(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome to the AWS partner showcase. This is season one, episode three. And I'm your host, Lisa Martin. I've got two great guests here with me to talk about Women in Tech. Hillary Ashton joins us, the chief product officer at Teradata, and Danielle Greshock is back with us, the ISV PSA director at AWS Ladies. It's great to have you on the program talking through such an important topic. Hillary, let's go ahead and start with you. Give us a little bit of an intro into you, your background and a little bit about Teradata. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Hillary Ashton. I head up the products organization. So that's our engineering, product management, officer of the CTO team at Teradata. I've been with Teradata for just about three years and really have spent the last several decades, if I can say that in the data and analytics space. I spent time really focused on the value of analytics at scale, and I'm super excited to be here at Teradata. I'm also a mom of two teenage boys. And so as we talk about women in tech, I think there's lots of different dimensions and angles of that. At Teradata we are partnered very deeply with AWS and happy to talk a little bit more about that throughout this discussion as well. >> Excellent. A busy mom of two teen boys. My goodness. I don't know how you do it. Let's now look at Teradata's views of diversity, equity and inclusion. It's a topic that's important to everyone but give us a snapshot into some of the initiatives that Teradata has there. >> Yeah, I have to say, I am super proud to be working at Teradata. We have gone through a series of transformations but I think it starts with culture and we are deeply committed to diversity, equity and inclusion. It's really more than just a statement here. It's just how we live our lives. And we use data to back that up. In fact, we were named one of the world's most ethical companies for the 13th year in a row. And all of our executive leadership team has taken an oath around DE&I, that's available on LinkedIn as well. So in fact, our leadership team reporting into the CEO is just about 50/50 men and women which is the first time I've worked in a company where that has been the case. And I think as individuals, we can probably appreciate what a huge difference that makes in terms of not just being a representative, but truly being on a diverse and equitable team. And I think it really improves the behaviors that we can bring to our office. >> There's so much value in that. It's I impressive to see about a 50/50 at the leadership level. That's not something that we see very often. Tell me how you, Hillary, how did you get into tech? Were you an engineering person by computer science or did you have more of a zigzaggy path to where you are now? >> I'm going to pick door number two and say more zigzaggy. I started off thinking that, I started off as a political science major or a government major and I was probably destined to go into the law field but actually took a summer course at Harvard, I did not go to Harvard, but I took a summer course there and learned a lot about multimedia and some programming. And that really set me on a trajectory of how data and analytics can truly provide value and outcomes to our customers. And I have been living that life ever since I graduated from college. So I was very excited and privileged in my early career to work in a company where I found after my first year that I was managing kids, people who had graduated from Harvard Business School and from MIT Sloan School. And that was super crazy 'cause I did not go to either of those schools but I sort of have always had a natural knack for how do you take technology and the really cool things that technology can do, but because I'm not a programmer by training, I'm really focused on the value that I'm able to help organizations really extract value from the technology that we can create, which I think is fantastic. >> I think there's so much value in having a zigzag path into tech. You bring... Danielle, you and I have talked about this many times, you bring such breadth and such a wide perspective that really is such a value add to teams. Danielle, talk to us from AWS's perspective about what can be done to encourage more young women to get, and underrepresented groups as well to get into STEM and stay. >> Yeah, and this is definitely a challenge as we're trying to grow our organization and kind of shift the numbers. And the reality is, especially with the more senior folks in our organization, unless you bring folks with a zigzag path, the likelihood is you won't be able to change the numbers that you have. But for me, it's really been about looking at that, the folks who are just graduating college, maybe in other roles where they are adjacent to technology and to try to spark their interest and show that, yes, they can do it because oftentimes it's really about believing in themselves and realizing that we need folks with all sorts of different perspectives to kind of come in to be able to help really provide both products and services and solutions for all types of people inside of technology which requires all sorts of perspectives. >> Yeah, the diverse perspectives. There's so much value and there's a lot of data that demonstrates how much value, revenue impact organizations can make by having diversity especially at the leadership level. Hillary, let's go back to you. We talked about your career path. You talked about some of the importance of the focus on DE&I at Teradata, but what do you think can be done to encourage, sorry, to recruit more young women and under represented groups into tech, any carrots there that you think are really important that we need to be dangling more of? >> Yeah, absolutely. And I'll build on what Danielle just said. I think the bringing in diverse understandings of customer outcomes, I mean, we've really moved from technology for technology's sake. And I know AWS and Entirety have had a lot of conversations on how do we drive customer outcomes that are differentiated in the market and really being customer-centric. And technology is wonderful. You can do wonderful things with it. You can do not so wonderful things with it as well but unless you're really focused on the outcomes and what customers are seeking technology is not hugely valuable. And so I think bringing in people who understand voice of customer, who understand those outcomes and those are not necessarily the folks who are PhD in mathematics or statistics, those can be people who understand a day in the life of a data scientist or a day in the life of a citizen data scientist. And so really working to bridge the high impact technology with the practical kind of usability, usefulness of data and analytics in our cases, I think is something that we need more of in tech and sort of demystifying tech and freeing technology so that everybody can use it and having a really wide range of people who understand not just the bits and bites and and how to program, but also the value and outcomes that technology through data and analytics can drive. >> Yeah. You know, we often talk about the hard skills but the soft skills are equally, if not more important that even just being curious, being willing to ask questions being not afraid to be vulnerable, being able to show those sides of your personality. I think those are important for young women and underrepresented groups to understand that those are just as important as some of the harder technical skills that can be taught. >> That's right. >> What do you think about from a bias perspective, Hillary, what have you seen in the tech industry and how do you think we can leverage culture as you talked about to help dial down some of the biases that are going on? >> Yeah. I mean, I think first of all, and there's some interesting data out there that says that 90% of the population, which includes a lot of women have some inherent bias in their day to day behaviors when it comes to women in particular. But I'm sure that that is true across all kinds of of diverse and underrepresented folks in the world. And so I think acknowledging that we have bias and actually really learning what that can look like, how that can show up, we might be sitting here and thinking, oh, of course I don't have any bias. And then you realize that as you learn more about different types of bias that actually you do need to kind of account for that and change behaviors. And so I think learning is sort of a fundamental grounding for all of us to really know what bias looks like, know how it shows up in each of us, if we're leaders, know how it shows up in our teams and make sure that we are constantly getting better. We're not going to be perfect anytime soon, but I think being on a path to improvement to overcoming bias is really critical. And part of that is really starting the dialogue, having the conversations, holding ourselves and each other accountable when things aren't going in a copesthetic way, and being able to talk openly about that felt like maybe there was some bias in that interaction and how do we make good on that? How do we change our behavior fundamentally. Of course, data and analytics can have some bias in it as well. And so I think as we look at the technology aspect of bias, looking at at ethical AI I think is a really important additional area. And I'm sure we could spend another 20 minutes talking about that, but I would be remiss if I didn't talk more about sort of the bias and the opportunity to overcome bias in data and analytics as well. >> Yeah. The opportunity to overcome it is definitely there, you bring up a couple of really good points, Hillary. It starts with awareness. We need to be aware that there are inherent biases in data in thought. And also to your other point, hold people accountable, ourselves, our teammates that's critical to being able to dial that back down. Danielle, I want to get your perspective on your view of women in leadership roles. Do you think that we have good representation or we still have work to do in there? >> I definitely think in both technical and product roles we definitely have some work to do. And when I think about our partnership with Teradata, part of the reason why it's so important is, Teradata solution is really the brains of a lot of companies, what they differentiate on, how they figure out insights into their business. And it's all about the product itself and the data, and the same is true at AWS. And we really could do some work to have some more women in these technical roles as well as in the product, shaping the products, just for all the reasons that we just kind of talked about over the last 10 minutes in order to move bias out of our solutions and also to just build better products and have better outcomes for customers. So I think there's a bit of work to do still. >> I agree. There's definitely a bit of work to do and it's all about delivering those better outcomes for customers at the end of the day. We need to figure out what the right ways are of doing that and working together in a community. We've had obviously a lot had changed in the last couple of years. Hillary, what have you seen in terms of the impact that the pandemic has had on this status of women in tech? Has it been a pro, is silver lining, the opposite? What are you seeing? >> Yeah, I mean, certainly there's data out there that tells us factually that it has been very difficult for women during COVID-19. Women have dropped out of the workforce for a wide range of reasons. And that I think is going to set us back all of us, the Royal us or the Royal we back years and years. And it's very unfortunate because I think we're at a time when we're making great progress and now to see COVID setting us back in such a powerful way I think there's work to be done to understand how do we bring people back into the workforce? How do we do that understanding work life balance better, understanding virtual and remote working better. I think in the technology sector we've really embraced hybrid virtual work and are empowering people to bring their whole selves to work. And I think if anything, these Zoom calls have, both for the men and the women on my team. In fact, I would say much more so for the men on my team, we're seeing more kids in the background, more kind of split childcare duties, more ability to start talking about other responsibilities that maybe they had, especially in the early days of COVID where maybe day cares were shut down and maybe a parent was sick. And so we saw quite a lot of people bringing their whole selves to the office which I think was really wonderful. Even our CEO saw some of that. And I think that that really changes the dialogue. It changes it to maybe scheduling meetings at a time when people can do it after daycare drop off and really allowing that both for men and for women, makes it better for women overall. So I would like to think that this hybrid working environment and that this whole view into somebody's life that COVID has really provided for, probably for white collar workers, if I'm being honest for people who are at a better point of privilege, they don't necessarily have to go into the office every day. I would like to think that tech can lead the way in coming out of the old COVID, I don't know if we have a new COVID coming, but the old COVID and really leading the way for women and for people to transform how we do work, leveraging data and analytics but also overcoming some of the disparities that exist for women in particular in the workforce. >> Yeah, I think there's, like we say, there's a lot of opportunity there and I like your point of hopefully tech can be that guiding light that shows us this can be done. We're all humans at the end of the day. And ultimately, if we're able to have some sort of work life balance, everything benefits. Our work, we're more productive, higher performing teams impacts customers. There's so much value that can be gleaned from that hybrid model and embracing for humans. We need to be able to work when we can. We've learned that you don't have to be in an office 24/7 commuting crazy hours, flying all around the world. We can get a lot of things done in ways that fit people's lives rather than taking command over it. I want to get your advice, Hillary, if you were to talk to your younger self, what would be some of the key pieces of advice you would say? And Danielle and I have talked about this before, and sometimes we would both agree on like, ask more questions, don't be afraid to raise your hand, but what advice would you give your younger self and that younger generation in terms of being inspired to get into tech? >> Oh, inspired in being in tech. I think looking at technology as, in some ways I feel like we do a disservice to inclusion when we talk about STEM, 'cause I think stem can be kind of daunting, it can be a little scary for people, for younger people. When I go and talk to folks at schools, I think STEM is like, oh, all the super smart kids are over there. They're all, like maybe they're all men. And so it's a little intimidating. And STEM is actually, especially for people joining the workforce today, it's actually how you've been living your life since you were born. I mean, you know STEM inside and out because you walk around with a phone and you know how to get your internet working and like that is technology fundamentally. And so demystifying STEM as something that is around how we actually make our our lives useful and how we can change outcomes through technology, I think is maybe a different lens to put on it. And there's absolutely, for hard scientists, there's absolutely a great place in the world for folks who want to pursue that, and men and women can do that. So I don't want to be setting the wrong expectations but I think STEM is very holistic in the change that's happening globally for us today across economies, across global warming, across all kinds of impactful issues. And so I think everybody who's interested in some of that world change can participate in STEM. It just may be through a different lens than how we classically talk about STEM. So I think there's great opportunity to demystify STEM. I think also what I would tell my younger self is choose your bosses wisely. And that sounds really funny. That sounds like inside out almost but I think choose the person that you're going to work for in your first five to seven years. And it might be more than one person, but be selective. Maybe be a little less selective about the exact company or the exact title. I think picking somebody that, we talk about mentors and we talk about sponsors and those are important, but the person you're going to spend in your early career, a lot of your day with, who's going to influence a lot of the outcomes for you. That is the person that you, I think want to be more selective about because that person can set you up for success and give you opportunities and set you on course to be a standout or that person can hold you back and that person can put you in the corner and not invite you to the meetings and not give you those opportunities. And so we're in an economy today where you actually can be a little bit picky about who you go and work for. And I would encourage my younger self, I just lucked out actually, but I think that my first boss really set me up for success, gave me a lot of feedback and coaching. And some of it was really hard to hear but it really set me up for the path that I've been on ever since. So that would be my advice. >> I love that advice. It's brilliant. And I think it, choose your bosses wisely, isn't something that we primarily think about. I think a lot of people think about the big name companies that they want to go after and put on a resume, but you bring up a great point. And Danielle and I have talked about this with other guests about mentors and sponsors. I think that is brilliant advice, and also more work to do to demystify STEM. But luckily we have great female leaders like the two of you helping us to do that. Ladies, I want to thank you so much for joining me on the program today and talking through what you're seeing in DE&I, what your companies are doing and the opportunities that we have to move the needle. Appreciate your time. >> Thank you so much. Great to see you, Danielle. Thank you, Lisa. >> Nice to see you. >> My pleasure. For my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the AWS partner showcase season one, episode three. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> And welcome back. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're excited to welcome Teradata back to theCUBE and today with us at the ARIA is re:MARS conference coverage. It's great to hear with Hillary Ashton, Chief Product Officer of Teradata. Great to have you on. Thanks for coming on. >> John, thanks so much for having me. I'm super excited to be joining you today. >> So re:MARS, what a great event. It brings together the confluence of machine learning, which is data, automation, robotics, and space. Which is to me, is a whole new genre of conversations, around technology and business value. It is going to be a big kind of area. And it's just, again just getting started any one, as they say, and super excited. Tell us about what you guys are doing there and yourself. >> About two and a half years ago I head up the products organization. That means I have responsibility for our roadmap and our and our strategy overall on the product side. Prior to coming Teradata, gosh, I have spent the last 20 years, if I can say that, in the data and analytics space. I grew up in marketing application space, spent 11 years at SaaS, really cut my teeth on hardcore AI, ML and analytics at SaaS, and most recently was at PTC, where I was in charge of, I was a general manager of augmented reality, the business unit at PTC, focused on IOT data and how IOT data and augmented reality can really bring machines to life. >> It's interesting. You talked about SaaS and kind of your background, you know everything SaaSified with the cloud now. So you think about platform as a service, SaaS models emerging, software is an open source game now. So it's an integration cloud-scale data conversation we're seeing. What's your reaction to that? What's your reaction to that kind of idea that, okay, everything's open to source, software value integrating in with data. What's your reaction to that? >> Yeah, I mean, I think open source absolutely has some awesome things going on there. I think there's great opportunities for commercial, reliable, governed software and open source capabilities to come together in an open ecosystem that allow our customers to choose the best way to deliver the analytic outcomes that they're focused on. >> So you guys have been in the news lately around connecting multicloud data analytics platforms and transforming businesses around there, obviously, the background with Teradata is well documented. What's this news about? What's really going on there? You got Vantage platform. What's happening? Take us through that story. What's the key point? >> Yeah, we've worked super hard to deliver a true, multicloud, hybrid, data platform. So, if you think customers, many of our enterprise customers started with on-premises data systems and are moving violently to the cloud, right? So they're super excited about moving to the cloud but being able to deploy on multiple clouds, I think is important and then importantly, sort of this hybrid notion of being able to leverage data that's on-premises and combine it with data in the cloud on AWS, for example. And so being able to do those hybrid use cases you may have data that's like older and kind of archaic, needs to stay on-premises. There's not a lot of value in moving it to the cloud but you want to combine it with some of the innovative, analytic capabilities that perhaps you're doing on AWS. And so Teradata allows you to live in that hybrid multicloud environment and deliver analytic outcomes wherever your data is. >> Hillary, one of the top conversations is data cloud. You got to have a data cloud. I want to deal with this, move this around, but there's a lot of now integration opportunities to bring data from different sources together whether you're in healthcare, all the verticals have the same use case, multiple access to different databases, bringing them all together, ETL, all that old-school stuff is coming back in and being kind of refactored with machine learning, with cloud scale, with platforms like AWS, there's now this new commitment to bringing this to the next level for enterprises. And you mentioned some of those partnerships. What specifically is going on in the cloud that's notable, that's realistically that customers are executing on now? Not the hype, the reality. >> The reality. Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, I think today with Teradata our customers are leveraging something that we call a query fabric. And so this is the idea, as you said, John, that data might be in a lot of different places and you want to be able to get value out of that data without the difficulty of moving it around unnecessarily. Sometimes you want to move it around but unnecessary data movement is both expensive and an inefficient use of precious time. And so I think that there's an opportunity for this query fabric to be able to do remote push-down queries, wherever that data is and return back the results that you are looking for, analytic results, AI and ML results, combining different data that's in different locations to deliver that analytic outcome quickly without having to move the data around. So I would say query fabric is one of the areas that we are super invested in and, today, is delivering real value for our customers. >> It's really interesting. Data being addressable and available, low latency. I mean, we're talking about space, automation, robotics, real-time, so you have different data types stored in different data vehicles or mechanisms that need to be real-time and available. Because machine learning only works as good as the data they has available to it. So again, this is a key, kind of new way that folks are re-architecting. And again, we're here at, at re:MARS, right? I mean to machine learning automation, robotics and space, kind of the real world, physical, digital, trust, scale, huge concepts here. What's the partnership? How's it working with AWS? Take us through that strong partnership that you guys are developing. >> Yeah. I mean, we have a fantastic relationship with AWS. We're really excited that we signed a strategic collaboration agreement at the end of last year that really puts us in an elite category of AWS partners. We're really committed to co-investing and co-engineering with Amazon and our product development organization and also in go-to market and marketing and other parts of our business. As the Chief Product Officer, I'm really excited about three key areas. First is we've optimized Teradata Vantage to run in the AWS cloud at great scale, with unparalleled scale at the highest level for our customers. And so we've partnered with them to be able to handle some of the complex analytic workloads. And we think of analytic models are one part of a workload. There may be other ELT that you talked about, right? Workloads that you may need to run, all of that running at tremendous scale with AWS in the cloud. The second area is deep integration. So Teradata used to think that we were the ecosystem. We built everything soup connects end-to-end. Today, we live in a really exciting data and analytics space and we partner closely with CSPs like AWS, where we are deeply integrated. We have dozens of AWS native integrations in our AWS offer today. And that lets customers take advantage of AWS X3 for Cloud Lake, for example Amazon Kinesis for data ingestion and streaming and on and on. So we're really focused on the integration area there. And then finally, we've developed, co-developed with AWS, a fast and low risk migration approach to move from on-premises to the cloud for our enterprise customers. >> You know, what's interesting is as we kind of weave together, I hear you talking about those three areas. I mentioned earlier at the top of the interview, how integration is now the competitive advantage. Software is almost going commodity with open source because you mentioned that. All good, right? All good stuff. But when you think about kind of the big trends in this new computing world, it's hybrid cloud, it's edge, and IOT, okay? Again, cloud-scale and these new connected points, trust, access, all these things have to be integrated. So integration, you guys have been in the middle, Teradata has been around for a long time, leader in data warehousing, but now with cloud and in the data types, this is a game changer. I mean, this is notable. Can you share more about how you see this evolving with customers because at the end of the day the integration becomes super critical. >> Yeah, absolutely. And I'm super passionate about the opportunities of IOT streaming data. And that's one of the key areas of partnership with Amazon is taking that streaming data, leveraging the analytic opportunities with Amazon. We'll talk about that in just a second, but I think some of the examples that I could share with you, everyone loves to hear, I love to hear, about what actual customers are doing. So Brinker International, they're one of the world's largest casual dining restaurants. If you've ever been to a Chili's Grill or Maggiano's Little Italy those are the guys, Brinker International owns those brands. So we leveraged Amazon SageMaker and Teradata Vantage together to apply advanced analytic and predictive modeling to be able to understand things like demand. And you're in the middle of COVID and trying to understand how many people should you have on staff today? What is the demand going to look like? What should sales look like? What's foot traffic look like? So that demand forecasting capability across their 1,600 different store fronts or restaurant fronts is one of the examples that I could share with you. The other one is Hertz. So one of the world's largest vehicle rental companies. They are using Vantage and AWS together to track and analyze transaction data across all of its global locations and manage again that complex inventory. And some of that is streaming data, some of that is data that we're getting from the cars themselves, and then create a new value-added program to their loyalty members which is sort of the name of the game. Is customer acquisition and extension of brand across those customers. So those are two examples I can share with you. There's many, many others but I know you probably had some other questions. >> Yeah. I want to come back to the SageMaker thing. I think that's important partnership there because it's been one of the fastest growing services. It's always at the top or in the top two or three whenever I talk to Andy Jassy and the team over there. But I want to talk about scalability and I want to ask you, if you can scope for me the scalability of what's going on with this data challenging, 'cause where are we on that scale? Can you share how you would scope the scale? >> Absolutely. And I love talking about scale because it is a home run for Teradata. I think many customers start looking at the cloud and they start with kind of a little tiny baby footprints but we are an enterprise solution, an enterprise platform. And so I think that we're looking at tens of thousands of users and thousands of business critical applications. That's what our customers are doing and have done for decades with Teradata and bringing all of that scale to the cloud. And with AWS in particular, we recently did 1,000 node testing. I'm going to walk through this a little bit slowly, which is hard for me, as you can tell, but it was a single system of more than 1,000 nodes which is just to give you a sense, that's double our largest on-premises system. So it's huge. It was the single largest system. >> John: Double is your largest customer deployment? >> Double our largest customer deployment on-premises. Yeah, that's right. So it was 1,000 nodes with more than 1,000 different users submitting thousands of concurrent queries. So huge enterprise scale. And this was a real-world use case. We took not a traditional benchmark but a real world customer set of mixed workloads. So lots of long running strategic queries and lots of fast running queries that needed really tight SLAs. All of that running simultaneously. We saw no system down times, we were able to roll out and roll back new capabilities seamlessly in a true software as a service fashion. So that was an awesome test all run on AWS. And I think that their team was just as excited as we were about it. >> Well, I love the scale. I love that test you guys ran. I see you're sponsoring re:MARS which is great, congratulations. We love covering since the beginning, we believe of kind of a whole new genre of programming brings together the confluence of exciting technologies that just a decade ago weren't always working together. They were bespoke. >> That's right. Yeah. >> So now it's all integrated in at cloud scale, you got the test, got thousands of concurrents queries. What else are you showcasing? You mentioned the SageMaker because that's really where Amazon's connecting all these tools. How are you integrating in? It sounds like you're bringing all that Amazon goodness in with Teradata and vice versa. >> Absolutely. We're delivering sort of the best in class to our customers jointly. So here re:MARS today, we're really excited to be talking about SageMaker and our relationship with AWS to be able to deliver that seamless integration between our solutions for machine learning services and Teradata Vantage. So I'm sure it won't come as any surprise to you as we just talked about, but we're finding that massive investments in AI and ML and other advanced analytic capabilities are out there, and many organizations are really only experimenting. They're just starting to explore some of these opportunities. We think that there's tremendous value in this scale that we just talked about, that we can offer, combined with best in class AI and ML capabilities like SageMaker. And so we are excited to talk about it. If you want to see it, we've got a booth set up, you can come and take a look at what we're doing there but I think there's huge opportunities for customers to get to the analytic value with Teradata Vantage and AWS SageMaker. >> Yeah, it's great to see Teradata seeing that headroom opportunity to extend the value proposition to kind of new territory with your customers. I can definitely see it. Love the connection here. Where can they learn more about the Teradata partnership with AWS and Amazon? Is there a site? Is there a program coming? Is there any more content that they can be expecting to see? Take a little plug time to plug the company. >> If you insist, I will, John. Thank you. I think, if you're at the event right now, you can swing by Teradata's booth. We're at booth 111. You can get a demo of our SageMaker integration and learn more about both our enterprise scale and the advanced outcomes that we're able to provide to our customers. If you're not at re:MARS and we really think you should be, we would encourage you to sign up for one of our upcoming SageMaker webinars that we're doing with AWS this year. And if you'd like to, you can also just email us at aws@teradata.com. Again, that's aws@teradata.com and we'll set up a private demo for you. >> Well, Hillary Ashton, great to have you on. Chief Product Officer, Teradata, you must be feeling good. You got a lot to work with. You've got an install base. You have new territory to take down. As the Chief Product Officer, you got the keys to the kingdom. Give us a quick bumper sticker of where you guys are going with the product. >> We are fast and furious. My team will tell you, we are so excited to be here with AWS and Teradata is on an epic trajectory forward in our cloud first approach, so we are so excited about our roadmap. If you'd like to learn more, please swing by teradata.com. >> Lot of innovation happening. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Okay, this is theCUBE coverage of Amazon re:MARS machine learning, automation, robotics, and space. It cuts the confluence of digital, virtual data and real-world and space. You can't get any more than this. That's a big edge out there in space. Talk about edge computing and space. Of course, theCUBE's here covering it. I'm John Furrier, your host. Stay with us for more coverage here at Amazon re:MARS. (upbeat music)

