(upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone at Supercloud 2 event, live here in Palo Alto, theCUBE Studios live stage performance, virtually syndicating it all over the world. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante here as Cube alumni, and special influencer guest, Howie Xu, VP of Machine Learning and Zscaler, also part-time as a CUBE analyst 'cause he is that good. Comes on all the time. You're basically a CUBE analyst as well. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for inviting me. >> John: Technically, you're not really a CUBE analyst, but you're kind of like a CUBE analyst. >> Happy New Year to everyone. >> Dave: Great to see you. >> Great to see you, Dave and John. >> John: We've been talking about ChatGPT online. You wrote a great post about it being more like Amazon, not like Google. >> Howie: More than just Google Search. >> More than Google Search. Oh, it's going to compete with Google Search, which it kind of does a little bit, but more its infrastructure. So a clever point, good segue into this conversation, because this is kind of the beginning of these kinds of next gen things we're going to see. Things where it's like an obvious next gen, it's getting real. Kind of like seeing the browser for the first time, Mosaic browser. Whoa, this internet thing's real. I think this is that moment and Supercloud like enablement is coming. So this has been a big part of the Supercloud kind of theme. >> Yeah, you talk about Supercloud, you talk about, you know, AI, ChatGPT. I really think the ChatGPT is really another Netscape moment, the browser moment. Because if you think about internet technology, right? It was brewing for 20 years before early 90s. Not until you had a, you know, browser, people realize, "Wow, this is how wonderful this technology could do." Right? You know, all the wonderful things. Then you have Yahoo and Amazon. I think we have brewing, you know, the AI technology for, you know, quite some time. Even then, you know, neural networks, deep learning. But not until ChatGPT came along, people realize, "Wow, you know, the user interface, user experience could be that great," right? So I really think, you know, if you look at the last 30 years, there is a browser moment, there is iPhone moment. I think ChatGPT moment is as big as those. >> Dave: What do you see as the intersection of things like ChatGPT and the Supercloud? Of course, the media's going to focus, journalists are going to focus on all the negatives and the privacy. Okay. You know we're going to get by that, right? Always do. Where do you see the Supercloud and sort of the distributed data fitting in with ChatGPT? Does it use that as a data source? What's the link? >> Howie: I think there are number of use cases. One of the use cases, we talked about why we even have Supercloud because of the complexity, because of the, you know, heterogeneous nature of different clouds. In order for me as a developer, in order for me to create applications, I have so many things to worry about, right? It's a complexity. But with ChatGPT, with the AI, I don't have to worry about it, right? Those kind of details will be taken care of by, you know, the underlying layer. So we have been talking about on this show, you know, over the last, what, year or so about the Supercloud, hey, defining that, you know, API layer spanning across, you know, multiple clouds. I think that will be happening. However, for a lot of the things, that will be more hidden, right? A lot of that will be automated by the bots. You know, we were just talking about it right before the show. One of the profound statement I heard from Adrian Cockcroft about 10 years ago was, "Hey Howie, you know, at Netflix, right? You know, IT is just one API call away." That's a profound statement I heard about a decade ago. I think next decade, right? You know, the IT is just one English language away, right? So when it's one English language away, it's no longer as important, API this, API that. You still need API just like hardware, right? You still need all of those things. That's going to be more hidden. The high level thing will be more, you know, English language or the language, right? Any language for that matter. >> Dave: And so through language, you'll tap services that live across the Supercloud, is what you're saying? >> Howie: You just tell what you want, what you desire, right? You know, the bots will help you to figure out where the complexity is, right? You know, like you said, a lot of criticism about, "Hey, ChatGPT doesn't do this, doesn't do that." But if you think about how to break things down, right? For instance, right, you know, ChatGPT doesn't have Microsoft stock price today, obviously, right? However, you can ask ChatGPT to write a program for you, retrieve the Microsoft stock price, (laughs) and then just run it, right? >> Dave: Yeah. >> So the thing to think about- >> John: It's only going to get better. It's only going to get better. >> The thing people kind of unfairly criticize ChatGPT is it doesn't do this. But can you not break down humans' task into smaller things and get complex things to be done by the ChatGPT? I think we are there already, you know- >> John: That to me is the real game changer. That's the assembly of atomic elements at the top of the stack, whether the interface is voice or some programmatic gesture based thing, you know, wave your hand or- >> Howie: One of the analogy I used in my blog was, you know, each person, each professional now is a quarterback. And we suddenly have, you know, a lot more linebacks or you know, any backs to work for you, right? For free even, right? You know, and then that's sort of, you should think about it. You are the quarterback of your day-to-day job, right? Your job is not to do everything manually yourself. >> Dave: You call the play- >> Yes. >> Dave: And they execute. Do your job. >> Yes, exactly. >> Yeah, all the players are there. All the elves are in the North Pole making the toys, Dave, as we say. But this is the thing, I want to get your point. This change is going to require a new kind of infrastructure software relationship, a new kind of operating runtime, a new kind of assembler, a new kind of loader link things. This very operating systems kind of concepts. >> Data intensive, right? How to process the data, how to, you know, process so gigantic data in parallel, right? That's actually a tough job, right? So if you think about ChatGPT, why OpenAI is ahead of the game, right? You know, Google may not want to acknowledge it, right? It's not necessarily they do, you know, not have enough data scientist, but the software engineering pieces, you know, behind it, right? To train the model, to actually do all those things in parallel, to do all those things in a cost effective way. So I think, you know, a lot of those still- >> Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question because we've had this conversation privately, but I want to do it while we're on stage here. Where are all the alpha geeks and developers and creators and entrepreneurs going to gravitate to? You know, in every wave, you see it in crypto, all the alphas went into crypto. Now I think with ChatGPT, you're going to start to see, like, "Wow, it's that moment." A lot of people are going to, you know, scrum and do startups. CTOs will invent stuff. There's a lot of invention, a lot of computer science and customer requirements to figure out. That's new. Where are the alpha entrepreneurs going to go to? What do you think they're going to gravitate to? If you could point to the next layer to enable this super environment, super app environment, Supercloud. 'Cause there's a lot to do to enable what you just said. >> Howie: Right. You know, if you think about using internet as the analogy, right? You know, in the early 90s, internet came along, browser came along. You had two kind of companies, right? One is Amazon, the other one is walmart.com. And then there were company, like maybe GE or whatnot, right? Really didn't take advantage of internet that much. I think, you know, for entrepreneurs, suddenly created the Yahoo, Amazon of the ChatGPT native era. That's what we should be all excited about. But for most of the Fortune 500 companies, your job is to surviving sort of the big revolution. So you at least need to do your walmart.com sooner than later, right? (laughs) So not be like GE, right? You know, hand waving, hey, I do a lot of the internet, but you know, when you look back last 20, 30 years, what did they do much with leveraging the- >> So you think they're going to jump in, they're going to build service companies or SaaS tech companies or Supercloud companies? >> Howie: Okay, so there are two type of opportunities from that perspective. One is, you know, the OpenAI ish kind of the companies, I think the OpenAI, the game is still open, right? You know, it's really Close AI today. (laughs) >> John: There's room for competition, you mean? >> There's room for competition, right. You know, you can still spend you know, 50, $100 million to build something interesting. You know, there are company like Cohere and so on and so on. There are a bunch of companies, I think there is that. And then there are companies who's going to leverage those sort of the new AI primitives. I think, you know, we have been talking about AI forever, but finally, finally, it's no longer just good, but also super useful. I think, you know, the time is now. >> John: And if you have the cloud behind you, what do you make the Amazon do differently? 'Cause Amazon Web Services is only going to grow with this. It's not going to get smaller. There's more horsepower to handle, there's more needs. >> Howie: Well, Microsoft already showed what's the future, right? You know, you know, yes, there is a kind of the container, you know, the serverless that will continue to grow. But the future is really not about- >> John: Microsoft's shown the future? >> Well, showing that, you know, working with OpenAI, right? >> Oh okay. >> They already said that, you know, we are going to have ChatGPT service. >> $10 billion, I think they're putting it. >> $10 billion putting, and also open up the Open API services, right? You know, I actually made a prediction that Microsoft future hinges on OpenAI. I think, you know- >> John: They believe that $10 billion bet. >> Dave: Yeah. $10 billion bet. So I want to ask you a question. It's somewhat academic, but it's relevant. For a number of years, it looked like having first mover advantage wasn't an advantage. PCs, spreadsheets, the browser, right? Social media, Friendster, right? Mobile. Apple wasn't first to mobile. But that's somewhat changed. The cloud, AWS was first. You could debate whether or not, but AWS okay, they have first mover advantage. Crypto, Bitcoin, first mover advantage. Do you think OpenAI will have first mover advantage? >> It certainly has its advantage today. I think it's year two. I mean, I think the game is still out there, right? You know, we're still in the first inning, early inning of the game. So I don't think that the game is over for the rest of the players, whether the big players or the OpenAI kind of the, sort of competitors. So one of the VCs actually asked me the other day, right? "Hey, how much money do I need to spend, invest, to get, you know, another shot to the OpenAI sort of the level?" You know, I did a- (laughs) >> Line up. >> That's classic VC. "How much does it cost me to replicate?" >> I'm pretty sure he asked the question to a bunch of guys, right? >> Good luck with that. (laughs) >> So we kind of did some napkin- >> What'd you come up with? (laughs) >> $100 million is the order of magnitude that I came up with, right? You know, not a billion, not 10 million, right? So 100 million. >> John: Hundreds of millions. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100 million order of magnitude is what I came up with. You know, we can get into details, you know, in other sort of the time, but- >> Dave: That's actually not that much if you think about it. >> Howie: Exactly. So when he heard me articulating why is that, you know, he's thinking, right? You know, he actually, you know, asked me, "Hey, you know, there's this company. Do you happen to know this company? Can I reach out?" You know, those things. So I truly believe it's not a billion or 10 billion issue, it's more like 100. >> John: And also, your other point about referencing the internet revolution as a good comparable. The other thing there is online user population was a big driver of the growth of that. So what's the equivalent here for online user population for AI? Is it more apps, more users? I mean, we're still early on, it's first inning. >> Yeah. We're kind of the, you know- >> What's the key metric for success of this sector? Do you have a read on that? >> I think the, you know, the number of users is a good metrics, but I think it's going to be a lot of people are going to use AI services without even knowing they're using it, right? You know, I think a lot of the applications are being already built on top of OpenAI, and then they are kind of, you know, help people to do marketing, legal documents, you know, so they're already inherently OpenAI kind of the users already. So I think yeah. >> Well, Howie, we've got to wrap, but I really appreciate you coming on. I want to give you a last minute to wrap up here. In your experience, and you've seen many waves of innovation. You've even had your hands in a lot of the big waves past three inflection points. And obviously, machine learning you're doing now, you're deep end. Why is this Supercloud movement, this wave of Supercloud and the discussion of this next inflection point, why is it so important? For the folks watching, why should they be paying attention to this particular moment in time? Could you share your super clip on Supercloud? >> Howie: Right. So this is simple from my point of view. So why do you even have cloud to begin with, right? IT is too complex, too complex to operate or too expensive. So there's a newer model. There is a better model, right? Let someone else operate it, there is elasticity out of it, right? That's great. Until you have multiple vendors, right? Many vendors even, you know, we're talking about kind of how to make multiple vendors look like the same, but frankly speaking, even one vendor has, you know, thousand services. Now it's kind of getting, what Kid was talking about what, cloud chaos, right? It's the evolution. You know, the history repeats itself, right? You know, you have, you know, next great things and then too many great things, and then people need to sort of abstract this out. So it's almost that you must do this. But I think how to abstract this out is something that at this time, AI is going to help a lot, right? You know, like I mentioned, right? A lot of the abstraction, you don't have to think about API anymore. I bet 10 years from now, you know, IT is one language away, not API away. So think about that world, right? So Supercloud in, in my opinion, sure, you kind of abstract things out. You have, you know, consistent layers. But who's going to do that? Is that like we all agreed upon the model, agreed upon those APIs? Not necessary. There are certain, you know, truth in that, but there are other truths, let bots take care of, right? Whether you know, I want some X happens, whether it's going to be done by Azure, by AWS, by GCP, bots will figure out at a given time with certain contacts with your security requirement, posture requirement. I'll think that out. >> John: That's awesome. And you know, Dave, you and I have been talking about this. We think scale is the new ratification. If you have first mover advantage, I'll see the benefit, but scale is a huge thing. OpenAI, AWS. >> Howie: Yeah. Every day, we are using OpenAI. Today, we are labeling data for them. So you know, that's a little bit of the- (laughs) >> John: Yeah. >> First mover advantage that other people don't have, right? So it's kind of scary. So I'm very sure that Google is a little bit- (laughs) >> When we do our super AI event, you're definitely going to be keynoting. (laughs) >> Howie: I think, you know, we're talking about Supercloud, you know, before long, we are going to talk about super intelligent cloud. (laughs) >> I'm super excited, Howie, about this. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you, Howie Xu. Always a great analyst for us contributing to the community. VP of Machine Learning and Zscaler, industry legend and friend of theCUBE. Thanks for coming on and sharing really, really great advice and insight into what this next wave means. This Supercloud is the next wave. "If you're not on it, you're driftwood," says Pat Gelsinger. So you're going to see a lot more discussion. We'll be back more here live in Palo Alto after this short break. >> Thank you. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome to this CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California. We've got Sam Kassoumeh, co-founder and chief operating office at SecurityScorecard here remotely coming in. Thanks for coming on Sam. Security, Sam. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. Thanks for having me. >> Love the security conversations. I love what you guys are doing. I think this idea of managed services, SaaS. Developers love it. Operation teams love getting into tools easily and having values what you guys got with SecurityScorecard. So let's get into what we were talking before we came on. You guys have a unique solution around ratings, but also it's not your grandfather's pen test want to be security app. Take us through what you guys are doing at SecurityScorecard. >> Yeah. So just like you said, it's not a point in time assessment and it's similar to a traditional credit rating, but also a little bit different. You can really think about it in three steps. In step one, what we're doing is we're doing threat intelligence data collection. We invest really heavily into R&D function. We never stop investing in R&D. We collect all of our own data across the entire IPV force space. All of the different layers. Some of the data we collect is pretty straightforward. We might crawl a website like the example I was giving. We might crawl a website and see that the website says copyright 2005, but we know it's 2022. Now, while that signal isn't enough to go hack and break into the company, it's definitely a signal that someone might not be keeping things up to date. And if a hacker saw that it might encourage them to dig deeper. To more complex signals where we're running one of the largest DNS single infrastructures in the world. We're monitoring command and control malware and its behaviors. We're essentially collecting signals and vulnerabilities from the entire IPV force space, the entire network layer, the entire web app player, leaked credentials. Everything that we think about when we talk about the security onion, we collect data at each one of those layers of the onion. That's step one. And we can do all sorts of interesting insights and information and reports just out of that thread intel. Now, step two is really interesting. What we do is we go identify the attack surface area or what we call the digital footprint of any company in the world. So as a customer, you can simply type in the name of a company and we identify all of the domains, sub domains, subsidiaries, organizations that are identified on the internet that belong to that organization. So every digital asset of every company we go out and we identify that and we update that every 24 hours. And step three is the rating. The rating is probabilistic and it's deterministic. The rating is a benchmark. We're looking at companies compared to their peers of similar size within the same industry and we're looking at how they're performing. And it's probabilistic in the sense that companies that have an F are about seven to eight times more likely to experience a breach. We're an A through F scale, universally understood. Ds and Fs, more likely to experience a breach. A's we see less breaches now. Like I was mentioning before, it doesn't mean that an F is always going to get hacked or an A can never get hacked. If a nation state targets an A, they're going to eventually get in with enough persistence and budget. If the pizza shop on the corner has an F, they may never get hacked because no one cares, but natural correlation, more doors open to the house equals higher likelihood someone unauthorized is going to walk in. So it's really those three steps. The collection, we map it to the surface area of the company and then we produce a rating. Today we're rating about 12 million companies every single day. >> And how many people do you have as customers? >> We have 50,000 organizations using us, both free and paid. We have a freemium tier where just like Yelp or a LinkedIn business profile. Any company in the world has a right to go claim the score. We never extort companies to fix the score. We never charge a company to see the score or fix it. Any company in a world without paying us a cent can go in. They can understand what we're seeing about them, what a hacker could see about their environment. And then we empower them with the tools to fix it and they can fix it and the score will go up. Now companies pay us because they want enterprise capabilities. They want additional modules, insights, which we can talk about. But in total, there's about 50,000 companies that at any given point in time, they're monitoring about a million and a half organizations of the 12 million that we're rating. It sounds like Google. >> If you want to look at it. >> Sounds like Google Search you got going on there. You got a lot of search and then you create relevance, a score, like a ranking. >> That's precisely it. And that's exactly why Google ventures invested in us in our Series B round. And they're on our board. They looked and they said, wow, you guys are building like a Google Search engine over some really impressive threat intelligence. And then you're distilling it into a score which anybody in the world can easily understand. >> Yeah. You obviously have page rank, which changed the organic search business in the late 90s, early 2000s and the rest is history. AdWords. >> Yeah. >> So you got a lot of customer growth there potentially with the opt-in customer view, but you're looking at this from the outside in. You're looking at companies and saying, what's your security posture? Getting a feel for what they got going on and giving them scores. It sounds like it's not like a hacker proof. It's just more of a indicator for management and the team. >> It's an indicator. It's an indicator. Because today, when we go look at our vendors, business partners, third parties were flying blind. We have no idea how they're doing, how they're performing. So the status quo for the last 20 years has been perform a risk assessments, send a questionnaire, ask for a pen test and an audit evidence. We're trying to break that cycle. Nobody enjoys it. They're long tail. It's a trust without verification. We don't really like that. So we think we can evolve beyond this point in time assessment and give a continuous view. Now, today, historically, we've been outside in. Not intrusive, and we'll show you what a hacker can see about an environment, but we have some cool things percolating under the hood that give more of a 360 view outside, inside, and also a regulatory compliance view as well. >> Why is the compliance of the whole third party thing that you're engaging with important? Because I mean, obviously having some sort of way to say, who am I dealing with is important. I mean, we hear all kinds of things in the security landscape, oh, zero trust, and then we hear trust, supply chain, software risk, for example. There's a huge trust factor there. I need to trust this tool or this container. And then you got the zero trust, don't trust anything. And then you've got trust and verify. So you have all these different models and postures, and it just seems hard to keep up with. >> Sam: It's so hard. >> Take us through what that means 'cause pen tests, SOC reports. I mean the clouds help with the SOC report, but if you're doing agile, anything DevOps, you basically would need to do a pen test like every minute. >> It's impossible. The market shifted to the cloud. We watched and it still is. And that created a lot of complexity, not to date myself. But when I was starting off as a security practitioner, the data center used to be in the basement and I would have lunch with the database administrator and we talk about how we were protecting the data. Those days are long gone. We outsource a lot of our key business practices. We might use, for example, ADP for a payroll provider or Dropbox to store our data. But we've shifted and we no longer no who that person is that's protecting our data. They're sitting in another company in another area unknown. And I think about 10, 15 years ago, CISOs had the realization, Hey, wait a second. I'm relying on that third party to function and operate and protect my data, but I don't have any insight, visibility or control of their program. And we were recommended to use questionnaires and audit forms, and those are great. It's good hygiene. It's good practice. Get to know the people that are protecting your data, ask them the questions, get the evidence. The challenge is it's point in time, it's limited. Sometimes the information is inaccurate. Not intentionally, I don't think people intentionally want to go lie, but Hey, if there's a $50 million deal we're trying to close and it's dependent on checking this one box, someone might bend a rule a little bit. >> And I said on theCUBE publicly that I think pen test reports are probably being fudged and dates being replicated because it's just too fast. And again, today's world is about velocity on developers, trust on the code. So you got all kinds of trust issues. So I think verification, the blue check mark on Twitter kind of thing going on, you're going to see a lot more of that and I think this is just the beginning. I think what you guys are doing is scratching the surface. I think this outside in is a good first step, but that's not going to solve the internal problem that still coming and have big surface areas. So you got more surface area expanding. I mean, IOT's coming in, the Edge is coming fast. Never mind hybrid on-premise cloud. What's your organizations do to evaluate the risk and the third party? Hands shaking, verification, scorecards. Is it like a free look here or is it more depth to it? Do you double click on it? Take us through how this evolves. >> John it's become so disparate and so complex, Because in addition to the market moving to the cloud, we're now completely decentralized. People are working from home or working hybrid, which adds more endpoints. Then what we've learned over time is that it's not just a third party problem, because guess what? My third parties behind the scenes are also using third parties. So while I might be relying on them to process my customer's payment information, they're relying on 20 vendors behind the scene that I don't even know about. I might have an A, they might have an A. It's really important that we expand beyond that. So coming out of our innovation hub, we've developed a number of key capabilities that allow us to expand the value for the customer. One, you mentioned, outside in is great, but it's limited. We can see what a hacker sees and that's helpful. It gives us pointers where to maybe go ask double click, get comfort, but there's a whole nother world going on behind the firewall inside of an organization. And there might be a lot of good things going on that CISO security teams need to be rewarded for. So we built an inside module and component that allows teams to start plugging in the tools, the capabilities, keys to their cloud environments. And that can show anybody who's looking at the scorecard. It's less like a credit score and more like a social platform where we can go and look at someone's profile and say, Hey, how are things going on the inside? Do they have two-factor off? Are there cloud instances configured correctly? And it's not a point in time. This is a live connection that's being made. This is any point in time, we can validate that. The other component that we created is called an evidence locker. And an evidence locker, it's like a secure vault in my scorecard and it allows me to upload things that you don't really stand for or check for. Collateral, compliance paperwork, SOC 2 reports. Those things that I always begrudgingly email. I don't want to share with people my trade secrets, my security policies, and have it sit on their exchange server. So instead of having to email the same documents out, 300 times a month, I just upload them to my evidence locker. And what's great is now anybody following my scorecard can proactively see all the great things I'm doing. They see the outside view. They see the inside view. They see the compliance view. And now they have the holy grail view of my environment and can have a more intelligent conversation. >> Access to data and access methods are an interesting innovation area around data lineage. Tracing is becoming a big thing. We're seeing that. I was just talking with the Snowflake co-founder the other day here in theCUBE about data access and they're building a proprietary mesh on top of the clouds to figure out, Hey, I don't want to give just some tool access to data because I don't know what's on the other side of those tools. Now they had a robust ecosystem. So I can see this whole vendor risk supply chain challenge around integration as a huge problem space that you guys are attacking. What's your reaction to that? >> Yeah. Integration is tricky because we want to be really particular about who we allow access into our environment or where we're punching holes in the firewall and piping data out out of the environment. And that can quickly become unwieldy just with the control that we have. Now, if we give access to a third party, we then don't have any control over who they're sharing our information with. When I talk to CISOs today about this challenge, a lot of folks are scratching their head, a lot of folks treat this as a pet project. Like how do I control the larger span beyond just the third parties? How do I know that their software partners, their contractors that they're working with building their tools are doing a good job? And even if I know, meaning, John, you might send me a list of all of your vendors. I don't want to be the bad guy. I don't really have the right to go reach out to my vendors' vendors knocking on their door saying, hi, I'm Sam. I'm working with John and he's your customer. And I need to make sure that you're protecting my data. It's an awkward chain of conversation. So we're building some tools that help the security teams hold the entire ecosystem accountable. We actually have a capability called automatic vendor discovery. We can go detect who are the vendors of a company based on the connections that we see, the inbound and outbound connections. And what often ends up happening John is we're bringing to the attention to our customers, awareness about inbound and outbound connections. They had no idea existed. There were the shadow IT and the ghost vendors that were signed without going through an assessment. We detect those connections and then they can go triage and reduce the risk accordingly. >> I think that risk assessment of vendors is key. I was just reading a story about this, about how a percentage, I forget the number. It was pretty large of applications that aren't even being used that are still on in companies. And that becomes a safe haven for bad actors to hang out and penetrate 'cause they get overlooked 'cause no one's using them, but they're still online. And so there's a whole, I called cleaning up the old dead applications that are still connected. >> That happens all the time. Those applications also have applications that are dead and applications that are alive may also have users that are dead as well. So you have that problem at the application level, at the user level. We also see a permutation of what you describe, which is leftover artifacts due to configuration mistakes. So a company just put up a new data center, a satellite office in Singapore and they hired a team to go install all the hardware. Somebody accidentally left an administrative portal exposed to the public internet and nobody knew the internet works, the lights are on, the office is up and running, but there was something that was supposed to be turned off that was left turned on. So sometimes we bring to company's attention and they say, that's not mine. That doesn't belong to me. And we're like, oh, well, we see some reason why. >> It's his fault. >> Yeah and they're like, oh, that was the contractor set up the thing. They forgot to turn off the administrative portal with the default login credentials. So we shut off those doors. >> Yeah. Sam, this is really something that's not talked about a lot in the industry that we've become so reliant on managed services and other people, CISOs, CIOs, and even all departments that have applications, even marketing departments, they become reliant on agencies and other parties to do stuff for them which inherently just increases the risk here of what they have. So there inherently could be as secure as they could be, but yet exposed completely on the other side. >> That's right. We have so many virtual touch points with our partners, our vendors, our managed service providers, suppliers, other third parties, and all the humans that are involved in that mix. It creates just a massive ripple effect. So everybody in a chain can be doing things right. And if there's one bad link, the whole chain breaks. I know it's like the cliche analogy, but it rings true. >> Supply chain trust again. Trust who you trust. Let's see how those all reconcile. So Sam, I have to ask you, okay, you're a former CISO. You've seen many movies in the industry. Co-founded this company. You're in the front lines. You've got some cool things happening. I can almost imagine the vision is a lot more than just providing a rating and score. I'm sure there's more vision around intelligence, automation. You mentioned vault, wallet capabilities, exchanging keys. We heard at re:Inforce automated reasoning, metadata reasoning. You got all kinds of crypto and quantum. I mean, there's a lot going on that you can tap into. What's your vision where you see SecurityScorecard going? >> When we started the company, the rating was the thing that we sold and it was a language that helped technical and non-technical folks alike level the playing field and talk about risk and use it to drive their strategy. Today, the rating just opens the door to that discussion and there's so much additional value. I think in the next one to two years, we're going to see the rating becomes standardized. It's going to be more frequently asked or even required or leveraged by key decision makers. When we're doing business, it's going to be like, Hey, show me your scorecard. So I'm seeing the rating get baked more and more the lexicon of risk. But beyond the rating, the goal is really to make a world a safer place. Help transform and rise the tide. So all ships can lift. In order to do that, we have to help companies, not only identify the risk, but also rectify the risk. So there's tools we build to really understand the full risk. Like we talked about the inside, the outside, the fourth parties, fifth parties, the real ecosystem. Once we identified where are all the Fs and bad things, will then what? So couple things that we're doing. We've launched a pro serve arm to help companies. Now companies don't have to pay to fix the score. Anybody, like I said, can fix the score completely free of charge, but some companies need help. They ask us and they say, Hey, I'm looking for a trusted advisor. A Sherpa, a guide to get me to a better place or they'll say, Hey, I need some pen testing services. So we've augmented a service arm to help accelerate the remediation efforts. We're also partnered with different industries that use the rating as part of a larger picture. The cyber rating isn't the end all be all. When companies are assessing risk, they may be looking at a financial ratings, ESG ratings, KYC AML, cyber security, and they're trying to form a complete risk profile. So we go and we integrate into those decision points. Insurance companies, all the top insurers, re-insurers, brokers are leveraging SecurityScorecard as an ingredient to help underwrite for cyber liability insurance. It's not the only ingredient, but it helps them underwrite and identify the help and price the risk so they can push out a policy faster. First policy is usually the one that's signed. So time to quote is an important metric. We help to accelerate that. We partner with credit rating agencies like Fitch, who are talking to board members, who are asking, Hey, I need a third party, independent verification of what my CISO is saying. So the CISO is presenting the rating, but so are the proxy advisors and the ratings companies to the board. So we're helping to inform the boards and evolve how they're thinking about cyber risk. We're helping with the insurance space. I think that, like you said, we're only scratching the surface. I can see, today we have about 50,000 companies that are engaging a rating and there's no reason why it's not going to be in the millions in just the next couple years here. >> And you got the capability to bring in more telemetry and see the new things, bring that into the index, bring that into the scorecard and then map that to potential any vulnerabilities. >> Bingo. >> But like you said, the old days, when you were dating yourself, you were in a glass room with a door lock and key and you can see who's two folks in there having lunch, talking database. No one's going to get hurt. Now that's gone, right? So now you don't know who's out there and machines. So you got humans that you don't know and you got machines that are turning on and off services, putting containers out there. Who knows what's in those payloads. So a ton of surface area and complexity to weave through. I mean only is going to get done with automation. >> It's the only way. Part of our vision includes not attempting to