>> Welcome back to Los Angeles. TheCUBE is live. I can't say that enough. The cube is live. We're at KubeCon Cloud Native Con 21. We've been here all day yesterday, and today and tomorrow I'm talking with lots of guests, really uncovering what's going on in the world of Kubernetes. Lisa Martin, here with Dave Nicholson. We've got some folks. Next we're going to be talking about a customer use case, which is always one of my favorite things to talk about. Please welcome Micah Coletti, the principal platform engineer at CHG healthcare, and Venkat Ramakrishnan VP of products from Portworx by Pure Storage, guys welcome to the program. >> Thank you. >> Happy to be here. >> Yeah. So Micah, first of all, let's go ahead and start with you. Give the audience an overview of CHG healthcare. >> Yeah. So CHG healthcare, we're a staffing company. So we try like a little companion. So our clients are doctors and hospitals, so we help staff hospitals with temporary doctors or even permanent placing. So we deal with a lot of doctors, a lot of nursing and we're a combination of multiple companies. So CHG is the parent. So, and yeah, we're known in the industry as one of the leaders in this field and providing hospitals with high quality doctors and nurses. And, you know, our customer service is like number one, and one of the things our CEO is really focused on is now how do we make that more digital? How do we provide that same level of quality of service, but a digital experience as rich for her. >> I can imagine it was a massive need for that in the last 18 months alone. >> COVID definitely really raised that awareness up for us and the importance of that digital experience and that we need to be out there in the digital market. >> Absolutely. So you're a customer port works by pure storage, we're going to get into that, but then Venkat talk to us about what's going on, the acquisition of port works by pure storage was about a year ago. Talk to us about your VP of products what's going on. >> Yeah, I mean, you know, first of all, I think I could not say how much of a great fit for a Portworx will be part of pure storage, it's, pure itself is a very fast moving, large startup that's a dominant leader in the flash and data center space, and, you know, pure recognizes the fact that Kubernetes is the new operating system of the cloud is not how, you know, it's kind of virtualizing the cloud itself, and there's a, you know, a big burgeoning need for data management and Kubernetes and how you can kind of orchestrate workloads between your on-prem data centers and the cloud and back. So Portworx fits right into the story as complete vision of data management for our customers, and it's been phenomenal. Our business has grown as part of being part of a pure, and you know, we're looking at launching some new products as well, and it's all exciting times. >> So you must've been pretty delighted to be acquired as a startup by essentially a startup because, because although pure has reached significant milestones in the storage business and is a leader in flash storage still that that startup mindset is absolutely unique. That's not, that's not the same as being acquired by a company that's been around for a hundred years seeking to revitalize itself. >> Absolutely. >> Can you talk a little bit about that aspect? >> Yeah, So I think, you know, purist culture is a highly innovation-driven and it's a very open, flat culture, right? I mean, it's, everybody in pure is accessible. It can easily have a composition with folks and everybody has his learning mindset and Portworx is and has always been the same way. Right? So when you put these teams together, if we can create wonders, I mean, we right after the acquisition, just within a few months, we announced an integrated solution that portworx orchestrates volumes and file shares in pure splash products and then delivers as an integrated solution for our customers, and pure has a phenomenal cloud-based monitoring and management system called pure one that we integrated well into. Now, we're bringing the power of all of the observability that pure's customers are used to for all of the corporate customers, and I've been super happy, you know, delegating that capability to our customers and our customers are delighted. Now they can have a complete view all the way from Kubernetes app to the flash. and I don't think any one company in the planet can even plan they can do that. >> I think it's fair to acknowledge that pure one was observability before observability was a word that everyone used regularly. >> Yep. >> Sounds very interesting. >> Micah Talk to us about, obviously you are a customer. CHG is a customer of Portworx now Portworx by Pure Storage. Talk to us about the use case. What, what was the compellent? Was there a compelling event and from a storage perspective that led you to Portworx in the first place. >> So we beat, they began this, our CEO base came to the vision, we need to have a digital presence we need enhances. and this was even before COVID. So they brought me on board and my, my manager read glossary. We basically had this task to, how are we going to get out into the cloud? How are we going to make that happen? And we chose to follow a very much a cloud native strategy and the platform of choice, I mean, it just made sense with Kubernetes. And so when we were looking at Kubernetes, we were starting to figure out how we're doing. We knew that data is going to be a big factor. You know, being a, provide data. We're very much focused on an event driven. We're really pushing to event driven architecture. So we leverage Kafka on top of Kubernetes, but at the time we were actually leveraging Kafka with a MSK down, out in AWS, and that was just a huge cost to us. So I came on board, I had experienced with Portworx, a prior company before that, and I basically said, we need to figure out a great storage relay overlay. and the only way to do is we got to have high performance storage, we've got to have secure. We got to be able to backup and recover that storage. And the Portworx was the right match. And that allowed us to have a very smooth transition off of MSK onto Kubernetes saving us a significant amount of money per month, and just leverage that already existing hardware that our existing compute memory and just, and the, and move right to Portworx. >> Leveraging your existing investments. >> Exactly. >> Which is key, >> Very key, very key so. >> So how common are the challenges that when you guys came together with CHG, how common are the challenges? >> It's actually a, that's a great question. You know, this is, you know, I'll tell you the challenges that Micah and his team are running into is what we see a lot in the industry where people pay a ton of money, you know to other vendors are, you know, especially in some cases use some cloud native services, but they want to have control over the data. They want to control the cost and they want higher performance and they want to have, you know, there's also governance and regulatory things that they need to control better. So they want to kind of bring these services and have more control over them. Right? So now we will work very well with all of our partners, including the cloud providers, as well as, you know, on-prem and server vendors and everybody, but different customers have different kinds of needs. And Portworx gives them that flexibility. If you are a customer who want, you know, have a lot of control over your applications, the performance, the latency, and want to control costs very well and leverage your existing investments Portworx can deliver that for you in your data center. Right now, you can integrate that with pure slash and you get a complete solution, or you want to run it in cloud, and you still want to have leverage the agility of the cloud and scale Portworx delivers a solution for you as well. So it kind of not only protects their investment its future proves their architecture, you get future proving your architecture completely. So if you want to tear the cloud or burst the cloud, you have a great solution that you can continue to leverage >> Micah, when you hear future-proof and I'm a marketer. So I always go, I love to know what it means to different people. What does that mean to you in your environment? >> My environment. So a future-proof means like one of the things we've been addressing lately, that's just a real big challenge. And I'm sure it's a challenge in the industry, especially the Q and A's is upgrading our clusters. The ability to actually maintain a consistent flow with how fast Kubernetes is growing, you know, they're, they they're out. I think he cast, we leverage the cast. So it's like 121 or 122 now, and that effort to upgrade a cluster, it can be a daunting one. With Portworx, we actually were able to make that to where we could actually spin up a brand new cluster. And with Portworx shift, all our applications, services, data migrated completely over, Portworx handles all of that for us and stand up that new cluster in, in less than a day. And that effort, I mean, it would take us a week, two weeks to do so, not even man hours and time spent there, but just the reliability of being able to do that in the cost, you know, instead of standing up a new cluster and configuring it and doing all that and spending all that time, we can just really, we move to what we call blue green cut-over strategy. And Portworx is an essential piece of that. >> So Venkat, is it fair to say that there are a variety of ways that people approach Portworx from a value perspective in terms of, I know that one area that you are particularly good in is the area of backups in this environment, but then you get data management and there's a third kind of vector there. What is the third vector? >> As all of the data services, >> Data services, >> Yeah Like for example, deep database as a service on any Kubernetes cluster feed on your cloud or your on-prem data centers. >> Which data, what kind of databases are you talking about? >> I mean we're talking about anything from Reddit Kafka, Post-stress my sequel console, we are supporting. We just announced something called a Portworx Data Services Offering that essentially delivers all these databases as a service on any Kubernetes cluster that a customer can point to and lets them kind of get the automated management of the database from day one to day three, the entire life cycle, you know, through regular Kubernetes, scoop cuddle experience through APIs and SDKs and a nice slick UI that they can, you know, that's, role-based access control and all of that, that they can completely control their data and their applications through it. And you know, that's the third vector of Portworx office. >> Micah a question for you. So Portworx has been a part of pure storage? You've known it since obviously for several years before you were at CHG, you brought it to CHG. You now know it a year into being acquired by a fast paced startup. Talk to me about the relationship and some of the benefits that you're getting with Portworx as a part of pure storage? >> Well, I mean, one of the things I, you know, when I heard about the acquisition, my first thing was, I was a little bit concerned is that relationship going to change? And when we were acquiring, when we were looking at adopting Portworx, one thing I would tell my management is Portworx is not just a vendor that wants to throw a solution on you and provide some capability. They're a partner. They want to partner with you and your success in your journey and this whole cloud native journey to provide this rich digital experience in the, for not only our platform engineering team, but our Dev teams, but also be able to really accelerate the development of our services. So we can provide that digital portal for our end users. And that didn't change. If anything, that it accelerated that relationship did not change. You know, I came to Venkat with an issue. We just we're, we're dealing with, he immediately got someone on a phone call with me. And so that has not changed. So it's really exciting to see that now that they've been acquired, that they still are very much invested in the success of their customers and making sure we're successful. You know, it's not all of a sudden. I was worried I was going to have to do a whole different support PA process, and it was going to go into a black hole. Didn't happen. They still are very much involved with their customers. >> It's sounds kind of Venkat similar to what you talked about with the cultural alignment. I've known here for a long time and they're very customer centric sounds like one of the areas in which there was a very strong alignment with Portworx >> Absolutely. and Portworx has always taken pride in being customer first company. Our founders are heavily customer focused. You know, they are aligned. They want, they have always aligned. our portraits business to our customers' needs. Now Pure is a company that's maniacally focused on customers, right? I mean, that's all in a pure pounder cars and everybody cared about. And so, you know, bringing these companies together and being part of the Pure team, I kind of see how, how synergistic it is. And, you know, we have, you know, that has enabled us to serve our customer's customers even better than before. >> So I'm curious about the two of you personally, in terms of your, your histories, I'm going to assume that you didn't both just bounce out of high school into the world of Kubernetes, right? So like Lisa and I you're spanning the generations between the world of say virtualization based on x86 architecture, virtualization, where you're not, you don't have microservices, you have a full blown operating system that you're working with. Kind of talk about, you know, Micah with you first talk about what that's been like navigating that change. We were in the midst of that. Do you have advice for others that are navigating that change? >> Don't be afraid of it. You know, a lot of people want to, you know, I call it we're moving from where we're name me. We still have cats and dogs. They have a name that the VMs either whether or not they're physical boxes or their VMs to where it's more like, he'd say cattle, you know, it's like we don't own the OOS and not to be afraid of afraid of that, because change is really good. You know, the ability for me to not have to worry about patching and operating system, it's huge, you know, where I can rely on someone like EKS and, and the version and allow them to, if a CV comes out, they let me know. I go and I use their tools to be able to upgrade. So I don't have to literally worry about owning that OOS and containers as the same thing. You know, you, you know, it's all about being fault-tolerant right. And being able to be changed or where, you know, you can actually roll out a new version of a container, a base image with a lot of ease without having to go and patch a bunch of servers. I mean, patch night was hell and sorry if I could say that, but it was a nightmare, you know, but this whole world has just been a game changer with that. >> So Venkat from your perspective, you were coming at it, going into a startup, looking at the landscape in the future and seeing opportunity. What what's that been like for you? I guess the question for you is more something, Lisa and I talk about this concept of peak Kubernetes, where are we in the wave? Is this just, is this just the beginning? Are we in the thick of it? >> I think I would say we're kind of transitioning from early adopters, early majority phase in the whole, you know, crossing the chasm analogy, right? So I would say we're still early stages of this big wave. That's going to transform how infrastructure is built. Apps are apps are built and managed and run in production. I think some of the pieces, the key pieces are falling in place and maturing. There are some other pieces like observability and security, you know, kind of edge use cases need to be, you know, they're kind of going to get a lot more mature and you'll see that the cloud, as we know today, and the apps, as we know today, they're going to be radically different. And you know, if you're not building your apps and your business on this modern platform, on this modern infrastructure, you're going to be left behind. You know, I, my wife's birthday was a couple of days ago. I was telling the story to my couple of friends is that I, I used another flowers delivery website. They miss delivering the flowers on the same day, right. So they told me all kinds of excuses. Then I just went and looked up a, you know, like door dash, which is delivers, you know, and then, you know, like your food, but there's also flower delivery and door dash and I don't do I door dash flowers to her, and I can track the flower delivery all the way she did not need them, but my kids love the chocolates though. Right. So, and you know, the case in point is that you cannot be in a building, a modern business without leveraging the model tool chain and modern tool chain and how the business is going to be delivered at that thing is going to be changing dramatically. And those kinds of customer experience, if you don't deliver, you're not going to be successful in business. And Kubernetes is the fundamental technology that enables this containers is a fundamental piece of technology that enables building new businesses, you know, modernizing existing businesses. And the 5G is going to be, there's going to be new innovations. It's going to get unleashed. And again, Kubernetes and containers enable us to leverage those. And so we're still scratching the surface on this. It's big. Now, it's going to be much, much bigger, you know, as, as we go into the next couple of years. >> Speaking, scratching the surface, Micah, take us out in the last 30 seconds or so with where CHG healthcare is on institutional transformation, how is Portworx facilitating that? >> So we're, we're right in the thick of it. I mean, we are, we still have what we call the legacy. We're working on getting those, but I mean, we're really moving forward to provide that rich experience, especially with event driven platforms like Kafka and Kubernetes and partnering with Portworx is one of the key things for us with that. And AWS along with that. But we're a, and I remember I heard a talk and I can't, I can't remember her name, but he talked about how, how Pure Kubernetes is sort of like the 56K modem, right. You're hearing it and see, but it's got to get to the point where it's just there. It's just the high-speed internet and Kelsey Hightower. That's great. But yeah, and I really liked that because that's true, you know, and that's where we are. We're all in that transition where we're still early, it's still at 50. So you still want to hear note, you still want to do cube CTL. You want to learn it the hard way and do all that fun stuff. But eventually it's going to be where it's just, it's just there. And it's running everything like 5G. I mean, stripped down doing micro, you know, Kate's things like that. You know, we're going to see it in a lot of other areas and just periphery and really accelerate the industry in compute and memory and storage, and. >> Yeah, a lot of acceleration. Guys thank you. This has been a really interesting session. I always love digging into customer use cases. How CHG is really driving its evolution with Portworx. Venkat, thanks for sharing with us, What's going on with Portworx a year after the acquisition. It sounds like all good stuff. >> Thank you. Thanks for having us. >> Pleasure. All right. For Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live from Los Angeles. This is our coverage of KubeCon Cloud Native Con 21.

>>Welcome back to Los Angeles, Lisa Martin and Dave Nicholson here on day three of the cubes, coverage of coop con and cloud native con north America, 21, Dave, we've had a lot of great conversations. The last three days it's been jam packed. Yes, it has been. And yes, it has been fantastic. And it's been live. Did we mention that it's inline live in Los Angeles and we're very pleased to welcome one of our alumni back to the program. David Stephanie is here. The CEO of Trulio David. Welcome back. It's good to see you. >>Thanks for having me. It's good to be here. Isn't it great to be in person? Oh man. It's been a reunion. >>It hasn't been a reunion and they have Ubered been talking about these great little, have you seen these wristbands that they have? I actually asked >>For two, cause I'm a big hugger, so >>Excellent. So, so here we are day three of coupon. That's actually probably day five, our third day of coverage. I'm losing track to it's Friday. I know that, that I can tell you, you guys announced two dot five a couple of weeks ago. Tell us what's in that. What's exciting. Before we crack open Twilio, uh, choy. >>Sure, sure. Well, it's been exciting to be here. Look, the theme right of resiliency realize has been it's right up our wheelhouse, right? To signal that more people are getting into production type of environments. More people require data protection for cloud native applications, right? And, uh, there's two dot five releases. It is as an answer to what we're seeing in the market. It really is centered predominantly around, uh, ransomware protection. And uh, you know, for us, when we look at this, I I've done a lot of work in, in cybersecurity, my career. And we took a hard look about a year ago around this area. How do we do this? How do we participate? How do we protect and help people recover? Because recovery that's part of the security conversation. You can talk about all the other things, but recovery is just as important. And we look at, uh, everything from a zero trust architecture that we provide now to adhering, to NIST standards and framework that's everything from immutability. Uh, so you can't touch the backups now, right? Uh, th that's fine to encryption, right? We'll encrypt from the application all the way to that, to the storage repository. And we'll leverage Keem in that system. So it's kind of like Bitcoin, right? You need a key to get your coin. You as an end-user only have your key to your data alone. And that's it. So all these things become more and more important as we adopt more cloud native technology. And >>As the threat landscape changes dramatically. >>Oh yeah. I got to tell you right. Every time we, you, you publish an application into another cloud, it's a new vector, right? So now I'm living in a multi-cloud world where multiple applications in my data now lives, right? So people are trying to attack backups through, uh, consoles and the ministry of consoles to the actual back of themselves. So new vectors, new problems need new solutions. >>And you mentioned, you mentioned something, you, you, you asked the question, how do we participate? And we are here at KU con uh, w uh, cloud native foundation. So what about, what's your connection to the open source community and efforts there? How do you participate in that? >>Yeah, so it's a really great question because, you know, uh, we are a closed source solution that focuses all of our efforts on the open source community and protecting cloud native applications. Our roots have been protecting cloud native applications since 2013, 2014, and with a lot of very large logos. And, um, you know, through time there are open source projects that do emerge, you know, in this community. And for example, Valero is an open source data protection platform, um, for all of its goodness, as a, as a community-based project, they're also deficiencies, right? So Valero in itself is, uh, focuses only on label based applications. It doesn't really scale. It doesn't have a UI it's really CLI driven, which is good for some people and it's free. But you know, if you need to really talk about an enterprise grade platform, this is where we pick up, you know, we, in our last release, we gave you the ability to capture your Valero based backups. And now you want to be an adult with an enterprise caliber, you know, backup solution and continue to protect your environment and have compliance and governance needs all satisfied. That's where, that's where we really stand out. >>Well, when you're talking to customers in any industry, what are the things that you talk about in terms of relief, categorizing the key differentiators that really make Trulia stand out above the competition? >>Yeah. Cause there, there a bunch of, they're a bunch of great competitors out there. There's no doubt about it. A lot of the legacy folks that you do see perhaps on those show floor, they do tuck in Valero and under the, under the covers, they can check a box or you can set aside some customer needs some of the pure play people that, that we do see out there, great solutions too. But really where we shine is, you know, we are the most flexible agnostic solution that there is in this market. And we've had people like red hat and Susa and verandas, digital ocean and HPS morale. And the list goes on, certify, say, Trulio is the solution of choice. And now no matter where you are in this journey or who you're using, we have your back. So there's a lot of flexibility. There we are complete storage agnostic. >>We are cloud agnostic in going back to how you want to build our architecture application. People are in various phases in their, in their journey. A lot of times, many moons ago, you may have started with just a label based application. Then you have another department that has a new technique and they want to use helm, or you may be adopting open shift and you're using operators to us. It doesn't matter. You have peace of mind. So whether you have, you have to protect multiple departments or you as an end user, as one single tenant are using various techniques, we'll discover or protect and we can move forward. >>So if you looked at, if you look at it from a workload basis, um, and you look at your customers are the workloads that you're protecting. What's, what's the mix of what you think of as legacy virtualized things versus containerized things. And then, and then, and then the other kind of follow on to that is, um, are you seeing a lot of modernization and migration or are you seeing people leave the legacy things alone and then develop net new in sort of separate silos? >>Yeah. So that's a great question. And I, to tell you the answer varies, that's, that's the honest answer, right? You end up having, you may have a group or a CIO that says, look, your CTO says, we're moving to this new architecture. The water's great, bring your applications in. And so either it's, we're going to lift and shift an application and then start to break it apart over time and develop microservices, or we're gonna start net new. And it really does run, run the gambit. And so, you know, as we look at, for some of those people, they have peace of mind that they can bring their two on applications in and we can recover. And for some people that say, look, I'm going to start brand new, and these are gonna be stateless applications. Um, we've seen this story before, right? Our, our, uh, uh, I joke around, it's kinda like the movie Groundhog's day. >>Uh, you know, we, we started many moons ago within the OpenStack world and we started with stateless to stateful. Always, always, always finds a way, but for the stateless people, um, when you start thinking about security, I've had conversations with CSOs around the world who say, I'm going to publish a stainless application. What I'm concerned about things like drift, you know, what's happening in runtime may be completely different than what I intended. So now we give you the ability to capture that runtime state compare. The two things identify what's changed. If you don't like what you see, and you can take that point in time recovery into a sandbox and forensically take it apart. You know, one of our superpowers, if you will, is the, our point in time, backups are all in an open format. Everyone else has proprietary Schemos. So the benefit of an open format is you have the ability to leverage a lot of third party tooling. So take a point in time, run scanners across it. And it, God forbid Trulio goes away. You still have access and you can recreate a point in time. So when you start thinking about compliance, heavy environments, think about telcos, right? Or financial institutions. They have to keep things for 15 years, right? Technologies change, architectures change. You can't have that lock-in >>So we continue to thrive. And on that front, one of the marketing terms that we hear a lot, and I want to get your opinion on this as a feature proofing, how do you, what does, what does it mean to you and Trillium and how do you enable that for organizations, like you said, for the FSI is I have to keep data for 15 years and other industries that have to keep it for maybe even longer. >>I mean, right. The future proof, uh, you know, terminology, that's part of our mantra actually, when I talked about, you know, a superpower being as agnostic and flexible as can be right, as long as you adhere to standards, right? The standards that are out here, we have that agnostic play. And then again, not just capturing an applications, metadata data, but that open format, right? Giving you that open capability to unpack something. So you're not, there is no, there is no vendor lock-in with us at all. So all these things play a part into, into future-proofing yourself. And because we live and breathe cloud native applications, you know, it's not just Kubernetes right? Over the course of time, there'll be other things, right. You're going to see mixed workloads too. They're gonna be VM based in the cloud and container based in the cloud and server lists as well. But you, as long as you have that framework to continuously build off of it, that's, that's where we go. You know, uh, it shouldn't matter where your application lives, right? At the end of the day, we will protect the application and its data. It can live anywhere. So conversations around multi-cloud change, we start to think and talk across cloud, right? The ability to move your application, your data, wherever it, wherever it needs to be to. >>Well, you talked about recoverability and that is the whole point of backing up video. You have to be able to recover something that we've seen in the last 18, 19 months. Anyone can backup >>Data. >>That's right. That's right. If you can't recover it, or if you can't recover it in time. Yeah. We're talking like going on a business potential and we've seen the massive changes in the security landscape in the last 18, 19 months ransomware. I was looking at some, some cybersecurity data that showed that just in the first half of this calendar year, January one to June 30, 20, 21, ransomware was up nearly 11 X DDoS attacks are up. We've got this remote workforce. That's going to probably persist for a while. So the ability to recover data from not if we get hit by ransomware, but when we get hit by ransomware is >>When you're, you're absolutely right. And, and, and to your plate anyway. So anyone can back up anything. When you look at it, it's at its highest form. We talk about point time where you orchestration, right. Backup is a use case. Dr. Is a use case, right? How do you, reorchestrate something that's complex, right? The containers, these applications in the cloud native space, there are morphous, they're living things, right? The metadata is different from one day to the next, the data itself is different from when one day the net to the next. So that's, what's so great about Trillium. It's such an elegant solution. It allows your, reorchestrate a point in time when and where you need it. So yes. You have to be able to recover. Yes. It's not a matter of if, but when. Right. And that's why recovery is part of that security conversation. Um, you know, I I've seen insurance companies, right? They want to provide insurance for ransomware. Well, you're gonna have enough attacks where they don't want to provide that insurance anymore. It costs too much. The investment that you make with, with Trulio will save you so much more money down the road. Right. Uh, who's our product manager actually gave a talk about that yesterday and the economics were really interesting. >>Hmm. So how has the recovery methodology who participates in that changed over time? As, as we, you know, as we are in this world of developer operators who take on greater responsibility for infrastructure things. Yeah. Who's, who's responsible for backup and recovery today and how, how has that changed >>Everyone? Everyone's responsible. So, you know, we rewind however many years, right? And it used predominantly CIS admin that was in charge of backup administrator, but a ticket in your backup administrator, right. Cloud native space and application lifecycle management is a team sport. Security is a team sport. It's a holistic approach. Right? So when you think about the, the team that you put out on the field, whether your DevOps, your SRE dev sec ops it ops, you're all going to have a need for point in time, we orchestration for various things and the term may not be backup. Right? It's something else. And maybe for test dev purposes, maybe for forensic purposes, maybe for Dr. Right. So I say it's a team sport and security as a holistic thing that everyone has to get on board with >>The three orchestration is exactly the right way to talk about absolute these processes. It's not just recovery, you're rebuilding >>Yeah. A complex environment. It's always changing. >>That's one of the guarantees. It's always going to be changing >>That much. >>Can you give us a, leave us with a customer example that you think really articulates the value of what Trulio delivers? >>Yeah. So it's interesting. I won't say who the customer is, but I'll tell you it's in the defense agency, it's a defense agency. Uh, they have developers all over the place. Uh, they need self-service capabilities for the tenants to mind their own backups. So you don't need to contact someone, right. They can build, they have one >>Dashboard, single pane of glass or truth to manage all their Corinthians applications. And it gives them that infrastructure to progress whether your dev ops or not your it ops, uh, this, this group has rolled it out across the nation and they're using in their work with very sensitive environments. So now we have they're back. And what are some of the big business outcomes that they're achieving already? >>The big business outcomes? Well, so operational efficiencies are definitely first and foremost, right? Empowering the end user with more tools, right? Because we've seen this shift left and people talking about dev ops, right. So how do I empower them to do more? So I see that operational efficiency, the recoverability aspect, God forbid, something goes wrong. How do you, how do you do that in the cost of that? Um, and then also, um, being native to the environment, the Trillium solution is built for Kubernetes. It is built on go. It is a Qubit stateless Kubernetes application. So you have to have seamless integration into these environments. And then going back to what I was saying before, knowing peace of mind, the credibility aspect, that it is blessed by, you know, red hat and suicide Mirandas and all these other, other folks in the field, um, that you can guarantee it's going to work >>Well, that helps to give your customers the confidence that there, and that confidence might sound trivial. It's not, especially when we're talking about security, it's not at all that, that's a, that's a big business outcome for you guys. When a customer says, I'm confident I have the right solution, we're going to be able to recover when things happen, we try, we fully trust in the solution that we're, >>And we'll bring more into production faster that helps everyone out here too. Right? It feels good. You have that credibility. You have that assurance that I can move faster and I can move into different clouds faster. And that's, we're gonna continue to put, we're gonna continue to push the envelope there. You know, coming a, as we look into, you know, going forward, we're going to come out with other capabilities. That's going to continue to differentiate ourselves from, from folks. Uh, we'll, we'll talk about in time, the ability to propagate data across multiple clouds simultaneously. So making RTOs look at the split seconds and minutes. And so I hope that we can have that conversation next time we were together, because it's really exciting. >>Any, any CTA that you want to give to the audience, any, any, uh, like upcoming or recent webinars that you think they would be really benefit from? >>I guess one thing I put out there is that, um, I understand that people need to continuously learn. There is a skillset hole in, in this market. We can, we understand that, you know, and people look to us as not just a vendor, but a partner. And a lot of the questions that we do get are how do I do this? Or how do I do that? Engage us, ask us to consume our product is really, really easy. You can download from the website or go to an, you know, red hats operator hub, or go to the marketplace over at Susa, and let's begin to begin and we're here to help. And so reach out, right? We want everyone to be successful. >>Awesome. trillium.io. David, thank you for joining us. This has been an exciting conversation. Good >>To see you all. >>Likewise. Good to see you in person take care. We look forward to the next time we see you when unpacking what other great things are going on on Trulia. We appreciate your >>Time. Thank you so much. Good to be here >>For David's fie and David Nicholson, the two Davids I'm going to sandwich. I'm Lisa Martin, you we're coming to you live from Los Angeles. This is Q con cloud native con north America, 2021. Stick around our next guest joins us momentarily.