(light techno music) >> Okay, welcome back, everyone from theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Mars here in Las Vegas. Back in person, I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Re:MARS stands or Machine learning, Automation, Robotics, and Space. And we're covering all the action two days, day two. And we're here with Regina Manfredi, who's the VP of global CSPs, Cloud Service Providers Alliances with Teradata. Great to see you. Cloud service providers or- >> Cloud services providers, the hyperscalers. >> Hyperscalers, the big guys. All the CapEx, Amazon. >> Yes. >> The big guys. >> Indeed, thanks for having me. >> Yeah, Thanks for coming on. So tell about your role. So alliances, you're here with AWS. What's the role with AWS and Teradata? >> So AWS and Teradata have recently entered into a strategic collaboration agreement where we're really focused on building solutions together, leveraging AWS services, as well as Teradata's outstanding architecture, as it relates to the data analytics platform that we provide for our customers in the cloud today. And we're really trying to drive better outcomes for data scientists, business analysts, etc. >> You know, just recently, did a CUBE conversation with Teradata, and I was really surprised to find, not shocked, but kind of surprised, the scale of the computation that's going on in some of the cloud things you're doing. And you have the legacy on-premises data warehouse traditional business as well. >> Regina: We do. >> And there's a huge shift going on. A lot of the kind of upstarts, "Oh, data warehouse, old school. Data warehouse, it's antiquated, old," but that's not true. You guys have a lot of cloud action. >> We do, we have substantial cloud action that's occurring with our customers today. We actually just released earlier this year an announcement around 1,000 node tests in the cloud together with AWS, and had success, no downtime, no failures at all. And so we're pretty proud about that, and excited about what that's going to hold for our customers who need that level of scale. >> Well, Regina, I got to tell you, I have a little bit of a confession here. I'm a cloud data nerd by my training. And, you know, I've always watched all the different kind of levels of transformation with the industry, and you know, this is going to change that, that's going to kill that. Everything's going to be killed and then it never dies, but it just changes. Even today, SQL is still like the prominent language, it's never going to, in fact it's amplified further because that's what people like. So that just proves that things don't always get replaced. And so I wanted to ask you this because as we're here at this event at re:MARS, you have space, you have all these ambitious positive goals, and they just need to do some machine learning. They need some cloud, they need some, they need to have the solutions. >> Regina: Yes. They're not going to like get in the weed and say, "Oh, this is a better Hadoop cluster than this Kubernetes cluster. So it's not about sometimes the tech, it's about the solution. >> It is, and one of the things that was interesting for us in our session earlier this week was the fact that we had so many customers approach us after that session and say, "I just need help preparing my data. Running my models, training my models, and making sure that they run and can be deployed. And I don't want to move all this data all the time and have all this failure rate that I'm experiencing." And so it was very basic requirements and needs as people begin into their journey on AI/ML for their business. And so it was reaffirming that we're on the right track and driving the right tools for them. I want to get your perspective on what you're thinking about the show, but first, I want to ask this since you brought that up. Swami was on stage and he said, "You can spend your entire time and your career just trying to figure out what's going on, machine learning." >> Regina: Yup. >> "Which open source framework's going to be better than the other one." I mean, it's just a lot of work to even figure it out. We just had the Fiddler's AI CEO on who worked out all the hyperscalers, say Facebook tend to, you know, real, you know, super alpha geek, if you will. And he was saying, and we were talking about open source, free software, integrations are a big part of where cloud scale, and the value is being captured for companies and people who are doing projects. Integrating some managed services, so this is where I see you, guys, going right now with Teradata, having all these cloud services built on the install base. >> Right. Which is not, doesn't hurt that at all. It just only helps it as they would migrate to cloud, its integrations, so you take a little bit of Amazon here, a little bit of Teradata there. >> Regina: Absolutely. >> What's your perspective, what's your reaction to that? >> So, I agree. And we think that's part of our secret sauce. You know, what we want to have is a data analytics platform in the cloud that allows data scientists, and architects, etc., to bring their own tools. So whatever they're utilizing today, we want them to be able to utilize it in vantage, and make sure that, A, can drive some efficiencies, and also, some better, smarter economics, as it relates to their particular projects. And so I agree with you 100% , and would tell you that we view that as somewhat our competitive advantage. It's not about being all proprietary. We want those integrations, and we've got dozens of them with AWS, and- >> Can you give example, can you give a couple examples of some integrations that highlight that? >> Sure, so right now we've got an integration with SageMaker today that allows our customers or data scientists to come in, prepare the data, and actually leverage SageMaker to build and train the models, and then deploy very quickly and easily without having to do all the data movement within their architecture. >> It's just so fascinating. I can't wait to have more conversation with you guys about this because I just think the world's spinning in a direction where, with low code, no code, >> Regina: Yup. >> you can see code, companion whisperer, that they have CodeWhisperer they launched today, they're writing subroutines for machine learning. And so it's not autocomplete, it's subroutine. So you're seeing all these advances on the technology. So it comes back to the building blocks, the integration. It just seems like going to be like a plug and play. That's old, were all, are old words. Mix and match, plug and play, interoperability, were old words, like, in the old days. Now they're becoming more relevant. What's your take on all that? >> Yeah, I would agree. I don't think that we should be competing against the algorithms, and neither do we. We want to just actually build out the toolsets that drive the enablement based on what a customer's requirements and needs are, and based on what the investments that they've already made within their own enterprises. >> You know, what's interesting about this event, I love to get your reaction to what re:MARS means to you because it's machine learning, automation, robotics, and space. Not your typical tech conference. >> Regina: No. >> Okay, little bit of a mixed bag there, so to speak. I love it. I think it's like super alpha geek, very nerdy, super nerds are here. And the topics kind of reflect the future. For the people that are watching that aren't here, what's your vibe on the show? What's your takeaway? How would you explain what's going on here from a market perspective, from a vibe perspective, what's happening? >> This is my first re:MARS actually, and I would have to tell you that I feel like it just, general observation, a few things, one, the conversations are more meaningful and we're getting into the meat of what a data scientist truly needs in order to be successful in their role and help drive their enterprise. That's number one. So I think, to your point, we're all kind of geeking out together here. The other thing that I think is pretty exciting is the amount of use cases, and ways in which we are driving impact. AWS and Teradata driving impact for the business analysts in the enterprise environment, but also for the people, their customers. That's pretty exciting to see. >> You know, it's interesting. When I first, was kind of like thinking about the show and what I was going to expect, it kind of overexceeded my expectations in the sense of what I was thinking about IOT, industrial, and digital innovation. 'Cause that's going to scale. I think now we're at a tipping point with machine learning that the industrial, IOT markets is going to explode 'cause machine learning's ready. But there was a whole positive, save the earth angle >> Regina: Yes. >> that caught my attention. >> Regina: Yes. You know, the discoveries from space are going to potentially have impact for the good, not just a cliche some sustainability messaging. It was actually real. >> Right, I think that that's exciting in an area in which we're excited to explore. We're doing a lot of work behind the scenes around sustainability and ESG initiatives for our customers, but also for the greater good. It's about driving outcomes for the greater good and being responsible with how we approach that. You know, the other thing I noticed too from a robotics standpoint, given I live in California, is a huge robotics culture there, you know. It's like bigger than football and baseball, and some sports. They provide A and B team and people get cut from the B team. There's so much demand to be on the robotics team. It's not a club, it's a team. >> Regina: Right. And so, you look at what's going on robotics, it's so exciting in the sense that if you're young and you're into tech, this is like- >> Regina: This is the place to be. >> I mean, why wouldn't you be hanging out here? >> Yeah, well, and I visited the booth over at University of Michigan, and how they're driving robotics to help support the human body to go further distances, and to drive better performance and health for individuals, and was really impressed with the work that they're doing, and even saw a use case and a need where I thought, you know, I have a quadriplegic sister-in-law, who I thought, "Wow, someday, maybe she'll be upright and walking again." >> John: Yeah. >> And those were exciting conversations to have while I was here. >> The advances on the material management robots I think is fascinating to see that growth. Well, let's get back to Teradata real quick to kind of close out future of what's next. Obviously, a lot of migration to the cloud happening. What's the outlook on the landscape and where do you see it evolving? Because you're seeing what the hyperscalers are doing, the cloud service providers, they're providing the CapEx. In fact, we coined the term supercloud, last re:Invent, that's become a thing. And Charles Fitzgerald would think it's not a thing, he debates us online all the time on Twitter. But it's, you can build on top of a CapEx. >> Regina: Yup. >> They did all the heavy lifting. You know, Snowflake, Databricks, the list goes on and on. So building on top of that to build proprietary advantages or even just sustainable advantages is now easier to do. So superclouds are kind of in play. So that means whoever's got the playbook can win. So you guys seem to be executing that playbook of having the installed base, and then working with AWS >> Regina: Yes. >> to ride that wave. Tell us about the migration strategies you're seeing, and what are your customers doing specifically, and take us through a customer that's leaning into the cloud and driving. >> So when I think about specific customers that are leaning in, you know, the first and most important thing that we're hearing is, you've got to be able to scale. I've got 1,000 nodes or 100 nodes, or whatnot. And so we're addressing that because we think that there's a place for hybrid cloud. We think everyone's moving and rushing towards the cloud, but even one of our competitors last week announced that there's a place for on-prem, and we would agree. >> John: Yeah. >> So that is something that we're really focused on, and you take, for example, the automotive industry. We're seeing a lot of work being done together with our joint customers, AWS and Teradata, and some of these auto manufacturers who are experiencing supply chain issues and challenges today, and also need to drive better quality control measures within their own lines, in the manufacturing lines. And so we're working together with them to look at what type of machine learning and AI can we be leveraging together as part of the overall solution to drive those analytics, and make sure that they have better quality control >> You know, that's really good insight about the on-premise thing. And I think that supports what we're seeing around hybrid. We see hybrid as a steady state going forward, period. >> Regina: Yeah. >> And that will evolve into multi thing. Multi-cloud, you want to call it, or superclouds, and more things. Basically, distributed computing. So if you look at the edge here, the edge is just on-premise. What is the premise? It's an edge or big device, small device, data center is a large edge. >> Regina: Right. >> And so if you're using cloud hybrid, the distinction kind of goes away. And I think this is where we'll going to see the winners emerge in data. Because remember, you go back to 2010, Hadoop was the big thing, big data. And that kind of crashed and burned. And then now you're seeing Databricks picking up a lot of that. Snowflake, you guys are there. And so it's still going on, this transformation in data. >> Regina: It is. And I think hybrid's a huge deal. What are customers saying around that? Because I think they're just trying to figure out cloud scale. >> I think they're trying to figure out cloud scale, I think they're also trying to figure out security. And so, you know, when we're talking to our customers, that absolutely is critical. And I would also suggest that the customer base is really looking for, "Hey, don't just help me migrate, I really need to modernize." And so driving the right use cases for the customer is important. >> You know, another thing that you, guys, have a lot of core expertise in is governance. And we've seen how that has played in all the compliance, and all these conversations are kind of converging. Do you have closed, do you have open? Machine learning needs more data, dow do you protect it? So that set a hot area that I see as well. And that's something that's emerging, 'cause cyber's also involved too, like, you have cyber security threats on code, so I'm curious to see how that turns out. What's your perspective on, what's Teradata's perspective on the security, open, closed perspective? Any- >> It's a priority for, security is a priority for us. And I don't think that we've officially made that determination yet, right? We're still exploring, and we're going to do whatever our customers require of us. In terms of an open, closed perspective, I think we want to be flexible. Again, like I said before, it's about being open and supportive of whatever the customer requirement is especially across the different industries. >> Well, Regina, great to have you on theCUBE. Thanks for coming. I really appreciate it. Great insight, great to catch up on Teradata, cloud play. Very strong move. I think it's a good one. Final question I want to ask you though, is a little bit more about the personnel in the industry, like, obviously, if you're young, you're seeing all this space here, machine learning's not obvious. I know schools now are training it, but you start to see new personas come into the workforce. Where are the gaps? I mean, obviously, we have a lot of new opportunities, like, cybersecurity has a lot of job openings. Is there any observations that you have around or advice to younger folks coming in, from a career standpoint? Because a lot of job openings are skills that weren't even taught in school. >> Regina: Right, that's- >> You know. >> And then you got the women in check, and you have all kinds of opportunities now that aren't just engineering, right? >> Regina: Yes. >> It's not just engineering. It's computer science, so there's a whole in-migration of new talent coming in the industry. >> Yes, I think maintaining a curious mind is really critical, and taking time to invest in learning. You know, there are so many resources available to us at our disposal that that don't cost us a dime. And so my advice to anybody who is curious, remain curious, dig in, and get some experience, and don't be afraid to stick your neck out, and try it. >> Well, in this conference we have robots welcome, you know, in this out there. >> Yeah. (laughs) >> Regina, thanks for coming out here. Really appreciate it >> John, thank you, it's a pleasure. >> CUBE coverage here in Las Vegas for Amazon re:MARS. I'm John Furrier, your host. Stay with more live coverage after this short break. (upbeat bright music)

(upbeat music) >> When I was a young analyst at IDC I remember sitting in a packed boardroom, listening to this new company called Teradata introduce a machine, that was specially designed to make databases run much faster at far less cost. At the time, the most advanced disc drive in the world was 2.5 gigabytes and it costs more than a $100,000. It was the size of a giant refrigerator. There was not a single data center in the US that housed the terabyte of data, underscoring this young startups, Moxie, with a name like Teradata. Fast forward nearly 40 years and the company is still going strong. It has a robust tech stack that has been matured and hardened over the decade, over the decades with capabilities around things like referential integrity, sophisticated workload management and support for complex joins, and many other factors. Recently, the company's financial performance has been in the news, with an earnings and revenue beat, in a large part attributed to its cloud business model. The stock roughly doubled in a few days as surprised investors took notice. Welcome to this CUBE Conversation, my name is Dave Vellante, and we're here with Steve McMillan, who's the CEO of Teradata, to give us the updates, Steve welcome. >> Hey Dave, it's great to be here, thanks for having me. >> Okay, so you're very welcome. So what's happening with Teradata? What's behind the recent surprise and the momentum that you're seeing? >> Look, Dave, I think over the last 12 to 18 months, we've just been continuously improving our cloud capabilities and the performance of our cloud business. I took over as CEO of Teradata in June of last year, and it's been my pleasure to really focus the company on a cloud-first agenda. And what that's really mean is that, we've built a great leadership team with some key new appointments, a new chief product officer, a new chief strategy officer, and most recently our new chief revenue officer, to really build up our cloud credentials and capability. We've also done things like completely invert our R&D spend. So we spend nearly $300 billion on research and development every year, but previously our focus have been only 30% of our spend was in cloud, we'll flipped that around to have 70% of our investment in cloud, and 30% on-prem, enabling us to do things like go general availability of Teradata in Google Cloud in Q3 of last year. And roles of these investments in moving that investment envelope has really enabled us to put forward Teradata as a very relevant modern cloud platform for our customers. And that's enabled us to win in the cloud fairly significantly. And we always knew that at some point, we would declare to the street what cloud revenues were, but we wanted to make sure that they were a substantial and relevant, and we felt that at over $100 million dollars of ARR and with an outlook to double that this year, that those were the kind of metrics that were going to get the market and our customers' attention in terms of us being modern and relevant. >> I got a lot of questions based on that. Thank you for that upfront. But so let me ask you, so you took over as CEO less than 90 days into a global pandemic. And so, how much did that affect your thinking around cloud-first? Did you come in, before that knowing this was the direction you're going to take the company, was that accelerated, can you comment? >> Look, I think, taking over at Teradata, you pointed out in the introduction, a 40-year heritage event at essentially inventing the enterprise data warehouse marketplace. I knew I was taking over a company with a fantastic heritage and a fantastic culture, a set of people that are absolutely focused on and are incredibly proud of Teradata's technology it's capability and how Teradata helps transform how businesses work and people lives through data. What I saw is, we had to really focus on what the market and our customers were looking for, and that meant we emphasizing the importance of cloud and saved the company. So it was really a lot about focus, and then about developing the culture of the company to be able to execute. In terms of the pandemic, I think the pandemic has act as an accelerant to digital transformation, as organizations want to use data to help optimize how they operate, makes sure they're operating effectively and efficiently. One of the customer examples that we had in our last quarter, was an airline in the US investing in Teradata technology to do just that, as clearly a distressed industry, but they see how the power of data can optimize their supply chain to enable them to work more effectively and more efficiently. >> Great, I want to get into some of those customer examples, but I want to stick on cloud-first for a minute. So it sounds like cloud-first is a mindset but then leads to sort of investment priorities. And there are some pretty prominent companies that had a switch from a sort of on-prem to a cloud-first mentality, Microsoft is the most obvious, but there are others. But what really does cloud-first mean for your customers? >> Well, what it means is, we really think about the future digital strategy of our customers, and clearly all of our customers want to embrace cloud. It's also about data gravity, where is data moving to? And we see the data gravity of many companies, we focus on the top 10,000 companies in the world where they're operating at that level of scale, Teradata can really give them the right kind of solution that meets their business requirements. But as that data gravity is moving towards the cloud, it really means that we have to be in front of that, and we have to have the technology in place to capture that data as it moves to the cloud. And so the vision from a product perspective in terms of cloud-first, is to be the leader from a connected multi-cloud data platform perspective. And I that each component of that product description is really important, connected in terms of being able to access data either in native object store or in loads of different data sources, multi cloud in terms of being available across all of the cloud platforms, but for our existing customers extending and reaching into their on-prem capabilities, and from a data platform, thinking about it in terms of the services that Teradata has been known for, in terms of enterprise data warehousing but also real data analytics capabilities that we built into our core SQL engine. So super excited about the future of Teradata in this cloud first world. >> Yes, the definition of cloud, by the way of course it is evolving as we all know. And I spent a fair amount of my time trying to squint through earnings statements, and figure out okay, what's exactly in there? So, $100 million in ARRs, that's that's a pretty big number. I mean, for a lot of companies, that's like they're getting ready for an IPO if they're doing that kind of ARR. So what is in that cloud number? I presume there's a hybrid, a component of that, but can you help us understand what's that definition? >> Yeah, we were very careful with that because we wanted to be assured that we're talking to you all about cloud and being true cloud. So that is just revenues of our vantage product running in AWS or Azure or Google Cloud. It doesn't include any private cloud or hybrid cloud environment. So we wanted to be really specific about, that's a success and the hyper scaler environment and the public cloud environment. Thanks for asking that question, that's great. >> Thank you for the answer, and that's really important. There's just so much cloud washing going on, and so it's good to hear that you're making that clean, what you call the true cloud number, I would agree. That's a great way to look at it. And of course, there's a lot of evolution going on in cloud and on-prem, and from a hybrid standpoint out to the edge, so is your cloud strategy to be compatible with the cloud native AWS, Azure, Google maybe Alibaba someday. But is your strategy also to try to cross connect those clouds in some way which is a kind of metadata challenge. Maybe you could talk about that. >> Yeah, that's exactly that when I use the term, connected multi-cloud data platform, that's exactly the point. We see companies want to have a data fabric that spans across, either from on-premise and from on-prem, but they want to span across those public cloud environments. Our perspective as the companies seem to crave, how to use compute transparently across multi-cloud environments, our perspective is, we want to give that same ability to essentially federate data across a multi-cloud environment. Because the CIO is, I talked to the too, and I'm sure you do too, Dave, they want optionality in terms of cloud provider. They don't want to be locked in to an AWS or an Azure or Google, they want to be able to keep a competitive environment, competitive sourcing environment, be able to use the right services from the right cloud provider. So from a Teradata perspective, one of the other key things about our cloud focus is, we're starting to think about Teradata vantage as much more of a platform rather than a product. And so, you know, we've got 17 integrations in the product to native cloud services and Amazon alone, about 13 in Azure and 12 in Google Cloud, where we utilize and enable our customers to use those native cloud services, in the way that their dev ops teams have become very accustomed to. And I think that level of integration that our R&D spend has enabled recently, has really positioned then our customers minds the ability for Teradata to be modern in terms of that dev ops, and for Teradata to be at the core of their data architecture. And then from a pervade and a fabric perspective, we've really invested in what we called our query grid technology to really be able to federate queries out across multiple cloud environments. And we've put a commercial model in place that we charge per query. So we don't charge per megabyte of storage, that we charge for successful query execution. And our thesis says, if we open the Teradata platform to as many data sources as possible, our customers are going to want to query that data, connect it together, and get unique valuable insights that they can't get anywhere else other than using a solution like Teradata. So we were super excited about that. >> I'm excited too, that it's kind of the Holy grail, because the other thing CIO is telling me Steve is like, look, we've spent a decade in our developers, they got the cloud native thing. They know how to optimize for AWS or Google or Azure, we got that. What we need, is we need to enable the businesses, so if you can abstract away that complexity, that's innovation that they want, 'cause they want to go faster. And this notion of a federated query, I think what I'm hearing is, you're building out the knowledge to wherever the query should be serviced, whether it's remote, or local, on AWS or Azure or Google, or on-prem, you're going to be able to service that query in the most efficient manner. Is that's kind of the vision here? >> That's the vision, that's exactly it. It is a connected, we enable a connected data fabric, a multi-cloud for our biggest customers who are always going to have an on-prem capability. They can reach back into their on-prem system from the data, the storage on-prem, in terms of the data that travels across for that is only though for the query. So you don't need to duplicate queries, you don't need to duplicate data in lots of different places. But not only that, to your point, that this is all about business outcome and use cases. And the 40 years of experience that Teradata has, in terms of helping customers know how to use data to solve business problems, they get that in the cloud with the Teradata that they know, and so that whole, if they want to migrate from on-prem to in the cloud, if they wanted federate, we can give that range of options, layer on top our industry and use case experience to deliver a fantastic overall cloud migration experience to our customer set. >> I like the pricing model too, because essentially, you're charging for value. I mean, I think you look, we've gone through decades and for the past decade, a lot of SAS companies have done really well but it's kind of a one-way street. And the charge per query really is a sort of, to me anyway, a gain share, the customers win, you win, as long as you deliver a good product, they'll stay loyal to you. >> That's right. I think our customers are saying that pricing model relates directly to business value. And the total cost of ownership of the Teradata technology, is as much more efficient and effective, it gives a much better TCO, especially with enterprise skill, either data volumes, data complexity or query complexity or query concurrency. And there's entrust, and I'll reflect back to your opening remarks, right? And not very many people use this. We were born on-prem, but what we're finding in the cloud is that it's given us a better advantage, because we are used to squeezing every bit of performance out of the storage and compute and the Teradata system. So, and our poor SQL engine or workload management and query optimization means that we don't run away with the consumption of compute and storage. What we find from a native cloud pervade that are solutions as to solve these really enterprise skill challenges, they spin up more compute or spin up more storage. And it's an exponential increase in terms of the total cost of ownership, whereas we believe we give a much more predictable cost profile and performance profile, utilizing the technologies that we honed on-prem. >> Yeah, that's an important point. I mean, Teradata is by design, it's architected to be a perfectly tuned system. I mean, and so back in the day, where it was $100, 000 for 2.5 gigabytes, you had better architected it that way. And so the prevailing way to solve these problems today, there's not a lot of ways to skin a cat, but just throwing resources at it as it is the only way. And that as you pointed out, can get a little bit out of control, it makes the CFO's nervous. On the earnings score, you referenced two customer situations where you beat out snowflake for the deal. I wonder if you could add some color and elaborate on that. >> Yeah, we've been working with a number of customers that kind of kicked the tires on cloud native solutions, and we're delighted to see some of them coming by, recommitted to Teradata. And I think there's really a couple of reasons for that. One is the challenge of migration. I guess I think snowflake mentioned that in the earnings call yesterday about the challenge of migrating enterprise workload, from a Teradata perspective, because what you get in the cloud is exactly the same as what you've got on-prem. We can lift and shift, and then we can look to modernize once it's in the cloud. So it's dramatically different approach. So there's no interruption to the business users, so it's less risk, less costs, quicker time to value from a migration perspective. So one of those wins with an e-commerce company in the US, was because the new CTO came in and said, "Those 70 engineers, they'd been working on for the last 12 months." And it was about to try and migrate Teradata workload to a cloud native solution. And he said, "Why don't we just use Teradata in the cloud?" Which was a logical question and we were delighted to help them with that answer. And then the other example really was about, the projected cost of running in the cloud, and how expensive it was going to be once that organization had scaled up to the level of queries and execution that their enterprise was going to be generating, and also from the growth trajectory that they were anticipating, just from a tool cost of ownership perspective Teradata made a lot of sense. And that probably would surprise quite a lot of people over there who have always considered Teradata as being reassuringly expensive. But what we're really demonstrating now is when we think about it in terms of query execution and as customers try alternative solutions to execute the kind of queries the enterprise skill that Teradata does every day, we are actually a really good price performance player. >> Yeah, I don't think anybody would ever question your database chops. I mean, I think people were trying to understand it and I my myself was trying to understand, okay, what happens to the on-prem business? And you're sort of connected the dots there for me. So my question is, what are your on-prem customers? What's their motivation for moving to the cloud? Are they actually leaning in, or are they kind of many of them putting a brick wall around their on-prem, and sort of carving out a cloud agenda? How do you see that evolving? >> Look, I think, and I'm talking about existing customers rather than winning new customers here. But our existing customers are going to continue growing their on-prem environments. You know, if you look at the market analysis it says, between one and 4% growth per annum for the existing on-prem traditional technologies. So, and we expect Teradata to more than gain our share in terms of that one to 4% market share grows every year, but really the growth, the 30% plus growth, in terms of year on year data growth in the cloud, is really driven by that DevOps approach, one to utilize first party cloud services to augment the technology development that's going on inside organizations, also as data starts moving into a SaaS environments, being able to do the analytics of that data that's already in a cloud environment and a cloud environment starts to make a lot of sense. So we are investing in connectors to the sales force, the service now, so that you can have access to that data from Teradata. So we think that hybrid approach, in many of the biggest companies in the world is going to continue to make a lot of sense, but the big growth, and I think is going to be in those cloud environments. >> So as I model, my mental model around Teradata is really holding serve and that on-prem business, low single digit growth, keep that stable, and then you're growing very very rapidly in the ARR model, the cloud business. And then at some point you've got, let's Teradata, 1.8 billion in revenue, somewhere around there. So you've got ways to go before that cloud business is as large as the on-prem business, obviously, but that's the opportunity. And we've seen a number of companies transition through that very successfully. You're obviously communicating to the street, they liked the story. This seems to be some upside people are, you know, the investors are saying, "Well this is an undervalued company you don't have- >> Yeah, no, absolutely. And I would say is, we look at our current ARR, we know that we're going to have a stable base of on-prem ARR for the foreseeable future. But, the ability to migrate some of that ARR to cloud is low hanging fruit in terms of growing our cloudy ARR. But then what we've seen is, once we migrate an on-prem customer to the cloud, it kind of unlocks the Teradata environment for that customer, because, remember we usually run all of the mission critical production workloads, and so that system is like tied tightly down, you don't, if you're the CFO, you don't want the marketing team like disrupting your month end running. But when you're in the cloud, to run those ad hoc queries or ad hoc analytics capabilities, then we can spin up and we can elastically grow more compute, more storage, so that workload can be satisfied, both still predicting those mission critical workloads and the core SQL engine. And so we're seeing the expansion once we move some of those workloads to the cloud and some of those customers to the cloud as being really, really significant. So expanding the ARR that the did have on-prem, when it lands in the cloud, as we've seen more than 50% expansion rates. >> I mean, I see the future. You used the term, I think data fabric, I see the future is data warehouse, data warehouse, data lake or whatever repository you want. Those are just nodes in my mind within that fabric. And you mentioned marketing, if I'm in the marketing department, I want my own data. I have the context, I know what I need, I don't want to be subservient to some complex data pipeline and data scientists to get permission. I just want to... I want to go for it and create data products. And so, my last question is sort of, there's my sort of simple vision. How do you see the future? >> Look, I think I'll give an example of telcos who are increasingly trying to move to be techcos. And how orchestration of data across multiple silos in an enterprise can create significant enterprise value. So if you imagine the IOT use case 5G deployment strategy, you've got all of these 4G handsets, so you just know, telco is wanting to know where all of that usage data is, so that they can mane that usage data into customer usage patterns to then influence their capital allocation strategy as they build out 5G networks. So it takes data from the consumer level and puts it into a corporate planning process, on the really backend of the company. And so we believe with our connected multi-cloud data platform and our outstanding and data warehousing analytics, we can get those kind of most complex use cases, the lever to our customers really successfully. >> Hey Steve, great story, it's clear to me you've got your priorities straight. So thanks so much for coming on theCUBE and sharing your story there. >> Dave, it's been an absolute pleasure, I hope to do it again. >> All right, you got it. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >> Hi, welcome to the Q virtual. You're watching our coverage or AWS free event 2020. We are the Q virtual and let me hope you in skevent . I'm joined with Steve Mcmilla CEO, president of teradata Stephen, welcome to the show. >> Hey Keith, great to be here today. Glad to be joining you. So teradata, this is a big, exciting market analytics in the public cloud, but let's start with a little history. I remember teradata as being the thing that I do as a data says that my big data on premises and asking questions of teradata, how's the public cloud changed teradata's business. >> I think Teradata has got a fantastic heritage. We've, you know, being in the cloud, the data analytics business for over 40 years. So in fact, you could say that teradata invented data analytics. The cloud for us` is just a really exciting opportunity. It gives our customers another deployment option, and we are looking at how we can take our capabilities from on-prem and extend those into the cloud. And that's really what a lot of teradata's existing customers are looking for. But we also see tremendous opportunity as customers are responding to their market and their environments. They want to use the cloud as a platform, an agile platform, and we're finding that they can see the benefits of using teradata in terms of performance in scale and given a level of insight and to the data that they've got in the cloud, that other platforms can't touch. >> So we're talking about real time, current issues that's going on in customer environments. Talk to me about the teradata top de sure the pandemic. How's the pandemic impacting your customer environments or working the need for this type of analytics capabilities? >> I think the pandemic has just been an accelerant for a lot of transformation for companies. And you know, that the situation with COVID-19 globally has really resulted in a need for companies to be able to respond very harshly, to an uncertain environment. And an environment is changing all of the time. You know, AWS as a cloud provider can provide that level of agility. What teredata does set it on top of AWS has provided a level of business insight that enables companies to use their data, to dynamically respond to the situations that are in front of them today, even as that changes day by day or hour by hour or minute to minute. >> So I've talked to a lot of customer who have looked at the public cloud as a way to respond, celebrate their businesses in the era of the pandemic. But let's talk about long term vision. How are customers going to use teradata moving forward in a post pandemic. >> Okay I think that just from a data strategy perspective, cloud is one aspect of it. Really what our customers want to get from the data, Is real insights, that help them transform how their businesses work, especially in these changing times. So businesses we find are overwhelmed by the amount of data that they've got. There's never a day in the world where there's less data than there was the day before and coping with that explosion of data, getting real insights so they can work what they going to do that is we believe forms the basis of a long term data strategy. >> So help me paint a picture for customers as they look at their multi-cloud or hybrid cloud environments, which you know, I have my systems of record on premises feel, I have my next generation customer facing complications, Back far diverse is transactional. customer experience data. How does Teradata help bridge those worlds? >> That's where I think Teradata is uniquely placed. You know we bring that 40 years of heritage and investment and data analytics and we help our customers take that end to the cloud. We see most of our customers now have a cloud strategy. I was reading an industry report the other day that said that, on average organizations will have seven clouds that they have to deal with. Many customers are deploying on AWS because they see it as a great cloud platform where they can extend their on-prem data capabilities into the cloud use the facilities and features of AWS convened web teradata to really transform the data fabric and the analytics capabilities of their organization. So it's really that combination, that is provide some unique opportunities for our customers. And again, like using teradata in AWS quote, probates, unprecedented a scale, a scale that we've been able to develop in our technology over the last few decades. And we take that know-how and deploy it in the Amazon cloud so that customers have a great degree of control. They can optimize how their queries run inside the environment. They can get degrees of cost certainty that they don't otherwise have they can govern their data and ways that gives them complete control and security over the analytics, the insights that they make available so that they can really change how their companies operate. >> So obviously you run a sizable business, a mature business, that's finding this incredible growth mechanism, but at the end of the day, when your employees come to you with a new idea, you want to know what's the return on investment, you know money, isn't free resources, aren't free. You have limited staff just like everyone else. Talk to me about the return on investment from teradata. >> So I think teradata really offers the ability to get that cost per query and the sweet spot for our customers. So we've done a number of things we've made a cost calculator available on our website so that our, our customers can look at and compare how much it costs to run and say a data environment or an, an AWS quote, and how that compares to all of the other options that may be available to them. And what we see is often an order of magnitude difference in terms of the cost profile for running teradata and getting true business level insights from the data that they have compared to some of the competitive solutions out there. And that might really surprise some of your viewers said, Keith, in terms of that, that's not usually what you'd associate teradata West, or you associate teradata as, an absolutely robust system that's completely meshing critical. But David, we get those features and a really controlled environment, where the cost per query is optimized. we've got consumption-based pricing models that enables that return and investment curve that you're talking about to be either really early on in their process or using our technologies. >> So I've been part of these big, massive projects within enterprises, where we look at these, whether it's data leakes, unstructured data etc. We want to to next big questions of them. The big problem with that has always been cost or runs these projects always, always in my experience go over budget. How does the combination of AWS, which has the potential to have only limited budget and teradata, which falls basically unlimited budget issue or dresses, unlimited budget problem, how do you help control that risk and avoid cost? >> Yeah, so you know working in an environment like AWS, which is completely elastic can really does give tremendous value to our conveying customer set. But as you said, that elasticity comes at a cost. So in order to make sure that our customers run, the most important queries that they get the most value from, we utilize technologies that we've taken from our own prem deployments, things like query optimization and workload management, and that lets us give our customers a degree of control, and that environment that they wouldn't otherwise have. So we're really excited about the future of teradata and the AWS cloud. >> Now we spent a lot of time talking about the AWS cloud, but a lot of customers simply aren't there. A lot of them are just react to the pandemic, as a need for today. Do I have to be all in and AWS and public cloud in general to take advantage of all of these advantages of all of these capabilities? >> What we are, what we want to do from a teradata vantage perspective is really promote it as a platform and a platform that can be used across all of the cloud environments, and into the on-prem environment. If you have teradata vantage deployed in your on-prem So we're all about opening up choice and flexibility. You know, the teradata technology really enables our customers, not just to have a data Mart view of things where, you know, you're, no simple queries on, you know, the rear view mirror of what happened, but the analytics technology lets you get into questions like, well, why did that event happen? What's going to happen next? And what should we do to proactively plan that, you know we see use cases like the internet of things, where, there's a preventative and predictive maintenance on laws that the bases over there, and you can imagine the amount and volume of data that's getting consumed. And we analyze that data real time, get real answeres to make recommendations, to really enable an organization that's servicing these machines the the right level of end state to optimize how they're working on a day-to-day business. is really exciting. >> So again, we're now shipping the conversation back over to public health in consumption. How do I consume Cherokee advantage in AWS? >> We've got a number of different deployment models in terms of consuming teradata vantage , so you can have a pay as you go model, which means, you can start at nothing and work out overtaking or consumption model is really unique because we actually, we Bel on the basis of what we call logical IO, which means that it's only been queries work, inside the environment that our customer gets billed for it. So you don't just get charged by walking into the room and having the light switch on you only get charged when that late is doing something meaningful, for you and your organization, and actually result in an end state for use the company also the blended priests and models. So you can work out what the optimum deployment model as for teradata vantage and save quote. So loss of choice, we're all about giving that flexibility and choice in terms of how we operate. >> So you hit on the topic of IOT, but let's hit that dead on and talk about another hot part of not just the it conversation, but the cloud conversation and especially data analytics, the edge how does a solution like vantage play with datasets, that live at the edge and have to be carried at the edge? >> You know, one of the great things of a teradata vantage and how we're looking at it just now, If we think about, or you may recall as teradata, the desire was to try and get everything into a teradata and have all the data captured and say that ecosystem, that doesn't work as well in the cloud world. What we're all about is opening up that platform. So some of your viewers might be surprised. We now integrate with, 18 of AWS services to really start opening the platform up. We give access to from teradata and to native object stores and cloud environments so that, customers don't have to duplicate data. They don't have to copy it into teradata, and have that data locked in there. We can access a whole plethora of data capture mechanisms that the cloud providers AWS make available, in terms of those APO eyes and those calls. so that we can integrate it all together, and get the best possible set of data sources, for teradata VANTAGE to work on. So really exciting team in terms of opening up that platform being really modern in terms of looking at the data fabric, that our customers have and how they're using these cloud services on a day-to-day basis. And integrating that with the power advantage. >> Steve McMillan, president CEO of teradata. We really appreciate it. 40 years of analytics history. We're seeing the movement in public cloud where we're going from these companies that we put our, all our data into centralized, adapting to the reality of edge data center, public cloud, meeting us where the data's at. We're super excited to now promote you into an alum of the queue, make sure to join us for additional coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 on ducky. (upbeat music)

