foreign [Music] my name is Savannah Peterson and I am very excited to be coming to you today from the cube in Palo Alto we're going to be talking about kubecon giving a little preview of the hype and what you might be able to expect in Detroit with the one and only co-founder and CEO of the cube and siliconangle John ferriere John hello how are you today thanks for hosting and doing the preview with me my goodness a pleasure I we got acquainted this time last year how do you think the ecosystem has changed are you excited well first of all I missed kubecon Valencia because I had covid I was so excited to be there this big trip plan and then couldn't make it but so much has gone on I mean we've been at every kubecon the cube was there at the beginning when openstack was still going on kubernetes just started came out of Google we were there having beers with Lou Tucker and a bunch of The Luminaries when it all kind of came together and then watch it year by year progress through and how it's changed the industry and mainly how open source has been really the wave behind it combining with the Linux foundation and then cncf and then open source movement and good kubernetes has been amazing and under it all containers has been the real driver and all this so you know Docker containers Docker was a well-funded company they had to Pivot and were restructured now they're pure open source so containers have gone Supernova on top of that kubernetes and with that's a complete ecosystem of opportunity to create the next operating system in in software development so to me kubecon is at the center of software software 2030 what do you want to call it super cloud it's that it's really action it's not where the old school is it's where the new school is excellent so what has you most excited this year what's the biggest change from this time last year and now well two things I'm looking at this year uh carefully both from an editorial lens and also from a sponsorship lenses where is the funding going on the sponsorships because again a very diverse ecosystem of Builders but also vendors so I'm going to see how that Dynamics going on but also on the software side a lot of white space going on in the stack or in the map if you will you know the run times you've got observability you got a lot of competition maybe projects might be growing some Rising some falling maybe merge together I'm going to see how that but there's a lot of white spaces developing so I'm curious to see what's new on that area and then service meshes is a big deal this year so I'm looking for what's going on so it's been kind of a I won't say cold war but kind of like uh you know where is this going to go and because it's a super important part of of the of the orchestration and managing containers and so be very interested to see how service mesh does istio and other versions out there have been around for a while so that and also the other controversy is the number of stars on GitHub a project may have so sometimes that carries a lot of weight but we're going to look at which ones are rising which ones are falling again um which ones are getting the most votes by the developers vote with their code yeah absolutely well we did definitely miss you down in Los Angeles but it will be great to be in Detroit what has you most excited do you think that we're going to see the number of people in person that we have in the past I know you've seen it since the beginning so I think this year is going to be explosive from that psychology angle because I think it was really weird because La was on they were a bold to make that move we're all there is first conference back it was a lot a lot of like badges don't touch me only handshakes fist pumps but it was at the beginning of the covid second wave right so it was kind of still not yet released where everyone's was not worried about it so I think it's in the past year in the past eight months I mean I've been places with no masks people have no masks Vegas other places so I think it's going to be a year where it will be a lot more people in person because the growth and the opportunities are so big it's going to drive a lot of people in person just like Amazon reinvent those yeah absolutely and as the most important and prominent event in the kubernetes space I think everyone's very excited to to get back together when we think about this space do you think there that anyone's the clear winner yet or do you think it's still a bit of a open territory in terms of the companies and Partnerships I think Red Hat has done a great job and they're you know I think they're going to see how well they can turn this into gold for them because they've positioned themselves very well open shift years ago was kind of waffling I won't say it in a bad way but like but once they got view on containers and kubernetes red has done an exceptional job in how they position their company being bought by ibms can be very interesting to see how that influences change so if Red Hat can stay red hat I think IBM will win I think customers that's one company I like the startups we're seeing companies like platform nine Rafi systems young companies coming out in the kubernetes as a service space because I think whoever can make kubernetes easier because I think that's the hard part right now even though that the show is called kubecon is a lot more than kubernetes I think the container layer what docker's doing has been exceptional that's the real action the question is how does that impact the kubernetes layers so kubernetes is not a done deal yet I think it hasn't really crossed the chasm yet it's certainly popular but not every company is adopting it so we're starting to see that we need to see more adoption of kubernetes seeing that happen it's going to decide who the winners are totally agree with that if you look at the data a lot of companies are and people are excited about kubernetes but they haven't taken the plunge to shifting over their stack or fully embracing it because of that complexity so I'm very curious to see what we learn this week about who those players might be moving forward how does it feel to be in Detroit when was the last time you were here I was there in 2007 was the last time I was in that town so uh we'll see what's like wow yeah but things have changed yeah the lions are good this year they've got great hockey goalies there so you know all right you've heard that sports fans let John know what you're thinking your Sports predictions for this season I love that who do you hope to get to meet while we're at the show I want to meet more end user customers we're gonna have Envoy again on the cube I think Red Hat was going to be a big sponsor this year they've been great um we're looking for end user project most looking for some editorial super cloud like um commentary because the cncf is kind of the developer Tech Community that's powering in my opinion this next wave of software development Cloud native devops is now Cloud native developers devops is kind of going away that's killed I.T in my opinion data and security Ops is the new kind of Ops the new it so it's good to see how devops turns into more of a software engineering meet supercloud so I think you're going to start to see the infrastructure become more programmable it's infrastructure as code so I think if anything I'm more excited to hear more stories about how infrastructure as code is now the new standard so if when that truly happens the super cloud model be kicking into high gear I love that let's you touched on it a little bit right there but I want to dig in a bit since you've been around since the beginning what is it that you appreciate or enjoy so much about the kubernetes community and the people around this I think there are authentic people and I think they're they're building they're also Progressive they're very diverse um they're open and inclusive they try stuff and um they can be critical but they're not jerks about it so when people try something um they're open-minded of a failure so it's a classic startup mentality I think that is embodied throughout the Linux Foundation but CNC in particular has to bridge the entrepreneurial and corporate Vibe so they've done an exceptional job doing that and that's what I like about this money making involved but there's also a lot of development and Innovation that comes out of it so the next big name and startup could come out of this community and that's what I hope to see coming out here is that next brand that no one's heard of that just comes out of nowhere and just takes a big position in the marketplace so that's going to be interesting to see hopefully we have on our stage there yeah that's the goal we're going to interview them all a year from now when we're sitting here again what do you hope to be able to say about this space or this event that we might not be able to say today I think it's going to be more of clarity around um the new modern software development techniques software next gen using AI more faster silicon chips you see Amazon with what they're doing the custom silicon more processing but I think Hardware matters we've been talking a lot about that I think I think it's we're going to shift from what's been innovative and what's changed I think I think if you look at what's been going on in the industry outside of crypto the infrastructure hasn't really changed much except for AWS what they've done so I'm expecting to see more Innovations at the physics level way down in the chips and then that lower end of the stack is going to be dominated by either one of the three clouds probably AWS and then the middle layer is going to be this where the abstraction is around making infrastructure as code really happen I think that's going to be Clarity coming out of this year next year we should have some visibility into the vertical applications and of the AI and machine learning absolutely digging in on that actually even more because I like what you're saying a lot what verticals do you think that kubernetes is going to impact the most looking even further out than say a year I mean I think that hot ones Healthcare fintech are obvious to get the most money they're spending I think they're the ones who are already kind of creating these super cloud models where they're actually changed over their their spending from capex to Opex and they're driving top line revenue as part of that so you're seeing companies that wants customers of the I.T vendors are now becoming the providers that's a big super cloud Trend we see the other verticals are going to be served by a lot of men in Surprise oil and gas you know all the classic versus Healthcare I mentioned that one those are the classic verticals retail is going to I think be massively huge as you get more into the internet of things that's truly internet based you're going to start to see a lot more Edge use cases so Telecom I think it's going to be completely disrupted by new brands so I think once that you see see how that plays out but all verticals are going to be disrupted just a casual statement to say yeah yeah no doubt in my mind that's great I'm personally really excited about the edge applications that are possible here and can't wait to see can't wait to see what happens next I'm curious as to your thoughts how based given your history here and we don't have to say number of years that you've been participating in in Cape Cod but give them your history what's the evolution looked like from that Community perspective when you were all just starting out having that first drink did you anticipate that we would be here with thousands of people in Detroit you know I knew the moment was happening around um 2017-2018 Dan Coney no longer with us he passed away I ran into him randomly in China and it was like what are you doing here he was with a bunch of Docker guys so they were already investing in so I knew that the cncf was a great Steward for this community because they were already doing the work Dan led a great team at that time and then they were they were they were kicking ass and they were just really setting the foundation they dig in they set the architecture perfectly so I knew that that was a moment that was going to be pretty powerful at the early days when we were talking about kubernetes before it even started we were always always talking about if this this could be the tcpip of of cloud then we could have kind of a de facto interoperability and Lou Tucker was working for Cisco at the time and we were called it interclouding inter-networking what that did during the the revolution Cloud yeah the revolution of the client server and PC Revolution was about connectivity and so tcpip was the disruptive enable that created massive amounts of wealth created a lot of companies created a whole generation of companies so I think this next inflection point is kind of happening right now I think kubernetes is one step of this abstraction layer but you start to see companies like snowflake who's built on AWS and then moved to multiple clouds Goldman Sachs Capital One you're going to see insurance companies so we believe that the rise of the super cloud is here that's going to be Cloud 3.0 that's software 3.0 it's software three what do you want to call it it's not yesterday's Cloud lift and shift and run a SAS application it's a true Enterprise digital digital transformation so that's that's kind of the trend that we see riding in now and so you know if you're not on that side of the street you're going to get washed away from that wave so it's going to be interesting to see how how it all plays out so it's fun to watch who's on the wrong side it is very fun I hope you all are listening to this really powerful advice from John he's dropping some serious knowledge bombs on us well holding the back for kubecon because we've got we got all the great guests coming on and that's where all the content comes from I mean the best part of the community is that they're sharing yeah absolutely so just for old time's sake and it's because it's how I met your fabulous team last year Define kubernetes for the audience kubernetes is like what someone said it was a magical Christmas I heard that was a well good explanation with that when I heard that one um you mean the technical definition or like the business definition or maybe both you can give us an interpretive dance if you'd like I mean the simplest way to describe kubernetes is an orchestration layer that orchestrates containers that are containing applications and it's a way to keep things running and runtime assembly of like the of the data so if you've got you're running containers you can containerize applications kubernetes gives you that capability to run applications at scale which feeds into uh the development uh cycle of the pipelining of apps so if you're writing applications and you want to scale up it's a fast way to stand up massive amounts of scale using containers and kubernetes so a variety of other things that are in the in the in the system too so that was pretty good there's a lot more under the hood but that's the oversimplified version I think that's what we were going for I think it's actually I mean it's harder to oversimplify it sometimes in this case it connects it connects well it's the connective tissue between all the container applications yes last question for you John we are here at the cube we're very excited to be headed to Detroit very soon what can people expect from the cube at coupon this year so we'll be broadcasting Wednesday Thursday and Friday we'll be there early I'll be there Monday and Tuesday we'll do our normal kind of hanging around getting some scoop on the on the ground floor you'll see us there Monday and Tuesday probably in the in the lounge too um come up and say hi to us um again we're looking for more stories this year we believe this is the year that you're going to hear a lot more storytelling coming out of this community as people get more proof points so come up to us share your email your your handle give us yours give us your story we'll publish it we think we think this is going to be the year that cloud native developers start showing the signs of the of the rise of the supercloud that's going to come out of this this community so you know if you got something to say you know we're open to share stories so we're here all that speaking of John how can people say hi to you and the team on Twitter at Furrier at siliconangle at thecube thecube.net siliconangle.com LinkedIn Dave vellantis they were open on all channels all right signal Instagram WhatsApp perfect well pick your channel we really hope to hear from you John thank you so much for joining us for this preview session and thank you for tuning in my name is Savannah Peterson here in Palo Alto at thecube Studios looking forward to Detroit we can't wait to hear your thoughts do let us know in the comments and let us know if you're headed to Michigan cheers [Music] thank you

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE here, in Palo Alto, California for a Cube Conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. This is a KubeCon preview conversation. We got a great guest here, in studio, Madhura Maskasky, Co-Founder and VP of Product, Head of Product at Platform9. Madhura, great to see you. Thank you for coming in and sharing this conversation about, this cube conversation about KubeCon, a Kubecon conversation. >> Thanks for having me. >> A light nice play on words there, a little word play, but the fun thing about theCUBE is, we were there at the beginning when OpenStack was kind of on its transition, Kubernetes was just starting. I remember talking to Lou Tucker back in, I think Seattle or some event and Craig McLuckie was still working at Google at the time. And Google was debating on putting the paper out and so much has happened. Being present at creation, you guys have been there too with Platform9. Present at creation of the Kubernetes wave was not obvious only a few insiders kind of got the big picture. We were one of 'em. We saw this as a big wave. Docker containers at that time was a unicorn funded company. Now they've went back to their roots a few years ago. I think four years ago, they went back and recapped and now they're all pure open source. Since then Docker containers and containers have really powered the Kubernetes wave. Combined with the amazing work of the CNCF and KubeCon which we've been covering every year. You saw the maturation, you saw the wave, the early days, end user projects being contributed. Like Envoy's been a huge success. And then the white spaces filling in on the map, you got observability, you've got run time, you got all the things, still some white spaces in there but it's really been great to watch this growth. So I have to ask you, what do you expect this year? You guys have some cutting edge technology. You got Arlo announced and a lot's going on Kubernetes this year. It's going mainstream. You're starting to see the traditional enterprises embrace and some are scaling faster than others, manage services, plethora of choices. What do you expect this year at KubeCon North America in Detroit? >> Yeah, so I think you summarize kind of that life cycle or lifeline of Kubernetes pretty well. I think I remember the times when, just at the very beginning of Kubernetes, after it was released we were sitting I think with box, box dot com and they were describing to us why they are early adopters of Kubernetes. And we were just sitting down taking notes trying to understand this new project and what value it adds, right? And then flash forward to today where there are Dilbert strips written about Kubernetes. That's how popular it has become. So, I think as that has happened, I think one of the things that's also happened is the enterprises that adopted it relatively early are running it at a massive scale or looking to run it at massive scale. And so I think at scale cloud-native is going to be the most important theme. At scale governance, at scale manageability are going to be top of the mind. And the third factor, I think that's going to be top of the mind is cost control at scale. >> Yeah, and one of the things that we've seen is that the incubated projects a lot more being incubated now and you got the combination of end user and company contributed open source. You guys are contributing RLO >> RLO. >> and open source. >> Yeah. >> That's been part of your game plan there. So you guys are no stranger open source. How do you see this year's momentum? Is it more white space being filled? What's new coming out of the block? What do you think is going to come out of this year? What's rising in terms of traction? What do you see emerging as more notable that might not have been there last year? >> Yeah, so I think it's all about filling that white space, some level of consolidation, et cetera. That's usually the trend in the cloud-native space. And I think it's going to continue to be on that and it's going to be tooling that lets users simplify their lives. Now that Kubernetes is part of your day to day. And so it is observability, et cetera, have always been top of the mind, but I think starting this year, et cetera it's going to be at the next level. Which is gone other times of just running your Prometheus at individual cluster level, just to take that as an example. Now you need a solution- >> Yep. >> that operates at this massive scale across different distributions and your edge locations. So, it's taking those same problems but taking them to that next order of management. >> I'm looking at my notes here and I see orchestration and service mesh, which Envoy does. And you're seeing other solutions come out as well like Linkerd and whatnot. Some are more popular than others. What areas do you see are most needed? If you could go in there and be program chair for a day and you've got a day job as VP of product at Platform9. So you kind of have to have that future view of the roadmap and looking back at where you've come, what would you want to prioritize if you could bring your VP of product skills to the open source and saying, hey, can I point out some needs here? What would you say? >> Yeah, I think just the more tooling that lets people make sense and reduce some of the chaos that this prowling ecosystem of cloud-native creates. Which is tooling, that is not adding more tooling that covers white space is great, but introducing abilities that let you better manage what you have today is probably absolutely top of the mind. And I think that's really not covered today in terms of tools that are around. >> You know, I've been watching the top five incubated projects in CNCF, Argo cracked the top five. I think they got close to 12,000 GitHub stars. They have a conference now, ArgoCon here in California. What is that about? >> Yeah. >> Why is that so popular? I mean, I know it's kind of about obviously workflows and dealing with good pipeline, but why is that so popular right now? >> I think it's very interesting and I think Argo's journey and it's just climbed up in terms of its Github stars for example. And I think it's because as these scale factors that we talk about on one end number of nodes and clusters growing, and on the other end number of sites you're managing grows. I think that CD or continuous deployment of applications it used to kind of be something that you want to get to, it's that north star, but most enterprises wouldn't quite be there. They would either think that they're not ready and it's not needed enough to get there. But now when you're operating at that level of scale and to still maintain consistency without sky rocketing your costs, in terms of ops people, CD almost becomes a necessity. You need some kind of manageable, predictable way of deploying apps without having to go out with new releases that are going out every six months or so you need to do that on a daily basis, even hourly basis. And that's why. >> Scales the theme again, >> Yep. >> back to scale. >> Yep. >> All right, final question. We'll wrap up this preview for KubeCon in Detroit. Whereas we start getting the lay of the land and the focus. If you had to kind of predict the psychology of the developer that's going to be attending in person and they're going to have a hybrid event. So, they will be not as good as being in person. Us, it's going to be the first time kind of post pandemic when I think everyone's going to be together in LA it was a weird time in the calendar and Valencia was the kind of the first international one but this is the first time in North America. So, we're expecting a big audience. >> Mhm. >> If you could predict or what's your view on the psychology of the attendee this year? Obviously pumped to be back. But what do you think they're going to be thinking about? what's on their mind? What are they going to be peaked on? What's the focus? Where will be the psychology? Where will be the mindset? What are people going to be looking for this year? If you had to make a prediction on what the attendees are going to be thinking about what would you say? >> Yeah. So there's always a curiosity in terms of what's new, what new cool tools that are coming out that's going to help address some of the gaps. What can I try out? That's always as I go back to my development roots, first in mind, but then very quickly it comes down to what's going to help me do my job easier, better, faster, at lower cost. And I think again, I keep going back to that theme of automation, declarative automation, automation at scale, governance at scale, these are going to be top of the mind for both developers and ops teams. >> We'll be there covering it like a blanket like we always do from day one, present at creation at KubeCon we are going to be covering again for the consecutive year in a row. We love the CNCF. We love what they do. We thank the developers this year, again continue going mainstream closer and closer to the front lines as the company is the application. As we say, here on theCUBE we'll be there bringing you all the signal. Thanks for coming in and sharing your thoughts on KubeCon 2022. >> Thank you for having me. >> Okay. I'm John Furrier here in theCUBE in Palo Alto, California. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. Day three of the cube coverage here at VMware VMware Explorer, not world 12 years. The Cube's been covering VMware is end user conference this year. It's called explore previously world. We got two great guests, friends of the cube friend, cube, alumni and cloud rod, Keith Townson, principal CTO advisor, air streaming his way into world this year in a big way. Congratulations. And course James Erhard principal technology, a at tan zoo cloud ARA. He's been in cloud game for a long time. We've known each other for a long, long time, even before cloud was cloud. So great to see you guys. Thanks for coming on. >>Ah, it's a pleasure, always happy to >>Be here. So day threes are kind of like riff. I'll throw out super cloud. You guys will, will trash it. We'll debate. It'll be controversial and say this damage done by the over rotation of developer experience. We'll defend Tansu, but really the end of the game is, is that guys, we have been on the cloud thing for a long time. We're we're totally into it. And we've been saying infrastructure is code as the end state. We want to get there. Right? DevOps and infrastructure is code has always been the, the, the underlying fire burning in, in all the innovation, but it's now getting legitimately enterprised it's adopted in, in, in large scale, Amazon web services. We saw that rise. It feels we're in another level right now. And I think we're looking at this new wave coming. And I gotta say, you know, the Broadcom thing has put like an electric shock syndrome into this ecosystem cuz they don't know what's gonna happen next. So as a result, everyone's kind of gotta spring in their step a little, whether it's nervous, energy or excitement around something happening, it's all cloud native. So, you know, as VMware's got such a great investment in cloud native, but yet multi cloud's the story. Right? So, so messaging's okay. So what's happening here? Like guys let's, let's break it down. You're on the show floor of the Airstream you're on the inside, but with the seeing the industry, James will start with you what's happening this year with cloud next level and VMware's future. >>Yeah, I think the big thing that is happening is that we are beginning to see the true separation of capacity delivery from capacity consumption in computing. And what I mean by that is the, the abstractions that sort of bled between the idea of a server and the idea of an application have sort of become separated much better. And I think Kubernetes is, is the strong evidence of that. But also all of the public cloud APIs are strong evidence of that. And VMware's APIs, frankly, before that we're strong evidence of that. So I think what's, what's starting to happen now then is, is developers have really kind of pulled very far away from, from anything other than saying, I need compute, I need network. I need storage. And so now you're seeing the technologies that say, well, we've figured out how to do that at a team level, like one team can automate an application to an environment, but another team will, you know, other teams, if I have hundreds of teams or, or thousands of applications, how do I handle that? And that's what the excitement I think is right >>Now. I mean the, the developer we talking, we're going on camera before you came on camera Keith around, you know, your contr statement around the developer experience. Now we, I mean, I believe that the cloud native development environment is doing extremely well right now. You talk to, you know, look around the industry. It's, it's at an all time high and relative to euphoria, you know, sit on the beach with sunglasses. You couldn't be better if you were a developer open source, booming, everything's driving to their doorstep, self service. They're at the center of the security conversation, which shift left. Yeah. There's some things there, but it's, it's a good time. If you're a developer now is VMware gonna be changing that and, and you know, are they gonna meet the developers where they are? Are they gonna try to bring something new? So these are conversations that are super important. Now VMware has a great install base and there's developers there too. So I think I see their point, but, but you have a take on this, Keith, what's your, what's your position on this? How do the developer experience core and tangential played? >>Yeah, we're I think we're doing a disservice to the industry and I think it's hurting and, or D I think I'm gonna stand by my statement. It's damaging the in industry to, to an extent VMware >>What's damaging to the >>Industry. The focusing over focusing on developer experience developer experience is super important, but we're focusing on developer experience the, the detriment of infrastructure, the infrastructure to deliver that developer experience across the industry isn't there. So we're asking VMware, who's a infrastructure company at core to meet the developer where the developer, the developer is at today with an infrastructure that's not ready to deliver on the promise. So when we're, when NetApp is coming out with cool innovations, like adding block storage to VMC on AWS, we collectively yawn. It's an amazing innovation, but we're focused on, well, what does that mean for the developer down the road? >>It should mean nothing because if it's infrastructure's code, it should just work, right. >>It should just work, but it doesn't. Okay. >>I see the damage there. The, >>The, when you're thinking, oh, well I should be able to just simply provide Dr. Service for my on-prem service to this new block level stores, because I can do that in a enterprise today. Non-cloud, we're not there. We're not at a point where we can just write code infrastructure code and that happens. VMware needs the latitude to do that work while doing stuff like innovating on tap and we're, you know, and then I think we, we, when buyers look at what we say, and we, we say VMware, isn't meeting developers where they're at, but they're doing the hard work of normalizing across clouds. I got off a conversation with a multi-cloud customer, John, the, the, the, the unicorn we all talk about. And at the end I tried to wrap up and he said, no, no, no way. I gotta talk about vRealize. Whoa, you're the first customer I heard here talk about vRealize and, and the importance of normalizing that underlay. And we just don't give these companies in this space, the right >>Latitude. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to rock a little bit what you're saying. So from my standpoint, generically speaking, okay. If I'm a, if the developers are key to the, to the cloud native role, which I, I would say they are, then if I'm a developer and I want, and I want infrastructure as code, I'm not under the hood, I'm not getting the weeds in which some lot people love to do. I wanna just make things work. So meet me where I'm at, which means self-service, I don't care about locking someone else should figure that problem out, but I'm gonna just accelerate my velocity, making sure it's secure. And I'm moving on being creative and doing my thing, building apps. Okay. That's the kind of the generic, generic statement. So what has to happen in your mind to >>Get there? Yeah. Someone, someone has to do the dirty work of making the world move as 400, still propagate the data center. They're still H P X running SAP, E there's still, you know, 75% of the world's transactions happen through SAP. And most of that happens on bare metal. Someone needs to do the plumbing to give that infrastructure's cold world. Yeah. Someone needs to say, okay, when I want to do Dr. Between my on premises edge solution and the public cloud, someone needs to make it invisible to the Kubernetes, the, the Kubernetes consuming that, that work isn't done. Yeah. It >>Is. It's an >>Opportunity. It's on paper. >>It's an opportunity though. It's not, I mean, we're not in a bad spot. So I mean, I think what you're getting at is that there's a lot of fix a lot of gaps. All right. I want Jay, I wanna bring you in, because we had a panel at super cloud event. Chris Hoff, you know, beaker was on here. Yeah. He's always snarky, but he's building, he's been building clouds lately. So he's been getting his, his hands dirty, rolling up his sleeves. The title of panel was originally called the innovators dilemma with a question, mark, you know, haha you know, innovators, dilemma, little goof on that. Cuz you know, there's challenges and trade offs like, like he's talking about, he says we should call it the integrator's dilemma because I think a lot of people are talking about, okay, it's not as seamless as it can be or should be in the Nirvana state. >>But there's a lot of integration going on. A lot of APIs are, are key to this API security. One of the most talked about things. I mean I interviewed six companies on API security in the past couple months. So yeah. I mean I never talked to anybody about API security before this year. Yeah. APIs are critical. So these key things of cloud are being attacked. And so there's more complexity as we're getting more successful. And so, so I think this is mucking up some of the conversations, what's your read on this to make the complexity go away. You guys have the, the chaos rain here, which I actually like that Dave does too, but you know, Andy Grove once said let chaos rain and then rain in the chaos. So we're in that reign in the chaos mode. Now what's your take on what Keith was saying around. Yeah. >>So I think that the one piece of the puzzle that's missing a little bit from Keith's narrative that I think is important is it's really not just infrastructure and developers. Right? It's it's there's in fact, and, and I, I wrote a blog post about this a long time ago, right? There's there's really sort of three layers of operations that come out of the cloud model in long term and that's applications and infrastructure at the bottom and in the middle is platform and services. And so I think one of the, this is where VMware is making its play right now is in terms of providing the platform and service capability that does that integration at a lower level works with VMs works with bare metal, works with the public cloud services that are available, makes it easy to access things like database services and messaging services and things along those lines. >>It makes it easy to turn code that you write into a service that can be consumed by other applications, but ultimately creates an in environment that begins to pull away from having to know, to write code about infrastructure. Right. And so infrastructure's, code's great. But if you have a right platform, you don't have to write code about infrastructure. You can actually D declare what basic needs of the application are. And then that platform will say, okay, well I will interpret that. And that's really, that's what Kubernetes strength is. Yeah. And that's what VMware's taking advantage of with what we're doing >>With. Yeah. I remember when we first Lou Tucker and I, and I think you might have been in the room during those OpenStack days and when Kubernetes was just starting and literally just happened, the paper was written, gonna go out and a couple companies formed around it. We said that could be the interoperability layer between clouds and our, our dream at that time was Hey. And, and we, we mentioned and Stratus in our, our super cloud, but the days of spanning clouds, a dream, we thought that now look at Kubernetes. Now it's kind of become that defacto rallying moment for, I won't say middleware, but this abstraction that we've been talking about allows for right once run anywhere. I think to me, that's not nowhere in the market today. Nobody has that. Nobody has anything that could write once, read one, write once and then run on multiple clouds. >>It's more true than ever. We had one customer that just was, was using AKs for a while and then decided to try the application on EKS. And they said it took them a couple of hours to, to get through the few issues they ran into. >>Yeah. I talked to a customer who who's going from, who went from VMC on AWS to Oracle cloud on Oracle cloud's VMware solution. And he raved about now he has a inherent backup Dr. For his O CVS solution because there's a shim between the two. And >>How did he do >>That? The, there there's a solution. And this is where the white space is. James talked about in the past exists. When, when I go to a conference like Cuban, the cube will be there in, in Detroit, in, in, in about 45 days or so. I talk to platform group at the platform group. That's doing the work that VMware red had hash Corp all should be doing. I shouldn't have to build that shim while we rave and, and talk about the power Kubernetes. That's great, but Kubernetes might get me 60 to 65% of their, for the platform right now there's groups of developers within that sit in between infrastructure and sit in between application development that all they do is build platforms. There's a lot of opportunity to build that platform. VMware announced tap one, 1.3. And the thing that I'm surprised, the one on Twitter is talking about is this API discovery piece. If you've ever had to use an API and you don't know how to integrate with it or whatever, and now it, it just magically happens. The marketing at the end of developing the application. Think if you're in you're, you're in a shop that develops hundreds of applications, there's thousands or tens of thousands of APIs that have to be documented. That's beating the developer where it's at and it's also infrastructure. >>Well guys, thanks for coming on the cube. I really appreciate we're on a time deadline, which we're gonna do more. We'll follow up on a power panel after VMware Explorer. Thanks for coming on the cube. Appreciate it. No problem. See you pleasure. Yeah. Okay. We'll be back with more live coverage. You, after this short break, stay with us.

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. There's the cubes coverage of VMware Explorer, 22 formerly world. We've been here since 2010 and world 2010 to now it's 2022. And it's VMware Explorer. We're here at the CEO, regular writer. Welcome back to the cube. Great to see you in person. >>Yeah. Great to be here in person, >>Dave and I are, are proud to say that we've been to 12 straight years of covering VMware's annual conference. And thank you. We've seen the change in the growth over time and you know, it's kind of, I won't say pinch me moment, but it's more of a moment of there's the VMware that's grown into the cloud after your famous deal with Andy jazzy in 2016, we've been watching what has been a real sea change and VMware since taking that legacy core business and straightening out the cloud strategy in 2016, and then since then an acceleration of, of cloud native, like direction under your leadership at VMware. Now you're the CEO take us through that because this is where we are right now. We are here at the pinnacle of VMware 2.0 or cloud native VMware, as you point out on your keynote, take us through that history real quick. Cuz I think it's important to know that you've been the architect of a lot of this change and it's it's working. >>Yeah, definitely. We are super excited because like I said, it's working, the history is pretty simple. I mean we tried running our own cloud cloud air. We cloud air didn't work so well. Right. And then at that time, customers really gave us strong feedback that the hybrid they wanted was a Amazon together. Right. And so that's what we went back and did and the andjay announcement, et cetera. And then subsequently as we were continue to build it out, I mean, once that happened, we were able to go work with the Satia and Microsoft and others to get the thing built out all over. Then the next question was okay, Hey, that's great for the workloads that are running on vSphere. What's the story for workloads that are gonna be cloud native and benefit a lot from being cloud native. So that's when we went the Tansu route and the Kubernetes route, we did a couple of acquisitions and then we started that started paying off now with the Tansu portfolio. And last but not the least is once customers have this distributed portfolio now, right. Increasingly everything is becoming multi-cloud. How do you manage and connect and secure. So that's what you start seeing that you saw the management announcement, networking and security and everything else is cooking. And you'll see more stuff there. >>Yeah know, we've been talking about super cloud. It's kinda like a multi-cloud on steroids kind a little bit different pivot of it. And we're seeing some use cases. >>No, no, it's, it's a very great, it's a, it's pretty close to what we talk about. >>Awesome. I mean, and we're seeing this kind of alignment in the industry. It's kind of open, but I have to ask you, when did you, you have the moment where you said multicloud is the game changer moment. When did you have, because you guys had hybrid, which is really early as well. When was the Raghu? When did you have the moment where you said, Hey, multicloud is what's happening. That's we're doubling down on that go. >>I mean, if you think about the evolution of the cloud players, right. Microsoft really started picking up around the 2018 timeframe. I mean, I'm talking about Azure, right? >>In a big way. >>Yeah. In a big way. Right. When that happened and then Google got really serious, it became pretty clear that this was gonna be looking more like the old database market than it looked like a single player cloud market. Right. Equally sticky, but very strong players all with lots of IP creation capability. So that's when we said, okay, from a supplier side, this is gonna become multi. And from a customer side that has always been their desire. Right. Which is, Hey, I don't want to get locked into anybody. I want to do multiple things. And the cloud vendors also started leveraging that OnPrem. Microsoft said, Hey, if you're a windows customer, your licensing is gonna be better off if you go to Azure. Right. Oracle did the same thing. So it just became very clear. >>I am, I have gone make you laugh. I always go back to the software mainframe because I, I think you were here. Right. I mean, you're, you're almost 20 years in. Yeah. And I, the reason I appreciate that is because, well, that's technically very challenging. How do you make virtualization overhead virtually non-existent how do you run any workload? Yeah. How do you recover from, I mean, that's was not trivial. Yeah. Okay. So what's the technical, you know, analog today, the real technical challenge. When you think about cross cloud services. >>Yeah. I mean, I think it's different for each of these layers, right? So as I was alluding to for management, I mean, you can go each one of them by themselves, there is one way of Mo doing multi-cloud, which is multiple clouds. Right. You could say, look, I'm gonna build a great product for AWS. And then I'm gonna build a great product for Azure. I'm gonna build a great product for Google. That's not what aria is. Aria is a true multi-cloud, which means it pulls data in from multiple places. Right? So there are two or three, there are three things that aria has done. That's I think is super interesting. One is they're not trying to take all the data and bring it in. They're trying to federate the data sources. And secondly, they're doing it in real time and they're able to construct this graph of a customer's cloud resources. >>Right. So to keep the graph constructed and pulling data, federating data, I think that's a very interesting concept. The second thing that, like I said is it's a real time because in the cloud, a container might come and go like that. Like that is a second technical challenge. The third it's not as much a technical challenge, but I really like what they have done for the interface they've used GraphQL. Right? So it's not about if you remember in the old world, people talk about single pan or glass, et cetera. No, this is nothing to do with pan or glass. This is a data model. That's a graph and a query language that's suited for that. So you can literally think of whatever you wanna write. You can write and express it in GraphQL and pull all sorts of management applications. You can say, Hey, I can look at cost. I can look at metrics. I can look at whatever it is. It's not five different types of applications. It's one, that's what I think had to do it at scale is the other problem. And, and >>The, the technical enable there is just it's good software. It's a protocol. It's >>No, no, it's, it's, it's it's software. It's a data model. And it's the Federation architecture that they've got, which is open. Right. You can pull in data from Datadog, just as well as from >>Pretty >>Much anything data from VR op we don't care. Right? >>Yeah. Yeah. So rego, I have to ask you, I'm glad you like the Supercloud cuz you know, we, we think multi-cloud still early, but coming fast. I mean, everyone has multiple clouds, but spanning this idea of spanning across has interesting sequences. Do you data, do you do computer both and a lot of good things happening. Kubernetes been containers, all that good stuff. Okay. How do you see the first rev of multi-cloud evolving? Like is it what happens? What's the sequence, what's the order of operations for a client standpoint? Customer standpoint of, of multicloud or Supercloud because we think we're seeing it as a refactoring of something like snowflake, they're a data base, they're a data warehouse on the cloud. They, they say data cloud they'd they like they'll tell us no, you, we're not a data. We're not a data warehouse. We're data cloud. Okay. You're a data warehouse refactored for the CapEx from Amazon and cooler, newer things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a behavior change. Yeah. But it's still a data warehouse. Yeah. How do you see this multi-cloud environment? Refactoring? Is there something that you see that might be different? That's the same if you know what I'm saying? Like what's what, what's the ne the new thing that's happening with multi-cloud, that's different than just saying I'm I'm doing SAS on the cloud. >>Yeah. So I would say, I would point to a, a couple of things that are different. Firstly, my, the answer depends on which category you are in. Like the category that snowflake is in is very different than Kubernetes or >>Something or Mongo DB, right? >>Yeah. Or Mongo DB. So, so it is not appropriate to talk about one multi-cloud approach across data and compute and so, so on and so forth. So I'll talk about the spaces that we play. Right. So step one, for most customers is two application architectures, right? The cloud native architecture and an enterprise native architecture and tying that together either through data or through networks or through et cetera. So that's where most of the customers are. Right. And then I would say step two is to bring these things together in a more, in a closer fashion and that's where we are going. And that is why you saw the cloud universal announcement and that's already, you've seen the Tansu announcement, et cetera. So it's really, the step one was two distinct clouds. That is just two separate islands. >>So the other thing that we did, that's really what my, the other thing that I'd like to get to your reaction on, cause this is great. You're like a masterclass in the cube here. Yeah, totally is. We see customers becoming super clouds because they're getting the benefit of, of VMware, AWS. And so if I'm like a media company or insurance company, if I have scale, if I continue to invest in, in cloud native development, I do all these things. I'm gonna have a da data scale advantage, possibly agile, which means I can build apps and functionality very quick for customers. I might become my own cloud within the vertical. Exactly. And so I could then service other people in the insurance vertical if I'm the insurance company with my technology and create a separate power curve that never existed before. Cause the CapEx is off the table, it's operating expense. Yep. That runs into the income statement. Yep. This is a fundamental business model shift and an advantage of this kind of scenario. >>And that's why I don't think snowflakes, >>What's your reaction to that? Cuz that's something that, that is not really, talk's highly nuanced and situational. But if Goldman Sachs builds the biggest cloud on the planet for financial service for their own benefit, why wouldn't they >>Exactly. >>And they're >>Gonna build it. They sort of hinted at it that when they were up on stage on AWS, right. That is just their first big step. I'm pretty sure over time they would be using other clouds. Think >>They already are on >>Prem. Yeah. On prem. Exactly. They're using VMware technology there. Right? I mean think about it, AWS. I don't know how many billions of dollars they're spending on AWS R and D Microsoft is doing the same thing. Google's doing the same thing we are doing. Not as much as them that you're doing oral chair. Yeah. If you are a CIO, you would be insane not to take advantage of all of this IP that's getting created and say, look, I'm just gonna bet on one. Doesn't make any sense. Right. So that's what you're seeing. And then >>I think >>The really smart companies, like you talked about would say, look, I will do something for my industry that uses these underlying clouds as the substrate, but encapsulates my IP and my operating model that I then offer to other >>Partners. Yeah. And their incentive for differentiation is scale. Yeah. And capability. And that's a super cloud. That's a, or would be say it environment. >>Yeah. But this is why this, >>It seems like the same >>Game, but >>This, I mean, I think it environment is different than >>Well, I mean it advantage to help the business, the old day service, you >>Said snowflake guys out the marketing guys. So you, >>You said snowflake data warehouse. See, I don't think it's in data warehouse. It's not, that's like saying, you >>Know, I, over >>VMware is a virtualization company or service now is a help desk tool. I, this is the change. Yes. That's occurring. Yes. And that you're enabling. So take the Goldman Sachs example. They're gonna run OnPrem. They're gonna use your infrastructure to do selfer. They're gonna build on AWS CapEx. They're gonna go across clouds and they're gonna need some multi-cloud services. And that's your opportunity. >>Exactly. That's that's really, when you, in the keynote, I talked about cloud universal. Right? So think of a future where we can go to a customer and say, Mr. Customer buy thousand scores, a hundred thousand cores, whatever capacity you can use it, any which way you want on any application platform. Right. And it could be OnPrem. It could be in the cloud, in the cloud of their choice in multiple clouds. And this thing can be fungible and they can tie it to the right services. If they like SageMaker they could tie it to Sage or Aurora. They could tie it to Aurora, cetera, et cetera. So I think that's really the foundation that we are setting. Well, I think, I >>Mean, you're building a cloud across clouds. I mean, that's the way I look at it. And, and that's why it's, to me, the, the DPU announcement, the project Monterey coming to fruition is so important. Yeah. Because if you don't have that, if you're not on that new Silicon curve yep. You're gonna be left behind. Oh, >>Absolutely. It allows us to build things that you would not otherwise be able to do, >>Not to pat ourselves on the back Ragu. But we, in what, 2013 day we said, feel >>Free. >>We, we said with Lou Tucker when OpenStack was crashing. Yeah. Yeah. And then Kubernetes was just a paper. We said, this could be the interoperability layer. Yeah. You got it. And you could have inter clouding cuz there was no clouding. I was gonna riff on inter networking. But if you remember inter networking during the OSI model, TCP and IP were hardened after the physical data link layer was taken care of. So that enabled an entire new industry that was open, open interconnect. Right. So we were saying inter clouding. So what you're kind of getting at with cross cloud is you're kind of creating this routing model if you will. Not necessarily routing, but like connection inter clouding, we called it. I think it's kinda a terrible name. >>What you said about Kubernetes is super critical. It is turning out to be the infrastructure API so long. It has been an infrastructure API for a certain cluster. Right. But if you think about what we said about VSE eight with VSE eight Kubernetes becomes the data center API. Now we sort of glossed over the point of the keynote, but you could do operations storage, anything that you can do on vSphere, you can do using a Kubernetes API. Yeah. And of course you can do all the containers in the Kubernetes clusters and et cetera, is what you could always do. Now you could do that on a VMware environment. OnPrem, you could do that on EKS. Now Kubernetes has become the standard programming model for infrastructure across. It >>Was the great equalizer. Yeah. You, we used to say Amazon turned the data center through an API. It turns, turns of like a lot of APIs and a lot of complexity. Right. And Kubernetes changed. >>Well, the role, the role of defacto standards played a lot into the T C P I P revolution before it became a standard standard. What the question Raghu, as you look at, we had submit on earlier, we had tutorial on as well. What's the disruptive enabler from a defacto. What in your mind, what should, because Kubernetes became kind of defacto, even though it was in the CNCF and in an open source open, it wasn't really standard standard. There's no like standards, body, but what de facto thing has to happen in your mind's eye around making inter clouding or connecting clouds in a, in a way that's gonna create extensibility and growth. What do you see as a de facto thing that the industry should rally around? Obviously Kubernetes is one, is there something else that you see that's important for in an open way that the industry can discuss and, and get behind? >>Yeah. I mean, there are things like identity, right? Which are pretty critical. There is connectivity and networking. So these are all things that the industry can rally around. Right. And that goes along with any modern application infrastructure. So I would say those are the building blocks that need to happen on the data side. Of course there are so many choices as well. So >>How about, you know, security? I think about, you know, when after stuck net, the, the whole industry said, Hey, we have to do a better job of collaborating. And then when you said identity, it just sort of struck me. But then a lot of people tried to sort of monetize private reporting and things like that. So you do you see a movement within the technology industry to do a better job of collaborating to, to solve the acute, you know, security problems? >>Yeah. I think the customer pressure and government pressure right. Causes that way. Yeah. Even now, even in our current universe, you see, there is a lot of behind the scenes collaboration amongst the security teams of all of the tech companies that is not widely seen or known. Right. For example, my CISO knows the AWS CSO or the Microsoft CSO and they all talk and they share the right information about vulnerability attacks and so on and so forth. So there's already a certain amount of collaboration that's happening and that'll only increase. Do, >>Do you, you know, I was somewhat surprised. I didn't hear more in your face about security would, is that just because you had such a strong multi-cloud message that you wanted to get, get across, cuz your security story is very strong and deep. When you get into the DPU side of things, the, you know, the separation of resources and the encryption and I'll end to end >>I'm well, we have a phenomenal security story. Yeah. Yeah. Tell security story and yes. I mean I'll need guilty to the fact that in the keynote you have yeah, yeah, sure time. But what we are doing with NSX and you will hear about some NSX projects as you, if you have time to go to some of the, the sessions. Yeah. There's one called project, not star. Another is called project Watchman or watch, I think it's called, we're all dealing with this. That is gonna strengthen the security story even more. Yeah. >>We think security and data is gonna be a big part of it. Right. As CEO, I have to ask you now that you're the CEO, first of all, I'd love to talk about product with you cuz you're yeah. Yeah. We just great conversation. We want to kind of read thet leaves and ask pointed questions cuz we're putting the puzzle together in real time here with the audience. But as CEO, now you have a lot of discussions around the business. You, the Broadcom thing happening, you got the rename here, you got multi-cloud all good stuff happening. Dave and I were chatting before we came on this morning around the marketplace, around financial valuations and EBIDA numbers. When you have so much strategic Goodwill and investment in the oven right now with the, with the investments in cloud native multi-year investments on a trajectory, you got economies of scale there. >>It's just now coming out to be harvest and more behind it. Yeah. As you come into the Broadcom and or the new world wave that's coming, how do you talk about that value? Cuz you can't really put a number on it yet because there's no customers on it. I mean some customers, but you can't probably some for form. It's not like sales numbers. Yeah. Yeah. How do you make the argument to the PE type folks out there? Like EBIDA and then all the strategic value. What's the, what's the conversation like if you can share any, I know it's obviously public company, all the things going down, but like how do you talk about strategic value to numbers folks? >>Yeah. I mean, we are not talking to PE guys at all. Right. I mean the only conversation we have is helping Broadcom with >>Yeah. But, but number people who are looking at the number, EBIDA kind of, >>Yeah. I mean, you'd be surprised if, for, for example, even with Broadcom, they look at the business holistically as what are the prospects of this business becoming a franchise that is durable and could drive a lot of value. Right. So that's how they look at it holistically. It's not a number driven. >>They do. They look at that. >>Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I think it's a misperception to say, Hey, it's a numbers driven conversation. It's a business driven conversation where, I mean, and Hawk's been public about it. He says, look, I look at businesses. Can they be leaders in their market? Yeah. Because leaders get, as we all know a disproportionate share of the economic value, is it a durable franchise that's gonna last 10 years or more, right. Obviously with technology changes in between, but 10 years or more >>Or 10, you got your internal, VMware talent customers and >>Partners. Yeah. Significant competitive advantage. So that's, that's really where the conversation starts and the numbers fall out of it. Got it. >>Okay. So I think >>There's a track record too. >>That culture >>That VMware has, you've always had an engineering culture. That's turned, you know, ideas and problems into products that, that have been very successful. >>Well, they had different engineering cultures. They're chips. You guys are software. Right. You guys know >>Software. Yeah. Mean they've been very successful with Broadcom, the standalone networking company since they took it over. Right. I mean, it's, there's a lot of amazing innovation going on there. >>Yeah. Not, not that I'm smiling. I want to kind of poke at this question question. I'll see if I get an answer out of you, when you talk to Hawk tan, does he feel like he bought a lot more than he thought or does he, did he, does he know it's all here? So >>The last two months, I mean, they've been going through a very deliberate process of digging into each business and certainly feels like he got a phenomenal asset base. Yeah. He said that to me even today after the keynote, right. Is the amazing amount of product capability that he's seeing in every one of our businesses. And that's been the constant frame. >>But congratulations on that. >>I've heard, I've heard Hawk talk about the shift to, to Mer merchant Silicon. Yeah. From custom Silicon. But I wanted to ask you when you look at things like AWS nitro yeah. And graviton and train and the advantage that AWS has with custom Silicon, you see Google and Microsoft sort of Alibaba following suit. Would it benefit you to have custom Silicon for, for DPU? I mean, I guess you, you know, to have a tighter integration or do you feel like with the relationships that you have that doesn't buy you anything? >>Yeah. I mean we have pretty strong relationships with in fact fantastic relationships with the Invidia and Intel and AMD >>Benon and AMD now. >>Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've been working with the Pendo team in their previous incarnations for years. Right, right. When they were at Cisco and then same thing with the, we know the Melanox team as well as the invi original teams and Intel is the collaboration right. From the get go of the company. So we don't feel a need for any of that. We think, I mean, it's clear for those cloud folks, right. They're going towards a vertical integration model and select portions of their stack, like you talked about, but there is always a room for horizontal integration model. Right. And that's what we are a part of. Right. So there'll be a number of DPU pro vendors. There'll be a number of CPU vendors. There'll be a number of other storage, et cetera, et cetera. And we think that is goodness in an alternative model compared to a vertically integr >>And yeah. What this trade offs, right. It's not one or the other, I mean I used to tell, talk to Al Shugar about this all the time. Right. I mean, if vertically integrated, there may be some cost advantages, but then you've got flexibility advantages. If you're using, you know, what the industry is building. Right. And those are the tradeoffs, so yeah. Yeah. >>Greg, what are you excited about right now? You got a lot going on obviously great event. Branding's good. Love the graphics. I was kind of nervous about the name changed. I likem world, but you know, that's, I'm kind of like it >>Doesn't readily roll off your phone. Yeah. >>I know. We, I had everyone miscue this morning already and said VMware Explorer. So >>You pay Laura fine. Yeah. >>Now, I >>Mean a quarter >>Curse jar, whatever I did wrong. I don't believe it. Only small mistake that's because the thing wasn't on. Okay. Anyway, what's on your plate. What's your, what's some of the milestones. Do you share for your employees, your customers and your partners out there that are watching that might wanna know what's next in the whole Broadcom VMware situation. Is there a timeline? Can you talk publicly about what? To what people can expect? >>Yeah, no, we, we talk all the time in the company about that. Right? Because even if there is no news, you need to talk about what is where we are. Right. Because this is such a big transaction and employees need to know where we are at every minute of the day. Right? Yeah. So, so we definitely talk about that. We definitely talk about that with customers too. And where we are is that the, all the processes are on track, right? There is a regulatory track going on. And like I alluded to a few minutes ago, Broadcom is doing what they call the discovery phase of the integration planning, where they learn about the business. And then once that is done, they'll figure out what the operating model is. What Broadcom is said publicly is that the acquisition will close in their fiscal 23, which starts in November of this year, runs through October of next year. >>So >>Anywhere window, okay. As to where it is in that window. >>All right, Raghu, thank you so much for taking valuable time out of your conference time here for the queue. I really appreciate Dave and I both appreciate your friendship. Congratulations on the success as CEO, cuz we've been following your trials and tribulations and endeavors for many years and it's been great to chat with you. >>Yeah. Yeah. It's been great to chat with you, not just today, but yeah. Over a period of time and you guys do great work with this, so >>Yeah. And you guys making, making all the right calls at VMware. All right. More coverage. I'm shot. Dave ante cube coverage day one of three days of world war cup here in Moscone west, the cube coverage of VMware Explorer, 22 be right back.

