(mellow music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE's coverage of AWS Startup Showcase. This is the closing panel session on AI machine learning, the top startups generating generative AI on AWS. It's a great panel. This is going to be the experts talking about riding the wave in generative AI. We got Ankur Mehrotra, who's the director and general manager of AI and machine learning at AWS, and Clem Delangue, co-founder and CEO of Hugging Face, and Ori Goshen, who's the co-founder and CEO of AI21 Labs. Ori from Tel Aviv dialing in, and rest coming in here on theCUBE. Appreciate you coming on for this closing session for the Startup Showcase. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you. >> I'm super excited to have you all on. Hugging Face was recently in the news with the AWS relationship, so congratulations. Open source, open science, really driving the machine learning. And we got the AI21 Labs access to the LLMs, generating huge scale live applications, commercial applications, coming to the market, all powered by AWS. So everyone, congratulations on all your success, and thank you for headlining this panel. Let's get right into it. AWS is powering this wave here. We're seeing a lot of push here from applications. Ankur, set the table for us on the AI machine learning. It's not new, it's been goin' on for a while. Past three years have been significant advancements, but there's been a lot of work done in AI machine learning. Now it's released to the public. Everybody's super excited and now says, "Oh, the future's here!" It's kind of been going on for a while and baking. Now it's kind of coming out. What's your view here? Let's get it started. >> Yes, thank you. So, yeah, as you may be aware, Amazon has been in investing in machine learning research and development since quite some time now. And we've used machine learning to innovate and improve user experiences across different Amazon products, whether it's Alexa or Amazon.com. But we've also brought in our expertise to extend what we are doing in the space and add more generative AI technology to our AWS products and services, starting with CodeWhisperer, which is an AWS service that we announced a few months ago, which is, you can think of it as a coding companion as a service, which uses generative AI models underneath. And so this is a service that customers who have no machine learning expertise can just use. And we also are talking to customers, and we see a lot of excitement about generative AI, and customers who want to build these models themselves, who have the talent and the expertise and resources. For them, AWS has a number of different options and capabilities they can leverage, such as our custom silicon, such as Trainium and Inferentia, as well as distributed machine learning capabilities that we offer as part of SageMaker, which is an end-to-end machine learning development service. At the same time, many of our customers tell us that they're interested in not training and building these generative AI models from scratch, given they can be expensive and can require specialized talent and skills to build. And so for those customers, we are also making it super easy to bring in existing generative AI models into their machine learning development environment within SageMaker for them to use. So we recently announced our partnership with Hugging Face, where we are making it super easy for customers to bring in those models into their SageMaker development environment for fine tuning and deployment. And then we are also partnering with other proprietary model providers such as AI21 and others, where we making these generative AI models available within SageMaker for our customers to use. So our approach here is to really provide customers options and choices and help them accelerate their generative AI journey. >> Ankur, thank you for setting the table there. Clem and Ori, I want to get your take, because the riding the waves, the theme of this session, and to me being in California, I imagine the big surf, the big waves, the big talent out there. This is like alpha geeks, alpha coders, developers are really leaning into this. You're seeing massive uptake from the smartest people. Whether they're young or around, they're coming in with their kind of surfboards, (chuckles) if you will. These early adopters, they've been on this for a while; Now the waves are hitting. This is a big wave, everyone sees it. What are some of those early adopter devs doing? What are some of the use cases you're seeing right out of the gate? And what does this mean for the folks that are going to come in and get on this wave? Can you guys share your perspective on this? Because you're seeing the best talent now leaning into this. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, from Hugging Face vantage points, it's not even a a wave, it's a tidal wave, or maybe even the tide itself. Because actually what we are seeing is that AI and machine learning is not something that you add to your products. It's very much a new paradigm to do all technology. It's this idea that we had in the past 15, 20 years, one way to build software and to build technology, which was writing a million lines of code, very rule-based, and then you get your product. Now what we are seeing is that every single product, every single feature, every single company is starting to adopt AI to build the next generation of technology. And that works both to make the existing use cases better, if you think of search, if you think of social network, if you think of SaaS, but also it's creating completely new capabilities that weren't possible with the previous paradigm. Now AI can generate text, it can generate image, it can describe your image, it can do so many new things that weren't possible before. >> It's going to really make the developers really productive, right? I mean, you're seeing the developer uptake strong, right? >> Yes, we have over 15,000 companies using Hugging Face now, and it keeps accelerating. I really think that maybe in like three, five years, there's not going to be any company not using AI. It's going to be really kind of the default to build all technology. >> Ori, weigh in on this. APIs, the cloud. Now I'm a developer, I want to have live applications, I want the commercial applications on this. What's your take? Weigh in here. >> Yeah, first, I absolutely agree. I mean, we're in the midst of a technology shift here. I think not a lot of people realize how big this is going to be. Just the number of possibilities is endless, and I think hard to imagine. And I don't think it's just the use cases. I think we can think of it as two separate categories. We'll see companies and products enhancing their offerings with these new AI capabilities, but we'll also see new companies that are AI first, that kind of reimagine certain experiences. They build something that wasn't possible before. And that's why I think it's actually extremely exciting times. And maybe more philosophically, I think now these large language models and large transformer based models are helping us people to express our thoughts and kind of making the bridge from our thinking to a creative digital asset in a speed we've never imagined before. I can write something down and get a piece of text, or an image, or a code. So I'll start by saying it's hard to imagine all the possibilities right now, but it's certainly big. And if I had to bet, I would say it's probably at least as big as the mobile revolution we've seen in the last 20 years. >> Yeah, this is the biggest. I mean, it's been compared to the Enlightenment Age. I saw the Wall Street Journal had a recent story on this. We've been saying that this is probably going to be bigger than all inflection points combined in the tech industry, given what transformation is coming. I guess I want to ask you guys, on the early adopters, we've been hearing on these interviews and throughout the industry that there's already a set of big companies, a set of companies out there that have a lot of data and they're already there, they're kind of tinkering. Kind of reminds me of the old hyper scaler days where they were building their own scale, and they're eatin' glass, spittin' nails out, you know, they're hardcore. Then you got everybody else kind of saying board level, "Hey team, how do I leverage this?" How do you see those two things coming together? You got the fast followers coming in behind the early adopters. What's it like for the second wave coming in? What are those conversations for those developers like? >> I mean, I think for me, the important switch for companies is to change their mindset from being kind of like a traditional software company to being an AI or machine learning company. And that means investing, hiring machine learning engineers, machine learning scientists, infrastructure in members who are working on how to put these models in production, team members who are able to optimize models, specialized models, customized models for the company's specific use cases. So it's really changing this mindset of how you build technology and optimize your company building around that. Things are moving so fast that I think now it's kind of like too late for low hanging fruits or small, small adjustments. I think it's important to realize that if you want to be good at that, and if you really want to surf this wave, you need massive investments. If there are like some surfers listening with this analogy of the wave, right, when there are waves, it's not enough just to stand and make a little bit of adjustments. You need to position yourself aggressively, paddle like crazy, and that's how you get into the waves. So that's what companies, in my opinion, need to do right now. >> Ori, what's your take on the generative models out there? We hear a lot about foundation models. What's your experience running end-to-end applications for large foundation models? Any insights you can share with the app developers out there who are looking to get in? >> Yeah, I think first of all, it's start create an economy, where it probably doesn't make sense for every company to create their own foundation models. You can basically start by using an existing foundation model, either open source or a proprietary one, and start deploying it for your needs. And then comes the second round when you are starting the optimization process. You bootstrap, whether it's a demo, or a small feature, or introducing new capability within your product, and then start collecting data. That data, and particularly the human feedback data, helps you to constantly improve the model, so you create this data flywheel. And I think we're now entering an era where customers have a lot of different choice of how they want to start their generative AI endeavor. And it's a good thing that there's a variety of choices. And the really amazing thing here is that every industry, any company you speak with, it could be something very traditional like industrial or financial, medical, really any company. I think peoples now start to imagine what are the possibilities, and seriously think what's their strategy for adopting this generative AI technology. And I think in that sense, the foundation model actually enabled this to become scalable. So the barrier to entry became lower; Now the adoption could actually accelerate. >> There's a lot of integration aspects here in this new wave that's a little bit different. Before it was like very monolithic, hardcore, very brittle. A lot more integration, you see a lot more data coming together. I have to ask you guys, as developers come in and grow, I mean, when I went to college and you were a software engineer, I mean, I got a degree in computer science, and software engineering, that's all you did was code, (chuckles) you coded. Now, isn't it like everyone's a machine learning engineer at this point? Because that will be ultimately the science. So, (chuckles) you got open source, you got open software, you got the communities. Swami called you guys the GitHub of machine learning, Hugging Face is the GitHub of machine learning, mainly because that's where people are going to code. So this is essentially, machine learning is computer science. What's your reaction to that? >> Yes, my co-founder Julien at Hugging Face have been having this thing for quite a while now, for over three years, which was saying that actually software engineering as we know it today is a subset of machine learning, instead of the other way around. People would call us crazy a few years ago when we're seeing that. But now we are realizing that you can actually code with machine learning. So machine learning is generating code. And we are starting to see that every software engineer can leverage machine learning through open models, through APIs, through different technology stack. So yeah, it's not crazy anymore to think that maybe in a few years, there's going to be more people doing AI and machine learning. However you call it, right? Maybe you'll still call them software engineers, maybe you'll call them machine learning engineers. But there might be more of these people in a couple of years than there is software engineers today. >> I bring this up as more tongue in cheek as well, because Ankur, infrastructure's co is what made Cloud great, right? That's kind of the DevOps movement. But here the shift is so massive, there will be a game-changing philosophy around coding. Machine learning as code, you're starting to see CodeWhisperer, you guys have had coding companions for a while on AWS. So this is a paradigm shift. How is the cloud playing into this for you guys? Because to me, I've been riffing on some interviews where it's like, okay, you got the cloud going next level. This is an example of that, where there is a DevOps-like moment happening with machine learning, whether you call it coding or whatever. It's writing code on its own. Can you guys comment on what this means on top of the cloud? What comes out of the scale? What comes out of the benefit here? >> Absolutely, so- >> Well first- >> Oh, go ahead. >> Yeah, so I think as far as scale is concerned, I think customers are really relying on cloud to make sure that the applications that they build can scale along with the needs of their business. But there's another aspect to it, which is that until a few years ago, John, what we saw was that machine learning was a data scientist heavy activity. They were data scientists who were taking the data and training models. And then as machine learning found its way more and more into production and actual usage, we saw the MLOps become a thing, and MLOps engineers become more involved into the process. And then we now are seeing, as machine learning is being used to solve more business critical problems, we're seeing even legal and compliance teams get involved. We are seeing business stakeholders more engaged. So, more and more machine learning is becoming an activity that's not just performed by data scientists, but is performed by a team and a group of people with different skills. And for them, we as AWS are focused on providing the best tools and services for these different personas to be able to do their job and really complete that end-to-end machine learning story. So that's where, whether it's tools related to MLOps or even for folks who cannot code or don't know any machine learning. For example, we launched SageMaker Canvas as a tool last year, which is a UI-based tool which data analysts and business analysts can use to build machine learning models. So overall, the spectrum in terms of persona and who can get involved in the machine learning process is expanding, and the cloud is playing a big role in that process. >> Ori, Clem, can you guys weigh in too? 'Cause this is just another abstraction layer of scale. What's it mean for you guys as you look forward to your customers and the use cases that you're enabling? >> Yes, I think what's important is that the AI companies and providers and the cloud kind of work together. That's how you make a seamless experience and you actually reduce the barrier to entry for this technology. So that's what we've been super happy to do with AWS for the past few years. We actually announced not too long ago that we are doubling down on our partnership with AWS. We're excited to have many, many customers on our shared product, the Hugging Face deep learning container on SageMaker. And we are working really closely with the Inferentia team and the Trainium team to release some more exciting stuff in the coming weeks and coming months. So I think when you have an ecosystem and a system where the AWS and the AI providers, AI startups can work hand in hand, it's to the benefit of the customers and the companies, because it makes it orders of magnitude easier for them to adopt this new paradigm to build technology AI. >> Ori, this is a scale on reasoning too. The data's out there and making sense out of it, making it reason, getting comprehension, having it make decisions is next, isn't it? And you need scale for that. >> Yes. Just a comment about the infrastructure side. So I think really the purpose is to streamline and make these technologies much more accessible. And I think we'll see, I predict that we'll see in the next few years more and more tooling that make this technology much more simple to consume. And I think it plays a very important role. There's so many aspects, like the monitoring the models and their kind of outputs they produce, and kind of containing and running them in a production environment. There's so much there to build on, the infrastructure side will play a very significant role. >> All right, that's awesome stuff. I'd love to change gears a little bit and get a little philosophy here around AI and how it's going to transform, if you guys don't mind. There's been a lot of conversations around, on theCUBE here as well as in some industry areas, where it's like, okay, all the heavy lifting is automated away with machine learning and AI, the complexity, there's some efficiencies, it's horizontal and scalable across all industries. Ankur, good point there. Everyone's going to use it for something. And a lot of stuff gets brought to the table with large language models and other things. But the key ingredient will be proprietary data or human input, or some sort of AI whisperer kind of role, or prompt engineering, people are saying. So with that being said, some are saying it's automating intelligence. And that creativity will be unleashed from this. If the heavy lifting goes away and AI can fill the void, that shifts the value to the intellect or the input. And so that means data's got to come together, interact, fuse, and understand each other. This is kind of new. I mean, old school AI was, okay, got a big model, I provisioned it long time, very expensive. Now it's all free flowing. Can you guys comment on where you see this going with this freeform, data flowing everywhere, heavy lifting, and then specialization? >> Yeah, I think- >> Go ahead. >> Yeah, I think, so what we are seeing with these large language models or generative models is that they're really good at creating stuff. But I think it's also important to recognize their limitations. They're not as good at reasoning and logic. And I think now we're seeing great enthusiasm, I think, which is justified. And the next phase would be how to make these systems more reliable. How to inject more reasoning capabilities into these models, or augment with other mechanisms that actually perform more reasoning so we can achieve more reliable results. And we can count on these models to perform for critical tasks, whether it's medical tasks, legal tasks. We really want to kind of offload a lot of the intelligence to these systems. And then we'll have to get back, we'll have to make sure these are reliable, we'll have to make sure we get some sort of explainability that we can understand the process behind the generated results that we received. So I think this is kind of the next phase of systems that are based on these generated models. >> Clem, what's your view on this? Obviously you're at open community, open source has been around, it's been a great track record, proven model. I'm assuming creativity's going to come out of the woodwork, and if we can automate open source contribution, and relationships, and onboarding more developers, there's going to be unleashing of creativity. >> Yes, it's been so exciting on the open source front. We all know Bert, Bloom, GPT-J, T5, Stable Diffusion, that work up. The previous or the current generation of open source models that are on Hugging Face. It has been accelerating in the past few months. So I'm super excited about ControlNet right now that is really having a lot of impact, which is kind of like a way to control the generation of images. Super excited about Flan UL2, which is like a new model that has been recently released and is open source. So yeah, it's really fun to see the ecosystem coming together. Open source has been the basis for traditional software, with like open source programming languages, of course, but also all the great open source that we've gotten over the years. So we're happy to see that the same thing is happening for machine learning and AI, and hopefully can help a lot of companies reduce a little bit the barrier to entry. So yeah, it's going to be exciting to see how it evolves in the next few years in that respect. >> I think the developer productivity angle that's been talked about a lot in the industry will be accelerated significantly. I think security will be enhanced by this. I think in general, applications are going to transform at a radical rate, accelerated, incredible rate. So I think it's not a big wave, it's the water, right? I mean, (chuckles) it's the new thing. My final question for you guys, if you don't mind, I'd love to get each of you to answer the question I'm going to ask you, which is, a lot of conversations around data. Data infrastructure's obviously involved in this. And the common thread that I'm hearing is that every company that looks at this is asking themselves, if we don't rebuild our company, start thinking about rebuilding our business model around AI, we might be dinosaurs, we might be extinct. And it reminds me that scene in Moneyball when, at the end, it's like, if we're not building the model around your model, every company will be out of business. What's your advice to companies out there that are having those kind of moments where it's like, okay, this is real, this is next gen, this is happening. I better start thinking and putting into motion plans to refactor my business, 'cause it's happening, business transformation is happening on the cloud. This kind of puts an exclamation point on, with the AI, as a next step function. Big increase in value. So it's an opportunity for leaders. Ankur, we'll start with you. What's your advice for folks out there thinking about this? Do they put their toe in the water? Do they jump right into the deep end? What's your advice? >> Yeah, John, so we talk to a lot of customers, and customers are excited about what's happening in the space, but they often ask us like, "Hey, where do we start?" So we always advise our customers to do a lot of proof of concepts, understand where they can drive the biggest ROI. And then also leverage existing tools and services to move fast and scale, and try and not reinvent the wheel where it doesn't need to be. That's basically our advice to customers. >> Get it. Ori, what's your advice to folks who are scratching their head going, "I better jump in here. "How do I get started?" What's your advice? >> So I actually think that need to think about it really economically. Both on the opportunity side and the challenges. So there's a lot of opportunities for many companies to actually gain revenue upside by building these new generative features and capabilities. On the other hand, of course, this would probably affect the cogs, and incorporating these capabilities could probably affect the cogs. So I think we really need to think carefully about both of these sides, and also understand clearly if this is a project or an F word towards cost reduction, then the ROI is pretty clear, or revenue amplifier, where there's, again, a lot of different opportunities. So I think once you think about this in a structured way, I think, and map the different initiatives, then it's probably a good way to start and a good way to start thinking about these endeavors. >> Awesome. Clem, what's your take on this? What's your advice, folks out there? >> Yes, all of these are very good advice already. Something that you said before, John, that I disagreed a little bit, a lot of people are talking about the data mode and proprietary data. Actually, when you look at some of the organizations that have been building the best models, they don't have specialized or unique access to data. So I'm not sure that's so important today. I think what's important for companies, and it's been the same for the previous generation of technology, is their ability to build better technology faster than others. And in this new paradigm, that means being able to build machine learning faster than others, and better. So that's how, in my opinion, you should approach this. And kind of like how can you evolve your company, your teams, your products, so that you are able in the long run to build machine learning better and faster than your competitors. And if you manage to put yourself in that situation, then that's when you'll be able to differentiate yourself to really kind of be impactful and get results. That's really hard to do. It's something really different, because machine learning and AI is a different paradigm than traditional software. So this is going to be challenging, but I think if you manage to nail that, then the future is going to be very interesting for your company. >> That's a great point. Thanks for calling that out. I think this all reminds me of the cloud days early on. If you went to the cloud early, you took advantage of it when the pandemic hit. If you weren't native in the cloud, you got hamstrung by that, you were flatfooted. So just get in there. (laughs) Get in the cloud, get into AI, you're going to be good. Thanks for for calling that. Final parting comments, what's your most exciting thing going on right now for you guys? Ori, Clem, what's the most exciting thing on your plate right now that you'd like to share with folks? >> I mean, for me it's just the diversity of use cases and really creative ways of companies leveraging this technology. Every day I speak with about two, three customers, and I'm continuously being surprised by the creative ideas. And the future is really exciting of what can be achieved here. And also I'm amazed by the pace that things move in this industry. It's just, there's not at dull moment. So, definitely exciting times. >> Clem, what are you most excited about right now? >> For me, it's all the new open source models that have been released in the past few weeks, and that they'll keep being released in the next few weeks. I'm also super excited about more and more companies getting into this capability of chaining different models and different APIs. I think that's a very, very interesting development, because it creates new capabilities, new possibilities, new functionalities that weren't possible before. You can plug an API with an open source embedding model, with like a no-geo transcription model. So that's also very exciting. This capability of having more interoperable machine learning will also, I think, open a lot of interesting things in the future. >> Clem, congratulations on your success at Hugging Face. Please pass that on to your team. Ori, congratulations on your success, and continue to, just day one. I mean, it's just the beginning. It's not even scratching the service. Ankur, I'll give you the last word. What are you excited for at AWS? More cloud goodness coming here with AI. Give you the final word. >> Yeah, so as both Clem and Ori said, I think the research in the space is moving really, really fast, so we are excited about that. But we are also excited to see the speed at which enterprises and other AWS customers are applying machine learning to solve real business problems, and the kind of results they're seeing. So when they come back to us and tell us the kind of improvement in their business metrics and overall customer experience that they're driving and they're seeing real business results, that's what keeps us going and inspires us to continue inventing on their behalf. >> Gentlemen, thank you so much for this awesome high impact panel. Ankur, Clem, Ori, congratulations on all your success. We'll see you around. Thanks for coming on. Generative AI, riding the wave, it's a tidal wave, it's the water, it's all happening. All great stuff. This is season three, episode one of AWS Startup Showcase closing panel. This is the AI ML episode, the top startups building generative AI on AWS. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (mellow music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone, welcome to theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, the host of theCUBE in Palo Alto, California. Also it's SiliconANGLE News. Got two great guests here to talk about AI, the impact of the future of the internet, the applications, the people. Amr Awadallah, the founder and CEO, Ed Alban is the CEO of Vectara, a new startup that emerged out of the original Cloudera, I would say, 'cause Amr's known, famous for the Cloudera founding, which was really the beginning of the big data movement. And now as AI goes mainstream, there's so much to talk about, so much to go on. And plus the new company is one of the, now what I call the wave, this next big wave, I call it the fifth wave in the industry. You know, you had PCs, you had the internet, you had mobile. This generative AI thing is real. And you're starting to see startups come out in droves. Amr obviously was founder of Cloudera, Big Data, and now Vectara. And Ed Albanese, you guys have a new company. Welcome to the show. >> Thank you. It's great to be here. >> So great to see you. Now the story is theCUBE started in the Cloudera office. Thanks to you, and your friendly entrepreneurship views that you have. We got to know each other over the years. But Cloudera had Hadoop, which was the beginning of what I call the big data wave, which then became what we now call data lakes, data oceans, and data infrastructure that's developed from that. It's almost interesting to look back 12 plus years, and see that what AI is doing now, right now, is opening up the eyes to the mainstream, and the application's almost mind blowing. You know, Sati Natel called it the Mosaic Moment, didn't say Netscape, he built Netscape (laughing) but called it the Mosaic Moment. You're seeing companies in startups, kind of the alpha geeks running here, because this is the new frontier, and there's real meat on the bone, in terms of like things to do. Why? Why is this happening now? What's is the confluence of the forces happening, that are making this happen? >> Yeah, I mean if you go back to the Cloudera days, with big data, and so on, that was more about data processing. Like how can we process data, so we can extract numbers from it, and do reporting, and maybe take some actions, like this is a fraud transaction, or this is not. And in the meanwhile, many of the researchers working in the neural network, and deep neural network space, were trying to focus on data understanding, like how can I understand the data, and learn from it, so I can take actual actions, based on the data directly, just like a human does. And we were only good at doing that at the level of somebody who was five years old, or seven years old, all the way until about 2013. And starting in 2013, which is only 10 years ago, a number of key innovations started taking place, and each one added on. It was no major innovation that just took place. It was a couple of really incremental ones, but they added on top of each other, in a very exponentially additive way, that led to, by the end of 2019, we now have models, deep neural network models, that can read and understand human text just like we do. Right? And they can reason about it, and argue with you, and explain it to you. And I think that's what is unlocking this whole new wave of innovation that we're seeing right now. So data understanding would be the essence of it. >> So it's not a Big Bang kind of theory, it's been evolving over time, and I think that the tipping point has been the advancements and other things. I mean look at cloud computing, and look how fast it just crept up on AWS. I mean AWS you back three, five years ago, I was talking to Swami yesterday, and their big news about AI, expanding the Hugging Face's relationship with AWS. And just three, five years ago, there wasn't a model training models out there. But as compute comes out, and you got more horsepower,, these large language models, these foundational models, they're flexible, they're not monolithic silos, they're interacting. There's a whole new, almost fusion of data happening. Do you see that? I mean is that part of this? >> Of course, of course. I mean this wave is building on all the previous waves. We wouldn't be at this point if we did not have hardware that can scale, in a very efficient way. We wouldn't be at this point, if we don't have data that we're collecting about everything we do, that we're able to process in this way. So this, this movement, this motion, this phase we're in, absolutely builds on the shoulders of all the previous phases. For some of the observers from the outside, when they see chatGPT for the first time, for them was like, "Oh my god, this just happened overnight." Like it didn't happen overnight. (laughing) GPT itself, like GPT3, which is what chatGPT is based on, was released a year ahead of chatGPT, and many of us were seeing the power it can provide, and what it can do. I don't know if Ed agrees with that. >> Yeah, Ed? >> I do. Although I would acknowledge that the possibilities now, because of what we've hit from a maturity standpoint, have just opened up in an incredible way, that just wasn't tenable even three years ago. And that's what makes it, it's true that it developed incrementally, in the same way that, you know, the possibilities of a mobile handheld device, you know, in 2006 were there, but when the iPhone came out, the possibilities just exploded. And that's the moment we're in. >> Well, I've had many conversations over the past couple months around this area with chatGPT. John Markoff told me the other day, that he calls it, "The five dollar toy," because it's not that big of a deal, in context to what AI's doing behind the scenes, and all the work that's done on ethics, that's happened over the years, but it has woken up the mainstream, so everyone immediately jumps to ethics. "Does it work? "It's not factual," And everyone who's inside the industry is like, "This is amazing." 'Cause you have two schools of thought there. One's like, people that think this is now the beginning of next gen, this is now we're here, this ain't your grandfather's chatbot, okay?" With NLP, it's got reasoning, it's got other things. >> I'm in that camp for sure. >> Yeah. Well I mean, everyone who knows what's going on is in that camp. And as the naysayers start to get through this, and they go, "Wow, it's not just plagiarizing homework, "it's helping me be better. "Like it could rewrite my memo, "bring the lead to the top." It's so the format of the user interface is interesting, but it's still a data-driven app. >> Absolutely. >> So where does it go from here? 'Cause I'm not even calling this the first ending. This is like pregame, in my opinion. What do you guys see this going, in terms of scratching the surface to what happens next? >> I mean, I'll start with, I just don't see how an application is going to look the same in the next three years. Who's going to want to input data manually, in a form field? Who is going to want, or expect, to have to put in some text in a search box, and then read through 15 different possibilities, and try to figure out which one of them actually most closely resembles the question they asked? You know, I don't see that happening. Who's going to start with an absolute blank sheet of paper, and expect no help? That is not how an application will work in the next three years, and it's going to fundamentally change how people interact and spend time with opening any element on their mobile phone, or on their computer, to get something done. >> Yes. I agree with that. Like every single application, over the next five years, will be rewritten, to fit within this model. So imagine an HR application, I don't want to name companies, but imagine an HR application, and you go into application and you clicking on buttons, because you want to take two weeks of vacation, and menus, and clicking here and there, reasons and managers, versus just telling the system, "I'm taking two weeks of vacation, going to Las Vegas," book it, done. >> Yeah. >> And the system just does it for you. If you weren't completing in your input, in your description, for what you want, then the system asks you back, "Did you mean this? "Did you mean that? "Were you trying to also do this as well?" >> Yeah. >> "What was the reason?" And that will fit it for you, and just do it for you. So I think the user interface that we have with apps, is going to change to be very similar to the user interface that we have with each other. And that's why all these apps will need to evolve. >> I know we don't have a lot of time, 'cause you guys are very busy, but I want to definitely have multiple segments with you guys, on this topic, because there's so much to talk about. There's a lot of parallels going on here. I was talking again with Swami who runs all the AI database at AWS, and I asked him, I go, "This feels a lot like the original AWS. "You don't have to provision a data center." A lot of this heavy lifting on the back end, is these large language models, with these foundational models. So the bottleneck in the past, was the energy, and cost to actually do it. Now you're seeing it being stood up faster. So there's definitely going to be a tsunami of apps. I would see that clearly. What is it? We don't know yet. But also people who are going to leverage the fact that I can get started building value. So I see a startup boom coming, and I see an application tsunami of refactoring things. >> Yes. >> So the replatforming is already kind of happening. >> Yes, >> OpenAI, chatGPT, whatever. So that's going to be a developer environment. I mean if Amazon turns this into an API, or a Microsoft, what you guys are doing. >> We're turning it into API as well. That's part of what we're doing as well, yes. >> This is why this is exciting. Amr, you've lived the big data dream, and and we used to talk, if you didn't have a big data problem, if you weren't full of data, you weren't really getting it. Now people have all the data, and they got to stand this up. >> Yeah. >> So the analogy is again, the mobile, I like the mobile movement, and using mobile as an analogy, most companies were not building for a mobile environment, right? They were just building for the web, and legacy way of doing apps. And as soon as the user expectations shifted, that my expectation now, I need to be able to do my job on this small screen, on the mobile device with a touchscreen. Everybody had to invest in re-architecting, and re-implementing every single app, to fit within that model, and that model of interaction. And we are seeing the exact same thing happen now. And one of the core things we're focused on at Vectara, is how to simplify that for organizations, because a lot of them are overwhelmed by large language models, and ML. >> They don't have the staff. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're understaffed, they don't have the skills. >> But they got developers, they've got DevOps, right? >> Yes. >> So they have the DevSecOps going on. >> Exactly, yes. >> So our goal is to simplify it enough for them that they can start leveraging this technology effectively, within their applications. >> Ed, you're the COO of the company, obviously a startup. You guys are growing. You got great backup, and good team. You've also done a lot of business development, and technical business development in this area. If you look at the landscape right now, and I agree the apps are coming, every company I talk to, that has that jet chatGPT of, you know, epiphany, "Oh my God, look how cool this is. "Like magic." Like okay, it's code, settle down. >> Mm hmm. >> But everyone I talk to is using it in a very horizontal way. I talk to a very senior person, very tech alpha geek, very senior person in the industry, technically. they're using it for log data, they're using it for configuration of routers. And in other areas, they're using it for, every vertical has a use case. So this is horizontally scalable from a use case standpoint. When you hear horizontally scalable, first thing I chose in my mind is cloud, right? >> Mm hmm. >> So cloud, and scalability that way. And the data is very specialized. So now you have this vertical specialization, horizontally scalable, everyone will be refactoring. What do you see, and what are you seeing from customers, that you talk to, and prospects? >> Yeah, I mean put yourself in the shoes of an application developer, who is actually trying to make their application a bit more like magic. And to have that soon-to-be, honestly, expected experience. They've got to think about things like performance, and how efficiently that they can actually execute a query, or a question. They've got to think about cost. Generative isn't cheap, like the inference of it. And so you've got to be thoughtful about how and when you take advantage of it, you can't use it as a, you know, everything looks like a nail, and I've got a hammer, and I'm going to hit everything with it, because that will be wasteful. Developers also need to think about how they're going to take advantage of, but not lose their own data. So there has to be some controls around what they feed into the large language model, if anything. Like, should they fine tune a large language model with their own data? Can they keep it logically separated, but still take advantage of the powers of a large language model? And they've also got to take advantage, and be aware of the fact that when data is generated, that it is a different class of data. It might not fully be their own. >> Yeah. >> And it may not even be fully verified. And so when the logical cycle starts, of someone making a request, the relationship between that request, and the output, those things have to be stored safely, logically, and identified as such. >> Yeah. >> And taken advantage of in an ongoing fashion. So these are mega problems, each one of them independently, that, you know, you can think of it as middleware companies need to take advantage of, and think about, to help the next wave of application development be logical, sensible, and effective. It's not just calling some raw API on the cloud, like openAI, and then just, you know, you get your answer and you're done, because that is a very brute force approach. >> Well also I will point, first of all, I agree with your statement about the apps experience, that's going to be expected, form filling. Great point. The interesting about chatGPT. >> Sorry, it's not just form filling, it's any action you would like to take. >> Yeah. >> Instead of clicking, and dragging, and dropping, and doing it on a menu, or on a touch screen, you just say it, and it's and it happens perfectly. >> Yeah. It's a different interface. And that's why I love that UIUX experiences, that's the people falling out of their chair moment with chatGPT, right? But a lot of the things with chatGPT, if you feed it right, it works great. If you feed it wrong and it goes off the rails, it goes off the rails big. >> Yes, yes. >> So the the Bing catastrophes. >> Yeah. >> And that's an example of garbage in, garbage out, classic old school kind of comp-side phrase that we all use. >> Yep. >> Yes. >> This is about data in injection, right? It reminds me the old SQL days, if you had to, if you can sling some SQL, you were a magician, you know, to get the right answer, it's pretty much there. So you got to feed the AI. >> You do, Some people call this, the early word to describe this as prompt engineering. You know, old school, you know, search, or, you know, engagement with data would be, I'm going to, I have a question or I have a query. New school is, I have, I have to issue it a prompt, because I'm trying to get, you know, an action or a reaction, from the system. And the active engineering, there are a lot of different ways you could do it, all the way from, you know, raw, just I'm going to send you whatever I'm thinking. >> Yeah. >> And you get the unintended outcomes, to more constrained, where I'm going to just use my own data, and I'm going to constrain the initial inputs, the data I already know that's first party, and I trust, to, you know, hyper constrain, where the application is actually, it's looking for certain elements to respond to. >> It's interesting Amr, this is why I love this, because one we are in the media, we're recording this video now, we'll stream it. But we got all your linguistics, we're talking. >> Yes. >> This is data. >> Yep. >> So the data quality becomes now the new intellectual property, because, if you have that prompt source data, it makes data or content, in our case, the original content, intellectual property. >> Absolutely. >> Because that's the value. And that's where you see chatGPT fall down, is because they're trying to scroll the web, and people think it's search. It's not necessarily search, it's giving you something that you wanted. It is a lot of that, I remember in Cloudera, you said, "Ask the right questions." Remember that phrase you guys had, that slogan? >> Mm hmm. And that's prompt engineering. So that's exactly, that's the reinvention of "Ask the right question," is prompt engineering is, if you don't give these models the question in the right way, and very few people know how to frame it in the right way with the right context, then you will get garbage out. Right? That is the garbage in, garbage out. But if you specify the question correctly, and you provide with it the metadata that constrain what that question is going to be acted upon or answered upon, then you'll get much better answers. And that's exactly what we solved Vectara. >> Okay. So before we get into the last couple minutes we have left, I want to make sure we get a plug in for the opportunity, and the profile of Vectara, your new company. Can you guys both share with me what you think the current situation is? So for the folks who are now having those moments of, "Ah, AI's bullshit," or, "It's not real, it's a lot of stuff," from, "Oh my god, this is magic," to, "Okay, this is the future." >> Yes. >> What would you say to that person, if you're at a cocktail party, or in the elevator say, "Calm down, this is the first inning." How do you explain the dynamics going on right now, to someone who's either in the industry, but not in the ropes? How would you explain like, what this wave's about? How would you describe it, and how would you prepare them for how to change their life around this? >> Yeah, so I'll go first and then I'll let Ed go. Efficiency, efficiency is the description. So we figured that a way to be a lot more efficient, a way where you can write a lot more emails, create way more content, create way more presentations. Developers can develop 10 times faster than they normally would. And that is very similar to what happened during the Industrial Revolution. I always like to look at examples from the past, to read what will happen now, and what will happen in the future. So during the Industrial Revolution, it was about efficiency with our hands, right? So I had to make a piece of cloth, like this piece of cloth for this shirt I'm wearing. Our ancestors, they had to spend month taking the cotton, making it into threads, taking the threads, making them into pieces of cloth, and then cutting it. And now a machine makes it just like that, right? And the ancestors now turned from the people that do the thing, to manage the machines that do the thing. And I think the same thing is going to happen now, is our efficiency will be multiplied extremely, as human beings, and we'll be able to do a lot more. And many of us will be able to do things they couldn't do before. So another great example I always like to use is the example of Google Maps, and GPS. Very few of us knew how to drive a car from one location to another, and read a map, and get there correctly. But once that efficiency of an AI, by the way, behind these things is very, very complex AI, that figures out how to do that for us. All of us now became amazing navigators that can go from any point to any point. So that's kind of how I look at the future. >> And that's a great real example of impact. Ed, your take on how you would talk to a friend, or colleague, or anyone who asks like, "How do I make sense of the current situation? "Is it real? "What's in it for me, and what do I do?" I mean every company's rethinking their business right now, around this. What would you say to them? >> You know, I usually like to show, rather than describe. And so, you know, the other day I just got access, I've been using an application for a long time, called Notion, and it's super popular. There's like 30 or 40 million users. And the new version of Notion came out, which has AI embedded within it. And it's AI that allows you primarily to create. So if you could break down the world of AI into find and create, for a minute, just kind of logically separate those two things, find is certainly going to be massively impacted in our experiences as consumers on, you know, Google and Bing, and I can't believe I just said the word Bing in the same sentence as Google, but that's what's happening now (all laughing), because it's a good example of change. >> Yes. >> But also inside the business. But on the crate side, you know, Notion is a wiki product, where you try to, you know, note down things that you are thinking about, or you want to share and memorialize. But sometimes you do need help to get it down fast. And just in the first day of using this new product, like my experience has really fundamentally changed. And I think that anybody who would, you know, anybody say for example, that is using an existing app, I would show them, open up the app. Now imagine the possibility of getting a starting point right off the bat, in five seconds of, instead of having to whole cloth draft this thing, imagine getting a starting point then you can modify and edit, or just dispose of and retry again. And that's the potential for me. I can't imagine a scenario where, in a few years from now, I'm going to be satisfied if I don't have a little bit of help, in the same way that I don't manually spell check every email that I send. I automatically spell check it. I love when I'm getting type ahead support inside of Google, or anything. Doesn't mean I always take it, or when texting. >> That's efficiency too. I mean the cloud was about developers getting stuff up quick. >> Exactly. >> All that heavy lifting is there for you, so you don't have to do it. >> Right? >> And you get to the value faster. >> Exactly. I mean, if history taught us one thing, it's, you have to always embrace efficiency, and if you don't fast enough, you will fall behind. Again, looking at the industrial revolution, the companies that embraced the industrial revolution, they became the leaders in the world, and the ones who did not, they all like. >> Well the AI thing that we got to watch out for, is watching how it goes off the rails. If it doesn't have the right prompt engineering, or data architecture, infrastructure. >> Yes. >> It's a big part. So this comes back down to your startup, real quick, I know we got a couple minutes left. Talk about the company, the motivation, and we'll do a deeper dive on on the company. But what's the motivation? What are you targeting for the market, business model? The tech, let's go. >> Actually, I would like Ed to go first. Go ahead. >> Sure, I mean, we're a developer-first, API-first platform. So the product is oriented around allowing developers who may not be superstars, in being able to either leverage, or choose, or select their own large language models for appropriate use cases. But they that want to be able to instantly add the power of large language models into their application set. We started with search, because we think it's going to be one of the first places that people try to take advantage of large language models, to help find information within an application context. And we've built our own large language models, focused on making it very efficient, and elegant, to find information more quickly. So what a developer can do is, within minutes, go up, register for an account, and get access to a set of APIs, that allow them to send data, to be converted into a format that's easy to understand for large language models, vectors. And then secondarily, they can issue queries, ask questions. And they can ask them very, the questions that can be asked, are very natural language questions. So we're talking about long form sentences, you know, drill down types of questions, and they can get answers that either come back in depending upon the form factor of the user interface, in list form, or summarized form, where summarized equals the opportunity to kind of see a condensed, singular answer. >> All right. I have a. >> Oh okay, go ahead, you go. >> I was just going to say, I'm going to be a customer for you, because I want, my dream was to have a hologram of theCUBE host, me and Dave, and have questions be generated in the metaverse. So you know. (all laughing) >> There'll be no longer any guests here. They'll all be talking to you guys. >> Give a couple bullets, I'll spit out 10 good questions. Publish a story. This brings the automation, I'm sorry to interrupt you. >> No, no. No, no, I was just going to follow on on the same. So another way to look at exactly what Ed described is, we want to offer you chatGPT for your own data, right? So imagine taking all of the recordings of all of the interviews you have done, and having all of the content of that being ingested by a system, where you can now have a conversation with your own data and say, "Oh, last time when I met Amr, "which video games did we talk about? "Which movie or book did we use as an analogy "for how we should be embracing data science, "and big data, which is moneyball," I know you use moneyball all the time. And you start having that conversation. So, now the data doesn't become a passive asset that you just have in your organization. No. It's an active participant that's sitting with you, on the table, helping you make decisions. >> One of my favorite things to do with customers, is to go to their site or application, and show them me using it. So for example, one of the customers I talked to was one of the biggest property management companies in the world, that lets people go and rent homes, and houses, and things like that. And you know, I went and I showed them me searching through reviews, looking for information, and trying different words, and trying to find out like, you know, is this place quiet? Is it comfortable? And then I put all the same data into our platform, and I showed them the world of difference you can have when you start asking that question wholeheartedly, and getting real information that doesn't have anything to do with the words you asked, but is really focused on the meaning. You know, when I asked like, "Is it quiet?" You know, answers would come back like, "The wind whispered through the trees peacefully," and you know, it's like nothing to do with quiet in the literal word sense, but in the meaning sense, everything to do with it. And that that was magical even for them, to see that. >> Well you guys are the front end of this big wave. Congratulations on the startup, Amr. I know you guys got great pedigree in big data, and you've got a great team, and congratulations. Vectara is the name of the company, check 'em out. Again, the startup boom is coming. This will be one of the major waves, generative AI is here. I think we'll look back, and it will be pointed out as a major inflection point in the industry. >> Absolutely. >> There's not a lot of hype behind that. People are are seeing it, experts are. So it's going to be fun, thanks for watching. >> Thanks John. (soft music)

