(bright music) >> Hello everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Got some great coverage here talking about software supply chain and sustainability in the cloud. We've got a great conversation. Gunnar Hellekson, vice president and general manager at Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Business Unit of Red Hat. Thanks for coming on. And Adnan Ijaz, director of product management of commercial software services, AWS. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me today. >> It's a pleasure. (Adnan speaks indistinctly) >> You know, the hottest topic coming out of Cloud Native developer communities is slide chain software sustainability. This is a huge issue. As open source continues to power away and fund and grow this next generation modern development environment, you know, supply chain, you know, sustainability is a huge discussion because you got to check things out, what's in the code. Okay, open source is great, but now we got to commercialize it. This is the topic, Gunnar, let's get in with you. What are you seeing here and what's some of the things that you're seeing around the sustainability piece of it? Because, you know, containers, Kubernetes, we're seeing that that run time really dominate this new abstraction layer, cloud scale. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, so I, it's interesting that the, you know, so Red Hat's been doing this for 20 years, right? Making open source safe to consume in the enterprise. And there was a time when in order to do that you needed to have a long term life cycle and you needed to be very good at remediating security vulnerabilities. And that was kind of, that was the bar that you had to climb over. Nowadays with the number of vulnerabilities coming through, what people are most worried about is, kind of, the providence of the software and making sure that it has been vetted and it's been safe, and that things that you get from your vendor should be more secure than things that you've just downloaded off of GitHub, for example. Right? And that's a place where Red Hat's very comfortable living, right? Because we've been doing it for 20 years. I think there's another aspect to this supply chain question as well, especially with the pandemic. You know, we've got these supply chains have been jammed up. The actual physical supply chains have been jammed up. And the two of these issues actually come together, right? Because as we go through the pandemic, we've got these digital transformation efforts, which are in large part, people creating software in order to manage better their physical supply chain problems. And so as part of that digital transformation, you have another supply chain problem, which is the software supply chain problem, right? And so these two things kind of merge on these as people are trying to improve the performance of transportation systems, logistics, et cetera. Ultimately, it all boils down to, both supply chain problems actually boil down to a software problem. It's very interesting. >> Well, that is interesting. I want to just follow up on that real quick if you don't mind. Because if you think about the convergence of the software and physical world, you know, that's, you know, IOT and also hybridcloud kind of plays into that at scale, this opens up more surface area for attacks, especially when you're under a lot of pressure. This is where, you know, you have a service area on the physical side and you have constraints there. And obviously the pandemic causes problems. But now you've got the software side. How are you guys handling that? Can you just share a little bit more of how you guys looking at that with Red Hat? What's the customer challenge? Obviously, you know, skills gaps is one, but, like, that's a convergence at the same time more security problems. >> Yeah, yeah, that's right. And certainly the volume of, if we just look at security vulnerabilities themselves, just the volume of security vulnerabilities has gone up considerably as more people begin using the software. And as the software becomes more important to, kind of, critical infrastructure. More eyeballs around it and so we're uncovering more problems, which is kind of, that's okay, that's how the world works. And so certainly the number of remediations required every year has gone up. But also the customer expectations, as I mentioned before, the customer expectations have changed, right? People want to be able to show to their auditors and to their regulators that no, in fact, I can show the providence of the software that I'm using. I didn't just download something random off the internet. I actually have like, you know, adults paying attention to how the software gets put together. And it's still, honestly, it's still very early days. I think as an industry, I think we're very good at managing, identifying remediating vulnerabilities in the aggregate. We're pretty good at that. I think things are less clear when we talk about, kind of, the management of that supply chain, proving the providence, and creating a resilient supply chain for software. We have lots of tools, but we don't really have lots of shared expectations. And so it's going to be interesting over the next few years, I think we're going to have more rules are going to come out. I see NIST has already published some of them. And as these new rules come out, the whole industry is going to have to kind of pull together and really rally around some of this shared understanding so we can all have shared expectations and we can all speak the same language when we're talking about this problem. >> That's awesome. Adnan, Amazon web service is obviously the largest cloud platform out there. You know, the pandemic, even post pandemic, some of these supply chain issues, whether it's physical or software, you're also an outlet for that. So if someone can't buy hardware or something physical, they can always get to the cloud. You guys have great network compute and whatnot and you got thousands of ISVs across the globe. How are you helping customers with this supply chain problem? Because whether it's, you know, I need to get in my networking gears and delay, I'm going to go to the cloud and get help there. Or whether it's knowing the workloads and what's going on inside them with respect to open source. 'Cause you've got open source, which is kind of an external forcing function. You've got AWS and you got, you know, physical compute stores, networking, et cetera. How are you guys helping customers with the supply chain challenge, which could be an opportunity? >> Yeah, thanks John. I think there are multiple layers to that. At the most basic level, we are helping customers by abstracting away all these data center constructs that they would have to worry about if they were running their own data centers. They would have to figure out how the networking gear, you talk about, you know, having the right compute, right physical hardware. So by moving to the cloud, at least they're delegating that problem to AWS and letting us manage and making sure that we have an instance available for them whenever they want it. And if they want to scale it, the capacity is there for them to use. Now then, so we kind of give them space to work on the second part of the problem, which is building their own supply chain solutions. And we work with all kinds of customers here at AWS from all different industry segments, automotive, retail, manufacturing. And you know, you see the complexity of the supply chain with all those moving pieces, like hundreds and thousands of moving pieces, it's very daunting. And then on the other hand, customers need more better services. So you need to move fast. So you need to build your agility in the supply chain itself. And that is where, you know, Red Hat and AWS come together. Where we can enable customers to build their supply chain solutions on platforms like Red Hat Enterprise Linux RHEL or Red Hat OpenShift on AWS, we call it ROSA. And the benefit there is that you can actually use the services that are relevant for the supply chain solutions like Amazon managed blockchain, you know, SageMaker. So you can actually build predictive analytics, you can improve forecasting, you can make sure that you have solutions that help you identify where you can cut costs. And so those are some of the ways we're helping customers, you know, figure out how they actually want to deal with the supply chain challenges that we're running into in today's world. >> Yeah, and you know, you mentioned sustainability outside of software sustainability, you know, as people move to the cloud, we've reported on SiliconANGLE here in theCUBE, that it's better to have the sustainability with the cloud because then the data centers aren't using all that energy too. So there's also all kinds of sustainability advantages. Gunnar, because this is kind of how your relationship with Amazon's expanded. You mentioned ROSA, which is Red Hat, you know, on OpenShift, on AWS. This is interesting because one of the biggest discussions is skills gap, but we were also talking about the fact that the humans are a huge part of the talent value. In other words, the humans still need to be involved. And having that relationship with managed services and Red Hat, this piece becomes one of those things that's not talked about much, which is the talent is increasing in value, the humans, and now you got managed services on the cloud. So we'll look at scale and human interaction. Can you share, you know, how you guys are working together on this piece? 'Cause this is interesting, 'cause this kind of brings up the relationship of that operator or developer. >> Yeah, yeah. So I think there's, so I think about this in a few dimensions. First is that it's difficult to find a customer who is not talking about automation at some level right now. And obviously you can automate the processes and the physical infrastructure that you already have, that's using tools like Ansible, right? But I think that combining it with the elasticity of a solution like AWS, so you combine the automation with kind of elastic and converting a lot of the capital expenses into operating expenses, that's a great way actually to save labor, right? So instead of like racking hard drives, you can have somebody do something a little more like, you know, more valuable work, right? And so, okay, but that gives you a platform. And then what do you do with that platform? You know, if you've got your systems automated and you've got this kind of elastic infrastructure underneath you, what you do on top of it is really interesting. So a great example of this is the collaboration that we had with running the RHEL workstation on AWS. So you might think, like, well why would anybody want to run a workstation on a cloud? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Unless you consider how complex it is to set up, if you have, the use case here is like industrial workstations, right? So it's animators, people doing computational fluid dynamics, things like this. So these are industries that are extremely data heavy. Workstations have very large hardware requirements, often with accelerated GPUs and things like this. That is an extremely expensive thing to install on-premise anywhere. And if the pandemic taught us anything, it's if you have a bunch of very expensive talent and they all have to work from home, it is very difficult to go provide them with, you know, several tens of thousands of dollars worth of workstation equipment. And so combine the RHEL workstation with the AWS infrastructure and now all that workstation computational infrastructure is available on demand and available right next to the considerable amount of data that they're analyzing or animating or working on. So it's a really interesting, it was actually, this is an idea that was actually born with the pandemic. >> Yeah. >> And it's kind of a combination of everything that we're talking about, right? It's the supply chain challenges of the customer, it's the lack of talent, making sure that people are being put to their best and highest use. And it's also having this kind of elastic, I think, OpEx heavy infrastructure as opposed to a CapEx heavy infrastructure. >> That's a great example. I think that illustrates to me what I love about cloud right now is that you can put stuff in the cloud and then flex what you need, when you need it, in the cloud rather than either ingress or egress of data. You just get more versatility around the workload needs, whether it's more compute or more storage or other high level services. This is kind of where this next gen cloud is going. This is where customers want to go once their workloads are up and running. How do you simplify all this and how do you guys look at this from a joint customer perspective? Because that example I think will be something that all companies will be working on, which is put it in the cloud and flex to whatever the workload needs and put it closer to the compute. I want to put it there. If I want to leverage more storage and networking, well, I'll do that too. It's not one thing, it's got to flex around. How are you guys simplifying this? >> Yeah, I think, so, I'll give my point of view and then I'm very curious to hear what Adnan has to say about it. But I think about it in a few dimensions, right? So there is a technically, like, any solution that Adnan's team and my team want to put together needs to be kind of technically coherent, right? Things need to work well together. But that's not even most of the job. Most of the job is actually ensuring an operational consistency and operational simplicity, so that everything is, the day-to-day operations of these things kind of work well together. And then also, all the way to things like support and even acquisition, right? Making sure that all the contracts work together, right? It's a really... So when Adnan and I think about places of working together, it's very rare that we're just looking at a technical collaboration. It's actually a holistic collaboration across support, acquisition, as well as all the engineering that we have to do. >> Adnan, your view on how you're simplifying it with Red Hat for your joint customers making collaborations? >> Yeah, Gunnar covered it well. I think the benefit here is that Red Hat has been the leading Linux distribution provider. So they have a lot of experience. AWS has been the leading cloud provider. So we have both our own points of view, our own learning from our respective set of customers. So the way we try to simplify and bring these things together is working closely. In fact, I sometimes joke internally that if you see Gunnar and my team talking to each other on a call, you cannot really tell who belongs to which team. Because we're always figuring out, okay, how do we simplify discount experience? How do we simplify programs? How do we simplify go to market? How do we simplify the product pieces? So it's really bringing our learning and share our perspective to the table and then really figure out how do we actually help customers make progress. ROSA that we talked about is a great example of that, you know, together we figured out, hey, there is a need for customers to have this capability in AWS and we went out and built it. So those are just some of the examples in how both teams are working together to simplify the experience, make it complete, make it more coherent. >> Great, that's awesome. Next question is really around how you help organizations with the sustainability piece, how to support them simplifying it. But first, before we get into that, what is the core problem around this sustainability discussion we're talking about here, supply chain sustainability, what is the core challenge? Can you both share your thoughts on what that problem is and what the solution looks like and then we can get into advice? >> Yeah. Well from my point of view, it's, I think, you know, one of the lessons of the last three years is every organization is kind of taking a careful look at how resilient it is, or I should say, every organization learned exactly how resilient it was, right? And that comes from both the physical challenges and the logistics challenges that everyone had, the talent challenges you mentioned earlier. And of course the software challenges, you know, as everyone kind of embarks on this digital transformation journey that we've all been talking about. And I think, so I really frame it as resilience, right? And resilience at bottom is really about ensuring that you have options and that you have choices. The more choices you have, the more options you have, the more resilient you and your organization is going to be. And so I know that's how I approach the market. I'm pretty sure that's how Adnan is approaching the market, is ensuring that we are providing as many options as possible to customers so that they can assemble the right pieces to create a solution that works for their particular set of challenges or their unique set of challenges and unique context. Adnan, does that sound about right to you? >> Yeah, I think you covered it well. I can speak to another aspect of sustainability, which is becoming increasingly top of mind for our customers. Like, how do they build products and services and solutions and whether it's supply chain or anything else which is sustainable, which is for the long term good of the planet. And I think that is where we have also been very intentional and focused in how we design our data center, how we actually build our cooling system so that those are energy efficient. You know, we are on track to power all our operations with renewable energy by 2025, which is five years ahead of our initial commitment. And perhaps the most obvious example of all of this is our work with ARM processors, Graviton3, where, you know, we are building our own chip to make sure that we are designing energy efficiency into the process. And you know, the ARM Graviton3 processor chips, they are about 60% more energy efficient compared to some of the CD6 comparable. So all those things that also we are working on in making sure that whatever our customers build on our platform is long term sustainable. So that's another dimension of how we are working that into our platform. >> That's awesome. This is a great conversation. You know, the supply chain is on both sides, physical and software. You're starting to see them come together in great conversations. And certainly moving workloads to the cloud and running them more efficiently will help on the sustainability side, in my opinion. Of course, you guys talked about that and we've covered it. But now you start getting into how to refactor, and this is a big conversation we've been having lately is as you not just lift and shift, but replatform it and refactor, customers are seeing great advantages on this. So I have to ask you guys, how are you helping customers and organizations support sustainability and simplify the complex environment that has a lot of potential integrations? Obviously API's help of course, but that's the kind of baseline. What's the advice that you give customers? 'Cause you know, it can look complex and it becomes complex, but there's an answer here. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I think, so whenever I get questions like this from customers, the first thing I guide them to is, we talked earlier about this notion of consistency and how important that is. One way to solve the problem is to create an entirely new operational model, an entirely new acquisition model, and an entirely new stack of technologies in order to be more sustainable. That is probably not in the cards for most folks. What they want to do is have their existing estate and they're trying to introduce sustainability into the work that they are already doing. They don't need to build another silo in order to create sustainability, right? And so there has to be some common threads, there has to be some common platforms across the existing estate and your more sustainable estate, right? And so things like Red Hat Enterprise Linux, which can provide this kind of common, not just a technical substrate, but a common operational substrate on which you can build these solutions. If you have a common platform on which you are building solutions, whether it's RHEL or whether it's OpenShift or any of our other platforms, that creates options for you underneath. So that in some cases maybe you need to run things on-premises, some things you need to run in the cloud, but you don't have to profoundly change how you work when you're moving from one place to another. >> Adnan, what's your thoughts on the simplification? >> Yeah, I mean, when you talk about replatforming and refactoring, it is a daunting undertaking, you know, especially in today's fast paced world. But the good news is you don't have to do it by yourself. Customers don't have to do it on their own. You know, together AWS and Red Hat, we have our rich partner ecosystem, you know, AWS has over 100,000 partners that can help you take that journey, the transformation journey. And within AWS and working with our partners like Red Hat, we make sure that we have- In my mind, there are really three big pillars that you have to have to make sure that customers can successfully re-platform, refactor their applications to the modern cloud architecture. You need to have the rich set of services and tools that meet their different scenarios, different use cases. Because no one size fits all. You have to have the right programs because sometimes customers need those incentives, they need those, you know, that help in the first step. And last but not least, they need training. So all of that, we try to cover that as we work with our customers, work with our partners. And that is where, you know, together we try to help customers take that step, which is a challenging step to take. >> Yeah, you know, it's great to talk to you guys, both leaders in your field. Obviously Red Hats, I remember the days back when I was provisioning and loading OSs on hardware with CDs, if you remember those days, Gunnar. But now with the high level services, if you look at this year's reinvent, and this is kind of my final question for the segment is, that we'll get your reaction to, last year we talked about higher level service. I sat down with Adam Saleski, we talked about that. If you look at what's happened this year, you're starting to see people talk about their environment as their cloud. So Amazon has the gift of the CapEx, all that investment and people can operate on top of it. They're calling that environment their cloud. Okay? For the first time we're seeing this new dynamic where it's like they have a cloud, but Amazon's the CapEx, they're operating. So, you're starting to see the operational visibility, Gunnar, around how to operate this environment. And it's not hybrid, this, that, it's just, it's cloud. This is kind of an inflection point. Do you guys agree with that or have a reaction to that statement? Because I think this is, kind of, the next gen supercloud-like capability. We're going, we're building the cloud. It's now an environment. It's not talking about private cloud, this cloud, it's all cloud. What's your reaction? >> Yeah, I think, well, I think it's very natural. I mean, we use words like hybridcloud, multicloud, I guess supercloud is what the kids are saying now, right? It's all describing the same phenomena, right? Which is being able to take advantage of lots of different infrastructure options, but still having something that creates some commonality among them so that you can manage them effectively, right? So that you can have, kind of, uniform compliance across your estate. So that you can have, kind of, you can make the best use of your talent across the estate. I mean this is, it's a very natural thing. >> John: They're calling it cloud, the estate is the cloud. >> Yeah. So yeah, so fine, if it means that we no longer have to argue about what's multicloud and what's hybridcloud, I think that's great. Let's just call it cloud. >> Adnan, what's your reaction, 'cause this is kind of the next gen benefits of higher level services combined with amazing, you know, compute and resource at the infrastructure level. What's your view on that? >> Yeah, I think the construct of a unified environment makes sense for customers who have all these use cases which require, like for instance, if you are doing some edge computing and you're running WS outpost or you know, wavelength and these things. So, and it is fair for customer to think that, hey, this is one environment, same set of tooling that they want to build that works across all their different environments. That is why we work with partners like Red Hat so that customers who are running Red Hat Enterprise Linux on-premises and who are running in AWS get the same level of support, get the same level of security features, all of that. So from that sense, it actually makes sense for us to build these capabilities in a way that customers don't have to worry about, okay, now I'm actually in the AWS data center versus I'm running outpost on-premises. It is all one. They just use the same set of CLI, command line APIs and all of that. So in that sense it actually helps customers have that unification so that consistency of experience helps their workforce and be more productive versus figuring out, okay, what do I do, which tool I use where? >> Adnan, you just nailed it. This is about supply chain sustainability, moving the workloads into a cloud environment. You mentioned wavelength, this conversation's going to continue. We haven't even talked about the edge yet. This is something that's going to be all about operating these workloads at scale and all with the cloud services. So thanks for sharing that and we'll pick up that edge piece later. But for re:Invent right now, this is really the key conversation. How to make the sustained supply chain work in a complex environment, making it simpler. And so thanks you for sharing your insights here on theCUBE. >> Thanks, thanks for having us. >> Okay, this is theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

>>Hello everyone. Welcome to the Cube's coverage of AWS Reinvent 22. I'm John Ferer, host of the Cube. Got some great coverage here talking about software supply chain and sustainability in the cloud. We've got a great conversation. Gunner Helickson, Vice President and general manager at Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Business Unit of Red Hat. Thanks for coming on. And Edon Eja Director, Product Management of commercial software services aws. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me today. >>Oh, it's a pleasure. >>You know, the hottest topic coming out of Cloudnative developer communities is slide chain software sustainability. This is a huge issue. As open source continues to power away and fund and grow this next generation modern development environment, you know, supply chain, you know, sustainability is a huge discussion because you gotta check things out where, what's in the code. Okay, open source is great, but now we gotta commercialize it. This is the topic, Gunner, let's get in, get with you. What, what are you seeing here and what's some of the things that you're seeing around the sustainability piece of it? Because, you know, containers, Kubernetes, we're seeing that that run time really dominate this new abstraction layer, cloud scale. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, so I, it's interesting that the, you know, so Red Hat's been doing this for 20 years, right? Making open source safe to consume in the enterprise. And there was a time when in order to do that you needed to have a, a long term life cycle and you needed to be very good at remediating security vulnerabilities. And that was kind of, that was the bar that you had that you had to climb over. Nowadays with the number of vulnerabilities coming through, what people are most worried about is, is kind of the providence of the software and making sure that it has been vetted and it's been safe, and that that things that you get from your vendor should be more secure than things that you've just downloaded off of GitHub, for example. Right? And that's, that's a, that's a place where Red Hat's very comfortable living, right? >>Because we've been doing it for, for 20 years. I think there, there's another, there's another aspect to this, to this supply chain question as well, especially with the pandemic. You know, we've got these, these supply chains have been jammed up. The actual physical supply chains have been jammed up. And, and the two of these issues actually come together, right? Because as we've been go, as we go through the pandemic, we've had these digital transformation efforts, which are in large part people creating software in order to manage better their physical supply chain problems. And so as part of that digital transformation, you have another supply chain problem, which is the software supply chain problem, right? And so these two things kind of merge on these as people are trying to improve the performance of transportation systems, logistics, et cetera. Ultimately it all boils down to it all. Both supply chain problems actually boil down to a software problem. It's very >>Interesting that, Well, that is interesting. I wanna just follow up on that real quick if you don't mind. Because if you think about the convergence of the software and physical world, you know, that's, you know, IOT and also hybrid cloud kind of plays into that at scale, this opens up more surface area for attacks, especially when you're under a lot of pressure. This is where, you know, you can, you have a service area in the physical side and you have constraints there. And obviously the pandemic causes problems, but now you've got the software side. Can you, how are you guys handling that? Can you just share a little bit more of how you guys are looking at that with Red Hat? What's, what's the customer challenge? Obviously, you know, skills gaps is one, but like that's a convergence at the same time. More security problems. >>Yeah, yeah, that's right. And certainly the volume of, if we just look at security vulnerabilities themselves, just the volume of security vulnerabilities has gone up considerably as more people begin using the software. And as the software becomes more important to kind of critical infrastructure, more eyeballs are on it. And so we're uncovering more problems, which is kind of, that's, that's okay. That's how the world works. And so certainly the, the number of remediations required every year has gone up. But also the customer expectations, as I've mentioned before, the customer expectations have changed, right? People want to be able to show to their auditors and to their regulators that no, we, we, in fact, I can show the providence of the software that I'm using. I didn't just download something random off the internet. I actually have, like you, you know, adults paying attention to the, how the software gets put together. >>And it's still, honestly, it's still very early days. We can, I think the, in as an industry, I think we're very good at managing, identifying remediating vulnerabilities in the aggregate. We're pretty good at that. I think things are less clear when we talk about kind of the management of that supply chain, proving the provenance, proving the, and creating a resilient supply chain for software. We have lots of tools, but we don't really have lots of shared expectations. Yeah. And so it's gonna be interesting over the next few years, I think we're gonna have more rules are gonna come out. I see NIST has already, has already published some of them. And as these new rules come out, the whole industry is gonna have to kind of pull together and, and really and really rally around some of this shared understanding so we can all have shared expectations and we can all speak the same language when we're talking about this >>Problem. That's awesome. A and Amazon web service is obviously the largest cloud platform out there, you know, the pandemic, even post pandemic, some of these supply chain issues, whether it's physical or software, you're also an outlet for that. So if someone can't buy hardware or, or something physical, they can always get the cloud. You guys have great network compute and whatnot and you got thousands of ISVs across the globe. How are you helping customers with this supply chain problem? Because whether it's, you know, I need to get in my networking gears delayed, I'm gonna go to the cloud and get help there. Or whether it's knowing the workloads and, and what's going on inside them with respect open source. Cause you've got open source, which is kind of an external forcing function. You got AWS and you got, you know, physical compute stores, networking, et cetera. How are you guys helping customers with the supply chain challenge, which could be an opportunity? >>Yeah, thanks John. I think there, there are multiple layers to that. At, at the most basic level we are helping customers buy abstracting away all these data central constructs that they would have to worry about if they were running their own data centers. They would have to figure out how the networking gear, you talk about, you know, having the right compute, right physical hardware. So by moving to the cloud, at least they're delegating that problem to AWS and letting us manage and making sure that we have an instance available for them whenever they want it. And if they wanna scale it, the, the, the capacity is there for them to use now then that, so we kind of give them space to work on the second part of the problem, which is building their own supply chain solutions. And we work with all kinds of customers here at AWS from all different industry segments, automotive, retail, manufacturing. >>And you know, you see that the complexity of the supply chain with all those moving pieces, like hundreds and thousands of moving pieces, it's very daunting. So cus and then on the other hand, customers need more better services. So you need to move fast. So you need to build, build your agility in the supply chain itself. And that is where, you know, Red Hat and AWS come together where we can build, we can enable customers to build their supply chain solutions on platform like Red Hat Enterprise, Linux Rail or Red Hat OpenShift on, on aws. We call it Rosa. And the benefit there is that you can actually use the services that we, that are relevant for the supply chain solutions like Amazon managed blockchain, you know, SageMaker. So you can actually build predictive and s you can improve forecasting, you can make sure that you have solutions that help you identify where you can cut costs. And so those are some of the ways we are helping customers, you know, figure out how they actually wanna deal with the supply chain challenges that we're running into in today's world. >>Yeah, and you know, you mentioned sustainability outside of software su sustainability, you know, as people move to the cloud, we've reported on silicon angle here in the cube that it's better to have the sustainability with the cloud because then the data centers aren't using all that energy too. So there's also all kinds of sustainability advantages, Gunner, because this is, this is kind of how your relationship with Amazon's expanded. You mentioned Rosa, which is Red Hat on, you know, on OpenShift, on aws. This is interesting because one of the biggest discussions is skills gap, but we were also talking about the fact that the humans are huge part of the talent value. In other words, the, the humans still need to be involved and having that relationship with managed services and Red Hat, this piece becomes one of those things that's not talked about much, which is the talent is increasing in value the humans, and now you got managed services on the cloud, has got scale and human interactions. Can you share, you know, how you guys are working together on this piece? Cuz this is interesting cuz this kind of brings up the relationship of that operator or developer. >>Yeah, Yeah. So I think there's, so I think about this in a few dimensions. First is that the kind of the, I it's difficult to find a customer who is not talking about automation at some level right now. And obviously you can automate the processes and, and the physical infrastructure that you already have that's using tools like Ansible, right? But I think that the, combining it with the, the elasticity of a solution like aws, so you combine the automation with kind of elastic and, and converting a lot of the capital expenses into operating expenses, that's a great way actually to save labor, right? So instead of like racking hard drives, you can have somebody who's somebody do something a little more like, you know, more valuable work, right? And so, so okay, but that gives you a platform and then what do you do with that platform? >>And if you've got your systems automated and you've got this kind of elastic infrastructure underneath you, what you do on top of it is really interesting. So a great example of this is the collaboration that, that we had with running the rel workstation on aws. So you might think like, well why would anybody wanna run a workstation on, on a cloud? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless you consider how complex it is to set up, if you have the, the use case here is like industrial workstations, right? So it's animators, people doing computational fluid dynamics, things like this. So these are industries that are extremely data heavy. They have workstations have very large hardware requirements, often with accelerated GPUs and things like this. That is an extremely expensive thing to install on premise anywhere. And if the pandemic taught us anything, it's, if you have a bunch of very expensive talent and they all have to work from a home, it is very difficult to go provide them with, you know, several tens of thousands of dollars worth of worth of worth of workstation equipment. >>And so combine the rail workstation with the AWS infrastructure and now all that workstation computational infrastructure is available on demand and on and available right next to the considerable amount of data that they're analyzing or animating or, or, or working on. So it's a really interesting, it's, it was actually, this is an idea that I was actually born with the pandemic. Yeah. And, and it's kind of a combination of everything that we're talking about, right? It's the supply chain challenges of the customer, It's the lack of lack of talent, making sure that people are being put their best and highest use. And it's also having this kind of elastic, I think, opex heavy infrastructure as opposed to a CapEx heavy infrastructure. >>That's a great example. I think that's illustrates to me what I love about cloud right now is that you can put stuff in, in the cloud and then flex what you need when you need it at in the cloud rather than either ingress or egress data. You, you just more, you get more versatility around the workload needs, whether it's more compute or more storage or other high level services. This is kind of where this NextGen cloud is going. This is where, where, where customers want to go once their workloads are up and running. How do you simplify all this and how do you guys look at this from a joint customer perspective? Because that example I think will be something that all companies will be working on, which is put it in the cloud and flex to the, whatever the workload needs and put it closer to the work compute. I wanna put it there. If I wanna leverage more storage and networking, Well, I'll do that too. It's not one thing. It's gotta flex around what's, how are you guys simplifying this? >>Yeah, I think so for, I'll, I'll just give my point of view and then I'm, I'm very curious to hear what a not has to say about it, but the, I think and think about it in a few dimensions, right? So there's, there is a, technically like any solution that aan a nun's team and my team wanna put together needs to be kind of technically coherent, right? The things need to work well together, but that's not the, that's not even most of the job. Most of the job is actually the ensuring and operational consistency and operational simplicity so that everything is the day-to-day operations of these things kind of work well together. And then also all the way to things like support and even acquisition, right? Making sure that all the contracts work together, right? It's a really in what, So when Aon and I think about places of working together, it's very rare that we're just looking at a technical collaboration. It's actually a holistic collaboration across support acquisition as well as all the engineering that we have to do. >>And on your, your view on how you're simplifying it with Red Hat for your joint customers making Collabo >>Yeah. Gun, Yeah. Gunner covered it. Well I think the, the benefit here is that Red Hat has been the leading Linux distribution provider. So they have a lot of experience. AWS has been the leading cloud provider. So we have both our own point of views, our own learning from our respective set of customers. So the way we try to simplify and bring these things together is working closely. In fact, I sometimes joke internally that if you see Ghana and my team talking to each other on a call, you cannot really tell who who belongs to which team. Because we're always figuring out, okay, how do we simplify discount experience? How do we simplify programs? How do we simplify go to market? How do we simplify the product pieces? So it's really bringing our, our learning and share our perspective to the table and then really figure out how do we actually help customers make progress. Rosa that we talked about is a great example of that, you know, you know, we, together we figured out, hey, there is a need for customers to have this capability in AWS and we went out and built it. So those are just some of the examples in how both teams are working together to simplify the experience, make it complete, make it more coherent. >>Great. That's awesome. That next question is really around how you help organizations with the sustainability piece, how to support them, simplifying it. But first, before we get into that, what is the core problem around this sustainability discussion we're talking about here, supply chain sustainability, What is the core challenge? Can you both share your thoughts on what that problem is and what the solution looks like and then we can get into advice? >>Yeah. Well from my point of view, it's, I think, you know, one of the lessons of the last three years is every organization is kind of taking a careful look at how resilient it is. Or ever I should say, every organization learned exactly how resilient it was, right? And that comes from both the, the physical challenges and the logistics challenges that everyone had. The talent challenges you mentioned earlier. And of course the, the software challenges, you know, as everyone kind of embarks on this, this digital transformation journey that, that we've all been talking about. And I think, so I really frame it as, as resilience, right? And and resilience is at bottom is really about ensuring that you have options and that you have choices. The more choices you have, the more options you have, the more resilient you, you and your organization is going to be. And so I know that that's how, that's how I approach the market. I'm pretty sure that's exact, that's how AON is, has approaching the market, is ensuring that we are providing as many options as possible to customers so that they can assemble the right, assemble the right pieces to create a, a solution that works for their particular set of challenges or their unique set of challenges and and unique context. Aon, is that, does that sound about right to you? Yeah, >>I think you covered it well. I, I can speak to another aspect of sustainability, which is becoming increasingly top of mind for our customer is like how do they build products and services and solutions and whether it's supply chain or anything else which is sustainable, which is for the long term good of the, the planet. And I think that is where we have been also being very intentional and focused in how we design our data center. How we actually build our cooling system so that we, those are energy efficient. You know, we, we are on track to power all our operations with renewable energy by 2025, which is five years ahead of our initial commitment. And perhaps the most obvious example of all of this is our work with arm processors Graviton three, where, you know, we are building our own chip to make sure that we are designing energy efficiency into the process. And you know, we, there's the arm graviton, three arm processor chips, there are about 60% more energy efficient compared to some of the CD six comparable. So all those things that are also we are working on in making sure that whatever our customers build on our platform is long term sustainable. So that's another dimension of how we are working that into our >>Platform. That's awesome. This is a great conversation. You know, the supply chain is on both sides, physical and software. You're starting to see them come together in great conversations and certainly moving workloads to the cloud running in more efficiently will help on the sustainability side, in my opinion. Of course, you guys talked about that and we've covered it, but now you start getting into how to refactor, and this is a big conversation we've been having lately, is as you not just lift and ship but re-platform and refactor, customers are seeing great advantages on this. So I have to ask you guys, how are you helping customers and organizations support sustainability and, and simplify the complex environment that has a lot of potential integrations? Obviously API's help of course, but that's the kind of baseline, what's the, what's the advice that you give customers? Cause you know, it can look complex and it becomes complex, but there's an answer here. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, I think so. Whenever, when, when I get questions like this from from customers, the, the first thing I guide them to is, we talked earlier about this notion of consistency and how important that is. It's one thing, it it, it is one way to solve the problem is to create an entirely new operational model, an entirely new acquisition model and an entirely new stack of technologies in order to be more sustainable. That is probably not in the cards for most folks. What they want to do is have their existing estate and they're trying to introduce sustainability into the work that they are already doing. They don't need to build another silo in order to create sustainability, right? And so there have to be, there has to be some common threads, there has to be some common platforms across the existing estate and your more sustainable estate, right? >>And, and so things like Red Hat enterprise Linux, which can provide this kind of common, not just a technical substrate, but a common operational substrate on which you can build these solutions if you have a common platform on which you are building solutions, whether it's RHEL or whether it's OpenShift or any of our other platforms that creates options for you underneath. So that in some cases maybe you need to run things on premise, some things you need to run in the cloud, but you don't have to profoundly change how you work when you're moving from one place to another. >>And that, what's your thoughts on, on the simplification? >>Yeah, I mean think that when you talk about replatforming and refactoring, it is a daunting undertaking, you know, in today's, in the, especially in today's fast paced work. So, but the good news is you don't have to do it by yourself. Customers don't have to do it on their own. You know, together AWS and Red Hat, we have our rich partner ecosystem, you know AWS over AWS has over a hundred thousand partners that can help you take that journey, the transformation journey. And within AWS and working with our partners like Red Hat, we make sure that we have all in, in my mind there are really three big pillars that you have to have to make sure that customers can successfully re-platform refactor their applications to the modern cloud architecture. You need to have the rich set of services and tools that meet their different scenarios, different use cases. Because no one size fits all. You have to have the right programs because sometimes customers need those incentives, they need those, you know, that help in the first step and last but no needs, they need training. So all of that, we try to cover that as we work with our customers, work with our partners and that is where, you know, together we try to help customers take that step, which is, which is a challenging step to take. >>Yeah. You know, it's great to talk to you guys, both leaders in your field. Obviously Red hats, well story history. I remember the days back when I was provisioning, loading OSS on hardware with, with CDs, if you remember, that was days gunner. But now with high level services, if you look at this year's reinvent, and this is like kind of my final question for the segment is then we'll get your reaction to is last year we talked about higher level services. I sat down with Adam Celski, we talked about that. If you look at what's happened this year, you're starting to see people talk about their environment as their cloud. So Amazon has the gift of the CapEx, the all that, all that investment and people can operate on top of it. They're calling that environment their cloud. Okay, For the first time we're seeing this new dynamic where it's like they have a cloud, but they're Amazon's the CapEx, they're operating. So you're starting to see the operational visibility gun around how to operate this environment. And it's not hybrid this, that it's just, it's cloud. This is kind of an inflection point. Do you guys agree with that or, or having a reaction to that statement? Because I, I think this is kind of the next gen super cloud-like capability. It's, it's, we're going, we're building the cloud. It's now an environment. It's not talking about private cloud, this cloud, it's, it's all cloud. What's your reaction? >>Yeah, I think, well I think it's a very natural, I mean we used words like hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, if, I guess super cloud is what the kids are saying now, right? It's, it's all, it's all describing the same phenomena, right? Which is, which is being able to take advantage of lots of different infrastructure options, but still having something that creates some commonality among them so that you can, so that you can manage them effectively, right? So that you can have kind of uniform compliance across your estate so that you can have kind of, you can make the best use of your talent across the estate. I mean this is a, this is, it's a very natural thing. >>They're calling it cloud, the estate is the cloud. >>Yeah. So yeah, so, so fine if it, if it means that we no longer have to argue about what's multi-cloud and what's hybrid cloud, I think that's great. Let's just call it cloud. >>And what's your reaction, cuz this is kind of the next gen benefits of, of higher level services combined with amazing, you know, compute and, and resource at the infrastructure level. What's your, what's your view on that? >>Yeah, I think the construct of a unified environment makes sense for customers who have all these use cases which require, like for instance, if you are doing some edge computing and you're running it WS outpost or you know, wave lent and these things. So, and, and it is, it is fear for customer to say, think that hey, this is one environment, same set of tooling that they wanna build that works across all their different environments. That is why we work with partners like Red Hat so that customers who are running Red Hat Enterprise Linux on premises and who are running in AWS get the same level of support, get the same level of security features, all of that. So from that sense, it actually makes sense for us to build these capabilities in a way that customers don't have to worry about, Okay, now I'm actually in the AWS data center versus I'm running outpost on premises. It is all one. They, they just use the same set of cli command line APIs and all of that. So in that sense, it's actually helps customers have that unification so that that consistency of experience helps their workforce and be more productive versus figuring out, okay, what do I do, which tool I use? Where >>And on you just nailed it. This is about supply chain sustainability, moving the workloads into a cloud environment. You mentioned wavelength, this conversation's gonna continue. We haven't even talked about the edge yet. This is something that's gonna be all about operating these workloads at scale and all the, with the cloud services. So thanks for sharing that and we'll pick up that edge piece later. But for reinvent right now, this is really the key conversation. How to bake the sustained supply chain work in a complex environment, making it simpler. And so thanks for sharing your insights here on the cube. >>Thanks. Thanks for having >>Us. Okay, this is the cube's coverage of ados Reinvent 22. I'm John Fur, your host. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE. We're covering Red Hat Summit 2022. We're going to wrap up now, Dave Vellante, Paul Gillin. We want to introduce you to Stephanie Chan, who's our new correspondent. Stephanie, one of your first events, your very first CUBE event. So welcome. >> Thank you. >> Up from NYC. Smaller event, but intimate. You got a chance to meet some folks last night at some of the after parties. What are your overall impressions? What'd you learn this week? >> So this has been my first in-person event in over two years. And even though, like you said, is on the smaller scale, roughly around 1000 attendees, versus it's usual eight to 10,000 attendees. There's so much energy, and excitement, and openness in these events and sessions. Even before and after the sessions people have been mingling and socializing and hanging out. So, I think a lot of people appreciate these in-person events and are really excited to be here. >> Cool. So, you also sat in some of the keynotes, right? Pretty technical, right? Which is kind of new to sort of your genre, right? I mean, I know you got a financial background but, so what'd you think of the keynotes? What'd you think of the format, the theater in the round? Any impressions of that? >> So, I think there's three things that are really consistent in these Red Hat Summit keynotes. There's always a history lesson. There's always, you know, emphasis in the culture of openness. And, there's also inspirational stories about how people utilize open source. And I found a lot of those examples really compelling and interesting. For instance, people use open source in (indistinct), and even in space. So I really enjoyed, you know, learning about all these different people and stories. What about you guys? What do you think were the big takeaways and the best stories that came out of the keynotes? >> Paul, want to start? >> Clearly the Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9 is a major rollout. They do that only about every three years. So that's a big deal to this audience. I think what they did in the area of security, with rolling out sigstore, which is a major new, I think an important new project that was sort of incubated at Red Hat. And they're trying to put in to create an open source ecosystem around that now. And the alliances. I'm usually not that much on partnerships, but the Accenture and the Microsoft partnerships do seem to be significant to the company. And, finally, the GM partnership which I think was maybe kind of the bombshell that they sort of rushed in at the last minute. But I think has the biggest potential impact on Red Hat and its partner ecosystem that is really going to anchor their edge architecture going forward. So I didn't see it so much on the product front, but the sense of Red Hat spreading its wings, and partnering with more companies, and seeing its itself as really the center of an ecosystem indicates that they are, you know, they're in a very solid position in their business. >> Yeah, and also like the pandemic has really forced us into this new normal, right? So customer demand is changing. There has been the shift to remote. There's always going to be a new normal according to Paul, and open source carries us through that. So how do you guys think Red Hat has helped its portfolio through this new normal and the shift? >> I mean, when you think of Red Hat, you think of Linux. I mean, that's where it all started. You think OpenShift which is the application development platforms. Linux is the OS. OpenShift is the application development platform for Kubernetes. And then of course, Ansible is the automation framework. And I agree with you, ecosystem is really the other piece of this. So, I mean, I think you take those three pieces and extend that into the open source community. There's a lot of innovation that's going around each of those, but ecosystems are the key. We heard from Stefanie Chiras, that fundamental, I mean, you can't do this without those gap fillers and those partnerships. And then another thing that's notable here is, you know, this was, I mean, IBM was just another brand, right? I mean, if anything it was probably a sub-brand, I mean, you didn't hear much about IBM. You certainly had no IBM presence, even though they're right across the street running Think. No Arvind present, no keynote from Arvind, no, you know, Big Blue washing. And so, I think that's a testament to Arvind himself. We heard that from Paul Cormier, he said, hey, this guy's been great, he's left us alone. And he's allowed us to continue innovating. It's good news. IBM has not polluted Red Hat. >> Yes, I think that the Red Hat was, I said at the opening, I think Red Hat is kind of the tail wagging the dog right now. And their position seems very solid in the market. Clearly the market has come to them in terms of their evangelism of open source. They've remained true to their business model. And I think that gives them credibility that, you know, a lot of other open source companies have lacked. They have stuck with the plan for over 20 years now and have really not changed it, and it's paying off. I think they're emerging as a company that you can trust to do business with. >> Now I want to throw in something else here. I thought the conversation with IDC analyst, Jim Mercer, was interesting when he said that they surveyed customers and they wanted to get the security from their platform vendor, versus having to buy these bespoke tools. And it makes a lot of sense to me. I don't think that's going to happen, right? Because you're going to have an identity specialist. You're going to have an endpoint specialist. You're going to have a threat detection specialist. And they're going to be best of breed, you know, Red Hat's never going to be all of those things. What they can do is partner with those companies through APIs, through open source integrations, they can add them in as part of the ecosystem and maybe be the steward of that. Maybe that's the answer. They're never going to be the best at all those different security disciplines. There's no way in the world, Red Hat, that's going to happen. But they could be the integration point. And that would be, that would be a simplifying layer to the equation. >> And I think it's smart. You know, they're not pretending to be an identity in access management or an anti-malware company, or even a zero trust company. They are sticking to their knitting, which is operating system and developers. Evangelizing DevSecOps, which is a good thing. And, that's what they're going to do. You know, you have to admire this company. It has never gotten outside of its swim lane. I think it's understood well really what it wants to be good at. And, you know, in the software business knowing what not to do is more important than knowing what to do. Is companies that fail are usually the ones that get overextended, this company has never overextended itself. >> What else do you want to know? >> And a term that kept popping up was multicloud, or otherwise known as metacloud. We know what the cloud is, but- >> Oh, supercloud, metacloud. >> Supercloud, yeah, here we go. We know what the cloud is but, what does metacloud mean to you guys? And why has it been so popular in these conversations? >> I'm going to boot this to Dave, because he's the expert on this. >> Well, expert or not, but I mean, again, we've coined this term supercloud. And the idea behind the supercloud or what Ashesh called metacloud, I like his name, cause it allows Web 3.0 to come into the equation. But the idea is that instead of building on each individual cloud and have compatibility with that cloud, you build a layer across clouds. So you do the hard work as a platform supplier to hide the underlying primitives and APIs from the end customer, or the end developer, they can then add value on top of that. And that abstraction layer spans on-prem, clouds, across clouds, ultimately out to the edge. And it's new, a new value layer that builds on top of the hyperscale infrastructure, or existing data center infrastructure, or emerging edge infrastructure. And the reason why that is important is because it's so damn complicated, number one. Number two, every company's becoming a software company, a technology company. They're bringing their services through digital transformation to their customers. And you've got to have a cloud to do that. You're not going to build your own data center. That's like Charles Wang says, not Charles Wang. (Paul laughing) Charles Phillips. We were just talking about CA. Charles Phillips. Friends don't let friends build data centers. So that supercloud concept, or what Ashesh calls metacloud, is this new layer that's going to be powered by ecosystems and platform companies. And I think it's real. I think it's- >> And OpenShift, OpenShift is a great, you know, key card for them or leverage for them because it is perhaps the best known Kubernetes platform. And you can see here they're really doubling down on adding features to OpenShift, security features, scalability. And they see it as potentially this metacloud, this supercloud abstraction layer. >> And what we said is, in order to have a supercloud you got to have a superpaz layer and OpenShift is that superpaz layer. >> So you had conversations with a lot of people within the past two days. Some people include companies, from Verizon, Intel, Accenture. Which conversation stood out to you the most? >> Which, I'm sorry. >> Which conversation stood out to you the most? (Paul sighs) >> The conversation with Stu Miniman was pretty interesting because we talked about culture. And really, he has a lot of credibility in that area because he's not a Red Hat. You know, he hasn't been a Red Hat forever, he's fairly new to the company. And got a sense from him that the culture there really is what they say it is. It's a culture of openness and that's, you know, that's as important as technology for a company's success. >> I mean, this was really good content. I mean, there were a lot, I mean Stefanie's awesome. Stefanie Chiras, we're talking about the ecosystem. Chris Wright, you know, digging into some of the CTO stuff. Ashesh, who coined metacloud, I love that. The whole in vehicle operating system conversation was great. The security discussion that we just had. You know, the conversations with Accenture were super thoughtful. Of course, Paul Cormier was a highlight. I think that one's going to be a well viewed interview, for sure. And, you know, I think that the customer conversations are great. Red Hat did a really good job of carrying the keynote conversations, which were abbreviated this year, to theCUBE. >> Right. >> I give 'em a lot of kudos for that. And because, theCUBE, it allows us to double click, go deeper, peel the onion a little bit, you know, all the buzz words, and cliches. But it's true. You get to clarify some of the things you heard, which were, you know, the keynotes were, were scripted, but tight. And so we had some good follow up questions. I thought it was super useful. I know I'm leaving somebody out, but- >> We're also able to interview representatives from Intel and Nvidia, which at a software conference you don't typically do. I mean, there's the assimilation, the combination of hardware and software. It's very clear that, and this came out in the keynote, that Red Hat sees hardware as matter. It matters. It's important again. And it's going to be a source of innovation in the future. That came through clearly. >> Yeah. The hardware matters theme, you know, the old days you would have an operating system and the hardware were intrinsically linked. MVS in the mainframe, VAX, VMS in the digital mini computers. DG had its own operating system. Wang had his own operating system. Prime with Prime OS. You remember these days? >> Oh my God. >> Right? (Paul laughs) And then of course Microsoft. >> And then x86, everything got abstracted. >> Right. >> Everything became x86 and now it's all atomizing again. >> Although WinTel, right? I mean, MS-DOS and Windows were intrinsically linked for many, many years with Intel x86. And it wasn't until, you know, well, and then, you know, Sun Solaris, but it wasn't until Linux kind of blew that apart. And the internet is built on the lamp stack. And of course, Linux is the fundamental foundation for Red Hat. So my point is, that the operating system and the hardware have always been very closely tied together. Whether it's security, or IO, or registries and memory management, everything controlled by the OS are very close to the hardware. And so that's why I think you've got an affinity in Red Hat to hardware. >> But Linux is breaking that bond, don't you think? >> Yes, but it still has to understand the underlying hardware. >> Right. >> You heard today, how taking advantage of Nvidia, and the AI capabilities. You're seeing that with ARM, you're seeing that with Intel. How you can optimize the operating system to take advantage of new generations of CPU, and NPU, and CPU, and PU, XPU, you know, across the board. >> Yep. >> Well, I really enjoyed this conference and it really stressed how important open source is to a lot of different industries. >> Great. Well, thanks for coming on. Paul, thank you. Great co-hosting with you. And thank you. >> Always, Dave. >> For watching theCUBE. We'll be on the road, next week we're at KubeCon in Valencia, Spain. We're at VeeamON. We got a ton of stuff going on. Check out thecube.net. Check out siliconangle.com for all the news. Wikibon.com. We publish there weekly, our breaking analysis series. Thanks for watching everybody. Dave Vellante, for Paul Gillin, and Stephanie Chan. Thanks to the crew. Shout out, Andrew, Alex, Sonya. Amazing job, Sonya. Steven, thanks you guys for coming out here. Mark, good job corresponding. Go to SiliconANGLE, Mark's written some great stuff. And thank you for watching. We'll see you next time. (calm music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back. We're winding down theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. We're here at the Seaport in Boston. It's been two days of a little different Red Hat Summit. We're used to eight, 9,000 people. It's much smaller event this year, fewer developers or actually in terms of the mix, a lot more suits this year, which is kind of interesting to see that evolution and a big virtual audience. And I love the way, the keynotes we've noticed are a lot tighter. They're pithy, on time, they're not keeping us in the hall for three hours. So we appreciate that kind of catering to the virtual audience. Dave Vellante here with my co-host, Paul Gillin. As to say things are winding down, there was an analyst event here today, that's ended, but luckily we have Jim Mercer here as a research director at IDC. He's going to share maybe some of the learnings from that event today and this event overall, we're going to talk about DevSecOps. And Kirsten Newcomer is director of security, product management and hybrid platforms at Red Hat. Folks, welcome. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Great to see you. >> Great to be here. >> Security's everywhere, right? You and I have spoken about the supply chain hacks, we've done some sort of interesting work around that and reporting around that. I feel like SolarWinds created a new awareness. You see these moments, it's Stuxnet, or WannaCry and now is SolarWinds very insidious, but security, Red Hat, it's everywhere in your portfolio. Maybe talk about the strategy. >> Sure, absolutely. We feel strongly that it's really important that security be something that is managed in a holistic way present throughout the application stack, starting with the operating system and also throughout the life cycle, which is partly where DevSecOps comes in. So Red Hat has kind of had a long history here, right? Think SELinux and Red Hat Enterprise Linux for mandatory access control. That's been a key component of securing containers in a Kubernetes environment. SELinux has demonstrated the ability to prevent or mitigate container escapes to the file system. And we just have continued to work up the stack as we go, our acquisition of stack rocks a little over a year ago, now known as Red Hat Advanced Cluster Security, gives us the opportunity to really deliver on that DevSecOps component. So Kubernetes native security solution with the ability to both help shift security left for the developers by integrating in the supply chain, but also providing a SecOps perspective for the operations and the security team and feeding information between the two to really try and do that closed infinity loop and then an additional investment more recently in sigstore and some technologies. >> Interesting. >> Yeah, is interesting. >> Go ahead. >> But Shift Left, explain to people what you mean by Shift Left for people might not be familiar with that term. >> Fair enough. For many, many years, right, IT security has been something that's largely been part of an operations environment and not something that developers tended to need to be engaged in with the exception of say source code static analysis tools. We started to see vulnerability management tools get added, but even then they tend to come after the application has been built. And I even ran a few years ago, I ran into a customer who said my security team won't let me get this information early. So Shift Left is all about making sure that there are security gates in the app dev process and information provided to the developer as early as possible. In fact, even in the IDE, Red Hat code ready dependency analytics does that, so that the developers are part of the solution and don't have to wait and get their apps stalled just before it's ready to go into deployment. >> Thank you. You've also been advocating for supply chain security, software supply chain. First of all, explain what a software supply chain is and then, what is unique about the security needs of that environment? >> Sure. And the SolarWinds example, as Dave said, really kind of has raised awareness around this. So just like we use the term supply chain, most people given kind of what's been happening with the pandemic, they've started hearing that term a lot more than they used to, right? So there's a supply chain to get your groceries, to the grocery store, food to the grocery store. There's a supply chain for manufacturing, where do the parts come for the laptops that we're all using, right? And where do they get assembled? Software has a supply chain also, right? So for years and even more so now, developers have been including open source components into the applications they build. So some of the supplies for the applications, the components of those applications, they can come from anywhere in the world. They can come from a wide range of open source projects. Developers are adding their custom code to that. All of this needs to be built together, delivered together and so when we think about a supply chain and the SolarWinds hack, right, there are a couple of elements of supply chain security that are particularly key. The executive order from May of last year, I think was partly in direct response to the SolarWinds hack. And it calls out that we need a software bill of materials. Now again, in manufacturing that's something folks are used to, I actually had the opportunity to contribute to the software package data exchange format, SPDX when it was first started, I've lost track of when that was. But an S-bomb is all about saying, what are all of those components that I'm delivering in my solution? It might be an application layer. It might be the host operating system layer, but at every layer. And if I know what's in what I'm delivering, I have the opportunity to learn more information about those components to track where does Log4Shell, right? When the Log4j or Spring4Shell, which followed shortly thereafter. When those hit, how do I find out which solutions that I'm running have the vulnerable components in them and where are they? The software bill of materials helps with that but you also have to know where, right. And that's the Ops side. I feel like I missed a piece of your question. >> No, it's not a silver bullet though, to your point and Log4j very widely used, but let's bring Jim into the conversation. So Jim, we've been talking about some of these trends, what's your focus area of research? What are you seeing as some of the mega trends in this space? >> I mean, I focus in DevOps and DevSecOps and it's interesting just talking about trends. Kirsten was mentioning the open source and if you look back five, six, seven years ago and you went to any major financial institution, you asked them if they use an open source. Oh, no. >> True. >> We don't use that, right. We wrote it all here. It's all from our developers-- >> Witchcraft. >> Yeah, right, exactly. But the reality is, they probably use a little open source back then but they didn't realize it. >> It's exactly true. >> However, today, not only are they not on versed to open source, they're seeking it out, right. So we have survey data that kind of indicates... A survey that was run kind of in late 2021 that shows that 70% of those who responded said that within the next two years 90% of their applications will be made up of open source. In other words, the content of an application, 10% will be written by themselves and 90% will come from other sources. So we're seeing these more kind of composite applications. Not, everybody's kind of, if you will, at that 90%, but applications are much more composite than they were before. So I'm pulling in pieces, but I'm taking the innovation of the community. So I not only have the innovation of my developers, but I can expand that. I can take the innovation to the community and bring that in and do things much quicker. I can also not have my developers worry about things that, maybe just kind of common stuff that's out there that might have already been written. In other words, just focus on the business logic, don't focus on, how to get orders or how to move widgets and those types of things that everybody does 'cause that's out there in open source. I'll just take that, right. I'll take it, somebody's perfected it, better than I'll ever do. I'll take that in and then I'll just focus and build my business logic on top of that. So open source has been a boom for growth. And I think we've heard a little bit of that (Kirsten laughs) in the last two days-- >> In the Keynotes. >> From Red Hat, right. But talking about the software bill of materials, and then you think about now I taking all that stuff in, I have my first level open source that I took in, it's called it component A. But behind component A is all these transitive dependencies. In other words, open source also uses open source, right? So there's this kind of this, if you will, web or nest, if you want to call it that, of transitive dependencies that need to be understood. And if I have five, six layers deep, I have a vulnerability in another component and I'm over here. Well, guess what? I picked up that vulnerability, right. Even though I didn't explicitly go for that component. So that's where understanding that software bill of materials is really important. I like to explain it as, during the pandemic, we've all experienced, there was all this contact tracing. It was a term where all came to mind. The software bill of materials is like the contact tracing for your open source, right. >> Good analogy. >> Anything that I've come in contact with, just because I came in contact with it, even though I didn't explicitly go looking for COVID, if you will, I got it, right. So in the same regard, that's how I do the contact tracing for my software. >> That 90% figure is really striking. 90% open source use is really striking, considering that it wasn't that long ago that one of the wraps on open source was it's insecure because anybody can see the code, therefore anybody can see the vulnerabilities. What changed? >> I'll say that, what changed is kind of first, the understanding that I can leapfrog and innovate with open source, right? There's more open source content out there. So as organizations had to digitally transform themselves and we've all heard the terminology around, well, hey, with the pandemic, we've leapfrog up five years of digital transformation or something along those lines, right? Open source is part of what helps those teams to do that type of leapfrog and do that type of innovation. You had to develop all of that natively, it just takes too long, or you might not have the talent to do it, right. And to find that talent to do it. So it kind of gives you that benefit. The interesting thing about what you mentioned there was, now we're hearing about all these vulnerabilities, right, in open source, that we need to contend with because the bad guys realize that I'm taking a lot of open source and they're saying, geez, that's a great way to get myself into applications. If I get myself into this one open source component, I'll get into thousands or more applications. So it's a fast path into the supply chain. And that's why it's so important that you understand where your vulnerabilities are in the software-- >> I think the visibility cuts two ways though. So when people say, it's insecure because it's visible. In fact, actually the visibility helps with security. The reality that I can go see the code, that there is a community working on finding and fixing vulnerabilities in that code. Whereas in code that is not open source it's a little bit more security by obscurity, which isn't really security. And there could well be vulnerabilities that a good hacker is going to find, but are not disclosed. So one of the other things we feel strongly about at Red Hat, frankly, is if there is a CVE that affects our code, we disclose that publicly, we have a public CVE database. And it's actually really important to us that we share that, we think we share way more information about issues in our code than most other users or consumers of open source and we work that through the broad community as well. And then also for our enterprise customers, if an issue needs to be fixed, we don't just fix it in the most recent version of the open source. We will backport that fix. And one of the challenges, if you're only addressing the most recent version, that may not be well tested, it might have other bugs, it might have other issues. When we backport a security vulnerability fix, we're able to do that to a stable version, give the customers the benefit of all the testing and use that's gone on while also fixing. >> Kirsten, can you talk about the announcements 'cause everybody's wondering, okay, now what do I do about this? What technology is there to help me? Obviously this framework, you got to follow the right processes, skill sets, all that, not to dismiss that, that's the most important part, but the announcements that you made at Red Hat Summit and how does the StackRox acquisition fit into those? >> Sure. So in particular, if we stick with DevSecOps a minute, but again, I'll do. Again for me, DevSecOps is the full life cycle and many people think of it as just that Shift Left piece. But for me, it's the whole thing. So StackRox ACS has had the ability to integrate into the CI/CD pipeline before we bought them. That continues. They don't just assess for vulnerabilities, but also for application misconfigurations, excess proof requests and helm charts, deployment YAML. So kind of the big, there are two sort of major things in the DevSecOps angle of the announcement or the supply chain angle of the announcement, which is the investment that we've been making in sigstore, signing, getting integrity of the components, the elements you're deploying is important. I have been asked for years about the ability to sign container images. The reality is that the signing technology and Red Hat signs everything we ship and always have, but the signing technology wasn't designed to be used in a CI/CD pipeline and sigstore is explicitly designed for that use case to make it easy for developers, as well as you can back it with full CO, you can back it with an OIDC based signing, keyless signing, throw away the key. Or if you want that enterprise CA, you can have that backing there too. >> And you can establish that as a protocol where you must. >> You can, right. So our pattern-- >> So that would've helped with SolarWinds. >> Absolutely. >> Because they were putting in malware and then taking it out, seeing what happened. My question was, could sigstore help? I always evaluate now everything and I'm not a security expert, but would this have helped with SolarWinds? A lot of times the answer is no. >> It's a combination. So a combination of sigstore integrated with Tekton Chains. So we ship Tekton, which is a Kubernetes supply chain pipeline. As OpenShift pipelines, we added chains to that. Chains allows you to attest every step in your pipeline. And you're doing that attestation by signing those steps so that you can validate that those steps have not changed. And in fact, the folks at SolarWinds are using Tekton Chains. They did a great talk in October at KubeCon North America on the changes they've made to their supply chain. So they're using both Tekton Chains and sigstore as part of their updated pipeline. Our pattern will allow our customers to deploy OpenShift, advanced cluster manager, advanced cluster security and Quay with security gates in place. And that include a pipeline built on Tekton with Tekton Chains there to sign those steps in the pipeline to enable signing of the code that's moving through that pipeline to store that signature in Quay and to validate the image signature upon deployment with advanced cluster security. >> So Jim, your perspective on this, Red Hat's, I mean, you care about security, security's everywhere, but you're not a security company. You follow security companies. There's like far too many of them. CISOs all say my number one challenge is lack of talent, but I have all these tools to deal with. You see new emerging companies that are doing pretty well. And then you see a company that's highly respected, like an Okta screw up the communications on a pretty benign hack. Actually, when you peel the onion on that, it's just this mess (chuckles) and it doesn't seem like it's going to get any simpler. Maybe the answer is companies like Red Hat kind of absorbing that and taking care of it. What do you see there? I mean, maybe it's great for business 'cause you've got so many companies. >> There's a lot of companies and there's certainly a lot of innovation out there and unique ways to make security easier, right. I mean, one of the keys here is to be able to make security easier for developers, right. One of the challenges with adopting DevSecOps is if DevSecOps creates a lot of friction in the process, it's hard to really... I can do it once, but I can't keep doing that and get the same kind of velocity. So I need to take the friction out of the process. And one of the challenges a lot of organizations have, and I've heard this from the development side, but I've also heard it from the InfoSec side, right. Because I take inquiry for people on InfoSec, and they're like, how do I get these developers to do what I want? And part of the challenge they have is like, I got these teams using these tools. I got those teams using those tools. And it's a similar challenge that we saw on DevOps where there's just too many, if you will, too many dang tools, right. So that is a challenge for organizations is, they're trying to kind of normalize the tools. Interestingly, we did a survey, I think around last August or something. And one of the questions was around, where do you want your security? Where do you want to get your DevSecOps security from, do you want to get it from individual vendors? Or do you want to get it from like, your platforms that you're using and deploying changes in Kubernetes. >> Great question. What did they say? >> The majority of them, they're hoping they can get it built into the platform. That's really what they want. And you see a lot of the security vendors are trying to build security platforms. Like we're not just assess tool, we're desk, we're this, whatever. And they're building platforms to kind of be that end-to-end security platform, trying to solve that problem, right, to make it easier to kind of consume the product overall, without a bunch of individual tools along the way. But certainly tool sprawl is definitely a challenge out there. Just one other point around the sigstore stuff which I love. Because that goes back to the supply chain and talking about digital providence, right. Understanding where things... How do I validate that what I gave you is what you thought it was, right. And what I like about it with Tekton Chains is because there's a couple things. Well, first of all, I don't want to just sign things after I built the binary. Well, I mean, I do want to sign it, but I want to just sign things once, right. Because all through the process, I think of it as a manufacturing plant, right. I'm making automobiles. If I check the quality of the automobile at one stage and I don't check it to the other, things have changed, right. How do I know that I did something wasn't compromised, right. So with sigstore kind of tied in with Tekton Chains, kind of gives me that view. And the other aspect I like it about is, this kind of transparency in the log, right-- >> The report component. >> Exactly. So I can see what was going on. So there is some this kind of like public scrutiny, like if something bad happened, you could go back and see what happened there and it wasn't as you were expected. >> As with most discussions on this topic, we could go for an hour because it's really important. And thank you guys for coming on and sharing your perspectives, the data. >> Our pleasure. >> And keep up the good work. Kirsten, it's on you. >> Thanks so much. >> The IDC survey said it, they want it in platforms. You're up. >> (laughs) That's right. >> All right. Good luck to both you. >> Thank you both so much. >> All right. And thank you for watching. We're back to wrap right after this short break. This is Dave Vellante for Paul Gill. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Boston, Massachusetts. We're here at the Seaport. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. My name is Dave Vellante and Paul Gillin is here. He's my cohost for the next day. We are going to dig in to the famous RHEL, Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Gunnar Hellekson is here, he's the Vice President and General Manager of Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Gunnar, welcome to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Thanks for having me. Nice to be here, Dave, Paul. >> RHEL 9 is, wow, nine, Holy cow. It's been a lot of iterations. >> It's the highest version of RHEL we've ever shipped. >> And now we're talking edge. >> Yeah, that's right. >> And so, what's inside, tell us. to keep happy with a new RHEL release. to keep happy with a new RHEL release. The first is the hardware partners, right, because they rely on RHEL to light up all their delicious hardware that they're making, then you got application developers and the ISVs who rely on RHEL to be that kind of stable platform for innovation, and then you've got the operators, the people who are actually using the operating system itself and trying to keep it running every day. So we've got on the, I'll start with the hardware side, So we've got on the, I'll start with the hardware side, which is something, as you know, RHEL success, and I think you talked about this with Matt, just in a few sessions earlier that the success of RHEL is really, hinges on our partnerships with the hardware partners and in this case, we've got, let's see, in RHEL 9 we've got all the usual hardware suspects and we've added, just recently in January, we added support for ARM servers, as general ARM server class hardware. And so that's something customers have been asking for, delighted to be shipping that in RHEL 9. So now ARM is kind of a first-class citizen, right? Alongside x86, PowerZ and all the other usual suspects. And then of course, working with our favorite public cloud providers. So making sure that RHEL 9 is available at AWS and Azure and GCP and all our other cloud friends, right? >> Yeah, you mentioned ARM, we're seeing ARM in the enterprise. We're obviously seeing ARM at the edge. You guys have been working with ARM for a long time. You're working with Intel, you're working with NVIDIA, you've got some announcements this week. Gunnar, how do you keep Linux from becoming Franken OS with all these capabilities? >> This is a great question. First is, the most important thing is to be working closely with, I mean, the whole point of Linux and the reason why Linux works is because you have all these people working together to make the same thing, right? And so fighting that is a bad idea. Working together with everyone, leaning into that collaboration, that's an important part of making it work over time. The other one is having, just like in any good relationship, having healthy boundaries. And so making sure that we're clear about the things that we need to keep stable and the places where we're allowed to innovate and striking the right balance between those two things, that allows us to continue to ship one coherent operating system while still keeping literally thousands of platforms happy. >> So you're not trying to suck in all the full function, you're trying to accommodate that function that the ecosystem is going to develop? >> Yeah, that's right. So the idea is that what we strive for is consistency across all of the infrastructures and then allowing for kind of optimizations and we still let ourselves take advantage of whatever indigenous feature might appear on, such an ARM chip or thus in a such cloud platform. But really, we're trying to deliver a uniform platform experience to the application developers, right? Because they can't be having, like there can't be kind of one version of RHEL over here and another version of RHEL over here, the ecosystem wouldn't work. The whole point of Linux and the whole point of Red Hat Enterprise Linux is to be the same so that everything else can be different. >> And what incentives do you use to keep customers current? >> To keep customers current? Well so the best thing to do I found is to meet customers where they are. So a lot of people think we release RHEL 9 at the same time we have Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8, we have Red Hat Enterprise Linux 7, all these are running at the same time, and then we also have multiple minor release streams inside those. So at any given time, we're running, let's say, a dozen different versions of RHEL are being maintained and kept up-to-date, and we do this precisely to make sure that we're not force marching people into the new version and they have a Red Hat Enterprise Linux subscription, they should just be able to sit there and enjoy the minor version that they like. And we try and keep that going for as long as possible. >> Even if it's 10 years out of date? >> So, 10 years, interesting you chose that number because that's the end of life. >> That's the end of the life cycle. >> Right. And so 10 years is about, that's the natural life of a given major release, but again inside that you have several 10-year life cycles kind of cascading on each other, right? So nine is the start of the next 10-year cycle while we're still living inside the 10-year cycle of seven and eight. So lots of options for customers. >> How are you thinking about the edge? how do you define, let's not go to the definition, but at high level. (Gunnar laughing) Like I've been in a conference last week. It was Dell Tech World, I'll just say it. They were sort of the edge to them was the retail store. >> Yeah. >> Lowe's, okay, cool, I guess that's edgy, I guess, But I think space is the edge. (Gunnar chuckling) >> Right, right, right. >> Or a vehicle. How do you think about the edge? All the above or but the exciting stuff to me is that far edge, but I wonder if you can comment. >> Yeah, so there's all kinds of taxonomies out there for the edge. For me, I'm a simple country product manager at heart and so, I try to keep it simple, right? And the way I think about the edge is, here's a use case in which somebody needs a small operating system that deploys on probably a small piece of hardware, usually varying sizes, but it could be pretty small. That thing needs to be updated without any human touching it, right? And it needs to be reliably maintained without any human touching it. Usually in the edge cases, actually touching the hardware is a very expensive proposition. So we're trying to be as hands off as possible. >> No truck rolls. >> No truck rolls ever, right, exactly. (Dave chuckling) And then, now that I've got that stable base, I'm going to go take an application. I'll probably put it in a container for simplicity's sake and same thing, I want to be able to deploy that application. If something goes wrong, I need to build a roll back to a known good state and then I need to set of management tools that allow me to touch things, make sure that everything is healthy, make sure that the updates roll out correctly, maybe do some AB testing, things like that. So I think about that as, that's the, when we talk about the edge case for RHEL, that's the horizontal use case and then we can do specializations inside particular verticals or particular industries, but at bottom that's the use case we're talking about when we talk about the edge. >> And an assumption of connectivity at some point? >> Yeah. >> Right, you didn't have to always be on. >> Intermittent, latent, eventual connectivity. >> Eventual connectivity. (chuckles) That's right in some tech terms. >> Red Hat was originally a one trick pony. I mean, RHEL was it and now you've got all of these other extensions and different markets that you expanded into. What's your role in coordinating what all those different functions are doing? >> Yes, you look at all the innovations we've made, whether it's in storage, whether it's in OpenShift and elsewhere, RHEL remains the beating heart, right? It's the place where everything starts. And so a lot of what my team does is, yes, we're trying to make all the partners happy, we're also trying to make our internal partners happy, right? So the OpenShift folks need stuff out of RHEL, just like any other software vendor. And so I really think about RHEL is yes, we're a platform, yes, we're a product in our own right, but we're also a service organization for all the other parts of the portfolio. And the reason for that is we need to make sure all this stuff works together, right? Part of the whole reasoning behind the Red Hat Portfolio at large is that each of these pieces build on each other and compliment each other, right? I think that's an important part of the Red Hat mission, the RHEL mission. >> There's an article in the journal yesterday about how the tech industry was sort of pounding the drum on H-1B visas, there's a limit. I think it's been the same limit since 2005, 65,000 a year. We are facing, customers are facing, you guys, I'm sure as well, we are, real skills shortage, there's a lack of talent. How are you seeing companies deal with that? What are you advising them? What are you guys doing yourselves? >> Yeah, it's interesting, especially as everybody went through some flavor of digital transformation during the pandemic and now everybody's going through some, and kind of connected to that, everybody's making a move to the public cloud. They're making operating system choices when they're making those platform choices, right? And I think what's interesting is that, what they're coming to is, "Well, I have a Linux skills shortage and for a thousand reasons the market has not provided enough Linux admins." I mean, these are very lucrative positions, right? With command a lot of money, you would expect their supply would eventually catch up, but for whatever reason, it's not catching up. So I can't solve this by throwing bodies at it so I need to figure out a more efficient way of running my Linux operation. People are making a couple choices. The first is they're ensuring that they have consistency in their operating system choices, whether it's on premise or in the cloud, or even out on the edge, if I have to juggle three, four different operating systems, as I'm going through these three or four different infrastructures, that doesn't make any sense, 'cause the one thing is most precious to me is my Linux talent, right? And so I need to make sure that they're consistent, optimized and efficient. The other thing they're doing is tooling and automation and especially through tools like Ansible, right? Being able to take advantage of as much automation as possible and much consistency as possible so that they can make the most of the Linux talent that they do have. And so with Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9, in particular, you see us make a big investment in things like more automation tools for things like SAP and SQL server deployments, you'll see us make investments in things like basic stuff like the web console, right? We should now be able to go and point and click and go basic Linux administration tasks that lowers the barrier to entry and makes it easier to find people to actually administer the systems that you have. >> As you move out onto these new platforms, particularly on the edge, many of them will be much smaller, limited function. How do you make the decisions about what features you're going to keep or what you're going to keep in RHEL when you're running on a thermostat? >> Okay, so let me be clear, I don't want RHEL to run on a thermostat. (everybody laughing) >> I gave you advantage over it. >> I can't handle the margins on something like that, but at the end. >> You're running on, you're running on the GM. >> Yeah, no that's, right? And so the, so the choice at the, the most important thing we can do is give customers the tools that they need to make the choice that's appropriate for their deployment. I have learned over several years in this business that if I start choosing what content a customer decide wants on their operating system I will always guess it wrong, right? So my job is to make sure that I have a library of reliable, secure software options for them, that they can use as ingredients into their solution. And I give them tools that allow them to kind of curate the operating system that they need. So that's the tool like Image Builder, which we just announced, the image builder service lets a customer go in and point and click and kind of compose the edge operating system they need, hit a button and now they have an atomic image that they can go deploy out on the edge reliably, right? >> Gunnar can you clarify the cadence of releases? >> Oh yeah. >> You guys, the change that you made there. >> Yeah. >> Why that change occurred and what what's the standard today? >> Yeah, so back when we released RHEl 8, so we were just talking about hardware and you know, it's ARM and X86, all these different kinds of hardware, the hardware market is internally. I tell everybody the hardware market just got real weird, right? It's just got, the schedules are crazy. We got so many more entrance. Everything is kind of out of sync from where it used to be, it used to be there was a metronome, right? You mentioned Moore's law earlier. It was like a 18 month metronome. Everybody could kind of set their watch to. >> Right. >> So that's gone, and so now we have so much hardware that we need to reconcile. The only way for us to provide the kind of stability and consistency that customers were looking for was to set a set our own clock. So we said three years for every major release, six months for every minor release and that we will ship a new minor release every six months and a new major release every three years, whether we need it or not. And that has value all by itself. It means that customers can now plan ahead of time and know, okay, in 36 months, the next major release is going to come on. And now that's something I can plan my workload around, that something I can plan a data center migration around, things like that. So the consistency of this and it was a terrifying promise to make three years ago. I am now delighted to announce that we actually made good on it three years later, right? And plan two again, three years from now. >> Is it follow up, is it primarily the processor, optionality and diversity, or as I was talking to an architect, system architect the other day in his premise was that we're moving from a processor centric world to a connect centric world, not just the processor, but the memories, the IO, the controllers, the nics and it's just keeping that system in balance. Does that affect you or is it primarily the processor? >> Oh, it absolutely affects us, yeah. >> How so? >> Yeah, so the operating system is the thing that everyone relies on to hide all that stuff from everybody else, right? And so if we cannot offer that abstraction from all of these hardware choices that people need to make, then we're not doing our job. And so that means we have to encompass all the hardware configurations and all the hardware use cases that we can in order to make an application successful. So if people want to go disaggregate all of their components, we have to let 'em do that. If they want to have a kind of more traditional kind of boxed up OEM experience, they should be able to do that too. So yeah, this is what I mean is because it is RHEL responsibility and our duty to make sure that people are insulated from all this chaos underneath, that is a good chunk of the job, yeah. >> The hardware and the OS used to be inseparable right before (indistinct) Hence the importance of hardware. >> Yeah, that's right. >> I'm curious how your job changes, so you just, every 36 months you roll on a new release, which you did today, you announced a new release. You go back into the workplace two days, how is life different? >> Not at all, so the only constant is change, right? And to be honest, a major release, that's a big event for our release teams. That's a big event for our engineering teams. It's a big event for our product management teams, but all these folks have moved on and like we're now we're already planning. RHEL 9.1 and 9.2 and 8.7 and the rest of the releases. And so it's kind of like brief celebration and then right back to work. >> Okay, don't change so much. >> What can we look forward to? What's the future look like of RHEL, RHEL 10? >> Oh yeah, more bigger, stronger, faster, more optimized for those and such and you get, >> Longer lower, wider. >> Yeah, that's right, yeah, that's right, yeah. >> I am curious about CentOS Stream because there was some controversy around the end of life for CentOS and the move to CentOS Stream. >> Yeah. >> A lot of people including me are not really clear on what stream is and how it differs from CentOS, can you clarify that? >> Absolutely, so when Red Hat Enterprise Linux was first created, this was back in the days of Red Hat Linux, right? And because we couldn't balance the needs of the hobbyist market from the needs of the enterprise market, we split into Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Fedora, okay? So then for 15 years, yeah, about 15 years we had Fedora which is where we took all of our risks. That was kind of our early program where we started integrating new components, new open source projects and all the rest of it. And then eventually we would take that innovation and then feed it into the next version of Red Hat Enterprise Linux. The trick with that is that the Red Hat Enterprise Linux work that we did was largely internal to Red Hat and wasn't accessible to partners. And we've just spent a lot of time talking about how much we need to be collaborating with partners. They really had, a lot of them had to wait until like the beta came out before they actually knew what was going to be in the box, okay, well that was okay for a while but now that the market is the way that it is, things are moving so quickly. We need a better way to allow partners to work together with us further upstream from the actual product development. So that's why we created CentOS Stream. So CentOS Stream is the place where we kind of host the party and people can watch the next version of Red Hat Enterprise get developed in real time, partners can come in and help, customers can come in and help. And we've been really proud of the fact that Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9 is the first release that came completely out of CentOS Stream. Another way of putting that is that Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9 is the first version of RHEL that was actually built, 80, 90% of it was built completely in the open. >> Okay, so that's the new playground. >> Yeah, that's right. >> You took a lot of negative pushback when you made the announcement, is that basically because the CentOS users didn't understand what you were doing? >> No, I think the, the CentOS Linux, when we brought CentOS Linux on, this was one of the things that we wanted to do, is we wanted to create this space where we could start collaborating with people. Here's the lesson we learned. It is very difficult to collaborate when you are downstream of the product you're trying to improve because you've already shipped the product. And so once you're for collaborating downstream, any changes you make have to go all the way up the water slide and before they can head all the way back down. So this was the real pivot that we made was moving that partnership and that collaboration activity from the downstream of Red Hat Enterprise Linux to putting it right in the critical path of Red Hat Enterprise Linux development. >> Great, well, thank you for that Gunnar. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, it's great to, >> Yeah, my pleasure. >> See you and have a great day tomorrow. Thanks, and we look forward to seeing you tomorrow. We start at 9:00 AM. East Coast time. I think the keynotes, we will be here right after that to break that down, Paul Gillin and myself. This is day one for theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022 from Boston. We'll see you tomorrow, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host for theCUBE. In this segment, we're going to be talking about Red Hat and the AWS evolving partnership. A great segment, really talking about how Hybrid and the Enterprise are evolving, certainly multicloud and the horizon. But a lot of benefits in the cloud, we've been covering on theCUBE and on SiliconANGLE with Red Hat for the past year. Very relevant. We've got Gunnar Hellekson, GM of Red Hat Enterprise Linux, And Joe Fernandes, VP and GM of the Hybrid Platforms, both of Red Hat. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> Thanks for having us John. >> So, you know, me, I'm a fan boy of Red Hat. So I always say, you guys made all the right investments, OpenShift, all these things that you guys made decisions years ago playing out beautifully. And I think, you know, with Amazon's re:Invent, you're seeing the themes all play out. Modern application stack, you're starting to see things at the top of the stack evolve, you've got 5G in the Edge, workloads being redefined and expanded on the cloud with Cloud Scale. So everything has been going down to Hybrid and Enterprise grade level discussions. This is in the Wheelhouse of Red Hat. So I want to congratulate you. But what's your reaction? What do you guys see this year at re:Invent? What's the top story? >> I can start. >> Who wants to start with first? >> Sure, I mean, clearly, AWS itself is huge. But as you mentioned, the world is Hybrid, right, so customers are running still in their data center, in the Amazon Public Cloud across multiple Public Clouds and out to the Edge and bring in more and more workloads. So it's not just the applications, analytics. It's AI, it's machine learning. And so, yeah, we can expect to see more discussion around that, more great examples of customer use cases. And as you mentioned, Red Hat has been right in the middle of this for some time John. >> You guys also had some success with the fully managed OpenShift service called ROSA, R-O-S-A, which is Red Hat OpenShift Service on AWS, another acronym, but really this is about what the customers are looking for. Can you take us through an update on OpenShift on AWS, because the combination of managed services in the cloud, refactoring applications, but working on-premises is a big deal. Take us through why that's so important. >> Yeah, so, we've had customers running OpenShift on AWS for a long time, right? So whether it's our software-based offerings where customers deploy OpenShift themselves, or our fully managed cloud service. We've had cloud services on AWS for over five years. What ROSA brings or Red Hat OpenShift on AWS is a jointly managed service, right? So we're working in partnership with Amazon, with AWS to make OpenShift available as a jointly-managed service offering. It's a native AWS service offering. You can get it right through the AWS console. You can leverage your AWS committed spend. But, most importantly, you know, it's something that we're working on together. Bringing new customers to the table for both Red Hat and AWS. And we're really excited about it because it's really helping customers accelerate their move to the public cloud and really helping them drive that Hybrid strategy that we talked about. >> Gunnar, you know what I want to get your thoughts on this, because one of the things that I love about this market right now is open-source continues to be amazing, continues to drive more value, and there's new migration of talent coming in. The numbers are just continuing to grow and grow. But the importance of Red Hat's history with AWS is pretty significant. I mean, Red Hat pioneered Open-source and it's been involved with AWS from the early days. Can you take us through a little bit of history for the folks that may not know Red Hat's partnership with AWS? >> Yeah. I mean, we've been collaborating with AWS since 2008. So for over a decade we've been working together, and what's made the partnership work is that we have a common interest in making sure that customers have a consistent approachable experience. Whether they're going on-premise or in the cloud. Nobody wants to have to go through an entire retraining and retooling exercise just to take advantage of all the great advantages of the cloud. And, so being able to use something like Red Hat Enterprise Linux as a consistent substrate on which you can build your application platforms is really attractive. So, that's where the partnership started. And since then we've had the ability to better integrate with native AWS services. And one thing I want to point out is that, a lot of these integrations are kind of technical. It's not just about technical consistency across these platforms, it's also about operational consistency and business concerns. And when you're moving into an Open Hybrid Cloud kind of a situation, that's what becomes important, right? You don't want to have two completely different tool sets on two completely different platforms. You want as much consistency as possible as you move from one to the other. And I think a lot of customers see value in that, both for the Red Hat Enterprise Linux side of the business, and also on the OpenShift side of the business. >> Well that's interesting. I'd love to get your both perspective on this whole Enterprise focus, because the Enterprise is, as you know, guys you've been there from the beginning, they have requirements. And there're sometimes, they're different by Enterprise. So as you see cloud, and I remember early days of Amazon, it's the 15th year of AWS, 10th year of re:Invent as a conference. I mean, that seems like a lifetime ago. But that's not, not too far ago where, you know, it was like, well, Amazon might not make it, its only for developers. Enterprisers do their own thing. Now it's like, it's all about the Enterprise. How are Enterprise customers evolving with you guys? Because they're all seeing the benefit of replatforming. But as they refactor, how has Red Hat evolved with that trend and how have you helped Amazon? >> Yeah, so as we mentioned, Enterprisers really across the globe are adopting a Hybrid Cloud Strategy. But, Hybrid actually isn't just about the infrastructure. So, its certainly the infrastructure where these Enterprisers are running these applications is increasingly becoming Hybrid as you move from data center to multiple public clouds and out to the Edge. But the Enterprisers application portfolios are also Hybrid, right? It's a Hybrid mix of very traditional monolithic and tier type applications. But also new cloud native services that have either been built from scratch, or as you mentioned, existing applications have been refactored. And then they're moving beyond the applications, as I mentioned to make better use of data. Also evolving their processes for how they build, deploy, and manage, leveraging, CI/CD and GitOps and so forth. So really for us it's, how do you help Enterprises bring all that together, right? Manage this Hybrid infrastructure that's supporting this Hybrid portfolio of applications that really help them evolve their processes. We've been working with Enterprises on these types of challenges for a long time. And we're now partnering with Amazon to do the same in terms of our joint product and service offerings. >> Talking about the RHEL evolution. I mean, because that's the bread and butter for Red Hat. It has been there for a long time. OpenShift again, making argument earlier, I mentioned the bets you guys made with Kubernetes, for instance, and it's all been made with all the right moves. So I love ROSA. You got me sold on that. RHEL though has been the tried and true steady workhorse. How has that evolved with workloads? >> Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think when customers were at the stage, when they were wondering, if well, can I use AWS to solve my problem, or should I use AWS to solve my problem? Our focus was largely on kind of technical enablement. Can we keep up with the pace of new hardware that Amazon is rolling up? Can we ensure that consistency with the on-premise and off-premise? And I think now we're starting to shift focus into really differentiating RHEL on the AWS platform. Again, integrating natively with AWS services, making it easier to operate in AWS. And a good example of this is using tools like Red Hat Insights, which we announced, I guess, about a year ago. Which is now included in every Red Hat Enterprise Linux subscription. Using tools like Insights in order to give customers advice on maybe potential problems that are coming up, helping customer solve them. Can the customers identify problems before they happen? Helping them with performance problems. And again, having additional tools like that, additional cloud-based tools, makes RHEL as easy to use on the Cloud despite all the complexity of all the redeploying, refactoring, microservices, there is now a proliferation of infrastructure options, and to the extent that RHEL can be the thing that is consistent, solid, reliable, secure, just as customers are getting in, then we can make customer successful. >> You know, Joe, we talked about this last time we were chatting, I think Red Hat Summit or Ansible Fest, I forget which event it was, but we were talking about how modern application developers at the top of the stack just want to code. They want to write some code, and now they want the infrastructure's code, AKA DevOps, DevSecOps, but as this trend of moving up the stack continues to be a big theme at re:Invent, that requires automation. That requires a lot of stuff that happened under the covers. Red Hat is at the center of all this action from historical perspective, pre-existing Enterprises before Cloud now, during Cloud, and soon to be Cloud Scale, how do you see that evolving? Because how are customers shaping their architecture? Cause this is distributed computing in the cloud. It's essentially, we've seen this moving before, but now at such a scale where data, security, these are all new elements. How do you talk about that? >> Yeah, well, first of all, got to mention, Linux is a given right. Linux is going to be available in every environment, data center, Public Cloud, Edge. Linux combined with Linux containers and Kubernetes, that's the abstraction like abstracting the applications away from the infrastructure. And now it's all about how do you build on top of that to bring that automation that you mentioned. So, we're very focused on helping customers really build fully automated end to end deployment pipelines, so they can build their applications more efficiently. They can automate the continuous integration and deployment of those applications into whatever Cloud or Edge footprint they choose. And that they can promote across environments. Because again, it's not just about developing the applications, it's about moving them all the way through to production where their customers are relying on those services to do their work and so forth. And so that's what we're doing is, you know, obviously I think, Linux is a given, Linux, Containers, Kubernetes. Those decisions have been made and now it's a matter of how can we put that together with the automation that allows them to accelerate those deployments out to production so customers can take advantage of them? >> You know, Gunnar, we were joking in theCUBE. I was old enough to remember we used to install Linux on a server back in the day. Now a lot of these young developers never actually have to install the software and do some of those configurations 'cause it's all automated now. Again, the commoditization and automation trend, abstraction layers, some say, is a good thing. So how do you see the evolution of this DevOps movement with the partnership with AWS going forward? What types of things are you working on with Amazon Web Services and what kind of offerings can customers look forward to? >> Yeah, sure. So, I mean, it used to be that as you say, Linux was something that you managed with a mouse and keyboard. And I think it's been quite a few years since any significant amount of Linux has been managed with a mouse and a keyboard. A lot of it is scripts, automation tools, configuration management tools, things like this. And the investments we've made both in RHEL and in specifically RHEL on AWS is around enabling RHEL to be more manageable. And so, including things like something we call System Roles. So these are Ansible modules that kind of automate routine system's administration tasks. We've made investments in something called Image Builder. And so this is a tool that allows customers to kind of compose the operating system that they need, create a blueprint for it, and then kind of stamp out the same image, whether it's an ISO image, so you can install it on-premise or an AMI so we can deploy it in AWS. So again, the problem used to be helping customers package and manage dependencies and that kind of old world, three and a half-inch floppy disc kind of Linux problems. And now we've evolved towards making Linux easier to deploy and manage at a grand scale whether you're in AWS or whether you're On premise. >> Joe, take us through the Hybrid story. I know obviously success with OpenShifts Managed Service on AWS. What's the update there for you? What are customers expecting this re:Invent and what's the story for you guys? >> Yeah, so, you know, the OpenShift Managed Services business this is the fastest growing segment of our business. We're seeing lots of new customers. And again, bringing new customers, I think for both Red Hat and AWS through this service. So, we expected to hear from customers at re:Invent about what they're doing. Again, not only with OpenShift and our Red Hat solutions, but really with what they're building on top of those service offerings, of those solutions to sort of bring more value to their customers. To me, that's always the best part of re:Invent is really hearing from customers. And when we all start going there in person again, to actually be able to meet with them one-on-one, whether it's in person or virtual and so forth. So, looking forward to that. >> Well, great to have you guys on theCUBE. Congratulations on all success. The Enterprise continues to adopt more and more Cloud which benefits all the work you guys have done both on the RHEL side, and as you guys modernize with all these great services and managed services continues to be the center of all the action. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Thanks John. >> Thank you. >> Okay, Red Hat's partnership with AWS evolving as Cloud scale Edge, all distributed computing, all happening at large scale. This is theCUBE with CUBE coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Welcome to this Kube Conversation. I'm Dave Nicholson. And today we have a very special guest from Red Hat, Nick Barcet. Nick is the Senior Director of Technology, Technology Strategy at Red Hat. Nick, welcome back to theCUBE. >> Thank you. It's always a pleasure to be visiting you here virtually. >> It's fantastic to have you here. I see a new office surroundings at Red Hat. Have they taken a kind of a nautical theme at the office there? Where are you joining us from? >> I'm joining from my boat now, I've been living on my boat for the past few years, and that's where you'll find me most of the time. >> So would you consider your boat to be on the Edge? >> It's certainly one form of Edge. You know, there are multiple forms of Edge and a boat is one of those forms. >> Let's talk about Edge now. We're having this conversation in anticipation of KubeCon CloudNativeCon that's coming up North America 2021, coming up in Los Angeles. Let's talk about specifically the Edge, where the Edge, Edge computing and Kubernetes come together from a Red Hat perspective. Walk us through that, talk about some of the challenges that people are having at the Edge, why Kubernetes is something that would be considered at the edge. Walk us through that. >> Let's start from the premises that people have been doing stuff at the Edge for ages. I mean, nobody has been waiting for Kubernetes or any other technology to start implementing some form of computing that is happening in their stores, in their factories, wherever. What's really new today is when we talk about Edge computing, it's reusing the same technology we've been using to deploy inside of the data center and expand that all the way to the Edge. And that's what, from my perspective, constituents, Edge computing or the revolution it bring. So that means that the same GitOps, DevSecOps methodology that we were using into that center are now expandable all the way to those devices that leaves in where locations and that we can reuse the same methodology, the same tooling, and that includes Kubernetes. And all the efforts we've been doing over the past couple of years has been to make Kubernetes even more accessible for the various Edge typologies that we are encountering when discussing with our customer that have Edge projects. >> So typically when we think of a Kubernetes environment, you're talking about containers that are contained in pods, that live on physical clusters, despite all of the talk of a no-code and serverless, we still live in a world where applications and microservices run on physical servers. Are there practical limitations in terms of just how small you can scale Kubernetes? How far, how close to the Edge can you get with the Kubernetes deployment? >> So in theory, there is really no limit. As the smallest devices are always bigger than Kubernetes itself. But the reality is you never use just Kubernetes, you use Kubernetes with a series of other projects that makes it complete, or for example, stuff that is going to be reporting telemetry, components that are going to help you automatically scale, et cetera. And the further you go into the Edge, the less of these competence you can afford. So you have to make trade-offs when you reduce the size of the device. Today, what Red Hat offers, is really concentrated to where we can deliver a full OpenShift experience. So the smallest environments on which we would recommend to run OpenShift at the Edge is a single node is roughly 24 gigabytes of RAM, which is you could buy it, sorry, which is already a relatively big Edge device. And when you go a step lower then, that's where we would recommend using a standard rail for Edge configuration or something similar. Not Kubernetes anymore. >> So you said single node, are you let's double click on that for a second. Is that a single physical node that is abstracted in a way to create some level of logical redundancy? When you say single node, walk us through that. We've got containers that are in pods, so what are we talking about? >> You have, based on your requirements, you can have different way of addressing your compute need at the Edge. You can have those smallest of clusters. And this would be three nodes that are delivered, with is the control plane and the worker nodes integrated into one. When you want to go a step further, you could use worker nodes that are controlled remotely via a central control plane that is at a central site. And when you want to go, even one step further deploy Kubernetes on a very small machine, but that remains fully functional even if disconnected that's when you would use the thing that is not anymore a cluster, which is a single note, Kubernetes where you still have access to the full Kubernetes API, regardless of the connectivity of your site, whether it's active or not, whether you're at sea or in the air or not. And that's where we still offer some form of software high vulnerability, because Kubernetes, even on a single node, it'll still detect if a container dies and restarted and provide similar functionality like this, but it won't provide hardware availability since we are a single node. >> And that makes sense. Yeah, that makes, yeah, it makes perfect sense. And I would suggest that we refer to that as a single node cluster, just because we like to mix it up with terminology in our business and sometimes confuse people with it. >> Technically, that was the choice we made, actually. You like to call it a cluster because it's not a cluster >> Exactly. No, I appreciate that. Absolutely. So what's be explicit about what the trade-offs are there. Let's say that I'm thinking of deploying something at the Edge, and I'm going use Kubernetes to orchestrate my container environment and pretend for a moment that space and cost aren't huge limiting factors. I could put a three node cluster in, but the idea of putting in a single node is very, it's attractive. Where does, where's the line drawn in terms of what you would recommend from, you know, what are the trade offs? What am I losing, going to the single node cluster? See I just called that. >> Well, in a nutshell, you're losing hardware high availability. Meaning if one of your server fails since you only have one server, you lose everything. And there is no way around that. That's the biggest trade-off. Then you have also a trade-off on the memory used by the control plane, which you won't be able to use to do something else. So if I have a site with excellent connectivity and the biggest loss of connectivity might be counted in hours, maybe a remote worker use a better solution because this way, I have a single central-side that carries my control plane, and I can use all the RAM and all the