>>Good morning from Los Angeles, Lisa Martin here at Qube con cloud native con north America, 2021. This is the cubes third day, a wall-to-wall coverage. So great to be back at an event in person I'm excited to be joined by Vince Wang, senior director of products at 49. We're going to talk security and Kubernetes then welcome to the program. >>Thank you for having me. >>So I always love talking to 40 minutes. Cybersecurity is something that is such an impersonal interest of mine. The fording that talks about the importance of integrating security and compliance and the dev sec ops workflow across the container life cycle. Why is this important and how do you help companies achieve it? >>Well, as companies are making digital innovations, they're trying to move faster and as to move faster, or many companies are shifting towards a cloud native approach, uh, rapid integrations, rapid development, and rapid deployment, uh, but sometimes speed, you know, there's a benefit to that, but there's also the downside of that, where, you know, you can lose track of issues and you can, uh, introduce a human error in a problem. So as part of the, as part of the, the, the means to deliver fast while maintaining his six year approach, where both the company and the organizations delivering it and their end customers, it's important to integrate security throughout the entire life cycle. From the moment you start planning and development, and people's in process to when you're developing it and then deploying and running in production, um, the entire process needs to be secured, monitored, and, um, and vetted regularly with good quality, um, processes, deep visibility, and an integrated approach to the problem. Um, and I think the other thing to also consider is in this day and age with the current situation with COVID, there's a lot of, uh, development of employment in terms of what I call NASA dental Baltic cloud, where you're deploying applications in random places, in places that are unplanned because you need speed and that, uh, diversity of infrastructure and diversity of, uh, of clouds and development and things to consider then, uh, produces a lot of, uh, you know, uh, opportunities for security and, and challenges to come about. >>And we've seen so much change from a security perspective, um, the threat landscape over the last 18 months. So it's absolutely critical that the integration happens shifting left. Talk to us about now let's switch topics. Application teams are adopting CIC D uh, CICB workflows. Why does security need to be at the center of that adoption? >>Well, it goes back to my earlier point where when you're moving fast, your organizations are doing, um, you're building, deploying, running continuously and monitoring, and then improving, right? So the idea is you're, you're creating smaller, incremental changes, throwing it to the cloud, running it, adjusting it. So then you're, you're rapidly integrating and you're rapidly developing and delivery. And again, it comes down to that, that rapid nature, uh, things can happen. There's, there's more, uh, more points of touching and there's more points of interactions. And, you know, and again, when you're moving that fast, it's really easy to, um, miss things along the way. So as you have security as a core fundamental element of that DNA, as you're building it, uh, that that's in parallel with everything you're doing, you just make sure that, um, when you do deliver something that is the most secure application possible, you're not exposing your customers or your organizations to unforeseen risks that just kind of sits there. >>Uh, and I think part of that is if you think about cloud infrastructure, misconfiguration is still number one, uh, biggest problem with, uh, with security on the, in the cloud space, there's, uh, tasks and vulnerabilities those, we all know, and there's there's means to control that, but the configurations, when you're storing the data, the registries, all these different considerations that go into a cloud environment, those are the things that organizations need visibility on. And, um, the ability to, to adopt their processes, to be proactive in those things and know what they, uh, do. They just need to know what, what then, where are they're operating in, um, to kind of make these informed decisions. >>That visibility is key. When you're talking with customers in any industry, what are the top three, let's say recommendations to say, here's how you can reduce your exposure to security vulnerabilities in the CIS CD pipeline. What are some of the things that you recommend there to reduce the risk? >>There's a couple, oh, obviously security as a fundamental practice. We've been talking about that. So that's number one, key number. The second thing that I would say would be, uh, when you're adopting solutions, you need to consider the fact that there is a very much of a heterogeneous environment in today's, uh, ecosystem, lots of different clouds, lots of different tools. So integration is key. The ability to, um, have choices of deployment, uh, in terms of where you wanted to play. You don't want to deploy based upon the technology limitations. You want to deploy and operate your business to meet your business needs and having the right of integrations and toolings to, uh, have that flexibility. Now, option is key. And I think the third thing is once you have security, the choices, then you can treat, you create a situation where there's a lot of, uh, you know, process overhead and operational overhead, and you need a platform, a singular cybersecurity platform to kind of bring it all in that can work across multiple technologies and environments, and still be able to control at the visibility and consolidate, uh, policies and nationally consistent across all closet points. >>So we're to the DevOps folks, what are some of the key considerations that they need to take into >>Account to ensure that their container strategy isn't compromising security? Well, I think it comes down to having to think outside of just dev ops, right? You have to, we talk about CIC D you have to think beyond just the build process beyond just where things live. You have to think continuous life cycles and using a cyber security platform that brings it together, such as we have the Fortinet security fabric that does that tying a lot of different integration solutions. We work well within their core, but theirs have the ability to integrate well into various environments that provide that consistent policies. And I think that's the other thing is it's not just about integration. It's about creating that consistency across class. And the reality is also for, I think today's dev ops, many organizations are in transition it's, you know, as, as much as we all think and want to kind of get to that cloud native point in time, the reality is there's a lot of legacy things. >>And so dev ops set ups, the DevSecOps, all these different kind of operational functions need to consider the fact that everything is in transition. There are legacy applications, they are new cloud native top first type of application delivery is using containers of various technologies. And there needs to be a, again, that singular tool, the ability to tie this all together as a single pane of glass, to be able to then navigate emerge between legacy deployments and applications with the new way of doing things and the future of doing things with cloud native, uh, and it comes down again to, to something like the Fortinet security fabric, where we're tying things together, having solutions that can deploy on any cloud, securing any application on any cloud while bringing together that consistency, that visibility and the single point management, um, and to kind of lower that operational overhead and introduce security as part of the entire life cycle. >>Do you have a Vincent example of a customer that 49 has worked with that has done this, that you think really shows the value of what you're able to enable them to achieve? >>We do. We do. We have lots of customers, so can name any one specific customer for various reasons, you know, it's security after all. Um, but the, the most common use cases when customers look at it, that when you, we talked to a CIO, CSO CTO is I think that's a one enter they ask us is, well, how do we, how do we manage in this day and age making these cloud migrations? Everyone? I think the biggest challenge is everyone is in a different point in time in their cloud journey. Um, there's if you talk to a handful of customers or a rueful customers, you're not going to find one single organization that's going to be at the same point in time that matches them yet another person, another organization, in terms of how they're going about their cloud strategies, where they're deploying it at what stage of evolution there are in their organizational transformations. >>Um, and so what they're looking for is that, that that's the ability to deploy and security any application on any topic throughout their entire application life cycle. Um, and so, so the most common things that, that our customers are looking for, um, and, you know, they're doing is they're looking to secure things on the network and then interconnected to the cloud with, uh, to deliver that superior, uh, application experience. So they were deploying something like the security fabric. Uh, again, you know, Fordanet has a cybersecurity approach to that point and securing the native environments. They're looking at dev ops, they're deploying tooling to provide, uh, you know, security posture management, plus a few posture management to look at the things that are doing that, the registries, their environment, the dev environment, to then securing their cloud, uh, networks, uh, like what we do with our FortiGate solutions, where we're deploying things from the dev ops. >>I feel secure in the cloud environment with our FortiGate environments across all the various multitudes of cloud providers, uh, like, uh, AWS Azure, Google cloud, and that time that together with, with some secure, um, interconnections with SD LAN, and then tying that into the liver and productions, um, on the web application side. So it's a very much a continuous life cycle, and we're looking at various things. And again, the other example we have is because of the different places in different, uh, in terms of Tod journeys, that the number one key is the ability to then have that flexibility deployment to integrate well into existing infrastructure and build a roadmap out for, uh, cloud as they evolve. Because when you talk to customers today, um, they're not gonna know where they're going to be tomorrow. They know they need to get there. Uh, they're not sure how they're going to get there. And so what they're doing now is they're getting to cloud as quickly as they can. And then they're looking for flexibility to then kind of adjust and they need a partner like Fordanet to kind of bring that partnership and advisorship to, uh, to those organizations as they make their, their, their strategies clearer and, uh, adjust to new business demands. >>Yeah. That partnership is key there. So afforded it advocates, the importance of taking a platform approach to the application life cycle. Talk to me about what that means, and then give me like the top three considerations that customers need to be considering for this approach. >>Sure. Number one is how flexible is that deployment in terms of, do you, do customers have the option to secure and deploy any application, any cloud, do they have the flexibility of, um, integrating security into their existing toolings and then, uh, changing that out as they need, and then having a partner and a customer solution that kind of grows with that? I think that's the number one. Number two is how well are these, uh, integrations or these flexible options tied together? Um, like what we do with the security fabric, where everything kind of starts with, uh, the idea of a central management console that's, you know, uh, and consistent policies and security, um, from the get-go. And I think the third is, is looking at making sure that the, the, the security integrations, the secure intelligence is done in real time, uh, with a quality source of information, uh, and, and points of, uh, of responsiveness, um, what we do with four guard labs. >>For example, we have swell of large, um, machine learning infrastructure where have supported by all the various customer inputs and great intelligence organizations, but real time intelligence and percussion as part of that deployment life cycle. Again, this kind of really brings it all together, where organizations looking for application security and, and trying to develop in a CSED fashion. And you have the ability to then have security from the get, go hide ident to the existing toolings for flexibility, visibility, and then benefits from security all along the way with real time, you know, uh, you know, leading edge security, that then kind of brings that, that sense of confidence and reassurance as they're developing, they don't need to worry about security. Security should just be part of that. And they just need to worry about solving the customer problems and, uh, and, you know, delivering business outcomes and results. >>That's it, right? It's all about those business outcomes, but delivering that competence is key. Vince, thank you for joining me on the program today, talking through what 49 is doing, how you're helping customers to integrate security and compliance into the dev dev sec ops workflow. We appreciate your insights. >>Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. My >>Pleasure for vents Wang. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live from Los Angeles, uh, cube con and cloud native con 21 stick around at Dave Nicholson will join me next with my next guest.