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley. HOLLOWAY ALTO, California It is a cube conversation. >> Welcome to this Special Cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California at the Cube Studios at the Cube headquarters. I'm John for the host, like you were a Dustin Kirkland product manager and Google friend of the Cuban. The community with Cooper Netease been on the Cube Cube alumni. Dustin. Welcome to the Cube conversation. >> Thanks. John's a beautiful studio. I've never been in the studio and on the show floor a few times, but this is This is fun. >> Great to have you on a great opportunity to chat about Cooper Netease yet of what you do out some product man's working Google. But really more importantly on this conversation is about the fifth anniversary, the birthday of Cuba Netease. Today we're celebrating the fifth birthday of Cooper Netease. Still, it's still a >> toddler, absolutely still growing. You think about how you know Lennox has been around for a long time. Open stack has been around these other big projects that have been around for, you know, going on decades and Lenox this case and Cooper nineties. It's going so fast, but It's only five years old, you know. >> You know, I remember Adam Open Stack event in Seattle many, many years ago. That was six years ago. Pubes on his 10th year. So many of these look backs moments. This is one of them. I was having a beer with Lou Tucker. J J Kiss Matic was like one of the first comes at the time didn't make it, But we were talking about open stagger like this Cooper Netease thing. This is really hot. This paper, this initiative this could really be the abstraction layer to kind of bring all this cloud Native wasn't part of the time, but it was like more of an open stack. Try and move up to stack. And it turned out it ended up happening. Cooper Netease then went on to change the landscape of what containers did. Dr. Got a lot of credit for pioneering that got the big VC funding became a unicorn, and then containers kind of went into a different direction because of Cooper duties. >> Very much so. I mean, the modernization of software infrastructure has been coming for a long time, and Cooper nutty sort of brings it all brings it all together at this point, but putting software into a container. We've been doing that different forest for for a lot of time, uh, for a long time, but But once you have a lot of containers, what do you do with that? Right? And that was the problem that Cooper Nettie solved so eloquently and has, you know, now for a couple of years, and it just keeps getting better. >> You know, you mentioned modernization. Let's talk about that because I think the modernization the theme is now pretty much prevalent in every vertical. I'll be in D. C. Next week for the Amazon Webster was public sector Summit, where modernization of governments and nations are being discussed. Education, modernization of it. We've seen it here. The media business that were participating in is about not where you store the code. It's how you code. How you build is a mindset shift. This has been the rial revelation around the Dev Ops Movement Infrastructures Code, now called Cloud Native. Share your thoughts on this modernization mindset because it really is how you build. >> Yeah, I think the cross pollination actually across industries and we even we see that even just in the word containers, right and all the imagery around shipping and shipping containers, we've applied these age old concepts that have been I don't have perfected but certainly optimized over decades of, actually centuries or millennia of moving things across water in containers. Right. But we apply that to software and boom. We have the step function difference in the way that we we manage and we orchestrated and administer code. That's one example of that cross pollination, and now you're talking about, like optimizing optimized governments or economies but being able to maybe then apply other concepts that we've come a long way in computer science do de bop set a good example? You know, applying Dev ops principles to non computer feels. Just think about that for a second. >> It's mind blowing. And if you think about also the step function you mentioned because I think this actually changed a lot of the entrepreneurial landscape as well and also has shaped open source and, you know, big news this this quarter is map are going to shut down due one of the biggest do players. Cloudera merge with Horton Works fired their CEO, the founder Michael. So has retired, Some say forced out. I don't think so. I think it's more of his time. I'm Rodel still there. Open source is a business model, you know. Can we be the red hat for her? Duped the red? Not really kind of the viable, but it's evolving. So open source has been impacted by this step function. There's a business impact. Talk about the dynamics with step function both on the business side and on how software's built specifically open source. >> You know, you and I have been around open source for a long, long time. I think it started when I was in college in the late nineties on then through my career at IBM. And it's It's interesting how on the fringe open source was for so long and such so so much of my BM career. And then early time spent onside it at Red Hat. It was it was something that was it was different, was weird. It was. It was very much fringe where the right uh, but now it's in mainstream and it's everywhere, and it's so mainstream that it's almost the defacto standard to just start with open source. But you know, there's some other news that's been happening lately that she didn't bring up. But it's a really touchy aspect of open source right now on that's on some of the licenses and how those licenses get applied by software, especially databases. When offered as a service in the cloud. That's one of the big problems. I think that that's that we're we're working within the open >> source, summarize the news and what it means. What's what's happening? What's the news and what's the really business? Our technical impact to the licensing? What's the issue? What's the core issue? >> Yeah, eso without taking judgment any any way, shape or form on this, the the the TL D are on. This is a number of open source database is most recently cockroach D. B. I have adopted a different licensing model that is nonstandard from an open source perspective. Uh, and from one perspective, they're they're adopting these different licensing models because other vendors can take that software and offered as a service, yes, and in some some cases, like Amazon like Sure, you said, uh, and offered as a as a service, uh, and maybe contribute. Maybe pay money to the smaller startup or the open source community behind it. But not necessarily. Uh, and it's in some ways is quite threatening to open source communities and open source companies on other cases, quite empowering. And it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out. The tension between open sourcing software and eventually making money off of it is something that we've we've seen for, you know, at least 25. >> And it continues to go on today, and this is, to me a real fascinating area that I think is going to be super important to keep an eye on because you want to encourage contribution and openness. Att the same time we look at the scale of just the Lenox foundations numbers. It's pretty massive in terms of now, the open source contribution. When you factor in even China and other nations, it's it's on exponential growth, right? So is it just open source? Is the model not necessarily a business? Yeah. So this is the big question. No one knows. >> I think we crossed that. And open source is the model. Um, and this is where me is a product manager. That's worked around open source. I've spent a lot of time thinking about how to create commercial offerings around open source. I spent 10 years at Economical, the first half of which, as an engineer, the second half of which, as a product manager around, uh, about building services, commercial services around 12 And I learned quite a few things that now apply absolutely to communities as well as to a number of open source startups. That that I've advised on DH kind of given them some perspective on maybe some successful and unsuccessful ways to monetize that that opens. >> Okay, so doesn't talk about Let's get back to Coburg. And so I think this is the next level Talk track is as Cooper Netease has established itself and landed in the industry and has adoption. It's now an expansion votes the land adopted expand. We've seen adoption. Now it's an expansion mode. Where does it go from here? Because you look at the tale signs things like service meshes server. Listen, you get some interesting trends that going to support this expansionary stage of uber netease. What is your view about the next expansion everyway what >> comes next? Yeah, I I think I think the next stage is really about democratizing communities for workloads that you know. It's quite obvious where when communities is the right answer at the scale of a Google or a Twitter or Netflix or, you know, some of these massive services that it is obviously and clearly the best answer to orchestrating containers. Now I think the next question is, how does that same thing that works at that massive scale Also worked for me as a developer at a very small scale helped me develop my software. My small team of five or 10 people. Do I need a coup? Burnett. He's If I'm ah five or 10 person startup. Well, I mean, not the original sort of borde vision of communities. It's probably overkill, but actually the tooling has really advanced, and we now >> have >> communities that makes sense on very small scales. You've got things like a three s from from Rancher. You've got micro Kates from from my colleagues at economical other ways of making shrinking communities down to something that fits, perhaps on devices perhaps at the edge, beyond just the traditional data center and into remote locations that need to deploy manage applications >> on the Cooper Netease clustering the some of the tech side. You know, we've seen some great tech trends as mentioned in Claudia Horton. Works and map Our Let's Take Claudia and Horton work. Remember back in the old days when it was booming? Oh, they were so proud to talk about their clusters. I stood up all these clusters and then I would ask them, Well, what do you doing with it? Well, we're storing data. I think so. That became kind of this use case where standing up the cluster was the use case and they're like, OK, now let's put some data in it. It's a question for you is Coburn. Eddie's a little bit different. I'm not seeing they were seeing real use cases. What are people standing up? Cuban is clusters for what specific Besides the same Besides saying I've done it. Yeah, What's the what's the main use case that you're seeing this that has real value? >> Yeah, actually, there's you just jog t mind of really funny memory. You know, back in those big data days, I was CEO of a startup. We were encrypting data, and we were helping encrypt healthcare data for health care companies and the number of health care companies that I worked with at that time who said they had a big data problem and they had all of I don't know, 33 terabytes worth of worth of data that they needed to encrypt. It was kind of humorous sometimes like, Is that really a big, big data problem? This fits on a single disc, you know, Uh, but yeah, I mean, it's interesting how >> that the hype of of the tech was preceding. The reality needs needs, says Cooper Nettie. So I have a Cuban Eddie's cluster for blank. Fill in the blank. What are people saying? >> Yeah, uh, it's It's largely about the modernization. So I need to modernize my infrastructure. I'm going to adopt the platform. That's probably not, er, the old er job, a Web WebSphere type platform or something like that. I'm investing in hardware investing in Software Middle, where I'm investing in people, and I want all of those things to line up with where industry is going from a software perspective, and that's where Cooper Nighties is sort of the cornerstone piece of that Lennox Of course, that's That's pretty well established >> canoes delivery in an integration piece of is that the pipeline in was, that was the fit on the low hanging fruit use cases of Cooper Netease just development >> process. Or it's the operations it's the operations of now got software that I need to deploy across multiple versions, perhaps multiple sites. Uh, I need to handle that upgrade ideally without downtime in a way that you said service mash in a way that meshes together makes sense. I've got a roll out new certificates I need to address the security, vulnerability, thes air, all the things that Cooper and I used to such a better job at then, what people were doing previously, which was a whole lot of four loops, shell strips and sshh pushing, uh, pushing tar balls around. Maybe Debs or rpm's around. That is what Cooper not he's actually really solves and does an elegant job of solving as just a starting point. And that's just the beginning and, you know, without getting ve injury here, you know, Anthros is the thing that we had at Google have built around Cooper Netease that brings it to enterprise >> here the other day did a tweet. I called Anthem. I just typing too fast. I got a lot of crap on Twitter for that mission. And those multi cloud has been a big part of where Cubans seems to fit. You mentioned some of the licensing changes. Cloud has been a great resource for a lot of the new Web scale applications from all kinds of companies. Now, with several issues seeing a lot more than capabilities, how do you see the next shift with data State coming in? Because God stateless date and you got state full data. Yeah, this has become a conversation point. >> Yeah, I think Kelsey Hightower has said it pretty eloquently, as he usually does around the sort of the serval ist movement and lets lets developers focus on just their code and literally just their code, perhaps even just their function in just their piece of code, without having to be an expert on all of the turtles all the way, all the way down. That's the big difference about service have having written a couple of those functions. I can I can really invest my time on the couple of 100 lines of code that matter and not choosing a destro choosing a cougar Nati is choosing, you know, all the stack underneath. I simply choose the platform where I'm gonna drop that that function, compile it, uploaded and then riff and rub. On that >> fifth anniversary, Cooper Netease were riffing on Cooper Netease. Dustin Circle here inside the Cube Cube Alumni you were recently at the coop con in overseas in Europe, Barcelona, Barcelona, great city. Keeps been there many times. Do was there covering for us. Couldn't make this trip, Unfortunately, had a couple daughter's graduating, so I didn't make the trip. Sorry, guys. Um, what was the summary? What was the takeaway? Was the big walk away from that event? What synthesized? The main stories were the most important stories being >> told. >> Big news, big observations. >> It was a huge event to start with. It was that fear of Barcelona. Um, didn't take over the whole space. But I've been there a number of times from Mobile World Congress. But, you know, this is this is cube con in the same building that hosts all of mobile world Congress. So I think 8,000 attendees was what we saw. It's quite celebratory. You know, I think we were doing some some pre fifth birthday bash celebrations, Key takeaways, hybrid hybrid, Cloud, multi Cloud. I think that's the world that we've evolved into. You know, there was a lot of tension. I think in the early days about must stay on. Prem must go to the cloud. Everything's there's gonna be a winner and a loser and everything's gonna go one direction or another. I think the chips have fallen, and it's pretty obvious now that the world will exist in a very hybrid, multi cloud state. Ultimately, there's gonna be some stuff on Prem that doesn't move. There's going to be some stuff better hosted in one arm or public clouds. That's the multi cloud aspect, Uh, and there will be stubborn stuff at the edge and remote locations and vehicles on oil rigs at restaurants and stores and >> so forth. What's most exciting from a trans statement? What do you what? What's what's getting you excited from what you see on the landscape out there? >> So the tying all of that to Cooper Netease, Cuban aunties, is the thing that basically normalizes all of that. You write your application put it in a container and expect to communities to be there to scale that toe. Operate that top grade that to migrate that over time. From that perspective, Cooper nineties has really ticked, ticked all the boxes, and you've got a lot of choices now about which companies here, you're going to use it and where >> beyond communities, a lot of variety of projects coop flow, you got service messes out there a lot of difference. Project. What's What's a dark horse? What's something that sets out there that people should be paying attention to? That you see emerging? That's notable. That should be paying attention. To >> think is a combination of two things. One is pretty obvious, and that's a ML is coming like a freight train and is sort of the next layer of excitement. I think after Cooper, Netease becomes boring, which hopefully if we've done our jobs well, that communities layer gets settled and we'll evolve. But the sort of the hockey stick hopefully settles down and it becomes something super stable. Uh, the application of machine learning to create artificial intelligence conclusions, trends from things that is sort of the next big trend on then I would say another one If you really want the dark horse. I think it's around communications. And I think it's around the difference in the way that we communicate with one another across all forms of media voice, video chat, writing, how we interact with people, how we interact with our our tools with our software and in fact, how our software in Iraq's with us in our software acts with with other software that communications industry is, it's ripe for some pretty radical disruption. And you know some of the organizations and they're doing that. It's early early days on those >> changes. Final point you mentioned earlier in our conversation here about how Dev Ops is influencing impacting non tech and computer science. Really? What did you mean by that? >> Uh, well, I think you brought up unexpectedly and that that you were looking at the way Uh, some other industries are changing, and I think that cross pollination is actually quite quite powerful when you take and apply a skill and expertise you have outside of your industry. But it adds something new and interesting, too, to your professional environment. That's where you get these provocative operations. He's really creative, innovative things that you know. No one really saw it coming. >> Dave Ops principles apply to other disciplines. Yeah, agility. That's that's pointing down waterfall based processes. That's >> one phenomenal example. Imagine that for governments, right to remove some of the like the pain that you and I know. I've got to go and renew my license. My birthday's coming up. I gotta go to renew my driver's license. You know much. I'm dreading going to the the DMV Root >> Canal driver's license on the same. Exactly >> how waterfall is that experience. And could we could we beam or Mohr Agile More Dev Autopsy and some of our government across >> the U. S. Government's procurement practices airbase upon 1990 standards they still want Request a manual, a physical manual for every product violent? Who does that? >> I know that there are organizations trying to apply some open source principles to government. But I mean, think about, you know, just democracy and how being a little bit more open and transparent in the way that we are in open source code, the ability to accept patches. I have a side project, a passion for brewing beer and I love applying open source practices to the industry of brewing. And that's an example of where use professional work, Tio. Compliment a hobby. >> All right, we got to bring some cubic private label, some Q beer. >> If you like sour beer, I'm in the sour beer. >> That's okay. We like to get the pus for us. Final question for you. Five years from now, Cooper needs to be 10 years old. What's the world gonna look like when we wake up five years from now with two Cuban aunties? >> Yeah, I think, uh, I don't think we're struggling with the Cooper nutties. Uh, the community's layer. At that point, I think that's settled science, inasmuch as Lennox is pretty settled. Science, Yes, there's a release, and it comes out with incremental features and bug fixes. I think Cuban aunties is settled. Science management of of those containers is pretty well settled. Uh, five years from now, I think we end up with software, some software that that's writing software. And I don't quite mean that in the way That sounds scary, uh, and that we're eliminating developers, but I think we're creating Mohr powerful, more robust software that actually creates that that software and that's all built on top of the really strong, robust systems we have underneath >> automation to take the heavy lifting. But the human creation still keeping one of the >> humans Aaron the look it's were We're many decades away from humans being out of the loop on creative processes. >> Dustin Kirkland, he a product manager of Google Uh, Cooper Netease guru also keep alumni here in the studio talking about the coup. Burnett. He's 50 year anniversary. Of course, the kid was president creation during the beginning of the wave of communities. We love the trend we love Cloud would left home a tec. I'm Sean for here in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching.

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back everyone, we are live here in Seattle. It's theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, Cloud Native Con, a part of CNCF, Cloud Native Computing Foundation, the rise of Kubernetes, this is what the show is all about. Three days of wall to wall coverage. We've been there from the beginning covering this KubeCon effort from the beginning. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, we're here to analyze and break down the event with our guest analyst for the segment, Steve Herrod, CUBE alumni, he was there the first day we ever did theCUBE in 2010. He's been a good friend of theCUBE. Now he's a venture capitalist, managing director at General Catalyst, a premiere VC in the industry. Steve, great to see you. >> Good to be here. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Feels like the early days of some of the other conferences, too, doesn't it? >> It feels like AWS, you know seven/eight years ago where it tips over, there's a tipping point. We see that doubling, so you know, it's kind of that tipping point where there's more demand for theCUBE and we can fill it so there's great content but it's a bigger picture, right? And I want to break through that, I want to get your thoughts and let's have a shared conversation around what's really going on here. You're talking about a disruption in the industry of cloud computing. You got Amazon, just a freight train just taking all the beach, the waves coming in and this is an opportunity, this is my opinion, for the industry to kind of say, hey, it's a multi cloud world so you're not going to take all of it. You got Google, you got Microsoft, you got start ups. This is a way to create an opensource way to fill the gap. Your thoughts? You agree? >> I totally agree and I think what's interesting, this conference does not have a corporate, at least an explicit corporate sponsor. It has four or five that are all trying to have their play in it. Microsoft's not one of them, which is sort of interesting. But it was, I think, a very bold thing this year to have this big of a venue and invite this many people and then hope that you're going to get the sponsorships and all the other stuff that follows. >> In Seattle. >> In Seattle. Yeah, our weather is a little bit-- >> It's very meta. (laughing) >> Interesting. But, just to your point, I do think this is really interesting because it is more open than a lot of these conferences where people are coming together. Both open source but also so much focus on how do you do functions in a way that works across places, how do you service meshes. Like everything is, it's both good and bad because there's so many choices that people are being seen right now. >> You were the CTO of VMware, Stu you worked in the CTO office at EMC back in the day, you're seeing a systems kind of vibe going on in cloud and you got application renaissance, kind of almost like the app server days, think WebSphere or whatever, that movement in the 90's and 2000's, that kind of grew quickly, all kind of being modernized. So you have cloud scale. >> Mm-hmm. >> AI has been around for a long time but because of the cloud, there's a renaissance. Video's been around for a long time but because of the cloud, things like theCUBE is happening. So the cloud is enabling a rebirth of a lot of things. >> Mm-hmm. >> And enabling a lot of new things, how do you guys view that systems view, application renaissance? Jassy talks about a reinvent as a new kind of persona developing. >> Mm-hmm. >> As a buyer and IT investments are changing, you're making start up investments, it's crazy. >> Yep. >> What do you think? >> Yeah, so first of all John, I like what you're saying about that systems view because too often we would kind of focus on a specific tool. So virtualization was great, but, you know, big thing, I took a bunch of servers and made it smaller servers but I took the same old application and I shoved it in there, and I left it running for another five or 10 years when I probably should have modernized it. Today, you know we just had Cheryl on talking about the ecosystem and customers and what I want to focus on is how the users get value. What are building on top of this? >> Right. >> Not the next cool thing to build, but how do I run my business? How do I do cool things with genomics? How do I improve healthcare? And in many ways we're seeing some of these top down things. I mean what's gotten me so excited about things like serverless and been really poking and teasing at how that fits in with this ecosystem is it's not just about a way to kind of turn the crank on making things a little bit more efficient or, you know, I can manage more machines with fewer people, but you know it moves up things and for someone like myself, a networking guy with an infrastructure background? >> Right. >> It's a little out of my comfort zone and that's okay. You know we talked to Lou Tucker, Lou's really excited about where AI's going and what's there, so I think we're in a real renaissance here and it's a big inflection point. >> Well I think to your point, what's interesting, whenever I do a teacher course to a college or when I'm talking to start ups or even in the old days it's really easy to forget that infrastructure is not a thing in it's own right. It's solely there to enable applications and to enable other things and so whenever you get really deep in the weeds on this is a new security model for this type of container or this, it's important and you're thinking about the best way to do it but, really you're right, you have to abstract it out to can I ship value faster? Can I save customers money? Can I do something safer? You really have to think about it in that context. And there's so much activity here you have to really make sure you're thinking about where it all fits together. >> And you know, the computer science conversations changes, too. The nature of what is computer science is evolving. I want to get to that in the next kind of discussion point but I want to just, Steve, ask you, you were on the VMware side when VMware kind of entered in with virtualization. It was a desktop, it was an app, it was like you loaded it on a machine and then that ended up transforming a massive industry and so a lot of people compare what VMware did in it's growth and it's impact but saying the cloud has got certainly more orders of magnitude, you mentioned security. >> Mm-hmm. >> Where's the VMware moment in this cloud transformation impact? Your thoughts there, just because you've been on both sides, one as a driver, CTO at VMware and now as an investor. Where do you see cloud-- >> Yeah, I kind of thought of it as two different angles. One is, appealing to developers and then that taking you all the way through operations which is, I mean that is, dev ops is sort of looking at that. VMware's first product was a workstation product that made developers have a bunch of environments right in front of them and we always had a vision for getting into the operations center but we knew we had to kind of come up through that path and I think likewise, a lot of this tooling that we see here is developer first and it's them saying, "I like this tool "and I can make my job be more enjoyable this way." But what you're really seeing, especially at this one is, how do you start in the developer tools and then not be detested by developers but then actually be paid for it by the operations side. So if you look at the type of vendors that are here? You start having venture capitalists here. You have a few people wearing suits here. It is about making this more enterprisey, more production ready and that's kind of the natural progression of any major impact like this. >> And Heptio, certainly Stu was reporting earlier, the number has been better than the filing of VMware. You know, a half a billion dollar acquisition for talent and a position in the marketplace. There's liquidity so there's investment opportunities. We talked to Jerry Chan about this at AWS, I want to get your thoughts, how is the investment thesis going on because what are you investing in? The notion of a stack, has kind of transformed into Lego blocks and services. >> Yep. >> So the notion of a stack is kind of changing although I've heard people say the, "Kubernetes stack." I'm like, well, what does that mean? (laughing) >> Which one? Yeah. >> So there's a lot of kind of stack derivatives. >> Mm-hmm. >> But how do you invest in this? What are you looking for? Where is the value? >> Yep. >> Where are sniffing out the deals? Where's the white spaces? And where should entrepreneurs go? >> Yeah, and I have several companies presenting here so I've certainly done some investments around this space, but I focus on a few things very specifically. I've been around this a little while. I really like to think about not tools that go to the new, hot new companies. I really try to think about what is more mainstream company going to adopt? And that usually means a few things. It has to have enterprise capabilities. It has to fit into the rest of the things. But I look at like how are you going to digest this with your other tools and the other processes that you have in place? If it's a security solution, I look at, I don't want really something that only protects the brave new world, I want it to fit in somehow with security policies and other things that are happening. >> So mainstream adoption? IT kind of impact? >> Yeah, just like a tool that actually works across environments and lets you go from here to there. You all have talked to Illumio several times? >> Yeah. >> They're trying to do micro segmentation for physical machines all the way through containers. The other thing I'm keeping a close eye on is, this is chaos, in terms of the number of start ups doing very specific point solutions and you have to really think about how does that grow into a big enough chunk of a budget or a big enough problem. So every single time I make an investment, I ask how does this do something 10 times better than something else and is that important to the company? And that's really hard to answer sometimes. >> Steve, and what's your take on the kind of opensource, open core, business model today? To be honest, I go around, I talked to some of the founders there, and everybody wants to contribute to opensource but maybe I don't want to build a business around it, because actually monetizing that is really tough. Is it just, I look to get acquired by one of the big players here? Or can I actually build a business with opensource at it's core? >> That's literally the billion dollar question. >> Yeah. >> But I do think, like on the positive side, the number of exits or big things recently with Magento, with Cloudera doing great, with, obviously, Red Hat, but we've seen, and Neilsoft, like a lot of big acquisitions and some good IPOs. But on the flip side, you definitely have to think about it differently now. There's a growing license that is very careful about allowing clouds to host your opensource project without contributing back. Hopefully that'll allow this hosted model to play out. I personally, I certainly look to opensource. You can see what's going on from traction but when you see it as a great lead generation engine which it often is for folks, I think that's a really healthy way to avoid spending a bunch of marketing money. >> Yeah, it's been fun. A lot of different shows we go to. Love your analysis, thanks for coming on, appreciate it. Just in general, as not a VC, but as a tech person and in the industry, I want to ask you and Stu what wave are we on? Obviously Kubernetes is now kind of front and center but we've still got cloud native. Is it the cloud? You got IoT and Amazon ARM, but we saw a lot of conversations around Edge. They had some interesting announcements around satellite telemetry coming in to regions. So you got Google, you got Microsoft, you got the big players. Is it the rich get richer? Is there going to be a new second tier? Cloud service provider? Where is this going? How is it going to reshape the industry? I mean, just big picture, what's your thoughts? >> Well, this is literally what I get paid to do is figure out where things are headed. I'd say, just at a top level, this is a super fun time to be in this lower level of the stack. You mentioned already AI gets, sort of AI washing goes on a lot right now but the very core of it is literally changing every application in interesting ways. And for me, I was a former hardware designer. The fact that you can now build and have really cool new hardware that's accelerating this stuff is really exciting. You saw Amazon's announcements, not only an ARM based server but Inferentia chips. Google has been doing this with TPUs-- >> Hundred gig networking in there, like, you know, high speed-- >> It is impressive. >> Cluster configurations, it's amazing stuff. >> So I love the fact that we can actually have very big innovation at each stage of the stack and it's because the combination of every company becoming an app, digital company coupled with the power of AI to transform things means you need dev ops to faster, you need these platforms that let you do more self service. And then I sprinkle on top of that is just the ridiculous demand for high quality engineers and if you don't give them an environment where they feel productive, they're just not going to stay at your company. And so all the mix comes together. I don't think they're going to be, there'll be some giant companies that already are, but I think the ability to create a new company that becomes large quickly or becomes small quickly if you screw up is bigger than ever. >> Yeah, I think it's total acceleration. >> Everything's faster. >> Values accelerated but it's also failure, too, right? >> Exactly, everything is accelerated. >> You have an option to abandon in you NPV calculations and IRRS (laughing) in your portfolio. >> Exactly, no it's-- >> The word pivot comes to mind. >> Everything is faster, that's the right way to think about it. >> Stu what's your take on this? >> Yeah, so we're at an interesting point in the industry. It's a bit of a paradox. On the one hand, the challenge of our time, we've been talking on theCUBE since the early days, John, is it's about distributed architectures and we're decomposing all of the pieces. Even Kubernetes itself, we're going to talk about how it's decomposing. On the other hand, everything is consolidating. >> That's right. >> I've seen more vertical stack integration from the chip and hardware level all the way through. You see Apple, Microsoft, Google-- >> That's right. >> And Amazon, all have chips companies and are going really interesting stuff there but it is such a complex individual. >> It is. >> That no one company can do it all, so there is opportunity for people to build on top of that. We have new marketplaces, we have new ways of doing it so it's, yes, there's going to be some really big winners and we have seen changes but there are still opportunities and yeah, John, keeps us busy always. >> Well here's my take on it, I want to get you guys' reaction to my view on this. So obviously we're in the media business, we're disrupting media with theCUBE so we look at the market and it's kind of matched the music industry. The power curve, the power law is very flat and straight and then a very long tail, with the head of the power law is the big players. But then when media came out, it kind of created a fatter tail and a bigger torso. I think that I see in the cloud, I see the rich getting richer. Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Alibaba, and maybe a couple players underneath there, IBM, Oracle, those big guys. And then it's going to be a second tier of cloud service providers. Someone who's going to package all these awesome sets of features in the long tail so you're going to start to see a growth because the big guys cannot be winning all the mid range business. I think, you're right, I think there's going to be a lot of solutions that are just exceptional. >> Mm-hmm. >> And I think the scale of the cloud is going to create an opportunity for new kinds of service providers. Someone who says, hey, you know what? I'm going to package this differently. I'm going to assemble-- >> I think so. >> A cloud solution, on either one of all of the clouds. Why wouldn't I use the accelerated Amazon, or the power of Google? >> I think that's well thought and I do think, we've talked about this for a while too, but I do believe there's going to be specialization by industry where you have certain algorithms and data that's unique to it, by geography. There's still going to be sovereignty issues. Even by just what type of things am I trying to build. So I do think simultaneously there's commonality on the platform but that allows you to do specialization and to really serve a specific industry quite well. >> And machine learning is a great specialty thing. The metadata to power machine learning. >> So Steve, do you have final questions you want to ask us before we run out of time? >> Well I would just say, you see a lot of these conferences. I actually like to show up at these and say, what in point time does this look like the AWS reinvent. For me, what point in time does this look like maybe the VMware event in my case, but I don't know, it just feels to me like we've jumped over, we're sort of at that point where this is going to keep going and growing. >> Yeah, how do we make sure we've hit the inflection point but not jumped the charts? >> Yeah, I mean, do you think we are here? And how does this feel versus some of the other events that you spend time on? >> Yeah, I mean, John you want me to? >> I mean, you know. >> So my take, first of all, is there's a little worry and there's some concern of us that have been through this before, is like, wait, did we just create another OpenStack? >> Yeah. >> And my resounding answer so far, is no. While there might be 35 main projects here each one of those was started for a reason. They stand on their alone, they have, you know we've got Matt Klein on from Lyft, as our next guest here. >> Yeah. >> You know, Envoy, if Kubernetes didn't exist, Envoy would probably still exist. So there's a lot of these pieces that are good but it is complicated. >> It is very complicated. >> And there's all these pieces but that's a real opportunity for a lot of companies. The SIs, the big platforms, to be able to help put this together. >> Yeah. >> And the customers are thrilled with what is going on. >> That's well stated, yeah. >> There's interesting things there. Right, this ecosystem, the only ecosystem I've seen probably grow faster is the Amazon one so it is doing well and we've been looking for years as to like a nice, vendor independent ecosystem. >> Right. >> To grow because, you know, there's some of the ones in the storage industry and things like that. >> Yeah. >> All died. >> That's right. >> So there are vendor shows and this, you know the Lennox Foundation's done a nice job. >> Right, I agree. >> With it and it's been-- >> That's the unique part here for me. >> We bet early on it, so. >> Well we bet early on it, it was a good bet, but here's the challenge that they have; they have lightning in a bottle and it's definitely arrived so there's a little bit of jump to shark moment. You got some things happening that's kind of glam oriented but absolutely it's arrived. I think the challenge that they have is opensource community is a core constituency of this event, and the Lennox Foundation is structured to be kind of a very tight top, thin at the top period of management and the scale of this event and this movement is too big for them, I think, to handle. I think they either have to have sub brand or start segmenting out because if they lose the opensource community, the they're going to lose the vibe of the event and that's the core of what it is. >> Right. >> The downstream benefits, kind of a an opensource parlance, is the IT impact and the developer impact. And inherent in that is business benefits so you're going to start to see more suits coming in and you're going to start to have a melting pot and that is a risky proposition if they don't get out front on that. So yes, it's arrived, but there's so much time they're going to be doing it just to the projects. >> Right. >> Just to the innovation. >> You're going to have to wear these next time that you see them. >> There's a money making aspect of it, yes. >> Right. >> The money making aspect of this is huge. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's what we're watching. >> Yep. >> As the business people come in and say, look at this, this is billions and billions of dollars. >> Yeah. >> This is-- >> Maybe just one more thought on that. The notion is really important, this is a distributed, not really owned by one person, one company, and there's the chaos that comes with that and so how do you do the balance between these two things? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Its like when, I know, when Amazon announced their Blockchain thing, it's like, Blockchain's supposed to be distributed. Now we have a company running it in one cloud. It's like that balance between the push and pull of centralization that we're going to see. >> Well have to put some computer science architecture together and put an operating system around it. >> There ya go. >> We'll have some dev ops. Steve, thanks for coming on theCUBE, great to have you on. >> Good to see you guys. >> Well it's great to see you. A legend in the industry, Steve Herrod, CUBE alumni from 2010, been on every year. Now a venture capitalist, former CTO of VMware. With Stu Miniman, I'm John Furrier, analyst of KubeCon, stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

(techy music) >> Hello, everyone, I'm John Furrier, here in theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto for a special CUBE Conversation. Breaking news here in Silicon Valley and at Cisco Systems. News around Cisco partnering with Amazon Web Services, and here to talk about it is Fabio Gori, senior director of cloud solutions marketing at Cisco. Good to see you, welcome to theCUBE. >> Hello, John, how are you doing? >> So, big news, Cisco and AWS collaborate to accelerate innovation. A first kind of its kind of announcement. Love the pioneering aspect of this announcement. Obviously Amazon Web Services is the leading cloud provider who's been into hybrid cloud lately because they've been talking about that as their connection point into the enterprise. You guys are the leader in the enterprise at networking and other services. I don't even know how much market share you have these days, but you guys pretty much own the enterprise. Everyone kind of knows that. This deal with Amazon, you guys are doing the first hybrid Kubernetes on AWS. Talk about the announcement, what's the, why is this so important to Cisco? >> So, you named it, the solution name is actually a bit of a mouthful, but you mentioned the three keywords: is hybrid, is Kubernetes, is AWS, and this is the first solution of this kind that really integrates these two environments in a way that will be exceptionally beneficial for organizations that want to accelerate their innovation path, which ultimately means delivering applications faster without having to worry about constraints in terms of where to develop, where to deploy. This will really set them free to take their decisions. >> You know, one of the things we've been speculating on theCUBE a lot around cloud... There's been tons of debates, hybrid cloud, private cloud, multi-cloud, public cloud. All this stuff's been going on. One thing that's been very clear is the public cloud has demonstrated speed, agility, faster time to value, and for app developers that's been great. Cloud native, if you're born in the cloud it's just a great environment. If you've been on-premise and you had that legacy and/or existing pre-cloud environment, that trend has been more toward cloud operations, so not so much everything's moving to the cloud, although, you know, Andy Jassy would love to see everything move to Amazon, and that's his goal, but stuff stays on-prem, it's going to be for a while, but the cloud operations on-premise is essentially cloud but on-premise. So, that's this new hybrid dynamic. This is what enterprises have been re-imagining their infrastructure on. This is where a lot of the energy has been. How does that, that your solution for Kubernetes with Amazon, solve that problem? Does it help customers get to the cloud faster? Is it an operating model? Explain the nuance of how customers-- >> It's fundamentally all of that. If you think about it, and your introduction is spot-on, is customers really want to use the public cloud, right? The services in the public cloud, why? Because it gives them speed. I think that's a big change that we've seen since, I would say a few quarters, right, where people started really trading off speed and innovation for cost, right? Originally it was like, "I want to shut down my data center. "The cloud is going to be cheaper." Well, it's not about cheaper, it's faster, and people want to develop new digital experiences, which boils down to building applications faster. So, what ultimately they want to do is making the infrastructure on-prem looking like a bit more like the public cloud. Now, it's never going to be just like the public cloud with all the bells and whistles and innovation, but it's got to be such that you can actually take the best innovation of the public cloud, Kubernetes first, to the on-prem, rather than the other way around, right? That's our North Star, that's our belief, and Kubernetes is clearly a big winner in the container market. The way to develop new applications is based on containers. Kubernetes is the orchestrator right now in the marketplace. Every single big cloud provider has launched Kubernetes-based services in various forms, and so the enterprises are now looking at businesses of every size. They are trying to figure out how to really develop this capability on-prem, because in the end, as you know, it's never kind of black and white, right? We're still working with mainframes, long life to the mainframes. Going to be around for 20 years, probably. We're going to have traditional databases, ERP systems and the like for a very, very long time. What do you do, right? Everything that you develop new in the cloud needs to ultimately connect back to the existing systems because that's what you need. >> So, the simplicity of this is interesting. I want to just rewind that for a second. So, you're taking the best of Amazon, the container service, and alas, a container service with Kubernetes, bringing, making that available on-premises through the Cisco container platform-- >> Correct. >> So, this is the linchpin, so it's almost like-- >> Correct. >> You're not trying to take Cisco and say, "Oh, we're cloudified." >> Correct. >> You're taking the Cisco environment, which everyone runs, and some people think it runs great and-- >> Correct. >> They're not going to change that overnight, (chuckles) but you now enable them to take what they're doing here and make it compatible with the cloud and on-ramp to the cloud? >> So, the idea is fundamentally not so much taking EKS on-prem, that's not the thing, but the idea is having a container platform that fundamentally gives you pretty much a transparent way of interacting with the other side, and when I say transparent I really mean the linchpin of the solution, which is around the identity and authentication, right? What we've done that really differentiates this, that makes this so unique right now is that we have integrated IAM, you know, identity and authorization, sorry, and authentication in common. So, you're going to use the same set of keys on both sides, which of course is a developer dream because you don't have to use different type of keys in authentication models if you're a user. It's the same thing, and it's a dream for IT operation, because of course this is much simpler, as well as for the CSO and the security team. This makes it extremely secure, reduces the risk so that you have really a very consistent, integrated kind of solution, which is good-- >> So, there's engineering involved on Cisco's side. Can you elaborate on-- >> Actually, it's been a collaboration between the two sides, so-- >> Okay, explain, explain the partnership. >> So, absolutely, it's actually a collaboration. So, we've been collaborating to build this integrated architecture, right? It is a Cisco solution, but developed in collaboration with AWS, right, and so what we've been doing is fundamentally looking at how EKS was going to available to the container platform-- >> Mm-hm. >> Right, so that you'll be able to fundamentally orchestrate your containers in the most efficient way, regardless of where the containers actually end up being, which is actually what we're hearing from customers. Customers want to just take the containers that are coming from the developers and be free to develop whatever they want. Sorry, to deploy whatever they want. >> So, the containers are key here. So, the container service-- >> Yeah. >> And Kubernetes, which orchestrates containers, works across with the identity layer allows for, what, seamless interaction? Is that the key for developers is that I can... Take me through a quick use case. Explain it with an example. >> I don't know, you may take a new application in the banking, on the banking side, or you can take some new artificial intelligence kind of applications, or machine learning. What you fundamentally can do now is deciding, well, first of all what kind of tools you want to use. Do you want to use the AWS cloud with all the development tools, do you want to use yours? It doesn't matter, at the end there is an endover between the developers and the IT operations team, and the IT operations team, now with this solution, can fundamentally, quickly and easily provision clusters wherever they want, right, and they do it on the basis of their specific parameters, their specific goals, what do you want? It could be cost, it could be security, it could be reliability. Whatever it is, right? >> Mm-hm. >> It doesn't matter, this is not about the religion of whether it's public cloud or on-prem. It's just using the best of both worlds and deploying wherever it makes sense. >> You know, Andy Jassy and I always talk when we, at re:Invent. He always comes back to the same refrain, he always hits the same notes: "We listen to our customers, we're driven by the customers. "They take us where we want to go." >> Yeah. >> I know Cisco's been very customer-centric as well. How is the customers' reaction? What have they been telling you around why the solutions to develop... I mean, because we know Shadow IT's been going on with Amazon-- >> Yeah. >> For, you know, almost a decade. They put their credit card, they sneak up on Amazon, build some stuff, and look how easy, and then bring back to the IT department saying, "Hey, look what I did in the cloud, now you implement it." "Whoa, we've got network policies." So, there's been kind of that kind of tension, kind of R&D, if you will-- >> Yeah. >> But it's still happening. That kind of goes away here with this kind of announcement. How is the customer needs been profiled as you look at the announcement? What's the key reasons why they want this solution, and why did Amazon glob onto it, because they're not going to do something unless-- >> Yeah. >> It's a customer need. >> Yeah. >> Talk about that. >> Well, I would say, you know, it's really meeting the customer where they are, right, and again, we have two environments that, you know, have been inspired by different kind of criteria, right? There's a lot about application modernization, there's a lot about security, all about compliance on-prem. Of course the cloud is also very secure. I think we're over these kind of artificial discussions, but as AWS will say, it's a shared responsibility model, right? They guarantee the security of the cloud, and you're responsible for the security in the cloud, and so ultimately what people want to have is how can we actually integrate these two worlds in a consistent fashion, right, so that I have a consistent environment. That's really the keyword here, consistent environment where I have comomino networking between these things, wherever they are, comomino securing them, including authentication, identity and authentication, comomino monitoring this application, because the alternative is building another silo, and that's what people don't want to do. >> Mm-hm. >> Right? If I add another silo I may add innovation, but it comes to a very high cost. >> Yeah. >> People want to add innovation without disruption. They want to have this consistency and just extend the way they do things, of course going into a devops model and getting faster and faster, because that's the way to compete. >> Now, I think IT operations is an area, with the development enablement you guys have had, and with the work you guys have been doing DevNet and DevNet Create, this notion of programmability-- >> Yeah. >> You're right in line with the wave that everyone wants to ride, which is lower the cost of mundane tasks and/or scripts and things of that nature, command line interface, that's kind of like a hodge podge, make the network programmable and automate, and make the developer freer to do better things seems to be the trendline, so with that in mind, does this fit that horizontally scalable vision of the cloud? Do you see this having impact into say network sales, application, where's the key impact points for the customer, what impacts them? >> It's a huge impact, right, and depends whether you're taking like a tactical view of things, like literally application by application, or classes of application, or you're really thinking about where is this trend kind of taking you, right? Now, if you take the former kind of approach, then you're starting kind of identifying a whole bunch of different issues, like again, for instance the security one. The networking one is huge, right? People go, I don't know, Office 365 and they get disappointed. Why, because all the traffic gets tromboned through the data center because that's how things were. >> Choked them. >> Right? Now you're completely changing the application on top, and you discover that the infrastructure underneath hasn't been designed to accommodate those kind of traffic flows-- >> Yeah. >> Right, and so you're starting solving problem by problem. The fact of the matter is with the rise of the cloud the infrastructure and the processes in IT need to change altogether. Its infrastructure, its processes with of course the rise of devops, its relentless automation, right, potentially driven by, you know, more and more machine learning, and you know, AI kind of capabilities unfold. >> Just talk about that, because this is a big discussion, because I'm interviewing a lot of CIOs or CXOs or senior IT practitioners, and the ones that are successful are the ones who recognize the wave. Some people take different steps, they'll experiment, they'll do some tests. Some will just go all in and revamp, but they all recognize the one point. They've got to re-architect and re-imagine-- >> Yeah. >> The It infrastructure-- >> Yeah. >> Up and down, and the cloud is a big force and function-- >> Yeah. >> A role of data, programmability, automation. Now new concepts in some cases. Containers we all have been around for a while, but how do you guys talk to your customers, because this is something-- First of all, do you believe in that, and two, what do you talk to your customers about when you're saying, "Look, the hard truth "is how we got here is not how we go forward." >> Absolutely, well, you know, there are different ways. You can either boil the ocean, or for instance you take a solution like this. If you take a solution like this, you can actually sit down and discuss how to build a solution and architect a solution like this in collaboration with AWS. It took establishing four key principles, right? The first one has got to be hybrid, right, which means you need to strive to build this consistent environment between the two domains. Second, it has to be production-grade. We're speaking with customers adopting Kubernetes. They're saying that they get to a point where they need to integrate 20 opensource tools. Now, I wonder whether that's going to take you anywhere over the long term once you scale, you know, your operation. Can you actually do it with that kind of approach? Third, and this is a big one, you have to be able to manage this new hybrid reality, managing not just the new apps, but the old apps as well, and fourth, it's got to be extensible. You're starting from, like-- >> Yeah. >> Containers and authentication, how about everything else, right? How about cloud management and orchestration? How about application performance management, because now apps are getting everywhere, and of course, you know, that's probably the next episode of theCUBE that we can do together, they're going to the edge. >> (chuckles) Yeah. >> So, it's getting very, very complicated. So, even with a simple, well, "simple" example like this, you're starting seeing some principles that you need to establish, and that should inspire how you actually transform your infrastructure and operation. The worst thing that you can do is taking a tactical approach and just going step-by-step, and then, you know, move by move. >> Well, let's definitely do that CUBE. A couple of segments we'll have to do more of a deep dive with some slides. Certainly the edge is going to be a big point, but I want to ask you the impact to your customer base, because I think this is a game-changing announcement. I mean, Amazon Web Services, they don't do a lot of Barney deals. They don't do, you know, a lot of deals that look good on paper. They're very specific about how they do their business development, so it's a huge win for them, I think, and for you guys, but I think Cisco customers are going to be impacted, so please explain the impact to Cisco customers. What does it mean to me, I'm a Cisco customer. I've got routers, I've got switches, I've got UCS servers. I got all kinds of stuff in there. How does this impact my life, what changes, do I throw away gear, do I buy new gear, do I buy software? How do I buy the service, am I buying Amazon, do I have to now... Explain all that, how does the customer engage with the solution, and what's the impact to their environment? >> Well, that's a very big question. (laughs) Let me frame it a little bit, right? First of all, how are they impacted? They're impacted by the cloud altogether, right, and very often they're using multiple clouds, so we know it's multiple services, so they need to start thinking in terms of those principles that we said before. From a company standpoint, of course we've been well known over the last 30, 35 years, right, not to leave everybody behind. We're trying to, of course, accommodate the change of the infrastructure, and for instance, how do you move from CLI to more programmability through, for instance, you know, the rise of IBN, which is the intent-based networking where you have more policy-based models that help you fundamentally automate in the network, whether it's about, you know, connecting your data centers or connecting your branches, you have to fundamentally adopt more and more automation into your strategy, and so what we're doing is we're fundamentally helping customers making this kind of transformation. You mentioned DevNet, I think that's like the tip of the iceberg of also a new Cisco wave, right, where it's all about, if you want, transforming the talent that's been working with us in the company and outside the company, and having them taking it to the next level where instead of, you know, going classic CLI you're more and more kind of thinking in an automated fashion, because you have to get fast. The only thing that really matters is getting faster. >> I noticed you guys aren't just... Give you guys a lot of props here because you guys have a lot of meat on the bones with this announcement. Simplifying container orchestration with the Cisco hybrid solution for Kubernetes on AWS. You know, Linux Foundation wants to see it that way, Amazon's that way, but you guys have a lot of code up and running on the Sandboxes, and for the folks watching, developer.cisco.com/aws. developer.cisco.com/aws. You already got Sandboxes up already. >> Absolutely. >> Five labs for cloud native, you got the EKS-- >> Yep. >> Cloud thing up and running. >> Yeah, and we'll continue adding more and more material. The cloud is a different world, right? People want to experiment it, and by the way, if you think about how we're packaging and pricing the solution, you can actually start in a very modular way, right? You can just go with the software if you want, or you can buy the software and the hardware underneath. You can go with one, three, or five years. You can get demos of the solution. If you want, it's a different way of experimenting Cisco, but we're there. I mean, we made the change. We're totally for adding a softer motion to an already strong kind of hardware component that has been traditionally our strength, and if you think about it, having the full stack we can do some magic. If you buy Cisco software, like this solution, and then you put in Cisco hardware, such as HyperFlex and ACIR data center infrastructure-- >> Yeah. >> That a lot of customers are using you get fundamentally greater performance, you get a single number to call-- >> Yeah. >> Which is actually great. >> You know, it's interesting Fabio, and I talked with Lou Tucker years ago and then, well, continue to talk to him every year, as well as Susie Wee, and we see this on the cloud native, born on the cloud side, IT doesn't exist in a lot of these cloud native companies because the developers do all the IT, so you guys are seeing a surge in DevNet and DevNet Create where the Cisco ecosystem, your customers are turning into developers naturally-- >> Absolutely. >> And so we've seen that shift at Cisco-- >> Yeah. >> And that has happened internally. You guys recognize that the developer ecosystem, not the cloud native, but the application developers and-- >> Yeah. >> That your command line interface guys-- >> Yeah. >> And gals are turning into developers because-- >> Absolutely. >> Slinging code these days is pretty straightforward. >> Absolutely, if you look at our, actually my friend Susie Wee and how she is pitching this change. She talks about DevNet ops, others talk about DevSec ops. Whatever that is, you know, whatever kind of terminology you're using, it boils down to the same concept. You have to automate the way that you manage the infrastructure, right? >> Mm-hm. >> Infrastructure needs to become more responsive and faster. You can open five or six trouble tickets just to provision, you know, a container to a developer that's not going to carry it in the future. >> Yeah, it's kind of against them. >> It's got to be fast. >> Yeah, and then, you know, making the network programmable is the devops movement that's coming 2.0. >> Absolutely. >> And you guys are aware of, I know you are. It's interesting to see how Amazon relates to that. When you talk about that to AWS, what's the conversation like? Do they like, they obviously get it, and they're smart, they must get it immediately. >> I mean, absolutely, the reason why we're having this collaboration is very simple. I mean, they get the same requests from the customer. We're fundamentally speaking to the same people. Yeah, there may be differences sometimes, you know, the developer versus the IT operation, but in the end it boils down to the request, "Hey, you know, the public cloud is fantastic, "but I also want to have a solution for on-prem," right? "I have my needs," and if you're not totally burned into the cloud you have to, you want to have investment protection. You want to have, you know, your on-prem environment for whatever reason, right, and it's not about religion, it's about economics, it's about, you know, viability of certain solutions and the likes. >> Well, great news, congratulations. Fabio, great announcement with Amazon Web Services, good deal, hybrid cloud. Now, you guys, also at Cisco, you guys aren't married to one cloud, so I've got to ask the hard question. With impact to Google, Microsoft, you guys have relationships. How does this match up from an integration standpoint with other clouds? Is it deeper, is it more coming on the other clouds? Can you just kind of give us a description of the evolution of Cisco with the other clouds in this hybrid architecture? >> You know, I want to stay true to one of the principles that we mentioned and we orbited around this conversation, right, for the last 15 minutes, and that is we're customer-centric, right? Customers want to use the clouds that they want to use, we're there to help them, right? Now, AWS is of course, if you look at the share it's a pretty big market leader, but we will work with all the providers that our customers want to use. That's actually the North Star that we have. Now, if you look at the kind of, if you want, products or stacks or architectures, you will see that there is a huge degree of commonality across all of this, right? So, we're using kind of the same baseline software, but configuring slightly different ways for a, different way, for a simple reason, right, because the clouds are different, and not just the clouds are different, the cloud providers are different. So, we're paying full respect, you sit down, you discuss objectives, and then you actually go after those goals. >> Yeah, you just got to get out there and do those... You got to just do the work and integrate in. >> So, you have to expect a slight degree of integration-- >> Yeah. >> Because of the nature of the cloud business and the cloud providers, but I think when you look from a customer standpoint, what they want and what they're asking Cisco to do, they want to have commonalities. >> Mm-hm. >> Right? They want to have the same mean of networking, the same mean of securing these environments. They want to have the same way of extracting analytics, especially for application performance, and they want to have comomino managing and orchestrating all of these resources because the alternative is fundamentally getting lost into different tools and different clouds that by design cannot work in other environments, and so that's what customers want, and that's what we're pursuing as a company. >> Fabio, talk about the announcement in terms of just summarizing it real quick. You talked to a lot of customers, you've been doing press tours all day today, analysts, financial Wall Street, all the whole nine yards. Now you're here on theCUBE. What's the summary, what's the big walkaway looking back now after the announcement? Talk about the impact, what is this about? What is actually happening in your mind? How are people reacting to it, how big will this be? >> You know, I have two things in mind when I give myself that kind of question, right? The first one is I have this concept in my mind of making Kubernetes the engine of your innovation, right? This is about really transforming this new container orchestration technology that sounded esoteric until (chuckles) a few months ago into the cornerstone of the innovation, right? We've been talking about hybrid for a long while, but we believe that it's about mostly taking the best of the public cloud and making it work on-prem, rather than going the other way around, that's for sure, and I would say in general is this is a big first step into closing that gap between the infrastructure and the applications, which is kind of by definition closing the public cloud, but when it comes to the on-prem world we're still pretty far away, right, and so clearly there's a lot of competition in the marketplace, and we want to win that battle to close this gap, and closing that gap means fundamentally enabling customers to innovate and developing their new digital experience faster, and that's actually the nature of their business. >> Yeah, and they get value. >> It's not an IT conversation anymore, it's a business. >> And the value extraction and creation from new applications, and I think you've got to give credit to the Kubernetes community, because what's great about Kubernetes and then watching that evolve. We were there-- >> Yeah. >> theCUBE present at creation when it started, you know, hanging around OpenStack and all the different activities around the Linux Foundation before it went there, was that you had containers obviously happening, but the industry got behind kind of a defacto standard. >> Yeah. >> We've seen this before, TCPIP sounds like one of those things that just became a defacto standard and then it became a standard-- >> Well, another example with Linux itself, right? I mean, once, you know, big companies started going behind it and offering enterprise cloud support we saw really very, very rapid ramp-up. I think we're seeing the same with Kubernetes. I think now there are a bit less doubts about where the world is going. This is a clearly a winner, and people, I think, are now-- >> Yeah, and it's clear you guys are getting behind it. It's just Amazon doesn't do deals, like I said, unless it's a serious thing, so congratulations. You guys are getting behind Kubernetes. >> Yeah. >> Congratulations. >> Yeah, thank you for that. >> All right, Fabio Gori. Here inside the studio with Cisco, breaking down the hot news, game-changing news, Cisco's partnering with AWS with Kubernetes to really bring a level of industry standard and seamless integration between on-premises and the cloud, and excited to keep bringing you more action. Coming up we're going to be at the CNCF event, Kubcon, check us out there and also Amazon re:Invent, theCUBE will have multiple sets there. I'm John Furrier here in Palo Alto for this CUBE Conversation, thanks for watching. (techy music)

>> Live from Orlando, Florida, it's The CUBE, covering Cisco Live 2018 brought to you by Cisco, Netapp, and the CUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back. This is the CUBE live in Orlando for Cisco Live 2018, exclusive coverage, I'm John Furrier, cohost of the CUBE. Stu Miniman all week for three days and we have Dave Alante flying in as well, cohost for our kickoff of day two of our three days of coverage, great Dave, good to see you Stu. Good morning, so I think the big news obviously day one in the books. Cisco Live pumping on all cylinders. The parties, we saw great concert last night at the Cohesity party celebrating their 250 million in funding, but the real big news here is Cisco's moving up the stack and the business performance. Dave, you had a chance to scour the landscape last night and yesterday, what did you find out? What's going on with Cisco's business? >> Well the business wise, I mean, this company is actually doing quite well. It's a large company, 50 billion dollars, they're growing at four percent. You don't usually see growth, we've seen how many quarters in a row as IBM, you know, revenues declined. Cisco's reversed that trend and is growing. The other thing about Cisco is it brought about 60 billion dollars from overseas on the tax holiday, which is just amazing. The company is trying to shift its model, more toward a cloud-like model. Stu, you've made the point many times Cisco, like Dell, doesn't have a cloud. So they've got to create a cloud-like model, they've got to go multi-cloud, they've got to be an arms dealer for the cloud. So as a company that's 50 billion dollars, a 200 billion dollar plus market value, which is down from where they were in the halcyon days but still it's a 4X revenue multiple and they throw off over $10 billion dollars in free cash flow a year, so this company's very, very strong and John, we were talking last night about the angle and security and basically a programmable network infrastructure. To me, the big trend is it's all about the data. As the data explodes, the network gets a lot of pressure. >> You know, Stu, I want to get your thoughts on this because we talked on security last night. Talk about companies that have to pivot. Cisco is not pivoting in any capacity. They are dealing with networks that are running the internet, right? So Chuck Robbins just said, "Look it, "we have done a lot of great things" but they're dealing with so much security threats. It's encrypted traffic, they are dealing with a ton of activity so the relevance of Cisco is on an all time high. The opportunity is to take that relevance and build on top of it, and so, we're looking for some signals, Stu. What do you when you squint through the noise and look at Cisco's relevance, obviously you see they run networks. You're moving up the stack with Kubernetes and containers and DevNet's been a great indicator there's a rise of the new normal, but they gotta actually put it together, they got a community. Where is the change happening, Stu, in your opinion? >> Yes, so John, first of all I look at, we've been tracking Cisco's moves in open source for many years. Dave Wright, Lou Tucker, folks we've had on the CUBE. They're very involved in open stack, they're deeply involved, Kubernetes, Ishdio, Diane Greene on stage. So there was that seed of growth and change, but it didn't really push far enough. Where the critique I've had for Cisco and many of the other big legacy companies, is they haven't really embraced cloud as fast as they could. It's good to see where Cisco is and where they're trying to bring their ecosystem. The exciting stuff has been right here, in the DevNet zone. How many events do we go to and companies we talk to? "Oh we need to be relevant to all "these developers out there," well, Susie and her team here, they've got a platform, they've got 500 thousand developers on it. John, you and I interviewed one little startup's netnology. A buddy of mine, actually, Jason Ellerman, worked for this other company called Network to Code. They've got this whole little incubator section here in the DevNet zone. These are hardcore networking people helping to bridge that gap between the network and the developer world. It's open APIs, it's all the things we've been talking about and that really does set the stage for Cisco to help, not only itself, but it's very large channel and partner ecosystem move further into this new, cloud native world. >> I want to get your thoughts real quick. I know we've got to get in day two but, if you look at Cisco, they've done a lot of things early. The human network, they've had telepresence. So they've hit megatrends, but they misfired on timing. The timing-- >> IOT is another >> IOT, they misfired on timing. But again, they had the network to fall back on, which is a core asset and core competency. But if you look at the timing of what they're doing right now, as Pat Gelsinger would say, "You get on the right wave" and what DevNet, to me, proves, Stu, is your point, is that Cisco's on the Cloud Native wave and they have a clear visibility for their network engineers, not to feel like they're not relevant and they have to retrain to learn how to code. What's important and we talked about it yesterday, is that network engineers are instrumental powering. And they're the tier one people. Now, with Cloud Native, there's a path where they can extend their career, not pivot, or reset, it's just becoming more powerful. So if you can be a network engineer, and then code with Cloud Native, you've got the best of both worlds, the power base extends. It's not like "I need to be retrained, my job's going away." No, no, your job is expanding. This is what DevNet has tapped into with DevNet Create, your reaction. >> Well when cloud exploded, everybody wanted infrastructure as code, and to your point, Stu, you remember when IBM launched Bluemix, like "We need developers." You know, Dell, HPE, Lenovo, these companies don't have a strong developer community, even Oracle kinda lost its way with developers. Here comes Cisco allowing Cisco engineers to do infrastructure as code, it's a huge leverage, it's an amazing-- >> Yeah Oracle should take a playbook out of what Cisco's doing, Stu, your thoughts. >> Yeah, absolutely, there's a lot of training. One of the strengths, actually, if you look at this community, it's about training, we talked about it in our open yesterday, John, when you walk in, there's this giant bookstore, people are excited, it's their career and they've been hearing for the last five years, up, you know. Automations gonna kill your job. That the machines are gonna kill your job. They're jumping in and most of them, at least, are understanding that they need to adjust what they're doing, learn, move forward, and embrace some of these options. >> Well, and it's not just, as we were talking earlier, John, it's not just learning python as a generalist, it's applying it specifically to Cisco infrastructure and actually getting stuff done, moving from command line interfaces to a much more facile development environment. Driving value through developer productivity and increasing value up a stack. >> Yeah as Diane Greene said yesterday in the keynote from Google Cloud is mind blowing experiences. I think Cisco is in a great position, they got a lot of core things going on, it's a position of strength. Can they execute, can they secure that network security, can they have that extensibility and the programmability in the network I think is core. I think DevNet's an indicator. Everything else will fall into place, in my opinion, so, day two Dave, thanks for joining us. >> My pleasure, thanks for having me. >> We'll have Dave Alante in the CUBE throughout the day, he's also gonna go out and get some stories. Wrapping it up here on the intro, day two begins. This is the CUBE, thanks for watching. Be right back with more after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the CUBE, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. (busy music) >> Welcome back, everyone, live here in Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the CUBE's coverage of KubeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier, the host of the CUBE, along with Lauren Cooney, who's the founder of Spark Labs. She's been co-host with me two days, two days of wall to wall coverage. Stephan Fabel, Product Strategy Lead at Canonical, is here inside the CUBE, and from San Francisco. Again, welcome to the CUBE, thanks for coming. >> Thank you, thanks so much for having me. >> I've got to, you guys have been around the block, you know about open source software platforms, you get and do it for a while. Interesting time here at KubeCon. Kubernetes, Istio, Kubeflow, Cloud Native, they've still got the brand name CloudNativeCon and KubeCon. Modern application architecture's now in play. I see this notion of an interoperability model coming in that's certainly going to be a de facto standard. People are already kind of declaring it a de facto standard. It really shows a path to multi-cloud, but also frees up developers from a lot of the heavy lifting. Lou Tucker from Cisco was saying they don't want to do networking. Let's just have that be infrastructure as code, that's DevOps, that's what we want. >> Stephan: That is exactly right. >> What are you guys doing here? What's the story with Canonical and how does that fit into the megatrends? >> Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of things that we at Canonical always believe to be one of the core sort of tenets in our distribution of Kubernetes. As you know, we've been very active in this space fairly early on, and have been an active distributor of Kubernetes and a certified distributor of our version of Kubernetes. Pure upstream, remain conformant to the main public clouds, such as to enable that workload migration and mobility from on prem up to any of the other providers to accommodate all kinds of use cases, right. >> You guys made a bet on Kubernetes, obviously, good call. >> Stephan: Right. >> Right. What's the progress now, what's next? Because that's, the bets are paying off. I saw Red Hat had a great bet with what they did with Kubernetes, changed what OpenShift became. You guys had a bet in Kubernetes, what has that become for Canonical? >> Yeah, so based on the pure upstream distribution that we have, we really feel that enabling the ecosystem in a standards compliant way so that all of the landscape projects that are part of the CNCF can be deployed on top of Kubernetes, on top of our distribution of Kubernetes in just the same way that they would be developed or deployed in any of the large containers of service offerings that are out there is one of the big benefits that our customers would gain from using our Kubernetes. >> What's your differentiator for the distribution of Kubernetes that you have versus others? >> Well, there's two. The first one, I think, is the notion that deploying Kubernetes on premise is something that you want to do in a repeatable fashion, operationally efficient with the right capex opex mix, so we believe that there is a place for Kubernetes as a product, just deploy it, it works on any substrate that you've got available to you. But then also, for mainstream America, right, you may want to have a managed service on top of Kubernetes as well. We offer that, too, just a way to get started and kick the tires and see where that takes you as far as the developers are concerned. Now, on prem, you will find that there are a couple of challenges when deploying Kubernetes that are really the key differentiator. The first one, I would say, is things like integration into the storage that's local, integration into the network that's local, and integration into all of those services that should be available in the Cloud Native microservices architecture platform, such as low bouncers, right, elasticity, object store, etc. The second, and most importantly, because it is a key enabler for those next generation workloads, is the GPGPU enablement work that we're doing with partners such as NVIDIA. When you deploy the Canonical distribution of Kubernetes, you actually get the NVIDIA acceleration out of the box the way that NVIDIA envisions this on top of Kubernetes and the way that it is, by the way, being deployed on the public clouds. >> You bring a lot of your goodness to the table inside the Kubernetes distribution. OK, what are some customers doing? Give some use cases of some customers' Kubernetes, what are some of the things that they're doing with it, what's the early indication? What's the feedback? >> Sure. We have a ton of customers that are using our version of Kubernetes to do the machine learning applications and the AI of the next gen workloads in use cases such as smart cities or connected cars, where, when you look at self-driving cars, right, as the next gen that's coming out of the valley, they put in 300,000, 150,000, 400,000 miles a year on the road these days just optimizing the models that are being used to actually take over one day. Enabling those kinds of workloads in a distributed fashion requires DevOps expertise. Now, the people who are actually writing those applications are not DevOps people, they're data scientists, right. They shouldn't have to learn how to deploy Kubernetes, how to create a container and all those things. They should just be able to deploy the application on top an attractive substrate that actually supports that distributed application use case, and so that is where we come in. >> This is interesting, because what you're basically doing is making an application developer a DevOps developer overnight. >> Stephan: That's exactly right. >> That's really important. I was just talking with the co-chair of CNCF. We're talking about, Liz Rice and I were talking about why everyone's so, like, excited here. One of the things I said was, because people who are doing DevOps were hardcore, and they had to build everything from scratch, and all the scar tissue. But the benefits, once you got through the knothole there, the benefits were amazing, right. You go, okay, you don't want to do that again, but now there's a way to make it easier. There's kind of a shared experience even though no one's met each other, so there's kind of a joint community. >> I agree. I think it is increasingly about enabling developers who are experts in their field to actually leverage Kubernetes and the advantages that it brings in a more intuitive fashion. Just take it up a notch. >> How did the Kubernetes vibe integrate in with Canonical? I'm sure, given the background of the company, it probably was a nice fit, people embraced it. You guys were early. >> Stephan: Yeah. >> What's the internal scuttlebutt on the vibe with Kubernetes? >> Oh, we love Kubernetes as a technology. Ubuntu was always close to the developer and close to where the innovation happens. It was a natural fit to actually support all that workflow now in this new world of Kubernetes. We embraced OpenStack for the same reason, and in a similar fashion, Kubernetes has really driven the point home, containerist applications with a powerful orchestration framework such as Kubernetes are the next step for all the developers that are out there, and so as a consequence, this was a perfect match. >> It's also a no-brainer if you think about it, software methodology moving to the next level. This is total step up function for productivity for developers. That's really a key thing. What's your observation of that trend? Because at the end of the day, there's now Kubernetes, which does a lot of great things, but one of the hottest areas is Istio service meshes, and then you've got Kubeflow orchestration, a lot of other things that are happening around Kubernetes. What are you guys seeing that's important for Canonical's customers, what you're doing product wise. Where's the order of operations, what's next? What are you guys focused on, what's the priorities? >> Well, our biggest priority right now is enabling things like Kubeflow, which, by the way, are also using Istio internally, right, to actually enable those data scientists who actually deploy their I workload. We work very closely with Google to try and enable this in an on prem fashion out of the box which is something you can actually do today. >> John: You guys are doing this now inside this. >> We're doing this right now. This is also where we're going to double and triple down. >> This is actually your best practice, too, if you think about it, you want to take it in house, and then get a feel for it. What's the internal vibe on that, positive? >> Oh, absolutely. I mean, we always saw infrastructure as code and actually as intelligent infrastructure as something that we wanted to build our conceptual framework around, so very concretely, right. We've always had this notion of composable building blocks adding up to, sum of one being greater than two, right, like those types of scenarios. Actually using things like Kubernetes as an effective building block to then build out web applications that use things like machine learning algorithms underneath, that's a perfect use case for a next gen workload, and also something that we might use ourselves internally. >> Well, hey, that whole building block thing, it's happening. >> Stephan: Yeah. >> News flash. >> Stephan: Exactly, right? >> I mean, it's almost a pinch me moment for the people in the industry like, oh my god, it's going to go to a whole other level. How do you guys envision that next level going? Beyond the building blocks, is it, I mean, what's the vision that you guys have? Obviously, infrastructure as code programmability, but now, you're talking about infrastructure as code was great, but now you've got microservices growth coming on top of it, it's a services market now. >> It is, it is. I think that the biggest challenge will be the distribution of the workloads, right. You have edge compute coming along in the telco space, you have, like I said, smart cities, right, the sensors will be everywhere, and they will feed data back, and how do you manage that at scale, right? How do you manage that across various different hardware perspectives? We have hardware platforms such as ARM 64 picking up, right, and actually playing a very significant role at the edge, and increasingly, even in the core. We've always believed that providing that software and the distribution of IS such as Kubernetes and others on top of those additional architectures would make a huge difference, and that is clearly paying off. What we see is, the increased need of managing hybrid workloads across multi-cloud scenarios that could be composed of different architectures, not just x86, the future is not homogeneous at all. It'll be all over the place. All those use cases and all those particular situation require that building block principle, like all the way from the OS up to the application. >> John: That's a great use case for containers. Kubernetes, Istio, Kubeflow. >> Absolutely. >> All stacking in line beautifully from an evolution standpoint. I've got to ask you a personal question. I mean, I was at Canonical, great company, I want to thank Canonical for being a sponsor of the CUBE over the years. We've had Mark Shuttleworth on the CUBE had an OpenStack going way back when. You guys are a great participant in the community as a company and the people there been phenomenal. You're new. >> I'm new. >> What attracted you to Canonical? What was the motivating force? What drew you in? You're now running Products, a big job. You've got a lot in front of you. Obviously, it's a great market, so you're a great company. Just share, just color and why Canonical, what attracted you there? >> I've always been a user of Ubuntu, I've been a user since the first hour. I've used Ubuntu in my research. I did robotics based on Ubuntu way before it was cool. I built all kinds of things on top of Ubuntu throughout my entire career. Working for Canonical, which is a company that always exhibited great vision into the future and great predictions into trends that would prove to become true was just, for me, something that was very attractive. >> Their leadership has a good eye on the prize. They had good 20 mile stare, as we say, they can see the roadmap ahead and then make either course corrections or tweaks. >> Yeah. >> Great, awesome. Well, I mean, what's new there? What's your, take a minute to explain what's new at Canonical, role here at KubeCon, what are some of the conversations you're having? >> Yeah, so I mean, for us at KubeCon, it's always been an important part of our outreach to the community, great opportunity for us to have great conversations with our partners in the field. I think it is really about enabling the ecosystem in a more straightforward way. There's no better place to have those types of conversations than here, where everybody comes together and really establishes those relationships. For us, it is about, again, enabling the developer and really staying close to that innovation and supporting that in an optimal way. Yes, I mean, that, to us, is the role that we play. You've got a lot of end users here who are building stuff. >> Oh, absolutely, yeah. They, I mean, I had a talk today about Kubeflow with Google, and after the talk, lots of folks came up to me and said, hey, how can I use this at home, right? >> Sometimes with, whether it's timing, technology, all the above, Kubernetes really hit it strong with the timing, industry was ready for it. Containers had a nice gestation period. People know about containers. >> Stephan: Absolutely. >> Engineers know containers, know about those kinds of concepts. Now we're at a whole other operating environment. >> Stephan: Absolutely. >> You guys are at the forefront. Thanks for coming on the CUBE. >> Oh, thank you, I appreciate it. >> Stephan sharing the perspective, Stephan Fabel. Running Product and Strategy for Canonical, building stuff, this is what's going on in Kubernetes in KubeCon, end users are actually building and orchestrating workloads. Multi-cloud is what people are talking about and the tech to make it happen is here. I'm John Furrier with the CUBE. Stay with us for more live coverage here at KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF CUBE coverage. We'll be right back after this short break. (busy music)

>> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. It's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2018, brought to you by Cisco. >> Hi there and welcome to the special CUBE live broadcast here at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California, It's theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Cisco's DevNet Create. This is Cisco's developer ecosystem brand new, second event that they've done, and it's one and a half years in existence. This is Cisco's extension to their DevNet developer program, which is mostly Cisco developers, mostly networking, and theCUBE is here covering the future of cloud native Kubernetes, and the future of application development, as networks become more programmable. I'm John Furrier, your host, with Lauren Cooney, analyst today co-hosting with me, all day coverage. Our guest is Allan Naim, who is the product manager at Google Kubernetes engine, at Google, right down the street here. Allan, great to have you, thanks for joining us. >> Yeah, thanks for inviting me. >> So, you are the key man with the fireside chat with Susie Wee who is heading up this whole program, doing an amazing job. Google's no stranger. We all know Google at the scale level, massive scale, running infrastructure, building your own stuff, really inventing the category and then fast followers, Facebook among others, large scale. So, you guys invented Kubernetes. So that's a fact. So, tell the story of how it started because there was a moment in Google where Kubernetes, there was a debate. Do we keep it internally, open it up? And you guys have history. You've created MapReduce, you've created the data surge that we're seeing now and changing the game there. Maybe a little bit differently than how Kubernetes is handled. What's the inside story about the creation of Kubernetes and how it's evolved? >> Yeah, so Google has been working with containers for a long, long, time. It's nothing new to Google, and we wanted really to take a lot of the best practices associated with how we manage and run containers internally and share that with the community as a whole. What we found initially was the move to the cloud was very much traditionally a lift and shift and modernized move. And, there's a reason why only, I think the latest statistic I've seen is less than 10% of the applications have actually moved to the cloud. What about the other 90%? So, we wanted to bring some of the magic that Google uses internally and bring that to the world, right, so that you can modernize wherever you're running, right, for those applications that can't just move to the cloud. Why not provide a way to take advantage of some of the innovations that we've created around packaging applications up, deploying applications very seamlessly, and then eventually moving them to the cloud with less friction? And that was really behind the reason we took Kubernetes, which is really a set of best practices around how Google runs and operates containers, and made it available to the open source community. We could've kept it internally, right, and not shared it with the community, but then that really stifles innovation. Google is not about stifling innovation. We're about enabling the community to really drive innovation and build an ecosystem around it. And looking back now, it was a tremendous move. >> Yeah, and you know what, the leadership I remember at that time, and I wanted to get that out there. Thank you for sharing that. Craig McLuckie, Brendan Burns, Joe Beda, those guys and the team around them, it was kind of a small team, held the line on that. And the conversation was, this needs to happen in an open way mainly because you saw, though, how to manage your workloads internally and wanted to bring it to the masses. So, real props to the original team, a really good call, and again, it worked out great. >> Yes. >> So, okay, today. Where are we today? Because now you go back at the creation of Kubernetes, you guys open it up, still contributed and nurtured it, and now it becomes part of the bigger part of the open source community. You have now new innovations. What is the update from your standpoint where Kubernetes is today? Okay, it's well know that the containers is now standard and standard. Now the business model container hasn't materialized. That's okay. The technical architecture is very solid. Kubernetes has become the favorite child in the architecture because of the benefits. What's the update? What's Kubernetes doing today that's compelling? What's the update? >> Yeah, so just as you said, containers are mainstream now. Kubernetes is on fire. We see a world today where Kubernetes is literally running everywhere, right, from Google Cloud to other clouds to partnerships that we have with the likes of Cisco. You now have these clusters that are popping up in heterogeneous environments. So, we've enabled developers now to really build services very efficiently and update those services in a consistent manner regardless of where those services are running. Now, as you build more and more clusters and expose more and more services, the day two experience starts coming in, right? How do I manage this environment? How do I manage my services? How do I find out what these services are actually doing, which services are talking to each other? How do I do more of the networking aspect around traffic management? And this is where I see a lot of the investments happening right now in the open source world with projects like Istio, which are fairly new, but are taking a lot of the goodness that Kubernetes is bringing and applying more of an operations mindset around networking. >> And what problem is that solving? Can you be specific? Because I like this day two experience. I mean, day three will be like, oh my God. How do you manage it beyond that, but, what is the problem that's being solved? Is it more industrial strength, is it more tolerance? Is it securities or all the above? What's the main problem? >> It's security, it's when you're running services in heterogeneous environments, there is no consistent security model, right? Istio helped solved some of that. It's service discovery. When services are running, again, in environments where you have different mechanisms for storing services, how do you discover these services? Now, how do you route traffic to the right service? How do you do canary deployments where perhaps I'd like to trickle certain load onto a new version and eventually move all my work into the new version that I've deployed? So, canary testing. Running services in geographic locations and using networking algorithms to route my requests to the closest location. Those are all really hard challenges that you need to solve, and technologies like Istio really make it possible for developers to get those benefits without having to write a single line of code, right? So, you leverage the API to get all these benefits that I just talked about. >> I want to get you in for a minute to talk about that if we can. Talk about Google cloud right now vis a vis the momentum because a lot's changed with Google just in the past couple of years. A lot of people on board, new hires, industry veterans, leaders. We've heard Lou Tucker from Cisco say at CubeCon that Istio is probably the biggest thing he's seen in years in terms of its implementation capability to impact the valued creation of application developers and also in creating efficiencies in networks. How is the Google team right now doing? Give an update, because you guys are now in the center of it and I've called you guys, the real competitor to Amazon, because I consider you and amazon probably the coolest cloud and most relevant clouds vis a vis what clients want to do in a modern era. Not so much retrofitting legacy cloud to make it kind of retrofit, but really doing ground zero cutting edge cloud stuff. What's the update from Google Cloud? What are you guys most proud of? What's the things that you want to highlight that are notable? >> So, Google Cloud's been growing at a tremendous rate. It's just mind-boggling how fast customer adoption has been. What we've seen is, the adoption has spanned all the way from startup to small, medium-sized businesses, extending into the Fortune 100s regardless of industry. And what we hear from customers is they like the clean APIs that Google provides. They like our compute infrastructure from a resiliency standpoint, the transparency that we provide in terms of enabling customers in running their workloads on Google Cloud. We've made a lot of investments in Google Cloud and we continue to make these investments. Now, on the cloud native and container fronts, what we're doing and what we're focusing on is really a differentiated model where we are working with customers to enable them to modernize in place and move to the cloud at their own pace versus having to lift and shift an application to take advantage of modernization and APIs in the cloud. That's really a differentiating story that we're bringing to the table. Along with that, we continue to invest in storage, in optimizing our networking, in setting up more and more points of presence around the world. We added, I believe, over 12 zones last year around the world. So, the growth rate has just been phenomenal. On the Kubernetes side, it's all about value, right? It's all about differentiated value as well. Google has been operating a managed Kubernetes service now for over two years. Building and providing a managed service is hard, right? We have the expertise to do that. We feel that Google Cloud is the best environment on the planet for running containers. And through this expertise, we'll continue to invest to bring our services and make it a first class experience to run managed scale containers as well. >> So, would it be safe to say that you guys are focused on differentiating and not trying to be the whole world, everything to everybody, to really kind of narrow the focus? >> Well, there are table stakes that you need to address, especially around storage and networking, and we feel we've gotten there, right? Now, for a customer that's picking a cloud, whether it's Google or any other cloud, we've addressed those table stakes. But on the cloud native side of the house, when building containerized applications, we feel that we have a differentiated offering that really no other cloud on the planet can deliver on. >> That's awesome. Let's talk about, and my last question is mush more about developers' relationship to the new architecture. We'll call this the new architecture. >> Yeah. >> You've got Kubernetes which has done some great innovate work, containers continue to be a great resource aspect of architecture, and storage infrastructure becoming more programmable like what Cisco's offering. Great stuff. App developers. I just want to write code. So, you've got some developers. How does a developer, in your opinion, Google's opinion, yours and Google's opinion, how do they determine their relationship to the network or the new architecture? You've got some guys who just want to write apps. So, I don't want to do any kind of speeds and feeds. Some guys want to get down and dirty and wire up some services when you get in the middle layer, and some might want to get down low in the stack. How does a developer kind of peg their orientation to different parts of the cloud architecture? >> So, when you really think about it, Kubernetes is a logical layer that sits on top of infrastructure that makes it possible to take an application that runs a certain way in one location to run consistently in other locations. So, for application developers that just want to write code, we've got a clean set of APIs that they can take advantage of to spin up cluster resources, deploy their applications. We've been heavily focused as well on not just creating an amazing story for stateless applications, but stateful applications as well. So, being able to orchestrate, you choreograph your application deployment. Now, for developers that want to get their hands dirty, the way we've designed Kubernetes is very much an extensible model. So, the Kubernetes APIs can be extended and functionality can actually be over written to tailor the experience. A developer may want to plug in a different type of controller, for example, versus the standard Kubernetes controller. So, we enabled that, think of it as a peel the onion approach, so that we can meet the developer where they are and give them the tools required for them to actually be productive in their companies or in the community. >> Awesome. Right, and you guys have a deal with Cisco, or relationship with Cisco, or else you're here, at the DevNet Create event, which is about cloud native, not so much about being kind of Cisco or DevNet, the classic developer program. On stage you talked about Istio. Is that the key to the partnership with Cisco? What specifically is your relationship to Cisco? >> Yeah, it's a great question. So, with Cisco, we've been hearing from customers a lot that getting Kubernetes up and running on premise is really hard. We've also been hearing a lot from customers that they want support. So, we got together with Cisco to provide a hybrid offering that tailors customers that want to start their journey to cloud native on prem. So, Cisco basically provides a mechanism, right, for customers to actually run Kubernetes on prem with a single support model for all their needs, which is great for Google because this is something that Cisco-- >> They know a lot about that. >> Absolutely. Now, for customers that want to start building in the cloud and connecting to the cloud, but you need secure performance networking. How do you do that, right? Well, Cisco is an innovator in networking and security. Google is an innovator in cloud and open source technology and cloud native technology. So, we bring these two things together to give really developers and sys admins a world where they can collaborate and have an API-driven approach to running workloads that span a hybrid estate. >> John: And it's great for you guys too. You open up your market to the enterprise. >> Yeah, I would say that also it really gives an opportunity for network engineers and developers, and I think you talked about clusters ops and Arkino and new types of app ops that you're bringing to the table-- >> Yep, yes. >> And what kind of roles do you see these people playing as you grow that ecosystem? >> Exactly. It's not just about the technology, but it's the culture within the company that oftentimes really drives, it's a hard obstacle to bypass. For customers that I talk to, a lot of times they tell me, look, we've settled. We want to go with Kubernetes, but what about the internal culture? How do we build our teams around Kubernetes? How do we scale our services in such a way where we have specialization of service?kino And I talked about Narkino, the whole notion of separation of concerns where we introduce this new notion in terms of how Google does things of an application ops team that's typically small in size, but their role starts where the developer role ends, and basically, they're responsible for taking an application from a developer and deploying it out into a environment. Then you have a cluster ops role team that's focused on the underlying infrastructure and maintains all the various cluster APIs, the Kubernetes environment. So, think of them as shared services that are very much tailored to enabling developers to do what they do best and build great applications and push changes in production very quickly. >> Well, thanks for coming out to theCUBE. I know you've got another hard stop. You're got another panel. Real quick, I'll give you the final word. What's the one thing people should know about Google Cloud that they may not know about or gets buried in the noise out in the marketplace? >> Yeah. Google Cloud is the most innovative cloud out there on the market. We have points of presence in literally every region around the world. Our APIs are some of the cleanest out there of any cloud, as well as the Kubernetes experience running in Google has been something that we've been invested in for over two years and it's actually a highly optimized experience for developers that want to run their containerized application and very differentiated. And 100% upstream compatible with Kubernetes open source. >> That's great stuff. I got to tell you, just Google team, we covered all the cloud players from day one. There's no shortcut. You've got to put the work in, whether it's public sector or getting the building blocks in there. You guys do a great job. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Kubernetes is worth noting. theCUBE covering all the action, and the story here is Kubernetes, Google's creation, which is now open standard for all, 100% upstream compatible here at the Cisco's DevNet Create event. Back with more live coverage. I'm John Furrier with Lauren cooney after this short break. (upbeat music) [Announcer] In center.

>> Announcer: Live, from Austin, Texas, it's theCube, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Linux Foundation, and theCube's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, live here. This is theCube's exclusive coverage, live in Austin, Texas for Cloud Native Con and KubeCon with The Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier, the founder. Silicon Angle Media, my cohost Stu Miniman, and next to us Joe Beda, who's the co-founder, co-founder and CTO of Heptio With Craig McLuckie, the famous startup that came out of the Google team, really one of the principal founders of Kubernetes with Craig and the team Brendon Burns and the like. Great to have you on theCube, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much for having me, it's exciting. >> Good time, first time on theCube, glad to have you, we've been trying to get your perspective because obviously we're fans of the Kubernetes, I just had Lou Tucker on, we were talking interclouding and some orchestration opportunity. You guys had that vision and it's really important to tell the story, at the beginning with Kubernetes. You guys were sitting around, having a little beer, free food at the Google cafeteria, what was it like? What happened? How did it all come together? >> All right well, I started at Google probably 10, 12 years ago, did a whole bunch of stuff but eventually landed doing cloud. Craig and I started up a Google compute engine, VM as a service and the odd thing to recognize is that nobody who had been at Google for a long time thought that there was anything to this VM stuff. Because Google had been on containers for so long, that was their mindset, Borg was the way that stuff was actually deployed, so my boss at the time, who's now in Cloud Era booted up a VM for the first time, and anybody in the outside world would be like hey, that's really cool and his response was like, well now what? You're sitting at a prompt, that's not super interesting, how do I run my app? That's what everybody's been struggling with with Cloud, it's not how do I get a VM, how do I actually run my code? As Google got more and more serious about Cloud, every big company wants to dog food their products. How do we make the experience that folks inside of Google have, developers inside of Google have, match the experience that Cloud customers have? The choice there was either we make everybody inside of Google start using VM's which would have felt like that step backwards, or we teach the rest of the world about Borg. Now around the same time, docker started getting a lot of attention and we were like hey, those guys are onto something, they really found a good way to make this technology accessible to users on a single node level, but our experience at Google really taught us that that clusters you, how do you actually create this abstraction that a whole bunch of computers are one thing that you operate with? That was the thing that was going to be interesting and so out of that, we decided Kubernetes was going to be the thing or at least getting Borg out to the rest of the world, and we knew for it to be effective, it couldn't just be Google doing it alone, we had to do it in a way that would bring the rest of the industry with us. That's the motivation behind Kubernetes. It took us about another three months to convince all the folks at Google that this was a good idea, it was controversial, the open source projects at the time were things like, the biggest things would be like Chrome and Android. Those things were, the relationship with their community was very different from what we were aiming for with Kubernetes, they were much more consumer focused versus infrastructure focused. >> It was early too for Google to recognize the multi cloud world. >> I think some it wasn't so much multi cloud as much as developers have a really strong sense of where the lock in is, where the vendor lock in is, and we knew that if we wanted to win the hearts and minds of engineers and developers and folks that took this stuff seriously, as the underdog in the cloud world at the time, you had to really go out there and build something that was going to be widely applicable. Because you don't want to invest your time and energy into something that's super specialized to one cloud and I think the whole multi cloud thing, honestly I think it's engineers and developers and operations folks that had that sense from the get go, we were just reacting to that. >> Good instincts too. Kubernetes certainly working out today, state of the union, cause we're still only less than three years old as a community, seems like 20, but the momentum's been amazing, has been a lot of revision, a lot of people have their own versions of Kubernetes, yet there's a core, vanilla Kubernetes, but it's working. People have gotten around this. What is the big thing that has surprised you the most and where are you most excited right now, where Kubernetes is at? >> Okay surprise, there's 4100 people here at KubeCon, that's absolutely insane. I think we had this idea that it could be a thing and that, but I don't think that any of us imagined that within three years we'd be sitting here, doing this type of thing. That I think for me is the most surprising. It's a challenge to take these ideas that have been successful inside at Google and translate those to the rest of the world and it wasn't an easy or obvious thing, there were a lot of good ideas but figuring out how to get those out there, I think that really is due to the larger community. Folks like Clayton Pullman from Red Hat coming in early with a lot of that really brought a lot of that outside DNA necessary to bridge that gap. Surprising that we got here, but really it took the community to make that happen. In terms of what I'm most excited about right now, with the announcement of EKS from Amazon, it definitely feels like we're moving into a new phase of Kubernetes where folks are being much more focused on what do you do with Kubernetes versus how do you get Kubernetes running. Kelsey tweeted it the other day, but I think we've been saying for a while, Kubernetes at its heart is a platform for building platforms, really we viewed it from the start as a toolbox and I think we're only now starting to see, what other things are people going to be building with that toolbox and I think that's going to be that larger ecosystem, is going to be much larger than Kubernetes itself. >> Joe, coming into this show, there were so many announcements around Kubernetes, there's like 42 certified different versions out there. I think you could help explain a little bit because there's the big cloud guys, you mentioned Clayton who we had earlier from Red Hat, there's all these companies, oh well, Kubernetes is just like it's a piece and it's in there. Your company is around Kubernetes, so what does this mean that Kubernetes is, I guess we'd say commoditized across there, I think it's a good thing for the industry, but what does it mean, why is there a need for Heptio and what do you guys see as your role in the ecosystem? >> There's a bunch of folks that are really concentrating on how do I get Kubernetes up and running and that's one thing, and I think that landscape is going to be changing and evolving over time. We're definitely happy to help folks be successful with Kubernetes, it's one of those things we're going to do, we're going to do an open source project, services, support and training with that, but when we look forward, I think a big part of it is, how do we bridge the gap to integrate Kubernetes into businesses, how do we start building those next layer tools on top of it and to some degree, it's a wild west. There's those 42 companies, everybody's trying to actually find something that's going to be interesting, start solving problems, but the thing that's really encouraging to me is that Kubernetes is the base and we're doing work, both Heptio and the community around conformance to make sure that we actually have a solid base that folks can build on top of. Then everybody's focused on how can we actually capture the attention of developers, how can we actually deliver value there and so that's a really great dynamic, when everybody's like I want to do something really great that people are going to get a lot out of, only good things are going to come from that. >> Yeah and I liked, there was a concern some people had, oh last week AWS is now all in, they've got EKS, but you had an announcement about the Heptio authenticator open source authentication, a little bit of a partnership with AWS it looked like. Maybe explain, it sounds like one of the things you're building on top of this. >> Yeah exactly. Like everybody else, we had heard all the rumors, hey is Amazon going to do a Kubernetes offering or not. In our mind, there were two ways. >> Didn't they have to Joe? >> Well that's what I thought last year, but who knows, I think Amazon doesn't have to do anything but when we first started Kubernetes, we reached out to the folks at Amazon including Deepak and we're like hey, you guys are welcome, come join us here and they were like yeah, yeah, we'll join you when the customers are asking for it. Well it turns out the customers were asking for it, so here they are and I think it's a great thing. I think it could've gone two ways, they could have built in a bunch of integrations into Kubernetes that were only available through EKS that really made EKS a more integrated, better Kubernetes than running open source Kubernetes on top of Amazon, or they could've worked with the community, with upstream to try and make Kubernetes run great on Amazon, better on Amazon as is but then run even better when you're running it with EKS and they actually have the management on top of it. I think they decided to go that second route which is much more community friendly. A couple weeks before the announcement, they reached out to us, said hey, we noticed you had this project, it looks really interesting, we need a way to bridge IM to authenticate to Kubernetes and we like the approach that you're taking, can we work together to continue to develop this and that was the first signal to us that they wanted to really reach out and work with the community and so we're like hey, that sounds great, let's work together and get that stuff out there. It's still very early, I think EKS is GA next year, they set an aggressive goal for themselves, so I'm really looking forward to see where they take that and we're going to partner with them where it makes sense around things like authenticator. >> You mentioned we're going to a whole other level with Kubernetes and Amazon's announcement goes to the next level, you also mentioned you worked at Google Compute, Apple, all these other cool names with Google and you got Heptio, you're solving making interesting things happen with Kubernetes and you got a new class of developers coming in that have never heard of what a local director is. Infrastructure as code is happening, so you got the cloud game going on. I got to ask you, as Kubernetes starts to continue to take shape, a lot of people are trying to survive. In this technical architecture decisions, almost a tech chess game, which side of history will you be on thing going on and customers want more clarity. You have a lot of movement and customers want clarity. How do you see it continuing and what is the right path in your mind because it's looking good right now and commoditization as some say, I think is a good thing because value, there's value in interoperability, there's value in orchestration, there's value in a new class of web developer creating, solving problems with code, whether it's societal problems or other things, so there's a lot of big picture, wholistic things happening and Kubernetes kind of strikes at the heart of that. What's the right path in your mind, what's the vision you think Kubernetes should go into. >> Well I think first of all, I think change happens in the industry both fast and slow. It feels like it's been three years since Kubernetes, since we open sourced Kubernetes, and it's come a huge way since then. That happened really fast. You look at Enterprise, you look at Enterprise adoption cycles, I believe last I heard the mainframe division was a growing profit center for IBM. This stuff doesn't go away so as we see things like containers and Kubernetes and serverless and cloud, as we see these things come on the scene, it doesn't necessarily replace stuff, it augments and it adds over time so we see the mix of where people invest shift. In that way, things become established quickly, but old things go away slowly. I don't think it's going to be as quick of a shift as maybe it might seem at first. Now in terms of where the opportunities are moving forward and where we see this developing, the thing that's exciting for me is as we have, and this is something early on, talking with Brendon, he got super excited about, is as we provide new abstractions, as we provide a new toolbox, how do people start creating systems and applications that take advantage of that. I'll give you an example, distributed systems, pre-systems like Kubernetes were very difficult because not only did you have to do the thing that you wanted to do, you had to build all of this plumbing to actually get your things to talk to each other, the finds, the secure, all that stuff had to be created from scratch and those systems were rare and hard to manage and few and far between. Now with things like Kubernetes, there's a whole set of problems that you actually don't have to solve. The floor that you need, the floor is that much higher for building these systems so I think we're going to see a shift not just to cloud native, but I also think we're going to see a set of applications that are Kubernetes native. These are applications that assume that Kubernetes is the substrate that they're running on, and they take special advantage of it and I think we're going to see amazing thing happens when we really democratize the plumbing for building distributed systems. >> And that's the key, make that frictionless so if people want to go Kubernetes native, they're taking advantage, that's cool. I want to get to, to take that to the next level, as the world of IOT comes down, you can almost look at the world now as all IOT. There's no on prem and there's no cloud. If you believe this service mission unpluggable architectures, you could argue that a data center is a network point, it's an attached device to a myriad things, so you're going to need policy, the light bulb has a process in it, the wifi has wifis everywhere, so in a way, this is all going to be a grid if you will, it's going to be kind of a mesh. This is the right direction don't you think, the more services that come online, you just want to connect to them. That's the nirvana right? Are we smoking the peace pipe here too much? >> I think there's a bunch of trends that we're seeing happen there. I think with IOT, we see also a move towards edge computing, this idea of, we're going to see much more stuff happening in a more distributed manner. Whether that edge happens to be in your house or whether it's in a telecom cabinet or whether it's just mini data centers that are dropped in to parking lots here and there. That introduces a whole bunch of new problems in terms of how do you manage that stuff at scale. One of the things that I see is that we're seeing an interesting overlap between CDM providers and cloud providers, so you have cloud flare introducing their cloud workers, where you can start running actual code in their CDM nodes and that's the culmination of CDM providers over time fighting with each other to drive more and more customization. On the other hand, you have Amazon taking lambda, finding ways to actually use lambda and push that out to the edge, even into devices that are doing local machine learning. There's this overlap between these two different worlds. Then also, as we move stuff closer out to the clouds, the political situations that people deal with become that much more complex. As you start running compute in all these different countries, all of a sudden you can't necessarily go to one provider to actually deal with all of that. We're moving from this world where, when you're centered around data which is the traditional cloud, when you want to put it all in one big pile with compute around the edges, that's kind of like the traditional data center. Going with a few large providers makes a ton of sense. As we move towards a much more distributed world, it becomes a more distributed problem both in terms of how do you manage the compute, but how do you manage the relationships and how do you actually understand what's happening across all that and I think Kubernetes can be a part of that puzzle for sure, but it's not the end of the answer, there's still a lot of problems to be solved there. >> No but you get the first mile post. You can say hey, I can start orchestrating workloads and have endpoints that have services that talk to each other as the first step. >> Joe, one thing I wanted to ask you, what are the stumbling blocks? What do people need to look out for? Because most companies out there aren't Google. >> This morning at today's keynote and you can find it online, there's that cloud native road map that Dan was showing. That is an interesting thing that cuts both ways. On the one hand, it shows an enormous amount of innovation, it shows that we're seeing this explosion of interest in this world and it's really invigorating. That's from an entrepreneur's view and a technologist's view. If I'm a customer, that thing's kind of horrifying. I look at that and I say wow, I really have to understand all of this stuff to get ahead? I think the biggest stumbling block is really being able to make sense of all the noise out there. I think that noise is part and parcel of an active, innovative, chaotic ecosystem, but I think it's one of those things that makes it that much harder for enterprises and for more mainstream developers to adopt. Tim, we've been saying this for a while, for Kubernetes to be successful, we had to make it boring. That's Tim Hawkin, I think maybe was the first one to say that, but we not only had to make Kubernetes boring, we had to make that entire stack boring, we had to make cloud native boring. That's when it will have succeeded. I don't know what this conference will look like when cloud native is boring, but it'll probably be very different than. >> It'll certainly create some excitement, boring is reliable, boring is safe, boring is secure, boring is comfortable. Mark Zuckerberg once said move fast, break stuff, then he revised it to move fast and be 100% reliable. That's boring. >> Did he actually say that? >> I don't know, he shifted his narrative because that was the maverick early days when he started running at five nines it's like a whole nother ball game. >> Actually that matters. >> Joe, great to have you on theCube, thanks for sharing your awesome insight into the dynamics of the computing industry that's going cloud native, going KubeCon, and certainly Kubernetes that you helped put together with the team, it's certainly taken on a life of its own, last minute, take a minute to talk about Heptio, what you guys are working on, get the plug in. >> Yeah Heptio, we have services, support and training that we're offering to make customers successful with Kubernetes today and that's been invigorating, really getting out there and talking with folks, seeing the problems that they're hitting now versus where we want it to go. We're doing a bunch of work around open source projects, we have Heptio Arc which is a backup disaster recovery project open source, we have Sona Boy, which is a diagnostic project for running the conformance tests and it underpins the Kubernetes conformance effort. We have K Sonic which helps you configure applications and then we also have Contour, which is an ingress controller building on top of Envoy and other CNCF project and then into 2018, we're going to be offering more products and projects and services that really start targeting the special needs of larger and larger enterprises and that's where our focus is going to shift over time. >> You guys are certainly helping customers who are under pressure to add more services, including what Amazon's doing, more pronouncements, there are little announcements, some big some little, but still, the cadence of new things happening is fast at all times right now. >> I can't keep up either, nobody else can. >> We try. Two and a half hour keynote, it's ridiculous. Joe Beda here inside theCube, cofounder CTO of Heptio a hot startup, making Kubernetes interesting and exciting and reliable and boring. Not boring, we should say that. >> Oh boring's good. >> Infrastructure's good, it's theCube, bringing you all the live action from Austin, Texas, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, KubeCon and Cloud Native Con, we'll be right back after this short break.