CPU's on my local site to deploy my workloads, not to carries a control plane. To give you an example of these trade-off in the telco space, for example, if you're deploying an antenna in a city, you have plenty of antennas covering that city. And therefore, the loss of one antenna is not a big deal. So in that case, you will be tempted to use a remote worker because you will be maximizing your use of the RAM on the sites for the workload, which is let's have people establish communication using their phones. But now, we take another antenna that we are getting to locate in a very remote location. There, if this antenna fail, everybody fails. There's nobody that is able to make calls, even emergency vehicles cannot discuss together very often. So in that case, it's a lot better to have an autonomous deployment, something where the control plane and the workload itself are being run in one box. And this one box in fact can be duplicated. There could be a another box that is either seating in a truck in case of emergency or off, but on the antenna site, so that in case of a major failure, you have a possibility to re to restore it. So it really depends on what's your sets of constraints in terms of availability in SIM of efficiency of your RAM use is going to be that it's going to make you choose between one or the other of the deployment models. >> No, that's a great example. And so it sounds like it's not a one size fits all world, obviously. Now, from the perspective of the marketplace, looking in at Red Hat, participating in this business, some think of Red Hat as the company that deployed Linux 20 years ago. Help us make that connection between Red Hat today and what you've been doing for the last 20 years and this topic of Edge computing, 'cause some people don't automatically think of Red Hat an Edge computing. I do, I think they should, (chuckles) but help us understand that. >> Yeah, obviously a lot of people consider that Red Hat is Red Hat, Linux, and that's it. The Red Hat Enterprise Linux is what we've been known since our beginnings 25 years ago, and what has made our early success. But we consider ourselves more of an infrastructure company. We have been offering for the past 20 years, the various component that you need to deploy server, run and manage your workloads across data centers and make sure that you can store your data, and that you can automate your operations on top of this infrastructure. So we really consider ourselves much more of a company that offers everything that enables you to run your servers and run your workloads on top of your server. And that includes a tool to do virtualization, that includes tool to do continuous deployment of containers. And that's where Kubernetes entered in play about 10 years ago. Well, first it was OPAs that then became Kubernetes and the OpenShift offering that we have today. >> Yeah. Thanks for that. So I have, I've got a final question for you. It's a little bit off topic, but it's related, this is in the category of Nick predicts. So when does Nick predict that we will get to a point where we tip beyond the 50/50 point cloud versus on-premises IT spending, if you accept today that we're still in the neighborhood of 75 to 80% on-premises. When will we hit the 50/50 mark? I'm not asking you for the hundred percent cloud date, but give us a date, you give us a month and a year for 50/50. >> Given the progression of cloud, if there was no Edge, we could said two to three years from now, we would be at this 50/50 mark. But the funny thing is that at the same time, as the cloud progresses, people start realizing that they have needs that needs to be solved locally. And this is why we are deploying Edge-based solution, solution which reliably can provide answers, regardless of the connectivity to the cloud, regardless of the bandwidth. There are things that I would never want to do, like feeding a size on feeds from 4K cameras, into my cloud environment that won't scale, I won't have the bandwidth to do so. And therefore, maybe the answer to your question is, it's going to be asymptotic, and it's almost impossible to predict. >> So that is a much better answer than giving me an exact date and time, because (chuckles) because it reveals exactly the reality that we're living in. Again, there is, you know, it's fit for function. It's not cloud for cloud's sake, compute resources, data, resources have a place that they naturally belong oftentimes. And oftentimes that is on the Edge, whether it's on the edge of the edge of the world in a sailboat or out in a single server, not node, or I keep wanting to single node cluster, it's killing me. I dunno why, I think it's so funny, but a single node implementation of OpenShift where you can run Kubernetes on the Edge, it's a fascinating subject. Anything else that you want to share with us that we didn't get? >> I think one aspect that we never talk enough is how do you manage at the scale of Edge? Because even though each Edge site is very small, you can have thousands, even hundreds of thousands of these single node something that are running all over the place. And I think that what you're seeing in advent cluster management for Kubernetes, and particularly the 2.4 version that we are going to be announcing this week and actually releasing in November is I think a pretty good answer to that problem on how do I deploy with zero touch these devices? How do I update them, upgrade them? How do I deploy the workloads on top of that? How do I ensure to have the right tooling to deploy that at the scale? And we've done the testing now of ACM with up to 2,000 clusters, connected to a single ACMs. And in the future, we are planning on building federation of those, which really gives us the possibility to provide the tooling needed to manage at its scale. >> Excellent. Excellent. Yeah. That's whenever we start talking about anything in the realm of containerization and Kubernetes scale starts to become an issue. It's no longer a question of a human being managing 10 servers and 50 applications. We start talking about tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of instances where it's beyond human scale. So that's obviously something that's very, very important. Well, Nick, I want to thank you for becoming a Kube veteran once again. Thanks for joining this Kube Conversation from Dave Nicholson, this has been a Kube Conversation in anticipation of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2021. Thanks for tuning in. (bright music)

(light, upbeat music) >> The last decade of cloud computing introduced and popularized an operating model that emphasized, simplified IT infrastructure provisioning and management. As well, it ushered in an era of consumption-based pricing and much more facile IT management, generally. Now these principles, they've bled into traditional data centers, which have increasingly become software led, programmable and DevOps centric. Now as we enter the post isolation era, it's ironic that not only are IT executives pursuing hybrid strategies, but everyone is talking about hybrid. Hybrid work, hybrid teams, hybrid events, hybrid meetings. The world has gone hybrid and the cloud is no exception. The cloud is expanding. Public cloud models are pushing to the data center and the edge on premises infrastructure is connecting to public clouds and managing data workflows and infrastructure across clouds and out to the edge. Now most leading technology executives that I speak with, they're essentially architecting their own clouds. And what I mean by that is they're envisioning and building an abstraction layer that hides the complexity of the underlying infrastructure and manages workloads intelligently. The end customer doesn't know or care where the data is, as long as it's secure, properly governed, and could be accessed quickly, all irrespective of physical location. Now for the most part, this vision, it can't be bought off the shelf. It needs to be built by placing bets on key technology partners and leveraging the so-called API economy. In other words, picking technology vendors that I trust in programmatically codifying and automating where possible my organizational edicts and business requirements into my own cloud to uniquely support my application portfolio in my modern business processes, which by the way, are rapidly evolving. Now, a key to enabling this vision is optionality. Meaning, not getting locked into one single technology platform, but rather having the confidence that as technology evolves, which it always does, I can focus my energies on adding value to my business through process innovation and human capital growth. Hello, everyone and welcome to this cube conversation and video exclusive on a major new industry development and partnership that's designed to maximize customer infrastructure options and move the new era of hybrid cloud computing forward. We have two industry leaders joining us today. Monica Kumar is the senior vice president of marketing and cloud go-to-market from Nutanix, and David Farrell is the senior vice president and general manager for global strategic alliances at Red Hat. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Good to be here today. >> Thank you so much. >> All right, so Red Hat is the poster child for open source success and it's executing on a strategy based on Red Hat Enterprise Linux, RHEL and OpenShift, the industry's leading container platform, to drive cloud-like experiences. Nutanix is a pioneering company and was the first to truly envision and successfully bring to market a cloud operating model to data center infrastructure. So you two, are getting together and forming a deeper, more substantive relationship. So Monica, tell us about the hard news. What's the scoop? >> Yeah, of course. So, first of all, I'm so excited to be here with David Farrell from Red Hat and for those of you who may not know this, I have a very deep personal connection with Red Hat from my previous role as well. I've been working with Red Hat since the early 2000s. So it gives me great pleasure to be here on behalf of Nutanix and with David from Red Hat, to be announcing a formal strategic partnership to deliver open hybrid multi-cloud solutions. Now let me explain to you what I mean by that. This partnership that we're announcing today is going to enable best-in-class solutions for building, scaling and managing containerized and virtualized cloud native applications in of course, hyper-converged infrastructure environments. So the collaboration is going to bring together these industry-leading technologies. Enabling and integrating Red Hat OpenShift and Red Hat Enterprise Linux, onto the Nutanix cloud platform, which includes, you know, our well-known Nutanix AOS and AHV hypervisor technologies. Now the question is, why are we doing all this? It's because of, as you said, Dave, the rapid evolution of hybrid cloud strategies and adoption of containers and Kubernetes in our customer base to develop, deploy and manage apps. And what we're hearing from our customers is that they want this integration between Red Hat Technologies and Nutanix Solutions. >> Okay. Thank you, Monica. So big news David, from Red Hat's perspective. Okay. So Red Hat, Nutanix, both leaders in their respective fields. David, what spurred the decision to partner from your standpoint? >> Yeah. And listen, let me echo Monica's comments as well. So we're really excited about the partnership with Nutanix. And we're excited because Nutanix is the leader in hybrid cloud infrastructure, but we're even more excited because this is what customers have been asking us to do. And that's really at the core of the decision. I think both teams, both companies have been listening to customers and we've got a groundswell of enterprise customers around the world that are asking us to come together. Bring our technologies together from a certification perspective, which Monica spoke about, right, is number one. So RHEL and OpenShift being certified on top of AHV, right. To provide the best-in-class service for enterprise grade applications, but there's more to it than just the certification. Like customers are looking for a world-class integrated support experience as well as they go into, into production. So we also have integrated support, right. So customers can contact Nutanix, they can contact Red Hat and having that seamless, that seamless experience is really, really critical and something that our customers have been asking us for. And then we'll continue to work from a roadmap perspective as well, from an engineering perspective, to make sure that our roadmaps are aligned and the customers have assurance over time and continuity over time so that they can make investments that they know are going to pay off and be safe investments and scalable investments over the long arc of their technology horizon, so. So those are, those are kind of our view of why this is good for customers and back to your points, David, it's about choice and optionality, right? And choice and consistency, and I think the verdict is in now, in the industry, that hybrid is the future, right? Everybody kind of agrees on that, right? In certain applications and certain workloads are going to run on-prem, others are going to run on the public cloud, and customers need choice to be able to decide what's the right destination for those workloads. And that's what Red Hat's all about, that's what RHEL's all about, what OpenShift is all about, is that it runs on any cloud infrastructure. Now it runs on Nutanix HCI. >> So I liked that two, one virtual throat to choke, or maybe better put, maybe one virtual hand to shake. So David staying with you, maybe you could talk about some of the other key terms of the partnership. Maybe focus on joint solutions that the customers can expect and I'm particularly interested in the engineering collaboration. I know there's a go-to-market component, but the engineering collaboration and technology innovation that we can expect. >> Yeah. So there's a few components to it, David. One is, obviously as I talked about roadmap, right. And that's, you know, our technology teams coming together, looking at the existing roadmaps for RHEL and OpenShift, but also adjacent capabilities that are coming from the Red Hat portfolio and capabilities that are coming from our ISV ecosystems and our respective ecosystems. This is a big win for our partners, as well, that have been asking us to work together. So we'll continue to keep the radar up about what some of those functionalities and capabilities ought to be. Whether we make them or somebody else makes them to pull into the, pull into the strategy, if you will. The second big principle around joint engineering is going to be around customer experience, right. So for example, we're starting off with the agnostic installer and by the way, this is coming Thursday, right? I think we're live on Thursday, the 29th, right? So this is in market, it is GA, it's available today, the 29th, right. And then we will move to the, to the UPI- so sorry, to the IPI installer in the second half of this year, right. To provide a more automated experience and then I think on the Nutanix side, Monica can, can talk to this, that Nutanix is building APIs to also automate installation, right? So first and foremost, we're all about getting the solution and getting the jointly engineered technologies working together and providing a superior customer experience for our customers that are deploying Red Hat on top of Nutanix. And that's going to be the guiding, the guiding driver, if you will, for how we work together. >> Yeah. And let me add to that. Like you said, we are, the engineering is already bearing fruit for our customers, right. As of today, when we announcing, we already have certified versions of Red Hat Linux with AHV, number one. Number two, as you said, the agnostic installer is available. We will make the automated installer available so any customer can deploy OpenShift using the Nutanix cloud platform in the very near future, right. Those are the two sort of the beginnings of the engineering and this is going to, this is a longterm partnership, so we will continue to evolve the different configurations that we, you know, that we test and that we validate as well as we go on. So I'm really excited about the fact that we are going to be offering customers fully tested, validated configurations to deploy. (cross talk) >> Go ahead >> David if I may just in there as well, I mean, so that's on the engineering side, right. But there'll also be an important thing, customers expect us to cooperate in to engage proactively as we face them, right. So that both the Red Hat, part of the agreement is that both the Red Hat and the Nutanix field teams, right the customer teams, will also be enabled, right. We'll do technical enablement for our teams, stand up proof of technologies, right. So that we're burning in some of the technology, if you will, and working out the kinks before the customer has to, right. And this is also a key value proposition is we're doing this work upstream, both in the engineering teams and in the field engagement teams so that customers can get time to market, if you will, and speed of solution deployment. >> Got it. So we'd love to talk about the sweet spot, the ideal customer profile at ICP. So is there a particular type of customer Monica, that stands to benefit most from the partnership and the certifications that you're committing to? >> Yeah. I mean, if you look at, you know, cloud native app development, that's happening across all types of segments, but particularly, you know, enterprise customers running, in all industries practically, running tier one applications or building custom applications in the cloud would be a great focus for this. Our customers who are mature in their cloud native journeys and want to build and run cloud native workloads at scale would be another type of audience. I mean, when you really think about the gamut of customers we serve jointly together, it's all the way from, you know, mid-sized customers who are, who may want a complete solution that's built for them, to enterprise customers and even globals accounts that are actually doing a lot of custom application development and then deploying things at scale. So really, I mean, anybody who's developing applications, anybody who's running workloads, you know, database workloads, applications that they're building, analytics workloads, I think for all of them. This is a very beneficial solution and I would say specifically from a Nutanix customer perspective, we've had a demand for, you know, the certification with AHV and RHEL for a long time. So that's something our customers are very much looking forward to. We have a large number of customers who already are deploying that configuration and now they know it's fully tested, fully supported, and there's an ongoing roadmap from both companies to support it. And then as far as OpenShift goes, we are super excited about the possibilities of providing that optionality to customers and really meeting them at every level of their journey to the cloud. >> So you got the product level certifications, that to me is all about trust and it's kind of table stakes, but if I have that, now I can, I can lean in. What other kind of value dimensions should we be thinking about with regard to this, this partnership? I mean, obviously, you know, cost savings, you know, speed, things like that, but maybe you could sort of add more color to that. >> Yeah. Well, absolutely, look. I mean, anytime there's joint there's integration, there is complexity that's taken out of deployment from the customer's hands and the vendors do the work upfront, that results in a lot of different benefits. Including productivity benefits, speed to market benefits, total cost of ownership benefits, as you said. So we expect that the fact that the two companies are now going to do all this work upfront for our customers, they'll be able to deploy and do things that we're doing, you know, much faster than before, right? So that's, you know, definitely we believe, and then also joined support. I think David mentioned that, the fact that we are offering joint support as well to our customers we'll be problem solving together. So the seamless support experience will provide faster resolution for our joint customers. >> Great. David, I wonder if you could kind of share your view of you know, thinking about the Nutanix cloud platform, what makes it well suited for supporting OpenShift and cloud native workloads? >> Well, I think the, look first off, they're the leader, right. They bring the most trusted and tried HCI environment in the industry to bear for customers, right. And they deliver on the promises that Monica just went through, right, around simplicity, around ease of use, around scalability, around optionality, right. And they take that complexity away and that's what customers I think are telling both Red Hat and Nutanix, and really everybody for that matter, right. Is that they want to focus on the business outcomes, on the business value, on the applications, that differentiate them. And Nutanix really takes away a lot of that complexity for the customer at the infrastructure level, right. And then RHEL, and OpenShift and Red Hat do that as well, both at the infrastructure level and at the application level, right. So when it comes to simplicity, and when it comes to choice, but consistency, both Nutanix and Red Hat have that at the core of how we build and how we engineer products that we take to market to remove that complexity so the customers can move quickly, more cost-effectively, and have that optionality that they're after. >> Yeah and David, if I may add to that, and thank you again for saying the things you said, that's exactly why our customers choose us. One of the key factors is our distributed architecture as well, because of the way it's architected, the Nutanix cloud platform delivers an environment that's highly scalable and resilient, and it's well suited for enterprise deployments of Red Hat, OpenShift at scale. The platform also includes, you know, fully integrated unified storage, which addresses many of the challenging problems faced by operators routinely in configuring and managing storage for stateful containers, for example. So there's a lot of goodness there and the combination of Red Hat, both you know, RHEL and OpenShift, any 10x platform, I believe, offers really unparalleled value to our customers in terms of the technology we bring and the integration we bring to our customers. >> Okay, great. Last question, David, maybe you first, and then Monica, you can bring us home. Where do you guys want to see this partnership going? >> We want to see it going where, customers are getting the most value of course, right. And we would like to see obviously adoption, right. So, anytime two leaders like ourselves come together, it's all about delivering for the customer. We've got a long list of customers that have been asking us, as Monica said to do this, and it's overwhelming, right. So we're responding to that. We've got a pipeline of, of customers that we're already beginning to engage on. And so we'll measure our progress based upon adoption, right, and how customers adopt the solution, the shared solution as we go forward. How they're feeding back to us, the value that they're getting, and also encouraging them to engage with us around the roadmap and where we take the solution, right. So I think those are ways that, you know, we'll be focused on adoption and satisfaction around it across the marketplace and the degree of interaction and input we get from customers with respect to the roadmap. And Monica, how do you feel about it? >> Yeah. What's success look like Monica? >> Yeah, look, we all know that technology is a means to an end, right? And the end is solving customer problems, as David said. For us, success will be when we have many, many, many, joined happy customers that are getting benefit from our platform. To me, this is just the beginning of our relationship to help customers. The best is yet to come. I'm super excited, as I said, for many reasons, but specifically, because we know there's a huge demand out there for this integrated solution between Red Hat and Nutanix and we'll start delivering it to our customers. So we've been, we'll be working very closely with our customers to see how that option goes, and we want to delight them with this, with our joint solution. That's our goal. >> Thank you. Well, David, you kind of alluded to it. Customers have been looking forward to this for quiet some time, and number of us have been thinking about this happening and to me, the key, is you're actually putting some real muscle behind it as seen in the engineering resources. And you got to have that type of commitment before you really go forward, otherwise, it's just kind of a yeah a nice press release, nice party deal, this isn't. So congratulations on figuring this out. Good luck. And we'll be really excited to watch your progress. Appreciate you guys coming to theCUBE. Okay. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCube. We'll see you next time. (light, upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2021-Virtual, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2021-Virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host here on theCUBE. We've got Steve Gordon, Director of Product Management, Cloud Platforms at Red Hat. Steve, welcome to theCUBE, good to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Hey John, thanks for having me on, it's great to be back. >> So soon we'll be in real life, I think North America show, this is for the Europe Virtual, I think the North American one might be in person. It's not yet official. We'll hear, but we'll find out, but looking good so far. But thanks for all your collaboration. You guys have been a big part of the CNCF we've been covering on theCUBE, as you know, since the beginning. But, I wanted to get into the Edge conversation that's been going on. And first I want to just get this out there. You guys are sponsoring Edge Day here at KubeCon. I want you to bring that together for us, because this is a big part of what Red Hat's talking about and frankly customers. The Edge is the most explosive growth area. It's got the most complexity, it's crazy. It's got data, it's got everything at the Edge. Everything's happening. How important is Kubernetes to Edge Computing? >> Yeah, it's certainly interesting to be here talking about it now, and having kind of a dedicated Kubernetes Edge Day. I was thinking back earlier, I think it was one of the last in-person KubeCon events I think, if not the last, the San Diego event where there was already kind of a cresting of interest in Edge and kind of topics on the agenda around Edge. And it's just great to see that momentum has continued up to where we are today. And really more and more people not only talking about using Kubernetes for Edge, but actually getting in there and doing it. And I think, when we look at why people are doing that, they're really leaning into some of the things that they saw as strengths of Kubernetes in general, that they're now able to apply to edge computing use cases in terms of what they can actually do in terms of having a common interface to this very powerful platform that you can take to a growing multitude of footprints, be they your public cloud providers, where a lot of people may have started their Kubernetes journey or their own data center, to these edge locations where they're increasingly trying to do processing closer to where they're collecting data, basically. >> You know, when you think about Edge and all the evolution with Cloud Native, what's interesting is Kubernetes is enabling a lot of value. I'd like to get your thoughts. What are you hearing from customers around use cases? I mean, you are doing product management, you've got to document all the features, the wishlist. You have the keys to the kingdom on what's going on over at Red Hat. You know, we're seeing just the amazing connectivity between businesses with hybrid cloud. It's a game changer. Haven't seen this kind of change at this level since the late '80s, early '90s in terms of inflection point impact. This is huge. What are you hearing? >> I think it's really interesting that you use the word connectivity there because one of the first edge computing use cases that I've really been closely involved with and working a lot on, which then grows into the others, is around telecommunications and 5G networking. And the reason we're working with service providers on that adoption of Kubernetes as they build 5G basically as a cloud native platform from the ground up, is they're really leveraging what they've seen with Kubernetes elsewhere and taking that to deliver this connectivity, which is going to be crucial for other use cases. If you think about people whether they're trying to do automotive edge cases, where they're increasingly putting more sensors on the car to make smarter decisions, but also things around the infotainment system using more and more data there as well. If you think about factory edge, all of these use cases build on connectivity as one of the core fundamental things they need. So that's why we've been really zoomed in there with the service providers and our partners, trying to deliver a 5G networking capabilities as fast as we can and the throughput and latency benefits that come with that. >> If you don't mind me asking, I got to just go one step deeper if you don't mind. You mentioned some of these use cases, the connectivity. You know, IoT was the big buzz word, okay IoT. It's an Edge, it's Operational Technology, or it's a dumb endpoint or a node on the network has connectivity. It's got power. It's a purpose built device. It's operating, it's getting surveillance data, whatever the hell it's doing, right. It's got Edge. Now you're bringing in more intelligent, which is an IT kind of thing, state, databases, caching. Is the database too slow? Is it too fast? So again, it brings up more complexity. Can you just talk about how you view that? Because this is what I'm hearing, what do you think? >> Yeah, I agree. I think there's a real spectrum, when we talk about edge computing, both in terms of the footprints and the locations, and the various constraints that each of those imply. And sometimes those strengths can be, as you're talking about as a specially designed board which has a very specific chip on it, has very specific memory and storage constraints or it can be a literal physical constraint in terms of I only have this much space in this location to actually put something, or that space is subject to excess heat or other considerations environmentally. And I think when we look at what we're trying to provide, not just with Kubernetes but also with Linux, is a variety of solutions that can help people no matter where they are along that spectrum of the smallest devices where maybe Red Hat Enterprise Linux, or REL for Edge is suitable to those use cases where maybe there's a little more flexibility in terms of, what are the workloads I might want to run on that in the future? Or how do I want to grow that environment potentially in the future as well? If I want to add nodes, then all of a sudden, the capability that nannies brings can be a more flexible building base for them to start with. >> So with all of these use cases and the changing dynamics and the power dynamics between Operational Technology in IT, which we're kind of riffing on, what should developers take away from that when they're considering their development, whether they just want an app, be app developers, programming the infrastructure or they're tinkering with the underlying, some database work, or if they're under the hood kind of full dev ops? What should developers take into consideration for all these new use cases? >> Yeah, I think one of the key things is that we're trying to minimize the impact to the developer as much as we can. Now of course, with an edge computing use case where you may be designing your application specifically for that board or device, then that's a more challenging proposition. But there's also the case increasingly where that intelligence already exists in the application somewhere, whether it's in the data center or in the cloud, and they're just trying to move it closer to that endpoint, where the actual data is collected. And that's where I think there's a really powerful story in terms of being able to use Kubernetes and OpenShift as that interface that the application developer interacts with but can use that same interface, whether they're running in the cloud maybe for development purposes, but also when they take it to production and it's running somewhere else. >> I got to ask you the AI impact because every conversation I have or everyone I interview that's an expert as a practitioner is usually something along the lines of chief architect of cloud and AI. You're seeing a lot of cloud, SRE, cloud-scale architects meeting and also running the AI piece, especially in industries. So AI as a certain component seems to be resonating from a functional persona standpoint. People who are doing these transformations tend to have cloud and AI responsibility. Is that a fluke or is that just the pattern that's real? >> No, I think that's very real. And I think when you look at AI and machine learning and how it works, it's very data centric in terms of what is the data I'm collecting, sending back to the mothership, maybe in terms of actually training my model. But when I actually go to processing something, I want to make that as close as I can to the actual data collection, so that I can minimize what I'm trying to send back. Particularly, people may not be as cognizant of it, but even today, many times we're talking about sites where that connectivity is actually fairly limited in some of these edge use cases still today. So what you're actually putting over the pipe is something you're still trying to minimize, while trying to advance your business and improve your agility, by making these decisions closer to the edge. >> What's the advantage for Red Hat? Talk about the benefits. What are you guys bringing to the table? Obviously, hybrid cloud is the new shift. Everyone's agreed to that. I mean, pretty much the consensus is public clouds, great, been there, done that. It's out there pumping out as a resource, but now enterprise is goading us to keep stuff on premises, especially when you talk about factories or whatever, on premises, things that they might need, stuff on premise. So it's clear hybrid is happening. Everyone's in agreement. What does Red Hat bring to the table? What's in it for the customer? >> Yeah, I think I would say hybrid is really an evolving at the moment in terms of, I think, Hybrid has kind of gone through this transition where, first of all, it was maybe moving from my data center to public cloud and I'm managing most of those through that transition, and maybe I'm (indistinct) public clouds. And now we're seeing this transition where it's almost that some of that processing is moving back out again closer to the use case of the data. And that's where we really see as an extension of our existing hybrid cloud story, which is simply to say that we're trying to provide a consistent experience and interface for any footprint, any location, basically. And that's where OpenShift is a really powerful platform for doing this. But also, it's got Kubernetes at the heart of it. but it's also worth considering when we look at Kubernetes, is there's this entire Cloud Native ecosystem around it. And that's an increasingly crucial part of why people are making these decisions as well. It's not just Kubernetes itself, but all of those other projects both directly in the CNCF ecosystem itself, but also in that broader CNCF landscape of projects which people can leverage, and even if they don't leverage them today, know they have options out there for when they need to change in the future if they have a new need for their application. >> Yeah, Steve, I totally agree with you. And I want to just get your thoughts on this because I was kind of riffing with Brian Gracely who works at Red Hat on your team. And he was saying that, you know, we were talking about KubeCon + CloudNativeCon as the name of the conference. He's a little bit more CloudNativeCon this year than KubeCon, inferring, implying, and saying that, okay so what about Kubernetes, Kubernetes, Kubernetes? Now it's like, whoa, CloudNative is starting to come to the table, which shows the enablement of Kubernetes. That was our point. The point was, okay, if Kubernetes does its job as creating a lever, some leverage to create value and that's being rendered in CloudNative, and that enterprise is, not the hardcore hyperscalers and/or the early adopters, I call it classic enterprise, are coming in. They're contributing to open source as participants, and they're harvesting the value in creating CloudNative. What's your reaction to that? And can you share your perspective on there's more CloudNative going on than ever before? >> Yeah, I certainly think, you know, we've always thought from the beginning of OpenShift that it was about more than just Linux and Kubernetes and even the container technologies that came before them from the point of view of, to really build a fully operational and useful platform, you need more than just those pieces. That's something that's been core to what we've been trying to build from the beginning. But it's also what you see in the community is people making those decisions as well, as you know, what are these pieces I need, whether it's fairly fundamental infrastructure concerns like logging and monitoring, or whether it's things like trying to enable different applications on top using projects like KubeVert for virtualization, Istio for service mesh and so on. You know, those are all considerations that people have been making gradually. I think what you're seeing now is there's a growing concern in some of these areas within that broad CNCF landscape in terms of, okay, what is the right option for each of these things that I need to build the platform? And certainly, we see our role is to guide customers to those solutions, but it's also great to see that consensus emerging in the communities that we care about, like the CNCF. >> Great stuff. Steve, I got to ask you a final question here. As you guys innovate in the open, I know your roadmaps are all out there in the open. And I got to ask you, product managing is about making decisions about what you what you work on. I know there's a lot of debates. Red Hat has a culture of innovation and engineering, so there's heated arguments, but you guys align at the end of the day. That's kind of the culture. What's top of mind, if someone asks you, "Hey, Steve, bottom line, I'm a Red Hat customer. I'm going full throttle as a hybrid. We're investing. You guys have the cloud platforms, what's in it for me? What's the bottom line?" What do you say? >> Yeah, I think the big thing for us is, you know, I talked about that this is extending the hybrid cloud to the edge. And we're certainly very conscious that we've done a great job at addressing a number of footprints that are core to the way people have done computing today. And now as we move to the edge, that there's a real challenge to go and address more of those footprints. And that's, whether it's delivering OpenShift on a single node of itself, but also working with cloud providers on their edge solutions, as they move further out from the cloud as well. So I think that's really core to the mission is continuing to enable those footprints so that we can be true to that mission of delivering a platform that is consistent across any footprint at any location. And certainly that's core to me. I think the other big trend that we're tracking and really continuing to work on, you know, you talked about AI machine learning, the other other space we really see kind of continuing to develop and certainly relevant in the work with the telecommunications companies I do but also increasingly in the accelerator space where there's really a lot of new and very interesting things happening with hardware and silicon, whether it be kind of FPGAs, EA6, and even the data processing units, lots of things happening in that space that I think are very interesting and going to be key to the next three to five years. >> Yeah, and software needs to run on hardware. Love your tagline there. It sounds like a nice marketing slogan. Any workload, any footprint, any location. (laughs) Hey, DevSecOps, you got to scale it up. So good job. Thank you very much for coming on. Steve Gordon, Director of Product Management, Clout Platforms, Red Hat, Steve, thanks for coming on. >> Thanks, John, really appreciate it. >> Okay, this is theCUBE coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2021 Europe Virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host from theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (serene music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 Special coverage sponsored by AWS Worldwide Public sector Welcome back to the cubes coverage. This is the Cube virtual in our coverage of AWS reinvent with special coverage of the worldwide public sector day. I'm your host, John Firrea. We are the Cube, and I'm joined by Trayvon's hyper scaler partner. Leave with Red Hat. Trey, Welcome to the Cube. >>Thank you. Great to be here, John. Very happy to be at my first virtual reinvent, but probably my third in a row reinvented itself. >>You know, it's super exciting and usually were in person, as you mentioned. But the Cube virtual your virtual. We gotta do it virtual this year, but the game is still the same. It's about learning is about getting updates on what's relevant for customers with the pandemic. A lot of things have been highlighted, and this has been the big fun of reinvent because you mentioned three years. This is our eighth year. We've been there every year since the since the except for the first year, but you just look at the growth right, but it's still the same cadence of more news, more announcements, more higher level services, you know, with with open shift We've been following that with kubernetes and containers Service meshes. You're seeing micro services. All this coming together around open source and public sector is the main benefit of that. Right now, if you look at most interviews that I've done, the mandate for change in public sector is multifold in every vertical education to military, right. So So there's a need to get off your butt and get going with cloud if you're in public sector, um, tell us more about Red hat and the partnership around public sector, because I think that's really what we want to dig into. >>Absolutely. And there definitely have been, uh, changes this year that have inspired innovation. Uh, Red hat native us have been on a path for innovation for quite a while. Red hat in working