>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With coverage of KubeCon, and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020 virtual, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stuart Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, the European show, which of course for 2020 is virtual. Always love when we get to talk to the practitioners, as well as many of them heavily involved in what happens at the CNCF, you know, all these open source communities. Happy to welcome to the program, first time guest Katie Gamanji. She is a Cloud Platform Engineer with American Express, and she's also a member of the CNCF's TOC, which is the technical oversight committee. Katie, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me today. I'm quite excited to be here. >> Excellent. Well, you are, as I mentioned, you're part of the TOC. You also present at the show last year. You presented at one of the KubeCon shows this year. As I mentioned, you were with American Express now. I believe it was Conde Nast, You shared some of the journey along those lines. Maybe for our audience, give us a little bit about, you know, your background, and what's got you involved in, you know, some of these projects in communities. >> Absolutely. Oh, such a good question. I can talk forever about that. My passion about Cloud Native. So, my name is Katie Gamanji, and I am one of the Cloud Platform Engineer for American Express. I joined American Express around five months ago, and I am part of the team that aims to transform the current platform, by embracing the Cloud Native principles, and making the best use of the open source tools. As mentioned previously, I've been working for Conde Nast. I've been in that role for almost two years. And as part of that role, we aim to create a centralized globally distributed platform that had Kubernetes as a central piece. And that was the role which actually got me involved more into the Cloud Native tooling, and I've been exploring them quite heavily since then. And that's why I wanted to get more in terms more contribution to the community. I've been doing that previously for different talks, and actually writing blog posts on different, giving different guides on how to start using some of the tooling. However, this year I decided to apply for TOC. And I've been elected as a TOC from the end user perspective, so I'm representing pretty much the overview of what end users think that the next direction should be within the Cloud Native landscape. And for the last, actually for the past five months, I've been on the TOC, with the CNCF, and it's only 11 of us. And we are in charge to make sure that we can guide, and set this technical vision for this year for the CNCF landscape. >> Yeah. Katie, I definitely want to talk about the TOC piece, but I want to back up a little bit. And you talked about some of the tooling, you talked about the community. Help me understand a little bit, you know, from a business standpoint, why you know, Conde Nast, American Express, looking towards using, Kubernetes and all of these open tours toolings. What was the charter, the challenge put before them, that felt that doing things this new way would help them. >> I think this actually goes a couple of years back. In my previous role before Conde Nast, I was in a team which aimed to provision infrastructure, but it was in a more, how can I say old fashioned manner? We had to configure our data centers manually, configure the VMs and processes. We had (indistinct) of automation. But at the time, this was maybe three years ago. I started to look into Kubertetes, and it was still baby steps, like, there was interest from the community, and I really wanted to, kind of get my hands on it more. And when I was looking for a role, which was at Conde Nast, I was looking for something which aimed to introduce containers in the entire infrastructure. And I think Conde Nast actually was very appealing as a role because not many expect for a media company to invest in technology, and actually the underlined infrastructure. So, from that perspective, I thought it's actually quite a good use case to change this perspective in the community. As well, with Conde Nast, it was a very international company. We had different business units around the world. All of them had different tech stacks. So, the challenge itself, how do we unify that? How do we centralize the deployment process of the application and serving our requests? But at the same time, have these individualized layer for every single market to still personalize their content. So, it was a very good project, I think, for me to further go into the Cloud Native to link, and actually definitely proved to be the right role for that. And currently I am in a different role. It's actually a financial company. But I think this is my personal challenge. I think there is a perception of financial companies moving towards modernization of their infrastructure, but it's still going quite slowly. And I think my personal challenge in this perspective is to make sure that actually FinTech is a thing, but FinTech in Cloud Native, actually using open source tooling is possible. Obviously, we can transition that to some of the secondary base, maybe not the core base of the business, but this transition, actually getting the change going is the most important bit. Once actual goes, it's just a boulder like, downhill, which is going to take everything around, and refactoring bit by bit. >> Yeah. Katie, you brought up a really important point. You know, in today's world, especially, you know, this year 2020 with the global pandemic going on, being able to react fast is so important regardless of what industry you're in. You talked about in your previous role, you had a global rollout to work across a lot of environments. Help us understand a little bit underneath the covers. You know, using this tool set, how does this help you move faster? How does it, you know, in some ways unify teams, regardless of what challenges they have? >> I think for us at least at Conde Nast, it was quite important to have one platform, so actually centralized all of our required, actually gather all our requirements, and translate them in within the platform. So, what we actually wanted, was to us to have Kubernetes as the gravitational point. Now, with Kubernetes, we'd have some of the main functionalities such as portability or flexibility. We'd be able to scale to very easily without, actually with minimal effort, but more importantly, we'll be able to transport our platform to different regions. So, to actually replicate the entire tech stat. So once we have these centralized platform, it was very easy for us to distribute them. For example, in regions across the US. And that time I was working there at least. There was an intentional strategy to replicate the tech stack in China. And that'll be very easy because with Kubernetes you just have this lifting shift capabilities. As long as you have BMs, you'll be able or compute, you'll be able to run the entire Conde Nast tech stack. So that was a very kind of big point for us to move to Kubernetes. Whilst I think in American Express, the strategy is completely different. It's still a lot of heritage infrastructure we have at the moment, actually we are running on Kubernetes. There is but the provider itself is Open shave This proving to be showcasing some of the issues for us moving forward, and we'd like to transition to a more neater way to run Kubernetes. And this potentially means, we haven't finalized the decision yet but it might we'd be using probably a cloud provider, or it might be the case of actually running Kubernetes self service. So we've actually got to maintain our clusters. This is not defined, but the underlying idea is that we want to be more kind of modern version of Kubernetes or managing Kubernetes moving forward. So this is one of the strategies. But I think within American express, the main underlying idea is that we really want to inner source most of the configuration. Historically we had different contractors and vendors working on our bits and pieces, we'd like to actually get all of these in house and have a centralized way to manage our infrastructure. So this is the underlying project which I think is going to take a while, but again there is an intention to include Cloud Native to link and technologies, and I think it's a very healthy thinking in terms of technology. >> Well Katie, you highlighted two really important topics that we've seen out there. Number one is exactly where my infrastructure is, it's going to change and I don't need to think about it. So you talked about public cloud, data centers, it might change in the future. And number two, making sure that you have the skill set in house. Something we definitely learnt from the outsourcing trends of the past was, when things need to be changed, if I had to rely on someone else it became very difficult. So if you're leveraging Kubernetes and you have the developer chops to be able to respond to the business in an agile way, you're going to be much more ready to be able to handle whatever happens in the future. >> Exactly >> So important. >> I want to switch and talk a little bit about your TOC work, presenting at the show. It's great to see companies enabling their employees to participate in this sort of thing. Help me understand how for you personally and what is the support that you get from your last job, your current job to participate in these open source projects in communities. >> Right. I think both of the companies, Conde Nast and American express, they're quite interested in been part of the Cloud Native community. With Conde Nast, they actually a part of end users. With American Express I think there is a thinking to actually join the end user community. So this might be something which will happen in future. I cannot guarantee but I'm hoping. This is going to be again one of my personal challenges, making sure we get in the community and share some of our used cases. But for now I think both of the companies actually understand the value of been part of actually using Open Source, but more importantly, understanding how other companies use that. Not one use case, especially when it come to Kubernetes, not one Kubernetes platform is going to be the same. There's always going to be different underlying technologies that plug in into it. There's always going to be different ways to use different tooling. And having these concentrated community and source of information, I think the companies actually understand the value in that and contributing to that. So I think, this is something which I've been quite passionate about to actually understand some of the strengths, to understand how some of the tooling are used, and if there is an actual hope for a project, or it's something which actually specialize into a very minimal kind of niche problem, and is going to be useful for maybe one or two big companies, it depends. So I think this is something I've been passionate about and I've actually had a support throughout. In my previous company and my current company I have very strong support from my higher ups to actually contribute more and be part of the end users community, and as such being a TOC as well. Which comes with a bunch of responsibilities as well. But I think in terms of either support, definitely I had the necessary support all the way through which I'm quite thankful. >> Katie, you mentioned some of your passions, I know from what I've read online that you're passionate about some of the tooling there, and that's some of what you're sharing through your presentations. So, I'd love if you could share a little bit about what we're going to be talking about at the Europe show right now and any other kind of tools that are getting your time and attention these days. >> So I think lately, I've been exploring Cluster API the new release. I've been waiting for new release. Actually everyone has been waiting for the new release for a couple of months. Now we actually have v1L for three end points with some of the cool features such as, manage control place for Cluster. And the second tool or set of toolings I'm working lately are the ones which concentrate on the Gitops model. So during the session at Kubecon in Europe this year, I will be presenting Cluster API, a guide on how to get started. So an overview of all the components necessary to create your own Clusters. In different cloud providers as well. But I will crown that presentation by delivering a demo of how can you provision your Custer with Gitops. And I'm going to use Argo CD at the moment. And the end result is going to be provisioning your Cluster in AWS by having maybe one click, and you have a Cluster refill masters, maybe five nodes and you just wait. Pretty much you can have a coffee while your Cluster is provisioning. But more importantly with Cluster API, again we have usable manifest which will allow us to have this one interface to integrate with different cloud providers. So we actually have this interoperobility Of manifest across different cloud providers. So look forward to that. >> Excellent. Katie, last question I have for you, what advice would you give your peers? Where do you see need for more participation, as people that are getting into this environment. Where do you think they can help? >> Oh such a good question. I think contribution is necessary in most of the sags In the Kubernetes community. So, I think it depends on the passion everyone has, if they're quite passionate about the networking, or storage or even service, there is going to be a group of people that have the same passion and interest with you. So please reach out and contribute. I think I never think I'll like to mention, you done necessarily need to be an active coder to be part of the sags or to be part of the Cloud Native. Because being in technology of course is an advantage, however, most of the ideas in actually making sure that we cover used cases for different tooling, comes from a diverse user base as well. So if you have an interest I think that's going to be very good engine for to further enable different ideas within the sags. So I wouldn't be able to recommend a particular project, I think this is very specific to everyone's daily role (indistinct) But yeah I think within the CNCF, we have a collection of sags for which you pretty much would find a place for yourself and your skills. >> Well Katie thank you so much for sharing your journey and participating so actively in the community. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me today. >> All right stay tuned much more coverage from Kubecon, CloudNativeCon Europe 2020 virtual edition, I'm Stuartt Miniman, and thank you for watching theCUBE. (gentle music)

from London England it's the cube covering Koopa inspire 19 Mei brought to you by Koopa hey welcome to the cube Lisa Martin on the ground in London at Koopa inspire 19 very pleased to welcome to the cube for the first time we have Dean Henry the EVP of business financing and supplier management from American Express Dean welcome to the cube thank you happy to be here so let's talk about payments we those of us in our date lives as consumers the b2c transactions are so easy these days right you can transact from your phone from your watch it's we're doing everything we're paying bills we're buying things yet in the b2b space business payments haven't had as rapid as innovation as we seen on the on the consumer side talk to me a little bit about the business-to-business payments industry from MX's perspective before we get in to what you guys are doing with Cooper yeah well first comment on on the innovation you're absolutely right the innovation that's happening and retail payments hasn't made its way to b2b payments I think that's mostly a function of you know a consumer having the ease to try something new download an app and and change the way that they transact a bit at a store but with with whomever they're paying whereas a big business has a lot of processes that drive their their business spend and the way that they manage it and systems and you know as we're here talking with Koopa today you know the the processes that they automate and that they bring are critical to you know making payments happen and because because of that there's just barriers to entry that make make b2b payments harder to mirror the speed that you see in the retail side that said there's a lot of exciting things happening you know b2b payments is a hundred and twenty seven trillion dollar market globally it's a big profit pool that a lot of players are innovating in and when you look into the landscape and you consider who's playing out there you know there's traditional big banks that have been sort of the stalwarts of Global Payments there's obviously a large and grow and growing FinTech community with new companies every day that are in the media offering new capabilities to to clients and then there's players like American Express and I think we're actually uniquely positioned in that landscape with not too many exactly like us and when you look at you know the big banks and some of the challenges that they have when I talk to our customers about fees and and you know processes that take a while or money that moves with with relative uncertainty in terms of how much is actually going to show up and the beneficiaries account based on lifting fees as money moves between banks and then you look at the FinTech community that's new innovative solutions but you're not sure that they're always going to be around you know after the next funding cycle I think we're we're trying to play an in the middle where were a great alternative to the FinTech community we're a global platform for payments we're a global platform for lending so we can really do all the things that a FinTech can do all the things that a bank can do in many instances and and do that with the brand and the certainty that is a max and so we're excited about the space and we're investing a lot of time and energy and and partnering where we need to in order to make sure our customers can transact where they want us to to help them facilitate commerce right that point of enabling a customer to transact where they want what influences are you is the American Express seeing and being able to infuse into your partnerships from the consumer side from that consumer who buy something with a click or a swipe on Amazon and wants to be able to do something similar in their business day job tell me about the influence that American Express is seeing and what that position that you just subscribe is allowing you guys to say all right this is a direction that we're gonna go and because we know yeah I need to meet you mr. customer where you are right what look I think part of it is is demographics to be perfectly honest if you look at Gen Y and Gen Z they're they're more of the decision makers in today's management they will be even more tomorrow's management and so they to your point have that expectation that their business life shouldn't be that much more complex in their personal life so so what we're trying to do is find the partners that have the best user experience and make sure our solutions work seamlessly there that's step one that's that's what we're doing here with Koopa step two is we're also trying to make sure that our capabilities on on Amex a digital real-estate works just it just as easily as our retail side of our business and we're we're doing that you know with a with the unifying principles and American Express which is you know the trust and the service and the brand that that we offer to our clients but then also the the merchant rewards so there's a rich history of of American Express providing a differentiated value proposition with the credit card rewards that that exists and we take take that capability into our our business relationships and make sure that it's a value add to those customers that want it so let's talk about what American Express is doing with Kupa what was it just announced with Koopa pay so yeah Koopa pay you know I was impressed by the stats that Rob put up there they're they're growing quickly and we want to be part of it we're a candidly following the requests of our clients who want American Express as a payment option inside the Koopa pay we offer a tremendous value prop inside of Koopa pay the data that flows with a payment the data that we're able to collect that differentiates us from our competition helps our our clients reconcile their payments eliminate the paper realize the efficiencies that that Koopas clients are excited about and so we're they're simply enabling American Express to be a payment option and my hope and I think Koopas hope is that that's step one of a partnership and and will be able to do more together to serve our collective clients so this is enabling American Express of virtual cards be available as a payment option within Kupa pay yes and what is a virtual card so virtual card is is a virtual credit card number it can be a one-time use or a multi-use okay and you know our our clients use it for several different reasons you know buyers of of goods use a virtual card in order to make the payment of a supplier easier to get more data along with the transaction so that they can reconcile a payment to a purchase order and to associated invoices the suppliers get benefit as well and in that they to get enhanced data to reconcile payment that they receive on their end there's also working capital benefit in that if if a buyer chooses to pay early an invoice we can extend financing and pay the the supplier earlier so that they have more working capital to operate their business and so so it's a real balanced value prop where both parties are realizing value is this going to enable a buyer to have benefits like increased security with the way the virtual card works yeah what increased security and so far as a virtual card isn't is encrypted the fact that you know American Express stands behind all of our card payments with our brand and our promise that differentiates from you know a traditional bank payment you know ACH and other other low value clearings that don't have those guarantees along with it and so so that is a big differentiator but but I think candidly the the biggest benefit our clients see is the enhanced data and the working capital I think that's where we're trying to enrich both sides of the transaction give more data to enable the automation that's happening in the industry and extend credit so that businesses can operate more efficiently and and and by the things that they need to buy and hire the people they need to hire is this also something that will give suppliers and buyers more visibility you talked about enhanced data well they now have more visibility over buyers like different supplier options or suppliers with different ways that they can get paid so certainly enhance visibility on on when a suppliers getting paid and relative to the invoice date and what we're trying to do is work with Koopa and work with our partners around well how do we enhance the data so that so that as you know Koopa talks about the community of suppliers that their buyers utilize how can we be part of that how do we support the buyers and making decisions the suppliers and utilizing American Express as a as a source to be a verified business that has gone through all the legal legal checks that are required in commerce and bringing both of those capabilities to to do a transaction on the Koopa Network one of the stats that Rob mentioned this morning and love stats I really geeked out over them I don't know why you say there's five million plus suppliers on the Koopa platform is that an advantage that American Express sees to help extend the footprint of your virtual cards absolutely I what I'm candidly more excited about is the millions and millions of suppliers that are on the American Express network and that's an asset that I see personally as something that we can work with with Koopa and other partners to bring you know the businesses that are already verified that are on our network that we personally talk to every you know every year and bring those verified profiles to the commerce networks like Koopa so that it's easier to transact on Koopa if you have an American Express card got it and then last question for you is if we look at this partnership what was announced today this is launching in the UK and Australia first and then you'll roll it up more globally can you tell me a little bit about why those two regions yeah one that's going to be available for customers to use so so the honest answer is we wanted to be fast to market and quick and quick out to our customer base the UK and Australia are two very important geographies for us so we're launching first in those places by the end of the year and then looking at rolling out in the US and early 2020 and then from their expanding alongside excellent well Dean thank you for joining me on the cube this afternoon sharing what's new with Amex and Cooper we appreciate your time thank you so much really happy to be here excellent for Dean Henry I'm Lisa Martin you're watching the cube from Cooper inspire London 19 thanks for watching [Laughter]

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From London, England, it's theCUBE. Covering Coupa Inspire'19 EMEA. Brought to you by Coupa. (gentle music) >> Hey, welcome to theCUBE. Lisa Martin, on the ground in London, at Coupa Inspire'19. Very pleased to welcome to theCUBE for the first time, we have Dean Henry, the EVP of Business Financing and Supplier Management from American Express. Dean, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, happy to be here. >> So let's talk about payments. Those of us in our day lives as consumers, the B2C transactions, they're so easy these days, right? You can transact from your phone, from your watch. We're doing everything. We're paying bills, we're buying things. Yet in the B2B space, business payments haven't had as rapid as innovation, as we've seen on the consumer side. Talk to me a little bit about the business-to-business payments industry from AMEX's perspective, before we get in to what you guys are doing with Coupa. >> Yeah well, first comment on the innovation you're absolutely right. The innovation that's happening in retail payments, hasn't made it's way to B2B payments. I think that's mostly a function of a consumer having the ease to try something new. Download an app, and change the way that they transact a bit at a store. Or, a bit with whomever they're paying. Whereas, a big business has a lot of processes that drive their business spend. And the way that they manage it, and systems. As we're here talking with Coupa today, the processes that they automate, that they bring, are critical to making payments happen. Because of that, there's just barriers to entry, that make B2B payments harder to mirror the speed, that you see in the retail side. That said, there's a lot of exciting things happening. B2B payments is a $127 trillion market globally. It's a big profit pool that a lot of players are innovating in. And when you look into the landscape and you consider who's playing out there. There's the traditional big banks, that have been sort of the stalwarts of global payments. There's obviously a large and growing fintech community, with new companies everyday that are in the media, offering new capabilities to clients. And then there's players like American Express. And I think we're actually uniquely positioned in that landscape, with not too many exactly like us. And when you look at the big banks and some of the challenges that they have. When I talk to our customers about fees, and processes that take awhile. Or money that moves with relative uncertainty, in terms of, how much is actually going to show up in the beneficiary's account, based on lifting fees, as money moves between banks. And then you look at the fintech community. That's new innovative solutions, but you're not sure that they're always going to be around, after the next funding cycle. I think we're trying to play in the middle. Where we're a great alternative to the fintech community. We're a global platform for payments. We're a global platform for lending. So we can really do all the things that a fintech can do. All the things that a bank can do, in many instances. And do that with the brand, and the certainty, that is AMEX. So we're excited about the space. And we're investing a lot of time, and energy. And partnering where we need to, in order to make sure our customers can transact where they want us to help them facilitate commerce. >> Right, that point of enabling a customer to transact where they want. What influences are you, is American Express, seeing and being able to infuse into your partnerships, from the consumer side? From that consumer who buys something with a click, or a swipe on Amazon, and wants to be able to do something similar, in their business day job. Tell me about the influence that American Express is seeing. And what that position that you just described, is allowing you guys to say, all right this is the direction that we're going to go in. Because we know we need to meet you, Mr. Customer, where you are. >> Right, well look I think part of it is demographics to be perfectly honest with you. Look at Gen Y, and Gen Z. They're more of the decision makers in today's management. They will be even more in tomorrow's management. And so they, to your point, have that expectation that their business life shouldn't be that much more complex, than their personal life. So, what we're trying to do is find the partners that have the best user experience. And make sure our solutions work seamlessly there. That's step one, that's what we're doing here with Coupa. Step two, is we're also trying to make sure that our capabilities on Amex, a digital real estate works just as easily as a our retail side of our business. And we're doing that with the unifying principles of American Express, which is the trust, and the service, and the brand that we offer to our clients. But then, also the merchant rewards. So there's a rich history of American Express providing a differentiated value proposition, with the credit card rewards that exist. And we take that capability into our business relationships, and make sure that it's a value add to those customers that want it. >> So let's talk about what American Express is doing with Coupa. What was just announced with Coupa Pay? >> So yeah, Coupa Pay, I was impressed by the stats that Rob put up there. They're growing quickly, and we want to be part of it. We're candidly following the requests of our clients who want American Express, as a payment option inside Coupa Pay. We offer a tremendous value prop inside of Coupa Pay. The data that flows with a payment, the data that we're able to collect, that differentiates us from our competition. Helps our clients reconcile their payments, eliminate the paper, realize the efficiencies that Coupa's clients are excited about. And so, we're there simply enabling American Express to be a payment option. And my hope, and I think Coupa's hope, is that that's step one of a partnership. And we'll be able to do more together, to serve our collective clients. >> So this is enabling American Express virtual cards to be available as a payment option, within Coupa Pay? >> Dean: Yes. >> And what is a virtual card? >> So a virtual card is a virtual credit card number. It can be a one-time use, or multi-use. >> Okay. >> Our clients use it for several different reasons. Buyers of goods use a virtual card, in order to make the payment of a supplier easier. To get more data, along with the transaction, so that they can reconcile a payment to a purchase order, and to associated invoices. The suppliers get benefit as well. In that, they too get enhanced data to reconcile a payment, that they receive on their end. There's also working capital benefit. In that, if a buyer chooses to pay early an invoice, we can extend financing, and pay the supplier earlier. So that they have more working capital to operate their business. So it's a real balanced value prop, where both parties are realizing value. >> Is this going to enable a buyer to have benefits, like increased security, with the way the virtual card works? >> Increase security, in so far as a virtual card is encrypted. The fact that American Express stands behind all of our card payments, with our brand and our promise. That differentiates from a traditional bank payment. You know ACH, and other low value clearings, that don't have those guarantees along with it. So that is a big differentiator. But I think candidly, the biggest benefit our clients see is the enhanced data, and the working capital. I think that's where we're trying to enrich both sides of the transaction. Give more data to enable the automation that's happening in the industry. And extend credit, so that businesses can operate more efficiently. And buy the things they need to buy. And hire the people they need to hire. >> Is this also something that will give suppliers, and buyers, more visibility? You talk about enhanced data. Will they now have more visibility over buyers, like different supplier options? Or suppliers, with different ways that they can get paid? >> So certainly, enhanced visibility on when a supplier is getting paid. And relative to the invoice date. And what we're trying to do is work with Coupa, and work with our partners around, well how do we enhance the data so that as Coupa talks about the community of suppliers, that their buyers utilize. How can we be part of that? How do we support the buyers in making decisions? The suppliers in utilizing American Express as a source to be a verified business, that has gone through all the legal checks, that are required in commerce. And bring both of those capabilities, to a transaction on the Coupa network. >> One of the stats that Rob mentioned this morning. I love stats, I really geek out over them, I don't know why. He said there's five million plus suppliers on the Coupa platform. Is that an advantage, that American Express sees, to help extend the footprint of your virtual cards? >> Absolutely, what I'm candidly more excited about is the millions, and millions, of suppliers that are on the American Express network. And that's an asset that I see personally, as something that we can work with Coupa, and other partners, to bring the businesses that are already verified. That are on our network, that we personally talk to every year. And bring those verified profiles to the commerce networks, like Coupa, so that it's easier to transact on Coupa, if you have an American Express card. >> Got it, and then last question for you is if we look at this partnership, what was announced today, this is launching in the UK and Australia first. And then, you'll roll it out more globally. Can you tell me a little bit about why those two regions? When that's going to be available for customers to use? >> So the honest answer is we wanted to be fast to market, quick out to our customer base. The UK and Australia, are two very important geographies for us. So we're launching first in those places, by the end of the year. And then, looking at rolling out in the US in early 2020. And then, from there expanding alongside Coupa globally. >> Tell me, as we're sitting here in London. Some of the interesting things going on, it's a lot of geopolitical challenges. Everybody knows about Brexit, and the election coming up, on the 12th of December. Tell me a little more about the UK market for American Express. What were some of the market dynamics that Amex said, hey there's an opportunity here for, I'll use a word that Coupa uses, acceleration, like accelerated time to market. Give me a little more about that. >> Yeah I mean candidly, like the geopolitics haven't really played into our launch. But the UK has been a strong market for Amex, for a very, very long time. Brighton, where we have a very big presence with the local football team in Brighton. That's just a metaphor for the broader extension, and client base, and employee presence that we have here. And so we wanted to make a big partnership announcement, in an important place. And the UK felt like the right market to do it in. >> Excellent, well Dean thank you for joining me on theCUBE this afternoon. Sharing what's new, with Amex and Coupa. We appreciate your time. >> Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here. >> Oh excellent. For Dean Henry, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, from Coupa Inspire London '19. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> A decade of big data investments combined with cloud scale, the rise of much more cost effective processing power. And the introduction of advanced tooling has catapulted machine intelligence to the forefront of technology investments. No matter what job you have, your operation will be AI powered within five years and machines may actually even be doing your job. Artificial intelligence is being infused into applications, infrastructure, equipment, and virtually every aspect of our lives. AI is proving to be extremely helpful at things like controlling vehicles, speeding up medical diagnoses, processing language, advancing science, and generally raising the stakes on what it means to apply technology for business advantage. But business value realization has been a challenge for most organizations due to lack of skills, complexity of programming models, immature technology integration, sizable upfront investments, ethical concerns, and lack of business alignment. Mastering AI technology will not be a requirement for success in our view. However, figuring out how and where to apply AI to your business will be crucial. That means understanding the business case, picking the right technology partner, experimenting in bite-sized chunks, and quickly identifying winners to double down on from an investment standpoint. Hello and welcome to this week's Wiki-bond CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we update you on the state of AI and what it means for the competition. And to do so, we invite into our studios Andy Thurai of Constellation Research. Andy covers AI deeply. He knows the players, he knows the pitfalls of AI investment, and he's a collaborator. Andy, great to have you on the program. Thanks for coming into our CUBE studios. >> Thanks for having me on. >> You're very welcome. Okay, let's set the table with a premise and a series of assertions we want to test with Andy. I'm going to lay 'em out. And then Andy, I'd love for you to comment. So, first of all, according to McKinsey, AI adoption has more than doubled since 2017, but only 10% of organizations report seeing significant ROI. That's a BCG and MIT study. And part of that challenge of AI is it requires data, is requires good data, data proficiency, which is not trivial, as you know. Firms that can master both data and AI, we believe are going to have a competitive advantage this decade. Hyperscalers, as we show you dominate AI and ML. We'll show you some data on that. And having said that, there's plenty of room for specialists. They need to partner with the cloud vendors for go to market productivity. And finally, organizations increasingly have to put data and AI at the center of their enterprises. And to do that, most are going to rely on vendor R&D to leverage AI and ML. In other words, Andy, they're going to buy it and apply it as opposed to build it. What are your thoughts on that setup and that premise? >> Yeah, I see that a lot happening in the field, right? So first of all, the only 10% of realizing a return on investment. That's so true because we talked about this earlier, the most companies are still in the innovation cycle. So they're trying to innovate and see what they can do to apply. A lot of these times when you look at the solutions, what they come up with or the models they create, the experimentation they do, most times they don't even have a good business case to solve, right? So they just experiment and then they figure it out, "Oh my God, this model is working. Can we do something to solve it?" So it's like you found a hammer and then you're trying to find the needle kind of thing, right? That never works. >> 'Cause it's cool or whatever it is. >> It is, right? So that's why, I always advise, when they come to me and ask me things like, "Hey, what's the right way to do it? What is the secret sauce?" And, we talked about this. The first thing I tell them is, "Find out what is the business case that's having the most amount of problems, that that can be solved using some of the AI use cases," right? Not all of them can be solved. Even after you experiment, do the whole nine yards, spend millions of dollars on that, right? And later on you make it efficient only by saving maybe $50,000 for the company or a $100,000 for the company, is it really even worth the experiment, right? So you got to start with the saying that, you know, where's the base for this happening? Where's the need? What's a business use case? It doesn't have to be about cost efficient and saving money in the existing processes. It could be a new thing. You want to bring in a new revenue stream, but figure out what is a business use case, how much money potentially I can make off of that. The same way that start-ups go after. Right? >> Yeah. Pretty straightforward. All right, let's take a look at where ML and AI fit relative to the other hot sectors of the ETR dataset. This XY graph shows net score spending velocity in the vertical axis and presence in the survey, they call it sector perversion for the October survey, the January survey's in the field. Then that squiggly line on ML/AI represents the progression. Since the January 21 survey, you can see the downward trajectory. And we position ML and AI relative to the other big four hot sectors or big three, including, ML/AI is four. Containers, cloud and RPA. These have consistently performed above that magic 40% red dotted line for most of the past two years. Anything above 40%, we think is highly elevated. And we've just included analytics and big data for context and relevant adjacentness, if you will. Now note that green arrow moving toward, you know, the 40% mark on ML/AI. I got a glimpse of the January survey, which is in the field. It's got more than a thousand responses already, and it's trending up for the current survey. So Andy, what do you make of this downward trajectory over the past seven quarters and the presumed uptick in the coming months? >> So one of the things you have to keep in mind is when the pandemic happened, it's about survival mode, right? So when somebody's in a survival mode, what happens, the luxury and the innovations get cut. That's what happens. And this is exactly what happened in the situation. So as you can see in the last seven quarters, which is almost dating back close to pandemic, everybody was trying to keep their operations alive, especially digital operations. How do I keep the lights on? That's the most important thing for them. So while the numbers spent on AI, ML is less overall, I still think the AI ML to spend to sort of like a employee experience or the IT ops, AI ops, ML ops, as we talked about, some of those areas actually went up. There are companies, we talked about it, Atlassian had a lot of platform issues till the amount of money people are spending on that is exorbitant and simply because they are offering the solution that was not available other way. So there are companies out there, you can take AoPS or incident management for that matter, right? A lot of companies have a digital insurance, they don't know how to properly manage it. How do you find an intern solve it immediately? That's all using AI ML and some of those areas actually growing unbelievable, the companies in that area. >> So this is a really good point. If you can you bring up that chart again, what Andy's saying is a lot of the companies in the ETR taxonomy that are doing things with AI might not necessarily show up in a granular fashion. And I think the other point I would make is, these are still highly elevated numbers. If you put on like storage and servers, they would read way, way down the list. And, look in the pandemic, we had to deal with work from home, we had to re-architect the network, we had to worry about security. So those are really good points that you made there. Let's, unpack this a little bit and look at the ML AI sector and the ETR data and specifically at the players and get Andy to comment on this. This chart here shows the same x y dimensions, and it just notes some of the players that are specifically have services and products that people spend money on, that CIOs and IT buyers can comment on. So the table insert shows how the companies are plotted, it's net score, and then the ends in the survey. And Andy, the hyperscalers are dominant, as you can see. You see Databricks there showing strong as a specialist, and then you got to pack a six or seven in there. And then Oracle and IBM, kind of the big whales of yester year are in the mix. And to your point, companies like Salesforce that you mentioned to me offline aren't in that mix, but they do a lot in AI. But what are your takeaways from that data? >> If you could put the slide back on please. I want to make quick comments on a couple of those. So the first one is, it's surprising other hyperscalers, right? As you and I talked about this earlier, AWS is more about logo blocks. We discussed that, right? >> Like what? Like a SageMaker as an example. >> We'll give you all the components what do you need. Whether it's MLOps component or whether it's, CodeWhisperer that we talked about, or a oral platform or data or data, whatever you want. They'll give you the blocks and then you'll build things on top of it, right? But Google took a different way. Matter of fact, if we did those numbers a few years ago, Google would've been number one because they did a lot of work with their acquisition of DeepMind and other things. They're way ahead of the pack when it comes to AI for longest time. Now, I think Microsoft's move of partnering and taking a huge competitor out would open the eyes is unbelievable. You saw that everybody is talking about chat GPI, right? And the open AI tool and ChatGPT rather. Remember as Warren Buffet is saying that, when my laundry lady comes and talk to me about stock market, it's heated up. So that's how it's heated up. Everybody's using ChatGPT. What that means is at the end of the day is they're creating, it's still in beta, keep in mind. It's not fully... >> Can you play with it a little bit? >> I have a little bit. >> I have, but it's good and it's not good. You know what I mean? >> Look, so at the end of the day, you take the massive text of all the available text in the world today, mass them all together. And then you ask a question, it's going to basically search through that and figure it out and answer that back. Yes, it's good. But again, as we discussed, if there's no business use case of what problem you're going to solve. This is building hype. But then eventually they'll figure out, for example, all your chats, online chats, could be aided by your AI chat bots, which is already there, which is not there at that level. This could build help that, right? Or the other thing we talked about is one of the areas where I'm more concerned about is that it is able to produce equal enough original text at the level that humans can produce, for example, ChatGPT or the equal enough, the large language transformer can help you write stories as of Shakespeare wrote it. Pretty close to it. It'll learn from that. So when it comes down to it, talk about creating messages, articles, blogs, especially during political seasons, not necessarily just in US, but anywhere for that matter. If people are able to produce at the emission speed and throw it at the consumers and confuse them, the elections can be won, the governments can be toppled. >> Because to your point about chatbots is chatbots have obviously, reduced the number of bodies that you need to support chat. But they haven't solved the problem of serving consumers. Most of the chat bots are conditioned response, which of the following best describes your problem? >> The current chatbot. >> Yeah. Hey, did we solve your problem? No. Is the answer. So that has some real potential. But if you could bring up that slide again, Ken, I mean you've got the hyperscalers that are dominant. You talked about Google and Microsoft is ubiquitous, they seem to be dominant in every ETR category. But then you have these other specialists. How do those guys compete? And maybe you could even, cite some of the guys that you know, how do they compete with the hyperscalers? What's the key there for like a C3 ai or some of the others that are on there? >> So I've spoken with at least two of the CEOs of the smaller companies that you have on the list. One of the things they're worried about is that if they continue to operate independently without being part of hyperscaler, either the hyperscalers will develop something to compete against them full scale, or they'll become irrelevant. Because at the end of the day, look, cloud is dominant. Not many companies are going to do like AI modeling and training and deployment the whole nine yards by independent by themselves. They're going to depend on one of the clouds, right? So if they're already going to be in the cloud, by taking them out to come to you, it's going to be extremely difficult issue to solve. So all these companies are going and saying, "You know what? We need to be in hyperscalers." For example, you could have looked at DataRobot recently, they made announcements, Google and AWS, and they are all over the place. So you need to go where the customers are. Right? >> All right, before we go on, I want to share some other data from ETR and why people adopt AI and get your feedback. So the data historically shows that feature breadth and technical capabilities were the main decision points for AI adoption, historically. What says to me that it's too much focus on technology. In your view, is that changing? Does it have to change? Will it change? >> Yes. Simple answer is yes. So here's the thing. The data you're speaking from is from previous years. >> Yes >> I can guarantee you, if you look at the latest data that's coming in now, those two will be a secondary and tertiary points. The number one would be about ROI. And how do I achieve? I've spent ton of money on all of my experiments. This is the same thing theme I'm seeing across when talking to everybody who's spending money on AI. I've spent so much money on it. When can I get it live in production? How much, how can I quickly get it? Because you know, the board is breathing down their neck. You already spend this much money. Show me something that's valuable. So the ROI is going to become, take it from me, I'm predicting this for 2023, that's going to become number one. >> Yeah, and if people focus on it, they'll figure it out. Okay. Let's take a look at some of the top players that won, some of the names we just looked at and double click on that and break down their spending profile. So the chart here shows the net score, how net score is calculated. So pay attention to the second set of bars that Databricks, who was pretty prominent on the previous chart. And we've annotated the colors. The lime green is, we're bringing the platform in new. The forest green is, we're going to spend 6% or more relative to last year. And the gray is flat spending. The pinkish is our spending's going to be down on AI and ML, 6% or worse. And the red is churn. So you don't want big red. You subtract the reds from the greens and you get net score, which is shown by those blue dots that you see there. So AWS has the highest net score and very little churn. I mean, single low single digit churn. But notably, you see Databricks and DataRobot are next in line within Microsoft and Google also, they've got very low churn. Andy, what are your thoughts on this data? >> So a couple of things that stands out to me. Most of them are in line with my conversation with customers. Couple of them stood out to me on how bad IBM Watson is doing. >> Yeah, bring that back up if you would. Let's take a look at that. IBM Watson is the far right and the red, that bright red is churning and again, you want low red here. Why do you think that is? >> Well, so look, IBM has been in the forefront of innovating things for many, many years now, right? And over the course of years we talked about this, they moved from a product innovation centric company into more of a services company. And over the years they were making, as at one point, you know that they were making about majority of that money from services. Now things have changed Arvind has taken over, he came from research. So he's doing a great job of trying to reinvent themselves as a company. But it's going to have a long way to catch up. IBM Watson, if you think about it, that played what, jeopardy and chess years ago, like 15 years ago? >> It was jaw dropping when you first saw it. And then they weren't able to commercialize that. >> Yeah. >> And you're making a good point. When Gerstner took over IBM at the time, John Akers wanted to split the company up. He wanted to have a database company, he wanted to have a storage company. Because that's where the industry trend was, Gerstner said no, he came from AMEX, right? He came from American Express. He said, "No, we're going to have a single throat to choke for the customer." They bought PWC for relatively short money. I think it was $15 billion, completely transformed and I would argue saved IBM. But the trade off was, it sort of took them out of product leadership. And so from Gerstner to Palmisano to Remedi, it was really a services led company. And I think Arvind is really bringing it back to a product company with strong consulting. I mean, that's one of the pillars. And so I think that's, they've got a strong story in data and AI. They just got to sort of bring it together and better. Bring that chart up one more time. I want to, the other point is Oracle, Oracle sort of has the dominant lock-in for mission critical database and they're sort of applying AI there. But to your point, they're really not an AI company in the sense that they're taking unstructured data and doing sort of new things. It's really about how to make Oracle better, right? >> Well, you got to remember, Oracle is about database for the structure data. So in yesterday's world, they were dominant database. But you know, if you are to start storing like videos and texts and audio and other things, and then start doing search of vector search and all that, Oracle is not necessarily the database company of choice. And they're strongest thing being apps and building AI into the apps? They are kind of surviving in that area. But again, I wouldn't name them as an AI company, right? But the other thing that that surprised me in that list, what you showed me is yes, AWS is number one. >> Bring that back up if you would, Ken. >> AWS is number one as you, it should be. But what what actually caught me by surprise is how DataRobot is holding, you know? I mean, look at that. The either net new addition and or expansion, DataRobot seem to be doing equally well, even better than Microsoft and Google. That surprises me. >> DataRobot's, and again, this is a function of spending momentum. So remember from the previous chart that Microsoft and Google, much, much larger than DataRobot. DataRobot more niche. But with spending velocity and has always had strong spending velocity, despite some of the recent challenges, organizational challenges. And then you see these other specialists, H2O.ai, Anaconda, dataiku, little bit of red showing there C3.ai. But these again, to stress are the sort of specialists other than obviously the hyperscalers. These are the specialists in AI. All right, so we hit the bigger names in the sector. Now let's take a look at the emerging technology companies. And one of the gems of the ETR dataset is the emerging technology survey. It's called ETS. They used to just do it like twice a year. It's now run four times a year. I just discovered it kind of mid-2022. And it's exclusively focused on private companies that are potential disruptors, they might be M&A candidates and if they've raised enough money, they could be acquirers of companies as well. So Databricks would be an example. They've made a number of investments in companies. SNEAK would be another good example. Companies that are private, but they're buyers, they hope to go IPO at some point in time. So this chart here, shows the emerging companies in the ML AI sector of the ETR dataset. So the dimensions of this are similar, they're net sentiment on the Y axis and mind share on the X axis. Basically, the ETS study measures awareness on the x axis and intent to do something with, evaluate or implement or not, on that vertical axis. So it's like net score on the vertical where negatives are subtracted from the positives. And again, mind share is vendor awareness. That's the horizontal axis. Now that inserted table shows net sentiment and the ends in the survey, which informs the position of the dots. And you'll notice we're plotting TensorFlow as well. We know that's not a company, but it's there for reference as open source tooling is an option for customers. And ETR sometimes like to show that as a reference point. Now we've also drawn a line for Databricks to show how relatively dominant they've become in the past 10 ETS surveys and sort of mind share going back to late 2018. And you can see a dozen or so other emerging tech vendors. So Andy, I want you to share your thoughts on these players, who were the ones to watch, name some names. We'll bring that data back up as you as you comment. >> So Databricks, as you said, remember we talked about how Oracle is not necessarily the database of the choice, you know? So Databricks is kind of trying to solve some of the issue for AI/ML workloads, right? And the problem is also there is no one company that could solve all of the problems. For example, if you look at the names in here, some of them are database names, some of them are platform names, some of them are like MLOps companies like, DataRobot (indistinct) and others. And some of them are like future based companies like, you know, the Techton and stuff. >> So it's a mix of those sub sectors? >> It's a mix of those companies. >> We'll talk to ETR about that. They'd be interested in your input on how to make this more granular and these sub-sectors. You got Hugging Face in here, >> Which is NLP, yeah. >> Okay. So your take, are these companies going to get acquired? Are they going to go IPO? Are they going to merge? >> Well, most of them going to get acquired. My prediction would be most of them will get acquired because look, at the end of the day, hyperscalers need these capabilities, right? So they're going to either create their own, AWS is very good at doing that. They have done a lot of those things. But the other ones, like for particularly Azure, they're going to look at it and saying that, "You know what, it's going to take time for me to build this. Why don't I just go and buy you?" Right? Or or even the smaller players like Oracle or IBM Cloud, this will exist. They might even take a look at them, right? So at the end of the day, a lot of these companies are going to get acquired or merged with others. >> Yeah. All right, let's wrap with some final thoughts. I'm going to make some comments Andy, and then ask you to dig in here. Look, despite the challenge of leveraging AI, you know, Ken, if you could bring up the next chart. We're not repeating, we're not predicting the AI winter of the 1990s. Machine intelligence. It's a superpower that's going to permeate every aspect of the technology industry. AI and data strategies have to be connected. Leveraging first party data is going to increase AI competitiveness and shorten time to value. Andy, I'd love your thoughts on that. I know you've got some thoughts on governance and AI ethics. You know, we talked about ChatGBT, Deepfakes, help us unpack all these trends. >> So there's so much information packed up there, right? The AI and data strategy, that's very, very, very important. If you don't have a proper data, people don't realize that AI is, your AI is the morals that you built on, it's predominantly based on the data what you have. It's not, AI cannot predict something that's going to happen without knowing what it is. It need to be trained, it need to understand what is it you're talking about. So 99% of the time you got to have a good data for you to train. So this where I mentioned to you, the problem is a lot of these companies can't afford to collect the real world data because it takes too long, it's too expensive. So a lot of these companies are trying to do the synthetic data way. It has its own set of issues because you can't use all... >> What's that synthetic data? Explain that. >> Synthetic data is basically not a real world data, but it's a created or simulated data equal and based on real data. It looks, feels, smells, taste like a real data, but it's not exactly real data, right? This is particularly useful in the financial and healthcare industry for world. So you don't have to, at the end of the day, if you have real data about your and my medical history data, if you redact it, you can still reverse this. It's fairly easy, right? >> Yeah, yeah. >> So by creating a synthetic data, there is no correlation between the real data and the synthetic data. >> So that's part of AI ethics and privacy and, okay. >> So the synthetic data, the issue with that is that when you're trying to commingle that with that, you can't create models based on just on synthetic data because synthetic data, as I said is artificial data. So basically you're creating artificial models, so you got to blend in properly that that blend is the problem. And you know how much of real data, how much of synthetic data you could use. You got to use judgment between efficiency cost and the time duration stuff. So that's one-- >> And risk >> And the risk involved with that. And the secondary issues which we talked about is that when you're creating, okay, you take a business use case, okay, you think about investing things, you build the whole thing out and you're trying to put it out into the market. Most companies that I talk to don't have a proper governance in place. They don't have ethics standards in place. They don't worry about the biases in data, they just go on trying to solve a business case >> It's wild west. >> 'Cause that's what they start. It's a wild west! And then at the end of the day when they are close to some legal litigation action or something or something else happens and that's when the Oh Shit! moments happens, right? And then they come in and say, "You know what, how do I fix this?" The governance, security and all of those things, ethics bias, data bias, de-biasing, none of them can be an afterthought. It got to start with the, from the get-go. So you got to start at the beginning saying that, "You know what, I'm going to do all of those AI programs, but before we get into this, we got to set some framework for doing all these things properly." Right? And then the-- >> Yeah. So let's go back to the key points. I want to bring up the cloud again. Because you got to get cloud right. Getting that right matters in AI to the points that you were making earlier. You can't just be out on an island and hyperscalers, they're going to obviously continue to do well. They get more and more data's going into the cloud and they have the native tools. To your point, in the case of AWS, Microsoft's obviously ubiquitous. Google's got great capabilities here. They've got integrated ecosystems partners that are going to continue to strengthen through the decade. What are your thoughts here? >> So a couple of things. One is the last mile ML or last mile AI that nobody's talking about. So that need to be attended to. There are lot of players in the market that coming up, when I talk about last mile, I'm talking about after you're done with the experimentation of the model, how fast and quickly and efficiently can you get it to production? So that's production being-- >> Compressing that time is going to put dollars in your pocket. >> Exactly. Right. >> So once, >> If you got it right. >> If you get it right, of course. So there are, there are a couple of issues with that. Once you figure out that model is working, that's perfect. People don't realize, the moment you decide that moment when the decision is made, it's like a new car. After you purchase the value decreases on a minute basis. Same thing with the models. Once the model is created, you need to be in production right away because it starts losing it value on a seconds minute basis. So issue number one, how fast can I get it over there? So your deployment, you are inferencing efficiently at the edge locations, your optimization, your security, all of this is at issue. But you know what is more important than that in the last mile? You keep the model up, you continue to work on, again, going back to the car analogy, at one point you got to figure out your car is costing more than to operate. So you got to get a new car, right? And that's the same thing with the models as well. If your model has reached a stage, it is actually a potential risk for your operation. To give you an idea, if Uber has a model, the first time when you get a car from going from point A to B cost you $60. If the model decayed the next time I might give you a $40 rate, I would take it definitely. But it's lost for the company. The business risk associated with operating on a bad model, you should realize it immediately, pull the model out, retrain it, redeploy it. That's is key. >> And that's got to be huge in security model recency and security to the extent that you can get real time is big. I mean you, you see Palo Alto, CrowdStrike, a lot of other security companies are injecting AI. Again, they won't show up in the ETR ML/AI taxonomy per se as a pure play. But ServiceNow is another company that you have have mentioned to me, offline. AI is just getting embedded everywhere. >> Yep. >> And then I'm glad you brought up, kind of real-time inferencing 'cause a lot of the modeling, if we can go back to the last point that we're going to make, a lot of the AI today is modeling done in the cloud. The last point we wanted to make here, I'd love to get your thoughts on this, is real-time AI inferencing for instance at the edge is going to become increasingly important for us. It's going to usher in new economics, new types of silicon, particularly arm-based. We've covered that a lot on "Breaking Analysis", new tooling, new companies and that could disrupt the sort of cloud model if new economics emerge. 'Cause cloud obviously very centralized, they're trying to decentralize it. But over the course of this decade we could see some real disruption there. Andy, give us your final thoughts on that. >> Yes and no. I mean at the end of the day, cloud is kind of centralized now, but a lot of this companies including, AWS is kind of trying to decentralize that by putting their own sub-centers and edge locations. >> Local zones, outposts. >> Yeah, exactly. Particularly the outpost concept. And if it can even become like a micro center and stuff, it won't go to the localized level of, I go to a single IOT level. But again, the cloud extends itself to that level. So if there is an opportunity need for it, the hyperscalers will figure out a way to fit that model. So I wouldn't too much worry about that, about deployment and where to have it and what to do with that. But you know, figure out the right business use case, get the right data, get the ethics and governance place and make sure they get it to production and make sure you pull the model out when it's not operating well. >> Excellent advice. Andy, I got to thank you for coming into the studio today, helping us with this "Breaking Analysis" segment. Outstanding collaboration and insights and input in today's episode. Hope we can do more. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. >> You're very welcome. All right. I want to thank Alex Marson who's on production and manages the podcast. Ken Schiffman as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight helped get the word out on social media and our newsletters. And Rob Hoof is our editor-in-chief over at Silicon Angle. He does some great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these episodes are available as podcast. Wherever you listen, all you got to do is search "Breaking Analysis" podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and silicon angle.com or you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com to get in touch, or DM me at dvellante or comment on our LinkedIn posts. Please check out ETR.AI for the best survey data and the enterprise tech business, Constellation Research. Andy publishes there some awesome information on AI and data. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching everybody and we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis". (gentle closing tune plays)

