from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley Palo Alto California this is a cute conversation hi and welcome to the cube Studios for another cube conversation where we go in-depth with thought leaders driving innovation across the tech industry I'm your host Peter Buress every enterprise has to concern themselves with how they're going to go about ensuring the appropriate access to those crucial applications that run the business this is especially a key question in domains where the applications our seminal feature of the operations how can we set up IT so users see what they should see can access what they can access and that we have control over all about how these systems work and have that conversation we're here with Tony Ferguson an IT infrastructure architect at man energy solutions Tony welcome to the cube yeah thank you so Tony before we get into this crucial question about the appropriate level of visibility and the need for security between people users and applications tell us a little bit about man energy solutions yeah so we're a german-based company I'm working out of Copenhagen but we're part of the Volkswagen Group we have 16 thousand users globally across a hundred locations our company we we make large diesel entrants you also make smaller versions in our own factory and yeah in our company we have a course a lot of my irt on the actual engine and of course we have corporate IT and my job is to secure all of this infrastructure so specifically some of these big diesel engines as I understanding are being placed in locations and use cases that have an absolute requirements for security for example driving a ship is a major feature of the way that your engines are being used within the world so if I got that right yeah yeah that's correct and yeah and then the scale of this you know the number of engines and the number of vessels we need to access and the data we collect it is critical infrastructure we also have power plants so it's really important that we secure this infrastructure so it's a it's a it's a very it's an infrastructure that has very interesting physical characteristics but also has very interesting security characteristics as you went into thinking about how you're going to improve the applicability of the overall infrastructure that you use to drive your business use cases what were some of the issues that you find yourself struggling with yes so yeah a lot of issues actually one of the first things is that we wanted to authenticate the actual engineer and we wanted to make sure that the right people got to the right assets and we wanted to make sure that a thing dication was strong so like the two-factor multi-factor authentication and we wanted to show that the all the data between their engineer and the vessel was encrypted and another big problem for us is scale we need to scale the solution and one of the one of the things as these get brought for us is namespace routing we had the ability to really scale the system without using IP addresses were actually networking so this solved really a lot of problems for us and trying to get those engineers to all of the assets and the IOT on the engine now one of the things that you noted in your as you move forward was this notion of a black cloud where you could formalize the clock the types of relationships you wanted between your engineer users and other users and the Eric the applications you were running on a global scale basis to actually ensure the reliability of the product you had out in the field tell us a little bit about this notion of black cloud yeah so it ties it into a little bit around zero trust but how I see black cloud and how I would describe it is you know everything is dark right so if there's an attacker and he scans port scans of my infrastructure he won't see anything so so basically we would use their tech surface that means that there's no answer back and by doing this we we remove all these vulnerabilities all these zero-day vulnerabilities were remove this and in the same time we stall out that engineer to commit to their assets now how does that work in an environment that is as physically constrained as you know integrating or networking internet working with seagoing vessels yeah so of course a lot of this connectivity is over satellite and of course it's across the internet so it's important that we encrypt into end and it's important that we allow the right engineers to the right customers and we're able to access all these resources and to do Federation and make sure there's strong authentication for our customers we can we really tell them that this all the similar structure is completely secured dark and it's extremely difficult to to come into this black cloud so you've got a challenge the challenge that we've set up here is that you've got a use case that is constrained by the characteristics of the physical infrastructure where the security needs are absolutely paramount and still has to scale and very importantly be evolvable to allow you to be able to provide future classes of services that will further differentiate and improve your business that suggests that these decisions you had to make about the characteristics of the solution was gonna have an enormous impact ultimately on what you could achieve tell us a little bit about the thought process as you went through as you chose a set of sub technology suppliers to help you build out this black cloud and this application set yeah so we looked at a lot of different solutions but a lot of these solutions were based around the old knit work style right around VPNs around having files and around having ACLs and a lot of this is really network centric and what we were looking for is something that was more application centric something that moved up the stack and started to look at policy around what the user would want access to so putting those users and applications together and create meaningful policy based on the DNS rather than on the IP layer and this was really important for us to be able to scale and really make meaningful policy so in many respects it allowed you to not to necessarily de-emphasize but refocus your network design engineering and management efforts from device level assets and perimeter level assets to some of the assets that are really driving new classes of value the applications the users and the data that these engines are streaming and the models that you're using to assure optimal performance of them have I got that right yeah that's exactly right it's extremely important that that we don't have electrical movement you know we look today there's all sorts of were mobile malware attacks ransomware and you know you can imagine if something got into into this cloud that you wouldn't want to let remove so it's not just about the products but it's also about making sure that all these assets are designed from the ground up that that dark as well all right that even on the interns that they can't speak to each other all these very limited connectivity there Tony this has been a fascinating conversation about how you've taken this notion of a black cloud and applied it to a really crucial business case within man energy but I got to believe that this sets you up for a range of other use cases that the investments you've made here are gonna offer new classes of payback in a lot of different use cases how are you going to roll this black cloud concept using Z scalar out to the rest of the organization and the rest of the work that's being performed yeah it's a good question um so when we first looked at this technology we thought it was perfect for consultants because we could have very specific access policies and just allow them to the SS we will be required but then we also saw that there were so many other user cases here for example we are moving our applications from our data center to AWS and to Azura and as we move those applications the users need to connect to this so where would you have this black cloud and have the connectivity to it but we're not opening this to the Internet so you know as far as you're concerned I don't even have any resources or a service in AWS because it's black it's dark so there's a huge amount of security that we can add to this and then there's also a lot of other user cases like company mergers we had to buy a company so we could use this technology to to move to another company together because you don't need to worry about the network anymore you just worried about getting applications to users so I there's a number of great applications for this technology and I really see that this technology will really grow and I'm really excited about it so moving away from a physical orientation of the network to a more logical application and user oriented services or any care orientated a vision of the network has opened up a lot of strategic possibilities what's been the cost impact yes so it what's quite interesting we when you move to the cloud and move to a company like Z scalar is there a software company so forget about all the hardware you can imagine we have a hundred locations globally so we don't have to install all the hardware we don't have to have VPN concentrators we just have to have some software on the client some software the connectors in the cloud and then Z scalar do the magic so for the business they really love this technology because it is very simple it's sitting in the background they don't have to log on to the VPN all the time so it's very seamless for the user and for us we save a lot of money on buying hardware and appliances excellent Tony Ferguson I want to thank you very much for being on the cube Tony Tony Ferguson's the IT infrastructure architect at man energy solutions I'm Peter Burris once again until we have another cube conversation you [Music]

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hi and welcome to the CUBE studios for another CUBE conversation, where we go in-depth with thought leaders driving innovation across the tech industry, I'm your host, Peter Burris. Every enterprise has to concern themselves with how they're going to go about insuring the appropriate access to those crucial applications that run the business, this is especially a key question in domains where the applications are a seminal feature of the operations. How can we set up IT so users see what they should see, can access what they can access, and that we have control overall about how these systems work. No to have that conversation, we're here with Tony Ferguson, an IT infrastructure architect at MAN Energy solutions, Tony, welcome to theCUBE. >> Yeah, thank you. >> So, Tony, before we get into this crucial question about the appropriate level of visibility and the need for security between people, users, and applications, tell us a little bit about MAN Energy Solutions. >> Yeah, so we're a German-based company. I'm working out of Copenhagen, but we're a part of the Volkswagen group, we have 16,000 users globally across 100 locations. Our company, we make large diesel engines, we also make smaller versions in our German factory. In our company we have of course a lot of IoT on the actual engine, and of course we have corporate IT. My job is to secure all of this infrastructure. >> So, specifically, some of these big diesel engines as I understand it, are being placed in locations and use cases that have an absolute requirement for security. For example, driving a ship is a major feature of the way that your engines are being used within the world, have I got that right? >> Yeah, that's correct, and the scale of this, the number of engines and the number of vessels we need to access and the data we collect. It is critical infrastructure, we also have power plants, so it's really important that we secure this infrastructure. >> So it's an infrastructure that has very interesting physical characteristics but also has very interesting security characteristics. As you went into thinking about how you're going to improve the applicability of the overall infrastructure that you use to drive your business use cases, what were some of the issues that you find yourself struggling with? >> Yeah, a lot of issues actually, one of the first things is that we wanted to authenticate the actual engineer, and we wanted to make sure that right people got to the right assets, and we wanted to make sure that authentication was strong, so like the two-factor, multi-factor authentication. And we wanted to ensure that all the data between the engineer and the vessel was encrypted. And another big problem for us is scale, we need to scale the solution, and one of things that Zscaler brought for us is name-space routing, we had the ability to really scale this system without using IP addresses, or actually networking. So this solved really, a lot of problems for us in trying to get those engineers to all of the assets and IoT on the engine. >> Now one of the things that you noted as you moved forward, was this notion of a black cloud >> Yeah. >> Where you could formalize the types of relationships you wanted between your engineer users and other users, and the applications you were running on a global scalable basis to actually ensure the reliability of the product you had out in the