>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a Cube conversation. >> Hello and welcome to today's session of the AWS global public sector partner awards for the award for the most customer obsessed mission-based win in healthcare. I'm your host Natalie Erlich and I'm very pleased to introduce you to our guests Fabian Diaz Segovia the COO and CTO of Nubiral as well as Dr. Mauricio Ferez the CEO and co-founder of Entelai Welcome, gentlemen thank you for joining me. >> Mauricio: Thank you. >> Fabian: Thank you for the invitation. >> Fantastic. Well we'll highlight how AI is revolutionizing healthcare and helping to optimize actions as well as drive key efficiencies. And I want to ask you specifically now on COVID turning it to Mauricio. How is Entelai a support tool for the detection of COVID-19? >> Well, at the beginning of the pandemic we saw the need in Latin America because of the lack of tests and the overload of the health sector to help the frontline doctors using these algorithms working with for chest x-rays to detect those patients that had were suspicious of having COVID-19 and to prioritize them, especially in those contexts where we didn't have enough tests. So we did a very strong or multi centered approach in Latin America, showing that as in other areas the combination of doctors with these technologies provided the high benefit and then trade empowerment of the capacity to detect those patients that are suspicious of COVID-19. And at the beginning of the pandemic when we didn't have POS tests we help doctors to detect COVID-19 cases >> Terrific, and Fabian. And what challenges does the healthcare sector face now in increasing cost efficiency? >> Fabian: Thank you so much for your question. I believe that this last year we have seen a very rapid and energetic world we are living in, in the healthcare sector. We have seen, this suffering of the agility we need to have, in order to adjust to this new conditions. One of the strongest challenges was to respond would that trial systems that can respond to this change that we are seeing every day at Nubiral as a partner company of AWS trust in the technology of AWS to respond with their services and products in an effective and you know not try to worry to this sector that is so special today. >> Natalie: Perfect. Now Mauricio, how can AI speed up times as well as optimized actions? >> Mauricio: Well, in several ways in healthcare, one of the main challenges that we have that affects our region in Latin America but it's also a worldwide concern is the fact that we do not have enough doctors. We have more and more complex studies to carry out and this we know it's that time to return with the report to the patient, it takes too much time. So AI today can help us detect the most important cases, children, which need to be taken care of first. So as to short-term reporting times, especially in pathology like breast cancers or in pathology like dementia where these algorithms can help us measure the brain with that very highly precise way from the neurologist. >> Natalie: And now staying with you Mauricio, I'm really curious how was your software effective in medical image analysis? >> Mauricio: As in all technologies we have a learning curve. And it's interesting to see how as doctors we are usually very eager to acquire new knowledge and improve on our everyday practice because we are committed to that. And we have seen very good receptions of these kinds of technology. And the learning curve was really interesting on behalf of the doctors. Sometimes they were very reluctant, but in general they had a very good adoption of these kinds of technologies. And in this phenomenon we have seen doctors starting to use these tools and they have a great advantage over advanced doctors or centers. That not use the technology because we have more precise reports for the patients in a shorter time in the centers that use this kind of technology. >> Terrific. Now let's switch gears and talk about Nubiral. It provided the cloud infrastructure for a smart diagnostic solution on AWS. Can you give us some more insight on that Fabian? >> Fabian: Basically in our project it was essential to use cloud technology of AWS because of it's implementation of the services. You can very quickly provide services to new clinics new healthcare facilities in a matter of times or minutes from the point where we have the need and until the client has the software. It's very quick and it's easy to do and uh and the value there is the capacity for the clinic or the health care center to have more precise times with results and with AI in the results that delivers to the patient. >> Natalie: Terrific. Now let's talk about Entelai now. It decided to make its solidarity contribution to the COVID-19 pandemic, adapting its AI algorithms for chest radiography. Please give us some more insight on that project, Mauricio >> Mauricio: As we said at the beginning chest x-rays is one of the mostly used uh since studies that we people usually do when it's something that we've been doing for a while. So in the context of the pandemic we decided to retrain by the algorithm taking advantage of that knowledge, it was adjusted to detect COVID-19. This pathology produces damage on the lungs and on the body and that way with DevOps and CT scans we can detect and it's cheap and available in our region. So we believe this could be a could provide a significant uh approach especially in areas, where we didn't have specialists. So we saw that making it available on the, on the web, on the cloud everybody could upload an image and have a recommendation with a trained system, with the equivalent of what would be a specialist. So we believe it was an interesting contribution, especially at the beginning of the pandemic, but we expect to have help patients to receive hourly attention, hourly care >> And shifting gears. Now, a bit I'd like to switch over to Fabian. Could you give us some insight on your business model? >> Yes, Nubiral is the company working hand in hand with AWS We provide professional services to all the companies and clients willing to transform to go for a digital transformation. We accompanied them in this transformation with concrete tools thanks to the solutions and tools that AWS provides. So we can model any case that we use and we can convert it to a digital case and escalate it in a matter of weeks or days this is the power of any business, the agility and quickness with which we can implement a solution. >> Natalie: And I'd like to switch it over now to our other guests. Would you kindly give us some insight now Mauricio on your business model? >> Yeah. We also work in partnership with Nubiral and AWS to generate a model that is cost effective and that is scalable for healthcare facilities. And we usually were the study bubbles we aim at centers that as they need these studies, they can have them available and they can conceive them Just as if it were a micro service of AWS And in this way, we can use the cloud with sources in a very smart way, with very good results for the patient. >> Natalie: And staying with you. Mauricio, just in a few words, give us some understanding of the kind of customer impact that you're seeing. >> Yeah, well, the Entelai focus that we are working on, on the cloud is to change the life of the patients as a company funded by doctors, specialists and computing, our focus are the patient and we change patient lives for the impact that we have in medical practice and the imaging specialists and imaging centers. So we have different new cases of how this technology is changing the lives of the patients. Either for early detection of important diseases like breast cancer or neurodegenerative diseases in the brain, which are sort of are main algorithms we are working with or where they are here in emergencies with chest x-rays the centers that use these algorithms can optimize what patients need to wait in the ER or if they can go home. And it's our traditional cases that where Entelai with AI is helping patients. >> Natalie: And now Fabian, I'd love it for you to weigh in as well. Talk about the impact that you're seeing >> Today. Clients choose those because of the customization that the solution that we've developed, one of the most valuable things of the world we live in is to adjust the client needs because every business is different where is not only one size fits all. With the tools, the a partner like AWS we can send the right solutions that are customized with a big impact and with added value to the client. >> Well, gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me and offering these incredible insights and the impact that your companies are making for people all around the world. That's it for this segment of the AWS global public sector partner awards I'm your host Natalie Erlich. Thanks very much for watching. (bright music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a Cube conversation. >> Hello and welcome to today's session of the AWS global public sector partner awards for the award for the most customer obsessed mission-based win in healthcare. I'm your host Natalie Erlich and I'm very pleased to introduce you to our guests Fabian Diaz Segovia the COO and CTO of Nubiral as well as Dr. Mauricio Ferez the CEO and co-founder of Entelai Welcome, gentlemen thank you for joining me. >> Mauricio: Thank you. >> Fabian: Thank you for the invitation. >> Fantastic. Well we'll highlight how AI is revolutionizing healthcare and helping to optimize actions as well as drive key efficiencies. And I want to ask you specifically now on COVID turning it to Mauricio. How is Entelai a support tool for the detection of COVID-19? >> Well, at the beginning of the pandemic we saw the need in Latin America because of the lack of tests and the overload of the health sector to help the frontline doctors using these algorithms working with for chest x-rays to detect those patients that had were suspicious of having COVID-19 and to prioritize them, especially in those contexts where we didn't have enough tests. So we did a very strong or multi centered approach in Latin America, showing that as in other areas the combination of doctors with these technologies provided the high benefit and then trade empowerment of the capacity to detect those patients that are suspicious of COVID-19. And at the beginning of the pandemic when we didn't have POS tests we