>>from the bellagio hotel in Las Vegas >>it's the >>cube >>covering Ui >>Path Forward four brought to you >>by Ui Path. >>Welcome back to las Vegas. The cube is live with you. I Path forward four at the bellagio lisa martin with Dave Volonte. We're gonna be talking about you I Path integration suite, we have a couple of guests joining us here. Mark Jeannie is here the GM of Ui Path, formerly the co founder and Ceo of cloud elements and Peter Villeroy also joins us Director of Global I. T. Automation practice at UI Path guys welcome to the program. >>Thanks lisa. Great to hear. >>So Mark, let's go ahead and start with you. The Cloud elements acquisition was done in about the last six months. Talk to us about why you chose to be acquired by Ui Path and where things are today. Some big announcements yesterday. >>Yeah absolutely. So yeah if you go back six months ago um you know we have been in conversations with you I Path for for quite a while and um you know as we were looking at our opportunities as an api integration platform. So cloud elements just to step back a little bit um was a leader in helping companies take a P. I. S integrate applications together and bed that into their into their apps and um you know I Path approached us about the combination of what's happening in the automation world and you know these these have been a society as the marine Fleming from I. D. C. Mentioned this morning integration and DARPA have been separate swim lanes and what we saw and what you I. Path approaches with was ability to combine these together and really be the first company to take and take ui automation and seamlessly connected together with A. P. I. Automation or api integration >>Peter What's been some of the feedback? We know you guys are more than 9000 customers strong now we've had a whole bunch of amount yesterday and today. What's been the feedback so far on the cloud elements acquisition? So >>there's a huge amount of interest. We've had very positive feedback on that lisa the combination of Ui driven automation and A. P. I. Uh Native Integrations is is key especially to the I. T. Leadership that I work with. Um some of whom have traditionally compartmentalized you ipads platform in the Ui space and legitimately think about their own internal processes as being having very little to do with the user interface right. And so combining Ui driven automation together with uh api integration really helps too pick them up where they are and show them the power of that kind of a hyper automation platform that can deliver value in a number of spaces. And you guys ever >>see the movie Blindside? All right. You know what I'm talking about with joe. Theismann gets hit from the blind side and then his career is over and and that's when people realized oh my gosh the left tackle for right handed quarterback is so important and it's subsequent drafts when somebody would pick a left tackle like a good left all the rest went and that's what's happening in in the automation business today. You guys took the lead, you you set the trend. People said wow this is actually going to be a huge market. And then now we're seeing all this gonna occur. And a lot of it from these big software companies who believe every dollar of software should go to them saying hey we can actually profit from this within our own vertical stacks. So what do you make of all the M. And A. That's going on in particular? There was one recently where private equity firm is mashing together a long time R. P. A vendor with a long time integration firm. So it looks like you guys, you know on the right >>side of history in this regard. Your thoughts. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean if you think about automation right you've got to obviously help people do their jobs better. But if you're going to automate a process and a department you needed connect the applications that they use that those people use otherwise you can't accomplish it. And where ap is fit in as is automation and ui automation has become more and more mission critical and it's become bigger and bigger part of enterprise I. T. Wants to get involved. And so enterprise gets involved and what's their stack. It's api based their technology stack is how you connect back is through api so more and more companies are seeing what you I path saw is that if you're gonna automate every process and every department for every person you need to connect to every application that they're using and that's why this is now becoming right. Three companies now just recently have done these types of acquisitions of bringing an integration platform in and combining them together are trying to combine them together. >>All mps are not created equally as we know. Some are sort of half baked lot of them. Many of them don't have decent documentation so there's sort of a spectrum there. How do you, how do you think about prioritizing? How do you think about the landscape? Do you just kind of ignore the stuff that's not well documented and eventually that will take care of itself. How should we think about there have always >>been layers of integration right. Especially working with the ICTy organizations. So you've got our native integrations would make it easy to drag and drop activities and then you've got the A. P. I. Is that we can consume with various activities. That area has really grown through the acquisition of cloud elements and then you've got that third layer where when all else fails, you go on to the user interface and interact with the application like a human does and what you see is that our our interaction with college elements really enables a great enhancement of that lower base level um which is mildly interesting to the lines of business very important. I Yeah, for sure. >>So the reason I asked that question is I was talking to one of your customers this big ASAP customers said I love you ipad. The problem I have is I got so many custom mods and so it's just you know orally documented and I can't I wanna put automation in there but I can't. So to those parts of the tech stack become like the main frame of you know what I mean? And just sort of they live there and they just keep doing their thing but there's so much innovation that pops up around it. How do you how do you see that? >>Well that's part of the agility that comes with the platform like you ipads is that you can interact with the very clean uh swagger documented restful aPI s and you can interact with SCP on their proprietary ages old A. P. I. S. Um Those are things that we've traditionally done decently well, but again through this acquisition we could do that on a grander scale um with bidirectional triggering and all the goodness that you >>solve that problem today that your customer and this is a couple of years ago, you can solve that problem with cloud elements. Is that right? >>Yeah, absolutely. The the ability to integrate too these enterprise platforms like ASAP you need multiple tools to do the job. Right. So ui automation is great but if you've customized ui significantly or other things like that then the A. P. I can be a great structure for it and other cases where um that api provides a resiliency in a in a scale to it that um opens up new processes as well to those corporate systems. Right? So the balance of being able to bring these two worlds together is where you can unlock more because you got >>east west automation >>that's very good overhead and now >>you're going north south with cloud elements is deeper. Right, >>bottom line from the VP of its point of view, the more that can be done from a machine to machine communication the better. So sure. >>What's the opportunity for the existing cloud elements customers to take advantage of here? >>Yeah, absolutely. Um We've continued to support, brought our customers over with us. Uh Part of our customer base has actually been a significant number of software customers. Uh cos S. A. P. S. One of them doc you sign gain site, you know, so household names in the world of software as well as large financial services institutions like US Bank and Capital One and american Express, all of them had that common need where um they wanted to have an api centric approach to being able to connect to customers and partners and leverage our platform to do that. So we will continue to support that extend that. But we see opportunities where again we couldn't automate everything for our customers just threw a PS And uh you know for example one of our major financial services institutions were working with wants to take um and provide a robot for their uh customers and commercial payments to be able to automatically kick off in A. P. I. And so that seamless integration where we can combine that automation with robots leveraging and kicking off a P. I. S automatically takes us further into automating those processes for those >>customers. So you guys six months right. Uh talk about how that integration api integration company better gone smoothly. But what was that like you guys are getting the knack of M and a talk about that, what you learn maybe what you would do differently to even accelerate further, How'd it go? Uh >>That's the best answer from you having been on the >>acquisition side. Um Well we how well it went is six months later, which I think is really unheard of in the technology world, we're introducing our combined offering you I Path integration service that essentially takes what cloud elements built embeds it right into automation. Cloud studio in the Ui Path products. We and uh it's been a global effort. Right? So we had the Ui Path team was based in Hyderabad Denver and Dallas and then we've got um Ui Path engineers working with that cloud elements team that are in Bucharest Bellevue and bangalore and with the miracles of zoom and uh that type of thing, never meeting anyone in person, we were able to integrate the product together and launch it here today >>six months is a fast turnaround time frame was how much of that was accelerated by the, by the fact of the global situation that we're in. >>Yeah, well you know in some respects that that helped right? Because we um um we didn't have to waste time traveling and we could hop on zoom calls instantly. We spent a lot of time even over zoom making sure there was a cultural fit. You I path has a, you know, not only the humble, bold and type of values but it's a very collaborative environment, very open and collaborative environment as Brent can attest to. And that collaboration, I think in that spirit of collaboration really helped us feel welcome and move quickly to pull this together. And also >>the necessity is the mother of innovation right. Uh you ipad traditionally being popular in the CFOs organization were becoming the C I O s best friend and the timing was right to introduce this kind of capability to combine with what we traditionally do well and really move into their picking up like I said the customer where they are and leading them into that fully end to end automation capability and this was integral. So it wasn't time to kick the tires but to get moving >>and my right, there's a governance play here as well because I. T. Is kind of generally responsible for governance if you make it easier for them to whatever governance systems they're using >>governance privacy >>security that now you can just connect. They don't have to rip and replace. Is there an angle there? >>Sure, yeah. So nothing is more important than I. T. Than than control and governments and change management and half of the uh conversations we're having out there on the floor are around that right um uh ensuring that all of the good governance is in place um and we have a lot of the uh integrations and frameworks necessary to help that through your devops pipeline and doing proper ci cd and test automation um and you know introducing that integration layer in addition to what we already have just helps all of that to uh move more smoothly and bring more value to our customers. >>Mark talk to me about some of the feedback from customers that you mentioned, doc Watson. S A P probably I imagine joint customers with you. I path now there you're working together, what's the what's in it for them? >>Yeah, no the feedback has been tremendous. Right, so um api automation is not new to you. I path but customers have been asking for more capability. So one of them is in that governance area that we were just talking about, right, the ability to create connections centrally enable them disable them. Right? You got mission critical corporate applications. You want to be able to make sure that those applications are being controlled and monitored. Right? So that was one aspect. And by bringing this as a cloud based service, we can accomplish that. Um the other area is that this eventing capability, the ability to kick off workflows and processes based on changes to corporate applications, a new employees added in workday. I want to kick off a process to onboard that new employee and that triggered eventing service has been really well received and then um yeah, so that I'd say with the ability to also create new connections more simply was the third big factor. Uh we created a standardized authentication service. So no matter where you are in the UI Path product line, you get a consistent way to create a new connection, whether it's a personal connection by a business user too, you know, google docs or Microsoft office or your C O E R I T. Creating a connection to uh an important corporate system. >>How about the partner? I know you guys had partner day here leading into forward for they must be stoked about this gives you a lever to even add new partners. What was those >>conversations like? Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. The partners are excited about those same features but um they're also excited about something in our roadmap which we expect to be previewing early next year and that's a connector builder. So the ability for partners to uh more quickly than ever create their own connectors. That'll work just like first party connectors that we ui Path build and add them into catalogs, share them in the market place. So there's new revenue opportunities, new opportunities for partners to create reusable assets that they can leverage and yeah so um lots of things, lots of work to continue to do, right? It's only been six months and uh but that's that's gonna be a big initiative going forward. >>So integration service as you mentioned, announced at this conference, we know that that's the first step obviously accomplished as we also talked about very quickly in a six month time period. But what does the future hold for api automation and integration service? >>So um one of the key areas just continue to expose the integration service um more broadly in the Ui Path product portfolio. Now that we have this service, more Ui Path products will be able to leverage it. Right? We're starting off with studio and orchestrator but that we can all use and share that common common capability. Um The other is to make access to complex business systems easier. So you think about it right. A uh to get a purchase order from net suite might take five or six api calls to do. Well, a citizen developer doesn't know what those five or six things you have to do. So we'll be creating these business activities or just get me open purchase orders that will work seamlessly in the studio product. And behind the scenes. Well, chain together those 56 aPI calls to make that a simple process. Right? So taking the integration service and making it even more powerful tool for that citizen developer than nontechnical user as well. So that's >>development work you're going to do. >>That's what we're gonna do as well as enable partners to do as well. So it's a key part of our road map over time. Because >>yeah I mean the partner pieces key because when net suite changes how it you're creating that abstraction layer. So but that's value add for the partners. >>Absolutely. And they have that domain expertise, right. They can create assets, leveraging the UI path automation capabilities but also bring their knowledge about A. S. A. P. Or workday and those oracle ebs and those core business systems and then combine that together into assets that enhance integration service that they build and I can I can share with their customers and share with our market >>because the work workday developer is going to know about that well ahead of time. No, >>it's coming and they know better than we do. Right. That's their business. That's what they know really well. >>Nice nice value at opportunity, peter >>One of the things that you iPad has been known for is its being very and I've said this on the program the last two days, that's being a good use case for land and expand. You guys have 70% of revenue that comes from existing customers. Talk to me about the cloud elements acquisition as a facilitator of because you kind of mentioned, you know, we're used to be really in bed with the cfos now we're going to see us and we've heard from a number of your customers where they started in finance and it's now Enterprise White, how is this going to help facilitate that? Even more? >>It really helps, you know, touching on what Mark just mentioned about the citizen developer, right, just as one of many examples, the empowerment of end users to automate things for themselves um is critical to that land and expand um successes that we've been seeing and where from an I. T standpoint, the frustration with the citizen developer is, you know, maybe what they're building isn't so top notch right? It works for themselves. What we can't replicate that, but put making it easy to make api integration part of what they do in studio X is so key to enhancing also the reusability of what's coming out of there. So that c uh C O E S can replicate that across teams are globally within their organization and that's part of land and expand because you may find something that's valuable in one line of business replicates easily into another line of business if the tool set is in place >>pretty powerful model lisa >>it is guys. Thanks so much for joining us today, talking about the club elements acquisition, what you're uh, doing with integration service, What's to come the opportunities in it for both sides and your partners? We appreciate your time. >>Great. Thank you. Thank you very much. I >>appreciate it. Thank you for >>David Want I'm lisa martin. You're watching the cube live in las Vegas at the bellagio Ui Path forward for stick around. We'll be right back. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm mm.

>>from around the globe. >>It's the cube with coverage of Kublai khan and cloud Native >>Con, Europe 2021 Virtual >>brought to you by >>red hat, cloud >>Native Computing foundation >>and ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of coupon 21 cloud native con 21 part of the C N C s annual event this year. It's Virtual. Again, I'm john Kerry host of the cube and we have two great guests from the C N C. F. Cheryl Hung VP of ecosystems and Katie Manji who's the ecosystem advocate for C N C F. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you. I wish we were in person soon, maybe in the fall. Cheryl Katie, thanks for coming on. >>Um, definitely hoping to be back in person again soon, but john great to see you and great to be back on the >>cube. You know, I have to say one of the things that really surprised me is the resilience of the community around what's been happening with the virtual in the covid. Actually, a lot of people have been, um, you know, disrupted by this, but you know, the consensus is that developers have used to been working remotely and virtually in a home and so not too much disruption, but a hell of a lot of productivity. You're seeing a lot more cloud native, um, projects, you're seeing a lot more mainstreaming and the enterprise, you're starting to see cloud growth, just a really kind of nice growth. And we've been saying for years, rising tide floats, all boats, Cheryl, but this year you're starting to see real mainstream adoption with cloud native and this has really been part of the work of the community you guys have done. So what's your take on this? Because we're going to be coming out of this Covid pretty soon. There's a post covid light at the end of the tunnel. What's your view? >>Yeah, definitely, fingers crossed on that. I mean, I would love Katie to give her view on this. In fact, because she came from Conde Nast and American Express, both huge companies that were adopting have adopted cloud Native successfully. And then in the middle of the pandemic, in the middle of Covid, she joined CN CF. So Katie really has a view from the trenches and Katie would love to hear your thoughts. >>Yeah, absolutely. Uh, definitely cloud native adoption when it comes to the tooling has been more permanent in the enterprises. And that has been confirmed of my role at American Express. That is the role I moved from towards C N C F. But the more surprising thing is that we see big companies, we see banks and financial organization that are looking to adopt open source. But more importantly, they're looking for ways to either contribute or actually to direct it more into these areas. So from that perspective, I've been pretty much at the nucleus of enterprise of the adoption of cloud Native is definitely moving, it's slow paced, but it's definitely forward moving as well. Um and now I think while I'm in the role with C N C F as an ecosystem advocate and leading the end user community, there has been definitely uh the community is growing um always intrigued to find out more about the cloud Native usage is one of the things that I find quite intriguing is the fact that not one cloud native usage, like usage of covering just one platform, which is going to be called, the face is going to be the same. So it's always intriguing to find new use cases, find those extremist cases as well, that it really pushes the community forward. >>I want to do is unpack. The end user aspect of this has been a hallmark of the CNC F for years, always been a staple of the organization. But this year, more than ever it's been, seems to be prominent as people are integrating in what about the growth? I mean from last year this year and the use and user ecosystem, how have you guys seen the growth? Is there any highlights because have any stats and or observations around how the ecosystem is growing around the end user piece? >>Sure, absolutely. I mean, I can talk directly about C N C F and the C N C F. End user community, much like everything else, you know, covid kind of slowed things down, so we're kind of not entirely surprised by that, But we're still going over 2020 and in fact just in the last few months have brought in some really, really big names like Peloton, Airbnb, Citibank, um, just some incredible organizations who are, who have really adopted card native, who have seen the success and the benefits of it. And now we're looking to give back to the community, as Katie said, get involved with open source and be more than just a passive consumer of the technologies, but actually become leaders in their own right, >>Katie talk about the dynamic of developers that end user organizations. I mean, you have been there, you're now you've been on both sides of the table if you will not to the sides of the table, it's more like a round table if you will, but community driven. But traditional, uh, end user organizations, not the early adopters, not the hyper scale is, but the ones now are really embedding hybrid, um, are changing how I t to how modern applications being built. That's a big theme in these mainstream organizations. What's the dynamic going on? What's your view? >>I think for any organization, the kind of the core, what moves the organization towards cloud Native is um pretty much being ahead of your competitors. And now we have this mass of different organization of the cloud native and that's why we see more kind of ice towards this area. So um definitely in this perspective when it comes to the technology aspect, companies are looking to deploy complex application in an easier manner, especially when it comes to pushing them to production system securely faster. Um and continuously as well. They're looking to have this competitive edge when it comes to how can they quickly respond to customer feedback? And as well they're looking for this um hybrid element that has been, has been talked about. Again, we're talking about enterprise is not just about public cloud, it's about how can we run the application security and getting both an element of data centers or private cloud as well. And now we see a lot of projects which are balancing around that age but more importantly there is adoption and where there's adoption, there is a feedback loop and that's how which represents the organic growth. >>That's awesome. Cheryl like you to define what you mean when you say end user driven open source, what does that mean? >>Mm This is a really interesting dynamic that I've seen over the last couple of years. So what we see is that more and more of the open source project, our end users who who are solving their own problems and creating their own projects and donating these back to the community. An early example of this was Envoy and lift and Yeager from Uber but Spotify also recently donated backstage, which is a developer portal which has really taken off. We've also got examples from Intuit Donating Argo. Um I'm sure there are some others that I've just forgotten. But the really interesting thing I see about this is that class classically right. Maybe a few years ago, if you were an end user organization, you get involved through a vendor, you'd go to a red hat or something and say, hey, you fix this on my behalf because you know that's what I'm paying you to do. Whereas what I see now is and user saying we want to keep this expertise in house and we want to be owners of our own kind of direction and our own fate when it comes to these open source projects. And that's been a big driver for this trend of open source and user driven, open source. >>It's really the open model is just such a great thing. And I think one of the interesting thing is that fits in with a lot of people who want to work from mission driven companies, but here there's actually a business benefit as you pointed out as in terms of the dynamic of bringing stuff to the community. This is interesting. I'm sure that the ability to do more collaboration, um, either hiring or contributing kind of increases when you have this end user dynamic because that's a pretty big decision to donate and bring something into the open source. What's the playbook though? If I'm sitting in an end user organization like american express Katie or a big company, say, hey, you know, we really developed this really killer use cases niche to us, but we want to bring it to the community. What do they do? Is there like a, like a manager? Do they knock on someone's door? Zara repo is, I mean, how does someone, I mean, how does an end user get this done? >>Mm. Um, I think one of the best resources out there is called the to do group, which is a organization underneath the Linux foundation. So it's kind of a sister group to C N C F, which is about open source program offices. And how do you formalize such an open source program? Because it's pretty easy to say, oh well just put something on get hub. But that's not the end of the story, right? Um, if you want to actually build a community, if you want other people to contribute, then you do actually have to do more than just drop it and get up and walk away. So I would say that if you are an end user company and you have created something which scratches your own itch and you think other people could benefit from it then definitely come. And like you could email me, you could email Chris and chick who is the ceo of C N C F and just get in touch and sort of ask around about what are the things that you could do in terms of what you have to think about the licensing, How do you develop a community governance program, um, trademark issues, all of these things. >>It's interesting how open source is growing so much now, chris has got so much action going on. New verticals are opening up, you know, so, so much action Cheryl you had posted on the internet predictions for cloud native, which I found interesting because there's so much action going on, you have to break things out into pillars, tech devops and ecosystem, each one kind of with a slew event of key trends. So take us through the mindset, why break it out like that? You got tech devops and ecosystem tradition that was all kind of bundled in one. Why? Why the pillars? And is it because there's so much action, what's, what's the basis behind the prediction? >>Um so originally this was just a giant list of things I had seen from talking to people and reading around and seeing what people are talking about on social media. Um And when, once I invested at these 10, I thought about what, what does this actually mean for the people who are going to look at this list and what should they care about? So I see tech trends as things related to tools, frameworks. Um, perhaps architects I see develops as people who are more as a combination of process, things that a combination of process and people and culture best practices and then ecosystem was kind of anything else broader than that. Things that happened across organizations. So you can definitely go to my twitter, you can go to at boy Chevelle, O I C H E R Y L and take a look at this and This is my list of 10. I would love to hear from you whether you agree with it, whether you think there are other things that I've missed or what would your >>table. I love. I love the top. Well, first of all I think this is very relevant. The one that I would ask you on is more rust and cloud native. That's the number one item. Um, I think cross cloud is definitely totally happening, I think people are really starting to think about that and so I'd love to get your comments on that. But I think the thing that jumped out at me was the devops piece because this is a trend that I've been seeing a lot more certainly even in academic institutions, for folks in school, right? Um going to college for computer science and engineering. This idea of, sorry, large scale, cloud is not so much an IT practice, it's much more of a cloud native mindset. So I think this idea of of ops so much more about scale. I use SRE only because I can't think of a better word around it and certainly the edge pieces with kubernetes, I think this is the, I think the biggest story to me that's where all the action seems to be when I talk to people around what they're working on in terms of training new people on boarding and what not Katie, you're shaking your head, you're like Yeah, what's your thoughts? Yeah, >>I have definitely been uh through all of these stages from having a team where the develops, I think it's more of a culture of like a pattern to adopt within an organization more than anything. So I've been pre develops within develops and actually during the evolution of it where we actually added an s every team as well. Um I think having these cultural changes with an organization, they are necessary, especially they want to iterate iterate quicker and actually deliver value to the customers with minimal agency because what it actually does there is the collaboration between teams which were initially segregated. And that's why I think there is a paradigm nowadays which is called deficit ops, which actually moves security more to its left. This has been very popular, especially in the, in the latest a couple of months. Lots of talks around it and even there is like a security co located event of Yukon just going to focus on that mainly. Um, but as well within the Devil's area, um, one of the models that has been quite permanent has been get ups as well, which pretty much uses the power of gIT repositories to describe the state of the applications, how it actually should be within the production system and within the cloud native ecosystem. There are two main tools that pretty much leave this area and there's going to be Argo City which has been donated by, into it, which is our end user And we have flux as well, which has been donated by we've works and both of these projects currently are within the incubation stage, which pretty much by default um showcases there is a lot of adoption from the organizations um more than 100 of for for some of them. So there is a wider adoption um, and everything I would like to mention is the get ups working group which has emerged I think between que con europe and north America last year and that again is more to define a manifest of how exactly get expert and should be adopted within organizations. So there is a lot of, I would say initiatives and this is further out they confirmed with the tooling that we have within the ecosystem. >>That's really awesome insight. I want to just, if you don't mind follow up on that, why is getups so important right now, Is it because the emphasis of security is that the emphasis of more scale, Is it just because it's pretty much kid was okay just because storing it over there, Is it because there's so much more inspections are going on around it? I mean code reviews have been going on for a long time. What's what's the big deal? Why is it so hot right now? In your opinion? >>I think there is definitely a couple of aspects that are quite important. You mentioned security, that's definitely one of them with the get ups battery. And there is a pool model rather than a push model. So you have the actual tool, for example, our great city of flux watching for repository and if any changes are identified is going to pull those changes automatically. So the first thing that we actually can see from this model is that we always will have a delta between what's within our depositors and the production system. Usually if you have a pool model, you can pull it uh can push the changes towards death staging environment but not always the production because you have the change window sometimes with the get ups model, you'll always be aware of what's the Dell. Can you have quite a nice way to visualize that especially for your city, which has the UI as well as well with the get ups pattern, there is less necessity to share the credentials with the actual pipeline tool. All of because Argo flux there are natively build around communities, all the secrets are going to be residing within the cluster. There is no need to share any extra credentials or an extra permissions with external tools as well. There are scale, there is again with kids who have historical data points which allows us to easily revert um to stable points of the applications in the past. So multiple, multiple benefits I would say, but definitely secured. I think it's one of the main one and it has been talked about quite a lot as well. >>A lot of these end user stories revolve around these dynamics and the ones you guys are promoting and from your members as well as in the community at large is I hate to use the word day two operations, but that really is the issue like okay, we're up and running. I want more automation. This is again tops kind of vibe here where it's like okay we gotta go troubleshoot all this, but it should be working as more stuff comes in. This becomes more and more the dynamic is that is that because of just more edges, more things, more devices, what's what's the what's the push behind all these stories around this automation and day to operation things? What do you guys think? >>I think, I think the expectations are getting higher and higher to be honest, a few years ago it was enough to use containers and start using the barest minimum, you know, to orchestrate those containers. But now what we see is that, you know, it's easy to choose the technology, it's easy to install it and even configure it. But as you said, john those data operations are really, really hard. For example, one of the ones that we've seen up and coming and we care about from CNCF is kubernetes on the edge. And we see this as enabling telco use cases and 5G and IOT and really, really broad, difficult use cases that just a few years ago would have been nice on impossible, Katie, your zone, Katie Katie, you also talk about edge. Right? >>Absolutely. I think I I really like to watch some of the talks that keep going, especially given by the big organizations that have to manage thousands or tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of customers. And they have to deliver a cluster to these to these teams. Now, from their point of view, they pretty much have to manage clusters at scale. There is definitely the edge out there and they really kind of pushing the technology towards how can we get closer to the physical devices within the customers? Kind of uh, let's say bubble or area in surface. So age has been definitely something which has been moving a lot when it comes to the cloud native ecosystem. We've had a lot of projects moving to towards the