hey everyone this is thecube's live coverage from los angeles of kubecon and cloud native con north america 21 lisa martin with dave nicholson we're going to be talking with the founder and ceo next of cloudnatics rohit seth rohit welcome to the program thank you very much lisa pleasure to meet you good to meet you too welcome so tell the the audience about cloudnatics what you guys do when you were founded and what was the gap in the market that you saw that said we need a solution so just to start uh cloud9x was started in 2019 by me and the reason for starting cloud netex was as i was starting to look at the cloud adoption and how enterprises are kind of almost blindly jumping on this cloud bandwagon i started reading what are the key challenges the market is facing and it started resonating with what i saw in google 15 years before when i joined google the first thing i noticed was of course the scale would just overwhelm anyone but at the same time how good they are utilized at that scale was the key that i was starting to look for and over the next couple of months i did all the scripting and such with my teams and found out that lower teens is the utilization of their computers servers and uh lower utilization means if you're spending a billion dollars you're basically wasting the major portion of that and a tech savvy company like google if that's a state of affair you can imagine what would be happening in other companies so in any case we actually now started work at that time started working on a technology so that more groups more business units could share the same machine in a efficient fashion and that's what led to the invention of containers over the next six years we rolled out containers across the whole google fleet the utilization went up at least three times right fast forward 15 years and you start reading 125 billion dollars are spent on a cloud and 60 billion dollars of waste someone would say 90 billion dollars a waste you know what i don't care whether 60 or 90 billion is a very large number and if tech savvy company google couldn't fix it on its own i bet you it it's not an easy problem for enterprises to fix it so we i started talking to several executives in the valley about is this problem for real or not the worst thing that i found was not only they didn't know how bad the problem was they actually didn't have any means to find out how bad the problem could be right one cfo just ran like headless chicken for about two months to figure out okay i know i'm spending this much but where is that spend going so i started kind of trading those waters and i started saying okay visibility is the first thing that we need to provide to the end customer saying that listen it doesn't need to be rocket science for you to figure out how much is your marketing spending how much your different business units so the first line of action is basically give them the visibility that they need to make the educated business decisions about how good or how bad they are doing their operations once they have the visibility the next thing is what to do if there is a waste there are a thousand different type of vms on aws alone people talk about complexity on multi-cloud hybrid cloud and that's all right but even on a single cloud you have thousand vms the heterogeneity of the vms with dynamic pricing that changes every so often is a killer and so and so rohit when you talk about driving levels of efficiency you're not just you're not just talking about abstraction versus bare metal utilization you're talking about even in environments that have used sort of traditional virtualization yes okay absolutely i think all clouds run in vms but within vms sometimes you have containers sometimes you don't have containers if you don't have containers there is no way for you to securely have a protagonist and antagonist job running on the same machines so containers basically came to the world just so that different applications could share the same resources in a meaningful fashion we are basically extending that landscape to to the enterprises so that that utilization benefit exists for everyone right so first of first order business for cloud natick is basically provide them the visibility on how well or bad they are doing the second is to give them the recommendation if you are not doing well what to do about it to do well and we can actually slice and dice the data based on what is important for you okay we don't tell you that these are the dimensions that you should be looking at of course we have our recommendations but we actually want you to figure out basically do you want to look at your marketing organization or your engineering organization or your product organization to see where they are spending money and you can slice and match that data according and we'll give you recommendations for those organizations but now you have the visibility now you have the recommendations but then what right if you ask a cubernities administrator to go and apply those recommendations i bet you the moment you have more than five cluster which is a kind of a very ordinary thing it'll take at least two hours just to figure out how to go from where you are to be able to log in and to be able to apply those recommendations and then changing back the ci cd pipelines and asking your developers to be cognizant about your resources next time is a month-long ordeal no one follows it that's why those recommendations falls on deaf ears most of the time what we do is we give you the choice you want to apply those recommendations manually or you can put the whole system on autopilot in which case once you have enough confidence in cloud native platform we will actually apply those recommendations for you dynamically on the fly as your workloads are increasing or decreasing in utilization and where are your customer conversations happening you mentioned the cfl you mentioned the billions in cloud waste where do you start having these conversations within an organization because clearly you mentioned marketing services you can give them that visibility across the organization who are you talking to within these customers so we start with mostly the cios ctos vp of engineering but it's very interesting we say it's a waste and i think the waste is most more of an effect than a cause the real cause is the complexity and who is having the complexity is the devops and the developers so in 99 of our customer interactions we basically start from cios and ctos but very soon we have these conversations over a week with developers and devops leads also sitting in the room saying that but this is a challenge on why i cannot do this so what we have done is to address the real cause and waste aspect of cloud computing we have we have what we call the management console through which we reduce the complexity of kubernetes operations themselves so think about how you can log into a crashing pod within two minutes rather than two hours right and this is where cloud native start differentiating from the rest of the competition out there because we provide you not only or do this recommendation do this right sizing of vm here or there but this is how you structurally fix the issue going forward right i'm not going to tell you that your containers are not going to crash loop their failures are regular part of distributed systems how you deal with them how you debug them and how you get it back up and running is a core integral part of how businesses get run that's what we provide in cloud natives platform a lot of this learning that we have is actually coming from our experience in hyperscalers we have a chief architect who is also from google he was a dl of a technology called borg and then we have sonic who was the head of products at mesosphere before so we understand what it takes for an enterprise who's primarily coming from on-prem or even the companies that are starting from cloud to scale in cloud often you hear this trillion dollar paradoxes that hey you're stupid if you don't start from cloud and you're stupid if you scale at cloud we are saying that if you're really careful about how you function on cloud it has a value prop that can actually take you to the web scalar heights without even blinking twice can you share an example of one of your favorite customer stories absolutely even by industry only where you've really shown them tremendous value in savings absolutely so a couple of discussions that happened that led like oh but we are we have already spent a team of four people trying to optimize our operations over the last year and we said that's fine uh you know what our onboarding exercise takes only 20 minutes right let's do the onboarding in about a week we will tell you if we could save you any money or not and put your best devops on this pov prove a value exercise to see if it actually help their daily life in terms of operations or not this particular customer only has 30 clusters so it's not very small but it's not very big in terms of what we are seeing in the market first thing the maximum benefit or the cost optimization that they could do over the past year using some of the tools and using their own top-class engineering shots were about seven to ten percent within a week we told them 38 without even having those engineers spend more than two hours in that week we gave them the recommendations right another two weeks because they did not want to put it on autopilot just because it's a new platform in production within next two hours they were able to apply i think at least close to 16 recommendations to their platform to get that 37 improvement in cost what are some examples of of recommendations um obviously you don't want to reveal too much of the secret sauce behind the scene but but but you know what are some what are some classic recommendations that are made so some of them could be as low-hanging fruit as or you have not right sized your vms right this is what i call a lot of companies you would find that oh you have not right side but for us that's the lowest hanging code you go in and you can tell them that whether you have right size that thing or not but in kubernetes in particular if you really look at how auto scaling up and how auto scaling down happens and particularly when you get a global federated view of the number of losses that's where our secret sources start coming and that's where we know how to load balance and how to scale vertically up or how to scale horizontally within the cluster right those kind of optimization we have not seen anywhere in the market so far and that's where the most of the value prop that our customers are seeing kind of comes out and it doesn't take uh too much time i think within a week we have enough data to to say that this service that has thousands of containers could benefit by about this much and just to kind of give you i wouldn't be able to go into the specific dollar numbers here but we are talking in at least a 5 million ish kind of a range of a spend for this cluster and think about it 37 of that if we could save that that kind of money is a real money that not only helps you save your bottom line but at that level you're actually impacting your top line of the business as well sure right that's our uh value crop that we are going to go in and completely automate you're not going to look for devops that don't exist anymore to hire one of the key challenges i'm pretty sure that you must have already heard 86 percent of businesses are not able to hire the devops and they want to hire 86 percent what happens when you don't have that devops that you want to have your existing devops want to move as fast cutting corners sometimes not because they don't know anywhere but just because there's so much pressure to do so much more they don't scale when things become brittle that's when um the fragility of the system comes up and when the demand goes up that's when the systems break but you're not prepared for that breakage just because you have not really done the all the things that you would have done if you had all the time that you needed to do the right thing it sounds like some of the microservices that are in containers that are that run the convention center here have just crashed i think it's gone hopefully the background noise didn't get picked up too much yeah but you're the so the the time to value the roi that you're able to deliver to customers is significant yes you talked about that great customer use case are there any kind of news or announcements anything that you want to kind of share here that folks can can be like looking forward to without the index absolutely so two things even though this is kubecon and everyone is focused on kubernetes kubernetes is still only about three to five percent of enterprise market okay we differentiate ourselves by saying that it doesn't matter whether you're running kubernetes or you're in running legacy vms we will come on board in your environment without you making a single line of change in less than 20 minutes and either we give you the value prop in one week or we don't all right that's number one number two we have a webinar coming on november 3rd uh please go to cloudnetix.com and subscribe or sign up for that webinar sonic and i will be presenting that webinar giving you the value proposition going through some use cases that oh we have seen with our customers so far so that we can actually educate the broader audience and let them know about this beautiful platform i think that my team has built up here all right cloudnatics.com rohit thank you for joining us sharing with us what you're doing at cloud natives why you founded the company and the tremendous impact and roi that you're able to give to your customers we appreciate learning more about the technology thank you so much and i really believe that cloud is here for stay for a long long time it's a trillion dollar market out there and if we do it right i do believe we will accelerate the adoption of cloud even further than what we have seen so far so thanks a lot lisa it's been a pleasure nice to meet you it's a pleasure we want to thank you for watching for dave nicholson lisa martin coming to you live from los angeles we are at kubecon cloudnativecon north america 21. dave and i will be right back with our next guest thank you you

(soft techno music) >> Good evening. Welcome back to the Kube. Live in Los Angeles. We are at KubeCon Cloud Native Con 2021. Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson, rounding out our day. We're going to introduce you to a new company, a new company that's new to us. I should say, log DNA. Peter Choi joins us the VP of product. Peter, welcome to the program. >> Thanks for having me. >> (Lisa) Talk to us about log DNA. Who are you guys? What do you do? >> So, you know, log DNA is a log medicine platform. Traditionally, we've been focused on, you know, offering log analysis, log management capabilities to dev ops teams. So your classic kind of troubleshooting, debugging, getting into your systems. More recently, maybe in like the last year or so we've been focused on a lot of control functionality around log medicine. So what I mean by that is a lot of people typically think of kind of the analysis or the dashboards, but with the pandemic, we noticed that you see this kind of surge of data because all of the services are being used, but you also see a downward pressure on cost, right? Because all of a sudden you don't want to be spending two X on those digital experiences. So we've been focused really on kind of tamping down kind of controls on the volume of log data coming in and making sure that they have a higher kind of signal and noise ratio. And then, you know, I'll talk about it a little bit, but we've really been honing in on how can we take those capabilities and kind of form them more in a pipeline. So log management, dev ops, you know, focusing on log data, but moving forward really focused on that flow of data. >> (Dave) So, when you talk about the flow of data and logs that are being read, make this a little more real, bring it up, bring it up just to level in terms of data, from what? >> Yeah. >> What kind of logs? What things are generating logs? What's the relevant information that's being. Kept track of? >> Yeah, I mean, so from our perspective, we're actually agnostic to data source. So we have an assist log integration. We have kind of basic API's. We have, you know, agents for any sort of operating system. Funny enough people actually use those agents to install, log DNA on robots, right? And so we have a customer they're, you know, one of the largest E-commerce platforms on, in the, in the world and they have a warehouse robots division and they installed the agent on every single one of those robots. They're, you know, they're running like arm 64 processors and they will send the log data directly to us. Right? So to us, it's no different. A robot is no different from a server is no different from an application is no different from a router. We take in all that data. Traditionally though, to answer your question, I guess, in the simplest way, mostly applications, servers, firewalls, all the traditional stuff you'd expect kind of going into a log platform. >> So you mentioned a big name customer. I've got a guess as to who that is. I won't, I won't say, but talk to us about the observability pipeline. What is that? What are the benefits in it for customers? >> (Peter) Sure. So, like if we zoom out again, you know, you think about logs traditionally. I think a lot of folks say, okay, we'll ingest the logs. We'll analyze them. What we noticed is that there's a lot of value in the step before that. So I think in the earlier days it was really novel to say, Hey, we're going to get logs and we're going to put it into a system. We're going to analyze it. We're going to centralize. Right. And that had its merits. But I think over time it got a little chaotic. And so you saw a lot of the vendors over the last three years consolidating and doing more of a single pane of glass, all the pillars of observability and whatnot. But then the downside of that is you're seeing a lot of the teams that are using that then saying being constrained by single vendor for all the ways that you can access that data. So we decided that the control point being on the analysis side on, on the very far right side was constricting. So we said, okay, let's move the control point up into a pipeline where the logs are coming to a single point of ingress. And then what we'll do is we will offer views, but also allow you to stream into other systems. So we'll allow you to stream into like a SIM or a data warehouse or something, something like that. Right? So, and you know, we're still trying to like nail down the messaging. I'm sure our marketing person's going to roast me after this. But the simplest way to think of observability pipeline is it's the step before the analysis part, that kind of ingest processes and routes the data. >> (Dave) Yeah. This is the Kube, by the way, neither one of us is a weather reporter. (laughing) So, so the technical stuff is good with us. >> Yes. It is. What are, and talk to us about some of the key features and capabilities and maybe anything that's newly announced are going to be announced. >> Yeah. For sure. So what we recently announced early access on is our streaming capabilities. So it's something that we built in conjunction with IBM and with a couple of, you know, large major institutions that we were working with on the IBM cloud. And basically we realized as we were ingesting a log data, some of those consumers wanted to access subsets of that data and other systems such as Q radar or, you know, a security product. So we ended up taking, we filtered down a subset of that data and we stream it out into those systems. And so we're taking those capabilities and then bringing it into our direct product, you know, whatever you access via logging.com. That is what's essentially going to be the seed for the kind of observability pipeline moving forward. So when you start thinking about it, all of this stuff that I mentioned, where we say, we're focusing on control, like allowing you to exclude logs, allowing you to transform logs, you take those processing capabilities, you take the streaming capabilities, you put them together and all of a sudden that's the pipeline, right? So that's the biggest focus for us now. And then we also have supporting features such as, you know, control API's. We have index rate alerting so that you can get notified if you see aberrations in the amount of flow of data. We have things like variable retention. So when a certain subset of logs come in, if you want it store it for seven days or 30 days, you can go ahead and do that because we know that a large block of logs is going to have many different use cases and many different associated values, right? >> So let's pretend for a moment that a user, somebody who has spent their money on log DNA is putting together a Yelp review and they've given you five stars. >> Yup. >> What do they say about log DNA? Why did they give you that five star rating? >> Yeah. Absolutely. I think, you know, the most common one and it's funny it's Yelp because we actually religiously mine, our G2 crowd reviews. (all laughing) And so the thing that we hear most often is, it's ease of use, right? A lot of these tools. I mean, I'm sure, you know, you're talking to founders and product leaders every day with developers. Like the, the bar, the baseline is so low, you know, a lot of, a lot of organizations where like, we'll give them the, you know, their coders, they'll figure it out. We'll just give them docs and they'll figure it out. But we, we went a little bit extra in terms of like, how can we smooth that experience so that when you go to your computer and you type in QTPL, blah, blah, blah, two lines, and all of a sudden all your logs are shipping from your cluster to log DNA. So that's the constant theme for us in all of our views is, Hey, I showed up, I signed up and within 30 minutes I had everything going that I needed to get. >> (Lisa) So fast time to value. >> Yes. >> Which is critical these days. >> Absolutely. >> Talk to me. So here we are at, at KubeCon, the CNCF community is huge. I think I, the number I saw yesterday was 138,000 contributors. Lots of activity, because we're in person, which is great. We can have those hallway networking conversations that we haven't been able to have in a year and a half. What are some of the things that you guys have heard at the booth in terms of being able to engage with the community again? >> You know, the thing that we've heard most often is just like having a finger on the pulse. It's so hard to do that because you know, when we're all at our computers, we just go from zoom to zoom. And so it, it like, unless it punches you in the face, you're not aware of it. Right. But when you come here, you look around, you go, you can start to identify trends, you hear the conversations in the hallway, you see the sessions. It's just that, that sense of, it's almost like a Phantom limb that, that sense of community and being kind of connected. I think that's the thing that we've heard most often that people are excited. And, you know, I think a lot of us are just kind of treating this like a dry run. Like we're kind of easing our way back in. And so it, you know, it felt good to be back. >> Well, they've done a great job here, right? I mean, you have to show your proof of vaccination. They're doing temperature checks, or you can show your clear health pass. So they're making it. We were talking to the executive director of CNCF earlier today and you're making it, it's not rocket science. We have enough data to know that this can be done carefully and safely. >> (David) Don't forget the wristbands. >> That's right. And, and did you see the wristbands? >> (Peter) Oh yeah. >> Yeah, yeah that's great. >> Yep, it is great. >> I was, I was on the fence by the way. I was like, I was a green or yellow, depending on the person. >> (both) Yeah. >> Yeah. But giving, giving everybody the opportunity to socialize again and to have those, those conversations that you just can't have by zoom, because you have somebody you've seen someone and it jogs your memory and also the control of do I want to shake someone's hand or do I not. They've done a great job. And I think hopefully this is a good test in the water for others, other organizations to learn. This can be done safely because of the community. You can't replicate that on video. >> (Peter) Absolutely. And I'll tell you this one for us, this is our, this is our event. This is the event for us every single year. We, we it's the only event we care about at the end of the day. So. >> What are some of the things that you've seen in the last year, in terms of where, we were talking a lot about the, the adoption of Kubernetes, kind of, where is it in its maturation state, but we've seen so much acceleration and digital transformation in the last 18 months for every industry businesses rapidly pivoting multiple times to try to, to survive one and then figure out a new way to thrive in this, this new I'll call it the new. Now I'll borrow that from a friend at Citrix, the new now, not the new normal, the new now, what are some of the things that you've seen in the last year and a half from, from your customer base in terms of what have they been coming to you saying help? >> (Peter) You know, I think going back to the earlier point about time to value, that's the thing that a lot. So a lot of our customers are, you know, very big Kubernetes, you know, they're, they're big consumers of Kubernetes. I would say, you know, for me, when I do the, we do our, our QBRs with our top customers, I would say 80% of them are huge Kubernetes shops. Right. And the biggest bottleneck for them actually is onboarding new engineers because a lot of the, and you know, we have a customer, we have better mortgage. We have, IBM, we have Rappi is a customer of ours. They're like Latin American version of Instacart. They double their engineering base and you, you know, like 18 in 18 months. And so that's, you know, I think it was maybe from 1500 to 3000 developers or so, so their thing is like, we need to get people on board as soon as possible. We need to get them in these tools, getting access to, to, to their longs, to whatever they need. And so that's been the biggest thing that we've heard over and over again is A, how can we hire? And then B when we hire them, how do we onboard them as quickly as possible, so that they're ramped up and they're adding value. >> How do you help with that onboarding, making it faster, seamless so that they can get value faster? >> So for us, you know, we really lean in on our, our customer success teams. So they do, you know, they do trainings, they do best practices. Basically. We kind of think of ourselves given how much Kubernetes contradiction we have, we think of ourselves as cross pollinators. So a lot of the times we'll go into those decks and we'll try to learn just as much as we're trying to try to teach. And then we'll go and repeat that process through every single set of our customers. So a lot of the patterns that we'll see are, well, you know, what kinds of tools are you using for orchestration? What kind of tools are you using for deployment? How are you thinking about X, Y, and Z? And then, you know, even our own SRE teams will kind of get into the mix and, you know, provide tips and feedback. >> (Lisa) Customer centricity is key. We've heard that a lot today. We hear that from a lot of companies. It's one thing to hear it. It's another thing to see it. And it sounds like the Yelp review that you would have given, or, or what you're hearing through G2 crowd. I mean, that voice of the customer is valid. That's, that's the only validation. I think that really matters because analysts are paid. >> Yeah. >> But hearing that validation through the voice of the customer consistently lets you know, we're going in the right direction here. >> Absolutely. >> I think it's, it's interesting that ease of use comes up. You wonder if those are only anonymous reviews, you don't necessarily associate open source community with cutting edge, you know, we're the people on the pirate ship. >> (Peter) Yeah. And so when, when, when people start to finally admit, you know, some ease of use would be nice. I think that's an indication of maturity at a certain point. It's saying, okay, not everyone is going to come in and sit behind a keyboard and program things in machine language. Every time we want to do some simple tasks, let's automate, let's get some ease of use into this. >> And I'll tell you in the early days it drove me and our, our CEO talker. It drove us nuts that people would say easiest to be like, that's so shallow. It doesn't mean anything. Well, you know, all of that. However, but to your point, if we don't meet the use case, if we don't have the power behind it, the ease of use is abstracting away. It's like an iceberg, right. It's abstracting away a lot. So we can't even have the ease of use conversation unless we're able to meet the use case. So, so what we've been doing is digging into that more, be like, okay, ease of use, but what were you trying to do? What, what is it that we enabled? Because ease of use, if it's a very shallow set of use cases is not as valid as ease of use for petabytes of data for an organization like IBM. Right? >> That's a great, I'm glad that you dug into that because ease of use is one of those things that you'll see it in marketing materials, but to your point, you want to know what does this actually mean? What are we delivering? >> Right. >> And now, you know what you're delivering with Peter, thank you for sharing with us about logged in and what you guys are doing, how you're helping your community of customers and hearing the voice of the customer through G2 and others. Good work. >> Thank you. And by the way, I'll be remiss if I, if I don't say this, if you're interested in learning more about some of the stuff that we're working on, just go to logging in dot com. We've got, I think we've got a banner for the early access programs that I mentioned earlier. So, you know, at the end of the day, to your point about customer centricity, everything we prioritize is based on our customers, what they need, what they tell us about. And so, you know, whatever engagement that we get from the people at the show and prospects, like that's how we drive a roadmap. >> (Lisa) Yup. That's why we're all here. Log dna.com. Peter, thank you for joining Dave and me today. We appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me. >> Our pleasure for Dave Nicholson. I'm Lisa Martin signing off from Los Angeles today. The Kubes coverage of KubeCon clouding of con 21 continues tomorrow. We'll see then. (soft techno music)

