[Music] hi I'm Peter Burris and welcome to another Cube conversation from our outstanding studios in Palo Alto California got a great conversation today we're gonna be talking about some of the challenges and changes taking place in the MSP the managed service provider part of the marketplace made possible by software to find when SD Wang technologies and to do that we've got Alastair Johnson as a principal architect at nuage Networks here with us on the cube today Alastair welcome to the cube Thank You Peter it's great to be here so let's start corporate update nuage Networks what's going on well we've had a pretty good year so far a number of customers that we'll be announcing over the next few months that we've established this year in addition to the the major wins that I'm sure most of the markets familiar with over the last few years we're really seeing that in the managed services space that Sdn is gaining a lot of traction we're finding that particularly outside of North America but with increasing North American interest that enterprises are looking towards a managed SD wine service as opposed to doing it themselves going down the path of having a carrier come in and provide them with both connectivity and the service layer or looking at taking the service layer from a managed services provider and sourcing the connectivity themselves so this is an area that's especially fruitful and open for some significant innovation and innovation that's going to have enormous impact in how the market pays so let me let me run something by you so here's the observation I've made over the years that servers Moore's law meant that there was this kind of smooth growth and performance and even in software it would kind of followed Moore's law but network because of its because of the degree of interplay and natural integration amongst the components there was always this kind of weird step function where every four or five years the big telecommunications companies our managed service providers would make major investments in their networks and you got this very rough course odd step function and that sometimes scared some of these companies away from participating in all the innovation of the cloud have I got that right absolutely I mean the tradition of having both your service layer and your transport layer being coupled you know an IP Network is offering both the IP transport but also the services like MPLS VPNs or layer 2 VPNs has meant that you know the tech lifecycle became relatively long the process to qualify deploy managed and then eventually automate services and the delivery of those services took a long time Sdn has presented a really interesting opportunity for the carrier's as long along with the broader audience in the industry to really leverage software and the frequency of updates the software can give you without needing to make those hardware changes at the same time so you can still do the hardware changes but you get a smoother upward innovation curve absolutely so the underlying transport platforms the routers the DWDM systems etc those can be changed as needed to buy capacity demands or vendor changes or new technology that comes out in those spaces but we can use Sdn or in this case st wan to smooth out the service offering on the top and as it becomes a software delivered function we can upgrade that much faster and we can roll it out much more like we update our you know cell phones our tablets etc and introduce new functionality into the service layer much faster than we were able to do in the past where we had a very much a hardware coupled service offering now I made a comment that in many respects some of the big telecommunications companies some of the beginner Spees have not participated in this explosive innovation that's associated with the cloud and part of the reason is because when you think about cloud someone can say I can think of a new service and then they can create it and deploy because it's largely in software whereas a lot of the telecommunications MSP type companies go I get to give a new service but then they look around and they say oh the hardware's not ready and I don't wait for the hardware to be ready how does this notion of SD win and this software to find service layers start to alter the way that some of these big companies think about their underlying infrastructure cost structures how they think about automation how they go about competing for new services well well it's it becomes a very big competitive differentiator because you know I can be a carrier and I can offer new services much faster a we touched on I'm getting a benefit of automation very quickly because Sdn was heavily around automating the configuration in the service elements and I can become a lot more cost-effective with that you know customers are looking for more self control more self management information Diagnostics tooling etc but without the overheads of running very large IT and network specialized personnel so the carrier's get that advantage the enterprise's get that advantage everyone is getting you know effectively a much more modern service experience we saw that with the cloud I guess revolution if you want to put it that way that you know I no longer needed to order a server put it in a rack deploy an operating system put my application on it take six months that changed with the cloud everyone understands that the network layer did not change it's fast and that's where we saw Sdn and the data centers come along to address that problem that's what we're solving with sd1 as well so when we think about the relationship between big cloud players and some of these nm msps it is that we've got the big cloud pairs that are virtualizing everything the msps are still kind of physically stuck but still have the vast majority of those last miles that are so crucial to having that end and productivity and compatibility absolutely does that start to change as we start to think about new wireless technologies how does SD LAN improve the MS Pease ability to both bring new automation and bri new but also introduced some of these new technologies that will bring make it easier to think cloud last-mile in the same breath well it's an interesting point I mean you could look at an MSP that has no lost mile infrastructure at all.they or maybe reselling a carriers infrastructure or procuring a full their enterprise customers now they have the ability to actually manage the service layer and they could be using carrier a today to reach the customers location but they strike a new deal tomorrow with carry a B and they can swap that customer over effectively changing the engines on the airplane in flight the customer experience doesn't change for the enterprise they're still getting the same Sdn service but maybe they swapped from DSL to cable as a transport or they've added an MPLS service to a new site as well for greater reliability so this allows the msps and the carriers to you know get services out to the customers faster decoupling it from whatever the last mile technology may be and this where there's opportunities for wireless you know we're seeing a lot of interest from enterprises to augment with LTE and in the future 5g as a backup connectivity to their sites particularly in retail I mean I'm sure in Silicon Valley you've seen everyone here is swiping your card on a tablet well you know you don't want that tablet to be offline it needs connectivity or they're not making money so making sure you have reliable connectivity with the same experience is a big deal for these enterprises and and they're msps but it's not becomes part of a coherent solution as opposed to I'm gonna do my cloud thing and I'm gonna do my MSP thing absolutely and so that's another area where we're seeing a lot of interest I mean even if I look at what our internal IT is doing which is you know we need to make sure that the cloud is part of our LAN and we need to make sure that we can you know drop an application in our private data center but have resources in our public infrastructure also using that and the experience for me sitting at my desk down the street from here is the same regardless of where that application is being accessed from all right the last thing I want to talk to you about Alastair is this this notion I have I'm going to test something by you and see if I if I got it right and if I can if I'm anticipating some of the changes over in C so a lot of people presume that the cloud was a one-way ticket to something centralized and big and that had an enormous impact on how people think about the cloud we actually think about the cloud as a strategy in the technology for more easily and coherently distributing data and distributing function to where it needs to be on location basis and in certain respects I can look at the cloud kind of as a network programming model where the some of those hybrid cloud services are they're being introduced by some of the big cloud players now are really almost a layer 7 they're providing some structure to the developer about how to think about building hybrid distributed applications now I want to test that does that resonate with you from a networking standpoint absolutely and again that's something we see a lot of interest in a reasonable amount of demand as enterprises and their internal developers are getting their heads around that concept that the application can live anywhere whether it be on premises at the branch data center or in the cloud and that cloud as you point out can be rightly geographically distributed and being able to be the network glue that binds all of those locations together allows the developer and the IT organization supporting that developer to have you know if the effect of a single fabric regardless of where the application or the user is seamlessly connecting them and so it also suggestions there's nothing on a test with you that that that we are it makes it possible to imagine greater specialization in what those distributed services look like especially from a networking perspective which means that if MSPs and big teller codes do successfully incorporate some of these technologies improve their automate ability their ability to think about the service and then deliver the service very rapidly then we could see them actually being able to pick up a sizeable piece of this cloud business because they can introduce services that are specialized with a network strong network affinity that have that build on that heritage of distribution of function absolutely and you see that today you know the carriers are already providing a valuable service connecting the enterprises to the cloud but that goes beyond in you know an SDN 2.0 model I need to move certain applications to the branch there's some things that always need to live there and as an IT manager I need to manage that networking effectively but I have applications that I want to have that are running you know in a very public cloud you know SAS applications etc and I want to give my users the most efficient path to them but I also have my private applications that it may be running in a public environment but I want to carry that as if it was part of my internal corporate one and being able to get that the from an enterprise you know services perspective from an MSP from a carrier that can bundle all of this together that's a huge advantage and a time-saving for me yeah the one other thing I'd say is that we're actually talking some very large enterprises right now that are discovering that their customers there their customers are demanding very concrete strict and well-documented notions of the capabilities that they provide and this idea of SD wine is making it easier for them to sell services in to companies that want that digital interface that highly competent working digital interface absolutely so it's what last thing is we think about where this is going is there any technology on the horizon that you think Sdn is going to make easier to deploy or that's gonna make SD went that much more important oh that's an interesting question and I think as you know the ongoing digital transformation of business happens you know we're connectivity is more important than ever making sure it's reliable and available and that the user experience regardless of what type of site I'm visiting as a you know an enterprise employee making sure that you know my telephony works that my can access my documents that my R&D teams can span the globe that is a key requirement of today's enterprise at Nokia that's how we need to work internally and that's how we do work I travel around the world visit our offices my experience is seamless in the same and that I think is where Sdn is bringing a huge amount of automation value security in many cases and tell you some great anecdotes that we found in the Sdn world there and just the management and control layer well let's save another cube conversation to talk about those security antidotes well but this is Peterborough's we've been talking to Alastair Johnson who's a principal architect at nuage networks about the potential for SD when to increase the relevance of MSPs telecom providers in a marketplace that is being dominated by the cloud experience and how greater automation leads to improve service opportunities for a lot of customers and a lot of cloud related service providers Alastair thanks very much for being on the cube thanks Peter and once again on Peter Burris and you've been watching another cube conversation until next time [Music] you

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, it's theCUBE's live coverage, day three of three days of coverage here at KubeCon 2018, and CloudNativeCon put on by the Linux Foundation and CNCF. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE with Stu Miniman, breaking down all the action. Our next guest is Hussein Khazaal, who's the Vice President of Marketing and Partners of Nuage Networks. Thanks for coming on, good to see you! >> Thanks, John, good to see you. >> Love that shirt, automation... >> Yeah. >> That's the theme. >> That is! (chuckles) >> Cloud native, cloud operations, thanks for coming on. So take a minute just to talk about what you guys are doing with the show, what's the key value proposition you guys are part of, what conversations you're having. >> Right so, for Nuage we basically deliver a software-based virtual networking solution. And a lot of our customers appreciate the value it brings because they have multi cloud environments, they have workloads in on-prem. Those are mixed, some VM, some bare metal, some containers, they have workloads in public cloud, and what we enable them with our software is to stitch all that together using an API-driven networking model that has policy applied to the workload, and you have that mixed workload environment with network policy and security built into that platform. And that's kind of where we help not really break what Kubernetes brings to developers, but maintain that, giving the IT and infrastructure folks the ability to have visibility control and maintain that. >> We were just talking with a partner from Google, we always talk to the same companies, so some of the senior people at AWS, and all the clouds. Obviously cloud operations is what everyone wants, that's the preferred environment, whether you're on-premises or in the cloud, Edge is now on the horizon. Storage, networking and compute is still the core, it's just a little bit different. But there's new jobs that are emerging around Kubernetes, you see the job board, but it's also revitalizing older roles, the network guy, the storage guy, the server guy, traditional IT enterprises are seeing those roles transform. So I got to ask you, as you guys are in the middle of all the networking side, how do see that person, that role, that piece of the puzzle in an IT enterprise change with Kubernetes? >> Absolutely, I mean, the one thing that we had some of our customers do is that these roles are no longer defined by a specific, you have to have these mixed skills, you have to understand what the developer needs as an infrastructure person, and the developer needs what kind of tools that they need to implement so you can do your job, and that's why Kubernetes, and when you're talking about networking and security, you have to understand Linux, you have to understand programming, to be able to give the developers the tools that they need to develop and understand the requirements and then by the same token, they need to make sure that from an intercom perspective, you need to understand, you still need the visibility, you still need control, right? And that balance can only be achieved if you kind of do the exchange roles, right? You get to work with the developers, and then the developers need to look at infrastructure and that's kind of where you stick at Kubernetes, and with what Red Hat is doing with OpenShift, and a lot of the vendors in terms of integrating with CNI, to be able to plug in and tap in and be able to deliver that security and that relief. >> I get what you're saying. I think you've got a great thread there that I want to pull on a little bit. So, I think back at networking over the last few decades, we used to call it multi-vendor, now we call it multi-cloud, we've been talking about automation forever, but it's different now. So, I think that thread you were going on is part of that answer, but explain why now, multi cloud and automation, what's that's real about that compared to what we were talking about the dominant, hardware-led environment that we lived in for decades? >> Absolutely, I mean just you look at how people develop, look at containers, the lifetime of a container is very short compared to like a monolithic application, things that are more dynamic. Some enterprises need to scale up operations, and then that's where they kind of... So early on it was more like a developer testing things in their lab and when you go into production and the rate and the scale at which you operate, dictates that, you know, look, I need to work in public cloud, I need to work with bare metal, and then that, the amount of the infrastructure guys meet that demand otherwise those enterprises are not going to be able to serve their end customers. And that's why they're kind of working with us, and even the community's coming together to address these, and we're looking with-- for performance with the vendors and then even for networking and that's what's driving that. >> Yeah, I want to get your reaction, I was talking to somebody here at the show and they said "Kubernetes is a reset for SDN." >> Yep, it is! I mean the thing is, Kubernetes as it is is perfect, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel, right? There's a lot of adaption from developers' infrastructure. What we're trying to do is build around it, you'll see orchestration on top, you'll see networking, this is such a good thing that everybody is, and you can see by the level of attendance, the level of interest, and engagement, now what we're trying to do is like grow the operation. What are the problems that are left for an enterprise to solve? And that's the multi-cloud piece, right? How do you do policy, network and security policy in that hybrid environment, right? For example, you look at a retailer, they have users using mobile apps, they have remote stores, they have data centers, they have public cloud, and then they're using containers (mumbles) how do you stitch all that together? And that's for us, the challenge that we're addressing. >> And Kubernetes gives you a lot of policy knobs, how are you guys seeing that opportunity? 