incubation stage, carefree as has been there, um, for for a while and again, has a lot of adoption is known for its stability. But another thing that I would like to mention is that now currently we have a lot of projects that are age focus but within some box, so there is again, a lot of potential if there's gonna be a higher demand for this, I would expect this tools move from sandbox to incubation and even graduation. So that's definitely something which, uh, it's moving and there is dynamism around it. >>Well, Cheryl kid, you guys are awesome, love the work you're doing. I gotta ask the final question since you brought it up about the expectations. Cheryl, if you guys could both end the segment with the comment around expectations as the industry and companies and developers and participants continue to grow. What, what's changed with C N C F koo Kahne cloud, native khan as the expectation has been growing and the stakes are higher too, frankly, I mean you've got security, you mentioned these things edge get up, so you start to see the maturation of this ecosystem, what's new and what's expected of you guys, What do you see and how are you guys organizing? >>I think we can definitely say the ecosystem has matured a lot compared to a few years ago. Same with CNTF, same with Cuba con, I think the very first cubic on I went to was Berlin, which was about 1800 people. Um, the kind of mind boggling to see how much, how much it's grown since then. I mean one of the things that we try and do is to expand the number of people who can reach the community. So for example, we launched kubernetes community days and we launched, that means community organized events in africa, for example, for people who couldn't come to large events in north America or europe, um we also launching things to help students. I actually love talking to students because quite often now you talk to them and they say, oh, I've never run software in anything other than a container. You're like, yeah, well this was a new thing, this is brand new a few years ago and now you can be 18 and have never tried anything else. So it's pretty amazing. But yeah, there's definitely, there's always space to go to the community. >>Yeah, once you go cloud native, it's like, you know, like you've never load Lennox on them server before. I mean, what, what's going on? Get your thoughts as expectations go higher And certainly there's more in migration, not only for young folks because they're jumping into this was that engineering meets computer science is now cross discipline. You're seeing scale, you mentioned scaling up those are huge factors, you've got younger, you got cross training, you got cybersecurity and you've got Fin tech ops that's chris is working on so much is happening. What, what, what you guys keep up with your, how you gonna raise the ball? >>Absolutely. I think there's definitely technology moving forward, but I think nowadays there is a more need for actual end user stories while at the beginning of cube cons there is a lot of focus on the technical aspects. How can you fix this particular problem of deploying between two clusters are deploying at scale. There is like a lot of technical aspects nowadays they're looking for the stories because as I mentioned before, not one platform is gonna be the same when it comes to cloud native and I think there's still, the community is still trying to look for some patterns or some standards and we actually can see like especially when it comes to the open standards, we can see this moving within um the observe abilities like that application delivery will have for example cross plane and Que Bella we have open metrics and open tracing as well, which focuses on observe ability and all of the interfaces that we had around um, Cuban directory service men and so forth. All of these pretty much try to bring a benchmark, making it easier to integrate these special use cases um when it comes to actual extreme technology kind of solutions that you need to provide and um, I was mentioning the end user stories that are there more in demand nowadays mainly because these are very, very necessary from the community like for example the six or the project maintainers, they require feedback to actually move forward. And as part of that, I would like to mention that we've recently soft launched the injuries lounge, which really focuses on this particular aspect of end user stories. We try to pretty much question our end users and really understand what really moved them to adopt, coordinative, what keeps them on this path and what like future challenges they would like to um to tackle or are they facing the moment I would like to solve in the future. So we're trying to create the speed back home between the inducers and the projects out there. So I think this is something which needs to be a bit more closely together these two spheres, which currently are segregated, but we're trying to just solve that. >>Also you guys do great work, great job. Cheryl wrap us up real, take a minute to put a plug in for the C. N. C. F. In the ecosystem. What's the fashion this year? What's hot? What's the trend? What are you guys doing? Share some quick update on what's going on the ecosystem from your perspective? >>Yeah, I mean the ecosystem, even though I just said that we're maturing, you know, the growth has not stopped now, what we're seeing is these as Casey was saying, you know, more specific use cases, even bigger, even more demanding environments, even more kind of crazy use cases. I mean I love the story from the U. S. Department of Defense about putting kubernetes on their fighter jets and putting ston fighter jets, you know, it's just absurd to think about it, but I would say definitely come and be part of the community, share your stories, share what you know, help other people um if you are end user of these technologies then go to see NCF dot io slash and user and just come and be part of our community, you know, meet your peers and hear what everybody else is doing >>well. Having kubernetes and stu on jets, that's the Air Force, I would call that technical edge Katie to you know, bring, bring back the edge carol kitty, thank you so much for sharing the inside ecosystem is robust. Rising tide is floating all the boats as we always say here in the cube, it's been great to watch and continue to watch the rise. I think it's just the beginning, we're starting to see post pandemic visibility cloud native, more standards, more visibility into the economics and value and great to see the ecosystem rising up with the end users as well. So congratulations and thanks for coming up. >>Thank you so much, john it's a pleasure, appreciate >>it. Thank you for having us, john >>Great to have you on. I'm john for with the cube here for Coop Con Cloud, Native Con 21 virtual soon we'll be back in real life. Thanks for watching. Mhm.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, It's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to IBM Think 2021. This is theCUBE's ongoing coverage where we go out to the events, in this case virtually to extract the signal from the noise. Now we're going to talk about one of the deepest customer relationships in the tech business with Piet Bill who is the IBM managing director for American Express. Piet, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having me, Dave. >> So as I said, this is one of the deepest vendor-client relationships. I mean, it's more than that. It's just, you're not a vendor. You're a partner, a very deep relationship many many decades, plus executives know each other. There's been some senior executives from American Express, as I recall came over to IBM of course, famously Lou Gerstner. But, talk about the, just give us the overview of the evolution of that partnership. >> Yeah well, as you rightly mentioned, the relationship is long and deep. It's over a hundred years. I mean the original deal was probably around the combine clocks and scales and all that kind of stuff, and it evolved over time. But what it does indeed create is a long, deep, lasting relationship as a fundament for doing business. And yeah, that business has gone through a lot of cycles over the last decade. So as you say, from buying stuff but I would say over time evolving really into a partnership around services, mutual business back and forth, exchanging executives on board level. American Express executives on the board of IBM and vice versa. So yeah, it's a very, very deep long relationship of two iconic companies in Manhattan. >> Yeah, well so it's got to be more than just buying stuff. Obviously, there's a lot of business being transacted, but you've got an intimate, I mean your title has American Express in it. So you've got to intimately understand your client's business. I mean, I guess that's always the case but we're taking it to another level here, aren't we? >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, so what you really are often what we do as IBM is really get into the shoes basically of American Express trying to support their business to their clients. So American Express is very focused on small and medium businesses. So, we tap into how can we help the small and medium business as part of the American Express customer set. And how can we help evolve their business models, their technology, their services, to serve their clients better because in the old days, indeed, to your point, it was like, oh we wanted to buy the right stuff. And then we use that to do our thing but that the technology today, the area in which we operate is completely different. If you don't understand the client of American Express, we cannot serve American Express as a company. So it is indeed very important and it is therefore deeper and it requires way more focus on the clients of American Express than in the old days, I would say. >> Well, the pandemic must've been a challenging environment. Of course, I mean, you know people aren't out shopping as much, although people are waiting, they can't wait to get back out. They say, it's going to be like Woodstock here with their American Express cards. But so, maybe talk a little bit about how you worked together during the pandemic. >> Yeah, so well, first of all, like anybody we all work from home, but American Express really, I would say almost re-engaged on what is core in their strategy, is the support to small and medium business. So, American Express started this Stand For Small Initiative led by Steve Squeri himself, about how can we enable the small enterprises in doing business in the COVID period? What do they need? I mean, yeah, they need money, but they also need help. Like how to deal with your financials with your people. Can we use the spare time to do more education? And so IBM was one of the partners that jumped on board immediately to say, okay let us help in that platform, support you when necessary with the platform, but definitely help you in that platform to reach out to the small and medium enterprises, specifically in the New York area And like many other partners, we all got on board. And I think it got another focus again, I mean small and medium business has always been a focus but it's different when so many companies are struggling right now. And so we got on board and I think that is really a very clear partnership expression, I would say. >> How do you measure success with American Express? What are some of the key things that you guys look at? How have you evolved that over time? >> Well, ultimately I would say it's client satisfaction in the end. It sounds like an open door, but it really is. I mean, the real measurement, I mean there's always money measurements back and forth. And you can argue that of course you need to do solid business. There's no discussion there but I would say it's where do we align on the strategic intent from both companies? And let me elaborate a second on that one. If American Express is really transforming its business to become way more, I would say cloud enabled, hybrid technologies enabled. We provide a lot of that material. So we are really working together on trying to leverage each other in building that hybrid platform that will enable that future. And why do you need that? Well, because American Express needs to be dynamic and getting fintechs on board, getting exchanges with new companies are going way faster. It's not the traditional old style anymore where you could go for transformations for years. No, it needs to be on the spot. So we felt our strategies are really well aligned. And I would say the real measurement of success is how can we now make that to the benefit of American Express and on the back of that, we will do good business. So client satisfaction should be the primary one, strategic alignment important, and then of course doing the sound business on the back of that for both sides >> Financial services firms have always been pretty savvy when it comes to applying technology to business. Some of the most demanding customers and more advanced. And so, American Express was likely already on a digital transformation prior to the COVID hitting. At the same time, if he talks about it being accelerated. But, I think what people miss is that it wasn't, well they don't miss it, but to think about it and this way it wasn't planned, it was like forced. And, so you just, you had no choice. You couldn't think about it. You just had to do an act. And so on the one hand, okay, that's good. It was a forcing function. It also served as a Petri dish, but on the other hand, I'm sure a lot of mistakes were made. Now, as we exit the pandemic, we step back and say, okay, wow, we learned a lot. Now we can make a more planful approach and really go deeper and lean in over the next several years. What are your thoughts on that? And how does it relate to what you guys are doing with American Express? >> I think that's a very good point, I agree. It's what you see is that this indeed has forced us in a lot of things. I think the good news is American Express was already enabled for a lot of that new technology. They have invested. They have a lot of very skilled, good people and a very clear strategy and what they were after. This indeed put more pressure on it. I think what you will see happening in the foreseeable future after we get out of all of this, let's say the the urgency to complete the transformation on the cloud and data will become even more crucial. And so the priority will become higher and it will not be just higher because of the techies wanting it to do it, but because the business needs it. So they need it from a risk perspective, they need it from an agility perspective, go to market of new products. They need to really move fast. It's a fast moving market. You get a lot of it. I mean, the competition is there. So to enable that the move to get new technologies in faster is becoming pivotal and crucial. And I think for now, it's more of an almost like a survival statement. We need to get through this bubble of COVID. As soon as that's done, we need to think way more on the structural elements of data and how we enable a hybrid strategy going forward. >> So in the spirit of, you know you need to understand your customer. In this case, American Express and understand their business. And American Express is, I'll make you laugh. Anytime I call American Express, if I have to work out a problem or whatever, and I got to talk to customer service, they always thank me for my loyalty. Because I've been a customer for a long time. Back when probably when Ronald Reagan was president it was my first Amex card. And so they're like, "Oh, thank you, Mr. Vellante. We really appreciate your loyalty." So loyalty is a big thing for American Express with its customers. So what about IBM and American Express? How are you breeding? You know, what's that loyalty factor look like for you guys? >> Yeah, I think it's a very important element. I mean, to your point, I have the same experience. It's a crucial element. The whole, I mean, American express is famous for its loyalty schemes for loyalty as a company. I think loyalty, like the business has evolved. I think the loyalty evolves in the same style. And I would say in the old days, I would say the argument was you need to have the best product. You know, you need to be, and then we'll buy the product. In the current environment, I would argue it's way more about skills. Do we have the right people? Do we have the right technology, strategy kind of stuff? I would say for the future, it's way more about do we have the right trust, commitment, and loyalty of the people that work with us going forward to serve the client needs? And I think that evolution, it's almost like you have an Industrial Revolution. There was an Information Revolution. I think there's more of a Loyalty Revolution coming up where the real differentiating factors is because we can study this and argue this for ages but a lot of parties will deliver a lot of good technology to the market. They will deliver a lot of good people. They will have good price points. So what's the real differentiating factor? It's like, do we really trust these people? And then I think relationship loyalty will really come in play and it will not become in play just between an IBM and an American Express. But I would argue it will come in play in the whole business cycle of American Express to their clients. I mean, if the credit card swipe of your American Express card in a shop fails, it needs to be my problem. If I deliver the service to American Express, it cannot be that, oh, American Express has a problem. And you know what, it's eight o'clock in the evening. Yeah, we have reduced services. No, we never had that. We will never have that. But we need to get even deeper in understanding what the effects are of these business issues. >> Yeah. you're right. The nature of loyalty, I mean, certainly the products have changed. I remember, you used to travel overseas with American Express Travelers Checks. That was a staple of every overseas trip that I ever took. No matter where I was going, whether it was the Asia Pacific or Europe, I had to have that packet. And there were times when one time in particular I had a problem, boom, they were right there. It solved that problem. Now of course, many young people in the audience don't even know what America's Express Travelers Check is. They probably don't know what cash is. Carrying around crypto in their wallet. But, that's an example and that's about trust. I trust that product. I trust that company behind the product. And again, that has to extend to your relationship, doesn't it? >> Absolutely, so the technology that American Express uses, whether they do it themselves, or whether it's provided by partners like IBM. It needs to be seamless because, let's face it. Dave, you will not be interested to know who provides you the security on your credit card. If you have an American Express card, you expect it expect American Express to deliver you the security that you need. And whether American Express delivers that or IBM, you couldn't care less and you shouldn't care less. But what it does require is that, in the old school I would say it was more like, okay, we'll give some services and some products to American Express and guys, good luck! Now, we need to think ahead. And I think that's where the power of IBM comes in whether we really are tuned by industry to the industry issues like compliance, security, stability, services to the end clients, to you. So you need to feel if I cannot explain what I do to American Express in your terms as an end-user of an Amex credit card, you can argue what's the real value at? And definitely if there's like three, four, or five parties playing exactly the same game, it needs to be differentiating. And I think a company like IBM we have differentiating value, but we need to make it very clear. And that's, I think where you see companies like American Express really work together and that's where loyalty and trust really comes into play. >> Last question and we've got to go is, you have American Express in your title. Are other companies jealous? (laughs) We want that too. >> They should. They should be. I must say, we deal with a ton of financial institutions as you know around the globe, including the other credit cards. But yeah, I think when these deep relationships come in place and two, they're so old. So deep, so entrenched, and it really started. There's different dimensions to it. And it's not always that hard-coded anymore. It's the subtlety of really relying on each other. I mean, when something happens in the middle of the night with American Express, all of IBM is on board as of the second. And it's not driven by contracts or by anything. It's by people that have an American Express logo on the forehead and worked for an IBM. >> Yeah, right. That's awesome. Piet, Piet Bill's great story. Thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. It was great to have you. >> Thanks for having me. >> All right. And keep it right there. This is Dave Vellante, ongoing coverage of Think 2021. You're watching theCUBE.

>>from >>around >>The globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of IBM think 2021 brought to you >>by IBM. Welcome back to IBM Think 2021. This is the cubes ongoing coverage where we go out to the events in this case virtually to extract the signal from the noise. Now we're gonna talk about one of the deepest customer relationships in the tech business with Pete Bill, who is the IBM managing director for American Express. Pete, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks for having me Dave. >>So as I said, this is one of the deepest vendor client relationships. I mean, it's more than that because you're not a vendor, your partner, very deep relationship, many, many, you know, decades plus uh, executives know each other. There's been a some senior executives from American Express as I recall, came over to IBM of course, famously Lou Gerstner um, but but talk about the, just give us the overview of the evolution of that partnership. >>Yeah, well, as you rightfully mentioned, uh the relationship is long and deep, its over 100 years. I mean the original deal was probably around the club buying clocks and uh scales and all that kind of stuff and it evolved over time. But what it does indeed create is a long deep lasting relationship as a fundament for doing business and uh yeah that business has gone through a lot of cycles over the last decades, as you say, uh from from buying stuff. But I would say over time evolving really into a partnership around services, mutual business back and forth, exchanging executives on board level american Express executives on the board of IBM and vice versa. So yeah, it's a very very deep long relationship of two iconic companies in in Manhattan. >>Yeah, so it's got to be more than just buying stuff. Obviously there's a lot of business being transacted but you've got to intimate your title has american Express in it. So you've got to intimately understand your client's business. I mean that's I guess that's always the case, but we're taking it to another level here, >>aren't we? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so what you really are after and what we do is IBM is really get into the shoes basically of american Express trying to support their business to their clients. So american Express is very focused on small and medium business. So we tip into how can we help the small and medium businesses part of the american Express custom set and how can we help evolve their business models, that technology their services to serve their clients better because in the old days indeed. To your point it was like, oh we wanted to buy the right stuff and then we use that to do our thing. But that the technology today, the area in which we operate is completely different. If you don't understand the the client of american Express, we cannot serve american express as a company. So it is indeed very important and it is therefore deeper and it requires way more focused on the clients of american express than in the old days I would say. >>Well the pandemic must have been a challenging uh environment. Of course. I mean you know people aren't out shopping as much although you know people are waiting, they can't wait to get back out. They say it's gonna be like Woodstock with the american express cards. But so so maybe talk a little bit about how how you work together during the pandemic. >>Yeah. So well first of all like anybody, we're all work from home. But american express really uh I would say almost reengaged on what is core and the threat that used to support to small and medium business. So american Express started this stand for small initiative led by steve Square himself about how can we enable the small enterprises uh in doing business in the covid period? What do they need? I mean, yeah, they need money, but they also need help like how to deal with your financials with your people. Can we use the spare time to do more education? And so IBM was one of the partners that jumped on board immediately to say, okay, let us help in that platform support you were necessary with the platform but definitely help you in that platform to reach out to the small and medium enterprises uh specifically in the new york area. And like many other partners, we all got on board and I think it got another focus. Again, I mean small and medium business has always been a focus, but it's different when so many companies are struggling right now. And so we get a got on board. And I think that that is really a very clear partnership expression. I would say, >>how do you measure success with with american Express? What are some of the key things that you guys look at? How, how have you evolved that over time? >>Well, ultimately, I would say it's client satisfaction in the end, it sounds like an open door, but it really is. I mean the real the real measurement, I mean there's always money measurements back and forth. You can argue that that is of course you need to do solid business. There's no discussion there, but I would say it's where do we align on the strategic intent from both companies and let me elaborate a second on that one. If american Express is really transforming its business to become way more, I would say uh cloud enabled hybrid technologies enabled. Uh we provide a lot of that material. Uh so we are really working together on trying to leverage each other in building that hybrid platform that will enable that future. And why do you need that? Well, because american Express needs to be dynamic and getting fit, excellent board, getting exchanges with with with with new companies going way faster. It's not a traditional old style anymore where you could go for transformations for years now it needs to be on the spot. Um so we show our strategies are really well aligned and I would say the real measurement of success is how can we now make that to the benefit of american Express? And on the back of that we will do good business. So uh client satisfaction should be the primary one. Strategic alignment important. And then of course doing the sound business on the back of that for both sides, >>financial services firms have always been pretty savvy when it comes to applying technology to business some of the most demanding customers and more advanced. Uh So you know the american express is likely already on a digital transformation prior to the covid hitting at the same time. It talks about it being accelerated. But I think what people miss is that it wasn't well they don't miss it but you know to think about it in this way, it wasn't planned, it was like forced. And so you just you have no choice, you couldn't think about it, you just have to do an act. And so on the one hand, okay, that's good. It was a forcing function. It also served as a Petri just but on the other hand, I'm sure a lot of mistakes were made now as we exit the pandemic step back and say okay wow, we learned a lot now. We can make a more planned full approach and really go deeper and lean in over the next several years. What are your thoughts on that and how does it relate to what you guys are doing with american Express? >>I think that's a very good point. I agree. It's what you see is that uh this indeed has forced us in a lot of things. I mean I think the good news is american Express was already enabled for a lot of that new technology. They have invested, they have a lot of very skilled good people uh a very clear strategy and what they were after this and they put more pressure on it. I think what you will see happening in the foreseeable future after we get out of all of this is that the, let's say the urgency to complete the transformation on cloud and data will become even more crucial. And so the priority will become higher and it will not be just higher because of the Turkish wanting it to do it, but because the business needs it. So uh needed from a risk perspective, they needed, from an agility perspective, go to market of new products. Uh they need to really move fast. It's a fast moving market, you get a lot of the media competition is there? Uh so to enable that the move to get new technologies and faster is becoming pivotal and crucial. And I think for now it's more of almost like a survival statement. We need to get through this bubble of Covid as soon as that's done, we need to think way more on the structural elements of debt and how we enable a hybrid strategy going forward. >>So in the spirit of you need to understand your customer in this case american Express and understand their business. An american express is uh make you laugh anytime I call american Express, you know, if I have to work out a problem or whatever. Uh and I gotta talk to some customer service. They always thank me for my loyalty because I have been a customer for a long time. You know, back when probably when Ronald Reagan was president, it was my first Amex card. And so they're like, oh thank you, Mr Volonte. We we really appreciate your loyalty. So loyalty is a big thing for american Express with its customers. So what about IBM and American Express? How are you breeding, you know, what's that loyalty factor look like for you guys? >>Yeah, I think it's a very important element. I mean to your point, I have the same experience, It's it's a it's a crucial element. Uh the whole, I mean american Express is famous for its loyalty schemes for loyalty as a company. I think loyalty like the business has evolved, I think the loyalty evolves in the same style in I would say in the in the in the old days, I would say the argument was you need to have the best product, you know, you you need to be and then we'll buy the product in the current environment. I would argue that it's way more about skills, Do we have the right people? Do we have the right technology strategy kind of stuff? I would say for the future, it's way more about do we have the right trust, commitment and loyalty of the people that work with us going forward to serve the client needs? And I think that evolution, it's almost like you have an industrial revolution, there was an information resolution. I think there's more of a loyalty revolution coming up where the real differentiating factors is because we can study this and argue this for ages. But a lot of parties will deliver a lot of good technology to the market, they will deliver a lot of good people, they will have good price points. So what's the real differentiating factor? It's like, do we really trust these people? And then I think relationship loyalty will really come and play and it will not become and play just between an IBM and an american express, but I would argue it will come and play in the whole business cycle of american express to their clients. I mean if the credit card swipe of your american express card in a shop fails, It needs to be my problem. If I deliver the service to American express it cannot be that Oh American express has a problem and you know what, it's 8:00 in the evening uh yeah we have reduced services. No we never had that, we will never have that but we need to get even deeper in understanding what the effects are of these business issues. >>Yeah I mean you're right the nature of loyalty, the preservative products have changed. I mean I remember you know I used to travel overseas with american Express traveler's checks that was a staple of every overseas trip that I ever took you no matter where I was going, whether it's asia pacific or or europe, I had to have that packet and I and I had you know, there were times when, when you know one time particularly had a problem film, they were right there to solve the problem. Of course, many young people in the audience don't even know what american express traveler's check is. They probably don't know what cash is carrying around crypto in their wallet. But but but that's an example and that's about trust, trust that product, I trust that company behind the product. Again, that has to extend to your relationship doesn't. >>Absolutely. So the technology that an american Express users, whether they do it themselves or whether it's provided by partners like IBM it needs to be seamless because let's face it, you would not be interested to know who provides you the security on your credit card. If you have an american Express card, you expect expect american Express to deliver your the security that you need and whether american Express delivers that or IBM you couldn't care less and you shouldn't care less. But what it does require is that in the old school I would say it was more like okay we'll give some services and some products to american Express and guys could look now, we need to think ahead and I think that's where the power of IBM comes in where that we really attuned by industry to the industry issues like compliance, security, stability services, um to the inclined to you. So you need to feel if I cannot explain what I do to american express in your terms as an infusion of an express credit card, you can argue what's the real value add. And definitely if there's like 345 parties playing exactly the same game, it needs to be differentiating and I think a company like IBM we have differentiating value but we need to make it very clear and that's I think where you see companies like american Express really work together and that's what loyalty and trust really comes in play. >>Last question when we got to go is you have american expression, your title are other companies jealous >>we >>want that >>to, they should, they should >>be. Uh >>but I I must say, I mean we deal with a ton of financial institutions as you know around the globe including the other credit cards. But yeah, I think where these deep relationship ships commonplace indeed too. I mean they're so old, so deep, so and entrenched and it really start there's different dimensions to it and it's not always that hard coded anymore, it's the subtlety of really relying on each other. I mean when something happens in the middle of the night with american express, all of IBM is on board as of the second and it's not driven by contracts or by anything. It's by people that have an American Express logo on the forehead and work for an IBM. >>Yeah. Right. It's awesome. Pete Pete bills. Great story. Thanks so much for coming to the cube. It's great to have you. >>Thanks for having me. >>All right and keep it right. There is day volonte ongoing coverage of think 2021. You're watching the Cube? Yeah.