with the open source community and taking an iterative approach to what we call upstream first, which is essentially, uh, to develop, uh, in the open source communities to mature those into enterprise grade products and then thio iterative Lee, take those findings back to the open source community. So Red Hat and eight of us have had a long history of collaboration. Starting all the way back in 2007 with Red Hat Enterprise Linux being available within the AWS console continue on to things like AWS Quick starts, which are reference architectures for how to deploy products that you're managing yourself on then, More recently, recent being the last say, four years, Uh, Thio offer a open shift managed service within a W s. And now continuing that with a joint offering that's gonna be forthcoming. That's the Red had open shift service on AWS, which will be the first native offering and joint offering with a W s by A by a third party such as ourselves. So there's a history of innovation there in a history of collaboration, and I think we'll talk a little bit later on in the interview specifically about how that relates to public sector and their unique needs. >>Yeah, well, let's just get in there. What are the some of the unique needs? Because there's value in your partnership with AWS. You laid out a bunch of those services, so certainly there's customers that are in need. What specific requirements are there. Can you tell us how Red Hat and A W s work together to meet these challenges? >>Sure. So the public sector group is composed of many organizations and agencies both. When I think of public sector, I think of the federal civilian space. I think about the D. O. D uh, the state and local and education. All of those elements of public sector have different needs. But there are some standards that are very pervasive in the public sector, things like Phipps and how you articulate your compliance with particular validated cryptographic modules or with how you express a control statement using something like the uh minus 853 which is critically important for cloud service offerings. And so those are some of the things that Red Hat native us have a heritage of working together on also providing deep explanations for those organizations and their mission so that they can comfortably move into the cloud, do digital transformation by taking applications that maybe on Prem today and having the confidence to move those into the cloud with security and compliance at the forefront. So when I think about the overall mission of government and then the threats to that mission, whether they be state actors, you know, individuals there are serious. They're serious solutions that have been developed both in the open source community to provide greater visibility into security. And there are things that the government has done to kind of create frameworks for compliance. And those are things that we work with, uh, in the open. So we have, ah, process that we call Compliance is code which can be found both inside of repositories like git Hub. But also on our website, where we articulate how our products actually work with those compliance frameworks, uh, the cryptographic a while authorizations and some of the certifications for technology that the government's put forward. >>So if it's compliance, is code like infrastructure is code, which is Dev Ops. What do you call it? Gov. Dev Ops or Gove ops Compliant ops. It's kind of get a little Dev ops vibe there. I mean, this is a really real question. I mean, you're talking about making compliance, automated. This is what Dev ops is all about, right? And this is this is kind of where it's going. How do you how do you expand more on that? Take a minute to explain. >>Sure. So it's a red hat. Over the last 20 plus years has been doing things that are now called Dev Ops or Dev SEC ops any number of combinations of those words. But the reality is that we've worked in in things like small teams. We've worked to make things like micro services, where you have a very well defined and discreet service that could be scaled up and then that's been incorporated into our products. But not only that, we release those things back Thio the open source community to make the broader Linux platform, for example, the broader kubernetes platform to make those things, uh stronger onto also get more visibility to some of those security items. So that there is a level of trust that you can have in the software supply chain is being created not only with ease, but the things that the customers of building based on these solutions. >>Yeah, that's a good point. Trust and all that compliance is, too. But also when you have that trust, now you have a product you wanna actually deploy it or have customers consume it. Um, it hasn't always been easy trade and cover. You got Fed ramp. I mean, I talked to Teresa cross about this all the time at a W s. You know, there's all kinds of, you know, things. You got hoops you gotta jump through. How are you guys making that? Easier, Because again, that's another concern you got. You guys got a great channel. You got the upstream. First, you've got the open source. Um, you know, enterprises certainly do great. And now you're doing great in public sector. How you guys making it easier for partners to on Ram Pinto. All these Fed programs? >>Yeah. So what I think about the application transformation that organizations are going through we have, especially in the open shift environment. We have what we call the operator framework, which allows operational knowledge to be used as code on. That's gonna be a kind of a running theme for us, but to be able to do these things as code, uh, whether it's things like our compliance operator, which allow you to do testing of a production environment, uh, testing of operational elements of your infrastructure to be able to test them for compliance is Phipps enabled our cryptographic libraries being used, and at what levels are they being used by simply the operating system where they're being used in the kubernetes environment? Are they even being used toe access AWS services? So one of the big things that is important for redhead customers that are moving into the cloud is the depth at which we can leverage the cloud provider services such as the AWS services, but also bring new application services that the customer may be familiar with on Prem, bring those into the environment and then be able to test. So you trust. But you verify on you provide that visibility and ultimately that accountability to the customer that is interested in using your solution in the cloud. And that's what one of those success criterias is gonna bay. >>Yeah, and speed to is a big theme. We're hearing speed agility. I mean, Julie has been talked about all time with Dev ops deficit cops, and you know all these ops automation, but speed deployment. This brings up to the point about we kind of teed up a little bit of the top of the interview, but there's been a big year for disruption, pandemic uncertainty, polarized political environment. Geopolitical. You got stuff in space congestion contention. There you got the edge of the network exploding. So we all new paradigm shifting going on everywhere, right? So, you know, and all the all the turmoil pandemic specifically has been driving a lot of change. How has all this disruption accelerated the public sector cloud journey? Because we were talking earlier, You know, the public sector and didn't have a big I T budget that was never super funded. Like enterprises, they're not flush with cash on board. The motivation was to kind of go slow. Not anymore. Sure anymore, >>I think. Ah, lot of organizations have drawn inspiration from those factors, right? So you have these factors that say that you have a limited budget on that necessity brings out the innovation right, And the especially for government organizations, the the the spirit of the innovation is something that runs deep in the culture. And when faced with those kinds of things, they actually rise to the occasion. And so I think about things like the US Navy's compiled to combat 24 program which were part of and that program is leveraging things like automation, dep, SEC ops and the agile methods to create new capabilities and new software on, as the program name says, it's compiled to combat in 24 hours. So the idea is that you can have software that is created a new capability deployed and in theater, uh, within a short period of time. That's very agile, and it's also ah, very innovative thing, and that's all leveraging red hats portfolio of products. But it's also their vision that and their methodology to actually bring that toe life. So we're very fortunate and very glad to be a part of that and continue to iterating that that way. >>It's nice to be on the road map of the product requirements that are needed now. They're never because the speed is super important and the role of data and all the things that you're doing and open source drives that trade Great to have you on sharing your insight. What? Just a personal question. Hyper scale partner leaders, your title. What does that mean? It means you're going to hyper scales. You're hyper scale who your partner is. Just take a minute to explain what you do it. It's fascinating. It >>definitely means that I'm hyper scale 100% thea Other thing It means we view the cloud service providers as hyper scale er's right. They have capacity on demand pay As you go this very elastic nature to what they do, they offer infrastructure a za service that you can then use for the foundations of your solutions. So as a hyper scale partner leader, what I do is I worked very closely with the AWS team. I actually super long story short. I came from a W S after spending about three years there, so understand it pretty well on, uh, in this particular case, I am working with them to bring the whole portfolio of red hat products, uh, not only onto the cloud for customers to consume in a self directed manner, but also as we build out more of these managed services across application services A i m l A Z you mentioned with things like co vid, uh, there are discrete examples of things like business process, management decision making, that air used in hospitals and inside of, uh, places within the government. You know, uh, that are really wrestling with these decisions. So I'm very pleased with, you know, the relationship that we have with a W s. They're great partner. It's a great opportunity to talk. Especially now it reinvent So these are all really good things and really excited Thio be the hyper scale partner leader. >>That's great that you have that they had the DNA from the best. You know how to do the working backwards stuff. You know, the cultures, both technical cultures. So very customer centric. So nice fit. Thank you for sharing that. And thanks for the insight into, uh, reinvent and red hat. Thank you. >>All right, that was great to be here and look forward to learning a lot. This reinvent >>great. We'll see on the interwebs throughout the next couple of weeks. Trayvon's hyper scale partner manager Really putting in the cloud to Red Hat and customers and public sector. This is our special coverage of the public sector day here at reinvent and ongoing coverage Cube virtual throughout the next couple weeks. John, for your host. Thanks for watching. Yeah,

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of AWS re:Invent 2020. Sponsored by intel, AWS, and our community partners. >> Welcome back to the CUBE's coverage of the AWS re:Invent 2020. Three weeks we're here, covering re:Invent. It's virtual. We're not in person. Normally we are on the floor. Instructing *signal from the noise, but we're virtual. This is theCUBE Virtual. We are theCUBE Virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host. Got a great interview here today. Sathish Balakrishnan, Vice president of hosted platforms for Red Hat joining us. Sathish, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. Great to see you again. >> I wish we were in person, but we're remote because of the pandemic. But it's going to be a lot of action going on, a lot of content. Red Hat's relationship with AWS, and this is a really big story this year, at many levels. One is your relationship with Red Hat, but also the world's evolved. Clearly hybrid cloud's in play. Now you got multiple environments with the edge and other clouds around the corner. This is a huge deal. Hybrids validated multiple environments, including the edge. This is big. On premise in the cloud. What's your new update for your relationship? >> Absolutely, John, yeah. this is so you know, if anything this year has accelerated digital transformation, right The joke that COVID-19 is the biggest digital accelerator, digital transformation accelerator is no joke. I think going back to our relationship with AWS, as you rightly pointed out, we have a very storied and long relationship with AWS, we've been with AWS partnering with AWS since 2007, when we offered the Red Hat Enterprise Linux on AWS since then, you know, we've made a lot of strides, but not in the middle of our products that are layered on AWS, as well as back in 2015, we offered OpenShift dedicated Red Hat OpenShift dedicated, which is our managed offering on AWS, you know, and since then we made a bunch of announcements right around the service broker, and then you know, the operators operator hub, and the operators that AWS has for services to be accessed from Kubernetes. As well as you know, the new exciting joint service that we announced. So you know, by AWS and Red Hat, increasingly, right, our leaders in public cloud and hybrid cloud and are approached by IT decision makers who are looking for guidance or on changing requirements, and they know how they should be doing application development in a very containerized and hybrid cloud world. So you know, excited to be here. And and this is a great event, you know, three week event, but you know, usually we were in Las Vegas, but you know, this week, this year, we will do it on workshop. But you know, nevertheless, the same excitement. And you know, I'm sure there's going to be same set of announcements that are going to come out of this event as well. >> Yeah, we'll keep track of it. Because it's digital. I think it's going to be a whole another user experience personally on the Discovery sites Learning Conference. But that's great stuff. I want to dig into the news, cause I think the relevant story here that you just talked about, I want to dig into the announcement, the new offering that you have with AWS, it's a joint offering, I believe, can you take a minute to explain what was and what's discussed? Cause you guys announced some stuff in May. Now you have OpenShift services. Is it on AWS? Can you take a minute to explain the news here? >> Absolutely John yeah. So I think we had really big announcement in May, you know, the first joint offering with AWS and it is Red Hat open shift service on AWS, it's a joint service with Red Hat and AWS, we're very excited to partner with them, and you know, be on the AWS console. And you know, it's great to be working with AWS engineering team, we've been making a lot of really good strides, it just amplify, as you know, our managed services story. So we are very excited to have that new offering that's going to be completely integrated with AWS console transacted through you know AWS marketplace, but you know, customers will get all the benefit of AWS service, like you know, how just launch it off the console, basically get, you know there and be part of the enterprise discount program and you we're very really excited and you know, that kind of interest has been really, really amazing. So we just announced that, you know, it's in preview we have a lot of customers already in preview, and we have a long list of customers that are waiting to get on this program. So but this offering, right, we have three ways in which you can consume OpenShift on AWS. One is, as I mentioned previously OpenShift dedicated on AWS, which we've had since 2015. Then we have OpenShift container platform, which is our previous self managed offering. And that's been available on AWS, also since 2015. And then, of course, this new service that are that OpenShift servers on AWS. So there's multiple ways in which customers can consume AWS and leverage the power of both OpenShift and AWS. And what I want to do here as well, right, is to take a moment to explain, you know what Red Hat's been doing in managed services, because then it's not very natural for somebody to say, oh, what's the Red Hat doing in managed services? You know, Red Hat believes in choice, right. We are all about try for that it's infrastructure footprint that's public cloud on-prem. It's managed or self managed, that's also tries to be offered to customers. And we've been doing managed services since 2011. That's kind of like a puzzling statement, people will be like, what? And yeah, it is true that we've been doing this since 2011. And in fact, we are one of the, you know, the earliest providers of managed Kubernetes. Since 2015. Right, I think there's only one other provider other than us, who has been doing managed Kubernetes, since then, which is kind of really a testament to the engineering work that Red Hat's been doing in Kubernetes. And, you know, with all that experience, and all the work that we've done upstream and building Kubernetes and making Kubernetes, really the you know, the hybrid cloud platform for the entire IT industry, we are excited to bring this joint offering. So we can bring all the engineering and the management strengths, as well as combined with the AWS infrastructure, and you know and other AWS teams, to bring this offering, because this is really going to help our customers as they move to the cloud. >> That's great insight, thanks for explaining that managed service, cause I was going to ask that question, but you hit it already. But I want to just follow up on that. Can you just do a deeper dive on the offering specifically, on what the customer benefits are here from having this managed service? Because again, you said, You Red Hats get multiple choice consumption vehicles here? What's the benefits? what's under the what's the deep dive? >> Absolutely, absolutely is a really, really good question. right as I mentioned, first thing is choice. like we start with choice customers, if they want, self managed, and they can always get that anywhere in any infrastructure footprint. If they're going to the cloud, most customers tend to think that you know, I'm going to the cloud because I want to consume everything as a service. And that's when all of these services come into play. But before we even get to the customer benefits, there's a lot of advantages to our software product as well. But as a managed service, we are actually customer zero. So we go through this entire iteration, right. And you probably everybody's familiar with, how we take open source projects, and we pull them into enterprise product. But we take it a second step, after we make it an enterprise product, we actually ship it to our multi tenant software system, which is called OpenShift Online, which is publicly available to millions of customers that manage exports on the public Internet, and then all the security challenges that we have to face through and fix, help solidify the product. And then we moved on to our single tenant OpenShift dedicated or you know soon to be the Red Hat OpenShift service on AWS but, you know, pretty much all of Red Hat's mission critical applications, like quedado is a service that's serving like a billion containers, billion containers a month. So that scale is already been felt by the newly shipped product, so that you know, any challenges we have at scale, any challenges, we have security, any box that we have we fix before we really make the product available to all our customers. So that's kind of a really big benefit to just that software in general, with us being a provider of the software. The second thing is, you know, since we are actually now managing customers clusters, we exactly know, you know, when our customers are getting stock, which parts of the stock need to improve. So there's a really good product gap anticipation. So you know, as much as you know, we want still really engage with customers, and we continue to engage with customers, but we can also see the telemetry and the metrics and figure out, you know, what challenges our customers' facing. And how can we improve. Other thing that, you know, helps us with this whole thing is, since we are operators now, and all our customers are really operators of software, it gives us better insights into what the user experience should be, and in how we can do things better. So there's a whole lot of benefits that Red Hat gets out of just being a managed service provider. Because you know, drinking our own champagne really helps us you know, polish the champagne and make it really better for all our customers that are consuming. >> I always love the champagne better than dog food because champagne more taste better. Great, great, great insight. Final question. We only have a couple minutes left, only two minutes left. So take the time to explain the big customer macro trend, which is the on premise to cloud relationship. We know that's happening. It's an operating model on both sides. That's clear as it is in the industry. Everyone knows that. But the managed services piece. So what drives an organization and transition from an on-prem Red Hat cloud to a managed service at Amazon? >> Is a really good question. It does many things. And it really starts with the IT and technology strategy. The customer has, you know, it could be like a digital transformation push from the CEO. It could be a cloud native development from the CPO or it could just be a containerization or cost optimization. So you have to really figure out you know, which one of this and it could be multiple and many customers, it could be all four of them and many customers that's driving the move to the cloud and driving the move to containerization with OpenShift. And also customers are expanding into new businesses, they got to be more agile, they got to basically protect the stuff. Because you know, there are a lot of competitors, you know, that, and b&b and other analogies, you know, how they take on a big hotel chains, it's kind of, you know, customers have to be agile IT is, you know, very strategic in these days, you know, given how everything is digital, and as I pointed out, it has coverts really like the number one digital transformation(mumbles). So, for example, you know, we have BMW is a great customer of ours that uses OpenShift, for all the connected car infrastructure. So they run it out of, you know, their data centers, and, you know, they suddenly want to go to a new geo syn, in Asia, you know, they may not have the speed to go build a data center and do things, so they'll just move to the cloud very easily. And from all our strategy, you know, I think the world is hybrid, I know there's going to be a that single cloud, multi cloud on-pram, it's going to be multiple things that customers have. So they have to really start thinking about what are the compliance requirements? What is the data regulations that they need to comply to? Is that a lift and shift out(mumbles) gistic things? So they need to do cloud native development, as well as containerization to get the speed out of moving to the cloud. And then how are they measuring availability? You know, are they close to the customer? You know, what is the metrics that they have for, you know, speed to the customer, as well, as you know, what databases are they using? So we have a lot of experience with this. Because, you know, this is something that, you know, we've been advocating, you know, for at least eight years now, the open hybrid cloud, a lot of experience with open innovation labs, which is our way of telling customers, it's not just about the technology, but also about how you change processes and how you change other things with people aspects of it, as well as continued adoption programs and a bunch of other programs that Red Hat has been building to help customers with this transformation. >> Yeah, as a speed game. One of the big themes of all my interviews this week, a couple weeks here at reInvent has been speed. And BMW, what a great client. Yeah, shifting into high gear with BMW with OpenShift, you know, little slogan there, you know, free free attribute. >> Thank you, John, >> Shifting the idea, you know, OpenShift. Congratulations, and great announcement. I love the direction always been a big fan of OpenShift. I think with Kubernetes, a couple years ago, when that kind of came together, you saw everything kind of just snap into place with you guys. So congratulations Sathish. Final question. What is the top story that people should take away from you this year? Here at reInvent? What's the number one message that you'd like to share real quick? >> Yeah, I think number one is, you know, we have a Joint Service coming soon with AWS, it is one of it's kind work for us. And for AWS, it's the first time that we are partnering with them at such a deep level. So this is going to really help accelerate our customers' move to the cloud, right to the AWS cloud, and leverage all of AWS services very natively like they would if they were using another container service that's coming out of AWS and it's like a joint service. I'm really, really excited about the service because, you know, we've just seen that interest has been exploding and, you know, we look forward to continuing our collaboration with AWS and working together and you know, helping our customers, you know, move to the cloud as well as cloud native development, containerization and digital transformation in general. >> Congratulations, OpenShift on AWS. big story here, >> I was on AWS. I want to make sure that you know we comply with the brand >> OpenShifts on open shift service, on AWS >> on AWS is a pretty big thing. >> Yeah, and ecosys everyone knows that's a super high distinction on AWS has a certain the highest form of compliment, they have join engineering everything else going on. Congratulations thanks for coming on. >> Thank you John. Great talking to you. >> It's theCUBE virtual coverage we got theCUBE virtual covering reInvent three weeks we got a lot of content, wall to wall coverage, cube virtualization. We have multiple cubes out there with streaming videos, we're doing a lot of similar live all kinds of action. Thanks for watching theCUBE (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of AWS re:Invent 2020. Sponsored by intel, AWS, and our community partners. >> Welcome back to the CUBE's coverage of the AWS re:Invent 2020. Three weeks we're here, covering re:Invent. It's virtual. We're not in person. Normally we are on the floor. Instructing *signal from the noise, but we're virtual. This is theCUBE Virtual. We are theCUBE Virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host. Got a great interview here today. Satish Balakrishnan, Vice president of hosted platforms for Red Hat joining us. Satish, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. Great to see you again. >> I wish we were in person, but we're remote because of the pandemic. But it's going to be a lot of action going on, a lot of content. Red Hat's relationship with AWS, and this is a really big story this year, at many levels. One is your relationship with Red Hat, but also the world's evolved. Clearly hybrid cloud's in play. Now you got multiple environments with the edge and other clouds around the corner. This is a huge deal. Hybrids validated multiple environments, including the edge. This is big. On premise in the cloud. What's your new update for your relationship? >> Absolutely, John, yeah. this is so you know, if anything this year has accelerated digital transformation, right The joke that COVID-19 is the biggest digital accelerator, digital transformation accelerator is no joke. I think going back to our relationship with AWS, as you rightly pointed out, we have a very storied and long relationship with AWS, we've been with AWS partnering with AWS since 2007, when we offered the Red Hat Enterprise Linux on AWS since then, you know, we've made a lot of strides, but not in the middle of our products that are layered on AWS, as well as back in 2015, we offered OpenShift dedicated Red Hat OpenShift dedicated, which is our managed offering on AWS, you know, and since then we made a bunch of announcements right around the service broker, and then you know, the operators operator hub, and the operators that AWS has for services to be accessed from Kubernetes. As well as you know, the new exciting joint service that we announced. So you know, by AWS and Red Hat, increasingly, right, our leaders in public cloud and hybrid cloud and are approached by IT decision makers who are looking for guidance or on changing requirements, and they know how they should be doing application development in a very containerized and hybrid cloud world. So you know, excited to be here. And and this is a great event, you know, three week event, but you know, usually we were in Las Vegas, but you know, this week, this year, we will do it on workshop. But you know, nevertheless, the same excitement. And you know, I'm sure there's going to be same set of announcements that are going to come out of this event as well. >> Yeah, we'll keep track of it. Because it's digital. I think it's going to be a whole another user experience personally on the Discovery sites Learning Conference. But that's great stuff. I want to dig into the news, cause I think the relevant story here that you just talked about, I want to dig into the announcement, the new offering that you have with AWS, it's a joint offering, I believe, can you take a minute to explain what was and what's discussed? Cause you guys announced some stuff in May. Now you have OpenShift services. Is it on AWS? Can you take a minute to explain the news here? >> Absolutely John yeah. So I think we had really big announcement in May, you know, the first joint offering with AWS and it is Red Hat open shift service on AWS, it's a joint service with Red Hat and AWS, we're very excited to partner with them, and you know, be on the AWS console. And you know, it's great to be working with AWS engineering team, we've been making a lot of really good strides, it just amplify, as you know, our managed services story. So we are very excited to have that new offering that's going to be completely integrated with AWS console transacted through you know AWS marketplace, but you know, customers will get all the benefit of AWS service, like you know, how just launch it off the console, basically get, you know there and be part of the enterprise discount program and you we're very really excited and you know, that kind of interest has been really, really amazing. So we just announced that, you know, it's in preview we have a lot of customers already in preview, and we have a long list of customers that are waiting to get on this program. So but this offering, right, we have three ways in which you can consume OpenShift on AWS. One is, as I mentioned previously OpenShift dedicated on AWS, which we've had since 2015. Then we have OpenShift container platform, which is our previous self managed offering. And that's been available on AWS, also since 2015. And then, of course, this new service that are that OpenShift servers on AWS. So there's multiple ways in which customers can consume AWS and leverage the power of both OpenShift and AWS. And what I want to do here as well, right, is to take a moment to explain, you know what Red Hat's been doing in managed services, because then it's not very natural for somebody to say, oh, what's the Red Hat doing in managed services? You know, Red Hat believes in choice, right. We are all about try for that it's infrastructure footprint that's public cloud on-prem. It's managed or self managed, that's also tries to be offered to customers. And we've been doing managed services since 2011. That's kind of like a puzzling statement, people will be like, what? And yeah, it is true that we've been doing this since 2011. And in fact, we are one of the, you know, the earliest providers of managed Kubernetes. Since 2015. Right, I think there's only one other provider other than us, who has been doing managed Kubernetes, since then, which is kind of really a testament to the engineering work that Red Hat's been doing in Kubernetes. And, you know, with all that experience, and all the work that we've done upstream and building Kubernetes and making Kubernetes, really the you know, the hybrid cloud platform for the entire IT industry, we are excited to bring this joint offering. So we can bring all the engineering and the management strengths, as well as combined with the AWS infrastructure, and you know and other AWS teams, to bring this offering, because this is really going to help our customers as they move to the cloud. >> That's great insight, thanks for explaining that managed service, cause I was going to ask that question, but you hit it already. But I want to just follow up on that. Can you just do a deeper dive on the offering specifically, on what the customer benefits are here from having this managed service? Because again, you said, You Red Hats get multiple choice consumption vehicles here? What's the benefits? what's under the what's the deep dive? >> Absolutely, absolutely is a really, really good question. right as I mentioned, first thing is choice. like we start with choice customers, if they want, self managed, and they can always get that anywhere in any infrastructure footprint. If they're going to the cloud, most customers tend to think that you know, I'm going to the cloud because I want to consume everything as a service. And that's when all of these services come into play. But before we even get to the customer benefits, there's a lot of advantages to our software product as well. But as a managed service, we are actually customer zero. So we go through this entire iteration, right. And you probably everybody's familiar with, how we take open source projects, and we pull them into enterprise product. But we take it a second step, after we make it an enterprise product, we actually ship it to our multi tenant software system, which is called OpenShift Online, which is publicly available to millions of customers that manage exports on the public Internet, and then all the security challenges that we have to face through and fix, help solidify the product. And then we moved on to our single tenant OpenShift dedicated or you know soon to be the Red Hat OpenShift service on AWS but, you know, pretty much all of Red Hat's mission critical applications, like quedado is a service that's serving like a billion containers, billion containers a month. So that scale is already been felt by the newly shipped product, so that you know, any challenges we have at scale, any challenges, we have security, any box that we have we fix before we really make the product available to all our customers. So that's kind of a really big benefit to just that software in general, with us being a provider of the software. The second thing is, you know, since we are actually now managing customers clusters, we exactly know, you know, when our customers are getting stock, which parts of the stock need to improve. So there's a really good product gap anticipation. So you know, as much as you know, we want still really engage with customers, and we continue to engage with customers, but we can also see the telemetry and the metrics and figure out, you know, what challenges our customers' facing. And how can we improve. Other thing that, you know, helps us with this whole thing is, since we are operators now, and all our customers are really operators of software, it gives us better insights into what the user experience should be, and in how we can do things better. So there's a whole lot of benefits that Red Hat gets out of just being a managed service provider. Because you know, drinking our own champagne really helps us you know, polish the champagne and make it really better for all our customers that are consuming. >> I always love the champagne better than dog food because champagne more taste better. Great, great, great insight. Final question. We only have a couple minutes left, only two minutes left. So take the time to explain the big customer macro trend, which is the on premise to cloud relationship. We know that's happening. It's an operating model on both sides. That's clear as it is in the industry. Everyone knows that. But the managed services piece. So what drives an organization and transition from an on-prem Red Hat cloud to a managed service at Amazon? >> Is a really good question. It does many things. And it really starts with the IT and technology strategy. The customer has, you know, it could be like a digital transformation push from the CEO. It could be a cloud native development from the CPO or it could just be a containerization or cost optimization. So you have to really figure out you know, which one of this and it could be multiple and many customers, it could be all four of them and many customers that's driving the move to the cloud and driving the move to containerization with OpenShift. And also customers are expanding into new businesses, they got to be more agile, they got to basically protect the stuff. Because you know, there are a lot of competitors, you know, that, and b&b and other analogies, you know, how they take on a big hotel chains, it's kind of, you know, customers have to be agile IT is, you know, very strategic in these days, you know, given how everything is digital, and as I pointed out, it has coverts really like the number one digital transformation(mumbles). So, for example, you know, we have BMW is a great customer of ours that uses OpenShift, for all the connected car infrastructure. So they run it out of, you know, their data centers, and, you know, they suddenly want to go to a new geo syn, in Asia, you know, they may not have the speed to go build a data center and do things, so they'll just move to the cloud very easily. And from all our strategy, you know, I think the world is hybrid, I know there's going to be a that single cloud, multi cloud on-pram, it's going to be multiple things that customers have. So they have to really start thinking about what are the compliance requirements? What is the data regulations that they need to comply to? Is that a lift and shift out(mumbles) gistic things? So they need to do cloud native development, as well as containerization to get the speed out of moving to the cloud. And then how are they measuring availability? You know, are they close to the customer? You know, what is the metrics that they have for, you know, speed to the customer, as well, as you know, what databases are they using? So we have a lot of experience with this. Because, you know, this is something that, you know, we've been advocating, you know, for at least eight years now, the open hybrid cloud, a lot of experience with open innovation labs, which is our way of telling customers, it's not just about the technology, but also about how you change processes and how you change other things with people aspects of it, as well as continued adoption programs and a bunch of other programs that Red Hat has been building to help customers with this transformation. >> Yeah, as a speed game. One of the big themes of all my interviews this week, a couple weeks here at reInvent has been speed. And BMW, what a great client. Yeah, shifting into high gear with BMW with OpenShift, you know, little slogan there, you know, free free attribute. >> Thank you, John, >> Shifting the idea, you know, OpenShift. Congratulations, and great announcement. I love the direction always been a big fan of OpenShift. I think with Kubernetes, a couple years ago, when that kind of came together, you saw everything kind of just snap into place with you guys. So congratulations Satish. Final question. What is the top story that people should take away from you this year? Here at reInvent? What's the number one message that you'd like to share real quick? >> Yeah, I think number one is, you know, we have a Joint Service coming soon with AWS, it is one of it's kind work for us. And for AWS, it's the first time that we are partnering with them at such a deep level. So this is going to really help accelerate our customers' move to the cloud, right to the AWS cloud, and leverage all of AWS services very natively like they would if they were using another container service that's coming out of AWS and it's like a joint service. I'm really, really excited about the service because, you know, we've just seen that interest has been exploding and, you know, we look forward to continuing our collaboration with AWS and working together and you know, helping our customers, you know, move to the cloud as well as cloud native development, containerization and digital transformation in general. >> Congratulations, OpenShift on AWS. big story here, >> I was on AWS. I want to make sure that you know we comply with the brand >> OpenShifts on open shift service, on AWS >> on AWS is a pretty big thing. >> Yeah, and ecosys everyone knows that's a super high distinction on AWS has a certain the highest form of compliment, they have join engineering everything else going on. Congratulations thanks for coming on. >> Thank you John. Great talking to you. >> It's theCUBE virtual coverage we got theCUBE virtual covering reInvent three weeks we got a lot of content, wall to wall coverage, cube virtualization. We have multiple cubes out there with streaming videos, we're doing a lot of similar live all kinds of action. Thanks for watching theCUBE (upbeat music)