help doctors to detect COVID-19 cases >> Terrific, and Fabian. And what challenges does the healthcare sector face now in increasing cost efficiency? >> Fabian: Thank you so much for your question. I believe that this last year we have seen a very rapid and energetic world we are living in, in the healthcare sector. We have seen, this suffering of the agility we need to have, in order to adjust to this new conditions. One of the strongest challenges was to respond would that trial systems that can respond to this change that we are seeing every day at Nubiral as a partner company of AWS trust in the technology of AWS to respond with their services and products in an effective and you know not try to worry to this sector that is so special today. >> Natalie: Perfect. Now Mauricio, how can AI speed up times as well as optimized actions? >> Mauricio: Well, in several ways in healthcare, one of the main challenges that we have that affects our region in Latin America but it's also a worldwide concern is the fact that we do not have enough doctors. We have more and more complex studies to carry out and this we know it's that time to return with the report to the patient, it takes too much time. So AI today can help us detect the most important cases, children, which need to be taken care of first. So as to short-term reporting times, especially in pathology like breast cancers or in pathology like dementia where these algorithms can help us measure the brain with that very highly precise way from the neurologist. >> Natalie: And now staying with you Mauricio, I'm really curious how was your software effective in medical image analysis? >> Mauricio: As in all technologies we have a learning curve. And it's interesting to see how as doctors we are usually very eager to acquire new knowledge and improve on our everyday practice because we are committed to that. And we have seen very good receptions of these kinds of technology. And the learning curve was really interesting on behalf of the doctors. Sometimes they were very reluctant, but in general they had a very good adoption of these kinds of technologies. And in this phenomenon we have seen doctors starting to use these tools and they have a great advantage over advanced doctors or centers. That not use the technology because we have more precise reports for the patients in a shorter time in the centers that use this kind of technology. >> Terrific. Now let's switch gears and talk about Nubiral. It provided the cloud infrastructure for a smart diagnostic solution on AWS. Can you give us some more insight on that Fabian? >> Fabian: Basically in our project it was essential to use cloud technology of AWS because of it's implementation of the services. You can very quickly provide services to new clinics new healthcare facilities in a matter of times or minutes from the point where we have the need and until the client has the software. It's very quick and it's easy to do and uh and the value there is the capacity for the clinic or the health care center to have more precise times with results and with AI in the results that delivers to the patient. >> Natalie: Terrific. Now let's talk about Entelai now. It decided to make its solidarity contribution to the COVID-19 pandemic, adapting its AI algorithms for chest radiography. Please give us some more insight on that project, Mauricio >> Mauricio: As we said at the beginning chest x-rays is one of the mostly used uh since studies that we people usually do when it's something that we've been doing for a while. So in the context of the pandemic we decided to retrain by the algorithm taking advantage of that knowledge, it was adjusted to detect COVID-19. This pathology produces damage on the lungs and on the body and that way with DevOps and CT scans we can detect and it's cheap and available in our region. So we believe this could be a could provide a significant uh approach especially in areas, where we didn't have specialists. So we saw that making it available on the, on the web, on the cloud everybody could upload an image and have a recommendation with a trained system, with the equivalent of what would be a specialist. So we believe it was an interesting contribution, especially at the beginning of the pandemic, but we expect to have help patients to receive hourly attention, hourly care >> And shifting gears. Now, a bit I'd like to switch over to Fabian. Could you give us some insight on your business model? >> Yes, Nubiral is the company working hand in hand with AWS We provide professional services to all the companies and clients willing to transform to go for a digital transformation. We accompanied them in this transformation with concrete tools thanks to the solutions and tools that AWS provides. So we can model any case that we use and we can convert it to a digital case and escalate it in a matter of weeks or days this is the power of any business, the agility and quickness with which we can implement a solution. >> Natalie: And I'd like to switch it over now to our other guests. Would you kindly give us some insight now Mauricio on your business model? >> Yeah. We also work in partnership with Nubiral and AWS to generate a model that is cost effective and that is scalable for healthcare facilities. And we usually were the study bubbles we aim at centers that as they need these studies, they can have them available and they can conceive them Just as if it were a micro service of AWS And in this way, we can use the cloud with sources in a very smart way, with very good results for the patient. >> Natalie: And staying with you. Mauricio, just in a few words, give us some understanding of the kind of customer impact that you're seeing. >> Yeah, well, the Entelai focus that we are working on, on the cloud is to change the life of the patients as a company funded by doctors, specialists and computing, our focus are the patient and we change patient lives for the impact that we have in medical practice and the imaging specialists and imaging centers. So we have different new cases of how this technology is changing the lives of the patients. Either for early detection of important diseases like breast cancer or neurodegenerative diseases in the brain, which are sort of are main algorithms we are working with or where they are here in emergencies with chest x-rays the centers that use these algorithms can optimize what patients need to wait in the ER or if they can go home. And it's our traditional cases that where Entelai with AI is helping patients. >> Natalie: And now Fabian, I'd love it for you to weigh in as well. Talk about the impact that you're seeing >> Today. Clients choose those because of the customization that the solution that we've developed, one of the most valuable things of the world we live in is to adjust the client needs because every business is different where is not only one size fits all. With the tools, the a partner like AWS we can send the right solutions that are customized with a big impact and with added value to the client. >> Well, gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me and offering these incredible insights and the impact that your companies are making for people all around the world. That's it for this segment of the AWS global public sector partner awards I'm your host Natalie Erlich. Thanks very much for watching. (bright music)

>>Welcome welcome back to the cubes coverage of dr khan 2021. I'm john for a host of the cube. We're here to talk about observe ability in the enterprise, enabling developers. Fabian lang VP of engineering and co founder of Istana, now part of IBM. Fabian, Congratulations on everything and great to have you on the cube here for dr gone. >>Thank you. Thanks for having me. >>So I'm in Palo Alto, you're in Germany were doing the remote thing obviously virtual second year in a row for dr khan. Soon real life is coming back. Uh no real impact of developers as they continue to be more productive than ever. The hottest conversation topic being discussed, being funded by venture capitalists and private equity is observe ability. This is an area you guys are playing in aggressively and you got some product observe ability. What's the big deal about Docker con Docker containers observe ability kubernetes, Why is observe ability at the center of all these conversations and the center of the value. >>So observe ability basically means you understand what's going on and today it's more important than ever to understand what's going on because there is so much more going on. If you think back five years maybe before Dr even was featured prominently, you had very little things that you needed to control that you need to understand and then micro service and coordinative became more popular and became really more important to understand what all those moving parts are doing. And that's where observe ability was born out of what we have been doing before at that time it was called application performance monitoring A PM. It's now called observe ability. It's really understanding all those parts of your architecture, of your stack of the application and in the end of the end user experience, you want to know if a user is experiencing a slow service and what's the reason for that? Because today, so many things are moving so many things that maybe even outsourced into cloud providers, it's more important than ever to know what's going on. >>Well we're here at Dunkirk on 2021 virtual. I want to get you to take a minute if you don't mind explaining to the folks why Dr and Dr Khan is important to Astana. >>So I, I said we were founded like six years ago and at that time Doctor was the rising star. It was promoting a lot of new technology. It was giving developers new abilities to develop applications in a very agile away. Microservices were enabled by Doctor before you had to deploy those things somehow it was a city Rome and then you needed to install >>debian >>package but with microservices you have so many more things to install. So it was really, I would say instrumental to the success of microservices to have a platform like docker that was really the next gen of technology that helped to enable those applications. And for us it was really an important driver to understand the whole stack, the traditional tools where eyes are oriented to infrastructure monitoring. So you understand the quality of your host if it's running slow or to look into