make a faster questionnaire, but rid ourselves of the process all altogether and get more into the continuous assessment mindset. Now look, as a former CISO myself, I don't want another tool to log into. We already have 50 tools we log into every day. Folks don't need a 51st and that's not the intent. So what we've done is we've created today, an automation suite, I call it, set it and forget it. Like I'm probably dating myself, but like those old infomercials. And look, and you've got what? 50,000 vendors business partners. Then behind there, there's another a hundred thousand that they're using. How are you going to keep track of all those folks? You're not going to log in every day. You're going to set rules and parameters about the things that you care about and you care depending on the nature of the engagement. If we're exchanging sensitive data on the network layer, you might care about exposed database. If we're doing it on the app layer, you're going to look at application security vulnerabilities. So what our customers do is they go create rules that say, Hey, if any of these companies in my tier one critical vendor watch list, if they have any of these parameters, if the score drops, if they drop below a B, if they have these issues, pick these actions and the actions could be, send them a questionnaire. We can send the questionnaire for you. You don't have to send pen and paper, forget about it. You're going to open your email and drag the Excel spreadsheet. Those days are over. We're done with that. We automate that. You don't want to send a questionnaire, send a report. We have integrations, notify Slack, create a Jira ticket, pipe it to ServiceNow. Whatever system of record, system of intelligence, workflow tools companies are using, we write in and allow them to expedite the whole. We're trying to close the window. We want to close the window of the attack. And in order to do that, we have to bring the attention to the people as quickly as possible. That's not going to happen if someone logs in every day. So we've got the platform and then that automation capability on top of it. >> I love the vision. I love the utility of a scorecard, a verification mark, something that could be presented, credential, an image, social proof. To security and an ongoing way to monitor it, observe it, update it, add value. I think this is only going to be the beginning of what I would see as much more of a new way to think about credentialing companies. >> I think we're going to reach a point, John, where and some of our customers are already doing this. They're publishing their scorecard in the public domain, not with the technical details, but an abstracted view. And thought leaders, what they're doing is they're saying, Hey, before you send me anything, look at my scorecard securityscorecard.com/securityrating, and then the name of their company, and it's there. It's in the public domain. If somebody Googles scorecard for certain companies, it's going to show up in the Google Search results. They can mitigate probably 30, 40% of inbound requests by just pointing to that thing. So we want to give more of those tools, turn security from a reactive to a proactive motion. >> Great stuff, Sam. I love it. I'm going to make sure when you hit our site, our company, we've got camouflage sites so we can make sure you get the right ones. I'm sure we got some copyright dates. >> We can navigate the decoys. We can navigate the decoys sites. >> Sam, thanks for coming on. And looking forward to speaking more in depth on showcase that we have upcoming Amazon Startup Showcase where you guys are going to be presenting. But I really appreciate this conversation. Thanks for sharing what you guys are working on. We really appreciate. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much, John. Thank you for having me. >> Okay. This is theCUBE conversation here in Palo Alto, California. Coming in from New York city is the co-founder, chief operating officer of securityscorecard.com. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

(cheery music) >> Thanks, Adam. Thanks for everyone in the studio. Dave, we've got some great main stage CUBE interviews. Normally we'll sit at the desk, and do a remote, but since it's a virtual event, and a physical event, it's a hybrid event. We've got two amazing Google leaders to talk with us. I had a chance to sit down with Amol who was gone yesterday during our breaking news segment. They had the big news. We had two great guests, Amol Phadke. He's our first interview. He's the head of Google's telecom industry. Again, he came in, broke into our segment yesterday with breaking news. Obviously released with Ericsson, and the O-RAN Alliance. I had a great chance to chat with him. A wide ranging conversation for 13 minutes. Enjoy my interview with Amol, right now. (cheery music) Well welcome to the CUBE's coverage for Mobile World Congress, 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host of the CUBE. We're here in person as well as remote. It's a hybrid event. We're on the ground at Mobile World Congress, bringing all the action here. We're remote with Amol Phadke, who's the Managing Director of the Telecom Industry Solutions team at Google Cloud, a big leader, and driving a lot of the change. Amol, thank you for coming on theCUBE here in the hybrid event from Mobile World Congress. >> Thank you, John. Thank you, John. Thank you for having me, So, hybrid event, which means it's in person, we're on the floor, as well as doing remote interviews and people are virtual. This is the new normal. Kind of highlights where we are in this telecom world, because the last time, Mobile World Congress actually had a physical event was winter of 2019. A ton has changed in the industry. Look at the momentum at the Edge. Hybrid cloud is now standard. Multi-cloud is being set up as we speak. This is all now the new normal, what is your take? And so it's pretty active in your industry. Tell us your opinion. >> Yes, John I mean the last two years have been seismic to say the least, right? I mean, in terms of the change that the CSP industries had had to do. You know, John, in the last two years, the importance of a CSP infrastructure has never become so important, right? The infrastructure is paramount. I'm talking to you remotely over the CSP infrastructure right now, and everything that we are doing in the last two years, whether it's working, or studying, or entertaining ourselves, all on that CSP infrastructure. So from that perspective, they are really becoming a critical national global information fabric on which the society is actually depending on. And that we see at Google as well, in the sense that we have seen up to 60% increase in demand, John, in the last two years, for that infrastructure. And then when we look at the industry itself, unfortunately all of that huge demand is not translating into revenue, because as an industry, the revenue is still flat-lining. In fact, the forecasted revenue for globally, for all the industry over the next 12 months is three to five per cent negative on revenue, right? So one starts to think, how come there is so much demand over the last two years, post-pandemic, and that's not translating to revenue? Having said that, the other thing that's happening is this demand is driving significant CapEx and OPEX investments in the infrastructure, as much as eight to $900 billion over the next decade is going to get spent in this infrastructure, from our perspective, Which means it's really a perfect storm. John, We have massive demand, massive need to invest to meet that demand, yet not translating to revenue, and the crux of all this is customer experience, because ultimately all of that translates into not having that kind of radically disruptive or transformational customer experience, right? So that's a backdrop that we find ourselves in the industry, and that really sets the stage for us to look at these challenges in terms of how does the CSP industry as a whole, grow top line, radically transform CSPCO, at the same time, reinventing the customer experience and finding those capital efficiencies. It's almost an impossible problem to find solution. >> It's a perfect storm. The waves are kind of coming together to form one big wave. You mentioned CapEx and OPEX. That's obviously changing the investments of their post-pandemic growth, and change in user behavior and expectations. The modern applications are being built on top of the infrastructure, that's changing. All of this is being driven by Cloud Native, and that's clear. You're seeing a lot more open kind of approaches, IT and OT coming together, whatever you want to do, this is just, it's a collision, right? It's a collision of many things. And this positive innovation coming out of it. So I have to ask you, what are you seeing as a solution that are showing the most promise for these telco industry leaders, because they're digitally transforming, so they got to re-factor their platforms while enabling innovation, which is a key growth for the revenue. >> Yes. So John, from a solution standpoint, what we actually did first and foremost as Google Cloud, was look at ourselves. So just like the transformation we just talked about in the CSP industry, we are seeing Google being transformed over the last two decades or so, right. And it's important to understand that there's a lot Google data over the last two decades that we can actually not externalize all of that innovation, all of that open source, all of that multicloud, was originally built for all the Google applications that all of us use daily, whether it's YouTube, or email or maps, you know. Same infrastructure, same open source, same multicloud. And we decided to sort of use the same paradigm to build the telecom solutions that I'm going to talk about next, right. So that's important to bear in mind, that those assets were there, and we wanted to externalize those assets, right. There are really four big solutions that are resonating really well with our CSP partners, John. You know, number one to your point, is how can they monetize the Edge? All of this happens at the Edge. All of this gets converged at the Edge. We believe with 5G acting as the brilliant catalyst to really drive this Edge deployment. CSPs would be in a very strong position, partnering with Cloud players like ourselves to drive growth, not just for their top line, but also to add value to the actual end enterprises that are seeking to use that Edge. Let me give you a couple of examples. We've been working with industries like retail and manufacturing, to create end solutions in a post-pandemic world. Solutions like contact-less shopping, or visual inspection of an assembly line in a manufacturing plant, without the need for having a human there, because of the digitalization of workforce. Which meant these kinds of solutions, can actually work well at the Edge driven by 5G. But of course they can't be done in isolation. So what we do is we partner with CSPs. We bring our set of solutions, and we actually launch in December 30 partners that are already on our Google Cloud Solutions. And then we partner with the CSPs based on our infrastructure, and their infrastructure to ultimately bring this all to life at the end customer, which often tends to be an enterprise, whether it's a manufacturing, plant, or a retail chain. >> Yeah, you guys got some great examples there. I love that Edge story. I think it's huge. I think it's only going to get bigger. I got to ask you while I got you here, because again, you're in the industry, you're the managing director, so you have to oversee this whole telecom industry. But it's bigger, it's beyond Telecom, where it's now Telecom's just one other Edge network, piece of the pie of the surety computing, as we say. So I got to ask you, one of the big things that Google brings to the table is the developer mojo, and opensource, and scale obviously. Scale's unprecedented, everyone knows that. But ecosystems are super important, and Telco's kind of really aren't good at that, right? So, you know, the Telco ecosystem was, I mean, okay, I'd say, okay, but mostly driven by carriers and moving bits from point A to point B. But now you've got a developer mindset, public cloud, developer ecosystem. How is this changing the landscape of the CSPs and how is it changing this cloud service provider's ability to execute, because that's the key in this new world? What's your opinion? >> Absolutely, John. So, there are two things, there are two dimensions to look at. One is when we came to market a couple of years ago with AnToks, we recognized exactly what you said, John, which is the world is moving to multi-cloud, hybrid cloud. We needed to provide a common platform that the developer community can utilize through microservices and API. And that platform had to by definition, work not just from Google Cloud, but any cloud. It could work on any public cloud, can work on CSP's private cloud. And of course, supports on some Google Cloud, right? The reason was, once you deploy and cause, once as a seamless application development platform, you could put all kinds of developer apps on top. So I just talked about 5G Edge John, a minute ago, those apps can sit on Antoks, but at the same time, IT to your point, John, IT apps could also sit on the same AnToks paradigm, and network apps. So as networks start becoming Cloud Native, whether it's SRAN, whether it's O-Ran, whether it's 5G core, same principle. And that's why we believe when we partner with CSPs, we are saying, "Hey, you give this AnToks to an ecosystem of community, whether that community is network, whether that community is IT, whether the communities Edge apps, all of those can reside seamlessly on this sort of AnToks fabric, John. >> Yeah, and that's going to set the table for multicloud, which is basically cloud words for multi-vendor, multi app. Amol, I've got to ask you while I have you here, first of all, thank you for coming on and sharing your insights. It's really great industry perspective. And obviously Google Cloud's got huge scale, and great leadership. And again, you know, the big, cloud players are moving in and helping out, and enabling a lot of value. I got to ask you, if you don't mind sharing, if someone asked you, "Amol, tell me about the impact that public cloud is having on the Telco industry." What would you say? What's the answer to that? Because a lot of people are like, okay, public cloud, I get it. I know what it looks like, but now everyone's knows it's going hybrid. So everyone will ask you the question, "What is public cloud doing for the telecom sector?" >> Yeah, I think it's doing three things, John, and great question by the way. Number one, we are actually providing unprecedented amount of insights on data that the CSPs traditionally already had, but have never looked at it from the angle we have looked at it. Whether that insights are at the network layer, whether those insights are to personalize customer experiences on the front-end systems. Or whether those insights are to drive care solutions in contact centers, and so on, and so forth. So it's a massive uplift of customer experience that we can help with, right. So that's a very important point, because we do have a significant amount of leadership, John at Google Cloud on analytics and data and insights, right? So, and we offer those roads to these people. Number two, is really what I talked about, which is helping them build an ecosystem, because let's take retail as an example. As a minimum, there are five constituents in that ecosystem, John. There is a CSP, there is Google Cloud, there's an actual retail store. There is a hardware supplier, there's a software developer. All of them as a minimum, have to work together to build that ecosystem, which is where we give those solutions, right? So that's the second part. And then the third part is, as they move towards Cloud Native, we are really helping them change their business model to become a DevOps, a Cloud Native mindset, not just a Cloud Native network or IP. But a Cloud Native mindset that creates unparalleled agility and flexibility in how they work as a business. So those are the three things I would say, as a response to that question. >> And also the retail's a great vertical for Google to go in there, given the Amazon fear out there. People want this for certainly low hanging fruit. I think the DevOps piece is going to be a big, winning opportunity to see how the developers get driven into the landscape. I think that's a huge point. Amol, that's really great insight. A final question for you, while I got you here. If someone says, "Hey, what's happened in the industry since 2019?" Last time we had Mobile World Congress, they were talking speeds and feeds. Now the world has changed. We're coming out of the pandemic. California is opening up. There's going to be a physical event. The world's going hybrid, certainly on the event, and certainly cloud. What's different in the telecom industry, from, you know, many, many months ago, over a year and a half ago, from 2019? >> I would say primarily, it's the adoption of digital everywhere, which previously, you know, there were all these inhibitions and oh, would this work? Would my customer systems become fully digital? Would I be able to offer AR VR experiences? Ah, that's a futuristic thing, you know. And suddenly the pandemic has created this acceleration that says, "Oh, even post-pandemic, half my customers are always going to talk to me, via our digital channel only." Which means the way they experience us, has to be through these new experiences whether it's AR VR, whether it's some other thing or applications. So that has been accelerated John, and the CSPs have therefore really started to go to the application, and to the services. Which is why you are seeing less on, you know, speeds and feeds because 5G is here, 5G's been deployed. Now, how do we monetize 5G? How can we leverage that biggest number? So that's the biggest- >> There's down stack, and then there's a top of the stack for applications. And certainly there's a lot of assets in the telecom landscape, a lot of value, a lot of refactoring going on, and new opportunities that are out there. Great, great conversation. Well, thank you, Amol Phadka, Managing Director, Telecom Industry Solutions. Thanks for comin' on the CUBE, appreciate it. >> Thank you, John. Thank you having me. >> Okay, Mobile World Congress here, in person, and hybrid, and remote. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Thank you for watching. We are here in person at the Cloud City Expo Community Area. Thanks for watching. Okay, that was us. That was me, online. Now, I'm here in person, as you can see Dave. That's a lot of fun. I love doing those interviews. So we had a chance to grab Google's top people when we could. They're not here, obviously. Amazon Web Services, Microsoft, and Google, the three hyperscalers, Dave, didn't make it out here. They didn't have a booth, but we had a chance to grab them. And that was head of the industry marketing, and I mean the industry group. So he's like the managing door. He runs the business side. >> It's an important sector for Google. You know, Amazon was really first, with that push into telco. Thomas Curran last March, laid out Google strategy for Telco. It's a huge sector. They know it. They understand how the cloud can disrupt it, and play a massive role there. >> Yeah. >> And Google, of course. >> They're not going to object to the public cloud narrative that Danielle Royston- >> No. >> I think they like it open source, Android coming to telco. Who knows what it's going to look like? >> That's what we call digital- >> So the next interview I did was with Shailesh Shukla. He is the Senior Vice-president. He's the Senior Leader at Google Cloud for Networking. And if you know, Google, Dave, Google's networking is really well known in the industry for being really awesome, because they power obviously Google Search, and a variety of other things. They pioneered the concept of SRE, Site Reliability Engineer, which is now a de facto position for DevOps, which is a cloud now persona inside almost every company, and certainly a very important position. And so- >> Probably the biggest global network, right? Undersea cables, and- >> I mean, Microsoft's got a big hyper-scale, because they've had MSN, and bunch of other stuff, infrastructure globally. But Amazon, Google and Microsoft all have massive scale, and Google again, very well engineered. They're total, and they're as we know, I live in Palo Alto, so I can attest that they're very strong. So this next interview is really from a networking perspective, because as infrastructure, as code gets more prolific and more penetrated, it's going to be programmable. And that's really going to be a key new enabler. So let's hear from Shailesh, Head of Networking at Google Cloud, and my interview with him. (cheery music) Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of Mobile World Congress, 2021. We are here in person in Barcelona, as well as remote. It's a hybrid event. You're going to have the physical space, in Barcelona for the first time, since 2019, and virtual worlds connecting. I've got a great guest here from Google, Shailesh Shukla, Vice-president and General Manager of the Networking Team, Google Cloud. Shailesh, it's great to see you. Thank you for coming on theCUBE for the special presentation from Mobile World Congress. Obviously, the Edge networking core, Edge human devices, all coming together. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much, John. It's great to see you again. And it's always a pleasure talking to theCUBE. And I want to say hello to everybody, from, you know, in Mobile World Congress. >> Yeah, and people don't know your background. You have a great history in networking. You've been there, many ways of innovation. You've been part of directly, big companies that were now known. Big names are all there. But now we haven't had a Mobile World Congress, since 2019. Think about that. That's, you know, many months, 20 something months gone by, since the world has changed in telco. I got to ask you, what is the disruption happening? Because think about that. Since 2019, a lot's changed in telco. Cloud-scale has happened. You've got the Edge developing. It's IT like now. What's your take? Shailesh, tell us. >> Yeah, John, as you correctly pointed out the last 18 months have been very difficult. And you know, I'll acknowledge that right up front, for a number of people around the world. I empathize with that. Now in the telecom, and kind of the broader Edge world, I would say that the last 18, 24 months have actually been transformative. O-RAN, it turns out was a very interesting sort of, you know, driver of completely new ways of both living, as well as working, right, as we all have experienced. I don't think that I've had a chance to see you live in 24 months. So, what we are seeing is the following. Number one, a number of telecom carriers around the world have started the investment process for 5G, right, and deployment process. And that actually changes the game, as you know, due to latency, due to all of the capabilities around kind of incalculable bandwidth, right. Much lower latency, as well as, much higher kind of enterprise oriented capabilities, right? So network's licensing, as an example, quality of service, you know, by a traffic type, and for a given enterprise. So that's number one. Number two, I would say that the cloud is becoming a lot more kind of mainstream in the world, broader world of telecom. What we are seeing is an incredible amount of partnerships between telecom carriers and cloud providers, right? So instead of thinking of those two as separate universes, those are starting to come together. So I believe that over a period of time, you will see the notion of kind of Cloud Native capability for both the IT side of the house, as well as the network side of the house is becoming, you know, kind of mainstream, right. And then the third thing is that increasingly it's a lot more about enabling new markets, new applications, in the enterprise world, right. So certainly it opens up a new kind of revenue stream for service providers and carriers around the world. But it also does something unique, which is brings together the cloud capabilities right, around elasticity, flexibility, intelligence, and so on, with the enterprise customer base that most of the cloud providers already have. And with the combination of 5G, brings it to the telecom world. And those, you know, I started to call it, as a kind of the triad, right? The triad of an enterprise, the telecom service provider, and the cloud provider, all working together to solve real business problems. >> Yeah, and it's totally a great call out there on the pandemic. I think the pandemic has shown us, coming out of it now, that cloud-scale matters. And you look at all the successes between work, play, and how we've all kind of adjusted, the cloud technologies were a big part of that, those solutions that got us through it. Now you've got the Edge developing with 5G. And I got to ask you this question, because when we have CUBE interviews with all the leaders of engineering teams, whether it's in the industry, or customers in the enterprise, and even in the telcos, the modern application teams have end-to-end visibility into the workload. You're starting to see more and more of that. You starting to see more open source in everything, right. So okay, I buy that. You got an SRE on the team, you got some modern developers, you're shifting left, you've got Devs set up. All good, all cloud. However, you're a networking guy. You know this. Routing packets across multiple networks is difficult. So if you're going to have end-to-end visibility, you got to have end-to-end intelligence on the networking. How is that being solved? Because this is a critical discussion here at Mobile World Congress. Okay, I buy Cloud Native, I buy observability, I buy open source, but I got to have end-to-end visibility for security, and workload management and managing all the data. What's the answer on the network side? >> Yeah, so that's a great question. And the simple way to think about this, is first and foremost, you need kind of global infrastructure, right? So that's a given, and of course, you know, Google with its kind of global infrastructure, and some of the largest networks in the world, we have that present, right. So that's important. Second is, to be able to abstract a way that underlying infrastructure, and make it available to applications, to a set of APIs. Right, so I'll give an analogy here. Just as you know, say 10 years ago, around 10 years ago, Android came into the market from Google, in the following way. What it did, was that it abstracted away the underlying devices with a simple kind of layer on top of operating system, which exposed APIs northbound. So then application developers can write new applications. And that actually unleashed, you know, a ton of kind of creativity right, around the world. And that's precisely what we believe is kind of the next step, as you said, on an end-to-end observability basis, right? If you can do an abstraction away from all of the underlying kind of core infrastructure, provide the right APIs, the right kind of information around observability, around telemetric, instead of making, you know, cloud and the infrastructure, the black box. Make it open, make it kind of visible to the applications. Bring that to the applications, and let the thousand flowers bloom, right? The creativity in each vertical area is so significant, because there are independent software vendors. There are systems integrators. There are individual developers. So one of the things that we are doing right now, is utilizing open source technologies, such as Kubernetes, right? Which is something that Google actually brought into the market. And it has become kind of the de facto standard for all of the container and modernization of applications. So by leveraging those open technologies, creating this common control plane, exposing APIs, right, for everything from application development, to observability, you certainly have the ability to solve business problems through a large number of entities in the systems integrator and the ISC and the developer community. So that's the approach that we are taking, John. >> I love the Android analogy of the abstraction layer, because at that time, the iPhone was closed. It still is. And they got their own little strategy there. Android went the other way. They went open, went open abstraction. Now abstraction layers are good. And now I want to get your thoughts on this, because anyone in operating systems knows abstractions are great for innovation. How does that apply to the real world on telco? Because I get how it could add some programmability in there. I get the control plane piece. Putting it into the operator's hands, how do you guys see, and how do you guys talk about the Edge service offering? What does it mean for the telco? Because if they get this right, this is going to be in telco cloud developer play. It's going to be a telco cloud ecosystem play. It's an opportunity for a new kind of telco system. How do you see that rolling out in real world? >> Great question, John. So the way I look at it, actually even we should take a step back, right? So the confluence of 5G, the kind of cloud capabilities and the Edge is, you know, very clear to me that it's going to unleash a significant amount of innovation. We are in early stages, no question, but it's going to drive innovation. So one almost has to start by saying what exactly is Edge, right? So the way I look at it, is that the Edge can be a continuum all the way from kind of an IOT device in automobiles, right? Or an enterprise Edge, like a factory location, or a retail store, or kind of a bank branch. To the telecom Edge, which is where the service providers have, not only their points of presence, and central offices, but increasingly a very large amount of intelligent RAN sites as well, right. And then the, kind of public cloud Edge, right. Where, for example, Google has, you know, 25 plus kind of regions around the world. 144, you know, PoPS, lots of CDN locations. We have, you know, few thousand nodes deployed deep inside service provider networks for caching of content, and so on. So if you think about these as different places in the network that you can deploy, compute, storage and intelligence act, right. And do that in a smart way, right? For example, if you were to run the learning algorithms in the cloud with its flexibility and elasticity, and run the inferencing at the Edge, very Edge, at the point of sort of a sale, or a point, a very consumer standing. Now you suddenly have the ability to create a variety of Edge applications. So going back to the new question, what have we seen, right? So what we are seeing, is depending on the vertical, there are different types of Edge applications, okay. So let's take a few examples. And I'll give you some, a favorite example of mine, which is in the sports arena, right? So in baseball, when you are in a stadium, and soon there are people sort of starting to be in stadiums, right? And a pitcher is throwing the pitch, right, the trajectory of the ball, the speed of the pitch, where the batter is, you know, what the strike zone is, and all of these things, if they can be in a stadium in real time, analyzed, and presented to the consumer as additional intelligence, and additional insight, suddenly it actually creates kind of a immersive experience. Even though you may be in the stadium, looking at the real thing, you are also seeing an immersive experience. And of course at home, you get a completely different experience, right? So the idea is that in sports, in media and entertainment, the power of Edge compute, and the power of AI ML, right, can be utilized to create completely new immersive experiences. Similarly, in a factory or an automotive environment, you have the ability to use AI ML, and the power of the Edge and 5G coming together, to find where the defects are, in a manufacturing environment, right? So every vertical, what we're finding is, there are very specific applications, which you can call as kind of killer apps, right in the Edge world, that over time will become prevalent and mainstream. And they will drive the innovation. They will drive deployment, and they also will drive ultimately, kind of the economics of all of this. >> You're laying out, essentially the role of the public cloud in the telco market. I'd love to get your thoughts, because a lot of people are saying, "Oh, the cloud, it's all Edge now. It's going back to on-premises." This is not the case. I mean, I've been really vocal on this. The public cloud and cloud operations is now the new normal. So developers are there. So I want you to explain real quick, the role of the public cloud in the telecom market and the Telecom Edge, because now they're working together. You've got abstraction, you mentioned that Android-like environment coming, there's going to be an Android-like effect, that abstraction. You got O-RAN out there, creating these connection points, for interoperability, for radio signals, and the End Transceivers or the Edge of the radios. All of this is happening. How is Google powering this? What is the role of public cloud in this? >> Yeah, so let me first talk about genetically the role of public cloud. Then I'll talk about Google, okay, in particular. So, if at the end of the day, the goal here is to create applications in a very simple and efficient manner, right? So what do you like, if you look for that as the goal, then the public cloud brings, you know, three fundamental things. Number one, is what I would call as elasticity and flexibility, right? So why is this important? Because as we discussed earlier, Edge is not one place, it's a variety of kind of different locations. If there is a mechanism to create this common control plane, and have the ability to kind of have elastic compute, elastic networking, elastic storage, and have this deployed in a flexible manner. Literally if you think, think about it like an effortless Edge is what we are starting to call it. You can move workload and capability, and run it precisely where it makes sense, right? Like I said, earlier, training and learning algorithms in the deep cloud. Inferencing, at the very edge, right? So if you can make that decision, then it becomes very powerful. So that's the first point, you know, elasticity and flexibility that cloud can bring. Second is, intelligence. The whole notion of leveraging the power of data, and the power of AI and ML is extremely crucial for creation of new services. So that's something that the public cloud brings. And the third is this notion of, write once, deploy anywhere, right? This notion of kind of a full stack capability that when open, kind of developer ecosystem can be brought in, right? Like we talked about Kubernetes earlier. So if there's a way in which you can bring in those developer and ISV ecosystem, which is already present in the world of public cloud, that's something that is the third thing that public cloud brings. And Google strategy very simply, is to play on all of these, right? Because we, you know, Google has incredibly rich deployment experience around the world for some of the largest services on the planet, right? With some of the biggest infrastructure in the networking world. Second, is we have a very open and flexible approach, right? So open as you know, we not only leverage kind of the Kubernetes environment, but also there are many other areas, Key Native, and so on where Google has brought a lot of open kind of capabilities to the broader market. And the third, is the enablement of the ecosystem. So last year we actually announced 200 applications, you know, from 30 ISVs in multiple verticals that we're now going to be deployed on Google Cloud, in order to solve specific business pain points, right. And building out that ecosystem, working with telecom service providers, with systems integrators, with equipment players, is the way that we believe Google Cloud can make a difference in this world of developing Edge applications. We are seeing great traction, John, you know, whether it is in the carrier world. Carrier such as Orange, Telecom Italia, TELUS, SK Telecom, Vodafone. These have all publicly announced their work with Google Cloud, leveraging the power of data, analytics, AI ML, and our very flexible infrastructure. And then a variety of kind of partners and OEM players, in the industry. As an example, Nokia, right, Amdocs, and Netcracker, and many others. So we are really excited in the traction that we are getting. And we believe that public cloud is going to be a key part of the evolution of the telecom industry. >> Shailesh, it's great to have you on. Shailesh Shukla, VP and GM of Networking at Google Cloud. And I would just add to that final point there, that open and this Android-like open environment is going to create a thousand flowers to bloom. Those are new applications, new modern applications, new companies, a new ecosystem in the Telco Cloud. So congratulations. Thanks for coming on and sharing your insights. Google Cloud, you guys are about the data, and being open. Thanks for comin' on. >> Thank you, John. Good to talk to you. >> Okay, so keeps coverage of Mobile World Congress. Google Cloud, featured interview here on theCUBE. Really a big part of the public cloud is going to be a big driver. Call it public cloud, hybrid cloud, whatever you want to call it. It's the cloud, cloud and Edge with 5G, making a big difference and changing the landscape, and trying innovation for the telco space. I'm John Furrier, your CUBE host. Thanks for watching. Okay, Dave, that's the Google support. They are obviously singing the same song as Danielle Royston, every vertical. >> Two great interviews, John. Really nice job. We can see the tech. The strategy is becoming more clear. You know, one of the big four. >> Yeah, I just love, these guys are so smart. Every vertical is going to be impacted by elastic infrastructure, AI, machine learning, and this new code deployment, write once, deploy anywhere. That's theCUBE. We love being here it's a cloud show now. Mobile World Congress, back to the studio for more awesome Cloud City content.

>> from San Matteo. It's the Cube covering scaler. Innovation Day. Brought to You by Scaler >> Ron Jon Furry with the Cube. We're here for an innovation day at Scale ER's headquarters in San Mateo, California Profile in the hot startups, technology leaders and also value problems. Our next guest is Casey Clark, whose chief customer officer for scale of great to See You See >> you as well. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thanks for coming in. >> So what does it talk about the customer value proposition? Let's get right to it. Who are your customers? Who you guys targeting give some examples of what they're what they're doing with >> you. We sell primarily to engineering driven companies. So you know, the top dog is that the CTO you know, their pride born in the cloud or moving heavily towards the cloud they're using, you know, things like micro services communities may be starting to look at that server list. So really kind of forward thinking, engineering driven businesses or where we start with, you know, some of the companies that we work with, you know, CareerBuilder, scripts, networks, Discovery networks, a lot of kind of modern e commerce media B to B B to C types of sass businesses as well. >> I want it. I want to drill down that little bit later. But, you know, basically born the cloud that seems to be That's a big cloud. Native. Absolutely. All right, So you guys are startup. Siri's a funded, which is, you know, Silicon Valley terms. You guys were right out of the gate. Talk about the status of the product. Evolution of the value proposition stages. You guys are in market selling two customers actively. What's the status of the products? Where Where is it from a customer's standpoint? >> Sure, Yeah, we've got, you know, over 300 customers and so fairly mature in terms of, you know, product market status. We were very fortunate to land some very large customers that pushed us when we were, you know, seven. So on employees, maybe three or four years ago, and so that that four system mature very quickly. Large enterprises that had anyway, this one customers alando in Germany. They're one of the largest commerce businesses in Europe and they have 23 1,000 engineers. He's in the product on the way basis, and we landed them when it was seven employees, you know, three or four years ago. And so that four system insurance it was very easy for us to go to other enterprises and say, Yeah, we can work with you And here's the proof points on how we've helped >> this business >> mature, how they've improved kind of their their speed to truth there. Time to answer whenever they have issues. >> And so the so. The kind of back up the playbook was early on, when had seven folks and growing beta status was that kind of commercially available? When did it? When was the tipping point for commercially available wanted that >> that probably tipped. When I joined about a little under four years ago, I had to convince Steve that he was ready to sell this product, right, as you'd expect with a kind of technical founder. He never thought the product was ready to go, but already had maybe a dozen or so kind of friends and family customers on DH. So I kind of came in and went on my network and started trying to figure out who are the right fit for this. Andi, we immediately found Eun attraction, the product just stood up and we started pushing. And so >> and you guys were tracking some good talent. Just looking. Valley Tech leaders are joining you guys, which is great sign when you got talent coming in on the customer side. Lots changed in four years. I'll see the edge of the network on digital transformation has been a punchline been kind of a cliche, but now I think it's more real. As people see the power of scale to cloud on premises. Seeing hybrid multi cloud is being validated. What is the current customer profile when you look at pure cloud versus on premise, You guys seeing different traction points? Can you share a little bit of color on that? >> Yeah, So I talked a little bit about our ideal customer profile being, you know, if he's kind of four categories e commerce, media BTB, sas B to see sass. You know, most of these companies are running. Some production were close in the cloud and probably majority or in the cloud. When we started this thing and it was only eight of us and Jesus has your were never talked about. We're seeing significant traction with azure and then specific regions. Southeast Asia G C. P. Is very hot. Sourcing a high demand there and then with the proliferation of micro services communities has absolutely taken off. I mean, I'll raise my hand and say I wasn't sure if it was going to communities and bases two years ago. I was say, I think Mason's going to want to bet the company on. Thank God we didn't do that. We want with communities on DH, you know? So we're seeing a lot more of kind of these distributed workloads. Distributed team development. >> Yeah, that's got a lot of head room now. The Cube Khan was just last week, so it's interesting kind of growth of that whole. Yet service measures right around the corner. Yeah, Micro Service is going to >> be a >> serviceman or data. >> Yeah, for sure it's been, and that's one of the big problems that we run in with logs that people just say that they're too voluminous. It's either too hard to search through it. It's too expensive. We don't know what to deal with it. And so they're trying to find other ways to kind of get observe ability and so you see, kind of a growth of some of the metrics companies like data dog infrastructure monitoring, phenomenal infrastructure, modern company. You've got lots of tracing companies come out and and really, they're coming out because there's just so many logs that's either too expensive, too hard, too slow to search through all that data. That's where your answers live on DH there, just extracting, summarizing value to try to kind of minimize the amount of search. You have to >> talk about the competition because you mentioned a few of them splunk ce out there as well, and there public a couple years ago and this different price point they get that. But what's why can't they scale to the level of you guys have because and how do you compare to them? Because, I mean, I know that is getting larger, but what's different about you guys visited the competition? >> Absolutely. This is one of the reasons why I joined the company. What excites me the most is I got to go talk to engineers and I could just talk shop. I don't really talk about the business value quite as much. We get there at some point, obviously, but we made some very key decisions early on in the company's history. I mean, really, before the company started to kind of main back and architectural decisions. One we don't use elastics search losing any sort of Cuban indexing, which is what you know. Almost every single logging tool use is on the back end. Keyword indexes. Elastic search are great for human legible words. Relatively stale lists where you're not looking through, you know, infinite numbers of high carnality kind of machine data. So we made an optimized decision to use no sequel databases Proprietary column in our database. So that's one aspect of things. How we process in store. The data is highly efficient. The other pieces is worse, asked business, But we're true. SAS were true multi tenant. And so when you put a query into the scaler, every CP corn every server is executing on just that quarry is very similar way. Google Search works. So not only do we get better performance, we get better costume better scalability across all of our customers, >> and you guys do sail to engineering led buyer, and you mentioned that a lot of sass companies that are a lot of time trying to come in and sell that market bump into people who want to build their own. Yeah, I don't need your help. I think I might get fired or it might make me look good. That seems to be a go to market dynamic or and or consumption peace. What's your response to that? How does that does that fared for you guys? >> Engineers want to engineer whether it's the right thing or not, right? And so that is always hard. And I can't come in and tell your baby's ugly right because your baby is beautiful in your eyes and so that is a hard conversation have. But that's why I kind of go back to what I was saying. If we just talk shop, we talk about, you know, the the engineering decisions around, you know, is that the right database? Is this the right architecture? And they think that they started nodding and nodding, nodding, And then we say, And the values are going to be X y and Z cost performance scale ability on dso when you kind of get them to understand that like Elastics, which is great for a lot of things. Product search Web search. Phenomenal, but log management, high card. Now that machine did. It's not what it's designed for. Okay. Okay, okay. And then we start to get them to come around and say, Not only can you reallocate I mean, we talked about how getting talent is. It's hard. Well, let's put them back on mission critical business, You know, ensuring objectives. And we get, you know, service that this is all we do. Like you gonna have a couple people in there part time managing a long service. This is all we do. And so you get things like like tracing that were rolling out this quarter, you know, better cost optimization, better scalability. Things you would never get with an >> open. So the initial reaction might be to go in and sell on hey, cheaper solution. And is an economic buyer. Not really for these kinds of products, because you're dealing with engineers. Yeah. They want to talk shop first. That seems to be the playbook. >> Are artists is getting that first meeting and the 1st 1 is hard because that, you know, they're busy. Everybody's busy, They just wave you off. They ignore the email, the calls in and we get that. But once we get in, we have kind of this consultation, you know, conversation around. Why, why we made these technology decisions. They get it. >> Let's do a first meeting right now. People watching this video, What's the architectural advantages? Let's talk shop. Yeah, why, you guys? >> Yeah, absolutely so kind of too technical differentiators. And then three sort of benefits that come from those two technical choices. One is what I mentioned this proprietary, you know, columnar. No sequel database specifically designed for kind of high card in ality machine, right? There is no indexes that need to be backed up or tuned. You know, it's it's It's a massively parallel grab t its simplest form. So one pieces that database. The other piece is that architecture where we get, you know, one performance benefits of throwing every CP corn every several unjust trickery. Very someone way. Google Search works If I go say, How do I make a pizza and Google? It's not like it goes like Casey server in a data center in Alaska and runs for a bit. They're throwing a tonic and pure power every query. So there's the performance piece. There is the scale, ability piece. We have one huge massive pool of shared compute resource is And so you're logged, William. Khun, Spike. But relative to the capacity we have, it means nothing. Right? But all these other services, they're single tenant, you know, hosted services. You know, there's a capacity limit. And you a single customer. If you're going, you know, doubles. Well, it wasn't designed to handle that log falling, doubling. And then, you know, the last piece is the cost. There is a huge economies of scale shared services. We we run the system at a significantly lower cost than what anybody else can. And so you get, you know, cost, benefits, performance by defense and scale, ability >> and the life of the engineer. The buyer here. What if some of the day in the life use case pain in the butt so they have a mean its challenges. There's a dead Bob's is basically usually the people who do Dev ups are pretty hard core, and they they love it and they tend to love the engineering side of it. But what of the hassles with them? >> Yeah, Yeah, >> but you saw >> So you know, kind of going back to what we're all about were all about speed to truth, right? In kind of a modern environment where you're deploying everyday multiple times per day. Ah, lot of times there's no que es your point directly to the production, right? And you're kind of but is on the line. When that code goes live, you need to be able to kind of get speed to truth as quickly as possible, right? You need to be able to identify one of problem went wrong when something went wrong immediately, and they needed to be able to come up with a resolution. Right? There's always two things that we always talk about. Meantime, to restore it meantime, to resolution right there is. You know, maybe the saris are responsible for me. Time to restore. So they're in scaler. They get alert there, immediately diving through the logs to regret. Okay, it's this service. Either we need to restart it. Or how do we kind of just put a Band Aid on top? It's to make sure customers don't see it right. And then it gets kicked over to developer who wrote the code and say, Okay, now. Meantime, the resolution, How long until we figure out what went wrong and how do we fix it to make sure it doesn't happen again? And that's where we help. >> You know, It's interesting case he mentioned the resolution piece. A lot of engineers that become operationalized prove your service, not operations. People just being called Deb ops is that they have to actually do this as an SL a basis when they do a lot of AP AP and only gets more complicated with service meshes right now with these micro services framework, because now you have service is being stood up and torn down and literally, without it, human intervention. So this notion of having a path of validation working with other services could be a pain in the butt time. >> Yeah, I mean, it's very difficult. We've, you know, with some of the large organizations we work with you worked with. They've tried to build their own service, mashes and they, you know, got into a massive conference room and try to write out a letter from services that are out there in the realities they can't figure out. There's no good way for them to map out like, who talks toe what? When and know each little service knows, like Okay, well, here's the downstream effects, and they kind of know what's next to them. They know their Jason sees, but they don't really know much further than that on the nice thing about, you know, logs and all kind of the voluminous data that is in there, which makes it very difficult to manage. But the answers are are in there, right? And so we provide a lot of value by giving you one place to look through all of >> that cube con. This has been a big topic because a lot of times just to be more hard core is that there could be downtime on the services They don't even know about >> it. Yeah. Yeah, That's exactly >> what discovering and visualizing that are surfacing is huge. Okay, what's the one thing that people should know about scaler that haven't talked you guys or know about? You guys should know about you guys Consider. >> Yeah. I mean, I think the reality is everybody's trying to move as quickly as possible. And there is a better way, you know, observe, ability, telemetry, monitoring, whatever you call your team Is court of the business right? Its core to moving faster, its core to providing a better user experience. And we have, you know, spent a significant amount of time building. You need technology to support your business is growth. Andi, I think you know you can look at the benefits I've talked about them cost performance, scalability. Right? But these airline well, with whatever you're looking at it, it's PML. If it's, you know, service up time. That's exactly what we provide. Is is a tool to help you give a better experience to your own customers. >> Casey. Thanks for spend the time. Is sharing that insight? Of course. We'd love speed the truth. It's our model to Cuba. Go to the events and try to get the data out there. We're here. The innovation dates scales Headquarters. I'm John for you. Thanks for watching

>> fly from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering Google Club next nineteen Tio by Google Cloud and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to the Cubes live Google next nineteen coverage. I'm General Dave Violante. We're here for three days of wall to wall coverage, breaking down all the content from Google Clouds. Big conference here, Google next twenty nineteen or next gas joke of a vice president. Google Data Centers spans all the data centers that Google and Google Cloud deploy. He's the man in charge of thousands of full time employees, thousands of contractors, tens of thousands of construction worker. He's building out the infrastructure and footprint to make the cloud work for Joe. Welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you both Very much. >> So. Sin DARPA Kai, the CEO of Google, kicked off the Kino, the new CEO of Google Cloud. Thomas Korean came on always ten weeks into the job. Clearly, the investment in Google cloud new building on separate from campus. So Google and Google Cloud or two separate groups, has been reported clearly by us and others. But at the end of the day, you're gonna run all the stuffs on somewhere. So you know, you guys have deep, deep experience. I know personally and following Google and covering Google thie excellence and engineering the excellence in building on data centers. What is the status of just quickly Take a minute to explain how it's organized? Get Google proper, Which is where Ron knows Google, Google Search, etcetera, Gmail and Google Cloud. How's that? How's that operate? What's some of the data points? >> Okay, um so, as you know, the head of the teams that do everything from procuring land and writing energy contracts and buying renewable energy to designing, building and operating all the data centers. Cloud is one of my largest customers. But my other customers air search and ads and Gmail and G sweetened. So, really, our data centers I Google are built for the entire Google enterprise, and cloud happens to be one of our largest internal customers in that enterprise. >> How about some of stats countries, regions, data centers? What's the new one? Because you have regions, you availability zones. Talk about some of the stats inside the numbers >> s o what the starting at the Google level, we have data centers in four continents. So we're in North America South America, Asia and Europe. Of course, we have a probably one of the world's largest global private networks with, you know, thirteen undersea cables that are our own and hundreds of thousands of miles of dark fiber and lit fiber that way operate like I said, probably one of the world's largest networks we have in in Europe were in five countries in Europe, were in two countries in Asia. We're in one country in South America, and that's at the Google and North America. Of course, we have many, many, many sites across all of North America. That's it. The Google level now Cloud has nineteen regions that they operate in and fifty eight zones. So each region, of course, has multiple zones in it. You know, we we cover. Google has presence in over two hundred countries worldwide, so really, it is truly global operations. >> So the two hundred countries is Google wide nineteen cloud regions and fifty eight availability zones. That's Google Cloud. That's great. Okay, so do you not sort of mix infrastructure for cloud and things like Gmail and maps and search is that is that correct? This their separate infrastructures or >> it's It's not so separate infrastructure. So when when my team builds a data center, any one of our internal customers could be in that day this up. In addition to the Google owned and operated data centers, we also have some sites that are least in certain regions, and Cloud may be occupying those. But regardless of whether it's owned or leased, its the same hardware in there, it's the same operation staff that Aeryn they're the same expertise, the same deep knowledge about operating cloud environments. And so, regardless of whether we built it or we leased it >> from a CEO Syrian from a CEO's perspective, it's the same cell A nobody availabilities owners. I mean, that's what really matters, right? Okay, >> talk about the scale because one of the things I liked in the Kino Sundar is awesome. And Chris, Great keynote, You scale multiple times. He also had a clever comin around steal, she's said before publicly, amount of steel that goes into building this. This gives you guys large scale. Your guys are building on massive. It's like smart cities almost cause of your own like country, pretty much on the infrastructure. What are some of the key learning that you guys had because you have to be very efficient. Google likes to solve hard problems. You guys have done some things with sustainability. Specifically, talk about some of the learnings. As you guys have been building out these data centers for years with cloud on a massive expansion, you gotta watch the environment. You got to do some things. What