>> (upbeat music) >> production: From around the globe, it's the Cube covering Google cloud Next on-Air 20. (Upbeat music) >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman and this is the CUBE coverage of Google cloud Next on Air 20. Of course, the nine week distributed all online program that Google cloud is doing and going to be talking about, of course, multi-cloud, Google of course had a big piece in multi-cloud. When they took what was originally Borg, They built Kubernetes. They made that open source and gave that to the CNCF and one of Google's partners and a leader in that space is of course, Red Hat. Happy to welcome to the program Sathish Balakrishnan, he is the Vice President of hosted platforms at Red Hat. Sathish, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. It's great to be here with you on Google Cloud Native insights. >> Alright. So I, I tied it up, of course, you know, we talk about, you know, the hybrid multicloud and open, you know, two companies. I probably think of the most and that I've probably said the most about the open cloud are Google and Red Hat. So maybe if we could start just, uh, you hosted platforms, help us understand what that is. And, uh, what was the relationship between Red Hat and the Open Shift team and Google cloud? >> Absolutely. Great question. And I think Google has been an amazing partner for us. I think we have a lot of things going on with them upstream in the community. I think, you know, we've been with Google and the Kubernetes project since the beginning and you know, like the second biggest contributor to Kubernetes. So we have great relationships upstream. We also made Red Hat Enterprise Linux as well as Open Shift available on Google. So we have customers using both our offerings as well as our other offerings on Google cloud as well. And more recently with the hosted our offerings. You know, we actually manage Open Shift on multiple clouds. We relaunched our Open Shift dedicated offering on Google cloud back at Red Hat Summit. There's a lot of interest for the offering. We had back offered the offering in 2017 with Open Shift Three and we just relaunched this with Open Shift Four and we received considerable interest for the Google cloud Open Shift dedicated offering. >> Yeah, Sathish maybe it makes sense if we talk about kind of the maturation of open source solutions, managed services has seen really tremendous growth, something we've seen, especially if we were talking about in the cloud space. Maybe if you could just walk us through a little bit out that, you know, what are you hearing from customers? How does Red Hat think about managed solutions? >> Absolutely. Stu, I think it was a good question, right? I think, uh, as we say, the customers are looking at, you know, multiple infrastructure footprints, Be iteither the public cloud or on-prem. They'll start looking at, you know, if I go to the cloud, you know, there's this concept of, I want something to be managed. So what Open Shift is doing is in Open Shift, as you know it's Red Hat's hybrid cloud platform and with Open Shift, all the things that we strive to do is to enable the vision of the Open Hybrid Cloud. Uh, so, but Open Hybrid Cloud, it's all about choice, So we want to make sure the customers have both the managed as well as the self managed option. Uh, so if you really look at it, you know, Red Hat has multiple offerings from a managed standpoint. One as you know, we have Open Shift dedicated, which runs from AWS and Google. And, you know, we just have, as I mentioned earlier. We relaunched our Google service at Red Hat Summit back in May. So that's actually getting a lot of traction. We also have joint offerings with Azure that we announced a couple of years back and, there's a lot of interest for that offering as well as the new offering that we announced post-summit, the Amazon-Red Hat Open Shift, which basically is another native offering that we have on Amazon. If you really look at, having, having spoken about these offerings, if you really look at Red Hat's evolution as a managed service provider in the public cloud, we've been doing this since 2011. You know, that's kind of surprising for a lot of people, but you know, we've been doing Open Shift online, which is kind of a multi-tenant parcel multi-talent CaaS solution 2011. And we are one of the earliest providers of managed kubernetes, you know, along with Google Kubernetes engine GKE, we are our Open Shift dedicated offering back in 2015. So we've been doing Kubernetes managed since, Open Shift 3.1. So that's actually, you know, we have a lot of experience with management of Kubernetes and, you know, the devolution of Open Shift we've now made it available and pretty much all the clouds. So that customers have that exact same experience that they can get any one cloud across all clouds, as well as on-prem. Managed service customers now have a choice of a self managed Open Shift or completely managed Open Shift. >> Yeah. You mentioned the choice and one of the challenges we have right now is there's really the paradox of choice. If you look in the Kubernetes space, you know, there are dozens of offerings. Of course, every cloud provider has their offerings. You know, Google's got GKE, they have Anthos, uh, they, they have management tools around there. You, you talked a bit about the, you know, the experience and all the customers you have, the, you know, there's one of the fighters talks about, there's no compression algorithm for experience. So, you know, what is Red Hat Open Shift? What really differentiates in the market place from, you know, so many of the other offerings, either from the public high providers, some of the new startups, that we should know. >> Yeah. I think that's an interesting question, right? I think all Google traders start with it's complete open source and, you know, we are a complete open source company. So there is no proprietary software that we put into Open Shift. Open Shift, basically, even though it has, you know, OC command, it basically has CPR. So you can actually use native Google networks as you choose on any Google network offering that you have be it GKE, EKS or any of the other things that are out there. So that's why I think there are such things with google networks and providers and Red Hat does not believe in open provider. It completely believes in open source. We have everything that we is open source. From an it standpoint, the value prop for Red Hat has always been the value of the subscription, but we actually make sure that, you know, Google network is taken from an upstream product. It's basically completed productized and available for the enterprise to consume. But that right, when we have the managed offering, we provide a lot more benefits to it, right? The benefits are right. We actually have customer zero for Open Shift. So what does that mean? Right. We will not release Open Shift if we can't run open Shift dedicated or any of their (indistinct) out Open Shift for them is under that Open Shift. Really really well. So you won't get a software version out there. The second thing is we actually run a lot of workloads, but then Red Hat that are dependent on our managed or open shift off. So for example, our billing systems, all of those internal things that are important for Red Hat run on managed Open Shift, for example, managed Open Shift. So those are the important services for Red Hat and we have to make sure that those things are running really, really well. So we provide that second layer of enterprise today. Then having put Open Shift online, out that in public. We have 4 million applications and a million developers that use them. So that means, I've been putting it out there in the internet and, you know, there's security hosts that are constantly being booked that are being plugged in. So that's another benefit that you get from having a product that's a managed service, but it also is something that enterprises can now use it. From an Open Shift standpoint, the real difference is we add a lot of other things on top of google network without compromising the google network safety. That basically helps customers not have to worry about how they're going to get the CIC pipeline or how they have to do a bunch of in Cobra Net as an outside as the inside. Then you have technologies like Store Street Metrics kind of really help customers not to obstruct the way the containerization led from that. So those are some of the benefits that we provide with Open Shift. >> Yeah. So, so, so Sathish, as it's said, there's lots of options when it comes to Kubernetes, even from a Red Hat offering, you've got different competing models there. If I look inside your portfolio, if it's something that I want to put on my infrastructure, if I haven't read the Open Shift container platform, is that significantly different from the managed platform. Maybe give us a little compare contrast, you know. What do I have to do as a customer? Is the code base the same? Can I do, you know, hybrid environments between them and you know, what does that mean? >> It's a smart questions. It's a really, really good question that you asked. So we actually, you know, as I've said, we add a lot of things on top of google network to make it really fast, but do you want to use the cast, you can use the desktop. So one of the things we've found, but you know, what we've done with our managed offering is we actually take Open Shift container platform and we manage that. So we make sure that you get like a completely managed source, you know. They'll be managed, the patching of the worker nodes and other things, which is, again, another difference that we have with the native Cobra Net of services. We actually give plush that admin functionality to customers that basically allows them to choose all the options that they need from an Open Shift container platform. So from a core base, it's exactly the same thing. The only thing is, it's a little bit opinionated. It to start off when we deploy the cluster for the customer and then the customer, if they want, they can choose how to customize it. So what this really does is it takes away any of the challenges the customer may have with like how to install and provision a cluster, which we've already simplified a lot of the open shift, but with the managed the Open Shift, it's actually just a click of it. >> Great. Sathish Well, I've got the trillion dollar question for you. One of the things we've been looking at for years of course, is, you know, what do I keep in my data center? What do I move to the cloud? How do I modernize it? We understand it's a complex and nuanced solution, but you talk to a lot of customers. So I, you know, here in 2020, what's the trends? What are some of the pieces that you're seeing some change and movement that, you know, might not have been the case a year ago? >> I think, you know, this is an interesting question and it's an evolving question, right? And it's something that if you ask like 10 people you'll get real answers, but I'm trying to generalize what I've seen just from all the customer conversations I've been involved. I think one thing is very clear, right? I think that the world is right as much as anybody may want to say that I'm going to go to a single cloud or I'm going to just be on prem. It is inevitable that you're going to basically end up with multiple infrastructure footprint. It's either multicloud or it's on Prem versus a single cloud or on prem versus multiple cloud. So the main thing is that, we've been noticing as, what customers are saying in a whole. How do I make sure that my developers are not confused by all these difference than one? How do I give them a consistent way to develop and build their applications? Not really worry about, what is the infrastructure. What is the footprint that they're actually servicing? So that's kind of really, really important. And in terms of, you know, things that, you know, we've seen customers, you know, I think you always start with compliance requirements and data regulations. Back there you got to figure it out. What compliance do I need? And as the infrastructure or the platform that I'm going to go to meet the compliance requirements that I have, and what are the data regulations? You know, what is the data I'm going to be setting? Is it going to meet the data submitted rules that my country or my geo has? I got to make sure I worry about that. And then I got to figure out if I'm going to basically more to the cloud from the data center or from one cloud to another cloud. I might just be doing a lift or shift. Am I doing a transformation? What is it that I really worry about? In addition to the transformation, they got to figure it out, or I need to do that. Do I not need to do that? And then, you know, we've got to figure out what your data going to set? What your database going to look in? And do you need to connect to some legacy system that you have on prem? Or how do you go? How do you have to figure that out and give them all of these complexities? This is really, really common for any large enterprise that has like an enterprise ID for that multi-cloud. That's basically in multiple geographies, servicing millions of customers. So that has a lot of experience doing all these things. We have open innovation labs, which are really, really awesome experience for customers. Whether they take a small project, they figured out how to change things. Not only learn how to change things from a technology standpoint, but also learn how to culturally change things, because a lot of these things. So it's not just moving from one infrastructure to another, but also learning how to do things differently. Then we have things like the container adoption programmer, which is like, how do you take a big legacy monolith application? How do you containerize it? How do you make it micro services? How do you make sure that you're leveraging the real benefits that you're going to get out of moving to the cloud or moving to a container platform? And then we have a bunch of other things like, how do you get started with Open Shift and all of that? So we've had a lot of experience with like our 2,400 plus customers doing this kind of really heavy workload migration and lifting. So the customers really get the benefits that they see out of Open Shift. >> Yeah. So Sathish, if I think about Google, specifically talking about Google cloud, one of the main reasons we hear customers using Google is to have access to the data services. They have the AI services they have. So how does that tie into what we were just talking about? If I, if I use Open Shift and you know. I'm living in Google cloud, can, can I access all of those cloud native services? Are there any nuances things I need to think about to be able to really unleash that innovation of the platform that I'm tying into? >> Yeah, absolutely not. Right. I think it's a great question. And I think customers are always wondering about. Hey, if I use Open Shift, am I going to be locked out of using the cloud services? And if anything run out as antilock. We want to make sure that you can use the best services that you need for your enterprise, like the strategy as well as for applications. So with that, right. And we've developed the operator framework, which I think Google has been a very early supporter of. They've built a lot of operators around their services. So you can develop those operators to monitor the life cycle of these services, right from Open Shift. So you can actually connect to an AI service if you want. That's absolutely fine. You can connect the database services as well. And you can leverage all of those things while your application runs on Open Shift from Google cloud. Also I think that done us right. We recognize that, when you're talking about the open hybrid cloud, you got to make sure that customers can actually leverage services that are the same across different clouds. So when you can actually leverage the Google services from On Prem as well, if you choose to have localized services. We have a large catalog of operators that we have in our operator hub, as well as in the Red Hat marketplace that you can actually go and leverage from third party, third party ISV, so that you're basically having the same consistent experience if you choose to. But based on the consistent experience, that's not tied to a cloud. You can do that as well. But we would like for customers to use any service that they want, right from Open Shift without any restrictions. >> Yeah. One of the other things we've heard a lot from Google over the last year or so has been, you know, just helping customers, especially for those mission, critical business, critical applications, things like SAP. You talked a bit about databases. What advice would you give customers these days? They're, they're looking at, you know, increasing or moving forward in their cloud journeys. >> I think it sounds as an interesting question because I think customers really have to look at, you know, what is the ID and technology strategy? What are the different initiatives to have? Is it digital transformation? Is it cloud native development? Is it just containerization or they have an overarching theme over? They've got to really figure that out and I'm sure they're looking at it. They know which one is the higher priority when all of them are interrelated and in some ways. They also got to figure out how they going to expand to new business. Because I think as we said, right, ID is basically what is driving personal software is eating the load. Software services are editing them. So you got to figure out, what are your business needs? Do you need to be more agile? Do you need to enter new businesses? You know, those are kind of important things. For example, BMW is a great example, they use Open Shift container platform as well as they use Open Shift dedicated, you know. They are like a hundred hundred plus year old car, guess, you know what they're trying to do. They're actually now becoming connected car infrastructure. That's the main thing that they're trying to build so that they can actually service the cars in any job. So in one shoe, they came from a car manufacturing company to now focus on being a SAS, an Edge and IOT company. If you really look at the cars as like the internet of things on an edge computer and what does that use case require? That use case cannot anymore have just one data center in Munich, they have to basically build a global platform of data centers or they can really easily go to the cloud. And then they need to make sure that that application double close when they're starting to run on multiple clouds, multiple geographies, they have the same abstraction layer so that they can actually apply things fast. Develop fast. They don't have to worry about the infrastructure frequently. And that's basically why they started using Open Shift. And don't know why they're big supporters of Open Shift. And then I think it's the right mission for their use. So I think it really depends on, you know, what the customer is looking for, but irrespective of what they're looking for, I think Open Shift nicely fits in because what it does, is it provides you that commonality across all infrastructure footprints. It gives you all the productivity gains and it allows you to connect to any service that you want anywhere because we are agnostic to that and as well as we bring a whole lot of services from Red Hat marketplace so you can actually leverage your status. >> Well, Sathish Balakrishnan, thank you so much for the updates. Great to hear about the progress you've got with your customers. And thank you for joining us on the Google cloud Next On Air Event. >> Thank you Stu. It's been great talking to you and look forward to seeing you in person one day. >> Alright. I'm Stu Miniman. And thank you as always for watching the Cube. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation hello everybody welcome to the cubes exclusive coverage of IBM thanks 2020 digital event experience the cube covering wall-to-wall we've got a number of interviews planned for you going deep my name is Dave Volante I'm here with stoom in ament's - how you doing doing great Dave so we're socially distant as you can see in the studio and mohab row everybody's you know six feet apart got our masks on took them off for this for this segment so Stu let's get into it so a very interesting time obviously for IBM Arvind Krishna doing the big keynote Jim Whitehurst new president so you got a new leadership a lot of talk about resilience agility and flexibility you know which is kind of interesting obviously a lot of their clients are thinking about kovat 19 in that context iBM is trying to provide solutions and capabilities we're going to get into it but really the linchpin of all this is open shift and RedHat and we're gonna talk about what that means for the vision that Arvind Krishna laid out and let's get into it your your thoughts on think 2020 yeah so Dave of course you know last week we had Red Hat summit so Red Hat is still Red Hat you and I had a nice discussion going into Red Hat summit yes thirty four billion dollar acquisition there now under IBM Jim white her slides over in that new role as president but you know one of the questions we've had fundamentally Dave is does an acquisition like this will it change IBM will it change the cloud landscape openshift and Red Hat are doing quite well we definitely have seen some some of the financials and every audience that hasn't seen your analysis segment of IBM should really go in and see that because the Red Hat of course is one of the bright spots in the financials they're you know good growth rate on the number of customers and what they're doing in cloud and underneath a lot of those announcements you dig down and oh yeah there's openshift and there's Red Hat Enterprise Linux rel so you know I long partner for decades between IBM and Red Hat but is you know how will the IBM scale really help the Red Hat pieces there's a number of announcements underneath you know not just you know how does the entire world work on you know Z and power and all of the IBM platforms but you know I believe it's arvind says one of the enduring platforms needs to be the hybrid cloud and you heard a Red Hat summit the entire week it was the open hybrid cloud was the discussion well yes so that actually is interesting you brought up Arvin's sort of pillars there were three enduring platforms that he cited then the fourth of course is I guess open hybrid cloud but the first was mainframes the second was and I'm not sure this is the right order the second was services and then the third was middleware so basically saying excuse me we have to win the day for the architecture of hybrid cloud what's that mean to you then I'd like to chime in yeah so so Dave first of all you know when when we did our analysis when IBM bought red Hatton says you know my TL DR was does this change the cloud landscape my answer is no if I'm a Amazon I'm not sitting there saying oh geez you know the combination of IBM and Red Hat well they're partners and they're they're gonna be involved in it does IBM have huge opportunities in hybrid cloud multi cloud and edge computing absolutely one of the questions is you know how will I be M services really be transformed you know Dave we've watched over the last decade some of the big service organizations have really shrunk down cloud changed the marginal economics you've done so much discussion of this over the last handful of years that you need to measure yourself against the hyper scalars you need to you know see where you can add value and the question is Dave you know when and where do we think of IBM in the new era well so coming back to sort of your point about RedHat and services is it about cloud is a developer's near-term I've said it's it's more about services than it is about cloud longer-term I think it is about cloud but but IBM's definition of cloud is maybe a little different than 10 hours but when Jeannie when on the roadshow - after the redhead acquisitions you said this is gonna be a creative - free cash flow within one year and the reason why I always believe that is because they were gonna plug Red Hat and we've talked about this an open shift right into their services business and start modernizing applications right away they've actually achieved that so I think they had pretty good visibility and that was kind of a mandate so IBM's huge services organization is in a good position to do that they've got deep industry expertise we heard Arvind Krishna on his keynote talking about that Jim Whitehurst talking more about services you really didn't hear Jim you know previously in his previous roles talk a lot about services other than as part of the ecosystem so it's an interesting balancing act that that iBM has to do the real thing I want to dig into Stu is winning the day with the with with the architecture of hybrid cloud so let's start with with cloud talk about how IBM defines cloud IBM on its earning earnings call we talked about this on our Red Hat Summit analysis the cloud was you know 23 billion you know growing it whatever 20 20 plus percent when my eyes have been bleeding reading IBM financial statements in ten case for the last couple of weeks but when you go in there and you look at what's in that cloud and I shared this on my braking analysis this week a very small portion of that cloud revenue that what last year 21 billion very small portion is actually what they call cloud cloud and cognitive software it's only about 20 percent of the pie it's really services it's about 2/3 services so that is a bit of a concern but at the same time it's their greatest opportunity because they have such depth and services if IBM can increase the percentage of its business that's coming from higher margin software a business which was really the strategy go back 20 years ago it's just as services became this so big it's so pervasive that that software percentage you know maybe it grew maybe it didn't but but that's IBM's opportunities to really drive that that that software based revenues so let's talk about what that looks like how does OpenShift play in that IBM definition of cloud which includes on Prem the IBM public law everybody else's public cloud multi-cloud and the edge yeah well first of all Dave right the question is where does IBM technologies where do they live so you know look even before the Red Hat piece if we looked at IBM systems there's a number of times that you're seeing IBM software living on various public clouds and that it's goodness you know one of the things we've talked about for a number of years is you know how can you become more of a software company how can you move to more of the you know cloud consumption models you go in more op X and capex so IBM had done some of that and Red Hat should be able to help supercharge that when we look at some of the announcements the one that of course caught my other most Dave is the you know IBM cloud satellite would would say the shorthand of it it's IBM's version of outposts and underneath that what is it oh it's open shift underneath there and you know how can I take those pieces and we know open ship can live across you know almost any of the clouds and you know cannot live on the IB cloud IBM cloud absolutely can it be open ship be in the data center and on virtualization whether it be open source or VMware absolutely so satellite being a fundamental component underneath of open ship makes a lot of sense and of course Linux yeah Linux underneath if you look at the the one that we've heard IBM talking about for a while now is cloud packs is really how are they helping customers simplify and build that cloud native stack you start with Red Hat Enterprise Linux you put openshift on top of that and then cloud packs are that simple toolset for whether you're doing data or AI or integration that middleware that you talked about in the past iBM has way the ways that they've done middleware for decades and now they have the wonderful open source to help enable that yeah I mean WebSphere bluemix IBM cloud now but but OpenShift is really that pass layer that that IBM had coveted right and I was talking to some of IBM's partners getting ready for this event and they say if you dig through the 10k cloud packs is one of those that you know there are thousands of customers that are using this so it's good traction not just hey we have this cloud stuff and it's wonderful and we took all of these acquisitions everything from SoftLayer to software pieces but you know cloud packs is you know a nice starter for companies to help really move forward on some of their cloud native application journey yes so what whatever we talked about this past week in the braking analysis and certainly David floor has been on this as well as this notion of being able to run a Red Hat based let's call it a stack everywhere and Jim White has talked about that essentially really whether it's on Prem at the edge in the clouds but the key there stew is being able to do so natively so every layer of you know it began call it the stack IT services the data plane the control plane the management plane all the planes being able to the networking the transport etc being natively able to run wherever it is so that you can take fine-grain advantage and leverage the primitives on respective clouds the advantage that IBM has in my view would love your thoughts on this is that Red Hat based platforms it's open source and so I mean it's somebody gonna trust Amazon to be the the cloud native anybody's cloud yeah you know solution well if you're part of the Amazon stack I mean I Amazon frankly an Oracle have similar kind of mindset you know redstack Amazon stack make it all homogeneous and it'll run just fine IBM's coming at it from an open source perspective so they they in some ways will have more credibility but it's gonna take a lot of investment to really Shepherd those standards they're gonna have to put a lot of commitments in committers and they're gonna have to incent people to actually adhere to those standards yeah I mean David's the idea of pass the platform as a service that we've been chasing as an industry for more than a decade what's interesting if you listen to IBM what's underneath this well it's you know taking advantage of the container based architecture with kubernetes underneath so can I run kubernetes anywhere yeah pretty much every cloud has their own service OpenShift can live everywhere the question is what David floors rightly putting out okay if I bake to a single type of solution can i really take advantage of the native offerings so the discussion we've always had for a long time as dua virtualize something in which case I'm really abstract away I get to you know I can't take advantage of the all various pieces do I do multi cloud in which case I have some least common denominator way of looking at cloud because I what I want to be able to do is get the value in differentiation out of each cloud I use but not be stuck on any cloud and yes Dave Red Hat with openshift and based with kubernetes and the open source community is definitely a leading way to do that what you worry about is saying okay how much is this stuck on containerization will it be able to take advantage of things like serverless you talk to IBM and say okay underneath it's going to have all this wonderful components Dave when I talked to Andy Jesse and he says if I was rebuilding AWS today it would all be service underneath so what is that underlying construct you know is it flexible and can it be updated Red Hat and IBM are going to bridge between the container world and the serverless world with things like a native but absolutely we are not yet at the Nirvana that developers can just build their apps and know that it can run anywhere and take advantage of anything so you know some things we know we need to keep working so a couple other things there so Jim Weider has talked about ingesting innovation that the nature of innovation is such that it comes from a lot of different places open source obviously is a you know fundamental you know component of that he talked about the telco edge he gave an example of Vodafone Arvind Krishna talked about anthem kind of redefining healthcare post kovat so you're seeing some examples of course that's good that IBM puts forth some really you know proof points it's not just you know slide where which is good I think the the interesting thing you know you can't just put you know containers out there and expect the innovation to find its way into those containers it's gonna take a lot of work to make sure that as those different layers of the stack that we were talking about before are actually going to come to fruition so there's there's the there's some other announcements in this regard to these Edgecumbe edge computing application manager let's say the telco edge a lot of automation focused you mentioned IBM satellite there's the financial services cloud so we're seeing IBM actually you know sprinkle around some investments there as I said in my breaking in houses I'd like to see them dial up those investments a little bit more maybe dial down the return of cash at least for the next several years to shareholders yeah I mean Dave the concern you would talk to most customers and you say well if you try to even optimize your own data center and turn it into a cloud how can you take advantage of the innovation that the Amazon Microsoft Google's and IBM's are Tait are putting out there in the world you want to be able to plug into that you want to be able to leverage those those new services so that is where it's definitely a shift Dave you think about IBM over a hundred years usually they're talking about their patent portfolio I I think they've actually opened up a lot of their patent portfolio to help attack you know the kovat 19 so it is definitely a very different message and tenor that I hear under Arvind Krishna you know in very early days than what I was used to for the last decade or two from IBM yeah well at the risk of being a little bit repetitive one of the things that I talked about in my breaking the analysis I highlighted that arvind said he wants to lead with a technical story which I really like Arvin's a technical visionary his predecessors his three predecessors were not considered technical visionaries and so I think that's one of the things that's been lacking inside of IBM I think it's one of the reason why why Services has been such a dominant component so look Lou Gerstner too hard to argue with the performance of the company but when he made the decision and IBM made the decision to go all-in on services something's got to give and what gave and I've said this many many times in the cube was was product leadership so I'd like to see IBM get back to that product leadership and I think Red Hat gives them an opportunity to do that obviously Red Hat Linux you know open source is a leader the leader and this is jump all as we've talked about many times in this multi hybrid cloud edge you know throwing all the buzzwords but there's some interesting horses on the track you got you got VMware we throw in AWS just because they're there you can talk about cloud without talking about AWS certainly Microsoft has designs there Cisco Google everybody wants a piece of that pie and I would say that you know Red Hat with with with OpenShift is in a good position if in fact they can make the investments necessary to build out those stacks yeah it's funny Dave because IBM for the history the size that they are often can get overlooked you talk about you know we've probably spent more air time talking about the VMware Amazon relationship than almost any in the last few years well we forget we were sitting at vmworld and two months before VMware announced the Amazon partnership who was it that was up on the main stage with Pat Gelson der it was IBM because IBM was the first partner I I believe that I saw numbers that IBM was saying that they have more hosted VMware environments than anyone out there I'd love to see the data on it to understand there because you know IBM plays in so many different places they just often are not you know aggregated and counted together you know when you get outside of some of the you know middleware mainframe some of the pieces that you talked about earlier Dave so IBM does have a strong position they just haven't been the front center leader too often but they have a broad portfolio and very much services led so they they kind of get forgotten you know off on the sides so IBM stated strategy is to bring those mission critical workloads into the cloud they've said that 80% of the workloads remain on Prem only 20% have been been clarified you know when you when you peel the onions on that there's just is so much growth and cloud native workloads so you know there's there is a somewhat of a so what in that but I will say this so where are the mission critical workloads where do they live today they live on Prem we can but but but whose stacks are running those it's IBM and it's Oracle and and David floor has done some research that suggests that if you're gonna put stuff into the cloud that's mission-critical you're probably better off staying with those those stacks that are going to allow you to a lower risk move not have to necessarily rip and replace and so you know migrating mission-critical Oracle database into AWS or db2 you know infrastructure into AWS is is gonna be much more challenging than than going same-same into the IBM cloud or the respective Oracle cloud so I guess my question to you Stu is why do people want to move those mission critical workloads into the cloud do they well first of all it's unlocking innovation that you talked about Dave so you know we've looked at from a VMware standpoint versus a red hat standpoint if you talk about building new apps doing containerization having that cloud native mindset do I have a bimodal configuration not so not a word that we talk about as much anymore because I want to be able to modernize it modernizing those applications doing any of those migrations we know or super challenging you know heck David Flair has talked about it for a long long time so you bring up some great points here that you know Microsoft might be the best at meeting customers where they are and giving people a lot of options IBM lines up in many ways in a similar ways my biggest critique about VMware is they don't have tight ties to the application it's mostly you know virtual eyes it or now we have some cloud native pieces but other than the pivotal group they didn't do a lot with modernization on applications IBM with their middleware history Red Hat with everything that they do with the developer communities are well positioned to help customers along those digital journeys and going through those transformations so it's you know applications need to be updated you know if anybody that's used applications that are long in the tooth know that they don't have the features that I want they don't react the way they want heck today Dave everybody needs to be able to access things where they are on the go you know it's not a discussion anymore about you know virtual desktop it's about you know work anywhere have access to the data where I need it and be much more flexible and agile and those are some of the configurations that you know iBM has history and their services arm can help customers move along those journeys yeah so you know I think one of the big challenges iBM has it's got a it's got a its fingers in a lot of pies AI you know they talk a lot about blockchain they're about quantum quantum is not gonna be here for a while it's very cool we have an interview coming up with with Jamie Thomas and you know she's all over the quantum we've talked to her in the past about it but I think you know if you think about IBM's business in terms of services and product you know it's whatever it is a 75 you know billion dollar organization 2/3 or and maybe not quite 2/3 maybe 60 Plus percent is services services are not an R&D intensive business you look at a company like Accenture Stu I think Accenture spent last year 800 million on R&D they're a forty five billion dollar forty six billion dollar company so if you really isolate the IBM you know company to two products whatever its call it 25 30 billion they spend a large portion of that that revenue on R&D to get to the six billion but my argument is it's it's not enough to really drive the type of innovation that they need just another again Accenture data point because they're kind of a gold standard along with IBM you.why and others and and a couple of others in services they return seventy six percent of their cash to shareholders iBM has returned consistently 50 to 60 percent to its shareholders so arvind stated he wants to return IBM to growth you know every every IBM CEO says that Ginni I used to talk about has to shrink to grow as I said unfortunately so you should run out of time and now it's up to Arvind to show that but to me growth has got to come from fueling Rd whether it's organic or inorganic I'd like to see you know organic as the real driver for obvious reasons and I don't think just open source in and of itself obviously is going to attract that it'll attract innovation but whether or not IBM will be able to harness it to his advantage is the real challenge unless they're making huge huge commitments to that open source and in a microcosm you know it's a kind of a proxy we saw what happened to Hortonworks and cloud era because they had to had to fund that open source commitment you know IBM we're talking about much much with the hybrid multi-cloud edge much much bigger opportunity but but requirement and we haven't even talked about AI you know bringing you know I think I think you have a quote on you know data is the fuel what was that quote yes it was Jim Whitehurst he said data is the fuel cloud is the platform AI is accelerant and then security my paraphrase is the mission control there so sounds a lot like your innovation cocktail that you've been talking about for the last year or so Dave but iCloud but so okay but AI is the accelerant and I agree by the way applying AI to all this data that we have you know over the years automating it and scaling it in the cloud it's critical and if IBM wants to define cloud as you know the cloud experience anywhere I'm fine with that I'm not a fan of the way they break down their cloud business I think it's bogus and I've called them on that but okay fine so maybe we'll get by that I'll get over it but but but really that is the opportunity it's just it's got to be funded yeah no Dave absolutely iBM has a lot of really good assets there they've got strong leadership as you said can Arvind do another Satya Nadella transformation there's the culture there's the people and there's the product so you know IBM you know absolutely has a lot of great resources and you know smart people and some really good products out there as well as really good ecosystem partnerships it's you know Amazon is not the enemy to IBM Microsoft is a partner for what they're doing and even Google is somebody that they can work with so you know I always say back in the ten years I've been working for you Dave I think the first time I heard the word coopertition I thought it was like an IBM trademark name because they were the ones that really you know lead as to have a broad portfolio and work with everybody in the ecosystem even though you don't necessarily agree or partner on every piece of what you're doing so in a multi cloud AI you know open ecosystem IBM's got a real shot yeah I mean a Satya Nadella like move would be awesome of course Satya had a much much larger you know of cash hoard to play with but but I guess the similarity stew are you you're notwithstanding that now we have three prominent companies run by Indian native born leaders which is pretty astounding when you think about it but notwithstanding that there are some similarities just in terms of culture and emphasis and getting back to sort of the the technical roots the technical visionaries so I'm encouraged but I'm watching very closely stew as I'm sure you are kind of where those investments go how how it plays in the marketplace but but I think you're right I think people underestimate IBM and and but the combination of IBM Red Hat could be very dangerous yeah Dave how many times do we write the article you know has the sleeping giant of IBM been awoken so I think it's a different era now and absolutely there's IBM has the right cards to be able to play at some of these new tables and it's a different IBM for a different era somebody said to me the other day that and probably you've probably heard this you have to but it was first I heard of it is that within five years IBM had better be a division of Red Hat versus the other way around so all right Stu thanks for for helping to set up the IBM think 2020 digital event experience what coming at you wall-to-wall coverage I think we've got over 40 interviews lined up Stu you you have been doing a great job both last week with the Red Hat summit and helping out with IBM thanks so thanks for that Dave no no rainy week at the new Moscone like we had last year a really good content from the comfort of our remote settings yeah so keep it right there buddy this is Dave a lot a force to Minutemen go to Silicon angle calm you'll check out all the news the the cube net we'll have all of our videos will be running wall-to-wall wiki bong calm has some some of the research action this day Volante force too many we'll be right back right after this short break [Music]