application of an application was throwing errors but everything was disconnected and unique functionality of Astana is to connect all those bits and pieces of the application together and for that containers. And now kubernetes is a really important part to understand because it is part of this whole picture. >>Did you talk about the problem that you guys solve? Um obviously with those availability, I mean the general concept, we kind of get that great, great overview on your part, but when you start to get into devoPS teams, you start looking at def sec off, start looking at cloud native applications. I see Docker containers provides all that goodness and kubernetes, orchestration, etcetera. What problem do you guys solve? And um what's the benefit? >>The main problem that in stana solves is getting all this understanding that I said is required to provide a good experience of to your users, to your end customers uh without requiring you to do all the instrumentation work or the capture and configuration work because in stana is very automatic, it automatically sees all the works lords that are running in your communities, for example, that are running in Dr containers, but it also connects to legacy databases, fully automatic. So no configuration required also means that with a high rate of change that some of those applications hard have is that we will see all those change happening in real time. And you can't forget to make a configuration to enable your observe ability. So it's really return of investment on the viability solution that we provide and we provide a lot of this insight uh that you can get and that enables you to provide better service for your users. >>So you guys aren't just a doctor monitoring service and company, you guys actually run on Docker. Right, is that true? >>That's correct. So we are not only monitoring doctor and all these things connected to applications, but we are running on a doctor or platform as a service. SaAS software as a service. We run for you so you don't need to operate and stana, we are running it on managed kubernetes clusters and uh, IBM cloud and amazon cloud in google cloud. We have all that and it's it's all running on docker containers and that gives us so many features that are really great with DACA. So all the configuration that specific to microservices are being baked into the images and you can just roll it out, especially for monitoring products that is dependent on the data, that the performance depends on the data our customers send. Um, these ease of scalability with doctor is just so much bigger than it would be with a traditional deployment type. We can just add worker notes to our cluster and have ports auto scale to new notes and this is functionality that wasn't there before and that's great and that's important, essential for our business. >>You know, one of the conversations that's being talked about here at dr khan and in the industry at large is this idea of happy developers and everyone wants to keep developers happy. I've been hearing that conversation, have many chats with folks, you know, productivity and innovation, um but productivity and happy developers of the concept, but also, you know, on the, on the business side or on the developer side, it's more accelerated pipeline. Right? So, so how do you manage to flow, keep that productivity going, But also enabling happy developers, what do you guys do to help there? I mean what if someone asks you, hey, how do you make my developers happier and accelerate my pipeline? >>Well, that's really dependent on what makes the developers happy. I think most developers really want to get their functionality. They are working on their passionate about into production into the hands of end users. So um, skipping out a lot of the manual configuration work that's boring and not really appealing to develop us, helps everything is pre packaged and configured automatically. So that's a big, big plus. And the standard monitoring as I said, uh, is also automatic. So you don't need to configure it, your, your application on how to monitor it. So developers can just focus on delivering features and whenever there is something we will tell them, I think they enjoy that >>innovations creates great, that's a benefit. Can you talk about the on prem version of installing a, that's something that you guys are talking about and featuring um what is that about? Can you take a minute to explain beyond prem version of in Astana for dr containers? >>Yeah, it's a, it's an interesting topic, especially at the conference like dr khan, where it's all about virtualization, container realization and going into the cloud, that there are still companies, enterprises government mental entity that are very heavily invested on an on premise solution. They want to have control or are legally required to have control over what they have been deployed. So we knew when we founded in Astana that our solution, unlike our competitors, can't be only software as a service. We want to have a fantastic software as a service product and experience, but it should be equally good on premises as well. And when we were looking at ways how to actually do it, how to deliver an architecture that a little bit complicated to on premises customers to have themselves as the solution. We saw that doctor solves a lot of problems for us. We don't need to manually petra around operating system that customers, we don't have different versions of packages installed. It's all the same and actually it's not only all the same for all the deployment of all our customers, but it's also the same technology that we run as a software. As a service customers can run it now on their own. So we have feature parity, it's not lagging behind and this is also ease of support for us. >>So why was it, what was the motivation behind that was just customer demand? Um, more efficiency? What was the motivation behind moving on, supporting the on prem version? >>Uh, so for a start up, it's all about addressing the market share. Right? So you wanna have everything you can get, you don't want to spend any extra money on it. And as I said, the enterprise market is big. There are still many players that want to have the data in house. This is potentially sensitive data that's being tracked. So an on premise solution having, it was really instrumental to the success of in Stana because we were able to target and help those customers even in a fully adapt scenario, for example where they don't even have internet access. >>Take me through the process of DACA rising the product sitting on prime product that you get the thing going on there, like okay, let's do this. What does that look like? How did that work out? >>So as I said, we looked at this from the beginning and we picked DACA as a technology from the beginning, so there wasn't really like a shift and left type of scenario that other customers might be having. We were doing it from the beginning and we were aligning our architecture so that there are no fundamental differences between an on premise solution and anti size solution. That's of course configuration, that's different. But that configuration we just put into a single configuration file and that turned out to be a great idea because this is how you nowadays configure your application kubernetes, you'll make a customer resource for example, and then have an operator run the product, any kind of product, but also in stana, you run on premises with an operator that just works on the single configuration that you give it. And this is actually great because our customers are used to operating products like that, their own software, everything customers are running in dhaka in kubernetes, they are used to operating it that way. And that helped us because our customers now get the same functionality that we offer as a, as a service on premises very easily very quickly. And that make them happier. We talked about developer happiness that makes them happy because now they are not lagging behind but it also enables us to give better quality support, lot fixes faster and helps us to no longer support very old presence because they don't exist. They are frequently updated. I think this is really a benefit of container realization is also how easy it is to upgrade because you just stop apart and start a part in the new version and then you have a new verse. >>That's also great insights may be great to chat with you on that. I got to ask you on a personal note, you've been in the industry for a while and your leader, um you know, that's a performance geek, you'll have to build fast code. I was been chatting with other VPs of engineering and we were talking about the shift in engineering and with devops you've got kind of s our reaction, you have some just straight up application coding, just modernize that cloud native applications and you've got a kind of under the devoPS as the world's shifts. It seems like there's more of an architectural systems engineering approach or a systems mindset and that seems to be changing the mindset of a developer from Iterate fast. And then the line I heard was you can iterate and pump out code fast, but it might not be good, might be crap. So, so this notion of iterating code and crafting good product because with now this module Ization with containers, you're doing a lot more design work. So craft seems to be coming back to coding. Uh, I don't think it's coming back, it's been there, but it just seems more of like, hey, let's do this, right? And it's not just ship code. What's your take on that? >>So I think this always was there. It's just that traditionally companies approached software engineering similar to how companies approach manufacturing. So somebody writing a designs back and somebody verifying it and then it's going onto the line to mass production. But software doesn't work that way. We make way more changes, it's way harder to understand it up front. So the developed the iterative and exile development that has been ongoing is really, is really what people want and develops well. There is this notion of being a being waking up in the middle of the night and that's what developers don't want. So you need to prepare your application, you need to make it resilient against that. And developers are very eager to build in functionality that helps them to troubleshoot to make their application available. With a high rate of change. There is a high rate of risk as you said and I think the ability to deploy 1000 times per day is great but you don't necessarily need to do that. I think it's also important for your users that you find the right pace of when you deliver functionality and when you deliver fixes. >>I was just talking to a friend the other day and we were just talking about organizations and teams and yeah, we always riff on the the two pizza team or having more agility and you have this democratization because of the agility is also a benefit for any developer to add value if they have the right perspective or creativity. But it kind of disrupts the kind of the old way of thinking. I'm the principal engineer is my job. No, I'm the chief architect. So you have these titles and you have roles, the roles are changing and sometimes just the arguments. Oh wait, that's my job is that I'm this kind of changes. What's your thoughts on, how do you manage that dynamic? Because as you have more, uh, I won't say surface here more democratized engineering with virtual teams and whatnot You have compose ability with, with with code. You have more of a systems are a lot more going on. It's not your standard engineering mindset. What's your thinking on this as a leader in engineering and visionary? >>Well as we know the architecture of a software full of the organization that the company has. That creates. All right. So I think what you want when you want to have a micro service architecture, you want to have a micro service teams. You want to have teams, we call him at and standard delivery teams that work more or less independently on a certain set of features and are responsible for them and to end. So my engineers, they are talking to our customers figuring out how to make a feature better. They are then designing this with our user designers and then they are developing and deploying it and this really entry and responsibility. And we don't really have those titles like architect anymore. I think those roles are still there but it's more like a shared responsibility. So you of course want an architecture, you want to have your components talk to each other in an efficient way and it's more really communities of practice that are establishing. So you will find out that you have people and your teams who have specific skills who like to work on architecture. Some of them like to work on continuous delivery systems And then you you form those cross functional teams dynamically and when it's no longer hit this bands. And I think that's a major difference to assigning a person to a road. >>Yeah and and also that with you have new trends like observe ability, enterprise observe ability you know new things are happening um And new net new things like new architecture and also new roles and responsibilities. I'll see new patterns to with the data you have services being stood up and turned down all the time. You have a lot of dynamic environment. So you know having a happy developers one eliminate the manual work what you do but also giving them good work assignments to work on some good hard problems. So what is what are those hard problems that engineers like to work on these days? Is it like design? Is it coding? I mean I know it depends as you mentioned on the personalities but generally speaking as dev ops def sec Ops becomes much more of an agile edge hybrid play. What's the hard problem? >>I think big data is not really a new term but I think this is still a very interesting territory because you can apply various aspects to it. You have this data science aspect to it to understand how to detect pattern in it. And then automation is actually artificial intelligence. Right? So you automate data science and that's very interesting because those are large scale problems and new problems and new solutions. So yes there are existing frameworks but there's so much innovation to be found and making this work efficiently is another dimension of the same problem. That's also not easy and challenging problems. Make developers happy and then you can even have people think about the financial aspects. So it should also be cheap Big data and AI is usually very expensive because it requires so much hardware. So not only tried to make it fast but maybe even make it efficient. So this whole domain is very appealing. There is new technology to be invented, tough problems and I think that's really exciting to developed. >>Fabian Lang, vice president of engineering co founder and stand a great to have you on the q Great insight. Thank you for sharing that knowledge there. And the overview of installing here at dr khan observe ability very relevant for next gen next level solutions. Thanks for coming on the cube. Right, okay. I'm john Fury with the queue here. Dr khan 2021 coverage. Thanks for watching. Mm.

[Music] okay welcome back everyone it's thecube's coverage here in monaco i'm john furrier host of thecube monaco crypto summit presented by digital bits uh media partners coin telegraph in the cube a lot of great stuff going on here digital bits and the ecosystem around the world come together to talk about the next generation uh nft environments metaverse uh blockchain all the innovations going up and down the stack of the decentralized world that will be soon a reality for everybody we have a great guest david lutzkach here who's the co-founder of aftermath islands metaverse which i got a little sneak preview of but david thanks for joining me thanks john great to be here uh we had dinner the other night at nobu it's great to know you get to know your background you've got a stellar uh pedigree um you've run public companies you've been involved in tech media across the board again this is a ship we're seeing like we've never before perfect storm technology change cultural change business model transformation all around deep decentralization crypto token economics decentralized applications metaverse i mean come on we haven't digital identity there was identity which you're involved in take us through what are you working on take a minute to explain what you're working on and then we'll get into it so aftermath islands is is really a culmination of three things uh digital identity the ability to prove who you are because we think the internet and i think everyone would agree the internet's broken you know um nefarious actors bad actors can be anywhere um hacks fake spots so by being able to prove that you're a real person not necessarily verifying your identity but prove that you're a real person um can add a lot of benefits to everyone in the ecosync system second thing is we combine that with avatars nfts and credentials because i'd like to represent myself as a little more buff than i am and maybe a little taller and then the third thing is we put it in a unreal engine so real realistic photo realistic game engine metaverse that requires no downloading it's all pixel streaming just like you'd stream netflix you can stream the game i want to ask because this is i know it's a hard problem because i've asked a lot of people the same question the unreal engine is really powerful and the imagery is amazing like gaming we all know what it looks like it's hard it's not everyone's getting it right what makes it so special how are you guys cracking the code well i think it's our experience i mean we've worked for major entertainment companies major technology companies major sports companies so um as i just use your word because it being i want to be humbled by this but we do have a great pedigree we've also brought great people to the table so having a platform isn't enough we've got great creators and uh we've got great storytellers so we've got the anisiasa brothers one mariano is is a illustrator and former special editor uh project center at marvel and his brother fabian is our storyteller who's the co-creator of deadpool so we've got great people and with unreal engine 5 we've really taken it from the ground up we've looked at it and and we've really combined it with new gpu cloud serving and pixel streaming so that you're so the individual that's that's involved engaged immersed is now really playing it without having to download a graphics package yeah and also you drop some names there and some and some brands i know there's a lot more at dinner we've talked a lot about them you you know all the top creators and again i love the creator culture i mean that's the new buzzwords around but ultimately it's artists people building stuff application developers in the software world movies and film art art and code is kind of coming together it's the same kind of thing media and coding it's like the same mindset you know creative exactly crazy good smart in a good way in the blockchain it's harder because you've got all this underlying infrastructure and stuff to provision and build often created say oh man it's like doing chores it's like i just want to build cool stuff i don't want to get in the weeds of all the tech right this is like whoever cracks the code can unleash that heavy lifting so the artist can like feel good about kicking ass well i'm i'm being a slot a little sly here because we've sort of broken it into three areas and we've used blockchain to book and the platform so we still think that that gaming in the interactive platform has to have centralization it has to have decision making we have a great community um between twitter and discord we have over 30 000 people and we have organizations that have already um spawned um themselves up or spun up to manage our landowner ownership and some of our guilds for some of our professions but at the same time they're allowing us to make decisions based on what the community wants i mean i've heard recently um i don't want to say it's a horror story but it's been difficult that consensus-based models for development have to get consensus and not everybody agrees you still need the leadership i mean you still need sort of a captain on a ship to make sure that the dictatorships are work and well and linux um tried that and they've worked for a while but when they moved over to we're going to make some decisions have an opinion right whether it's centralization it's faster yeah consensus systems can be diverse and time-consuming well they can be political as well i mean you can you can it can become problems so at the front end we've got digital identity and that's all blockchain based and at the back end we have over 20 services including dids and did com which is decentralized identifier communication and all our services are blockchain based but in the middle um connected to nft's blockchain and everything else and to our teacher identity we have a game or a game platform or a open world platform that is centralized built in unreal engine so that we can make those decisions that spur on individual development it's an architecture it is i mean this is essentially an operating environment exactly you can have the benefits of the decentralized all your data on your identity okay and then have the middle be the playground and built right now that has to get done faster and you're constantly iterating exactly so you need to have that exactly so what are people saying about this to me i think that makes a lot of sense people are very intrigued um we're getting a lot of traction first of all unreal engine in the middle um brands love it because it provides a realistic view of a brand brands have spent you know hundreds of millions of dollars building brand equity and they don't necessarily want a cartoon representation of their brand so brands love it um uh we showed a video here at the monaco crypto summit of some and our videos available online on youtube but we're showing realistic we can create realistic avatars so people are really excited about what we're doing you know david i think one of the things i've had controversy statements in the past that got all the purists going back to 2018 you know throwing tomatoes at me but other halfs like loving it because at that time there was dogma around block change got to be done you know it was slow and gas so why i can use a database now we use the blockchain for smart contracts right which you that's what you want to do you want to have that locked in you want immutability so again this opportunity is to advance faster and not have to get stuck in the dogma but maybe get it back to it later database is a great example i agreed i think i think over time the community will take over the entire platform but i think at the beginning you have to have again you have to have a rudder on a ship to make it go somewhere it's called product market fit exactly you got to get to the market exactly with a product you've got that i want that exactly i mean unreal engine is hard i know what are some of the people you worked with because i think i think what i like about what you're working on is that you are and i think a great poster child of in terms of the organization of a group of people that are pros that want to do great work in a new world with the kind of experience and tools that they had in their old world right faster cheaper better more control when we were there at web one we're there at web two and now with web three we have the ability to fix some of the things that we thought were wrong with web one and two so and move into the ownership economy and and really um for us we've got a great team of people you know around the world that we work with and we're starting to bring in larger organizations to support us i mean our digital identity we're really working with the backbone at ibm and digital identity is very different in blockchain than is crypto and we're working with great people in crypto now we announced today that we're minting our native token dubs with digital bits so we're really excited about that yeah yeah let me ask you a question because i love the fact that you brought multiple ways of innovation again i've mentioned on that with shared experience there different different ride for different waves what have you learned and shared to folks who are going to dip their toe and get on their surfboard so to speak use the california metaphor for both californians what is web3 wave like how's it different from two what's the learnings can you share scar tissue experience observation anything around what you're doing now so they can get insight into this wave well you know web 1 and web 2 were broken i mean you could never go in i think we had this discussion you could never go into an electronic store in the real world write your information down on a piece of paper and expect that you'd walk out of the store with the purchase but we can type in information that is non-verified until i could take my friend's credit card know where they live and use it by using digital identity at a front end we create one user one account that user can have thousands of verifiable credentials around them and hundreds of avatars so i think what we've really learned is the ability to progress in a way that that really puts data back in the hands of consumers and makes them the owner of their identity by starting there we have a world in front of us that is valuable to marketers valuable to brands and valuables to individuals and whether it's education whether it's government services whether it's retail everything can be built on that simple premise that i am myself it's interesting there's a constant technology we're called presence you know you're present at an event you're present at a store you're present and some reality physically and you have credentials around that presence contextually exactly you're saying you can have one nft one digital identity or identity and have multiple identities that have contacts all stored i'll store it in an avatar it's like changing your suit hey i'm going into the apple store i'm now my apple john and and think of it this way um brands can now connect with you and give you promos give you product based on the information that you're willing to share with them about your real person and your avatar becomes your intermediary so your payment information stored within your digital identity and your avatar not at the retail level so this is a concept we've been working on for a long time i think we're talking about dinner but i want to bring this up for you for you to come and get a reaction to is that if what you just said is true that means if i'm the user and i have power to control my data the script flips now i'm brokering my data to the brand exactly not the other way around exactly or some intermediary i'm in control exactly and i could demand based on what my contextual relevance is to the brand and the brand is willing to pay for that because if you think about it today um social media unfortunately is plagued by fake accounts you know and issues and and so brands are spending all this money and they're getting slippage and breakage and that's spent if they know your real person they're more likely to want to give you an incentive to engage with them because it's a one-to-one transaction that creates value that's a great point you mentioned twitter earlier look at elon musk uncovered all the bots on twitter um and if they ever did the facebook i'm sure there's a ton of different accounts on facebook but you know it's out there these walled gardens have nefarious bad actors man it's not truth isn't what's the truth i mean gaming has this right now it's like you're anonymous you can go down or you got to go real name so we've got a hybrid you can do anonymously verified so because we use biometrics to verify that you're a real person so you can stay anonymous but we know you're a real person because your biometrics belong to you well david great to have you on thecube you got a great insight and experience thanks for sharing thank you john uh what's next for you guys you want to put a plug in for what you're working on you're looking for people funding more action what are you guys doing right well we've we've self-funded to date and we're we're finally going to be releasing um opportunities for people to engage with us in tokenomics and that's why we've we're working with digital bits but we're also looking for great people and great partners we're creating an interoperable open um uh world where we want to bring partners to the table so anyone who's interested reach out to us all right david guys thanks for going on thecube all right more coverage here on thecube we're all over this area going back to 2018 we brought thecube to all the events been covered on siliconangle.com since 2010 and watching this wave just get better the reality is here it's a metaverse world it is a decentralized world happening to everyone monaco crypto summit here in monaco thanks for watching we'll be right back with more after this short break you

>> Live from San Diego, California It's the queue covering Sisqo Live US 2019 Tio by Cisco and its ecosystem. Barker's >> Welcome Back to San Diego. Everybody watching the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. This day. One of our coverage of Sisqo Live 2019 from San Diego. I'm Dave a lot with my co host to minimum. Lisa Martin is also here. Kip Compton is the senior vice president of Cisco's Cloud Platform and Solutions, and he's joined by Fabio Gori was the senior director of Cloud Solutions Marketing. Gentlemen, thanks so much for coming on the Cube. >> Thanks. Great to be here having us. >> You're very welcome, Fabio. So, Kip, Let's start with you. I want to start with a customer perspective. People are transforming. Cloud is part of that innovation cocktail, if you will. Absolutely. How would you summarize your customers? Cloud strategies? >> Well, I mean, in one word, I'd say Multi cloud, and it's what I've been saying for some time. Is Custer's air really expanding into the cloud and it really expanding into multiple clouds? And what's driving that is the need to take advantage of the innovation in the economics that are offered in the various clouds, and we sit like to say that they're expanding into the cloud because for the vast majority, their coast of our coasters, they have data centers. They're going to continue to have data centers. Nothing's going to keep running in those data centers now. What's happening is they thought it would be easy to start with everyone here. CEO Chuck likes to talk about, however, and thought they just moved to the cloud like moving to another neighborhood. Everything would be great. Well, when they're multiple clouds, you leaving some stuff on him. All of a sudden, what was supposed to be simple and easy becomes quite complex. >> Yeah, I've often said Well, multi club was kind of a symptom of multi vendor. But what you're saying is, essentially, it's it's becoming horses for courses, the workload matching the workload with the best cloud to solve that problem. >> I think it's a feature not above. I think it's here to stay. >> So how is that informing your strategy is Cisco? >> Well, you know, we're very customer responsive, and we see this problem and we look at how we can solve it and what customs have told us is that they want access to the different innovation in these different clouds and the different economic offers in each of these clouds. But they want to do it with less complexity, and they want to do it with less friction. And there's a bunch of areas where they're not looking for innovation. They don't need things work differently in networking. They want one way for networking to work across the multiple clouds and, frankly, to integrate with their own primus. Well. Likewise, for Security. A lot of Custer's air a little freaked out by the idea that there be different security regimes in every cloud that they use and maybe even different than what they already have on him. So they want that to be connected and to work management an application lifecycle. They're worried about that. They're like they don't want it to be different in every single cloud. A map Dynamics is a great example of an asset here. We got strong feedback for our customers that they needed to be able to measure the application performance in a common way across the environments. When imagine going to your CEO and talking about the performance of applications and having different metrics. 2,000,000,000 where it's hosted. It doesn't make any sense in terms of getting business insights. So I've dynamics is another example of something that Custer's one across all of that. So we really see Cisco's role is bringing all of those common capabilities and really reducing the complexity and friction of multi Cobb, enabling our customers to really take the most advantage possible. Multiple cloud. >> So Fabio kept talked about how moving to cloud is a little bit more complex than moving house from one neighborhood to the other. What are some of the key challenges that you guys are seeing? And how specifically is Cisco helping to ameliorate some of those challenges? >> Well, there are some challenges that are squarely in the camp where we can help. Others are related, and probably they're the toughest in clouds to fundamentally acquisition of talent. Right way can help with our custom off course with our partner ecosystem in this case, but a lot of that is really the culture of the company needs to change, right? We keep talking about develops way, keep talking about what does he mean operating this infrastructure in the cloud. It's a whole different ballgame, right? It's a continues integration, continues. Development is actually moving toe agile, kind of softer. The album models. And, you know, I very often do the analogy or what we've seen a few years ago in the data center space where we so actually, the end off the super specialization, like people on Lino in storage, all innit, working on ly computing. And then we saw the rise of people fundamentally expert in in the entire stack. We're seeing the same in the cloud with the rise of the Cloud Architect. These guys now are the ones they're behind building Cloud Centre of excellence. The issue. If you want guidance, where's the control remains into the other team's right. But this is very, very important. So it's overcoming, overcoming the talent gap and knowing how to deal with that on the bottom of that on the other side, so you get a free economy is technology challenges. For instance, embracing Q Burnett is becomes an embracing open source is a big, big challenge, right? You've gotta be able to master this kind of science if you want and trusting partners like, for instance, ourselves and others that will give you a curated versions of the softer image in life. Very often do customer meetings, and I ask how many how many tools to use in production for your Cuban Embassy plantation? And the answer ranges from 20 to 25. It's crazy, right? So imagine if 12 or three of these stools go away. What are you going to do? So you know, it's it's a whole different ball game really going to go into this kind of world. So Kip, we understand >> today, customers are multi cloud and future. It's going to be multi cloud. Think So. >> How do we make >> sure that multi cloud doesn't become least Domine, Denominator Cloud? Or, you know, you really say All I have is this combination of a bunch of pieces like the old multi vendor. How does multi cloud become more powerful than just the sum of its components? Is a good question, and we've really, I mean, way support a lot of different ways of accessing a cloud, Francisco, because we have such a broad Custer base and our goal is really to support our customers. However, they want to work. But we have made a bet in terms of avoiding the lowest common denominator on DH. Some people look ATT, accessing multiple clouds as sort of laying down one software platform and writing their software to one set of AP eyes that they didn't somehow implement in every cloud. And I think that does tend to get you to lowest common denominator because, you know, if you want to be on the Alexis Smart speaker, you have to be on the Lambda Service at a job. Yes, that's it. It doesn't exist anywhere else. And so if you're trying to create a common layer across so your clouds and that's your approach, you have to give up unique capabilities like that. And almost every consumer brand wants to be our needs to be on that election. Smart speaker. So we actually see it is more taking the functions that are not points of innovation, reducing the friction and leaving our customers with the time and energy to focus on taking advantage of their unique capabilities. And Fabio, you're partnering at Cisco with a number of their providers out there. Where are we with the maturity of all this? We were at the Cube con show and you know you're right. There's a lot of different tools. Simple is not what we're discussing, mostly out that show. So what do we solve today? And what kind of things does Cisco and its partners look to be solving kind of in the next 6 to 12 months? >> Partner? Partnering with this big players is absolutely a company priority for us, for Cisco, and one thing that's important is you, said multi vendor at the beginning. That was an interesting common, because if you think about it, multiple out is really business need, right? You want a hardness, innovation wherever it comes from. But then when you work with a specific provider in your reach, critical mass you want tohave integrations with this with this different providers, and that is the hybrid world. So hybrid is more of a technology need to streamline things like networking or security, or the way you storage because the poor things of this nature so that's three. Liza is a big need, and we'll continue, of course, adding more and more from the standpoint of partnerships every every one of the environments in our customers want to uses of interest for us, right to extend their policies to extend our reach. >> So just following up on that partnership, You guys air cloud agnostic, You don't own your own clouds, right? Not selling that. So you were at Google Cloud next to Europe on stage David Gettler, you've got a relationship with as your you got relationship with a W s. Obviously so talking about the importance of partnerships and specific strategy there in terms of your go to market, >> Well, you know, first, all the partnerships or critical I mean, it's you said we're not trying to move the workload Stark filed. And by the way, a lot of our customers has said that something that they value they see us is one of the biggest, most capable companies on the planet. That still is someone. I got sick and ableto work with them on. What's the right answer for their business? Not trying to move everything to one place and those partnerships a critical. So you're going to see us continue Teo building this partnerships. In fact, it's only day one here. I wouldn't be surprised if you saw some news this week on that. >> We were wondering if we're going to see somebody parachute in, that would be exciting. So why Cisco? Uh, ask each of you guys Maybe maybe, kid, you could You could give us the answer from your perspective and an Aussie. The same question. >> Well, from my perspective, it's based on what our customers tell us that again. You know, the things that were very good at things like networking and security are some of the biggest problems that our customs face in taking advantage of clouds and are some of things that they most want common across clouds. So we have a very natural role in this. I actually think back to the founding of Cisco, if you know the story. But it was Sandy Lerner and Limbo zakat Stanford. Their networks couldn't talk each other. You didn't remember back to the days like deck net and apple talk and all these things. It's hard to even recall because this new thing called peace pipe he obviously took over. That was the beginning of Sisko is building the multi protocol router that let those different islands talk each other. In many ways, Custer's see us doing sort of the same thing or want us to do the same thing in a multi cloud world. >> Well, just aside before I ask you, Fabian, a lot of people think that, you know, the microprocessor revolution killed many computers. IPads. Cisco kind of killed many computers to your point. But, Fabio, anything you would add to the sort of wisest >> guy would say, If you want my three seconds elevator peaches, we make multiple easier and more secure. Multiple this complex. So we definitely make it easier through our software. And we have three big buckets if you want there really compelling for for our customers, the 1st 1 is all of our software. Arsenal around weapon on his cloud center work looked a musician manager that helps last summer in building a unified application management kind of soft or sweet across home Prem and any of the public clouds that we've been talking about. The 2nd 1 is, as you said, we build on our DNA, which is, if you want and you heard Gettler today are multi domain kind of architecture, right, which is incredibly relevant in this case, you are not working in security. Fabric really is important there, and the thirties are ability because we don't compete with any other big players to partner with them and solve problems for our customers. So these three buckets are really, really important that deliver. Ah hi business value to >> our customers if I want to come back to something we're talking about is the Customs said the customers don't want a different security regime for each cloud, right? So it's complicated because, first of all, they're trying to struggle with their own security regime anyway, Right? Right? And that's transforming. What is the right right? Sorry security regime in this cloud here. How is it evolving? >> Well, me, What we're doing is we're bringing tools like Te Trae Shen, which now runs on prim and in the clouds. Things like stealth watch what's runs on permanent cloud and simply bringing them security frameworks that are very effective where I think a very capable of well known security vendor, but bringing them the capability to run the same capabilities in there on prem environments in their data centers as well as a multiple public clouds, and that just eliminates the scenes that hackers could maybe get into. It makes common policy possibles. They going to find policy around an application once and have it apply across Balto environments, which not only is easier for them but eliminates potential mistakes that they might make that might leave things open. Joe Hacker. So for us, it's that simple bringing very effective common frameworks for security across all these >> years. You certainly see the awareness of the security imperative moving beyond the SEC ops team. There's no question about that. It's now board level lines of business are worried about. For their digital transformation was data, but our organizations at the point where there operationalize ing security practices and the like, you know, to the extent that they should be >> well, I mean, I think when you say they should be, there's always room for improvement. Okay, but we're seeing just about all of our customers. I mean, as you said, securities is a sea level, if not a board level discussion and just about all of our customers. It's routinely top first or second concern on a survey when Custer's saw about what's concerning them with the clouds. And so we're seeing them really view, you know, security's foundational to what they're doing. >> I mean, it used to be. This sort of failure equals fire mentality. You somebody cracks through, you're fired. And so nobody talked about it. Now I think people realize, look, bad guys are going to get through. It's how you respond to them. Don't you think about how you using analytics, but yeah. So >> when we start just the >> way you were moving quickly >> towards, well, more or less quickly to a zero trust kind ofwork thie action assist you in this area every since the acquisition ofthe duo is performing exceptionally well. And if you want at the top of the security ecosystem in a multi polar world, you find identity because if you don't know who the user or the thing is, they're trying to use a certain application, you're in trouble because perimeter, all security off course is important. But you know that you're going to be penetrated, right? So it boils down to understanding who's doing what and re mediating a soon as possible. So it's a whole different paradigm >> of a security huge tail. When Francisco it's a business growing 21% a year, it's three more than three times the growth of the company. Overall, which is actually still pretty good. Five or 6%. So security rocketship? >> Yeah, Fabio, Just I noticed before we did the interview here that everybody is wearing the T shirts. The cloud takeover is happening here at the definite zone. So give those of us that you know aren't among the 28,000 you know here at the show. A little bit of what's happening from you're >> gonna do something unusual going, gonna turn that question to keep because he was actually on stage >> the second single. Why don't you just get that off? You know, I think it links back to it. Bobby. Always talking about what talent I mean, obviously the most important thing we bring our customers is the technology. We are a technology company, but so many of our customers were asking us to help them with this talent cap. And I think the growth of definite I mean, we're actually sitting here in the definite zone. It's got its own area Here. It's Sisk alive. It's gotten bigger every single year. Here it's just go live. The growth of definite is a sign of how important talent issue is as well as the new certifications that we announce we expanded our certification program to include software conjuncture with Dev. Net. So now people be able to get professional certifications Francisco not just on networking but on software capabilities and skills. And this is something both our partners, our customers have told us. They're really looking for now in terms of the takeover, it's something fun that the definite crew does. I think you're doing five of them during this week. I was really excited, Suzy. We asked us to be the first Eso es the opportunity. Kick it off. It does include beer. So that's one of the nice things. It includes T shirts, both things that I think are prevalent in the developer community. I'll say, Andi, just have an hour where the focus is on cloud technology. So we got everyone in cloud T shirts, a bunch of the experts for my product enduring teams on hand. We had some special presentations, were just many an hour focused on cloud >> Well, and I love that you're doing that definite zone. We've always been super impressed with this whole notion of infrastructures code. I think I've said many times of all the traditional enterprise cos you know computer companies, if you will hae t companies Cisco has done a better job of anybody than making its infrastructure programmable. We're talking about security before it's critical. If you're still tossing stuff over to the operations team, you're gonna be have exposures. Whereas you guys are in a position now and you talk talent, you're transitioning. You know the role of the C C I. A. And now is becoming essentially a developer of infrastructure is code, and it's a very powerful absolutely. I think we're >> helping our partners and our customers transform. Justus were transforming. I think it's kind of a symbiotic relationship that's super important to us. >> It's also important you think about the balancing act between agility, cost, called security or even data assurance. There. Tradeoffs involved the nobs. You have to turn, but you can. You can you achieve all three, you know, to optimize your business. >> Look, there may always be trade offs, but it's not sort of a zero sum game. All those we sing customers who've automated that through things like C I. D. Move Teo, you know, a different place in a much better place where They're not necessarily making trade offs on security to get better agility if they fully off if they fully automated their deployment chains. So they know that there are no mistakes there. They know that they have the ability to roll out fixes if they need to. They know that they're containers, for instance. They're being scanned from a security perspective, very every time they deploy them. They're actually able to build automated infrastructures that are more agile and more secure so that it's pretty exciting. >> So it involves the automated change management and date assurance talking about containers. That's interesting. Spinning up containers. You want to spend it down frequently. So the bad guys that makes it harder for them to get through. >> You talk about BM sprawling, right? Yeah, right. The Janus sprawling biggest issues out there. And by the way, you know, as you automate this infrastructure, rightly so you mention infrastructures code that you can do the other magic, which is introducing machine learning artificial intelligence. And today they get learn such Gupta gave school. Harold, thank you. Have a terrific demonstration off. You know, finding Rocco's analysis for very, very complex kind of problems that will take forever in the old fashion world. Now, all of a sudden you have the management system. In this case, the nation tells you actually where the problem is, and if you value there that you click a button and instantaneously you deploy, you know, new policies and configuration. That's a dream come true. Literally, you may say, probably we're the last ones to the party in terms of infrastructure players, the industry means. But we're getting there very quickly, and this is a whole new set of possibilities now, >> way talking the cube a lot, and I think it's really relevant for what I'm hearing about your strategies. This cloud is about bringing the cloud operating model to your data wherever your data lives. And that seems to be kind of underscore your your strategy. Absolutely. It's so edge cloud on Prem hybrid, you guys, Your strategy is really to enable customers to bring that operating model wherever they need to. Absolutely right >> that transparency is a big deal. I mean, application anywhere, eating. Did I anywhere? That's a world where we're going to >> guys thoughts. Final thoughts on Sisqo live this year. No, it's only day one gets a customer meetings tonight, but initial impression San Diego >> Well, it's It's a well, it's always great to be in San Diego on DH. It's a great facility, and we know our customers really enjoy San Diego is Well, I think we'll have a great customer appreciation event on Wednesday night. Um, but, you know, I was struck. Uh, you just have to the keynote. I mean, the world solutions was buzzing, and there seems to be is always a lot of energy. It's just go live. But somehow so far this season, maybe even a little bit more energy. I know we've got a number of announcements coming this week across a bunch different areas, including clouds. So we're excited for next few days. >> Well, you got the double whammy first half. We were in February when Barcelona guys don't waste any time. You come right back. And June, your final thoughts value. >> Oh, it's just so exciting to speak with customers and partners. Over here, you can touch their excitement. People love to come together and get old. The news, you know, in one place it's this tremendous amount of energy here. >> Keep copter Fabio Gori. Thanks so much for coming on The Cube. Appreciate it. Thank you for having your walkabout, keeper. Right, everybody. We'll be back with our next guest. David Out. A student of Aunt Lisa Martin. We're live from Cisco Live 2019 in San Diego, right back.

