(gentle music) >> Good afternoon, cloud community and welcome back to fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. We are at AWS re:Invent. It's our fourth day, it's in the afternoon. We've got two more segments left. This is a serious marathon, but it's so exciting, it's kept my brain super curious. I'm Savannah Peterson, joined by Paul Gillan today. Paul- >> Hello Savannah. >> Are you as excited about how much we've learned this week as I am? >> I am. It's just taking, my mind is just bursting with all the new information I've absorbed over the last three days. Amazing talking to all these smart people. >> It has really been so cool. >> And learning about all the permutations that we to think about cloud but there are so many businesses that have been built around the cloud, around making the cloud easier to use, supporting cloud as our next guest can talk about, that there's this whole ecosystem element that we don't hear about so much, but it's very much the foundation of the people who are here. >> Speaking of ecosystem, our next guest, please welcome Garrett to the show. Runs Ecosystem for Console Connect. How you doing Eric? >> I'm doing very well. >> Savannah: Garrett, sorry. Excuse me. >> No worries. >> Few names on the show today. >> Garrett: I'm sure. >> I do know your name, my mouth just doesn't want to, just doesn't want to participate today. Have you had a great show so far? >> It's been fantastic. You know, the AWS re:Invent show has always been a fantastic event, so. >> You're a veteran. You're also a CUBE alumni, which is great. >> Yes. Thank you for having me back. Thank you for your time. I most appreciated it. >> Yeah. We love having you. It's going to be great. We'll, we'll try and do even better each time we have you on the show. So just in case those listening are unfamiliar with Console Connect, give us the pitch. >> Okay, so Console Connect is our software defined interconnect platform. We also provide what we call network as a service. This allows our customers and partners to take advantage of our global private network on a pay as you go basis. Scalable and flexible. When you're not using the service, you can turn it off. So you only pay as you go. >> What a novel idea. >> Yes, yes. In the past you would have to have a year or multi-year contract. So we're making our services match cloud offerings around the world. The platform itself is in more than a thousand data centers all around the globe. >> Savannah: Just a couple. >> Yes, just a few. We have about 45 terabits of network behind it. It's all on our private network, so none of it's accessible via the public internet and we have a meeting place which allows our existing customers and partners to reach out across the platform and share services. So one customer needs to subscribe to another customer services, they can do so right across the platform on a pay as to go basis. So it's been very exciting for us. It's been very fast, it seems to me, for the past five or six years that we've had the service. >> At what point in their cloud journey do customers typically realize they need a service like yours? If the bandwidth they're getting, their native bandwidth they're getting is insufficient. >> Yeah, and I think that's a great question. I think the customers themselves have seen a serious disconnect between their direct connections to the cloud service providers where the cloud service providers are billing by the minute. And a traditional telecommunications connection is built by the year or multi years and then you really lose control over your cloud connection when you forget about it, right? Because service is always up. The connection's always up. >> Yeah. >> And a lot of individuals in a company may have access to the cloud, that cloud service, provider service. And next thing you know, you have a runaway group of services that are running that you're paying for and you don't really realize it 'cause the connection's up, you've already paid the connection the cloud service is up, you've already paid for it. >> So how do businesses get better control over that spend or how do you help them? >> Yeah, so how we help them is our service is able to be turned off when it's not in use. So in the event that you don't need the service over a weekend or over a month, you can just turn it off and you're not paying for that. >> It sounds so simple but it actually is kind of revolutionary in the industry which is why I keep coming back to it. It's great. So we've heard a lot about hybrid cloud, multicloud. How is this increasing the complexity for customers? >> Well I think the complexity for customers has increased due to the fact that you have a multicloud requirement or you have multiple teams accessing your cloud service provider and there's no one really managing it from a central perspective. >> Savannah: They can definitely get siloed really easy. >> Yeah, and then it runs away from you and the next thing you know, you start to look at the monthly bills. But generally that happens on an annual basis. If any companies like mine, you're doing your annual reconciliation of your bills and that's when you notice something's not right. >> Yeah, definitely. I can actually see a Slack message I got once, multiple times probably. Is anyone using this service? Why does it cost us that? That's exactly what you're talking about. >> Do you integrate with the Amazon Management Console or is it a separate service? >> It's, our service is a separate service. We are APId in with AWS. You do have a single console from our platform to manage your connections to the cloud. And then once you are connected in, you would still need to use the AWS console to manage your service. They're very, let's just say no one is offering a remote console third party console yet for AWS or any other cloud service for that matter. >> How about for hybrid cloud is obviously the way, you know, the way the industry is going. How do you enable companies to manage their hybrid cloud environments more intelligently? >> Yeah, and that's another great question. We allow that, you know, we're a global company. We have global access around the world. It includes not only traditional telecommunication services but also includes satellite service as well as 5G and LTE capability to the platform. So in the event that someone is in a hyper cloud situation, they have a lot of capability to enable their services. >> You talked about network as a service, and I, we haven't had a chance to dig into it. So tell me a little bit more. How does, how can this help reduce egress charges? How, are people excited when they hear network as a service? Where are we off at on that hype curve? >> Yeah, I think it's low on the excitement scale. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> You know, network has become somewhat of a commodity in the world, like electricity or water, you know, for the most of the world. And so network as a service, what it has enabled is it has enabled the customers more control over what they're doing. 'Cause in the past, you would need weeks, if not months to get services installed. And then if you needed to make a change to that service to increase it or decrease it in accordance to your requirements, that might take a couple of days at the soonest and you know, the Console Connect platform now changed that down to a few minutes. So within a few minutes, you can enable services, turn it up, turn it down, scale up, scale down. >> Savannah: Talk about time to value. >> There's no equipment installation required? >> No, it is our private network and so there must be a direct connection to it. It's not available over the public internet. Generally, a customer will connect to us via a cross connect at a data center or they can bring in a local loop. Or our existing customers, we just flip a little switch, so to speak, software wise, and we give them access to the platform from their existing services. >> Do you work with co-location interconnects as well? >> Exactly, yes. And in fact, you can purchase those services across our platform with a lot of the co-location service providers. >> So if I'm already using a co-lo, I can deploy your service directly from that co-lo. >> Yes. Yes. >> That's very convenient. >> That is very convenient. (laughs) >> You also mentioned the ability interconnect between customers. So your customers can actually connect to each other and conduct transactions or integrate their applications. Talk about how that works. >> Yeah, so for instance, let's say you are a customer that's taking advantage of our platform and you find your network is under a DDoS attack. You can go into our meeting place, connect to one of our cloud service providers who specializes in DDoS mitigation, spin up a connection to them within a few minutes, and immediately, you can start taking care of your DDoS problem. And once it's taken care of, you turn it down. Now those types of services that are subscription based are via API into our platform so we can settle the bill for our customer on behalf of that service provider or the service provider themselves can bill that customer depending on how they want to set it up. So it's very flexible. >> It's really clever, too. I mean, especially in an instance like you just mentioned in that example, that's a moment of panic and high stress and high tension. The last thing you want to be thinking about is what's the right service provider? How quickly can I get this up and running? If I can just couple clicks, couple lines of code perhaps, or even just through the portal, be able to do it, it's pretty powerful. You mentioned that Console Connect, and I want to talk about this 'cause it's clear you care about the user experience, the community and Console Connect came out of LinkedIn DNA and you mentioned there's a social component to the platform as well. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? >> Yes, thank you for that. Yeah, so you can, as a customer or a partner, you can market directly to others on the platform using our meeting place. And you have the ability to reach out directly to people across the platform, send them a message. You have the ability to post articles, blog in one of our sections. And then the other one, you can actually go in and see all the latest activity in the platform. You can see who's the newest companies to join Console Connect. >> Savannah: Oh wow, cool. >> How do I reach out to them? And then that gives you the ability to begin either marketing across the platform or direct marketing to someone or directly just reach out and connect with them and say hey, we want to set a bilateral partnership with you. You know, how do we do that? So it's very flexible. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> Can I connect my systems to others? So if I want to plug into their eCommerce system so I can fulfill orders taken through their eCommerce system, can I enable that kind of connection? >> Oh, we're not there yet. It is coming, but we're just not there yet. >> What are the complexities? >> A lot of that is a trust issue. >> Yeah. >> You know, when you're dealing with across the globe, there are regulations in every location that must be adhered to. A lot of that is security and privacy related. And we must make sure that we are adhering to all the local regulations wherever we are. >> So it's not the technology, it's a problem, really. It's the- >> It's a regulatory issue, yeah. So the technology is there and I would say that the rest is following, it's just, it's slow when you're dealing with permits and with compliance. >> I also want to ask you, our notes here mention egress charges, which are a niggling pain point for a lot of customers. They have to pay to get their data of the cloud. How do you help with that problem? >> So how we help with this is first, we get a discount from our partners, our cloud partners, including AWS, and we pass that on to the customers. The other way is you have a full visibility of which connections you have live into those partners and you can manage that much easier through the single, I would say view. Of all of your connections. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> You can see all of your cloud connections right in the one view. And then you can do a little more digging and say are we using these, you know? Because a lot of times, you have projects that spin up and then someone forgets to spin them back down. So this helps give you that single view. But again, we get the discount that we are happy to pass on as well. >> Which is a win-win for everyone. I've using a tab analogy all show, we all we want it in one place, one tab, not all the tabs. >> Yes. I think network management and service management in any enterprise or partnership company is a real drain on resources. >> Oh yeah. And it's a waste of money. >> Garrett: Yeah. And if you're not managing correctly, yeah, you get the thing on the money. >> Are you an alternative to the direct connect services from the major cloud providers or are you a compliment to them? >> We're not competing with them, we're partnered. And so we don't see ourselves as an alternative. A lot of times, our customers come to us and they want to direct connect in a location where perhaps AWS isn't. >> Paul: Doesn't have a point of presence. >> Exactly. Right. We give them that flexibility of, yes you can directly connect here. And then the other approach that we like to take is we like to give our customers the choice of not only data center, but also region. So a lot of times egress charges are can be calculated across regions as well and that can really add up for our customer. Whereas if you have multiple egress locations, you're not transferring data across a region on the AWS platform or another cloud service platform. You can egress at that location and then take it across your own network or take it across our network and then your egress charges will be more reasonable. >> That's, it's convenient. Smart! You're making people's jobs optimized and easier as well as their stack and all the tools that they're using. It's fantastic. All right Garrett, we've got a new challenge here on theCUBE at re:Invent. >> Garrett: All right. >> It's probably different from the last time you were on theCUBE. We're looking for your 30 second hot take, your thought leadership moment. What's the biggest theme coming out of the show or for you as we look into 2023? >> Well, for in 30 seconds- >> Savannah: Yeah, casual, right? >> No pressure. >> Savannah: No big deal. >> No, so with Console Connect, you know, we are around the globe. I know that a lot of companies at AWS are, some are regional, some are global. And we have the ability to cover both. We can do either regional or global or a hybrid of those. We also have a hybrid approach on different types of services. And so the flexibility, scalability, reliability, and the lowered cost of egress with Console Connect is a win all around. You can't lose with it. >> I love it. You're meeting customers where they are. Garrett, it was fantastic to have you back on theCUBE. We look forward to your third cameo. >> Thank you very much. I appreciate your time. Thank you for having Console Connect on. >> Hey, absolutely. We look forward to continuing to watch and hopefully tell that story as well. And thank all of you for tuning in to day four of AWS's re:Invent coverage in Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm starting to forget my own name. I am with Paul Gilland. I'm Savannah Peterson. This is theCUBE. We are the leading source for high tech coverage. (gentle music)

>>Welcome back to the Cube, as a continued coverage here from AWS Reinvent 22. It's day three of our coverage here at the Venetian in Las Vegas, and we're part of the AWS Global Startup Showcase. With me to talk about what Kong's to in that regard is Marco Palladino, who's the, the CTO and the co-founder of Con Marco. Good >>To see you. Well, thanks for having me >>Here. Yeah, I was gonna say, by the way, I, I, you've got a beautiful exhibit down on the show floor. How's the week been for you so far as an exhibitor here? >>It's been very busy. You know, to this year we made a big investment at the WS reinvent. You know, I think this is one of the best conferences in the industry. There is technology developers, but it's also business oriented. So you can learn about all the business outcomes that our, you know, customers or, you know, people are trying to make when, when adopting these new technologies. So it's very good so far. >>Good, good, good to hear. Alright, so in your world, the API world, you know, it used to be we had this, you know, giant elephant. Now we're cutting down the little pieces, right? That's right. We're all going micro now these days. That's right. Talk about that trend a little bit, what you're seeing, and we'll jump in a little deeper as to how you're addressing that. >>Well, I think the industry learned a long time ago that running large code bases is actually quite problematic when it comes to scaling the organization and capturing new opportunities. And so, you know, we're transitioning to microservices because we want to get more opportunities in our business. We want to be able to create new products, fasters, we want to be able to leverage existing services or data that we have built, like an assembly line of software, you know, picking up APIs that other developers are building, and then assemble them together to create new experiences or new products, enter new markets. And so microservices are fantastic for that, except microservices. They also introduce significant concerns on the networking layer, on the API layer. And so this is where Kong specializes by providing API infrastructure to our customers. >>Right. So more about the problems, more about the challenges there, because you're right, it, opportunities always create, you know, big upside and, and I, I don't wanna say downside, but they do introduce new complexities. >>That's right. And introducing new complexity. It's a little bit the biggest enemy of any large organization, right? We want to reduce complexity, we want to move faster, we want to be more agile, and, and we need an API vision to be able to do that. Our teams, you know, I'm speaking with customers here at Reinvent, they're telling me that in the next five years, the organization is going to be creating more APIs than all the APIs they've created up until now. Right? So how do you >>Support, that's a mind boggling number, right? >>It's mind boggling. Yeah, exactly. How do you support that type of growth? And things have been moving so fast. I feel like there is a big dilemma in, you know, with certain organizations where, you know, we have not taught a long term strategy for APIs, whereas we do have a long term strategy for our business, but APIs are running the business. We must have a long term strategy for our APIs, otherwise we're not gonna be able to execute. And that's a big dilemma right now. Yeah. >>So, so how do we get the horse back in front of the cart then? Because it's like you said, it's almost as if we've, we're, we're reprioritizing, you know, incorrectly or inaccurately, right? You're, you're getting a little bit ahead of ourselves. >>Well, so, you know, whenever we have a long-term strategy for pretty much anything in the organization, right? We know what we want to do. We know the outcome that we want to achieve. We work backwards to, you know, determine what are the steps that are gonna bring us there. And, and the responsibility for thinking long term in, in every organization, including for APIs at the end of the day, always falls on the leaders and the should on the shoulders of the leadership and, and to see executives of the organization, right? And so we're seeing, you know, look at aws by the way. Look at Amazon. This conference would not have been possible without a very strong API vision from Amazon. And the CEO himself, Jeff Bezos, everybody talks about wanting to become an API first organization. And Amazon did that with the famous Jeff Bezos mandate today, aws, it's a hundred billion revenue for Amazon. You see, Amazon was not the first organization with, with an e-commerce, but if it was the first one that married a very strong e-commerce business execution with a very strong API vision, and here we are. >>So yeah, here we are putting you squarely in, in, in a pretty good position, right? In terms of what you're offering to the marketplace who has this high demand, you see this trend starting to explode. The hockey sticks headed up a little bit, right? You know, how are you answering that call specifically at how, how are you looking at your client's needs and, and trying to address what they need and when they need it, and how they need it. Because everybody's in a kind of a different place right now. >>Right? That's exactly right. And so you have multiple teams at different stages of their journey, right? With technology, some of them are still working on legacy, some of them are moving to the cloud. Yep. Some of them are working in containers and in microservices and Kubernetes. And so how do you, how do we provide an API vision that can fulfill the needs of the entire organization in such a way that we reduce that type of fragmentation and we don't introduce too much complexity? Well, so at con, we do it by essentially splitting the API platform in three different components. Okay. One is API management. When, whenever we want to expose APIs internally or to an ecosystem of partners, right? Or to mobile, DRA is a service mesh. You know, as we're splitting these microservices into smaller parts, we have a lot of connectivity, all, you know, across all the services that the teams are building that we need to, to manage. >>You know, the network is unreliable. It's by default, not secure, not observable. There is nothing that that works in there. And so how do we make that network reliable without asking our teams to go and build these cross-cut concerns whenever they create a new service. And so we need a service match for that, right? And then finally, we could have the best AP infrastructure in the world, millions of APIs and millions of microservices. Everything is working great. And with no API consumption, all of that would be useless. The value of our APIs and the value of our infrastructure is being driven by the consumption that we're able to drive to all of these APIs. And so there is a whole area of API productivity and discovery and design and testing and mocking that enables the application teams to be successful with APIs, even when they do have a, the proper API infrastructure in place that's made of meshes and management products and so on and so forth. Right. >>Can you gimme some examples? I mean, at least with people that you've been working with in terms of addressing maybe unique needs. Cuz again, as you've addressed, journeys are in different stages now. Some people are on level one, some people are on level five. So maybe just a couple of examples Yeah. Of clients with whom you've been working. Yeah, >>So listen, I I was talking with many organizations here at AWS Reinvent that are of course trying to migrate to the cloud. That's a very common common transformation that pretty much everybody's doing in the world. And, and how do you transition to the cloud by de-risking the migration while at the same time being able to get all the benefits of, of running in the cloud? Well, we think that, you know, we can do that in two, two ways. One, by containerizing our workloads so that we can make them portable. But then we also need to lift and shift the API connectivity in such a way that we can determine how much traffic goes to the legacy and how much traffic goes to the new cloud infrastructure. And by doing that, we're able to deal with some of these transformations that can be quite complex. And then finally, API infrastructure must support every team in the organization. >>And so being able to run on a single cloud, multi-cloud, single cluster, multi cluster VMs containers, that's important and essential because we want the entire organization to be on board. Because whenever we do not do that, then the developers will make short term decisions that are not going to be fitting into the organizational outcomes that we want to achieve. And we look at any outcome that your organization wants to achieve the cloud transformation, improving customer retention, creating new products, being more agile. At the end of the day, there is an API that's powering that outcome. >>Right? Right. Well, and, and there's always a security component, right? That you have to be concerned about. So how are you raising that specter with your clients to make them aware? Because sometimes it, I wouldn't say it's an afterthought, but sometimes it's not the first thought. And, and obviously with APIs and with their integral place, you know, in, in the system now security's gotta be included in that, right? >>API security is perhaps the biggest, biggest request that we're hearing from customers. You know, 83% of the world's internet traffic at the end of the day runs on APIs, right? That's a lot of traffic. As a matter of fact, APIs are the first attack vector for any, you know, malicious store party. Whenever there is a breach, APIs must be secured. And we can secure APIs on different layers of our infrastructure. We can secure APIs at the L four mesh layer by implementing zero trust security, for example, encrypting all the traffic, assigning an identity to every service, removing the concept of trust from our systems because trust is exploitable, right? And so we need to remove the cut zero trust, remove the concept of trust, and then once we have that underlying networking that's being secure and encrypted, we want to secure access to our APIs. >>And so this is the typical authentication, authorization concerns. You know, we can use patterns like op, op or opa open policy agent to create a security layer that does not rely on the team's writing code every time they're creating a new service. But the infrastructure is enforcing the type of layer. So for example, last week I was in Sweden, as a matter of fact speaking with the largest bank in Sweden while our customers, and they were telling us that they are implementing GDPR validation in the service mesh on the OPPA layer across every service that anybody's building. Why? Well, because you can embed the GDPR settings of the consumer into a claim in a gel token, and then you can use OPPA to validate in a blanket way that Jo Token across every service in the mesh, developers don't have to do that. It just comes out of the box like that. And then finally, so networking, security, API security for access and, and management of those APIs. And then finally we have deep inspection of our API traffic. And here you will see more exotic solutions for API security, where we essentially take a subset of our API traffic and we try to inspect it to see if there is anybody doing anything that they shouldn't be doing and, and perhaps block them or, you know, raise, raise, raise the flag, so to speak. >>Well, the answer is probably yes, they are. Somebody's trying to, somebody's trying to, yeah, you're trying to block 'em out. Before I let you go, you've had some announcements leading up here to the show that's just to hit a few of those highlights, if you would. >>Well, you know, Kong is an organization that you know, is very proud of the technology that we create. Of course, we started with a, with the API gateway Con Gateway, which was our first product, the most adopted gateway in the world. But then we've expanded our platform with service mesh. We just announced D B P F support in the service mesh. For example, we made our con gateway, which was already one of the fastest gateway, if not the fastest gateway out there, 30% faster with Con Gateway 3.0. We have shipped an official con operator for Kubernetes, both community and enterprise. And then finally we're doubling down on insomnia, insomnia's, our API productivity application that essentially connects the developers with the APIs that are creating and allows them to create a discovery mechanism for testing, mocking the bagging, those APIs, all of this, we of course ship it OnPrem, but then also on the cloud. And you know, in a cloud conference right now, of course, cloud, right? Right. Is a very important part of our corporate strategy. And our customers are asking us that. Why? Because they don't wanna manage the software, they want the API platform, they don't, don't wanna manage it. >>Well, no, nobody does. And there are a few stragglers, >>A few, a few. And for them there is the on-prem >>Platform. Fine, let 'em go. Right? Exactly. But if you wanna make it a little quick and dirty, hand it off, right? Oh, >>That's exactly right. Yes. >>Let Con do the heavy lifting for you. Hey Marco, thanks for the time. Yeah, thank you so much. We appreciate, and again, congratulations on what appears to be a pretty good show for you guys. Yeah, thank you. Well done. All right, we continue our discussions here at aws. Reinvent 22. You're watching the Cube, the leader in high tech coverage. >>Okay.

>>Okay. And welcome back to the cubes live coverage here in San Francisco, California for 80 us summit 2022 Amazon web services summit 2020 New York city is coming up in the summer will be there. Check us out the cube.net. Our next guest here is Jim long. The CEO of dig also known as local. BTV a very interesting AWS customer doing some really progressive things around video and, uh, challenging the status quo in code cutting and all kinds of broadcast models. Jim, welcome to the cube. Great to see you. >>Thank you, John. Great to be here. Okay. >>So first of all, before we get into some of the disrupt option, take a minute to explain what is dig and local BTV. >>Uh, dig is all about, uh, providing, uh, edge video networking for broadcast television, basically modernizing local television and hopefully extending it to hyper local content like high schools and community government and community channels and things like that. So essentially free bringing, using the internet as an antenna to bring broadcast television to your phone, your laptop you're connected TVs. >>So if I understand it correctly, if I UN and I look at the, the materials of your site, you basically go into each market, Metro areas like New York Philly bay area, grab the tee signal out of the air. >>Yep. >>Local TV, and then open that up to everyone. Who's got, um, an >>Correct. And, uh, what, we've, where we're essentially building a hybrid network with AWS. Uh, I like to say we got all the smart and account stuff, you know, in the cloud at AWS. And we have all the dumb, fast stuff in the actual TV market. We have servers and transcoding there we work with, uh, of course, um, uh, AWS on that centrally as well. But basically that hybrid cloud allows us to be the fastest simplest and lowest cost way to get a local video. Any type could be an antenna or an IP stream to a local house. So we're, so are the local pickup and delivery people. We're not building a brand, we're not building content. We're delivering the local content to the local views. You >>Like the pipes. >>We are, we're essentially an infrastructure company. Um, we're right at that wonderful intersection of the, uh, the infrastructure and the content where I always like to play. >>I like, I love the store. I think the cost of that nature, how you're using Amazon, it's really impressive. Um, what are some of the cool things you're doing on AWS that you think's notable? >>Well, of course the, the standard issue stuff where you want to store all your data in the cloud. Right? So we, uh, and we use a quick site to, to get to that. And obviously we're using S3 and we're using media tailor, which we really like, which is cuz we first actual company on the planet. I believe that's inserting digital ads, impression based ads into local broadcast streams. So that's, that's fun because the advertisers, they like the fact that they could still do traditional TV buys and they could spice it up with digital impressions based, but ads on us. Yeah. And, and we're adding to it a real fun thing called clip it, which is user clipping. It's an app that's been running on AWS for years. It's had over half a million plays in social media. Yeah. We're combining those together and, and AWS makes it very simple to do that. >>Well, I've been using your app on my Firestick and uh, download local BTV on the app store. Um, I gotta say the calendar's awesome. And the performance is 10 times better than, than some of the other streaming apps because the other performance they crash all the time. The calendar's weird. So congratulations. Clearly you're running the cloud technology. I gotta ask you what's going on in the market? Netflix missed their earnings. The stock was down big time. Um, obviously competition what's up going on with Netflix? >>Well, what's, it's a big shift. >>What does it mean for the streaming market? >>Well, what it means is, is, is a consumer choice. It's really the golden age of consumer choice. Uh, originally back when I was a kid, it was all antenna TV. We didn't even have DBRS right. And then, uh, the cable companies and the satellite companies, the phone companies came in and took over and all of a sudden everyone started paying for TV for just linear TV. Right? And then the next thing, you know, streaming comes around, uh, Netflix shows up for, for VOD or, or SVOD, they call it cuz it's payt TV and uh, and the whole, uh, that ecosystem starts to melt down. And now you have a consumer choice market where you can pay, pay for VAD or pay for, for linear. And everyone does linear and everyone does VAD or you can use free TV. Now we correctly guessed that free TV was gonna have a huge comeback. You know, know what is it about free even obviously gen Z smarter than us boomers. They love free too. Uh, targeted advertising makes the ads less, uh, painful or less of a distraction. Uh, so we knew that free ad supported TV was gonna happen. Lots of stuff happened. And then, then the, uh, major media companies started doing their own subscription apps. Right? They're all cool. >>We like paramount plus >>Paramount plus Disney pluses, PN peacock, uh, time Warner's doing something. I mean, it's all cool, but you know, people only have so much of a big pocketbook. So what it's doing is pay TV has now become much more complicated, but also you, you know, you gotta trade off. So you saw it with Netflix, right? Yeah. Netflix is suffering from there's too much pay TV. So where are you gonna put your money on Comcast? On YouTube TV paramount plus Netflix. >>Yeah. I mean, I love the free thing. I gotta bring up something. I wanna get your reaction to a company called low cast went under, they got sued out of their deal. They were the free TV. Are you guys have issues like them? What's the cast most people don't know got was, was >>Doing same. So we started before low cast and we're uh, what we would call a permissions based system, legal system. The broadcast Mar industry, uh, is, uh, is the wild wild west. I mean, I like to say antenna TV is a direct to consumer. The antenna is a direct to consumer device and it's controlled by the channel. People it's not controlled by a platform like Comcast, right? It's not controlled by a stick. >>When you say channel, do you mean like CBS or >>Yeah, CBS or the local Korean religious cooking channel or, uh, Spanish channels or local independent to television, which is really a national treasure for us. The United States really should be making sure that local content, local channels, uh, do well local businesses, you know, with targeted advertising, Janes nail salon can, can now advertise just in San Jose and not the entire San Francisco TV market. Um, so you ha you have, have all that going on and we recognize, you know, that, that local content, but you have to have permission from the channel stuff. It's not easy because you got channels on stations. You have syndicators, it's hard to keep track of. And sometimes you, you, uh, you, you know, you have to shift things around, but, uh, low cast, uh, like another kind before it just went hog wild, illegal, trying to use a loophole, uh, didn't quite work out for 'em and, uh, >>You see, they have put out of business by the networks, the names, the big names. Yes. Content people, >>Correct. I mean the big, the big guys, but I mean, because they weren't following the rules, um, >>The rules, meaning license, the content, right. >>Well correct. Or yes, >>Basically they, they were stealing the content in the eyes of the, >>Well, there is, there is, it is a little of, a bit of a gray area between the FCC and the copyright laws that Congress made. So, um, there are people certainly out there that think there is a path there, low cast, didn't find it. We're not trying to find it. Uh, we just want to get all the free TV, uh, the bottom line. And you've seen fast channels explode recently, Pluto, uh, Samsung TV. >>And what does that all mean? >>Well, what it means is people love free TV and the best free TV out there is your local TV. So putting that on the internet and those comp, but the media companies, they have trouble with this new stuff. What's, >>What's your >>They're overthinking it. What's >>Some of this CBS, NBC, all these big guys. >>Well, those guys have a little less trouble than the people that actually, uh, they're affiliates, right? So there's 210 TV markets and the, uh, your major networks, you know, they have their own stations. And in a bit, you know, in about 39% of the population, which is about 15 to 20, is it >>Cultural or is a system system problem? >>No, it's a, it's a problem of all the, the media companies are just having trouble moving towards the new technology and, and they're, I think they're siloing it. >>So why not? You gonna let 'em die. Are you trying to do deals with em? >>Oh no, no, absolutely. For us, if we don't make money, unless stations make money, we want local TV to, to flourish. It is local TV is Neilson, just report yesterday, you know, uh, that, uh, local TV is growing. We're taking advantage of that. And I think the station groups are having a little trouble realizing that they have the original, fast channels before Pluto, before Tubi did it in movies. And, and, and what >>Are people understanding in the, in the industry? I know NA's coming up a show. Yeah, >>That's right. >>National associated of broadcasters. What's going on in that industry right now. And you're, if you get to put it down the top three problems that are opportunities to be solved, what would they be? >>Well, I think, you know, I think the, the, the, the last, the, the best one that's left is what we're doing. I have to say it, uh, I think it's worth billions. >>You free TV over the air free and stream >>O TV. Oh yeah. Over the air TV that also works with the internet, right. Public internet connected to public television stations so that everybody, including homeless people, et cetera, that, you know, they don't have a TV, they don't have an antenna, they can't afford comp. They got an >>IPhone though. >>They an iPhone. For sure. And, and so it's, it's, uh, it's a wonderful thing. It's, you know, our national broadcasting and I don't think the station groups or the major networks are taking advantage of it they're as much as they should. Yeah. And, and I don't think, you know, obviously NBC and CBS with their new apps, they're sort of done with that. They did mergers, they got, they got the virtual pay guys. I mean, YouTube TV off the ground, the only thing left is suck another shitload of good, uh, eyeballs and, and advertising. >>Well, I mean, yeah, I think that, that, and what you said earlier around subscription fatigue, I mean, nobody wants to have 20 subscriptions. >>Well, that brings up a whole new other war. That's going on that, thank goodness. We're not part of it's the platforms versus the cable companies. Right. Versus whatever. Right. Everyone's trying to be your open garden or your closed garden. They're trying to get your subscriptions in bundle self bundling it's. But I mean, it's wonderful for consumers, if you can navigate through it. Uh, we wanna, we think we'll have one of the gems in any of that everyone's want local TV. And so we'll supply that we're already doing that. We're supplying it to a couple companies, uh, free cast as a company, uh, app, a universal streaming, you know, manager, your all, all your, uh, streaming, a streaming aggregation, put your paid stuff in, put your free stuff in. They do that. And, and as, as does Roku try trying to do that fire TV, Xfinity's trying to do it. So it's all, it's a new war for the platform and hopefully we'll be on everyone. >>Well, you've been in this industry for a long time, you know, the streaming market, you know, the TV market. Um, so it's, it's good. I think it's a new battle, the shift's happening. Um, what should people know about dig local? BTV what are some of your goals for the next year or two? What are you trying to do? >>Well, what we're really trying to do is make sure that local, uh, local television thrives so that it can support wider communities. It could support hyper local content. So if you're, if you're, and we love the old paradigm and channel change, right? Forget, you know, every other app has all these boxes going by on different rows and stuff. And, and yeah, you can search and find stuff, but there's nothing like just changing channels, whether a commercial's on or, or you, you wanna see what else is on. You know, you're gonna go from local television and maybe all of a sudden, you'll see the local high school play over on another part of the, of the spectrum. And, and what we're trying to do is get those communities together. And the local high school people come over and find the local, you know, uh, Spanish, uh, Nova channel or something like that. >>So local is the new hot. >>It is. Absolutely. And by the way, it's where this high CPMs are gonna go. And the more targeted you get >>Ad revenue, >>I mean, that's for us is, is, is our number one, re we have a number of revenue streams, but targeted ads are really great for local, right? And, and so we're, we're gonna make an announce. We've >>Lost that we've lost that local, I've seen local things that local Palo Alto paper, for instance, just shut down this local sports high school coverage, our youth sports, because they don't budget, right? There's no TV community channels, like some Comcast throwaway channel. Um, we lost, we, we lo we're losing >>Local. No, I think that's a real national shame. And so I think if we can strengthen local television, I think it'll strengthen all local media. So we expect to help local radio and local newspapers. That's a bigger part of the vision. Uh, but I it's gonna happen. There's >>An education angle here too. >>There is an education angle because the bottom line is you can use linear television as a way to augment. Uh, we have a really exciting project going on in New York, uh, uh, with, uh, some of the housing, uh, projects, uh, in Harlem and, and, and the Bronx, uh, their I idea is to have the, the homework channel and they can, and literally when you have a, and both swiping and everything you can have, I mean, literally you can have a hundred schools that, that have things well, >>We know zoom schooling sucks. I mean, that didn't work. So I think you're gonna see a lot of augmentation, right. >>Amazon. >>I was just talking to some people here, AI training, machine learning, training, all here could be online in linear format. >>Yeah. And exactly. And then I think about the linear format is it's discovery television, and you can also, um, you know, you can also record it. Yeah. Right. If you see a program and you want to record it, you sit >>Record. So final minute we have left. I want to just get your thoughts on this one thing and, and ask your question. Are you looking for content? Are you, I outreach at the content providers who, >>Well, we're, we're PRI our primary mission is to get more channel local channels on which really means station groups and independence. We have a number, I mean, basically 50% of the channels in any market. When we move into it are like, this is a no-brainer. I want more eyeballs. We're Nielsen, uh, RA, uh, rated mean we support. And so we, >>How many markets are you in right now? >>We're in 21 now. And we hope to be in, uh, over 50 by the end of the year, covering more than half the United States. >>So, all right, Jim, thanks for coming on the queue. Really appreciate it. >>My pleasure. Good luck >>Recognition. Very disruptive disrupting media, um, combination of over the air TV, local with I internet. Obviously we love that with a cube. We want a cube channel anywhere possible. I'm John furry host of the queue here at AWS summit. Highing all the big trends and technologies in cloud and media back with more coverage after this short break,

(bright music) >> Hello everyone and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage here in San Francisco, California for AWS Summit 2022. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. Two days of coverage, AWS Summit 2022 in New York city's coming up this summer, we'll be there as well. Events are back. theCUBE is back. Of course, with theCUBE virtual, CUBE hybrid, the cube.net. Check it out, a lot of content this year more than ever. A lot more cloud data, cloud native, modern applications, all happening. Got a great guest here. Jeremy Burton, CUBE alumni, CEO of Observe, Inc. in the middle of all the cloud scale, big data, observability. Jeremy, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Always great to come and talk to you on theCUBE man. It's been a few years. >> Well, you got your hands. You're in the trenches with great startup, good funding, great board, great people involved in the observability space, hot area, but also you've been a senior executive. President of Dell, EMC, 11 years ago you had a vision and you actually had an event called cloud meets big data. >> Jeremy: Yeah. >> And it's here. You predicted it 11 years ago. Look around, it's cloud meets big data. >> Yeah, the cloud thing I think was probably already a thing, but the big data thing I do claim credit for sort of catching that bus early, We were on the bus early and I think it was only inevitable. Like if you could bring the economics and the compute of cloud to big data, you could find out things you could never possibly imagine. >> So you're close to a lot of companies that we've been covering deeply. Snowflake obviously are involved. The board level, the founders, the people there, cloud, Amazon, what's going on here? You're doing a startup as the CEO at the helm, chief of Observe, Inc., which is an observability, which is to me in the center of this confluence of data, engineering, large scale integrations, data as code, integrating into applications. It's a whole another world developing, like you see with Snowflake, it means Snowflake is super cloud as we call it. So a whole nother wave is here. What's this wave we're on? How would you describe the wave? >> Well, a couple of things. People are, I think, riding more software than ever before. Why? Because they've realized that if you don't take your business online and offer a service, then you become largely irrelevant. And so you you've got a whole set of new applications. I think more applications now than any point, not just ever, but the mid nineties. I always looked at as the golden age of application development. Now, back then people were building for Windows. Well now they're building for things like, AWS is now the platform. So you've got all of that going on. And then at the same time, the side effect of these applications is they generate data and lots of data and the transactions, what you bought today or something like that. But then there's what we do, which is all the telemetry data, all the exhaust fumes. And I think people really are realizing that their differentiation is not so much their application. It's their understanding of the data. Can I understand who my best customers are? What I sell today? If people came to my website and didn't buy, then why not? Where did they drop off? All of that they want to analyze. And the answers are all in the data. The question is, can you understand it? >> In our last startup showcase, we featured data as code. One of the insights that we got out of that, and I want to get your opinion on or reaction to is, is that data used to be put into a data lake and turns into a data swamp or throw into the data warehouse, and then we'll do some queries, maybe a report once in a while. And so data, once it was done, unless it was real time, even real time was not good anymore after real time. That was the old way. Now you're seeing more and more effort to say, let's go look at the data, 'cause now machine learning is getting better. Not just train once, they're iterating. This notion of iterating and then pivoting, iterating and pivoting That's a Silicon Valley story. That's like how startups were, but now you're seeing data being treated the same way. So now you have this data concept that's now part of a new way to create more value for the apps. So this whole new cycle of data being reused and repurposed, then figure it out. >> Yeah, yeah, I'm a big fan of, years ago, just an amazing guy, Andy McAfee, at the MIT labs. I spent time with and he had this line, which still sticks to me this day, which is look, he said, I'm part of a body, which believes that everything is a matter of data. Like if you have enough data, you can answer any question. And this has going back 10 years when he was saying these kind of things and certainly, research is on the forefront. But I think starting to see that mindset of the MIT research be mainstream in enterprises. They're realizing that, yeah, it is about the data. If I can better understand my data better than competitor, then I've got an advantage. And so the question is how? What technologies and what skills do I need in my organization to allow me to do that? >> So let's talk about Observe, Inc. You're the CEO. Given you've seen the waves before, you're in the front lines of observability, which again is in the center of all this action. What's going on with the company? Give a quick minute to explain Observe for the folks who don't know what you guys do. What's the company doing? What's the funding status? What's the product status? And what's the customer status? >> Yeah, so we realized, a handful of years ago, let's say five years ago. Look, the way people are building applications is different. They're way more functional. They change every day. But in some respects there are a lot more complicated. They're distributed, microservices architectures. And when something goes wrong, the old way of troubleshooting and solving problems was not going to fly because you had so much change going into production on a daily basis. It was hard to tell like where the problem was. And so we thought, okay, it's about time. Somebody looks at the exhaust fumes from this application and all the telemetry data and helps people troubleshoot and make sense of the problems that they're seeing. So that's observability. It's actually a term that goes back to the 1960s. It was, a guy called, like everything in tech, it's a reinvention of something from years gone by, but there's a guy called Rudy Coleman in 1960s, kind of term. And the term was been able to determine the state of a system by looking at its external outputs. And so we've been going on this for the best part of four years now. It took us three years just to build the product. I think what people don't appreciate these days often is the barrier to entry in a lot of these markets is quite high. You need a lot of functionality to have something that's credible with a customer. So yeah, this last year, we did our first year selling. We've got about 40 customers now. We got great investors Sutter Hill Ventures. Mike Speiser who was really the first guy in the Snowflake and the initial investor. We're fortunate enough to have Mike on our board. And part of the Observe story is closely knit with Snowflake because all of that telemetry data, we store in there. >> So I want to pivot to that. Mike Speiser, Snowflake, Jeremy Burton, theCUBE kind of same thinking. This idea of a super cloud or what Snowflake became. >> Jeremy: Yeah. >> Snowflake is massively successful on top of AWS. And now you're seeing startups and companies build on top of Snowflake. >> Jeremy: Yeah. >> So that's become an entrepreneurial story that we think that to go big in the cloud, you can have a cloud on a cloud, like as Jerry Chen in Greylock calls it, castles in the cloud where there are moats in the cloud. So you're close to it. I know you're doing some stuff with Snowflake's. So as a startup, what's your view on building on top of say a Snowflake or an AWS, because again, you got to go where the data is. You need all the data. >> Jeremy: Yeah. >> What's your take on that? >> Having enough gray hair now. Again, in tech, I think if you want to predict the future, look at the past. And 20 years ago, 25 years ago, I was at a smaller company called Oracle. And an Oracle was the database company and their ambition was to manage all of the world's transactional data. And they built on a platform or a couple of platforms. One, Windows, and the other main one was Solaris. And so at that time, the operating system was the platform. And then that was the ecosystem that you would compete on top of. And then there were companies like SAP that built applications on top of Oracle. So then wind the clock forward 25 years, gray hairs, the platform isn't the operating system anymore. The platform is AWS, Google cloud. I probably look around if I say that in. >> It's okay. But Hyperscale. >> Yeah. >> CapEx built out. >> That is the new platform. And then Snowflake comes along. Well, their aspiration is to manage all of the, not just human generated data, but machine generated data in the world of cloud. And I think they they've done an amazing job doing for the, I'd say the big data world, what Oracle did for the relational data world way back 25 years ago. And then there are folks like us come along and of course my ambition would be, look, if we can be as successful as an SAP building on top of Snowflake, as they were on top of Oracle, then we'd probably be quite happy. >> So you're building on top of Snowflake? >> We're building on top of Snowflake a hundred percent. And I've had folks say to me, well, aren't you worried about that? Isn't that a risk? It's like, well, that's a risk. >> Are you still on the board? >> Yeah, I'm still on the board. Yeah. That's a risk I'm prepared to take. I am long on Snowflake. >> It sounds, well, you're in a good spot. Stay on the board then you'll know as going on. Okay, seriously, this is a real dynamic. >> Jeremy: It is. >> It's not a one off. >> Well, and I do believe as well that the platform that you see now with AWS, if you look at the revenues of AWS, it is an order of magnitude more than Microsoft was 25 years ago with windows. And so I believe the opportunity for folks like Snowflake and folks like Observe, it's an order magnitude more than it was for the Oracle and the SAPs of the old world. >> Yeah, and I think this is something that this next generation of entrepreneurship is the go big scenario is you got to be on a platform. >> Yeah and it's quite easy. >> Or be the platform, but it's hard. There's only like how many seats are at that table left. >> Well, value migrates up over time. So when the cloud thing got going, there were probably 10, 20, 30, rack space and there's 1,000,001 infrastructure for service, platform as a service. My old employee EMC, we had Pivotal. Pivotal was a platform as a service. You don't hear so much about it these days, but initially there's a lot of players and then it consolidates. And then to extract a real business, you got to move up, you got to add value, you got to build databases, then you got to build applications. >> It's interesting. Moving from the data center to the cloud was a dream for starters 'cause they didn't have to provision the CapEx. Now the CapEx is in the cloud. Then you build on top of that, you got Snowflake. Now you got on top of that. >> The assumption is almost that compute and storage is free. I know it's not quite free. >> Yeah, it's almost free. >> But as an application vendor, you think, well, what can I do if I assume compute and storage is free, that's the mindset you've got to get into. >> And I think the platform enablement to value. So if I'm an entrepreneur, I'm going to get a serious multiple of value in what I'm paying. Most people don't even blink at their AWS bills unless they're like massively huge. Then it's a repatriation question or whatever discount question. But for most startups or any growing company, the Amazon bill should be a small factor. >> Yeah, a lot of people ask me like, look, you're building on Snowflake. You're going to be paying their money. How does that work with your business model? If you're paying them money, do you have a viable business? And it's like, well, okay. We could build a database as well in Observe, but then I've got half the development team working on something that will never be as good as Snowflake. And so we made the call early on that, no, we want to innovate above the database. Snowflake are doing a great job of innovating on the database and the same is true with something like Amazon, like Snowflake could have built their own cloud and their own platform, but they didn't. >> Yeah and what's interesting is that Dave Vellante and I have been pointing this out and he's obviously more on Snowflake. I've been looking at Databricks and the same dynamics happening. The proof is the ecosystem. >> Yeah. >> If you look at Snowflake's ecosystem right now and Databricks, it's exploding. The shows are selling out. This floor space is booked. That's the old days at VMware. The old days at AWS. >> One and for Snowflake and any platform provider, it's a beautiful thing because we build on Snowflake and we pay their money. They don't have to sell to us. And we do a lot of the support. And so the economics work out really, really well if you're a platform provider and you've got a lot of ecosystems. >> And then also you get a trajectory of economies of scale with the institutional knowledge of Snowflake, integrations, new products, you're scaling and step function with them. >> Yeah, we manage 10 petabytes of data right now. When I arrived at EMC in 2010, we had one petabyte customer. And so at Observe, we've been only selling the product for a year. We have 10 petabytes of data under management. And so being able to rely on a platform that can manage that is invaluable. >> Well, Jeremy, great conversation. Thanks for sharing your insights on the industry. We got a couple minutes left, put a plug in for Observe. What do you guys do? You got some good funding, great partners. I don't know if you can talk about your POC customers, but you got a lot of high ends folks that are working with you. You get in traction. >> Yeah >> Scales around the corner sounds like. Is that where you at? Pre-scale? >> We've got a big announcement coming up in two or three weeks. We've got new funding, which is always great. The product is really, really close. I think, as a startup, you always strive for market fit, at which point can you just start hiring salespeople and the revenue keeps going. We're getting pretty close to that right now. We've got about 40 SaaS companies that run on the platform. They're almost all AWS Kubernetes, which is our sweet spot to begin with, but we're starting to get some really interesting enterprise type customers. We're F5 networks. We're POC in right now with Capital One. We've got some interesting news around Capital One coming up. I can't share too much, but it's going to be exciting. And like I said, Sutter Hill continue to stick. >> And I think Capital One's a big Snowflake customer as well, right? >> They were early and one of the things that attracted me to Capital One was they were very, very good with Snowflake early on and they put Snowflake in a position in the bank where they thought that snowflake could be successful. And today that is one of Snowflake's biggest accounts. >> Capital One, very innovative cloud. Obviously, AWS customer and very innovative. certainly in the CISO and CIO. On another point on where you're at. So you're pre-scale meaning you're about to scale. >> Jeremy: Right. >> So you got POCs. What's that trajectory look like? And you see around the corner, what's going on? What's around the corner that you're going to hit the straight and narrow and gas it fast? >> Yeah, the key thing for us is we got to get the product right. The nice thing about having a guy like Mike Speiser on the board is he doesn't obsess about revenue at this stage. His questions at the board are always about like, is the product right? Is the product right? Have you got the product right? 'Cause we know when the product's right, we can then scale the sales team and the revenue will take care of itself. So right now all the attention is on the product. This year, the exciting thing is we're adding all the tracing visualizations. So people will be able to the kind of things that back in the day you could do with the New Relics and AppDynamics, the last generation of APM tools. You're going to be able to do that within Observe. And we've already got the logs and the metrics capability in there. So for us this year is a big one 'cause we complete the trifecta, the logs. >> What's the secret sauce of observe if you put it into a sentence, what's the secret sauce? >> I think, an amazing founding engineering team, number one. At the end of the day, you have to build an amazing product and you have to solve a problem in a different way and we've got great long term investors. And the biggest thing our investors give is, actually it's not just money, it gives us time to get the product right. Because if we get the product right, then we can get the growth. >> Got it. Final question while I got you here. You've been on the enterprise business for a long time. What's the buyer landscape out there? You got people doing POCs, Capital One scale. So we know that goes on. What's the appetite at the buyer side for startups and what are their requirements that you're seeing? Obviously, we're seeing people go in and dip into the startup pool because new ways to refactor their business, restructure. So a lot of happening in cloud. What's the criteria? How are enterprises engaging in with startups? >> Yeah, enterprises, they know they've got to spend money transforming the business. I almost feel like my old Dell or EMC self there, but what we were saying five years ago is happening. Everybody needs to figure out a way to take their business to this digital world. Everybody has to do it. So the nice thing from a startup standpoint is they know at times they need to risk or take a bet on new technology in order to help them do that. So I think you've got buyers that A, have money, B, are prepared to take risks, and it's a race against time to get their offerings in this new digital footprint. >> Final, final question. What's the state of AWS? Where do you see them going next? Obviously, they're continuing to be successful. How does cloud 3.0? Or they always say it's day one, but it's maybe more like day 10, but what's next for AWS? Where do they go from here? Obviously, they're doing well and they're getting bigger and bigger. >> Yeah, it's an amazing story. We are on AWS as well. And so I think if they keep nurturing the builders and the ecosystem, then that is their superpower. They have an early leads. And if you look at where, maybe the likes of Microsoft lost the plot in the late nineties, it was they stopped really caring about developers and the folks who are building on top of their ecosystem. In fact, they started buying up their ecosystem and competing with people in their ecosystem. And I see with AWS, they have an amazing head start. And if they did more, if they do more than that, that's what's going to keep this juggernaut rolling for many years to come. >> They got the Silicon and they got the Stack developing. Jeremy Burton inside theCUBE, great resource for commentary, but also founding with the CEO of a company called Observe, Inc. In the middle of all the action and the board of Snowflake as well. Great startup. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Always a pleasure. >> Live from San Francisco's theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. Stay with us. More coverage from San Francisco, California after the short break. (soft music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Las Vegas everybody. You're watching theCUBE coverage of AWS reinvent 2021. I tell you this place is packed. It's quite amazing here, over 20,000 people, I'd say it's closer to 25, maybe 27,000, and it's whole overflow, lots going on in the evenings. It's quite remarkable and we're really happy to be part of this. Jay Turner is here, he's the Vice President of Development and Operations, at PCCW Global. He's joined by Garrett Lowell, Vice President of Ecosystem Partnerships for the Americas at PCCW Global. Guys, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Jay, maybe you could take us through, for those people who aren't familiar with your company, what do you guys do, what are you all about? >> PCCW Global is the international operating wing of Hong Kong telecom. If it's outside of Hong Kong, it's our network. We've got about 695,000 kilometers of diverse cable, we've got about 43, 44 terabit of capacity came into business in 2005, if my brain is serving me correctly right now. We have a very diverse and vast portfolio ranging all the way from satellite teleports, all the way to IP transit. We're a Tier 1 service provider from that perspective as well. We do one of everything when it comes to networking and that's really, what was the basis of Console Connect, was inventing a platform to really enable our users to capitalize on our network and our assets. >> Okay. 2005, obviously you predated Cloud, you laid a bunch of fibers struck it in the ocean, I mean, global networks. There was a big trend to do that you had to think, you had to go bigger, go home in that business, (laughing) all right. Console Connect is your platform, is that right? >> Jay: Yes. >> So explain- >> Yeah, sorry, Console Connect is a software defined interconnection platform. We built a user self-service portal. Users can allocate ports, they get the LOAs issued to them directly from the platform. And then once they've got an active port or they've come in via one of our partnerships, they can then provision connectivity across our platform. That may be extending to their data centers or extending to their branch office, or it could be building a circuit into the Cloud via direct connect, could be building a circuit into an internet exchange. All of those circuits are going to be across that 685,000 kilometers of diverse fiber rather than going across the public internet. >> When you started, it took some time obviously to build out that infrastructure and then the Cloud came into play, but it was still early days, but it sounds like you're taking the AWS Cloud model and applying that to your business, eliminate all that undifferentiated heavy lifting, if you will, like the visioning in management. >> Yeah, we've heard many people, and that's kind of the impetus of this was, I want to be directly connected to my end point. And how do I do that? AWS, yes, they had direct connect, but figuring out how to do that as an enterprise was challenging. So we said, hey, we'll automate that for you. Just tell us what region you want to connect to. And we'll do all the heavy lifting and we'll just hand you back a villain tag. You're good to go. So it's a classic case, okay. AWS has direct connect. People will go, oh, that's directly competitive, but it's now you're adding value on top of that. Right? >> Yeah. >> Describe where you fit, Garrett, inside of the AWS ecosystem. You look around this hall and it's just a huge growing ecosystem, where you fit inside of that ecosystem and then your ecosystem. What's that like? >> Where we fit into the AWS ecosystem, as Jay alluded to, we're adding value to our partners and customers where they can come in, not only are they able to access the AWS platform as well as other Cloud platforms, but they're also able to access each other. We have a marketplace in our platform, which allows our customers and partners to put a description of their services on the marketplace and advertise their capabilities out to the rest of the ecosystem of PCCW Global and Console Connect. >> And you're doing that inside of AWS, is that right or at least in part? >> No, that's not inside of AWS. >> So your platform is your platform. >> Yes. >> Your relationship with AWS is to superpower direct connect. Is that right or? >> So we're directly connected to AWS throughout the globe. And this allows our customers and partners to be able to utilize not only the PCCW global network, but also to expand that capability to the AWS platform in Cloud. >> So wherever there's a Cloud, you plug into it, okay? >> Garrett: That's correct. >> Jay: Yeah. And then another advantage, the customer, obviously doesn't have to be directly co-located with AWS. They don't have to be in the same geographical region. If for some reason you need to be connected to U.S. west, but you're in Frankfurt, fine, we'll back all the traffic for you. >> Dave: Does that happen a lot? >> It actually does. >> How come? What's the use case there. >> Global diversity is certainly one of them just being able to have multiple footprints. But the other thing that we're seeing more of late is these Cloud-based companies are beginning to be attracted to where their customers are located. So they'll start seeing these packets of views and they'll go, well, we're going to go into that region as well, stand up a VPC there. We want our customers then being able to directly connect to that asset that's closest to them. And then still be able to back call that traffic if necessary or take it wherever. >> What's the big macro trends in your business? Broadly you see cost per bit coming down, you see data consumption and usage going through the roof. How does that affect you? What are some of the big trends that you see? >> I think one of the biggest ones and one that we targeted with Console Connect, we were hearing a lot of customers going, the world's changing so dynamically. We don't know how to do a one-year forecast of bandwidth, much less a three-year, which is what a lot of contracts are asking us for. So we said, hey, how about one day? Can you do one day? (Dave laughs) Because that's what our granularity is. We allow for anything from one day up to three years right now, and then even within that term, we're dynamic. If something happens, if suddenly some product goes through the roof and you've suddenly got a spike in traffic, if a ship drags its anchor through a sub sea cable, and suddenly you're having to pivot, you just come into the platform, you click a couple of buttons, 20 seconds later, we've modified your bandwidth for you or we've provisioned a new circuit for you, we've got your backup going, whatever. Really at the end of the day, it's the customer paying for their network, so the customer should be the one making those decisions. >> How's that affect pricing? I presume or so, I can have one day to a three-year term, for example if I commit to three years, I get a better deal. Is that right, or? >> You do, but at the end of the day, it's actually pretty much a moderate, a better deal. We don't want to force the hand of the customer. If you signed a 12 month contract with us, we're going to give you a 3% discount. >> So it's not really, that's not a motivation to do it. It's just (indistinct) reduce the transaction complexity. And that's why you will sign up for a longer term not to get the big discount. >> Correct. And then, like I said, even within a longer contract, we're still going to allow you to flex and flow and modify if you need to, because it's your network. >> What kind of constraints do you put on that? Do I have to commit to a flow? And then everything above that is, I can flex up. Is that how it works? >> Yeah. >> Okay. And then, the more I commit to, the better the deal is, or not necessarily? >> No, it's pretty much flat rate. >> Okay, I'm going to commit and I'm going to say, all right, I know I'm going to use X, or sign up for that and anything over it, you're pretty flexible, I might get a few points if I sign up for more, somebody might want to optimize that if they're big enough. >> And another really neat advantage, the other complaint we heard from customers, they go, I need three different direct connect, I need to be connected to three different parties, but I don't want to run three different cross-connects and I don't want to have three different ports. That's just an expense and I don't want. And we, fine, take your one gig port run one gig of services on it. If that's 20 different services, we're fine. We allow you to multiplex your port and provision as- >> So awesome. I love that model. I know some software companies who I would recommend to take a look at that pricing model. So Garrett, how do you segment the ecosystem? How do you look at that? Maybe you could draw and paint a picture of the idea of partners and what they look like. I know there's not just one category, but, >> Sure. Our ideal partners are internet exchangers, Cloud partners and SAS providers, because a big piece of our business is migration to the Cloud, and the flexibility of our platform allows and encourages our SAS providers and SI partners to perform migration to the Cloud much easier in a flexible format for their customers. >> What can you tell us, any kind of metrics you can give us around your business to give a sense of the scope, the scale? >> Well, of our business, (Dave laughs) one of the driving factors here, Gardner says that about 2023, I think, 40% of the enterprise workloads will be deployed in the Cloud, which is all fine and dandy, except in my head, you're just trading one set of complexities for another. Instead of having everything in a glass house and being able to understand that, now you're going, it's in the Cloud, now I need to manage my connectivity there. wait a minute, are my security policies still the same? Do they apply if I'm going across the public internet? What exposure have I just bought into myself to try to run this? The platform really aims at normalizing that as much as possible. If you're directly connected to AWS, at the end of the day, that's a really long ethernet cable. So your a glass house just got a lot bigger, but you're still able to maintain and use the exact same policies and procedures that you've been using. That's really one of our guiding principles, is to reduce that complexity and make it very simple for the user. >> I understand that, cause in the early days of Cloud, a lot of enterprises, the CIOs, they were concerned about security, then I think they realized, ah, AWS has pretty good security. CIA is using it. But still people would say to me, it's not that it's best security, it's just different. You know, we move slow, Dave. How do you accommodate, there's that diversity, I mean, AWS is obviously matured, but are you suggesting that you can take my security edicts in my glass house and bring those into your networks and ultimately into the Cloud? Is that how it works? >> That's the goal. It's not going to be a panacea more than likely, but the more edicts that we can allow you to bring across and not have to go back and revamp and, the better for you as a customer and the better really for us, because it normalizes things, it makes it much easier for us to accommodate more and more users. >> And is it such now in the eco, is all the diversity in the ecosystem, is it such that there's enough common patterns you guys can accommodate most of those use cases? >> Yeah, absolutely. One of the key components is the fact that the platform runs on our MPLS network, which is inherently secure. It's not on the public internet anywhere. We do have internet on demand capability. So in the event that a customer wants access to the internet, no problem. We can accommodate this. And we also have 5G capability built into the platform to allow flexibility of location and flexibility of, I would say, standing up new customer locations. And then the other component of the security is the fact that the customers can bring their own security and apply anywhere. We're not blocking, we don't have any port filters or anything of this nature. >> If would think 5G actually, I could see people arguing both sides, but my sense is 5G is going to be a huge driver for your business cause it's going to just create so much more demand for your services, I think. I can see somebody arguing the counter about it. What's your point of view on that? >> No, I think that's a fair assessment. I think it's going to drive business for everyone here on the show floor and it's pushing those workloads more toward the edge, which is not an area that people were typically concerned with. The edge was just the door that they walked through. That's becoming much different now. We're also going to start seeing, and we're already seeing it, huge trends of moving that data at the edge rather than bringing it all the way back to a central warehouse and help ending it. The ability to have a dynamic platform where you can see exactly what your network's doing and in the push of a button, modify that, or provision new connectivity in response to how your business is performing. >> Yeah, ultimately it's all about the applications that are going to be driving demand for more data. That's just a tailwind for you guys. >> Yeah. You look at, some of the car companies are coming on, Tesla, you're drive around with like eight CPUs and I think communicating back over the air. >> Dave: Yeah, right. >> You start scaling that and you start getting into some some real bottlenecks. >> Amazing business you guys having obviously capital intensive, but once you get in there, you got a big moat. That is a matter of getting on a flywheel and innovating. Guys, congratulations on all the progress and so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks for the time. >> Thank you very much. >> Great to meet you guys. Good luck. All right, thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, the leader in High-Tech Coverage. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>>Hello, and welcome back to the cubes coverage of coop con cloud native con 2021. We're here in person at a real event. I'm John farrier host of the cube, but Dave Nicholson, Michael has got great guests here. Two founders of brand new startup, one week old cable on ASCII and Dave Lawrence, uh, with chain guard, former Google employees, open source community members decided to start a company with five other people on total five total. Congratulations. Welcome to the cube. >>Thank you. Thank you for >>Having us. So tell us like a product, you know, we know you don't have a price. So take us through the story because this is one of those rare moments. We got great chance to chat with you guys just a week into the new forms company and the team. What's the focus, what's the vision. >>How far back do you want to go with this story >>And why you left Google? So, you know, we're a gin and tonics. We get a couple of beers I can do that. We can do that. Let's just take over the world. >>Yeah. So we both been at Google, uh, for awhile. Um, the last couple of years we've been really worried about and focused on open-source security risk and supply chain security in general and software. Um, it's been a really interesting time as you probably noticed, uh, to be in that space, but it wasn't that interesting two years ago or even a year and a half ago. Um, so we were doing a bunch of this work at Google and the open source. Nobody really understood it. People kind of looked at us funny at talks and conferences. Um, and then beginning of this year, a bunch of attacks started happening, uh, things in the headlines like solar winds, solar winds attack, like you say, it attack all these different ransomware things happening. Uh, companies and governments are getting hit with supply chain attacks. So overnight people kind of started caring and being really worried about the stuff that we've been doing for a while. So it was a pretty cool thing to be a part of. And it seemed like a good time to start a company and keep your >>Reaction to this startup. How do you honestly feel, I suppose, feeling super excited. Yeah. >>I am really excited. I was in stars before Google. So then I went to Google where there for seven, I guess, Dan, a little bit longer, but I was there for seven years on the product side. And then yeah, we, we, the open source stuff, we were really there for protecting Google and we both came from cloud before that working on enterprise product. So then sorta just saw the opportunity, you know, while these companies trying to scramble and then sort of figure out how to better secure themselves. So it seemed like a perfect, >>The start-up bug and you back in the start up, but it's the timing's perfect. I got to say, this is a big conversation supply chain from whether it's components and software now, huge attack vector, people are taking advantage of it super important. So I'm really glad you're doing it. But first explain to the folks watching what is supply chain software? What's the challenge? What is the, what is the supply chain security challenge or problem? >>Sure. Yeah, it's the metaphor of software supply chain. It's just like physical supply chain. That's where the name came from. And it, it really comes down to how the code gets from your team's keyboard, your team's fingers on those keyboards into your production environment. Um, and that's just the first level of it. Uh, cause nobody writes all of the code. They use themselves. We're here at cloud native con it's hundreds of open source vendors, hundreds of open libraries that people are reusing. So your, your trust, uh, radius and your attack radius extends to not just your own companies, your own developers, but to everyone at this conference. And then everyone that they rely on all the way out. Uh, it's quite terrifying. It's a surface, the surface area explode pretty quickly >>And people are going and the, and the targeting to, because everyone's touching the code, it's open. It's a lot of action going on. How do you solve the problem? What is the approach? What's the mindset? What's the vision on the problems solving solutions? >>Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think like you said, the first step is awareness. Like Dan's been laughing, he's been, he felt like a crazy guy in the corner saying, you know, stop building software underneath your desk and you know, getting companies, >>Hey, we didn't do, why don't you tell them? I was telling him for five years. >>Yeah. But, but I think one of his go-to lines was like, would you pick up a thumb drive off the side of the street and plug it into your computer? Probably not. But when you download, you know, an open source package or something, that's actually can give you more privileges and production environments and it's so it's pretty scary. Um, so I think, you know, for the last few years we've been working on a number of open source projects in this space. And so I think that's where we're going to start is we're going to look at those and then try to grow out the community. And we're, we're watching companies, even like solar winds, trying to piece these parts together, um, and really come up with a better solution for themselves. >>Are there existing community initiatives or open source efforts that are underway that you plan to participate in or you chart? Are you thinking of charting a new >>Path? >>Oh, it's that looks like, uh, Thomas. Yeah, the, the SIG store project we kicked off back in March, if you've covered that or familiar with that at all. But we kicked that off back in March of 2021 kind of officially we'd look at code for awhile before then the idea there was to kind of do what let's encrypted, uh, for browsers and Webster, um, security, but for code signing and open source security. So we've always been able to get code signing certificates, but nobody's really using them because they're expensive. They're complicated, just like less encrypted for CAS. They made a free one that was automated and easy to use for developers. And now people do without thinking about it in six stores, we tried to do the same thing for open source and just because of the headlines that were happening and all of the attacks, the momentum has just been incredible. >>Is it a problem that people just have to just get on board with a certain platform or tool or people have too many tools, they abandoned them there, their focus shifts is there. Why what's the, what's the main problem right now? >>Well, I think, you know, part of the problem is just having the tools easy enough for developers are going to want to use them and it's not going to get in our way. I think that's going to be a core piece of our company is really nailing down the developer experience and these toolings and like the co-sign part of SIG store that he was explaining, like it's literally one command line to sign, um, a package, assign a container and then one line to verify on the other side. And then these organizations can put together sort of policies around who they trust and their system like today it's completely black box. They have no idea what they're running and takes a re >>You have to vape to rethink and redo everything pretty much if they want to do it right. If they just kind of fixing the old Europe's sold next solar with basically. >>Yeah. And that's why we're here at cloud native con when people are, you know, the timing is perfect because people are already rethinking how their software gets built as they move it into containers and as they move it into Kubernetes. So it's a perfect opportunity to not just shift to Kubernetes, but to fix the way you build software from this, >>What'd you say is the most prevalent change mindset change of developers. Now, if you had to kind of, kind of look at it and say, okay, current state-of-the-art mindset of a developer versus say a few years ago, is it just that they're doing things modularly with more people? Or is it more new approaches? Is there a, is there a, >>I think it's just paying attention to your building release process and taking it seriously. This has been a theme for, since I've been in software, but you have these very fancy production data centers with physical security and all these levels of, uh, Preston prevention and making sure you can't get in there, but then you've got a Jenkins machine that's three years old under somebody's desk building the code that goes into there. >>It gets socially engineered. It gets at exactly. >>Yeah. It's like the, it's like the movies where they, uh, instead of breaking into jail, they hide in the food delivery truck. And it's, it's that, that's the metaphor that I like perfectly. The fence doesn't work. If your truck, if you open the door once a week, it doesn't matter how big defenses. Yeah. So that's >>Good Dallas funny. >>And I, I think too, like when I used to be an engineer before I joined Google, just like how easy it is to bring in a third party package or something, you know, you need like an image editing software, like just go find one off the internet. And I think, you know, developers are slowly doing a mind shift. They're like, Hey, if I introduce a new dependency, you know, there's going to be, I'm going to have to maintain this thing and understand >>It's a little bit of a decentralized view too. Also, you got a little bit of that. Hey, if you sign it, you own it. If it tracks back to you, okay, you are, your fingerprints are, if you will, or on that chain of >>Custody and custody. >>Exactly. I was going to say, when I saw chain guard at first of course, I thought that my pant leg riding a bike, but then of course the supply chain things coming in, like on a conveyor belt, conveyor, conveyor belt. But that, that whole question of chain of custody, it isn't, it isn't as simple as a process where someone grabs some code, embeds it in, what's going on, pushes it out somewhere else. That's not the final step typically. Yeah. >>So somebody else grabs that one. And does it again, 35 more times, >>The one, how do you verify that? That's yeah, it seems like an obvious issue that needs to be addressed. And yet, apparently from what you're telling us for quite a while, people thought you were a little bit in that, >>And it's not just me. I mean, not so Ken Thompson of bell labs and he wrote the book >>He wrote, yeah, it was a seatbelt that I grew >>Up on in the eighties. He gave a famous lecture called uh, reflections on trusting trust, where he pranked all of his colleagues at bell labs by putting a back door in a compiler. And that put back doors into every program that compiled. And he was so clever. He even put it in, he made that compiler put a backdoor into the disassembler to hide the back door. So he spent weeks and, you know, people just kind of gave up. And I think at that point they were just like, oh, we can't trust any software ever. And just forgot about it and kept going on and living their lives. So this is a 40 year old problem. We only care about it now. >>It's totally true. A lot of these old sacred cows. So I would have done life cycles, not really that relevant anymore because the workflows are changing. These new Bev changes. It's complete dev ops is taken over. Let's just admit it. Right. So if we have ops is taken over now, cloud native apps are hitting the scene. This is where I think there's a structural industry change, not just the community. So with that in mind, how do you guys vector into that in terms of a market entry? What's just thinking around product. Obviously you got a higher, did you guys raise some capital in process? A little bit of a capital raise five, no problem. Todd market, but product wise, you've got to come in, get the beachhead. >>I mean, we're, we're, we're casting a wide net right now and talking to as many customers like we've met a lot of these, these customer potential customers through the communities, you know, that we've been building and we did a supply chain security con helped with that event, this, this Monday to negative one event and solar winds and Citibank were there and talking about their solutions. Um, and so I think, you know, and then we'll narrow it down to like people that would make good partners to work with and figure out how they think they're solving the problem today. And really >>How do you guys feel good? You feel good? Well, we got Jerry Chen coming off from gray lock next round. He would get a term sheet, Jerry, this guy's got some action on it in >>There. Probably didn't reply to him on LinkedIn. >>He's coming out with Kronos for him. He just invested 200 million at CrossFit. So you guys should have a great time. Congratulations on the leap. I know it's comfortable to beat Google, a lot of things to work on. Um, and student startups are super fun too, but not easy. None of the female or, you know, he has done it before, so. Right. Cool. What do you think about today? Did the event here a little bit smaller, more VIP event? What's your takeaway on this? >>It's good to be back in person. Obviously we're meeting, we've been associating with folks over zoom and Google meets for a while now and meeting them in person as I go, Hey, no hard to recognize behind the mask, but yeah, we're just glad to sort of be back out in a little bit of normalization. >>Yeah. How's everything in Austin, everyone everyone's safe and good over there. >>Yeah. It's been a long, long pandemic. Lots of ups and downs, but yeah. >>Got to get the music scene back. Most of these are comes back in the house. Everything's all back to normal. >>Yeah. My hair doesn't normally look like this. I just haven't gotten a haircut since this also >>You're going to do well in this market. You got a term sheet like that. Keep the hair, just to get the money. I think I saw your LinkedIn profile and I was wondering it's like, which version are we going to get? Well, super relevant. Super great topic. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on. Sharing the story. You're in the queue. Great jumper. Dave Nicholson here on the cube date, one of three days we're back in person of course, hybrid event. Cause the cube.net for all more footage and highlights and remote interviews. So stay tuned more coverage after this short break.

>> Okay. We're back here. theCube and all the action here in Mobile World Congress, cloud city, I'm John ferry, host of the cube. We've got a great remote interviews. Of course, it's a hybrid event here in the cube. And of course, cloud city's bringing all the physical face-to-face and we're going to get the remote interviews. Peter Adderton, founder, chairman, CEO of Mobile X Global. Nicholas Gerrard, founder and CEO of OxyGo. Gentlemen, thank you for coming in remotely onto the cube here in the middle of cloud city. You missed Bon Jovi last night, he was awesome. The little acoustic unplugged and all the action. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> All right, Peter and Nicholas, if you don't mind, just take a quick 30 seconds to set the table on what you guys do, your business and your focus here at Mobile World Congress. >> So I'll jump in quickly. Being the Australian, I'll go first, but just quick by way of background, I founded a company called Boost Mobile, which is one of the, is now the fourth largest mobile brand in, in America. And I spent a lot of time managing effort in that, in that space and now launching Mobile X, which is kind of the first cloud AI platform that we're going to build for mobile. >> Awesome. Nicholas. >> So I'm a founder of a company called, Ox Fuel where we do is basically a telecommunity service platform for brands to basically incorporate telecom as part of their services and learn from their customers through what we call a telecom business intelligence. So basically making sense of the telecom data to improve their business across retail, financial services or in-demand economy. >> Awesome. Well, thanks for the setup. Peter, I want to ask you first, if you don't mind, the business models in the telecom area is really becoming, not just operate, but build and build new software enabled software defined just cloud-based software. And this has been a change in mindset, not so much a change so much in the actual topologies per se, or the actual investments, but as a change in personnel. What's your take on this whole cloud powering the change in the future of telco? >> Well, I think you've got to look at where the telcos have come from in order to understand where they're going in the future. And where they've come from is basically using other people's technology to try to create a differentiation. And I think that that's the struggle that they're going to have. They talk about wanting to convert themselves from telcos into techcos. I just think it's a leap too far for the carriers to do that. So I think we're going to see, you know, them pushing 5G, which you see they're doing out there right now. Then they start talking about open rand and cloud and, and at the end of the day, all they want to do is basically sell you a plan, give you a phone attached to that and try to make as much money out of you as they possibly can. And they disguise that basically in the whole technology 5G open rand discussion, but they really, I don't think care. And at the end of the day, I don't think the consumers care, their model isn't built around technology. The model is built around selling your data and, and that's their fundamental principle and how they do that. And I've seen them go through from 2G, 3G, 4G, 5G. Every G we see come out has a promise of something new and incredible. But what we basically get is a data plan with the minutes. Right? >> Yeah, yeah I totally right on. And I think we're going to get into the whole edge piece of what that's going to open up when you start thinking about what, what the capabilities are and this new stakeholders who are going to have an interest in the trillions of dollars on the table right now, up for grabs. But Nicholas wanted to get to you on this whole digital-first thing, because one of the things we've been saying on theCube and interviewing folks and riffing on is: If digital drives more value and there's new use cases that are going to bring on, that's going to enabled by software. There's now new stakeholders coming and saying, Hey, you know what? I need more than just a pipe. I need more than just the network. I need to actually run healthcare. I need to run education on the edge. These are now industrial and consumer related use cases. I mean, this is software. This is where software and apps shine. So cloud native can enable that. So what's your take on the industry as they start to wake up and say, holy shit, this is going to be pretty massive when you look at what's coming. Not so much what's going to be replatformed, but what's coming. >> Yeah, no, I think it's a, it's where I kind join Peter on this. There's been pretty significant, heavy innovation on the carrier side for, you know, if you think about it 30 years or so of like just reselling plans effectively, which is a virtual slice of the network that built. And all of a sudden they started competing against, you know, the heavyweights on the internet. We had, putting the bar really high in terms of, you know, latency in terms of expectation, in terms of APIs, right? We've we've heard about telecom APIs for 15 years, right? It's- nothing comes close to what you could get if you start building on top of a Stripe or a Google. So I think, it's going to be hard for a lot of those companies. What we do with our show is we try to bridge that gap. Right, we try to build on top of their infrastructure to be able to expose modern APIs, to be able to open up a programmatic interface so that innovators like Peter's are able to actually really take the user experience forward and start, building those specialized businesses across healthcare, financial services, and whatnot. >> Yeah, David Blanca and I were on the, on theCube yesterday talking about how Snowflake, a company that basically sits on top of Amazon built almost nothing on the infrastructure. Built on top of it and was successful. Peter, this is a growth thing. One of the things I want to get your thoughts on is you've had experiences in growing companies. How do you look at the growth coming into this market, Peter, because you know, you got to have new opportunities coming in. It's a growth play too. It's not just take share from someone. It's net new capabilities. >> Yeah. Here's the issue you've got with the wireless industry is that there's only a very few amount of them that actually have that last mile covered. So if you're going to build something on top of it, you're going to have to deal with the carrier, and the carrier as out of like a duopoly slash monopoly, because without their access to their network, you're not going to be able to do these incredible things. So I think we've got a real challenge there where you're going to have to get the carriers to innovate. Now you've got the CEO of Deutsche Telekom coming out yesterday saying that the OTT players aren't paying their fair share. Right, and I sit back and go, well, hang on. You're selling data to customers who basically are using that data to use apps and OTT. And now he's saying, well, they should pay as well. So not only the consumer pay, but now the OTT players should pay. It's a mixed message. So what you're going to have to do, and what we're going to have to do as a, as a growth industry is we're going to have to allow it to grow. And the only way to do that is that the carriers are going to have to have better access, allow more access to their networks, as Nico said, let the APIs has become more available. I just think that that's a leap too far. So I think we're going to be handicapped in our growth based on these carriers. And it's going to take regulators and it's going to take innovation and consumers demanding carriers, do it, otherwise, you know, you're still going to deal with the three carriers in your world. >> Yeah, That's interesting about- I was just talking to Danielle Royce, the DR here at TelcoDR. And she said, I was talking about ORAN and there's more infrastructure than needed. She said, oh, it's more software. I don't disagree with her. I do agree with it. But I also think that the ORAN points to, Nicholas, kind of this idea that there's more surface area to be had on the scale side. So standardizing hardware creates a lower fixed cost, so you can get some cost reduction. And then with standardized software, you get more enablement for hardened openness. I mean, open source is already proven. You can still be secure. And obviously Cloud was once said, could never be secure and most, is probably more secure than anything. What's your take on this whole ORAN commodity standardization mission- efforts? >> I think it's a, I mean, it goes along to the second phase, right? Of what the differentiation in telecom was, you know. Early on, specialized boxes that are very expensive. You know, that you, you, you, you get from a few vendors, then you have the transition over to a software. We lower the price, as you were mentioning. It can run on off the shelf hardware. And then we're in the transition, which is what Danielle is, is evangelizing, right. Transition towards the cloud and specifically the public cloud, because there's no such thing as a private cloud really. And, and so up and running is just another, another piece where you can make the Legos connect better effectively and just have more flexibility. And generally the, the, the game here is to also break the agenda when you- from, from the vendors, right? Because now you have a standard, so you don't necessarily need to buy the entire stack from, from the same vendors. You have a lot more flexibility. You know, you've probably followed the same debate that we've all seen, right. With a push against Huawei, for instance. Th-this is extremely hard for an operator, to start ripping out an entire vendor, because most of the time, they, they own the entire stack. But something like ORAN, now you can start mixing and matching with different vendors, but generally this is also a trend that's going to accelerate the move towards the public cloud. >> That's awesome. Peter, I want to get your thoughts because you're basically building on the cloud. And if you don't mind chime it in to kind of end the segment on this one point. People are trying to really get their minds around what refactoring means. And we've been saying, and talking about, you know, the three phases of, of waking up to the world. Reset your business, or reboot. Replatform to the cloud, and then refactor, which means take advantage of cloud enabled things, whether it's AI and other things. But first get on the platform, understand the economics, and then replatform. So the question, Peter, we'll start with you. What does refactoring actually mean and look like in a successful future execution or playbook? Can you share your thoughts, because this is what people want to get to because that's where the value will come from. That's where the iteration gets you. What's your take on this refactoring? >> Yeah, yeah. So I always, I mean, we're in the consumer business, so I'm always about what is the difference going to make for the consumer? So, whether you're, and when you look at refactoring and you look at what's happening in the space. Is what is the difference that's going to, what are the consumers going to see that's different and are they willing to pay for that? And so we can strip away the technical layers and we all get caught up in the industry with these buzzwords and terms, and we get, and at the end of the day, when it moves to the consumer, the consumer just sits there and says, so what's the value? How much am I paying? And so what we're trying to do at MobileX is, we're trying to use the cloud and we're trying to use kind of innovation into create a better experience for the consumer. One way to do that is to basically help the customer, understand their usage patents. You know, right now today, they don't understand that. Right if I asked you how much you paid for your mobile bill, you will tell me my cell phone bill is $150, but I'm going to ask you the next question How much data do you use? You go, I don't know, right? >> John: unlimited. >> And then I'd say why am I started- well you'd say limited, right. I will go. I'd go, I don't know. So I sit back and go, most customers are like you. You're basically paying for a service that you have no clear, no idea what you're getting. And it's designed by the carriers to scare you into thinking you need it. So I think we've got to get away from the buzzwords that we use as an industry and just dumb that down to what, what does that mean for a consumer? And I think that the cloud is going to allow us to create some very unique ways for consumers to interact with their device and their usage of that device. And I think that that's the holy grail for me. >> Yeah. That's a great point. And it's worth calling out because I think if the cloud can get you a 10X value at, at a reduction in costs compared to the competition, that's one benefit that people will pay for. And the other one is just, Hey, that's really cool. I want I'll, I value that, that's a valuable thing. I'll pay for it. So it's interesting that the cloud scale there, it's just a good mindset. >> Yeah. So it's always, I always like say to people, you know, I've spoken a lot to the Dish guys about what open rand is going to do and I keep saying to them, so what's the value that I'm going to get from a consumer. And they'll say, oh it's flexible pricing plans. They're now starting to talk about, okay, what the end product is of this technology. You look at ECM, right? ECM has been around for a long time. It's only now that we're to see ECM technology, get enabled. The carriers fought that for a long, long time. So there's a monumental shift that needs to take place. And it's in the four or five carriers in our counties. >> Awesome. Nicholas, what's your take on refactoring? Obviously, you know, you've got APIs, you've got all this cool software enabled. How do you get to refactoring and how do you execute through that? >> I mean, it's a little bit of a, what Peter was saying as well, right? There's the, the advantage of that point is to be, you know, all our stuff basically lives in the cloud, right. So it's opportunity to, to get that closer, you know, just having better latency, making sure that, you know, you're not losing your, your photos and your data as you lose your phone and yep. Just bet- better access in general. I, I think ultimately like the, the push to the cloud right now is it's mostly just a cost reduction. The back tick, as far as the carriers are concerned, right. They don't necessarily see how they can build that break. And then from there start interacting with the rest of the OTT world and, and, you know, Netflix is built on Amazon and companies like that, right? Like, so as you're able to get closer as a carrier to that cloud where the data lives, this is also just empowering better digital experience. >> Yeah I think that's where the that's, the proof point will be there, as they say, that's where the rubber will meet the road or proof is in the pudding, whatever expression. Once they get to that cost reduction, if they can wake up to that, whoa we can actually do something better here and make m- or if they don't someone else will. Right. That's the whole point. So, final question as we wrap up, ecosystem changeover. Lot more ecosystem action. I mean, there's a lot of vendors here at Mobile Congress, but real quick, Peter, Nicholas, your take on the future of ecosystem around this new telco. Peter, we'll start with you. >> Yeah, I look, I mean, it, it, again, it keeps coming back to, to, to where I say that consumers have driven all the ecosystems that have ever existed. And when I say consumers also to IOT as well, right? So it's not just the B to C it's also B to B. So look to the consumer and look to the business to see what pain points you can solve. And that will create the ecosystems. None of us bet on Uber, none of us bet on Airbnb. Otherwise we'd all be a lot richer than we are today. So none of us took that platform- and by the way, we've been in mobile and wireless and any kind of that space smartphone space for a long time. And we will miss those applications. And if you ask a CEO today of a telco, what's the 5G killer application, that's going to send 5G into the next atmosphere, they can't answer the question. They'll talk about drones and robotic surgeries and all things that basically will never have any value to a consumer at the end of the day. So I think we've got to go back to the consumer and that's where my focus is and say, how do we make their lives better? And that will create the ecosystem. >> Yeah, I mean, they go for the low hanging fruit. Low latency and, and whatnot. But yeah, let's, it's going to be, it's going to be, we'll see what happens. Nicolas your take on ecosystems as they develop. A lot more integrations and not customization. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I think so too. I mean, I think going back to, you know, again like 20- 20 years ago, the network was the product conductivity to the product. Today it's a, it's a building block, right? Something that you integrate that's part of your experience. So the same way we're seeing like conversions between telecom and financial services. Right? You see a lot of telcos trying to be banks. Banks and fintechs trying to be telcos. It's, it's a blending of that, right? So it, at the end of the day, it's like, why, what is the experience? What is the above and beyond the conductivity? Because customers, at this point, it's just not differentiated based on conductivity, kind of become just a busy commodity. So even as you look at what Peter is building, right, this, what is the experience above and beyond just buying a plan that I get out of it, or if you are a media company, you know, how do I pair my content or resolve real problems? Like for instance, we work a lot to the NBA and TikTok. They get into markets where, you know, having a video product at the end and people not being well-connected, that's a problem, right? So it's an opportunity for them to bring the building block into their ecosystem and start offering solutions that are a different shape. >> Awesome. Gentlemen, thank you so much. Both of you, both experienced entrepreneurs and executives riding the wave on the right side of history, I believe. Thanks for coming on theCube, I appreciate it. >> Thanks for having us. >> If you're not riding the wave the right way, you're driftwood. And we're going to toss it back to the studio. Adam and the team, take it from here.

(bright upbeat music) >> Welcome back. Lisa Martin here talking with Laureen Knudsen, a CUBE alumni. She's the Chief Transformation Officer at Broadcom and a founding member of the BizOps Coalition. Laureen, I'm excited to talk to you about an interesting topic today. Welcome back to the program. >> Thank you so much. Glad to be here. >> So we're going to be, yeah, we're going to be talking about the pros and cons of adding a Chief Digital Officer. You say, there may be some friction there, but it's going to be temporary as the benefits will be long lasting. So let's dive right in. Talk to me about what the role of a Chief Digital Officer is. Is this something that a CIO can take on? >> In some organizations, I think the CIO is taking on this role. And it's primarily focusing on what we're calling the digitization of the organization. So it's across more than just IT though. So it's looking at what kind of digital marketing should you be doing? What are your competitors doing? How can you make the most bang for your buck essentially across your entire organization? So it also includes parts that generally haven't been included in digital transformations, like your legal team or your finance team and the interactions with them. Can your contracts be digitized? Can they be made more efficient and more automated, right? So it's looking at the entire organization both internally and externally and looking at the strategy for how do you accomplish that and how do you truly make your organization as effective as it can be. >> Is this person almost like a bridge between the different lines of business and IT to get that external, internal focus? >> Yes, yeah, many people in IT don't have that business knowledge. That's a really good point. And so this person will need to have not only business knowledge but technical knowledge so they can essentially translate, right, the verbiage that is used in the different organizations and the jargon that's used to make it, to make the understanding between the two of what's needed more smooth, you know, the communication more smooth within the organization. Also focusing on customer value and making sure that, that both sides are saying the same, you know, when they use the same words, they're saying the same things. So doing that translation in that organization, across the entire company. >> Looking at it from the holistic perspective, you know, I know that the BizOps Coalition survey also showed that something that we hear that digital transformation isn't just about the technology. It's got to be all of the factors coming together aligned on business outcomes, aligned on what's the impact and the value to the customer. How is the Chief Digital Officer role going to facilitate that, not just understanding, but putting in practice that digital transformation is not just about technology? >> Well, and again, 95% of companies are confirming that, that right now they're focusing much more on business outcomes than just on technology. And so, there really is that need to, you know, what does that mean, right? When you're focusing on business outcomes, it often includes a lot of technology, but it's, you know, there's a different path to take to make sure that you're focusing on your customer outcomes. There's a lot of organizations that are looking at their apps and realizing their customers find the most value when they never have to use them. So how do you accomplish that, right? That's not adding new features in, that's not doing something new for the customer other than making it, making sure everything runs so smoothly that they never have to access your app. You know, we're running into that with a lot of business organizations like insurance companies or banking, phone, you know, telco companies, things like that where people really don't want to use the products you're creating for them if they don't have to. >> Right, adoption is always something that we talk about that can be a KPI but also a challenge. One of the things that I noticed that information that, that Broadcom provided was that Gartner says, in the next 12 months, 67% of organizations are going to be looking at hiring a Chief Digital Officer. Let's have you talk us through what are some of the forcing functions behind that? Obviously the last year has been quite, filled with quite a bit of uncertainty but we look back a couple of decades, there wasn't talk of a Chief Digital Officer. So, why this, why is there such a big uptick in the need for this role? >> Well, it's interesting 'cause Gartner originally talked about the Chief Digital Officer in about 2010 to 2012 timeframe where they were talking about the need for it. And it was a lot of, I think fast moving companies and the companies that really have made a lot of advancements in their effectiveness and their customer centricity have really grabbed onto this concept whether they've called it a Chief Digital Officer or not, but in the last year, it's forced everyone to have a digital footprint in the market. If you'll notice even your local restaurants that are family owned now have some sort of way to order their food digitally, right? So we're digitizing the entire thing and COVID is really, required every company to look at much more how they can do things electronically, any type of, you know, digitization whether it's like I've said before the marketing, or even how do you handle all of your contracts when there's no in-person signature and no, you know, fax machines to send things back and forth, right? It's all about making sure that all of that's secure and protected. So it's going across the entire organization. And that's really creating that need for somebody to be able to look at how your company can do all of those different things. Because quite frankly, the CIO already has a day job, right? Your Chief Marketing Officer already has a day job. So trying to look at how to be really innovative in these areas creates a gap, right? And people aren't finding that extra time to be able to do that and to look at how to be really streamlining their organizations and taking that innovation in with both internal and external viewpoints. >> Well, it'd be, imagine you mentioned, you know, the CIO, the CMO, the CFO having day jobs, but also one of the things it sounds to me like is important for this CDO role is to have objectivity. To be able to rise above all the different functions, the different technology stocks and probably silos that are there and really look holistically across the organization. So talk to me about some of the skills that are really required from the Chief Digital Officer. Is this someone that needs to have both an IT background and a business background, does it matter? >> I think as long as they have the knowledge of either side, that where they came from, isn't going to matter but you're going to, the problem is going to be finding the people with those dual skill sets, right? Because you're going to need somebody that can understand your business and your technology side to marry the two together. But they're also going to need to understand all the intricacies of the legal aspects that need to go into creating your products or the financial aspects of tracking what happens with your products. So they're really going to need to be not only very well educated and have a lot of experience, but the other thing they're going to need is that emotional empathy and that ability to work with everybody in the organization. Essentially if they do their job right, they'll be coming in and working with every other Vice President or chief in your organization. So there'll be helping to influence all of those people. And that can create a lot of conflict at first because you're having somebody else come in to give the CIO insights into how they can innovate technologically or to give the Chief Marketing Officer information on new ways that they can do their jobs, that they can digitize the marketing to be more effective and the right frame of mind to be able to do that. You know, hiring is going to be another place where these people will have a large imprint because they're going to need the knowledge to be able to interview all across the board for people that can help them get these new innovations into place. For example, if marketing needs to expand into more of a digital footprint to actually get the, the imprints that they need, right? How do you interview for that, when as a marketing leader, you've never run a digital part, a digital organization before. So it's really having the ability to partner with every other department in the organization and work with them, which, you know, to your point that can cause some conflicts to start off with but in the long run, it'll, it should be well worth it. >> Well, it sounds like that friction is probably unavoidable in the beginning as this person really works to understand all of the inner machinations of the organization and really identify what's best for the overall business. You mentioned empathy. And I think that's something that we've heard a lot about in the last year as leaders really needing to adopt that. And it sounds like this role for it to be such a catalyst of IT and business alignment, as it sounds like it really can be, that empathetic gene really needs to be turned on pretty high, I think. >> A 100%, right? They need to be able to be really understanding of the organization and the other people that they're working with, that those people do have a great bit of knowledge about the company that they're joining, right, generally and that they'll understand their jobs on a day-to-day basis. But the innovation parts, right, is where the Chief Digital Officer will come in. And if the Chief Digital Officer does this well, they can actually have a really big impact on the corporate culture as well which is a huge area that people are focusing on these days especially as every employee is remote. So it's a big job and a big ask and it's going to be really important for companies to hire the person with the best fit for their organization in this new role. >> You mentioned culture and that's something that is imperative but digital transformations won't be successful without the right cultural transformation. But that's easier said than done especially for organizations that have been around a while. And they're so used to the way they've done business for decades that it's hard to change that mindset, but it sounds like the Chief Digital Officer role should be one that is an influencer of that cultural change. How do you see them being able to do that within a, you know, stodgy, legacy institution? What are some of the things that they would be able to unlock? >> They should be able to re-energize portions of the company, right? If you're bringing in innovative ideas into a company that has had some difficulty hiring, right? There's a lot of companies that before the pandemic hit, were only starting to look at agile practices and things because quite frankly they couldn't hire anyone out of college to work there and they were afraid most of their workforce would retire out. So they're trying to get those people that want to be innovative, the high, the people that graduated top of their class. You're going to need the organization to change. And this is a perfect example of somebody that can come in and be a catalyst for all of that. So if they're coming up with new innovative ideas, if your marketing department wasn't transforming into a highly digital marketing department, they can come help invigorate that, right? And come up with a plan to get people in but also to train the people that are there that do want to learn these new skills in order bring the whole organization along with them. And I think they can have a huge impact if they, and get those innovative culture cycles changing. >> I'm curious if you think that, you know, given the last year and the amount of uncertainty that the pandemic has brought to the market, to the economy, now some of the challenges that leaders say, we're still going to have similar challenges in 2021. We still have a good percentage of our workforce remote. Is the role that the Chief Digital Officer can play, is that potentially going to help companies, really, is it going to help make a difference between those companies that really, not just survive this time but thrive like the winners versus the losers of tomorrow? >> I think it can, right? And a lot of this is going to be how the people that hire in the Chief Digital Officer and how much that team is willing to work with them. One of the things that we notice is the companies that do advance their culture a lot and advance in their customer centricity, the leadership level of the organization acts as a team as much as they expect to the frontline crews to act as teams. So you've got to be working together. And that goes all the way through, right? Your HR departments can't be incenting one group to work against another. You can't incent two people to have a goal, you know, to reach a goal in a different way and incent them differently so that they end up working against each other, right? This has to start being a real collaborative effort and it'll end up impacting the entire organization. But it's those companies that start looking at their leadership organization as a team, where they're all playing to make the same goals, to make their customers the most successful they can be. That's when you really start getting those changes and you really see a Chief Digital Officer having an impact versus those organizations where, you know, they'll be on the job for two to three years and it'll just go away because they've, you know, fought against themselves and not form that team culture. >> The impact is, can be tremendous from what I'm hearing. When we think about digital transformation, you know, people, processes, technology, that culture that's so important, we're also talking about that in the context of how do organizations use all their data and make the most sense of it. As more data sources become available, data's coming in faster, how does the Chief Digital Officer align with all of the data folks within an organization so that they can all have access to the right information to make data-driven decisions that are really for internal and externally looking benefits? >> Right, they can help make sense of the data that the company is collecting. One of the main things we're hearing right now is a lot of organizations are collecting a ton of data and they're either, you know, having some organization that creates metrics out of it. And that group just doesn't know really what the business does. They're relatively new to the business as a lot of data organizations are. So they go grab standard metrics and just provide, you know, shove as many metrics out. That's their output point, right? Where they get brownie points for every metric they create. And so we're hearing from a lot of leaders that, that they're getting literally hundreds of metrics a month and they have no idea what they're supposed to be doing with them or what this data is supposed to be showing them. And that's really of no benefit to anybody, right? It's a waste of time all through the organization. So the Chief Digital Officer, again, will be looking at what are the right business metrics to be tracking for that business and be working with those data officers to get the right innovation in so that you can see how well you're transforming, how well your company is actually doing, how much your customers actually do like what you're creating and the impact of the changes that you're making. So another thing we're being asked a lot of is, you know, I'm funding things and I'm being told they'll provide my customers value but when they get released I have no idea if they are, right? And the Chief Data Officer will help, be putting all the metrics that tie that in and showing telemetry gets built in. So that they've got the metrics that you need to truly run your business well. And so again, that'll be another part of the organization that the Chief Digital Officer would be working with. Along with the CIO, they'll be working with the data organizations as well. >> Well, there's so much opportunity that the chief Digital Officer role can deliver and unlock value in an organization as you've talked about. It'll be interesting, Laureen to see what happens in the next 12 months. Do we see what Gartner's predicting, 67% of companies are going to be adopting this role. I'm curious to see what the BizOps Coalition finds in the next year or so but thank you for sharing this insight. And this definitely sounds like a role where every day will be interesting, unique and not boring. (gentle upbeat music)

>>Well, good day and welcome back to the cube as we continue our segment featuring AWS star showcase we're with now Mike Bilodeau, who's in corporate development and operations at Kong. Mike, uh, thank you for joining us here on the cube and particularly on the startup showcase. Nice to have you and pong represented here today. Thanks for having me, John. Great to be here. You bet. All right, first off, let's just tell us about pong a little bit and, and, uh, con cadet, which I know is your, your feature program, um, or, um, service. Oh, I love the name by the way. Um, but tell us a little bit about home and then what connect is all about to? Sure. So, uh, Kong as a company really came about in the past five years, our two co-founders came over from Italy in, uh, in the late, in the late aughts, early 20 teens and, uh, had a company called Mashape. >>And so what they were looking at and what they were betting on at that time was that API APIs, uh, were going to be the future of how software was built and how developers interacted with software. And so what came from that was a piece of, uh, they were running that shape as a marketplace at the time. So connecting developers sit in for an API so they can consume them and use them to build new software. And what they found was that actually the most valuable piece of technology that they created was the backbone for running that marketplace. And that backbone is what Kong is. And so they created it to be able to handle a massive amount of traffic, a massive amount of API APIs, all simultaneously. This is a problem that a lot of enterprises have, especially now that we've started to get some microservices, uh, started to, to have more distributed technologies. >>And so what Kong is really is it's a way to manage all of those different API APIs, all of the connections between different microservices, uh, through a single platform, which is called connect. And now that we've started to have Coobernetti's, uh, the, sort of the birth and the, the nascent space of service mesh con connect allows all of those connections to be managed and to be secured and made reliable, uh, through a single platform. So what's driving this right. I mean, um, you, you mentioned micro services, um, and Coobernetti's, and that environment, which is kind of facilitating, you know, this, uh, I guess transformation you might say. Um, but what's the big driver in your opinion, in terms of, of what's pushing this microservices phenomenon, if you will, or this revolution. Sure. And when I think it starts out at, at the simple active of technology acceleration in general, um, so when you look at just the, the real shifts that have come in enterprise, uh, especially looking, you know, start with that at the cloud, but you could even go back to VMware and virtualization is it's really about allowing people to build software more rapidly. >>Um, all of these different innovations that have happened, you know, with cloud, with virtualization now with containers, Kubernetes, microservices, they're really focused on making it, uh, so that developers can build software a lot more quickly, uh, develop the, the latest and greatest in a more rapid way. >>A huge driver out of this is just making it easier for developers, for organizations to bring new technologies to market. Uh, and we see that as a kind of a key driver in a lot of these decisions that are being made. I think another piece of it that's really coming about is looking at, uh, security, uh, as a really big component, you know, do you have a huge monolithic app? Uh, it can become very challenging to actually secure that if somebody gets into kind of that initial, uh, into the, the initial ops space, they're really past the point of no return and can get access to some things that you might not want them to similar for compliance and governance reasons that becomes challenging. So I think you're seeing this combination of where people are looking at breaking things into smaller pieces, even though it does come with its own challenges around security, um, that you need to manage, it's making it so that, uh, there's less ability to just get in and cause a lot of damage kind of all at once. Often Melissa malicious attackers. >>Yeah. You bring up security. And so, yeah, to me, it's almost, in some cases it's almost counterintuitive. I think about, I've got the, if I got this model, the gap and I've got a big parameter around it, right. And I know that I can confine this thing. I can contain this. This is good. Now microservices, now I got a lot of, it's almost like a lot of villages, right. They're all around. And, and uh, I don't have the castle anymore. I've got all these villages, so I have to build walls around all these villages. Right. But you're saying that there that's actually easier to do, or at least you're more capable of doing that now as opposed to living >>Three years ago. Well, you can almost think of it, uh, as if you have this little just right, and you might, um, if you have one castle and somebody gets inside, they're going to be able to find whatever treasury may have, you know, to extend the analogy here a bit, but now it's different, uh, 50 different villages that, you know, uh, an attacker needs to look in, it starts to become really time-consuming and really difficult. And now when you're looking at, especially this idea of kind of cybersecurity, um, the ability to secure a monolithic app is typically not all that different from what you can do with a microservice or with a once you get past that initial point, instead of thinking of it, you know, I have my one wall around everything, you know, think of it almost as a series of walls where it gets more and more difficult. Again, this all depends on, uh, that you're, you're managing that security well, which can get really time-consuming more than anything else and challenging from a pure management standpoint, but from an actual security posture, it is a way of where you can strengthen it, uh, because you're, you're creating more, um, more difficult ways of accessing information for attackers, as well as just more layers potentially of security. >>But what do you do to lift that burden then from, from the customer? Because like you said, that that that's a concern they really don't want to have. Right. They want, they want you to do that. They want somebody to do that for them. So what can, what do you do to alleviate those kinds of stress >>On their systems? Yeah, it's a great question. And this is really where the idea of API management and, um, in it's in its infancy came from, was thinking about, uh, how do we extract a way these different tasks that people don't really want to do when they're managing, uh, how API, how people can interact with their API APIs, whether that be a device or another human, um, and part of that is just taking away. So what we do and what API gate management tools have always done is abstract that into a, a new piece of software. So instead of having to kind of individually develop and write code for security, for logging, for, you know, routing logic, all these different pieces of how those different APIs will communicate with each other, we're putting that into a single piece of software and we're allowing that to be done in a really easy way. >>And so what we've done now with con connect and where we've extended that to you, is making it even easier to do that at a microservices level of scale. So if you're thinking about hundreds or thousands of different microservices that you understand and be able to manage, that's what we're really building to allow people to do. And so that comes with, you know, being able to, to make it extremely easy, uh, to, to actually add policies like authentication, you know, rate-limiting, whatever it may be, as well as giving people the choice to use what they want to use. Uh, we have great partners, you know, looking at the Datadog's, the Okta's of the world who provide a pretty, pretty incredible product. We don't necessarily want to reinvent the wheel on some of these things that are already out there, and that are widely loved and accepted by, uh, technology, practitioners and developers. We just want to make it really easy to actually use those, uh, those different technologies. And so that's, that's a lot of what we're doing is providing a, a way to make it easy to add this, you know, these policies and this logic into each one of these different services. >>So w if you're providing these kinds of services, right. And, and, and, and they're, they're, they're new, right. Um, and you're merging them sometimes with kind of legacy, uh, components, um, that transition or that interaction I would assume, could be a little complex. And, and you've, you've got your work cut out for you in some regards to kind of retrofit in some respects to make this seamless, to make this smooth. So maybe shine a little light on that process in terms of not throwing all the, you know, the bath out, you know, with, with the baby, all the water here, but just making sure it all works right. And that it makes it simple and, and, um, takes away that kind of complexity that people might be facing. >>Yeah, that's really the name of the game. Uh, we, we do not believe that there is a one size fits all approach in general, to how people should build software. Uh, there are going to need instances aware of building a monolithic app. It makes the most sense. There are going to be instances where building on Kubernetes makes the most sense. Um, the key thing that we want to solve is making sure that it works and that you're able to, to make the best technical decision for your products and for your organization. And so in looking at, uh, sort of how we help to solve that problem, I think the first is that we have first class support for everything. So we support, you know, everything down to, to kind of the oldest bare metal servers to NAMS, to containers across the board. Uh, and, and we had that mindset with every product that we brought to market. >>So thinking about our service mesh offering, for instance, um, Kula is the open source project that under tens now are even, but looking at Kumo, one of the first things that we did when we brought it out, because we saw this gap in space was to make sure that that adds first-class support for and chance at the time that wasn't something that was commonly done at all. Uh, now, you know, there there's more people are moving in that direction because they do see it as a need, which is great for the space. Um, but that's something where we, we understand that the important thing is making sure your point, you said it kind of the exact way that we like to, which is it needs to be reliable. It needs work. So I have a huge estate of, you know, older applications, older, uh, you know, potentially environments, even. I might have data centers that might've cloud being, trying to do everything all at once. Isn't really a pragmatic approach. Always. It needs to be able to support the journey as you move to, to a more modern way of building. So in terms of going from on-premise to the cloud, running in a hybrid approach, whatever it may be, all of those things shouldn't be an all or nothing proposition. It should be a phase approach and moving to, to really where it makes sense for your business and for the specific problem >>Talking about cloud deployments, obviously AWS comes into play there in a major way for you guys. Um, tell me a little bit about that, about how you're leveraging that relationship and how you're partnering with them, and then bringing the, the value then to your customer base and kind of how long that's been going on and the kinds of work that you guys are doing together, uh, ultimately to provide this kind of, uh, exemplary product or at least options to your customers. >>Yeah, of course. I think the way that we're doing it first and foremost is that, um, we, we know exactly who AWS is and the space and, and, you know, a great number of our customers are running on AWS. So again, I think that first class support in general for AWS environments services, uh, both from the container service, their, their Kubernetes services, everything that they can have and that they offer to their customers, we want to be able to support, uh, one of the first areas of really that comes to mind in terms of first-class integration and support is thinking about Lambda and serverless. Um, so at the time when we first came out, was that, again, it was early for us, uh, or early in our journey as product and as company, uh, but really early for the space. And so how we were able to support that and how we were able to see, uh, that it could support our vision and, and what we wanted to bring as a value proposition to the market has been, you know, really powerful. So I think in looking at, you know, how we work with AWS, certainly on a partnership level of where we share a lot of the same customers, we share a very similar ethos and wanting to help people do things in the most cost-effective rapid manner possible, and to build the best software. Uh, and, you know, I mean, for us, we have a little bit of a backstory with AWS because Jeffrey's us was a, an early investor in, in common. >>Yeah, exactly. I mean, the, the whole memo that he wrote about, uh, you know, build an API or you're fired was, was certainly an inspiration to, to us and it catalyzed, uh, so much change in, in the technology landscape in general, about how everyone viewed API APIs about building a software that could be reused and, and was composable. And so that's something that, you know, we, we look at, uh, kind of carrying forward and we've been building on that momentum ever since. So, >>Well, I mean, it's just kind of take a, again, a high level, look at this in terms of microservices. And now that it's changing in terms of cloud connectivity. Thank you. Actually, I have a graphic to that. Maybe we can pull up and take a look at this and let's talk about this evolution. You know, what's occurring here a little bit, and, and as we take a look at this, um, tell us what you think those, these impacts are at the end of the day for your customers and how they're better able to provide their services and satisfy their customer needs. >>Absolutely. So this is really the heart of the connect platform and of our vision in general. Um, we'd spoken just a minute ago about thinking how we can support the entire journey or, uh, the, the enterprise reality that is managing a, a relatively complex environment of modelists different services, microservices, you know, circle assumptions, whatever it may be, uh, as well as lots of different deployment methods and underlying tech platforms. You know, if you have, uh, virtual machines and Kubernetes, whatever, again, whatever it may be. But what we look at is just the different sort of, uh, design patterns that can occur in thinking about a monolithic application. And, um, okay. Mainly that's an edge concern of thinking about how you're going to handle connectivity coming in from the edge and looking at a Kubernetes environment of where you're going to have, you know, many Kubernetes clusters that need to be able to communicate with each other. >>That's where we start to think about, uh, our ingress products and Kubernetes ingress that allows for that cross applic, uh, across application communication. And then within the application itself, and looking at service mesh, which we talked a little bit about of just how do I make sure that I can instrument and secure every transaction that's happening in a, a truly microservices, uh, deployment within Kubernetes or outside of it? How do I make sure that that's reliable and secure? And so what we look at is this is just a, uh, part of it is evolution. And part of it is going to be figuring out what works best when it, um, certainly if you're, if you're building something from scratch, it doesn't always make sense to build it, your MDP, as, you know, microservices running on Kubernetes. It probably makes sense to go with the shortest path, uh, at the same time, if you're trying to run it at massive scale and big applications and make sure they're as reliable as possible, it very well does make sense to spend the time and the effort to, to make humanize work well for you. >>And I think that's, that's the, the beauty of, of how the space is shifting is that, uh, it's, it's going towards a way of the most practical solution to get towards business value, to, to move software quicker, to give customers the value that they want to delight them to use. Amazon's, uh, you know, phrase ology, if that's, uh, if that's a word, uh, it's, it's something of where, you know, that is becoming more and more standard practice versus just trying to make sure that you're doing the, the latest and greatest for the sake of, of, uh, of doing it. >>So we've been talking about customers in, in rather generic terms in terms of what you're providing them. We talked about new surfaces that are certainly, uh, providing added value and providing them solutions to their problems. Can you give us maybe just a couple of examples of some real life success stories, where, where you've had some success in terms of, of providing services that, um, I assume, um, people needed, or at least maybe they didn't know they needed until, uh, you, you provided that kind of development that, but give us an idea of maybe just, uh, shine, a little light on some success that you've had so that people at home watching this can perhaps relate to that experience and maybe give them a reason to think a little more about calm. >>Yeah, absolutely. Uh, there, there's a number that come to mind, but certainly one of the customers that I spent a lot of time with, uh, you know, become almost friends would be with, uh, with the different, with a couple of the practitioners who work there is company called Cargill. Uh, it's a shared one with us and AWS, you know, it's one we've written about in the past, but this is one of the largest companies in the world. Um, and, uh, the, the way that they describe it is, is that if you've ever eaten a Vic muffin or eaten from McDonald's and had breakfast there, you you've used a Cargill service because they provide so much of the, the food supply chain business and the logistics for it. They had a, uh, it's a, it's an old, you know, it's a century and a half old company. >>It has a really story kind of legacy, and it's grown to be an extremely large company that's so private. Uh, but you know, they have some of the most unique challenges. I think that I've, I've seen in the space in terms of needing to be able to ensure, uh, that they're able to, to kind of move quickly and build a lot of new services and software that touch so many different spaces. So they were, uh, the challenge that was put in front of them was looking at really modernizing, you know, again, a century and a half old company modernizing their entire tech stack. And, you know, we're certainly not all of that in any way, shape or form, but we are something that can help that process quite a bit. And so, as they were migrating to AWS, as they were looking at, you know, creating a CICB process for, for really being able to ship and deploy new software as quickly as possible as they were looking at how they could distribute the, the new API APIs and services that they were building, we were helping them with every piece of that journey, um, by being able to, to make sure that the services that they deployed, uh, performed in the way that they expected them to, we're able to give them a lot of competence and being able to move, uh, more rapidly and move a lot of software over from these tried and true, uh, you know, older or more legacy of doing things to a much more cloud native built as they were looking at using Kubernetes in AWS and, and being able to support that handle scale. >>Again, we are something that was able to, to kind of bridge that gap and make sure that there weren't going to be disruptions. So there, there are a lot of kind of great reasons of why they're their numbers really speak for themselves in terms of how, uh, how much velocity they were able to get. You know, they saying them saying them out loud on the sense fake in some cases, um, because they were able to, you know, I think like something, something around the order of 20 X, the amount of new API APIs and services that they were building over a six month period, really kind of crazy crazy numbers. Um, but it is something where, you know, the, for us, we, we got a lot out of them because they were open source users. So calling is first and foremost, an open source company. >>And so they were helping us before they even became paying customers, uh, just by testing the software and providing feedback, really putting it through its paces and using it at a scale that's really hard to replicate, you know, the scale of a, uh, a couple of hundred thousand person company, right? Yeah. Talking about a win-win yeah. That worked out well. It's certainly the proof is in the pudding and I'm sure that's just one of many examples of success that you've had. Uh, we appreciate the time here and certainly the insights and wish you well on down the road. Thanks for joining us, Mike. Thanks, Sean. Thanks for having me. I've been speaking with Mike Villa from Kong. He is in corporate development and operations there on John Walls, and you're watching on the cube, the AWS startup showcase.

(upbeat music) >> Well, thank you for joining us here as we continue our Cube Conversation on the AWS startup showcase with Marco Palladino who is the CTO of Kong. And Marco, also a co-founder by the way, Marco, thank you for joining us here on theCUBE. It's good to have you with us. >> Thank you, John, for having me. >> You bet, absolutely. First off, for our visitors and our viewers who might not be too familiar with Kong, tell us a little bit about what you're up to and your core competencies, of which I know are many. >> Yeah, Kong is a cloud connectivity company. We provide the technology software that developers and enterprise organizations all over the world can use to connect securely their software, and their microservices, and their APIs together. So we're really executing here on being the Cisco of L4 and L7. >> Yeah, great analogy. A really good analogy. So when you are talking about microservices, obviously this is a pretty new space, or certainly a growing space, in terms of deployments and different technologies. How come, like where's this come from, basically the whole microservice notion and concept? >> Yeah, it's a very interesting concept. In 2013 and 2014 there was a market transition in the landscape. Docker was released in 2013. Kubernetes was released in 2014. And Docker and Kubernetes together really have unleashed a new era of microservices across pretty much every organization in the world. We know that if we are trying to grow a business we must iterate fast ship, new products faster. We must be reliable. We must be distributed decoupled. And to do that, monolithic applications, which is the previous way of building modern software, monolithic applications, doesn't really scale that well in a distributed world. And so with microservices, running on top of Kubernetes containerized with Docker, we can now decouple our software and run it in a faster, better, more reliable way across pretty much any cloud vendor in the world. And as a result of that, we can enter new markets faster. We can make our users happier by shipping fixes and features faster. And therefore we can grow the business. That's why microservices really have been adopted across the board. >> So let's dive into that a little deeper here in terms of the value proposition, because, just because you could do something obviously isn't what the reason why you should do it. There is value at the end of the day that you're delivering, a new value. So summarize that a little bit for, again, a perspective customer who might be watching right now, somebody that you want to talk to about these new services these new values that they can enjoy. Why they be thinking about Kong? Why should they be thinking about microservices? >> Yeah, you see, every organization in the world is becoming digital. And we've discovered that, a few years ago, with digital transformation 1.0, as I call it. And in that digital transformation, we have realized that in order for us to build a successful software, in order for us to grow our business, we really must be able to innovate quicker. We must be able to create and ship new products faster. We must be able to duplicate our workloads across multiple regions and cloud vendors so that we can target our users with low latency and with the quickest performance we can possibly get. Now, in order to do that the monolithic applications we used to build they don't do that that well. monolithic applications, as they grow, they become huge, hard to move, hard to scale, hard, to deploy, hard to innovate. And we, as an industry, have learned that if we can decouple those large monolithic applications into smaller components, like microservices, we can then ship and innovate faster. Now, of course, on one end, we ship and deploy faster. On the other end, we are introducing something that our monolithic applications never really had at this scale. And that is this massive connectivity across all the services that make up the final application. Being decoupled and being distributed really means that we are connecting them over the network with service connectivity. And if that service connectivity is not working well then the application is not working. So digital transformation 2.0 really is all about taking our digital business and transforming it, by decoupling it and distributing it, in order for us to build a stronger business. >> So you talked about the monolithic application and there's some simplicity to that though, isn't there? Because now we're introducing multiple layers and a lot of complexity in some respects. Which allows us to do a lot of things really well, but it also introduces challenges. So if you were talking to, again, a prospective customer and they said, "Hey, this all sounds well and good, but what if..?" There are a lot of what ifs out there. How do you address the different challenges or the questions that might be raised in terms of trouble that you're inviting by introducing this new complexity into the marketplace? >> Yeah, the key here is to abstract away all the things that we don't need to build for our business. The key is to focus on what drives our business and that's our users, our customers, the applications that we're building. Everything else that's not part of the core business should be delegated as part of the underlying infrastructure. Likewise, today, when we want to enter a new market we just leverage a cloud vendor. We don't go and build a physical data center from scratch. Likewise, when we build new modern applications, we don't want to build the orchestration platforms by ourselves. We don't want to build the connectivity stack by ourselves. But we want to abstract that away so that our teams can focus on what matters for the business. And that's the users, the customers, the application. It's not building the underlying infrastructure which can be given as a service to the application teams as opposed to asking the teams to build it from scratch. And there's going to be challenges, of course, but there's going to be benefits. And as long as the benefits are bigger than the challenges then it's worth while transitioning to microservices if that can help us scale faster and grow faster. And if anything, with COVID last year, we have learned how important it is for every organization to think about digitalizing in a faster way, in order to keep being in business, as a matter of fact, to keep winning against their competitors. And the organizations that can acquire good knowledge of the underlying tooling to allow them to transform this way, those are the organizations that are going to be succeeding moving forward. >> What do you think is the biggest shift in this paradigm then in terms of this legacy system that we had in place, that worked pretty well, to now We have a much more specialized, instead a much more distributed approach, that is providing these new values and certainly great benefits. But in your mind, what's the biggest shift there, you think, in terms of mindset and in terms of actual deployment? >> Well transitioning to microservices really involves three different transformations and that's why sometimes it can be challenging. It requires transforming our software to microservices. By doing so, it requires us to rethink the operations of how we deploy, run, and test our software. And the third aspect, the third component that it transforms it's the cultural component. And now we can build smaller teams that can work in a decoupled asynchronous way. And as long as they expose an API those teams are going to be very well integrated with the rest of the organization. Look at what companies like Amazon, Netflix, or Google have done. And that's a big cultural shift. Like any large transformation, it is not, there is not one secret ingredient. It's an entire mindset that has to change. Now, thankfully for us, this transition is also being driven by bottom up adoption and transformation that's being driven by open source software. So unlike the previous transformations, these ones, if you wish, it's a self service transformation. Open source ecosystem provides us with a self-service ecosystem of a landscape of tools and platform and technologies that the application teams and the infrastructure teams can go ahead and use in order to figure out what's the best formula for them to achieve their success. >> When you have the, so let's just say, you've got your operation in place and you have multiple communications going on amongst microservices, whatever. It's all well and good. Now you want to introducing yet another. And so are there, not concerns, are there challenges there in bringing a newcomer into that environment in terms of testing, in terms of deployment, because of the factors, the variables that come into play here? How one piece works with another piece won't be the same how it works with another piece, right? So how do you handle testing? How do you handle new deployments in this kind of an environment? >> This is perhaps the most critical cultural change and transformation that microservices bring. With a monolithic application, if the monolith was up and running the business was up and running. If the monolith was down the business was done. Simple, easy. It was clear. It's one-to-one clear to understand. With microservices we're effectively making ourselves comfortable of always running in a partially degraded system. Because there is so much more, so many more moving parts running at the same time they cannot possibly be all up and running at any given point in time. Some of them will be running. Some of them will be slow. Some of them will be not executing. And guess what? Our infrastructure is built in such a way that, even when that happens, the customer and the users will never experience any downtime. This is a chance for us to transition to microservices. It's a chance for us to accelerate the innovation in your organization. But also to accelerate the reliability of our applications and also accelerate the security of our applications. And these may sound counterintuitive. Many technology leaders they're like, "Wait, what do you mean by that? How can you transition to microservices and improve the security if you have so many moving parts in your systems running as opposed to a monolith?" But that's an opportunity for us to improve the security. Because now, unlike the monolith, where everything can consume and access everything else, with microservices we can set up a tighter security rules in place to determine what services can consume what other services and in what capacity? In a monolithic world, as long as the code base is accessible, anybody can do anything that the monolith can do. With microservices it's an opportunity for us to lock that down. And even the past year, we've seen how important that is. The reputational of an entire organization can be destroyed by a high profile breach or attack. And so it's very important for us to catch this opportunity so that we can implement zero trust security. We can implement a consistent, non-fragmented layer of security across all of our applications, not just the Kubernetes ones or the containerized ones, but even the virtual machine based ones. And all the connections that we're generating, that's the backbone of every modern architecture, that's the bread and butter of every microservice oriented application. And that connectivity has to be managed, and secure, and observed, and exposed to our partners, developers, and customers. If that connectivity fails, then our business fails. And so today we can not ask the application teams to build that connectivity for us. That's like asking them to go build an application, and as they're doing that, walking to the data center and physically connecting the switches and the routers to the server racks to build the underlying physical connectivity. We don't, we cannot ask them to do that. The connectivity as well has to be abstracted the same way we are abstracting the data center with platforms like Kubernetes. >> So just back again to security. Obviously, you pointed out, we've had some pretty high profile cases here of late. Well, actually it's probably the past four or five years, but certainly of late, state actors taking actions. So that security mindset that you're in right now it does seem counterintuitive to me. That you have multiple doors, right? In the monolithic environment you've got one big one, right? And you just have to crack the code, and you're in. But in this case, you've got a lot of different entry points but you're saying that you're actually, you can batten down that hatch, if you will. You can provide the protective barrier around all of these microservices in an effective way. >> It's an opportunity for us. I'm a big fan of when John Chambers, the ex CEO of Cisco said, "Whenever there is a threat, how can we think of that as an opportunity?" And really microservices gave us the opportunity to implement a new generation security model for all of our applications. That's tight, that cannot be breaked into. And so that zero trust security, OPA, across the entire organization for both North/South and East/West traffic, for both the gateways and the service meshes. That is, for us, the opportunity to secure our applications in a way that could not be secured before in a monolithic world. Microservices not only create a business advantage but they gave us also many, many different chances for us to improve all the other aspects of security and productivity within your organization. And securing it, that's one of the opportunities that we can not miss. >> Well, Marco thank you for the time. Fascinating work, it really is, revolutionary in many respects. And I wish you continued success at Kong. And thank you for joining us here on the startup showcase. >> Thank you so much. >> Great. John was here talking to the Marco Palladino Who is the CTO and co-founder of Kong. We're talking about the service mesh, that landscape. It is new. It is evolving. And it is certainly a fascinating wrinkle to our world. Thanks for joining us here on theCUBE Conversation. I'm John Walls. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Well, good day and welcome back to the Cube as we continue our segment, featuring AWS Startup Showcase and we're with now Mike Bilodeau who's in corporate development and operations at Kong. Mike, thank you for joining us here on the Cube and particularly on the Startup Showcase. Nice to have you and Kong represented here today. >> Thanks for having me, John. Great to be here. >> You better and first off let's just tell us about Kong a little bit and column cadet which I know is your feature program or service. I love the name by the way, but tell us a little bit about Kong and then what Kong is all about too? >> Sure, so Kong as a company really came about in the past five years. Our two co-founders came over from Italy in the late aughts early to 20 teens and had a company called Mashape. And so what they were looking at and what they were betting on at that time, was that APIs were going to be the future of how software was built and how developers interacted with software. And so what came from that was a piece of they were running Mashape as a marketplace at the time. So connecting developers to different APIs so they can consume them and use them to build new software. And what they found was that actually the most valuable piece of technology that they had created was the backbone for running that marketplace. And that backbone is what Kong is. And so they created it to be able to handle a massive amount of traffic, a massive amount of APIs, all simultaneously. This is a problem that a lot of enterprises have especially now that we've started to get some microservices, started to have more distributed technologies. And so what Kong is really is, it's a way to manage all of those different APIs. All of the connections between different microservices through a single platform which is Kong connect. And now that we've started to have Kubernetes the sort of the birth and the nascent space of service mesh. Kong connect allows all of those connections to be managed and to be secured and made reliable through a single platform. >> So what's driving this, right? I mean you mentioned microservices and Kubernetes and that environment which is kind of facilitating this, I guess transformation you might say. But what's the big driver in your opinion in terms of what's pushing this microservices phenomenon if you will or this revolution? >> Sure, and when I think it starts out at the simple active of technology acceleration in general. So when you look at just the real shifts that have come in enterprise to hack especially looking, you know start with that at the cloud but you could even go back to VMware and virtualization is it's really about allowing people to build software more rapidly. All of these different innovations that have happened with cloud, with virtualization, now with containers, Kubernetes, microservices they're really focused on making it so that developers can build software a lot more quickly. Develop the latest and greatest in a more rapid way. I think a huge driver out of this is just making it easier for developers, for organizations to bring new technologies to market. And we see that as a key driver in a lot of these decisions that are being made. I think another piece of it that's really coming about is looking at security as a really big component. You know we have a huge monolithic app. It can become very challenging to actually secure that. If somebody gets into the initial Ops space they're really past the point of no return and can get access to some things that you might not want them to. Similar for compliance and governance reasons, that becomes challenging. So I think you're seeing this combination of where people are looking at breaking things into smaller pieces, even though it does come with its own challenges around security that you need to manage. It's making it so that there's less ability to just get in and cause a lot of damage all at once from malicious attackers. >> Yeah, you bring up security and so, yeah to me it's almost in some cases it's almost counterintuitive. I think about if I got this model to gap and I've got a big parameter around it, right. And I know that I can confine this thing. I can contain this, this is is good. Now microservices, now got a lot of, it's almost like a lot of villages, right? They're all around. And I don't have the castle anymore. I've got all these villages. So I have to build walls around all these villages. But you're saying that that's actually easier to do or at least you're more capable of doing that now as opposed to maybe where we were two, three years ago. >> Well you can almost think of it as if you have those villages, right. And if you have one castle and somebody gets inside they're going to be able to find whatever treasure you may have you know, to extend the analogy here a bit. But now if you have 50 different villages that an attacker needs to look in it starts to become really time consuming and really difficult. And now when you're looking at, especially this idea of cybersecurity, the ability to secure a monolithic app is typically not all that different from what you can do with a microservice or once you get past that initial point. Instead of thinking of it as, you know I have my one wall around everything you now think of it almost as a series of walls where it gets more and more difficult. Again this all depends on that you're managing that security well which can get really time-consuming more than anything else and challenging from a pure management standpoint. But from an actual security posture it is a way of where you can strengthen it because you're you're creating more difficult ways of accessing information for attackers as well as just more layers potentially of security that they need to get them. >> But what do you do to lift that burden then from the customers because like you said that's a concern they really don't want to have. They want you to do that. They want somebody to do that before them. So what do you do to alleviate those kinds of stresses on their systems? >> Yeah, it's a great question. And this is really where the idea of API management in its infancy came from. Was thinking about, how do we abstract a way these different tasks that people don't really want to do when they're managing how people can interact with their APIs whether that be a device or another human? And part of that is just taking away. So what we do and what API game management tools have always done is abstract that into a new piece of software. So instead of having to kind of individually develop and write code for security, for logging, for routing logic, all these different pieces of how those different APIs will communicate with each other we're putting that into a single piece of software, And we're allowing that to be done in a really easy way. And so what we've done now with Kong connect and where we've extended that to is making it even easier to do that at a microservices level of scale. So if you're thinking about hundreds or thousands of different microservices that you need to understand and be able to manage that's what we're really building to allow people to do. And so that comes with being able to make it extremely easy to actually add policies like authentication, rate limiting whatever it may be as well as giving people the choice to use what they want to use. We have great partners looking at the Datadog's, the Okta's of the world who provide a pretty, pretty incredible product. We don't necessarily want to reinvent the wheel on some of these things that are already out there and that are widely loved and accepted by technology practitioners and developers. We just want to make it really easy to actually use those different technologies. And so that's a lot of what we're doing is providing a a way to make it easy to add these policies and this logic into each one of these different services. >> So what if you're providing these kinds of services and they're new and you're merging them sometimes with kind of legacy components? That transition or that interaction I would assume could be a little complex. And you've got your work cut out for you in some regards to kind of retrofit, right? In some respects to make this seamless, to make this smooth. So maybe you shine a little light on that process in terms of not throwing all the bath out with the baby or the water here, but just making sure it all works. And that it makes it simple and takes away that kind of complexity that people might be facing. >> Yeah, that's really the name of the game. We do not believe that there is a one size fits all approach in general to how people should build software. There are going to be instances of where building a monolithic app makes the most sense. There are going to be instances where building a Kubernetes makes the most sense. The key thing that we wonna solve is making sure that it works and that you're able to make the best technical decision for your products and for your organization. And so in looking at how we help to solve that problem, I think the first is that we have first-class support for everything. So we support everything down to kind of the oldest bare metal servers, to IBMs to containers across the board. And we've had that mindset with every product that we brought to market. So thinking about our service mesh for instance Kuma is the open-source project that all depends now on an enterprise one. But looking at Kuma, one of the first things that we did when we brought it out because we saw this gap in the space was to make sure that they have first-class support for virtual machines. At the time that wasn't something that was commonly done at all. Now more people are moving in that direction because they do see it as it need which is great for the space. But that's something where we understand that the important thing is making sure your point you said it kind of the exact way that we like to which is it needs to be reliable. It needs to work. So I have a huge estate of older applications, older potentially environments even I might have data centers, I might have cloud been trying to do everything all at once. Isn't really a pragmatic approach always. It needs to be able to support the journey as you move to a more modern way of building. So in terms of going from on-premise to the cloud, running in a hybrid approach, whatever it may be, all of those things shouldn't be an all-or-nothing proposition. It should be a phased approach and moving to really where it makes sense for your business and for the specific product. >> You've been talking about cloud deployments obviously. AWS comes into play there in a major way for you guys. Tell me a little bit about that. About how you're leveraging that relationship and how you're partnering with them and then bringing the value then to your customer base. And how long that's been going on and the kinds of work that you guys are doing together ultimately to provide this kind of exemplary product or at least options to your customers. >> Yeah, of course. I think the way that we're doing it first and foremost is that we know exactly who AWS is in the space. And great number of our customers are running on AWS. So again, I think that first-class support in general for AWS environments, services both from the container service, their Kubernetes services, everything that they can have and that they offer to their customers we wonna be able to support. One of the first areas really that comes to mind in terms of first-class integration and support is thinking about Lambda and serverless. So at the time when we first came out with that, again it was early for us or early in our journey as product and as company, but really early for the space. And so how we were able to support that and how we were able to see that it could support our vision and what we wanted to bring as a value proposition to the market has been really powerful. So I think in looking at how we work with AWS certainly on a partnership level of where we share a lot of the same customers we share a very similar ethos and wanting to help people do things in the most cost-effective rapid manner possible and to build the best software. And I mean for us we have a little bit of a backstory with AWS 'cause Jeff Bezos was an early investor in Kong. >> That didn't hurt really. Yeah exactly, I mean the whole memo that he wrote about build an API or you're fired was certainly an inspiration to us. And just it catalyzed so much change in the technology landscape in general about how everyone viewed APIs about building a software that could be reused and and was composable. And so that's something that we look at and kind of carry it forward and we've been building on that momentum ever since. >> So I'm going to just kind of take, again a high level. Look at this in terms of microservices and how that's changing in terms of cloud connectivity. Think you actually have a graphic too that maybe we can pull up and take a look at this and let's talk about this evolution. What's occurring here a little bit and as we take a look at this tell us what you think these impacts are at the end of the day for your customers and how they're better able to provide their services and satisfy their customer needs. >> Absolutely, so this is really the heart of the connect platform and of our vision in general. We've spoken just a minute ago about thinking how we can support the entire journey or the enterprise reality that is managing a relatively complex environment of monoliths, different services, microservices, serverless functions, whatever it may be as well as lots of different deployment methods and underlying tech platforms. If you have virtual machines and Kubernetes whatever it may be. But what we look at is just the different design patterns that can occur in thinking about a monolithic application. Okay, mainly that's an edge concern of thinking about how you going to handle connectivity coming in from the edge in looking at a Kubernetes environment of where you going to have many Kubernetes clusters that need to be able to communicate with each other. That's where we start to think about our ingress products and Kubernetes ingress that allows for that cross application communication. And then within the application itself and looking at service mesh which we talked a little bit about of just how do I make sure that I can instrument and secure every transaction that's happening in a truly microservices deployment within Kubernetes or outside of it? How do I make sure that that's reliable and secure? And so what we look at is part of it is evolution. And part of it is going to be figuring out what works best when. Certainly if you're building something from scratch it doesn't always make sense to build it. Your MDP as microservices running on Kubernetes it probably makes sense to go with the shortest path. At the same time if you're trying to run it at massive scale and big applications and make sure they're as reliable as possible it very well does make sense to spend the time and the effort to make Kubernetes work well for you. And I think that's the beauty of how the space is shifting is that it's going towards a way of the most practical solution to get towards business value to move software quicker to give customers the value that they want to delight them to use Amazon's phraseology if that's a word. It's something that is becoming more and more standard practice versus just trying to make sure that you're doing the latest and greatest for the sake of doing it. >> So we've been talking about customers in rather generic terms in terms of what you're providing them. We've talked about new services that are certainly providing added value and providing them with solutions to their problems. Can you give us maybe just a couple of examples of some real life success stories where you've had some success in terms of providing services that I assume people needed or at least maybe they didn't know they needed until you provided that kind of development. But give us an idea, maybe just shine a little light on some success that you've had so that people at home and are watching this can perhaps relate to that experience and maybe give them a reason to think a little more about Kong and Kong connect. >> Yeah, absolutely, there's a number that come to mind but certainly one of the customers that I have spent a lot of time with, become almost friends with a couple of the practitioners who work there, is company called Cargill. It's a shared one with us and AWS. It's one we've written about in the past but this is one of the largest companies in the world. And the way that they describe it as is that if you've ever eaten a McMuffin or eaten from McDonald's and had breakfast there, you've used a Cargill service because they provide so much of the food supply chain business and the logistics for it. You know, it's a century and a half old company. It has a really story and a legacy and it's grown to be an extremely large company that's still private. But they have some of the most unique challenges, I think that I've seen in the space in terms of needing to be able to ensure that they're able to kind of move quickly and build a lot of new services and software that touch so many different spaces. So the challenge that was put in front of them was looking at really modernizing a century and a half old company. Modernizing their entire tech stack. And we're certainly not all of that in any way shape or form but we are something that can help that process quite a bit. And so as they were migrating to AWS as they were looking at creating a CICB process for really being able to shape and deploy new software as quickly as possible. As they were looking at how they could distribute the new APIs and services that they were building, we were helping them with every piece of that journey by being able to to make sure that the services that they deployed performed in the way that they expected them to. We're able to give them a lot of confidence in being able to move more rapidly and move a lot of software over from these tried and true older or more legacy ways of doing things to a much more cloud native build. As they were looking at using Kubernetes in AWS and being able to support that handle scale, again we're something that was able to kind of bridge that gap and make sure that there weren't going to be disruptions. So there are a lot of great reasons of why their numbers really speak for themselves in terms of how much velocity they were able to get. Saying them out loud will sound fake in some cases because they were able to, you know, I think like something around the order of 20 X the amount of new APIs and services that they were building over a six month period. Really kind of crazy, crazy numbers. But it is something where, for us we got a lot out of them because they were open-source users. So Kong is first and foremost an open-source company. And so they were helping us before they even became paying customers. Just by testing the software, providing feedback, really putting it through its paces and using it at a scale that's really hard to replicate. You know the scale of a couple of hundred thousand person company, yeah. >> Talk about a win-win. That worked out well. Certainly the proof is in the pudding and I'm sure that's just one of many examples of success that you've had. We appreciate the time here and certainly the insights and I wish you well on down the road. Thanks for joining us Mike. >> Thanks John, thanks for having me. >> Been peaking with Mike Bilodeau from Kong. He is in corporate development and operations there. I'm John Walls and you're watching "On the Cube" the AWS Startup Showcase. (soft music)

(upbeat music) >> Well, thank you for joining us here as we continue our Cube Conversation on the AWS startup showcase with Marco Palladino who is the CTO of Kong. And Marco, also a co-founder by the way, Marco, thank you for joining us here on theCUBE. It's good to have you with us. >> Thank you, John, for having me. >> You bet, absolutely. First off, for our visitors and our viewers who might not be too familiar with Kong, tell us a little bit about what you're up to and your core competencies, of which I know are many. >> Yeah, Kong is a cloud connectivity company. We provide the technology software that developers and enterprise organizations all over the world can use to connect securely their software, and their microservices, and their APIs together. So we're really executing here on being the Cisco of L4 and L7. >> Yeah, great analogy. A really good analogy. So when you are talking about microservices, obviously this is a pretty new space, or certainly a growing space, in terms of deployments and different technologies. How come, like where's this come from, basically the whole microservice notion and concept? >> Yeah, it's a very interesting concept. In 2013 and 2014 there was a market transition in the landscape. Docker was released in 2013. Kubernetes was released in 2014. And Docker and Kubernetes together really have unleashed a new era of microservices across pretty much every organization in the world. We know that if we are trying to grow a business we must iterate fast ship, new products faster. We must be reliable. We must be distributed decoupled. And to do that, monolithic applications, which is the previous way of building modern software, monolithic applications, doesn't really scale that well in a distributed world. And so with microservices, running on top of Kubernetes containerized with Docker, we can now decouple our software and run it in a faster, better, more reliable way across pretty much any cloud vendor in the world. And as a result of that, we can enter new markets faster. We can make our users happier by shipping fixes and features faster. And therefore we can grow the business. That's why microservices really have been adopted across the board. >> So let's dive into that a little deeper here in terms of the value proposition, because, just because you could do something obviously isn't what the reason why you should do it. There is value at the end of the day that you're delivering, a new value. So summarize that a little bit for, again, a perspective customer who might be watching right now, somebody that you want to talk to about these new services these new values that they can enjoy. Why they be thinking about Kong? Why should they be thinking about microservices? >> Yeah, you see, every organization in the world is becoming digital. And we've discovered that, a few years ago, with digital transformation 1.0, as I call it. And in that digital transformation, we have realized that in order for us to build a successful software, in order for us to grow our business, we really must be able to innovate quicker. We must be able to create and ship new products faster. We must be able to duplicate our workloads across multiple regions and cloud vendors so that we can target our users with low latency and with the quickest performance we can possibly get. Now, in order to do that the monolithic applications we used to build they don't do that that well. monolithic applications, as they grow, they become huge, hard to move, hard to scale, hard, to deploy, hard to innovate. And we, as an industry, have learned that if we can decouple those large monolithic applications into smaller components, like microservices, we can then ship and innovate faster. Now, of course, on one end, we ship and deploy faster. On the other end, we are introducing something that our monolithic applications never really had at this scale. And that is this massive connectivity across all the services that make up the final application. Being decoupled and being distributed really means that we are connecting them over the network with service connectivity. And if that service connectivity is not working well then the application is not working. So digital transformation 2.0 really is all about taking our digital business and transforming it, by decoupling it and distributing it, in order for us to build a stronger business. >> So you talked about the monolithic application and there's some simplicity to that though, isn't there? Because now we're introducing multiple layers and a lot of complexity in some respects. Which allows us to do a lot of things really well, but it also introduces challenges. So if you were talking to, again, a prospective customer and they said, "Hey, this all sounds well and good, but what if..?" There are a lot of what ifs out there. How do you address the different challenges or the questions that might be raised in terms of trouble that you're inviting by introducing this new complexity into the marketplace? >> Yeah, the key here is to abstract away all the things that we don't need to build for our business. The key is to focus on what drives our business and that's our users, our customers, the applications that we're building. Everything else that's not part of the core business should be delegated as part of the underlying infrastructure. Likewise, today, when we want to enter a new market we just leverage a cloud vendor. We don't go and build a physical data center from scratch. Likewise, when we build new modern applications, we don't want to build the orchestration platforms by ourselves. We don't want to build the connectivity stack by ourselves. But we want to abstract that away so that our teams can focus on what matters for the business. And that's the users, the customers, the application. It's not building the underlying infrastructure which can be given as a service to the application teams as opposed to asking the teams to build it from scratch. And there's going to be challenges, of course, but there's going to be benefits. And as long as the benefits are bigger than the challenges then it's worth while transitioning to microservices if that can help us scale faster and grow faster. And if anything, with COVID last year, we have learned how important it is for every organization to think about digitalizing in a faster way, in order to keep being in business, as a matter of fact, to keep winning against their competitors. And the organizations that can acquire good knowledge of the underlying tooling to allow them to transform this way, those are the organizations that are going to be succeeding moving forward. >> What do you think is the biggest shift in this paradigm then in terms of this legacy system that we had in place, that worked pretty well, to now We have a much more specialized, instead a much more distributed approach, that is providing these new values and certainly great benefits. But in your mind, what's the biggest shift there, you think, in terms of mindset and in terms of actual deployment? >> Well transitioning to microservices really involves three different transformations and that's why sometimes it can be challenging. It requires transforming our software to microservices. By doing so, it requires us to rethink the operations of how we deploy, run, and test our software. And the third aspect, the third component that it transforms it's the cultural component. And now we can build smaller teams that can work in a decoupled asynchronous way. And as long as they expose an API those teams are going to be very well integrated with the rest of the organization. Look at what companies like Amazon, Netflix, or Google have done. And that's a big cultural shift. Like any large transformation, it is not, there is not one secret ingredient. It's an entire mindset that has to change. Now, thankfully for us, this transition is also being driven by bottom up adoption and transformation that's being driven by open source software. So unlike the previous transformations, these ones, if you wish, it's a self service transformation. Open source ecosystem provider us with a self-service ecosystem of a landscape of tools and platform and technologies that the application teams and the infrastructure teams can go ahead and use in order to figure out what's the best formula for them to achieve their success. >> When you have the, so let's just say, you've got your operation in place and you have multiple communications going on amongst microservices, whatever. It's all well and good. Now you want to introducing yet another. And so are there, not concerns, are there challenges there in bringing a newcomer into that environment in terms of testing, in terms of deployment, because of the factors, the variables that come into play here? How one piece works with another piece won't be the same how it works with another piece, right? So how do you handle testing? How do you handle new deployments in this kind of an environment? >> This is perhaps the most critical cultural change and transformation that microservices bring. With a monolithic application, if the monolith was up and running the business was up and running. If the monolith was down the business was done. Simple, easy. It was clear. It's one-to-one clear to understand. With microservices we're effectively making ourselves comfortable of always running in a partially degraded system. Because there is so much more, so many more moving parts running at the same time they cannot possibly be all up and running at any given point in time. Some of them will be running. Some of them will be slow. Some of them will be not executing. And guess what? Our infrastructure is built in such a way that, even when that happens, the customer and the users will never experience any downtime. This is a chance for us to transition to microservices. It's a chance for us to accelerate the innovation in your organization. But also to accelerate the reliability of our applications and also accelerate the security of our applications. And these may sound counterintuitive. Many technology leaders they're like, "Wait, what do you mean by that? How can you transition to microservices and improve the security if you have so many moving parts in your systems running as opposed to a monolith?" But that's an opportunity for us to improve the security. Because now, unlike the monolith, where everything can consume and access everything else, with microservices we can set up a tighter security rules in place to determine what services can consume what other services and in what capacity? In a monolithic world, as long as the code base is accessible, anybody can do anything that the monolith can do. With microservices it's an opportunity for us to lock that down. And even the past year, we've seen how important that is. The reputational of an entire organization can be destroyed by a high profile breach or attack. And so it's very important for us to catch this opportunity so that we can implement zero trust security. We can implement a consistent, non-fragmented layer of security across all of our applications, not just the Kubernetes ones or the containerized ones, but even the virtual machine based ones. And all the connections that we're generating, that's the backbone of every modern architecture, that's the bread and butter of every microservice oriented application. And that connectivity has to be managed, and secure, and observed, and exposed to our partners, developers, and customers. If that connectivity fails, then our business fails. And so today we can not ask the application teams to build that connectivity for us. That's like asking them to go build an application, and as they're doing that, walking to the data center and physically connecting the switches and the routers to the server racks to build the underlying physical connectivity. We don't, we cannot ask them to do that. The connectivity as well has to be abstracted the same way we are abstracting the data center with platforms like Kubernetes. >> So just back again to security. Obviously, you pointed out, we've had some pretty high profile cases here of late. Well, actually it's probably the past four or five years, but certainly of late, state actors taking actions. So that security mindset that you're in right now it does seem counterintuitive to me. That you have multiple doors, right? In the monolithic environment you've got one big one, right? And you just have to crack the code, and you're in. But in this case, you've got a lot of different entry points but you're saying that you're actually, you can batten down that hatch, if you will. You can provide the protective barrier around all of these microservices in an effective way. >> It's an opportunity for us. I'm a big fan of when John Chambers, the ex CEO of Cisco said, "Whenever there is a threat, how can we think of that as an opportunity?" And really microservices gave us the opportunity to implement a new generation security model for all of our applications. That's tight, that cannot be breaked into. And so that zero trust security, OPA, across the entire organization for both North/South and East/West traffic, for both the gateways and the service meshes. That is, for us, the opportunity to secure our applications in a way that could not be secured before in a monolithic world. Microservices not only create a business advantage but they gave us also many, many different chances for us to improve all the other aspects of security and productivity within your organization. And securing it, that's one of the opportunities that we can not miss. >> Well, Marco thank you for the time. Fascinating work, it really is, revolutionary in many respects. And I wish you continued success at Kong. And thank you for joining us here on the startup showcase. >> Thank you so much. >> Great. John was here talking to the Marco Palladino Who is the CTO and co-founder of Kong. We're talking about the service mesh, that landscape. It is new. It is evolving. And it is certainly a fascinating wrinkle to our world. Thanks for joining us here on theCUBE Conversation. I'm John Walls. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of Dell Technologies. World Digital Experience Brought to You by Dell Technologies. >>Welcome to the Cubes Coverage of Dell Technologies World 2020. The digital coverage Find Lisa Martin And then we started to be talking with one of Dell Technologies customers. Earth Camp. Joining Me is built sharp, the senior VP of product development and strategy from Earth Camp Phil, Welcome to the Cube. >>Thank you so much. >>So talk to me a little bit. About what Earth Cam does this very interesting Web can technology? You guys have tens of thousands of cameras and sensors all over the globe give her audience and understanding of what you guys are all about. >>Sure thing. The world's leading provider of Webcam technologies and mentioned content services were leaders and live streaming time lapse imaging primary focus in the vertical construction. So a lot of these, the most ambitious, largest construction projects around the world, you see, these amazing time lapse movies were capturing all of that imagery. You know, basically, around the clock of these cameras are are sending all of that image content to us when we're generating these time lapse movies from it. >>You guys, you're headquartered in New Jersey and I was commenting before we went live about your great background. So you're actually getting to be on site today? >>Yes, Yes, that's where lives from our headquarters in Upper Saddle River, New Jersey. >>Excellent. So in terms of the types of information that you're capturing. So I was looking at the website and see from a construction perspective or some of the big projects you guys have done the Hudson Yards, the Panama Canal expansion, the 9 11 Museum. But you talked about one of the biggest focus is that you have is in the construction industry in terms of what type of data you're capturing from all of these thousands of edge devices give us a little bit of insight into how much data you're capturing high per day, how it gets from the edge, presumably back to your court data center for editing. >>Sure, and it's not just construction were also in travel, hospitality, tourism, security, architectural engineering, basically, any any industry that that need high resolution visualization of their their projects or their their performance or of their, you know, product flow. So it's it's high resolution documentation is basically our business. There are billions of files in the isil on system right now. We are ingesting millions of images a month. We are also creating very high resolution panoramic imagery where we're taking hundreds and sometimes multiple hundreds of images, very high resolution images and stitching these together to make panoramas that air up to 30 giga pixel, sometimes typically around 1 to 2 giga pixel. But that composite imagery Eyes represents millions of images per per month coming into the storage system and then being, uh, stitched together to those those composites >>the millions of images coming in every month. You mentioned Isil on talk to me a little bit about before you were working with Delhi, EMC and Power Scale. How are you managing this massive volume of data? >>Sure we had. We've used a number of other enterprise storage systems. It was really nothing was as easy to manage Azazel on really is there was there was a lot of a lot of problems with overhead, the amount of time necessary from a systems administrator resource standpoint, you to manage that, uh, and and it's interesting with the amount of data that we handle. This is being billions of relatively small files there there, you know, half a megabyte to a couple of megabytes each. It's an interesting data profile, which, which isil on really is well suited for. >>So if we think about some of the massive changes that we've all been through the last in 2020 what are some of the changes that that Earth Kemp has seen with respect to the needs for organizations? Or you mentioned other industries, like travel hospitality? Since none of us could get to these great travel destinations, Have you seen a big drive up in the demand and the need to process data more data faster? >>Yeah, that's an injury interesting point with with the Pandemic. Obviously we had to pivot and move a lot of people toe working from home, which we were able to do pretty quickly. But there's also an interesting opportunity that arose from this, where so many of our customers and other people also have to do the same. And there is an increased demand for our our technology so people can remotely collaborate. They can. They can work at a distance. They can stay at home and see what's going on in these projects sites. So we really so kind of an uptick in the in the need for our products and services. And we've also created Cem basically virtual travel applications. We have an application on the Amazon Fire TV, which is the number one app in the travel platform of people can kind of virtually travel when they can't really get out there. So it's, uh, we've been doing kind of giving back Thio to people that are having having some issues with being able to travel around. We've done the fireworks of the Washington Mall around the Statue of Liberty for the July 4th, and this year will be Webcasting and New Year's in Times Square for our 25th year, actually. So again, helping people travel virtually and be, uh, maintain can be collectivity with with each other and with their projects, >>which is so essential during these times, where for the last 67 months everyone is trying to get a sense of community, and most of us just have the Internet. So I also heard you guys were available on Apple TV, someone to fire that up later and maybe virtually travel. Um, but tell me a little bit about how working in conjunction with Delta Technologies and Power Cell How is that enabled you to manage this massive volume change you've experienced this year? Because, as you said, it's also about facilitating collaboration, which is largely online these days. >>Yeah, I mean, the the great things they're working with Dell has been just our confidence in this infrastructure. Like I said, the other systems we worked with in the past we've always found ourselves kind of second guessing. Obviously, resolutions are increasing. The camera performance is increasing. Streaming video is everything is is constantly getting bigger and better, faster. Maurits And we're always innovating. We found ourselves on previous storage platforms having to really kind of go back and look at the second guess we're at with it With with this, this did L infrastructure. That's been it's been fantastic. We don't really have to think about that as much. We just continue innovating everything scales as we needed to dio. It's it's much easier to work with, >>so you've got power scale at your core data center in New Jersey. Tell me a little bit about how data gets from thes tens of thousands of devices at the edge, back to your editors for editing and how power scale facilitates faster editing, for example. >>Basically, you imagine every one of these cameras on It's not just camera. We have mobile applications. We have fixed position of robotic cameras. There's all these different data acquisition systems were integrating with weather sensors and different types of telemetry. All of that data is coming back to us over the Internet, so these are all endpoints in our network. Eso that's that's constantly being ingested into our network and say WTO. I salon the big the big thing that's really been a timesaver Working with the video editors is, instead of having to take that content, move it into an editing environment where we have we have a whole team of award winning video editors. Creating these time lapse is we don't need to keep moving that around. We're working natively on Iselin clusters. They're doing their editing, their subsequent edits. Anytime we have to update or change these movies as a project evolves, that's all it happened right there on that live environment on the retention. Is there if we have to go back later on all of our customers, data is really kept within that 11 area. It's consolidated, its secure. >>I was looking at the Del Tech website. There's a case study that you guys did earth campaign with Deltek saying that the video processing time has been reduced 20%. So that's a pretty significant increase. I could imagine what the volumes changing so much now but on Li not only is huge for your business, but to the demands that your customers have as well, depending on where there's demands are coming from >>absolutely and and just being able to do that a lot faster and be more nimble allows us to scale. We've added actually against speaking on this pandemic, we've actually added person who we've been hiring people. A lot of those people are working remotely, as as we've stated before on it's just with the increase in business. We have to continue to keep building on that on this storage environments been been great. >>Tell me about what you guys really kind of think about with respect to power scale in terms of data management, not storage management and what that difference means to your business. >>Well, again, I mean number number one was was really eliminating the amount of resource is amount of time we have to spend managing it. We've almost eliminated any downtime of any of any kind. We have greater storage density, were able to have better visualization on how our data is being used, how it's being access so as thes as thes things, a revolving. We really have good visibility on how the how the storage system is being used in both our production and our and also in our backup environments. It's really, really easy for us Thio to make our business decisions as we innovate and change processes, having that continual visibility and really knowing where we stand. >>And you mentioned hiring folks during the pandemic, which is fantastic but also being able to do things much in a much more streamlined way with respect to managing all of this data. But I am curious in terms of of innovation and new product development. What have you been able to achieve because you've got more resource is presumably to focus on being more innovative rather than managing storage >>well again? It's were always really pushing the envelope of what the technology can do. As I mentioned before, we're getting things into, you know, 20 and 30 Giga pixel. You know, people are talking about megapixel images were stitching hundreds of these together. We've we're just really changing the way imagery is used, uh, both in the time lapse and also just in archival process. Ah, lot of these things we've done with the interior. You know, we have this virtual reality product where you can you can walk through and see in the 3 60 bubble. We're taking that imagery, and we're combining it with with these been models who are actually taking the three D models of the construction site and combining it with the imagery. And we can start doing things to visualize progress and different things that are happening on the site. Look for clashes or things that aren't built like they're supposed to be built, things that maybe aren't done on the proper schedule or things that are maybe ahead of schedule, doing a lot of things to save people, time and money on these construction sites. We've also introduced a I machine learning applications into directly into the workflow in this in the storage environment. So we're detecting equipment and people and activities in the site where a lot of that would have been difficult with our previous infrastructure, it really is seamless and working with YSL on now. >>Imagine, by being able to infuse AI and machine learning, you're able to get insight faster to be ableto either respond faster to those construction customers, for example, or alert them. If perhaps something isn't going according to plan. >>A lot of it's about schedule. It's about saving money about saving time and again, with not as many people traveling to the sites, they really just have have constant visualization of what's going on. Day to day, we're detecting things like different types of construction equipment and things that are happening on the side. We're partnering with people that are doing safety analytics and things of that nature. So these these are all things that are very important to construction sites. >>What are some of the things as we are rounding out the calendar year 2020? What are some of the things that you're excited about going forward in 2021? That Earth cam is going to be able to get into and to deliver >>it, just MAWR and more people really, finally seeing the value. I mean, I've been doing this for 20 years, and it's just it's it's It's amazing how we're constantly seeing new applications and more people understanding how valuable these visual tools are. That's just a fantastic thing for us because we're really trying to create better lives through visual information. We're really helping people with things they can do with this imagery. That's what we're all about that's really exciting to us in a very challenging environment right now is that people are are recognizing the need for this technology and really starting to put it on a lot more projects. >>Well, it's You can kind of consider an essential service, whether or not it's a construction company that needs to manage and oversee their projects, making sure they're on budget on schedule, as you said, Or maybe even just the essential nous of helping folks from any country in the world connect with a favorite favorite travel location or sending the right to help. From an emotional perspective, I think the essential nous of what you guys are delivering is probably even more impactful now, don't you think? >>Absolutely and again about connecting people and when they're at home. And recently we we webcast the president's speech from the Flight 93 9 11 observation from the memorial. There was something where the only the immediate families were allowed to travel there. We webcast that so people could see that around the world we have documented again some of the biggest construction projects out there. The new rate years greater stadium was one of the recent ones, uh, is delivering this kind of flagship content. Wall Street Journal is to use some of our content recently to really show the things that have happened during the pandemic in Times Square's. We have these cameras around the world. So again, it's really bringing awareness of letting people virtually travel and share and really remain connected during this this challenging time on and again, we're seeing a really increase demand in the traffic in those areas as well. >>I can imagine some of these things that you're doing that you're achieving now are going to become permanent, not necessarily artifacts of Cove in 19 as you now have the opportunity to reach so many more people and probably the opportunity to help industries that might not have seen the value off this type of video to be able to reach consumers that they probably could never reach before. >>Yeah, I think the whole nature of business and communication and travel on everything is really going to be changed from this point forward. It's really people are looking at things very, very differently and again, seeing the technology really can help with so many different areas that, uh, that it's just it's gonna be a different kind of landscape out there we feel on that's really, you know, continuing to be seen on the uptick in our business and how many people are adopting this technology. We're developing a lot more. Partnerships with other companies were expanding into new industries on again. You know, we're confident that the current platform is going to keep up with us and help us, you know, really scale and evolved as thes needs air growing. >>It sounds to me like you have the foundation with Dell Technologies with power scale to be able to facilitate the massive growth that you're saying and the skill in the future like you've got that foundation. You're ready to go? >>Yeah, we've been We've been We've been using the system for five years already. We've already added capacity. We can add capacity on the fly, Really haven't hit any limits. And what we can do, It's It's almost infinitely scalable, highly redundant. Gives everyone a real sense of security on our side. And, you know, we could just keep innovating, which is what we do without hitting any any technological limits with with our partnership. >>Excellent. Well, Bill, I'm gonna let you get back to innovating for Earth camp. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for your time today. >>Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure >>for Bill Sharp and Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes. Digital coverage of Dell Technologies World 2020. Thanks for watching. Yeah,

>> Announcer: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE Conversation. >> Hi I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, we're here for a special CUBE Conversation. Obviously we're remote, we're in the studio most of the time but on the weekends I get an opportunity to talk to friends and experts. And here I wanted to really dig in with an awesome case study around AWS Cloud in a use case that I think is game changing for local communities, especially in this time of COVID. You have local communities where local journalism is suffering, but also connectedness. And connected experience is what's going to make the difference as we come out of this pandemic as a societal impact. But there's a real tech story here I want to dig into. We're here with Dan Drew who is the vice president of engineering for Clinical Didja, they make an app called Local BTV which basically takes over the air television and streams it to an app in your local area, enabling access to linear TV and on demand as well for local communities. It's a phenomenal project and it's unique. Somewhat misunderstood right now, but I think it's going to be something that's going to be very important. Dan, thank you for coming on and chatting with me. >> Thanks for having me, appreciate it. >> Okay so I'm a big fan, I've been using the app in San Francisco. I know New York's on the docket, it might even be deployed. You guys have a unique infrastructure capability that's powering this new app location, and this is the focus of this conversation in this CUBE Talk. Amazon is a big part of this. Talk about your local BTV that you are protecting, this platform for broadcast television, it has a unique hybrid cloud architecture. Can you tell us about that? >> Yeah certainly, I mean, one of our challenges, as you know, is that we are local television. So unlike a lot of products on the market, you know like your Hulus or other VMPV products, which primarily service sort of national feeds and things like that. We have to be able to receive over-the-air signals in each market. Many channels that serve local content are still over the air. And that is why you don't see a lot of them on those types of services. They tend to get ignored and unavailable to many users. So that's part of our value proposition is to not only allow more people to get access to these stations, but allow the stations themselves to reach more people. So that means that we have to have a local presence in each market in order to receive those signals. So that sort of forces us to have this hybrid model where we have local data centers, but then we also want to be able to effectively manage those in a central way, and we do that in our cloud platform which is hosted on Amazon and using Amazon services. >> All right let me take a breath here. You have a hybrid architecture on Amazon so since you're using a lot of the plumbing, take us through what the architecture of this ram is on using a variety of their services. Can you unpack that? >> Yeah, so obviously it starts with some of the core services like EC2, S3, RDS, which everybody on the planet uses. We're also very focused on using ECS; we're completely containerized which allows us to more effectively deploy our services and scale them. And one of the benefits on that front that Amazon provides is that because their container service is wired into all the other services like cloudwatch metrics, auto-scaling policies, IM policies, things like that. It means it allows us to manage those things in a much more effective way, and use those services to much more effectively make those things reliable and scalable. We also use a lot of their technologies, for example, for collecting metrics. So we use Kinesis and Redshift to collect realtime metrics from all of our markets across the U.S. That allows us to do that reliably and at scale without having to manage complex ETL systems like Kafka and other things. As well as store it in a large data lake like Redshift and Corid for analytics and things like that. We also use technologies like Media Tailor, so for example, one of the big features that most stations do not have access to is realtime targeted advertising. In the broadcast space, many ads are sold and placed weeks in advance, and not personalized obviously for that reason. Whereas one of the big features we can bring to the table using our system and technologies like Media Tailor is we can provide realtime targeted advertising which is a huge win for these stations. >> What are some of the unique capabilities that you guys can offer broadcast station partners 'cause you're basically going in and partnering with broadcast stations as well. But also you're enabling new broadcasters to jump in as well. What are some of the unique capabilities that you're delivering, what is Amazon bringing to the table there and what are you doing that's unique? >> Well again, it allows us, because we can do things centrally as well as the local reception, it allows us to do some interesting things like if we have channels that are allowed to broadcast even outside their market, then we can easily put them in other markets and get them even more viewers that way. We have the ability to even do hyper local or community channels that are not necessarily broadcasting all of the standard antennas, but can get us a feed from whatever zip code in whatever market, and we can give them a way to reach viewers in the entire market, in other markets, or even just in their local area. So consider the case where maybe a high school or a college wants to show games or local content, we provide a platform where they can now do that, and reach more people using our app and our platform very very easily. So that's another area that we want to help expand is not just your typical view of local of what's available in Phoenix, but what's available in a particular city in that area or a local community where they want to reach their community more effectively or even have content that might be interesting to other communities in Phoenix or one of the other markets. >> Now I think, just going on a side tangent here, I talked with your partner, Jim Long, who's the CEO, you guys have an amazing business opportunity. Again, I think it's kind of misunderstood, but it's very clear to me that someone who follows and has huge passion about local journalism, you know you see awesome efforts out there like Charlie Sennott from the Ground Truth Project Report for America, they take a journalism kind of print view, but if you add that Didja business model onto this local journalism, you can enable more video locally. I mean, that's really the killer app, video. And now COVID more than ever, I really want to know things like there's a mural in downtown Palo Alto, Black lives matter, I want to know what's going on with the local summer restaurants, putting people out on the sidewalks. Right now I'm limited to like next door or very laggy media, whether it's the website, so again, I think this is an opportunity for that, plus education. I mean, Amazon educate for instance, you can get a degree on computing by sitting on the couch. So again, this is a paradigm shift from an application standpoint that you're providing essentially linear TV to that. >> Exactly. >> In the local economy. So I just want to give you a shout-out for that because I think it's super important. I think people should get behind this, so congratulations. Okay I'm off on my little rant there. Let's get back down to some of that cloud stuff 'cause I think what's super interesting to me is you guys can stand up infrastructure very quickly, and what you've done here, you've leveraged the benefits of Amazon and the goodness of cloud, you essentially can stand up a metro region pretty quickly and pretty impressive. So I got to ask you, what Amazon services are most important for your business? >> Well like I said, I think for us, it's managing the central services so we sort of talked about managing the software, the APIs, and those are kind of the glue, so for us standing up a new metro is obviously getting the data center contracts and all the other messy stuff you have to deal with, just to have a footprint. But essentially once we have that in place, we can spin up the software in the data center and have it hooked into our central service within hours. And we can be starting channels literally within half a day. So that's the real win for us is having all that central glue and that central management system and the scalability where we can just add another 10, 20, 50, 100 markets and the system is set up to scale centrally where we can start collecting metrics through Cloud watch from those data centers, we're collecting logs and diagnostic information so we can detect health and everything else centrally and monitor and operate all of these things centrally in a way that is sane and not crazy. We don't need a 24/7 knock of a thousand people to do this, you know, and do that in a way that we, as a relatively small company, can still scale and do that in a sensible way, and a cost-effective way, which is obviously very important for us at our size, but at any size, you want to make sure if you're going to go into 200 plus markets that you have a really good cost model and that's one of the things where Amazon has really really helped us is allow us to do some really complex things, and in an efficient, scalable, reliable, and cost-effective way. The cost for us to go into a new metro now is so small relatively speaking that that's really what allows us to do as a business and now we just opened up New York and we're going to keep expanding on that model so that's been a huge win for us is evaluating what Amazon can bring to the table versus other third parties or building our own obviously-- >> So Amazon gives you the knock basically leverage and scale. The data center you're referring to, that's pretty much just to get an origination point in the territory. >> Dan: Exactly, that's right. >> So it's not like it's a super complex data center. You can just go in, making sure that they got all the normal path to recovery and the normal stuff, it's not like a heavy duty buildup. Can you explain that? >> Yeah, so one thing we do do in our data centers is because we are local, we have sort of primary data centers where we do do transcoding and origination of the video so we receive the video locally and then we want to transcode and deliver it locally and that way we're not sending video across the country and back type of thing. So that is sort of the hybrid part of our model. So we stand that up, but then that is all managed by the central service. So we essentially have another container cluster using Kubernetes in this case. But that Kubernetes cluster is essentially told what to do by everything that's running in Amazon. So we essentially stand up the Kubernetes cluster, we wire it up to the central service, and then from then on, we just go into the central service and say stand up these channels and it all pops up. >> Well my final question on the Amazon piece is really about the future capability besides having a CUBE channel which we'd love to have on there, I told my guys we'll get there. But we're just too busy working around the clock as you guys are with COVID-19. (overlapping chatter) I could almost see a slew of new services coming out, just on the Amazon side. If I'm on the Amazon side I'm thinking, okay I'll post this as an opportunity for me. I can see sage making and machine learning coming in and adding value for the user experience. And also enabling their own stuff. They've got a ton of stuff with Prime and moving people around and delivering things. I mean the headroom for Amazon in this thing is off the charts. But that being said, that's Amazon, I could see them winning with this. I know certainly I know you're using Elemental as well, but for you guys on the consumer side, what features and what new things do you see on the roadmap or what you might envision the future looking like? >> Well, I think part of it I think there's two parts. One of it is what are we going to deliver ourselves so we talked about adding community content and continuing to evolve the local BTV product. But we also see ourselves primarily as a local TV platform. For example, you mentioned Prime and a lot of people are now realizing, especially with COVID and what's going on, the importance of local television and so we're in discussions on a lot of fronts with people to see how we can be the provider of that local TV content. And that's really a lot of stations are super excited about that too 'cause you know, again, looking to expand their own footprint and their own reach, we're basically the way that we can join those two things together between the stations, the other video platforms, and distribution mechanisms, and the viewers obviously at the end of the day, we want to make sure local viewers can get more local content and stuff that's interesting to them. Like you said with the news, it is not uncommon that you may have your Bay area stations but the news is still maybe very focused on LA or San Francisco or whatever. And so being able to enable the smaller regional outlets to reach people in that area in a more local fashion is definitely a big way that we can facilitate that from the platform and viewer perspective. So we're hoping to do that in any way we can. Our main focus is make local great and get the broadcast world out there and that's not going anywhere especially with things like HSE3 on the front, and we just want to make sure those people are successful and enrich people and make revenue. >> Yeah, you got a lot of (mumbles) but I think one of the things that's interesting about your project that I find is a classic case of people who focus in on just current market value investing, versus kind of the game-changing shifts is that you guys are horizontally enabling in the sense that there's so many different use cases I was pointing out from my perspective, journalism, and I look at that and I'm like, okay that's a huge opportunity just there, changing the game on societal impact on journalism, huge education opportunity for court cutters. You're talking about a whole nother thing around TV so I got to ask ya, pretend I'm an idiot for a minute. Pretend, let's make it, I am an idiot. I don't understand, isn't this just TV? What are you doing different because it's only local. I can't watch San Francisco if I'm in Chicago and I can't watch Chicago if I'm in San Francisco, I get that. But why is this important? Isn't this just TV? Can't I just get it on YouTube, TikTok, what is this? >> Yes and no. There's TV and then there's TV as you know. If you look at the TV landscape, it's pretty fractured but typically when you're talking about YouTube or Hulu, you're talking about sort of cable TV channels. You know, you're going to get your A&E, you're going to get some of your local through ABC and whatnot, but you're not really getting local content. So for example, in our Los Angeles market, there are about 100 and something over-the-air channels. If you look at the cross section of which of those channels you can get on your other big name products like your Hulus or your YouTube TV, you're talking about maybe half a dozen or a dozen. So we're talking about 90 plus channels that are local to LA that you can only get through an antenna. And those are hitting the type of demographics that, quite frankly, some of these other players just don't see as important. >> Under different minorities or immigrants, the each entrepreneurs of our country. >> Yes exactly, so we might see a lot of Korean channels or Spanish channels or other minority channels that you just won't get over your cable channels or your typical online video providers. So that's, again, why we feel like we've got something that is really unique and that is really under-served as far as on a television standpoint. The other side that we bring to the table is that a lot of these broadcast channels are under served themselves in terms of technology. If you look at ad insertion and a lot of the technical discussions about how to do live TV and how to get live TV out there, it's very focused on the OTT market, so again, going back to the Hulus and the YouTubes. >> OTT, over-the-top you mean. >> Over the top, yeah. And so this broadcast market basically had no real evolution on that front in a while and I sort of mentioned the way ad buying works. It's still sort of the traditional ad buying that happens a couple weeks in front, not a lot of targeted or anything ability. And even when we get to HSE3, you're now relying on having an HES3 TV and you're still tied to an antenna, etc, etc, which is, again, a good move forward, but still not covering the spectrum of what these guys really want to reach and do. So that's where we kind of fill in the gaps using technology and filling in the gap of receiving a signal and bringing these technologies to not only the ad insertion and the stuff we can do for the livestream, but providing analytics and other tools to the stations that they really don't have right now unless you're willing to shell out a lot of money for Nielsen, which a lot of local small stations don't do. So we can provide a lot of analytics on viewership and targeting and things like that that they're really looking forward to and really excited about. >> All right, I got to ask you, put you on the spot here, 'cause I always see Andy Jassy at (mumbles) hopefully I'll see him this year if they do an in-person event. He's really dynamic and you should send him an email; he tends to read his emails a lot, and if you're a customer and I know you are, but I've got to ask you, if you bumped into Andy Jassy on the elevator and he's like, hey why should I pay attention to Didja? Why is it important for Amazon and why is it important for the world? How does it raise the bar on society? >> Well I think part of what Amazon's goal, especially if you get into their work in public sector and education, that's really where we see we're focusing with the community and local television and enabling new types of local television. So I think there's a lot of advantage and I hate the word synergy, but I'm going to use the word synergy. As far as our goals in those areas around really helping, one of the terms flying around now is the double bottom line where it's not just about revenue, it's about how do we help people in communities be better as well? So there's a bottom line in terms of people, benefit, and revenue in that way, not just financial revenue. And that's very important to us as a business as well is that's why we're focused on local TV and we're not just doing another Fubo where it's really easy to get an IP national fee. It's really important to us to enable the local community and the local broadcasters and the local channels and the local viewers to get the content that they're missing out on right now. So I think there's a, I hate it but I'm going to use it, synergy on that front as far as-- >> Synergy and the new normal. >> Synergy and the new normal? I think COVID and some of the other things that have been happening in the news with the Black Lives Matter and a lot of the things going around where local and community has been in the spotlight and getting the word out and having really local things versus I'm just seeing this thing from three counties away which I don't really care about and it's not telling me what's happening down the street like you said. And that's really what we want to help improve and support. >> Yeah it's a great mission, and it's one we care a lot about theCUBE. We've seen the data: content drives community engagement, and community's where the truth is. So in an era when we need more transparency and more truth, you get more cameras on the street, you're going to start to see things. That's what we're seeing a lot of things. And as more data's exposed, as you turn the lights on, so to speak, that kind of data will only help communities grow, heal, and thrive. So to me, big believer in what you guys are doing. Local BTV has a great mission. I wish you guys well and thanks for explaining the infrastructure on Amazon. I think you guys have a really killer use case technically. I mean to me, I think the technical superiority of what you've done give ability to stand up to these kinds of network with massive number of potential reach out of the gate, that's pretty impressive, congratulations. >> Great, thank you very much and thanks for taking the time. (upbeat music)