field. Tell us a little bit about this notion of black cloud. >> Yeah, so it ties in to a little bit around zero crust, but how I see black cloud and how I sort of describe it is, everything is dark, right, so if there's an attacker and he scans, bulk scans my infrastructure he won't see anything, so basically we reduce the tech surface. That means that there's no answer back and by doing this, we remove all these vulnerabilities, all these zero day vulnerabilities, we remove this and in the same time we still allow that engineer to connect to the assets. >> Now, how does that work in an environment that is as physically constrained as integrating or inter-networking with sea-going vessels? >> Yeah, so of course a lot of this connectivity is over satellite, and of course it's across the internet, so it is important that we encrypt end to end. And it's important that we allow the right engineers to the right customers and we're able to access all these resources and to do federation and make sure there's strong authentication for our customers. We can really tell them that this, all this infrastructure is completely secured, dark, and it's extremely difficult to come into this black cloud. >> So you've got a challenge, the challenge that we've set up here is that you've got a use case that is constrained by the characteristics of the physical infrastructure, where the security needs are absolutely paramount and still has to scale, and very importantly be evolvable to allow you to be able to provide future classes of services that will further differentiate and improve your business. That suggests that these decisions you had to make about the characteristics of the solution was going to have an enormous impact ultimately on what you could achieve. Tell us little bit about the thought process you went through as you chose a set of technology suppliers to help you build out this black cloud and this application set. >> Yeah, so we looked at a lot of different solutions but a lot of these solutions were based around the old network style, around VPNs, around having firewalls, and around having ACLs. And a lot of this is really network-centric and what we were looking for is something that was more applications centric, something that moved up the stack and started to look at policy around what the user would want access to. So putting those users and applications together and creating meaningful policy based on the DNS, rather than on the IP layer, and this was really important for us, to be able to scale and really make meaningful policy. >> So in many respects, it allowed you to, not to necessarily de-emphasize, but refocus your network design, engineering, and management efforts from device-level assets and pre-liminal level assets-- >> Yes. >> To some of the assets that are really driving new classes of value, the applications of users and the data that these engines are streaming and the models that you're using to assure optimal performance of them, have I got that right? >> Yeah, that's exactly right. It's extremely important that that we don't have lateral movement, we look today, there's all sorts of wormable malware attacks, ransomware, and you can imagine if something got into this cloud that you wouldn't want it to laterally move. So it's not just about the products but it's also about making sure that all these assets are designed from the ground up, that they're dark as well, right. That even on the chance, that they can't speak to each other or there's very limited connectivity there. >> Tony this has been a fascinating conversation about how you've taken this notion of a black cloud and applied it to a really crucial business case within MAN energy, but I got to believe that this sets you up for a range of other use cases, the investments you've made here are going to offer new classes of payback in a lot of different use cases. How are you going to roll this black cloud concept using Zscaler, out to the rest of the organization and the rest of the work that's being performed? >> It's a good question, so when we first looked at this technology, we thought it was perfect for consultants because we could have very specific access policies and just allow them to the assets where we required. But then we also saw that there was so many other user cases here, for example, we are moving our applications from our data center to AWS and to Azure, and as we move those applications the users need to connect to this. So we're able to have this black cloud and have the connectivity to it, but we're not opening this to the internet. So as far as you're concerned, I don't even have any resources or servers in AWS because it's black, it's dark. So there's a huge amount of security that we can add to this, and then there's also a lot of other user cases, like company mergers. We had to buy companies so we could use this technology to merge another company together. Because you don't need to worry about the network anymore, you're just worried about getting applications to users. So I think there's a number of great applications for this technology, and I really see that this technology will really grow and I'm really excited about it. >> So moving away from a physical-orientation of the network to a more logical, application and user oriented, services orientated version of the network has opened up a lot of strategic possibilities. What's been the cost impact? >> Yeah so what's quite interesting, when you move to the cloud and move to a company like Zscaler, they're a software company, so forget about all the hardware. You can imagine we have a hundred locations globally, so we don't have to install all the hardware. We don't have to have VPN concentrators, we just have to have some software on the client, some software connectors in the cloud, then Zscaler do the magic. So for the business, they really love this technology because it is very simple, it's sitting in the background, they don't have to log on to the VPN all the time. So it's very seamless for the user, and for us, we save a lot of money on buying hardware and appliances. >> Excellent, Tony Ferguson, I want to thank you very much for being on theCUBE >> Thank you. >> Tony Ferguson's an IT infrastructure architect at MAN Energy Solutions, I'm Peter Burris, once again, until we have another Cube Conversation. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Chicago, guys and gals. Lisa Martin here in Chicago with Ansible Fest 2022 with John Furrier. John, we've had great conversations. This is day two of our coverage. We were here yesterday. >> Yeah. >> We're here today. We've gotten to talk with great folks in the Ansible community, the partner ecosystem customers. We've broken some news that they've talked about. Now we're going to talk about industrial automation, IT/OT convergence. What excites you about this conversation? >> Yeah, this is going to be a great segment. This is one of the feature keynote presenters, customer Rockwell. Huge in OT, IT, edge, robotics, plants, equipment. Everything that we probably have, they do. This guest has really great story about what's cutting edge and what's relevant in the edge and IT slash automation area. Super relevant. Looking forward to the segment. >> Yes, please welcome David Rapini, the Global PlantPAx business manager at Rockwell Automation. David, great to have you on theCUBE. >> Thank you. Nice to be here. >> Give the audience a bit of an overview of Rockwell Automation and then let's dig into what you guys are doing there. >> Sure. Rockwell Automation probably is the largest global automation provider of equipment focused exclusively on automation. About 22,000 employees. About 7 billion kind of revenue numbers. We make, basically, controllers for the automation industry, industrialized software, power drives, you know, of the robotics content, smart cart kind of applications. >> Lisa: And what are your key industries that you're covering? >> Wow, so that's a broad market. So we do a lot of different industries. So we cover, obviously, oil and gas, life science, water, wastewater. We do automotive. So just about any industry, actually. Any place that needs industrial automation covering any type of manufacturing process or any type of process application. We're pretty much there. >> John: You know, it's interesting, IOT has been a word, in and of things, light bulb, wearables, industrial IOT where you're in is a really key space. It's physical plants. Sometimes it's sensitive critical infrastructure for governments, businesses. >> David: Exactly. >> I mean there's running stuff. >> David: Definitely. >> This is huge. >> Yeah, and it's a big area for us, like getting that data, you know, everybody talks about analytics and what the world's going to be happening to in that IT, OT space. And Rockwell's really well positioned at that lower level where we actually own the data, create the data for all that analytics that you're talking about. >> What was your main message today on stage? I want to replay that here and then get into it because I think this is really, we're starting to see, real traction in adoption, in automation, cloud scale, edges happening, exploding. What was your key message on stage today? >> Yeah, I think it's that the world's really changing in that space. You know, five years ago you would have had a completely different message around, you know that connectivity and having that content actually delivered to that space and having, like even the connectivity to that OT space makes people uncomfortable in that world because there's obviously moving pieces, you know, damage to equipment, you know God forbid any types of explosions or things like that on bad environmental type conditions. So we're working in that space to really make those connections much more open and now that those connections are starting to happen and we're getting more and more comfort with that, in that layer, there's a lot more we can do in that space which is kind of why we're here. >> And talk about why Ansible and what it's going to be able to unlock for Rockwell to be able to achieve. >> Sure. There's a lot of areas that we want to play with, but our, in Ansible but our first targets are really our, primarily our servers. So there's a lot of edge based servers out there, you know, we call them a pass server, which is a process automation system server. And there's an engineering workstation operator, which are those main core servers. Some of them are redundant, you know, the OT guys to them it's a burden to manage that content. They're good at making, you know, oil and gas they know how to do water wastewater. They know how to build cars. But managing servers, you know, not in their wheelhouse. >> John: Not in their wheelhouse.(laughs) >> Exactly. Right. So having that capability and that connection to get down there gives us some power with Ansible to go ahead and start building them initially. So making that initial builds out of the gate. That makes them really consistent and built together, so every application looks and feels the same and they know what they're going to get when their servers power up. So that's a big one. But, but just maintain them, keeping them patched, you know keeping security vulnerabilities down. You know, I was in a facility not long ago that was still running Windows 2000. Right. So, you know, they have an application there that's just working. It works. They don't want to touch it and it's been running for 20 years, so why touch it? Right. So this was going to kind of hopefully break that challenge. >> Make sure that you keep that password handy. (laughs) >> David: Yeah, exactly right. (laughs) >> We've had (indistinct) people leave. What about the security aspect is OT has been locked down, mindset, hardened, end to end, supply chains, vetted. Everything's kind of tight on the old OT model. Relatively secure when you get to IT, you mentioned vulnerabilities but the innovation's there too. So how does that reconcile for you? What's your reaction to that? >> Yeah, we see a big move there, right? So it used to be they were always head head to head butting heads IT, OT, you know it focuses on, you know, keeping the system secure keeping the data down, locked down, and reliable. OT focuses more on production, right? Making sure they hit their numbers in the production. So oftentimes, you know, having it push out a patch in the middle of production line in the middle of a day and rebooting a server shuts down production and you know, that those kind of conflicts. Yeah, exactly. So those conflicts were, were pretty common. There's still a lot of that there, but it's getting better. Yeah, right. And I see more and more of that working together as a team to, to solve a lot of those challenges. And honestly, I keep going back to the analytics angle and the diagnostics and that world of deep data, you know, big data kind of mining, you know, without the IT space to cover that the cloud data storage, the horsepower. >> If you had to kind of like rank the complexity 'cause we were just talking before you came on about things got to get complex before they can get simpler 'cause the inflection points bring that new capability. What's some of the complexities that you're seeing that are going to be either