(upbeat instrumental music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California. This is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto studios for a CUBE Conversation. It's just a couple of days until RSA kicks off a huge security conference. I think the biggest security conference in the industry. And we've got a security expert here in the house and we're excited to have him stop by. It's Manish Gupta, the Founder and CEO of ShipLeft. Manish, great to see you. >> Yeah, great to see you too, thank you. >> Welcome. So you must be really busy getting everything buttoned up for next week. >> Oh yeah, absolutely ready to go. >> Alright so for the people that aren't familiar with ShiftLeft, give us kind of the basic overview. >> Yeah of course. So ShiftLeft about a two and a half year old company. We started with the problem of you know, the software's driving innovation all around us, right? I mean, we see it in autonomous cars, IoTs, increasingly SwaaS software in the cloud. And all of the software needs to be figured out, how are we going to protect it. And so it's a big problem, and we've been working on it for about two and a half years now. Raised our Series A and most recently in the last two weeks, we announced our Series B of 20 Million. >> Congratulations. >> Amazing team, yeah! >> So, you've been in the security space for a long time. >> Correct. >> And RSA's a giant conference. I don't know what the numbers will be this year. I'm sure it'll be north of 40 thousand people. Moscone North, South and West will be full. Every hotel is full. But it kind of begs a question, like, haven't we got some of the security thing figured out? It's just a never-ending kind of startup opportunities as there's new ways to approach this kind of fundamental problem which is, how do we keep the bad guys out. How do we keep them from doing bad things while the surface area expands exponentially. The attack surface expands. And we hear every day that people are getting breached and breached and breached. So the whole ecosystem, and kind of approach has completely changed over the time that you've been involved in this business. >> Indeed, as you said, I've been in cybersecurity for a long time. I like to say the last 15 years, first part of my career, I was focused on detecting viruses. Then it became worms. Then most recently at FireEye, we were detecting advanced malware nation-state attacks like APT1s and APT3s. But it was then that sort of, it dawned on me that, look about 80% of security money gets spent on detecting bad stuff, right? And that's reactive. Essentially what that means is we are letting the bad guy shoot first and then we are trying to figure out, okay what are we going to do now. >> We're waiting like 150 days right, down from 230 days, before we even-- >> Exactly. >> know that he's shootin' at us. >> That's right. Now couple that with as you said, the attack surface is ever increasing, right. Because we're using software in every which way which means all of this stuff needs to be protected. And so that's why we were wanted to start with a fresh perspective which is to say, let's not worry about attacks. Because that is not in our control. That's in the bad guys' control. What can we control? Which is our software. And so, that is why what we do at ShiftLeft is to understand the software very quickly, extract its attack surface in minutes, and then allow you to fix whatever you want to, whatever you can during the time frame you have available. And here comes the next innovation which is, if you don't fix anything, which is almost always the case, we will protect the application in production. Now the key is, we protect the application in production against its vulnerabilities. So we never ever react to threats. We don't care. >> So you have like a wrapper around the known vulnerabilities within the code. Is that a good desciption? >> Yes, you could absolutely, that's a good way of thinking about it is you know, let's say a million lines of code. We find 10 vulnerabilities in it. So it's only in 10 specific instances of the application. Now we also know what vulnerabilities exist on line 100 and line 200 and so on. And with that knowledge, we can very precisely protect each vulnerability. >> It's a really interesting approach. You know, one of the things I find fascinating with security is it's kind of like insurance. >> Mm hmm. >> In theory, you could spend 110% of all your revenue budget >> Correct. >> on security, but you can't so you have to make trade off decisions. You have to make business value decisions and you have to prioritize. So this is a really different approach, that you're offering an option either to fix the known, and/or just to protect the known, so that there's some variability in the kind of the degree of investment that the customer wants to spend. >> You summed it up well, Jeff. I think the fundamental challenge with security has been that. Is that ya know, 15 years ago we've asked our customers to buy antivirus. Then we asked them to buy intrusion detection. Then we asked them to buy nation-state or malware protection. Now we're asking them to buy machine learning based mechanisms to detect more threats, right? And so the funnel is like this, right, but it never goes down to zero. And so tomorrow some other approach will come up to detect the 0.1% of the malware. And guess what? The sys-os really don't have a choice right? Because they have to protect their organization. So they have to buy that tool also. Now in this entire process, you never get better, right? Notice that you never get better. All you're doing is just reacting. And because a virus from 15 years ago theoretically could still come and attack you, you can't throw away that too either. Right, and so that is precisely why I'm so passionate about work we're doing at ShiftLeft is we will protect you from, in sort of in bad continuous improvement for the first time in security. Find the vulnerabilities, fix them. But if you can't fix them, we will protect you. >> Now, what about another kind of big shift in the way software is delivered, is everything is an API to someone else's software. And oftentimes there's many many components that are being pulled in from many many places that contribute to, but aren't software that I control personally. >> Correct. >> So how do you guys deal with those types of challenges? >> Great question, great question. And you know, the popular saying is we are becoming an API economy. >> Right, right. >> And what we exchange on our APIs is increasingly a lot of data. And you're right. If you think about historical approaches, we will now have to break open the API on a network, to find out what it contains. And for various reasons, super hard to do, lots of operational efficiencies, inefficiencies, excuse me. And this is again where the ShiftLeft approach is rather unique. See because we go down to the very foundation. It's hard work right, but we go down to the very foundation, what is the source code of the API. So we will understand, okay, well this is what you should be putting in the API, right? But then I see that a variable called Personally Identifiable Information is being put into that API. I can now tell you before this becomes a problem that'll embarrass you in the newspapers. I, we will tell you, hey look, you are writing PII to a third party API without encryption, right. So you get to fix the problem at the very root where it starts. >> So but, can you wrap the known vulnerability in a partner piece of software? >> Absolutely we can. >> As it interfaces with my software? >> Correct. So, there are two aspects to it right. The first is what are you putting into that API, right, that is completely in your control. >> Right. >> Right, we don't really need to understand the API for that matter. So that is one particular use case we can absolutely protect you there, right. The second is when the API, when integrated into your application, makes your application vulnerable. Right, so I'll give you an example. This happened to one our our customers. This is a 3,500 person technical, technology company based here in Santa Clara. They were using a third party API. Very popular one. That third party API in turn was using a Jackson databind library, just an open source library. Now, as a company when we decide to use that API, we don't really worry about, we don't have visibility into like what all is it hurting. >> Downstream. >> Exactly. >> And how many feeds are in that one particular one. >> That's right. And so this is the supply chain of software. Right? Multiple components are now being brought together very quickly to create the functionality that you want to deliver to your users, to your customers. But in this pace of execution, we need tools like ShiftLeft to tell us hey what are we hurting. And whatever we are hurting, how is that impacting the security of our application. >> Right, right. Pretty interesting stuff, you got another component of something that's really important today that wasn't necessarily when you started this adventure. And that's the open source play. >> Yes. >> So as I understand it, you guys started really from more of an open source play and then ShiftLeft grew out of kind of commercializing what was that open source project. I wonder if can explain a little bit more. >> Yeah, I would love to. So the foundation of what we do is a technology called Core Property Graph. So, this is an invention of our chief scientist, Dr. Fabian Yamaguchi, one of the foremost authorities in the world, in the area of understanding code, right. And so as part of his PhD thesis, he came up with this technology and decided to open source a tool called Joern. >> Joern. J-O-E-R-N. >> That's right. >> Not easy to figure out, Joern yes. (laughing) >> Exactly. And it's actually his friend's name so that's how he named it. >> Ah, is that right? >> So he open sourced it and several organizations around the world have since used it to find very hard to find vulnerabilities. Right so as an example, this is a IEEE paper where this technology was used by Fabian to find 18 zero-day vulnerabilities in the main line Linux code, right. So arguably one of the most complex pieces of code on the planet, 15 million lines of code. Arguably one of the most analyzed pieces of code on the planet. And as recently as 2015, he finds 18 zero-days. And no false positives. Every single vulnerabilty has been acknowledged and fixed by the Linux community. That's the power. And so we use that as the foundation. So you write that as open source but since then we've done a lot of incremental work on enhancing it to make it enterprise ready. And that is a product we offer. as call this Ocular. Where we give you, think about it as my best analogy, is just like Google Maps for your source code. >> Yeah, I think it's a good analogy and he goes through that in one of his videos kind of explaining the mapping. >> Correct. >> Of different layers of kind of visibility into how you should look at software code. >> Indeed. >> Yeah alright, well before we let ya go, you got some exciting things happening next week beyond just the regular activities at RSA. You guys have been invited to participate in a special activity. I wonder if you can share a little bit and give a plug and maybe we can send some fans up to, I dunno if it's going to be audience participation in the judging. >> Yes. >> Go ahead and let us know what you're doing. >> Thank you for giving me that opportunity. Yeah super, super excited about, so we've been selected as one of the top 10 finalists for the RSA Innovation Sandbox. As you mentioned in your opening, RSA is the biggest security trade show in the world. And so now this has become the most seminal way of highlighting innovative work being done in the security industry. So I get three minutes to pitch ShiftLeft in front of an audience of about 1,500 to 2,000 people. Really looking forward to that. >> Well I dunno if you can speed this up to only three minutes (laughing) but I'm sure you'll be able to nail it. >> I will try. >> Alright well Manish, thanks for taking a few minutes of your day and I'm sure we'll see you in San Francisco next week. >> Thank you very much, thank you. >> Alright, It's Manish, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. We're having a CUBE Conversation in our Palo Alto studios. Thanks for watchin' and we'll see ya next time. (upbeat music)