(electronic pop music) >> Hi, I'm Peter Burris. Welcome to a Wikibon Action Item Quick Take. This week, Teradata announced some earnings and some changes. Neil Raden, what happened? >> A couple of years ago, and don't hold my feet to the fire, but most people considered Teradata dying out, a company with great technology that just wasn't current with where things were going. They saw that, too, and they've done a tremendous job at reinventing themselves. The numbers were evident in their 4th quarter and full fiscal year numbers. They weren't spectacular, but they did beat everybody's estimate, which is a good thing. They also showed something like $250 million in subscription income, which was probably zero a year and a half ago. So that's a good thing. I think it's showing that they're making progress. They're not out of the woods yet, obviously, but I think that the program is a good program and the numbers are showing it. The other thing that I really, really like is that they elevated Oliver Ratzesberger to COO. So he's now basically in charge of pretty much everything, right? (laughs) He's going to take charge of the entire organization's sales, and marketing, and service, and so forth. He was in charge of product before this. Really, good things have happened in terms of their technology with Oliver. I've known Oliver for a while, and he's been with eBay, did a great job there. I think he's going to stick around. Sales, products, services, and marketing under one team, that's a pretty tall order. But I think he's up to it, and I'm looking forward to the 2018 year and seeing how well they do. >> Excellent, Neil. So, Teradata transitioning and finding people that can make it happen. This has been a Wikibon Action Item Quick Take. (electronic pop music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Jose in the heart of Silicon Valley, It's theCUBE covering DataWorks Summit 2017. Brought to you by Hortonworks. >> Welcome back to theCUBE. We are live at the DataWorks Summit on day two. We have had a great day and a half learning a lot about the next generation of big data, machine learning, artificial intelligence, I'm Lisa Martin, and my co-host is George Gilbert. We are next joined by a CUBE alumni, Ron Bodkin, the VP and General Manager of Artificial Intelligence for Teradata. Welcome back to theCUBE! >> Well thank you Lisa, it's nice to be here. >> Yeah, so talk to us about what you're doing right now. Your keynote is tomorrow. >> Ron: Yeah. >> What are you doing, what is Teradata doing in helping customers to be able to leverage artificial intelligence? >> Sure, yeah so as you may know, I ha`ve been involved in this conference and the big data space for a long time as the founding CEO of Think Big Analytics. We were involved in really helping customers in the beginning of big data in the enterprise. And so, we are seeing a very similar trend in the space of artificial intelligence, right? The rapid advances in recent years in deep learning have opened up a lot of opportunity to really create value from all the data the customers have in their data ecosystems, right? So Teradata has a big role to play in having high quality product, Teradata database, analytic ecosystem products such as Hadoop, such as QueryGrid for connecting these systems together, right? So what we're seeing is our customers are very excited by artificial intelligence, but what we're really focused on is how do they get to the value, right? What can they do that's really going to get results, right? And we bring this perspective of having this strong solutions approach inside of Teradata, and so we have Think Big Analytics consulting for data science, we now have been building up experts in deep learning in that organization, working with customers, right? We've brought product functionality so we're innovating around how do we keep pushing the Teradata product family forward with functionality around streaming with listeners. Functionality like the ability to, how do you take GPU and start to think about how can we add that and make that deploy efficiently inside our customer's data center. How can you take advantage of innovation in open source with projects like TensorFlow and Keras becoming important for our customers. So we're seeing is a lot of customers are excited about use cases for artificial intelligence. And tomorrow in the keynote I'm going to touch on a few of them, ranging from applications like preventative maintenance, anti-fraud in banking, to e-commerce recommendations and we're seeing those are some of the examples of use cases where customers are saying hey, there's a lot of value in combining traditional machine learning, wide learning, with deep learning using neural nets to generalize. >> Help us understand if there's an arc where there's the mix of what's repeatable and what's packagable, or what's custom, how that changes over time, or whether it's just by solution. >> Yeah, it's a great question. Right, I mean I think there's a lot of infrastructure that any of these systems need to rest on. So having data infrastructure, having quality data that you can rely on is foundational, and so you need to get that installed and working well as a beginning point. Obviously having repeatable products that manage data with high SLAs and supporting not use production use, but also how do you let data scientists analyze data in a lab and make that work well. So there's that foundational data layer. Then there's the whole integration of the data science into applications, which is critical, analytics, ops, agile ways of making it possible to take the data and build repeatable processes, and those are very horizontal, right? There's some variation, but those work the same in a lot of use cases. At this stage, I'd say, in deep learning, just like in machine learning generally, you still have a lot of horizontal infrastructure. You've got Spark, you've got TensorFlow, those are support use case across many industries. But then you get to the next level, you get specific problems, and there's a lot of nuance. What modeling techniques are going to work, what data sets matter? Okay, you've got time series data and a problem like fraud. What techniques are going to make that work well? And recommendations, you may have a long tail of items to think about recommending. How do you generalize across the long tail where you can't learn. People who use some relatively small thing or go to an obscure website, or buy an obscure product, there's not enough data to say are they likely to buy something else or do something else, but how do you categorize them so you get statistical power to make useful recommendations, right? Those are things that are very specific that there's a lot of repeatability and a specific solution area of. >> This is, when you talk about the data assets that might be specific to a customer and then I guess some third party or syndicated sources. If you have an outcome in mind, but not every customer has the same inventory of data, so how do you square that circle? >> That's a great question. And I really think that's a lot of the opportunity in the enterprise of applying analytics, so this whole summit DataWorks is about hey, the power of your data. What you can get by collecting your data in a well-managed ecosystem and creating value. So, there's always a nuance. It's like what's happening in your customers, what's your business process, what's special about how you interact, what's the core of your business? So I guess my view is that the way anybody that wants to be a winner in this new digital era and have processes that take advantage of artificial intelligence is going to have to use data as a competitive advantage and build on their unique data. So because we see a lot of times enterprises struggle with this. There's a tendency to say hey, can we just buy a package off the shelf SaaS solution and do that? And for context, for things that are the same for everybody in an industry, that's a great choice. But if you're doing that for your core differentiation of your business, you're in deep trouble in this digital era. >> And that's a great place, sorry George, really quickly. That this day and age, every company is a technology company. You mentioned a use case in banking, fraud detection, which is huge. There's tremendous value that can be gleaned from artificial intelligence, and there's also tremendous risk to them. I'm curious, maybe just kind of a generalization. Where are your customers on this journey in terms of have they, are you going out to customers that have already embraced Hadoop and have a significant amount of data that they say, all right, we've got a lot of data here, we need to understand the context. Where are customers in that maturity evolution? >> Sure, so I'd say that we're really fast-approaching the slope of enlightenment for Hadoop, which is to say the enthusiasm of three years ago when people thought Hadoop was going to do everything have kind of waned and there's now more of an appreciation, like there's a lot of value in having a data warehouse for high value curated data for large-scale use. There's a lot of value in having a data lake of fairly raw data that can be used for exploration in the data science arena. So there's emerging, like what is the best architecture for streaming and how do you drive realtime decisions, and that's still very much up in the air. So I'd say that most of our customers are somewhere on that journey, I think that a lot of them have backed off from their initial ambitions that they bought a little too much of the hype of all that Hadoop might do and they're realizing what it is good for, and how they really need to build a complementary ecosystem. The other thing I think is exciting though is I see the conversation is moving from the technology to the use cases. People are a lot more excited about how can we drive value and analytics, and let's work backwards from the analytics value to the data that's going to support it. >> Absolutely. >> So building on that, we talk about sort of what's core and if you can't have something completely repeatable that's going to be core to your sustainable advantage, but if everyone is learning from data, how does a customer achieve a competitive advantage or even sustain a competitive advantage? Is it orchestrating learning that feeds, that informs processes all across the business, or is it just sort of a perpetual Red Queen effect? >> Well, that's a great question. I mean, I think there's a few things, right? There's operational excellence in every discipline, so having good data scientists, having the right data, collecting data, thinking about how do you get network effects, those are all elements. So I would say there's a table-stakes aspect that if you're not doing this, you're in trouble, but then if you are it's like how do you optimize and lift your game and get better at it? So that's an important fact that you see companies that say how do we acquire data? Like one of the things that you see digital disruptors, like a Tesla, doing is changing the game by saying we're changing the way we work with our customers to get access to the data. Think of the difference between every time you buy a Tesla you sign over the rights for them to collect and use all your data, when the traditional auto OEMs are struggling to get access to a lot of the data because they have intermediaries that control the relationship and aren't willing to share. And a similar thing in other industries, you see in consumer packaged goods. You see a lot of manufacturers there are saying how do we get partnerships, how do we get more accurate data? The old models of going out to the Nielsens of the world and saying give us aggregates, and we'll pay you a lot to give us a summary report, that's not working. How do we learn directly in a digital world about our consumers so we can be more relevant? So one of the things is definitely that control of data and access to data, as well as we see a lot of companies saying what are the acquisitions we can make? What are start ups and capabilities that we can plug in, and complement to get data, to get analytic capability that we can then tailor for our needs? >> It's funny that you mention Tesla having more cars on the road, collecting more data than pretty much anyone else at this point. But then there's like Stanford's sort of luminary for AI, Fei-Fei Li. She signed on I think with Toyota, because she said they sell 10 million cars a year, I'm going to be swimming in data compared to anyone else, possible exception of GM or maybe some Chinese manufacturer. So where does, how can you get around scale when using data at scale to inform your models? How would someone like a Tesla be able to get an end run around that? So that's the battle, the disruptor comes in, they're not at scale, but they maybe change the game in some way. Like having different terms that give them access to different kinds of data, more complete data. So that's sort of part of the answer, is to disrupt an industry you need a strategy what's different, right, like in Tesla's case an electric vehicle. And they've been investing in autonomous vehicles with AI, of course everybody in the industry is seeing that and is racing. I mean, Google really started that whole wave going a long time ago as another potential disruptor coming in with their own unique data asset. So, I think it's all about the combination of capabilities that you need. Disruptors often bring a commitment to a different business process, and that's a big challenge is a lot of times the hardest things are the business processes that are entrenched in existing organizations and disruptors can say we're rethinking the way this gets done. I mean, the example of that in ride sharing, the Ubers and Lyfts of the world, deities where they are re-conceiving what does it mean to consume automobile services. Maybe you don't want to own a car at all if you're a millennial, maybe you just want to have access to a car when you need to go somewhere. That's a good example of a disruptive business model change. >> What are some things that are on the intermediate-term horizon that might affect how you go about trying to create a sustainable advantage? And here I mean things like where deep learning might help data scientists with feature engineering so there's less need for, you can make data scientists less of a scarce resource. Or where there's new types of training for models where you need less data? Those sorts of things might disrupt the practice of achieving an advantage with current AI technology. >> You know, that's a great question. So near-term, the ability to be more efficient in data science is a big deal. There's no surprise that there's a big talent gap, big shortage of qualified data scientists in the enterprise and one of the things that's exciting is that deep learning lets you get more information out of the data, so it learns more so that you'd have to do less future engineering. It's not like a magic box you just pour in raw data to deep learning and out comes the answers, so you still need qualified data scientists, but it's a force multiplier. There's less work to do in future engineering, and therefore you get better results. So that's a factor, you're starting to see things like a hyperparameter search where people will create neural networks that search for the best machine learning model, and again get another level of leverage. Now, today doing that is very expensive. The amount of hardware to do that, very few organizations are going to spend millions of dollars to sort of automate the discovery of models, but things are moving so fast. I mean, even just in the last six weeks to have Nvidia and Google both announce significant breakthroughs in hardware. And I just had a colleague forward me a paper for recent research that says hey this technique could produce a hundred times faster results in deep learning convergence. So you've got rapid advances in investment in the hardware and the software. Historically software improvements have outstripped hardware improvements throughout the history of computing, so it's quite reasonable to expect you'll have 10 thousand times the price performance for deep learning in five years. So things that today might cost a hundred million dollars and no one would do, could cost 10 thousand dollars in five years, and suddenly it's a no-brainer to apply a technique like that to automate something instead of hiring more scarce data scientists that are hard to find, and make the data scientists more productive so they're spending more time thinking about what's going on and less time trying out different variations of how do I configure this thing, does this work, does this, right? >> Oh gosh, Ron, we could keep chatting away. Thank you so much for stopping by theCUBE again, we wish you the best of luck in your keynote tomorrow. I think people are going to be very inspired by your passion, your energy, and also the tremendous opportunity that is really sitting right in front of us. >> Thank you, Lisa, it's a very exciting time to be in the data industry, and the emergence of AI and the enterprise, I couldn't be more excited by it. >> Oh, excellent, well your excitement is palpable. We want to thank you for watching. We are live on theCUBE at the DataWorks Summit day 2, #dws17. For my cohost George Gilbert, I'm Lisa Martin, stick around. We'll be right back. (upbeat electronic melody)

>> Announcer: Live, from San Jose, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE, covering DataWorks Summit 2017. Brought to you by Hortonworks. (electronic music fading) >> Hi everybody, this is George Gilbert. We're watching theCUBE. We're at DataWorks 2017 with my good friend Sri Raghavan from Teradata, and Sri, let's kick this off. Tell us, bring us up to date with what Teradata's been doing in the era of big data and advanced analytics. >> First of all, George, it's always great to be back with you. I've done this before with you, and it's a pleasure coming back, and I always have fun doing this. So thanks for having me and Teradata on theCUBE. So, a lot of things have been going on at Teradata. As you know, we are the pioneer in the enterprise data warehouse space. We've been so for the past 25 plus years, and, you know, we've got an incredible amount of goodwill in the marketplace with a lot of our key customers and all that. And as you also know, in the last, you know, five or seven years or so, between five and seven years, we've actually expanded our portfolio significantly to go well beyond the enterprise data warehouse into advanced analytics. We've got solutions for the quote-unquote the big data, advanced analytics space. We've acquired organizations which have significant amount of core competence with enormous numbers of years of experience of people who can deliver us solutions and services. So it's fair to say, as an understatement, that we have, we've come a long way in terms of being a very formidable competitor in the marketplace with the kinds of, not only our core enterprise data warehouse solutions, but also advanced analytics solutions, both as products and solutions and services that we have developed over time. >> So I was at the Influencer Summit, not this year but the year before, and the thing, what struck me was you guys articulated very consistently and clearly the solutions that people build with the technology as opposed to just the technology. Let's pick one, like Customer Journey that I remember that was used last year. >> Sri: Right. >> And tell us, sort of, what are the components in it, and, sort of, what are the outcomes you get using it? >> Sure. First of all, thanks for picking on that point because it's a very important point that you mentioned, right? It's not- in today's world, it can't just be about the technology. We just can't go on and articulate things around our technology and the core competence, but we also have to make a very legitimate case for delivering solutions to the business. So, our, in fact, our motto is: Business solutions that are technology-enabled. We have a strong technology underpinning to be able to deliver solutions like Customer Journey. Let me give you a view into what Customer Journey is all about, right? So the idea of the Customer Journey, it's actually pretty straightforward. It's about being able to determine the kind of experience a customer is having as she or he engages with you across the various channels that they do business with you at. So it could be directly they come into the store, it could be online, it could be through snail mail, email, what have you. The point is not to look at Customer Journey as a set of disparate channels through which they interact with you, but to look at it holistically. Across the various areas of encounters they have with you and engagements they have with you, how do you determine what their overall experience is, and, more importantly, once you determine what their overall experience is, how can you have certain kinds of treatments that are very specific to the different parts of the experience and make their experience and engagement even better? >> Okay, so let me jump in for a second there. >> We've seen a lot of marketing automation companies come by and say, you know, or come and go having said over many generations, "We can help you track that." And they all seem to, like, target either ads or email. >> Correct. >> There's like, the touchpoints are constrained. How do you capture a broader, you know, a broader journey? >> Yeah, to me it's not just the touchpoints being constrained, although all the touchpoints are constrained. To me, it's almost as if those touchpoints are looked at very independently, and it's very orthogonal too, right? I look at only my online experience versus a store experience versus something else, right? And the assumption in most cases is that they're all not related. You know, sometimes, I may not come directly to the store, right, but the reason why I'm not coming to the store is because, to buy things, because, you know, I have seen an advertisement somewhere which says, "Look, go online and purchase a product." So whatever the case might be, the point is each part of the journey is very interrelated, and you need to understand this is as well. Now, the question that you asked is, "How do you, for instance, collect all this information? "Where do you store it?" >> George: And how do you relate it ... >> And, exactly, and how do you connect the various points of interaction, right? So for one thing, and let me just, sort of, go a little bit tangential and go into some architecture, the marchitecture, if you will that allows us to be able to, first of all, access all of this data. As you can imagine, the types and the sources of data are quite a bit, are pretty disparate, particularly as the number of channels by which you can engage with me as an organization has expanded, so do the number of sources. So, you know, we have to go to place A, where there's a lot of CRM information for instance, or place B, where it's a lot of online information, weblogs and web servers and what have you, right? So, we have to go to, for instance, some of these guys would have put all this information in a big data lake. Or they could have stored it in an EDW, in an enterprise data warehouse. So we've put in place a technology, an architecture, which allows us to be able to connect to all these various sources, be it Teradata products, or non-Terada- third-party sources, we don't care. We have the capability to connect all to, to these different data sources to be able to access information. So that's number one. Number two is how do you normalize all of this information? So as you can well imagine, right, webs logs servers are very different in their data makeup as apposed to CRM solutions, highly structured information. So we need a way to be able to bring them together, to connect a singular user ID across the different sources, so we have filtering, you know, data filters in place that extracts information from weblogs, let's say it's a XML file. So we extract all that information, and we connect it. We, ultimately, all of that information comes to you in a structured manner. >> And can it, can it be realtime reactive? In other words when- >> Sri: Absolutely. >> someone comes to- >> Sri: Absolutely. >> you know, a channel where you need to anticipate and influence. >> Very good question. In fact, I think we will be doing a big disservice to our customers if we did not have realtime decisioning in place. I mean, the whole idea is for us to be able to provide certain treatments based on what we anticipate your reactions are going to be to certain, let's say if it's a retail store, let's say to certain product coupons we've placed, which says, you know, come online, and basically behavior we think there's a 90% chance that tomorrow morning you're going to come back, you know, through our online portal and buy the products. And because of the fact that our analytics allows us to be able to predict your behavior tomorrow morning, as soon as you land on the online portal, we will be able to provide certain treatment to you that takes advantage of that. Absolutely. >> Techy question: because you're anticipating, does that mean you've done the prediction runs, batch, >> Sri: Absolutely. >> And so you're just serving up the answer. >> Yeah, the business level answer is absolutely. In fact, we have, as part of our advanced analytics solution, we have pre-built algorithms that take all this information that I've talked to you about, where it's connected all that information across the different sources, and we apply algorithms on top of that to be able to deliver predictive models. Now, these models, once they are actually applied as and when the data comes in, you know, you can operationalize them. So the thing to be very clear here, a key part of the Teradata story, is that not only are we in a position to be able to provide the infrastructure which allows you to be able to collect all the information, but we provide the analytic capabilities to be able to connect all of the data across the various sources and at scale, to do the analytics on top of all that disparate data, to deliver the model, and, as an important point, to operationalize that model, and then to connect it back in the feedback loop. We do the whole thing. >> That's, there's a lot to unpack in there, and I called our last guest dense. What I was actually trying to say, we had to unpack a dense answer, so it didn't come out quite that, quite right. So I won't make that mistake. >> Sri: That's a very backhanded compliment there. (George laughing) >> So, explain to me though, the, I know from all the folks who are trying to embed predictive analytics in their solutions, the operationalizing of the model is very difficult, you know, to integrate it with the system of record. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> How do, you know, how do you guys do that? >> So a good point. There are two ways by which we do it. One is we have something called the AppCenter. It's called Teradata AppCenter. The AppCenter is a core capability of some of the work we've done so far, in fact we've had it for the last, I don't know, four years or so. We've actually expanded it across, uh, to include a lot of the apps. So the idea behind the AppCenter is that it's a framework for us to be able to develop very specific apps for us to be able to deliver the model so that next time, as and when realtime data comes in, when you connect to a database for instance. So the way the app works is that you set up the app. There's a code that we've created, it's all prebuilt code that he put behind that app, and it runs, the app runs. Every time the data is refreshed, you can run the app, and it automatically comes up with visualizations which allow you to be able to see what's happening with your customers in realtime. So that's one way to operationalize. In fact, you know, if you come by to our booth, we can show you a demo as to how the AppCenter works. The other say by which we've done it is to develop a software development kit where we actually have created an operationalization. So, as an, I'll give you an example, right? We developed an app, a realtime operationalization app where the folks in the call center are assessing whether you should be given a loan to buy a certain kind of car, a used car, brand new car, what have you the case might be. So what happens is the call center person takes information from you, gets information about, you know, what your income level is, you know, how long you've been working in your existing job, what have you. And those are parameters that are passed into the screen- >> By the way, I should just say, on the income level, it's way too low for my taste. >> Those are, um, those are comments I'll take, uh, later. >> Off slide. >> But, I mean, you got a brand new Armani suit, so you're not doing badly. But, uh, so what happens is, you know, as and when the data goes into the parameters, right, the call center person just clicks on the button, and the model which sits behind the app picks up all the parameters, runs it, and spews out a likelihood score saying that this person is 88% likely- >> So an AppCenter is not just a full end to end app, it also can be a model. >> AppCenter can include the model which can be used to operationalize as and when the data comes in. >> George: Okay. >> It's a very core part of our offering. In fact, AppCenter is, I can't stress how important, I can't stress enough how important it is to our ability to operationalize our various analytic models. >> Okay, one more techy question in terms of how that's supported. Is the AppCenter running on Aster or the models, are they running on Aster, uh, the old Aster database or Teradata? >> Well, just to be clear, right, so the Aster solution is called Aster Analytics of which one foreign factor contains a database, but you have Aster which is in Hadoop, you have Aster in the Cloud, you have Aster software only, so there's a lot of difference between these two, right? So AppCenter sits on Aster, but right now, it's not just the Aster AppCenter. It's called the Teradata AppCenter which sits on, with the idea is that it will sit on Teradata products as well. >> George: Okay. >> So again, it's a really core part of our evolution that we've come up with. We're very proud of it. >> On that note, we have to wrap it up for today, but to be continued. >> Sri: Time flies when you're having fun. >> Yes. So this is George Gilbert. I am with Sri Raghavan from Teradata. We are at DataWorks 2017 in San Jose, and we will be back tomorrow with a whole lineup of exciting new guests. Tune in tomorrow morning. Thanks. (electronic music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Recent conversations with IT decision makers show a stark contrast between exiting 2023 versus the mindset when we were leaving 2022. CIOs are generally funding new initiatives by pushing off or cutting lower priority items, while security efforts are still being funded. Those that enable business initiatives that generate revenue or taking priority over cleaning up legacy technical debt. The bottom line is, for the moment, at least, the mindset is not cut everything, rather, it's put a pause on cleaning up legacy hairballs and fund monetization. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we tap recent discussions from two primary sources, year-end ETR roundtables with IT decision makers, and CUBE conversations with data, cloud, and IT architecture practitioners. The sources of data for this breaking analysis come from the following areas. Eric Bradley's recent ETR year end panel featured a financial services DevOps and SRE manager, a CSO in a large hospitality firm, a director of IT for a big tech company, the head of IT infrastructure for a financial firm, and a CTO for global travel enterprise, and for our upcoming Supercloud2 conference on January 17th, which you can register free by the way, at supercloud.world, we've had CUBE conversations with data and cloud practitioners, specifically, heads of data in retail and financial services, a cloud architect and a biotech firm, the director of cloud and data at a large media firm, and the director of engineering at a financial services company. Now we've curated commentary from these sources and now we share them with you today as anecdotal evidence supporting what we've been reporting on in the marketplace for these last couple of quarters. On this program, we've likened the economy to the slingshot effect when you're driving, when you're cruising along at full speed on the highway, and suddenly you see red brake lights up ahead, so, you tap your own brakes and then you speed up again, and traffic is moving along at full speed, so, you think nothing of it, and then, all of a sudden, the same thing happens. You slow down to a crawl and you start wondering, "What the heck is happening?" And you become a lot more cautious about the rate of acceleration when you start moving again. Well, that's the trend in IT spend right now. Back in June, we reported that despite the macro headwinds, CIOs were still expecting 6% to 7% spending growth for 2022. Now that was down from 8%, which we reported at the beginning of 2022. That was before Ukraine, and Fed tightening, but given those two factors, you know that that seemed pretty robust, but throughout the fall, we began reporting consistently declining expectations where CIOs are now saying Q4 will come in at around 3% growth relative to last year, and they're expecting, or should we say hoping that it pops back up in 2023 to 4% to 5%. The recent ETR panelists, when they heard this, are saying based on their businesses and discussions with their peers, they could see low single digit growth for 2023, so, 1%, 2%, 3%, so, this sort of slingshotting, or sometimes we call it a seesaw economy, has caught everyone off guard. Amazon is a good example of this, and there are others, but Amazon entered the pandemic with around 800,000 employees. It doubled that workforce during the pandemic. Now, right before Thanksgiving in 2022, Amazon announced that it was laying off 10,000 employees, and, Jassy, the CEO of Amazon, just last week announced that number is now going to grow to 18,000. Now look, this is a rounding error at Amazon from a headcount standpoint and their headcount remains far above 2019 levels. Its stock price, however, does not and it's back down to 2019 levels. The point is that visibility is very poor right now and it's reflected in that uncertainty. We've seen a lot of layoffs, obviously, the stock market's choppy, et cetera. Now importantly, not everything is on hold, and this downturn is different from previous tech pullbacks in that the speed at which new initiatives can be rolled out is much greater thanks to the cloud, and if you can show a fast return, you're going to get funding. Organizations are pausing on the cleanup of technical debt, unless it's driving fast business value. They're holding off on modernization projects. Those business enablement initiatives are still getting funded. CIOs are finding the money by consolidating redundant vendors, and they're stealing from other pockets of budget, so, it's not surprising that cybersecurity remains the number one technology priority in 2023. We've been reporting that for quite some time now. It's specifically cloud, cloud native security container and API security. That's where all the action is, because there's still holes to plug from that forced march to digital that occurred during COVID. Cloud migration, kind of showing here on number two on this chart, still a high priority, while optimizing cloud spend is definitely a strategy that organizations are taking to cut costs. It's behind consolidating redundant vendors by a long shot. There's very little evidence that cloud repatriation, i.e., moving workloads back on prem is a major cost cutting trend. The data just doesn't show it. What is a trend is getting more real time with analytics, so, companies can do faster and more accurate customer targeting, and they're really prioritizing that, obviously, in this down economy. Real time, we sometimes lose it, what's real time? Real time, we sometimes define as before you lose the customer. Now in the hiring front, customers tell us they're still having a hard time finding qualified site reliability engineers, SREs, Kubernetes expertise, and deep analytics pros. These job markets remain very tight. Let's stay with security for just a moment. We said many times that, prior to COVID, zero trust was this undefined buzzword, and the joke, of course, is, if you ask three people, "What is zero trust?" You're going to get three different answers, but the truth is that virtually every security company that was resisting taking a position on zero trust in an attempt to avoid... They didn't want to get caught up in the buzzword vortex, but they're now really being forced to go there by CISOs, so, there are some good quotes here on cyber that we want to share that came out of the recent conversations that we cited up front. The first one, "Zero trust is the highest ROI, because it enables business transformation." In other words, if I can have good security, I can move fast, it's not a blocker anymore. Second quote here, "ZTA," zero trust architecture, "Is more than securing the perimeter. It encompasses strong authentication and multiple identity layers. It requires taking a software approach to security instead of a hardware focus." The next one, "I'd love to have a security data lake that I could apply to asset management, vulnerability management, incident management, incident response, and all aspects for my security team. I see huge promise in that space," and the last one, I see NLP, natural language processing, as the foundation for email security, so, instead of searching for IP addresses, you can now read emails at light speed and identify phishing threats, so, look at, this is a small snapshot of the mindset around security, but I'll add, when you talk to the likes of CrowdStrike, and Zscaler, and Okta, and Palo Alto Networks, and many other security firms, they're listening to these narratives around zero trust. I'm confident they're working hard on skating to this puck, if you will. A good example is this idea of a security data lake and using analytics to improve security. We're hearing a lot about that. We're hearing architectures, there's acquisitions in that regard, and so, that's becoming real, and there are many other examples, because data is at the heart of digital business. This is the next area that we want to talk about. It's obvious that data, as a topic, gets a lot of mind share amongst practitioners, but getting data right is still really hard. It's a challenge for most organizations to get ROI and expected return out of data. Most companies still put data at the periphery of their businesses. It's not at the core. Data lives within silos or different business units, different clouds, it's on-prem, and increasingly it's at the edge, and it seems like the problem is getting worse before it gets better, so, here are some instructive comments from our recent conversations. The first one, "We're publishing events onto Kafka, having those events be processed by Dataproc." Dataproc is a Google managed service to run Hadoop, and Spark, and Flank, and Presto, and a bunch of other open source tools. We're putting them into the appropriate storage models within Google, and then normalize the data into BigQuery, and only then can you take advantage of tools like ThoughtSpot, so, here's a company like ThoughtSpot, and they're all about simplifying data, democratizing data, but to get there, you have to go through some pretty complex processes, so, this is a good example. All right, another comment. "In order to use Google's AI tools, we have to put the data into BigQuery. They haven't integrated in the way AWS and Snowflake have with SageMaker. Moving the data is too expensive, time consuming, and risky," so, I'll just say this, sharing data is a killer super cloud use case, and firms like Snowflake are on top of it, but it's still not pretty across clouds, and Google's posture seems to be, "We're going to let our database product competitiveness drive the strategy first, and the ecosystem is going to take a backseat." Now, in a way, I get it, owning the database is critical, and Google doesn't want to capitulate on that front. Look, BigQuery is really good and competitive, but you can't help but roll your eyes when a CEO stands up, and look, I'm not calling out Thomas Kurian, every CEO does this, and talks about how important their customers are, and they'll do whatever is right by the customer, so, look, I'm telling you, I'm rolling my eyes on that. Now let me also comment, AWS has figured this out. They're killing it in database. If you take Redshift for example, it's still growing, as is Aurora, really fast growing services and other data stores, but AWS realizes it can make more money in the long-term partnering with the Snowflakes and Databricks of the world, and other ecosystem vendors versus sub optimizing their relationships with partners and customers in order to sell more of their own homegrown tools. I get it. It's hard not to feature your own product. IBM chose OS/2 over Windows, and tried for years to popularize it. It failed. Lotus, go back way back to Lotus 1, 2, and 3, they refused to run on Windows when it first came out. They were running on DEC VAX. Many of you young people in the United States have never even heard of DEC VAX. IBM wanted to run every everything only in its cloud, the same with Oracle, originally. VMware, as you might recall, tried to build its own cloud, but, eventually, when the market speaks and reveals what seems to be obvious to analysts, years before, the vendors come around, they face reality, and they stop wasting money, fighting a losing battle. "The trend is your friend," as the saying goes. All right, last pull quote on data, "The hardest part is transformations, moving traditional Informatica, Teradata, or Oracle infrastructure to something more modern and real time, and that's why people still run apps in COBOL. In IT, we rarely get rid of stuff, rather we add on another coat of paint until the wood rots out or the roof is going to cave in. All right, the last key finding we want to highlight is going to bring us back to the cloud repatriation myth. Followers of this program know it's a real sore spot with us. We've heard the stories about repatriation, we've read the thoughtful articles from VCs on the subject, we've been whispered to by vendors that you should investigate this trend. It's really happening, but the data simply doesn't support it. Here's the question that was posed to these practitioners. If you had unlimited budget and the economy miraculously flipped, what initiatives would you tackle first? Where would you really lean into? The first answer, "I'd rip out legacy on-prem infrastructure and move to the cloud even faster," so, the thing here is, look, maybe renting infrastructure is more expensive than owning, maybe, but if I can optimize my rental with better utilization, turn off compute, use things like serverless, get on a steeper and higher performance over time, and lower cost Silicon curve with things like Graviton, tap best of breed tools in AI, and other areas that make my business more competitive. Move faster, fail faster, experiment more quickly, and cheaply, what's that worth? Even the most hard-o CFOs understand the business benefits far outweigh the possible added cost per gigabyte, and, again, I stress "possible." Okay, other interesting comments from practitioners. "I'd hire 50 more data engineers and accelerate our real-time data capabilities to better target customers." Real-time is becoming a thing. AI is being injected into data and apps to make faster decisions, perhaps, with less or even no human involvement. That's on the rise. Next quote, "I'd like to focus on resolving the concerns around cloud data compliance," so, again, despite the risks of data being spread out in different clouds, organizations realize cloud is a given, and they want to find ways to make it work better, not move away from it. The same thing in the next one, "I would automate the data analytics pipeline and focus on a safer way to share data across the states without moving it," and, finally, "The way I'm addressing complexity is to standardize on a single cloud." MonoCloud is actually a thing. We're hearing this more and more. Yes, my company has multiple clouds, but in my group, we've standardized on a single cloud to simplify things, and this is a somewhat dangerous trend, because it's creating even more silos and it's an opportunity that needs to be addressed, and that's why we've been talking so much about supercloud is a cross-cloud, unifying, architectural framework, or, perhaps, it's a platform. In fact, that's a question that we will be exploring later this month at Supercloud2 live from our Palo Alto Studios. Is supercloud an architecture or is it a platform? And in this program, we're featuring technologists, analysts, practitioners to explore the intersection between data and cloud and the future of cloud computing, so, you don't want to miss this opportunity. Go to supercloud.world. You can register for free and participate in the event directly. All right, thanks for listening. That's a wrap. I'd like to thank Alex Myerson, who's on production and manages our podcast, Ken Schiffman as well, Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight, they helped get the word out on social media, and in our newsletters, and Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at siliconangle.com. He does some great editing. Thank you, all. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts wherever you listen. All you've got to do is search "breaking analysis podcasts." I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com where you can email me directly at david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me, @Dante, or comment on our LinkedIn posts. By all means, check out etr.ai. They get the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. We'll be doing our annual predictions post in a few weeks, once the data comes out from the January survey. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, everybody, and we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis." (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Good morning everybody. Welcome back to Las Vegas. This is day four of theCUBE's wall-to-wall coverage of our Super Bowl, aka AWS re:Invent 2022. I'm here with my co-host, Paul Gillin. My name is Dave Vellante. Sanjay Poonen is in the house, CEO and president of Cohesity. He's sitting in as our guest market watcher, market analyst, you know, deep expertise, new to the job at Cohesity. He was kind enough to sit in, and help us break down what's happening at re:Invent. But Paul, first thing, this morning we heard from Werner Vogels. He was basically given a masterclass on system design. It reminded me of mainframes years ago. When we used to, you know, bury through those IBM blue books and red books. You remember those Sanjay? That's how we- learned back then. >> Oh God, I remember those, Yeah. >> But it made me think, wow, now you know IBM's more of a systems design, nobody talks about IBM anymore. Everybody talks about Amazon. So you wonder, 20 years from now, you know what it's going to be. But >> Well- >> Werner's amazing. >> He pulled out a 24 year old document. >> Yup. >> That he had written early in Amazon's evolution about synchronous design or about essentially distributed architectures that turned out to be prophetic. >> His big thing was nature is asynchronous. So systems are asynchronous. Synchronous is an illusion. It's an abstraction. It's kind of interesting. But, you know- >> Yeah, I mean I've had synonyms for things. Timeless architecture. Werner's an absolute legend. I mean, when you think about folks who've had, you know, impact on technology, you think of people like Jony Ive in design. >> Dave: Yeah. >> You got to think about people like Werner in architecture and just the fact that Andy and the team have been able to keep him engaged that long... I pay attention to his keynote. Peter DeSantis has obviously been very, very influential. And then of course, you know, Adam did a good job, you know, watching from, you know, having watched since I was at the first AWS re:Invent conference, at time was President SAP and there was only a thousand people at this event, okay? Andy had me on stage. I think I was one of the first guest of any tech company in 2011. And to see now this become like, it's a mecca. It's a mother of all IT events, and watch sort of even the transition from Andy to Adam is very special. I got to catch some of Ruba's keynote. So while there's some new people in the mix here, this has become a force of nature. And the last time I was here was 2019, before Covid, watched the last two ones online. But it feels like, I don't know 'about what you guys think, it feels like it's back to 2019 levels. >> I was here in 2019. I feel like this was bigger than 2019 but some people have said that it's about the same. >> I think it was 60,000 versus 50,000. >> Yes. So close. >> It was a little bigger in 2019. But it feels like it's more active. >> And then last year, Sanjay, you weren't here but it was 25,000, which was amazing 'cause it was right in that little space between Omicron, before Omicron hit. But you know, let me ask you a question and this is really more of a question about Amazon's maturity and I know you've been following them since early days. But the way I get the question, number one question I get from people is how is Amazon AWS going to be different under Adam than it was under Andy? What do you think? >> I mean, Adam's not new because he was here before. In some senses he knows the Amazon culture from prior, when he was running sales and marketing prior. But then he took the time off and came back. I mean, this will always be, I think, somewhat Andy's baby, right? Because he was the... I, you know, sent him a text, "You should be really proud of what you accomplished", but you know, I think he also, I asked him when I saw him a few weeks ago "Are you going to come to re:Invent?" And he says, "No, I want to leave this to be Adam's show." And Adam's going to have a slightly different view. His keynotes are probably half the time. It's a little bit more vision. There was a lot more customer stories at the beginning of it. Taking you back to the inspirational pieces of it. I think you're going to see them probably pulling up the stack and not just focused in infrastructure. Many of their platform services are evolved. Many of their, even application services. I'm surprised when I talk to customers. Like Amazon Connect, their sort of call center type technologies, an app layer. It's getting a lot. I mean, I've talked to a couple of Fortune 500 companies that are moving off Ayer to Connect. I mean, it's happening and I did not know that. So it's, you know, I think as they move up the stack, the platform's gotten more... The data centric stack has gotten, and you know, in the area we're working with Cohesity, security, data protection, they're an investor in our company. So this is an important, you know, both... I think tech player and a partner for many companies like us. >> I wonder the, you know, the marketplace... there's been a big push on the marketplace by all the cloud companies last couple of years. Do you see that disrupting the way softwares, enterprise software is sold? >> Oh, for sure. I mean, you have to be a ostrich with your head in the sand to not see this wave happening. I mean, what's it? $150 billion worth of revenue. Even though the growth rates dipped a little bit the last quarter or so, it's still aggregatively between Amazon and Azure and Google, you know, 30% growth. And I think we're still in the second or third inning off a grand 1 trillion or 2 trillion of IT, shifting not all of it to the cloud, but significantly faster. So if you add up all of the big things of the on-premise world, they're, you know, they got to a certain size, their growth is stable, but stalling. These guys are growing significantly faster. And then if you add on top of them, platform companies the data companies, Snowflake, MongoDB, Databricks, you know, Datadog, and then apps companies on top of that. I think the move to the Cloud is inevitable. In SaaS companies, I don't know why you would ever implement a CRM solution on-prem. It's all gone to the Cloud. >> Oh, it is. >> That happened 15 years ago. I mean, begin within three, five years of the advent of Salesforce. And the same thing in HR. Why would you deploy a HR solution now? You've got Workday, you've got, you know, others that are so some of those apps markets are are just never coming back to an on-prem capability. >> Sanjay, I want to ask you, you built a reputation for being able to, you know, forecast accurately, hit your plan, you know, you hit your numbers, you're awesome operator. Even though you have a, you know, technology degree, which you know, that's a two-tool star, multi-tool star. But I call it the slingshot economy. This is like, I mean I've seen probably more downturns than anybody in here, you know, given... Well maybe, maybe- >> Maybe me. >> You and I both. I've never seen anything like this, where where visibility is so unpredictable. The economy is sling-shotting. It's like, oh, hurry up, go Covid, go, go go build, build, build supply, then pull back. And now going forward, now pulling back. Slootman said, you know, on the call, "Hey the guide, is the guide." He said, "we put it out there, We do our best to hit it." But you had CrowdStrike had issues you know, mid-market, ServiceNow. I saw McDermott on the other day on the, on the TV. I just want to pay, you know, buy from the guy. He's so (indistinct) >> But mixed, mixed results, Salesforce, you know, Octa now pre-announcing, hey, they're going to be, or announcing, you know, better visibility, forward guide. Elastic kind of got hit really hard. HPE and Dell actually doing really well in the enterprise. >> Yep. >> 'Course Dell getting killed in the client. But so what are you seeing out there? How, as an executive, do you deal with such poor visibility? >> I think, listen, what the last two or three years have taught us is, you know, with the supply chain crisis, with the surge that people thought you may need of, you know, spending potentially in the pandemic, you have to start off with your tech platform being 10 x better than everybody else. And differentiate, differentiate. 'Cause in a crowded market, but even in a market that's getting tougher, if you're not differentiating constantly through technology innovation, you're going to get left behind. So you named a few places, they're all technology innovators, but even if some of them are having challenges, and then I think you're constantly asking yourselves, how do you move from being a point product to a platform with more and more services where you're getting, you know, many of them moving really fast. In the case of Roe, I like him a lot. He's probably one of the most savvy operators, also that I respect. He calls these speedboats, and you know, his core platform started off with the firewall network security. But he's built now a very credible cloud security, cloud AI security business. And I think that's how you need to be thinking as a tech executive. I mean, if you got core, your core beachhead 10 x better than everybody else. And as you move to adjacencies in these new platforms, have you got now speedboats that are getting to a point where they are competitive advantage? Then as you think of the go-to-market perspective, it really depends on where you are as a company. For a company like our size, we need partners a lot more. Because if we're going to, you know, stand on the shoulders of giants like Isaac Newton said, "I see clearly because I stand on the shoulders giants." I need to really go and cultivate Amazon so they become our lead partner in cloud. And then appropriately Microsoft and Google where I need to. And security. Part of what we announced last week was, last month, yeah, last couple of weeks ago, was the data security alliance with the biggest security players. What was I trying to do with that? First time ever done in my industry was get Palo Alto, CrowdStrike, Wallace, Tenable, CyberArk, Splunk, all to build an alliance with me so I could stand on their shoulders with them helping me. If you're a bigger company, you're constantly asking yourself "how do you make sure you're getting your, like Amazon, their top hundred customers spending more with that?" So I think the the playbook evolves, and I'm watching some of these best companies through this time navigate through this. And I think leadership is going to be tested in enormously interesting ways. >> I'll say. I mean, Snowflake is really interesting because they... 67% growth, which is, I mean, that's best in class for a company that's $2 billion. And, but their guide was still, you know, pretty aggressive. You know, so it's like, do you, you know, when it when it's good times you go, "hey, we can we can guide conservatively and know we can beat it." But when you're not certain, you can't dial down too far 'cause your investors start to bail on you. It's a really tricky- >> But Dave, I think listen, at the end of the day, I mean every CEO should not be worried about the short term up and down in the stock price. You're building a long-term multi-billion dollar company. In the case of Frank, he has, I think I shot to a $10 billion, you know, analytics data warehousing data management company on the back of that platform, because he's eyeing the market that, not just Teradata occupies today, but now Oracle occupies or other databases, right? So his tam as it grows bigger, you're going to have some of these things, but that market's big. I think same with Palo Alto. I mean Datadog's another company, 75% growth. >> Yeah. >> At 20% margins, like almost rule of 95. >> Amazing. >> When they're going after, not just the observability market, they're eating up the sim market, security analytics, the APM market. So I think, you know, that's, you look at these case studies of companies who are going from point product to platforms and are steadily able to grow into new tams. You know, to me that's very inspiring. >> I get it. >> Sanjay: That's what I seek to do at our com. >> I get that it's a marathon, but you know, when you're at VMware, weren't you looking at the stock price every day just out of curiosity? I mean listen, you weren't micromanaging it. >> You do, but at the end of the day, and you certainly look at the days of earnings and so on so forth. >> Yeah. >> Because you want to create shareholder value. >> Yeah. >> I'm not saying that you should not but I think in obsession with that, you know, in a short term, >> Going to kill ya. >> Makes you, you know, sort of myopically focused on what may not be the right thing in the long term. Now in the long arc of time, if you're not creating shareholder value... Look at what happened to Steve Bomber. You needed Satya to come in to change things and he's created a lot of value. >> Dave: Yeah, big time. >> But I think in the short term, my comments were really on the quarter to quarter, but over a four a 12 quarter, if companies are growing and creating profitable growth, they're going to get the valuation they deserve. >> Dave: Yeah. >> Do you the... I want to ask you about something Arvind Krishna said in the previous IBM earnings call, that IT is deflationary and therefore it is resistant to the macroeconomic headwinds. So IT spending should actually thrive in a deflation, in a adverse economic climate. Do you think that's true? >> Not all forms of IT. I pay very close attention to surveys from, whether it's the industry analysts or the Morgan Stanleys, or Goldman Sachs. The financial analysts. And I think there's a gluc in certain sectors that will get pulled back. Traditional view is when the economies are growing people spend on the top line, front office stuff, sales, marketing. If you go and look at just the cloud 100 companies, which are the hottest private companies, and maybe with the public market companies, there's way too many companies focused on sales and marketing. Way too many. I think during a downsizing and recession, that's going to probably shrink some, because they were all built for the 2009 to 2021 era, where it was all about the top line. Okay, maybe there's now a proposition for companies who are focused on cost optimization, supply chain visibility. Security's been intangible, that I think is going to continue to an investment. So I tell, listen, if you are a tech investor or if you're an operator, pay attention to CIO priorities. And right now, in our business at Cohesity, part of the reason we've embraced things like ransomware protection, there is a big focus on security. And you know, by intelligently being a management and a security company around data, I do believe we'll continue to be extremely relevant to CIO budgets. There's a ransomware, 20 ransomware attempts every second. So things of that kind make you relevant in a bank. You have to stay relevant to a buying pattern or else you lose momentum. >> But I think what's happening now is actually IT spending's pretty good. I mean, I track this stuff pretty closely. It's just that expectations were so high and now you're seeing earnings estimates come down and so, okay, and then you, yeah, you've got the, you know the inflationary factors and your discounted cash flows but the market's actually pretty good. >> Yeah. >> You know, relative to other downturns that if this is not a... We're not actually not in a downturn. >> Yeah. >> Not yet anyway. It may be. >> There's a valuation there. >> You have to prepare. >> Not sales. >> Yeah, that's right. >> When I was on CNBC, I said "listen, it's a little bit like that story of Joseph. Seven years of feast, seven years of famine." You have to prepare for potentially your worst. And if it's not the worst, you're in good shape. So will it be a recession 2023? Maybe. You know, high interest rates, inflation, war in Russia, Ukraine, maybe things do get bad. But if you belt tightening, if you're focused in operational excellence, if it's not a recession, you're pleasantly surprised. If it is one, you're prepared for it. >> All right. I'm going to put you in the spot and ask you for predictions. Expert analysis on the World Cup. What do you think? Give us the breakdown. (group laughs) >> As my... I wish India was in the World Cup, but you can't get enough Indians at all to play soccer well enough, but we're not, >> You play cricket, though. >> I'm a US man first. I would love to see one of Brazil, or Argentina. And as a Messi person, I don't know if you'll get that, but it would be really special for Messi to lead, to end his career like Maradonna winning a World Cup. I don't know if that'll happen. I'm probably going to go one of the Latin American countries, if the US doesn't make it far enough. But first loyalty to the US team, and then after one of the Latin American countries. >> And you think one of the Latin American countries is best bet to win or? >> I don't know. It's hard to tell. They're all... What happens now at this stage >> So close, right? >> is anybody could win. >> Yeah. You just have lots of shots of gold. I'm a big soccer fan. It could, I mean, I don't know if the US is favored to win, but if they get far enough, you get to the finals, anybody could win. >> I think they get Netherlands next, right? >> That's tough. >> Really tough. >> But... The European teams are good too, but I would like to see US go far enough, and then I'd like to see Latin America with team one of Argentina, or Brazil. That's my prediction. >> I know you're a big Cricket fan. Are you able to follow Cricket the way you like? >> At god unearthly times the night because they're in Australia, right? >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. >> I watched the T-20 World Cup, select games of it. Yeah, you know, I'm not rapidly following every single game but the World Cup games, I catch you. >> Yeah, it's good. >> It's good. I mean, I love every sport. American football, soccer. >> That's great. >> You get into basketball now, I mean, I hope the Warriors come back strong. Hey, how about the Warriors Celtics? What do we think? We do it again? >> Well- >> This year. >> I'll tell you what- >> As a Boston Celtics- >> I would love that. I actually still, I have to pay off some folks from Palo Alto office with some bets still. We are seeing unprecedented NBA performance this year. >> Yeah. >> It's amazing. You look at the stats, it's like nothing. I know it's early. Like nothing we've ever seen before. So it's exciting. >> Well, always a pleasure talking to you guys. >> Great to have you on. >> Thanks for having me. >> Thank you. Love the expert analysis. >> Sanjay Poonen. Dave Vellante. Keep it right there. re:Invent 2022, day four. We're winding up in Las Vegas. We'll be right back. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (lighthearted soft music)

>> From the CUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from the Cube and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> A better than expected earnings report in late August got people excited about Snowflake again, but the negative sentiment in the market is weighed heavily on virtually all growth tech stocks and Snowflake is no exception. As we've stressed many times the company's management is on a long term mission to dramatically simplify the way organizations use data. Snowflake is tapping into a multi hundred billion dollar total available market and continues to grow at a rapid pace. In our view, Snowflake is embarking on its third major wave of innovation data apps, while its first and second waves are still bearing significant fruit. Now for short term traders focused on the next 90 or 180 days, that probably doesn't matter. But those taking a longer view are asking, "Should we still be optimistic about the future of this high flyer or is it just another over hyped tech play?" Hello and welcome to this week's Wiki Bond Cube Insights powered by ETR. Snowflake's Quarter just ended. And in this breaking analysis we take a look at the most recent survey data from ETR to see what clues and nuggets we can extract to predict the near term future in the long term outlook for Snowflake which is going to announce its earnings at the end of this month. Okay, so you know the story. If you've been investor in Snowflake this year, it's been painful. We said at IPO, "If you really want to own this stock on day one, just hold your nose and buy it." But like most IPOs we said there will be likely a better entry point in the future, and not surprisingly that's been the case. Snowflake IPOed a price of 120, which you couldn't touch on day one unless you got into a friends and family Delio. And if you did, you're still up 5% or so. So congratulations. But at one point last year you were up well over 200%. That's been the nature of this volatile stock, and I certainly can't help you with the timing of the market. But longer term Snowflake is targeting 10 billion in revenue for fiscal year 2028. A big number. Is it achievable? Is it big enough? Tell you what, let's come back to that. Now shorter term, our expert trader and breaking analysis contributor Chip Simonton said he got out of the stock a while ago after having taken a shot at what turned out to be a bear market rally. He pointed out that the stock had been bouncing around the 150 level for the last few months and broke that to the downside last Friday. So he'd expect 150 is where the stock is going to find resistance on the way back up, but there's no sign of support right now. He said maybe at 120, which was the July low and of course the IPO price that we just talked about. Now, perhaps earnings will be a catalyst, when Snowflake announces on November 30th, but until the mentality toward growth tech changes, nothing's likely to change dramatically according to Simonton. So now that we have that out of the way, let's take a look at the spending data for Snowflake in the ETR survey. Here's a chart that shows the time series breakdown of snowflake's net score going back to the October, 2021 survey. Now at that time, Snowflake's net score stood at a robust 77%. And remember, net score is a measure of spending velocity. It's a proprietary network, and ETR derives it from a quarterly survey of IT buyers and asks the respondents, "Are you adopting the platform new? Are you spending 6% or more? Is you're spending flat? Is you're spending down 6% or worse? Or are you leaving the platform decommissioning?" You subtract the percent of customers that are spending less or churning from those that are spending more and adopting or adopting and you get a net score. And that's expressed as a percentage of customers responding. In this chart we show Snowflake's in out of the total survey which ranges... The total survey ranges between 1,200 and 1,400 each quarter. And the very last column... Oh sorry, very last row, we show the number of Snowflake respondents that are coming in the survey from the Fortune 500 and the Global 2000. Those are two very important Snowflake constituencies. Now what this data tells us is that Snowflake exited 2021 with very strong momentum in a net score of 82%, which is off the charts and it was actually accelerating from the previous survey. Now by April that sentiment had flipped and Snowflake came down to earth with a 68% net score. Still highly elevated relative to its peers, but meaningfully down. Why was that? Because we saw a drop in new ads and an increase in flat spend. Then into the July and most recent October surveys, you saw a significant drop in the percentage of customers that were spending more. Now, notably, the percentage of customers who are contemplating adding the platform is actually staying pretty strong, but it is off a bit this past survey. And combined with a slight uptick in planned churn, net score is now down to 60%. That uptick from 0% and 1% and then 3%, it's still small, but that net score at 60% is still 20 percentage points higher than our highly elevated benchmark of 40% as you recall from listening to earlier breaking analysis. That 40% range is we consider a milestone. Anything above that is actually quite strong. But again, Snowflake is down and coming back to churn, while 3% churn is very low, in previous quarters we've seen Snowflake 0% or 1% decommissions. Now the last thing to note in this chart is the meaningful uptick in survey respondents that are citing, they're using the Snowflake platform. That's up to 212 in the survey. So look, it's hard to imagine that Snowflake doesn't feel the softening in the market like everyone else. Snowflake is guiding for around 60% growth in product revenue against the tough compare from a year ago with a 2% operating margin. So like every company, the reaction of the street is going to come down to how accurate or conservative the guide is from their CFO. Now, earlier this year, Snowflake acquired a company called Streamlit for around $800 million. Streamlit is an open source Python library and it makes it easier to build data apps with machine learning, obviously a huge trend. And like Snowflake, generally its focus is on simplifying the complex, in this case making data science easier to integrate into data apps that business people can use. So we were excited this summer in the July ETR survey to see that they added some nice data and pick on Streamlit, which we're showing here in comparison to Snowflake's core business on the left hand side. That's the data warehousing, the Streamlit pieces on the right hand side. And we show again net score over time from the previous survey for Snowflake's core database and data warehouse offering again on the left as compared to a Streamlit on the right. Snowflake's core product had 194 responses in the October, 22 survey, Streamlit had an end of 73, which is up from 52 in the July survey. So significant uptick of people responding that they're doing business in adopting Streamlit. That was pretty impressive to us. And it's hard to see, but the net scores stayed pretty constant for Streamlit at 51%. It was 52% I think in the previous quarter, well over that magic 40% mark. But when you blend it with Snowflake, it does sort of bring things down a little bit. Now there are two key points here. One is that the acquisition seems to have gained exposure right out of the gate as evidenced by the large number of responses. And two, the spending momentum. Again while it's lower than Snowflake overall, and when you blend it with Snowflake it does pull it down, it's very healthy and steady. Now let's do a little pure comparison with some of our favorite names in this space. This chart shows net score or spending velocity in the Y-axis, an overlap or presence, pervasiveness if you will, in the data set on the X-axis. That red dotted line again is that 40% highly elevated net score that we like to talk about. And that table inserted informs us as to how the companies are plotted, where the dots set up, the net score, the ins. And we're comparing a number of database players, although just a caution, Oracle includes all of Oracle including its apps. But we just put it in there for reference because it is the leader in database. Right off the bat, Snowflake jumps out with a net score of 64%. The 60% from the earlier chart, again included Streamlit. So you can see its core database, data warehouse business actually is higher than the total company average that we showed you before 'cause the Streamlit is blended in. So when you separate it out, Streamlit is right on top of data bricks. Isn't that ironic? Only Snowflake and Databricks in this selection of names are above the 40% level. You see Mongo and Couchbase, they know they're solid and Teradata cloud actually showing pretty well compared to some of the earlier survey results. Now let's isolate on the database data platform sector and see how that shapes up. And for this analysis, same XY dimensions, we've added the big giants, AWS and Microsoft and Google. And notice that those three plus Snowflake are just at or above the 40% line. Snowflake continues to lead by a significant margin in spending momentum and it keeps creeping to the right. That's that end that we talked about earlier. Now here's an interesting tidbit. Snowflake is often asked, and I've asked them myself many times, "How are you faring relative to AWS, Microsoft and Google, these big whales with Redshift and Synapse and Big Query?" And Snowflake has been telling folks that 80% of its business comes from AWS. And when Microsoft heard that, they said, "Whoa, wait a minute, Snowflake, let's partner up." 'Cause Microsoft is smart, and they understand that the market is enormous. And if they could do better with Snowflake, one, they may steal some business from AWS. And two, even if Snowflake is winning against some of the Microsoft database products, if it wins on Azure, Microsoft is going to sell more compute and more storage, more AI tools, more other stuff to these customers. Now AWS is really aggressive from a partnering standpoint with Snowflake. They're openly negotiating, not openly, but they're negotiating better prices. They're realizing that when it comes to data, the cheaper that you make the offering, the more people are going to consume. At scale economies and operating leverage are really powerful things at volume that kick in. Now Microsoft, they're coming along, they obviously get it, but Google is seemingly resistant to that type of go to market partnership. Rather than lean into Snowflake as a great partner Google's field force is kind of fighting fashion. Google itself at Cloud next heavily messaged what they call the open data cloud, which is a direct rip off of Snowflake. So what can we say about Google? They continue to be kind of behind the curve when it comes to go to market. Now just a brief aside on the competitive posture. I've seen Slootman, Frank Slootman, CEO of Snowflake in action with his prior companies and how he depositioned the competition. At Data Domain, he eviscerated a company called Avamar with their, what he called their expensive and slow post process architecture. I think he actually called it garbage, if I recall at one conference I heard him speak at. And that sort of destroyed BMC when he was at ServiceNow, kind of positioning them as the equivalent of the department of motor vehicles. And so it's interesting to hear how Snowflake openly talks about the data platforms of AWS, Microsoft, Google, and data bricks. I'll give you this sort of short bumper sticker. Redshift is just an on-prem database that AWS morphed to the cloud, which by the way is kind of true. They actually did a brilliant job of it, but it's basically a fact. Microsoft Excel, a collection of legacy databases, which also kind of morphed to run in the cloud. And even Big Query, which is considered cloud native by many if not most, is being positioned by Snowflake as originally an on-prem database to support Google's ad business, maybe. And data bricks is for those people smart enough to get it to Berkeley that love complexity. And now Snowflake doesn't, they don't mention Berkeley as far as I know. That's my addition. But you get the point. And the interesting thing about Databricks and Snowflake is a while ago in the cube I said that there was a new workload type emerging around data where you have AWS cloud, Snowflake obviously for the cloud database and Databricks data for the data science and EML, you bring those things together and there's this new workload emerging that's going to be very powerful in the future. And it's interesting to see now the aspirations of all three of these platforms are colliding. That's quite a dynamic, especially when you see both Snowflake and Databricks putting venture money and getting their hooks into the loyalties of the same companies like DBT labs and Calibra. Anyway, Snowflake's posture is that we are the pioneer in cloud native data warehouse, data sharing and now data apps. And our platform is designed for business people that want simplicity. The other guys, yes, they're formidable, but we Snowflake have an architectural lead and of course we run in multiple clouds. So it's pretty strong positioning or depositioning, you have to admit. Now I'm not sure I agree with the big query knockoffs completely. I think that's a bit of a stretch, but snowflake, as we see in the ETR survey data is winning. So in thinking about the longer term future, let's talk about what's different with Snowflake, where it's headed and what the opportunities are for the company. Snowflake put itself on the map by focusing on simplifying data analytics. What's interesting about that is the company's founders are as you probably know from Oracle. And rather than focusing on transactional data, which is Oracle's sweet spot, the stuff they worked on when they were at Oracle, the founder said, "We're going to go somewhere else. We're going to attack the data warehousing problem and the data analytics problem." And they completely re-imagined the database and how it could be applied to solve those challenges and reimagine what was possible if you had virtually unlimited compute and storage capacity. And of course Snowflake became famous for separating the compute from storage and being able to completely shut down compute so you didn't have to pay for it when you're not using it. And the ability to have multiple clusters hit the same data without making endless copies and a consumption/cloud pricing model. And then of course everyone on the planet realized, "Wow, that's a pretty good idea." Every venture capitalist in Silicon Valley has been funding companies to copy that move. And that today has pretty much become mainstream in table stakes. But I would argue that Snowflake not only had the lead, but when you look at how others are approaching this problem, it's not necessarily as clean and as elegant. Some of the startups, the early startups I think get it and maybe had an advantage of starting later, which can be a disadvantage too. But AWS is a good example of what I'm saying here. Is its version of separating compute from storage was an afterthought and it's good, it's... Given what they had it was actually quite clever and customers like it, but it's more of a, "Okay, we're going to tier to storage to lower cost, we're going to sort of dial down the compute not completely, we're not going to shut it off, we're going to minimize the compute required." It's really not true as separation is like for instance Snowflake has. But having said that, we're talking about competitors with lots of resources and cohort offerings. And so I don't want to make this necessarily all about the product, but all things being equal architecture matters, okay? So that's the cloud S-curve, the first one we're showing. Snowflake's still on that S-curve, and in and of itself it's got legs, but it's not what's going to power the company to 10 billion. The next S-curve we denote is the multi-cloud in the middle. And now while 80% of Snowflake's revenue is AWS, Microsoft is ramping up and Google, well, we'll see. But the interesting part of that curve is data sharing, and this idea of data clean rooms. I mean it really should be called the data sharing curve, but I have my reasons for calling it multi-cloud. And this is all about network effects and data gravity, and you're seeing this play out today, especially in industries like financial services and healthcare and government that are highly regulated verticals where folks are super paranoid about compliance. There not going to share data if they're going to get sued for it, if they're going to be in the front page of the Wall Street Journal for some kind of privacy breach. And what Snowflake has done is said, "Put all the data in our cloud." Now, of course now that triggers a lot of people because it's a walled garden, okay? It is. That's the trade off. It's not the Wild West, it's not Windows, it's Mac, it's more controlled. But the idea is that as different parts of the organization or even partners begin to share data that they need, it's got to be governed, it's got to be secure, it's got to be compliant, it's got to be trusted. So Snowflake introduced the idea of, they call these things stable edges. I think that's the term that they use. And they track a metric around stable edges. And so a stable edge, or think of it as a persistent edge is an ongoing relationship between two parties that last for some period of time, more than a month. It's not just a one shot deal, one a done type of, "Oh guys shared it for a day, done." It sent you an FTP, it's done. No, it's got to have trajectory over time. Four weeks or six weeks or some period of time that's meaningful. And that metric is growing. Now I think sort of a different metric that they track. I think around 20% of Snowflake customers are actively sharing data today and then they track the number of those edge relationships that exist. So that's something that's unique. Because again, most data sharing is all about making copies of data. That's great for storage companies, it's bad for auditors, and it's bad for compliance officers. And that trend is just starting out, that middle S-curve, it's going to kind of hit the base of that steep part of the S-curve and it's going to have legs through this decade we think. And then finally the third wave that we show here is what we call super cloud. That's why I called it multi-cloud before, so it could invoke super cloud. The idea that you've built a PAS layer that is purpose built for a specific objective, and in this case it's building data apps that are cloud native, shareable and governed. And is a long-term trend that's going to take some time to develop. I mean, application development platforms can take five to 10 years to mature and gain significant adoption, but this one's unique. This is a critical play for Snowflake. If it's going to compete with the big cloud players, it has to have an app development framework like Snowpark. It has to accommodate new data types like transactional data. That's why it announced this thing called UniStore last June, Snowflake a summit. And the pattern that's forming here is Snowflake is building layer upon layer with its architecture at the core. It's not currently anyway, it's not going out and saying, "All right, we're going to buy a company that's got to another billion dollars in revenue and that's how we're going to get to 10 billion." So it's not buying its way into new markets through revenue. It's actually buying smaller companies that can complement Snowflake and that it can turn into revenue for growth that fit in to the data cloud. Now as to the 10 billion by fiscal year 28, is that achievable? That's the question. Yeah, I think so. Would the momentum resources go to market product and management prowess that Snowflake has? Yes, it's definitely achievable. And one could argue to $10 billion is too conservative. Indeed, Snowflake CFO, Mike Scarpelli will fully admit his forecaster built on existing offerings. He's not including revenue as I understand it from all the new stuff that's in the pipeline because he doesn't know what it's going to look like. He doesn't know what the adoption is going to look like. He doesn't have data on that adoption, not just yet anyway. And now of course things can change quite dramatically. It's possible that is forecast for existing businesses don't materialize or competition picks them off or a company like Databricks actually is able in the longer term replicate the functionality of Snowflake with open source technologies, which would be a very competitive source of innovation. But in our view, there's plenty of room for growth, the market is enormous and the real key is, can and will Snowflake deliver on the promises of simplifying data? Of course we've heard this before from data warehouse, the data mars and data legs and master data management and ETLs and data movers and data copiers and Hadoop and a raft of technologies that have not lived up to expectations. And we've also, by the way, seen some tremendous successes in the software business with the likes of ServiceNow and Salesforce. So will Snowflake be the next great software name and hit that 10 billion magic mark? I think so. Let's reconnect in 2028 and see. Okay, we'll leave it there today. I want to thank Chip Simonton for his input to today's episode. Thanks to Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast. Ken Schiffman as well. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hove is our Editor in Chief over at Silicon Angle. He does some great editing for us. Check it out for all the news. Remember all these episodes are available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Or you can email me to get in touch David.vallante@siliconangle.com. DM me @dvellante or comment on our LinkedIn post. And please do check out etr.ai, they've got the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for the CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on breaking analysis. (upbeat music)

(energetic music) >> Okay, we're back with Justin Borgman, CEO of Starburst, Richard Jarvis is the CTO of EMIS Health, and Teresa Tung is the cloud first technologist from Accenture. We're on to lie number three. And that is the claim that today's "Modern Data Stack" is actually modern. So (chuckles), I guess that's the lie. Or, is that it's not modern. Justin, what do you say? >> Yeah, I think new isn't modern. Right? I think it's the new data stack. It's the cloud data stack, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's modern. I think a lot of the components actually, are exactly the same as what we've had for 40 years. Rather than Teradata, you have Snowflake. Rather than Informatica, you have Fivetran. So, it's the same general stack, just, y'know, a cloud version of it. And I think a lot of the challenges that have plagued us for 40 years still maintain. >> So, let me come back to you Justin. Okay, but there are differences, right? You can scale. You can throw resources at the problem. You can separate compute from storage. You really, there's a lot of money being thrown at that by venture capitalists, and Snowflake you mentioned, its competitors. So that's different. Is it not? Is that not at least an aspect of modern dial it up, dial it down? So what do you say to that? >> Well, it is. It's certainly taking, y'know what the cloud offers and taking advantage of that. But it's important to note that the cloud data warehouses out there are really just separating their compute from their storage. So it's allowing them to scale up and down, but your data's still stored in a proprietary format. You're still locked in. You still have to ingest the data to get it even prepared for analysis. So a lot of the same structural constraints that exist with the old enterprise data warehouse model on-preem still exist. Just yes, a little bit more elastic now because the cloud offers that. >> So Teresa, let me go to you, 'cause you have cloud-first in your title. So, what's say you to this conversation? >> Well, even the cloud providers are looking towards more of a cloud continuum, right? So the centralized cloud as we know it, maybe data lake, data warehouse in the central place, that's not even how the cloud providers are looking at it. They have use query services. Every provider has one that really expands those queries to be beyond a single location. And if we look at a lot of where our- the future goes, right? That's going to very much fall the same thing. There was going to be more edge. There's going to be more on-premise, because of data sovereignty, data gravity, because you're working with different parts of the business that have already made major cloud investments in different cloud providers, right? So, there's a lot of reasons why the modern, I guess, the next modern generation of the data stack needs to be much more federated. >> Okay, so Richard, how do you deal with this? You've obviously got, you know, the technical debt, the existing infrastructure, it's on the books. You don't want to just throw it out. A lot of conversation about modernizing applications, which a lot of times is, you know, of microservices layer on top of legacy apps. How do you think about the Modern Data Stack? >> Well, I think probably the first thing to say is that the stack really has to include the processes and people around the data as well is all well and good changing the technology. But if you don't modernize how people use that technology, then you're not going to be able to, to scale because just 'cause you can scale CPU and storage doesn't mean you can get more people to use your data to generate you more value for the business. And so what we've been looking at is really changing in very much aligned to data products and, and data mesh. How do you enable more people to consume the service and have the stack respond in a way that keeps costs low? Because that's important for our customers consuming this data but also allows people to occasionally run enormous queries and then tick along with smaller ones when required. And it's a good job we did because during COVID all of a sudden we had enormous pressures on our data platform to answer really important life threatening queries. And if we couldn't scale both our data stack and our teams we wouldn't have been able to answer those as quickly as we had. So I think the stack needs to support a scalable business not just the technology itself. >> Well thank you for that. So Justin let's, let's try to break down what the critical aspects are of the modern data stack. So you think about the past, you know, five seven years cloud obviously has given a different pricing model. Derisked experimentation, you know that we talked about the ability to scale up scale down, but it's, I'm taking away that that's not enough. Based on what Richard just said, the modern data stack has to serve the business and enable the business to build data products. I buy that. I'm you a big fan of the data mesh concepts, even though we're early days. So what are the critical aspects if you had to think about you know, the, maybe putting some guardrails and definitions around the modern data stack, what does that look like? What are some of the attributes and, and principles there >> Of how it should look like or, or how >> Yeah. What it should be? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, in, in Theresa mentioned this in in a previous segment about the data warehouse is not necessarily going to disappear. It just becomes one node, one element of the overall data mesh. And I certainly agree with that. So by no means, are we suggesting that, you know Snowflake or what Redshift or whatever cloud data warehouse you may be using is going to disappear, but it's it's not going to become the end all be all. It's not the, the central single source of truth. And I think that's the paradigm shift that needs to occur. And I think it's also worth noting that those who were the early adopters of the modern data stack were primarily digital, native born in the cloud young companies who had the benefit of of idealism. They had the benefit of starting with a clean slate that does not reflect the vast majority of enterprises. And even those companies, as they grow up, mature out of that ideal state, they go by a business. Now they've got something on another cloud provider that has a different data stack and they have to deal with that heterogeneity that is just change and change is a part of life. And so I think there is an element here that is almost philosophical. It's like, do you believe in an absolute ideal where I can just fit everything into one place or do I believe in reality? And I think the far more pragmatic approach is really what data mesh represents. So to answer your question directly, I think it's adding you know, the ability to access data that lives outside of the data warehouse, maybe living in open data formats in a data lake or accessing operational systems as well. Maybe you want to directly access data that lives in an Oracle database or a Mongo database or, or what have you. So creating that flexibility to really future proof yourself from the inevitable change that you will you won't encounter over time. >> So thank you. So Theresa, based on what Justin just said, I I might take away there is it's inclusive whether it's a data mart, data hub, data lake, data warehouse, just a node on the mesh. Okay. I get that. Does that include Theresa on, on Preem data? Obviously it has to. What are you seeing in terms of the ability to, to take that data mesh concept on Preem I mean most implementations I've seen and data mesh, frankly really aren't, you know adhering to the philosophy there. Maybe, maybe it's data lake and maybe it's using glue. You look at what JPMC is doing, HelloFresh, a lot of stuff happening on the AWS cloud in that, you know, closed stack, if you will. What's the answer to that Theresa? >> I mean, I think it's a killer case for data mesh. The fact that you have valuable data sources on Preem, and then yet you still want to modernize and take the best of cloud. Cloud is still, like we mentioned, there's a lot of great reasons for it around the economics and the way ability to tap into the innovation that the cloud providers are giving around data and AI architecture. It's an easy button. So the mesh allows you to have the best of both world. You can start using the data products on Preem, or in the existing systems that are working already. It's meaningful for the business. At the same time, you can modernize the ones that make business sense because it needs better performance. It needs, you know, something that is, is cheaper or or maybe just tapping into better analytics to get better insights, right? So you're going to be able to stretch and really have the best of both worlds. That, again, going back to Richard's point, that is meaningful by the business. Not everything has to have that one size fits all set a tool. >> Okay. Thank you. So Richard, you know, talking about data as product wonder if we could give us your perspectives here what are the advantages of treating data as a product? What, what role do data products have in the modern data stack? We talk about monetizing data. What are your thoughts on data products? >> So for us, one of the most important data products that we've been creating is taking data that is healthcare data across a wide variety of different settings. So information about patients, demographics about their their treatment, about their medications and so on, and taking that into a standards format that can be utilized by a wide variety of different researchers because misinterpreting that data or having the data not presented in the way that the user is expecting means that you generate the wrong insight and in any business that's clearly not a desirable outcome but when that insight is so critical as it might be in healthcare or some security settings you really have to have gone to the trouble of understanding the data, presenting it in a format that everyone can clearly agree on. And then letting people consume in a very structured managed way, even if that data comes from a variety of different sources in the first place. And so our data product journey has really begun by standardizing data across a number of different silos through the data mesh. So we can present out both internally and through the right governance externally to, to researchers. >> So that data product through whatever APIs is is accessible, it's discoverable, but it's obviously got to be governed as well. You mentioned appropriately provided to internally. >> Yeah. >> But also, you know, external folks as well. So the, so you've, you've architected that capability today? >> We have and because the data is standard it can generate value much more quickly and we can be sure of the security and value that that's providing, because the data product isn't just about formatting the data into the correct tables, it's understanding what it means to redact the data or to remove certain rows from it or to interpret what a date actually means. Is it the start of the contract or the start of the treatment or the date of birth of a patient? These things can be lost in the data storage without having the proper product management around the data to say in a very clear business context what does this data mean, and what does it mean to process this data for a particular use case. >> Yeah, it makes sense. It's got the context. If the, if the domains on the data, you know you got to cut through a lot of the, the centralized teams, the technical teams that that data agnostic, they don't really have that context. All right, let's end. Justin. How does Starburst fit into this modern data stack? Bring us home. >> Yeah. So I think for us it's really providing our customers with, you know the flexibility to operate and analyze data that lives in a wide variety of different systems. Ultimately giving them that optionality, you know and optionality provides the ability to reduce costs store more in a data lake rather than data warehouse. It provides the ability for the fastest time to insight to access the data directly where it lives. And ultimately with this concept of data products that we've now, you know incorporated into our offering as well you can really create and, and curate, you know data as a product to be shared and consumed. So we're trying to help enable the data mesh, you know model and make that an appropriate compliment to you know, the modern data stack that people have today. >> Excellent. Hey, I want to thank Justin, Teresa, and Richard for joining us today. You guys are great. Big believers in the in the data mesh concept, and I think, you know we're seeing the future of data architecture. So thank you. Now, remember, all these conversations are going to be available on the cube.net for on demand viewing. You can also go to starburst.io. They have some great content on the website and they host some really thought provoking interviews and they have awesome resources. Lots of data mesh conversations over there and really good stuff in, in the resource section. So check that out. Thanks for watching the "Data Doesn't Lie... or Does It?" made possible by Starburst data. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>We're back with Jess Borgman of Starburst and Richard Jarvis of EVAs health. Okay. We're gonna get into lie. Number two, and that is this an open source based platform cannot give you the performance and control that you can get with a proprietary system. Is that a lie? Justin, the enterprise data warehouse has been pretty dominant and has evolved and matured. Its stack has mature over the years. Why is it not the default platform for data? >>Yeah, well, I think that's become a lie over time. So I, I think, you know, if we go back 10 or 12 years ago with the advent of the first data lake really around Hudu, that probably was true that you couldn't get the performance that you needed to run fast, interactive, SQL queries in a data lake. Now a lot's changed in 10 or 12 years. I remember in the very early days, people would say, you'll, you'll never get performance because you need to be column. You need to store data in a column format. And then, you know, column formats were introduced to, to data lake. You have Parque ORC file in aro that were created to ultimately deliver performance out of that. So, okay. We got, you know, largely over the performance hurdle, you know, more recently people will say, well, you don't have the ability to do updates and deletes like a traditional data warehouse. >>And now we've got the creation of new data formats, again, like iceberg and Delta and hoote that do allow for updates and delete. So I think the data lake has continued to mature. And I remember a quote from, you know, Kurt Monash many years ago where he said, you know, it takes six or seven years to build a functional database. I think that's that's right. And now we've had almost a decade go by. So, you know, these technologies have matured to really deliver very, very close to the same level performance and functionality of, of cloud data warehouses. So I think the, the reality is that's become a lie and now we have large giant hyperscale internet companies that, you know, don't have the traditional data warehouse at all. They do all of their analytics in a data lake. So I think we've, we've proven that it's very much possible today. >>Thank you for that. And so Richard, talk about your perspective as a practitioner in terms of what open brings you versus, I mean, the clothes is it's open as a moving target. I remember Unix used to be open systems and so it's, it is an evolving, you know, spectrum, but, but from your perspective, what does open give you that you can't get from a proprietary system where you are fearful of in a proprietary system? >>I, I suppose for me open buys us the ability to be unsure about the future, because one thing that's always true about technology is it evolves in a, a direction, slightly different to what people expect and what you don't want to end up done is backed itself into a corner that then prevents it from innovating. So if you have chosen the technology and you've stored trillions of records in that technology and suddenly a new way of processing or machine learning comes out, you wanna be able to take advantage your competitive edge might depend upon it. And so I suppose for us, we acknowledge that we don't have perfect vision of what the future might be. And so by backing open storage technologies, we can apply a number of different technologies to the processing of that data. And that gives us the ability to remain relevant, innovate on our data storage. And we have bought our way out of the, any performance concerns because we can use cloud scale infrastructure to scale up and scale down as we need. And so we don't have the concerns that we don't have enough hardware today to process what we want to do, want to achieve. We can just scale up when we need it and scale back down. So open source has really allowed us to maintain the being at the cutting edge. >>So Jess, let me play devil's advocate here a little bit, and I've talked to JAK about this and you know, obviously her vision is there's an open source that, that data mesh is open source, an open source tooling, and it's not a proprietary, you know, you're not gonna buy a data mesh. You're gonna build it with, with open source toolings and, and vendors like you are gonna support it, but come back to sort of today, you can get to market with a proprietary solution faster. I'm gonna make that statement. You tell me if it's a lie and then you can say, okay, we support Apache iceberg. We're gonna support open source tooling, take a company like VMware, not really in the data business, but how, the way they embraced Kubernetes and, and you know, every new open source thing that comes along, they say, we do that too. Why can't proprietary systems do that and be as effective? >>Yeah, well I think at least with the, within the data landscape saying that you can access open data formats like iceberg or, or others is, is a bit dis disingenuous because really what you're selling to your customer is a certain degree of performance, a certain SLA, and you know, those cloud data warehouses that can reach beyond their own proprietary storage drop all the performance that they were able to provide. So it is, it reminds me kind of, of, again, going back 10 or 12 years ago when everybody had a connector to hit and that they thought that was the solution, right? But the reality was, you know, a connector was not the same as running workloads in hit back then. And I think similarly, you know, being able to connect to an external table that lives in an open data format, you know, you're, you're not going to give it the performance that your customers are accustomed to. And at the end of the day, they're always going to be predisposed. They're always going to be incentivized to get that data ingested into the data warehouse, cuz that's where they have control. And you know, the bottom line is the database industry has really been built around vendor lockin. I mean, from the start, how, how many people love Oracle today, but our customers, nonetheless, I think, you know, lockin is, is, is part of this industry. And I think that's really what we're trying to change with open data formats. >>Well, it's interesting remind of when I, you know, I see the, the gas price, the TSR gas price I, I drive up and then I say, oh, that's the cash price credit card. I gotta pay 20 cents more, but okay. But so the, the argument then, so let me, let me come back to you, Justin. So what's wrong with saying, Hey, we support open data formats, but yeah, you're gonna get better performance if you, if you, you keep it into our closed system, are you saying that long term that's gonna come back and bite you cuz you're gonna end up, you mentioned Oracle, you mentioned Teradata. Yeah. That's by, by implication, you're saying that's where snowflake customers are headed. >>Yeah, absolutely. I think this is a movie that, you know, we've all seen before. At least those of us who've been in the industry long enough to, to see this movie play over a couple times. So I do think that's the future. And I think, you know, I loved what Richard said. I actually wrote it down. Cause I thought it was an amazing quote. He said, it buys us the ability to be unsure of the future. That that pretty much says it all the, the future is unknowable and the reality is using open data formats. You remain interoperable with any technology you want to utilize. If you want to use spark to train a machine learning model and you wanna use Starbust to query via sequel, that's totally cool. They can both work off the same exact, you know, data, data sets by contrast, if you're, you know, focused on a proprietary model, then you're kind of locked in again to that model. I think the same applies to data, sharing to data products, to a wide variety of, of aspects of the data landscape that a proprietary approach kind of closes you and, and locks you in. >>So I, I would say this Richard, I'd love to get your thoughts on it. Cause I talked to a lot of Oracle customers, not as many te data customers there, but, but a lot of Oracle customers and they, you know, they'll admit yeah, you know, the Jammin us on price and the license cost, but we do get value out of it. And so my question to you, Richard, is, is do the, let's call it data warehouse systems or the proprietary systems. Are they gonna deliver a greater ROI sooner? And is that in allure of, of that customers, you know, are attracted to, or can open platforms deliver as fast an ROI? >>I think the answer to that is it can depend a bit. It depends on your business's skillset. So we are lucky that we have a number of proprietary teams that work in databases that provide our operational data capability. And we have teams of analytics and big data experts who can work with open data sets and open data formats. And so for those different teams, they can get to an ROI more quickly with different technologies for the business though, we can't do better for our operational data stores than proprietary databases. Today we can back off very tight SLAs to them. We can demonstrate reliability from millions of hours of those databases being run at enterprise scale, but for an analytics workload where increasing our business is growing in that direction, we can't do better than open data formats with cloud-based data mesh type technologies. And so it's not a simple answer. That one will always be the right answer for our business. We definitely have times when proprietary databases provide a capability that we couldn't easily represent or replicate with open technologies. >>Yeah. Richard, stay with you. You mentioned, you know, you know, some things before that, that strike me, you know, the data brick snowflake, you know, thing is always a lot of fun for analysts like me. You've got data bricks coming at it. Richard, you mentioned you have a lot of rockstar, data engineers, data bricks coming at it from a data engineering heritage. You get snowflake coming at it from an analytics heritage. Those two worlds are, are colliding people like PJI Mohan said, you know what? I think it's actually harder to play in the data engineering. So IE, it's easier to for data engineering world to go into the analytics world versus the reverse, but thinking about up and coming engineers and developers preparing for this future of data engineering and data analytics, how, how should they be thinking about the future? What, what's your advice to those young people? >>So I think I'd probably fall back on general programming skill sets. So the advice that I saw years ago was if you have open source technologies, the pythons and Javas on your CV, you command a 20% pay, hike over people who can only do proprietary programming languages. And I think that's true of data technologies as well. And from a business point of view, that makes sense. I'd rather spend the money that I save on proprietary licenses on better engineers, because they can provide more value to the business that can innovate us beyond our competitors. So I think I would my advice to people who are starting here or trying to build teams to capitalize on data assets is begin with open license, free capabilities because they're very cheap to experiment with. And they generate a lot of interest from people who want to join you as a business. And you can make them very successful early, early doors with, with your analytics journey. >>It's interesting. Again, analysts like myself, we do a lot of TCO work and have over the last 20 plus years and in the world of Oracle, you know, normally it's the staff, that's the biggest nut in total cost of ownership, not an Oracle. It's the it's the license cost is by far the biggest component in the, in the blame pie. All right, Justin, help us close out this segment. We've been talking about this sort of data mesh open, closed snowflake data bricks. Where does Starburst sort of as this engine for the data lake data lake house, the data warehouse, it, it fit in this, in this world. >>Yeah. So our view on how the future ultimately unfolds is we think that data lakes will be a natural center of gravity for a lot of the reasons that we described open data formats, lowest total cost of ownership, because you get to choose the cheapest storage available to you. Maybe that's S3 or Azure data lake storage or Google cloud storage, or maybe it's on-prem object storage that you bought at a, at a really good price. So ultimately storing a lot of data in a data lake makes a lot of sense, but I think what makes our perspective unique is we still don't think you're gonna get everything there either. We think that basically centralization of all your data assets is just an impossible endeavor. And so you wanna be able to access data that lives outside of the lake as well. So we kind of think of the lake as maybe the biggest place by volume in terms of how much data you have, but to, to have comprehensive analytics and to truly understand your business and understanding holistically, you need to be able to go access other data sources as well. And so that's the role that we wanna play is to be a single point of access for our customers, provide the right level of fine grained access controls so that the right people have access to the right data and ultimately make it easy to discover and consume via, you know, the creation of data products as well. >>Great. Okay. Thanks guys. Right after this quick break, we're gonna be back to debate whether the cloud data model that we see emerging and the so-called modern data stack is really modern or is it the same wine new bottle when it comes to data architectures, you're watching the cube, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