>> From the CUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from the Cube and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> A better than expected earnings report in late August got people excited about Snowflake again, but the negative sentiment in the market is weighed heavily on virtually all growth tech stocks and Snowflake is no exception. As we've stressed many times the company's management is on a long term mission to dramatically simplify the way organizations use data. Snowflake is tapping into a multi hundred billion dollar total available market and continues to grow at a rapid pace. In our view, Snowflake is embarking on its third major wave of innovation data apps, while its first and second waves are still bearing significant fruit. Now for short term traders focused on the next 90 or 180 days, that probably doesn't matter. But those taking a longer view are asking, "Should we still be optimistic about the future of this high flyer or is it just another over hyped tech play?" Hello and welcome to this week's Wiki Bond Cube Insights powered by ETR. Snowflake's Quarter just ended. And in this breaking analysis we take a look at the most recent survey data from ETR to see what clues and nuggets we can extract to predict the near term future in the long term outlook for Snowflake which is going to announce its earnings at the end of this month. Okay, so you know the story. If you've been investor in Snowflake this year, it's been painful. We said at IPO, "If you really want to own this stock on day one, just hold your nose and buy it." But like most IPOs we said there will be likely a better entry point in the future, and not surprisingly that's been the case. Snowflake IPOed a price of 120, which you couldn't touch on day one unless you got into a friends and family Delio. And if you did, you're still up 5% or so. So congratulations. But at one point last year you were up well over 200%. That's been the nature of this volatile stock, and I certainly can't help you with the timing of the market. But longer term Snowflake is targeting 10 billion in revenue for fiscal year 2028. A big number. Is it achievable? Is it big enough? Tell you what, let's come back to that. Now shorter term, our expert trader and breaking analysis contributor Chip Simonton said he got out of the stock a while ago after having taken a shot at what turned out to be a bear market rally. He pointed out that the stock had been bouncing around the 150 level for the last few months and broke that to the downside last Friday. So he'd expect 150 is where the stock is going to find resistance on the way back up, but there's no sign of support right now. He said maybe at 120, which was the July low and of course the IPO price that we just talked about. Now, perhaps earnings will be a catalyst, when Snowflake announces on November 30th, but until the mentality toward growth tech changes, nothing's likely to change dramatically according to Simonton. So now that we have that out of the way, let's take a look at the spending data for Snowflake in the ETR survey. Here's a chart that shows the time series breakdown of snowflake's net score going back to the October, 2021 survey. Now at that time, Snowflake's net score stood at a robust 77%. And remember, net score is a measure of spending velocity. It's a proprietary network, and ETR derives it from a quarterly survey of IT buyers and asks the respondents, "Are you adopting the platform new? Are you spending 6% or more? Is you're spending flat? Is you're spending down 6% or worse? Or are you leaving the platform decommissioning?" You subtract the percent of customers that are spending less or churning from those that are spending more and adopting or adopting and you get a net score. And that's expressed as a percentage of customers responding. In this chart we show Snowflake's in out of the total survey which ranges... The total survey ranges between 1,200 and 1,400 each quarter. And the very last column... Oh sorry, very last row, we show the number of Snowflake respondents that are coming in the survey from the Fortune 500 and the Global 2000. Those are two very important Snowflake constituencies. Now what this data tells us is that Snowflake exited 2021 with very strong momentum in a net score of 82%, which is off the charts and it was actually accelerating from the previous survey. Now by April that sentiment had flipped and Snowflake came down to earth with a 68% net score. Still highly elevated relative to its peers, but meaningfully down. Why was that? Because we saw a drop in new ads and an increase in flat spend. Then into the July and most recent October surveys, you saw a significant drop in the percentage of customers that were spending more. Now, notably, the percentage of customers who are contemplating adding the platform is actually staying pretty strong, but it is off a bit this past survey. And combined with a slight uptick in planned churn, net score is now down to 60%. That uptick from 0% and 1% and then 3%, it's still small, but that net score at 60% is still 20 percentage points higher than our highly elevated benchmark of 40% as you recall from listening to earlier breaking analysis. That 40% range is we consider a milestone. Anything above that is actually quite strong. But again, Snowflake is down and coming back to churn, while 3% churn is very low, in previous quarters we've seen Snowflake 0% or 1% decommissions. Now the last thing to note in this chart is the meaningful uptick in survey respondents that are citing, they're using the Snowflake platform. That's up to 212 in the survey. So look, it's hard to imagine that Snowflake doesn't feel the softening in the market like everyone else. Snowflake is guiding for around 60% growth in product revenue against the tough compare from a year ago with a 2% operating margin. So like every company, the reaction of the street is going to come down to how accurate or conservative the guide is from their CFO. Now, earlier this year, Snowflake acquired a company called Streamlit for around $800 million. Streamlit is an open source Python library and it makes it easier to build data apps with machine learning, obviously a huge trend. And like Snowflake, generally its focus is on simplifying the complex, in this case making data science easier to integrate into data apps that business people can use. So we were excited this summer in the July ETR survey to see that they added some nice data and pick on Streamlit, which we're showing here in comparison to Snowflake's core business on the left hand side. That's the data warehousing, the Streamlit pieces on the right hand side. And we show again net score over time from the previous survey for Snowflake's core database and data warehouse offering again on the left as compared to a Streamlit on the right. Snowflake's core product had 194 responses in the October, 22 survey, Streamlit had an end of 73, which is up from 52 in the July survey. So significant uptick of people responding that they're doing business in adopting Streamlit. That was pretty impressive to us. And it's hard to see, but the net scores stayed pretty constant for Streamlit at 51%. It was 52% I think in the previous quarter, well over that magic 40% mark. But when you blend it with Snowflake, it does sort of bring things down a little bit. Now there are two key points here. One is that the acquisition seems to have gained exposure right out of the gate as evidenced by the large number of responses. And two, the spending momentum. Again while it's lower than Snowflake overall, and when you blend it with Snowflake it does pull it down, it's very healthy and steady. Now let's do a little pure comparison with some of our favorite names in this space. This chart shows net score or spending velocity in the Y-axis, an overlap or presence, pervasiveness if you will, in the data set on the X-axis. That red dotted line again is that 40% highly elevated net score that we like to talk about. And that table inserted informs us as to how the companies are plotted, where the dots set up, the net score, the ins. And we're comparing a number of database players, although just a caution, Oracle includes all of Oracle including its apps. But we just put it in there for reference because it is the leader in database. Right off the bat, Snowflake jumps out with a net score of 64%. The 60% from the earlier chart, again included Streamlit. So you can see its core database, data warehouse business actually is higher than the total company average that we showed you before 'cause the Streamlit is blended in. So when you separate it out, Streamlit is right on top of data bricks. Isn't that ironic? Only Snowflake and Databricks in this selection of names are above the 40% level. You see Mongo and Couchbase, they know they're solid and Teradata cloud actually showing pretty well compared to some of the earlier survey results. Now let's isolate on the database data platform sector and see how that shapes up. And for this analysis, same XY dimensions, we've added the big giants, AWS and Microsoft and Google. And notice that those three plus Snowflake are just at or above the 40% line. Snowflake continues to lead by a significant margin in spending momentum and it keeps creeping to the right. That's that end that we talked about earlier. Now here's an interesting tidbit. Snowflake is often asked, and I've asked them myself many times, "How are you faring relative to AWS, Microsoft and Google, these big whales with Redshift and Synapse and Big Query?" And Snowflake has been telling folks that 80% of its business comes from AWS. And when Microsoft heard that, they said, "Whoa, wait a minute, Snowflake, let's partner up." 'Cause Microsoft is smart, and they understand that the market is enormous. And if they could do better with Snowflake, one, they may steal some business from AWS. And two, even if Snowflake is winning against some of the Microsoft database products, if it wins on Azure, Microsoft is going to sell more compute and more storage, more AI tools, more other stuff to these customers. Now AWS is really aggressive from a partnering standpoint with Snowflake. They're openly negotiating, not openly, but they're negotiating better prices. They're realizing that when it comes to data, the cheaper that you make the offering, the more people are going to consume. At scale economies and operating leverage are really powerful things at volume that kick in. Now Microsoft, they're coming along, they obviously get it, but Google is seemingly resistant to that type of go to market partnership. Rather than lean into Snowflake as a great partner Google's field force is kind of fighting fashion. Google itself at Cloud next heavily messaged what they call the open data cloud, which is a direct rip off of Snowflake. So what can we say about Google? They continue to be kind of behind the curve when it comes to go to market. Now just a brief aside on the competitive posture. I've seen Slootman, Frank Slootman, CEO of Snowflake in action with his prior companies and how he depositioned the competition. At Data Domain, he eviscerated a company called Avamar with their, what he called their expensive and slow post process architecture. I think he actually called it garbage, if I recall at one conference I heard him speak at. And that sort of destroyed BMC when he was at ServiceNow, kind of positioning them as the equivalent of the department of motor vehicles. And so it's interesting to hear how Snowflake openly talks about the data platforms of AWS, Microsoft, Google, and data bricks. I'll give you this sort of short bumper sticker. Redshift is just an on-prem database that AWS morphed to the cloud, which by the way is kind of true. They actually did a brilliant job of it, but it's basically a fact. Microsoft Excel, a collection of legacy databases, which also kind of morphed to run in the cloud. And even Big Query, which is considered cloud native by many if not most, is being positioned by Snowflake as originally an on-prem database to support Google's ad business, maybe. And data bricks is for those people smart enough to get it to Berkeley that love complexity. And now Snowflake doesn't, they don't mention Berkeley as far as I know. That's my addition. But you get the point. And the interesting thing about Databricks and Snowflake is a while ago in the cube I said that there was a new workload type emerging around data where you have AWS cloud, Snowflake obviously for the cloud database and Databricks data for the data science and EML, you bring those things together and there's this new workload emerging that's going to be very powerful in the future. And it's interesting to see now the aspirations of all three of these platforms are colliding. That's quite a dynamic, especially when you see both Snowflake and Databricks putting venture money and getting their hooks into the loyalties of the same companies like DBT labs and Calibra. Anyway, Snowflake's posture is that we are the pioneer in cloud native data warehouse, data sharing and now data apps. And our platform is designed for business people that want simplicity. The other guys, yes, they're formidable, but we Snowflake have an architectural lead and of course we run in multiple clouds. So it's pretty strong positioning or depositioning, you have to admit. Now I'm not sure I agree with the big query knockoffs completely. I think that's a bit of a stretch, but snowflake, as we see in the ETR survey data is winning. So in thinking about the longer term future, let's talk about what's different with Snowflake, where it's headed and what the opportunities are for the company. Snowflake put itself on the map by focusing on simplifying data analytics. What's interesting about that is the company's founders are as you probably know from Oracle. And rather than focusing on transactional data, which is Oracle's sweet spot, the stuff they worked on when they were at Oracle, the founder said, "We're going to go somewhere else. We're going to attack the data warehousing problem and the data analytics problem." And they completely re-imagined the database and how it could be applied to solve those challenges and reimagine what was possible if you had virtually unlimited compute and storage capacity. And of course Snowflake became famous for separating the compute from storage and being able to completely shut down compute so you didn't have to pay for it when you're not using it. And the ability to have multiple clusters hit the same data without making endless copies and a consumption/cloud pricing model. And then of course everyone on the planet realized, "Wow, that's a pretty good idea." Every venture capitalist in Silicon Valley has been funding companies to copy that move. And that today has pretty much become mainstream in table stakes. But I would argue that Snowflake not only had the lead, but when you look at how others are approaching this problem, it's not necessarily as clean and as elegant. Some of the startups, the early startups I think get it and maybe had an advantage of starting later, which can be a disadvantage too. But AWS is a good example of what I'm saying here. Is its version of separating compute from storage was an afterthought and it's good, it's... Given what they had it was actually quite clever and customers like it, but it's more of a, "Okay, we're going to tier to storage to lower cost, we're going to sort of dial down the compute not completely, we're not going to shut it off, we're going to minimize the compute required." It's really not true as separation is like for instance Snowflake has. But having said that, we're talking about competitors with lots of resources and cohort offerings. And so I don't want to make this necessarily all about the product, but all things being equal architecture matters, okay? So that's the cloud S-curve, the first one we're showing. Snowflake's still on that S-curve, and in and of itself it's got legs, but it's not what's going to power the company to 10 billion. The next S-curve we denote is the multi-cloud in the middle. And now while 80% of Snowflake's revenue is AWS, Microsoft is ramping up and Google, well, we'll see. But the interesting part of that curve is data sharing, and this idea of data clean rooms. I mean it really should be called the data sharing curve, but I have my reasons for calling it multi-cloud. And this is all about network effects and data gravity, and you're seeing this play out today, especially in industries like financial services and healthcare and government that are highly regulated verticals where folks are super paranoid about compliance. There not going to share data if they're going to get sued for it, if they're going to be in the front page of the Wall Street Journal for some kind of privacy breach. And what Snowflake has done is said, "Put all the data in our cloud." Now, of course now that triggers a lot of people because it's a walled garden, okay? It is. That's the trade off. It's not the Wild West, it's not Windows, it's Mac, it's more controlled. But the idea is that as different parts of the organization or even partners begin to share data that they need, it's got to be governed, it's got to be secure, it's got to be compliant, it's got to be trusted. So Snowflake introduced the idea of, they call these things stable edges. I think that's the term that they use. And they track a metric around stable edges. And so a stable edge, or think of it as a persistent edge is an ongoing relationship between two parties that last for some period of time, more than a month. It's not just a one shot deal, one a done type of, "Oh guys shared it for a day, done." It sent you an FTP, it's done. No, it's got to have trajectory over time. Four weeks or six weeks or some period of time that's meaningful. And that metric is growing. Now I think sort of a different metric that they track. I think around 20% of Snowflake customers are actively sharing data today and then they track the number of those edge relationships that exist. So that's something that's unique. Because again, most data sharing is all about making copies of data. That's great for storage companies, it's bad for auditors, and it's bad for compliance officers. And that trend is just starting out, that middle S-curve, it's going to kind of hit the base of that steep part of the S-curve and it's going to have legs through this decade we think. And then finally the third wave that we show here is what we call super cloud. That's why I called it multi-cloud before, so it could invoke super cloud. The idea that you've built a PAS layer that is purpose built for a specific objective, and in this case it's building data apps that are cloud native, shareable and governed. And is a long-term trend that's going to take some time to develop. I mean, application development platforms can take five to 10 years to mature and gain significant adoption, but this one's unique. This is a critical play for Snowflake. If it's going to compete with the big cloud players, it has to have an app development framework like Snowpark. It has to accommodate new data types like transactional data. That's why it announced this thing called UniStore last June, Snowflake a summit. And the pattern that's forming here is Snowflake is building layer upon layer with its architecture at the core. It's not currently anyway, it's not going out and saying, "All right, we're going to buy a company that's got to another billion dollars in revenue and that's how we're going to get to 10 billion." So it's not buying its way into new markets through revenue. It's actually buying smaller companies that can complement Snowflake and that it can turn into revenue for growth that fit in to the data cloud. Now as to the 10 billion by fiscal year 28, is that achievable? That's the question. Yeah, I think so. Would the momentum resources go to market product and management prowess that Snowflake has? Yes, it's definitely achievable. And one could argue to $10 billion is too conservative. Indeed, Snowflake CFO, Mike Scarpelli will fully admit his forecaster built on existing offerings. He's not including revenue as I understand it from all the new stuff that's in the pipeline because he doesn't know what it's going to look like. He doesn't know what the adoption is going to look like. He doesn't have data on that adoption, not just yet anyway. And now of course things can change quite dramatically. It's possible that is forecast for existing businesses don't materialize or competition picks them off or a company like Databricks actually is able in the longer term replicate the functionality of Snowflake with open source technologies, which would be a very competitive source of innovation. But in our view, there's plenty of room for growth, the market is enormous and the real key is, can and will Snowflake deliver on the promises of simplifying data? Of course we've heard this before from data warehouse, the data mars and data legs and master data management and ETLs and data movers and data copiers and Hadoop and a raft of technologies that have not lived up to expectations. And we've also, by the way, seen some tremendous successes in the software business with the likes of ServiceNow and Salesforce. So will Snowflake be the next great software name and hit that 10 billion magic mark? I think so. Let's reconnect in 2028 and see. Okay, we'll leave it there today. I want to thank Chip Simonton for his input to today's episode. Thanks to Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast. Ken Schiffman as well. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hove is our Editor in Chief over at Silicon Angle. He does some great editing for us. Check it out for all the news. Remember all these episodes are available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Or you can email me to get in touch David.vallante@siliconangle.com. DM me @dvellante or comment on our LinkedIn post. And please do check out etr.ai, they've got the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for the CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on breaking analysis. (upbeat music)

>>Hello and welcome to the Cube's coverage here at AWS Reinvent 2022. This is the Executive Summit with Accenture. I'm John Furry, your host of the Cube at two great guests coming on today, really talking about the future, the role of humans. Radically human is gonna be the topic. Paul Dardy, the group Chief Executive Technology and CTO at Accenture. And Jim Wilson, global managing director of thought Leadership and Technology research. Accenture. Gentlemen, thank you for coming on the cube for this conversation around your new hit book. Radically human. >>Thanks, John. It's great to, great to be with you and great, great to be present at reinvent. >>You know, we've been following you guys for many, many years now, over a decade. You always have the finger on the pulse. I mean, and as these waves come in, it's really important to understand impact. And more than ever, we're kind of in this, I call it the systems thinking, revolutions going on now where things have consequences and, and machines are now accelerating their role. Developers are becoming the front lines of running companies, seeing a massive shift. This new technology is transforming the business and shaping our future as, as humans. And so I love the book. Very, very strong content, really. Right on point. What was the motivation for the book? And congratulations. But, you know, I noticed you got the, the structure part one and part two, This book seems to be packing a big punch. What's, what was the motivation and, and what was some of the background in, in putting the book together? >>That's a great question, John, and I'll start, and then, you know, Jim, my co-author and, and part colleague and partner on this, on the book and join in too. You know, the, if you step back from the book itself, we'd written a first book called, you know, Human Plus Machine, which talked about the, you know, focused a lot on artificial intelligence and talked about the potential and future of artificial intelligence to create a more human future for us with the Human plus machine pairing. And then, you know, when we started, you know, working on the next book, Covid was, you know, it was kinda the Covid era. Covid came online as, as we were writing the book. And, but that was causing really an interesting time in technology for a lot of companies. I mean, think back to what you were doing, you know, once Covid hit, every company became more dependent on technology. >>Technology was the lifeline. And so Jim and I got interested in what the impacts of that were on companies ba, you know, and what was different from the first, you know, research we had done around our first book. And what we found, which was super interesting, is that, is that, you know, pre pandemic, the, the leading companies, the digital leaders that were applying cloud data, AI, and related technologies faster, we're outperforming others by a factor of two x. And that was before the pandemic. After the pandemic. We redid the research and the gap widen into five x. And I think that's, and, and that's kind of played a lot into our book. And we talk about that in the opening of our book. And the message message there is exactly what you said is technology is not just the lifeline, you know, from the pandemic, but now technology is the heart and soul of how companies are driving innovation, how they're responding to global crises around, you know, inflation energy, supply chain crisis because of the war in Ukraine, et cetera. >>And companies need the technology more than ever. And that's what we're writing about in, in Radically Human. And we're taking a step beyond our previous book to talk about what we believe is next. And it's really cloud data and ai and the metaverse that signal out is three trends that are really driving transformative change for companies. And the first part of the book, to your question on the structure, talks about the roadmap to that. We talked about the ideas framework, five areas where you need to change your thinking, flip your assumptions on how to apply technology. And then the second part of the book talks about the differentiators that we believe are gonna set companies apart as they look to, you know, to implement this technology and transform their companies for the future. >>Jim, weigh in on this. Flipping the script, flipping the assumptions. No, >>You, you, you used a really important word there, and that is systems. I think when we think about artificial intelligence, and when Paul and I have now talking to companies, a lot of executives think of AI as kind of a point solution. They don't think of about AI in terms of taking a systems approach. So we were trying to address that, all right, if you're gonna build a roadmap, a technology roadmap for applying intelligent technologies like artificial intelligence, how do you take a holistic systematic view? And that's really the, the focus of the first section of the book. And then as Paul mentioned, how do you take those systems and really differentiate using your talent, focusing on trust, experiences and sustainability. >>You know, I like this, I like how it reads. It's almost like a masterclass book because you kind of set the table. It's like, cuz people right now are like in the mode of, you know, what's going on around me. I'm been living through three years of covid. But coming out the other side, the world looks radically different. Humans are much more important. Automation's great, but people are finding out that the human's key, but people are trying to figure out where I am, where am I today. So I think the first part really to me hits home, like, here's the current situation and then part two is, here's how you can get better. And it's not just about machines, machines, machines and automation, automation, automation. We're seeing examples where the role of the human, the person in society, whether it's individually or as part of a group, are really now key assets in that kind of this new workforce or this new production system or you know, society. >>Yeah. And just to take a couple examples from the book and highlight that, I think you're exactly right. And that's where, you know, radically human, you know, the title came from. And you know, the, what's happening with technology is that technology itself is becoming more human like in its capability. When you think about the power of the transformer technologies and other things that we're reading about a lot and, and that, you know, the whole hypothesis, you know, or premise of the book I should say, is that the more humanlike the technology is, the more radically human or the more radical the, you know, the, the the, the human potential improvement is the more, the bigger the opportunity. It's pairing the two together rather than, as you said, just looking at the automation or the machine side of it. That's really the radical leap. And one thing Jim and I, you know, talk about, you know, talked about, you know, talked about in context of the book is companies really often haven't been radical enough in applying technology to really get to dramatic gains that they can get. >>Just a couple examples from the ideas framework, the eye and ideas is each of the, the ideas framework is the first part of the book, The five areas to flip your Assumptions, The eye stands for intelligence. And we're talking about more, more human and less artificial in terms of the intelligence techniques, things like common sense learning and other techniques that allow you to develop more powerful ways of engaging people, engaging humans in the systems that we build, using the kind of systems thinking that Jim mentioned. And you know, things like emotional ai, common sense ai, new techniques in addition to machine the big data driven machine learning techniques which are essential to vision and solving big problems like that. So that's, that's just an example of, you know, how you bring it together and enable that human potential. >>I love the, we've been, >>We've >>Go ahead Jim. >>I was gonna say we've been used to adapting to technology, you know, and you know, contorting our fingers to keyboards and and so on for a long time. And now we're starting to see that technology is in fact beginning to adapt to us and become more natural in many instances. One point that we make is now in the human technology nexus. In fact, the human is in the ascended. That's one of the, one of the big ideas that we try to put out there in this book. >>You know, I love the idea of flipping the script, flicking assumptions, but, but ideas framework is interesting. I for intelligence, D for data, E for expertise, A for architecture, s for strategy, notice the strategies last. Normally in the old school days, it's like, hey, strategy first and execution really kind of interesting kind of how you guys put that together. It kind of feels like business is becoming agile and iterative and it's how it's gonna be forming. Can you guys, I mean that's my opinion, but I think, you know, observing how developers becoming much more part of, of the app. I mean, if you take digital transformation to its conclusion, the application is the company, It's not a department serving the business, it is the business, therefore developers are running the business, so to speak. This is really radical. I mean, this is kind of how I'm seeing it. What's your reaction to that? Do you see similar parallels to this transformation? If you take it down to a conclusion, strategy is just what you do after you get the outcomes you need. Is that, can you, what's your reaction to that? >>Yeah, yeah, I think, I think one of the most lasting elements of the book might be that chapter on strategy in, in my opinion, because you need to think about it differently. The old, old way of doing strategy is dead. You can't do it the way you used to do it. And that's what we tried to, you know, to lay out with the, the essence ideas, you know, the strategy and the, the, the fun. You know, the, the subtitle that chapter is is we're all technology companies now. And if you're a technology driven company, the way you need to think about and every company is becoming, That's what I hear when I talk to these suites and CEOs and boards, is everybody's recognizing the essential world that technology plays and therefore they need to, to master technology, well, you need to think about strategy differently than because of the pace of technology innovation. >>And so you need to throw out the old way of doing it. We suggest three new archetypes of how to do strategy that I think are really report it's about continuous strategy in all cases. Yet an example is one of the techniques we talk about forever beta, which is, you know, think about a Tesla, you know, companies that, you know, it's never quite done. They're always improving and the product is designed to be connected and improving. So it changes along, you know, the product and the strategy along how you deploy it to consumers changes as you go. And that's an example of a very different approach to strategy that we, we believe is essential to consider as you look at the future. Yeah, those multi-month strategy sessions, you know, might play out over two or three quarters of going away. And strategy and execution are becoming almost simultaneous these days. As Paul was saying, >>It's interesting because that's the kind of the trend you're seeing with more data, more automation. But the human plays a much critical role. And, and just as a side on the Tesla example, you know, is well documented, I think I wrote about in a post just this week that during the model three Elon wanted full automation and had to actually go off script and get to humans back in charge cuz it wasn't working properly. Now they have a balance. But that brings up the, the part two, which I like, which is, you know, this human piece of it, you know, we always talk about skills gaps, there's not enough people to do this, that and the other thing. And talent was a big part of that, that second half, you know, trust, talent experiences, that's the more the person's role, either individually as part of a collective group is talent. The scarce resource now where that's the, that's the goal, that's the, the key because I mean, it all could point to that in a way, you know, skills gap kind of points to, hey, you know, humans are valuable, in fact the value's going up if it's properly architected. What's your reaction to that, guys? Because I think, you know, that's something that is not kind of nuance point, but it's a feature, not a bug maybe, I don't know. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, it's, go ahead Jim. I was gonna say it, you know, we're, we're dramatically underestimating the amount of focus we need to put on talent. That's why we start off that second part of the book. You know, really zooming in on talent. I think, you know, you might think that for every, you know, a hundred dollars that you put into a technology initiative, you know, you might put 50 or 75 into reskilling initiatives to really compliment that. But what we're seeing is companies need to be much more revolutionary in their focus on talent. We saw a, a economic analysis recently that pointed out that for every $1 you spend on technology, you are likely gonna need to spend about $9 on intangible human capital. That means, you know, on talent, on, on getting the best talent on reskilling and on changing processes and work tasks. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done. Really that's human focus. It's not just about adopting the technology. Certainly the technology's critical, but we're underestimating the amount of focus that needs to go into the talent factors. >>That's a huge point. >>I think some of the elements of talent that become really critical that we, we talked about in the book are, are becoming a talent creator. We believe that the successful companies of the future are gonna be able not, not just to post, you know, post a job opening and hire, hire people in because there's not gonna be enough. And a lot of the jobs that companies are creating don't exist, you know, cause the technology changing so fast. So companies that succeed are gonna know how to create talent, bring in people, apprentices and such and, and, and, you know, shape to tail as they go. We're doing a significant amount of that in our own company. They're gonna be learning based organizations where you'll differentiate, you'll get the best employees if you provide better learning environments because that's what you know, employees want. And then democratizing access to technology, You know, things like, you know, Amazon's honey code is an example, you know, low code, no code development to spread, you know, development to wider pools of people. Those types of things are really critical, you know, going forward to really unlock the talent potential. And really what you end up with is, yeah, the, the human talent's important, but it's magnified to multiplied by the power of people, you know, giving them in essence superpowers in using technology in new >>Ways. I think you nailed it, That's super important. That point about the force multiplier, when you put things in combination with it's group constructs, two pizza teams, flexing, leveraging the talent. I mean, this is kind of a new configuration. You guys are nailing it there. I love that piece. And I think, you know, groups and collectives, you're gonna start to see a lot more of that. But again, with talent comes trust when you start to have these kind of, you know, ephemeral and or forming groups that are forming production systems or, or, or experiences. So trust comes up a lot. You guys see the metaverse as an important part there. Obviously Metaverse is a pretext to the virtual world where we're gonna start to create these group experiences and create new force multipliers. How does the Metaverse play into this new radically human world and and what does it mean for the future of business? >>Yeah, I think the Metaverse is radically, you know, kind of misunderstood to use the word title, word of a, when we're not with the title of our book, you know, and we believe that the metaverse does have real big potential, massive potential, and I think it'll transform the way we think about digital more so than we've changed our thinking on digital in the last 10 years. So, you know, that that's the potential of the metaverse. And it's about, it's not just about the consumer things, it's about metaverse in the enterprise. It's about the new products you create using distributed ledger and other technologies. And it's about the industrial metaverse of how you bring digital twins and augmented workers online in different ways. And so I, I believe you know that it is, has tremendous potential. We write about that in the book and it really takes radically human to another level. >>And one way to think about this is cloud is really becoming the operating system of business. You, you have to build your enterprise around the cloud as you go forward that's gonna shape the way you do business. AI becomes the insight and intelligence in how you work, you know, in infused with, you know, the human talent and such as we said. And the metaverse then reshapes the experience layers. You have cloud AI building on top of this metaverse providing a new way to, to generate experiences for, for employees, citizens, consumers, et cetera. And that's the way it unfolds. But trust becomes more important because the, just as AI raises new questions around trust, you know, every technology raises new questions around trust. The metaverse raises a whole new set of questions. And in the book we outline a five part framework or or five, you know, essential, you know, parts of the framework around how you establish trust as you implement these new technologies. >>Yeah, we're seeing that, you know, about three quarters of companies are really trying to figure out trust, you know, certainly with issues like the metaverse more broadly across their it, so they're, you know, they're focusing on security and privacy transparency, especially when you're talking about AI systems. Explainability. One of the, you know, the more surprising things that we learned when doing the book, when we're doing the research is that we saw that increasingly consumers and employees want systems to be informed by kind of a sense of humanity. So one company that we've been looking at that's been developing autonomous vehicles, self-driving car systems, the, they're, they're actually training the system by emulating human behavior. So kind of turning the cameras on test drivers to see how they learn and then training the AI kind of using that sense of humanity cuz you know, the other drivers on the road find human behavior more trustworthy. And similarly, that system is also using explainable AI to actually show which human behaviors that that AI system is learning from or some really interesting innovations kind of happening in that trust space. John, >>Jim, I think you bring up a great point that's worth talking more about because you know, you're talking about how human behaviors are being put into the, the design of new things like machines or software. And we're living in this era of cloud scale, which is compressing this transformation timeline and you know, we've been calling it super cloud, some call it multicloud, but it's really a new thing happening where you're seeing an acceleration of the transformation. We think it's gonna happen much faster in the next five to 10 years. And so that means these new things are emerging, not just, hey, I'm running a virtual event with Chad and some video, you know, it's, it's group behavior, it's group con groups, convening, talking, getting things done, you know, debating doing things differently. And so this idea of humans informing design decisions or software with low code no code, this completely changes strategy. I mean this is a big point of the book. >>Yeah, no, I go back to, you know, one of the, the, the, the e and the ideas frameworks is expertise. And we talk about, you know, from machine learning to machine teaching, which, which is exactly that, you know, it's, you know, machine learning is, you know, maybe humans tag data and stuff and feed into algorithms. Machine teaching is how do you really leverage the human expertise in the systems that you develop with ai? One of the examples we give is one of the, the large consumer platforms that uses human designers to give the system a sense of aesthetic design and product design. A very difficult thing, especially with changing fashion interest and everything else to code in algorithms and to even have AI do, even if you have fast amounts of data, but with the right human insight and human expertise injected in, you can create, you know, amazing new capability that responds to consumers in a much more powerful way. And that's an example of what you just said, John, bringing the two together. >>Well you, what's interesting is that I wanna to get your thoughts as we can wrap up here soon. How do you apply all these human-centric technologies to the future of business? As you guys talk to leaders in, in the enterprise of their businesses, as they look at the horizon, they see the, the future, they gotta start thinking about things like generative AI and how they can bring some of these technologies to the table where, you know, we were, we were talking about if open source continues to grow the way it's going, there might not be any code to write, it just writes itself at some point. So you got supply chain issues with security. These are, these are new things you guys are hitting on this in the book where these are new dynamics, new power dynamics in how things get built. So if you're a business owner and leader, this is a new opportunity, a challenge, certainly that is an opportunity. How, how do you apply all this stuff for, for business >>Now? I'll go first then Jim Canad. But the, the first thing I think starts with, with recognizing the role that technology does play and investing accordingly in it. So the right, you know, technology, talent, you know, rethinking the way you do strategy as we talked about earlier and recognizing how you need to build a foundation. That's why, you know, the fact you're at reinvent is so important because companies are, you know, again rebuilding that, that operating system of their business in the cloud. And you need that, you know, as the foundation to go forward, to do, you know, to, to build the other, other types of capabilities. And then I think it's developing those talent systems as well. You know, do you, do you have the right the, do you have the right talent brand? Are you attacking the right, attracting the right employees? Are you developing them in the right way so that you have the right future talent going forward and then you marry the two together and that's what, you know, gives you the radically human formula. >>Yeah. When, you know, when we were developing that first part of the book, Paul and I did quite a bit of, of research, and this was ju and Paul kind of alluded to that research earlier, but one of the things that we saw in really the first year of the pandemic was that there was a lot of first time adoption of intelligent technologies like artificial intelligence. You know, one statistic is that 70% of, there was a, there was a of companies that had never tried AI before, went ahead and tried it during the pandemic. So first time adoption rates were way up, but the thing is companies are not, or we're not trying to do it themselves and to, you know, to necessarily, you know, build an it, a AI department. They were partnering and it's really important to, to find a partner, often a cloud partner as a way to get started, start small scale and then scale up doing experiments. So that was one of the, that was one of the key insights that we had. You don't need to do it all yourself. >>If you see the transformation of just aws, we're here at reinvent just since we've been covering the events since 2013, every year there's been kind of a thematic thing. It was, you know, startups, enterprise now builders and now, now change your company this year it's continuing that same thing where you're starting to see new things happen. It's not just lift and shift and, and running a SaaS application on the cloud. People are are changing and refactoring and replatforming, categorical applications in for this new era. And you know, we're calling it super cloud super services, super apps cuz they're different. They're doing different things in leveraging large scale CapEx, large scale talent pools or talent pools in certain ways. So this is real, something's happening here and you know, we've been talking about a lot lately, so I have to ask you guys, how does a company know if they're radical enough? Like when, what is radical? How do, how can I put a pin in that say that could take a temperature or we like radical enough what some tell signs can you guys share for companies that are really leaning into this new next inflection point because there are new things happening. How do you know if you're, you're you're pushing the envelope radical enough to, to take advantage? >>Yeah, I think one, yeah, I was gonna say one of the, one of the tests is is you know, the impact on your business. You have to start by looking at all this in the context of your business and is it really taking you to another level? You said it perfectly, John, it used to be we used to talk about migration and workloads to the cloud and things like that. Yeah. That that's still something you need to do. But now we, our focus, you know, with a lot of our customers is on how do you innovate and grow your business in the cloud? What's, what is, you know, how, how, what's the platform you know, that you're using to, you know, for your, the new digital products and services you're offering to your consumers. I mean it is the business and I think that's the test. Whether being radical, you know, radical enough is on the one hand, is this really, are you really using the technology to drive differentiation and real growth and change in your business? And are you equipping, you know, people, your human talent with the capabilities they need to perform in very different ways? And those are the the two tests that I would give. Totally agree. >>Yeah. You know, interesting enough, we, you know, we, we love this topic and guys, again, the book is spot on. Very packs a big punch on content, but very relevant in today. And I think, you know, one of the things we're looking at is that people who do things differently take advantage of some of these radical approaches like ideas your framework and understand where they are and what's available and what's coming around the corner. They stand out in the, in the pack or create new business opportunities because the CapEx is taken care of. Now you got your cloud, I mean some, you're building clouds on top of clouds or, or something's happening. You can, I think you see it like look at like companies like Snowflake, it's a data warehouse on the cloud. What does that mean? They didn't build a cloud, they used Amazon. So you're starting to see these new things pop up. >>Yeah, and that's a good example and it sounds like a simple thing, data warehouse in the cloud, but the new business capability that a technology like that allows the portability of being able to connect and use data across cloud environments and such is, is, is is tremendously powerful. And I think that's why, you know, you talk about companies doing things differently, that's why it's great again that you're at reinvents. If you look at the index of our book, you'll see, you'll see AWS mentioned a number of times cuz we tell a lot of cus of cus customer and company stories about how they're leveraging aws, AWS capabilities in cloud and AI to really do transformative things in your, in their business. And I, I think that's what it's, that's what it's all about. >>Yeah, and one of the things too in the book, it's great cuz it has kind of a, the systems thinking it's got really relevant information but you know, you guys have seen the, seen the movie before. I think one of the wild cards in this era is global. You know, we're global economy, you've got regions, you've got data sovereignty, you're seeing, you know, all kinds of new things, emerging thoughts on the global impact cuz you, you take your book and you overlay that to business. Like you gotta, you gotta operate all over the world as a human issue. It's a geography issue. What's your guys take on the global impact? >>Well that's, that's why the, the, you gotta think about cloud as as one technology, you know, we talked about in the book and cloud is a lot, I think a lot of people think, well clouds it's almost old news. Maybe it's been around for a while. As you said, you've been going to reinvent since 2013. You know, cloud is really just getting, you know, just getting started. And, and it's cuz the reasons you said, when you look at what you need to do around sovereign cloud capability, if you're in Europe for many companies it's about multi-cloud capabilities. You need to deploy, you know, differently in different, in different regions. And they need to, in some cases for good reason, they have hybrid, hybrid cloud, you know, capability that they, they match on their own. And then there's the edge capability which is comes into play in, in different ways. >>And, and so the architecture becomes very complex and we talk the A in and ideas is architecture. We talk about all this and how you need to move from the old conception of architecture, which was more static and mod and you know, just modularity was kind of the key thing you thought about. It's more the idea of a living system, of living architecture that's, that's expanding and is what's much more dynamic. And I think that's the way you need to think about it as you manage in a global environment today with the, with the pace of technology advancement. >>You know, the innovation is here. It's not stopping. How do you create some defacto standards while not stunting the innovation is gonna be a big discussion as these new flipped assumptions start to generate more activity. It's gonna be very interesting to watch. Gentlemen, thank you so much for spending the time here on the queue as we break down your new book, Radically Human and how it, how business leads can flip the script on their business assumptions and put ideas and access to work. This is a big part of the cloud show at reinvent. Thanks so much for, for sharing and congratulations on a great book. >>You know, Thanks John. And just one point I'd add is that one of the, the things we do talk about in talent is the need to reskill talent. You know, people who need to, you know, be, be relevant to the rapidly changing future. And that's one area where I think we all as institutions, as communities and individuals need to do more is to help those who need to reskilling. And the final point I mentioned is that we mentioned at the end of the book that all proceeds for the book are being donated to not NGOs and nonprofits that are focused on reskilling. Those who need a skill refresh in light of the radically human new, you know, change in technology that's happening >>Great by the book proceeds go to a great cause and it's a very relevant book if you're in the middle of this big way that's coming. This is a great book. There's a guidepost and also give you some great ideas to, to reset re flip the scripts. Refactor, re-platform. Guys, thanks for coming on and sharing, really appreciate it. Again, congratulations. >>Thanks, John. John, great discussion. >>Okay, you're watching the Cube here, covering the executive forum here at AWS Reinvent 22. I'm John Furrier, your host with aen. Thanks for watching.