if some of the learnings with some of the notable accomplishments you guys air forging on and what are some of the goals? >> So I googled we've been We've been at this for two decades. For more than twenty years we've been building and innovating on hyper efficiency, hyper scale, basically trying to build infrastructure that was more sustainable than had ever been thought possible. And then as our cloud business started to expand and boom, frankly, we set apart Teo build the world's most sustainable cloud. And really, what that means is that you know, we were the first company to announce that we were buying one hundred percent renewable energy, new renewable P P A's to match one hundred percent of our consumption and in twenty seventeen, we achieve that. That was after being carbon neutral for ten years before that. So going all the way back to two thousand seven were a carbon neutral company by mostly buying, buying high quality carbon offsets. Then we decided that no, we want to advance the transition, Teo renewable and sustainable energy. So we started buying direct power purchase agreements for wind and solar on DH. And then in twenty seventeen, we announced that we had matched one hundred percent. What that means is that we've acquired over three gigawatts of new solar and wind power purchase agreements, Mom. And now we're taking it a step further. We have a very ambitious kind of moonshot. Arguably, too, not only match our consumption, but match it twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, three sixty five. So you can imagine the complexity with this because the wind doesn't always blow, the sun doesn't always shine. And so that's going to take moonshot thinking in order for us to get there. But we feel so strongly about it were so committed to this cause that we've got a dedicated team working on this right now. >> So it's not just squeezing tea. You'ii out of the data center I'm sure you're doing that, but absolutely doing >> that. Since the earliest days I've been at Google for over eleven years. From the very first day I got there, I was completely blown away with the numbers that I was seeing about the Peewee and for maybe your audience. Pee Wee's a measure of efficiency in the data center, and and at the time, like back two thousand eight, Cooper was achieving numbers that the EPA thought wouldn't be achieved until, like, twenty twenty. And so I started to dig in and look how, and it was astounding to me the lengths that the company had gone tio toe optimize every single step of the way from the high voltage transformers in our own dedicated substations. Excuse me that that are much more efficient than typical. You know, utility transformers all the way through, minimizing the number of transformations going from grid level like three hundred forty five thousand bolts down to server voltage level, minimising the number of transformations reinventing the way people think about cooling. When we when I got to Google, I was also amazed. Our data centers are running it like roughly about eighty degrees Fahrenheit most data centers run it like sixty five degrees are data centers consume about half of the energy of a traditional enterprise data center at the same size. And in addition to that, we're producing about seven times the computer capacity for the same amount of Watts that enterprise data >> centers comes from. A from a practice of engineering really purpose engineering from day one into the overall holistic plan of the building. >> It's a relentless focus on efficiency and innovation. Right from Day one, when I got there, it had already been well in motion, but it's optimizing across the entire stack. It's optimizing software to be efficient, optimizing the server architecture er, to be more efficient, optimizing the power supplies in the server's optimizing the racks. You know, designing the racks to be working with the cooling equipment, specifically, are cooling systems are unique to Google. There they're not traditional air conditioning units that you would buy for traditional data centers. Sometimes, you know, we'll sight data centers where we can use natural environment in Finland. Our data centers right on the Gulf of Finland, and we use cold seawater from the Gulf of Finland to cool the data center. >> So to be clear, you're doing quite a bit of vertical integration, whether it's your own transformers of power supplies and other equipment, right? Try >> fiberoptic across the K Atlantica, Sundar pointed out. That's what I was doing your own stuff, absolutely officious as you pass on in savings to the customers and society with the sustainability piece. That's right. You have two angles on that. >> Really, it's you know it's good business, of course, because the bottom line. But more importantly, it's also the right thing for us to do. We feel very strongly that we need to be responsible for our impact on the environment and to minimize that impact and to be accountable for it. And we realized that the only way we can truly be accountable for our impact on the environment and for our energy consumption is to have it matched with renewable energy twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, >> not take a side track you. But you know, we've been covering the tech business for many, many decades, and certainly recently tech kind of got a bad name headlines. But I always look for tech stories that you know there was a text bad for people. There's always a good story. I think this is an example of tech for good. You guys have taken real engineering, building large scale systems and facilities, have software running on it. It's really a tech for good story. Congratulations on that. That's awesome work. Now I want to kind of asked you put you on the spot here because I think one conversation we're hearing a lot and I want him Get your expert opinion on this could be Google and also a CZ a person in the industry. Security in the supply chain has come up a lot in terms of whether chips have been hacked. Wave heard things like that in the story. Some of them have proved to be misinformation. Fake news. But you gotta watch security. Google's really hard core on security because you you lived that. How do you look at the supply chain? Is if you're not just throwing contractors at this, you could thinking of a realistic ground zero engineering approach to a holistic picture. How do you guys manage security challenge in the supply chain? Throughout the facilities from chips Teo, access things of that nature. >> So there's two aspects. There's always the logical and the physical security aspect from the physical security aspect in our warehouses that we manage. Of course, we apply the same rigorous standards for physical security. That way, do it their data centers. And that's multi layer in various different types of security technologies that we apply. And but on the logical side, you know, I think you're probably familiar with our Titan chips that way developed and those tightened ships are put in all of our servers, and from the time that they're built to the time that they're in the facility, you know those those chips that's our are securing the servers and your logical side. Though the you know, my colleagues on our information security team are truly the experts that could address that. >> That's where the software shines. That's right, and this is not just one. It's not a silo. You gotta deal physical build. It's kind of a bigger is It's a holistic, any rated model >> it is, and this is, you know, from from the data center industry perspective for us. Long as there's been it, there's always been the debate between facilities and I t right. When I got to Google, I was also so relieved to see that was all technical infrastructure and the systems. The software that runs on those those data centers are all under the same technical infrastructure group. And so you know it all. The buck stops at *** >> For years, there was a discussion and generalize about those groups coming together, and I think the way they come together is the cloud. Frankly, because you haven't seen a lot of change within organizations of ight and facilities really working together, that's right. >> Well, Joe, thanks for coming on the Q. Thanks for sharing your insight. Final word. What's the thoughts folks watching out there who were trying to understand how to bring technology into facilities? In general, people still have data centers they still have on premise activity, from lightbulbs to whatever any, any learnings in parting wisdom. Folks watching there in the facilities and or physical building space on howto build out these, whether it's smart cities with its construction and experiences, you could share with folks out there looking to build a ballistic long term plan. >> Yeah, there's a there's a few things first of all, we've published all of our energy efficiency, best practices. And so I encourage everyone to take a look at those best practices because the best you know, energy savings is the energy not consumed in the first place. So do all the right things to reduce the overall energy consumption in the first place to we want to help further the transition to renewable energy. And so we've published a lot about our power purchase agreements and a lot of the policy work that enables us to do. Those is also set in place for other large energy consumers that want to do the same thing. So our policy work can help Teo allow others to do the same thing. The third part of our sustainability aspect is really a circular economy. You know, we want Teo. I have zero waste to a landfill. We've currently achieved ninety one percent diversion of all of our data center operations, so ninety one percent is diverted to landfill. But we have a objective of one hundred percent note note no waste to a landfill. And then that means you have to do smart things like better re use better recycling better reselling of products that are still good but maybe out of date for for your use and then just ended off. We've really invested in our machine learning and a intelligence both on the data center operations. We have now ml running our some of our cooling systems in fully autonomous mode and doing a much better job of matching the cooling needs to the workloads at the time. And we took that same learning with our deepmind group, partnered with them, and we've applied that Teo are a wind farm now as well, so that they can better predict what the output of wind farm is going to be thirty six hours in advance. That allows the operators of the grid to better bring on more more energy and get higher value Out of that that win dinner. >> Great engineering story at scale. Congratulations. Love the societal impact tech for good. Congratulations. Love to have you back talk about the impact of a i ot Joe, Thanks for coming on the Yeah, it's all coming together with our arms. Jean. A center is not going away. House in the cloud needs to run on servers and has to be done in a engine engineered fashion. Google's leading the charge there. It's Cube Live coverage day, one of three days of coverage will be right back after this short break.

>> Announcer: From San Fransico, it's TheCUBE. Covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017. Brought to you by Samsung. (light electronic music) >> Hi everyone, welcome to day two coverage of the Samsung Developer Conference, or SDC 2017. I'm John Furrier, co-host of TheCUBE, co-founder of siliconANGLE Media. I'm here with Anouk Wipprecht. Hard to say last name, but I have a hard time with my Rs. It's an east coast thing. Welcome to TheCUBE. >> Thank you so much! >> So I'm super excited to chat with you, because you're doing some really innovative things around fashion tech, which we think is going to be at the cusp of a whole new revolution of fashion embedding tech. Before we get started, I have some pointed questions, so to speak. >> Yeah. >> Talk about what you're working on. People might not know some of your dresses, the spider dress has been famous. Talk about your work, and we'll jump into it. >> Yeah, I work as my own self owned fashion and technology, so the combination of fashion and technology. Some of my dresses, they are bleeding in, they are serving cocktail shots, they are attacking, really, with mechanic spider legs on the shoulders. They are exploding in a layer of smoke, sort of. So I do a lot with animatronics and robotics, and what I want to do is that, fashion is augmenting us, you know? So creating an interaction. >> So you're designing dresses in a way that's integrating new elements... >> Yeah. >> With some tech, robotic arms, the spider dress is one that retracts and has some coolness to it. But there's also the smoke dress... >> Anouk: Yeah. >> How many dresses have you designed? Give us a taste of the flavors and the reactions. >> Yeah, so I have, in total, 37 dresses. So it's a really big family, and the family starts to expand more and more. For me, it's a lot about expression, and about investigating how, if you place these pieces of technology on the body, what they can do, you know? So, seeing fashion as an interface, because I always say garments are there to shelter us, to keep us comfortable in a way, and for me, fashion is something different. For me, fashion is about expression and about communication. And for me, this fashion is analog, our garments are analog, they're not digital, they're not interactive, you know? So I want to put computer boards, microcontrollers in everything, sensors in everything so they start to come alive and they can really express us. And by that, really interesting things come because, do you want to be always expressed? Or do you always want to emote yourself? Or, how does that go? That is, for me, my biggest fascination, researching this field. >> Yeah, and it's here, at the Samsung Developer Conference, so obviously front and center on the keynotes. You're hearing, you're seeing your work, and on the things displayed, they're calling smart things. >> Anouk: Yeah. >> Clothes can be smart. And you're kind of going down that road. Obviously, robotics was a first step, cause that's cool tech. >> Yeah. >> Digital displays are coming, right? >> Anouk: Correct. >> Imagine, like, >> Anouk: Oh yeah, oh yeah. >> My top tweed on my shirt, or you know, my Facebook posts, or my friends. >> Yeah. >> Using the data, how are you thinking about this as a designer? Most people will think geeky, okay, got the data, and a database, but as an artist, as a designer. >> Myself, I do this for about 12 to 15 years. So I started at the beginning of the 2000s, really trying to see how fashion can become this interface, and I think by me growing into this, technology got smaller and smaller, and it's got closer to the body, in a way, so it was able to emboss in your garments. I think that just opens up so many interesting possibilities that haven't been explored yet, except for only, like, the Fit Bits and the watches, the smart watches that are more bothering us. But they don't do anything with the data officialization. They don't do anything to officialize this data. It's only, basically, in the screen, and I want to get it out of the screen and into the real life. >> So one of the most popular dresses that I notice on Twitter and on Google Search was the spider dress. That's got mechanical arms, got like spider legs, and it comes out, it's this cool, cool experience. >> Anouk: Yeah. >> Also, you have the smoke dress. >> Mm-hmm. >> Talk about what they do differently. Talk about the spider dress, the smoke dress, and what was the one with the heartbeat? Share some of what the dresses personify. >> So the spider dress, I created or, I had the pleasure to create with the semiconductor company Intel, and this dress is really about personal space. There's proximity sensors under the chin, so they are measuring when people come into the personal space. And when people do, there's mechanic legs on the shoulders, and they are basically attacking. But they're not just in one way, it would be boring. So depending on how you walk into the space and where you're standing, it's reacting differently. So, somebody's walking up to you very fast, and your dress is reacting very fast. >> It's like a spider sense. It's like a spider sense and you can feel the expression. Whoa, stay back, or... >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Be ready to engage. >> You can use this piece of technology which is host on your body in order to do something that we might not do, like defend yourself. An animal, if you come in the closeness of a cat, the cat will give you a claw, right? But we would say like, oh... We would choose to maybe feel uncomfortable this way. So I was thinking, if you have a system on the body that can do that for you, wow. That's technology helping you out, right? >> Certainly, if someone gets too close, uncomfortable, a little shock treatment might help. >> Yeah, correct. >> Help keep people away. That's a fun example, but I think this is kind of revolutionary, in my opinion. This is so kind of cool because you've got technology, you've got expression, you've got human interaction, all these things going on. Talk about the smoke dress, what is that about? >> Yeah, to just point out, I think, working with this, one of the main factors that I think is really interesting is that technology doesn't become a tool, it becomes a companion. It lives on your body, it lives with you, and it can maybe also listen to your body signals and it knows how you're doing, and that is sometimes not with handheld devices. They don't know how you feel, but as soon as it's on the body, it feels your heart, it can sense your brain, it can sense your pulse, your muscle contraction, and I think that makes it really interesting. These new technologies on the body can really listen to us. >> They're coming faster, too. You're seeing here, Samsung Health is the first step, obviously that's the sensors on the body. That's an internetive things device. >> Anouk: Yeah. >> And the phone is just a companion. But also, I would just say, that we had some guests yesterday, some influencers on. Validating that augmented reality is so much more advanced. It points to what you're doing. It's not something virtual, it's just augmenting what the human's doing. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. >> Alright, smoke dress, and what's that other dress, that does the heartbeat? >> Yeah. Smoke dress, basically, also based on sense. If more people are around, in the surroundings, the more smoke escapes. So, more the feeling of diving away, like shyness. So working with different emotions, I also created a series of dresses for Cirque du Soleil. We know, as the theater, they have a restaurant in Ibiza, and I created dresses that make cocktails. So a little push on the button, and then a peristaltic pump in the back, and it serves a little cocktail shot, and they are giving that. So looking at how this science can also be social, for example. How can they be personal? How can they be intimate? And I think that is the most interesting thing, to look at that that way while designing. >> Yeah, it's got to pretty interesting. People can take these into different social situations. >> Yeah. >> Parties or large crowds, the spider could be good for that. >> Yeah, but it's also, how can it help you? How can it help your shyness? How can it help you proceed in the world? How can it engage you? I think, like a lot of these things we don't understand yet, how technology can be this learning system. How can we work with technology hand in hand that way? >> So how did you get into all this? This is so cool. >> I started with fashion design myself. I was 14 years old, and again, the notion of these dresses. Expressive, communicative, but they were analog. So when I was 17 years old, I combined it with another love of mine, which is robots. I love robots, they're amazing. But I didn't want the robot to stand next to me, be modeled after a human. I wanted to place the robot on my body, or on the body, and be reacting and interacting like an animal. More intuitive, much more expressive, or maybe rebellious. And by that, it's open up a bos-khal of possibilities for what you can do regarding that, and how they can be interesting. >> Yeah, and I think this is going to be one of those fashion tech areas. What's the industry like right now on the fashion tech? For the folks that aren't following fashion tech. Where's the state of the industry? I mean, this is cutting edge you're doing, certainly. We love it. >> Anouk: Yeah. >> Where is the industry? >> Correct. Especially, like, the things that I'm doing are a little bit more about extremities, right? Really provoking this notion of what fashion can be as soon as it becomes interactive. But especially, like, the last five years, the technology industry... Again, I'm doing this for longer than 12 years. The last five years, really, the technology industry is really interested it. The last two to three years, the fashion industry starts to like, hey, look at it. But I think technology and fashion need to go, much more talking to each other in order to really make this field grow and all of that. That is where we come in, the creators, and the creatives, you know? We are the instigators of the ones that try to push these boundaries and try to bridge these gaps a little bit in order to make a melting pot regarding to that. >> Well, you're doing a great job, I'm super impressed. It's super inspiring to me, I mean, I'm just intrigued by the whole thing. I got to get your reaction to how the younger generation's responding. I have two daughters and two sons, but my daughters would probably be into this. What's the younger, I mean, younger people must be loving this. Older people are, oh get off my lawn, this is too crazy. But maybe the younger people might like it better? What's the reaction? >> First of all, I do a lot of it like animals. Children love animals. I do myself a lot, the maker fair, for example. The maker scene, I always say, builds cool stuff, but also see how a new generation can learn from this, so most of my designs are open source. I do a lot of lectures at maker spaces, workshops with children, kids in electronics, but also girls in programming, just to see how that goes. In a really playful way, you know? Or looking at certain topics, so robotics, or these things. So really also trying to engage that. I think, children growing up, they love this because there are so many things in the screen and as soon as that becomes physical, they really have an engagement with it. >> So the maker culture is really growing. It certainly has been one of those awesome phenomenons that we're seeing, kind of like open source decades ago. The creator culture, the maker culture, the builder culture, this is real deal. >> Yeah. >> You get consumer devices as good as the Samsung 8 here happening, >> Yeah, correct. >> Or the smart TVs, so how are you making that open? Just take one minute to describe to the folks out there who might be interested in getting involved. Is there any collaboration with universities? Is it fashion institutes? Is it on the web? >> Anouk: Yeah. >> Is it your own community share? >> Yeah, well one really big fan I am of open source. So basically, open sourcing, like sharing what you have. You can do this online at websites, you can put your codes online. And I think by sharing... >> That's your website? >> You can find on my website, there's websites like, for example, GitHub. If you have pieces of code, you put it on there, and it's free for the community to use. It's a lot about community, you know? If I would make something, I can publish online, and release step by step how to do it, where to cut the 3D printed model, where to cut the codes, and people can make an electronic ring, for example. And by seeing what kind of piece you can give away from you process, somebody else can learn from that. >> And build on top of it. >> Yeah, correct. So I grew up with, for example, Arduino, it's an open source platform board. And it's microcontroller boards that you can program. And it's open-source, sort of free for people to just work with, and it's really a big education part in there. Education can be expensive, so how can we open this up? How can we make it accessible? And I think that is really important to do. >> And this is great, because this could democratize the closed fashion industry, open up new design opportunities from anyone. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and also, a company. You don't have to open-source, but what is that little piece that you can open-source? That you can give away, that you can give to the community, or to developers, or people to play with? >> So TheCUBE team can build some Cube clothes? >> Oh yeah. (laughter) >> Lenny's like, he wants that. >> Very cute. >> So I got to ask, on the community side. Love this, love this vision, because this is kind of an open source model. >> Yeah. >> You building on the shoulders of others, you're one of the pioneers. What do you see as critical things that need to happen to continue the accelerated growth or more momentum? What would you wish to see? >> Can you give an example? >> Like, what needs to happen to continue the momentum? More people participating? More designs? >> I think... >> More contributions from donors? More academic? >> I think what happens now, for example, like a Samsung developer conferencing part of the creative trek, me and also san-lee, who gave the keynote this morning. And I think inviting more people into each other's disciplines. Samsung here is inviting the creatives into the trek. How can the fashion industry invite technology in there? The technology industry invites fashion? And all of this stuff, you know? So you can really get this melting pot of creative, to architects, to designers, to engineers, and all of that together, you know? I think that is a wonderful world that I love, and that I see much more happening. The instigation of those different disciplines together. >> I love how you have the robotics love as a kid, and you brought your fashion love together. Two disciplines, two amazing things. Advice for young girls out there today who are, maybe feeling that, you know, it's a male dominated world, or who might have an interest in robotics. Robotics clubs are hot right now. Go to all the elementary schools and high schools in America you're seeing robotics become a big deal. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> What's your advice for young girls out there who want to develop their passion? >> One thing is always follow your dream. If you want to have something... If you have something in mind, hey, I want to build an octopus dress, and it might be too far away, how can you get there? Set your goal and go towards there, find it out, be curious, see how you can build these things. And especially if people would say no? You go there to prove them wrong. So that is something that I learned. >> Don't say take no for an answer, always follow your path. >> Yeah, my ideas are very far out, very far. So I always got, oh, this and that, and I always said no. And it's always about following your passion. If there's something that's really stirring you, go find it because that is, in the end, what is driving you. It is not the money, it's not anything of that. It is your passion and something that you want to fight for. >> Find that itch to scratch, always go after what you want. Okay, so final question for you, is, in your experience with your cutting edge designs and all the work you're doing, which is phenomenal, how have you observed the user experience of the general world these days? Because certainly, mobile's out there. We see mobile, but as you start to push the boundaries in clothing that's an expression, it's a human thing, the user experience is becoming integrated. The fabric. What have you learned and observed about user's expectations for future user interfaces? >> I think haptic feedback is really interesting. Also, as soon as you have garments with things in there, the feedback that you can get from that, notifications, or you can think of different ways regarding to that, really the way we interface now with the screen, how can that be more embodied? And to embody that experience, for example, is very interesting but it's also, how can an embodied experience become an epidermis which goes into your house? How can your living accessories react to you or your moods or emotions? I think moods and emotion are a really interesting topic, which also can be much more explored regarding to interaction design and user experiences. >> It's interesting, and I'm also visualizing coolness around an automatic QR code that could tell you how I'm feeling. Stay away from me today, QR code. >> And people still need to scan you. >> We'll have an automatic scanner on there, a little Samsung scanner with facial recognition. No, this is pretty cool, so... >> But these garments are QR codes, but they are surrounding the body, they are not... They have a broader bandwidth to broadcast. >> The personal network is coming. Your personal clothing network. And thank you very much for coming on, we really appreciate it. You're doing some really amazing work and the creative boundaries you're pushing, it's really phenomenal. We're going to share the links for all your stuff with our audience, and great to see Intel helping you out and getting that spider design going. Intel's always doing cutting edge work, so it's good to see that. >> Yeah, they're awesome. >> Thanks for coming on TheCUBE, we appreciate it. Good luck with all your endeavors, appreciate it. This is TheCUBE here, breaking down the fashion tech at the edge of the network. That's the new edge, is your clothes. Be ready for disruption, it's a maker culture. Get involved, check out Anouk's website. This is TheCUBE, more live coverage from Samsung Developer Conference 2017 after this short break. (light electronic music)

>> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeffrey here with the cue, we're having acute conversation that are probably out. The studio's a little bit of a break in the conference schedule, which means we're gonna have a little bit more intimate conversations outside of the context of a show we're really excited to have. Our next guest is running $1,000,000,000 company evaluation that been added for almost 10 years. Cloud first from the beginning, way ahead of the curve. And I think the curves probably kind of catching up to him in terms of really thinking about security in a cloud based way. It's J. Charger. He's the founder and CEO of Ze Scaler. J Welcome. Thank you, Jeff. So we've had a few of your associates on, but we've never had you on. So a great to have you on the Cube >> appreciate the opportunity. >> Absolutely. So you guys from the get go really took a cloud native approach security when everyone is building appliances and shipping appliances and a beautiful fronts and flashing lights and everyone's neighborhood appliances. You took a very different tact explain kind of your thinking when you founded the company. >> So all the companies I had done. I looked for a fuss to move her advantage. So if you are first mover, then you got significant advantage. A lot of others. So look at 2008 we were goingto Internet for a whole range of service is lots of information sitting there from weather to news and all the other stuff right now on Cloud Applications. Point of view sales force was doing very well. Net Suite was doing well, and I have been using sales force in that suite and all of my start up since the year 2001. Okay, when each of them was under 10,000,000 in sales. So my notion was simple. Will more and more information sit on the Internet? Answer was yes. If sales force the nets weed is so good, why won't other applications move? The cloud answer was yes. So if that's the case, why should security appliances sit in the data? Security should sit in the cloud as well. So with that simple notion, I said, if I start a new company, no legacy boxes to what he bought, you start a clean slate, clean architecture designed for the cloud. What we like to call. Born in the cloud for a cloud. That's what I did. What >> great foresight. I mean trying in 2008 if tha the enterprise Adoption of cloud I mean sales was really was the first application to drive that. I mean, I just think poor 80 p gets no credit for being really the earliest cloud that they weren't really a solution right there. That's the service provider. But sales force really kind of cracked the enterprise, not four. Trust with SAS application wasn't even turn back back then. So So, taking a cloud approach to security. Very different strategy than an appliance. And, you know, credit to you for thinking about you know, you could no longer build the wall in the moat anymore. Creon and Internet world. Yeah. >> So my no show, no simple. The old world off security Waas What you just mentioned castle and moat. I am safe in my castle. But when people wanted to go out to call it greener pastures, right, you needed to build a drawbridge. And that's the kind of drawbridge these appliances bills. And then if you really want to be outside for business and all other reasons you're not coming in right? So notion of Castle and Motors, No good. So we said, Let's give it up. So let's get away from the notion that I must secure my network on which users and applications are sitting. I really need to make sure the right user has access to write application or service, which may be on the Internet, which may be on a public cloud, which may be a sass application like Salesforce. Or it may be the data center. So we really thought very differently, Right? Network security will become irrelevant. Internet will become your corporate network, and we connect the right user to write application, Right? Very logical. It took us a while to evangelize and convince a bunch of customers, right. But as G and Nestle and Seaman's off, the Wolf jumped on it because they love the technology. We got fair amount of momentum, and then lots of other enterprises came along >> right, right. It's so interesting that nobody ever really talked about the Internet, has an application delivery platform back in the day, right? It was just it was Bbn. And then we had a few pictures. Thank you Netscape, but really to think of the Internet as a way to deliver application and an enterprise applications with great foresight that you had there. >> Yes. So I think we built >> on the foresight off sales force in that suite and other information sources on the great. I >> came from security side off it. I built a number of companies that build and sold appliances, right. But it was obvious that in the new world, security will become a service. So think of cloud computing. People get surprised about cloud computing being big. It's natural. It's a utility service. If I'm in the business on manufacturing veg, it's a B and C. Gray computing is not my business. If just like I plug into the wall socket, get electricity right, I should be able to turn on some device and terminal and access abdication, sitting somewhere right and managed by someone right and all. So we re needed good connectivity over the Internet to do that. As that has matured over the past 10 years, as devices have become more capable and mobile, it's a natural way to go to cloud computing, and for us to do cloud security was a very natural >> threat. Right. So then you use right place right time, right. So then you picked up on a couple These other tremendous trends that that that ah cloud centric application really take advantage of first is mobile. Next is you know, B Bring your own global right B y o d. And then this this funky little thing called Shadow I T. Which Amazon enabled by having a data center of the swipe of a credit card. Your application, your technology. This works great with all those various kind of access methodologies. Still consistently right >> now. And that is because the traditional security vendors so called network security vendors but protecting the network they assumed that you sat in an office on the Net for great. Only if you're outside. You came back to the network through vpn, right? We assume that Forget the network. Ah, user sitting in the office or at home or coffee shop airport has to get to some destination over some network. That's not What about securing the net for Let's have a policy and security. It says Whether you are on a PC auto mobile phone, you're simply connecting through our security check post. Do what you want to go. So mobile and clothes for the natural. Two things mobile became the user cloud became the destination, and Internet became the connector off the two. And we became the policy check post in the middle. >> So what? So what do you do in terms of your security application? Are you looking at, you know, Mac addresses? Are you looking at multi factor authentication? Cause I would assume if you're not guarding the network per se, you're really must be all about the identity and the rules that go along with that identity. >> It's a good question, so user needs to get to certain applications, and service is so you put them into buckets. First is external service is external means that a company doesn't need to management, and that is either open Internet, which could be Google Search could be Facebook lengthen and type of stuff. Or it could be SAS applications that Salesforce offers on Microsoft Office E 65. So in that case, we want to make sure that been uses. Go to those sites. Nothing bad should comment. That means the malware stuff and nothing good chili con you confidential information. So we are inspecting traffic going in and out. So we are about inspecting the traffic, the packets, the packets to make sure this is not malicious. Okay, Now, for authentication, we use third party serves like Microsoft A D or Octagon. They tell us who the user is into what the group is. And based on that sitting in the traffic path were that I who enforce the policy so that is for external applications. Okay, the second part of the secular service, what we called the school a private access is to make sure that you can get to your internal applications. Either in your data center, all this sitting in a public cloud, such chance as your eight of us there were less. Whatever mouth we're more worried about is the right person getting to the right application and the other checks are different. There you are connecting the right parties, Okay. Unless worried about >> security, and then does it work with the existing, um, turn of the of, you know, the internal corporate systems. Who identified you? Integrate, I assume, with all those existing types of systems. >> Yes. So we look at the destination you did. Existing system could be sitting on in your data center or in the cloud. It doesn't really matter. We look at your data center as a destination. OK, we look at stuff sitting in Azure as a destiny. >> And then and then this new little twist. So obviously Salesforce's been very successfully referenced them a few times, and I just like to point to the new 60 story tower. If anyone ever questions whether people think Cloud of Secures, go look downtown at the new school. But there's a big new entrance in play on kind of the Enterprise corporate SAS side. And that's office 3 65 It's not that noone you are still relatively new. I'm just curious to get your perspective. You've been at this for 10 years? Almost, um, the impact of that application specifically to this evolution to really pure SAS base model, getting more and more of the enterprise software stack. >> So number one application in any enterprise is email >> before you gotta think that's gonna be your next started. We gotta fix today after another e >> mail calendar ring sharing files and what it used to sit in your data center and you had to buy deploy manage Sutter was with in a Microsoft exchange. So Microsoft said, Forget about you managing it. I've will manage your exchange, uh, with a new name, all 50 65 in the clout so you don't what he bought it and are You come to me and I'll take care off it. I think it's a brilliant move by Microsoft, and customers are ready to give up. The headaches are maintaining the boxes, the software and sordid and everything. Right now, when the biggest application moves the cloud, every CEO pays attention to it. So as Office God embraced the corporate network start to break. Now, why would that happen if you aren't in 50 cities and on the globe, your exchanges? Sitting in Chicago Data Center every employee from every city came to Chicago. Did know Microsoft Office. This is sun setting something. Why should every employee go to Chicago? That's the networks on and then try to go to cloud right? So they're back. Haul over traditional corporate network using Mpls technology very expensive, and then they go to them. Then they go to the Internet to go to office. If the 65 slow slow. No one likes it. Microsatellite. >> Get too damn slow >> speed. OnlyTest Fetal light. You can only go so far. It's >> not fast. If you're going around the world and you're waiting for something, I >> have to go to New York City to my data center so I could come to a local site in San Francisco. It is hard, right? Right, And that's what our traditional networks have done. That's what traditional security boxes down what Z's killer says. Don't worry about having two or three gateways to the Internet. You have as many gay tricks as your employees because every employee simply points to the Z's. Killers near this data center were the security stack. We take care of security inspection and policy, and you get to where you need to get to the fastest way. So Office 3 65 is a great catalyst for the skin. Asked customers of struggling with user experience and the traffic getting clogged on the traditional network. We go in and say, if you did local Internet breakout, you go direct, but you couldn't go direct without us because you need some security check personally. So we are the checkpost sitting 100 data centers around the globe and uses a happy customer. We are happy. >> So I was gonna be my next point. Begs the question, How many access points do you guys have just answered? You have hundreds. So you worked with local Coehlo. You got a short You got a short hop from your device into the sea scaler system and then you you're into your network. >> You know, we are deployed and 100 data center. These are generally cola is coming from leading vendors. Maybe it connects maybe level three tire cities of gold and the goal is to shorten the distance. I'll tell you two interesting anecdotes. I talked to a C i o last year. I said, How many employees do you have? He said 10,000 said, How many Internet gateways do you have? I tell you, it's safe. I he's a 10,000. I said What? He said. Every employee has a laptop and laptop goes with it. Employee goes and indirectly goes the Internet. It's a gate for you, Right? Then he said, Sorry, I'm Miss Booke. Every employee is a smartphone, and many have tablets to have 25,000 gate. So if you start thinking that way, trying to take all the traffic back to some security appliance is sitting in a data center or 10 branch offices, right? Makes no sense. So that's where we come in. And I had an interesting discussion with a very large consumer company out of Europe. I went to see them to one of her early customers. I >> met the >> head of security. I said, I'm here to understand how well these killers working. Since our security is so good, you must be loving it. He smiled, and he said, I love you security, but I love something more than your security. I said, Huh? What is that? He said. Imagine if the world had four airport hubs to connect through and you are a world traveler. You'll be missing, he said. I have 160,000 employees in hundreds, 30 countries. I have four Internet gateways with security appliance sitting there and everyone has to go to one of those four before they get out, right, so they were miserable. Now they are blogging on the Internet than entrant has become very fast, she said. As a C so I love it because security leaders are blamed for slowing you down in the name of security. Now I have made uses happy abroad in better security. So it's all wonderful. >> Hey, sounds like you're a virtual networking company that Trojan horsed in as a security company >> way. So let's put it this way. I >> mean, the value problem. Like I'm just I'm teasing you. But it's really interesting, you know, kind of twisted tale, >> so don't know you actually making a very good point. So So this is what happening Every c. I is talking about digital transformation through I t transmission Right now. If you start drilling down, what does that mean? Applications are moving in the cloud. So that's the application transformation going on because applications are no longer in your data center, which was the central gravity. If applications the move to the cloud, the network that designed to bring everything to the data center becomes irrelevant. It's no good. So no companies are transforming the data center bit. Sorry, they're transforming the network not to transform network so you could directly go to the application. The only thing that's holding you back is security, so we essentially built a new type of security, so we're bringing security transformation, which is needed. Do transform your network and transfer your application. Right? So that's why people customers who buy us is typically the head off application, head of security and head of networking. All three come together because transformation doesn't happen in isolation. Traditional security boxes are bought, typically by the security team only because they said, put a box here, you need to inspect the traffic. We go in and say the old world off ideas change. Let me help you transform to the New World. Why we call it cloned enabled enterprise, right? And that's what we come >> pretty interesting, too, when you think of the impact that not only are you leveraging us and security layer in this cloud and getting in the way of the phone traffic in the laptop traffic, but to as people migrate to Maura and Maur of these enterprise SAS APS, you're leveraging their security infrastructure, which is usually significantly bigger than any particular individual company can ever afford. >> That that's correct. So a point there so sales force an enterprise doesn't need to worry about protecting Salesforce, they need to make sure they can have a shortest path and the right user is getting so. We help as a policy jackboots in the middle, and also we make sure employees on downloading confidential customer information and sending out in Gmail to somebody else. But when applications moved to Azure or eight of us, you as an enterprise have to what he bought securing it if you expose them. If there is all to the Internet, then somebody can discover you. Somebody can do denial of service attack. So how do you handle that? So that's where we come in. We kind of say even 1,000,000,000 applications are in azure. I will give you the shortest bat with all the technology that you need to secure your internal >> happy. It's interesting because there's been recent breaches reported at Amazon, where the Emma's the eight of US customer didn't secure their own instance. Inside of eight of us, it wasn't an eight of US problems configuration problem >> or it could be the policy problem or possible. Somebody, for example, came into your data center over vpn, and once they're on you network, they can have what we call the lateral boom and they can go around to see what's out there. And they could get to applications. So we overcome all those security >> issues. Okay, so you've been at this for a while. 3 65 is a game changer and kind of accelerating as you look forward, Um, what excites you? What scares you? You know, where do you see kind of security world evolving? Obviously, you know, here in the news all the time that the attacks now or, you know, oftentimes nation states and you know it's it's the security challenges grown significantly higher than just the crazy hacker working out of his mom's basement. A CZ You see the evolution? You know what, What, what's kind of scary and what's exciting. >> I think the scary part is inertia. People kind of say this high done security than the castle and moat. That's still still because they feel like I can put my arms that only I can see the drawbridge. And I got to see the airplane right over the missing on that. So so one someone gets into your castle, you're in trouble, right? So in the new approach we advocate, don't worry about castles, and moats. The desk applications are out there somewhere. Your users are out there somewhere, right? And they just need to reach the right application. So we are focuses connecting the right people. Now, more and more devices coming in. We all here. But I owe tease out. The I. O. T. At the end of the day is a copier printer of video camera or some machine controls >> or a nuclear power plant. >> They all need to talk to something, something right if they got hijacked. You thinkyou nuclear power plant is sending information about its health to place a. But it's going to Ukraine, right? That's a problem. How do you make sure that the coyote controls in a plant are talking right parties? So we actually sit in the middle, are connecting the party. So that's another area for us. For potential, right? Looking at opportunity. >> So another big one like mobile and in 3 65 wasn't enough. Now you have I a t. >> It's a natural hanging out with you. So today, every day we see tens of thousands of cameras and copiers calling the Internet, and customers have no idea know why are they calling. Generally, there's no malicious motive. The vendor wanted to know if the toner is down or not. Are things are working fine, but they have no security control. R. C So does a demo from the Internet. He logs onto the camera, are the printer and copier and actually gets can show that information can be obtained. So those are some of the things we must control and protect. And you do it not by doing network security but a policy base access from a right device to alright, destiny. >> So, are you seeing an increase in the in the, you know, kind of machine machine? A tremendous amount of >> traffic machine to machine. So is io to traffic, and there's a machine to machine traffic. So when you have a bunch of applications said in our data center and you a bunch of applications sitting an azure eight of us, they need to talk. So lot of that traffic goes through Z Skinner. Okay, so we're long enforcing it, then you're an application that needs to go and get, say, some market pricing information from Internet. So the machine a sitting in your data center or in azure is calling someone out. There are some server to get that information. So we come in in between as a checkpost too. Have right connectivity. >> You're saying I proper. Same value difference. Very simple, but elegant. J I'm hanging out of the more you see now, the touch to nowhere to be at the right time. We're having fun. It's a great story, and and I really appreciate you taking a few minutes out of your day to stop. But I >> have a great team that makes it happen. >> That's a big piece of it. Well, and good leadership as well. Obviously >> great leaders in the company. >> All right, Thank you. J Child Reza, founder and CEO of Ze Scaler. Check it out. Thanks again for stopping by the Cube. I'm Jeff. Rick. Thanks for watching. We'll catch you next time.

>> Intro Man: From the Computer History Museum in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE, covering Food IT: Fork to Farm, brought to you by Western Digital. >> Hey, welcome back to theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin here at the FOOD IT: Fork to Farm event at the Computer History Museum talking with amazing guests, from farmers to technologists, helping to increase the sustainability and the food chain. Next, we are joined by Michiel Bakker, the Director of Google Food. Michiel, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. It's great to be here. >> Well, so we're in Google's backyard here at the Computer History Museum, and I've always heard of Google Food as fantastic. You're going to hear it here first, Michiel did invite me, I have his card. I've never been able to eat at one of the restaurants, but now I have it on film. >> Michiel: Check! (Lisa Laughs) >> So, but tell me about ... You come from a hospitality background. Google Food, what was your segue into hospitality to being the Director of Food for Google? >> So, I worked for many many great years for Starwood Hotels and Resorts. For fifteen years over in the U.S. and my last two years with them, I was responsible for Food and Beverage operation in Europe, Middle East and Africa. So ... amazing times in Europe. At the time we were building out our hotel portfolio in the Middle East, and while I was there I got this call from that company out of Mountain View, Google, and said, "Would you be interested in having a conversation "with us about our food program?" That peaked my interest. I had never heard of their food program and how they were thinking and running food, so that led to a very fascinating interview journey, and, a year after the initial call, I started over here March of 2012, and I have loved every minute of it since. >> Well, your passion I was telling you I've seen some videos of you online, and your passion for it is really clear. What was it that Google was looking for you to help facilitate five years ago? >> So, prior to my arrival, we had three great regional teams that were responsible for everything that they were doing with food in their respective regions. My bosses at the time were very aware of how we would continue to grow, and they were aware of both the challenges and the opportunities of growing our program with the same rate of the growth of Google. So they were looking for an individual who could bring structure as well as capability options for our program. So, my role was, in the beginning, to really think through "How can you get Google Food ready "for ongoing growth for a great number of years?" >> So, one of the things that's interesting about this event, and I kept thinking I was misreading the title "Fork to Farm," and we're so used to, in the trend of Farm to Table and Fork to Farm, the consumer, the tech-savvy consumer, being very influential, organic, cage-free, hormone-free. Of course, you're now at the hub of technology. Everyone in the world knows Google. Everyone's got a million devices. Talk to us about how you're using technology at Google to improve the relationships with suppliers, the type of supply of food that you get. >> Yeah. So, it starts really with the user. So, we believe that our role is to enable individuals to make personal, informed food choices. So, personalization truly has to do with how we live and work these days. It's about me. I want it now. I want it whenever I want it and whatever I want, and I think that technology can play a great role in that. So, we've developed, internally, an app that will help, actually, users to find whatever they are looking for. So that will be one. But, if you then go further back into the food chain, then you get the question, "Is there data, "technology or platforms out there that might help us "with what do we call that food transparency "or food insight." Where we can really think through: "How might we help a consumer "to determine where food is coming from?" "What is in my food?" "What are the nutrients?" and I think, just as importantly, we don't speak about this much: "Where does my food waste go to?," because we're very focused on what I get but less interested today where it is actually going to. So we're thinking through: "What can we develop internally?" "What is already available "in the broader Google or Alphabet portfolio?" If you think about Google Search, if you think about Youtube, there are a lot of platforms or tools out there that can help individuals to make those informed food choices. And then, I think, what is harder, if you go further up the food chain, in really determining how can you trace a product from the farm or from the boat all the way back up to the consumer, and I think that is a journey that many partners, many stakeholders in the food system continue to work on. >> That's a big challenge because there's a tremendous amount of money that can be lost. I was reading that California supplies 90% of the world's almonds, and in the last three years there's been over 35 truckloads of almonds that have disappeared. >> Michiel: Yeah. >> And the trace-ability being a massive challenge, and that's tantamount to 10 million dollars. But you touched on something really interesting, and that's the personalization. We want it with everything, right? We are so tech-enabled and tech-savvy and ... we want it. You mentioned transparency. That's essential. So, talk to us about what is it that you're learning from, so I presume it's an app that Googlers have access to. How are you using that big data and analytics to influence the next generation of Google Food? >> So we'll think to the beginning of that. So, with the Eat app, that's the app we have internally, you have a profile as well, and you can set up your profile in such a way about the foods you like and the foods you like to avoid. So, you can apply the filters. So, what we now get the more people within our organization that would use the app the better insight we're going to get off. What ultimately, what percentage, is vegetarian, or what percentage is actually vegan or flexitarian? So, we get a better insight of where do you have what percentage of your population sit, so you can ultimately develop offerings that resonate with your population. >> And, so, you also talked about food waste. I was reading a McKinsey & Company report that reports that about one third of all food produced in the world is lost or wasted, which accounts for about 940 billion dollars world wide. And we kind of think, oh, we get a little, me, overzealous at the grocery store. We have these plans. So, how are you using the data that you're gathering from your Eat app to reduce food waste across Google? >> We don't really use that app for that yet, but we're working with the great company called LeanPath. So, LeanPath is a technology platform company that enables you to track food waste in a kitchen environment. So, every time when a chef throws something out, we wait, we take a picture of it, and we tag it, and as a result of having done that now for a couple of years, we have a very large global database with these food waste moments, and then what you can do in an individual kitchen you can analyze of actually what is driving food waste in your kitchen. And I think what we've learned, Two things happened: so the first one is, because you're paying attention to food waste, you get the Hawthorne Effect. People pay more attention to it, and, as a result of that, you will reduce food waste with that, but, secondly, you have ultimately learned of what is driving food waste in a specific kitchen. And then, I think, with that we've learned, as well, that it becomes complex. For example, we really would like our users, the rest of the world, to eat more vegetables and more fruit. So, we've learned that in our kitchens a big part of our food waste is driven by vegetables. So, now you get these two interesting conflicts, because you can say that on the one hand, if I want to reduce food waste, I should actually be scrappier with the vegetables, but, at the same time, we would like our users to eat more vegetables, so, ultimately, what is more important? And I think with that we've learned it's about the value of the product and then to think through we're probably better off focusing on reducing the waste of meat, versus ultimately reducing the waste of a carrot. The environmental impact of meat is significantly larger and, therefore, you need to, ultimately, focus your efforts on where can you make the biggest impact within the available capacity that you have. >> Now, have you, this is so interesting. Have you gone on, like, the speaking circuit to educate other, not just tech companies or businesses that want to scale, but there could be so much from the learning that you've done with big data and analytics to educate other businesses, even down to the farms. Is that something that's part of your ... >> So, our team and I would actually attend, will attend, various conferences around the world, but I think we're very focused on learning more and making a bigger impact and then sharing at the right opportune moment, because you can spend your whole life chatting about what you have done or are thinking of doing. Ultimately, we're an organization that is feeding a lot of individuals on a daily basis in a very responsible way, and we're going to learn more. We're only at the beginning of figuring out where we can make a bigger impact. >> And ... How have you been able to facilitate this scale? You were mentioning, before we went live, when you started, five years ago, the number of people you fed then that you feed now. How has cloud computing, big data, analytics, machine learning helped drive that scale that Google wanted to see? >> So, I think we are very focused on collaboration. So, it's actually finding partners who are either just as excited about the opportunities, are better at what you do, and are willing to do stuff together. Because, I think, by working more with others, you increased your overall reach, you'll learn more together, and, therefore, you become better at what you do. So, I think an interesting opportunity for us is we're feeding a wide variety of teams at Google and Alphabet on a daily basis, and they are engaged with food. So, sometimes you find a team or an individual that might not necessarily be as focused on food, but they're looking actually in an real world challenge that they can use for their emerging technologies. So, you can find different starting points to ultimately bring people together to address a common challenge. Food waste is an interesting one. So, we now have the database, and now the question is; how might you deploy machine learning to learn stuff you've never thought about? We're at the beginning of that, so, we have a long way to go. >> Beside food waste, what's, maybe, kind of the next thing on your horizon for the rest of 2017 to influence? >> How can you move your population to move to more balanced, planned, forward diet but do it in such a way where people actually are willingly and excitingly joining you on the journey, versus it getting stuck in the conversation as you're telling me what I cannot do, or you're taking something away from me. So, it really becomes: how can you make the alternative, which might be a cuisine type, or a concept where meat is not necessarily the center of the plate, just as exciting, or if not more exciting, than what we're doing as of today. >> Wow, so interesting. Well, I'm looking forward to my lunch with you at one of the Google restaurants. Michiel, thank you so much for joining us here and sharing what you're doing at Google. >> It's been a pleasure. >> And we want to thank you for watching as well. Again, Lisa Martin live at the FOOD IT: Fork to Farm event in Silicon Valley. Stick around. We'll be right back. [futuristic music]