from London England it's the cube covering Koopa inspire 19 emia taught to you by Koopa hey welcome to the cube Lisa Martin coming to you from London I'm at Koopa inspire 19 pleased to be joined by one of Koopas spent setters hit me here is alla Williams the managing director and chief procurement officer at Barclays al welcome to the cube Thank You Lisa thanks for having me so Barclays is a three hundred plus year old Bank three hundred and thirty five years I think I also was was headquartered in London I didn't know this until he did some research Barclays is the pioneer of the ATM yes and a credit card in the UK credit card why first credit card in the UK and the pioneer in inventor of the ATM correct yes so when we think of an organization that is three hundred and thirty five years old we think how agile is that organization how transformative can it be talk to me about what it's like at Barclays from a digital perspective before we get into some of the procurement stuff which or not but tight and culture like that's a great question right could you think about a three hundred thirty-five year old Bank how innovative could it can it be right how agile can it be and the market in the the sector we work in requires us to be very agile because banking is a disrupted sector especially on the retail and consumer side expectations around technology and mobile capabilities and digital transformation are the most significant they've ever been in this sector and so for Barclays it's it's absolutely key that we deliver on those capabilities both in terms of our front office for our consumers and our corporate clients as well as for our own employees within the bank how influential is the consumer side because as consumers we are so used to being able to get anything that we want we can buy products and services we can pay bills with a click or swipe on the on the business side it's harder for businesses to transform and innovate it's a lot of other risks and security issues how influential is Barclays Barclays is your retail your consumer business in terms of your b2b work and that's a great question because I think the the experiences that shape people's expectations come from their interactions in retail and consumer when it comes to b2b and traditionally business-to-business commerce and financial transactions haven't been nearly as sophisticated streamlined or frictionless you know as you would in a consumer model so the expectations are built on the consumer side in consumer to business type models and then the business and business models been playing catch-up for the last several years as a result talk to me about now the role of finance leaders I was reading surgery that Kupa did recently have 253 uk-based financial decision makers and a big number of them I think it was 96 percent said we don't have complete visibility of all of our spent there's a big opportunity there to work with a company like Cooper but talk to me about how the role of the chief procurement officer is changing you've been doing it for quite a while you're a veteran right some of the trends that you have seen that you've really jumped on and said this is the direction we need to be going in right so I've been the chief procurement officer of Barclays for two and half years and the CEO of a large global technology company for nine years before that so I think the the the role of the chief procurement officer has changed significantly over the course of the last say 10 years five years two years we're at a point now where the chief procurement officer is seen as a source of and the organization of procurement is seen as a source of innovation it's seen as a source of capacity creation for the the the organization for the company and it's also seen as sort of a steward of the portfolio of spins for that particular organization to ensure we're maximizing the utility and value of that spend and of that supply chain so the expectations for procurement have tripled quadrupled or more fold in the last you know four or five years some of the interesting things that we're hearing from Koopa and from their customers and partners today is beyond simply initiative to simply but beyond you know dramatically improving procurement and invoicing and dispensing and leveraging the platform as one source for visibility of all that spent but it's being transformative to completely other areas like I was hearing a story of a customer who redefined procurement and is actually positively impacting corporate sustainability yes Wow so talk to me a little bit about I know one of the things that you really thrive on is competition how are you leveraging that and maybe your old American football days to build and maybe foster a sense of collaborative competition within your team to transform procurement at Barclays yes so I think that whether it's in sport or whether it's in business I think the concept of teams is key and effective teams are built on trust they're built on empowerment they they're built on collaboration open communication limited asymmetry and information as it's passed and that's all about kind of driving agility for whether you're on this on the football field American footballer or other football or on or in a business environment of business context so you know it's really and as a CEO and for all of the leaders on my team it's also about being a player coach and knowing when you need to be a player when you need to sort of roll up sleeves contribute in a particular area or particular solving a particular problem but more importantly when you need to be coached and and help those players sort of and those team members in on the team sort of step up to the challenge and coach them to be more success see Bennet Berkeley's a couple years now talk to me about your use case the purpose has with Koopa what are you guys doing together and what are some of the transformations that both internally and externally you've been able to achieve yeah so the relationship with coop has been great again I joined to make a couple of years ago one of the sort of first pillars associated with our overall transformation journey of centralizing procurement from five different procurement or six different procurement organizations really to moving to strategic locations to building out a new organization structure and operating model for for procurement I won't go into all that but one of the key pillars was around technology and we didn't have a common procure-to-pay or source to pay capability that extended or threaded throughout the bank for managing and supply chain so early on when I joined Barclays partnered partnering with Koopa working both of our teams working very effectively together to deploy sort of country by country and region by region we're now in 11 countries with the Koopa source to pay platform we're going to point to six more by the end of this calendar year and over 95% of our spend is flowing through Koopa as a multinational banks so it's been a significant component of our overall transformation journey for for Barclays and part of that transformation journey the technology piece is important that all a lot of its cultural we talked about a history of a three hundred and thirty-five year old organization but also going from five different procurement organizations down to one using a central platform that's challenging to get folks on board right being comfortable with change is your spirit of competitiveness was that a facilitator of getting adoption so that you could get them well I think so I mean I think to get the most out of teams and the most out of any organization large or small you need to galvanize around a common set of goals and objectives the the adage we ought to be pulling on the rope together to achieve achieve the end result and I think in the case of the sort of our Koopa journey both in terms of its strategy and overall deployment it was something more or less our entire procurement organization was able able to galvanize around and in feel like they were a part of and it it created an identity for us within Barclays as a procurement organization as well and kind of put his front and center with our business units and our stakeholders in a way we had we'd never been before so in terms of procurement having a seat at the board table is that something now that you have the ability to do with Barclays and be much more of a strategic driver of business yeah and look at Barclays compared to some of my other experiences it's not an it's not an issue of not having a seat at the table we might have a seat at too many tables sometimes there's a lot of attention on procurement within Barclays to help it deliver on its strategic objectives so with that seat comes a lot of responsibility so I often will coach my teams to ensure that they understand kind of that that that component of it's not just about having a seat at the table it's about what we're going to contribute what are we going to do differently when we're at that table when we're helping shape the decisions for the organization and what are the accountabilities and responsibilities that will pick up as a result and deliver on those promises that's absolutely critical one of the things that was talked about this morning is to trust Rob Bernstein talked about it they also had a guest speaker Rachel Botsman who's a trusted expert it was such an interesting conversation you know we talked about any chuck event that the cube goes to you always talk about trust got to have trust in the data you gotta have trust in your suppliers but what they were talking about here was really being an enabler of trust but cooper really working to earn the trust of its customers tell me about how has earned your trust and also allowed you to have those better discussions at the board table so that you have marked trusted relationships with your executive and your peer team yeah I mean it all starts for Barclays at the very top of the house in front office because we're in the business of trust I mean Bank a bank is in the business of trust that's what we deliver and promise to our consumers and our corporate clients and I think you know within procurement we need to make sure we're sort of delivering on that same promise around around trust and building trust with our teams and with our suppliers in the case of Kupa frankly it was about asking them to ensure they appropriately set expectations with me with my team in terms of what we could or couldn't do with the capability right don't over promise and under deliver but actually be very prudent and practical about what we're gonna be able to get done and then deliver on those promises to the best of your ability but if something and I always do if something goes so not according to plan right it's be open communicative and direct with the issue and how we're going to address it that to me is how we build trust in any team and that's how we built trust with Kupa through our transformation over the last two years that's critical mister your point no deployment probably ever goes perfectly according to plan there are always things that happen whatever it is software hardware is that we're talking about and I think for companies to address that confront it help the customer through those challenges to me that's more valuable I'm saying everything went beautifully was flawless that's not reality right I completely agree and I think that's that's what separates good from great companies to write is their ability to build that trust whether it be within their supply chain with their clients with their employees and look it's it's a journey it's not something you're one and done and you can say okay we've got the trust you can lose it as easy as you can obtain it and you have to keep a focus on on those trusting relationships should think about that we've earned this trust but we have to focus on it so we don't lose it so we grow X having the focus on that because you're right whether it's a deployment of software it's not one and it's the same thing with any sort of trusted relationship right it's maintaining that it's ensuring that there's value right being delivered on both sides that's right tell me a little bit about your ability Barclays ability as a spend setter in this program that Cooper has to influence technology directions like they talk a lot about the community all the insights that they're able to deliver to the community because of the community as Burton is able to be a strategic her gir with Cooper rather than just a customer yeah Phil we are I mean Rob and his team Raja Ravi the entire crew are very receptive and they're very collaborative in hearing from an organization like Barclays now look I'll be the first to admit Barclays and in banking and banking specifically in the UK it's a different animal than many other companies and sectors that kupo would work in so what might work for other companies doesn't always work for us and kind of flipping that around there's certain things that we need from Koopa that that we've been able to partner with them to deliver over the course of the last two years and the relationship of coop has been fantastic they hear us they listen to us they help us understand what the solution can do what it can't do or won't be able to do in the near term and then how do we augment that in the right way so we don't create cottage industries of activity with Impa cure med when we could be leveraging the capability of ghupat to deliver on those services right so you mentioned a little bit about what's next for you guys in terms of rolling out the deployment a little bit more broadly last question for you is some of the news that came out today with the expansion of Koopa pay with American Express for example and just some of the other innovations that Koopa is making what are some of your thoughts what are some of the things that excite you about the direction are going in well yes so on the Koopa pay front I'm actually going to be on stage with Ravi tomorrow talking about Koopa pay because Mark Lee card is also a key component of that capability for the first virtual card that they integrated probably I believe it was yeah and and so so I think about payments is sort of the one not the only but one of the next frontiers from a source to pay or a procurement perspective and it's about how do we innovate in the payment space to get away from having that through the old traditional methods of adding suppliers you know detailed information to our vendor masters so that we can then eventually get an invoice and then reconcile payment remittance to invoices and sort of work through there's a lot of cost in that a lot of time and very little speed we want to move the dial on speed the value we want to move the dial on efficiencies and eventually get to a point where we can offer things like early payment discounts so by having control over our our payment process and that's where Koopa pay and the Barclaycard partnership with Koopa pay is really played a key role in making that happen so in q1 we made our commitment to deploy Koopa pay in q1 after we're through some of our deployments through the rest of this year on the base of the platform and look forward to continuing that journey next year on the payment side one last thing that just popped up I was doing some research and the b2c side is transformed much faster a lot of demand from the consumers we talked about that a moment ago do you see what the direction could the pay is going in with Barclays card for example as bringing in some of the consumer implements to start facilitating the acceleration that's needed there and I think yes I think that's exactly right because again when you think about the consumer side of payments or use it we're all using our phones we're using other digital means we're using wearables we're using different ways of buying and paying especially in retail and the first question we have to ask ourselves why can't those innovations be applied in a b2b space now kupah pay is I think a start of sort of that journey and certainly not the end you know destination but certainly I think it sets us off in the right direction yeah we as consumers are quite demanding yes I'll thank you for doing you on the cube ensuring the Barclays spends that our success rate good luck tomorrow in your keynote thank you for having me thank you pleasure I'm Lisa Martin you're watching the cube from cuca inspire London 19 thanks for watching

(fast intro music) >> Narrator: From London England, it's the Cube, covering Coupa Inspire 19 EMEA. Brought to you by Coupa. >> Hey, welcome to The Cube. Lisa Martin coming to you from Coupa Inspire 19 in London. Pleased to welcome one of Coupa's spend setters, joining me now is James Wagstaff, the chief procurement officer of Provident. James, welcome to the Cube. >> Hello, Lisa, nice to be here. >> So you had a very busy day. Thank you for taking some time to talk to me about Provident, what you doing with Coupa. But give our audience an overview of Provident and what you guys do and deliver to your customers. >> Very good, so Provident is a ftse 250 UK financial services business. It lends money to people without access to mainstream lending. Um, so it's real focus is to do that in a responsible, caring way. So if you can't borrow money from Barclays or HSBC, then Provident is a company that will help you get back to access to that mainstream market. >> Individuals as well as like small businesses? >> Consumers, around two million people in the UK currently use Provident, either the credit card or our home credit or our car leasing business. >> Okay, so how long have you been there? >> I have been at Provident now since April of 2018. >> Okay. >> So we're coming up now to, I think 19 months, and we put Coupa into the bank, which is the credit card business in April or April/May. >> Okay talk to me, though, about about your journey in business and finance. One of the things I read about you is that you were encouraged from an early age to really understand all aspects of a business from operations to finance to marketing to truly provide value through procurement. Talk to me about the history there that you have. >> So I'm a big fan of mentor programs. So I think everyone should have a mentor, and I lucked into mine, a chap called Terry, who, for reasons best known to him, took me under his wing. I was quite old when I came to procurement. I was around late 20s, maybe 30, and he had a vision about what great procurement looked like, and it was a holistic view. So procurement at its worst can be very tactical, very cost focused, and Terry was very focused on the bigger picture, about top-line growth not just bottom line, and right from day one, he seeded that in me, and it's been the strength of my career. So I owe Terry, Terry Western, if he's watching, I owe Terry, I owe Terry everything for that. And then I spent the last 10 years as an expat. So prior to Provident, I had three years as the group CPI for VimpelCom, which is the Russian equivalent of Vodafone or AT&T, who have businesses throughout Soviet Union, CIS, and Asia-Pac. And then seven years with Huawei, who are China's largest private company, telecoms company, and I was traveling around the world on the sales side facing procurement. So that was a very sobering enlightening experience to see procurement from the supplier side of the table, and I think it's made me a different procurement person as a result in terms of the way the I treat people and relate to people. So that holistic nature combined with, I think, a very business-centric view of what procurement should do. >> Interesting, though, that you that you said, I got a late start in procurement, but your start was founded upon someone giving you very solid advice of look beyond that because this is an element of the business that can, somebody that clearly was seeing how transformative, but also how it was important for procurement to partner and understand different requirements and needs within each division within an organization, so it sounds like you didn't really grow up in that traditional siloed approach of procurement. >> I did not, and I think that for me it makes my life interesting. So I think if you're in procurement and the danger is you become quite siloed, you're very narrow, and I did my MBA quite recently while I was traveling just to get that bigger perspective. It makes the job fun. I mean, I think you know you can negotiate contract after contract after contract, but it's the context of what that's doing for the business. And I think when I looked at Coupa as a system, it was with that in mind. So looking at Coupa, not from the perspective of what it did for procurement, but how it was for end-user customers. So as a service, was it really, really simple to use? Did it feel like an Amazon shopping experience? Because that drives adoption, and if you can get people wanting to use the system because it's easy, then the data's in the system, and then the data's in the system you can do something with it. So you're not, you're not fighting that adoption issue that you would be on a lot of systems. So if you go to some of the big ERP systems, they can be really hard for people to change and adopt, and Coupa's not been like that. It's been relatively easy. >> Interesting that you talk about it as it needs to be as simple as an Amazon marketplace. As consumers we're so used to that, right. I mean, people transact daily and get fulfillment of whatever product or service they're ordering from Amazon within... Sometimes it's within an hour or two. So we have this expectation and this demand. To your point, though, about wanting to have software that would be as easy for your teams to take up, that consumer effect. Talk to me about that as an influence. Because you know, kind of right away experience with other systems that might be bigger legacy systems that are challenging to get folks to use because they're not that intuitive. Did you know right away when you came into Provident that I need to have something that is more consumer-like. >> I knew that we needed a system and because as a regulated industry, we had to control our spend. So the fact that we needed a procurement system was a given, so then the choice is what do you buy? I think you don't really need a big ERP unless you really want to spend a lot of money on assistant inspirations and complexity. So your then into the mid-market space. And, um, there's a lot of vendors out there that have had an on-premise model, been around a long time, but you can feel that when you use it. So I didn't do a paper-based RFP. I think this is probably a terrible way of evaluating systems because you can get a function list on paper, but that doesn't really tell you what it's like to use. So the procurement process was around video online demos. So getting users into the room, three hours for an online demo walk through the system. So it's a very non-traditional procurement process to buy a procurement system. And I think at the end of that, I think it was a more valuable process for it. >> Was that something that was driven by you or was that something that was driven by Coupa? Is that how they deliver that type of experience? >> It was driven by me, but I think it was welcomed by Coupa. I think, I think from the sales guys I think they do an awful lot of paper-based RFP, and I think it's a challenge because it's very hard to differentiate on paper. Actually, a lot of the systems kind of do the same stuff, but it's not what they do. It's how they do it. And you can't, you can't get that out of the paper. You have to see it and feel it and touch it. >> Exactly. One of the things that Rob Bernshteyn talks about, and he spoke about it this morning, is that the best UI is no UI. And he really talked about what they've done to be user-centric and talked proudly about the adoption that they've had. And you know, it's... We all know whatever software you're putting in an organization, all these, you know, whether its marketing, finance, operation, sales, if people aren't going to use it, it's not going to be able to deliver the value that whoever purchased it and brought it on needs it to do. Talk to me about that user-centric. Did you see and feel that right away in those demos? >> I think if you're a procurement guy, you have suppliers every day send you certain messages, and those messages are fairly consistent around, you know, delivering value and solutions. I mean, Rob's great. He's a bit of a force of nature. Um, you got to say that. But what I like about it is that he's got a very clear sense of vision about what the system should be, and I think he's done a great job of getting that throughout the company, top to bottom. And to date we've felt that. So normally what happens is you buy the software license, you sign the agreement, there's lots of love and care, and then kind of the vendor disappears a little bit, and you're on your own. And to date, Coupa done a great job. We got Damian Pinnell, who's our success manager. I get the sense that he really cares about whether the system is going to do what it promised to do. And how do we get more value out of it? Some of it is about selling more licenses because Coupa have got other modules they want you to buy, but that's kind of okay if the modules are delivering more value, then you don't mind paying for them. But even the modules we own, there is a real sense of are you exploiting it to the max? And that's pretty cool. >> What are some of the key values that you have gleaned so far in just the, what, maybe six months or so that you guys have been using the platform? >> So I'm getting, I'm quite surprised at the extent to the insights, the value I'm getting out of the insights. So as an example, and I'll be honest. Coupa told me that said your, your spend-through catalog is 27% and your industry top quartile is 95. And I kind of went, "Nah, I don't believe you." And then they said, "Your electronic invoicing could be 77%, and you're currently single digits." And I went, "Nah, I don't believe you." And then through the community we spoke to Co-Oper, another Coupa customer, and Marley there was saying, "No, we're doing it. We're at this. "We're at 95% or 97% even." And I went "Well, how are you doing it?" And she just talked me through how they sell it to suppliers and how, in my head, the reluctance to adopt actually evaporated because she was able to sell the idea to suppliers, sell the value as. She didn't force them to do it. She just said this is what you're going to get out of it if you do it this way, and she's genuinely got to 97. So what it's done for me is it's remove my own blockers in my own mind, you know, in my own head "You can't do this." Well, insights and speaking to other communities. Yes, I can. So it's opened my, changed my targets, changed what I think is possible. And I think that's cool. >> You look back to the beginning of your journey in procurement, business, and finance, when you were given this great advice, like "Be open-minded, understand how different parts of the business work," from then to where you are now and what you're able to deliver, in just a short time, leveraging Coupa, would have believed you'd been able to go from there to there? >> Uh, yeah, so Terry would always say to me, you know, if you're going to negotiate a deal, before you even pick up a contract, you would spend an hour with the business owner or the techie or whoever it is, and you just white board, at a technical level, what the solution is. I think that, years and years and years of doing that, of going deeper into technology and software and integration and through deal after deal after deal, when you come to run the project, to implement Coupa, you have that as a foundation. So you're not just at the surface and relying on other technical people because you're lost when you get to this level of detail. You've already got a little bit more depth. So I think that was the big spin-off, in a way. That you're able to have more in-depth conversations at a technical level, which you need to unblock stuff. >> So some of the news that came out today. They talked about what they're doing to expand Coupa Pay with American Express. I was just talking with Barclays. Barclays card been on that for a little while. Looking at the payment space for instance, on the BDC side, we have this expectation as consumers. We can do any transaction, we can pay bills. It hasn't been as... On the B2B side, it hasn't been as innovative. Some technology gaps, large scale. Where do you see Coupa in that respect with what they're doing with Coupa Pay? Do you see that influence from the consumer side that might eventually become an important part of what you're able to do at Provident? >> We haven't enabled Coupa Pay, so I'm in a position to talk authoritatively about it. >> In terms of taking the consumer and demand? >> So I look at the one-time-use credit cards, and I'm really quite excited about what that could do, and I kind of get the business sense and the use case behind that. So that's certainly on our radar. I like the risk-aware products as well, using the big data and AI stuff. So, there's a few things in the road map I've got my eye on. We're deploying expenses module in December/January, so that'll keep us busy on that. And then we'll need to route six months of data through Coupa so that we've got enough of a data pool to do the analytics. So we've got a busy road map, that's for sure. >> For a last question for you, James, for peers of yours, whether they're in financial services industry or not that are facing similar challenges and opportunities to transform procurement, what's you're best advice? >> Mmm, go and spend a few years as a supplier. I think procurement suffers a little bit from people who have only ever been in procurement. And I think that different perspective would be enormously powerful. So I think if we could get more marketing people, more lawyers, more different people and different professions into procurement, I think it would give you a broader perspective rather than a "I've grown up in procurement the last 20 years" sort of perspective. So go and get that holistic, global view would be my suggestion. >> Well, James, that's great advice for anybody, anywhere, and I'm sure Terry would be proud to hear you say that. >> I'm sure he would. >> Thank you so much for joining me on The Cube and sharing with us what Provident is doing with Coupa. We appreciate your time. >> It's been a real pleasure. Thank you, Lisa. >> Excellent. To James Wagstaff, I'm Lisa Martin, and you're watching The Cube from Coupa Inspire 19. Thanks for watching. (computerized tune)

(upbeat tech music) >> Announcer: From London, England it's theCUBE, covering Coupa Insp!re 19 Emea. Brought to you by Coupa. >> Hey, welcome to theCUBE, Lisa Martin on the ground in London at Coupa Insp!re 19. Very pleased to welcome back to theCUBE the CEO and Chairman of Coupa, Rob Bernshteyn. Rob, welcome back. >> Thank you so much, thank you for being with me. >> It's great to be here, so we are in with all of these customers and partners, this has been busy all day. You started things off today with a great keynote. I was telling you before we went live, I lost count of how many big customer examples were sprinkled, and I think infused throughout your keynote. I was looking at some numbers, Coupa just keeps doing this. 5x increase in spend under management since 2016, that's only three years. You guys have thousands of customers, five million suppliers on the platform, lot of growth. What are some of the key drivers to this great growth that you're seeing? Well a couple of things, I mean first of all, this is a huge total addressable market. Every company in the world could do a better job of the way they manage their business spending, and they could use information technology, hopefully from Coupa to help make that happen, and we are so proud to cultivate this community of like minded, thoughtful professionals that want to apply best practices, best in-class modern technology solutions like the ones we offer obviously, to drive quantifiable, measurable, outcomes for the companies that they work for. So in many ways, this is a celebration of our customer community and it's a wonderful opportunity to be with our customers here like this every year in Europe and every year in the United States, and now frankly in lots of other places around the world. >> So one of the themes that was also expressed during the keynote was Rachel Botsman's theme of trust and I think about the open community, the open platform and the community that Coupa is building, there's a lot of earned trust there that Coupa has earned from this growing community. Talk to me about what that means to you and the whole team and how it's influencing the direction that Coupa is going in. >> It means a lot to me personally frankly. The O in Coupa stands for Open, and that means not only technically open in terms of APIs and integrations, but it means open in spirit, open in dialogue, honest, transparent communications. I feel that our industry in enterprise software has a legacy or a history of a lot of PowerPoints, and a lot of demos, but frankly, quite a few failures of large scale deployments and a whole host of sectors. And we want to be part of the solution, we want to have an open, authentic, honest communication with our customers, with our prospective customers in the sales process, with our partners, with all of my Coupa colleagues, so we can avoid the friction and nonsense of politics that often gets in the way of driving measurable, meaningful value for every constituent. It's a very, very important thing to me, it's important to my team, and that's something we're doing our very best to cultivate in this Coupa community that we're creating. >> Speaking of cultivation, Coupa is cultivating this category of Business Spend Management. Tell us a little bit more about that and where you are with that. >> Sure, Business Spend Management is a pretty straightforward three words to describe the fact that our buyers and our customers are responsible for literally trillions of dollars and pounds and dollars and euros of spend all over the world. And as information becomes more and more transparent, the buyer, the one who's repsonsible for that spend becomes more and more powerful. So we sit on the side of that buyer, we give them information technology solutions from sourcing, to inventory management, to spend analytics, to procurement, to expensing, to invoicing, to payments, to supplier performance. All the capabilities needed to help them make the best purchasing decisions for their organizations, and help their companies become more profitable so that every one of these Coupa community customers we have here could get more bang for their buck and be that much more operationally efficient frankly in driving their own company's visions and missions and whatever it is that they bring to the world. And that's very aspirational for us and we're excited that so many have come on board with this establishment of the Business Spend Management category with us. >> So if we look at the PIPE, as you were calling it this morning, P-I-P-E, procure, invoice, pay, expense, I memorized that, you've got this one platform that can deliver all of that to this growing community of users who have the ability to get that visibility. That is one of the biggest challenges, I was reading some stats recently about the number of businesses, they were the percentages of businesses that don't have complete visibility over their spend, it's high. >> It's very high, we just did a study of 250 or so CFOs in the UK, and they're doing a great job at budgeting and reporting, but they have minimal visibility into their supply relationships, especially with what's happening here with Brexit. They have minimal visibility in supply risks, supply chain risks, and one of the ingredients that I think we're very special at and I'm proud of is the U in Coupa, the user centricity. In order to have visibility into your spend, you have to have adoption, you have to have people purchasing, spending, expensing, paying, processing invoices, everything that you just mentioned through this pipe on one centralized platform with a common UI layer, User Experience layer or User Interface, common business logic layer, common data model, use of community intelligence to help you make the best purchasing decisions, spend decisions. So we're really on the forefront of something very, very exciting because this adoption level is happening through this user centricity, and it's given these companies control and visibility of spend, and what could be more important to driving profitability, sustained business development? I think we're in a very unique position to help these customers. >> So is one of the biggest challenges for those, think it was 96% of those UK financial decision makers that you guys surveyed said, "We don't have complete visibility." Is it because they have legacy siloed solutions that don't give them that common layer? Or is it because maybe that and a mixture of users just not adopting it because it's not as intuitive to use? >> It's a number of things. First of all, for every process, whether it's procurement, expenses, invoicing, or payments, they have seperate systems to your point. Some cases, they don't even have systems. They're calling in orders, they're handling paper invoices, so there are different levels of maturity in each of those four areas. So one is getting them on to a common platform where all of those are orchestrating together. Secondarily, there's an opportunity to create synergy between those areas, so a lot of things that are getting expensed really should be preapproved and should be routed toward preferential pricing that procurement can negotiate on behalf of the user. Many times invoices are duplicate coming in from suppliers and AP departments are so excited that they pay quickly, but they're not necessarily sure whether they received the goods and services that the invoice is for. So having one common platform, that's the C in Coupa, Comprehensive. One common comprehensive platform for all these business processes is critical, leveraging the synergy of all them working together is critical, and getting that widespread user adoption is part of the secret formula here. >> Let's talk about the community. It's big, it's growing, 1.3 trillion in spend managed, and I watched our video back that you and I did a few months ago, it was 1.2. So that was four months ago, and you showed a bar chart today of just the last 12 months, had to look up this way to see that, so this community that has the ability to help derive and leverage the insights, talk to me about the insights and being able to help businesses go from reactive to predictive as a game changer for Coupa. >> Sure, it's a huge game changer and we really aspire to be, if you will, the tail that wags the dog in the enterprise software industry overall because the enterprise software industry, in effect, every customer is on their own island using information technology for a certain business process. What we've done with community intelligence is we've