>> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles it's The Cube covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're here live in L.A. for the Linux Foundation Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, your host, with Stu Miniman, my co-host. Our next guest Jim Zemlin, Executive Director of the Linux Foundation, runs the whole show. Welcome back to The Cube, great to see you. >> Thank you, thank you. Runs the whole show is a little bit of an overstatement. >> Well, certainly great keynote up there, I mean, a lot of things coming together. Just some structural things. Let's get the update on what's going on structurally with the Linux Foundation, one, and then two, the keynote today, this morning, really kind of laid out the state of the union, if you will, and all cylinders are pumping, no doubt, on open source. So give the quick update on kind of what's going on with the Linux Foundation and then let's get in some of the trends inside the open source movement. >> Yeah, I mean, our organization has grown quite a bit in the last few years as evident by all the people who are here at this event. But our focus is really on the projects that are important to, you know, the stability, security, and growth of the global internet and of large-scale systems. And when you look at Linux or Node.js or things like our networking projects which are powering the production networks for 3 1/2 billion people, what we're really focused on is making sure those projects are healthy, making sure that they have great developers who write incredible code, that it's used to power things like China Mobile's network or AT&T's production network. And then, those firms are employing the developers who then write more code, you get more solutions, products, services based on Linux or whatever. More reinvestment, lather, rinse, repeat. It's that cycle we're trying to promote. >> So before we get into some of the stats, structurally, I know this show, we've Cube comments out there, clarify the structure. How the shows are rolling out, how are you guys putting together the big-tent events, and how developers can get involved in the specific events across, but now there's a ton of projects. But just at a high level, what's the structure? >> Yeah, so, you know, and I'll throw out a few stats. We have about 25,000 developers that attend all of our events which are all over the world. But we have our Open Source Summit which is really sort of a summit to come together and talk about these big-picture issues around sustainability to allow for cross-project collaboration. We have project-specific events so the CloudNativeCon, KubeCon event which is coming up in Austin which is going to be blow-out, you know, I'm expecting thousands of people. I think probably three, 4,000 people. >> And even more platinum sponsors than I've ever seen on any project before so huge demand. >> It's crazy, yeah. Yeah, you know, get it while it's good, right? All these things kind of go up and down but they're on the upswing. So we have project-specific and then in the networking sector, we have have the Open Networking Summit which is sort of similar to the Open Source Summit but much more focused on networking technology, SDN, and NFD, and that is going to be in L.A. next year and we'll have a U.S. event and then a European and an Asian. >> And this show's purpose is what? How would you position the Open Source Summit? >> The Open Source Summit is where all the projects come together and do cross-pollination. I mean, the idea here is that if you're just always in your silo, you can't actually appreciate what someone else is doing that may improve your project. >> And Jim, there's a couple of events that came together to make this 'cause it was LinuxCon, ContainerCon, and MesosCon is also co-resident so. >> Exactly, so we just decided after a while that all these events could come together and again, this cross-pollination of ideas. >> And they kind of did, they're just different hotels in Seattle last time. >> Yeah, exactly. That's enough, it's just going to be Open Source-- >> It's a big-tent event. >> It's a big-tent event and it really reflects how open source has gone mainstream in a way that I don't think any of us would've predicted even maybe five, six years ago. >> It's pretty massive. Just to quote some stats. 23 million plus open source developers, what you shared onstage there, want to get to your keynote. 41 billion lines of code. 1,000 plus new projects a day. 10,000 new versions pushed per day. 64 million repos on GitHub. Just amazing growth so this kind of points to obviously the rising tide is floating all boats. I made a comment, I tweeted, in the spirit of the joke of standing on the shoulders of giants before you, it's like, what shoulders are we standing on now? Because there's so many projects. Is there going to be like a legacy like the dual-star, badge values, been around for a while? You mentioned old news and you bring up Linus onstage. I mean, some projects are older, more mature, Bruce Wayne, Tier One, meat and potatoes, some got a little bit more flair and fashion to it, if you will. So you got new dynamics going on. Share your thoughts on this. >> Yeah, I mean, it's like the shoulders you're standing on are almost like stage-diving, right? Where it's just lots of people's shoulders that you're really bouncing around on. But the idea here, and what we really focus on, is what are the most important projects in the world and how do we make sure we sustain those projects. So those are the ones that you're going to generally see focused on here. Like, you know, if you've got two people contributing to one small repo for a very small project, that's probably not something that's going to be super high-profile here. But what we're trying to do is bring together sort of the big projects and also the key contributors. You know, if you look at the distribution of contribution, and this is the thing, I think, if you're a developer listening to something like this, someone who gives just one commit to a project to solve some kind of problem they might have, that's the vast majority of people. Somebody who does maybe five to 10 commits, you know, a little bit less, quite a bit less. The vast majority of code, people who give 25 or more commits to a project, small group of folks, they're here. >> I know Stu wants to ask a question, one final question on the growth 'cause this kind of reminds me of sports as we're like the ESPN of tech here for the community. If you look at the growth, you put a slide in there by SourceClear that show the projection, by 2026, at 400 million libraries, putting it today around, I think, 64 million. This is going to be like an owners meeting. It's kind of like they get together, this event because you are going to have so many projects 'cause this is kind of the vibe you got going on in here. The scale is massive, this is going to be almost like the owners meeting, the teams. Expansion's going to be coming, you have to deal with that, that's challenging. >> We're ready to grow, I mean, we've been working on systems and staffing and processes to help scale with that. You know, we take seriously that that code runs modern society. It keeps us private or doesn't as we saw with the Equifax hack which was a CVE in an open source project and we want to be ready to up our game. Let's say we could have secure coding class at this very event for the greatest developers who are working on our most important projects in the world. Would that make all of our lives better? Yes, absolutely. >> Yes, absolutely would. Yeah and you want to enable that, that's where you're going. >> That's exactly where we're going. >> Jim, the quote that jumped out at me that you gave in the keynote was, projects with sustainable ecosystems are the ones that matter. How do we balance all this? I heard in, you know, Linus's Q and A it was, look, individual's important but companies are important. You put up a slide and said, there's thousands and thousands of projects, sometimes we're going to get some really awesome stuff from three people contributing code versus the massive ecosystem with all the platinum providers so, it's always in technology, it's an and and it's very nuanced but how do we get our arms around this? How do we know where to focus? >> It's worth going back in time to understand where the future is going and study innovation theory, you know, Eric von Hippel at MIT, or Karim Lakhani at Harvard Business School. And you look at the framework, which is, you have corporations who underwrite a lot of development by hiring developers who have an equal importance in this and then users of that software. So those are your main constituents and sometimes they're the same people, right, or the same things. They're not mutually exclusive, they're actually self-reinforcing if you get the formula right and you make sure that the project is in good shape so that it gives confidence to industry or society that, hey, we can count on that. I think Heartbleed and OpenSSL maybe rattled people's cages like, hey, can we count on, not just this project, but can we count on open source period? So we spent a ton of time working with that project to provide them millions in resources, audited their code, expanded their testing, and we learned a hell of a lot about how to support these communities in the most important developer projects in the world and create that positive feedback loop, that's what we're doing. >> Yeah and Jim, it's, as an analyst, one of the things we're always asked is, right, how do I choose the right technology? Whereas companies now are contributing here so it's not just I'm putting dollars in, I'm putting manpower into this. And the foundations sometimes get a lot of lung from people, saying it's like, oh well, people throw money and what do they get out of it? I liked what I heard today, you talking about this cycle, and maybe talk to our audience a little bit about CHAOSS which I though was a nice, tongue-in-cheek acronym to say how you're actually going to bring order to the chaos that we see in the open source world. >> I'm going to come to this but I want to answer one quick question about the roles of organizations like ours. We are the roadies, the supporting cast, and the plumbers and the janitors of the system that keep things going but the real rock stars are the developers. If you think about it, Linux is worth $10 billion. An average kernel developer makes probably, let's say $150,000 a year, by the way, they make more than your average developer because they're in such high demand. The role of organizations like ours is such a tiny fraction financially of what is really fueling this model but it's an important one. What we ask ourselves all the time is, why do you need us? Who cares, right? Like, throw your code up on GitHub, you don't need the Linux Foundation, right? Why do we even exist? And the answer is to do things like this Community Health Analytics for Open Source Software, to provide the infrastructure for sustainability. Sustainability is something that we need to measure, right? How many developers are contributing to a project? Are they from a diverse community so that if one group goes away, there'll be somebody else there to do that work? How much test coverage do they have? Are there code quality metrics that we could look at? Do they have security practices like a responsible disclosure policy, a security mailing list? Have they recently fuzzed their code? Are they a community that's welcoming for people of different backgrounds? And so on and so forth. If you don't have a healthy project, you kind of don't want to bet your company on this project by using it in a production system, right? But here's the interesting thing, how many people are using that code in production also is a metric for health, right? Because that's where the reinvestment is going to come in the form of developers who are working on it. >> There's a difference between being proactive and jamming something down someone's throat. So you're taking an approach, if I get this right, to be kind of the same open source ethos, use some KPIs, key performance indicators, to give them a sense of success. But it's not an edict saying-- >> No, no, it can't be an edict. What you want to do is preserve the organic innovation that goes on in open source and get projects to go, and you'll notice that curve of sort of value to volume goes up and to the left, we could've written it to the right but, you know, the whole copyleft thing we love. How do you get that organic innovation to kind of go from this small project up and to the left? How do you capture that? Well, give tools to everyone so that they can better self-analyze. >> John: You get exponential growth with that. >> Exactly. >> If you try to control, it's linear but you bring it to the community, you get exponential growth. >> Exactly, so we studied a ton of innovation theory, we looked at how we could build frameworks to facilitate this kind of form of mass innovation and so that's where tools like CHAOSS which is being worked on by Red Hat and a lot of companies who want to figure out which project should I work on? How can I spot that one earlier? And we're excited about it. >> You know, I always joke, being the old guy that I am, in the late '80s, early '90s, '80s particularly when I was coding. We did everything, we wrote all the code. You bring up an interesting stat and you put the finger on, at least for me, and I think this is where a lot of us old timers who had to do all the libraries from scratch. You mentioned the code sandwich, the code club, the club sandwich, how code's being made and the interesting thing, as you point out, 90% of most great software is done with open source where the 10% innovation is done with original code or original content, if you will, and that that is the norm. So open source is now called the code sandwich because you can put your differentiation and that's a good use of time. >> That's the meat, right. >> That's the meat, it's not a wish sandwich to use the old Blues Brothers example but I mean look, the thing is is that that's dynamic is real, the code is leverageable, and that this is the dynamic so where'd the number come from? Because that seems really high to me but I love it. >> So that number came from a combination of Sonatype, SourceClear, and other organizations that monitor commercial reuse of software on a global basis. So these are the folks who are actually working with commercial industry to look at the makeup of their code, basically. You don't have to go far to look at a Node.js developer, they're using Node.js, they're taking packages out of NPM, and they're writing, they're cut and paste masters, but they write this critical component that's the meat of their application, it's what they do. >> But that's the innovation fabric that's happening. >> It also is a requirement because let's look at a modern, luxury vehicle today. It has 100 million lines of code in it. That's more than an F-35, like, fighter jet. That's an unbelievable amount of code. Toyota, who we work with, and you know, our AGL, our Automotive Grade Linux, is in their Camry. They couldn't write that code on their own. It's just too much. And this is how we get to autonomous vehicle control and things like that. >> I know you got a tight schedule, I want to make one more comment, get your reaction to it. I made a tweet and said, it's open bar in open source and with a reference to all the goodness being donated by companies, Google TensorFlow, there's a lot of other things coming in, these libraries. A lot of people are bringing really, really big IP to the table, IoT, and I kind of made an open remark 'cause a lot of the young kids, they think this is normal, like, well it's going to get better. Keep on drinking that open source. Is this normal? Is it going to be more like this in the future? Because you have essentially real intellectual property, like say from Google, being given to the open source communities as a gift for innovation. I mean, that is just unprecedented greatness. >> The reason for that is they're not doing it necessarily altruistically although I think you can take it that way, they're doing it in a way that betters themselves and others at the same time. I mean, it is a form of collective capitalism where they've realized, my value's over here, it is better for me to collaborate on underlying infrastructure software that my customers don't care about that's not critical to my system but I absolutely have to have and I'm going to focus on data or I'm going to focus on much higher-level innovation. And what that's doing is creating this hockey stick of innovation where, as we share more and more and more infrastructure software, and as that keeps moving up and up the stack, we all benefit. >> So in the theory of the management, bring up management theory, their theory, I'd love to get your thoughts on, is that they're betting on scale rather than trying to go for profits in the short-term, they'd much rather share intellectual property on the back-end value of scale and scale's the new competitive advantage. >> Exactly, take Kubernetes as an example. The fact that, today, and just even a couple years ago this wasn't known, we didn't quite know where this was going to be, but today you can take Node.js, build a container, you know, take an application, throw it into a container, and use Kubernetes to run it on Azure, Amazon, Google, or in a private cloud. That definition, the ability to do that, unlocks this massive developer productivity which creates more value which is more business opportunity for all these guys. You know, they're not doing it 'cause they're nice people, they're doing it 'cause they're unlocking market potential. >> And they're the real rock stars. Jim you're doing a great job. Congratulations on your success. You got a lot of growth in front of you, a lot of challenges and opportunities certainly with that and of course, the tech athletes out there doing the coding, they're the real rock stars, they're the real athletes. Of course, we get more on The Cube, thanks for your support with The Cube as well, appreciate that. >> Jim: Thank you, thanks for everything. >> Alright, this is live coverage from Open Source Summit North America in Los Angeles, California. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, we'll be back with more live coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live, from San Francisco. It's the CUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. This is the CUBE. We're here in San Francisco live, wrapping up our third day of coverage at Red Hat Summit 2018. I'm John Furrier. Great event and here, our special guest appearance as our closing analyst. I've been here all week with John Troyer. He had to leave early to get down to San Jose. John Troyer is the co-founder of TechReckoning, which is an advisory and community development firm and in his place we have Keith Norbie who's the Senior Manager at NetApp, doing business development, DevOps pro, former solidifier, really at the heart of the NetApp that's transforming. Here as my guest analyst, welcome, welcome to the CUBE. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Thanks for coming in and sharing your knowledge. And to wrap up the show, really a lot going on. And I know you've been super busy. You had an appreciation of that last night with NetApp. You had customers there. But I really wanted you to come on and help me wrap up the show because you're also at the kernel of DevOps, right, where DevOps and storage, we were talking last night about the role of storage, but that's just an indication of what's going on across the board of all resources. Invisible infrastructure is the new normal and that is what people want. They want it to be invisible but they want that highly performant, they want it scalable. So roles are changing, industries are changing, application development is changing. Everything is changing with cloud scale at an unprecedented level and Red Hat is at the center of it with the kernel Linux operating system. It's all about the OS. >> Yeah. >> That's my takeaway from the show. What's your takeaway, what's your analysis here of Red Hat Summit? >> Well first off, you know, 7,000 people is a heck of a lot of growth. In some of the birthplaces of VM world, we have the new birthplace of open being real, and Red Hat's been the really the true company that's taken open and done something with it. >> What's the big, most important story for you here this week? What jumps out at you that jumps off the page and says, wow, that's happening, this is real, obviously open source, going to a whole 'nother level, the cat's been out of the bag for awhile on that, but really, it's just about the exponential growth of open source, Linux Foundation's Jim Zemlin talks about this all the time, so okay, that's not to me the most important, so that's just reality. >> Yeah. >> But what jumped off the page for you here? >> I think they said it best in one of the keynotes where they went from this being a concept of cheap to a concept of being functional or capable. So it's the c-to-c transition of cheap to capable and it is about trying to unlock the capabilities of what this show delivers, not just on Red Hat's platform but across the ecosystem. And as you see that play out in any one technology sector, you know, we've been talking DevOps which I think has been a phenomenal study in and of itself saying you know, we've gone from a lot of thought leadership a lot of, if you go to DevOps Enterprise Days, they'll talk a lot about culture and operational things to now seeing a maturation in the industry to actually have, you know, some very specific capabilities and customer (mumbles) models. >> I think the thing that jumped out, for me, Keith, I want to get your reaction to it, is that DevOps ethos, which has been around for awhile, not a lot, you know, a couple years, eight years maybe, since cloud really native really kicked in. But the ethos of open source, the ethos of DevOps, infrastructure as code is not just for software development anymore because as the things that are catalyzing around digital transformation, with Kubernetes becoming a defacto standard, with the role of containers, with server-less and all this infrastructure being programmable, the application market is about to go through a massive Renaissance, and you're seeing those changes rendered in the workplace. So the DevOps and open source ethos is going everywhere. It's not just development, it's marketing, it's how people manage their businesses and work force structure. You're seeing blockchain and decentralized applications on the horizon. This new wave is not just about DevOps for infrastructure as code, it's the world as code, it's business as code, it's everything as code so if you're doing anything with a waterfall, it's probably outdated. >> Yeah, everything has its different pace and its cadence in different industries and that's the hard thing to predict for everybody. Everybody that's coming here from different walks and enterprises of life is trying to figure out how to do this. And that permeates out into, you know, vehicles and IoT edge devices, back to the core part of the data centers and the cloud and you've got to have answers for really the three parts of that equation in different modes and ultimately equal a business equation, a business transformation. >> What did you learn here? I'll just tell you my learning, something that wasn't obvious that I learned that's validated in my mind and they didn't talk about it much on stage in Red Hat. Maybe they do off the record, maybe it's confidential information, maybe it's not. But my observation is that the Red Hat opportunity is really global. And the global growth of Red Hat, outside the United States and Europe is really where the action is. You look at Asia and third-world countries with mobile penetration. The global growth for Red Hat and Linux is astronomical. To me, that clearly came through, when I squint through the puzzle pieces and say, okay, where's the growth coming from? Certainly containers, Linux containers is going to be bigger than Rel, so that's going to be a check on the financial results. That's good growth. But it's really outside the United States. I'm like, wow, this is really not just a North America phenomenon. >> Yeah, and really, demand is demand. And at NetApp we see this in APAC almost more so than a lot of the other parts of the world. The pace of innovation and the demand for innovation you know, just kind of finds its way naturally into this market. You know, this whole community and open source approach you know, sort of incubates a lot more innovation and then the pace of the innovation, in my opinion, just by natural fellowship of these people. And the companies trying to innovate in the segment with these things. >> So what did you learn this week? What was something that you learned this week that you didn't know before or you had a hunch or you validated it here? What is something that's unique that you could share that you've learned or validated or have an epiphany? Share some color commentary on the show. >> Yeah, I think there's a little bit of industry maturation, where this technology isn't just like a Linux thing and a thing for infrastructure people trying to do, you know, paths or container automation or something technical. But it's equating out to industry solutions like NFE and Telco is a great example, you know, where all of us want to get to a 5G phone, and the problem is, is that they've got to build a completely reprogrammable, almost completed automated edge cloud type of network. And you can't do that with appliances, so they have to completely reprogram and build a new global scale of autonomy on a platform and it's awesome how like complex and how much technology is there and what it really comes down to is us having a faster phone. (laughter) It's amazing how you have all that, and it equals something so simple that my 14-year old daughter, you know, can have a new obsession with how fast the new phone is. >> I mean, (mumbles) digital transformation in all aspects, IoT edge, you mentioned that, good stuff. I got to ask you, while you're here, about NetApp, obviously, SolidFire, a great acquisition from NetApp, some transformation going on within NetApp. What's going on there? You guys got a good vibe going on right now, some good team recruiting. You guys recruit some great people, as well as the SolidFire folks. What's going on in NetApp? >> Well, yeah, I was part of the SolidFire team and that was a great group of people to really see the birth of the next generation data center through that lens of the SolidFire team. As we've come to NetApp now, we've really seen that be able to be incubated into the family of NetApp, really into three core missions, you know, modernizing data centers, you know, with an all flash approach to the ONTAP and FAS solutions, taking the SolidFire assets and really transforming that to the next level in the form of an HCI solution, you know, which is really to deliver simplicity for various consumption of economics and agility of operations within an organization. And then, you know, having that technology also show up in the marketplace at Amazon and Azure. And this week we announced Google. So it's been fun to see, not just the SolidFire thing come to life in its own mission, but how that starts to federate in this data fabric, you know, across three different missions. And then when it really gets exciting, to me, is how it applies into things that help people transform their business, like we talked DevOps and unlocking that and some of the config automation with Ansible, unlocking it some of the things with open shift that we're doing with Trident in the container automation across three of our platforms. And then seeing how this also comes to life with other factors with code and RD factory management or CIC piplup Jenkins. It's about tying this entire floor together in ways that makes it easy for people to mature and just get more agile. >> And it's a new growth for the ecosystem. We're seeing, you know, some companies that try to get big venture-backed financing, trying to monetize something that's hard to do if you're not Linux. I mean, Linux's a free product. It's all about Linux and the operating system. So, Linux is the enabler. >> Absolutely. >> To all of this and whoever can configure it in a way that's horizontally scalable, asynchronous and with microservices architecture wins the cloud game, 'cause the cloud game is just now creating clear visibility. The role that open source plays, being open I mean, look at the role that Hypervisor closed and proprietary, harder to innovate in a silo. If you're open, innovation's collective, collective intelligence. >> And I thought that one of the keynote demos, on Day One, Tuesday morning, to me, was one of the more powerful ones, where they showed a VM environment being transformed into container automation. Like literally a SQL environment being on into a container-based environment from previously being in a VM environment. And traditional IT doesn't have to do a whole lot of heavy lifting there. You know, people want that ability, kind of inch into it and then transform at their own time scale. >> Yeah, I think the big takeaway from me here in the show to kind of wrap things up is Red Hat has an opportunity to leapfrog the competition in way that's not a lone wolf kind of approach. It's like they're doing it with a collective of the whole. The second thing that jumps out at me, I think this is really game-changing for the business side of it is that because they're open with Linux and the way the ecosystem's evolving around cloud, the business issues that enterprises face, in my opinion, is really about, how do I bring in the new capability, okay of cloud, cloud scale and all asynchronous new infrastructure and applications without killing the old? And containers and Kubernetes and Openshift allow companies to slow roll the lifecycle or let workloads either live and just hang around or kind of move out on their own timetable, so you get the benefits of lift and shift with containers without killing the existing old ways while bringing in new innovation. This, to me, is an absolute game changer. I think it's going to accelerate the adoption to cloud. And it's a win-win. >> Absolutely. Transform agility. >> Cool, well Keith, thanks for coming on. Any final thoughts from yourself here on the show observations, anecdotes, stories? >> You know, sometimes less is more and this show has, you know, in a lot of ways both gotten more complex, but I would argue also much more simple and clear about directional paths that organizations can take. And that is working backwards from cloud what cloud is teaching the rest of us is that both, you know, functions more so than technology, and agility in terms of the ability to consume at the pace of the business. Those two things are the ways to take all this complexity and simplify it down into a couple of core statements. >> Someone asked me last night, what I thought about the current situation in the industry and I want to get your response to this, and get your reaction. I said, if a company is not making tweaks to their business, they're probably not positioned for success, meaning, with all the new things that have developed just in the past 12 to 18 months, if they're not tweaking something in some material, meaningful way, not like, not completely replatformizing or changing a business model. A tweak, whether it's to their marketing, or their tech or whatever, then they're probably stuck. And what I mean by that is that new things have happened in the past 18 months that are moving the needle on what the future holds. And to me, that's a tell sign when someone says is someone doing well? I just look at 'em. Well, they were kind of just doing the same thing they did 18 months ago. They really, they're talking a game, but they're not changing anything. So if they're not changing anything, it's probably broken. Your thoughts? >> Yeah, it was best said in terms if you look at the the Fortune 100 right now and contrast that with, you know, 10 or 15 years ago and it's a different landscape. And projecting that out another even five years, the rate of acceleration on this is a brutal scale. And so any company that's not thinking through transformation, you know. My kids are the future consumers. You know, they grew up as digital natives. You know, we're all migrants and they just automatically assume all these things are going to be there for them in their rhetoric, in their rationale. And the current companies of today have got to figure that out, you know, and if they don't start now, you know, they might be out of business in five years. >> If you're standing still, you get rolled over. That's my opinion. CUBE coverage here, of course, wrapping up our show here at Red Hat Summit 2018. We've been in the open all week here in the middle of the floor at Moscone West in San Francisco, live for the past three days. All the footage on Silicon Angle.com as to articles from our reporting, the CUBE.net is where all the videos will live and check out wikibon.com for all the research. Keith, thanks for being our guest analyst in the wrap up, 'ppreciate it and congratulations on all your success at as Business Development Exec at NetApp and the SolidFire stuff. Great you coming on. DevOps culture going mainstream. Software's powering the world. This is the programmable world we live in powered by Linux. Of course, the CUBE's there, covering it. Thanks for watching. Red Hat 2018, we'll see you next show.

>> Announcer: From San Francisco it's theCUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back, everyone. We are here live in San Francisco, the Moscone West for the Red Hat Summit and we're covering three days of wall-to-wall coverage. I'm John Furrier with my co-host John Troyer. Our next guest is Jennifer Cloer, creator and executive producer of The Chasing Grace Project, formerly CUBE alumni, was on at the CloudNOW awards at Google. Great to see you. >> Great to see you, thanks for having me. >> So obvioulsy Open Source has been amazing growth, okay, and it has kind of democratized software. >> Right. >> You've got a project in my opinion that I think is democratizing, getting the word out on the tech issues around women in tech and more importantly, it's inspirational, but it's also informational. Take a minute and explain what is the project Chasing Grace? Obviously Grace, Grace Hopper. >> Right. Right, The Chasing Grace Project is a documentary series of six episodes about women in tech. The name does lend itself to Grace. We named it after Grace Hopper because she really exemplifies the grit and the excellence that we're all chasing all the time. It's also this idea that we're chasing the idea of grace in the face of adversity. It's not always easy but the women who we've interviewed and talked to exhibit amazing grace and are super inspiring. So the series doesn't shy away from adversity but it certainly focuses on stories of resilience. >> And when did you start the project and is there episodes? Is it on Netflix? >> Yes. >> Is it on DVD? >> (laughs) Let's hope. We hope so. We started the project, excuse me, about a year and a half ago. I put a call for stories out in a number of women in tech forums I belong to, was inundated with responses. Women are ready to share their stories. Spent every Friday for about four or five months on back-to-back calls with women, produced the trailer last May, a year ago, released it in September, and since then it's been a whirlwind. Lots of interest. Lots of men and women wanting to share their stories, as well as people wanting to underwrite the work, which is fabulous because it relies on sponsors. So yeah, we're about a year and a half in. We just finished episode one and screened it. We've got four or five more to go so we're early. We're early, but it's happening. >> And share some stories because I saw the trailer, it's phenomenal. There's women in tech and the culture of the bro culture, people talk about that all the time. It's male-dominated and you're seeing here with Red Hat Summit, there's women here but it's still dominated by men. >> Right. >> The culture has to evolve and I think a lot of men are smart and see it. Some aren't and some are learning. I would call learning a bigger (laughs) percentage. >> Sure. >> What are you finding that women who are really driving the change has been the big trend line? And how's the men reacting? Because the men have to be involved, too because they also have to take responsibility for the change. >> Absolutely, absolutely. I would say that by women sharing their stories we are starting to change culture. I'm actually keynoting today at the Women's Leadership lunch at Red Hat Summit. I'm going to talk about that, the impact of story on cultural change because there's a lot of reasons cited for the decline of women in tech, because we've gone backwards. There's actually fewer than ever before. But many things are cited. So the pipeline issue, poor education, but the biggest thing cited is the culture and the culture has changed over the course of the last decade in particular. So the women we've talked to, their stories of resilience are starting to change that culture. When people talk and share experiences and stories, there's empathy that comes from both men and women who hear those stories and I think that that starts to change culture. It's starting to happen. I think we are pivoting, it's happening. But there's still a lot of work to do. >> John Troyer: Jennifer, at the keynote, or at the luncheon here, the Women's Leadership luncheon, anything else that you'll be bringing up? That sounds like part of your message here that you're going to be bringing today and you want to share right before you go up? >> Yeah, sure. So like I said, I'll talk about the impact of story on culture. I'll talk about the stories of resilience. I'm going to share a few stories from women who we've actually interviewed and featured in episode one. Because you can't see episode one online because we're in discussions with distributors, I'm going to share those stories with this audience. And I think folks can, like I said, learn from those and gain empathy and walk away hopefully with action. >> That seems great. The storytelling of course is key, right? We're in an interesting place in our culture today and I think social media, the 10 or 20 years of social media that we've had is part of that. I know my feed is filled with incredible women leaders in tech and frankly it's much better for it. But you know, you do sense a sense of almost weariness in some folks because this is one, they get shit on, can I say that? >> Hey, it's digital TV, there's no censorship. >> But also you'd like to eventually, if you're a woman in tech, you'd like to be able to talk about tech, not just being a woman in tech. >> Right, right. >> I guess, is that just at the part, is that just where we are in society right now? >> I think so and you know, it's a marathon, not a sprint, right? It's going to take a long time. It took a long time to get us to this place, it's going to take a long time to move us forward. But yeah, women do want to build tech and not have to advocate for themselves. Hopefully projects like The Chasing Grace Project and other work that's happening out there, there's a lot of initiatives that have sprung up in the last few years, are helping to do that so that the women who are building can build. >> What's your big takeaway from the work you've done so far? It could be something that didn't surprise you that you knew was pretty obvious and what surprised you? What's some of the things that's come out of it that's personal learnings for you? >> I think the power that comes from giving women a platform to be seen and heard for their experiences. Almost every woman I've talked to says I feel so alone. They're in an office with mostly men. There might be another woman but they feel so alone and when they share their stories and they see other women sharing their stories, they know they're not alone. There may be few of them but the stories are very similar. I think that men learn a lot when they see women sharing their stories, too because they don't know. The experiences that we all have are very different. We're walking through the same industry but our day-to-day experiences are quite different. Learning what that's like, both for women, for men, there are men that are going to be featured in this series, and women of other women. Just the power in that. Most women tell me I don't really have a story. Well, you both know that when you dig a little bit, >> They all have stories. >> everybody has a story. Everybody has a story, multiple stories. So, yeah. >> So let me as you a question. This has come up in some of my interviews on women in tech and that is is that it kind of comes up subtlety, it's not really put out there, like you said, aggressively. But they say there's also a women women pressure. So how have you found that come up? Because it's not just women and men. I've heard women say there's pressure, there's other pressures from other women. Do more or do less and it's kind of an individual thing but it's also kind of code, as well to stick together. At the same time, there's a women and women dynamic. >> Yeah. >> What have you found on that? >> Mostly I've found, I think there's a shift happening, mostly I've found that women are forming community and supporting each other. Everyone has a different definition of feminism or womenism (laughs) as some women have called it, but I think there are some women who have told me, usually the older generations who have told me there's only room for one woman at the table. One woman makes it to leadership and she's very protective of that space. But we're seeing that less and less. >> I don't want to turn this into, you hate to turn this into a versus scenario, right? Especially online I see a lot of interaction of men coming up and saying, either trying to explain to women what their problem is or, but also saying educate me, like take your time to educate me because I can't be bothered to figure it out myself. Or also trying to stand up themselves and lead the charge. So one of my personal things I do, I sit back and let the women talk and listen to them about what they want to do. >> Right. >> Any particular advice you have for folks who are listening and who might want to, you know, what do you do? I guess sit down and pay attention. >> Yeah, I'd say listen to the stories. Listen to what women need and want out of their male allies and advocates. And listen to the women who you already are friends and colleagues with. What do they need from you? Start there. And then build your way out. I remember when I first started The Chasing Grace Project, I was actually advised by people, well don't feature men at all because they can't speak for women and that's very true but I've decided that we will feature both men and women because we're all part of the industry, right? When I talk about the future is being built by all of us. We need more women in leadership. We don't need just women in leadership, we need men and women. So I think though, right now at this moment in time men should listen and ask their, like I said, their inside circle of women that are friends and colleagues, what can I do? What do you need in terms of my support? >> And it's inclusion, too. There's a time to have certain, all women and then men, as well. >> Right. >> Kind of the right balance. >> Right. >> Well, I have to ask you obvioulsy, Red Hat is an Open Source world. Community is huge. Obviously tech has a community and some will argue how robust it is (laughs) >> Right. (laughs) >> and fair it is. And communities have their own personality, but the role of the community becomes super critical. Can you just share your thoughts and views of how the role of the community can up its game a bit on inclusion and diversity? And I put inclusion first because inclusion and diversity, that seems to be the trend in my interviews, diversity and inclusion, and now it's inclusion and diversity. But the community has some self-policing mechanisms. There's kind of a self-governance dynamic of communities. So it's an opportunity. >> It is an opportunity. >> So what's your view? >> There are a lot of things that are talked about within the Open Source community in terms of how to advance inclusion in a positive way. One is enforcement. So at events like this, there's a code of conduct. They've become very popular. Everybody has one, for good reason, but everybody's doing them now. I worked at The Linux Foundation for 12 years. When you have an incident at an event, if you don't enforce your code of conduct, it doesn't mean anything. So I think that's one very tangible example of something you can do. We certainly tried at The Linux Foundation, but I remember it was a challenge. If something happened, what was the level of issue and how would we enforce that and address it? So I think the community can do that. I think start there, yeah. >> What's your take on The Linux Foundation, since you brought it up? Lots going on there. >> Right. >> You've got CNCF is exploding in growth. >> Jennifer: Right. >> Part of that, Jim Zemlin is doing a great job. As you look at The Linux Foundation since you have the history, >> Yeah. >> where it's come from and where it's going, what's your view of that? >> My goodness. I was part of The Linux Foundation before it was called The Linux Foundation. It was called Open Source Development Labs, way, way, back. But you know, always impressed with what The Linux Foundation is doing. CNCF in particular is on fire. I watched my social media feeds last week about KubeCon in Copenhagen, a lot of friends there. You know, Open Source is the underpinning of society. If the world we live in is a digital one and we're building that digital existence for tomorrow, the infrastructure is Open Source. So it's just going to become more and more relevant. >> And they're doing a great job. And it's an opportunity with the community again to change things. >> Yeah. >> There's a good mindset in the Open Source community with Linux Foundation. Very growth-oriented, growth mindset. Love the vibe there. They've got good vibes. >> Yeah. >> They're very open and inclusive. >> There's some projects that are really prioritizing. DNI, one of which is Cloud Foundry Foundation. Abby Kearns is doing an amazing job there. The Node.js community I think is pretty progressive. So yeah, it's encouraging. >> Abby was on theCUBE. We were there in Copenhagen. >> Right, right. >> Thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure. >> What's next for you? Your life's a whirlwind. Take a quick minute. >> Yeah, I'm in Chicago next week for a shoot. We're shooting episode two which is focused on women in leadership roles. There's only 11% of executive positions in Silicon Valley are held by women. So it's a provocative topic because a lot of women haven't experienced that so we want more to do that. >> Well, if you need any men for the next show, John and I will happily volunteer. >> Okay, wonderful. >> To be stand-ins and backdrops. >> Fantastic, thank you. >> Thanks for coming on. It's theCUBE coverage here live, Moscone West in San Francisco for Red Hat Summit 2018. We'll be back with more coverage after this short break.

>> Narrator: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. It's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2018, brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone, live here in Silicon Valley in Mountain View, California, it's theCUBE coverage of DevNet Create. This is Cisco's cloud developer, DevOps, cloud native developer environment. This is different from DevNet, that's their Cisco developer conference, so we're here covering it. This is where all the action in Kubernetes, DevOps, and a lot more. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Lauren Cooney. Our next guest is Heidi Waterhouse, Developer Advocate for Launch Darkly. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Hi, thank you! I'm glad to be here. >> Thanks for coming on. So first of all, take a minute to talk about what you guys do as a company, then we'll talk about some specific DevOps questions that we have for you. >> Excellent. So, what we do as a company is, I summarize it as feature flags as a service. We are giving people a control surface to be able to deploy their code safely in the daytime, so nobody has to stay up on a deploy bridge, and then control who sees it very precisely, and roll out individually or do work to do intricate testing with user groups or we sometimes use it, imagine if sales could turn on a feature, a test feature for one client without needing to go to development and get approval for all of that. So it gives us the ability to let people be richer in their expression of software. >> So is it software as a service? Is it cloud-based? >> Yes >> It is 100 percent cloud-based. >> So, subscriptions, free? >> We charge by developer seat, and all we are saying is, go ahead and use it, we have the capacity to handle it. We're handling about 25 billion flags a day right now. >> So it's a great tool, so it's not like a big over the top feature cost. >> Oh, no. >> It's like nice lightweight usability, the more you use it, the better utility. >> Yeah, it's very light. It's a couple SDKs and then a code snippet about this long, depending on your language. The Java one's a little longer. And what it gives people is the ability to do feature flags, which lots of people are already doing, in a manageable way, with a structured API, so that people can keep track of what's happening. And make sure that they are only allowing the right people to turn flags on, because you don't want everybody to be able to hit the kill switch. You want a kill switch on the feature if it starts spitting out garbage, but you don't want it to be universally accessible. >> I think you also want it to be consistent, right? In that environment and those environments, where the developers are trying to understand what that looks like. >> Right, and auditable. We give you the ability to see every change that's happened to a flag and who made it. >> So DevOps is going on almost a 10-year run now. If you look back on the original kind of DevOps ethos, really was kind of coming in late in the 2007 time frame, the real hardcore DevOps were building their own stuff. So we're 10 years into what I would call the true DevOps, maybe earlier. You could argue a little bit earlier when Amazon hit the table, but can you tell about the kinds of things that you guys are doing is really large DevOps environments, where you want agility, you want real-time, push code all the time, but be reliable. This is more of a mature-looking dev team. How has that evolved there? What are some of the key things? This is kind of probably an indicator, of where everything else is going. What are some of the developer concerns? Is it A/B testing? That's kind of a trivial example, but I often imagine all kinds of new software methodologies are coming out of this. What are you seeing? >> So what we're seeing is, for 20 years, we've been teaching and preaching branch-based development. But it turns out the very largest software organizations, like Google, are doing trunk-based development, because branches are just a way to cry. Once you try and merge something back in, you find out that you have conflicts, and then you have to have more discussions about who gets cherry-picked, and it's catastrophic. I have said for a long time that maybe my second career is just going to be a trauma therapist, specializing in GitHub, and I think I can make money at that. So we have this inherent belief that branches are just how we code, and what we've been seeing is, people are pulling back more and more into trunk-based development, so that everybody is aware of what's going on all the time, and you can just have one through-line in your code and not have people spoiling off into branches that are unproductive. >> And how you do you manage that? So your tool manages that, or is it more of a philosophy discipline? >> No, it is a side effect of our tool, because the reason we have branches is because we don't want to show people our work in process. But if you can hide it behind a feature flag, and only deploy it, only activate it when you're ready, it gives you a good chance to test it in production. There's nothing that says you can't build your feature, test it in production at full scale, with all your microservices distributed, all of the data flow, everything, but you're the only one who sees it. And being able to target that is really important. It's going to give you a lot of capacity to test things. >> Yeah, and we've seen that, too, all the time, where people are saying, "Hey, you know what, I want to test it before I invest in it." That's a big thing. >> Yeah, it is. And internally being able to test things is going to give you a lot of capacity. So, we find that it is not our, we're not enforcing anything on anyone. That's not our role or our goal. What we're trying to do is offer people a tool that helps facilitate the best of what they're doing. >> Yeah, and when you look at developer tools, I think that's absolutely critical in bringing that to the table for different environments and things along those lines. >> And one of those things I was going to ask you is, when you look at the developer environment, is the developer environments, in your mind, in a spot where people can do this? In other words, will they be able to pull it off in open source, because if someone's got all this open source information going on, let's just say hypothetically, they got the trunk thing going on, but a lot of open source is driving this, so there's some discipline involved, there's some psychology, counseling, as you mentioned, so how do you pull it off? What's the best use case? >> You have to make it advantageous. You have to make it work for them, because people aren't going to do things that don't work for them. I teach a workshop, I was doing a workshop here about documentation, and people were like, "How do you get developers to document?" I'm like, "Well, have you ever fired a developer "for not documenting something?" "Have you ever given them a raise for documenting something? "If you haven't, you don't actually care about them "doing documentation." In the same way, moving culture means that we have to incentivize doing the right thing. We have to make the barrier to entry low, and we have to make it possible for people to just do the right thing more easily than the wrong thing. >> The other thing that I was thinking about, too, is, this is just kind of my personal opinion, 'cause the things you mentioned are really important, and that is that, doing testing at scale is a big deal, because if you think about all the wasted time that goes into, just the politics, whether it's politics or lobbying to get something in, a feature built, I mean, you're talking about months, weeks, I mean, it's a nightmare. So imagine a capability to say, and this is the promise of DevOps, this is ultimately why this is so awesome. >> So, this is like, move fast and don't break things very much. And I like to think of, every plane you get on is a little bit broken, it has an error budget, and if it exceeds the error budget in any direction, even if it's like an overhead latch bin, they ground the plane. But our organizations also need to be that resilient. We need to have that flexibility, and I think the way we can do that is by being able to instrument our features and turn them off if they're causing problems, or turn them down if we're getting flooded, or whatever it is we need to do, we need to do it at a finer grain than we've currently been doing. I don't ever want to have blackouts, like maybe a brownout. >> And Heidi, the other thing I think is interesting with what you guys are doing is that, this whole event here at DevNet Create, and all the other events that are, I call cutting edge developer events, the vendors who sell stuff, like Cisco, whether they're big, and new vendors, the old model of preaching and jamming solutions down your throat is not the way it works anymore. All the enablements has to be there, but the co-creations happening, really from the people who are building their own stuff, so that's kind of going to have to be a dynamic, creative environment, so you need to have a really pure DevOps environment. Well, not pure DevOps, I mean an environment that's going to be facilitating creativity, risk-taking, >> Yes. >> experimentation, building concepts, not, "Oh, I'm constrained, because this psychologically doesn't support," >> Yeah, it's hard to do advanced thinking when you are not psychologically safe. But I do think that you don't have to be operating in the purest of DevOps in order to be taking in some of these tools and techniques and using them effectively. I think there are a lot of people who have, for instance, taken up blameless post-mortems. Even if they're not doing anything else in the DevOps sphere, they're like, "Oh, wait, we could talk about "root causes that weren't, like people screwed up," and I want us to say whatever you can do that's going to improve your environment. I don't want people to feel like they have to absolutely transform everything, because that's too big an ask. >> Yeah, it's disruptive, too, to operations. You want to be just enough disruptive. Alright, I want to get your thoughts on something that I've been thinking about for a while, been talking about on theCUBE, and that is, I come from the old, when I was growing into the business, it was all waterfall-based software development, Agile comes along and it de-risks everything, because the old days was you created a product, you crafted it, you shipped it and you don't know if it was going to work or not, right? And you did QA, all that, you prayed. Now, with Agile, that got de-risked, so you, you're shipping code, you're iterating, but I'm arguing that the craftmanship has kind of gone out of it, because you're constantly programming, and so, that's kind of my opinion. Some people will debate that, but, now we're seeing a move towards, with the Agile Methodology, which I love, and a role of craftmanship, where cloud is kind of going to the next level, you're starting to see people think about crafting the product. So, as Agile goes to the next level, what's your opinion, view, of crafting process, now the user experience has gone beyond just look and feel and being good, mission-based applications, you're seeing new kinds of psychology of how people use things. So diversity becomes important, but the role of crafting and the methodology, is there a spot for that? How does that fit in? I mean, if you're constantly shipping code, push, push, push, are you crafting it? Is there, what do think, is there an art? Where's the artistry of it? >> Where is the artistry? Well, artistry isn't replicable. So this is sort of a problem, because what we really want is consistency. So I think eventually we'll become sort of like novelty ice cube molds. There's somebody who carves the original novelty ice cube mold, and then we all use it to make novelty ice cubes that fill our heart with delight. There is an artistry, but we're going to have to pay people to do it, and currently, we're only paying them to cool our drinks. And until we really make some time to say, "It is saving me time, it is saving me money "to have a well-crafted product," we're not going to change. And I think that's an interesting thing about serverless and function as a service, is it really pays to have a super well-constructed system. Those microseconds do count there, in a way that they haven't in the age of eternal storage and basically all the bandwidth we can consume. And I'd like to see that applied backward toward people who have very low bandwidth. I would love it if one day a month, everybody dialed down their corporate internet to the speed that rural America is getting, and see how they feel about their apps then, because there's a lot of people out there who do not have our big fat pipes. >> And also outside of the United States, too. Again, I'm not saying that there's not good software. I'm just kind of seeing a trend where, certainly I have seen this in DC and outside of the US, where mission-driven enterprises have completely different criteria for the product. And so I'm just trying to, I'm seeing some early signals around that the software methodology might, not shift, but it just feels like it's some action there, and I always kind of keep an eye on that. >> So the thing that I think is going to happen, and this is my weird futurist hat, is, I think we are going to have more and more modular, snap-together assemblies, and the product manager is going to rise from the ash heap and be the person who says, "Look, these are all the things that we need to assemble. "Please go find the parts, "so that we can build this that we want," in a way that we haven't prioritized in a realm where we're like, "Well, developers tell me how to do this." >> So componentized feature. >> Yeah, a componentized feature, I see us really moving strongly toward that. I think that's a lot of what we're doing with serverless, and software as a service is like, "Why build it yourself if somebody has already done it?" Like, "Please don't roll your own." Don't roll your own authentication, don't roll your own LDAP. It's a solved problem. Buy it and snap it together in a way that serves your customer. >> Jim Zemlin said this at the Open Source Summit in LA last year, he called it the open source sandwich, only 10% of the solutions are a unique IP, 90% of it is the bread that's from open source. So, to your point, this has already kind of going there, the exponential growth in open source is becoming significant. So with that in mind, that's going to play a part in that futuristic view, it's happening now. Your thoughts on open source, you mentioned that you could be a crisis counselor (laughing), a therapist, or whatever, I mean, there's a lot going on that's now tier one, it's multi-generational now, it's not the old days, renegade second-tier citizen, open source is powering the world. Your thoughts on the current state of open source? >> I think open source is a fascinating example of doing what we need and how it helps other people. And so, almost all open source projects, even now, start with personal pain. And then we expand them to other people. And I would like us to remember that the reason it's open is because we care about other people's pain, and it's really easy as we corporatize open source to forget that that's where we came from. >> And it's community-driven, and it's done in the open. >> Yeah, exactly, and revealing everything that we're doing is an excellent value, even if we're not necessarily licensing it. You can go and look at all of Launch Darkly's APIs. We have them out there, but we're not an open source company, we're just-- >> Transparent. >> Those are values that we have, that we want to be able, we want people to trust us, so we're going to show them. >> Well, congratulations, it's great to have you on. Great conversation. >> Thank you! >> Love the futuristic view, riffing on some concepts we've been thinking about, also. Got a great service, making possible to operate at scale, get new features tested and fire those capabilities. Appreciate it. >> Alright! >> Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you! >> Thanks! >> We're here at DevNet Create, Cisco's cloud DevOps developer get-together. I'm John Furrier. We'll be back with more coverage after this short break.

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017, brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage live here in Austin, Texas for the CNCF's two conferences, CloudNativeCon, which was yesterday, and two days, today and tomorrow, KubeCon for Kubernetes' conference. This is theCUBE, of course, from SiliconANGLE Media. I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Stu Miniman. Our next guest, Dan Kohn, is the executive director of the CNCF, the man who put it all together. Congratulations. Welcome back to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Oh, absolutely. Thrilled to have you guys back here again. >> So you kind of doing a victory lap here now, high fiving each other? >> Dan: Great hugs. >> John: Great event. >> Laughing: I'm glad it's a good event, and I am hearing fantastic feedback that folks are thrilled to be here. But we sort of describe this moment for the organization and the community as being the end of the beginning. >> John: Yeah. >> Where we now have all the major cloud vendors, all of the biggest enterprise software companies. We have a core group of 14 projects anchored by Kubernetes, but tons and tons of work in front of us. >> And tons of success, so I'm just going to read a couple of highlights from yesterday. There's a lot today. Baidu joins the CNCF, a lot of scaling production application examples, 31 new silver end-user members joined, Alibaba Cloud update to platinum, CoreDNS 1.0, Containerd, Fluentd, Jaeger, tons of news. Obviously, we've been pumping out the coverage. Today, again, more and more great goodness. But really interesting is that you guys have put a frame around this community to allow it to grow, to fertilize the open source vibe, which is all cloud but yet scaled. And you put up a slide I want to get your reaction to that I thought was compelling yesterday during your keynote. It was the flywheel, circle, and it said projects, products, profit. >> Dan: Right. >> And not that you're promoting profit, but you're not hiding the ball, either, saying, hey, you know what? There's a lot of commercial interest in cloud, obviously. We saw AWS' success last week. And that is if you create good products in this community framework, there's profit to be had. >> Right. So first of all, I should admit to plagiarizing that slide from Linux Foundation Executive Director Jim Zemlin. >> And similarly, I think you can look at a lot of aspects... >> It's an open source feature. >> Dan: Yes. >> Free for you to use. >> John: Right. >> Similarly, I think there's a lot of ways in which Kubernetes is trying to build on the success of Linux. And Jim even describes Kubernetes as the Linux of the cloud. >> John: Yeah. >> Stu: Yeah. >> John: That's a good point. >> Dan, one of the things we've been talking around Kubernetes is you talk about scale. >> Dan: Right. >> Talk about scale of the CNCF. You have 4 to 14 projects. People are a little worried when you get all the vendors around here and there's all these projects. It's a foundation thing, it's going to go off the rails. >> Dan: Yeah. >> Customers aren't going to have a voice. How do we make sure we kind of learn from some of the things that other projects have had challenges with in the past? >> And I think that's our advantage, which is the great thing about coming later than some of the other foundations, is we can look at where they had successes and where they had issues. And our aspiration for CNCF is to get to go make entirely new mistakes rather than replicating some of the issues that have come before. And so really from the beginning of CNCF, we had a somewhat unusual and frankly a little bit cumbersome charter where I describe it at times as a three-ring circus. We have a governing board made up of the vendors that are putting a lot of money into the community, but they don't get to run the projects and they don't even get to pick the projects. Instead, they appoint six of the nine members of an independent technical oversight committee, kind of like the Supreme Court. And then we have a third group in the end-user community that I'm thrilled to say is now up to 28 members in it. They appoint one of those folks. We finally got that working. We have Sam Lambert, the director of infrastructure at GitHub, who has just made a huge commitment to Kubernetes and is moving all their infrastructure over into it. Those seven appoint the last two. And so that body, and they just had their public meeting a couple hours ago. They feel very strongly about their independence, about their reputation, that they're trying to make very good judgments based on what they're seeing in the marketplace. >> That's interesting, the three-ring circle. I like how you put it. But let's talk about the end-user piece because I think that's critical. One of the things we were commenting earlier from the Lyft folks was you have a lot of end users who have built some large-scale systems out of their own sheer necessity. >> Dan: Definitely. >> And that is now being donated in. We saw Kubernetes come in with, you shepherded beautifully, went from Google, but you've got Lyft donating an amazing product convoy. >> This first convoy has a huge amount of excitement. And what was fun was, actually, on the same stage that they contributed back in LA in September, Uber contributed a separate project. Now, unlike Uber and Lyft, the two projects are in no way competitive- >> John: Yeah. >> Like Jaeger is really fantastic tracing one. But what they have in common is that they're companies that have had to grow from nothing to extremely high scale and then had problems that they solved. And they wanted to share that expertise with us. >> I want to get your thoughts on this. Because we've been speculating, on theCUBE, we've been kind of thinking, an editorial, but just that this is all good business. Now, that's pretty obvious, right? You're starting to see this kind of contribution, the gifts that keep on giving. These are significant code. >> Dan: Yeah. >> Not like, okay, let's start a little group and huddle and build something organically. You have real goodness coming in from Google, Uber, Lyft, and there's a million others. >> Dan: Right. >> How is that changing the game? Certainly accelerating it. That's really bringing goods to the table. >> Right. I think the whole... >> You have to manage it. >> Well, and for what it's worth, I don't actually manage the projects. And so we do provide a set of services- >> John: The community? >> -to them and we help them, we market them. But one of the unusual aspects of CNCF is that the projects do actually manage themselves. A little bit of guidance from the TOC, but we really are unusual in that sense. And that's one of the reasons the projects have been... >> And what's interesting is, to connect the dots, though, one step further, you're talking about a commercial entity donating massive intellectual property in the open for all the goodness of everyone else. But yet that flywheel is continuing. They're still using it. So it is inherently commercial dynamic. >> Right. And back to that circle, I think really the underlying concept is that companies agree that sharing key parts of their infrastructure has a huge amount of value to the whole ecosystem, to each other. And then they're absolutely eager to compete above that. And so you can look at it with the public clouds where we have now Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Alibaba, IBM, Oracle all at the table. They are absolutely fierce competitors. But they're saying that this specific software infrastructure layer isn't the area that they want to compete. They want to compete on all the value-added services, customer service, et cetera. >> Dan, I wonder if you can speak to how CNCF connects to some of the broader communities out there. Things like Kata containers got announced coming out of the OpenStack group. You've got a serverless track happening here, kind of extends some of where Kubernetes is going. How does CNCF fit into the broader... >> Sure. And it's definitely the case that all the innovation out there cannot happen in CNCF. Most obviously, everything that we do, almost everything depends on Linux. And so that's our parent organization, the Linux Foundation. But we've had a good collaboration with Jonathan Bryce from OverStack. They have two booths on the floor here at the show. And we've spoken to Clear Containers and RunV, the two predecessors in the past. But the part that I'm particularly pleased with for Kata containers is that it is an OCI-compliant runtime, that's another sister organization, and is really designed to work well for Kubernetes. And then they can pitch that and let the market go decide which container runtimes they find the most valuable. >> Obviously a lot of traction here in terms of the sentiment around service meshes and pluggable lock-in textures. That's been very cool. But security came up. So I want to get your thoughts around security, obviously storage and these older models around how to deal with storage and networking. Obviously, always in the action. >> Yeah. >> But security is top of mind for everyone. How is that being addressed? You know, talk is out there... >> Sure. I mean our philosophy on this is that moving to cloud-native and particularly the continuous integration and continuous development that goes along with that is the most important step that you can do to help secure your infrastructure. And Equifax is the example everyone always brings up. But there was a case where they were using known insecure software and they didn't have the processes up to place where instead of doing quarterly updates or monthly updates, you want to be doing dozens of updates per day. And a cloud-native infrastructure allows you to do that. >> What's next for you? Because you've got great traction with both community response, and the community has been absolutely amazing, the quality of people, level has been great, but also at the funding sponsors. You've got a lot of people that are involved. What's next? What happens next? What do you envision happening? What's the plan, and then how do you view that evolving? >> Well, I hate to fall into the buzzword implosion here, but if you go back to the crossing the chasm metaphor, I think we're still very much just in the early adopter phase. 2018 could very well be the moment that we jump over to the early majority. And I do feel like this whole community now has the velocity to do that and that we're on track for it. But as that happens, there's just far, far more people who need to be educated so they understand the projects and the options and how to work with them. And then hopefully they go from just being consumers of these technologies to contributors and that we can welcome them into our community and hopefully get the advantage of their expertise as well. >> I want to get your thoughts on a comment that Stu and I were talking about. Stu, you and I were talking about the notion of value creation above the stack, and then how Kubernetes, although some could say being commoditized, but it's also creating value because with that consistency of Kubernetes, you can now create value. So we believe, and I want to get your reaction to this, because we think a whole new ecosystem dynamic will emerge of a new kind of ecosystem. And if this new app developer combined with software engineering, which is really going on, you're talking about the cloud, the app developers will just build in value, that value creation will be rewarded. That's where monetization will be happening. >> And if I could build off that... >> John: Yeah. >> Dan, I loved one of your opening comments. You quoted, "exciting times for boring infrastructure, "maybe too exciting." So this week we've been teasing out there's a lot of work to make that infrastructure boring. You've got everybody on this floor, the CNCF board, lots of new projects making that. Where the action is and what this is going to create is that application monetization and the speed and agility of being able to create these cool new cloud-native applications out there. So it's interesting dynamic, spans broad pieces of this, layers of the stack there. >> Yeah. Well, I will point out that there was an odd level of unanimity of just a ton of different leaders in the community, in keynotes from Craig McLuckie and Chen Goldberg and others where they all agree that Kubernetes is not by any means the ultimate answer or the final answer. I think everybody now expects to see Kubernetes as a core aspect of the infrastructure for software for the next decade or more. But there's a belief that there's a whole ton of value that needs to be added above it, particularly to try and show for a regular application developer who just has a PHP app or no-GS microservices or anything else what's the easiest way to go from having a piece of software and deploying it effectively. >> Dan, so it's interesting. You watch the people on the outside. They're like, oh, look at Kubernetes. They're all holding hands and saying Kumbaya. We know there's some spirited debates that happen- >> Dan: Definitely. >> In the code, some projects that are sometimes competing up there. Why has the community come together, and where are some of the areas that we still need to work on and improve to help customers going forward? >> And again, I think they have the big advantage of having watched other communities that didn't value community and consensus and the ability to work through their issues. And so thankfully, we just have a ton of really capable engineers who also have some of those social or personal qualities that they care about working these things out. And to date, at least, I think most of those disagreements have been settled pretty amicably and in a positive direction. I think there's still huge swathes of this space that are still up in the air. Storage is an obvious one where there's a ton of work going on in a storage working group of CNCF. Serverless is another where I think everyone agrees that the application deployment model of AWS Lambda is really exciting and has things that people should replicate and should be brought over to Kubernetes. But how that should happen, what the software is, et cetera, there's still, in fact, we have our first serverless track today here at KubeCon where several different competing approaches are all talking about what they'd like to do. >> Awesome stuff. And you also announced some dates for next year, December 11 and 13 in Seattle. >> Dan: Yes. >> Okay. >> Dan: That's a year from now. >> November 14 and 15 in Shanghai. >> Now, you and I met in Hangzhou in the lobby, which was just amazing. But I certainly am hoping to convince you to go back to China with us. This will be our first event... >> I got a three-year visa. >> Good, yeah, that's the exactly right one. But this will be our first event in China, which I think is just a huge opportunity. We now have Baidu, Tencent, Huawai, ZTE, a number of startups. There's just so much excitement for this space over there that we're really excited to satisfy. >> Stu: And Copenhagen in May. >> And that's the last one. Thank you. May 2 to 4 in Copenhagen, and we're really excited for the event, to bring it to Europe and the rest of the world. >> Okay. So you've been working like a dog, you've been working hard. I've seen you in China. It's serendipitous. But it's not without being mentioned that this has been great effort by your team and the Linux Foundation and Jim and the whole team. But congratulations. Are you having a pinch me moment? I know it's too early to do a victory lap. >> But you've got to be pretty excited. >> Yeah. It really has been a great thing for the foundation that we sort of accomplished many of our 2018 and 2019 goals this year. But I'm sure we're going to find plenty of stuff to do next year. >> And your goal for the next 6 to 12 months, what's on your top three to-do's, continue the momentum? Share your API for... >> Yeah. What's great is that we really have plenty of members. We'd always like to add new ones and serve the ones we have better. But right now, the focus is really about providing better services to our projects. All of them feel overworked. They would love help on documentation, on marketing, on messaging about it, and some of them need help with testing development and other things. So that's really what we're buckling down on. >> Great community are going to test them, being here on the ground, personally present at creation. And I was standing there with J.J. and Lew Tucker, OpenStack three years ago, talking about Kubernetes. We were kind of ripping. We couldn't have imagined, then, obviously, they bolted it on last year with your event. Now second year here, huge community... >> But you have 4,100 folks here, is more than the previous four events combined. >> Yeah, awesome. >> So it really is exciting. >> TheCUBE, always on the ground. And sometimes the squirrel finds a nut. We found a cloud-native foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. CNCF, Cloud-Native Compute Foundation, really a new, growing, and relevant community for cloud and a new way to do software and reimagine the future from software engineering to full application development, a new way. This is theCUBE's coverage, and we are here live in Austin. More live coverage after this short break. We'll be right back. [Techno Music]

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage. We are live in Austin, Texas for CloudNativeCon and KubeCon, not to be confused with CUBE, 'cause we don't have a CUBE Con yet, C-U-B-E. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Next is Armon Dadgar who is the founder and CTO of HashiCorp. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Thanks for coming on. So we interviewed your partner in crime Mitchell years ago, and we were riffing in our studio in Palo Alto, and essentially we laid out microsurfaces and all the stuff that's being worked on today. So, congratulations, you guys were right in your bet? >> It's funny to see how the reaction has changed over the last few years. Back then it used to be, we'd go in and it's like, people are like, did you catch a load of those crazy people who came in and talked about microsurfaces, and immutable, and cloud? It's like, get out of here. And now it's funny to be here at KubeCon, and it's like-- >> Well it was fun days back then, it was the purest in DevOps, and I say purest, I mean people who were really cutting their teeth into the new methodology, the new way to develop, the new way to kind of roll out scale, a lot of the challenges involved. Certainly, now it's gone mainstream. >> Armon: Yeah. >> You're seeing no doubt about it, I just came back from re:Invent, from AWS, Lambda, Server List. You got application developers that just don't want to deal with any infrastructure. That's infrastructure as code in the DevOps ethos, and then you got a lot of people in the infrastructure plumbing, and App plumbing world, who actually care about all this stuff, provisioning. So, how are you guys fitting into the new landscape? You guys riding along? Were you guys the first ones paddling out to these waves? How do you guys at HashiCorp look at all this growth? >> So the way we think about it is, I think there's a lot of market confusion right now, just because there's so much happening, and I mean, even just being here it's like, almost overwhelming to just like understand what exactly is this market landscape evolving to? And the way we're thinking about it is, there's really these four discrete layers with the four different people that are involved in tech, right? We have, on one side, we have our IT operators that are just trying to get a handle around, how do I provision things in Amazon, and now I have business groups coming and saying, okay I want to provision in Google, cloud and Azure. How do I really do that in way that I don't lose my sanity? You have your security people who are saying, I've lost my network perimeter, now what? Like, how do I think about secret management, and app identity, and this brave new world of cloud. You have your app developers who are like, I don't care about any of that, just give me a platform where I can push deploy and out the gate it goes, and you deal with it. And then you have the folks that are kind of making it all kind of plug together and work, the networking backbone, who is saying okay, before it was F5 and Juniper and Cisco. What does it mean for me as I'm going cloud? So, the way we're sorting of seeing ourself involved in all of this is, how do we help operators sort of get a handle around the provisioning side, with things like Terraform? How do we help the security folks with tools like Volt? How do we complement things like Kubernetes at the runtime layer, or provide our solution with Nomad, and then on the networking side, how do we provide a consistent service discovery experience with Consul? >> So you guys are really just now just kind of riding in with everybody else, kind of welcoming everybody to the party, if you will. (Armon laughs) What's the big surprise for you as you guys, you know it's not new to you guys, but as you see it evolving, what's jumping out at you? I mean, we're hearing service mesh, pluggable architectures. What are some of the things that's popping out of the woodwork that you're excited about? >> Honestly, the thing that I'm excited about is the excitement about infrastructure, right? I mean, when we started four, five years ago, it was an ice cold market. You'd go and talk to people, like, let's talking about how you're doing provisioning, or your deployment, or how your developers push things, and people were like, do we really have to? Like, let me get a coffee. And now it's like the opposite. It's like people are so excited to talk about the infrastructure, the bits and bytes of it, and I think that for us is probably the most exciting thing. So, whether you come here, and it's like the vibe is electric, right? Like, you guys can attest to it. It's crazy to see the growth of it, and so what's exciting for us is now these conversations are being lit up all across industry. >> Yeah. >> So whether you're talking about hey, how do I provision a thing on cloud, to what's a scheduler and how does that help me, there is this tremendous interest in it. >> Yeah, Armon, take us inside. You talked about, you know, it used to be kind of, we would be talking, is infrastructure boring? What is that change that's happening in customers? Has it just reached a certain maturity level, that now the business, they need to move faster, and therefore I need to adopt these kinds of architectures? What are you seeing when you're talking to customers? >> Yeah, I think that, the sort of, we heard that, the sort of, the line a few times is it's becoming boring, but I think what, and sometimes that's the goal, right? All of these tools, all of infrastructure is plumbing, at the end of the day, right? At the end of the day, the applications of the end users is really what should be, sort of, the exciting bit. And so, it's our responsibility, sort of, as the vendors here in the community, working on the infrastructure, to make the stuff boring. And I think, in that case, what we really mean is that it should be so reliable, so well documented, so scalable that it's brain dead to operate these things. And I think, step one is, let's get people excited about what's the state of the possible, what's the art of the possible in terms of, what do I get in terms of business agility of adopting stuff? Once people start adopting it, let's make it boring for them. Let's make them sure they don't regret it, and that they actually see those benefits. >> Well, it's reliable too. Boring equals reliability. >> Exactly, exactly. >> Yeah, it's interesting. When you walk through the provision, secure, connect, and run, it reminded me a little bit of Chen talking in the Keynote this morning about kind of the stack they see Kubernetes playing. >> Armon: Totally. >> You know, there's some people who will probably look, well, HashiCorp, you guys, you have a platform. You've got some of these projects. Is that, what's compatible, what's replaceable? What's the connection between what you are doing and what's happening in this space? >> Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, think a lot of people are like "Is it odd for HashiCorp to be here?" And I think it goes back to our lens on this market, Which is. we want to provide tools that are sort of discrete in each of these categories and we fully know that customers are not going to go all in on HashiCorp and say, I want all four layers, right? A lot of our customers are Kubernetes users. And so, for us the mission is, okay great, how do we make sure Terraform plays nice with Kubernetes? How do we make sure Vault plays nice? So I actually have a session in about an hour and a half here, talking about Vault integration with Kubernetes. And then, we have a developer advocate talking about using Console with Kubernetes as well. So for us, it's really a play nice story. How do we make all of these work together. >> It's a rising-tide-that-floats-all-boats market, I mean this is what's happening. You guys are actors in the ecosystem. It's not a land grab. No-one can own the stack. That's the whole point of this ecosystem, isn't it? >> It's so big, right, this market that we are talking about is so enormous. It's every organization writing software. (laughing) >> All right, give us the update on HashiCorp. What's going on, what's the latest and greatest you guys are out starting? We interviewed you guys about, I think three years ago, maybe four. Can't even remember now at this point. It seems like a blur. >> Yeah, I mean, so two months ago was our big HashiCom for our user com friends. And for us, the focus has really been saying okay, we've got our initial set of open-source tools out on the market in 2015. And we said okay, lets take a pause. There's already so many tools, lets just focus on how do we make the practitioners successful with each of these things and really go deep on all of them. And so, with things like Terraform, we've been partnering with all the various cloud providers, right, to say how do we have first class support for Azure, and Google Cloud and Amazon and make sure that you know, as you're adopting these clouds, Terraform meet you there. And then with things like Vault it's how do we integrate with every platform companies want to be on. So if you're using Kubernetes, how do we make sure Vault meets you there and integrates? So, for us that's been the focus, is staying sort of focused on the six core tools, and saying, "How do we make sure "they're staying up to date as technology moves?" And sort of deepening them. >> Yeah, because your users are going to be leveraging a lot of the new stuff. They're going to be, Kubernetes has certainly been great. What's your take on Kubernetes, if you can just take a minute to just, I mean, not new to this notion of runtime and orchestration. We talked about it with Mitchell in our session years ago, we didn't actually say Kubernetes, it wasn't around then, but we talked about the middleware of the cloud. That was our discussion, and that was essentially called Pass at that time, but now, no one talks about Pass any more, it's all kind of one. >> Right, right. >> What's your take on Kubernetes? How do you feel about it? What is it to you? >> Right, yeah, I think that's, so I think, twofold: I think what's exciting for me about it is, it reminds me in some sense like what Docker did for the industry, which, if we went to sort of the pre-Docker world nobody talked about immutable artifact based deploys. It was like this esoteric thing and then all of a sudden over night Docker made it popular. Whereas like, oh yeah, of course everything should be immutable and artifact based. And then when you look at what Kubernetes has done, it's built on that momentum to say, okay, that was step one. Step two is to say, you really should think about all your machines as a sort of shared pool of resources and move the abstraction up to the application to the service and think about, I'm deploying a service, I'm not deploying a set of VMs. And so it's been this sort of tidal shift in how IT thinks about deploying and delivering in application. It actually should be focused on the service. Focus on sort of abstracting away the machine, and that's super exciting. >> And what do you think the benefits will be with the impact of the marketplace? Faster development, I mean, what's some of the impact that you see coming out of this to go to the next level? >> Yeah, I mean the impact for me is really saying, when we really look at these approaches, in some sense they are not new, if you look at what Google's been doing since the early 2000s with Board, what Amazon's been doing, what Facebook's been doing internally. These big tech companies have showed if you are able to move up the abstraction and provide this higher level of utility to developers, you can support tens of thousands of services, innovate much more quickly, and for a while, that was sort of trapped in these big tech companies. And I think what Kubernetes is really doing is bringing that to everybody else and saying, actually adopting the same strategy lets you have that, right? >> Yeah, its a maturation of open source of this generation. You look at what Lyft, Uber are doing. Look at the Open Tracing for instance, pretty interesting stuff, because I mean they had to build their own stuff. >> Armon: Right. >> At scale, massive scale. Not like, you know, hundreds of thousands of services, millions of transactions a second. >> Armon: Right. >> I mean, that's daunting. >> That's daunting. >> Okay, so your take on open source. Okay, because now we're seeing a new generation of developers coming online. I've been saying it's been, a renaissance is coming. More of an artisan, a craft coming back to craftsmanship of coding. Not like UX Design side, become a craft in code. So you got a new, younger generation coming up. They don't even know what a load balancer is. >> Right. But they're happy not to deal with that as you said. And then you've got open source growing exponentially. Jim Zemlin at the Linux Foundation is saying 10% of the IP is going to be unique to the company. The rest is going to be that sandwich of open source. That's exponential growth. >> Right. >> You get exponential growth, new wave of software developers. You're a young gun, what's your view of the future? >> I mean, its funny, because it's like that first derivative is going exponential. The second derivative is going exponential. You know, I think we're going to see more and more innovation at the, ultimately what it's really about is delivering at the end application layer, right? Like, we're all here to be plumbing, right, and so the better we can be at being plumbing, the better the application developers can be at delivering innovation there. And so, I totally agree that the trend is going to go 90/10. And I think that was partly one of the reasons we started HashiCorp, because we'd look around and we're like it's insane that you have 30 to 50% of these companies doing platform engineering that's completely undifferentiated from anyone else. It's like you're deploying on the same vSphere VM as your competitor but you're rebuilding the whole platform. It's crazy, it's like you should have used an open source tool and focused on the application and not how to boot a vSphere into it. >> And the impact cost and time. >> Armon, one of the things we talk about, the only thing constant in this industry is that the pace of change keeps increasing. How are you dealing internally? How are customers doing? I think back two years, a year and a half ago I talked to a guy who was like, "Oh, Vagrant is like my favorite thing, "I've been using it ever." Now I talk to lots of customers that are, Vault is critical to their stacks that they're doing. HashiCorp looks very different than they did two years ago. How's that pace of change happening internally and with customers? >> Totally, and I think part of what we've done as actually since 2015 we haven't really introduced brand new products because our feeling is that it's becoming so confusing for the end users to really navigate this landscape. So, in 2015 we thought the landscape was confusing. Today it's multiplied by 100 or 1,000. >> We were at Amazon last week, we understand. >> Yeah, exactly. And I think honestly I think that is, when you look around here I think that's one of the challenges we're facing as an industry, is I go and meet with customers who are like, "Every time I refresh Hacker News, "there's 50 new things I need to go evaluate." It's like I don't know where to even begin. And its like, as a vendor I have a hard time keeping up with space, you know. I empathize with the end user who, it's not their full time job to do that. So, our goal has been to say how do we better distill at least the HashiCorp universe in terms of hey, here's how our pieces fit together and here's how we relate to everything else in the ecosystem, and kind of give our end users a map of okay, what tools play nice, how do these things sort of work together. But I think as a bigger industry we have a bit of an issue around the sheer amount of sort of innovation. How do we curate that and really make it more accessible? >> Armon, I've got to ask you a personal question. Obviously you guys are entrepreneurs doing a great job. Been following you guys, congratulations by the way. What are you most proud of as you look back and what do you wish you could do over? If you could get a mulligan and say "Okay, I want to do that differently." >> How much time do we have by the way? (laughing) >> 10 seconds, I'm going to ask you the parachute question next, go ahead. >> You know, I think the thing we're most proud of might be Terraform. I think it's fun to see sort of the level of ubiquity and the standardization that is taking place around it. Ah, the thing I wish we could take back is you know, probably our Otto project. I think the scope was so big for that thing and I think our eyes were probably a little wider than they should have been on that one. So I wish we had not committed to that one. >> You reign it in, catch the mistakes early. Okay, final question for you. You're a large customer and the plane is going down, you have 10 seconds to pick a parachute. Amazon, Azure or Google. Which one do you grab? >> Ooh. >> Go. >> You know, probably Amazon. No one ever gets fired for choosing Amazon. >> All right well Jeff Frick on our CUBE team said, "I'd take all three and call it Multi Cloud." >> That's the right answer. Armon, thanks for coming on appreciate it. Congratulations on your success at HashiCorp. >> My pleasure, thanks so much for having me. >> Got HashiCorp here on theCUBE, CTO and co-founder on theCUBE, Riding The Wave, CloudNative, Kupernetes, lot of great stuff happening. Microservices and containers. It's theCUBE doing our part here at KubeCon. We'll be right back with more live coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from Midtown Manhattan, it's theCUBE. Covering Big Data New York City 2017. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE media, and its ecosystem sponsor. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. We're here live in New York City for BigData NYC, our annual event with SiliconANGLE Media, theCUBE, and Wikibon, in conjunction with Strata Hadoop, which is now called Strata Data as that show evolves. I'm John Furrier, cohost of theCUBE, with Peter Burris, head of research for SiliconANGLE Media, and General Manager of Wikibon. Our next two guests are two legends in the big data industry, Rob Bearden, the CEO of Hortonworks, really one of the founders of the big data movement, you know, got Cloudaire and Hortonworks, really kind of built that out, and Rob Thomas, General Manager of IBM Analytics. Big-time investments have made both of them. Congratulations for your success, guys. Welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you guys! >> Great to see you. >> Great, yeah. >> And got an exciting partnership to talk about, as well. >> So, but let's do a little history, you guys, obviously, I want to get to that, and get clarified on the news in a second, but you guys have been there from the beginning, kind of looking at the market, developing it, almost from the embryonic state to now. I mean, what a changeover. Give a quick comparison of where we've come from and what's the current landscape now, because you have, it evolved into so much more. You got IOT, you got AI, you have a lot of things in the enterprise. You've got cloud computing. A lot of tailwinds for this industry. It's gotten bigger. It's become big and now it's huge. What's your thoughts, guys? >> You know I, so you look at arcs and really all this started with Hadoop, and Rob and I met early in the days of that. You kind of gone from the early few years is about optimizing operations. Hadoop is a great way for a company to become more efficient, take out costs in their data infrastructure, and so that put huge momentum into this area, and now we've kind of fast-forwarded to the point where now it's about, "So how "am I actually going to extract insight?" So instead of just getting operational advantages, how am I going to get competitive advantage, and that's about bringing the world of data science and machine learning, run it natively on Hadoop, that's the next chapter, and that's what Rob and I are working closely together on. >> Rob, your thoughts, too? You know, we've been talking about data in motion. You guys were early on in that, seeing that trend. Real time is still hot. Data is still the core asset people are trying to figure out and move from wrangling to actually enabling that data. >> Right. Well, you know, in the early days of Big Data, it was, to Rob's point, it was very much about bringing operational leverage and efficiency and being able to aggregate very siloed data sets, and unlocking that data and bringing it into a central platform. In the early days in resources, and Hadoop went to making Hadoop an enterprise-viable data platform, with security, governance, operations, management capability, that mirrored any of the proprietary transactional or EDW platforms, and what the lessons learned in that were, is that by bringing all that data together in a central data set, we now can understand what's happening with our customers, and with our other assets pre-transaction, and so they can become very prescriptive in engaging in new business models, and so what we've learned now is the further upstream we can get in the world of IOT and bring that data under management from the point of origination and be able to manage that all the way through its life cycle, we can create new business models with higher velocity of engagement and a lot more rapid value that gets created. It, though, creates a number of new challenges in all the areas of how you secure that data, how you bring governance across that entire life cycle from a common stream set. >> Well, let's talk about the news you guys have. Obviously, the partnership. Partnerships become the new normal in an open source era that we're living in. We're seeing open source software grow really exponentially in the forecast coming in the next five years and ten years and exponential growth in new code. Just new people coming on board, new developers, dev ops is mainstream. Partnerships are key for communities. 90% of the code is going to be open source, 10%, as they say, the Code Sandwich as Jim Zemlin, the executive director of Linux Foundation, wants to, and you're seeing that work. You guys have worked together with Apache Atlas. What's the news, what's the relationship with Hortonworks and IBM? Share the news. >> So, a lot of great work's been happening there, and generally in the open source community, around Apache Atlas, and making sure that we're bringing missing critical governance capabilities across the big data sets and environments. As we then get into the complexity of now multiple data lakes, multiple tiers of data coming from multiple sources, that brings a higher level of requirement in both the security and governance aspects, and that's where the partnership with IBM is continuing to drive Apache Atlas into mission critical enterprise viability, but then when we get into the distributed models and enterprise requirements, the IBM platforms leveraging Atlas and what we're doing together then take that into the mission critical enterprise capability. >> You got the open source, and now you got the enterprise. Rob, we've talked many times about the enterprise as a hard, hard environment to crack for say, a start up, but even now, they're becoming reliant on open source, but yet, they have a lot of operational challenges. How does this relate to the challenge of, you know, CIO and his staff, now new personas coming in, you seeing the data science role, you see it expanding from analytics to dev ops. A day of challenges. >> Look, enterprises are getting better at this. Clearly we've seen progress the last five years on that, but to kind of go back and link the points, there's a phrase I heard I like. It says, "There's no AI without IA," meaning information architecture. Fundamentally, what our partnership is about is delivering the right information architecture. So it's Hadoop federated with whatever you have in terms of warehouses and databases. We partner around IBM common sequel for that. It's meta data for your core governance because without governance you don't have compliance, you can't offer self-service analytics, so we are forming what I would call the fluid data layer for an enterprise that enables them to get to this future of AI, and my view is there's a stop in between, which is data science, machine learning, applications that are ready today that clients can put into production and improve the outcomes they're getting. That's what we're focused on right now is how do we take the information architecture we've been able to establish, and then help clients on this journey? That's what enterprises want, because that's how they're going to build differentiation in their businesses. >> But the definition of an information architecture is closest to applications, and maybe this informs your perspective, it's close to the applications that the business is running on. Goes back to your observation about, "We used to be focusing, optimizing operations." As you move away from those applications, your information architecture becomes increasingly diffuse. It's not as crystal clear. How do you drive that clarity, as the data moves to derived new applications? >> Rob and I have talked about this. I think we're at the dawn of probably a new era in application development. Much more agile, flexible applications that are taking advantage of data wherever it resides. We are really early in that. Right now we are in the let's actually put into practice, machine learning and data science, let's extract value the data we got, that will then inform a new set of applications, which is related to the announcements that Hortonworks made this week around data plane, which is looking at multi-cloud environments and how would you manage applications and data across those? Rob, you can speak to that better than I can, I think. >> Well, the data plan thing, this information architecture, I think you're 100% right on. The data that we're hearing from customers in the enterprise is, they see the IOT buzz, oh, of course they're going to connect with IOT devices down the road, but when they see the security challenges, when they see the operational challenges around hiring people to actually run the dev ops, they have to then re-architect. So there's certainly a conversation we see on what is the architecture for the data, but also a little bit bigger than that, the holistic architecture of, say, cloud. So a lot of people are like, trying to clean up their house, if you will, to be ready for this new era, and I think Wikibon, your private cloud report you guys put out really amplified that by saying, "Yeah, they see these trends, "but they got to kind of get their act together." They got to look at who the staff is, what the data architecture's going to be, what apps are being developed, so doing a lot more retrenching. Given that, if we agree, what does that mean for the data plane, and then your vision of having that data architecture so that this will be a solid foundational transition? >> I think we all hit on the same point, which is it is about enabling a next generation IT architecture, of which, sort of the X and the Y axis or network, and generally what Big Data's been able to do, and Hadoop specifically, was over the last five years, enabling the existing applications architected, and I like the term that's been coined by you, is they were known processes with known technology, and that's how applications in the last 20 years have been enabled. Big Data and Hadoop generally have unlocked that ability to now be able to move all the way out to the edge and incorporate IOT, data at rest, data in motion, on-prem and cloud hybrid architecture. What that's done is said, "Now we know how to build an "application that takes advantage of an event or an "occurrence and then can drive outcome in a variety of ways. "We don't have to wait for a static programming model "to automate a function." >> And in fact, if we are wait, we're going to fail. That's one of the biggest challenges. I mean, IBM, I will tell you guys, or I'll tell you, Rob, that one of the craziest days I've ever spent is I flew from Japan to New York City for the IBM Information Architecture Announcement back in like 1994, and it was the most painful two days I've ever experienced in my entire life. That's a long time ago. It's ancient history. We can't use information architecture as a way of slowing things down. What we need to be able to do is we need to be able to introduce technology that again, allows the clarity of information architecture close to these core applications to move, and that may involve things like machine learning itself being embedded directly into how we envision data being moved, how we envision optimization, how we envision the data plane working. So, as you guys think about this data plane, everybody ends up asking themselves, "Is there a natural place for data to be?" What's going to be centralized, what's going to be decentralized, and I'm asking you, is increasingly the data going to be decentralized but the governance and securities and policies that we put in place going to be centralized and that's what's going to inform the operation of the data plane? What do you guys think? >> It's our view, very specifically from Hortonworks' perspective, that we want to give the ability for the data to exist and reside wherever the physics dictate, whether that be on-prem, whether that be in the cloud, and we want to give the ability to process and take action on an event or an occurrence or drive and outcome as early in the cycle as possible. >> Describe what you mean by "early in the cycle." >> So, as we see conditions emerge. A machine part breaking down. A customer taking an action. A supply chain inventory outage. >> So as close as possible to the event that's generating the data. >> As it's being generated, or as the processes are leading up to the natural outcome and we can maybe disintermediate for a better outcome, and so, that means that we have to be able to engage with the data irrespective of where it is in its cycle, and that's where we've enabled, with data plane, the ability to extract out the requirement of where that data is, and to be able to have a common plane, pun intended, for the operations and managing and provisioning of the environment, for being able to govern that and secure it, which are increasingly becoming intertwined, because you have to deal with it from point of origin through point at rest. >> The new phrase, "The single plane of glass." All joking aside, I want to just get your thoughts on this, Rob, too. "What's in it for me? "I'm the customer. "Right now I have a couple challenges." This is what we hear from the market. "I need data consistency because things are happening in "real time; whatever events are going on with data, we know "more data's going to be coming out from the edge and "everywhere else, faster and more volume, so I need "consistency of my data, and I don't want "to have multiple data silos," and then they got to integrate the data, so on the application developer side, a dev ops-like ethos is emerging where, "Hey, if there's data being done, I need to integrate that "into my app in real time," so those are two challenges. Does the data plane address that concern for customers? That's the question. >> Today it enables the ops world. >> So I can integrate my apps into the data plane. >> My apps and my other data assets, irrespective of where they reside, on-prem, cloud, or out to the edge, and all points in between. >> Rob, for enterprise, is this going to be the single pane of glass for data governance? Is that how the vision that you guys see this, because that's a benefit. If that could happen, that's essentially one step towards the promised land, if you will, for more data flowing through apps and app developers. >> So let me reshape a little bit. There's two main problems that collectively we have to address for enterprises: one is they want to apply machine learning and data science at scale, and they're struggling with that, and two is they want to get the cloud, and it's not talked about nearly enough, but most clients are really struggling with that. Then you fast forward on that one, we are moving to a multi-cloud world, absolutely. I don't think any enterprise is going to standardize on a single cloud, that's pretty clear. So you need things like data plane that acknowledge it's a multi-cloud world, and even as you move to multi clouds, you want a single focus for your data governance, a single strategy for your data governance, and then what we're doing together with IBM Data Science Experience with Hortonworks, let's say, whatever data you have in there, you can now do your machine learning right where that data is. You don't need to move it around. You can if you want, but you don't have to move it around, 'cause it's built in, and it's integrated right into the Hadoop ecosystem. That solves the two main enterprise pain points, which is help me get the cloud, help me apply data science and machine learning. >> Well we'll have to follow up and we'll have to do just a segment just on that. I think multi-cloud is clearly the direction, but what the hell does that mean? If I run 365 on Azure, that's one app. If I run something else on Amazon, that's multiple clouds, not necessarily moving workloads across. So the question I want to ask here is, it's clear from customers they want single code bases that run on all clouds seamlessly so I don't have to scale up on things on Amazon, Azure, and Google. Not all clouds are created equal in how they do things. Storage, through ever, inside the data factories of how they process. That's a challenge. How do you guys see that playing out of, you have on-premise activities that have been bootstrapped. Now you have multiple clouds with different ways of doing things, from pipelining, ingestion and processing, and learning. How do you see that playing out? Clouds just kind of standardizing around data plane? >> There's also the complexity of even within the multi-clouds, you're going to have multiple tiers within the clouds, if you're running in one data center in Asia, versus one in Latin America, maybe a couple across the Americas. >> But as a customer, do I need to know the cloud internals of Amazon, Azure, and Google? >> You do. In a stand-alone world, yes you do. That's where we have to bring and abstract the complexity of that out, and that's the goal with data plane, is to be able to extract, whether it's, which tier it's in, on-prem, or whether it's on, irrespective of which cloud platform. >> But Rob Thomas, I really like the way you put it. There may be some other issues that users have to worry about, certainly there are some that we think, but the two questions of, "Where am I going to run the machine learning," and "How am I going to get that to the cloud appropriately," I really like the way you put that. At the end of the day, what users need to focus on is less where the application code is, and more where the data is, so that they can move the application code or they can move the work to the data. That's fundamentally the perspective. We think that businesses don't take their business to the cloud, they bring the cloud to their business. So, when you think about this notion of increasingly looking at a set of work that needs to be performed, where the data exists, and what acts you're going to take in that data, it does suggest that data is going to become more of a centerpiece asset within the business. How does some of the things that you guys are doing lead customers to start to acknowledge data as an asset so they're making the appropriate investments in their data as their business evolves, and partly in response to data as an asset? What do you think? >> We have to do our job to build to common denominators, and that's what we're doing to make this easy for clients. So today we announced the IBM integrated analytics system. Same code base on private cloud as on a hardware system as on public cloud, all of it federates to Hortonworks through common sequel. That's what clients need, 'cause it solves their problem. Click of a button, they can get the cloud, and by the way, on private cloud it's based on Kubernetes, which is aligned with what we have on public cloud. We're working with Hortonworks to optimize Yarn and Kubernetes working together. These are the meaty issues that if we don't solve it, then clients have to deal with the bag of bolts, and so that's the kind of stuff we're solving together. So think about it: one single code base for managing your data, federates to Hadoop, machine learning is built into the system, and it's based on Kubernetes, that's what clients want. >> And the containers is just great, too. Great cloud-native trend. You guys been great, active in there. Congratulations to both of you guys. Final question, get you guys the last word: How does the relationship between Hortonworks and IBM evolve? How do you guys see this playing out? More of the same? Keep integrating in code? Is there any new thing you see on the horizon that you're going to be knocking down in the future? >> I'll take the first shot. The goal is to continue to make it simple and easy for the customer to get to the cloud, bring those machine learning and data science models to the data, and make it easy for the consumption of the new next generation of applications, and continue to make our customer successful and drive value, but to do it through transparently enabling the technology platforms together, and I think we've acknowledged the things that IBM is extraordinarily good at, the things that Hortworks is good at, and bring those two together with virtually no overlap. >> Rob, you've been very partner-centric. Your thoughts on this partnership? >> Look, it's what clients want. Since we announced this, the results and the response has been fantastic, and I think it's for one simple reason. So, Hortonworks' mission, we all know, is open source, and delivering in the community. They do a fantastic job of that. We also know that sometimes, clients need a little bit more, and so, when you bring those two things together, that's what clients want. That's very different than what other people in the industry do that say, "We're going to create a proprietary wrapper "around your Hadoop environment and lock your data in." That's the opposite of what we're doing. We're saying we're giving you full freedom of open source, but we're enabling you to augment that with machine learning, data science capabilities. This is what clients want. That's why the partnership's working. I think that's why we've gotten the response that we have. >> And you guys have been multiple years into the new operating model of being much more aggressive within the Big Data community, which has now morphed into much larger landscape. You pleased with some of the results you're seeing on the IBM side and more coding, more involvement in these projects on your end? >> Yeah, I mean, look, we were certainly early on Spark, created a lot of momentum there. I think it actually ended up helping both of our interests in the market. We built a huge community of developers at IBM, which is not something IBM had even a few years ago, but it's great to have a relationship like this where we can continue to augment our skills. We make each other better, and I think what you'll see in the future is more on the governance side; I think that's the piece that's still not quite been figured out by most enterprises yet. The need is understood. The implementation is slow, so you'll see more from us collectively there. >> Well, congratulations in the community work you guys have done. I think the community's model's evolving mainstream as well. Open source will continue to grow. Congratulations. Rob Bearden and Rob Thomas here inside theCUBE, more coverage here in Big Data NYC with theCUBE, after this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit North America 2017, brought to you by The Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hello there and welcome to our special exclusive SiliconANGLE Media CUBE coverage here in Los Angeles, California, for the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, my co-host, Stu Miniman, for the two days of wall-to-wall coverage, this is day two of our coverage of what's going on in the Open Source world as the Linux Foundation consolidates their shows into a big tent event. This is the inaugural event of now consolidated, a bunch of little shows come together. This is the big show where the Linux Foundation brings their entire communities together to talk and cross-pollinate with Jim Zemlin, the Executive Director, as they outline that. Stu, we're in our kickoff of day two, we're going to do some analysis and commentary, but before we start I want to get your thoughts on just day one. Yesterday we had a lot of guests, a lot of activities going on at night, we kind of divided and conquered. What did you find out? >> Yeah so John you'd done some coverage of LinuxCon a couple of years ago, it's my first time coming to this show. We do a lot of Open Source coverage with theCUBE's over the years, so coming in it was like, okay, what are we going to be talking about, what's the vibe? And being a big tent event, you know, I was a little surprised to see, I mean, the conversation's the same that we've been hearing the last year. Kubernetes, kind of the big wave that's coming in, not just in Open Source, but really the conversation in cloud, and really was kind of the top issue that kind of containerization, the new way of architecting things, you know, Linux absolutely is down there underneath, and majorly important but, you know, it seems to be that rallying around everything Kubernetes. MesosCon's right next door, and we said two years ago you never would have thought that, Kubernetes, that Mesos would be saying, you know, the best place to run Kubernetes is on DCOS. You know, it was the container wars, the orchestration wars, all those things. Kubernetes really leading the charge there, and it really fed into a lot of the conversations we had here. And in our conversations, like with Christine Corbett, and in some of the keynotes this morning, really talking about the power of collaboration, community, you know, stuff like that, we were passionate about John. >> Yeah, I mean, Stu, here's my take on the big story coming out of L.A. for this event. And I think the top line story is this. The Open Source community has had so much success going in the early days and depending which generation you want to call it, you know, we're a little bit older, old school, maybe fourth generation, you can argue the point but here's the bottom line. The big story is that the Linux Foundation, Linux apps, are everywhere, it's a global standard, it is happening. And the scale of which the growth that's going to be coming is unprecedented, and I think for the first time in the history of the computer industry, you're seeing a pause. You're seeing a moment of excitement from the executive director, the Linux Foundation, the board members, and the participants in the community who are realizing, holy shit, this is going to grow very huge. And Open Source is going to go to a whole 'nother growth level, it's going to be exponential in scale, and you're going to see some blitzscaling going on, as Jerry Chen at Greylock and Reid Hoffman talk about. And that's going to change the nature of the participation. You're going to start to see new accelerated things, certification, the role of the foundation certainly has always been to serve the sustainable communities of Open Source. Their role will change as stewards of Open Source, the responsibility and the reliance on the Open Source software will continue to grow, and I think that scale phenomenon of Open Source is, potentially, might be the biggest wave of all, Stu, and I think some people are going to be washed like driftwood and some people are going to thrive and survive. >> You know, it's interesting, we look back at Linux, and Linux took a long time, you know, more than a decade, to really kind of gain mainstream adoption. You know, Red Hat, of course came out of with kind of the leadership and the dollars, but Linux was the foundation for everything being built today. There would be no Google without Linux. There would be no Amazon as we know it today without Linux. And I really liked, I think it was strong resonance, everybody's a little surprised, Joseph Gordon-Levitt in the keynote this morning, someone that we know, you know, from the movies, and we're here in L.A., they're like, oh great, they brought an actor. Well, he's actually pretty passionate. He has this website hitrecord.org, where they do, you know, collaboration, and it's people that are drawing and creating music and creating little clips and everything and they said how a community can help build on what they're doing. He said it's about community, fair compensation, and collaborating, rather than just socializing and sharing or any of those things. And something we've talked a lot is, what is the translation of participating in the community translate into dollars, translate into value. I know it's something you're really passionate about. >> Yeah, Stu, this is again, the big story is the growth. But let's unpack that a little bit. Open Source has always been about sharing, it's always been about community, it's been about innovation, freedom, they called them radicals in the early days but now they got to grow, flexibility, and execution. Here's the bottom line. The leadership of the Open Source is going to morph radically. Look at the program here. You got inclusion, you got a little politics, not like politics of open source, politics of cultural shaping with Christine Corbett Morgan, so she's talking about that, it's very relevant. You have Dan Lyons coming in, talking about the programmer culture, you have the actor coming in talking about collective intelligence. I believe that there's going to be a new way of how people are going to be compensated, how participation's going to scale and this comes down to some key tell tale signs. One, a new generation's coming into the Open Source world, this younger generation. They love Serverless, the love DevOps, because they don't want to deal with the infrastructure. So all the old folks, guys like our age, and gals, they have to provide leadership. I talked with Sam Ramji about this in detail, about how some of these stewards in the community have to step up and be leaders in a new way of governing because as the onboarding of more source code, more projects with IOT, with cloud, you're going to see a new generation of young developers that quite frankly are going to want to run fast, run faster, and they don't want to deal with networking, they don't want to, they want serverless, they want true programmable infrastructure, and that's going to potentially cause some changes, maybe at the leadership level but also how they run things. So, I think, Stu, this is something that we're watching as a big wave. >> Yeah, and it's funny because, we always talk, I'd love to be able to extract a way, even virtualization, oh, we're going to make it real simple, you don't have to worry it anymore, well, you know, John, we got some more interviews today, you know. Networking, storage, these things just don't magically, fairy dust, everything works really well, you know. Data has gravity, networking has lots of challenges we have to worry about. Open Source is now infused into all of these environments. Really helping to build those distributed architectures. We had a number of interviews yesterday talking about, these things are not easy, these are tough challenges. You know, even you talk to people and say, "Kubernetes is awesome," sure is not simple, it is not easy to crawl out. >> They've not graduated any projects out of the CNCF yet, talking to Chris yesterday, the COO, he said, "look, we haven't even graduated anything out of," but this is the point, Stu. Kubernetes is a tell sign, that's not fully-baked yet, it's an under-the-hood feature. Serverless, which I love the name and hate it at the same time because there's servers out there. The notion is that the due developers don't want a provision hardware, to them they just want a resource pool, so serverless is a good trend. The name is kind of weak in my opinion, but I kind of love it and hate it at the same time, I mean. >> John, it's just like cloud was 10 years ago. >> What do you think of Serverless, Stu? I mean bottom line is that how could you not like Serverless because as a developer you're just programming infrastructure as code. >> Right, absolutely, I want to be able to use things in a much more granular format, I want to be able to when I'm not using it not pay for it, it really fits into that environment. Something of course, with this show we're talking about is today, you say Serverless, I think AWS Lambda. The proprietary offering, how does something like Kubernetes fit into that? There's containers underneath, but there are a few different Open Source versions that functions as a service. There's Open FaaS, there's OpenWhisk, there's a couple of others, so how will I be able to take what we were liking about containers in general and Kubernetes specifically, that I can work across a number of environments to make sure that I'm not, John, I'm going to say the word, locked in, to a certain provider or a certain piece of the ecosystem. >> Well, Open Source is so robust right now. Again, 10% of the original ideas can be written in code that could be part of the 90% Open Source base code base. Jim Zemlin, the executive director called that the Code Sandwich. But the bottom line in my opinion, Stu, and you were just pointing it out is that the leadership has to scale. And I think one of the things that came up in some of my hallway conversations last night, talking to some folks who have been early on in Open Source, in the old days you had to hate someone, there was an enemy. There was Microsoft, and now they're on board. There was the big proprietary main mini-computer guys, the proprietary operating systems, they were the enemy. Who's the enemy now? The enemy is slowness, right? So, kind of the fundamental question is, Open Source doesn't have that enemy anymore, it's the standard. So the question is what is going to motivate the organizations? To me, I think it's speed. Speed is the new normal, scale is the new normal. Slowness and silos will be the enemy. >> Absolutely, John. It's something I've heard at a number of events we've been at recently, companies' number one thing is not cost, it's speed, and one of the reasons that so many companies work on, contribute to Open Source is to help them with that speed. They can't wait for the turn of the crank from the old software beast, or oh gosh, there are some chips or hardware involved in that? Open Source, I want to be able to contribute to the code, work on the code, ship it, move faster. >> And the other thing that came up yesterday, I want to get your thoughts and reaction to, is do you have a fashion model going on here? Never fight fashion, as we say, a good marketer would say. You have CNCF is very fashionable right now. But there's blogging and tackling projects that have been around for a while, like the networking piece. These are stable, great projects. They just don't have the pomp and circumstance as CNCF have. So, the balance of being trendy is an issue now for these Open Source communities. No one wants to work on a project that's boring but the relevance is important. So how do you react to that, Stu, because this is now a dynamic, it's kind of been there for a while, but now with the plethora of projects out there, are you nervous that fashion, fashionable trendy projects like CNCF, might suck all the option out of the governance? >> No, John, I mean, from a press and a marketing standpoint they get the attention, but I think that the stats really prove out, there's so many projects out there. Everybody's contributing to a lot of them, but it is something the developers should think about. We did an interview of a company, I remember years back, said, "how do you get the best people "and how do they choose what to do?" "Oh, whatever they feel is good." And I'm like, well, come on, you got to put a little bit of a business guidance on that to make sure what's going to help your business, what's going to help your career, if you're an individual contributing to this. There are plenty of options out there, both for starting new things as well as contributing to the big ones out there. And I liked what I was hearing from the Linux Foundation as to how they're going to give some governance to companies as to the health, that whole CHAOSS that they rolled out, talk about the health and the circular maintenance of things out there, but you know, so much activity. Kubernetes by no means is taking all of the attention, it just happens to be the current hotness. >> Well, there's some key under-the-hood details that are being worked on, that's the exciting part. Linux is a standard, it is powering. Most of the apps that are written are essential Linux apps if you look at the OS underneath. And again, the apps, again, the DevOps mindset is here, and now it's scaling and things like Serverless are going to be more greatness for developers, certainly as companies like Google, IBM, and others come in with real code and share and collaborate, a lot of people can participate in the greatness of Open Source, and I think that's, the future is bright for Linux and the Open Source Summit community. Stu, day two continues, live coverage here in Los Angeles. This is theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. Coverage of the Open Source Summit North America, in Los Angeles. We'll be right back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

(gentle music) >> Announcer: Live, from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit, North America, 2017, brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay welcome back, and we're live here in Los Angeles, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Linux Foundation's Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, your host with my co-host Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Chris Aniszczyk, who's the COO, Chief Operating Officer of the CNCF, the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, formerly Cube-Con, Cloud Native Foundation, all rolled into the most popular Linux Foundation project right now, very fashionable, cloud native, running on native clouds, Chris welcome back to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Awesome, it's been a while, great to be back. >> So you are the Chief Operating Officer of the hottest project, to me at least, in the Foundation. Not the most important, because there's a lot of really important, everything's important, you don't pick a favorite child, but, if one's trending, the CNCF is certainly trending, it's got the most sponsors, it's got the most participants, there's so much action going on, there's so much change and opportunity, around Kubernetes, around containers, around writing cloud-native applications. You've guys have really put together a nice foundation around that, nice group, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Take a step back and explain to us, what the hell is the CNCF? We know what it is, we were there present at creation, but it's super-important, it's growing in relevance every day. Take a minute to explain. >> So I mean, you know, CNCF is all about providing a neutral home for cloud-native technology, and it's been about almost two years since our first board meeting and the idea was, there's a certain set of technology out there that are essentially micro-service-based, that live in containers that are centrally orchestrated by some process, right, that's essentially what we mean when we say cloud-native, right, and CNCF was seeded with Kubernetes as its first project, and as we've seen over the last couple of years, Kubernetes has grown quite well, they have a large community, diverse contributor base, and have done kind of extremely well. They're one of actually the fastest, highest velocity open source projects out there, maybe only, compared to the kernel is maybe a little bit faster but it's just great to kind of see it growing. >> Why is it so hot right now? What's the catalyst? >> So I think if we kind of step back and we look at the trends in industry, right, more and more companies are becoming software companies, you know, folks like John Deere, building IoT platforms. You need some type of infrastructure to run this stuff, and especially at scale. You know, imagine sensors in every tractor, farm or in every vehicle, you're going to need serious infrastructure and cloud native really is a way to scale those type of infrastructure needs and so this is kind of I think why you're seeing a lot of interest being piqued in CNCF-related technology. >> A lot of prototypes too. >> Chris, see you know, it's interesting, I look back you know, a year or two ago, and it was like, oh, it was like the orchestration wars, it was Swarm versus Mesos, and now I look at it in the last year it's like, wait, Mesos fully embracing it, MesosCon they're going to be talking about how Mesos is the best place to you know, Kubernetes on DCOS, containerd now part of the container wars, so the container wars, we're going to talk about OCI, you know, Amazon, Microsoft, of course Google, out there at the beginning. Is there anybody that's not on board that Kubernetes... >> I mean we really have the top five cloud providers in the world, depending on what metrics you look at, part of CNCF, you know there's some others out there that still aren't fully part of the family. Hopefully if you stay tuned over the next week or so you may hear some announcements coming from CNCF of other large cloudy-type companies joining the family. >> Every week there's a new platinum sponsor (Chris laughs) and you guys are getting a check every week it seems. >> To me it's great to see companies stepping up to the play and actually sustaining open source foundations that are critical to the actual business, and I think that it's great to see this involvement. So to me I'm personally thrilled, 'cause otherwise we'd be in a situation where if the top five cloud providers in the world weren't part of CNCF, maybe they'd be trying to do their own initiative, so it's great that we have these companies at the table, and all trying to build, you know, find their own pathway to cloud-native. >> You guys are hyper-growth right now, and you're new too, you're still kind of you know, >> Chris: Less than two years old! >> I mean it's amazing. So I want to put a little Jim Zemlin test to you, (Chris laughs) which is, in his keynote today he talked about, this is the big kind of event for the whole community of open source to come together, and again, you're talking 64 million libraries out there now. He projected by 2026, 400 million, it literally is a hockey stick growth, so you got growth there, so he talked about four things, my summary. Project health, so healthiness, sustainability, secure code, training, new members. What's your strategy re those four things? Keeping the CNCF healthy, you don't eat too much and choke on all of that growth... >> Yeah, so in terms of projects, we have a very unique governance structure in place when we designed CNCF. So we kind of have this independent technical operating committee, we kind of jokingly refer to them as a technical supreme court, but they are made up of people from, kind of luminaries in the container cloud-native space, they're from competing companies too, but they try to really wear an independent hat and make sure that we're, projects that we're accepting are high quality, are a good fit for the foundation, and so it's actually fairly hard to get a project in CNCF, 'cause it really requires the blessing of this TOC. So, even though we have 10 projects now in about two years, I think that's about a project every two months, which is an okay pace. The other unique thing that we're doing is we have different levels of projects, we have inception, incubation and graduation. Right now, we have no graduated projects in CNCF, believe it or not, Kubernetes has not graduated yet because they're still finalizing their governance for the project and they're almost there. Once they do that, they'll most likely graduate. >> They'll walk cap and gown all nine yards, eh? >> Exactly, it'll be great. December we'll have the cap and gown ceremony. But the other unique thing is we're not, we do annual kind of reviews for some of our projects, certain levels will be annually reviewed, and if they're not longer healthy or a good fit, we're okay archiving them, or telling, you know, telling them you know, maybe you're not a good fit anymore for the foundation, or you know. And so I think you have to have a process in place where sometimes you do have to move things to the attic. >> Do you have a high bar on the projects >> The initial bar is extremely, extremely high, and I think over time, we may see some projects that get recycled or moved to the attic, or maybe they maybe merged together, we'll see, so we're thinking about this already, so... >> John: Okay, security? >> Security, so we, all projects in CNCF that graduate have to partake in the core infrastructures best practices badging program, so if the CII has this great effort that is basically helping to ensure projects meet a minimal level of best practices that make their projects secure. You know, it doesn't give you like full-blown guarantee, but these are good practices. >> So you were leveraging pre-existing work, classic, open-source ethos. >> Exactly, and they have like a set of domain experts completely focused on security building out these practices and you'll notice Kubernetes recently merged in the CII Best Practices badge, so if you go to the readme, you'll actually see it, and you'll click through and you'll see all the things that they've had to sign off and check on that they participate in, and so all of our projects are kind of going >> Training. >> Training, yeah, we just recently announced couple things. One is we have a >> Looking good so far, you get an A plus. >> Yeah, so as of today we've launched the Certified Kubernetes Administrator Program or CKA for short. So we have folks that are getting trained on, and are having official stamps that they are certified Kubernetes administrators, and to me that's huge, given like how hot the space is, having some stamp of approval that they are really certified in the space is huge. So we also offer free training through edX, so we launched some training courses earlier, and to be honest, if you look at our member companies, lots of great folks out there providing training material. >> So one of the keynotes that Christine Corbett Moran was talking about in her keynote was, more inclusion so there's no ruling class. Now I know you really have a ruling class going on with your high bar, I get that. How are you getting new members in, what's the strategy, who are the new members, how are you going to manage the perception possibly that a few people control the swing votes at potentially big projects? >> So here what's interesting is, people joining CNCF, like I mentioned before, we have a TOC, right? So there's kind of this separation of, I don't say church and state, but like, so the governing board, people who pay to join CNCF, they pay to sustain our open source projects, and so essentially they help with, they pay for marketing, staff, events and so on. They actually don't have technical influence over the projects. You don't have to be a member to have technical influence over our projects. People join CNCF because they want to have a say in the overall budget of how marketing, events and stuff, and just overall support the organization. But on the technical side, there's this kind of firewall, there's an independent TOC, they make the technical decisions. You can't really pay to join that at all, you have to actually be heavily participating in that community. >> John: How does someone get in that group? Is there a code? >> They have to just be like a luminary, we have a kind of election process that happens every two or three years, depending on how things are structured, and it's independently elected by the CNCF member community, essentially, is the simplest way I can explain it. >> The other announcement you talked about, kind of the individual certification, but the KCSP sort of programs >> Correct, exactly. >> Maybe you can tell us a little bit about that. >> Yes, so we had a program set up so it's Kubernetes Certified Service Provider, KCSP, that basically >> rolls right off the tongue >> I know, right, exactly. Herbal space program, whatever, I think of sometimes video games when we say it, but essentially, the program was put in place that a lot of end users out there in companies that are new to cloud native, and they're new to Kubernetes, essentially want to find a trusted set of partners that they can rely on, services and other things, so we created KCSP as a way to vet a certain set of companies that have at least a minimum of three people that have passed the Kubernetes certification exam that I talked about, and are essentially participating upstream in some way actively in the Kubernetes community. So we got a couple handfuls of companies that have launched, which is great, and so now, given that we're growing so fast, companies out there that are early end users that are exploring the space now have a trusted set of companies that go look at, and we're hoping to grow that program over time too. So this is just phase one. >> All right, so Chris, the other thing that I want to make sure we talk about, the Open Container Initiative, so I think it was originally OCP, which of course is, >> Open Container Project which when OCP was announced, it was like, okay, the cold war of Docker versus CoreOS versus everybody else, (Chris laughs) trying to figure out what that container format was, we all shook hands, I took a nice selfie with Ben who was CEO at the time, and everybody. So 1.0 is out. So, container's fully mature, ready to be rolled out right? But what does it mean? >> So I mean it's funny 'cause I basically joined the Linux Foundation, to help both start CNCF and OCI around the same time, right, and OCI was very narrowly scoped to only care about a small set of container-specific issues. One around how do you actually really run containers, start, stop, all that kind of life cycle bit, and how are containers laid out on disk, we call that the image specification. So you have the runtime spec and the image spec, and those are just very limited core pieces, like that OCI was not opinionated on networking or storage or any of, those are all left to other initiatives. And so after almost two years, we shipped 1.0, we got basically all the major container players to agree that this is 1.0 and we're going to build off from this, and so if you look at Docker with it's containerd project, or you know, fully adopting OCI, the Mesos community is, Cloud Foundry, even AWS announced their container register's supporting OCI, so we got the 1.0 out there, now we're going to see an abundance of people building tools and other things. I think you'll see more end users out there exploring containers. I've talked to a lot of companies that I can't necessarily name, but there's a lot of folks out there that may not dive into container technology until there is actually a mature standard and they feel like this technology is just not going to go away or they're going to get locked into some specific platforms. So, with 1.0 out the door, you'll see over the next six to 12 months, more tools being built. We're actually working to roll out a certification program so you get that nice little, you know, hey, this product is OCI-certified and supports the spec, so you'll see that happen over the next... >> Okay, so you've got the runtime spec and the image format spec, >> Yep, those are the two big ones. >> All 1.0, we're ready to roll, what's the roadmap >> Yeah, what's next. So there are early discussions about what other mature areas are out there kind of in container land right now. There are some discussions around distribution, so having a standard API to basically fetch and push container images out there. If you look at it, each container registry has basically a different set of APIs, and wouldn't it be nice if we could all kind of easily work together and have maybe one set, a way to kind of distribute these things. So there are some early discussions around potentially building out a distribution specification, but that's something that the technical community has to decide within OCI to do, and so over the next couple of months we're having some meetings, we're doing a bigger meeting at DockerCon Europe coming up in October to basically try to figure out what's really next. So I think after we shipped 1.0 a lot of people took a little bit of a breather, a break, and say like, congratulate themselves, take some vacation over the summer, and now we're going to get back into the full swing of things over the next couple of months. >> Say, what's the big conversation here, obviously at your event in Austin, it's got a plug for, theCUBE will be live covering it as well. >> I know, I'm excited. >> What's the uptake, what's the conversation in the hallways, any meetings, give us some >> Yeah, so we're doing >> I know there's some big announcement coming on Wednesday, there's some stuff happening >> Yeah, so, you know, first coming Wednesday, so like I mentioned, we have 10 projects right now in CNCF. We have two projects currently out for vote. So one of them is Envoy. There's a company you've probably heard of, Lyft, ride-sharing company, but Envoy essentially is their fancy service mesh that powers the Lyft platform, and many other companies out there are actually taking advantage of Envoy. Google's playing around with it, integrating into the Istio project, which is pretty powerful, but Envoy is currently, it was invited by the TOC for a formal vote, the voting period started last week, so we're collecting votes from the nine TOC members, and once that voting period is hopefully we can announce whether the project was accepted or not. The other project in the pipeline is a project called Jaeger, which is from Uber, you know, nice to have Uber >> John: Jaegermeister. >> Yeah, Jaegermeister, a bit like it. It's nice to have a product from Uber, another product from Lyft, kind of it's nice to see >> And if you have too much Jaeger, you have to take the Lyft to get home, right? >> Exactly, correct. So you know, just like Envoy, Jaeger is, you know, was formally invited by the TOC, it's out for vote, and hopefully we'll count the votes soon and figure out if it gets accepted or not. So Jaeger is focused on distributed tracing, so one problem in micro-services land is once you kind of like refactor your application to kind of be micro-services-based, actually tracing and figuring out what happens when things go wrong is hard, and you need a really good set of distributed tracing tools, 'cause otherwise it's like the worst murder mystery, you have like no idea what's happened, so having solid distributed tracing solution like Jaeger is great, 'cause in CNCF we're going to have a project called OpenTracing, but that's just kind of like the spec of how you do things, there's no full-blown client-server distributed >> For instance you usually need it for manageability >> Exactly, and that's what Jaeger provides, and I'm excited to kind of have these two projects under consideration in CNCF. >> Is manageability the hottest thing going on right now in terms of conversations? (Chris sighs) Or is it more stability and getting projects graduating? >> Yeah, so like our big focus is like, we want to see projects graduate, kind of meet the minimum bar that the TOC set up for graduated projects. In terms of other hot areas that are under discussion in CNCF are storage, so for example we have a storage working group that's been working hard to kind of bring in all the vendors and different storage folks together, and there's some early work called the container storage interface, we call it CSI for short, and so you know there's another project at CNCF called CNI, which basically tried to build a standard around how networking is done in container land. CSI is doing the same thing because, you know, it's no fun rewriting your storage drivers for all the different orchestration systems out there, and so why not get together and build out a standard that is used by Kubernetes, by Mesos, by Cloud Foundry, by Docker, and just have it so they all work across these things. So that's what's happening, and it's still early days, but there's a lot of excitement in that. >> Okay, the event in Austin, what can people expect? Cube-Con. >> You're literally going to have the biggest gathering of Kubernetes and cloud-native talent. It's actually going to be one of our biggest events probably for the Linux Foundation at all. We're probably going to get 3-4,000 people minimum out there, and I'm stoked, we're going to have some... Schedule's not fully announced yet. I do secretly know some of the keynotes potentially, but just wait for that announcement, I promise you it's going to be great. >> And one question I get, just I thought I'd bring it up since you're here in the hot seat, lot of people coming in with, supporting you guys on the governing side, not even cyclical. How are you going to service them, how are you going to scale up, do you have confidence that you have the ability to execute against those sponsorships, support the members, what's your plan, can you share some insights, clarify that? >> You know, pressure makes diamonds, right? We have a lot of people at the right table, and we are doing some hiring, so we have a couple spots open for developer advocacy, technical writing, you know additive things that help our project overall. We're also trying to hire a head of marketing. So like, we are in the process of expanding the organization. >> Do you feel comfortable... >> I feel comfortable, like things are growing, things are moving at a fast clip, but we're doing the best we can to hire and don't be surprised if you hear some announcements soon about some fun hires. >> Well it's been great for us covering, we've been present and creating, if you will, this movement, which has been kind of cool, because it kind of a confluence of a couple of things coming together. >> Chris: Yeah, absolutely. >> It's just been really fun to watch, just the momentum from the cloud really early days, 2009 timeframe to now, it's been a real nice ride and congratulations to the entire community. >> Thank you, like for me it's just exciting to have all these companies sitting together at the same table, having Amazon join, and the other top fighters, all basically committing to saying, we are in the cloud-native, we may have different ways of getting there, but we're all committed working together at some level. So I'm stoked. >> Great momentum, and you guys doing some great work, congratulations. >> Thank you very much. >> And you know it's working when I get focused, hey can you, so and so, I'm like, oh yeah, no problem, oh wow, they're big time now, you guys are big time. Congratulations. >> Thank you, it's in phase one now, like we have the right people at the table >> Don't screw it up! (John and Chris laugh) As they say. It's on yours. Chris Aniszczyk, who's the COO of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, the hottest area of Linux Foundation right now, a lot of action on cloud, cloud-native developers where DevOps is meeting, lot of progress in application development. Still, they're really only two years old, get involved, more inclusion the better. It's theCUBE, Cube coverage of CNCF. We'll be in Austin in December. >> Chris: Yep, six to eight. >> December 6 to 8, we'll be there live. More live coverage coming back in Los Angeles here for the Open Source Summit North America after this short break.

>> [Voiceover] Live, from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE. Covering Open Source Summit, North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation, and Red Hat.>> Hello everyone, welcome back to our special Cube live coverage of Linux Foundation's Open Source Summit North America here in LA, I'm John Furrier your co-host with Stu Mitiman. Our next guest is Christine Corbett Moran, Ph.D. at astronomy, astrophysics post-doctoral fellow at Caltech.>> That's right, it's a mouthful.>> Welcome to theCUBE, a mouthful but you're also keynoting, gave one of the talks opening day today after Jim Zemlin, on tech and culture and politics.>> That's right, yeah.>> Which I thought was fantastic. A lot of great notes there. Connect the dots for us metaphorically speaking, between Caltech and tech and culture. Why did you take that theme?>> Sure. So I've been involved in programming since I was an undergraduate in college. I studied computer science and always attending more and more conferences. hacker cons, security conferences, that sort of stuff. Very early on what attracted me to technology was not just the nitty gritty nuts and bolts of being able to solve a hard technical problem That was a lot of fun, but also the impact that it could have. So even as I went on a very academic track, I continued to make open source contributions. Really seeking that kind of cultural impact. And it wasn't something that I was real vocal about. Talking about. More talking about the technology side of things than the politics side of things. But in the past few years, I think with the rise of fake news, with the rise of various sorts of societal problems that we're seeing as a consequence of technology, I decided I was going to try to speak more to that end of things. So that we can focus on that as a technology community on what are we going to do with this enormous power that we have.>> And looking at that, a couple of direct questions for you, it was awesome talk. You get a lot in there. You were riffing some good stuff there with Jim as well. But you had made a comment that you originally wanted to be lawyer, you went to MIT, and you sort of got pulled in to the dark side>> That's right, yeah.>> In programming. As a former computer scientist myself, what got the bug take us through that moment. Was it you just started coding and said damn I love coding? What was the moment?>> Sure, so I was always talented in math and science. That was part of the reason why I was admitted to MIT and chose to go there. My late father was a lawyer. I didn't really have an example of a technologist in my life. So, to me, career wise I was going to be a lawyer, but I was interested in technology. What kind of lawyer is that? Patent attorney. So that was my career path. MIT, some sort of engineering, then a patent attorney. I got to MIT and realized I didn't have to be a attorney. I could just do the fun stuff. For some people that's the fun part. For me it ended up being when I took my first computer science class. Something that was fun, that I was good at, and that I really got addicted to kind of the feedback loop of you always have a problem you're trying to solve. It doesn't work, it doesn't work. Then you get it to work and then it's great for a minute and then there's a new problem to solve.>> That's a great story. I think it was very inspirational. A lot of folks of watching will be inspired by that. The other thing that inspired me in the key note was your comment about code and culture.>> [Christine] Yeah.>> I love this notion that code is now at a point where open source is a global phenomenon. You mentioned Earth and space.>> [Christine] Yeah.>> You know and all this sort of space is now Linux based now. But coding can shape culture. Explain what you mean by that, because I think it's one of those things that people might not see happening right now, but it is happening. You starting to see the more inclusionary roles and the communities are changing. Code is not just a tech thing. Explain what you mean by code-shaping culture.>> Well we can already that in terms of changing corporate culture. So, for example, 10 or 15, 20 years ago it might be inconceivable to make contributions that might benefit your corporate competitor. And we all have corporate competitors whether that's a nation, the US having competitors. Whether that's your local sports rivalry. We all have competitors, but open source has really shown that you're relying on things that you as a group, no matter what entity you are, you can't do as much as you can if you share your contributions and benefit from people around the globe. So that's one big way I've seen corporate culture in just every day culture change that people have recognized. Whether it's science, or corporate success, you can't do it alone. There's no lone genius. You really have to do it as a community.>> As a collective too you mentioned some of the ruling class and you kind of referring to not ruling class and open source, but also politics. In that gerrymandering was a word you used. We don't hear that often at conferences, but the idea of having more people exposed creates more data. Talk about what you mean by that because this is interesting. This truly is a democratization opportunity.>> [Christine] Absolutely.>> If not handled properly could go away.>> Yeah, I think am a little, I don't know if there's any Game of Thrones fans out there, but you know at some point this season and previous seasons you know Daenerys Targaryen is there and they're like well if you do this you're going to be the same evil person just new face. I think there's a risk of that in the open source community that if it ends up just being a few people it's the same oligarchy. The same sort of corruption just a different face to it. I don't think open source will go that way just based on the people that I've met in the community. It is something that we actively have to guard against and make sure that that we have as many people contributing to open source so that it's not just a few people who are capable of changing the world and have the power to decide whether it's going to be A or B, but as many people as possible.>> Christine, the kind of monetization of open source is always an interesting topic at these kind of shows. You had an interesting piece talking about young people contributing. You know contributing to open source. It's not just oh yeah do it for free and expect them to do it. Same thing in academia a lot of times. Like oh hey, you're going to do that research and participate and write papers and you know money is got to come somewhere to help fund this. How does kind of the money fit into this whole discussion of open source?>> So I think that's been one of the big successes of open source and we heard that from Jim as well today. It isn't you know some sort of unattainable in terms of achieving value for society. When you do something of value, money is a reward for that. The only question is how to distribute that award effectively to the community. What I see sometimes in the community is there's this myth of everyone in open source getting involved for just the fun of it and there's a huge amount of that. I have done a bunch of contributions for free on the side, but I've always in the end gotten some sort monetary reward for that down the line. And someone talked today about that makes you more employable, et cetera. That has left me with the time and freedom to continue that development. I think it's a risk that as a young person who is going into debt for college to not realize that that monetary reward will come or have it be so out of sync with their current life situation that they're unable to get the time to develop the skills. So, I don't think that money is a primary motivating factor for most people in the community, but certainly as Linus said today as well. When you don't have to worry about money that's when you do the really cool nitty-gritty things that might be a risk that then grow to be that next big project.>> It's an interesting comment you made about the US how they couldn't do potentially Linux if it wasn't in the US. It opens up your eyes and you say hmm we got to do better.>> Yeah.>> And so that brings up the whole notion of the radical comment of open source has always been kind of radical and then you know when I was growing up it was a tier two alternative to the big guys. Now it's tier one. I think the stakes are higher and the thing I'd like you to get your comment or reaction to is how does the community take it to the next level when it's bigger than the United States. You have China saying no more ICOs, no more virtual currencies. That's a potential issue there's a data point of many other things that can be on the global scale. Security, the Equifax hack, identity theft, truth in communities is now an issue, and there's more projects more than ever. So I made a comment on Twitter. Whose shoulders do we stand on in the expression of standing on the shoulders before you.>> [Christine] Yeah, you're standing on a sea.>> So it's a discovery challenge of what do we do and how do we get to the truth. What's your thoughts on that?>> That is a large question. I don't know if I can answer it in the short amount of time. So to break it down a little bit. One of the issues is that we're in this global society and we have different portions trying to regulate what's next in technology. For example, China with the ICOs, et cetera. One of the phrases I used in my talk was that the math was on the people's side and I think it is the case still with a lot of the technologies that are distributed. It's very hard for one particular government, or nation state, to say hey we're going to put this back in the box. It's Pandora's box. It's out in the open. So that's a challenge as well for China and other people, the US. If you have some harmful scenario, how to actually regulate that. I don't know how that's going to work out moving forward. I think it is the case in our community how to go to the next level, which is another point that you brought up. One thing that Linus also brought up today, is one of the reasons why it's great to collaborate with corporations is that often they put kind of the finishing touches on a product to really make it to the level that people can engage with it easily. That kind of on ramping to new technology is very easy and that's because of corporations is very incentivized monetarily to do that, whereas the open source community isn't necessarily incentivized to do that. Moreover, a lot of that work that final 1% of a project for the polish is so much more difficult. It's not the fun technical element. So a lot of the open source contributors, myself included, aren't necessarily very excited about that. However, what we saw in Signal, which is a product that it is a non-profit it is something that isn't necessarily for corporate gain, but that final polish and making it very usable did mean that a lot more people are using the product. So in terms of we as a community I think we have to figure out how keeping our radical governance structure, how to get more and more projects to have that final polish. And that'll really take the whole community.>> Let them benefit from it in a way that they're comfortable with now it's not a proprietary lock and it's more of only 10% of most of the applications are uniquely differentiated with open source. Question kind of philosophic thought experiment, or just philosophical question, I'll say astronomy and astrophysics is an interesting background. You've got a world of connected devices, the IoT, Internet of Things, includes people. So, you know I'm sitting there looking at the stars, oh that's the Apache Project, lots of stars in that one. You have these constellations of communities, if you will out there to kind of use the metaphor. And then you got astrophysics, the Milky Way, a lot of gravity around me. You almost take a metaphor talks to how communities work. So let's get your thoughts. How does astrophysics and astronomy relate to some of the dynamics in how self-governing things work?>> I'd love to see that visualization by the way, of the Apache Project and the Milky Way,>> [John] Which one's the Big Dipper?>> That sounds gorgeous, you guys should definitely pursue that.>> John you're going to find something at Caltech, you know our next fellowship.>> Argued who always did the Big Dipper or not, but you know.>> I think some of the challenges are similar in the sciences in that people initially get into it because it's something they're curious about. It's something they love and that's an innate human instinct. People have always gazed up at the stars. People have always wondered how things work. How your computer works? You know let me figure that out. That said, ultimately, they need to eat and feed their families and that sort of stuff. And we often see in the astrophysics community incredibly talented people at some stage in their career leaving for some sort of corporate job. And retaining talent is difficult because a lot of people are forced to move around the globe, to different centers in academia, and that lifestyle can be difficult. The pay often isn't as rewarding as it could be. So to make some sort of parallel between that community and the open source community, retaining talent in open source, if you want people to not necessarily work in open source under Microsoft, under a certain corporation only, but to kind of work more generally. That is something that ultimately, we have to distribute the rewards from that to the community.>> It's kind of interesting. The way I always thought the role of the corporation and open source was always trying to change the game. You know, you mentioned gerrymandering. The old model was we got to influence a slow that down so that we can control it.>> So John we've had people around the globe and even that have made it to space on theCUBE before. I don't know that we've ever had anybody that's been to the South Pole before on theCUBE. So Christine, maybe tell us a little about how's technology you know working in the South Pole and what can you tell our audience about it?>> Sure. So I spent 10 and half months at the South Pole. Not just Antarctica, but literally the middle of the continent, the geographic South Pole. There the US has a research base that houses up to about 200 people during the austral summer months when it's warm that is maybe minus 20 degrees or so. During the cold winter months, it gets completely dark and planes have a very difficult time coming in and out so they close off the station to a skeleton crew to keep the science experiments down there running. There are several astrophysical experiments, several telescopes, as well as many research projects, and that skeleton crew was what I was a part of. 46 people and I was tasked with running the telescope down there and looking at some of the echoes of the Big Bang. And I was basically a telescope doctor. So I was on call much like a sys-admin might be. I was responsible for the kind of IT support for the telescope, but also just physical, something physically broke, kind of replacing that. And that meant I could be woken up in the middle of night because of some kind of package update issue or anything like that and I'd have to hike out in minus a 100 degrees to fix this, sometimes. Oftentimes, there was IT support on the station so we did have internet running to the telescope which was about a kilometer away. It took me anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes to walk out there. So if it didn't require on-site support sometimes I could do the work in my pajamas to kind of fix that. So it was a kind of traditional computer support role in a very untraditional environment.>> That's an IoT device isn't it.>> Yeah.>> Stu and I are always interested in the younger generation as we both have kids who are growing up in this new digital culture. What's your feeling in terms of the younger generation that are coming up because people going to school now, digital natives, courseware, online isn't always the answer, people learn differently. Your thoughts on onboarding the younger generation and for the inclusion piece which is super important whether it's women in tech and/or just people just getting more people into computer science. What are some of things that you see happening that excite you and what are some of the things that get you concerned?>> Yeah, so I had the chance I mentioned a little in my talk to teach 12 high school students how to computer program this summer. Some of them have been through computer programming classes at their colleges, or at their high schools, some not. What I saw when I was in high school was a huge variety of competence in the high school teachers that I had. Some were amazing and inspiring. Others because in the US you need a degree in education, but not necessarily a degree in the field that you're teaching. I think that there's a huge lack of people capable of teaching the next generation who are working at the high school level. It's not that there's a huge lack of people who are capable, kind of anyone at this conference could sit down and help a high schooler get motivated and self-study. So I think teacher training is something that I'm concerned about. In terms of things I'm very excited about, we're not quite there yet with the online courses, but the ability to acquire that knowledge online is very, very exciting. In addition, I think we're waking up as a society to the fact that four year college isn't necessarily the best preparation for every single field. For some fields it's very useful. For other fields, particularly engineering, maybe even computer science engineering, apprenticeships or practical experience could be as valuable if not more valuable for less expense. So I'm excited about new initiatives, these coding bootcamps. I think there's a difficulty in regulation in that you don't know for a new coding bootcamp. Is it just trying to get people's money? Is it really going to help their careers? So we're in a very frothy time there, but I think ultimately how it will shake out is it's going to help people enter technology jobs quicker.>> You know there's a percentage of jobs that aren't even invented yet. So there's AI. You see self-driving cars. These things are easy indicators that hey society's changing.>> Yeah. And it's also good to be helpful for a professionals like us, older professionals who want to keep up in this ever growing field and I don't necessarily want to go back for a second Ph.D, but I'll absolutely take an online course in something I didn't see in my undergrad.>> I mean you can get immersed in anything these days online. It's great, there's a lot of community behind it. Christine thanks so much for sharing. Congratulations on a great keynote. Thanks for spending some time with us.>> [Christine] Yeah, thanks for having me.>> It's theCUBE live coverage here in LA for Open Source Summit in North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, and we'll be right back with more live coverage after this short break.

(soft rock music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE. Covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hello everyone, welcome to a special Cube coverage here in Los Angeles, California for The Linux Foundation's Open Source Summit in North America. I'm John Furrier, co-host of The Cube. This week I'll be co-hosting with Jeff Frick and Stu Miniman who will be here shortly. He's out getting data from the keynotes and scouring the community for information. Two days of coverage of line up here. Open source is changing the world. More than ever, open source is continuing to accelerate. Over 23 million developers now actively programming with open source. Where the world economy is now based on open source, relies on open source, and where open source and code is changing culture. Jeff, had a great keynote from the Linux Foundation open source community, and really this is an accumulation of many, many years of coverage for us in the developer community. Kind of sitting above all the different communities like Stack Overflow, all the different source foundational communities: Open Stack Summit, Cooper Netty's, KubeCon, now CNCF, a variety of other shows, and obviously industry shows. And this is now, we're seeing where open source is becoming so mainstream on a global scale, we're seeing something unprecedented in the history of the computer industry and that is the role of open source in society. And I think the number one message we're seeing is that the Linux software has been around for 25 plus years. Linus Torvalds was on stage today kind of like reminiscing. He's been Time Man of the Year, he's won the Nobel Prize in Computer Science, the Millennial Award I think it's called. Essentially the top award. 17th most important person in this decade. Linux is now a main force. People are relying on open source, and then look no further than the Equifax pact that has changed 150 plus million people in terms of their, potentially identity fraud out there. It's from open source software, so you're starting to see the reliance of open source, where a sustainable ecosystem is continuing to grow, but security is a concern, and which projects to join. There's so much action, I called it open bar and open source. There's so much goodness flowing in from Google, IBM, you name the companies out there. People are being paid to learn and write code at this point in history. This is a historic moment for the open source community. As society starts to be molded by the shape of code in the keynote they call it a Do-Acracy. For doers and builders who are changing democracy on a global scale. This is the big theme and obviously a slew of announcements on a project basis: Certification for Cooper Netty's, new people joining, the CNCF and a variety of different projects. But certainly from our standpoint and theCUBE, we covered a lot of the game of this past eight years. Certainly the Cloud and big data, and the software ecosystem. Software-defined Data Center to software eating the world, Data Science eating the world. This is only going to continue with things like Blockchain, virtual reality. And as fake news and bought networks in the cloud continuing to change the notion of what the source is, not just source code, source of information. More than ever, the role of communities will play a front and center role in all of this. >> Yeah I think that's as big of a deal as the software piece, John, is the role of communities that open source creates. And it's a different way of thinking about things. It's a different way of trying to get more innovation. It's acknowledging that the smartest people aren't necessarily in your four walls. So it's really an attitude, but I want to get your take 'cause there's a couple models of stewardship in the open source world. We're here at Open Source Summit in L.A. Linux Foundation event. Linux Foundation is taking on more and more of the stewardship of many of these projects, kind of bringing it under one roof. We see another model where the stewardship is kind of driven by one particular company, right, that's trying to build a commercial business around an open source stack, but there's a couple companies that have become almost the defacto steward for a new and evolving open source space. How do you see the pros and the cons against those two models. Ya know it's great is you got a great steward, it's maybe not so great is the steward is not so terrific and you get a conflict between the steward of the technology and the actual open source project. >> Well, Jeff, and this is the fundamental question on everyone's mind here, as we continue to see the communities grow. And also the scale out of communities as well as the number of overall lines of code. So a couple of key things, one is: We call it the ruling class, that's the elephant in the room here at the show is, we see it in politics, identity politics shaping our national level and certainly on a global scale. China blocking all block chain, ICOs, and all virtual currencies as of today. You're starting to see the intersection of geopolitics with code. Where the notion of a democracy, or democratization, or do-acracy, as one of the speakers has called it. You can think of code, lines of code, as a vote. You write a line of code, that's a vote into an ecosystem. And we're starting to see these notion of distributed labor, distributed control changing the face of capitalism. Ya know, it's really happening, and the value that corporations are creating in this new model is a real dynamic. And really what's happening is the change from a ruling class, even in the software world. The success of open source has always been based upon self-governance. Self-governance implies a group collective that manages and approves things. That group collective, some would argue, has not been inclusive over the years. Certainly the role of women in tech has been an issue. And so what you have developing is the potential for a ruling class of what shapes the future culture. Certainly there's a no-brainer with women in tech that there should be more women in tech because half the people in the world are women. They're users of software. Software is going to be relied on by all aspects of our world. Not just in Earth but also in Space. So, the notion of ruling class is changing and the inclusion is a huge deal. Onboarding new people. Building on individual successes, and building it together as a group relies on inclusion. It relies on inlcusion of people, and requires inclusion of how the self-governance goes forward. And again, this is a major concept in this world as it evolves because like I said, open source is relied on, people are leaning on it at a tier one level. Software that's powering the telescope in the North Pole, in the Antarctic to Space stations all use Linux. And this is, again, what we're seeing. Getting technology in the hands so people can use code to shape culture. That is ultimately a big thing, we're at a tipping point right now, were at an inflection point, whatever you want to call it. Open source is continuing to grow, and that culture-shaping notion of code equals culture, is really what it's all about, and the role of community is more important than ever. And inclusion is the number one factor in my opinion. >> The other interesting thing to get your take, John, is Android. So Linux has been around for a long time, everybody knows about Linux, and there was lots of flavors and it all kind of aggregated. Android is really growing as a significant factor, and I think it was announced here that Samsung has now joined the project. And there's a really interesting little gizmo now that you can take your Samsung phone, stick it in a docking station, and have it power a big giant screen and a keyboard. And so, ya know, as Android has developed as the power in the handheld devices, it's closer and closer, it's not surpassing what we have in these things. It's another big kind of shot in the arm towards the open source ecosystem that really wasn't as significant as it is today. >> Well I mean the Android Operating System is again, just an operating system in the minds of the tech world. Obviously consumers use it, device, huge market share iOS Android and even other operating systems. Who knows, maybe it'll be the year of Linux on the phone, at some point. But you're starting to see software powering devices. This is the internet of things phenomenon. This is where you start to see trends that build out of that notion, like Blockchain, like A.I. are going to start impacting lives. And that's one thing that Linus Torvalds was saying on stage was, the most rewarding thing in his career with all the accolades aside; the fact that he's had an impact on people's lives has been the number one thing that motivates him. That's what motivates most people. So I would say that the Android significance is one of pure numbers. More market share, more penetration for the user experience. And the user experience is a cultural issue. Back to culture equals code. And, inclusively powering everyone to get involved and be part of it, either as a user or a participant in the community or a coder, really is about deciding the future, and if people do not get involved and are not included, then the ruling class will decide what's best for the culture, and that is not the theme here today. The theme here in open source for the next level is letting the code and the technologists in an open collaborative self-governing way be in communities, be inclusive and shape the culture, letting the code shape the culture. And Android, again, is another straw in the camel's back that allows for more penetration and more influence. More relevance, and continued relevance of technology. Providers, coders, communities and certainly individuals. And again, collective intelligence is a group phenomenon. That is a community powered theme. That is what's going on here and again, this is to me, is very radical disruption to the global society. >> Get your take John, 'cause then you get kind of forking and things kind of move and groove, it's kind of like a river, finds another path, right. And you had the container and docker really drove a lot of activation on the container side. Google comes out strong with Cooper Netty's, another open source project that we just heard at the VMworld a week ago. Pivotal get on stage with Michael Dell and Pat Gelsinger talking about kind of a new derivation that they're kicking out that's not Cooper Netty's. I forget what it's called, a different, cube-something >> John: PKS. >> PKS. >> John: A little container service. >> Continues to evolve and kind of fork. So what's your take on kind of how these things continue to morph. >> Well that's a good point, I mean you're talking about vendors in industry. Industry is a term that they use here it's kind of a polite term for saying companies with a vol for capitalism. And capitalism, one of the factors involved in what's going on here: corporate value is not a bad thing. But capitalism driving the culture is not what it wants. Distributed labor, distributed control, changing the face and capitalism is about the role of open source. So there's a role for industry and corporations. The issue is that as vendors, in the old model, which is put stuff out there, control the standards bodies and influence the industry through their proprietary mechanisms. That's changed and they don't have the proprietary nature but they can try to use their muscle and money. That's not happening anymore, and I think forking, as you mentioned, the ability to take a piece of code and build on it, whether it's a framework or libraries out there. And writing custom code is what Jim Zemlin was talking about with us is the code sandwich. That 90 percent of the software out there is open source and only ten percent is highly differentiated. That is the programming model. So, to me I think forking is a wonderful democracy dynamic in open source. If you don't like it, you can fork it. And if it doesn't make it, then the Do-Acracy voted with their code. So, this a term you call voting with your code. We can use the term in marketing called people vote with their wallet, vote with their feet. In communities, in open source they vote with their code. So to me, forking if a good thing that provides great opportunity for innovation. The issue of vendors pushing stuff out there is what I call the calling the bullshit factor. Communities that are vibrant and sustainable they can call bullshit on this right away. So, companies can't operate on the old model, they have to ingratiate in, they have to make real contribution, and they have to be community citizens. Otherwise you're going to get called out for pushing their vendorware. And that is interesting, and I'm not saying that they are doing that but Pivotal is a great example. Ya know, Pivotal put out a pretty good service, makes Cooper Netty's manageable, Google Cloud engines tied directly to it. So any updates coming from the Google Cloud engine gets updated into Pivotal, that's the value to users. If it sucks, if it doesn't work well, people won't use it. So, voting with your code, voting with your feet, is what people will do. So there's now a new level of triangulation or a heat shield if you will from vendor dominance, throwing their muscle around and even Microsoft is here with Linux. It's a huge testament to the success of Linux, and that's really what it's all about. >> Yeah, Microsoft is here, Intel is here. A lot of big companies are here and a lot of, in the early days, people had issues with the big companies coming in. But, clearly they're a huge part of the ecosystem, they write big checks, they help fund nice events like this. So the last question for you John, before we get into it: Two days of wall to wall coverage, what are you looking for? What are some of the questions that you've got on top of your mind that we'd hope to get some answers over the next couple weeks, or couple days, excuse me. >> Well I saw a great quote up on stage, was called May The Source Be With You. And, it was kind of a Star Wars reference: May the force be with, may the source code be with you, if you will. I'm looking for things that changed people's lives, 'cause the theme in open source now is the reliance of code in all aspects of global life here on earth and in space now as we see it. That the quality of life for society depends on open source. And again, 90 percent of most great software is written in open source, ten percent is differentiated and unique. That's the model they call the code sandwich. It's easy to code, it's easier to get involved. There's more communities that are robust and vibrant. If it impacts the quality of life, so that's one thing. The second thing I'm looking for is, we're looking at some of these new future trends and I've been really thinking a lot about lately as you know in theCUBE, is the role of Blockchains and these really disrupted technologies. We've started to see the power of the user in communities where there's technologies empowering the individual at the same time creating a group dynamic where the groups can build. So, individual success can be part of something that contributes to a group that can build on top of it. That's an open source flywheel that works great. I'm looking for Blockchain, I'm looking for those new technologies that are going to be in that vein. And of course, the outcome is: Does it impact lives, does it make the quality of life better? >> Alright. Well you heard it there, we'll be here for two days of wall to wall coverage. We're at the Open Source Summit North America in L.A. It's pretty funny, right next to Staples Center. John, I don't think we've ever been right downtown L.A. You're watching theCUBE, we'll be back with our next guest after this short break, thanks for watching. (light electronic music)