(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone, from Palo Alto, Lisa Martin here. This is The Cube's coverage of CloudNativeSecurityCon, the inaugural event. I'm here with John Furrier in studio. In Boston, Dave Vellante joins us, and our guest, Liz Rice, one of our alumni, is joining us from Seattle. Great to have everyone here. Liz is the Chief Open Source officer at Isovalent. She's also the Emeritus Chair Technical Oversight Committee at CNCF, and a co-chair of this new event. Everyone, welcome Liz. Great to have you back on theCUBE. Thanks so much for joining us today. >> Thanks so much for having me, pleasure. >> So CloudNativeSecurityCon. This is the inaugural event, Liz, this used to be part of KubeCon, it's now its own event in its first year. Talk to us about the importance of having it as its own event from a security perspective, what's going on? Give us your opinions there. >> Yeah, I think security was becoming so- at such an important part of the conversation at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, and the TAG security, who were organizing the co-located Cloud Native Security Day which then turned into a two day event. They were doing this amazing job, and there was so much content and so much activity and so much interest that it made sense to say "Actually this could stand alone as a dedicated event and really dedicate, you know, all the time and resources of running a full conference, just thinking about cloud native security." And I think that's proven to be true. There's plenty of really interesting talks that we're going to see. Things like a capture the flag. There's all sorts of really good things going on this week. >> Liz, great to see you, and Dave, great to see you in Boston Lisa, great intro. Liz, you've been a CUBE alumni. You've been a great contributor to our program, and being part of our team, kind of extracting that signal from the CNCF cloud native world KubeCon. This event really kind of to me is a watershed moment, because it highlights not only security as a standalone discussion event, but it's also synergistic with KubeCon. And, as co-chair, take us through the thought process on the sessions, the experts, it's got a practitioner vibe there. So we heard from Priyanka early on, bottoms up, developer first. You know KubeCon's shift left was big momentum. This seems to be a breakout of very focused security. Can you share the rationale and the thoughts behind how this is emerging, and how you see this developing? I know it's kind of a small event, kind of testing the waters it seems, but this is really a directional shift. Can you share your thoughts? >> Yeah I'm just, there's just so many different angles that you can consider security. You know, we are seeing a lot of conversations about supply chain security, but there's also runtime security. I'm really excited about eBPF tooling. There's also this opportunity to talk about how do we educate people about security, and how do security practitioners get involved in cloud native, and how do cloud native folks learn about the security concepts that they need to keep their deployments secure. So there's lots of different groups of people who I think maybe at a KubeCon, KubeCon is so wide, it's such a diverse range of topics. If you really just want to focus in, drill down on what do I need to do to run Kubernetes and cloud native applications securely, let's have a really focused event, and just drill down into all the different aspects of that. And I think that's great. It brings the right people together, the practitioners, the experts, the vendors to, you know, everyone can be here, and we can find each other at a smaller event. We are not spread out amongst the thousands of people that would attend a KubeCon. >> It's interesting, Dave, you know, when we were talking, you know, we're going to bring you in real quick, because AWS, which I think is the bellweather for, you know, cloud computing, has now two main shows, AWS re:Invent and re:Inforce. Security, again, broken out there. you see the classic security events, RSA, Black Hat, you know, those are the, kind of, the industry kind of mainstream security, very wide. But you're starting to see the cloud native developer first with both security and cloud native, kind of, really growing so fast. This is a major trend for a lot of the ecosystem >> You know, and you hear, when you mention those other conferences, John you hear a lot about, you know, shift left. There's a little bit of lip service there, and you, we heard today way more than lip service. I mean deep practitioner level conversations, and of course the runtime as well. Liz, you spent a lot of time obviously in your keynote on eBPF, and I wonder if you could share with the audience, you know, why you're so excited about that. What makes it a more effective tool compared to other traditional methods? I mean, it sounds like it simplifies things. You talked about instrumenting nodes versus workloads. Can you explain that a little bit more detail? >> Yeah, so with eBPF programs, we can load programs dynamically into the kernel, and we can attach them to all kinds of different events that could be happening anywhere on that virtual machine. And if you have the right knowledge about where to hook into, you can observe network events, you can observe file access events, you can observe pretty much anything that's interesting from a security perspective. And because eBPF programs are living in the kernel, there's only one kernel shared amongst all of the applications that are running on that particular machine. So you don't- you no longer have to instrument each individual application, or each individual pod. There's no more need to inject sidecars. We can apply eBPF based tooling on a per node basis, which just makes things operationally more straightforward, but it's also extremely performant. We can hook these programs into events that typically very lightweight, small programs, kind of, emitting an event, making a decision about whether to drop a packet, making a decision about whether to allow file access, things of that nature. There's super fast, there's no need to transition between kernel space and user space, which is usually quite a costly operation from performance perspective. So eBPF makes it really, you know, it's taking the security tooling, and other forms of tooling, networking and observability. We can take these tools into the kernel, and it's really efficient there. >> So Liz- >> So, if I may, one, just one quick follow up. You gave kind of a space age example (laughs) in your keynote. When, do you think a year from now we'll be able to see, sort of, real world examples in in action? How far away are we? >> Well, some of that is already pretty widely deployed. I mean, in my keynote I was talking about Cilium. Cilium is adopted by hundreds of really big scale deployments. You know, the users file is full of household names who've been using cilium. And as part of that they will be using network policies. And I showed some visualizations this morning of network policy, but again, network policy has been around, pretty much since the early days of Kubernetes. It can be quite fiddly to get it right, but there are plenty of people who are using it at scale today. And then we were also looking at some runtime security detections, seeing things like, in my example, exfiltrating the plans to the Death Star, you know, looking for suspicious executables. And again, that's a little bit, it's a bit newer, but we do have people running that in production today, proving that it really does work, and that eBPF is a scalable technology. It's, I've been fascinated by eBPF for years, and it's really amazing to see it being used in the real world now. >> So Liz, you're a maintainer on the Cilium project. Talk about the use of eBPF in the Cilium project. How is it contributing to cloud native security, and really helping to change the dials on that from an efficiency, from a performance perspective, as well as a, what's in it for me as a business perspective? >> So Cilium is probably best known as a networking plugin for Kubernetes. It, when you are running Kubernetes, you have to make a decision about some networking plugin that you're going to use. And Cilium is, it's an incubating project in the CNCF. It's the most mature of the different CNIs that's in the CNCF at the moment. As I say, very widely deployed. And right from day one, it was based on eBPF. And in fact some of the people who contribute to the eBPF platform within the kernel, are also working on the Cilium project. They've been kind of developed hand in hand for the last six, seven years. So really being able to bring some of that networking capability, it required changes in the kernel that have been put in place several years ago, so that now we can build these amazing tools for Kubernetes operators. So we are using eBPF to make the networking stack for Kubernetes and cloud native really efficient. We can bypass some of the parts of the network stack that aren't necessarily required in a cloud native deployment. We can use it to make these incredibly fast decisions about network policy. And we also have a sub-project called Tetragon, which is a newer part of the Cilium family which uses eBPF to observe these runtime events. The things like people opening a file, or changing the permissions on a file, or making a socket connection. All of these things that as a security engineer you are interested in. Who is running executables who is making network connections, who's accessing files, all of these operations are things that we can observe with Cilium Tetragon. >> I mean it's exciting. We've chatted in the past about that eBPF extended Berkeley Packet Filter, which is about the Linux kernel. And I bring that up Liz, because I think this is the trend I'm trying to understand with this event. It's, I hear bottoms up developer, developer first. It feels like it's an under the hood, infrastructure, security geek fest for practitioners, because Brian, in his keynote, mentioned BIND in reference the late Dan Kaminsky, who was, obviously found that error in BIND at the, in DNS. He mentioned DNS. There's a lot of things that's evolving at the silicone, kernel, kind of root levels of our infrastructure. This seems to be a major shift in focus and rightfully so. Is that something that you guys talk about, or is that coincidence, or am I just overthinking this point in terms of how nerdy it's getting in terms of the importance of, you know, getting down to the low level aspects of protecting everything. And as we heard also the quote was no software secure. (Liz chuckles) So that's up and down the stack of the, kind of the old model. What's your thoughts and reaction to that? >> Yeah, I mean I think a lot of folks who get into security really are interested in these kind of details. You know, you see write-ups of exploits and they, you know, they're quite often really involved, and really require understanding these very deep detailed technical levels. So a lot of us can really geek out about the details of that. The flip side of that is that as an application developer, you know, as- if you are working for a bank, working for a media company, you're writing applications, you shouldn't have to be worried about what's happening at the kernel level. This might be kind of geeky interesting stuff, but really, operationally, it should be taken care of for you. You've got your work cut out building business value in applications. So I think there's this interesting, kind of dual track going on almost, if you like, of the people who really want to get involved in those nitty gritty details, and understand how the underlying, you know, kernel level exploits maybe working. But then how do we make that really easy for people who are running clusters to, I mean like you said, nothing is ever secure, but trying to make things as secure as they can be easily, and make things visual, make things accessible, make things, make it easy to check whether or not you are compliant with whatever regulations you need to be compliant with. That kind of focus on making things usable for the platform team, for the application developers who deliver apps on the platform, that's the important (indistinct)- >> I noticed that the word expert was mentioned, I mentioned earlier with Priyanka. Was there a rationale on the 72 sessions, was there thinking around it or was it kind of like, these are urgent areas, they're obvious low hanging fruit. Was there, take us through the selection process of, or was it just, let's get 72 sessions going to get this (Liz laughs) thing moving? >> No, we did think quite carefully about how we wanted to, what the different focus areas we wanted to include. So we wanted to make sure that we were including things like governance and compliance, and that we talk about not just supply chain, which is clearly a very hot topic at the moment, but also to talk about, you know, threat detection, runtime security. And also really importantly, we wanted to have space to talk about education, to talk about how people can get involved. Because maybe when we talk about all these details, and we get really technical, maybe that's, you know, a bit scary for people who are new into the cloud native security space. We want to make sure that there are tracks and content that are accessible for newcomers to get involved. 'Cause, you know, given time they'll be just as excited about diving into those kind of kernel level details. But everybody needs a place to start, and we wanted to make sure there were conversations about how to get started in security, how to educate other members of your team in your organization about security. So hopefully there's something for everyone. >> That education piece- >> Liz, what's the- >> Oh sorry, Dave. >> What the buzz on on AI? We heard Dan talk about, you know, chatGPT, using it to automate spear phishing. There's always been this tension between security and speed to market, but CISOs are saying, "Hey we're going to a zero trust architecture and that's helping us move faster." Will, in your, is the talk on the floor, AI is going to slow us down a little bit until we figure it out? Or is it actually going to be used as an offensive defensive tool if I can use that angle? >> Yeah, I think all of the above. I actually had an interesting chat this morning. I was talking with Andy Martin from Control Plane, and we were talking about the risk of AI generated code that attempts to replicate what open source libraries already do. So rather than using an existing open source package, an organization might think, "Well, I'll just have my own version, and I'll have an AI write it for me." And I don't, you know, I'm not a lawyer so I dunno what the intellectual property implications of this will be, but imagine companies are just going, "Well you know, write me an SSL library." And that seems terrifying from a security perspective, 'cause there could be all sorts of very slightly different AI generated libraries that pick up the same vulnerabilities that exist in open source code. So, I think we're going to go through a pretty interesting period of vulnerabilities being found in AI generated code that look familiar, and we'll be thinking "Haven't we seen these vulnerabilities before? Yeah, we did, but they were previously in handcrafted code and now we'll see the same things being generated by AI." I mean, in the same way that if you look at an AI generated picture and it's got I don't know, extra fingers, or, you know, extra ears or something that, (Dave laughs) AI does make mistakes. >> So Liz, you talked about the education, the enablement, the 72 sessions, the importance of CloudNativeSecurityCon being its own event this year. What are your hopes and dreams for the practitioners to be able to learn from this event? How do you see the event as really supporting the growth, the development of the cloud native security community as a whole? >> Yeah, I think it's really important that we think of it as a Cloud Native Security community. You know, there are lots of interesting sort of hacker community security related community. Cloud native has been very community focused for a long time, and we really saw, particularly through the tag, the security tag, that there was this growing group of people who were, really wanted to work at that intersection between security and cloud native. And yeah, I think things are going really well this week so far, So I hope this is, you know, the first of many additions of this conference. I think it will also be interesting to see how the balance between a smaller, more focused event, compared to the giant KubeCon and cloud native cons. I, you know, I think there's space for both things, but whether or not there will be other smaller focus areas that want to stand alone and justify being able to stand alone as their own separate conferences, it speaks to the growth of cloud native in general that this is worthwhile doing. >> Yeah. >> It is, and what also speaks to, it reminds me of our tagline here at theCUBE, being able to extract the signal from the noise. Having this event as a standalone, being able to extract the value in it from a security perspective, that those practitioners and the community at large is going to be able to glean from these conversations is something that will be important, that we'll be keeping our eyes on. >> Absolutely. Makes sense for me, yes. >> Yeah, and I think, you know, one of the things, Lisa, that I want to get in, and if you don't mind asking Dave his thoughts, because he just did a breaking analysis on the security landscape. And Dave, you know, as Liz talking about some of these root level things, we talk about silicon advances, powering machine learning, we've been covering a lot of that. You've been covering the general security industry. We got RSA coming up reinforced with AWS, and as you see the cloud native developer first, really driving the standards of the super cloud, the multicloud, you're starting to see a lot more application focus around latency and kind of controlling that, These abstraction layer's starting to see a lot more growth. What's your take, Dave, on what Liz and- is talking about because, you know, you're analyzing the horses on the track, and there's sometimes the old guard security folks, and you got open source continuing to kick butt. And even on the ML side, we've been covering some of these foundation models, you're seeing a real technical growth in open source at all levels and, you know, you still got some proprietary machine learning stuff going on, but security's integrating all that. What's your take and your- what's your breaking analysis on the security piece here? >> I mean, to me the two biggest problems in cyber are just the lack of talent. I mean, it's just really hard to find super, you know, deep expertise and get it quickly. And I think the second is it's just, it's so many tools to deal with. And so the architecture of security is just this mosaic and a mess. That's why I'm excited about initiatives like eBPF because it does simplify things, and developers are being asked to do a lot. And I think one of the other things that's emerging is when you- when we talk about Industry 4.0, and IIoT, you- I'm seeing a lot of tools that are dedicated just to that, you know, slice of the world. And I don't think that's the right approach. I think that there needs to be a more comprehensive view. We're seeing, you know, zero trust architectures come together, and it's going to take some time, but I think that you're going to definitely see, you know, some rethinking of how to architect security. It's a game of whack-a-mole, but I think the industry is just- the technology industry is doing a really really good job of, you know, working hard to solve these problems. And I think the answer is not just another bespoke tool, it's a broader thinking around architectures and consolidating some of those tools, you know, with an end game of really addressing the problem in a more comprehensive fashion. >> Liz, in the last minute or so we have your thoughts on how automation and scale are driving some of these forcing functions around, you know, taking away the toil and the muck around developers, who just want stuff to be code, right? So infrastructure as code. Is that the dynamic here? Is this kind of like new, or is it kind of the same game, different kind of thing? (chuckles) 'Cause you're seeing a lot more machine learning, a lot more automation going on. What's, is that having an impact? What's your thoughts? >> Automation is one of the kind of fundamental underpinnings of cloud native. You know, we're expecting infrastructure to be written as code, We're expecting the platform to be defined in yaml essentially. You know, we are expecting the Kubernetes and surrounding tools to self-heal and to automatically scale and to do things like automated security. If we think about supply chain, you know, automated dependency scanning, think about runtime. Network policy is automated firewalling, if you like, for a cloud native era. So, I think it's all about making that platform predictable. Automation gives us some level of predictability, even if the underlying hardware changes or the scale changes, so that the application developers have something consistent and standardized that they can write to. And you know, at the end of the day, it's all about the business applications that run on top of this infrastructure >> Business applications and the business outcomes. Liz, we so appreciate your time talking to us about this inaugural event, CloudNativeSecurityCon 23. The value in it for those practitioners, all of the content that's going to be discussed and learned, and the growth of the community. Thank you so much, Liz, for sharing your insights with us today. >> Thanks for having me. >> For Liz Rice, John Furrier and Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube's coverage of CloudNativeSecurityCon 23. (electronic music)

>> Thank you, everyone for joining. I'm here today to talk about ingress controllers, API gateways, and service mesh on Kubernetes, three very hot topics that are also frequently confusing. So I'm Richard Li, founder/CEO of Ambassador Labs, formerly known as Datawire. We sponsor a number of popular open source projects that are part of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, including Telepresence and Ambassador, which is a Kubernetes native API gateway. And most of what I'm going to talk about today is related to our work around Ambassador. So I want to start by talking about application architecture and workflow on Kubernetes and how applications that are being built on Kubernetes really differ from how they used to be built. So when you're building applications on Kubernetes, the traditional architecture is the very famous monolith. And the monolith is a central piece of software. It's one giant thing that you build deploy, run. And the value of a monolith is it's really simple. And if you think about the monolithic development process, more importantly is that architecture is really reflected in that workflow. So with a monolith, you have a very centralized development process. You tend not to release too frequently because you have all these different development teams that are working on different features, and then you decide in advance when you're going to release that particular piece of software and everyone works towards that release train. And you have specialized teams. You have a development team, which has all your developers. You have a QA team, you have a release team, you have an operations team. So that's your typical development organization and workflow with a monolithic application. As organizations shift to microservices, they adopt a very different development paradigm. It's a decentralized development paradigm where you have lots of different independent teams that are simultaneously working on different parts of this application, and those application components are really shipped as independent services. And so you really have a continuous release cycle because instead of synchronizing all your teams around one particular vehicle, you have so many different release vehicles that each team is able to ship as soon as they're ready. And so we call this full cycle development because that team is really responsible not just for the coding of that microservice, but also the testing and the release and operations of that service. So this is a huge change, particularly with workflow, and there's a lot of implications for this. So I have a diagram here that just tries to visualize a little bit more the difference in organization. With the monolith, you have everyone who works on this monolith. With microservices, you have the yellow folks work on the yellow microservice and the purple folks work on the purple microservice and maybe just one person work on the orange microservice and so forth. So there's a lot more diversity around your teams and your microservices, and it lets you really adjust the granularity of your development to your specific business needs. So how do users actually access your microservices? Well, with a monolith, it's pretty straightforward. You have one big thing, so you just tell the internet, well, I have this one big thing on the internet. Make sure you send all your traffic to the big thing. But when you have microservices and you have a bunch of different microservices, how do users actually access these microservices? So the solution is an API gateway. So the API gateway consolidates all access to your microservices. So requests come from the internet. They go to your API gateway. The API gateway looks at these requests, and based on the nature of these requests, it routes them to the appropriate microservice. And because the API gateway is centralizing access to all of the microservices, it also really helps you simplify authentication, observability, routing, all these different cross-cutting concerns, because instead of implementing authentication in each of your microservices, which would be a maintenance nightmare and a security nightmare, you've put all of your authentication in your API gateway. So if you look at this world of microservices, API gateways are a really important part of your infrastructure which are really necessary, and pre-microservices, pre-Kubernetes, an API gateway, while valuable, was much more optional. So that's one of the really big things around recognizing with the microservices architecture, you really need to start thinking much more about an API gateway. The other consideration with an API gateway is around your management workflow, because as I mentioned, each team is actually responsible for their own microservice, which also means each team needs to be able to independently manage the gateway. So Team A working on that microservice needs to be able to tell the API gateway, this is how I want you to route requests to my microservice, and the purple team needs to be able to say something different for how purple requests get routed to the purple microservice. So that's also a really important consideration as you think about API gateways and how it fits in your architecture, because it's not just about your architecture, it's also about your workflow. So let me talk about API gateways on Kubernetes. I'm going to start by talking about ingress. So ingress is the process of getting traffic from the internet to services inside the cluster. Kubernetes, from an architectural perspective, it actually has a requirement that all the different pods in a Kubernetes cluster needs to communicate with each other. And as a consequence, what Kubernetes does is it creates its own private network space for all these pods, and each pod gets its own IP address. So this makes things very, very simple for interpod communication. Kubernetes, on the other hand, does not say very much around how traffic should actually get into the cluster. So there's a lot of detail around how traffic actually, once it's in the cluster, how you route it around the cluster, and it's very opinionated about how this works, but getting traffic into the cluster, there's a lot of different options and there's multiple strategies. There's Pod IP, there's Ingress, there's LoadBalancer resources, there's NodePort. I'm not going to go into exhaustive detail on all these different options, and I'm going to just talk about the most common approach that most organizations take today. So the most common strategy for routing is coupling an external load balancer with an ingress controller. And so an external load balancer can be a hardware load balancer. It can be a virtual machine. It can be a cloud load balancer. But the key requirement for an external load balancer is to be able to attach a stable IP address so that you can actually map a domain name and DNS to that particular external load balancer, and that external load balancer usually, but not always, will then route traffic and pass that traffic straight through to your ingress controller. And then your ingress controller takes that traffic and then routes it internally inside Kubernetes to the various pods that are running your microservices. There are other approaches, but this is the most common approach. And the reason for this is that the alternative approaches really require each of your microservices to be exposed outside of the cluster, which causes a lot of challenges around management and deployment and maintenance that you generally want to avoid. So I've been talking about an ingress controller. What exactly is an ingress controller? So an ingress controller is an application that can process rules according to the Kubernetes ingress specification. Strangely, Kubernetes is not actually shipped with a built-in ingress controller. I say strangely because you think, well, getting traffic into a cluster is probably a pretty common requirement, and it is. It turns out that this is complex enough that there's no one size fits all ingress controller. And so there is a set of ingress rules that are part of the Kubernetes ingress specification that specify how traffic gets routed into the cluster, and then you need a proxy that can actually route this traffic to these different pods. And so an ingress controller really translates between the Kubernetes configuration and the proxy configuration, and common proxies for ingress controllers include HAProxy, Envoy Proxy, or NGINX. So let me talk a little bit more about these common proxies. So all these proxies, and there are many other proxies. I'm just highlighting what I consider to be probably the three most well-established proxies, HAProxy, NGINX, and Envoy Proxy. So HAProxy is managed by HAProxy Technologies. Started in 2001. The HAProxy organization actually creates an ingress controller. And before they created an ingress controller, there was an open source project called Voyager which built an ingress controller on HAProxy. NGINX, managed by NGINX, Inc., subsequently acquired by F5. Also open source. Started a little bit later, the proxy, in 2004. And there's the Nginx-ingress, which is a community project. That's the most popular. As well as the Nginx, Inc. kubernetes-ingress project, which is maintained by the company. This is a common source of confusion because sometimes people will think that they're using the NGINX ingress controller, and it's not clear if they're using this commercially supported version or this open source version. And they actually, although they have very similar names, they actually have different functionality. Finally, Envoy Proxy, the newest entrant to the proxy market, originally developed by engineers at Lyft, the ride sharing company. They subsequently donated it to the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. Envoy has become probably the most popular cloud native proxy. It's used by Ambassador, the API gateway. It's used in the Istio service mesh. It's used in the VMware Contour. It's been used by Amazon in App Mesh. It's probably the most common proxy in the cloud native world. So as I mentioned, there's a lot of different options for ingress controllers. The most common is the NGINX ingress controller, not the one maintained by NGINX, Inc., but the one that's part of the Kubernetes project. Ambassador is the most popular Envoy-based option. Another common option is the Istio Gateway, which is directly integrated with the Istio mesh, and that's actually part of Docker Enterprise. So with all these choices around ingress controller, how do you actually decide? Well, the reality is the ingress specification's very limited. And the reason for this is that getting traffic into a cluster, there's a lot of nuance into how you want to do that, and it turns out it's very challenging to create a generic one size fits all specification because of the vast diversity of implementations and choices that are available to end users. And so you don't see ingress specifying anything around resilience. So if you want to specify a timeout or rate-limiting, it's not possible. Ingress is really limited to support for HTTP. So if you're using gRPC or web sockets, you can't use the ingress specification. Different ways of routing, authentication. The list goes on and on. And so what happens is that different ingress controllers extend the core ingress specification to support these use cases in different ways. So NGINX ingress, they actually use a combination of config maps and the ingress resources plus custom annotations that extend the ingress to really let you configure a lot of the additional extensions that is exposed in the NGINX ingress. With Ambassador, we actually use custom resource definitions, different CRDs that extend Kubernetes itself to configure Ambassador. And one of the benefits of the CRD approach is that we can create a standard schema that's actually validated by Kubernetes. So when you do a kub control apply of an Ambassador CRD, kub control can immediately validate and tell you if you're actually applying a valid schema and format for your Ambassador configuration. And as I previously mentioned, Ambassador's built on Envoy Proxy, Istio Gateway also uses CRDs. They can be used in extension of the service mesh CRDs as opposed to dedicated gateway CRDs. And again, Istio Gateway is built on Envoy Proxy. So I've been talking a lot about ingress controllers, but the title of my talk was really about API gateways and ingress controllers and service mesh. So what's the difference between an ingress controller and an API gateway? So to recap, an ingress controller processes Kubernetes ingress routing rules. An API gateway is a central point for managing all your traffic to Kubernetes services. It typically has additional functionality such as authentication, observability, a developer portal, and so forth. So what you find is that not all API gateways are ingress controllers because some API gateways don't support Kubernetes at all. So you can't, they can't be ingress controllers. And not all ingress controllers support the functionality such as authentication, observability, developer portal, that you would typically associate with an API gateway. So generally speaking, API gateways that run on Kubernetes should be considered a superset of an ingress controller. But if the API gateway doesn't run on Kubernetes, then it's an API gateway and not an ingress controller. So what's the difference between a service mesh and an API gateway? So an API gateway is really focused on traffic into and out of a cluster. So the colloquial term for this is North/South traffic. A service mesh is focused on traffic between services in a cluster, East/West traffic. All service meshes need an API gateway. So Istio includes a basic ingress or API gateway called the Istio Gateway, because a service mesh needs traffic from the internet to be routed into the mesh before it can actually do anything. Envoy Proxy, as I mentioned, is the most common proxy for both mesh and gateways. Docker Enterprise provides an Envoy-based solution out of the box, Istio Gateway. The reason Docker does this is because, as I mentioned, Kubernetes doesn't come package with an ingress. It makes sense for Docker Enterprise to provide something that's easy to get going, no extra steps required, because with Docker enterprise, you can deploy it and get going, get it exposed on the internet without any additional software. Docker Enterprise can also be easily upgraded to Ambassador because they're both built on Envoy. It ensures consistent routing semantics. And also with Ambassador, you get greater security for single sign-on. There's a lot of security by default that's configured directly into Ambassador. Better control over TLS, things like that. And then finally, there's commercial support that's actually available for Ambassador. Istio is an open source project that has a very broad community, but no commercial support options. So to recap, ingress controllers and API gateways are critical pieces of your cloud native stack. So make sure that you choose something that works well for you. And I think a lot of times organizations don't think critically enough about the API gateway until they're much further down the Kubernetes journey. Considerations around how to choose that API gateway include functionality such as how does it do with traffic management and observability? Does it support the protocols that you need? Also nonfunctional requirements such as does it integrate with your workflow? Do you offer commercial support? Can you get commercial support for this? An API gateway is focused on North/South traffic, so traffic into and out of your Kubernetes cluster. A service mesh is focused on East/West traffic, so traffic between different services inside the same cluster. Docker Enterprise includes Istio Gateway out of the box. Easy to use, but can also be extended with Ambassador for enhanced functionality and security. So thank you for your time. Hope this was helpful in understanding the difference between API gateways, ingress controllers, and service meshes, and how you should be thinking about that on your Kubernetes deployment.