aggregated, anonymized, and sanitized data from the customer base and then are distilling insights that we could be prescriptive about. So we could tell our customers and we're telling them, "Hey, our community is having challenges with such "and such supplier based on literally perhaps millions "of dollars and millions of pounds in transactional spend. "We recommend you consider this supplier in "that same category because our community is having "great success with them. "The products are being shipped on time, "there's no war over invoicing, there's no breakage in "what's delivered." Those are just some examples, we're helping them think through commodities. A lot of our customers forgiven commodity, they have 20, 30 different suppliers. We're helping them think through in their industry. How can they do supply consolidation that makes sense based on benchmarking across the entire industry? We're helping them avoid supplier risk, we're helping them avoid fraud, we're identifying employees that may be expensing things or doing things that are fraudulent based on the collective intelligence of what we're seeing around the entire world in real time and we're prescribing actions to be taken before payments go out. So these are just some examples of what we're doing, we're doing things in benchmarking based on community intelligence, we're really just at the tip of the sphere of what's possible and we've prescribed tens of thousands of prescriptions in our platform to our customers. Many of them are taking those prescriptions and are making their businesses more operationally fit, and more agile, which is something we're very, very proud of. >> Speaking of those prescriptions, I think the number you shared this morning was 22,000 prescriptions delivered in one year? >> In the last 12 months, that's right. >> So we've got to talk about acceleration 'cause we've talked about the COUP, the acceleration, that is one example of that. I also saw that you guys have gotten, customers are doing approvals 30% faster than they were a year ago. You're getting mid-market customers up and running in four months, large enterprises up in eight months, talk to me about that acceleration that you guys are achieving. >> Absolutely, the A in Coupa is about Accelerated, it's about learning from our entire customer base and taking those learnings and making them part of best practices-based appointments so we could go faster and faster and faster. We look at retail customer, we've done dozens of retail customers, large and small. We know how to set up catalogs, we know how to set up workflow, we know how to think through the analytics that they need. So when they get going with the deployment from Coupa, they can get up and running way faster than with going back to five or six years ago where you have to think about it from scratch and a blueprint. They could leverage the insight from the community with doing that in mid-market, with doing that in subverticals like credit unions, for example. Biotechs, we're doing it in insurance, we're doing it in pharma, all hosts of industries, and I think as we learn from every deployment and collect those insights, we're going to be able to drive value faster and faster to our customers. And the other element that's important here is it's not just taking the customer live, all of our customers grow with us. They get more and more value every year, this is why our renewal rate is so strong and customers add more business with us because they're getting value and that value continues to grow, and that's really what value as a service is about. We're not a software company, and we're not a software as a service company. We're truly a value as a service company, which is a very different concept and one that we're cultivating in this marketplace. >> What are some of your favorite, I know you love being in front of the customers, what are some of your favorite examples that really show the value that Coupa is delivering to the changing role of procurement, making that girl or guy much more strategic and much more of a partner to the business? >> Sure, I shared some examples this morning that I really loved and appreciated celebrating some of our trendsetters, or what we call spendsetters. You look at Zalando, our retailer where they weren't necessarily going to take them so seriously about savings, but when they went to marketing and said, "We can give you much more bang "for your marketing budget "so you could reach more potential consumers," well of course they embraced that. And we gave them a usable opportunity, a usable platform for doing that as similar Zalando, they engaged. Now they have something like 85% spender management. When we started working with them, they had zero purchase orders, everything was the wild west. You look at, I was just speaking to one of our customers at Procter & Gamble just five minutes ago here at the expo. They've run more than 50 billion pounds of spend through the Coupa platform, 50 billion. That's not easy, but they've done that in just a couple of years with us, and not only did they have visibility spent, but they're saving, they're routing purchases to preferred suppliers, so the list just goes on and on and on our website, at Coupa.com on the Customers tab, you'll see obviously dozens of customers holding up signs of the real measurable value they're getting from working with us and that's something that we really take a lot of pride in. >> That speaks for itself. Last question for you Rob, talk to me about those strategic partnerships that Coupa has. I know some news coming out today with what you guys are doing with American Express. >> Sure, we've entered the payment space and we entered it because our customer community asked us for it. They said, "Look, if we're procuring goods "and services through you, why wouldn't we all, "and we're doing invoice and we're doing all "of the components of the pipe, "why wouldn't we also go deeper into payments, help us pay." Because many now have to log in to all these different ERP systems and kick off batch process, so we went into payments. And in payments, we have a host of partnerships. Now, today we announced the relationship with American Express in the UK and Australia for virtual credit card payments. Now it's very simple in Coupa, someone needs a good or service, it gets routed through workflow for approval. Once approved, a dynamic credit card number is generated by American Express, the individual makes the purchase, and all the reconciliation, the back-end is handled by Coupa. All the reporting, the visibility, the insights to price points and category assessments are there and visible and the company's in a position to fine tune their spend profile. So that's just one example, and we're doing things in dynamic discounting and accelerating payments. We've just launched today in general availability and Robby will be discussing it tomorrow ahead of business acceleration. We launched our batch payments capability, the ability to do invoice payments in batch along any rail, whether it be banking relationships, whether it be eCheck, whether it be credit card, going into one environment and kicking off batch payments without having to wait for all these different ERP systems to take hold. So we're really at the, in my mind, at the very beginning of addressing a huge market opportunity, we're proud of what we've achieved so far. I'm particularly proud of the customer community developing around us, and we're excited about the days, weeks, months, quarters, and years to come. >> So you talked about, last question, the big TAM, in this total adjustable market. What are some of the core elements to Coupa's path to a billion in revenue? >> We're not as exciting to many investors as a hot startup that grows really quickly and maybe has some sort of viral component to it. We've been at this for over 10 years, we've grown thoughtfully, we've grown carefully. The growth is fast 30, 40 plus percent, but it's thoughtful and careful, it's one customer at a time. We're careful in how much we spend on sales and marketing, especially want customers to choose us rather than us hard-selling them on everything, we want the offering to sell itself. We have an ecosystem of systems integrators, now more than 3,000, Centric, APMG, Deloitte, and others that are certified on deploying Coupa. We're expanding our product footprint, our customers now use on average 4.7 applications from us and they're consuming those applications rather than us pushing them on them. We're expanding globally, we're expanding in terms of the enterprise business and the mid-market business. Our mid-market business is now really at scale and scaling beautifully, it's a beautiful business model. So those are just some of the vectors in which we'll continue to expand, but I think the path to $1 billion for us is very clear, and ultimately comes down to execution, delivering for every customer, making sure they're getting value from working with us year in and year out, and I think before you know it, we'll be on the doorstep of that $1 billion. >> Excellent. Rob, it's been a pleasure having you back on theCUBE. Thank you for having theCUBE out here in London, we appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> For Rob Bernshteyn, I am Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE from Coupa Insp!re 19. Thanks for watching. (upbeat tech music)

>>From London, England. It's the cube covering Kupa inspire 19 PVR after you by Cooper. >>Hi. Welcome to the cube Lisa Martin on the ground in London at Kupa inspire 19 please do welcome back to the cube Ravi talker, the SVP, a business acceleration that Cooper won't be welcome back. It's great to be back. Thanks for having me. Likewise. So lots of, lots of buzz around us. Everyone's eating lunch, but there's a lot of folks here in London, a lot of exciting news coming out in this morning. Lot of customers and fused in Rob's keynote. I lost count of how many great customer examples were showed. Talk to us a little bit about Kupa pay and some of the innovations that you guys are delivering now. >>Yeah, absolutely. So pay pays a great new area for Coupa. We call it the fourth pillar and Rob's analogy of the pipe procurement, invoicing, payment and expenses. And so actually we started this journey a really last year at this event where we announced virtual card for purchase orders and a strategic relationship with Barclaycard. And over that past year we've done some amazing things with relationships with JP Morgan, Citibank, and we just announced a great relationship with American express to provide American express virtual cards on the Coupa pay platform. So we've been working hard at it. We've seen some really good success early success with customers. Uh, we announced some other great innovations in our Vegas conference just a few months ago where we announced invoice payments is generally available along with partnerships with Stripe and PayPal. So it's been really busy. >>It has been the B2B payments space. It's a big market, 1.2, I think trillion global and global volume. But it's also challenging because on the consumer side, on the BDC side, it's so easy for us to do transactions right on our phone, tablet watches, and we had this expectation that we can pay for anything. We can find anything, we can pay bills so easily. But on the B2B side there's a lot more complexity. The BDB hasn't, payments hasn't been able to innovate nearly as quickly as on the consumer side. But I'd love to get your thoughts on what is Cooper able to leverage with Coupa pay that's maybe going to start meeting some of the demands of those business folks who in their consumer lives have this expectation of a swipe or a click to do a transaction. >>Yeah, it's a completely different ball game consumer versus B2B, whole avenues around risk profiles of your suppliers. You know if you pay a supplier that's doing illegal business are doing place and where the government doesn't allow it puts your brand and your reputation at risk. Very serious risks. And so we incorporate a lot of what we do with the community. So you heard Rob talk about that in his keynote. A lot of things around community intelligence. So for us being able to rely on thousands of customers of data, millions of transactions, being able to see things across all of our customers and really create alerts and transactional efficiencies for our customers in B2B payments. That's a big change for our customers and we're just starting to get to see some of those transactional elements. I think the second thing that we've seen with B2B payments, and it's interesting money, 2020 is one of the largest, uh, payment conferences, uh, in the world. And it happened I think last week or the week before in Vegas. And this year has been a lot of talk about B2B payments, whereas last year is mostly B to C. and so we feel we've been making an impact in the entire payments area because to us it's bringing together all of the different payment rails, whether it's virtual card or bank transfers or cross border, but being able to do it across dozens and hundreds of countries and it global fashion. That's a big game changer for large enterprises. >>So one of the things that was a theme this morning during the keynote was trust. I had the opportunity to speak with Rachel Botsman trust expert who did a keynote this morning. And as we look at some of the numbers that Rob shared, you mentioned a few of over a thousand plus customers using Coupa. I think he's shared over 5 million suppliers on the platform. You talked about this community, this massive community that you are co creating with. Talk to me about Coupa pay and its ability to help deliver that trust so that Coupa can be that trusted advisor that it wants to be with. It's not just its customers but as partners too. >>No, absolutely. And Rachel's presentation this morning was fantastic. Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, uh, my background actually I Kupa for a decade I ran customer success. So I engaged with C level executives at all of our customers. And as part of that process, a trust was a big factor in that when we said something we would deliver that. And over the course of the years that coop has been around about 1314 years we've held very true. That stands in our number one core value of ensuring customer success. And when you look at all of the customers that are willing to put their six, what we call success metrics, how much they've spent saved the spend that they have under management when they are publicly talking about it. That's trust that we've created with them in this partnership because they believe in what our ability to deliver says we decided to go into payments or we're trust and payments is a very big deal as mentioned earlier. Right? You don't get necessarily fired for screwing up our purchase order or an invoice, but if you send money to the wrong supplier to the wrong country, you know, there's a lot of risk associated with that. So we take that very, very seriously and how we've been developing and creating solutions around Kupa pay. And so it's just the overall Avenue that we work with our, we treat them as partners, not as a vendor supplier relationship. And because of that we have this mutual trust that we're both in this together in this large community. >>Yeah. And Rachel Botsman talk about sort of that balance between, uh, trust and risk. Yeah. Which was very interesting concept. Um, talk to me about, I'm just thinking like even from a fraud on a supplier perspective, one of the things I know that Cuba is able to do is alert a customer, Hey, there's a supplier that has a history of whatever it happens to me that's, that's my inflict risk on that customer. Tell me a little bit about that. From a trust risk kind of balanced perspective, what you guys are delivering there. >>It's a great area that we're just really starting to get into as well. And so being able to leverage the community of buyers and suppliers and having everything in a single code system code platform allows us to do a number of these things. And so for providing our customers, not the necessarily the, the exact thing that they should do, but providing them the relevant information in order for them to make the right decisions. Yeah. There's an old adage that I go by which is trust but verify. And so it's the same similar concept here. It's our goal to provide these prescriptions to our customers on what is the supplier doing or how can you improve your processes. And with these prescriptions, as Rob mentioned this morning, it's, it's up to our customers to choose what they want to do with those prescriptions. Sometimes they may take it, sometimes they may not >>and he gave a number, I want to say 22,000 prescriptions and he gave a time period in the past 12 months. That's what I thought as well. So a lot of insight literally coming out of that community. Love to chat though about the community in terms of the B2B payment space, not only we talked about how it's being influenced by consumers, but the changing role of procurement and finance. Yeah, a lot of just disruption there. We talked about that a few months ago and didn't get a lot of opportunity for financial leaders to become much more strategic and a lot of the examples that Rob shared showed how impactful company wide the impact that procurement folks, finance folks can make. Talk to me about how the Coupa is leveraging that community to help them get more visibility on how that procurement role is changing and how Coupa can help it be much more strategic. You know what I, that's a great question. And >>what I respond with that is, what's the name of our conference? It's inspire, right? We want to inspire this community to really go to that next level and really look deep inside themselves. It, Rob talks about all these different adjectives of Brown, all the different, what we call spend setters. It's a great initiative that we've created because we're giving our community of voice and that's always the biggest thing in how you affect change. How do you give people a voice? How do you give someone a story that they can grasp onto such that they can make it their own, such as they can take those facts and that relevance and apply it to their own day to day jobs. And that's a big thing that we're looking to do. But it requires going back to trust. It requires a little bit of trust in what we're doing. And by providing those stories, it gives these, our customers, our champions, uh, the ability to fall back on those, have that foundation for how to make change, how to disrupt their organizations. You know, Rob gave that great example of Telenor. You know, their seep, their chief procurement officer created a blueprint and a plan to provide mobile service. I think it was an India is a great example of what an individual can do and when you're that individual and you have visibility and tall your supply base into all of the spend going across your company, it's very, very powerful. >>I saw a survey that Cuba did recently have, I think 253 financial decision makers in the U K and some of the stats were quite shocking that 96% I believe said we do not have complete visibility over our entire spend. Right. Wow. Right. That's because one, some of the things that Rob shared this morning was the massive, massive savings that companies can achieve, but not having that visibility. You've got blinders on. There's a lot of risk there. There's a lot of expenses that probably should be going into procurement, but that was really 96% saying we don't have complete visibility. What's Cooper's answer to that? >>You know, it's, it's an interesting statistic. Right? And I, I gave a presentation I think seven, eight years ago, and I started off that presentation with saying, you know, if you are an HR and you didn't have track of all your employees, you'd be fired. If you're a head of sales and you didn't have an understanding of all of your open opportunities for business, you'd be fired. So why is that different for spend? Right? Why not have visibility and have access to all of the different spin that's happening across your company? And your Rob said it best in his keynote. We talked about what's actually happening in the world today. It's not necessarily around customer relationship management software, CRM, right? It's not necessarily around human capital management, but it's the well capitalized businesses of the world today. And today's day and age and this uncertainty of Brexit, uncertainty of the global climate, us, China trade relations, who's well capitalized to make and withstand what could be some, you know, unsettling times. Now there's another very interesting thing we saw with that same survey. Excuse me. Along with some of the things we saw with the wall street journal with some surveys we did with them, these finance professionals, they want to have that visibility and our answer to them come talk to us. >>So speaking of influence, inspiring, tell me a little bit about how the Coupa community influenced or is influencing the evolution of Coupa pay for example was Hey, we've got to have Amex virtual cards integrated with Coupa pay. Was that something that came from the voice of the community? Yeah, so we, >>you know, all across Koopa ever since the inception of the company, it's always around partnering with our customers, with our community to really listen and understand what they, what they're looking for. But doing it in the guy in the, within the framework of our core values as a customer, as a company. And the first one that I mentioned earlier, ensuring customer success. So we want to listen to our customers, we want to better understand them. So around virtual cards, you know, how do we choose to do an Amex or a Barclaycard? And to us it's actually pretty simple. We wanted to make sure that we're able to cover 80 to 90% of our customers with these large issuers. And we've been able to do that over the past year in negotiating these agreements, figuring out the technology components. And so we've been executing and delivering on that over the past, uh, over the past year. >>And if I understand that the press release correctly, KUKA pay with Amex virtual court integration is launching first in the UK and Australia. Correct. Can you tell me a little bit about those markets and what were some of the deciding factors? They said, Hey, well we'll go, we'll parlay on your title of acceleration. Is this, are these the right markets to launch and to accelerate copay? >>Yeah. Um, you know, there's obviously a lot of different ways and opportunities that American express has to go to market, massive company, great company to partner with. And so what we saw with them is from a technology standpoint, starting off in the UK and Australia made the most sense. We also have existing demand with customers that are ready to get going and really help us make sure that we create the right experience. You know, we expect this partnership to be really big and so as part of that, we want to make sure that we're able to deliver in certain markets first before we expand this and make this a much bigger thing. American express has a very prestigious brand. We want to respect and support that and we have our own brand that we want to support with our customers. We want to make sure we do it right. >>Well, Ravi, last question. I know that you're keynoting tomorrow. Yes. What are the couple of takeaways that you're going to leave the audience with tomorrow during your keynote? >>Yeah, it's a great, good question. I think the, the takeaways for tomorrow is we want to share some stories. You know, going back to inspiration, it's all about storytelling. Do we have stories to tell our customers such that they can relate to it and fall back on that? So we have three great customer speakers tomorrow. Really excited about the stories that they're going to share about Cooper pay and their journey with it. And my take away for our are the audiences. How do those stories relate to your business and is there a way that we can help you streamline your payment process? >>Awesome. Robbie, it's been a pleasure. You back on the cube. Best of luck at your keynote tomorrow and we'll see you at the next inspire. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. All right. For Ravi talker, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube from London. Coupa inspire 19.

>> Narrator: From Sand Hill Road, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE, presenting the People First Network, insights from entrepreneurs and tech leaders. >> Hello and welcome to a special Cube conversation, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. We're here at Mayfield Fund on Sand Hill Road, Venture Cap for investing here for the People First co-created production by theCube and Mayfield. Next to us, Phil Finucane who's the former CTO of Express Scripts as well as a variety of other roles. Went to Stanford, Stanford alum. >> Mm hmm. >> Good to see you, thanks for joining me for this interview. >> Thank you, thank you for having me. >> So, before we get into some of the specifics, talk about your career, you're a former CTO of Express Scripts >> Yep. >> What are some of the other journeys that you've had? Talk about your roles. >> Yeah, I've had sort of a varied career. I started off as just a computer coder for a contract coder in the mid-90s. I sort of stumbled into it, not because I had a computer science background, but because when you start coding, sort of for fun in Silicon Valley in the mid-90s, there are just lots of jobs and I was lucky to have great mentors along the way. In 2003, I joined Yahoo and came in as the lead engineer, sort of the ops guy and the build and release guy for the log in and registration team at Yahoo, so I learned how to, went from being just a coder to being somebody who know how to run and build big systems and manage them all around the world. That was in the day when everything was bare metal and I could go to a data center and actually look at my machine and say, "Wow, that one's mine," right? And you know, sort of progressed from there to being the architect by the time that I left for some of the big social initiatives at Yahoo. On my way out, the YOS, the initiative to try to build Facebook in I think 2007, 2008 to try to take them on. That didn't work out too well, but it was definitely a formative experience in my career. From there I went to Zynga, where I was the CTO for Farmville. Was really, really good at getting middle-aged women in the Midwest to come play our game, and you know, was there for >> And it was highly, >> About three years >> high growth, Farmville >> Huge growth >> Took off like a rocket ship. >> Yeah, you know, over the 10 quarters I worked on the game we had over a billion dollars in revenue and that was, you know, the Zynga IPO'd on the back of that, right? And we weren't the only game, but we were certainly >> That was one of the big games >> The big whale, us and poker were the two that really drove the value in Zynga at that point. After that, I went to American Express, where I worked in a division that sort of sat off on the side of American Express focusing on stored value products. I was the chief architect for that division. Stored value products and international currency exchange. So, you know, at one point, I was in charge of both a pre-paid platform and American Express's traveler's checks platform, believe it or not, a thing that still exists. Although it's not heavily used any more. And you know, finally, I went to Express Scripts, where I spent the last three years as the CTO for that org. >> It's interesting, you've got a very unique background, because you know, you've seen the web scale, talk about bare metal Yahoo days, I mean, I remember those days vividly, you know, dealing with database schemas, I mean certainly the scale of Yahoo front page, never mind the different services that they had, which by the way, silo-like, they had databases >> Very, oh totally >> So building a registration and identity system must've been like, really stitching together a core part of Yahoo, I mean, what a Herculean task that must've been. >> Yeah, it was a lot of fun. I learned a lot, you know, we, it was my first experience in figuring out how to deal with security around the web. You know, we had, at the beginning, some vulnerabilities here and there, as time went on, our standards around interacting around the web got better and better. Obviously, Yahoo has run into trouble around that in subsequent years, but it was definitely a big learning experience, being involved in you know, the development of the OAuth 2.0 spec and all of that, I was sort of sitting there advising the folks who were, you know, in the middle of that, doing all the work. >> And that became such a standard as we know, tokens, dealing with tokens and SAS. Really drove a lot of the SAS mobile generation that did cloud, which becomes kind of that next generation so you had, you know Web 1.0, Web 2.0, then you had the cloud era, cloud 2.0, now they're goin' DevOps and apps. I want to get your thought, and you throw crypto in there just for fun, of dealing with blockchain and then token economics and new kinds of paradigms are coming online >> It's amazing how far we've come in those years, right? I mean I look at the database that was built inside of Yahoo and this predated me, you know, this was back to circa 1996, I think, but you know, big massively scalable databases that were needed just because the traditional relational database just wouldn't work at that scale, and Yahoo was one of the first to sort of discover that. And now you look at the database technologies that are out there today that take some of those core concepts and just extend them so much further and they're so much easier to access, to use, to run, operate, all of those things than back in the days of Yahoozle, UDB, and it's amazing just to see how far we've come. >> Phil, I want to get your thoughts, because you know, talking about Yahoo and just your experiences and even today, at that time it was like changing the airplane's engine at 35,000 feet, it's really difficult. A lot of corporate enterprises right nhow are having that same kind of feeling with digital, and digital transformation, I'd say it's a cliche, but it is true this impact, the role of data that's playing and the just for value creation but also cybersecurity could put a company out of business, so there's all kinds of looming things that are opportunities and challenges, that are sizable, huge tasks that was once regulated to the full stack developers and the full web scalers, now the lonely CIO with the anemic enterprise staff has to turn around on a dime. Staff up, build a stack, build commodity, scale out, this is pretty massive, and not a lot of people are talking about this. What's your view on this? Because this is super important. >> Yeah it is, and you know, so I had kind of a shock, moving from working my whole career here on Silicon Valley and then going to American Express, which you know, is very similar in a lot of ways to Express Scripts, and the sort of corporate mindset around, "What is technology?" There is this notion that everything is IT and here in the valley, IT is you know, internal networks and laptops and those sorts of things, the stuff that's required to make your enterprise run internally. Their IT is all of your infrastructure, right? And IT is a service organization, it's not the competitive advantage in your industry, right? And so both of the places that I've gone have had really forward-thinking leaders that have wanted to change the way that their enterprise operates around technology, and move away from IT but, to technology, to thinking about engineering as a core competency. And that's a huge change, not only for the CIO >> You're saying they did have that vision >> They had the vision, but they didn't know how to get there, so my charter coming in and you know, others who were on the teams around me, our charter was to come in and help build a real engineering organization as opposed to an IT org that's very vendor-oriented, you know, that's dependent on third parties to tell you the right thing or the wrong thing, you know that hires consultants to come in and help set up architecture standards, because we couldn't do that on our own, we're not the experts on this side. You know, that's sort of the mindset in many old school companies, right? That needs, that I think needs to change. This notion that software is eating the world is still not something that people have gotten their heads around in many companies, right? >> And data's washing out old business models, so if software's eating the world, data's the tsunami that's coming in and going to take out the beach and the people there. >> Right. And so it's like, all of these things, it's one thing for, you know, a forward-thinking CEO like Tim Wentworth at Express Scripts, who was responsible for bringing me and the group in, you know, those kinds of folks, it's one thing to know that you have to make that transition it's another thing to have a sense of what that means for an engineering team, and all the more for the rest of the organization to be able to get behind it. I mean, people you know, I don't know any number of business partners who've been used to, just sort of taking a spec, throwing it over the wall, and saying, "Come back to me in two years when you're done." That's not how effective organizations work around technology. >> Let's drill into that, because one of the things that's cultural, I mean I do some of the interviews of theCUBE, I talk to leaders all the time like yourself, the theme keeps coming back, it's culture, it's process, technology, all those things you talk about, but culture is the number one issue people point to, saying, "That's the reason why "something did or didn't happen." >> Correct. >> So, you talk about throwing it over the fence, that's waterfall, so you think about the old waterfall methodology, agile, well documented, but the mindset of product thinking is a really novel concept to corporate America Not to Silicon Valley, and entrepreneurs, they got to launch a product, not roll out SAP over two years, right, or something they used to be doing. So that's a cultural mindset shift. >> It's difficult for folks, even if they want to get on board to come along some of the time. One of the real big successes we had early on at Express Scripts was, you know, transitioning our teams to Agile wasn't difficult, what was difficult was getting business partners to sort of come along and be actively engaged in that product development mindset and lifecycle and all those sorts of things. And you know, we had one partner in particular, we were migrating from a really old, really clunky customer care application that you know had taken years and years to build, took on average, a new agent took six weeks to get trained on it because it was so complex and it's Oracle Forms and you know, every field in the database was a field on this thing, and there were green screens to do the stuff that you couldn't do in Oracle Forms, so and we wanted to rebuild the application. We tried to get them to come along and say, "Okay, we're going to do it in really small chunks," but business partners were like, "No, we can't afford "to have our agents swiveling between two applications." And so finally after we got our first sort of full-feature complete, we begged to go into a call center, you know with our business partners, and sit down with a few agents and just have them use it and see if it looked like it worked, if it did the right thing, and it was amazing seeing the business partner go, over the course of an hour, from "I can't be engaged in this, "I don't want an agent swiveling, "I don't want to be, you know, delivering partial applications "I want the whole thing." to, "Oh my god, it works way better, "the design is much nicer, the agents seem to like it," you know, "Here are the next things we should work on, "These are the things we got wrong." They immediately pivoted, and it wasn't, it was because they're the experts, they know how to run their business, they know what's important in their call centers, they know what their agents need, and they had just never seen the movie before, they just had no concept you could work that way. >> So this is actually interesting, 'cause what you're saying is, a new thing, foreign to the business partners, the tech team's on board, being Agile, building product, they have to, they can't just hear the feature benefits, they got to feel it. >> Yeah, they have to see it >> This seems to be the experience of success before they can move. Is that a success you think culturally, something that people have to be mindful of? >> It's absolutely something you have to be mindful of. And that was just the first step down the path. I mean, that team made a number of mistakes that folks here I think in the valley wouldn't normally make, you know. Over-committing and getting themselves into deep water by trying to get too much done and actually getting less accomplished in the process because of it and you know, the engagement around using data to actually figure out what's the next feature that we build. When you've got this enormous application to migrate, you should probably have some insight as to you know, feature by feature, what are you going to work on next? And that was a real challenge, 'cause there's a culture of expertise-driven, you know being subject-matter driven, expertise driven as opposed to being data driven about how do you >> Let's talk about data-driven. We had an interview earlier this morning with another luminary here at the Mayfield 50th conference celebration that they're having, and he said, "Data is the new feedback mechanism." and his point was, is that if you treat the Agile as an R&D exercise from a data standpoint. Not from a product but get it out there, get the data circulating in, it's critical in formulation of the next >> It is, yeah, it's absolutely critical. That was the eye opener for me going to Zynga. Zynga had an incredible, probably still does have, an incredible product culture that every single thing gets rolled out behind an experiment. And so you know, that's great from an operational perspective, because it allows you to, you know, move quickly and roll things out in small increments and when it doesn't work, you can just shut it off but it's not some huge catastrophe. But it's also critical because it allows you to see what's working and what's not and the flip side of that is, some humility of the people developing the products that their ideas are not going to work sometimes just because you know this domain well doesn't mean that you're necessarily going to be the expert on exactly how everything is going to play out. And so you have to have this ability to go out, try stuff, let it fail, use that, hopefully you fail quickly, you learn what's not working and use that to inform what's the next step down the path that you take, right? And Agile plays into it, but that's for me, that's the big transition that corporations really have to struggle with, and it's hard. >> You know you're, been there done that, seen multiple waves of innovation, want to bring up something to kind of get you going here. You see this classically in the old school 90s, 80s day. Product management, product people and sales people. They're always buttin' heads, you know? Product marketing, marketing people want this sales and marketing want this, product people buttin' heads, but now with Agile, the engineering focus has been the front lines. People are building engineering teams in house. They're building custom stacks for whatever reasons, the apps are getting smarter. The engineers are getting closer to the edge, the customer if you will. How do you help companies, or how do you advise companies to think about the relationship between a product-centric culture and a sales-centric culture? Because sometimes you have companies that are all about the customer-centric, customer-centric customer-centric, product-centric and sometimes if you try to put 'em together there's always going to be an alpha-beta kind of thing there and that's the balance in this. What's your take on this? Seems to be a cutting edge topic >> Yeah, well, so you know, one of the last big initiatives that I worked on at Express Scripts. Express Scripts has the, to my knowledge, the largest automated home delivery pharmacy in the world. It's amazing if you walk into one of our pharmacies where automation is packaging and filling prescriptions and packaging and shipping and doing all of that stuff. And we've built so much efficiency into the process that we've started getting slack in the system. Every year, you're trying to figure out how to make something work better and you know, have better automation around it. And so, you know, what do you do with all of that slack? The sales team can't sign up enough new customers for Express Scripts to actually fill that capacity. And so they create a division of commoditizing this, basically white labeling your pharmacy. We called it Pharmacy as a Platform, exposing APIs to third parties who might want to come along and hey, Phil's pharmacy can now fill branded prescriptions to get sent to you in your home, right? And so that's a fantastic vision, but there's a real struggle between engineering who had all these legacy stacks that we needed to figure out how to move to be able to really live up to this, you know the core of Express Scripts was our members and not somebody else's members. And so there's a lot of rewiring at the core that needs to be done. An operations team, a product team that's, you know, running these home delivery pharmacies, and a sales team that wants to go off and sell all over the place, right? And so, you know, early on, we started off and the sales team tried to sell, like six different deals that all required different parts of the vision, but you know, they weren't really, there was no real roadmap to figure out how do you get from where we're at to the end, and we could've done any of those things, but trying to do them all at once was going to be a trainwreck. And so, you know, we stubbed our toes a couple of times along the way, but I think it just came down to having a conversation and trying to be as transparent as possible on all sides, in all sides. To you know, try to get to a place where we could be effective in delivering on the vision. The vision was right. Everybody was doing all of the right things. But if you haven't actually, with so much of this stuff, if you haven't seen the movie, if you haven't worked this way before, there's nothing I can tell you that's going to make it work magically for you tomorrow. You have to just get this together and work in small increments to figure out how to get there. >> You got to go through spring training, you got to do the reps. >> Yep, absolutely. >> All right, so on your career, as you look at what you've done in your career, and what people outside are looking at right now, you got startups trying to compete and get a market position. You have other existing suppliers who could be the old guard, retooling and replatforming, refactoring, whatever the buzz word you want to use. And then the ultimate customer who wants to consume and have the ability of having custom personalization, data analytics, unlimited elastic capability with resources for their solution. How, what advice would you give to the startup, to the supplier, and to the customer to survive this next transition of cloud 2.0, you know and data tsunami, and all the opportunities that are coming? Because if they don't, they'll be challenged a startup goes out of business, a supplier gets displaced. >> Right, I mean, well, so the startup, I don't know if I have good advice for the startup. Startups in general have to find a market that actually works for them. And so, you know, I don't know that I've got some secret key that allows startups to be effective other than don't run out of money, try to figure out how to build effectively to get you to the point where you're, you know, where you're going to win. One of my earliest, one of the earliest jobs I had in my career, I came into a startup, and I tried, one of the founders had written the initial version of the code base. I, as a headstrong engineer, was convinced that he had done horrible work, and so I sort of holed up for like, six to eight weeks doing a hundred hours a week trying to rewrite the entire code base while getting nothing done for the startup. You know, in the end, that was the one job I've ever been fired from, and I should've been fired, because, you know, honestly as a startup, you shouldn't worry about perfection from an engineering perspective. You should figure out how to try to find your marketplace. Everybody has tech debt, you can fix that as time goes on, the startup needs to figure out how to be viable more than anything else. As far as suppliers go, you know, I don't know it's interesting the, you know, I sort of look at corporate America and there are many many companies that really rely heavily on their vendors to tell them how to do things. They don't trust in their own internal engineering ability. And then there are the ones, like the teams I have built at AmEx and Express Scripts that really do want to learn it all and be independent. I would say, identify when you walk into somebody's shop which they are and sell to them appropriately. You know, I've been a Splunk customer for a long time, I love Splunk. But the Splunk sales team early on at Express Scripts tried to come in and sell me on a whole bunch of stuff that Splunk was just not good at, right? >> And you knew that. >> And I knew that, because I've been a hands-on customer every since Zynga, right? I know what it's good at, and I love it as a tool, but you know, it's not the Swiss Army knife. It can't do everything. >> Well now you got Signal FX, so now you can get the observability you need. >> Exactly, right? So yeah, I, you know, I would say, you know, for those kinds of companies, it's important to go in and understand what your customer is, you know, what your customer is asking for and respond to them appropriately. And in some cases, they're going to need your expertise, either because they're building towards it or they haven't gotten there yet, and some cases, one of the things that I have done with teams of mine in the past, was it with AppDynamics at Express Scripts, excuse me at AmEx, five or six years ago, they were sold on, you know, bringing in AppDynamics as a monitoring tool, I actually made them not bring it in, because they didn't know what they didn't know. I made them go build some basic monitoring, you know, using some open source tools, just to get some background, and then, you know, once they did, we ended up bringing AppDynamics in, but doing it in a way that they were accretive to what we were trying to accomplish and not just this thing that was going to solve all of our problems. >> And so that brings up the whole off-the-shelf general purpose software model that you were referring to. The old model was lean on your vendors. They're supplying you, and because you don't have the staff to do it yourself. That's changing, do you think that's changing? >> It is, it's changing, but again, I think there's a lot of places where people nominally want to go there, but don't know how to get there, and so, you know, people are stubbing their toes left and right. If you're doing it with this mindset of, we're constantly getting better and we're learning and it's okay to make mistakes as long as we move forward, >> It's okay to stub your toe as long as you don't cut an artery open. >> Yeah, that's true, yeah exactly >> You don't want to bleed out, that's a cybersecurity hack >> That's true, that's true. But for me a lot of the time that just comes down to how long are you waiting before you stub your toe? If you're, you know, if you wait two years before you actually try to launch something, the odds of you cutting your leg off are much higher than >> Well I want to get into the failure thing, so I think stubbing your toe brings up this notion of risk management, learning what to try, what not to do, take experiments to try to your, which is a great example. Before you get there, you mentioned suppliers. One of the things we hear and I want to get your thoughts on, is that, a lot of CIOs and C-sos, and CBOs, or whatever title is the acronym, they're trying to reduce the number of suppliers. They don't want more tools, right? They don't necessarily want another tool for the tool's sake or they might want to replatform, what does that even mean? So, we're hearing in our interviews and our discussions with partitioners, "Hey, I want to get my suppliers down, "and by the way, I want to be API driven, "so I want to start getting to a mode "where I'm dictating the relationship to suppliers." How do you respond to that? Do you see that as aspirational, real dynamic, or fiction? >> It's a good goal to give motivation, I believe it. For me, I approach the problem a little differently. I'm a big believer, well, so, because I've seen this pattern of this next tool is going to be the one that consolidates three things and it's going to be the right answer and instead of eliminating three and getting down to one, you have four, because you're, you need to unwire this new thing, there's a lot of time and effort required to get rid of, you know, your old technology stack, and move to the new one, right? I've seen that especially coming from the C-Sec for Express Scripts is an amazing guy, and you know, was definitely trying to head down that path but we stubbed our toes, we ran into problems in trying to figure out, you know, how do you move from one set of networking gear to the next set? How do you deal with, you know, all of the virus protection and all the other, there's a huge variety of tools. >> So it's not just technical debt, it's disruption >> It's disruption to the existing stack, and you've got to move from old to new, so my philosophy has always been, with technical debt, when you're in debt, and I think technical debt really does operate in a lot of ways like real debt, right? Probably good to have some of it. If you're completely debt-free, that's I've never been in that place before. >> You're comfortable. You might not be moving, >> Exactly, right? But with that technical debt, you know, there's two ways to pay down your debt. You can scrimp and save and put more money into debt principal payments as opposed to spending on other new things, or, well and/or, build productive capacity. So a huge focus for me for the engineering teams that we've built, and this is not anything new to the folks in this area, but, you know, always think about an arms race, where you're getting 1% better every day. The aggregation of marginal gains and investing in internal improvements so that your team is doubling productivity every year, which is something that's really possible for, you know, some of these engineering organizations, is the way that you deal with that, right? If you get to the point where your team is really, really productive, they can go through and eliminate all the old legacy technology. >> That's actually great advice, and it's interesting, because a lot of people just get hung up on one thing. Operating something, and then growing something, and you can have different management styles and different techniques for both, the growth team, the operating team. You're kind of bringing in and saying, we can do both. Operate with growth in mind, to 1% better approach. >> Right, you know, and for me, it's been an interesting journey, you know. I started off as the engineer and then the architect, who was always focused on just the technology, the design of the system in production. Sort of learned from there that you had to be good at the you know, all the systems that get code from a developer's desktop into production, that's a whole interrelated system that's not isolated from your production system. And then from there, it has to be the engineering team that you build has to be effective as well. And so, I've moved from being very technology-centric to somebody who says, "Okay, I have to start "with getting the team right "and getting the culture right if we're ever going to "be able to get the technology to a good place." Mind you, I still love the technology. I'm still an architect at my core, but I've come to this realization that good technology and bad teams will get crushed by bad technologies and good teams. Because now I've seen that a couple of places, where you have old but evolving technology stacks that have gone from low availability and poor performance and low ability to get new features into production to a place where you're fixing all of that at a high rate. It starts with the team. >> You're bringing us some core Silicon Valley ethos to the IT conversation, because what you're talking about is "I'll fund an A team with a B plan any day "over a B team with an A plan." >> Right. >> And where this makes sense, I think is true, is that to your point about debt, A teams know how to manage it. >> Yeah. >> So this is kind of what you're getting at here. >> Right. >> You can take that same ethos, so it's the Agile enterprise. >> Yeah, it is >> That's what we're talking about. Okay, so hypothetical final point I want to chat with you about. Let's just say you and I were startin' a company. We're chief architects, you're the chief architect, I'm a coder, what are we doing? Do I code from horizontally scalable cloud, certainly cloud native, how would you think about building, we have an app in mind, all of our requirements defined, it's going to be data-centric, it's going to be game change and have community, it might have some crypto in there, who knows, but it's going to be fun. How do we scale this out to be really fast? How would you architect this? >> Yeah, well, you know, I do start in the cloud. I go to AWS or Azure or any of the offerings that are out there, and you know, leverage everything that they have that's already wired up already for you. I mean the thing that we've seen in the evolution of software and production systems over the last, well, forever, is you get more and more leverage every day, every year, right? And so, if you and I are startin' a new company, let's go use the tools that are there to do the things that we shouldn't be wasting our time on. Let's focus on the value for our company as much as we can. Don't over-architect. I think premature optimization is a thing that you know, I learned early on is a real problem. You should, you know >> Give an example, what that would look like. >> I've seen >> Database scale decisions done with no scale >> Correct, yeah, you know? You go off >> Let's pick this! It's the most scalable database, well we have no users yet. >> Right, you know you build the super complicated caching architecture or you know, you go design the most critical part of the system out of the gate, you know, using Assembly. You use C++ or, you use a low level language when a high level language with your three users would be just fine, right? You can get the work done in a fraction of the time. >> And get the business logic down, the IP, >> Solve the problem when it becomes a problem. Like, it's, you know, I've, any number of times, I've run into systems, I've built systems where you have some issue that you run into, and you have to go back and redesign some chunk of the system. In my experience, I'm really bad at predicting, and I think engineers are really bad at predicting what are going to be the problem areas until you run into them, so just go as simple as you can out of the gate, you know. Use as many tools as you can to solve problems that, you know, maybe as an engineer, I want to go rebuild every thing from scratch every time. I get the inclination. But it's >> It's a knee-jerk reaction to do that but you stay your course. Don't over-provision, overthink it, thus start taking steps toward the destination, the vision you want to go to, and get better, operate >> Solve the problem you have when it shows up. >> So growth mindset, execute, solve the problems when they're there. >> Right, and initially the problem that you have is finding a market, you know, not building the greatest platform in the world, right? >> Find a market, exactly. >> Right? >> Phil, thanks for taking the time >> Thank you very much, appreciate it. >> Appreciate the insights. Hey, we're here for the People First, Mayfield's 50th celebration, 50 years in business. It's a CUBE co-production, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching >> Thanks John. (outro music)

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape hi everybody Dave Volante here with Stu minumum we have some breaking analysis we're gonna break down the acquisition of IBM Red Hat by IBM was announced today that it closed Stu was originally announced in October a 34 billion dollar acquisition so not a surprise surprise that it closed a little bit earlier than people thought people would thinkin you know well into the second half closed in July they got through all the all the issues in Europe what does this mean in your view to the industry yeah so Dave we did a lot of analysis when the deal was announced absolutely the the cloud and the ripples of change that are happening because of cloud are the impetus for this and you know the the question we've been having for years Dave is you know how many companies can stay kind of independent in you know their swimlane to what they're doing or are we going to see more massive consolidations we're not that far off of the 67 billion dollar acquisition of Dell buying EMC to go heavily into the enterprise market and of course there are cloud implications what happened there and you know we're watching the growth of cloud what's happening in the developer world you know we've watched Red Hat for a long time and you know Red Hat has a nice position in the world and it carved themselves out a nice role into what has been emerging as hybrid and multi cloud and in my opinion that's you know the number one reason why arvind and the IBM team you know when to take that 20-year partnership and turn it into you know now just part of the IBM portfolio Arvind Krishna executive at IBM a longtime player there so the the the deal is so you talked about Dells acquisition we've talked a lot about the VMware model keeping the company separate and of course Red Hat is not going to be a separately traded public company it is going to be a distinct unit inside of IBM's cloud and cognitive software group as I understand it is that right so the question is will it be reported separately or is it going to be oh we're gonna throw everything into our cloud number yeah so Dave this is where all of us that have watched and known IBM you know for our entire careers because they've been around over a hundred years on ask what's going to happen so from a reporting structure Jim Whitehurst reports to Ginny from a Wall Street standpoint it sounds like it's gonna be just thrown into the cloud piece you know Dave isn't it that the the the standard practice today that you throw lots of stuff in there so we can't figure out what your cloud business really is I mean let's look at Oracle or even Microsoft and what they had you know Amazon's probably the only one that clearly differentiates you know this is revenue that we all understand is cloud and can you know touch and feel it so sure I IBM you know you've got all of the the piece that used to be soft layer it's now the IBM cloud piece there are lots of software pieces in that mix the cloud and cognitive is a big umbrella and you know Red Hat adds a few billion dollars worth of revenue into that stream so IBM's assumptions here juni talks a lot about chapter two chapter one was a lot of front-end systems that sort of the growth was everybody thought everything was going into the cloud that's really not the way it is 80% of the workloads are still on Prem and in Chapter two was all about you know connecting those to any cloud multi-cloud heard her words the IBM cloud or the Amazon Google or Microsoft cloud etc etc she made the statement that that we are the only hybrid multi-cloud open source company okay I guess that's true does it matter that they're the only hybrid multi-cloud open source company and are they yeah so I mean Dave anytime a vendor tries to paint themselves as the number one or you know leader in the space it's you know that's how they're defining it that's not how customers think of it customers you know don't think is much about whether it's multi cloud or hybrid cloud they're doing cloud and they're working with you know more than one supplier it is very rare that you find somebody I'm all-in and then you dig in oh yeah wait I'm using office 365 and Salesforce and oh wait there was that cool new thing that Google announced that somebody off on the sides doing so we understand that today it's a multi cloud world tomorrow to be a multi cloud we're absolutely open source is growing you know at great leaps and bounds Red Hat is you know the you know best example we've had of that that trend something I've been watching for the last 20 years and you know it is impressive to see it but you know even when you talk to customers of you know most customers are not you know flag-waving I must do everything open-source you know that they have a little bit more nuanced view of it sure lots of companies are participating in contributing to open source but you know I've yet to talk to too many companies that were like well when I'm making this decision you know this is absolutely what it is am i concerned about my overall costs and I'm concerned about transparency am i concerned about you know security and how fast I can get things resolved and by the way open-source can help with a lot of those things that's what they need to think about but look IBM you know had a longtime partnership with Red Hat Red Hat has a strong position in the marketplace but they're not the only ones there you know you mentioned VMware Dave VMware cross has a strong play across multi cloud environments you know we see Red Hat at all of the cloud shows you see yeah IBM at many of the cloud shows but you've got Cisco out there with their play it is still you know this this chapter - if you agree with Ginny's terminology we are relatively early in that but you know IBM I believe is strengthened in their positioning I don't think it radically changes the landscape just because you know Red Hat is still going to stay you know working with the Amazons and Microsoft and Google's and and and other players out there so it doesn't dramatically change the landscape it just consolidates two players that already worked closely let me ask a question so I mean was clearly positioning this as a cloud play you know generally and you know in a multi cloud specifically is this a cloud play okay um so I'll say yes but Dave so absolutely the future and where the growth for Red Hat and where IBM and for this thirty four billion dollars to be successful the tip of the spear is open shift and therefore you know how does that new cloud native multi cloud environment you know where do they play but at its core you know red heads still Linux Red Hat Enterprise Linux you know is it stills you know that is the primary driver of revenue and Linux isn't going away as a matter of fact Linux is growing Microsoft you know just revealed that there are more Linux workloads sitting in Azure than there are windows we already knew that there were you know strong Linux out there and Microsoft is embrace Linux we saw Satya Nadella at Red Hat summit and you know we've seen that proliferation of linux out there so linux is still you know growing in it where it's being used out there and in the cloud you know linux is what most people are using so the reason why I think this acquisition is interesting Jim Whitehurst today said publicly that it was a great deal that IBM was getting but then he couched he said of course it's a great deal for our shareholders too so and Ginni chimed in and said yes it was a fair deal okay fine 34 billion you know we'll see the reason why I think IBM likes this deal and IBM you know generally has been been good over in history with acquisitions you know clearly some mega acquisitions like PwC which was transformative me we have time to talk about that Cognos and some of the other software acquisitions done quite well not a hundred percent but the reason why I think IBM likes this deal is because it's a good cash flow deal so I think in many ways and they don't talk about this because it's not sexy marketing but iBM is a services company over 60% of the company's revenue comes from professional services IBM loves complexity because they can bring in services throw the big blue blanket around you and do a lot of integration work and the reason is that I think this is an interesting acquisition from from a financial standpoint and Ginny says this all the time this is not about cost synergies this is about revenue opportunities when you try to put everything in the cloud you always run into the back-end systems and her point is that those back-end systems need to be modernized how do you modernize those back-end systems openshift it's not trivial to do that you need services and so iBM has a large install base probably by my estimate you know certainly tens of billions of dollars of opportunity there to modernize back-end systems using Red Hat technology and that means that it's a front-loaded deal from a cash flow standpoint that they will find automatically revenue Cyn to plug in to IBM's captive install base what are your thoughts yeah Dave III think that your analysis is spot-on so RedHat has been one of these most consistent you know revenue companies out there you steadily when they went from a billion dollars to now they're right around three billion dollars they had the March to five billion dollars they had a couple of minor blips in their quarterly earnings but if you plug in that IBM services organization you really have the opportunity to supercharge this is not the opportunity is to have that that huge IBM services organization really helped you know grow those engagements do more openshift you know get more Linux help ansible you know really become the standard for you know automation in the modern workplace the challenge is that too many IBM people get involved because the the thing that everybody's a little worried about is IBM's done well with a lot of those acquisitions but they don't leave them stand alone even you know VMware for many years was a standalone company today VMware in Dell they're one company they're in lockstep from a management standpoint and they're working closely together what differentiates RedHat is you know iBM has groups that are much larger than RedHat that do some of the same things but RedHat with their open-source mission and and where they're driving things and the innovation they drive they move a little bit faster than IBM traditionally does so can will the Red Hat brand the Red Hat people and Red Hat still stay independent enough so that they can till you know hop on that next wave you know they they jumped early into kubernetes and that was the wave that really helped them drive for what they're doing the open shift you know even Dave you know Red Hat ahead bought core OS which was a smaller company moving even faster than Red Hat and while they've done a really good job of integrating those people absolutely from what I've heard it is slowed things down a little bit just because Red Hat compared to core OS was a much bigger company and of course IBM is a be a myth compared to Red Hat so will they throw these groups together and you know who will be making the decisions and can they you know maintain that that culture and that growth mindset well the point is structure we bring up VMware a lot as the model and of course when EMC bought VMware for paltry six hundred million six thirty five million dollars it folded it in and then spun it back out which was the right move certainly allowed the ecosystem to blossom I don't think IBM is gonna take that same approach blue wash is the term they'll probably blue wash that now cuz no Dave they said iBM has said they will not blue eyes there's no purple red stay separate absolutely there's concerns you know so to get those revenue synergies there's there's you're gonna have to plug into IBM systems and that requires some some work and IBM generally good at that so we'll see we'll keep our eyes on that it's but but I would predict that IBM is not going to do a VMware like well it's going to be some kind of hybrid Dave one of the other things is you talked about so Jim Whitehurst you know executive respective had him on the cube a lot he's reporting to Ginny you know the question is is this Ginny's last big move and who replaces her yeah let's talk about succession planning so a lot of a lot of rumors that Whitehurst is is next he's 52 years old I've said I don't I don't think they would do that but but let's talk about it first of all just you know Jim white her side sort of interviewed him the number of times but but you know I'm quite well you think even watch the job so you know I talked with Jim a little bit at red hat summit you know he kind of makes light of it he said you know knowing IBM the way we all know IBM IBM has always taken somebody from inside to do that he feels that he has a strong mission still to drive Red Hat he is super passionate about Red Hat he wrote a book book about the open source culture and is still driving that so I think from everything I see from him that's still the job that he loves and wants to do and you know it's a very different challenge to run IBM I'm not saying he would turn it down if that was the direction that it went if it went down to it but I did not see him angling and positioning like that would be where he wants to go well and of course you know Jim is from North Carolina he's got that kind of southern folksy demeanor you know comes across as the so the nicest guy in the room he's also the smartest guy in the room but oh we'll see we'll see what happens there I've said that I think Martin Schroder is going to be the next CEO of IBM Martin Schroder did three years of combat duty as the CFO in in what was a tough time for IBM to be a CFO they were going through those big transitions talking about you know they had to had to do the the SoftLayer acquisition they had to put together those strategic initiatives and so he's has he has CFO chops so he understands finance deeply he ran you know when IBM's big services business he's now responsible for IBM's revenue generation he's a spokesperson you know in many ways for the company he's like the prototypical choice he would not be surprising at all to see IBM plug him right in a little bit of history as you know still him a bit of a history historian of the industry have been around for a while John Akers back in the early 1990s when IBM's mainframe business was was tanking and the whole company was was tanking and it was at the risk of actually believe it or not running out of money they were gonna split up the company because the industry was breaking apart Intel and microprocessors Microsoft and software C gated disk drives you know Oracle and databases and to be more competitive from a product standpoint they were gonna split the company up into pieces Gerstner came in and said no way Gerson it was you know CEO of American Express said no that's not how customers want to buy he bought PwC for a song compared to what Carly Fiorina at HP a Carly Fiorina at HP wanted to pay I think 15 billion for it I want to say IBM paid five billion or maybe even less for PwC it completely transformed the company it transformed IBM into a services company and that's where what IBM is today they don't like when you say that but that's where the revenue was coming from what that did now and they also started to buy software companies IBM was restricted from getting into applications for years and years and years because of the DOJ because they owned the mainframe they had a monopoly while Microsoft and Intel changed all that IBM started to buy software companies and bought lots of them so they became a services company with a collection of software assets and the main mainframe and you know the power they have a storage business and you know Finance I'd be a global finance business etc etc so my my point is I'm not sure Jim Whitehurst would want to run that you know it's it's kind of messy now what you need run that is somebody who really understands finance knows how to turn the knobs and that's why I think you know Martin Schroeder is actually an excellent pick for that to keep the cash flow going to keep the dividend going to keep the stock buybacks going it's still in my view not a growth play I think there's certainly near-term growth that can be had by modernizing applications but I don't look at IBM as a growth company I look at IBM as a portfolio company that throws off a lot of cash and if and when the market stops rewarding growth and profit list growth a company like IBM will become more favorable to investors yeah and the question at the end of the day is after spending thirty four billion dollars for red hat does IBM help weather the storm of what is happening with the phenomenal growth of AWS the changes happening in Microsoft build more of a relationship than they've already had with Google and help position themselves for this next wave of IT there's IBM helped create a lot of the waves that you know happen in IT well the pure play cloud players are in it for the long game you know you know Amazon's philosophy is give tools to builders and allow them to disrupt the you know traditional old guard whether it's old guard technology companies or old guard industry players and you've seen the stat of how many Fortune 1000 companies or you know have gone out of business in the last 20 or 30 years or whatever it is that's going to continue and Amazon and and certainly Google and Microsoft want to support that disruption by providing cloud tooling and put the data in the hands of people that allows them to create new business models now that doesn't mean everybody's gonna throw up there mainframes it's it's not gonna happen it's certainly not gonna happen overnight and probably will never happen but I just don't see how IBM becomes a growth company in that scenario the growth is going to be continue to be with the cloud well but Dave we had seen IBM I'd say struggle a little bit when it comes to the the developers these days and the Red Hat acquisition is definitely going to be a boon to them in this space because Red Hat all about the developers that that's what you know that their customers are so you know that that's such a huge community that they've already tapped into so Ginny has said this hybrid multi-cloud is a chapter two with a trillion dollar opportunity so who else is going after that trillion dollar opportunity let's let's lay it out there who are the multi cloud players VMware obviously IBM Red Hat with open shift is in there Google with anthos Cisco is coming at it from a network perspective so they have coming at it from their position of strength even though you know you know they're relatively new entrants well ever everybody wants to be the new management layer in this multi cloud environment what VMware had done is had you know vCenter became you know the console for everyone as they were consolidating all of their silos and when I go to a multi cloud environment right where do I live you know Microsoft has a strong play there that's the other you know VMware IBM Red Hat anthos Google Mentos Cisco and Microsoft yeah and of course the one that while they won't say that they are multi cloud you can't talk about multi cloud without talking about Amazon because Amazon is a piece of everyone's cloud environment we were seeing what they're doing with outpost there so they are the kind of Spectre looming over this entire multi-cloud discuss yeah right on I think you got to put Amazon into that mix they will be an entrance into this multi cloud play and it's not gonna be a winner-take-all deal I could say cisco is coming at it from a position of networking strength Microsoft has its software estate and it's gonna do very well there IBM Red Hat coming at it from a standpoint of modernizing applications and there's a services could play and services component there and VMware of course coming at it from the the infrastructure operating system I don't see Oracle as interested in that market there may be some smaller players like turbo anomic you know who probably get gobbled up by one of these guys that we just mentioned but that really is the landscape and this is you know five six companies a trillion dollars there's plenty to go around all right Stu final thoughts on on the the Red Hat news the IBM news that they've finalized the Red Hat acquisition yes so you know what you want to look for is you know first of all you know what's happening organizationally you know if open shift is the primary you know the the tip of the sphere what we're talking about here for this you know cloud native multi-cloud world you know what does you know the IBM Cloud messaging looked like they're gonna have an analyst event here in a couple of weeks that you know that they've invited all the analysts to going into what does that cloud portfolio looks like how do they sort through all of the kubernetes options that they've had today do they try to elevate IBM cloud to be a stronger player or will they let Red Hat continue to play across all of the cloud environments that they have so you know organization and product positioning of the two things that I'm looking at the most Tom Siebel said publicly yesterday that IBM is a great company national international treasure but they miss cloud and they missed a I I wouldn't agree totally they didn't miss cloud they were late to cloud they had to buy software they're in cloud just like Oracle's in cloud not as competitive as the AWS cloud but they're they've got a cloud yeah HP doesn't have a cloud Dell doesn't have a cloud these these two companies that I just mentioned do AI yeah they're not sound of generalized AI like what Google and Amazon and Facebook and Microsoft are doing IBM's trying to solve you know big chewy problems iBM is a services company as they said so you know Watson you see a lot of negative stories about Watson but Watson requires a lot of services to make it work and it's as they say solving different problems so they're a player in AI multi cloud is new and this move the acquisition of red hat yes thirty four billion dollars expensive it's not gonna be pretty on the balance sheet but they get good cash flow so they'll deal with that over time it puts them right in the mix as a leader in multi cloud so thanks to for breaking down the the acquisition and thank you for watching this is Dave Volante what's do min and then we'll see you next time