'Cause that's where people see that kind of piece. >> The three letters, API, right? This API makes integration such an easy thing to do. And then we have obviously, using a CNI plug-in from a (mumbles) perspective, to be able to work in that eco-system and deliver what we do. We have, obviously you guys know that in OpenStack, they're running Kubernetes inside OpenStack and then you have people running Kubernetes on bare metal, right? But it's still Kubernetes and that's how we're able to serve our customers to kind of stitch between between those different stories. >> Alright, Hussein, let's talk about security. So, you know, when containers first came out it was all this argument of how do I architect it? Do I have to shove the thing in a VM, or now is it a micro VM? How do I make sure I ensure security? What's working well? What do we still have a lot of work to do in the security space? >> I think if you look at the three areas: visibility, protection and then the third one is dynamic further response, right? So you can't protect what you can't see and visibility is kind of the first thing that we as networking, because we move packets around, can deliver to the enterprise. The second one is isolation, is that everything you have in a pod is contained. Now between pods, if you're running in public cloud, as a bank, you may want to encrypt that traffic, right? You need to do some level of protection, whether that's in-flight protection or separation between them. The third one is, as you're moving things around and you see bad things happen, you need to not wait for a person, because you're looking at scale, like thousands of these instances that are moving around. The network is intelligent enough to act based on rules that you give it to, like if there's a threat, we'll just quarantine the source or remove traffic. This combination is what's missing and that's kind of what a lot of... >> I think that's an opportunity that's clear, but most people look at networking and say "oh, let's move it from A to B, point A to point B." It's now so much more than that, it's more headroom. What is the specific headroom on top of that? Because there's a lot of security opportunities, things are moving around, you can see the bad guys and all kinds of different threats, but not just moving packets, it's other things. What's the other key things that people should pay attention to when really designing these architectures? >> So the one thing, obviously, when you're doing things in a lab, you're not really going by scale. You're not looking at throughput, latency, things like that that's part of networking and that's kind of the work we're doing with some of the, like Mellanox, you know? On terms of providing high-throughput, providing low latency for specific applications. The other one is, how do you provide that intelligence? Like all this data has to go somewhere to be processed, to work with other security solutions. Those are the two things that maybe people don't give that much thought early on, but as you scale your operations, they become real bottlenecks for you. >> So I want to get a chance for you to get a plug in for the company, DevOps. This infrastructure, this code has kind of been kicking around since the beginning. It's actually happening, a programmable infrastructure. You know, at the app layer for coding, but now network's programmable. What are you guys doing in that area? How are you guys extending that value proposition to your customers? Why are they going with you guys? Why are you guys winning? What's the one thing that people should know about in order to come to you guys? >> Flexibility and openness, that's the key one. We are hardware agnostic, any switch, any network, any hypervisor, any CMS, content management system, that's our focus is our networking and security. Similar to Kubernertes, you can run Kubernetes anywhere. That's how we provide networking and we have an open eco-system that gives you scale, performance and security without really limiting your options. And the thing is, we have all, going forward, like people can do stuff on premises today, they may move to cloud, we don't lock you in to one architecture. The architecture's fluid and it could be whatever. You may see the future one way today, but in a couple of months as we all know, things change. >> Why would someone call you guys up? What's the paying point? What's the value? When will they know, oh okay I've got to get Nuage involved? >> Scale, multi-cloud, that's basically it. If you're looking for multi-cloud, multiple workloads and you're running things at scale, you need to talk to us because that's basically where we help you solve it. >> Hussein, talk a little bit about how Edge fits into it too. You know when you think back to even before cloud, think back to the XSPs. Networking securities have always been the choke point, physics still rules the day. We know it's only getting more complicated with Edge, more surface area for security, but I have to imagine that applies into what you're doing. >> Absolutely, I mean we've done, so as you decompose these things and you move them apart, your attack services increase, right? So the security is, as you move, those communication channels have to be protected somehow. We have an extension which is basically part of getting into the Edge, adding more intelligence at the Edge, because that traffic is coming from the Edge to the core, it goes to public cloud. And being able, as a networking solution, to steer that traffic securely using encryption or whatever have you in terms of visibility, provides those enterprises with a secure, sound platform to really do their business. >> What's your take on the show? 8,000 people up from 4,000. We were comparing it earlier to Adobe's Reinvent. A rising tide, is it a tsunami? >> Absolutely, I mean I couldn't believe the number when they said it because obviously we saw they'd sold out the tickets, but coming here to see all that many people and there have been earlier shows and the growth is tremendous. >> Well thanks for coming for coming on and sharing your insight and congratulations on the scale, we love it. Data, scale, programmable networks, it's all part of the new evolution of cloud native. It's on premises, it's in the cloud, multiple workloads, multiple clouds. This is the choice everyone has, they're rebuilding. Don't forget networking compute and storage, it's still a Holy Trinity there. Congratulations, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much. >> More live coverage here at theCUBE, here in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, day three of three days of coverage, this is theCUBE, we'll be right back after this short break. (upbeat music)

live from Vancouver Canada it's the cube OpenStack summit North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat the OpenStack foundation and its ecosystem partners welcome back I'm Stu minimun here at the OpenStack summit 2018 in Vancouver with my co-host John Troyer happy to welcome to the program a first-time guest Charles Ferlin who's the vice president of business development at nuage networks thanks for joining us thank you for having me all right so the OpenStack show we're always talking about the maturity of it where customers are going with it you're in business development so what one of the one of the things we were discussing from the keynote this morning is the telcos and the service providers and who's doing what and you know who makes up that environment so it gives us your free point what you're seeing as to you know where some of the real action is in this in this marketplace fair enough we've been talking about nav for example for many years as you know but I would say probably since the second half of 2016 that we've started to see some significant large deployment and the service provider service provider paying attention to building up a telco cloud to host their VN nav applications right so so really from the second half of 26 16 2017 we've seen massive deployments of OpenStack with a service provider and a lot of them to host applications to serve their branch office customers yeah that's that's an another motivation for them to deploy this yes so Charles you know we've talked to the 18 t Verizon you know Deutsche Telekom's up there all these big ones but I look at it and say is this an opportunity of 20 global you know you know you know telcos or is do we go down to some of the MSP CSPs however you want to call those service providers a regional one you know they're some of the regional ones that maybe aren't as much telcos or are they where's that line what do you see is kind of the TAM if you will for this space obviously the large service provider will have a piece there but we see a lot of regional customer consuming services from a local provider right they do have either for language reasons for regulation and in governance so we see a lot of them consuming services from a local service provider so an openstack sort of became the building block of these and if the infrastructure for the service provider yeah it's interesting we actually just had a infrastructure as a service company from Australia okay on and I said you know you look at their website it doesn't say OpenStack anywhere they provide cloud offerings so it's one of the things there's all these telcos and service fighters that use it but it's not like they're like we're your preferred distribution of OpenStack it's just part of the plumbing underneath the use cases that that are address buh-bye OpenStack and served by OpenStack really fits well and a lot of the telco space right now yeah so we've seen a lot of growth for virtual private cloud we see a lot of growth for a dynamically deploying application having application residing in the data center or moving closer to the users at the edge for example and these are sort of the use cases that nuage and OpenStack address pretty well well that's an interesting pivot point right I understand as an enterprise technologist why software-defined networking is important right it's important in your stack it's got to be important inside of an open OpenStack but can you talk a little bit about some of these use cases like I hadn't really thought about SD win and how that that really and what architectures and deployments would really kind of mean that they would need to deploy that with some and that's a good point because really NT as the win served as the catalyst for the service providers who start paying attention to deploying an NFV infrastructure before that there was an interest it was a motivation however SD wins be offered of dynamic flexible agile branch office connectivity that allows them to dynamically insert value-added services so yes as the one provided connectivity between the branch office but really where is the service provider are going after is offering Application Firewall DDoS services or URL filtering in all of these applications residing in the data center and all of a sudden as I hold on I cannot have it as the one solution disjoint from my data center OpenStack deployment and this is where the nuage actually served as a connecting to both environment but also this is what served as a catalyst the sd1 deployment sort of a catalyst for for them to start deploying a dynamic infrastructure in today's yes so Charles just on the SD way in piece itself we've seen a lot of activity that bunch of acquisitions in that market what what differentiates nuage in in this space well fair enough we've seen these acquisition as a complement to the strategy that we have taken over the past five years paying off we are from the get-go started to have an end-to-end as the in solution so it's not just about connecting branch office together it's not about just connecting application in the data center it's actually connecting the users in the branch office with the applications in the data center or in the public cloud and what differentiate us the most is that we have the exact same platform the same as the n solution and 2n to connect branch office programming branch routers or programming virtual switches in the data center or bare metal physical service so that is perhaps new our single most biggest differentiator is the capability to have that single policy that singled as the n framework from the users and branch to the data center or public cloud alright you've mentioned bare metal I remember it was funny when the project came out for bare metal of course it's called ironic because most people can't win OpenStack started it was it's a good name in that it was virtualized environment of course today we've got containers starting to go up the stack with kubernetes so we understand why bare metals there what are you seeing in that space and and what what kind of what do you hear from your customers so we we have a lot of traction with ironic actually it's ironic but we do and we did that actually in open Saxony in November we did a Coe presentation with Fujitsu who deployed our k5 infrastructure using nagy networks and ironic integration to roll out on top of that is flexible you can put a platform as a service they can do whatever they want on top of it but the bare amount of provisioning is somewhere we is a we have a couple of large accounts that they have deployed this globally yeah okay are you working with the cotta containers that they have here and whether you are not would love to hear kind of the security story when we talk things everything for bare metal in containers and what you're doing with OpenStack and that's that's perhaps the other the biggest differentiator we have is because we're able to have the single networking policies from a container to or programming the network of a container or a KVM VM or hyper-v or the we have the symbol their single as the end platform and we're able we see all the therefore we see all the traffic in the data pack and we're able to index this into a elasticsearch database right and and in creating an index and set a lot of users to create some thresholds and that is what is perhaps the newest thing at knowledge is the capability now to say hey once those thresholds or cross why don't we reprogram the network dynamically so near realtor in real near-real-time we're actually able to take an action to reprogram the network based on some live feed that's what can information that we're receiving from the the various element that we have program either in the branch office or in a container level okay so today cotta containers is not something you're involved with or I didn't quite that cotta containers from the new high-level project from the the OpenStack foundation I don't know right now but but your customers are using container technology docker and various others we have an integration with kubernetes so we provide CNI they're absolutely involved there and this is how a lot of our customers are using us right now and the customers we're talking about these would often be service providers is that is that correct in the context of containers and kubernetes it would mainly be on the enterprise okay out of an agile type of development where they want to have a there's a lot of developer and they want to have the networking program and the same life cycle as the application project is rolling out and having the micro segmentation meaning that we are able to isolate each one of the project from one another so in if one gets contaminated the other one doesn't and so this is where a lot of the kubernetes and deployment has been on the on the large enterprise okay that makes sense because I'm trying to as a as a person outside the telecom industry but but following kind of the enterprise and OpenStack it's interesting to see this vision of the service providers who are not dumb pipes certainly but through OpenStack and these these the nfe and the services they are able to provision with folks like nuage you know able to provide services so just trying to figure out where the line you know maybe you could draw us a picture of you know what what the modern service provider will be able to provide versus what's still left then for the at the enterprise level depending on which market size analysis analyst you're looking at you know is depends VPN connectivity will be it it varies between two to six to eight to twelve it's a relatively contained small market compared to the applicator to manage applications right manage security that's tenfold that that market race so really as you said the the objective here if the service provider is not to to become a dumb virtual pipe and the ability to dynamically insert some value-added services over the top and this is what having an agile as the when now gives them the capability to say hold on a second I can now start serving a value-added application because my dynamic network is available now and this is this is what is fueling a lot of the OpenStack deployment right now in the datacenter yeah Charles one of discussions we've been looking at the last couple of years is there's OpenStack and then there's containers and kubernetes everything how do you see those go together what are you hearing from customers general discussion here but I'd love to hear some real-world so yeah in the context of ironic as we just mentioned a lot of the time the bare metal servers are actually deployed using OpenStack and what goes on top of it is actually kubernetes right and this is very common and it gives that isolation or its deploying a virtual machine running a pass platform in there right so so actually we do see the OpenStack to be used often to deploy the the infrastructure and program and provision I should say the infrastructure and whatever goes on top it could be kubernetes and work just a very nicely Charles you've been involved with OpenStack for many years I had this is how many OpenStack summits well probably eight and a weight or more yeah how are you seeing the OpenStack community evolved what do you I know you've just arrived which day one here at this summit you know beautiful Vancouver but in terms of the energy of the community the the people who are here it's a little bit smaller this year but it you know we've got people here are actual users and actual deployers so exactly yeah thoughts there so this is perhaps the well we went through a marketing height which is great however what I would say regardless of the event today in general the OpenStack community is a lot more mature it's a lot more stable as well and in the product and the product the technology at the community is more focused around solving real use cases and real problem couple years ago there was a lot of interest a lot of hype you know but it would have solve world world hunger as well right now I think it's very pointed very precise and I'm actually new I was quite proud to be participating in contributing in that community because we're starting to see the technology really addressing key key problems here all right Charles last thing I wanted to ask is the network sits in a very special place when you talk about really the multi cloud world that customers are talking about what are you seeing when it comes to that environment you know how do customers figure out where they put their applications are they moving you know things or is it just kind of a heterogeneous but still complicated world they're still figuring out that's right I mean that it's a very dynamic environment but I would say if I had to draw a conclusion most of the customers are deploying the application on-premise they like to have either for storage either for some of the governance they do I like to have applications on-premise however the multi cloud scenario is often used in large banks to compute or a large organization to compute on a burst capability right the capability to say hey I need to have X compute power available for X time is very appealing for them and this is how most of the deployment of nuage are used right now is having doing the plumbing the virtual plumbing inside a data center and dynamically based on demand the capability to do the same networking policy the same networking extension to one of the public cloud offering is very appealing because it sporadic it's a burst type of scenario yeah especially a lot of those service providers have that direct ability right as well correct correct and it you're right that it can become a little bit complex when you have when you want to to deploy nets with the same that's working policies across on-premise and multiple cloud provider and if you have interim service provider then it becomes a little bit complicated to have to orchestrate all of it and this is where Sdn gives them that hardware abstraction and and maintain the same networking policy well Charles Berlin appreciate the update on nuage and all of your viewpoints from from the customers that you're seeing my pleasure very very much for John Troyer I'm Stu Mittleman back with more coverage here at the open sex I'm at 2018 in Vancouver thanks for watching the Q [Music]