>>thank you everyone for joining. I'm here today to talk about English controllers. AP Gateways and service mention communities three very hot topics that are also frequently confusing. So I'm Richard Lee, founder CEO of Ambassador Labs, formerly known as Data Wire. We sponsor a number of popular open source projects that are part of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, including telepresence and Ambassador, which is a kubernetes native AP gateway. And most of what I'm going to talk about today is related to our work around ambassador. Uh huh. So I want to start by talking about application architecture, er and workflow on kubernetes and how applications that are being built on kubernetes really differ from how they used to be built. So when you're building applications on kubernetes, the traditional architectures is the very famous monolith, and the monolith is a central piece of software. It's one giant thing that you build, deployed run, and the value of a monolith is it's really simple. And if you think about the monolithic development process, more importantly, is the architecture er is really reflecting that workflow. So with the monolith, you have a very centralized development process. You tend not to release too frequently because you have all these different development teams that are working on different features, and then you decide in advance when you're going to release that particular pieces offering. Everyone works towards that release train, and you have specialized teams. You have a development team which has all your developers. You have a Q A team. You have a release team, you have an operations team, so that's your typical development organization and workflow with a monolithic application. As organization shift to micro >>services, they adopt a very different development paradigm. It's a decentralized development paradigm where you have lots of different independent teams that are simultaneously working on different parts of the application, and those application components are really shipped as independent services. And so you really have a continuous release cycle because instead of synchronizing all your teams around one particular vehicle, you have so many different release vehicles that each team is able to ship a soon as they're ready. And so we call this full cycle development because that team is >>really responsible, not just for the coding of that micro service, but also the testing and the release and operations of that service. Um, >>so this is a huge change, particularly with workflow. And there's a lot of implications for this, s o. I have a diagram here that just try to visualize a little bit more the difference in organization >>with the monolith. You have everyone who works on this monolith with micro services. You have the yellow folks work on the Yellow Micro Service, and the purple folks work on the Purple Micro Service and maybe just one person work on the Orange Micro Service and so forth. >>So there's a lot more diversity around your teams and your micro services, and it lets you really adjust the granularity of your development to your specific business need. So how do users actually access your micro services? Well, with the monolith, it's pretty straightforward. You have one big thing. So you just tell the Internet while I have this one big thing on the Internet, make sure you send all your travel to the big thing. But when you have micro services and you have a bunch of different micro services, how do users actually access these micro services? So the solution is an AP gateway, so the gateway consolidates all access to your micro services, so requests come from the Internet. They go to your AP gateway. The AP Gateway looks at these requests, and based on the nature of these requests, it routes them to the appropriate micro service. And because the AP gateway is centralizing thing access to all the micro services, it also really helps you simplify authentication, observe ability, routing all these different crosscutting concerns. Because instead of implementing authentication in each >>of your micro services, which would be a maintenance nightmare and a security nightmare, you put all your authentication in your AP gateway. So if you look at this world of micro services, AP gateways are really important part of your infrastructure, which are really necessary and pre micro services. Pre kubernetes Unhappy Gateway Well valuable was much more optional. So that's one of the really big things around. Recognizing with the micro services architecture er, you >>really need to start thinking much more about maybe a gateway. The other consideration within a P A gateway is around your management workflow because, as I mentioned, each team is actually response for their own micro service, which also means each team needs to be able to independently manage the gateway. So Team A working on that micro service needs to be able to tell the AP at Gateway. This this is >>how I want you to write. Request to my micro service, and the Purple team needs to be able to say something different for how purple requests get right into the Purple Micro Service. So that's also really important consideration as you think about AP gateways and how it fits in your architecture. Because it's not just about your architecture. It's also about your workflow. So let me talk about a PR gateways on kubernetes. I'm going to start by talking about ingress. So ingress is the process of getting traffic from the Internet to services inside the cluster kubernetes. From an architectural perspective, it actually has a requirement that all the different pods in a kubernetes cluster needs to communicate with each other. And as a consequence, what Kubernetes does is it creates its own private network space for all these pods, and each pod gets its own I p address. So this makes things very, very simple for inter pod communication. Cooper in any is, on the other hand, does not say very much around how traffic should actually get into the cluster. So there's a lot of detail around how traffic actually, once it's in the cluster, how you routed around the cluster and it's very opinionated about how this works but getting traffic into the cluster. There's a lot of different options on there's multiple strategies pot i p. There's ingress. There's low bounce of resource is there's no port. >>I'm not gonna go into exhaustive detail on all these different options on. I'm going to just talk about the most common approach that most organizations take today. So the most common strategy for routing is coupling an external load balancer with an ingress controller. And so an external load balancer can be >>ah, Harvard load balancer. It could be a virtual machine. It could be a cloud load balancer. But the key requirement for an external load balancer >>is to be able to attack to stable I people he address so that you can actually map a domain name and DNS to that particular external load balancer and that external load balancer, usually but not always well, then route traffic and pass that traffic straight through to your ingress controller, and then your English controller takes that traffic and then routes it internally inside >>kubernetes to the various pods that are running your micro services. There are >>other approaches, but this is the most common approach. And the reason for this is that the alternative approaches really required each of your micro services to be exposed outside of the cluster, which causes a lot of challenges around management and deployment and maintenance that you generally want to avoid. So I've been talking about in English controller. What exactly is an English controller? So in English controller is an application that can process rules according to the kubernetes English specifications. Strangely, Kubernetes is not actually ship with a built in English controller. Um, I say strangely because you think, well, getting traffic into a cluster is probably a pretty common requirement. And it is. It turns out that this is complex enough that there's no one size fits all English controller. And so there is a set of ingress >>rules that are part of the kubernetes English specifications at specified how traffic gets route into the cluster >>and then you need a proxy that can actually route this traffic to these different pods. And so an increase controller really translates between the kubernetes configuration and the >>proxy configuration and common proxies for ingress. Controllers include H a proxy envoy Proxy or Engine X. So >>let me talk a little bit more about these common proxies. So all these proxies and there >>are many other proxies I'm just highlighting what I consider to be probably the most three most well established proxies. Uh, h a proxy, uh, Engine X and envoy proxies. So H a proxy is managed by a plastic technology start in 2000 and one, um, the H a proxy organization actually creates an ingress controller. And before they kept created ingress controller, there was an open source project called Voyager, which built in ingress Controller on >>H a proxy engine X managed by engine. Xing, subsequently acquired by F five Also open source started a little bit later. The proxy in 2004. And there's the engine Xing breast, which is a community project. Um, that's the most popular a zwelling the engine Next Inc Kubernetes English project which is maintained by the company. This is a common source of confusion because sometimes people will think that they're using the ingress engine X ingress controller, and it's not clear if they're using this commercially supported version or the open source version, and they actually, although they have very similar names, uh, they actually have different functionality. Finally. Envoy Proxy, the newest entrant to the proxy market originally developed by engineers that lift the ride sharing company. They subsequently donated it to the cloud. Native Computing Foundation Envoy has become probably the most popular cloud native proxy. It's used by Ambassador uh, the A P a. Gateway. It's using the SDO service mash. It's using VM Ware Contour. It's been used by Amazon and at mesh. It's probably the most common proxy in the cloud native world. So, as I mentioned, there's a lot of different options for ingress. Controller is the most common. Is the engine X ingress controller, not the one maintained by Engine X Inc but the one that's part of the Cooper Nannies project? Um, ambassador is the most popular envoy based option. Another common option is the SDO Gateway, which is directly integrated with the SDO mesh, and that's >>actually part of Dr Enterprise. So with all these choices around English controller. How do you actually decide? Well, the reality is the ingress specifications very limited. >>And the reason for this is that getting traffic into the cluster there's a lot of nuance into how you want to do that. And it turns out it's very challenging to create a generic one size fits all specifications because of the vast diversity of implementations and choices that are available to end users. And so you don't see English specifying anything around resilience. So if >>you want to specify a time out or rate limiting, it's not possible in dresses really limited to support for http. So if you're using GSPC or Web sockets, you can't use the ingress specifications, um, different ways of routing >>authentication. The list goes on and on. And so what happens is that different English controllers extend the core ingress specifications to support these use cases in different ways. Yeah, so engine X ingress they actually use a combination of config maps and the English Resource is plus custom annotations that extend the ingress to really let you configure a lot of additional extensions. Um, that is exposing the engineers ingress with Ambassador. We actually use custom resource definitions different CRTs that extend kubernetes itself to configure ambassador. And one of the benefits of the CRD approach is that we can create a standard schema that's actually validated by kubernetes. So when you do a coup control apply of an ambassador CRD coop Control can immediately validate and tell >>you if you're actually applying a valid schema in format for your ambassador configuration on As I previously mentioned, ambassadors built on envoy proxy, >>it's the Gateway also uses C R D s they can to use a necks tension of the service match CRD s as opposed to dedicated Gateway C R D s on again sdo Gateway is built on envoy privacy. So I've been talking a lot about English controllers. But the title of my talk was really about AP gateways and English controllers and service smashed. So what's the difference between an English controller and an AP gateway? So to recap, an immigrant controller processes kubernetes English routing rules and a P I. G. Wave is a central point for managing all your traffic to community services. It typically has additional functionality such as authentication, observe, ability, a >>developer portal and so forth. So what you find Is that not all Ap gateways or English controllers? Because some MP gateways don't support kubernetes at all. S o eso you can't make the can't be ingress controllers and not all ingrates. Controllers support the functionality such as authentication, observe, ability, developer portal >>that you would typically associate with an AP gateway. So, generally speaking, um, AP gateways that run on kubernetes should be considered a super set oven ingress controller. But if the A p a gateway doesn't run on kubernetes, then it's an AP gateway and not an increase controller. Yeah, so what's the difference between a service Machin and AP Gateway? So an AP gateway is really >>focused on traffic into and out of a cluster, so the political term for this is North South traffic. A service mesh is focused on traffic between services in a cluster East West traffic. All service meshes need >>an AP gateway, so it's Theo includes a basic ingress or a P a gateway called the SDO gateway, because a service mention needs traffic from the Internet to be routed into the mesh >>before it can actually do anything Omelet. Proxy, as I mentioned, is the most common proxy for both mesh and gateways. Dr. Enterprise provides an envoy based solution out of the box. >>Uh, SDO Gateway. The reason Dr does this is because, as I mentioned, kubernetes doesn't come package with an ingress. Uh, it makes sense for Dr Enterprise to provide something that's easy to get going. No extra steps required because with Dr Enterprise, you can deploy it and get going. Get exposed on the Internet without any additional software. Dr. Enterprise can also be easily upgraded to ambassador because they're both built on envoy and interest. Consistent routing. Semantics. It also with Ambassador. You get >>greater security for for single sign on. There's a lot of security by default that's configured directly into Ambassador Better control over TLS. Things like that. Um And then finally, there's commercial support that's actually available for Ambassador. SDO is an open source project that has a has a very broad community but no commercial support options. So to recap, ingress controllers and AP gateways are critical pieces of your cloud native stack. So make sure that you choose something that works well for you. >>And I think a lot of times organizations don't think critically enough about the AP gateway until they're much further down the Cuban and a journey. Considerations around how to choose that a p a gateway include functionality such as How does it do with traffic management and >>observe ability? Doesn't support the protocols that you need also nonfunctional requirements such as Does it integrate with your workflow? Do you offer commercial support? Can you get commercial support for this on a P? A. Gateway is focused on north south traffic, so traffic into and out of your kubernetes cluster. A service match is focused on East West traffic, so traffic between different services inside the same cluster. Dr. Enterprise includes SDO Gateway out of the box easy to use but can also be extended with ambassador for enhanced functionality and security. So thank you for your time. Hope this was helpful in understanding the difference between a P gateways, English controllers and service meshes and how you should be thinking about that on your kubernetes deployment

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation vibrator this is Dave Volante and welcome to this special cube conversation as you know I've been running a CXO series now for several weeks really trying to understand how leaders are dealing and coping with the Cova 19 crisis today we want to switch gears a little bit and talk not only about how leadership has sort of navigated through this crisis but also start to imagine what it's going to look like coming out of it I'm going to introduce you to a company that have been talking about now for the last well six to nine months company called octave as you know from my previous breaking analysis this is a company that not only is in the security business they really kind of made their mark with identification management but also really there's a data angle normally when you think about security you thinking about auto security it means that less user flexibility it means less value from the user standpoint what what octa has done really successfully is bring together both endpoint security as well as that data angle and so the company is about six hundred million dollars in revenue they've got an eighteen billion dollar valuation which you know may sound kind of rich at 30 X a revenue multiple but as I've reported the company is growing very rapidly I've talked about the you know the rule of 40 octa is really a rule of 50 type of company you know by that definition they're with me here to talk about the product side of things as dia jolly who's the chief product officer yeah thanks so much for coming on the cube I hope you're doing okay how are things out in California things are going well good to meet you as well Dave I hope you're doing well as well yeah we're hanging in there you know the studios are rocking the cube you know continues our daily reporting I want to start with your role you're relatively new to octa you've got a really interesting background particularly understanding endpoints you're at Google Google home of Google Nest you spent some time you know worrying about looking after Xbox do you a good understanding of what's going on in the marketplace but talk about your your role and how specifically you're bringing that to enterprise sure so I drove about this I I say that I've done every kind of known product management imaginable the man at this point I'm done both Hardware Don software so dealt a lot with endpoints as you talked about that a lot with sass dealt with consumer dealt with enterprise and all over the place completely different sizes so after really my role as a chief product officer is to be able to understand and what our customers need right and what are the challenges they're facing and not just the challenges they're facing today but also what are the challenges that they'll face tomorrow that they don't even know about and then help build products to be able to overcome that both with our engineering teams as well as with our sales engineering team so that we can take it to market now my background is unique because I've seen so many identity being used in so many different ways across so many different use cases whether it's enterprise or its consumer and that given that we covered both sides spectrum I can bring that to bear yes so what I've reported previously is that that you guys kind of made your mark with with identification management but in terms of both workforce but also customer identification management which has been I think allowed you to be very very successful I want to bring up a chart and share something that I've I've shared a lot of data with our audience previously some guys if you bring that up so this is data from enterprise Technology Research our data partner and for those who follow this program you know we we generally talk in in two metrics a net score which is a measure of spending momentum and and also market share which really isn't real market share but it's it's pervasiveness in the survey and what you can see here is the latest April survey from over 1200 CIOs and IT practitioners and we're isolating on an octa and and we brought it back to July 15 survey you see a couple of points here I want to make one is it something to the right this is pervasiveness or market share so octa in the market is doing very very well it's why the valuation is so high what's driving the growth and then you can see in the green a 55% net net score very very strong it's one of the leaders in security but as I said it's more than than that so dia from a product standpoint what is powering this momentum sure so as you well know the world is working from home what after does is it provides Identity Management that allows you to connect to any technology and by any technology it primarily means technology technology that's not just on premise like your applications on-premise old-school applications or into software that's on premise but it also means technology that's in the clouds of SAS applications application infrastructure that's in the cloud etc and on the other hand it also allows companies to deploy applications where they can connect to their customers online so as more and more of the world moves to work from home you need to be able to securely and seamlessly allow your employees your partners to be able to connect from their home and to be able to do their work and that's the foundation that we provide now if you look at if you we've heard a lot in the press about companies like zoom slack people that provide online collaboration and their usage has gone up we're seeing similar trends across both octa as well as the entire security industry in general right and if you look at information recently since over to started phishing attacks have increased by six hundred and sixty seven percent and what we've seen in response is one of our products which is multi-factor authentication we've experienced in eighty percent growth in usage so really as Corvette has pushed forward there was a trend for people to be able to work remotely for people to be able to access cloud apps and but as ubered has suddenly poured gas on the fire for that we're seeing our customers reaching out to us a lot more needing more support and just the level of awareness and the level of interest raising let's talk about some of the trends that you guys see in the marketplace and like to better understand how that informs your product or you know roadmap and decisions you know obviously this cloud you guys have made a really good mark in the cloud space you know with both your your operating model your pricing model the modern stack the other is a reference that upfront which data talked a lot about digital transformation digital us data course the third is purity related to trust we've talked a lot on the cube about how the perimeter is there is no particular anymore the Queen is left her castle and so what are the big trends that you see the big waves that that you're riding and how does that inform your product directly sure so a few different things I think number one if you think about the way I've phrase this is or the way I think about it is the following any big technological trend you see today right whether it's the move the cloud whether it's mobile whether it's artificial intelligence intelligence you think about the neural nets etc or it's a personalized consumer experience all of that fundamentally depends on identity so the most important the so from a from being an identity provider the most important thing for us is to be able to build something that is flexible enough that is broad enough that it is able to span multiple uses right so we've taken from a product perspective that means we can follow two philosophies we can either the try and go solve each of these pain points one by one or we can actually try to build a platform that is more open that's more extensible and that's more flexible so that we can solve many of these use cases right and not only can we solve it because there's it extensible our customers can customize it they can build on top of it our partners can build on top of it so that's one thing that's one product philosophy that we hold dear and so we have the Octagon cloud which is a platform which provides both workforce identity as well as customer identity using the same underlying components the same multi-factor authentication we use for workforce we package up as an SDK so that our customer identity customers that's number one the second thing is you rightfully mention is data you can't really secure identity without data so we have very we have a lot of data across our customers we know when the users logging in we know what device they're logging in front we know the security posture on the device we know where they're logging in from we know their different behaviors were apps they go into or during wartime of the day etc so being able to harness all this data to say hey and apply ml model squared to say hey is the user secure or not is a very very core foundation of our product so for example we have what we call risk-based authentication you can not only do things like hey this user seems to be logging on from a location they've never logged on from but you could even do things like well you may not want to stop the user they may be traveling so instead of just asking them for a for a password you ask them for a multi-factor right so that's the other piece of it and in many ways data and security and usability are three legs of a triangle the more data you have the more you can allow a user you more security you can provide a user without creating more friction so it's sometimes helpful for the audience to understand a company in a edit Avant act in the landscape so the obvious platform out there is Active Directory now Microsoft with Azure Active Directory you know really you know trying to and and that's really been on their platforms but with api's you know Microsoft has got a thumbs in every pie how does octave differentiate from some of the other traditional platforms that are out there and and what gives you confidence that it and you can continue to do so going forward post kovat that's it that's a fantastic question Dave um so I think we divide if you think about our competitors on the workforce side we've got Microsoft and a couple of other competitors and on the customer Identity side really it's a bill versus buy story right most companies customer identity internally so let's take workforce first Microsoft is the dominant player there they've got Active Directory they've now got Azure Active Directory and from a Microsoft perspective I think Microsoft is always been great at building products or building technology that interconnected run the world is going to more there's more and more technology proliferation in the world and the way we differentiate is by becoming a neutral and independent platform so whether you're on a Microsoft stack whether you're on a Google stack whether you're on an amazon stack we are able to connect with you deeply we connect just as well with all 365 as they connect with Salesforce as we connect with AWS right and that has been our core philosophy and not only is that a philosophy for other when other vendors it's a philosophy for ourselves as well we have multi-factor authentication so do many other providers like duo if you want to use ours great if you don't want to use ours with our platform who use the one that's best for your technology and I think what we've always believed in from a product perspective is this independence this neutrality this ability to plug-and-play any technology you want into a platform to be able to do what you want and the technology that's best for your business's need so what's interesting what you said about the sort of make versus buy that's particularly relevant for the customer identification management because let's say you know I'm buying from Amazon I've got Amazon they know who I am but if I understand it correctly customers now are able to look across brands maybe cohort selling maybe make specific offers analyze the data that's an advantage that you bring that maybe do it yourself doesn't Frank maybe talk about that a little bit sure so really if you think about if you think about a bill versus buying even ten years ago life used to be relatively simple maybe 15 years ago you had a website you as your username your the password you weren't really using you don't have multiple channels you didn't have multiple devices as prevalent you didn't have multiple apps in a lot of cases connected to each other right and in that in that day and age password was fairly secure you weren't doing a lot of personalization with the user data or had a lot of sensitive user data so building a custom identity solution having your customer managing your customers identity yourself was fairly easy now it's becoming more and more hard number one I just talked about the phishing attacks they're an equal number of attacks on the customer identity side right so how do you actually secure this identity how do you actually use things like multi-factor authentication how do you keep up with all the latest in multi-factor authentication touch ID face ID etcetera and that's one the second thing we provide is scale for a number of companies we also provide the ability to scale dramatically which scaling identity and being being able to authenticate someone and keep someone authenticated in real time is actually a very big channel challenge as you get to more and more scale and then the last thing that you mentioned is this ability we provide a single view of the user which is super super powerful because now if you think about one of our customers Albertsons they have multiple different apps there are multiple different digital experiences and he don't have a siloed view of their customer across all these experiences here one identity for your customer that customer uses that one identity to log on to all your digital experiences across all channels and we're able to bring that data back together so if Albertsons wants to say hey somebody shot a in or bought something in one particular app but I know people that buy this particular object like something else that's available in another app they can give a promotion for it or they can give a discomfort that's so that makes a lot of sense I went into the PR platform get our data partner and I looked at which industries are really showing moment so remember this survey focus was run right in the heart of the the Cova 19 pandemic from from mid-march the mid April so it's a good of good current data point and there were four that stood out large companies healthcare and pharma telco which is courses this work-from-home thing and then consumer the example that you just gave from Albertsons is really you know sort of around that consumer there are a lot of industries that obviously been hit airlines restaurants hospitality but but these four really stood out as growth areas despite the kovat 19 pandemic I want to ask you about octane you just got it had your big user conference anything product specific that came out of that that our audience should know about I mean I'm an interested in access gateway I know that wasn't necessarily a new announcement but Cloud Gateway what were the highlights of some of those things from a product stamp yeah of course so we did we did made a very difficult decision to pivot octane virtually and we did this because a number of our customers are given what they're facing with the Kovach pandemic wanted to hear more around news around what our product launches are how they could use this with cetera and really I'd say there are three key product launches that I want to highlight here we had a number of different announcements and it was a very successful conference but the three that are the most relevant here one is we've always talked about being a platform and we've set this for the past four or five years I think and but over the last your and going into the next couple of years we're investing very very heavily in making our platform even more powerful even more extensible even more customizable and so that it can go across the scenarios you described right which is whether you're on Prem with Auto access gateway or you're in the cloud or in some kind of hybrid environment or you using some mix-and-match or work from home people in the office etc so really what we did this year over the last year was deepen our platform footprint and we started releasing the four components available in a platform which we call platform services so we have six components and we were directories that is customizable and and flexible so you can build your own emails except for N equals four users adds information related to them we have an integration platform that we've made available at a deep level where where our customers can use SDKs tools etc to be able to integrate with octa in a platform which we've talked a lot about and then we released three new platform services and one was what we call arc identity engine we had released we talked about this last year and this year we talked about it last year from a customer identity perspective this year we brought her into our workforce identity but also what that does is it allows you a lot more flexibility for situations like we're in right it allows you flexibility to define security policies at the parabola it so you could decide hey for my email I don't want my customers to have to use a multi-factor authentication for but for Salesforce I would definitely want them to use a multi-factor authentication if they're not in the office and it also allows you to have a lot more flexible factor recovery so for example if you forgot your password one of the biggest pain points of co-ed has been the number of helpdesk costs have been rising through the roof the phone calls are ringing nonstop right and one of the biggest reasons for helpdesk are says oh I can't login I got locked out either lost a factor or L forgot my password it helps with that um so that's one set of announcements the second set of announcements was we launched a brand new devices platform and personally this is my personal favorite but really what the devices platform allows you to do is the feature in it that we launched is called Fast Pass and what phosphorous allows you to do is it actually takes phosphorous to the next level it allows you to basically use logging into your device and us understanding the posture of the device and all the user context around you to be able to log you directly dr. then I imagine if you're on a Mac or a iOS device or an Android or a Windows device just being able to face match into your iOS or being able to touch ID into your Windows hello and you're automatically logged into lockdown right that is that and and the way we do that is we have this client on across all these operating systems that can really understand the security posture of the device it can understand of the device is managed if it's safe if it's jailbroken if it's unmanaged it can also connect with multiple signals on the device so if you have an EDR and MDM vendor we can ingest those signals and what they think of the risk we can also ingest signals directly from apps if apps things like um G suite and Salesforce actually track user behavior to determine risk they can pass those signals to us and then we can make a decision on hey we should allow the user to authenticate directly into octa because they've authenticated their device which we can make a decision that says no let's provider let's ask them to step up with a multi-factor authentication or we can say no this is too risky let's deny access and all of this is configurable by the IT admin they can decide the risk levels they're comfortable with they can decide the different risk levels by different apps so that was another major announcement and then and as a product person you rarely ever get the chance to actually increase security and usability at one time which is why it's my favorite you increase both security and usability together now the last one was action was a workflows engine we call it workflows lifecycle management and we it's really we launched a graphical no cord user interface identity is so important so many business processes for our customers there's so many business processes built an identity for example if someone joins her company you usually either have a script that allows them access to the applications they need to or you actually have an IT admin sitting in there trying to manually provide access or when they leave right what workflow lifecycle management or lifecycle management workflows allows you to do is it actually allows you to provide it actually provides you the no core graphical user interface where you can build all these flows so now you don't need someone that knows coding you can even have a business unit so for example I for me in the product for the product org I can have someone say hey building a business process similar it's something you would build in sort of like an iPad and allow everyone that comes in to be able to have access to fig mom because we use pigma a lot right those are the kinds of things you can do and it's super powerful and it takes the ability of our already existing lifecycle management product to the next level well thank you for that that's that summary dear so I want to kind of close with I mean those of you have been following the cube for a while there I think there's some similarities between octa and and and service now that obviously obvious differences but we started following you know ServiceNow pre-ipo is less than a hundred million dollar company and we've seen that company build out as a platform company and that's really what octa is doing here we're talking about a total available market that's yeah probably north of 50 billion so the the question I have he is you know what Frederic and pod started 11 years ago playing on the dynamics coming out of the financial crisis that got us to where we are today now you've got the challenge of you've achieved reached escape velocity now you've got this you know massive growth opportunity in front of you how do you see the product portfolio evolving expanding and I'm also interested in postcode with 19 you know no whiteboards no face-to-face contact not at least not for a while and how you're kind of managing through that but but how can we expect the product portfolio to expand over time what can you share with us so one of the given how pervasive identity has become and given how not just broad but at the same time deep it is there are multiple different places or product portfolio >> and a number of different places were thinking about right so one is you mentioned today we play in workforce identity and customer identity but we haven't even begun to talk about how we might play in consumer right one of the one of the biggest perk matter is consumers and consumers protecting their own identity so often an employee is not using their identity to lock the seals ports and you have an attack on a company and offered an employee actually logging into their Gmail their personal Gmail or their personal or some personal website that bank and they get and their credential get compromised in their fluency impossible so the more protective the more directly consumers the more we indirectly protect both enterprises from work from an employer as well as a customer perspective howdy we're an enterprise company so it doesn't mean that we are going to go direct to consumer there are ways to make employees more secure by what the director calls were so that's one the second thing is managing identities I think we've as the number of applications as the number of technologies are proliferate managing and an employee's life cycle who that governing that the life cycle is not administering etc is also fully stock also becoming very very challenging it was all well and good we'll never can ask and you were on that that's not true anymore an average company uses I think close to 200 applications and then if you broaden back to other resources like infrastructure there's a lot lock more so how do you actually build automated systems that based on the employee status based on their rule based on the project they're on provides them the right access for the right amount of time the third thing you mentioned is and you should pass on this initially but this is the there's this concept of zero security right and the perimeters disappeared how do you provide security so if you look at the industry at large today there are tons of different security vendors trying to provide security at each point if you talk to any see-saw out there it's really really hard to cobble all of this together and one of the things we were trying to do is we're trying to figure out how with our partners we can build a silly end-to-end solution for n - n zero trust for our customers so that's that's another area that the of the product portfolio we're pushing and then finally with the whole digital transformation and customer identity yes more and more companies want their customers to go back online yes more and more customers convenience of being able to interact online with Billy if you think about it the world has changed dramatically over the last three years with privacy laws with things like gdpr CCP etc how do you actually manage your customers obviously you actually manage their content how do you ensure that while you're using all this data from across these apps that we talked about here you and you're using for the first benefit how do you make sure that the minister private is secure and and how do you ensure your customers that's another major area that I think our customers are asking us for helping and so those are areas or so that you should be a big signature the next two to three years some of it will be through partnership that's generally that high-level directions we're headed in wealthy you so much for coming on the key on the key and sharing the product roadmap and some other details about the great company really interested in watching its continued ascendancy good luck in the marketplace and thank you for watching everybody this is Dave Villante you conversations we'll see you next time [Music]

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode of the cube insights powered by ETR this week cisco CEO Chuck Robbins has invited a number of analysts and press to San Francisco for an event to talk about the future of Cisco and no doubt the role of the company in the next decade and I will be there so in this breaking analysis I thought that I'd focus on Cisco and its prospects in this era of next-generation cloud of course last week we attended AWS reinvent and you can catch all our coverage on the cube net but the key takeaways are that we're entering a new era of cloud that is heavily emphasized emphasizing getting more value out of data with machine intelligence and things like sage maker now AWS was heavily focused on this notion of transformation putting forth the strong case that enterprises have to transform not just incrementally it was a clear message that CEOs really have to lead and AWS are striking directly at the heart of what a device had Andy Jesse calls the old guard namely IBM Dell Oracle HPE and many others including of course Cisco saying that you can't just transform incremental e CEOs you have to transform whole house so today I want to look at six areas and I'm showing them here on this on this slide but the first thing I want to do is just review the overall spending climate and then what I want to do is discuss Cisco in the context of industry leadership playing on Jesse's themes and then you know we'll look at the spending momentum in the latest ETR survey for those leaders next thing I want to do is I'm going to talk about the cloud and it's impacting everyone and I want to take a look specifically at how it's impacting Cisco and how Cisco is faring in the face of competent from the public cloud which we've talked about a lot across a number of vendors we're then going to look at Cisco's business overall from a spending perspective and then I'll wrap with some some comments on what I see is opportunities for Cisco like edge I want to talk specifically about multi cloud and of course cloud in general so let's start drilling into the spending climate overall now remember the EGR data tells us that spending on balance is reverting to pre 2018 levels but it's not falling off the cliff buyers member are narrowing their experimentation on new technologies and they're placing more focused bets as part of the digital transformations we're also seeing more replacements of redundant systems that buyers were running in parallel as a hedge on their bets and that is affecting overall spending and it's somewhat compressing spending so with that as a backdrop let's look at some of the the latest data from ETR and focus on the leaders from the latest survey so what I'm showing here is data from ETRS October 2019 Syria one thousand three hundred and thirty six IT buyers who responded and I've selected market share as the metric across all sectors as you can see here in number eight now remember market share is a measure of pervasiveness and it's calculated by dividing the total vendor Mensch mentions divided by the sector total so now the remember the ETR methodology allows for multiple responses by a vendor so you can see in the y-axis there can be more than a hundred percent okay because of those multiple responders respondents now note that Microsoft Cisco Oracle AWS and IBM have the highest shared ends or mentions and you can see the pervasiveness of Microsoft and its prominence which is not surprising but Cisco Oracle and IBM generally have held from again pervasiveness standpoint pretty well as you can see the steady rise as well in AWS is market share so cisco really the bottom line there is cisco is a clear leader in this industry and it's maintaining its leadership position and you can of course on that chart you can see the others who really didn't make the top five but they're prominently you know mentioned with the shared ends that's VMware Salesforce Adobe's up there and of course Dell EMC is the you know 90 to 100 billion dollar company now let's take a look specifically at spending momentum you know what we're showing here in this chart is the exact same cut except we've changed the metric from market share to net score now remember net score is a measure of spending momentum that's calculated by essentially subtracting the percent of customers that are spending less in a given survey from those that are spending more and that's the net score and you can see the picture changes pretty dramatically AWS jumps up to the top spot with a 62% you know net score over taking Microsoft but then look at Cisco it's very strong with the 36 about 34 percent net score you know not nearly as high as AWS and Microsoft but very respectable and holding you know fairly strongly and notably ahead of IBM and Oracle which are both in the red you see that red area which signals caution now what I want to do is address the question of how is the cloud affecting Cisco's business you've seen me do this with a number of other vendors let's drill into what it means for Cisco so if you've been following these breaking analysis segments you know we've been reporting that the the pace at which the cloud is eating away at a traditional on-prem data data data center business continues now here's a quote from an IT Pro that summarizes the situation for networking in general and then we'll come back and specifically talk about Cisco he says or she says as we migrate the data centers to AWS networking costs will decline over three years this is a director of tech strategy for a large telco so the question I have is does the et et our data back this up let's take a look so what this chart shows is a cut of cloud spenders there are 818 in the latest ETR survey and the net score within those accounts specifically for Cisco so it's spenders on AWS asier and Google cloud and you can see the steady decline post 2010 for Cisco so just as I've reported for Dell EMC HPE Oracle and others you can see that the clouds steady march continues to challenge the on-prem suppliers so each of these companies has really got to figure out how to respond now in the case of Cisco it's moving from owning the network market to really participating in the public cloud and interconnecting clouds so we've seen Cisco make many acquisitions that can allow them to work with AWS for example app D which is application performance management VIP teller which is SD win clicker which is orchestration duo in cloud security and then you've seen bets on kubernetes which are going to help them span hybrid you know as well you've seen them make partnerships with the leading cloud some suppliers and I'll make some comments later on when I talk about multi cloud so let's look at how these diversification moves have impacted Cisco overall because they've not sat still you can see that in this chart what it shows is Cisco's market share across all of its businesses including analytics security telephony and of course core networking but also servers storage video conferencing and virtualization so the point is that by diversifying its business the company has expanded its Tam its total available market and as I showed you before has maintained a leadership position in the data center is measured by market share now here's a deeper sector analysis of Cisco's business by various sectors and what we're showing here is Cisco's business across a number of sectors comparing the October 18 survey with July 19 and the October 19 surveys so this is net score view and you can see across all customers that Cisco's second-half net score for these sectors which are in the green are showing strong momentum relative to a year ago so here you go Meraki which includes Cisco's wireless business its telephony business parts of its security business core Cisco Networking they're all showing strength now parts of its security portfolio like Open DNS and Sourcefire which is intrusion detection which Cisco bought about six years ago and some at Cisco's voice and video assets are showing slower momentum but Cisco's overall spending momentum is holding on pretty well all right let me talk a moment about some of Cisco's opportunities they're trying to transform into more of a software company with assets like duo app dynamics and they want to focus less on selling boxes and ports and more on licenses and subscriptions so it's also got its got to use software also to unify its many platforms so I want to talk about for a moment about multi cloud hot new area right everybody's talking about it cisco recently made some organizational moves to take its separate cloud group and better align it with Cisco's core operations in a new group that they call cloud strategy and compute now cisco competes in multi cloud with vmware IBM curves Red Hat Microsoft and Google even though they partner with Microsoft and Google so here's some ETR data that looks at key Cloud sectors including the three did I pulled out cloud computing container orchestration and container platforms so these are buyers spending on these three areas so there's 937 in the latest survey you can't see that and because I'm hiding it with the pulldown but trust me but you can see the big players with spending momentum and while cisco doesn't you know show the momentum of an azure or a red hat or even a Google it's in that multi cloud game and my my premise is that cisco is coming at this opportunity from its strengths and networking and it's got more than a fighting chance why because cisco is in my view in the position to connect multiple clouds to on-prem and convince buyers that cisco is the best partner to make networks higher performance more secure and more cost-effective than the competition now let me wrap with some critical comments and then i'll end up on an opportunity with with some comments on edge so the first thing I want to say is well Cisco is dominant in a space it's missed a number of opportunities VMware has beaten Cisco to the punch in the initial move of course to virtual machines and then the nice Sara acquisition NSX as I've shown before is clearly has strong momentum in the market and is really eating into Cisco's core business Cisco's ACI does okay but it's definitely a sore spot Francisco and this represents a crack in the companies Armour containers the move to cloud native architectures is mostly a move to public cloud so it's a replacement or a displacement more so than a head-to-head competition that hurts Cisco here is John Fourier says you have you have cloud native and if you take the T out of cloud native you have cloud naive so cisco along with others must not beat cloud naive rather it has to remain relevant in the cloud as we discussed earlier in the multi cloud discussion now Cisco they were the king of converged infrastructure if you remember with the first wave of Vblock along with the Flex pod from NetApp and it you know changed the server game and drove UCS adoption and then guys like IBM and pure jumped in Cisco really became the standard now well hyper-converged infrastructure didn't really displace Cisco Networking you know Dell VMware with it with VX rail and Nutanix as well as HPE who's in the third position are posing a challenge that's so cisco cisco they everything they really don't play in the lucrative high margin external storage business but there's some challenges there that from a tam standpoint but I don't worry so much about that because despite all the rumors over the years specifically in storage that Cisco is going to buy a storage company and I think there are better opportunities in soft where in the end the edge and as I've said before storage right now is kind of on the back burner it's not it's a very difficult market for a company like Cisco to to enter so I want to talk more about the edge because they think it's a way better opportunity for Cisco Cisco among all the legacy tech vendors and my view could really compete for the edge and the reason I say this is because Cisco is the only legacy player in my opinion that is a solid solid developer strategy and it's because of dev net dev net is the initiative to make all Cisco products programmable we talk a lot about the API economy and infrastructure of code as code and what Cisco is doing is they're taking Cisco certified engineers like CC IES and all these people that they've trained over the years huge number of IT pros and they're retraining them and teaching them how to code on Cisco products to create new use cases new workloads and new applications specifically at the edge and Cisco products are designed to be programmable so they have a developer play and I've always said the edge is going to be won by developers this is why frankly I was so excited last week at reinvent about AWS outpost and the move they're making at the edge because they're essentially bringing their stack to the edge and making it programmable IBM failed to do this with bluemix they couldn't attract developers they they had to go by Red Hat for thirty four billion dollars you know Dell MC they have VMware and they have an opportunity with pivotal but that's got to come together they currently have very little developer synergy in my view specifically with Dell Hardware at least that I can see and there seems to be little or no effort to retrain storage admins and VM admins in the same way that cisco is is doing this with CC IES HPE essentially I see them like Dallin away throwing server boxes over the fence to the edge you know versus really attracting developers to identify sort of new workload new use cases so I like Cisco strategy in this regard and it's something that we're gonna continue to watch very closely and probe this week with Chuck Robbins okay this is date Volante sounding out from this episode of the cube insights powered by ETR thanks for watching everybody and we'll see you next time

>> Narrator: Live from San Diego, California. It's theCube! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, brought to you by Red Hat. A cloud native computing foundation. >> Welcome back. 12 thousand here in attendance for KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego. I am Stu Miniman, my cohost for this afternoon is John troyer. And happy to welcome to the program, recently out of Stealth, two gentlemen from Chronosphere, Austin. To my right is Martin Mao who is the co-founder and CEO and his co-founder Rob Skillington, who's also the CTO, we've stated on theCUBE actually, you understand where this conference is, where co-founder and CTO is like you know, the most prominent title that we've seen to get on here, because that's the type of geeks we love on the program and in this community. So first of all, congratulations on the launch >> Thank you so much >> And thank you so much for joining us. >> No worries. >> All right, when I've got the founders on, I'm going to start with the whys. How was kind of the problem statement, where you were coming from, and what led to the creation of Chronosphere. >> For sure for sure. So with Chronosphere we found a actual gap in the monitoring market, and a very crowded monitoring market, we found a gap, and the gap exists when companies with very large complex technology stacks, or large enterprises, move on to Cloud Native Technology and Kubernetes. So with this migration, what we've found was there's actually a lot more monitoring data being produced, because there's a lot more pieces now, we're moving from monoliths microservices, we're moving from like physical machines to VMs, to containers and pods. And that generates a lot more things that you need to monitor and track. And not only a lot more things, but you generally monitoring the relationship between these things. So as the number of things increases, the number of relationships exponentially increases. So yeah, that's the sort of problem we're solving, it's like monitoring all of these things at large scale, and when we couldn't find anything, and I could even store all of theses things, so that's it sort of. >> All right, so what is the background of the team that made you into position to work on this problem? >> Yeah great question. I mean me and Martin go back quite a few years. I officiated his wedding, only very very recently actually. And I, yeah we basically work together at several different companies. You know, I think both of us are entrepreneurial at heart. I'll let Martin talk a little bit more about the last few years. >> Yeah, so like you know, a few years ago we started working at Uber. And at Uber, we went through this migrations to our native communities and through that migration that's when we sort of had to solve the problem ourselves. And we solved the problem at Uber, with an open-source project called M3. That's really where this whole thing started. And Chronosphere sort of you know, building on top of M3, and now providing a product on top of the open-source platform that we created. >> Can we talk a little bit about the business? I noticed that you know, there are many ways of approaching open-source, in 2019, you know open core and but also as a service. So can you talk a little bit about how you've approached your business model. >> Yeah for sure. So we're very much in the position or in the camp of as a service, right, because you know a lot of companies do do open core, and they're sort of going into the enterprise support model, we sort of didn't want to go down that route. And also with our open-source product, it's not really an end to end solution in itself, like you use an open-source M3, but you still need to plug it together with other things yourself. So what we really wanted to do was to give customers, and end to end solution, and that was built on top of the great technology, we built with M3, but really it solves the problem sort of end to end, and we do that best as a service. >> Rob maybe you can help explain M3 a little bit for us as to how that fits in the landscape, but what it works with and the like. >> Yeah of course. Yeah it's basically at it's heart a metrics platform, that is built on, at first the lower layer in 3DB, which is a distributive time series database. And then on top of that, we have basically an aggregation platform, that is actually aggregating a lot of the samples, and metrics that we're, collecting. So we can really do some transformations on the data, as it comes in, before it's stored in the database itself. And this let's us do a lot of like smart processing, of what signals actually matter, what signals don't matter, kind of like storing them in a way that can be accessed, much faster than like, other typical systems that don't really do any aggregation before it gets stored. And then, you know we have of course like a query engine that works with this distributed set of data, and so, you know, it's really a database that was designed from day one, to be a metric store. You know, it's not built on Cassandra, it doesn't use Rocks DB, at the lower layers, it literarily every part of it, was built for this purpose. >> Can you talk a little bit about dimensionality and cardinality? Because as I look at this observability monitoring space, I see a lot of current discussion about that and frankly a little bit of fighting, and I'm not always, I can kind of see it, why it's important, but what are some of the reasons and what do people do where you know by having it, and what is it actually, let's start with that. >> Yeah for sure. So you know, with this hot topic of like high cardinality and high dimensionality is, what I was talking about earlier, where as you move into cloud native world, you're now monitoring things at like a pod level. So it's like instead of tracking things on like a per host level, you're now tracking things on like a per pod level now, and that is at >> (interjects) You're tracking more things per pod. >> More things per pod and like every pod unit, these are ephemeral pods now, so they don't live for very long. So you end up having more pieces of data and they're kept around for shorter period of time. And now you need a system that can store all of these pieces of data, because you want to see them uniquely. So you want to monitor each individual pod to see exactly what is running at the finest levels. Right, so you actually need technology that can store a lot more data than you could before. >> And I you know, adding to that, there's a lot more people running with like mobile applications, they use you know that are running in markets all round the world, using different cell providers, and different backend services. You may deploy your backend services multiple times, a week or even a day, and if you want to tag you know, the meta data on and slice and dice by that metadata, with your business and with your applications and your system, that requires you know, adding yet another dimension on your data, which adds to that cardinality. Every time you add a dimension, you know that just multiplies the cardinality of your existing data set of monitoring data. >> And it quickly adds up a lot right, so. >> All right Martin, maybe, since you're just out of Stealth, give us some of the speeds and feeds you know, the product GA, is it globally available? Series A funding, who's behind that? >> Yeah so we just kind of still two weeks ago, we closed up Series A a few months ago actually. It was led by Great Luck, we raised 11 million dollars, and our partner at Great Luck is Gary, and we like him very much. And you know the state of the companies that we are currently in private beta right now. So with our hosted platform, we are onboarding to customers into a private offering right now. And early next year, we'll sort of open that up for more public beta. Yeah. >> And the way folks would use this. You'll be using Prometheus or Graphite or something, and you'd be, so you'd have tracing, you'd have logs, you'd have other things and you would be plugging all of them into, into your services. >> Yeah it's a great question. So you mentioned two of the technologies. So if you're Prometheus or Graphite like to try find metrics, both of those can be pushed into the M3 system for sure. We actually just announced a trace integration, this week a KubeCon actually, Rob David spoke about that integration earlier this week at KubeCon. We haven't moved into the logs yet because the way we look at the problem is not from like a sort of like providing a one-stop shop for all observability solutions, we actually look at it from a use case perspective. So the use case we're looking at is like, realtime monitoring and remediation. So tracing is a part of that stroy, it's a critical part of that story, and now to add additional context, when you get to load it based on your metrics, but, we haven't quite moved into logging yet. >> Yeah, and we don't really want to solve any of these problems without knowing it'll work at scale, you know like a fundamental reason we even built the open-source project in the first place, was we were dealing with cardinality in the tens of billions of unique time series, and so, we don't want to just kind of like roll into any, every single feature under the sun, we really want to solve it once correctly and be able to systematically roll that out to enterprises at scale. >> Without, I mean without talking too much about Uber and any Uber secrets, I mean it seems like the game has changed with that kind of a scale of, you could not have done, you can't run Uber if you're tracking all those cars like literarily without some sort of a tracing like high cardinality sort of a system right? Because you're literarily tracking cars all over the world people all over the world, routes all over the world. >> Exactly, well uniquely positioned, we had the requirements to solve it at such a scale, and that's why we had to build this technology to solve it for that unique situation, because you know technologies ahead of time, did not really have this use case to solve. So that's why we had to sort of, we couldn't find anything out in the market because to solve it at that scale, that's why we sort of had to build our own, to uniquely solve it for this use case. >> And yeah, I would add to that, that typically engineers you know, at larger organizations, tend to want to organize everything very nicely, and split it up, and really control how they're monitoring that data, but we've noticed actually, definitely over the last few years, more and more people are open to letting people just start collecting you know, random data, that is relevant to the systems that they're building as they're rolling it out, even as they're experimenting with it, and you know systems today that are built from scratch, to deal with, to be as efficient as possible, with very unstructured data is becoming wildly popular because that's how developers want to develop software. You know, they don't want to have to have to like slice and dice it neatly and package it up and pass it on to others to run. They want to basically slice and dice however they want to, and dynamically , and as they scale up. >> I've always enjoyed every sequel skimmer I've had two, or change oh, yeah. (laughter) >> All right, how have you found the show? How's the reception been? Give us a little bit of the vibe of the show and how it's been going for you. >> Yeah it's been fantastic for us actually. So we just came in at silk so like the name is still quite new, but yeah, we've had a bunch of folks set up with the whole day, we've been giving a demo on the product, so a lot of companies are getting excited about it. I think a we're solving at a scale and that really resonates with, you know, a lot of the people here at the show, we're still solving at a scope, we're solving at a scale that's also in a cost efficient way as well. So that's really been our, we sleep quite well so far. >> Yeah Rob, you gave some sessions. What kind of feedback are you getting from people? Is the problem statement that we talked about at the beginning you know resonating with people that you talk to. >> I mean, I was really, yeah pleased to hear that after my session today, that a lot of people came up to me and said you know, I've never really seen metrics been linked to tracers, the way that we're doing it, in fact that's the first time they'd ever seen a demo, that can do, what we're kind of trying to upstream, we're actually you know, up-streaming a lot of those changes in the open-source well, as well at the same time. And so, you know we've found especially in a lot of the companies today that are pushing everything forward with development wise and how they are running operations is that they using a lot of pages in open source, and then those pages are battle tested in open-source, generally it becomes abstracted, to the point where we're actually a very large amount of people, but then when they need to scale it up, that's when it becomes difficult. So, no I think that you know, a lot of people have been very positive with basically us being able to also push forward the feature on >> Back upstream into the M3 project. >> And also into Prometheus. So I, you know I'm an open metrics, contributor and that's essentially, an exposition format that's built on the Prometheus, exposition format. So it's kind of become a standard way of exchanging metrics, from one system to another. And that's kind of like, basically commoditized and democratize the exchange of metrics to make a lot more systems, interoperable with each another. Which we fundamentally believe in as well, of course we're developing in open-source, and we believe that this systems need to play nicely together. So we can build you know, have building blocks that large companies and organizations can all share and build better things on top of. >> All right, so looking to go to public beta early 2020s, what we said, when we come back in 2020, what kind of the, some of the key KPIs and metrics that you'll be looking at to be successfull in your first year out of Stealth. >> Yeah it's a great question. So you know, since some of the KPIs you guys were looking at doing is coming at the public beta, making it available to a large range of companies, because right now we're sort of onboarding companies sort of one or two at a time, so yeah it's seeing how many companies adopt the product and also, we're again adding more features over time, for that particular use case of like you know, monitoring your technology just like in your business in real time. So it'll be a lot more features coming down the pipeline, and a lot more customer adoption along with that. >> And I would also say you know, our hosted platform is really about offering like deep isolation, between our tenants as well, so basically when we you know, in the next few months to come, we want to make sure that it works basically like clockwork, and everyone can, we can roll out and scale that highly isolated platform for you know tens and hundreds of organizations, and thousands eventually. And so, and doing that at scale is hard. So I think yeah, we'll see how we're doing with that. >> Yeah for sure. >> All right. Rob, Martin congratulations on coming out of Stealth, look forward to hearing more and thank you so much for joining us. >> Glad, thank you so much. >> All right, for John Troyer I'm Stu Miniman, we'll be back getting towards the end of three days, want to walk over here KubeCon, CloudNativeCon thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019 brought to you by the M Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> I am Stew Minimum and my co host, Justin Warren. And you're watching The Cube live from VM World 2019 here in Moscow North. Actually, the 10th year that we've had the cubit this event joining me on the program, I have Brad Anderson and Keith Norby, both with Netapp. Brad is an executive vice president, and Keith is director of strategic alliances. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. So, Brad, I've had >> the pleasure of working with the, um where since 2002 it's one of the highlights of my career in Tech has been watching that growth of virtual ization a company that, you know. It was about 100 people when I first started watching them. And that wave, a virtualization that had ripples throughout the industry, was really impressive. But >> I didn't actually >> get to come to this show until 2010 Asai said. Our 10th year of the show, you were one of the few that were at the inaugural event that it's the 16th year of it. So >> just give us a >> little bit of ah ah, look back in. You know what you've seen changing Netapp, of course. You know, long longtime partner of ah of Via Mers. >> Absolutely. He was like 3 4000 for it was at a hotel in San Diego. And there's probably about 1000 people there, but I don't think they were planning 1000. So is the longest kind of room. And we had people that were just kind of a mile down. And finally, uh uh, the comment was, Hey, could we knock down a wall and kind of get people a little bit closer? So, no, that was a long time ago. And in fact, it was Diane Mendel. I had an opportunity of Aquino, and I think there was another key note from IBM. >> Yeah, well, you know, I'm sorry they didn't invite you back on stage this morning, but, you know, >> a little big, bigger show today. >> A little bigger. I think we're somewhere the ballpark. 20 thousands. What? This show's been for about the last five years. Conversations very different today. As I made commentary were in the post VM era. Today, V EMS are no longer the center of the conversation. And you know, multi cloud is something that they put out there, which is the story I've been hearing from net out for many years software company, living in all of these cloud environment. So talk to us a little bit about how that relationship with VM wear and what we're not upsets in the ecosystem is >> changing. I mean, you know, Veum, where has never happened, then where has been a great partner for a long, long time? And, uh, and net have strategies Clearly hybrid multi cloud. When you think about private clouds today, VM where has a huge footprint in that space, So they continue be super important. We probably have a more expansive definition of hybrid to us. Hybrid is private cloud and public cloud in all kinds of combinations. And but we also so strongly believe the multi cloud and so we are. You know, we're driving very hard for the hybrid multi cloud, letting customers basically start anywhere they want to with any cloud provider on Prem in the cloud, and have that you know that control of data irrespective of and move at their own pace. >> Yes, sir. Vienna, Where has long been one of those places where everybody can meet? So you mentioned knocking down walls. VM. Where is one of the few companies that actually succeeded in doing that and having people be able to work with partners in other eras? There was often a lot of fighting between different vendors, or it's here. It's whatever you as a customer wants to do, we will be there to do that with you. And that's another one of those companies. All right, if you have some data, we will help you manage it, no matter where it is. So what tell it tells about something that what are you doing right now in this Is New World, where a stew mentions it's a post of'em world. So in this post of'em world, how do you manage your data in that post VM world? >> Well, it's it's it's Ah, it's managing first of all, I mean, we really strongly believe place, and so we're gonna manage, you know, you know the data and start where the customer starts. I mean, we're not advocating that they have to start in cloud. They have to be on prim. There's an orderly path because depending on the customer, they're all going to take a very different path. And and so what we want to do is give him control. Their data, irrespective of the path, allow them to move on that path. But we're seeing at Netapp that it's it's the but the data is beyond the data that's increasingly about applications. And so, you know, you heard a little bit about Ah Kubernetes. That's That's something we've strongly feel as well on providing a set of tools to provide choice where, you know, you know, independent the cloud, you know, same kubernetes service, same different tools, same tool set. Same service is on prim or in the cloud. >> Yeah, Ned has a strong cloud. President's summer things like cloud volumes. Some of the other acquisitions that you've made that help you with the cloud journey, like some of them have sufferings, are really strong, >> know very much so. And and we think we can provide Ah ah, the superior customer experience. But then, if the customer wants to use, you know, a variety interesting set of tools we support that as well. We are supporting the customer on his journey with the tools as they ah determined. >> So, Keith, tell us about some of the strategic partnerships that helped net up. To be able to partner with these different customers and to bring different vendors together to help themselves. Customer problems? >> Yeah, well takes a lot of them. Thio, meet the customer needs, as you saw today in the landscape folks that are on the solutions exchange floor. It takes not just a partnership between net up and VM wear, but net up in Vienna, where plus v m net up in Vienna, where plus ah ton of other folks, Cisco has an example longtime partner of ours and flex pot. Then you know the fact that we're doing memory accelerator flex pod takes, you know, something that has had a long tradition of the, um where excellence with Cisco and is now the order of magnitude faster than anything you want for APS that need scale, performance, all the service capabilities of on tap for things like Metro Cluster and beyond. >> So you remember back years ago it was you know, you know who has the most integrations and with the M wear. And you know, if you know all the A I and Viv balls and all of those pieces and netapp always, you know, was right at the top of the list. You know, working in those environments may be brought if you want to enter this. But, you know, today, how do you give us some examples That kind of that joint engineering work that goes on between Netapp and VM, where obviously there's bundle solutions like flex pod, that's, you know, the sphere plus netapp in there. But you know that engineering level, you know, where does rubber with road? >> Yeah, it's funny because I've been at every vehicle except to, And so I've been with you. In the sense I've seen the landscape of these innovations where Steve Haired and some others would talk about the movie previews of things like the aye aye and bossy providers all coming. And that was the big thing you'd focus on. Now it's less about that, and I think it's more about what Brad is kind of brought to net happened in the focus on simplicity. Now the funny part about simplicity is that to deliver simplicity, much like the engineering detail to deliver Tesla or an iPhone is extraordinary, so the work isn't less. In fact, the work is Maur and you pre configuring or pre what you were wearing as much as possible. The work we started to do over a year ago between George Curry in our CEO and Sanjay Poon got together. We started planning on some multi cloud plans, and, uh, that's where you see a lot of our persistence and cloud volumes on VMC. You see us having a view more vow, didn't design Aneta Page C. I for your Private Cloud VD I solutions. And these air meant to draw NSX a kn and when his net I've ever had in NSX immigration all said, Now we have had a sex and integrations to make that easier to bring on board. We have the realized integration so you could build a self serve portal catalog just like it talked about today, and the list goes on and on, so it's funny how it's less. The features are important. But what's more important is trying to make this a simple it's possible for you to consume and then for the folks that need things like scale of maps and service is or they need the same cloud volumes in this data fabric on any one of the hyper scale er's. We have really the only end in story on that, and that's what makes the via More plus net up thing worked really well. >> So how do you balance the flexibility of being able to solve multiple customer problems? And they all have different needs. How do you balance the simplicity with that? With that complexity? And it was mentioned by Pat, make a note as well that you've got this kind of tension between. I need to be able to do everything flexibly, but that can sometimes lead the complexity. So how do you change that? To become simple for customers to use? >> I mean, I think the biggest thing it Z it's a design input. I mean, if if you start out with just trying to make the technology all it can be with a end of you know, one particular cloud or one particular partner, then it becomes very difficult. As he tried to expand it to multiple partners and because it's about choice. We're kind of think about that right up front. And so if it's a design input, it puts, it puts, as he said, to put some burden on the technical team. But it is a much more powerful solution if we if you can pull it off, and that's been a big part, and I think it kind of starts with this mentality that you know, it's about choice, and we gotta make simplicity. And now part of the value proposition, rather than after for thought as it has, may be historically has been. What if >> we could talk a little bit about customers? Because, you know the message I hear this morning is you know, you talk multi cloud, a cloud native. There's a lot of change in the industry, you know, I'm participating in couple of career advice events because remember back 10 years ago, it was Oh, my gosh, if I'm a server admin, I need to learn to be virtualization than it was cloud. You know, architects, but way know that change in the industry is constant. So, you know, what are some of the key drivers when you're talking to customers in general and specifically when you talk about in engaging in part with the M where, >> Yeah, I mean, I I think it starts with people just recognizing. Even if people haven't moved the cloud today, that tends to be their primary strategy. In a recent survey, I think we found 98% of the customers, said Cloud is her strategy. However, 53% said still on Prem is their primary compute centers. So you know they're not there yet. And so But because that's their strategy, then you know we have to respect that. And so So, uh, you know, increasingly you're seeing at Netapp Waleed with clout, even though we know customers aren't quite ready there. But we align to that long term vision. But then our strange made up helping the modernize What they have currently on prim helping build private clouds for the same service is they have him public cloud, and then let them have the complete absolute choice. What public cloud or multiple public clouds they want and designed with with, you know, that full spectrum in mind, knowing they could start anywhere on that on that scale. >> Yeah, the customers ultimately are gonna dictate to the market What Israel and I think over time, Pios sort of vet who is right on this stuff. And so history's a great lesson teacher of all those things, you know, for me, it seems less less about how many different things you can offer. And as you see whether we're at Veum World or at Red Hat Summit were made obvious. Reinvent or, um, coup con every every every vector, turn of the customers. Prism on this will say something different. But I think in general, categorically, if you look at it, you could start to just, you know, glean what you think are the real requirements. And by the way, the rule carpets are not all technical. You know, I think what what gets lost on folks is that there is a lot of operational political factors, probably political factors, a lot more than what a lot of people think. You know, they're just talking about what the what The speed is to re factor APs or to migrate APS. Frankly, there's just a lot of politics that goes with that. There's a lot of just stuff to work through, >> and that's where I think simplicity is so important because of those non technical reason. Simplicity resonates across the board. >> But I would say you have to have simplicity with capabilities. >> I mean, just one of the things you talk about, right? If I modernize some application, well, the people that were using that application, they were probably complaining about that old one. But at least they do have to relearn >> that. Have that that new one. So we're gonna have some exciting announcements tomorrow. So I'm kind of check out tomorrow's stuff that will announce with VM, where with Netapp tomorrow We're here at the show floor will be showcasing some of those things. We can't give away too much of that today. But, you know, we think the future is bright and together with with Veum Or, you know, this partnership, I think, has a lot of upside. Like you said, we've had We've had a 17 year history with, you know, hundreds of thousands of customers together and installed base that goes back to like you said to be very beginning. Um, I remember back to the very beginning of the ecosystem. Net up was one of the strongest players in that market on dhe Since then, it's evolved beyond just NFS. >> Well, hopefully bread. We can get you on a keynote for in another 10 years. Waken Knock that wall down Exactly. Exactly. >> All right, great. Want to give you both the final word? You know, so so many big themes going on, you know, takeaways that you want people to have from the emerald 2019 bread >> I think the biggest takeaway is that just like the show today you didn't hear a whole lot about virtualization. It's moving to contain her eyes and and we had netapp view that, you know, we support all virtualized environments on from across the cloud, moving to supporting all containerized application environments on premises and cloud. And it's about choices in combinations of both, but keeping data control. >> Yeah, I'd say for me, it's it's really the power of the of of the better together, you know, to me, it's nobody's great apart. It takes really an ecosystem of players to kind of work together for the customer benefit and the one that we've demonstrated of'em. Where with that plus Veum, where has been a powerful one for well, well over 17 years and the person that putting in terms of joint customers that have a ton of loyalty to both of us, and they want us just to work it out. So you know, whether you're whether your allegiance on one side of the Cooper natty criminals battle or another or you're on one side of anyone's stores. Choice or another. I think customers want Netapp on via mortar work. It's out and come up with solutions that we've done that. And now what? We wait for the second act of this to come out. We'll start that tomorrow. Teeth and >> Brad, thank you so much if you couldn't tell by the sirens on the street. We are live here at San Francisco at Mosconi, north of lots more coverage. Three days wall to wall coverage for Justin Warren. I'm stew. Minimum is always thank you for watching the cue

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the you covering your red hat. Some twenty nineteen >> rots. >> You buy bread >> hat, >> and we'LL go back here on the Cube as we continue our coverage here. Red Hat Summit day. One of three days of Walter Wall coverage coming to you exclusively here on the Q. I'm John Walls was too Millman. Thank you for joining us. And we're now joined by a couple of gentlemen. Guess the dynamic duo of the container World it at Red Hat. Scott McCarty is the principal product manager of Containers. That open shift and Forell. Scott. Good to see you, sir. >> You could see it >> and been. Bree are Who's the principal product? Manager of Containers and Koro s, Of course. Also it Red hat Been. Thank you for joining us. First off, just your thought about show. Obviously, there's a lot of educational programming going on up down, big crowds, a lot of buzz. Good activity day one, at least from our perspective. How are you guys seeing this so far? >> I love it. I mean, it's been great so far. We just had us. I just had a session, just got out of it. was completely full of people trying to get in that were lined up against a wall. So it's been very exciting so far. >> Yeah. Ben. So it's one of >> my favorite times of the year, right? It's so much energy. Everybody comes with the exchange of ideas, just feedback and everything is one of my favorites. >> Oh, good. Right now s o l e made available publicly today for the first time. We talked about that a lot so far on the program, I'd like to hear from >> your side of the fence. Then what does that mean to you in terms of the container world and the impact that you, you know, from here going forward, you've got a whole new world of concern, I would think Scott. >> Yeah. I mean, with the relic, it's it's >> exciting because we're releasing, uh, you know, a lot of new tools around containers, >> a ton of new operational, you know, management capabilities. I mean, it's just it's an exciting release, Ben. It's a It's a big step forward, right? Every single release is a big deal, and we look at the container space. It's evolved a lot in the past for five years right when we came out. Seven. So technology's matured, Really, it's Ah, it's a smooth, easy experience to get to the release. And if lots going into it a lot, >> Yeah, so, Scott, It's funny. I think back. Turn back. Five years ago, we had a lot of jokes about doctors. You mean the pants? Because container ization and, you know, limits, containers and everything. That was something most people hadn't heard about here. Twenty nineteen, You said, There's, you know, crowds trying to get in the door. And it's not what but there really digging in and understand the tools we give a little bit of. You know what? What's what's with the excitement these days? Where are the customers? And you know what? What do you digging into >> with them? Yeah, well ah, >> funny example. So I asked I asked this last session, You know, raise your hand if you've used containers. If you just even fired up a container before and everyone raise your hand. And now, five years ago, that was, like one person >> and then even last you worked for Google. Yeah. Even last >> year that it was still maybe forty percent of the people, and now it's one hundred percent when they come to a session. So I mean, it's it is it is definitely changed, a tremendous amount. And now it's about So I joked, You know, five years ago is about using a chef knife, you know, just like you cut everything with it, right? You cut it. Vegetables, meat, whatever. And there was like one thing, and you just figured out Doctor and Cooper names was even on the radar Yet now it's about refining all the tools and getting to a place where, like, it's really getting excited, cause now we have special paring knives and chef knife and, you know, hibachi, knife and all these different, more specialized >> tools. So it's getting saying >> You think it's easy to >> adopt now to write, because years ago everyone was hedging their bets on you know what orchestration am I going to use? What piece? Um, I'm gonna build my stack. We have >> now. It's much, much clear, well defined. You know, Cooper Netease is dominant factor, right? Mean, open shift is huge, huge growth for us in that space. So I mean, it's it's it's a lot easier for customers to get in that game now than it was, you know? Yeah, just a couple years ago. Yeah, just a couple years ago. All right, so let's let's sticking out security a little bit because that was one of the big question marks in the early days. And you know something? We talk about it all the shows. It's it's definitely a focus of the real late launch. So where were the container world today and anything new or nuance that the audience should understand? I think on the security side you've got I have three or four big points there. One is the container tools of worshipping. Today they basically inherit the full Lennox security model. Right? So no longer do you have ah, privilege socket. That is, I kind of that weak factor, if you will, that's gone on. Really? So that's a big That's a big win right there. Beyond that, we've got a new crystal policies. You can set a central policy for the O. S. And that works in the containers well, so of you and enforce a particular kind of floor, if you will, of crypto. You could do that with relate for the host way and images as well. That's a that's a big part of it. And then we also have new tools that you can build smaller containers because how did the security is what is in my container? So if you're putting less less packages and content in that image, that's a much smaller Becker as well. Soon. >> Yeah. So, um, from from a security perspective, too, you know, you know the fact that now we have, um, kind of we've got a set of tools now that we can do experiments with things like ruthless, for example. You know, we're tech preview release of ruthless contract, so historically have always ran them, you know, as route. That's just how it works. I mean, we kind of figured it out one way and did it, and it was cool. And then at a certain point, we went all right, we need these other use cases where want developers to build to do it. For example, I just talked to a customer that it has four two hundred. I'm sorry, developers that are all running instances on their laptops PM's with pod man and build a running and, you know, using these tools to actually build containers, and they want to do ruthless bad. They want to do it in all their essentially all their environment, so that people are really hungry for a lot of these security features that we're working on now and relate. And it's something that we're releasing even as a vato. >> How did the capabilities changed in terms of relate now and what you have to provide the support? So what's transformed? And then what will be the need in order to build on that toe work on that and to make it more secure stables on so >> far? Well, I think I think you kind of have to dig into, like, a selection of what tools we decided to go in. Relate you'LL see that it's pod man. Build a scope. Here are the three main lower level tools that we have, and those tools are built serving a Unix mindset where it's like you can pipe things together and do things and use them collaboratively together to go remotely inspect images, pull them, build them from scratch, you know, run them locally, not as roots run them as a non route, contains things like that way or not at, you know, we're not releasing doctrine. Relate. And so so the transition. There is probably the biggest transition for users. Kind of realizing. Okay, we're going kind of broken this apart into three little or tools that we can then use Todd Man being the main one you go to. And then and then it's got a command line that's very similar. And so it's very easy, tio kind of transition over. But then you start to again kind of my my chef knife reference. You realize once you transition from, say, Dr Pod man, you kind of that's your chef knife. You kind of know what? How to start doing things that way. But then you start to get more refined and start to dig deeper into, you know, like, you know, into building scope. You essentially teacher. Yeah. >> You're good there. Yeah. I don't know. All right. Whatever he says. Scott >> Universal base image. Something we've talked a little bit about to tell us how that this is going to impact, you know, talk about everybody building things on their laptop. Seems like that's an extension of where this fits. Help help us understand? >> Yeah, I can't hide my enthusiasm. One how excited I am by Eva, and I will admit Ivory had a couple people come to me and say, This is the most exciting thing for me at Summit period And I think that's interesting because it's not actually something new and that, you would say from a technology perspective, how exciting is that? I don't know, but like it allows a set of collaboration that we've never been able to like, really, really do with a well base image historically, and I think the real base image is the highest quality basement temperament out there. But the problem is, even if you had something really simple, like so you had one university and that created some kind of science experiment in a container, and then they want to push that out to a public registry, then pull it down a different university and share it. They couldn't do that under the terms of the rail base image. So that was that. Was that create a little bit of friction with the FBI? Now that's completely gone. You can now run it anywhere you want, distribute anywhere you want, just the distribution alone is exciting. It and the fact that when you >> run it on rail, you >> build on rail, run on relics completely supported Israel. But you can now push it out to a public registry and let it sit out there and other people can >> use it in an experiment. So is the, you know, coming together of container ization in that distribution is that would kind of is really new with this, as opposed to the ways that I used to be able to share lennox images in the past. >> Well, all I think I think the challenge was you'd have some people that would want to do something. They want to build a distributed anywhere they want have that freedom. But they still wanted the quality of the rail basement. Now that created friction, right? So then they'd have to make an unnatural choice between, like, a fedora or I use, you know, well, maybe how you sent to less and your lying and none of those have all the things that I want, right? It was like a card game trying to get all the components that you want. You want sport, ability of Raoul. You want the security of the performance center center. But you couldn't. You couldn't distribute anywhere, so that created friction where you make on natural choices on basement. Now you be. I just The name implies that universal use it for anything you want. >> Same for communities to write because they don't want to make one that could freely distribute and then another like supported variant. They have more to maintain its more cycles and everything so simple. Find that it is a big deal. Yeah, >> and migration between base images is a linen migration, so it's frustrating to do. You don't want to do it. You want to build on one thing. And then I thought I distribute that thing anywhere. Well, then it's >> interesting, you know, go back a few years. There was this big movement to do, like just enough OS. How do I slim down the core? Os was I don't need everything that you know Realm necessarily does. So have we gotten over that? And we now gotten with you know, the things like you be I down to like a nice unit that's easily terrible and distributed. It's a good question. It's a topic that we'LL never go away. I don't think we're still. It's just changing its form, right? It still exists on the host. It's still exists in images. It's still exist with unit colonels and everything. I >> think where we >> are today. That was a really good spot, right? We've got several footprints of FBI. If there's several footprints of Rehl, including well, Core OS, which is like bedded version of rail into open shift right for a small form factor container host. So where we are today is very strong, but it's going to continue to evolve and get better. So, yeah, >> and we I mean, we look at the future and we're we're looking at ways toe. Make it even smaller, you know, you're always looking at, but yeah, Ben, mention there's three footprints of you B i today. There's a minimal image. There's a standard image, and then there's even a little bit bigger images allows you run multiple services, but you know that's the selection today. But in the future, we're looking at making the minimal one more minimal. Were even looking at, you know, making the standard one more minimal. >> Yeah, we're not done. Yeah, we're not done. You're never done. I guess the last thing I have on this, you know, multi cloud is such you know where customers are today. You know, you're gonna have the CEO Microsoft up on stage today. Two years ago, when I was here, it was the partnership between Red had an eight of us was all the discussion. I spoke to the Red Hat team, the Cloud show recently. So how does the tooling that you have fit in tow all the clouds discussion that I have when I talked to users? You know, one of the biggest lock ins they have is the skill set and the understanding of different tools and knowledge. And so you know, where we standardize and where do we still have work to do in this space? That's a big question. So yeah, I guess way addressing a multiple levels right at the core. The center Israel. Right. So well ate right now today on all those cloud platforms that you just name, right. So same say maybe I level guarantee that ten years hard work everything. It's it's everywhere. It's pervasive today. Level up, right. You've got the container images and stuff same story. They're Goa level. You've got open shift that is pervasive everywhere. And now we're doing really cool things. And Cooper Net. He's like a machine, a p I and all these other things toe actually control those individual cloud infrastructures which abstracts all of the customers ations per for food for him, which is >> powerful. So I think, for me was the most exciting things is the open shift for paradigm shift that shift from managing individual nodes to ship to managing the cluster as a computer, which we've said for what, twenty years? The sun? I think you know the cluster is the computer, you know? But we're really there today. Like we have a single E p I. Ben mention the machine, the machine, a PR machine configure operator. There's there's essentially automation built into the chip platform now that allows you to appoint the same on any cloud. So eight of us azure, you know, open stack, even on VM, where even on, you know, even in liver gonna look a laptop. There's a way to deploy it in the identical, you know, in an identical configuration. To me, that's exciting, because now I have one set of things I could learn. And then again in the standard red hat way. If you feel locked in, you can go use a Okay, Daddy, you can use the upstream. So you're never locked into our product, Which that's something. Get a lot with Kat drives, right? Like if you're locked in there, you're you're locked in there. There's no there's no, you know, open source version of that to get out of that. >> So you've talked about growth opportunities? You said, No, we're not done yet. Making the joke about your own work. You've talked about a twenty year evolution, you know, Just refer to that. And if you could look, you know, whether it's three, four, five, whatever years down the road, where's the big leap? Where's that have to come? Where do you think it's going to come in terms of the capabilities that you want to work on and what you want to be able to deliver from where you are right? Now >> get my crystal ball. Yeah. >> Yeah, Well, I think you've got one. Yeah. Then I have a lot of confidence in you, but if you had to say okay, this is this is atleast where we're gonna be. We're gonna have to spend a lot of our time because this this is the area that we think I think needs most attention. A >> couple of things, right? People only scale so much. So automation is an area that's bulletproof going forward, and it's going to evolve and take many forms. Right now, our big push has been on the operator space and obviously technologies like answerable that's going to continue to evolve and make make people scale better. That's probably one of the biggest ones. And I >> think that's one of the biggest ones. I think I think for me, probably where my mind wanders, is around partners and building that ecosystem in the open ship space similar to what you see in the realm. Because system today I think three, four years from now you're going to see it really exploded at ABC that I already see it exploding. But by then you'LL see it maturing and you'LL really see. I think if you look at the operator paradigm, I'm very excited by that because it's kind of like the Emma science dollar that Microsoft invented. You know that kind of made that that ubiquitous that install experience. Except that operators make it you because they install and managed a too. So I think, like, kind of to his point of, like making that the install really simple and then the operation of it. Over time, I think you're going to see a lot of I think. I think you couldn't fill a room and ask him, Like what I in fact, I did. I asked what an operator was, you know, and they they weren't super aware of it yet. But I think in the next five years, that will become the big with this way of just installing software. >> All right, well, we're going to check back in five. We'LL see how it turns out and been by then. Bring that crystal ball back with wood. Ok, I'll do a good deal. Thanks, gentlemen. Thanks for the time you haven't put on the Cuba as we continue our coverage here. Red Hat Summit. We're in Boston back with more right after this

>> Live from San Francisco. It's the cube covering IBM thing twenty nineteen brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to Mosconi North here in San Francisco. I'm student like co host David Dante. You're watching four days of live wall to wall coverage here at IBM. Think twenty nineteen. Happy to welcome back to the program first time in her new role. And she's also moved back to David, my home area of the Boston Massachusetts F area. Stephanie Sherice, who's now the vice president and general manager of Red Hat Enterprise. Lennox Business Unit. That red hat Stephanie. Thanks so much for joining. >> What's my pleasures to It's great to be back with you both. >> All right, Stephanie, be back. You know, I happen to notice quite a few IBM. Er's obviously know you. We've had you on our program and many of the IBM shows in the past. So tell us, what's it like being back at one of the Big Blue shows? >> No, it's great. It's great. As you know, I somewhat grew up at IBM might. I had seventeen years. I know so many people in the thing you miss most is in the network. So it's been it's a great opportunity to be here. Catch up with old friends, Talked to new colleagues. Great. What brought >> you to Red hat? I mean, like, you say, long career at IBM, and it was obviously prior to the acquisition, so you didn't know that was coming? What was the lore? >> So I'd say a couple of things clearly, as you know, I became a student of the Lenox Space while I was in while I was at I B M in the Power Systems unit. So fascinated for what Lennox has taught the industry about. I always say Lennox Lennox taught the world how development is meant to be done through open source in the innovation of a community. So that was a thrilling aspect for me to join. Also, I think I truly believe in the open hybrid, multi cloud strategy that Red Hat has had actually for years. Now. I think open source is all about choice and flexibility. It's what Lennox provides and moving forward their strategy around having a management portfolio, having a Cooper Netease platform all built upon being able to consume Lennox wherever and however you want it, I believe in the strategy. So it's been really exciting, and having the rail aspect is fantastic. >> So, Stephanie, you're right. You own that. Really? The core of red hats business. You know, Red Hat Enterprise Lennox, You know, we've been covering this space heavily for years, and everything that redheads doing comes back to, you know, that Lennox Colonel and there Ah, lot of people don't really understand that. The business model say it's like, Oh, well, you know, red hat cells free and, oh, that's a service model and things like that bring us inside your business and what's exciting and dynamic and happening in that space. >> It's It's such an incredible time. I couldn't ask for a better job, but I love the linen space for a couple of things. As you look at all the things that are changing in the industry today, I always say to customers, you may not know the applications. You'll run next year in three years, in five years, you may not know where you'll want to run them. What you do know it's they'll run on Lennox, right? It's the fastest growing operating system in the industry today. It's number one choice of developers. So, as you look to see, what can you do to prepare for the innovation Its pick your Lennox and Red hat has done an incredible job of making a consumable. If you look at the hundreds of thousands of packages out there, an open source, you take that you pull it into. Really, I feel what well delivers bread had. Enterprise Lennox delivers is an ecosystem. It's a trusted ecosystem. We test the team does an incredible job of testing a breadth of hardware, everything from, you know, X eighty six systems to power systems. Dizzy, too, you know, in video G, D G X. So way test all of that and then all the way up to the applications. We pull that ecosystem with us now, our goal is to be able to provide that anywhere. So you take that capability whether you do it. Bare metal, virtual machine, public cloud, private cloud. Now you move into containers. You know, everything we do in rail translates overto open shift. Whether you consume it as a private cloud and open stack or containerized in open shift, all of that ecosystem follows through. So it really is. When I look at is the bedrock of the of the entire portfolio for red hat, and we really are at Enterprise software company Today we pull in management with things like answerable and satellite. You pull all that together. Automation of the storage portfolio. It's just such an exciting time. It's a real transition from going from a no s company and building >> upon that. >> I mean truly an enterprise software company from multiple clouds. >> So I was talking about more about that because open shift gets all the buzz. Ostensibly, it was a key linchpin of the acquisition that I being made. Well, What's the connection between between rail and the rest of red hats? Portfolio. Maybe you could connect those dogs. >> That would be so, as you look at, and I'm an infrastructure person for a long time, as you know, and coming from the infrastructure up space, most was purchased from an infrastructure of you for many years. Now. It's all about how you consume the applications and the infrastructure comes in and feeds it from an application. Space containers are amazing, right? They bring that incredible flexibility started. Stop it, move it lifted, shifted Everything. Thing is, from an application perspective, it's simple. From a Lennox perspective, it's actually much more complicated, you know, in the days of bare metal or even V EMS. Quite clean cut between your systems, your operating system. You're hyper visor in your application. Once you move into containerized worlds, you've split up your Lennox. You have user space in your container. You have Cooper netease making ten times the number of calls to the colonel space that the hyper visor ever did. Much more complicated. So as you move into that space of Kou Burnett ease and containers and orchestration, you know, you really want someone who knows Lennox because the clinic space is more complicated, bringing simplicity from a container and application >> performance management, security changes >> Absolutely automation. So really is as we look at the portfolio, we have a You know, we believe strongly in the customer experience, we deploy with rail that trusted ecosystem. In order to be able to take that into a container world, we need to be able to get access into the user space into the coup. Burnett ease and into the colonel because they're so intimately twine entwined. So as we transition that open shift is the way we delivered, we build upon the same rail. Colonel, we used the user space. >> So, Stephanie, like you, I'm an infrastructure person. And, you know, my background is in, you know, the OS. And, you know, down that environment, there's been a wave of, you know, just enough operating system. How do we slice these up? I look of Cora West, which read, Had acquired was originally a We're going to slim down, you know, the colonel and make things easily. Where's the innovation still happening? Lenox And, well, you know why is still Lin It's going to be relevant going forward. You talked about, you know, containers, things like server list all threatened to say, Oh, well, you know, my application development person shouldn't have to think about it. But why is it still important? >> Yeah. So you know whether things I love about my role is with the position that red hat has in the industry with rail. And, you know, we have Ah, we have a approximately fifty thousand set of that fifty thousand customers who use rail and trust us. So as we look at how we drive innovation, I love the ability to kind of help redefine what an operating system is. And you know, certainly we bring added value did in real seven and now we have the relic beta out. So we're continuously adding things. We added in a few things about consumption base. We added app streams which separates out the ability to update your user space at a different rate in pace than your core. A court sort of based level which allows you to do faster updates in your user space. Continue on your core. Run multiple versions of your user space. It's a fantastic way to pull an innovation faster. We've also done a number of things with our capabilities around taking that first step into container ization, including tools like Build a pod man scope EOE so that within the operating system itself you conduced those based kind of capabilities for container ization. That first step. And then when you need orchestration, you can move over to open ship. So there's a ton of innovation left in the operating system. Security is core to everything we do. S o the innovation around security remains a constant were in the typical open source fashion. We've released the Beta here in November. We're gathering great feedback. We have about one hundred and forty high touch beta customers who were working hand in hand with to get feedback. And we're looking forward to bringing rally to market >> What? One of the big pieces of feedback you're getting a lot of people excited about in terms of Really. >> Certainly everyone looks to us for their security. So that's been that's been a great place for us. We had work to do on making it easier to consume as we continue to drive things with developers. And we have a new portal that's allowing sort of a single user space view those kinds of consumption. Things are very important today because, as you said, you want skills to be easily transferrable. Easily updated s o A lot of the consumption based things we've been >> working on, >> um, as well as thie tooling? >> Yeah. You talk about that skill set that's one of the biggest challenges in a multi cloud world is if I'm going to live in all these iron mint, what's the same and what's different communities is only a small piece. But Lennox is, you know something that's transferrable. What are you seeing? What are you hearing from customers in that regard? >> Yeah, I think, and that's one thing. We're working hard to try and make sure that you know, I think like when you when you buy a house, right, you can buy a house. You could buy an apartment building in Pine Office building. What doesn't change is the land underneath. You need that land to be stable, and you know you can build whatever you want on it. And that's how we view our lennox consuming anywhere you want. It's always secure. It's always stable in multiple public clouds. I think really it's the flexibility when I look at that pull open hybrid cloud space, customers aren't looking to buy a product. They're looking to establish a relationship with someone who's going to provide them what they need to do today on their mission critical applications but have the flexibility going forward to take them where they want to go. They may pick Ascent one public cloud today. They want to move it in two years and three years to a different public cloud. It's establishing that relationship to be able to consume that Lennox, preserve those skills but have the flexibility. And tomorrow >> Red has made a number of storage acquisitions recently. Obviously, the tight relationship between the operating system and the I O how do you look at that space? The opportunity, You know, the TAM talk a little bit about the storage moments >> we have so clearly we have our storage division. We've been working very closely with them to build up capabilities. Largely, you'll see it with open shift. The container ization and storage management within containers is tricky business. So as we pulled together the collaboration between our storage unit as well as our container unit, that's providing real capabilities for that ease of consumption. How do you bring the storage with the container deploys. My team has worked very closely with the management team as you pull in the management aspect with things like automation and management satellite capabilities, answerable is an amazing tool. Amazing tool. In fact, we've pulled in things like system rolls directly into the operating system so that you can set up things like networking. You. Khun, set up storage with answerable playbooks in a much simpler way. That's allowing us to get that ease of consumption. It is about, you know, David's fully about being able for us Tow leverage the portfolio. How do we allow clients to take the journey using Lennox from everything from bare metal and VM out to container ization, Pull in multiple clouds, get the storage features and functions and get the automation and management. >> So, Stephanie, you would looked at and partnered with Red had quite a bit before you had joined the company. What surprised you coming inside the company? Is there anything but being on the inside now that you look back here like, Wow, I didn't expect that or was different than what I had seen from the outside. >> You know, I think what I think, what I love and surprise me a bit was the passion of open source. You know, you look at any company from the outside and and certainly as a student from the outside, you look at the business and how the business is doing and how it's growing in his study. All of that, Well, you don't get to see from the outside is the open source passion of the developers who I get to work with every day. I mean, they just they understand the market. They do it as a hobby on the weekends. It's it's It's just unbelievable, right? I love being I'm up in Westford is, you know, with all the developers, it's great. >> So I'm gonna ask you a lot of talk about the culture, you know, between Red Hat and IBM. You you've been in both camps. Now what do you thoughts in the culture >> s O? You know, I think when I look at the culture, I love the culture at Red Hat. As you know, I've been in many places at IBM and multiple divisions and multiple units. There's a lot of autonomy between the business units at IBM from my own experience. And there's so many people I miss working with colleagues at IBM that, you know I worked in and head with, and WeII brought amazing things to mark it. So I look forward to working with them again. You know, I always look for those groups that are passionate, and there's a lot of passionate IBM is I miss working with. So I look forward to bringing that back >> seventy one to give you the final word. We know. You know Jim Whitehurst has got a president and he's doing later today. I believe Red Hat has a has a good presence there, tells Red Hat here it think. What should be people be looking >> for? Yeah, I think so. Clearly, there's a lot of buzz and excitement about what both Red Hat and IBM Khun do together for the open hybrid cloud. I come at it now from a full Lennox perspective, and I couldn't be more excited about what Lennox is going to deliver for innovation and for customers to consume an innovation as we pull in and look, look to all these discussion that will happen with Jim and Jeannie on stage today, it's it's great. We'll be able to take what Red Hat has done and scale it now with the help of IBM, so very excited about the future. All right, >> Well, Stephanie, we really appreciate your sharing. Congratulations. You're going >> to see about thanks for the time. >> So we still have, you know, about three more days left here at IBM Thinking, of course, the Cube will be at Red Hat Summit twenty nineteen, which is back in Boston, Massachusetts, for Dave A lotta arms to minimum. Thanks for watching the cue

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America 2018, brought to you by Redhat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone, this is theCUBE's live coverage here in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman breaking down all the action, talking to all the top people, influencers, executives, start-ups, vendors, the foundation itself. We're here with two co-leads of Kubernetes at Google, legends in the Kubernetes industry. Tim Hockin and Brian Grant, both with Google, both co-leads at GKE. Thanks for joining us, legends in the industry. Kubernetes is still a short life, but still, being there from the beginning, you guys were instrumental at Google building out and contributing to this massive tsunami of 8000 people here. Who would have thought? >> It's amazing! >> It's a little overwhelming. >> It's almost like you guys are celebrity-status here inside this crowd. How's that feel? >> It's a little weird. I don't buy into the celebrity culture for technologists. I don't think it works well. >> We agree, but it's great to have you on. Let's get down to it. Kubernetes, certainly the rise of Kubernetes has grown. It's now pretty mainstream, people look at that as a key linchpin for the center of Cloud Native. And we see the growth of Cloud, you guys are living it with Google. What is the importance of Kubernetes? Why is it so important? Fundamentally at it's core, has a lot of impact, what's the fundamental reason why it's so successful? >> I think fundamentally Kubernetes provides a framework for driving migration towards Cloud Native patterns across your entire operational infrastructure. The basic design of Kubernetes is pretty simple and can be applied to automating pretty much anything. We're seeing that here, there are at least more than half a dozen talks about how people are using the Kubernetes to control plane to manage their applications or workflows or functions or things other than just core Kubernetes, containers, for example. Cloud Native is about... One of the things I'm involved with is I'm on the Technical Oversight Committee of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. I drove the update of the Cloud Native definition. If you're trying to operate with high velocity, deploying many times a day, if you're trying to operate at scale, especially with containers and functions, scale is increasing and compounding as people break their applications into more and more micro services. Kubernetes really provides the framework for managing that scale and for integrating other infrastructure that needs to accommodate that scale and that pace of change. >> I think Kubernetes speaks to the pain points that users are really having today. Everybody's a software company now, right? And they have to deploy their software, they have to build their software, they have to run their software, and these things, they build up pain. When it was just a little thing, you didn't have to worry about scale, internet-scale and web-scale, you could tolerate it within your organization. But more and more, you need to deploy faster, you need to automate things. You can't afford to have giant staffs of people who are running your applications. These things are all part of Kubernetes purvey. I think it just spoke to people in a way, they said I suffer from that every day and you just made it go away. >> And what's the core impact now? Because then now people are seeing it, what is the impact to the organizations that are rethinking their entire operation from all parts of the staff, from how they buy infrastructure, which is also Cloud, you see some Cloud there, and then that deploying applicant, what's the real impact? >> I think the most obvious, the most important part here is the way it changes how people operate and how they think about how they manage systems. It no longer becomes scary to update your application. It's just a thing you do. If you can do it with high confidence, you're going to do it more often, which means you get features and bugs fixed and you get your roll-outs done quicker. It's amazing, the result that it can have on the user experience. A user reports a bug in the morning, and you fix it in the afternoon, and you don't worry about that. >> You bring up some really interesting points. I think back 10 years ago, from a research standpoint, we were looking at how can the enterprise do some of the things that the hyperscale vendors were doing. I feel over the last 10 years, every time Google released one of the great scientific papers, we'd all get a peer inside and say like, oh hey. When I went to the first DockerCon and heard how Google was using containers, when Kubernetes first came out, it's like, oh wow, maybe the rest of us will get to do something that Google's been doing for the last 10 years. Maybe bring us back a little bit to Borg and how that led to Kubernetes. Are we still all the rest of us just doing whatever Google did 10 years ago? >> Yeah, Tim and I both worked on Borg previously, Tim on the node-agent side and I worked on the control-point side in Borg One lesson we really took from Borg is that really you can run all types of applications. People started with stateless applications and we started with that because it's simpler in Kubernetes. But really it's just a general management control plane for managing applications. With the model of one application per container, then you can manage the applications in a much more first-class way and unlock a lot of opportunities for automation in the management control plane. At Google, several years ago when we started, Google had already gone through the transition of moving most of its applications to Borg. It was after that phase that Google started its Cloud effort and the rest of the world was doing VMs. When Docker emerged, we were... In the early phases, Tim mentioned this in our keynote yesterday of open-sourcing our container runtime. When Docker emerged, it is clear it had a much better user experience for the way folks were managing applications outside of Google and we just pivoted to that immediately. >> When Docker first came out, we took a look at it, we, my node-agent team in Borg, and we went, yeah, it's kind of like poor man's version of Borglet. We sort of ignored it for awhile because we were already working on our open-source effort. We were open-sourcing it, not really to change the world and make everybody use it, but more so that we can have conversations with people like the Linux kernel community. When we said we need this feature, and they'd say well why, why do you need this, we could actually demonstrate for them why we needed it. When Docker landed, we saw the community building, and building, and building. That was a snowball of its own, right? As it caught on, we realized we know what this is going to. We know once you embrace the Docker mindset that you very quickly need something to manage all of your Docker nodes once you get beyond two or three of them. We know how to build that. We got a ton of experience here. We went to our leadership and said, please, this is going to happen with us or without us and I think the world would be better if we helped. >> I think that's an interesting point. You guys had to open-source to do collaboration with Linux to get that flywheel going for you guys out of necessity. Then when Docker validated the community acceptance of hey, we can just use containers, a lot of magic will happen, it hit the second trigger point. What happened after that? You guys just had a debate internally? Is this another MapReduce? What's happening? Like, we should get behind this. I knew there was a big argument or debate, I should say, within Google. At that time there were a lot of conversations, how do we handle this? >> That was around the time that Google Compute Engine, our infrastructures and service platform, was going GA and really starting to get usage. So then we had an opportunity to enable our customers to benefit from the kinds of techniques we had been using internally. So I don't think the debate was whether we should participate, it was more how. For example, should we have a fully managed product, should we have to do open-source, should we do managed open-source, so those were really the three alternatives that we were discussing. >> Well, congratulations, you guys done great work and certainly a huge impact to the industry. I think it's clear that the motivation to have some sort of standardization, de facto standard, whatever word can be used to kind of let people be enabled on top or below Kubernetes is great. I guess the next question is how do you guys envision this going forward as a core? If we're going to go to decomposition with low levels of granularity tying together through the network and cloud-scale and the new operating law, we'll have comments in this, how does the industry maintain the greatness of what Kubernetes is delivering and bring new things to market faster? What's your vision on this? >> I talked a little bit about this this week. We put a ton of work into extension points, extensibility of the system trying to stay very true to the original vision of Kubernetes. It is a box, and Kubernetes fits inside a box, and anything that's outside the box has to stay outside the box. This gives us the opportunity to build new ecosystems. You can see it in networking space, you can see it in storage space where whole sort of cottage industries are now springing up around doing networking for Kubernetes and doing storage for Kubernetes. And that's fantastic! You see projects like Istio, which I'm a big fan of, it's outside of Kubernetes. It works really well with Kubernetes, it's designed on top of Kubernetes infrastructure, but it's not Kubernetes. It's totally removable and you don't need it. There's systems like Knative which are taking the serverless idea and upleveling Kubernetes into serverless space. It's happening all over the place. We're trying to sort of pray fanatically, say, no, we're staying this big and no bigger. >> It's a really... From an engineering standpoint, it's much simpler if I just build a product and build everything into it. All those connection points, I go back to my engineering training. It's like every connection point is going to be another place where it could fail. Now it's got all these APIs, there's all the security issues, and things like that. But what I love what I heard right here is some of the learnings that we've had in open-source is these are all of these individual components that most of them can stand on their own. They don't even have to be with Kubernetes, but altogether you can build lots of different offerings. How do you balance that? How do you look at that from kind of a design and architecture standpoint? >> So one thing I've been looking at is how do we ensure compatibility of workloads across Kubernetes in all different environments and different configurations. How do we ensure that the tools and other systems building an ecosystem work with Kubernetes everywhere? So this is why we created the Conformance Program to certify that the critical APIs that everybody depends on behave the same way. As we try to improve the test coverage of the conformance, people are focusing on these areas of the system that are highly pluggable and extensible. So for example, the kubelet in the node has a pluggable container runtime, pluggable networks, pluggable storage systems now with CSI. So we're really focusing on ensuring we have good coverage of the Pod API, for example. And other parts of the system, people have swapped out an ecosystem, whether it's kube-proxy for our Kubernetes services or the scheduler. So we'll be working through those areas to make sure that they have really good coverage so users can deploy, say, a Helm Chart or their takes on a configuration or whatever, however they manage their applications and have that behave the same way on Kubernetes everywhere. >> I think you guys have done a great job of identifying this enabling concept. What is good enabling technology? Allowing others to do innovation around it. I think that's a nice positioning. What are the new problem areas that you guys see to work on next? Now I see things are developing in the ecosystem. You mentioned the Istio service mesh and people see value in that. Security is certainly a big conversation we've been having this week. What new problem areas or problem sets you guys see emerging that are needed to just tackle and just knock down right away? >> The most obvious, the thing that comes up sort of in every conversation of users now is multi-cluster, multi-cloud, hybrid, whether that's two clouds or on-prem plus cloud or even across different data centers on your premises. It's a hard topic. For a long time Kubernetes was able to sort of put a finger in our ears and pretend it didn't exist while we built out the Kubernetes model. Now we're at a place where we've crossed the adoption chasm. We're into the real adoption now. It's a real problem. It actually exists and we have to deal with it, and so we're now looking at how's it supposed to work. Philosophically, what do we think is supposed to happen here? Technologically, how do we make it happen? How do these pieces fit together? What primitives can we bring into Kubernetes to make these higher level systems possible? >> Would you consider 2019 to be the year of multi-cloud, in terms of the evolution of trying to tackle some of these things from latency? >> Yeah, I'm always reluctant to say the year of something because... >> Someone has to get killed, and someone dies, and someone's winning. >> It's the year of the last desktop. >> It's the year of something. (laughs) EDI, I'm just saying. >> I think multi-cluster is definitely the hot topic right now. It's certainly almost every customer that we talk to through Google and tons of community chatter about how to make this work. >> You've seen companies like NetApp and Cisco, for instance, and how they're been getting a tail-wind from the Kubernetes. It's been interesting. You need networks. They have a lot of networks. They can play a role in it. So it's interesting how it's designed to allow people to put their hands in there without kind of mucking up the main... >> Yeah, I think that really contributes to the success of Kubernetes, the more people that can help add value to Kubernetes, more people have a stake in the success of Kubernetes, both users and vendors, and developers, and contributors. We're all stakeholders in this endeavor now and we all share common goals, I think. >> Well guys, final question for you. I know we got to break on time. Thanks for coming. I really appreciate the time. Talk about an area of Kubernetes that most people should know about that might not know about. In other words, there was a lot of hype around Kubernetes, and it's warranted, it's a lot of buzz, what's an important area that's not talked about much that people should know more about it and pay attention to within the Kubernetes realms of that world? Is there any area that you think is not talked about enough that should be focused on in the conversations, the press, or just in general? >> Wow, that's a challenging question. I spent a lot of my time in the infrastructure side of Kubernetes, the lower end of the stack, so my brain immediately goes to networking and storage and all the lower level pieces there. I think there's a lot of policy knobs that Kubernetes has that not everybody's aware of, whether those are security policies or network policies. There's a whole family of these things and I think we're going to continue to acree more and more policy as more people come up with real-use cases for doing stuff. It's hard to keep that all in your mind, but it's really valuable stuff down there. >> For programmability, it's like a Holy Grail, really. Thoughts on the things that (chuckles) put you on the spot there? >> I think this question of how people should change what they were doing before if they're going to migrate to Kubernetes. To operate any workload, you need at least monitoring and you need really CI/CD if you want to operate with any amount of velocity. When you bring those practices to Kubernetes, should you just lift and shift those into Kubernetes or do you really need to change your mindset? I think Kubernetes really provides some capabilities that create opportunities for changing the way some things happen. I'm a big fan of GitOps, for example, in managing the resources to declaritively using version control as a source of truth and keeping that in sync with the state in your for live clusters. I think that enables a lot of interesting capabilities like instant disaster recovery, for example, migrations, new locations. There are some key folks here who are talking about that, giving that message, but we're really at the early stages there. >> All right, well great to have you guys on. Thanks for the insight. We've got to wrap up. Thanks Brian, thanks Tim, appreciate it. Live coverage here, theCUBE is at KubeCon, Cloud Native, Cloud 2018. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, we'll be back after this short break.

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering the AWS Accenture executive summit. Brought to you by Accenture. >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of the AWS executive summit, I'm Rebecca Knight, your host, we're here at the Venetian in Las Vegas. We have two guests for this segment, we have Mike Moore, Senior Principal Accenture Research, and Chris Wegmann, Managing Director Accenture AWS business group, thank both you so much for coming on theCUBE, and you for returning to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me back, it's good to be back. >> So Mike I want to start with you and talk about your recent research which is entitled Discover Where the Value's Hiding: How to Unlock the Value of Your Innovation Investments. I like it, 'cause it just makes me think that innovation's just hiding somewhere in the corner, maybe underneath this desk. So talk a little bit about why companies can't find the innovation, and how they're failing at this. We'll get to the rays of hope later, but talk a little bit about what the problem is as you see it. >> Well, it certainly seems to be hiding for a lot of companies. Based on the research that we did, we found that over the course of the past five years large income companies like our own, and then also start-ups, have spent a combined 3.2 trillion dollars on innovation, which is obviously a huge sum. But when we looked at the rate of return on that investment, incumbent companies, we found it was actually declining by 27% over the course of that five year period. So there's a clear disconnect there in terms of what companies are doing. >> So, why are companies, why are so many companies not good at this? >> Well, we asked 840 executives from around the world exactly that question. And what we found is that for the vast majority of them who have been increasing their investments in innovation, they weren't seeing a great return, and what we found is that many of them were focused on incremental innovation, just small tweaks and adjustments to their products and services. But that's really not enough to get new customers in this day and age. But there was some reason for optimism, around about 14% of our respondents said that actually they were translating their investments in innovation into accelerated growth, they were outperforming their peers in terms of profitability, in terms of their market growth and they actually expected to continue to do that over the course of the next four to five years. >> So, I want to talk about that 14%, that rarefied group, but I want to bring you into the conversation Chris and just talk a little bit about the relationship between Accenture and AWS, and how you approach innovation, and how you help clients think about their innovation and driving ingenuity and creativity in their businesses. >> So Accenture and AWS have been partners for over twelve years, even before the first AWS service hit the market, Accenture was starting to use it in our labs at that point, and looking at how we could leverage S3 to really innovate on, and we've carried that tradition on for a while now. A couple years ago we sat down and really looked at what our enterprise customers were struggling with as they moved to the Cloud, and at that point innovation wasn't quite the topic yet, it was really how do we use Cloud to get better returns on our investment, better TCOs, things like that, and now we've seen that turn, as AWS has created more and more capabilities and solutions and offerings, our customers are really wanting to figure out how they innovate. They go and ask AWS "How do you innovate?" And that's their number one, one of their biggest EBCs is how do they innovate. So, we looked at it and said, that's great, how do we take that to the next level? How do we fix these failures that're happening and what we've seen is most customers are in this stop and go innovation traffic, I like to call it. There's people that're whizzing by them, the 14% are whizzing by them in the fast lane, so the question is how do you get them out of that stop and go traffic, into that fast lane, and, There's no lack of ideas, they have tons of ideas on how they can innovate, how they can use drones, how they can use all this. The ideas are out there, but taking those and turning those into operationalized assets that're continuously working, continuously growing, continuously maturing is where they struggle. >> And the question, when companies would ask you how do you innovate, I mean it is this question, but as you're implying it sounds as though it's a very, you have to have some discipline around it, there has to be real processes around the innovation, it's not just throw a bunch of creative people in a room together. >> No, that's great, you can do the creative people and they come up with the great ideas and there's no lack of those, but then you've got to operationalize those and go through the disciplining to take those, pick which ones are going to drive value, invest in those, operationalize those, and take them from a proof of concept or a pilot or whatever you want to call it and actually turn it into something that gets used every day, and what we've been focusing on with AWS is how do you get out of that, take what's out of that ideation stage, operationalize it using the full set of AWS services, and then how do you continue to run that and prove it going forward. >> So Mike, the 14%, what are they doing? What makes them different? >> Well I think there's lots of things that stand out, but there are really three things that came of the research, so firstly that group of companies is outcome led, as you were just saying, they're not just relying on the method, the genius in the garage tinkering away, but they're putting a real set of processes around the innovation activities that they're pursuing. Then they're linking those activities to clear operational and financial metrics. And then secondly they're disruption minded, so unlike the other companies that aren't performing well, they're really focused on investing in disruptive technologies that have the potential to create entirely new markets. And then finally, they're change orientated, so they're not just using innovation to develop new products and services, but they're also using it to drive more fundamental change across their organizations. And one of the principle changes that they're making is that they're becoming what we call network powered, so they're not just relying on their own internal innovation but they're drawing on a wide ecosystem of partners, like AWS, to really supercharge the rate at which they innovate. >> So those are the characteristics, what are you seeing on their ground, can you give us some specific examples of how they're taking those characteristics and what they're actually doing? >> I think you see companies set up and grow these innovation pods, so what we see customers doing is expanding those beyond just one pod. So, not just focusing on one part of their organization to do this, bringing that into a central location, creating a hub of pods and capabilities using everything, AWS services, using DevOps, doing all the cool stuff that's out there, but operationalizing that and getting to that center of excellence where they're actually seeing it end to end and they're not just jumping from one problem to then next. And once that graduates out, they have an organization waiting to take that on and continuing that journey while the next set comes in. So it's this process, it's this ongoing kind of chain of different problems coming in, being solved, and graduating out the other end. >> Is this a technology issue or is it a culture issue? >> The technology is there, I don't see it as a technology issue, I see it as a cultural issue, a change issue, a organizational issue, a resource issue, you got to find the talent that does that, you got to have the operational discipline to lead this stuff, and you have to go through that change. And we're seeing I think a lot of our customers struggle with that, and they want to learn how Accenture's done it, they want to learn how AWS has done it because obviously they've been very successful at it. >> And in terms of the cultural, the change management challenges that you're talking about, those are harder to overcome. So, do you have any best practices from your own experiences with it? >> We've obviously, Accenture's been in this game for a long time, whether it's innovation or whether we called it solution integration, whatever we called it, change was always a big part of that. So, a lot of those same change principles that we've used for twenty, thirty years still apply here. We see, you need very top down ownership and sponsorship, so from the very top down, whether that's the CEO, the CDO, the CIO, whoever it is they have to be 100% behind this, and have to be the cheerleaders. They have to be the people that're going to go get on stage, at re:Invent or other conferences and be that, this is how we're going, so you need that lead, and then you need very strong leadership underneath it that have gone through the journey before, this isn't the first time they've done it, they know where the potholes are in that road, they know what the signs are when they're going down the wrong way and how to get out of that. So you got to have those two key levels of experience. >> And to bring the others on-board. >> Absolutely, and they have to be the visionaries, they have to be the people guiding them through that, and you know, if you've got those people, if they're very strong-willed, very luminaries, those people will follow, and they'll follow them through that journey. And then they also got to go sell that to the rest of the organization, 'cause it's a change for the rest of the organization, the business is now much more engaged in that process, they're not just sending the requirements over the fence, they're very much engaged, they've got to understand and go through that agile transformation and understand when they're getting capabilities, what those capabilities are, so they need to go through that new operational paradigm that we're running in. >> So, finally, we're talking about innovation and then in particular AWS and Accenture, almost as the use cases here, how would you describe the innovation engine at AWS, Accenture in terms of the report that you've just published? It's obviously, I mean AWS is the biggest part of Amazon, I mean the high-growth engine of Amazon, and obviously a huge growth engine for Accenture too, so how would you characterize it Mike? >> Well, I think if we look at the three factors I was talking about before, being outcome led, being disruption minded, and being change orientated, then the relationship between Accenture and AWS really exhibits all of those three things, so in terms of being outcome led, Accenture has always been an organization that's laser focused on delivering results, delivering high performance, delivering value for our clients, and so is AWS. In terms of being disruption minded, we're innovating on the Cloud, using AWS to bring genuinely new and groundbreaking products and services to our clients. One of my favorite ones of those that we worked on in the UK, is our partnership with AWS and Age UK, which is a charity that helps the elderly and we're developing products and services for the elderly that helps them feel more connected to their family, and that's really opening up a brand new market. And then finally in terms of being change orientated, well, it's a relationship that really personifies being network powered and bringing the power there to multiple organizations that we can develop great products and services for our clients. >> Great, well Mike, Chris, thank you both so much for coming on theCUBE, it was a really fun conversation. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thanks. >> I'm Rebecca Knight, we will have more of theCUBE's live coverage of the AWS executive summit coming up in just a little bit.