(bright upbeat music) >> In 2011, early Facebook employee and Cloudera co-founder Jeff Hammerbacher famously said, "The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to get people to click on ads, and that sucks!" Let's face it. More than a decade later, organizations continue to be frustrated with how difficult it is to get value from data and build a truly agile and data-driven enterprise. What does that even mean, you ask? Well, it means that everyone in the organization has the data they need when they need it in a context that's relevant to advance the mission of an organization. Now, that could mean cutting costs, could mean increasing profits, driving productivity, saving lives, accelerating drug discovery, making better diagnoses, solving supply chain problems, predicting weather disasters, simplifying processes, and thousands of other examples where data can completely transform people's lives beyond manipulating internet users to behave a certain way. We've heard the prognostications about the possibilities of data before and in fairness we've made progress, but the hard truth is the original promises of master data management, enterprise data warehouses, data marts, data hubs, and yes even data lakes were broken and left us wanting for more. Welcome to The Data Doesn't Lie... Or Does It? A series of conversations produced by theCUBE and made possible by Starburst Data. I'm your host, Dave Vellante, and joining me today are three industry experts. Justin Borgman is the co-founder and CEO of Starburst, Richard Jarvis is the CTO at EMIS Health, and Teresa Tung is cloud first technologist at Accenture. Today, we're going to have a candid discussion that will expose the unfulfilled, and yes, broken promises of a data past. We'll expose data lies: big lies, little lies, white lies, and hidden truths. And we'll challenge, age old data conventions and bust some data myths. We're debating questions like is the demise of a single source of truth inevitable? Will the data warehouse ever have feature parity with the data lake or vice versa? Is the so-called modern data stack simply centralization in the cloud, AKA the old guards model in new cloud close? How can organizations rethink their data architectures and regimes to realize the true promises of data? Can and will an open ecosystem deliver on these promises in our lifetimes? We're spanning much of the Western world today. Richard is in the UK, Teresa is on the West Coast, and Justin is in Massachusetts with me. I'm in theCUBE studios, about 30 miles outside of Boston. Folks, welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having us. >> Okay, let's get right into it. You're very welcome. Now, here's the first lie. The most effective data architecture is one that is centralized with a team of data specialists serving various lines of business. What do you think Justin? >> Yeah, definitely a lie. My first startup was a company called Hadapt, which was an early SQL engine for IDU that was acquired by Teradata. And when I got to Teradata, of course, Teradata is the pioneer of that central enterprise data warehouse model. One of the things that I found fascinating was that not one of their customers had actually lived up to that vision of centralizing all of their data into one place. They all had data silos. They all had data in different systems. They had data on prem, data in the cloud. Those companies were acquiring other companies and inheriting their data architecture. So despite being the industry leader for 40 years, not one of their customers truly had everything in one place. So I think definitely history has proven that to be a lie. >> So Richard, from a practitioner's point of view, what are your thoughts? I mean, there's a lot of pressure to cut cost, keep things centralized, serve the business as best as possible from that standpoint. What does your experience show? >> Yeah, I mean, I think I would echo Justin's experience really that we as a business have grown up through acquisition, through storing data in different places sometimes to do information governance in different ways to store data in a platform that's close to data experts people who really understand healthcare data from pharmacies or from doctors. And so, although if you were starting from a greenfield site and you were building something brand new, you might be able to centralize all the data and all of the tooling and teams in one place. The reality is that businesses just don't grow up like that. And it's just really impossible to get that academic perfection of storing everything in one place. >> Teresa, I feel like Sarbanes-Oxley have kind of saved the data warehouse, right? (laughs) You actually did have to have a single version of the truth for certain financial data, but really for some of those other use cases I mentioned, I do feel like the industry has kind of let us down. What's your take on this? Where does it make sense to have that sort of centralized approach versus where does it make sense to maybe decentralize? >> I think you got to have centralized governance, right? So from the central team, for things like Sarbanes-Oxley, for things like security, for certain very core data sets having a centralized set of roles, responsibilities to really QA, right? To serve as a design authority for your entire data estate, just like you might with security, but how it's implemented has to be distributed. Otherwise, you're not going to be able to scale, right? So being able to have different parts of the business really make the right data investments for their needs. And then ultimately, you're going to collaborate with your partners. So partners that are not within the company, right? External partners. We're going to see a lot more data sharing and model creation. And so you're definitely going to be decentralized. >> So Justin, you guys last, jeez, I think it was about a year ago, had a session on data mesh. It was a great program. You invited Zhamak Dehghani. Of course, she's the creator of the data mesh. One of our fundamental premises is that you've got this hyper specialized team that you've got to go through if you want anything. But at the same time, these individuals actually become a bottleneck, even though they're some of the most talented people in the organization. So I guess, a question for you Richard. How do you deal with that? Do you organize so that there are a few sort of rock stars that build cubes and the like or have you had any success in sort of decentralizing with your constituencies that data model? >> Yeah. So we absolutely have got rockstar data scientists and data guardians, if you like. People who understand what it means to use this data, particularly the data that we use at EMIS is very private, it's healthcare information. And some of the rules and regulations around using the data are very complex and strict. So we have to have people who understand the usage of the data, then people who understand how to build models, how to process the data effectively. And you can think of them like consultants to the wider business because a pharmacist might not understand how to structure a SQL query, but they do understand how they want to process medication information to improve patient lives. And so that becomes a consulting type experience from a set of rock stars to help a more decentralized business who needs to understand the data and to generate some valuable output. >> Justin, what do you say to a customer or prospect that says, "Look, Justin. I got a centralized team and that's the most cost effective way to serve the business. Otherwise, I got duplication." What do you say to that? >> Well, I would argue it's probably not the most cost effective, and the reason being really twofold. I think, first of all, when you are deploying a enterprise data warehouse model, the data warehouse itself is very expensive, generally speaking. And so you're putting all of your most valuable data in the hands of one vendor who now has tremendous leverage over you for many, many years to come. I think that's the story at Oracle or Teradata or other proprietary database systems. But the other aspect I think is that the reality is those central data warehouse teams, as much as they are experts in the technology, they don't necessarily understand the data itself. And this is one of the core tenets of data mesh that Zhamak writes about is this idea of the domain owners actually know the data the best. And so by not only acknowledging that data is generally decentralized, and to your earlier point about Sarbanes-Oxley, maybe saving the data warehouse, I would argue maybe GDPR and data sovereignty will destroy it because data has to be decentralized for those laws to be compliant. But I think the reality is the data mesh model basically says data's decentralized and we're going to turn that into an asset rather than a liability. And we're going to turn that into an asset by empowering the people that know the data the best to participate in the process of curating and creating data products for consumption. So I think when you think about it that way, you're going to get higher quality data and faster time to insight, which is ultimately going to drive more revenue for your business and reduce costs. So I think that that's the way I see the two models comparing and contrasting. >> So do you think the demise of the data warehouse is inevitable? Teresa, you work with a lot of clients. They're not just going to rip and replace their existing infrastructure. Maybe they're going to build on top of it, but what does that mean? Does that mean the EDW just becomes less and less valuable over time or it's maybe just isolated to specific use cases? What's your take on that? >> Listen, I still would love all my data within a data warehouse. I would love it mastered, would love it owned by a central team, right? I think that's still what I would love to have. That's just not the reality, right? The investment to actually migrate and keep that up to date, I would say it's a losing battle. Like we've been trying to do it for a long time. Nobody has the budgets and then data changes, right? There's going to be a new technology that's going to emerge that we're going to want to tap into. There's going to be not enough investment to bring all the legacy, but still very useful systems into that centralized view. So you keep the data warehouse. I think it's a very, very valuable, very high performance tool for what it's there for, but you could have this new mesh layer that still takes advantage of the things I mentioned: the data products in the systems that are meaningful today, and the data products that actually might span a number of systems. Maybe either those that either source systems with the domains that know it best, or the consumer-based systems or products that need to be packaged in a way that'd be really meaningful for that end user, right? Each of those are useful for a different part of the business and making sure that the mesh actually allows you to use all of them. >> So, Richard, let me ask you. Take Zhamak's principles back to those. You got the domain ownership and data as product. Okay, great. Sounds good. But it creates what I would argue are two challenges: self-serve infrastructure, let's park that for a second, and then in your industry, one of the most regulated, most sensitive, computational governance. How do you automate and ensure federated governance in that mesh model that Teresa was just talking about? >> Well, it absolutely depends on some of the tooling and processes that you put in place around those tools to centralize the security and the governance of the data. And I think although a data warehouse makes that very simple 'cause it's a single tool, it's not impossible with some of the data mesh technologies that are available. And so what we've done at EMIS is we have a single security layer that sits on top of our data mesh, which means that no matter which user is accessing which data source, we go through a well audited, well understood security layer. That means that we know exactly who's got access to which data field, which data tables. And then everything that they do is audited in a very kind of standard way regardless of the underlying data storage technology. So for me, although storing the data in one place might not be possible, understanding where your source of truth is and securing that in a common way is still a valuable approach, and you can do it without having to bring all that data into a single bucket so that it's all in one place. And so having done that and investing quite heavily in making that possible has paid dividends in terms of giving wider access to the platform, and ensuring that only data that's available under GDPR and other regulations is being used by the data users. >> Yeah. So Justin, we always talk about data democratization, and up until recently, they really haven't been line of sight as to how to get there, but do you have anything to add to this because you're essentially doing analytic queries with data that's all dispersed all over. How are you seeing your customers handle this challenge? >> Yeah, I mean, I think data products is a really interesting aspect of the answer to that. It allows you to, again, leverage the data domain owners, the people who know the data the best, to create data as a product ultimately to be consumed. And we try to represent that in our product as effectively, almost eCommerce like experience where you go and discover and look for the data products that have been created in your organization, and then you can start to consume them as you'd like. And so really trying to build on that notion of data democratization and self-service, and making it very easy to discover and start to use with whatever BI tool you may like or even just running SQL queries yourself. >> Okay guys, grab a sip of water. After the short break, we'll be back to debate whether proprietary or open platforms are the best path to the future of data excellence. Keep it right there. (bright upbeat music)

>>In 2011, early Facebook employee and Cloudera co-founder Jeff Ocker famously said the best minds of my generation are thinking about how to get people to click on ads. And that sucks. Let's face it more than a decade later organizations continue to be frustrated with how difficult it is to get value from data and build a truly agile data-driven enterprise. What does that even mean? You ask? Well, it means that everyone in the organization has the data they need when they need it. In a context that's relevant to advance the mission of an organization. Now that could mean cutting cost could mean increasing profits, driving productivity, saving lives, accelerating drug discovery, making better diagnoses, solving, supply chain problems, predicting weather disasters, simplifying processes, and thousands of other examples where data can completely transform people's lives beyond manipulating internet users to behave a certain way. We've heard the prognostications about the possibilities of data before and in fairness we've made progress, but the hard truth is the original promises of master data management, enterprise data, warehouses, data marts, data hubs, and yes, even data lakes were broken and left us wanting from more welcome to the data doesn't lie, or doesn't a series of conversations produced by the cube and made possible by Starburst data. >>I'm your host, Dave Lanta and joining me today are three industry experts. Justin Borgman is this co-founder and CEO of Starburst. Richard Jarvis is the CTO at EMI health and Theresa tongue is cloud first technologist at Accenture. Today we're gonna have a candid discussion that will expose the unfulfilled and yes, broken promises of a data past we'll expose data lies, big lies, little lies, white lies, and hidden truths. And we'll challenge, age old data conventions and bust some data myths. We're debating questions like is the demise of a single source of truth. Inevitable will the data warehouse ever have featured parody with the data lake or vice versa is the so-called modern data stack, simply centralization in the cloud, AKA the old guards model in new cloud close. How can organizations rethink their data architectures and regimes to realize the true promises of data can and will and open ecosystem deliver on these promises in our lifetimes, we're spanning much of the Western world today. Richard is in the UK. Teresa is on the west coast and Justin is in Massachusetts with me. I'm in the cube studios about 30 miles outside of Boston folks. Welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having us. Let's get right into it. You're very welcome. Now here's the first lie. The most effective data architecture is one that is centralized with a team of data specialists serving various lines of business. What do you think Justin? >>Yeah, definitely a lie. My first startup was a company called hit adapt, which was an early SQL engine for hit that was acquired by Teradata. And when I got to Teradata, of course, Teradata is the pioneer of that central enterprise data warehouse model. One of the things that I found fascinating was that not one of their customers had actually lived up to that vision of centralizing all of their data into one place. They all had data silos. They all had data in different systems. They had data on prem data in the cloud. You know, those companies were acquiring other companies and inheriting their data architecture. So, you know, despite being the industry leader for 40 years, not one of their customers truly had everything in one place. So I think definitely history has proven that to be a lie. >>So Richard, from a practitioner's point of view, you know, what, what are your thoughts? I mean, there, there's a lot of pressure to cut cost, keep things centralized, you know, serve the business as best as possible from that standpoint. What, what is your experience show? >>Yeah, I mean, I think I would echo Justin's experience really that we, as a business have grown up through acquisition, through storing data in different places sometimes to do information governance in different ways to store data in, in a platform that's close to data experts, people who really understand healthcare data from pharmacies or from, from doctors. And so, although if you were starting from a Greenfield site and you were building something brand new, you might be able to centralize all the data and all of the tooling and teams in one place. The reality is that that businesses just don't grow up like that. And, and it's just really impossible to get that academic perfection of, of storing everything in one place. >>Y you know, Theresa, I feel like Sarbanes Oxley kinda saved the data warehouse, you know, right. You actually did have to have a single version of the truth for certain financial data, but really for those, some of those other use cases, I, I mentioned, I, I do feel like the industry has kinda let us down. What's your take on this? Where does it make sense to have that sort of centralized approach versus where does it make sense to maybe decentralized? >>I, I think you gotta have centralized governance, right? So from the central team, for things like star Oxley, for things like security for certainly very core data sets, having a centralized set of roles, responsibilities to really QA, right. To serve as a design authority for your entire data estate, just like you might with security, but how it's implemented has to be distributed. Otherwise you're not gonna be able to scale. Right? So being able to have different parts of the business really make the right data investments for their needs. And then ultimately you're gonna collaborate with your partners. So partners that are not within the company, right. External partners, we're gonna see a lot more data sharing and model creation. And so you're definitely going to be decentralized. >>So, you know, Justin, you guys last, geez, I think it was about a year ago, had a session on, on data mesh. It was a great program. You invited Jamma, Dani, of course, she's the creator of the data mesh. And her one of our fundamental premises is that you've got this hyper specialized team that you've gotta go through. And if you want anything, but at the same time, these, these individuals actually become a bottleneck, even though they're some of the most talented people in the organization. So I guess question for you, Richard, how do you deal with that? Do you, do you organize so that there are a few sort of rock stars that, that, you know, build cubes and, and the like, and, and, and, or have you had any success in sort of decentralizing with, you know, your, your constituencies, that data model? >>Yeah. So, so we absolutely have got rockstar, data scientists and data guardians. If you like people who understand what it means to use this data, particularly as the data that we use at emos is very private it's healthcare information. And some of the, the rules and regulations around using the data are very complex and, and strict. So we have to have people who understand the usage of the data, then people who understand how to build models, how to process the data effectively. And you can think of them like consultants to the wider business, because a pharmacist might not understand how to structure a SQL query, but they do understand how they want to process medication information to improve patient lives. And so that becomes a, a consulting type experience from a, a set of rock stars to help a, a more decentralized business who needs to, to understand the data and to generate some valuable output. >>Justin, what do you say to a, to a customer or prospect that says, look, Justin, I'm gonna, I got a centralized team and that's the most cost effective way to serve the business. Otherwise I got, I got duplication. What do you say to that? >>Well, I, I would argue it's probably not the most cost effective and, and the reason being really twofold. I think, first of all, when you are deploying a enterprise data warehouse model, the, the data warehouse itself is very expensive, generally speaking. And so you're putting all of your most valuable data in the hands of one vendor who now has tremendous leverage over you, you know, for many, many years to come. I think that's the story at Oracle or Terra data or other proprietary database systems. But the other aspect I think is that the reality is those central data warehouse teams is as much as they are experts in the technology. They don't necessarily understand the data itself. And this is one of the core tenants of data mash that that jam writes about is this idea of the domain owners actually know the data the best. >>And so by, you know, not only acknowledging that data is generally decentralized and to your earlier point about SAR, brain Oxley, maybe saving the data warehouse, I would argue maybe GDPR and data sovereignty will destroy it because data has to be decentralized for, for those laws to be compliant. But I think the reality is, you know, the data mesh model basically says, data's decentralized, and we're gonna turn that into an asset rather than a liability. And we're gonna turn that into an asset by empowering the people that know the data, the best to participate in the process of, you know, curating and creating data products for, for consumption. So I think when you think about it, that way, you're going to get higher quality data and faster time to insight, which is ultimately going to drive more revenue for your business and reduce costs. So I think that that's the way I see the two, the two models comparing and contrasting. >>So do you think the demise of the data warehouse is inevitable? I mean, I mean, you know, there Theresa you work with a lot of clients, they're not just gonna rip and replace their existing infrastructure. Maybe they're gonna build on top of it, but what does that mean? Does that mean the E D w just becomes, you know, less and less valuable over time, or it's maybe just isolated to specific use cases. What's your take on that? >>Listen, I still would love all my data within a data warehouse would love it. Mastered would love it owned by essential team. Right? I think that's still what I would love to have. That's just not the reality, right? The investment to actually migrate and keep that up to date. I would say it's a losing battle. Like we've been trying to do it for a long time. Nobody has the budgets and then data changes, right? There's gonna be a new technology. That's gonna emerge that we're gonna wanna tap into. There's going to be not enough investment to bring all the legacy, but still very useful systems into that centralized view. So you keep the data warehouse. I think it's a very, very valuable, very high performance tool for what it's there for, but you could have this, you know, new mesh layer that still takes advantage of the things. I mentioned, the data products in the systems that are meaningful today and the data products that actually might span a number of systems, maybe either those that either source systems for the domains that know it best, or the consumer based systems and products that need to be packaged in a way that be really meaningful for that end user, right? Each of those are useful for a different part of the business and making sure that the mesh actually allows you to use all of them. >>So, Richard, let me ask you, you take, take Gemma's principles back to those. You got to, you know, domain ownership and, and, and data as product. Okay, great. Sounds good. But it creates what I would argue are two, you know, challenges, self-serve infrastructure let's park that for a second. And then in your industry, the one of the high, most regulated, most sensitive computational governance, how do you automate and ensure federated governance in that mesh model that Theresa was just talking about? >>Well, it absolutely depends on some of the tooling and processes that you put in place around those tools to be, to centralize the security and the governance of the data. And I think, although a data warehouse makes that very simple, cause it's a single tool, it's not impossible with some of the data mesh technologies that are available. And so what we've done at emus is we have a single security layer that sits on top of our data match, which means that no matter which user is accessing, which data source, we go through a well audited well understood security layer. That means that we know exactly who's got access to which data field, which data tables. And then everything that they do is, is audited in a very kind of standard way, regardless of the underlying data storage technology. So for me, although storing the data in one place might not be possible understanding where your source of truth is and securing that in a common way is still a valuable approach and you can do it without having to bring all that data into a single bucket so that it's all in one place. And, and so having done that and investing quite heavily in making that possible has paid dividends in terms of giving wider access to the platform and ensuring that only data that's available under GDPR and other regulations is being used by, by the data users. >>Yeah. So Justin, I mean, Democrat, we always talk about data democratization and you know, up until recently, they really haven't been line of sight as to how to get there. But do you have anything to add to this because you're essentially taking, you know, do an analytic queries and with data that's all dispersed all over the, how are you seeing your customers handle this, this challenge? >>Yeah. I mean, I think data products is a really interesting aspect of the answer to that. It allows you to, again, leverage the data domain owners, people know the data, the best to, to create, you know, data as a product ultimately to be consumed. And we try to represent that in our product as effectively a almost eCommerce like experience where you go and discover and look for the data products that have been created in your organization. And then you can start to consume them as, as you'd like. And so really trying to build on that notion of, you know, data democratization and self-service, and making it very easy to discover and, and start to use with whatever BI tool you, you may like, or even just running, you know, SQL queries yourself, >>Okay. G guys grab a sip of water. After this short break, we'll be back to debate whether proprietary or open platforms are the best path to the future of data excellence, keep it right there. >>Your company has more data than ever, and more people trying to understand it, but there's a problem. Your data is stored across multiple systems. It's hard to access and that delays analytics and ultimately decisions. The old method of moving all of your data into a single source of truth is slow and definitely not built for the volume of data we have today or where we are headed while your data engineers spent over half their time, moving data, your analysts and data scientists are left, waiting, feeling frustrated, unproductive, and unable to move the needle for your business. But what if you could spend less time moving or copying data? What if your data consumers could analyze all your data quickly? >>Starburst helps your teams run fast queries on any data source. We help you create a single point of access to your data, no matter where it's stored. And we support high concurrency, we solve for speed and scale, whether it's fast, SQL queries on your data lake or faster queries across multiple data sets, Starburst helps your teams run analytics anywhere you can't afford to wait for data to be available. Your team has questions that need answers. Now with Starburst, the wait is over. You'll have faster access to data with enterprise level security, easy connectivity, and 24 7 support from experts, organizations like Zolando Comcast and FINRA rely on Starburst to move their businesses forward. Contact our Trino experts to get started. >>We're back with Jess Borgman of Starburst and Richard Jarvis of EVAs health. Okay, we're gonna get to lie. Number two, and that is this an open source based platform cannot give you the performance and control that you can get with a proprietary system. Is that a lie? Justin, the enterprise data warehouse has been pretty dominant and has evolved and matured. Its stack has mature over the years. Why is it not the default platform for data? >>Yeah, well, I think that's become a lie over time. So I, I think, you know, if we go back 10 or 12 years ago with the advent of the first data lake really around Hudu, that probably was true that you couldn't get the performance that you needed to run fast, interactive, SQL queries in a data lake. Now a lot's changed in 10 or 12 years. I remember in the very early days, people would say, you you'll never get performance because you need to be column there. You need to store data in a column format. And then, you know, column formats we're introduced to, to data apes, you have Parque ORC file in aro that were created to ultimately deliver performance out of that. So, okay. We got, you know, largely over the performance hurdle, you know, more recently people will say, well, you don't have the ability to do updates and deletes like a traditional data warehouse. >>And now we've got the creation of new data formats, again like iceberg and Delta and Hodi that do allow for updates and delete. So I think the data lake has continued to mature. And I remember a, a quote from, you know, Kurt Monash many years ago where he said, you know, know it takes six or seven years to build a functional database. I think that's that's right. And now we've had almost a decade go by. So, you know, these technologies have matured to really deliver very, very close to the same level performance and functionality of, of cloud data warehouses. So I think the, the reality is that's become a line and now we have large giant hyperscale internet companies that, you know, don't have the traditional data warehouse at all. They do all of their analytics in a data lake. So I think we've, we've proven that it's very much possible today. >>Thank you for that. And so Richard, talk about your perspective as a practitioner in terms of what open brings you versus, I mean, look closed is it's open as a moving target. I remember Unix used to be open systems and so it's, it is an evolving, you know, spectrum, but, but from your perspective, what does open give you that you can't get from a proprietary system where you are fearful of in a proprietary system? >>I, I suppose for me open buys us the ability to be unsure about the future, because one thing that's always true about technology is it evolves in a, a direction, slightly different to what people expect. And what you don't want to end up is done is backed itself into a corner that then prevents it from innovating. So if you have chosen a technology and you've stored trillions of records in that technology and suddenly a new way of processing or machine learning comes out, you wanna be able to take advantage and your competitive edge might depend upon it. And so I suppose for us, we acknowledge that we don't have perfect vision of what the future might be. And so by backing open storage technologies, we can apply a number of different technologies to the processing of that data. And that gives us the ability to remain relevant, innovate on our data storage. And we have bought our way out of the, any performance concerns because we can use cloud scale infrastructure to scale up and scale down as we need. And so we don't have the concerns that we don't have enough hardware today to process what we want to do, want to achieve. We can just scale up when we need it and scale back down. So open source has really allowed us to maintain the being at the cutting edge. >>So Jess, let me play devil's advocate here a little bit, and I've talked to Shaak about this and you know, obviously her vision is there's an open source that, that the data meshes open source, an open source tooling, and it's not a proprietary, you know, you're not gonna buy a data mesh. You're gonna build it with, with open source toolings and, and vendors like you are gonna support it, but to come back to sort of today, you can get to market with a proprietary solution faster. I'm gonna make that statement. You tell me if it's a lie and then you can say, okay, we support Apache iceberg. We're gonna support open source tooling, take a company like VMware, not really in the data business, but how, the way they embraced Kubernetes and, and you know, every new open source thing that comes along, they say, we do that too. Why can't proprietary systems do that and be as effective? >>Yeah, well, I think at least with the, within the data landscape saying that you can access open data formats like iceberg or, or others is, is a bit dis disingenuous because really what you're selling to your customer is a certain degree of performance, a certain SLA, and you know, those cloud data warehouses that can reach beyond their own proprietary storage drop all the performance that they were able to provide. So it is, it reminds me kind of, of, again, going back 10 or 12 years ago when everybody had a connector to Haddo and that they thought that was the solution, right? But the reality was, you know, a connector was not the same as running workloads in Haddo back then. And I think similarly, you know, being able to connect to an external table that lives in an open data format, you know, you're, you're not going to give it the performance that your customers are accustomed to. And at the end of the day, they're always going to be predisposed. They're always going to be incentivized to get that data ingested into the data warehouse, cuz that's where they have control. And you know, the bottom line is the database industry has really been built around vendor lockin. I mean, from the start, how, how many people love Oracle today, but our customers, nonetheless, I think, you know, lockin is, is, is part of this industry. And I think that's really what we're trying to change with open data formats. >>Well, that's interesting reminded when I, you know, I see the, the gas price, the tees or gas price I, I drive up and then I say, oh, that's the cash price credit card. I gotta pay 20 cents more, but okay. But so the, the argument then, so let me, let me come back to you, Justin. So what's wrong with saying, Hey, we support open data formats, but yeah, you're gonna get better performance if you, if you keep it into our closed system, are you saying that long term that's gonna come back and bite you cuz you're gonna end up, you mentioned Oracle, you mentioned Teradata. Yeah. That's by, by implication, you're saying that's where snowflake customers are headed. >>Yeah, absolutely. I think this is a movie that, you know, we've all seen before. At least those of us who've been in the industry long enough to, to see this movie play over a couple times. So I do think that's the future. And I think, you know, I loved what Richard said. I actually wrote it down. Cause I thought it was an amazing quote. He said, it buys us the ability to be unsure of the future. Th that that pretty much says it all the, the future is unknowable and the reality is using open data formats. You remain interoperable with any technology you want to utilize. If you want to use spark to train a machine learning model and you want to use Starbust to query via sequel, that's totally cool. They can both work off the same exact, you know, data, data sets by contrast, if you're, you know, focused on a proprietary model, then you're kind of locked in again to that model. I think the same applies to data, sharing to data products, to a wide variety of, of aspects of the data landscape that a proprietary approach kind of closes you in and locks you in. >>So I, I would say this Richard, I'd love to get your thoughts on it. Cause I talked to a lot of Oracle customers, not as many te data customers, but, but a lot of Oracle customers and they, you know, they'll admit, yeah, you know, they're jamming us on price and the license cost they give, but we do get value out of it. And so my question to you, Richard, is, is do the, let's call it data warehouse systems or the proprietary systems. Are they gonna deliver a greater ROI sooner? And is that in allure of, of that customers, you know, are attracted to, or can open platforms deliver as fast in ROI? >>I think the answer to that is it can depend a bit. It depends on your businesses skillset. So we are lucky that we have a number of proprietary teams that work in databases that provide our operational data capability. And we have teams of analytics and big data experts who can work with open data sets and open data formats. And so for those different teams, they can get to an ROI more quickly with different technologies for the business though, we can't do better for our operational data stores than proprietary databases. Today we can back off very tight SLAs to them. We can demonstrate reliability from millions of hours of those databases being run at enterprise scale, but for an analytics workload where increasing our business is growing in that direction, we can't do better than open data formats with cloud-based data mesh type technologies. And so it's not a simple answer. That one will always be the right answer for our business. We definitely have times when proprietary databases provide a capability that we couldn't easily represent or replicate with open technologies. >>Yeah. Richard, stay with you. You mentioned, you know, you know, some things before that, that strike me, you know, the data brick snowflake, you know, thing is, oh, is a lot of fun for analysts like me. You've got data bricks coming at it. Richard, you mentioned you have a lot of rockstar, data engineers, data bricks coming at it from a data engineering heritage. You get snowflake coming at it from an analytics heritage. Those two worlds are, are colliding people like PJI Mohan said, you know what? I think it's actually harder to play in the data engineering. So I E it's easier to for data engineering world to go into the analytics world versus the reverse, but thinking about up and coming engineers and developers preparing for this future of data engineering and data analytics, how, how should they be thinking about the future? What, what's your advice to those young people? >>So I think I'd probably fall back on general programming skill sets. So the advice that I saw years ago was if you have open source technologies, the pythons and Javas on your CV, you commander 20% pay, hike over people who can only do proprietary programming languages. And I think that's true of data technologies as well. And from a business point of view, that makes sense. I'd rather spend the money that I save on proprietary licenses on better engineers, because they can provide more value to the business that can innovate us beyond our competitors. So I think I would my advice to people who are starting here or trying to build teams to capitalize on data assets is begin with open license, free capabilities, because they're very cheap to experiment with. And they generate a lot of interest from people who want to join you as a business. And you can make them very successful early, early doors with, with your analytics journey. >>It's interesting. Again, analysts like myself, we do a lot of TCO work and have over the last 20 plus years. And in world of Oracle, you know, normally it's the staff, that's the biggest nut in total cost of ownership, not an Oracle. It's the it's the license cost is by far the biggest component in the, in the blame pie. All right, Justin, help us close out this segment. We've been talking about this sort of data mesh open, closed snowflake data bricks. Where does Starburst sort of as this engine for the data lake data lake house, the data warehouse fit in this, in this world? >>Yeah. So our view on how the future ultimately unfolds is we think that data lakes will be a natural center of gravity for a lot of the reasons that we described open data formats, lowest total cost of ownership, because you get to choose the cheapest storage available to you. Maybe that's S3 or Azure data lake storage, or Google cloud storage, or maybe it's on-prem object storage that you bought at a, at a really good price. So ultimately storing a lot of data in a deal lake makes a lot of sense, but I think what makes our perspective unique is we still don't think you're gonna get everything there either. We think that basically centralization of all your data assets is just an impossible endeavor. And so you wanna be able to access data that lives outside of the lake as well. So we kind of think of the lake as maybe the biggest place by volume in terms of how much data you have, but to, to have comprehensive analytics and to truly understand your business and understand it holistically, you need to be able to go access other data sources as well. And so that's the role that we wanna play is to be a single point of access for our customers, provide the right level of fine grained access controls so that the right people have access to the right data and ultimately make it easy to discover and consume via, you know, the creation of data products as well. >>Great. Okay. Thanks guys. Right after this quick break, we're gonna be back to debate whether the cloud data model that we see emerging and the so-called modern data stack is really modern, or is it the same wine new bottle? When it comes to data architectures, you're watching the cube, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. >>Your data is capable of producing incredible results, but data consumers are often left in the dark without fast access to the data they need. Starers makes your data visible from wherever it lives. Your company is acquiring more data in more places, more rapidly than ever to rely solely on a data centralization strategy. Whether it's in a lake or a warehouse is unrealistic. A single source of truth approach is no longer viable, but disconnected data silos are often left untapped. We need a new approach. One that embraces distributed data. One that enables fast and secure access to any of your data from anywhere with Starburst, you'll have the fastest query engine for the data lake that allows you to connect and analyze your disparate data sources no matter where they live Starburst provides the foundational technology required for you to build towards the vision of a decentralized data mesh Starburst enterprise and Starburst galaxy offer enterprise ready, connectivity, interoperability, and security features for multiple regions, multiple clouds and everchanging global regulatory requirements. The data is yours. And with Starburst, you can perform analytics anywhere in light of your world. >>Okay. We're back with Justin Boardman. CEO of Starbust Richard Jarvis is the CTO of EMI health and Theresa tongue is the cloud first technologist from Accenture. We're on July number three. And that is the claim that today's modern data stack is actually modern. So I guess that's the lie it's it is it's is that it's not modern. Justin, what do you say? >>Yeah. I mean, I think new isn't modern, right? I think it's the, it's the new data stack. It's the cloud data stack, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's modern. I think a lot of the components actually are exactly the same as what we've had for 40 years, rather than Terra data. You have snowflake rather than Informatica you have five trend. So it's the same general stack, just, you know, a cloud version of it. And I think a lot of the challenges that it plagued us for 40 years still maintain. >>So lemme come back to you just, but okay. But, but there are differences, right? I mean, you can scale, you can throw resources at the problem. You can separate compute from storage. You really, you know, there's a lot of money being thrown at that by venture capitalists and snowflake, you mentioned it's competitors. So that's different. Is it not, is that not at least an aspect of, of modern dial it up, dial it down. So what, what do you say to that? >>Well, it, it is, it's certainly taking, you know, what the cloud offers and taking advantage of that, but it's important to note that the cloud data warehouses out there are really just separating their compute from their storage. So it's allowing them to scale up and down, but your data still stored in a proprietary format. You're still locked in. You still have to ingest the data to get it even prepared for analysis. So a lot of the same sort of structural constraints that exist with the old enterprise data warehouse model OnPrem still exist just yes, a little bit more elastic now because the cloud offers that. >>So Theresa, let me go to you cuz you have cloud first in your, in your, your title. So what's what say you to this conversation? >>Well, even the cloud providers are looking towards more of a cloud continuum, right? So the centralized cloud, as we know it, maybe data lake data warehouse in the central place, that's not even how the cloud providers are looking at it. They have news query services. Every provider has one that really expands those queries to be beyond a single location. And if we look at a lot of where our, the future goes, right, that that's gonna very much fall the same thing. There was gonna be more edge. There's gonna be more on premise because of data sovereignty, data gravity, because you're working with different parts of the business that have already made major cloud investments in different cloud providers. Right? So there's a lot of reasons why the modern, I guess, the next modern generation of the data staff needs to be much more federated. >>Okay. So Richard, how do you deal with this? You you've obviously got, you know, the technical debt, the existing infrastructure it's on the books. You don't wanna just throw it out. A lot of, lot of conversation about modernizing applications, which a lot of times is a, you know, a microservices layer on top of leg legacy apps. How do you think about the modern data stack? >>Well, I think probably the first thing to say is that the stack really has to include the processes and people around the data as well is all well and good changing the technology. But if you don't modernize how people use that technology, then you're not going to be able to, to scale because just cuz you can scale CPU and storage doesn't mean you can get more people to use your data, to generate you more, more value for the business. And so what we've been looking at is really changing in very much aligned to data products and, and data mesh. How do you enable more people to consume the service and have the stack respond in a way that keeps costs low? Because that's important for our customers consuming this data, but also allows people to occasionally run enormous queries and then tick along with smaller ones when required. And it's a good job we did because during COVID all of a sudden we had enormous pressures on our data platform to answer really important life threatening queries. And if we couldn't scale both our data stack and our teams, we wouldn't have been able to answer those as quickly as we had. So I think the stack needs to support a scalable business, not just the technology itself. >>Well thank you for that. So Justin let's, let's try to break down what the critical aspects are of the modern data stack. So you think about the past, you know, five, seven years cloud obviously has given a different pricing model. De-risked experimentation, you know that we talked about the ability to scale up scale down, but it's, I'm, I'm taking away that that's not enough based on what Richard just said. The modern data stack has to serve the business and enable the business to build data products. I, I buy that. I'm a big fan of the data mesh concepts, even though we're early days. So what are the critical aspects if you had to think about, you know, paying, maybe putting some guardrails and definitions around the modern data stack, what does that look like? What are some of the attributes and, and principles there >>Of, of how it should look like or, or how >>It's yeah. What it should be. >>Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, in, in Theresa mentioned this in, in a previous segment about the data warehouse is not necessarily going to disappear. It just becomes one node, one element of the overall data mesh. And I, I certainly agree with that. So by no means, are we suggesting that, you know, snowflake or Redshift or whatever cloud data warehouse you may be using is going to disappear, but it's, it's not going to become the end all be all. It's not the, the central single source of truth. And I think that's the paradigm shift that needs to occur. And I think it's also worth noting that those who were the early adopters of the modern data stack were primarily digital, native born in the cloud young companies who had the benefit of, of idealism. They had the benefit of it was starting with a clean slate that does not reflect the vast majority of enterprises. >>And even those companies, as they grow up mature out of that ideal state, they go buy a business. Now they've got something on another cloud provider that has a different data stack and they have to deal with that heterogeneity that is just change and change is a part of life. And so I think there is an element here that is almost philosophical. It's like, do you believe in an absolute ideal where I can just fit everything into one place or do I believe in reality? And I think the far more pragmatic approach is really what data mesh represents. So to answer your question directly, I think it's adding, you know, the ability to access data that lives outside of the data warehouse, maybe living in open data formats in a data lake or accessing operational systems as well. Maybe you want to directly access data that lives in an Oracle database or a Mongo database or, or what have you. So creating that flexibility to really Futureproof yourself from the inevitable change that you will, you won't encounter over time. >>So thank you. So there, based on what Justin just said, I, my takeaway there is it's inclusive, whether it's a data Mar data hub, data lake data warehouse, it's a, just a node on the mesh. Okay. I get that. Does that include there on Preem data? O obviously it has to, what are you seeing in terms of the ability to, to take that data mesh concept on Preem? I mean, most implementations I've seen in data mesh, frankly really aren't, you know, adhering to the philosophy. They're maybe, maybe it's data lake and maybe it's using glue. You look at what JPMC is doing. Hello, fresh, a lot of stuff happening on the AWS cloud in that, you know, closed stack, if you will. What's the answer to that Theresa? >>I mean, I, I think it's a killer case for data. Me, the fact that you have valuable data sources, OnPrem, and then yet you still wanna modernize and take the best of cloud cloud is still, like we mentioned, there's a lot of great reasons for it around the economics and the way ability to tap into the innovation that the cloud providers are giving around data and AI architecture. It's an easy button. So the mesh allows you to have the best of both worlds. You can start using the data products on-prem or in the existing systems that are working already. It's meaningful for the business. At the same time, you can modernize the ones that make business sense because it needs better performance. It needs, you know, something that is, is cheaper or, or maybe just tap into better analytics to get better insights, right? So you're gonna be able to stretch and really have the best of both worlds. That, again, going back to Richard's point, that is meaningful by the business. Not everything has to have that one size fits all set a tool. >>Okay. Thank you. So Richard, you know, talking about data as product, wonder if we could give us your perspectives here, what are the advantages of treating data as a product? What, what role do data products have in the modern data stack? We talk about monetizing data. What are your thoughts on data products? >>So for us, one of the most important data products that we've been creating is taking data that is healthcare data across a wide variety of different settings. So information about patients' demographics about their, their treatment, about their medications and so on, and taking that into a standards format that can be utilized by a wide variety of different researchers because misinterpreting that data or having the data not presented in the way that the user is expecting means that you generate the wrong insight. And in any business, that's clearly not a desirable outcome, but when that insight is so critical, as it might be in healthcare or some security settings, you really have to have gone to the trouble of understanding the data, presenting it in a format that everyone can clearly agree on. And then letting people consume in a very structured, managed way, even if that data comes from a variety of different sources in, in, in the first place. And so our data product journey has really begun by standardizing data across a number of different silos through the data mesh. So we can present out both internally and through the right governance externally to, to researchers. >>So that data product through whatever APIs is, is accessible, it's discoverable, but it's obviously gotta be governed as well. You mentioned you, you appropriately provided to internally. Yeah. But also, you know, external folks as well. So the, so you've, you've architected that capability today >>We have, and because the data is standard, it can generate value much more quickly and we can be sure of the security and, and, and value that that's providing because the data product isn't just about formatting the data into the correct tables, it's understanding what it means to redact the data or to remove certain rows from it or to interpret what a date actually means. Is it the start of the contract or the start of the treatment or the date of birth of a patient? These things can be lost in the data storage without having the proper product management around the data to say in a very clear business context, what does this data mean? And what does it mean to process this data for a particular use case? >>Yeah, it makes sense. It's got the context. If the, if the domains own the data, you, you gotta cut through a lot of the, the, the centralized teams, the technical teams that, that data agnostic, they don't really have that context. All right. Let's send Justin, how does Starburst fit into this modern data stack? Bring us home. >>Yeah. So I think for us, it's really providing our customers with, you know, the flexibility to operate and analyze data that lives in a wide variety of different systems. Ultimately giving them that optionality, you know, and optionality provides the ability to reduce costs, store more in a data lake rather than data warehouse. It provides the ability for the fastest time to insight to access the data directly where it lives. And ultimately with this concept of data products that we've now, you know, incorporated into our offering as well, you can really create and, and curate, you know, data as a product to be shared and consumed. So we're trying to help enable the data mesh, you know, model and make that an appropriate compliment to, you know, the, the, the modern data stack that people have today. >>Excellent. Hey, I wanna thank Justin Theresa and Richard for joining us today. You guys are great. I big believers in the, in the data mesh concept, and I think, you know, we're seeing the future of data architecture. So thank you. Now, remember, all these conversations are gonna be available on the cube.net for on-demand viewing. You can also go to starburst.io. They have some great content on the website and they host some really thought provoking interviews and, and, and they have awesome resources, lots of data mesh conversations over there, and really good stuff in, in the resource section. So check that out. Thanks for watching the data doesn't lie or does it made possible by Starburst data? This is Dave Valante for the cube, and we'll see you next time. >>The explosion of data sources has forced organizations to modernize their systems and architecture and come to terms with one size does not fit all for data management today. Your teams are constantly moving and copying data, which requires time management. And in some cases, double paying for compute resources. Instead, what if you could access all your data anywhere using the BI tools and SQL skills your users already have. And what if this also included enterprise security and fast performance with Starburst enterprise, you can provide your data consumers with a single point of secure access to all of your data, no matter where it lives with features like strict, fine grained, access control, end to end data encryption and data masking Starburst meets the security standards of the largest companies. Starburst enterprise can easily be deployed anywhere and managed with insights where data teams holistically view their clusters operation and query execution. So they can reach meaningful business decisions faster, all this with the support of the largest team of Trino experts in the world, delivering fully tested stable releases and available to support you 24 7 to unlock the value in all of your data. You need a solution that easily fits with what you have today and can adapt to your architecture. Tomorrow. 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>>In 2011, early Facebook employee and Cloudera co-founder Jeff Ocker famously said the best minds of my generation are thinking about how to get people to click on ads. And that sucks. Let's face it more than a decade later organizations continue to be frustrated with how difficult it is to get value from data and build a truly agile data-driven enterprise. What does that even mean? You ask? Well, it means that everyone in the organization has the data they need when they need it. In a context that's relevant to advance the mission of an organization. Now that could mean cutting cost could mean increasing profits, driving productivity, saving lives, accelerating drug discovery, making better diagnoses, solving, supply chain problems, predicting weather disasters, simplifying processes, and thousands of other examples where data can completely transform people's lives beyond manipulating internet users to behave a certain way. We've heard the prognostications about the possibilities of data before and in fairness we've made progress, but the hard truth is the original promises of master data management, enterprise data, warehouses, data marts, data hubs, and yes, even data lakes were broken and left us wanting from more welcome to the data doesn't lie, or doesn't a series of conversations produced by the cube and made possible by Starburst data. >>I'm your host, Dave Lanta and joining me today are three industry experts. Justin Borgman is this co-founder and CEO of Starburst. Richard Jarvis is the CTO at EMI health and Theresa tongue is cloud first technologist at Accenture. Today we're gonna have a candid discussion that will expose the unfulfilled and yes, broken promises of a data past we'll expose data lies, big lies, little lies, white lies, and hidden truths. And we'll challenge, age old data conventions and bust some data myths. We're debating questions like is the demise of a single source of truth. Inevitable will the data warehouse ever have featured parody with the data lake or vice versa is the so-called modern data stack, simply centralization in the cloud, AKA the old guards model in new cloud close. How can organizations rethink their data architectures and regimes to realize the true promises of data can and will and open ecosystem deliver on these promises in our lifetimes, we're spanning much of the Western world today. Richard is in the UK. Teresa is on the west coast and Justin is in Massachusetts with me. I'm in the cube studios about 30 miles outside of Boston folks. Welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having us. Let's get right into it. You're very welcome. Now here's the first lie. The most effective data architecture is one that is centralized with a team of data specialists serving various lines of business. What do you think Justin? >>Yeah, definitely a lie. My first startup was a company called hit adapt, which was an early SQL engine for hit that was acquired by Teradata. And when I got to Teradata, of course, Teradata is the pioneer of that central enterprise data warehouse model. One of the things that I found fascinating was that not one of their customers had actually lived up to that vision of centralizing all of their data into one place. They all had data silos. They all had data in different systems. They had data on prem data in the cloud. You know, those companies were acquiring other companies and inheriting their data architecture. So, you know, despite being the industry leader for 40 years, not one of their customers truly had everything in one place. So I think definitely history has proven that to be a lie. >>So Richard, from a practitioner's point of view, you know, what, what are your thoughts? I mean, there, there's a lot of pressure to cut cost, keep things centralized, you know, serve the business as best as possible from that standpoint. What, what is your experience show? >>Yeah, I mean, I think I would echo Justin's experience really that we, as a business have grown up through acquisition, through storing data in different places sometimes to do information governance in different ways to store data in, in a platform that's close to data experts, people who really understand healthcare data from pharmacies or from, from doctors. And so, although if you were starting from a Greenfield site and you were building something brand new, you might be able to centralize all the data and all of the tooling and teams in one place. The reality is that that businesses just don't grow up like that. And, and it's just really impossible to get that academic perfection of, of storing everything in one place. >>Y you know, Theresa, I feel like Sarbanes Oxley kinda saved the data warehouse, you know, right. You actually did have to have a single version of the truth for certain financial data, but really for those, some of those other use cases, I, I mentioned, I, I do feel like the industry has kinda let us down. What's your take on this? Where does it make sense to have that sort of centralized approach versus where does it make sense to maybe decentralized? >>I, I think you gotta have centralized governance, right? So from the central team, for things like star Oxley, for things like security for certainly very core data sets, having a centralized set of roles, responsibilities to really QA, right. To serve as a design authority for your entire data estate, just like you might with security, but how it's implemented has to be distributed. Otherwise you're not gonna be able to scale. Right? So being able to have different parts of the business really make the right data investments for their needs. And then ultimately you're gonna collaborate with your partners. So partners that are not within the company, right. External partners, we're gonna see a lot more data sharing and model creation. And so you're definitely going to be decentralized. >>So, you know, Justin, you guys last, geez, I think it was about a year ago, had a session on, on data mesh. It was a great program. You invited Jamma, Dani, of course, she's the creator of the data mesh. And her one of our fundamental premises is that you've got this hyper specialized team that you've gotta go through. And if you want anything, but at the same time, these, these individuals actually become a bottleneck, even though they're some of the most talented people in the organization. So I guess question for you, Richard, how do you deal with that? Do you, do you organize so that there are a few sort of rock stars that, that, you know, build cubes and, and the like, and, and, and, or have you had any success in sort of decentralizing with, you know, your, your constituencies, that data model? >>Yeah. So, so we absolutely have got rockstar, data scientists and data guardians. If you like people who understand what it means to use this data, particularly as the data that we use at emos is very private it's healthcare information. And some of the, the rules and regulations around using the data are very complex and, and strict. So we have to have people who understand the usage of the data, then people who understand how to build models, how to process the data effectively. And you can think of them like consultants to the wider business, because a pharmacist might not understand how to structure a SQL query, but they do understand how they want to process medication information to improve patient lives. And so that becomes a, a consulting type experience from a, a set of rock stars to help a, a more decentralized business who needs to, to understand the data and to generate some valuable output. >>Justin, what do you say to a, to a customer or prospect that says, look, Justin, I'm gonna, I got a centralized team and that's the most cost effective way to serve the business. Otherwise I got, I got duplication. What do you say to that? >>Well, I, I would argue it's probably not the most cost effective and, and the reason being really twofold. I think, first of all, when you are deploying a enterprise data warehouse model, the, the data warehouse itself is very expensive, generally speaking. And so you're putting all of your most valuable data in the hands of one vendor who now has tremendous leverage over you, you know, for many, many years to come. I think that's the story at Oracle or Terra data or other proprietary database systems. But the other aspect I think is that the reality is those central data warehouse teams is as much as they are experts in the technology. They don't necessarily understand the data itself. And this is one of the core tenants of data mash that that jam writes about is this idea of the domain owners actually know the data the best. >>And so by, you know, not only acknowledging that data is generally decentralized and to your earlier point about SAR, brain Oxley, maybe saving the data warehouse, I would argue maybe GDPR and data sovereignty will destroy it because data has to be decentralized for, for those laws to be compliant. But I think the reality is, you know, the data mesh model basically says, data's decentralized, and we're gonna turn that into an asset rather than a liability. And we're gonna turn that into an asset by empowering the people that know the data, the best to participate in the process of, you know, curating and creating data products for, for consumption. So I think when you think about it, that way, you're going to get higher quality data and faster time to insight, which is ultimately going to drive more revenue for your business and reduce costs. So I think that that's the way I see the two, the two models comparing and contrasting. >>So do you think the demise of the data warehouse is inevitable? I mean, I mean, you know, there Theresa you work with a lot of clients, they're not just gonna rip and replace their existing infrastructure. Maybe they're gonna build on top of it, but what does that mean? Does that mean the E D w just becomes, you know, less and less valuable over time, or it's maybe just isolated to specific use cases. What's your take on that? >>Listen, I still would love all my data within a data warehouse would love it. Mastered would love it owned by essential team. Right? I think that's still what I would love to have. That's just not the reality, right? The investment to actually migrate and keep that up to date. I would say it's a losing battle. Like we've been trying to do it for a long time. Nobody has the budgets and then data changes, right? There's gonna be a new technology. That's gonna emerge that we're gonna wanna tap into. There's going to be not enough investment to bring all the legacy, but still very useful systems into that centralized view. So you keep the data warehouse. I think it's a very, very valuable, very high performance tool for what it's there for, but you could have this, you know, new mesh layer that still takes advantage of the things. I mentioned, the data products in the systems that are meaningful today and the data products that actually might span a number of systems, maybe either those that either source systems for the domains that know it best, or the consumer based systems and products that need to be packaged in a way that be really meaningful for that end user, right? Each of those are useful for a different part of the business and making sure that the mesh actually allows you to use all of them. >>So, Richard, let me ask you, you take, take Gemma's principles back to those. You got to, you know, domain ownership and, and, and data as product. Okay, great. Sounds good. But it creates what I would argue are two, you know, challenges, self-serve infrastructure let's park that for a second. And then in your industry, the one of the high, most regulated, most sensitive computational governance, how do you automate and ensure federated governance in that mesh model that Theresa was just talking about? >>Well, it absolutely depends on some of the tooling and processes that you put in place around those tools to be, to centralize the security and the governance of the data. And I think, although a data warehouse makes that very simple, cause it's a single tool, it's not impossible with some of the data mesh technologies that are available. And so what we've done at emus is we have a single security layer that sits on top of our data match, which means that no matter which user is accessing, which data source, we go through a well audited well understood security layer. That means that we know exactly who's got access to which data field, which data tables. And then everything that they do is, is audited in a very kind of standard way, regardless of the underlying data storage technology. So for me, although storing the data in one place might not be possible understanding where your source of truth is and securing that in a common way is still a valuable approach and you can do it without having to bring all that data into a single bucket so that it's all in one place. And, and so having done that and investing quite heavily in making that possible has paid dividends in terms of giving wider access to the platform and ensuring that only data that's available under GDPR and other regulations is being used by, by the data users. >>Yeah. So Justin, I mean, Democrat, we always talk about data democratization and you know, up until recently, they really haven't been line of sight as to how to get there. But do you have anything to add to this because you're essentially taking, you know, do an analytic queries and with data that's all dispersed all over the, how are you seeing your customers handle this, this challenge? >>Yeah. I mean, I think data products is a really interesting aspect of the answer to that. It allows you to, again, leverage the data domain owners, people know the data, the best to, to create, you know, data as a product ultimately to be consumed. And we try to represent that in our product as effectively a almost eCommerce like experience where you go and discover and look for the data products that have been created in your organization. And then you can start to consume them as, as you'd like. And so really trying to build on that notion of, you know, data democratization and self-service, and making it very easy to discover and, and start to use with whatever BI tool you, you may like, or even just running, you know, SQL queries yourself, >>Okay. G guys grab a sip of water. After this short break, we'll be back to debate whether proprietary or open platforms are the best path to the future of data excellence, keep it right there. >>Your company has more data than ever, and more people trying to understand it, but there's a problem. Your data is stored across multiple systems. It's hard to access and that delays analytics and ultimately decisions. The old method of moving all of your data into a single source of truth is slow and definitely not built for the volume of data we have today or where we are headed while your data engineers spent over half their time, moving data, your analysts and data scientists are left, waiting, feeling frustrated, unproductive, and unable to move the needle for your business. But what if you could spend less time moving or copying data? What if your data consumers could analyze all your data quickly? >>Starburst helps your teams run fast queries on any data source. We help you create a single point of access to your data, no matter where it's stored. And we support high concurrency, we solve for speed and scale, whether it's fast, SQL queries on your data lake or faster queries across multiple data sets, Starburst helps your teams run analytics anywhere you can't afford to wait for data to be available. Your team has questions that need answers. Now with Starburst, the wait is over. You'll have faster access to data with enterprise level security, easy connectivity, and 24 7 support from experts, organizations like Zolando Comcast and FINRA rely on Starburst to move their businesses forward. Contact our Trino experts to get started. >>We're back with Jess Borgman of Starburst and Richard Jarvis of EVAs health. Okay, we're gonna get to lie. Number two, and that is this an open source based platform cannot give you the performance and control that you can get with a proprietary system. Is that a lie? Justin, the enterprise data warehouse has been pretty dominant and has evolved and matured. Its stack has mature over the years. Why is it not the default platform for data? >>Yeah, well, I think that's become a lie over time. So I, I think, you know, if we go back 10 or 12 years ago with the advent of the first data lake really around Hudu, that probably was true that you couldn't get the performance that you needed to run fast, interactive, SQL queries in a data lake. Now a lot's changed in 10 or 12 years. I remember in the very early days, people would say, you you'll never get performance because you need to be column there. You need to store data in a column format. And then, you know, column formats we're introduced to, to data apes, you have Parque ORC file in aro that were created to ultimately deliver performance out of that. So, okay. We got, you know, largely over the performance hurdle, you know, more recently people will say, well, you don't have the ability to do updates and deletes like a traditional data warehouse. >>And now we've got the creation of new data formats, again like iceberg and Delta and Hodi that do allow for updates and delete. So I think the data lake has continued to mature. And I remember a, a quote from, you know, Kurt Monash many years ago where he said, you know, know it takes six or seven years to build a functional database. I think that's that's right. And now we've had almost a decade go by. So, you know, these technologies have matured to really deliver very, very close to the same level performance and functionality of, of cloud data warehouses. So I think the, the reality is that's become a line and now we have large giant hyperscale internet companies that, you know, don't have the traditional data warehouse at all. They do all of their analytics in a data lake. So I think we've, we've proven that it's very much possible today. >>Thank you for that. And so Richard, talk about your perspective as a practitioner in terms of what open brings you versus, I mean, look closed is it's open as a moving target. I remember Unix used to be open systems and so it's, it is an evolving, you know, spectrum, but, but from your perspective, what does open give you that you can't get from a proprietary system where you are fearful of in a proprietary system? >>I, I suppose for me open buys us the ability to be unsure about the future, because one thing that's always true about technology is it evolves in a, a direction, slightly different to what people expect. And what you don't want to end up is done is backed itself into a corner that then prevents it from innovating. So if you have chosen a technology and you've stored trillions of records in that technology and suddenly a new way of processing or machine learning comes out, you wanna be able to take advantage and your competitive edge might depend upon it. And so I suppose for us, we acknowledge that we don't have perfect vision of what the future might be. And so by backing open storage technologies, we can apply a number of different technologies to the processing of that data. And that gives us the ability to remain relevant, innovate on our data storage. And we have bought our way out