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage, here live in Austin, Texas for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media with my co-host Stu Miniman, Next is Nigel Poulten, who's the author of the Kubernetes book, also container guru, trainer, been in the business for a long time in the community. Great to have you on for our intro. >> Thank you >> Stu, keynote, let's get down to it. What was the big highlights? >> Yeah, well, first of all John, we've officially entered KubeCon Days here. So CloudNativeCon was yesterday. We've got two more days of KubeCon. Kelsey Hightower, you know, we had him on theCUBE yesterday. Phenomenal speaker, everybody's looking forward to him. Lines to talk to him. Made sure that there was a standing ovation before and after his. Very demo heavy. I mean, you know, this group loves it. There were a lot of, you know, great pithy lines. Arguments over, you know, which is the best language, which is the best way to do things? Knocking on things like YAML. So, it was definitely a fun, geeky discussion. I'm a big Game of Thrones fan. So I loved to see season seven delivered on Kubernetes. >> What was the summary of the keynote? What was the take? >> So I think from my perspective, the summary was Kubernetes is boring. Which translates to us generally, as in it's maturing. It's something that you might want to be able to trust in your production environment, if you're an enterprise. I mean, look, as a technology guy we always think we like to know the details, the weeds. And we like to play with YAML and stuff like that. But at the end of the day, business is down and developers tend not to want to. They want a smooth pipeline. And that's boring, and so boring is good. >> Yeah, and I do want to poke at it a little bit, Nigel, I definitely want your opinion on this, because there are certain technologies we say, "Oh right, it's reached that boring phase", which means it's kind of steady state. Kubernetes is not like One Dot Nine. Coming into the show it was like, how complex it is. Oh my God, there's all these things above and below. Yin gave a really nice keynote showing kind of a layer cake there. >> Yeah. >> I think maybe the Kubernetes layer might be, it's stable enough and used, and people can use it. But this ecosystem by no means is it boring. >> No >> And there's lots of things to make out. What are you seeing? >> Totally, and it's that definition of boring, really. So I would say boring would translate into usable. But you're right, in no way is it boring in any sense. In fact, it's exciting and it's dangerous as well. >> Yeah, and ... >> So I'll give you an example, right. So Kubernetes is massively successful. I think we all grock that at the moment, okay. But it's almost potentially going to be a victim of it's own success. It's always at one of the many summits that was going on before KubeCon and CloudNativeCon started, and it was about networking and there was a bunch of guys here from big carriers and they really want to take this simple networking model that Kubernetes currently has and make it fit their needs, which would make it really complex, dare I say, almost OpenStack Neutron. (laughing) And I think there's so many people here at this conference right now that want to take Kubernetes and use it for their own purposes. And as successful as it is, and as much uptake as it's got, there is a potential danger there, I think, that it explodes out of control, and I don't want to knock OpenStack, but becomes difficult and not what we want it to be, and that's dangerous for them. >> Nigel, you bring up a great point here, because something we've been looking at is every time we abstract or make this new design model, it's "Oh well". We want to make sure the developer doesn't have to worry about that infrastructure. Clayton from Red Hat, we had him on theCUBE, and he talked about it in the keynote, boring means when I write my code I don't have to think about the infrastructure, but networking and storage. Networking some of the basis pieces are done but there's a lot of activity in that space, and storage, we're still arguing over what Container Native Storage should be, what CloudNative storage should be. So it's still to my definition, it's not boring. That's the direction, and I like it. Kind of was where we talked about invisible infrastructure. >> Yeah >> What do you see? You've got a heavy background on that side too. >> So I think I quite like this space that networking is at within Kubernetes. It's simple, and that works for me, right. Storage is certainly, it's still playing catch up there, and I think a lot of decisions still need to be made. The future, in my opinion, is still not clear there. But I think a lot of games have got to be played to say, now how far do we take networking, and how far do we take storage and things like that so that it, in the one sense doesn't balloon out of control, but on the other side you do want it to meet more use cases than just the very basic use cases. So, I mean, that plays back to my idea that that danger aspect of Kubernetes, it seems to have won in the orchestration space at the moment, but I think the road ahead, there still loads of potholes, and there's tight bends, and there's cliff edges and things that we still could fall off, and that's exciting. >> Nigel, your dangerous comment reminds me of some of the early days of V-M-ware. >> Nigel: Right >> You know, people that would get in there, they'd do some really cool things, they'd write it up, share it with the community. And absolutely, it feels like that, almost even bigger. >> Yeah, like the top layer that interfaces with the developers and things like that, that's getting pretty stable. But underneath, I mean, that is a happening place underneath right now, and I imagine it's going to be a happening place for quite a few years. >> What about service meshes and also pluggable architectures? Because that seems to be the answer to the dangerous question. Oh don't worry about it, carriers and what not. You can just build pluggable architectures, no one's going to get hurt. >> Nigel: Yeah >> Not ready for prime time? What's your thoughts? >> So I think service mesh is almost certainly in my opinion, the hot topic of the conference so far. I like this idea of it getting born and stuff, and that's good for the project. But if there's one take away, if it's something that you're not quite clued upon at the moment, go away and look into service mesh. I've got to do a lot of that myself, to be perfectly honest. But this whole idea of running like sidecar containers and what have you, inside of the pods, alongside your application to look at your ingress traffic, your incoming traffic, your outgoing traffic. It's all cool and it can add so much functionality and make it so much more usable to a lot of users. But at the same time there's not ... I don't know, right, look I'm a little bit old fashioned. I remember the days of deploying agents on servers. And we would have server bills that had agent upon agent upon agent. And we have this backlash in the industry of like, you're not bringing your product in vendor x, y or z, okay. If it deploys an agent, we're going fully agentless here. We're sick of managing all these different agents in our stack, and I wonder again, playing to the danger topic here, that like, are we going to end up having loads of these sidecar containers in our pods that are affectively the modern day agents that we then have to manage, and consume resources >> Explain the sidecar generation, it's important. Take a minute to explain the dynamic because containerization has been around for awhile, Google and everyone else knows that. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> But Docker really put it on the map. Now the commoditization of containers with Kubernetes. What's this sidecar thing about? >> Nigel: Okay >> Quick, take a minute to explain to the folks. >> Right, so in the Kubernetes world I guess the atomic unit of deployment, the equivalent of a V-M from the V-M World space would be the pod, which is effectively a container, right? But within that pod you run your application container. And I think for most people you run one container inside of that pod, it's your application, right? What we're starting to see now is, and Kubernetes has always had this ability to run multiple containers inside of a pod. Most people don't do it. And it seems that a lot of the external projects, and a lot of the third party vendors are starting to pick up on this and say, "Alright, well let's run another container "Inside of that pod". It's not your actual application and we call it a sidecar container. And it adds functionality and what have you, but is also potentially eats through resources, it makes your deployments maybe more complicated. I mean it's always a trade off, isn't it? >> Yeah >> You get additional functionality but it's never for free. >> Yeah it's overhead. Alright, talk about the customer guys. What we saw in keynote, we saw HBO on stage. How are customers using Kubernetes? Because I'm trying to put my finger on it. I love Orchestrate, I know what that does, and I understand the benefits, but how are actually people using it today? >> So I think it's a little bit like the whole container thing, right? The early adopters of the Netflix's and the HBOs and the people like that that have got large engineering teams, that have a lot of developers on staff, they're really just comfortable going and taking these new technologies, and rolling them themselves, and they've got this appetite for danger, again within their organization almost. Their risk taking organizations, right. They're all over the containers and the Kubernetes. The more traditional enterprises I think are still kicking the tires. They're still throwing out the occasional new project within the organization and saying, "Let's test the waters with this new feature "That we want to add to our main product", or "We've got something new, "Let's try containers and Kubernetes." They're certain, at least the ones that I speak to, certainly not at the phase where they're taking their legacy apps. >> HBO was using it for like traffic, identifying ingress, you mentioned that earlier, I mean basic stuff. Not a lot of heavy lifting, or is it? >> Well, I think the HBO, I mean ... How much they ran the season seven of Game of Thrones on Kubernetes. I mean, I'm sure there was some non-Kubernetes stuff in there as well, but it seemed like from the presentation pretty much, well, a lot of that stuff was running containers and Kubernetes, and lets be fair, when it comes to HBO, Game of Thrones is like their, it's their killer product at the end of the day, isn't it? And so they've taken a risk there with that. >> Yeah >> But again you know HBO, a rare... >> There's a lot of online viewers, by the way on that too. >> Yeah. >> With HBO Go. >> Oh, an insane number! But I would say compared to a traditional enterprise they're a risk taking organization. They live in the Cloud. They like living on the edge. They're willing to take risks with new technologies to push the product forward. >> Alright, so I want to get your guys' thoughts on a tweet I saw out there. "Think of Kubernetes as the colonel "For modern distributed systems. "It's not about zero ops, it's about op power tools "to unlock developer productivity." Craig McLuckie from Heptio mentioned that on stage. Really kind of rallying around Kubernetes. Thoughts on that quote? What does that mean? >> So I mean John, you know there was for a while people saying, "How do we deprecate? "Or even go to kind of noOps?" Absolutely, many of the keynotes talked about who's deploying them and who's running them. We're not talking about eliminating ops. Even when I can have a voice assistant help roll things out, they're still absolutely a major piece of who needs to run this, but the right things to the right part of the organization. >> Yeah, I think instead of using the word colonel maybe use the word Linux, you know. Looking at Kubernetes as the Linux of the Cloud, and that's not my term, I've heard other people say it. But it's open source for a start like Linux is, it's got a great thriving community of people contributing to it. You can fork it, you can do what ever you want with it, but if you're going to deploy a CloudNative application right now, then Kubernetes is that substrate. You've just got to look at what came out of re:Invent. So A-W-S is now offering a native Kubernetes hosted service, obviously Google does it, Azure does it with Microsoft. They're all picking up on this realizing that people deploying CloudNative apps, they're going to be deploying it on Kubernetes. >> Thoughts about Red Hat. I just saw Gabe Monroy, the keynote, Stu. Red Hat's contribution to hardening Kubernetes cannot be overstated. C-C OpenShift And we had Bryan Gracie on yesterday. I mean OpenShift, what a bet. Microsoft betting heavily on Kubernetes. Google obviously sees this as an opportunity. Multi-Cloud fantasies out there somewhere, but that's what customers are kind of asking for, not yet in tangible product, but this is interesting. You've got Red Hat, the king of the enterprise, OpenSource. >> Nigel: Absolutely, yeah. >> No debate about that. Microsoft and Google, old guard with Microsoft and then new guard in Google. Really if they don't throw a line at the main Cloud trend with Kubernetes, they could be left in the dust. So I see a lot of things at play. How is the Red Hat and the Kubernetes investment paying off? How do you guys see that playing out? Good strategic move, headroom to it? What comments and caller commentary on that? >> Well I think if you compare Red Hat to Microsoft, if you don't mind me doing that, Microsoft has a cash cow in Windows in the past and I think it quickly realized that the cash cow was not going to live forever, and they invested heavily in Azure. Red Hat live a lot, I guess as well, off support contracts and things like that, the Red Hat enterprise Linux. How long of a tail that has, I'm not sure. So certainly they're doing at least, they're looking in the right direction at least by investing heavily in Kubernetes. If they want to go in and be the enterprise's trusted Kubernetes partner, I think they've got a great story. They've contributed a ton to it. They're already in the door at most enterprises, and I think you couple those two things together if the enterprise is going to adopt Kubernetes at some point. I'm not saying they've go the best story, but they've got a pretty decent story. >> Alright, in the last minute I want to ask both you guys this question because it's been kind of on my mind, I've been thinking about it. Maybe I'm overstretching here but three day conference, one day to CloudNative, two days to Kubernetes, KubeCon. Why? More important? Growing community? CloudNative I think, would be probably stronger sessions. Is it because there's more emphasis on the Kubernetes? >> Kubernetes is the core, Kubernetes is what started the C-N-C-F. >> John: Yeah >> All the other projects really build off to it. I think it's pretty... >> It needs more attention. >> Kubernetes, I mean, while there's ... You know I love Kelsey's line this morning. He looked out at the audience he says, "I think everyone that's running Kubernetes "In the globe is here." So, there's jokes about how many people are actually running in production >> Yeah, they're probably here. >> So look, there's still so many people that are getting the Kubernetes 1-0-1. The whole CloudNative, all of these other projects are all building off of it. I think it's really straight forward on there. We even heard, do we call it the C-N-C-F? Do we rename it to something that's a little more Kubernetes focused? Because CloudNative gets talked about some, there's service mesh, absolutely Nigel, it was the buzz coming into the show. I hear those sessions are overflowing here. We didn't even get to talk about, there's like another alternative to Istio that's there. >> And Lou Tucker, by the way, affirmed that same thread yesterday about the service mesh. Nigel, final word for you on this segment. How big order of magnitude and important is Kubernetes? I mean given you've seen, talk about agent-ism in the old days, and all the ways that have come, that's been kind of incremental proving balls been moved down the field here and there. And some big chunk yardage, if you will, use this football analogy. How big, because I've seen Kubernetes just go from here to here. >> Yeah >> Really move the need along the community, it's galvanized. How important is Kubernetes, from an order of magnitude, when we look back a few years from now, what are we going to be saying? "Hey, remember KubeCon in 2017?" How important is Kubernetes? >> Well, can I say I think it's really early days, okay? And I like the analogy that it is the Linux of the Cloud or of CloudNative, okay? But I think there's danger in that as well because the world is changing so fast now. I mean Linux has lived for a very long time, okay. Will Kubernetes live that long or will it be replaced by something else? It probably will be, but I do feel these are early days, and I think it has got a long stretch ahead. A long stretch as in like... >> John: Yeah. >> Good four or five years. And within two to three years, you know, just about every organization in my opinion is going to have some Kubernetes in it. >> And the beginning signs of maturity's coming. Stack Wars too, all the vendors really trying to figure out, strategically it's like a 3-D chess match right now. Open source is kind of like arbiter of this, really good stuff. I think it's going to be super important. Thanks for the commentary. kicking off day two of Cube exclusive coverage here at KubeCon. CloudNativeCon was yesterday. Two days of KubeCon. We'll be back with more live coverage. From theCUBE, I'm John Furrier. Stu Miniman and Nigel Poulten after this short break. (light techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017 Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone. This is a special live coverage here in Austin, Texas with theCUBE with KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Stew Minniman. Our next guests Mike Barrett, senior project manager at Red Hat and Brian Gracely, director of strategy, Red Hat. Guys, welcome to theCUBE. Welcome back, Brian. >> Thanks. >> Thanks. >> Alright, so Red Hat. I was at re:Invent last week and they want the Red Hat stamp of approval. A lot of customers, you guys have had a huge track record in all the large enterprises. Tier 1, now with cloud gain What's going on? OpenShift has been a big momentum point for you guys Give us the update. What's the status? How are you guys taking that Red Hat stamp of approval value with OpenShift? >> Well, even if we just start from where AWS was, so we were there last week. We're seeing a ton of customers who were Red Hat enterprise Linux customers picking that up, moving it into AWS. So we're seeing that footprint migrate, which is great. We had a huge announcement with AWS around extending their services back into OpenShift through what we call the open service broker. So, basically, think about putting AWS services in your data center or at least making it virtually look like your data center. Those things themselves are huge 'cause now customers don't have to say "Is it like all cloud, public cloud, "or all private cloud?" It's like hybrid cloud is there today, right now. >> Yeah. This started for us back in 2015 I remember the first five minutes of every customer conversation was "How do you pronounce Kubernetes?" >> John: (laughs) >> And 2016 was pretty much your choice of "How do I use containers?" And then the tail end of 2016, it got exciting, right? People were doing big numbers on deployments. 2017 was an unbelievable year for us. I mean, you name the market sector we have penetrated it pretty deeply with Kubernetes technologies, so it's been a great year. >> You guys have been really, Brian, I remember when we were working together I remember, what? Three or four years ago cloud-native we were kicking it around. We were joking with Lou Tucker earlier, "Hey, three years ago. Remember in Vancouver in open stack, when we were talking about how this could really be the land grab? And we were kind of pontificating. But I got to ask you specifically, you were early on cloud-native. You guys certainly saw it coming, as you always, always do in Red Hat, but what changed in your mind? What surprised you? What happened? You kind of called it out. It played out almost exactly as you said. Are you surprised that cloud-native and the whole pass folding into... How did it turn out in your mind? >> I think what it was and it is a little bit of a surprise 'cause you're trying to think what's going to happen in the future. I think what ended up happening and we hear this from pretty much every customer is we're going to change what our user experience is going to be. So if you're Hilton Hotels today, your user experience is a mobile phone with a digital key. Those folks are using Kubernetes We're seeing banks using Kubernetes, airlines, trains. All of them are like I want to be mobile I want my user experience to be better than it was before. I want to deal with like spikes in demand and stuff. What's been really surprising is, you would've thought okay, those aren't Silicon Valley companies, but all of those companies are using Kubernetes. So the technology, the community has made it simple to use. They've adopted containers like crazy. Which has been, we've seen a little bit of that with docker but it's accelerated. That's been the big trend we've seen. People want to change their customer experience, and containers make it easier and Kubernetes makes it scalable. >> Mike, I got to get your take on this, because he's bringing up a good point about the mobile phone. Software is now the product of the company. No one goes into a bank anymore, there's tellers around sure, but the app is the interface. The software is the product. >> Mike: It is. >> It's not IT anymore. It's actually a whole new business model. I mean it sounds cliche but that's actually happening. >> Mike: For OpenShift, it's always been about developer velocity even before it was about Kubernetes. It was about helping people bring new ideas to market through software. And the interesting thing about a CADs and a PASs and that debate in the industry on which would survive. Our take was that, you can build whatever you want, if you have the right technologies and the right solution and that you shouldn't have to make that choice. If you want to just launch containers, then just launch containers. If you want to developer experience, have that developer experience, but they're not two different things. >> One of the things that's been beaten around for the last couple of years is customers want to have really, as much of the same stack in their own data center as they have in the cloud. You know talked about Brian start talking about Linux everywhere. Of course Linux is everywhere. It's been very prevalent at the edge. How much of that stack needs to be the same? How much is okay different? How does Kubernetes fit into that? Mike maybe we can start with you. >> For Kubernetes, we've been asked a lot. How do we feel about the announcements of all the cloud providers now offering to manage Kubernetes service, and we love it. There are certain like Uber and Lyft. I'm sure Uber wishes Lyft wasn't there, but in a platform technology space. You want people to gravitate towards the technology. And now that we have that debate over and so many people are offering Kubernetes. People are willing to move forward with their careers around that Kubernetes. They're willing to bring their whole clientele and their corporations to Kubernetes, and we are in a good early adopter, early mover position to really help them with that. >> Explain that a little bit more because before if I wanted Kubernetes, well I could go get OpenShift. Where cater platform, that's Kubernetes but I'm using Azure, if I'm using Google Cloud, I'm using AWS. Where do you fit? Where do they fit? How does that relationship work. >> So it's a container platform right, and containers are movable images. The thing that people forget about is part of the trick of working with containers is how do you introduce change? We just talked about how we have to introduce developer velocity. You need a hook in front of it and a user experience in front of it that helps you deal with these containers. Build them, deploy them, wake up when they change, connected to the GitHub code repositories. All these different scenarios. Kubernetes is an engine and you can put it in a truck or you can put it in a Ferrari, and we just happen to put it in OpenShift. >> I got to ask you guys, what of the point about the whole industry comes and pass all this stuff. It's interesting, you guys didn't take the bait in that debate and one of the things I said at re:Invent. Brian I'd like to get your thoughts on this question too is I said at re:Invent to Andy Jazzy. Look all the fudd around cloud specifically Amazon has been debunked. It never happened and we just kept on executing. My point was, if you pay attention to the fudd and their rhetoric in the industry, and not be practical about what's going on. You can loose sight of the value groups, so I got to ask you the question. What has been debunked about OpenShift? I'll give you a chance to say it because I've heard over the years. We've heard many come oh, OpenShift. Share your thoughts because now we have enough history say look at, you're successful. You got great customers. What's been debunked all that fudd? >> I think when it comes down to is there's a lot of companies who get wrapped up in our technology is going to change the world. You need to adapt to our technology, whether it was a platform or a container thing. We got humbled. We got humbled about three or four years ago because the original OpenShift while it was great, it was simple for developers. Just was not getting the adoption that we wanted. We made a huge choice to say we're going Kubernetes. That was crazy back then. Now it was crazy to think you were going to partner with Google, who had never done Open Source in the open before. They were a cloud, we were a software provider like but we wanted the technology hook, line and sinker, and then we were really pragmatic with customers. Mike spends a huge amount of his time, going out and talking to customers going what do you want to do. I think when you do that and Amazon is the same way right, Andy says the same thing like listen to your customers. When you listen to customers, they tell you their problems and you're not religious about the technology and you're willing to make changes like that's how you can be successful and ultimately that's how OpenShift evolved. We embraced Kubernetes when the other thing wasn't working and now it's given us a huge advantage. >> Mike give us some color to that because you guys didn't get caught up with OpenShift into trying to line up with the industry rhetoric at the time. You just got down and dirty, and I bet on Kubernetes, by the way great bet. Hey what are customer's saying? What are the (indistinct speaking) workers? When customers talk, they don't say I want a pass layer. They don't say that but what do they say? How did you get there? >> At the end of the day, it's true that they want a application right. They want a service, they wanted to deploy a service, but the nuance to that is that how you deliver the platform will dictate the application or architecture that you're allowed to have. And what was happening in the market at the time it was a very narrow scope or types of apps that they were trying to provide. What we found was that we have a very large green field environment in those customers that are revenue generating apps. And they had a different application pattern than this micro services and this pure cloud-native. You always want to be able to do both, and we were the only one in the market that was helping you do both. Great and less super, congratulations. I want to get that out, I think you guys have a great accomplishment that's good job with the two days at good spot. Results, obviously is what they are but going forward where are we today. What's next? What's happening? I heard in the key note. I didn't hear several. I heard pluggable architectures and I heard service mesh. Okay you got my attention, what does that mean? I actually wrote down service mesh. So now that's the big thing. Is it going to redefine, reimagine? So these are cool concepts, how did that relate to OpenShift? >> Well from a pluggable perspective right, there was a time when people said, "I want to build a structure platform, "make it simple to get stuff." That model is blown up. That's where Kubernetes is gone. Make everything composable right, if you want like OpenShift brings together a lot but it's pluggable. You can integrate with a ton of the people that are here for customer choice, and then what we're learning is people are saying I'm learning how to build these distributed applications. I'm learning how to build them. But I need help, it's very hard to translate what you can do in Silicon Valley to what you can do in Cleveland or Austin or Boston or something. And so things like service meshes and STO and all these things are basically saying let me give you enough of a framework to build these cool applications. Don't make your developers have to do so much. Build some things into Kubernetes. Build them around this distributor architecture. Make it easier so that when the business goes, "Hey I want to try something new." developers don't go, aww I got to reinvent the wheel. It's like, oh there's a bunch of scaffolding there. I can build a building from that. >> And you guys have a product there, a state of the art. >> We do, obviously everything we do is going to be upstream. So we've been working very heavily with STO. We've been working with Onvoy which is coming out of Lyft. That's the cool thing right. Technology coming out of Lyft is now in the open source community. We can use it to help banks. We can use it to help insurance companies, like that's what's going on there. >> Mike one of the things we were looking at coming to this show is talk about complexity in the space. So many projects, how do you balance having an opinionated solution that hopefully helps customers through some of the main things verses giving them the flexibility to meet what their business needs. >> Yeah I think Brian touched on it and that's at the essence why Kubernetes is so successful as an open source community. If you look at any component of it, it is layerable, it's pluggable, it has defined APIs and interfaces where you can remove stuff. And that allows different businesses to come in and be extremely successful in the ecosystem without taking out the entire platform. And that API compatibility, those folks are what we look for and what we're offering to our customers. If our customer is invested in say NSX networking. They can use NSX networking with OpenShift. There's just a variability of mix and match. I think the last 12 months, 18 months have told us like opinionated, went too far. I mean essentially everybody who's made announcement on Kubernetes said, yeah we tried opinionated, didn't work. And that's where we are today, people have come back around to composable and we've seen it for three or four years, and that's what customer's want. They want it to be simpler but they still want some flexibility whether it's a vendor they want to work with or just a deployment model they want to work with. So you guys probably have more customers than almost anyone in this space. Any trends or data you can share as to what are the most success customers doing. What pitfalls should you avoid? >> The leading sectors for us so far has been government surprisingly, we provide an SE Linux layer on top that most people don't and that's very attracting to those types of customers. After that financial services, insurance industry in particular. Pharmaceutical type, an awesome trend right now is the energy around Kubernetes for HPC and GPU type computing. That's attracting oil and gas, that's attracting marketing analysis. >> Yeah there's a bunch around planes, trains and automobiles and here's what's cool about it. We'll look at BMW. BMW was working on next generation apps in their cars and then we look at Volvo, and Volvo is looking at how do you modernize their existing supply chain to be able to either just have a better sales experience. So same industry attacking different parts of their install base and so forth. So that for us has been really interesting. One day, you'll talk to a company that wants to build a mobile app and reshape their interface. And the next time, the next one wants to rebuild their back office system and that's what OpenShift has been able to do and have been successful. >> Mike Barrett, Brian Gracely, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Great to have you on. Obviously Red Hat continues to be a leader in open source, everyone contributed across the board. From day one and great success on OpenShift. Good bet on Kubernetes. >> Thank you. >> Nice to see those bets come home isn't it. >> Absolutely. >> (indistinct speaking) meet a lot of naysayers at the beginning. Love Kubernetes, good job, congratulations. Live coverage here at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. I'm John Furrier. Stew Minniman live. After this short break, be right back. (uptempo techno music)

[Electronic Music] >> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. Hello everyone. Welcome to this special presentation of theCUBE here in San Francisco, live for two days of wall-to-wall coverage for Cisco Systems inaugural developer event, called DevNet Create. The hashtag is #DevNetCreate. This is a new opportunity for Cisco, a new event. Again, inaugural event. Peter, I'd love to go through all the first-time events, because you never know if it's going to be the last event. Inaugural event, but really Cisco has a very successful DevNet developer program, all Cisco. This is a new effort to go out and talk to cloud developers in the DevOps community. This is SiliconANGLE's two days of coverage of Cisco's foray into the DevOps world. Really bringing app dynamics and all their great stuff above top of the stack together. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Peter Burris. The next two days, live coverage. Peter, big story here is that Cisco is moving up the stack, because they are the leader in networking. They have been for years. We've been joking on theCUBE for many months now, plumbers are turning into machinists. Machinists are being automated away by machines. The value of the network for infrastructure and code becomes super paramount now that automation is starting to happen at the application layer, where data is being used for value purposes to create new experiences for users. I think this is an important story. Here, for Cisco Systems as they move out of the network guys, plumbers, network box guys, who have been incumbent data center presence, as well as powering the biggest, and basically the internet. This is a big story. What is your analysis? What's your take? What's your view of Cisco's DevNet Create opportunity? >> Well, I think there's three things we should be looking for over the next couple of days, John. The first one is the very, very big strategic picture is that the world wants to better understand how to program the internet. Now, if you think about it from a computer science standpoint, the internet is still a computer. And we're still trying to find those ways where we can apply any process, any data, any time, any person, anywhere. Now, there are some physical limitations of being able to do that, but the basic model for how we're going to do internet scale computing still isn't obvious. It still isn't clear. In many respects, the cloud is an approximate to that, and we'll get there, and Cisco's going to have a major role to play. On a tactical level, one of the reasons why Cisco has been so successful and remains so successful in the networking space is because of this enormous body of experts that are still using the Cisco Command Line Interface to set up routers, to do configuration of the network, to do an enormous amount of work down in the lower levels inside the pipes. Now, that group also has to be modernized along with the technology. And Cisco wants to bring those people along. And having them become full members in this whole DevOps transition is going to be really crucial, not only to them and their businesses, but also Cisco. And I think you mentioned the third one. On a very practical, reality level, Cisco needs to bring AppDynamics out to a position of, I don't want to say primacy, but certainly importance within the overall Cisco ecosystem. And so this show is going to be one of the ways to make progress on that. >> And Peter, I got to say, the research that you're doing at wikibon.com, for the folks watching, go to wikibon.com. Peter's been leading the research team there and really has some amazing research. Key stakes in the grounds of the two big waves that are happening: cloud computing, aka DevOps and other things, and the role of data, data science, whatever you want to call it. Data in cloud. Peter, the wave that's hitting, it's musical chairs. And the music stops and you're a big player like Cisco, and you don't have a play in cloud or data, you're screwed. And so it's clear to me that with the AppDynamics acquisition of Cisco, again, a foray into establishing the relationship between applications and code of the network really gives them a unique opportunity to add a lot of value and have a big seat at the table of those next two waves. >> Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, John. In fact, the research we're doing is very very compelling and starts to point to the idea that we used to have hardware as infrastructure, now we're doing, or hardware-defined infrastructure, and now everyone's in this grip of software-defined infrastructure, which is really important and will be here for quite some time. But as you start thinking about the real asset that's going to dictate how digital business works, how businesses get reconfigured, how they re-institutionalize the work that they need to do, and how infrastructure ultimately gets deployed, in many respects, it's time to start thinking in terms of data-defined infrastructure. And it's a term that we're starting to play with inside Wikibon to see how far that actually goes. But I think it's got a lot of prescriptive potency to it. That the idea is, increasingly, your digital business is going to be function of where your data is, what you can do with it, how fast, all those other things. And this notion of data as the asset that ultimately guides and shapes the characteristics of what customers want and what businesses can do is going to be come increasingly important. And this conference and the people here are absolutely part of that change. >> The reason why I like this event and why I'm here and why we're doing this small little event is that I think this is a tell sign, a canary in the coal mine of what's coming on this big wave. And I'll give you an example. I watched Cisco dominate the internet generation because they connected the networks together. They moved and created great value in connecting offices and then ultimately, inner networking, the rest is history. We are now in the next seminal moment of internet scale going cloud and data. So to me, there are two main storylines that I'm watching and I want to get your reaction to on this. One is customer-facing digital transformation. Every customer is trying to figure out how to transform, and Cisco is no- >> Peter: Every business. >> Every business is trying to figure out or Cisco's customers or potential customers have to transform and be a better business. Look no further than the Ford CEO being fired after less than five years on the job. How the hell can you transform a company in four years? You can't. Pressure, stocks down from 39%, he's ousted by Wall Street. Now, this is the pressure of the real world. Two, the notion of cloud computing and machine learning and AI, the application-specific goodness of DevOps infrastructure and code is bringing up the issue of automation. Jobs going away. So, two major threads: growth, with digital transformation or Cisco's customers. And two, the fear that what will cloud do for my job? It's the number one question asked in our crowd chats, in our conversations on theCUBE is, hey look, there's a fire going on around us. Machines are going to take over our jobs. There's going to be a further gap between the haves and have-nots. As Sarbjeet Johal just mentioned on Twitter, as I tweeted to Jas I think, but it's come up on all the crowd chats. Jobs going away as an impact, personally I think they're going to shift but that's my opinion. Your reaction. Digital transformation and automation, machine learning, these things automating away jobs. >> Well, let's start with the second one because in many respects, it's the practical test of what happens with that first question about digital transformation. First off, I agree with you. I think we'll see tasks go away and jobs reconfigure. And a better way of thinking about this is businesses have historically institutionalized the work that they perform around the assets that they regard as most important. In a very practical sense within IT, you can track the history of IT by watching how CIOs and businesses configure the work of people within IT around the assets that the businesses regard as most valuable. When a mainframe costs 50 or 70 million dollars, not surprisingly, that's what you configure around. As you move into the client-server domain, it became the PCs and the applications. >> John: And the data center. >> And the data center. Now we're moving to datas and assets and work will get re-institutionalized that as well. But data has some very specific and interesting characteristics as an asset that maybe we'll get into. But I think what it really points up is not that we're going to see people suddenly being thrown out of work. If you got knowledge and you can apply that knowledge and you can work with other people, the world is going to continue to find a place for you to make money and to add some value. So, that's not to say that this notion of being thrown out of work isn't important, is not going to have a major implication. But more likely, what we're going to see is data as an asset is going to force a rethinking of how we institutionalize work, which is going to force a rethinking of what tasks do and do not create value and what we can automate, and that's going to give people an opportunity to learn or not, and if they don't learn, yeah, maybe you are out on your own. >> We're old enough with our gray hairs to say that we've seen some waves before, and I broke into the business with a computer science degree in the late 80s. So I was on the back end of that punch card and mainframe generation. I watched people clutch on to the mainframe and the jobs just did go, they went away. And there were a few people who did maintenance and they kept their jobs and it become a political football, and people got laid off, but they got shifted. They got shifted. They got shifted to the minicomputer and then the data center. So, the same exact thing's happening and this is why I like this show. Because Cisco has to move from those plumbers, the networking guys, the guys who were the A-1 resource. Networks were the kingpins of the enterprise. They ran the show. They ran the networks. Tier 1 personnel now being commoditized. And my advice to my friends in the networking business, and this is why the show exists, you got to shift your shills to the next value proposition. That's data. By the way, it's still the internet, so I think they're going to be in good shape. If you're a networking guy, you got to go to the next network effect. That's not necessarily boxes. It's still packets. It's still policy. It's still good work. >> It's still security. So let's think about what you just said, John. That you move from a world where I perform the tasks on a particular set of Cisco boxes, to I am responsible for insuring that distributed data works. That's not subtle. I mean, it's major transformation but we are going to have an enormous need for people that can handle and deal with distributed data. I'm going to come back to something you said earlier. And that was the minicomputer revolution. You know, I've been around for a long time too. I came in just before you. What killed the minicomputer was not the microprocessor. People could easily put microprocessors into minicomputers. What killed the minicomputer was that digital had their own proprietary network. IBM had SNA down at the System/36 AS 100, et cetera. You had Prime and DG. Everybody had their own propriety network to handle what they did from a business standpoint, from a business value standpoint within the businesses. What killed the minicomputer world was TCP/IP and this company, Cisco. >> John: Yep. >> Now the question is, >> John: 3Com was involved in that so let's not-- >> What's that? 3Com was involved. >> Peter: Oh, 3Com, absolutely. >> 3Com and Cisco, the internetworking class. >> But it was this company in particular that said, "We're going to flatten all those networks, put them into TCP/IP. Here's the routers." 3Com and Banyon and a whole bunch of others were very important. Coming back to this show at this moment right now, we also see on the horizon a focus on cloud and not data. A focus on your supplier and their wants and needs and not data is going to lead to a world where intercloud connectivity and computing is going to be a major challenge. >> John: That's ironic. Intercloud is ironic because I talked to Lou Tucker 3 years ago, OpenStack Cisco CTO, and internetworking, parallel to interclouding. Now, Cisco-- >> Peter: It's even worse. It's more complex. >> Cisco canceled the interclouding initiative but if you look at where this is going, to that point, it's semantics. Multicloud is the hottest trend right now because hybrid IT, hybrid cloud is the gateway to true multicloud. And I think you're doing a lot of research on that. But let's talk about that. With TCP/IP did for internetworking, you could argue that data and cloud does for multicloud. >> Well I would say that somebody, the data becomes the determinant. The data becomes the most interesting thing to worry about. And then the question is, who's going to do that? Are Amazon and Microsoft and Google going to get together and say here's a set of cloud standards that will ensure that you have seamless end-to-end computing? Maybe? Probably not. Will OpenStack emerge out of RedHat as kind of the universal, well, it's not happening. Will Oracle be successful at saying, "Oh no, forget all that stuff. Bring it all inside oracle."? Probably not. >> John: Here's a question. Go ahead. >> This notion of end-to-end is going to be really crucial to a business, really crucial to architects, and really crucial to development. And how you handle that end-to-end is something that has to start emerging. The answers to those questions have to start emerging out of conferences like this. >> And Cisco certainly has to make this move now. Otherwise, they'll be driftwood if they don't get out >> Peter: That's right. in front of that next wave and ride this wave. But here's what's interesting. They call this the IOT Cloud Developer Conference, where application meets infrastructure. Kind of clever wording but very specific in the wording. And I want to unpack that and get your reaction. AppDynamics coalescing with Cisco's network knowledge, Okay? Because some people are like, "Oh, networking guys, how could they be DevOps guys? They're just configuring networks. They're not relevant." Here's the issue. IOT is a network issue. So you do a lot of IOT research. So, IOT, I would still classify as in that network pool of talent and domain expertise. Now, AppDynamics, which Cisco had acquired, brings the application stack to the table. So, you got the collision between AppDynamics and classic Cisco DNA into a melting pot. (laughs) This is a huge opportunity. And I wanted to get your reaction. How important is IOT, and how important is the AppDynamics component for this new vision of Cisco? >> IOT is essential. AppDynamics, they have to make it important, and that's on Cisco to make it important quite frankly. And again, that's one of the things that the show has to do. But you know it's interesting, John, as you mention that, let's unpack it even a little bit further. You said it's a networking issue and you're right. Network's clearly part of the component. I mentioned earlier, it's a distributed data issue, where the networks is a major impact on that. We might even say it's a distributed application issue. The point is, we are still in the midst of creating the language that we're going to use to describe how to approach and solve these problems. That hasn't been done yet. I mean, people say, oh yeah. Let's talk about blockchain and security. Or let's talk data gravity, or all these other concepts we're throwing around out there. We need more precision. We need more conventional agreement, consensus. There's a lot of work that this industry has to do to really address the challenges that Cisco and the people at this conference face as they try, not only to ensure their relevance looking forward, but very importantly, to solve these extremely complex problems of how we're going to dramatically expand the distribution of function and the distribution of data while at the same time increase things like near real-time. I like to say for example, John. I like to say that the edge is not a place. The edge is a time. That at the end of the day, what's most important is can you process something in the time envelope required and the place is just a way of measuring that. These are all major challenges that Wikibon research is focused on, but also folks at this conference are going to have to address if we're going to solve that next generation of business opportunities. >> That's Peter Burris, head of research at SiliconANGLE media and also general manager of Wikibon.com. Check out the research. A lot of great stuff going on. Digital transformation. The valuation of data and certainly cloud computing and the infrastructure and the impact for customers. Check it out at wikibon.com. I'm John Furrier and we're about to kick off two days of wall-to-wall coverage with Cisco as they put their foot in the water in the cloud DevOps developer community for IOT and applications. It's where applications meets infrastructure. Infrastructure is code. We'll be right back more coverage. Stay with us for two days at Cisco DevNet Create. [Electronic Music]

>> Narrator: From Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from it's ecosystem partners. (upbeat music) >> Hi, and we're back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is SilconANGLES production of the Cube, here at DockerCon 2017, Austin, Texas. Happy to have on the program Kiran Kamity, who was CEO of ContainerX which was acquired by Cisco. And you're currently the senior director and head of container products at Cisco. And also joining us is Brad Wong, who is the director of product management at Docker. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. >> Brad: Thanks for having us. [Kiran] Thank you, Stu. >> So Kiran, talk a little bit about ContainerX, you know, bring us back to, why containers, you know why you help start a company with containers, and when to be acquired by a big company like Cisco. >> Yeah, it was actually late 2014 is when Pradeep and I, my co-founder from ContainerX, we started brainstorming about, you know, what do we do in the space and the fact that the space was growing, and my previous company called RingCube, which has sold to Citrix, where we had actually built a container between 2006 and 2010. So we wanted to build a management platform for containers, and it was in a way there was little bit of an overlap with Docker Datacenter, but we were focusing on mostly tendency aspects of it. Bringing in concepts like viamordi rs into containers et cetera. And we were acquired by Cisco about eight months ago now, and the transition in the last eight months has been fantastic. >> Great, and Brad, you're first time on the cube, so give us your background, what brought you to Docker? >> Yeah, so actually before Docker I was at actually, a veteran of Cisco, interestingly enough. Many different ventures in Cisco, most recently I was actually part of the Insieme Networks team, focusing on the software defined networking, and Application Centric Infrastructure. Obviously I saw a pretty trend in the infrastructure space, that the future of infrastructure is being led by applications and developers. With that I actually got to start digging around with Docker quite a lot, found some good interest, and we started talking, and essentially that's how I ended up at Docker, to look at our partner ecosystem, how we can evolve that. Two years ago now, actually. >> I think two years ago Docker networking was a big discussion point. Cisco's been a partner there, but bring us up to speed if you would, both of you, on where you're engaging, on the engineering side, customer side, and the breadth and depth of what you're doing. >> You're right, two years ago, networking was in quite a different place. We kicked it off with acquiring a company back then called SocketPlane, which helped us really define-- >> Yeah and we know actually, ---- and ----, two alums, actually I know those guys, from the idea to starting the company, to doing acquisition was pretty quick for you and for them. >> Right, and we felt that we really needed to bring on board a good solid networking DNA into the company. We did that, and they helped us define what a successful model would be for networking which is why they came up with things like the container networking model, and live network, which then actually opened the door for our partners to then start creating extensions to that, and be able to ride on top of that to offer more advanced networking technologies like Contiv for example. >> Contiv was actually an open source project that was started within Cisco, even before the container was acquisitioned. Right after the acquisition happened, that team got blended into our team and we realized that there were some really crown jewels in Contiv that we wanted to productize. We've been working with Docker for the last six months now trying to productize that, and we went from alpha to beta to g a. Now Contiv is g a today, and it was announced in a blog post today, and it's actually 100% open-source networking product that Cisco TAC and Cisco advanced services have offered commercial support and services support. It's actually a unique moment, because this is the fist 100% open-source project that Cisco TAC has actually offered commercial support for, so it's a pretty interesting milestone I think. >> I think also with that, we also have it available on Docker store as well. It's actually the first Docker networking plug-in that it's been certified as well. We're pretty also happy to have that on there as well. >> Yeah. >> Anything else for the relationship we want to go in beyond those pieces? >> We also saw that there was a lot of other great synergies between the two companies as well. The first thing we wanted to do was to look at how we can also make it a lot better experience for joint customers to get Docker up and running, Docker Enterprise Edition up and running on infrastructure, specifically on Cisco infrastructure, so Cisco UCS. So we also kicked off a series of activities to test and validate and document how Docker Enterprise Edition can run on Cisco UCS, Nexus platforms, et cetera. We went ahead with that and a couple months later we brought out, jointly, to our Cisco validated designs for Docker Enterprise Edition. One on Cisco UCS infrastructure alone, and the other one jointly with NetApp as well, with the FlexPod Solution. So we're also very very happy with that as well. >> Great. Our community I'm sure knows the CVD's from what they are out there. UCS was originally designed to be the infrastructure for virtualized environments. Can you walk me through, what other significant differences there or anything kind of changing to move to containers versus what UCS for virtualized environment. >> The goal with that, UCS is esentially considered a premium kind of infrastructure server infrastructure for our customers. Not only can they run virtual environments today, but our goal is as containers become mainstreamed, containers evolved to being a first-class citizen alongside VM. We have to provide our customers with a solution that they need. And a turnkey solution from a Cisco standpoint is to take something like a Docker stack, or other stacks that our customer stopped, such as Kubernetes or other stacks as well, and offer them turnkey kind of experience. So with Docker Data Center what we have done is the CVD that we've announced so far has Docker Data Center, and the recipe provides an easy way for customers to get started with USC on Docker Data Center so that they get that turnkey experience. And with the MTA program that was announced, today at the key note. So that allows Cisco and Docker to work even more closely together to have not just the products, but also provide services to ensure that customers can completely sort of get started very very easily with support from advanced services and things like that. >> Great, I'm wondering if you have any customer examples that you can talk through. If you can't talk about a specific, logo, maybe you can talk about. Or if there are key verticals that you see that you're engaging first, or what can you share? >> We've been working joint customer evals, actually a couple of them. Once again I don't think we can point out the names yet. We haven't fully disclosed, or cleared it with their Prs Definitely into financials. Especially the online financials, a significant company that we've been working with jointly that has actually adopted both Contiv, and is actually seeing quite a lot of value in being able to take Docker, and also leverage the networking stack that Contiv provides. And be able to not just orchestrate networking policies for containers, but the other thing that they want to do is to have those same policies be able to run on cloud infrastructure, like EWS for example. So they obviously see that Docker is a great platform to be enable their affordability between on premises and also public cloud. But at the same time be able to leverage these kind of tools that makes that transition, and makes that move a lot easier so they don't have to re-think their security networking policies all over again. That's been actually a pretty used case I thought of the joint work that we did together with Contiv. >> Some of the customers that we've been talking to in fact we have one customer that I don't think I'm supposed say the name just yet, but we've drollled it out, has drolled out Contiv with the Docker on time. In five production data centers already. And these are the kind of customers that actually take to advanced networking capabilites that Contiv offers so that they can comprehensive L2 networking, L3 networking. Their monitoring pools that they currently use will be able to address the containers, because the L2, the L3 networking capabilities allows each container to have an IP address that is externally addressable, so that the current monitoring tools that you use for VMs et cetera can completely stay relevant, and be applicable in the container world. If you have an ACI fabric that continues to work with containers. So those are some of the reasons why these customers seem to like it. >> Kiran, you're relatively new into Cisco, and you were a software company. Many people they still think of Cisco as a networking company. I've heard people derogatory it's like, "Oh they made hardware define networking when they rolled out some of this stuff." Tell us about, you talk about an open source project that you guys are doing. I've talked to Lou Tucker a number of times. I know some of the software things you guys are doing. Give us your viewpoint as to your new employer, and how they might be different than people think of as the Cisco that we've known for decades. >> Cisco is, has of course it has, you know, several billion dollars of revenue coming in from hardware and infrastructure. And networking and security have been the bread and the butter for the company for many many years now But as the world moves to Cloud-Native becoming a first class citizen, the goal is really to provide complete solutions to our customers. And if you think of complete solutions, those solutions include things like networking, thing like security. Including analytics, and complete management platforms. At the same time, at the end of the day, the customers want to come to peace with the fact that this is a multi-cloud world Customers have data centers on premises, or on hosted private cloud environments. They have workloads that are running on public clouds. So with products like cloud center, our goal is to make sure that whatever they, the applications that they have, can be orchestrated across these multiple clouds. We want to make sure that the pain points the customers have around deploying whole solutions include easy set-up of products on infrastructure that they have, and that includes partnerships like UCS, or running on ACI or Nexus. We want to make sure that we give that turnkey experience to these customers. We want to make sure that those workloads can be moved across and run across these different clouds. That's where products like cloud center come in. We want to make sure that these customers have top grade analytics, which is completely software. That's were the app dynamics acquisition comes in. And we want to make sure that we provide that turnkey experience with support in terms of services. With our massive services organization, partners, et cetera. We view this as our job is to provide our customers what they need in terms of the end solution that they're looking for. And so it's not just hardware, it's just a part of it. Software, services, et cetera, complimented. >> Alright, Brad last question that I have for you in the keynote yesterday, I couldn't count how many times the word ecosystem was used. I think it was loud and clear that everybody there I think it was like, you know, Docker will not be successful unless it's partners are successful, kind of vice versa. When you look at kind of the product development piece of things, how does that resonate with you and the job that you're doing? >> We basically are seeing Docker become more of a, more and more of a platform as evidenced by yesterdays keynote. Every platform, the only way that platform's going to be successful is if we can do great, we have great options for our partners, like Cisco, to be able to integrate with us on multiple different levels, not just on one place. The networking plug-in is just one example. Many many other places as well Yesterday we announced two new open source initiatives. Lennox kit and also the movi project. You can imagine that there's probably lots of great places where partners like Cisco can actually play in there, not just only in the service fees, but maybe also in things like IOT as well, which is also a fast-emerging place for us to be. And all the way up until day two type of monitoring, type of environment as well where we think there's a lot of great places where once again, options like app dynamics, tetration analytics can fit in quite nicely with how do you take applications that have been migrated or modernized into containers, and start really tracking those using a common tool set. So we think that's really really good opportunities for our ecosystem partners to really innovate in those spaces, and to differentiate as well. >> Kiran, I want to give you the final word, take-aways that you want the users here, and those out watching the show to know about, you know, Cisco, and the Docker environment. >> I want to let everybody know that Cisco is not just hardware. Our goal is to provide turnkey complete solutions and experiences to our customers. And as they walk through this journey of embracing Cloud-Native workloads, and containerized workload there's various parts of the problem, that include all the way from hardware, to running analytics, to networking, to security, and services help, and Cisco as a company is here to offer that help, and make sure that the customers can walk away with turnkey solutions and experiences. >> Kiran and Brad, thank you so much for joining us. We'll be back with more coverage here. Day two, DockerCon 2017, you're watching theCube.