>> Now we're recording. >> All right. >> Appreciate that, Hannah. >> Yeah, so I mean, I think in general we continue to do very, very well as a company. I think like everybody, there's economic headwinds today that are unavoidable, but I think we have a couple things going for us. One, we're in the cyberspace, which I think is, for the most part, recession proof as an industry. I think the impact of a recession will impact some vendors and some categories, but in general, I think the industry is pretty resilient. It's like the power industry, no? Recession or not, you still need electricity to your house. Cybersecurity is almost becoming a utility like that as far as the needs of companies go. I think for us, we also have the ability to do the security, the security operations, for a lot of companies, and if you look at the value proposition, the ROI for the cost of less than one to maybe two or three, depending on how big you are as a customer, what you'd have to pay for half to three security operations people, we can give you a full security operations. And so the ROI is is almost kind of brain dead simple, and so that keeps us going pretty well. And I think the other areas, we remove all that complexity for people. So in a world where you got other problems to worry about, handling all the security complexity is something that adds to that ROI. So for us, I think what we're seeing is mostly is some of the larger deals are taking a little bit longer than they have, some of the large enterprise deals, 'cause I think they are being a little more cautious about how they spend it, but in general, business is still kind of cranking along. >> Anything you can share with me that you guys have talked about publicly in terms of any metrics, or what can you tell me other than cranking? >> Yeah, I mean, I would just say we're still very, very high growth, so I think our financial profile would kind of still put us clearly in the cyber unicorn position, but I think other than that, we don't really share business metrics as a private- >> Okay, so how about headcount? >> Still growing. So we're not growing as fast as we've been growing, but I don't think we were anyway. I think we kind of, we're getting to the point of critical mass. We'll start to grow in a more kind of normal course and speed. I don't think we overhired like a lot of companies did in the past, even though we added, almost doubled the size of the company in the last 18 months. So we're still hiring, but very kind of targeted to certain roles going forward 'cause I do think we're kind of at critical mass in some of the other functions. >> You disclose headcount or no? >> We do not. >> You don't, okay. And never have? >> Not that I'm aware of, no. >> Okay, on the macro, I don't know if security's recession proof, but it's less susceptible, let's say. I've had Nikesh Arora on recently, we're at Palo Alto's Ignite, and he was saying, "Look," it's just like you were saying, "Larger deal's a little harder." A lot of times customers, he was saying customers are breaking larger deals into smaller deals, more POCs, more approvals, more people to get through the approval, not whole, blah, blah, blah. Now they're a different animal, I understand, but are you seeing similar trends, and how are you dealing with that? >> Yeah, I think the exact same trends, and I think it's just in a world where spending a dollar matters, I think a lot more oversight comes into play, a lot more reviewers, and can you shave it down here? Can you reduce the scope of the project to save money there? And I think it just caused a lot of those things. I think, in the large enterprise, I think most of those deals for companies like us and Palo and CrowdStrike and kind of the upper tier companies, they'll still go through. I think they'll just going to take a lot longer, and, yeah, maybe they're 80% of what they would've been otherwise, but there's still a lot of business to be had out there. >> So how are you dealing with that? I mean, you're talking about you double the size of the company. Is it kind of more focused on go-to-market, more sort of, maybe not overlay, but sort of SE types that are going to be doing more handholding. How have you dealt with that? Or have you just sort of said, "Hey, it is what it is, and we're not going to, we're not going to tactically respond to. We got long-term direction"? >> Yeah, I think it's more the latter. I think for us, it's we've gone through all these things before. It just takes longer now. So a lot of the steps we're taking are the same steps. We're still involved in a lot of POCs, we're involved in a lot of demos, and I don't think that changed. It's just the time between your POC and when someone sends you the PO, there's five more people now got to review things and go through a budget committee and all sorts of stuff like that. I think where we're probably focused more now is adding more and more capabilities just so we continue to be on the front foot of innovation and being relevant to the market, and trying to create more differentiators for us and the competitors. That's something that's just built into our culture, and we don't want to slow that down. And so even though the business is still doing extremely, extremely well, we want to keep investing in kind of technology. >> So the deal size, is it fair to say the initial deal size for new accounts, while it may be smaller, you're adding more capabilities, and so over time, your average contract values will go up? Are you seeing that trend? Or am I- >> Well, I would say I don't even necessarily see our average deal size has gotten smaller. I think in total, it's probably gotten a little bigger. I think what happens is when something like this happens, the old cream rises to the top thing, I think, comes into play, and you'll see some organizations instead of doing a deal with three or four vendors, they may want to pick one or two and really kind of put a lot of energy behind that. For them, they're maybe spending a little less money, but for those vendors who are amongst those getting chosen, I think they're doing pretty good. So our average deal size is pretty stable. For us, it's just a temporal thing. It's just the larger deals take a little bit longer. I don't think we're seeing much of a deal velocity difference in our mid-market commercial spaces, but in the large enterprise it's a little bit slower. But for us, we have ambitious plans in our strategy or on how we want to execute and what we want to build, and so I think we want to just continue to make sure we go down that path technically. >> So I have some questions on sort of the target markets and the cohorts you're going after, and I have some product questions. I know we're somewhat limited on time, but the historical focus has been on SMB, and I know you guys have gone in into enterprise. I'm curious as to how that's going. Any guidance you can give me on mix? Or when I talk to the big guys, right, you know who they are, the big managed service providers, MSSPs, and they're like, "Poo poo on Arctic Wolf," like, "Oh, they're (groans)." I said, "Yeah, that's what they used to say about the PC. It's just a toy. Or Microsoft SQL Server." But so I kind of love that narrative for you guys, but I'm curious from your words as to, what is that enterprise? How's the historical business doing, and how's the entrance into the enterprise going? What kind of hurdles are you having, blockers are you having to remove? Any color you can give me there would be super helpful. >> Yeah, so I think our commercial S&B business continues to do really good. Our mid-market is a very strong market for us. And I think while a lot of companies like to focus purely on large enterprise, there's a lot more mid-market companies, and a much larger piece of the IT puzzle collectively is in mid-market than it is large enterprise. That being said, we started to get pulled into the large enterprise not because we're a toy but because we're quite a comprehensive service. And so I think what we're trying to do from a roadmap perspective is catch up with some of the kind of capabilities that a large enterprise would want from us that a potential mid-market customer wouldn't. In some case, it's not doing more. It's just doing it different. Like, so we have a very kind of hands-on engagement with some of our smaller customers, something we call our concierge. Some of the large enterprises want more of a hybrid where they do some stuff and you do some stuff. And so kind of building that capability into the platform is something that's really important for us. Just how we engage with them as far as giving 'em access to their data, the certain APIs they want, things of that nature, what we're building out for large enterprise, but the demand by large enterprise on our business is enormous. And so it's really just us kind of catching up with some of the kind of the features that they want that we lack today, but many of 'em are still signing up with us, obviously, and in lieu of that, knowing that it's coming soon. And so I think if you look at the growth of our large enterprise, it's one of our fastest growing segments, and I think it shows anything but we're a toy. I would be shocked, frankly, if there's an MSSP, and, of course, we don't see ourself as an MSSP, but I'd be shocked if any of them operate a platform at the scale that ours operates. >> Okay, so wow. A lot I want to unpack there. So just to follow up on that last question, you don't see yourself as an MSSP because why, you see yourselves as a technology platform? >> Yes, I mean, the vast, vast, vast majority of what we deliver is our own technology. So we integrate with third-party solutions mostly to bring in that telemetry. So we've built our own platform from the ground up. We have our own threat intelligence, our own detection logic. We do have our own agents and network sensors. MSSP is typically cobbling together other tools, third party off-the-shelf tools to run their SOC. Ours is all homegrown technology. So I have a whole group called Arctic Wolf Labs, is building, just cranking out ML-based detections, building out infrastructure to take feeds in from a variety of different sources. We have a full integration kind of effort where we integrate into other third parties. So when we go into a customer, we can leverage whatever they have, but at the same time, we produce some tech that if they're lacking in a certain area, we can provide that tech, particularly around things like endpoint agents and network sensors and the like. >> What about like identity, doing your own identity? >> So we don't do our own identity, but we take feeds in from things like Okta and Active Directory and the like, and we have detection logic built on top of that. So part of our value add is we were XDR before XDR was the cool thing to talk about, meaning we can look across multiple attack surfaces and come to a security conclusion where most EDR vendors started with looking just at the endpoint, right? And then they called themselves XDR because now they took in a network feed, but they still looked at it as a separate network detection. We actually look at the things across multiple attack surfaces and stitch 'em together to look at that from a security perspective. In some cases we have automatic detections that will fire. In other cases, we can surface some to a security professional who can go start pulling on that thread. >> So you don't need to purchase CrowdStrike software and integrate it. You have your own equivalent essentially. >> Well, we'll take a feed from the CrowdStrike endpoint into our platform. We don't have to rely on their detections and their alerts, and things of that nature. Now obviously anything they discover we pull in as well, it's just additional context, but we have all our own tech behind it. So we operate kind of at an MSSP scale. We have a similar value proposition in the sense that we'll use whatever the customer has, but once that data kind of comes into our pipeline, it's all our own homegrown tech from there. >> But I mean, what I like about the MSSP piece of your business is it's very high touch. It's very intimate. What I like about what you're saying is that it's software-like economics, so software, software-like part of it. >> That's what makes us the unicorn, right? Is we do have, our concierges is very hands-on. We continue to drive automation that makes our concierge security professionals more efficient, but we always want that customer to have that concierge person as, is almost an extension to their security team, or in some cases, for companies that don't even have a security team, as their security team. As we go down the path, as I mentioned, one of the things we want to be able to do is start to have a more flexible model where we can have that high touch if you want it. We can have the high touch on certain occasions, and you can do stuff. We can have low touch, like we can span the spectrum, but we never want to lose our kind of unique value proposition around the concierge, but we also want to make sure that we're providing an interface that any customer would want to use. >> So given that sort of software-like economics, I mean, services companies need this too, but especially in software, things like net revenue retention and churn are super important. How are those metrics looking? What can you share with me there? >> Yeah, I mean, again, we don't share those metrics publicly, but all's I can continue to repeat is, if you looked at all of our financial metrics, I think you would clearly put us in the unicorn category. I think very few companies are going to have the level of growth that we have on the amount of ARR that we have with the net revenue retention and the churn and upsell. All those aspects continue to be very, very strong for us. >> I want to go back to the sort of enterprise conversation. So large enterprises would engage with you as a complement to their existing SOC, correct? Is that a fair statement or not necessarily? >> It's in some cases. In some cases, they're looking to not have a SOC. So we run into a lot of cases where they want to replace their SIEM, and they want a solution like Arctic Wolf to do that. And so there's a poll, I can't remember, I think it was Forrester, IDC, one of them did it a couple years ago, and they found out that 70% of large enterprises do not want to build the SOC, and it's not 'cause they don't need one, it's 'cause they can't afford it, they can't staff it, they don't have the expertise. And you think about if you're a tech company or a bank, or something like that, of course you can do it, but if you're an international plumbing distributor, you're not going to (chuckles), someone's not going to graduate from Stanford with a cybersecurity degree and go, "Cool, I want to go work for a plumbing distributor in their SOC," right? So they're going to have trouble kind of bringing in the right talent, and as a result, it's difficult to go make a multimillion-dollar investment into a SOC if you're not going to get the quality people to operate it, so they turn to companies like us. >> Got it, so, okay, so you're talking earlier about capabilities that large enterprises require that there might be some gaps, you might lack some features. A couple questions there. One is, when you do some of those, I inferred some of that is integrations. Are those integrations sort of one-off snowflakes or are you finding that you're able to scale those across the large enterprises? That's my first question. >> Yeah, so most of the integrations are pretty straightforward. I think where we run into things that are kind of enterprise-centric, they definitely want open APIs, they want access to our platform, which we don't do today, which we are going to be doing, but we don't do that yet today. They want to do more of a SIEM replacement. So we're really kind of what we call an open XDR platform, so there's things that we would need to build to kind of do raw log ingestion. I mean, we do this today. We have raw log ingestion, we have log storage, we have log searching, but there's like some of the compliance scenarios that they need out of their SIEM. We don't do those today. And so that's kind of holding them back from getting off their SIEM and going fully onto a solution like ours. Then the other one is kind of the level of customization, so the ability to create a whole bunch of custom rules, and that ties back to, "I want to get off my SIEM. I've built all these custom rules in my SIEM, and it's great that you guys do all this automatic AI stuff in the background, but I need these very specific things to be executed on." And so trying to build an interface for them to be able to do that and then also simulate it, again, because, no matter how big they are running their SIEM and their SOC... Like, we talked to one of the largest financial institutions in the world. As far as we were told, they have the largest individual company SOC in the world, and we operate almost 15 times their size. So we always have to be careful because this is a cloud-based native platform, but someone creates some rule that then just craters the performance of the whole platform, so we have to build kind of those guardrails around it. So those are the things primarily that the large enterprises are asking for. Most of those issues are not holding them back from coming. They want to know they're coming, and we're working on all of those. >> Cool, and see, just aside, I was talking to CISO the other day, said, "If it weren't for my compliance and audit group, I would chuck my SIEM." I mean, everybody wants to get rid of their SIEM. >> I've never met anyone who likes their SIEM. >> Do you feel like you've achieved product market fit in the larger enterprise or is that still something that you're sorting out? >> So I think we know, like, we're on a path to do that. We're on a provable path to do that, so I don't think there's any surprises left. I think everything that we know we need to do for that is someone's writing code for it today. It's just a matter of getting it through the system and getting into production. So I feel pretty good about it. I think that's why we are seeing such a high growth rate in our large enterprise business, 'cause we share that feedback with some of those key customers. We have a Customer Advisory Board that we share a lot of this information with. So yeah, I mean, I feel pretty good about what we need to do. We're certainly operate at large enterprise scales, so taking in the amount of the volume of data they're going to have and the types of integrations they need. We're comfortable with that. It's just more or less the interfaces that a large enterprise would want that some of the smaller companies don't ask for. >> Do you have enough tenure in the market to get a sense as to stickiness or even indicators that will lead toward retention? Have you been at it long enough in the enterprise or you still, again, figuring that out? >> Yeah, no, I think we've been at it long enough, and our retention rates are extremely high. If anything, kind of our net retention rates, well over 100% 'cause we have opportunities to upsell into new modules and expanding the coverage of what they have today. I think the areas that if you cornered enterprise that use us and things they would complain about are things I just told you about, right? There's still some things I want to do in my Splunk, and I need an API to pull my data out and put it in my Splunk and stuff like that, and those are the things we want to enable. >> Yeah, so I can't wait till you guys go public because you got Snowflake up here, and you got Veritas down here, and I'm very curious as to where you guys go. When's the IPO? You want to tell me that? (chuckling) >> Unfortunately, it's not up to us right now. You got to get the markets- >> Yeah, I hear you. Right, if the market were better. Well, if the market were better, you think you'd be out? >> Yeah, I mean, we'd certainly be a viable candidate to go. >> Yeah, there you go. I have a question for you because I don't have a SOC. I run a small business with my co-CEO. We're like 30, 40 people W-2s, we got another 50 or so contractors, and I'm always like have one eye, sleep with one eye open 'cause of security. What is your ideal SMB customer? Think S. >> Yeah. >> Would I fit? >> Yeah, I mean you're you're right in the sweet spot. I think where the company started and where we still have a lot of value proposition, which is companies like, like you said it, you sleep with one eye open, but you don't have necessarily the technical acumen to be able to do that security for yourself, and that's where we fit in. We bring kind of this whole security, we call it Security Operations Cloud, to bear, and we have some of the best professionals in the world who can basically be your SOC for less than it would cost you to hire somebody right out of college to do IT stuff. And so the value proposition's there. You're going to get the best of the best, providing you a kind of a security service that you couldn't possibly build on your own, and that way you can go to bed at night and close both eyes. >> So (chuckling) I'm sure something else would keep me up. But so in thinking about that, our Amazon bill keeps growing and growing and growing. What would it, and I presume I can engage with you on a monthly basis, right? As a consumption model, or how's the pricing work? >> Yeah, so there's two models that we have. So typically the kind of the monthly billing type of models would be through one of our MSP partners, where they have monthly billing capabilities. Usually direct with us is more of a longer term deal, could be one, two, or three, or it's up to the customer. And so we have both of those engagement models. Were doing more and more and more through MSPs today because of that model you just described, and they do kind of target the very S in the SMB as well. >> I mean, rough numbers, even ranges. If I wanted to go with the MSP monthly, I mean, what would a small company like mine be looking at a month? >> Honestly, I do not even know the answer to that. >> We're not talking hundreds of thousands of dollars a month? >> No. God, no. God, no. No, no, no. >> I mean, order of magnitude, we're talking thousands, tens of thousands? >> Thousands, on a monthly basis. Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. Thousands per month. So if I were to budget between 20 and $50,000 a year, I'm definitely within the envelope. Is that fair? I mean, I'm giving a wide range >> That's fair. just to try to make- >> No, that's fair. >> And if I wanted to go direct with you, I would be signing up for a longer term agreement, correct, like I do with Salesforce? >> Yeah, yeah, a year. A year would, I think, be the minimum for that, and, yeah, I think the budget you set aside is kind of right in the sweet spot there. >> Yeah, I'm interested, I'm going to... Have a sales guy call me (chuckles) somehow. >> All right, will do. >> No, I'm serious. I want to start >> I will. >> investigating these things because we sell to very large organizations. I mean, name a tech company. That's our client base, except for Arctic Wolf. We should talk about that. And increasingly they're paranoid about data protection agreements, how you're protecting your data, our data. We write a lot of software and deliver it as part of our services, so it's something that's increasingly important. It's certainly a board level discussion and beyond, and most large organizations and small companies oftentimes don't think about it or try not to. They just put their head in the sand and, "We don't want to be doing that," so. >> Yeah, I will definitely have someone get in touch with you. >> Cool. Let's see. Anything else you can tell me on the product side? Are there things that you're doing that we talked about, the gaps at the high end that you're, some of the features that you're building in, which was super helpful. Anything in the SMB space that you want to share? >> Yeah, I think the biggest thing that we're doing technically now is really trying to drive more and more automation and efficiency through our operations, and that comes through really kind of a generous use of AI. So building models around more efficient detections based upon signal, but also automating the actions of our operators so we can start to learn through the interface. When they do A and B, they always do C. Well, let's just do C for them, stuff like that. Then also building more automation as far as the response back to third-party solutions as well so we can remediate more directly on third-party products without having to get into the consoles or having our customers do it. So that's really just trying to drive efficiency in the system, and that helps provide better security outcomes but also has a big impact on our margins as well. >> I know you got to go, but I want to show you something real quick. I have data. I do a weekly program called "Breaking Analysis," and I have a partner called ETR, Enterprise Technology Research, and they have a platform. I don't know if you can see this. They have a survey platform, and each quarter, they do a survey of about 1,500 IT decision makers. They also have a survey on, they call ETS, Emerging Technology Survey. So it's private companies. And I don't want to go into it too much, but this is a sentiment graph. This is net sentiment. >> Just so you know, all I see is a white- >> Yeah, just a white bar. >> Oh, that's weird. Oh, whiteboard. Oh, here we go. How about that? >> There you go. >> Yeah, so this is a sentiment graph. So this is net sentiment and this is mindshare. And if I go to Arctic Wolf... So it's typical security, right? The 8,000 companies. And when I go here, what impresses me about this is you got a decent mindshare, that's this axis, but you've also got an N in the survey. It's about 1,500 in the survey, It's 479 Arctic Wolf customers responded to this. 57% don't know you. Oh, sorry, they're aware of you, but no plan to evaluate; 19% plan to evaluate, 7% are evaluating; 11%, no plan to utilize even though they've evaluated you; and 1% say they've evaluated you and plan to utilize. It's a small percentage, but actually it's not bad in the random sample of the world about that. And so obviously you want to get that number up, but this is a really impressive position right here that I wanted to just share with you. I do a lot of analysis weekly, and this is a really, it's completely independent survey, and you're sort of separating from the pack, as you can see. So kind of- >> Well, it's good to see that. And I think that just is a further indicator of what I was telling you. We continue to have a strong financial performance. >> Yeah, in a good market. Okay, well, thanks you guys. And hey, if I can get this recording, Hannah, I may even figure out how to write it up. (chuckles) That would be super helpful. >> Yes. We'll get that up. >> And David or Hannah, if you can send me David's contact info so I can get a salesperson in touch with him. (Hannah chuckling) >> Yeah, great. >> Yeah, we'll work on that as well. Thanks so much for both your time. >> Thanks a lot. It was great talking with you. >> Thanks, you guys. Great to meet you. >> Thank you. >> Bye. >> Bye.

>>Welcome back to a blueprint for trusted infrastructure. We're here with Rob Emsley. Who's the director of product marketing for data protection and cyber security. Rob. Good to see you a new role. >>Yeah. Good to be back, Dave. Good to see you. Yeah, it's been a while since we chatted last and you know, one of the changes in, in my world is that I've expanded my responsibilities beyond data protection marketing, to also focus on cyber security marketing specifically for our infrastructure solutions group. So certainly that's, you know, something that really has driven us to, you know, to come and have this conversation with you today. >>So data protection obviously has become an increasingly important component of the cyber security space. I, I don't think necessarily of, you know, traditional backup and recovery as security it's to me, it's an adjacency. I know some companies have said, oh yeah, now we're a security company. They're kind of chasing the valuation for sure. Bubble. Dell's interesting because you, you have, you know, data protection in the form of backup and recovery and data management, but you also have security, you know, direct security capabilities. So you're sort of bringing those two worlds together and it sounds like your responsibility is to, to connect those, those dots. Is that right? >>Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think that the reality is, is that security is a, a multi-layer discipline. I think the, the days of thinking that it's one or another technology that you can use or process that you can use to make your organization secure long gone. I mean, certainly you actually correct. If you think about the backup and recovery space, I mean, people have been doing that for years, you know, certainly backup and recovery. It's all about the recovery. It's all about getting yourself backup and running when bad things happen. And one of the realities, unfortunately today is that one of the worst things that can happen is cyber attacks. You know, ransomware, malware are all things that are top of mind for all organizations today. And that's why you see a lot of technology and a lot of innovation going into the backup and recovery space, because if you have a copy, a good copy of your data, then that is really the, the first place you go to recover from a cyber attack. >>And that's why it's so important. The reality is is that unfortunately the cyber criminals keep on getting smarter. I don't know how it happens, but one of the things that is happening is that the days of them just going after your production data are no longer the only challenge that you have, they go after your, your backup data as well. So over the last half a decade, Dell technologies with its backup and recovery portfolio has introduced the concept of isolated cyber recovery volts. And that is really the, you know, we've had many conversations about that over the years. Yeah. And that's really a big tenant of what we do in the debt protection portfolio. >>So this idea of, of cybersecurity resilience, that definition is evolving. What does it mean to you? >>Yeah, I think the, the analyst team over at Gartner, they wrote a, a very insightful paper called you will be hacked, embraced the breach. And the whole basis of this analysis is so much money's been spent on prevention is that what's outta balance is the amount of budget that companies have spent on cyber resilience and cyber resilience is based upon the premise that you will be hacked. You have to embrace that fact and be ready and prepared to bring yourself back into business. You know, and that's really where cyber resiliency is very, very different than cyber security and prevention, you know, and I think that balance of get your security disciplines well funded, get your defenses as good as you can get them, but make sure that if the inevitable happens and you find yourself compromised that you have a great recovery plan and certainly a great recovery plan, it's really the basis of any good solid data protection backup from recovery philosophy. >>So if I had to do a SWOT analysis, we don't have to do the w OT, but let's focus on the S what would you say are Dell's strengths in this, you know, cybersecurity space, as it relates to data protection. >>One is we've been doing it a long time. You know, we talk a lot about Dell's data protection being proven and modern. You know, certainly the experience that we've had over literally three decades of providing enterprise scale data protection solutions to our customers has really allowed us to have a lot of insight into what works and what doesn't, as I mentioned to you, one of the unique differentiators of our solution is the cyber recovery vaulting solution that we introduce a little over five years ago, five, six years, power protect cyber recovery is something which has become a unique capability for customers to adopt on top of their investment in Dell technologies, data protection, you know, the, the unique elements of our solution already threefold, and it's, we call them the three eyes. It's isolation, it's a mutability and its intelligence. And the, the isolation part is really so important because you need to reduce the attack surface of your good known copies of data. >>You know, you need to put it in a location that the bad actors can't get to it. And that really is the, the, the, the essence of a cyber recovery vault. Interestingly enough, you're starting to see the market throw out that word, you know, from many other places, but really it comes down to having a real discipline that you don't allow the security of your cyber recovery vault to be compromised insofar as allowing it to be controlled from outside of the vault, you know, allowing it to be controlled by your backup application. Our cyber recovery vaulting technology is independent of the backup infrastructure. It uses it, but it controls its own security. And that is so, so important. It's like having a, a vault that the only way to open it is from the inside, you know, and think about that. If you think about, you know, vaults in banks or vaults in your home, normally you have a keypad on the outside, think of our cyber recovery vault as having its security controlled from inside of the vault. >>So nobody can get in, nothing can get in unless it's already in. And if it's already in, then it's trusted. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So isolation's the key. And then you, you mentioned immutability is the second piece. >>Yeah, so I, mutability is, is also something which has been around for a long time. People talk about backup mutability or immutable backup copies. So immutability is just the, the, the additional technology that allows the data that's inside of the vault to be unchangeable, you know, but again, that immutability, you know, your mileage varies, you know, when you look across the, the different offers that are out there in the market, especially in the backup industry, you make a very valid point earlier that the backup vendors in the market seem to be security, washing their marketing messages. I mean, everybody is leaning into the ever present danger of cyber security, not a bad thing, but the reality is is that you have to have the technology to back it up, you know, quite literally, >>Yeah, yeah, no pun intended. Right. And then actually pun intended. Now what about the intelligence piece of it? That's that's AI ML, where does that fit >>For sure. So the intelligence piece is delivered by a solution called cyber sense. And cyber sense for us is what really gives you the confidence that what you have in your cyber recovery volt is a good clean copy of data. So it's looking at the backup copies that get driven into the cyber volt, and it's looking for anomalies. So it's not looking for signatures of malware. You know, that's what your antivirus software does. That's what your endpoint protection software does. That's on the prevention side of the equation. But what we're looking for is we're looking to ensure that the data that you need when all hell breaks loose is good, and that when you get a request to restore and recover your business, you go right, let's go and do it. And you don't have any concern that what you have in the vault has been compromised. >>So cyber sense is really a, a unique analytics solution in the market, based upon the fact that it, it, isn't looking at at cursory indicators of, of, of, of, of malware infection or, or, or ransomware introduction it's doing full content analytics, you know, looking at, you know, has the data in any way changed, has it suddenly become encrypted? Has it suddenly become different to how it was in the previous scan? So that anomaly detection is very, very different. It's looking for, you know, like different characteristics that really are an indicator that something is going on. And of course, if it sees it, you immediately get flagged. But the good news is, is that you always have in the vault, the previous copy of good known data, which now becomes your restore point. >>So we're talking to Rob Emsley about how data protection fits into what Dell calls DT, I, Dell trusted infrastructure. And, and I'm, I want to come back Rob to this notion of, and, or cuz I think a lot of people are skeptical. Like how can I have great security and not introduce friction into my organization? Is that an automation play? How, how does Dell tackle that problem? >>I mean, I think a lot of it is across our infrastructure is, is security has to be built in, I mean, intrinsic security within our servers, within our storage devices, within our elements of our backup infrastructure. I mean, security, multifactor authentication, you know, elements that make the overall infrastructure secure. You know, we have capabilities that, you know, allow us to identify whether or not configurations have changed. You know, we'll probably be talking about that a little bit more to you later in the segment, but the, the essence is, is security is not, not a Bolton. It has to be part of the overall infrastructure. And that's so true, certainly in the data protection space, >>Give us the, the, the bottom line on, on how you see Dell's key differentiators. Maybe you could talk about Dell, of course always talks about its portfolio, but, but why should customers, you know, lead in to Dell in, in this whole cyber resilience space, >>You know, staying on the data protection space. As I mentioned, the, the, the work we've been doing to introduce this cyber resiliency solution for debt protection is in our opinion, as good as it gets, you know, the, you know, you've spoken to a number of our, of our best customers, whether it be Bob bender from founders, federal, or more recently at Delta arches world, you spoke to Tony Bryson yep. From the town of Gilbert. And these are customers that we've had for many years that have implemented cyber recovery volts. And at the end of the day, they can now sleep at night. You know, that's really the, the peace of mind that they have is that the insurance that a data protection from Dell cyber recovery vault a para protect cyber recovery solution, gives them, you know, really allows them to, you know, just have the assurance that they don't have to pay a ransom if they have a, an insider threat issue. And you know, all the way down to data deletion is they know that what's in the cyber recovery vault is good and ready for them to recover from. >>Great, well, Rob, congratulations on the new scope of responsibility. I like how you know, your organization is expanding as the threat surface is expanding. As we said, data protection becoming an adjacency to, to security, not security in and of itself. A key component of a comprehensive security strategy. Rob Emsley. Thank you for coming back in the cube. Good to see you again. >>You too, Dave. Thanks. >>All right. In a moment, I'll be back to wrap up a blueprint for trusted infrastructure. 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the cyber security landscape has changed dramatically over the past 24 to 36 months rapid cloud migration has created a new layer of security defense sure but that doesn't mean csos can relax in many respects it further complicates or at least changes the ciso's scope of responsibilities in particular the threat surface has expanded and that creates more seams and cisos have to make sure their teams pick up where the hyperscaler clouds leave off application developers have become a critical execution point for cyber assurance shift left is the kind of new buzz phrase for devs but organizations still have to shield right meaning the operational teams must continue to partner with secops to make sure infrastructure is resilient so it's no wonder that in etr's latest survey of nearly 1500 cios and it buyers that business technology executives cite security as their number one priority well ahead of other critical technology initiatives including collaboration software cloud computing and analytics rounding out the top four but budgets are under pressure and csos have to prioritize it's not like they have an open checkbook they have to contend with other key initiatives like those just mentioned to secure the funding and what about zero trust can you go out and buy xero trust or is it a framework a mindset in a series of best practices applied to create a security consciousness throughout the organization can you implement zero trust in other words if a machine or human is not explicitly allowed access then access is denied can you implement that policy without constricting organizational agility the question is what's the most practical way to apply that premise and what role does infrastructure play as the enforcer how does automation play in the equation the fact is that today's approach to cyber resilient type resilience can't be an either or it has to be an and conversation meaning you have to ensure data protection while at the same time advancing the mission of the organization with as little friction as possible and don't even talk to me about the edge that's really going to keep you up at night hello and welcome to the special cube presentation a blueprint for trusted infrastructure made possible by dell technologies in this program we explore the critical role that trusted infrastructure plays in cyber security strategies how organizations should think about the infrastructure side of the cyber security equation and how dell specifically approaches securing infrastructure for your business we'll dig into what it means to transform and evolve toward a modern security infrastructure that's both trusted and agile first up are pete gear and steve kenniston they're both senior cyber security consultants at dell technologies and they're going to talk about the company's philosophy and approach to trusted infrastructure and then we're going to speak to paris arcadi who's a senior consultant for storage at dell technologies to understand where and how storage plays in this trusted infrastructure world and then finally rob emsley who heads product marketing for data protection and cyber security he's going to take a deeper dive with rob into data protection and explain how it has become a critical component of a comprehensive cyber security strategy okay let's get started pete gear steve kenniston welcome to the cube thanks for coming into the marlboro studios today great to be here dave thanks dave good to see you great to see you guys pete start by talking about the security landscape you heard my little rap up front what are you seeing i thought you wrapped it up really well and you touched on all the key points right technology is ubiquitous today it's everywhere it's no longer confined to a monolithic data center it lives at the edge it lives in front of us it lives in our pockets and smartphones along with that is data and as you said organizations are managing sometimes 10 to 20 times the amount of data that they were just five years ago and along with that cyber crime has become a very profitable enterprise in fact it's been more than 10 years since uh the nsa chief actually called cyber crime the biggest transfer of wealth in history that was 10 years ago and we've seen nothing but accelerating cyber crime and really sophistication of how those attacks are perpetrated and so the new security landscape is really more of an evolution we're finally seeing security catch up with all of the technology adoption all the build out the work from home and work from anywhere that we've seen over the last couple of years we're finally seeing organizations and really it goes beyond the i t directors it's a board level discussion today security's become a board level discussion yeah i think that's true as well it's like it used to be the security was okay the secops team you're responsible for security now you've got the developers are involved the business lines are involved it's part of onboarding for most companies you know steve this concept of zero trust it was kind of a buzzword before the pandemic and i feel like i've often said it's now become a mandate but it's it's it's still fuzzy to a lot of people how do you guys think about zero trust what does it mean to you how does it fit yeah i thought again i thought your opening was fantastic in in this whole lead into to what is zero trust it had been a buzzword for a long time and now ever since the federal government came out with their implementation or or desire to drive zero trust a lot more people are taking a lot more seriously because i don't think they've seen the government do this but ultimately let's see ultimately it's just like you said right if if you don't have trust to those particular devices uh applications or data you can't get at it the question is and and you phrase it perfectly can you implement that as well as allow the business to be as agile as it needs to be in order to be competitive because we're seeing with your whole notion around devops and the ability to kind of build make deploy build make deploy right they still need that functionality but it also needs to be trusted it needs to be secure and things can't get away from you yeah so it's interesting we attended every uh reinforce since 2019 and the narrative there is hey everything in this in the cloud is great you know and this narrative around oh security is a big problem is you know doesn't help the industry the fact is that the big hyperscalers they're not strapped for talent but csos are they don't have the the capabilities to really apply all these best practices they're they're playing whack-a-mole so they look to companies like yours to take their r your r d and bake it into security products and solutions so what are the critical aspects of the so-called dell trusted infrastructure that we should be thinking about yeah well dell trusted infrastructure for us is a way for us to describe uh the the work that we do through design development and even delivery of our it system so dell trusted infrastructure includes our storage it includes our servers our networking our data protection our hyper converged everything that infrastructure always has been it's just that today customers consume that infrastructure at the edge as a service in a multi-cloud environment i mean i view the cloud as really a way for organizations to become more agile and to become more flexible and also to control costs i don't think organizations move to the cloud or move to a multi-cloud environment to enhance security so i don't see cloud computing as a panacea for security i see it as another attack surface and another uh aspect in front that organizations and and security organizations and departments have to manage it's part of their infrastructure today whether it's in their data center in a cloud or at the edge i mean i think it's a huge point because a lot of people think oh data's in the cloud i'm good it's like steve we've talked about oh why do i have to back up my data it's in the cloud well you might have to recover it someday so i don't know if you have anything to add to that or any additional thoughts on it no i mean i think i think like what pete was saying when it comes to when it comes to all these new vectors for attack surfaces you know people did choose the cloud in order to be more agile more flexible and all that did was open up to the csos who need to pay attention to now okay where can i possibly be attacked i need to be thinking about is that secure and part of the part of that is dell now also understands and thinks about as we're building solutions is it is it a trusted development life cycle so we have our own trusted development life cycle how many times in the past did you used to hear about vendors saying you got to patch your software because of this we think about what changes to our software and what implementations and what enhancements we deliver can actually cause from a security perspective and make sure we don't give up or or have security become a whole just in order to implement a feature we got to think about those things yeah and as pete alluded to our secure supply chain so all the way through knowing what you're going to get when you actually receive it is going to be secure and not be tampered with becomes vitally important and pete and i were talking earlier when you have tens of thousands of devices that need to be delivered whether it be storage or laptops or pcs or or whatever it is you want to be you want to know that that that those devices are can be trusted okay guys maybe pete you could talk about the how dell thinks about it's its framework and its philosophy of cyber security and then specifically what dell's advantages are relative to the competition yeah definitely dave thank you so we've talked a lot about dell as a technology provider but one thing dell also is is a partner in this larger ecosystem we realize that security whether it's a zero trust paradigm or any other kind of security environment is an ecosystem uh with a lot of different vendors so we look at three areas one is protecting data in systems we know that it starts with and ends with data that helps organizations combat threats across their entire infrastructure and what it means is dell's embedding security features consistently across our portfolios of storage servers networking the second is enhancing cyber resiliency over the last decade a lot of the funding and spending has been in protecting or trying to prevent cyber threats not necessarily in responding to and recovering from threats right we call that resiliency organizations need to build resiliency across their organization so not only can they withstand a threat but they can respond recover and continue with their operations and the third is overcoming security complexity security is hard it's more difficult because of the things we've talked about about distributed data distributed technology and and attack surfaces everywhere and so we're enabling organizations to scale confidently to continue their business but know that all all the i.t decisions that they're making um have these intrinsic security features and are built and delivered in a consistent security so those are kind of the three pillars maybe we could end on what you guys see as the key differentiators that people should know about that that dell brings to the table maybe each of you could take take a shot at that yeah i think first of all from from a holistic portfolio perspective right the uh secure supply chain and the secure development life cycle permeate through everything dell does when building things so we build things with security in mind all the way from as pete mentioned from from creation to delivery we want to make sure you have that that secure device or or asset that permeates everything from servers networking storage data protection through hyper converge through everything that to me is really a key asset because that means you can you understand when you receive something it's a trusted piece of your infrastructure i think the other core component to think about and pete mentioned as dell being a partner for making sure you can deliver these things is that even though those are that's part of our framework these pillars are our framework of how we want to deliver security it's also important to understand that we are partners and that you don't need to rip and replace but as you start to put in new components you can be you can be assured that the components that you're replacing as you're evolving as you're growing as you're moving to the cloud as you're moving to a more on-prem type services or whatever that your environment is secure i think those are two key things got it okay pete bring us home yeah i think one of one of the big advantages of dell is our scope and our scale right we're a large technology vendor that's been around for decades and we develop and sell almost every piece of technology we also know that organizations are might make different decisions and so we have a large services organization with a lot of experienced services people that can help customers along their security journey depending on whatever type of infrastructure or solutions that they're looking at the other thing we do is make it very easy to consume our technology whether that's traditional on-premise in a multi-cloud environment uh or as a service and so the best of breed technology can be consumed in any variety of fashion and know that you're getting that consistent secure infrastructure that dell provides well and dell's forgot the probably top supply chain not only in the tech business but probably any business and so you can actually take take your dog food and then and allow other billionaire champagne sorry allow other people to you know share share best practices with your with your customers all right guys thanks so much for coming thank you appreciate it okay keep it right there after this short break we'll be back to drill into the storage domain you're watching a blueprint for trusted infrastructure on the cube the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage be right back concern over cyber attacks is now the norm for organizations of all sizes the impact of these attacks can be operationally crippling expensive and have long-term ramifications organizations have accepted the reality of not if but when from boardrooms to i.t departments and are now moving to increase their cyber security preparedness they know that security transformation is foundational to digital transformation and while no one can do it alone dell technologies can help you fortify with modern security modern security is built on three pillars protect your data and systems by modernizing your security approach with intrinsic features and hardware and processes from a provider with a holistic presence across the entire it ecosystem enhance your cyber resiliency by understanding your current level of resiliency for defending your data and preparing for business continuity and availability in the face of attacks overcome security complexity by simplifying and automating your security operations to enable scale insights and extend resources through service partnerships from advanced capabilities that intelligently scale a holistic presence throughout it and decades as a leading global technology provider we'll stop at nothing to help keep you secure okay we're back digging into trusted infrastructure with paris sarcadi he's a senior consultant for product marketing and storage at dell technologies parasaur welcome to the cube good to see you great to be with you dave yeah coming from hyderabad awesome so i really appreciate you uh coming on the program let's start with talking about your point of view on what cyber security resilience means to to dell generally but storage specifically yeah so for something like storage you know we are talking about the data layer name and if you look at cyber security it's all about securing your data applications and infrastructure it has been a very mature field at the network and application layers and there are a lot of great technologies right from you know enabling zero trust advanced authentications uh identity management systems and so on and and in fact you know with the advent of you know the the use of artificial intelligence and machine learning really these detection tools for cyber securities have really evolved in the network and the application spaces so for storage what it means is how can you bring them to the data layer right how can you bring you know the principles of zero trust to the data layer uh how can you leverage artificial intelligence and machine learning to look at you know access patterns and make intelligent decisions about maybe an indicator of a compromise and identify them ahead of time just like you know how it's happening and other ways of applications and when it comes to cyber resilience it's it's basically a strategy which assumes that a threat is imminent and it's a good assumption with the severity of the frequency of the attacks that are happening and the question is how do we fortify the infrastructure in the switch infrastructure to withstand those attacks and have a plan a response plan where we can recover the data and make sure the business continuity is not affected so that's uh really cyber security and cyber resiliency and storage layer and of course there are technologies like you know network isolation immutability and all these principles need to be applied at the storage level as well let me have a follow up on that if i may the intelligence that you talked about that ai and machine learning is that do you do you build that into the infrastructure or is that sort of a separate software module that that points at various you know infrastructure components how does that work both dave right at the data storage level um we have come with various data characteristics depending on the nature of data we developed a lot of signals to see what could be a good indicator of a compromise um and there are also additional applications like cloud iq is the best example which is like an infrastructure wide health monitoring system for dell infrastructure and now we have elevated that to include cyber security as well so these signals are being gathered at cloud iq level and other applications as well so that we can make those decisions about compromise and we can either cascade that intelligence and alert stream upstream for uh security teams um so that they can take actions in platforms like sign systems xtr systems and so on but when it comes to which layer the intelligence is it has to be at every layer where it makes sense where we have the information to make a decision and being closest to the data we have we are basically monitoring you know the various parallels data access who is accessing um are they crossing across any geo fencing uh is there any mass deletion that is happening or a mass encryption that is happening and we are able to uh detect uh those uh patterns and flag them as indicators of compromise and in allowing automated response manual control and so on for it teams yeah thank you for that explanation so at dell technologies world we were there in may it was one of the first you know live shows that that we did in the spring certainly one of the largest and i interviewed shannon champion and a huge takeaway from the storage side was the degree to which you guys emphasized security uh within the operating systems i mean really i mean powermax more than half i think of the features were security related but also the rest of the portfolio so can you talk about the the security aspects of the dell storage portfolio specifically yeah yeah so when it comes to data security and broadly data availability right in the context of cyber resiliency dell storage this you know these elements have been at the core of our um a core strength for the portfolio and the source of differentiation for the storage portfolio you know with almost decades of collective experience of building highly resilient architectures for mission critical data something like power max system which is the most secure storage platform for high-end enterprises and now with the increased focus on cyber security we are extending those core technologies of high availability and adding modern detection systems modern data isolation techniques to offer a comprehensive solution to the customer so that they don't have to piece together multiple things to ensure data security or data resiliency but a well-designed and well-architected solution by design is delivered to them to ensure cyber protection at the data layer got it um you know we were talking earlier to steve kenniston and pete gear about this notion of dell trusted infrastructure how does storage fit into that as a component of that sort of overall you know theme yeah and you know and let me say this if you could adjust because a lot of people might be skeptical that i can actually have security and at the same time not constrict my organizational agility that's old you know not an ore it's an end how do you actually do that if you could address both of those that would be great definitely so for dell trusted infrastructure cyber resiliency is a key component of that and just as i mentioned you know uh air gap isolation it really started with you know power protect cyber recovery you know that was the solution more than three years ago we launched and that was first in the industry which paved way to you know kind of data isolation being a core element of data management and uh for data infrastructure and since then we have implemented these technologies within different storage platforms as well so that customers have the flexibility depending on their data landscape they can approach they can do the right data isolation architecture right either natively from the storage platform or consolidate things into the backup platform and isolate from there and and the other key thing we focus in trusted infrastructure dell infra dell trusted infrastructure is you know the goal of simplifying security for the customers so one good example here is uh you know being able to respond to these cyber threats or indicators of compromise is one thing but an i.t security team may not be looking at the dashboard of the storage systems constantly right storage administration admins may be looking at it so how can we build this intelligence and provide this upstream platforms so that they have a single pane of glass to understand security landscape across applications across networks firewalls as well as storage infrastructure and in compute infrastructure so that's one of the key ways where how we are helping simplify the um kind of the ability to uh respond ability to detect and respond these threads uh in real time for security teams and you mentioned you know about zero trust and how it's a balance of you know not uh kind of restricting users or put heavy burden on you know multi-factor authentication and so on and this really starts with you know what we're doing is provide all the tools you know when it comes to advanced authentication uh supporting external identity management systems multi-factor authentication encryption all these things are intrinsically built into these platforms now the question is the customers are actually one of the key steps is to identify uh what are the most critical parts of their business or what are the applications uh that the most critical business operations depend on and similarly identify uh mission critical data where part of your response plan where it cannot be compromised where you need to have a way to recover once you do this identification then the level of security can be really determined uh by uh by the security teams by the infrastructure teams and you know another you know intelligence that gives a lot of flexibility uh for for even developers to do this is today we have apis um that so you can not only track these alerts at the data infrastructure level but you can use our apis to take concrete actions like blocking a certain user or increasing the level of authentication based on the threat level that has been perceived at the application layer or at the network layer so there is a lot of flexibility that is built into this by design so that depending on the criticality of the data criticality of the application number of users affected these decisions have to be made from time to time and it's as you mentioned it's it's a balance right and sometimes you know if if an organization had a recent attack you know the level of awareness is very high against cyber attacks so for a time you know these these settings may be a bit difficult to deal with but then it's a decision that has to be made by security teams as well got it so you're surfacing what may be hidden kpis that are being buried inside for instance the storage system through apis upstream into a dashboard so that somebody could you know dig into the storage tunnel extract that data and then somehow you know populate that dashboard you're saying you're automating that that that workflow that's a great example and you may have others but is that the correct understanding absolutely and it's a two-way integration let's say a detector an attack has been detected at a completely different layer right in the application layer or at a firewall we can respond to those as well so it's a two-way integration we can cascade things up as well as respond to threats that have been detected elsewhere um uh through the api that's great all right hey api for power skill is the best example for that uh excellent so thank you appreciate that give us the last word put a bow on this and and bring this segment home please absolutely so a dell storage portfolio um using advanced data isolation um with air gap having machine learning based algorithms to detect uh indicators of compromise and having rigor mechanisms with granular snapshots being able to recover data and restore applications to maintain business continuity is what we deliver to customers uh and these are areas where a lot of innovation is happening a lot of product focus as well as you know if you look at the professional services all the way from engineering to professional services the way we build these systems the way we we configure and architect these systems um cyber security and protection is a key focus uh for all these activities and dell.com securities is where you can learn a lot about these initiatives that's great thank you you know at the recent uh reinforce uh event in in boston we heard a lot uh from aws about you know detent and response and devops and machine learning and some really cool stuff we heard a little bit about ransomware but i'm glad you brought up air gaps because we heard virtually nothing in the keynotes about air gaps that's an example of where you know this the cso has to pick up from where the cloud leaves off but that was in front and so number one and number two we didn't hear a ton about how the cloud is making the life of the cso simpler and that's really my takeaway is is in part anyway your job and companies like dell so paris i really appreciate the insights thank you for coming on thecube thank you very much dave it's always great to be in these uh conversations all right keep it right there we'll be right back with rob emsley to talk about data protection strategies and what's in the dell portfolio you're watching thecube data is the currency of the global economy it has value to your organization and cyber criminals in the age of ransomware attacks companies need secure and resilient it infrastructure to safeguard their data from aggressive cyber attacks [Music] as part of the dell technologies infrastructure portfolio powerstor and powermax combine storage innovation with advanced security that adheres to stringent government regulations and corporate compliance requirements security starts with multi-factor authentication enabling only authorized admins to access your system using assigned roles tamper-proof audit logs track system usage and changes so it admins can identify suspicious activity and act with snapshot policies you can quickly automate the protection and recovery process for your data powermax secure snapshots cannot be deleted by any user prior to the retention time expiration dell technologies also make sure your data at rest stays safe with power store and powermax data encryption protects your flash drive media from unauthorized access if it's removed from the data center while adhering to stringent fips 140-2 security requirements cloud iq brings together predictive analytics anomaly detection and machine learning with proactive policy-based security assessments monitoring and alerting the result intelligent insights that help you maintain the security health status of your storage environment and if a security breach does occur power protect cyber recovery isolates critical data identifies suspicious activity and accelerates data recovery using the automated data copy feature unchangeable data is duplicated in a secure digital vault then an operational air gap isolates the vault from the production and backup environments [Music] architected with security in mind dell emc power store and powermax provides storage innovation so your data is always available and always secure wherever and whenever you need it [Music] welcome back to a blueprint for trusted infrastructure we're here with rob emsley who's the director of product marketing for data protection and cyber security rob good to see a new role yeah good to be back dave good to see you yeah it's been a while since we chatted last and you know one of the changes in in my world is that i've expanded my responsibilities beyond data protection marketing to also focus on uh cyber security marketing specifically for our infrastructure solutions group so certainly that's you know something that really has driven us to you know to come and have this conversation with you today so data protection obviously has become an increasingly important component of the cyber security space i i don't think necessarily of you know traditional backup and recovery as security it's to me it's an adjacency i know some companies have said oh yeah now we're a security company they're kind of chasing the valuation for sure bubble um dell's interesting because you you have you know data protection in the form of backup and recovery and data management but you also have security you know direct security capability so you're sort of bringing those two worlds together and it sounds like your responsibility is to to connect those those dots is that right absolutely yeah i mean i think that uh the reality is is that security is a a multi-layer discipline um i think the the days of thinking that it's one uh or another um technology that you can use or process that you can use to make your organization secure uh are long gone i mean certainly um you actually correct if you think about the backup and recovery space i mean people have been doing that for years you know certainly backup and recovery is all about the recovery it's all about getting yourself back up and running when bad things happen and one of the realities unfortunately today is that one of the worst things that can happen is cyber attacks you know ransomware malware are all things that are top of mind for all organizations today and that's why you see a lot of technology and a lot of innovation going into the backup and recovery space because if you have a copy a good copy of your data then that is really the the first place you go to recover from a cyber attack and that's why it's so important the reality is is that unfortunately the cyber criminals keep on getting smarter i don't know how it happens but one of the things that is happening is that the days of them just going after your production data are no longer the only challenge that you have they go after your your backup data as well so over the last half a decade dell technologies with its backup and recovery portfolio has introduced the concept of isolated cyber recovery vaults and that is really the you know we've had many conversations about that over the years um and that's really a big tenant of what we do in the data protection portfolio so this idea of of cyber security resilience that definition is evolving what does it mean to you yeah i think the the analyst team over at gartner they wrote a very insightful paper called you will be hacked embrace the breach and the whole basis of this analysis is so much money has been spent on prevention is that what's out of balance is the amount of budget that companies have spent on cyber resilience and cyber resilience is based upon the premise that you will be hacked you have to embrace that fact and be ready and prepared to bring yourself back into business you know and that's really where cyber resiliency is very very different than cyber security and prevention you know and i think that balance of get your security disciplines well-funded get your defenses as good as you can get them but make sure that if the inevitable happens and you find yourself compromised that you have a great recovery plan and certainly a great recovery plan is really the basis of any good solid data protection backup and recovery uh philosophy so if i had to do a swot analysis we don't have to do the wot but let's focus on the s um what would you say are dell's strengths in this you know cyber security space as it relates to data protection um one is we've been doing it a long time you know we talk a lot about dell's data protection being proven and modern you know certainly the experience that we've had over literally three decades of providing enterprise scale data protection solutions to our customers has really allowed us to have a lot of insight into what works and what doesn't as i mentioned to you one of the unique differentiators of our solution is the cyber recovery vaulting solution that we introduced a little over five years ago five six years parapatek cyber recovery is something which has become a unique capability for customers to adopt uh on top of their investment in dell technologies data protection you know the the unique elements of our solution already threefold and it's we call them the three eyes it's isolation it's immutability and it's intelligence and the the isolation part is really so important because you need to reduce the attack surface of your good known copies of data you know you need to put it in a location that the bad actors can't get to it and that really is the the the the essence of a cyber recovery vault interestingly enough you're starting to see the market throw out that word um you know from many other places but really it comes down to having a real discipline that you don't allow the security of your cyber recovery vault to be compromised insofar as allowing it to be controlled from outside of the vault you know allowing it to be controlled by your backup application our cyber recovery vaulting technology is independent of the backup infrastructure it uses it but it controls its own security and that is so so important it's like having a vault that the only way to open it is from the inside you know and think about that if you think about you know volts in banks or volts in your home normally you have a keypad on the outside think of our cyber recovery vault as having its security controlled from inside of the vault so nobody can get in nothing can get in unless it's already in and if it's already in then it's trusted exactly yeah exactly yeah so isolation is the key and then you mentioned immutability is the second piece yeah so immutability is is also something which has been around for a long time people talk about uh backup immunoability or immutable backup copies so immutability is just the the the additional um technology that allows the data that's inside of the vault to be unchangeable you know but again that immutability you know your mileage varies you know when you look across the uh the different offers that are out there in the market especially in the backup industry you make a very valid point earlier that the backup vendors in the market seems to be security washing their marketing messages i mean everybody is leaning into the ever-present danger of cyber security not a bad thing but the reality is is that you have to have the technology to back it up you know quite literally yeah no pun intended and then actually pun intended now what about the intelligence piece of it uh that's that's ai ml where does that fit for sure so the intelligence piece is delivered by um a solution called cybersense and cybersense for us is what really gives you the confidence that what you have in your cyber recovery vault is a good clean copy of data so it's looking at the backup copies that get driven into the cyber vault and it's looking for anomalies so it's not looking for signatures of malware you know that's what your antivirus software does that's what your endpoint protection software does that's on the prevention side of the equation but what we're looking for is we're looking to ensure that the data that you need when all hell breaks loose is good and that when you get a request to restore and recover your business you go right let's go and do it and you don't have any concern that what you have in the vault has been compromised so cyber sense is really a unique analytic solution in the market based upon the fact that it isn't looking at cursory indicators of of um of of of malware infection or or ransomware introduction it's doing full content analytics you know looking at you know has the data um in any way changed has it suddenly become encrypted has it suddenly become different to how it was in the previous scan so that anomaly detection is very very different it's looking for um you know like different characteristics that really are an indicator that something is going on and of course if it sees it you immediately get flagged but the good news is is that you always have in the vault the previous copy of good known data which now becomes your restore point so we're talking to rob emsley about how data protection fits into what dell calls dti dell trusted infrastructure and and i want to come back rob to this notion of and not or because i think a lot of people are skeptical like how can i have great security and not introduce friction into my organization is that an automation play how does dell tackle that problem i mean i think a lot of it is across our infrastructure is is security has to be built in i mean intrinsic security within our servers within our storage devices uh within our elements of our backup infrastructure i mean security multi-factor authentication you know elements that make the overall infrastructure secure you know we have capabilities that you know allow us to identify whether or not configurations have changed you know we'll probably be talking about that a little bit more to you later in the segment but the the essence is is um security is not a bolt-on it has to be part of the overall infrastructure and that's so true um certainly in the data protection space give us the the bottom line on on how you see dell's key differentiators maybe you could talk about dell of course always talks about its portfolio but but why should customers you know lead in to dell in in this whole cyber resilience space um you know staying on the data protection space as i mentioned the the the work we've been doing um to introduce this cyber resiliency solution for data protection is in our opinion as good as it gets you know the you know you've spoken to a number of our of our best customers whether it be bob bender from founders federal or more recently at delton allergies world you spoke to tony bryson from the town of gilbert and these are customers that we've had for many years that have implemented cyber recovery vaults and at the end of the day they can now sleep at night you know that's really the the peace of mind that they have is that the insurance that a data protection from dell cyber recovery vault a parapatex cyber recovery solution gives them you know really allows them to you know just have the assurance that they don't have to pay a ransom if they have a an insider threat issue and you know all the way down to data deletion is they know that what's in the cyber recovery vault is good and ready for them to recover from great well rob congratulations on the new scope of responsibility i like how you know your organization is expanding as the threat surface is expanding as we said data protection becoming an adjacency to security not security in and of itself a key component of a comprehensive security strategy rob emsley thank you for coming back in the cube good to see you again you too dave thanks all right in a moment i'll be back to wrap up a blueprint for trusted infrastructure you're watching the cube every day it seems there's a new headline about the devastating financial impacts or trust that's lost due to ransomware or other sophisticated cyber attacks but with our help dell technologies customers are taking action by becoming more cyber resilient and deterring attacks so they can greet students daily with a smile they're ensuring that a range of essential government services remain available 24 7 to citizens wherever they're needed from swiftly dispatching public safety personnel or sending an inspector to sign off on a homeowner's dream to protecting restoring and sustaining our precious natural resources for future generations with ever-changing cyber attacks targeting organizations in every industry our cyber resiliency solutions are right on the money providing the security and controls you need we help customers protect and isolate critical data from ransomware and other cyber threats delivering the highest data integrity to keep your doors open and ensuring that hospitals and healthcare providers have access to the data they need so patients get life-saving treatment without fail if a cyber incident does occur our intelligence analytics and responsive team are in a class by themselves helping you reliably recover your data and applications so you can quickly get your organization back up and running with dell technologies behind you you can stay ahead of cybercrime safeguarding your business and your customers vital information learn more about how dell technology's cyber resiliency solutions can provide true peace of mind for you the adversary is highly capable motivated and well equipped and is not standing still your job is to partner with technology vendors and increase the cost of the bad guys getting to your data so that their roi is reduced and they go elsewhere the growing issues around cyber security will continue to drive forward thinking in cyber resilience we heard today that it is actually possible to achieve infrastructure security while at the same time minimizing friction to enable organizations to move quickly in their digital transformations a xero trust framework must include vendor r d and innovation that builds security designs it into infrastructure products and services from the start not as a bolt-on but as a fundamental ingredient of the cloud hybrid cloud private cloud to edge operational model the bottom line is if you can't trust your infrastructure your security posture is weakened remember this program is available on demand in its entirety at thecube.net and the individual interviews are also available and you can go to dell security solutions landing page for for more information go to dell.com security solutions that's dell.com security solutions this is dave vellante thecube thanks for watching a blueprint for trusted infrastructure made possible by dell we'll see you next time

>>Okay. We're back with Ari Basu, who is Cisco's resident philosopher, who also holds a master's in computer science. We're gonna have to unpack that a little bit and Najati chair he who's technical lead at Cisco. Welcome guys. Thanks for coming on the cube. >>Happy to be here. Thanks a >>Lot. All right, let's get into it. We want you to explain how Cisco validated the SBRI technology and the proof points that, that you have, that it actually works as advertised. So first Outre tell first, tell us about Cisco tech. What does Cisco tech do? >>So T is otherwise it's an acronym for technical assistance center is Cisco's support arm, the support organization, and, you know, the risk of sounding like I'm spotting a corporate line. The, the easiest way to summarize what tag does is provide world class support to Cisco customers. What that means is we have about 8,000 engineers worldwide, and any of our Cisco customers can either go on our web portal or call us to open a support request. And we get about 2.2 million of these support requests a year. And what these support requests are, are essentially the customer will describe something that they need done some networking goal that they have, that they wanna accomplish. And then it's tax job to make sure that that goal does get accomplished. Now, it could be something like they're having trouble with an existing network solution, and it's not working as expected, or it could be that they're integrating with a new solution. >>They're, you know, upgrading devices, maybe there's a hardware failure, anything really to do with networking support and, you know, the customer's network goals. If they open up a case for request for help, then tax job is to, is to respond and make sure the customer's, you know, questions and requirements are met about 44% of these support requests are usually trivial and, you know, can be solved within a call or within a day. But the rest of tax cases really involve getting into the network device, looking at logs. It's a very technical role. It's a very technical job. You're look you're, you need to be conversing with network solutions, their designs protocols, et cetera. >>Wow. So 56% non-trivial. And so I would imagine you spend a lot of time digging through through logs. Is that, is that true? Can you quantify that like, you know, every month, how much time you spend digging through logs and is that a pain point? >>Yeah, it's interesting. You asked that because when we started this on this journey to augment our support engineers workflow with zebra solution, one of the things that we did was we went out and asked our engineers what their experience was like doing log analysis. And the anecdotal evidence was that on average, an engineer will spend three out of their eight hours reviewing logs, either online or offline. So what that means is either with the customer live on a WebEx, they're going to be going over logs, network, state information, et cetera, or they're gonna do it offline, where the customer sends them the logs, it's attached to a, you know, a service request and they review it and try to figure out what's going on and provide the customer with information. So it's a very large chunk of our day. You know, I said 8,000 plus engineers, and so three hours a day, that's 24,000 man hours a day spent on long analysis. >>Now the struggle with logs or analyzing logs is there by out of necessity. Logs are very contr contr. They try to pack a lot of information in a very little space. And this is for performance reasons, storage reasons, et cetera, BEC, but the side effect of that is they're very esoteric. So they're hard to read if you're not conversant, if you're not the developer who wrote these logs or you or you, aren't doing code deep dives. And you're looking at where this logs getting printed and things like that, it may not be immediately obvious or even after a low while it may not be obvious what that log line means or how it correlates to whatever problem you're troubleshooting. So it requires tenure. It requires, you know, like I was saying before, it requires a lot of knowledge about the protocol what's expected because when you're doing log analysis, what you're really looking for is a needle in a haystack. You're looking for that one anomalous event, that single thing that tells you this shouldn't have happened. And this was a problem right now doing that kind of anomaly detection requires you to know what is normal. It requires, you know, what the baseline is. And that requires a very in-depth understanding of, you know, the state changes for that network solution or product. So it requires time, tenure and expertise to do well. And it takes a lot of time even when you have that kind of expertise. >>Wow. So thank you, archery. And Najati, that's, that's about, that's almost two days a week for, for a technical resource. That's that's not inexpensive. So what was Cisco looking for to sort of help with this and, and how'd you stumble upon zebra? >>Yeah, so, I mean, we have our internal automation system, which has been running more than a decade now. And what happens is when a customer attaches a log bundle or diagnostic bundle into the service request, we take that from the Sr we analyze it and we represent some kind of information. You know, it can be alert or some tables, some graph to the engineer, so they can, you know, troubleshoot this particular issue. This is an incredible system, but it comes with its own challenges around maintenance to keep it up to date and relevant with Cisco's new products or new version of the product, new defects, new issues, and all kind of things. And when I, what I mean with those challenges are, let's say Cisco comes up with a product today. We need to come together with those engineers. We need to figure out how this bundle works, how it's structured out. >>We need to select individual logs, which are relevant and then start modeling these logs and get some values out of those logs, using pars or some rag access to come to a level that we can consume the logs. And then people start writing rules on top of that abstraction. So people can say in this log, I'm seeing this value together with this other value in another log, maybe I'm hitting this particular defect. So that's how it works. And if you look at it, the abstraction, it can fail the next time. And the next release when the development or the engineer decides to change that log line, which you write that rag X, or we can come up with a new version, which we completely change the services or processes, then whatever you have wrote needs to be re written for that new service. And we see that a lot with products, like for instance, WebEx, where you have a very short release cycle that things can change maybe the next week with a new release. >>So whatever you are writing, especially for that abstraction and for those rules are maybe not relevant with that new release. With that being sake, we have a incredible rule creation process and governance process around it, which starts with maybe a defect. And then it takes it to a level where we have an automation in place. But if you look at it, this really ties to human bandwidth. And our engineers are really busy working on, you know, customer facing, working on issues daily and sometimes creating these rules or these pars are not their biggest priorities, so they can be delayed a bit. So we have this delay between a new issue being identified to a level where we have the automation to detect it next time that some customer faces it. So with all these questions and with all challenges in mind, we start looking into ways of actually how we can automate these automations. >>So these things that we are doing manually, how we can move it a bit further and automate. And we had actually a couple of things in mind that we were looking for and this being one of them being, this has to be product agnostic. Like if Cisco comes up with a product tomorrow, I should be able to take it logs without writing, you know, complex regs, pars, whatever, and deploy it into this system. So it can embrace our logs and make sense of it. And we wanted this platform to be unsupervised. So none of the engineers need to create rules, you know, label logs. This is bad. This is good. Or train the system like which requires a lot of computational power. And the other most important thing for us was we wanted this to be not noisy at all, because what happens with noises when your level of false PE positives really high your engineers start ignoring the good things between that noise. >>So they start the next time, you know, thinking that this thing will not be relevant. So we want something with a lot or less noise. And ultimately we wanted this new platform or new framework to be easily adaptable to our existing workflows. So this is where we started. We start looking into the, you know, first of all, internally, if we can build this thing and also start researching it, and we came up to Zeum actually Larry, one of the co co-founders of Zeum. We came upon his presentation where he clearly explained why this is different, how this works, and it immediately clicked in. And we said, okay, this is exactly what we were looking for. We dived deeper. We checked the block posts where SBRI guys really explained everything very clearly there, they are really open about it. And most importantly, there is a button in their system. >>So what happens usually with AI ML vendors is they have this button where you fill in your details and sales guys call you back. And, you know, we explain the system here. They were like, this is our trial system. We believe in the system, you can just sign up and try it yourself. And that's what we did. We took our, one of our Cisco live DNA center, wireless platforms. We start streaming logs out of it. And then we synthetically, you know, introduce errors, like we broke things. And then we realized that zebra was really catching the errors perfectly. And on top of that, it was really quiet unless you are really breaking something. And the other thing we realized was during that first trial is zebra was actually bringing a lot of context on top of the logs. During those failures, we work with couple of technical leaders and they said, okay, if this failure happens, I I'm expecting this individual log to be there. And we found out with zebra, apart from that individual log, there were a lot of other things which gives a bit more context around the root columns, which was great. And that's where we wanted to take it to the next level. Yeah. >>Okay. So, you know, a couple things to unpack there. I mean, you have the dart board behind you, which is kind of interesting, cuz a lot of times it's like throwing darts at the board to try to figure this stuff out. But to your other point, Cisco actually has some pretty rich tools with AppD and doing observability and you've made acquisitions like thousand eyes. And like you said, I'm, I'm presuming you gotta eat your own dog food or drink your own champagne. And so you've gotta be tools agnostic. And when I first heard about Z zebra, I was like, wait a minute. Really? I was kind of skeptical. I've heard this before. You're telling me all I need is plain text and, and a timestamp. And you got my problem solved. So, and I, I understand that you guys said, okay, let's run a POC. Let's see if we can cut that from, let's say two days a week down to one day, a week. In other words, 50%, let's see if we can automate 50% of the root cause analysis. And, and so you funded a POC. How, how did you test it? You, you put, you know, synthetic, you know, errors and problems in there, but how did you test that? It actually works Najati >>Yeah. So we, we wanted to take it to the next level, which is meaning that we wanted to back test is with existing SARS. And we decided, you know, we, we chose four different products from four different verticals, data center, security, collaboration, and enterprise networking. And we find out SARS where the engineer put some kind of log in the resolution summary. So they closed the case. And in the summary of the Sr, they put, I identified these log lines and they led me to the roots and we, we ingested those log bundles. And we, we tried to see if Zeum can surface that exact same log line in their analysis. So we initially did it with archery ourself and after 50 tests or so we were really happy with the results. I mean, almost most of them, we saw the log line that we were looking for, but that was not enough. >>And we brought it of course, to our management and they said, okay, let's, let's try this with real users because the log being there is one thing, but the engineer reaching to that log is another take. So we wanted to make sure that when we put it in front of our users, our engineers, they can actually come to that log themselves because, you know, we, we know this platform so we can, you know, make searches and find whatever we are looking for, but we wanted to do that. So we extended our pilots to some selected engineers and they tested with their own SRSS. Also do some back testing for some SARS, which are closed in the past or recently. And with, with a sample set of, I guess, close to 200 SARS, we find out like majority of the time, almost 95% of the time the engineer could find the log they were looking for in zebra analysis. >>Yeah. Okay. So you were looking for 50%, you got to 95%. And my understanding is you actually did it with four pretty well known Cisco products, WebEx client DNA center, identity services, engine ISE, and then, then UCS. Yes. Unified pursuit. So you use actual real data and, and that was kind of your proof proof point, but Ari. So that's sounds pretty impressive. And, and you've have you put this into production now and what have you found? >>Well, yes, we're, we've launched this with the four products that you mentioned. We're providing our tech engineers with the ability, whenever a, whenever a support bundle for that product gets attached to the support request. We are processing it, using sense and then providing that sense analysis to the tech engineer for their review. >>So are you seeing the results in production? I mean, are you actually able to, to, to reclaim that time that people are spending? I mean, it was literally almost two days a week down to, you know, a part of a day, is that what you're seeing in production and what are you able to do with that extra time and people getting their weekends back? Are you putting 'em on more strategic tasks? How are you handling that? >>Yeah. So, so what we're seeing is, and I can tell you from my own personal experience using this tool, that troubleshooting any one of the cases, I don't take more than 15 to 20 minutes to go through the zebra report. And I know within that time either what the root causes or I know that zebra doesn't have the information that I need to solve this particular case. So we've definitely seen, well, it's been very hard to measure exactly how much time we've saved per engineer, right? What we, again, anecdotally, what we've heard from our users is that out of those three hours that they were spending per day, we're definitely able to reclaim at least one of those hours and, and what, even more importantly, you know, what the kind of feedback that we've gotten in terms of, I think one statement that really summarizes how Zebra's impacted our workflow was from one of our users. >>And they said, well, you know, until you provide us with this tool, log analysis was a very black and white affair, but now it's become really colorful. And I mean, if you think about it, log analysis is indeed black and white. You're looking at it on a terminal screen where the background is black and the text is white, or you're looking at it as a text where the background is white and the text is black, but what's what they're really trying to say. Is there hardly any visual cues that help you navigate these logs, which are so esoteric, so dense, et cetera. But what XRM does is it provides a lot of color and context to the whole process. So now you're able to quickly get to, you know, using their word cloud, using their interactive histogram, using the summaries of every incident. You're very quickly able to summarize what might be happening and what you need to look into. >>Like, what are the important aspects of this particular log bundle that might be relevant to you? So we've definitely seen that a really great use case that kind of encapsulates all of this was very early on in our experiment. There was, there was this support request that had been escalated to the business unit or the development team. And the tech engineer had really, they, they had an intuition about what was going wrong because of their experience because of, you know, the symptoms that they'd seen. They kind of had an idea, but they weren't able to convince the development team because they weren't able to find any evidence to back up what they thought was happening. And we, it was entirely happenstance that I happened to pick up that case and did an analysis using Seebri. And then I sat down with the attack engineer and we were very quickly within 15 minutes, we were able to get down to the exact sequence of events that highlighted what the customer thought was happening, evidence of what the, so not the customer, what the attack engineer thought was the, was a root cause. It was a rude pause. And then we were able to share that evidence with our business unit and, you know, redirect their resources so that we could change down what the problem was. And that really has been, that that really shows you how that color and context helps in log analysis. >>Interesting. You know, we do a fair amount of work in the cube in the RPA space, the robotic process automation and the narrative in the press when our RPA first started taking off was, oh, it's, you know, machines replacing humans, or we're gonna lose jobs. And, and what actually happened was people were just eliminating mundane tasks and, and the, the employee's actually very happy about it. But my question to you is, was there ever a reticence amongst your team? Like, oh, wow, I'm gonna, I'm gonna lose my job if the machine's gonna replace me, or have you found that people were excited about this and what what's been the reaction amongst the team? >>Well, I think, you know, every automation and AI project has that immediate gut reaction of you're automating away our jobs and so forth. And there is initially there's a little bit of reticence, but I mean, it's like you said, once you start using the tool, you realize that it's not your job, that's getting automated away. It's just that your job's becoming a little easier to do, and it's faster and more efficient. And you're able to get more done in less time. That's really what we're trying to accomplish here at the end of the day, rim will identify these incidents. They'll do the correlation, et cetera. But if you don't understand what you're reading, then that information's useless to you. So you need the human, you need the network expert to actually look at these incidents, but what we are able to skin away or get rid of is all of the fat that's involved in our, you know, in our process, like without having to download the bundle, which, you know, when it's many gigabytes in size, and now we're working from home with the pandemic and everything, you're, you know, pulling massive amounts of logs from the corporate network onto your local device that takes time and then opening it up, loading it in a text editor that takes time. >>All of these things are we're trying to get rid of. And instead we're trying to make it easier and quicker for you to find what you're looking for. So it's like you said, you take away the mundane, you take away the, the difficulties and the slog, but you don't really take away the work, the work still needs to be done. >>Yeah. Great guys. Thanks so much. Appreciate you sharing your story. It's quite, quite fascinating. Really. Thank you for coming on. >>Thanks for having us. >>You're very welcome. Okay. In a moment, I'll be back to wrap up with some final thoughts. This is Dave Valante and you're watching the, >>So today we talked about the need, not only to gain end to end visibility, but why there's a need to automate the identification of root cause problems and doing so with modern technology and machine intelligence can dramatically speed up the process and identify the vast majority of issues right out of the box. If you will. And this technology, it can work with log bundles in batches, or with real time data, as long as there's plain text and a timestamp, it seems Zebra's technology will get you the outcome of automating root cause analysis with very high degrees of accuracy. Zebra is available on Preem or in the cloud. Now this is important for some companies on Preem because there's really some sensitive data inside logs that for compliance and governance reasons, companies have to keep inside their four walls. Now SBRI has a free trial. Of course they better, right? So check it out@zebra.com. You can book a live demo and sign up for a free trial. Thanks for watching this special presentation on the cube, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage on Dave Valante and.

(upbeat music) >> Okay, we're back with Atri Basu who is Cisco's resident philosopher who also holds a master's in computer science. We're going to have to unpack that a little bit. And Necati Cehreli, who's technical lead at Cisco. Welcome, guys. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Happy to be here. >> Thanks a lot. >> All right, let's get into it. We want you to explain how Cisco validated the Zebrium technology and the proof points that you have that it actually works as advertised. So first Atri, first tell us about Cisco TAC. What does Cisco TAC do? >> So TAC is otherwise it's an acronym for Technical Assistance Center, is Cisco's support arm, the support organization. And the risk of sounding like I'm spouting a corporate line. The easiest way to summarize what TAC does is provide world class support to Cisco customers. What that means is we have about 8,000 engineers worldwide and any of our Cisco customers can either go on our web portal or call us to open a support request. And we get about 2.2 million of these support requests a year. And what these support requests are, are essentially the customer will describe something that they need done some networking goal that they have that they want to accomplish. And then it's TACs job to make sure that that goal does get accomplished. Now, it could be something like they're having trouble with an existing network solution and it's not working as expected or it could be that they're integrating with a new solution. They're, you know, upgrading devices maybe there's a hardware failure anything really to do with networking support and, you know the customer's network goals. If they open up a case for testing for help then TACs job is to respond and make sure the customer's, you know questions and requirements are met. About 44% of these support requests are usually trivial and, you know can be solved within a call or within a day. But the rest of TAC cases really involve getting into the network device, looking at logs. It's a very technical role. It's a very technical job. You need to be conversed with network solutions, their designs, protocols, et cetera. >> Wow. So 56% non-trivial. And so I would imagine you spend a lot of time digging through logs. Is that true? Can you quantify that like, you know, every month how much time you spend digging through logs and is that a pain point? >> Yeah, it's interesting you asked that because when we started on this journey to augment our support engineers workflow with Zebrium solution, one of the things that we did was we went out and asked our engineers what their experience was like doing log analysis. And the anecdotal evidence was that on average an engineer will spend three out of their eight hours reviewing logs either online or offline. So what that means is either with the customer live on a WebEx, they're going to be going over logs, network, state information, et cetera or they're going to do it offline where the customer sends them the logs it's attached to a, you know, a service request and they review it and try to figure out what's going on and provide the customer with information. So it's a very large chunk of our day. You know, I said 8,000 plus engineers and so three hours a day that's 24,000 man hours a day spent on log analysis. Now the struggle with logs or analyzing logs is there by out of necessity, logs are very contrite. They try to pack a lot of information in a very little space. And this is for performance reasons, storage reasons, et cetera, but the side effect of that is they're very esoteric. So they're hard to read if you're not conversant if you're not the developer who wrote these logs or you aren't doing code deep dives. And you're looking at where this logs getting printed and things like that, it may not be immediately obvious or even after a little while it may not be obvious what that log line means or how it correlates to whatever problem you're troubleshooting. So it requires tenure. It requires, you know, like I was saying before it requires a lot of knowledge about the protocol what's expected because when you're doing log analysis what you're really looking for is a needle in a haystack. You're looking for that one anomalous event, that single thing that tells you this shouldn't have happened, and this was a problem right. Now doing that kind of anomaly detection requires you to know what is normal. It requires, you know, what the baseline is. And that requires a very in depth understanding of, you know the state changes for that network solution or product. So it requires time to near and expertise to do well. And it takes a lot of time even when you have that kind of expertise. >> Wow. So thank you, Atri. And Necati, that's almost two days a week for a technical resource. That's not inexpensive. So what was Cisco looking for to sort of help with this and how'd you stumble upon Zebrium? >> Yeah, so, we have our internal automation system which has been running more than a decade now. And what happens is when a customer attach log bundle or diagnostic bundle into the service request we take that from the Sr we analyze it and we represent some kind of information. You know, it can be alerts or some tables, some graph, to the engineer, so they can, you know troubleshoot this particular issue. This is an incredible system, but it comes with its own challenges around maintenance to keep it up to date and relevant with Cisco's new products or a new version of a product, new defects, new issues and all kind of things. And when I mean with those challenges are let's say Cisco comes up with a product today. We need to come together with those engineers. We need to figure out how this bundle works, how it's structured out. We need to select individual logs, which are relevant and then start modeling these logs and get some values out of those logs, using PaaS or some rag access to come to a level that we can consume the logs. And then people start writing rules on top of that abstraction. So people can say in this log I'm seeing this value together with this other value in another log, maybe I'm hitting this particular defect. So that's how it works. And if you look at it, the abstraction it can fail the next time. And the next release when the development or engineer decides to change that log line which you write that rag X or we can come up with a new version which we completely change the services or processes then whatever you have wrote needs to be re-written for the new service. And we see that a lot with products, like for instance, WebEx where you have a very short release cycle that things can change maybe the next week with a new release. So whatever you are writing, especially for that abstraction and for those rules are maybe not relevant with that new release. With that being said we have a incredible rule creation process and governance process around it which starts with maybe a defect. And then it takes it to a level where we have an automation in place. But if you look at it, this really ties to human bandwidth. And our engineers are really busy working on you know, customer facing, working on issues daily and sometimes creating news rules or these PaaS are not their biggest priorities so they can be delayed a bit. So we have this delay between a new issue being identified to a level where we have the automation to detect it next time that some customer faces it. So with all these questions and with all challenges in mind we start looking into ways of actually how we can automate these automation. So these things that we are doing manually how we can move it a bit further and automate. And we had actually a couple of things in mind that we were looking for and this being one of them being this has to be product agnostic. Like if Cisco comes up with a product tomorrow I should be able to take it logs without writing, you know, complex regs, PaaS, whatever and deploy it into this system. So it can embrace our logs and make sense of it. And we wanted this platform to be unsupervised. So none of the engineers need to create rules, you know, label logs, this is bad, this is good. Or train the system like which requires a lot of computational power. And the other most important thing for us was we wanted this to be not noisy at all because what happens with noises when your level of false positives really high your engineers start ignoring the good things between that noise. So they start the next time, you know thinking that this thing will not be relevant. So we want something with a lot more less noise. And ultimately we wanted this new platform or new framework to be easily adaptable to our existing workflow. So this is where we started. We start looking into the, you know first of all, internally, if we can build this thing and also start researching it, and we came up to Zebrium actually Larry, one of the co-founders of Zebrium. We came upon his presentation where he clearly explained why this is different, how this works and it immediately clicked in and we said, okay, this is exactly what we were looking for. We dive deeper. We checked the block posts where Zebrium guys really explain everything very clearly there. They're really open about it. And most importantly, there is a button in their system. And so what happens usually with AI ML vendors is they have this button where you fill in your details and a sales guys call you back and you know, explains the system here. They were like, this is our trial system. We believe in the system you can just sign up and try it yourself. And that's what we did. We took one of our Cisco live DNA Center, wireless platforms. We start streaming logs out of it. And then we synthetically, you know, introduce errors like we broke things. And then we realized that Zebrium was really catching the errors perfectly. And on top of that, it was really quiet unless you are really breaking something. And the other thing we realized was during that first trial is Zebrium was actually bringing a lot of context on top of the logs. During those failures, we worked with couple of technical leaders and they said, "Okay if this failure happens I'm expecting this individual log to be there." And we found out with Zebrium apart from that individual log there were a lot of other things which gives a bit more context around the root cause, which was great. And that's where we wanted to take it to the next level. Yeah. >> Okay. So, you know, a couple things to unpack there. I mean, you have the dart board behind you which is kind of interesting, 'cause a lot of times it's like throwing darts at the board to try to figure this stuff out. But to your other point, Cisco actually has some pretty rich tools with AppD and doing observability and you've made acquisitions like thousand eyes. And like you said, I'm presuming you got to eat your own dog food or drink your own champagne. And so you've got to be tools agnostic. And when I first heard about Zebrium, I was like wait a minute. Really? I was kind of skeptical. I've heard this before. You're telling me all I need is plain text and a timestamp. And you got my problem solved. So, and I understand that you guys said, okay let's run a POC. Let's see if we can cut that from, let's say two days a week down to one day, a week. In other words, 50%, let's see if we can automate 50% of the root cause analysis. And so you funded a POC. How did you test it? You put, you know, synthetic, you know errors and problems in there, but how did you test that, it actually works Necati? >> Yeah. So we wanted to take it to the next level which is meaning that we wanted to back test is with existing SaaS. And we decided, you know, we chose four different products from four different verticals, data center security, collaboration, and enterprise networking. And we find out SaaS where the engineer put some kind of log in the resolution summary. So they closed the case. And in the summary of the SR, they put "I identified these log lines and they led me to the root cause" and we ingested those log bundles. And we tried to see if Zebrium can surface that exact same log line in their analysis. So we initially did it with archery ourself and after 50 tests or so we were really happy with the results. I mean, almost most of them we saw the log line that we were looking for but that was not enough. And we brought it of course to our management and they said, "Okay, let's try this with real users" because the log being there is one thing but the engineer reaching to that log is another take. So we wanted to make sure that when we put it in front of our users, our engineers, they can actually come to that log themselves because, you know, we know this platform so we can, you know make searches and find whatever we are looking for but we wanted to do that. So we extended our pilots to some selected engineers and they tested with their own SaaS. Also due some back testing for some SaaS which are closed in the past or recently. And with a sample set of, I guess, close to 200 SaaS we find out like majority of the time, almost 95% of the time the engineer could find the log they were looking for in Zebrium's analysis. >> Yeah. Okay. So you were looking for 50%, you got the 95%. And my understanding is you actually did it with four pretty well known Cisco products, WebEx client, DNA Center Identity services, engine ISE, and then UCS. Unified pursuit. So you use actual real data and that was kind of your proof point, but Atri, so that sounds pretty impressive. And have you put this into production now and what have you found? >> Well, yes, we've launched this with the four products that you mentioned. We're providing our TAC engineers with the ability, whenever a support bundle for that product gets attached to the support request. We are processing it, using sense and then providing that sense analysis to the TAC engineer for their review. >> So are you seeing the results in production? I mean, are you actually able to reclaim that time that people are spending? I mean, it was literally almost two days a week down to you know, a part of a day, is that what you're seeing in production and what are you able to do with that extra time and people getting their weekends back? Are you putting 'em on more strategic tasks? How are you handling that? >> Yeah. So what we're seeing is, and I can tell you from my own personal experience using this tool that troubleshooting any one of the cases, I don't take more than 15 to 20 minutes to go through the Zebrium report. And I know within that time either what the root causes or I know that Zebrium doesn't have the information that I need to solve this particular case. So we've definitely seen, well it's been very hard to measure exactly how much time we've saved per engineer, right? Again, anecdotally, what we've heard from our users is that out of those three hours that they were spending per day, we're definitely able to reclaim at least one of those hours and what even more importantly, you know, what the kind of feedback that we've gotten in terms of I think one statement that really summarizes how Zebrium's impacted our workflow was from one of our users. And they said, "Well, you know, until you provide us with this tool, log analysis was a very black and white affair, but now it's become really colorful." And I mean, if you think about it log analysis is indeed black and white. You're looking at it on a terminal screen where the background is black and the text is white, or you're looking at it as a text where the background is white and the text is black, but what they're really trying to say is there are hardly any visual cues that help you navigate these logs which are so esoteric, so dense, et cetera. But what Zebrium does is it provides a lot of color and context to the whole process. So now you're able to quickly get to, you know using their Word Cloud, using their interactive histogram, using the summaries of every incident. You're very quickly able to summarize what might be happening and what you need to look into. Like, what are the important aspects of this particular log bundle that might be relevant to you? So we've definitely seen that. A really great use case that kind of encapsulates all of this was very early on in our experiment. There was this support request that had been escalated to the business unit or the development team. And the TAC engineer had really, they had an intuition about what was going wrong because of their experience because of, you know the symptoms that they'd seen. They kind of had an idea but they weren't able to convince the development team because they weren't able to find any evidence to back up what they thought was happening. And it was entirely happenstance that I happened to pick up that case and did an analysis using Zebrium. And then I sat down with a TAC engineer and we were very quickly within 15 minutes we were able to get down to the exact sequence of events that highlighted what the customer thought was happening, evidence of what the sorry not the customer what the TAC engineer thought was a root cause. And then we were able to share that evidence with our business unit and, you know redirect their resources so that we could chase down what the problem was. And that that really shows you how that color and context helps in log analysis. >> Interesting. You know, we do a fair amount of work in theCUBE in the RPA space, the robotic process automation and the narrative in the press when our RPA first started taking off was, oh, it's, you know machines replacing humans, or we're going to lose jobs. And what actually happened was people were just eliminating mundane tasks and the employees actually very happy about it. But what my question to you is was there ever a reticence amongst your team? Like, oh, wow, I'm going to lose my job if the machine's going to replace me or have you found that people were excited about this and what's been the reaction amongst the team? >> Well, I think, you know, every automation and AI project has that immediate gut reaction of you're automating away our jobs and so forth. And there is initially there's a little bit of reticence but I mean, it's like you said once you start using the tool, you realize that it's not your job, that's getting automated away. It's just that your job's becoming a little easier to do and it's faster and more efficient. And you're able to get more done in less time. That's really what we're trying to accomplish here. At the end of the day, Zebrium will identify these incidents. They'll do the correlation, et cetera. But if you don't understand what you're reading then that information's useless to you. So you need the human you need the network expert to actually look at these incidents, but what we are able to skin away or get rid of is all of is all the fat that's involved in our process like without having to download the bundle, which, you know when it's many gigabytes in size and now we're working from home with the pandemic and everything, you're, you know pulling massive amounts of logs from the corporate network onto your local device that takes time and then opening it up, loading it in a text editor that takes time. All of these things are we're trying to get rid of. And instead we're trying to make it easier and quicker for you to find what you're looking for. So it's like you said, you take away the mundane you take away the difficulties and the slog but you don't really take away the work the work still needs to be done. >> Yeah, great. Guys, thanks so much appreciate you sharing your story. It's quite, quite fascinating. Really. Thank you for coming on. >> Thanks for having us. >> You're very welcome. >> Excellent. >> Okay. In a moment, I'll be back to wrap up with some final thoughts. This is Dave Vellante and you're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>>mhm. Okay, we're back. I'm John. Fully with the Cuban. We're going to go deeper into a deep dive into unified cloud networking solution from Pluribus and NVIDIA. And we'll examine some of the use cases with Alexandra Barberry, VP of product Management and Pluribus Networks. And Pete Lambasts, the director of technical market and video. Remotely guys, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >>I think >>so. Deep dive. Let's get into the what and how Alexandra, we heard earlier about the pluribus and video partnership in the solution you're working together on. What is it? >>Yeah. First, let's talk about the what? What are we really integrating with the NVIDIA Bluefield deep You Technology pluribus says, uh, has been shipping, uh, in volume in multiple mission critical networks. So this adviser, one network operating systems it runs today on merchant silicon switches and effectively, it's a standard based open network computing system for data centre. Um, and the novelty about this operating system is that it integrates a distributed the control plane for Atwater made effective in STN overlay. This automation is completely open and interoperable, and extensible to other type of clouds is nothing closed and this is actually what we're now porting to the NVIDIA GPU. >>Awesome. So how does it integrate into video hardware? And specifically, how is plural is integrating its software within video hardware? >>Yeah, I think we leverage some of the interesting properties of the blue field the GPU hardware, which allows actually to integrate, um, our soft our network operating system in a manner which is completely isolated and independent from the guest operating system. So the first byproduct of this approach is that whatever we do at the network level on the GPU card is completely agnostic to the hyper visor layer or OS layer running on on the host even more. Um, uh, we can also independently manage this network. Note this switch on a nick effectively, uh, managed completely independently from the host. You don't have to go through the network operating system running on X 86 to control this network node. So you truly have the experience effectively of a top of rack for virtual machine or a top of rack for kubernetes spots. Where instead of, uh, um, if you allow me with analogy instead of connecting a server nique directly to a switchboard now you're connecting a VM virtual interface to a virtual interface on the switch on a nick. And also as part of this integration, we, uh, put a lot of effort, a lot of emphasis in accelerating the entire day to play in for networking and security. So we are taking advantage of the DACA, uh, video DACA api to programme the accelerators and this your accomplished two things with that number one, you, uh, have much greater performance, much better performance than running the same network services on an X 86 CPU. And second, this gives you the ability to free up. I would say around 2025% of the server capacity to be devoted either to additional war close to run your cloud applications. Or perhaps you can actually shrink the power footprint and compute footprint of your data centre by 20% if you want to run. The same number of computer work was so great efficiencies in the overall approach. >>And this is completely independent of the server CPU, right? >>Absolutely. There is zero quote from pluribus running on the X 86 this is what why we think this enables a very clean demarcation between computer and network. >>So, Pete, I gotta get I gotta get you in here. We heard that the GPUS enable cleaner separation of devops and net ops. Can you explain why that's important? Because everybody's talking. Def SEC ops, right now you've got Net ops. Net net SEC ops, this separation. Why is this clean separation important? >>Yeah, I think it's, uh, you know, it's a pragmatic solution, in my opinion, Um, you know, we wish the world was all kind of rainbows and unicorns, but it's a little a little messier than that. And I think a lot of the devops stuff in that, uh, mentality and philosophy. There's a natural fit there, right? You have applications running on servers. So you're talking about developers with those applications integrating with the operators of those servers? Well, the network has always been this other thing, and the network operators have always had a very different approach to things than compute operators. And, you know, I think that we we in the networking industry have gotten closer together. But there's still a gap. There's still some distance, and I think in that distance isn't going to be closed and So again it comes down to pragmatism. And I think, you know, one of my favourite phrases is look, good fences make good neighbours. And that's what this is. Yeah, >>it's a great point because devops has become kind of the calling card for cloud. Right? But devops is a simply infrastructure as code infrastructure is networking, right? So if infrastructure as code, you know, you're talking about, you know, that part of the stack under the covers under the hood, if you will. This is super important distinction. And this is where the innovation is. Can you elaborate on how you see that? Because this is really where the action is right now. >>Yeah, exactly. And I think that's where one from from the policy, the security, the zero trust aspect of this right. If you get it wrong on that network side, all of a sudden, you you can totally open up that those capabilities and so security is part of that. But the other part is thinking about this at scale, right. So we're taking one top of rack switch and adding, you know, up to 48 servers per rack, and so that ability to automate orchestrate and manage its scale becomes absolutely critical. >>Alexandra, this is really the why we're talking about here. And this is scale and again getting it right. If you don't get it right, you're gonna be really kind of up. You know what you know. So this is a huge deal. Networking matters. Security matters. Automation matters. DEVOPS. Net ops all coming together. Clean separation. Help us understand how this joint solution within video gets into the pluribus unified cloud networking vision. Because this is what people are talking about and working on right now. >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think here with this solution, we're talking to major problems in cloud networking. One is the operation of cloud networking, and the second is distributing security services in the cloud infrastructure. First, let me talk about first. What are we really unifying? If you really find something, something must be at least fragmented or disjointed. And what is this? Joint is actually the network in the cloud. If you look holistically how networking is deployed in the cloud, you have your physical fabric infrastructure, right? Your switches and routers. You build your I P clause fabric leaf and spine to apologies. this is actually well understood the problem. I would say, um, there are multiple vendors with a similar technologies. Very well, standardised. Very well understood. Um, and almost a commodity, I would say building an I P fabric these days. But this is not the place where you deploy most of your services in the cloud, particularly from a security standpoint. Those services are actually now moved into the compute layer where you actually were called. Builders have to instrument a separate network virtualisation layer, where they deploy segmentation and security closer to the workloads. And this is where the complication arise. This high value part of the cloud network is where you have a plethora of options, that they don't talk to each other, and they are very dependent on the kind of hyper visor or compute solution you choose. Um, for example, the networking API between an SX I environment or and hyper V or a Zen are completely disjointed. You have multiple orchestration layers and when and then when you throw in Also kubernetes in this In this in this type of architecture, uh, you're introducing yet another level of networking, and when you burn it, it runs on top of the M s, which is a prevalent approach. You actually just stuck in multiple networks on the compute layer that they eventually run on the physical fabric infrastructure. Those are all ships in the night effectively, right? They operate as completely disjointed. And we're trying to attack this problem first with the notion of a unified fabric, which is independent from any work clothes. Uh, whether it's this fabric spans on a switch which can become connected to a bare metal workload or can spend all the way inside the deep You where you have your multi hypervisors computer environment. It's one a P I one common network control plane and one common set of segmentation services for the network. That's probably number one. >>You know, it's interesting you I hear you talking. I hear one network different operating models reminds me the old server list days. You know there's still servers, but they called server list. Is there going to be a term network list? Because at the end of the, it should be one network, not multiple operating models. This this is like a problem that you guys are working on. Is that right? I mean, I'm not I'm just joking. Server, Listen, network list. But the idea is it should be one thing. >>Yeah, it's effectively. What we're trying to do is we're trying to recompose this fragmentation in terms of network operations across physical networking and server networking. Server networking is where the majority of the problems are because of the as much as you have standardised the ways of building, uh, physical networks and cloud fabrics with high people articles on the Internet. And you don't have that kind of, uh, sort of, uh, operational efficiency at the server layer. And this is what we're trying to attack first with this technology. The second aspect we're trying to attack is how we distribute the security services throughout the infrastructure more efficiently. Whether it's micro segmentation is a state, full firewall services or even encryption, those are all capabilities enabled by the blue field deep you technology and, uh, we can actually integrate those capabilities directly into the network fabric. Limiting dramatically, at least for is to have traffic, the sprawl of security appliances with a virtual or physical that is typically the way people today segment and secured the traffic in the >>cloud. All kidding aside about network. Listen, Civil is kind of fun. Fun play on words There the network is one thing is basically distributed computing, right? So I love to get your thoughts about this Distributed security with zero trust as the driver for this architecture you guys are doing. Can you share in more detail the depth of why DPU based approach is better than alternatives? >>Yeah, I think. What's what's beautiful and kind of what the deep you brings that's new to this model is completely isolated. Compute environment inside. So you know, it's the yo dog. I heard you like a server, So I put a server inside your server. Uh, and so we provide, you know, arm CPUs, memory and network accelerators inside, and that is completely isolated from the host. So the server, the the actual X 86 host just thinks it has a regular nick in there. But you actually have this full control plane thing. It's just like taking your top of rack, switch and shovel. Get inside of your compute node. And so you have not only the separation, um, within the data plane, but you have this complete control plane separation. So you have this element that the network team can now control and manage. But we're taking all of the functions we used to do at the top of rack Switch, and we distribute them now. And, you know, as time has gone on, we've we've struggled to put more and more and more into that network edge. And the reality is the network edge is the compute layer, not the top of rack switch layer. And so that provides this phenomenal enforcement point for security and policy. And I think outside of today's solutions around virtual firewalls, um, the other option is centralised appliances. And even if you can get one that can scale large enough, the question is, can you afford it? And so what we end up doing is we kind of hope that if aliens good enough or we hope that if you excellent tunnel is good enough, and we can actually apply more advanced techniques there because we can't physically, financially afford that appliance to see all of the traffic, and now that we have a distributed model with this accelerator, we could do it. >>So what's the what's in it for the customer real quick. I think this is an interesting point. You mentioned policy. Everyone in networking those policies just a great thing. And it has. You hear it being talked about up the stack as well. When you start getting to orchestrate microservices and what not all that good stuff going on their containers and whatnot and modern applications. What's the benefit to the customers with this approach? Because what I heard was more scale, more edge deployment, flexibility relative to security policies and application. Enablement. I mean, is that what what's the customer get out of this architecture? What's the enablement? >>It comes down to taking again the capabilities that were that top of rack switch and distracting them down. So that makes simplicity smaller. Blast Radius is for failure, smaller failure domains, maintenance on the networks and the systems become easier. Your ability to integrate across workloads becomes infinitely easier. Um, and again, you know, we always want to kind of separate each one of those layers. So, just as in, say, a Vieques land network, my leaf and spine don't have to be tightly coupled together. I can now do this at a different layer and so you can run a deep You with any networking in the core there. And so you get this extreme flexibility, you can start small. You can scale large. Um, you know, to me that the possibilities are endless. >>It's a great security control Playing really flexibility is key, and and also being situationally aware of any kind of threats or new vectors or whatever is happening in the network. Alexandra, this is huge Upside, right? You've already identified some, uh, successes with some customers on your early field trials. What are they doing? And why are they attracted? The solution? >>Yeah, I think the response from customer has been the most encouraging and exciting for for us to, uh, to sort of continuing work and develop this product. And we have actually learned a lot in the process. Um, we talked to three or two or three cloud providers. We talked to s P um, sort of telco type of networks, uh, as well as enter large enterprise customers. Um, in one particular case, um uh, one, I think. Let me let me call out a couple of examples here just to give you a flavour. There is a service provider, a cloud provider in Asia who is actually managing a cloud where they are offering services based on multiple hypervisors their native services based on Zen. But they also, um, ramp into the cloud workloads based on SX I and N K P M. Depending on what the customer picks from the piece from the menu. And they have the problem of now orchestrating through the orchestrate or integrating with Zen Centre with this fear with open stock to coordinate this multiple environments and in the process to provide security, they actually deploy virtual appliances everywhere, which has a lot of cost complication, and it's up into the service of you the promise that they saw in this technology they call it. Actually, game changing is actually to remove all this complexity, even a single network, and distribute the micro segmentation service directly into the fabric. And overall, they're hoping to get out of it. Tremendous OPEC's benefit and overall operational simplification for the cloud infrastructure. That's one important use case, um, another large enterprise customer, a global enterprise customer is running both Essex I and I purvey in their environment, and they don't have a solution to do micro segmentation consistently across Hypervisors. So again, micro segmentation is a huge driver. Security looks like it's a recurring theme talking to most of these customers and in the telco space. Um, uh, we're working with a few telco customers on the CFT programme, uh, where the main goal is actually to Arman Eyes Network operation. They typically handle all the V NFC with their own homegrown DPD K stock. This is overly complex. It is, frankly, also slow and inefficient. And then they have a physical network to manage the idea of having again one network to coordinate the provisioning of cloud services between the take of the NFC. Uh, the rest of the infrastructure is extremely powerful on top of the offloading capability. After by the blue fill the pews. Those are just some examples. >>There's a great use case, a lot more potential. I see that with the unified cloud networking. Great stuff shout out to you guys that NVIDIA, you've been following your success for a long time and continuing to innovate his cloud scales and pluribus here with unified networking. Kind of bringing the next level great stuff. Great to have you guys on and again, software keeps, uh, driving the innovation again. Networking is just part of it, and it's the key solution. So I got to ask both of you to wrap this up. How can cloud operators who are interested in in this new architecture and solution learn more? Because this is an architectural ship. People are working on this problem. They're trying to think about multiple clouds are trying to think about unification around the network and giving more security more flexibility to their teams. How can people learn more? >>And so, uh, Alexandra and I have a talk at the upcoming NVIDIA GTC conference, so it's the week of March 21st through 24th. Um, you can go and register for free and video dot com slash gtc. Um, you can also watch recorded sessions if you end up watching this on YouTube a little bit after the fact, Um, and we're going to dive a little bit more into the specifics and the details and what we're providing a solution >>as Alexandra. How can people learn more? >>Yeah, so that people can go to the pluribus website www pluribus networks dot com slash e. F t and they can fill up the form and, uh, they will contact Pluribus to either no more or to know more and actually to sign up for the actual early field trial programme. Which starts at the end of it. >>Okay, well, we'll leave it there. Thank you both for joining. Appreciate it up. Next, you're going to hear an independent analyst perspective and review some of the research from the Enterprise Strategy Group E s G. I'm John Ferry with the Cube. Thanks for watching. Mhm. Mhm.

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante full stack observability is the new buzz phrase as businesses go digital customer experience becomes ever more important why because fickle consumers can switch brands in the blink of an eye or the click of a mouse every vendor wants a piece of the action in this market including companies that have provided traditional monitoring log analytics application performance management etc and they're joined by a slew of new entrants claiming end invisibility across the so-called modern tech stack recent survey research from etr however confirms our thesis that no one company has it all new entrants they've got a vision and and they're not encumbered with legacy technical debt however their offerings are immature on the other hand established players with deep feature sets in one segment are pivoting through m a and some organic development to fill gaps meanwhile the cloud players are well positioned and participating through a combination of their own native tooling combined with strong ecosystems in their respective marketplaces to address this opportunity hello everyone and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we dive into a recent etr drill down study on full stack observability and to do so we once again welcome in our colleague eric bradley chief engagement strategist and director of research at etr eric good to see you my friend thanks for coming on uh always good to be here dave thank you so much for having us we appreciate it all right before we get into the survey eric i i want to talk a little bit about full stack observability define what it is and so let me start and then you can chime in so when people talk about full stack observability they're referring to the need to understand the behavior of all the technology components that support an application i.e the stack right throughout the entire system meaning the full piece of the equation right the entire system so the compute we're talking about the storage the network and of course that's all software defined today the containers that are running the software the database other middleware components the pipeline of data and then of course the client-side code everything the html the css everything down to the mobile device and the idea is to give people who can fix problems full visibility into the system with a dashboard of metrics that can be visualized at a high level and then drilled into to see logs or traces or events all the metrics that could help remediate an issue so a simple way to think about this eric is i like to think of it as the ability to see everything in the tech stack that could impact the customer experience right how do you see it if only we're that simple right it's it's a huge thing that we're trying to encompass there with full stack observability and uh even though the vendors might tell you on the first sales call that they can do it it's really not that simple based on everything you just said um in this particular survey we tried our best to look at it and we'll go into it later but you know we had to survey on the application side infrastructure side database side blog management security network it's a very difficult thing to encompass um the holy grail would be able to do it with one vendor and do it with one dashboard i don't think we're there anytime soon all right so let's get into this drill down survey results and talk about what you've learned first what is explain what a drill down study is how often does etr conduct these types of things you know who responds what can you tell us yeah sure so the drill downs are actually basically think of it as a custom type of survey work and that could be customized from two different ways either our clients will come to us with a particular topic and we will hold their hands and make sure that they get the the responses that they need uh and more often than not it's actually us as a research department uh wanting to dig into trends that our larger data encompasses and then we'll say hey we really need to look into that and we've done it with everything from rpa to identity access to you know hearing observability and also vendor specific and and macro trends as you know david this particular one the genesis was really a large amount of interest not only from our community the end users but clients i i can't tell you how much interest there is in observability right now we're constantly getting questions and demands for more research and deeper research in this space yeah so our audience will be familiar with the concept of net score that's the periodic survey every quarter like clockwork etr does that then in addition as eric was saying hot topics like in this case full stack observability so we're talking about respondents in the etr community in this case who have a deep understanding of observability and related topics and and they had varying degrees of knowledge about each vendor's offering so you asked the respondents to concentrate on the ones that they knew well correct yes that is correct so this was a smaller survey that we did the end was a little under 188 i believe um and essentially what we did was we took people that responded in the bigger study on these observability vendors and then sent this drill down out so they were specifically people that have purview over their spend with observability now some of it might be more database infrastructure application or security but everyone here is already qualified as an expert to answer these questions that's correct dave yeah so the first data point is the one we're showing you right here the respondents were asked who uses observability tools and eric i've highlighted app ops in in the site reliability engineers because given the emphasis on customer centricity that we hear all the time from the vendor community you would think these roles would be more highly represented but it's the folks in the boiler room that are using these tools highly technical and specialized roles what are your thoughts on this data you know i was a little surprised as well i i kind of thought the sres would be a little bit higher on this but it really just comes down to you know it's the infrastructure um devops and secops that seem to be using it the most i thought maybe the application operations teams would be a little bit more involved as well so i agree with you i was a little bit surprised on this but you know they're the experts so we have to take the data at their word for it but i think what's really happening here is you're recognizing that the work is being done across the entire enterprise as you mentioned before about full stack this isn't just one aspect it's touching every aspect of the enterprise and that's including the internal i.t teams well and i think too eric that this what i took away from this drill down and we'll get more into it is that the vendor marketing is not aligned with what's actually happening in the field and so there's these early days we'll talk about that some more okay next question i thought this was very interesting etr asked on the scale of one to three three being most preferred which pricing model host-based user-based or amount of data ingested based pricing that the responders preferred and eric so what are your what are your thoughts on this because just doing a quick scan scan pricing is all over the map yeah it really is all over the map from a vendor perspective right and also from an end user perspective and all the interviews and panels that i host pricing's a real concern but it is always but in this particular field it's a real concern and i actually just did a panel yesterday of four of these 88 survey takers to get a little bit deeper so i'm going to kind of remark on what they taught me a little bit yesterday one of them said ingestion pricing might be preferable but because it's so unpredictable that's why we're seeing the results skew away from it another one went so far that said uh ingestion based pricing is a nightmare that keeps him up at night because he's just so afraid he's gonna wake up the next day and see what the bill is so um really what they're looking for here and the reason the pricing is skewing that way in this survey is because they need predictability it's about their budget and it's about their planning even though they would prefer an ingestion-based model the fact that they have to plan for their budgets and they have to concern themselves with spending it's moving more to host based yeah so i mean it is complicated and because so for example i just took a quick snapshot of some of the pricing models like dynatrace appd datadog aws and others they tout their host-based pricing new relic they have a splash page up around its user-based pricing and the tiers datadog talks about its ingestion-based pricing for security monitoring aws prices by ingestion for cloud watch logs splunk prices on index data and calculates a per gigabyte per day metric so metrics dashboards alarms alerts events it's they could all be priced differently yeah that's true a few that got called out on us and i'm sure we're going to get into them later so i don't want to you know kill all of our fodder right now but when we were talking about this slide one person particularly decided to call out new relic and specif specifically for their flexibility around pricing he said that they have the ability to rapidly scale up but also contract as needed and he actually even though he's a user of splunk he's a user of dyna trees user of elastic um he also just really wanted to call out the flexibility of new relic in this area so to your point there's a lot of different ways to price this it's a complex problem but i think the key takeaway for vendors is flexibility is the key you really need to give people the ability to be flexible in what they want all right let's drill into the functionality and explore the usage and adoption of the different features by the respondents so this next chart shows module adoption for application performance monitoring apm database and digital experience down to the user and eric i underlined apm which is the blue bar because it seems it stands out especially for aws and you can see dynast dyna trace but also azure new relic and splunk and then digital experience which is the gray bar because despite all the chatter in the market and the marketing around digital transformation and customer experience other than a slightly higher response percentage for aws not a lot of adoption on that front so the vendor marketing again doesn't match the user behavior does it eric no it doesn't there's a couple of things to point out here but let's stick with that digital experience i i was surprised that it was so low on this slide and overall in our survey i did expect it to be more and not just from the vendor marketing perspective but you and i both know at the end of the day the whole point of this is to actually get into that 360 view of what your customer's doing so i i was a little bit surprised to see it that low when we spoke to the panel yesterday a couple of people said no listen it's not that we aren't doing that it's just that it's not the vendors that you put on this survey and they called out two particular names one is called catchpoint and the other one is thousand dies and i think you're aware a thousand dice i'm going to transition that off to you there yeah so a thousand eyes is now part of cisco and we're gonna talk about that a little bit later but but essentially like as i was saying up front they've got gaps in their in their product line so they've got to do m a and then package that up so you know we'll we'll get into that a little bit down the road but i want to bring up the next graphic because that looks at incident management infrastructure monitoring and log management and and what i did here is i called out infrastructure monitoring which is the gray bar and log management that light blue because aws and azure they stand out in these categories and splunk of course eric for for log management what what do you take away from this data yeah the previous slide and this slide you really have to call out aws cloudwatch and microsoft is your monitor um they are very pervasive in this survey and we could probably do an entire show on just that on the cloud versus independent but a couple of things i do want to point out even though these numbers are so high for these cloud tools the the panelists and the people i spoke to in more detail all said listen i'm going to look at my cloud tools first i'm on their infrastructure they're handing it to me i'm going to look at it and i'll use it for what it's good for however we're in a multi-cloud world and they're not good at things that aren't in their ecosystem so these are not even though these numbers are high i do not believe that you know aws or azure is going to go and take over all the independents in a multi-cloud world they want an independent vendor whether it's a data dog new relic we could talk about all of those later but um you know really i was surprised that the aws particularly was so high and so pervasive in here across the way a splunk what can you say i mean they are the most pervasive vendor you know they they're everywhere uh we had people in the panel call them a swiss army knife and you know that's a good and a bad that they have a lot of breadth of coverage which is great but because there's a breadth of coverage not all of it is great log management without a doubt is what they are great at they're specialized at it but the panelists were saying listen if you go away from their core and you try to use some of the other things they claim that they can do it requires a lot of heavy lifting and then we can get into a little bit later about their cloud cloud sas integration we had some issues with that in the survey as well and great points about the multi-cloud you're probably not going to trust that to your your cloud your public cloud vendor and so a lot of white space available for the traditional on-prem guys okay next the etr survey drilled into network monitoring and security monitoring and then other security functions and eric there are a couple of things that stood out to me in this chart i highlighted security monitoring which is the blue bar because you can again see the adoption from aws and azure and of course splunk and also we called out solar winds because of the large adoption in network monitoring so let me ask you what are you seeing in the data since the solarwinds breach and is there anything else in this chart that you want to call out i could go on for a while about solarwinds but you know the data since i guess it broke around 12 months ago even though the breach was even prior to that uh the headlines were big i think you remember you and i last year did a quick drill down survey just on solarwinds uh and the impact that we thought we would have it uh there's a very real impact happening uh with that said they're not easy to move away from um we asked about is there any one vendor that could take this entire space and the answer was solar winds was best positioned to do that but it's too late now and then i drilled down a little bit and i asked the panel well what can they do to reinvent themselves what can they do to change the reputational damage from this breach and the panelists all said nothing the reputational damage is done the best way for them to reinvent themselves would be to do an m a consolidate with somebody else change their name they truly believe that right now the only reason that people are still using solarwinds is it's not that easy to lift and shift away from but there will be no new net workloads going to these people at least according to the the ones who took our survey um that's on solar winds and we could get you know in more if you want but i think that's kind of you know giving the the the crux of the matter on splunk again what can you say on the security side on the sim side people don't want to use multiple vendors on the other side we were talking about with full stack some might be better at apm some might be better at infrastructure monitoring when you're talking about security you truly do want one vendor to rule them all and splunk does seem to be the one that's most well entrenched on the security side and as long as the policy is consistent across security you really can't say much about them so what they do well their core their the data shows that you know people still trust them great thank you for that okay now the last set of data we want to show we kind of consolidated some things you want the the detail and the drill down you had several drill down questions and what we try to do is consolidate them into a single chart which we had to stare at for a while so for each of the 11 companies etr asked respondents if the features across the top that you see here were strengths weaknesses or neutral and what we've done is we tried to consolidate the chart showing the strengths in the green which we just subjectively said okay that means more than 40 percent of the respondents identified the feature as a strength the weaknesses in yellow meant that more than 20 percent of the respondents cited the feature as a weakness and the neutrals in the gray where neither of those conditions were met but the gray was you know the neutral was high and what we did is we added four stars for standout features where 60 or more of the respondents cited the feature as a strength and we threw in two stars if they were close to 60 you know high 50s even mid 50s but but not single digit weakness for that feature that was got two stars so it was able to sort of visualize a lot of data so eric just a quick scan of this chart chart shows that the two big cloud players aws in particular but also azure they have a relatively strong showing and i say relatively because as you know eric there wasn't a single category of feature for any vendor where more than 70 percent of the respondents cited the strength for that single feature not one and there was a lot of gray and you can see pricing is a sore point for many customers including those evaluating solarwinds new relic elastic datadog dynatrace appd and splunk only aws and grafana were hit not hit hard on pricing and i guess the other thing that stands out to me here is that new relic eric showed some relative strength so the last thing i'll mention before you dive in look at what cisco is doing we talked about this before a little bit the drill down focused on appd but as i mentioned earlier companies that have mature stacks are filling the gaps so if you look at what cisco's doing this space they've put an interface layer over appd inner site and thousand eyes even though they're separate products they're historically priced separately i think they're still trying to figure out the pricing but they are definitely going to market with a strategy that bolts together these three separate products and that's not necessarily a bad strategy because combined they can claim even more depth and breadth eric what do you make of this data yeah just like this chart there is a lot there right so uh on a macro level let's just the obvious situation here is this is a crowded crowded marketplace and consolidation is needed i had one panelist say to me yesterday i can't wait for this to consolidate like this is just crazy that there needs to be consolidation uh now to your point about cisco cisco's taking the same playbook they did with security right they're going out and they're buying great tools and then now we have to make sure that they figure out a way to integrate these better uh the security side took them a little while to do that but they're getting there hopefully they can do this a little bit quicker here what we did here is that um appd is actually very strong on the application monitoring side for the core apm uh maybe not so much on these others and then that's why they go out and do what you're doing what you're saying about now so hopefully they will get there um kind of talking across the board pricing was a problem for all of them right so it just seems to me that you know the end users the buyers just feel like hey i shouldn't be paying this much for this we've got a lot of choices maybe there's some collusion on the pricing side but we have to figure it out because they do not want to pay this much for it it was the number one concern across almost every single vendor another aspect that i really want to call out on this and is something that our research team found really interesting and it's really about the digital transformation as digital transformation continues the workloads are moving towards the cloud and we're clearly seeing in this data that that's benefiting the newer players the data dogs and the new relics versus some of the others like a dynatrace and a splunk and when you go and actually look at the cloud sas integration answer option specifically it becomes very very obvious um you know splunk had a 38 on that number whereas datadog had 61 new relic at 58. so it's just very clear as a digital transformation increases workloads on observability it is lifting all boats but it's lifting some faster than others great points um all right as we said at the top you've got a set of incumbents they're jockeying for position you've got companies like datadog it's got as eric just mentioned strong cloud model elastic's got got the open source mojo and they're going after splunk's install base as is datadog and then you see startups like chaos search they're out now talking about how to do log analytics they do more than that but that's their sort of starter use case and they're going after the elastic and the elk stack which got dinged a bit in the survey on simplicity uh you know ease of standing it up and and so forth not a weakness if you're comfortable with full open source model but maybe not well understood as some of the other solution oriented plays and then you got other new entrants which are not covered in the drill down they're not as pervasive in the marketplace but guys like honeycomb and observe eric you mentioned some others that came out in the panel vmware even is getting into the act they're positioning tanzu around observability with really a strong kubernetes emphasis and there's dozens of other players in the space which we haven't talked about so eric this is jump ball and i'll give you the final word give us your last thoughts yeah there's a again a lot there it's such an interesting space like even ibm right they go out and buy turbonomics right everyone seems to be playing and not only that the ones that are already playing are expanding data dog comes out and says hey we do security now so i don't really know where this is going to end but there's too much happening there needs to be some sort of you know order out of the chaos uh to your point about some of the emerging names we just launched our emerging technology survey this week david those are the ones where we're going to see data on those names so stay tuned for that we don't track them in the core tsis which are more mature public vendors but we will be getting some data on those uh but to your point i really do believe that this space is rapidly expanding and i just kind of want to leave everyone with this there's a lot of growth still left in the panel yesterday i basically said to people how much of your infrastructure are you monitoring today versus how much you want to and the answer was around 65 to 70 percent being monitored now and without a doubt they all want to get to 100 so there is still a lot of room to grow in this space but i just don't know if there's enough room for all of these people that are basically going after the same percentage points so what we're seeing from a vendor strategy now is bundling they're trying to bundle because that's the way they're gonna actually gain that market share right and uh just one last point to you for elastic a lot of people still view elastic as a search functionality so even though they have use cases and observability i still think there's a lot of people that the elastic got into the elk stack in general got into their enterprise for search so that is still kind of where they are and maybe they're not moving as fast as a data dog or a new relic in pure full stack observability eric so great to have you on you guys cover so much space so we're gonna leave it there for now we really appreciate our friends at etr for the the work that they do and thank you eric for joining us today and sharing your insights great stuff welcome dave i always enjoy talking to you you know that and uh everyone else we'll be back in a couple of months with our predictions as well so yeah that's right yeah look for those all right remember these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen all you gotta do is search breaking analysis podcast check out etr's website etr dot plus they've got a whole new packaging and and pricing models so check that out we also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com and you can get in touch with me david.velante at siliconangle.com or at divalante on twitter i'm on linkedin all the time this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr have a great week everybody stay safe be well and we'll see you next time you

>>mhm, mm. All right. Mhm. Mhm, mm mm. Mhm. Yeah, mm. Mhm. Yeah, yeah. Mhm, mm. Okay. Mm. Yeah, Yeah. >>Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Welcome to future cloud made possible by Cisco. My name is Dave Volonte and I'm your host. You know, the cloud is evolving like the universe is expanding at an accelerated pace. No longer is the cloud. Just a remote set of services, you know, somewhere up there. No, the cloud, it's extending to on premises. Data centers are reaching into the cloud through adjacent locations. Clouds are being connected together to each other and eventually they're gonna stretch to the edge and the far edge workloads, location latency, local laws and economics will define the value customers can extract from this new cloud model which unifies the operating experience independent of location. Cloud is moving rapidly from a spare capacity slash infrastructure resource to a platform for application innovation. Now, the challenge is how to make this new cloud simple, secure, agile and programmable. Oh and it has to be cloud agnostic. Now, the real opportunity for customers is to tap into a layer across clouds and data centers that abstracts the underlying complexity of the respective clouds and locations. And it's got to accommodate both mission critical workloads as well as general purpose applications across the spectrum cost, effectively enabling simplicity with minimal labor costs requires infrastructure i. E. Hardware, software, tooling, machine intelligence, AI and partnerships within an ecosystem. It's kind of accommodate a variety of application deployment models like serverless and containers and support for traditional work on VMS. By the way, it also requires a roadmap that will take us well into the next decade because the next 10 years they will not be like the last So why are we here? Well, the cube is covering Cisco's announcements today that connect next generation compute shared memory, intelligent networking and storage resource pools, bringing automation, visibility, application assurance and security to this new decentralized cloud. Now, of course in today's world you wouldn't be considered modern without supporting containers ai and operational tooling that is demanded by forward thinking practitioners. So sit back and enjoy the cubes, special coverage of Cisco's future cloud >>From around the globe. It's the Cube presenting future cloud one event, a world of opportunities brought to you by Cisco. >>We're here with Dejoy Pandey, a VP of emerging tech and incubation at Cisco. V. Joy. Good to see you. Welcome. >>Good to see you as well. Thank you Dave and pleasure to be here. >>So in 2020 we kind of had to redefine the notion of agility when it came to digital business or you know organizations, they had to rethink their concept of agility and business resilience. What are you seeing in terms of how companies are thinking about their operations in this sort of new abnormal context? >>Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think what what we're seeing is that pretty much the application is the center of the universe. And if you think about it, the application is actually driving brand recognition and the brand experience and the brand value. So the example I like to give is think about a banking app uh recovered that did everything that you would expect it to do. But if you wanted to withdraw cash from your bank you would actually have to go to the ATM and punch in some numbers and then look at your screen and go through a process and then finally withdraw cash. Think about what that would have, what what that would do in a post pandemic era where people are trying to go contact less. And so in a situation like this, the digitization efforts that all of these companies are going through and and the modernization of the automation is what is driving brand recognition, brand trust and brand experience. >>Yeah. So I was gonna ask you when I heard you say that, I was gonna say well, but hasn't it always been about the application, but it's different now, isn't it? So I wonder if you talk more about how the application is experience is changing. Yes. As a result of this new digital mandate. But how should organizations think about optimizing those experiences in this new world? >>Absolutely. And I think, yes, it's always been about the application, but it's becoming the center of the universe right now because all interactions with customers and consumers and even businesses are happening through that application. So if the application is unreliable or if the application is not available is untrusted insecure, uh, there's a problem. There's a problem with the brand, with the company and the trust that consumers and customers have with our company. So if you think about an application developer, the weight he or she is carrying on their shoulders is tremendous because you're thinking about rolling features quickly to be competitive. That's the only way to be competitive in this world. You need to think about availability and resiliency. Like you pointed out and experience, you need to think about security and trust. Am I as a customer or consumer willing to put my data in that application? So velocity, availability, Security and trust and all of that depends on the developer. So the experience, the security, the trust, the feature, velocity is what is driving the brand experience now. >>So are those two tensions that say agility and trust, you know, Zero Trust used to be a buzzword now it's a mandate. But are those two vectors counter posed? Can they be merged into one and not affect each other? Does the question makes sense? Right? Security usually handcuffs my speed. But how do you address that? >>Yeah that's a great question. And I think if you think about it today that's the way things are. And if you think about this developer all they want to do is run fast because they want to build those features out and they're going to pick and choose a piece and services that matter to them and build up their app and they want the complexities of the infrastructure and security and trust to be handled by somebody else is not that they don't care about it but they want that abstraction so that is handled by somebody else. And typically within an organization we've seen in the past where this friction between Netapp Sec ops I. T. Tops and and the cloud platform Teams and the developer on one side and these these frictions and these meetings and toil actually take a toll on the developer and that's why companies and apps and developers are not as agile as they would like to be. So I think but it doesn't have to be that way. So I think if there was something that would allow a developer to pick and choose, discover the apis that they would like to use connect those api is in a very simple manner and then be able to scale them out and be able to secure them and in fact not just secure them during the run time when it's deployed. We're right off the back when the fire up that I'd and start developing the application. Wouldn't that be nice? And as you do that, there is a smooth transition between that discovery connectivity and ease of consumption and security with the idea cops. Netapp psych ops teams and see source to ensure that they are not doing something that the organization won't allow them to do in a very seamless manner. >>I want to go back and talk about security but I want to add another complexity before we do that. So for a lot of organizations in the public cloud became a staple of keeping the lights on during the pandemic but it brings new complexities and differences in terms of latency security, which I want to come back to deployment models etcetera. So what are some of the specific networking challenges that you've seen with the cloud native architecture is how are you addressing those? >>Yeah. In fact, if you think about cloud, to me that is a that is a different way of seeing a distributed system. And if you think about a distributed system, what is at the center of the distributed system is the network. So my my favorite comment here is that the network is the wrong time for all distribute systems and modern applications. And that is true because if you think about where things are today, like you said, there's there's cloud assets that a developer might use in the banking example that I gave earlier. I mean if you want to build a contact less app so that you get verified, a customer gets verified on the app. They walk over to the ATM and they were broadcast without touching that ATM. In that kind of an example, you're touching the mobile Rus, let's say U S A P is you're touching cloud API is where the back end might sit. You're touching on primary PS maybe it's an oracle database or a mainframe even where transactional data exists. You're touching branch pipes were the team actually exists and the need for consistency when you withdraw cash and you're carrying all of this and in fact there might be customer data sitting in salesforce somewhere. So it's cloud API is a song premise branch. It's ass is mobile and you need to bring all of these things together and over time you will see more and more of these API is coming from various as providers. So it's not just cloud providers but saas providers that the developer has to use. And so this complexity is very, very real. And this complexity is across the wide open internet. So the application is built across this wide open internet. So the problems of discovery ability, the problems of being able to simply connect these apis and manage the data flow across these apis. The problems of consistency of policy and consumption because all of these areas have their own nuances and what they mean, what the arguments mean and what the A. P. I. Actually means. How do you make it consistent and easy for the developer? That is the networking problem. And that is a problem of building out this network, making traffic engineering easy, making policy easy, making scale out, scale down easy, all of that our networking problems. And so we are solving those problems uh Francisco. >>Yeah the internet is the new private network but it's not so private. So I want to go back to security. I often say that the security model of building a moat, you dig the moat, you get the hardened castle that's just outdated now that the queen is left her castle, I always say it's dangerous out there. And the point is you touched on this, it's it's a huge decentralized system and with distributed apps and data, that notion of perimeter security, it's just no longer valid. So I wonder if you could talk more about how you're thinking about this problem and you definitely address some of that in your earlier comments. But what are you specifically doing to address this and how do you see it evolving? >>Yeah, I mean, that's that's a very important point. I mean, I think if you think about again the wide open internet being the wrong time for all modern applications, what is perimeter security in this uh in this new world? I mean, it's to me it boils down to securing an API because again, going with that running example of this contact lists cash withdrawal feature for a bank, the ap wherever it's it's entre branch SAs cloud, IOS android doesn't matter that FBI is your new security perimeter. And the data object that is trying to access is also the new security perimeter. So if you can secure ap to ap communication and P two data object communication, you should be good. So that is the new frontier. But guess what software is buggy? Everybody's software not saying Cisco software, everybody's Softwares buggy. Uh software is buggy, humans are not reliable and so things mature, things change, things evolve over time. So there needs to be defense in depth. So you need to secure at the API layer had the data object layer, but you also need to secure at every layer below it so that you have good defense and depth if any layer in between is not working out properly. So for us that means ensuring ap to ap communication, not just during long time when the app has been deployed and is running, but during deployment and also during the development life cycle. So as soon as the developer launches an ID, they should be able to figure out that this api is security uses reputable, it has compliant, it is compliant to my to my organization's needs because it is hosted, let's say from Germany and my organization wants appears to be used only if they are being hosted out of Germany so compliance needs and and security needs and reputation. Is it available all the time? Is it secure? And being able to provide that feedback all the time between the security teams and the developer teams in a very seamless real time manner. Yes, again, that's something that we're trying to solve through some of the services that we're trying to produce in san Francisco. >>Yeah, I mean those that layered approach that you're talking about is critical because every layer has, you know, some vulnerability. And so you you've got to protect that with some depth in terms of thinking about security, how should we think about where where Cisco's primary value add is, I mean as parts of the interview has a great security business is growing business, Is it your intention to to to to add value across the entire value chain? I mean obviously you can't do everything so you've got a partner but so has the we think about Cisco's role over the next I'm thinking longer term over the over the next decade. >>Yeah, I mean I think so, we do come in with good strength from the runtime side of the house. So if you think about the security aspects that we haven't played today, uh there's a significant set of assets that we have around user security around around uh with with do and password less. We have significant assets in runtime security. I mean, the entire portfolio that Cisco brings to the table is around one time security, the secure X aspects around posture and policy that will bring to the table. And as you see, Cisco evolve over time, you will see us shifting left. I mean, I know it's an overused term, but that is where security is moving towards. And so that is where api security and data security are moving towards. So learning what we have during runtime because again, runtime is where you learn what's available and that's where you can apply all of the M. L. And I models to figure out what works what doesn't taking those learnings, Taking those catalogs, taking that reputation database and moving it into the deployment and development life cycle and making sure that that's part of that entire they have to deploy to runtime chain is what you will see. Cisco do overtime. >>That's fantastic phenomenal perspective video. Thanks for coming on the cube. Great to have you and look forward to having you again. >>Absolutely. Thank you >>in a moment. We'll talk hybrid cloud applications operations and potential gaps that need to be addressed with costume, Das and VJ Venugopal. You're watching the cube the global leader in high tech coverage. Mhm >>You were cloud. It isn't just a cloud. It's everything flowing through it. It's alive. Yeah, connecting users, applications, data and devices and whether it's cloud, native hybrid or multi cloud, it's more distributed than ever. One company takes you inside, giving you the visibility and the insight you need to take action. >>One company >>has the vision to understand it, all the experience, to securely connect at all on any platform in any environment. So you can work wherever work takes you in a cloud first world between your cloud and being cloud smart, there's a bridge. Cisco the bridge to possible. >>Okay. We're here with costume does, who is the Senior Vice President, General Manager of Cloud and compute at Cisco. And VJ Venugopal, who is the Senior Director for Product Management for cloud compute at Cisco. KTV. J. Good to see you guys welcome. >>Great to see you. Dave to be here. >>Katie, let's talk about cloud you And I last time we're face to face was in Barcelona where we love talking about cloud and I always say to people look, Cisco is not a hyper Scaler, but the big public cloud players, they're like giving you a gift. They spent almost actually over $100 billion last year on Capex. The big four. So you can build on that infrastructure. Cisco is all about hybrid cloud. So help us understand the strategy. There may be how you can leverage that build out and importantly what a customer is telling you they want out of hybrid cloud. >>Yeah, no that's that's that's a perfect question to start with. Dave. So yes. So the hybrid hyper scholars have invested heavily building out their assets. There's a great lot of innovation coming from that space. Um There's also a great innovation set of innovation coming from open source and and that's another source of uh a gift. In fact the I. T. Community. But when I look at my customers they're saying well how do I in the context of my business implement a strategy that takes into consideration everything that I have to manage um in terms of my contemporary work clothes, in terms of my legacy, in terms of everything my developer community wants to do on DEVOPS and really harnessed that innovation that's built in the public cloud, that built an open source that built internally to me, and that naturally leads them down the path of a hybrid cloud strategy. And Siskel's mission is to provide for that imperative, the simplest more power, more powerful platform to deliver hybrid cloud and that platform. Uh It's inter site we've been investing in. Inner side, it's a it's a SAS um service um inner side delivers to them that bridge between their estates of today that were closer today, the need for them to be guardians of enterprise grade resiliency with the agility uh that's needed for the future. The embracing of cloud. Native of new paradigms of deVOPS models, the embracing of innovation coming from public cloud and an open source and bridging those two is what inner side has been doing. That's kind of that's kind of the crux of our strategy. Of course we have the entire portfolio behind it to support any, any version of that, whether that is on prem in the cloud, hybrid, cloud, multi cloud and so forth. >>But but if I understand it correctly from what I heard earlier today, the inter site is really a linchpin of that strategy, is it not? >>It really is and may take a second to totally familiarize those who don't know inner side with what it is. We started building this platform quite a few years back and we we built a ground up to be an immensely scalable SAs, super simple hybrid cloud platform and it's a platform that provides a slew of service is inherently and then on top of that there are suites of services, the sweets of services that are tied to infrastructure, automation. Cisco, as well as Cisco partners. The streets of services that have nothing to do with Cisco um products from a hardware perspective. And it's got to do with more cloud orchestration and cloud native and inner side and its suite of services um continue to kind of increase in pace and velocity of delivery video. Just over the last two quarters we've announced a whole number of things will go a little bit deeper into some of those but they span everything from infrastructure automation to kubernetes and delivering community than service to workload optimization and having visibility into your cloud estate. How much it's costing into your on premise state into your work clothes and how they're performing. It's got integrations with other tooling with both Cisco Abdi uh as well as non Cisco um, assets and then and then it's got a whole slew of capabilities around orchestration because at the end of the day, the job of it is to deliver something that works and works at scale that you can monitor and make sure is resilient and that includes that. That includes a workflow and ability to say, you know, do this and do this and do this. Or it includes other ways of automation, like infrastructure as code and so forth. So it includes self service that so that expand that. But inside the world's simplest hybrid cloud platform, rapidly evolving rapidly delivering new services. And uh we'll talk about some more of those day. >>Great, thank you, Katie VJ. Let's bring you into the discussion. You guys recently made an announcement with the ASCIi corp. I was stoked because even though it seemed like a long time ago, pre covid, I mean in my predictions post, I said, ha, she was a name to watch our data partners. Et are you look at the survey data and they really have become mainstream? You know, particularly we think very important in the whole multi cloud discussion. And as well, they're attractive to customers. They have open source offerings. You can very easily experiment. Smaller organizations can take advantage. But if you want to upgrade to enterprise features like clustering or whatever, you can plug right in. Not a big complicated migration. So a very, very compelling story there. Why is this important? Why is this partnership important to Cisco's customers? Mhm. >>Absolutely. When the spot on every single thing that you said, let me just start by paraphrasing what ambition statement is in the cloud and computer group. Right ambition statement is to enable a cloud operating model for hybrid cloud. And what we mean by that is the ability to have extreme amounts of automation orchestration and observe ability across your hybrid cloud idea operations now. Uh So developers and applications team get a great amount of agility in public clouds and we're on a mission to bring that kind of agility and automation to the private cloud and to the data centers and inter site is a quickie platform and lynchpin to enable that kind of operations. Uh, Cloud like operations in the in the private clouds and the key uh As you rightly said, harsher car is the, you know, they were the inventors of the concept of infrastructure at school and in terra form, they have the world's number one infrastructure as code platform. So it became a natural partnership for Cisco to enter into a technology partnership with harsher card to integrate inter site with hardship cops, terra form to bring the benefits of infrastructure as code to the to hybrid cloud operations. And we've entered into a very tight integration and uh partnership where we allow developers devops teams and infrastructure or administrators to allow the use of infrastructure as code in a SAS delivered manner for both public and private club. So it's a very unique partnership and a unique integration that allows the benefits of cloud managed i E C. To be delivered to hybrid cloud operations. And we've been very happy and proud to be partnering with Russian government shutdown. >>Yeah, Terra form gets very high marks from customers. The a lot of value there. The inner side integration adds to that value. Let's stay on cloud native for a minute. We all talk about cloud native cady was sort of mentioning before you got the the core apps, uh you want to protect those, make sure their enterprise create but they gotta be cool as well for developers. You're connecting to other apps in the cloud or wherever. How are you guys thinking about this? Cloud native trend? What other movies are you making in this regard? >>I mean cloud native is there is one of the paramount I. D. Trends of today and we're seeing massive amounts of adoption of cloud native architecture in all modern applications. Now, Cloud Native has become synonymous with kubernetes these days and communities has emerged as a de facto cloud native platform for modern cloud native app development. Now, what Cisco has done is we have created a brand new SAs delivered kubernetes service that is integrated with inter site, we call it the inter site community service for A. Ks. And this just geared a little over one month ago. Now, what interstate kubernetes service does is it delivers a cloud managed and cloud delivered kubernetes service that can be deployed on any supported target infrastructure. It could be a Cisco infrastructure, it could be a third party infrastructure or it could even be public club. But think of it as kubernetes anywhere delivered as says, managed from inside. It's a very powerful capability that we've just released into inter site to enable the power of communities and clog native to be used to be used anywhere. But today we made a very important aspect because we are today announced the brand new Cisco service mess manager, the Cisco service mesh manager, which is available as an extension to the KS are doing decide basically we see service measures as being the future of networking right in the past we had layer to networking and layer three networking and now with service measures, application networking and layer seven networking is the next frontier of, of networking. But you need to think about networking for the application age very differently how it is managed, how it is deployed. It needs to be ready, developer friendly and developer centric. And so what we've done is we've built out an application networking strategy and built out the service match manager as a very simple way to deliver application networking through the consumers, like like developers and application teams. This is built on an acquisition that Cisco made recently of Banzai Cloud and we've taken the assets of Banzai Cloud and deliver the Cisco service mesh manager as an extension to KS. That brings the promise of future networking and modern networking to application and development gives >>God thank you. BJ. And so Katie, let's let's let's wrap this up. I mean, there was a lot in this announcement today, a lot of themes around openness, heterogeneity and a lot of functionality and value. Give us your final thoughts. >>Absolutely. So, couple of things to close on, first of all, um Inner side is the simplest, most powerful hybrid cloud platform out there. It enables that that cloud operating model that VJ talked about, but enables that across cloud. So it's sad, it's relatively easy to get into it and give it a spin so that I'd highly encouraged anybody who's not familiar with it to try it out and anybody who is familiar with it to look at it again, because they're probably services in there that you didn't notice or didn't know last time you looked at it because we're moving so fast. So that's the first thing. The second thing I close with is um, we've been talking about this bridge that's kind of bridging, bridging uh your your on prem your open source, your cloud estates. And it's so important to to make that mental leap because uh in past generation, we used to talk about integrating technologies together and then with public cloud, we started talking about move to public cloud, but it's really how do we integrate, how do we integrate all of that innovation that's coming from the hyper scale, is everything they're doing to innovate superfast, All of that innovation is coming from open source, all of that innovation that's coming from from companies around the world, including Cisco, How do we integrate that to deliver an outcome? Because at the end of the day, if you're a cloud of Steam, if you're an idea of Steam, your job is to deliver an outcome and our mission is to make it super simple for you to do that. That's the mission we're on and we're hoping that everybody that's excited as we are about how simple we made that. >>Great, thank you a lot in this announcement today, appreciate you guys coming back on and help us unpack you know, some of the details. Thank thanks so much. Great having you. >>Thank you >>Dave in a moment. We're gonna come back and talk about disruptive technologies and futures in the age of hybrid cloud with Vegas Rattana and James leach. You're watching the cube, the global leader in high tech coverage. >>What if your server box >>wasn't a box at >>all? What if it could do anything run anything? >>Be any box you >>need with massive scale precision and intelligence managed and optimized from the cloud integrated with all your clouds, private, public or hybrid. So you can build whatever you need today and tomorrow. The potential of this box is unlimited. Unstoppable unseen ever before. Unbox the future with Cisco UCS X series powered by inter site >>Cisco. >>The bridge to possible. Yeah >>we're here with Vegas Rattana who's the director of product management for Pcs at Cisco. And James Leach is the director of business development for U. C. S. At the Cisco as well. We're gonna talk about computing in the age of hybrid cloud. Welcome gentlemen. Great to see you. >>Thank you. >>Thank you because let's start with you and talk about a little bit about computing architectures. We know that they're evolving. They're supporting new data intensive and other workloads especially as high performance workload requirements. What's this guy's point of view on all this? I mean specifically interested in your thoughts on fabrics. I mean it's kind of your wheelhouse, you've got accelerators. What are the workloads that are driving these evolving technologies and how how is it impacting customers? What are you seeing? >>Sure. First of all, very excited to be here today. You're absolutely right. The pace of innovation and foundational platform ingredients have just been phenomenal in recent years. The fabric that's writers that drives the processing power, the Golden city all have been evolving just an amazing place and the peace will only pick up further. But ultimately it is all about applications and the way applications leverage those innovations. And we do see applications evolving quite rapidly. The new classes of applications are evolving to absorb those innovations and deliver much better business values. Very, very exciting time step. We're talking about the impact on the customers. Well, these innovations have helped them very positively. We do see significant challenges in the data center with the point product based approach of delivering these platforms, innovations to the applications. What has happened is uh, these innovations today are being packaged as point point products to meet the needs of a specific application and as you know, the different applications have no different needs. Some applications need more to abuse, others need more memory, yet others need, you know, more course, something different kinds of fabrics. As a result, if you walk into a data center today, it is very common to see many different point products in the data center. This creates a manageability challenge. Imagine the aspect of managing, you know, several different form factors want you to you purpose built servers. The variety of, you know, a blade form factor, you know, this reminds me of the situation we had before smartphones arrived. You remember the days when you when we used to have a GPS device for navigation system, a cool music device for listening to the music. A phone device for making a call camera for taking the photos right? And we were all excited about it. It's when a smart phones the right that we realized all those cool innovations could be delivered in a much simpler, much convenient and easy to consume through one device. And you know, I could uh, that could completely transform our experience. So we see the customers were benefiting from these innovations to have a way to consume those things in a much more simplistic way than they are able to go to that. >>And I like to look, it's always been about the applications. But to your point, the applications are now moving in a much faster pace. The the customer experience is expectation is way escalated. And when you combine all these, I love your analogy there because because when you combine all these capabilities, it allows us to develop new Applications, new capabilities, new customer experiences. So that's that I always say the next 10 years, they ain't gonna be like the last James Public Cloud obviously is heavily influencing compute design and and and customer operating models. You know, it's funny when the public cloud first hit the market, everyone we were swooning about low cost standard off the shelf servers in storage devices, but it quickly became obvious that customers needed more. So I wonder if you could comment on this. How are the trends that we've seen from the hyper scale, Is how are they filtering into on prem infrastructure and maybe, you know, maybe there's some differences there as well that you could address. >>Absolutely. So I'd say, first of all, quite frankly, you know, public cloud has completely changed the expectations of how our customers want to consume, compute, right? So customers, especially in a public cloud environment, they've gotten used to or, you know, come to accept that they should consume from the application out, right? They want a very application focused view, a services focused view of the world. They don't want to think about infrastructure, right? They want to think about their application, they wanna move outward, Right? So this means that the infrastructure basically has to meet the application where it lives. So what that means for us is that, you know, we're taking a different approach. We're we've decided that we're not going to chase this single pane of glass view of the world, which, frankly, our customers don't want, they don't want a single pane of glass. What they want is a single operating model. They want an operating model that's similar to what they can get at the public with the public cloud, but they wanted across all of their cloud options they wanted across private cloud across hybrid cloud options as well. So what that means is they don't want to just consume infrastructure services. They want all of their cloud services from this operating model. So that means that they may want to consume infrastructure services for automation Orchestration, but they also need kubernetes services. They also need virtualization services, They may need terror form workload optimization. All of these services have to be available, um, from within the operating model, a consistent operating model. Right? So it doesn't matter whether you're talking about private cloud, hybrid cloud anywhere where the application lives. It doesn't matter what matters is that we have a consistent model that we think about it from the application out. And frankly, I'd say this has been the stumbling block for private cloud. Private cloud is hard, right. This is why it hasn't been really solved yet. This is why we had to take a brand new approach. And frankly, it's why we're super excited about X series and inter site as that operating model that fits the hybrid cloud better than anything else we've seen >>is acute. First, first time technology vendor has ever said it's not about a single pane of glass because I've been hearing for decades, we're gonna deliver a single pane of glass is going to be seamless and it never happens. It's like a single version of the truth. It's aspirational and, and it's just not reality. So can we stay in the X series for a minute James? Uh, maybe in this context, but in the launch that we saw today was like a fire hose of announcements. So how does the X series fit into the strategy with inter site and hybrid cloud and this operating model that you're talking about? >>Right. So I think it goes hand in hand, right. Um the two pieces go together very well. So we have uh, you know, this idea of a single operating model that is definitely something that our customers demand, right? It's what we have to have, but at the same time we need to solve the problems of the cost was talking about before we need a single infrastructure to go along with that single operating model. So no longer do we need to have silos within the infrastructure that give us different operating models are different sets of benefits when you want infrastructure that can kind of do all of those configurations, all those applications. And then, you know, the operating model is very important because that's where we abstract the complexity that could come with just throwing all that technology at the infrastructure so that, you know, this is, you know, the way that we think about is the data center is not centered right? It's no longer centered applications live everywhere. Infrastructure lives everywhere. And you know, we need to have that consistent operating model but we need to do things within the infrastructure as well to take full advantage. Right? So we want all the sas benefits um, of a Ci CD model of, you know, the inter site can bring, we want all that that proactive recommendation engine with the power of A I behind it. We want the connected support experience went all of that. They want to do it across the single infrastructure and we think that that's how they tie together, that's why one or the other doesn't really solve the problem. But both together, that's why we're here. That's why we're super excited. >>So Vegas, I make you laugh a little bit when I was an analyst at I D C, I was deep in infrastructure and then when I left I was doing, I was working with application development heads and like you said, uh infrastructure, it was just a, you know, roadblock but but so the target speakers with Cisco announced UCS a decade ago, I totally missed it. I didn't understand it. I thought it was Cisco getting into the traditional server business and it wasn't until I dug in then I realized that your vision was really to transform infrastructure, deployment and management and change them all. I was like, okay, I got that wrong uh but but so let's talk about the the ecosystem and the joint development efforts that are going on there, X series, how does it fit into this, this converged infrastructure business that you've, you've built and grown with partners, you got storage partners like Netapp and Pure, you've got i SV partners in the ecosystem. We see cohesive, he has been a while since we we hung out with all these companies at the Cisco live hopefully next year, but tell us what's happening in that regard. >>Absolutely, I'm looking forward to seeing you in the Cisco live next year. You know, they have absolutely you brought up a very good point. You see this is about the ecosystem that it brings together, it's about making our customers bring up the entire infrastructure from the core foundational hardware all the way to the application level so that they can, you know, go off and running pretty quick. The converse infrastructure has been one of the corners 2.5 hour of the strategy, as you pointed out in the last decade. And and and I'm I'm very glad to share that converse infrastructure continues to be a very popular architecture for several enterprise applications. Seven today, in fact, it is the preferred architecture for mission critical applications where performance resiliency latency are the critical requirements there almost a de facto standards for large scale deployments of virtualized and business critical data bases and so forth with X series with our partnerships with our Stories partners. Those architectures will absolutely continue and will get better. But in addition as a hybrid cloud world, so we are now bringing in the benefits of canvas in infrastructure uh to the world of hybrid cloud will be supporting the hybrid cloud applications now with the CIA infrastructure that we have built together with our strong partnership with the Stories partners to deliver the same benefits to the new ways applications as well. >>Yeah, that's what customers want. They want that cloud operating model. Right, go ahead please. >>I was going to say, you know, the CIA model will continue to thrive. It will transition uh it will expand the use cases now for the new use cases that were beginning to, you know, say they've absolutely >>great thank you for that. And James uh have said earlier today, we heard this huge announcement, um a lot of lot of parts to it and we heard Katie talk about this initiative is it's really computing built for the next decade. I mean I like that because it shows some vision and you've got a road map that you've thought through the coming changes in workloads and infrastructure management and and some of the technology that you can take advantage of beyond just uh, you know, one or two product cycles. So, but I want to understand what you've done here specifically that you feel differentiates you from other competitive architectures in the industry. >>Sure. You know that's a great question. Number one. Number two, um I'm frankly a little bit concerned at times for for customers in general for our customers customers in general because if you look at what's in the market, right, these rinse and repeat systems that were effectively just rehashes of the same old design, right? That we've seen since before 2000 and nine when we brought you C. S to market these are what we're seeing over and over and over again. That's that's not really going to work anymore frankly. And I think that people are getting lulled into a false sense of security by seeing those things continually put in the market. We rethought this from the ground up because frankly future proofing starts now, right? If you're not doing it right today, future proofing isn't even on your radar because you're not even you're not even today proved. So we re thought the entire chassis, the entire architecture from the ground up. Okay. If you look at other vendors, if you look at other solutions in the market, what you'll see is things like management inside the chassis. That's a great example, daisy chaining them together >>like who >>needs that? Who wants that? Like that kind of complexity is first of all, it's ridiculous. Um, second of all, um, if you want to manage across clouds, you have to do it from the cloud, right. It's just common sense. You have to move management where it can have the scale and the scope that it needs to impact your entire domain, your world, which is much larger now than it was before. We're talking about true hybrid cloud here. Right. So we had to solve certain problems that existed in the traditional architecture. You know, I can't tell you how many times I heard you talk about the mid plane is a great example. You know, the mid plane and a chastity is a limiting factor. It limits us on how much we can connect or how much bandwidth we have available to the chassis. It limits us on air flow and other things. So how do you solve that problem? Simple. Just get rid of it. Like we just we took it out, right. It's not no longer a problem. We designed an architecture that doesn't need it. It doesn't rely on it. No forklift upgrades. So, as we start moving down the path of needing liquid cooling or maybe we need to take advantage of some new, high performance, low latency fabrics. We can do that with almost. No problem at all. Right, So, we don't have any forklift upgrades. Park your forklift on the side. You won't need it anymore because you can upgrade gradually. You can move along as technologies come into existence that maybe don't even exist. They they may not even be on our radar today to take advantage of. But I like to think of these technologies, they're really important to our customers. These are, you know, we can call them disruptive technologies. The reality is that we don't want to disrupt our customers with these technologies. We want to give them these technologies so they can go out and be disruptive themselves. Right? And this is the way that we've designed this from the ground up to be easy to consume and to take advantage of what we know about today and what's coming in the future that we may not even know about. So we think this is a way to give our customers that ultimate capability flexibility and and future proofing. >>I like I like that phrase True hybrid cloud. It's one that we've used for years and but to me this is all about that horizontal infrastructure that can support that vision of what true hybrid cloud is. You can support the mission critical applications. You can you can develop on the system and you can support a variety of workload. You're not locked into one narrow stovepipe and that does have legs, Vegas and James. Thanks so much for coming on the program. Great to see you. >>Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. >>When we return shortly thomas Shiva who leads Cisco's data center group will be here and thomas has some thoughts about the transformation of networking I. T. Teams. You don't wanna miss what he has to say. You're watching the cube. The global leader in high tech company. Okay, >>mm. Mhm, mm. Okay. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. >>Mhm. Yes. Yeah. Okay. We're here with thomas Shiva who is the Vice president of Product Management, A K A VP of all things data center, networking STN cloud. You name it in that category. Welcome thomas. Good to see you again. >>Hey Sam. Yes. Thanks for having me on. >>Yeah, it's our pleasure. Okay, let's get right into observe ability. When you think about observe ability, visibility, infrastructure monitoring problem resolution across the network. How does cloud change things? In other words, what are the challenges that networking teams are currently facing as they're moving to the cloud and trying to implement hybrid cloud? >>Yeah. Yeah, visibility as always is very, very important. And it's quite frankly, it's not just it's not just the networking team is actually the application team to write. And as you pointed out, the underlying impetus to what's going on here is the data center is where the data is. And I think we set us a couple years back and really what happens the applications are going to be deployed uh in different locations, right. Whether it's in a public cloud, whether it's on prayer, uh, and they are built differently right there, built as microservices, they might actually be distributed as well at the same application. And so what that really means is you need as an operator as well as actually a user better visibility. Where are my pieces and you need to be able to correlate between where the app is and what the underlying network is that is in place in these different locations. So you have actually a good knowledge while the app is running so fantastic or sometimes not. So I think that's that's really the problem statement. What what we're trying to go afterwards, observe ability. >>Okay, and let's double click on that. So a lot of customers tell me that you gotta stare at log files until your eyes bleed and you gotta bring in guys with lab coats who have phds to figure all this stuff out. So, so you just described, it's getting more complex, but at the same time you have to simplify things. So how how are you doing that, >>correct? So what we basically have done is we have this fantastic product that that is called 1000 Ice. And so what this does is basically as the name, which I think is a fantastic fantastic name. You have these sensors everywhere. Um, and you can have a good correlation on uh links between if I run from a site to aside from a site to a cloud, from a cloud to cloud and you basically can measure what is the performance of these links. And so what we're, what we're doing here is we're actually extending the footprint of these thousands agent. Right? Instead of just having uh inversion machine clouds, we are now embedding them with the Cisco network devices. Right? We announced this with the catalyst 9000 and we're extending this now to our 8000 catalyst product line for the for the SD were in products as well as to the data center products the next line. Um and so what you see is is, you know, half a saying, you have 1000 eyes, you get a million insights and you get a billion dollar of improvements uh for how your applications run. And this is really uh, the power of tying together the footprint of where the network is with the visibility, what is going on. So you actually know the application behavior that is attached to this network. >>I see. So okay. So as the cloud evolves and expands it connects your actually enabling 1000 eyes to go further, not just confined within a single data center location, but out to the network across clouds, et cetera, >>correct. Wherever the network is, you're going to have 1000 I sensor and you can't bring this together and you can quite frankly pick if you want to say, hey, I have my application in public cloud provider, a uh, domain one and I have another one domain to, I can't do monitor that link. I can also monitor have a user that has a campus location or branch location. I kind of put an agent there and then I can monitor the connectivity from that branch location all the way to the let's say corporations that data centre, our headquarter or to the cloud. And I can have these probes and just we have visibility and saying, hey, if there's a performance, I know where the issue is and then I obviously can use all the other foods that we have to address those. >>All right, let's talk about the cloud operating model. Everybody tells us it's really the change in the model that drives big numbers in terms of R. O. I. And I want you to maybe address how you're bringing automation and devops to this world of of hybrid and specifically how is Cisco enabling I. T. Organizations to move to a cloud operating model? Is that cloud definition expands? >>Yeah, no that's that's another interesting topic beyond the observe ability. So really, really what we're seeing and this is going on for uh I want to say a couple of years now, it's really this transition from operating infrastructure as a networking team more like a service like what you would expect from a cloud provider. Right? It's really around the network team offering services like a cloud provided us. And that's really what the meaning is of cloud operating model. Right? But this is infrastructure running your own data center where that's linking that infrastructure was whatever runs on the public club is operating and like a cloud service. And so we are on this journey for why? So one of the examples uh then we have removing some of the control software assets, the customers that they can deploy on prayer uh to uh an instance that they can deploy in a cloud provider and just busy, insane. She ate things there and then just run it that way. Right. And so the latest example for this is what we have our identity service engine that is now limited availability available on AWS and will become available in mid this year, both in Italy as unusual as a service. You can just go to market place, you can load it there and now you create, you can start running your policy control in a cloud, managing your access infrastructure in your data center, in your campus wherever you want to do it. And so that's just one example of how we see our customers network operations team taking advantage of a cloud operating model and basically employing their, their tools where they need them and when they need them. >>So what's the scope of, I hope I'm saying it right. Ice, right. I see. I think it's called ice. What's the scope of that like for instance, turn in effect my or even, you know, address simplify my security approach. >>Absolutely. That's now coming to what is the beauty of the product itself? Yes. What you can do is really is that there's a lot of people talking about else. How do I get to zero trust approach to networking? How do I get to a much more dynamic, flexible segmentation in my infrastructure. Again, whether this is only campus X as well as a data center and Ice help today, you can use this as a point to define your policies and then any connect from there. Right. In this particular case we would instant Ice in the cloud as a software load. You now can connect and say, hey, I want to manage and program my network infrastructure and my data center on my campus, going to the respective control over this DNA Center for campus or whether it is the A. C. I. Policy controller. And so yes, what you get as an effect out of this is a very elegant way to automatically manage in one place. What is my policy and then drive the right segmentation in your network infrastructure? >>zero. Trust that, you know, it was pre pandemic. It was kind of a buzzword. Now it's become a mandate. I wonder if we could talk about right. I mean I wonder if you talk about cloud native apps, you got all these developers that are working inside organizations. They're maintaining legacy apps. They're connecting their data to systems in the cloud there, sharing that data. I need these developers, they're rapidly advancing their skill sets. How is Cisco enabling its infrastructure to support this world of cloud? Native making infrastructure more responsive and agile for application developers? >>Yeah. So, you know, we're going to the top of his visibility, we talked about the operating model, how how our network operators actually want to use tools going forward. Now, the next step to this is it's not just the operator. How do they actually, where do they want to put these tools, how they, how they interact with these tools as well as quite frankly as how, let's say, a devops team on application team or Oclock team also wants to take advantage of the program ability of the underlying network. And this is where we're moving into this whole cloud native discussion, right? Which is really two angles, that is the cloud native way, how applications are being built. And then there is the cloud native way, how you interact with infrastructure. Right? And so what we have done is we're a putting in place the on ramps between clouds and then on top of it we're exposing for all these tools, a P I S that can be used in leverage by standard uh cloud tools or uh cloud native tools. Right. And one example or two examples we always have and again, we're on this journey for a while is both answerable uh script capabilities that exist from red hat as well as uh Ashitaka from capabilities that you can orchestrate across infrastructure to drive infrastructure, automation and what what really stands behind it is what either the networking operations team wants to do or even the ap team. They want to be able to describe the application as a code and then drive automatically or programmatically in situation of infrastructure needed for that application. And so what you see us doing is providing all these capability as an interface for all our network tools. Right. Whether it's this ice that I just mentioned, whether this is our D. C. And controllers in the data center, uh whether these are the controllers in the in the campus for all of those, we have cloud native interfaces. So operator or uh devops team can actually interact directly with that infrastructure the way they would do today with everything that lives in the cloud, with everything how they brought the application. >>This is key. You can't even have the conversation of op cloud operating model that includes and comprises on prem without programmable infrastructure. So that's that's very important. Last question, thomas our customers actually using this, they made the announcement today. There are there are there any examples of customers out there doing this? >>We do have a lot of customers out there that are moving down the past and using the D. D. Cisco high performance infrastructure, but also on the compute side as well as on an exercise one of the customers. Uh and this is like an interesting case. It's Rakuten uh record and is a large tackle provider, a mobile five G. Operator uh in Japan and expanding and is in different countries. Uh and so people something oh, cloud, you must be talking about the public cloud provider, the big the big three or four. But if you look at it, there's a lot of the tackle service providers are actually cloud providers as well and expanding very rapidly. And so we're actually very proud to work together with with Rakuten and help them building a high performance uh, data and infrastructure based on hard gig and actually phone a gig uh to drive their deployment to. It's a five G mobile cloud infrastructure, which is which is uh where the whole the whole world where traffic is going. And so it's really exciting to see this development and see the power of automation visibility uh together with the high performance infrastructure becoming reality and delivering actually services, >>you have some great points you're making there. Yes, you have the big four clouds, your enormous, but then you have a lot of actually quite large clouds. Telcos that are either approximate to those clouds or they're in places where those hyper scholars may not have a presence and building out their own infrastructure. So so that's a great case study uh thomas, hey, great having you on. Thanks so much for spending some time with us. >>Yeah, same here. I appreciate it. Thanks a lot. >>I'd like to thank Cisco and our guests today V Joy, Katie VJ, viscous James and thomas for all your insights into this evolving world of hybrid cloud, as we said at the top of the next decade will be defined by an entirely new set of rules. And it's quite possible things will evolve more quickly because the cloud is maturing and has paved the way for a new operating model where everything is delivered as a service, automation has become a mandate because we just can't keep throwing it labor at the problem anymore. And with a I so much more as possible in terms of driving operational efficiencies, simplicity and support of the workloads that are driving the digital transformation that we talk about all the time. This is Dave Volonte and I hope you've enjoyed today's program. Stay Safe, be well and we'll see you next time.

>>From around the globe. It's the cube present a future cloud one event, a world of opportunities brought to you by Cisco. >>Okay. We're here with Thomas Shabbat. Who's the vice president of product management, AKA VP of all things, data center, networking, SDN cloud, you name it in that category. Welcome Thomas. Good to see you again. >>Hey Sam. Yes. Thanks for having me on. >>Yeah, it's our pleasure. Okay. Let's get right into observability. When you think about observability visibility, infrastructure monitoring, problem resolution across the network, how does cloud change thing? In other words, what are the challenges that networking teams are currently facing as they're moving to the cloud and trying to implement hybrid cloud? >>Yeah. Yeah. Uh, visibility as always is very, very important. And it's perfect. It's not just, it's not just the network team is actually the application team too. Right. And as you pointed out, the, the underlying impetus to what's going on here is the data center is wherever the data is. And I think we set as a couple of years back and really what happens, the, the applications are going to be deployed, uh, in different locations, right? Whether it's in a public cloud, whether it's on prem, uh, and they're built differently, right? They are built as microservices. They might actually be distributed as well at the same application. And so what that really means is you need as an operator as well as actually a user, a bit of visibility where I, my pieces and you need to be able to correlate between where the Apres and what the underlying network is. That is a place at these different locations. So you have actually a good knowledge why the app is running so fantastic or sometimes not. So I think that's, that's really the problem statement, uh, what, what we tried to go after was the observability. >>Okay. Let's double click on that. So, so a lot of customers telling me that you got to stare at log files until your eyes bleed. And then you've got to bring in guys with lab coats who have PhDs to figure all this stuff out. So you just described, it's getting more complex, but at the same time, you have to simplify things. So how are you doing that? >>Correct. So what we basically have done is we have this fantastic product that is called thousand eyes. And so what does DAS is basically as the name, which I think is a fantastic, uh, fantastic name. You have these sensors everywhere. Um, and you can have a good correlation on, uh, links between if I run a, a site to a site from a site to a cloud, from a cloud to cloud, and you basically can measure what is the performance of these links? And so what we're, what we're doing here is we're actually extending the footprint of these thousand eyes agent, right. Instead of just having them, uh, in Virgin material clouds, we are now embedding them with the Cisco network devices, right. We announced this was the catalyst of 9,000. And we're extending this now to our, um, uh, 8,000 catalyst product line for the, for the sun products, as well as to the data center products, the next line. Um, and so what you see is, is there a half a thing you have sounds nice, you get a million insights and you get a billion dollar off improvements, uh, for how your applications run. And this is really, um, the, the power of tying together, the footprint of what a network is with the visibility, what is going on. So you actually know the application behavior that is attached to this network. >>I see. So, okay. So as the cloud evolves, it expands, it connects, you're actually enabling thousand eyes to go further, not just confined within a single data center location, but out to the network across clouds, et cetera, >>Correct. Wherever the network is, you're going to have a thousand eyes sensor and you can bring this together and you can quite frankly pick, if you want to say, Hey, I have my application in public cloud provider, a, uh, domain one, and I have another one domain, two, I can do monitor that link. I can also monitor, I have a user that has a campus location or branch location. I kind of put an agent there and then I can monitor the connectivity from that branch location, all the way to the let's say, corporations, that data center or headquarter, or to the cloud. And I can have these probes and just to be, have visibility and saying, Hey, if there's a performance, I know where the issue is. And then I obviously can use all the other sorts that we have to address those. >>All right, let's talk about the cloud operating model. Everybody tells us that, you know, it's, it's really the change in the model that drives big numbers in terms of ROI. And I want you to maybe address how you're bringing automation and dev ops to this world of, of hybrid and specifically, how is Cisco enabling it organizations to move to a cloud operating model as that cloud definition expands? >>Yeah, no, that's, that's another interesting topic beyond the observability. So really, really what we're seeing. And this has gone on for, uh, I want to say couple of years now, it's really this transition from, uh, operating infrastructure as a network and team more like a service, like what you would expect from a cloud provider, right? This is really around the network team, offering services like a cloud provided us. And that's really what the meaning is of cloud operating model, right? Where this is infrastructure running in your own data center, whether that's linking that infrastructure was whatever runs on the public cloud is operating at like a cloud service. And so we are on this journey for a while. So one of the examples, um, that we have removing some of the control software assets that customers today can deploy on prem, uh, to, uh, an instance that they can deploy in a, in a cloud provider and just basically instantiate saying, stay, and then just run it that way. >>Right? And so the latest example for this is what we have our identity service engine that is now unlimited availability available on AWS. And we will become available mid this year. Also data, we, as a visual, as a service, you can just go to marketplace, you can load it there and now increase. You can start running your policy control in a cloud, managing your X's infrastructure in your data center and your, uh, wherever you want to do it. And so that's just one example of how we see, uh, our customers' network operations team taking advantage of a cloud operating model, or basically deploying their, their tools where they need them and when they need them. So >>What's the scope of, I hope I'm saying it right, ice, right. ISC. I think they call it ice. What's the scope of that? Like for instance, 10 an effect my, or even, you know, address simplify my security approach. >>Absolutely. That's now coming to, what is the beauty of the product itself? Yes. Uh, what you can do is really is like, there's a lot of people talking, what I, how do I get to a zero trust approach to networking? How do I get to a much more dynamic, flexible segmentation in my infrastructure, again, whether this is on only campus X, as well as the data center and ice helps you there, you can use this as a point to, to find your policies and then any connect from there, right? In this particular case, we would instead ice in a cloud as a software, uh, load you now can connect and say, Hey, I want to manage and program my network infrastructure and my data center, or my campus going to the respect of controller with it's DNA center for campus, or whether does this, the, uh, ACI policy controller. And so, yes, what'd you get as an effect out of this is a very elegant way to automatically manage in one place. What does my policy, and then drive the right segmentation in your network infrastructure. Okay. >>Zero trust. It was pre pandemic. It was kind of a buzzword. Now it's become a mandate. I, I wonder if we could talk about yet, right. I mean, so I wonder, could talk about cloud native apps. Uh, you got all these developers that are working inside organizations, they're maintaining legacy apps, they're connecting their data to systems in the cloud. They're sharing that data. These developers they're rapidly advancing their skillsets. How is Cisco enabling its infrastructure to support this world of cloud native making infrastructure more responsive and agile for application developers? >>Yeah. So you were going to, the talk we saw was the visibility. We talked about the operating model, how our network operates, actually want to use tools going forward. Now the next step to visits, it's not just the operator. How do they actually, where do they want to put these tools? All they, how they interact with this tools as well as quite frankly, is how let's say a dev ops team on application team or a cloud team also wants to take advantage off the programmability of the underlying network. And this is where we moving into this whole cloud native discussion, right. Which has really two angles to, is the cloud native way, how applications are being built. And then there is the cloud native way, how you interact with infrastructure, right? And so what we have done as we're putting in place, the on-ramps between clouds, uh, and then on top of it, we're exposing for all these tools, API APIs that can be used and leveraged by standard cloud tools or, uh, uh, cloud native tools, right? >>And one example or two examples we always have. And again, we're on this journey for a while is, uh, both Ansible, uh, script capabilities, uh, that access from red hat, as well as, uh, Hashi Terraform capabilities that you can orchestrate across infrastructure to drive infrastructure automation. And what, what really stands behind it is what either the networking operations team wants to do, or even the app team. They want to be able to describe the application as a code and then drive automatically or programmatically in sedation of infrastructure needed for that application. And so what you see us doing is providing all these, uh, capability as an interface for all our network tools, right? Whether this is ice. What I just mentioned, whether this is our, uh, DCN controllers in the data center, uh, whether these are the controllers in the, uh, in the campus for all of those, we have cloud native interfaces. So, uh, operator or a dev ops team can actually interact directly with that infrastructure the way they would do today with everything that lives in the cloud, or was everything, how they built the application, >>You can't even have the conversation of, of op cloud operating model that includes and comprises on-prem without programmable infrastructure. So that's, that's very important. Last question, Thomas are customers actually using this? They made the announcement today. Are there any examples of customers out there doing this? >>We, we do have a lot of customers out there, um, that are moving down a path and using the D D Cisco high-performance infrastructure, also on the compute side, as well as on the next site. Uh, one of the customers, uh, and this is like an interesting case, is the Rakuten, uh, record in is a large type of provider, um, uh, mobile 5g operator, uh, in Japan and expanding and as in different countries. Uh, and so people, something, Oh, cloud, you must be talking about the public cloud provider, the big, the big three or four. Uh, but if you look at it as a lot of the tackles service providers are actually cloud providers as well and expanding very rapidly. And so we're actually very, um, proud to work together was, was Rakuten and in help them building a high performance, uh, data center infrastructure based on how they gig and actually phone a gig, uh, to drive their deployment to it's a 5g mobile cloud infrastructure, which is, which is, um, where the whole, the whole world where traffic is going. And so it's really exciting to see these development and see the power of automation, visibility, uh, together with the high performance infrastructure, becoming reality and delivering actually, uh, services. Yes. >>Some great points you're making there, but yes, you have the big four clouds are enormous, but then you have a lot of actually quite large clouds, telcos that are either proximate to those clouds or they're in places where those hyperscalers may not have a presence and building out their own infrastructure. So, so that's a great case study, uh, Thomas, Hey, great. Having you on. Thanks so much for spending some time with us. >>Yeah. The same here. I appreciate it. Thanks a lot. >>Thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for the cube, the leader in tech event coverage.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban cloud brought to you by silicon angle, everybody to Cuban cloud. My name is Dave Volonte, and I'll be here throughout the day with my co host, John Ferrier, who was quarantined in an undisclosed location in California. He's all good. Don't worry. Just precautionary. John, how are you doing? >>Hey, great to see you. John. Quarantine. My youngest daughter had covitz, so contact tracing. I was negative in quarantine at a friend's location. All good. >>Well, we wish you the best. Yeah, well, right. I mean, you know what's it like, John? I mean, you're away from your family. Your basically shut in, right? I mean, you go out for a walk, but you're really not in any contact with anybody. >>Correct? Yeah. I mean, basically just isolation, Um, pretty much what everyone's been kind of living on, kind of suffering through, but hopefully the vaccines are being distributed. You know, one of the things we talked about it reinvent the Amazon's cloud conference. Was the vaccine on, but just the whole workflow around that it's gonna get better. It's kind of really sucky. Here in the California area, they haven't done a good job, a lot of criticism around, how that's rolling out. And, you know, Amazon is now offering to help now that there's a new regime in the U. S. Government S o. You know, something to talk about, But certainly this has been a terrible time for Cove it and everyone in the deaths involved. But it's it's essentially pulled back the covers, if you will, on technology and you're seeing everything. Society. In fact, um, well, that's big tech MIT disinformation campaigns. All these vulnerabilities and cyber, um, accelerated digital transformation. We'll talk about a lot today, but yeah, it's totally changed the world. And I think we're in a new generation. I think this is a real inflection point, Dave. You know, modern society and the geo political impact of this is significant. You know, one of the benefits of being quarantined you'd be hanging out on these clubhouse APS, uh, late at night, listening to experts talk about what's going on, and it's interesting what's happening with with things like water and, you know, the island of Taiwan and China and U. S. Sovereignty, data, sovereignty, misinformation. So much going on to talk about. And, uh, meanwhile, companies like Mark injuries in BC firm starting a media company. What's going on? Hell freezing over. So >>we're gonna be talking about a lot of that stuff today. I mean, Cuba on cloud. It's our very first virtual editorial event we're trying to do is bring together our community. It's a it's an open forum and we're we're running the day on our 3 65 software platform. So we got a great lineup. We got CEO Seo's data Practitioners. We got a hard core technologies coming in, cloud experts, investors. We got some analysts coming in and we're creating this day long Siri's. And we've got a number of sessions that we've developed and we're gonna unpack. The future of Cloud computing in the coming decade is, John said, we're gonna talk about some of the public policy new administration. What does that mean for tech and for big tech in General? John, what can you add to that? >>Well, I think one of the things that we talked about Cove in this personal impact to me but other people as well. One of the things that people are craving right now is information factual information, truth texture that we call it. But hear this event for us, Davis, our first inaugural editorial event. Robbo, Kristen, Nicole, the entire Cube team Silicon angle, really trying to put together Morva cadence we're gonna doom or of these events where we can put out feature the best people in our community that have great fresh voices. You know, we do interview the big names Andy Jassy, Michael Dell, the billionaires with people making things happen. But it's often the people under there that are the rial newsmakers amid savory, for instance, that Google one of the most impressive technical people, he's gotta talk. He's gonna present democratization of software development in many Mawr riel people making things happen. And I think there's a communal element. We're going to do more of these. Obviously, we have, uh, no events to go to with the Cube. So we have the cube virtual software that we have been building and over years and now perfecting and we're gonna introduce that we're gonna put it to work, their dog footing it. We're gonna put that software toe work. We're gonna do a lot mawr virtual events like this Cuban cloud Cuban startup Cuban raising money. Cuban healthcare, Cuban venture capital. Always think we could do anything. Question is, what's the right story? What's the most important stories? Who's telling it and increase the aperture of the lens of the industry that we have and and expose that and fastest possible. That's what this software, you'll see more of it. So it's super exciting. We're gonna add new features like pulling people up on stage, Um, kind of bring on the clubhouse vibe and more of a community interaction with people to meet each other, and we'll roll those out. But the goal here is to just showcase it's cloud story in a way from people that are living it and providing value. So enjoy the day is gonna be chock full of presentations. We're gonna have moderated chat in these sessions, so it's an all day event so people can come in, drop out, and also that's everything's on demand immediately after the time slot. But you >>want to >>participate, come into the time slot into the cube room or breakout session. Whatever you wanna call it, it's a cube room, and the people in there chatting and having a watch party. So >>when you're in that home page when you're watching, there's a hero video there. Beneath that, there's a calendar, and you'll see that red line is that red horizontal line of vertical line is rather, it's a linear clock that will show you where we are in the day. If you click on any one of those sessions that will take you into the chat, we'll take you through those in a moment and share with you some of the guests that we have upcoming and and take you through the day what I wanted to do. John is trying to set the stage for the conversations that folks are gonna here today. And to do that, I wanna ask the guys to bring up a graphic. And I want to talk to you, John, about the progression of cloud over time and maybe go back to the beginning and review the evolution of cloud and then really talk a little bit about where we think it Z headed. So, guys, if you bring up that graphic when a W S announced s three, it was March of 2000 and six. And as you recall, John you know, nobody really. In the vendor and user community. They didn't really pay too much attention to that. And then later that year, in August, it announced E C two people really started. They started to think about a new model of computing, but they were largely, you know, chicken tires. And it was kind of bleeding edge developers that really leaned in. Um what? What were you thinking at the time? When when you saw, uh, s three e c to this retail company coming into the tech world? >>I mean, I thought it was totally crap. I'm like, this is terrible. But then at that time, I was thinking working on I was in between kind of start ups and I didn't have a lot of seed funding. And then I realized the C two was freaking awesome. But I'm like, Holy shit, this is really great because I don't need to pay a lot of cash, the Provisional Data center, or get a server. Or, you know, at that time, state of the art startup move was to buy a super micro box or some sort of power server. Um, it was well past the whole proprietary thing. But you have to assemble probably anyone with 5 to 8 grand box and go in, and we'll put a couple ghetto rack, which is basically, uh, you know, you put it into some coasting location. It's like with everybody else in the tech ghetto of hosting, still paying monthly fees and then maintaining it and provisioning that's just to get started. And then Amazon was just really easy. And then from there you just It was just awesome. I just knew Amazon would be great. They had a lot of things that they had to fix. You know, custom domains and user interface Council got better and better, but it was awesome. >>Well, what we really saw the cloud take hold from my perspective anyway, was the financial crisis in, you know, 709 It put cloud on the radar of a number of CFOs and, of course, shadow I T departments. They wanted to get stuff done and and take I t in in in, ah, pecs, bite sized chunks. So it really was. There's cloud awakening and we came out of that financial crisis, and this we're now in this 10 year plus boom um, you know, notwithstanding obviously the economic crisis with cove it. But much of it was powered by the cloud in the decade. I would say it was really about I t transformation. And it kind of ironic, if you will, because the pandemic it hits at the beginning of this decade, >>and it >>creates this mandate to go digital. So you've you've said a lot. John has pulled forward. It's accelerated this industry transformation. Everybody talks about that, but and we've highlighted it here in this graphic. It probably would have taken several more years to mature. But overnight you had this forced march to digital. And if you weren't a digital business, you were kind of out of business. And and so it's sort of here to stay. How do you see >>You >>know what this evolution and what we can expect in the coming decades? E think it's safe to say the last 10 years defined by you know, I t transformation. That's not gonna be the same in the coming years. How do you see it? >>It's interesting. I think the big tech companies are on, but I think this past election, the United States shows um, the power that technology has. And if you look at some of the main trends in the enterprise specifically around what clouds accelerating, I call the second wave of innovations coming where, um, it's different. It's not what people expect. Its edge edge computing, for instance, has talked about a lot. But industrial i o t. Is really where we've had a lot of problems lately in terms of hacks and malware and just just overall vulnerabilities, whether it's supply chain vulnerabilities, toe actual disinformation, you know, you know, vulnerabilities inside these networks s I think this network effects, it's gonna be a huge thing. I think the impact that tech will have on society and global society geopolitical things gonna be also another one. Um, I think the modern application development of how applications were written with data, you know, we always been saying this day from the beginning of the Cube data is his integral part of the development process. And I think more than ever, when you think about cloud and edge and this distributed computing paradigm, that cloud is now going next level with is the software and how it's written will be different. You gotta handle things like, where's the compute component? Is it gonna be at the edge with all the server chips, innovations that Amazon apple intel of doing, you're gonna have compute right at the edge, industrial and kind of human edge. How does that work? What's Leighton see to that? It's it really is an edge game. So to me, software has to be written holistically in a system's impact on the way. Now that's not necessarily nude in the computer science and in the tech field, it's just gonna be deployed differently. So that's a complete rewrite, in my opinion of the software applications. Which is why you're seeing Amazon Google VM Ware really pushing Cooper Netease and these service messes in the micro Services because super critical of this technology become smarter, automated, autonomous. And that's completely different paradigm in the old full stack developer, you know, kind of model. You know, the full stack developer, his ancient. There's no such thing as a full stack developer anymore, in my opinion, because it's a half a stack because the cloud takes up the other half. But no one wants to be called the half stack developer because it doesn't sound as good as Full Stack, but really Cloud has eliminated the technology complexity of what a full stack developer used to dio. Now you can manage it and do things with it, so you know, there's some work to done, but the heavy lifting but taking care of it's the top of the stack that I think is gonna be a really critical component. >>Yeah, and that that sort of automation and machine intelligence layer is really at the top of the stack. This this thing becomes ubiquitous, and we now start to build businesses and new processes on top of it. I wanna I wanna take a look at the Big Three and guys, Can we bring up the other The next graphic, which is an estimate of what the revenue looks like for the for the Big three. And John, this is I asked and past spend for the Big Three Cloud players. And it's It's an estimate that we're gonna update after earning seasons, and I wanna point a couple things out here. First is if you look at the combined revenue production of the Big Three last year, it's almost 80 billion in infrastructure spend. I mean, think about that. That Z was that incremental spend? No. It really has caused a lot of consolidation in the on Prem data center business for guys like Dell. And, you know, um, see, now, part of the LHP split up IBM Oracle. I mean, it's etcetera. They've all felt this sea change, and they had to respond to it. I think the second thing is you can see on this data. Um, it's true that azure and G C P they seem to be growing faster than a W s. We don't know the exact numbers >>because >>A W S is the only company that really provides a clean view of i s and pass. Whereas Microsoft and Google, they kind of hide the ball in their numbers. I mean, I don't blame them because they're behind, but they do leave breadcrumbs and clues about growth rates and so forth. And so we have other means of estimating, but it's it's undeniable that azure is catching up. I mean, it's still quite distance the third thing, and before I want to get your input here, John is this is nuanced. But despite the fact that Azure and Google the growing faster than a W s. You can see those growth rates. A W s I'll call this out is the only company by our estimates that grew its business sequentially last quarter. Now, in and of itself, that's not significant. But what is significant is because AWS is so large there $45 billion last year, even if the slower growth rates it's able to grow mawr and absolute terms than its competitors, who are basically flat to down sequentially by our estimates. Eso So that's something that I think is important to point out. Everybody focuses on the growth rates, but it's you gotta look at also the absolute dollars and, well, nonetheless, Microsoft in particular, they're they're closing the gap steadily, and and we should talk more about the competitive dynamics. But I'd love to get your take on on all this, John. >>Well, I mean, the clouds are gonna win right now. Big time with the one the political climate is gonna be favoring Big check. But more importantly, with just talking about covert impact and celebrating the digital transformation is gonna create a massive rising tide. It's already happening. It's happening it's happening. And again, this shift in programming, uh, models are gonna really kinda accelerating, create new great growth. So there's no doubt in my mind of all three you're gonna win big, uh, in the future, they're just different, You know, the way they're going to market position themselves, they have to be. Google has to be a little bit different than Amazon because they're smaller and they also have different capabilities, then trying to catch up. So if you're Google or Microsoft, you have to have a competitive strategy to decide. How do I wanna ride the tide If you will put the rising tide? Well, if I'm Amazon, I mean, if I'm Microsoft and Google, I'm not going to try to go frontal and try to copy Amazon because Amazon is just pounding lead of features and scale and they're different. They were, I would say, take advantage of the first mover of pure public cloud. They really awesome. It passed and I, as they've integrated in Gardner, now reports and integrated I as and passed components. So Gardner finally got their act together and said, Hey, this is really one thing. SAS is completely different animal now Microsoft Super Smart because they I think they played the right card. They have a huge installed base converted to keep office 3 65 and move sequel server and all their core jewels into the cloud as fast as possible, clarified while filling in the gaps on the product side to be cloud. So you know, as you're doing trends job, they're just it's just pedal as fast as you can. But Microsoft is really in. The strategy is just go faster trying. Keep pedaling fast, get the features, feature velocity and try to make it high quality. Google is a little bit different. They have a little power base in terms of their network of strong, and they have a lot of other big data capabilities, so they have to use those to their advantage. So there is. There is there is competitive strategy game application happening with these companies. It's not like apples, the apples, In my opinion, it never has been, and I think that's funny that people talk about it that way. >>Well, you're bringing up some great points. I want guys bring up the next graphic because a lot of things that John just said are really relevant here. And what we're showing is that's a survey. Data from E. T. R R Data partners, like 1400 plus CEOs and I T buyers and on the vertical axis is this thing called Net score, which is a measure of spending momentum. And the horizontal axis is is what's called market share. It's a measure of the pervasiveness or, you know, number of mentions in the data set. There's a couple of key points I wanna I wanna pick up on relative to what John just said. So you see A W S and Microsoft? They stand alone. I mean, they're the hyper scale er's. They're far ahead of the pack and frankly, they have fall down, toe, lose their lead. They spend a lot on Capex. They got the flywheel effects going. They got both spending velocity and large market shares, and so, but they're taking a different approach. John, you're right there living off of their SAS, the state, their software state, Andi, they're they're building that in to their cloud. So they got their sort of a captive base of Microsoft customers. So they've got that advantage. They also as we'll hear from from Microsoft today. They they're building mawr abstraction layers. Andy Jassy has said We don't wanna be in that abstraction layer business. We wanna have access to those, you know, fine grain primitives and eso at an AP level. So so we can move fast with the market. But but But so those air sort of different philosophies, John? >>Yeah. I mean, you know, people who know me know that I love Amazon. I think their product is superior at many levels on in its way that that has advantages again. They have a great sass and ecosystem. They don't really have their own SAS play, although they're trying to add some stuff on. I've been kind of critical of Microsoft in the past, but one thing I'm not critical of Microsoft, and people can get this wrong in the marketplace. Actually, in the journalism world and also in just some other analysts, Microsoft has always had large scale eso to say that Microsoft never had scale on that Amazon owned the monopoly on our franchise on scales wrong. Microsoft had scale from day one. Their business was always large scale global. They've always had infrastructure with MSN and their search and the distributive how they distribute browsers and multiple countries. Remember they had the lock on the operating system and the browser for until the government stepped in in 1997. And since 1997 Microsoft never ever not invested in infrastructure and scale. So that whole premise that they don't compete well there is wrong. And I think that chart demonstrates that there, in there in the hyper scale leadership category, hands down the question that I have. Is that there not as good and making that scale integrate in because they have that legacy cards. This is the classic innovator's dilemma. Clay Christensen, right? So I think they're doing a good job. I think their strategy sound. They're moving as fast as they can. But then you know they're not gonna come out and say We don't have the best cloud. Um, that's not a marketing strategy. Have to kind of hide in this and get better and then double down on where they're winning, which is. Clients are converting from their legacy at the speed of Microsoft, and they have a huge client base, So that's why they're stopping so high That's why they're so good. >>Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna give you a little preview. I talked to gear up your f Who's gonna come on today and you'll see I I asked him because the criticism of Microsoft is they're, you know, they're just good enough. And so I asked him, Are you better than good enough? You know, those are fighting words if you're inside of Microsoft, but so you'll you'll have to wait to see his answer. Now, if you guys, if you could bring that that graphic back up I wanted to get into the hybrid zone. You know where the field is. Always got >>some questions coming in on chat, Dave. So we'll get to those >>great Awesome. So just just real quick Here you see this hybrid zone, this the field is bunched up, and the other companies who have a large on Prem presence and have been forced to initiate some kind of coherent cloud strategy included. There is Michael Michael, multi Cloud, and Google's there, too, because they're far behind and they got to take a different approach than a W s. But as you can see, so there's some real progress here. VM ware cloud on AWS stands out, as does red hat open shift. You got VM Ware Cloud, which is a VCF Cloud Foundation, even Dell's cloud. And you'd expect HP with Green Lake to be picking up momentum in the future quarters. And you've got IBM and Oracle, which there you go with the innovator's dilemma. But there, at least in the cloud game, and we can talk about that. But so, John, you know, to your point, you've gotta have different strategies. You're you're not going to take out the big too. So you gotta play, connect your print your on Prem to your cloud, your hybrid multi cloud and try to create new opportunities and new value there. >>Yeah, I mean, I think we'll get to the question, but just that point. I think this Zeri Chen's come on the Cube many times. We're trying to get him to come on lunch today with Features startup, but he's always said on the Q B is a V C at Greylock great firm. Jerry's Cloud genius. He's been there, but he made a point many, many years ago. It's not a winner. Take all the winner. Take most, and the Big Three maybe put four or five in there. We'll take most of the markets here. But I think one of the things that people are missing and aren't talking about Dave is that there's going to be a second tier cloud, large scale model. I don't want to say tear to cloud. It's coming to sound like a sub sub cloud, but a new category of cloud on cloud, right? So meaning if you get a snowflake, did I think this is a tale? Sign to what's coming. VM Ware Cloud is a native has had huge success, mainly because Amazon is essentially enabling them to be successful. So I think is going to be a wave of a more of a channel model of indirect cloud build out where companies like the Cube, potentially for media or others, will build clouds on top of the cloud. So if Google, Microsoft and Amazon, whoever is the first one to really enable that okay, we'll do extremely well because that means you can compete with their scale and create differentiation on top. So what snowflake did is all on Amazon now. They kind of should go to azure because it's, you know, politically correct that have multiple clouds and distribution and business model shifts. But to get that kind of performance they just wrote on Amazon. So there's nothing wrong with that. Because you're getting paid is variable. It's cap ex op X nice categorization. So I think that's the way that we're watching. I think it's super valuable, I think will create some surprises in terms of who might come out of the woodwork on be a leader in a category. Well, >>your timing is perfect, John and we do have some questions in the chat. But before we get to that, I want to bring in Sargi Joe Hall, who's a contributor to to our community. Sargi. Can you hear us? All right, so we got, uh, while >>bringing in Sarpy. Let's go down from the questions. So the first question, Um, we'll still we'll get the student second. The first question. But Ronald ask, Can a vendor in 2021 exist without a hybrid cloud story? Well, story and capabilities. Yes, they could live with. They have to have a story. >>Well, And if they don't own a public cloud? No. No, they absolutely cannot. Uh hey, Sergey. How you doing, man? Good to see you. So, folks, let me let me bring in Sergeant Kohala. He's a He's a cloud architect. He's a practitioner, He's worked in as a technologist. And there's a frequent guest on on the Cube. Good to see you, my friend. Thanks for taking the time with us. >>And good to see you guys to >>us. So we were kind of riffing on the competitive landscape we got. We got so much to talk about this, like, it's a number of questions coming in. Um, but Sargi we wanna talk about you know, what's happening here in Cloud Land? Let's get right into it. I mean, what do you guys see? I mean, we got yesterday. New regime, new inaug inauguration. Do you do you expect public policy? You'll start with you Sargi to have What kind of effect do you think public policy will have on, you know, cloud generally specifically, the big tech companies, the tech lash. Is it gonna be more of the same? Or do you see a big difference coming? >>I think that there will be some changing narrative. I believe on that. is mainly, um, from the regulators side. A lot has happened in one month, right? So people, I think are losing faith in high tech in a certain way. I mean, it doesn't, uh, e think it matters with camp. You belong to left or right kind of thing. Right? But parlor getting booted out from Italy s. I think that was huge. Um, like, how do you know that if a cloud provider will not boot you out? Um, like, what is that line where you draw the line? What are the rules? I think that discussion has to take place. Another thing which has happened in the last 23 months is is the solar winds hack, right? So not us not sort acknowledging that I was Russia and then wish you watching it now, new administration might have a different sort of Boston on that. I think that's huge. I think public public private partnership in security arena will emerge this year. We have to address that. Yeah, I think it's not changing. Uh, >>economics economy >>will change gradually. You know, we're coming out off pandemic. The money is still cheap on debt will not be cheap. for long. I think m and a activity really will pick up. So those are my sort of high level, Uh, >>thank you. I wanna come back to them. And because there's a question that chat about him in a But, John, how do you see it? Do you think Amazon and Google on a slippery slope booting parlor off? I mean, how do they adjudicate between? Well, what's happening in parlor? Uh, anything could happen on clubhouse. Who knows? I mean, can you use a I to find that stuff? >>Well, that's I mean, the Amazons, right? Hiding right there bunkered in right now from that bad, bad situation. Because again, like people we said Amazon, these all three cloud players win in the current environment. Okay, Who wins with the U. S. With the way we are China, Russia, cloud players. Okay, let's face it, that's the reality. So if I wanted to reset the world stage, you know what better way than the, you know, change over the United States economy, put people out of work, make people scared, and then reset the entire global landscape and control all with cash? That's, you know, conspiracy theory. >>So you see the riches, you see the riches, get the rich, get richer. >>Yeah, well, that's well, that's that. That's kind of what's happening, right? So if you start getting into this idea that you can't actually have an app on site because the reason now I'm not gonna I don't know the particular parlor, but apparently there was a reason. But this is dangerous, right? So what? What that's gonna do is and whether it's right or wrong or not, whether political opinion is it means that they were essentially taken offline by people that weren't voted for that. Weren't that when people didn't vote for So that's not a democracy, right? So that's that's a different kind of regime. What it's also going to do is you also have this groundswell of decentralized thinking, right. So you have a whole wave of crypto and decentralized, um, cyber punks out there who want to decentralize it. So all of this stuff in January has created a huge counterculture, and I had predicted this so many times in the Cube. David counterculture is coming and and you already have this kind of counterculture between centralized and decentralized thinking and so I think the Amazon's move is dangerous at a fundamental level. Because if you can't get it, if you can't get buy domain names and you're completely blackballed by by organized players, that's a Mafia, in my opinion. So, uh, and that and it's also fuels the decentralized move because people say, Hey, if that could be done to them, it could be done to me. Just the fact that it could be done will promote a swing in the other direction. I >>mean, independent of of, you know, again, somebody said your political views. I mean Parlor would say, Hey, we're trying to clean this stuff up now. Maybe they didn't do it fast enough, but you think about how new parlor is. You think about the early days of Twitter and Facebook, so they were sort of at a disadvantage. Trying to >>have it was it was partly was what it was. It was a right wing stand up job of standing up something quick. Their security was terrible. If you look at me and Cory Quinn on be great to have him, and he did a great analysis on this, because if you look the lawsuit was just terrible. Security was just a half, asshole. >>Well, and the experience was horrible. I mean, it's not It was not a great app, but But, like you said, it was a quick stew. Hand up, you know, for an agenda. But nonetheless, you know, to start, get to your point earlier. It's like, you know, Are they gonna, you know, shut me down? If I say something that's, you know, out of line, or how do I control that? >>Yeah, I remember, like, 2019, we involved closing sort of remarks. I was there. I was saying that these companies are gonna be too big to fail. And also, they're too big for other nations to do business with. In a way, I think MNCs are running the show worldwide. They're running the government's. They are way. Have seen the proof of that in us this year. Late last year and this year, um, Twitter last night blocked Chinese Ambassador E in us. Um, from there, you know, platform last night and I was like, What? What's going on? So, like, we used to we used to say, like the Chinese company, tech companies are in bed with the Chinese government. Right. Remember that? And now and now, Actually, I think Chinese people can say the same thing about us companies. Uh, it's not a good thing. >>Well, let's >>get some question. >>Let's get some questions from the chat. Yeah. Thank you. One is on M and a subject you mentioned them in a Who do you see is possible emanate targets. I mean, I could throw a couple out there. Um, you know, some of the cdn players, maybe aka my You know, I like I like Hashi Corp. I think they're doing some really interesting things. What do you see? >>Nothing. Hashi Corp. And anybody who's doing things in the periphery is a candidate for many by the big guys, you know, by the hyper scholars and number two tier two or five hyper scholars. Right. Uh, that's why sales forces of the world and stuff like that. Um, some some companies, which I thought there will be a target, Sort of. I mean, they target they're getting too big, because off their evaluations, I think how she Corpuz one, um, >>and >>their bunch in the networking space. Uh, well, Tara, if I say the right that was acquired by at five this week, this week or last week, Actually, last week for $500 million. Um, I know they're founder. So, like I found that, Yeah, there's a lot going on on the on the network side on the anything to do with data. Uh, that those air too hard areas in the cloud arena >>data, data protection, John, any any anything you could adhere. >>And I think I mean, I think ej ej is gonna be where the gaps are. And I think m and a activity is gonna be where again, the bigger too big to fail would agree with you on that one. But we're gonna look at white Spaces and say a white space for Amazon is like a monster space for a start up. Right? So you're gonna have these huge white spaces opportunities, and I think it's gonna be an M and a opportunity big time start ups to get bought in. Given the speed on, I think you're gonna see it around databases and around some of these new service meshes and micro services. I mean, >>they there's a There's a question here, somebody's that dons asking why is Google who has the most pervasive tech infrastructure on the planet. Not at the same level of other to hyper scale is I'll give you my two cents is because it took him a long time to get their heads out of their ads. I wrote a piece of around that a while ago on they just they figured out how to learn the enterprise. I mean, John, you've made this point a number of times, but they just and I got a late start. >>Yeah, they're adding a lot of people. If you look at their who their hiring on the Google Cloud, they're adding a lot of enterprise chops in there. They realized this years ago, and we've talked to many of the top leaders, although Curry and hasn't yet sit down with us. Um, don't know what he's hiding or waiting for, but they're clearly not geared up to chicken Pete. You can see it with some some of the things that they're doing, but I mean competed the level of Amazon, but they have strength and they're playing their strength, but they definitely recognize that they didn't have the enterprise motions and people in the DNA and that David takes time people in the enterprise. It's not for the faint of heart. It's unique details that are different. You can't just, you know, swing the Google playbook and saying We're gonna home The enterprises are text grade. They knew that years ago. So I think you're going to see a good year for Google. I think you'll see a lot of change. Um, they got great people in there. On the product marketing side is Dev Solution Architects, and then the SRE model that they have perfected has been strong. And I think security is an area that they could really had a lot of value it. So, um always been a big fan of their huge network and all the intelligence they have that they could bring to bear on security. >>Yeah, I think Google's problem main problem that to actually there many, but one is that they don't They don't have the boots on the ground as compared to um, Microsoft, especially an Amazon actually had a similar problem, but they had a wide breath off their product portfolio. I always talk about feature proximity in cloud context, like if you're doing one thing. You wanna do another thing? And how do you go get that feature? Do you go to another cloud writer or it's right there where you are. So I think Amazon has the feature proximity and they also have, uh, aske Compared to Google, there's skills gravity. Larger people are trained on AWS. I think Google is trying there. So second problem Google is having is that that they're they're more focused on, I believe, um, on the data science part on their sort of skipping the cool components sort of off the cloud, if you will. The where the workloads needs, you know, basic stuff, right? That's like your compute storage and network. And that has to be well, talk through e think e think they will do good. >>Well, so later today, Paul Dillon sits down with Mids Avery of Google used to be in Oracle. He's with Google now, and he's gonna push him on on the numbers. You know, you're a distant third. Does that matter? And of course, you know, you're just a preview of it's gonna say, Well, no, we don't really pay attention to that stuff. But, John, you said something earlier that. I think Jerry Chen made this comment that, you know, Is it a winner? Take all? No, but it's a winner. Take a lot. You know the number two is going to get a big chunk of the pie. It appears that the markets big enough for three. But do you? Does Google have to really dramatically close the gap on be a much, much closer, you know, to the to the leaders in orderto to compete in this race? Or can they just kind of continue to bump along, siphon off the ad revenue? Put it out there? I mean, I >>definitely can compete. I think that's like Google's in it. Then it they're not. They're not caving, right? >>So But But I wrote I wrote recently that I thought they should even even put mawr oven emphasis on the cloud. I mean, maybe maybe they're already, you know, doubling down triple down. I just I think that is a multi trillion dollar, you know, future for the industry. And, you know, I think Google, believe it or not, could even do more. Now. Maybe there's just so much you could dio. >>There's a lot of challenges with these company, especially Google. They're in Silicon Valley. We have a big Social Justice warrior mentality. Um, there's a big debate going on the in the back channels of the tech scene here, and that is that if you want to be successful in cloud, you have to have a good edge strategy, and that involves surveillance, use of data and pushing the privacy limits. Right? So you know, Google has people within the country that will protest contract because AI is being used for war. Yet we have the most unstable geopolitical seen that I've ever witnessed in my lifetime going on right now. So, um, don't >>you think that's what happened with parlor? I mean, Rob Hope said, Hey, bar is pretty high to kick somebody off your platform. The parlor went over the line, but I would also think that a lot of the employees, whether it's Google AWS as well, said, Hey, why are we supporting you know this and so to your point about social justice, I mean, that's not something. That >>parlor was not just social justice. They were trying to throw the government. That's Rob e. I think they were in there to get selfies and being protesters. But apparently there was evidence from what I heard in some of these clubhouse, uh, private chats. Waas. There was overwhelming evidence on parlor. >>Yeah, but my point is that the employee backlash was also a factor. That's that's all I'm saying. >>Well, we have Google is your Google and you have employees to say we will boycott and walk out if you bid on that jet I contract for instance, right, But Microsoft one from maybe >>so. I mean, that's well, >>I think I think Tom Poole's making a really good point here, which is a Google is an alternative. Thio aws. The last Google cloud next that we were asked at they had is all virtual issue. But I saw a lot of I T practitioners in the audience looking around for an alternative to a W s just seeing, though, we could talk about Mano Cloud or Multi Cloud, and Andy Jassy has his his narrative around, and he's true when somebody goes multiple clouds, they put you know most of their eggs in one basket. Nonetheless, I think you know, Google's got a lot of people interested in, particularly in the analytic side, um, in in an alternative, hedging their bets eso and particularly use cases, so they should be able to do so. I guess my the bottom line here is the markets big enough to have Really? You don't have to be the Jack Welch. I gotta be number one and number two in the market. Is that the conclusion here? >>I think so. But the data gravity and the skills gravity are playing against them. Another problem, which I didn't want a couple of earlier was Google Eyes is that they have to boot out AWS wherever they go. Right? That is a huge challenge. Um, most off the most off the Fortune 2000 companies are already using AWS in one way or another. Right? So they are the multi cloud kind of player. Another one, you know, and just pure purely somebody going 200% Google Cloud. Uh, those cases are kind of pure, if you will. >>I think it's gonna be absolutely multi cloud. I think it's gonna be a time where you looked at the marketplace and you're gonna think in terms of disaster recovery, model of cloud or just fault tolerant capabilities or, you know, look at the parlor, the next parlor. Or what if Amazon wakes up one day and said, Hey, I don't like the cubes commentary on their virtual events, so shut them down. We should have a fail over to Google Cloud should Microsoft and Option. And one of people in Microsoft ecosystem wants to buy services from us. We have toe kind of co locate there. So these are all open questions that are gonna be the that will become certain pretty quickly, which is, you know, can a company diversify their computing An i t. In a way that works. And I think the momentum around Cooper Netease you're seeing as a great connective tissue between, you know, having applications work between clouds. Right? Well, directionally correct, in my opinion, because if I'm a company, why wouldn't I wanna have choice? So >>let's talk about this. The data is mixed on that. I'll share some data, meaty our data with you. About half the companies will say Yeah, we're spreading the wealth around to multiple clouds. Okay, That's one thing will come back to that. About the other half were saying, Yeah, we're predominantly mono cloud we didn't have. The resource is. But what I think going forward is that that what multi cloud really becomes. And I think John, you mentioned Snowflake before. I think that's an indicator of what what true multi cloud is going to look like. And what Snowflake is doing is they're building abstraction, layer across clouds. Ed Walsh would say, I'm standing on the shoulders of Giants, so they're basically following points of presence around the globe and building their own cloud. They call it a data cloud with a global mesh. We'll hear more about that later today, but you sign on to that cloud. So they're saying, Hey, we're gonna build value because so many of Amazon's not gonna build that abstraction layer across multi clouds, at least not in the near term. So that's a really opportunity for >>people. I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm dating myself, but you know the date ourselves, David. I remember back in the eighties, when you had open systems movement, right? The part of the whole Revolution OS I open systems interconnect model. At that time, the networking stacks for S N A. For IBM, decadent for deck we all know that was a proprietary stack and then incomes TCP I p Now os I never really happened on all seven layers, but the bottom layers standardized. Okay, that was huge. So I think if you look at a W s or some of the comments in the chat AWS is could be the s n a. Depends how you're looking at it, right? And you could say they're open. But in a way, they want more Amazon. So Amazon's not out there saying we love multi cloud. Why would they promote multi cloud? They are a one of the clouds they want. >>That's interesting, John. And then subject is a cloud architect. I mean, it's it is not trivial to make You're a data cloud. If you're snowflake, work on AWS work on Google. Work on Azure. Be seamless. I mean, certainly the marketing says that, but technically, that's not trivial. You know, there are latent see issues. Uh, you know, So that's gonna take a while to develop. What? Do your thoughts there? >>I think that multi cloud for for same workload and multi cloud for different workloads are two different things. Like we usually put multiple er in one bucket, right? So I think you're right. If you're trying to do multi cloud for the same workload, that's it. That's Ah, complex, uh, problem to solve architecturally, right. You have to have a common ap ice and common, you know, control playing, if you will. And we don't have that yet, and then we will not have that for a for at least one other couple of years. So, uh, if you if you want to do that, then you have to go to the lower, lowest common denominator in technical sort of stock, if you will. And then you're not leveraging the best of the breed technology off their from different vendors, right? I believe that's a hard problem to solve. And in another thing, is that that that I always say this? I'm always on the death side, you know, developer side, I think, uh, two deaths. Public cloud is a proxy for innovative culture. Right. So there's a catch phrase I have come up with today during shower eso. I think that is true. And then people who are companies who use the best of the breed technologies, they can attract the these developers and developers are the Mazen's off This digital sort of empires, amazingly, is happening there. Right there they are the Mazen's right. They head on the bricks. I think if you don't appeal to developers, if you don't but extensive for, like, force behind educating the market, you can't you can't >>put off. It's the same game Stepping story was seeing some check comments. Uh, guard. She's, uh, linked in friend of mine. She said, Microsoft, If you go back and look at the Microsoft early days to the developer Point they were, they made their phones with developers. They were a software company s Oh, hey, >>forget developers, developers, developers. >>You were if you were in the developer ecosystem, you were treated his gold. You were part of the family. If you were outside that world, you were competitors, and that was ruthless times back then. But they again they had. That was where it was today. Look at where the software defined businesses and starve it, saying it's all about being developer lead in this new way to program, right? So the cloud next Gen Cloud is going to look a lot like next Gen Developer and all the different tools and techniques they're gonna change. So I think, yes, this kind of developer ecosystem will be harnessed, and that's the power source. It's just gonna look different. So, >>Justin, Justin in the chat has a comment. I just want to answer the question about elastic thoughts on elastic. Um, I tell you, elastic has momentum uh, doing doing very well in the market place. Thea Elk Stack is a great alternative that people are looking thio relative to Splunk. Who people complain about the pricing. Of course it's plunks got the easy button, but it is getting increasingly expensive. The problem with elk stack is you know, it's open source. It gets complicated. You got a shard, the databases you gotta manage. It s Oh, that's what Ed Walsh's company chaos searches is all about. But elastic has some riel mo mentum in the marketplace right now. >>Yeah, you know, other things that coming on the chat understands what I was saying about the open systems is kubernetes. I always felt was that is a bad metaphor. But they're with me. That was the TCP I peep In this modern era, C t c p I p created that that the disruptor to the S N A s and the network protocols that were proprietary. So what KUBERNETES is doing is creating a connective tissue between clouds and letting the open source community fill in the gaps in the middle, where kind of way kind of probably a bad analogy. But that's where the disruption is. And if you look at what's happened since Kubernetes was put out there, what it's become kind of de facto and standard in the sense that everyone's rallying around it. Same exact thing happened with TCP was people were trashing it. It is terrible, you know it's not. Of course they were trashed because it was open. So I find that to be very interesting. >>Yeah, that's a good >>analogy. E. Thinks the R C a cable. I used the R C. A cable analogy like the VCRs. When they started, they, every VC had had their own cable, and they will work on Lee with that sort of plan of TV and the R C. A cable came and then now you can put any TV with any VCR, and the VCR industry took off. There's so many examples out there around, uh, standards And how standards can, you know, flair that fire, if you will, on dio for an industry to go sort of wild. And another trend guys I'm seeing is that from the consumer side. And let's talk a little bit on the consuming side. Um, is that the The difference wouldn't be to B and B to C is blood blurred because even the physical products are connected to the end user Like my door lock, the August door lock I didn't just put got get the door lock and forget about that. Like I I value the expedience it gives me or problems that gives me on daily basis. So I'm close to that vendor, right? So So the middle men, uh, middle people are getting removed from from the producer off the technology or the product to the consumer. Even even the sort of big grocery players they have their APs now, uh, how do you buy stuff and how it's delivered and all that stuff that experience matters in that context, I think, um, having, uh, to be able to sell to thes enterprises from the Cloud writer Breuder's. They have to have these case studies or all these sample sort off reference architectures and stuff like that. I think whoever has that mawr pushed that way, they are doing better like that. Amazon is Amazon. Because of that reason, I think they have lot off sort off use cases about on top of them. And they themselves do retail like crazy. Right? So and other things at all s. So I think that's a big trend. >>Great. Great points are being one of things. There's a question in there about from, uh, Yaden. Who says, uh, I like the developer Lead cloud movement, But what is the criticality of the executive audience when educating the marketplace? Um, this comes up a lot in some of my conversations around automation. So automation has been a big wave to automate this automate everything. And then everything is a service has become kind of kind of the the executive suite. Kind of like conversation we need to make everything is a service in our business. You seeing people move to that cloud model. Okay, so the executives think everything is a services business strategy, which it is on some level, but then, when they say Take that hill, do it. Developers. It's not that easy. And this is where a lot of our cube conversations over the past few months have been, especially during the cova with cute virtual. This has come up a lot, Dave this idea, and start being around. It's easy to say everything is a service but will implement it. It's really hard, and I think that's where the developer lead Connection is where the executive have to understand that in order to just say it and do it are two different things. That digital transformation. That's a big part of it. So I think that you're gonna see a lot of education this year around what it means to actually do that and how to implement it. >>I'd like to comment on the as a service and subject. Get your take on it. I mean, I think you're seeing, for instance, with HP Green Lake, Dell's come out with Apex. You know IBM as its utility model. These companies were basically taking a page out of what I what I would call a flawed SAS model. If you look at the SAS players, whether it's salesforce or workday, service now s a P oracle. These models are They're really They're not cloud pricing models. They're they're basically you got to commit to a term one year, two year, three year. We'll give you a discount if you commit to the longer term. But you're locked in on you. You probably pay upfront. Or maybe you pay quarterly. That's not a cloud pricing model. And that's why I mean, they're flawed. You're seeing companies like Data Dog, for example. Snowflake is another one, and they're beginning to price on a consumption basis. And that is, I think, one of the big changes that we're going to see this decade is that true cloud? You know, pay by the drink pricing model and to your point, john toe, actually implement. That is, you're gonna need a whole new layer across your company on it is quite complicated it not even to mention how you compensate salespeople, etcetera. The a p. I s of your product. I mean, it is that, but that is a big sea change that I see coming. Subject your >>thoughts. Yeah, I think like you couldn't see it. And like some things for this big tech exacts are hidden in the plain >>sight, right? >>They don't see it. They they have blind spots, like Look at that. Look at Amazon. They went from Melissa and 200 millisecond building on several s, Right, Right. And then here you are, like you're saying, pay us for the whole year. If you don't use the cloud, you lose it or will pay by month. Poor user and all that stuff like that that those a role models, I think these players will be forced to use that term pricing like poor minute or for a second, poor user. That way, I think the Salesforce moral is hybrid. They're struggling in a way. I think they're trying to bring the platform by doing, you know, acquisition after acquisition to be a platform for other people to build on top off. But they're having a little trouble there because because off there, such pricing and little closeness, if you will. And, uh, again, I'm coming, going, going back to developers like, if you are not appealing to developers who are writing the latest and greatest code and it is open enough, by the way open and open source are two different things that we all know that. So if your platform is not open enough, you will have you know, some problems in closing the deals. >>E. I want to just bring up a question on chat around from Justin didn't fitness. Who says can you touch on the vertical clouds? Has your offering this and great question Great CP announcing Retail cloud inventions IBM Athena Okay, I'm a huge on this point because I think this I'm not saying this for years. Cloud computing is about horizontal scalability and vertical specialization, and that's absolutely clear, and you see all the clouds doing it. The vertical rollouts is where the high fidelity data is, and with machine learning and AI efforts coming out, that's accelerated benefits. There you have tow, have the vertical focus. I think it's super smart that clouds will have some sort of vertical engine, if you will in the clouds and build on top of a control playing. Whether that's data or whatever, this is clearly the winning formula. If you look at all the successful kind of ai implementations, the ones that have access to the most data will get the most value. So, um if you're gonna have a data driven cloud you have tow, have this vertical feeling, Um, in terms of verticals, the data on DSO I think that's super important again, just generally is a strategy. I think Google doing a retail about a super smart because their whole pitches were not Amazon on. Some people say we're not Google, depending on where you look at. So every of these big players, they have dominance in the areas, and that's scarce. Companies and some companies will never go to Amazon for that reason. Or some people never go to Google for other reasons. I know people who are in the ad tech. This is a black and we're not. We're not going to Google. So again, it is what it is. But this idea of vertical specialization relevant in super >>forts, I want to bring to point out to sessions that are going on today on great points. I'm glad you asked that question. One is Alan. As he kicks off at 1 p.m. Eastern time in the transformation track, he's gonna talk a lot about the coming power of ecosystems and and we've talked about this a lot. That that that to compete with Amazon, Google Azure, you've gotta have some kind of specialization and vertical specialization is a good one. But of course, you see in the big Big three also get into that. But so he's talking at one o'clock and then it at 3 36 PM You know this times are strange, but e can explain that later Hillary Hunter is talking about she's the CTO IBM I B M's ah Financial Cloud, which is another really good example of specifying vertical requirements and serving. You know, an audience subject. I think you have some thoughts on this. >>Actually, I lost my thought. E >>think the other piece of that is data. I mean, to the extent that you could build an ecosystem coming back to Alan Nancy's premise around data that >>billions of dollars in >>their day there's billions of dollars and that's the title of the session. But we did the trillion dollar baby post with Jazzy and said Cloud is gonna be a trillion dollars right? >>And and the point of Alan Answer session is he's thinking from an individual firm. Forget the millions that you're gonna save shifting to the cloud on cost. There's billions in ecosystems and operating models. That's >>absolutely the business value. Now going back to my half stack full stack developer, is the business value. I've been talking about this on the clubhouses a lot this past month is for the entrepreneurs out there the the activity in the business value. That's the new the new intellectual property is the business logic, right? So if you could see innovations in how work streams and workflow is gonna be a configured differently, you have now large scale cloud specialization with data, you can move quickly and take territory. That's much different scenario than a decade ago, >>at the point I was trying to make earlier was which I know I remember, is that that having the horizontal sort of features is very important, as compared to having vertical focus. You know, you're you're more healthcare focused like you. You have that sort of needs, if you will, and you and our auto or financials and stuff like that. What Google is trying to do, I think that's it. That's a good thing. Do cook up the reference architectures, but it's a bad thing in a way that you drive drive away some developers who are most of the developers at 80 plus percent, developers are horizontal like you. Look at the look into the psyche of a developer like you move from company to company. And only few developers will say I will stay only in health care, right? So I will only stay in order or something of that, right? So they you have to have these horizontal capabilities which can be applied anywhere on then. On top >>of that, I think that's true. Sorry, but I'll take a little bit different. Take on that. I would say yes, that's true. But remember, remember the old school application developer Someone was just called in Application developer. All they did was develop applications, right? They pick the framework, they did it right? So I think we're going to see more of that is just now mawr of Under the Covers developers. You've got mawr suffer defined networking and software, defined storage servers and cloud kubernetes. And it's kind of like under the hood. But you got your, you know, classic application developer. I think you're gonna see him. A lot of that come back in a way that's like I don't care about anything else. And that's the promise of cloud infrastructure is code. So I think this both. >>Hey, I worked. >>I worked at people solved and and I still today I say into into this context, I say E r P s are the ultimate low code. No code sort of thing is right. And what the problem is, they couldn't evolve. They couldn't make it. Lightweight, right? Eso um I used to write applications with drag and drop, you know, stuff. Right? But But I was miserable as a developer. I didn't Didn't want to be in the applications division off PeopleSoft. I wanted to be on the tools division. There were two divisions in most of these big companies ASAP. Oracle. Uh, like companies that divisions right? One is the cooking up the tools. One is cooking up the applications. The basketball was always gonna go to the tooling. Hey, >>guys, I'm sorry. We're almost out of time. I always wanted to t some of the sections of the day. First of all, we got Holder Mueller coming on at lunch for a power half hour. Um, you'll you'll notice when you go back to the home page. You'll notice that calendar, that linear clock that we talked about that start times are kind of weird like, for instance, an appendix coming on at 1 24. And that's because these air prerecorded assets and rather than having a bunch of dead air, we're just streaming one to the other. So so she's gonna talk about people, process and technology. We got Kathy Southwick, whose uh, Silicon Valley CEO Dan Sheehan was the CEO of Dunkin Brands and and he was actually the c 00 So it's C A CEO connecting the dots to the business. Daniel Dienes is the CEO of you I path. He's coming on a 2:47 p.m. East Coast time one of the hottest companies, probably the fastest growing software company in history. We got a guy from Bain coming on Dave Humphrey, who invested $750 million in Nutanix. He'll explain why and then, ironically, Dheeraj Pandey stew, Minuteman. Our friend interviewed him. That's 3 35. 1 of the sessions are most excited about today is John McD agony at 403 p. M. East Coast time, she's gonna talk about how to fix broken data architectures, really forward thinking stuff. And then that's the So that's the transformation track on the future of cloud track. We start off with the Big Three Milan Thompson Bukovec. At one oclock, she runs a W s storage business. Then I mentioned gig therapy wrath at 1. 30. He runs Azure is analytics. Business is awesome. Paul Dillon then talks about, um, IDs Avery at 1 59. And then our friends to, um, talks about interview Simon Crosby. I think I think that's it. I think we're going on to our next session. All right, so keep it right there. Thanks for watching the Cuban cloud. Uh huh.

>>from >>around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >>Welcome to the Cube virtual and our coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. I'm your host, Lisa Martin, and with me today is Amiram Shachar, the V P and GM of Spot by Netapp program. It's great to have you on the program. >>Thank you, Lisa. It's great to be here. >>So here we are in this virtual world that we're all living in great that we can still connected you. But I wanted to understand you're the founder and CEO of Spot, which was acquired by net up earlier this year. Talk to me a little bit about spot about the technology and what's going on since the Net acquisition. >>Absolutely so Spot is the company that was founded in late 2015 on was centered and concentrated about helping companies thio optimize their cloud infrastructure costs through automation off software of how customers air provisioning their compute so we could possibly help customers to choose their best price off server infrastructure in the price and the best size off server infrastructure in the cloud on, You know, since we launched the company. So we help over 1500 customers worldwide. Thio use our technology scale that revenues to tens of millions of dollars of revenue raised money from top VCs, including Intel Capital, Vertex and Highland on just recently, four months ago, we got acquired by buying it up. >>Excellent. So that's a pretty fast from launch to acquisition, You know, less than five years. Must have a neck brace collar on from the whiplash. That and covert, right with flash. So talk to me about acquisition a few months ago. What's going on with the technologies, aunt? How is the netapp, um, customer base helping to expand your market penetration? >>Yeah. So it was clear, uh, during the rationality. You know, when we did the rationale of the acquisition, So it was clear that spot is going to remain a an entity with the netapp. So, for example, we preserved our brand, so it's spot by net up. It's not gonna be just integrated, and that's it. So we're not gonna see spot disappearing. It's actually the opposite. So we're gonna leveraged a market credibility. That net up is 27 years. You know storage leading storage provider has in the market, and we're gonna use spot as a brand to lean forward and lead with cloud native applications on Do. What we're gonna do is we're gonna help to netapp transform, like, you know, net up existing customers. They're moving to the cloud so not only they can use netapp storage in the cloud. They can also use thesaurus fair and automation and optimization layers that sport provides. Actually. >>So talk to me about what's going on in the market today. We've been talking for months now about this acceleration of digital transformation, acceleration of cloud adoption given businesses now are working so differently. Talk to me about what you are seeing, what your customers just seeing how you're helping them to manage and not just keep the lights on right now. But be able to be successful in going positions Well, in the future. >>Mhm. So I'm seeing like to two main trends. The first trend is like more cloud usage, but that's very general, very vague. But what I do see in in addition to that is actually like priorities have been changed. And when I talk about priority like priority is not only moving to the cloud but doing it efficiently. So customers who already using cloud we're moving to the cloud they really need Thio, you know, planned this in the most efficient way. So I can tell you, for example, a lot of customers that actually we were talking to them to use us at the beginning of 2020. So they intended to use us in, like, you know, third quarter, fourth quarter of the year, like it all got accelerated and they started to use our platform because they put their priorities have changed and they wanna have, like, optimization of cost, right? Right now, >>yeah, That's been something that a lot of folks have been wanting and needing even to just keep the lights on, get their eyes on visibility where we spending costs. Are we using cloud efficiently? If not, how can we work with technology vendors to help us get that visibility and optimize our costs and spend so tell me about from a conversation perspective, uh, post, you know, during this interesting year, the acquisition occurred. Are your conversations with customers changing? Are we seeing now? Is cloud rising even up that the C suite stacked to the board in terms of the conversations that you're having, >>you know, and I'm seeing this like for five years. Like how our conversations are changing the year over year and year over year, we're seeing like improvement in our type of conversations because people living in, like, you know, to the Cloud Mawr people thinking about about optimization is becoming a priority. As I mentioned, like, you know, four years ago like it's not about optimizing cloud. It's about moving to the cloud. And right now I have so many things in the cloud. I just need to run it well, I need to understand why them thio bring in the cloud. So our conversation has gotten a lot better on, especially in 2020 on. Do you think about cloud expenditure like this is probably the second biggest line item off every company's expenses. So it goes directly to the cause, which is the cost of good salt of every company. So it goes directly go off the margin off cos so Cloud is definitely becoming a board discussion thing. >>So talk to me about some of the new products and capabilities that you guys have now that you're part of that. >>So first of all, is the company we really believe in, like listening to customers, seeing what they need and innovating on their behalf. I think this is like our mission, and I'm always like saying that like customers always want, like cheaper cloud and more simple cloud. This is like a strategy to build a long term business like, I don't know if customers will not need, like, cheaper cloud in 10 years from now. And I don't know if customers would want more complicated cloud in 10 years from cloud in 10 years from now. Um so in order to keep that momentum So we're doubling down like our existing technology, which helping customers to optimize their pricing purchasing. As you know, we're helping companies to purchase across the three pricing models in the cloud and the first pricing model being on demand, which is you pay by the hour the second pricing model being reserved instances or savings plans, which is you basically reserve capacity for longer time, and then you get a discount. And the third pricing model, called Spot and Spot, basically is like either the resource is idle. Compute resource is that cloud providers have and they're willing to sell you that in a low rate, but they can take it away from you at any moment. So what our technology does it actually balancing in the most economical way across these three pricing models that we basically push the savings to the maximum while we also keep the S. L. A and the SLOC over the customers. So what we're releasing now doubling down on the technology is we're introducing something called predictive re balancing, which is basically customers who are launching spot instances and they want to migrate between spot instances, two different spot instances or two reserved instances so we could do it much more proactively than ever before. We've been investing a lot of machine learning engineers on that problem. We've put a lot of brain power toe work on this, and we're gladly happy to release a new, updated version of that. It can help customers to get warnings off almost an hour before an interruption might happen. >>Predictive re balancing, You said it's called one of the things I was thinking when you were talking about the three pricing tiers and what you guys help businesses do. It sounds very dynamic and iterative in the moment. So based on what's it based on usage data volumes, how do you help customers make that? How does the technology actually help customers with that dynamic, that predictive re balancing? >>So it's a great question, because the way that it works, it really matches the technology stack of the customer. So if we understand that this is like a Web service running behind an elastic load balancer, so the predictive rebalancing will have Behavior X. And if we realize that this is a big data workload that requires, um, some other type of compute provisioning. So the predictive rebalancing will behave like why. And there is also the new wave of APS, which are cloud native containers and micro services so actually predictor of balancing notes to identify that. So, basically, if you think about that, what happens behind the scenes is that we migrate between different pricing models and we just move containers around. The customers don't really know what happened behind the scenes, but they that the output of everything is the most optimized and high available capacity they could possibly get from the cloud. >>So what sort of cost savings are we talking about? Can you share an examples of some what some of your customers has have achieved? >>Mhm. So, yeah, we're talking about like, I think the benchmark is anywhere between 70 to 90%. We have a lot of public use cases with our customers and some of our really valuable customers like check, which is an education tech technology company which are running with us. The entire fleet off containers reported like over 65% off cost reduction of the under compute also, ah, gum gum, which is computer vision company that analyzes, um ads in real time. They also reported over 70% off cost reduction of their off their cloud infrastructure a swell as the well known Ticketmaster, which is also a very large customer virus and using us and all of their production communities clusters and also saved, um, over 60 to 70% off their containers infrastructure. >>So big savings. I think the lowest number heard you say, with 60% so big impact that the technology is able to make talk to me about the existing customers that and you've got some big brand. You mentioned Ticketmaster? Um, how How have things changed for them or not changed for them with the net acquisition, you talked about maintaining the spot brand. But talk to me about kind of that transition for your existing customers. >>So, you know, it's actually a very, um, you know, e felt lucky, like going through this process of an acquisition, you know, is the founder of a company. And it's, uh it's very, uh, very pleasing. Calls to have with customers is when you call customers and you tell them about the acquisition. And I was lucky enough to tell them like, Hey, guys, nothing is gonna change Like our road map is going to continue in the same way our name is going to remain the same way. The only thing we're gonna bother you with, quote unquote as we're going to add storage capabilities into our computer capabilities, >>that must have been music to their ears. But I gotta ask you, what's it like doing an acquisition in the middle of a global pandemic? And we're completely remote, right? >>You know, this is an experience I will never forget. Uh, you know it, Z, you're just You're at home. You know, I was also I was really lucky to become a father for the first time. And I know earlier this year s Oh, it's like you're with your baby wife, family and just all day calls on going and you know it, Z it's It's a really amazing experience that I think I will never forget. >>Yeah, I think I'm with you on that unique experiences. Well, congratulations for being a new father, but that also makes it challenging, right? You're you're CEO of a startup. It's about to get acquired. And you've got a newborn as, ah coworker. So all of a sudden, all these challenges that just add, um ADM or challenges to the mix. So I'm sure it was great to be able to have the conversation with your existing customers about what little is changing, but also for them. What's the opportunity for those existing customers to really start taking advantage of all of net tax net ops capabilities? >>So that's exactly the intersection between spot and ETA, which I feel like super excited about, because if you think about that like we've built a technology of computer optimization over the last five years. That up is a big, brand, credible company. Going for 27 years, more than 27 years. The last seven years get up has has been doing like a massive shift to the cloud supporting their customers were moving from on Prem to the cloud. So net up what never actually did. And I was very amazed by that, which is the imported >>all of their own >>premise t technology and put it in the cloud in the platform that they call cloud volumes, which is you. Basically, you can get >>all the >>features that Netapp provides, like advanced snap shooting and back up and fast restored and compression D duplication, which I remember managing data centers myself from my military days. I was using a lot of netapp stuff >>on. They took all of these great things and put it in the ground. And now what we can >>actually do for our customers is that we can actually attach like the computer they're buying from us and optimizing with us with the storage, the great storage that offers in the cloud in the cloud volume platform. >>It's a lot of opportunities there. In fact, Netapp has We've been talking about this on the Cube for a while. For years, Netapp has gone, undergone a big transformation, a big evolution, and it sounds like what they're doing with spot and also the opportunities that it's providing. So not just your existing customers, but you're prospective customers. And your new customers is just kind of keeping that door wide open. Which right now in this interesting time is is essential is businesses are continuing to pivot as this time unfold, and we know something's going to remain permanent, but that got to be able to pivot quickly. Otherwise, the competition is probably in the rear view mirror, maybe smaller, more agile and ready to take over. >>That's so true and like, you know, generally speaking about, like transformation, like modernization of application. So, like huge trend that we're seeing. And this is also a huge intersection between netapp and spot. Um, is everything kubernetes and everything containers eso we're seeing organizations moving to the cloud, but they're they're not, like, no, not anymore looking at, like just lift and ship their like, lift modernized ship like people want to modernize our application for various reasons. And we see containers. Technology is just becoming like the de facto technology for shipping applications in the cloud, and we're seeing kubernetes on the rise and one of our products. That spot, called Ocean Eyes, is a product that manages compute for kubernetes. So our our tagline is basically serverless containers, which is customers deploy their containers and then we manage the infrastructure underneath. They don't need to define their infrastructure, think about their infrastructure, just like it's a really a near Vanna for for develops, people responsible for communities. And then when we actually, you know, got into Nana and we saw all of, like, the cloud volumes technology that I was telling you about, we said it like, Hey, what if we can take this service, compute off containers and we can actually make it for storage as well? And we basically you can take all the good things that you get from service, which is, you know, no infrastructure management building Mike utility building, you know, scale to zero scale to like, you know, infinite. If you need >>Andi with no infrastructure management and this is actually possible with the netapp cloud >>volumes technology. So, actually, right now we're launching with net up, something will recall storage less volumes, which is basically for containers were going to allow that directly from our ocean product that you will be able to get storage list volumes that are going to be completely Hence we management of storage. And just to set the tone like, what is storage is like, Is there no storage like, what is surveillance are their storage? Are their service there? Of course there are, but you don't manage them. So what storage is? Is there a storage underneath? Of course there is, but you don't need to manage it. And >>is that something that your customers can take advantage of? Now, is that coming in the next quarter or so? What's the timing on that? >>But this is, um this is right now already in preview. So we already opened that to some of our, you know, advanced customers that are using, like all of our latest and greatest you know, features. So it's already with customers validation working with them. They're actually actually love it and love the fact that they don't need to manage storage, because when you move to the cloud. You actually don't really care about storage anymore because it's becoming just oil for your applications. Eso and it's gonna be generally available. Hopefully, in the first half of 2021. >>Exciting. Something positive to look forward to. You'll have to come back and share with us. Some of the results. Mm. It's been great to have you on the Cube. Thanks for spending some time with me >>today. Likewise. Lisa, thank you very much. >>I'm Lisa Martin. 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>>Yeah, yeah. >>Welcome back, everyone. And let's get ready for session number two, which is all around picking the right use cases. We're going to take a look at how to make the most of your data driven journey through the lens of some instructive customer examples. So today we're joined by thought squads David Copay, who is a director of business value consulting like Daniel, who's a customer success manager and then engagement manager. Andrea Frisk, who not so long ago was actually a product manager. Canadian Tire, who are one of our customers. And she was responsible for the thoughts. What implementation? So we figured Who better to get involved? But yeah, let's Let's take it away, David. >>Thanks, Gina. Welcome, everybody. And Andrea Blake looking forward to this session with you. A zoo. We all know preparation early is key to success on Duin. Any project having the right team on sponsorship Thio, build and deploy. Ah, use case is critical being focused on three outcome that you have in mind both the business deliverables and then also the success criteria of how you're going to manage, uh, manage and define success. When you get there, Eyes really critical to to set you up in the right direction initially. So, Andrea, as as we mentioned, uh, you came from an organization that quite several use cases on thoughts about. So maybe you can talk us through some of those preparation steps that, yeah, that you went through and and share some insights on how folks can come prepare appropriately. >>Eso having the right team members makes such a difference. Executive support really helped the Canadian tire adoption spread. It gave the project presence and clout in leadership meetings and helped to drive change from the top down. We had clear goals and success criteria from our executive that we used to shape the go forward plan with training and frame the initial use case roadmap. One of the other key benefits over executive sponsor was that the reporting team for our initial use case rolled up by underhand. So there was a very clear directive for a rapid phase out of the old tools once thought Spot supported the same data story. And this is key because as you start to roll through use cases, you wanna realize the value. And if you're still executing the old the same time as the new. That's not gonna happen. As we expanded into areas where we were unfamiliar with the data in business utilization, we relied on the data experts and and users to inform what success would look like in the new use cases. We learned early on that those who got volunteer old and helping didn't always become the champions. That would help you drive value from the use case. Using the thoughts about it meant tables. We started to seek out users who are consistently logging in after an initial training, indicating their curiosity and appetite to learn more. We also looked for activities outside of just pin board views toe identify users that had the potential to build and guide new users as subject matter experts, not just in a data but in thought spot. This helps us find the right people to cultivate who were already excited about the potential of thought spot and could help us champion a use case. >>That's really helpful, great, great insight for someone who's been there and done that. Blake is as a customer success manager. Obviously, you approach many of the same situations, anything you'd like to add that >>I still along with the right team. My first question with any use cases. Why Why are we doing this? You've gathered all this data and now we want to use it. But But what for? When you get that initial response on Why this use case? Don't stop there. Keep asking Why keep digging? Keep digging. Keep digging. So what you're essentially trying to get at is what does the decision is that we will be made or potentially be made because of this use case. For example, let's say that we're looking at an expenses use case. What will be done with the insides gathered with this use case? Are those insights going? Thio change the expense approval process Now, Once you have that, why defined now it becomes a lot easier to define the success criteria. Success criteria they use. Face can sometimes be difficult to truly defined. But when you understand why it becomes much easier, so now you can document that success criteria. And the hard part at that point is to actually track that success over time, track the success of the use case, which is something that is easily miss but It's something that is incredibly useful to the overall initiative. >>Right measure. Measure the outcomes. You can't manage what you what? You can't what you don't measure right? As the old adage goes, and you know it's part of the business consulting team. That's really where we come in. Is helping customers really fundamentally define? How are we going to measure a success? Aziz. We move forward. Andi, I think you know, I think we've alluded to this a little bit in terms of that sort of ongoing nature of This is, you know, after the title of the session, eyes choosing the right news cases in the plural right? So it's very important to remember that this is not a single point in time event that happens once. This is a constant framework or process, because most organizations will find that there's many use cases, potentially dozens of use cases that thoughts what could be used for, and clearly you can't move forward with all of them. At the same time, eso. Another thing that our team helps customers walk through is what's the impact, the potential value, other particular use case. You know, you, Blake, you mentioned some of those outcomes, is it? Changing the expense processes it around? Reducing customer churn is an increasing speed toe insight and speak the market on defining those measurable outcomes that define the vertical axis here. The strategic importance off that use case. Um, but that's not the only dimension that you're gonna look at the East to deploy factors into that you could have the most valuable use case ever. But if it's going to take you to three years to get it implemented for various reasons, you're not really gonna start with that one, right? So the combination of east to deploy, aligned with the strategic importance or business value really gives you that road map of where to focus to prioritize on use cases. Eso again, Andrea, you've been through this, um, in your prior time at Canadian time. Maybe you can share some thoughts on how you approach that. >>Yeah. So our initial use case was a great launching platform because the merchandizing team had a huge amount across full engagement. So once we had the merchants on board, we started to plan or use case roadmap looking for other areas, and departments were thought spot had already started to spread by word of mouth and we where we felt there was a high strategic importance. As we started to scope these areas, the ease of deployment started to get more complicated. We struggled to get the right people engaged and didn't always have the top down support for resources in the new use case area. We wanted to maintain momentum with the adoption, but it was starting to feel like we were stalling out on the freeway. Then the strategic marketing team reached out and was really excited about getting into thought spot. This was an underserved team where when it came to data, they always had someone else running it for them, and they'd have to request reports and get the information in. Um, and our initial roadmap focused on the biggest impact areas where we could get the most users, and this team was not on the radar. But when we started to engage with them, we realized that this was gonna be an easy deployment. We already had the data and thought spot to support their needs, and it turned into such a great win because as a marketing team, they were so thrilled to have thought spot and to get the data when they needed it and wanted it. They continued to spread the word and let everyone know. But it also gave the project team a quick win to put some gas in the tank and keep us moving. So you want to plan your use case trajectory, but you also need to be willing to adapt to keep the momentum going. >>Yeah, no, that's a That's a really great point. So So Blake is a customer success manager. I'm sure you lived through some integration of this all the time. So any anything you wanted to add that >>Yes. So to Andrew's point, continuous delivery is key for technical folks out there were talking and agile methodology mindset versus a waterfall. So to show value, there's many different factors that air at play. You need to look at the overall business initiatives. We need to look at financial considerations. We need to look at different career objectives and also resource limitations. So when you start thinking about all those different factors, this becomes a mixture of art and science. So, for example, at the beginning of a project when thought spot is has just been purchased or whatever tool has just been purchased. You want to show immediate value to justify that purchase. So in order to show immediate value, you might want to look at a project or a use case that is tightly aligned to a business objective. Therefore, it shows value, and it has data that is ready to go without many different transformations. But as you move forward, you have to come up with a plan that is going to mix together these difficult use cases with the easier use cases and high business values cases versus the lower. So in order to do that, my most successful customers are evaluating those different business factors and putting those into place with an overall use case development plan. >>Really good feedback. That's great. Thank you. Thanks, Blake. Um, I think s a little bit of a reality check here. Right. So I think we all recognize that any technology implementation, um, is gonna have her bumps in the road. It's not gonna be smooth sailing all along the way. You know, we talk about people, process and technology. The technology wrote wrote roadblocks can be infrastructure related there could be some of the data quality issues that you're alluding to there. Like Onda, people in process fall into the sort of the cultural, uh, cultural cultural side of it. Blake, maybe you can spend a couple minutes going through. What? What if some of those bigger roadblocks that people may face on that, um, technical side on how they could both prepare for them and then address them as they come along? >>Yeah. So the most intimidating part of any business intelligence or analytics initiative is that it's going to put the data directly into the hands of the business users. And this is especially true with ocelot. So why this is intimidating is because it's going toe, lay bare and expose any data issues that exist. So this is going to lead to the most common objective that I hear to starting. Any new use case or any FBI initiative overall, which is our data isn't ready. And essentially that is fear of failure. So when data isn't ready and companies aren't ready to start these projects, what happens is to get around those data issues. There's a lot of patchwork that's happening, you know, this patchwork is necessary just to keep the wheels in motion just to keep things going. So what I mean by the patchwork is extracting the data from a source doing some manual manipulation, doing some manipulation directly within the within the database in order to satisfy those business users request. So this keeps things going, but it's not addressing the key issues that are in place now. While it's intimidating to start these initiatives, the beauty of starting these B I initiatives is it's going to force your company to address and fix these issues. And this, to me, is somewhere where thoughts what is a gigantic benefit? It's not something that we talk about necessarily or market, but thought Spot is really good at helping fix these data issues. And I say this for two reasons. One his data quality. So, with thoughts about you can run, searches directly against your most granular level data and find where those data issues exist, and now, especially with embrace, you're running it directly against the source. So thats what is going to really help you figure out those data quality issues. So as you develop a use case, we can uncover those data quality issues and address them accordingly. And second is data governance. So especially again with embrace and our cloud, our cloud structure is you are going to be bringing Companies are going to be bringing data sources from all over the place all into one source and into one logical view. And so traditionally, the problem with that is that your data and source a might be the theoretically the same data and source B. But the numbers are different. And so you have different versions of the truth. So what thoughts about helps you do is when you bring those sources together. Now you're gonna identify those issues, and now you're gonna be forced to address them. You're gonna be forced to address naming convention issues, business logic issues, which business logic translates to the technical logic toe transform that data and then also security and access. Who was actually able to see this data across these different data sources. So overall, the biggest objective eye here is our data isn't ready. But I challenge that. And I say that by taking on this initiative with thought spot, you were going to be directly addressing that issue and thoughts. What's going to help you fix it? >>Yeah, that's Ah, I'd love that observation that, you know, data quality issues. They're not gonna go away by themselves. And if thoughts, thoughts what could be part of the solution, then even better. So that's a That's a really great observation. Eso Andrea, looking at the sort of the cultural side of things the people in process, Um, what are some of the challenges that you've seen there that folks in the audience could that could learn from? >>Yeah. So think about the last time you learned a new system or tool. How long did it take you to get adjusted and get the performance you wanted from it? Maybe you hit the ground running, but maybe you still feel like you're not quite getting the most out of it. Everyone deals with change differently, and sometimes we get stuck in the change curve and never fully adapt. Companies air no different. Ah, lot of the roadblocks you may face are not only from individual struggling to get on board, but can be the result of an organizational culture that may not be used to change or managing it. Their external impacts on how we accept change such as Was there a clear message about the upcoming changes and impacts? Was there a communication channel for questions and concerns? Did individuals feel like their input was sought after and valued? Where there are multiple mediums, toe learn from was their time to learn? Organizational change is hard. And if there isn't a culture that allocates time and resources to training, then realizing success is gonna be an uphill battle. It will be harder to move people forward if they don't have the time to get comfortable and feel acclimated to the new way of doing things. Without the training and change support from the organization, you'll end up running the old and the new simultaneously, which we talked about not in our live supporting users, in both eyes going to negate that value. There were times at Canadian Tire where we really struggled to get key stakeholders engaged or to get leadership by it on the time of the resources that we're gonna be needed and committed Thio to make a use case successful. So gauging where people and the organization are in the change curve is the first step in moving them along the path towards acceptance and integration. So you'll wanna have an action plan to address the concerns and resistance and a way to solicit and channel feedback. >>Yeah, that's Zo great feedback. And I particularly like what you talked about sort of the old and the new because, you know, we've talked about success and measurement on value quite a bit in this session, and ultimately that's that's the goal, right? Is to live a Value s o. This is a framework that we found really helpful visit. Value Team is defining those success criteria really actually falls into two categories on the right hand side. Better decisions. Um, that's ultimately what you're looking to drive with thoughts about right. You're looking to get newer inside faster to be able to drive action and outcomes based on decisions that do. Maybe we're using your gut for previously on the words under that heading. They're going to change by organizations. So you know, those don't get too caught up on those, but it's really around defining, you know, one. Are those better decisions that you're looking to drive, Who what's the persona is gonna be making them one of their actually looking to accomplish when inside. So they're looking to get one of what are the actions they're going to take on those insights? And then how do we measure Thean pact of those actions that then provides us with the the foundation of a business case in our I, um, in parallel to that, it's important to remember that this use case is not just operating in a vacuum, right? Every organization has a Siri's off strategic transformational initiatives move to the cloud democratized data, etcetera. And to the extent that you can tie particular use cases into those key strategic initiatives, really elevates the importance off that use case outside of its own unique business case. In our calculation on Bazzaz several purposes, right, it raises the visibility project. It raises the visibility of the person championing project on. Do you know reality here is that every idea organization has tons of projects have taken invest in, but the ones they're gonna be more likely to invest in other ones that are tied to those strategic initiatives. So it increases the likelihood of getting the support and funding that you need to drive this forward um, that's really around defining the success success criteria upfront. Um, and >>what >>we find is a lot of organizations do that pretty well, and they've got a solid, really solid business case to move forward. But then over time, they kind of forget about that on. Do you know, a year down the line two years down the line, Maybe even, you know, three months, six months down the line. Maybe people have rotated through the business. People have come and gone, and you almost forget the benefit that you're driving, right? And so it's really important to not do that and keep an eye on and track Onda, look back and analyze and realize the value that use cases have driven on. Obviously, the structure of that and what you measure is gonna very significantly by escape. But it's really important there Thio to make sure that you're counting your success and measuring your success. Um, Andrea, I don't any any thoughts on that from from your past experience. >>Yeah, um, success will be different For each use case, 1 may be focused on reducing the time to insights in a fast competitive market, while another may be driven by a need to increase data fluency to reduce risk. The weighting of each of these criterias will shift and and the value perception should as well. Um, but one thing that we don't want to forget is to share your personal successes. So be proud of the work that you've done in the value it's created. Um, if you're a user who has taken advantage of thought spot and managed to grab a competitive edge by having faster in depth access to data, share that in your business reviews. If you're managing the adoption at your company, share your use case winds and user adoption stories. Your customer success team is here to help you articulate the value and leverage the great work being done in and because of thought spot. >>Yeah, long story short here. This benefits everybody. This is something that's easily overlooked and something that it ZZ not to do this to track adoption to define the r o I, but it benefits those benefits. Start spot benefits of customers. Everybody wins. When we do this, >>that's Ah, that's a great point. So, um, so if we talk about you know, as we wrap the session up. You know what can what can folks in the audience dio right now to start making some of this stuff happened? You know, you're Blake again, coming back to you in customer success. How have you and your role help customers take that next step and start executing on some of the things that we've talked about? >>Yeah. So to start off with, I would just say for each use case as much as possible, define the why and to find the success criteria. Just start off with those two, those two elements and over time that that process we'll get more and more refined and our goal within the CSCE or within within thoughts. But overall, not just the C s order is to enable all of our all of our customers to be able to do all these things on their own. And to be a successful, it's possible to be able to pick the right use cases to be able to execute those right use cases as effectively as possible. So we are here to help with that. CS is here to help with that. Your account executives here to help with that, we have use case workshops. We have our professional services team that can get in and help develop use cases. So lots of options available in goal. We all mutually benefit when we try to track towards thes best possible use cases. >>All right, that we're here to help. That's Ah, that's a great way. Thio, wrap up the session there. Thanks, Blake. For all of your thoughts and Andrea to hope everyone in the audience got some valuable insights here on how to choose the right news case and be successful with thoughts about, um, with that being, I'll hand it back over to you. >>Amazing. That was an awesome session. Thank you so much, guys. So our third session is up next, and we're going to be going Global s. Oh, hang on tight as we explore best practices from the extended ecosystem of cloud based analytics. >>Yeah,

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. Special coverage sponsored by AWS Global Partner Network Welcome to the Cubes. Live coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. I'm Lisa Martin. I've got two guests joining me. Next. Chris Gru's director of Business development, AWS Marketplace Service catalog and Control Tower at AWS. Chris, welcome. >>Thank you. Welcome. Good to see you. >>Likewise. And Matthew Polly is an alumni of the Cube. He is back VP of worldwide business development alliances and channels at Crowdstrike Matthew, Welcome toe. Welcome back. >>Great to be here. Lisa, Thanks for having me. >>And I see you're in your garage, your f one car in the background. Very jealous. So we're gonna be talking a little bit about not f one today, but about what's going on. Some of the the news that's coming from the partner Keynote. So, Chris, let's start with you. What's going on? The AWS marketplace news and also give our audience a real good understanding of what the marketplace is. >>Yeah, sure. So So AWS marketplace is actually an eight year old service within the AWS family, and and our charter is really providing a fine by deploy and manage experience for third party software. And so what our organization does. We work with my issues like Crowdstrike, and we really try to get them to package up their software in that same consumption format that other customers are buying AWS services. It's already the best service already. Those customers are used to buying services like Red Shift, and that's three and a consumption format, and they want to be able to buy third party software in that same manner. And so that's really been our charter since we were launched eight years ago. We've had a lot of great mo mentum since our launch. We now have over 8000 listings available in the catalog, and we have over 1.5 million subscriptions going through the catalog. One of things that we announced earlier today is that we are up to 300,000 active customers. That's actually up from 260,000, which is our previous numbers. So we continue to see really good momentum in terms of adoption, from both our eyes, community publishing listings and then from our customers that are actually buying out of the catalog. We work on all types of formats of software, so we provide machine images in an Amazon machine image format. But we also published and make available SAS products, container products and algorithms and models to run in things like our sage maker environment. And then, as of this morning in the Global Partner Summit, we announced the ability to sell professional services through eight of this marketplace as well. >>So lots of expansion, lots of growth. I'd love to get Chris your take on this expansion into offering professional services. What does that mean? And how have your 300,000 plus customers been influential in that? >>Yeah. And so what we've seen is marketplaces evolved is the transaction sizes have actually gone up dramatically. A couple years ago we launched a feature called Private Offers, which allows eyes views to do a negotiated subscription, submit that to an AWS customer and that they accept that goes right on their bill. We've seen very good adoption that we've got thousands of private offers now going through the system and what we found when the transaction sizes started to grow. Both our eyes V s that we're using the platform, as well as the consulting partners that are partners with US through Amazon Partner Network. They typically attached services to those transactions So pure and eyes V you might wanna package on something like an installation service training services. Or it could just be a bespoke statement of work that goes along with your technology and then on the consulting partner side. Resellers want to attach those same type of services to the software that they re sell, and up until this morning we weren't able to do that. And so it provided a lot of friction to our customers or buyers because what they had to do is they actually had to bottom line those transactions, or they had to do those transactions outside of marketplace. And And that wasn't a good experience for either RSV community or restore community or customers. So now, with this launch, we could actually allow customers to buy those services from those Eyes v partners and those resellers. By virtue of doing that to marketplace and basically how it works. It's similar to our private offer experience. They just submit a private offer to that customer. They could upload a statement of work. And if that customer accept, it goes directly on their AWS bill and they did. This marketplace takes care of all the collection, and the building that goes goes along with that transaction. And so we're really excited about this. We had over 100 launch partners that we're ready to go as of this morning, and we think this is gonna be a great feature, is gonna get a lot of adoption. Crowdstrike, which is a company that Matthews with is one of our launch partners for that feature. And so we just think this is gonna be a game changer for us on a number of levels. It's really gonna open up the type of transactions that we can now do to market place. >>Well, you mentioned Ah, good f word frictionless. That's something that every business really aims to do to make that experience just as seamless as possible. So Matthew talk to us about crowdstrike being part of its professional services, launched the opportunities that that opens up for the marketplace, customers and your customers? >>Sure. So just a quick background on crowdstrike were an endpoint protection cybersecurity company that has historically been protecting laptops desktops on premise, uh, devices from from breaches, basically identifying indications of attack or indications of compromise that that may surface on those end points. We do that by having agents run on those devices and point back to our massive body of data that runs in the cloud A W s. In fact, and so collecting tons and tons of data petabytes upon petabytes of data, literally trillions of events per week were able to easily identify and apply machine learning and artificial intelligence, Um, to that corpus of data to be able to identify when there is adversary activity on those devices. Now we've gone through a bit of a digital transformation ourselves, and we're looking at now. Not only, or we have launched products here recently, that not only protect those on premise devices like the desktops, laptops and on premise servers, but also protect workloads that are running in the cloud E C. Two instances, or RDS instances. What have you in in AWS? Or we've also launched what crowdstrike calls are Falcon Horizon product, which is a cloud security posture management product to be able to give people visibility into configurations that may create risk for their cloud environments. And we've been leveraging marketplace for about two years now. Um, it's been a fantastic opportunity for us to really leverage that frictionless sales motion that Chris talked about reducing sale cycles for us and for our channel partners. We have a number of our channel partners that leverage the CPP Oh capability within within the AWS marketplace toe actually transact business with their customers. It's been a It's been a fantastic, um you know, mechanism for for crowdstrike, for our partners and for our customers. Um, you know, we've been part of the enterprise contract scenarios where we don't have to go through that process of negotiating an end user license contract. We've signed up for the enterprise contract. Many of our customers have signed up for that enterprise contracts with reduces the legal iterations to get a transaction done. So that's been fantastic. And what we're doing now with the you know, the professional services offering is we're standing up a few of our professional services, Um, you know, offerings on the AWS marketplace so that our customers and our channel partners can actually transact business through the AWS marketplace toe, acquire those particular professional services offerings. And the one that I think is most interesting is a kind of cloud security assessment where our professional services team will go in and actually evaluate our their configurations. Are there unmanaged, um, you know, accounts running in AWS or what have you that could represent a security risk and make recommendations about how to improve the overall security posture of that cloud environment, leveraging something like crowd strikes Falcon Horizon, as I mentioned earlier, or our cloud workload protection offering. So it >>really >>is about streamlining the procurement, offering them. You know, the ability to thio, offering customers the ability to acquire through the AWS marketplace, whether that's the crowdstrike product or the Crowdstrike service offerings. >>So, Matthew, I imagine given this year that we're all not sitting together face to face in Las Vegas. The events of this year have also brought a lot of challenges from a security perspective. We've seen Ransomware going up dramatically, but also in this massive pitot to work working remotely. I can imagine your customers big opportunity for Crowdstrike to help them when endpoints just scattered. So in terms of that, as well as the impact with what you're doing with AWS marketplace seems like a great opportunity to provide your customers with faster access to ensuring that they can guarantee the security off their all of their data, which is business critical. >>Yeah, 100%. So the kind of global pandemic and work from anywhere has driven demand for crowd strikes capabilities in two ways. Number one people leaving the office and going home. There's a proliferation of physical devices, laptops for people to actually work from home, which obviously need to be protected. And a lot of times these were people that were working from home for the first time. You know, no longer within the protection of the, you know, the corporate network. Maybe they're using a VPN or what have you? But they needed the added protection of an endpoint protection capability like crowd strikes. And the second is a lot of this digital transformation has been accelerated. We've had a few customers tell us they had a three year plan for for their their digital transformation, and a lot of that is moving on. Premise service involves moving on premise servers to the cloud, and they've had to accelerate that two months or even even weeks in cases. And that's driving. You know, huge demand for understanding how to ensure there maintaining the proper security posture for those cloud environments. So speed is key right now, making sure that you're protected and transacting those those you know, those those sale cycles quickly leveraging native US marketplace all is accelerating. >>Yes, speaking of that acceleration and we've talked about that a lot. Matthew. This acceleration of digital transformation years now crammed into months. Chris, let's wrap with you in light of that acceleration, how has that affected positively? The AWS marketplace Bringing in professional services, allowing your customers to have much more available to them, to transact directly and and in a frictionless way, when speed is so critical? >>Yeah, I mean what it really leads to. It just gives us more selection, right? So if you take a step back and you think about the you know, the infamous Amazon fire, well, one of the key components of what makes a fine we'll go a selection. And there was a lot of solutions that we had. We just couldn't sell through marketplace without having some kind of services attach. While there's a lot of products that you could just point, click and go. There are a lot of technology. Do you need to? Some have some kind of hand holding And so, you know, by virtue launching services, this actually opens up the amateur in terms of selection that we could bring into the catalog. One of things that we've been focused on as a late is bringing in business applications as an example. And a lot of times a business application might need services to go on, actually wrap around that solution cell and, you know, be part of that implementation. And so that's the other great thing about this is it's going to give us more selection, and that's just gonna let our customers buy more and more products out of this market place. But do that in this very easy format, where it literally just lets them put these transactions directly on the AWS bill. So we think it's gonna be a great you know, not only for movie deals faster but also providing more solutions to our customers and just giving a better selection experience of AWS customer >>and being able to do that all remotely, which is these days is table stakes. Chris. Matthew, Thank you so much for joining me today. Talking about what's new with the Amazon marketplace. What you guys are doing with professional services and crowdstrike. We appreciate your time. >>Yep. Thank you. Thanks. Lisa. Yep. >>From my guests. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes. Live coverage of aws reinvent 2020.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel and AWS. Yeah. >>Welcome back here in the Cube. Our continued coverage of aws reinvent 2020 all virtual coming Thio with help. Obviously have some great technology here. Joined by Luca Bertelli right now who is the director of connected platform solutions at Carrier and Luca. Thanks for joining us here on the Cube. We appreciate the time. >>Hey, John. Great. Thanks for having me. >>Yeah, I'm just curious. I know the mantra carrier is dared to disrupt. And that Z certainly very aspirational. A lot of respects, and I would think so in your world. Uh, I o t artificial intelligence machine learning. That's very much resonating with your team. I would think Give me your take of dare to disrupt. And what does that mean in terms of how you go about your business and how you encourage your >>teams? Absolutely. That's a great place to start. I mean, we're where we're really thinking about, like, a startup right now, internally. I mean, we have so much need right now for our ability to be able to do more with data. Our customers are looking for it. The industry is looking for it. And, you know, we're traditionally thought of Maura about us and equipment manufacturing company. We make refrigerated containers, refrigerated trailers, and, uh, now we're really thinking about it. How do we work with our customers in order to be able to do more than just being equipment provider or a cargo monitoring solution? So we're really thinking about it internally with ourselves is as customers use the equipment as we can help them collect all the state about it. How do we think differently about how we can help them solve bigger problems in their business? So today, you know, we traditionally think about equipment moving product from from one place to another. We support our customers. We sell them refrigerated equipment to be able to do that. And, you know, now we're really trying to change the conversation from Okay, Well, how did your equipment perform to? What changes could you be making in some of your operations and how you're using your equipment? Thio even avoid problems coming up with him. And it seems like a pretty simple jump to move from this reactive world to a predictive world, but a supply chains pretty complex. There's a lot of players in the ecosystem. There's a lot of data. There's a lot of business problems that people are looking to solve. And so we're really looking at disrupting how how we do this with our customers. >>You know, you talk about refrigeration on that's transporting food, drink medicines, which we'll get into it just a little bit. That's all about cold chain solutions. And and so define that for me, if you would, you know, we talk about Cold Chain, what exactly you are speaking of. And then let's take it to the next step in terms of what are you applying now to, from a technological standpoint, to enhance your cold chain solution array? >>Now, that's a great question, Thio. I mean, look, I didn't think 2020 would be the year. That cold chain becomes a lot more easier to come up. Yeah, but it certainly has been that kind of a year, I think. And so you know, what is the cold chain? Well, when we move, products all over the world way understand the concept of supply chains, which is you know the movement of goods across the world. And when we look at the cold chain, it's really the supply chamber for temperature sensitive products. So whether we think about it as Berries that have to be kept at certain temperatures and preserved, or even a vaccine like the ones that we're seeing come out on the market now, those have to be kept within certain temperature specifications in order to maintain their efficacious nous or their safety of usage. And so the cold chain is really just that. It's the supply chain for temperature sensitive products and our role. There is really to be able to provide, uh, you know, services and equipment and services for our customers to be able to both create the coaching, um, in the form of refrigerated traders, refrigerated containers or display cabinet on also help the monitor the coaching via cargo monitoring solutions. >>Okay, so I know in that regard you have a code development effort going on right now with AWS that you launched. Probably what, like two months ago or so links l Y N X s. So let's talk about links on DWhite what AWS is bringing to the table for you in terms of these new capabilities and now, in turn, how you're going to put them into practice and what you intend to do with that. >>Yeah. So this is Look, this is an extremely exciting time for us, uh, Thio to be discussing this, especially in light of the fact that, you know, carrier comes at it with just being a leader in cold chain equipment, coaching, monitoring and when we looked around, just look for options. Thio really collaborate with Cloud Leader and analytics and machine learning on I 80 capabilities. We just think that that co development with a W S just is tremendously powerful. I mean, we, you know, a zoo we described earlier Our expertise is Maurin the cold chain side of things. And when you start thinking about all the equipment that's out there, all these shipments that have to be moved globally, um, we just think that there's a lot more that we could do with that data to help our customers do their jobs better. Whether that's helping them a pre emptive problem, understand and quantify the risk around a particular supply chain lane, uh, and really anticipate issues going forward and quite frankly, also for us. There are opportunities for our own operational improvement to be able to leverage a lot of that data and deliver our own services in a more frictionless way to our customers. So, um, when we look at that, we look at, you know, carrier as really a Coltrane expert, AWS as a leading cloud and data analytics provider on When you combine that together, we just think there's a massive opportunity for us to really generate transformational outcomes for our customers. >>So when it comes to the kinds of capabilities that you're now gonna have at your disposal, what you can offer to your customer base, give me give me a kind of, ah general example or illustration of value added here, you know where where's the improvement? Where's the enhancement in terms of the services that you provide based on the links array of of of tools? >>Yeah, absolutely so I mean, even when we look at the cold chain today, I mean, there's was probably about $35 billion worth of failures. That's how much these failures cost in the bio pharma industry. Whether that's pour cold chain control and or other factors. And when you start looking at the what that means, yes, it's a big monetary number. But what that means is that potentially some people did not get their medication on time. Potentially, people go to bed hungry because of the 475 million tons of of food loss right there are. There are significant kind of quantitative, uh, reasons here to do this. But at the end of the day, if somebody goes hunger, somebody doesn't isn't able to get the medication, and that's related to a Coltrane issue that we could have preempted or that we could have helped preempt. That's really what drives us. So when we look at that, we think about examples like our customers that are able to move product. They do a great job moving their product along their supply chains. But are there opportunities where we could say, Look, we're about to detect the problem that that could be coming up and maybe it's not. Maybe it's not catastrophic. Maybe it just means maybe use another refrigerated trailer versus another one. Or perhaps uh, look, there's a certain weather pattern that's starting to form up. You may want to consider rerouting the product in a certain way. These are things that allow us Thio, move, move our own support our own services from a reactive one where customers have had a cold chain issue and then we help them solve about it the next time around. But now we're going to really think about how do we use all this data? All this ai All this machine learning to be able to help customers potentially make decisions on the fly, Maybe reroute a shipment as it's moving or delay sending a shipment out or perhaps using even different types of packaging solutions to help reduce some of their costs. There's just, ah lot of opportunities for us to be ableto help customers take costs out of supply chain while still maintaining that level of safety that they need, uh, in their own Coltrane. >>What's the learning curve on something like that for you? You think because you said you have these, obviously, a lot more inputs? Ah, lot faster eso You're able to process information and analyze that data much more expediently as you ever could, Um, but I assume there's still ramping up to do in terms of understanding how best to apply that knowledge that you have? >>Absolutely. And look a lot of at the end of the day, a lot of it is the technology to be able to enable some of these insights to help move the needle and move us from a reactive to a proactive world. Uh, but at the same time, it's a lot of working very closely with customers to be able to ensure that any of these recommendations or any of the work that goes on toe to recommend a rerouting or something like that actually follows through with their own operating procedures. Right. So, you know, I come from a background of unmanned vehicles. We developed a lot of really fancy algorithms, but what I found a very soon enough is if you don't work closely with the human operators that are able to actually influence that change or take action on that decision, uh, it may not lead to the desired outcome that you had. So what we see in this is that yes, developing the insights is gonna be really important. But it is gonna be fundamental for us to be customer centric and really understand How are decisions and recommendations being made in the cold train today? And how do we best provide added value and an influence? How some of those decisions could be made going forward? >>And excuse me when we're talking about vaccines today. Obviously, Kobe 19 Eyes is the headline now, although flu season is upon us a swell. Are you going to be engaged in some way, shape or form with a cove in 19 vaccine transport? >>You know, we can't talk specifics, but certainly, you know, we we certainly worked very closely with customers that that ship a lot of different pharmaceutical products and where our help is needed. We will certainly will be there to support our customers and in the distribution, uh, >>way, Have a few more minutes. I do wanna transfer to food security because I know you do a lot of work in that space, man, that's that was your your primary space. I read a number that one third of the world's food produced to be consumed by humans is wasted and and that that really struck me. And so that's almost like a mission. I would think for you and for carrier uh, Thio lesson, that number. So tell me a little bit about your work in that space in terms of food security, what you're being is being done. And how again this relationship with the analytics and the i o. T. And all those capabilities are enhancing your work in that space? >>No. Absolutely. Look like you mentioned. I mean, these are missions for us, uh, both on the food side and on the pharmaceutical side. That's really what keeps me up at night is knowing. What else could we be doing differently? Um, and so absolutely. Unfortunately, food loss still continues to be Ah, big issue globally. Um, largely depends on which geography ease We're talking about where that food loss occurs, whether it's more at the consumer side or whether it's more at the ship or Grover side, where there's, you know, in some countries there is not enough of a cold chain developed yet where a lot of the food is wasted in transit in other countries. A lot of the food is just because we just throw it away. And so what we're really laser focused on is a zoo. We start analyzing the movement of goods for our customers, a Z move product throughout the world, our ability to be able to at least move the needle from where better data around the equipment or better data around the cargo monitoring could help either remove the potential loss of a product because maybe it had. The product is about to go and have a temperature excursion where it exceeded a certain temperature and it starts spoiling faster or where we can add refrigeration. Uh, in areas where it's most needed. Our ability. Thio use that data to start recommending, uh, different types of products, different types of packaging solutions, different types of shipment routes we think can really help move the needle for some of those customers and reduce some of the the food lost that that you mentioned and lead to a more nourished population. >>Well, it is a noble work, important work, and it certainly appears carriers well poised to continue that fine work well to the future. So, Luca, good luck with that. We thank you for your time here, and we appreciate your being with us here on the Cube. >>Thanks very much, John. Good to be here.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS Public Sector online brought to you by Amazon Web services. Oven Welcome back to the cubes. Virtual coverage of Amazon Web services. Eight. Of his public sector summit online. We couldn't be there in person, but we're doing remote interviews. I'm John Curry. Your host of the Cube got a great segment from Asia Pacific on the other side of the world from California about social impact, transforming, teaching and learning with cloud technology. Got three great guests. You go. Richard is the CEO and co founder of Guys Tech and Jean Te'o, CEO and founder of Solve Education Founders and CEOs of startups is great. This is squad was the AIPAC regional head. Education, health care, not for profit and research. Ray Ws, he head start big program Vincent. Thanks for coming on, Janine. And you go Thank you for joining. >>Thanks for having us, John. >>We're not there in person. We're doing remote interviews. I'm really glad to have this topic because now more than ever, social change is happening. Um, this next generation eyes building software and applications to solve big problems. And it's not like yesterday's problems there. Today's problems and learning and mentoring and starting companies are all happening virtually digitally and also in person. So the world's changing. So, um, I gotta ask you, Vincent, we'll start with you and Amazon. Honestly, big started builder culture. You got two great founders here. CEO is doing some great stuff. Tell us a little bit what's going on. A pack, >>A lot of >>activity. I mean, reinvent and some it's out. There are really popular. Give us an update on what's happening. >>Thank you. Thank you for the question, John. I think it's extremely exciting, especially in today's context, that we are seeing so much activities, especially in the education technology sector. One of the challenges that we saw from our education technology customers is that they are always looking for help and support in many off the innovation that they're trying to develop the second area off observation that we had waas, that they are always alone with very limited resources, and they usually do not know where to look for in terms, off support and in terms off who they can reach out to. From a community standpoint, that is actually how we started and developed this program called A W s. At START. It is a program specifically for education technology companies that are targeting delivering innovative education solutions for the education sector. And we bring specific benefits to these education technology companies when they join the program. Aws ed start. Yeah, three specific areas. First one is that we support them with technical support, which is really, really key trying to help them navigate in the various ranges off A W S services that allows them to develop innovative services. The second area is leaking them and building a community off like minded education technology founders and linking them also to investors and VCs and lastly, off course, in supporting innovation. We support them with a bit off AWS cop credits promotional credits for them so that they can go on experiment and develop innovations for their customers. >>That's great stuff. And I want to get into that program a little further because I think that's a great example of kind of benefits AWS provides actually free credits or no one is gonna turn away free credits. We'll take the free credits all the time all day long, but really it's about the innovation. Um, Jean, I want to get your thoughts. How would solve education? Born? What problems were you solving? What made you start this company and tell us your story? >>Thank you so much for the question. So, actually, my co founder was invited to speak at an African innovation forum a couple of years back on the topic that he was sharing with. How can Africa skip over the industrialization face and go direct to the knowledge economy? Onda, the discussion went towards in orderto have access to the knowledge economy, unique knowledge. And how do you get knowledge Well through education. So that's when everybody in the conference was a bit stuck right on the advice waas. In order to scale first, we need to figure out a way to not well, you know, engaging the government and schools and teachers, but not depend on them for the successful education initiated. So and that's was what pain walk away from the conference. And when we met in in Jakarta, we started talking about that also. So while I'm Singaporean, I worked in many developing countries on the problem that we're trying to solve this. It might be shocking to you, but UNESCO recently published over 600 million Children and you are not learning on. That is a big number globally right on out of all the SDG per se from U N. Education. And perhaps I'm biased because I'm a computer engineer. But I see that education is the only one that can be solved by transforming bites. But since the other stg is like, you know, poverty or hunger, right, actually require big amount of logistic coordination and so on. So we saw a very, um, interesting trend with mobile phones, particularly smartphones, becoming more and more ubiquitous. And with that, we saw a very, uh, interesting. Fortunately for us to disseminate education through about technology. So we in self education elevate people out of poverty, true, providing education and employment opportunities live urging on tech. And we our vision is to enable people to empower themselves. And what we do is that we do an open platform that provides everyone effected education. >>You could How about your company? What problem you're you saw And how did it all get started? Tell us your vision. >>Thanks, John. Well, look, it all started. We have a joke. One of the co founder, Matthew, had a has a child with severe learning disorder and dyslexia, and he made a joke one day about having another one of them that would support those those kids on Duh. I took the joke seriously, So we're starting sitting down and, you know, trying to figure out how we could make this happen. Um, so it turns out that the dyslexia is the most common learning disorder in the world, with an estimated 10 to 20% off the worldwide population with the disorder between context between 750 million, up to 1.5 billion individual. With that learning disorder on DSO, where we where we sort of try and tackle. The problem is that we've identified that there's two key things for Children with dyslexia. The first one is that knowing that it is dislikes. Yeah, many being assessed. And the second is so what? What do we do about it? And so given or expertise in data science and and I, we clearly saw, unfortunately off, sort of building something that could assess individual Children and adults with dyslexia. The big problem with the assessment is that it's very expensive. We've met parents in the U. S. Specifically who paid up to 6000 U. S. Dollars for for diagnosis within educational psychologist. On the other side, we have parents who wait 12 months before having a spot. Eso What we so clearly is that the observable symptom of dyslexia are reading and everyone has a smartphone and you're smart. Smartphone is actually really good to record your voice. Eso We started collecting order recording from Children and adults who have been diagnosed with dyslexia, and we then trying a model to recognize the likelihood of this lecture by analyzing audio recording. So in theory, it's like diagnosed dyslexic, helping other undiagnosed, dyslexic being being diagnosed. So we have now an algorithm that can take about 10 minutes, which require no priors. Training cost $20. Andi, anyone can use it. Thio assess someone's likelihood off dyslexia. >>You know, this is the kind of thing that really changes the game because you also have learning progressions that air nonlinear and different. You've got YouTube. You got videos, you have knowledge bases, you've got community. Vincent mentioned that Johnny and you mentioned, you know making the bits driver and changing technology. So Jeannine and Hugo, please take a minute to explain, Okay? You got the idea. You're kicking the tires. You're putting it together. Now you gotta actually start writing code >>for us. We know education technology is not you. Right? Um, education games about you. But before we even started, we look at what's available, and we quickly realize that the digital divide is very real. Most technology out there first are not designed for really low and devices and also not designed for people who do not have Internet at hope so way. So with just that assessment, we quickly realized we need toe do something about on board, but something that that that problem is one eyes just one part of the whole puzzle. There's two other very important things. One is advocacy. Can we prove that we can teach through mobile devices, And then the second thing is motivation it again. It's also really obvious, but and people might think that, you know, uh, marginalized communities are super motivated to learn. Well, I wouldn't say that they are not motivated, but just like all of us behavioral changes really hard right. I would love to work out every day, but, you know, I don't really get identity do that. So how do we, um, use technology to and, um, you know, to induce that behavioral change so that date, so that we can help support the motivation to learn. So those are the different things that we >>welcome? >>Yeah. And then the motivated community even more impactful because then once the flywheel gets going and it's powerful, Hugo, your reaction to you know, you got the idea you got, You got the vision you're starting to put. Take one step in front of the other. You got a W s. Take us through the progression, understand the startup. >>Yeah, sure. I mean, what Jane said is very likely Thio what we're trying to do. But for us, there's there's free key things that in order for us to be successful and help as much people as we can, that is free things. The first one is reliability. The second one is accessibility, and the other one is affordability. Eso the reliability means that we have been doing a lot of work in the scientific approach as to how we're going to make this work. And so we have. We have a couple of scientific publications on Do we have to collect data and, you know, sort of published this into I conferences and things like that. So make sure that we have scientific evidence behind us that that support us. And so what that means that we had Thio have a large amount of data >>on and >>put this to work right on the other side. The accessibility and affordability means that, Julian said. You know it needs to be on the cloud because if it's on the cloud, it's accessible for anyone with any device with an Internet connection, which is, you know, covering most of the globe, it's it's a good start on DSO the clock. The cloud obviously allow us to deliver the same experience in the same value to clients and and parent and teacher and allied health professionals around the world. Andi. That's why you know, it's it's been amazing to to be able to use the technology on the AI side as well. Obviously there is ah lot of benefit off being able to leverage the computational power off off the cloud to to make better, argue with them and better training. >>We're gonna come back to both of you on the I question. I think that's super important. Benson. I want to come back to you, though, because in Asia Pacific and that side of the world, um, you still have the old guard, the incumbents around education and learning. But there is great penetration with mobile and broadband. You have great trends as a tailwind for Amazon and these kinds of opportunity with Head Start. What trends are you seeing that are now favoring you? Because with co vid, you know the world is almost kind of like been a line in the sand is before covert and after co vid. There's more demand for learning and education and community now than ever before, not just for education, the geopolitical landscape, everything around the younger generation. There's, um, or channels more data, the more engagement. How >>are you >>looking at this? What's your vision of these trends? Can you share your thoughts on how that's impacting learning and teaching? >>So there are three things that I want to quickly touch on number one. I think government are beginning to recognize that they really need to change the way they approach solving social and economic problems. The pandemic has certainly calls into question that if you do not have a digital strategy, you can't You can find a better time, uh, to now develop and not just developed a digital strategy, but actually to put it in place. And so government are shifting very, very quickly into the cloud and adopting digital strategy and use digital strategy to address some of the key problems that they are facing. And they have to solve them in a very short period of time. Right? We will talk about speed, three agility off the cloud. That's why the cloud is so powerful for government to adult. The second thing is that we saw a lot of schools closed down across the world. UNESCO reported what 1.5 billion students out of schools. So how then do you continue teaching and learning when you don't have physical classroom open? And that's where education, technology companies and, you know, heroes like Janine's Company and others there's so many of them around our ableto come forward and offer their services and help schools go online run classrooms online continue to allow teaching and learning, you know, online and and this has really benefited the overall education system. The third thing that is happening is that I think tertiary education and maybe even catch off education model will have to change. And they recognize that, you know, again, it goes back to the digital strategy that they got to have a clear digital strategy. And the education technology companies like, what? Who we have here today, just the great partners that the education system need to look at to help them solve some of these problems and get toe addressing giving a solution very, very quickly. >>Well, I know you're being kind of polite to the old guard, but I'm not that polite. I'll just say it. There's some old technology out there and Jenny and you go, You're young enough not to know what I t means because you're born in the cloud. So that's good for you. I remember what I t is like. In fact, there's a There's a joke here in the United States that with everyone at home, the teachers have turned into the I T department, meaning they're helping the parents and the kids figure out how to go on mute and how toe configure a network adds just translation. If they're routers, don't work real problems. I mean, this was technology. Schools were operating with low tech zooms out there. You've got video conferencing, you've got all kinds of things. But now there's all that support that's involved. And so what's happening is it's highlighting the real problems of the institutional technology. So, Vincent, I'll start with you. Um, this is a big problem. So cloud solves that one. You guys have pretty much helped. I t do things that they don't want to do any more by automation. This >>is an >>opportunity not necessary. There's a problem today, but it's an opportunity tomorrow. You just quickly talk about how you see the cloud helping all this manual training and learning new tools. >>We are all now living in a cloud empowered economy. Whether we like it or not, we are touching and using services. There are powered by the cloud, and a lot of them are powered by the AWS cloud. But we don't know about it. A lot of people just don't know, right Whether you are watching Netflix, um Well, in the old days you're buying tickets and and booking hotels on Expedia or now you're actually playing games on epic entertainment, you know, playing fortnight and all those kind of games you're already using and a consumer off the cloud. And so one of the big ideas that we have is we really want to educate and create awareness off club computing for every single person. If it can be used for innovation and to bring about benefits to society, that is a common knowledge that everyone needs to happen. So the first big idea is want to make sure that everyone actually is educated on club literacy? The second thing is, for those who have not embarked on a clear cloud strategy, this is the time. Don't wait for for another pandemic toe happen because you wanna be ready. You want to be prepared for the unknown, which is what a lot of people are faced with, and you want to get ahead of the curve and so education training yourself, getting some learning done, and that's really very, very important as the next step to prepare yourself toe face the uncertainty and having programs like AWS EC start actually helps toe empower and catalyzed innovation in the education industry that our two founders have actually demonstrated. So back to you Join. >>Congratulations on the head. Start. We'll get into that real quickly. Uh, head start. But let's first get the born in the cloud generation, Janine. And you go, You guys were competing. You gotta get your APS out there. You gotta get your solutions. You're born in the cloud. You have to go compete with the existing solutions. How >>do you >>view that? What's your strategy? What's your mindset? Janine will start with you. >>So for us, way are very aware that we're solving a problem that has never been solved, right? If not, we wouldn't have so many people who are not learning. So So? So this is a very big problem. And being able to liberate on cloud technology means that we're able to just focus on what we do best. Right? How do we make sure that learning is sufficient and learning is, um, effective? And how do we keep people motivated and all those sorts of great things, um, leveraging on game mechanics, social network and incentives. And then while we do that on the outside way, can just put almost out solved everything to AWS cloud technology to help us not worry about that. And you were absolutely right. The pandemic actually woke up a lot of people and hands organizations like myself. We start to get queries from governments on brother, even big NGOs on, you know, because before cove it, we had to really do our best to convince them until our troops are dry and way, appreciate this opportunity and and also we want to help people realized that in order to buy, adopting either blended approach are a adopting technology means that you can do mass customization off learning as well. And that's what could what we could do to really push learning to the next level. So and there are a few other creative things that we've done with governments, for example, with the government off East Java on top of just using the education platform as it is andare education platform, which is education game Donald Civilization. Um, they have added in a module that teaches Cove it because, you know, there's health care system is really under a lot of strain there, right and adding this component in and the most popular um mitigate in that component is this This'll game called hopes or not? And it teaches people to identify what's fake news and what's real news. And that really went very popular and very well in that region off 25 million people. So tech became not only just boring school subjects, but it can be used to teach many different things. And following that project, we are working with the federal government off Indonesia to talk about anti something and even a very difficult topic, like sex education as well. >>Yeah, and the learning is nonlinear, horizontally scalable, its network graft so you can learn share about news. And this is contextual data is not just learning. It's everything is not like, you know, linear learning. It's a whole nother ballgame, Hugo. Um, your competitive strategy. You're out there now. You got the covert world. How are you competing? How is Amazon helping you? >>Absolutely. John, look, this is an interesting one, because the current competitors that we have, uh, educational psychologist, they're not a tech, So I wouldn't say that we're competing against a competitive per se. I would say that we're competing against the old way of doing things. The challenge for us is to, um, empower people to be comfortable. We've having a machine, you know, analyzing your kids or your recording and telling you if it's likely to be dislikes. Yeah, and in this concept, obviously, is very new. You know, we can see this in other industry with, you know, you have the app that stand Ford created to diagnose skin cancer by taking a photo of your skin. It's being done in different industry. Eso The biggest challenge for us is really about the old way of doing things. What's been really interesting for us is that, you know, education is lifelong, you know, you have a big part in school, but when you're an adult, you learn on Did you know we've been doing some very interesting work with the Justice Department where, you know, we look at inmate and you know, often when people go to jail, they have, you know, some literacy difficulty, and so we've been doing some very interesting working in this field. We're also doing some very interesting work with HR and company who want to understand their staff and put management in place so that every single person in the company are empowered to do their job and and and, you know, achieve success. So, you know, we're not competing against attack. And often when we talk to other ethnic company, we come before you know, we don't provide a learning solution. We provide a assessment solution on e assessment solution. So, really, John, what we're competing against is an old way of doing things. >>And that's exactly why clouds so successful. You change the economics, you're actually a net new benefit. And I think the cloud gives you speed and you're only challenges getting the word out because the economics air just game changing. Right, So that's how Amazon does so well, um, by the way, you could take all our recordings from the Cube, interviews all my interviews and let me know how ideo Okay, so, um, got all the got all the voice recordings from my interview. I'm sure the test will come back challenging. So take a look at that e. I wanna come back to you. But I wanna ask the two founders real quick for the folks watching. Okay on Dhere about Amazon. They know the history. They know the startups that started on Amazon that became unicorns that went public. I mean, just a long list of successes born in the cloud You get big pay when you're successful. Love that business model. But for the folks watching that were in the virtual garages, air in their houses, innovating and building out new ideas. What does Ed start mean for them? How does it work? Would you would recommend it on what are some of the learnings that you have from work with Head Start? >>But our relationship X s start is almost not like client supplier relationship. It's almost like business partners. So they not only help us with protect their providing the technology, but on top of that, they have their system architect to work with my tech team. And they have, you know, open technical hours for us to interact. And on top of that, they do many other things, like building a community where, you know, people like me and Google can meet and also other opportunities, like getting out the word out there. Right. As you know, all of their, uh, startups run on a very thin budget. So how do we not pour millions of dollars into getting out without there is another big benefit as well. So, um definitely very much recommend that start. And I think another big thing is this, right? Uh, what we know now that we have covert and we have demand coming from all over the place, including, like, even a lot of interest, Ally from the government off Gambia, you know? So how do we quickly deploy our technology right there? Or how do we deploy our technology from the the people who are demanding our solution in Nigeria? Right. With technology that is almost frameless. >>Yeah. The great enabling technology ecosystem to support you. And they got the region's too. So the region's do help. I love we call them Cube Region because we're on Amazon. We have our cloud, Hugo, um, and start your observations, experience and learnings from working with aws. >>Absolutely. Look, this is a lot to say, so I'll try and making sure for anyone, but but also for us on me personally, also as an individual and as a founder, it's really been a 365 sort of support. So like Johnny mentioned, there's the community where you can connect with existing entrepreneur you can connect with expert in different industry. You can ask technical expert and and have ah, you know office our every week. Like you said Jenny, with your tech team talking to cloud architect just to unlock any problem that you may have on day and you know, on the business side I would add something which for us has been really useful is the fact that when we when we've approached government being able to say that we have the support off AWS and that we work with them to establish data integrity, making sure everything is properly secured and all that sort of thing has been really helpful in terms off, moving forward with discussion with potential plant and and government as well. So there's also the business aspect side of things where when people see you, there's a perceived value that you know, your your entourage is smart people and and people who are capable of doing great things. So that's been also really >>helpful, you know, that's a great point. The APP SEC review process, as you do deals is a lot easier. When here on AWS. Vincent were a little bit over time with a great, great great panel here. Close us out. Share with us. What's next for you guys? You got a great startup ecosystem. You're doing some great work out there and education as well. Healthcare. Um, how's your world going on? Take a minute, Thio. Explain what's going on in your world, >>John, I'm part of the public sector Team Worldwide in AWS. We have very clear mission statements on by the first is you know, we want to bring about destructive innovation and the AWS Cloud is really the platform where so many off our techs, whether it's a text, healthtech golf text, all those who are developing solutions to help our governments and our education institutions or health care institutions to really be better at what they do, we want to bring about those disruptive innovations to the market as fast as possible. It's just an honor on a privilege for us to be working. And why is that important? It's because it's linked to our second mission, which is to really make the world a better place to really deliver. Heck, the kind of work that Hugo and Janina doing. You know, we cannot do it by ourselves. We need specialists and really people with brilliant ideas and think big vision to be able to carry out what they are doing. And so we're just honored and privileged to be part off their work And in delivering this impact to society, >>the expansion of AWS out in your area has been phenomenal growth. I've been saying to Teresa Carlson, Andy Jassy in the folks that aws for many, many years, that when you move fast with innovation, the public sector and the private partnerships come together. You're starting to see that blending. And you've got some great founders here, uh, making a social impact, transforming, teaching and learning. So congratulations, Janine and Hugo. Thank you for sharing your story on the Cube. Thanks for joining. >>Thank you. Thank >>you, John. >>I'm John Furry with the Cube. Virtual were remote. We're not in person this year because of the pandemic. You're watching a divest Public sector online summit. Thank you for watching

>>From around the globe. It's the cube presenting, accelerating automation with dev net brought to you by Cisco and welcome back to the cubes coverage. Just to keep virtuals coverage of dev net create virtual. We're not face to face the cubes been there with dev net and dev net create. Since the beginning, dev net create was really a part of the dev net community. Looking out at the external market outside of Cisco, which essentially is the cloud native world, which is going mainstream. We've got a great guest here. Who's who's been the company's been on the cube. Many times. We've been talking to them recently acquired by Cisco thousand eyes. We have Joe Vaccaro, his beast vice president of product, Joe, welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. Great. And thanks for having me. You have the keys to the kingdom. You are the vice president of product, which means you get to look inside and you get to look outside, figure it all out, uh, make everything run on thousand eyes. >>You guys have been finding common language across multiple layers of network intelligence, external services. This is the heart of what we're seeing in innovation with multi-cloud microservices, cloud native. This is really a hot area it's converged in multiple theaters and technology super important. So I want to get into that with you. But first thousand eyes was recently acquired by Cisco, um, big acquisition, uh, super important, the new CEO of Cisco, very clear API, everything we're seeing that come out. That's a big theme at dev net create the ecosystem of Cisco is going outside their own, you know, their, their walls outside of the Cisco network operators, network engineers. We're talking to developers talking programmability. This is the big theme. What's it like at Cisco? Tell us, honestly, the COVID hits. You get acquired by Cisco. Tell us what's happening. >>Yeah, surely been an exciting six months, 4,000 eyes on the entire team and our customers as we all kind of shifted to the new normal of working from home. And I think, you know, that change alone really kind of amplified. Even some of the fundamental beliefs that we have as a company that you know, cloud is becoming the new data center or customers that Indra internet has become the new network and the new enterprise network backbone. And that SAS has really become the new application stack. And as you think about these last six months, those fundamental truths have never been more evident as we rely upon the cloud to be able to, to work as we rely upon our own home networks and the internet in order to be productive. And as we access more sized applications on a daily basis. And as you think about those fundamental truths, what's common across all of them is that you rely upon them now more than ever, not only to run your business, but to enable your employees to be productive, but you don't own them. And if you don't own them, then you lack the ability in a traditional way to be able to understand that digital experience. And I think that's ultimately what, what thousand eyes is trying to solve for. And I think it's really being amplified in really these last six months. >>Talk about the COVID dynamic because I think it highlighted and certainly accelerated digital transformation, but specifically exposes opportunities, challenges, weaknesses, I've talked to many CXOs CSOs. Uh, sec security is huge. Um, the home of the conference and book talk track we'll get to in a second, but it exposes what's worth doubling down on what to abandoned from a project standpoint, as people start to look at their priorities, they're going, Hey, we got to have a connected experience. We got to have security. People are working at home. No one has VPNs at home VPNs or passe. Maybe it's SD when maybe it's something else they're on a backbone. They're connecting to the internet, a lot of different diversity in connections. At the same time, you got a ton of modern apps running off for these networks. This is a huge issue. COVID is exposed this at scale. What's your view on this? And what does thousand nights thinking about this? >>You know, if you think about the kind of legacy application delivery, it went from largely users in an office connected over, say a dedicated corporate network, largely to traditional say internal hosted applications. And that was a early, simple, uh, connectivity bath. And as you mentioned, we've seen amplifications in terms of the diversity from the users. So users are not in the office. Now they're connected in distributed disparate locations that are dynamically changing. And you think that how they're getting to that application, they're going across a really complex service chain of different network services that are working together across as public internet backbone. We'll totally to land them on an application. And then those applications themselves are becoming now, as you mentioned, distributed largely based upon a microservices architecture and increasing barrel independence upon third party sample size applications to fulfill say key functions of that application. >>Those three things together ultimately are creating that level of complex service chain. It really makes it difficult to understand the digital experience and ultimately the it organization it's really chartered with not just delivering the infrastructure, but delivering the right experience. And yet then have a way to be able to see, to gain that visibility, that experience, you know, to measure it and understand, and to provide that intelligence and then ultimately to act on it and be able to ensure that your employees, as well as your customers are getting the right overall, um, approach to being able to leverage those assets. >>It's funny, you know, as you're getting to some of these high-scale environments, a lot of these concepts are converging. You know, we had terms like automation self-healing networks. Um, you mentioned microservices earlier, you mentioned data out of the clouds, the new data center, uh, or when's the new land. However, we're going to look at it. It's a whole different architecture. So I want to get your thoughts on, on the automation piece of networking and internet outages, for instance, um, because when you, you know, there's so many outages going up and down, it is like, uh, catching, looking for a needle in a haystack, right. So, um, we've had this conversation with you guys on cube before. How does automation occur when you guys look at those kinds of things what's important to look at? Can you comment on and react to, you know, the internet outages and how you find resolve those? >>Yeah. It's um, it was really great. And as you mentioned, automation really in a place that a key, when you think about the, just a broad problem that it is trying to drive and, you know, from our lens, we look at it in really three ways. Your first off is you have to be able to gain the level of visibility from where it matters and be able to, to test and be able to provide that level of active measurements across the, the type of ways you want to be able to inspect the network. But then also from the right vantage points, you want to inspect it. But what we talked about right aside, you know, data, um, alone, doesn't solve that problem. As you mentioned, that needle in the haystack, you know, data just provides the raw metrics that are screaming across the screen, and you have to then enable that data to provide meeting. >>You need to enable that data to become intelligent. And that intelligence comes through the automation of being able to process that data very quickly. They'll allow you to be able to see the unseen, allow you to be able to quickly understand the issues that are happening across this digital supply chain to identify issues that are even happening outside of your own control across the public internet. And then the last step of automation really comes in the form of the action, right? How do you enable that intelligence to be put, to use? How do you enable that intelligence to then drive across the rest of your it workflow as well as be able to be used as a signaling engine, to be able to then make the fundamental changes back to the network fabric, whether that is a dressing you're modifying your BGB pairing, that we see happen within our customers using thousand eyes data, be able to route around major internet outages that we've seen over the past six months, or to be able to then use that data, to be able to optimize the ultimate experience that they're delivering to both our customers, as well as our employees, >>Classic policy based activities take into a whole nother level. I got to get your thoughts on the employees working at home. Okay. Because, um, you know, most it people like, Oh yeah, we're going to forecast in cases of disruption or a hurricane or a flood or arcane Sandy, but now with COVID, everyone's working at home. So who would have forecasted a hundred percent, um, you know, work from home, which puts a lot of pressure on him, everything. So I got to ask you, now that employees are working at home, how do you tie network visibility to the actual user experience? >>Yeah, that's a great question. As you know, we saw it within our own customer base, you know, when COVID head and we saw this rise of work from home, it teams were really scrambling and said, okay, I have to light up this, say VPN infrastructure, or I need to now be able to support my users in a work from home situation where I don't control the corporate network. In essence, now you have naturally thousands. Every employee is acting across their own corporate network and people were then using thousand eyes in different ways to be able to monitor their CTP and infrastructure across, uh, back into the corporate network, as well as in using our thousand eyes endpoint point agents that runs on a local, a user's laptop or machine in their home to help you to be able to gain that visibility down to that last mile of connectivity. >>Because when a user calls up support and says, I'm having trouble say accessing my application, whether that's Salesforce or something else, what ultimately might be causing that issue might not necessarily be a Salesforce issue, right? It could be the device in the device performance in terms of CPU, memory utilization. It could be the wifi and the signal quality within your wifi network. It could be your access point. It could be your raw, local home router. It can be your local ISP. It could be the path that you're taking ultimately to your corporate network or that application. There's so many places that could go wrong that are now difficult to be able to see, unless you have the ability to see comprehensively from the user to the application, and to be able to understand that full end to end path, >>You know, it teams have also been disrupted. They've been on offsite prop off property as well, but you got the cloud. How is your technology help the it teams? Can you give some examples there? Um, >>Yeah, a great way is, you know, how people use thousand eyes as part of that data sharing ecosystem. Again, that notion of how do you go from visibility to intelligence to action and where in the past you might be able as an it administrator to walk over to their network team and say, Hey, can you take a look at what I'm seeing now? That's no longer available. So how do you be able to work efficiently as the Nike organization? You know, we think a thousand eyes and how our customers are using us a thousand times becomes a common operating language and allows them to be able to analyze across from the application down into the underlying infrastructure, through those different layers of the network what's happening. And where do you need to focus your attention? And then furthermore, within thousand eyes in terms of a need, enabling that data sharing ecosystem, leveraging our Sherlyn capability really gives them the ability to say, you know, what, here's what I'm seeing and be able to send that to anybody within the it organization. But it goes even further and many times in recent times, as well as over the course of people using thousand eyes, they take those share links and actually send them to their external providers because they're not just looking to resolve issues within their own it organization. They're having worked collaboratively with the different ESPs that they're pairing with, with their cloud providers that they're appearing, uh, they're leveraging, or the SAS applications that are part of that core dependency of how they deliver their experience. >>I've got to ask you the question we think about levels of visibility and making the lives easier for it. Teams. Um, you see a lot of benefits with thousand eyes. You pointed out a few of them. It's got to ask you the question. So if I'm an it person I'm in the trenches, are you guys have, uh, an aspirin or a vitamin or both? Can you give an example because it does a lot of pain point out there. So yeah. Give me a, a cup, a couple Advils and aspirins, but also you're an enabler. The new things are evolving. You pointed out some use case. Talk about the difference between where you're helping people pain points and also enabling them be successful for it teams. >>Yeah, that's a great analogy. You're thinking it, like you said, it definitely sits on both sides of that spectrum, you know, thousand eyes is the trusted tool, the source of truth for it. Organizations when issues are happening as their alarm bells are ringing, as they are generating the, um, the different, uh, on call, uh, to be able to jump into a worm situation thousand eyes is that trusted source of truth. Allow them to focus, to be able to resolve the issue in the heat of the moment. But that was a nice also when we think about baselining, your experience, what's important is not understanding that experience at that moment in time, but also how that's deviated over time. And so by leveraging thousand eyes on a continuous basis, it gives you the ability to see the history of that experience, to understand how your network is changing is as you mentioned, networks are constantly evolving, right? >>The internet itself is constantly changing. It's an organic system, and you need to be able to understand not only what are the metrics that are moving out of your bounds, but then what is potentially the cause of that as a network has evolved. And then furthermore, you can be begin to use that, as you mentioned, in terms of your vitamin type event analogy, you'll be able to understand the health of your system over time on a baseline basis so that you can begin to, uh, be able to ensure its success in a great way to really kind of bring that to light as people using say, thousand eyes, as part of saying se land base for allow where you're looking to say benchmark and gain confidence as you look to scale out and either, you know, benchmarking different ESPs within that, I feel like connectivity for as you look to ensure a level of success with a single branch to give you that competence, to then scale out to the rest of your organization. >>That's great insights. The classic financial model ROI got baseline and upside, right? You got handle the baseline as you pointed out, and the upside music experience connectivity, you know, application performance, which drives revenue, et cetera. So great point. Great insight, Joe. Thank you so much for that insight. It's got a final question for you. I want to just riff a little bit with you on the industry. A lot of us have been having debates about automation. I mean, who doesn't, who doesn't love automation, automation's awesome, right? Automate things. But as the trend starts going on, as everything is a service or X, a S as it's called, certainly Cisco's going down that road. Talk about your view about the difference between automation and everything is a service because at the end of the day, everything will be a service, but without automation, you really can't have services, right? So, you know, automation, automation, automation, great, great drum to bang all day long, but then also you got the same business side saying as a service, as a service, pushing that into the products, it means not trivial. Talk about, talk about how you look at automation and everything as a, and the relationship and interplay between those two concepts. >>Yeah. Ultimately I think about in terms of what is the problem that the business is trying to solve in ultimately, what is the value that they're trying to face? And in many ways, right, they're being exploded with increase of data that needs, they need to be able to not only process and gather, but then be able to then make use of, and then from that, as we mentioned, once you've processed that data and you'd say, gather the insights from it. You need to be able to then act on that data. And automation plays a key role of allowing you to be able to then put that through your workflow. Because again, as that, it experience becomes even more complex as more and more services get put into that digital supply chain. As you adopt say increased complexity within your infrastructure, by moving to a multicloud architecture where you look to increase the number of say, network services that you're leveraging across that digital experience. >>Ultimately you need the level of automation. You'd be able to see outside of your own vantage point. You need to be able to look at the problem from as broad of a, a broad of a way as possible. And, you know, data and automation allows you to be able to do what is fundamentally difficult to do from a very narrow point of view, in terms of the visibility you gather intelligence you generate, and then ultimately, how do you act on that data as quick as possible to be able to provide the value of what you're looking, salt >>Feature it's under the hood, the feature of everything, because the service is automation, data, machine learning, all the goodness and the software. I mean, that's really kind of what we're talking about here. Isn't it a final question for you as we wrap up, uh, dev net create really, again, is going beyond Cisco's dev net community going into the industry ecosystem where developers are there. Um, these are folks that want infrastructure as code. They want network as code. So network programmability, huge topic. We've been having that conversation, uh, with Cisco and others throughout the industry for the past three years. What's your message to developers out there that are watching this who say, Hey, I just want to develop code. Like I want, you know, you guys got that. That was nice. Thanks so much. You know, you take care of that. I just want to write code. What's your message to those folks out there who want to tap some of these new services, these new automation, these new capabilities, what's your message. >>And ultimately, I think, you know, when you look at thousand eyes, um, you know, from a product perspective, we, you know, we try to build our product in an API first model to allow you to be able to then shift left of how you think about that overall experience. And from a developer standpoint, you know, what I'd say is, is that while you're developing in your silo, you're going to be part of a larger ultimate system. In your experience you deliver within your application is now going to be dependent upon not only the infrastructure it's running upon, but the network it's connected to. And then ultimately the user in the sense of that user and by leveraging a thousand eyes, being able to then integrate thousand 18 to how you think closely on that experience, that's going to help ensure that ultimately the application experience that the developers looking to deliver meets that objective. And I think what I would say is, you know, while you need to focus on your, uh, your role as a developer, having the understanding of how you fit into the larger ecosystem and what the reality of how your users will access that application is critical. >>Awesome, Joe, thank you so much. Again, trust is everything letting people understand that what's going on underneath is going to be viable and capable. You guys got a great product and congratulations on the acquisition that Cisco made of your company. And we've been following you guys for a long time and a great technology chops, great market traction, congratulations to everyone, 1,009. Thanks for coming on sharing. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Do you have a car, a vice president of product here with thousand eyes. Now, part of Cisco I'm John farrier, host of the cube cube virtual for dev net. Create virtual. Thanks for watching.