of the, any performance concerns because we can use cloud scale infrastructure to scale up and scale down as we need. And so we don't have the concerns that we don't have enough hardware today to process what we want to do, want to achieve. We can just scale up when we need it and scale back down. So open source has really allowed us to maintain the being at the cutting edge. >>So Jess, let me play devil's advocate here a little bit, and I've talked to Shaak about this and you know, obviously her vision is there's an open source that, that the data meshes open source, an open source tooling, and it's not a proprietary, you know, you're not gonna buy a data mesh. You're gonna build it with, with open source toolings and, and vendors like you are gonna support it, but to come back to sort of today, you can get to market with a proprietary solution faster. I'm gonna make that statement. You tell me if it's a lie and then you can say, okay, we support Apache iceberg. We're gonna support open source tooling, take a company like VMware, not really in the data business, but how, the way they embraced Kubernetes and, and you know, every new open source thing that comes along, they say, we do that too. Why can't proprietary systems do that and be as effective? >>Yeah, well, I think at least with the, within the data landscape saying that you can access open data formats like iceberg or, or others is, is a bit dis disingenuous because really what you're selling to your customer is a certain degree of performance, a certain SLA, and you know, those cloud data warehouses that can reach beyond their own proprietary storage drop all the performance that they were able to provide. So it is, it reminds me kind of, of, again, going back 10 or 12 years ago when everybody had a connector to Haddo and that they thought that was the solution, right? But the reality was, you know, a connector was not the same as running workloads in Haddo back then. And I think similarly, you know, being able to connect to an external table that lives in an open data format, you know, you're, you're not going to give it the performance that your customers are accustomed to. And at the end of the day, they're always going to be predisposed. They're always going to be incentivized to get that data ingested into the data warehouse, cuz that's where they have control. And you know, the bottom line is the database industry has really been built around vendor lockin. I mean, from the start, how, how many people love Oracle today, but our customers, nonetheless, I think, you know, lockin is, is, is part of this industry. And I think that's really what we're trying to change with open data formats. >>Well, that's interesting reminded when I, you know, I see the, the gas price, the tees or gas price I, I drive up and then I say, oh, that's the cash price credit card. I gotta pay 20 cents more, but okay. But so the, the argument then, so let me, let me come back to you, Justin. So what's wrong with saying, Hey, we support open data formats, but yeah, you're gonna get better performance if you, if you keep it into our closed system, are you saying that long term that's gonna come back and bite you cuz you're gonna end up, you mentioned Oracle, you mentioned Teradata. Yeah. That's by, by implication, you're saying that's where snowflake customers are headed. >>Yeah, absolutely. I think this is a movie that, you know, we've all seen before. At least those of us who've been in the industry long enough to, to see this movie play over a couple times. So I do think that's the future. And I think, you know, I loved what Richard said. I actually wrote it down. Cause I thought it was an amazing quote. He said, it buys us the ability to be unsure of the future. Th that that pretty much says it all the, the future is unknowable and the reality is using open data formats. You remain interoperable with any technology you want to utilize. If you want to use spark to train a machine learning model and you want to use Starbust to query via sequel, that's totally cool. They can both work off the same exact, you know, data, data sets by contrast, if you're, you know, focused on a proprietary model, then you're kind of locked in again to that model. I think the same applies to data, sharing to data products, to a wide variety of, of aspects of the data landscape that a proprietary approach kind of closes you in and locks you in. >>So I, I would say this Richard, I'd love to get your thoughts on it. Cause I talked to a lot of Oracle customers, not as many te data customers, but, but a lot of Oracle customers and they, you know, they'll admit, yeah, you know, they're jamming us on price and the license cost they give, but we do get value out of it. And so my question to you, Richard, is, is do the, let's call it data warehouse systems or the proprietary systems. Are they gonna deliver a greater ROI sooner? And is that in allure of, of that customers, you know, are attracted to, or can open platforms deliver as fast in ROI? >>I think the answer to that is it can depend a bit. It depends on your businesses skillset. So we are lucky that we have a number of proprietary teams that work in databases that provide our operational data capability. And we have teams of analytics and big data experts who can work with open data sets and open data formats. And so for those different teams, they can get to an ROI more quickly with different technologies for the business though, we can't do better for our operational data stores than proprietary databases. Today we can back off very tight SLAs to them. We can demonstrate reliability from millions of hours of those databases being run at enterprise scale, but for an analytics workload where increasing our business is growing in that direction, we can't do better than open data formats with cloud-based data mesh type technologies. And so it's not a simple answer. That one will always be the right answer for our business. We definitely have times when proprietary databases provide a capability that we couldn't easily represent or replicate with open technologies. >>Yeah. Richard, stay with you. You mentioned, you know, you know, some things before that, that strike me, you know, the data brick snowflake, you know, thing is, oh, is a lot of fun for analysts like me. You've got data bricks coming at it. Richard, you mentioned you have a lot of rockstar, data engineers, data bricks coming at it from a data engineering heritage. You get snowflake coming at it from an analytics heritage. Those two worlds are, are colliding people like PJI Mohan said, you know what? I think it's actually harder to play in the data engineering. So I E it's easier to for data engineering world to go into the analytics world versus the reverse, but thinking about up and coming engineers and developers preparing for this future of data engineering and data analytics, how, how should they be thinking about the future? What, what's your advice to those young people? >>So I think I'd probably fall back on general programming skill sets. So the advice that I saw years ago was if you have open source technologies, the pythons and Javas on your CV, you commander 20% pay, hike over people who can only do proprietary programming languages. And I think that's true of data technologies as well. And from a business point of view, that makes sense. I'd rather spend the money that I save on proprietary licenses on better engineers, because they can provide more value to the business that can innovate us beyond our competitors. So I think I would my advice to people who are starting here or trying to build teams to capitalize on data assets is begin with open license, free capabilities, because they're very cheap to experiment with. And they generate a lot of interest from people who want to join you as a business. And you can make them very successful early, early doors with, with your analytics journey. >>It's interesting. Again, analysts like myself, we do a lot of TCO work and have over the last 20 plus years. And in world of Oracle, you know, normally it's the staff, that's the biggest nut in total cost of ownership, not an Oracle. It's the it's the license cost is by far the biggest component in the, in the blame pie. All right, Justin, help us close out this segment. We've been talking about this sort of data mesh open, closed snowflake data bricks. Where does Starburst sort of as this engine for the data lake data lake house, the data warehouse fit in this, in this world? >>Yeah. So our view on how the future ultimately unfolds is we think that data lakes will be a natural center of gravity for a lot of the reasons that we described open data formats, lowest total cost of ownership, because you get to choose the cheapest storage available to you. Maybe that's S3 or Azure data lake storage, or Google cloud storage, or maybe it's on-prem object storage that you bought at a, at a really good price. So ultimately storing a lot of data in a deal lake makes a lot of sense, but I think what makes our perspective unique is we still don't think you're gonna get everything there either. We think that basically centralization of all your data assets is just an impossible endeavor. And so you wanna be able to access data that lives outside of the lake as well. So we kind of think of the lake as maybe the biggest place by volume in terms of how much data you have, but to, to have comprehensive analytics and to truly understand your business and understand it holistically, you need to be able to go access other data sources as well. And so that's the role that we wanna play is to be a single point of access for our customers, provide the right level of fine grained access controls so that the right people have access to the right data and ultimately make it easy to discover and consume via, you know, the creation of data products as well. >>Great. Okay. Thanks guys. Right after this quick break, we're gonna be back to debate whether the cloud data model that we see emerging and the so-called modern data stack is really modern, or is it the same wine new bottle? When it comes to data architectures, you're watching the cube, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. >>Your data is capable of producing incredible results, but data consumers are often left in the dark without fast access to the data they need. Starers makes your data visible from wherever it lives. Your company is acquiring more data in more places, more rapidly than ever to rely solely on a data centralization strategy. Whether it's in a lake or a warehouse is unrealistic. A single source of truth approach is no longer viable, but disconnected data silos are often left untapped. We need a new approach. One that embraces distributed data. One that enables fast and secure access to any of your data from anywhere with Starburst, you'll have the fastest query engine for the data lake that allows you to connect and analyze your disparate data sources no matter where they live Starburst provides the foundational technology required for you to build towards the vision of a decentralized data mesh Starburst enterprise and Starburst galaxy offer enterprise ready, connectivity, interoperability, and security features for multiple regions, multiple clouds and everchanging global regulatory requirements. The data is yours. And with Starburst, you can perform analytics anywhere in light of your world. >>Okay. We're back with Justin Boardman. CEO of Starbust Richard Jarvis is the CTO of EMI health and Theresa tongue is the cloud first technologist from Accenture. We're on July number three. And that is the claim that today's modern data stack is actually modern. So I guess that's the lie it's it is it's is that it's not modern. Justin, what do you say? >>Yeah. I mean, I think new isn't modern, right? I think it's the, it's the new data stack. It's the cloud data stack, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's modern. I think a lot of the components actually are exactly the same as what we've had for 40 years, rather than Terra data. You have snowflake rather than Informatica you have five trend. So it's the same general stack, just, you know, a cloud version of it. And I think a lot of the challenges that it plagued us for 40 years still maintain. >>So lemme come back to you just, but okay. But, but there are differences, right? I mean, you can scale, you can throw resources at the problem. You can separate compute from storage. You really, you know, there's a lot of money being thrown at that by venture capitalists and snowflake, you mentioned it's competitors. So that's different. Is it not, is that not at least an aspect of, of modern dial it up, dial it down. So what, what do you say to that? >>Well, it, it is, it's certainly taking, you know, what the cloud offers and taking advantage of that, but it's important to note that the cloud data warehouses out there are really just separating their compute from their storage. So it's allowing them to scale up and down, but your data still stored in a proprietary format. You're still locked in. You still have to ingest the data to get it even prepared for analysis. So a lot of the same sort of structural constraints that exist with the old enterprise data warehouse model OnPrem still exist just yes, a little bit more elastic now because the cloud offers that. >>So Theresa, let me go to you cuz you have cloud first in your, in your, your title. So what's what say you to this conversation? >>Well, even the cloud providers are looking towards more of a cloud continuum, right? So the centralized cloud, as we know it, maybe data lake data warehouse in the central place, that's not even how the cloud providers are looking at it. They have news query services. Every provider has one that really expands those queries to be beyond a single location. And if we look at a lot of where our, the future goes, right, that that's gonna very much fall the same thing. There was gonna be more edge. There's gonna be more on premise because of data sovereignty, data gravity, because you're working with different parts of the business that have already made major cloud investments in different cloud providers. Right? So there's a lot of reasons why the modern, I guess, the next modern generation of the data staff needs to be much more federated. >>Okay. So Richard, how do you deal with this? You you've obviously got, you know, the technical debt, the existing infrastructure it's on the books. You don't wanna just throw it out. A lot of, lot of conversation about modernizing applications, which a lot of times is a, you know, a microservices layer on top of leg legacy apps. How do you think about the modern data stack? >>Well, I think probably the first thing to say is that the stack really has to include the processes and people around the data as well is all well and good changing the technology. But if you don't modernize how people use that technology, then you're not going to be able to, to scale because just cuz you can scale CPU and storage doesn't mean you can get more people to use your data, to generate you more, more value for the business. And so what we've been looking at is really changing in very much aligned to data products and, and data mesh. How do you enable more people to consume the service and have the stack respond in a way that keeps costs low? Because that's important for our customers consuming this data, but also allows people to occasionally run enormous queries and then tick along with smaller ones when required. And it's a good job we did because during COVID all of a sudden we had enormous pressures on our data platform to answer really important life threatening queries. And if we couldn't scale both our data stack and our teams, we wouldn't have been able to answer those as quickly as we had. So I think the stack needs to support a scalable business, not just the technology itself. >>Well thank you for that. So Justin let's, let's try to break down what the critical aspects are of the modern data stack. So you think about the past, you know, five, seven years cloud obviously has given a different pricing model. De-risked experimentation, you know that we talked about the ability to scale up scale down, but it's, I'm, I'm taking away that that's not enough based on what Richard just said. The modern data stack has to serve the business and enable the business to build data products. I, I buy that. I'm a big fan of the data mesh concepts, even though we're early days. So what are the critical aspects if you had to think about, you know, paying, maybe putting some guardrails and definitions around the modern data stack, what does that look like? What are some of the attributes and, and principles there >>Of, of how it should look like or, or how >>It's yeah. What it should be. >>Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, in, in Theresa mentioned this in, in a previous segment about the data warehouse is not necessarily going to disappear. It just becomes one node, one element of the overall data mesh. And I, I certainly agree with that. So by no means, are we suggesting that, you know, snowflake or Redshift or whatever cloud data warehouse you may be using is going to disappear, but it's, it's not going to become the end all be all. It's not the, the central single source of truth. And I think that's the paradigm shift that needs to occur. And I think it's also worth noting that those who were the early adopters of the modern data stack were primarily digital, native born in the cloud young companies who had the benefit of, of idealism. They had the benefit of it was starting with a clean slate that does not reflect the vast majority of enterprises. >>And even those companies, as they grow up mature out of that ideal state, they go buy a business. Now they've got something on another cloud provider that has a different data stack and they have to deal with that heterogeneity that is just change and change is a part of life. And so I think there is an element here that is almost philosophical. It's like, do you believe in an absolute ideal where I can just fit everything into one place or do I believe in reality? And I think the far more pragmatic approach is really what data mesh represents. So to answer your question directly, I think it's adding, you know, the ability to access data that lives outside of the data warehouse, maybe living in open data formats in a data lake or accessing operational systems as well. Maybe you want to directly access data that lives in an Oracle database or a Mongo database or, or what have you. So creating that flexibility to really Futureproof yourself from the inevitable change that you will, you won't encounter over time. >>So thank you. So there, based on what Justin just said, I, my takeaway there is it's inclusive, whether it's a data Mar data hub, data lake data warehouse, it's a, just a node on the mesh. Okay. I get that. Does that include there on Preem data? O obviously it has to, what are you seeing in terms of the ability to, to take that data mesh concept on Preem? I mean, most implementations I've seen in data mesh, frankly really aren't, you know, adhering to the philosophy. They're maybe, maybe it's data lake and maybe it's using glue. You look at what JPMC is doing. Hello, fresh, a lot of stuff happening on the AWS cloud in that, you know, closed stack, if you will. What's the answer to that Theresa? >>I mean, I, I think it's a killer case for data. Me, the fact that you have valuable data sources, OnPrem, and then yet you still wanna modernize and take the best of cloud cloud is still, like we mentioned, there's a lot of great reasons for it around the economics and the way ability to tap into the innovation that the cloud providers are giving around data and AI architecture. It's an easy button. So the mesh allows you to have the best of both worlds. You can start using the data products on-prem or in the existing systems that are working already. It's meaningful for the business. At the same time, you can modernize the ones that make business sense because it needs better performance. It needs, you know, something that is, is cheaper or, or maybe just tap into better analytics to get better insights, right? So you're gonna be able to stretch and really have the best of both worlds. That, again, going back to Richard's point, that is meaningful by the business. Not everything has to have that one size fits all set a tool. >>Okay. Thank you. So Richard, you know, talking about data as product, wonder if we could give us your perspectives here, what are the advantages of treating data as a product? What, what role do data products have in the modern data stack? We talk about monetizing data. What are your thoughts on data products? >>So for us, one of the most important data products that we've been creating is taking data that is healthcare data across a wide variety of different settings. So information about patients' demographics about their, their treatment, about their medications and so on, and taking that into a standards format that can be utilized by a wide variety of different researchers because misinterpreting that data or having the data not presented in the way that the user is expecting means that you generate the wrong insight. And in any business, that's clearly not a desirable outcome, but when that insight is so critical, as it might be in healthcare or some security settings, you really have to have gone to the trouble of understanding the data, presenting it in a format that everyone can clearly agree on. And then letting people consume in a very structured, managed way, even if that data comes from a variety of different sources in, in, in the first place. And so our data product journey has really begun by standardizing data across a number of different silos through the data mesh. So we can present out both internally and through the right governance externally to, to researchers. >>So that data product through whatever APIs is, is accessible, it's discoverable, but it's obviously gotta be governed as well. You mentioned you, you appropriately provided to internally. Yeah. But also, you know, external folks as well. So the, so you've, you've architected that capability today >>We have, and because the data is standard, it can generate value much more quickly and we can be sure of the security and, and, and value that that's providing because the data product isn't just about formatting the data into the correct tables, it's understanding what it means to redact the data or to remove certain rows from it or to interpret what a date actually means. Is it the start of the contract or the start of the treatment or the date of birth of a patient? These things can be lost in the data storage without having the proper product management around the data to say in a very clear business context, what does this data mean? And what does it mean to process this data for a particular use case? >>Yeah, it makes sense. It's got the context. If the, if the domains own the data, you, you gotta cut through a lot of the, the, the centralized teams, the technical teams that, that data agnostic, they don't really have that context. All right. Let's send Justin, how does Starburst fit into this modern data stack? Bring us home. >>Yeah. So I think for us, it's really providing our customers with, you know, the flexibility to operate and analyze data that lives in a wide variety of different systems. Ultimately giving them that optionality, you know, and optionality provides the ability to reduce costs, store more in a data lake rather than data warehouse. It provides the ability for the fastest time to insight to access the data directly where it lives. And ultimately with this concept of data products that we've now, you know, incorporated into our offering as well, you can really create and, and curate, you know, data as a product to be shared and consumed. So we're trying to help enable the data mesh, you know, model and make that an appropriate compliment to, you know, the, the, the modern data stack that people have today. >>Excellent. Hey, I wanna thank Justin Theresa and Richard for joining us today. You guys are great. I big believers in the, in the data mesh concept, and I think, you know, we're seeing the future of data architecture. So thank you. Now, remember, all these conversations are gonna be available on the cube.net for on-demand viewing. You can also go to starburst.io. They have some great content on the website and they host some really thought provoking interviews and, and, and they have awesome resources, lots of data mesh conversations over there, and really good stuff in, in the resource section. So check that out. Thanks for watching the data doesn't lie or does it made possible by Starburst data? This is Dave Valante for the cube, and we'll see you next time. >>The explosion of data sources has forced organizations to modernize their systems and architecture and come to terms with one size does not fit all for data management today. Your teams are constantly moving and copying data, which requires time management. And in some cases, double paying for compute resources. Instead, what if you could access all your data anywhere using the BI tools and SQL skills your users already have. And what if this also included enterprise security and fast performance with Starburst enterprise, you can provide your data consumers with a single point of secure access to all of your data, no matter where it lives with features like strict, fine grained, access control, end to end data encryption and data masking Starburst meets the security standards of the largest companies. Starburst enterprise can easily be deployed anywhere and managed with insights where data teams holistically view their clusters operation and query execution. So they can reach meaningful business decisions faster, all this with the support of the largest team of Trino experts in the world, delivering fully tested stable releases and available to support you 24 7 to unlock the value in all of your data. You need a solution that easily fits with what you have today and can adapt to your architecture. Tomorrow. 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>>We're back with Jess Borgman of Starburst and Richard Jarvis of emus health. Okay. We're gonna get into lie. Number two, and that is this an open source based platform cannot give you the performance and control that you can get with a proprietary system. Is that a lie? Justin, the enterprise data warehouse has been pretty dominant and has evolved and matured. Its stack has mature over the years. Why is it not the default platform for data? >>Yeah, well, I think that's become a lie over time. So I, I think, you know, if we go back 10 or 12 years ago with the advent of the first data lake really around Hudu, that probably was true that you couldn't get the performance that you needed to run fast, interactive, SQL queries in a data lake. Now a lot's changed in 10 or 12 years. I remember in the very early days, people would say, you'll, you'll never get performance because you need to be column. You need to store data in a column format. And then, you know, column formats were introduced to, to data lakes. You have Parque ORC file in aro that were created to ultimately deliver performance out of that. So, okay. We got, you know, largely over the performance hurdle, you know, more recently people will say, well, you don't have the ability to do updates and deletes like a traditional data warehouse. >>And now we've got the creation of new data formats, again like iceberg and Delta and DY that do allow for updates and delete. So I think the data lake has continued to mature. And I remember a, a quote from, you know, Kurt Monash many years ago where he said, you know, it takes six or seven years to build a functional database. I think that's that's right. And now we've had almost a decade go by. So, you know, these technologies have matured to really deliver very, very close to the same level performance and functionality of, of cloud data warehouses. So I think the, the reality is that's become a lie and now we have large giant hyperscale internet companies that, you know, don't have the traditional data warehouse at all. They do all of their analytics in a data lake. So I think we've, we've proven that it's very much possible today. >>Thank you for that. And so Richard, talk about your perspective as a practitioner in terms of what open brings you versus, I mean, the closed is it's open as a moving target. I remember Unix used to be open systems and so it's, it is an evolving, you know, spectrum, but, but from your perspective, what does open give you that you can't get from a proprietary system where you are fearful of in a proprietary system? >>I, I suppose for me open buys us the ability to be unsure about the future, because one thing that's always true about technology is it evolves in a, a direction, slightly different to what people expect. And what you don't want to end up is done is backed itself into a corner that then prevents it from innovating. So if you have chosen the technology and you've stored trillions of records in that technology and suddenly a new way of processing or machine learning comes out, you wanna be able to take advantage and your competitive edge might depend upon it. And so I suppose for us, we acknowledge that we don't have perfect vision of what the future might be. And so by backing open storage technologies, we can apply a number of different technologies to the processing of that data. And that gives us the ability to remain relevant, innovate on our data storage. And we have bought our way out of the, any performance concerns because we can use cloud scale infrastructure to scale up and scale down as we need. And so we don't have the concerns that we don't have enough hardware today to process what we want to do, but want to achieve. We can just scale up when we need it and scale back down. So open source has really allowed us to maintain the being at the cutting edge. >>So Justin, let me play devil's advocate here a little bit, and I've talked to JAK about this and you know, obviously her vision is there's an open source that, that data mesh is open source, an open source tooling, and it's not a proprietary, you know, you're not gonna buy a data mesh. You're gonna build it with, with open source toolings and, and vendors like you are gonna support it, but come back to sort of today, you can get to market with a proprietary solution faster. I'm gonna make that statement. You tell me if it's a lie and then you can say, okay, we support Apache iceberg. We're gonna support open source tooling, take a company like VMware, not really in the data business, but how, the way they embraced Kubernetes and, and you know, every new open source thing that comes along, they say, we do that too. Why can't proprietary systems do that and be as effective? >>Yeah, well, I think at least with the, within the data landscape saying that you can access open data formats like iceberg or, or others is, is a bit dis disingenuous because really what you're selling to your customer is a certain degree of performance, a certain SLA, and you know, those cloud data warehouses that can reach beyond their own proprietary storage drop all the performance that they were able to provide. So it is, it reminds me kind of, of, again, going back 10 or 12 years ago when everybody had a connector to hit and that they thought that was the solution, right? But the reality was, you know, a connector was not the same as running workloads in had back then. And I think, think similarly, you know, being able to connect to an external table that lives in an open data format, you know, you're, you're not going to give it the performance that your customers are accustomed to. And at the end of the day, they're always going to be predisposed. They're always going to be incentivized to get that data ingested into the data warehouse, cuz that's where they have control. And you know, the bottom line is the database industry has really been built around vendor lockin. I mean, from the start, how, how many people love Oracle today, but our customers, nonetheless, I think, you know, lockin is, is, is part of this industry. And I think that's really what we're trying to change with open data formats. >>Well, it's interesting reminded when I, you know, I see the, the gas price, the TSR gas price I, I drive up and then I say, oh, that's the cash price credit card. I gotta pay 20 cents more, but okay. But so the, the argument then, so let me, let me come back to you, Justin. So what's wrong with saying, Hey, we support open data formats, but yeah, you're gonna get better performance if you, if you, you keep it into our closed system, are you saying that long term that's gonna come back and bite you cuz you're gonna end up. You mentioned Oracle, you mentioned Teradata. Yeah. That's by, by implication, you're saying that's where snowflake customers are headed. >>Yeah, absolutely. I think this is a movie that, you know, we've all seen before. At least those of us who've been in the industry long enough to, to see this movie play over a couple times. So I do think that's the future. And I think, you know, I loved what Richard said. I actually wrote it down cause I thought it was amazing quote. He said, it buys us the ability to be unsure of the future. That that pretty much says it all the, the future is unknowable and the reality is using open data formats. You remain interoperable with any technology you want to utilize. If you want to use smart to train a machine learning model and you wanna use Starbust to query be a sequel, that's totally cool. They can both work off the same exact, you know, data, data sets by contrast, if you're, you know, focused on a proprietary model, then you're kind of locked in again to that model. I think the same applies to data, sharing to data products, to a wide variety of, of aspects of the data landscape that a proprietary approach kind of closes you and, and locks you in. >>So I would say this Richard, I'd love to get your thoughts on it. Cause I talked to a lot of Oracle customers, not as many te data customers, but, but a lot of Oracle customers and they, you know, they'll admit yeah, you know, they Jimin some price and the license cost they give, but we do get value out of it. And so my question to you, Richard, is, is do the, let's call it data warehouse systems or the proprietary systems. Are they gonna deliver a greater ROI sooner? And is that in allure of, of that customers, you know, are attracted to, or can open platforms deliver as fast an ROI? >>I think the answer to that is it can depend a bit. It depends on your business's skillset. So we are lucky that we have a number of proprietary teams that work in databases that provide our operational data capability. And we have teams of analytics and big data experts who can work with open data sets and open data formats. And so for those different teams, they can get to an ROI more quickly with different technologies for the business though, we can't do better for our operational data stores than proprietary databases. Today we can back off very tight SLAs to them. We can demonstrate reliability from millions of hours of those databases being run enterprise scale, but for an analytics workload where increasing our business is growing in that direction, we can't do better than open data formats with cloud based data mesh type technologies. And so it's not a simple answer. That one will always be the right answer for our business. We definitely have times when proprietary databases provide a capability that we couldn't easily represent or replicate with open technologies. >>Yeah. Richard, stay with you. You mentioned, you know, you know, some things before that, that strike me, you know, the data brick snowflake, you know, thing is a lot of fun for analysts like me. You've got data bricks coming at it. Richard, you mentioned you have a lot of rockstar, data engineers, data bricks coming at it from a data engineering heritage. You get snowflake coming at it from an analytics heritage. Those two worlds are, are colliding people like P Sanji Mohan said, you know what? I think it's actually harder to play in the data engineering. So I E it's easier to for data engineering world to go into the analytics world versus the reverse, but thinking about up and coming engineers and developers preparing for this future of data engineering and data analytics, how, how should they be thinking about the future? What, what's your advice to those young people? >>So I think I'd probably fall back on general programming skill sets. So the advice that I saw years ago was if you have open source technologies, the pythons and Javas on your CV, you command a 20% pay, hike over people who can only do proprietary programming languages. And I think that's true of data technologies as well. And from a business point of view, that makes sense. I'd rather spend the money that I save on proprietary licenses on better engineers, because they can provide more value to the business that can innovate us beyond our competitors. So I think I would my advice to people who are starting here or trying to build teams to capitalize on data assets is begin with open license, free capabilities, because they're very cheap to experiment with. And they generate a lot of interest from people who want to join you as a business. And you can make them very successful early, early doors with, with your analytics journey. >>It's interesting. Again, analysts like myself, we do a lot of TCO work and have over the last 20 plus years and in the world of Oracle, you know, normally it's the staff, that's the biggest nut in total cost of ownership, not an Oracle. It's the it's the license cost is by far the biggest component in the, in the blame pie. All right, Justin, help us close out this segment. We've been talking about this sort of data mesh open, closed snowflake data bricks. Where does Starburst sort of as this engine for the data lake data lake house, the data warehouse, it fit in this, in this world. >>Yeah. So our view on how the future ultimately unfolds is we think that data lakes will be a natural center of gravity for a lot of the reasons that we described open data formats, lowest total cost of ownership, because you get to choose the cheapest storage available to you. Maybe that's S3 or Azure data lake storage, or Google cloud storage, or maybe it's on-prem object storage that you bought at a, at a really good price. So ultimately storing a lot of data in a data lake makes a lot of sense, but I think what makes our perspective unique is we still don't think you're gonna get everything there either. We think that basically centralization of all your data assets is just an impossible endeavor. And so you wanna be able to access data that lives outside of the lake as well. So we kind of think of the lake as maybe the biggest place by volume in terms of how much data you have, but to, to have comprehensive analytics and to truly understand your business and understand it holistically, you need to be able to go access other data sources as well. And so that's the role that we wanna play is to be a single point of access for our customers, provide the right level of fine grained access control so that the right people have access to the right data and ultimately make it easy to discover and consume via, you know, the creation of data products as well. >>Great. Okay. Thanks guys. Right after this quick break, we're gonna be back to debate whether the cloud data model that we see emerging and the so-called modern data stack is really modern, or is it the same wine new bottle when it comes to data architectures, you're watching the cube, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage.