>> Announcer: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Hi everybody. Welcome back to Barcelona. We're here at the Fira Live, theCUBE's ongoing coverage of day two of MWC 23. Back in 2021 was my first Mobile World Congress. And you know what? It was actually quite an experience because there was nobody there. I talked to my friend, who's now my co-host, Chris Lewis about what to expect. He said, Dave, I don't think a lot of people are going to be there, but Danielle Royston is here and she's the CEO of Totoge. And that year when Erickson tapped out of its space she took out 60,000 square feet and built out Cloud City. If it weren't for Cloud City, there would've been no Mobile World Congress in June and July of 2021. DR is back. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> It's great to see you. >> Chris. Awesome to see you. >> Yeah, Chris. Yep. >> Good to be back. Yep. >> You guys remember the narrative back then. There was this lady running around this crazy lady that I met at at Google Cloud next saying >> Yeah. Yeah. >> the cloud's going to take over Telco. And everybody's like, well, this lady's nuts. The cloud's been leaning in, you know? >> Yeah. >> So what do you think, I mean, what's changed since since you first caused all those ripples? >> I mean, I have to say that I think that I caused a lot of change in the industry. I was talking to leaders over at AWS yesterday and they were like, we've never seen someone push like you have and change so much in a short period of time. And Telco moves slow. It's known for that. And they're like, you are pushing buttons and you're getting people to change and thank you and keep going. And so it's been great. It's awesome. >> Yeah. I mean, it was interesting, Chris, we heard on the keynotes we had Microsoft, Satya came in, Thomas Curian came in. There was no AWS. And now I asked CMO of GSMA about that. She goes, hey, we got a great relationship with it, AWS. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> But why do you think they weren't here? >> Well, they, I mean, they are here. >> Mean, not here. Why do you think they weren't profiled? >> They weren't on the keynote stage. >> But, you know, at AWS, a lot of the times they want to be the main thing. They want to be the main part of the show. They don't like sharing the limelight. I think they just didn't want be on the stage with the Google CLoud guys and the these other guys, what they're doing they're building out, they're doing so much stuff. As Danielle said, with Telcos change in the ecosystem which is what's happening with cloud. Cloud's making the Telcos think about what the next move is, how they fit in with the way other people do business. Right? So Telcos never used to have to listen to anybody. They only listened to themselves and they dictated the way things were done. They're very successful and made a lot of money but they're now having to open up they're having to leverage the cloud they're having to leverage the services that (indistinct words) and people out provide and they're changing the way they work. >> So, okay in 2021, we talked a lot about the cloud as a potential disruptor, and your whole premise was, look you got to lean into the cloud, or you're screwed. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> But the flip side of that is, if they lean into the cloud too much, they might be screwed. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> So what's that equilibrium? Have they been able to find it? Are you working with just the disruptors or how's that? >> No I think they're finding it right. So my talk at MWC 21 was all about the cloud is a double-edged sword, right? There's two sides to it, and you definitely need to proceed through it with caution, but also I don't know that you have a choice, right? I mean, the multicloud, you know is there another industry that spends more on CapEx than Telco? >> No. >> Right. The hyperscalers are doing it right. They spend, you know, easily approaching over a $100 billion in CapEx that rivals this industry. And so when you have a player like that an industry driving, you know and investing so much Telco, you're always complaining how everyone's riding your coattails. This is the opportunity to write someone else's coattails. So jump on, right? I think you don't have a choice especially if other Telco competitors are using hyperscalers and you don't, they're going to be left behind. >> So you advise these companies all the time, but >> I mean, the issue is they're all they're all using all the hyperscalers, right? So they're the multi, the multiple relationships. And as Danielle said, the multi-layer of relationship they're using the hyperscalers to change their own internal operational environments to become more IT-centric to move to that software centric Telco. And they're also then with the hyperscalers going to market in different ways sometimes with them, sometimes competing with them. What what it means from an analyst point of view is you're suddenly changing the dynamic of a market where we used to have nicely well defined markets previously. Now they're, everyone's in it together, you know, it's great. And, and it's making people change the way they think about services. What I, what I really hope it changes more than anything else is the way the customers at the end of the, at the end of the supply, the value chain think this is what we can get hold of this stuff. Now we can go into the network through the cloud and we can get those APIs. We can draw on the mechanisms we need to to run our personal lives, to run our business lives. And frankly, society as a whole. It's really exciting. >> Then your premise is basically you were saying they should ride on the top over the top of the cloud vendor. >> Yeah. Right? >> No. Okay. But don't they lose the, all the data if they do that? >> I don't know. I mean, I think the hyperscalers are not going to take their data, right? I mean, that would be a really really bad business move if Google Cloud and Azure and and AWS start to take over that, that data. >> But they can't take it. >> They can't. >> From regulate, from sovereignty and regulation. >> They can't because of regulation, but also just like business, right? If they started taking their data and like no enterprises would use them. So I think, I think the data is safe. I think you, obviously every country is different. You got to understand the different rules and regulations for data privacy and, and how you keep it. But I think as we look at the long term, right and we always talk about 10 and 20 years there's going to be a hyperscaler region in every country right? And there will be a way for every Telco to use it. I think their data will be safe. And I think it just, you're going to be able to stand on on the shoulders of someone else for once and use the building blocks of software that these guys provide to make better experiences for subscribers. >> You guys got to explain this to me because when I say data I'm not talking about, you know, personal information. I'm talking about all the telemetry, you know, all the all the, you know the plumbing. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> Data, which is- >> It will increasingly be shared because you need to share it in order to deliver the services in the streamline efficient way that needs to be deliver. >> Did I hear the CEO of Ericsson Wright where basically he said, we're going to charge developers for access to that data through APIs. >> What the Ericsson have done, obviously with the Vage acquisition is they want to get into APIs. So the idea is you're exposing features, quality policy on demand type features for example, or even pulling we still use that a lot of SMS, right? So pulling those out using those APIs. So it will be charged in some way. Whether- >> Man: Like Twitter's charging me for APIs, now I API calls, you >> Know what it is? I think it's Twilio. >> Man: Oh, okay. >> Right. >> Man: No, no, that's sure. >> There's no reason why telcos couldn't provide a Twilio like service itself. >> It's a horizontal play though right? >> Danielle: Correct because developers need to be charged by the API. >> But doesn't there need to be an industry standard to do that as- >> Well. I think that's what they just announced. >> Industry standard. >> Danielle: I think they just announced that. Yeah. Right now I haven't looked at that API set, right? >> There's like eight of them. >> There's eight of them. Twilio has, it's a start you got to start somewhere Dave. (crosstalk) >> And there's all, the TM forum is all the other standard >> Right? Eight is better than zero- >> Right? >> Haven't got plenty. >> I mean for an industry that didn't really understand APIs as a feature, as a product as a service, right? For Mats Granryd, the deputy general of GSMA to stand on the keynote stage and say we partnered and we're unveiling, right. Pay by the use APIs. I was for it. I was like, that is insane. >> I liked his keynote actually, because I thought he was going to talk about how many attendees and how much economic benefiting >> Danielle: We're super diverse. >> He said, I would usually talk about that and you know greening in the network by what you did talk about a little bit. But, but that's, that surprised me. >> Yeah. >> But I've seen in the enterprise this is not my space as, you know, you guys don't live this but I've seen Oracle try to get developers. IBM had to pay $35 billion trying to get for Red Hat to get developers, right? EMC used to have a thing called EMC code, failed. >> I mean they got to do something, right? So 4G they didn't really make the business case the ROI on the investment in the network. Here we are with 5G, same discussion is having where's the use case? How are we going to monetize and make the ROI on this massive investment? And now they're starting to talk about 6G. Same fricking problem is going to happen again. And so I think they need to start experimenting with new ideas. I don't know if it's going to work. I don't know if this new a API network gateway theme that Mats talked about yesterday will work. But they need to start unbundling that unlimited plan. They need to start charging people who are using the network more, more money. Those who are using it less, less. They need to figure this out. This is a crisis for them. >> Yeah our own CEO, I mean she basically said, Hey, I'm for net neutrality, but I want to be able to charge the people that are using it more and more >> To make a return on, on a capital. >> I mean it costs billions of dollars to build these networks, right? And they're valuable. We use them and we talked about this in Cloud City 21, right? The ability to start building better metaverses. And I know that's a buzzword and everyone hates it, but it's true. Like we're working from home. We need- there's got to be a better experience in Zoom in 2D, right? And you need a great network for that metaverse to be awesome. >> You do. But Danielle, you don't need cellular for doing that, do you? So the fixed network is as important. >> Sure. >> And we're at mobile worlds. But actually what we beginning to hear and Crystal Bren did say this exactly, it's about the comp the access is sort of irrelevant. Fixed is better because it's more the cost the return on investment is better from fiber. Mobile we're going to change every so many years because we're a new generation. But we need to get the mechanism in place to deliver that. I actually don't agree that we should everyone should pay differently for what they use. It's a universal service. We need it as individuals. We need to make it sustainable for every user. Let's just not go for the biggest user. It's not, it's not the way to build it. It won't work if you do that you'll crash the system if you do that. And, and the other thing which I disagree on it's not about standing on the shoulders and benefiting from what- It's about cooperating across all levels. The hyperscalers want to work with the telcos as much as the telcos want to work with the hyperscalers. There's a lot of synergy there. There's a lot of ways they can work together. It's not one or the other. >> But I think you're saying let the cloud guys do the heavy lifting and I'm - >> Yeah. >> Not at all. >> And so you don't think so because I feel like the telcos are really good at pipes. They've always been good at pipes. They're engineers. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> Are they hanging on to the to the connectivity or should they let that go and well and go toward the developer. >> I mean AWS had two announcements on the 21st a week before MWC. And one was that telco network builder. This is literally being able to deploy a network capability at AWS with keystrokes. >> As a managed service. >> Danielle: Correct. >> Yeah. >> And so I don't know how the telco world I felt the shock waves, right? I was like, whoa, that seems really big. Because they're taking something that previously was like bread and butter. This is what differentiates each telco and now they've standardized it and made it super easy so anyone can do it. Now do I think the five nines of super crazy hardcore network criteria will be built on AWS this way? Probably not, but no >> It's not, it's not end twin. So you can't, no. >> Right. But private networks could be built with this pretty easily, right? And so telcos that don't have as much funding, right. Smaller, more experiments. I think it's going to change the way we think about building networks in telcos >> And those smaller telcos I think are going to be more developer friendly. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> They're going to have business models that invite those developers in. And that's, it's the disruption's going to come from the ISVs and the workloads that are on top of that. >> Well certainly what Dish is trying to do, right? Dish is trying to build a- they launched it reinvent a developer experience. >> Dave: Yeah. >> Right. Built around their network and you know, again I don't know, they were not part of this group that designed these eight APIs but I'm sure they're looking with great intent on what does this mean for them. They'll probably adopt them because they want people to consume the network as APIs. That's their whole thing that Mark Roanne is trying to do. >> Okay, and then they're doing open ran. But is it- they're not really cons- They're not as concerned as Rakuten with the reliability and is that the right play? >> In this discussion? Open RAN is not an issue. It really is irrelevant. It's relevant for the longer term future of the industry by dis aggregating and being able to share, especially ran sharing, for example, in the short term in rural environments. But we'll see some of that happening and it will change, but it will also influence the way the other, the existing ran providers build their services and offer their value. Look you got to remember in the relationship between the equipment providers and the telcos are very dramatically. Whether it's Ericson, NOKIA, Samsung, Huawei, whoever. So those relations really, and the managed services element to that depends on what skills people have in-house within the telco and what service they're trying to deliver. So there's never one size fits all in this industry. >> You're very balanced in your analysis and I appreciate that. >> I try to be. >> But I am not. (chuckles) >> So when Dr went off, this is my question. When Dr went off a couple years ago on the cloud's going to take over the world, you were skeptical. You gave a approach. Have you? >> I still am. >> Have you moderated your thoughts on that or- >> I believe the telecom industry is is a very strong industry. It's my industry of course I love it. But the relationship it is developing much different relationships with the ecosystem players around it. You mentioned developers, you mentioned the cloud players the equipment guys are changing there's so many moving parts to build the telco of the future that every country needs a very strong telco environment to be able to support the site as a whole. People individuals so- >> Well I think two years ago we were talking about should they or shouldn't they, and now it's an inevitability. >> I don't think we were Danielle. >> All using the hyperscalers. >> We were always going to need to transform the telcos from the conservative environments in which they developed. And they've had control of everything in order to reduce if they get no extra revenue at all, reducing the cost they've got to go on a cloud migration path to do that. >> Amenable. >> Has it been harder than you thought? >> It's been easier than I thought. >> You think it's gone faster than >> It's gone way faster than I thought. I mean pushing on this flywheel I thought for sure it would take five to 10 years it is moving. I mean the maths comp thing the AWS announcements last week they're putting in hyperscalers in Saudi Arabia which is probably one of the most sort of data private places in the world. It's happening really fast. >> What Azure's doing? >> I feel like I can't even go to sleep. Because I got to keep up with it. It's crazy. >> Guys. >> This is awesome. >> So awesome having you back on. >> Yeah. >> Chris, thanks for co-hosting. Appreciate you stay here. >> Yep. >> Danielle, amazing. We'll see you. >> See you soon. >> A lot of action here. We're going to come out >> Great. >> Check out your venue. >> Yeah the Togi buses that are outside. >> The big buses. You got a great setup there. We're going to see you on Wednesday. Thanks again. >> Awesome. Thanks. >> All right. Keep it right there. We'll be back to wrap up day two from MWC 23 on theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(upbeat instrumental music) >> TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (uplifting instrumental music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome to Barcelona, Spain. It's theCUBE Live at MWC '23. I'm Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante, our co-founder, our co-CEO of theCUBE, you know him, you love him. He's here as my co-host. Dave, we have a great couple of guests here to break down day one keynote. Lots of meat. I can't wait to be part of this conversation. Chris Lewis joins us, the founder and MD of Lewis Insight. And Sarbjeet Johal, one of you know him as well. He's a Cube contributor, cloud architect. Guys, welcome to the program. Thank you so much for joining Dave and me today. >> Lovely to be here. >> Thank you. >> Chris, I want to start with you. You have covered all aspects of global telecoms industries over 30 years working as an analyst. Talk about the evolution of the telecom industry that you've witnessed, and what were some of the things you heard in the keynote that excite you about the direction it's going? >> Well, as ever, MWC, there's no lack of glitz and glamour, but it's the underlying issues of the industry that are really at stake here. There's not a lot of new revenue coming into the telecom providers, but there's a lot of adjustment, readjustment of the underlying operational environment. And also, really importantly, what came out of the keynotes is the willingness and the necessity to really engage with the API community, with the developer community, people who traditionally, telecoms would never have even touched. So they're sorting out their own house, they're cleaning their own stables, getting the cost base down, but they're also now realizing they've got to engage with all the other parties. There's a lot of cloud providers here, there's a lot of other people from outside so they're realizing they cannot do it all themselves. It's quite a tough lesson for a very conservative, inward looking industry, right? So should we be spending all this money and all this glitz and glamour of MWC and all be here, or should would be out there really building for the future and making sure the services are right for yours and my needs in a business and personal lives? So a lot of new changes, a lot of realization of what's going on outside, but underlying it, we've just got to get this right this time. >> And it feels like that monetization is front and center. You mentioned developers, we've got to work with developers, but I'm hearing the latest keynote from the Ericsson CEOs, we're going to monetize through those APIs, we're going to charge the developers. I mean, first of all, Chris, am I getting that right? And Sarbjeet, as somebody who's close to the developer community, is that the right way to build bridges? But Chris, are we getting that right? >> Well, let's take the first steps first. So, Ericsson, of course, acquired Vonage, which is a massive API business so they want to make money. They expect to make money by bringing that into the mainstream telecom community. Now, whether it's the developers who pay for it, or let's face it, we are moving into a situation as the telco moves into a techco model where the techco means they're going to be selling bits of the technology to developer guys and to other application developers. So when he says he needs to charge other people for it, it's the way in which people reach in and will take going through those open APIs like the open gateway announced today, but also the way they'll reach in and take things like network slicing. So we're opening up the telecom community, the treasure chest, if you like, where developers' applications and other third parties can come in and take those chunks of technology and build them into their services. This is a complete change from the old telecom industry where everybody used to come and you say, "all right, this is my product, you've got to buy it and you're going to pay me a lot of money for it." So we are looking at a more flexible environment where the other parties can take those chunks. And we know we want collectivity built into our financial applications, into our government applications, everything, into the future of the metaverse, whatever it may be. But it requires that change in attitude of the telcos. And they do need more money 'cause they've said, the baseline of revenue is pretty static, there's not a lot of growth in there so they're looking for new revenues. It's in a B2B2X time model. And it's probably the middle man's going to pay for it rather than the customer. >> But the techco model, Sarbjeet, it looks like the telcos are getting their money on their way in. The techco company model's to get them on their way out like the app store. Go build something of value, build some kind of app or data product, and then when it takes off, we'll take a piece of the action. What are your thoughts from a developer perspective about how the telcos are approaching it? >> Yeah, I think before we came here, like I said, I did some tweets on this, that we talk about all kind of developers, like there's game developers and front end, back end, and they're all talking about like what they're building on top of cloud, but nowhere you will hear the term "telco developer," there's no API from telcos given to the developers to build IoT solutions on top of it because telco as an IoT, I think is a good sort of hand in hand there. And edge computing as well. The glimmer of hope, if you will, for telcos is the edge computing, I believe. And even in edge, I predicted, I said that many times that cloud players will dominate that market with the private 5G. You know that story, right? >> We're going to talk about that. (laughs) >> The key is this, that if you see in general where the population lives, in metros, right? That's where the world population is like flocking to and we have cloud providers covering the local zones with local like heavy duty presence from the big cloud providers and then these telcos are getting sidetracked by that. Even the V2X in cars moving the autonomous cars and all that, even in that space, telcos are getting sidetracked in many ways. What telcos have to do is to join the forces, build some standards, if not standards, some consortium sort of. They're trying to do that with the open gateway here, they have only eight APIs. And it's 2023, eight APIs is nothing, right? (laughs) So they should have started this 10 years back, I think. So, yeah, I think to entice the developers, developers need the employability, we need to train them, we need to show them some light that hey, you can build a lot on top of it. If you tell developers they can develop two things or five things, nobody will come. >> So, Chris, the cloud will dominate the edge. So A, do you buy it? B, the telcos obviously are acting like that might happen. >> Do you know I love people when they've got their heads in the clouds. (all laugh) And you're right in so many ways, but if you flip it around and think about how the customers think about this, business customers and consumers, they don't care about all this background shenanigans going on, do they? >> Lisa: No. >> So I think one of the problems we have is that this is a new territory and whether you call it the edge or whatever you call it, what we need there is we need connectivity, we need security, we need storage, we need compute, we need analytics, and we need applications. And are any of those more important than the others? It's the collective that actually drives the real value there. So we need all those things together. And of course, the people who represented at this show, whether it's the cloud guys, the telcos, the Nokia, the Ericssons of this world, they all own little bits of that. So that's why they're all talking partnerships because they need the combination, they cannot do it on their own. The cloud guys can't do it on their own. >> Well, the cloud guys own all of those things that you just talked about though. (all laugh) >> Well, they don't own the last bit of connectivity, do they? They don't own the access. >> Right, exactly. That's the one thing they don't own. So, okay, we're back to pipes, right? We're back to charging for connectivity- >> Pipes are very valuable things, right? >> Yeah, for sure. >> Never underestimate pipes. I don't know about where you live, plumbers make a lot of money where I live- >> I don't underestimate them but I'm saying can the telcos charge for more than that or are the cloud guys going to mop up the storage, the analytics, the compute, and the apps? >> They may mop it up, but I think what the telcos are doing and we've seen a lot of it here already, is they are working with all those major cloud guys already. So is it an unequal relationship? The cloud guys are global, massive global scale, the telcos are fundamentally national operators. >> Yep. >> Some have a little bit of regional, nobody has global scale. So who stitches it all together? >> Dave: Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. >> Absolutely. >> I know that saying never gets old. It's true. Well, Sarbjeet, one of the things that you tweeted about, I didn't get to see the keynote but I was looking at your tweets. 46% of telcos think they won't make it to the next decade. That's a big number. Did that surprise you? >> No, actually it didn't surprise me because the competition is like closing in on them and the telcos are competing with telcos as well and the telcos are competing with cloud providers on the other side, right? So the smaller ones are getting squeezed. It's the bigger players, they can hook up the newer platforms, I think they will survive. It's like that part is like any other industry, if you will. But the key is here, I think why the pain points were sort of described on the main stage is that they're crying out loud to tell the big tech cloud providers that "hey, you pay your fair share," like we talked, right? You are not paying, you're generating so much content which reverses our networks and you are not paying for it. So they are not able to recoup the cost of laying down their networks. By the way, one thing actually I want to mention is that they said the cloud needs earth. The cloud and earth, it's like there's no physical need to cloud, you know that, right? So like, I think it's the other way around. I think the earth needs the cloud because I'm a cloud guy. (Sarbjeet and Lisa laugh) >> I think you need each other, right? >> I think so too. >> They need each other. When they said cloud needs earth, right? I think they're still in denial that the cloud is a big force. They have to partner. When you can't compete with somebody, what do you do? Partner with them. >> Chris, this is your world. Are they in denial? >> No, I think they're waking up to the pragmatism of the situation. >> Yeah. >> They're building... As we said, most of the telcos, you find have relationships with the cloud guys, I think you're right about the industry. I mean, do you think what's happened since US was '96, the big telecom act when we started breaking up all the big telcos and we had lots of competition came in, we're seeing the signs that we might start to aggregate them back up together again. So it's been an interesting experiment for like 30 years, hasn't it too? >> It made the US less competitive, I would argue, but carry on. >> Yes, I think it's true. And Europe is maybe too competitive and therefore, it's not driven the investment needed. And by the way, it's not just mobile, it's fixed as well. You saw the Orange CEO was talking about the her investment and the massive fiber investments way ahead of many other countries, way ahead of the UK or Germany. We need that fiber in the ground to carry all your cloud traffic to do this. So there is a scale issue, there is a competition issue, but the telcos are very much aware of it. They need the cloud, by the way, to improve their operational environments as well, to change that whole old IT environment to deliver you and I better service. So no, it absolutely is changing. And they're getting scale, but they're fundamentally offering the basic product, you call it pipes, I'll just say they're offering broadband to you and I and the business community. But they're stepping on dangerous ground, I think, when saying they want to charge the over the top guys for all the traffic they use. Those over the top guys now build a lot of the global networks, the backbone submarine network. They're putting a lot of money into it, and by giving us endless data for our individual usage, that cat is out the bag, I think to a large extent. >> Yeah. And Orange CEO basically said that, that they're not paying their fair share. I'm for net neutrality but the governments are going to have to fund this unless you let us charge the OTT. >> Well, I mean, we could of course renationalize. Where would that take us? (Dave laughs) That would make MWC very interesting next year, wouldn't it? To renationalize it. So, no, I think you've got to be careful what we wish for here. Creating the absolute clear product that is required to underpin all of these activities, whether it's IoT or whether it's cloud delivery or whether it's just our own communication stuff, delivering that absolutely ubiquitously high quality for business and for consumer is what we have to do. And telcos have been too conservative in the past. >> I think they need to get together and create standards around... I think they have a big opportunity. We know that the clouds are being built in silos, right? So there's Azure stack, there's AWS and there's Google. And those are three main ones and a few others, right? So that we are fighting... On the cloud side, what we are fighting is the multicloud. How do we consume that multicloud without having standards? So if these people get together and create some standards around IoT and edge computing sort of area, people will flock to them to say, "we will use you guys, your API, we don't care behind the scenes if you use AWS or Google Cloud or Azure, we will come to you." So market, actually is looking for that solution. I think it's an opportunity for these guys, for telcos. But the problem with telcos is they're nationalized, as you said Chris versus the cloud guys are still kind of national in a way, but they're global corporations. And some of the telcos are global corporations as well, BT covers so many countries and TD covers so many... DT is in US as well, so they're all over the place. >> But you know what's interesting is that the TM forum, which is one of the industry associations, they've had an open digital architecture framework for quite some years now. Google had joined that some years ago, Azure in there, AWS just joined it a couple of weeks ago. So when people said this morning, why isn't AWS on the keynote? They don't like sharing the limelight, do they? But they're getting very much in bed with the telco. So I think you'll see the marriage. And in fact, there's a really interesting statement, if you look at the IoT you mentioned, Bosch and Nokia have been working together 'cause they said, the problem we've got, you've got a connectivity network on one hand, you've got the sensor network on the other hand, you're trying to merge them together, it's a nightmare. So we are finally seeing those sort of groups talking to each other. So I think the standards are coming, the cooperation is coming, partnerships are coming, but it means that the telco can't dominate the sector like it used to. It's got to play ball with everybody else. >> I think they have to work with the regulators as well to loosen the regulation. Or you said before we started this segment, you used Chris, the analogy of sports, right? In sports, when you're playing fiercely, you commit the fouls and then ask for ref to blow the whistle. You're now looking at the ref all the time. The telcos are looking at the ref all the time. >> Dave: Yeah, can I do this? Can I do that? Is this a fair move? >> They should be looking for the space in front of the opposition. >> Yeah, they should be just on attack mode and commit these fouls, if you will, and then ask for forgiveness then- >> What do you make of that AWS not you there- >> Well, Chris just made a great point that they don't like to share the limelight 'cause I thought it was very obvious that we had Google Cloud, we had Microsoft there on day one of this 80,000 person event. A lot of people back from COVID and they weren't there. But Chris, you brought up a great point that kind of made me think, maybe you're right. Maybe they're in the afternoon keynote, they want their own time- >> You think GSMA invited them? >> I imagine so. You'd have to ask GSMA. >> I would think so. >> Get Max on here and ask that. >> I'm going to ask them, I will. >> But no, and they don't like it because I think the misconception, by the way, is that everyone says, "oh, it's AWS, it's Google Cloud and it's Azure." They're not all the same business by any stretch of the imagination. AWS has been doing loads of great work, they've been launching private network stuff over the last couple of weeks. Really interesting. Google's been playing catch up. We know that they came in readily late to the market. And Azure, they've all got slightly different angles on it. So perhaps it just wasn't right for AWS and the way they wanted to pitch things so they don't have to be there, do they? >> That's a good point. >> But the industry needs them there, that's the number one cloud. >> Dave, they're there working with the industry. >> Yeah, of course. >> They don't have to be on the keynote stage. And in fact, you think about this show and you mentioned the 80,000 people, the activity going on around in all these massive areas they're in, it's fantastic. That's where the business is done. The business isn't done up on the keynote stage. >> That's why there's the glitz and the glamour, Chris. (all laugh) >> Yeah. It's not glitz, it's espresso. It's not glamour anymore, it's just espresso. >> We need the espresso. >> Yeah. >> I think another thing is that it's interesting how an average European sees the tech market and an average North American, especially you from US, you have to see the market. Here, people are more like process oriented and they want the rules of the road already established before they can take a step- >> Chris: That's because it's your pension in the North American- >> Exactly. So unions are there and the more employee rights and everything, you can't fire people easily here or in Germany or most of the Europe is like that with the exception of UK. >> Well, but it's like I said, that Silicone Valley gets their money on the way out, you know? And that's how they do it, that's how they think it. And they don't... They ask for forgiveness. I think the east coast is more close to Europe, but in the EU, highly regulated, really focused on lifetime employment, things like that. >> But Dave, the issue is the telecom industry is brilliant, right? We keep paying every month whatever we do with it. >> It's a great business, to your point- >> It's a brilliant business model. >> Dave: It's fantastic. >> So it's about then getting the structure right behind it. And you know, we've seen a lot of stratification where people are selling off towers, Orange haven't sold their towers off, they made a big point about that. Others are selling their towers off. Some people are selling off their underlying network, Telecom Italia talking about KKR buying the whole underlying network. It's like what do you want to be in control of? It's a great business. >> But that's why they complain so much is that they're having to sell their assets because of the onerous CapEx requirements, right? >> Yeah, they've had it good, right? And dare I say, perhaps they've not planned well enough for the future. >> They're trying to protect their past from the future. I mean, that's... >> Actually, look at the... Every "n" number of years, there's a new faster network. They have to dig the ground, they have to put the fiber, they have to put this. Now, there are so many booths showing 6G now, we are not even done with 5G yet, now the next 6G you know, like then- >> 10G's coming- >> 10G, that's a different market. (Dave laughs) >> Actually, they're bogged down by the innovation, I think. >> And the generational thing is really important because we're planning for 6G in all sorts of good ways but actually what we use in our daily lives, we've gone through the barrier, we've got enough to do that. So 4G gives us enough, the fiber in the ground or even old copper gives us enough. So the question is, what are we willing to pay for more than that basic connectivity? And the answer to your point, Dave, is not a lot, right? So therefore, that's why the emphasis is on the business market on that B2B and B2B2X. >> But we'll pay for Netflix all day long. >> All day long. (all laugh) >> The one thing Chris, I don't know, I want to know your viewpoints and we have talked in the past as well, there's absence of think tanks in tech, right? So we have think tanks on the foreign policy and economic policy in every country, and we have global think tanks, but tech is becoming a huge part of the economy, global economy as well as national economies, right? But we don't have think tanks on like policy around tech. For example, this 4G is good for a lot of use cases. Then 5G is good for smaller number of use cases. And then 6G will be like, fewer people need 6G for example. Why can't we have sort of those kind of entities dictating those kind of like, okay, is this a wiser way to go about it? >> Lina Khan wants to. She wants to break up big tech- >> You're too young to remember but the IT used to have a show every four years in Geneva, there were standards around there. So I think there are bodies. I think the balance of power obviously has gone from the telecom to the west coast to the IT markets. And it's changing the balance about, it moves more quickly, right? Telecoms has never moved quickly enough. I think there is hope by the way, that telecoms now that we are moving to more softwarized environment, and God forbid, we're moving into CICD in the telecom world, right? Which is a massive change, but I think there's hopes for it to change. The mentality is changing, the culture is changing, but to change those old structured organizations from the British telecom or the France telecom into the modern world, it's a hell of a long journey. It's not an overnight journey at all. >> Well, of course the theme of the event is velocity. >> Yeah, I know that. >> And it's been interesting sitting here with the three of you talking about from a historic perspective, how slow and molasseslike telecom has been. They don't have a choice anymore. As consumers, we have this expectation we're going to get anything we want on our mobile device, 24 by seven. We don't care about how the sausage is made, we just want the end result. So do you really think, and we're only on day one guys... And Chris we'll start with you. Is the theme really velocity? Is it disruption? Are they able to move faster? >> Actually, I think invisibility is the real answer. (Lisa laughs) We want communication to be invisible, right? >> Absolutely. >> We want it to work. When we switch our phones on, we want it to work and we want to... Well, they're not even phones anymore, are they really? I mean that's the... So no, velocity, we've got... There is momentum in the industry, there's no doubt about that. The cloud guys coming in, making telecoms think about the way they run their own business, where they meet, that collision point on the edges you talked about Sarbjeet. We do have velocity, we've got momentum. There's so many interested parties. The way I think of this is that the telecom industry used to be inward looking, just design its own technology and then expect everyone else to dance to our tune. We're now flipping that 180 degrees and we are now having to work with all the different outside forces shaping us. Whether it's devices, whether it's smart cities, governments, the hosting guys, the Equinoxis, all these things. So everyone wants a piece of this telecom world so we've got to make ourselves more open. That's why you get in a more open environment. >> But you did... I just want to bring back a point you made during COVID, which was when everybody switched to work from home, started using their landlines again, telcos had to respond and nothing broke. I mean, it was pretty amazing. >> Chris: It did a good job. >> It was kind of invisible. So, props to the telcos for making that happen. >> They did a great job. >> So it really did. Now, okay, what have you done for me lately? So now they've got to deal with the future and they're talking monetization. But to me, monetization is all about data and not necessarily just the network data. Yeah, they can sell that 'cause they own that but what kind of incremental value are they going to create for the consumers that... >> Yeah, actually that's a problem. I think the problem is that they have been strangled by the regulation for a long time and they cannot look at their data. It's a lot more similar to the FinTech world, right? I used to work at Visa. And then Visa, we did trillion dollars in transactions in '96. Like we moved so much money around, but we couldn't look at these things, right? So yeah, I think regulation is a problem that holds you back, it's the antithesis of velocity, it slows you down. >> But data means everything, doesn't it? I mean, it means everything and nothing. So I think the challenge here is what data do the telcos have that is useful, valuable to me, right? So in the home environment, the fact that my broadband provider says, oh, by the way, you've got 20 gadgets on that network and 20 on that one... That's great, tell me what's on there. I probably don't know what's taking all my valuable bandwidth up. So I think there's security wrapped around that, telling me the way I'm using it if I'm getting the best out of my service. >> You pay for that? >> No, I'm saying they don't do it yet. I think- >> But would you pay for that? >> I think I would, yeah. >> Would you pay a lot for that? I would expect it to be there as part of my dashboard for my monthly fee. They're already charging me enough. >> Well, that's fine, but you pay a lot more in North America than I do in Europe, right? >> Yeah, no, that's true. >> You're really overpaying over there, right? >> Way overpaying. >> So, actually everybody's looking at these devices, right? So this is a radio operated device basically, right? And then why couldn't they benefit from this? This is like we need to like double click on this like 10 times to find out why telcos failed to leverage this device, right? But I think the problem is their reliance on regulations and their being close to the national sort of governments and local bodies and authorities, right? And in some countries, these telcos are totally controlled in very authoritarian ways, right? It's not like open, like in the west, most of the west. Like the world is bigger than five, six countries and we know that, right? But we end up talking about the major economies most of the time. >> Dave: Always. >> Chris: We have a topic we want to hit on. >> We do have a topic. Our last topic, Chris, it's for you. You guys have done an amazing job for the last 25 minutes talking about the industry, where it's going, the evolution. But Chris, you're registered blind throughout your career. You're a leading user of assertive technologies. Talk about diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility, some of the things you're doing there. >> Well, we should have had 25 minutes on that and five minutes on- (all laugh) >> Lisa: You'll have to come back. >> Really interesting. So I've been looking at it. You're quite right, I've been using accessible technology on my iPhone and on my laptop for 10, 20 years now. It's amazing. And what I'm trying to get across to the industry is to think about inclusive design from day one. When you're designing an app or you're designing a service, make sure you... And telecom's a great example. In fact, there's quite a lot of sign language around here this week. If you look at all the events written, good to see that coming in. Obviously, no use to me whatsoever, but good for the hearing impaired, which by the way is the biggest category of disability in the world. Biggest chunk is hearing impaired, then vision impaired, and then cognitive and then physical. And therefore, whenever you're designing any service, my call to arms to people is think about how that's going to be used and how a blind person might use it or how a deaf person or someone with physical issues or any cognitive issues might use it. And a great example, the GSMA and I have been talking about the app they use for getting into the venue here. I downloaded it. I got the app downloaded and I'm calling my guys going, where's my badge? And he said, "it's top left." And because I work with a screen reader, they hadn't tagged it properly so I couldn't actually open my badge on my own. Now, they changed it overnight so it worked this morning, which is fantastic work by Trevor and the team. But it's those things that if you don't build it in from scratch, you really frustrate a whole group of users. And if you think about it, people with disabilities are excluded from so many services if they can't see the screen or they can't hear it. But it's also the elderly community who don't find it easy to get access to things. Smart speakers have been a real blessing in that respect 'cause you can now talk to that thing and it starts talking back to you. And then there's the people who can't afford it so we need to come down market. This event is about launching these thousand dollars plus devices. Come on, we need below a hundred dollars devices to get to the real mass market and get the next billion people in and then to educate people how to use it. And I think to go back to your previous point, I think governments are starting to realize how important this is about building the community within the countries. You've got some massive projects like NEOM in Saudi Arabia. If you have a look at that, if you get a chance, a fantastic development in the desert where they're building a new city from scratch and they're building it so anyone and everyone can get access to it. So in the past, it was all done very much by individual disability. So I used to use some very expensive, clunky blind tech stuff. I'm now using mostly mainstream. But my call to answer to say is, make sure when you develop an app, it's accessible, anyone can use it, you can talk to it, you can get whatever access you need and it will make all of our lives better. So as we age and hearing starts to go and sight starts to go and dexterity starts to go, then those things become very useful for everybody. >> That's a great point and what a great champion they have in you. Chris, Sarbjeet, Dave, thank you so much for kicking things off, analyzing day one keynote, the ecosystem day, talking about what velocity actually means, where we really are. We're going to have to have you guys back 'cause as you know, we can keep going, but we are out of time. But thank you. >> Pleasure. >> We had a very spirited, lively conversation. >> Thanks, Dave. >> Thank you very much. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE live in Barcelona, Spain at MWC '23. We'll be back after a short break. See you soon. (uplifting instrumental music)

>> From around the globe, it's the Cube! With digital coverage of IBM Think 2021, brought to you by IBM. >> Well, welcome back to the Cube and our IBM Think initiative and today a fascinating subject with a dramatic shift that's going on in the Middle East and specifically in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. There is a significant partnership that has just recently been launched called SARIE, which is the Saudi Arabian real interbank express. And it basically is a, a dramatic move to make the kingdom cashless - and IBM is very much at the center of that. With me to talk about that role is Elhadji Cisse who at IBM is the MEA head of payments which of course is middle East and Africa. Elhadji, good to have you with us all the way from Dubai. Good to see you today. >> The pleasure's all mine. >> Good. Well, thank you for joining us. And let's, let's talk about this initiative. First off, the problem or at least the challenge that IBM and its partners are trying to solve and now how you're going about it. So let's just paint that 30,000 foot level, if you will, then we'll dive in a little deeper. >> All right. So if you look at the countries, the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and in much of the region, Middle East and Africa, we have very cash driven society. And this provides lots of challenges in terms of government point of view, businesses' point of view. And even the consumer point of view. The cash transaction is becoming less and less traceable. You are less likely to see where the cash is going, where the cash is coming from. Maintaining the cash also is becoming more and more expensive in terms of security, in terms of recycling the cash, holding the cash, transacting the cash, all of that has to be taken into consideration. And the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, with the help of the crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman, has a visionary vision 2030 to be put in place that will enable them to revolutionize the entire financial sector. There's a segment within that called the FSDB, the financial sector development program. And that program, within that program, they have a goal to develop a digital platform that will enhance and enable the society to go to a more cashless society and also help define a full end to end digital environment for the, for the kingdom. >> So when you think about the scale of this, I mean it's almost mindblowing in a way, because in many cases we've been talking about with various of your colleagues at IBM, different initiatives that involve an organization or involve maybe a more regional partnership or something like that. This is national, right? This is every banking institution in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Businesses, government entities. I mean, if you would, share with me some of the complexity of this in terms of a project of that scale and, and trying to bring together these disparate systems that all have a different kind of legacy overhang, if you will, right. And now you're trying to modernize everybody moving towards the same goal in 2030, I think it's mind blowing. >> Yeah, it is. It is, John. And if you look at the complexity, if I may speak a little bit about how complex it is, let's start with the team. The team has been a full diverse team. We have 10 different nationalities. We have team from America, Canada, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE, China, UK, Pakistan, India. I mean, you name it. We have the whole globe pretty much. Every single region, Australia also was there. We had the team of that magnitude. In addition to that, as you rightfully stated, we're not building a system for a particular company or particular industry. It is for the entire country, all the banks of Saudi Arabia: the 11 national banks and the 12 additional international banks that are there. The global corporates, such as the Telco corporation, the oil corporation that are there. All of them needs to be onboarded into this including the 17 million or 20 some million population that are there. Now, the keys to this that we have is that our partners, MasterCard and Saudi payments, we have mandated ourself not to divide ourselves into three teams. We have to go with this as one single team. This was the motto of the project. This is what made us successful. We didn't differentiate between IBM, MasterCard, or Saudi payment. We all went together and addressed every single challenge as a team with the three different layers. And that's what helped us become successful with this engagement. >> So let's look at the initiatives specifically then in terms of the technology that's driving this. We talk a lot about the digital transformation that's occurring in the world. And again, it's kind of a catch all phrase, but this truly is a almost a magical transformation that you're going through. So how did you address the various workloads, what's going to be done where and how, and by whom. And then this integration that has to go on with that, not only are you centralizing a lot of these functions but you also have to distribute them to institutions across the kingdom. So if you would share a little bit of insight on that. >> Yeah. So if you look, if you look at the architecture that we have put in place, it's really a very agile and flexible architecture in a way that we have put in a central entity, which is the payment hub that is, that will handle all the payments solution that is there. And we put the flexibility for all the consumers because we have different banks. If you look at the banks industry, we have banks that are very mature, banks that have a medium level of maturity, and some that are absolutely not mature at all. And with this solution that we have to get involved, we have to be Azure 222 enabled, which is the new language that we will be using. Now, the infrastructure that we put in place have enabled that flexibility, otherwise we will never going to be successful. You cannot come to a country and say everybody needs to be onboarded into this language. Everybody needs to be operating this way. No, that will never going to work. We have taken that into consideration from the beginning. We knew this would be a challenge and we put different tools within IBM that we have put in place in order to go to mitigate those, such as the WTX, which is the Webster transformation exchanger that enables us to transform messages from and to Azure 222 or to Azure 222 or to any type of format that the customer have, any of the customer would be the banks. So we encapsulate that. Another challenge that we have is on the on boarding aspect. A lot of banks, again depending on their maturity level, we have to be ready with different environment for them to be, to catch up with us. Not everybody will be able to onboard on the same time. So by leveraging our RTVS solution, the rational testable service virtualization, it enables us to mitigate, to virtualize an entire ecosystem, make it look like it is a physical environment for the banks to use as a test as opposed to in the normal circumstances, purchasing additional hardware additional software, additional components and doing that, we're just virtualizing it for those who are ready for a system testing, those who are ready for a performance test, those who're ready for any type of non-functional requirements testing aspect. So these tools and this mechanism have helped us with our complex system integration methodology to mitigate this complexity and make it easy for the ecosystem to be onboarded and make us successful in this deal. >> And you raised a really interesting point in terms of the maturity of different levels of technology within the banking institutions there. You've got, you know, I'm sure, as you pointed out, some very small enterprises, right? Very small towns, very small institutions whose systems might not be as sophisticated or as mature, basically. So ultimately, how do you tie all that in together so that there might be a very large institution that has a very robust set of infrastructure and processes in place. And then you've got it communicating with a very small institution. You've got to be a great translator, right? I mean, IBM does here. Because you don't have them sometimes basically talking the same language, literally in this case. >> Yes, absolutely. And this is really our forte. We are the system integrators of choice in this region. And this goes without saying, because of our platform and our processes and our people that we put together. If you look at this, this example again, on the integration layer, we've enabled two lines of communication, two channels for the community. They could either go for API if they are very mature or they could go to MQ which is a low level of, I won't say a low level, but a very old fashioned way of communicating. On that aspect, they not only they have two protocols to get to us, they can use any message format that they want as long as we agree and we have an end check on the language that they're going to be using. And this integration layer or the system of integration that we have built that enables us to add that flexibility on both entities. >> So this was just launched. I mean literally just launched. What's your timeline in order to have full or I guess, reasonable implementation. >> That's a great question. Actually, the average is 24 to 30 months. We have broken the world record. We have implemented this magnificent solution within 18 months. It's actually a 17 month and a half of implementation. With the scope that we have, that is onboarding all the banks, having deferred net settlement, having the Azure 222, billing solution on it. We had the, we had the billing we had the dispute management, we had the single proxies. We have the debit cap and limit management and the portal solution. So we have all of these component within 17 and a half month. This breaks the world record of implementing an instant payment solution globally. >> We'll call Guinness and get you in the book then. It is a remarkable achievement. It really is. And you know, and you've talked about some of the the values here in terms of reduced transaction costs. Greater stability, greater security, greater transactional relationships, I imagine market liquidity, right? In your thought, I mean, tie all that together for our viewers in terms of impact and what you think this kind of partnership is going to create in terms of changing the way basically financial services are delivered in the kingdom. >> So it will change a lot. And the impact in the economy, like I said this is going to be on a three-fold. One, from a consumer point of view, you'll be able to save time in making your transactions. You will be able to trace your transactions and be able to have enough data to understand how you're managing your budget in your annual transaction. From a business point of view, you will be able to save yourself from theft. I mean, again, having cash in your business, it will tend to having more people coming in and stealing them from you either your employees or your customers or anybody else. But having a cashless business nobody can literally steal your money. They can only steal your phone or steal your gadget that you have for that aspect. Managing and maintaining cash also is a big problem. Now from a government point of view, this is where it gets very interesting, especially for Saudi Arabia, the taxation of the employees or the payment of it, the trustability of all of that and being able to trace it and being able to say, okay how much tax you will need to pay by end of the year without you doing the calculation. That information was already provided to the government. And as a central bank, the printing of cash, maintaining cash, storing cash, securing cash all of those costs will be going away. This is why the country wanted to go into a cashless society. >> Well, it's a fascinating endeavor. And certainly congratulations on that front. We're talking about real time payments and really making a significant difference in in how services are delivered in the kingdom and Elhadji, I certainly have appreciated your time here today and talking about it and and wish you all the best down the road. Thank you very much. >> Thank you very much, John. I appreciate it. >> All right. So we're talking about the journey to a cashless society in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia and what Elhadji is doing and what IBM is doing to make that happen. I'm John Wallace and thanks for joining us here on the Cube!

(gentle music) >> From around the globe, it's the Cube! With digital coverage of IBM Think 2021, brought to you by IBM. >> Well, welcome back to the Cube and our IBM Think initiative and today a fascinating subject with a dramatic shift that's going on in the Middle East and specifically in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. There is a significant partnership that has just recently been launched called SARIE, which is the Saudi Arabian real interbank express. And it basically is a, a dramatic move to make the kingdom cashless - and IBM is very much at the center of that. With me to talk about that role is Elhadji Cisse who at IBM is the MEA head of payments which of course is middle East and Africa. Elhadji, good to have you with us all the way from Dubai. Good to see you today. >> The pleasure's all mine. >> Good. Well, thank you for joining us. And let's, let's talk about this initiative. First off, the problem or at least the challenge that IBM and its partners are trying to solve and now how you're going about it. So let's just paint that 30,000 foot level, if you will, then we'll dive in a little deeper. >> All right. So if you look at the countries in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and in much of the region, Middle East and Africa, we have very cash driven society. And this provides lots of challenges in terms of government point of view, businesses' point of view. And even the consumer point of view. The cash transaction is becoming less and less traceable. You are less likely to see where the cash is going, where the cash is coming from. Maintaining the cash also is becoming more and more expensive in terms of security, in terms of recycling the cash, holding the cash, transacting the cash, all of that has to be taken into consideration. And the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, with the help of the crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman, has a visionary vision 2030 to be put in place that will enable them to revolutionize the entire financial sector. There's a segment within that called the FSDB, the financial sector development program. And that program, within that program, they have a goal to develop a digital platform that will enhance and enable the society to go to a more cashless society and also help define a full end to end digital environment for the, for the kingdom. >> So when you think about the scale of this, I mean it's almost mindblowing in a way, because in many cases we've been talking about with various of your colleagues at IBM, different initiatives that involve an organization or involve maybe a more regional partnership or something like that. This is national, right? This is every banking institution in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Businesses, government entities. I mean, if you would, share with me some of the complexity of this in terms of a project of that scale and, and trying to bring together these disparate systems that all have a different kind of legacy overhang, if you will, right. And now you're trying to modernize everybody moving towards the same goal in 2030, I think it's mind blowing. >> Yeah, it is. It is, John. And if you look at the complexity, if I may speak a little bit about how complex it is, let's start with the team. The team has been a full diverse team. We have 10 different nationalities. We have team from America, Canada, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE, China, UK, Pakistan, India. I mean, you name it. We have the whole globe pretty much. Every single region, Australia also was there. We had the team of that magnitude. In addition to that, as you rightfully stated, we're not building a system for a particular company or particular industry. It is for the entire country, all the banks of Saudi Arabia: the 11 national banks and the 12 additional international banks that are there. The global corporates, such as the Telco corporation, the oil corporation that are there. All of them needs to be onboarded into this including the 17 million or 20 some million population that are there. Now, the keys to this that we have is that our partners, MasterCard and Saudi payments, we have mandated ourself not to divide ourselves into three teams. We have to go with this as one single team. This was the motto of the project. This is what made us successful. We didn't differentiate between IBM, MasterCard, or Saudi payment. We all went together and addressed every single challenge as a team with the three different layers. And that's what helped us become successful with this engagement. >> So let's look at the initiatives specifically then in terms of the technology that's driving this. We talk a lot about the digital transformation that's occurring in the world. And again, it's kind of a catch all phrase, but this truly is a almost a magical transformation that you're going through. So how did you address the various workloads, what's going to be done where and how, and by whom. And then this integration that has to go on with that, not only are you centralizing a lot of these functions but you also have to distribute them to institutions across the kingdom. So if you would share a little bit of insight on that. >> Yeah. So if you look, if you look at the architecture that we have put in place, it's really a very agile and flexible architecture in a way that we have put in a central entity, which is the payment hub that is, that will handle all the payments solution that is there. And we put the flexibility for all the consumers because we have different banks. If you look at the banks industry, we have banks that are very mature, banks that have a medium level of maturity, and some that are absolutely not mature at all. And with this solution that we have to get involved, we have to be Azure 222 enabled, which is the new language that we will be using. Now, the infrastructure that we put in place have enabled that flexibility, otherwise we will never going to be successful. You cannot come to a country and say everybody needs to be onboarded into this language. Everybody needs to be operating this way. No, that will never going to work. We have taken that into consideration from the beginning. We knew this would be a challenge and we put different tools within IBM that we have put in place in order to go to mitigate those, such as the WTX, which is the Webster transformation exchanger that enables us to transform messages from and to Azure 222 or to Azure 222 or to any type of format that the customer have, any of the customer would be the banks. So we encapsulate that. Another challenge that we have is on the on boarding aspect. A lot of banks, again depending on their maturity level, we have to be ready with different environment for them to be, to catch up with us. Not everybody will be able to onboard on the same time. So by leveraging our RTVS solution, the rational testable service virtualization, it enables us to mitigate, to virtualize an entire ecosystem, make it look like it is a physical environment for the banks to use as a test as opposed to in the normal circumstances, purchasing additional hardware additional software, additional components and doing that, we're just virtualizing it for those who are ready for a system testing, those who are ready for a performance test, those who're ready for any type of non-functional requirements testing aspect. So these tools and this mechanism have helped us with our complex system integration methodology to mitigate this complexity and make it easy for the ecosystem to be onboarded and make us successful in this deal. >> And you raised a really interesting point in terms of the maturity of different levels of technology within the banking institutions there. You've got, you know, I'm sure, as you pointed out, some very small enterprises, right? Very small towns, very small institutions whose systems might not be as sophisticated or as mature, basically. So ultimately, how do you tie all that in together so that there might be a very large institution that has a very robust set of infrastructure and processes in place. And then you've got it communicating with a very small institution. You've got to be a great translator, right? I mean, IBM does here. Because you don't have them sometimes basically talking the same language, literally in this case. >> Yes, absolutely. And this is really our forte. We are the system integrators of choice in this region. And this goes without saying, because of our platform and our processes and our people that we put together. If you look at this, this example again, on the integration layer, we've enabled two lines of communication, two channels for the community. They could either go for API if they are very mature or they could go to MQ which is a low level of, I won't say a low level, but a very old fashioned way of communicating. On that aspect, they not only they have two protocols to get to us, they can use any message format that they want as long as we agree and we have an end check on the language that they're going to be using. And this integration layer or the system of integration that we have built that enables us to add that flexibility on both entities. >> So this was just launched. I mean literally just launched. What's your timeline in order to have full or I guess, reasonable implementation. >> That's a great question. Actually, the average is 24 to 30 months. We have broken the world record. We have implemented this magnificent solution within 18 months. It's actually a 17 month and a half of implementation. With the scope that we have, that is onboarding all the banks, having deferred net settlement, having the Azure 222, billing solution on it. We had the, we had the billing we had the dispute management, we had the single proxies. We have the debit cap and limit management and the portal solution. So we have all of these component within 17 and a half month. This breaks the world record of implementing an instant payment solution globally. >> We'll call Guinness and get you in the book then. It is a remarkable achievement. It really is. And you know, and you've talked about some of the the values here in terms of reduced transaction costs. Greater stability, greater security, greater transactional relationships, I imagine market liquidity, right? In your thought, I mean, tie all that together for our viewers in terms of impact and what you think this kind of partnership is going to create in terms of changing the way basically financial services are delivered in the kingdom. >> So it will change a lot. And the impact in the economy, like I said this is going to be on a three-fold. One, from a consumer point of view, you'll be able to save time in making your transactions. You will be able to trace your transactions and be able to have enough data to understand how you're managing your budget in your annual transaction. From a business point of view, you will be able to save yourself from theft. I mean, again, having cash in your business, it will tend to having more people coming in and stealing them from you either your employees or your customers or anybody else. But having a cashless business nobody can literally steal your money. They can only steal your phone or steal your gadget that you have for that aspect. Managing and maintaining cash also is a big problem. Now from a government point of view, this is where it gets very interesting, especially for Saudi Arabia, the taxation of the employees or the payment of it, the trustability of all of that and being able to trace it and being able to say, okay how much tax you will need to pay by end of the year without you doing the calculation. That information was already provided to the government. And as a central bank, the printing of cash, maintaining cash, storing cash, securing cash all of those costs will be going away. This is why the country wanted to go into a cashless society. >> Well, it's a fascinating endeavor. And certainly congratulations on that front. We're talking about real time payments and really making a significant difference in in how services are delivered in the kingdom and Elhadji, I certainly have appreciated your time here today and talking about it and and wish you all the best down the road. Thank you very much. >> Thank you very much, John. I appreciate it. >> All right. So we're talking about the journey to a cashless society in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia and what Elhadji is doing and what IBM is doing to make that happen. I'm John Wallace and thanks for joining us here on the Cube!

(upbeat electronic music) >> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Okay, hello everyone. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. We're here with Meet the Analysts segment Sunday morning. We've got everyone around the world here to discuss a bit of the news around the EU killing the privacy deal, striking it down, among other topics around, you know, data privacy and global commerce. We got great guests here, Ray Wang, CEO of Constellation Research. Bill Mew, founder and CEO of Cyber Crisis Management from the Firm Crisis Team. And JD, CEO of Spearhead Management. JD, I can let you say your name because I really can't pronounce it. How do I (laughs) pronounce it, doctor? >> I wouldn't even try it unless you are Dutch, otherwise it will seriously hurt your throat. (Ray laughing) So, JD works perfect for me. >> Doctor Drooghaag. >> And Sarbjeet Johal, who's obviously an influencer, a cloud awesome native expert. Great, guys. Great to have you on, appreciate it, thanks for comin' on. And Bill, thank you for initiating this, I appreciate all your tweets. >> Happy Sunday. (Bill laughing) >> You guys have been really tweeting up a storm, I want to get everyone together, kind of as an analyst, Meet the Analyst segment. Let's go through with it. The news is the EU and U.S. Privacy Shield for data struck down by the court, that's the BBC headline. Variety of news, different perspectives, you've got an American perspective and you've got an international perspective. Bill, we'll start with you. What does this news mean? I mean, basically half the people in the world probably don't know what the Privacy Shield means, so why is this ruling so important, and why should it be discussed? >> Well, thanks to sharing between Europe and America, it's based on a two-way promise that when data goes from Europe to America, the Americans promise to respect our privacy, and when data goes form America to Europe, the Europeans promise to respect the American privacy. Unfortunately, there are big cultural differences between the two blocks. The Europeans have a massive orientation around privacy as a human right. And in the U.S., there's somewhat more of a prioritization on national security, and therefore for some time there's been a mismatch here, and it could be argued that the Americans haven't been living up to their promise because they've had various different laws, and look how much talk about FISA and the Cloud Act that actually contravene European privacy and are incompatible with the promise Americans have given. That promise, first of all, was in the form of a treaty called Safe Harbor. This went to court and was struck down. It was replaced by Privacy Shield, which was pretty much the same thing really, and that has recently been to the court as well, and that has been struck down. There now is no other means of legally sharing data between Europe and America other than what are being called standard contractual clauses. This isn't a broad treaty between two nations, these are drawn by each individual country. But also in the ruling, they said that standard contractual clauses could not be used by any companies that were subject to mass surveillance. And actually in the U.S., the FISA courts enforce a level of mass surveillance through all of the major IT firms, of all major U.S. telcos, cloud firms, or indeed, social media firms. So, this means that for all of the companies out there and their clients, business should be carrying on as usual apart from if you're one of those major U.S. IT firms, or one of their clients. >> So, why did this come about? Was there like a major incident? Why now, was it in the court, stuck in the courts? Were people bitchin' and moanin' about it? Why did this go down, what's the real issue? >> For those of us who have been following this attentively, things have been getting more and more precarious for a number of years now. We've had a situation where there are different measures being taken in the U.S., that have continued to erode the different protections that there were for Europeans. FISA is an example that I've given, and that is the sort of secret courts and secret warrants that are issued to seize data without anyone's knowledge. There's the Cloud Act, which is a sort of extrajudicial law that means that warrants can be served in America to U.S. organizations, and they have to hand over data wherever that data resides, anywhere in the world. So, data could exist on a European server, if it was under the control of an American company, they'd have to hand that over. So, whilst FISA is in direct conflict with the promises that the Americans made, things like the Cloud Act are not only in controversion with the promise they've made, there's conflicting law here, because if you're a U.S. subsidiary of a big U.S. firm, and you're based in Europe, who do you obey, the European law that says you can't hand it over because of GDPR, or the American laws that says they've got extrajudicial control, and that you've got to hand it over. So, it's made things a complete mess. And to say has this stuff, hasn't really happened? No, there's been a gradual erosion, and this has been going through the courts for a number of years. And many of us have seen it coming, and now it just hit us. >> So, if I get you right in what you're saying, it's basically all this mishmash of different laws, and there's no coherency, and consistency, is that the core issue? >> On the European side you could argue there's quite a lot of consistency, because we uphold people's privacy, in theory. But there have been incidents which we could talk about with that, but in theory, we hold your rights dear, and also the rights of Europeans, so everyone's data should be safe here from the sort of mass surveillance we're seeing. In the U.S., there's more of a direct conflict between everything, including there's been a, in his first week in the White House, Donald Trump signed an executive order saying that the Privacy Act in the U.S., which had been the main protection for people in the U.S., no longer applied to non-U.S. citizens. Which was, if you wanted try and cause a storm, and if you wanted to try and undermine the treaty, there's no better way of doing it than that. >> A lot of ways, Ray, I mean simplify this for me, because I'm a startup, I'm hustlin', or I'm a big company, I don't even know who runs the servers anymore, and I've got data stored in multiple clouds, I got in regions, and Oracle just announced more regions, you got Amazon, a gazillion regions, I could be on-premise. I mean bottom line, what is this about? I mean, and -- >> Bill's right, I mean when Max Schrems, the Austrian. Bill's right, when Max Schrems the Austrian activist actually filed his case against Facebook for where data was being stored, data residency wasn't as popular. And you know, what it means for companies that are in the cloud is that you have to make sure your data's being stored in the region, and following those specific region rules, you can't skirt those rules anymore. And I think the cloud companies know that this has been coming for some time, and that's why there's been announced in a lot of regions, a lot of areas that are actually happening, so I think that's the important part. But going back to Bill's earlier point, which is important, is America is basically the Canary Islands of privacy, right? Privacy is there, but it isn't there in a very, very explicit sense, and I think we've been skirting the rules for quite some time, because a lot of our economy depends on that data, and the marketing of the data. And so we often confuse privacy with consent, and also with value exchange, and I think that's part of the problem of what's going on here. Companies that have been building their business models on free data, free private data, free personally identifiable data information are the ones that are at risk! And I think that's what's going on here. >> It's the classic Facebook issue, you're the product, and the data is your product. Well, I want to get into what this means, 'cause my personal take away, not knowing the specifics, and just following say, cyber security for instance, one of the tenets there is that data sharing is an invaluable, important ethos in the community. Now, everyone has their own privacy, or security data, they don't want to let everyone know about their exploits but, but it's well known in the security world that sharing data with each other, different companies and countries is actually a good thing. So, the question that comes in my mind, is this really about data sharing or data privacy, or both? >> I think it's about both. And actually what the ruling is saying here is, all we're asking from the European side is please stop spying on us and please give us a level of equal protection that you give to your own citizens. Because data comes from America to Europe, whatever that data belongs to, a U.S. citizen or a European citizen, it's given equal protection. It is only if data goes in the other direction, where you have secret courts, secret warrants, seizure of data on this massive scale, and also a level of lack of equivalence that has been imposed. And we're just asking that once you've sorted out a few of those things, we'd say everything's back on the table, away we go again! >> Why don't we merge the EU with the United States? Wouldn't that solve the problem? (Bill laughing) >> We just left Europe! (laughs heartily) >> Actually I always -- >> A hostile takeover of the UK maybe, the 52nd state. (Bill laughing loudly) >> I always pick on Bill, like Bill, you got all screaming loud and clear about all these concerns, but UKs trying to get out of that economic union. It is a union at the end of the day, and I think the problem is the institutional mismatch between the EU and U.S., U.S. is old democracy, bigger country, population wise, bigger economy. Whereas Europe is several countries trying to put together, band together as one entity, and the institutions are new, like you know, they're 15 years old, right? They're maturing. I think that's where the big mismatch is and -- >> Well, Ray, I want to get your thoughts on this, Ray wrote a book, I forget what year it was, this digital disruption, basically it was digital transformation before it was actually a trend. I mean to me it's like, do you do the process first and then figure out where the value extraction is, and this may be a Silicon Valley or an American thing, but go create value, then figure out how to create process or understand regulations. So, if data and entrepreneurship is going to be a new modern era of value, why wouldn't we want to create a rule based system that's open and enabling, and not restrictive? >> So, that's a great point, right? And the innovation culture means you go do it first, and you figure out the rules later, and that's been a very American way of getting things done, and very Silicon Valley in our perspective, not everyone, but I think in general that's kind of the trend. I think the challenge here is that we are trading privacy for security, privacy for convenience, privacy for personalization, right? And on the security level, it's a very different conversation than what it is on the consumer end, you know, personalization side. On the security side I think most Americans are okay with a little bit of "spying," at least on your own side, you know, to keep the country safe. We're not okay with a China level type of spying, which we're not sure exactly what that means or what's enforceable in the courts. We look like China to the Europeans in the way we treat privacy, and I think that's the perspective we need to understand because Europeans are very explicit about how privacy is being protected. And so this really comes back to a point where we actually have to get to a consent model on privacy, as to knowing what data is being shared, you have the right to say no, and when you have the right to say no. And then if you have a value exchange on that data, then it's really like sometimes it's monetary, sometimes it's non-monetary, sometimes there's other areas around consensus where you can actually put that into place. And I think that's what's missing at this point, saying, you know, "Do we pay for your data? Do we explicitly get your consent first before we use it?" And we haven't had that in place, and I think that's where we're headed towards. And you know sometimes we actually say privacy should be a human right, it is in the UN Charter, but we haven't figured out how to enforce it or talk about it in the digital age. And so I think that's the challenge. >> Okay, people, until they lose it, they don't really understand what it means. I mean, look at Americans. I have to say that we're idiots on this front, (Bill chuckling) but you know, the thing is most people don't even understand how much value's getting sucked out of their digital exhaust. Like, our kids, TikTok and whatnot. So I mean, I get that, I think there's some, there's going to be blow back for America for sure. I just worry it's going to increase the cost of doing business, and take away from the innovation for citizen value, the people, because at the end of the day, it's for the people right? I mean, at the end of the day it's like, what's my privacy mean if I lose value? >> Even before we start talking about the value of the data and the innovation that we can do through data use, you have to understand the European perspective here. For the European there's a level of double standards and an erosion of trust. There's double standards in the fact that in California you have new privacy regulations that are slightly different to GDPR, but they're very much GDPR like. And if the boot was on the other foot, to say if we were spying on Californians and looking at their personal data, and contravening CCPA, the Californians would be up in arms! Likewise if we having promised to have a level of equality, had enacted a local rule in Europe that said that when data from America's over here, actually the privacy of Americans counts for nothing, we're only going to prioritize the privacy of Europeans. Again, the Americans would be up in arms! And therefore you can see that there are real double standards here that are a massive issue, and until those addressed, we're not going to trust the Americans. And likewise, the very fact that on a number of occasions Americans have signed up to treaties and promised to protect our data as they did with Safe Harbor, as they did with Privacy Shield, and then have blatantly, blatantly failed to do so means that actually to get back to even a level playing field, where we were, you have a great deal of trust to overcome! And the thing from the perspective of the big IT firms, they've seen this coming for a long time, as Ray was saying, and they sought to try and have a presence in Europe and other things. But the way this ruling has gone is that, I'm sorry, that isn't going to be sufficient! These big IT firms based in the U.S. that have been happy to hand over data, well some of them maybe more happy than others, but they all need to hand over data to the NSA or the CIA. They've been doing this for some time now without actually respecting this data privacy agreement that has existed between the two trading blocks. And now they've been called out, and the position now is that the U.S. is no longer trusted, and neither are any of these large American technology firms. And until the snooping stops and equality is introduced, they can now no longer, even from their European operations, they can no longer use standard contractual clauses to transfer data, which is going to be a massive restriction on their business. And if they had any sense, they'd be lobbying very, very hard right now to the Senate, to the House, to try and persuade U.S. lawmakers actually to stick to some these treaties! To stop introducing really mad laws that ride roughshod over other people's privacy, and have a certain amount of respect. >> Let's let JD weigh in, 'cause he just got in, sorry on the video, I made him back on a host 'cause he dropped off. Just, Bill, real quick, I mean I think it's like when, you know, I go to Europe there's the line for Americans, there's the line for EU. Or EU and everybody else. I mean we might be there, but ultimately this has to be solved. So, JD, I want to let you weigh in, Germany has been at the beginning forefront of privacy, and they've been hardcore, and how's this all playing out in your perspective? >> Well, the first thing that we have to understand is that in Germany, there is a very strong law for regulation. Germans panic as soon as they know regulation, so they need to understand what am I allowed to do, and what am I not allowed to do. And they expect the same from the others. For the record I'm not German, but I live in Germany for some 20 years, so I got a bit of a feeling for them. And that sense of need for regulation has spread very fast throughout the European Union, because most of the European member states of the European Union consider this, that it makes sense, and then we found that Britain had already a very good framework for privacy, so GDPR itself is very largely based on what the United Kingdom already had in place with their privacy act. Moving forward, we try to find agreement and consensus with other countries, especially the United States because that's where most of the tech providers are, only to find out, and that is where it started to go really, really bad, 2014, when the mass production by Edward Snowden came out, to find out it's not data from citizens, it's surveillance programs which include companies. I joined a purchasing conference a few weeks ago where the purchase of a large European multinational, where the purchasing director explicitly stated that usage of U.S. based tech providers for sensitive data is prohibited as a result of them finding out that they have been under surveillance. So, it's not just the citizens, there's mass -- >> There you have it, guys! We did trust you! We did have agreements there that you could have abided by, but you chose not to, you chose to abuse our trust! And you're now in a position where you are no longer trusted, and unless you can lobby your own elected representatives to actually recreate a level playing field, we're not going to continue trusting you. >> So, I think really I -- >> Well I mean that, you know, innovation has to come from somewhere, and you know, has to come from America if that's the case, you guys have to get on board, right? Is that what it -- >> Innovation without trust? >> Is that the perspective? >> I don't think it's a country thing, I mean like, it's not you or them, I think everybody -- >> I'm just bustin' Bill's chops there. >> No, but I think everybody, everybody is looking for what the privacy rules are, and that's important. And you can have that innovation with consent, and I think that's really where we're going to get to. And this is why I keep pushing that issue. I mean, privacy should be a fundamental right, and how you get paid for that privacy is interesting, or how you get compensated for that privacy if you know what the explicit value exchange is. What you're talking about here is the surveillance that's going on by companies, which shouldn't be happening, right? That shouldn't be happening at the company level. At the government level I can understand that that is happening, and I think those are treaties that the governments have to agree upon as to how much they're going to impinge on our personal privacy for the trade off for security, and I don't think they've had those discussions either. Or they decided and didn't tell any of their citizens, and I think that's probably more likely the case. >> I mean, I think what's happening here, Bill, you guys were pointing out, and Ray, you articulated there on the other side, and my kind of colorful joke aside, is that we're living a first generation modern sociology problem. I mean, this is a policy challenge that extends across multiple industries, cyber security, citizen's rights, geopolitical. I mean when would look, and even when we were doing CUBE events overseas in Europe, in North American companies we'd call it abroad, we'd just recycle the American program, and we found there's so much localization value. So, Ray, this is the digital disruption, it's the virtualization of physical for digital worlds, and it's a lot of network theory, which is computer science, a lot of sociology. This is a modern challenge, and I don't think it so much has a silver bullet, it's just that we need smart people working on this. That's my take away! >> I think we can describe the ideal endpoint being somewhere we have meaningful protection alongside the maximization of economic and social value through innovation. So, that should be what we would all agree would be the ideal endpoint. But we need both, we need meaningful protection, and we need the maximization of economic and social value through innovation! >> Can I add another axis? Another axis, security as well. >> Well, I could -- >> I put meaningful protection as becoming both security and privacy. >> Well, I'll speak for the American perspective here, and I won't speak, 'cause I'm not the President of the United States, but I will say as someone who's been from Silicon Valley and the east coast as a technical person, not a political person, our lawmakers are idiots when it comes to tech, just generally. (Ray laughing) They're not really -- (Bill laughing loudly) >> They really don't understand. They really don't understand the tech at all! >> So, the problem is -- >> I'm not claiming ours are a great deal better. (laughs) >> Well, this is why I think this is a modern problem. Like, the young people I talk to are like, "Why do we have this rules?" They're all lawyers that got into these positions of Congress on the American side, and so with the American JEDI Contract you guys have been following very closely is, it's been like the old school Oracle, IBM, and then Amazon is leading with an innovative solution, and Microsoft has come in and re-pivoted. And so what you have is a fight for the digital future of citizenship! And I think what's happening is that we're in a massive societal transition, where the people in charge don't know what the hell they're talkin' about, technically. And they don't know who to tap to solve the problems, or even shape or frame the problems. Now, there's pockets of people that are workin' on it, but to me as someone who looks at this saying, it's a pretty simple solution, no one's ever seen this before. So, there's a metaphor you can draw, but it's a completely different problem space because it's, this is all digital, data's involved. >> We've got a lobbyists out there, and we've got some tech firms spending an enormous amount of lobbying. If those lobbyists aren't trying to steer their representatives in the right direction to come up with law that aren't going to massively undermine trade and data sharing between Europe and America, then they're making a big mistake, because we got here through some really dumb lawmaking in the U.S., I mean, there are none of the laws in Europe that are a problem here. 'Cause GDPR isn't a great difference, a great deal different from some of the laws that we have already in California and elsewhere. >> Bill, Bill. >> The laws that are at issue here -- >> Bill, Bill! You have to like, back up a little bit from that rhetoric that EU is perfect and U.S. is not, that's not true actually. >> I'm not saying we're perfect! >> No, no, you say that all the time. >> But I'm saying there's a massive lack of innovation. Yeah, yeah. >> I don't, I've never said it! >> Arm wrestle! >> Yes, yes. >> When I'm being critical of some of the dumb laws in the U.S, (Sarbjeet laughing) I'm not saying Europe is perfect. What we're trying to say is that in this particular instance, I said there was an equal balance here between meaningful protection and the maximization of economic and social value. On the meaningful protection side, America's got it very wrong in terms of the meaningful protection it provides to civil European data. On the maximization of economic and social value, I think Europe's got it wrong. I think there are a lot of things we could do in Europe to actually have far more innovation. >> Yeah. >> It's a cultural issue. The Germans want rules, that's what they crave for. America's the other way, we don't want rules, I mean, pretty much is a rebel society. And that's kind of the ethos of most tech companies. But I think you know, to me the media, there's two things that go on with this tech business. The company's themselves have to be checked by say, government, and I believe in not a lot of regulation, but enough to check the power of bad actors. Media so called "checking power", both of these major roles, they don't really know what they're talking about, and this is back to the education piece. The people who are in the media so called "checking power" and the government checking power assume that the companies are bad. Right, so yeah, because eight out of ten companies like Amazon, actually try to do good things. If you don't know what good is, you don't really, (laughs) you know, you're in the wrong game. So, I think media and government have a huge education opportunity to look at this because they don't even know what they're measuring. >> I support the level of innovation -- >> I think we're unreeling from the globalization. Like, we are undoing the globalization, and that these are the side effects, these conflicts are a side effect of that. >> Yeah, so all I'm saying is I support the focus on innovation in America, and that has driven an enormous amount of wealth and value. What I'm questioning here is do you really need to spy on us, your allies, in order to help that innovation? And I'm starting to, I mean, do you need mass surveillance of your allies? I mean, I can see you may want to have some surveillance of people who are a threat to you, but wait, guys, we're meant to be on your side, and you haven't been treating our privacy with a great deal of respect! >> You know, Saudi Arabia was our ally. You know, 9/11 happened because of them, their people, right? There is no ally here, and there is no enemy, in a way. We don't know where the rogue actors are sitting, like they don't know, they can be within the walls -- >> It's well understood I think, I agree, sorry. it's well understood that nation states are enabling terrorist groups to take out cyber attacks. That's well known, the source enables it. So, I think there's the privacy versus -- >> I'm not sure it's true in your case that it's Europeans that's doing this though. >> No, no, well you know, they share -- >> I'm a former officer in the Royal Navy, I've stood shoulder to shoulder with my U.S. counterparts. I put my life on the line on NATO exercises in real war zones, and I'm now a disabled ex-serviceman as a result of that. I mean, if I put my line on the line shoulder to shoulder with Americans, why is my privacy not respected? >> Hold on -- >> I feel it's, I was going to say actually that it's not that, like even the U.S., right? Part of the spying internally is we have internal actors that are behaving poorly. >> Yeah. >> Right, we have Marxist organizations posing as, you know, whatever it is, I'll leave it at that. But my point being is we've got a lot of that, every country has that, every country has actors and citizens and people in the system that are destined to try to overthrow the system. And I think that's what that surveillance is about. The question is, we don't have treaties, or we didn't have your explicit agreements. And that's why I'm pushing really hard here, like, they're separating privacy versus security, which is the national security, and privacy versus us as citizens in terms of our data being basically taken over for free, being used for free. >> John: I agree with that. >> That I think we have some agreement on. I just think that our governments haven't really had that conversation about what surveillance means. Maybe someone agreed and said, "Okay, that's fine. You guys can go do that, we won't tell anybody." And that's what it feels like. And I don't think we deliberately are saying, "Hey, we wanted to spy on your citizens." I think someone said, "Hey, there's a benefit here too." Otherwise I don't think the EU would have let this happen for that long unless Max had made that case and started this ball rolling, so, and Edward Snowden and other folks. >> Yeah, and I totally support the need for security. >> I want to enter the -- >> I mean we need to, where there are domestic terrorists, we need to stop them, and we need to have local action in UK to stop it happening here, and in America to stop it happening there. But if we're doing that, there is absolutely no need for the Americans to be spying on us. And there's absolutely no need for the Americans to say that privacy applies to U.S. citizens only, and not to Europeans, these are daft, it's just daft! >> That's a fair point. I'm sure GCHQ and everyone else has this covered, I mean I'm sure they do. (laughs) >> Oh, Bill, I know, I've been involved, I've been involved, and I know for a fact the U.S. and the UK are discussing I know a company called IronNet, which is run by General Keith Alexander, funded by C5 Capital. There's a lot of collaboration, because again, they're tryin' to get their arms around how to frame it. And they all agree that sharing data for the security side is super important, right? And I think IronNet has this thing called Iron Dome, which is essentially like they're saying, hey, we'll just consistency around the rules of shared data, and we can both, everyone can have their own little data. So, I think there's recognition at the highest levels of some smart people on both countries. (laughs) "Hey, let's work together!" The issue I have is just policy, and I think there's a lot of clustering going on. Clustered here around just getting out of their own way. That's my take on that. >> Are we a PG show? Wait, are we a PG show? I just got to remember that. (laughs) (Bill laughing) >> It's the internet, there's no regulation, there's no rules! >> There's no regulation! >> The European rules or is it the American rules? (Ray laughing) >> I would like to jump back quickly to the purpose of the surveillance, and especially when mass surveillance is done under the cover of national security and terror prevention. I worked with five clients in the past decade who all have been targeted under mass surveillance, which was revealed by Edward Snowden, and when they did their own investigation, and partially was confirmed by Edward Snowden in person, they found out that their purchasing department, their engineering department, big parts of their pricing data was targeted in mass surveillance. There's no way that anyone can explain me that that has anything to do with preventing terror attacks, or finding the bad guys. That is economical espionage, you cannot call it in any other way. And that was authorized by the same legislation that authorizes the surveillance for the right purposes. I'm all for fighting terror, and anything that can help us prevent terror from happening, I would be the first person to welcome it. But I do not welcome when that regulation is abused for a lot of other things under the cover of national interest. I understand -- >> Back to the lawmakers again. And again, America's been victim to the Chinese some of the individual properties, well documented, well known in tech circles. >> Yeah, but just 'cause the Chinese have targeted you doesn't give you free right to target us. >> I'm not saying that, but its abuse of power -- >> If the U.S. can sort out a little bit of reform, in the Senate and the House, I think that would go a long way to solving the issues that Europeans have right now, and a long way to sort of reaching a far better place from which we can all innovate and cooperate. >> Here's the challenge that I see. If you want to be instrumenting everything, you need a closed society, because if you have a free country like America and the UK, a democracy, you're open. If you're open, you can't stop everything, right? So, there has to be a trust, to your point, Bill. As to me that I'm just, I just can't get my arms around that idea of complete lockdown and data surveillance because I don't think it's gettable in the United States, like it's a free world, it's like, open. It should be open. But here we've got the grids, and we've got the critical infrastructure that should be protected. So, that's one hand. I just can't get around that, 'cause once you start getting to locking down stuff and measuring everything, that's just a series of walled gardens. >> So, to JD's point on the procurement data and pricing data, I have been involved in some of those kind of operations, and I think it's financial espionage that they're looking at, financial security, trying to figure out a way to track down capital flows and what was purchased. I hope that was it in your client's case, but I think it's trying to figure out where the money flow is going, more so than trying to understand the pricing data from competitive purposes. If it is the latter, where they're stealing the competitive information on pricing, and data's getting back to a competitor, that is definitely a no-no! But if it's really to figure out where the money trail went, which is what I think most of those financial analysts are doing, especially in the CIA, or in the FBI, that's really what that probably would have been. >> Yeah, I don't think that the CIA is selling the data to your competitors, as a company, to Microsoft or to Google, they're not selling it to each other, right? They're not giving it to each other, right? So, I think the one big problem I studied with FISA is that they get the data, but how long they can keep the data and how long they can mine the data. So, they should use that data as exhaust. Means like, they use it and just throw it away. But they don't, they keep mining that data at a later date, and FISA is only good for five years. Like, I learned that every five years we revisit that, and that's what happened this time, that we renewed it for six years this time, not five, for some reason one extra year. So, I think we revisit all these laws -- >> Could be an election cycle. >> Huh? >> Could be an election cycle maybe. (laughs) >> Yes, exactly! So, we revisit all these laws with Congress and Senate here periodically just to make sure that they are up to date, and that they're not infringing on human rights, or citizen's rights, or stuff like that. >> When you say you update to check they're not conflicting with anything, did you not support that it was conflicting with Privacy Shield and some of the promises you made to Europeans? At what point did that fail to become obvious? >> It does, because there's heightened urgency. Every big incident happens, 9/11 caused a lot of new sort of like regulations and laws coming into the picture. And then the last time, that the Russian interference in our election, that created some sort of heightened urgency. Like, "We need to do something guys here, like if some country can topple our elections, right, that's not acceptable." So, yeah -- >> And what was it that your allies did that caused you to spy on us and to downgrade our privacy? >> I'm not expert on the political systems here. I think our allies are, okay, loose on their, okay, I call it village politics. Like, world is like a village. Like it's so only few countries, it's not millions of countries, right? That's how I see it, a city versus a village, and that's how I see the countries, like village politics. Like there are two camps, like there's Russia and China camp, and then there's U.S. camp on the other side. Like, we used to have Russia and U.S., two forces, big guys, and they managed the whole world balance somehow, right? Like some people with one camp, the other with the other, right? That's how they used to work. Now that Russia has gone, hold on, let me finish, let me finish. >> Yeah. >> Russia's gone, there's this void, right? And China's trying to fill the void. Chinese are not like, acting diplomatic enough to fill that void, and there's, it's all like we're on this imbalance, I believe. And then Russia becomes a rogue actor kind of in a way, that's how I see it, and then they are funding all these bad people. You see that all along, like what happened in the Middle East and all that stuff. >> You said there are different camps. We thought we were in your camp! We didn't expect to be spied on by you, or to have our rights downgraded by you. >> No, I understand but -- >> We thought we were on your side! >> But, but you have to guys to trust us also, like in a village. Let me tell you, I come from a village, that's why I use the villager as a hashtag in my twitter also. Like in village, there are usually one or two families which keep the village intact, that's our roles. >> Right. >> Like, I don't know if you have lived in a village or not -- >> Well, Bill, you're making some great statements. Where's the evidence on the surveillance, where can people find more information on this? Can you share? >> I think there's plenty of evidence, and I can send some stuff on, and I'm a little bit shocked given the awareness of the FISA Act, the Cloud Act, the fact that these things are in existence and they're not exactly unknown. And many people have been complaining about them for years. I mean, we've had Safe Harbor overturned, we've had Privacy Shield overturned, and these weren't just on a whim! >> Yeah, what does JD have in his hand? I want to know. >> The Edward Snowden book! (laughs) >> By Edward Snowden, which gives you plenty. But it wasn't enough, and it's something that we have to keep in mind, because we can always claim that whatever Edward Snowden wrote, that he made it up. Every publication by Edward Snowden is an avalanche of technical confirmation. One of the things that he described about the Cisco switches, which Bill prefers to quote every time, which is a proven case, there were bundles of researchers saying, "I told you guys!" Nobody paid attention to those researchers, and Edward Snowden was smart enough to get the mass media representation in there. But there's one thing, a question I have for Sabjeet, because in the two parties strategy, it is interesting that you always take out the European Union as part. And the European Union is a big player, and it will continue to grow. It has a growing amount of trade agreements with a growing amount of countries, and I still hope, and I think think Bill -- >> Well, I think the number of countries is reducing, you've just lost one! >> Only one. (Bill laughing loudly) Actually though, those are four countries under one kingdom, but that's another point. (Bill chortling heartily) >> Guys, final topic, 5G impact, 'cause you mentioned Cisco, couldn't help think about -- >> Let me finish please my question, John. >> Okay, go ahead. How would you the United States respond if the European Union would now legalize to spy on everybody and every company, and every governmental institution within the United States and say, "No, no, it's our privilege, we need that." How would the United States respond? >> You can try that and see economically what happens to you, that's how the village politics work, you have to listen to the mightier than you, and we are economically mightier, that's the fact. Actually it's hard to swallow fact for, even for anybody else. >> If you guys built a great app, I would use it, and surveil all you want. >> Yeah, but so this is going to be driven by the economics. (John laughing) But the -- >> That's exactly what John said. >> This is going to be driven by the economics here. The big U.S. cloud firms are got to find this ruling enormously difficult for them, and they are inevitably going to lobby for a level of reform. And I think a level of a reform is needed. Nobody on your side is actually arguing very vociferously that the Cloud Act and the discrimination against Europeans is actually a particularly good idea. The problem is that once you've done the reform, are we going to believe you when you say, "Oh, it's all good now, we've stopped it!" Because with Crypto AG scandal in Switzerland you weren't exactly honest about what you were doing. With the FISA courts, so I mean FISA secret courts, the secret warrants, how do we know and what proof can we have that you've stopped doing all these bad things? And I think one of the challenges, A, going to be the reform, and then B, got to be able to show that you actually got your act together and you're now clean. And until you can solve those two, many of your big tech companies are going to be at a competitive disadvantage, and they're going to be screaming for this reform. >> Well, I think that, you know, General Mattis said in his book about Trump and the United states, is that you need alliances, and I think your point about trust and executing together, without alliances, it really doesn't work. So, unless there's some sort of real alliance, (laughs) like understanding that there's going to be some teamwork here, (Bill laughing) I don't think it's going to go anywhere. So, otherwise it'll continue to be siloed and network based, right? So to the village point, if TikTok can become a massively successful app, and they're surveilling, so and then we have to decide that we're going to put up with that, I mean, that's not my decision, but that's what's goin' on here. It's like, what is TikTok, is it good or bad? Amazon sent out an email, and they've retracted it, that's because it went public. I guarantee you that they're talkin' about that at Amazon, like, "Why would we want infiltration by the Chinese?" And I'm speculating, I have no data, I'm just saying, you know. They email those out, then they pull it back, "Oh, we didn't mean to send that." Really, hmm? (laughs) You know, so this kind of -- >> But the TRA Balin's good, you always want to get TRA Balin out there. >> Yeah, exactly. There's some spying going on! So, this is the reality. >> So, John, you were talking about 5G, and I think you know, the role of 5G, you know, the battle between Cisco and Huawei, you just have to look at it this way, would you rather have the U.S. spy on you, or would you rather have China? And that's really your binary choice at this moment. And you know both is happening, and so the question is which one is better. Like, the one that you're in alliance with? The one that you're not in alliance with, the one that wants to bury you, and decimate your country, and steal all your secrets and then commercialize 'em? Or the one kind of does it, but doesn't really do it explicitly? So, you've got to choose. (laughs) >> It's supposed to be -- >> Or you can say no, we're going to create our own standard for 5G and kick both out, that's an option. >> It's probably not as straightforward a question as, or an answer to that question as you say, because if we were to fast-forward 50 years, I would argue that China is going to be the largest trading nation in the world. I believe that China is going to have the upper hand on many of these technologies, and therefore why would we not want to use some of their innovation, some of their technology, why would we not actually be more orientated around trading with them than we might be with the U.S.? I think the U.S. is throwing its weight around at this moment in time, but if we were to fast-forward I think looking in the longterm, if I had to put my money on Huawei or some of its competitors, I think given its level of investments in research and whatever, I think the better longterm bet is Huawei. >> No, no, actually you guys need to pick a camp. It's a village again. You have to pick a camp, you can't be with both guys. >> Global village. >> Oh, right, so we have to go with the guys that have been spying on us? >> How do you know the Chinese haven't been spying on you? (Ray and John laughing loudly) >> I think I'm very happy, you find a backdoor in the Huawei equipment and you show it to us, we'll take them to task on it. But don't start bullying us into making decisions based on what-ifs. >> I don't think I'm, I'm not qualified to represent the U.S., but what we would want to say is that if you look at the dynamics of what's going on, China, we've been studying that as well in terms of the geopolitical aspects of what happens in technology, they have to do what they're doing right now. Because in 20 years our population dynamics go like this, right? You've got the one child policy, and they won't have the ability to go out and fight for those same resources where they are, so what they're doing makes sense from a country perspective and country policy. But I think they're going to look like Japan in 20 years, right? Because the xenophobia, the lack of immigration, the lack of inside stuff coming in, an aging population. I mean, those are all factors that slow down your economy in the long run. And the lack of bringing new people in for ideas, I mean that's part of it, they're a closed system. And so I think the longterm dynamics of every closed system is that they tend to fail versus open systems. So, I'm not sure, they may have better technology along the way. But I think a lot of us are probably in the camp now thinking that we're not going to aid and abet them, in that sense to get there. >> You're competing a country with a company, I didn't say that China had necessarily everything rosy in its future, it'll be a bigger economy, and it'll be a bigger trading partner, but it's got its problems, the one child policy and the repercussions of that. But that is not one of the things, Huawei, I think Huawei's a massively unlimited company that has got a massive lead, certainly in 5G technology, and may continue to maintain a lead into 6G and beyond. >> Oh yeah, yeah, Huawei's done a great job on the 5G side, and I don't disagree with that. And they're ahead in many aspects compared to the U.S., and they're already working on the 6G technologies as well, and the roll outs have been further ahead. So, that's definitely -- >> And they've got a great backer too, the financer, the country China. Okay guys, (Ray laughing) let's wrap up the segment. Thanks for everyone's time. Final thoughts, just each of you on this core issue of the news that we discussed and the impact that was the conversation. What's the core issue? What should people think about? What's your solution? What's your opinion of how this plays out? Just final statements. We'll start with Bill, Ray, Sarbjeet and JD. >> All I'm going to ask you is stop spying on us, treat us equally, treat us like the allies that we are, and then I think we've got to a bright future together! >> John: Ray? >> I would say that Bill's right in that aspect in terms of how security agreements work, I think that we've needed to be more explicit about those. I can't represent the U.S. government, but I think the larger issue is really how do we view privacy, and how we do trade offs between security and convenience, and you know, what's required for personalization, and companies that are built on data. So, the sooner we get to those kind of rules, an understanding of what's possible, what's a consensus between different countries and companies, I think the better off we will all be a society. >> Yeah, I believe the most important kind of independence is the economic independence. Like, economically sound parties dictate the terms, that's what U.S. is doing. And the smaller countries have to live with it or pick the other bigger player, number two in this case is China. John said earlier, I think, also what JD said is the fine balance between national security and the privacy. You can't have, you have to strike that balance, because the rogue actors are sitting in your country, and across the boundaries of the countries, right? So, it's not that FISA is being fought by Europeans only. Our internal people are fighting that too, like how when you are mining our data, like what are you using it for? Like, I get concerned too, when you can use that data against me, that you have some data against me, right? So, I think it's the fine balance between security and privacy, we have to strike that. Awesome. JD? I'll include a little fake check, fact check, at the moment China is the largest economy, the European Union is the second largest economy, followed directly by the USA, it's a very small difference, and I recommend that these two big parties behind the largest economy start to collaborate and start to do that eye to eye, because if you want to balance the economical and manufacturing power of China, you cannot do that as being number two and number three. You have to join up forces, and that starts with sticking with the treaties that you signed, and that has not happened in the past, almost four years. So, let's go back to the table, let's work on rules where from both sides the rights and the privileges are properly reflected, and then do the most important thing, stick to them! >> Yep, I think that's awesome. I think I would say that these young kids in high school and college, they need to come up and solve the problems, this is going to be a new generational shift where the geopolitical landscape will change radically, you mentioned the top three there. And new alliances, new kinds of re-imagination has to be there, and from America's standpoint I'll just say that I'd like to see lawmakers have, instead of a LinkedIn handle, a GitHub handle. You know, when they all go out on campaign talk about what code they've written. So, I think having a technical background or some sort of knowledge of computer science and how the internet works with sociology and societal impact will be critical for our citizenships to advance. So, you know rather a lawyer, right so? (laughs) Maybe get some law involved in that, I mean the critical lawyers, but today most people are lawyers in American politics, but show me a GitHub handle of that congressman, that senator, I'd be impressed. So, that's what we need. >> Thanks, good night! >> Ray, you want to say something? >> I wanted to say something, because I thought the U.S. economy was 21 trillion, the EU is sittin' at about 16, and China was sitting about 14, but okay, I don't know. >> You need to do math man. >> Hey, we went over our 30 minutes time, we can do an hour with you guys, so you're still good. (laughs) >> Can't take anymore. >> No go on, get in there, go at it when you've got something to say. >> I don't think it's immaterial the exact size of the economy, I think that we're better off collaborating on even and fair terms, we are -- >> We're all better off collaborating. >> Yeah. >> Gentlemen -- >> But the collaboration has to be on equal and fair terms, you know. (laughs) >> How do you define fair, good point. Fair and balanced, you know, we've got the new -- >> We did define fair, we struck a treaty! We absolutely defined it, absolutely! >> Yeah. >> And then one side didn't stick to it. >> We will leave it right there, and we'll follow up (Bill laughing) in a later conversation. Gentlemen, you guys are good. Thank you. (relaxing electronic music)

>> from Bahrain. It's the Q covering AWS Public sector Bahrain brought to you by Amazon Web service is >> Welcome back to the cubes coverage here in by rain in the Middle East for AWS Summit wrapping up event here with the cloud computing shift that's happening. Amazon regions live lot of innovation in the area Middle East and Africa. We're here with the head executive of A W s who manages the territory. Suban Shag, part head of Middle East Africa for public sector. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Absolutely. John, Thank you. Thank you for having me here. And thanks for being here with your team, learning about this story from the Middle East and, of course, all the way to North Africa and Africa as well to >> Well, it's been a lot of work that you're on your team have done it been successful, were super interested because there's a big story developing here. The Amazon region, which was announced two years ago, is available on Day one. Pun intended a lot of couples shipping their products on the cloud, but it's also a cultural revolution happening for a whole another generation that could change the landscape of the Middle East. Culture, technology, innovation, banking, entrepreneurship. This is a grass roots groundswell of change, empowerment, self esteem, money making, banking. I mean, all this that's going on >> absolute in the middle of it. Well, hey, we're proud to be part of it, and we're proud to be partners with many different organizations here as well. I think it's actually coming from all different directions, not just the ground swell, but even the leadership, the leadership of the countries that can Bahrain, but also the other countries in the Middle East and across the region. What we're seeing is that these countries air creating these vision plants, and these vision plans air about diversifying the economy, creating opportunity for youth, creating opportunity for folks that are diversifying from the economy. So then they're actually being displaced, and where do you turn to sew? These countries are turning to technology and in ah, Bahrain, in particular, they've set up programs where they helped to develop youth. They helped develop citizens, they could get free training on technology, all that to do, sees it and take it. And we've seen that uptake as well to have seen a lot of Bahrainis just taking courses, getting trained and then building. And that's what you witnessed today at our summit. >> You know, innovation takes on many forms you've seen in every way from the mobile wave. You saw, um, countries that didn't have good infrastructure, stand up mobile, fisher and Beam or connected than some of the incumbent countries that had connectivity last mile into >> an elite leap is >> the lead frog, right? So So this is happening here. But the trend we're seeing is that the old business school adage of focus on your core competency and then it's okay to outsource that that's not a core competency is a trend we're seeing with Cloud where you guys are providing the infrastructure for countries, not just businesses. Yeah, to focus on their core competency, and it's making things go faster. So speed is the table stakes, so it's slow. It's probably the old way. What are some of the conversations around this? Because this seems to be the hottest topic from things I've seen in the United States with CIA and Jed I that Therese has been involved in two education with educate and now here with the government modernizing with cloud first. Yeah, that's trickling throughout the entire country. >> Yeah, well, I mean, it's it's need, I'm part of that is needs. So in some of the countries in the region barring included, they wanted to spend controls. They want to reduce their costs. You want to get away from legacy, They want to get away from licenses they're not using or hardware that's sitting on shelves. So then they come and look at what we're doing in the same Well, wait a second. You're investing in the region. You're making infrastructure available. I can build on top of that, I can leverage open source I can create I could make citizen service is it's almost a no brainer for them to one of the biggest problems they have is that the train people and then those folks go in. They do start ups where they're going to start work for other businesses. Well, which is fantastic. It's actually creating that Gertrude a cycle that we want to be a part of his well too. So already starting to see that happening in the past couple of years. Have you been here? And of course, now we have the region lunch, which is only accelerating the journey. >> Talk about the business because you guys are active. Your presents early with a region which we think is a revitalisation, creates economic value. That's something we've been reporting on. But there's more than that. It's not just by rain. It's the whole region that you cover. What's the business landscape like? What if some of the deals you're doing? What's the startups look like when you talk about some of the the landscape dynamics? >> Absolutely. So first, let's start up Eco system is very, um, I was gonna say robust, but it's it's some to use the word that use. It's a groundswell Right now. We're seeing a lot of interest, Lot of activity. Ah, lot of folks getting into in experimenting very quickly. But it's not easy as we know. Doing a start. It's not easy, so that robust war will come with time. Ah, we're seeing that more funding is going into the space now. It's still very anemic. So in the Middle East, there's not enough funds going in there, especially for the early stage. We're seeing interest coming from outside for the later stages. We're talking about the creams, and we're talking about the cabbages and some of those companies, but at the earliest, ones >> that are clearly validated, growing like >> exactly the ones who have already earned market share with ones that air. Starting right now, they're finding their way. So we didn't do you need more funding for experimentation? Enter AWS and we provide is programs like Activate, which is an early stage start, a program. We work very closely with the V C's and the accelerators, so they're leveraging that now, too. So we're starting to see that growth, whether it's in Dubai or Abu Dhabi or Riyadh or Cairo or here. It's just starting to grow, which is great. And we're seeing that interest and some of that, um, should I go into this field? Would what When my mom's safe, I'm an entrepreneur versus a doctor that started swaying Now to where people say entrepreneurship is actually pretty >> cool, it's a legitimate field. >> It's a legitimate feeling that, believe it or not, which is excited, and people are going into it as well. On the enterprise side, s Emi's all the way to large enterprises. We're seeing that folks are saying, Hey, I can actually maybe even get new markets. So if you look at Al Tayyar Group, which are telltale Travel Group, which is out of Saudi Arabia, they're using that to learn more about their custom. Customers come up with new solutions and new packages that they can offer, all using a I and ML, which is incredible or fly Dubai FlyDubai in, In. In Dubai, you probably guessed that Ah, they need to stand up very quickly and online booking system. They did it in four months. It's leveraging cloud. So they're getting that they're getting that idea that you can kick it off real quick, get it running, and then launch it as well, too, and then the government. So we're seeing governments across the region saying, Hey, we've got a controller cost first of all, and we've got to make a better citizen service is we want to make sure that we improve the lives of citizens. So been able to launch new service is in a short amount of time. Today we heard about the I G A. Working on a building permit system that allows people to build quicker because they're able to get a permit in days instead of months. This is an example scene where speed matters to the point where we now have the government challenging business in terms of moving quicker, which is unheard of anywhere else in the world, which is super exciting, >> not certainly in the United States, that's for sure. I would like just to point out that from my standpoint, I heard this many V C. C are seeing them in the hallways mix of veces entrepreneurs business, globalize V's and New Eyes bees. The Amazon partner networks here. Yeah, it is partner Network. So it's all the things are in place now. Yes, What's missing? What do you see? It's to do items. Where do you think that you can raise the bar for AWS? What's what do you sees as to do items for you? What's your plan? >> Well, to your point, I mean, all the ingredients are here. So in terms of what's missing, I don't think there's anything missing spoke putting the ingredients together and build baking that cake. That's what we gotta work on right now, too. So that's why we're doing a lot of activity in the schools across the region, getting our program Educate and Academy, which of two different programs, ones broad. One is very directed to the schools. That is what we're helping to make sure that we get the next generation of learners. We're working on items, a cloud degrees. So in four years you can actually a degree leveraging all the technologies that are enabled by cloud. That's happened at the University of Bahrain, and we hope to get that in other schools. But also just getting training out there, just getting quick training. So you learn a little mint modules and you go and build something that's another area. Need spend more time and again encouraging experimentation. Try some new things, get it out there, see what the market says. So in terms of what we could do more of it. AWS is continue to push that message. Continue developing the people out here so that they're building. >> I gotta ask you, you know, you've been in Silicon Valley. You know that game for the folks living in silicon value in the U. S. What should they know about what's going on in your territory out here that they may not know? Or maybe this was fleeting thought or something that's not being reported. What's what. What's should did people know about what's going on in this region? >> Absolutely. I think sometimes for for many markets that are outside of Silicon Valley outside of the U. S. It's about copycats, start ups, which is fine. You can actually do quite well with that. Ah, usually the returns on that when you go to an exit event is less than what you might see it in the valley. Ah, but again, there's a great triage opportunity. So you want to bring the funds here? But I do see now a change where folks are building original technologies as well, too. And I think we're going to see more of the multiples, tens or 20 time multiples out here in the region, which would be wonderful. Ah, we saw a company today. You know, phonic, which is from Saudi Arabia that is building telecommunications, and, uh, contact invoice type of service is that's gonna be huge if they get this right. And I think they will, because they got a really scrappy and hungry team. That's one of those companies that actually could start getting people to notice the Middle East is a place for original innovation. >> Awesome. Um, anything else on your to do list for next year? What's Ah, Give a quick plug for your crew. You guys hiring? I see the region here. You gotta fill staff here. Actually got curriculum in the schools here. What are you looking >> for? You coming all the big What's not here to do? Yeah. You know, into this is continue to develop my team. We got a wonderful team here. Ah, lot of people that are local to the, uh, to the region. Ah, that We want to make sure that they're growing and contributing. A swell too. Our team missions to do good into. Well, at the same time, I think they go hand in hand. So we want to do more around programs that help to develop communities. You know, there are refugee crisis is around the region. We want to make sure we can help out over there. Ah, women in tech is a big area of focus for us. How can we get more women into technology and leading and technology as well? To have got my team having a mandate to get more solution architects that our women as well to we don't have one yet. We have a lot of great women on our team, but we need more technical women, too. That's another key focus area for us. Um, and just continue building continued to help the communities build solutions on the cloud. >> Zubin Chang, part here, head of the territory here in the Middle East and Africa. That's the cubes coverage of eight of US Summit and buyer in the Middle East. Signing off our second year. We'll be back with more next year and you'll see it around in the territory. Thanks for Thanks for watching.

>> from Bahrain. It's the Q covering AWS Public sector Bahrain brought to you by Amazon Web service is >> Welcome back. It runs the cube coverage for Amazon whips were summoned by rain and Middle East jump for cloud computing. Our startup panel at two great guests. So, Abdullah, who's with Flat Labs? Flat? Six Labs Incubator Investor. Same dull bet with sink. Sorry. So sorry They got that wrong with little glare on my spring there. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. Guys, start up. Scene here is robust. Last year from this year, More energy, more deployed capital because you're deploying capital. You're building a company. Give us the update start. >> Yeah, I would say over the past year, just our Bahrain location alone. We've already hit 23 startups that we've invested in, and we're looking to increase that number by about 68 start ups every six months. Um, as you've seen over the past year and Amina region and the GCC, there's rapid growth in the startup scene. Um and we're slowly starting to see each vertical fill up with the relevant startups and get more saturated. I think for a while we were one of the regions that were a lot less saturated when it came to our local startup because systems and the rest of the world The good thing is, now that we've gotta love the financial infrastructure into place, flat six Labs is one of them. And I think that's where we really um, we're lacking support before on DSO were signed to feel see players come into every stage of the startup growth be ableto help the stops raise their seed funds. Siri's a Series B >> and your role here is outreach building out my rain. Yet where the Economic Development Board trying to figure out that put together an entrepreneur strategy and not figure it out. We know what it is. You get money? Yeah, yeah. Party together, >> Yes. So what we're trying to do is there's two main things. One is that we're trying Thio finally be the first kind of financial investor that can help people going from a full time job in tow. You know, full time entrepreneurship rolls on to give them access to three of the biggest barriers that they usually will face, which is a business development network mentorship on Capitol andan. Everything that we're doing is weed. So personally, What I take care of is that I go to a lot of the international events around the globe, would start up because systems and try and find very early stage founders and educate them on the market. The region see where people would fit, where the gaps are in the market on dumb kind of raise awareness of old advantages that we have here in Bahrain. >> What makes you guys different? What's the differentiation >> as a country or as flat six labs? Both. So I'd say, as a country behinds in a very unique position where we have, ah, cultural mindset that is very easy for a lot of foreigners and expatriates to adapt to, Um, I think we've even been ranked number one in the world as a place for expect us to live several times on DA number. Thing is that we have a very high skilled workforce. Um, overhead costs are lower. So, for example, when it comes to the cost of rent when it comes to hiring a team, you also have subsidies that come into place like Tom Keen, uh, which Sam has also benefited from where if you go and you hire fresh graduate Bahrainis, you'll get >> ah, >> large margin of that subsidized by the government. So you're looking at, ah, mix where you have a high quality of life. But at the same time, it's the best starting point for a lot of start ups. Because you can extend your runway. You have, ah, much lower cash burn, and at the same time you've got one of the biggest market places right next door, which is Saudi Arabia, is the 30 minute drive across the bridge. So we've kind of got the best of all worlds over here, and and because we're a small country, we have a government that's incredibly reactive. So the regulatory authorities are very close with the startup ecosystem, for example, were always involved in the economic development board round table meetings on the ministries, all working closely together to try and make this as friendly and atmosphere is possible for the startup >> and they're authentic. That's interesting and see government authentically aligning. >> Yeah, it's in the interest of entrepreneur, I would say. One thing we really have going on is it's really an nationwide initiative from the founders to the private entities and investors like us and to the governmental agencies where we all are really dedicated towards making this start up >> san talk about your company. What do you guys do and what's your situation? >> Right? So my company's name is sinking. We're software as a service company that helps businesses manage the really hard aspects of managing their employees like things like timesheets scheduling. Job safety is a big one for us and job costing, and our target market is actually us small businesses and way were early stage company, and we met Salar and Flat six Labs, and they convinced us to come sit up here in Bahrain and never looked back. But the access to talent here is just amazing the cost of very low and were able to do a lot of a very small amount of money. And so far we've got to a total of four and 1/2 1000 U. S. Businesses using the platform. And we've done that all here from Bahrain, >> so very low, low cost leverage, a model, and that's because of the substance of just talent >> as a >> mixer, so it's a little bit cheaper to hire. People have more access to tell him it's a number of things. It's both of those things. >> Yeah, the university programs were interesting there. Got a degree in cloud Computing. They announced that we heard that news today. I mean, that's compelling. I mean, have you want to make the market just teach it? Yeah, exact. This is good, I think. >> I think the good thing is that everyone's come to an understanding that all parties have to get actively involved to make it the right atmosphere. So the universities are also working very closely with us hand in hand. And I've seen Percy a gigantic improvement over the past year where their senior projects of the universities are turning out where they got legitimate startup. It's Dex on Dhe. Some of them are even ready to go straight into acceleration, which was not the case a few years ago. So everybody's really on board. >> That's one of things we met last year in the economic Dillman for that round table. Lotte. I won't say complaints but concerns, and they're very listening to the whiteboards out their charts. How are they doing? Checking the boxes? They are checking the items off, moving these blockers and what's remaining in your mind in terms of things to make it frictionless. >> Yeah, I'd say like there's so far. We've done a great start andan the space of a year. We've accomplished a lot. But of course there's still shifting the whole mentality to understand the startup scene and also, you know, to get people to be less as, ah, cultural mentality, risk averse and start letting people feel that failure is an okay thing. It's okay to go straight out of university and give it a shot and try and start your own startup, Um, and also educating people of all the tools that are available to them. So although we do a lot of outreach and roadshows, still, there's, ah, a lot of people that need to be educated on how exploration works, how the VC side of it works. And I'd say another thing. We need Thio See coming is bridge funds. So we've got people that are ready to come in at Siri's a that precede that seed. But then there's usually these gaps where we need to kind of help Fila's well to keep people on target towards seriously >> like a bullpen. Capital kind of model. Like Paul Martinez Company? Yeah, sass coming that are in between being Air B or B and C just need that little bridge. Yeah, exactly. That. Just >> that extra runway so that they can hit the targets that the later stage investors want us. >> Guys, give it plug for your reference. What you working on? Now? What do you quit your to do? Item? What's, uh what's the plan? Give a pitch for the company. >> Looks way No. The first company to attack time tendons. And we won't be the last. But where we think that we can win his job costing and job tracking, which is something that the customers that we talked to it really screaming out, too. So we've been building a really complex but simple to use system for managing jobs the last 3 to 6 months, and we're about to deploy that to our users in a few weeks. We're very excited about that. And that's really our secret source. We just a lot of guys doing the time in attendance. We're doing it very well, but we want to be the best of jobs. And we also want to stay laser focused throughout our particular users, which is actually employers with 1 to 20 employees in the states. And that's actually that actually makes up 89% of all employers in the States. And it's very hard to historically to find these guys. But we'll be having a smart phone in their pocket. It's actually becoming easier and easier for us, and we find it. >> And those coming need the most help, too, because they're the ones that could grow to 50 employees next. Exactly. So what's the U. R L? Our website and app Tick and download. What's the head of someone contact U S. >> So they will go to sync dot business and they can use the Web version there. But we also have to mobile app so we could be found in the APP store and on the place. >> Awesome. Congratulations and updates for you guys. What's next for you here by rain in general? >> Well, in Bahrain and Demeanor Region, we're continuing to expand their several locations that we're gonna launch again as accelerator programs on dhe. Locally, over here, we're always accepting applications from international startups. We're actually having our demo day tomorrow So you should drop by if you're gonna be here. Yes. Did I would be great if you come down and a CZ that happens. We're accepting applications to the next cycle on dhe. They can just log onto flat six labs, bahrain dot com All the information's over there. And if they want to get in touch with me, they can just put my name into Lincoln. So >> I beat him up into a system, and when they're ready to accelerate, they go. Good to go. Congratulates. Good job, guys. Thanks for the update. Startup scene is robust here by rain. The Cube coverage for our second year covering Amazon Web service is summit. I'm Jumper Stevens for more coverage after this short break.

[Music] when welcome to the special exclusive cube conversation here in Palo Alto in our studios I'm John for your host of the cube we have a very special guest speaking for the first time around some alleged alleged accusations and also innuendo around the Amazon Web Services Jedi contract and his firm c5 capital our guest as Andre Pienaar who's the founder of c5 capital Andre is here for the first time to talk about some of the hard conversations and questions surrounding his role his firm and the story from the BBC Andre thanks for a rat for meeting with me John great to have me thank you so you're at the center of a controversy and just for the folks who know the cube know we interviewed a lot of people I've interviewed you at Amazon web sources summit Teresa Carl's event and last year I met you and bought a rein the work you're doing there so I've met you a few times so I don't know your background but I want to drill into it because I was surprised to see the BBC story come out last week that was basically accusing you of many things including are you a spy are you infiltrating the US government through the Jedi contract through Amazon and knowing c-5 capital I saw no correlation when reading your article I was kind of disturbed but then I saw I said a follow-on stories it just didn't hang together so I wanted to press you on some questions and thanks for coming in and addressing them appreciate it John thanks for having me so first thing I want to ask you is you know it has you at the center this firm c5 capital that you the founder of at the center of what looks like to be the fight for the big ten billion dollar DoD contract which has been put out to multiple vendors so it's not a single source deal we've covered extensively on silicon angle calm and the cube and the government the government Accounting Office has ruled that there are six main benefits of going with a sole provider cloud this seems to be the war so Oracle IBM and others have been been involved we've been covering that so it kind of smells like something's going along with the story and I just didn't believe some of the things I read and I want to especially about you and see five capitals so I want to dig into what the first thing is it's c5 capital involved in the Jedi contract with AWS Sean not at all we have absolutely no involvement in the Jedi contract in any way we're not a bidder and we haven't done any lobbying as has been alleged by some of the people who've been making this allegation c5 has got no involvement in the general contract we're a venture capital firm with a British venture capital firm we have the privilege of investing here in the US as a foreign investor and our focus really is on the growth and the success of the startups that we are invested in so you have no business interest at all in the deal Department of Defense Jedi contract none whatsoever okay so to take a minute to explain c5 firm I read some of the stories there and some of the things were intricate structures of c5 cap made it sound like there was like a cloak-and-dagger situation I want to ask you some hard questions around that because there's a link to a Russian situation but before we get to there I want to ask you explain what is c5 capital your mission what are the things that you're doing c5 is a is a British venture capital firm and we are focused on investing into fast-growing technology companies in three areas cloud computing cyber security and artificial intelligence we have two parts our business c5 capital which invests into late stage companies so these are companies that typically already have revenue visibility and profitability but still very fast-growing and then we also have a very early stage startup platform that look at seed state investment and this we do through two accelerators to social impact accelerators one in Washington and one in Bahrain and it's just size of money involved just sort of order magnitude how many funds do you have how is it structure again just share some insight on that is it is there one firm is there multiple firms how is it knows it work well today the venture capital business has to be very transparent it's required by compliance we are a regulated regulated firm we are regulated in multiple markets we regulated here in the US the sec as a foreign investor in london by the financial conduct authority and in Luxembourg where Afonso based by the regulatory authorities there so in the venture capital industry today you can't afford to be an opaque business you have to be transparent at all levels and money in the Western world have become almost completely transparent so there's a very comprehensive and thorough due diligence when you onboard capital called know your client and the requirements standard requirement now is that whenever you're onboard capital from investor you're gonna take it right up to the level of the ultimate beneficial ownership so who actually owns this money and then every time you invest and you move your money around it gets diligence together different regulators and in terms of disclosure and the same applies often now with clients when our portfolio companies have important or significant clients they also want to know who's behind the products and the services they receive so often our boards our board directors and a shell team also get diligence by by important clients so explain this piece about the due diligence and the cross country vetting that goes on is I think it's important I want to get it out because how long has been operating how many deals have you done you mentioned foreign investor in the United States you're doing deals in the United States I know I've met one of your portfolio companies at an event iron iron on it iron net general Keith Alexander former head of the NSA you know get to just work with him without being vetted I guess so so how long a c5 capital been in business and where have you made your investments you mentioned cross jurisdiction across countries whatever it's called I don't know that so we've been and we've been in existence for about six years now our main focus is investing in Europe so we help European companies grow globally Europe historically has been underserved by venture capital we on an annual basis we invest about twenty seven billion dollars gets invested in venture capital in Europe as opposed to several multiples of that in the US so we have a very important part to play in Europe to how European enterprise software companies grow globally other important markets for us of course are Israel which is a major center of technology innovation and and the Middle East and then the u.s. the u.s. is still the world leader and venture capital both in terms of size but also in terms of the size of the market and of course the face and the excitement of the innovation here I want to get into me early career because again timing is key we're seeing this with you know whether it's a Supreme Court justice or anyone in their career their past comes back to haunt them it appears that has for you before we get there I want to ask you about you know when you look at the kind of scope of fraud and corruption that I've seen in just on the surface of government thing the government bit Beltway bandits in America is you got a nonprofit that feeds a for-profit and then what you know someone else runs a shell corporation so there's this intricate structures and that word was used which it kind of implies shell corporations a variety of backroom kind of smokey deals going on you mentioned transparency I do you have anything to hide John in in in our business we've got absolutely nothing to hide we have to be transparent we have to be open if you look at our social media profile you'll see we are communicating with the market almost on a daily basis every time we make an investment we press release that our website is very clear about who's involved enough who our partners are and the same applies to my own personal website and so in terms of the money movement around in terms of deploying investments we've seen Silicon Valley VCS move to China get their butts handed to them and then kind of adjust their scenes China money move around when you move money around you mentioned disclosure what do you mean there's filings to explain that piece it's just a little bit so every time we make an investment into a into a new portfolio company and we move the money to that market to make the investment we have to disclose who all the investors are who are involved in that investment so we have to disclose the ultimate beneficial ownership of all our limited partners to the law firms that are involved in the transactions and those law firms in turn have applications in terms of they own anti-money laundering laws in the local markets and this happens every time you move money around so I I think that the level of transparency in venture capital is just continue to rise exponentially and it's virtually impossible to conceal the identity of an investor this interesting this BBC article has a theme of national security risk kind of gloom and doom nuclear codes as mentioned it's like you want to scare someone you throw nuclear codes at it you want to get people's attention you play the Russian card I saw an article on the web that that said you know anything these days the me2 movement for governments just play the Russian card and you know instantly can discredit someone's kind of a desperation act so you got confident of interest in the government national security risk seems to be kind of a theme but before we get into the BBC news I noticed that there was a lot of conflated pieces kind of pulling together you know on one hand you know you're c5 you've done some things with your hat your past and then they just make basically associate that with running amazon's jedi project yes which i know is not to be true and you clarified that joan ends a problem joan so as a venture capital firm focused on investing in the space we have to work with all the Tier one cloud providers we are great believers in commercial cloud public cloud we believe that this is absolutely transformative not only for innovation but also for the way in which we do venture capital investment so we work with Amazon Web Services we work with Microsoft who work with Google and we believe that firstly that cloud has been made in America the first 15 companies in the world are all in cloud companies are all American and we believe that cloud like the internet and GPS are two great boons which the US economy the u.s. innovation economy have provided to the rest of the world cloud computing is reducing the cost of computing power with 50 percent every three years opening up innovation and opportunities for Entrepreneurship for health and well-being for the growth of economies on an unprecedented scale cloud computing is as important to the global economy today as the dollar ease as the world's reserve currency so we are great believers in cloud we great believers in American cloud computing companies as far as Amazon is concerned our relationship with Amazon Amazon is very Amazon Web Services is very clear and it's very defined we participate in a public Marcus program called AWS activate through which AWS supports hundreds of accelerators around the world with know-how with mentoring with teaching and with cloud credits to help entrepreneurs and startups grow their businesses and we have a very exciting focus for our two accelerators which is on in Washington we focus on peace technology we focus on taking entrepreneurs from conflict countries like Sudan Nigeria Pakistan to come to Washington to work on campus in the US government building the u.s. Institute for peace to scale these startups to learn all about cloud computing to learn how they can grow their businesses with cloud computing and to go back to their own countries to build peace and stability and prosperity their heaven so we're very proud of this mission in the Middle East and Bahrain our focus is on on female founders and female entrepreneurs we've got a program called nebula through which we empower female founders and female entrepreneurs interesting in the Middle East the statistics are the reverse from what we have in the West the majority of IT graduates in the Middle East are fimo and so there's a tremendous talent pool of of young dynamic female entrepreneurs coming out of not only the Gulf but the whole of the MENA region how about a relation with Amazon websites outside of their normal incubators they have incubators all over the place in the Amazon put out as Amazon Web Services put out a statement that said hey you know we have a lot of relationships with incubators this is normal course of business I know here in Silicon Valley at the startup loft this is this is their market filled market playbook so you fit into that is that correct as I'm I get that that's that's absolutely correct what we what is unusual about a table insists that this is a huge company that's focused on tiny startups a table started with startups it double uses first clients with startups and so here you have a huge business that has a deep understanding of startups and focus on startups and that's enormous the attractor for us and terrific for our accelerators department with them have you at c5 Capitol or individually have any formal or conversation with Amazon employees where you've had outside of giving feedback on products where you've tried to make change on their technology make change with their product management teams engineering you ever had at c5 capital whore have you personally been involved in influencing Amazon's product roadmap outside they're just giving normal feedback in the course of business that's way above my pay grade John firstly we don't have that kind of technical expertise in C 5 C 5 steam consists of a combination of entrepreneurs like myself people understand money really well and leaders we don't have that level of technical expertise and secondly that's what one our relationship with AWS is all about our relationship is entirely limited to the two startups and making sure that the two accelerators in making sure that the startups who pass through those accelerators succeed and make social impact and as a partner network component Amazon it's all put out there yes so in in a Barren accelerator we've we formed part of the Amazon partner network and the reason why we we did that was because we wanted to give some of the young people who come through the accelerator and know mastering cloud skills an opportunity to work on some real projects and real live projects so some of our young golf entrepreneurs female entrepreneurs have been working on building websites on Amazon Cloud and c5 capital has a relationship with former government officials you funded startups and cybersecurity that's kind of normal can you explain that positioning of it of how former government if it's whether it's US and abroad are involved in entrepreneurial activities and why that is may or may not be a problem certainly is a lot of kind of I would say smoke around this conversation around coffin of interest and you can you explain intelligence what that was it so I think the model for venture capital has been evolving and increasingly you get more and more differentiated models one of the key areas in which the venture capital model is changed is the fact that operating partners have become much more important to the success of venture capital firms so operating partners are people who bring real world experience to the investment experience of the investment team and in c-five we have the privilege of having a terrific group of operating partners people with both government and commercial backgrounds and they work very actively enough firm at all levels from our decision-making to the training and the mentoring of our team to helping us understand the way in which the world is exchanging to risk management to helping uh portfolio companies grow and Silicon Valley true with that to injuries in Horowitz two founders mr. friendly they bring in operating people that have entrepreneurial skills this is the new model understand order which has been a great source of inspiration to us for our model and and we built really believe this is a new model and it's really critical for the success of venture capitals to be going forward and the global impact is pretty significant one of things you mentioned I want to get your take on is as you operate a global transaction a lots happened a lot has to happen I mean we look at the ICO market on the cryptocurrency side its kind of you know plummeting obsoletes it's over now the mood security children's regulatory and transparency becomes critical you feel fully confident that you haven't you know from a regulatory standpoint c5 capital everything's out there absolutely risk management and regulated compliance and legal as the workstream have become absolutely critical for the success of venture capital firms and one of the reasons why this becomes so important John is because the venture capital world over the last few years have changed dramatically historically all the people involved in venture capital had very familiar names and came from very familiar places over the last few years with a diversification of global economic growth we've seen it's very significant amounts of money being invest invested in startups in China some people more money will invest in startups this year in China than in the US and we've seen countries like Saudi Arabia becoming a major source of venture capital funding some people say that as much as 70% of funding rounds this year in some way or another originated from the Gulf and we've seen places like Russia beginning to take an interest in technology innovation so the venture capital world is changing and for that reason compliance and regulation have become much more important but if Russians put 200 million dollars in face book and write out the check companies bright before that when the after 2008 we saw the rise of social networking I think global money certainly has something that I think a lot of people start getting used to and I want on trill down into that a little bit we talked about this BBC story that that hit and the the follow-on stories which actually didn't get picked up was mostly doing more regurgitation of the same story but one of the things that that they focus in on and the story was you and the trend now is your past is your enemy these days you know they try to drum up stuff in the past you've had a long career some of the stuff that they've been bringing in to paint you and the light that they did was from your past so I wanted to explore that with you I know you this is the first time you've talked about this and I appreciate you taking the time talk about your early career your background where you went to school because the way I'm reading this it sounds like you're a shady character I like like I interviewed on the queue but I didn't see that but you know I'm going to pressure here for that if you don't mind I'd like to to dig into that John thank you for that so I've had the I've had the privilege of a really amazingly interesting life and at the heart of at the heart of that great adventures been people and the privilege to work with really great people and good people I was born in South Africa I grew up in Africa went to school there qualified as a lawyer and then came to study in Britain when I studied international politics when I finished my studies international politics I got head hunted by a US consulting firm called crow which was a start of a 20 years career as an investigator first in crawl where I was a managing director in the London and then in building my own consulting firm which was called g3 and all of this led me to cybersecurity because as an investigator looking into organized crime looking into corruption looking into asset racing increasingly as the years went on everything became digital and I became very interested in finding evidence on electronic devices but starting my career and CRO was tremendous because Jules Kroll was a incredible mentor he could walk through an office and call everybody by their first name any Kroll office anywhere in the world and he always took a kindly interest in the people who work for him so it was a great school to go to and and I worked on some terrific cases including some very interesting Russian cases and Russian organized crime cases just this bag of Kroll was I've had a core competency in doing investigative work and also due diligence was that kind of focus yes although Kroll was the first company in the world to really have a strong digital practice led by Alan Brugler of New York Alan established the first computer forensics practice which was all focused about finding evidence on devices and everything I know about cyber security today started with me going to school with Alan Brolin crawl and they also focused on corruption uncovering this is from Wikipedia Kroll clients help Kroll helps clients improve operations by uncovering kickbacks fraud another form of corruptions other specialty areas is forensic accounting background screening drug testing electronic investigation data recovery SATA result Omar's McLennan in 2004 for 1.9 billion mark divested Kroll to another company I'll take credit risk management to diligence investigator in Falls Church Virginia over 150 countries call Kroll was the first CRO was the first household brand name in this field of of investigations and today's still is probably one of the strongest brand names and so it was a great firm to work in and was a great privilege to be part of it yeah high-end high-profile deals were there how many employees were in Kroll cuz I'd imagine that the alumni that that came out of Kroll probably have found places in other jobs similar to yes do an investigative work like you know they out them all over the world many many alumni from Kroll and many of them doing really well and doing great work ok great so now the next question want to ask you is when you in Kroll the South Africa connection came up so I got to ask you it says business side that you're a former South African spy are you a former South African spy no John I've never worked for any government agency and in developing my career my my whole focus has been on investigations out of the Kroll London office I did have the opportunity to work in South Africa out of the Kroll London office and this was really a seminal moment in my career when I went to South Africa on a case for a major international credit-card company immediately after the end of apartheid when democracy started to look into the scale and extent of credit card fraud at the request of this guy what year was there - how old were you this was in 1995 1996 I was 25 26 years old and one of the things which this credit card company asked me to do was to assess what was the capability of the new democratic government in South Africa under Nelson Mandela to deal with crime and so I had the privilege of meeting mr. Mandela as the president to discuss this issue with him and it was an extraordinary man the country's history because there was such an openness and a willingness to to address issues of this nature and to grapple with them so he was released from prison at that time I remember those days and he became president that's why he called you and you met with him face to face of a business conversation around working on what the future democracy is and trying to look at from a corruption standpoint or just kind of in general was that what was that conversation can you share so so that so the meeting involved President Mandela and and the relevant cabinet ministers the relevant secretaries and his cabinet - responsible for for these issues and the focus of our conversation really started with well how do you deal with credit card fraud and how do you deal with large-scale fraud that could be driven by organized crime and at the time this was an issue of great concern to the president because there was bombing in Kate of a Planet Hollywood cafe where a number of people got very severely injured and the president believed that this could have been the result of a protection racket in Cape Town and so he wanted to do something about it he was incredibly proactive and forward-leaning and in an extraordinary way he ended the conversation by by asking where the Kroll can help him and so he commissioned Kroll to build the capacity of all the black officers that came out of the ANC and have gone into key government positions on how to manage organized crime investigations it was the challenge at that time honestly I can imagine apartheid I remember you know I was just at a college that's not properly around the same age as you it was a dynamic time to say the least was his issue around lack of training old school techniques because you know that was right down post-cold-war and then did what were the concerns not enough people was it just out of control was it a corrupt I mean just I mean what was the core issue that Nelson wanted to hire Kroll and you could work his core issue was he wanted to ensure the stability of South Africa's democracy that was his core focus and he wanted to make South Africa an attractive place where international companies felt comfortable and confident in investing and that was his focus and he felt that at that time because so many of the key people in the ANC only had training in a cold war context that there wasn't a Nessy skill set to do complex financial or more modern investigations and it was very much focused he was always the innovator he was very much focused on bringing the best practices and the best investigative techniques to the country he was I felt in such a hurry that he doesn't want to do this by going to other governments and asking for the help he wanted to Commission it himself and so he gave he gave a crawl with me as the project leader a contract to do this and my namesake Francois Pienaar has become very well known because of the film Invictus and he's been he had the benefit of Mandela as a mentor and as a supporter and that changed his career the same thing happened to me so what did he actually asked you to do was it to train build a force because there's this talk that and was a despite corruption specifically it was it more both corruption and or stability because they kind of go hand in hand policy and it's a very close link between corruption and instability and and president Ellis instructions were very clear to Crowley said go out and find me the best people in the world the most experienced people in the world who can come to South Africa and train my people how to fight organized crime so I went out and I found some of the best people from the CIA from mi6 the British intelligence service from the Drug Enforcement Agency here in the US form officers from the Federal Bureau of Investigation's detectives from Scotland Yard prosecutors from the US Justice Department and all of them for a number of years traveled to South Africa to train black officers who were newly appointed in key roles in how to combat organized crime and this was you acting as an employee he had crow there's not some operative this is he this was me very much acting as a as an executive and crow I was the project leader Kroll was very well structured and organized and I reported to the chief executive officer in the London office nor Garret who was the former head of the CIA's Near East Division and Nelson Mandela was intimately involved in this with you at Krall President Mandela was the ultimate support of this project and he then designated several ministers to work on it and also senior officials in the stories that had been put out this past week they talked about this to try to make it sound like you're involved on two sides of the equation they bring up scorpions was this the scorpions project that they referred to so it was the scorpions scorpion sounds so dangerous and a movie well there's a movie a movie does feature this so at the end of the training project President Mandela and deputy president Thabo Mbeki who subsequently succeeded him as president put together a ministerial committee to look at what should they do with the capacity that's been built with this investment that they made because for a period of about three years we had all the leading people the most experienced people that have come out of some of the best law enforcement agencies and some of the best intelligence services come and trained in South Africa and this was quite this was quite something John because many of the senior officers in the ANC came from a background where they were trained by the opponents of the people came to treat trained them so so many of them were trained by the Stasi in East Germany some of them were trained by the Russian KGB some of them were trained by the Cubans so we not only had to train them we also had to win their trust and when we started this that's a diverse set of potential dogma and or just habits a theory modernised if you will right is that what the there was there was a question of of learning new skills and there was a question about also about learning management capabilities there was also question of learning the importance of the media for when you do difficult and complex investigations there was a question about using digital resources but there was also fundamentally a question of just building trust and when we started this program none of the black officers wanted to be photographed with all these foreign trainers who were senior foreign intelligence officers when we finished that everyone wanted to be in the photograph and so this was a great South African success story but the President and the deputy president then reflected on what to do with his capacity and they appointed the ministerial task force to do this and we were asked to make recommendations to this Minister ministerial task force and one of the things which we did was we showed them a movie because you referenced the movie and the movie we showed them was the untouchables with Kevin Costner and Sean Connery which is still one of my favorite and and greatest movies and the story The Untouchables is about police corruption in Chicago and how in the Treasury Department a man called Eliot Ness put together a group of officers from which he selected from different places with clean hands to go after corruption during the Probie and this really captured the president's imagination and so he said that's what he want and Ella yeah okay so he said della one of the untouchables he wanted Eliot Ness exactly Al Capone's out there and and how many people were in that goodness so we asked that we we established the government then established decided to establish and this was passed as a law through Parliament the director of special operations the DSO which colloquy became known as the scorpions and it had a scorpion as a symbol for this unit and this became a standalone anti-corruption unit and the brilliant thing about it John was that the first intake of scorpion officers were all young black graduates many of them law graduates and at the time Janet Reno was the US Attorney General played a very crucial role she allowed half of the first intake of young cratchits to go to Quantico and to do the full FBI course in Quantico and this was the first group of foreign students who've ever been admitted to Quantico to do the full Quantico were you involved at what score's at that time yes sir and so you worked with President Mandela yes the set of the scorpions is untouchable skiing for the first time as a new democracy is emerging the landscape is certainly changing there's a transformation happening we all know the history laugh you don't watch Invictus probably great movie to do that you then worked with the Attorney General United States to cross-pollinate the folks in South Africa black officers law degrees Samar's fresh yes this unit with Quantico yes in the United States I had the privilege of attending the the graduation ceremony of the first of South African officers that completed the Quantico course and representing crow they on the day you had us relationships at that time to crawl across pollen I had the privilege of working with some of the best law enforcement officers and best intelligence officers that has come out of the u.s. services and they've been tremendous mentors in my career they've really shaped my thinking they've shaped my values and they've they've shaved my character so you're still under 30 at this time so give us a is that where this where are we in time now just about a 30 so you know around the nine late nineties still 90s yeah so client-server technologies there okay so also the story references Leonard McCarthy and these spy tapes what is this spy tape saga about it says you had a conversation with McCarthy me I'm thinking that a phone tap explain that spy tape saga what does it mean who's Lennon McCarthy explain yourself so so so Leonard McCarthy it's a US citizen today he served two terms as the vice president for institutional integrity at the World Bank which is the world's most important anti-corruption official he started his career as a prosecutor in South Africa many years ago and then became the head of the economic crimes division in the South African Justice Department and eventually became the head of the scorpions and many years after I've left Kroll and were no longer involved in in the work of the scorpions he texted me one evening expressing a concern and an anxiety that I had about the safety of his family and I replied to him with two text messages one was a Bible verse and the other one was a Latin saying and my advice name was follow the rule of law and put the safety of your family first and that was the advice I gave him so this is how I imagined the year I think of it the internet was just there this was him this was roundabout 2000 December 2007 okay so there was I phone just hit so text messaging Nokia phones all those big yeah probably more text message there so you sitting anywhere in London you get a text message from your friend yep later this past late tonight asking for help and advice and I gave him the best advice I can he unfortunately was being wiretapped and those wiretaps were subsequently published and became the subject of much controversy they've now been scrutinized by South Africa's highest court and the court has decided that those wiretaps are of no impact and of importance in the scheme of judicial decision-making and our unknown provenance and on and on unknown reliability they threw it out basically yeah they're basically that's the president he had some scandals priors and corruption but back to the tapes you the only involvement on the spy tapes was friend sending you a text message that says hey I'm running a corruption you know I'm afraid for my life my family what do I do and you give some advice general advice and that's it as there was there any more interactions with us no that's it that's it okay so you weren't like yeah working with it hey here's what we get strategy there was nothing that going on no other interactions just a friendly advice and that's what they put you I gave him my I gave him my best advice when you when you work in when you work as an investigator very much as and it's very similar in venture capital it's all about relationships and you want to preserve relationships for the long term and you develop deep royalties to its people particularly people with whom you've been through difficult situations as I have been with Leonard much earlier on when I was still involved in Kroll and giving advice to South African government on issues related to the scorpius so that that has a lot of holes and I did think that was kind of weird they actually can produce the actual tax I couldn't find that the spy tapes so there's a spy tape scandal out there your name is on out on one little transaction globbed on to you I mean how do you feel about that I mean you must've been pretty pissed when you saw that when you do it when when you do when you do investigative work you see really see everything and all kinds of things and the bigger the issues that you deal with the more frequently you see things that other people might find unusual I are you doing any work right now with c5 at South Africa and none whatsoever so I've I retired from my investigative Korea in 2014 I did terrific 20 years as an investigator during my time as investigator I came to understood the importance of digital and cyber and so at the end of it I saw an opportunity to serve a sector that historically have been underserved with capital which is cyber security and of course there are two areas very closely related to cyber security artificial intelligence and cloud and that's why I created c5 after I sold my investigator firm with five other families who equally believed in the importance of investing private capital to make a difference invest in private capital to help bring about innovation that can bring stability to the digital world and that's the mission of c-5 before I get to the heart news I want to drill in on the BBC stories I think that's really the focal point of you know why we're talking just you know from my standpoint I remember living as a young person in that time breaking into the business you know my 20s and 30s you had Live Aid in 1985 and you had 1995 the internet happened there was so much going on between those that decade 85 to 95 you were there I was an American so I didn't really have a lot exposure I did some work for IBM and Europe in 1980 says it's co-op student but you know I had some peak in the international world it must been pretty dynamic the cross-pollination the melting pot of countries you know the Berlin Wall goes down you had the cold war's ending you had apartheid a lot of things were going on around you yes so in that dynamic because if if the standard is you had links to someone you know talked about why how important it was that this melting pot and how it affected your relationships and how it looks now looking back because now you can almost tie anything to anything yes so I think the 90s was one of the most exciting periods of time because you had the birth of the internet and I started working on Internet related issues yet 20 million users today we have three and a half billion users and ten billion devices unthinkable at the time but in the wake of the internet also came a lot of changes as you say the Berlin Wall came down democracy in South Africa the Oslo peace process in the time that I worked in Kroll some of them made most important and damaging civil wars in Africa came to an end including the great war in the Congo peace came to Sudan and Angola the Ivory Coast so a lot of things happening and if you have a if you had a an international career at that time when globalization was accelerating you got to no a lot of people in different markets and both in crow and in my consulting business a key part of what it but we did was to keep us and Western corporations that were investing in emerging markets safe your credibility has been called in questions with this article and when I get to in a second what I want to ask you straight up is it possible to survive in the international theatre to the level that you're surviving if what they say is true if you if you're out scamming people or you're a bad actor pretty much over the the time as things get more transparent it's hard to survive right I mean talk about that dynamic because I just find it hard to believe that to be successful the way you are it's not a johnny-come-lately firms been multiple years operating vetted by the US government are people getting away in the shadows is it is is it hard because I almost imagine those are a lot of arbitrage I imagine ton of arbitrage that you that are happening there how hard or how easy it is to survive to be that shady and corrupt in this new era because with with with investigated with with intelligence communities with some terrific if you follow the money now Bitcoin that's a whole nother story but that's more today but to survive the eighties and nineties and to be where you are and what they're alleging I just what's your thoughts well to be able to attract capital and investors you have to have very high standards of governance and compliance because ultimately that's what investors are looking for and what investors will diligence when they make an investment with you so to carry the confidence of investors good standards of governance and compliance are of critical importance and raising venture capital and Europe is tough it's not like the US babe there's an abundance of venture capital available it's very hard Europe is under served by capital the venture capital invested in the US market is multiple of what we invest in Europe so you need to be even more focused on governance and compliance in Europe than you would be perhaps on other markets I think the second important point with Gmail John is that technology is brought about a lot of transparency and this is a major area of focus for our piece tech accelerator where we have startups who help to bring transparency to markets which previously did not have transparency for example one of the startups that came through our accelerator has brought complete transparency to the supply chain for subsistence farmers in Africa all the way to to the to the shelf of Walmart or a big grocery retailer in in the US or Europe and so I think technology is bringing a lot more more transparency we also have a global anti-corruption Innovation Challenge called shield in the cloud where we try and find and recognize the most innovative corporations governments and countries in the space so let's talk about the BBC story that hit 12 it says is a US military cloud the DoD Jedi contractor that's coming to award the eleventh hour safe from Russia fears over sensitive data so if this essentially the headline that's bolded says a technology company bidding for a Pentagon contract that's Amazon Web Services to store sensitive data has close partnerships with a firm linked to a sanctioned Russian oligarch the BBC has learned goes on to essentially put fear and tries to hang a story that says the national security of America is at risk because of c5u that's what we're talking about right now so so what's your take on this story I mean did you wake up and get an email said hey check out the BBC you're featured in and they're alleging that you have links to Russia and Amazon what Jon first I have to go I first have to do a disclosure I've worked for the BBC as an investigator when I was in Kroll and in fact I let the litigation support for the BBC in the biggest libel claim in British history which was post 9/11 when the BBC did a broadcast mistakenly accusing a mining company in Africa of laundering money for al-qaeda and so I represented the BBC in this case I was the manager hired you they hired me to delete this case for them and I'm I helped the BBC to reduce a libel claim of 25 million dollars to $750,000 so I'm very familiar with the BBC its integrity its standards and how it does things and I've always held the BBC in the highest regard and believed that the BBC makes a very important contribution to make people better informed about the world so when I heard about the story I was very disappointed because it seemed to me that the BBC have compromised the independence and the independence of the editorial control in broadcasting the story the reason why I say that is because the principal commentator in this story as a gentleman called John Wheeler who's familiar to me as a someone who's been trolling our firm on internet for the last year making all sorts of allegations the BBC did not disclose that mr. Weiler is a former Oracle executive the company that's protesting the Jedi bidding contract and secondly that he runs a lobbying firm with paid clients and that he himself often bid for government contracts in the US government context you're saying that John Wheeler who's sourced in the story has a quote expert and I did check him out I did look at what he was doing I checked out his Twitter he seems to be trying to socialise a story heavily first he needed eyes on LinkedIn he seems to be a consultant firm like a Beltway yes he runs a he runs a phone called in interoperability Clearing House and a related firm called the IT acquisition Advisory Council and these two organizations work very closely together the interoperability Clearing House or IC H is a consulting business where mr. Weiler acts for paying clients including competitors for this bidding contract and none of this was disclosed by the BBC in their program the second part of this program that I found very disappointing was the fact that the BBC in focusing on the Russian technology parks cocuwa did not disclose the list of skok of our partners that are a matter of public record on the Internet if you look at this list very closely you'll see c5 is not on there neither Amazon Web Services but the list of companies that are on there are very familiar names many of them competitors in this bidding process who acted as founding partners of skok about Oracle for example as recently as the 28th of November hosted what was described as the largest cloud computing conference in Russia's history at Skolkovo this is the this is the place which the BBC described as this notorious den of spies and at this event which Oracle hosted they had the Russian presidential administration on a big screen as one of their clients in Russia so some Oracle is doing business in Russia they have like legit real links to Russia well things you're saying if they suddenly have very close links with Skolkovo and so having a great many other Khayyam is there IBM Accenture cisco say Microsoft is saying Oracle is there so Skolkovo has a has a very distinguished roster of partners and if the BBC was fair and even-handed they would have disclosed us and they would have disclosed the fact that neither c5 nor Amazon feature as Corcovado you feel that the BBC has been duped the BBC clearly has been duped the program that they broadcasted is really a parlor game of six degrees of separation which they try to spun into a national security crisis all right so let's tell us John while ago you're saying John Wyler who's quoted in the story as an expert and by the way I read in the story my favorite line that I wanted to ask you on was there seems to be questions being raised but the question is being raised or referring to him so are you saying that he is not an expert but a plant for the story what's what's his role he's saying he works for Oracle or you think do you think he's being paid by Oracle like I can't comment on mr. Wireless motivation what strikes me is the fact that is a former Oracle executive what's striking is that he clearly on his website for the IC H identifies several competitors for the Jedi business clients and that all of this should have been disclosed by the BBC rather than to try and characterize and portray him as an independent expert on this story well AWS put out a press release or a blog post essentially hum this you know you guys had won it we're very clear and this I know it goes to the top because that's how Amazon works nothing goes out until it goes to the top which is Andy chassis and the senior people over there it says here's the relationship with c5 and ATS what school you use are the same page there but also they hinted the old guard manipulation distant I don't think they use the word disinformation campaign they kind of insinuate it and that's what I'm looking into I want to ask you are you part are you a victim of a disinformation campaign do you believe that you're not a victim being targeted with c5 as part of a disinformation campaign put on by a competitor to AWS I think what we've seen over the course of this last here is an enormous amount of disinformation around this contract and around this bidding process and they've a lot of the information that has been disseminated has not only not been factual but in some cases have been patently malicious well I have been covering Amazon for many many years this guy Tom Wyler is in seems to be circulating multiple reports invested in preparing for this interview I checked Vanity Fair he's quoted in Vanity Fair he's quoted in the BBC story and there's no real or original reporting other than those two there's some business side our article which is just regurgitating the Business Insider I mean the BBC story and a few other kind of blog stories but no real original yes no content don't so in every story that that's been written on this subject and as you say most serious publication have thrown this thrown these allegations out but in the in those few instances where they've managed to to publish these allegations and to leverage other people's credibility to their advantage and leverage other people's credibility for their competitive advantage John Wheeler has been the most important and prominent source of the allegations someone who clearly has vested commercial interests someone who clearly works for competitors as disclosed on his own website and none of this has ever been surfaced or addressed I have multiple sources have confirmed to me that there's a dossier that has been created and paid for by a firm or collection of firms to discredit AWS I've seen some of the summary documents of that and that is being peddled around to journalists we have not been approached yet I'm not sure they will because we actually know the cloud what cloud computing is so I'm sure we could debunk it by just looking at it and what they were putting fors was interesting is this an eleventh-hour a desperation attempt because I have the Geo a report here that was issued under Oracle's change it says there are six conditions why we're looking at one sole cloud although it's not a it's a multiple bid it's not an exclusive to amazon but so there's reasons why and they list six service levels highly specialized check more favorable terms and conditions with a single award expected cause of administration of multiple contracts outweighs the benefits of multiple awards the projected orders are so intricately related that only a single contractor can reasonably be perform the work meaning that Amazon has the only cloud that can do that work now I've reported on the cube and it's looking angle that it's true there's things that other clouds just don't have anyone has private they have the secret the secret clouds the total estimated value of the contract is less than the simplified acquisition threshold or multiple awards would not be in the best interest this is from them this is a government report so it seems like there's a conspiracy against Amazon where you are upon and in in this game collect you feel that collateral damage song do you do you believe that to be true collateral damage okay well okay so now the the John Wheeler guys so investigate you've been an investigator so you mean you're not you know you're not a retired into this a retired investigator you're retired investigated worked on things with Nelson Mandela Kroll Janet Reno Attorney General you've vetted by the United States government you have credibility you have relationships with people who have have top-secret clearance all kinds of stuff but I mean do you have where people have top-secret clearance or or former people who had done well we have we have the privilege of of working with a very distinguished group of senior national security leaders as operating partisan c5 and many of them have retained their clearances and have been only been able to do so because c5 had to pass through a very deep vetting process so for you to be smeared like this you've been in an investigative has you work at a lot of people this is pretty obvious to you this is like a oh is it like a deep state conspiracy you feel it's one vendor - what is your take and what does collateral damage mean to you well I recently spoke at the mahkum conference on a session on digital warfare and one of the key points I made there was that there are two things that are absolutely critical for business leaders and technology leaders at this point in time one we have to clearly say that our countries are worth defending we can't walk away from our countries because the innovation that we are able to build and scale we're only able to do because we live in democracies and then free societies that are governed by the rule of law the second thing that I think is absolutely crucial for business leaders in the technology community is to accept that there must be a point where national interest overrides competition it must be a point where we say the benefit and the growth and the success of our country is more important to us than making commercial profits and therefore there's a reason for us either to cooperate or to cease competition or to compete in a different way what might takes a little bit more simple than that's a good explanation is I find these smear campaigns and fake news and I was just talking with Kara Swisher on Twitter just pinging back and forth you know either journalists are chasing Twitter and not really doing the original courting or they're being fed stories if this is truly a smear campaign as being fed by a paid dossier then that hurts people when families and that puts corporate interests over the right thing so I think I a personal issue with that that's fake news that's just disinformation but it's also putting corporate inches over over families and people so I just find that to be kind of really weird when you say collateral damage earlier what did you mean by that just part of the campaign you personally what's what's your view okay I think competition which is not focused on on performance and on innovation and on price points that's competition that's hugely destructive its destructive to the fabric of innovation its destructive of course to the reputation of the people who fall in the line of sight of this kind of competition but it's also hugely destructive to national interest Andrae one of the key stories here with the BBC which has holes in it is that the Amazon link which we just talked about but there's one that they bring up that seems to be core in all this and just the connections to Russia can you talk about your career over the career from whether you when you were younger to now your relationship with Russia why is this Russian angle seems to be why they bring into the Russia angle into it they seem to say that c-5 Cable has connections they call deep links personal links into Russia so to see what that so c5 is a venture capital firm have no links to Russia c5 has had one individual who is originally of Russian origin but it's been a longtime Swiss resident and you national as a co investor into a enterprise software company we invested in in 2015 in Europe we've since sold that company but this individual Vladimir Kuznetsov who's became the focus of the BBC's story was a co investor with us and the way in which we structure our investment structures is that everything is transparent so the investment vehicle for this investment was a London registered company which was on the records of Companies House not an offshore entity and when Vladimir came into this company as a co investor for compliance and regulatory purposes we asked him to make his investment through this vehicle which we controlled and which was subject to our compliance standards and completely transparent and in this way he made this investment now when we take on both investors and Co investors we do that subject to very extensive due diligence and we have a very robust and rigorous due diligence regime which in which our operating partners who are leaders of great experience play an important role in which we use outside due diligence firms to augment our own judgment and to make sure we have all the facts and finally we also compare notes with other financial institutions and peers and having done that with Vladimir Kuznetsov when he made this one investment with us we reached the conclusion that he was acting in his own right as an independent angel investor that his left renova many years ago as a career executive and that he was completely acceptable as an investor so that you think that the BBC is making an inaccurate Association the way they describe your relationship with Russia absolutely the the whole this whole issue of the provenance of capital has become of growing importance to the venture capital industry as you and I discussed earlier with many more different sources of capital coming out of places like China like Russia Saudi Arabia other parts of the world and therefore going back again to you the earlier point we discussed compliance and due diligence our critical success factors and we have every confidence in due diligence conclusions that we reached about vladimir quits net source co-investment with us in 2015 so I did some digging on c5 razor bidco this was the the portion of the company in reference to the article I need to get your your take on this and they want to get you on the record on this because it's you mentioned I've been a law above board with all the compliance no offshore entities this is a personal investment that he made Co investment into an entity you guys set up for the transparency and compliance is that true that's correct no side didn't see didn't discover this would my my children could have found this this this company was in a transparent way on the records in Companies House and and Vladimir's role and investment in it was completely on the on the public record all of this was subject to financial conduct authority regulation and anti money laundering and no your client standards and compliance so there was no great big discovery this was all transparent all out in the open and we felt very confident in our due diligence findings and so you feel very confident Oh issue there at all special purpose none whatsoever is it this is classic this is international finance yes sir so in the venture capital industry creating a special purpose vehicle for a particular investment is a standard practice in c-five we focus on structuring those special-purpose vehicles in the most transparent way possible and that was his money from probably from Russia and you co invested into this for this purpose of doing these kinds of deals with Russia well we just right this is kind of the purpose of that no no no this so in 2015 we invested into a European enterprise software company that's a strategic partner of Microsoft in Scandinavian country and we invested in amount of 16 million pounds about at the time just more than 20 million dollars and subsequent in August of that year that Amir Kuznetsov having retired for nova and some time ago in his own right as an angel investor came in as a minority invest alongside us into this investment but we wanted to be sure that his investment was on our control and subject to our compliance standards so we requested him to make his investment through our special purpose vehicle c5 raised a bit co this investment has since been realized it's been a great success and this business is going on to do great things and serve great clients it c5 taking russian money no see if I was not taking Russian money since since the onset of sanctions onboarding Russian money is just impossible sanctions have introduced complexity and have introduced regulatory risk related to Russian capital and so we've taken a decision that we will not and we can't onboard Russian capital and sanctions have also impacted my investigative career sanctions have also completely changed because what the US have done very effectively is to make sanctions a truly global regime and in which ever country are based it doesn't really matter you have to comply with US sanctions this is not optional for anybody on any sanctions regime including the most recent sanctions on Iran so if there are sanctions in place you can't touch it have you ever managed Russian oligarchs money or interests at any time I've never managed a Russian oligarchs money at any point in time I served for a period of a year honest on the board of a South African mining company in which Renova is a minority invest alongside an Australian company called South 32 and the reason why I did this was because of my support for African entrepreneurship this was one of the first black owned mining companies in South Africa that was established with a British investment in 2004 this business have just grown to be a tremendous success and so for a period of a year I offered to help them on the board and to support them as they as they looked at how they can grow and scale the business I have a couple more questions Gabe so I don't know if you wanna take a break you want to keep let's take a break okay let's take a quick break do a quick break I think that's great that's the meat of it great job by the way fantastic lady here thanks for answering those questions the next section I want to do is compliment

(upbeat techno music) >> Live from Bahrain, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Summit Bahrain. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Okay welcome back everyone, we are here in Bahrain for exclusive coverage for AWS Summit, part of Amazon's new region being launched here in the Middle East. I'm John Furrier, your host, we have two great guests from C5 Accelerator in Washington D.C., now kicking it out in Bahrain. Hadyah Fathalla, executive director C5 Accelerate and Eva Dimitriadis, good to see you again. >> Thank you. >> Chief operating officer. >> Great to be here. >> Guys, congratulations. Bahrain, D.C. >> The world. >> The world, it's global. >> Thank you, yeah. >> C5 Global. >> It's great to be here. >> It's an exciting time. I mean, I got to ask you Eva, because we had previously met, talked about interviews in D.C. Smart people that known Amazon, because Teresa and Andy Jassy and Jeff Bezos always say, "We're going to be misunderstood for a while." Come on, that's not true. (laughing) A region in this area is going to explode the entrepreneurial scene. What's your take? >> I think that's absolutely true. As we see today at the Summit, there's just such a growing number of entrepreneurs and people who are excited to embrace digital innovation. Three years ago I think the story would have been different but ever since we set up the accelerator here, which was the first once in Bahrain, we've just seen an explosion of interest and not just from Bahrain but from around the GCC. Even start ups from abroad coming and setting up here as their Middle East practice. >> Talk about C5 for a second. Let's take a minute, to explain what you guys do. I jumped ahead a little bit because I'm excited because I just love the entrepreneurial energy. This is a really important thing happening and you guys are playing a role. Talk about C5 Accelerate, what are you guys doin'? What's your business model? Just take a minute to explain as a set up. >> So I'll let Eva talk maybe more about our global operations but really C5 Accelerate a few years ago, branch the business which was largely an investment business, including innovation business and we built Bahrain's first and one the regions, in fact, first cloud enabled accelerators and Bahrain's very first technology accelerator and we did that in partnership with the Economic Development Board, the labor firm Tamkeen and obviously with AWS. Really we benefited from the first mover advantage and the thinking around that was that as Amazon grows it's geographic footprint there is great opportunity to build on the cloud in places like the Middle East where the ecosystem is nascent and there is an amazing first mover advantage. >> Yeah. >> So when we partnered with the government to build this, we realized as we do that, we also need to contribute to building a healthy ecosystem so we built this first accelerator and we have felt-- >> When was that, by the way? >> 2016. >> Great, thank you. >> Actually September marks our two year. We've since graduated five cohorts. We're gearing up for six and we have 34 start ups under our belt. Our first cohort was an all Bahraini cohort and today we're very proud to say that actually half of the start ups that have graduated from this program that is based out of Bahrain are international start ups. That's what we're doing locally. Maybe Eva can tell you a little bit more about what we're doing on a global scale. >> You know and that's important. I want to make sure you got that out about having a bunch of start ups under your belt because when I went to the start up Bahrain session yesterday I was really, really impressed by two things. One is, just the smart energy, the smart people who like understand entrepreneurship. Either went to school for it or have learned through the scar tissue of trial and tribulations like myself. And then the entrepreneurs were there themselves. >> Mm-hmm. >> And you know a healthy entrepreneurial community when they start bitchin' and moanin', they're all chirping away, they're hungry. There's a hungry appetite for entrepreneurship here and creating but it's not fake entrepreneurship. They're really hungry. They're, where's the cash? Where's the capital? So this is really a positive sign. >> It is and I want to add something really quick before Eva jumps in, I think in the past two years what's great about a small ecosystem and the ability to pivot and build fast is you actually see the impact that you can have as an individual and as a company and as a community really on the landscape. But also regionally we've had great collaborative efforts across the GCC and in the region with partners in Saudi and Kuwait and Egypt and in Jordan so I think there's a lot of momentum that we're riding on now, and I think it's a great time to be building in the tech space. >> Well Eva, before you get to your comments. I just want to follow up on the comment around Saudi and different regions because this is a trend that has been happening for a while in Silicon Valley, as you know. People have been leaving Silicon Valley, because it's cost to live there, but people have been putting engineering teams outside of Silicon Valley. I mean, 20 years ago, you only went outside of Silicon Valley or the US to outsource which is not really product development, it's just coding. Then the trend became real engineering and product development, real chops outside. We just had Abdul on from Saudi and he was talking about his shape of his team, the psychology, the make up of the people, it's just not in Saudi Arabia. It's in China, it's all over the world. As developers are working across the world, this is a really big deal. I mean this is the new dynamic. >> Yep. >> Diverse teams, geo located, no borders, this is going to change the political landscape. It's a cultural shift. >> Definitely, I mean I think it's a while before we have here the same secret sauce that exists in Silicon Valley or that has existed there for the past decade or so. But the emphasis on training and upscaling is huge and as we've heard a number of times today, there are so many incentives to do so for free so you can actually learn to code, you can become a certified AWS coder for free in Bahrain. Which is a phenomenal advantage and step up. I mean, no one would pay me to do that in the UK. I think that, along with a number of other initiatives are really going to leap frog the development here. And in terms of what you talk about, the sort of the landscape and geo location, it goes in so many different directions now. There's no single focus so we had a Swiss company last year come and incorporate in Bahrain, and hire developers here to grow their business. It can go in so many different directions. >> Yeah, the winner take all business model is an old business model and now it's everyone's winning so it's a little bit of flattening of the wealth and the opportunities but the pie is getting bigger. >> Yes. >> I think this is the dynamic that cloud and Amazon continues to demonstrate that the Oracles, for instance, of the world, we got to win it all, lock everyone in and we got to own it. That ethos is not, that dog's not hunting, as they say. This is changing the entrepreneurial landscape and the other thing I observe is the younger generation. Leveling up is very easy to them. It's like a video game, right? Leveling up is AI, blockchain, I think one of your companies I talked to, oh we're doing a blockchain implementation. They will eat up the cloud. >> Mm. >> I mean it's going to be like, pretty fast. >> You mentioned-- >> So I'm expecting some accelerated. >> Definitely. I mean you mentioned hungry but they're also fearless. The entrepreneurs that we work with have that perfect mix of a super smart idea and an understanding of a niche sector of the market but also this resilience and recklessness that you need to embrace the opportunity. And all the scary stuff that comes with it. >> And I think adding to that, I think what's great with Amazon coming to Bahrain, with us working across the globe, it's a cross pollination that happens because whether we like it or not, like Eva said, we are not Silicon Valley yet and maybe we don't aspire to be specifically Silicon Valley and we want to build our own unique ecosystem but the lessons learned from the likes of Silicon Valley and London and Singapore and China and everywhere else in the world. >> Yeah. >> Really helps build, not just the skills required but the grit that could otherwise be absent. >> The grit's key, yeah. >> And it can engender the kind of cultural shift that's necessary so you need, so you can develop these robust and resilient qualities that are necessary for a founder. >> Well, that's a really great point. I moved from the east coast in the US to California with my first start up because that's where the action was and I can tell ya, I've been there 20 years and I've been an entrepreneur doing things ever since. And there's a fallacy of trying to emulate Silicon Valley. Every i dotted, t crossed and trying to take the playbook. There's no direct match, however, there's some consistencies in there. That's grit, creativity, openness, capital markets and community and this is something that you guys kind of have in place. And then adapting that to your culture. Now I will say that my impression here is it feels a little bit Silicon Valley because it's a little bit more open and loose. People like to go fast. Fast and loose is the Silicon Valley way. Dubai's a little bit more like New York to me. So I can feel more, valley-like here. I'm not saying that Dubai's bad, I'm just saying it's different cultures. Bigger, its more ... >> There's definitely a lot of agility here. I think one of the other advantages which leads back into what C5 is as a whole, we're primarily an investment business. We have a venture capital fund based in the UK. What we're really looking for is investible, scalable business models where we're de risking the cost of capital with cloud computing because that is how ultimately these start ups scale. Another benefit that we really see in this market is value for money. If you're a start up in Silicon Valley and you get to the stage that some of our start ups get to when they finish their program, your valuation is pretty much always triple what we would see here, so valuation's a very sensitive subject. Our start ups hate talking about it. We structure our deals with them in a way that generally avoids having a valuation. >> It's very easy to do business here. You just keep on increasing the valuation, all the stars will come dropping to your doorstep. >> It's a nuanced area. >> Yeah. >> But that being said, you can get really good value for money businesses but more importantly you're investing in the teams and the entrepreneurs and there's no shortage of that here. >> Let's talk about the ecosystem here and then let's talk about the women in tech because one of the things that blew me away yesterday was Teresa Carlson held a women breakfast and for the first time I got kicked off a table because they wanted to make room for the workshop. >> Sorry about that. (laughing) >> I'm like, wait a minute. This is not an inclusive environment. Sorry, no, we need the table. Okay, I know, I was happy to tap out. But I wasn't expecting that and the energy and the, just really, again, this event, they had to lock the doors for the keynote so there's really a big interest across the board. Talk about the ecosystem and then the women in tech situation. >> So I think the ecosystem is an interesting question because, I mean, we work very collaboratively. Like I said, even though this initiative largely was kind of envisioned by the government and mainly by the Economic Development Board and I'm sure you got a chance to speak to Khalid Humaidan, he might have given you a bit of an idea of how this started off but really the EBD threw this idea of start up Bahrain to the community and said, "Look, you guys lead on it." And it took a little bit of time for the community to figure out what that really means and what it's going to look like but it really made the community and ourselves also think pragmatically about what we want this ecosystem to look like. So even though it's not as mature, like I said, as other ecosystems further away and especially in the west, it is coming together very nicely because it's coming together as a collaborative effort. You see a very good continuous consultative work between private sector, public sector, the start ups and then the other stakeholders, including ourselves, and academia. We still have a long way to go, I think specially in areas and this is something that I always emphasize, is to shift the culture you really need to start at a much younger age so at schools, at universities. We engage with them and are keen to do more on that front but I think we are laying the foundation for what I hope in the next five, 10 years will be a pretty competitive entrepreneurial and start up-- >> It might be sooner. >> Hopefully sooner. >> Yeah. >> I think we have the right recipe now to build a robust ecosystem. >> Yeah, I can say I can attest to that after what I saw yesterday. Your thoughts? >> Yeah I mean our team in Bahrain is 100% Bahraini. I'm based in London, but Hadyah here leads a phenomenal team who are all Bahraini citizens. Being the island that it is, we know everybody so Hadyah's done an excellent job of engaging with everyone from schools to universities to post grads to public sector, private sector. So really all the stakeholders in the ecosystem are engaged and everyone from the oil and gas industry to the finance sphere are thinking about how innovation can advance their businesses so that they don't get left behind at the train station. >> Yeah. >> It's really top of mind and top of agenda which is a very invigorating scenario. I think, going back to some of the initiatives, from bankruptcy laws to having a fintech bay with the Central Bank of Bahrain, there's just so much, like they're constantly pushing the envelope to make this a friendly environment for entrepreneurs to come and do business. >> And I want to add one thing. There's always this question of, does government have a role to drive innovation and create an ecosystem? >> They do. >> I think Bahrain is a good example for others in the region and even beyond to say actually government does have an important role. >> They do. >> If you look at Bahrain, it's government that has been very flexible and nimble in terms of moving to accommodate. Whether it's the new bankruptcy laws or allowing for the fintech sandbox and a cloud first policy and shaping the start up Bahrain. The government has taken the lead on a lot of these initiatives so it's a good example of how there can be a top down approach to building an entrepreneurial landscape but also where the bottom needs to come and meet the top so I think Bahrain a good example. >> Just to reiterate, my observation is that they know how to get things going and sponsor but they're also listening and self aware and even on theCUBE here, we heard comments like, we'll get out of the way. >> Mm-hmm. >> Now that's the difference between good judgment. >> Mm-hmm. >> You know? And, no, no I funded you, I own you, I mean I've seen that in the public sector or, we're going to fund you as an NGO and then I kind of own you so come to my receptions and be my show horse-- >> Mascot. >> Show all of my people how good I am, donating money. So there's a little bit of a balance between enabling. >> Yep. >> But at the end of the day, this is going to be a fast pace and that's where I think the speed, knowing when to get out of the way and letting the community go. I mean, people like speed here. Cars are driving fast, you got a Formula 1 race track up at 14 months. >> They like speed but sometimes things are surprisingly slow. >> Yes. >> So it's incredible that we are where we are. You asked about women in tech and I think there's something there that we're really proud of. C5 globally, 43% of the start up founders that we've supported through our accelerators are women. In terms of diversity, we're thrilled about that statistic. We'd like it be 50%. >> Yep. >> And I think that the Middle East, we're seeing so much hunger from women entrepreneurs and women who want to learn to code to be founders and we want to do everything in our power to enable that. >> Computer science degrees coming out of the university? >> Absolutely. Hadyah here had this fantastic idea a year ago to found what we call C5 Nebula. I'll let Hadyah talk about why we came up with that name and how it relates to our business but this is now a new stream of our business which really it's a membership platform where all women globally are invited to join and we provide education, upscaling, jogs, connectivity, mentorships and through this network we are allowing a complete globalization of the talent and skills that we have. >> Yeah. >> So you can be a student in D.C. wanting to come and volunteer to work for a company here and we will make that match happen. I think it's a very exciting phase for us and we've seen so much demand for this program. Maybe Hadyah can talk about why we came up with this name? >> Yeah, so like Eva said, we, I'm Bahraini, we've always had, we've been lucky to have been pioneering and have work very closely men and have had really equal opportunity but in industries like tech, globally, women's representation is lower than that of men and there are areas where there's still work to be done. >> A lot of work to be done, yeah. >> So last year, actually, with the first AWS Summit, when Teresa was out here, we figured we do a women in tech breakfast. When we were curating that guest list we couldn't find that many women and we didn't know if wasn't that we didn't know them or that they didn't exist and we realized really we need to put together something to bring all the women together and work more closely so we built Nebula, really to, like Eva said, do three things and a little more. One is the connectivity side of things and then the upscaling but also to raise awareness and appreciation. >> What is Nebula? >> What is? >> What is Nebula? >> So Nebula, scientifically it's an astrological, astronomical phenomenon-- >> But it's your network group, is that what it's called? >> It's a platform. >> Okay. >> So it's actually been officially launched three weeks ago, you can go online and visit it and it's a platform that allows you to become a member of Nebula and gives you access to mentorship, to opportunities to upscale and train but also to raise awareness and appreciation for the amazing opportunities for women in the tech space. >> Is there a URL? >> There is a URL, it's-- >> We've been debating what is is today. (laughing) >> It's www.c5nebula.com. >> Okay, I'll put it up, publish it with the video. >> And what it means, it's the Latin word for cloud and it's where stars are born. >> Yeah. It's also, what's important, is it's a compilation of a bunch of different clouds and electrons and it's a mess, it's a bit of a mess but it's a lot of forces working together and I guess the moral of the story is, we can create stars in the space but we all have to work together and it all has to come together to-- >> And it's powerful when you work together. >> Only 10% of VC funding worldwide goes to women founder companies and 1% of that goes to women of color so there's some staggering statistics there. Globally, this is not a Middle East problem, this is globally a real big area of disparity that we're trying to help address. >> Well you guys know our door's open in California and Boston, and certainly the women in tech, we got a big network, we can merge them into the Nebula connect our networks. >> We would love that. >> We would love that. >> We're open and anything you guys have to share with us we love co-creating with the communities, that's what we do at theCUBE. Thanks for coming on and sharing. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you, John. It's been a pleasure. >> You got a great mission. Big supporter. C5 Accelerate, they're the ones on the ground, making things happen, gettin' those sparks of entrepreneurship and helping them capture them into one community, create some energy and some momentum and help people create value and also capture the value, that's what it's all about here. You got Amazon Web Services' region in the Middle East, CUBE coverage continues after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

>> Live, from Bahrain it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Summit Bahrain. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. It's the theCUBE's coverage here, in Bahrain, in the Middle East, for our coverage of AWS Summit and the announcement, and now soon to be up-and-running in 2019 in Q1, Amazon Web Services, full region here in the Middle East. Should have a massive impact to the ecosystem, and companies and entrepreneurs from around the borders. We've got great conversations all day. And today we've got to great guests here, Emilio Valdes, VP of EMEA South and Latin America for Informatica. Thank you for theCUBE sponsorships over the years. We've covered Informatica shows all over the world. Mathew Joseph, business head of Data Analytics for Wipro. Good to see you, thanks for joining us. >> It's a pleasure. >> Same >> Great to be here. >> So, Informatica, we know a lot about you. We cover all of your big events in North America, I interviewed your CEO, I've been following the value proposition, growing really well, you've got a good product offering. But we're in the Middle East, okay? And what I've learned here is that there's a thirst for entrepreneurship. There's a thirst for cloud. But everyone's talking about data. And if data's the new oil, no better place to be than in the Middle East. They know the value of oil. What's going on in town here? What's happening in the Middle East? >> Right, so, as I cover a pretty big area within Informatica, I used to travel the world and meet many customers, in many places, many customers and many industries here in the Middle East. And I can tell you that, you know, the story, the messages are very consistent, you know? Every company, every industry, is going through a massive period of change, and companies are reacting to this change very differently. What we've seen is that the disrupters are going to be the ones that will, you know, implement digital transformation consistently, and we believe that data is the key driver for intelligent digital transformation. Here in the Middle East is no different. We've been seeing this across the different countries, in Dubai, in Bahrain, in Kuwait, in Saudi Arabia, exactly the same as everywhere else in the world. >> And cloud's now coming in full throttle at Amazon, You guys are not new to Amazon. I know you guys do a ton of work with Amazon integrating and putting all this together, what do you think is going to happen, here? Now Amazon gets up and running, they're already using a cloud now, so Bahrain's clear, cloud first. Saudi's got the cloud bug too, they're doing great things. So when an actual region comes here, what do you think is going to happen? An explosion of innovation and more business? What's going to be the impact? >> Well I think, I think the market knows what the benefits they can get out of the AWS platform, and I believe the challenges are related to get the most out of this AWS platform. At Informatica, we are going to help customers to move their data to the cloud in a consistent manner that is connected, articulated, properly governed, and not only this, but also we believe that the key value is in the hybrid world. The world hasn't moved to the cloud yet, entirely, so most companies continue to have some on-premise applications, as well as their cloud applications. So I believe that Informatica can help customers here in the Middle East, by connecting the on-premise world with the cloud world. And at the same time, the value they can get from our platform is by making AWS easy to operate, and, you know, move data to the cloud in a consistent, quick, and sustainable manner. >> So Matthew Joseph, you're with Wipro, why are you guys together, what's the relationship? Obviously we know what you guys do, you guys do great work, global, around the world. We see you at all the events. From SAP Sapphire, EMC World, now Dell World, Reinvent, you guys are everywhere. So here, what's going on here? I mean, analytics, you need analytics. You're good at analytics >> First of all, John, thanks a lot. A couple of thoughts. One, Wipro has been a global partner of AWS. Wipro's a global partner of Informatica. And the region is going through massive change of innovation, of using, consuming data. And at this point we really feel that both the expertises should come together to manage the change. And that's the simple reason why Informatica and Wipro are together, along with AWS and this, I would say a historical movement of this part of the world, to actually consume this rate and transfer the data for all of us. >> So if I asked you a question that said, hey, tell me about your relationship with Informatica. What's in it for me? What do you do for me? Are you, are you bringing it together? Are you guys going to market together? How do you, how do I win with you and Informatica? >> So what we have done is, as I told, the global partnership, across the globe, the best practices we're bringing back to this part of the world, to make sure that we have a similar set of stories across the global sphere. This certainly means more repeatability, less risk, and for the entire government to go through a small transition of going to the cloud. >> And data disruption is huge. You guys have Informatica 3.0, and you guys have your practice. When you put that together, what's the go to market? What's the value proposition? What's the pitch to the customer? >> So the key part is the IPaas method, the platform as a service message, right? With the platform as a service, it's a market that Gartner has identified as a $12.5 billion market. And it's growing very rapidly. Just to give you an idea, we process three trillion transactions per month, and this number is being multiplied by three every three to four months, right? So the iPaaS platform is what is going to help customers to move from the on-premise world, to the cloud. And this is where the key value Informatica, and Wipro, can put together to facilitate and to help enable customers in their journey to the cloud. >> So talk about the Amazon impact, obviously you guys do work with Amazon. What, specifically, does Amazon have that you guys like? That you work with the most with customers? Obviously they want to know, obviously you know, I got data, a ton of data. I've got to manage it. I mean, analytics are pretty good. You've got Sagemakers, Hotrock, on fire. Redshift everyone knows is doing well. Kinesis, with streaming. What's some of the Amazon tools you guys are working with around some of these day-to-day opportunities? >> Yeah, so there are multiple of them. In fact today's the day when the big data is pouring in, for example, right? So how do I really bring in all the data into a common platform? And today the customer is also talking about how do they really consume it? So consumption is a major attraction for AWS and how they really consume this data. The extraction, making sure the data is available, furthers decision making in the second part. The way Wipro and Informatica positions this entire journey is not just about putting the data into a common place and building up a transformation, right? What you're looking at is how do I really change the way the business works? And elements of design principal come in on it. And what Wipro has literally done is, we've done a lot of investments around how to I really make this transformation from a design-thinking point of view? How do I make sure the best practices of data science, and governance comes into it? How do I make sure that the press points for the customer are so clear and so vivid that decisions are made based on that? And I feel AWS, out in the region, is doing a great work on that. And that's the simple reason why all of us are together with that. >> That's great. And cloud, you guys are no stranger to Amazon. >> We are partner of Amazon. And we've been a partner of Amazon AWS for awhile. As well as Wipro is a partner of Amazon. And Informatica and Wipro are global partners as well. We're quite excited about bringing this partnership to the region. >> What sort of things that you guys have done together, can you share some examples of some awesome implementation and use cases? >> A few of them. So to me, what is happening, as I was earlier telling is that most of the government entities are talking about how do I really consume this data. How do I really think of it as an experience? So what we have really done is pull up this data, look at various models on how I can do revenue generation for the customer. How can I bring in more customers' recommendation? How do I make impactful decisions based on those data? And the ample amount of programs use cases that you have already implemented in this part of the world, and certainly Informatica has been a great help in this journey of ours. So the teams around which we look out, is data monetization, customizability, researching degree of the customer, operating efficiency, and this is true across industries. Government is doing a fabulous job of going on this journey but certainly we do a lot of work in the oil and gas sector, in the healthcare, and similar things like that. >> Awesome, and what's core value proposition that you guys are offering customers out here? >> I believe it's the messages we discussed earlier. It's having a consistent platform where data gets together and can be used across different applications, business units, et cetera. At the end of the day, end users will need to use data and they don't care where this data is stored. It could be in the cloud, it could on premise, it could be in a big data application, it doesn't really matter, you know? >> It could be addressable. >> Exactly >> In real time too in low latency. It can't be some data warehousing thing that takes, you know, real time application like a car needs data. IoT, a huge growth area. I mean these are new cloud architectural opportunities. You can't be having the old way. >> The data has to be connected, and secure, and clean, and available, and consistent. This is what we do for a business. >> Yeah you guys have got some good story there. Good luck with everything. I want to get your final questions as we kind of round down the day here. The day's kind of cleaning out here behind us. You can see it's getting quieter. What do you think about what's happening here? Amazon Web Services Summit, mix a little public sector, you've got some commercial, but this region pulsing with cloud demand. What do you think, guys? What's your thoughts? >> I think we're going to help the government to move to the cloud. We're very excited about the announcement that we heard this morning. The cloud-first policy. I think that Wipro and Informatica are uniquely positioned to give the government what they need to be successful in their cloud-first policy >> Thoughts? >> Same here, I think the last 24 months we have seen a lot of initiative from the government. Both across the artificial and then about data being the center of all things. And cloud is going to be a very pivotal role in this. And I think we are geared very well to take care of it. >> I think you guys are well positioned enough, you know. My translation is you see their cloud-first policy, they want to be involved in FinTech in the future, you got to have a data strategy to center the value proposition everything's got to be built around how that data's going to move, how it's going to be addressed, how it's going to be consumed, shared, connected. Across the board, IoT, on premises, real-time mobile, everything. >> And John, one more point, to close, would be what we see is the hybrid architecture coming up, alright? So cloud being one of them, the customers still want data inside the premises as well, so how do you really look at the hybrid architecture, and the challenges around it. I don't think there are many companies in this part of the world who are geared up to that. Wipro has done it multiple times, Informatica has been a leader in that. And I think that is going to be a game changer for all of us. >> You know Mathew you made me smile because, thank you for making me smile, because we always joke, and I always talk on theCUBE, and usually Dave Vellante's here and we kind of argue about it, because I say data is the new oil, he says it's not the new oil because oil can only be used in the car I guess, we can always go back and forth. But I've been saying that cloud is the future, I've been saying it for many years. Amazon certainly is more hardcore, Andy Jassy, all data systems moved to the cloud, What does that mean? Just announced RDS on VMware on premises, so it kind of like, takes that window, but I say that the cloud, operationally, is what's going on. People are moving to operations that are cloud-linked. So if everything is running cloud operations, DevOps, infrastructure as code, AI, all the things that you guys are working on, that means that the data center and on-premises, is an edge device. Or is it? It's a big fat edge. Or what's the difference between a windmill and an on-premise campus? I mean, edges? So, this is the debate we've been having. What is an edge? >> The way we see it is customers having a journey, in a journey to the cloud. And the state of the art is very different. We're happy to help customers to go through this journey efficiently, quickly, and in a consistent manner. >> And all serious, putting the fun kind of comment aside about the argument we had about the edge, is that the architecture that we see people are going to is, don't let some pre-defined thing define where the data has to go. So this data out there, it's got to move around. And if you don't want it to move around, then you put Compute to it. So there's all kinds of things going on where you don't have to get dogmatic about it. >> Absolutely >> What the definition is. It's all running cloud operations, then it's cloud, right? I mean it's not on-premises operations, no one says that. Anyway thanks for coming on theCUBE, thanks for sharing. Great to see Informatica here, great to see Wipro. We've got to get more of these use cases, if we had more time we would. This is theCUBE coverage, here, in Bahrain for Amazon Web Services Summit. Stay with us for more coverage after this break. (electronic music)

(upbeat electronic music) >> Live from Bahrain. It's theCUBE. Covering AWS summit Bahrain. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> And welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage here in Bahrain for the exclusive coverage of the AWS's summit and their announcement and their execution of a new region which should be online here in early 2019. I'm John Furrier, your host with SiliconANGLE Media theCUBE, extracting the signal from the noise, meeting all the people. First time the Middle East and the region should be a big impact, having a digital footprint as size of Amazon Web Services, bringing energy and entrepreneurship and innovation and economic revitalization and enablement. We'd love the coverage, we meet a lot of great people. Our next guest is Simon Martin who's the ambassador of the British embassy here in Bahrain. Simon, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks. >> Thanks for joining us. >> My pleasure. >> So, OK, so I want, I want to just kind of get your perspective. I met the US ambassador yesterday the last night at dinner. He's kind of new to the area and the job. >> But he's already, >> You've got experience, >> But he's already well informed, I can tell you (laughs). >> He's well informed (laughs). Birth by fire, thrown in the deep end. You've been here for a few years. >> Yeah, three. >> Take a minute to talk about the environment here, because we're first time here. We're learning or observing. I'm certainly surprised. My daughter was asking me: What are the women like there? We had a women's breakfast yesterday. 70 plus people. The energy, the diversity, interesting culture. Feels like very open, what's your thoughts. >> Well, very much so, I mean, Bahrain has been at the sort of crossroads of international travel for hundreds and hundreds of years. The UK's relationship with Bahrain, the formal one, goes back just over 200. And that was all to do with trade. Manama means the place of sleep. And it was the place that people used to stop to rest on their way across the Arabian subcontinent and towards the Indian subcontinent, and so on. So, it's a place which is naturally welcoming of foreigners and outside ideas. And I think that's what Amazon have found here. So, there is an often lot of change going on in this part of the world. Bahrain is relatively small economy compared to its neighbors. It was the place that oil was first discovered in the Gulf, but, actually, once they discovered it, they realized that she had rather less than most of the neighbors and, therefore, it's an economy which has had to adapt to keep, keep growing. In contrast, >> Mainly, mainly the dependence on oil, other oil-rich areas. >> Yeah. >> Right, is that it? >> Yeah. So, that's been the main stay of the economy for some time, but there is not the, there is not yet the potential for the growth that's needed in order to help develop an economy with its, with the necessary modern infrastructure. A growing population, a need for, for quality employment for young people which is something that we've heard a lot of in the last few years. >> Talk about your history, how long have you been in the job you're in, what's the background, what are some of the things that you've done >> OK >> at the government in the UK. >> Yeah, well, Thank you, so I've been here for three years. Before that, I was working, actually, for His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales. And in that role, visited this part of the world on a couple of occasions, and so, and so the impact of that very important part of our relationship, royal family's relationship with the royal families in this part of the Gulf, and it just opened my eyes a bit to the, to the importance of having multifaceted relationships. And, again, this is what we're now, this is what we are now seeing here, that Amazon Web Services with the cloud region that they are building here have brought a new dimension, >> (laughs) The fly got... >> Not surprised, to the Bahraini economy. >> So, tell me about the multifaceted piece of news. What I'm fascinated by is the Dubai dynamic, right. You know, I see Dubai, a lot of events there, Blockchain events, AI events, a lot of tech events. Feels like New York to me, using the American metaphor. It's kind of like a Silicon Valery kind of vibe. But they all work, been working together for years. What's the historical relationships, how have they changed, and how does cloud computing make up for that? How does that play into it? >> Well, of course there've been, it's been a very collaborative and yet competitive relationship between the different, particularly the finance centers of the Gulf for many years. The economic success story of Dubai is very well known. Bahrain has continued to develop, but without the resources that underpin the UAE success, has done so on a more, more progressive way. But this is always be, going to be a much smaller economy and Bahrain has to, has to compete in niches in which it has the competitive advantage. And it's this, what we have now happening here, is creating a wonderful new niche opportunity for Bahrain. But, of course, I don't think am letting out any secrets to say that each of the countries in the Gulf would love to have been hosting the new cloud region. >> Yeah. >> So Bahrain had try incredibly hard to present an environment in which to host this kind of, this kind of investment which requires regulation. It requires openness and ease of doing business and it also requires an openness to developing the labor force to support not only the Amazon, but all of the train of companies that we're expecting to invest along behind it. >> Well, Simon, I really appreciate your experience and candor here on theCUBE. Certainly, for us it's a new area and you have certainly a perspective for, for the Royal Family in the UK, and now being here. But one of the interesting things I'd like to get your perspective on is, you know, you look at globalization and you look at regulations, you look at digital, things like GDPR, you see all traditional things, you mean, you can go back when I was a young kid growing up, I remember the pound and the French franc and all the different currencies going on, and then EU comes together. And now you have Asia and cryptocurrency. So you have a whole another cloud computing generation coming where that might reimagine the political landscape, might imagine the economic relationships. These are opportunities, but also threats. And so how people handle it is interesting. So, how do you, when you look at that kind of dynamic, you got a little bit uncertainty and opportunity at the same time, depending how you look at it, it's the glass half full or the glass half empty. >> Exactly. >> How should executives and government officials start thinking about this new model, this new marketplace. London is certainly the center of the action and connects now into Bahrain, could be a different dynamic, frictionless, digital. >> Mhmm. >> People living across borders. These are new dynamics. What's your thoughts on this new melting pot of digital impact? >> Well, of course, everybody wants a piece of it, everybody wants to be at the center of a new melting pot. And for Bahrain, they're looking to be the of it within, within this region, but of course, the Dubai Finance Center and, you know, Abu Dhabi and Kuwait, and so on are also, are also very keen, and no one, no one is expecting to be the dominant player. And certainly from Bahrain's perspective, it's very much about creating the environment in which companies will see, this is a good place to start. The Gulf region is a coherent region with an incipient single market, and so on, within the GCC, and so, naturally, investors from the outside are going to look at one place to start. And so what Bahrain has done, and I think it's, it's been very well founded, it's just taken place over the three years that I've been here, it's to dramatically increase the ease of doing business, and then find proportionate ways in which the government can support new companies to get them established. So, you mentioned GDPR and, you know, how's this going to affect a company in the Gulf. Well, I was at the launch of a very interesting new big data software project by one of the, in fact British owned new startups in the FinTech Bay here which is supported by the Economic Development Board. They're starting point is that the product that we are selling out of Bahrain is GDPR compliant, which gives you an idea of the way, >> Yeah. >> in which even from, from this relatively small island in the Gulf, >> Yeah. >> the global perspective has been taken. >> And certainly with, you know, digital currency, the Know Your Customer Anti Money Laundering is the big thing too, you got to get that right. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> So, they have an opportunity with FinTech. Final question for you, as you look out and see the human capital market and the future of work. >> Yeah. >> It's a big conversation we're always having and certainly I live in Silicon Valley where everyone's, no secret that there's a migration out of Silicon Valley due to the prices of living there, but yet concentration of entrepreneurship. People are going to have engineering teams all over the world. so you have a disperse workforce now crossing borders and not just the domicile issue, that's one, you know, taxes, where to domicile, outside say the US or other countries. So, you have a combination of diverse workforces. >> Mhmm. >> This is big, this is a big opportunity too, challenge and opportunity. >> It is, it is. And, of course, there are not just big changes, now, there's constant fluctuation in the way the workforce and the populations in this part of the world and within the gulf are changing. Look at Vision 2030 in Saudi Arabia, the big increase in the Saudi workforce, both through the policy of Saudization and through the creation of many more opportunities for women in the workforce. That's affecting Bahrain. But Bahrain has always been a place where people come to work and sometimes to work remotely, sometimes to live here and work across in Saudi Arabia. So, the Bahrainis feel that they are very, very attuned to these challenges. But I might just mention as well that this is not just about economics. And what impresses me about the reform program you see going on here is that, the idea is that we will create a broader and wider spread opportunity, particularly through the opportunities for young professionals working in AWS, but also in the environment all the way around it, for all communities in Bahrain, not just the wealthy, not just the sort of Ivy league equivalent graduates. >> Yeah. >> And so that's why the academy that they're setting up here can, >> And then network does emerge in social networking is going to bring people closer together. >> Yeah. >> OK, great to have you on. Final question is, as people look at this moment in time, maybe an inflection point, shot heard around the Gulf, if you will, of Amazon, certainly they did this with CIA in our country, the said success is coming in, and kind of changing how things do, reimagining value creation and value capture. What do you see as the impact of the, a diverse region have been in this area and the geography? Just your thoughts on what the impact's going to be. >> Well, of course, this is a virtual world and a cloud region is the virtual concept, so it's easy to say, well it shouldn't take an Amazon Web Services cloud region to transform the way in which governments work here. In practice, what AWS have seen wherever they have established cloud regions, it's a magnet for other businesses to develop around it, and it provides the reassurance that governments need to take that step forward. I don't know whether you heard Max Peterson and his presentation this morning saying he was amazed at the speed with which the entire Bahraini government system has embraced the move to the cloud which, indeed, my own government is doing as we speak. And this, I think, is going to be one of the really big, the really big impacts which will allow governments to get smaller and more efficient and more transparent >> And serve their citizens in a different way, in a better way. >> But one last thing, John. Because, you may not have heard about this is, we're hearing a lot about the shift towards renewable energy in this part of the world, and people say, why on earth would we need renewable energy which is, you know, so much of the world's petrol carbon resources are based here, but, of course, if you don't burn them, you can sell them. And that's very simple economics. The fact is that it has taken longer than other parts of the world for the transition to renewable energy, even though we have so much sunshine and at times quite a lot of wind. The government here just put out a tender for a 100 megawatt solar farm. And the driving force behind that is because AWS have said: we want to power our cloud region from renewable energy. And this is an example of industry and the big investors actually applying a positive force to speed up the direction of the government policy already. And it's something that has been well. >> It's happened fast, this private partnership public relationship, that's a success story. >> And I think there are lots of other ways we will see this happening, as I say, you can't have over 2000 people here all focusing on the cloud technology without bringing an awful lot of extra attention to and focus on what else is going on in Bahrain. >> Yeah. >> From my perspective, the Bahrain government is saying we welcome, we welcome this, this publicity, and we look forward to explaining ourselves. And I think we'll see a lot of further development in this area. >> Simon that's a great point. Sustainable energy and the trade-off between industry, private industry trying to make money, but contributing technology and a co-creation with the government. >> Yeah. >> I mean, data center, it's hot here, you need cooling, you got sun power, you see, you got to have that solution. >> Absolutely, yeah. >> You can't burn it, you can sell it, so good opportunity. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Simon Martin, ambassador, the British ambassador to the embassy here in Bahrain. Thank yo for sharing your insights and color commentary. >> Pleasure to meet you, John. >> Appreciate it. Okay, live coverage here. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE bringing you all the new observations. Our first time in the Middle East region well coherent structure, great economics, great society benefits, cloud computing, Amazon Web Services region opening up in 2019. Exclusive coverage. Stay with us fore more after this short break. (upbeat electronic music)

>> Live from Bahrain, it's theCUBE! Covering AWS Summit Bahrain. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We are here, live in Bahrain, for the exclusive CUBE coverage of AWS Summit here in the region. Obviously, huge news, Amazon's having a region here, a full region, that's going to create a lot of connections, new opportunities, and hopefully make the life easier for all the developers and whatnot. Great guest here, so we're just talking with Kim on camera, about all the exciting developments on Amazon. We've got Abdul Raman, who's the group EVP of tech, at the ATG, which is the Al Tayyar Travel Group, in Saudi Arabia. >> Yep. >> Thanks for joining me today. >> Thanks a lot for having me. >> So, I'll quickly fast forward, you guys started in 2015, programming in the cloud, your like, we were late. I think that's actually a good time, 'cause Amazon had a lot of mature services ready. Went from zero to billions in revenue. >> Correct. >> Really big success story, that's large scale, all cloud based right? >> Yep, correct. >> Tell your story, what do you guys do, real quick, take a minute to explain your group, what you guys do, and then, what were the architectural things you decided, how did you get the growth? >> So, we are a 40 years old company, we started in 1979, we are the largest travel and tourism company in the Middle East. We went public, through our IPO in 2012. And 2015, our new board, and new management, including myself, we started building our ten-year strategy plan. And we said, we need to diversify our investment, so it mandated that we need to have an online presence. In 2015, we had a choice to build our online presence, which is very late, either on-premise using, building a data center, or we go to the cloud. We had multiple metrics including the cost efficiency, including scalability, security and so on, and all these metrics, when we compared on-premise versus cloud, cloud always win. And we selected Amazon to build our online presence. And beginning of 2015, we had zero presence, zero revenue. Our total revenue from the classic legacy systems, for the retail was almost two billion dollars. But we had zero revenue from the online. We were able, within six weeks, to build the proof of concept, and launch it immediately, and we started heavily investing in various components, from back-end, front-end, DevOps, and so on. And this year, we anticipate, we're going to be generating more than two billion riyal of revenue, that's about 450 >> Online >> Online only. >> Via cloud. >> Exactly, only on Amazon. And for us, that has been the best success story we had for years. >> It's an amazing success story actually. >> We look backward to our decision back then. >> I'll break for you, that's like actually really amazing. This is something that I think people don't really understand, what about the cloud, and certainly Amazon, and the kind of scale that you can get, if you get something right, both on the business model side and architecturally, you can be a unicorn. You're really a unicorn in revenue, that's the word that they hear in the startup world, unicorn, but mostly that's stock value, that's not actually real cash, in how many years? This is pretty phenomenal. This is the entrepreneurial dream, that is now a reality. >> Yep, that's correct. >> This is the story here. >> Exactly, and I'm happy that you mentioned that. We actually, when we started this venture, we said, to the founders, you guys are a startup. We rented out, in 2015, a garage, literally. >> Yeah, get out of the way. >> A house, A very old warehouse, we brought like, five guys, you are the core team, we told them, you are a startup, give us whatever you want to do. And it has been very successful since then. >> It's kind of like the Steve Jobs story, you got Apple, with the Mac II, and then the little group over here, you know, doing the Macintosh. >> Yep, yep, yep. >> That's your group, because you got to get out of their way, it's a mindset, I want to ask you that, that was one of my questions, but we got there a little early, but, this is a cultural shift. Cloud is a different mindset. >> Yep. >> It's not the old way of planning, team-building. >> Yep. >> It really is a different dynamic both execution wise, but team makeup. >> Correct. >> Can you share that piece of it? >> We gave our founders complete freedom, in how they're going to make up their management style. So we have a complete agile team, we have diverse geographical locations, we have people from India, developers in Egypt, in Dubai, in Saudi, and be all work and collaborate, using DevOp tools from Amazon, so we divide the work load, our product teams, weekly launch feature list. They tell us when they would like to launch every two weeks, or three weeks, a new version of the website, or the mobile apps. So, we have a completely agile development methodology, and we give our new venture a truly startup culture. >> And the key for you, if I get this right, is to have executive leadership say, we're doing this? >> Yep. >> Was that in place, did you drive that? >> Absolutely, so when our board said, told us, the new board in 2015, guys we don't have an online, go and get it, me and the CEO said, the best way to do it, is just spin off a completely different unit, completely independent, startup mentality, intro manuals, and told them, guys, sky is limit. We need to be the number one player in the Middle East. >> So, I got to dig deeper, 'cause I love, you know, it's all sexy, and great story when you say, this is how we started, and we finished strong, but as Andy Jassy would say, the CEO of AWS, the learning's in the middle, the ups and downs, as you figure things out, 'cause a lot of things about cloud, is iteration. >> Yep. >> 'Cause you have the ability to move very fast, and you get smart people together, so there's a glorious start and a glorious outcome, but in the middle is the experimentation, that's where the real work gets done. Can you share some of the learnings? Was it a technology selection? Did you really, do you have more queuing, more database, as you start to play with Amazon, this becomes, actually, a business process. >> Our biggest, yeah. >> Playing with the different pieces and which services are right for which process. Can you share something? >> Correct. So our biggest challenge was finding the right skillset, who are people who understand how Amazon, AWS, works. In the Middle East, we don't have that many skillset, or skillful people, so we had to wait, train the people, send them to Amazon workshops, be very patient with the mistakes, we don't mind people refactoring all the old code. Every month we start from scratch. We were very aware that this is, what we are doing, is never been done before in the Middle East. And what we have developed, in terms of, for example, the big data, the big data platform we build today, is one of the largest, we are processing terrabytes of data every week. It's one of the largest in the Middle East. The number of developers we have today, more than 500, working on AWS. I don't think any company in the Middle East, have that number of developers, working on this platform. So we're very proud that we gave our developers the trust and we are aware that you need to fail fast, learn, and quickly adapt. >> And it's a contagious mindset too, when you start seeing success. >> Yep. >> So talk about some of the architectural, talk about the stack that you're using. Obviously, you must be using a variety of the Amazon goodness, EC2, that's pretty obvious, are you guys using the queuing, are you using Kinesis? How you, can you talk about some of the architectural things, if you can? >> Yep, so we have, the front-end that we have today, is completely built on Node.js and AngularJS, so it's very fast, very agile. Our back end is built on Java, most of the code built on Java. We have multiple messaging buses, that asynchronous mode, so whenever there is something that needs to be given to a certain component, we don't have to wait for serial queuing. It's all parallel. At the same time, we have a lot of Auto Scaling components. One of the examples I gave earlier today, is that, we had, the beginning of this summer, we had so many marketing campaigns, and we were surprised by how successful these marketing campaigns. We have noticed, in one marketing campaign, that our demand, from our customer, have reached 300 percent, within 24 hours, and the Auto Scaling that we have in place, have been very successful. We were able to immediately meet that demand. >> Talk about how good the Auto Scaling is. Isn't that a relief? >> Absolutely. >> I mean, explain how it works because, essentially, when the demand comes in, explain how it works. >> Yep, so, just to give an example, if we had this infrastructure on-premise, we would have needed six weeks to procure a new infrastructure, install it, configure it, and we would have lost all this six weeks of revenue. >> And then, by the way, you would have lost the first 24 hour surge, then you'd go over-billed, and then wait around, and then not know if you over-provisioned. >> Absolutely. >> This is, the old way. The new way is, you configure Auto Scaling, based on policy, and then it just spins up. >> Absolutely. >> Resources. >> Absolutely. >> While you're sleeping. >> Exactly, so in a few seconds, the Auto Scaling fires up a lot of instances, and we immediately cope with the demand. >> You know, it's funny you mentioned that. One of the comments we have inside our company is, you know you're successful online, when you're making money while you're sleeping. And, you know, if you have Auto Scaling, and things of that nature, these things are programmatic, this is what elastic is all about, this is what coders, >> Yep. >> Not system administrators do >> True. >> And once they do it, they're highly motivated not to manage it again. >> Correct, absolutely. >> Again, this is back to the culture of DevOps. >> Yep, yep. >> How have you guys innovated on that piece, can you give some other examples? >> Yes, so today we have, our big data has feeds from all the buys from the big social networks, Twitter and Facebook, and also from Google, and we have all this analytical data, into our big data, and we analyze all our customer behavior, what they're looking for, what kind of destinations, holidays, business travel, and we try to adapt every two, three weeks, our product and services to meet our customer demand. Next year, we're going to be launching our machine learning, and AI infrastructure. This way, we'll be able to do real time, predictive analysis, and we will be able to serve each customer, unique, fully personalized, customized, web page and experience. We will be able to exceed our customer expectations, and we'll be able to give our customer exactly what they're looking for. >> Abdul, I got to ask you a personal question. >> Sure. >> What are you most proud of, of this success story? What are some of the things, that you look back and say, wow, we really knocked it out of the park, we did great on this, and then an example where you had a good learning experience. Maybe a trip and a fall, that was a learning opportunity. What are you most proud of? And areas that you learned the most about from, tripping and falling, and failure. >> Yep, so I think the most thing I'm proud of, is we have gathered great minds, and we have created great culture. I think great companies have great people behind them, and this, I've learned from reading the stories of Apple or Microsoft, or Google and so on. So, I think we've been very successful in this area, in the Middle East, where the resources are very scarce, and the ability to attract very smart people is very difficult, to bring them in the Middle East. And I think, we've been very successful in that regard, we've been able to gather a lot of smart people, and create great culture. >> You know, Marc Andreessen wrote that article, book about, or maybe it was a tweet, I can't even remember, the 10x engineer. >> Yep. >> And that concept is one engineer, that does cloud and DevOps right is worth ten engineers in the old world. And so, if you can collect, a selection of these 10x multipliers, that can do architecture. >> Correct. >> Now I personally believe that the full-stack developer, might be obsoleted with the cloud, or reduce the requirement for full-stack developer, but you'll still need full-stack developers for cloud, in general, but you don't need to stockpile full-stack developers. >> True, true, I agree. >> If you have good full-stack developers, you then can hire application developers >> True. >> Because the full-stack takes care of all the scale. >> Exactly, you can always repurpose those guys, and up-skill them to do something different. Instead of being a full-stack, you really want to focus on solution developer. >> Google's proven this with their SRE, if you've seen, they have operators, and developers. And this, as you scale, you're operating infrastructure, or you're writing code for applications. >> Correct. >> Alright, so what's the learnings that have been magnified for you? In the middle of the journey here, there's always the, you know, situation were, you know, you have to take care of personnel issue, or technology selection tweak or change, iteration, I won't say pivot, 'cause people don't pivot, when they're succeeding, it's just navigating through the journey. What was something that you've experienced that was magnified in the learnings, that have helped you get better? >> Yep, I believe that the multi-culture and the multi-nationalities and multi-discipline and people coming from different backgrounds. We have people from Asia, from Europe, from the U.S., in our company, and this helped having different backgrounds, different experiences, and this has helped us to build a nice, multi-dimensional solutions. And people have been able to share this experience, in a very nice way. >> That's great, Abdul, thanks so much for sharing, taking the time. >> Thank you. >> Here on theCUBE, and sharing your insight, and amazing success story, congratulations to you and your team, really love to hear these amazing success stories, essentially building from zero start, online, to billions in revenue, that's an amazing success story. >> Thank you very much for having me. >> And it certainly is great. Exclusive coverage here, we are in Bahrain, this exclusive CUBE coverage, I'm John Furrier. You can reach me on Twitter @furrier, or just search my name, reach out to me, let me know what you think. Stay with us for more coverage, after this break. (techno music fades out)

>> Live from Bahrain, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Summit Bahrain. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Hey, welcome back everyone, we're here live in Bahrain in the Middle East. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage, here for the first time, covering Amazon Web Services, AWS' Public Sector, and the breaking news around their new region that they announced a while ago, going to be deployed here in the early 2019 time frame. An Amazon region really is the power source of digital. It has a track record of creating so much value and innovation. And I'm here with Teresa Carlson, who's the head-- she's the chief of public sectors, she's the head of Amazon Web Services' Public Sector globally, except for China but that's a different territory. Teresa Carlson, it's great to see you. >> It's so great to have you here with us, oh my goodness. >> So I got to say, you told me a few years ago we're going to really go international, we're doubling down outside North America, we're going to have regions, Andy Jassy, the CEO of AWS, said the same. This is the strategy of Amazon. But the Middle East was your baby. This was something that you did spend a lot of time on, and a lot of decisions. Everyone wants to know why Bahrain? Why did you choose this region? And what do you see happening? And how's it going? >> Well, you know, it's interesting because, well I have had a lot of people say why Bahrain as the first region that you've put in the Middle East? Because it doesn't seem like the first place somebody would choose. And the thing that kept coming back to me is Jeff has always said we're willing to be misunderstood for long periods of time. And I think this is probably one of those times where people just didn't quite understand why Bahrain. Well, here's why. I met the Crown Prince, we talked about digital innovation and the economy here and he immediately got that they needed to go through a digital transformation. They are not a country that has a lot of oil. They are a smaller country and they really are a working class country that is looking for how do they have sustainment? And they've done things in the past around financial services that really got them going. They would spear head things. And I think he saw the opportunity that this could help them jump-start the economy and they could kind of be a hub for innovation. So they created the right policies around Cloud First. They created the right telecommunications policy. They were one of the first to deregulate. They had good pricing for utilities. They were friendly toward businesses. And they had a culture that we felt could fit well with us, as well as our partner community. >> Couple of observations, being the first time here, so thank you for inviting us and allowing us to cover you here. One, they're a learning culture, they speak multiple languages, why not add programming to it, software? Two, they like to move fast. They just built a track in 14 months, they're not afraid to go faster. >> They go fast. >> That's Amazon. Amazon, you guys move at a speed of a whole 'nother cadence. And then, my observation again, compared to other areas as I look around is that the percentage of the population of Bahrainians is large, is a lot of people live here, that are native, and they're talented. >> Well, one of the things you said that I think is key is that they move fast, they're used to being frugal on how they do things and they're very scrappy. And that really fits with their culture because, again, they have to do things different than some of the other minimalist countries who are-- they're not quite as rich. But they have this culture of really moving fast and they took down blockers like crazy. I mean, as we came in and were making a decision on-- >> What were some of those blockers? Like, stumbling blocks, are they more hurdles? What were they? >> They were stumbling blocks but they were-- we had to really come in and talk about why telecommunications, policies and pricing had to change because in an old-school model of Telco, there's a lot of big charges. And when you have a digital economy coming in, if you think about, you have a few transactions for a lot of money in an old-school. In a new-school world, you have millions of transactions for a little bit, 'cause you've got to be able to transact a lot, and that's why your telecommunications industry's got to be set up as well as you want it deregulated. They'd already deregulated it so they worked with us to open it up, to set the policies, and now Batelco, who is one of our major telecommunications partners here, is doing manage services on AWS, they've gotten all kinds of people trained. And it's just an example of how they look at an opportunity and say we have got to innovate and make changes if we want to have a sustainment in the 21st century economy. >> And you guys are bringing a lot of goodness to the table, they're quick learners, they're smart, they've got their entrepreneurial vibe. They're not afraid to put some funds of funds together and get some professional investment going on. So that's going to level up the entrepreneurship base. The question is when will the region be ready? How's that going? It's under construction. We've been hearing it's been impacting and, frankly, bringing in to this country an agenda item of sustainability and sustainable energy. Well, why would they need sustainable energy if they've got oil? >> Well they-- (laughs) [John] - Why burn it if you can sell it? That's what the British Prime Minister-- >> Well they do and they've had a new find but I think they have to get to the new oil that they've found but they're not-- I think, what I understand, they're not banking on that, they're going to bank on a digital economy. So they know this is kind of a guaranteed way to really grow what they're doing and bringing out outside others. There's two big elements they're doing. One is they're creating policies for data that allows other countries to put their data here safely and with the right laws. That is game changing. So that's one big thing they're doing. The second thing is they have the spirit of teaching and training so they're getting other countries to come in and talk to them about what they're doing. And remember, John, they're already moving the government to the Cloud and they don't even have their Cloud here yet. So they've done all their homework and they're already moving more work loads into the Cloud that they don't feel need to be here. But they've looked at security design, compliance practices, and they're like, we're moving, we're not waiting. >> They're Cloud First. >> They're Cloud First. >> Okay, so when do you expect the construction to be ready? Ballpark, I know you can't probably give an exact date but when-- >> We expect it'll be ready by Q1 of 2019 and we're excited. It's going to be one of the most innovative regions. And by the way, I dunno if you saw, I had a big star on the map today in my presentation. We have literally, at AWS, had a big hole in the world with no region in the Middle East or Africa, and now we are going to have this region so it is exciting, and I know that the region itself is really anxious to get going. >> Well not only are you an amazing executive, I've seen you work, I've seen what you've done, checking the boxes, doing the hard work, getting down and dirty and doing hustling and scrapping, but you also made some good strategic bets. This one really is successful because I think, two things, you bring a region to the area for AWS but you guys are doing it in a way that's partnering with the government, you're actually-- as industry contributing. I think that's a case there that's going to probably be recognized down the road when people figure that out. But that's going to be a great one. But the cultural win, for you, is pretty amazing and I have to say, yesterday I went to the women breakfast that you hosted and I've never been at a women breakfast, and I've been to a lot of them because I like to be involved, where I got kicked out of a table because they need the space, so it was so crowded. Sorry guys, you're out, I got booted. I didn't leave the room, I had to just move, because they had workshops. Take a minute to explain the women breakfast you had because I think that was extraordinary and a proof point that the narrative of the region, women don't go to school, all this nonsense that's out there, take a minute to clarify this, this is a cultural shift. There might be some cultural things going on. >> Well, the women are here, #SmartIsBeautiful. They are amazing. And they are very educated and in fact, 53% of the government work force here are females at high level jobs too, they're not just low level. And I actually met with the King this week who told me that he was able-- he has the first Supreme Court Justice, that's a female, in the Middle East. And he said it was against culture but he did it because he said this woman was so amazing and she was so talented and she fit the role, she had the job description down. And he said it's gone great, so the women here are smart, they're talented, they're educated, and they actually get degrees in Computer Science. Here in Bahrain, 60% of the Computer Science students are females. Now, what is not happening, is their not always getting out and getting these jobs. And the second thing is, right now, we're still working with them to teach the right skills. A lot of skills are actually outdated tech skills and I know, John, you see this too, even in the US. You have universities that are still teaching the wrong skills for Cloud, so we are working with them at the university and the high school level that actually teach and certify on the right skills. But the women are talented, they're amazing. There are some cultural things that we're going to work together on but there's really no reason we can't have an amazing and talented workforce of women here in the Middle East. >> We had Mohammed on, who's the chief executive of the IGA, the Information e-Government Authority. He told me that any citizen can get a certification for free in this country. >> Yes! Oh my gosh, so I've never seen this. So our partner here, Tamkeen, who's like The Labour Fund, about a year and a half ago, agreed that any citizen that got a certification on AWS, it would be 100% paid for. And then we just announced today that they're actually also going to pay 100% of Bahraini companies that want to move to the Cloud. They're serious about this, they are serious. And they are being a role model and, again John, why are they doing it? They are doing it because they realize that they want to be a true digital economy and grow their businesses here and create new. They got to move faster because they're smaller. They've got to be scrappier, they got to move faster, they got to do things a little bit different. >> The other thing I want to point out, you can't really see it on the camera, but behind us you have, essentially, a mix of commercial and public sector. The show here is so, so crowded, couldn't get into the keynote speech, overflow of room was packed, this is attracting everyone from the Gulf region here. Not just public sector, but commercial businesses. This is not a one time thing, this is a-- the pent-up demand is here. What do you expect is going to happen when the region gets here built out? >> Well, if you look at all the partners around, I mean you have Trend Micro over here, and others, many of them have come because they're excited about us putting a region here. And Andy Jassy and I both have had many of our partners say when are you going to have a region in the Middle East? So we expect a lot more partners are going to come. Just like you they're going to see the value of being here. But, additionally, I don't know what we're going to do for our conference, our summit, because we've already out-grown this space and you're right, we have delegates here from Jordan, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, of course Bahrain, Kuwait, the US. So many different groups are being represented here and I think also South Africa, we have some folks from South Africa. >> Well theCUBE is here, we're making great observations and great commentary. I got to say that you're even attracting amazing talent from the US, besides theCUBE. General Keith Alexander was here. >> Yes he was. >> John Wood from Telos, and all these partners, all visionaries who see the opportunity. This is important, you're not being misunderstood by the people who know Amazon. >> No, I agree. And you made a point earlier that I think is important. Even though I'm kind of here for this conference, leading it, this is not a public sector conference, it's a AWS Summit. It has tons of commercial, tons of public sector. The thing that's a little bit different when you get to some of these countries is they are more government lead, so that is the reason it's important to have this relationship with government if you really want to, but you don't want to surprise them. And you want to work with them to help make sure that they and the country are successful. >> Well Teresa, it's been fun to observe and watch your successes continue to raise the bar here in your job. This is a whole 'nother level when you talk about really filling a hole, you see a hole, you fill it. >> Yep, find a whole, fill it (laughs). >> I heard someone say that once in a motivation speech. Oh, that was you, "You see a hole you fill it. "Oh, we got to hole in the Middle East, fill it!" You have a region here, you've got great success in Washington, DC, CIA, other governments. Congratulations, and thanks for all your support-- >> Thank you John for being here, thank you. >> Thank you, live coverage here. We are here in Bahrain in the Middle East of CUBE's first time. I'm John Furrier, your host here, covering the exclusive Amazon Web Services Summit, and covering the historic launch of the new region in the Middle East. This should change the game, this is going to be a digital hub. It's going to have impact to entrepreneurship, economics and society. We'll be covering it at theCUBE. Stay with us for more after this short break. (jubilant music)

>> Live from Bahrain, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Summit Bahrain. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE's exclusive coverage. We are here in Bahrain in the Middle East for exclusive coverage of AWS's new region in the area. I'm John Furrier, cohost of theCUBE. It's our first time in the Middle East, as we go out into the world and expand theCUBE's mission of bringing you the best content, extracting the signal from the noise, meeting new people, connecting with thought leaders, people creating innovation, creating a new cultural shift with cloud computing. It's a societal global phenomenon, it's a change that's going to impact society, culture, economics, and humans. And this is theCUBE coverage, we're going to continue with that we are excited to have Khalid Al Rumaihi who is the CEO of the Bahrain Economic Development Board. He's the man, and responsible with his team for all the success and vision of bringing an Amazon region into the area. Here in Bahrain, Amazon has announced a region that's going to come in. And we expect to see economic revitalization. We expect to see an amplification of culture. Welcome to theCUBE, thank you for joining me. >> Thanks for having me John. >> Thanks for inviting us, and thanks for having us here. Here in the middle of all the action. Teresa Carlson from Amazon had a vision and you aligned with that vision, you guys are like-minded individuals. You saw something special with digital. >> Right. >> And this is not new. It's not like you woke up one morning and said, hey, let's bring Amazon in. Take us through the history of how we got here with Amazon about to launch a region early 2019 in Bahrain. You guys have had a vision, take us through that. >> You know, I started in my position about three years ago. I remember March 2015, a little more than three years ago. And my first week on the job, was joining his highness the crown prince in a meeting with Teresa. And so, in that meeting, that's what kicked it really off. Teresa heard form his highness, who is the chairman of the Bahrain Economic Development board, the vision for the country. We deregulated our telecom sector about 13, 14 years ago. We were the first country to do that in the Middle East. Which meant that we introduced competition on broadband, on mobile. It dropped prices by about 50%. On connectivity in the country. That attracted Amazon. When they looked at the region, they said, here's a government that's allowing true competition and for a data center obviously broadband communication, and the competitiveness of that price is key. And she was also impressed with his royal highness's vision for the country going forward. We want to become a digital economy, we want to transform this economy from an oil-based economy, to one that is based on information. And so we had a common view. And we determined, at that point, that we were going to do everything in our power to translate the conversation we had there to a reality. And here we are, almost three years later, almost to have a region here. >> And you know, people know my rant and rave, I always talk about, data is the new oil, information is the new oil. In that data and information, digital assets are digital. It a life-blood now of society. Citizen are reacting. Everyone's now connected with mobile devices, you're starting to see autonomous vehicles, you're starting to see a cultural blending between the old world, and then digital. And citizens can get new services, there's more efficiencies but there's actually a better opportunity for the citizens. And also in general. How do you guys look at that when you guys have your meetings, and you're looking at the vision of the future, the citizen benefits. Whether it's an entrepreneur or someone who's just living life. >> Well you know, when we had this discussion with Amazon, we decided to do what we call a cloud first policy. And we decided that we were going to move the government work loads to the cloud. We were going to actually, challenge any government institution, why they're not using the cloud. And it's been phenomenal. Now, it's been phenomenal from a cost saving perspective, which we want to pass on to the citizens. So for the citizens, for be for them to be able to get government services on their mobile phone, to pay their electricity bill to do get their license. And the government, if it reduces its cost can pass that on to that citizen. But more importantly, it's going to allow innovation to take place in the government. We're going to be able to have our education data in the Ministry of Education, communicate with our labor data. We're going to be able to do education in a new way. So it is going to unleash innovation in the government and the way it offers its services. We think it's going to do the same for businesses and for startups. >> We didn't get a chance to film it yesterday, but we were part of with Teresa Carlson's team with you and your startup Bahrain. All the entrepreneurs from the community, very vibrant, talking General Keith Alexander was there, knows a thing or two about cyber and then we had an entrepreneur visionary in John Wood, who's been in the business, but he's also a visionary. He made a comment and you reacted to that around the impact of the AWS region coming here. He was almost like, there's a storm of innovation coming and you align with that. You said, you kind of reacted at dinner last night about it. What is your feeling of what this will bring to the region? 'Cause Amazon has proven that when they put a region out, there's unexpected consequences sometimes like things you might not see. What are you expecting for the impact. For AWS? >> I think it's a game changer. I mean, you said data is the new oil. If we think back to the 30s, this country was the first country to discover oil. When, at that time, Texaco and So Cal started a refinery and started extracting oil, all the industries that developed around it refineries, oilfield engineering, oilfield services. You know, I think we're seeing we're going to see that in the new digital economy with data. Amazon coming here is going to do several things. Number one, it's going to unleash this innovation, it's going to reduce latency for people who are storing data looking to retrieve that. It's going to create new jobs, data scientists. We estimate 10,000 jobs are going to come on the back of this, that is going to be for the entire region. And I get it, I emphasize this is going to be a game changer, not just for the kingdom of Bahrain, but for the entire Middle East. We're already seeing startups who are getting educated about what the cloud can do for them, and the scale, the scale that they can reach by going to the cloud early on, we've seen them in the United States. Why can't this region see a unicorn that is able to be a global leader, just by virtue of, going to the cloud and learning from Amazon. And Amazon, AWS shares our passion for the startup community and what this can do for that. >> I want to get to the what's going to attract business to come into Bahrain. But first about what startup impact Amazon has proven and I heard a comment from one of the startups, Amazon Web Services is for big companies. Whoa, whoa, yeah, big companies are using Amazon now, but they won, they were built on the backs of startups. When Amazon first started and startups still use Amazon. It is a dream for a startup, the cost to get a company up off the ground, the speed of innovation with Amazon has proven startups, this is a big opportunity. And so this is going to impact how you set policy and get out of the way entrepreneurs, do you help them? As you look at policy, is that almost a tough decision on your part? 'Cause you guys are used to helping entrepreneurs, very entrepreneur friendly, but almost do you get out of their way, do you help them? What's the strategy for the startups? How do you look at this, because if the acceleration comes in and the training kicks in, you're going to see a renaissance of entrepreneurs, >> Right? >> What do you do, get out of their way, help them out? What's that? >> You got to balance it. I think, you can't coddle them. You can't do everything for the entrepreneur, there's got to be that grit, the resilience, that hunger at the entrepreneur. I was an entrepreneur before I took this role, and I think you've really got to have that fire in your belly. So what we want to do is we want to create an ecosystem, but we don't want to spoon feed them. So what we've done is for instance, we launched a $100 million venture capital fund of funds. And we said, the government shouldn't invest in startups but let's create a fund of funds that will invite venture capitalists to base themselves here, but we're not going to tell these venture capitalist how to invest. So each startup has to pitch itself to these venture capitalists and make sure that there's justification for it. We're going to create, you know, training, we're going to create elements, the regulation. We introduced a bankruptcy law this year, that is going to allow people to fail and to restructure. So we're going to put the policy in place. We're going to allow capital to be there, we're going to look at our training and education. But again, it really is down to the entrepreneur, to, so you've got to mix you've got to balance it. You've got to say, the burden is also on you to think about what's the market opportunity. Here is what the country will do, but then the rest is up to you. And I think, we're going to see our young youth in the region. We're doing this because this region is transforming. This region needs to create jobs. There's about a 100 million jobs you need to create in the Middle East over the next couple years. You're not going to be able to create that in the normal way. So we want people to become employers become entrepreneurs, rather than just employees and looking for a nine to five job. So it's integral to the vision of the region. >> Entrepreneurship is the engine of innovation. All right, let's talk about the region. You know, we're first out here so I'm kind of new, fresh eyes and you see Dubai out there, you got Asia, China and all these in Hong Kong and Singapore. So you guys have a unique opportunity. Dubai is kind of like a New York, it's hustle bustle is built out. You guys have this feeling like a Silicon Valley vibe. >> Right? >> It feels very open, very friendly, so you don't have to compete with each other. And New York does things, Silicon Valley does things. So you have this entrepreneurial culture. The key is a global co-creation a connection. How are you going to attract businesses? Because there is demand in the US for domiciling in places outside the United States. There's been a lot of competition. >> Sure. >> So are you prepared for companies to come here work with you? I know you guys are doing a lot of work. What do you say to the folks out there saying, I need to have a presence. Can I domicile in Bahrain? What's it like? What's the opportunities for me to connect into a growing ecosystem around Bahrain? >> So I'd say first of all, on the region, I mean, just like in Asia, just like in the US, you can have multiple hubs. So you know Bahrain will be a hub alongside a Dubai or a Riyadh or a Kuwait and so forth or a Abu Dhabi. And our niche is, as a small country, we're going to be very agile. One of the reasons why Amazon chose Bahrain is because we have a team Bahrain approach. And I, you know, I came from the private sector, when you're talking to General Electric, you're not talking to one department in General Electric, especially if you're a large customer. The whole company's going to rally around you and bring a solution to you as a customer. We're going to do that as a country. So with Amazon we got all the various ministries and we took a team Bahrain approach and we said we're going to solve through the economic development board, we're going to solve for your problem. Mondelez, which chose to locate their $100 million facility in Bahrain, built a facility about 30 soccer pitches, and they did it within a year and a half. We reclaimed land and had the land ready for them. They called it 'cause they make Oreos, they call it turning ocean to Oreos. >> Yeah. >> And so it's that agility that is going to differentiate us. In terms of niche, we're very interested in FinTech. We think we're going to take a leadership position not only regionally, but globally in FinTech. We have exciting announcements that we're going to make in FinTech. It's a small country, we can be nimble, agile, startup friendly, and kind of innovate. And so we're determined to carve a niche in open banking, in crypto currency exchanges, interesting innovation areas that we think we can excel at. >> Cloud computing certainly is a driver, artificial intelligence, obviously clearly. The fodder for entrepreneurship because it allows you to do things with data at a scale with a cloud engine, talk about FinTech and banking you can't ignore blockchain and crypto currency, which is bubble-ish right now, and then was kind of cleaning itself out, sorting itself out, but when that starts to settle and it becomes legitimate in the sense of a global access to digital money, or software defined money. >> Right. >> And data, that could be an integral part. How do you guys look at that? I know that's something that everyone's talking about. People are looking to do token kind of business models and there's really hasn't been any leadership globally at all on. >> Right. >> This is a place people can domicile, here Malta, here, there and there. So how do you guys look at that market, are you thinking about it, are you kicking the tires, what's happening? >> We're looking at FinTech and saying, really, beyond all the logos and all that. We're looking to reduce the friction for a customer doing the simple things. Looking at aggregating your accounts, understanding how you're spending money, looking at how to transfer money, looking at how to raise capital. If we can look at reducing the friction for people around these challenges, these day to day challenges and use our country as a pilot for doing that. Then imagine the potential that once you illustrate the potential here, you could go replicate it elsewhere. So we're very interested in blockchain. So you talk about crypto currencies, I think the real interesting element is the blockchain opportunity in FinTech and beyond. How can you allow the distributed ledger to have multiple applications. We're going to introduce issuing car licensing by a blockchain. Land, real estate transactions via blockchain. In addition to that, we're looking at open banking and allowing open banking to be prevalent here and allowing entrepreneurs to plug in and get access to that data and innovate around that. So that's how we're thinking about innovation in FinTech. >> Really, thanks for coming on and spending the time. I know you're super busy, and thanks for hosting us with theCUBE as part of the Amazon contingent. I give you the final word for the folks watching out there. What should they know about Bahrain that they might not know about it? And how do they engage with you guys? What are you guys doing? How should someone contact you? How do we engage? And what's the secret sauce of the Bahrain plan? >> Well, first of all, I'm going to plug my institution. It's simple, look at bahrainedb.com. It's on the internet. It's going to give you everything you need about what Bahrain. And what I'd say is, this is a small, but you know in this, in today's world, a global world and interconnected world, small is beautiful. So we're a small, forward thinking country. We're in a region that is about $1.5 trillion in terms of just the Gulf Cooperation Council. And here is a great gateway for tapping into that opportunity. We're about 30 minutes from the kingdom of Saudi Arabia which is doing wonderful things with Vision 2030, and you can be in Bahrain accessing that opportunity. And so I'd invite you to come, look at our website and the Bahrainedb will help you translate that kind of opportunity to a reality. >> Khalid, Chief Executive of Economic Development Board in Bahrain. Bold move congratulations. Bold moves have bold payoffs. Big bet with Amazon. >> Thanks, for having me John. >> Thanks for coming on. It's theCUBE here, we're live in Bahrain here at the Ritz Carlton for AWS summit 2018 here in the Middle East. I'm John Furrier. We'll be back with more coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Bahrain, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Summit, Bahrain. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back everyone, we're here live in Bahrain, for exclusive Amazon coverage. It's theCUBE's first time in the region, we're excited to be here as AWS Public Sector Summit and commercial opportunities are expanding Amazon has announced and will be up and running in 2019 with a new region here in Bahrain in the middle east. It will generate a lot of activity, we expect it to create a tsunami of innovation, data information is the new oil. We're here covering it, this is going to be the beginning of more coverage here in the area for theCUBE. And we're meeting new people, and then we've run into some luminaries, CUBE alumnus, and our next guest is a CUBE alumna, John Wood is the CEO of Telos, also been on theCUBE many times as you might know, is an expert in cybersecurity, just an overall knowledgeable and visionary entrepreneur, good to see you thanks for joining us today. >> Thanks John, I really appreciate it. >> So you're part of the entourage with Teresa and the team as she comes in a cross-pollinates Amazon Web Services public sector seven, what she's done in Washington DC and beyond, here in the region, it's going to be a new formula that Bahrain and the people here have recognized. Like we were in a meeting yesterday, where you weren't pounding the table, but you looked very clearly at the Chief Executive Officer who reports to the king and the crown prince and you said, you don't really know yet, what you got, and you're a visionary, so and we've talked about this and so I want to get it out here on camera, this is a big freaking deal. >> It is. >> Can you explain why, and what your vision is and what will happen with Amazon, 'cause you've been a partner of AWS with Telos, you've been very successful, you've seen the moving parts, you've seen the impact of innovation. >> Yup, absolutely. >> What's your thoughts? >> So you know, the shot heard around the world back at the end of 2013 John was when the Central Intelligence Agency made the decision that the cloud was just secure enough for them. And that kind of made everybody around the world stand up and notice. So yesterday, when we were talking with all of the various people around economic development in Bahrain, you know I said the shot heard around the Middle East is that Amazon is located here in Bahrain. I think just like what happened in America, it's going to have a massive impact from a socio-economic point of view here in the Middle East and specifically in Bahrain. >> What are some of the things that you might expect to see, that they got to be ready for here? >> Well first of all, one thing I'll say is a marked difference from America is that the government here and the business environment here all has agreed it's important to move to the cloud. That in and of itself is a big, big difference than America. In America it's been a lot more fragmented and it's taken more time. I think here, I think the government and the industry is seeing the value of the cloud globally, and they're going to be able to move that much faster than even we did in America. >> They built a Formula 1 race track in 14 months, they don't have a lot of the baggage that America has in terms of older systems. I mean, more tech baggage, or tech legacy, older systems, older databases, kind of a clean sheet of paper. >> They have a bit of a clean sheet of paper, but they also do have legacy John. What they've also done though, is they've given themselves a two year time frame to move everything to the cloud. Now that in and of itself, having a beginning, a middle, and an end, is a really good thing because the journey's going to be relatively rapid and I think the uptick economically as a result is going to be rapid as well. >> So one of the things that you were also involved in here with Teresa and the local Bahrain government and entrepreneurs is you were here with General Keith Alexander, who had to leave last night, we had hoped to have him on theCUBE, four star general, head of the NSA, he's seen his shares of data and scale, he had a unique perspective. What are some of the things that you and General Alexander were discussing with the government here? Can you share with appropriate, some of the things you were talking about? >> I think we can apply best practices here, just like we applied back in America. I think the fact that they've gone to a cloud first policy is a really good thing, the next step I think is to find a standard that you can actually look to from a security point of view, 'cause with that standard you can then have a common lexicon. And that common lexicon allows you to share data between and amongst each other that much more quickly. >> You know, one of the things I overheard you over here and I kind of observed this, and I'm just going to throw it out there because we think the same way with theCUBE is that when you have a cloud model, the benefit of the cloud is you can just actually spin up another instance or thing. It's horizontally scalable, generally speaking. So as you run your business Telos with Amazon in the US and other areas, this is a new opportunity for you. It's almost rinse and repeat, just kind of plug in. And cloud gives you that benefit, so this kind of opens up the conversation of opportunities that Amazon will pull with them to Bahrain and the region. Do you agree with that? How do you see this pull that Amazon might have? >> I think what Amazon can do more than really any other cloud organizations is because they've been at it for such a long time, so much longer than the other cloud providers, they can bring best practices to the table, they can bring best technologies to the table, they can bring best partnerships to the table, which allows people to actually know with confidence that if they move to the cloud it's going to work, and it's going to be more secure. >> The other thing I will also point out at the end of that is then that Andy Jassy and Teresa also bring expertise. They'll do work here on behalf of citizens. >> Well absolutely, you know when Amazon makes a commitment to build a region over a 10 year period it's anywhere between a two to three billion dollar financial commitment to the region, so that in and of itself drives economic value into the region. >> So I got to ask you the tough question, which is obviously the one that's the elephant in the room, is instability in the region, potentially, how does digital disruption impact, say Bahrain and Middle East, you got Horizon, you got crypto-currency we know that markets kind of frothy and somewhat unethical in some areas, that's a red flag, but wants to be legitimate, cybersecurity, a big thing. This is your wheelhouse, cybersecurity, these new emerging areas, you got A.I. booming, you got cloud booming, got the notion these emerging tech, cybersecurity's at the center of the action. What does that mean for Amazon? What does that mean for stability in the region? What's the impact? What's your view on cybersecurity, Middle East, Bahrain, Amazon, can you share, can you unpack that? >> So John, that's an incredibly broad question, so thank you. So from my point of view, I can't deal with the political situations, what we can deal with is what we can control. And we know we can help control the security automation orchestration, we know it works. We've seen the most security conscious organization in the world adopt the security. We and Amazon are the security for the agencies cloud and we know that works. As it relates to the political situation I think here the ruling party understands that's an issue and they're working on it, and I can just leave that to them. >> But you're independent of that, you allow the scale piece on Amazon. And what do you hope to do in the region? What are some of your goals as a commercial opportunity with Bahrain announcing this partnership at the highest levels, this community here, young people want to work here. >> So I see it as a huge work force opportunity for everybody, number one. Number two, I think we can find a way to make sure that everybody can feel confident that it's going to work, so they can feel confident they can move their workload to the cloud. People in Kuwait can feel confident, people in Saudi Arabia can feel confident, and again, that confidence builds stability. With stability, with economic stability, there becomes political stability. That's the other point I'll make, is that at the end of the day, if you have the benefit of having the financial stability it helps in a lot of different ways. >> So what's your advice to the folks, if I had the king sitting here and the crown prince, we had a round table, what are some of the things that you would advise them from your experience, kind of looking back on your career and what you've done now knowing that the regions got a cultural and more of a different economic dynamic, what's your advice to the crown prince, the king, and folks trying to figure this out? >> From a cybersecurity perspective, I would want to do something similar, maybe not the same, but something similar to what the United States government did. When the US government decided to adopt a cybersecurity policy, the so called Cybersecurity Executive Order, there were two parts to it John, the first was cloud first which has been done here, and the second was to adopt the NIST Framework, the NIST Framework gave the common lexicon for all the cybersecurity professionals to be able to push their workloads to the cloud and then guys like me, what we do is, we push automation into that framework, which basically means we get out of the way of the mission and we help make the mission happen much more quickly. >> What about training and support? What's your impression of the economic development board, some of the work they're doing? Obviously they have a transition we heard, maybe some of them in a work force not yet mature, but they got programs in place. How do you see that developing? How would you put them on the progress bar vis-a-vis their aspiration? >> I think in general some of the work force issues that they have here are very similar to the work force issues we have in America. You know, in America, often when kids graduate from college there's a gap between what they get in terms of a degree and what we need in terms of a skill set, that kind of happens everywhere. I think that simple programs like apprenticeships; which have been around for a long time, can be very, very effective in terms of narrowing that gap so that when the kids come out we can actually put them to work and they don't have to be re-trained in the work force. I think that's a big opportunity. I also think there's a big opportunity to bring some of the people here into America to teach best practices, and then bring them back, that they can bring those best practices into the environments here, so they can have that work themselves here. >> What's your take on the eco-system, obviously here we heard start-ups are very active but there's a glass ceiling if you will because cloud's not yet here in full throttle, capital markets mechanics have not yet formed, but there's funds of funds they're just putting this in place, your assessment of the entrepreneurial landscape here. >> I think it's a small, but growing landscape. I think a key point to making an entrepreneurial company successful, you know I started the company back in 1991, which is many, many, many, many moons ago, but anyway, what I can remember is I worked so hard, seven days a week, the joke was it was nine to five, 9 am to 5 am, you're not here on Saturday don't bother coming on Sunday. So fundamentally there's a thing you got to do, what is it Ben Franklin used to say? It's about 99% perspiration, 1% inspiration. So hard work does help a lot. Not to say that we don't have that culture here, but I think in general-- >> They were hard working here. >> Entrepreneurial is all about making sure you do the work. >> One of my observations, they're hard working here, so I think that's a good sign. >> Absolutely. >> So let's go back and talk about this, your experience, you mentioned 1991, my first start-up was 1997, and so we've seen a few cycles, and as cycles come and go this one seems to be a bigger cycle in the sense of a lot of combining forces going on; you've got cloud scale, the role of data and now A.I. to automate, and honestly traditional stuff is kind of being moved to a whole 'nother operating model. Given that you've seen so many cycles, what have you learned from those cycles that you could apply here if you were an entrepreneur here, you're now going to do some business hopefully here I think with Amazon. And for people in government trying to get out of the way or figure out policy, given your cycle experience, these guys are jumping into a wave that's coming. >> I definitely have a point of view on this. So for years, back in the United States, I would have one customer, I'd go to this customer, and I'd say, hey, this other customer over here, they've done it this way, and this customer would say, I want to do it a different way. And I'm like, well then everybody's going to be out of sync. Well recently the CIA decided to publish a case study that talked about moving to the cloud and why they moved to the cloud. And the reason they published this case study was for something called reciprocity. I think if more governments, if more industries can work together from a standpoint of reciprocity, then we're going to be able to more quickly ascertain the threat, discover what the vulnerability is, and mitigate it. >> What specifically the reciprocity should they be working on? Data transfer, information, what are some of the specifics? >> I think a specific will be the NIST Framework as an example. The NIST Framework is made up of 1100 different controls, which are lots, and lots of different subsets of other controls around the world, whether you're talking about ISO, Gramm-Leach-Bliley, HIPAA, whatever, they're all derivations of a framework which basically is a common lexicon. So for me that's something that is very specific when I think they should consider here. >> So one of the things I wanted to get your thoughts before we end here, is your observations, as you look around here, you're seeing a cultural shift, a woman's on the supreme court in Bahrain, we went to the women's breakfast that Teresa Carlson held yesterday, packed house, they had to kick us out of our table, us guys. >> They did, they did. >> They got to make room for the workshop, great fireside chat with Mary Camarata, head of Analysts and corporate communication for Andy and Teresa, fireside chat, then they had breakouts, we didn't get kicked out, but we were asked to give up the table for the women to do the workshop. This was a robust, packed house. >> Not just packed John, it was also just positive, optimistic, happy, they see a future, they see possibilities, there was a lot of give and take, I didn't see any of the stuff that you read about, and I tell ya, this is my first time in the Middle East, my first time to come to Bahrain, and I'm so happy I've come, I'm so sad it took me almost 55 years to make it happen. >> Yeah, I feel the same way. I feel like there's an opportunity bubbling that's going to be really big and legit, and I love the diversity here, it surprised me. My daughter, 21 years old, asked me, she said, dad can you, what's the women like over there? Because there's a perception around culture, around the role of women. Packed house yesterday for the Women in Tech Breakfast, inspirational speech by Teresa Carlson, great workshop here, you see women forcing function; cultural shift. >> Cultural shift, but also don't believe everything you read in the paper, right John? So we all know that you got to go sometimes to see what things are really like, and I'm really happy I came. It's a bubbling, growing, active, really active, really cool nightlife, really cool skyline very beautiful beaches, it's a great place. >> The ground truth always trumps fake news and innuendo. Of course theCUBE is bringing you all the action, we are here with entrepreneur, visionary, John Wood, CEO of Telos, a big strategic partner with Amazon, part of the cultural sea change with AWS, Amazon Web Services, announcing a region here in Bahrain, in the Middle East. I'm John Furrier your CUBE co-host, you can reach me on twitter @furrier, F-U-R-R-I-E-R, if you want to reach out and ping me on twitter any time. More coverage live here, in Bahrain, in the Middle East after this short break. (futuristic electronic music)