(upbeat digital music) >> Hi, I'm Peter Burris, and welcome to another, theCUBE Conversation. This week, we're in our Palo Alto studios, with Saurabh Sandhir. Saurabh is the Vice President of Product Management at Nuage Networks, which is a Nokia company. >> That's right. >> Saurabh, thank you very much for being here today. >> Thank you, Peter. Happy to be here. >> So, tell us a little bit about Let's start off. Tell us a little bit about Nuage Network. It's a new company out of a big company. What's the focus, how is Nokia helping? >> So, Nuage, well, while it's new but it's not quite new, we have been in the market for four years, and the way Nuage started was it was part of Alcatel-Lucent earlier, and now a part of Nokia, we are really the SDN BU or the SDN arm of Nokia. What we are focused on from the beginning is building a platform for secure, automated, connectivity for out data centers as well as WAN. And we have built that platform and successfully introduced it in many enterprises and service providers. So the unique aspect of Nuage is while in terms of innovation, while in terms of global market, we work as a start-up. While we have the service and support that's offered by Nokia as a mother ship so I have the unique, best in both worlds combination of a start-up as well as a large company. >> Nokia is still regarded as one of the finest brands in enterprise networking in the world. So, you said SD-WAN, software defined, wide area networking. >> Correct. It's a term that a lot of people have heard something about, but what are some of the high level benefits, number one, and then number two, why right now? >> Right. If you look at how enterprise connectivity services were offered down the ages, it was, you had to get some kind of a VPN access, whether it was an MPLS or a VPLS access, you got a dedicated leased line, you got a specific device, and that's how you would connect your enterprise branches to the network, and to each other. And SD-WAN, what it does, is it changes that paradigm. It provides secure automated connectivity in line with cloud principles for enterprises across the board. And in terms of why now, I think it is the combination of factors that arise from how the modern enterprise is evolving, and how there is a need to deliver, not just connectivity, but IT services over IP, whether it is access to the public cloud, whether it is access to SAS applications like Office 365, or Skype, or whether it is the fact that you want, not just pure connectivity, but you want application aware connectivity. All those trends coming together have created the demand, and the need for SD-WAN. >> So, you mentioned the cloud principles, and that has been a dominant feature of the industry. We call it the cloud experience, and the cloud experience is typically associated with abstracting and virtualizing hardware. So, in many respects what we're talking about is bringing that same class of technology to the wide area network, the circuits, the access points, everything else, by having a software defined experience that allows the business to rapidly re-configure, based on what its needs, against the access to the underlying WAN network that it has. Have I got that right? >> Absolutely correct. What SDN-WAN basically does is, if you look at a traditional branch router, it has access to a particular type of network, MPLS or VPLS, it has a data plane, it has a control plane, as the management plane by which you configure it. What SD-WAN does is takes those control and management planes, puts it in the cloud, takes the data plane and sort of makes it agnostic to the access technology. So, you run the data service, irrespective of whether you are on internet, whether you are on LTE, whether you are on MPLS, and using those principles of centralized control, centralized management, standardized x86 based devices offering CP services, and voila, you get SD-WAN. That's exactly correct. >> So, I can see what the advantages to an enterprise are-- >> Yep. >> I can reconfigure my business faster-- >> Yep >> Especially business that's more digital in nature. But, is this going to be something that the service providers are going to embrace? >> Absolutely, absolutely. While the enterprise, and the reason for services providers to embrace this, is, for the existing customer this offers an up sale opportunity, for the people who are already on their VPN services, this is an opportunity to broaden the scope from just pure connectivity, this is an opportunity for them to access customers who were, where the cost to serve was to high. Where they just could not go because they were outside of their geographic reach, or outside of their existing business modeling or business plan. >> Or, for example, you might be a mid-size business that required a more expensive circuit, or maybe not quite a more expensive circuit. The cost of setting the circuit up, servicing that customer, et cetera, might have been to great. >> Absolutely, and that's what SD-WAN sort of provides, a level playing field. In some ways, what it does, is it delinks the service, which is the VPN service from the transport, and the transport can be Internet, can be MPLS, and there you have the benefits for the service provider, for the enterprise, in terms of agility, in terms of time to service, in terms of overall cost. >> But, that's inside the nature of telecommunications oriented services. Is SD-WAN going to make it easier for service providers to perhaps start moving into more value added, data oriented services, above just the traditional communication services? >> That is the holy grail. That is really where the service providers are going and that's where enterprises want them to go, and the reason for that is, today, when you look at what an enterprise branch, or an enterprise office needs to operate, there is connectivity, but, then also there is security services, be it firewall, intrusion detection system, intrusion protection system, URL filtering, anti-virus. Take it with on top of that, there is transport optimization, WAN optimization services. There is emergence of IoT, there are wi-fi controllers. All of these services to the enterprise are being offered as a stand alone appliance, virtual or physical, and there is no centralized control. They are extremely rigid, and all of these providers lock-in. What SD-WAN does is, from a tel-co or service provider perspective, is, it also offers a platform to provide all of these services on top of SD-WAN. So, the benefit, it's a symbiotic relationship in the sense that benefits are both towards the enterprise, because they get these services and the service agility. There is resource optimization, source utilization, and cost, and from a tele-co perspective, the ability to sell beyond connectivity. That's one. >> So, if I'm your counter part at a service provider, I can now think in terms bringing up new service, with cheaper connection, lower cost, lower risk, bringing the customer on board, onboarding. At least, if not better, security, et cetera, because, I'm now using software defined approach to making all those connections, and, also, managing the service itself. >> That is correct. What it allows me to do is, in that role, is to provide on demand programmable services. So, for example, a firewall, as an enterprise I can go to a service provider portal and select which of my sites need, which of my branch sites need, firewall at what point in time. What kind of resources I want to assign to that firewall, and voila, on demand, I have it in place. And from a service provider's perspective, it's additional revenue, it's additional services. >> It's a software defined firewall, and it's much more automated, and much better organized, because it brings all the possibilities of software defined automation, which might include some machine learning, pattern recognition, et cetera, to bear on the wide area network world. >> That's correct, that's correct. >> Alright, so, we've talked a bit about security itself. What are, can you just give us one or two clear differences in how the old world handled security, and the software defined world's going to to handle security in the WAN regime. >> Right, so, the thing with security is, the security paradigm has changed massively. In the old world, which wasn't that old-- >> Peter: It's still here in many respects. >> Still here, absolutely, still here. The security was all about east west, sorry, north south protection, which means that you are protecting towards threats and traffic coming inside and going outside of data center or your branch office, but what has happened, is most of the threats today, most of the attacks today, are focused on east west traffic, which is traffic within branches, from one branch to the other, within the data center itself. That's one. The second aspect is there a multi-cloud aspect to the enterprise IT. You don't access application only on the branch itself. Your applications that run in a data center that's owned by you, private DC, you run application that in a public cloud, AWS Azure, you have access to applications that are offered as software as a service, be it Office 365, Skype, Salesforce, and so on, and that has fundamentally changed the threat surface, or the threat perimeter, that you have to deal with, and you have to now essentially deal with threats that are coming within this whole expanded branch, or enterprise, territory or perimeter. >> So, you're effectively by virtualizing all of these different elements, you're reducing the threat surface. >> Yeah, what we are doing with SD-WAN is a few things. First, and foremost, is the fact that, as you were talking about, these value added services, you can bring these up on demand. You can put a firewall at a particular branch location, for say, guest wi-fi traffic. You can be specific. >> On this point, you can bring a new service up and not have it immediately associated with a whole bunch of capital expense. >> Exactly, exactly. On demand programmable, right, that's one. The second thing is the aspect of PAN network visibility. You also have the ability to see what exactly is going on in your network, the network that's spread across the branch office, a private data center, a public cloud site, and you have full visibility and insight into who's talking to whom, and at what time. >> Peter: At scale. >> At scale. >> Very very big and very small and we know that there's a whole bunch of mid-size companies that can't afford a NOC type of capability, but, now through >> Yep SD-WAN they get some of the same benefits that the big guys get. >> Absolutely, and the threat aspect here is, using this information, you have closed loop automation, or machine learning, where, as opposed to saying all of my traffic has to go through this possible intrusion detection function, because, once in six months I might have a attack, versus, I see abnormal traffic pattern, and the system automatically optimizes that particular traffic flow to go through this particular function, and that allows it to be much more scalable, that allows for much more on demand, in terms of how we perceive security. not just as a lock that needs to remain on a door at all possible points in time, but, a function that can be instantiated when you need it. >> But, I also got to believe, and test me, I'm going to test you, you tell me if I'm right on this, that the historical conversation between a service provider and an enterprise, centered on the characteristics of the circuits that were being provided. And those circuits were often very much grounded in hardware, associated with the specific links, et cetera. And if you ended up with a security problem, you're now having a whole bunch of haggling and a very complex set of interactions. The minute you bring SD-WAN in on that, now you're talking about being able to use software in a software response, not necessarily a hardware response, to being actually able to identify, mediate, contain, et cetera, security threats on the WAN. Have I got that right? >> Correct, correct. Earlier, the conversation was really in terms of providing a circuit, providing connectivity, and what you were doing was, you were providing this connectivity over some kind of a private IP. That's where you were as a service provider, that's what the service you were offering. Now, you expand that same paradigm with security, with access to cloud, to really offer IT services on top of the IP layer, and that's the fundamental difference, that's the change. >> That break apart between the service and the transport. >> Absolutely. >> So, I kind of said the old way, and you corrected me, and said, wait a minute, this is really the way we're, SD-WAN is trying to make changes, trying to affect a new way of thinking. But there is another technology on the horizon here that actually could really accelerate this process, and that's 5G. >> Mm-hmm >> We're not going to go to far out here, but, tell us what some of the near term, how 5G and SD-WAN are likely to co-evolve, if you will. >> Right, right. They're two sides of the same coin if you ask me, and the reason is, while 5G, as with all the mobile technologies in the past, as we went from 2G, to 3G, to 4G is about speeds and feeds, and absolutely, we'll have more band width, low latency, sure, but what 5G is also about is access to applications from, that is in the cloud, or reside whether closer to the users. And in that sense, what 5G stands out to do, or sets to do, is create network slices, and provide access for applications such as, self-driving cars, such as remote surgery. All of these applications, not just need speeds and feeds, but, require dedicated access all the way from the user, onto an application that runs in the data center. And if you look at that paradigm, how SD-WAN plays in this is by providing a programmable network, on demand services, by providing on demand resource allocation. If you take SD-WAN, if you take 5G, then SD-WAN becomes a component of 5G, because if you are a user, say, conducting remote surgery, and you need access to an application that's in the data center, SD-WAN allows you to provide that overlay network, on top of existing services, and there is a certain quality of service, with a guaranteed access, that is critical to 5G. >> But, as you said, it's a fact that 5G's going to promise such greater device density-- >> Right. >> Within a network-- >> Yes. >> And in many respects, you're going to need SD-WAN to honestly take advantage of the benefits that 5G is going to provide. You may not need 5G to take advantage >> Yup, right. of the SD-WAN benefits, but, you're going to need SD-WAN if you're going to to take advantage of 5G. >> Right. >> So, that kind of suggests, that the companies that start, the service providers, and the enterprises that start, early on this SD-WAN thing, are likely to be in the best position to reap the full benefits of 5G when it shows up. Have I got that right? >> I absolutely believe so, because at the end the day, 5G is all about application-aware networking, right. A remote surgery application versus me trying to access Facebook cannot be treated the same way, and that's where SD-WAN comes in. And especially if you combine SD-WAN with some other technologies that are coming out of a company such as Nokia, then you have a end-to-end traffic engineered path that is been created all the way from the user on to the backend data center that enables all these applications-- >> Coming back to the point about security, there is one group that hopes you treat your Facebook and your surgery data the same way, and that's the bad guys. >> Absolutely, and that's what we need to protect against. >> This is a fascinating subject, and it's going to be a lot of discussion and change over the course of the next few years, as multiple of these technologies co-evolve, but, it's pretty clear that SD-WAN has potential to further accelerate many of the changes that we're seeing in enterprises today as they try to become more digital in nature. >> Sure, SD-WAN is the future and it's here and now. >> Excellent. Once again, Sandhir, I'm sorry. Once again, So, you can cut this, I blew it. Sorry, Chuck. (laughing) Once again, Saurabh Sandhir, VP Product Management, Nuage Networks, an Nokia company, thanks for joining us here in this Cube Conversation. >> Thanks, Peter Thanks for your time. (upbeat digital music)

(upbeat digital music) >> Hi, I'm Peter Burris, and welcome to another, theCUBE Conversation. This week, we're in our Palo Alto studios, with Saurabh Sandhir. Saurabh is the Vice President of Product Management at Nuage Networks, which is a Nokia company. >> That's right. >> Saurabh, thank you very much for being here today. >> Thank you, Peter. Happy to be here. >> So, tell us a little bit about Let's start off. Tell us a little bit about Nuage Network. It's a new company out of a big company. What's the focus, how is Nokia helping? >> So, Nuage, well, while it's new but it's not quite new, we have been in the market for four years, and the way Nuage started was it was part of Alcatel-Lucent earlier, and now a part of Nokia, we are really the SDN BU or the SDN arm of Nokia. What we are focused on from the beginning is building a platform for secure, automated, connectivity for out data centers as well as WAN. And we have built that platform and successfully introduced it in many enterprises and service providers. So the unique aspect of Nuage is while in terms of innovation, while in terms of global market, we work as a start-up. While we have the service and support that's offered by Nokia as a mother ship so I have the unique, best in both worlds combination of a start-up as well as a large company. >> Nokia is still regarded as one of the finest brands in enterprise networking in the world. So, you said SD-WAN, software defined, wide area networking. >> Correct. It's a term that a lot of people have heard something about, but what are some of the high level benefits, number one, and then number two, why right now? >> Right. If you look at how enterprise connectivity services were offered down the ages, it was, you had to get some kind of a VPN access, whether it was an MPLS or a VPLS access, you got a dedicated leased line, you got a specific device, and that's how you would connect your enterprise branches to the network, and to each other. And SD-WAN, what it does, is it changes that paradigm. It provides secure automated connectivity in line with cloud principles for enterprises across the board. And in terms of why now, I think it is the combination of factors that arise from how the modern enterprise is evolving, and how there is a need to deliver, not just connectivity, but IT services over IP, whether it is access to the public cloud, whether it is access to SAS applications like Office 365, or Skype, or whether it is the fact that you want, not just pure connectivity, but you want application aware connectivity. All those trends coming together have created the demand, and the need for SD-WAN. >> So, you mentioned the cloud principles, and that has been a dominant feature of the industry. We call it the cloud experience, and the cloud experience is typically associated with abstracting and virtualizing hardware. So, in many respects what we're talking about is bringing that same class of technology to the wide area network, the circuits, the access points, everything else, by having a software defined experience that allows the business to rapidly re-configure, based on what its needs, against the access to the underlying WAN network that it has. Have I got that right? >> Absolutely correct. What SDN-WAN basically does is, if you look at a traditional branch router, it has access to a particular type of network, MPLS or VPLS, it has a data plane, it has a control plane, as the management plane by which you configure it. What SD-WAN does is takes those control and management planes, puts it in the cloud, takes the data plane and sort of makes it agnostic to the access technology. So, you run the data service, irrespective of whether you are on internet, whether you are on LTE, whether you are on MPLS, and using those principles of centralized control, centralized management, standardized x86 based devices offering CP services, and voila, you get SD-WAN. That's exactly correct. >> So, I can see what the advantages to an enterprise are-- >> Yep. >> I can reconfigure my business faster-- >> Yep >> Especially business that's more digital in nature. But, is this going to be something that the service providers are going to embrace? >> Absolutely, absolutely. While the enterprise, and the reason for services providers to embrace this, is, for the existing customer this offers an up sale opportunity, for the people who are already on their VPN services, this is an opportunity to broaden the scope from just pure connectivity, this is an opportunity for them to access customers who were, where the cost to serve was to high. Where they just could not go because they were outside of their geographic reach, or outside of their existing business modeling or business plan. >> Or, for example, you might be a mid-size business that required a more expensive circuit, or maybe not quite a more expensive circuit. The cost of setting the circuit up, servicing that customer, et cetera, might have been to great. >> Absolutely, and that's what SD-WAN sort of provides, a level playing field. In some ways, what it does, is it delinks the service, which is the VPN service from the transport, and the transport can be Internet, can be MPLS, and there you have the benefits for the service provider, for the enterprise, in terms of agility, in terms of time to service, in terms of overall cost. >> But, that's inside the nature of telecommunications oriented services. Is SD-WAN going to make it easier for service providers to perhaps start moving into more value added, data oriented services, above just the traditional communication services? >> That is the holy grail. That is really where the service providers are going and that's where enterprises want them to go, and the reason for that is, today, when you look at what an enterprise branch, or an enterprise office needs to operate, there is connectivity, but, then also there is security services, be it firewall, intrusion detection system, intrusion protection system, URL filtering, anti-virus. Take it with on top of that, there is transport optimization, WAN optimization services. There is emergence of IoT, there are wi-fi controllers. All of these services to the enterprise are being offered as a stand alone appliance, virtual or physical, and there is no centralized control. They are extremely rigid, and all of these providers lock-in. What SD-WAN does is, from a tel-co or service provider perspective, is, it also offers a platform to provide all of these services on top of SD-WAN. So, the benefit, it's a symbiotic relationship in the sense that benefits are both towards the enterprise, because they get these services and the service agility. There is resource optimization, source utilization, and cost, and from a tele-co perspective, the ability to sell beyond connectivity. That's one. >> So, if I'm your counter part at a service provider, I can now think in terms bringing up new service, with cheaper connection, lower cost, lower risk, bringing the customer on board, onboarding. At least, if not better, security, et cetera, because, I'm now using software defined approach to making all those connections, and, also, managing the service itself. >> That is correct. What it allows me to do is, in that role, is to provide on demand programmable services. So, for example, a firewall, as an enterprise I can go to a service provider portal and select which of my sites need, which of my branch sites need, firewall at what point in time. What kind of resources I want to assign to that firewall, and voila, on demand, I have it in place. And from a service provider's perspective, it's additional revenue, it's additional services. >> It's a software defined firewall, and it's much more automated, and much better organized, because it brings all the possibilities of software defined automation, which might include some machine learning, pattern recognition, et cetera, to bear on the wide area network world. >> That's correct, that's correct. >> Alright, so, we've talked a bit about security itself. What are, can you just give us one or two clear differences in how the old world handled security, and the software defined world's going to to handle security in the WAN regime. >> Right, so, the thing with security is, the security paradigm has changed massively. In the old world, which wasn't that old-- >> [Peter] It's still here in many respects. >> Still here, absolutely, still here. The security was all about east west, sorry, north south protection, which means that you are protecting towards threats and traffic coming inside and going outside of data center or your branch office, but what has happened, is most of the threats today, most of the attacks today, are focused on east west traffic, which is traffic within branches, from one branch to the other, within the data center itself. That's one. The second aspect is there a multi-cloud aspect to the enterprise IT. You don't access application only on the branch itself. Your applications that run in a data center that's owned by you, private DC, you run application that in a public cloud, AWS Azure, you have access to applications that are offered as software as a service, be it Office 365, Skype, Salesforce, and so on, and that has fundamentally changed the threat surface, or the threat perimeter, that you have to deal with, and you have to now essentially deal with threats that are coming within this whole expanded branch, or enterprise, territory or perimeter. >> So, you're effectively by virtualizing all of these different elements, you're reducing the threat surface. >> Yeah, what we are doing with SD-WAN is a few things. First, and foremost, is the fact that, as you were talking about, these value added services, you can bring these up on demand. You can put a firewall at a particular branch location, for say, guest wi-fi traffic. You can be specific. >> On this point, you can bring a new service up and not have it immediately associated with a whole bunch of capital expense. >> Exactly, exactly. On demand programmable, right, that's one. The second thing is the aspect of PAN network visibility. You also have the ability to see what exactly is going on in your network, the network that's spread across the branch office, a private data center, a public cloud site, and you have full visibility and insight into who's talking to whom, and at what time. >> [Peter] At scale. >> At scale. >> Very very big and very small and we know that there's a whole bunch of mid-size companies that can't afford a NOC type of capability, but, now through >> Yep SD-WAN they get some of the same benefits that the big guys get. >> Absolutely, and the threat aspect here is, using this information, you have closed loop automation, or machine learning, where, as opposed to saying all of my traffic has to go through this possible intrusion detection function, because, once in six months I might have a attack, versus, I see abnormal traffic pattern, and the system automatically optimizes that particular traffic flow to go through this particular function, and that allows it to be much more scalable, that allows for much more on demand, in terms of how we perceive security. not just as a lock that needs to remain on a door at all possible points in time, but, a function that can be instantiated when you need it. >> But, I also got to believe, and test me, I'm going to test you, you tell me if I'm right on this, that the historical conversation between a service provider and an enterprise, centered on the characteristics of the circuits that were being provided. And those circuits were often very much grounded in hardware, associated with the specific links, et cetera. And if you ended up with a security problem, you're now having a whole bunch of haggling and a very complex set of interactions. The minute you bring SD-WAN in on that, now you're talking about being able to use software in a software response, not necessarily a hardware response, to being actually able to identify, mediate, contain, et cetera, security threats on the WAN. Have I got that right? >> Correct, correct. Earlier, the conversation was really in terms of providing a circuit, providing connectivity, and what you were doing was, you were providing this connectivity over some kind of a private IP. That's where you were as a service provider, that's what the service you were offering. Now, you expand that same paradigm with security, with access to cloud, to really offer IT services on top of the IP layer, and that's the fundamental difference, that's the change. >> That break apart between the service and the transport. >> Absolutely. >> So, I kind of said the old way, and you corrected me, and said, wait a minute, this is really the way we're, SD-WAN is trying to make changes, trying to affect a new way of thinking. But there is another technology on the horizon here that actually could really accelerate this process, and that's 5G. >> Mm-hmm >> We're not going to go to far out here, but, tell us what some of the near term, how 5G and SD-WAN are likely to co-evolve, if you will. >> Right, right. They're two sides of the same coin if you ask me, and the reason is, while 5G, as with all the mobile technologies in the past, as we went from 2G, to 3G, to 4G is about speeds and feeds, and absolutely, we'll have more band width, low latency, sure, but what 5G is also about is access to applications from, that is in the cloud, or reside whether closer to the users. And in that sense, what 5G stands out to do, or sets to do, is create network slices, and provide access for applications such as, self-driving cars, such as remote surgery. All of these applications, not just need speeds and feeds, but, require dedicated access all the way from the user, onto an application that runs in the data center. And if you look at that paradigm, how SD-WAN plays in this is by providing a programmable network, on demand services, by providing on demand resource allocation. If you take SD-WAN, if you take 5G, then SD-WAN becomes a component of 5G, because if you are a user, say, conducting remote surgery, and you need access to an application that's in the data center, SD-WAN allows you to provide that overlay network, on top of existing services, and there is a certain quality of service, with a guaranteed access, that is critical to 5G. >> But, as you said, it's a fact that 5G's going to promise such greater device density-- >> Right. >> Within a network-- >> Yes. >> And in many respects, you're going to need SD-WAN to honestly take advantage of the benefits that 5G is going to provide. You may not need 5G to take advantage >> Yup, right. of the SD-WAN benefits, but, you're going to need SD-WAN if you're going to to take advantage of 5G. >> Right. >> So, that kind of suggests, that the companies that start, the service providers, and the enterprises that start, early on this SD-WAN thing, are likely to be in the best position to reap the full benefits of 5G when it shows up. Have I got that right? >> I absolutely believe so, because at the end the day, 5G is all about application-aware networking, right. A remote surgery application versus me trying to access Facebook cannot be treated the same way, and that's where SD-WAN comes in. And especially if you combine SD-WAN with some other technologies that are coming out of a company such as Nokia, then you have a end-to-end traffic engineered path that is been created all the way from the user on to the backend data center that enables all these applications-- >> Coming back to the point about security, there is one group that hopes you treat your Facebook and your surgery data the same way, and that's the bad guys. >> Absolutely, and that's what we need to protect against. >> This is a fascinating subject, and it's going to be a lot of discussion and change over the course of the next few years, as multiple of these technologies co-evolve, but, it's pretty clear that SD-WAN has potential to further accelerate many of the changes that we're seeing in enterprises today as they try to become more digital in nature. >> Sure, SD-WAN is the future and it's here and now. >> Excellent. Once again, Sandhir, I'm sorry. Once again, So, you can cut this, I blew it. Sorry, Chuck. (laughing) Once again, Saurabh Sandhir, VP Product Management, Nuage Networks, an Nokia company, thanks for joining us here in this Cube Conversation. >> Thanks, Peter Thanks for your time. (upbeat digital music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto Studios for our CUBE Conversation, taking a little break from the shows as we get ready, actually, for the winter break which will be a nice little break for us and the crews and the gear. This is different, exciting. It's a little bit more intimate. We're really excited to have our next guest. He's Sunil Khandekar. He's the founder and CEO of Nuage Networks which is part of Nokia, a CUBE alumni. I think we last saw you at DockerCon 2016. >> That's right. >> Jeff: So, great to see you. >> Good to see you again. >> Absolutely, so, been a little more than a year. >> Sunil: That's right. >> So, what do you see as the evolution since we last spoke at DockerCon? >> Sure, it's been great. I couldn't be more pleased with the momentum that we have garnered in the industry: more adoption of our solution, more validation, more events, more customers. >> Jeff: (chuckling) >> Which is great, that's all good stuff. And really, more specifically, in terms of adoption, large service providers across the globe like BT, Telefonica, TELUS, Exponential-e, they're all adopted and launched with our SDN solution. We have had breakthrough wins in terms of public cloud whether it's Fujitsu or whether it's an NTD Data like China Mobile. And of course, you know we continue to have a solid momentum in financial services companies, for private cloud automation, as well as to provide them security software to find security in addition to the private cloud automation. And we had another breakthrough win in China Pacific Insurance Company. So, that continues, and of course it's great always to receive some good validation. So we've won award at MEF on the best SDN solution recently. We won the Right Stuff Award, Innovation Award at ONUG for software-defined security. And every leading analyst firm, Gartner, Forrester, IDC, IHS Markit, ACG, and recently Global Data, they've all put us in the top two as the inventors for doing automation of networking end-to-end. >> Right, because automation in networking was the last piece of kind of the virtualization stack, right, in the automation. So, what is it that you think that you guys are doing special that's allowing you to win? >> Right, so if you remember when we talked, when we started Nuage, we started Nuage to automate networking end-to-end with a software-based approach at the heart of which is a declarative policy and analytics engine. And what that means is we were doing intent-based networking before it was even a thing. >> Jeff: Right. >> And we were doing software-defined networking but in a way that allowed us to do software-defined networking not only in the data center, between the data centers to the public cloud across the wide area and to the enterprise branches. What that means is you're not providing a siloed automation, but we are doing automation end-to-end because ultimately it's about connecting users to the applications. >> Right, right, you had a great quote. I picked it up in doing some research. You know, the metaproblem is you said, "Connect users everywhere to applications everywhere," a really simple kind of statement of purpose but not very simple to execute. >> Sunil: You got it. >> A lot of complexity behind that statement. >> That's right, that's right, incredible amount of complexity, but it's important to construct the metaproblem, look at what it is that enterprises have pain with. They have, let's look at it, right? They have users everywhere, and they want to connect to applications anywhere whether it's private or public cloud. How do they want to do it? Quickly, securely, in a self-service manner, but they want this agility without sacrificing safety and security. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> So what you have is you've got to solve this network automation problem for brownfield or greenfield, because there is nothing like just greenfields. >> Right. >> And we are to do it in their private data centers. You've got to help them burst into the public cloud securely. And you've got to connect all their branch sites together. And what we've seen in the industry and our competitors, they are taking a very narrow view of the problem. So what they have is an automation for only the data centers and automation for just the wide area. And that's only solving half the problem. >> Right, right, and then you've got these pesky things that have just reestablished the expected behavior, the expected access, and oh, by the way, added significantly more attack surfaces and really changed the game in terms of what people want from their applications, what they expect from their applications. And it's tough for businesses to deliver to this level of promise. >> Indeed, and you know, the wall is about instant gratification. You want access to your data quickly, instantly wherever you are. >> Right. >> And what that means is, as consumers, we have everything at our fingertips. But as soon as you step into the business environment, that's completely not true. And so, it's all about consumerization of IT on how do you make IT that agile, how do you actually modernize IT. Because enterprises, their high-order problem is what? To innovate faster by having massive automation across all aspects of their business. What underpins that is a modern IT and cloud architecture. And what underpins modern IT and cloud architecture is three clear things that we are seeing in the industry: software-defined data centers, software-defined wide area network, and software-defined security. So, we like and our customers love that we've thought the problem end-to-end and provide all these three, which is absolutely unique in the industry. No one does this. >> So, I'm curious to get your perspective cause you've been doing this for awhile. >> Sunil: Yes. >> As the security landscape has changed. >> Sunil: That's right. >> Everyone is getting, we get reports every day, we're numb to it now. You know, basically everyone at Yahoo got hacked. >> Sunil: That's right. >> And Equifax got hacked, so everyone's getting hacked. So it's really not about the big wall anymore. There's no such thing as the big wall. >> Sunil: That's right. >> The wall's about crumbled. So it's evolving. We've also seen an increase in state-sponsored attacks as opposed to just kids having fun in the basement. >> Sunil: Yeah. >> How have you seen the evolution of the attacks change and how have you responded within your solutions over this period of time to kind of evolve to the modern security stance that you have to have? >> Look every CXO I meet, the absolute thing that's top of mind is how do you make us go from where we are, a traditional environment, to a higher edge automated environment but make it more secure than what we have. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> And as you noted, the attack surface has increased thanks to the mobility. And you have a lot more surface area because you have applications in public cloud, you have applications in private cloud, you have more mobile users. So, the industry term that often gets used is microsegmentation. Now, what that means is, and that's in response to the fact that, as you noted again, that perimeter security just doesn't cut it anymore. And not only that, but it's also very complex and very manual. So what you've got to do is, while you're automating the data centers, while you're automating the wide area, you've got to bring the security along. You've got to make it as agile. And again, what we have done is we do microsegmentation from the branch all the way to where the application is for that particular user. So in other words, finance users can only access finance applications. And that's a microsegment end-to-end. No one in the industry does that today. What they do is they do microsegmentation only for the applications within the data center or they prevent just the users to communicate between each other but not users to the applications. So, that is very important for our customers to know that we have that capability. But then it's all about also understanding what's going on in the network. >> Jeff: Right. >> And that's where the rich analytics that we have just really help them understand who's talking to who at application level, and being able to then have that domain-wide view and be able to very quickly respond to CERT alerts. So, because today, when a CERT alert comes in, they don't know what to do. They take a brute force approach because they simply don't know where and how to react. But now, because you have this centralized intelligence and you have domain-wide view, and you're able to do microsegmentation end-to-end, you are able to push a button and be as course or as granular but be very surgical and take action very quickly. >> Alright, so, hard to believe that we're almost to the end of 2017 which I can't believe. So as we turn the calendar, what are some of your priorities for 2018? You've been doing this for awhile. What are you working on? What's kind of top of mind as we enter this new calendar year? >> Right, and what we are noticing is we're going from beachheads to mainstream. So, we are getting deployed. The solid deployments is not only as I noted in data centers, in public cloud, private cloud, but also in the wide area. We are collaborating with our customers to really make this mainstream because it is super-important in terms of not only providing that automation and agility but also the security. So that's what we are focused on. We continue to do that, not only for what we call the virtualized security services solution that we have and not only the telco clouds, but also the virtualized services, cloud services. We're going to cover the gamut and that's what we're after. We are really excited to be leading the charge here. >> Alright, well, Sunil, thanks for taking a few minutes. Hopefully it won't be 18 months before we sit down again. And we look forward to watching the progress. >> Great, thank you. Thank you for having me. >> It's a pleasure. He's Sunil. I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto Studios for CUBE Conversations. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

live from Seattle Washington it's the cube covering dr. Kahn 2060 brought to you by dr. now you're your host John furrier and Brian Grace Lee okay welcome back and we are here live in Seattle Washington for Doc archon 2016 this is SiliconANGLE media is the cubes our flagship program and go out to the events and extract the signal from noise I'm John fourth by coach Brian Grace Lee our next guests Emil khandekar was the CEO of nuage networks part of Nokia welcome to the cube thank you to see you right so my doctor madness is really exploding in the developer community certainly galvanizing the digital transformation at the end of the day we always say in the cube the network's a bottleneck you got it and it's really about what's under the hood we just had talked to head biggest startup about storage you see a lot of disruption certainly and how infrastructures being technology being developed and make it more programmable yeah where is the story with the network where's that fit in what's the updates there because this is the day that's a critical piece of the pie indeed absolutely for ultimately for apps to be deployed on the network on any infrastructure as you said network has to get out of the way to create that developer efficiency to allow for applications to be deployed very quickly and how do you make that happen because containers are really being talked about we are the conference 4,000 plus people fantastic however CIOs know that they have not only the container technology to deal with but they have virtual eyes were closed and have had those words will eyes were closed for a long time they have bare metal servers that are supporting applications that probably will never move for a while so you have these very changing very dynamic environment and you have to understand how the networking can tie those things together seamlessly that's where we come in as much networks because your networks is essentially Sdn venture of Nokia and what we have at large networks what we've done is it's a modern Network policy based automation platform that allows for any workload whether it's a virtualized workload weather is a container workload whether it's a bare-metal server all to come together and be stitched automatically to allow for that application to be deployed quickly how is that different from other Sdn cloud architectures right you guys are doing within Nokia right so first and foremost what we have is it's a platform that we've built it's a virtualized services automation platform it's not a point solution for only the data center assets to be automated or only the SD when as it's called branch to be automated what it is it's is declarative policy-based automation platform that allows for which is open by the way completely open incorporates open source technologies and allows for all types of workloads if it's in and across data centers so virtualized workloads bare-metal workloads existing were closed as well as incorporates different hypervisor and cloud management system technologies and allows for connection to the branch and to the white area so you're saying it was built for cloud in mind is that what it was very much built for cloud enablement in mind making sure that we didn't forget on the way the existing environment and what you're seeing in the difference really between us and other platforms that are out there is essentially some of the SDN platforms are mono if you will and very narrow sliver they're based only for the data center and work on it on only on a mono hypervisor technology or some platforms are only looking at the SD van branch platform then were meant is such that you want and the cios want automation platform that is consistent across private on-prem as well as public resources and works across multiple hypervisor technologies and the big deal there is because you say point technologies but that that's code word for the older older approaches which was you know back in the mini-computer land days internet internet working you stand up some networks have policies and certainly policy based in a packet management and that was it that's right and you manage it within the data center that's right and that was adequate at that time so a vertically integrated stack in that simplified environment was adequate now now have such a variety of use cases you have got to deal with the cloud native applications you go to deal with the older applications but you need a consistent platform because ultimately you're looking to align ID to business needs and how do you align idea to business needs you do that by getting the networking out of the way and creating automation but again delivering operational simplification getting network out of the way I love that I you know a lot of CIOs are CEOs are seeing startups get into their industry you know if you're in pure and automobiles there's people that are trying to disrupt you you're in hotels everybody knows about those would what what is that you know they go great i can go hire some application developers i want to go faster yeah somebody says gilts get the network out of the way who are who are you selling to them what who is that person that says that sounds great but i still got to figure out routing and i got to figure out security i got to make it highly available who's the decision-maker in your world these days great great question Brian so a couple of points one these days any large enterprise that is looking to IT to create differentiation for their core business and if that means almost every large enterprises rely on IT heavily for their requirements as well as to create a differentiation for their own for product whatever it might be but they saw tomato its farmers pharmaceutical its retail those are indeed the customer that we are talking to because what they have is their environment has shifted as John said earlier it's not very simply a simple environment the environment will become complicated and to do that the networking requirements have become a very sophisticated as in you need application isolation you need multi-tenancy you need the ability to deploy policy very very quickly you need effortless governance of your security policies and compliance you need to be able to stitch all these were close together and also have a strategy for private and public cloud what that means is you need the technologies that were available to the top of the if you will only tier one service providers and bring that to the enterprise's and that's what we have done what use can you what use cases specifically around containers and policy do you see out there okay you specific yeah absolutely so I'll give you an example of a customer that was in OpenStack betfair is online betting and we have my cubes yeah that's right you had richard i say i believe and and what they have is they have 100 million plus transactions in a day on their infrastructure dare use cases continuous integration anything that did that scale at that scale and and so they're using the wash to basically create that automation for all their workloads that's one use case the other use cases we have a very large fortune five company that is looking to use the watch for automation of their virtualized machines so they have a cloud stack and they have kvm based hypervisor with virtual as virtual machines and they're using containers with measles and watch is the only platform that's allowing them to stitch these environments together seamlessly apply the same policy and same so you guys are a platform for a cloud native like environment with existing infrastructure you bring those together we bring that together in a highly automated way and then we allow for security very important security as in we prevent you know spread of mile there we die very quickly being able to enforce the policies we provide multi-tenancy doctors a huge security nightmare because just as much the benefits can interoperate with I mean the applications can be put in containers so good viruses exactly a naked scale and that's what our job is to make sure that how do you do it it doesn't do that because by able to very quickly enforce policies and Quarantine the workload so upon detection of malware our system gets a notification based on that notification we are able to because we have full view of all the workloads whether they are in private data center of public data center or in the branch we can very quickly then quickly effectively and surgically quarantine that workload because we know exactly where that workload is and we know exactly the policy to enforce this also helps by the way this system also helps by you know you get a security threat alert today it's it's a brute-force approach you go down and shut down a segment now with this policy based automation you go to the policy and you say I want only this application to not be allowed to do use this protocol and instantly that policy is deployed yeah I'm sort of picking up on two things you talk about sort of end and the platform for everywhere a lot of that's because we don't have boundaries anymore you know mobile phone changes a boundary that its executive office people are moving around so you need to be you need to have that sort of end end visibility you don't have segmentation like you used to and you talk about policy you know I need to be able as a developer to go network team I need you to sort of give me a service and then I just want to call it I don't want to have to call you I might be working at two at night we might have to change something on the fly like that's why the policy piece is so important is that right you are absolutely correct Brian and that is so critical because ultimately what ID is struggling with is how do they enforce the governance the security governance when application needs to be deployed I teak generally gets in the way not because they want to because they want to enforce certain security certain compliance policies and until now it has always been that manual process now with the security policy based infrastructure what they are able to do is they are able to put the policy once and they're insured that that policy is deployed seamlessly across all their workloads and so they have to audit the policy once and it's guaranteed provisioning which is error-free provisioning so it's huge in terms of the ability for enterprises to react to problems but also any changes the agility this brings the system brings to the table because ultimately you know without the network there is really no cloud and this is why we're hearing people talk about sec ops and sec DevOps and really security integrated without automation consistently automatable same thing every single time absolutely we have a one customer which is again a very large financial base in New York and their issue was exactly that in terms of being able to when I'm talking their CSO and the chief security officer the biggest thing that they took away from our policy based automation was not only the ability to able to stitch all these environments together seamlessly but being able to provide compliance being able to provide the automated policy infrastructure for all their birth was being able to really provide that application isolation those are big deals yeah very big deals for the CX those and csos Sonia we gotta wrap but I want to get your final thoughts on nuage and Nokia like you spend a minute talk about the distinction between the branding of the sea of nuage honestly the name is different I'll see Nokia is big you guys are part of that yes I explain to the people watching what you guys are about size scope the kind of engagement revenue or and how that compares and contrasts to nokia which we're part of but integers so we had a wholly-owned SD inventor of nokia and what we are focusing on is this policy based automation network automation for the data centers wide area and the branches nokia provides us tremendous sponsorship they are very much behind cash is and they recognize the value in our ability to serve the largest of the largest enterprise customers but also because of nokia we are able to address and are involved in very large service Reuters of projects so that's what helps us be involved they have huge scale so the way we work is we focus on over RND the innovation we bring to the table the community that we serve but nokia provides us and the reach yeah reporting the resources but you're wholly-owned meaning you run and run independently if you will we are yes but we are fully owned by nokia we just operate and focus on this it allows us to number customers can you share some data yeah and if we completed two years in the market and in two years we have over 60 plus customers we have over 200 deployments that we have completed pilot trials and deployments but we have 60 Plus very large service droid our customers cloud service providers for huge integrations and also the very big very big enterprise customers i named a couple of Fortune five companies but we are in retail we are in high tech we are in health care the new fabric your new fabric in these big high scale infrastructures that have diverse needs and diverse workloads there and have the need to stitch all that together in a cohesive fashion to build that automated fabric for a poseable almost right composable yeah to ultimately bring agility and align ID to the business I love the word composable infrastructure it really treats the infrastructure is programmable which is the nirvana make it an invisible make it get out of the way get out of the way but yet make it effortless I leave highly performing too so indeed heuer high-performance invisible that's right that's infrastructure as code and Neil thanks for sharing your insight here and the cube really appreciate nuage networks the CEO here on the cube live at da Kirk on I'm John Foley Brian Grace Lee we write back you're watching the cube

live from las vegas it's the cube covering discover 2016 las vegas brought to you by Hewlett Packard Enterprise now you're your host John furrier and Dave vellante okay welcome back here and we are here live in Las Vegas for HP discover 2016 exclusive coverage from SiliconANGLE media's two cubes our flagship program we go out to the events and extract the signal noise i'm john / with my co-host dave allante and our next guest is Bobby Patrick CMO of the cloud enterprise group at HPE and Michael Loomis head of sales of global enterprise that at nuage networks pardon now part of Nokia that's right welcome back to the cube welcome for the first time thank you very much may the cube alumni club that's right it's bro my cabin I leave I gotta get a platinum membership now no VIP Thompson after six times you got we people want have a cube alumni event at these events so it's be fun next year like that we'll look at that yeah Bobby I want to get touch base on the cloud you also you'd run in the cloud group I Nokia's customer of you guys obviously HP everyone knows the history had the public cloud they kind of pivoted over and now you guys found your swim lane alright you to just take a minute right to clarify Andrey amplify what we talked about last and right I'm in London around HP's cloud strategy it's not like it's not define you guys have a clear line of sight right take a minute to just share your vision and the specifically the company's cloud strategy yeah thanks John it's great to be here again you know cloud is the catalyst for our customers transformation and our partners and got 24 here at discover onstage showcasing he lien at healing at work it up I've been there two years now and our cloud strategy couldn't be any more on fire and working this three prongs to it the first one is we want to help customers in a multi cloud world source manager consume cloud services across traditional IT private managed in public rightly so the azure partnership before we have dropbox now as well and others so we're demonstrating that second one is we want to partner with the leading technology so you mentioned the public cloud we used to have in the past now we're focused on that part of the right mix of our customers cloud strategy on public cloud partnerships so you see that Microsoft Azure specialty clouds like enter links around document collaboration you know doc Dropbox so all examples of demonstrating around partner clouds and the third one is we want to integrate our solutions with those clouds as well so managing that multi-cloud world is complex working with becomes like Nokia we're taking healing and healing OpenStack is giving Cloud Foundry we're layering on it called cloud orchestration which we now bundle as our healing Cloud suite today and we pull in public cloud we pull in manage private and traditional IT into one single solution for our customers so you mentioned as your and there's nothing in the announcements this morning that mention as yours that's the previous relationship right we announced our partners with as your last discover this one there's a number of announcements just showing it at work right our managed cloud broker offering cloud brokerage is a really big deal now for CIOs trying to manage a multi-cloud world now extends to azure so there's a lot of those announcements are going to see throughout discover with Azure and there's gonna be some other cloud announcements as well well we'll get to the eucalyptus AWS relationship kind of late if I wanted to ask you specifically around the strategy and how you see the cloud enabling delivery and on the opening i mentioned dave was asking about my views on HP's growth and I kind of use the story of back in the old days of the many computers this little laserjet attachment to walang system was a major growth engine for HP and the rest is history so we're kind of looking at the cloud and saying okay is IOT that bolt onto the cloud that is going to lift up where cloud becomes also pervasive like many computers and then distributed computing did how are you guys enabling things like IOT right because now the hybrid cloud public private data center right is integrating together right do you see that as an integration into the cloud and you enabling those kinds of things there's actually two big kind of growth axes that I think a report right one is you mentioned IOT so the number of devices connected the amount of data just huge orders of magnitude growth you got to actually drive costs down and things as well be part of that and so that's a big deal i would say universal platform that we announced as well healing is a back-end for that so massive scale on OpenStack on our cloud line service or other so you get that Maxim economics with new wash another spreading across multiple data centers for availability we have that platform for IOT but I think from a growth in March we look at the new hpe now right the lighter nimbler stronger when i layer on our security product security's number one concern our customers have going to go into cloud you know arcsight being able to do threat detection across a hybrid cloud right right the ability to do encryption with our data secure product right bringing in our big data products like Vertica for the column data store in our in our work around Hadoop or distributed are right when you get to bring those pieces into the fold right you begin to have the ability to add on top high-value software and services more of the stack you know obviously infrastructure across the bottom so what I see is us growing share of wallet growing our strategic relevance by both by both handling the massive amounts of data that's being generated supporting the connected world but also security managing that data big data fast data and providing that full stack on top and we're bringing all those pieces together but the past HP kind of have these siloed be use in a way right not anymore all these pieces are coming together and that's a big part of my my organization responsibility so Michael talked about where nuage fits in what's the relationship where do you guys add value so nuage is a what we call a software-defined networking product it's born out of some routing technology that we've had for a number of years we started our router products back in 2001 and we're number one or number two depending on the category and service provider edge routers and when you look at the the problem of scale out and flexibility in the cloud you need some complex network constructs that may not be ready of readily available in some of those cloud tools and obviously you can't go throw an expensive service provider edge router at that problem so what we did is we took that software use that as a SDN controller to manage the forwarding tables of the virtual switches or the namespace in the case of linux container integrated that into the distribution or a cloud system like Keely on and there you go you've got a stack that can scale out at the network layer and at the composite VMware killer yeah as a solution Kyle singer always talking about network and he's so proud of his acquisition of the stn player and the sierra which is a part of the vmware but dave and i always saw always saw that the network was the bottom that you seeing a rube out there yes pacifically talk about where the network piece fits in and why that's so important right now with cloud you mentioned some technical things but is it is it really the DevOps enable or is it about the containers is it about the micro services all the above what's the key will issue network is important for scale anytime you want to go multi data center or hybrid or you want to secure your applications you got to have an advanced networking solution or an SDN solution what's driving that scale you know we approach private cloud a few years back we had the stack we were putting it together we got nice production pilots up in the customers and then we found that a lot of the applications weren't built to consume the flexibility and the scale out that we delivered with that private cloud so these enterprises are going back and they've got new applications that are coming on that are micro services oriented architectures cloud native applications and they can consume this architecture and they're starting to it's not just IOT it's lots of applications that are relooking at how to take advantage of this infrastructure it's being built and that spreads across multiple data centers and part of the hybrid cloud which is why solid networking solutions important it's absolutely critical have good networking let's get to the DevOps question I'll see the big process workloads one of the things you guys have talked about in your announcements morning was obviously workload management having the ability of flexibility by poseable infrastructure yadda yadda yeah I got it Michael you that you're developing this stuff and the thing that Dave and I here and Wikibon community from customers is make it easier for me the total cost of ownership is out of control it's super hard to do this how does this get easier how are people managing through the complexity to make it simpler and how are they managing the total cost of ownership keeley on so that's just why it's important for us because we come in and we have a lot of great networking technology but people are not going to consume that networking technology in and of themselves they need a integrated complete stack that's supported installs quickly and as an orchestration layer on top that's going to allow it to scale the staples an example this I just say annealing what specifically about helium makes it simpler lower costs so when you look at healing on one great tool set they built together is an installer tool set and so there's nice scripting that's going to take when you look at a cloud you've got OpenStack components you've got your Cloud Foundry components you got your networking components storage components and to have all of that stuff install and deploy seamlessly and scale out as demand is required that doesn't come off the shelf if you're going to self integrate some of these open source projects so that the support and service that's added with helium and then if you look at the sea a slate layer on top to manage all the components and integrate in with some of the public clouds that's what takes the technology stack from being a great set of standards and a great set of open-source products that can now be consumed well dude some installation was the biggest barrier openstax had for a long time now how complex it was to install it scale right so i think that the contract and it takes it from a stack of technology to something that actually solves a business so that business problem is IT labor right right that's right non differentiated provisioning or patching or talk about the shift that's going on within that sort of labor pool from stuff that gives you no competitive advantage out to where we are today or where we're headed we used to go into proof of concepts and the customer would one or two types they either have an OpenStack expert in there someone who had lived and breathe it and was part of the original community and they would work with us to get the initial stack up and running a guy a guy or we would have to bring that guy to the table and they get somebody that was trying to be that person we'd help them stand up OpenStack at the same time we'd go in with nuage we knew that wasn't going to work so that's when we started partnering strongly with partners like healing on who can come in and make that work for the enterprise and if you're in a CIOs position you don't want to be dependent on one or two OpenStack experts that you've got to make sure stay or you gotta hire an army of OpenStack engineers what you want is a private cloud that works in a trusted partner to deliver it for you but you want the openness and the standards-based attributes of a product like Helion so you can plug other pieces of the environment in so that's it's really important Dave just you know the average the average customer that we have today has one engineer for every 240 virtual machines with helium staccato 40 which were rolling out has we believe we can get that to 12 500 and that's because you've got a universal control plane where you've got a single pane of glass basically across all the clouds but as your AWS openstack-based clouds maybe even some vmware stack clouds as well and and you could through one see the workloads deploy them that's how you really get a continuous delivery pipeline going it's api's for developers but a single pane of glass for IT and scale what's key it's working now so it brought up VMware VMware killer when you mention it so I'll bring up the VMware question so back in the day VMware ecosystem was really robust yeah some are saying it's on the decline will see that what's the update our vmworld the cube will be there again this year but they made for every one of their partners they made ten dollars for every dollar VMware book so they threw up a lot of cash which is great but the ecosystem you know feeds the feeds that feeds the beast if you will how are you guys Bobby doing that with your partners and now do you see docker for instance enabling things like that and how does that all you have to do some sort of economic advantage for your partners can you share some insight into what you got yeah yeah yeah so in addition to you know that the terms around helping it be attractive to skill up and and transfer our partners transforming as well most of them in resellers you know they want to climb the stack now they would be more relevant to their customers the skilling up does have come with cost and one of the big things we're doing is working on go to market with them actually bringing them bringing them opportunities bringing them in the deals in the case of like with with with Nokia right the ability to to go in with them work on accounts together these are major really large significant IT transformations with our other partners as well skilling them up getting bringing them away wrapping services around their monetization services wrappers yeah they're actually building hostess back up as a service other kinds of service offerings that they build and run themselves that we will actually sell to our go-to-market channels or they'll deploy on site that you know most of our business you know seventy percent goes through the channel right was there a number can you share a number ten dollars I don't have the number by the number how do stuff how does the ecosystem build around and how they make money with helion's the services is that the apps we deploy we sell software licenses so as Helion scales out we get more workloads on the system then we're going to sell more software licenses but the ecosystem is critical for us because when you're talking about building a private cloud and you're talking about building an open private cloud which is getting away from the vendor lock that exists today which is why people are driving to some of these open source products it means that a lot of products have to come together and work well together and so it usually it's the it's the OpenStack distribution that's that's like healing on that's leading that ecosystem we're a part of that and then we get interaction with a lot of other components as a part of that ecosystem that helps build an end solution to the customer we have 360 now cloud builder partners we had 30 18 months ago will have 3018 more months right we're transforming them and they're building new businesses hire marketing services and grow in their bodies how do you see the CSC Spinco whatever we're going to call that affecting is you had basically a built-in consumer right of you know your stuff there one of the Cantonian area's biggest customers right how will that shake out you think and of course CS he has a strong relationship with AWS that's goodness but yeah yeah I think I think it's about focuses meg always says writes about it's about having companies i can really focus on their best thing right so you know we have a growth high growth a growth company focus on software and hardware and infrastucture and services I think outsourcing they're coming together with CSC they're building a be a big partner of ours but we're also part with Accenture and others as well so I think it's hella everybody to be the best of what they do we'll have relationships contractual and partnership relationships but it will allow maybe a bit more complete competition probably very very healthy you feel Alfie with the sis the big power s eyes you guys in good shape with those guys yeah in Price Waterhouse Coopers just received a partner of the year for cloud they're here in a big way accenture is here yeah I think they're they're big as well but you know our enterprise services and and they're here in a big way too and I think that will continue some of the influences out there last question wants to know about the update on equal lyptus AWS that relation down can give an update yeah so our strategy is to partner with public cloud providers many of them eucalyptus has a great story you know where obviously you go to reinvent or a big part of that you know I think there will be you'll see more to come on the public cloud partnership partnership face but will be at reinvent no to the cube watch a movie at dr. Khan as well coming up very quickly I think next week or the week after thank you okay let me avenge coming up guys thanks so much appreciate it thanks for spending the time yeah thank you i'll be Patrick Michael Loomis here on the cube this is a cube we'll be right back after this short break

(uplifting music) Hi, I'm Peter Burris. Welcome to another CUBEConversation from our wonderful studios in beautiful Palo Alto, California. Once again, we got a great topic today and we're going to be talking a little bit about the role that security is playing in multicloud. Now to have that conversation we've got Hari Krishnan here with us. Hari is the Senior Director of Product Management for security at Nuage Networks which is a division of Nokia. Hari, welcome to theCUBE. >> Glad to be here, thank you. >> So here's why this is so important, Hari. A lot of people for years have been talking about how, data is going to move to the cloud. Well, there's certainly going to be some of that. Increasingly, people are recognizing it. The more important strategy or the better strategy, think about how we're moving the cloud services to the data. Which means we're going to have multicloud. And as we think about moving data around making data more of a primary citizen within the business, and certainly within the networking world. It means that we have to think differently about the role that networking plays in that multicloud, specifically around security. Talk to us a little bit about first Nuage Networks, who you are? And then let's get into this question of what does it mean for networking, security in this multicloud world? >> Absolutely. I know it's a great, great question, thanks, Peter. So first of all, Nuage Networks. We are a business unit within Nokia, and we are sort of the SDN arm, if you will. Software Defined Networking and security for both data center branch and goes without saying in the multicloud era, we provide solutions that are both secure, as well as connect these an end to end multiple environments across these spread networks, both from a branch perspective as well as from from a data center and cloud perspective. >> So these are all the locations where activity is going to happen, therefore data has to be there, but they still have to be in a connected way. So talk to us about this challenge of networking in a multicloud world. Because it's not all one way. It's going to be all ... It's going to be a very, very complex arrangements of resources that have to be brought together with performance, flexibility and security. What does that require? >> Yes,that's a great question. So we have a lot of customers. We talked about our enterprise customers who have gone down this multicloud plat because they have workloads, and as you said workloads and data, and based upon the application, they are making choices for a particular cloud. Some of them may be more analytics oriented, they chose a particular cloud environment for that workload. So they have workloads invariably across multiple clouds. In addition to that they have a large set of those assets and key assets and data that are residing in their private data center as well. And they are looking at how they can provide better connectivity to these cloud applications from their branch. So as you rightly put, the problem is how do you do that in this sort of heterogeneous environments? And today a lot of the solutions are siloed. What you find is you have multicloud networking and security solutions, but they don't really tackle the problem of connecting these branches or SD-WAN, that SD-WAN vendors focus on. But they really don't address these cloud challenges. So really there are these silos that we find in the enterprise. We also see vendors going in and offering solutions that are focused on particular environments, maybe containers, for example, or maybe specific types of virtual machines. But really from an enterprise perspective, their assets and data are everywhere, and they are in different forms. So what Nuage set out to do from the very beginning, was to provide a platform that really connects these regardless of where these workloads reside, and these workloads can be heterogeneous. Really whether it is containers, whether it is virtual machines, whether it is bare metal, whether it is on-prem or in the public cloud. And really that's really been our core focus, and we have had a lot of success working with service providers on the SD-WAN, and we just announced as SD-WAN 2.0 which is really about more than connectivity, providing IT services over these IP networks, whether it is about visibility, analytics, security. So again, our platform-based approach lends well with not only addressing the