>>Collibra is a company that was founded in 2008 right before the so-called modern big data era kicked into high gear. The company was one of the first to focus its business on data governance. Now, historically, data governance and data quality initiatives, they were back office functions and they were largely confined to regulatory regulated industries that had to comply with public policy mandates. But as the cloud went mainstream, the tech giants showed us how valuable data could become and the value proposition for data quality and trust. It evolved from primarily a compliance driven issue to becoming a lynchpin of competitive advantage. But data in the decade of the 2010s was largely about getting the technology to work. You had these highly centralized technical teams that were formed and they had hyper specialized skills to develop data architectures and processes to serve the myriad data needs of organizations. >>And it resulted in a lot of frustration with data initiatives for most organizations that didn't have the resources of the cloud guys and the social media giants to really attack their data problems and turn data into gold. This is why today for example, this quite a bit of momentum to rethinking monolithic data architectures. You see, you hear about initiatives like data mesh and the idea of data as a product. They're gaining traction as a way to better serve the the data needs of decentralized business Uni users, you hear a lot about data democratization. So these decentralization efforts around data, they're great, but they create a new set of problems. Specifically, how do you deliver like a self-service infrastructure to business users and domain experts? Now the cloud is definitely helping with that, but also how do you automate governance? This becomes especially tricky as protecting data privacy has become more and more important. >>In other words, while it's enticing to experiment and run fast and loose with data initiatives kinda like the Wild West, to find new veins of gold, it has to be done responsibly. As such, the idea of data governance has had to evolve to become more automated. And intelligence governance and data lineage is still fundamental to ensuring trust as data. It moves like water through an organization. No one is gonna use data that isn't trusted. Metadata has become increasingly important for data discovery and data classification. As data flows through an organization, the continuously ability to check for data flaws and automating that data quality, they become a functional requirement of any modern data management platform. And finally, data privacy has become a critical adjacency to cyber security. So you can see how data governance has evolved into a much richer set of capabilities than it was 10 or 15 years ago. >>Hello and welcome to the Cube's coverage of Data Citizens made possible by Calibra, a leader in so-called Data intelligence and the host of Data Citizens 2022, which is taking place in San Diego. My name is Dave Ante and I'm one of the hosts of our program, which is running in parallel to data citizens. Now at the Cube we like to say we extract the signal from the noise, and over the, the next couple of days, we're gonna feature some of the themes from the keynote speakers at Data Citizens and we'll hear from several of the executives. Felix Von Dala, who is the co-founder and CEO of Collibra, will join us along with one of the other founders of Collibra, Stan Christians, who's gonna join my colleague Lisa Martin. I'm gonna also sit down with Laura Sellers, she's the Chief Product Officer at Collibra. We'll talk about some of the, the announcements and innovations they're making at the event, and then we'll dig in further to data quality with Kirk Hasselbeck. >>He's the vice president of Data quality at Collibra. He's an amazingly smart dude who founded Owl dq, a company that he sold to Col to Collibra last year. Now many companies, they didn't make it through the Hado era, you know, they missed the industry waves and they became Driftwood. Collibra, on the other hand, has evolved its business. They've leveraged the cloud, expanded its product portfolio, and leaned in heavily to some major partnerships with cloud providers, as well as receiving a strategic investment from Snowflake earlier this year. So it's a really interesting story that we're thrilled to be sharing with you. Thanks for watching and I hope you enjoy the program. >>Last year, the Cube Covered Data Citizens Collibra's customer event. And the premise that we put forth prior to that event was that despite all the innovation that's gone on over the last decade or more with data, you know, starting with the Hado movement, we had data lakes, we'd spark the ascendancy of programming languages like Python, the introduction of frameworks like TensorFlow, the rise of ai, low code, no code, et cetera. Businesses still find it's too difficult to get more value from their data initiatives. And we said at the time, you know, maybe it's time to rethink data innovation. While a lot of the effort has been focused on, you know, more efficiently storing and processing data, perhaps more energy needs to go into thinking about the people and the process side of the equation, meaning making it easier for domain experts to both gain insights for data, trust the data, and begin to use that data in new ways, fueling data, products, monetization and insights data citizens 2022 is back and we're pleased to have Felix Van Dema, who is the founder and CEO of Collibra. He's on the cube or excited to have you, Felix. Good to see you again. >>Likewise Dave. Thanks for having me again. >>You bet. All right, we're gonna get the update from Felix on the current data landscape, how he sees it, why data intelligence is more important now than ever and get current on what Collibra has been up to over the past year and what's changed since Data Citizens 2021. And we may even touch on some of the product news. So Felix, we're living in a very different world today with businesses and consumers. They're struggling with things like supply chains, uncertain economic trends, and we're not just snapping back to the 2010s. That's clear, and that's really true as well in the world of data. So what's different in your mind, in the data landscape of the 2020s from the previous decade, and what challenges does that bring for your customers? >>Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think you said it well, Dave, and and the intro that that rising complexity and fragmentation in the broader data landscape, that hasn't gotten any better over the last couple of years. When when we talk to our customers, that level of fragmentation, the complexity, how do we find data that we can trust, that we know we can use has only gotten kinda more, more difficult. So that trend that's continuing, I think what is changing is that trend has become much more acute. Well, the other thing we've seen over the last couple of years is that the level of scrutiny that organizations are under respect to data, as data becomes more mission critical, as data becomes more impactful than important, the level of scrutiny with respect to privacy, security, regulatory compliance, as only increasing as well, which again, is really difficult in this environment of continuous innovation, continuous change, continuous growing complexity and fragmentation. >>So it's become much more acute. And, and to your earlier point, we do live in a different world and and the the past couple of years we could probably just kind of brute for it, right? We could focus on, on the top line. There was enough kind of investments to be, to be had. I think nowadays organizations are focused or are, are, are, are, are, are in a very different environment where there's much more focus on cost control, productivity, efficiency, How do we truly get value from that data? So again, I think it just another incentive for organization to now truly look at data and to scale it data, not just from a a technology and infrastructure perspective, but how do you actually scale data from an organizational perspective, right? You said at the the people and process, how do we do that at scale? And that's only, only only becoming much more important. And we do believe that the, the economic environment that we find ourselves in today is gonna be catalyst for organizations to really dig out more seriously if, if, if, if you will, than they maybe have in the have in the best. >>You know, I don't know when you guys founded Collibra, if, if you had a sense as to how complicated it was gonna get, but you've been on a mission to really address these problems from the beginning. How would you describe your, your, your mission and what are you doing to address these challenges? >>Yeah, absolutely. We, we started Colli in 2008. So in some sense and the, the last kind of financial crisis, and that was really the, the start of Colli where we found product market fit, working with large finance institutions to help them cope with the increasing compliance requirements that they were faced with because of the, of the financial crisis and kind of here we are again in a very different environment, of course 15 years, almost 15 years later. But data only becoming more important. But our mission to deliver trusted data for every user, every use case and across every source, frankly, has only become more important. So what has been an incredible journey over the last 14, 15 years, I think we're still relatively early in our mission to again, be able to provide everyone, and that's why we call it data citizens. We truly believe that everyone in the organization should be able to use trusted data in an easy, easy matter. That mission is is only becoming more important, more relevant. We definitely have a lot more work ahead of us because we are still relatively early in that, in that journey. >>Well, that's interesting because, you know, in my observation it takes seven to 10 years to actually build a company and then the fact that you're still in the early days is kind of interesting. I mean, you, Collibra's had a good 12 months or so since we last spoke at Data Citizens. Give us the latest update on your business. What do people need to know about your, your current momentum? >>Yeah, absolutely. Again, there's, there's a lot of tail organizations that are only maturing the data practices and we've seen it kind of transform or, or, or influence a lot of our business growth that we've seen, broader adoption of the platform. We work at some of the largest organizations in the world where it's Adobe, Heineken, Bank of America, and many more. We have now over 600 enterprise customers, all industry leaders and every single vertical. So it's, it's really exciting to see that and continue to partner with those organizations. On the partnership side, again, a lot of momentum in the org in, in the, in the markets with some of the cloud partners like Google, Amazon, Snowflake, data bricks and, and others, right? As those kind of new modern data infrastructures, modern data architectures that are definitely all moving to the cloud, a great opportunity for us, our partners and of course our customers to help them kind of transition to the cloud even faster. >>And so we see a lot of excitement and momentum there within an acquisition about 18 months ago around data quality, data observability, which we believe is an enormous opportunity. Of course, data quality isn't new, but I think there's a lot of reasons why we're so excited about quality and observability now. One is around leveraging ai, machine learning, again to drive more automation. And the second is that those data pipelines that are now being created in the cloud, in these modern data architecture arch architectures, they've become mission critical. They've become real time. And so monitoring, observing those data pipelines continuously has become absolutely critical so that they're really excited about about that as well. And on the organizational side, I'm sure you've heard a term around kind of data mesh, something that's gaining a lot of momentum, rightfully so. It's really the type of governance that we always believe. Then federated focused on domains, giving a lot of ownership to different teams. I think that's the way to scale data organizations. And so that aligns really well with our vision and, and from a product perspective, we've seen a lot of momentum with our customers there as well. >>Yeah, you know, a couple things there. I mean, the acquisition of i l dq, you know, Kirk Hasselbeck and, and their team, it's interesting, you know, the whole data quality used to be this back office function and, and really confined to highly regulated industries. It's come to the front office, it's top of mind for chief data officers, data mesh. You mentioned you guys are a connective tissue for all these different nodes on the data mesh. That's key. And of course we see you at all the shows. You're, you're a critical part of many ecosystems and you're developing your own ecosystem. So let's chat a little bit about the, the products. We're gonna go deeper in into products later on at, at Data Citizens 22, but we know you're debuting some, some new innovations, you know, whether it's, you know, the, the the under the covers in security, sort of making data more accessible for people just dealing with workflows and processes as you talked about earlier. Tell us a little bit about what you're introducing. >>Yeah, absolutely. We're super excited, a ton of innovation. And if we think about the big theme and like, like I said, we're still relatively early in this, in this journey towards kind of that mission of data intelligence that really bolts and compelling mission, either customers are still start, are just starting on that, on that journey. We wanna make it as easy as possible for the, for our organization to actually get started because we know that's important that they do. And for our organization and customers that have been with us for some time, there's still a tremendous amount of opportunity to kind of expand the platform further. And again, to make it easier for really to, to accomplish that mission and vision around that data citizen that everyone has access to trustworthy data in a very easy, easy way. So that's really the theme of a lot of the innovation that we're driving. >>A lot of kind of ease of adoption, ease of use, but also then how do we make sure that lio becomes this kind of mission critical enterprise platform from a security performance architecture scale supportability that we're truly able to deliver that kind of an enterprise mission critical platform. And so that's the big theme from an innovation perspective, From a product perspective, a lot of new innovation that we're really excited about. A couple of highlights. One is around data marketplace. Again, a lot of our customers have plans in that direction, how to make it easy. How do we make, how do we make available to true kind of shopping experience that anybody in your organization can, in a very easy search first way, find the right data product, find the right dataset, that data can then consume usage analytics. How do you, how do we help organizations drive adoption, tell them where they're working really well and where they have opportunities homepages again to, to make things easy for, for people, for anyone in your organization to kind of get started with ppia, you mentioned workflow designer, again, we have a very powerful enterprise platform. >>One of our key differentiators is the ability to really drive a lot of automation through workflows. And now we provided a new low code, no code kind of workflow designer experience. So, so really customers can take it to the next level. There's a lot more new product around K Bear Protect, which in partnership with Snowflake, which has been a strategic investor in kib, focused on how do we make access governance easier? How do we, how do we, how are we able to make sure that as you move to the cloud, things like access management, masking around sensitive data, PII data is managed as much more effective, effective rate, really excited about that product. There's more around data quality. Again, how do we, how do we get that deployed as easily and quickly and widely as we can? Moving that to the cloud has been a big part of our strategy. >>So we launch more data quality cloud product as well as making use of those, those native compute capabilities in platforms like Snowflake, Data, Bricks, Google, Amazon, and others. And so we are bettering a capability, a capability that we call push down. So actually pushing down the computer and data quality, the monitoring into the underlying platform, which again, from a scale performance and ease of use perspective is gonna make a massive difference. And then more broadly, we, we talked a little bit about the ecosystem. Again, integrations, we talk about being able to connect to every source. Integrations are absolutely critical and we're really excited to deliver new integrations with Snowflake, Azure and Google Cloud storage as well. So there's a lot coming out. The, the team has been work at work really hard and we are really, really excited about what we are coming, what we're bringing to markets. >>Yeah, a lot going on there. I wonder if you could give us your, your closing thoughts. I mean, you, you talked about, you know, the marketplace, you know, you think about data mesh, you think of data as product, one of the key principles you think about monetization. This is really different than what we've been used to in data, which is just getting the technology to work has been been so hard. So how do you see sort of the future and, you know, give us the, your closing thoughts please? >>Yeah, absolutely. And I, and I think we we're really at this pivotal moment, and I think you said it well. We, we all know the constraint and the challenges with data, how to actually do data at scale. And while we've seen a ton of innovation on the infrastructure side, we fundamentally believe that just getting a faster database is important, but it's not gonna fully solve the challenges and truly kind of deliver on the opportunity. And that's why now is really the time to deliver this data intelligence vision, this data intelligence platform. We are still early, making it as easy as we can. It's kind of, of our, it's our mission. And so I'm really, really excited to see what we, what we are gonna, how the marks gonna evolve over the next, next few quarters and years. I think the trend is clearly there when we talk about data mesh, this kind of federated approach folks on data products is just another signal that we believe that a lot of our organization are now at the time. >>The understanding need to go beyond just the technology. I really, really think about how do we actually scale data as a business function, just like we've done with it, with, with hr, with, with sales and marketing, with finance. That's how we need to think about data. I think now is the time given the economic environment that we are in much more focus on control, much more focused on productivity efficiency and now's the time. We need to look beyond just the technology and infrastructure to think of how to scale data, how to manage data at scale. >>Yeah, it's a new era. The next 10 years of data won't be like the last, as I always say. Felix, thanks so much and good luck in, in San Diego. I know you're gonna crush it out there. >>Thank you Dave. >>Yeah, it's a great spot for an in-person event and, and of course the content post event is gonna be available@collibra.com and you can of course catch the cube coverage@thecube.net and all the news@siliconangle.com. This is Dave Valante for the cube, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. >>Hi, I'm Jay from Collibra's Data Office. Today I want to talk to you about Collibra's data intelligence cloud. We often say Collibra is a single system of engagement for all of your data. Now, when I say data, I mean data in the broadest sense of the word, including reference and metadata. Think of metrics, reports, APIs, systems, policies, and even business processes that produce or consume data. Now, the beauty of this platform is that it ensures all of your users have an easy way to find, understand, trust, and access data. But how do you get started? Well, here are seven steps to help you get going. One, start with the data. What's data intelligence? Without data leverage the Collibra data catalog to automatically profile and classify your enterprise data wherever that data lives, databases, data lakes or data warehouses, whether on the cloud or on premise. >>Two, you'll then wanna organize the data and you'll do that with data communities. This can be by department, find a business or functional team, however your organization organizes work and accountability. And for that you'll establish community owners, communities, make it easy for people to navigate through the platform, find the data and will help create a sense of belonging for users. An important and related side note here, we find it's typical in many organizations that data is thought of is just an asset and IT and data offices are viewed as the owners of it and who are really the central teams performing analytics as a service provider to the enterprise. We believe data is more than an asset, it's a true product that can be converted to value. And that also means establishing business ownership of data where that strategy and ROI come together with subject matter expertise. >>Okay, three. Next, back to those communities there, the data owners should explain and define their data, not just the tables and columns, but also the related business terms, metrics and KPIs. These objects we call these assets are typically organized into business glossaries and data dictionaries. I definitely recommend starting with the topics that are most important to the business. Four, those steps that enable you and your users to have some fun with it. Linking everything together builds your knowledge graph and also known as a metadata graph by linking or relating these assets together. For example, a data set to a KPI to a report now enables your users to see what we call the lineage diagram that visualizes where the data in your dashboards actually came from and what the data means and who's responsible for it. Speaking of which, here's five. Leverage the calibra trusted business reporting solution on the marketplace, which comes with workflows for those owners to certify their reports, KPIs, and data sets. >>This helps them force their trust in their data. Six, easy to navigate dashboards or landing pages right in your platform for your company's business processes are the most effective way for everyone to better understand and take action on data. Here's a pro tip, use the dashboard design kit on the marketplace to help you build compelling dashboards. Finally, seven, promote the value of this to your users and be sure to schedule enablement office hours and new employee onboarding sessions to get folks excited about what you've built and implemented. Better yet, invite all of those community and data owners to these sessions so that they can show off the value that they've created. Those are my seven tips to get going with Collibra. I hope these have been useful. For more information, be sure to visit collibra.com. >>Welcome to the Cube's coverage of Data Citizens 2022 Collibra's customer event. My name is Dave Valante. With us is Kirk Hasselbeck, who's the vice president of Data Quality of Collibra Kirk, good to see you. Welcome. >>Thanks for having me, Dave. Excited to be here. >>You bet. Okay, we're gonna discuss data quality observability. It's a hot trend right now. You founded a data quality company, OWL dq, and it was acquired by Collibra last year. Congratulations. And now you lead data quality at Collibra. So we're hearing a lot about data quality right now. Why is it such a priority? Take us through your thoughts on that. >>Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's definitely exciting times for data quality, which you're right, has been around for a long time. So why now and why is it so much more exciting than it used to be? I think it's a bit stale, but we all know that companies use more data than ever before and the variety has changed and the volume has grown. And, and while I think that remains true, there are a couple other hidden factors at play that everyone's so interested in as, as to why this is becoming so important now. And, and I guess you could kind of break this down simply and think about if Dave, you and I were gonna build, you know, a new healthcare application and monitor the heartbeat of individuals, imagine if we get that wrong, you know, what the ramifications could be, what, what those incidents would look like, or maybe better yet, we try to build a, a new trading algorithm with a crossover strategy where the 50 day crosses the, the 10 day average. >>And imagine if the data underlying the inputs to that is incorrect. We will probably have major financial ramifications in that sense. So, you know, it kind of starts there where everybody's realizing that we're all data companies and if we are using bad data, we're likely making incorrect business decisions. But I think there's kind of two other things at play. You know, I, I bought a car not too long ago and my dad called and said, How many cylinders does it have? And I realized in that moment, you know, I might have failed him because, cause I didn't know. And, and I used to ask those types of questions about any lock brakes and cylinders and, and you know, if it's manual or, or automatic and, and I realized I now just buy a car that I hope works. And it's so complicated with all the computer chips, I, I really don't know that much about it. >>And, and that's what's happening with data. We're just loading so much of it. And it's so complex that the way companies consume them in the IT function is that they bring in a lot of data and then they syndicate it out to the business. And it turns out that the, the individuals loading and consuming all of this data for the company actually may not know that much about the data itself, and that's not even their job anymore. So we'll talk more about that in a minute, but that's really what's setting the foreground for this observability play and why everybody's so interested. It, it's because we're becoming less close to the intricacies of the data and we just expect it to always be there and be correct. >>You know, the other thing too about data quality, and for years we did the MIT CDO IQ event, we didn't do it last year, Covid messed everything up. But the observation I would make there thoughts is, is it data quality? Used to be information quality used to be this back office function, and then it became sort of front office with financial services and government and healthcare, these highly regulated industries. And then the whole chief data officer thing happened and people were realizing, well, they sort of flipped the bit from sort of a data as a, a risk to data as a, as an asset. And now as we say, we're gonna talk about observability. And so it's really become front and center just the whole quality issue because data's so fundamental, hasn't it? >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, let's imagine we pull up our phones right now and I go to my, my favorite stock ticker app and I check out the NASDAQ market cap. I really have no idea if that's the correct number. I know it's a number, it looks large, it's in a numeric field. And, and that's kind of what's going on. There's, there's so many numbers and they're coming from all of these different sources and data providers and they're getting consumed and passed along. But there isn't really a way to tactically put controls on every number and metric across every field we plan to monitor, but with the scale that we've achieved in early days, even before calibra. And what's been so exciting is we have these types of observation techniques, these data monitors that can actually track past performance of every field at scale. And why that's so interesting and why I think the CDO is, is listening right intently nowadays to this topic is, so maybe we could surface all of these problems with the right solution of data observability and with the right scale and then just be alerted on breaking trends. So we're sort of shifting away from this world of must write a condition and then when that condition breaks, that was always known as a break record. But what about breaking trends and root cause analysis? And is it possible to do that, you know, with less human intervention? And so I think most people are seeing now that it's going to have to be a software tool and a computer system. It's, it's not ever going to be based on one or two domain experts anymore. >>So, So how does data observability relate to data quality? Are they sort of two sides of the same coin? Are they, are they cousins? What's your perspective on that? >>Yeah, it's, it's super interesting. It's an emerging market. So the language is changing a lot of the topic and areas changing the way that I like to say it or break it down because the, the lingo is constantly moving is, you know, as a target on this space is really breaking records versus breaking trends. And I could write a condition when this thing happens, it's wrong and when it doesn't it's correct. Or I could look for a trend and I'll give you a good example. You know, everybody's talking about fresh data and stale data and, and why would that matter? Well, if your data never arrived or only part of it arrived or didn't arrive on time, it's likely stale and there will not be a condition that you could write that would show you all the good in the bads. That was kind of your, your traditional approach of data quality break records. But your modern day approach is you lost a significant portion of your data, or it did not arrive on time to make that decision accurately on time. And that's a hidden concern. Some people call this freshness, we call it stale data, but it all points to the same idea of the thing that you're observing may not be a data quality condition anymore. It may be a breakdown in the data pipeline. And with thousands of data pipelines in play for every company out there there, there's more than a couple of these happening every day. >>So what's the Collibra angle on all this stuff made the acquisition, you got data quality observability coming together, you guys have a lot of expertise in, in this area, but you hear providence of data, you just talked about, you know, stale data, you know, the, the whole trend toward real time. How is Calibra approaching the problem and what's unique about your approach? >>Well, I think where we're fortunate is with our background, myself and team, we sort of lived this problem for a long time, you know, in, in the Wall Street days about a decade ago. And we saw it from many different angles. And what we came up with before it was called data observability or reliability was basically the, the underpinnings of that. So we're a little bit ahead of the curve there when most people evaluate our solution, it's more advanced than some of the observation techniques that that currently exist. But we've also always covered data quality and we believe that people want to know more, they need more insights, and they want to see break records and breaking trends together so they can correlate the root cause. And we hear that all the time. I have so many things going wrong, just show me the big picture, help me find the thing that if I were to fix it today would make the most impact. So we're really focused on root cause analysis, business impact, connecting it with lineage and catalog metadata. And as that grows, you can actually achieve total data governance at this point with the acquisition of what was a Lineage company years ago, and then my company Ldq now Collibra, Data quality Collibra may be the best positioned for total data governance and intelligence in the space. >>Well, you mentioned financial services a couple of times and some examples, remember the flash crash in 2010. Nobody had any idea what that was, you know, they just said, Oh, it's a glitch, you know, so they didn't understand the root cause of it. So this is a really interesting topic to me. So we know at Data Citizens 22 that you're announcing, you gotta announce new products, right? You're yearly event what's, what's new. Give us a sense as to what products are coming out, but specifically around data quality and observability. >>Absolutely. There's this, you know, there's always a next thing on the forefront. And the one right now is these hyperscalers in the cloud. So you have databases like Snowflake and Big Query and Data Bricks is Delta Lake and SQL Pushdown. And ultimately what that means is a lot of people are storing in loading data even faster in a SaaS like model. And we've started to hook in to these databases. And while we've always worked with the the same databases in the past, they're supported today we're doing something called Native Database pushdown, where the entire compute and data activity happens in the database. And why that is so interesting and powerful now is everyone's concerned with something called Egress. Did your, my data that I've spent all this time and money with my security team securing ever leave my hands, did it ever leave my secure VPC as they call it? >>And with these native integrations that we're building and about to unveil, here's kind of a sneak peek for, for next week at Data Citizens. We're now doing all compute and data operations in databases like Snowflake. And what that means is with no install and no configuration, you could log into the Collibra data quality app and have all of your data quality running inside the database that you've probably already picked as your your go forward team selection secured database of choice. So we're really excited about that. And I think if you look at the whole landscape of network cost, egress, cost, data storage and compute, what people are realizing is it's extremely efficient to do it in the way that we're about to release here next week. >>So this is interesting because what you just described, you know, you mentioned Snowflake, you mentioned Google, Oh actually you mentioned yeah, data bricks. You know, Snowflake has the data cloud. If you put everything in the data cloud, okay, you're cool, but then Google's got the open data cloud. If you heard, you know, Google next and now data bricks doesn't call it the data cloud, but they have like the open source data cloud. So you have all these different approaches and there's really no way up until now I'm, I'm hearing to, to really understand the relationships between all those and have confidence across, you know, it's like Jak Dani, you should just be a note on the mesh. And I don't care if it's a data warehouse or a data lake or where it comes from, but it's a point on that mesh and I need tooling to be able to have confidence that my data is governed and has the proper lineage, providence. And, and, and that's what you're bringing to the table, Is that right? Did I get that right? >>Yeah, that's right. And it's, for us, it's, it's not that we haven't been working with those great cloud databases, but it's the fact that we can send them the instructions now, we can send them the, the operating ability to crunch all of the calculations, the governance, the quality, and get the answers. And what that's doing, it's basically zero network costs, zero egress cost, zero latency of time. And so when you were to log into Big Query tomorrow using our tool or like, or say Snowflake for example, you have instant data quality metrics, instant profiling, instant lineage and access privacy controls, things of that nature that just become less onerous. What we're seeing is there's so much technology out there, just like all of the major brands that you mentioned, but how do we make it easier? The future is about less clicks, faster time to value, faster scale, and eventually lower cost. And, and we think that this positions us to be the leader there. >>I love this example because, you know, Barry talks about, wow, the cloud guys are gonna own the world and, and of course now we're seeing that the ecosystem is finding so much white space to add value, connect across cloud. Sometimes we call it super cloud and so, or inter clouding. All right, Kirk, give us your, your final thoughts and on on the trends that we've talked about and Data Citizens 22. >>Absolutely. Well, I think, you know, one big trend is discovery and classification. Seeing that across the board, people used to know it was a zip code and nowadays with the amount of data that's out there, they wanna know where everything is, where their sensitive data is. If it's redundant, tell me everything inside of three to five seconds. And with that comes, they want to know in all of these hyperscale databases how fast they can get controls and insights out of their tools. So I think we're gonna see more one click solutions, more SAS based solutions and solutions that hopefully prove faster time to value on, on all of these modern cloud platforms. >>Excellent. All right, Kurt Hasselbeck, thanks so much for coming on the Cube and previewing Data Citizens 22. Appreciate it. >>Thanks for having me, Dave. >>You're welcome. Right, and thank you for watching. Keep it right there for more coverage from the Cube. Welcome to the Cube's virtual Coverage of Data Citizens 2022. My name is Dave Valante and I'm here with Laura Sellers, who's the Chief Product Officer at Collibra, the host of Data Citizens. Laura, welcome. Good to see you. >>Thank you. Nice to be here. >>Yeah, your keynote at Data Citizens this year focused on, you know, your mission to drive ease of use and scale. Now when I think about historically fast access to the right data at the right time in a form that's really easily consumable, it's been kind of challenging, especially for business users. Can can you explain to our audience why this matters so much and what's actually different today in the data ecosystem to make this a reality? >>Yeah, definitely. So I think what we really need and what I hear from customers every single day is that we need a new approach to data management and our product teams. What inspired me to come to Calibra a little bit a over a year ago was really the fact that they're very focused on bringing trusted data to more users across more sources for more use cases. And so as we look at what we're announcing with these innovations of ease of use and scale, it's really about making teams more productive in getting started with and the ability to manage data across the entire organization. So we've been very focused on richer experiences, a broader ecosystem of partners, as well as a platform that delivers performance, scale and security that our users and teams need and demand. So as we look at, Oh, go ahead. >>I was gonna say, you know, when I look back at like the last 10 years, it was all about getting the technology to work and it was just so complicated. But, but please carry on. I'd love to hear more about this. >>Yeah, I, I really, you know, Collibra is a system of engagement for data and we really are working on bringing that entire system of engagement to life for everyone to leverage here and now. So what we're announcing from our ease of use side of the world is first our data marketplace. This is the ability for all users to discover and access data quickly and easily shop for it, if you will. The next thing that we're also introducing is the new homepage. It's really about the ability to drive adoption and have users find data more quickly. And then the two more areas of the ease of use side of the world is our world of usage analytics. And one of the big pushes and passions we have at Collibra is to help with this data driven culture that all companies are trying to create. And also helping with data literacy, with something like usage analytics, it's really about driving adoption of the CLE platform, understanding what's working, who's accessing it, what's not. And then finally we're also introducing what's called workflow designer. And we love our workflows at Libra, it's a big differentiator to be able to automate business processes. The designer is really about a way for more people to be able to create those workflows, collaborate on those workflow flows, as well as people to be able to easily interact with them. So a lot of exciting things when it comes to ease of use to make it easier for all users to find data. >>Y yes, there's definitely a lot to unpack there. I I, you know, you mentioned this idea of, of of, of shopping for the data. That's interesting to me. Why this analogy, metaphor or analogy, I always get those confused. I let's go with analogy. Why is it so important to data consumers? >>I think when you look at the world of data, and I talked about this system of engagement, it's really about making it more accessible to the masses. And what users are used to is a shopping experience like your Amazon, if you will. And so having a consumer grade experience where users can quickly go in and find the data, trust that data, understand where the data's coming from, and then be able to quickly access it, is the idea of being able to shop for it, just making it as simple as possible and really speeding the time to value for any of the business analysts, data analysts out there. >>Yeah, I think when you, you, you see a lot of discussion about rethinking data architectures, putting data in the hands of the users and business people, decentralized data and of course that's awesome. I love that. But of course then you have to have self-service infrastructure and you have to have governance. And those are really challenging. And I think so many organizations, they're facing adoption challenges, you know, when it comes to enabling teams generally, especially domain experts to adopt new data technologies, you know, like the, the tech comes fast and furious. You got all these open source projects and get really confusing. Of course it risks security, governance and all that good stuff. You got all this jargon. So where do you see, you know, the friction in adopting new data technologies? What's your point of view and how