abstracted away or solved with some of these new technologies like Ansible and others that are coming fast? Cause at the end of the day it's got to still be easier. It's not going to be hard. That can't be harder. >> Yeah. So I'll give you a real world example that's a little embarrassing. So today we deliver our past servers as a solution and we we provide that as a VM image that people start with as the first building block. But once you start to deploy that and actually connect it with the rest of the infrastructure, hook it up to our factory talk directory, hook it up to the DNS service, once you start doing all that work it's about 700 mouse clicks that somebody has to know what they're doing to actually spin it up the rest of the way and get it connected with Ansible. We're cutting that number like in half is the hope. So, and, and we're going to continue to expand that and make it even less work for the users to >> Talk about skill gap issue. The training alone on that is to have the right people. >> That's the second big piece, right? So, so those OT people typically don't have that skill set. So you have to have a fairly high skilled level person to do that work. We're hoping to take that, that work off of them and put that on on answer. >> Yeah, that sounds pretty consistent. Do you think, is that the, kind of the consistency of the problem space is that the OT just has a different goal and they just need something to be invisible and easy, like electricity? >> Yeah, I think so. Especially in this world, right? In that OT space, right in in that IT space. Sorry. Yeah, so, so managing servers and things like that it's just is not what they want to want to deal with and it's not what they went to school for and it's not what they're doing when their job when they get hired. Right. Yeah. >> It sounds to me like Rockwell Automation is a facilitator of the IT and OT folks coming together and actually working better together, maybe understanding each other's requirements, goals, objectives. >> Most definitely. So we have, you know we are offering a lot of cloud content now. We're continuing to expand that content. We're working with a lot of different IT departments and OT departments to try to marriage those two groups together to try to bring that stuff together. We have a partnership with Cisco where we actually, you know, industrialize you know, some of their switch components and sell that as as part of our content and that relationship gives us a big inroad with a lot of the IT departments. >> That's important to have that be able to speak the language of both sides. >> Yeah, definitely. Right. Knowing and understanding the terminology and just being able to know the challenges that IT guys face as well as the OTs is really a big component of what we do. >> You know, one of the questions I wanted to ask and 'cause the keynote was very cool, but you made a comment that your claim to fame was that you wrote the code for the Spider-Man ride at Universal. Tell a story. How does that work? I'm just, I've rode them many times. So take us through that little journey. >> Yeah, so I, every time people ask me what we do for a living and automation, you know, I can talk about, you know, making cars and things like that, but it doesn't ring troops. So I did do a lot of work on Spider-Man Ride which is at Universal Studios, you know it was a real challenge, making sure you know how that connections actually work and make, I did most of the motion control content for that to make the movements of the cars, you know, seamless with the backgrounds. Definitely a lot of fun. So those kind of projects are rare but they're really fun when you get those. >> I hope you have a free pass for any time you want to go on it. >> I don't, unfortunately. >> Oh, you should. >> I try to get in the backrooms all the time at that facility but it's rare to hear. >> I mean it's like, it's a high end rollercoaster machine. It's like, I mean that is this robotics, industrial cause, this, I mean it's an intense ride. >> It is, and you know, you never move more than like eight feet on that whole ride and it feels like you've dropped, you know 2000 feet out of the sky on some of that content. So it's really amazing. I will say it's a little dated. I've been writing on the part of my team worked on the the Harry Potter rides, which are much next generation. >> I couldn't get on that one, line was too long. >> It's a long way, but it's worth it. >> Dave I asked you a question on the future for people watching who are new observing industrial IOT. What's the most important story going on in your world today? Is it the transformation? Is it the standards? Is it the security? What's, what are the top two or three things that are going on that are really transformative right now in automating at the edge? >> I really want to say that it's standardization. It's about using open standards and standard protocols to deliver content in a reusable fashion. So, you know, having custom proprietary content like a lot of automation suppliers or even like a lot of other industries, it's hard to maintain. It doesn't work well with other products. It's great 'cause you can do a lot of flexibility what you want to do, but at the end of the day it's about keeping the thing running and hooking it up to other components so that open standards based solution you'll see us spending more energy on you know, part of the Ansible open community thing is nice in that space as well. And you'll see us doing more stuff in that place that, that play. >> Talk about your influence there in the community. You know, we, we've been talking the last couple of days about Ansible is nothing if not the power of the community, the collaboration within. Talk about being able to influence that and what that means to you personally as well as to Rockwell. >> Yeah, so open communities are big for us. We have, you know, obviously a customer advisory boards and things like that that we deal with but we also have an open community forum where people can share dialogues and share ideas. We have large events, we have a process solution users group events where we bring in, you know hundreds not thousands of engineering people to to talk to all of these problems that they're facing. And it's not a Rockwell event it's a, you know, community event, right. Where we actually are talking about, you know what industry problem people are seeing. And a lot of the IT OT convergence thing is really top of mind. A lot of people say no minds especially the cybersecurity content. >> What are some of the things that you heard the last couple of days, announcement wise? Obviously big news coming out today that excites you about the direction that Ansible's going and how it's responding to the community. >> Yeah, I think a lot of their feedback that they get and sitting a lot of these sessions, they get a lot of interesting feedback from their customer base. And reacting to that I think is very high on their priority list. And what I've been seeing here, you know, some of the AI stuff that they were showing on automatically, like defining some of the scripts for their code that intelligence behind a lot of that content was amazing. I see a lot of that moving forward. And we're heading the same direction at Rockwell as well with more AI in our company. >> The data's a big story too coming out of all the devices, analytics, great stuff. >> Yeah, I'm pulling that data up into the cloud space and trying to do something valuable with all that data. It's, you know, we've had big data for a long time. It's just figuring out analytics and how to actually act on that data and get it back into the control to do something with. >> It's all getting aside. My serious question on this is that, you know is it the year finally OT and IT converge? Seems like it's been trying for about a decade. >> Yeah, that's a tough one to answer. So I would say it's not there yet. I think there's still a lot of conflict in that space. You know, the OT guys still have a long history of that space, but as you see more retirement and more people phasing out of that and younger crowds coming in, you know the automation space is ripe for that kind of transition because coming out of college, you know jumping into automation isn't always the top of the notch. A lot of people want to go work at the big Amazons or wherever. >> A lot, a lot of stuff going on in space. It's pretty cool. A lot of physical, I've seen a lot more machine learning and physical devices in the industry we've been reporting on. It's interesting. I think it's close to a tipping point because we saw machine learning and the trivial apps like chat bots never really took off, yep. Just expert systems basically, but they're not really going the next level. So now they are, you're starting to see more, you know of wisdom projects, you know, different models being adopted. So I see AI now kind of kicking up similar to OT IT. >> Yeah, most definitely. You know, we have a lot of projects in that space like doing predictive analysis on, let's just say something simple like a pump, right? If you have pumps out there that are running for years and years, but you notice that there's a trend that on day 305 or whatever you know, a bearing starts to fail all the time. You know, that kind of analytics can start doing predictive maintenance content and start pushing out work orders in advance before the things fail because downtime costs millions of dollars for these maintenance. >> Downtime also incidents, right? So you never know, right? >> Exactly. Right, right. So it's good to have that safety net at least from a manufacturing perspective. >> Final question for me. What's the most exciting thing going on in your world right now if you had to kind of pick one thing that you're most jazzed up about? >> I have to say, you know, Rockwell's doing a big shift to cloud-based content and more big data numbers like we were just talking about for that AI. That complexity of what you can do with AI and the value that you can do to like just, you know if I can make quality of a product a half a percent better that's millions of dollars for my customer and I see us doing a lot of work in that space and moving that forward. That's big for me, I think. >> And what are some of that, my last question is what are some of the impacts that customers can expect from that? >> Yeah, so everything from downtime to product quality to increasing production rates and volumes of data that come out. You know, we do something called model predictive control that does, you know, very tight control on control loops to improve like just the general product quality with a lot of the big data numbers that are coming in on that. So you'll see us moving more in that space too to improve you know, product quality and then downtime. >> And really driving outcomes, business outcomes for your customers. David, thank you so much for joining us on the program, sharing what Rockwell Automation is doing. We appreciate your insights, your time and we want to keep watching to see what comes next. >> Sure. Glad to be here. It's great. Thank you very much. >> Our pleasure. For our guest, our John Furrier. I'm Lisa Martin. You've watched theCUBE Live in Chicago, Ansible Fest 2022. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