>>Mhm Welcome back to Los Angeles. The Cubans live, I can't say that enough. The Cubans live. We're at cu con cloud Native Con 21. We've been here all day yesterday and today and tomorrow talking with lots of gas. Really uncovering what's going on in the world of kubernetes, lisa martin here with Dave Nicholson. We've got some folks. Next we're gonna be talking about a customer use case, which is always one of my favorite things to talk about. Please welcome Michael Coletti, the principal platform engineer at CHG Healthcare and then cat from a christian VP of products from port works by pure storage. Guys, welcome to the program, Thank you. Happy to be here. Yeah. So Michael, first of all, let's go ahead and start with you, give the audience an overview of CHG healthcare. >>Yeah, so CHG Healthcare were a staffing company so we sure like a locum pen and so our clients are doctors and hospitals, so we help staff hospitals with temporary doctors or even permanent placing. So we deal with a lot of doctors, a lot of nursing and we're were a combination of multiple companies to see if she is the parents. So and uh yeah, we're known in the industry is one of the leaders in this, this field and providing uh hospitals with high quality uh doctors and nurses and uh you know, our customer services like number one and one of these are Ceos really focused on is now how do we make that more digital, how we provide that same level of quality of service, but a digital experience as rich for >>I can imagine there was a massive need for that in the last 18 months alone. >>Covid definitely really raised that awareness out for us and the importance of that digital experience and that we need to be out there in the digital market. >>Absolutely. So your customer report works by pure storage, we're gonna get into that. But then can talk to us about what's going on. The acquisition of port works by peer storage was about a year ago I talked to us about your VP of product, what's going on? >>Yeah, I mean, you know, first of all, I think I could not say how much of a great fit for a port works to be part of your storage. It's uh uh Pure itself is a very fast moving large start up that's a dominant leader in a flash and data center space. And you know, pure recognizes the fact that Cuban it is is the new operating system of the cloud is now how you know, it's kind of virtualizing the cloud itself and there is a, you know, a big burgeoning need for data management in communities and how you can kind of orchestrate work lords between your on prem data centers in the cloud and back. So port books fits right into the story as complete vision of data management for our customers and uh spend phenomenal or business has grown as part of being part of Pure and uh you know, we're looking at uh launching some new products as well and it's all exciting times. >>So you must have been pretty delighted to be acquired as a startup by essentially a startup because because although pure has reached significant milestones in the storage business and is a leader in flash storage still, that, that startup mindset is there, that's unique, that's not, that's not the same as being acquired by a company that's been around for 100 years seeking to revitalize >>itself. Can >>you talk a little bit about that >>aspect? So I think it will uh, Purest culture is highly innovation driven and it's a very open flat culture. Right? I mean everybody impure is accessible, it can easily have a conversation with folks and everybody has his learning mindset and Port works is and has always been in the same way. Right? So when you put these teams together, if we can create wonders, I mean we, right after that position, just within a few months we announced an integrated solution that Port works orchestrates volumes and she file shares in Pure flash products and then delivers as an integrated solution for our customers. And Pure has a phenomenal uh, cloud based monitoring and management system called Pure one that we integrated well into. Now we're bringing the power of all of the observe ability that Purest customers are used to for all of the partners customers and having super happy, you know, delivering that capability to our customers and our customers are delighted now they can have a complete view all the way from community is an >>app to the >>flash and I don't think any one company on the planet can even climb, they can do that. >>I think, I think it's fair to acknowledge that pure one was observe ability before observe ability was a word. Exactly one used regularly. So that's very interesting. >>I could talk to us about obviously you are a customer CHD as a customer of court works now Port works by peer storage. Talk to us about the use case, what what was the compelling? It was their compelling event and from a storage perspective that that led you to Port works in the >>first so we be, they began this our Ceo basically in the vision, we we need to have a digital presence, we need and hazards and this was even before Covid, so they brought me on board and my my manager read uh glass or he we basically had this task to how are we going to get out into the cloud, how we're going to make that happen And we we chose to follow very much cloud native strategy and the platform of choice. I mean it just made sense with kubernetes and so when we were looking at kubernetes, we're starting to figure out how we're doing, we knew that data is going to be a big factor, you know, um being to provide data, we're very much focused on an event driven, were really pushing to event driven architecture. So we leverage Kafka on top of kubernetes, but at the time we were actually leveraging Kafka with M S K down out in a W S and that was just a huge cost to us. So I came on board, I had experienced with poor works prior company before that and I basically said we need to figure out a great storage away overlay. And the only way to do is we gotta have high performance storage, we've got to have secure, we gotta be able to back up and recover that storage and the poor works was the right match and that allowed us to have a very smooth transition off of M S K onto kubernetes, saving us, it's a significant amount of money per month and just leverage that already existing hardware that are existing, compute memory and just in the and move right to port works, >>leveraging your existing investments. >>Exactly which is key. Very, very key. So, >>so been kept, how common are the challenges that when you guys came together with the HD, how common are the challenges? It's actually, >>that's a great question, you know, this is, I'll tell you the challenges that Michael and his team are running into is what we see a lot in the, in the industry where people pay a ton of money, you know, to, you know, to to other vendors or especially in some cases use some cloud native services, but they want to have control over the data. They want to control the cost and they want higher performance and they want to have, you know, there's also governance and regulatory things that they need to control better. So they want to kind of bring these services and have more control over them. Right? So now we will work very well with all of our partners including the cloud providers as well as uh, you know, an from several vendors and everybody but different customers are different kinds of needs and port works gives them the flexibility if you are a customer who want, you know, have a lot of control over your applications, the performance of the agency and want to control cars very well in leveraging existing investments board works can deliver that for you in your data center right now you can integrate it with pure slash and you get a complete solution or you won't run it in cloud and you still want to have leverage the agility of the cloud and scale for books delivers a solution for you as well. So it kind of not only protects their investment in future proves their architecture, you get future proving your architecture completely. So if you want to tear the cloud or burst the cloud, you have a great solution that you can continue to leverage >>when you hear a future proof and I'm a marketer. So I always go, I love to know what it means to different people, what does that mean to you in your environment? >>My environment. So a future proof means like one of the things we've been addressing lately, that's just a real big challenge and I'm sure it's a challenge in the industry, especially Q and A's is upgrading our clusters ability to actually maintain a consistent flow with how fast kubernetes is growing, you know, they they're out I think yes, we leverage eks so it's like 1 21 or 1 22 now, uh that effort to upgrade a cluster, it can be a daunting one with port works. We actually were able to make that to where we could actually spin up a brand new cluster and with port work shift, all our application services, data migrated completely over poor works, handles all that for us and stand up that new cluster in less than a day. And that effort, it would take us a week, two weeks to do so not even man hours the time spent there, but just the reliability of being able to do that and the cost, you know, instead of standing up a new cluster and configuring it and doing all that and spending all that time, we can just really, we move to what we call blue green cut over strategy and port works is an essential piece of that. >>So is it fair to say that there are a variety of ways that people approach port works from a, from a value perspective in terms of, I I know that one area that you are particularly good in is the area of backups in this environment, but then you get data management and there's a third kind of vector there. What is the third vector? >>Yeah, it's all of the data services. Data services, like for example, database as a service on any kubernetes cluster paid on your cloud or you're on from data centers, which >>data, what kind of databases >>you were talking about? Anything from Red is Kafka Postgres, my sequel, you know, council were supporting, we just announced something called port books, data services offering that essentially delivers all these databases as a service on any kubernetes cluster uh that that a customer can point to unless than kind of get the automated management of the database on day one to day three, the entire life cycle. Um you know, through regular communities, could curdle experience through Api and SDK s and a nice slick ui that they can, you know, just role based access control and all of that, that they can completely control their data and their applications through it. And, you know, that's the third vector of potatoes Africans >>like a question for you. So what works has been a part of peer storage? You've known it since obviously for several years before you were a c h G, you brought up to see H G, you now know it a year into being acquired by a fast paced startup. Talk to me about the relationship and some of the benefits that you're getting with port works as a part of pure storage. >>Well, I mean one of the things, you know, when, when I heard about the accusation, my first thing was I was a little bit concerned is that relationship going to change and when we were acquiring, when we're looking at a doctor and Poor works, One thing I would tell my management is poor works is not just a vendor that wants to throw a solution on you and provide some capability there, partner, they want to partner with you and your success in your journey and this whole cloud native journey to provide this rich digital experience for not only our platform engineering team, but our dev teams, but also be able to really accelerate the development of our services so we can provide that digital portal for our end users and that didn't change. If anything that accelerated that that relationship did not change. You know, I came to the cat with an issue we just, we're dealing with, he immediately got someone on the phone call with me and so that has not changed. So it's really exciting to see that now that they've been acquired that they still are very much invested in the success of their customers and making sure we're successful. You know, it's not all of a sudden I was worried I was gonna have to do a whole different support process and it's gonna go into a black hole didn't happen. They still are very much involved with their customers. And >>that sounds kind of similar to what you talked about with the cultural alignment I've known here for a long time and they're very customer centric. Sounds like one of the areas in which there was a very strong alignment with port works. >>Absolutely important works has always taken pride in being customer. First company. Our founders are heavily customer focused. Uh, you know, they are aligned. They want, they have always aligned uh, the portraits business to our customers needs. Uh Pure is a company that's men. I actually focused on customers, right? I mean, that's all, you know, purist founder cause and everybody care about and so, you know, bringing these companies together and being part of the pure team. I kind of see how synergistic it is. And you know, we have, you know, that has enabled us to serve our customers customers even better than before. >>So, I'm curious about the two of you personally, in terms of your histories, I'm going to assume that you didn't both just bounce out of high school into the world of kubernetes, right? So like lisa and I your spanning the generations between the world of, say, virtualization based on X 86 architecture and virtualization where you can have microservices, you have a full blown operating system that you're working with, that kind of talk about, you know, Michael with you first talk about what that's been like navigating that change. We were in the midst of that, Do you have advice for others that are navigating that change? >>Don't be afraid of it, you know, a lot of people want to, you know, I call it, we're moving from where we're uh naming, we still have cats and dogs, they have a name, the VMS either whether or not their physical boxes or their VMS to where it's more like it's a cattle, you know, it's like we don't own the Os and not to be afraid afraid of that because change is really good. You know, the ability for me to not have to worry about patching and operating system is huge, you know, where I can rely on someone like the chaos and and the version and allow them to, if CV comes out, they let me know I go and I use their tools to be able to upgrade. So I don't have to literally worry about owning that Os and continues the same thing. You know, you, you, you know, it's all about being fault tolerant, right? And being able to be changed where you can actually brought a new version of a container, a base image with a lot of these without having to go and catch a bunch of servers, I mean patch night was held, I'm sorry if I could say that, but it was a nightmare, you know, but this whole world has just been a game changer >>with that. So Van cut from your perspective, you were coming at it, going into a startup, looking at the landscape in the future and seeing opportunity, um what what what's that been like for you? I guess the question for you is more something lisa and I talk about this concept of peak kubernetes, where are we in the wave, is this just is this just the beginning, are we in the thick of it? >>Yeah, I think I would say we're kind of transitioning from earlier doctors too early majority face in the whole, you know, um crossing the chasm analogy. Right, so uh I would say we're still the early stages of this big wave that's going to transform how infrastructure is built, apps are, apps are built and managed and run in production. Um I think some of the uh pieces, the key pieces are falling in place and maturing, uh there are some other pieces like observe ability and security, uh you know, kind of edge use cases need to be, you know, they're kind of going to get a lot more mature and you'll see that the cloud as we know today and the apps as we know today, they're going to be radically different and you know, if you're not building your apps and your business on this modern platform, on this modern infrastructure, you're gonna be left behind. Um, you know, I, my wife's birthday was a couple of days ago. I was telling this story a couple of friends is that I r I used another flowers delivery website. Uh they missed delivering the flowers on the same day, right? So when they told me all kinds of excuses, then I just went and looked up, you know, like door dash, which delivers uh, you know, and then, you know, like your food, but there's also flower delivery, indoor dash and I don't do it, I door dash flowers to her and I can track the flower does all the way she did not eat them, okay, You need them. But my kids love the chocolates though. So, you know, the case in point is that you cannot be, you know, building a modern business without leveraging the moral toolchain and modern toolchain and how the business is going to be delivered. That that thing is going to be changing dramatically. And those kind of customer experience, if you don't deliver, uh, you're not gonna be successful in business and communities is the fundamental technology that enables these containers. It's a fundamental piece of technology that enables building new businesses, you know, modernizing existing businesses and the five G is gonna be, there's gonna be new innovations that's going to get unleashed. And uh, again, communities and containers enable us to leverage those. And so we're still scratching the surface on this, it's big now, it's going to be much, much bigger as we go to the next couple of years. >>Speaking of scratching the surface, Michael, take us out in the last 30 seconds or so with where CHG healthcare is on its digital transformation. How is port works facilitating that? >>So we're right in the thick of it. I mean we are we still have what we call the legacy, we're working on getting those. But I mean we're really moving forward um to provide that rich experience, especially with inventing driven platforms like Kafka and Kubernetes and partnering with port works is one of the key things for us with that and a W s along with that. But we're, and I remember I heard a talk and I can't, I can't remember me but he he talked about how, how kubernetes just sort of like 56 K. Modem, You're hearing it, see, but it's got to get to the point where it's just there, it's just the high speed internet and Kelsey Hightower, That's who Great. Yeah, and I really like that because that's true, you know, and that's where we're on that transition, where we're still early, it's still that 50. So you still want to hear a note, you still want to do cube Cto, you want to learn it the hard way and do all that fun stuff, but eventually it's gonna be where it's just, it's just there and it's running everything like five G. I mean stripped down doing Micro K. It's things like that, you know, we're gonna see it in a lot of other areas and just proliferate and really accelerate uh the industry and compute and memory and, and storage and >>yeah, a lot of acceleration guys, thank you. This has been a really interesting session. I always love digging into customer use cases how C H. G is really driving its evolution with port works Venkat. Thanks for sharing with us. What's going on with port works a year after the acquisition. It sounds like all good stuff. >>Thank you. Thanks for having us. It's been fun, our >>pleasure. Alright for Dave Nicholson. I'm lisa martin. You're watching the cube live from Los Angeles. This is our coverage of Yukon cloud native Con 21 mhm

>> Welcome back to Los Angeles. The cube is live. It feels so good to say that. I'm going to say that again. The cube is alive in Los Angeles. We are a coop con cloud native con 21. Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson. We're talking to storm forge next. Cool name, right? We're going to get to the bottom of that. Please welcome Matt Provo, the founder and CEO of storm forge and Tom Ellery, the SVP of revenue storm forge, guys, welcome to the program. Thanks for having us. So storm forge, you have to say it like that. Like I feel like do you guys wear Storm trooper outfits on Halloween. >> Sometimes Storm trooper? The colors are black. You know, we hit anvils from time to time. >> I thought I, I thought they, that I saw >> Or may not be a heavy metal band that might be infringing on our name. It's all good. That's where we come from. >> I see. So you, so you started the company in 2015. Talk to me about the Genesis of the company. What were some of the gaps in the market that you saw that said we got to come in here and solve this? >> Yeah, so I was fortunate to always know. I think when you start a company, sometimes you, you know exactly the set of problems that you want to go after and potentially why you might be uniquely set up to solve it. What we knew at the beginning was we had a number of really talented data scientists. I was frustrated by the buzzwords around AI and machine learning when under the hood, this really a lot of vaporware. And so at the outset, really the, the point was build something real at the core, connect that to a set of problems that could drive value. And when we looked at really the beginnings of Kubernetes and containerization five, six years ago at its Genesis, we saw just a bunch of opportunity for machine learning, to play the right kind of role if we could build it correctly. And so at the outset it was what's going on. Why are people are people moving content workloads over to containers in the first place? And, you know, because of the flexibility and the portability around Kubernetes, we then ran into quickly its complexity. And within that complexity was really the foundation to set up the company and the solution for prob a set of problems uniquely and most beneficially solved by using machine learning. And so when we sort of brought that together and designed out some ideas, we, we did what any, any founder with a product background would do. We went and talked to a bunch of potential users and kind of tried to validate the problems themselves and, and got a really positive response. So. >> So Tom, from a business perspective, what, what attracted you to this? >> Well, initially I wasn't attracted just, I'll say that just from a startup standpoint. So I've been in the industry for 30 years, I've done six or seven pre IPO companies. I was exiting a private company. I did not want to go do another startup company, but being in the largest enterprise companies for the last 20 years, you see Kubernetes like wildfire in these places. And you knew there was huge amount of complexity and sophistication when they deployed it. So I started talking to Matt early on. He explained what they were doing and how unique the offer was around machine learning. I already knew the problems that customers had at scale with Kubernetes. So it was for me, I said, all right, I'm going to take one more run at this with Matt. I think we're, we're in a great position to differentiate ourselves. So that was really the launch pad for me, was really the technology and the market space. Those, those two things in combination are very exciting for us as a business. >> And, you know, a couple of bottles of amazing wine and a number of dinners that. >> Helps as well. >> That definitely helped twist his arm? >> Now tell us, just really kind of get into the technology. What does it do? How does it help facilitate the Kubernetes environment? >> Yeah, absolutely. So when organizations start moving workloads over to Kubernetes and get their applications up and running, there's a number of amazing organizations, whether it's through cloud providers or otherwise that that sort of solved that day one problem, those challenges. And as I was mentioning, you know, they moved because of flexibility and so developers love it and it starts to create a great experience, but there's these set of expectations. >> Where, where typically are these moving from? What you, what, what are the, what are the top three environments these are, that these are moving out of? >> Yeah. I mean, of course, non containerized environments, more generally. They could be coming from, you know, bare metal environment and it could be coming from kind of a VM driven environment. >> Okay. >> So when you look back at kind of the, the growth and Genesis and of VMs, you see a lot of parallels to what we're seeing now with, with containerization. And so as you move, it's, it's exciting. And then you get smacked in the face with the complexity, for all of the knobs that are able to be turned within a Kubernetes environment. It gives developers a lot of flexibility. These knobs, as you turn them, you have no visibility into how into the impact on the application itself. And so often organizations are become, you know, becoming more agile shipping, you know, shipping code more quickly, but then all of a sudden the, the cloud bill comes and they've, over-provisioned by 80, 90%, the, they didn't need nearly as many resources. And so what we do is we help understand the unique goals and requirements for each of the applications that are running in Kubernetes. And we have machine learning capabilities that can predict very accurately what organizations will need from a resource standpoint, in order to meet their goals, not just from a cost standpoint, but also from a performance standpoint. And so we allow organizations to typically save usually between 40 and 60% off their cloud bill and usually increased performance between 30 and 50%. Historically developers had to choose between cost and performance and their worldview on the application environment was very limited to a small set of what we would call parameters or metrics that they could choose from. And machine learning allows that world to just be blown open and not many humans are, are sophisticated in the way we think about multidimensional math to be able to make those kinds of predictions. You're talking about billions and billions of combinations, not just in a static environment, but an ongoing basis. So our technology sits in the middle of all that chaos and, and allows it to allows organizations just to re reap a whole lot of benefits that they otherwise may not ever find. >> Those numbers that you mentioned were, were big from a cost savings perspective than a performance increased perspective, which is so critical these days is in the last 18 months, we've seen so much change. We've seen massive pivots from companies in every industry to survive first of all, and then to be able to thrive and be able to iterate quickly enough to develop new products and services and get them to market to be competitive. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Sorry. I mean, the thing that's interesting, there was an article by Andreessen Horowitz. I don't know if you've taken to the cloud paradox. So we actually, if you start looking at that great example would be some of these cloud companies that are growing like astronomical rates, snowflakes, like phenomenal what they're doing, but go look at their cogs and what it's doing. Also, it's growing almost proportionately as the revenues growing. So you need to be able to solve that problem in a way that is sophisticated enough with machine learning algorithms, that people don't have to be in the loop to do it. And that the math can prove out the solution as you go out and scale your environments. And a lot of companies now are all transitioning over SAS based platforms, and they're going to start running into these problems that they go as they go to scale. And those are the areas that we're really focused and concentrating on as an organization. >> As the leader of sales, talk to me about the voice of the customer. What are some- you've been there six months or so we heard, we heard about the wine and the dinners is obvious. >> We haven't done a lot of that over the last 18 months. >> You'll have to make for lost time then >> As soon as he closes more business. >> Oh, oh there we go, we got that on camera! >> There's, there's been three, a market spaces that we've had some really good success in that. So we talked about a SAS marketplace. So there's a company that does Drupal and Matt knows very well up in Boston, Aquia. And they have every customer is a unique snowflake customer. So they need to optimize each of their customers in order to ensure the cost as well as performance for that customer on their site works appropriately. So that's one example of a SAS based company that where we can go in and help them optimize without humans doing the optimization and the math and the machine learning from storm forge doing that. So that's an area, the other area that we've seen some really good traction Cantonese with GSI. So part of our go to market model is with GSI. So if you think about what a GSI does, a lot of times customers are struggling either initially deploying Kubernetes or putting it in for 12, 18 months and realizing we're starting to scale, we got all kinds of performance issues. How do I solve it? A lot of these people go to the Accentures, the cognizance and other ones, and start flying their ninjas into kind of solve the problem. So we're getting a lot of traction with them because they're using our tool as a way to help solve the customer's problems. And they're in the largest enterprise customers as possible. >> So if I'm hearing what you're saying correctly, you're saying that when I deploy server less applications, I may in fact, get a bill for servers that are being used? Is it, is that what you're telling us? >> They're there in fact may be a bill for what was coined as server less. That is very difficult to understand, by the way, >> That's crazy talk, Matt. >> And connect back. >> Yeah. But absolutely we deal with that all the time. It's a, it's a painful process from time to time. >> Have you, have you, have you seen the statistics that's going on with how people, I mean, there was huge inertia from every CIO that you had have a cloud strategy in place. Everyone ran out and had a cloud strategy in place. And then they started deploying on Kubernetes. Now they're realizing, oh wow, we can run it, but it's costing us more than it ever costs us on prem and the operational complexity associated with that. So there's not enough people in the industry to help solve that problem, especially at the grass roots, that's where you need sophisticated solutions like storm forge and machine learning to help solve this at scale problem in a way that humans could never solve. >> And I would, I would just add to that, that the, the same humans managing the Kubernetes application environments today are likely the same humans that we're managing it in a, in a BM world. So there's a huge skills gap. I love what Castin announced at KU KU con this year around their learning environment where it's free. Come learn Kubernetes and this, and we need more of that. There's an enormous skills gap and, and the problems are complex enough in and of themselves. But when we have, when you add that to the skills gap, it it's, it presents a lot of challenges for organizations. >> What are some the ways in which you think that gap can start to be made smaller. >> Yeah. I mean, I think as more workloads get moved over, over, you know, over time, you see, you see more and more people becoming comfortable in an environment where scale is a part of what they have to manage and take care of. I love what the Linux foundation and the CNCF are doing around Kubernetes certifications, you know, more and more training. I think you're going to see training, you know, availability for more and more developers and practitioners be adopted more widely. You know, and I think that, you know, as the tool chain itself hardens within a CCD world in a containerized world, as that hardens, you're going to, you're going to start seeing more and more individuals who are comfortable across all these different tools. If you look at the CNCF landscape, I mean, today compared to four or five years ago, it's growing like crazy. And so, but, but there's also consolidation taking place within the tools. And people have an opportunity to, to learn and gain expertise within us. Which is very marketable by the way, >> Absolutely >> My employees often show me their LinkedIn profiles and remind me of how , how much they're getting recruited, but they've been loyal. So it's been a fantastic. >> Are there are so many parallels when you look at a VM in virtualization and what's happening with covers, obviously all the abstractions and stuff, but there was this whole concept of VM sprawl, you know, maybe 10 years in, if you think about the Kubernetes environment, that is exponentially bigger problem because of how many they're spitting up versus how, how many you spun up in VM. So those things ultimately need to be solved. It's not just going to be solved with people. It needs to be solved with sophisticated software. That's the only way you're going to solve a problem at scale like that. No matter how many people you have in the industry, it's just never going to solve the problem. >> So when you're in customer conversations, Tom, what are you say are like the top three differentiators that really set storm forage apart? >> Well, so the first one is we're very focused on Kubernetes only. So that's all we do is just Kubernetes environment. So we understand not just the applications that run in Kubernetes, but we understand the underlying architectures and techniques, which we think is really important. From a solution standpoint, >> So you're specialists? >> We are absolutely specialists. The other areas obviously are machine learning and the sophistication of our machine learning. And Matt said this really well, early on, I mean, the buzzwords are all out there. You can read them all up, all over the place for the last five to seven year AI and ML. And a lot of them are very hollow, but our whole foundation was based on machine learning and PhDs from Harvard. That's where we came out of from a technology background. So we were solving more, we weren't just solving the Kubernetes problems. We were solving machine learning problems. And so that's another really big area of differential for us. And I think the ability to actually scale and not just deal with small problems, but very large problems, because our focus is the fortune 2000 companies. And most of them have been deploying like financial services and stuff, Kubernetes for three, four or five years. And so they have had scale challenges that they're trying to solve. >> Yeah. It's Lisa and I talk about this concept of machine learning and looking under the covers and trying to find out is the machine really learning? Is it really learning or is it people are telling the machine, you need to do this. If you see that Where's the machine actually making those correlations and doing something intelligently. So can you give us an example of something that is actually happening that's intelligent? >> Well, so the, the, if this, then that problem is actually a huge source of my original frustration for starting the company, because you, you, you tag AI as a buzzword onto a lot of stuff. And we see that growing like crazy. And so I literally at the beginning said, if we can't actually build something real, that solves problems, like we're going to hang it up. And, you know, as Tom said, we came out of Harvard and, you know, there was a challenge initially of, are we just going to build like a really amazing algorithm? That's so heavy, it can never be productized or commercialized and it really should have just stayed in academia. And, you know, I the I, I will say a couple of things. One is I do not believe that that black box AI is a thing. We believe in what we would call human, augmented AI. So we want to empower practitioners and developers into the process instead of automate them out. We just want to give them the information and we want to save time for them and make their lives easier. But there's a kill switch on the technology. They can intervene at any point in time. They can direct the technology as they see fit. And what's really, really interesting is because their worldview of this application environment gets opened up by all the predictions and all of the learning that actually is taking place and, you know, give it because that worldview is open, they then get into a kind of a tinkering or experimental mindset with the technology. And they start thinking about all these other scenarios that they never were able to explore previously with the application. And, and so the machine learning itself is on an ongoing basis. Understanding changes in traffic, understanding and changes, changes in workloads for the application or demand. If you thought about like surge pricing for Uber, you know, because of a, a big game that took place. And you know, that, that change in peaks and valleys in demand, our, our technology not only understands those reactively, but it starts to build models and predict proactively in advance of the events that are going to take place on, on what ne- what kind of resources need to be allocated. And why that's the other piece around it is often solutions are giving you a little bit of a what, but they certainly are not giving you any explanation of the why. So the holy grail really like in our world is kind of truly explainable AI, which we're not there yet. Nobody's there yet. But human augmented AI with, with actual intelligence that's taking place that also is relevant to business outcomes is, is pretty exciting. So that's why where try to operate. >> Very exciting guys. Thanks for joining us, talking to us about storm forage, to feel like we need some store in forge. T-shirts what do you think? >> (unintelligible) >> See, I'm not even asking for the bottle of wine. I liked that idea. I thank Matt and Tom, thank you so much for joining us exciting company. Congratulations on your success. And we look forward to seeing what great things are to come from storm forage. >> Thanks so much for the time. >> Our pleasure. For Dave Nicholson. I'm Lisa Martin. We are alive in Los Angeles, the cube covering Kube con and cloud native con 21 stick around. Dave and I will be right back with our next guest.