can organizations overcome these challenges? >>You're, you're dead on. There's so much technology and there's so much to stay on top of, which is part of the friction, right? It's just being able to stay ahead of, of and understand all the technologies that are coming. You also look at as there's so many more sources of data and people are migrating data to the cloud and they're migrating to new sources. Where the friction comes is really that ability to understand where the data came from, where it's moving to, and then also to be able to put the access controls on top of it. So people are only getting access to the data that they should be getting access to. So one of the other things we're announcing with, with all of the innovations that are coming is what we're doing around performance and scale. So with all of the data movement, with all of the data that's out there, the first thing we're launching in the world of performance and scale is our world of data quality. >>It's something that Collibra has been working on for the past year and a half, but we're launching the ability to have data quality in the cloud. So it's currently an on-premise offering, but we'll now be able to carry that over into the cloud for us to manage that way. We're also introducing the ability to push down data quality into Snowflake. So this is, again, one of those challenges is making sure that that data that you have is d is is high quality as you move forward. And so really another, we're just reducing friction. You already have Snowflake stood up. It's not another machine for you to manage, it's just push down capabilities into Snowflake to be able to track that quality. Another thing that we're launching with that is what we call Collibra Protect. And this is that ability for users to be able to ingest metadata, understand where the PII data is, and then set policies up on top of it. So very quickly be able to set policies and have them enforced at the data level. So anybody in the organization is only getting access to the data they should have access to. >>Here's Topica data quality is interesting. It's something that I've followed for a number of years. It used to be a back office function, you know, and really confined only to highly regulated industries like financial services and healthcare and government. You know, you look back over a decade ago, you didn't have this worry about personal information, g gdpr, and, you know, California Consumer Privacy Act all becomes, becomes so much important. The cloud is really changed things in terms of performance and scale and of course partnering for, for, with Snowflake it's all about sharing data and monetization, anything but a back office function. So it was kind of smart that you guys were early on and of course attracting them and as a, as an investor as well was very strong validation. What can you tell us about the nature of the relationship with Snowflake and specifically inter interested in sort of joint engineering or, and product innovation efforts, you know, beyond the standard go to market stuff? >>Definitely. So you mentioned there were a strategic investor in Calibra about a year ago. A little less than that I guess. We've been working with them though for over a year really tightly with their product and engineering teams to make sure that Collibra is adding real value. Our unified platform is touching pieces of our unified platform or touching all pieces of Snowflake. And when I say that, what I mean is we're first, you know, able to ingest data with Snowflake, which, which has always existed. We're able to profile and classify that data we're announcing with Calibra Protect this week that you're now able to create those policies on top of Snowflake and have them enforce. So again, people can get more value out of their snowflake more quickly as far as time to value with, with our policies for all business users to be able to create. >>We're also announcing Snowflake Lineage 2.0. So this is the ability to take stored procedures in Snowflake and understand the lineage of where did the data come from, how was it transformed with within Snowflake as well as the data quality. Pushdown, as I mentioned, data quality, you brought it up. It is a new, it is a, a big industry push and you know, one of the things I think Gartner mentioned is people are losing up to $15 million without having great data quality. So this push down capability for Snowflake really is again, a big ease of use push for us at Collibra of that ability to, to push it into snowflake, take advantage of the data, the data source, and the engine that already lives there and get the right and make sure you have the right quality. >>I mean, the nice thing about Snowflake, if you play in the Snowflake sandbox, you, you, you, you can get sort of a, you know, high degree of confidence that the data sharing can be done in a safe way. Bringing, you know, Collibra into the, into the story allows me to have that data quality and, and that governance that I, that I need. You know, we've said many times on the cube that one of the notable differences in cloud this decade versus last decade, I mean ob there are obvious differences just in terms of scale and scope, but it's shaping up to be about the strength of the ecosystems. That's really a hallmark of these big cloud players. I mean they're, it's a key factor for innovating, accelerating product delivery, filling gaps in, in the hyperscale offerings cuz you got more stack, you know, mature stack capabilities and you know, it creates this flywheel momentum as we often say. But, so my question is, how do you work with the hyperscalers? Like whether it's AWS or Google, whomever, and what do you see as your role and what's the Collibra sweet spot? >>Yeah, definitely. So, you know, one of the things I mentioned early on is the broader ecosystem of partners is what it's all about. And so we have that strong partnership with Snowflake. We also are doing more with Google around, you know, GCP and kbra protect there, but also tighter data plex integration. So similar to what you've seen with our strategic moves around Snowflake and, and really covering the broad ecosystem of what Collibra can do on top of that data source. We're extending that to the world of Google as well and the world of data plex. We also have great partners in SI's Infosys is somebody we spoke with at the conference who's done a lot of great work with Levi's as they're really important to help people with their whole data strategy and driving that data driven culture and, and Collibra being the core of it. >>Hi Laura, we're gonna, we're gonna end it there, but I wonder if you could kind of put a bow on, you know, this year, the event your, your perspectives. So just give us your closing thoughts. >>Yeah, definitely. So I, I wanna say this is one of the biggest releases Collibra's ever had. Definitely the biggest one since I've been with the company a little over a year. We have all these great new product innovations coming to really drive the ease of use to make data more valuable for users everywhere and, and companies everywhere. And so it's all about everybody being able to easily find, understand, and trust and get access to that data going forward. >>Well congratulations on all the pro progress. It was great to have you on the cube first time I believe, and really appreciate you, you taking the time with us. >>Yes, thank you for your time. >>You're very welcome. Okay, you're watching the coverage of Data Citizens 2022 on the cube, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. >>So data modernization oftentimes means moving some of your storage and computer to the cloud where you get the benefit of scale and security and so on. But ultimately it doesn't take away the silos that you have. We have more locations, more tools and more processes with which we try to get value from this data. To do that at scale in an organization, people involved in this process, they have to understand each other. So you need to unite those people across those tools, processes, and systems with a shared language. When I say customer, do you understand the same thing as you hearing customer? Are we counting them in the same way so that shared language unites us and that gives the opportunity for the organization as a whole to get the maximum value out of their data assets and then they can democratize data so everyone can properly use that shared language to find, understand, and trust the data asset that's available. >>And that's where Collibra comes in. We provide a centralized system of engagement that works across all of those locations and combines all of those different user types across the whole business. At Collibra, we say United by data and that also means that we're united by data with our customers. So here is some data about some of our customers. There was the case of an online do it yourself platform who grew their revenue almost three times from a marketing campaign that provided the right product in the right hands of the right people. In other case that comes to mind is from a financial services organization who saved over 800 K every year because they were able to reuse the same data in different kinds of reports and before there was spread out over different tools and processes and silos, and now the platform brought them together so they realized, oh, we're actually using the same data, let's find a way to make this more efficient. And the last example that comes to mind is that of a large home loan, home mortgage, mortgage loan provider where they have a very complex landscape, a very complex architecture legacy in the cloud, et cetera. And they're using our software, they're using our platform to unite all the people and those processes and tools to get a common view of data to manage their compliance at scale. >>Hey everyone, I'm Lisa Martin covering Data Citizens 22, brought to you by Collibra. This next conversation is gonna focus on the importance of data culture. One of our Cube alumni is back, Stan Christians is Collibra's co-founder and it's Chief Data citizens. Stan, it's great to have you back on the cube. >>Hey Lisa, nice to be. >>So we're gonna be talking about the importance of data culture, data intelligence, maturity, all those great things. When we think about the data revolution that every business is going through, you know, it's so much more than technology innovation. It also really re requires cultural transformation, community transformation. Those are challenging for customers to undertake. Talk to us about what you mean by data citizenship and the role that creating a data culture plays in that journey. >>Right. So as you know, our event is called Data Citizens because we believe that in the end, a data citizen is anyone who uses data to do their job. And we believe that today's organizations, you have a lot of people, most of the employees in an organization are somehow gonna to be a data citizen, right? So you need to make sure that these people are aware of it. You need that. People have skills and competencies to do with data what necessary and that's on, all right? So what does it mean to have a good data culture? It means that if you're building a beautiful dashboard to try and convince your boss, we need to make this decision that your boss is also open to and able to interpret, you know, the data presented in dashboard to actually make that decision and take that action. Right? >>And once you have that why to the organization, that's when you have a good data culture. Now that's continuous effort for most organizations because they're always moving, somehow they're hiring new people and it has to be continuous effort because we've seen that on the hand. Organizations continue challenged their data sources and where all the data is flowing, right? Which in itself creates a lot of risk. But also on the other set hand of the equation, you have the benefit. You know, you might look at regulatory drivers like, we have to do this, right? But it's, it's much better right now to consider the competitive drivers, for example, and we did an IDC study earlier this year, quite interesting. I can recommend anyone to it. And one of the conclusions they found as they surveyed over a thousand people across organizations worldwide is that the ones who are higher in maturity. >>So the, the organizations that really look at data as an asset, look at data as a product and actively try to be better at it, don't have three times as good a business outcome as the ones who are lower on the maturity scale, right? So you can say, ok, I'm doing this, you know, data culture for everyone, awakening them up as data citizens. I'm doing this for competitive reasons, I'm doing this re reasons you're trying to bring both of those together and the ones that get data intelligence right, are successful and competitive. That's, and that's what we're seeing out there in the market. >>Absolutely. We know that just generally stand right, the organizations that are, are really creating a, a data culture and enabling everybody within the organization to become data citizens are, We know that in theory they're more competitive, they're more successful. But the IDC study that you just mentioned demonstrates they're three times more successful and competitive than their peers. Talk about how Collibra advises customers to create that community, that culture of data when it might be challenging for an organization to adapt culturally. >>Of course, of course it's difficult for an organization to adapt but it's also necessary, as you just said, imagine that, you know, you're a modern day organization, laptops, what have you, you're not using those, right? Or you know, you're delivering them throughout organization, but not enabling your colleagues to actually do something with that asset. Same thing as through with data today, right? If you're not properly using the data asset and competitors are, they're gonna to get more advantage. So as to how you get this done, establish this. There's angles to look at, Lisa. So one angle is obviously the leadership whereby whoever is the boss of data in the organization, you typically have multiple bosses there, like achieve data officers. Sometimes there's, there's multiple, but they may have a different title, right? So I'm just gonna summarize it as a data leader for a second. >>So whoever that is, they need to make sure that there's a clear vision, a clear strategy for data. And that strategy needs to include the monetization aspect. How are you going to get value from data? Yes. Now that's one part because then you can leadership in the organization and also the business value. And that's important. Cause those people, their job in essence really is to make everyone in the organization think about data as an asset. And I think that's the second part of the equation of getting that right, is it's not enough to just have that leadership out there, but you also have to get the hearts and minds of the data champions across the organization. You, I really have to win them over. And if you have those two combined and obviously a good technology to, you know, connect those people and have them execute on their responsibilities such as a data intelligence platform like s then the in place to really start upgrading that culture inch by inch if you'll, >>Yes, I like that. The recipe for success. So you are the co-founder of Collibra. You've worn many different hats along this journey. Now you're building Collibra's own data office. I like how before we went live, we were talking about Calibra is drinking its own champagne. I always loved to hear stories about that. You're speaking at Data Citizens 2022. Talk to us about how you are building a data culture within Collibra and what maybe some of the specific projects are that Collibra's data office is working on. >>Yes, and it is indeed data citizens. There are a ton of speaks here, are very excited. You know, we have Barb from m MIT speaking about data monetization. We have Dilla at the last minute. So really exciting agen agenda. Can't wait to get back out there essentially. So over the years at, we've doing this since two and eight, so a good years and I think we have another decade of work ahead in the market, just to be very clear. Data is here to stick around as are we. And myself, you know, when you start a company, we were for people in a, if you, so everybody's wearing all sorts of hat at time. But over the years I've run, you know, presales that sales partnerships, product cetera. And as our company got a little bit biggish, we're now thousand two. Something like people in the company. >>I believe systems and processes become a lot important. So we said you CBRA isn't the size our customers we're getting there in of organization structure, process systems, et cetera. So we said it's really time for us to put our money where is and to our own data office, which is what we were seeing customers', organizations worldwide. And they organizations have HR units, they have a finance unit and over time they'll all have a department if you'll, that is responsible somehow for the data. So we said, ok, let's try to set an examples that other people can take away with it, right? Can take away from it. So we set up a data strategy, we started building data products, took care of the data infrastructure. That's sort of good stuff. And in doing all of that, ISA exactly as you said, we said, okay, we need to also use our product and our own practices and from that use, learn how we can make the product better, learn how we make, can make the practice better and share that learning with all the, and on, on the Monday mornings, we sometimes refer to eating our dog foods on Friday evenings. >>We referred to that drinking our own champagne. I like it. So we, we had a, we had the driver to do this. You know, there's a clear business reason. So we involved, we included that in the data strategy and that's a little bit of our origin. Now how, how do we organize this? We have three pillars, and by no means is this a template that everyone should, this is just the organization that works at our company, but it can serve as an inspiration. So we have a pillar, which is data science. The data product builders, if you'll or the people who help the business build data products. We have the data engineers who help keep the lights on for that data platform to make sure that the products, the data products can run, the data can flow and you know, the quality can be checked. >>And then we have a data intelligence or data governance builders where we have those data governance, data intelligence stakeholders who help the business as a sort of data partner to the business stakeholders. So that's how we've organized it. And then we started following the CBRA approach, which is, well, what are the challenges that our business stakeholders have in hr, finance, sales, marketing all over? And how can data help overcome those challenges? And from those use cases, we then just started to build a map and started execution use of the use case. And a important ones are very simple. We them with our, our customers as well, people talking about the cata, right? The catalog for the data scientists to know what's in their data lake, for example, and for the people in and privacy. So they have their process registry and they can see how the data flows. >>So that's a starting place and that turns into a marketplace so that if new analysts and data citizens join kbra, they immediately have a place to go to, to look at, see, ok, what data is out there for me as an analyst or a data scientist or whatever to do my job, right? So they can immediately get access data. And another one that we is around trusted business. We're seeing that since, you know, self-service BI allowed everyone to make beautiful dashboards, you know, pie, pie charts. I always, my pet pee is the pie chart because I love buy and you shouldn't always be using pie charts. But essentially there's become proliferation of those reports. And now executives don't really know, okay, should I trust this report or that report the reporting on the same thing. But the numbers seem different, right? So that's why we have trusted this reporting. So we know if a, the dashboard, a data product essentially is built, we not that all the right steps are being followed and that whoever is consuming that can be quite confident in the result either, Right. And that silver browser, right? Absolutely >>Decay. >>Exactly. Yes, >>Absolutely. Talk a little bit about some of the, the key performance indicators that you're using to measure the success of the data office. What are some of those KPIs? >>KPIs and measuring is a big topic in the, in the data chief data officer profession, I would say, and again, it always varies with to your organization, but there's a few that we use that might be of interest. Use those pillars, right? And we have metrics across those pillars. So for example, a pillar on the data engineering side is gonna be more related to that uptime, right? Are the, is the data platform up and running? Are the data products up and running? Is the quality in them good enough? Is it going up? Is it going down? What's the usage? But also, and especially if you're in the cloud and if consumption's a big thing, you have metrics around cost, for example, right? So that's one set of examples. Another one is around the data sciences and products. Are people using them? Are they getting value from it? >>Can we calculate that value in ay perspective, right? Yeah. So that we can to the rest of the business continue to say we're tracking all those numbers and those numbers indicate that value is generated and how much value estimated in that region. And then you have some data intelligence, data governance metrics, which is, for example, you have a number of domains in a data mesh. People talk about being the owner of a data domain, for example, like product or, or customer. So how many of those domains do you have covered? How many of them are already part of the program? How many of them have owners assigned? How well are these owners organized, executing on their responsibilities? How many tickets are open closed? How many data products are built according to process? And so and so forth. So these are an set of examples of, of KPIs. There's a, there's a lot more, but hopefully those can already inspire the audience. >>Absolutely. So we've, we've talked about the rise cheap data offices, it's only accelerating. You mentioned this is like a 10 year journey. So if you were to look into a crystal ball, what do you see in terms of the maturation of data offices over the next decade? >>So we, we've seen indeed the, the role sort of grow up, I think in, in thousand 10 there may have been like 10 achieve data officers or something. Gartner has exact numbers on them, but then they grew, you know, industries and the number is estimated to be about 20,000 right now. Wow. And they evolved in a sort of stack of competencies, defensive data strategy, because the first chief data officers were more regulatory driven, offensive data strategy support for the digital program. And now all about data products, right? So as a data leader, you now need all of those competences and need to include them in, in your strategy. >>How is that going to evolve for the next couple of years? I wish I had one of those balls, right? But essentially I think for the next couple of years there's gonna be a lot of people, you know, still moving along with those four levels of the stack. A lot of people I see are still in version one and version two of the chief data. So you'll see over the years that's gonna evolve more digital and more data products. So for next years, my, my prediction is it's all products because it's an immediate link between data and, and the essentially, right? Right. So that's gonna be important and quite likely a new, some new things will be added on, which nobody can predict yet. But we'll see those pop up in a few years. I think there's gonna be a continued challenge for the chief officer role to become a real executive role as opposed to, you know, somebody who claims that they're executive, but then they're not, right? >>So the real reporting level into the board, into the CEO for example, will continue to be a challenging point. But the ones who do get that done will be the ones that are successful and the ones who get that will the ones that do it on the basis of data monetization, right? Connecting value to the data and making that value clear to all the data citizens in the organization, right? And in that sense, they'll need to have both, you know, technical audiences and non-technical audiences aligned of course. And they'll need to focus on adoption. Again, it's not enough to just have your data office be involved in this. It's really important that you're waking up data citizens across the organization and you make everyone in the organization think about data as an asset. >>Absolutely. Because there's so much value that can be extracted. Organizations really strategically build that data office and democratize access across all those data citizens. Stan, this is an exciting arena. We're definitely gonna keep our eyes on this. Sounds like a lot of evolution and maturation coming from the data office perspective. From the data citizen perspective. And as the data show that you mentioned in that IDC study, you mentioned Gartner as well, organizations have so much more likelihood of being successful and being competitive. So we're gonna watch this space. Stan, thank you so much for joining me on the cube at Data Citizens 22. We appreciate it. >>Thanks for having me over >>From Data Citizens 22, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching The Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. >>Okay, this concludes our coverage of Data Citizens 2022, brought to you by Collibra. Remember, all these videos are available on demand@thecube.net. And don't forget to check out silicon angle.com for all the news and wiki bod.com for our weekly breaking analysis series where we cover many data topics and share survey research from our partner ETR Enterprise Technology Research. If you want more information on the products announced at Data Citizens, go to collibra.com. There are tons of resources there. You'll find analyst reports, product demos. It's really worthwhile to check those out. Thanks for watching our program and digging into Data Citizens 2022 on the Cube, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. We'll see you soon.

>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage here in Seattle for AWS marketplace seller conference, the combination of the Amazon partner network, combined with the marketplace from the AWS partner organization, the APO and John Forer host of the queue, bringing you all the action and what it all means. Our next guest is Trisha kata, Malva, chief strategy officer at DataRobot. Great to have you. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you, John. Great to be here. >>So DataRobot obviously in the big data business data is the big theme here. A lot of companies are in the marketplace selling data solutions. I just ran into snowflake person. I ran into another data analyst company, lot of, lot of data everywhere. You're seeing security. You're seeing insights a lot more going on with data than ever before. It's one of the most popular categories in the marketplace. Talk about DataRobot what you guys are doing. What's your product in there? Yeah, >>Absolutely. John. So we are an artificial intelligence machine learning platform company. We have been around for 10 years. This is this year marks our 10th anniversary and we provide a platform for data scientists and also citizen data scientists. So essentially wanna be data scientists on the business side to rapidly experiment with data and to get insights and then productionize ML models. So the 100% workflow that goes into identifying the data that you need for machine learning and then building models on top of that and operationalizing a, >>How big is the company, roughly employee count? What's the number in >>General general, about a thousand employees. And we have customers all over the world. Our biggest verticals are financial services, insurance, manufacturing, healthcare pharma, all the highly regulated, as well as our tech presence is also growing. And we have people spread across multiple geographies and I can't disclose a customer number, but needless to say, we have hundreds of customers across the >>World. A lot of customers. Yeah, yeah. You guys are well known in the industry have been following some of the recent news lately as well. Yeah. Obviously data's exploding. What in the marketplace are you guys offering? What's the pitch, someone hits the marketplace that wants to buy DataRobot what's the pitch. >>The pitch is if you're looking to get real value from your data science, personal investments and your data, then you have DataRobot that you can download from your AWS marketplace. You can do a free trial and essentially get from, get value from data in a matter of minutes and not months or quarters, that's generally associated with IML. And after that, if you want to purchase you, it's a private offer on, in the marketplace. So you need to call DataRobot representative, but AWS marketplace offers a fantastic distribution channel for us. >>Yeah. I mean, one of the things I heard Chris say, who's now heading up the marketplace and the partner network was the streamlining, a lot of the benefits for the sellers and for the buyers to have a great experience buyers. Clearly we see this as a macro trend, that's gonna only get stronger in terms of self-service buying bundling, having the console on AWS for low level services like infrastructure. But now you've got other business applications that like analytics applies to. You're seeing that work. Now he said things like than the keynote, I wanna get your reaction to like, we're gonna make this more like a C I C D pipeline. We're gonna have more native services built into AWS. What that means to me is that sounds like, oh, if I have a solution, like DataRobot, that can be more native into AWS level services. How do you see that working out for you guys is that play well for your strategy and your customers? What's the, what's the what's resonating with the >>Customers. It plays extremely well with the strategy. So I call this as a win, win, win strategy, win for DataRobot win for customers and win for AWS, which is our partner. And it's a win for DataRobot because the amount of people, the number of eyeballs that look at AWS marketplace, a significantly higher than, than the doors that we can go knock on. So it's a distribution multiplier for us. And the integration into AWS services that you're talking about. It is very important because in this day and age, we need to be interoperable with cloud player services that they offer, whether it is with SageMaker or Redshift, we support all of those. And it's a win for customers because customers, it is a very important growing buyer persona for DataRobot. Yeah. And they already have pre-committed spend with AWS and they can use the, those spend dollars for DataRobot to procure DataRobot. So it eases their procurement life cycle as >>Well. It's a forced multiplier on, on the revenue side, correct? I mean, as well as, as on the business front cost of sales, go down the cost of order dollar. Correct. This is good. Goodness. >>It's it's definitely sorry, just to finish my thought on the win for the partner for AWS. It's great win for them because they're getting the consumption from the partner side, to your point on the force multiplier. Absolutely. It is a force multiplier on the revenue side, and it's great for customers and us, because for us, we have seen that the deal size increases when there is the cloud commit that we can draw down for, for our customers, the procurement cycle shortens. And also we have multiple constituencies within the customers working together in a very seamless fashion. >>How has the procurement going through AWS helped your customers? What specific things are you seeing that are popping out as benefits to the customer? >>So from a procurement standpoint, we, we are early in our marketplace journey. We got listed about a year ago, but the amount of revenue that has gone through marketplace is pretty significant at DataRobot. We experienced like just in, by, I think this quarter until this quarter, we got like about 20 to 30 transactions that went through AWS marketplace. And that is significant within just a year of us operating on the marketplace. And the procurement becomes easier for our customers. Yeah. Because they trust AWS and we can put our legal paperwork through the AWS machine as well, which we haven't done yet. But if we do that, that'll be a further force multiplier because that's the, the less friction there is. >>I like how you say that it's a machine. Yeah. And if you think about the benefits too, like one of the things that I see happening, and I love to get your thoughts because I think this is what's happening here. Infrastructure services, I get that IAS done hardware I'm oversimplifying, but all the, all the goodness, but as customers have business apps and vertical market solutions, you got more AI involved. You need more data that's specialized for that use case. Or you need a business application. Those, you don't hear words like let's provision that app. I mean, your provision hardware and, and infrastructure, but the, the new net cloud native is that you provision turn on the apps. So you're seeing the wave of building apps are composing Lego blocks, if you will. So it seems like the customers are starting to assemble the solution, almost like deploying a service, correct. And just pressing a button. And it happens. This seems to be where the, the business apps are going. >>Yeah, absolutely. You agree for us? We are, we are a data science platform and for us being very close to the data that the customers have is very important. And where if, if the customer's data is in Redshift, we are close to there. So being very close to the hyperscale or ecosystem in that entire C I C D pipeline, and also the data platform pipeline is very important. >>You know, what's interesting is, is the data is such a big part of, I mean, DevOps infrastructure has code has been the movement for decade. Yeah. So throw security in there. It's dev SecOps. Yeah. That is the developer now. Yeah. They're running essentially what used to be it now the new ops is security and data. Yeah. You see, in those teams really level up to be highly high velocity data meshes, semantic layer. These are words I'm hearing in the industry around the big waves of data, having this mesh. Yeah. Having it connected. So you're starting to see data availability become more pervasive. And, and we see this as a way that's powering this next gen data science revolution where it's like the business person is now the data science person. >>That's exactly. That is, that is what DataRobot does the best. We were founded with the vision that we wanted to democratize the access to AI within enterprises. It shouldn't be restricted to a small group of people don't get me wrong. Data scientists also love DataRobot. They use DataRobot. But the mission is to enhance many, many hundreds of people within an organization to use data science, like how you use Tableau on a regular basis, how you use Microsoft Excel on a regular basis. We want to democratize AI. And when you want to democratize AI, you need to democratize access to data, which is, which could be stored in data marketplaces, which could be stored in data warehouses and push all the intelligence that we grab from that data into the E R P into the apps layer. Because at the end of the day, business users, customers consume predictions through applications layer. >>You know, it's interesting, you mentioned that comment about, you know, trying not to, to offend data scientists, it's actually a rising tide that the tsunami of data is actually making that population bigger too. Right. So correct. You also have data engineering, which has come out of the woodwork. We covered a lot on the cube, which is, you know, we call data as code. So infrastructure as code kind of a spoof on that. But the reality is that there's a lot more data engineering. I call that the smallest population. Those are the, those are the alphas, the alpha geeks. Yeah. Hardcore data operating systems, kind of education, data science, big pool growing. And then the users yeah. Are the new data science practitioners. Correct? Exactly. So kind of a, the landscape is you see that picture too, right? >>For sure. I mean, we, we have presence in all of those, right? Like data engineers are very important. Data scientists. Those are core users of DataRobot like, how can you develop thousands and hundreds of thousands of models without having to hand code? If you have to hand code, it takes months and years to solve one problem for one customer in one location. I mean, see how fast the microeconomic conditions are moving. And data engineers are very important because at the end of the day, yes, you do. You create the model, but you need to operationalize that model. You need to monitor that model for data drift. You need to monitor how the model is performing and you need to productionize the insights that you gain. And for that engineering effort is very important behind the scenes. Yeah. And the users at the end of the day, they are the ones who consume the predictions. >>Yeah. I mean the volume and, and the scale and scope of the data requires a lot of automation as well. Correct. Cause you had that on top of it. You gotta have a platform that's gonna do the heavy lifting. >>Correct. Exactly. The platform is we call it as an augmented platform. It augments data scientists by eliminating the tedious work that they don't want to do in their everyday life, which some of which is like feature engineering, right? It's a very high value add work. However, it takes like multiple iterations to understand which features in your data actually impact the outcome. >>This is where the SAS platform is a service is evolved and we call that super cloud, right. This new model where people can scale it out and up. So horizontally, scalable cloud, but vertically integrated into the applications. It's an integrator dilemma. Not so much correct innovators dilemma, as we say in the queue. Yeah. So I have to ask you, I'm a, I'm a buyer I'm gonna come to the marketplace. I want DataRobot why should they buy DataRobot what's in it for them? What's the key features of DataRobot for a company to hit the subscribe, buy button. >>Absolutely. Do you want to scale your data science to multiple projects? Do you want to be ahead of your competition? Do you want to make AI real? That is our pitch. We are not about doing data science for the sake of data science. We are about generating business value out of data science. And we have done it for hundreds of customers in multiple different verticals across the world, whether it is investment banks or regional banks or insurance companies or healthcare companies, we have provided real value out of data for them. And we have the knowhow in how to solve, whether it is your supply chain, forecasting, problem, demand, forecasting problem, whether it is your foreign exchange training problem, how to solve all these use cases with AI, with DataRobot. So if you want to be in the business of using your data and being ahead of your competitors, DataRobot is your tool log choice. >>Sure. Great to have you on the cube as a strategy officer, you gotta look at the chess board, right. And we're kind of in the mid game, I call it the cloud opening game was, you know, happened. Now we're in the mid game of cloud computing where you're seeing a lot of refactoring of opportunities where technologies and data is the key to success, being things secure and operationally, scalable, etcetera, et cetera. What's the key right now for the ecosystem as a strategy, look at the chessboard for data robots. Obviously marketplace is important strategy. Yeah. And bet for, for DataRobot. What else do you see for your company to be successful? And you could share with, with customers watching. >>Yeah. For us, we are in the intelligence layer, the data, the layer below us is the data layer. The layer about us is the applications and the engagement layer. DataRobot I mean, interoperability and ecosystem is important for every company, but for DataRobot it's extra important because we are in that middle of middle layer of intelligence. And we, we have to integrate with all different data warehouses out there enable our customers to pull the data out in a very, very faster way and then showcase all the predictions into, into their tool of choice. And from a chessboard perspective, I like your phrase of we are in the mid cycle of the cloud revolution. Yeah. And every cloud player has a data science platform, whether it is simple one or more complex one, or whether it has been around for quite some time or it's been latent features. And it is important for us that we have complimentary value proposition with all of them, because at the end of the day, we want to maximize our customer's choice. And DataRobot wants to be a neutral platform in supporting all the different vendors out there from a complementary standpoint, because you don't want to have a vendor lock in for your customers. So you create models in SageMaker. For example, you monitor those in DataRobot or you create models in DataRobot and monitor those in AWS so that you have to provide like a very flexible >>That's a solution architecture. >>Correct? Exactly. You have to provide a very flexible tech stack for your customers. >>Yeah. That's the choice. That's the choice. It's all good. Thank you for coming on the cube, sharing the data robot. So I really appreciate it. Thank >>You for coming. Thank you very much for the opportunity. >>Okay. Breaking it all down with the partners here, the marketplace, it's the future, obviously where people are gonna buy the buyers and sellers coming together, the partner network and marketplace, the big news here at 80 seller conference. I'm John ferry with the cube will be right back with more coverage after this short break.

[digital Music] >> Okay, welcome back to "theCUBE," Supercloud 22. I'm John Furrier, host of "theCUBE." We got a very special distinguished CUBE alumni here, Rajiv Ramaswami, CEO of Nutanix. Great to see you. Thanks for coming by the show. >> Good to be here, John. >> We've had many conversations in the past about what you guys have done. Again, the perfect storm is coming, innovation. You guys are in an interesting position and the Supercloud kind of points this out. We've been discussing about how multi-cloud is coming. Everyone has multiple clouds, but there's real structural change happening right now in customers. Now there's been change that's happened, cloud computing, cloud operations, developers are doing great, but now something magical's happening in the industry. We wanted to get your thoughts on that, that's called Supercloud. >> Indeed. >> How do you see this shift? I mean, devs are doing great. Ops and security are trying to get cloud native. What's happening in your opinion? >> Yeah, in fact, we've been talking about something very, very similar. I like the term supercloud. We've been calling it hybrid multicloud essentially, but the point being, companies are running their applications and managing their data. This is lifeblood for them. And where do they sit? Of course, some of these will sit in the public cloud. Some of these are going to sit inside their data centers and some of these applications increasingly are going to run in edges. And now what most companies struggle with is every cloud is different, their on-prem is different, their edge is different and they then have a scarcity of staff. Operating models are different. Security is different. Everything about it is different. So to your point, people are using multiple clouds and multiple locations. But you need to think about cloud as an operating model and what the supercloud or hyper multicloud delivers is really a consistent model, consistent operating model. One way for IT teams to operate across all of these environments and deliver an agile infrastructure as a service model to their developers. So that from a company's managed point of view, they can run their stuff wherever they want to, completely with consistency, and the IT teams can help support that easily. >> You know, it's interesting. You see a lot of transformation, certainly from customers, they were paying a lot of operating costs for IT. Now CapEx is covered by, I mean, CapEx now is covered by the cloud, so it's OpEx. They're getting core competencies and they're becoming very fluent in cloud technologies. And at the same time the vendors are saying, "Hey, you know, buy our stuff." And so you have the change over, how people relate to each other, vendors and customers, where there's a shared model where, okay, you got use cases for the cloud and use cases on-premise, both CapEx, both technology. You mentioned that operating model, Where's the gap? 'Cause nobody wants complexity, and you know, the enterprise, people love to add, solve complexity with more complexity. >> That's exactly the problem. You just hit the nail on the head, which is enterprise software tends to be very complex. And fundamentally complexity has been a friend for vendors, but the point being, it's not a friend for a company that's trying to manage their IT infrastructure. It's an an enemy because complexity means you need to train your staff, you need very specialized teams, and guess what? Talent is perhaps the most scarce thing out there, right? People talk about, you know, in IT, they always talk about people, process, technology. There's plenty of technology out there, but right now there's a big scarcity of people, and I think that talent is a major issue. And not only that, you know, it's not that we have as many specialized people who know storage, who know compute, who know networking. Instead, what you're getting is a bunch of new college grads coming in, who have generalized skill sets, who are used to having a consumer like experience with their experience with software and applications, and they want to see that from their enterprise software vendors. >> You know, it's just so you mentioned that when the hyper converged, we saw that movie that was bringing things together. Now you're seeing the commoditization of compute storage and networking, but yet the advancement of higher level services and things like Kubernetes for orchestration, that's an operating opportunity for people to get more orchestration, but that's a trade off. So we're seeing a new trend in the supercloud where it's not all Kubernetes all the time. It's not all AWS all the time. It's the new architecture, where there's trade offs. How do you see some of these key trade offs? I know you talked to a lot of your customers, they're kind of bringing things together, putting things together, kind of a day zero mentality. What are some of those key trade offs and architectural decision points? >> So there's a couple of points there, I think. First is that most customers are on a journey of thoughts and their journey is, well, they want to have a modern infrastructure. Many of them have on-prem footprints, and they're looking to modernize that infrastructure. They're looking to adopt cloud operating models. They're looking to figure out how they can extend and leverage these public clouds appropriately. The problem is when they start doing this, they find that everything is different. Every little piece, every cloud is different, their on-prem is different, and this results in a lot of complexity. In some ways, we at Nutanix solved this problem within data centers by converging separate silos of high computer storage and network. That's what we did with HCI. And now this notion of supercloud is just simply about converging different clouds and different data. >> Kind of the same thing. >> And on-prem and edges, right? Trying to bring all of these together rather than having separate teams, separate processes, separate technologies for every one of these, try to create consistency, and it makes life a lot simpler and easier. >> Yeah, I wanted to connect those dots because I think this is kind of interesting with the supercloud was, you get good at something in one cloud, then you bring that best practice and figure out how to make that work across edge and on-premise, which is, I mean, basically cloud operations. >> Exactly. It's cloud operations, which is why we say it's a cloud is an operating model. It's a way you operate your environment, but that environment could be anywhere. You're not restricted to it being in the public cloud. It's in your data center, that's in the edges. >> Okay, so when I hear about substrates, abstraction layers, I think two things, innovation cause you extract away complexity, then I also think about from the customer's perspective, maybe, lock-in. >> Yes. >> Whoa, oh, promises, promises. Lock in is a fear and ops teams and security teams, they know the downside of lock-in. >> Yes. >> Choice is obviously important. Devs don't care. I mean, like, whatever runs the software, go faster, but ops and security teams, they want choice, but they want functionality. So, what's that trade off? Talk about this lock-in dynamic, and how to get around. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's been some of the fundamental tenants of what we do. I mean, of course, people don't like lock-in, but they also want simplicity. And we provide both. Our philosophy is we want to make things as simple as possible. And that's one of the big differentiators that we have compared to other players. Our whole mission inside the company is to make things simple. But at the same time, we also want to provide customers with that flexibility and every layer in the stack, you don't want to lock to your point. So, if at the very bottom hardware, choice of hardware. Choice of hardware could be any of the vendors you work with or public cloud, Bare Metal. When you look at hypervisor, lots of choices. You got VMware, you got our own Ahv, which is KBM-based open source hypervisor, no lock-in there, provide complete flexibility. Then we have a storage stack, a distributor storage stack, which we provide. And then of course layers about that. Kubernetes, pick your Kubernetes, runtime of choice. Pick your Kubernetes, orchestrator and management of choice. So our whole goal is to provide that flexibility at every layer in the stack, allowing the customer to make the choice. They can decide how much they want to go with the full stack or how much they want to go piecemeal it, and there's a trade off there. And they get more flexibility, but at the cost of a little bit more complexity, and that, I think, is the trade off that each customer has to weigh. >> Okay, you guys have been transforming for many, many years. We've been covering on SiliconANGLE and theCUBE to software. >> Yes. >> I know you have hardware as well, but also software services. And you've been on the cloud bandwagon years ago, and now you made a lot of progress. What's the current strategy for you guys? How do you fit in? 'Cause public cloud has great use cases, great examples of success there, but that's not the only game in town. You've got on-premise and edge. What are you guys doing? What specifically are customers leaning on you for? How are you providing that value? What's the innovation strategy? >> Very simply, we provide a cloud software platform today. We don't actually sell anymore hardware. They're not on our books anymore. We're a pure software company. So we sell a cloud soft platform on top of which our customers can run all their applications, including the most mission critical applications. And they can use our platform wherever, to your point, on the supercloud. I keep coming back to that. We started out with our on-prem genes. That's where we started. We've extended that to Azure and AWS. And we are extending, of course, we've always been very strong when it came to the edge and extending that out to the edge. And so today we have a cloud platform that allows our customers to run these apps, whatever the apps may be, and manage all their data because we provide structured and unstructured data, blocks, files, objects, are all part of the platform. And we provide that in a consistent way across all of these locations, and we deliver the cloud operating model. >> So on the hardware thing, you guys don't have hardware anymore. >> We don't sell hardware anymore. We work with a whole range of hardware partners, HP, Dell, Supermicro, name it, Lenovo. >> Okay, so if I'm like a Telco and I want to build a data center at my tower, which could be only a few boxes, who do I buy that from? >> So you buy the software from us and you can buy the hardware from your choice of hardware partners. >> So yeah, whoever's selling the servers at that point. >> Yeah. >> Okay, so you send on the server. >> Yeah, we send on the server. >> Yeah, sound's good. So no hardware, so back to software that could transfer. How's that going, good? >> It's gone very well because, you know, we made two transformations. One is of course we were selling appliances when we started out, and then we started selling software, and now it's all fully subscription. So we're 100% subscription company. So our customers are buying subscriptions. They have the flexibility to get whatever duration they want. Again, to your philosophy, there's no lock-in. There is no long term lock-in here. We are happy if a customer chooses us for a year versus three years, whatever they like. >> I know that you've been on the road with customers this summer. It's been great to get out and see people in person. What are you learning? What are they viewing? What's their new Instagram picture of Nutanix? How do they see you? And how do you want them to see you? >> What they've seen us in the past has been, we created this whole category of HCI, Hyperconverged Infrastructure. They see us as a leader there and they see us as running some of their applications, not necessarily all their applications, especially at the very big customers. In the smaller customers, they run everything on us, but in the bigger customers, they run some workload, some applications on us. And now what they see is that we are now, if taking them on the journey, not only to run all their applications, whatever, they may be, including the most mission critical database workloads or analytics workloads on our platform, but also help them extend that journey into the public cloud. And so that's the journey we are on, modernized infrastructure. And this is what most of our customers are on. Modernizing the infrastructure, which we help and then creating a cloud operating model, and making that available everywhere. >> Yeah, and I think one, that's a great, and again, that's a great segue to supercloud, which I want to get your thoughts on because AWS, for example, spent all that CapEx, they're called the hyperscaler. They got H in there and that's a hyperscale in there. And now you can leverage that CapEx by bringing Nutanix in, you're a hyperscale-like solution on-premise and edge. So you take advantage of both. >> Absolutely. >> The success. >> Exactly. >> And a trajectory of cloud, so your customers, if I get this right, have all the economies of scale of cloud, plus the benefits of the HCI software kind of vibe. >> Absolutely. And I'll give you some examples how this plays out in the real world based on all my travels here. >> Yeah, please do. So we just put out a case study on a customer called FSP. They're a betting company, online betting company based out of the UK. And they run on our platform on-prem, but what they saw was they had to expand their operations to Asia and they went to Taiwan. And the problem for them was, they were told they had to get in business in Taiwan within a matter of a month, and they didn't know how to do it. And then they realized that they could just take the exact same software that they were running on our platform, and run it in an AWS region sitting in Taiwan. And they were up in business in less than a month, and they had now operations ready to go in Asia. I mean, that's a compelling business value. >> That's agile, that's agile. >> Agile. >> That's agile and a great... >> Versus the alternative would be weeks, months. >> Months, first of all, I mean, just think about, they have to open a data center, which probably takes them, they have to buy the hardware, which, you know, with supply chain deliveries, >> Supply chain. and God knows how long that takes. >> Oh God, yeah. >> So compared to all that here, they were up and running within a matter of a month. It's a, just one example of a very compelling value proposition. >> So you feel good about where you guys are right now relative to these big waves coming? >> Yeah, I think so. Well, I mean, you know, there's a lot of big waves coming and. >> What are the biggest ones that you see? >> Well, I mean, I think there's clearly one of the big ones, of course, out there is Broadcom buying VMware or potentially buying VMware and great company. I used to work there for many years and I have a lot of respect for what VMware has done for the industry in terms of virtualization of servers and creating their entire portfolio. >> Is it true you're hiring a lot of VMware folks? >> Yes, I mean a lot of them coming over now in anticipation, we've been hiring our fair share, but they're going other places too. >> A lot of VMware alumni at Nutanix now. >> Yes, there are certainly, we have our share of VMware alumni. We also have a share of alumni from others. >> We call the V mafia, by the way. (laughs) >> I dunno about the V mafia, but. But it's a great company, but I think right now a lot of customers are wondering what's going to happen, and therefore, they are looking at potentially what are the other alternatives? And we are very much front and center in that discussions. >> Well, Dave Alante and I, and the team have been very bullish on on-premise cloud operations. You guys are doing there. How would you describe the supercloud concept to a customer when they say, "Hey, what's the supercloud? "It's becoming a thing. "How would you describe what it is and the benefits?" >> Yeah, and I think the first thing is to tell them, what problem are you looking to solve? And the problem for them is, they have applications everywhere. They have data everywhere. How do their teams run and deal with all of this? And what they find is the way they're doing it today is different operating platform for every one of these. If you're on Amazon, it's one platform. If you're an Azure, it's another. If you're on-prim, it's a third. If you want to go to the edge, probably fourth, and it's a messy, complex thing for their IT teams. What a supercloud does is essentially unify all of these into a consistent operating model. You get a cloud operating model, you get the agility and the benefits, but with one way of handling your compute storage network needs, one way of handling your security policies, and security constructs, and giving you that, so such a dramatic simplification on the one side, and it's a dramatic enabler because it now enables you to run these applications wherever you want completely free. >> Yeah. It really bridges the cloud native. It kind of the interplay on the cloud between SAS and IAS, solves a lot of problems, highly integrated, that takes that model to the complexity of multiple environments. >> Exactly. >> That's a super cool environment. >> (John speaks over Rajiv) Across any environment, wherever. It's changing this thing from cloud being associated with the public cloud to cloud being available everywhere in a consistent way. >> And that's essentially the goodness of cloud, going everywhere. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, but that extension is what you call a supercloud. >> Rajiv, thank you so much for your time. I know you're super valuable, and you got a company to run. One final question for you. The edge is exploding. >> Yes. >> It's super dynamic. We kind of all know it's there. The industrial edge. You got the IOT edge and just the edge in general. On-premise, I think, is hybrid, it's the steady state, looking good. Everything's good. It's getting better, of course, things with cloud native and all that good stuff. What's your view of the edge? It's super dynamic, a lot of shifting, OT, IT, that's actually transformed. >> Yes, absolutely. >> Huge industrial thing. Amazon is buying, you know, industrial robots now. >> Yes. >> Space is around the corner, a lot of industrial advance with machine learning and the software side of things, so the edge is exploding. >> Yeah, you know, and I think one of the interesting things about that exploding edge is that it tends to be both compute and data heavy. It's not this notion of very thin edges. Yes, you've got thin edges too, of course, which may just be sensors on the one hand, but you're seeing an increased need for compute and storage at the edges, because a lot of these are crunching, crunching applications that require a crunch and generate a lot of data, crunch a lot of data. There's latency requirements that require you and there's even people deploying GPUs at the edges for image recognition and so forth, right? So this is. >> The edge is the data center now. >> Exactly. Think of the edge starting to look at the edge of the mini data center, but one that needs to be highly automated. You're not going to be able to put people at every one of these locations. You've got to be able to do all your services, lifecycle management, everything completely remove. >> Self-healing, all this good stuffs. >> Exactly. It has to be completely automated and self-healing and upgradeable and you know, life cycle managed from the cloud, so to speak. And so there's going to be this interlinkage between the edge and the cloud, and you're going to actually, essentially what you need is a cloud managed edge. >> Yeah, and this is where the super cloud extends, where you can extend the value of what you're building to these dynamically new emerging, and it's just the beginning. There'll be more. >> Oh, there's a ton of new applications emerging there. And I think that's going to be, I mean, there's people out there who code that half of data is going to be generated at the edge in a couple of years. >> Well, Rajiv, I am excited that you can bring the depth of technical architectural knowledge to the table on supercloud, as well as run a company. Congratulations on your success, and thanks for sharing with us and being part of our community. >> No, thank you, John, for having me on your show. >> Okay. Supercloud 22, we're continuing to open up the conversation. There is structural change happening. We're going to watch it. We're going to make it an open conversation. We're not going to make a decision. We're going to just let everyone discuss it and see how it evolves and on the best in the business discussing it, and we're going to keep it going. Thanks for watching. (digital music)

[Music] okay welcome back everyone it's thecube's coverage here in monaco i'm john furrier host of thecube monaco crypto summit presented by digital bits uh media partners coin telegraph in the cube a lot of great stuff going on here digital bits and the ecosystem around the world come together to talk about the next generation uh nft environments metaverse uh blockchain all the innovations going up and down the stack of the decentralized world that will be soon a reality for everybody we have a great guest david lutzkach here who's the co-founder of aftermath islands metaverse which i got a little sneak preview of but david thanks for joining me thanks john great to be here uh we had dinner the other night at nobu it's great to know you get to know your background you've got a stellar uh pedigree um you've run public companies you've been involved in tech media across the board again this is a ship we're seeing like we've never before perfect storm technology change cultural change business model transformation all around deep decentralization crypto token economics decentralized applications metaverse i mean come on we haven't digital identity there was identity which you're involved in take us through what are you working on take a minute to explain what you're working on and then we'll get into it so aftermath islands is is really a culmination of three things uh digital identity the ability to prove who you are because we think the internet and i think everyone would agree the internet's broken you know um nefarious actors bad actors can be anywhere um hacks fake spots so by being able to prove that you're a real person not necessarily verifying your identity but prove that you're a real person um can add a lot of benefits to everyone in the ecosync system second thing is we combine that with avatars nfts and credentials because i'd like to represent myself as a little more buff than i am and maybe a little taller and then the third thing is we put it in a unreal engine so real realistic photo realistic game engine metaverse that requires no downloading it's all pixel streaming just like you'd stream netflix you can stream the game i want to ask because this is i know it's a hard problem because i've asked a lot of people the same question the unreal engine is really powerful and the imagery is amazing like gaming we all know what it looks like it's hard it's not everyone's getting it right what makes it so special how are you guys cracking the code well i think it's our experience i mean we've worked for major entertainment companies major technology companies major sports companies so um as i just use your word because it being i want to be humbled by this but we do have a great pedigree we've also brought great people to the table so having a platform isn't enough we've got great creators and uh we've got great storytellers so we've got the anisiasa brothers one mariano is is a illustrator and former special editor uh project center at marvel and his brother fabian is our storyteller who's the co-creator of deadpool so we've got great people and with unreal engine 5 we've really taken it from the ground up we've looked at it and and we've really combined it with new gpu cloud serving and pixel streaming so that you're so the individual that's that's involved engaged immersed is now really playing it without having to download a graphics package yeah and also you drop some names there and some and some brands i know there's a lot more at dinner we've talked a lot about them you you know all the top creators and again i love the creator culture i mean that's the new buzzwords around but ultimately it's artists people building stuff application developers in the software world movies and film art art and code is kind of coming together it's the same kind of thing media and coding it's like the same mindset you know creative exactly crazy good smart in a good way in the blockchain it's harder because you've got all this underlying infrastructure and stuff to provision and build often created say oh man it's like doing chores it's like i just want to build cool stuff i don't want to get in the weeds of all the tech right this is like whoever cracks the code can unleash that heavy lifting so the artist can like feel good about kicking ass well i'm i'm being a slot a little sly here because we've sort of broken it into three areas and we've used blockchain to book and the platform so we still think that that gaming in the interactive platform has to have centralization it has to have decision making we have a great community um between twitter and discord we have over 30 000 people and we have organizations that have already um spawned um themselves up or spun up to manage our landowner ownership and some of our guilds for some of our professions but at the same time they're allowing us to make decisions based on what the community wants i mean i've heard recently um i don't want to say it's a horror story but it's been difficult that consensus-based models for development have to get consensus and not everybody agrees you still need the leadership i mean you still need sort of a captain on a ship to make sure that the dictatorships are work and well and linux um tried that and they've worked for a while but when they moved over to we're going to make some decisions have an opinion right whether it's centralization it's faster yeah consensus systems can be diverse and time-consuming well they can be political as well i mean you can you can it can become problems so at the front end we've got digital identity and that's all blockchain based and at the back end we have over 20 services including dids and did com which is decentralized identifier communication and all our services are blockchain based but in the middle um connected to nft's blockchain and everything else and to our teacher identity we have a game or a game platform or a open world platform that is centralized built in unreal engine so that we can make those decisions that spur on individual development it's an architecture it is i mean this is essentially an operating environment exactly you can have the benefits of the decentralized all your data on your identity okay and then have the middle be the playground and built right now that has to get done faster and you're constantly iterating exactly so you need to have that exactly so what are people saying about this to me i think that makes a lot of sense people are very intrigued um we're getting a lot of traction first of all unreal engine in the middle um brands love it because it provides a realistic view of a brand brands have spent you know hundreds of millions of dollars building brand equity and they don't necessarily want a cartoon representation of their brand so brands love it um uh we showed a video here at the monaco crypto summit of some and our videos available online on youtube but we're showing realistic we can create realistic avatars so people are really excited about what we're doing you know david i think one of the things i've had controversy statements in the past that got all the purists going back to 2018 you know throwing tomatoes at me but other halfs like loving it because at that time there was dogma around block change got to be done you know it was slow and gas so why i can use a database now we use the blockchain for smart contracts right which you that's what you want to do you want to have that locked in you want immutability so again this opportunity is to advance faster and not have to get stuck in the dogma but maybe get it back to it later database is a great example i agreed i think i think over time the community will take over the entire platform but i think at the beginning you have to have again you have to have a rudder on a ship to make it go somewhere it's called product market fit exactly you got to get to the market exactly with a product you've got that i want that exactly i mean unreal engine is hard i know what are some of the people you worked with because i think i think what i like about what you're working on is that you are and i think a great poster child of in terms of the organization of a group of people that are pros that want to do great work in a new world with the kind of experience and tools that they had in their old world right faster cheaper better more control when we were there at web one we're there at web two and now with web three we have the ability to fix some of the things that we thought were wrong with web one and two so and move into the ownership economy and and really um for us we've got a great team of people you know around the world that we work with and we're starting to bring in larger organizations to support us i mean our digital identity we're really working with the backbone at ibm and digital identity is very different in blockchain than is crypto and we're working with great people in crypto now we announced today that we're minting our native token dubs with digital bits so we're really excited about that yeah yeah let me ask you a question because i love the fact that you brought multiple ways of innovation again i've mentioned on that with shared experience there different different ride for different waves what have you learned and shared to folks who are going to dip their toe and get on their surfboard so to speak use the california metaphor for both californians what is web3 wave like how's it different from two what's the learnings can you share scar tissue experience observation anything around what you're doing now so they can get insight into this wave well you know web 1 and web 2 were broken i mean you could never go in i think we had this discussion you could never go into an electronic store in the real world write your information down on a piece of paper and expect that you'd walk out of the store with the purchase but we can type in information that is non-verified until i could take my friend's credit card know where they live and use it by using digital identity at a front end we create one user one account that user can have thousands of verifiable credentials around them and hundreds of avatars so i think what we've really learned is the ability to progress in a way that that really puts data back in the hands of consumers and makes them the owner of their identity by starting there we have a world in front of us that is valuable to marketers valuable to brands and valuables to individuals and whether it's education whether it's government services whether it's retail everything can be built on that simple premise that i am myself it's interesting there's a constant technology we're called presence you know you're present at an event you're present at a store you're present and some reality physically and you have credentials around that presence contextually exactly you're saying you can have one nft one digital identity or identity and have multiple identities that have contacts all stored i'll store it in an avatar it's like changing your suit hey i'm going into the apple store i'm now my apple john and and think of it this way um brands can now connect with you and give you promos give you product based on the information that you're willing to share with them about your real person and your avatar becomes your intermediary so your payment information stored within your digital identity and your avatar not at the retail level so this is a concept we've been working on for a long time i think we're talking about dinner but i want to bring this up for you for you to come and get a reaction to is that if what you just said is true that means if i'm the user and i have power to control my data the script flips now i'm brokering my data to the brand exactly not the other way around exactly or some intermediary i'm in control exactly and i could demand based on what my contextual relevance is to the brand and the brand is willing to pay for that because if you think about it today um social media unfortunately is plagued by fake accounts you know and issues and and so brands are spending all this money and they're getting slippage and breakage and that's spent if they know your real person they're more likely to want to give you an incentive to engage with them because it's a one-to-one transaction that creates value that's a great point you mentioned twitter earlier look at elon musk uncovered all the bots on twitter um and if they ever did the facebook i'm sure there's a ton of different accounts on facebook but you know it's out there these walled gardens have nefarious bad actors man it's not truth isn't what's the truth i mean gaming has this right now it's like you're anonymous you can go down or you got to go real name so we've got a hybrid you can do anonymously verified so because we use biometrics to verify that you're a real person so you can stay anonymous but we know you're a real person because your biometrics belong to you well david great to have you on thecube you got a great insight and experience thanks for sharing thank you john uh what's next for you guys you want to put a plug in for what you're working on you're looking for people funding more action what are you guys doing right well we've we've self-funded to date and we're we're finally going to be releasing um opportunities for people to engage with us in tokenomics and that's why we've we're working with digital bits but we're also looking for great people and great partners we're creating an interoperable open um uh world where we want to bring partners to the table so anyone who's interested reach out to us all right david guys thanks for going on thecube all right more coverage here on thecube we're all over this area going back to 2018 we brought thecube to all the events been covered on siliconangle.com since 2010 and watching this wave just get better the reality is here it's a metaverse world it is a decentralized world happening to everyone monaco crypto summit here in monaco thanks for watching we'll be right back with more after this short break you

(bright music) >> Welcome back everyone to the live Cube coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts for AWS re:Inforce 22, with a great guest here, Denise Hayman, CRO, Chief Revenue of Sonrai Security. Sonrai's a featured partner of Season Two, Episode Four of the upcoming AWS Startup Showcase, coming in late August, early September. Security themed startup focused event, check it out. awsstartups.com is the site. We're on Season Two. A lot of great startups, go check them out. Sonrai's in there, now for the second time. Denise, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Ah, thanks for having me. >> So you've been around the industry for a while. You've seen the waves of innovation. We heard encrypt everything today on the keynote. We heard a lot of cloud native. They didn't say shift left but they said don't bolt on security after the fact, be in the CI/CD pipeline or the DevStream. All that's kind of top of line, Amazon's talking cloud native all the time. This is kind of what you guys are in the middle of. I've covered your company, you've been on theCUBE before. Your, not you, but your teammates have. You guys have a unique value proposition. Take a minute to explain for the folks that don't know, we'll dig into it, but what you guys are doing. Why you're winning. What's the value proposition. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, Sonrai is, I mean what we do is it's, we're a total cloud solution, right. Obviously, right, this is what everybody says. But what we're dealing with is really, our superpower has to do with the data and identity pieces within that framework. And we're tying together all the relationships across the cloud, right. And this is a unique thing because customers are really talking to us about being able to protect their sensitive data, protect their identities. And not just people identities but the non-people identity piece is the hardest thing for them to reign in. >> Yeah. >> So, that's really what we specialize in. >> And you guys doing good, and some good reports on good sales, and good meetings happening here. Here at the show, the big theme to me, and again, listening to the keynotes, you hear, you can see what's, wasn't talk about. >> Mm-hmm. >> Ransomware wasn't talked about much. They didn't talk about air-gapped. They mentioned ransomware I think once. You know normal stuff, teamwork, encryption everywhere. But identity was sprinkled in everywhere. >> Mm-hmm. >> And I think one of the, my favorite quotes was, I wrote it down, We've security in the development cycle CSD, they didn't say shift left. Don't bolt on any of that. Now, that's not new information. We know that don't bolt, >> Right. >> has been around for a while. He said, lessons learned, this is Stephen Schmidt, who's the CSO, top dog on security, who has access to what and why over permissive environments creates chaos. >> Absolutely. >> This is what you guys reign in. >> It is. >> Explain, explain that. >> Yeah, I mean, we just did a survey actually with AWS and Forrester around what are all the issues in this area that, that customers are concerned about and, and clouds in particular. One of the things that came out of it is like 95% of clouds are, what's called over privileged. Which means that there's access running amok, right. I mean, it, it is, is a crazy thing. And if you think about the, the whole value proposition of security it's to protect sensitive data, right. So if, if it's permissive out there and then sensitive data isn't being protected, I mean that, that's where we really reign it in. >> You know, it's interesting. I zoom out, I just put my historian hat on going back to the early days of my career in late eighties, early nineties. There's always, when you have these inflection points, there's always these problems that are actually opportunities. And DevOps, infrastructure as code was all about APS, all about the developer. And now open source is booming, open source is the software industry. Open source is it in the world. >> Right. >> That's now the software industry. Cloud scale has hit and now you have the Devs completely in charge. Now, what suffers now is the Ops and the Sec, Second Ops. Now Ops, DevOps. Now, DevSecOps is where all the action is. >> Yep. >> So the, the, the next thing to do is build an abstraction layer. That's what everyone's trying to do, build tools and platforms. And so that's where the action is here. This is kind of where the innovation's happening because the networks aren't the, aren't in charge anymore either. So, you now have this new migration up to higher level services and opportunities to take the complexity away. >> Mm-hmm. >> Because what's happened is customers are getting complexity. >> That's right. >> They're getting it shoved in their face, 'cause they want to do good with DevOps, scale up. But by default their success is also their challenge. >> Right. >> 'Cause of complexity. >> That's exactly right. >> This is, you agree with that. >> I do totally agree with that. >> If you, you believe that, then what's next. What happens next? >> You know, what I hear from customers has to do with two specific areas is they're really trying to understand control frameworks, right. And be able to take these scenarios and build them into something that they, where they can understand where the gaps are, right. And then on top of that building in automation. So, the automation is a, is a theme that we're hearing from everybody. Like how, how do they take and do things like, you know it's what we've been hearing for years, right. How do we automatically remediate? How do we automatically prioritize? How do we, how do we build that in so that they're not having to hire people alongside that, but can use software for that. >> The automation has become key. You got to find it first. >> Yes. >> You guys are also part of the DevCycle too. >> Yep. >> Explain that piece. So, I'm a developer, I'm an organization. You guys are on the front end. You're not bolt-on, right? >> We can do either. We prefer it when customers are willing to use us, right. At the very front end, right. Because anything that's built in the beginning doesn't have the extra cycles that you have to go through after the fact, right. So, if you can build security right in from the beginning and have the ownership where it needs to be, then you're not having to, to deal with it afterwards. >> Okay, so how do you guys, I'm putting my customer hat on for a second. A little hard, hard question, hard problem. I got active directory on Azure. I got, IM over here with AWS. I wanted them to look the same. Now, my on-premises, >> Ah. >> Is been booming, now I got cloud operations, >> Right. >> So, DevOps has moved to my premise and edge. So, what do I do? Do I throw everything out, do a redo. How do you, how do you guys talk about, talk to customers that have that chance, 'cause a lot of them are old school. >> Right. >> ID. >> And, and I think there's a, I mean there's an important distinction here which is there's the active directory identities right, that customers are used to. But then there's this whole other area of non-people identities, which is compute power and privileges and everything that gets going when you get you know, machines working together. And we're finding that it's about five-to-one in terms of how many identities are non-human identities versus human identity. >> Wow. >> So, so you actually have to look at, >> So, programmable access, basically. >> Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Right. >> Wow. >> And privileges and roles that are, you know accessed via different ways, right. Because that's how it's assigned, right. And people aren't really paying that close attention to it. So, from that scenario, like the AD thing of, of course that's important, right. To be able to, to take that and lift it into your cloud but it's actually even bigger to look at the bigger picture with the non-human identities, right. >> What about the CISOs out there that you talk to. You're in the front lines, >> Yep. >> talking to customers and you see what's coming on the roadmap. >> Yep. >> So, you kind of get the best of both worlds. See what they, what's coming out of engineering. What's the biggest problem CISOs are facing now? Is it the sprawl of the problems, the hacker space? Is it not enough talent? What, I mean, I see the fear, what are, what are they facing? How do you, how do you see that, and then what's your conversations like? >> Yeah. I mean the, the answer to that is unfortunately yes, right. They're dealing with all of those things. And, and here we are at the intersection of, you know, this huge complex thing around cloud that's happening. There's already a gap in terms of resources nevermind skills that are different skills than they used to have. So, I hear that a lot. The, the bigger thing I think I hear is they're trying to take the most advantage out of their current team. So, they're again, worried about how to operationalize things. So, if we bring this on, is it going to mean more headcount. Is it going to be, you know things that we have to invest in differently. And I was actually just with a CISO this morning, and the whole team was, was talking about the fact that bringing us on means they have, they can do it with less resource. >> Mm-hmm. >> Like this is a a resource help for them in this particular area. So, that that was their value proposition for us, which I loved. >> Let's talk about Adrian Cockcroft who retired from AWS. He was at Netflix before. He was a big DevOps guy. He talks about how agility's been great because from a sales perspective the old model was, he called it the, the big Indian wedding. You had to get everyone together, do a POC, you know, long sales cycles for big tech investments, proprietary. Now, open sources like speed dating. You can know what's good quickly and and try things quicker. How is that, how is that impacting your sales motions. Your customer engagements. Are they fast? Are they, are they test-tried before they buy? What's the engagement model that you, you see happening that the customers like the best. >> Yeah, hey, you know, because of the fact that we're kind of dealing with this serious part of the problem, right. With the identities and, and dealing with data aspects of it it's not as fast as I would like it to be, right. >> Yeah, it's pretty important, actually. >> They still need to get in and understand it. And then it's different if you're AWS environment versus other environments, right. We have to normalize all of that and bring it together. And it's such a new space, >> Yeah. >> that they all want to see it first. >> Yeah. >> Right, so. >> And, and the consequences are pretty big. >> They're huge. >> Yeah. >> Right, so the, I mean, the scenario here is we're still doing, in some cases we'll do workshops instead of a POV or a POC. 90% of the time though we're still doing a POV. >> Yeah, you got to. >> Right. So, they can see what it is. >> They got to get their hands on it. >> Yep. >> This is one of those things they got to see in action. What is the best-of-breed? If you had to say best-of-breed in identity looks like blank. How would you describe that from a customer's perspective? What do they need the most? Is it robustness? What's some of the things that you guys see as differentiators for having a best-of-breed solution like you guys have. >> A best-of-breed solution. I mean, for, for us, >> Or a relevant solution for that matter, for the solution. >> Yeah. I mean, for us, this, again, this identity issue it, for us, it's depth and it's continuous monitoring, right. Because the issue in the cloud is that there are new privileges that come out every single day, like to the tune of like 35,000 a year. So, even if at this exact moment, it's fine. It's not going to be in another moment, right. So, having that continuous monitoring in there, and, and it solves this issue that we hear from a lot of customers also around lateral movement, right. Because like a piece of compute can be on and off, >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> within a few seconds, right. So, you can't use any of the old traditional things anymore. So to me, it's the continuous monitoring I think that's important. >> I think that, and the lateral movement piece, >> Yep. >> that you guys have is what I hear the most of the biggest fears. >> Mm-hmm. >> Someone gets in here and can move around, >> That's right. >> and that's dangerous. >> Mm-hmm. And, and no traditional tools will see it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. There's nothing in there unless you're instrumented down to that level, >> Yeah. >> which is what we do. You're not going to see it. >> I mean, when someone has a firewall, a perimeter based system, yeah, I'm in the castle, I'm moving around, but that's not the case here. This is built for full observability, >> That's right. >> Yet there's so many vulnerabilities. >> It's all open. Mm-hmm, yeah. And, and our view too, is, I mean you bring up vulnerabilities, right. It, it is, you know, a little bit of the darling, right. People start there. >> Yep. >> And, and our belief in our view is that, okay, that's nice. But, and you do have to do that. You have to be able to see everything right, >> Yep. >> to be able to operationalize it. But if you're not dealing with the sensitive data pieces right, and the identities and stuff that's at the core of what you're trying to do >> Yeah. >> then you're not going to solve the problem. >> Yeah. Denise, I want to ask you. Because you make what was it, five-to-one was the machine to humans. I think that's actually might be low, on the low end. If you could imagine. If you believe that's true. >> Yep. >> I believe that's true by the way If microservices continues to be the, be the wave. >> Oh, it'll just get bigger. >> Which it will. It's going to much bigger. >> Yeah. >> Turning on and off, so, the lateral movement opportunities are going to be greater. >> Yep. >> That's going to be a bigger factor. Okay, so how do I protect myself. Now, 'cause developer productivity is also important. >> Mm-hmm. >> 'Cause, I've heard horror stories like, >> Yep. >> Yeah, my Devs are cranking away. Uh-oh, something's out there. We don't know about it. Everyone has to stop, have a meeting. They get pulled off their task. It's kind of not agile. >> Right. Right. >> I mean, >> Yeah. And, and, in that vein, right. We have built the product around what we call swim lanes. So, the whole idea is we're prioritizing based on actual impact and context. So, if it's a sandbox, it probably doesn't matter as much as if it's like operational code that's out there where customers are accessing it, right. Or it's accessing sensitive data. So, we look at it from a swim lane perspective. When we try to get whoever needs to solve it back to the person that is responsible for it. So we can, we can set it up that way. >> Yeah. I think that, that's key insight into operationalizing this. >> Yep. >> And remediation is key. >> Yes. >> How, how much, how important is the timing of that. When you talk to your customer, I mean, timing is obviously going to be longer, but like seeing it's one thing, knowing what to do is another. >> Yep. >> Do you guys provide that? Is that some of the insights you guys provide? >> We do, it's almost like, you know, us. The, and again, there's context that's involved there, right? >> Yeah. >> So, some remediation from a priority perspective doesn't have to be immediate. And some of it is hair on fire, right. So, we provide actually, >> Yeah. >> a recommendation per each of those situations. And, and in some cases we can auto remediate, right. >> Yeah. >> If, it depends on what the customer's comfortable with, right. But, when I talk to customers about what is their favorite part of what we do it is the auto remediation. >> You know, one of the things on the keynotes, not to, not to go off tangent, one second here but, Kurt who runs platforms at AWS, >> Mm-hmm. >> went on his little baby project that he loves was this automated, automatic reasoning feature. >> Mm-hmm. >> Which essentially is advanced machine learning. >> Right. >> That can connect the dots. >> Yep. >> Not just predict stuff but like actually say this doesn't belong here. >> Right. >> That's advanced computer science. That's heavy duty coolness. >> Mm-hmm. >> So, operationalizing that way, the way you're saying it I'm imagining there's some future stuff coming around the corner. Can you share how you guys are working with AWS specifically? Is it with Amazon? You guys have your own secret sauce for the folks watching. 'Cause this remediation should, it only gets harder. You got to, you have to be smarter on your end, >> Yep. >> with your engineers. What's coming next. >> Oh gosh, I don't know how much of what's coming next I can share with you, except for tighter and tighter integrations with AWS, right. I've been at three meetings already today where we're talking about different AWS services and how we can be more tightly integrated and what's things we want out of their APIs to be able to further enhance what we can offer to our customers. So, there's a lot of those discussions happening right now. >> What, what are some of those conversations like? Without revealing. >> I mean, they have to do with, >> Maybe confidential privilege. >> privileged information. I don't mean like privileged information. >> Yep. I mean like privileges, right, >> Right. >> that are out there. >> Like what you can access, and what you can't. >> What you can, yes. And who and what can access it and what can't. And passing that information on to us, right. To be able to further remediate it for an AWS customer. That's, that's one. You know, things like other AWS services like CloudTrail and you know some of the other scenarios that they're talking about. Like we're, you know, we're getting deeper and deeper and deeper with the AWS services. >> Yeah, it's almost as if Amazon over the past two years in particular has been really tightly integrating as a strategy to enable their partners like you guys >> Mm-hmm. >> to be successful. Not trying to land grab. Is that true? Do you get that vibe? >> I definitely get that vibe, right. Yesterday, we spent all day in a partnership meeting where they were, you know talking about rolling out new services. I mean, they, they are in it to win it with their ecosystem. Not on, not just themselves. >> All right, Denise it's great to have you on theCUBE here as part of re:Inforce. I'll give you the last minute or so to give a plug for the company. You guys hiring? What are you guys looking for? Potential customers that are watching? Why should they buy you? Why are you winning? Give a, give the pitch. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, so yes we are hiring. We're always hiring. I think, right, in this startup world. We're growing and we're looking for talent, probably in every area right now. I know I'm looking for talent on the sales side. And, and again, the, I think the important thing about us is the, the fullness of our solution but the superpower that we have, like I said before around the identity and the data pieces and this is becoming more and more the reality for customers that they're understanding that that is the most important thing to do. And I mean, if they're that, Gartner says it, Forrester says it, like we are one of the, one of the best choices for that. >> Yeah. And you guys have been doing good. We've been following you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> And congratulations on your success. And we'll see you at the AWS Startup Showcase in late August. Check out Sonrai Systems at AWS Startup Showcase late August. Here at theCUBE live in Boston getting all the coverage. From the keynotes, to the experts, to the ecosystem, here on theCUBE, I'm John Furrier your host. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

>>The cube presents HPE discover 2022 brought to you by HPE. >>Welcome back to the Cube's coverage. We're wrapping up day two, John furrier and Dave ante. We got some friends and colleagues, longtime friends, Crawford Del Pret is the president of IDC. Matt Eastwood is the senior vice president of infrastructure and cloud guys. Thanks for coming on spending time. Great to you guys. >>That's fun to do it. Awesome. >>Cravin I want to ask you, I, I think this correct me if I'm wrong, but this was your first physical directions as, as president. Is that true or did you do one in 2019? >>Uh, no, we did one in 20. We did, we did one in 20. I was president at the time and then, and then everything started, >>Well, how was directions this year? You must have been stoked to get back together. Yeah, >>It was great. I mean, it was actually pretty emotional, you know, it's, it's a community, right? I mean, we have a lot of customers that have been coming to that event for a long, long time and to stand up on the stage and look out and see people, you know, getting a little bit emotional and a lot of hugs and a lot of bringing people together. And this year in Boston, we were the first event really of any size that kind of came back. And when I kind of didn't see that coming in terms of how people, how ready people were to be together. Cause >>When did you did it April >>In Boston? Yeah, we did it March in March. Yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was a game day decision. I mean, we were, we had negotiated it, we were going back and forth and then I kind of made the call at the last minute, say, let's go and do it. And in Santa Clara, I felt like we were kind of opening up the crypt at the convention center. I mean, all the production people said, you know what? You guys were really the first event to be back. And attendance was really strong. You know, we, we, we got over a thousand. It was, it was really good. >>Good. It's always a fun when I was there. It was, it's a big deal. You guys prepare for it. Yeah. Some new faces up on the stage. Yeah. So, so Matt, um, you've been doing the circuit. I take it like, like all top analysts, super busy. Right. This is kind of end of the spring. I mean, I know it's summer, right. That's right. But, um, how do you look at, at discover relative some, some of the other events you've been at? >>So I think if you go back to what Crawford was just talking about our event in March, I mean, March was sort of the, the reopening and there was, I think people just felt so happy to be, to be back out there. You still get a little bit at, at these events. I mean, cuz for each, each company it's their first time back at it, but I think we're starting to get down what these events are gonna feel like going forward. Um, and it, I mean, there's good energy here. There's been a good attendance. I think the, the interest in getting back live and having face to face meetings is clearly strong. >>Yeah. I mean, this definitely shows that hybrids, the steady state, both events cloud. Yeah. Virtualization remotes. So what are you guys seeing with that hybrid mode? Just from a workforce, certainly people excited to get back together, but it's gonna continue. You're starting to see that digital piece. How is that impacting some of the, some of the customers you're tracking, who's winning and who's losing, coming out of the pandemic. What's the big picture look like? >>Yeah. I mean, if you, if you take a look at hybrid work, um, people are testing many, many, many different models. And I think as we move from a pandemic to an em, we're gonna have just waves and waves and waves of people needing that flexibility for a lot of different reasons, whether they have, uh, you know, preexisting conditions, whether they're just not comfortable, whether they have people who can't be vaccinated at home. So I think we're gonna be in this hybrid work for a long, long time. I do think though that we are gonna transition back into some kind of a normal, um, and I, and I think the big difference is that I think leaders back in the day, a long time ago, when people weren't coming into work, it was kind of like, oh, I know nothing's going on there. People aren't getting worked. And I think we're over that stage. Yeah. I think we're now into a stage where we know people can be productive. We know people can effectively work from home and now we're into the reason to be in the office. And the reason to be in the office is that collaboration, it's that mentoring it's that, you know, think about your 25 year old self. Do you wanna be staring at a windshield all day long and not kind of building those relationships? People want face to face, it's difficult. They want face >>To face and I would, and you guys had a great culture and it's a young culture. How are you handling it as an executive in terms of, is there a policy for hybrid or >>Yeah, so, so, so at IDC, what we did is we're in a pilot period and we've kind of said that the summertime is gonna be a pilot period and we've asked people, we're actually serving shocker, we're >>Serving, >>But we're, but we're, but, but we're actually asking people to work with their manager on what works for them. And then we'll come up with, you know, whether you are in, out of the office worker, which will be less than two days a hybrid worker, which will be three days or, uh, in, in the office, which is more than three days a week. And you know, we all know there's, there's, there's limitation, there's, there's, there's variability in that, but that's kind of what we're shooting for. And we'd like to be able to have that in place in the fall. >>Are you pretty much there? >>Yeah, I am. I, I am there three days a week. I I, Mondays and Fridays, unless, >>Because you got the CEO radius, right? Yeah. >><laugh>, <laugh> >>The same way I'm in the office, the smaller, smaller office. But so, uh, let's talk a little bit about the, the numbers we were chatting earlier, trying to squint through you guys are, you know, obviously the gold standard for what the market does, what happened in, you know, during the pandemic, what happened in 2021 and what do you expect to happen in, in 2022 in terms of it spending growth? >>Yeah. So this is, this is a crazy time, right? We've never seen this. You and I have a long history of, uh, of tracking this. So we saw in, in, in, in 2020, the market decelerated dramatically, um, the GDP went down to a negative like it always does in these cases, it was, you know, probably negative six in that, in that, in that kind of range for the first time, since I've been tracking it, which goes back over 30 years, tech didn't go negative tech went to about just under 3%. And then as we went to 2021, we saw, you know, everything kind of snap back, we saw tech go up to about 11% growth. And then of course we saw, you know, GDP come back to about a 4%, you know, ki kind of range growth. Now what's I think the story there is that companies and you saw this anecdotally everywhere companies leaned into tech, uh, company. >>You know, I think, you know, Matt, you have a great statistic that, you know, 80% of companies used COVID as their point to pivot into digital transformation, right. And to invest in a different way. And so what we saw now is that tech is now where I think companies need to focus. They need to invest in tech. They need to make people more productive with tech and it played out in the numbers now. So this year what's fascinating is we're looking at two Fastly different markets. We've got gasoline at $7 a gallon. We've got that affecting food prices. Uh, interesting fun fact recently it now costs over $1,000 to fill an 18 Wheeler. All right. Based on, I mean this just kind of can't continue. So you think about it, don't put the boat >>In the wall. Yeah. Yeah. >>Good, good, good, good luck. It's good. Yeah, exactly. <laugh> so a family has kind of this bag of money, right? And that bag of money goes up by maybe three, 4% every year, depending upon earnings. So that is sort of sloshing around. So if food and fuel and rent is taking up more gadgets and consumer tech are not, you know, you're gonna use that iPhone a little longer. You're gonna use that Android phone a little longer. You're gonna use that TV a little longer. So consumer tech is getting crushed, you know, really it's very, very, and you saw it immediately and ad spending, you've seen it in meta. You've seen it in Facebook. Consumer tech is doing very, very it's tough enterprise tech. We haven't been in the office for two and a half years. We haven't upgraded whether that be campus wifi, whether that be, uh, servers, whether that be, uh, commercial PCs, as much as we would have. So enterprise tech, we're seeing double digit order rates. We're seeing strong, strong demand. Um, we have combined that with a component shortage and you're seeing some enterprise companies with a quarter of backlog. I mean, that's, you know, really unheard at higher >>Prices, which >>Also, and therefore that drives that >>Drives. It shouldn't be that way. If there's a shortage of chips, it shouldn't be that way, >>But it is, but it is, but it is. And then you look at software and we saw this, you know, we've seen this in previous cycles, but we really saw it in the COVID downturn where, uh, in software, the stickiness of SaaS means that you just, you're not gonna take that stuff out. So the, the second half of last year we saw double digit rates in software surprise. We're seeing high single digit revenue growth in software now, so that we think is gonna sustain, which means that overall it demand. We expect to be between five and 6% this year. Okay, fine. We have a war going on. We have, you know, potentially, uh, a recession. We think if we do, it'll be with a lower case, R maybe you see a banded down to maybe 4% growth, but it's gonna grow this. >>Is it, is it both the structural change of the disruption of COVID plus the digital transformation yeah. Together? Or is it, >>I, I think you make a great point. Um, I, I, I think that we are entering a new era for tech. I think that, you know, Andrew's famous wall street journal oped 10 years ago, software is even world was absolutely correct. And now we're finding that software is, is eing into every nook and cranny people have to invest. They, they know disruptors are coming around every single corner. And if I'm not leaning into digital transformation, I'm dead. So >>The number of players in tech is, is growing, >>Cuz there's well, the number of players in tech number >>Industry's coming >>In. Yeah. The industry's coming in. So I think the interesting dynamic you're gonna see there is now we have high interest rates. Yeah. Which means that the price of funding these companies and buying them and putting data on is gonna get higher and higher, which means that I think you could, you could see another wave of consolidation. Mm-hmm <affirmative> because tech large install based tech companies are saying, oh, you know what? I like that now >>4 0 9 S are being reset too. That's another point. >>Yeah. I mean, so if you think about this, this transformation, right. So it's all about apps, absent data and differentiating and absent data. What the, the big winner the last couple years was cloud. And I would just say that if this is the first potential recession that we're talking about, where the cloud service providers. So I think a cloud as an operating model, not necessarily a destination, but for these cloud service providers, they've actually never experienced a slowdown. So how, and, and if you think about the numbers, 30% of, of the typical it budget is now quote, unquote cloud and 30% of all expenditures are it related. So there's a lot of exposure there. And I think you're gonna see a lot of, a lot of focus on how we can rationalize some of those investments. >>Well, that's a great point. I want to just double click on that. So yeah, the cloud did well during the pandemic. We saw that with SAS, have you guys tracked like the Tams of what got pulled forward? So the bit, a big discussion about something that pulled forward because of the pandemic, um, like zoom, for instance, obviously everyone's using zoom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was there fake Tams? There was one, uh, couple analysts who were pointing out that some companies were hot during the pandemic will go away that that Tam doesn't really exist, but there's some that got pulled forward early. That's where the growth is. So is there a, is there a line between the, I call fake Tam or pulled forward TA that was only for the pandemic situationally, um, devices might be like virtual event, virtual event. Software was one, I know Hoppin got laid a lot of layoffs. And so that was kind of gone coming, coming and going. And you got SAS which got pulled forward. Yep. And it's not going away, but it's >>Sustaining. Yeah. Yeah. But it's, but, but it's sustaining, um, you know, I definitely think there was a, there was a lot of spending that absolutely got pulled forward. And I think it's really about CEO's ability to control expectations and to kind of message what it, what it looks like. Um, you know, I think I look, I, I, I think virtual event platforms probably have a role. I think you can, you can definitely, you know, raise your margins in the event, business, significantly using those platforms. There's a role for them. But if you were out there thinking that this thing was gonna continue, then you know, that that was unrealistic, you know, Dave, to, to your point on devices, I'm not necessarily, you know. Sure. I think, I think we definitely got ahead of our expectations and things like consumer PCs, those things will go back to historical growth >>Rates. Yeah. I mean, you got the install base is pretty young right now, but I think the one way to look at it too, is there was some technical debt brought in because people didn't necessarily expect that we'd be moving to a permanent hybrid state two years ago. So now we have to actually invest on both. We have to make, create a little bit more permanency around the hybrid world. And then also like Crawford's talking about the permanency of, of having an office and having people work in, in multiple modes. Yeah. It actually requires investment in both the office. And >>Also, so you're saying operationally, you gotta run the company and do the digital transformation to level up the hybrid. >>Yeah. Yeah. Just the way people work. Right. So, so, you know, you basically have to, I mean, even for like us internally, Crawford was saying, we're experimenting with what works for us. My team before the pandemic was like one third virtual. Now it's two third virtual, which means that all of our internal meetings are gonna be on, on teams or zoom. Right. Yeah. They're not gonna necessarily be, Hey, just coming to the office today, cuz two thirds of people aren't in the Boston area. >>Right. Matt, you said if you see cloud as an operating model, not necessarily a place. I remember when you were out, I was in the, on the, on the, on the zoom when, when first met Adam Celski yeah. Um, he said, you were asking him about, you know, the, the on-prem guys and he's like, nah, it's not cloud. And he kind of was very dismissive of it. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna get your take on, you know, what we're seeing with as Azure service GreenLake, apex, Cisco's got their version. IBM. Fewer is doing it. Is that cloud. >>I think if it's, I, I don't think all of it is by default. I think it is. If I actually think what HPE is doing is cloud, because it's really about how you present the services and how you allow customers to engage with the platform. So they're actually creating a cloud model. I think a lot of people get lost in the transition from, you know, CapEx to OPEX and the financing element of this. But the reality is what HPE is doing and they're sort of setting the standard. I think for the industry here is actually setting up what I would consider a cloud model. >>Well, in the early days of, of GreenLake, for sure it was more of a financial, you >>Know, it was kind of bespoke, right. But now you've got 70 services. And so you can, you can build that out. But >>You know, we were talking to Keith Townsend right after the keynote and we were sort of UN unpacking it a little bit. And I, I asked the question, you know, if you, if you had to pin this in terms of AWS's maturity, where are we? And the consensus was 2014 console filling, is that fair or unfair? >>Oh, that's a good question. I mean, um, I think it's, well, clouds come a long way, right? So it'd be, I, I, I think 20, fourteen's probably a little bit too far back because >>You have more modern tools I Kubernetes is. Yeah. >>And, but you also have, I would say the market still getting to a point of, of, of readiness and in terms of buying this way. So if you think about the HP's kind of strategy around edge, the core platform as a, as a service, you know, we're all big believers in edge and the apps follow the data and the data's being created in new locations and you gotta put the infrastructure there. And for an end user, there's a lot of risk there because they don't know how to actually plan for capacity at the edge. So they're gonna look to offload that, but this is a long term play to actually, uh, build out and deploy at the edge. It's not gonna happen tomorrow. It's a five, 10 year play. >>Yeah. I mean, I like the operating model. I'd agree with you, Matt, that if it's, if it's cloud operations, DevSecOps and all that, all that jazz it's cloud it's cloud operating and, and, and public cloud is a public cloud hyperscaler on premise. And the storage folks were presented. That's a single pane of glass. That's old school concepts, but cloud based. Yep. Shipping hardwares, auto figures. Yeah. That's the kind of consumption they're going for now. I like it. Then I, then they got the partner led thing is the partner piece. How do you guys see that? Because if I'm a partner, there's two things, wait a minute, am I at bottleneck to the direct self-service? Or is that an enabler to get more cash, to make more money? If I'm a partner. Cause you see what Essentia's doing with what they do with Amazon and Deloitte and et C. Yeah. You know, it's interesting, right? Like they've a channel partner, I'm making more cash. >>Yeah. I mean, well, and those channel partners are all in transition too. They're trying to yeah. Right. Figure out. Right, right. Are they, you know, what are their managed services gonna look like? You know, what kind of applications are they gonna stand up? They're they're not gonna just be >>Reselling, bought a big house in a boat. The box is not selling. I wanna ask you guys about growth because you know, the big three cloud, big four growing pick a number, I dunno, 30, 35% revenue big. And like you said, it's 30% of the business now. I think Dell's growing double digits. I don't know how much of that is sustainable. A lot of that is PCs, but still strong growth. Yep. I think Cisco has promised 9% >>In, in that. Right, right. >>About that. Something like that. I think IBM Arvin is at 6%. Yep. And I think HPE has said, Hey, we're gonna do three to 4%. Right. Which is so really sort of lagging and which I think a lot of people in wall street is like, okay, well that's not necessarily so compelling. Right. What does HPE have to do to double that growth? Or even triple that growth. >>Yeah. So they're gonna need, so, so obviously you're right. I mean, being able to show growth is Tanem out to this company getting, you know, more attention, more heat from, from investors. I think that they're rightly pointing to the triple digit growth that they've seen on green lake. I think if you look at the trailing, you know, 12 month bookings, you got over, you know, 7 billion, which means that in a year, you're gonna have a significant portion of the company is as a service. And you're gonna see that revenue that's rat being, you know, recognized over a series of months. So I think that this is sort of the classic SAS trough that we've seen applied to an infrastructure company where you're basically have to kind of be in the desert for a long time. But if they can, I think the most important number for HPE right now is that GreenLake booking snow. >>And if you look at that number and you see that number, you know, rapidly come down, which it hasn't, I mean off a very large number, you're still in triple digits. They will ultimately start to show revenue growth, um, in the business. And I think the one thing people are missing about HPE is there aren't, there are a lot of companies that want to build a platform, but they're small and nobody cares. And nobody let's say they throw a party and nobody comes. HP has such a significant installed base that if they do build a platform, they can attract partners to that platform. What I mean by that is partners that deliver services on GreenLake that they're not delivering. They have the girth to really start to change an industry and change the way stuff is being built. And that's the be they're making. And frankly, they are showing progress in that direction. >>So I buy that. But the one thing that concerns me is they kind of hide the ball on services. Right. And I, and I worry about that is like, is this a services kind of just, you know, same wine, new bottle or, >>Or, yeah. So, so I, I, I would argue that it's not about hiding the ball. It's about eliminating confusion of the marketplace. This is the company that bought EDS only to spin it off <laugh>. Okay. And so you don't wanna have a situation where you're getting back into services. >>Yeah. They're the only one >>They're product, not the only ones who does, I mean, look at the way IBM used to count and still >>I get it. I get it. But I think it's, it's really about clarity of mission. Well, I point next they are in the Ts business, absolutely. Point of it. It's important prop >>Drive for them at the top. Right. The global 50 say there's still a lot of uniqueness in what they want to buy. So there's definitely a lot of bespoke kind of delivery. That's still happening there. The real promise here is when you get into the global 2000 and yeah. And can start them to getting them to consume very standardized offers. And then the margins are, are healthy >>And they got they're what? Below 30, 33, 30 3%. I think 34% last quarter gross margin. Yeah. That that's solid. Just compare that with Dell is, I don't know. They're happy with 20, 21% of correct. You get that, which is, you know, I I'll come back. Go ahead. I want, I wanna ask >>Guys. No, I wanna, I wanna just, he said one thing I like, which was, I think he nailed it. They have such, um, big install base. They have a great channel. They know how to use it. Right. That's a real asset. Yeah. And Microsoft, I remember when their stock was trading at 26 when Baltimore was CEO. Yep. What they did with no, they had office and windows, so a little bit different. Yep. But similar strategy, leverage our install base, bring something up to them. That's what you're kind of connecting the >>Absolutely. You have this velocity, uh, machine with a significant girth that you can now move to a new model. They move that to a new model. To Matt's point. They lead the industry, they change the way large swath the customers buy and you will see it in steady revenue growth over time. Okay. So I just in that, well, >>So your point is the focus and there the right it's the right focus. And I would agree what's >>What's the other move. What's their other move, >>The problem. Triple digit booking growth off a number that gets bigger >>Inspired. Okay. >>Whats what's the scoreboard. Okay. Now they're go at the growth. That's the scoreboard. What are the signals? Are you looking at on the scoreboard Crawford and Matt in terms of success? What are the benchmarks? Is it ecosystem growth, number of services, triple growth. Yeah. What's the, what are some of the metrics that you guys are gonna be watching and we should be watching? >>Yeah. I mean, I dunno if >>You wanna jump in, I mean, I think ecosystem's really critical. Yeah. You want to, you want to have well and, and you need to sell both ways like HPE needs to be selling their technology on other cloud providers and vice versa. You need to have the VMs of the world on, you know, offering services on your platform and, and kind of capturing some, some motion off that. I think that's pretty critical. The channel definitely. I mean, you have to help and what you're gonna see happen there is there will be channel partners that succeed in transforming and succeeding and there'll be a lot that go away and that some, some of that's, uh, generational there'll be people that just kind of age outta the system and, and just go home. >>Yeah. Yeah. So I would argue it's, it's, it's, it's gonna be, uh, bookings growth rate. It's gonna be retention rate of the, of, of, of the customers, uh, that they have. And then it's gonna be that, that, um, you know, ultimately you're gonna see revenue, um, growth, and which is that revenue growth is gonna have to be correlated to the booking's growth for green lake cross. >>What's the Achilles heel on, on HPE. If you had to do the SWAT, what's the, what's the w for HPE that they really need to pay >>Attention to. I mean, they, they need to continue their relentless focus on cost, particularly in the, in the core compute, you know, segment they need to be, they need to be able to be as cost effective as possible while the higher profit dollars associated with GreenLake and other services come in and then increase the overall operating margin and gross margin >>Picture for the, I mean, I think the biggest thing is they just have, they have to continue the motion that they've been on. Right. And they've been consistent about that. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> what you see where others have, have kind of slipped up is when you go to, to customers and you present the, the OPEX as a service and the traditional CapEx side by side, and the customers put in this position of trying to detangle what's in that OPEX service, you don't wanna do that obviously. And, and HP has not done that, but we've seen others kind of slip up. And, but >>A lot of companies still wanna buy CapEx. Right. Absolutely liquid. And, and I think, >>But you shouldn't do a, you shouldn't do that bake off by putting those two offers out. You should basically ascertain what they want to do. >>What's kind of what Dell does. Right. Hey, how, what do you want? We got this, we got >>This on one hand, we got this, the, we got that, right. Uh, the two hand sales rep, no, this CapEx. Thing's interesting. And if you're Amazon and Azure and, and GCP, what are they thinking right now? Cause remember what, four years ago outpost was launched, which essentially hardware. Yeah. This is cloud operating model. Yep. Yeah. They're essentially bringing outpost. This is what they got basically is Amazon and Azure, like, is this ABL on the radar for them? How would you, what, what are they thinking in your mind if we're on, if we're in their office, in their brain trust, are they laughing? Are they like saying, oh, they're scared. Is this real threat >>Opportunity? I, I, I mean, I wouldn't say they're laughing at all. I, I would say they're probably discounting a little bit and saying, okay, fine. You know, that's a strategy that a traditional hardware company is moving to. But I think if you look underneath the covers, you know, two years ago it was, you know, pretty basic stuff they were offering. But now when you start getting into some, you know, HPC is a service, you start getting into data fabric, you start getting into some of the more, um, sophisticated services that they're offering. And, and I think what's interesting about HP. What my, my take is that they're not gonna go after the 250 services the Amazon's offering, they're gonna basically have a portfolio of services that really focus on the core use cases of their infrastructure set. And, and I think one of the danger things, one, one of the, one of the red flags would be, if they start going way up the stack and wanting to offer the entire application stack, that would be like a big flashing warning sign, cuz it's not their sweet spot. It's not, not what they have. >>So machine learning, machine learning and quantum, okay. One you can argue might be up the stack machine learning quantum should be in their wheelhouse. >>I would argue machine learning is not up the stack because what they would focus on is inference. They'd focus on learning. If they came out and said, machine learning all the way up to the, you know, what a, what, what a drug discovery company needs to do. >>So they're bringing it down. >>Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, I think they're focusing on that middle layer, right? That, that, that data layer. And I think that helping companies manage their data make more sense outta their data structure, their data that's core to what they wanna do. >>I, I feel as though what they're doing now is table stakes. Honestly, I do. I do feel like, okay, Hey finally, you know, I say the same thing about apex, you >>Know, we finally got, >>It's like, okay guys, the >>Party. Great. Welcome to the, >>But the one thing I would just say about, about AWS and the other big clouds is whether they might be a little dismissive of what's truly gonna happen at the edge. I think the traditional OEMs that are transforming are really betting on that edge, being a huge play and a huge differentiator for them where the public cloud obviously have their own bets there. But I think they were pretty dismissive initially about how big that went. >>I don't, and I don't think anybody's really figured out the edge yet. >>Well, that's an, it's a battleground. That's what he's saying. I think you're >>Saying, but on the ecosystem, I wanna say up the stack, I think it's the ecosystem. That's gotta fill that out. You gotta see more governance tools and catalogs and AI tools and, and >>It immediately goes more, it goes more vertical when you go edge, you're gonna have different conversations and >>They're >>Lacking. Yeah. And they, but they're in there though. They're in the verticals. HP's in the, yeah, >>For sure. But they gotta build out an ego. Like you walk around here, the data, the number of data companies here. I mean, Starburst is here. I'm actually impressed that Starburst is here. Cause I think they're a forward thinking company. I wanna see that times a hundred. Right. I mean, that's >>You see HP's in all the verticals. That's I think the point here, >>So they should be able to attract that ecosystem and build that, that flywheel that's the, that's the hallmark of a cloud that marketplace. >>Yeah, it is. But I think there's a, again, I go back to, they really gotta stay focused on that infrastructure and data management. Yeah. >>But they'll be focused on that, but, but their ecosystem, >>Their ecosystem will then take it up from there. And I think that's the next stage >>And that ecosystem's gotta include OT players and communications technologies players as well. Right. Because that stuff gets kind of sucked up in that, in that edge play. Do >>You feel like HPE has a, has a leg up on that or like a little, a little bit of a lead or is it pretty much, you know, even raced right now? >>I think they've, I think the big infrastructure companies have all had OEM businesses and they've all played there. It's it's, it's also helping those OT players actually convert their own needs into more of a software play and, and not so much of >>Physical. You've been, you've been following and you guys both have been following HP and HPE for years. They've been on the edge for a long time. I've been focused on this edge. Yeah. Now they might not have the product traction that's right. Or they might not develop as fast, but industrial OT and IOT they've been talking about it, focused on it. I think Amazon was mostly like, okay, we gotta get to the edge and like the enterprise. And, and I think HP's got a leg up in my opinion on that. Well, I question is can they execute? >>Yeah. I mean, PTC was here years ago on stage talking >>About, but I mean, you think about, if you think about the edge, right. I mean, I would argue one of the best acquisitions this company ever did was Aruba. Right. I mean, it basically changed the whole conversation of the edge changed the whole conversation. >>If >>Became GreenLake, it was GreenLake. >>Well, it became a big department. They gave a big, but, but, but I mean, you know, I mean they, they, they went after going selling edge line servers and frankly it's very difficult to gain traction there. Yeah. Aruba, huge area. And I think the March announcement was when they brought Aruba management into. Yeah. Yeah. >>Totally. >>Last question. Love >>That. >>What are you guys saying about the, the Broadcom VMware acquisition? What's the, what are the implications for the ecosystem for companies like HPE and just generally for the it business? >>Yeah. So >>You start. Yeah, sure. I'll start, I'll start there. So look, you know, we've, you know, spent some time, uh, going through it spent some time, you know, speaking, uh, to the, to the, to the folks involved and, and, and I gotta tell you, I think this is a really interesting moment for Broadcom. This is Broadcom's opportunity to basically build a different kind of a conversation with developers to, uh, try to invest in. I mean, just for perspective, right? These numbers may not be exact. And I know a dollar is not a dollar, but in 2001, anybody, remember what HP paid for? Compact >>8,000,000,020, >>So 25 billion, 25 billion. Wow. VMware just got sold for 61 billion. Wow. Okay. Unbill dollars. Okay. That gives you a perspective. No, again, I know a dollar is not a dollar 2000. >>It's still big numbers, >>2022. So having said that, if you just did it to, to, to basically build your DCF model and say, okay, over this amount of time, I'll pay you this. And I'll take the money out of this period of time, which is what people have criticized them for. I think that's a little shortsighted. I, yeah, I think this is Broadcom's opportunity to invest in that product and really try to figure out how to get a seat at the table in software and pivot their company to enterprise software in a different way. They have to prove that they're willing to do that. And then frankly, that they can develop the skills to do that over time. But I do believe this is a, a different, this is a pivot point. This is not >>CA this is not CA >>It's not CA >>In my, in my mind, it can't be CA they would, they would destroy too much. Now you and I, Dave had some, had some conversations on Twitter. I, I don't think it's the step up to them sort of thinking differently about semiconductor, dying, doing some custom semi I, I don't think that's. Yeah. I agree with that. Yeah. I think I, I think this is really about, I got two aspiration for them pivoting the company. They could >>Justify the >>Price to the, getting a seat at the adults table in software is, >>Well, if, if Broadcom has been squeezing their supplies, we all hear the scutle butt. Yeah. If they're squeezing, they can use VMware to justify the prices. Yeah. Maybe use that hostage. And that installed base. That's kind of Mike conspiracy. >>I think they've told us what they're gonna do. >><laugh> I do. >>Maybe it's not like C what's your conspiracy theory like Symantec, but what >>Do you think? Well, I mean, there's still, I mean, so VMware there's really nobody that can do all the things that VMware does say. So really impossible for an enterprise to just rip 'em out. But obviously you can, you can sour people's taste and you can very much influence the direction they head in with the collection of, of providers. One thing, interesting thing here is, was the 37% of VMware's revenues sold through Dell. So there's, there's lots of dependencies. It's not, it's not as simple as I think John, you you're right. You can't just pull the CA playbook out and rerun it here. This is a lot more complex. Yeah. It's a lot more volume of, of, of distribution, but a fair amount of VMware's install >>Base Dell's influence is still there basically >>Is in the mid-market. It's not, it's not something that they're gonna touch directly. >>You think about what VMware did. I mean, they kept adding new businesses, buying new businesses. I mean, is security business gonna stay >>Networking security, I think are interesting. >>Same >>Customers >>Over and over. Haven't done anything. VMware has the same customers. What new >>Customers. So imagine simplifying VMware. Right, right. Becomes a different equation. It's really interesting. And to your point, yeah. I mean, I think Broadcom is, I mean, Tom Crouse knows how to run a business. >>Yeah. He knows how to run a business. He's gonna, I, I think it's gonna be, you know, it's gonna be an efficient business. It's gonna be a well run business, but I think it's a pivot point for >>Broadcom. It's amazing to me, Broadcom sells to HPE. They sell it to Dell and they've got a market cap. That's 10 X, you know? Yes. Yeah. All we gotta go guys. Awesome. Great conversation guys. >>A lot. Thanks for having us on. >>Okay. Listen, uh, day two is a, is a wrap. We'll be here tomorrow, all day. Dave ante, John furrier, Lisa Martin, Lisa. Hope you're feeling okay. We'll see you tomorrow. Thanks for watching the cube, your leader in enterprise tech, live coverage.