>> Hello and welcome to a special CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE on theCUBE. We're here in Sundance 2018 at the Intel Tech Lounge for a panel discussion with experts on the topic of The New Creative. We believe a new creative renaissance is coming in application development and also artistry. The role of craft and the role of technology and software coming together at the intersection. You're seeing results in the gaming industry. Virtual reality, augmented reality, mixed reality. A new wave is coming and it's really inspiring, but also there's a few thought leaders at the front end of this big wave setting the trends and they're here with us in this special panel for The New Creative. Here with us is Brooks Browne, Global Director of VR at Starbreeze Studios, a lot to share there, welcome to the panel. Lisa Watt, VR Marketing Strategist at Intel, Intel powering a lot of these VR games here. And Winslow Porter, co-founder and director of The New Reality Company. Many submissions at Sundance. Not this year, but a ton of experience talk about the role of Sundance and artistry. And then we have Gary Radburn who's a director of commercial VR and AR from media within Dell, Dell Technologies. Guys, welcome to this panel. Lisa, I want to start off with you at Intel. Obviously the Tech Lounge here, phenomenal location on Main Street in Sundance. Really drawing a massive crowd. Yesterday it was packed. This is a new generation here and you're seeing a younger demographic. You're seeing savvier consumers. They love tech, but interesting Sundance is turning into kind of an artistry tech show and the game is changing, your thoughts on this new creative. >> Yeah, it's been amazing to watch. I've been here for, this is my third year coming back with VR experiences. And it's really just been incredible to see. Sundance has been on the leading edge of exploring new technologies for a long time and I think this is, I feel like you know this feels like the break out year really. I mean, it's been successful the last few years, but something about this year feels a little bit different. And I think maybe it's the people are getting more familiar with the technology. I think the artists are getting more comfortable with how to push the boundaries. And then we certainly are getting a lot out of seeing what they're doing and how we can improve our products in the future. >> We were talking yesterday, Lisa, about the dynamic at Sundance. And you were mentioning that you see a few trends popping out. What is the most important story this year for the folks who couldn't make it, who might be watching this video that you see at Sundance? Obviously it's a great day today, it's snowing, it's a white day, it's beautiful powder, greatest snow on Earth. But there's some trends that are emerging. We had a march this morning, the Women's March. You're seeing interesting signals. What's your view? >> I think there's a lot less desire to put up with subpar experiences. I mean I think everyone is really starting to push the boundaries, I mean, we saw a lot of 360 video which we love for a linear narrative. But they're really breaking out and really exploring what does it mean to have autonomy especially in the virtual reality experiences, a lot more social is coming to the forefront. And then a lot more exploration of haptics and the new ways of extending into more 4D effects, etc. So I think it's very very exciting. We're really excited to see all the new innovations. >> Winslow, I want to ask you, if you can comment, you've been an active participant in the community with submissions here at Sundance. This year you're kind of chilling out, hanging out. You've been on the front lines, what is your take on the vibe? What's the sentiment out there? Because you're seeing the wave coming, we're feeling it. It feels early. I don't know how early it is, and the impact to people doing great creative work. What's that take? >> Well yeah, it's kind of like VR years are like dog years, you know. Like a lot can happen in a month in the VR space. So I had a piece here in 2014 called Clouds. It was an interactive documentary about Creative Code, but that was back when there was only two other VR pieces. It's interesting to see how the landscape has changed. Because CCP Games had a piece there. An early version of E Valkyrie. And unfortunately in the last three months, they had to close their VR wing. So, and then Chris Milk also had a Lincoln piece with Beck. Which was a multi camera 360, actually it was a flash video that they recorded to the DK1. And so that was, seeing that everyone was, saw the potential. The technology was still pretty rudimentary or crude even, we should say. Before any tracking cameras. But every year people learned from previous Sundances and other festivals. And we're seeing that Sundance kind of raises the bar every year. It's nice that it's in January because then there's all these other festivals that sort of follow through with either similar content, newer versions of content that's here, or people have just sort of learned from what is here. >> So I got to ask you. You know, obviously Sundance is known for pushing the boundaries. You see a lot of creative range. You see a lot of different stuff. And also you mentioned the VR. We've seen some failures, you've seen some successes, but that's growth. This market has to have some failures. Failures create opportunities to folks who are reiterating in that. What are some of the things that you can point to that are a positive? Things that have happened whether they're failures and/or successes, that folks can learn from? >> Well, I think that this year there's a lot more social VR. We're connecting people. Even though they're in the same space, they're able to be in this new virtual world together. There's something amazing about being able to interact with people in real life. But as soon as you have sort of a hyper reality where people are able to be experiencing a Sufi ritual together. Things that you wouldn't normally... That they're not possible in the real world. And also, I think that there's issues with lines too. Obviously every year, but the more that we can have larger experiences with multiple people, the more people we can get through. And then more impact we can make on the audience. It's really... We were in claim jumper last year. And we could only get one person in every 10 minutes. And that makes things pretty tricky. >> And what are you doing at Sundance this year? You've obviously got some stuff going on with some of the work you've done. What's your focus? >> So yeah we have a company called New Reality Company where we produce Giant and Tree. It's part of a trilogy where Breathe is going to be the third part. We're going to be completing that by the end of this year. And right now, I would say the best thing about Sundance is the projects, but also the people. Being able to come here, check in, meet new people, see partners that we've been working with in the past. Also new collaborations, everywhere you turn, there's amazing possibilities abound. >> I want to talk about empathy and social. I mentioned social's interesting in these trends. I want to go to Brooks Brown, who's got some really interesting work with Starbreeze and the Hero project. You know, being a pioneer, you've got to take a few arrows in your back, you've got to blow peoples' minds. You're doing some pretty amazing work. You're in the front lines as well. What's the experience that you're seeing? Talk about your project and its impact. >> Well for us, we set out with our partner's ink stories, Navid Khonsari, a wonderful creative, and his entire team to try to create that intensely personal experience kind of moving the opposite direction of these very much social things. The goal, ultimately being to try to put a person inside of an event rather than a game style situation where you have objective A, B, or C. Or a film that's a very, very hyper linear narrative. What is that sort of middle ground that VR itself has as unique medium? So we built out our entire piece. Deep 4D effects, everything is actually physically built out so you have that tactility as you walk around. Things react to you. We have smell, temperature, air movement, the audio provided by our partners at DTS is exceptional. And the goal is ultimately to see if we put you in a situation... I'm doing my best not to talk about what that situation is. It's pretty important to that. But to watch people react. And the core concept is would you be a hero? All over the world, every day people are going through horrific stuff. We're fortunate because we're the kind of people who, in order to experience, say a tragedy in Syria, we're fortunate that we have to go to Park City, Utah and go in virtual reality to experience something that is tragic, real, and deeply emotional. And so our goal is to put people through that and come out of it changed. Traumatized actually. So that way you have a little bit more empathy into the real world into the actual experiences they went through. >> And what's the goal? This is interesting because most of the some stuff you see, the sizzle out there is look at the beautiful vistas and the beaches and the peaks and you can almost be there. Now you're taking a different approach of putting people in situations that probe some emotional responses. >> Yeah. It's a big deal to us. The way Navid like to put it, and I'm going to steal this from him, is you see a great deal of people prototyping on hardware and all of these things, and it's great cause we need that. We need to be able to stand on the shoulders of those giants to be able to do these things. But you see very few people really prototyping what is the concept of story as per VR? We've been doing, at Starbreeze, we've been doing location based for some time now and I've been getting thousands upon thousands of pitches. And whenever you get a pitch, you can pretty much identify, oh you come from a film background, you come from a games background. There's very few people who come down that middle line and go, well this is what VR is supposed to be. This is that interesting thing that makes it very deeply unique. >> What's the confluence and what's the trend in your mind as this changes? Cause you mentioned that gamers have affinity towards VR. We were talking about that before we came on the panel. You know, pump someone in mainstream USA or around the world who does email, does work, may not be there, you're seeing this confluence. How is that culture shifting? How do you see that? Cause you're bringing a whole nother dimension. >> We're trying to go back to a little bit, something about this Sundance being a little bit different. I think in general in VR, you're seeing this sort of shift from a few years ago it was all potentiality. And I think a lot of us, the projects were great, but a lot of us who work in VR were like oh I see what they're trying to do. And people like my dad would be like I don't. I don't see what they're trying to do. But that is shifting. And you're seeing a larger shift into that actuality where we're not quite there yet where we can talk about the experiences every day Americans are going to have. What is the real ready player one that we're actually going to have existing. We're not there yet, but we're much closer every time. And we're starting to see a lot of these things that are pushing towards that. Final question before I go to some of the speeds and feeds questions I want to get with Intel and Dell on is what is the biggest impact that you're seeing with your project and VR in general that will have the most important consequences for societal impact? >> Well, we were fortunate yesterday we had a number of people come through Hero. And a number of them simply actually couldn't handle it. Had to come out. We had to pull people out. The moment we took the headset off, they were, tears were streaming down their face. There's a level of emotional impact VR is extremely able to cut through. It's not that you're playing a character. It's not that you're in a separate world. You are you inside of that space. And that is a dangerous but very promising ability of VR. >> Winslow, could you take a stab at that, I'd like to get your reaction to that because people are trying to figure out the societal impact in a positive way and potentially negative. >> Yeah I mean, so with that, whenever you traumatize somebody else or have the ability to possibly re-traumatize somebody... In Giant, we made sure that we gave them a trigger warning because yeah these things can be intensely intimate or personal for somebody who already has that sort of baggage with them or could be living in a similar experience. In Giant, we witnessed the last moments of a family. As they're convincing their daughter that the approaching bomb blast is a giant that actually wants to play with her. And so we put haptics in the chair so the audience was also surprised. But we let them know that it was going to be taking place in a conflict zone. So if that was something that they didn't want to participate in, that they could opt out. But again, like we didn't know... We had to go and buy tissues like right off the bat because people were crying in the headset. And that's kind of a... It's an interesting problem to have for the sake of what are sort of the rules around that? But also it makes it more difficult to get people through the experience in a timely fashion as well. But yeah, but we're seeing that as things become more real then there's also a chance to possibly impact people. It's the... >> So it's social for you? You see it as a social impact? >> Well, I mean if everyone's experiencing the same thing that can be social, but again if it's a one on one experience, it's sort of like up to the filmmaker to make sure that they have the scruples that they are playing by the rules. Cause there's right now most every piece of content is being released through Oculus, Steam, or Viveport. But there will be... It's heavily regulated right now, but as soon as there's other means of distributing the content, it could take a different sort of face. >> Certainly some exciting things to grab on, great stuff. I want to get to the commercial angle. Then we're going to talk more about the craft and the role of artistry in the creating side of it. Gary, you're the commercial VR expert at Dell. You're commercializing this. You're making the faster machines. We want faster everything. I mean everyone... Anyone who's in VR knows that all the graphics cards. They know the speeds and feeds. They're totally hardware nerds. What's going on? Where's the action? >> Okay, that's such a large question. I mean we've had some great stuff here that I also want to comment on as well. But inside the commercial side, then yeah everybody wants bigger, stronger, better, faster. And to Winslow's comment about the dog years, that really puts the pressure on us to continue that innovation and working with partners like Intel to get those faster processors in there. Get faster graphics cards in there so that we can get people more emotionally bought in. We can do better textures, we can get more immersion inside