>>Welcome to this cube conversation. I'm Dave Nicholson and we're having this conversation in advance of cube con cloud native con north America, 2021. Uh, we are going to be talking specifically about a subject near and dear to my heart, and that is security. We have a very special guest from red hat, the security lead from the office of the CTO. New kinds. Welcome. Welcome to the cube Luke. >>Oh, it's great to be here. Thank you, David. Really looking forward to this conversation. >>So you have a session, uh, at a CubeCon slash cloud native con this year. And, uh, frankly, I look at the title and based on everything that's going on in the world today, I'm going to accuse you of clickbait because the title of your session is a secure supply chain vision. Sure. What other than supply chain has is in the news today, all of these things going on, but you're talking about the software supply chain. Aren't you tell, tell us about, tell us about this vision, where it came from Phyllis in. >>Yes, very much. So I do agree. It is a bit of a buzzword at the moment, and there is a lot of attention. It is the hot topic, secure supply chains, thanks to things such as the executive order. And we're starting to see an increase in attacks as well. So there's a recent statistic came out that was 620%. I believe increase since last year of supply chain attacks involving the open source ecosystem. So things are certainly ramping up. And so there is a bit of clickbait. You got me there. And um, so supply chains, um, so it's predominantly let's consider what is a supply chain. Okay. And we'll, we'll do this within the context of cloud native technology. Okay. Cause there's many supply chains, you know, many, many different software supply chains. But if we look at a cloud native one predominantly it's a mix of people and machines. >>Okay. So you'll have your developers, uh, they will then write code. They will change code and they'll typically use our, a code revision control system, like get, okay, so they'll make their changes there. Then push those changes up to some sort of repository, typically a get Harbor or get level, something like that. Then another human will then engage and they will review the code. So somebody that's perhaps a maintain will look at the code and they'll improve that a code. And then at the same time, the machine start to get involved. So you have your build servers that run tests and integration tests and they check the code is linted correctly. Okay. And then you have this sort of chain of events that start to happen. These machines, these various actors that start to play their parts in the chain. Okay. So your build system might generate a container image is a very common thing within a cloud native supply chain. >>Okay. And then that image is typically deployed to production or it's hosted on a registry, a container registry, and then somebody else might utilize that container image because it has software that you've packaged within that container. Okay. And then this sort of prolific expansion of use of coasts where people start to rely on other software projects for their own dependencies within their code. Okay. And you've got this kind of a big spaghetti of actors that are dependent on each other and feed him from each other. Okay. And then eventually that is deployed into production. Okay. So these machines are a lot of them non open source code. Okay. Even if there is a commercial vendor that manages that as a service, it's all based on predominantly open source code. Okay. And the security aspects with the supply chain is there's many junctures where you can exploit that supply chain. >>So you can exploit the human, or you could be a net ferrous human in the first place you could steal somebody's identity. Okay. And then there's the build systems themselves where they generate these artifacts and they run jobs. Okay. And then there are the production system, which pulls these down. Okay. And then there's the element of which we touched upon around libraries and dependencies. So if you look at a lot of projects, they will have approximately around a hundred, perhaps 500 dependencies that they all pull in from. Okay. So then you have the supply chains within each one of those, they've got their own set of humans and machines. And so it's a very large spaghetti beast of, of, of sort of dependence and actors and various identities that make up. >>Yeah. You're, you're describing a nightmarish, uh, scenario here. So, uh, so, so I definitely appreciate the setup there. It's a chain of custody nightmare. Yeah. >>Yes. Yeah. But it's also a wonderful thing because it's allowed us to develop in the paradigms that we have now very fast, you know, you can, you can, you can prototype and design and build and ship very fast, thanks to these tools. So they're wonderful. It's not to say that they're, you know, that there is a gift there, but security has arguably been left as a bit of an afterthought essentially. Okay. So security is always trying to it's at the back of the race. It's always trying to catch up with you. See what I mean? So >>Well, so is there a specific reason why this is particularly timely? Um, in, you know, when we, when we talk about deployment of cloud native applications, uh, something like 75% of what we think of is it is still on premesis, but definitely moving in the direction of what we loosely call cloud. Um, is why is this particularly timely? >>I think really because of the rampant adoption that we see. So, I mean, as you rightly say, a lot of, uh, it companies are still running on a, sort of a, more of a legacy model okay. Where deployments are more monolithic and statics. I mean, we've both been around for a while when we started, you would, you know, somebody would rack a server, they plug a network cable and you'd spend a week deploying the app, getting it to run, and then you'd walk away and leave it to a degree. Whereas now obviously that's really been turned on its head. So there is a, an element of not everybody has adopted this new paradigm that we have in development, but it is increasing, there is rapid adoption here. And, and many that aren't many that rather haven't made that change yet to, to migrate to a sort of a cloud type infrastructure. >>They certainly intend to, well, they certainly wished to, I mean, there's challenges there in itself, but it, I would say it's a safe bet to say that the prolific use of cloud technologies is certainly increasing as we see in all the time. So that also means the attack vectors are increasing as we're starting to see different verticals come into this landscape that we have. So it's not just your kind of a sort of web developer that are running some sort of web two.site. We have telcos that are starting to utilize cloud technology with virtual network functions. Uh, we have, um, health banking, FinTech, all of these sort of large verticals are starting to come into cloud and to utilize the cloud infrastructure model that that can save them money, you know, and it can make them, can make their develop more agile and, you know, there's many benefits. So I guess that's the main thing is really, there's a convergence of industries coming into this space, which is starting to increase the security risks as well. Because I mean, the security risks to a telco are a very different group to somebody that's developing a web platform, for example. >>Yeah. Yeah. Now you, you, uh, you mentioned, um, the sort of obvious perspective from the open source perspective, which is that a lot of this code is open source code. Um, and then I also, I assume that it makes a lot of sense for the open source community to attack this problem, because you're talking about so many things in that chain of custody that you described where one individual private enterprise is not likely to be able to come up with something that handles all of it. So, so what's your, what's your vision for how we address this issue? I know I've seen in, um, uh, some of the content that you've produced an allusion to this idea that it's very similar to the concept of a secure HTTP. And, uh, and so, you know, imagine a world where HTTP is not secure at any time. It's something we can't imagine yet. We're living in this parallel world where, where code, which is one of the four CS and cloud security, uh, isn't secure. So what do we do about that? And, and, and as you share that with us, I want to dive in as much as we can on six store explain exactly what that is and, uh, how you came up with this. >>Yes, yes. So, so the HTTP story's incredibly apt for where we are. So around the open source ecosystem. Okay. We are at the HTTP stage. Okay. So a majority of code is pulled in on trusted. I'm not talking about so much here, somebody like a red hat or, or a large sort of distributor that has their own sign-in infrastructure, but more sort of in the, kind of the wide open source ecosystem. Okay. The, um, amount of code that's pulled in on tested is it's the majority. Okay. So, so it is like going to a website, which is HTTP. Okay. And we sort of use this as a vision related to six store and other projects that are operating in this space where what happened effectively was it was very common for sites to run on HTTP. So even the likes of Amazon and some of the e-commerce giants, they used to run on HTTP. >>Okay. And obviously they were some of the first to, to, uh, deploy TLS and to utilize TLS, but many sites got left behind. Okay. Because it was cumbersome to get the TLS certificate. I remember doing this myself, you would have to sort of, you'd have to generate some keys, the certificate signing request, you'd have to work out how to run open SSL. Okay. You would then go to an, uh, a commercial entity and you'd probably have to scan your passport and send it to them. And there'll be this kind of back and forth. Then you'll have to learn how to configure it on your machine. And it was cumbersome. Okay. So a majority just didn't bother. They just, you know, they continue to run their, their websites on protected. What effectively happened was let's encrypt came along. Okay. And they disrupted that whole paradigm okay. >>Where they made it free and easy to generate, procure, and set up TLS certificates. So what happened then was there was a, a very large change that the kind of the zeitgeists changed around TLS and the expectations of TLS. So it became common that most sites would run HTTPS. So that allowed the browsers to sort of ring fence effectively and start to have controls where if you're not running HTTPS, as it stands today, as it is today is kind of socially unacceptable to run a site on HTTP is a bit kind of, if you go to HTTP site, it feels a bit, yeah. You know, it's kind of, am I going to catch a virus here? It's kind of, it's not accepted anymore, you know, and, and it needed that disruptor to make that happen. So we want to kind of replicate that sort of change and movement and perception around software signing where a lot of software and code is, is not signed. And the reason it's not signed is because of the tools. It's the same story. Again, they're incredibly cumbersome to use. And the adoption is very poor as well. >>So SIG stores specifically, where did this, where did this come from? And, uh, and, uh, what's your vision for the future with six? >>Sure. So six door, six doors, a lockdown project. Okay. It started last year, July, 2020 approximately. And, uh, a few people have been looking at secure supply chain. Okay. Around that time, we really started to look at it. So there was various people looking at this. So it's been speaking to people, um, various people at Purdue university in Google and, and other, other sort of people trying to address this space. And I'd had this idea kicking around for quite a while about a transparency log. Okay. Now transparency logs are actually, we're going back to HTTPS again. They're heavily utilized there. Okay. So when somebody signs a HTTPS certificate as a root CA, that's captured in this thing called a transparency log. Okay. And a transparency log is effectively what we call an immutable tamper proof ledger. Okay. So it's, it's kind of like a blockchain, but it's different. >>Okay. And I had this idea of what, if we could leverage this technology okay. For secure supply chain so that we could capture the provenance of code and artifacts and containers, all of these actions, these actors that I described at the beginning in the supply chain, could we utilize that to provide a tamper resistant publicly or DePaul record of the supply chain? Okay. So I worked on a prototype wherever, uh, you know, some, uh, a week or two and got something basic happening. And it was a kind of a typical open source story there. So I wouldn't feel right to take all of the glory here. It was a bit like, kind of, you look at Linux when he created a Linux itself, Linus, Torvalds, he had an idea and he shared it out and then others started to jump in and collaborate. So it's a similar thing. >>I, um, shared it with an engineer from Google's open source security team called Dan Lawrence. Somebody that I know of been prolific in this space as well. And he said, I'd love to contribute to this, you know, so can I work this? And I was like, yeah, sure though, you know, the, the more, the better. And then there was also Santiago professor from Purdue university took an interest. So a small group of people started to work on this technology. So we built this project that's called Rico, and that was effectively the transparency log. So we started to approach projects to see if they would like to, to utilize this technology. Okay. And then we realized there was another problem. Okay. Which was, we now have a storage for signed artifacts. Okay. A signed record, a Providence record, but nobody's signing anything. So how are we going to get people to sign things so that we can then leverage this transparency log to fulfill its purpose of providing a public record? >>So then we had to look at the signing tools. Okay. So that's where we came up with this really sort of clever technology where we've managed to create something called ephemeral keys. Okay. So we're talking about a cryptographic key pair here. Okay. And what we could do we found was that we could utilize other technologies so that somebody wouldn't have to manage the private key and they could generate keys almost point and click. So it was an incredibly simple user experience. So then we realized, okay, now we've got an approach for getting people to sign things. And we've also got this immutable, publicly audited for record of people signing code and containers and artifacts. And that was the birth of six store. Then. So six store was created as this umbrella project of all of these different tools that were catering towards adoption of signing. And then being able to provide guarantees and protections by having this transparency log, this sort of blockchain type technology. So that was where we really sort of hit the killer application there. And things started to really lift off. And the adoption started to really gather steam then. >>So where are we now? And where does this go into the future? One of the, one of the wonderful things about the open source community is there's a sense of freedom in the creativity of coming up with a vision and then collaborating with others. Eventually you run headlong into expectations. So look, is this going to be available for purchase in Q1? What's the, >>Yeah, I, I will, uh, I will fill you in there. Okay. So, so with six door there's, um, there's several different models that are at play. Okay. I'll give you the, the two predominant ones. So one, we plan, we plan to run a public service. Okay. So this will be under the Linux foundation and it'll be very similar to let's encrypt. So you as a developer, if you want to sign your container, okay. And you want to use six door tooling that will be available to you. There'll be non-profit three to use. There's no specialties for anybody. It's, it's there for everybody to use. Okay. And that's to get everybody doing the right thing in signing things. Okay. The, the other model for six stories, this can be run behind a firewall as well. So an enterprise can stand up their own six store infrastructure. >>Okay. So the transparency log or code signing certificates, system, client tools, and then they can sign their own artifacts and secure, better materials, all of these sorts of things and have their own tamper-proof record of everything that's happened. So that if anything, untoward happens such as a key compromise or somebody's identity stolen, then you've got a credible source of truth because you've got that immutable record then. So we're seeing, um, adoption around both models. We've seen a lot of open source projects starting to utilize six store. So predominantly key, um, Kubernetes is a key one to mention here they are now using six store to sign and verify their release images. Okay. And, uh, there's many other open-source projects that are looking to leverage this as well. Okay. And then at the same time, various people are starting to consider six door as being a, sort of an enterprise signing solution. So within red hat, our expectations are that we're going to leverage this in open shift. So open shift customers who wish to sign their images. Okay. Uh, they want to sign their conflicts that they're using to deploy within Kubernetes and OpenShift. Rather they can start to leverage this technology as open shift customers. So we're looking to help the open source ecosystem here and also dog food, this, and make it available and useful to our own customers at red hat. >>Fantastic. You know, um, I noticed the red hat in the background and, uh, and, uh, you know, I just a little little historical note, um, red hat has been there from the beginning of cloud before, before cloud was cloud before there was anything credible from an enterprise perspective in cloud. Uh, I, I remember in the early two thousands, uh, doing work with tree AWS and, uh, there was a team of red hat folks who would work through the night to do kernel level changes for the, you know, for the Linux that was being used at the time. Uh, and so a lot of, a lot of what you and your collaborators do often falls into the category of, uh, toiling in obscurity, uh, to a certain degree. Uh, we hope to shine light on the amazing work that you're doing. And, um, and I, for one appreciate it, uh, I've uh, I've, I've suffered things like identity theft and, you know, we've all had brushes with experiences where compromise insecurity is not a good thing. So, um, this has been a very interesting conversation. And again, X for the work that you do, uh, do you have any other, do you have any other final thoughts or, or, uh, you know, points that we didn't cover on this subject that come to mind, >>There is something that you touched upon that I'd like to illustrate. Okay. You mentioned that, you know, identity theft and these things, well, the supply chain, this is critical infrastructure. Okay. So I like to think of this as you know, there's, sir, they're serving, you know, they're solving technical challenges and, you know, and the kind of that aspect of software development, but with the supply chain, we rely on these systems. When we wake up each morning, we rely on them to stay in touch with our loved ones. You know, we are our emergency services, our military, our police force, they rely on these supply chains, you know, so I sort of see this as there's a, there's a bigger vision here really in protecting the supply chain is, is for the good of our society, because, you know, a supply chain attack can go very much to the heart of our society. You know, it can, it can be an attack against our democracies. So I, you know, I see this as being something that's, there's a humanistic aspect to this as well. So that really gets me fired up to work on this technology., >>it's really important that we always keep that perspective. This isn't just about folks who will be attending CubeCon and, uh, uh, uh, cloud con uh, this is really something that's relevant to all of us. So, so with that, uh, fantastic conversation, Luke, it's been a pleasure to meet you. Pleasure to talk to you, David. I look forward to, uh, hanging out in person at some point, whatever that gets me. Uh, so with that, uh, we will sign off from this cube conversation in anticipation of cloud con cube con 2021, north America. I'm Dave Nicholson. Thanks for joining us.

hello and welcome to this cube conversation this is part of our continuing coverage of kubecon cloud nativecon north america 2021 i have a very special guest with us uh from a technology company that on any given day at any given moment has any number of 31 million discrete users coming in looking for a specific item or two out of 22 23 24 million who knows how many items that could be shipped from 15 16 17 000 different locations around the globe and we've got one of the key folks responsible for managing what some of us in tech would refer to by the technical term a nightmare uh gary white from wayfair welcome hey thanks for having me yeah so tell us about wayfair what is wayfair we're all going to pretend like none of us have heard of wayfair before despite billions of dollars in advertising what is wayfair what do you get what do you what do you guys do before we get into the technology and how it actually works yeah uh that's a great question wayfair it uh exists to be the destination for all things home helping everybody and create a feeling of being at home uh so that's like our primary goal from the um overall business objective specifically in the technology uh part of the company we strive to make development of tools that make the shopping process easier uh carrying one of the widest like spaces of items means that we have to have incredible resiliency in our data and access to that data and then we try to build world-class development tools to compete with uh talent market um that is some of the biggest firms in the world okay so so just so we're clear because i want to make sure you came to the right to the right place this isn't furniture con this is cloud native con and you're not an you're not an artisan crafter of bespoke end tables right so you you craft a very different thing which is the uh which is the technical infrastructure behind this tell us about your relationship with uh with cloud native technologies in the open source world oh sure absolutely so my experience at wayfair has mostly consisted of um exposing the release engineering process and making the process of developing tools easier i think most companies invest about or a lot of companies invest a significant amount of their engineering talent into being able to create a platform for their developers to work on top of uh that's the team that i'm a part of where we create a platform for our developers and a large part of how we do that is leveraging technology that comes out of the cncf so we'll be talking about uh automation tools um things that you may run in kubernetes to do batch jobs things that you may run in kubernetes to run uh regular microservices and applications and then ways to automate the building of those applications and the packaging of it so that it can ship to production reliably and so you guys you guys aren't just you know when we go back several decades there were customers and there were vendors and those lines are really blurred in the open source community they have been for a long time but i mean you're you're actually working not only to develop solutions for wayfarer but you're working hand in hand with other people to develop solutions that get propagated across industry tell us about some of those projects that that you're involved with with the open source community or at least where wayfarer is absolutely so uh wayfair has made an investment in the open source community specifically notably with the tremor project you can go to tremor.rs and i'm actually speaking about it at cubecon that's where the topic comes from tremor is a early stage and uh event processing system where you can give it a lot of data for it to be able to ingest and then spit out downstream to other systems you may want to send events and notifications out to multiple systems based on what you see you may want to throttle the amount of data that you have coming in and that was a big topic that i also mentioned at the cloud native con uh and at tremorcon where you can deal with this really massive volume that we have to do at the scale that we exist as a as a business and just um filter it so that it doesn't overwhelm everything downstream in observability's sake well you know that tremor must be cool if it has its own con right yeah that's very cool you know you've arrived when you've had a con eventually i'm i'm i'm working toward dave khan we we'd make it dave and gary khan if we need to but oh absolutely so can you can you take those concepts of events and and data flow and and kind of up level that in terms of the kinds of things that are happening between customers and wayfair on a moment-by-moment basis so so give me an example of like you know what what is an event sure yeah so events if you're familiar with the open telemetry or observability framework you might call them signals where you have something happen on your infrastructure that's processed in a way that you would want to record so you might have a log that you need to be able to trace through later in case there's something happens or you just want to be able to comb your logs you may have uh metrics that you're sending in like how many requests you've gotten or how many bytes you've been processing in your service uh you may have baggage that you associate with that data um so yeah all of these different kinds of signals as defined in the open telemetry spec are things that we support in tremor and we supported before the hotel project really made it a form it was something we did out of necessity and similar products that you might find are like log stash and elastic in that whole stack okay so if so if uh if i'm looking for something for my home office uh although you can see i've got tons of garbage already in my home office um what what happens to me as a customer if all of what you just described goes wrong what happens to my experience that's a great question so as we're talking about tremor if something were to go wrong it shouldn't impact the experience of the service itself because tremor is designed to not create any load on your service as you are executing it you have the option to run it as a standalone server where you give it the resources that it needs by itself uh if that turns out to be too much of a burden for the application and you need to do a sidecar kind of model where you actually deploy it alongside your application directly in the same pod or sometimes even in the same container as a different process it's lightweight enough that you can do that which is part of the reason why we like it and why we built it is that we found that many of the other solutions for processing these signals just simply took up too much compute to be competitive with what we were able to create ourselves how and how long have you been with wayfair uh i've been with wayfair for almost three years uh three years in october or it is october so three years hooray hey hey happy happy anniversary yeah so obviously you couldn't have predicted the you know the the massive shift in all of our lives um and maybe you didn't completely fully appreciate just how well prepared wayfare was for this crazy shift in all of our lives when you entered in um i'm not gonna let you pretend uh that uh that you know that you knew and that your your iq is 20 points higher than it actually is because you decided to go to a place that was actually prepared but what what is share with us what that has been like i mean what is it like to be somewhere where the sky appeared to be falling and then all of a sudden the demands went through the roof what was that like that was a extremely chaotic but ultimately uh successful time for the company obviously um it's shown definitely in what you can find um in our stock and how we've been doing with technology that we did very well during the pandemic we were able to use the technology that we already had and be effective in adopting some more of the cncf portfolio and some more of like cloud native practices to make the um to make our infrastructure run better than it ever did at a time where we were in a crunch to be able to do better than we ever um had as a business and i believe that those two things are related the or this is my personal philosophy for sure that i believe that the adoption of these cloud native practices uh especially being pushed from the platform team that i work on were instrumental in being able to create an environment where developers can deliver value more reliably where then the experience of shopping at wayfair becomes dramatically better and can handle the scale that you see when everybody decides to start shopping everybody decides to start furnishing their home office i was going to make a joke that i bet that at least one of those things behind you was from wakefield you could be right although although some of the things over my shoulder are very strange movie prop type items so but uh but you would be you would be guessing correctly i was very very excited to talk to you um from uh from a technology standpoint because again you guys were prepared for this you you can't respond uh in a way quickly enough that doesn't crush you unless you've prepared and you've got a framework that draws upon cloud native technologies just just as you as you outlined um so against that backdrop what are you seeing in uh from a technology standpoint in retail in general are you are you plugged into that much think of think of legacy uh furniture outlets trying to pivot into the world of cloud native native take your take your wayfarer hat off you know your partisan hat in terms of competition off for a moment and and talk to me about you know if you're advising a fill in the blank legacy retail store that's just dying right now that wanted to have an online presence from a technical standpoint how would you advise them what would you steer them in the direction of i would definitely say that um just in time engineering has actually served wayfarer extremely well where we're not over engineering the solutions and using the big fancy tools until we know that we need them so i think that when we see businesses or we see anybody any organization that decides to adopt everything first and then see whether or not it scales up they don't see the results that they wanted because they're not using something that's appropriate for the size of the problem that they're trying to solve so for example if if an experience that i can share from what we went through uh i was part of and i've spoken and have some posts about um like being able to scale up just the automation infrastructure for wayfair where we were using a solution that worked pretty well but we didn't think about what was going to happen when it grew and we didn't react when it actually did grow and so by instead reassessing okay we're a different size company now we have different size needs for automation and different flexibility requirements to be able to use it effectively we need to be able to adopt containers we need to be able to support deployment into kubernetes how can we get there and then continuing to evaluate that even during the process of building and during the process of making that available to the rest of the company i think that if you're starting that process fresh or even if you're in the middle of that process it's important to right size the solution and consider whether or not it it's if your online business isn't mid-tier but it's enterprise then you need to build a system for that if you have an online system that's actually doing not much of your business don't build for the enterprise yet build for the size and then continue to scale it up as you go um another thing that i i just have to plug about the cncf solutions is that they're incredible at being flexible to that scale that if you pick things that go from low to mid tier then you can hand off from mid to high tier and then from high tier into enterprise scale and i think that those things are available in the cncf landscape and it's part of why we're excited to to be part of it ourselves so if you had a magic wand and you could solve one headache that you experience in your daily life from a technology perspective can you can you think of anything that you would uh you would conjure up absolutely uh i i struggle and have struggled pretty much my entire career uh with being able to get like a good picture of the adoption of any given tool within the company and i know that perhaps not every engineer um that works with technology within a big enterprise firm has to think about whether or not their tool is being used a lot um folks may not think about is the person next to me using python or is the next person next to them using java um being able to have that kind of insight into what people use how frequently they're deploying and how much they use it would be an incredible gain for us to be able to make better decisions about the platform of the company yeah yeah and you know you know the uh potentially the irony there is um at the sort of tip of the spear of your business understanding the customer everything about them you possibly can is so important to give them a really really good experience and sometimes enterprises that have that know all sorts of information about me don't know what their developers are doing in a whole list in a holistic fashion uh with a few clicks i can tell you exactly how many orders i've ordered from get from a given online retailer in the last nine years um but uh but i doubt they could tell me a lot about some of their infrastructure so that's that's interesting uh well what else what else can you share with us about wayfair are there any anything that's not super proprietary and secret that you could share that's an interesting data point we were joking beforehand about yeah what is it is it 8 billion in your sales is it red staplers or uh any kind of factoids that people would be surprised about yeah i i think folks um something that's definitely not proprietary because it's literally on github.com uh we just recently started putting a lot more elbow grease into our open source repositories it's becoming hacktoberfest now and we're very excited to be able to have these kind of more polished products things that we expect people to be able to contribute to where not even a year ago it wasn't uncommon to have teams within the company that would open source their project and then they would completely lose track of it and we had like some um we had to create new organizations to actually maintain them over time so i i feel like a really exciting thing that we're doing now is contributing to open source and earnest and actually getting developers time scheduled to be able to dedicate to that effort um i think a lot of the biggest companies that are the most successful uh make time for their developers to be able to contribute back as well as being able to contribute just to the proprietary code that every company has to maintain absolutely because human as human beings we don't want to be toiling in obscurity right and uh you know at what becomes a soul-killing exercise when you can actually get out there and have that sense of community uh which is you know it's central to uh to open source it's a testament to wayfair that they know that it's in their best interest as a as an organization to nurture that kind of talent uh uh within so uh on that on that very positive note uh i'd like to thank you so much for your time gary um and i appreciate the uh the plug for uh for shoes uh over over over your shoulder uh and uh just just wanna say again thanks a lot uh best of luck with your uh with your talk for q con and with that i will sign off thanks for joining this cube conversation with gary white of wayfair in our continuing coverage of kubecon cloud native con north america 2021 i'm dave nicholson thanks for tuning in you

>>Hello and welcome back to the cubes coverage of dr khan 2021. I'm john for your host of the cube. Great guests here cube alumni Stephen Chin, vice president of developer relations for jay frog Stephen, great to see you again this remote this time this last time was in person. Our last physical event. We had you in the queue but great to see you. Thanks for coming in remotely. >>No, no, I'm very glad to be here. And also it was, it was awesome to be in person at our s a conference when we last talked and the last year has been super exciting with a whole bunch of crazy things like the I. P. O. And doing virtual events. So we've, we're transitioning to the new normal. We're looking forward to things getting to be hybrid. >>Great success with jay frog. We've been documenting the history of this company, very developer focused the successful I. P. O. And just the continuation that you guys have transitioned beautifully to virtual because you know, developer company, it runs virtual, but also you guys have been all about simplicity for developers and and we've been talking for many, many years with you guys on this. This is the theme that dr khan again, this is a developer conference, not so much an operator conference, but more of a deva deV developer focused. You guys have been there from the beginning, um nationally reported on it. But talk about jay Frog and the Doctor partnership and why is this event so important for you? >>Yeah. So I think um like like you said, jay Frog has and always is a developer focused company. So we we build tools and things which which focus on developer use cases, how you get your code to production and streamlining the entire devoPS pipeline. And one of the things which which we believe very strongly in and I think we're very aligned with with doctor on this is having secure clean upstream dependencies for your Docker images for other package and language dependencies and um you know, with the announcement of dr khan and dr Hubbs model changing, we wanted to make sure that we have the best integration with doctor and also the best support for our customers on with Docker hub. So one of the things we did strategically is um, we um combined our platforms so um you can get the best in class developer tools for managing images from Docker. Um everyone uses their um desktop tools for for building and managing your containers and then you can push them right to the best container registry for managing Docker Images, which is the jay frog platform. And just like Docker has free tools available for developers to use. We have a free tier which integrates nicely what their offerings and one of the things which we collaborate with them on is for anybody using our free tier in the cloud. Um there's there's no limits on the Docker images. You can pull no rate limiting, no throttling. So it just makes a clean seamless developer experience to to manage your cloud native projects and applications. >>What's the role of the container registry in cloud NATO? You brought that up? But can you just expand on that point? >>Yeah. So I think when you when you're doing deployments to production, you want to make sure both that you have the best security so that you're making sure that you're scanning and checking for vulnerabilities in your application and also that you have a complete um traceability. Basically you need a database in a log of everything you're pushing out to production. So what container registries allow you to do is um they keep all of the um releases all of the Docker images which are pushing out. You can go back and roll back to a previous version. You can see exactly what's included in those Docker images. And we jay frog, we have a product called X ray which does deep scanning of container images. So it'll go into the Docker Image, it'll go into any packages installed, it'll go into application libraries and it does kind of this onion peel apart of your entire document image to figure out exactly what you're using. Are there any vulnerabilities? And the funny thing about about Docker Images is um because of the number of libraries and packages and installed things which you haven't given Docker Image. If you just take your released Docker Image and let it sit on the shelf for a month, you have thousands of vulnerabilities, just just buy it um, by accruing from different reported zero day vulnerabilities over time. So it's extremely important that you, you know what those are, you can evaluate the risk to your organization and then mitigated as quickly as possible. If there is anything which could impact your customers, >>you bring up a great point right there and that is ultimately a developer thing that's been, that's generational, you know what generation you come from and that's always the problem getting the patches in the old days, getting a new code updated now when you have cloud native, that's more important than ever. And I also want to get your thoughts on this because you guys have been early on shift left two years ago, shift left was not it was not a new thing for you guys ever. So you got shift left building security at the point of coding, but you're bringing up a whole another thing which is okay automation. How do you make it? So the developments nothing stop what they're doing and then get back and say, okay, what's out there and my containers. So so how do you simplify that role? Because that's where the partnership, I think really people are looking to you guys and Dakar on is how do you make my life easier? Bottom line, what's it, what's it, what's it about? >>Yeah. So I I think when you when you're looking at trying to manage um large applications which are deployed to big kubernetes clusters and and how you have kind of this, this um all this infrastructure behind it. One of the one of the challenges is how do you know what you have that in production? Um So what, how do you know exactly what's released and what dependencies are out there and how easily can you trace those back? Um And one of the things which we're gonna be talking about at um swamp up next week is managing the overall devops lifecycle from code all the way through to production. Um And we we have a great platform for doing package management for doing vulnerability scanning, for doing um ci cd but you you need a bunch of other tools too. So you need um integrations like docker so you can get trusted packages into your system. You need integrations with observe ability tools like data, dog, elastic and you need it some tools for doing incident management like Patriot duty. And what we've, what we've built out um is we built out an ecosystem of partner integrations which with the J frog platform at the center lets you manage your entire and and life cycle of um devops infrastructure. And this this addresses security. It addresses the need to do quick patches and fixes and production and it kind of stitches together all the tools which all of the successful companies are using to manage their fast moving continuous release cycle, um and puts all that information together with seamless integration with even developer tools which um which folks are using on a day to day basis, like slack jeer A and M. S. Teams. >>So the bottom line then for the developer is you take the best of breed stuff and put it, make it all work together easily. That right? >>Yeah. I mean it's like it's seamless from you. You've got an incidents, you click a button, it sticks Ajira ticket in for you to resolve. Um you can tie that with the code, commits what you're doing and then directly to the security vulnerability which is reported by X ray. So it stitches all these different tools and technologies together for a for a seamless developer experience. And I think the great relationship we have with Docker um offers developers again, this this best in class container management um and trusted images combined with the world's best container registry. >>Awesome. Well let's get into that container issue products. I think that's the fascinating and super important thing that you guys solve a big problem for. So I gotta ask you, what are the security risks of using unverified and outdated Docker containers? Could you share your thoughts on what people should pay attention to because if they got unverified and outdated Docker containers, you mentioned vulnerabilities. What are those specific risks to them? >>Yeah, so I there's there's a lot of um different instances where you can see in the news or even some of the new government mandates coming out that um if you're not taking the right measures to secure your production applications and to patch critical vulnerabilities and libraries you're using, um you end up with um supply chain vulnerability risks like what happened to solar winds and what's been fueling the recent government mandates. So I think there's a there's a whole class of of different vulnerabilities which um bad actors can exploit. It can actually go quite deep with um folks um exploiting application software. Neither your your company or in other people's systems with with the move to cloud native, we also have heavily interconnected systems with a lot of different attack points from the container to the application level to the operating system level. So there's multiple different attack vectors for people to get into your software. And the best defense is an organization against security. Vulnerabilities is to know about them quickly and to mitigate them and fix them in production as quickly as possible. And this requires having a fast continuous deployment strategy for how you can update your code quickly, very quick identification of vulnerabilities with tools like X ray and other security scanning tools, um and just just good um integration with tools developers are using because at the end of the day it's the developers who both are picking the libraries and dependencies which are gonna be pushed into production and also they're the ones who have to react and and fix it when there's a uh production incident, >>you know, machine learning and automation. And it's always, I love that tech because it's always kind of cool because it's it's devops in action, but you know, it's it's not like a silver bullet, your machine, your machine learning is only as good as your your data and the code is written on staying with automation. You're not automating the right things or or wrong things. It's all it's all subjective based on what you're doing and you know Beauty's in the eye of the beholder when you do things like that. So I wanna hear your thoughts on on automation because that's really been a big part of the story here, both on simplicity and making the load lighter for developers. So when you have to go out and look at modifying code updates and looking at say um unverified containers or one that gets a little bit of a hair on it with with with more updates that are needed as we say, what do you what's the role of automation? How do you guys view that and how do you talk to the developers out there when posturing for a strategy on and a playbook for automation? >>Yeah, I think you're you're touching on one of the most critical parts of of any good devops um platform is from end to end. Everything should be automated with the right quality gates inserted at different points so that if there's a um test failure, if you have a build failure, if you have a security vulnerability, the the automatic um points in there will be triggered so that your release process will be stopped um that you have automated rollbacks in production um so that you can make sure that their issues which affect your customers, you can quickly roll back and once you get into production um having the right tools for observe ability so that you can actually sift through what is a essentially a big data problem. So with large systems you get so much data coming back from your application, from the production systems, from all these different sources that even an easy way to sift through and identify what are the messages coming back telling you that there's a problem that there's a real issue that you need to address versus what's just background noise about different different processes or different application alerts, which really don't affect the security of the functionality of your applications. So I think this this end to end automation gives you the visibility and the single pane of glass to to know how to manage and diagnose your devops infrastructure. >>You know, steve you bring up a great point. I love this conversation because it always highlights to me why I love uh Coop Con and Cloud Native con part of the C N C F and dr khan, because to me it's like a microcosm of two worlds that are living together. Right? You got I think Coop khan has proven its more operated but not like operator operator, developer operators. And you got dr khan almost pure software development, but now becoming operators. So you've got that almost those two worlds are fusing together where they are running together. You have operating concerns like well the Parachute open, will it work? And how do I roll back these roll back? These are like operating questions that now developers got to think about. So I think we're seeing this kind of confluence of true devops next level where you can't you can be just a developer and have a little bit of opposite you and not be a problem. Right? Or or get down under the under the hood and be an operator whenever you want. So they're seeing a flex. What's your thoughts on this is just more about my observation kind of real time here? >>Yeah, so um I think it's an interesting, obviously observation on the industry and I think you know, I've been doing DEVOPS for for a long time now and um I started as a developer who needed to push to production, needed to have the ability to to manage releases and packages and be able to automate everything. Um and this naturally leads you on a path of doing more operations, being able to manage your production, being able to have fewer incidents and issues. Um I think DEVOPS has evolved to become a very complicated um set of tools and problems which it solves and even kubernetes as an example. Um It's not easy to set up like setting up a kubernetes cluster and managing, it is a full time job now that said, I think what you're seeing now is more and more companies are shifting back to developers as a focus because teams and developers are the kingmakers ends with the rise of cloud computing, you don't need a full operations team, you don't need a huge infrastructure stack, you can you can easily get set up in the cloud on on amazon google or as your and start deploying today to production from from a small team straight from code to production. And I think as we evolve and as we get better tools, simpler ways of managing your deployments of managing your packages, this makes it possible for um development teams to do that entire site lifecycle from code through to production with good quality checks with um good security and also with the ability to manage simple production incidents all by themselves. So I think that's that's coming where devoPS is shifting back to development teams. >>It's great to have your leadership and your experience. All right there. That's a great call out, great observation, nice gym there. I think that's right on. I think to get your thoughts if you don't mind going next level because you're, you're nailing what I see is the successful companies having these teams that could be and and workflows and have a mix of a team. I was talking about Dana Lawson who was the VP of engineering get up and she and I were riffing on this idea that you don't have to have a monolithic team because you've got you no longer have a monolithic environment. So you have this microservices and now you can have these, I'm gonna call micro teams, but you're starting to see an SRE on the team, that's the developer. Right? So this idea of having an SRE department maybe for big companies, that could be cool if you're hyper scalar, but these development teams are having certain formations. What's your observation to your customer base in terms of how your customers are organizing? Because I think you nailed the success form of how teams are executing because it's so much more agile, you get the reliability, you need to have security baked in, you want end to end visibility because you got services starting and stopping. How are teams? How are you seeing developers? What's the state of the art in your mind for formation? >>Yeah, so I think um we we work with a lot of the biggest companies who were really at the bleeding edge of innovation and devoPS and continuous delivery. And when you look at those teams, they have, they have very, very small teams, um supporting thousands of developers teams um building and deploying applications. So um when you think of of SRE and deVOPS focus there is actually a very small number of those folks who typically support humongous organizations and I think what we're hearing from them is their increasingly getting requirements from the teams who want to be self service, right? They want to be able to take their applications, have simple platforms to deploy it themselves to manage things. Um They don't they don't want to go through heavy way processes, they wanted to be automated and lightweight and I think this is this is putting pressure on deVOPS teams to to evolve and to adopt more platforms and services which allow developers to to do things themselves. And I think over time um this doesn't this doesn't get rid of the need for for devops and for SRE roles and organizations but it it changes because now they become the enablers of success and good development teams. It's it's kind of like um like how I. T. Organizations they support you with automated rollouts with all these tools rather than in person as much as they can do with automation. Um That helps the entire organization. I think devops is becoming the same thing where they're now simplifying and automating how developers can be self service and organizations. >>And I think it's a great evolution to because that makes total sense because it is kind of like what the I. T. Used to do in the old days but its the scale is different, the services are different, the deVOPS tools are different and so they really are enabling not just the cost center there really driving value. Um and this brings up the whole next threat. I'd love to get your thoughts because you guys are, have been doing this for developers for a while. Tools versus platform because you know, this whole platform where we're a platform were control plane, there's still a need for tooling for developers. How do we thread the needle between? What's, what's good for a tool? What's good for a platform? >>Yeah, So I I think that um, you know, there's always a lot of focus and it's, it's easier if you can take an end to end platform, which solves a bunch of different use cases together. But um, I I think a lot of folks, um, when you're looking at what you need and how you want to apply, um, devops practices to your organization, you ideally you want to be able to use best in breed tools to be able to solve exactly what your use cases. And this is one of the reasons why as a company with jay frog, we we try to be as open as possible to integrations with the entire vendor ecosystem. So um, it doesn't matter what ci cd tool you're using, you could be using Jenkins circle, ci spinnaker checked on, it doesn't matter what observe ability platform you're using in production, it doesn't matter what um tools you're using for collaboration. We, we support that whole ecosystem and we make it possible for you to select the the best of breed tools and technologies that you need to be successful as an organization. And I think the risk is if, if you, if you kind of accept vendor lock in on a single platform or or a single cloud platform even um then you're, you're not getting the best in breed tools and technologies which you need to stay ahead of the curve and devops is a very, very fast moving um, um, discipline along with all the cloud native technologies which you use for application development and for production. So if you're, if you're not staying at the bleeding edge and kind of pushing things forward, then you're then you're behind and if you're behind, you're not be able to keep up with the releases, the deployments, you need to be secure. So I think what you see is the leading organizations are pushing the envelope on on security, on deployment and they're they're using the best tools in the industry to make that happen. >>Stephen great to have you on the cube. I want to just get your thoughts on jay frog and the doctor partnership to wrap this up. Could you take them in to explain what's the most important thing that developers should pay attention to when it comes to security for Docker images? >>Yeah. So I think when you're when you're developer and you're looking at your your security strategy, um you want tools that help you that come to you and that help you. So you want things which are going to give you alerts in your I. D. With things which are going to trigger your in your Ci cd and your build process. And we should make it easy for you to identify mitigate and release um things which will help you do that. So we we provide a lot of those tools with jay frog and our doctor partnership. And I think if you if you look at our push towards helping developers to become more productive, build better applications and more secure applications, this is something the entire industry needs for us to address. What's increasingly a risk to software development, which is a higher profile vulnerabilities, which are affecting the entire industry. >>Great stuff. Big fan of jay frog watching you guys be so successful, you know, making things easy for developers is uh, and simpler and reducing the steps it takes to do things as a, I say, is the classic magic formula for any company, Make it easier, reduce the steps it takes to do something and make it simple. Um, good success formula. Great stuff. Great to have you on um for a minute or two, take a minute to plug what's going on in jay frog and share what's the latest increase with the company, what you guys are doing? Obviously public company. Great place to work, getting awards for that. Give the update on jay frog, put a plug in. >>Yeah. And also dr Frog, I've been having a lot of fun working at J frog, it's very, very fast growing. We have a lot of awesome announcements at swamp up. Um like the partnerships were doing um secure release bundles for deployments and just just a range of advances. I think the number of new features and innovation we put into the product in the past six months since I. P. O. Is astounding. So we're really trying to push the edge on devops um and we're also gonna be announcing and talking about stuff that dr khan as well and continue to invest in the cloud native and the devops ecosystem with our support of the continuous delivery foundation and the C. N C F, which I'm also heavily involved in. So it's it's exciting time to be in the devoPS industry and I think you can see that we're really helping software developers to improve their art to become better, better at release. Again, managing production applications >>and the ecosystem is just flourishing. It's only the beginning and again Making bring the craft back in Agile, which is a super big theme this year. Stephen. Great, great to see you. Thanks for dropping those gems and insights here on the Cube here at Dr. 2021 virtual. Thanks for coming on. >>Yeah. Thank you john. >>Okay. Dr. 2020 coverage virtual. I'm John for your host of the Cube. Thanks for watching. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah.

>>from around the globe. It's the cube with coverage of Kublai >>Khan and Cloud Native Con, Europe 2021 >>virtual brought to you by red hat. The cloud Native >>computing foundation >>and ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes coverage everyone of Coop Con 2021 Cloud Native Con 21 virtual europe. I'm john for your host of the cube. We've got two great guests here, James Labaki, senior Director of Product management, Red Hat and Richer Puree. IBM fellow and chief scientist at IBM Gentlemen, thanks for coming on the cube, appreciate it. >>Thank you for having us. >>So, um, got an IBM fellow and Chief scientist, Senior Director Product management. You guys have the keys to the kingdom on cloud Native. All right, it's gonna be fun. So let's just jump into it. So I want to ask you before we get into some of the questions around the projects, what you guys take of cube con this year, in terms of the vibe, I know it's virtual in europe north America, we looked like we might be in person but this year with the pandemic cloud native just seems to have a spring to its step, it's got more traction. I've seen the cloud native piece even more than kubernetes in a way. So scott cooper diseases continues to have traction, but it's always about kubernetes now. It's more cloud native. I what do you guys think about that? >>Yeah, I'm sure you have thoughts and I could add on >>Yes, I I think well I would really think of it as almost sequential in some ways. Community is too cold now there's a layer which comes above it which is where all our, you know, clients and enterprises realize the value, which is when the applications really move. It's about the applications and what they can deliver to their end customers. And the game now is really about moving those applications and making them cloud native. That's when the value of that software infrastructure will get realized and that's why you are seeing that vibe in the, in the clients and enterprises and at two corners. Well, >>yeah, I mean, I think it's exciting. I've been covering this community since the beginning as you guys know the cube. This is the enablement moment where the fruit is coming off the tree is starting to see that first wave of you mentioned that enablement, it's happening and you can see it in the project. So I want to get into the news here, the conveyor community. What is this about? Can you take a minute to explain what is the conveyor community? >>Yeah, yeah. I think uh, you know, uh, what, what we discovered is we were starting to work with a lot of end users and practitioners. Is that what we're finding is that they kind of get tired of hearing about digital transformation and from multiple vendors and and from sales folks and these sorts of things. And when you speak to the practitioners, they just want to know what are the practical implications of moving towards a more collaborative architecture. And so, um, you know, when you start talking to them at levels beyond, uh, just generic kind of, you know, I would say marketing speak and even the business cases, the developers and sys admins need to know what it is they need to do to their application architecture is the ways they're working for to successfully modernize their applications. And so the idea behind the conveyor community was really kind of two fold. One was to help with knowledge sharing. So we started running meetups where people can come and share their knowledge of what they've done around specific topics like strangling monoliths or carving offside containers or things that sidecar containers are things that they've done successfully uh to help uh kind of move things forward. So it's really about knowledge sharing. And then the second piece we discovered was that there's really no place where you can find open source tools to help you re host re platform and re factor your applications to kubernetes. And so that's really where we're trying to fill that void is provide open source options in that space and kind of inviting everybody else to collaborate with us on that. >>Can you give an example of something uh some use cases of people doing this, why the need the drivers? It makes sense. Right. As a growing, you've got, you have to move applications. People want to have um applications moved to communities. I get that. But what are some of the use cases that were forcing this? >>Yeah, absolutely, for sure. I don't know if you have any you want to touch on um specifically I could add on as well. >>Yeah, I think some of the key use cases, I would really say it will be. So let let me just, I think James just talked about re host, re hosting, re platform ng and re factoring, I'm gonna put some numbers on it and then they talk about the use case a little bit as well. I would really say 30 virtual machines movement. That's it. That's the first one to happen. Easy, easier one, relatively speaking. But that's the first one to happen. The re platform in one where you are now really sort of changing the stack as well but not changing the application in any major way yet. And the hardest one happened around re factoring, which is, you are, you know, this is when we start talking about cloud native, you take a monolithic application which you know legacy applications which have been running for a long time and try to re factor them so that you can build microservices out of them. The very first, I would say set of clients that we are seeing at the leading edge around this will be around banking and insurance. Legacy applications, banking is obviously finances a large industry and that's the first movement you start seeing which is where the complexity of the application in terms of some of the legacy code that you are seeing more onto the, into the cloud. That for a cloud native implementation as well as their as well as a diversity of scenarios from a re hosting and re platform ng point of view. And we'll talk about some of the tools that we are putting in the community uh to help the users and uh and the developer community in many of these enterprises uh move into a cloud native implementation lot of their applications. And also from the point of view of helping them in terms of practice, is what I describe as best practices. It is not just about tools, it's about the community coming together. How do I do this? How do I do that? Actually, there are best practices that we as a community have gathered. It's about that sharing as well, James. >>Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. Right. So you re hosting like for example, you might have uh an application that was delivered, you buy an SV that is not available containerized yet. You need to bring that over as a VM. So you can bring that into Q Bert, you know, and actually bring that and just re hosted. You can, you might have some things that you've already containerized but they're sitting on a container orchestration layer that is no longer growing, right? So the innovation has kind of left that platform and kind of kubernetes has become kind of that standard one, the container orchestration layer, if you want become the de facto standard. And so you want to re platform that that takes massaging and transforming metadata to do that to create the right objects and so on and so forth. So there's a bunch of different use cases around that that kind of fall into that re host tree platform all the way up to re factoring >>So just explain for the audience and I know I love I love the three things re hosting re platform in and re factoring what's the difference between re platform NG and re factoring specifically, what's the nuance there? >>Yeah, yeah, so so a lot of times I think people have a lot of people, you know, I think obviously amazon kind of popularized the six hours framework years ago, you know, with, with, with, with that. And so if you look at what they kind of what they popularize it was replied corn is really kind of like a lift tinker and shift. So maybe it's, I, I'm not just taking my VM and putting it on new infrastructure, I'm gonna take my VM, maybe put on new infrastructure, but I'm gonna switch my observer until like a lighter weight observer or something like that at the same time. So that would fall into like a re platform or in the case, you know, one of the things we're seeing pretty heavily right now is the move from cloud foundry to kubernetes for example, where people are looking to take their application and actually transform it and run it on kubernetes, which requires you to really kind of re platform as well. And re factoring >>is what specific I get the >>report re factoring is, I think just following on to what James said re factoring is really about um the complexity of the application, which was mainly a monolithic large application, many of these legacy applications which have so many times, actually hundreds of millions of dollars of assets for these uh these enterprises, it's about taking the code and re factoring it in terms of dividing it into uh huh different pieces of court which can themselves be spun as microservices. So then it becomes true, it takes starting advantage of agility or development in a cloud native environment as well. It's not just about either lift and shift of the VM or or lift tinker and shift from a, from a staff point of view. It's really about not taking applications and dividing them so that we can spin microservices and it has the identity of the development of a cloud. >>I totally got a great clarification, really want to get that out there because re platform ng is really a good thing to go to the cloud. Hey, I got reticent open source, I'll use that, I can do this over here and then if we use that vendor over there, use open source over there. Really good way to look at it. I like the factory, it's like a complete re architecture or re factoring if you will. So thank you for the clarification. Great, great topic. Uh, this is what practitioners think about. So I gotta ask the next question, what projects are involved in in the community that you guys are working? It seems like a really valuable service uh and group. Um can you give an overview and what's going on in the community specifically? >>Yeah, so there's really right now, there's kind of five projects that are in the community and they're all in different, I would say different stages of maturity as well. So, um there's uh when you look at re hosting, there's two kind of primary projects focused on that. One is called forklift, which is about migrating your virtual machines into cuba. So covert is a way that you can run virtual machines orchestrated by kubernetes. We're seeing kind of a growth in demand there where people want to have a common orchestration for both their VMS and containers running on bare metal. And so forklift helps you actually mass migrate VMS into that environment. Um The second one on the re hosting side is called Crane. So Crane is really a tool that helps you migrate applications between kubernetes clusters. So you imagine you have all your you know, you might have persistent data and one kubernetes cluster and you want to migrate a name space from one cluster to another. Um That's where Crane comes in and actually helps you migrate between those um on the re platforms that we have moved to cube, which actually came from the IBM research team. So they actually open source that uh you sure you want to speak about uh moved to >>cube. Yeah, so so moved to cuba is really as we discuss the re platform scenario already, it is about, you know, if you are in a docker environment or hungry environment uh and you know, kubernetes has become a de facto standard now you are containerized already, but you really are actually moving into the communities based environment as the name implies, It's about moved to cuba back to me and this is one of the things we were looking at and as we were looking, talking to a lot of, a lot of users, it became evident to us that they are adapting now the de facto standard. Uh and it's a tool that helps you enable your applications in that new environment and and move to the new stuff. >>Yeah. And then the the the only other to our tackle which is uh probably like the one of the newest projects which is focused on kind of assessment and analysis of applications for container reservation. So actually looking at and understanding what the suitability is of an application for being containerized and start to be like being re factored into containers. Um and that's that's uh, you know, we have kind of engineers across both uh Red hat IBM research as well as uh some folks externally that are starting to become interested in that project as well. Um and the last, the last project is called Polaris, which is a tool to help you measure your software delivery performance. So this might seem a little odd to have in the community. But when you think about re hosting re platform and re factoring, the idea is that you want to measure your software delivery performance on top of kubernetes and that's what this does. It kind of measures the door metrics. If you're familiar with devops realization metrics. Um so things like, you know, uh you know, your change failure rate and other things on top of their to see are you actually improving as you're making these changes? >>Great. Let me ask the question for the folks watching or anyone interested, how do they get involved? Who can contribute, explain how people get involved? Is our site, is there up location slack channel? What's out there? >>Yeah, yeah, all of the above. So we have a, we have, we have a slack channel, we're on slack dot kubernetes dot io on town conveyor, but if you go to www dot conveyor dot io conveyor with a K. Uh, not like the cube with a C. Uh, but like cube with a K. Uh, they can go to a conveyor to Ohio and um, there they can find everything they need. So, um, we have a, you know, a governance model that's getting put in place, contributor ladder, all the things you'd expect. We're kind of talking into the C N C F around the gap delivery groups to kind of understand if we can um, how we can align ourselves so that in the future of these projects take off, they can become kind of sandbox projects. Um and uh yeah, we would welcome any and all kind of contribution and collaboration >>for sure. I don't know if you have >>anything to add on that, I >>think you covered it at the point has already um, just to put a plug in for uh we have already been having meetups, so on the best practices you will find the community, um, not just on convert or die. Oh, but as you start joining the community and those of meet ups and the help you can get whether on the slack channel, very helpful on the day to day problems that you are encountering as you are taking your applications to a cloud native environment. >>So, and I can see this being a big interest enterprises as they have a mix and match environment and with container as you can bring and integrate old legacy. And that's the beautiful thing about hybrid cloud that I find fascinating right now is that with all the goodness of stade Coubertin and cloud native, if you've got a legacy environments, great fit now. So you don't have to kill the old to bring in the news. So this is gonna be everything a real popular project for, you know, the class, what I call the classic enterprise, So what you guys both have your companies participated in. So with that is that the goal is that the gulf of this community is to reach out to the classic enterprise or open source because certainly and users are coming in like, like, like you read about, I mean they're coming in fast into the community. >>What's the goal for the community really is to provide assistant and help and guidance to the users from a community point of view. It's not just from us whether it is red hat or are ideal research, but it's really enterprises start participating and we're already seeing that interest from the enterprises because there was a big gap in this area, a lot of vendor. Exactly when you start on this journey, there will be 100 people who will be telling you all you have to do is this Yeah, that's easy. All you have to do. I know there is a red flag goes up, >>it's easy just go cloud native all the way everything is a service. It's just so easy. Just you know, just now I was going to brian gracefully, you get right on that. I want to just quickly town tangent here, brian grazer whose product strategist at red hat, you're gonna like this because he's like, look at the cloud native pieces expanding because um, the enterprises now are, are in there and they're doing good work before you saw projects like envoy come from the hyper scales like lift and you know, the big companies who are building their own stuff, so you start to see that transition, it's no longer the debate on open source and kubernetes and cloud native. It's the discussion is integration legacy. So this is the big discussion this week. Do you guys agree with that? And what would, what would be your reaction? >>Yeah, no, I, I agree with you. Right. I mean, I think, you know, I think that the stat you always here is that the 1st 20 of kind of cloud happened and now there's all the rest of it. Right? And, and modernization is going to be the big piece right? You have to be able to modernize those applications and those workloads and you know, they're, I think they're gonna fall in three key buckets, right? Re host free platform re factor and dependent on your business justification and you know, your needs, you're going to choose one of those paths and we just want to be able to provide open tools and a community based approach to those folks too to help that certainly will have and just, you know, just like it always does, you know, upstream first and then we'll have enterprise versions of these migration tool kits based on these projects, but you know, we really do want to kind of build them, you know, and make sure we have the best solution to the problem, which we believe community is the way to do that. >>And I think just to add to what James said, typically we are talking about enterprises, these enterprises will have thousands of applications, so we're not talking about 10 40 number. We're talking thousands or 20% is not a small number is still 233 400. But man, the work is remaining and that's why they are getting excited about cloud negative now, okay, now we have seen the benefit but this little bit here, but now, let's get, you know serious about about that transformation and this is about helping them in a cloud native uh in an open source way, which is what red hat. XL Sad. Let's bring the community together. >>I'm actually doing a story on that. You brought that up with thousands of applications because I think it's, it's under underestimate, I think it's going to be 1000s and thousands more because businesses now, software driven everywhere and observe ability has pointed this out. And I was talking to the founder of uh Ravana project and it's like, how many thousands of dashboards you're gonna need? Roads are So so this is again, this is the problems and the opportunities are coming together, the abstraction will get you to move up the stack in terms of automation. So it's kind of fascinating when you start thinking about the impact as this goes the next level. And so I have to ask your roaches since you're an IBM fellow and chief scientist, which by the way, is a huge distinction. Congratulations. Being an IBM fellow is is a big deal. Uh IBM takes that very seriously. Only a few of them. You've seen many waves and cycles of innovation. How would you categorize this one now? Because maybe I'm getting old and and loving this right now. But this seems like everything kind of coming together in one flash 10.1 major inflection point. All the other waves combined seemed to be like in this one movement very fast. What's your what's your take on this wave that we're in? >>Yes, I would really say there is a lot of technology has been developed but that technology needs to have its value unleashed and that's exactly where the intersection of those applications and that technology occurs. Um I'm gonna put in yet another. You talked about everything becoming software. This was Anderson I think uh Jack Lee said the software is eating the world another you know, another wave that has started as a i eating software as well. And I do believe these two will go inside uh to uh like let me just give you a brief example re factoring how you take your application and smart ways of using ai to be able to recommend the right microservices for you is another one that we've been working towards and some of those capabilities will actually come in this community as well. So when we talk about innovations in this area, We are we are bringing together the best of IBM research as well. As we are hoping the community actually uh joints as well and enterprises are already starting to join to bring together the latest of the innovations bringing their applications and the best practices together to unleash that value of the technology in moving the rest of that 80%. And to be able to seamlessly bridge from my legacy environment to the cloud native environment. >>Yeah. And hybrid cloud is gonna be multi cloud really is the backbone and operating system of business and life society. So as these apps start to come on a P i is an integration, all of these things are coming together. So um yeah, this conveyor project and conveyor community looks like a really strong approach. Congratulations. Good >>job bob. >>Yeah, great stuff. Kubernetes, enabling companies is enabling all kinds of value here in the cube. We're bringing it to you with two experts. Uh, James Richard, thanks for coming on the Cuban sharing. Thank you. >>Thank you. >>Okay, cube con and cloud native coverage. I'm john furry with the cube. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

>>from around the >>globe it's the cube with >>coverage of Kublai >>Khan and Cloud Native Con Europe 2020 >>one virtual >>brought to you by red hat. The cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of Kublai khan 21 cloud native gone 21 virtual. I'm john for your host of the cube. We're here with a great segment of an entrepreneur also the creator and maintainer of fluent bit Eduardo Silva who's now the founder of Palihapitiya was a startup. Going to commercialize and have an enterprise grade fluent D influence bit Eduardo. Great to have you on. Thanks for coming on the cube >>during the place for having me here. So I'm pretty happy to share the news about the crew and whenever you want, >>exciting trends, exciting trends happening with C N C f koo Kahne cloud native cloud native a lot of data, a lot of management, a lot of logging, a lot of observe ability, a lot of end user um contributions and enterprise adoption. So let's get into it first by give us a quick update on fluent D anything upcoming to highlight. >>Yeah, well fluent is actually turning two years old right now. So it's the more metric project that we have a lot of management and processing in the market. And we're really happy to see that the sides are project that was started 10 years ago, its adoption. You can see continues growing ecosystem from a planning perspective and companies adopting the technology that that is really great. So it's very overwhelming and actually really happy to take this project and continue working with companies, individuals and and right now what is the position where we are now with through And these are part of the Roma is like one of the things that people is facing not because of the tool because people have every time there has more data, more Metro services the system are scaling up is like about performance, right? And performance is critical if you're slowing down data processing actually you're not getting the data at the right time where you need it right. Nobody's people needs real time query is real time analysis. So from a security perspective we're going to focus a lot on everything that is about performance I would say for this year and maybe the other one, I would say that we won't see many new futures around fluently itself as as a project so we'll be mostly about back texting and performance improvements. >>Yeah, I definitely want to dig in with you on the data and logging challenges around kubernetes especially with and to end workflows and there's the different environments that sits in the middle of. But first before we get there, just take a minute to explain for the folks um not that savvy with fluent bit. What is fluent bit real quick, explain what it is. >>Okay, so I will start with a quick story about this, so when we started flowing the, we envision that at some point I'm talking about six years ago, right, all this IOT train or embedded or h will be available and for that you we got back to heavy right? If you have a constraint environment or you want to process data in a more faster way without all the capabilities at that time we say that he might not be suitable for that. So the thing is okay and it was not longer like a single software piece right? We want to say through in this an ecosystem, right? And as part of the ecosystem we have sck where people can connect applications fluid the but also we say we need like a flu Indie but that could be lightweight and faster. Burundi is reading ruby right? And the critical part in C. But since it's written ruby of course there's some process calls on how do you process the data and how much you can scale? Right. So we said if you're going to dig into embedded or small constrained environment, let's write a similar solution. But in C language so we can optimize a memory, can optimize scenario and all this kind of um needs will be will will be effective, right? And we started to spread called fluent bed and through a bit it's like a nowadays like a lightweight version of Wendy, it has started for the Marilyn knows, but after a few years people from the cloud space, I'm talking about containers, kubernetes, they started to ask for more futures for flowing it because they wanted they have influence, but also they wanted to have flowing better than because of it was lively and nowadays we can see that what fluent established the market and true indeed, we're getting around $2 million dollars every single day. So nowadays the attraction of the break is incredible. And it's mostly used to um want to collect logs from the files from system be and for most of coordinated environment disabled, process all this information on a pen, meta data and solve all the problem of how do I collect my data? How do I make sure that the data has the right context meta data and I'm able to deliver this data. So a central place like a job provider or any kind of storage. >>That's great. And I love the fact that's written C, which kind of gives the, I'll say it more performance on the code. Less overhead, get deeper closer um and people No, no, see it's high performance, quick, quick stats. So how old is the project through a bit, What version are you on? >>Uh, a little bit. It's, I'm not sure it is turning six or seven this year, 96. It's been around >>for a while. >>Yeah, yeah. We just released this this week, one at 73 right. We have done more than 100 releases actually really settled two and it's pretty past sometimes we have releases every 23 weeks. So the operation, the club medical system is quite fast. People once and more future more fixes and they don't want to wait for a couple of months for the next release. They wanted to have the continue image right away to test it out and actually sends away as a project. We worked with most of providers like AWS Microsoft actor google cloud platform, the demon for this fixes and improvements are in a weekly basis. >>You guys got a lot of props, I was checking around on the internet, you guys are getting strong um, reviews on logging for kubernetes with the couple releases ago, you had higher performance improvements for google AWS logged in postgres equal and other environments. Um but the question that I'm getting and I'm hearing from folks is, you know, I have end to end workflows and they've been steady. They've been strong. But as more data comes in and more services are connecting to it from network protocols, two Other cloud services, the complexity of what was once a straight straightforward workflow and to end is impacted by this new data. How do you guys address that? How would you speak to that use case? >>Well, for for us data we have taken approaches. Data for us is agnostic on the way that it comes from but that it comes from and the format that comes from for for example, if you talk about the common uses case that we have now is like data come from different formats. Every single developer use the all looking format come from different channels, TCP file system or another services. So it is very, very different. How do we get this data? And that is a big challenge. Right? How do we take data from different sources, different format and you try to unify this internal and then if you're going to talk for example to less exert let's say you Jason you're going to talk to africa, they have their own binary protocol. So we are kind of the backbone that takes all the data transfer data and try to adapt to the destination expected payload from a technical perspective. Yeah, is really challenging. Is really challenging also that Nowadays, so two years ago people was finding processing, I don't know 500,000 messages per second, But nowadays they won 10, 20 40,000. So prime architecture perspective Yeah, there are many challenges and and I think that the teamwork from the maintaining this and with companies has provided a lot of value, a lot of value. And I think that the biggest proof here is that the adoption like adoption and big adoption, you have more banks reported more enhancement requests. All right. So if I get >>this right, you got different sources of data collection issues. If you look on the front end and then you got some secret sauce with bit fluent, I mean uh inside the kubernetes clusters um and then you deliver it to multiple services and databases and cloud services. That that right. Is that the key? The key value is that is that the key value proposition? Did I get that right with fluent bit? >>Mhm. Yeah, I would say most of the technical implementation when the of the value of the technical implementation, I would say that is towards being the vendor neutral. Right? So when you come, when you go to the market and you go to the talk to bank institution hospital form and if the company right, most of them are facing this concept of bender looking right, they use a Bender database but you have to get married. So they're tooling, right? And I'm not going to mention any inventor name. Right? Actually it's very fun. Well for example, the business model, this company that start with S and ends with swung right? For example is you pay as much money so you pay as much money compared to the data that you ingested. But the default tools in just the whole data. But in reality if you go to the enterprise they say yeah. I mean just in all my data into Splunk or X provider right? But from 100 that I'm interesting, which I'm paying for, I'm just using this service to query at least 20 of the data. So why I mean just in this 80 extra I didn't get it right. That's why I want to send and this is real use case there's this language is really good for where is analyzed the data But they said yeah, 80 of my data is just a five data. I will need it maybe in a couple of months just I want to send it to Amazon history or any kind of other a archive service. So users, the value that says is that I want to have a mentor neutral pipeline which me as a user, I went to this side work went to send data, went to send it and also I can come to my bills. Right? And I think that is the biggest value. So you can go to the market. They will find maybe other tools for logging or tools for Matrix because there's a ton of them. But I think that none of them can say we are gender neutral. Not all of them can offer this flexibility to the use, right? So from a technical language performance but from an end user is being the neutrality. >>Okay. So I have to ask you then here in the C n C F projects that are going on and the community around um um fluent bit, you have to have those kinds of enhancements integrations, for instance, for not only performance improvement, but extensive bility. So enterprises there, they want everything right. They make things very >>complicated. They're very >>complicated infrastructure. So if they want some policy they want to have data ingestion policies or take advantage of no vendor lock in, how is the community responding? How did what's your vision for helping companies now? You've got your new venture and you got the open source project, How does this evolve? How do you see this evolving eduardo? Because there is a need for use cases that don't need all the data, but you need all the data to get some of the data. Right. So it's a you have a new new >>paradigm of >>coding and you want to be dynamic and relevant. What's the how do you see this evolving? >>Yeah. Actually going to give you some spoilers. Right. So some years before report. Yeah. So users has this a lot of they have a lot of problems how to collect the data processing data and send the data. We just told them right, Performance is a continuous improvement, Right? Because you have always more data, more formats, that's fine. But one critical thing that people say, hey, you say, hey, I want to put my business logic in the pipeline. So think about this if you have to embed we are the platform for data. Right? But we also provide capabilities to do data processing because you can grab the data or you can do custom modifications over the data. One thing that we did like a year two years ago is we added this kind of stream processing capabilities, can you taste equal for Kaka? But we have our own sequel engine influence them. So when the data is flowing without having any data banks, any index or anything, we can do data aggregation. You can, you can put some business logic on it and says for all the data that matches this pattern, stand it to a different destination, otherwise send it to caracas plan or elastic. So we have, this is what we have now. Extreme processing capabilities. Now what is the spoiler and what we're going next. Right now there are two major areas. One of them is distributed. Extreme processing right? The capabilities to put this intelligence on the age, on the age I'm referring to for example, a cooper needs note right or constrained environment, right? Communities on the age is something that is going on. There are many companies using that approach but they want to put some intelligence and data processing where the data is being generated. Because there is one problem when you have more data and you want to create the data, you have to wait and to centralize all the data in the database for your service. And there's a legend see right, millions sometimes hours because data needs to be in Mexico. But what about it? To have 100 of notes, but each one is already right, influenced it. Why you don't run the queries there. That is one of the features that we have. And well now talking from the challenges from spoil perspectives, people says, okay, I love this pipeline. I noticed Lambert has a political architecture but the language see it's not my thing, right? I don't want to go and see. Nobody likes see that we are honest about that. And there are many mass words about security or not just nothing, which is true, right? It's really easy to mess up things and see. Right? So, and we said, okay, so now our next level, it's like we're going to provide this year the ability to write your own plug ins in Western webassembly. So with the web is simply interface. You can run your own pregnancy goal, rust or any kind of weapon sending support language and translate that implementation to native. Wasn't that fluent that will understand. So C as a language won't be with one being longer uploaded for you as a developer. As a company that wants to put more business logic into the bike. Well that is one of the things that are coming up and really we already have some docs but they're not ready to show. So maybe we can expect something for us at the end of this year. >>Great stuff by the way, from a c standpoint us, old timers like me used to program and see, and not a lot of C courses being taught, but if you do know see it's very valuable. But again, to your point, the developers are are focused on coding the apps, not so much the underlying. So I think that's that's key. I will like to ask you one final question of water before we wrap up, how do you deploy fluid bid? What's the is it is that you're putting it inside the cluster? Is there is that scripts, What's the what's the architecture real quick? Give us a quick overview of the architecture. >>Okay, so that it's not just for a classroom, you can run it on any machine. Windows, Linux, IBM Yeah, and that doesn't need to be a kubernetes. Classic. Right? When we created to invade Copernicus was quite new at the same time. So if you talk about kubernetes deploys as a demon set at the moment is pretty much a part that runs on every note like an agent. Right? Uh, all you can run necessarily on any kind of machine. Oh and one thing before we were, I just need to mention something that from the spoil it. But because it's just getting, we're having many news these days. Is that fluently used to be mostly for logging right? And influence the specifically project. We've got many people from years ago saying, you know what? I'm losing my agent for logging to a bed but I have my agents for metrics and sometimes this is quite heavy to have multiple agents on your age. So now flowing bed is extending the capabilities to deal with native metrics. Right. The first version will be available about this week in cuba come right. We will be able to process host matrix for application metrics and send them to permit use with open matrix format in a native way. So we extended the political system to be a better citizen with open metrics and in the future also with open telemetry, which is a hot thing that is coming up on this month. >>Everyone loves metrics. That's super important. Having the data Is really, really important as day two operations and get all this stuff is happening. I wanna thank you for coming on and sharing the update and congratulations on. The new venture will keep following you and look good for the big launch but fluent bit looking good. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you so much help governments. >>Okay this is the cubes coverage of Kublai khan 21 cloud Native Con 21 virtual soon we'll be back in real life at the events extracting the signal from the noise. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

>>from around the >>globe, it's the >>cube with coverage of Kublai >>khan and cloud Native con, europe 2021 virtual brought to you by red hat. The cloud >>native computing >>foundation and ecosystem partners. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of Yukon 21 cloud native con part of the C n C f s event. This is the cubes continuing coverage. You got a great guest cube alumni entrepreneurs to borrow founder and ceo of up bound. Great to see you remotely too bad. We're not in person. But soon the pandemic Is right around the corner will be post pandemic with searing events are coming back. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on for coop con 21 >>Good, good to be back on the cube, john >>great to see you. You know, I've always loved your career, what you've been doing with that many conversations on the Cuban. Also in person, you're the creative rook and cross plane um, C N C F projects there. Um great venture, really part of this cloud native revolution that's happening, you were early on and the history of your career, but now you're seeing it go mainstream. Let's get into that on this session, because I really want to dig into this across cloud and now get ops is hugely popular. This is kind of what you call day to operate your ongoing, this is the future. This is a new environment. Before we get going, talk about the update on your in what's new with cross plane. >>Uh, So cross plane is growing as you know, it's a multi cloud control plane that essentially lets you uh you can connect it up to all the different infrastructure vendors and lets you manage infrastructure in a consistent way consistent with what, you know, what we do with the tops and and on the kubernetes ap I um and so the community has been growing tremendously. We've just applied for it together, the incubation status at the CNC F and really happy with all the progress around it. It's, it's such an amazing journey we've been on with cross plane, >>you know, it's funny you watch all the, the evolution of the cloud in the early days, it was, what is cloud, the big debate, people define what cloud is that? It was Oh yeah, clouds great. You can, you know, start up cloud developers, Greenfield, then it became enterprise cloud around 2015. Now, you know, today the cloud is not so much, you know, moving to the cloud as it was in 2015, it's like scaling and cloud, that is true enterprise grade. Um real serious operational security impacts multiple resources and this is where cross cloud comes in or, or, you know, I see hybrid clouds operating model, everyone has agreed on that. That's the architecture, but that also brings in assumes multiple clouds, right? This is where the new kind of control plane or you guys called cross cloud management kicks in. This is an enterprise priority. From what I can see. Do you agree with that? Can you share your commentary on how much our enterprises of prioritizing cross cloud management? Because that seems to be the Hot one. What's your take on us? >>Yeah, the way, the way we see it is that and we see this with customers and we see those folks in the community. Almost every enterprise we talked to is modernizing their I. T. You know, that, as you said, they're not going to cloud, they're already in cloud, but they're doing so many more things to kind of accelerate the pace of innovation and reduce the time for them to ship applications, which is now a fundamental part or fundamental measure uh of their success. Right. And so what we're seeing is that they're organizing into platform teams internally, and these teams are the ones that own the cloud accounts, they're the ones that are responsible for deploying infrastructure cross, whether it's cross cloud or hybrid cloud. Um and these teams are essentially organizing to build what looks like an internal platform and a key ingredient of this. Internal platform is a control plane and this is what enables getups. You see kubernetes as a control plane, that's in there, um it's it's the piece that's allowing them to actually connect to different clouds. It's the piece that's allowing them to manage their infrastructure, whether it's on premise or in cloud, it's the thing that's allowing them to do day to operations, all of that's happening in an interesting way. It's, it's happening within the enterprise. It is their own platform and it layers on top of the back and infrastructure that they're using, whether it's cloud providers or hybrid, you know, infrastructure, it's happening in a way that's enterprise from the enterprise and going out to the vendors, which is a little different model than we've seen in the past. And that's where multi cloud tends to come in and multi vendor or heterogeneity in general. Uh we see that very, very commonly in in the enterprise, >>you know, I think you're exactly right. That's classic market evolution in computer industry, you know, multi multi vendors, ultimately when things start to settle in on the massive growth. Hybrid cloud, however, is really kind of where the action is today. And you can see people struggling and innovating around the area of continuous operations and as you can use development develops concept. But the problem is that as they realize, well stuffs in production, it's in the public cloud, its on premises, you know, this, the operational piece starts to rear its head and we gotta fix that. And then they connect the dots a saying, if multi cloud is coming, which people generally agree upon, then they go, if we don't clean this up, we're gonna be screwed. That's generally the consensus that I can that I hear from people so explain, explain with the rise of multi cloud what cross plane is, I mean, what is cross playing about? Give us an overview around this. >>So, I mean there's a lot of ways to describe this, but we see it as like the rise of platform engineering, there's a lot happening around people building their own platforms that layer on top of cloud, which happens to also be multi vendor and multi cloud. So when you're building a platform in an enterprise that can talk to amazon that can talk to Microsoft Azure that can talk to your on premise infrastructure, whether it's VM ware or open shift, you need a, you need a layer that is able to orchestrate and deploy and manage and deal with day to operations, Right. That that is an important piece. It's the piece that is, you know, the way you can enforce your policies, you can set out your controls, whether your compliance, do your compliance and governance and essentially sell sell served uh this to your developers so that they can actually get productive and deploy applications on on this platform. And we see cross plane and what what Kubernetes has started with a control plane as a critical approach in this, in this new platform. In fact, the approach that's kind of pioneered by kubernetes with the kubernetes Api and control plane is now becoming the dominant way of managing infrastructure and deploying applications on it. This is you hear this in different ways, like this is why get off has become popular. Get Office is a really great thing. It's a way to essentially let you manage infrastructure through, you know, configuration that's stored in GIT repositories. But the thing that it connects to is a control plane that's going to make it happen, right? And we see that with kubernetes uh predominantly with kubernetes. Right. And so what cross plane does is lets you extend the getups approach and the management approach that's pioneered by the kubernetes community to the entire surface area of cloud. So not only can you deploy your containers using get apps, you can actually manage through the tops VMS server lists, databases and cloud Hybrid environments. Multi cloud environments. You know, even, you know, your load balances that are on premise could be managed through tops anything that speaks in a p I could be managed to get off if you go through a project like cross plane. Now, that part is that part is where we're seeing the most success right now. We're seeing a lot of people that are adopting these approaches to managing infrastructure while they're building their platforms and they're pulling in cross plains, we're seeing massive end user adoption of cross plane right >>now. I want to get into this. I want to get this impact of the control playing but before we get there I want a real quick while I got you an expert. I know this coupon. You don't need to explain what get upset. Everyone knows what that is. But for the folks that aren't aren't aren't in the community, I want to grab the sound bite if you don't mind. Could you define what is getups? >>Uh huh. So so get up is somewhat of a marketing term. Uh but the way I interpreted is essentially storing your configuration in a git repository. Are you using, you know, uh versioning techniques that are pioneered to manage code, right? Whether using Pr flows, storing things and get doing the collaboration of what changes happen in get and then having that be essentially mirrored to uh control plane that is able to implement the declarative configuration that you've specified. So a good example of this is if you wanted to deploy, say, you know, start up a cluster of kubernetes cluster in the cloud vendor and then run applications on it and then configure it to connect to databases. You can describe your intent and store it and get collaborate with your team members on it, make sure it's all correct. And then through getups pipeline, you're able to take those, you know, essentially, configuration and then apply it via control plane onto your vendor of choice. Right? That's that's the style. It's great because, you know, get is a great place to store configuration. It's a great place to collaborate. There are amazing tools around pr flows, pull request flows. They're amazing tools for audit ability and versioning and you get to leverage all of those when you are deploying infrastructure that runs your entire >>enterprise. Yeah. And I would also add to that. I I explain it simply for people that aren't in the weeds on the tech is think of it like a QA for srs it's like you need to manage the infrastructure because we're talking about devops infrastructure as code, we're programming infrastructure. So you've got to have some sort of process. And I think this brings up my next point about this control plane, because you mentioned um Cross plans has these nice has this nice uh program to it. Most people write their own code, they'll like they'll they'll like do homegrown work to create in their platform, mainly because there's gaps in there. Can you comment on how you guys are different than someone saying? I'm just gonna write my own code and do my own thing, my own platform team. I don't need cosplaying what I need you for. I'm gonna do it myself. >>So what we see predominantly is folks that are doing get ops or infrastructure as code and setting up pipelines for their compute workloads and specifically for containers. Right. And then, like you said, they're actually writing homegrown scripts or doing Tara forum or doing other things that are on the side to deploy. The other parts, uh including, you know, state full workloads or things that are running across a I M L on premise, hybrid, all of that stuff is done organically on the side of this beautiful path. Forget ops right. What we're doing with cross plane is essentially letting you bring all of the things that you're managing organically into the same pipelines with get offs. So you're able to actually normalize on a single approach for management for orchestration of infrastructure and applications. So you're you're able to, you know, get rid of your custom scripts and use a P I. S to define what your developers should do. You're able to, you know, use the mechanisms that are in the tools that are available to you forget ups and for the in the company's ecosystem to manage the entire surface area of, you know, infrastructure that you're managing within the enterprise in a consistent way. Right? That's where cross money comes in cross plane enables you to extend the control plane of kubernetes to manage everything that's offered by amazon and Microsoft and google and VM ware and open shift and red hat, Everything else can become falls into the same orchestrator, the same control plane that's managing it all and you can access it and give it to your developers in a safe way using, you know, get ups like approaches. >>You know, I've heard horror stories where people pushed new codes, trivial stuff and then all of a sudden breaks because um, code or script was written for a different purpose, but the impact was created into a small little dependency, but it's essentially the human error aspect of software. It's like, well we didn't really kind of see that coming, but at that point that script worked. Now this new thing, something trivial and easy breaks because and then it crashes. This is the kind of day to operations >>that very amounting >>about. Is that right? >>That's that's very much that's very much the case. And we see a lot of people kind of normalizing on templates and scripts, you know, where it's like, okay, you want to deploy database, here's a we'll open a ticket. Uh, and then some human runs, uh, you know, a template, a Terror form template, etcetera, that deploys a script and then shuttle credentials back to the developers over email or over slack and then they plug them into their manifest to deploy on through getups, pipelines. That there's a lot of interesting things that are happening and what we we want to do is to prevent the human error. To put the guard rails in place is essentially arrive at a consistent approach for all of it. Your legacy workloads, your multi cloud workloads, your hybrid workloads, your the little system that's sitting on the side. You can, you can do, you can essentially normalize on using a single approach to manage all of it. One that is safe, that you can give to developers directly there. It has all the guardrails in place, has policy and controls factored in and is exposed through an api that's the part that I think is uh, you know, leads to the largest, most scalable platforms in the world. >>You know, I think that's just natural evolution to us as your customers and enterprises get visibility on the operational standards like, Okay, let's lock that input. The guard rails down. Makes a lot of sense. I gotta ask you on the enterprise adoption pieces, something that we've been covering on silicon angle on the cube this year is looking at the mainstream adoption of kubernetes and whatnot and the rest of the cloud native. It's certainly with Covid, it's accelerated everything. How is the enterprise adoption of cross plane changing? Uh is a game that kind of momentum you expected when you started the project a few years ago? >>Um We're very pleasantly surprised by the adoption, especially in the last six months since we declared cross plane one point. Oh, it has reached a maturity level now that it's actually in Fortune 100 massive production deployments in Fortune 100 companies. Um This is why we're actually, you know, taking to the next level of C N C F, we're also proud of the ecosystem convergence on it, so we're seeing the cloud providers, working with all of them on ensuring that Crossman can address their infrastructure and we're seeing main, the community rally around us. Uh We think the ecosystem part is super interesting for cross money, as you can imagine having an orchestrator control plane that's able to, you know, address the entire surface area of infrastructure offered by all these different vendors requires the vendors to be involved. Right? Uh and so both, uh, it's a two sided network. Both the ecosystem, you know, adoption and the end user adoption are important for cross plane and we're seeing like massive traction on both right >>now. That's awesome. Traditionally, the the adoption arises that users want more things actually enterprise. They they want everything every nook and cranny, they want every feature, they want every integration. I mean they prioritize but, but as you get more, it's not just like a consumer product, although it is cloud native and you've got that, but there's, there's certain things that are table stakes and then there's innovation, but they really want the well known integrations, um, and support and so forth. How is cross playing in the community responding to the challenges as you guys get more popular and as the standards become clear around multi cloud? >>Yeah, I mean, this is the beauty of open source. I mean, we're seeing a lot of different folks contributing to open source. The majority of contributors right now to cross plane are outside of a pound. The company that started cross plane and essentially donated C N C. F. We're seeing folks that are coming in and adding the resources that they are needing, um, or adding features, really significant features to the code base and improving, which is, you know, again, it's the network effect around open source and it's just unbelievable to see and, and I'm able to see it happen and happen so quickly around the project. >>That's awesome. Well something great to have you on, your always great to talk to your super smart, we've had many great conversations in person on camera on the cube. Now, remote CNC F is again um doing such a great job with the um, the open source and now with Coop Con and cloud, Native Con, the open hybrid cloud and now cross cloud, multi cloud, whatever you wanna call it, it's happening. So I gotta ask you with respect to kubernetes because you know, we were all having beers and open stack that time we write, cooper is going to be hot, I think how many years ago that was, um I think you are kind of hanging around with me and robert and others. Um, Kubernetes was just an idea it was developing. Now it's obviously mainstream. The question that I get a lot now is how do I manage and deploy kubernetes in an open hybrid cloud to take advantage of the current state of the art, Open software and commercial opportunities and be positioned to take advantage of multi cloud. In other words, they want the future of multi cloud, but they've got to address the open hybrid cloud. So how do I do that? What's your what's your advice? >>You know, honestly, uh reflecting on the success of kubernetes, I I have a you know, maybe a controversial answer to your question. >>I think >>Kubernetes will be remembered for its control plane and its ability to manage infrastructure and applications in a general way, and not for the fact that it's a container orchestrator In 10 years, we'll probably look at kubernetes and say it's true superpower is the fact that it revolutionized how we manage infrastructure and applications using this declarative approach, using this control plane approach uh to management. And the fact that it's managing the fact that it started out with just containers is well, we'll probably be a historical thing. Uh so so so in some ways, you know, to kind of to kind of go back to your question, I'd say yes. I think kubernetes is reached mainstream in the in the container space, but we now have two uncontained, arise it and use it for management, managing infrastructure everywhere in a multi cloud and a you know, in a hybrid environment as well. >>Well, I mean that's a great point. First, I don't think that's radical. I'm on the record years ago saying that I saw it as the TCP I P moment for cloud where you have interoperability and what you're getting and I think that's so interesting right now and I think everyone is kind of, it's the hidden secrets kind of like the land grab, everyone's trying to go for us. Customers just want a provision and manage cloud infrastructure and program it with applications. I mean just think about that general basic concept. Right? I want to provision, I don't want to have to have meetings, no waterfall know that. I want to be agile. Yeah, I want operation, I want security, I want all that big 10. That's kind of where the puck is going >>very much. Self, self service is a really critical part and the part that um is part of the kubernetes uh kind of design is you developers just want a database or they wanna cash to run their application alongside their application. They don't really need to understand all the security details and networking and be pcs and everything else. And so if you give them an A. P. I just like kubernetes does that tells them. Okay, look, if you want a pot or if you want a database or if you want to cash, here's the A. P. I use, use whatever framework you want, use any language you want. And then we've got all the guardrails built in behind the A. P. I line, just, you know, through getups or not deploy this thing, provision it and then the control plane takes care of the rest. That's the, that's the path we're on as an industry, >>whatever you wanna call it, getups, cross cloud, it's unlimited cloud resource at scale. That's what customers want to do. The markets evolving superfast tons of opportunity for entrepreneurs, tons of evidence for enterprises who are themselves innovating. Again, another big theme here. I'll give you the final word around this user generated open source paradigm, what they've always been involvement now, more than ever, you start to see that, I don't know, maybe second generation, maybe third generation end user inside companies contributing to projects and driving this. This is an interesting dynamic. No one's really reporting this, your thoughts on this end user driven projects. >>We're seeing, we're seeing a lot of end users get involved in projects like cross plane. I mean, it's amazing. It's like companies that are, you know, directionally, they're all, you know, when they're modernizing, they're all heading down about that's open source or even towards cloud native projects. Right. And so it's what we see is they typically get involved initially by just asking questions and, you know, reporting issues and asking for features. And then within within a few months you see actual like meaningful contributions come in two projects. Right. And so I mean there's nothing speaks uh, nothing, nothing says their work. You know, they're committed more than just submitting a pull request where they've spent hours weeks making changes to a project. Right. And and that's happening across the entire, you know, ecosystem around cloud Native. It's, it's what makes it so powerful, >>awesome. But some great to have this conversation. Great insights. Thanks for sharing the update on cross plane and your vision around this, you know, provisioning new infrastructure, having this control, universal control plan. I think this is where everyone is talking about having that value and the scale sets up automation. You know, it just brings everything to the next, next gen, next level of capability. So I appreciate taking the time. Thanks for coming in. >>Thanks john Yeah, good. Good to be back on the, on the cube. >>Great to see you. Okay. This is the Cube coverage of coop con 21 virtual cloud native Khanum jaan for your host with the cube. Thanks for watching. Mhm.