SD-WAN use cases, we also have a presence with large customers, large enterprises as well as with cloud service providers using our platform for private cloud offering as well as public cloud offering. >> So if we kind of think about the problem statement. We're talking about a world that is increasingly dependent, from a digital business standpoint on the role of data is going to play. Increasingly thinking about how that data interacts with each other and how we secure that data, because that's the basis for making it private. With a lot of new workloads on the horizon and a lot of new resources that could be running those workloads, whether it's virtual machines or containers or anything that might come along in the future. And the networking has to be flexible enough that it can handle those new classes of workloads, those new notions of data and data security and the new resources, many of them software that are coming on to create these applications. Have I got that right? >> Absolutely. So your networking has to be flexible enough and your security model has to be fundamentally different. And what I mean by that is you know we have a perimeter centric approach earlier which is sufficient if you have all the workloads in one location You know, the workloads in this. >> So perimeter centric is sufficient if the device is the first citizen of the network, right? >> Absolutely. >> So keep going, I'm sorry. >> Absolutely, so with workloads as they are moved around and especially you know in a cloud environment or in a very dynamic environment such as in a container environment, these are spun up and down. The architecture needs to be more tied to the workloads and data. Security needs to be tied to the workload, and we call that the workload centric security model. And again, fundamental to this is the notion of as Forrester talked about zero trust, which is again about you know not assuming any trust, just because your workload is in a particular location, and you cannot allow certain users to just, you know access that workload because by virtue of it being in a particular location as an example, right? So really it should be tied to the workloads, and if the workloads are moved around, the policy should move with the workload. And again fundamental to this is again a change in the architecture, where the policies are enforced closer to the workload, the policies independent of where the workload resides, and the policy should govern not only a particular environment or set of environment, such as multicloud, but access from anywhere to that workload. By that I mean a user can come in from a branch, and we want to make sure that that branch user is only able to access that workload, regardless of where workload resides, right? So today if you look at it, the solutions are very siloed in the sense that you have micro segmentation implementations in a particular environment, but they really don't tie in the policy end to end. They don't do end to end segmentation from the branch to the data center. And that's really where we focus on, is providing this end to end approach to securing workloads and data, regardless of where the workloads are coming. I would say for example, if your workloads and data are moved to Mars, your policy should be able to move with the workload and secure it, right? It's really location independent. >> But fundamentally it's that security capability has to move with the workload. >> Absolutely. >> That's really what the customer... That's really what the enterprise wants. They want the security capability where the policy and some of the other resources that you're talking about are what provide that capability. >> Absolutely. >> And John Kindervag is a very, very smart guy. Ex-Forrester guy who came up with this notion zero trust. Great ex-colleague. So if we think about it, we've got this problem statement that increasingly the world's becoming digital, and now we have to make the workload and the data the first citizen. That's going to require a new architectural approach, new types of technologies, Nuage is the vanguard of providing that approach. Let's get into some of the examples. How are customers using this today to improve their security and avoid problems of the past. >> Absolutely. So, we have, customers who are using this. And I'll give you some examples of it right. And a lot of the customers when they look at us, they really see the architecture as a key advantage, being able to provide end to end security across heterogeneous environments. And I'll give you some example. They typically have a starting point, right? I mean, that's, you know, I'll give you an example of one of the large financial customers we are working with. They are looking at securing workloads in public cloud. And this is a container environment running OpenShift and Kubernetes, and they want to be able to secure the workloads. One of the key requirements in the public cloud is that, and this goes hand in hand with zero trust notion, is that they don't want to actually trust the public cloud vendor and regardless of who their vendor is. So they want to encrypt all the traffic between workloads in the public cloud, not only segmentation and getting full visibility into it, but also providing encryption. And so for for them, you know, what Nuage offers is the ability to do exactly that. We can secure these container workloads in the public cloud. We can enter the communications between the workloads. We brought in the same encryption mechanism that we had, you know SD-WAN into this public cloud, to solve this use case. And not only that, we can also securely connect those public cloud workloads to their on-prem legacy data center. For certain applications they need to connect back into the data center. And so we have a consistent policy model, with security, segmentation, visibility and encryption. That's a great example of from a public cloud and the multicloud example. The other example is in a traditional data center. Often times and this is again a large enterprise, who is currently deploying this micro segmentation technology and for them they don't have sufficient East-West protection within the data center. And so where Nuage comes in is the ability to be able to provide security that is again tied to the workload, and their environment is very heterogeneous. They not only have ESXI, they have a lot of bare metal. They have some KVM deployments. So they are looking for a common way to provide security for the workloads, regardless of what virtual machine type it is or what form factor the workload is. >> And it doesn't diminish the characteristics of those resources that they use because they provide certain advantages to using those resources. >> Absolutely, absolutely. I mean a lot of the key workloads and data that they have, some of them are in, you know, bare metal. Running in bare metal, right? It's a lot important for them, to be able to secure those workloads and do that in a way consistently because you have containers that may be communicating with an infrastructure service which is running on bare metal, for example. So how do you do that in a unified way? And that's really where you know we come in as providing the single policy, unified policy and visibility, in this heterogeneous environment. So that's an example of micro segmentation, a traditional data center. Another great example, and we have lots of service providers who are offering this as our SD-WAN service, where we provide secure connectivity with more than connectivity, but also providing visibility and analytics. So they can look at all the communication from the branch, not only to other branch locations, but also to workloads in the cloud. SAS is a is a great use case, local internet breakout to these cloud applications. So we provide security there and again, we have service providers who are offering this as a service. I mean, we have now several of them. BT-tellers and several service providers, that are offering our SD-WAN service. And just I think a couple of days back we announced the SD-WAN 2.0, where we are providing security, providing visibility, enabling value added services beyond just connecting with the SD-WAN environment. So those are some of the use cases beyond, you know, a single siloed environment. We're encompassing public cloud on-prem data center, but also more importantly, connecting workloads from branch to data center as well. >> So the last thing I want to do, is I want to ask you one quick question about the relationship between, with the evolving relationship between security, models, architectures, SOCs, and networking architectures, models and NOCs, and many people saying that they should be separated. We tend to think that that's a bad idea. But talk to us a little bit about how the evolution of security and networking comes together, especially as we think about both of them, starting with analytics, understanding having a discovery and remediation palette, so that the networking telemetry is informing security, the security telemetry is informing networking and you get a reasonable high quality response, no matter where you are in the organization. >> Absolutely. And you're spot on. I mean essentially networking and security combined will give much better value in terms of use cases protection, but also detection and response. And Gartner has been preaching this in adaptive security architecture which is really around, you know using, having a prediction model which is base lining based upon telemetary, based upon other sources of intelligence that you get and using that to drive protection. And just because your workloads are protected or micro segmented, doesn't mean that attacks would not go through. It's not a matter of when you're.... whether an attack happens or not, it's really when you are attacked, right? >> Well we've discovered the bad guys are patient. >> Absolutely and they'll continue to to find new ways to attack it. And so it's not just about prevention, but also using the intelligence, sources of data in the network to be able to detect and then take an action. Really, this has been referred by Gartner and in the industry as a sort of adaptive security architecture, which really requires a mindset change from sort of this incident response to a continuous response model, right? And we think that software- >> Driven by analytics? >> Exactly. And analytics is really the core of this. Because Analytics helps drive policies, but also helps detect new types of attacks. So really network has a very key role to play here because network is the source of truth. You see a lot of these attacks that are manifested in the network, and we can use this data. We can mine this data to be able to better prevent but also detect and respond quickly to these attacks. And again the change in mindset from sort of an incident response mindset to a continuous response mindset, all built upon this rich analytics that your network provides. >> Hari Krishnan, Nuage Networks talking about the relationship between security, networking and multicloud. Thanks very much for being on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> And once again this has been a CUBEConversation. I'm Peter Burris. Thank you very much for listening. Until next time. (uplifting music)

>> Narrator: Vancouver, Canada. It's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America, 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation and its Ecosystem partners. (soft music) >> Hi, and you're watching SiliconANGLE Medias coverage of theCUBE, here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in beautiful Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. We've been here, this is now the third day of coverage, John. We've done a couple dozen interviews already. We've got one more day of coverage. We had some kind of perceptions coming in and I have some interesting differing viewpoints as to where we are for OpenStack the project, where this show itself is going. First of all John, give me your impressions overall. Vancouver, your first time here, city I fell in love with last time I came here, and let's get into the show itself, too. >> Sure, sure, I mean the show's a little bit smaller this year than it had been in past years. Some of that is because they pulled some of the technical stuff out last year, or a couple years ago. By being a little bit smaller, and being in a place like Vancouver, I get good energy off of the crowd. The folks we've talked to, the folks that have been going to sessions, have said they've been very good. The people here are practitioners. They are running OpenStack, or about to run OpenStack, or upgrading their OpenStack, or other adjacent technologies. They're real people doing real work. As we talk to folks and sponsors, the conversations have been productive. So, I'd say in general, this kind of a small venue and a beautiful city allows for a really productive community-oriented event, so that's been great. >> Alright, so John come on, on the analysis segment we're not allow to pull any punches. Attendance, absolutely is down. Three years ago when we were here it was around 5500. Mark Collier, on our opening segment, said there was about 2600. But two-year point, I've not talked to a single vendor or attendee here that was like, "Oh boy, nobody's here, "it's not goin' on." Yes, the Expo Hall is way smaller and people flowing through the Expo Hall isn't great all the time, but why is that? Because the people that are here, they're in sessions. They have 40 sessions about Edge Computing. Hot topic, we've talked a bunch about that. Interesting conversations. There is way more in Containers. Containers for more than three years, been a topic conversation. There's so many other sessions of people digging in. The line you've used a couple a time is the people here are people that have mortgages. In a good way, it means these are jobs, these are not them, "Oh, I heard about "this cool new thing, and I'm going to "go check out beautiful Vancouver." Now, yes, we've brought our spouses or significant others, and checking out the environment because yeah, this place is awesome, but there's good energy at the show. There's good technical conversation. Many of the people we've talked to, even if they're not the biggest OpenStack fans, they're like, "But our customers are using this in a lot of different ways." Let's talk about OpenStack. Where is it, where isn't it? What's your take from what you've heard from the customers and the vendors? >> Sure, I definitely think the conversation is warranted. As we came in, from outside the community there was a lot of conversation, even backchannel, like why are you going to OpenStack Summit? What's going on there, is it still alive? Which is kind of a perception of maybe it's an indication of where the marketing is on this project, or where it is on the hype cycle. In terms of where it is and where it isn't, it's built into everything. At this point OpenStack, the infrastructure management, open infrastructure management solution, seems to be mature. Seems to be inside every Telco, every cable company, every transportation company, every bank. People who need private resources and have the smarts and power to do that have leveraged OpenStack now. That seems stable. What was interesting here is, that that doesn't speak to the health overall, and the history of, or the future of the project itself, the foundation, the Summit, I think those are separate questions. You know, the infrastructure and projects seem good. Also here, like we've talked about, this show is not just about OpenStack now. It's about Containers, it's broadening the scope of these people informally known as infrastructure operators, to the application level as well. >> Yeah, if you want to hear a little bit more, some two great interviews we did yesterday. Sean Michael Kerner, who's a journalist. Been here for almost every single one of the OpenStack shows. He's at eWeek, had some really good discussion. He said private cloud, it doesn't exist. Now, he said what does he mean by that? There are companies that are building large scalable cloud with OpenStack but it's like if some of the big China Telecom, big China cloud companies. Oracle and IBM have lots of OpenStack, in what they do, and yes there are, as you mentioned, the telcos are a big used case. We had some Canonical customers talking about Edge as in a used case for a different type of scalability. Lots of nodes but not one massive infrastructure as a service piece. If I talk, kind of the typical enterprise, or definitely going the SNE piece of the market, this is not something that they go and use. They will use services that have OpenStack. It might be part of the ecosystem that they're playing, but people saying, "Oh, I had my VMware environment "and I want to go from virtualization "to private cloud" OpenStack is not usually the first choice, even though Red Hat has some customers that kind of fit into some of the larger sides of that, and we'll be talking to them more about that today. Randy Bias is the other one, take a look. Randy was one of the early, very central to a lot of stuff happening in the Foundation. He's in the networking space now, and he says even though he's not a cheerleader for OpenStack, he's like, "Why am I here? "That's where my customers are." >> Right, right. I mean, I do think it's interesting that public cloud is certainly mentioned. AWS, Google, et cetera, but it's not top of mind for a lot of these folks, and it's mentioned in very different ways depending on, kind of, the players. I think it's very different from last week at Red Hat Summit. Red Hat, with their story, and OpenShift on top of OpenStack, definitely talked public cloud for folks. Then they cross-cloud, hybrid-cloud. I think that was a much different conversation than I've been hearing this week. I think basically, kind of maybe, depends on the approach of the different players in the market, Stu. I know you've been talkin' to different folks about that. >> Yeah, absolutely. So like, Margaret Dawson at Red Hat helped us talk about how that hybrid-cloud works because here, I hate to say it's, some oh yeah, public cloud, that's too expensive. You're renting, it's always going to be more. It's like, well no, come on, let's understand. There's lot of applications that are there and customers, it's an and message for almost all of them. How does that fit together, I have some critiques as to how this goes together. You brought up another point though John, OpenStack Foundation is more than just OpenStack projects. So, Kata Containers, something that was announced last year, and we're talking about there's Edge, there's a new CI/CD tool, Zuul, which is now fully under the project. Yes, joke of the week, there is no OpenStack, there's only Zuul. There are actually, there's another open-source project named Zuul too, so boy, how many CI/CD tools are out there? We've got two different, unrelated, projects with the same name. John, you look at communities, you look at foundations, if this isn't the core knitting of OpenStack, what is their role vis-a-vis the cloud native and how do they compare to say, the big player in this space is Linux Foundation which includes CNCF. >> That's a good one. I mean, in some sense like all organic things, things are either growing or shrinking. Just growing or dying. On the other hand, in technology, nothing ever truly dies. I think the project seems mature and healthy and it's being used. The Foundation is global in scope and continues to run this. I do wonder about community identity and what it means to be an OpenStack member. It's very community-oriented, but what's at the nut of it here if we're really part of this cloud-native ecosystem. CNCF, you know, it's part of Linux Foundation, all these different foundations, but CNCF, on the other hand, is kind of a grab-bag of technology, so I'm not sure what it means to be a member of CNCF either. I think both of these foundations will continue to go forward with slightly different identities. I think for the community as a whole, the industry as a whole, they are talking and they better be talking, and it's good that they're talking now and working better together. >> Yeah, great discussion we had with Lisa-Marie Namphy who is an OpenStack Ambassador. She holds the meat up in Silicon Valley and when she positions it, it's about cloud-native and its about all these things. So like, Kubernetes is front and center whereas some of the OpenStack people are saying, "Oh no, no, we need to talk more about OpenStack." That's still the dynamic here was, "Oh, we go great together." Well, sometimes thou dost protest too much. Kubranetes doesn't need OpenStack, OpenStack absolutely must be able to play in this Container, cloud-native Kubranetes world. There's lots of other places we can learn about Kubranetes. It is an interesting dynamic that have been sorting out, but it is not a zero-sum game. There's absolutely lots, then we have, I actually was real impressed how many customers we got to speak with on the air this time. Nice with three days of programming, we had a little bit of flexibility, and not just people that were on the keynote stage. Not just people that have been coming for years, but a few of the interviews we had are relatively new. Not somebody that have been on since very early in the alphabet, now we're at queens. >> Right. >> Anything more from the customers or that Container, Kubranetes dynamic that you want to cover? >> Sure, well I mean just that, you know, Containers at least, Containers are everywhere here. So, I think that kind of question has been resolved in some sense. It was a little more contentious last year than this year. I'm actually more bullish on OpenStack as a utility project, after this week, than before. I think I can constantly look people in the eye and say that. The interesting thing for me though, coming from Silicon Valley, is you're so used to thinking about VCs and growth, and new startups, and where's the cutting edge that it's kind of hard to talk about this, maybe this open source business model where the customer basis is finite. It's not growing at 100% a year. Sometimes the press has a hard time covering that. Analysts have a hard time covering that. And if you wanted to give advice to somebody to get into OpenStack, I'm not sure who should if they're not in it already, there's definitely defined use cases, but I think maybe those people have already self-identified. >> Alright, so yeah, the last thing I wanted to mention is yeah. Big thank you to our sponsors to help get us here. The OpenStack Foundation, really supportive of us for years. Six years of us covering it. Our headline sponsor, Red Hat, had some great customers. Talked about this piece, and kind of we talk about it's practically Red Hat month on theCUBE for John with Red Hat Summit and OpenStack. Canonical, Contron, Nuage Networks, all helping us to be able to bring this content to you. Be sure to check out theCUBE.net for all the coverage in the past as well as where we'll be. Hit John Troyer, J. Troyer, on Twitter or myself, Stu, on Twitter if you ever have any questions, people we should be talking to, viewpoints, whether you agree or disagree with what we're talking about. Big thanks to all of our crew here. Thank you to the wonderful people of Vancouver for being so welcoming of this event and of all of us. Check out all the interviews. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (soft upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, fro-- >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE! Covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi and welcome to SiliconANGLE Media's production of theCUBE here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost, John Troyer. We're here for three days of live wall-to-wall coverage at the OpenStack Foundation's show they have it twice a year John, pleasure to be with you again, you and I were together at the OpenStack show in Boston, a year ago, little bit further trip for me. But views like this, I'm not complaining. >> It's a great time to be in Vancouver, little bit overcast but the convention center's beautiful and the people seem pretty excited as well. >> Yeah so if you see behind us, the keynote let out. So John, we got to get into the first question of course for some reason the last month people are always Hey Stu where are you, what're you doing and when I walk through the various shows I'm doing when it comes to this one they're like, why are you going to the OpenStack show? You know, what's going on there, hasn't that been replaced by everything else? >> I got the same thing, there seems to be kind of a almost an antireligious thing here in the industry maybe more emotional perhaps at other projects. Although frankly look, we're going to take the temperature of the community, we're going to take the temperature of the projects, the customers, we got a lot of customers here, that's really the key here is that our people actually using this, being productive, functional, and is there enough of a vendor and a community ecosystem to make this go forward. >> Absolutely, so three years ago, when we were actually here in Vancouver, the container sessions were overflowing, people sitting in the aisles. You know containers, containers, containers, docker, docker, docker, you know, we went through a year or two of that. Then Kubernetes, really a wave that has taken over, this piece of the infrastructure stack, the KubeCon and CloudNativeCon shows, in general, I think have surpassed this size, but as we know in IT, nothing ever dies, everything is always additive, and a theme that I heard here that definitely resonated is, we have complexity, we need to deal with interoperability, everybody has a lot of things and that's the, choose your word, hybrid, multi-cloud world that you have, and that's really the state of opensource, it's not a thing, it's there's lots of things you take all the pieces you need and you figure out how to put 'em together, either buy them from a platform, you have some integrator that helps, so somebody that puts it all together, and that's where, you know, we live here, which is, by they way, I thought they might rename the show in the open, and they didn't, but there's a lot of pieces to discuss. >> Definitely an open infrastructure movement, we'll probably talk about that, look I loved the message this morning that the cloud is not consolidating, in fact it's getting more complicated, and so that was a practical message here, it's a little bit of a church of opensource as well, so the open message was very well received and, these are the people that are working on it, of course, but yeah, the fact that, like last year I thought in Boston, there was a lot of, almost confusion around containers, and where containers and Kubernetes fit in the whole ecosystem, I think, now in this year in 2018 it's a lot more clear and OpenStack as a project, or as a set of projects, which traditionally was, the hit on it was very insular and inward facing, has at least, is trying to become outward facing, and again that's something we'll be looking at this week, and how well will they integrate with other opensource projects. >> I mean John, you and I are both big supporters of the opensource movements, love the community at shows like this, but not exclusively, it's, you know, Amazon participating a little bit, using a lot of opensource, they take opensource and make it as a service, you were at Red Hat Summit last week, obviously huge discussion there about everything opensource, everything, so a lot going on there, let me just set for, first of all the foundation itself in this show, the thing that I liked, coming into it, one of the things we're going to poke at is, if I go up to the highest level, OpenStack is not the only thing here, they have a few tracks they have an Edge computer track, they have a container track, and there's a co-resident OpenDev Show happening a couple floors above us and, even from what the OpenStack Foundation manages, yes it OpenStack's the main piece of it, and all those underlying projects but, they had Katacontainers, which is, you know, high level project, and the new one is Zuul, talking about CI/CD, so there are things that, will work with OpenStack but not exclusively for OpenStack, might not even come from OpenStack, so those are things that we're seeing, you know, for example, I was at the Veeam show last week, and there was a software company N2WS that Veeam had bought, and that solution only worked on Amazon to start and, you know, I was at the Nutanix show the week before, and there's lots of things that start in the Amazon environment and then make their way to the on-premises world so, we know it's a complex world, you know, I agree with you, the cloud is not getting simpler, remember when cloud was: Swipe the credit card and it's super easy, the line I've used a lot of times is, it is actually more complicated to buy, quote, a server equivalent, in the public could, than it is if I go to the website and have something that's shipped to my data center. >> It's, yeah, it's kind of ironic that that's where we've ended up. You know, we'll see, with Zuul, it'll be very interesting, one of the hits again on OpenStack has been reinvention of the wheel, like, can you inter-operate with other projects rather than doing it your self, it sounds like there's some actually, some very interesting aspects to it, as a CI/CD system, and certainly it uses stuff like Ansible so it's, it's built using opensource components, but, other opensource components, but you know, what does this give us advantage for infrastructure people, and allowing infrastructure to go live in a CI/CD way, software on hardware, rather than, the ones that've been built from the dev side, the app side. I'm assuming there's good reasons, or they wouldn't've done it, but you know, we'll see, there's still a lot of projects inside the opensource umbrella. >> Yeah, and, you know, last year we talked about it, once again, we'll talk about it here, the ecosystem has shifted. There are some of the big traditional infrastructure companies, but what they're talking about has changed a lot, you know. Remember a few years ago, it was you know, HP, thousand people, billion dollar investment, you know, IBM has been part of OpenStack since the very beginning days, but it changes, even a company like Rackspace, who helped put together this environment, the press release that went was: oh, we took all the learnings that we did from OpenStack, and this is our new Kubernetes service that we have, something that I saw, actually Randy Bias, who I'll have on the show this week, was on, the first time we did this show five years ago, can't believe it's the sixth year we're doing the show, Randy is always an interesting conversation to poke some of the sacred cows, and, I'll use that analogy, of course, because he is the one that Pets vs Cattle analogy, and he said, you know, we're spending a lot of time talking about it's not, as you hear, some game, between OpenStack and Kubernetes, containers are great, isn't that wonderful. If we're talking about that so much, maybe we should just like, go do that stuff, and not worry about this, so it'll be fun to talk to him, the Open Dev Show is being, mainly, sponsored by Mirantis who, last time I was here in Vancouver was the OpenStack company, and now, like, I saw them a year ago, and they were, the Kubernetes company, and making those changes, so we'll have Boris on, and get to find out these companies, there's not a lot of ECs here, the press and analysts that are here, most of us have been here for a lot of time so, this ecosystem has changed a lot, but, while attendance is down a little bit, from what I've heard, from previous years, there's still some good energy, people are learning a lot. >> So Stu, I did want to point out, that something I noticed on the stage, that I didn't see, was a lot of infrastructure, right? OpenStack, clearly an infrastructure stack, I think we've teased that out over the past couple years, but I didn't see a lot of talk about storage subsystems, networking, management, like all the kind of, hard, infrastructure plumbing, that actually, everybody here does, as well as a few names, so that was interesting, but at the end of the day, I mean, you got to appeal to the whole crowd here. >> Yeah, well one of the things, we spent a number of years making that stuff work, back when it was, you know, we're talkin' about gettin' Cinder, and then all the storage companies lined up with their various, do we support it, is it fully integrated, and then even further, does it actually work really well? So, same stuff that went through, for about a decade, in virtualization, we went through this in OpenStack, we actually said a couple years ago, some of the basic infrastructure stuff has gotten boring, so we don't need to talk about it anymore. Ironic, it's actually the non-virtualized environments, that's the project that they have here, we have a lot of people who are talking bare metal, who are talking containers, so that has shifted, an interesting one in the keynote is that you had the top level sponsors getting up there, Intel bringing around a lot of their ecosystem partners, talking about Edge, talking about the telecommunications, Red Hat, giving a recap of what they did last week at their summit, they've got a nice cadence, the last couple of years, they've done Red Hat Summit, and OpenStack Summit, back-to-back so that they can get that flow of information through, and then Mark Shuttleworth, who we'll have on a little bit later today, he came out puchin', you know, he started with some motherhood in Apple Pi about how Ubuntu is everywhere but then it was like, and we're going to be so much cheaper, and we're so much easier than the VMwares and Red Hats of the world, and there was a little push back from the community, that maybe that wasn't the right platform to do it. >> Yeah, I think the room got kind of cold, I mean, that's kind of a church in there, right, and everyone is an opensource believer and, this kind of invisible hand of capitalism (laughs) reached in and wrote on the wall and, you know, having written and left. But at the end of the day, right, somebody's got to pay for babies new shoes. I think that it was also very interesting seeing, at Red Hat Summit, which I covered on theCUBE, Red Hat's argument was fairly philosophical, and from first principles. Containers are Linux, therefore Red Hat, and that was logically laid out. Mark's, actually I loved Mark's, most of his speech, which was very practical, this, you know, Ubuntu's going to make both OpenStack and containers simpler, faster, quicker, and cheaper, so it was clearly benefits, and then, for the folks that don't know, then he put up a couple a crazy Eddy slides like, limited time offer, if you're here at the show, here's a deal that we've put together for ya, so that was a little bit unusual for a keynote. >> Yeah, and there are a lot of users here, and some of them'll hear that and they'll say: yeah, you know, I've used Red Hat there but, you can save me money that's awesome, let me find out some more about it. Alright, so, we've got three days of coverage here John, and we get to cover this really kind of broad ecosystem that we have here. You talked about what we don't discuss anymore, like the major lease was Queens, and it used to be, that was where I would study up and be like oh okay, we've got Hudson, and then we got, it was the letters of the alphabet, what's the next one going to be and what are the major features it's reached a certain maturity level that we're not talking the release anymore, it's more like the discussions we have in cloud, which is sometimes, here's some of the major things, and oh yeah, it just kind of wraps itself in. Deployments still, probably aren't nearly as easy as we'd like, Shuttleworth said two guys in under two weeks, that's awesome, but there's solutions we can put, stand up much faster than that now, two weeks is way better than some of the historical things we've done, but it changes quite a bit. So, telecommunications still a hot topic, Edge is something, you know what I think back, it was like, oh, all those NFE conversations we've had here, it's not just the SDN changes that are happening, but this is the Edge discussion for the Telcos, and something people were getting their arms around, so. >> It's pretty interesting to think of the cloud out on telephone poles, and in branch offices, in data centers, in closets basically or under desks almost. >> No self-driving cars on the keynote stage though? >> No, nothing that flashy this year. >> No, definitely not too flashy so, the foundation itself, it's interesting, we've heard rumors that maybe the show will change name, the foundation will not change names. So I want to give you last things, what're you looking for this week, what were you hearing from the community leading up to the show that you want to validate or poke at? >> Well, I'm going to look at real deployments, I'd like to see how standard we are, if we are, if an OpenStack deployment is standardized enough that the pool of talent is growing, and that if I hire people from outside my company who work with OpenStack, I know that they can work with my OpenStack, I think that's key for the continuation of this ecosystem. I want to look at the general energy and how people are deploying it, whether it does become really invisible and boring, but still important. Or do you end up running OpenShift on bare metal, which I, as an infrastructure person, I just can't see that the app platform should have to worry about all this infrastructure stuff, 'cause it's complicated, and so, I'll just be looking for the healthy productions and production deployments and see how that goes. >> Yeah, and I love, one of the things that they started many years ago was they have a super-user category, where they give an award, and I'm excited, we have actually have the Ontario Institute for Cancer Research is one of our guests on today, they won the 2018 super-user group, it's always awesome when you see, not only it's like, okay, CERN's here, and they're doing some really cool things looking for the Higgs boson, and all those kind of things but, you know, companies that are using technology to help them attack the battle against cancer, so, you know, you can't beat things like that. We've got the person from the keynote, Melvin, who was up on stage talking about the open lab, you know, community, ecosystem, definitely something that resonates, I know, one of the reasons I pulled you into this show in the last year is you're got a strong background there. >> Super impressed by all the community activity, this still feels like a real community, lots of pictures of people, lots of real, exhortations from stage to like, we who have been here for years know each other, please come meet us, so that's a real sign of also, a healthy community dynamic. >> Alright, so John first of all, I want to say, Happy Victoria Day, 'cause we are here in Vancouver, and we've got a lot going on here, it's a beautiful venue, hope you all join us for all of the coverage here, and I have to give a big shout out to the companies that allowed this to happen, we are independent media, but we can't survive without the funding of our sponsors so, first of all the OpenStack Foundation, helps get us here, and gives us this lovely location overlooking outside, but if it wasn't for the likes of our headline sponsor Red Hat as well as Canonical, Kontron, and Nuage Networks, we would not be able to bring you this content so, be sure to checkout thecube.net for all the coverage, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching theCUBE. 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