>> reply from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering Google Club next nineteen Tio by Google Cloud and its ecosystem partners. >> We're back at Google Cloud next twenty nineteen. You're watching the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage on Dave a lot with my co host to minimum John Farriers. Also here this day. Two of our coverage. Hash tag. Google Next nineteen. Mike Evans is here. He's the vice president of technical business development at Red Hat. Mike, good to see you. Thanks for coming back in the Cube. >> Right to be here. >> So, you know, we're talking hybrid cloud multi cloud. You guys have been on this open shift for half a decade. You know, there were a lot of deniers, and now it's a real tail one for you in the whole world is jumping on. That bandwagon is gonna make you feel good. >> Yeah. No, it's nice to see everybody echoing a similar message, which we believe is what the customers demand and interest is. So that's a great validation. >> So how does that tie into what's happening here? What's going on with the show? It's >> interesting. And let me take a step back for us because I've been working with Google on their cloud efforts for almost ten years now. And it started back when Google, when they were about to get in the cloud business, they had to decide where they're going to use caveat present as their hyper visor. And that was a time when we had just switched to made a big bet on K V M because of its alignment with the Lenox Colonel. But it was controversial and and we help them do that. And I look back on my email recently and that was two thousand nine. That was ten years ago, and that was that was early stages on DH then, since that time, you know, it's just, you know, cloud market is obviously boomed. I again I was sort of looking back ahead of this discussion and saying, you know, in two thousand six and two thousand seven is when we started working with Amazon with rail on their cloud and back when everyone thought there's no way of booksellers goingto make an impact in the world, etcetera. And as I just play sort of forward to today and looking at thirty thousand people here on DH you know what sort of evolved? Just fascinated by, you know, sort of that open sources now obviously fully mainstream. And there's no more doubters. And it's the engine for everything. >> Like maybe, you know, bring us inside. So you know KK Veum Thie underpinning we know well is, you know, core to the multi clouds tragedy Red hat. And there's a lot that you've built on top of it. Speak, speak a little bit of some of the engineering relationships going on joint customers that you have. Ah, and kind of the value of supposed to, you know, write Hatton. General is your agnostic toe where lives, but there's got to be special work that gets done in a lot of places. >> Ralph has a Google. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Through the years, >> we've really done a lot of work to make sure that relative foundation works really well on G C P. So that's been a that's been a really consistent effort and whether it's around optimization for performance security element so that that provides a nice base for anybody who wants to move any work loader application from on crime over there from another cloud. And that's been great. And then the other maid, You know, we've also worked with them. Obviously, the upstream community dynamics have been really productive between Red Hat and Google, and Google has been one of the most productive and positive contributors and participants and open source. And so we worked together on probably ten or fifteen different projects, and it's a constant interaction between our upstream developers where we share ideas. And do you agree with this kind of >> S O Obviously, Cooper Netease is a big one. You know, when you see the list, it's it's Google and Red Hat right there. Give us a couple of examples of some of the other ones. I >> mean again, it's K B M is also a foundation on one that people kind of forget about that these days. But it still is a very pervasive technology and continuing to gain ground. You know, there's all there's the native stuff. There's the studio stuff in the AML, which is a whole fascinating category in my mind as well. >> I like history of kind of a real student of industry history, and so I like that you talk to folks who have been there and try to get it right. But there was a sort of this gestation period from two thousand six to two thousand nine and cloud Yeah, well, like you said, it's a book seller. And then even in the down turn, a lot of CFO said, Hey, cap backstop ex boom! And then come out of the downturn. And it was shadow I t around that two thousand nine time frame. But it was like, you say, a hyper visor discussion, you know, we're going to put VM where in in In our cloud and homogeneity had a lot of a lot of traditional companies fumbling with their cloud strategies. And and And he had the big data craze. And obviously open source was a huge part of that. And then containers, which, of course, have been around since Lennox. Yeah, yeah, and I guess Doctor Boom started go crazy. And now it's like this curve is reshaping with a I and sort of a new era of data thoughts on sort of the accuracy of that little historical narrative and and why that big uptick with containers? >> Well, a couple of things there won the data, the whole data evolution and this is a fascinating one. For many, many years. I'm gonna be there right after nineteen years. So I've seen a lot of the elements of that history and one of the constant questions we would always get sometimes from investor. Why don't you guys buy a database company? You know, years ago and we would, you know, we didn't always look at it. Or why aren't you guys doing a dupe distribution When that became more spark, etcetera. And we always looked at it and said, You know, we're a platform company and if we were to pick anyone database, it would only cover some percentage and there's so many, and then it just kind of upsets the other. So we've we've decided we're going to focus, not on the data layer. We're going to focus on the infrastructure and the application layer and work down from it and support the things underneath. So it's consistent now with the AML explosion, which, you know, we're who was a pioneer of AML. They've got some of the best services and then we've been doing a lot of work within video in the last two years to make sure that all the GP use wherever they're run. Hybrid private cloud on multiple clouds that those air enabled and Raylan enabled in open shift. Because what we see happening and in video does also is right now all the applications being developed by free mlr are written by extremely technical people. When you write to tense airflow and things like that, you kind of got to be able to write a C compiler level, but so were working with them to bring open shift to become the sort of more mass mainstream tool to develop. A I aml enable app because the value of having rail underneath open shift and is every piece of hardware in the world is supported right for when that every cloud And then when we had that GPU enablement open shift and middleware and our storage, everything inherits it. So that's the That's the most valuable to me. That's the most valuable piece of ah, real estate that we own in the industry is actually Ralph and then everything build upon that and >> its interest. What you said about the database, Of course, we're a long discussion about that this morning. You're right, though. Mike, you either have to be, like, really good at one thing, like a data stacks or Cassandra or a mongo. And there's a zillion others that I'm not mentioning or you got to do everything you know, like the cloud guys were doing out there. You know, every one of them's an operational, you know, uh, analytics already of s no sequel. I mean, one of each, you know, and then you have to partner with them. So I would imagine you looked at that as well. I said, How're we going to do all that >> right? And there's only, you know, there's so many competitive dynamics coming at us and, you know, for we've always been in the mode where we've been the little guy battling against the big guys, whoever, maybe whether it was or, you know, son, IBM and HP. Unix is in the early days. Oracle was our friend for a while. Then they became. Then they became a nen ime, you know, are not enemy but a competitor on the Lennox side. And the Amazon was early friend, and then, though they did their own limits. So there's a competitive, so that's that's normal operating model for us to us to have this, you know, big competitive dynamic with a partnering >> dynamic. You gotta win it in the marketplace that the customers say. Come on, guys. >> Right. We'Ll figure it out >> together, Figured out we talked earlier about hybrid cloud. We talked about multi cloud and some people those of the same thing. But I think they actually you know, different. Yeah, hybrid. You think of, you know, on prim and public and and hopefully some kind of level of integration and common data. Plain and control plan and multi cloud is sort of evolved from multi vendor. How do you guys look at it? Is multi cloud a strategy? How do you look at hybrid? >> Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's a simple It's simple in my mind, but I know the words. The terms get used by a lot of different people in different ways. You know, hybrid Cloud to me is just is just that straightforward. Being able to run something on premise have been able to run something in any in a public cloud and have it be somewhat consistent or share a bowl or movable and then multi cloud has been able to do that same thing with with multiple public clouds. And then there's a third variation on that is, you know, wanting to do an application that runs in both and shares information, which I think the world's you know, You saw that in the Google Antos announcement, where they're talking about their service running on the other two major public cloud. That's the first of any sizable company. I think that's going to be the norm because it's become more normal wherever the infrastructure is that a customer's using. If Google has a great service, they want to be able to tell the user toe, run it on their data there at there of choice. So, >> yeah, so, like you brought up Antos and at the core, it's it's g k. So it's the community's we've been talking about and, he said, worked with eight of us work for danger. But it's geeky on top of those public clouds. Maybe give us a little bit of, you know, compare contrast of that open shift. Does open ship lives in all of these environments, too, But they're not fully compatible. And how does that work? So are >> you and those which was announced yesterday. Two high level comments. I guess one is as we talked about the beginning. It's a validation of what our message has been. Its hybrid cloud is a value multi clouds of values. That's a productive element of that to help promote that vision And that concept also macro. We talked about all of it. It it puts us in a competitive environment more with Google than it was yesterday or two days ago. But again, that's that's our normal world way partnered with IBM and HP and competed against them on unit. We partner with that was partnered with Microsoft and compete with them, So that's normal. That said, you know, we believe are with open shift, having five plus years in market and over a thousand customers and very wide deployments and already been running in Google, Amazon and Microsoft Cloud already already there and solid and people doing really things with that. Plus being from a position of an independent software vendor, we think is a more valuable position for multi cloud than a single cloud vendor. So that's, you know, we welcome to the party in the sense, you know, going on prom, I say, Welcome to the jungle For all these public called companies going on from its, you know, it's It's a lot of complexity when you have to deal with, You know, American Express is Infrastructure, Bank of Hong Kong's infrastructure, Ford Motors infrastructure and it's a it's a >> right right here. You know Google before only had to run on Google servers in Google Data Center. Everything's very clean environment, one temperature on >> DH Enterprise customers have it a little different demands in terms of version ality and when the upgrade and and how long they let things like there's a lot of differences. >> But actually, there was one of the things Cory Quinn will. It was doing some analysis with us on there. And Google, for the most part, is if we decide to pull something, you've got kind of a one year window to do, you know? How does Red Hot look at that? >> I mean, and >> I explained, My >> guess is they'LL evolve over time as they get deeper in it. Or maybe they won't. Maybe they have a model where they think they will gain enough share and theirs. But I mean, we were built on on enterprise DNA on DH. We've evolved to cloud and hybrid multi cloud, DNA way love again like we love when people say I'm going to the cloud because when they say they're going to the cloud, it means they're doing new APs or they're modifying old apse. And we have a great shot of landing that business when they say we're doing something new >> Well, right, right. Even whether it's on Prem or in the public cloud, right? They're saying when they say we'LL go to the club, they talk about the cloud experience, right? And that's really what your strategy is to bring that cloud experience to wherever your data lives. Exactly. So talking about that multi cloud or a Romney cloud when we sort of look at the horses on the track and you say Okay, you got a V M. We're going after that. You've got you know, IBM and Red Hat going after that Now, Google sort of huge cloud provider, you know, doing that wherever you look. There's red hat now. Course I know you can't talk much about the IBM, you know, certainly integration, but IBM Executive once said to me still that we're like a recovering alcoholic. We learned our lesson from mainframe. We are open. We're committed to open, so we'LL see. But Red hat is everywhere, and your strategy presumably has to stay that sort of open new tia going last year >> I give to a couple examples of long ago. I mean, probably five. Six years ago when the college stuff was still more early. I had a to seo conference calls in one day, and one was with a big graphics, you know, Hollywood Graphics company, the CEO. After we explained all of our cloud stuff, you know, we had nine people on the call explaining all our cloud, and the guy said, Okay, because let me just tell you, right, that guy, something the biggest value bring to me is having relish my single point of sanity that I can move this stuff wherever I want. I just attach all my applications. I attached third party APS and everything, and then I could move it wherever we want. So realize that you're big, and I still think that's true. And then there was another large gaming company who was trying to decide to move forty thousand observers, from from their own cloud to a public cloud and how they were going to do it. And they had. They had to Do you know, the head of servers, a head of security, the head of databases, the head of network in the head of nine different functions there. And they're all in disagreement at the end. And the CEO said at the end of day, said, Mike, I've got like, a headache. I need some vodka and Tylenol now. So give me one simple piece of advice. How do I navigate this? I said, if you just write every app Terrell, Andrzej, boss. And this was before open shift. No matter >> where you want >> to run him, Raylan J. Boss will be there, and he said, Excellent advice. That's what we're doing. So there's something really beautiful about the simplicity of that that a lot of people overlooked, with all the hand waving of uber Netease and containers and fifty versions of Cooper Netease certified and you know, etcetera. It's it's ah, it's so I think there's something really beautiful about that. We see a lot of value in that single point of sanity and allowing people flexibility at you know, it's a pretty low cost to use. Relish your foundation >> over. Source. Hybrid Cloud Multi Cloud Omni Cloud All tail wins for Red Hat Mike will give you the final world where bumper sticker on Google Cloud next or any other final thoughts. >> To me, it's It's great to see thirty thousand people at this event. It's great to see Google getting more and more invested in the cloud and more and more invested in the enterprise about. I think they've had great success in a lot of non enterprise accounts, probably more so than the other clowns. And now they're coming this way. They've got great technology. We've our engineers love working with their engineers, and now we've got a more competitive dynamic. And like I said, welcome to the jungle. >> We got Red Hat Summit coming up stew. Writerly May is >> absolutely back in Beantown data. >> It's nice. Okay, I'll be in London there, >> right at Summit in Boston And May >> could deal. Mike, Thanks very much for coming. Thank you. It's great to see you. >> Good to see you. >> All right, everybody keep right there. Stew and I would back John Furry is also in the house watching the cube Google Cloud next twenty nineteen we'LL be right back

>> Announcer: Live from San Jose, it's theCUBE. Presenting Big Data Silicon Valley, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media and its ecosystem partners. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Lisa Martin with John Furrier. We are covering our second day of our event Big Data SV. We've had some great conversations, John, yesterday, today as well. Really looking at Big Data, digital transformation, Big Data, plus data science, lots of opportunity. We're excited to welcome back to theCUBE an alumni, Satyen Sangani, the co-founder and CEO of Alation. Welcome back! >> Thank you, it's wonderful to be here again. >> So you guys finish up your fiscal year end of December 2017, where in the first quarter of 2018. You guys had some really strong results, really strong momentum. >> Yeah. >> Tell us what's going on at Alation, how are you pulling this momentum through 2018. >> Well, I think we have had an enterprise focused business historically, because we solve a very complicated problem for very big enterprises, and so, in the last quarter we added customers like American Express, PepsiCo, Roche. And with huge expansions from our existing customers, some of whom, over the course of a year, I think went 12 X from an initial base. And so, we found some just incredible momentum in Q4 and for us that was a phenomenal cap to a great year. >> What about the platform you guys are doing? Can you just take a minute to explain what Alation does again just to refresh where you are on the product side? You mentioned some new accounts, some new use cases. >> Yeah. >> What's the update? Take a minute, talk about the update. >> Absolutely, so, you certainly know, John, but Alation's a data catalog and a data catalog essentially, you can think of it as Yelp or Amazon for data and information side of the enterprise. So if you think about how many different databases there are, how many different reports there are, how many different BI tools there are, how many different APIs there are, how many different algorithms there are, it's pretty dizzying for the average analyst. It's pretty dizzying for the average CIO. It's pretty dizzying for the average chief data officer. And particularly, inside of Fortune 500s where you have hundreds of thousands of databases. You have a situation where people just have too much signal or too much noise, not enough signal. And so what we do is we provide this Yelp for that information. You can come to Alation as a catalog. You can do a search on revenue 2017. You'll get all of the reports, all of the dashboards, all of the tables, all of the people that you might need to be able to find. And that gives you a single place of reference, so you can understand what you've got and what can answer your questions. >> What's interesting is, first of all, I love data. We're data driven, we're geeks on data. But when I start talking to folks that are outside the geek community or nerd community, you say data and they go, "Oh," because they cringe and they say, "Facebook." They see that data issues there. GDPR, data nightmare, where's the store, you got to manage it. And then, people are actually using data, so they're realizing how hard (laughs) it is. >> Yeah >> How much data do we have? So it's kind of like a tropic disillusionment, if you will. Now they got to get their hands on it. They've got to put it to work. >> Yeah. >> And they know that So, it's now becoming really hard (laughs) in their mind. This is business people. >> Yeah. >> They have data everywhere. How do you guys talk to that customer? Because, if you don't have quality data, if you don't have data you can trust, if you don't have the right people, it's hard to get it going. >> Yeah. >> How do you guys solve that problem and how do you talk to customers? >> So we talk a lot about data literacy. There is a lot of data in this world and that data is just emblematic of all of the stuff that's going on in this world. There's lots of systems, there's lots of complexity and the data, basically, just is about that complexity. Whether it's weblogs, or sensors, or the like. And so, you can either run away from that data, and say, "Look, I'm going to not, "I'm going to bury my head in the sand. "I'm going to be a business. "I'm just going to forget about that data stuff." And that's certainly a way to go. >> John: Yeah. >> It's a way to go away. >> Not a good outlook. >> I was going to say, is that a way of going out of business? >> Or, you can basically train, it's a human resources problem fundamentally. You've got to train your people to understand how to use data, to become data literate. And that's what our software is all about. That's what we're all about as a company. And so, we have a pretty high bar for what we think we do as a business and we're this far into that. Which is, we think we're training people to use data better. How do you learn to think scientifically? How do you go use data to make better decisions? How do you build a data driven culture? Those are the sorts of problems that I'm excited to work on. >> Alright, now take me through how you guys play out in an engagement with the customer. So okay, that's cool, you guys can come in, we're getting data literate, we understand we need to use data. Where are you guys winning? Where are you guys seeing some visibility, both in terms of the traction of the usage of the product, the use cases? Where is it kind of coming together for you guys? >> Yeah, so we literally, we have a mantra. I think any early stage company basically wins because they can focus on doing a couple of things really well. And for us, we basically do three things. We allow people to find data. We allow people to understand the data that they find. And we allow them to trust the data that they see. And so if I have a question, the first place I start is, typically, Google. I'll go there and I'll try to find whatever it is that I'm looking for. Maybe I'm looking for a Mediterranean restaurant on 1st Street in San Jose. If I'm going to go do that, I'm going to do that search and I'm going to find the thing that I'm looking for, and then I'm going to figure out, out of the possible options, which one do I want to go to. And then I'll figure out whether or not the one that has seven ratings is the one that I trust more than the one that has two. Well, data is no different. You're going to have to find the data sets. And inside of companies, there could be 20 different reports and there could be 20 different people who have information, and so you're going to trust those people through having context and understanding. >> So, trust, people, collaboration. You mentioned some big brands that you guys added towards the end of calendar 2017. How do you facilitate these conversations with maybe the chief data officer. As we know, in large enterprises, there's still a lot of ownership over data silos. >> Satyen: Yep. >> What is that conversation like, as you say on your website, "The first data catalog designed for collaboration"? How do you help these organizations as large as Coca-Cola understand where all the data are and enable the human resources to extract values, and find it, understand it, and trust it? >> Yeah, so we have a very simple hypothesis, which is, look, people fundamentally have questions. They're fundamentally curious. So, what you need to do as a chief data officer, as a chief information officer, is really figure out how to unlock that curiosity. Start with the most popular data sets. Start with the most popular systems. Start with the business people who have the most curiosity and the most demand for information. And oh, by the way, we can measure that. Which is the magical thing that we do. So we can come in and say, "Look, "we look at the logs inside of your systems to know "which people are using which data sets, "which sources are most popular, which areas are hot." Just like a social network might do. And so, just like you can say, "Okay, these are the trending restaurants." We can say, "These are the trending data sets." And that curiosity allows people to know, what data should I document first? What data should I make available first? What data do I improve the data quality over first? What data do I govern first? And so, in a world where you've got tons of signal, tons of systems, it's totally dizzying to figure out where you should start. But what we do is, we go these chief data officers and say, "Look, we can give you a tool and a catalyst so "that you know where to go, "what questions to answer, who to serve first." And you can use that to expand to other groups in the company. >> And this is interesting, a lot of people you mentioned social networks, use data to optimize for something, and in the case of Facebook, they they use my data to target ads for me. You're using data to actually say, "This is how people are using the data." So you're using data for data. (laughs) >> That's right. >> So you're saying-- >> Satyen: We're measuring how you can use data. >> And that's interesting because, I hear a lot of stories like, we bought a tool, we never used it. >> Yep. >> Or people didn't like the UI, just kind of falls on the side. You're looking at it and saying, "Let's get it out there and let's see who's using the data." And then, are you doubling down? What happens? Do I get a little star, do I get a reputation point, am I being flagged to HR as a power user? How are you guys treating that gamification in this way? It's interesting, I mean, what happens? Do I become like-- >> Yeah, so it's funny because, when you think about search, how do you figure out that something's good? So what Google did is, they came along and they've said, "We've got PageRank." What we're going to do is we're going to say, "The pages that are the best pages are the ones "that people link to most often." Well, we can do the same thing for data. The data sources that are the most useful ones are the people that are used most often. Now on top of that, you can say, "We're going to have experts put ratings," which we do. And you can say people can contribute knowledge and reviews of how this data set can be used. And people can contribute queries and reports on top of those data sets. And all of that gives you this really rich graph, this rich social graph, so that now when I look at something it doesn't look like Greek. It looks like, "Oh, well I know Lisa used this data set, "and then John used it "and so at least it must answer some questions "that are really intelligent about the media business "or about the software business. "And so that can be really useful for me "if I have no clue as to what I'm looking at." >> So the problem that you-- >> It's on how you demystify it through the social connections. >> So the problem that you solve, if what I hear you correctly, is that you make it easy to get the data. So there's some ease of use piece of it, >> Yep. >> cataloging. And then as you get people using it, this is where you take the data literacy and go into operationalizing data. >> Satyen: That's right. >> So this seems to be the challenge. So, if I'm a customer and I have a problem, the profile of your target customer or who your customers are, people who need to expand and operationalize data, how would you talk about it? >> Yeah, so it's really interesting. We talk about, one of our customers called us, sort of, the social network for nerds inside of an enterprise. And I think for me that's a compliment. (John laughing) But what I took from that, and when I explained the business of Alation, we start with those individuals who are data literate. The data scientists, the data engineers, the data stewards, the chief data officer. But those people have the knowledge and the context to then explain data to other people inside of that same institution. So in the same way that Facebook started with Harvard, and then went to the rest of the Ivies, and then went to the rest of the top 20 schools, and then ultimately to mom, and dad, and grandma, and grandpa. We're doing the exact same thing with data. We start with the folks that are data literate, we expand from there to a broader audience of people that don't necessarily have data in their titles, but have curiosity and questions. >> I like that on the curiosity side. You spent some time up at Strata Data. I'm curious, what are some of the things you're hearing from customers, maybe partners? Everyone used to talk about Hadoop, it was this big thing. And then there was a creation of data lakes, and swampiness, and all these things that are sort of becoming more complex in an organization. And with the rise of myriad data sources, the velocity, the volume, how do you help an enterprise understand and be able to catalog data from so many different sources? Is it that same principle that you just talked about in terms of, let's start with the lowest hanging fruit, start making the impact there and then grow it as we can? Or is an enterprise needs to be competitive and move really, really quickly? I guess, what's the process? >> How do you start? >> Right. >> What do people do? >> Yes! >> So it's interesting, what we find is multiple ways of starting with multiple different types of customers. And so, we have some customers that say, "Look, we've got a big, we've got Teradata, "and we've got some Hadoop, "and we've got some stuff on Amazon, "and we want to connect it all." And those customers do get started, and they start with hundreds of users, in some case, they start with thousands of users day one, and they just go Big Bang. And interestingly enough, we can get those customers enabled in matters of weeks or months to go do that. We have other customers that say, "Look, we're going to start with a team of 10 people "and we're going to see how it grows from there." And, we can accommodate either model or either approach. From our prospective, you just have to have the resources and the investment corresponding to what you're trying to do. If you're going to say, "Look, we're going to have, two dollars of budget, and we're not going to have the human resources, and the stewardship resources behind it." It's going to be hard to do the Big Bang. But if you're going to put the appropriate resources up behind it, you can do a lot of good. >> So, you can really facilitate the whole go big or go home approach, as as well as the let's start small think fast approach. >> That's right, and we always, actually ironically, recommend the latter. >> Let's start small, think fast, yeah. >> Because everybody's got a bigger appetite than they do the ability to execute. And what's great about the tool, and what I tell our customers and our employees all day long is, there's only metric I track. So year over year, for our business, we basically grow in accounts by net of churn by 55%. Year over year, and that's actually up from the prior year. And so from my perspective-- >> And what does that mean? >> So what that means is, the same customer gave us 55 cents more on the dollar than they did the prior year. Now that's best in class for most software businesses that I've heard. But what matters to me is not so much that growth rate in and of itself. What it means to me is this, that nobody's come along and says, "I've mastered my data. "I understand all of the information side of my company. "Every person knows everything there is to know." That's never been said. So if we're solving a problem where customers are saying, "Look, we get, and we can find, and understand, "and trust data, and we can do that better last year "than we did this year, and we can do it even more "with more people," we're going to be successful. >> What I like about what you're doing is, you're bringing an element of operationalizing data for literacy and for usage. But you're really bringing this notion of a humanizing element to it. Where you see it in security, you see it in emerging ecosystems. Where there's a community of data people who know how hard it is and was, and it seems to be getting easier. But the tsunami of new data coming in, IOT data, whatever, and new regulators like GDPR. These are all more surface area problems. But there's a community coming together. How have you guys seen your product create community? Have you seen any data on that, 'cause it sounds like, as people get networked together, the natural outcome of that is possibly usage you attract. But is there a community vibe that you're seeing? Is there an internal collaboration where they sit, they're having meet ups, they're having lunches. There's a social aspect in a human aspect. >> No, it's humanal, no, it's amazing. So in really subtle but really, really powerful ways. So one thing that we do for every single data source or every single report that we document, we just put who are the top users of this particular thing. So really subtly, day one, you're like, "I want to go find a report. "I don't even know "where to go inside of this really mysterious system". Postulation, you're able to say, "Well, I don't know where to go, but at least I can go call up John or Lisa," and say, "Hey, what is it that we know about this particular thing?" And I didn't have to know them. I just had to know that they had this report and they had this intelligence. So by just discovering people in who they are, you pick up on what people can know. >> So people of the new Google results, so you mentioned Google PageRank, which is web pages and relevance. You're taking a much more people approach to relevance. >> Satyen: That's right. >> To the data itself. >> That's right, and that builds community in very, very clear ways, because people have curiosity. Other people are in the mechanism why in which they satisfy that curiosity. And so that community builds automatically. >> They pay it forward, they know who to ask help for. >> That's right. >> Interesting. >> That's right. >> Last question, Satyen. The tag line, first data catalog designed for collaboration, is there a customer that comes to mind to you as really one that articulates that point exactly? Where Alation has come in and really kicked open the door, in terms of facilitating collaboration. >> Oh, absolutely. I was literally, this morning talking to one of our customers, Munich Reinsurance, largest reinsurance customer or company in the world. Their chief data officer said, "Look, three years ago, "we started with 10 people working on data. "Today, we've got hundreds. "Our aspiration is to get to thousands." We have three things that we do. One is, we actually discover insights. It's actually the smallest part of what we do. The second thing that we do is, we enable people to use data. And the third thing that we do is, drive a data driven culture. And for us, it's all about scaling knowledge, to centers in China, to centers in North America, to centers in Australia. And they've been doing that at scale. And they go to each of their people and they say, "Are you a data black belt, are you a data novice?" It's kind of like skiing. Are you blue diamond or a black diamond. >> Always ski in pairs (laughs) >> That's right. >> And they do ski in pairs. And what they end up ultimately doing is saying, "Look, we're going to train all of our workforce to become better, so that in three, 10 years, we're recognized as one of the most innovative insurance companies in the world." Three years ago, that was not the case. >> Process improvement at a whole other level. My final question for you is, for the folks watching or the folks that are going to watch this video, that could be a potential customer of yours, what are they feeling? If I'm the customer, what smoke signals am I seeing that say, I need to call Alation? What are some of the things that you've found that would tell a potential customer that they should be talkin' to you guys? >> Look, I think that they've got to throw out the old playbook. And this was a point that was made by some folks at a conference that I was at earlier this week. But they basically were saying, "Look, the DLNA's PlayBook was all about providing the right answer." Forget about that. Just allow people to ask the right questions. And if you let people's curiosity guide them, people are industrious, and ambitious, and innovative enough to go figure out what they need to go do. But if you see this as a world of control, where I'm going to just figure out what people should know and tell them what they're going to go know. that's going to be a pretty, a poor career to go choose because data's all about, sort of, freedom and innovation and understanding. And we're trying to push that along. >> Satyen, thanks so much for stopping by >> Thank you. >> and sharing how you guys are helping organizations, enterprises unlock data curiosity. We appreciate your time. >> I appreciate the time too. >> Thank you. >> And thanks John! >> And thank you. >> Thanks for co-hosting with me. For John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE live from our second day of coverage of our event Big Data SV. Stick around, we'll be right back with our next guest after a short break. 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