>> Announcer: Live, from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering Dell Technologies World 2018, brought to you by Dell EMC and its ecosystem partners. >> And welcome to our live coverage here. Day three at Dell Technologies World 2018. We are live in Las Vegas. Hope you've been with us for the first two days. We have a great lineup here for you on day three. I'm John Wallace, along with Stu Miniman. Glad to have you along, Stu, it's always great to work with you. >> Thanks, John. Same for you. >> Good week so far for you? >> It's been excellent, my voice is holding up, it's been a long week. >> You're a busy man. >> Excited to get all of this, and heck, I'll be seeing Dan again next week at the big show. >> Dan McConnell's becoming like, he's like not even an annual visitor, you're like a bimonthly visitor here on theCUBE, right? VP of Converged Platforms. >> Stu: Fifth time, you get a free sandwich. >> Yeah, that's right, I got to punch card, I got to sign and get it punched each time. >> Yeah, nice to have you, Dan. Nice to have you back, good to see you again. Alright, let's just talk about the show, first off. Here we are, day three, we talked a little bit yesterday about customer discussions, conversations, so now you've had a little bit of time to soak this in and what you've heard from folks, and what would be your takeaway here? >> Sure, may spin this one a little bit, may have an angle here. Tremendous interest in HCI, and I'm not saying that just because I'm in HCI. No, but it's a lot of good, solid feedback from customers. It's starting to shift more in the mainstream, right? So as we see customers deploy it, more workloads get deployed on top of it. There's a tremendous amount of interest in HCI. When we look at all the graphs of customer interviews we're doing and analyst discussions we're doing, HCI is right there at the top of the list, in terms of subjects that we're talking about. >> Can you quantify that? Are numbers at all out there floating around, in terms of growth, in terms of what... >> Oh, from the HCI side, yeah. Most analysts will agree, it's about 70 to 80 percent in growth year over year. I'd say, from a Dell perspective, we're doing 138 percent, so we're actually growing faster than market. A lot of that's due to, we've got a, one, we've been in the HCI business for a while, two, we take a portfolio approach. There's never any one size fits all, so we actually take a portfolio approach to HCI. We've got what are multiple different consumption models, one that is an appliance, this is the server, the hardware, the software, lifecycle managed in an appliance. And then the next layer is what we call rack scale. Obviously, HCI puts some pressure on the network, right? High network dependency. Rack scale, what rack scale does is include the networking components in that engineered system attribute. Pretested, pre-designed, inclusion of both the physical, as well as the virtual network, and across both of those consumption models, we have a stack that is very VMware-centric, right? VxRail, VxRack SDDC, and we have a stack that is what we call Open HCI. Supports multiple hypervisors, that is XC series on the appliance and VxRack Flex on the rack-scale solution, so portfolio approach, cover the whole market, and we're really seeing it blow up, it's great. >> Dan, it's interesting. I think back to when people were first trying to wrap their brains around this whole HCI thing, it was like, oh, okay, I took server and storage, kind of smashed it together, some software maybe in there, but it was, oh, this is small-end thing, it's maybe four nodes, maybe getting to eight nodes, but you talked about the VxRack Flex, which we've been watching ScaleIO since before the acquisition, and all that solutions. Much larger configuration, some people said, oh, it's not even HCI, because I've talked to some customers, well, I can do a storage-only configuration or I can do a full hyperconverged configuration. We've seen maturation and some segmentation in the marketplace, so you know, bring us inside that, from, you know, the Flex business, just what you're seeing, what differentiates it from some of the other options. >> Absolutely, I'd say it's flexible. (dog barking) Dog barking next door. >> John: On cue. >> On cue. >> There he is again. It's one of the philanthropic Dell outreach programs, it's comfort pets. >> Therapy dogs. >> Therapy dogs, thank you. So we're right next door, no reflection at all on the guests or the program or whatever. >> They're in day three, too. It's been a long conference for them. >> We're getting punchy, alright, back to Flex. >> Back to Flex. >> Just explaining, yeah. >> So, back to your point. Flex... is flexible. We've got customers from four nodes, all the way up to over, large enterprise customers over a thousand nodes. Matter of fact, about 45 percent of our business comes from Fortune 500, so when you think HCI, like you said, HCI started in what was VDI. We're going to pick a workload, VDI's kind of linearly scalable, HCI was a good fit. Nowadays, it's multiple workloads, right? That flexibility, agility, ease-of-scale, people are putting more and more workloads on top of it. VxRack Flex, we've got, when you talk about scalable, up to a thousand nodes, literally 30 million IOPS, right? So, performance, I think we've got it covered. So it's definitely maturing, some of those larger customers are running anywhere from database, all the way to mission-critical applications. >> Dan, I actually did a case-study of one of your larger global financial companies a few years ago. Want you to talk about what they saw this solution at. This was a foundation for their private cloud. They use, in certain regions, public cloud makes sense, but in a lot of areas, this is the foundational layer of private cloud. A lot of times, people, oh, HCI, it is what it is, it's some boxes and some software, but talk about the private cloud angle. >> This customer, it's actually a very interesting storyline. They started off doing what we would call do-it-yourself, build-your-own, and loved the technology, as is predominant with HCI, continued to scale. Bought a lot, added on, added on, and as they continued to add, continued having discussions with them, and they actually love the technology, would love to be able to automate more, would love to spend less time setting it up as it comes in. So they actually moved up that consumption pyramid into VxRack Flex, which comes, as opposed to do-it-yourself, comes shrink-wrapped, roll it in. So they actually designed their infrastructure, their data center around what they call pods. Fairly large pods, but they've changed the consumption units on how they consume IT. They'll actually wheel in Flex pods, that's their new unit of consumption. Now, a Flex pod is... >> Not to be confused with another product called FlexPod. >> Oh, gosh, yes, VxRack Flex pods. Yes, absolutely. >> We unfortunately have run out of words in our industry here, so yeah. >> I'm sure you'll find something in the vernacular that will apply here. >> I'll try and burn that one from my memory, but good catch. >> So that's one use case. Just in general now, so what is the value prop for a customer today, as opposed to what kind of flexibility you're giving them, we've heard about performance, but how are people actually putting it to use for them, and what are they doing better, do you think, because of that? >> I'll start off, one, which is an architectural discussion, and I'll crunch this down pretty small. In the beginning, there was DAS, direct-attached storage, and it was fast, and it was easy to manage, as long as you had to manage one. You get a hundred units, and it was siloed storage, and it was hard, so the world came up with SAN. It's consolidated storage, it's great. I can carve it up, I can manage it from one place, and then we came up with flash, SSD, blindingly fast, and that storage controller started to be a choking point, so we moved the storage back into the server, a la HCI. >> Actually, we called it Server SAN for that specific reason. >> Exactly right, exactly right. Initial ventures into some of HCI, you could only scale the storage or only scale the HCI clusters as big as one given cluster. So you started building somewhat of silos of HCI. One of the beauties of Flex and VxFlex OS storage software is it can scale across multiple clusters. Those clusters can be VMware, they can be BareMetal, they can be Linux, so you start to gain all the advantages of HCI, flexibility, agility, kind of incremental scaling, pay as you grow, with all of the advantages of storage consolidation. I no longer have pools of siloed storage, I can carve up ones as needed, when needed, I can manage it all as one combined storage pool. From a Flex perspective, it's got some pretty nice architectural attributes, which give you the best of HCI and agility and scale, as well as storage consolidation. So we're seeing a lot of success there. >> Dan, I hear things like open, flexible, some of those environments, and I think about the service providers and requirements that they have for how they need to simplify their environments, super conscious on cost, how's this been doing in the service provider market recently? >> Absolutely, funny you bring that up. We actually talk internally, we've got a service provider team inside Dell, they focus on servicing the large telcos and other service providers, and we've noticed that their underlying infrastructure is very very similar with Flex, so we're in discussions to see how we land what they do on top of what we do as a standardized offering. Even right now, a lot of our customers are in the service provider space. That large growth, flexibility, and some of the underlying storage stack has multi-tenancy capabilities, where you can carve up and isolate, that lend itself very very well to service providers. >> Oh, go ahead, Stu. >> For people that know ScaleIO, anything new that they should be understanding? I understand it's this packaging as like a hardware model. Organizationally, it lives under the server team now, I believe it is. >> Absolutely, so two things there. One, organizationally, all the HCI stuff came in up under Ashley Gorakhpurwalla so it came in up under the server side, and then, so, ScaleIO is up under Jeff Boudreau, under Dan Embar, it's storage stack, it's in under the storage division. We work very very closely together. Second thing that's happening, there's a, one, we've been in the HCI world for a while, in the CI world for a while. We've quickly determined we can drive much better customer experience, much better customer outcomes, as we lean more towards an appliance or an engineered system versus a do-it-yourself kind of model. With ScaleIO, what we're trying to do is push it more into an appliance model, push it more into rack scale model, VxRack Flex. There's a outbound shift away from, kind of, what was ScaleIO as a software only and into more of an engineered system appliance offering, so with that shift, you'll see a rebrand from ScaleIO to VxFlex OS. It's just a rebrand of the software. >> So I'm glad Stu talked about organization, because you had to kind of reorg not too long ago, and so we had Ashley on yesterday, we talked to Jeff yesterday, as well. So from your perspective, now that you've had a few months to settle in, find your groove, how much of a difference do you think, as far as customer-facing, is this making in terms of responding to those kinds of needs and those desires. >> Sticking HCI with the server team has an awful lot of synergy. Obvious, compute-centric, scale, from a business scale perspective. So there's an awful lot of goodness in living in that same organization. Ashley's done it pretty well to make sure there's a lot of alignment, but we're also keeping a lot of the engineered system special sauce focus on the HCI side. So we're able to, one, better leverage a lot of the, what I would call, supply chain scale, the processes and go-to-market capabilities of an engine that is built around hundreds and thousands of units, right? That stretches across services, that stretches across factory and supply chain. Obviously, we want to drive HCI, we want to drive HCI in the mainstream and scale. Sitting right there in the server organization, they do scale, right? So lot of good learnings, lot of good synergy and leverage across teams. >> It's coming together for you. Nicely done. Thanks for joining us again, good to see you. You going to see each other next week, you said? >> That's right. >> We down in New Orleans, is that... yeah. >> Yeah. >> Alright, enjoy, and stay out of trouble, both of you. >> Absolutely, you know, one week in Vegas... >> Vegas one week, New Orleans the next, that's a recipe for an interesting time. >> Yes, that it is. >> Dan McConnell, thanks for being with us here on theCUBE. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> Back with more from Las Vegas right after this. You're watching theCUBE from Dell Technologies World 2018. (upbeat techno music)

>> Announcer: From Milpitas, California, at the edge of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE, covering autonomous vehicles, brought to you by Western Digital. >> Hey, welcome back here everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in Milpitas, California at the Western Digital event. It's the Autotech Council Autonomous Vehicle event. About 300 people talking about all these really complicated issues around autonomous vehicles, a wide variety of start ups and enterprises and it's a really interesting space 'cause there's, as somebody said in the keynote there's literally thousands of problems to solve. But one of the angles is really on the public transportation side. Really excited to have a really innovative start up and welcome Emmanuele Spera. He is the CEO of NEXT Future Transportation. Emmanuele, welcome. >> Hi Jeff, thanks for inviting me out. >> Absolutely, so for the folks that aren't familiar, you can go to the website, there's a great demo video that you guys have this session. What are you guys building? >> We're building something very particular, because, so far, you see all those company presenting what is, well known as an autonomous car. So, let's build something that can let us read our newspaper while we are commuting, and very nice, lot of money that's been invested in that. But the reality is that how we... Are we taking care of the gridlocks that are affecting our city? Are we moving around enough people? Are we solving the problem of congestion? I'll say, no. Because it doesn't matter if we have an EV, an autonomous driving vehicle, or an SUV or a car, you still have congestion, you still need to have large number of car to move around people. >> Jeff: Right, right. So the only viable solution is to use buses. Buses has been there in the last hundred years and they are very expensive, actually the most expensive asset that cities and municipalities are using. So they using taxpayer money to pay those asset, and they are underutilized. Because you have a high demand in peak time, so people use buses, but on the rest of the day, when there are no peak time, there is very low usage rate. I'll say around 20, 25%. So take a look at those buses, they are empty all the time. So our solution is about modularizing this kind of transportation. So, literally, we took a bus and we divided the bus in section, so you have six module that are coupled together, are the same length and capacity of a standard city bus. But we do modularization. We can create a system which literally breathe, because we have longer vehicle in peak time when there is high demand, and shorter vehicle when there is very low demand when you have just a few passenger. The magic is that when those pods are connected, one to another, they share the internal space. By the way, all of that can be done autonomously. >> Jeff: Right. The coupling is already done autonomously, and we can start from tomorrow, because we can't have a driver when we begin using the system. When the technology allows us to be autonomous, we're going to run the autonomous operating system on that. >> Jeff: Right. This can be done autonomously now, in close environment when you don't have a mix traffic environment. But we demonstrated that this could be done. >> That's funny that you came at the problem from a bus, and breaking the bus into modular pieces. When I was prepping for our interview, and doing some research, I looked at it more as kind of a combination of a bunch of individual passenger vehicles that then create almost more like a train. But it's the same concept and it made me think of really kind of IP networks where, when you can bring them all together into an autonomous unit and they operate as one. Much more efficient. >> Emmanuele: Exactly. >> They don't need space in between. And then, really an interesting concept where that packet can kind of jump onto another network if it needs to go down another route. So the fact that these things can couple and uncouple, the fact the people can change units within the structure, you're really adding kind of a smart transportation that then can come together and really act like a city bus. Really fascinating way to look at that problem. >> Absolutely, it's simple, so. The technology to create that, if you look at those parts, seem like very far away, but we were able to create this now using off the shelf components. >> Jeff: Right. Literally, when you give people, passenger, an option, this kind of option, they're going to love it. >> Jeff: Right. Think about now when you need to go from point A to point B, you need to take a taxi, ride a bicycle, take new burr, to change and have an intermodal transportation to reach your destination and it's going to take a while to reach your destination. With this system, you just jump on another pod and you change your destination within the same system. >> Jeff: Right. It can all be controlled by an app that you carry or by screen that are on the pods, that tell you you need to go northbound to go on pod number one, you need to go eastbound go on pod number two. >> Jeff: Right. So the system is able to reorganize itself based on the user's needs, literally. >> So, we're here, we're sponsored by Western Digital, this is part of their whole Data Makes Possible program. From a data perspective and a AI perspective, how did you have to approach that problem a little bit differently and what were some of the challenges that enabled you to overcome, to create this unique solution? >> So, before, you were saying that we are all here at this conference and we'll need to solve, like, thousands of problem. We actually have to solve, like, millions of problem, billions of problem, I mean we are... And AI is the only way we can overcome such problem in some area. Obviously we need to take control of the basics, of the beginning of this journey. Clearly the AI will be amazing when the system is fully working and you can predict information, you can connect with the passenger, with the user of the system directly, and predict behavior, predict needs on the passenger side. And then also, you're going to use the AI to predict how the system is flowing, meaning how the vehicle are using the lane, if there are gridlock somewhere, so how you can, on the fly, reorganize the way those vehicles, those pods, are going to move around the city, to go over obstacle and reach a destination faster and ultimately, in our case, where is the best place to couple with another vehicle based on passenger destination and lengths of the journey. >> Right. So, Emmanuele, this isn't just a concept. You guys actually have working prototypes out in the field, so where, how many do you have deployed? What's your road map and hope for kind of a roll out or do you have, is it a partner strategy? What's your plan to scale? >> We had this concept, the company was made in 2015, we were showing this concept in 2016, the beginning of 2017. In one year, we were able to deliver to our first customer, which is the Dubai government. Last February, during the World Government Summit in Dubai, we showcase two full spec vehicle that were able to couple and uncouple autonomously and move around the venue. We had been testing them since January in Dubai, in a closed area or in particular events where we could showcase and have passengers on both and drive them for a small route. Clearly, our solution is not for OEM car maker. It's for municipalities that really need to solve a problem and have been stuck, literally, with the bus in the last hundred year. There have been no major innovation in bus industry. The only innovation I see now, there are electrifying buses, so now you have way more expensive assets which is still underutilized. >> Right. >> So I spend more and it's still no one use it. So what you are doing, we are going to provide fleets to municipalities and Dubai will be the first, especially since they're having their Dubai 2020 Exhibition. We can provide them with a fleet by that time. Think about that, 120 pods are the same as 20 buses. >> Right, right. That's your targeted first deploy, something like that? >> Yeah, exactly, and the cost is even lower than a bus. >> Alright. Well, Emmanuele, it's really cool technology. >> Emmanuele: Thank you, Jeff. >> I just love the innovation in terms of kind of slicing the problem in a slightly different way, being really innovative and partnering. As you said, you have not raised $100 million in all this craziness, and actually deploying, so. Really exciting story, thanks for sharing with it and we're excited to watch it unfold over the next couple of years. >> Absolutely, thank you, Jeff. >> Alright, he's Emmanuele, I'm Jeff. We're at the Autotech Council, part of Western Digital's Data Makes Possible. Thanks for watching, catch you next time. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from the Moscone Center, it's The Cube covering AWS Summit San Francisco 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back to our exclusive Cube coverage here at AWS, Amazon Web Services Summit 2018 in San Francisco. I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Stu Miniman. We have a special guest. We have an influencer, authority figure on AWS, Corey Quinn, editor of Last Week in AWS, also has got a podcast called Screaming, >> Corey: In the Cloud. >> Screaminginthecloud.com just launched. Corey, great to have you on. Thanks for joining us. >> No, thank you for letting me indulge my ongoing love affair with the sound of my own voice. (laughing) >> Well we love to have you on and again, love the commentary on the keynote on Twitter. Lot of action, we were in the front row, kind of getting all the scene. Okay, if you're going to write the newsletter next week for what happened this week, if this week was last week, next week, what's your take on this? Because again, Amazon keeps pounding the freight train that's just the cadence of AWF announcements. But they're laying it out clear. They're putting up the numbers. They're putting out the architecture. They're putting out machine learning. It's more than developers right now. What's your analysis, what's your take of what's happening this week? >> I think that certain trends are continuing to evolve that we've seen before where it used to be that if you're picking an entire technology that you're going to bet your business on, what you're going to build on next. It used to be which vendor do I pick, which software do I pick? Now even staying purely within the AWS ecosystem, that question still continues to grow. Oh so I want to use a database, great. I have 12 of them that I can choose between. And whatever I pick, the consensus is unanimous, I'm wrong. So there needs to be, I still think there needs to be some thoughtful analysis done as far as are these services solving different problems. If so, what are the differentiating points? Right now, I think the consensus emerges that when you look into a product or service offering from AWS, the first reaction all of us feel is to some extent confusion. I'm lost, I'm scared. I don't really know what's going on. And whatever I'm about to do, I feel like I'm about to do it badly. >> Yes, scale is the big point. I want to get your reaction. Matt Wood, Dr. Matt Wood, Cube alum, been on many times, he nailed it I thought when he said, look it, machine learning and data analysis was on megabytes and gigabytes, they're offering petaflop level compute, high performance, and then Werner Vogels has also said something around the services where, you can open things up in parallel scale. So, what's your reaction to that, as you look at that and say whoa, I've got a set of services I can launch in parallel, and the scale of leveraging that petaflops. I mean, this is kind of like the new, you know, compute model. Your reaction is it real? Are customers ready for it? Where are we in that evolutionary customer journey? Are they still cavemen trying to figure out how to make fire and make the wheel? I mean where are we with this? >> I think that we see the same thing continuing to emerge as far as patterns go, where they talk about, yes there's this service. Just start using it and it scales forever. And that's great in theory, but in practice, all of the demos, all of the quick starts, all of the examples, paint by numbers examples that they'll give you, tend to be at very small scale. And yes, it works really well when you have effectively five instances all playing together. When you have 5,000 of those instances, a lot of sharp edges start to emerge. Scale becomes a problem. Fail overs take far longer. And let's not even talk about what the bill does at that point. Additionally once you're at that point, it's very difficult to change course. If I write a silly blog, and effectively baby seals get more hits than this thing does, it's not that difficult for me to migrate that. Whereas if I'm dealing with large scale production traffic that's earning me money on a permanent basis, moving that is no longer trivial or in some cases feasible at all. >> Yeah Corey, how does anybody reasonably make a decision as to how they're going to build something because tomorrow, everything might change. You said oh okay great, I had my environment and I kind of you know, built my architecture a certain way, oh wait there's a new container service. Oh, and start building a, oh wait now there's the orchestrated version of that that I need to change to. Oh wait, now there's a serverless built way that kind of does it in a similar way. So you know, it seems like it used to be the best time to do things would've been two months ago, but now I should do it now. Now the answer is, the best time for me to do things would be if I could wait another quarter, but really I have to get started now. >> I tend to put as much on future Corey as I possibly can. The problem is that at one time I could've sat here and said the same thing to you about, oh virtualization is the way to go. You should migrate your existing bare metal servers there. And then from virtualization to Cloud and Cloud to containers. Then containers to serverless. And this narrative doesn't ever change. It's oh what you're doing is terrible and broken. The lords of thought have decried that now it's time to do this differently, and that's great, but what's the business use case for doing it? Well, we did this thing that effectively people get on stage at keynotes and make fun of us for now, so we should really change it. Okay maybe, but why? Is there a business value driving that decision? And I think that gets lost in the weeds of the new shiny conference ware that gets trotted out. >> Well I mean Amazon's not, I mean they're being pretty forthright. I mean, you can't deny what Intuit put out there today. The Intuit head of machine learning and data science laid out old way, new way. Classic case of old way, new way. Eight months, six to eight months, ton of cluster, you-know-what going on as things changed it. They're just data scientists. They're not back-end developers. They went to one week. Nine months to one week. That's undeniable right? I mean how do you, I mean that's a big company but, that seems to be the big enchilada that Amazon's going for, not the pockets of digital disruption. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, how do you square that out? I mean how do you think about that? >> Cloudability had a great survey that they released the results of somewhat recently where they were discussing that something like four or five of the, or I'm sorry 85% of the global spend on AWS went to four or five services that all have been around for a long time. RDS, EC2, S3, PBS, Data Transfer. And so as much as people talk about this and you're seeing pockets of this, it's not the common gaze by a wide margin. People don't get up on stage and talk about, well I have these bunch of EC2 instances behind a low balancer, storing data on S3 and that's good enough for me, because that's not interesting anymore. People know how to do that. Instead, they're talking about these far future things that definitely add capability, but do come at a cost-- >> I mean it's the classic head room. It's like here's some head room, but at the end of the day it's EC2, S3, Kinesis, Redshift, bunch of services that's U.S that seem to dominate. The question I want to ask you is that they always flaunt out the, every year it changes, Kinesis was at one point the fastest growing service in the history of AWS. Now it's Aurora. We made a, I made a prediction on the opening that a SageMaker will be the fastest growing service, because there just seemed to be so much interest in turn-key machine learning. It's hard as you-know-what to do it. >> I agree. >> Your thoughts on SageMaker? >> In one of my issues a few weeks back, I wound up asking, so who's using SageMaker and for what? And the response was ridiculous. What astounded me was that no two answers were alike as far as what the use case was. But they all started the same way. I'm not a data scientist, but. So this is something that's becoming-- >> John: What does that mean to you? What does that tell you? >> It tells me that everyone thinks they're unqualified to be playing around in the data science world, but they're still seeing results. >> But Corey I wonder because you know, think back a few years ago. That's what part of the promise of big data, is we have all this data and we're going to be able to have the business analysts rather than you know, some PhD sort this out. And machine learning is more right. We want to have these tools and we want to democratize data, you know. Data is the new bacon. It's the new oil. Data's the new everything. So you know, machine learning, you think this is all vapor and promise, or do you think it's real? >> I think big data is very real and very important. Ask anyone who sells storage by the gigabyte. And they will agree with me. In practice I think it's one of those areas where the allure is fascinating but the implementation is challenging. Okay we have history going back 20 years of every purchase someone has ever made in our book store. That's great, why do I still wind up getting recommendations? >> Well yeah and I guess, I want to talk that it was the, I see it more as, everything that was big data is now kind of moving to the ML and AI stage. Because big data didn't deliver on it, will this new wave deliver on the promise of really extracting value from my data? And it's things like this, live data. It's doing things now with my data, not the historical, lots of different types of data that we were trying to do with like the Hadoops of the world. >> Got ya. I think it's a great move because either yes it will or no it won't, but if it doesn't, you're going to see emergent behaviors of so why didn't it work? Well we don't understand the model that this system has constructed, so we can't even tell you why it's replacing the character I with some weird character that's unprintable, so let alone why we decide to target a segment of customers who never buys anything. So it does become defensible from that perspective. Whether there's something serious there that's going to wind up driving a revolution in the world of technology, I think it's too soon to say and I wouldn't dare to predict. But I will be sarcastic about it either way. >> Okay well let's get sarcastic for a second. I wan to talk to you about some moves other people are making. We'll get to the competition in a minute but Salesforce required MuleSoft. That got a lot of news and we were speculating on our studio session this week or last week with the CEO of Rubric that it's great for Salesforce. It can bring structured data in, on PRIM and the Cloud. Salesforce is one big SaaS platform. Amazon is trying to SaaS-ify business through the Cloud. So, but one of the things that's missing from MuleSoft is the unstructured data. So the question for you is, how are you seeing and how is your community looking at the role of the data as a strategic asset in a modern stack, one, both structured and unstructured data, is that becoming, even happening or is it more like, well we don't even know what it means. Your thoughts? >> I think that there's been a long history of people having data in a variety of formats and being able to work with that does require some structure. That's why we're seeing things emerging around S3's, increasing capabilities, being able to manipulate data at rest. We're seeing that with S3 and Glacier Select. We're seeing it with Athena which is named after the goddess of spending money on Cloud services, and there's a number of different tooling options that are, okay we're not going to move three x-abytes of data in so we have to do something with where it is. As far as doing any form of analysis on it, there needs to be some structure to it in order for that to make sense. From that perspective, MuleSoft was a brilliant acquisition. The question is, is what is SalesForce going to do with that? They have a history of acquisition, some of which have gone extremely well. Others of which we prefer not to talk about in polite company. >> It comes back down to the IDE thing. How many IDE's does Salesforce have now? I mean it's a huge number. >> I'm sure there's three more since we've started talking. (laughing) >> Yeah so Corey, you brought up, you know, money. So you know, the trillion dollar, what feedback are you getting from the community? You know there's always, well I get on Amazon and then my bills continue to grow and continue to grow. Same thing at Salesforce by the way if you use them. So you know, there's always as you gain power, people will push back against it. We saw with with Mike Hichwa with Oracle. I hear it some but it's not an overriding thing from when I talk to customers about Amazon. But I'm curious what you're hearing. Where are the customers feeling they're getting squeezed? Where is it you know, phenomenal? What are you seeing kind of on the monetary side of Cloud? >> In my day job, I solve one problem. I fix the horrifying AWS bill, both in terms of dollars and cents as well as analysis and allocation. And what astonishes me, and I'm still not sure how they did it. It's that AWS has somehow put the onus onto the customer. If you or I go out and we buy a $150,000 Ferrari, we wake up with a little bit of buyer's remorse of dear lord, that was an awful lot of money. When you do the equivalent in AWS, you look at that, and instead of blaming the vendor for overcharging, instead we feel wow, I'm not smart enough. I haven't managed that appropriately. Somehow it's my fault that I'm writing what looks like a phone number of a check every month over to AWS. >> John: It creeps up on you. >> It does. It's the boiling a frog problem. And by the time people start to take it seriously, there's a lot of ill will. There's a sense of, our team is terrible, and wasn't caring about this. But you don't ever cost-optimize your way to success. That's something you do once you have something that's up and working and viable. You don't start to build a product day one for the least possible amount of money and expect to attain any success. >> Well let's talk about that real quick to end the segment because I think that's a really important thing. Success is a double-edged sword. The benefit of the Cloud is to buy what you need, get proof of concept going, get some fly wheels going or whatever, virtuous circle of the application. But at some point, you hit a tipping point of oh shit this is working. And then the bill is huge. Better than over-provisioning and having a failed product. So where's that point with you guys or with your customers? Is there like analytics you do? Is that more of a subjective qualitative thing? You say, okay are you successful? Now let's look at it. So how do you deal with customers? 'Cause I can imagine that success is, it becomes the opportunity but also the problem. >> I think it's one of those, you know it when you see it type of moments, where if a company is spending $80,000 a month on their Cloud environment and could be spending 40, that's more interesting to a company that's three people than it is to an engineering team of 50. At that point, sorry they're embezzling more than that in office supplies every month. So that's not the best opportunity to start doing an optimization pass. More important than both of those scales to me has always been about understanding the drivers of it. So what is it that's costing that? Is it a bunch of steady state things that aren't doing work most of the time? Well, maybe there's an auto-scaling story in there. Maybe there's a serverless opportunity. Maybe nobody's using that product and it's time to start looking at rolling it in to something. >> They've left the lights on right? So to speak. >> Exactly. >> The server's are still up. Wait a minute, take them down. So, writing code, analytics, is that the answer? >> All of the above. In a vacuum, if you spin up an instance today, and don't touch it again, you will retire before that instance does. And it will continue to charge you every hour of every day. Understanding and being able to attribute who spun that up, when was it done, why was it done, and what project is it tied to? Is it some failed experiment someone did who hasn't worked here in six months? Or is that now our master database? We kind of need to know in either direction what that looks like. >> Alright before we wrap, you got to tell us, what do we expect to hear from your podcast? >> Good question. My podcast generally focuses on one-on-one conversations with people doing interesting things in the world of Cloud, which is vague enough for me to get away with almost anything as far as it goes. It's less sarcastic and snarky than some of my other work, and more at the why instead of the how. I'm not going to sit here and explain how to use an ABI. There are people far better at that than I am. But I will talk about why you might use a service, and what problem it reports to solve. >> Alright Corey, great to have you on. Uh the Screaming Pod, Screaming Cloud, >> Corey: ScreamingInTheCloud.com >> ScreamingInTheCloud.com, it's a podcast. Corey thanks for coming on and sharing the commentary, the insight on AWS, the how and the why, the Cube breaking down. All the action here in Moscone Western San Francisco, AWS 2018 Summit, back after more, after this short break. (spacey music)

(click) >> Welcome this special Cube conversation in the Intel Tech Lounge at the Sundance Film Festival. I'm John Furrier with The Cube. We are here with Ari Kuschnir, who is the founder and managing partner of Missing Pieces. Doing some really amazing work on the future of filmmaking. He's got a great entrepreneurial spirit. And creative desire to deliver great product. Welcome! >> Thank you, thank you. >> So, tell them about Missing Pieces and what's going on in your world. So, there's context. Take a minute to explain what you are working on. >> Well, the premise is to be at this intersection of storytelling technology. And to make stuff people actually want to watch. And VR and AR are parts of it. But not the whole. So, I know some of the conversation focus is on, is on VR, and we're just as excited about where storytelling is headed. In terms of what technology allows us to do. But the key for me is. I'm just passionate about, a new thing comes out. And I want to figure out how to make something really great. But meaningful, and powerful with that. >> We were talking before you came out about filmmaking, obviously trained in the discipline, obviously a variety of other things. But I want to get your perspective, we're on top of this new generation, what does that mean to you? When you hear that new generation, a new creative is coming? What does that mean to you? >> Yeah, I feel like I've ridden the wave of the thing as it's happened. And I mean, the company has too. So, I went to film school in the late 90s. And it was the first time you could buy like, first Final Cut, and the first wave of that. So you could make art little movies on the weekend, you no longer needed even to go to the school itself to borrow the equipment. That was revolutionary in 1999. And then 2005, when we started thinking about the company. You know, your Vimeo, YouTube, video i-Pod all come out within five months of each other. Towards the later part of the year. And it's a revolution. It's clear that with distribution, now not only can we make it and edit it in our laptops. But we can put it out, and millions of people could watch it. And that was the first time that was possible. And it was revolutionary. And I think it still is, to some degree. So, we've just, you know, as it evolves what I see is that, it's not, I've always felt like it's not enough to make the sausage as they say. You know, the directors, the talent that I sign now. Like the project we have now here at Sundance, young Jake. Jake is a great example of a creative who you can't fit in a box. He's an Internet artist, he's a rapper. He's an interactive video maker. He did an app called Emoji.Ink. And he does celebrity emoji portraits. He has a hundred thousand followers on Instagram. So, he can command his own audience. So, when a brand, or an agency comes to him. It's a very different approach than when they come for a very straight up work for hire, director's commercial kind of thing. That is the future, I mean. The future is about having a passionate audience, making things for that audience, understanding it. And being able to communicate with them on a daily basis, or a weekly basis in a powerful way, right? Through story. >> Yeah, I mean, you're riding the wave. And the waves are getting bigger. One of the things we do, we do a lot of tech coverage. And we see this in Cloud computing where software changed from Waterfall to Agile. And now the craft's coming back on the software side. But still now, software is eating the creative world. Because now a new wave is coming. So, speak to that, because you're, this is, you can almost look at the old ways. You mentioned the commercials and films. Almost like the Waterfall. You know, crafts, craft it up and you ship it. And you hope it works well. >> Ari: Yeah. >> But now, you have this new model of iteration. Where it's more Agile creative. How do you do Agile, like your artist, and not lose the craft? >> Yeah, well it's a challenge. Look, I've had so many opportunities in our 10 plus year career to kind of go in that direction of just like quantity over quality. And we could just never do it. I mean we're just not cut out for it. But at the same time, I'm not, I never ignore, how to optimize the content based on data, and based on what the landscape is looking like. So, an important thing for example that we consider in every project is context. Like what, how is this project going to be released? Oh, it turns out that, it's really a big social media push. It's not a TV thing. Or it turns out specifically it's Facebook versus Instagram. And that's a very different type of edit. And a very different type of way you start the video. 'Cause you've got a certain, even a different format, and a different way of looking at the content. So, you start to get into, and then you start to iterate, and look at the different ways in which you can repurpose, and rerelease the content, but customize it for each thing. So, you get into this really interesting place where the data is driving the story. And the feedback is driving the story. >> And the audience is part of the journey. >> Yes. And the comments, and the way in which people are taking the thing that you've made and re-interpreting it, is really interesting. And part of the story. >> You trigger a lot of emotion with me, when we're talking, because, you know, as an entrepreneur, I started media businesses turning into, and no-one has even seen this kind of media business before. But I have no media training of any kind. I did a science major. So, there's certain, and I've observed that there's dogma in the journalism business. And there's, but you know, how dare I challenge that, or others. You're doing the same thing. >> I love that by the way. >> So, I want to ask you. What is the dogma with the old world, 'cause the naysayers are usually the ones with the dogma. "Oh, it will never work!" >> Ari: Yeah. >> So, you're on the front end of this new trend. But you're going to have a visibility into what they're thinking, what is that? >> The dogma is, you know, the whole like, there's only big name directors, and you know, it's a certain caliber of work. And that craft is the ultimate thing. And that you just have to make the thing great. And it'll do the thing that is needs to do. Without any thinking in terms of context, or media buyer. How it can actually become a social, socially engaged piece. So, the thing that we're always fighting is some version of that. And then because we came from a scrappy place, but we're now, you know, a pretty legit thing, I think people, some people will still be like, well that's the kind of like, the problem solving sometimes gets interpreted as scrappy. Which is a word I really don't like. And I think-- >> It's a compliment on one hand. >> Yeah. >> But some people look at it as an insult. "Oh, he's just scrappy!" >> Well-- >> "He's not legit!" >> You never want to be the cheap solution. You want to be the solution that people call because nobody else can solve this problem for you. I think we, there's a strand of the company that's like, the kind of like, pick up the phone and we'll figure it out. And, the impossible project that nobody else can do. And then there's another strand where it's just like, you just want to make stuff people actually want to watch. How hard it that? The thing where you could just buy the media, and expect the results is trickier and trickier. >> I mean you could be different, and innovative, but that might not be good. But if you're good doing it, you're differentiated and you're innovating. >> Ari: That's right. >> What's the filmmaking track on that line. Because certainly there's a lot of innovation. And with innovation comes failure. But people are trying to be different. And being different actually is a good thing. What are some of the trends that you're seeing where people are having some success. And where people are stumbling. >> Yeah, that's a good. I mean what I see is, the things that do well take cultural context into account, and again speak to the people in that way. So, it's like a feedback loop that it's creating with its own audience. And we almost always, there's almost always a time in the process when we're dealing with an agency, or a brand where things start to go a little bit like, too, too much, and in that direction that you don't want it to take. Somebody, usually me, or someone will say, "Look, if we make these changes. "Or if we go in this direction. "We won't want to share it. "And if we don't want to share it, "nobody's going to want to share it." So, that becomes a key thing. Whereas before you could sort of away with some of that, now it's like, well, it has to pass this sort of, kind of litmus test in terms of like, are you comfortable with sharing this thing, because it speaks to you or not. >> So, I want to ask you the hard question, we're here at the Intel Tech Lounge, obviously Intel is doing a lot of tech things. They're trying to get all this new tech. And I see it on, whether you watch the NFL playoffs, with, you know, with the camera angles, the games, on basketball games. You see them using the power of technology-- >> We're actually working on an Intel Olympics VR related project that got a little tease ad, CES. So, I can just say that. >> Yeah I know, so what's the tech? What's the cool new game changer in your mind. As a tool that you need to be more successful, and other artists could use? >> Hmmm, well, you tend to, yeah I mean, I think we-- >> John: More horsepower, more compute, more-- >> No, I mean it's really the, What happened with the AR was really interesting, which was, everyone realized, oh, the phone's already in our pocket. While the headset needs to be something that really needs to be standalone. It needs to be $200. You know, like, you sort of, there's different kinds of headsets, of course. They do different kinds of things. But that's an extra hardware. The phone we already have in our pockets. So, everyone's started taking AR seriously. Including the big players. And what that allowed was a, a rethinking of what the possibilities with story would be. So, in some ways this last year has been a readjustment, and a rethinking of, well, what can you do with the phone that you've already got in your pocket. In terms of expanding the storytelling. Or placing a story in the middle of your living room, you know. A layer, using the phone as a window and a layer. But I'm equally as excited about what's coming in VR, interactive VR, room-scale VR, you know. The project that we have here is an interactive 360 project with a phone. >> What's that called? >> It's called On My Way. And the artist is young Jake. And the original conceit of it, is, it's Jake, there's four Jakes in a car. And every time you move the phone to a different Jake, it changes the Jake. So, as soon as it passes the quadrants. So, the four quadrant it kind of swaps the Jake. And that creates a really fun, and interesting thing. And he actually designed it for the phone, vertical. Because that's the way most people are going to experience it. >> John: That's awesome. >> But it's playing on a headset as well. >> Oh you're definitely a new creative. Love chatting with you. >> Thank you. >> Final, well, I have two questions, first one is, Sundance, what's the story this year? What's your report? If you had to go back and your friend asked you to give him a report, "Hey, what happened Ari, "what's going on at Sundance this year?" >> A combination of really interesting high-end VR projects. Some of them leaning into this kind of like more psychedelic less narrative driven stuff. Which I really like. Kind of like really embracing the fact that it's another world, and taking you there. And then the AR stuff. There's a thing called Tender, Ten Day R. Or Tendar. Which is a play on Tinder, by Tinder Claus. Which is, uses augmented reality, and emotion, and machine learning, everything that you could hope for in a really interesting way. So, that's kind of showing you where it's going. So, I think those two things. >> Psychedelic's interesting. I always, I mean this kind of tangent. But in, I've been seeing on The Cube interviews, I think we're going to have a digital hippy revolution. >> Ari: Definitely! >> And it's coming. I mean you can feel it. It's a different culture. >> When I was looking a lot of people, yeah, a lot of people are scared to, I mean, VR is a really great consciousness expanding way to go to get into other worlds. Without, you know-- >> And will all the crap going on in the world today you can almost look at this as a Sixties like movement in this modern era. Where it could be a major catalyst for massive change. >> Yeah, and there's a piece about, you know, this female shaman that grows through the tribe in Ecuador. And became the first ever female shaman for her tribe. And there's a piece called Chorus that, within it. Which is just super weird and trippy. And almost has no plot, but is amazing. >> All right Ari, you've got to run. Quick soundbite. What are you working on, what's exciting you these days? Share a little bit about what's happening. >> A variety of, again it's the full spectrum of storytelling, so it's not one thing. It's really pushing, experiential pushing, branded content pushing, original content that we're getting a lot more into that game. Long form series. VR series. Really, that's kind of the next wave for the company is to set foot, much stronger in the original space, and create our own original IP. Our own original content. >> Awesome, Ari Kuschnir managing partner and founder of Missing Pieces, check them out. Lot of great work. And again, it's a whole new game changing, from storytelling to the tech. The collision between technology and artistry, and creative, and it's happening. It's here at Sundance, at the Intel Tech Lounge. I'm John Furrier with The Cube conversation here at Sundance, which is part of our coverage. Was to look at the angle of Sundance 2018. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)