the content itself. We're working a lot around VR in terms of opening peoples' eyes for societal impact. So VR for good for instance. Where we're taking people to far flung corners of the Earth. We work with Nat Geo explorer Mike Libecki to show the plight of polar bears in Greenland and how they're gradually becoming extinct for an edutainment and a learning tool. The boundaries are really being pushed in entertainment and film. That's always been the case. Consumer has always really pushed that technology. Commercial's always been a bit of a lagger. They want stability in what's going on. But the creation that's going on here is absolutely fantastic. It's taken what is essentially a prosumer headset and then taking it into that commercial world and lit it up. 360 video, its very inception, people are using it for training inside of their businesses and so that's now going out into businesses now. We're starting to see advances in 360 video with more compute power needed. Where, to the point about immersion and getting people emotionally bought in. Then you can start doing volumetric, getting them in there. And then we're also working with people like Dr. Skip Rizzo who was on our panel yesterday where we're starting to go into, okay, we can treat PTSD. Help people with autism, through the medium of VR. So again, that buys into... >> These are disruptive use cases that are legit? >> Yeah. >> These are big time, market moving, helping people... >> Absolutely. And that where it becomes really, really powerful. Yes, we want our companies to embrace it. Companies are embracing it for training. But when you start seeing the healthcare implications and people crying inside of headsets. That's effecting you deeply, emotionally. If you can make that for good, and change somebody's trigger points inside of PTSD, and the autism side of helping somebody in interview techniques to be able to be more self sufficient, it's absolutely awesome. >> This is the new creative. So what's your take on the new creative? What's your definition? Cause you're talking about a big range of use cases beyond just film making and digital artistry. >> Yeah, absolutely so the new creative is like with all the great work that's here, people are looking at film and entertainment. Now the world really is the oyster for all the creatives out there. People are clamoring out for modelers, artists, story tellers, story experiencers to be able to use that inside their commercial environments to make their businesses more effective. But they're not going to have a 360 video production company inside of their commercial organization. And it's then leveraging all of the creative here and all of the great stuff here. Which is really going to help the whole world a lot. >> Lisa, I want to get your thoughts on this cause you guys at Intel here at the Tech Lounge have a variety of demos, but there's a range of pro and entry level tools that can get someone up and running quickly to pro. And so there's a creative range not only just for digital artistry, but also business we're hearing. So what's the... Cause AI's involved in a lot of this too though. It's not just AI, it's a lot of these things. What's the Intel take on this. >> Well I think it's really an interesting time for us at Intel because one of the things that we have that I think probably nobody else has. We have this amazing slate of products that really cover the end to end process. Both from the creation side of the house all the way to the consumption side. And we talk a lot about our processors. We worked on an amazing project, a couple of huge scenes inside of the Sansar environment. Which is a great tool for really democratizing the creation of spaces. It's a cloud hosted service but it utilizes this amazing client-server architecture. We created four huge spaces in a matter of eight weeks to launch at CES. And some of the technologies that Gary was referring to just in pure processing power like two generations old processors were taking three hours to render just a small portion of a model where our newest generation Core i9s with our opting technology took that time to 15 minutes. So when we think about what we can do now, and those technologies are going to be available in even portable laptop form factors. We've got the piece where we were working here SPHERES. They were able to actually make some corrections and some tweaks basically immediately without having to send them off to some render farm. They were able to do those things. And I know Winslow has talked about that as well. What does it mean to you to be able to react real time. And be able to do your creative craft where you are and then be able to share that so readily. And then you know... I just think that's kind of an amazing equalizer. It's really democratizing the creation process. >> Okay the next question that begs for everyone to address is where are we in this progression? Early? What work needs to get done? Where are we holding back? Is it speeds and feeds? Is it the software? Is it the routines, libraries, art? Where's the bottleneck? Why isn't it going faster? Or is it going faster? >> I would, and I'm sure the team would agree here, I would say that one of the key things is the creator tools themselves, right. They are still somewhat cumbersome. We were talking to another filmmaker. He was like I can't even, I have to play the whole piece from the beginning, I can't just go in and edit, you know change control, being able to collaborate on these pieces with other people. I mean, if you can collaborate in a real world space, you should be able to also collaborate in VR and have change control and all those sorts of things that are necessary to the iteration of a project. So we're trying to work with our software partners. They're all doing a really great job of trying to iterate that, but it's going to take some time. I mean I think that's probably the bigger thing that's holding everything back. We're going to be right there with the processing power and the other technologies that we bring to the table. OEM partners are going to be right there with the best devices. I really think it's something we've all got to push for as far as those tools getting better. >> Brooks, comment on anything? You're in the... >> So for me, the thing that's holding back VR in general is actually the art form itself. One of the great challenges, if you look back, at say the history of film... We're at Sundance, so it's probably fairly apropo. Very early on in the early movies, aside from penny arcade machines that you'd actually stare at, they were 10 minute almost like plays that people would go to almost a playhouse and they'd watch this thing. There were not cuts, there were no angles. It was a single wide shot. Great Train Robbery came around and there was this crazy thing they did called an edit. Where they spliced film together. And if you go back and you read, and they did these dolly shots. People will have no idea what they're watching. There's no way people will be able to follow that. Like people were not happy with it at the time. Now it's stuff that children do on their iMacs at home. They do iMacs all the time, they do it on their iPhones, on their Android devices. These are normal languages of film that we have. VR doesn't have that yet. And there's not a great deal of effort being made in that direction. There's people here doing that. So I'm kind of speaking in the middle of the group, but outside of these people, there's only a handful who are really doing that and it's a significant challenge. When people who are the mainstream consumer put on a VR headset, it needs to be more than just a magic trick where they go oh that's cool. And that tends to be the vast majority of experiences. So what is the thing that is going to make someone go oh I get why we have VR as a medium. And we're not there yet. We're in the direction, but that's >> So you mentioned earlier the point where you can tell if someone's from film or gaming or whatever when you talk to them about VR. Who is the future VR developer? Is it a filmmaker? Is it a gamer? Is it a digital artist? What is this evolving? >> It's a kid in his basement who no one knows and is screwing around with it and is going to do something that everyone thinks is stupid. Like, it's going to be that. Basically every major leap in gaming is kind of the same thing. It's when we understand how ludonarrative dissonance works inside of telling how people move around a space. It's about how we do Dutch angle suddenly in film. And these things get invented. It's going to be some kid who's just screwing around who doesn't have the baggage of the language of film. A lot of the people I know in VR have been fortunate to work in film, in games and interactive or web dev. So you come from a lot of places but someone's going to come along who has none of that baggage. And they're going to be... >> Well you guys are pioneers and you're doing it. So for the first person out there that's in their basement, that inspirational soundbite or comment. How can you guys talk to that person or that group? Because this is the democratization, this is what's happening. It's not the gatekeepers. It's real creatives out there that could come from anywhere. YouTube generation, Twitch generation, gaming. What would you say to that person to motivate them and to give them that passion? >> Well it's only going to get easier, faster, cheaper, all these things are happening. But again, yeah I totally agree with what Brooks said. It's really about the culture and about educating the audience and getting them up to speed. There are some VR experiences that as soon as they put on the headset, like somebody who's never done it before, immediately will take it off cause they'll get nauseated. And then there's people, like kids who are like jet fighters. They've seen everything. You could throw like a 30 frames per second experience at them and that doesn't even phase them. They can be, all of a sudden their worlds are changing and they're like bring it because they're ready for that. So I think it's sort of about raising the bar for what the audience is comfortable with, familiar with, educating the community. There's a lot of tools right now, you know with Unreal and Unity that allow people who have very little... They don't need to know C# or C++, they can get started in a lot of like visual. What you see is what you get. Being able to drag things into a virtual room. And the windows headsets that are out. They refer to them as mixed reality, but just even having the ability to flip up the screen and transition from the virtual world to the real world in milliseconds, it allows you to be able to create things more at the speed of thought instead of coming up with an idea, coding it, and making sure it works, and then eventually putting on the headset. The sooner that we can actually be ideating inside this virtual environment is when things will get really interesting. >> So the next question is to take to the next level is what's the playbook? How does someone get involved? How does someone ingratiate into a community? If I'm an artist, I want to get, and I'm proficient with technology, or maybe not, how do they get involved? Is it community driven? Is it social? You guys mentioned seeing social's a big trend here. How do people get involved? What's the track? >> Well yeah you don't just need to go to a grad school or... There's a lot of programs out there that are popping up. Almost every single major state school has like an interactive art program now. And that wasn't the case like two or three years ago. So we're seeing that that's a big shift in the culture. But again, VR is still... It's expensive and it's you know, like VR, I refer to it's in the stage of it's almost like in the neo geo phase, maybe a little before that. But it's the really expensive thing that your friend's neighbor has. Or his older brother or something. You get to play it a little bit, you're like that's great but there's no way in hell I'm going to... You know, I can't afford that or like that just doesn't really work with my lifestyle right now so it needs to incorporate itself into our everyday, our habits. And it needs to be something that... If we're all doing it then it makes sense for us to do it together not just somebody in their basement doing it by themselves. >> Yeah feel free to comment, this is a good topic. >> Oh yeah, absolutely. So what we're doing is sort of about democratization and accessibility. So for people to get into the then they're going to need a rig, they're going to need a headset and previously it's actually been quite expensive to actually take that first plunge into it. So now by democratizing and bringing price points down, it makes it more accessible. That helps content creators because there's now more of an audience that can now consume that content. And the people that can then play with the medium and consume it now have a better reason to do it. So we're working on that. We're also working on the education pieces like Key. It's actually going out there to schools and actually letting them experience VR and play with VR. Because it is a whole new different medium. We've seen film directors and filmmakers go into the VR space and things that worked in 2D film like fast pans and whatever else so the points have already been made don't really translate into VR without somebody losing their lunch. So it is going to be somebody who's coming up who hasn't got the baggage of previous skill sets inside of 2D doing it inside of VR. So we're going to see that. And in terms of the technology, everybody's wanting things to progress. That shows the level of excitement out there. And everybody wants to get into it. Everybody wants to see it go further. And I'm reminded of the mobile phone. Mobile phone, 30 years ago? Two suitcases for batteries, a large brick on the ear and a car antennae. Okay, so where we are now, if you had a time machine and you went back in time to talk to the inventor of the mobile phone, well, I'd be a lot richer because I know sports results and all, but that aside, but you go back and talk to them and you said do you know in 30 years time, everybody is going to be carrying that device? Everybody's going to be dependent on that device? They're going to get social anxiety and separation anxiety if they lose it. And they will probably laugh in your face. >> Alright so since you brought up the phone analogy, since I love that example, are we in the Blackberry moment of VR and no one yet has built the iPhone? Because the iPhone was the seminal moment for smartphones. And you see what happened there. Is VR needing that kind of break? Or is it there? >> I think we're on the cusp. Where we are at the moment with technology, we've had the headsets, which I say have been more in the consumer space, they've been designed to hit a certain price point. We had CES the other week where we've had advancements now in the resolutions of headset that are now coming out. One of the issues was well I can't see texts, I can't read texts. So from a working environment, if you're actually using tools that you would normally use on a 2D screen, you can now translate that and read that text. However, in terms of the tools that people use, why are we trying to put 2D screens into a VR headset? We've got a whole new way of interacting with data. We've got a whole new way of doing things that are going to be more intuitive than the mouse and keyboard interaction that we're used to. Why just translate that. Let's push that envelope and those are the developments that we're pushing our partners and our ISVs to really embrace. >> So it's an evoution. >> It's absolutely an evolution. >> You guys have any thoughts on that comment. That we have that inflection point, are we hitting that, will we see it soon, is it here? >> Well I think it's a very interesting symbiotic relationship between multiple factors. So you know, we hear the cost factor, we hear the technology factor, then we have the content factor. You know I saw an interesting evolution at CES we had created this virtual booth experience so that you could still come to the CES Intel booth without actually having to be there. And I met a guy in there and I was like hey where are you? He goes I've been in here like all week. (laughter) And I was like oh yeah, where do you live? He goes oh I'm in my basement in Nebraska. But he had just, this was Friday when I met him. He'd been in there all week, but in 2D mode. And he had gone out the night before and bought a headset just so he could come back and go in VR mode. And I think, yes, all these factors have to kind of line up, but I do think that content, those experiences that are going to keep people coming back for more. Like these guys literally kept coming back to our booth. Right, to see... >> Content gain. >> To see who was there. And to them at that point, it wasn't really a barrier of cost. It was like there is something that I want to consume therefore I am going to go get what I need to consume it. And I use the analogy of HDTV, right. When we kind of moved over that hump where there was enough content people didn't really care how much that television cost. >> Sports was great. Sports really highlighted HD. >> Yeah. >> But this is a good point. This is a good question to ask. Brooks, I'd love to get your thoughts. Content drives experiences, amazing experiences, but we're building the scaffolding of everything at the same time. So where are we, what's your opinion? >> So here on the Starbreeze side, we're fortunate because we have our own headset. We have the StarVR headset we've been building with Acer. 5K all of that stuff and we're upgrading it over the next year. Our focus has been, we skipped the consumer market very much. We went straight to location based and enterprise. And the reason we did that is because there's a promise of VR at a basic, I don't want to say technology stand point, but from an experience perspective, when it comes to that resolution, when it comes to that field of view, when it comes to these things people expect. Average consumers who go to a movie and they see these giant screens. They want that translated. They don't have the understanding like we do of well, LED panels are actually a pain in the ass to build and it takes a little bit and they flip at their own speeds. Time to photon is not a thing my dad will ever see in his life. But there's a reality that people have a need for that. And it is extremely expensive. It's again the reason we went straight to LBE. But for us it's about marrying the two and consistently trying to match what's happening. So when we're talking about, as I mentioned earlier the technology and how we're standing on the shoulders of giants very very quickly, someone who's doing technology is going to see what we're doing content wise and go well I can do that better technology wise. And then we're just going to keep leap frogging. And it's very similar to the phone in the same way that we're not at the final stage of the phone. Like we're at our stage of the phone and no doubt in 30 years people will laugh at us for carrying anything. The same way we laugh about the briefcases and the giant batteries in the cars we had to pull with us. So it's one of those things that's continually transitional. And VR's in an odd, amazing place. >> Well you know, it was a lot of waves that we've all seen. You mentioned the mobile phone, that's a good one to point to. It feels like the PC revolution to me because the same culture of entrepreneurs and pioneers come from a bunch of different backgrounds. So I'd like to get Brooks perspective and Winslow's perspective on this because I think there's an entrepreneurial culture out there right now that's just emerging very fast. It's not like your classic entrepreneur software developer. So in this movement, in this wave, the entrepreneur is the filmmaker, it could be the kid in the basement, could be the gamer. Those entrepreneurs are trying to find a path. >> Yeah, it's a weird mix. VR is at this odd point where not only is it the people who are wanting to be cutting edge in terms of content or technology, but also that first mover strategy from the business side of things. And so everyone wants to be those guys who are charging ahead because in reality, if you look at the financials around all of this, VR is one of those things that you don't want to finance. It's not nearly as safe as say Marvel Avengers or the next Call of Duty. >> You've got to be, you've got to hustle. >> Yeah you've got to hustle. You've got to make... >> What's your advice? >> Start doing it. That's really it. It's the same advice I used to give to game makers when people would be like well I want to learn how to make games. It's like go to YouTube, download a thing and go do it. There's literally no reason why you can't. >> Are there meetups or like the Homebrew Computer Club that spawned the Mac. >> There are, there are infinite groups of VR people who are more than happy to give you all the terrible and wonderful opinions that come with that. There's no shortage of people. There's no shortage and it's an amazingly helpful group. Because everyone wants someone else to figure out something so they can steal that and then figure out something else. >> Winslow, your advice to entrepreneurs out there that are young and/or 14 to 50, what should they do? Jump right in obviously is a good one. >> Well yeah, experiment, break things, that's really the only way to learn. I would say watch as much VR as you can because sometimes bad VR is the best VR. Because you can learn don't do that. And if you learn, if you put all that together, you can really... It's like this lexicon that you can really follow. Also, I think we... As people in tech, we kind of get obsessed with things like resolution, frame rate, and these are very important, but it's also good to remember, or at least for me, I watch some of the best experiences from storytelling when I was a kid, eight years old on a 12 inch screen that was 640 by 480. You know, like scan lines on the VHS. But for me the story still resonated and it's important to think of story first, but obviously it's a dance between the story and the technology. They kind of have to both organically work together. And if they don't, one thing in the story that doesn't work because the tech isn't supporting it, can throw you out of the experience. >> Other concern entrepreneurs might have is financing. How do I get someone to help me build it? And then doing relationships. Finding relationships that could... One plus one equals more than two, right. So how do you? >> You have to get really creative when it comes to funding right now. Unless you're doing location based, which also requires a certain amount of investment to get it up to a bar where you want to be showing it to people with all the haptic effects when it's heat, smell, vibration, stuff like that. You know, it's not cheap to develop. But as far as like working with film foundations, we're fortunate enough to be sponsored by Fledgling Fund and Chicken and Egg. But we also were able to get partnerships with people like Intel and NVidia. And also work with people who come from a traditional film background. There's not one way to successfully fund a project. There's a million. And that's why it's interesting that the technology's innovating, but also the market place is as well. >> One of the things I want to ask is as any new industry gets building, is cultures form early. DNA forms in the entrepreneurs, in the pioneers. And one of the big hottest topics in the creative world is inclusion and diversity. So what's the makeup of the culture of this new generation? Because democratization means everyone can participate, everyone's involved. What's the state of the community vis a vis diversity, inclusion, and the role of the actors in the community. >> Well I think it's important to understand that VR has a profound ability to place you in somebody else's shoes. The trick though is to make sure that those feel like they're your shoes. But I think that we're learning a lot more about story telling techniques and we're able to empower people that their voices you know were previously not heard. The tricky thing is being able to yeah, educate all different groups of people how to use the technology, but once they're enabled and empowered to do it, it's amazing what you can experience inside the headset. >> So VR can be an enabler for education, outreach, a variety of things? >> Yes, I mean the term empathy, empathy machine gets thrown around a lot. You could do a drinking game around it. For panels when people are talking about it. But it's important to know there is a truth to that. And it's, yeah the perspective shift from looking at a screen, a 16 by 9 screen where you can look away, then dissolving the screen and becoming that person. Becoming the director, the actor, the camera person, the editor. When you're in the first person perspective, there's so much more... It feels more personal and that's a really interesting angle that we're going to continue to explore. >> So you could walk in someone's shoes, literally? >> Yes, you literally can. You just have to make sure that you got a... The tracking system's proper or else you'll look like there's... It can be come a horror movie pretty quickly if your leg is behind your head. >> Lisa, your thoughts on this, I know it's important to you. >> Yeah, I mean I think it's fascinating because I've been in tech for a really long time. And seen many, many trends. I mean the first job I had at Intel I was a PC tech and as you can imagine as a female, I think there was one other tech female in the department at the time and I would get funny looks when I would show up with my bag. They were like hi can I help you? I'm like I'm not here to deliver coffee, I'm here to fix your computer, you know. So I've seen a lot of trends and it's super exciting to me to see so much diversity cross culture, cross country, I mean we're having... We had guys come in from all over the world. From even war torn, they've escaped their country just several years ago and they're coming and they're bringing all that creativity to the market. We're seeing very, very strong female contingent from the filmmaker perspective so it's this wonderful, wonderful just primordial soup of people that I think are growing their own voice and their own power. They're breaking molds as far as how you actually get content produced. Distribution is kind of crazy right now. I mean, how do you get it distributed? There's like so many different ways. But all of those things are so important to the evolutionary and biological process of this. Yes, we need to let it go and sometimes we're frustrated. We're like where's the standards? Where's the one ring to rule them all? Where there's not going to be one. And it's good for us that there's not right now. It's frustrating from a business perspective sometimes. You're like, I can't peanut butter myself around all of these places, but I think it's just a very unique time where so many people are... The technology is accessible, that means that so many creators can now bring their fresh voice to this space and it's just going to be fascinating to continue to watch. >> That's awesome. Well two more questions and I'll give you some time to think about the last one which is your perspective on Sundance, what's happening this year, your personal view of what you think's happening, what might happen during this year. But the question I have for you now is to go down the line. We'll start with Brooks here, and talk about the coolest thing that you're involved in right now. >> It actually has to be Hero. We're debuting it here at Sundance. We've been working on it and not talking about it for about nine months. And it's been very difficult. Again it's sacrosanct to the experience that you don't know literally what you're getting in to. And the emotional response has been essentially our goal, trying to find out how far can we take that. You actually being in a space, moving around, having that interactivity, doing what you would do. But it being your story and how deeply we can absolutely effect a human being. And again, watching people come out, it's one of those things, I've been doing game development, I've worked on films, I've done all kinds of stuff. And you usually get a chance when someone experiences something you've made, you walk up to them and you go so what'd you think? And that's not at all what we can do with ours. >> How has it impacted you, that reaction? >> Well, I personally suffer significant PTSD and I've had some traumas in my life. And so it's been incredibly powerful to be able to share these things with people. Share this emotion in a deeply profound, yet amazingly personal way. Which I'm amazingly fortunate to be able to be a part of it. >> Alright thanks for sharing. Coolest thing that's going on with you right now here at Sundance. >> Just the fact that I'm here at all. I mean, it's incredible right? Personally was able to be an advisor on the SPHERES project that is premiering here with Eliza McNitt. She's someone who was an Intel Science Fair winner back in high school and kind of came back to us. So just to see the evolution of an artist really from the beginning to the point where they've been able to come here to Sundance. I'm also very passionate about the work that we're doing with Sansar. I kind of consider myself one of the chief storytellers at Intel around Virtual reality and this new move into social where people are like well what's this game. I'm like, it's not a game. It's you are the game, you are the interactivity. You become the person that makes the space interesting. We're just really setting the scene for you. And there's so many... You know there's a lot of different people kind of chasing this be togetherness. But what we've been able to produce there. And just to be able to explore some of my own personal ideas has just been such a gift. Then to be working with guys like these on the panels and see what they're doing and just be in touch is really just an exciting time. >> John: Awesome. >> Probably what, other than the people on the projects, or the projects that are being shown here, we're working on our new project, which we would have loved to premiere here, but we did... Basically when you get in, you have two months to create a piece, so you have a demo and you have to finish it, so we're taking a little bit more time. This one's going to be about a year development cycle. It's called Breathe where we take you from where Giant left off, where, in Giant, the ceiling collapses on a family. They're in front of you. In this experience, we use a breathing apparatus to basically bring yourself back to life. And then you realize you're trapped under rubble and you remove the... We actually want to have physical objects on top of you that are going to be tracked. So you're moving rubble from you and you realize that you're a six year old girl. You're the survivor from Giant. And you get to witness what it's like to be a future refugee sort of in different key moments of her life that use breath. Whether it's a flirtatious moment, blowing a dandelion, seeing your own breath in snow as a drone shows you a message that your parents pre-recorded on your 18th birthday. This is all in the future, obviously, but every time you walk around an object, you actually grow 10 to 15 years older in the experience. As you get older, the world becomes smaller. And then we witness what's like for her last breath. From being six years old to being 90 years old. But it's a profound personal experience. >> John: That sounds cool, cool. Gary, coolest thing that you're involved in right now at Sundance. >> Wow. I could say it's all cool that would be a bit trite. They say if you enjoy what you do, is it really a job? And I'm lucky enough to be in that position. Because working with all these guys here and like people around the place, they're doing such great things that every day I wake up and I'm astounded of where the industry's going. In terms of what we're doing here at Sundance, then we're really starting to push those envelopes as well. I've been lucky enough to be involved with Dunkirk and Spider-Man: Homecoming. Like last year, so some great pieces there. And moving out into this year, we've got some other developments which I can't mention at this point, but we're showing things like AR and VR mashup. So we haven't talked much about augmented reality here. It's an evolutionary, it's not a replacement. Both can be used and we've started to really start to blend those two technologies now. So you can still see the outside world. Just touching on the commercial side, and health care's very big for me. That's where I think the really cool stuff is happening. Entertainment is great and that's really pushing the envelope and allowing us to then take it for the good of human kind. >> It happens everywhere, it's not just entertainment. >> Yeah absolutely. You start looking at MRI scans inside of VR or AR. Talking a patient through it so they can actually see exactly what you're talking about. You're now no longer pointing at flat things on a screen. You're now actually taking them through it. If you're using AR, you can actually judge the responses of the patient as for how they're reacting to the news. And effectively, inside of the VR, and what's really cool for me is seeing people's reaction to that content and to the entertainment content. >> That's awesome. Okay final question. This is a little bit of self serving because I'd like you to help me do my job at SiliconANGLE. If you were a reporter and you were going to report the most important stories happening this year at Sundance or really kind of what's really happening versus what's kind of being billed to be happening here. What's the story? What is the story this year at Sundance 2018 in your personal perspective? We'll go down the line and share your observations. >> Well, mine here, I'm a Sundance newbie. This is my first year of being here. I'm absolutely astounded by the community spirit that's around. I go to a lot of technical trade shows and technical presentations. People coming here with a willingness to learn. Wanting to learn from other people. It's been touched on already. It's the pool of knowledge that's available inside of Sundance that everybody that comes here can actually tap into to create better content, to learn not what to do as well as learn what to do. And I just think that's brilliant because in that community spirit, that's really going to help enable this industry quickly. >> John: Winslow, you've got some experience, what's your thoughts? >> Obviously, this Intel house, just a little plug for you Lisa. (laughter) Tech Lounge. We got that? Okay good. I mean, yeah, the people that's here. Every year we come here and see where the high water mark is. All these people are... Some of these teams first started with two people and then they grew to six and then by the end of it, there's 100 people working around the clock, pulling all-nighters to be able to give the latest and greatest of what's available with these current tools. So it's amazing because the work itself doesn't really mean anything until people get to experience it. So that's nice that they make a big splash. The people here are very attentive to it. It's a very nice audience and this will continue the momentum for future festivals throughout the year, but also will excite people that have never done VR before. People who have never been to Sundance before. We're seeing that there's a lot of new people. And that will continue to influence many years to come. >> John: So you think VR is the top story here being told? >> As far as like just to generalize, I would say last year kind of the big VR year. This is kind of the big AR year. Next year's going to be the AI year. Then after that we're going to start putting them all together. >> John: Great, great feedback. >> I think it's just exciting for Intel just to be back here. I think Intel hasn't been here in quite some time. Dell coming in here probably one of the breakout years for us to come back and really talk to creators what we're doing from the Intel Studios all the way through to the stuff you can take home and do at home. And I think coming in, we're coming back here with a purpose really, not just to be here to be seen. We're really here with real things and want to have real conversations on how tech can enable what people are doing. Not just from a brand perspective, but from a real hands on point of view. >> John: Yeah, some great demos too, phenomenal tech. >> Really just, yeah everything from the AI stuff we have to the social to the great new pieces that have been submitted here like we mentioned with SPHERES. So I think, yeah, it doesn't feel gratuitous to me you know that Dell or Intel is here this year. We've really come with a purpose. >> You guys are moving the needle, it's really awesome. We need more horsepower. >> Brooks, your thoughts on Sundance this year. Observation, the vibe, what would you tell your friend back home when you get back? >> If, for me, I think it's almost the non-story. It's like the opposite of a story. It's just the deep integration of VR into the normal Sundance flow I think has been interesting. Some people have been here for a few years. And back in the day when it was one or two, it was a lot of oh, you do VR? What's that then? Whereas now, you see a lot more people who are crossing over. Going to see documentaries, then they come to see a VR piece and it's just a part of the normal flow. And the team at New Frontier has done exceptional work to kind of make sure that they have this ridiculous high level of broad content for all kinds of people. All kinds of experiences, all high end things. But it's not that VR's here. Oh good, we have a VR section. It's a lot more of an integrated set up. And it's been really encouraging to see. >> Well you guys have been great. It's been very inspirational. Great information. You guys are reimagining the future and building it at the same time so entrepreneurially and also with content and technology. So thanks so much for sharing on this panel The New Creative. This is SiliconANGLE's coverage of Sundance 2018 here at the Intel Tech Lounge at the Sundance Film Festival. I'm John Furrier thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

[Announcer] Live from Las Vegas. It's the Cube, covering NAB 2017. Brought to you by HGST. >> Welcome back to the Cube. We are live in Las Vegas at the very exciting NAB show 2017. And I'm very excited to introduce you to our next guest, Andy Shenkler. Andy is the EVP, Chief Solutions and Technology Officer, for Sony DADC New Media Solutions. Andy, welcome to the Cube. Thank you very much for having me. You are a veteran, not only of the media and entertainment industry, but of NAB with this year's theme of the M.E.T Effect. That's the convergence of media entertainment technology. What are some of your initial thoughts about the show this year. >> Well, I haven't had a lot of time to visit the whole show yet, it's only opening day. (laughs) I think that over the last 20 years, of even attending these events, it's been heavily focused on kind of cameras and the backend production technology. And over the last several years, we've seen cloud technology, software driven, IP, interaction take place. Even with the thematic change of it being M.E.T., that's clearly coalescing even more. It's no longer a this is a thing that's coming. It's here. And how do people really take advantage of that as they kind of move forward. >> I'd love to get your perspective as you were saying, you've been in the media and entertainment space for about 20 years. >> Yup. >> Around the time of Nabster. Which is like we were saying before, it's hard to believe that was 20 years ago. I'd love to just get, a high level picture of, You must have seen massive evolution in media and entertainment. Tell us a little about that, some of things that really stood out to you. Over those two decades, as milestones. >> There's clearly the ones that we all as consumers know, right. The iPods and iTunes and the advent of Netflix and Amazon Video and things of that nature. And I think those are the very tangible ones. From behind the scenes, I think it's the challenges that the businesses had to go through, right. How do you actually deal with rights problems that are global in nature, right. You suddenly have a world that's portable. You suddenly have problems where I downloaded something or I want to consume a piece of content that I really enjoy, I get on a plane and I'm suddenly in a territory where I no longer have the right to watch that. Those are significant challenges that have to be overcome. And it's not always just technology, right. There's huge legal issues and things like that. And so there's a real striation between what we as consumers expect to find and what the business needs to do to change to accommodate that ever growing, that consumption rate that people want. >> Absolutely. So tell us about the supply chain solutions that Sony DADC is delivering for the media and entertainment industry. >> Sure. So, we started about nine years ago, and it's not that certainly supply chain solutions aren't nine years old. And I think our perspective on it was one where we were fortunate to start with a white piece of paper, rather than transform a legacy business. And when we did that, we said what does the solution five years from now need to look like? And so we run full supply chain offerings for companies like Sony Pictures, BBC Worldwide, Village Roadshow, PlayStation, Funimation, things of that nature. And we're talking about distribution of content to roughly 15 hundred endpoints globally. So that's multiple languages, multiple versions, trying to keep all of that stuff on track. And really the way we approached the problem was, I know it sounds terrible but, really to get human out of the mix from the perspective of what's actually not good for people to do. Looking at millions of permutations of data is not really a strong suit for people. It's a good strong suit for a computer. It had up to that point in time being relegated to Excel spreadsheets and emails. And we tried to eliminate a lot of that by putting systemic decision-making in place. And that's really what's allowed us to scale at a fairly aggressive pace. >> So are we talking about artificial intelligence, machine learning? >> I wouldn't go so far as to say that. >> Okay. >> Much more rules-based engines, logic around it. So let's take an example. Maybe you have a motion picture, we'll say like a Spider-Man. Spider-Man is made and it's available in 15 countries. Each one of those countries have different compliance and rules, cultural rules. Maybe you can't show certain imagery or you can't have somebody drinking in Saudi Arabia or something like that. So now you've left, you've left customer service reps to have a conversation that a I need you to send this to all of these places. How are they suppose to know all of the possible combinations of things. Then on top of that, not just knowing it, how are they suppose to interrogate a library of millions of assets and say, oh yeah, I figured out all the different combinations of things to make that happen. And do so within the timeline, >> Right, yup. >> to hit a business goal. That worked great in the beginning, when it was, we're going to get 50 titles out. Now we deliver 60, 70, 80 thousand titles a month. Suddenly, that is no longer sustainable for a human project. You couldn't get enough people in this building to go through that much content. >> Got it. So it's really kind of rules-based. So you've got users of the Sony technology, film studios, broadcasters, music labels. Give us an example of say, on the broadcast side, about what they're looking to do with managing assets to meet consumer demand and ensure that it's with this multi-channel distribution model, they're meeting consumer demands, wherever those consumers are. >> So I think from a broadcast perspective, which even in that world, that's blending, there is no traditional broadcaster as we know it anymore, even a broadcaster has VOD services, they might have some sort of mobile provisioning, OTT. And so therein lies there challenge, right. They've put in large infrastructure over many years, They continue to reinvest in that. Along come a Netflix of Google, whomever, with global licensing, the ability to move incredibly rapidly. And so they're looking at it and and saying, how do I compete, how do I stay relevant in this space. Market share as we know, is starting to move away from the broadcast side, linear television per se. And so where we come into play is, we say, we've already got massive amount of content available, you've licensed it already. Let us make that available, let us run that infrastructure for you. Your focus should not be on, how do I make sure that the power plant stays up. But rather, how do I market, how do I differentiate, how do I create a compelling proposition to consumers, so that I can effectively compete as this grows. >> Okay, so you're really helping them to scale on ways that they would never would have been able to do on their own. >> I think we're just helping them get there sooner. It's not to say that they could never do it. I think that's a lot of ego, a lot of hubris. It's very much that we've leveraged kind of our position as Sony, as what we have done for a lot of partners in this space. And we've said, there's a reasonable way to kind of level the playing field. >> Right. >> Right. A supply chain should not be the level of differentiation, right. We don't simply say, oh well, here's a really good manufacturing supply chain, there's only one company who should use it. It should be leveraged by many, many facilities. And so we take that same view from a digital perspective. Traditionally, we've been sending content out all around the world. We've now moved to a model that says, why don't we just host it all singularly, in any format that you want. Your choice, any spec, any DRM, but it's centralized. So for one of our customers in fact, They aired something in Japan, and 24 minutes later, it's available everywhere else. >> Wow. >> That couldn't be done if I also had last mile bandwidth considerations to take into account. And we believe that that 24 minutes is sawed by about half. We think we can get that down to under 10 minutes. >> Question for you. And the speed theme, >> Umhmm. >> Has come up a number of times today, >> Sure. >> with different folks that we've talked about. If we look at a Netflix, as you have brought up for example, from an audience perspective, the audience is so empowered, and we have access to anything we wanted, whenever we want it, bing watching, streaming, we're time shifting. >> Right. >> So you think, wow, Netflix has a great advantage because they know so much about the audience. At the same time, until they started creating unique content, they couldn't really change the content. Versus on the flip side in the film industry, They haven't really historically known their audience. >> Umhmm. >> It's been more of, probably, qualitative data and decisions, at the same time, they can change content. So, do you work with the streaming services, as well as the traditional film studios. Do they have a similar challenge that can be solved by using media as a service? >> So for ones who want to use everything that we offer end to end, again, that level playing field, we give everybody visibility. We believe data transparency is pretty important. We recognize that people hold on to data as kind of the the keys to the kingdom at this point. Certainly Netflix does and they're leveraging it quite well, right. It's hard to find fault with what they're doing from a business perspective. At the same time, as a consumer, you really don't want to have to be potentially loyal to a particular brand, right. That's not how capitalism works, but that's a different problem. But people who run on our platform, we think that there is a good balance. And both sides should have visibility to a lot of that data because it should help each other. They should really, a rising tide should float all boats, and not just create this imbalance. Because it becomes difficult to amortize costs if there's one and only one solution in the market. And that's really how we try and approach that problem. >> So in terms of, what kind of volume of content are we talking about here? >> So we store today, just over 20 petabytes of content, roughly a million hours worth of. This is premium content, so this is not user generated. This is not like youTube clips of somebody's cat. There's probably a couple. There's probably a couple in there. >> (Lisa laughs) >> No grumpy cat in there? >> There might be a few in there but that's not primarily what's what it is. We're talking about high end premium content. And in about 23 languages. So the variations that we have are very high. Now, a lot of times, people will say well, it's easy to get to a million hours because people do bad data. And so they'll store something, they'll store something like Spider-Man with a hypen in the middle or a space or all together. We're actually very, very focused on not having that. So these are all unique assets. So it's a very large library when you look on it on a global scale. >> So how can a a linear network versus a streaming network access a million hours of content. >> We actually don't differentiate between a linear and a streaming network. Because at the end of the day, we're a complete IP solution. The ability to uplink through satellite is fine, it's just another method of transport. But really all they do is, they come to us with their licenses and then we provision the assets for them in their specifications. And we make it available to them anywhere. It's pretty straight forward. We try and take a lot of the heavy lifting off their plate, reduce their infrastructure costs, reduce the team sizes from a scaling perspective so they don't have to grow so much. We really and try to flat rate a lot of this to make it easy and predictable. >> Fantastic. Last question since we're running out of time here. >> Sure. >> I know that you guys have really migrated the media supply chain to the cloud, going all in with AWS. You had mentioned that that had started about a year ago. Tell us about what you're doing with AWS and how has that influenced the genesis of media as a service? >> So I think what I should tell you first is that, when I went to the team to talk about this, I borrowed a line from The Hunt for Red October, where they said Cortez reached a new world and burned his new ship so that his men could not go back. (Lisa laughs) >> We got rid of our data centers first and then told the team we're going AWS. So there was no going back. We were making this move, there wasn't going to be hesitation and an all in model is the only model that worked for us. They hybrid model is just not cost-effective. We had to embrace something that was future proof and seemed like the right one. Where we've benefited from it is, clearly, there is economic advantages. But some of the other advantages, are like what I was talking about before, 24 minute time from receipt to availability everywhere, would have been unthinkable in a completely contained environment, where I had to have huge lead time for scalability. I had to know in advance that I would need more storage or more transporting capacity or more bandwidth. I no longer need to have that level of information upfront. I live in a world of unpredictability. People come in with requests all the time, that I didn't know an hour ago was going to be asked for. I'm finally in a position to be able to offer a solution to all of them that says, go ahead, do whatever you like, our system will manage it and we have confidence in the AWS infrastructure to be able to support that. >> Well sounds like a fantastic partnership that's going to be-- >> It's very good, we're very happy with it. >> Really enabling a lot of, more content creation, more uses of this content in the future. >> And we really want to see that. We want to see people create differentiated solutions for consumers without having to worry about how the sausage gets made. >> Exactly. Nobody wants to know that. >> Nobody wants to know that. (Lisa laughs) >> Well Andy, thank you so much for joining us on the Cube. >> Thank you. >> And sharing your insight. I know you just got to the show not too long ago so we wish you and your feet healthy next few days. >> Thank you very much. >> And we look forward to seeing you back on the Cube sometime soon. >> I appreciate it. Look forward to being with you. >> Alright, we want to thank you for watching. Again, Lisa Martin, live at NAB in Las Vegas. Stick around, we'll be right back. (techno music)