>>Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Cube's live coverage of snowflake summit 22. We are live at Caesar's forum in Vegas, Lisa Martin, with Dave ante, excited to welcome a VIP fresh from the keynote stage, the SAP, a product at snowflake Christian C Claman Christian. Thank you so much for joining us on the queue today. >>Thank you for having me very exciting. >>And thanks for bringing your energy, loved your keynote. I thought, wow. He is really excited about all of the announcements jam packed. We, and we didn't even get to see the entire keynote talk to us about, and, and for the audience, some of the things going on the product revenue in Q1 fiscal 23, 390 4 million, 85% growth, lot of momentum at snowflake. No doubt. >>So I think that the, the punch line is our innovation is if anything, gaining speed. Uh, we were over the moon excited to share many of these projects with customers and partners, cuz some of these efforts have been going on for multiple years. So, um, lots of interesting announcements across the board from making the existing workloads faster, but also we announced some new workloads getting into cyber security, getting into more transactional workloads with uni store. Um, so we're very excited. >>Well first time being back, this is the fourth summit, but the first time being back since 2019 a tremendous amount has changed for snowflake in that time, the IPO, the massive growth in customers, the massive growth in growth in customers with over 1 million in ARR, you talked about one of the things that clearly did not slow down during the last two years is innovation at snowflake. >>Yeah, that, that, that for, for sure, like, um, even though we, we had a, um, highly in the office culture, we did not miss a beat the moment that we said, Hey, let's all start doing zoom based calls. We, we did. So, uh, I dunno if you saw the, the first five minute minutes of my section in the keynote. Yeah. We, we originally talked about summarizing it and no we're gonna spend 40 minutes here. So we did a one minute clip and whatever gets flashed there. So no, the, the pace of innovation, I think it's second to none and maybe I'll highlight the something that we're very proud of. Snowflake is a single product, a single engine. So if we're making a query performance enhancement, it will help the cyber security workload and the low high concurrency, low latency workload. And eventually we're starting to see some of those enhancements all the way to uni store. So, so we get a lot of leverage out of our investments. What's >>Your favorite announcement? >>That's like picking children. Of course. Um, I think the native applications is the one that looks like, eh, I don't know about it on the surface, but it has the biggest potential to change everything like create an entire ecosystem of solutions for within a company or across companies that I don't know that we know what's possible. >>Well, I I've been saying for a while now that you have this application development stack over here, the database is kind of here and then you have the analytics and data pipeline stack. Those are those separate worlds. We, we talk about bringing data and AI and machine intelligence into applications. The only way that that is actually gonna move forward is if you bring those worlds together is a good example of that happening, um, within a proprietary framework, uh, it's probably gonna happen open source organically and you can sort of roll your own. Is that by design or is it just sort of happening? Well, >>The, the, they bring it all into a single platform obviously by design, cuz there is so much friction today on making all the pieces work together, which database do I use for transactions and how do I move data to my analytics system? And how do I keep system, uh, reference data in sync between the two? So, so it's complicated and our mission was remove all of this friction from, from, from the equation. Uh, the open source versus not the way we think about it is opensourcing open formats or even open APIs it's does it help us deliver the solution that we want for our customer? Does it help us solve their problems? In certain instances, it has done in the past and we've opened source frameworks in, in others. We mentioned at the keynote today, the, the integration of iceberg tables, that's an strong embrace of open technologies, but that does not mean that we want to continue to innovate in our formats. A lot of what you see in the open formats is because snowflake proprietary, uh, innovation. So, uh, we have a very clear philosophy around this. Well >>Like any cloud player, you have to bring open source tools in and make them available for your application developers. But take us through an example of, of uni store and specifically how you're embracing transaction data. What's a customer gonna actually do take us paint a picture >>For us. I I'm gonna give you a very simple use case, but I love it because it, it shows the power of the scenario today. When people are ingesting data into snowflake, you wanna do some book capping associating with those loads. So imagine I have, I dunno, a million files. How many of those files have I loaded? Imagine that one of those loads fail, how do you keep in sync? Whether the data made or not with your bookkeeping today, if you had to do it with a separate transactional database for the bookkeeping and the loading in, in snowflake, it is a lot of complexity for you to know what's where with uni store, you can just say, I'm gonna do the bookkeeping with these new table. It's called hybrid tables. The lows are transactional and all of this is a single transaction. So for, for anyone that has dealt with inconsistencies in database world, this is like a godsend. >>Okay. So my interpretation of that's all about what happens when something goes wrong >><laugh> which is a lot of the, everything about transactions. Yeah. It's what happens when goes wrong and goes wrong. Doesn't mean failures like goes wrong is when you're debiting money from your bank account, not having enough balance that counts as go wrong and the transactions should be aborted. So yes, transactions are all about conflict management and we're simplifying that in a broader set of use cases >>And, and in recovery. So you're, you're in fast recovery. So you're, you're the, the business impact of what you're doing is to sort of simplify that process. Is that the easy way to >>Boil down? Pretty much everything we do is about simplification. Like we, we we've seen organizations are large focusing on wrestling infrastructure as opposed to what are the business problems for a Frank who reference something that, that, that I believe very much in like, which is mission alignment. We are working on helping our customers achieve what they're set out to achieve, not giving them more technology for them to their goal to become, to wrestle the infrastructure. So it's all about ease of use all about simplification removal, friction, >>Just so if I may, so mission alignment, you know, you always hear about technology companies that, you know, provide infrastructure or a service, and then the customer takes that and, and, you know, monetizes it pretty much on their own. What the big change that I'm discerning from these announcements is you're talking about directly monetizing and participating in that monetization as a technology partner, but also the marketplace as well. >>Correct. And I would say in some ways this is not new. This has been happening for the last couple of years with data. Like if you just saw our industry data cloud launches, the financial services cloud, it comes with data providers that help you achieve specific outcomes on a specific industry. Mm-hmm <affirmative> what we're doing now is saying, it's not just data. Maybe it's some business logic, maybe it's some machine learning, maybe it's some user interface. So I think we're just turning the knob on collaboration and it's a continuation of what we've been doing. >>Talk a little bit more about mission alignment. When I heard Frank, Sweetman talk about that this morning. I always love that when I hear cultural alignment with organizations, but as you just said, it's really about enabling our customers to deliver outcomes to their customers as the SVP product. Can you, uh, talk a little bit about how the customers are influencing the product roadmap, the innovations and the speed with which things are coming out at snowflake? >>Yeah, so great question. We have several organizations at snowflake that are organized by vertical by industry. So the, the major sales organization is part of ed that the marketplace business development team is organized like that. We have a separate team that provides top leadership by industry vertical, um, globally. And then even within our solution engineering, there is verticals. So we have a longitudinal view of all the different functions and what do we need to do to achieve a set of use cases in a vertical? And all of those functions are in con constant communication with us on this is where the product is, um, seeing an opportunity or could do better for that vertical. So yeah, I can tell you, and obviously we love when, when there's alignment between those, but that's not always the case. You heard us talk about clean rooms now for some time, clean rooms are applicable to almost any industry, but it's red hot for media and advertising, third party, cookie deprecation, and all of that. So we, we get to, to see that lens, that our innovation is informed by industries. >>So we, we're seeing, obviously the evolution of snowflake we talked about in the keynotes today, you guys talked about 2019 and, you know, pre 2019, even it was to me anyway, your first phase was, Hey, we got a simpler EDW. You know, we're gonna pick that off and put it in the cloud and make it elastic and separate compute from storage, all that kind of cool stuff. And then during the pandemic, it was really IPO, but also the data cloud concept, you sort of laid that vision out. And now you're talking about application development, monetization, what I call the super cloud that layer. Right. Okay. So I, are >>You determin it best? >>Yes. You talk about this, uh, these announcements, how they fit into that larger vision where you're >>Going. Great question. The, the, the notion of the data cloud has not changed one bit. The data cloud thesis is that we want to provide amazing technology for our customers, but also facilitate collaboration and content exchange VR platform. And all that we did today is expand what that content can be. It's not just data or little helper function, it's entire applications, entire experiences. That is the, the summing up the, the, the impact of our announcements today. That, that that's the end of it. So it's still about the data cloud. >>So what is impressive to me is that you guys wouldn't couldn't have a company without the hyperscalers, right? It would be a lot different, right? So you built on top of that and, and now you have your customers building their own super clouds. I call it, I get a lot of grief for that term it's but the, the, the big area of criticism I get is, ah, that's just SAS. And I'm like, no, it's not, no, uh, I, I is everybody public who's announcing stuff. I, I better be careful, but you have customers that are actually building services, taking their data, their tooling, their proprietary information, and putting it on the snowflake data cloud and building their own clouds. Yeah. That's different. Then that's not multi-cloud, which is I can run on a different cloud and it's not, is it sass? If it feels like it's something new from a, from your perspective, is, is it different? >>I, I, I love that you called out that running on all clouds is not what we do right. This days, everyone is multi-cloud, you, you run on a VM or a container, and I multi-cloud check, no, we have a single platform that does multi-region multi-cloud but also cross region cross cloud globally, that that is the essence of what we're doing. So it, it is enabling new capabilities. >>I've I've also said, you know, in many respects, the super cloud hides, the underlying complexity, you think about things like exploiting graviton and a developer. Doesn't need to worry about that. You're gonna worry about that. Uh, but at the same time, they, the, as you get into the develop, the world of application development, some of your developers may want access to some of those cloud primitives. Are you providing both? What's the strategy there? >>Generally not in some areas, we, we, we, I would say bleed through some details that are material, but think of the reality of someone that wants to build a solution, it's really difficult to build an awesome solution in one cloud, Hey, you need to do this. What's the latest instance, and is gravity tank gonna help you or not all of that. Now do it for another one and then do it for another one. And I can tell you it's really difficult because we go through that exercise. Snowflake pouring to a new cloud is somewhere between one and two years of effort and not, not a small number of people because you're looking at security models and storage models. So that's the value that we give to anyone know, wants to build a solution and target customers in all three clouds. I >>Mean, people are still gonna do it themselves, but they're gonna spend a lot more and they're gonna lose their focus on what their real business is. And there'll still be that. I think that D DIY market is enormous for you guys, huge >>Opportunity. And there's also the question on what is the cost of that analysis and that effort. And can we amortize it on behalf of all of our customers? Like we talk about graviton, we have not talked about the many things that we evaluated that were not better price performance for our customers. That evaluation happened. That value was delivered by not moving there. >>And when you do it yourself, the curve looks like, okay, Hey, we can do it ourselves. We can make it pretty Inex. And then, and then the costs are gonna decline, but what really happens, like developing a mobile app, you gotta maintain it. And then if you don't have the scale and you don't have the engineering resources, you're just, the, the costs are gonna continue to go through the roof. I, >>I, I love that you compare it to mobile apps. Like, yeah. I still don't understand why every company that wants to build an app has to build two <laugh>. They got it. Yeah. There is no super cloud for the phone. >>Right. >>That's sort of our, our, our broad vision. Not yet. Not, not the phone, but the super cloud. Yeah, >>Yeah, absolutely. >>You >>Get it. This is, and you look out the ecosystem here. I mean, what a difference that you've been pointing this out, Lisa from, from, from 2019, a lot of buzz, it's all about innovation. You see this at, at thing at the reinvent is like the super bowl obviously. And you see that and it used to be, oh, how is, how is AWS gonna compete with snowflake and separate compute with stores? That's I, I feel like in a large way, that's all gone. It's like, okay, how do we like rise the whole, the whole industry? And that's really where the innovation is. >>We have an amazing partnership with AWS and they benefit from what we do. Yes. There's some competitive elements, but we're changing so many things creating so much opportunity that we're more aligned than not. Yeah. >>Last question for you is continuing on the part AWS partnership front, how does a partner like AWS and other partners, how do they fit into the data cloud narrative that you're talking about to customers? >>I would say that other than the one or two teams that are directly competitive, the rest of their teams are part of in data cloud. Like, uh, our relationship with SageMaker as an example is amazing. And a lot of what we wanna deliver to our customers is choice around machine learning, frameworks and tools. And they're part of the data cloud. We're working with them on how do you push down computation to avoid getting data out, to reinforce governance? So I, I would say that and, and go look at it that they have a hundred and something teams. So if two teams out of hundreds, uh, are, are the competitive element, we are largely aligned. And they're part of data cloud. >>Yeah. I mean, you, your customers consume a lot of compute and storage for, >>For a lot. Yes. >>AWS and, and also, you know, increasingly Azure and, and Google. I mean, it's, um, pretty amazing times, uh, Christian, I want to ask you about, um, couple of terms. Uh, one term that came up a couple of times today in Frank's keynote, he said, I'm not gonna call it a data mesh out kind of out of respect for the purists, which is cool, I thought, but then you had a customer stand up Geico and said, we're building a data. Mesh JPMC is, is speaking at this event, building a data mesh. And I look at things through that prism and say, okay, data mesh is about, you know, decentralization. Some, I I'd be curious as to whether or not you tick that box, but it's about building data products. It's about, uh, uh, self-service infrastructure. And it's about automated computational governance. You are actually tipping a lot of the ticking, a lot of those boxes and, and Mike, I guess the big one is, are, are you building a bigger walled garden? But I, I think you would say, no, it's a, it's a giant distributed network, but, but what, what, what do you say to that? We, >>The latter, the latter, yeah, giant distributed, open cloud and open in the sense that we want anyone to plug in and, and someone can say, well, but I cannot read your file formats. Sure. You can with what we announced today, but it's not about that. Our APIs are open. We have rest APIs. We have JDC ODC, probably most popular interfaces ever. Um, and we want everyone to be part of it. If anything, there's lots of areas that we would not want to go into ourselves cause we want partners and customers to go in there. So, no, we we're looking at a very broad ecosystem. We win based on the value created on top of the platform. Yeah. >>And I makes total sense to me. I mean, I think the imaculate conception of data mesh might be a purely open source version of snowflake. I just don't see that happening anytime soon. And so I, I think you're gonna, you are, I wrote about this creating a defacto standard and >>Exactly, and, and I don't like to get into the terminology that, oh, is the data measure? Not, no go look at the concepts like people used to say, but snowflake is not a data lake. Okay. What is the data lake? It's just a pattern. And if you follow the pattern and you can do it, that's fine. Then there's the, uh, emotional quasi-religious overlay open versus not, I think that's a choice. Not necessarily the concept, >>It's a moving target. I mean, I Unix used to be open. You know, that was the, I agree. Now, the reason why I do think the data mesh conversation is important is because Shaak Dani, when she defined data mesh, she pointed out in my view. Anyway, the problems of getting value outta data is that you go through these hyper specialized teams and they're they're blockers in the organization. And I think you in many respects are attacking that. And it's an organizational issue. >>The, the insights in the pattern are a hundred percent value and aligned with what we do, which is they, you want some amount of centralization, some amount of decentralization living in harmony. Uh, yeah. I have no problem with, with terminology. >>And the governance piece is, is, is massive. Especially it's the, the picture's becoming much more clear. Um, whatever's in the data cloud is a first class citizen, right? And you give all these wonderful benefits. I mean, the interesting thing, what you're doing with Dell and, and pure, I, I asked you that on the analyst call, it's a start. You know, I, I, I mean, >>And I said it briefly in, in, in the keynote this morning, we're publishing a set of standard conformance tests. So any storage system can plug into data cloud. >>Yeah. >>And by the way, it's based on S three APIs, another defect of standard. Like it's not a standard, but everyone is emulating that. And we're plugging >>Into that. Yeah. Nobody's complaining against, against S3 API >>About it is a, oh, it's not a Apache project. We shouldn't, who cares. Everyone has standard horizon net. That's it? >>Well, we've seen the mistakes of the past with this. I mean, look at, look at Hadoop, right? There was this huge battle between, you know, Cloudera and Horton works and map, oh, map bar is proprietary. Oh, Horton works is purely open. Cloudera is open. They're, they're all gone now. I mean, not gone, but they're just, they didn't have it. Right. You know, they, they got unfocused. I go back to Frank's book. They were trying to do too much to, to too many of those, the, the, the zoo animals and you can't fund it all >>To be effective for us. It's very important. I can give you, I don't know, 20 announcements or 50 announcements from the conference, but they're all going a singular goal. And it's, this do not trade off governance of data with the ability to get value out of data. That's everything we do. >>And that's critical for every company in every industry these days that has to be a data company to be, to survive, to be competitive, to be able to extract value from data. If data's currency, how do I leverage a tool like snowflake to be able to extract insights from it that I can act on and create value for my organization, Geico was on stage this morning. Everyone knows Geico and their beloved, um, gecko. Yeah. Is there another customer that you had that you think really articulates the value of the data cloud and to Dave's point how snowflake is becoming that defacto standard data platform? >>Well, we had Goldman Goldman Sachs on stage as well today. And he, he, he, he mentioned it that people think of Goldman as investment banking and all of that, but no, at the heart of what they do, there's a lot of data. And how do they make better decisions? So I think we could run through 20 different examples cuz your premise is the most important. Everything is a data problem. If it is not a data problem, you're not collecting the right data and getting the sense that you could be getting. >>These guys are public, right. >>Adobe. >>Yeah. Right. Adobe's doing it. Yeah. I dunno if the other one is, I don't wanna say, I'll have to ask you off camera, but the other financial firm building a super cloud, right. <laugh> yeah. I call it super cloud. So let be taking advantage of uni store. Yeah. To bring different data types in and monetize it. That's to me, that's the future of data. That's that's been the holy grail, right. >>We, we tried to emphasize that this is, is not a, Hey six, six months ago. We decided to do this. No, this is years in the making mm-hmm <affirmative>, which is why we were so excited to finally share it. Cuz you don't wanna say three years from now, we're gonna have something. No, it was the, now we have it. We have it in preview and it's working at it is as close to the holy grail as it gets. >>Yeah. I mean, look, pressure's on Kristin. Let's face it. Enterprise data warehouse failed to live up to the promises. Uh, certainly the data lakes fail to deliver master data management, all that's a Hadoop, all that stuff. There was a lot of hype around that. And a lot of us got really excited. Me included and then customers spent and they were underwhelmed. Yeah. So you know, you, you, you gotta deliver, you say it, you gotta do it. >>And correct. And then the, the other thing is I would say all of those waves of technology, there was no real better choice. >>Right. They added value. I wouldn't >>Debate that. You have to give it a shot. Like when you've bought 20 different appliances and you have all these silos and someone sells you, Hey, Hadoop will unify it. It sounds good. Just didn't do it. >>Yeah. And no debate that it brought some value for those that were agree. Sophisticated enough to deploy it. And I agree. Yeah. But, but this is a whole different ball game. >>Oh, everything we want to do is democratize and simplify mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. We could go build something that I don't know. 10 companies in the world could use. That's not the sweet spot. Like how do we advance like the, the state of value generation in the world? That's the scale that we're talking about is go make it easy, accessible for everyone. >>Governed >>Governance and imperative this these days it's law. Yes. So >>Yeah, you have to, but it's not, it's, that's a, that's a ch really difficult challenge to create what I'll call automated or computational governance in a federated manner. That's not trivial. >>And that's our thesis. Everything we're doing is snow park, big announcement today. Python. I I've had people tell me well, but Python should be easy to host the Python run time. Like you can do it. Like I think in a week it took us years. Why? Oh, secure. Oh, details a lot. And <inaudible> mentioned it like securing. That is no easy, uh, feed >>Christian. Thank you so much for joining Dave and me bringing your energy from the keynote stage to the cube, set, breaking down some of the major announcements that have come out today. There's no doubt that the flywheel of innovation at snowflake is alive well and moving quickly, >>Innovation is, uh, at an all time hat snowflake. Thank you for having me. All >>Right. Our pleasure Christian from our guest, Dave ante, Lisa Martin here live in Las Vegas at Caesar's forum covering snowflake summit 22. We right back with our next guest.

(upbeat music) >> Hey guys and girls. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Coupa Inspire 2022, from the Cosmopolitan, in bustling Las Vegas. Lisa Martin here, and as I mentioned, day two of our coverage and fresh from the main stage, Raja Hammoud joins me, the Executive Vice President of products at Coupa. Raja, welcome back to theCUBE and happy 10th anniversary at Coupa. >> Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you, and welcome back to Inspire. >> Thank you. It's so great- >> We're so happy you're here. >> It's great to be here. So you're just about coming up on your 10 anniversary with Coupa. You showed some great photos of your time there but you've seen, you've lived the evolution that is this rocket ship that's Coupa. >> Raja: It's been incredible journey. I really couldn't believe at first it's been 10. This is the longest I've ever been anywhere. And I honestly feel more refreshed and excited than even when I joined back in the day 10 years ago. And so much has changed, but also so much has not. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> The size of course. We were like 60 people when I joined, the product development team was one person in, in a product, roughly 12 engineers, and fast forward to the scale that's today, it's phenomenal difference. But what has not changed is the, the core values, how, the hustle, how people love working with each other, how we support customers, how we keep stepping up our game how we believe none of us is as smart as all of us, and the community keeps getting stronger and stronger. It's been, it's been really exciting journey. >> The theme of none of us is as smarter as all of us, I'm not sure if I got that right, but the idea is you feel that when you're talking to Coupa partners, I've had the opportunity to talk with Coupa partners and customers and Coupa folks that, that is not just a value statement, people are living that. >> Raja: Yeah. It's, it's everywhere. In the, in the company walls, outside the company walls, you often see product people in different organizations where, they start living in an ivory tower, they think they know everything, I mean, back to what we were discussing earlier about Barbara, when she talked about, get out of your doors, right? A lot of people can tend to do that. We always, from the beginning, believed in the best ideas are out there and you collaborate with each other. And I truly, truly believe that the success that we have achieved today to our community is in a large, large part, because we believed in that. So like on Monday, we hosted, I can't keep track of the number now, so, so many in-parallel Community Advisory Board meetings, and just talking to the products managers and everybody is buzzing with new ideas. And when we go back, there's so much new innovation that has just been co-created here in this conference, and this keeps going on and on and on. >> Lisa: Yeah. I like how you call it, the Community Advisory Board. I'm still used to hearing CAB as Customer Advisory Board, but what Coupa has built, especially with the launch of the Moonshot, the, the community AI, is, is just that. >> Yes. >> It's a very collaborative community. One of the things that's around here, hashtags everywhere, but #United by the Power of Spend. >> Yes. >> What does that mean to you as the EVP of products, and what do you think that means to the community? >> When I think... What we are doing, we're building this platform that is powering all these businesses out there. And the reality of it is you can only, only do so much when you try to do things alone. When we are doing things together, we are way more successful, we are more profitable, we are more sustainable, we are more efficient. And community.ai from a technology standpoint, is making that happen, because what we are doing is taking AI, applying it to all this 3.3 trillion in data, and then bringing back prescriptions that we give back to each and every customer so that everybody can see where they are, how they up their games, and we connect them with other people like them. Now, people love coming to conferences like this, but even in conferences like this, if you think about it, the people you're going to meet, it's, some people are going to do matchmaking but you are also losing an opportunities of meeting the maximum number of people who've done exactly the thing that you did. But when you have the ability to look at all of that data and you can match make people. So we did that already with, for sourcing professionals. So if you are somebody who source a certain category, we can tell somebody else has done something like this in this geography and we offer you to connect to each other. >> Lisa: Wow. >> So this is incredibly powerful way where we are really uniting the whole community by spend, making everybody truly stronger together. >> Lisa: Matchmaker in, in a sense. >> It is matchmaking. >> But it's, but it's- >> It's Spend matchmaking. >> Spend matchmaking, but it's also the opportunity to unite professionals across sourcing, procurement- >> Raja: Yes. >> ... finance, treasury. >> Raja: Yes. >> To your point, and, and Rob said this in his keynote, and he said it here on theCUBE, you know, we've got to break down these silos. >> Raja: Yes. >> People and companies functioning in silos are not going to be successful. >> Raja: Yes. This has been one of the, probably one of the things that we were talking earlier, what has changed, what hasn't. This is one of the fundamental things that has never changed since I've joined. The vision has been very clear. The execution on it, of how we drive successful business spend management program is by breaking down the silos and this idea of sweet synergy, where in product, you start building these capabilities that helps these professionals in the different organizations to actually connect on the touch points, where, where things really matter. >> Lisa: Sweet synergy, was that thing from a concept perspective, did that come from the community, in terms of Coupa going, this is actually what's happening, this synergy across the BSM suite? >> Yes. So in the very beginning, it was early idea. I would say in the first two Inspires that we did, we hadn't given it actually the name itself, and we used to call it unified capabilities, and it started with the first silos we broke down. The first silos we broke down were procurement and AP. And they didn't even used to talk in the same room or even want to care about each other. So we started building so many capabilities that brought these teams together and little by little the community started to feel that and see the value of that. And then the community started to ask us to go break down more silos. So in the beginning, I would say the, the vision before I even joined, the company was on that trajectory. And the early customers saw that and they championed it and then they drove us to do more. So they came to us and said could you please do what you did here in contract? Could you please do what you did here in sourcing? And I was in a meeting last week, a leadership meeting, and one question was asked to leaders in the services team about what are they hearing about, from the customers, about a particular area. And it was music to our ears when we heard the customers are asking for more synergy, right? So, they even have the name for it and they're asking for more and more, and we have built hundreds of these already, but the reality is there is so much opportunity. >> Lisa: Right. >> The world is siloed, no technology has attempted to do that. And I think that's what's a exciting is to go and forge new grounds and do something very special to unite everyone together. >> You guys talked about the waves. Rob talked about the waves yesterday. You talked about it again this morning. And when I think of Inspired community, as that third wave, I see it on both sides. I see the Inspired community that is the Coupa community, but also what you just talked about, that flywheel of that sort of symbiotic relationship that you guys have with your customers as Coupa in and of itself being in a community inspired by the community that it has built. >> Raja: Yes, it's, it's very, very, it's a circular effect. Like it, we inspire one another, and we strengthen one another, and it's, it's just a beautiful, beautiful thing. One of the special things that we are starting to do is we want to take the whole product experience itself, to be a complete community experience. So anywhere you are going to Coupa, when it makes sense, of course, you are not only looking at your data, you are getting connected with people for that particular thing. So we've done that already for 15 different product areas and we're constantly doing more and more and more and more. You can imagine one day we can, where we can start within the product pages themselves, where we host community experts to talk via video and connect with others. So you bring that whole community experience alive in a product in enterprise software, which has not been done. >> Kind of like creating your own influencer network. >> Yes, yes, yes. And give people their voice and, and, and it becomes exciting. It is very different when you're just working on your own and driving goals, and you have no idea how good that can pass on the world. And then when right then and there, you get to learn that some people have hit that, some people have achieved these goals, you just get excited, "I want to hit that goal too. Who are these people? Connect me with these leaders. Let's have a conversation. How did they do it?" And they start creating best practices together. We even have started places where they collaborate on actual documents and templates, and they put them in the community exchange as a way for people to share with others, even taking templates from the product putting them back into a community exchange. So it is sharing, being enabled on the platform, platform itself. >> Lisa: How did you guys function during the pandemic, the last two years when we couldn't get together? >> Raja: Yeah. >> I know that your customers are really the lifeblood of Coupa and vice versa. >> Raja: Yes. >> But talk to me about some of the things that Coupa did with its customers, you know, by video conferencing, for example, that really helped the evolution and some of the innovations that you announced this morning. >> When we first... when the pandemic first hit I think like we all didn't believe what, what is going on. And there was this, I would call it a beautiful period in a way, despite how horrific that was, and that period was where everyone rose to the occasion, everybody wanted to help one another. Across Coupa everywhere, we started having documents of how can step up and help our customers, help our communities. We started to look at how we get PPE, and get it in the hands of our customers. We have access to suppliers. We started looking at helping suppliers with digital payments to speed things up. So, so many things we started doing as a community to just help each other. And then as we got to the next level, then we started, of course, starting to do things over, over zoom. And the big surprise, was we were incredibly productive. If anything, we were worried about people feeling burnt out. >> Yeah. >> Because they were just in it, completely in it. And it created a lot of new avenues for us because often you go and do these meetings in person. Now you could have a user experience session with a customer very easily, they're available more often than they used to. >> Lisa: Right. >> So we did not miss a beat with the community. We moved into virtual caps. We had the advantage of having them recorded as well, where we could have the global development teams learn and see exactly what the, what the customers are are co-creating together. And our goal lives accelerated, because a lot of these implementations, they used to happen in person, so schedules, they actually got accelerated- >> Lisa: Right. >> ...through that. Now of course, there is nothing that matches to this. You can do it, you can do a lot, but a ton of the collaboration comes from real life dialogue and kind of conversation. So it's that balance between the two that I think will be great. >> Lisa: What are some of the things that you've heard the last few days? You mentioned the Partners Summit and, and the Community Advisory Boards on Monday, yesterday, everything kicked off today. What are some of the things that you've heard in your meetings that really inspire you on say the next 10 years at Coupa? >> Raja: By far, by far, by far, it's a validation of, that what we are doing is, we're absolutely on target with it, and that, we just can do so much more. The silos are massive and there are so so many opportunities that you hear in every different areas that we could be doing this, we could be doing this together. So we can break down more and more silos. And using community.ai is just the tip of the iceberg of what we are, what we are doing. Yes, we created tens and tens of capabilities, helping, helping the community with all of that, but data drives everything. And when you look at that, every single process in every single silo can be informed by the power of data within your own company, and then even better, data across. And, and to the point where we're talking about concepts that customers are really excited about, even thinking about this community, they're customers of each other. And when you are a customer of each other what are the different ways as a community, you can help one another more. So we're talking about community netting as new types of concepts. >> Lisa: Talk to me a little about that. You mentioned the community netting this morning but I didn't quite... Help me understand. >> Raja: It is very simple terms is if, if we are buying from each other and we have to do money movements every time I have to pay you, I have to incur fees and likewise, but since we are part of this community we can manage that relationship. So we just pay the Delta, we net it out. So it, it saves reconciliation times it saves money movement. And these are tip of the icebergs of these very cool things that we're doing together. >> Wow. That's fantastic. Last question for you, as you talk with prospects who are in the early stages, or, or still determining, do we go through like a supply chain digital transformation? I mean, I think of companies that probably haven't now or need to get on the bandwagon. >> Raja: Yeah. >> What are some of the things that you advise to those customers to be able to do what Mick Ebeling talked about this morning and that is, commit and then figure it out? >> Raja: Yes. The number one thing is just make sure you don't do the analysis paralysis. There are just so many opportunities so many opportunities start with a project, get going, and it creates incredible momentum, and then you can move on from one to another, to another, to another, instead of trying to just go for a year or two, trying to look at how the world has changed in that process. And so often you could see that projects pay for themselves within the first month of go life. You do that, you'll create another one. And it's not like you are coming in to do something so new nobody has done. Hundreds and hundreds and thousands as a matter of fact, of other community members have done that. It is proven. So get started with those and then continue. Other things I will be talking to them about is to make sure that they understand the way we work is all about partnerships spread. Often people who haven't worked with us in the enterprise software, they're used to working with vendors. We are not that. We never were that. Like the number one, if we're not going to be real partners, honest, transparent and work with each other, we don't waste each other's time. >> Lisa: Well, Raja, it's been great having you on the program. I've really enjoyed your keynote this morning. Congratulations on your 10 years at Coupa. >> Raja: Thank you. >> I'm excited to see what the next 10 years brings for you. We appreciate your insites and everything that Coupa is doing in partnership with its customers is very evident in an event like this. >> Raja: Thank you. And thank you for coming and covering us as well. We really appreciate it. >> Lisa: It's our pleasure to be here. >> Thank you. >> For Raja Hammoud, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's coverage, day two of Coupa Inspire 2022, from Las Vegas. (upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome to this CUBE Unstoppable Domain Showcase. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We've been showcasing all the great content about Web3 and what's going around the corner for Web4. Of course, Unstoppable Domains is one of the big growth stories in the business. Brad Kam, the Co-founder is here with me, of Unstoppable Domains, Brad, great to see you, thanks for coming on this showcase. >> Thanks, pleasure for having me. >> So you have a lot of history in the Web3. They're calling it now, but it's basically crypto and blockchain. You know, the white paper came out and then, you know how it developed was organically. We saw how that happened. Now you're the co-founder of Unstoppable Domains. You're seeing the mainstream, I would say mainstream scene, Superbowl commercials, okay? You're seeing it everywhere. So it is here. Stadiums are named after cryptos, companies. It's here. Hey, it's no longer a fringe, it is reality. You guys are in the middle of it. What's going on with the trend, and where does Unstoppable fit in and where do you guys tie in here? >> I mean, I think that what's been happening in general, this whole revolution around cryptocurrencies and then NFTs and what Unstoppable Domain is doing. It's all around creating this idea that people can own something that's digital. And this hasn't really been possible before Bitcoin. Bitcoin was the first case. You could own money. You don't need a bank, no one else. You know, you can completely control it. No one else can turn you off. Then there was this next phase of the revolution, which is, assets beyond just currencies. So NFTs, digital art. What we're working on is like a decentralized identity, like a username for Web3 and each individual domain name is an NFT. But yeah, it's been a crazy ride over the past 10 years. >> It's fun because, you know, on siliconangle.com, which we founded, we were covering early days of crypto. In fact, our first website, the developer want to be paid in crypto. It's interesting. Price of Bitcoin, I won't say that how low it was. But then you saw the ICO Wave, the token started coming in. You started seeing much more engineering focus, a lot of white papers coming out, a lot of cool ideas. And then now you got this mainstream of this. So I got to ask you, what are the coolest things you guys are working on, because Unstoppable has a solution that solves a problem today, and that people are facing at the same time, it is part of this new architecture. What problem do you guys solve right now that's in market that you're seeing the most traction on? >> Yeah, so it's really about, so whenever you interact with a blockchain, you wind up having to deal with one of these really, really crazy public keys, public addresses. And they're like anywhere from 20 to 40 characters long, they're random, they're impossible to memorize. And going back to even early days in crypto, I think people knew that this tech was not going to go mainstream if you have to copy and paste these things around. If I'm getting ready to send you like a million dollars, I'm going to copy and paste some random string of numbers and letters. I'm going to have no confirmations about who I'm sending it to, and I'm going to hope that it works out. It's just not practical. People have kind of always known there was going to be a solution. And one of the more popular ideas was, doing kind of like what DNS did, which is, instead of having to deal with these crazy IP addresses, this long random string of numbers to find a website, you have a name like a keyword, something that's easy to remember. You know, like a hotels.com or something like that. And so what NFT domains are, is basically the same thing, but for blockchain addresses. And yeah, it's just better and easier. There's this joke that everybody, you know, if you want to send me money, you're going to send me a test transaction of, you know, like a dollar first, just to make sure that I get it. Call me up and make sure that I get it before you go and send the big amount. Just not the way of moving billions of dollars of value is going to work in the future. >> Yeah, and I think one of the things you just point out, make it easier. When you have these new waves, these shifts, we saw it with the web pages. More and more web pages were coming on, more online users. They called it the online populations growing. Here, the same thing's happening. And if the focus is on ease of use, making things simpler to understand, and reducing the step it takes to do things, right? This is kind of what's going on and with the developer community, and what Ethereum has done really well is, brought in the developers. So that's the convergence of all the action. And so, when you (John chuckles) so that's where you're at right now. How do you go forward from here? Obviously, there's business development deals to do, you guys are partnering a lot. What's the strategy? What are some of the things that you can share about some of your business activity that points to how mainstream it is and where it's going? >> So I think the way to think about an NFT domain name is that it's meant to be like your identity on Web3. So, it's going to have a lot of different context. So it's kind of like your Venmo account, where you could send me money to brad.crypto, can be your decentralized website, where you can check out my content at brad.crypto. It can also be my like login kind of like a decentralized Facebook O oth, where I can log into DApps and share information about myself and bring my data along with me. So it's got all of these different things that it can do, but where it's starting is inside of crypto wallets and crypto apps, and they are adopting it for this identity idea. And it's the same form of identity across all your apps. That's the thing that's new here. So, yeah, that's the really big and profound shift that's happening. And the reason why this is going to be maybe even more important than a lot of, you know, your listeners think is that, everyone's going to have a crypto wallet. Every person in the world is going to have a crypto wallet. Every app, every consumer app that you use is going to build one in. Twitter just launched, just built one. Reddit is building one. You're seeing it across all the consumer finance apps. So it's not just the crypto companies that you're thinking of, every app's going to have a wallet. And it's going to really change the way that we use the internet. >> I think there's a couple things you pointed. I want to get your reaction to and thoughts more on this concept of DApps or decentralized applications, DApps or depending on what you call it. This is applications. And that take advantage of the architecture, and then this idea of users owning their own data. And this absolutely reverses the script today. Today, you see Facebook, you see LinkedIn, all these silos, they own the data that you are the product. Here, the users are in control. They have their data, but the apps are being built for it for the paradigm shift here, right? That's what's happening. Is that right? >> Totally, totally. And so, it all starts. I mean, DApp is just this crazy term. It feels like it's this, like really foreign, weird thing. All it means is that you sign in with your wallet instead of signing in with a username and password, where the data is stored inside of that app. Like inside of Facebook. So that's the only real, like, core underneath difference to keep in mind, signing in with the wallet. But that is like a complete sea change in the way the internet works. Because I have this key, this private key, it's on my phone or my device or whatever. And I'm the only one that has it. So, if somebody wanted to hack me, they need to go get access to my device. Two years ago, when Twitter got hacked, Barack Obama and Elon Musk were tweeting the same stuff. That's because Twitter had all the data. And so, you needed to hack Twitter instead of each individual person. It's a completely different security model. It's way better for users to have that. But, if you're thinking from the user perspective, what's going to happen is, is that instead of Facebook storing all of my data, and then me being trapped inside of Facebook, I'm going to store it, and I'm going to move around on the internet, logging in with my Web3 username, my NFT domain name, and I'm going to have all my data with me. And then I could use 100 different Facebooks all in one day. And it would be effortless for me to go and move from one to the other. So, the monopoly situation that we exist in as a society is because of the way data storage works and- >> So that's a huge point. So let's double down on that for one more second. This is a huge point. I want to get your thoughts. So I think people don't understand that in the mainstream having that horizontal traversal or ability to move around with your identity in this case, your Unstoppable Domain and your data allows the user to take it from place to place. It's like going to other apps that could be like Facebook, where the user's in charge. And they're either deciding whether to share their data or not, or they're certainly continuate their data. And this allows for more of a horizontal scalability for the user, not for a company. >> Yeah, and what's going to happen is, as users are building up their reputation. They're building up their identity in Web3. So you have your username and you have your profile and you have certain badges of activities that you've done. And you're building up this reputation. And now apps are looking at that, and they're starting to create social networks and other things to provide me services because it started with the user. And so, the user is starting to collect all this valuable data, and then apps are saying, well, hey, let me give you a special experience based on that. But the real thing, and this is like the core, I mean, this is just like a core capitalist idea, in general. If you have more competition, you get a better experience for users. We have not had competition in Web2 for decades because these companies have become monopolies. And what Web3 is really allowing is, this wide open competition. And that's the core thing. Like, it's not like, you know, it's going to take time for Web3 to get better than Web2. You know, it's very, very early days. But the reason why it's going to work is because of the competitive aspect here. Like it's just so much better for consumers when this happens. >> I would also add to that, first of all, great point, great insight. I would also add that the web presence technology based upon DNS specifically is, first of all, it's asking, so it's not foreign characters, it's not Unicode for the geeks out there. But that's limiting too, it limits you to be on a site. And so, I think the combination of kind of inadequate or antiquated DNS has limitations. So if... And that doesn't help communities, right? So when you're in the communities, you have potentially marketplaces that could be anywhere. So if you have ID, I'm just kind of thinking it forward here. But if you have your own data and your own ID, you can jump into a marketplace, two-sided marketplace anywhere. An app can provide that, if the community's robust, this is kind of where I see the use case going. How do you guys, do you guys agree with that statement and how do you see that ability for the user to take advantage of other competitive or new emerging communities or marketplaces? >> So I think it all comes down. So identity is just this huge problem in Web2. And part of the reason why it's very, very hard for new marketplaces and new communities to emerge is 'cause you need all kinds of trust and reputation. And it's very hard to get real information about the users that you're interacting with. If you're in the Web3 paradigm, then what happens is, is you can go and check certain things on the blockchain to see if they're true. And you can know that they're true 100%. You can know that I have used Uniswap in the past 30 days, and OpenSea in the past 30 days. You can know for sure that this wallet is mine. The same owner of this wallet also owns this other wallet, owns this asset. So having the ability to know certain things about a stranger is really what's going to change behavior. And one of the things that we're really excited about is being able to prove information about yourself without sharing it. So I can tell you, hey, I'm a unique person. I'm an American, I'm not an American, but I don't have to tell you who I am. And you can still know that it's true. And that concept is going to be what enables what you're talking about. I'm going to be able to show up in some new community that was created two hours ago, and we can all trust each other that a certain set of facts are true. And that's possible because- >> And exchange value with smart contracts and other with no middle men involved activities, which is the promise of the new decentralized web. All right, so let me ask you a question on that. Because I think this is key. The anonymous point is huge. If you look at any kind of abstraction layers or any evolution in technology over the years, it's always been about cleaning up the mess or extending capabilities of something that was inadequate. We mentioned DNS, now you got this. There's a lot of problems with Web2, 2.0, social bots. You mentioned bots. Bots are anonymous and they don't have a lot of time in market. So it's easy to start bots, and everyone who does either scraping bots, everyone knows this. What you just pointed out was, in an ops environment that was user choice, but has all the data that could be verified. So it's almost like a blue check mark on Twitter without having your name, kind of- >> It's going to be 100s of check marks, but exactly. 