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, it's theCUBE, covering IBM Think brought to you by IBM. >> Hi, there, this is Dave Vellante. We're back at the IBM Think 2020 Digital Event Experience are socially responsible and distant. I'm here in the studios in Marlborough, our team in Palo Alto. We've been going wall to wall coverage of IBM Think, Kit Chee here is the Vice President, and general manager of Cloud and Enterprise sales at Intel. Kit, thanks for coming on. Good to see you. >> Thank you, Dave. Thank you for having me on. >> You're welcome, and Evaristus Mainsah, Mainsah is here. Mainsah, he is the general manager of the IBM Cloud Pack Ecosystem for the IBM Cloud. Evaristus, it's good to see you again. Thank you very much, I appreciate your time. >> Thank you, Dave. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. >> You're welcome, so Kit, let me start with you. How are you guys doing? You know, there's this pandemic, never seen it before. How're things where you are? >> Yeah, so we were quite fortunate. Intel's had an epidemic leadership team. For about 15 years now, we have a team consisting of medical safety and operational professionals, and this same team has, who has navigated as across several other health issues like bad flu, Ebola, Zika and each one and one virus then navigating us at this point with this pandemic. Obviously, our top priority as it would be for IBM is protecting the health and well being of employees while keeping the business running for our customers. The company has taken the following measures to take care of it direct and indirect workforce, Dave and to ensure business continuity throughout the developing situation. They're from areas like work from home policies, keeping hourly workers home and reimbursing for daycare, elderly care, helping with WiFi policies. So that's been what we've been up to Intel's manufacturing and supply chain operations around the world world are working hard to meet demand and we are collaborating with supply pains of our customers and partners globally as well. And more recently, we have about $16 Million to support communities, from frontline health care workers and technology initiatives like online education, telemedicine and compute need to research. So that's what we've been up to date. Pretty much, you know, busy. >> You know, every society that come to you, I have to say my entire career have been in the technology business and you know, sometimes you hear negative toward the big tech but, but I got to say, just as Kit was saying, big tech has really stepped up in this crisis. IBM has been no different and, you know, tech for good and I was actually I'm really proud. How are you doing in New York City? >> Evaristus: No, thank you, Dave, for that, you know, we are, we're doing great and, and our focus has been absolutely the same, so obviously, because we provide services to clients. At a time like this, your clients need you even more, but we need to focus on our employees to make sure that their health and their safety and their well being is protected. And so we've taken this really seriously, and actually, we have two ways of doing this. One of them is just on to purpose as a, as a company, on our clients, but the other is trying to activate the ecosystem because problems of this magnitude require you to work across a broad ecosystem to, to bring forth in a solution that are long lasting, for example, we have a call for code, which where we go out and we ask developers to use their skills and open source technologies to help solve some technical problems. This year, the focus was per AVADA initiatives around computing resources, how you track the Coronavirus and other services that are provided free of charge to our clients. Let me give you a bit more color, so, so IBM recently formed the high performance computing consortium made up of the feYderal government industry and academic leaders focus on providing high performance computing to solve the COVID-19 problem. So we're currently we have 33 members, now we have 27 active products, deploying something like 400 teraflops as our petaflop 400 petaflops of compute to solve the problem. >> Well, it certainly is challenging times, but at the same time, you're both in the, in the sweet spot, which is Cloud. I've talked to a number of CIOs who have said, you know, this is really, we had a cloud strategy before but we're really accelerating our cloud strategy now and, and we see this as sort of a permanent effect. I mean, Kit, you guys, big, big on ecosystem, you, you want frankly, a level playing field, the more optionality that you can give to customers, you know, the better and Cloud is really been exploding and you guys are powering, you know, all the world's Clouds. >> We are, Dave and honestly, that's a huge responsibility that we undertake. Before the pandemic, we saw the market through the lens of four key mega trends and the experiences we are all having currently now deepens our belief in the importance of addressing these mega trends, but specifically, we see marketplace needs around key areas of cloudification of everything below point, the amount of online activities that have spiked just in the last 60 days. It's a testimony of that. Pervasive AI is the second big area that we have seen and we are now resolute on investments in that area, 5G network transformation and the edge build out. Applications run the business and we know enterprise IT faces challenges when deploying applications that require data movement between Clouds and Cloud native technologies like containers and Kubernetes will be key enablers in delivering end to end data analytics, AI, machine learning and other critical workloads and Cloud environments at the edge. Pairing Intel's data centric portfolio, including Intel's obtain SSPs with Red Hat, Openshift, and IBM Cloud Paks, enterprise can now break through storage bottlenecks and have unconstrained data availability in the hybrid and multicloud environments, so we're pretty happy with the progress we're making that together with IBM. >> Yeah, Evaristus, I mean, you guys are making some big bets. I've, you know, written and discussed in my breaking analysis, I think a lot of people misunderstand IBM Cloud, Ginni Rometty arm and a bow said, hey, you know, we're after only 20% of the workloads are in cloud, we're going after the really difficult to move workloads and the hybrid workloads, that's really the fourth foundation that Arvin you know, talks about, that you and IBM has built, you know, your mainframes, you have middleware services, and in hybrid Cloud is really that fourth sort of platform that you're building out, but you're making some bets in AI. You got other services in the Cloud like, like blockchain, you know, quantum, we've been having really interesting discussions around quantum, so I wonder if you can talk a little bit about sort of where you're allocating resources, some of the big bets that, that you're making for the next decade. >> Well, thank you very much, Dave, for that. I think what we're seeing with clients is that there's increasing focus on and, and really an acceptance, that the best way to take advantage of the Cloud is through a hybrid cloud strategy, infused with data, so it's not just the Cloud itself, but actually what you need to do to data in order to make sure that you can really, truly transform yourself digitally, to enable you to, to improve your operations, and in use your data to improve the way that you work and improve the way that you serve your clients. And what we see is and you see studies out there that say that if you adopt a hybrid cloud strategy, instead of 2.5 times more effective than a public cloud only strategy, and Why is that? Well, you get thi6ngs such as you know, the opportunity to move your application, the extent to which you move your applications to the Cloud. You get things such as you know, reduction in, in, in risk, you, you get a more flexible architecture, especially if you focus on open certification, reduction and certification reduction, some of the tools that you use, and so we see clients looking at that. The other thing that's really important, especially in this moment is business agility, and resilience. Our business agility says that if my customers used to come in, now, they can't come in anymore, because we need them to stay at home, we still need to figure out a way to serve them and we write our applications quickly enough in order to serve this new client, service client in a new way. And well, if your applications haven't been modernized, even if you've moved to the Cloud, you don't have the opportunity to do that and so many clients that have made that transformation, figure out they're much more agile, they can move more easily in this environment, and we're seeing the whole for clients saying yes, I do need to move to the Cloud, but I need somebody to help improve my business agility, so that I can transform, I can change with the needs of my clients, and with the demands of competition and this leads you then to, you know, what sort of platform do you need to enable you to do this, it's something that's open, so that you can write that application once you can run it anywhere, which is why I think the IBM position with our ecosystem and Red Hat with this open container Kubernetes environment that allows you to write application once and deploy it anywhere, is really important for clients in this environment, especially, and the Cloud Paks which is developed, which I, you know, General Manager of the Cloud Pak Ecosystem, the logic of the Cloud Paks is exactly that you'll want plans and want to modernize one, write the applications that are cloud native so that they can react more quickly to market conditions, they can react more quickly to what the clients need and they, but if they do so, they're not unlocked in a specific infrastructure that keeps them away from some of the technologies that may be available in other Clouds. So we have talked about it blockchain, we've got, you know, Watson AI, AI technologies, which is available on our Cloud. We've got the weather, company assets, those are key asset for, for many, many clients, because weather influences more than we realize, so, but if you are locked in a Cloud that didn't give you access to any of those, because you hadn't written on the same platform, you know, that's not something that you you want to support. So Red Hat's platform, which is our platform, which is open, allows you to write your application once and deploy it anyways, particularly our customers in this particular environment together with the data pieces that come on top of that, so that you can scale, scale, because, you know, you've got six people, but you need 600 of them. How do you scale them or they can use data and AI in it? >> Okay, this must be music to your ears, this whole notion of you know, multicloud because, you know, Intel's pervasive and so, because the more Clouds that are out there, the better for you, better for your customers, as I said before, the more optionality. Can you6 talk a little bit about the rela6tionship today between IBM and Intel because it's obviously evolved over the years, PC, servers, you know, other collaboration, nearly the Cloud is, you know, the latest 6and probably the most rel6evant, you know, part of your, your collaboration, but, but talk more about what that's like you guys are doing together that's, that'6s interesting and relevant. >> You know, IBM and Intel have had a very rich history of collaboration starting with the invention of the PC. So for those of us who may take a PC for granted, that was an invention over 40 years ago, between the two companies, all the way to optimizing leadership, IBM software like BB2 to run the best on Intel's data center products today, right? But what's more germane today is the Red Hat piece of the study and how that plays into a partnership with IBM going forward, Intel was one of Red Hat's earliest investors back in 1998, again, something that most people may not realize that we were in early investment with Red Hat. And we've been a longtime pioneer of open source. In fact, Levin Shenoy, Intel's Executive Vice President of Data Platforms Group was part of COBOL Commies pick up a Red Hat summit just last week, you should definitely go listen to that session, but in summary, together Intel and Red Hat have made commercial open source viable and enterprise and worldwide competing globally. Basically, now we've65 used by nearly every vertical and horizontal industr6y. We are bringing our customers choice, scalability and speed of innovation for key technologies today, such as security, Telco, NFV, and containers, or even at ease and most recently Red Hat Openshift. We're very excited to see IBM Cloud Packs, for example, standardized on top of Openshift as that builds the foundation for IBM chapter two, and allows for Intel's value to scale to the Cloud packs and ultimately IBM customers. Intel began partnering with IBM on what is now called Pax over two years ago and we 6are committed to that success and scaling that, try ecosystem, hardware partners, ISVs and our channel. >> Yeah, so theCUBE by the way, covered Red Hat summit last week, Steve Minima and I did a detailed analysis. It was awesome, like if we do say so ourselves, but awesome in the sense of, it allowed us to really sort of unpack what's going on at Red Hat and what's happening at IBM. Evaristus, so I want to come back to you on this Cloud Pack, you got, it's, it's the kind of brand that you guys have, you got Cloud Packs all over the place, you got Cloud Packs for applications, data, integration, automation, multicloud management, what do we need to know about Cloud pack? What are the relevant components there? >> Evaristus: I think the key components is so this is think of this as you know, software that is designed that is Cloud native is designed for specific core use cases and it's built on Red Hat Enterprise Linux with Red Hat Openshift container Kubernetes environment, and then on top of that, so you get a set of common services that look right across all of them and then on top of that, you've got specific both open source and IBM software that deals with specific plant situations. So if you're dealing with applications, for example, the open source and IBM software would be the run times that you need to write and, and to blow applications to have setups. If you're dealing with data, then you've got Cloud Pack to data. The foundation is still Red Hat Enterprise Linux sitting on top of with Red Hat Openshift container Kubernetes environment sitting on top of that providing you with a set of common services and then you'll get a combination of IBM zone open, so IBM software as well as open source will have third party software that sits on top of that, as well as all of our AI infrastructure that sits on top of that and machine learning, to enable you to do everything that you need to do, data to get insights updates, you've got automation to speed up and to enable us to do work more efficiently, more effectively, to make your smart workers better, to make management easier, to help management manage work and processes, and then you've got multicloud management that allows you to see from a single pane, all of your applications that you've deployed in the different Cloud, because the idea here, of course, is that not all sitting in the same Cloud. Some of it is on prem, some of it is in other Cloud, and you want to be able to see and deploy applications across all of those. And then you've got the Cloud Pack to security, which has a combination of third party offerings, as well as ISV offerings, as well as AI offerings. Again, the structure is the same, REL, Red Hat Openshift and then you've got the software that enables you to manage all aspects of security and to deal with incidents when, when they arise. So that gives you data applications and then there's integration, as every time you start writing an application, you need to integrate, you need to access data security from someplace, you need to bring two pipes together for them to communicate and we use a Cloud Pack for integration to allow us to do that. You can open up API's and expose those API so others writing application and gain access to those API's. And again, this idea of resilience, this idea of agility, so you can make changes and you can adapt data things about it. So that's what the Cloud Pack provides for you and Intel has been an absolutely fantastic partner for us. One of the things that we do with Intel, of course, is to, to work on the reference architectures to help our certification program for our hardware OEMs so that we can scale that process, get many more OEMs adopt and be ready for the Cloud Packs and then we work with them on some of the ISV partners and then right up front. >> Got it, let's talk about the edge. Kity, you mentioned 5G. I mean it's a really exciting time, (laughs) You got windmills, you got autonomous vehicles, you got factories, you got to ship, you know, shipping containers. I mean, everything's getting instrumented, data everywhere and so I'm interested in, let's start with Intel's point of view on the edge, how that's going to evolve, you know what it means to Cloud. >> You know, Dave, it's, its definitely the future and we're excited to partner with IBM here. In addition to enterprise edge, the communication service providers think of the Telcos and take advantage of running standardized open software at the Telco edge, enabling a range of new workloads via scalable services, something that, you know, didn't happen in the past, right? Earlier this year, Intel announced a new C on second generation, scalable, atom based processes targeting the 5G radio access network, so this is a new area for us, in terms of investments going to 5G ran by deploying these new technologies, with Cloud native platforms like Red Hat Openshift and IBM Cloud Packs, comm service providers can now make full use of their network investments and bring new services such as Artificial Intelligence, augmented reality, virtual reality and gaming to the market. We've only touched the surface as it comes to 5G and Telco but IBM Red Hat and Intel compute together that I would say, you know, this space is super, super interesting, as more developed with just getting started. >> Evaristus, what do you think this means for Cloud and how that will evolve? Is this sort of a new Cloud that will form at the edge? Obviously, a lot of data is going to stay at the edge, probably new architectures are going to emerge and again, to me, it's all about data, you can create more data, push more data back to the Cloud, so you can model it. Some of the data is going to have to be done in real time at the edge, but it just really extends the network to new horizons. >> Evaristus: It does exactly that, Dave and we think of it and which is why I thought it will impact the same, right? You wouldn't be surprised to see that the platform is based on open containers and that Kubernetes is container environment provided by Red Hat and so whether your data ends up living at the edge or your data lives in a private data center, or it lives in some public Cloud, and how it flows between all of them. We want to make it easy for our clients to be able to do that. So this is very exciting for us. We just announced IBM Edge Application Manager that allows you to basically deploy and manage applications at endpoints of all these devices. So we're not talking about 2030, we're talking about thousands or hundreds of thousands. And in fact, we're working with, we're getting divided Intel's device onboarding, which will enable us to use that because you can get that and you can onboard devices very, very easily at scale, which if you get that combined with IBM Edge Application Manager, then it helps you onboard the devices and it helps you divide both central devices. So we think this is really important. We see lots of work that moving on the edge devices, many of these devices and endpoints now have sufficient compute to be able to run them, but right now, if they are IoT devices, the data has been transferred to hundreds of miles away to some data center to be processed and enormous pass and then only 1% of that actually is useful, right? 99% of it gets thrown away. Some of that actually has data residency requirements, so you may not be able to move the data to process, so why wouldn't you just process the data where the data is created around your analytics where the data is spread, or you have situations that are disconnected as well. So you can't actually do that. You don't want to stop this still in the supermarket, because there's, you lost connectivity with your data center and so the importance of being able to work offline and IBM Edge Application Manager actually allows you so it's tournament so you can do all of this without using lots of people because it's a process that is all sort or automated, but you can work whether you're connected or you're disconnected, and then you get replication when you get really, really powerful for. >> All right, I think the developer model is going to be really interesting here. There's so many new use cases and applications. Of course, Intel's always had a very strong developer ecosystem. You know, IBM understands the importance of developers. Guys, we've got to wrap up, but I wonder if you could each, maybe start with Kit. Give us your sense as to where you want to see this, this partnership go, what can we expect over the next, you know, two to five years and beyond? >> I think it's just the area of, you know, 5G, and how that plays out in terms of edge build out that we just touched on. I think that's a really interesting space, what Evaristus has said is spot on, you know, the processing, and the analytics at the edge is still fairly nascent today and that's growing. So that's one area, building out the Cloud for the different enterprise applications is the other one and obviously, it's going to be a hybrid world. It's not just a public Cloud world on prem world. So the whole hybrid build out What I call hybrid to DoD zero, it's a policy and so the, the work that both of us need to do IBM and Intel will be critical to ensure that, you know, enterprise IT, it has solutions across the hybrid sector. >> Great. Evaristus, give us the last word, bring us home. >> Evaristus: And I would agree with that as well, Kit. I will say this work that you do around the Intel's market ready solutions, right, where we can bring our ecosystem together to do even more on Edge, some of these use cases, this work that we're doing around blockchain, which I think you know, again, another important piece of work and, and I think what we really need to do is to focus on helping clients because many of them are working through those early cases right now, identify use cases that work and without commitment to open standards, using exactly the same standard across like what you've got on your open retail initiative, which we're going to do, I think is going to be really important to help you out scale, but I wanted to just add one more thing, Dave, if you if you permit me. >> Yeah. >> Evaristus: In this COVID era, one of the things that we've been able to do for customers, which has been really helpful, is providing free technology for 90 days to enable them to work in an offline situation to work away from the office. One example, for example, is the just the ability to transfer files and bandwidth, new bandwidth is an issue because the parents and the kids are all working from home, we have a protocol, IBM Aspera, which will make available customers for 90 days at no cost. You don't need to give us your credit card, just log on and use it to improve the way that you work. So your bandwidth feels as if you are in the office. We have what's an assistant that is now helping clients in more than 18 countries that keep the same thing, basically providing COVID information. So those are all available. There's a slew of offerings that we have. We just want listeners to know that they can go on the IBM website and they can gain those offerings they can deploy and use them now. >> That's huge. I knew about the 90 day program, I didn't realize a sparrow was part of that and that's really important because you're like, Okay, how am I going to get this file there? And so thank you for, for sharing that and guys, great conversation. You know, hopefully next year, we could be face to face even if we still have to be socially distant, but it was really a pleasure having you on. Thanks so much. Stay safe, and good stuff. I appreciate it. >> Evaristus: Thank you very much, Dave. Thank you, Kit. Thank you. >> Thank you, thank you. >> All right, and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for theCUBE, our wall to wall coverage of the IBM Think 2020 Digital Event Experience. We'll be right back right after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> From around the globe, it's theCube with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, and this is the cubes coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020. Of course, this year's event happening digitally, we're talking to Red Hat executives, partners, customers, where they are around the globe, bringing them remotely into this digital event. And really important topic, of course, has been Automation for a long time, I think back to my career automation is something we've been talking about for decades, but even more important in today's age. Happy to welcome back to the program, Tim Kramer with Red Hat, Vice President of Engineering is that I don't have listed view here. But since we last talked to him at Ansible Fest, has been a little expansion in the scope of what you're working on. First of all, welcome back, and tell us what's new in your world? >> All right, thanks a lot. Yeah, there's been rather substantial change in roles. I'm now in charge actually, of all of the engineering within Red Hat. All the development engineering site includes: the middleware teams, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, of course management and automation, the new team that we just brought over from IBM doing Advanced Container Management. I'm basically running the whole thing and OpenShift of course. >> Excellent. Just a few things to keep you busy. Congratulations on that and love your support in the the Boston "Hello World" rella eight shirt that of course we saw last year at summit. I know one of the things being digital is people do miss some of the t-shirts. I know my family was quite fond of the "May The Fourth Be With You" shirts, that Red Hat did one year at summit. Of course, celebrating Star Wars Day, highly celebrated in in the Miniman household. But Tim, let's talk about Ansible. This brings our audience up to speed, what's happening that some of the latest pieces, and of course, it's been one of the great success stories. Ansible was a lot of adoption before the acquisition, but really accelerated over the last few years? >> At Ansible Fest, we talked a lot about technology to come and showed a few demos of the possibilities. What we have done since then is actually bring all of that technology to life and to expand it. One thing that Red Hat has really done is continue to invest heavily in Ansible, to make sure that we can bring new capabilities and new value to the subscription for everyone. Some of the things that have been happening since summit, which of course we are in, and since Ansible Fest, since we last talked was it, the community continues to scale at a really rapid rate. It's almost hard to keep up. And the number of modules that we have had is grown just tremendously. We have well over 3000 modules now that are available, and as customers and partners and also just casual users are looking through that, it's difficult to figure out: what's really supported? What's really rock solid? What can I count on? And what is, maybe sort of that Wild West community, I'm just trying out some stuff with Ansible and see how it goes. We've been focusing on a lot, is a place that you can come to the Ansible automation platform and the hub where you can now get this content and you can rely on the fact that it's going to be certified by partners, tested by partners, they're always keeping up with the latest updates. A great example of this is, let's just take NetApp or F5, or Cisco as good examples, across the various spaces, we absolutely in the Ansible engineering team are not experts on all of the latest changes, the new hardware coming out, the new software upgrades that they're making. And our ability to keep up with that is pretty difficult. We just can't do it, but they sure can. And their customers, and our customers are both demanding that we give them more content, better content, and we need to be able to do it at the rate that our partners want to be able to provide that kind. As an example, normally we were kind of slowing Ansible down and trying to do one release every six months. But if a new piece of software, a new switch or a new disk array or anything comes out in the meantime, all of our customers had to wait for that next six months release, that was not very convenient. And having an expectation that our partners are going to line up on our schedule is, well, That didn't work out so well for them. We've created the certified content. And we now have the goals to have 50 certified partners. Back at first, I think we had three or four. We're now up to 30, our goal is to hit 50. We had about 100 modules that we showed at fest that were certified, we now have over 1200 modules that are certified content. And these are our partners, creating this content and making it stable and secure for everyone to use. >>So that, I think, by far   >> That was the coolest thing that we've done. >> Yeah, it's great to see that progress. Congratulations on the momentum since Ansible Fest. One of the other things talked about that back at that show, we talked about how analytics and automation, how those are going together, how's adoption been? Is this impossibly met? >> Adoption on the analytic side has been... It's been taking off. It was pretty nascent. I can tell you that, that we've grown by about five X there, but we started a little bit small. We had a few customers that signed up early on to do it. I think probably the more impressive thing is that, we have a couple of customers in markets that you would traditionally think, we're not going to get their data, they're more concerned about what we're sharing, but we have a major bank, we have a major manufacturer that have well over 10,000 systems providing data back into Red Hat that allows us then to analyze and provide a bunch of analytics back on their running estate. And I think that's amazing, seeing the big customers that are coming in from Marcus that you might think, we're probably not going to get a lot of uptake has been really exciting to me. >> All right, you talked a bit about how Ansible fits into the ecosystem, of course being at summit, want to understand a bit more how Ansible the latest of how it's fitting into the rest of the Red Hat portfolio. I've got interviews with Stephanie Shiraz, talking about you, Raul and Joe Fitzgerald, talking about ACM, your group I know is heavily involved working on a lot of those pieces. Help us understand how this is kind of a seamless portfolio. >> I think that's one of the most important things that we do within Red Hat team, is that we have to share the sufficiency across all the product groups and make them better and provide an additional enhanced value there. We've done a lot on the RHEL side, probably one of the maybe lesser known thing is that, we've been working really closely on OpenShift. And actually, we have a lot of customers now that really want the Ansible automation hub available on OpenShift as a first-class application. We're doing things, we're writing operators for those so that we can automate the updates and upgrades and back up and all of that important functionality, so that it's really easy, than to manage your Ansible automation hub, running on OpenShift, that's one big thing. And then we're going to integrate that really well into the advanced container management, that the team from IBM that came over is working towards. I have a really close partnership with ACM team to make sure that we can start to not only gather lists of affected systems, but then take that list and do a bunch of automations against it. >> That's one. On the RHEL side, we've done a lot. We introduced at last summit rally, and we talked about having insights as part of that. Since then, we've been adding more and more capabilities into insights, and to enhance that value of the subscription route. We looked at adding in, well, advisor is now what we used to call insights. It's just something that advises you about problems or issues that may be occurring in your URL instances that are running on prem. We've also added in a drift service, so you can tell if your configurations are sort of drifting apart. We've added in a compliance checker, so you can define some kind of a policy or compliance that you want to enforce on all of your running instances, and we make sure that you're still compliant. We also have a vulnerability detector, which you'd kind of expect, so any nasty security issues that come along, we can pop those up and show you right away. And probably some of the... One of the newer things is, we allow you to do patching. And you can do that patching, right from cloud@redhat.com. We also have another new very exciting feature, which is Subscription Watch, also on cloud@redhat.com. And what this allows you to do is to see and manage all of your subscriptions across your entire hybrid estate. From what you're running on prem, to what you're running in any of the public clouds, we can actually track that for you. You can see what kind of usage you have. And then, make better economic decisions for yourself, and then be able to easily expand that usage if you want to, it used to be a little bit more difficult to do that. We're trying to make subscriptions just like as much in the background as possible to make it easier for our customers. >> Tim, one of one of the big changes customers have to go through is moving from, their environment in their data centers, to the leverage of SaaS and managing things that are outside of their control and the public cloud. You've got an engineering development team, and you've got software that went from, mostly going in customers data centers too, you've got SaaS offerings, you're living in the public cloud. Want to understand, what's changing in your world? What advice would you give to other people as to kind of the learnings that Red Hat has had going through those pieces? >> It's actually a kind of a neat story, because after we change to start making a lot of our services that we had just only shipping products on prem into cloud based services, we had to develop this platform to be able to host all of these services. We started with the insights platform, because we already had that running out in the public cloud. So that was the obvious first thing to base everything on. But we had to build out that platform so that it could support all these services, the ones I just talked about, that are with REL are really good examples. Between a policy, compliance drift, all of these different kinds of services that we're offering, we had to build out that set of capabilities and services in what we're calling sort of the cloud@redhat.com platform. What I'm seeing is that a lot of customers are going through some of these same kinds of thoughts. Like they have a myriad, let's say of applications that are running that they're trying to provide back into their their own company. Different divisions of a company, they have things that are running in the cloud, some things that are running on prem, and they want to start to be able to offer a more cohesive set of services, consolidate some of these, share some of the engineering effort that they have across their various teams. This is exactly the journey that we went through to get to cloud@redhat.com. Finding a surprising number of customers that are actually really interested just in that story, about how we did that. One of the things that we've found is, we've been working with the folks at the open innovation labs within Red Hat. And this is one of the transformation stories that they see constantly as well. We've worked with them and shared this, they're a great resource to help customers kind of think through that problem and get them into a new kind of a platform. But it's quite a journey. We've been really focused on the infrastructure and on prem. Moving to the cloud was a big. But I'll tell you it engineering can move so much faster in a SaaS service than it can with on prem software delivery. It's been remarkable how quickly we could get there. >> Tim, one other thing, if I look at Red Hat, you're a global company, most development organizations are highly distributed to begin with. So many companies today are now having to rapidly figure out how do I manage people that are working from home? How do I live in these environments? From an automation tooling, we'd love to hear any advice you have there, as well as just anything else from your engineering experience in your teams that other people might be able to learn from, as they're dealing with today's landscape. >> To be honest, this is a... We have never seen anything like this in our history, with this kind of pandemic that's happening worldwide. It's shifting everything about business. And it has been challenging just within Red Hat engineering for how we can manage the engineers and their expectations and how difficult it can be to work from home. I have amazing stories from my own engineers. I had an engineer who's in Spain and his wife is a nurse. She's on like 18-hour shifts, the hospital comes back, they have to separate, he's got the kids. And because they don't want them to get infected, it's a really, really difficult working situation for a lot of families out there to try to make it through this. One of the things at Red Hat is, we just have to recognize that it's okay to slow things down a little bit. Let our engineers not feel the pressure that they have to do both childcare and school-at-home and caring for sick relatives or sick family, as well as meet all of your deadlines, it's kind of too much. We've been really... We're trying to be very compassionate with our folks letting them know that we have their back, and it's going to be okay as we try to get ourselves through this ridiculously different time that we've never seen anything like this, like I said. From an engineering perspective, I think work-from-home has been, it's okay for some people. If you have a larger home, I think it's a little easier maybe to find a room that you can go into and do your work. For some, no, if they're in an apartment, or you're sharing with a bunch of friends, it's not your workplace. And it can be really challenging to figure out how to work for eight hours a day with sort of a lot of distractions or just feeling confined and it's just been really difficult for anybody that wants to try to get out, you go a little stir-crazy. The good thing I guess is that engineering is naturally lends itself to being able to be remote and work from home. We have an advantage that way, than other industries, which is great. But it's definitely been really challenging for our teams to be able to cope with this and all we can do is just be really understanding. >> Tim, we appreciate the stories, they're definitely everyone's working through some challenging times. Want to give you the final word as to really takeaways as to what should people be watching? What things should people be going back and looking at from an automation standpoint as they leave Red Hat Summit 2020? >> We're just going to continue to work with the community, work with our partners, get more certified content and continue to scale, the best way that we can for all of our users and our customers. That is the key focus. We want to continue automating and providing all of that flexibility. If you want all 4000 modules and a big download, we certainly are... We're going to continue to give you that option. But if you want to be able to start customizing what you download, maybe only relying on certified content, instead of community content, we're going to give you that option now as well, so that you know what you're running. And with the analytics, we're just scratching the surface here. We're getting some great data. It's helping us to develop new ways of insights into how your systems are running. And that'll get very exciting as we go forward. I know that we've seen like a Forex increase already in the amount of insights attached to REL, which is really great, and for now, at least in the hundreds of customers that are using the AI, I think as we show more value there, you'll get a lot more customers to provide some of their data which will allow us then collectively to come up with some really great analytics to help people become more efficient with your automation. >> Well, Tim Kramer, thank you so much for the updates. And thank you to everything your team's doing. And just a reminder to the audience, of course, these communities not only are important technical resources, but many of them you've made friends with over the years. If you need help, reach out to the community. There are so many good stories that can be found amongst these communities helping each other through these challenging times. Much more coverage from Red Hat Summit 2020. I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you as always for watching theCube. 