talking to companies that are going through their journey of you know what we usually call digital transformation what we have always said from the research side is what separates you know people that have successfully gone through this is that data and they become data-driven and data is such an important piece of what they're doing well I think everyone has been getting a real crash course on data because not only businesses but you know governments and you know the entire globe now is you know watching the daily data trying to understand data sources you know bring us inside is to you know really the importance of data and you know where that intersects with everything that red hat is well the those are great examples I mean it's sometimes a little depressing but the the notion that data is a critical part of decision-making and access to quality data in real time is what helps us make better decisions more effective decisions and more efficient decisions and so when you when you look at the amount of data being produced it just keeps growing you know it's sort of on the exponential growth curve and when you look at the commensurate amount of compute power associated with all of that data it's also growing which is maybe an obvious statement what it says is we are gathering more and more data and the degree to which we can pull meaningful insights out of that data is really how much we can impact our companies you know value and differentiation and in the context of something like Cova that means vaccine discoveries and you know shortening times to field trials in in a more business context it's talking about how quickly you can respond to your customers needs and we see a really dynamic shift and the work force all working from home that puts a real strain on the infrastructure we're here supporting infrastructure builders and the amount of data that they can collect to efficiently operate infrastructure is critical at a time when people are distributed and getting access into the lab environments is challenging and so it you know I think there's a lot to be said for the amount of data that's being produced and then how we analyze it we think of it in terms of bringing data to applications and historically they kind of lived in separate I'd call them silos bringing the data sources and data processing and model development all onto a common platform is a really powerful thing that's happening in the industry today which is which is exciting so you know we were bringing data to be a central actors how I like to describe it yeah well look I'm really glad how you connected that discussion of data to the applications we as you know my background really is on the infrastructure side and the concern I have a lot of times as infrastructure people you know we talk about the bits and bytes we talk about the infrastructure but the only reason we have infrastructure is to run those applications and you know deal with that data it was hoping you can connect the dots for us the key note that all gave one of the main things he's talking about it where's the open hybrid cloud and I had a great discussion with him on the cube so with that setup of applications and data you know how does that intersect you know with what Red Hat calls the open hybrid cloud and what differentiates Red Hat's position there from some of the other discussions that we hear in the industry about cloud whether the open hybrid cloud is is a platform I think that's the best way to think of it and that platform it's a it's a platform that spans different types of infrastructures so that's public clouds that's on-premises data centers you know the enterprise zones themselves and I think important increasingly out to the edge so the notion of where you deploy isn't also coupled to what platform do I have to develop to in order to do that deployment and you know when we talk about the edge extending out to the edge that means you're getting closer to those data sources so bringing the data in doing the Associated inference and making decisions close to that data where latency really can matter is a big part of what that open hybrid cloud platform brings to to the market or to our customers and when you think about an application developer typically an application developer is trying to in a you know enable some some behavior or feature or functionality and the more we can drive use data to drive the behavior or drive the functionality the more personalized and application is the more intelligent the application is and so the connection between data the data sources the data processing the data science behind data cleansing and model generation and the associated models that can be easily accessed by applications that's the real power that's the real value that works to help develop for our customers so they can change their business we actually do this internally it's how we operate you know we collect data we use data to make decisions we use data in our product release process and the platform that we've created is a data processing and analytics and machine learning platform that we use internally and we also make that externally available as an open source project the open data hub so open and data and hybrid cloud are all intertwined at this point yeah one of the things that really has been highlighted to me at Summit this year is that connection you know we always knew Red Hat had you know strong developer community out there but you know you think back to Linux Linux has eyes directly into the application you look across the portfolio and it's not the app dev team over here and the infrastructure team over here and you know how do we operate all of these various pieces you know ansible you know has connections into all the various roles so what want you to just comment you know with kind of your you know CTO role and you you look over the entire portfolio but that discussion of you know how roles are changing how organization and make sure that they're not a bunch of various functions that aren't in sync but you know we're really coming together to help respond to the business needs and move forward in the speed that is needed in today's world well I think the the early stages of that were well captured with the DevOps phrase so bringing developers and operations closer together it's not always clear what that means and in some cases that the the notion of a of a platform and the notion of operating an application and then who operates the platform I think there there's been some question in the industry about exactly what that means we're thinking of it today to sort of stick with the buzzwords in the dev sac ops context and even what I would call AI dead set cops so in data and intelligence infused obses cops and the idea is developers are just trying to move rapidly so the degree to which the underlying infrastructure is just there to support application development is the operations teams need yeah that's what the operation seems trying to provide developers need at the same time access to tooling to consistency from test environments through to production environments and also access to those data models that I was talking about earlier so bringing that all together I think on the DevOps side or the dev Sackhoff side it's how can you build a platform that gives the right business specific guidelines and sort of guardrails that allow developers to move as quickly as possible without getting themselves into trouble and you know inadvertently creating a security vulnerability by pulling in an old dependency as a concrete example so bringing these things together I think is what's really important and it's a big part of what we're focused on the so operational side being infused with intelligence that's data in telemetry you're gathering from at the platform level and using models to inform how you operate the system and then if you go up a level to the application development sort of CIC deep pipeline where can you make intelligent recommendations to developers as they're pulling in dependencies or even writing code and then give easy access to the data science workflow to intercept so that what you're delivering is a well integrated model with an application that you know has a lifecycle and a maintenance that is well understood yeah so so Chris you know we've watched this is the seventh year we've had the cubit at Red Hat summit of course Red Hat itself has a large portfolio but not only Red Hat but you know the open source communities there are so many you know countless projects out there and you have a huge partner ecosystem you were just talking a bunch about DevOps you know I've got sitting at my desk you know one of those charts that shows you know DevOps tooling and it here's some of the platforms and here's all the various pieces and it's like you know I think there's only you know 50 or 80 different rules on that but how's Red Hat and the community overall how are you helping customers you know deal with this you know challeng world is you know we've got the paradox in place out there on it you know we understand that you know everybody's needs something a little bit different but how are we helping to give a little bit of structure and guidance in the the ever-changing world well I think it's one of the values of pulling content together if you think of a set of components being brought together as curation then we're helping curate the content and assembling pieces together it turns out is a is a lot of work especially when you want a lifecycle manage those components together so one basic thing that we're doing is bringing together an entire distribution of content so it's not just a single it's not just Linux it's not just kubernetes it's Linux and kubernetes engineered together with a set of supporting tooling for logging and monitoring and CI pipelines and all of that we bring together in a context that we opinionated or prescriptive what we also focus on is understanding that every Enterprise has a as its own legacy and history and set of investments that they've made so that process where we bring together an opinionated stack also needs to incorporate the flexibility so where can we plug in a CI pipeline that your your enterprise already has or where can we plug in your monitoring logging tools so that kind of flexibility allows us to bring together some best-of-breed components that we're finding in the open-source communities with flexibility to bring a whole set of ecosystem partners and if we go back to that open data have conversation there are a lot of data centric tools that we put in the open data have open source project we have commercial partners that can support things like say spark as a concrete example or tensorflow and so you know combine those those are open source projects but they're not coming from Red Hat they're coming from our ecosystem partners combine that all together into something that's engineered to work together and you're taking a lot of the friction out of the system so that developers can just move quickly all right so Chris give us a little bit of preview what what are people gonna see in the keynote and you know there's some people that are going to be watching this interview live but others will be efforts though I believe edge is one of the pieces we'll be touching on in the keynote but give us a little bit of what will we can expect well whatever you'll have to come to the keynote to really get the full full experience but what we're trying to to talk through is how data is really fundamentally changing business and if and we talk through that that's sort of story line starting with how it impacts red hats but you know at one level we're an enterprise we have our own business needs we use data to drive how we operate we also see that the platforms that we're building are really helpful for our customers to harness the value of data and change their own business and in the context of doing that we get to take a look at some ways where those business changes have industry-wide effects you know that we talk about things like 5g and artificial intelligence and where these things come together especially in edge computing really interesting space for these things all kind of converge and you know so kind of that that broad broad story line of data something that we use to change how we operate something that we build is from a platform point of view of our customers change how they operate and ultimately those changes have major impacts across the industry which is was which is pretty exciting pretty cool yeah I'm curious Chris you know I think back a few years ago I would have been interviewing you about like NFB and many of the themes it feels like we were talking about there we're really setting the table for the discussion we've been having for 5b is is that you know do you agree with that you know what would what's kind of the same and different from what we might have been looking at five years ago this it's very much and I love that question because it touches on something I think is really important it's very much an evolution and so in the tech world we talked so much about disruption and I think we overplay disruption I think what's interesting is technology evolution just consistently changing and moving forward gives rise at points in time to really interesting convergence of change that can be disruptive so as a concrete example NFV historically was about really improving the operational efficiencies of the service providers building networks and helping them move more rapidly so they could introduce new services most of that was focused on 4G most of that was focused on the core of the network today we're introducing 5g across the industry the discussions are moving technology wise into where do containers fit into this new world and the discussion at the network level is not only in the core but all the way out to the edge and then when you look at the edge where you have a portion of the network operating as software you have a platform like open ship that can also host enterprise or consumer facing education so this is really all of those early stages of NFV are culminating in this in a place today where the technology supports total software infrastructure for the network and utilizing that same cloud that you're running using to run the network to power enterprise or consumer facing applications that's pretty far away from where we were in the early days of NFB very much in evolution and then if you take it one step further and say orgy smart devices and cloud computing gave rise to a set of disruptive businesses ten years ago those businesses did not exist today we can't imagine life without them 5g device proliferations and not just smartphones but a whole set of new devices and edge computing are the ingredients that give rise to that same next wave of innovation where 10 years from now we can't really imagine what are the businesses that in 10 years we won't be able to imagine our lives without so we're at a really interesting inflection point and it's it's partially through this evolution of technology I think it's really exciting all right Chris last question for you there's always so many different pieces going on you know red hats really striking a nice balance there's not really as much of the habla and announcements but you know so much you know everything that does is built on open source so you know there's always things I run across it's like oh I need to you know look down the rabbit hole a little bit and what was that Farkas thing I think I'd heard that word before where all of the projects at the CN CF where you know Red Hat's involved in so you know in the last minute he or give us you know any areas where people said hey you know go google this go look up this you know project other cool things that you know you and your team are working on that you want to make sure to highlight well you you've mentioned one which is Korkis and not often time we talk about infrastructure I think it's a really cool project that is developer focus it's it's in the Java space and it's really bringing Java from an enterprise development platform into a modern language that can be used to build cloud native applications or even serverless functions I think serverless is a critical space so we've been talking for quite some time about all the ways serverless can be impactful we're in a place now where K native as a project is maturing and the the kind of world around it is getting more sophisticated so we have a serverless offer and as part of part of the open shift platform so you know making sure you're paying attention to what's happening in the K native space I think is is really important there's a whole new set of management challenges that will be in the security and a multi cluster space we're bringing those we're bringing technology to bear in this space and as RedHat we will bring those out as open source projects so looking for the open source communities around where you hear things like ECM or advanced container management or multi cluster managed environments which are the norm at this point you know those are some examples of things I think are important and then there's a world of stuff that's data focused there's all of the data science tools you know too many to really enumerate but that I think is an example where open-source is leading the space leading the industry in terms of where all where all those tools are developed and how the coverage and access developers have to data science tools all right well thank you so much Chris right always a pleasure to catch up with you and definitely looking forward to your your you know alright thank you all right lots more coverage check out the cube dotnet you can see all the interviews after they've gone out live they will be on demand all those projects Chris mentioned I've had deep dives on all of them so also hit up Chris square myself on Twitter if you have any follow up always love to hear the feedback I'm Stu minimun and as always thank you for watching the cube [Music]

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston it's the cube covering the IBM thing brought to you by IBM hi buddy we're back this is Dave Volante and you're watching the cubes coverage of the IBM think 20/20 digital event experience wall-to-wall coverage of course in the remote cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston Grendel Greg lot Co is here he's with Broadcom he's a senior vice president and general manager of the Broadcom mainframe division Greg great to see you thanks for coming on hey good seeing you too happy to be here hey let's talk Z you know I gotta say when Broadcom made a nearly nineteen billion dollar acquisition of ca many people myself included said huh I don't really get it but might as you start to see what's happening the massive CA install base and the cross selling opportunities that have come to Broadcom you start to connect the dots and say uh maybe this does make some sense but you know how does it how's it going how's the acquisition been it's been you know what two years since that that move yeah we're coming up on two years I think it kind of shocked the world right I mean there's a lot of value there and the customers that have been using the mainframe and running their core businesses for many many years they knew this right so Broadcom came in and said hey you know I don't think this is the cash cow that others maybe have been treating it as you know we absolutely believed with some investment that you could actually drive greater value to customers and you know what a novel concept great you know expand expense invest drive greater volley value and that would be the way you'd expand revenue and profit yeah I mean I think generally the mainframe market is misunderstood it obviously goes in cycles I did a report a couple months ago on really focusing on z15 extras last summer and how historically IBM performance overall as a company is really driven still by mainframe cycles because it still drags so much software and services and so we're in the in the midst of a z15 tailwind and and so of course in that the Cova changes everything but nonetheless it's a it's a good business IBM's a dominant player in that business customers it'll continue to buy mainframes because it just works it's too risky to rip them out people say oh I want to get rid of the mainframe no way customers are going to do that's running their business so it's just a it's a fabulous business you know if you have a play there and clearly da yeah and if you think about those cycles that's largely driven by the hardware right as each generation comes out and if you look at traditional pricing metrics that really look at using that capacity or even using full capacity that's what caused us equality with the software as well but you know there's a lot a lot of changes even in that space I mean with us with mainframe consumption licensing from from Broadcom with IBM doing tailor-fit pricing you know the idea that you can have that Headroom on the hardware and then pay as you go pay as you grow I think that actually will smooth out and remove some of that psychology from the software space and as you said correctly you look at the the kovat stuff going on I mean there's an awful lot of transactions going on online people are obviously checking their financials with the economics going on the shipping companies are booming with with what they have to do so that's actually driving transactions up as well to use that capacity that's in the boxes yeah and financial services is actually and really good know the the stocks have been hit but the liquidity and the banks is very very strong because of the 2009 crisis though the fiscal policy sort of you know dictated that or you know the public policy dictated that so so the band the banks are here we see huge consumers of mainframe one of the things that that IBM did years ago was it sort of embraced Linux was one of its first moves to open up the mainframe but it's much more than just Linux I wonder if you could talk about so your point of view on open meets mainframe yeah so open is way more than just Linux right I mean Linux Linux is good running around the mainframe I mean that's that's absolutely an open paradigm from the operating system but open is also about opening up the API is opening up the connectivity so that it's easier to interact with the platform and you know sometimes people think open is just about dealing with open source certainly we've made a lot of investments there we contributed the command line interphase and actually a little more than 50% of the original contribution to the Zoe Project under the OMP the open mainframe project so that was about allowing open source technologies that interact with distributed and cloud technologies to now interact with that mainframe so it's it's not just the open source technologies but opening up the API so you can then connect the cross technologies that are on the platform or off platform so what about the developer community I mean it's obviously a lot of talk in the industry about about DevOps how does DevOps fit into the mainframe world Oh what about innovations like agile and you know sort of beyond DevOps if you will can you comment on that yeah absolutely I mean you can bring all those paradigms all those capabilities to the mainframe now with opening up those api's so I mean we had a large European retail bank that is actually used the it bridge that we work with providing you know through Zoe to connect into endeavor so they could leverage all the investments they have made in that existing technology over the years but actually used the same kind of see ICD pipeline the same interaction that they do across distributed platforms and mainframe together and open up that experience across their development community with that really means is you're using the same concepts the same tools that they maybe became comfortable with in university or on different platforms to then interact with the mainframe and it's not that you're doing anything that you know takes away from core capabilities of the mainframe you're still leveraging the stability the really resiliency this the throughput the serviceability but you're pressing down on it and interacting with it just like you do with other platform so it's it's really cool and and that goes beyond Linux right Fisher you're interacting with capabilities and technologies that are on the mainframe and z/os environment yeah in the end the hardened security as well as another you know key absolutely let's talk about cloud where does weird a lot of people talk about cloud cloud first multi cloud where does the mainframe fit in the cloud world so there's a lot of definitions of cloud out there right I mean people will talk about private cloud public cloud hybrid cloud across multiple private clouds they'll talk about you know this multi cloud we we actually talk about it a little differently we think about the customers cloud environment you know our our institution that we're dealing with say it's a financial institution to their end customers their cloud is however you interact and you think about it if you're if you're checking an account balance if you're depositing in a check if you're doing any of these interactions you're probably picking up a mobile device or a PC you're dealing with an edge server you're going back into distributed servers and you're eventually interacting with the mainframe and then that's got to come all the way back out to you that is our customers cloud so we talk about their cloud environment and you have to think about this paradigm of allowing the mainframe to connect through and to all of that while you hit it preserving the security so we think of cloud as being much more expansive and the mainframe is an integral part of that absolutely yeah I've seen some of your your discussions where you've talked about it sort of laid out look you know the mainframe sits behind all this other infrastructure that you know ultimately the consumer on his or her mobile phone you know it goes through a gateway it goes to you know some kind of site to buy something you know ends up ultimately doing a transaction and in that transaction you want to be you know secure you want it to be accurate and then how do how does that happen the majority of the world's transactions are you know running on some kind of you know IBM mainframe somewhere in some way touches that transaction so it's a you know as the world gets more complex that that mainframe is that I called it sort of the hardened you know sort of back-end and that has to evolve to be able to adapt to the changes at the front end and that's really kind of what's happening whether it's cloud whether it's mobile whether it's you know Linux and other open source so it's right it's it's fabulous that the mainframe has you know IO rates and throughput that no other platform and match but if you can't connect that to the transactions that the customer is driving to it then you're not leveraging the value right so you really have to think about it from a perspective of how do you open up everything you possibly can on the mainframe while preserving that theory I want to end with just talking about the the Broadcom portfolio when you hit the the Broadcom mainframe site it's it's actually quite mind-boggling the dozens and dozens of services and software capabilities that you provide how would you describe that that portfolio and what do you see is the vision for that portfolio going forward yeah so when people normally say portfolio they're thinking software products and we have hundreds of software products but we're looking at our portfolio as more than just the software sometimes people talk about hey let me just talk to you about my latest and greatest product one of the things we were really afforded the opportunity to do with Broadcom acquiring us was to reinvest to double down on core products that customers have had for many years and we know that they want to be able to count on for many years to come but the other really important thing we believe about driving value to our customers was those offerings and capabilities that you put around that you know think about the idea of if you want to migrate off of a competitive product or if you want to adopt an additional product that have the ability to tie these together often in our customer shops they don't have all the skills that they need or they just don't have the capacity to do it so we've been investing in partnership you know we kept our services business from at least that resources the people from CA we rolled them directly into the division and we're investing them in true partnership working side-by-side with our customers to help them deploy these capabilities get up and running and be successful and and we believe that's the the value of a true partnership to invest side-by-side to have them be successful with the software and their capabilities and their operation well like I said I caught a lot of people myself included by surprised that acquisition it was a big number but you can see it you know the outcomes performance post you know the July 2018 acquisition done quite well obviously co vid is affected you know much of the market but seems to be paying off Greg thanks so much for coming to the Kuban sharing your insights and best of luck going forward stay safe pleasure being here everybody you yourself and everybody out there be safe be well take care and thank you for everybody for watching this is the cubes coverage of the IBM think 20/20 digital event experience we right back right after this short break you're watching the cube [Music]