'Cause there's so many different things that you're going to want to communicate to strangers, but that's exactly the right mental model. It's going to be these check marks for all kinds of different contexts. And that's what's going to enable people to trust that they're, you know, you're talking to a real person or you're talking to the type of person you thought you were talking to, et cetera. But yeah, it's, you know, I think that the issues that we have with bots today are because Web2 has failed at solving identity. I think Facebook at one point was deleting half a billion fake accounts per quarter. Something like the entire number of user profiles they were deleting per year. So it's just a total- >> And they spring up like mushrooms. They just pop up, to think that's the problem. I mean, the data that you acquire in these siloed platforms is used by them, the company. So you don't own the data, so you become the product as the cliche goes. But what you guys are saying is, if you have an identity and you pop around to multiple sites, you also have your digital footprints and your exhaust that you own. Okay, that's time, that's reputation data. I mean, you can cut it any way you want, but the point is, it's your stuff over time, that's yours. And that's immutables on the blockchain, you can store it and then make that permanent and add to it. >> Exactly. >> That's a time based thing versus today, bots that are spreading misinformation can get popped up when they get killed. They just start another one. So time actually is a metric for quality here. >> Absolutely. And people already use it in the crypto world to say like, hey, this wallet was created greater than two years ago. This wallet has had transactions for at least three or four years. Like this is probably a real, you know, this is probably a legitimate user. And anybody can look that up. I mean, we can we go look it up together right now on Etherscan, it would take a minute. >> Yeah, (indistinct). Yeah, I'm a big fan, I can tell, I love this product. I think you guys are going to do really well. Congratulations, I'm a big fan. I think this is needed. What are some of the deals you've done? blockchain.com is one and Opera. Can you take us through those deals and why they're working with you? Let's start with blockchain.com. >> Yeah, so the whole thing here is that, this identity standard for Web3 apps need to choose to support it. So, you know, we spent several years as a company working to get as many crypto wallets and browsers and crypto exchanges to support this identity standard. Some of the largest and probably most popular companies to have done this are, blockchain.com, for example, blockchain.com, one of the largest crypto wallets in the world. And you can use your domain names instead of crypto addresses. And this is super cool because blockchain.com in particular focuses on onboarding new users. So they're very focused on how we're going to get the next 4 billion internet users to use this tech. And they said, usernames are going to be essential. Like, how can we onboard this next several billion people if we have to explain to them about all these crazy addresses. And it's not just one, like we want to give you 10, 40 character addresses for all these different contexts. Like, it's just no way people are going to be able to do that without having a user name. So, that's why we're really excited about what blockchain.com's doing. They want to train users that this is the way you should use the tech. >> Yeah, and certainly no one wants to remember. I remember how writing down all my... You know, I was never a big wallet fan 'cause of all the hacks I used to write it down and store it in my safe. But if the house burns down or I kick the can who's going to find it, right? So again, these are all important things. Your key storing it, securing it, super important. Talk about Opera. That's an interesting partnership because it's got a browser that people know what it is. What are they doing different? Almost imagine they're innovating around the identity and what people's experiences with what they touch. >> Yeah, so this is one of those things that's a little bit easier and I strongly encourage everybody to go and try DApps after this. 'Cause this is going to be one of those concepts, it can be a little easier if you try it than if you hear about it. But the concept of a wallet and a browser are kind of merging. So it makes sense to have a wallet inside of your browser. Because when you go to a website, the website's going to want you to sign in with your wallet. So having that be in one app is quite convenient for users. And so Opera was one of the trailblazers, a traditional browser that added a crypto wallet so that you can store money in there. And then also added support for domain names for payments and for websites. So, you can type in brad.crypto and you can send me money, or you can type in brad.crypto into the browser and you can check out my website. I've got a little NFT gallery. You can see my collection up there right now. So that's the idea is that, browsers have this kind of superpower in Web3. And what I think is going to happen, Opera and Brave have been kind of the trailblazers here. What I think is going to happen is that, these traditional browsers are going to wake up and they're going to see that integrating a wallet is critical for them to be able to provide services to consumers. >> I mean, it is an app. I mean, why not make it a DApps as well? Because why wouldn't I want to just send you crypto, like Venmo, you mentioned earlier, which people can understand that concept. Venmo, let me make my cash. Same concept here. But built in to the browser, which is not a browser anymore it's a reader, a DApp reader, basically with a wallet. All right, so what does this mean for you guys and the marketplace? You got Opera pushing the envelope on browsing, changing the experience, enabling the applications to be discovered and navigated and consumed. You got blockchain.com with the wallets and being embedded there. Good distribution. Who are you looking for for partners? How do people partner? Let's just say theCUBE wants to do NFTs, and we want to have a login for our communities, which are all open. How do we partner with you? Or do we? We have to wait or is there a... I mean, take us through the partnership strategy. How do people engage with Unstoppable Domains? >> Yeah, so, I mean, I think that if you're a wallet or a crypto exchange, it's super easy, we would love to have you support being able to send money using domains. We also have all sorts of different kind of marketing activities we can do together. We can give out free stuff to your communities. We have a bunch of education that we do. We're really trying to be this onboarding point to Web3. So there's, I think a lot of cool stuff we can do together on the commercial side and on the marketing side. And then the other category that we didn't talk about was DApps. And we now have this login with ensemble domains, which you kind of alluded to there. And so you can log in with your domain name and then you can give the app permission to get certain information about you or proof of information about you, not the actual information, if you don't want to share it, because it's your choice and you're in control. And so, that would be another thing. Like, if you all launch a DApps, we should absolutely have login with Unstoppable there. >> Yeah, there's so much headroom here. You got a short term solution with exchange. Get that distribution, I get that, that's early days of the foundation, push the distribution, get you guys everywhere. But the real success comes in for the login. I mean, the sign in single sign in concept. I think that's going to be powerful, great stuff. Okay, future, tell us something we don't know about Unstoppable Domains that people might be interested in. >> I think the thing that you're going to hear about a lot from us in the future is going to be around this idea of identity, of being able to prove that you're a human and be able to tell apps that. And apps are going to give you all kinds of special access and rewards and all kinds of other things, because you gave 'em that information. So that's probably, that's the hint I'm going to drop. >> You know, it's interesting, Brad. You bring trust, you bring quality verified data, choose intelligence software and machine learning, AI and access to distributed communities and distributed applications. Interesting to see what the software does with that. Cause it traditionally didn't have that before. I mean, just in mind blowing. I mean, it's pretty crazy. Great stuff. Brad, thanks for coming on. Thanks for sharing the insight. The Co-founder of Unstoppable Domains, Brad Kam. Thanks for stopping by theCUBE's Showcase with Unstoppable Domains. >> Thanks for having me. (bright upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome to theCUBE's presentation with Unstoppable Domains. It's a showcase we're featuring all the best content in Web 3 and with unstoppable showcase, I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We got a great guest here, Matt Mickiewicz who's the Chief Revenue Officer of Unstoppable Domains. Matt, welcome to the showcase, appreciate it. >> Thank you for having me. >> So the theme of this segment is the potential of the Web 3 marketplace with Unstoppable Domains. You're the Chief Revenue Officer, you guys have a very interesting concept that's going extremely well, congratulations. But you're using NFTs for access and domains, Of course through the metaverse is huge. People want their own domains, but it's not just like real estate in the sense of a website. It's bigger than that it's a lot going on. So take us through what is the value proposition and what is the product? >> Absolutely, so for the past 20 years, most of us have been interacting on the internet using usernames issued to us by big corporations like Facebook, Google, Twitter, TikTok, Snapchat, et cetera. Whenever we get these usernames for free it's because we and our data are the product. As some of the recent leaks in the media have shown incentive individual in companies are not always aligned. And most importantly individuals are not in control of their own digital identity and the data, which means they can economically benefit from the value they create online. Think of Twitter as a two-sided marketplace with 0% revenue share back to its creators. We're now having in the creator economy and we believe that individuals should see the economic rewards of what they do and create online. That's what we are trying to do in** support of domains is provide user own and control identity to four and a half billion internet users. >> It's interesting to see change that's happening with Web3 and just in cultural terms, users are expecting to be part of the creator the personality of the company, there's this almost this intermediation of the middle man whether it's an ad network or a gatekeeper of any kind people going direct, right? So if I'm an artist, I can go direct to my fans. >> Exactly, so Web3 really shifts the power away from a aggregators. Aggregators and marketplaces have been some of the best business models for the last 20 years onto the internet. But Web3 is going to dramatically change all over the next decade. Bring more power back in the hands of consumers. >> What type of companies do you guys work with and partner with that we see out there? Give us some examples of the kinds of companies you're doing business with end partnering with. >> Yeah, so let's talk about use cases first actually. Was the big use case that we identified initially for NFT domain names was around cryptocurrency transfers. Anyone who's ever bought cryptocurrency and tried to transfer it between accounts or wallets is familiar with these awkwardly long hexa decimal strings of random numbers and letters, or even if you make a single type of money is lost forever. That's a pretty scary experience that exists today. That 2 trillion asset dollar as a class with 250 million users. So the first set of partners that we worked on integrating with, we're actually crypto wallets and exchanges. So we will allow users to do is replace all their long hexa decimal wallet addresses with a single human readable name, like John.NFT or MattMickiewicz.crypto to allow for simple crypto transfers. >> And how do the exchange work with you guys on that is it a plugin, is it co-locating code together? What's the relationship between exchanges and Unstoppable Domains? >> Yeah, absolutely great question. So exchanges actually have to do a little bit of engineering list to work with us and they can do that by either using our resolution libraries or using one of our APIs in order to look up an Unstoppable Domain and figure out all the wallet addresses that's associated with that name. So today we work with dozens of the world's top exchanges and wallets ranging from OKX to Coinbase wallet, to Trust wallet, to bread wallet, and many many others. >> I got to ask you on the wallet side, is that a requirement in terms of having specific code and are the wallets that you work well with? Explain the wallet dynamic between Unstoppable Domains and wallets. >> Yeah, so wallets all have this huge usability problem for their users because every single cryptocurrency held by every single one of their users has a different hexadecimal wallet address. And once again every user is subject to the same human fallacies and errors where if they make a single type their money can be lost forever. So what we enable these wallets to do is to make crypto transfer simple and less scary than the current status quo by giving the users an Unstoppable name that they can use to attach to all the wallet addresses on the back end. So companies like Trust Wallet for example, which has 10 million user or Coinbase Wallet. When you go to the crypto transfer fields, there you can just type in an unstoppable name It'll correctly route the currency to the right person, to the right wallet, without any chance for human error. >> When these big waves coming out I got to ask this question, 'cause a lot of people in the mainstream are getting into it now. It reminds me of the web wave that hit the big thing was how many people are coming online, was one of the key metrics and how many web pages are being developed was another metric, which meant that people were building out webpages. And it's hard to look back and think, wow, that was actually a KPI. So internet users and webpages where the two proxies 'cause then search engines came out and everything else happened. So I got to ask you, there are people watching, they're seeing it on commercials on TV, they're seeing it everywhere stadiums are named after crypto companies. So, the bottom line is people want to know how NFT domains take the fear out of working with crypto and sending crypto. >> Yeah, absolutely, so imagine we had to navigate the web using IP addresses rather than typing in Google.com. You'd have to type in a random string of numbers that you'd had to memorize. That would be super painful for users and internet wouldn't have gotten to where it is today with almost 5 billion people online. The history of computer networks we have human readable naming systems built on top in every single instance, it's almost crazy that we got to a $2 trillion asset class with 250 million users worldwide. 13 years after the Satoshi white paper, without a human readable naming system other Unstoppable Domains in a few of our competitors, that's a fundamental problem that we need to solve in order to go from 250 million crypto users in 2022 to 5 billion crypto users a decade from now. >> And just to point out, not to look back and maybe make a correlation but I will, if you look at the naming system of DNS, what it did to IP addresses, that's one major innovation that enabled the web. Then you look at what keyword navigation has done on top of DNS, what that did for the industry, and that basically birthed Google keywords basically ads. So that's trillions and trillions of dollars. Again, now shifting to you guys, is that how you see it? Obviously it's decentralized, so what's different? Okay, I get, so if you compare here Google was successful, keyword advertising industry for the last of 25 years or 20 years. >> What's different now is? >> yeah >> Yeah, what's different now is the technology inflection points. So Blockchains have evolved to a point where they enable high throughput high transaction volume and true decentralized ownership. The NFTs standard, which is only a couple years old, has taken off massively around trading of profile pictures like CryptoPunks and the Bored Apes Yacht Club where the use cases extend much more than just a cool JPEG that goes up in value two or three X year over year. There is a true use case here around ownership of identity ownership over data, a decentralized login authentication and permission data sharing. One of the sad things that happened on the internet the last decade really was, that the platforms built out have now allowed developers to build on top of them in a trustless comissionless way. Developers who built applications on top of them, the early monopolies in the last decade, got the rules changed on them. APIs cut off, new fees instituted. That's not going to happen in Web3 because all permission list. Once an NFT is minted, it's custody in a user's own wallet, we cannot take the way it will continue to exist in eternity, regardless of what happens to Unstoppable Domains, which gives developers a lot more confidence in building new products for the Web3 identity standard that we're building out. >> You know what's amazing is that's a whole another generational shift. I've always been a big fan of abstractions when innovation is needed when there are problems that need to be solved, messes to be cleaned up, a good abstraction layer on top of new architecture is really, really phenomenal. I guess the key question for I have for you is, theCUBE we have all this video where's our NFT how should we implement NFTs? >> There's a couple different ways you could think about it, you could do proof of attendance protocol NFTs, which are really interesting way for users to show that they were at particular event. So just in the same way that people collect T-shirts from conferences, people will be collecting NFTs to show they were attending in person cultural moments or that they were part of an event online or offline. You could do NFTs for our employees to show that they were at your company during certain periods of the company's growth. So think of replacing their resume with a cryptographically secure resume like this on the Blockchain and perpetuity. Now more than half of all resumes contain lies, which is a pretty gnarly problem as a hiring manager that we constantly have to sort through. There's where that this can impact that side of the market as well. >> That's awesome, and I think this is a use case for everything we appreciate that. And of course we can have the most favorite cube moments, it can be a cube host NFT at Board Apes out there. Why not have a board cube host going on and then.. >> We're an auction for charity and OpenSea. >> All right, great stuff, now let's get into some of the cool tech nerd stuff, which is really the login piece which I think is fascinating. The having NFTs be a login mechanism is another great innovation, okay. So this is cool, 'cause it's like think of it as one click NFTs, if you will. What's the response been on this login with Unstoppable for that product? What's some of the use cases, can you get some examples of the momentum intraction? >> Yeah, absolutely, so we launched a product less than 90 days ago and we already have 90 committed or integrated partners live today with a login product. And this replaces login with Google, login with Facebook with a way that it's user owned and user controlled. And over time people will be attaching additional information back to their NFT domain name, such as their reputation, their history, things they've done online and be able to permission to share that with applications that they interact with in order to gain rewards. Once you own all of your data, and you can choose who you shared with . Companies will incentivize you to share data. For example, imagine you just buy a new house and you have 3000 square feet to furnish. If you could tell that fact and prove it, to a company like Wayfair, would they be incentivized to give you discounts? We're spending 10, 20, $30,000 and you'll do all of your purchasing there rather than spread across other e-commerce retailers. For sure they would, but right now when you go to that website, you're just another random email address. They have no idea who you are, what you've done, what your credit score is, whether you're a new house buyer or not. But if you could permission to share that using a log and installable product, I mean the web would just be much much different. >> And I think one of the things too, as these, I call them analog old school companies, old guard companies as referred to in theCUBE talk here. But we always call that old guard as the people who aren't innovating. You could think about companies having more community too, because if you have more sharing and you have this marketplace concept and you have these new dynamics of how people are working together, sharing will provide more or transparency but yet security on identity. Therefore things are going to be happening organically. That's a community dynamic what's your view on that? And what's your reaction. >> Communities are such an important part of Web3 and the cryptos ecosystem in general. People are very tightly knit, they all support each other. There there's a huge amount of collaboration in this space because we're all trying to onboard the next billion users into the ecosystem. And we know we have some fundamental challenges and problems to solve, whether it's complex wallet addresses, whether it's the lack of portable data sharing, whether it's just simple education, right? I'm sure, tens of million of people have gone to crypto for the first time during this year's Super Bowl based on some of those awesome ads they ran. >> Yeah, love the QR code, that's a direct response. I remember when the QR codes been around for a long time. I remember in the late 90's, it was a device at red QR code that did navigation to a webpage. So I mean, QR codes are super cool, great way to get, and we all using it too with the pandemic to ordering food. So I think QR codes are here to stay, in fact, we should have a QR code on all of our images here on the screen too. So we'll work on that, but I got to ask you on the project side, now let's get into the devs and kind of the applications, the users that are adopting unstoppable and this new way of things. Why are they gravitating towards this login concept? Can you give some examples and give some color commentary to why are these D-application, distributed application, dApps guys and gals programming with you guys? >> Yeah, they all believe that the potential for what we're trying to create around user own controlled identity. Where the only company in the market right now with a product that's live and working today. There's been a lot of promises made, and we're the first ones to actually delivered. So companies like Cook Finance for example, are seeing the benefit of being able to have their users, go through a simple process to check in and authenticate into the application using your NFT domain name rather than having to create an email address and password combination as a login, which inevitably leads to problems such as lost passwords, password resets, all those fun things that we used to deal with on a daily basis. >> Okay, so now I got to ask you the kind of partnerships you guys are looking at doing. I can only imagine the old school days you had a registry and you had registrars, you had a sales mechanism. I noticed you guys are selling NFT kind of like domain names on your website. Is that a kind of a current situation, is that going to be ongoing? How do you envision your business model evolving and what kind of partnerships do you see coming along? >> Yeah, absolutely, so we're working with a lot of different companies from browsers to exchanges, to wallets, to individual NFT projects, to more recently even exploring partnership opportunities with fashion brands for example. Monetarily, market is moving so so fast. And what we're trying to essentially do here is create the standard naming system for Web3. So a big part of that for us will be working with partners like blockchain.com and with Circle, who's behind the USDC coin on creating registry such as .blockchain and .coin and making those available to tens of millions and ultimately hundreds of millions and billions of users worldwide. We want an Unstoppable domain name to be the first asset that every user in crypto gets even before they buy their Bitcoin, Ethereum or Dogecoin. >> It makes a lot of sense to abstract the way the long hexa desal stream we all know, that we all write down, put in a safe, hopefully we don't forget about it. I always say, make sure you tell someone where your address is. So in case something happens, you don't lose all that crypto. All good stuff. I got to ask this the question around the ecosystem. Okay, can you share your view and vision of either yourself or the company when you have this kind of new market, you have all kinds of, we meant the web was a good example, right? Web pages, you need to web develop and tools. You had HTML by hand, then you had all these tools. So you had tools and platforms and things kind of came well grew together. How is the Web3 stakeholder ecosystem space evolving? What are some of the white spaces? What are some of the clearly defined areas that are developing? >> Yeah, I mean, we've seen explosion in new smart contract blockchains in the past couple of years, actually going live, which is really interesting because they support a huge number of different use cases, different trade offs on each. We recently partnered and moved over a primary infrastructure to Polygon, which is a leading EVM compatible smart chain, which allows us to provide free gas fees to users for minting and managing their domain name. So we're trying to move all obstacles around user adoption. Here you'll need to have Ethereum in your wallet in order to be an Unstoppable Domains customer or user, you don't have to worry about paying transaction fees every time you want to update the wallet addresses associated with your domain name. We want to make this really big and accessible for everybody. And that means driving down costs as much as possible. >> Yeah, it's a whole nother wave. It's a wave that's built on the shoulders of others. It's a shift in infrastructure, new capabilities, new applications. I think it's a great thing you guys do in the naming system, makes a lot of sense. It abstraction layer creates that ease of use, it simplifies things, makes things easier. I mean was the promise of these abstraction layer. Final question, if I want to get involved, say we want to do a CUBE NFT with Unstoppable, how do we work with you? How do we engage? Can you give a quick plug on what companies can do to engage with you guys on a business level? >> Yeah, absolutely, so we're looking to partner with wallet exchanges, browsers and companies who are in the crypto space already and realize they have a huge problem around usability with crypto transfers and wallet addresses. Additionally, we're looking to partner with decentralized applications as well as Web2 companies who perhaps want to offer logging with Unstoppable domain functionality. In addition to, or in replacement of the login with Google and login with Facebook buttons that we all know and love. And we're looking to work with fashion brands and companies in the sports sector who perhaps want to claim their Unstoppable name, free of charge from us. I might add in order to use that on Twitter or in other marketing materials that they may have out there in the world to signal that they're not only forward looking, but that they're supportive of this huge waves that we're all riding at the moment. >> Matt, great insight, chief revenue officer, Unstoppable Domains. Thanks for coming on the showcase, theCUBE and Unstoppable Domains share in the insights. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Okay, this CUBE's coverage here with the Unstoppable Domain showcase. I'm John Furrier, your host, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome to theCUBE, "Unstoppable Domains Showcase." I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We got a great discussion here called the influencers around what's going on Web 3.0. And also this new sea change, cultural change around this next generation, internet, web, cloud, all happening, Jeremiah Owyang, Industry Analyst and Founding Part of Kaleido Insights. Jeremiah, great to see you thanks for coming on I appreciate it. Ren Besnard, Vice President of Marketing and Unstoppable Domains in the middle of all the action. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on on theCUBE for this showcase. >> Wow, my pleasure. >> Thanks for having us, John. >> Jeremiah, I want to start with you. You've seen many ways refer in all of your work for over a decade now. You've seen the Web 2.0 wave now the Web 3.0 is here. And it's not, I wouldn't say hyped up it's really just ramping up. And you're seeing real practical examples. You're in the middle of all the action. What is this Web 3.0, can you frame for us? I mean, you've seen many webs. What is Web 3.0 mean, what is it all about? >> Well John, you and I worked in the Web 2.0 space and essentially that enabled peer-to-peer media where people could upload their thoughts and ideas and videos without having to rely on centralized media. Unfortunately, that distributed and decentralized movement actually became centralized on the platform which are the big social networks and big tech companies. And this has caused an uproar because the people who are creating the content did not have control, could not control their identities, and could not really monetize or make decisions. So Web 3.0 which is a moniker of a lot of different trends, including crypto, blockchain and sometimes the metaverse. Is to undo the controlling that has become centralized. And the power is now shifting back into the hands of the participants again. And in this movement, they want to have more control over their identities, their governance, the content that they're creating, how they're actually building it, and then how they're monetizing it. So in many ways it's changing the power and it's a new economic model. So that's Web 3.0. Without really even mentioning the technologies. Is that helpful? >> Yeah, it's great. And Ren, we're talking about on theCUBE many times and one notable stat I don't think it's been reported, but it's been more kind of a rumor. I hear that 30% of the Berkeley computer science students are dropping out and going into to crypto or blockchain or decentralized startups. Which means that there's a big wave coming in of talent. You're seeing startups, you're seeing a lot more formation, you're seeing a lot more, I would say it's kind of ramping up of real people, not just people with dream is actual builders out here doing stuff. What's your take on the Web 3.0 movement with all this kind of change happening from people and also the new ideas being refactored? >> I think that the competition for talent is extremely real. And we start looking at the stats, we see that there is an enormous draft of people that are moving into this space. People that are fascinated by technology and are embracing the ethos of Web 3.0. And at this stage I think it's not only engineers and developers, but we have moved into a second phase where we see that a lot of supporting functions, you know, marketing being one of them, sales, business development are being built up quite rapidly. It's not without actually reminding me of the mid 2000s, you know. When I started working with Google, at that point in time the walled gardens rightly absorbing vast, vast cohorts of young graduates and more experienced professionals that were passionate and moving into the web environment. And I think we are seeing a movement right now, which is not entirely similar except faster. >> Yeah, Jeremiah, you've seen the conversations of the cloud, I call the cloud kind of revolution. You had mobile in 2007. But you got Amazon Web Services changed the application space on how people developed in the cloud. And again, that created a lot of value. Now you're seeing the role of data as a huge part of how people are scaling and the decentralized movements. So you've got cloud which is kind of classic today, state of the art enterprise and or app developers. And you've got now decentralized wave coming, okay. You're seeing apps being developed on that architecture. Data is central in all this, right. So how, how do you view this as someone who's watching the landscape, you know, these walled gardens are hoarding all the data I mean, LinkedIn, Facebook. They're not sharing that data with anyone they're using it for themselves. So as- >> That's right. >> They can control back comes to the forefront. How do you see this market with the applications and what comes out of that? >> So the thing that we seen out of the five things that I had mentioned that are decentralizing. (Jeremiah coughing) Are the ones that have been easier to move across. Have been the ability to monetize and to build. But the data aspect has actually stayed pretty much central, frankly. What has decentralized is that the contracts, the blockchain ledgers, those have decentralized. But the funny thing is often a big portion of these blockchain networks are on Amazon 63 to 70%, same thing with (indistinct). So they're still using the Web 2.0 architectures. However, we're also seeing other forms like IPFS where the data could be spread across a wider range of folks. But right now we're still dependent on what Web 2.0. So the vision and the promise Web 3.0 when it to full decentralization is not here by any means. I'd say we're at a Web 2.25. >> Pre-Web 3.0 no, but actions there. How do you guys see the dangers, 'cause there's a lot of negative press but also there's a lot of positive press. You're seeing a lot of fraud, we've seen a lot of the crypto fraud over the past years. You've seen a lot of now positive. It's almost a self-governance thing and environment, the way the culture is. But what are the dangers, how do you guys educate people, what should people pay attention to, what should people look for to understand, you know, where to position themselves? >> Yes, so we've learned a lot from Web 1.0, Web 2.0, the sharing economy. And we are walking into Web 3.0 with eyes wide open. So people have rightfully put forth a number of challenges, the sustainability issues with excess using of computing and mining the excessive amount of scams that are happening in part due to unknown identities. Also the architecture breaks DAOn in some periods and there's a lack of regulation. This is something different though. In the last periods that we've gone through, we didn't really know what was going to happen. And we walked and think this is going to be great. The sharing economy, the gig economy, the social media's going to change the world around. It's very different now. People are a little bit jaded. So I think that's a change. And so I think we're going to see that sorted out in suss out just like we've seen with other trends. It's still very much in the early years. >> Ren, I got to get your take on this whole should influencers and should people be anonymous or should they be docs out there? You saw the board, eight guys that did that were kind of docs a little bit there. And that went viral. This is an issue, right? Because we just had a problem of fake news, fake people, fake information. And now you have a much more secure environment imutability is a wonderful thing. It's a feature, not a bug, right? So how is this all coming down? And I know you guys are in the middle of it with NFTs as authentication. Take us, what's your take on this because this is a big issue. >> Look, I think first I am extremely optimistic about technology in general. So I'm super, super bullish about this. And yet, you know, I think that while crypto has so many upsides, it's important to be super conscious and aware of the downsides that come with it to, you know. If you think about every Fortune 500 company there is always training required by all employees on internet safety, reporting of potential attacks and so on. In Web 3.0, we don't have that kind of standard reporting mechanisms yet for bad actors in that space. And so when you think about influencers in particular, they do have a responsibility to educate people about the potential, but also the dangers of the technology of Web 3.0 of crypto basically. Whether you're talking about hacks or online safety, the need for hardware, wallet, impersonators on discord, you know, security storing your seed phrase. So every actor influencer or else has got a role to play. I think that in that context to your point, it's very hard to tell whether influencers should be anonymous, oxydemous or fully docked. The decentralized nature of Web 3.0 will probably lead us to see a combination of those anonymity levels so to speak. And the movements that we've seen around some influencers identities become public are particularly interesting. I think there's probably a convergence of Web 2.O and Web 3.0 at play here, you know. Maybe occurring on the notion of 2.5. But for now I think in Web 2.0, all business founders and employees are known and they held accountable for their public comments and their actions. If Web 3.0 enables us to be anonymous, if DAOs have voting control, you know. What happens if people make comments and there is no way to know who they are, basically. What if the DAO doesn't take appropriate action? I think eventually there will be an element of community self-regulation where influencers will be acting in the best interest of their reputation. And I believe that the communities will self-regulate themselves and will create natural boundaries around what can be said or not said. >> I think that's a really good point about influencers and reputation because. Jeremiah, does it matter that you're anonymous have an icon that could be a NFT or a picture. But if I have an ongoing reputation I have trust, to this trust there. It's not like just a bot that was created just to spam someone. You know I'm starting to getting into this new way. >> You're right, and that word you said trust, that's what really this is about. But we've seen that public docs, people with their full identities have made mistakes. They have pulled the hood over people's faces and really scammed them out of a lot of money. We've seen that in the, that doesn't change anything in human behavior. So I think over time that we will see a new form of a reputation system emerge even for pseudonym and perhaps for people that are just anonymous that only show their potential wallet, address a series of numbers and letters. That form might take a new form of a Web 3.0 FICO Score. And you could look at their behaviors. Did they transact, you know, how did they behave? Were they involved in projects that were not healthy? And because all of that information is public on the chain and you can go back in time and see that. We might see a new form of a scoring emerge, of course. Who controls that scoring? That's a whole nother topic gone on controling and trust. So right now, John we do see that there's a number of projects, new NFT projects, where the founders will claim and use this as a point of differentiation that they are fully docs. So you know who they are and in their names. Secondly, we're seeing a number of products or platforms that require KYC, you know, your customers. So that's self-identification often with a government ID or credit card in order to bridge out your coins and turn that into fiat. In some cases that's required in some of these marketplaces. So we're seeing a collision here between our full names and pseudonyms and being anonymous. >> That's awesome. And I think this is the new, again, a whole new form of governance. Ren, you mentioned some comments about DAO. I want to get your thoughts again. You know, Jeremiah we've become historians over the years. We're getting old I'm a little bit older than you. (Jeremiah laughs) But we've seen the- >> You're young men. You know, I remember breaking in the business when the computer standards bodies were built to be more organic and then they became much more of a, kind of an anti-innovation environment where people, the companies would get involved, the standards organization just to slow things DAO and mark things up a little bit. So, you know, you look at DAOs like, hmm, is DAO a good thing or a bad thing. The answer is from people I talk to is, it depends. So I'd love to get your thoughts on getting momentum and becoming defacto with value, a value proposition, vis-a-vis just a DAO for the sake of having a DAO. This has been a conversation that's been kind of in the inside the baseball here, inside the ropes of the industry, but there's trade offs. Can you guys share your thoughts on when to do a DAO and when not to do a DAO and the benefits and trade offs of that? >> Sure, maybe I'll start off with a definition and then we'll go to, Ren. So a DAO, a decentralized autonomous organization, the best way to think about this It's a digital cooperative. and we've heard of worker cooperatives before. The difference is that they're using blockchain technologies in order to do three things, identity, governance, and rewards and mechanisms. They're relying on Web 2.0 tools and technologies like discord and Telegram and social networks to communicate. And as a cooperative they're trying to come up with a common goal. Ren, what's your take, that's the setup. >> So, you know for me when I started my journey into crypto and Web 3.0, I had no idea about what DAO actually meant. And an easy way for me to think of it and to grasp the nature of it was about the comparison between a DAO and perhaps a more traditional company structure, you know. In the traditional company structure, you have (indistinct), the company's led by a CEO and other executives. The DAO is a flat structure, and it's very much led by a group of core contributors. So to Jeremiah's point, you know, you get that notion of a cooperative type of structure. The decision making is very different, you know. We're talking about a super high level of transparency proposals getting submitted and voting systems using (indistinct) as opposed to, you know, management, making decisions behind closed doors. I think that speaks to a totally new form of governance. And I think we have hardly, hardly scratched the surface. We have seen recently very interesting moments in Web 3.0 culture. And we have seen how DAO suddenly have to make certain decisions and come to moments of claiming responsibility in order to police behavior of some of the members. I think that's important. I think it's going to redefine how we're thinking about that particularly new governance models. And I think it's going to pave the way for a lot of super interesting structure in the near future. >> Yeah and that's a great point. >> Go ahead, Jeremiah. >> That's a great point, Ren. Around the transparency for governance. So, John you post the question, does this make things faster or slower? And right now in the most doubts are actually pretty slow because they're set up as a flat organization. So as a response to that they're actually shifting to become representative democracies. Does that sound familiar? Or you can appoint delegates and use tokens to vote for them and they have a decision power. Almost like a committee and they can function. And so we've seen actually there sometimes are hierarchy except the person at the top is voted by those that have the tokens. In some cases, the people at the top had the most tokens. But that's a whole nother topic. So we're seeing a wide variety of governance structures. >> You know, Ren I was talking with Matt G, the Founder of Unstoppable. And I was telling him about the Domain Name System. And one little trivia note that many people don't know about is that the US government 'cause the internet was started by the US. The Department of Commerce kept that on tight leash because the international telecommunications wanted to get their hands on it because of ccTLDs and other things. So at that time, 'cause the innovation yet was isn't yet baked out. It was organically growing the governance, the rules of the road, keeping it very stable versus melding with it. So there's certain technologies that require, Jeremiah that let's keep an eye on as a community let's not formalize anything. Like the government did with the Domain Name System. Let's keep it tight and then finally released it. I think multiple years after 2004, I think it went over to the ITU. But this is a big point. I mean, if you get too structured, organic innovation can't go. What's you guys reaction to that? >> So I think, you know to take the stab at it. We have as a business, you know, thinking of Unstoppable Domains, a strong incentive to innovate. And this is what is going to be determining long-term value growth for the organization, for partners, for users, for customers. So you know the degree of formalization actually gives us a sense of purpose and a sense of action. And if you compare that to DAO, for instance, you can see how some of the upsides and downsides can pan out either way. It's not to say that there is a perfect solution. I think one of the advantages of the DAO is that you can let more people contribute. You can probably remove buyers quite effectively and you can have a high level of participation and involvement in decisions and own the upside in many ways. You know as a company, it's a slightly different setup. We have the opportunity to coordinate a very diverse and part-time workforce in a very you a different way. And we do not have to deal with the inefficiencies that might be inherent to some form of extreme decentralization. So there is a balance from an organizational structure that comes either side. >> Awesome. Jeremiah, I want to get your thoughts on a trend that you've been involved in, we've both been involved in. And you're seeing it now with the kind of social media world, the world of the role of an influencer. It's kind of moved from what was open source and influencer was a connect to someone who shared, created content enabled things to much more of a vanity. You update the photo on Instagram and having a large audience. So is there a new influencer model with Web 3.0 or is it, I control the audience I'm making money that way. Is there a shift in the influencer role or ideas that you see that should be in place for what is the role of an influencer? 'Cause as Web 3.0 comes you're going to see that role become instrumental. We've seen it in open source projects. Influencers, you know, the people who write code or ship code. So what's your take on that? Because this has been a conversation. People have been having the word influencer and redefining and reframing it. >> Sure, the influence model really hasn't changed that much, but the way that they're behaving has when it comes to Web 3.0. In this market, I mean there's a couple of things. Some of the influencers are investors. And so when you see their name on a project or a new startup, that's an indicator there's a higher level of success. You might want to pay more attention to it or not. Secondly, influencers themselves are launching their own NFT projects. So, Gary Vaynerchuk, a number of celebrities, Paris Hilton is involved. They are also doing theirs as well. Steve Aok, famous DJ launched his as well. So they're going head first and participating in building in this model. And their communities are coming around them and they're building economy. Now the difference is it's not I speak as an influencer to the fans. The difference is that the fans are now part of the community and they literally hold and own some of the economic value, whether it's tokens or the NFTs. So it's a collaborative economy, if you will, where they're all benefiting together. And that's a big difference as well. >> Can you see- >> Lastly, there's one little tactic we're seeing where marketers are air dropping NFTs, branded NFTs influencers wallet. So you can see it in there. So there's new tactics that are forming as well. Back to you. >> That's super exciting. Ren, what's your reaction to that? Because he just hit on a whole new way of how engagement's happening, how people are closed looping their votes, their votes of confidence or votes with their wallet. And the brands which are artists now influencers. I mean, this is a whole game changing instrumentation level. >> I think that what we are seeing right now is super reinvigorating as a marketeer who's been around for a few years, basically. I think that the shift in the way brands are going to communicate and engage with their audiences is profound. It's probably as revolutionary and even more revolutionary than the movement for brands in getting into digital. And you have that sentiment of a gold rush right now with a lot of brands that are trying to understand NFTs and how to actually engage with those communities and those audiences. There are many levels in which brands and influencers are going to engage. There are many influencers that actually advance the message and the mission because the explosion of content on Web 3.0 has been crazy. Part of that is due to the network effect nature of crypto. Because as Jaremiah mentioned, people are incentivized to promote projects. Holders of an NFT are also incentivized to promote it. So you end up with a fly wheel which is pretty unique of people that are hyping their project and that are educating other people about it and commenting on the ecosystem with IP right being given to NFT holders. You're going to see people promote brands instead of the brands actually having to. And so the notion of brands are gaining and delivering elements of the value to their fans is something that's super attractive, extremely interesting. And I think again, we have hardly scratched the surface of all that is possible in that particular space. >> That's interesting. You guys are bringing some great insight here. Jeremiah, the old days the word authentic was a kind of a cliche and brands like tried to be authentic. And they didn't really know what to do they called it organic, right? And now you have the trust concept with authenticity and environment like Web 3.0 where you can actually measure it and monetize it and capture it if you're actually authentic and trustworthy. >> That's right, and be because it's on blockchain, you can see how somebody's behaved with their economic behavior in the past. Of course, big corporations aren't going to have that type of trail on blockchain just yet. But individuals and executives who participate in this market might be. And we'll also see new types of affinity. Do executives do they participate in these NFT communities, do they purchase them or numerous brands like Adidas to acquire, you know, different NFT projects to participate. And of course the big brands are grabbing their domains. Of course you could talk to, Ren about that because it's owning your own name is a part of this trust and being found. >> That's awesome. Great insight guys. Closing comments, takeaways for the audience here. Each of you take a minute to share your thoughts on what you think is happening now where it goes, all right, where's it going to go? Jeremiah, we'll start with you. >> Sure, I think the vision of Web 3.0 where full decentralization happens, where the power is completely shifted to the edges. I don't think it's going to happen. I think we will reach Web 2.5. And I've been through so many tech trends where we said that the power's going to shift completely to of the end, it just doesn't. In part there's two reasons. One is the venture capital are the ones who tend to own the programs in the first place. And secondly, the startups themselves end up becoming the one-percenter. We see Airbnb and Uber are one-percenter now. So that trend happens over and over and over. Now with that said, the world will be in a better place. We will have more transparency. We will see economic power shifted to the people, the participants. And so they will have more control over the internet that they are building. >> Awesome, Ren final comments. >> I'm fully aligned with Jeremiah on the notion of control being returned to users, the notion of ownership and the notion of redistribution of the economic value that is created across all the different chains that we are going to see and all those ecosystems. I believe that we are going to witness two parallel movements of expansion. One that is going to be very lateral. When you think of crypto and Web 3.0 essentially you think of a few 100 tribes. And I think that more projects are going to be a more coalitions of individuals and entities, and those are going to exist around those projects. So you're going to see, you know, an increase in the number of tribes that one might join. And I also think that we're going to progress rapidly from the low 100 millions of crypto and NFT holders into the big hands basically. And that's going to be extreme interesting. I think that the next waves of crypto users, NFT fans are going to look very different from the early adopters that we had witnessed in the very early days. So it's not going to be your traditional model of technology adoption curves. I think the demographics are going to shift and the motivations are going to be different as well, which is going to be a wonderful time to educate and engage with new community members. >> All right, Ren and Jeremiah, thank you both for that great insight great segment breaking down Web 3.0 or Web 2.5 as Jeremiah says but we're in a better place. This is a segment with the influencers. As part of theCUBE and the Unstoppable Domain Showcase. I'm John Furrie, your host. Thanks for watching. (bright upbeat music)