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>> From around the globe, it's the CUBE with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020 brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is the CUBE's coverage of a Red Hat Summit 2020 happening digitally. We're connecting with Red Hat executives, thought leaders, practitioners, wherever they are around the globe, bringing them remotely into this online event. Happy to welcome back to the program, Joe Fernandez, who's the Vice President and General Manager, of Core Cloud Platforms with Red Hat. Joe, thanks so much for joining us. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. Glad to be here. >> All right, so, Joe, you know, Cloud, of course, has been a conversation we've been having for a lot of years. When I went to Red Hat Summit last year, when I went to IBM, I think last year, there was discussion of moving from kind of chapter one, if you will, to chapter two. Some of the labels that we put on things back in the early days, like Hybrid Cloud and Multicloud, they're coming into a little bit clearer picture. So, let's just give a high level, what you're seeing from your customers when they talk about Hybrid and Multicloud environment? What does that mean to your customers? And therefore, how is Red Hat meeting them where they are? >> Yeah, sure. So, Red Hat obviously, serves an enterprise customer base. And what we've seen in that customer base, really since the start and it's really informed our strategy, is the fact that all their applications aren't going to run in one place, right? So they're really employing a hybrid class strategy, a Hybrid and Multicloud strategy, that spans from their data centers out to a public cloud, typically then out to multiple public clouds as their cloud investments grow, as they move more applications. And now, even out to the edge for many of those customers. So that's the newest footprint that we're getting asked about. So really we think of that as the open hybrid cloud. And you know, our goal is really to provide a consistent platform for applications regardless of where they run across all those environments. >> Yeah. Let's get down a second on that because we've had consistency for quite a while. You look at the largest cloud provider out there, they said, hybrid environment, will give you the exact same hardware that we're running in the public cloud of your bet. You know, that in your environment. Of course, Red Hat's a software company. You've lived across lots of platforms. We're going to Red Hat's entire existence. So, you know, where is that consistency needed? How do you, well, think about how Red Hat does things? Maybe the same and a little different than some of the other players that are then, positioning and even repositioning their hybrid story over the last year or so. >> Yeah. So, we're really excited to see a lot of folks in the industry, including all the major public cloud providers are now talking about Hybrid and talking about these types of initiatives that we've been talking about for quite some time. But yeah, it's a little bit different when we talk about Hybrid Cloud, when we talk about Multicloud, we're talking about being able to run not just in one public cloud and then in a non-premise clients that mirrors that cloud. We're really talking about being able to run across multiple clouds. So having that consistency across, running in, say Amazon to Azure to Google, and then carrying that into your on-premise environments, whether that's on Bare Metal, on VMware, on OpenStack, and then, like I said, out out to the edge, right? So that consistency is important for people who are concerned about how their applications are going to operate in these different environments. Because otherwise, they'd have to manage those differences themselves. I'm speaking as part of Red Hat, right? This is what the company was built on, right? In 20 years ago, it was all about Linux bringing consistency for enterprise applications running across x86 hardware, right? So regardless of who your OEM vendor was, as long as you're building to the x86 standard and leveraging Linux as a base, Red Hat Enterprise Linux became that same consistent operating environment for applications, which is important for our software vendors, but also more importantly for customers themselves as they yep those apps into production. >> Yeah, I guess, you know, last question I have for kind of just the landscape out there. We've been talking for a number of years. When you talk to practitioners, they don't get caught up in the labels that we use in the industry. Do they have a cloud strategy? Yes, most companies have a cloud strategy, and if you ask them is their cloud strategy same today, as it was a quarter ago or a year ago, they say, of course not. Everything's changed. We know in today's day and age, what I was doing a month ago is probably very different from what I am doing today. So, I know you've got a survey that was done of enterprise users. I saw it when it came out a month ago. And, you know, some good data in there. So, you know, where are we? And what data do you have to share with us on kind of the customer adoption with (mumbles). >> Yeah, so I think, you know, we put out a survey not too long ago and we started as, I think, over 60% of customers were adopting a hybrid cloud strategy exactly as I described. Thinking about their applications in terms of, in an environment that spans multiple cloud infrastructures, as well as on-premise footprints. And then, you know, going beyond that, we think that number will grow based on what we saw in that survey. That just mirrors the conversations that I've had with customers, that many of us here at Red Hat have been having with those same customers over the years. Because everybody's in a different spot in terms of their transformation efforts, in terms of their adoption of cloud technologies and what it means for their business. So we need to meet customers where they're at, understand that everybody's at a different spot and then make sure that we can help them make that transition. And it's really an evolution, as opposed to , I think, some people in the past might've thought of as a revolution where all the data centers are going to shut down and everything's going to move all at once. And so helping customers evolve. And that transition is really what Red Hat is all about. >> Yeah. And, so often, Joe, when I talk to some of the vendors out there, when you talk about Hybrid, you talk about Multicloud, it's talking about something you mentioned, it's a box, it's a place, it's, you know, the infrastructure discussion. But when I've been having conversations with a lot of your peers of these interviews for Red Hat Summit. We know that, it's the organization and it's the applications that are hugely important as these changes go and happen. So talk a little bit about that. What's happening to the organization? How are you helping the infrastructure team keep up and the app dev team move forward? >> Yeah, so first, I'll start with, that on the technology side, right? One of the things that that has enabled this type of consistency and portability has been sort of the advent of Linux containers as a standard packaging format that can span across all these different (mumbles), right? So we know that Linux runs in all these different footprints and Linux containers, as a portable packaging format, enables that. And then Kubernetes enables customers to orchestrate containers at scale. So that's really what OpenShift is focused on, is delivering an enterprise Kubernetes platform. Again, spanning all these environments that leverages container-based packaging, provides enterprise Kubernetes orchestration and management, to manage in all those environments. What that then also does on the people front is bring infrastructure and operations teams together, right? Because Kubernetes containers represents the agility for both sides, right? Or application developers, it represents the ability to pay their application and all their dependencies. And know that when they run it in one environment, it will be consistent with how it runs in other environments. So eliminating that problem of, works on my machine, but it doesn't work, you know, in prod or what have you. So it brings consistency for developers. Infrastructure teams, it gives them the ability to basically make decisions around where the best places to run these applications without having to think about that from a technology perspective, but really from things that should matter more, like cost and convenience to customers and performance and so forth. So, I think we see those teams coming together. That being said, it is an evolution in people and process and culture. So we've done a lot of work. We launched a global transformation office. We had previously launched a Red Hat open innovation labs and have done a lot of work with our consulting services and our partners as well, to help with, sort of, people in process evolutions that need to occur to adopt these types of technologies as well as, to move towards a more cloud native approach. >> All right. So Joe, what one of the announcements that made it the show, it is talking about how OpenShift is working with virtualization. So, I think back to the earliest container days, there was a discussion of, "oh, you know, Docker and containers, "it kills VM." Or you know, Cloud of course. Some Cloud services run on VMs, other run on containers, they're serverless. So there's a lot of confusion out there as to. >> Yep. >> What happened, we know in IT, no technology ever dies, everything's always additive. It's figuring out the right solutions and the right bet. So, help us understand what Red Hat is doing when it comes to virtualization in OpenShift and Kubernetes and, how is your approach different than some of what we've already seen in the marketplace? >> Yeah, so definitely we've seen just explosive adoption of containers technology, right? Which has driven the OpenShift business and Red Hat's business overall. So, we expect that to continue, right? More applications moving towards that container-based, packaging and deployment model and leveraging Kubernetes and OpenShift to manage those environments. That being said, as you mentioned, virtualization has been around for a really long time, right? And, predominantly, most applications, today, are running virtualized. And so some of them have made the transition to containers or were built a container native from the start. But many more are still running in VM based environments and may never make that switch. So, what we were looking at is, how do we manage this sort of hybrid environment from the application perspective where you have some applications running in containers, other applications running in VMs? We have platforms like Red Hat, OpenStack, Red Hat Virtualization that leveraged the KVM hypervisor and Red Hat Enterprise Linux to serve apps running in a VM based environment. What we did with Kubernetes is, instead, how could we innovate to have convergence on the orchestration and management fund? And we leveraged the fact that, KVM, you know, a chosen hypervisor, is actually a Linux process that can itself be containerized. And so by running the hypervisor in a container, we can then span VMs that could be managed on that same platform as the containers run. So what you have in OpenShift Virtualization is the ability to use Kubernetes to manage containerized workloads, as well as, standard VM based workloads. And these are full VMs. These aren't micro VMs or, you know, things like Firecracker Kata Container. These are standard VMs that could be, well, Windows guests or Linux guests, running inside those VMs. And so it helps you basically, manage that type of environment where you may be moving to containers and more cloud native approach, but those containers need to interact or work with applications that are still in a VM based deployment environment. And we think it's really exciting, we've demoed it at the last Red Hat Summit. We're going to talk about it even more here, in terms of how we're going to bring those products to market and enable customers. >> Okay, yeah, Joe, let me make sure I understand this because as you said, it is a different approach. So, number one, if I'm moving towards a (mumbles) management solution, this is going to fit natively into what I'm doing. It's not taking some of my traditional management tools and saying, "oh, I also get some visibility containers." There's more, you know, here's my Kubernetes solution. And just some of those containers happen to be virtualized. Did I get that piece right? >> Yeah, I think it's more like... so we know that Kubernetes is going to be in in the environment because we know that, yeah, people are moving application workloads to standard Linux containers. But we also know that virtual machines are going to still exist in that environment. So you can think about it as, how would we enable Kubernetes to manage a virtual machine in the same way that it manages a Linux container? And, what we do there, is we actually, put the VM inside the container, right? So because the VM, specifically with (mumbles) is just a Linux process, and that's what a Linux container is. It's a Linux process, right? So you can run the hypervisor, span the virtual machines, inside of containers. But those virtual machines, are just like any other VM that would run in OpenStack or Red Hat Virtualization or what have you. And you could, vSphere for example. So those are traditional virtual machines, that are now being managed in a Kubernetes environment. And what we're seeing is sort of, this evolution of Kubernetes to take on these new types of workloads. VMs is just one example, of something that you can now manage with Kubernetes. >> Okay. And, help me understand what this means to really the app dev in my application portfolio. Because you know, the original promise of virtualization was, I can just stick my application in a VM and I never need to think about it ever again. And well, that was super helpful when windows NT was going end of life. In 2020, we do find that most companies do want to update their applications, and they are talking about, do I refactor them? Do I make them microservices architecture? I don't want to have that iceberg of an application that I'm just dragging along slowly into the new world. So. >> Yeah. >> What is this virtualization integration with Kubernetes? You mean for the AppDev and the applications? >> Yeah, sure, so what we see customers doing, what we see the application development team is doing is modernizing a lot of their existing applications, right? So they're taking traditional monolithic applications or end tier, like the applications that may run in a VM based environment and they're moving them towards more of a distributed architecture leveraging microservices based approach. But that doesn't happen all at once either, right? So, oftentimes what you see is your microservices, are still connected to VM based applications. Or maybe you're breaking down a monolithic application. The core is still running in a VM, but some of those business functions have now been carved out and containerized. So, you're going to end up in a hybrid environment from the application perspective in terms of how these applications are packaged, and deployed. The question is, what does that mean for your deployment architecture? Does it mean you always have to run a virtualization platform and a container platform together? That's how it's done today, right? OpenShift and Kubernetes run on top of vSphere, they run on top of Amazon and Azure and Google bands, and on top of OpenStack. But what if you could actually just run Kubernetes directly on Bare Metal and manage those types of workloads? That's really sort of the idea. A whole bunch of virtualization solution was based on is, let's just merge VMs natively with Kubernetes in the same way that we manage containers. And then, it can facilitate for the application developer. This evolution of apps that are running in one environment towards apps that are running essentially, in a hybrid environment from how they're packaged and deployed. >> Yeah, absolutely, something I've been hearing for the last year or so, that hybrid deployment, pulling apart application, sometimes it's even, the core piece as you said, is on premises and then I might have some of the more transactional pieces happening in the public cloud. So really interesting. So, how long has Red Hat been working on this? My (mumbles), something, you know, I'm familiar with in the CNCF. I believe it has been around for a couple of years. >> Yeah. >> So talk to us about just kind of how long it took to get here and, fully support stateful applications now. What's the overall roadmap look like? >> Yeah, so, so (mumbles) as a open source project was launched more than two years ago now. As you know, Red Hat really drives all of our development upstream in the open source community. So we launched (mumbles) project. We've been collaborating with other vendors and even customers on that. But then, you know, over time we then decided, how do we bring these technologies to market, which technologies make sense to bring the market? So, (mumbles) is the open source project. OpenShift and OpenShift Virtualization, which is what this feature is referred to commercially, is the product that then we would ship and support for running this in production environments. The capabilities, right. So, I think, those have been evolving as well. So, virtual machines have a specific requirements in terms of not only how they're deployed and managed, but how they connect to storage, how they connect networking, how do you do things like fencing and all sorts of live migration and that type of thing. We've been building out those types of capabilities. They're certainly still more to do there. But it's something that we're really excited about, not just from the perspective of running VMs, but just even more broadly from the perspective of how Kubernetes is expanding to take on new workloads, right? Because Kubernetes has moved far beyond just running, cloud native applications, today, you can run stateful services in containers. You can run things like AI and machine learning and analytics and IoT type services. But it hasn't come for free, right? This has come through a lot of hard work in the Kubernetes community, in the various associated communities, the container communities, communities like (mumbles). But it's all kind of trying to leverage that same automation, that same platform to just do more things. The cool thing is, it'll not just be Red Hat talking about it, but you'll see that from a lot of customers that are doing sessions at our summit this year and beyond. Talking about how, what it means to them. >> Yeah, that's great. Always love hearing the practitioner viewpoint. All right, Joe, I want to give you the final word when it comes to this whole space things kind of move pretty fast, but also we remember it when we first saw it. So, tell us what the customers who were kind of walking away from Red Hat Summit 2020 should be looking at and understanding that they might not have thought about if they were looking at Kubernetes, a year or two ago? >> Yeah, I think a couple of things. One is, yeah, Kubernetes and this whole container ecosystem is continuing to evolve, continuing to add capabilities and continue to expand the types of workloads, that it can run. Red Hat is right in the center of it. It's all happening in open source. Red Hat as a leading contributor to Kubernetes and open source in general, is driving a lot of this innovation. We're working with some great customers and partners, other vendors, who are working side by side with us as well. And I think the most important thing is we understand that it's an evolution for customers, right? So this evolution towards moving applications to the public cloud, adopting a hybrid cloud approach. This evolution in terms of expanding the types of workloads, and how you run and manage them. And that approach is something that we've always helped customers do and we're doing that today as they move out towards embracing a cloud native. >> All right, well, Joe Fernandez, thank you so much for the updates. Congratulations on the launch of OpenShift Virtualization. I definitely look forward to talking to some the customers in finding out that helping them along their hybrid cloud journey. All right. Lots more coverage from the CUBE at Red Hat Summit. I'm Stu Miniman ,and thank you for watching the CUBE.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of Red Hat. Summit 2020 Brought to you by Red Hat. >>Hi, I'm Stew Minimum And and this is the Cube's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020 course Digital event This year. We're not together at Mosconi, but we are bringing together many of the speakers thought leaders, customers in this very important ecosystem. Really excited to welcome back to our program. Stephanie Cheers. Who's the vice president and general manager of the Red Hat Enterprise Linux business unit inside of Red Hat. Stephanie. So great to see you have to give you a virtual hug high five year, but you know, always great to see and have you on the program. >>Oh, thank you. So it's great to be here, and this is what together means today. But it's great to be together with you >>again. Here it's limit. >>Yeah, the discussion is you talk on it together apart for for a time we talk in tact. That change is one of the only constants that we have, and there are more changes than ever happening right now. So before we get into kind of your B you talk a little bit about, You know, some of the big changes. There's organizational changes, you know, I know we spoke to you about in 2019 at IBM Think and Red Hat Summit because you've worked for both sides of the equation here, Uh, give us kind of the latest from your standpoint. >>Yes, certainly the leadership changes which have been public now for a couple weeks. Those were a big change >>for for us. I think one of the things that has come through is IBM has really been respecting what red hat is. What? Um, what we do. But also how we do it is very important and valued. And we at red Hat >>believe in it so strongly. We're sticking to what Red Hat does best. Everything is open source. Everything is collaborative. And honestly, I have to say it. It >>feels great as a red Hatter to see Jim in the position he's in at IBM Um, Paul's passion, >>which clearly comes across in his keynotes and >>his passion for how we do have an open source development model. It's great to have them now take over the CEO role for Red hat. So it's it's really exciting times. I think. Last year when we spoke, it was, um it was a bit of a wait and see and see what happens. And I think now the recent announcements really solidify this sort of synergy and partnership that IBM and Red Hat have and what our intentions are in the market. But at Red Hat, we still stay red hat, and we're still driving things the way we always have. And that's great. Feels that >>that that's great. And thank you so much for the update. So when we talk about your business unit that the Red Hat Enterprise, Linux, of course, Rehl, um, you know, I've got a little too much history, you know. I go back when it was, whereas, you know, before well and kind of wash the growth of Linux sto become really, you know, the underlying fabric of so much of what we see out there today for all of businesses, so many companies could not exist if it wasn't for Linux. And in the seven years we've been having the Cube, of course, we've really watched that that moved from Lennox to not only be some of the foundations of what's happening in customer's environments, but also a major piece of cloud and cloud. Native S O. You know, give us that up date as to, you know, here in 2020. You know why? You know Linux has been around for quite a long time, but, you know, it's still is relevant. >>Yeah, so that's it. That's a >>great leader and ties exactly to how we look at well in the red hat sort of entire portfolio. Um, when you look at Lenox of how it evolved, it started out as being a bit of a cheaper alternative to units. But it quickly became, because of the open source way and collaborative way it's developed. It quickly became sort of this springboard for innovation because you have all these incredible innovators collaborating upstream. All of that has fed to a whole different view of what Linux is. Is cloud exists because of Linux is containers are just a different deployment mechanism or Lennox workloads, artificial intelligence. All those APS are built on Linux, so it's become this standardized foundation upon which innovation is done today, And for me, that's the most exciting thing, because it red hat and rail. Our goal is to one. Have it just work right? It has >>to be the standard. And, um well, sometimes that can be misinterpreted. It >>is boring or a commodity. It is anything but a commodity. It's probably one of the most strategic decisions that someone makes. Is which Raoul Distribution? Which Red Hat, which Lennox distribution did they use and that really take real pride that it's built for the enterprise? It's build for security. It's built for resiliency, and all of that build it once deploy anywhere, translates into also using all the innovation, all the container ization capabilities, using it across multiple public clouds. So it's really that combination of having it just work, be the foundation of where you build once and then being able to leverage all the innovation that's coming out of the open source world today. >>Yeah, really interesting points. Stephanie, I think back to when we talked for years about the consumer nation consumers, consumer ization. Excuse me of I t and people thought that therefore, there wouldn't be differentiation, you know, just by white box things and everything will be off the shelf. But if you look at how most companies build things, they really hyper optimize that. I need to build what I need. I need to use the tools that are available, and I need to be able to be agile. You know, I want one of my highlights last year talking to a lot of companies going through their digital transformation and a number of them at Red Hat Summit last year where they talked about both the organization and technology changes that they're making to move faster. And, of course, your portfolio is a big piece of helping them move forward. >>And that's one thing we're seeing that that ability to consume, innovation and get the >>most and extract the most out of what they're running today in their data center. As customers transform and take on this digital transformation, it's not just a technology statement. In most cases, it's an organizational statement as well. And how do you bridge both those and move it forward? It's one thing we focus a lot on right with the open innovation labs, with a lot of customers as well, because it's not just about the technology, it's about the way we work in the way we do things as well. >>Yeah. So, Stephanie, you know, every every year or so I hear it's like, Oh, well, we've got a new way to To the operating system. There was the Jeff just enough operating system for for a while when container ization came out, there was little company named core Os. That was like, Oh, we're going to make a thin version or core OS is now Ah, piece of red hat. Um, so still, with the cloud, there's always, you know, we're going to change the way the operating system it's done. Um, we just love your viewpoint as to, you know, Red Hat has, you know, a few options and kind of a spectrum of offerings. But how do your customers think about the OS these days? And you know, how should we be thinking about rail specifically in that overall spectrum? >>No, it's so that's a great question, too. And we look at >>it as Lennox and Rehl is be one thing that stays the same and helps you get the value out of all the work you've already put in all the development work you've already put in. And make sure that that translates to the future, where everything is changing, how you deploy where you deploy what you deploy. All of that may change, but if you want to get the value out of the work in the development that has been done yesterday, you need something to stay the same. In our view, that's real. We build it with um in mind for the enterprise along lifecycle security support. We build all of that into it so that when you build on a rail monorail kernel, you can take that. If you want to deploy it in a container, you can deploy on Rehl itself. Or if you need orchestration, you can deploy it on open shift. And that's part of the reason why you mentioned Core OS. So we now have a rail core. OS is within open shift 4.0, on beyond, of course. But what we did was we tailor down what is. In reality, it's the same packages. It's the same certification, security, all of that work that we put in. We take the core OS piece of it, what's essential and really optimized for open shift. We build that into an immutable image, and it goes out as part of open shift. It's not available separately because it's really tailored. What we pick the life cycle is all matching open shift, >>and what that does >>is provide you on open shift experience. That's easy to update fully across the board, all the way down to the kernel. But you know, it's the same Lennox that you have in rail, >>and it's that consistency >>of technology that we really strive for. Um, same thing in public Cloud. So when you build an image on Prem on REL, you can take that image up into the public cloud. And no, it's the same level of security and it just will work, you know, part of part of my team. And we take a lot of pride in the fact that it will just work on. And while that >>may not sound super exciting, particularly in days >>like like right now, being dependable and being reliable and knowing that it's secure, all of that is really important when you run your business that those those features or anything but commoditized >>Well, yeah, I think one of the real volumes that customers see with real specifically is there's so much change going on there, and you look at the Linux community, you look at what open shifts doing in the Kubernetes community. There's so much coaches going on red hat packages that make sure that you don't need to think about the almost chaos that's going out there in all of those communities. But you packaged those together. So Stephanie rarely was, of course, one of the highlights of last year's Red Hat Summit. So we'd love to hear you know, if you've got any good customer stories, really, the momentum of relate as you've seen it, you roll out around the world as and then we'll talk about the new updates. You have this. >>Yeah, great. So Rehl eight was a big deal for us last year, as you remember, and partly because not >>only all the features and functions, of course, which we put into it, but also because we really wanted to reposition what the value of an operating system is within a data center and within their innovation future. So we really focus all the features and functions into two buckets. One is about how do we help you with the operating system? Run your business better, more efficiently If the most out of the systems you have in the critical workloads that you run today and how do we use the operating system to help you bridge into the next level of innovation? What's coming down the pipeline? Things like containers. >>And we really wanted to >>make sure that, as we see you know, most customers are looking to how they digitally transform. But of course, no one has the freedom to throw away everything they've done in the past. They want to build upon that and get value out of it. So we really focused on balancing those two things now, as we look at. In fact, one of the commitments we made because we heard it from customers was they wanted a more predictable deployment of our minor releases and our major releases. And we committed, um, at the REHL eight launch that we would be delivery minor releases every six months, major releases every three years, and we have held to that. We delivered 816 months after we delivered eight. And now you saw last week we delivered eight dot too. Um, this is what it means for us to stand by our world and be dependable as an operating system. And the beauty of the subscription with well is that if you're a customer and you're running REL seven, particularly in times right now, it's It's not that easy to get into your data center, perhaps. And so if you don't choose to update to eight now, you can stay on seven until that time works. That's to me. That's part of the beauty and the flexibility of the subscription model. We have course want to continue to bring your new capabilities and new features. But the subscription Our goal is to have a value subscription that you can you can get the most value from No matter when you decide to upgrade or no forward with, uh, with a different releases, we have >>Well, you can go. And congratulations on keeping the releases going on schedule. One of the nice things about open source is we can see the roadmap out there. You've made this Ah, this promise and you're keeping to it. So ah is you said the announcements we made has been talked about in the keynote. So give us a couple of highlights. Says what people to be looking at and looking to learn more when they dig into a thought to >>Yeah, great. So we really wanted to stick with a few key >>messages with it, and they do really tie to How do we help you run your business? And how do we help you grow your business? It's one thing that we announced and what we pivoted to, um, with the eight dot io is we >>really moved to? How do we How do we >>deliver what we called an intelligent OS, which means an OS that helps you bridge the gap and brings more value to you in your data center than you got before? One of the key aspects to this was adding in the capability of red hat insights, and we added insights capability into every single rail subscription that is under current support. So whether or not you moved to relate whether you have real seven, if you have a supported version of real six, all of those had insights added to it, and what insights is is a as a service on cloud at red hat dot com and link up your servers, and >>it will give you insight >>into operational capability. Is it configured correctly is it could be optimized for better performance. Where are you on your C V E updates and what it does is take all that knowledge that Red Hat has from all the support cases and things that we're seeing what's happening in the industry, what we're seeing other customers have, and we can even proactively help customers. The feedback on this capability has been huge. In fact, you'll see in the announcement last week we've added a lot of new capabilities into this specifically For that reason we've had customers, you know, it's like having it's like having more ops people on my team because I'm getting this input in directly from Red Hat for things to look at. And so that, to me, was probably one of the key aspects that, as we look from going to eight into eight dot too, how do we build up that capability? And of course, last week you saw we added a lot to that, and I think now more than ever, we want to make sure that everyone who has a real subscription is getting the most value out of that and I think insights is one of the places where if you have a subscription and, um, you can value or you can get more value from operational help, insights is a place where we want to help you. Um, we everything we had prior we have now bucket sized into a capability and insights called advisor is really about performance, stability and security and doing an analysis for you. We've added a new capabilities around vulnerability, Right. How do you re mediate common vulnerabilities and exposures, compliance aspect, patch aspect policies and drift? Um, kind of all of those we've now bucket it in into that insights capability. So this friends a lot more value to something that we have already seen. Customers say, You know, we didn't expect to get this amount of input and continuous growth because we constantly add new new rules into that engine. And so you know what? What we what we knew yesterday will be what we know tomorrow, and we look forward to sharing with that with everyone >>who has a subscription. So this is >>a place where I think it's ah, it's an important place for folks to look, particularly now because operational efficiency is really key. And security is really we have a lot of capabilities in both. What? Yes, Please, >>please, please, go ahead. Now, >>one other aspect on that that I wanted to mention >>was we also added a capability called subscription watch and subscription Watch helps you get a very simple, clean view of all the subscriptions you have and where they're running. And that was one thing that we saw. Customers say there was friction. And how do I know where my entitlements are? How I'm using them across my entire enterprise Corruption watch can help with that. So, um, this sort of cloud dot red hat dot com capability that we can assist with and is already part of your subscription. These are the kinds of things that we really want to help augment this to make Really intelligent os for the enterprise. >>Yeah. Stuff Stephanie. The comment I was gonna make is there's certain shows that I go to that every year. You go to it, You say Okay, it's a little bit bigger. They announce something. They made some progress on it. What has impressed me most about going to the red Hat show year after year is really the the growth of the of the portfolio, if you will. So when I first started going to it, it was, you know, a lot of the people there were, you know, the hard core Linux people. Um And then, you know, there's some storage people, some networking people is cloud containers really grew. It really blossomed into this really robust ecosystem. Oh, and growth there. So would love just to get your viewpoint on, you know, the skill set because, you know, I'm sure there's plenty of companies out there that are like, Well, you know, I've got some people that are, you know, my limits people, and they do things that aren't there. But, you know, how do you see kind of the skill set and what what Red Hat's doing really permeating more and more of, of companies, day to day activity. >>I think one of the things that I'm >>most proud of is even since last year's all the deeper collaborations we have between the various product lines. Certainly we'll talk with Joe Fitzgerald, and he and I work together very closely. Capabilities like insights. How do we add answerable capabilities directly into real. And what that does is really help. I think in any customer today, skills is probably one of the biggest concerns that they have. How do they grow those skills? How do they help folks grow and learn more and progress into the innovation areas? But clearly they still need their their mission critical applications to run and how do they span that? And I think what we're really trying to do is be able to bring the strength of the portfolio together to help a customer have more flexibility in how they leverage their skills and how they grow their skills. >>Because I think coming back to >>that statement that that you made earlier it's not just about technology. It's about how, if >>you really want to be, have agile, it's about >>how a company has organized. And I think we're hoping that we bring together the strength of the portfolio so that a customer is able todo leverage their organization and leverage their skills and the best way possible. I think another place where we worked hard on eight dot too. Some similar lines of bridging the portfolio was, you know, we announced back in eight dot io. We were putting container ization tools directly in Terrell with build a pod made in scope e 08 dot too. We brought in the newest versions of Scope EO and Build Up. In fact, in tech preview, you get containerized versions of those, and so we're continuing to add. What we are seeing is the container ization is a journey for customers. Many customers just want to deploy a single container on a server. Or they were. They want to deploy a single container in a VM Um, they're not ready for orchestration. We wanted to put the tools in so that a customer could do that on REHL. Get started, get those containers deployed on REHL. Put those tools directly, and we added it to old protocol, which is a tool built for security. It brings that security of SC Lennox and brings that up and adds value at the container level. It's those kinds of things as you see the bridge from well into open shift. How do we help a customer rich? That skill journey as well along that path and I think right now in kubernetes and Containers skills is a is a big, big area of focus, so the more we can help ease that across the portfolio and bring those things together is really important. And I know we're working very closely with the chefs in the, um and the team there in order to help bridge that. >>Excellent. Stephanie, I just want to give you the last word. We talked a lot about the ongoing journey that customers are going through. So give us your final take away as to how customers should be thinking about red hat in general and role specifically as their journey goes forward. >>I think I think one of the things >>we're very proud of here at Red Hat is that we always, particularly in the open source communities with our customers, with our partners, we want to roll up our sleeves and help, and that's we want. So, developer, we wanna work upstream with you. It's one of the things we're very proud of, and now, particularly in this time it's We want to make sure that folks understand we're here to help, and we want to make sure that you're getting the most out of the subscriptions you have, Um, and we help. We help you on that journey both to get the most out of you can out of your data center today. But also be ready for the innovation that you want to consume going forward. And we're collectively working across red Hat in order to make that happen. But it's, um >>even though this is different and it's there the virtual Experience edition of Red Hat Summit. It's >>great to be together and be able to share the whole message. >>Well, Stephanie, the open source community is definitely used to collaborating remotely. So thank you so much for joining us. It's a pleasure to see you. And we would hope to talk again soon. >>Great to see you too. Thank you for the time. >>Alright. You're watching the Cube's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020 digitally with remote guests from around the globe. Instrument a man and thank you for watching the Cube. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah.