(upbeat music) >> From New York, it's the Cube covering escape nineteen. (upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome back to the cube coverage here in New York city for the first inaugural multi-cloud conference called escape 2019, I'm John Furrier host of the Cube, we're here with Natalie Gholmieh who's the data manager of data and integration services at the university of California, San Diego campus, office, >> sprawling data center, >> Yes (laughing) >> tons of IT, a lot of challenges. Welcome. >> Yeah, thank you for having me. >> So, thanks for taking the time out, you're a practitioner, you're here. Why are you at this conference, what are you hoping to gain from here? What interests you here at the multi-cloud escape conference. >> This conference is very much within the spirit of what we're trying to do. Uh- we- our CIO has directives which is, to avoid locking and to do multi-vendor orchestration um, an, uh, to go with containers first and open source wherever possible. So- and, I, this conference pretty much speaks to all of that. >> So, this is a really interesting data point because it seems the common thread is data and cloud is an integration thing so people are trying to find that integration point so they can have multiple vendors, multiple clouds. It seems like the multi-vendor were all back in the old days where you had multiple vendors, had a regimeous environment, data seems to be the lynch pin in all this. That's what you do- >> Right. >> How do you think about this because it used to be the big database ran the world, now you have lots of databases. You have applications, >> Right. >> they're everywhere now. >> Yeah, data is born in multiple systems but the data is also an asset right now, to all of the organizations including the university so, um, what we want to try to accomplish is to, uh, get all of this data possibly in one place or in multiple places and to be able to, to do analytics on top of this and this is what the value added processing over the data. >> What's exciting to you these days in the university? You guys try to change the business, what, what- it could be technology. What are the cool things that you like that you're working with right now or that you envision emerging? >> Yeah, so my team is currently building a platform to do an integrat- um, all of the data integration and we are planning to offer, this platform as a service to Developers to streamline and standardize, application development as well as integration development within the central IT of university. So this is pretty much the most exciting thing that we're doing is putting together this platform that is quite complex It is a journey that we're taking Together with the people who are already operating existing systems, and so we are putting this new thing that we're operating in parallel and we will be migrating to that new platform over time. >> I'm sure containers are involved >> Troupernetties >> Yes >> To be part of it >> Mhm, Mhm, yeah so the platform has two parts There is the application, publishing with Gooddoctrine troupernetties And we have also the streaming side of it Where to build the data pipeline with open source tools like ApacheNinefive and Apache kafka. So um yes So this is going to be wiring the data pipelines from source to target and moving the data in real time In order to- >> And you see that as a nice way to keep uh an option to move from cloud to cloud >> Potentially since the platforms role is to decouple the infrastructure from devolepment that way you could spin a portion of the platform on any cloud pretty much and run your workload. Anywhere you want. >> So classic Dev ops, Separate infrustracture as code provide a codified layer >> Yeah, Yeah >> So let me ask you a question, How did you get into all this data business? I mean what attracted you to the data field? What's your story? Tell us your story. >> Ah, so the data, you know, I personally started I mean I was I had more of a networking background and then I became a sys Admin and then I got into the business of logging and log aggregation for machine data And then I was you know using that Data to create Dashboards of system health and you know data correlation and this is what exposed me, personally, first to the data world. And then I saw the value in, in doing all of this With data and the value is even more impactful to the business, when you're working with actual business data. And then Right so I'm very excited about that. >> So you were swimming in the first data lake before data lakes were data lakes. >> Yeah, right, for machine data >> And once you're in there you see value Data exhaust comes in as we used to say back in the day. During the Hedupe days. Data exhaust. So now that you're doing the business value is the conversations the same, or are they different conversations? Or is it still the same kind of data conversation? What's, or is the, job the same? Because you still have machine data applications are throwing off data. >> Right >> You have infrastructure data being thrown off You have new abstrac-New software layers >> Yes >> Is it the same or is it different? Describe the current situation. >> Eh, you know, maybe the concepts are the same Uh, but I think the, the logging machine data has more value to IT to give incites on how to improve your, uh SLA's and your you know within the scope of IT. But the business data really will impact the business, the whole entire University for us. So, One of the things we're doing on the business side with the business data is to provide some analytics on students um, the student data in order to um, increase their chances for success so getting all of that data. Doing some reports and pattern analytics. And then yeah, and then coaching students. >> Not a bad place to live in San Diego. >> Oh It's excellent >> Isn't it, the weather's always perfect >> Oh yeah. >> The marine layers not as bad L.A. you know, or is it? >> Yeah we do have a good. University- >> The marine layer. >> University is right on the coast. So yeah, sometimes its gloomy the whole entire day. = [John] Yeah, I love it there I wish I could have gone to school at the university of San Diego >> It is great, It's a great place to be >> Love to go see my friends at Lajolla Del mar. >> Yeah >> Beautiful areas, >> Yup >> Great country. Well thank you for coming on, and sharing your insights into multi-cloudism and that thinking. It seems you're very foundational right now. In this whole thinking there's no master plan yet. People are really having good conversations around how to set it all up. >> Yup >> The architecture, >> Right >> The role, >> Yup >> You see the same thing? >> Yes architecture is actually a very essential piece of it because you need to plan before you go if you go without planning I think your bill is going be Up the roof, so it yeah >> So you'll sink in the quicksand of the data lake And get sucked into the data swamp >> Yeah, Right, yeah so, architecture is a big piece of it Design, and then build and then continuous improvement That's a huge thing at UC of San Diego >> You know what I get excited about, Is I get excited about real time, how real time, time series data is becoming a big part of the application development and understanding the context between good data and bad data, is always a hard problem a hard tech problem6. >> Yeah that is true, yeah their are a lot of processes that, uh should be set around the data to make sure that data is clean, and it's, a good data set and all that >> If data's an asset then does it have a value? Does it have a balance sheet? Should we value the data? Is some data more valuable then others? That's a good question, huh >> That is a good question, but I don't know the answer to that. >> No one knows it's like we always ask the question I think that's going to, I think that's a future state where at some point data can be recognized but right now it's hard to tell what's valuable or not. >> I think the value is in the return services And the value added services, that you As an organization, can bring to your customer base. This is where the value is and if you want to put a dollar amount on that, eheh, I don't know It's not my job >> And of course multiden here, Multi-clouds All have it and of course thank you so much for coming on Special time conversation. Keep conversation here theCube coverage. Of the first inaugural multi-cloud conference call to escape nineteen. Where the industry best are coming together practitioners, entrepenures, founders, executives and thought leaders, talking about what multi-cloud really can be and foundationally what it needs to be in place and this is what happens here at these conferences Tons of hallway conversations Natalie thank you for spending the time. Cube coverage. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (simple upbeat music)

from New York it's the cube covering escape 19 okay welcome back to the cube coverage New York City for the inaugural multi-cloud conference the first one ever in the industry is called escape 2019 we're in New York so escapee from New York City from cloud that's the conversation all the thought leaders are here and executives people thinking about the next generation architecture and top tracks are all here if it's Wednesday who's the chief information security officer for Flextronics flex let's thank you for coming on love to have see so some because security seems to be there always a top conversation you got a very busy job I do yes you heard a lot of pressure all the time it's fun it's so fun for me so yeah as a Caesar and it's always like security stop in mind right of everyone out these days yeah and it's very sir one of the most interesting job I think most of the interesting for my trophies I learned so much about our business and they have insight into so many things that's actually really great you know one of the things I was just talking about on the kind of cube conversation was you know how date is really important part of it and how data backup and recovery was built on old thinking around you know data centers failing floods hurricanes electricity gets outages but the biggest disruption in business today is security security threats and so that's the cyber security pressure it's causing CISOs to to be mindful of the best architecture the best platform do we have the right tools so I wanna get your thoughts how are you thinking about that as an organization because you are you building in-house developers are you how you how are you organizing how are you gearing up to fight the battles that need to be fought so I am and I'm with the company so if Lex is a big manufacturing company right 26 billion so we have a lot of p2p business not consumer business which is I believe a different perspective of security versus actually like a consumer company facing so and I'm if in a security team for 15 years so we put it up like security operations and the orders kind of things really right we're old school I am what school learnt everything in that right but you a lot of IOT I mean you just really achieve oh yeah Industrial tea it's one of the topic but coming back to you you're right data is actually the center in Flour business data is getting more center right you collect data from the machine you collect data actually for the business actually to make more decisions right and could be predictive maintenance could be inventory management there could be a lot of things right you have to think about it so and the funny thing is I'm real I'm the seasonal for five years 15 years with the security team 20 years with the company so I rebuilt the team always like every three four years you like it's a kind of rebirth of the team we renew we add new skills right and cloud is one of the things which I think it's a fundamental change and the change is actually with it's actually on the development side what it means with that it's a security team has to move to serve the developers and the problem if the wood school was always like it's after sort so why I secured to such an issue because we had to do patching after we found vulnerabilities right and then old network is unsecure you need to wrap something around that like we did firewall so it was always an after sort now with the cloud it's changing because you have a lot of different things to do but basically we need to enable developers to be very quick and deploy their software very quickly so you know it is a fundamental change in the way you have to think the particular yeah and then that brings up the good question love to ask you because given you guys again not a consumer like Capital One yeah they don't challenge they got they weren't hacked Amazon actually the firewall was misconfigured an s3 bucket but that's a consumer company you have data though you're an industrial company got a lot of industrial IOT ransomware folks are targeting data yes and everyone's a target it's your surface area is large but you probably lock that down in the past so how are you thinking about all this new stuff so yeah I mean IOT it's I mean I would tease the problem as you said Industrial right it's not solved yet completely right because they still have to rethink a lot of the vendors providing this machinery which you've purchased for 25-30 years right this Silla wood school right sometimes like the one witness you can't upgrade or whatever such basic things they'd be lacking actually in terms of security there still has to be a shift in this you know not just in the industry but in a general thinking how you do that yes I have a big environment so we locked it down we use a lot of innovative technologies actually preventive measurements was also detected measuring and you need to create kind of mightily a concept where you actually start okay what is if this figures how we test it okay this face do we have other measurements where we can try to prevent measure stop those kind of things right but Wrentham is a big one there's other things as you know like hacking I mean they're kept in I was healing probably the capital one was an interesting money my I believe in that for the cloud its configuration issues right which I think it comes with cloud security it's about policy and configuration management right how you manage that and how you think about it but it's not it was not a nation gonna solve that I mean that's a open s3 bucket that's trivial I wasn't a big yes and no you look if you look at that it was a little bit more in detail so it was actually the back firewall was misconfigured which is a mod security running on a fresh air but the Miss configuration was actually a SS as server surgery force request issue which means like you tricked this firewall in giving you information you shouldn't give you so it was a little bit more granular as people think it was right just as free pocket configuration so it was a little bit more greener but I think that's the word the difficult comes about it which every security it's a complex problem right it's the many things you have - configuration error it was a configuration dumb as an s3 bucket no it was not rounded more sophisticated but not that sophisticated was it yellow what the change I would not sophisticated but something it's not easy to solve so you have to think about it but you're right it's still something exploit from a corner case it's still something you could have I mean I I'm careful to say you could have avoided yes you could because that's for sure but I know it's a complex environment right I'm not a human as humans involved and I know I don't know that eaters exactly we only know that once it's published right so it's very hard to to charge well let's bring some cloud security so let me ask you on multi-cloud this is a multi cloud conference what's your definition of multi-cloud how do you look at the multiple clouds for me more debris cloud is actually doesn't matter we had the good keynote where I said it's a bunch of service right that's how I see my two cloud it's a bunch of service could be my data centers in the public cloud data centers with different vendors that's what a cow is where I move my services should be actually independent from the public hybrid on-premise whatever it is right that's basically how I see it so it doesn't matter it's infrastructure on demand leverage it leverage it it could be say hey today I spin off this test server but you know what today it seems to be a cheaper all running on the Eva Lovelace versus CPC let's do it here next day next week we might do it somewhere else whatever you trigger whatever what is your requirements so you'd only look at that resource that like that how do you think about the cloud security then because the configurations compliance how do you how do you stay on top of that so that's an interesting thing because we a big enterprise but we as you said know consumer business so our problem is to find the right skill set to attract the right people to our company to do that right because this is our we have some cloud but it's not yet there's a journey we are trying to do as most of the enterprise so we're looking into startups managed services we say okay where are the gaps where we have to really have to outsource some of the things and gaps where we need to get information what's your advice to other CISOs out there that are in the b2b space of none other deal to consumer but I have to get serious that is now becoming more industrialized on the IOT side because you guys have been you know been there done that you have a big footprint on the IOT because you're history but as people get more facilities and they have more virtual offices more people working the edge is extending what's your advice to those CEOs who have to deal with this industrial and IOT edge I think you have to visibility is the key ingredient is first right if you don't know what you have it's very hard to understand what's the risk portfolios right so you need to find the right to set and don't believe you know what they have it's fantastic what you see when you use the right tool what this is everything is connected I mean basically even like I found like this coffee market I connect the devices right it's like like everyone just don't understand like it's kind of light poles get both wake multi-threaded processor what is that doing so there's I mean but visibility is a key ingredient so you have to understand and then you have to look into how you might take a terrace what is your risk about it right I mean if the coffee mug goes down I don't really care but if my testicles sound and I shut down the production I really care about that so you need to understand that risk and say how can i mitigating risk so while I got you here what's your final question what's your message to suppliers out there that all want to sell you something they want to sell you another tool you know an another tool you know I got a platform I got a tool you mean this here 750 which is existing now like the cybersecurity if you go to I say conferences unbelievable right it's like I want to sell you something you're the top dog I use shrinking suppliers down are you looking at some sort of standard API way to deal with them because you know you're obviously probably thinking about platforming and data visibility is critical what's your philosophy on how to support medieval suppliers so usually honestly the most time I really go in so for innovative technology we built in our company our so-called strategic partnership program were being it for startups and most of the time we engage we start of services or through other channels right but you get introduced and you review with a proof of concept of value the technology and we try to keep it like as a minimum value product very short time and say okay let's show what you can where your gaps are and can we get with you guys and come and get you but don't send me an email don't call me because I usually not react I have a job to do so that's most of the time where the disease were what comes all of the guys that hey I found another scissors tell me there's great technology you should look into that and what shows do you go to what events do you hang out and what are good events for you in this in the space RSA Red Hat black depth on are there certain events that you go to that you think are valuable I mean it's easily I go to the to the RSA Conference ership because actually it's very close to me as well yeah and being part being out of Santa C I recommend the b-sides actually I like the peace sign that these guys are great the pieces are great I think they are real value and then I try to a smaller circus I'd be a fun person around papers there's b-sides for folks watching is an alternative group of community industry participants they have kind of a b-side of a side like an album but it's essentially community event they do hackathons and variety of other cool things where people get together very unstructured kind of cool conference addition to bigger conferences I can't recommend desk yeah bitch thanks for coming on and sharing your insights there's pleasure there's a cube coverage here in New York City we're not escaping from the University escape conference the first multi-cloud conference in the industry we'll see how it goes if they're successful they might be back next year if not they won't be but I think multi-class here today what do you think okay great thanks for coming on I'm John Fourier thanks for watching

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE. Covering ESCAPE/19. >> Everyone, welcome to theCUBE coverage here in New York City for the ESCAPE Conference 19. This is the inaugural event for multicloud, I think it's the first industry event for, really talking about multicloud and the impact to enterprises and public cloud. My next guest is Steve Mullaney, President and CEO of Aviatrix, storied career in tech, been there done that, seen many waves of innovation. Nicira, Palo Alto Networks, and now Aviatrix. You retired for a while, welcome back! >> I did, yeah, five years, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> It's nice to have you on because I think you have a good perspective on the multicloud because you've been in the industry since the 80s. We've both been broke in at the same time. And we've seen the waves. >> Oh, yeah. >> This wave is bigger than, I think, most of the other waves combined because it brings together so many things, infrastructure, software, cloud scale, and a new modern application environment. And then you complicate everything by throwing IoT out there, edges being pushed to their boundaries, securities equations changed, all this is going on right now, all at the same time. >> No, and that's why I was basically retired for five years, and I was at Nicira, we got bought by VMware, I stayed there for a couple years, and I just said, "Okay, that's it!" I've had a good career and I'm done. And about a year ago, the world changed. And it felt like on a Tuesday morning, I noticed enterprises really, we'd been talking about cloud for 12 years. And five years ago they said, "We're coming in, we're going to do it," but they didn't really mean it. But about a year ago, all in the same day, every enterprise said, "No, now we actually mean it." And I don't know why, I don't know if it was just people retired or just five years of talking about it, they all decided, we're comin' in, and enterprises all moved together. And this wave, as you said, is bigger than, I was around in 1992, in the early 90s, in the movement from mainframe to client server. This is 10 times bigger than that. And more importantly, it's going to happen 10,000 times faster. Because (fingers tapping). What's that? I just deployed 62 data centers around the world. Because if I can leverage the greatest infrastructure built, basic infrastructure of the hyperscalers, AWS, Azure, Google, Alibaba, Oracle, you name it. It's unbelievable the velocity at which you can now start deploying. >> Steve, I think you're onto something big here, and this is why I'm here at this event and why I'm excited, that a lot of the industry thought leaders and practitioners and leaders are doing this event. Small events, inaugural, but I think it has a lot of links. Because there's a lot of tell signs that I like to look at, one is cloud. I've been covering Amazon eight years now, with theCUBE, I've known AWS since it started, and I've done many startups in its launch using AWS. But I've had many conversations with Andy Jassy, one on ones, privately, I got an exclusive coming up for re:Invent with him. I've gotten to know him. It started out, "Everyone's moving to the cloud. "Every data center's not going to exist." And then, you know-- >> Oh, maybe not, yeah, yeah. >> Maybe not, we'll do an output. So I challenged him last year, I said, "Andy, come on, dude, like you were saying like a year ago that." >> Steve: Yeah, it's all AWS or nothing. >> And he said, "John, look I'm not, "I just listen to the customers." And I interviewed him when he did the VMware deal. And he's very customer focused. And when they make these moves with outpost, and I think it's going to be a hybrid message this year at re:Invent, you know it's real. >> Steve: Oh, yeah. >> I think this validates your point, so I got to ask you, what specifically do you see the formula being for multicloud, because certainly everyone's recognized that there's a huge benefit for AWS. But from a scale standpoint, so why not use that? What's going on on the Enterprise on-premise that's making this new thing work? >> I think it all starts with architecture, like anything else. I think right now, enterprises have said, "Okay, we've burned a boat, right? "Now, we're not going to get rid of our data centers, "but in terms of our strategic investment, "we are moving into the cloud. "We are going to leverage "the infrastructure of the hyperscalers. "And whether that is just one hyperscaler, or multiple." And I have not met an enterprise who thinks there only going to be one, right, every single one of them. Now, I don't think they're moving workloads across, I don't think that. I think they see that, I'm going to use Google for AI, I'm going to use AWS because it started there. I'm going to use Azure, for Office 365, and other different things, and everything in infrastructure is always multi. It's never homogeneous, right, it's always that. So I think is going to happen, and I think what people are begging for right now, is, I want to build an architecture that gives me the optionality to be able to deliver a common set of services whether I'm on AWS or multiple clouds. And I want them to be my services and I don't want to have understand the low level abstractions and constructs of each of those clouds, because their all different. One's metric, one's U.S., one's some other weird thing. And I don't have the time, the people, or the resources to be able to do that. Give me a common set of services, that are my services, that I can deploy and abstract away the details of those public clouds. >> Yeah, it's an interesting point there, in fact, I called BS on multicloud last year when it started to kind of rear it's head, I'm like, "Come on, multicloud is bullshit." And I said that on theCUBE. And here's what I meant. Multicloud as an operating model is directionally correct, but the architecture hasn't shown where there's true multicloud. Now, the fact of the matter is, people have Amazon, people have Office and Office 365, that's technically two clouds, >> They're siloed, yeah. >> If they give us Google, that's three clouds. >> I use two or three clouds. >> So, if he have three clouds, I guess they have multiple clouds. But you bring up an interesting point, and going back as a student of the history of tech industry, multi-vendor has been a big deal. >> It is a big deal. >> And like you said, there will be a multi-vendor world, that will happen. The question is how. How do you guys see it happening? >> Well I think what's-- >> Your company is attacking this Aviatrix. >> What's interesting is, so now you think about from a customer perspective which, I do the same thing, same thing with AWS. It's always outside in. Okay, I'm thinking as a enterprise IT person. I'm making the move. Do you believe that your basic infrastructure will lever the hyperscalers, or will you build an on-prem? Everyone says, "I believe that's the way I'm going to go." Great, how do I do that? So, I'm a IT architect, who do I go to to help me? Do I go to CISCO? No. The most shocking thing for me, of the six months I've been at Aviatrix, is that word's never used. It's like it was DEC or IBM in the conversation, when you were talking about client-server, no, why would you? CISCO, Juniper, Arista, any of the networking people, not even in the conversation. VMware, not really in the conversation. So, I don't have any incumbent vendor that I can go to that I used to go to. >> Why aren't they in the conversation? 'Cause of the commodity, they've been extracted away? >> I think it's just because it's the innovation of dilemma. Right, once you're selling a lot of stuff into on-prem, to then go and say, I mean you look at Palo Alto Networks, they're trying to make that transition. Acquiring a bunch of companies, VMware acquiring a bunch of companies. Why are they doing that? Because they know, I got to get off on-prem, everything's going in the cloud. >> So it's a legacy. >> It's a legacy thing, and I think what happens is, there is only one reason, and one reason only, an enterprise customer is not using Aviatrix. 'Cause they never heard of us. That's why, that's the only reason. Once they hear about what they're doing, my God. >> Well, give the plug, talk about the company, what do you guys do-- >> So we deliver, I mean it sounds like I made it up for this conference, but actually this conference was perfect for this. It's networking and security services for the multicloud enterprise. And we're building an architecture, that people can deploy, that will give them this common architecture across all the different clouds. So whether you're just using one cloud or multiple, it doesn't matter, it's the same set of security and networking services. And we do that by embracing and extending the basic constructs that AWS, Google, Azure, and Oracle, and all the other clouds will give you, and to deliver that real enterprise class. Because the other thing we've found is, everyone thinks that the cloud gives you everything and anything you will ever need from networking and security. Let's say AWS, they're going to do everything I need. What the enterprises are figuring out, is once they start going in, what they realize is, it's created for the low-level common basic constructs. And the enterprise starts at, well, I need these BGP feature because guess what, the data center is not going away. And I need more than a hundred route limitations, and I need, all of a sudden there's fifty different limitations AWS will give me. Well, they didn't talk about that! Well, of course they're not going to talk about that. They are just going to go check, check, check, we solve all your problems. As enterprises now move in, with mission critical applications, they're realizing, I need the same level of networking and security services that I had on-prem. I can't get that with the native constructs. So where do I go? That's what we do, so we fill in, we embrace what we can of those constructs, we fill in holes where there are fill in holes. And then we give you the mechanism to be able to orchestrate that across the global network. >> So you operationalize the hyperscale clouds for enterprise, >> Yes. >> that's basically what you do. >> Steve: Exactly, for the enterprise. >> Yeah, exactly. >> On the level that they need. >> So you get the benefits of the cloud, but all those nuances under the cover details like networking and other features you abstract that away and provide an operating model for enterprise compliments. >> And the beautiful thing about it is the velocity, at which we can, we're over the top, effectively over the top. We're integrated into the Cloud Suite, understand what cloud native, we understand all the constructs of accounts, and all the things we need to do. But what we expose to the customer, to the enterprise, is a set of over-the-top services that just work. >> Okay Steve, so I got to ask you, since we are at The Multi-Cloud Conference. What is multicloud, I mean how do you define it, you laid out a pretty compelling architecture of what needs are, levers in the cloud, and on-prem is what Aviatrix does. But what is the definition, how should people understand what is multicloud? >> I think for us, for networking and security in that base, so we're basic infrastructure. We get out there first, right? So, if you're going to build a city, you don't start putting people there first the first thing, if you do it right, is you get sewers, you get electricity, gas, roads, all that. Networking and security, infrastructure, is basic infrastructure goes out first. And you want to create an architecture that's going to live with you for twenty years. You don't want to have to rip up the roads and put the sewers in later. And that architecture needs to be multicloud because, even though you think maybe, most of our customers are 90% AWS right now. But every single one of them say, "But I'm moving to Azure, I'm moving to Google, "I've got retail customers that won't allow me "to put my infrastructure on AWS." Or, "I have machine learning, AI type apps on Google." They all say that same thing. But what they all then say to us, is, "You're going to be the mechanism "upon which I'm going to be able to deploy "this common set of services." So they don't need to know that. >> All right, give an example of a customer you guys have, name a name, we had a customer on stage here-- >> Steve: So, Jefferies. >> John: They did this for a use case. >> Yeah so, Jefferies. Financial Services Institution, lots of requirements, Mark Leon Soon is going to be on stage with me tomorrow. We started working with them about nine months ago. Exactly the same thing, they said, "Okay, you know what? "We need to start moving to the cloud, "we've got to start leveraging the cloud. "But, it's too complicated, right? "Even AWS, says 'Go Build.' "I don't want to go build, I want to consume services. "But they don't have all the service that I needed, "they're too low a level. "They're very high function, high enterprise requirements." So they start using us to orchestrate things, to provide transit networking, to provide egress filtering out to the Internet, we have high performance encryption, AWS will only offer it one gig. We can offer it to 10, 20, 30, 40 gig. So they start deploying, they start realizing all the things we do. Then they go and say, "I want to bring my Palo Alto Networks firewall "into the cloud." When you start looking at that, 'cause then guess what? All my policies, I want the same level that I have on-prem when I'm in the cloud. If I go try to bring in my VM series into AWS the construct that AWS give you, they cause you limitations in performance, in visibility, It's integration hassles, there's performance, sustainability, visibility issues, they force you to use SNAT. And there's all these issues, and they go, "Oh my God, this is a pain in the ass." We solved all that for them. We basically cloudify the VM series for them, so all those limitations go away. So that's just another use case that they use. Now they start looking, and they say, "Okay, now I'm going to start extending into other clouds and I want to use you as the common frame point, the common pane of glass. >> Well Steve, good luck in your venture, you're back in the saddle again. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Another ride here, you feel good about it? >> This is going to be the best, the biggest that I've been, and I was at Palo Alto Networks and VMware Nicira. And this one's going to be bigger than both of those. >> What's your vision for where this is going to be for you, where do you see the company in a few years, what are some of the outcomes you expect to happen? >> Our opportunity, and I look at it as, someone's going to take this opportunity, and the reason I came back is, why not us, someone's going to take it. And the opportunity, honestly, is to become, effectively, what Cisco was in the early 90's. To define the architecture, the networking and the security infrastructure architecture for enterprise customers. They are begging for that right now, that's our opportunity. >> Cloud Interoperability. >> Interoperability, yeah. And so there's so many things that we need to go and do. When you look at also the thing that people are going to say, the operations. So many people think, I want it the same as it was on-prem. I think with the cloud, and across multicloud you can do it right with us, and actually better. Because the visibility that you get is more, than what you get on-prem. >> Well, and the thing that's interesting that's different about this new world that we're talking about is that there is going to be constant improvements in new things which means that the functionality game is going to increase, which means the agility is even more important because the apps are going to have more things to do. >> Yeah. I mean in the end, why do you want to go to cloud? I want to go to cloud 'cause I want it to be self-service and I want agility. I want my developers, I want everybody to be able to do things quicker because all of the sudden they say, "Let's go roll this out", and you want to be able to do it. >> Well, good luck on the new venture, Aviatrix, check 'em out, hot multicloud startup, growing, how many people do you have, put the plug in, >> 100. >> what are you guys looking for, are you hiring, give me a quick plug. >> We just hired a new VP at World Wide Sales, James Winebrenner, who was Viptela CEO, VP Sales in Cisco, hiring a tremendous amount of sales guys right now, we're closing on a $40 million Series C round next week, and we're hiring a lot of people. >> Good luck, we'll be following you Steve, thanks for coming on and sharing your insights. Again, multicloud, this is a shift that's happening, multicloud is just another word for multi-vendor, in a new modern era, this is what it has been in the technology industry, but a whole new world. This is theCUBE coverage here in New York City, ESCAPE/19, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCube. Covering Escape/19. (techno music) >> Yeah, welcome back to theCube's coverage here in New York City for the first ever inaugural multicloud conference called Escape 2019, escape, we're in New York, we're not escaping from New York, we're escaping from the cloud. Jim Walker, Vice President of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs, the custodian/founders of Cockroach Database. Welcome back, good to see you. >> Congratulations on your new role, new gig. Been there for a while? >> Yeah it's been a while since I've seen you, John, I've jumped out of the data space and into Kubernetes, and so, yeah, I landed at Cockroach Labs about a year ago. And having fun. >> It's interesting, the game is still the same, data is still the same as a value proposition, but software. >> Yeah. >> Data is now code, data is looking, interacting with software, data control planes, data layers, data lakes. All this is an evolution of stuff we were talking about back in the open source days at Hortonworks. The data is in motion, data in flight, data at rest, data is continuing to be critical in automation, security, every single app. >> Yeah, it's at the center of the big battle right now, right, there's this like... I just sense there's a larger battle going on for the platform right now, and the platform is being battled out by these large public cloud providers, and it's who can get compute, who can get actually, you know, people, residents in their cloud. Data has always been the centerpiece of that. Data is gravity, if it was on, before it was on-premise, so the battle was in-house at all these people and now it's like how do we get this stuff to move over. >> Yeah, we were talking before you came on camera, it helps we talk online a lot, and have a lot of connected friends in the cloud native space, but now that Cloud 2.0 has arrived, where it's enterprise hybrid, people are starting to get excited about that, you're seeing the re-platformization or refactoring or whatever word you want to use, a modern enterprise architecture, that has the best of cloud native, has the best of what the enterprise used to do with comput-- like mini-computers, whatnot, now packaged up an operating model. This modernization trend is hitting everything, note, developers, security, this is kind of where you're playing right now. Look what Google's done with Spanner database and where that's all come from in these kinds of large-scale data problems. Modernization's here, what's your take on this? >> Yeah, I know this is modernization, but it's stuff we've been doing for a long time. It's like, you know, I was talking to Steve Mulaney earlier, Steve's brilliant, right, and Steve's talking about 1992 we saw this transition to kind of client server. I've never seen anything like this trans... This transition and this modernization is much bigger than any of the other trends that we've been through. Back when we were talking before it was the Hadoop game, and we were talking modern data architecture, how do we actually transform the way we thought about data from these kind of single stovepipes of data into larger data lakes and this sort of thing. That was the beginning. What we're seeing this time though is a massive transformation up and down the stack of which data is one huge, massive piece of that. And as we know, man, data has gravity and it's at the center of this battle again. >> What's your definition of multicloud? We're at the first ever multicloud conference, what is multicloud? >> You know I get asked this a fair amount, so as I was looking for speakers it was like, "Well, what do you mean, a multicloud conference, what does that even mean?" There's a lot of people, multicloud unbelievers. I think we already live in a multicloud world. I think hybrid cloud is just multicloud. I talked to a lot of people through the CFP process for the conference. I had guys who were running edge computing platforms saying, "Talk to me about this", I'm like, "Well, if you look at it, it's just servers, they're just servers that are everywhere" and actually, how do we actually start to attach all this stuff. It's all multicloud, you know what is the cloud but a bunch of different servers that somebody else owns? You may own them, you may not. The challenge is going to be how do we tie all that together? >> Computer history has proven, if anything, heterogeneous environments, multi-vendor. You can go back and talk about, the comment about the client server, I mean, that was a real threat to the mainframe. Internetworking completely changed the game. At that time PCs were exploding in growth, and multi-vendor was a big buzzword. And that was the reality, you had to compete and service multiple vendors in an environment. >> Yeah, and-- >> Multiple cloud is just multiple vendors. >> John, it's called the multicloud conference, and you know my friend Joseph Jacks, I mean Joseph and I have a lot of conversations about things, you know, and he's brilliant in terms of how he thinks about commercial open source and how these things are, and you know I really played around with changing the name of this to the open and independent cloud conference, because that's really what this is about, it's about how do we have a conversation, in the open, about how we open up the cloud? I just thought, I was a little frustrated with some of the conferences I went to because, I think people are talking about this, but it's not lip service, it's just difficult to talk about it in a broader sense. >> Well, I'm really glad you did this because I've been calling multicloud bullshit on theCube for over a year, Stu and I have debates about this, and you know, putting-- >> I watched. >> Okay, of course, but people who know what I mean know that I believe that multicloud reality of "I have Amazon, I got Azure, I mean, hell, if you upgrade Office 365, you have Azure, so that's another cloud. So yes, people have multiple clouds in their environment, but the foundational work is being done now, you guys are doing it, and that's what I was getting at. There's no multiclouding going on, meaning sense of the seamless workload, what HashiCorp is doing, so this is the foundational, what you guys are getting at, in my mind, at least from my perspective, is a foundational conversation around what is the foundation of multicloud look like. >> And John, there is a technical equation here. I think a lot of people will argue the technical merits of what is multicloud, is it even possible to combine networking and security and all, those are really difficult problems to solve. At Cockroach Labs, to solve the database problem, to solve the data problem, to actually have, you know I could spin up a node at Cockroach on this laptop that's sitting next to you and have that participate in a database that spans multiple clouds, that's awesome. But there's a whole other side of this conversation, John, around what does it mean for my skills in my organization, what does it mean for the financial side of things, the legal, and so I think we're all dealing with a lot of these multicloud concepts, we're just not addressing them yet, and so, it's complex. >> Well, first of all, it's fun too, I mean it's complex, but innovation is complex. But here's the thing, Dave and I were joking around Cloud 2.0 and we picked that term, talking about Cloud 2.0, mainly because I remember during Web 2.0, it was just, everyone was just, "What is Web"..., and to create such a debate, so to goof on Web 2.0 we said Cloud 2.0, but what we mean is that it's changing, right? I'll give you an example, I mean to me Cloud 2.0 or multicloud is having a fully horizontal scalable infrastructure, that on-demand, elastic resource with domain specialty application development that takes advantage of data and machine learning for domain-specific context. And then having an addressable data layer on top of that. That to me is multicloud. >> And being able to service your customers no matter where they are. And unfortunately the public copywriters don't have full coverage across the whole planet so we inherently live in this multicloud world. If you wanted to pull an application today, I'm sorry but the world is your audience, there's no segmenting your app to just New York, right? And so how you actually service customers when they're coming at you from all over the planet. It's another challenge that we have. Fortunately I want to add to your Cloud Two conversation, I'm sorry the Cloud 2.0 conversation, that it is a world of hybrid and multi and multi region and single region and it's the evolution between these different kind of flavors of this situation, I feel is the emerging trend that's happening and we're-- >> Well categories are changing, network management becomes observability, configuration management becomes automation, the old database becomes a different kind of database for you, data protection is cyber protection. There's redefining moments here where white spaces are becoming larger categories. I mean, look at observability, probably going public, getting bought. >> John, look at what Google did over the past, like, 10, 12 years and look at the startups that are now out there that are kind of doing this really innovative stuff. We have LightStep here, you know Cockroach is another great example, what the Upbound team is doing, so people have been through this. From a data point of view we couldn't agree more. I can spin up an instance of RDS, Postgres and it's going to be a single instance, it's going to live in one region and that's going to service one bit of a cloud in one corner of the world. The cloud, and this massive distribution of stuff, it changed, you have to inherently start over when you're building these technologies, and that's why the CNCF has come about, right, is there's a fundamentally different approach-- >> CNCF, I love those guys and we're going to go to do CubeCon, but one of the things that I was talking with hashCode co-founder earlier today, he was talking about workflows. I was talking about workloads, and so I think the conversation is still technical and geeky but if you just abstract out all of the nerd talk and geek talk and say, "What's the workflow and what's the workload?", you go, okay, no other buzzwords should be talked. You've got to go onstage, so you've got to go. Jim Walker, Vice President of Product Marketing, Cockroach Labs, good friend of theCube, and our producer of this show, Mike Harold and the team, Escape/19, first inaugural multicloud conference. Be back with more after this short break. (techno music)

>>from New York. It's the Q covering Escape. 19. >>Welcome back to the Cube coverage here in New York City for the first inaugural multi cloud conference called Escape, where in New York City was staying in New York, were not escaping from New York were in New York. It's all about multi Cloud, and we're here. Lisa Marie Nancy, developer advocate for Port Works, and Eric Conn, vice president of Products Works. Welcome back. Q. >>Thank you, John. Good to see >>you guys. So, um, whenever the first inaugural of anything, we want to get into it and find out why. Multi clouds certainly been kicked around. People have multiple clouds, but is there really multi clouding going on? So this seems to be the theme here about setting the foundation, architecture and data of the two kind of consistent themes. What shared guys take Eric, What's your take on this multi cloud trend? Yeah, >>I think it's something we've all been actively watching for a couple years, and suddenly it is becoming the thing right? So every we just had ah, customer event back in Europe last week, and every customer there is already running multi cloud. It's always something on their consideration. So there's definitely it's not just a discussion topic. It's now becoming a practical reality. So this event's been perfect because it's both the sense of what are people doing, What are they trying to achieve and also the business sense. So it's definitely something that is not necessarily mainstream, but it's becoming much more how they're thinking about building all their applications. Going forward, >>you know, you have almost two camps in the world. Want to get your thoughts on this guy's Because, like you have cloud native and people that are cloud native, they love it. They born the cloud that get it. Everything's cracking along. The developers air on Micro Service's They're agile train with their own micro service's. Then you got the hybrid I t. Trying to be hybrid developer, right? So you kind of have to markets coming together. So to me, I see multi cloud as kind of a combination of old legacy Data center types of I t with cloud native, not just ops and dead. But how about like trying to build developer teams inside enterprises? This seems to be a big trend, and multi club fits into that because now the reality is that I got azure. I got Amazon. Well, let's take a step back and think about the architecture. What's the foundation? So that to me, is more my opinion. But I want to get your thoughts and reactions that because if it's true, that means some new thinking has to come around around. What's the architecture? What are you trying to do? What's the workloads behavior outcome look like? What's the work flows? So there's a whole nother set of conversations that happened. >>I agree. I think the thing that the fight out there right now that we want to make mainstream is that it's a platform choice, and that's the best way to go forward. So it's still an active debate. But the idea could be I want to do multi club, but I'm gonna lock myself into the Cloud Service is if that's the intent or that's the design architecture pattern. You're really not gonna achieve the goals we all set out to do right, So in some ways we have to design ourselves or have the architecture that will let us achieve the business schools that were really going for and that really means from our perspective or from a port works perspective. There's a platform team. That platform team should run all the applications and do so in a multi cloud first design pattern. And so from that perspective, that's what we're doing from a data plan perspective. And that's what we do with Kubernetes etcetera. So from that idea going forward, what we're seeing is that customers do want to build a platform team, have that as the architecture pattern, and that's what we think is going to be the winning strategy. >>Thank you. Also, when you have the definition of cod you have to incorporate, just like with hybrid I t the legacy applications. And we saw that you throughout the years those crucial applications, as we call them People don't always want them to refer to his legacy. But those are crucial applications, and our customers were definitely thinking about how we're gonna run those and where is the right places it on Prem. We're seeing that a lot too. So I think when we talk about multi cloud, we also talk about what What is in your legacy? What is it? Yeah, I >>like I mean I use legacy. I think it's a great word because I think it really puts nail in the coffin of that old way because remember, if you think about some of the large enterprises, these legacy applications, they've been optimized for hardware and optimize their full stack. They've been build up from the ground up, so they're cool. They're running stuff, but it doesn't always translate to see a new platform designed point. So how do you mean Containers is great fit for their Cooper names. Obviously, you know is the answer. We you guys see that as well, but okay, I can keep that and still get this design point. So I guess what I want to ask you guys, as you guys are digging into some of the customer facing conversations, what are they talking about? The day talking about? The platform? Specifically? Certainly, on the security side, we're seeing everyone running away from buying tools to thinking about platforms. What's the conversation like on the cloud side >>way? Did a talk are multiplied for real talk at Barcelona? Q. Khan put your X three on Sudden. Andrew named it for reals of Izzy, but we really wanted to talk about multiplied in the real world. And when we said show of hands in Barcelona, who's running multi cloud? It was very, very few. And this was in, what, five months? Four months ago? Whereas maybe our customers are just really super advanced because of our 100 plus customers. At four words, we Eric is right. A lot of them are already running multi cloud or if not their plan, in the planning stage right now. So even in the last +56 months, this has become a reality. And we're big fans of communities. I don't know if you know Eric was the first product manager for Pernetti. Hey, he's too shy to say it on Dhe. So yeah, and we think, you know, and criminal justice to be the answer to making all They caught a reality right now. >>Well, I want to get back into G, K, E and Cooper. Very notable historic moment. So congratulations, But to your point about multi cloud, it's interesting because, you know, having multiple clouds means things, right? So, for instance, if I upgrade to office 3 65 and I kill my exchange server, I'm essentially running azure by their definition. If I'm building it, stack on AWS. I'm a native, this customer. Let's just say I want to do some tensorflow or play with big table or spanner on Google. Now >>we have three >>clouds now they're not. So they have work clothes, specific objectives. I am totally no problem. I see that like for the progressive customers, some legacy be to be people who like maybe they put their toe in the cloud. But anyone doing meaningful cloud probably has multiple clouds. But that's workload driven when you get into tying them together and is interesting. And I think that's where I think you guys have a great opportunity in this community because if open source convene the gateway to minimize the lock in and when I say lock and I mean like locking them propriety respect if his value their great use it. But if I want to move my data out of the Amazon, >>you brought up so many good points. So let me go through a few and Lisa jumping. I feel like locking. People don't wanna be locked >>in at the infrastructure level. So, like you said, if >>there's value at the higher levels of Stack, and it helps me do my business faster. That's an okay thing to exchange, but it is just locked in and it's not doing anything. They're that's not equal exchange, right, So there's definitely a move from infrastructure up the platform. So locking in >>infrastructure is what people are trying to move away from. >>From what we see from the perspective of legacy, there is a lot of things happening in industry that's pretty exciting of how legacy will also start to running containers. And I'm sure you've seen that. But containers being the basis you could run a BM as well. And so that will mean a lot for in terms of how V EMS can start >>to be matched by orchestrators like kubernetes. So that is another movement for legacy, and I wanted to acknowledge that point >>now, in terms of the patterns, there are definitely applications, like a hybrid pattern where connect the car has to upload all its data once it docks into its location and move it to the data center. So there are patterns where the workflow does move the ups are the application data between on Prem into a public cloud, for instance, and then coming back from that your trip with Lisa. There is also examples where regulations require companies to enterprise is to be able to move to another cloud in a reasonable time frame. So there's definitely a notion of Multi Cloud is both an architectural design pattern. But it's also a sourcing strategy, and that sourcing strategy is more regulation type o. R. In terms of not being locked in. And that's where I'm saying it's all those things. I'd >>love to get your thoughts on this because I like where you're going with this because it kind of takes it to a level of okay, standardization, kubernetes nights, containers, everyone knows what that is. But then you start talking about a P I gateways, for instance, right? So if I'm a car and I have five different gateways on my device, I ot devices or I have multiple vendors dealing with control playing data that could be problematic. I gotta do something like that. So I'm starting. Envision them? I just made that news case up, but my point is is that you need some standards. So on the a p I side was seeing some trends there. One saying, Okay, here's my stuff. I'll just pass parameters with FBI State and stateless are two dynamics. What do you make of that? What, What? What has to happen next to get to that next level of happiness and goodness? Because Bernays, who's got it, got it there, >>right? I feel that next level. I feel like in Lisa, Please jump. And I feel like from automation perspective, Kubernetes has done that from a P I gateway. And what has to happen next. There's still a lot of easy use that isn't solved right. There's probably tons of opportunities out there to build a much better user experience, both from the operations point of view and from what I'm trying to do is an intense because what people aren't gonna automate right now is the intent. They automate a lot of the infrastructure manual tasks, and that's goodness. But from how I docked my application, how the application did it gets moved. We're still at the point of making policy driven, easy to use, and I think there's a lot of opportunities for everyone to get better there. That's like low priority loving fruitcake manual stuff >>and communities was really good at the local food. That's a really use case that you brought up. Really. People were looking at the data now and when you're talking about persistent mean kun is his great for stateless, but for state full really crucial data. So that's where we really come in. And a number of other companies in the cloud native storage ecosystem come in and have really fought through this problem and that data management problem. That's where this platform that Aaron was talking to that >>state problem. Talk about your company. I want to go back to to, um, Google Days. Um, many war stories around kubernetes will have the same fate as map reduce. Yeah, the debates internally at Google. What do we do with it? You guys made the good call. Congratulations on doing that. What was it like to be early on? Because you already had large scale. You were already had. Borg already had all these things in place. Um, it wasn't like there was what was, >>Well, a few things l say one is It was intense, right? It was intense in the sense that amazing amount of intelligence amazing amount of intent, and right back then a lot of things were still undecided, right? We're still looking at how containers or package we're still looking at how infrastructure kit run and a lot of service is were still being rolled out. So what it really meant is howto build something that people want to build, something that people want to run with you and how to build an ecosystem community. A lot of that the community got was done very well, right? You have to give credit to things like the Sig. A lot of things like how people like advocates like Lisa had gone out and made it part of what they're doing. And that's important, right? Every ecosystem needs to have those advocates, and that's what's going well, a cz ah flip side. I think there's a lot of things where way always look back, in which we could have done a few things differently. But that's a different story for different. Today >>I will come back in the studio Palop of that. I gotta ask you now that you're outside. Google was a culture shock. Oh my God! People actually provisioning software provisioning data center culture shock when there's a little >>bit of culture shock. One thing is, and the funny thing is coming full circle in communities now, is that the idea of an application? Right? The idea of what is an application eyes, something that feels very comfortable to a lot of legacy traditional. I wanna use traditional applications, but the moment you're you've spent so much time incriminates and you say, What's the application? It became a very hard thing, and I used to have a lot of academic debates. Where is saying there is no application? It's It's a soup of resources and such. So that was a hard thing. But funny thing is covered, as is now coming out with definitions around application, and Microsoft announced a few things in that area to so there are things that are coming full circle, but that just shows how the movement has changed and how things are becoming in some ways meeting each other halfway. >>Talk about the company, what you guys are doing. Take a moment. Explain in context to multi cloud. We're here. Port works. What's the platform? It's a product. What's the value proposition? What's the state of the company. >>So the companies? Uh well, well, it's grown from early days when Lisa and I joined where we're probably a handful now. We're in four or five cities. Geography ease over 100 people over 150 customers and there. It's been a lot of enterprises that are saying, like, How do I take this pattern of doing containers and micro service is And how do I run it with my mission? Critical business crinkle workloads. And at that point, there is no mission critical business critical workload that isn't stable so suddenly they're trying to say, How do I run These applications and containers and data have different life cycles. So what they're really looking for is a data plane that works with the control planes and how controlled planes are changing the behavior. So a lot of our technology and a lot of our product innovation has been around both the data plane but a storage control plane that integrates with a computer controlled plane. So I know we like to talk about one control plane. There's actually multiple control planes, and you mentioned security, right? If I look at how applications are running way after now securely access for applications, and it's no longer have access to the data. Before I get to use it, you have to now start to do things like J W. T. Or much higher level bearer tokens to say, I know how to access this application for this life cycle for this use case and get that kind of resiliency. So it's really around having that storage. More complexity absolutely need abstraction >>layers, and you got compute. Look, leading work there. But you gotta have >>software to do it from a poor works perspective. Our products entirely software right down loans and runs using kubernetes. And so the point here is we make remarries able to run all the staple workloads out of the box using the same comment control plane, which is communities. So that's the experiences that we really want to make it so that Dev Ops teams can run anywhere close. And that's that's in some ways been part of the mix. Lisa, >>we've been covering Dev up, going back to 2010. Remember when I first was hanging around San Francisco 2008 joint was coming out the woodwork and all that early days and you look at the journey of how infrastructures code We talked about that in 2008 and now we'll get 11 years later. Look at the advancements you've been through this now The tipping point. It's just seems like this wave is big and people are on it. The developers air getting it. It's a modern renaissance of application developers, and the enterprises it's happening in the enterprise is not just like the nerds Tier one, the Alfa Geeks or >>the Cloud native. It's happening in the >>everyone's on board this time, and you and I have been in the trenches in the early stages of many open source projects. And I think with with kubernetes Arab reference of community earlier, I'm super proud to be running the world's largest CNC F for user group. And it's a great community, a diverse community, super smart people. One of my favorite things about working for works is we have some really smart engineers that have figured out what companies want, how to solve problems, and then we'll go creative. It'll open source projects. We created a project called autopilot, really largely because one of our customers, every who's in the G s space and who's running just incredible application. You can google it and see what the work they're doing. It's all there publicly, Onda We built, you know, we built an open source project for them to help them get the most out of kubernetes. We can say so. There's a lot of people in the community system doing that. How can we make communities better halfway make commitments, enterprise grade and not take years to do that? Like some of the other open source projects that we worked on, it took. So it's a super exciting time to be here, >>and open source is growing so fast now. I mean, just think about how these projects being structured. Maur and Maur projects are coming online and user price, but a lot more vendor driven projects to use be mostly and used, but now you have a lot of vendors who are users. So the line is blurring between Bender User in Open source is really fascinating. >>Well, you look at the look of the landscape on the C N. C f. You know the website. I mean, it's what 400 that are already on board. It's really important. >>They don't have enough speaking slasher with >>right. I know, and it's just it. It is users and vendors. Everybody's in this community together. It's one of things that makes it super exciting. And it it's how we know this is This was the right choice for us to base this on communities because that's what everybody, you guys >>are practically neighbors. So we're looking for seeing the studio. Palo Alto Eric, I want to ask you one final question on the product side. Road map. What you guys thinking As Kubernetes goes, the next level state, a lot of micro service is observe abilities becoming a key part of it, Obviously, automation, configuration management things are developing fast. State. What's the What's the road map for you guys? >>For us, it's been always about howto handle the mission critical and make that application run seamlessly. And then now we've done a lot of portability. So disaster recovery has been one of the biggest things for us is that customers are saying, How do I do a hybrid pattern back to your earlier question of running on Prem and in Public Cloud and do a d. R. Pale over into some of the things at least, is pointing out that we're announcing soon is non series autopilot in the idea, automatically managing applications scale from a volume capacity. And then we're actually going to start moving a lot more into some of the what you do with data after the life cycle in terms of backup and retention. So those are the things that everyone's been pushing us and the customers are all asking for. You >>know, I think data they were back in recovery is interesting. I think that's going to change radically. And I think we look at the trend of how yeah, data backup and recovery was built. It was built because of disruption of business, floods, our gains, data center failure. But I think the biggest disruptions ransomware that malware. So security is now a active disruptor. So it's not like it after the hey, if we ever have, ah, fire, we can always roll back. So you're infected and you're just rolling back infected code. That's a ransomware dream. That's what's going on. So I think data protection it needs to be >>redefined. What do you think? Absolutely. I think there's a notion of How do I get last week's data last month? And then oftentimes customers will say, If I have a piece of data volume and I suddenly have to delete it, I still need to have some record of that action for a long time, right? So those are the kinds of things that are happening and his crew bearnaise and everything. It gets changed. Suddenly. The important part is not what was just that one pot it becomes. How do I reconstruct everything? What action is not one thing. It's everywhere. That's right and protected all through the platform. If it was a platform decision, it's not some the cattlemen on the side. You can't be a single lap. It has to be entire solution. And it has to handle things like, Where do you come from? Where is it allowed to go? And you guys have that philosophy. We absolutely, and it's based on the enterprises that are adopting port works and saying, Hey, this is my romance. I'm basing it on Kubernetes. You're my date a partner. We make it happen. >>This speaks to your point of why the enterprise is in. The vendors jumped in this is what people care about Security. How do you solve this last mile problem? Storage. Networking. How do you plug those holes in Kubernetes? Because that is crucial to our >>personal private moment. Victory moment for me personally, was been a big fan of Cuban is absolutely, you know, for years. Then there were created, talked about one. The moments that got me that was really kind of a personal, heartfelt moment was enterprise buyer. And, you know, the whole mindset in the Enterprise has always been You gotta kill the old to bring in the new. And so there's always been that tension of a you know, the shiny new toy from Silicon Valley or whatever. You know, I'm not gonna just trash this and have a migration za paying that. But for I t, they don't want that to do that. They hate doing migrations, but with containers and kubernetes that could actually they don't to end of life to bring in the new project. They can do it on their own timetable or keep it around. So that took a lot of air out of the tension in on the I t. Side because they say great I can deal with the lifecycle management, my app on my own terms and go play with Cloud native and said to me, that's like that was to be like, Okay, there it is. That was validation. That means this Israel because now they can innovate without compromising. >>I think so. And I think some of that has been how the ecosystems embrace it, right. So now it's becoming all the vendors are saying my internal stack is also based on community. So even if you as an application owner or not realizing it, you're gonna take a B M next year and you're gonna run it and it's gonna be back by something like awesome. Lisa >>Marie Nappy Eric on Thank you for coming on Port Works Hot start of multiple cities Kubernetes big developer Project Open Source. Talking about multi cloud here at the inaugural Multi cloud conference in New York City. It's the Cube Courage of escape. 2019. I'm John Period. Thanks for watching

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE covering Escape/19. (techno music) >> Hey welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of the first inaugural, Multi-Cloud Conference in New York City. It's called Escape/2019. I'm here with Brendan O'Leary, Senior Solutions Architect with GitLab. Is that right, Senior Solutions Architect? >> Brendan: Close enough, Manager, you know. >> Manager, architect, you work at GitLab, you're technical, so we'll have a good chat here. Welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> First Multi-Cloud Conference, really we love to go to the inaugural anything. >> Sure. >> Just in case it's not around next year, we can say we were here. It looks like it's got some legs, some interesting conversations I see in the hallways. You know, you guys are a big part of this revolution. GitLab, your company, you're providing opensource repositories, free, to get people to get started, as well you got paid stuff, as well. Hot area. GitHub was acquired by Microsoft. Some say Microsoft's not going to meddle with that. We'll see, but still, a super-important part of the community that you guys are involved in. >> It's true. We're seeing this multi-cloud revolution, if you want to call it that, with a lot of our customers, right? It's no longer that you pick one cloud, and that's where everything's going to run. You're going to have acquisitions. You're going to have the desire to negotiate and have a negotiating position with your vendors. You're going to want to use functionality that's maybe only in one of the clouds. And so we're really seeing this multi-cloud become more of a norm. And that's why we think it's critical to have a DevOps platform that's independent from that, so that you can deploy everywhere. >> So what's the lock-in spec? I mean, basically the thesis is that if you want to negotiating leverage, you want to have multi-cloud. I get the whole, "there's multiple clouds," because, upgrade to Office 365, you got Azure, basically. So, multi-vendor, multi-cloud, totally buy it. But what's the lock-in spec that's getting people agitated, or thinking about multi-cloud? >> Yeah, I think it's interesting, because there's both, of course, the technical side. Like I said, you might have functionality that you want to run that's only available on one cloud. But, the finance folks, and everyone else gets concerned about, "Hey, are we going to get locked into some vendor, "where we don't have any ability to negotiate?" And so I think that is part of it, and I read, as part of prepping for my talk here, a 2019 state-of-cloud report that said 84% of enterprises, today, are using more than one cloud. So I think that's indicative of that desire to not-- You may have a primary cloud where you deploy things, but you're going to use more than one. >> I think that's a fair reality. I mean, probably more, I mean, if you count all these, how they're bundling apps in there. What's your talk going to be about? Is it today or tomorrow? >> So, I'm talking tomorrow, and I'm talking about a framework for making decisions about multi-cloud. 'Cause again, I think that a lot of the times we get bogged down in the technology, and picking features over what we're really looking for, which is the business value of being able to have a single view, a single application, a single platform for your developers to be able to deploy, kind of no matter where it's going to end up, in the end, right? We don't want the developer having to think about that, necessarily, when they're building the application. We want to deliver value to our customers, right? And so we want them to be doing that differentiated work. >> Me and Armon were talking earlier, HashiCorp, CTO of HashiCorp, and he was talking about workflows, and I was talking about, okay, workloads. So, if you just take those two concepts, workflows and workloads, and just strip out any other technical conversation, what's the framework? Because, these are real issues. Those are the--that's the continuity issue for the business, not the tech. So, fill in the blanks around that. How does that--how do I get multi-cloud out of making sure my workflows aren't disrupted, and my workloads are kicking ass and doing their job? >> Yeah, I would say that that's a great question, and we love HashiCorp and what they've done for our space, and for multi-cloud, in general. They're a great partner for us. But I think the key is, the workflow you generally want to be the same, no matter where you're deploying, right? You want to have confidence that the code your building is secure, it's going to work, it's been tested, and, no matter where it deploys in the end, you want to have that same kind of workflow for your developers. But you also want to have workload portability, right? So, when you're talking about the ability to have a negotiating position, or the ability to run in multiple clouds, the same application, you know, have disaster recovery, have not just this monolith--mono-cloud environment, you have to have workload portability, as well. >> Well, Brendan, I'm not sure if they're taping your interview. Hope they are. If they are, then we'll get those copies in our video on cloud. But, you've got a framework for multi-cloud, and with the reality that everyone wants, or has either inherited, or has, or will want a multi-vendor environment, what is that framework for negotiating, or setting up the foundation? Because the theme here, my interviews here, and the hallway conversations, two things: One is foundational discussions around multi-cloud, I mean, early, thought leaders laying out, here's some lines to think about. And then, two, data. So, two, interesting, common threads, here: foundational thinking and data. >> I think that foundational thinking's important, because I think that's really what my framework gets to is, hey, we want to look at not just the technology, and not those answers. We want to look at, what are the business metrics that we're driving towards, right? 'Cause, in the end, again, that's what we want to be driving in software is our businesses. And, so, what are the business metrics that we're going to use, and how can we make it efficient? How can we make it governed? And how can we make it visible across those clouds? I think those are the three things to be focused on. >> And is there a certain way? So is it more, situational, based upon the environment, because maybe there's weights of certain variables over others? >> I think so. I think, depending on your environment, right? You maybe in a more highly regulated environment where governance is the number one, it's the king. But I think everyone has those governance concerns, right? None of us want to wake up to a security call that we should have known about, right? >> How's things going on in your world? GitLab, you guys are doing great. Good to see you guys got a big round of funding, recently. >> Going great. >> GitHub just sold for billions of dollars. That's a nice comp. >> Yeah, no, I say it's nice when someone sells a house in your neighborhood for a lot of money, right? But, yeah, no, what we see from that is the industry moving toward this single tool for your DevOps lifecycle, for your DevOps tool chain, and your DevOps lifecycle. We want to be able to have one way that developers deploy code, and we're seeing that kind of consolidation in the market. And we've had great success with that, so far. Our stated pubic desire is to go public next year. And we're on track for that, right now. So, we're looking forward to it. >> You know what's interesting and I love is the subtext to all this plot, which is, there's a human equation in all this, right? The human capital, human resource, the people-side of the equation, the cultural shifts in these companies, your customers, now. Any observational commentary that you can share around how DevOps has kind of gone mainstream? Any cultural shifts around people and their behaviors and their affinity towards certain things? >> Yeah, it's an interesting question. I saw an article yesterday about a CIO who was being promoted to CEO, as the current CEO stepped down, and how that was kind of a novel thing. But the article was actually talking about how we're going to see more of that, right? Businesses, eight years ago, Marc Andreesen said that software is eating the world. Well, I think software has eaten the world, and we're seeing that in our businesses, as every company becomes a software company. >> And open source, JJ would argue at OSS Capital, that there's new business models emerging, as well. And new opportunities, as well, for everyone involved. Open source software, cloud computing, multi-cloud, it's a great wave. >> It is a big wave, and, you know, GitLab's based on an open-source project, right? And so, just, we were founded only back in 2014, as a company, but we've come to find a business model that works, open-core, and we think there's a lot of opportunity in the market for folks to follow, and open source to have an even bigger impact than it's already had on the market. >> Final question for you, Brendan. What do you think about this conference, some of the hallway conversations, what's the vibe? For the folks that aren't here, what's it like? >> Oh, I mean, I think it's great. I think there's been a lot of great discussions, again, about very foundational things, about, hey, how do we look at this as a business leaders? But, then, I've also had great discussions about the technology and about Kubernetes, about those kinds of things that really enable us to have those kinds of conversations. >> Some good relationships being developed here. People know each other, too. >> Exactly, yeah, people I haven't seen in a long time, or people that I work with that I haven't seen 'cause we're all remote. >> It's great to see it in New York, too. >> Yeah, I love it in New York. So, I'm from DC, so it's a quick train ride up, but I love coming up, though. >> Not like us in California, big plane ride. Brendan, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, great, thank you very much for having me. >> I'm John Furrier, here at the first, inaugural conference, Escape/19, back with more of that after this short break. (techno music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From New York, it's theCUBE. Covering Escape/19. (upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back to theCUBE coverage in New York City for the inaugural multicloud conference called Escape/19. We're in New York City. Escape from New York City, escape from your cloud, multicloud is the reality. Armad Dadgar, he's here, the CTO Co-founder of HashiCorp, Cube Alumni, great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, great to see you. Thanks for having me back. >> So first of all, I just got to say congratulations on all your success, you guys have been doing extremely well as a business and you guys started out with a very pure mission, continues to be. You're getting some validation, market-place is spinning in your direction. You couldn't ask for kind of a better scenario. Kept doing it so congratulations. >> Thank you so much, it's been fun. >> So you guys are at the pinnacle of the confluence of automation meets you know, what developers care about. Just standing stuff up and getting stuff done. Infrastructure as code has been the ethos of cloud, dev-ops. Now we're on the horizon here at a cloud that's billing itself as the inaugural multicloud show. People have multiple clouds but they're not multiclouding so there's still a lot more work. But the best minds are here having conversations around, "What does that picture looks like? "What can we do foundationally? "What best practices and things you double-down on?" What's your take on all this? >> You know I think it's funny 'cause I think if you had this exact same conference three or four years ago everyone's take would have been like, "What multicloud?" Right? Like everyone's like, "Multicloud's not real, "it's only Amazon et cetera." And so it's funny now to actually be at a multicloud conference where's it's like nobody even questions the premise. Everyone's like, "Yeah, obviously we're going to be multicloud". Right? And I think what's happened is that you've seen maturity of the public clouds. So it's no longer just Amazon, there's multiple credible clouds. And I think the other piece of it is larger organizations are realizing multicloud's inevitable. You might say, "I'm going to go all-in on, "you know, cloud A, and then I buy a company that's cloud B, now I'm multicloud." And so I think the pragmatic reality for the kind of global 10,000 is you're going to be a mutlicloud company whether you want to or whether you don't. >> It's like multi-vendor in the old days. When I was growing up in the mini-computer networking days, you had multiple vendors. That's not a bad thing. >> Yeah. >> Just got to create some abstractions. I want to get your take on the work environment that's out there. You guys have been very successful, providing great tools, open-source and commercial for developers to stand stuff up and do their work. To operationalize multicloud, which is inevitable. >> Yep. >> How do you see that vision? I mean obviously, common workflows and workstreams but if I'm an IT guy or I'm a VP of IT or CSO or whatever, I got money. I don't want to fork my developer teams. I want my guys being productive, I'd love to have my own stacks on premises. I'd love to push APIs out to my vendors and say, "That's how we work together." So a modern thinking is going on. >> Right. >> How do you look at the operationalizing that next level? >> So, you know, what I just spoke about is sort of like when we talk about multicloud I think there's kind of four definitions of it. One is the notion of data portability. Which is, you know, perfect fit for database technology like Cockroach, right? The notion of I'm going to have data that exists in multiple clouds at the same time. Then you have the notion of workflow portability, right? Which is exactly I think what you're talking about. Which is, "Hey, if I'm a developer "building an app I don't care, "is it going to land on Amazon, "is it going to land on-premise, "is it going to go to Google? "I want one workflow. "For how do I do my, you know CICD? "How do I do my testing? "How do I do the deployment? "How do I monitor it, right? "what are the workflows in terms of delivery?" Because to your point if I'm the CIO, I don't want to invest in four different workflows, right? I want to train my team on one. I want to have a common way of delivering it. And that's a developer efficiency. I think there's the sort of Shangri-la of multicloud which is this idea of like workload migration. I'm going to push a button and move it from cloud-A to cloud-B. And I think for most organizations that's, you know very hard to architect for. It requires so much discipline. And I'm not sure it's actually practical for most organizations. 'Cause it means that's you can't really use any of the cloud's high value services. It means that you have to really architect everything for data portability, everything for workflow portability. And so I think what's reasonable is kind of exactly what you said, which is like-- >> Well the Shangri-La example is a good one. I mean, throw in SLAs on latency. I mean, you can't even get network latency is just so all over the map. So SLAs are, just, that's almost impossible. >> Yeah. It's-- >> At this point. So the low-hanging fruit is ultimately is data portability and workflows. >> Yeah. >> And preserving the developer focus. So what is your take on, I'd love to get your expert opinion on this, because people are investing in developers. And it's that there are people who are doing it well and some are not doing it very well. Meaning they've been relying on outsourced vendors. You know, this company's been providing all my dev. And we've been lean and mean. We got dashboard, we're pushing, provisioning servers. And I got the cloud, I got Amazon dashboard. But now, I can't really, crank anything craft out there. I need real developers. So you got great and poor. >> Right. >> What's the success point for having a good strong, enterprise developers? >> So you know I think what's interesting is those companies you're talking about that you're sort of used to outsourcing everything. For them, they never thought about software dev as a core competency, right? It's like "Oh I'm, you know, I'm a media company," Or, "I'm a retailer." It's not like competency. I'm just going to outsource to HP, IBM, whoever to do my dev work. And I think what's changing is as you think about dev ops as sort of this new digital economy it's that, no, the application is my value, right? Like, yes, maybe the product I end up delivering to you is a razor blade but my value is in the digital experience, the engagement. So I think your core competency has to become software development. And I think that that's that big shift, right? It's a bit of a top-down shift in terms of how do you think about the development group? And then I think from there it's bootstrapping a culture. It's bootstrapping sort of those core engineering teams. Like, to your point the kind of cloud-native practitioners. I think you have to foster that, sort of internal culture and community. But it's also a top-down investment. That's never going to work in a bottoms-up way if you don't foster the top-down investment and say, Actually, I'm going to think about this team as a revenue driver and not a cost center. >> It's interesting, I was just doing an exercise on the flight out from California here to the east coast. And I was look at all the different players that we cover. We cover, you know hundreds and hundreds of companies. And I was trying to put them in buckets. And then I was like,cloud-native, this is clearly the cloud-native bucket. People in the cloud-native, it's like we know who they are. Then I'm like, okay, enterprise, data center, no, hybrid, oh yeah, hybrid. Well are they hybrid? Hybrid IT? No, no, hybrid developer? So, I was just like trying to shoehorn in, like. So hybrid certainly is there. But hybrid IT is kind of losing favor on my list. It became hybrid developers. Meaning that IT wasn't like, categorically relevant in just how they were organizing. >> Right. >> They were either doing hybrid with developers, and then you had pure cloud-native which is just scale. >> Right. >> So those two worlds are coming together on the data. >> Right. >> Your reaction to that. >> Yeah, I mean that, to your point, that you can think about the sort of, the architecture, the application architecture I think as being distinct from the IT practices. Right, and think to your point you can live in this sort of weird world where you might have a cloud-native architecture but sort of a traditional IT practice. and I think maybe that that's what sort of a hybrid IT might look like. So I think that ultimately people want to migrate away from that into more of sort of a truly cloud-native dev ops sort of mentality. >> Well I think that one of the insights that's happening real-time with this conversation is that, if software is your core competency, then inherently IT is subsumed into it. Because in dev ops they are the IT. >> Right. >> Right, so. >> Right. You better be really good at it. Yeah, exactly, yeah. >> Yeah, so every company I mean I think ultimately that's the pivot in my mind is that if you're not going software digital then you might not make it. >> Yeah. >> Ultimately, because someone else will. >> Right, exactly. >> All right, talk about your success in HachiCorp. What's been the magic formula for you guys? If you had to look at. I know it's hard, and sometimes you get lucky. You guys have made your own breaks. You have a good philosophy, a good culture. But you had some tailwinds, you had some good, good trends at your back helping you. What's the big success formula for you guys? >> You know I think there's two big ones, right? I think that two is sort of bigger trends that we're sort of riding is that one is this notion of cloud-adoption. Right, like, you know, that's huge. The other one is this sort of app modernization of how do I go from traditional, ticket-driven process of delivering an app into dev ops, self-service agile delivery? And so I think that sort of modernization of the process is just as important as the modernization of the architecture from on-premise to cloud. Right, so I think that we're kind of riding both of those. And I think what's been really important for HashiCorp is sort of an ethos that I think has helped us, is this notion that we care a lot more about workflow than we care about the technology, right? 'Cause what's crazy to me is we're a small, you know, we're still a start-up, right? And so in the last six, seven years of our life if you look at 2012 and say, hey, what's changed from a technology standpoint since then? I'd say everything. 2012, you had one cloud, you didn't have Docker, you didn't have Containers, you didn't have Kubernetes, you didn't have serverless, you didn't have infrastructure as code, right? So, there's just sea-change after sea-change in terms of technology. But what hasn't changed is core workflow. And I think for us that investing was, hey, we're going to be a workflow-oriented company and those things don't change. Where if we say, "I'm going to be the best shop at delivering Java." And then Docker shows up. You know that's an existential threat to your business. >> Exactly. And I think that one of the things that we as a tech industry get into is speeds and feeds, the shiny new toy. And I think that's a great success formula. In fact I was just having a conversation with another technologist this past week. And we were talking about all the cool stuff's going on. He goes, John, John, forget about the workflow as one thing, as underpinning. There's things going on. That's automation there's some goodness there. He goes "But up the stack, machine learning, AI," "Forget all that, it's just the work load." So if you think about just work load and workflow. >> Right. >> Everything else should just fall into place. >> Exactly. >> And that's where the cloud, 2.0 is modernization is going. >> Right, so I think that the companies you've seen succeed are either, to your point, they're a new type of work load that exists in the cloud as a manage service. It's Confluent, it's Spark, right? It Cockroach that I can go consume as a service. Or you have the workflow vendors who have said, great, I'm going to give you a common, multi-cloud dev ops way of consuming that and deploying that workload out there. And I think those are sort of the two patterns that work. >> It's so exciting, this new wave, it's great. And it's just the beginning, ehrtr multi-cloud here. I got to get your take while you're here on cloud 2.0. It's something that I've been kicking around inside theCUBE team as a goof on Web 2.0. 'Cause Web 2.0 was a big goof, "Oh it's Web 2.0." And it caused a lot of fun. Cloud 1.0, if we just say is Amazon, compute, storage, not so much networking, but large scale born in the cloud goodness. Great. But now the reality of the enterprise and hybrid, things are emerging. Observability is important. Automation's important, workflows. How would you define cloud 2.0? What's the, if you had to take a stab at that kind of architectural definition. Where there's new subsystems emerging that are important. Like observability is just network management, but it's super important. >> Right. >> Automation, configuration management, but it's now automated. Those are now little white spaces that have become very important. >> Right. >> Where do you see the building blocks of cloud 2.0? >> So I think with cloud 1.0, I think it was characterized largely by like a lift and shift. Right, you said, okay, I can kind of see how it looks similar to my on-prem. I'm just going to lift and shift the same thing. Versus cloud 2.0 I think the phrase we like to use is it's multi-everything. Right, you're multi-cloud, right, it's multiple public cloud and on-prem. It's multi-platform. It's not just lift and shift of VM. It's great I have my VM-based workload, but I have my container, I have my Kubernetes, I have my serverless. So I have a ton of different platforms that I'm consuming. And it's also multi-service. Right, we talk about micro-service sort of patterns that's not just take my monolithic Java and move it to the cloud, it's decompose that one app into 50 services. Some are Container, some are serverless, some are VM. And mixing and matching all of that. So I think that 2.0 world is much more sort of dynamic. Much more sort of a diverse set of technologies that you're using. But to your point that brings in a bunch of enterprise reality of it's not managing one simple app anymore. There's a ton of complexity in managing the multi-cloud multi-platform nature of it. So I think there's a lot more investment in sort of management tooling and process to actually make that sort of sane. >> Well what's next for you guys? You guys are doing some great work, again, congratulations. HashiCorp has really earned great reputation, great user base, great following. People sing praises about your tools and software. What's next? What's it conquering next? >> I think you know, there's two things we recently announced. One was our sort of Terraform cloud service which was, Hey how do we take Terraform from just desktop tool? make it sort of a cloud experience where you can collaborate on it as a service. Sort of use APIs to hook it into your other systems. And similarly we announced a partnership with Microsoft on a console and Azure service. Right, so I think we're starting looking at that and saying really how do we kind of, you know. I think the irony of HashiCorp is, we're a cloud infrastructure company, but we sell desktop software. Right, like there's an obvious disconnect there. So I think how do we, sort of right that? And sort of say, okay, really people want to consume this stuff as a service. How do we meet them where they are? >> Offer both options. >> Exactly. >> Well, Armon, thanks a lot for coming on sharing. I know your super valuable time, coming on, appreciate it. >> Thanks so much. >> Good seeing you. HashiCorp here in theCUBE conversation, talking about what's going on in this dynamic world of modern infrastructure, modern software, where software's a core competence and multi-cloud reality's coming. CUBE covering is here, I'm John Furrier thanks for watching.

>>from New York. It's the Q covering escape. 19. Hey, welcome back to the Cube coverage here in New York City for the first inaugural multi cloud conference called Escape. We're in New York City. Was staying in New York, were not escapee from New York were in New York. So about Multi Cloud. And we're here. Lisa Marie Nancy, developer advocate for report works, and Eric Conn, vice president of products. Welcome back with you. >>Thank you, John. >>Good to see you guys. So whenever the first inaugural of anything, we want to get into it and find out why. Multiplied certainly been kicked around. People have multiple clouds, but is there really multi clouding going on? So this seems to be the theme here about setting the foundation, architecture and data to kind of consistent themes. What's your guys take? Eric, What's your take on this multi cloud trend? >>Yeah, I think it's something we've all been actively watching for a couple years, and suddenly it is becoming the thing right? So every we just had a customer event back in Europe last week, and every customer there is already running multi cloud. It's always something on their consideration. So there's definitely it's not just a discussion topic. It's now becoming a practical reality. So this event's been perfect because it's both the sense of what are people doing, What are they trying to achieve and also the business sense. So it's definitely something that is not necessarily mainstream, but it's becoming much more how they're thinking about building all their applications Going forward. >>You know, you have almost two camps in the world to get your thoughts on this guy's because like you have a cloud native people that are cloud needed, they love it. They're born in the cloud that get it. Everything's bringing along. The developers are on micro service's They're agile train with their own micro service is when you got the hybrid. I t trying to be hybrid developer, right? So you kind of have to markets coming together. So to me, Essie multi Cloud as a combination of old legacy Data Center types of I t with cloud native not just optioned. It was all about trying to build developer teams inside enterprises. This seems to be a big trend, and multi cloud fits into them because now the reality is that I got azure, I got Amazon. Well, let's take a step back and think about the architecture. What's the foundation? So that to me, is more my opinion. But I want to get your thoughts and reactions that because if it's true, that means some new thinking has to come around around. What's the architecture, What we're trying to do? What's the workloads behavior outcome look like? What's the workflow? So there's a whole nother set of conversations. >>Yeah, that happened. I agree. I think the thing that the fight out there right now that we want to make mainstream is that it's a platform choice, and that's the best way to go forward. So it's still an active debate. But the idea could be I want to do multi club, but I'm gonna lock myself into the Cloud Service is if that's the intent or that's the design architecture pattern. You're really not gonna achieve the goals we all set out to do right, So in some ways we have to design ourselves or have the architecture that will let us achieve the business schools that were really going for and that really means from our perspective or from a port Works perspective. There's a platform team. That platform team should run all the applications and do so in a multi cloud first design pattern. And so from that perspective, that's what we're doing from a data plane perspective. And that's what we do with Kubernetes etcetera. So from that idea going forward, what we're seeing is that customers do want to build a platform team, have that as the architecture pattern, and that's what we think is going to be the winning strategy. >>Thank you. Also, when you have the death definition of cod, you have to incorporate, just like with hybrid a teeny the legacy applications. And we saw that you throughout the years those crucial applications, as we call them. People don't always want them to refer to his legacy. But those are crucial applications, and our customers were definitely thinking about how we're gonna run those and where is the right places it on Prem. We're seeing that a lot, too. So I think when we talk about multi cloud, we also talk about what what is in your legacy? What is your name? I mean, I >>like you use legacy. I think it's a great word because I think it really nail the coffin of that old way because remember, if you think about some of the large enterprises these legacy applications didn't optimized for harden optimize their full stack builds up from the ground up. So they're cool. They're running stuff, but it doesn't translate to see a new platform design point. So how do you continue? This is a great fit for that, cos obviously is the answer. You guys see that? Well, okay, I can keep that and still get this design point. So I guess what I want to ask you guys, as you guys are digging into some of the customer facing conversations, what are they talking about? The day talking about? The platform? Specifically? Certainly on the security side, we're seeing everyone running away from buying tools were thinking about platform. What's the conversation like on the outside >>before your way? Did a talk are multiplied for real talk at Barcelona. Q. Khan put your X three on son. Andrew named it for reals of busy, but we really wanted to talk about multiplied in the real world. And when we said show of hands in Barcelona, who's running multi pod. It was very, very few. And this was in, what, five months? Four months ago? Whereas maybe our customers are just really super advanced because of our 100 plus customers. At four words, we Eric is right. A lot of them are already running multi cloud or if not their plan, in the planning stage right now. So even in the last +56 months, this has become a reality. And we're big fans of your vanities. I don't know if you know, Eric was the first product manager for Pernetti. T o k. He's too shy to say it on dhe. So yeah, and we think, you know, And when it does seem to be the answer to making all they caught a reality right now. >>Well, I want to get back into G k e. And Cooper was very notable historical. So congratulations. But your point about multi cloud is interesting because, you know, having multiple clouds means things, right? So, for instance, if I upgrade to office 3 65 and I killed my exchange server, I'm essentially running azure by their definition. If I'm building a stack I need of us, I'm a Navy best customer. Let's just say I want to do some tensorflow or play with big table. Are spanner on Google now? I have three clouds. No, they're not saying they have worked low specific objectives. I am totally no problem. I see that all the progressive customers, some legacy. I need to be people like maybe they put their tone a file. But anyone doing meaningful cloud probably has multiple clouds, but that's workload driven when you get into tying them together. It's interesting. I think that's where I think you guys have a great opportunity in this community because it open source convene the gateway to minimize the locket. What locket? I mean, like locking the surprise respect if its value, their great use it. But if I want to move my data out of the Amazon, >>you brought up so many good points. So let me go through a few and Lisa jumping. I feel like locking. People don't wanna be locked in at the infrastructure level. So, like you said, if there's value at the higher levels of Stack and it helps me do my business faster, that's an okay thing to exchange. But if it's just locked in and it's not doing anything. They're that's not equal exchange, right? So there's definitely a move from infrastructure up the platform. So locking in infrastructure is what people are trying to move away from. From what we see from the perspective of legacy, there is a lot of things happening in industry that's pretty exciting. How legacy will also start to run in containers, and I'm sure you've seen that. But containers being the basis you could run a BM as well. And so that will mean a lot for in terms of how VM skin start to be matched by orchestrators like kubernetes. So that is another movement for legacy, and I wanted to acknowledge that point now, in terms of the patterns, there are definitely applications, like a hybrid pattern where connect the car has to upload all its data once it docks into its location and move it to the data center. So there are patterns where the workflow does move the ups are the application data between on Prem into a public cloud, for instance, and then coming back from that your trip with Lisa. There is also examples where regulations require companies to enterprise is to be able to move to another cloud in a reasonable time frame. So there's definitely a notion of Multi Cloud is both an architectural design pattern. But it's also a sourcing strategy and that sourcing strategies Maura regulation type o. R in terms of not being locked in. And that's where I'm saying it's all those things. >>You love to get your thoughts on this because I like where you're going with this because it kind of takes it to a level of Okay, standardization kubernetes nights containing one does that. But then you're something about FBI gateways, for instance. Right? So if I'm a car, have five different gig weighs on my device devices or I have multiple vendors dealing with control playing data that could be problematic. I gotta do something. So I started envisioned. I just made that this case up. But my point is, is that you need some standards. So on the A p I side was seeing some trends there once saying, Okay, here's my stuff. I'll just pass Paramus with FBI, you know, state and stateless are two dynamics. What do you make of that? What? What what has to happen next to get to that next level of happiness and goodness because Ruben is has got it, got it there, >>right? I feel like next level. I feel like in Lisa. Please jump. And I feel like from automation perspective, Kubernetes has done that from a P I gateway. And what has to happen next. There's still a lot of easy use that isn't solved right. There's probably tons of opportunities out there to build a much better user experience, both from operations point of view and from what I'm trying to do is an intense because what people aren't gonna automate right now is the intent to automate a lot of the infrastructure manual tasks, and that's goodness. But from how I docked my application, how the application did, it gets moved. We're still at the point of making policy driven, easy to use, and I think there's a lot of opportunities for everyone to get better there. >>That's like Logan is priority looking fruity manual stuff >>and communities was really good at the food. That's a really use case that you brought up really. People were looking at the data now, and when you're talking about persistent mean Cooney's is great for stateless, but for St Paul's really crucial data. So that's where we really come in. And a number of other companies in the cloud native storage ecosystem come in and have really fought through this problem and that data management problem. That's where this platform that Aaron was talking about >>We'll get to that state problem. Talk about your company. I wanna get back Thio, Google Days, um, many war stories around kubernetes. We'll have the same fate as map reduce. You know, the debates internally and Google. What do we do with it? You guys made a good call. Congratulations doing that. What was it like to be early on? Because you already had large scale. You already had. Borg already had all these things in place. Was it like there was >>a few things I'll say One is. It was intense, right? It was intense in the sense that amazing amount of intelligence, amazing amount of intent, and right back then a lot of things were still undecided, right? We're still looking at how containers are package. We're still looking at how infrastructure Kate run and a lot of the service's were still being rolled out. So what it really meant is howto build something that people want to build, something that people want to run with you and how to build an ecosystem community. A lot of that the community got was done very well, right? You have to give credit to things like the Sig. A lot of things like how people like advocates like Lisa had gone out and made it part of what they're doing. And that's important, right? Every ecosystem needs to have those advocates, and that's what's going well, a cz ah flip side. I think there's a lot of things where way always look back, in which we could have done a few things differently. But that's a different story for different >>will. Come back and get in the studio fellow that I gotta ask you now that you're outside. Google was a culture shock. Oh my God. People actually provisioning software. Yeah, I was in a data center. Cultures. There's a little >>bit of culture shock. One thing is, and the funny thing is coming full circle in communities now, is that the idea of an application, right? The idea of what is an application eyes something that feels very comfortable to a lot of legacy traditional. I wanna use traditional applications, but the moment you're you've spent so much time incriminates and you say, What's the application? It became a very hard thing, and I used to have a lot of academic debates wise saying there is no application. It's it's a soup of resources and such. So that was a hard thing. But funny thing is covered, as is now coming out with definitions around application, and Microsoft announced a few things in that area to so there are things that are coming full circle, but that just shows how the movement has changed and how things are becoming in some ways meeting each other halfway. >>Talk about the company. What you guys are doing. Taking moments explaining contacts. Multi Cloud were here. Put worse. What's the platform? It's a product. What's the value proposition? What's the state of the company? >>Yes. So the companies? Uh well, well, it's grown from early days when Lisa and I joined where we're probably a handful now. We're in four or five cities. Geography is over 100 people over 150 customers and there. It's been a lot of enterprises that are saying, like, How do I take this pattern? Doing containers and micro service is, and how do I run it with my mission? Critical business crinkle workloads And at that point, there is no mission critical business critical workload that isn't stable so suddenly they're trying to say, How do I run These applications and containers and data have different life cycles. So what they're really looking for is a data plane that works with the control planes and how controlled planes are changing the behavior. So a lot of our technology and a lot of our product innovation has been around both the data plane but a storage control plane that integrates with a computer controlled plane. So I know we like to talk about one control plane. There's actually multiple control planes, and you mentioned security, right? If I look at how applications are running way, acting now securely access for applications and it's no longer have access to the data. Before I get to use it, you have to now start to do things like J W. T. Or much higher level bear tokens to say I know how to access this application for this life cycle for this use case and get that kind of resiliency. So it's really around having that >>storage. More complexity, absolutely needing abstraction layers and you compute. Luckily, work there. But you gotta have software to do it >>from a poor box perspective. Our products entirely software right down loans and runs using kubernetes. And so the point here is we make remarries able to run all the staple workloads out of the box using the same comment control plane, which is communities. So that's the experiences that we really want to make it so that Dev Ops teams can run anywhere close. And that's that's in some ways been part of the mix. >>Lisa, we've been covering Jeff up. Go back to 2010. Remember when I first I was hanging around? San Francisco? Doesn't eight Joint was coming out the woodwork and all that early days. You look at the journey of how infrastructures code. We'll talk about that in 2008 and now we'll get 11 years later. Look at the advancements you've been through this now the tipping point just seems like this wave is big and people are on developers air getting it. It's a modern renaissance of application developers, and the enterprise it's happening in the enterprise is not just like the energy. You're one Apple geeks or the foundation. It's happening in >>everyone's on board this time, and you and I have been in the trenches in the early stages of many open source projects. And I think with kubernetes Arab reference of community earlier, I'm super proud to be running the world's largest CNC F for user group. And it's a great community, a diverse community, super smart people. One of my favorite things about working poor works is we have some really smart engineers that have figured out what companies want, how to solve problems, and then we'll go credible open source projects. We created a project called autopilot, really largely because one of our customers, every who's in the G s space and who's running just incredible application, you can google it and see what the work they're doing. It's all out there publicly. Onda we built, you know, we've built an open source project for them to help them get the most out of kubernetes we can say so there's a lot of people in the community system doing that. How can we make communities better? Half We make competitive enterprise grade and not take years to do that. Like some of the other open source projects that we worked on, it took. So it's a super exciting time to be here, >>and open source is growing so fast. Now just think about having project being structured. More and more projects are coming online and user profit a lot more. Vendor driven projects, too used mostly and used with. Now you have a lot of support vendors who are users, so the line is blurring between then their user in open source is really fast. >>Will you look at the look of the landscape on the C N. C. F? You know the website. I mean, it's what 400 that are already on board. It's really important. >>They don't have enough speaking slasher with >>right. I know, and it's just it. It is users and vendors. Everybody's in the community together. It's one of things that makes it super exciting, and it's how we know this is This was the right choice for us. Did they communities because that's what? Everybody? >>You guys are practically neighbors. We look for CNN Studio, Palo Alto. I wanna ask you one final question on the product side. Road map. What you guys thinking As Kubernetes goes, the next level state, a lot of micro service is observe. Ability is becoming a key part of it. The automation configuration management things are developing fast. State. What's the road for you guys? For >>us, it's been always about howto handle the mission critical and make that application run seamlessly. And then now we've done a lot of portability. So disaster recovery is one of the biggest things for us is that customers are saying, How do I do a hybrid pattern back to your earlier question of running on Prem and in Public Cloud and do a D. R fail over into a Some of the things, at least, is pointing out. That we're announcing soon is non Terry's autopilot in the idea of automatically managing applications scale from a volume capacity. And then we're actually going to start moving a lot more into some of what you do with data after the life cycle in terms of backup and retention. So those are the things that everyone's been pushing us, and the customers are all asking, >>You know, I think data that recovery is interesting. I think that's going to change radically. And I think we look at the trend of how yeah, data backup recovery was built. It was built because of disruption of business, floods, our games. That's right. It is in their failure. But I think the biggest disruptions ransomware that malware. So security is now a active disruptor, So it's not like it After today. If we hadn't have ah, fire, we can always roll back. So you're infected and you're just rolling back infected code. That's a ransomware dream. That's what's going on. So I think data protection needs to redefine. >>What do you think? Absolutely. I think there's a notion of how do I get last week's data last month and then oftentimes customers will say If I have a piece of data volume and I suddenly have to delete it, I still need to have some record of that action for a long time, right? So those are the kinds of things that are happening and his crew bearnaise and everything, it gets changed. Suddenly, the important part is not what was just that one pot it becomes. How do I reconstruct everything? Action >>is not one thing. It's everywhere That's right, protected all through the platform. It is a platform decision. It's not some cattlemen on the side. >>You can't be a single lap. It has to be entire solution. And it has to handle things like, Where do you come from? Where is it allowed to go? >>You guys have that philosophy? >>We absolutely. And it's based on the enterprises that are adopting port works and saying, Hey, this is my romance. I'm basing it on Kubernetes here, my data partner. How do you make it happen? >>This speaks to your point of why the enterprise is in the vendors jumped in. This is what people care about security. How do you solve this last mile problem? Storage, Networking. How do you plug those holes and kubernetes? Because that is crucial. >>One personal private moment. Victory moment for me personally, Waas been a big fan of Cuban, is actually, you know, for years in there when it was created, talked about one of moments that got me was personal. Heartfelt moment was enterprise buyer on. The whole mindset in the enterprise has always been You gotta kill the old to bring in the new. And so there's always been that tension of a you know, the shame, your toy from Silicon Valley or whatever. You know, I'm not gonna just trash this and have a migration is a pain in the butt fried. You don't want that to do that. They hate doing migrations, but with containers and kubernetes, they actually they don't end of life to bring in the new project they could do on their own or keep it around. So that took a lot of air out of the tension in on the I t. Side. Because it's a great I can deal with the life cycle of my app on my own terms and go play with Cloud native and said to me, I was like, That was to be like, Okay, there it is. That was validation. That means this is real because now they will be without compromising. >>I think so. And I think some of that has been how the ecosystems embraced it, right, So now it's becoming all the vendors are saying My internal stack is also based on company. So even if you as an application owner or not realizing it, you're gonna take a B M next year and you're gonna run it and it's gonna be back by something like >>the submarine and the aircon. Thank you for coming on court. Worse Hot started Multiple cities Kubernetes Big developer Project Open Source Talking about multi cloud here at the inaugural Multi Cloud Conference in New York City Secu Courage of Escape Plan 19 John Corey Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: From New York, it's theCube. Covering Escape/19. (music plays) >> Welcome back everyone. It's Cube coverage for the first inaugural multicloud conference, Escape 2019. We are here with at Bassam Tabbara who is the CEO of Upbound, hot start-up, has not yet released their product but they're working on it. Good friend of theCube, Cube alumni. Bassam, good to see you again. >> Thank you, glad to be back on the Cube. >> Well we know your guys are beavering away, digging away at the product, building it out. You have a very compelling background coming into the cloud world. You're here at the multicloud, first ever conference >> That's right. >> There is hybrid cloud, but this is like being billed as the first multicloud conference. A lot of technical people here. >> Lots of. >> Lot of industry insiders setting the foundation is one theme I'm hearing and then the other theme is data. >> Yeah. >> These are the two dynamics. What's your take on this multicloud conference opportunity? >> Look, I think it's really interesting, it reflects kind of what's happening. Multicloud's becoming a reality, more and more people are, whether they like it or not, are actually using multiple vendors and they're trying to figure it out so I think it's great that we are now a forum, I mean there are likely to be more. We're doing one of the Atlanta Gitlab at the next KubeCon which is kind of cool. But you know so getting all the right people in here, focusing on the data problem. Where we look at from a universal control plain standpoint. There are lots of people here talking about the economics of this and what it means for venture capital in the next five years and what it means for acquisition patterns and NMA. There are lots of really interesting aspects being covered today. >> Yeah it's a classic inaugural conference where with the organic communities here you have a range of personas. Entrepreneurs, founder, executive, venture capitalists, all kind of having those candid conversations. What to do next. >> That's right. >> Kind of all ger multiclouds here. Questions is, what's it going to be? >> What's it going to be. Well I think I was trying to figure that out. Honestly, anything that makes it easy for enterprises to do this massive lifting and shifting of infrastructure and being able to control their data, deal with multiple vendors, the world is increasingly heterogeneous. That's another way of saying multicloud is just dealing with the heterogeneity. And it's going to be more and more heterogeneous because if you look at the trends, it's hard to imagine that all innovation is going to come out of one cloud company. Right. So if that's not the case then you have people innovating, people creating all sorts of new platforms and infrastructure. Ways of dealing with data, ways of dealing with networking. Or ways of dealing with storage. Data bases and everything else. Now that you've got this innovation happening, whether it's open source communities or not. And then as an enterprise user, I want to consume it, well I have to deal with the heterogeneity. How do I consume it? How do I bring it together? How do I make sense of it? How do I get it all secured? How do I get it all under my compliance department? Those are the opportunities that are on multicloud and it is a reality. So at some level I'd be hard pressed to find someone that says I'm using Amazon or Google or Azure only and not say using a boutique cloud or another service or something else. Everybody's got some set of services that are... >> I mean multicloud and multivendor are two words that you go back to the history of the computer industry >> That's right. multivendor is a heterogeneous environment. There's benefits of that. But all that was based upon the lock-in fear. And you'll be hearing some of that here. So what's your view of lock-in because if value creation is the lock-in, the red hat guys giving a talk about Wal-Mart cloud versus niche clouds, it's all open source so where's the lock-in? >> Yeah I don't know if I would subscribe to this as solving the lock-in problem and every time you use a vendor at some level you're kind of relying on them. If they have a good service you're kind of tied to them right? But the more interesting aspect to me is having a choice. So being able to say I'm going to pick the best data based vendor out there. One that suits my problem and being able to do that without having to let go of the integration aspect of us. If I have to choose a data based SaaS service that I really like but the cost of doing that involves me creating a new vendor or doing some custom automation, custom integration, figuring out monitoring, figuring out logging doing billing, doing metering. All of that stuff so that I can actually just consume one amazing service. That's a really large hurdle to kind of step over. And so, I think part of multicloud is reducing friction for being able to use things that you choose to. >> Do you have any commentary or advice for other founders or other CEOs or even any younger developers because we have a classical trained software developers, they think a certain way. They either were pipe lining it different, not doing Agile, their trained at Agile, but now micro service is a whole nother ballgame. How do you get people to think microservices when they've been classically trained Agile. >> Like Waterfall you're saying? >> Or Waterfall, both, both. >> I think there's a lot happening right now. I would start with looking at some of the best practices around building modern services. Things like Kubernetes and others help. Microservice adoption and all that stuff. But start with, honestly starting with a bunch of open sources probably not a bad place to be. But then find vendors that actually can support in one what you want to do. >> Final question. Tell us about your company. What's going on with you guys. Give an update on Upbound. What's going on? It's going great. We're growing. We launched this project called Crossplain. Like earlier or late last year. It's doing great. We're getting a ton of adoption on it. We're super happy with it. And we're growing the company. We're almost tripled the company this year. Which is fantastic. And working on a SaaS offering that we're exciting about. Hopefully we'll come back here and talk about it when it's... >> And you guys hiring? Looking for people? What's the update there? >> We are. We're hiring on the engineering side, we're hiring on the product side. It's start up so. You never stop hiring. >> Not for the faint of heart. >> Definitely not. >> Bassam, thanks for coming out. >> Yeah absolutely. Always fun. >> Here at the multicloud inaugural event. Escape. Here in New York City. Escape 2019 I'm John Furrier with theCube. Back with more after this short break.

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE covering Escape/19. (techno music) >> Hey welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of the first inaugural, Multi-Cloud Conference in New York City. It's called Escape/2019. I'm here with Brendan O'Leary, Senior Solutions Architect with GitLab. Is that right, Senior Solutions Architect? >> Brendan: Close enough, Manager, you know. >> Manager, architect, you work at GitLab, you're technical, so we'll have a good chat here. Welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> First Multi-Cloud Conference, really we love to go to the inaugural anything. >> Sure. >> Just in case it's not around next year, we can say we were here. It looks like it's got some legs, some interesting conversations I see in the hallways. You know, you guys are a big part of this revolution. GitLab, your company, you're providing opensource repositories, free, to get people to get started, as well you got paid stuff, as well. Hot area. GitHub was acquired by Microsoft. Some say Microsoft's not going to meddle with that. We'll see, but still, a super-important part of the community that you guys are involved in. >> It's true. We're seeing this multi-cloud revolution, if you want to call it that, with a lot of our customers, right? It's no longer that you pick one cloud, and that's where everything's going to run. You're going to have acquisitions. You're going to have the desire to negotiate and have a negotiating position with your vendors. You're going to want to use functionality that's maybe only in one of the clouds. And so we're really seeing this multi-cloud become more of a norm. And that's why we think it's critical to have a DevOps platform that's independent from that, so that you can deploy everywhere. >> So what's the lock-in spec? I mean, basically the thesis is that if you want to negotiating leverage, you want to have multi-cloud. I get the whole, "there's multiple clouds," because, upgrade to Office 365, you got Azure, basically. So, multi-vendor, multi-cloud, totally buy it. But what's the lock-in spec that's getting people agitated, or thinking about multi-cloud? >> Yeah, I think it's interesting, because there's both, of course, the technical side. Like I said, you might have functionality that you want to run that's only available on one cloud. But, the finance folks, and everyone else gets concerned about, "Hey, are we going to get locked into some vendor, "where we don't have any ability to negotiate?" And so I think that is part of it, and I read, as part of prepping for my talk here, a 2019 state-of-cloud report that said 84% of enterprises, today, are using more than one cloud. So I think that's indicative of that desire to not-- You may have a primary cloud where you deploy things, but you're going to use more than one. >> I think that's a fair reality. I mean, probably more, I mean, if you count all these, how they're bundling apps in there. What's your talk going to be about? Is it today or tomorrow? >> So, I'm talking tomorrow, and I'm talking about a framework for making decisions about multi-cloud. 'Cause again, I think that a lot of the times we get bogged down in the technology, and picking features over what we're really looking for, which is the business value of being able to have a single view, a single application, a single platform for your developers to be able to deploy, kind of no matter where it's going to end up, in the end, right? We don't want the developer having to think about that, necessarily, when they're building the application. We want to deliver value to our customers, right? And so we want them to be doing that differentiated work. >> Me and Armon were talking earlier, HashiCorp, CTO of HashiCorp, and he was talking about workflows, and I was talking about, okay, workloads. So, if you just take those two concepts, workflows and workloads, and just strip out any other technical conversation, what's the framework? Because, these are real issues. Those are the--that's the continuity issue for the business, not the tech. So, fill in the blanks around that. How does that--how do I get multi-cloud out of making sure my workflows aren't disrupted, and my workloads are kicking ass and doing their job? >> Yeah, I would say that that's a great question, and we love HashiCorp and what they've done for our space, and for multi-cloud, in general. They're a great partner for us. But I think the key is, the workflow you generally want to be the same, no matter where you're deploying, right? You want to have confidence that the code your building is secure, it's going to work, it's been tested, and, no matter where it deploys in the end, you want to have that same kind of workflow for your developers. But you also want to have workload portability, right? So, when you're talking about the ability to have a negotiating position, or the ability to run in multiple clouds, the same application, you know, have disaster recovery, have not just this monolith--mono-cloud environment, you have to have workload portability, as well. >> Well, Brendan, I'm not sure if they're taping your interview. Hope they are. If they are, then we'll get those copies in our video on cloud. But, you've got a framework for multi-cloud, and with the reality that everyone wants, or has either inherited, or has, or will want a multi-vendor environment, what is that framework for negotiating, or setting up the foundation? Because the theme here, my interviews here, and the hallway conversations, two things: One is foundational discussions around multi-cloud, I mean, early, thought leaders laying out, here's some lines to think about. And then, two, data. So, two, interesting, common threads, here: foundational thinking and data. >> I think that foundational thinking's important, because I think that's really what my framework gets to is, hey, we want to look at not just the technology, and not those answers. We want to look at, what are the business metrics that we're driving towards, right? 'Cause, in the end, again, that's what we want to be driving in software is our businesses. And, so, what are the business metrics that we're going to use, and how can we make it efficient? How can we make it governed? And how can we make it visible across those clouds? I think those are the three things to be focused on. >> And is there a certain way? So is it more, situational, based upon the environment, because maybe there's weights of certain variables over others? >> I think so. I think, depending on your environment, right? You maybe in a more highly regulated environment where governance is the number one, it's the king. But I think everyone has those governance concerns, right? None of us want to wake up to a security call that we should have known about, right? >> How's things going on in your world? GitLab, you guys are doing great. Good to see you guys got a big round of funding, recently. >> Going great. >> GitHub just sold for billions of dollars. That's a nice comp. >> Yeah, no, I say it's nice when someone sells a house in your neighborhood for a lot of money, right? But, yeah, no, what we see from that is the industry moving toward this single tool for your DevOps lifecycle, for your DevOps tool chain, and your DevOps lifecycle. We want to be able to have one way that developers deploy code, and we're seeing that kind of consolidation in the market. And we've had great success with that, so far. Our stated pubic desire is to go public next year. And we're on track for that, right now. So, we're looking forward to it. >> You know what's interesting and I love is the subtext to all this plot, which is, there's a human equation in all this, right? The human capital, human resource, the people-side of the equation, the cultural shifts in these companies, your customers, now. Any observational commentary that you can share around how DevOps has kind of gone mainstream? Any cultural shifts around people and their behaviors and their affinity towards certain things? >> Yeah, it's an interesting question. I saw an article yesterday about a CIO who was being promoted to CEO, as the current CEO stepped down, and how that was kind of a novel thing. But the article was actually talking about how we're going to see more of that, right? Businesses, eight years ago, Marc Andreesen said that software is eating the world. Well, I think software has eaten the world, and we're seeing that in our businesses, as every company becomes a software company. >> And open source, JJ would argue at OSS Capital, that there's new business models emerging, as well. And new opportunities, as well, for everyone involved. Open source software, cloud computing, multi-cloud, it's a great wave. >> It is a big wave, and, you know, GitLab's based on an open-source project, right? And so, just, we were founded only back in 2014, as a company, but we've come to find a business model that works, open-core, and we think there's a lot of opportunity in the market for folks to follow, and open source to have an even bigger impact than it's already had on the market. >> Final question for you, Brendan. What do you think about this conference, some of the hallway conversations, what's the vibe? For the folks that aren't here, what's it like? >> Oh, I mean, I think it's great. I think there's been a lot of great discussions, again, about very foundational things, about, hey, how do we look at this as a business leaders? But, then, I've also had great discussions about the technology and about Kubernetes, about those kinds of things that really enable us to have those kinds of conversations. >> Some good relationships being developed here. People know each other, too. >> Exactly, yeah, people I haven't seen in a long time, or people that I work with that I haven't seen 'cause we're all remote. >> It's great to see it in New York, too. >> Yeah, I love it in New York. So, I'm from DC, so it's a quick train ride up, but I love coming up, though. >> Not like us in California, big plane ride. Brendan, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, great, thank you very much for having me. >> I'm John Furrier, here at the first, inaugural conference, Escape/19, back with more of that after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCube. Covering Escape/19. (techno music) >> Yeah, welcome back to theCube's coverage here in New York City for the first ever inaugural multicloud conference called Escape 2019, escape, we're in New York, we're not escaping from New York, we're escaping from the cloud. Jim Walker, Vice President of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs, the custodian/founders of Cockroach Database. Welcome back, good to see you. >> Congratulations on your new role, new gig. Been there for a while? >> Yeah it's been a while since I've seen you, John, I've jumped out of the data space and into Kubernetes, and so, yeah, I landed at Cockroach Labs about a year ago. And having fun. >> It's interesting, the game is still the same, data is still the same as a value proposition, but software. >> Yeah. >> Data is now code, data is looking, interacting with software, data control planes, data layers, data lakes. All this is an evolution of stuff we were talking about back in the open source days at Hortonworks. The data is in motion, data in flight, data at rest, data is continuing to be critical in automation, security, every single app. >> Yeah, it's at the center of the big battle right now, right, there's this like... I just sense there's a larger battle going on for the platform right now, and the platform is being battled out by these large public cloud providers, and it's who can get compute, who can get actually, you know, people, residents in their cloud. Data has always been the centerpiece of that. Data is gravity, if it was on, before it was on-premise, so the battle was in-house at all these people and now it's like how do we get this stuff to move over. >> Yeah, we were talking before you came on camera, it helps we talk online a lot, and have a lot of connected friends in the cloud native space, but now that Cloud 2.0 has arrived, where it's enterprise hybrid, people are starting to get excited about that, you're seeing the re-platformization or refactoring or whatever word you want to use, a modern enterprise architecture, that has the best of cloud native, has the best of what the enterprise used to do with comput-- like mini-computers, whatnot, now packaged up an operating model. This modernization trend is hitting everything, note, developers, security, this is kind of where you're playing right now. Look what Google's done with Spanner database and where that's all come from in these kinds of large-scale data problems. Modernization's here, what's your take on this? >> Yeah, I know this is modernization, but it's stuff we've been doing for a long time. It's like, you know, I was talking to Steve Mulaney earlier, Steve's brilliant, right, and Steve's talking about 1992 we saw this transition to kind of client server. I've never seen anything like this trans... This transition and this modernization is much bigger than any of the other trends that we've been through. Back when we were talking before it was the Hadoop game, and we were talking modern data architecture, how do we actually transform the way we thought about data from these kind of single stovepipes of data into larger data lakes and this sort of thing. That was the beginning. What we're seeing this time though is a massive transformation up and down the stack of which data is one huge, massive piece of that. And as we know, man, data has gravity and it's at the center of this battle again. >> What's your definition of multicloud? We're at the first ever multicloud conference, what is multicloud? >> You know I get asked this a fair amount, so as I was looking for speakers it was like, "Well, what do you mean, a multicloud conference, what does that even mean?" There's a lot of people, multicloud unbelievers. I think we already live in a multicloud world. I think hybrid cloud is just multicloud. I talked to a lot of people through the CFP process for the conference. I had guys who were running edge computing platforms saying, "Talk to me about this", I'm like, "Well, if you look at it, it's just servers, they're just servers that are everywhere" and actually, how do we actually start to attach all this stuff. It's all multicloud, you know what is the cloud but a bunch of different servers that somebody else owns? You may own them, you may not. The challenge is going to be how do we tie all that together? >> Computer history has proven, if anything, heterogeneous environments, multi-vendor. You can go back and talk about, the comment about the client server, I mean, that was a real threat to the mainframe. Internetworking completely changed the game. At that time PCs were exploding in growth, and multi-vendor was a big buzzword. And that was the reality, you had to compete and service multiple vendors in an environment. >> Yeah, and-- >> Multiple cloud is just multiple vendors. >> John, it's called the multicloud conference, and you know my friend Joseph Jacks, I mean Joseph and I have a lot of conversations about things, you know, and he's brilliant in terms of how he thinks about commercial open source and how these things are, and you know I really played around with changing the name of this to the open and independent cloud conference, because that's really what this is about, it's about how do we have a conversation, in the open, about how we open up the cloud? I just thought, I was a little frustrated with some of the conferences I went to because, I think people are talking about this, but it's not lip service, it's just difficult to talk about it in a broader sense. >> Well, I'm really glad you did this because I've been calling multicloud bullshit on theCube for over a year, Stu and I have debates about this, and you know, putting-- >> I watched. >> Okay, of course, but people who know what I mean know that I believe that multicloud reality of "I have Amazon, I got Azure, I mean, hell, if you upgrade Office 365, you have Azure, so that's another cloud. So yes, people have multiple clouds in their environment, but the foundational work is being done now, you guys are doing it, and that's what I was getting at. There's no multiclouding going on, meaning sense of the seamless workload, what HashiCorp is doing, so this is the foundational, what you guys are getting at, in my mind, at least from my perspective, is a foundational conversation around what is the foundation of multicloud look like. >> And John, there is a technical equation here. I think a lot of people will argue the technical merits of what is multicloud, is it even possible to combine networking and security and all, those are really difficult problems to solve. At Cockroach Labs, to solve the database problem, to solve the data problem, to actually have, you know I could spin up a node at Cockroach on this laptop that's sitting next to you and have that participate in a database that spans multiple clouds, that's awesome. But there's a whole other side of this conversation, John, around what does it mean for my skills in my organization, what does it mean for the financial side of things, the legal, and so I think we're all dealing with a lot of these multicloud concepts, we're just not addressing them yet, and so, it's complex. >> Well, first of all, it's fun too, I mean it's complex, but innovation is complex. But here's the thing, Dave and I were joking around Cloud 2.0 and we picked that term, talking about Cloud 2.0, mainly because I remember during Web 2.0, it was just, everyone was just, "What is Web"..., and to create such a debate, so to goof on Web 2.0 we said Cloud 2.0, but what we mean is that it's changing, right? I'll give you an example, I mean to me Cloud 2.0 or multicloud is having a fully horizontal scalable infrastructure, that on-demand, elastic resource with domain specialty application development that takes advantage of data and machine learning for domain-specific context. And then having an addressable data layer on top of that. That to me is multicloud. >> And being able to service your customers no matter where they are. And unfortunately the public copywriters don't have full coverage across the whole planet so we inherently live in this multicloud world. If you wanted to pull an application today, I'm sorry but the world is your audience, there's no segmenting your app to just New York, right? And so how you actually service customers when they're coming at you from all over the planet. It's another challenge that we have. Fortunately I want to add to your Cloud Two conversation, I'm sorry the Cloud 2.0 conversation, that it is a world of hybrid and multi and multi region and single region and it's the evolution between these different kind of flavors of this situation, I feel is the emerging trend that's happening and we're-- >> Well categories are changing, network management becomes observability, configuration management becomes automation, the old database becomes a different kind of database for you, data protection is cyber protection. There's redefining moments here where white spaces are becoming larger categories. I mean, look at observability, probably going public, getting bought. >> John, look at what Google did over the past, like, 10, 12 years and look at the startups that are now out there that are kind of doing this really innovative stuff. We have LightStep here, you know Cockroach is another great example, what the Upbound team is doing, so people have been through this. From a data point of view we couldn't agree more. I can spin up an instance of RDS, Postgres and it's going to be a single instance, it's going to live in one region and that's going to service one bit of a cloud in one corner of the world. The cloud, and this massive distribution of stuff, it changed, you have to inherently start over when you're building these technologies, and that's why the CNCF has come about, right, is there's a fundamentally different approach-- >> CNCF, I love those guys and we're going to go to do CubeCon, but one of the things that I was talking with hashCode co-founder earlier today, he was talking about workflows. I was talking about workloads, and so I think the conversation is still technical and geeky but if you just abstract out all of the nerd talk and geek talk and say, "What's the workflow and what's the workload?", you go, okay, no other buzzwords should be talked. You've got to go onstage, so you've got to go. Jim Walker, Vice President of Product Marketing, Cockroach Labs, good friend of theCube, and our producer of this show, Mike Harold and the team, Escape/19, first inaugural multicloud conference. Be back with more after this short break. (techno music)

[Announcer] - From New York, it's theCUBE! Covering ESCAPE/19. >> Hello, welcome back to theCUBE coverage here in New York City for the first inaugural Multi-Cloud Conference called ESCAPE/2019. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here with Natalie Gholmieh who is the Manager of Data and Integration Services at the University of California San Diego campus/office- sprawling data center, tons of IT, a lot of challenges, welcome. >> Yeah, thank you for having me. >> So, thanks for taking the time out. You're a practitioner, you're here. Why are you at this conference? What are you hoping to gain from here? What interests you here at the Multi-Cloud Escape Conference? >> So, this conference is very much within the spirit of what we're trying to do. Our CIO has directives which is to avoid lock-in, to do multi-vendor orchestration, to go with containers first, and open-source wherever possible. So, this conference pretty much speaks to all of that. >> So, this is a really interesting data point, because it seems the common thread is data. >> Mhmm. >> The cloud is an integration of things, so people are trying to find that integration point so they can have multiple vendors, multiple clouds. It seems like the multi-vendor world back in the old days, where you had multiple vendors, heterogeneous environment, data seems to be the linchpin in all this. >> Right, yes. >> That's what you do. >> Right. >> How do you think about this? Because it used to be that the big database ran the world, now you have lots of databases, you have applications. >> Right, yeah. >> Databases are everywhere now. >> Data is born in multiple systems, but the data is also an asset right now to all of the organizations, including the university. So, what we want to try to accomplish is to get all of this data possibly in one place, or in multiple places, and be able to do analytics on top of this, and this is what the value-added processing over the data. >> What's exciting to you these days in the University? You guys try to change the business, could be technology? What are the cool things that you like, that you're working with right now, or that you envision emerging? >> Yeah. So, my team is currently building a platform to do all of the data integration and we are planning to offer this platform as a service to developers to streamline and standardize application development, as well as integration development, within the central IT at the University. So this is pretty much the most exciting thing that we're doing, is putting together this platform that is quite complex, it is a journey that we're taking together with the people who already operate the existing systems. So we're putting up this new thing that we're operating in parallel and then we will be migrating to that new platform. >> I'm sure containers are involved, >> Yes. >> Kubernetes is a key part of it. >> Yes, mhmm. So, the platform has two parts. There is the application publishing with Docker and Kubernetes, and we also have the streaming side of it, to build the data pipeline with open-source tools like Apache NiFi and Apache Kafka. So this is going to be wiring the data pipelines from source to target and moving the data in real time in order to- >> And you see that as a nice way to keep an option to move from cloud to cloud? >> Potentially, since the platform's role is to decouple the infrastructure from development. That way, you could spin a portion of the platform on any cloud, pretty much, and run your workload anywhere you want. >> So classic DevOps. >> Yeah. >> Separate infrastructure as code, provide a codified layer. >> Yeah. >> So, let me ask you a question. How did you get into all this data business? I mean, what attracted you to the data field? What's your story? Tell us your story. >> So, the data, you know, I personally started, I mean, I had more of a networking background. Then I became Sys Admin, then I got into the business of logging and log aggregation for machine data, and then I was, you know, using that data to create dashboards of system health and, you know, data correlation, and this is what exposed me, personally, first to the data world, and then I saw the value in doing all of this with data, and the value is even more impactful to the business when you're working with actual business data. So I'm very excited about that. >> So you were swimming in the first data lake before data lakes were data lakes. >> Yes, yeah, right, for machine data. >> Once you're in there, you see value, the data exhaust comes in, as we used to say back in the day, data exhaust! >> Yeah. >> So, now that you're dealing with the business value, is the conversation the same? Or are they different conversations? Or is it still the same, kind of, data conversation? Or is the job the same? Because you still have machine data, applications are throwing off data, you have infrastructure data being thrown off, you have new software layers. >> Yes, yeah. >> Is it the same, or is it different? Describe your current situation. >> You know, maybe the concepts are the same, but I think the logging machine data has more value to IT to give insights on how to improve your SLAs, within the scope of IT, but the business data really will impact the business, the whole entire university for us. So, one of the things that we're doing on the business side with the business data is to provide some analytics on the student data in order to increase their chances for success. So, getting all of that data, doing some reports and pattern analytics, and then coaching the students. >> Not a bad place to live, in San Diego, is it? >> Oh, it's excellent. >> Weather's always perfect? >> Oh, yeah. >> Marine layer's not as bad as L.A., but, you know. >> Yeah. >> Or is it? >> No, we do have- The university is right on the coast, so yeah. Sometimes it's gloomy the whole entire day. >> I love it there. I wish I could've gone to school at the University of San Diego. >> It is great. It's a great place to be. >> Love to go down, see my friends in La Jolla, Del Mar, beautiful areas. Great country. >> Yeah. >> Well, thank you for coming on and sharing your insights into multi-cloud and some of the thinking. It seems to be very foundational right now in its whole thinking. >> Mhmm. >> There's no master plan yet. People are really having good conversations around how to set it all up. >> Yeah. >> The architecture. >> Right. >> The role. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Do you see the same thing? >> Yes, architecture is actually a very essential piece of it because you need to plan before you go. If you go without planning, I think your bill is going to be off the roof. >> Huge bill. >> Yeah. >> And you'll sink in the quicksand and the data lake and you can be sucked into the data swamp. >> Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, architecture is a big piece of it, design, then build, and then continuous improvement, that's a huge thing at UC San Diego. >> You know what I get excited about? I get excited about real time, and how real time, time series data is becoming a big part of the application development, and understanding the context between good data and bad data. >> Mhmm. >> It's always a hard problem. It's a hard tech problem. >> Yeah, that is true, yeah. There are a lot of processes that should be set around the data to make sure the data's clean and it's a good data set and all of that. >> If data's an asset, then has it got a value? Is it on the balance sheet? Shouldn't we value the data? Some data's more valuable than others? It's a good question, huh? >> It is a good question, but I don't know the answer to that. >> No one knows. We always ask the question. I think that's a future state where at some point, data can be recognized, but right now it's hard to tell what's valuable or not. >> I think the value is in the returned services and the value-added services that you, as an organization, can bring to your customer base. This is where the value is, and if you want to put a dollar amount on that, I don't know, it's not my job. >> Thank you so much for coming on, special time of conversation. >> Thank you. >> CUBE Conversation here, the CUBE Coverage of the first inaugural Multi-Cloud Conference called ESCAPE/19, where the industry best are coming together. Practitioners, entrepreneurs, founders, executives, and finally, just talking about what multi-cloud really can be, foundationally what needs to be in place. And this is what happens here at these conferences, tons of hallway conversations. Natalie, thank you for spending the time with us. CUBE Coverage, I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat techno music) >> Narrator: From New York, it's theCUBE, Covering Escape/19. >> Okay, welcome back to theCUBE coverage here in New York City for the first inaugural Multi-Cloud Conference called Escape/2019 as in gathering of industry thought leaders, experts, entrepreneurs, engineers, really having substantive conversations around what multi-cloud is, what it's going to look like, what are some of the thing, technical and business opportunities around that, really small intimate conference. Again first inaugural conference. I'm here with my next guest to talk about that Chris Smith, Vice President of Engineering, on Data Science at Ticketmaster. Chris, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much Don. >> Appreciate taking the time. >> Glad to talk to you. >> Practitioner out there, you know, we all go scar tissue. >> Yes we do. >> If you don't have scar tissue, if you're not breaking things and then the learning from it then you're not advancing. But sometimes you don't want to step too far forward right? >> Yep, yep. >> Can you get back it's like you know. So you guys have a great experience. Legacy business, I remember buying tickets when I was going to conference back in the day when I was in, you know, in college. >> Yep. >> Buy it at Ticketmaster. >> That's right, that was Ticketmaster then, Ticketmaster now. >> Now it's lot of online provisioning of all direct to consumer. So you guys are a journey, tell the story. >> Well certainly, the company Ticketmaster, has had an incredibly long journey, starting back our first concert was Electric Light Orchestra which kind of like puts that in in context. >> (laughs) I was in eighth grade, '79. >> Yeah, yeah that was back at ASU. And even then we were a very innovative technology company we were making ticketing platforms that performed better, got more capacity out of the hardware than anybody else could do, anything close to that. We were really pioneered that idea of the what was at the time called the electronic ticket. Which was the idea that, you know, you could go to any store that was selling tickets for an event and the same inventory would be available at each store instead of the old model of a bunch of tickets getting sent out to each place >> That was bad-ass back in the day. >> That was really cutting edge and we've been evolving ever since then for 40 years. We were also very early onto the web scene. We were selling tickets online before anybody else was and before most people were selling anything online really to a degree. So we've been pioneers in a lot of areas, we see ourselves as the technology partner for the live events business. That's really what we are. And as a consequence, we're always sitting on that edge right? Trying to innovate and move to new opportunities but at the same time trying to provide that quality of experience at scale. >> Yeah. >> That is so critical to the business. >> And there's a big business so it's not like it's your nimble start up but you got to be agile. What are the learnings? Take us through the cloud learnings as you guys pioneered and started to go into that pioneering mode which was okay, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what a cloud's going to do. So you guys probably said hey, we got to go look at this, let's go pioneer our impact, take us through that what happened? >> Yeah absolutely, and I think there's two interesting contexts that started that conversation right? One was we're one of the few online businesses that launches a denial of services attack against itself on a regular basis, basically every day, right? And so we have traffic patterns that are unusual even for a typical e-commerce site where we might see loads that are a hundred x, you know beginning of a Taylor Swift on sale. There's going to be traffic like no one's business. And then when all her tickets are sold, there's not going to be nearly as much traffic right? And so that is the nature of our business and cloud is very attractive for its elastic capacity. When we were running on prim, we have to provide all that capacity all the time, just to have it for that one peak moment that might literally be the highest traffic level we see all year, right? So that drew a lot of the interest in looking at the cloud in the first place. And then the other aspect was we'd been working on, you know we'd been running on prim for nearly 40 years at the time and there is a lot of technical debt that had accumulated in the system at that point. And so, there was an interest in maybe potentially being able to leverage cloud vendors' infrastructure, and migrate systems onto that and then sort of declare bankruptcy on some of that technical debt rather than trying to pay it off. And so that, those were the two thoughts that were driving that conversation. I think we got really excited by the possibility and we committed really heavily to the idea of a strategy of just moving aggressively into the cloud as fast as we possibly could. And we knew that in the process, that we would be breaking some things, we'd be you know discovering some challenges et cetera, and that's definitely what happened, right? >> (laughs) What was the big learning? >> I think the biggest learning was that, you know, we had been developing systems for decades literally, with our on prim environment and so the systems were actually very well tuned for that on prim environment and that on prim environment was very well tuned for them. >> Yeah, yeah exactly. >> And it clouds use-- >> On all levels, hardware, software. >> Yeah, all the way through 'cause it's a fully integrated, vertically integrated solution. We build a lot of this stuff custom ourselves. >> John: Yeah, and we would decompose all that. >> And so it was very difficult to migrate some parts of that to the cloud and more importantly we're pretty smart guys, we can figure out how to move stuff into the cloud. But then to do it in a cost effective manner. Required in a lot of cases, really dramatically changing the design and architecture even of the software at a pretty fundamental level that you just can't do overnight. And so ironically, you know, the technical debt that we had in our infrastructure didn't seem quite so huge once you start thinking about the technical debt of the entire stack, right? And so then we realized that we could be much more strategic about how we went after our cloud strategy and that's kind of where we are now. Where we are being smart about, there's a lot of new products that are being developed, that, you know, we can build from the get go with the idea of them being designed for the cloud. >> Cloud native. >> Exactly, so we have a lot of stuff like that, that's just being built, in fact, the bulk of our website now when you go to visit it as a consumer, the bulk of that is running in the cloud right now. But, there are some really critical systems that are core to that experience, that are still running on prim. >> So you guys had to essentially re-architect the operating environment to take into account hybrid operating. >> Yes. >> Decoupling the critical systems that can't be tampered with, maybe put some containers of Kubernetes move some services around. But for the most part treat Cloud Native as Cloud Native, Greenfield apps and nurture-- >> Yeah but there's also refactoring opportunities. So there's a lot of opportunities where you need to go in and change the product anyway and that can be an opportunity to make things a lot more cloud friendly and better take advantage of the capabilities that the cloud has, so it's actually a mix of both. >> Give an example of a good opportunity to refactory, 'cause this comes up a lot in my CUBE interviews. Like okay, 'cause it's all opportunity, opportunistic, but what are the characteristics for a great refactoring opportunity the tune up? >> So a lot of times when you want to refactor really what you want to do is take a set of capabilities that you may have in a much larger system and pull 'em out and manipulate them and play around with them and do things differently. So, our ticket purchasing process we're constantly looking at tweaking the process. Now the core pieces of it remain the same right? But we might want to change the experience and provide something more innovative that's different from what people used to do. And so one of the areas we're working on for this as an example is reserve-less checkout. Where you just buy the ticket without ever actually reserving the seat. That's a very small minor change in the flow, but to make that really work you have to pull out the pieces of the system anyway right? And grab, say I want these four pieces to rearrange differently, so that's a great refactoring opportunity. You can make all those pieces, what we actually did is we've made those pieces into lambdas that are sitting in AWS, they're basically not running most of the time which is great. >> Yeah. (laughs) >> Really cheap when it's not running right? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Very efficient. But then when we need them they run very efficiently and more importantly we can now manipulate the order of operations for this stuff. So breaking things out into those composable parts whenever you know you need to do that anyway, it's a great opportunity to change it. >> So great for work flow refactoring there. >> Absolutely. >> Final question for you, I know we got to break for lunch, but, then really appreciate you coming and sharing your insight. >> Absolutely. >> As a pioneer in data science and data you got machine learning certainly is the engine of AI. AI gets math and cognition are kind of coming into it. Learning machines, deep learning, bla bla bla, what's your, in your opinion, what are some pioneering areas that are ripe pioneering grounds to dig into in data science and data? When you think about CloudScale, Hybrid and just, in general what are the ripe opportunities for people to pioneer in daily. What's the next frontier in your mind? >> So I think the trend right now that's maybe not the frontier, but it's now where the main shift is, is to moving into what I would call real time learning, right? Where you're doing refactor, reinforcement learning, or online learning of some form. Where you're literally, the data's arriving in real time, transforming your model in real time, learning in real time, that's key to our strategy and it's very very common. But I think in terms of where the frontiers are it's actually kind of everywhere, in the sense that the name of the game is the cost of doing that work is getting lower and lower. You know, data's getting cheaper, computes' getting cheaper, and also the products for doing it are getting more productized, so you need less expertise and you can deploy them more quickly. So what you want to look at is businesses that are traditionally been too low margin right? To apply machine learning to but have large scale, right? Which is like the commodity, everything in that's commoditized, right? Now there's an opportunity to, there's the cost have gone so low-- >> To squeeze insight out of those areas. >> That you can now optimize that small margin and get value from it with you know, otherwise like 10 years ago it would have been so costly to build a machine learning infrastructure for it. You would've lost more money than you would've gained. >> So you could, what your saying is, these areas that were not attractive because of cost in the past, that have large scale, there's penetration opportunities to create value and insight that could-- >> Absolutely. >> Bring in new franchises and new capabilities. >> And that's why I think you know the Andreessen's software's eating the world thing, that's what that's really about is as those costs get lower, as the ability to deploy gets easier, suddenly businesses that before didn't make any sense to invest in this way, they totally make sense and in fact there's huge opportunities to completely transform the landscape by getting in. >> Chris you're a man of our world, we love you, thank you for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you so much. >> That's great insight. >> Look at this we're getting insider on the future of data, which I believe everything that he just said is totally relevant. You're an entrepreneur out there, you can attack big markets and get in there with a position with great IP, great intellectual property, again this is the modern world of computer science. >> It is. >> Don't ya think? >> It absolutely is. >> This is the benefit of scale and cloud. >> Absolutely. >> I wish I was 20 something years old again. (laughs) We've been through the ringer. >> Yes. >> Chris, thanks for coming on. Keep coverage here in New York for the first inaugural conference, Escape/2019, I'm John Furrier here, thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From New York, it's The Cube. Covering ESCAPE/19. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to The Cube coverage New York City for the inaugural multi-cloud conference. The first one ever in the industry. It's called Escape 2019. We're in New York so escaping from New York, escaping from cloud, that's the conversation. All the thought leaders are here and executives. People thinking about the next generation architecture and talk tracks are all here. Fritz Wetschnig who's the Chief Information Security Officer for Flextronics. >> Flex, yes. >> Flex, thank you for coming on. Love to have CISOs on because security seems to be always the top conversation. You got a very busy job. >> I do yes. (laughing) >> You're under a lot of pressure all the time >> It's fun, it's still fun for me. So, yeah, a CISO, it's always like security's top in mind, right, of everyone now these days. But it's still one of the most interesting jobs. The most interesting for my job is, I learn so much about our business and to have insight into so many things that's actually really great. >> You know, one of the things I was just talking about on a Cube conversation was, you know, how data is a really important part of it and how data backup and recovery was built on old thinking around, you know, data centers failing, floods, hurricanes, electricity gets outages, but the biggest disruption in business today is security, security threats and so that's cybersecurity pressure is causing CISOs to be mindful of the best architecture the best platform. Do we have the right tools? So I want to get your thoughts. How are you thinking about that as an organization, because are you building in-house developers? Are you, how are you organizing, how are you gearing up to fight the battles that need to be fought? >> So, I am with the company, So Flex is a big manufacturing company, right. 26 billion, so we have a lot of P2P business not consumer business, which is I believe a different perspective of security versus actually like a consumer company facing, so and I'm in a security team for 15 years, so we built it up like security operations and all those kind of things we do, right. >> You're old school. >> I am old school learned everything and that, right? >> But you're lot are IOT, I mean, you're Industrial IOT. >> Oh yeah, Industrial IOT it's one of the topics but coming back to you, you're right, data is actually the center even for our business, data is getting more and more center, right. You collect data from the machine, you collect data actually for the business actually to do make more decisions, right. And it could be predictive maintenance, could be inventory management. There could be a lot of things, right. You have to think about it. So, and the funny thing is, I'm real, I'm the CISO now for 5 years, 15 years with the security team, 20 years with the company, So I rebuilt the team always like every three, four years like as a kind of rebirth of the team. We renew, we add new skills, right. And cloud is one of the things, which I think it's a fundamental change and the change is actually, it's actually on the development side. What it means with that is the security team has to move to serve the developers. And the problem with the old school was always like it's afterthought. So why is security such an issue? Because we had to do patching after we found vulnerabilities, right. And then old network is not secure you need to wrap something around it like we did firewalls. So it was always an afterthought. Now with the cloud, it's changing because you have a lot of different things to do but basically we need to enable developers to be very quick and deploy their software very quickly, so I think it's a fundamental change in the way you have to think about security. >> And yeah, that brings up the good question I would love to ask you 'cause you've given, again you're not a consumer, like Capital One with in-house, they had their own channel, they weren't hacked. Amazon, actually the firewall was misconfigured, on an SV Bucket but that's a consumer company. You have data though, you're an industrial company, got a lot of industrial IOT. Ransomware folks are targeting data. >> Yes. >> And everyone's a target. Your service area is large. But you probably lock that down in the past. So how are you thinking about all this new stuff? >> So yeah, I mean, IOT it's, I mean, IOT's a problem, as you said, the industrial right. And it's not solved yet completely, right. Because they still have to rethink a lot of the vendors providing this machinery, which you purchase for twenty five, thirty years, right. They still are old school, right, sometimes, like, the one on Windows you can't upgrade or whatever. So it's basic things they're lacking actually in terms of security. There's still, has to be a shift in this, not just in industry but in a general thinking, how you do that. Yes, I have a big environment, so we locked it down, we use a lot of innovative technologies, actually preventive measurements plus also detective measurements. And you need to create kind of mightily a concept where you actually start, okay, what is if this fails? How we test it? Okay, this fails, do we have other measurements where we can try to prevent, stop those kind of things, right. But ransom is a big one. There's other things, as you know, like hacking, I mean, like Capitol One. >> Malware's a big problem. >> The Capital One was an interesting one in my belief and that's for the cloud is configuration issues, right, which I think it comes with cloud security. It's about policy and configuration management, right. How you manage that and how you think about it, but it's not, it's was not that. >> Automation could have solve that, I mean, that's an open S3 bucket, that's trivial. It wasn't a big, technical. >> Yes and no, if you look at that it was a little bit more in detail, >> Okay. >> So it was actually, their back firewall was misconfigured, which is about security running on a back check, but the misconfiguration was actually is, as (mumbles) force request issue, which means, like, you tricked this firewall into giving you information you shouldn't give information, right. >> John: Okay, so it was a little bit more. So, it was a little bit more granular as people think it was, right. Just as 3-pocket configuration. So it was a little bit more granular, but I think that's the really difficultly comes about whichever security. It's a complex program, right. It's mainly things you have. >> But it was a configuration error? >> It was a configuration. >> It wasn't as dumb as an S3 bucket. >> No, it wasn't dumb. >> But it was a bit more sophisticated, but not that sophisticated, was it? On a scale of 1 to 10. >> It was not sophisticated, but something, it's not easy to solve. So you have to think about it, but you're right, it's still something. >> John: It's an exploit from a corner case. >> Yeah, it's still something you could have. I mean, I'm careful to say you could have avoided it, yes you could, because that's for sure, but I know it's a complex environment, right. >> It's a human, there's humans involved. >> And I don't know the details exactly, we only know that what was published, right, so it's very hard to check. >> Well, it brings up cloud security, so let me ask you, on multi-cloud, this is a multi-cloud conference. What's your definition of multi-cloud? How do you look at the multiple-clouds? >> For me, multiple-cloud is, actually it doesn't matter. We had a good keynote words, it's a bunch of servers, right. That's how I see multi-cloud. It's a bunch of servers. Could be my data centers in a public cloud data centers with different vendors, that's what a cloud is. Where I move my services should be actually independent from the public hyper on premise, whatever it is, right. That's basically how I see it. >> So it doesn't matter, it's infrastructure. >> Yeah. >> On demand, leverage it. >> Leverage it, it could be say, hey today, I spin of this test server, but you know what, today it seems to be a bit cheaper running on (mumbles) verses GBC, let's do it here. Next day, next week we might do it somewhere else, whatever you trigger, whatever what is your requirements. >> So if going to look at that resource at like that, how do you think about the cloud security then, because the configurations, compliance, how do you, how do you stay on top of that? >> So, that's an interesting thing because we have begun to prioritize but we, as you said, no consumer business, so our problem is to find the right skill set, to attract the right people to our company to do that right because this is our, we have some cloud, but it's not yet, there's a journey we are trying to do, as most of the enterprise, so we're looking into startups, manage services, We say, okay what are gaps that we have to maybe have to outsource some of the things and gaps where we need to get internal source of supply. >> What's you're advice to other CISOs out there that are in the B2B space of don't have to deal with the consumer but have to get serious, that is now becoming more industrialized on the IOT side because you guys have been, you know, been there, done that, you have a big footprint on the IOT, 'cause you have a history. But as people get more facilities and they have more virtual offices, more people working, the edge is extending. What's your advice to those CISOs who have to deal with this industrial end IOT edge? >> I think you have to, visibility is the key ingredient is first, right. If you don't know what you have, it's very hard to understand what's a risk portfolio, right. So, you need to find the right toolset, and don't believe you know what you have. It's fantastic what you see when you use the right tool what distance everything is connected. I mean, basically even, like, I found like, this coffee mug, you know. I connect it to devices, right. It's like, not like everyone, not just that they don't understand my coffee mug is connected to (laughing). >> That light bulb's got multithreaded processor. What is that doing? >> So, so there's concerns, I may, but visibility is a key ingredient you have to understand. And then you have to look into how you mitigate a risk. What is a risk about it, right. I mean, if the government goes down, I don't really care, but if my testos goes down and does shut down the production, I really care about that. So you need to understand that the risk and say, how can I mitigate the risk? >> So while I got you here, what's you final question? What's your message to suppliers out there that all want to sell you something? Want to sell you another tool, you know. Want another tool? You know, I got a platform. I got a tool. Buy from me. >> You mean, to sell 750 watches (drowned out by laughter) If you go to ISA conferences, unbelievable, right. >> I want to sell you something. You're the top dog, I promise. >> Don't send me an email. >> Don't send them an email. Are you shrinking suppliers down? Are you looking at some kind of standard API way to deal with them? >> Yes. >> Because, you know, you're probably thinking about platforming, and date of visibility's critical. >> Yes. >> What's you philosophy on how to support video suppliers? >> So usually, honestly, the most time I really go it so for in the weight of technology we built in our company is called the Strategic Partnership Program where we can get for startups, and most of the time we engage, we startups overseas, or as through other channels, right. Where you get introduced, and you review, with the proof of work concept or value, the technology, and we try to keep it like a mini product, very short time, and say, okay, let's show what you can, where your gaps are, and can we get with you guys and can we get you. But don't send me an email, don't call me because I usually not react. I have a job to do. (laughing) >> Yeah, exactly. >> So that's most of the time, whatever we sees, what comes or if, a guy said hey, I found another CISOs tell me there's great technology, you should leap into that. >> And what shows do you go to? What events do you hang out in? What are good events for you in the space, RSA, Red Hat, Black Defcon? Are there certain events you go to that you think are valuable? >> I mean, as a CISO, I go to the RSA Conference, which I should because it's actually very close to me as well, and being part, being out of San Jose, I recommend the BSides, actually. I like the BSides. >> John: The BSides are great. >> The BSides are great. I think they are real, really. And then I try to smaller circles, right. We have our personal round tables. >> BSides for folks watching is an alternative group of community, industry participants, they have kind of a B-side, an A-side, like an album. But it's such a community event. They do hacker funds and a variety of other cool things where people get together, very unstructured kind of, cool conference, in addition to bigger conferences. >> I can recommend this. >> Yeah, awesome. Fritz, thanks for coming on and sharing your insights. >> Thanks. >> Been a pleasure. The Cube coverage in New York City, we're not escaping from New York but this is the Escape Conference, the first multi-cloud conference in the industry, we'll see how it goes. If they're successful, they might be back next year. If not, they won't be. But I think multi-cloud's going to stay. What do you think? >> I am think so too, yes. >> Okay, Fritz, thanks for coming on. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE. Covering ESCAPE/19. >> Everyone, welcome to theCUBE coverage here in New York City for the ESCAPE Conference 19. This is the inaugural event for multicloud, I think it's the first industry event for, really talking about multicloud and the impact to enterprises and public cloud. My next guest is Steve Mullaney, President and CEO of Aviatrix, storied career in tech, been there done that, seen many waves of innovation. Nicira, Palo Alto Networks, and now Aviatrix. You retired for a while, welcome back! >> I did, yeah, five years, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> It's nice to have you on because I think you have a good perspective on the multicloud because you've been in the industry since the 80s. We've both been broke in at the same time. And we've seen the waves. >> Oh, yeah. >> This wave is bigger than, I think, most of the other waves combined because it brings together so many things, infrastructure, software, cloud scale, and a new modern application environment. And then you complicate everything by throwing IoT out there, edges being pushed to their boundaries, securities equations changed, all this is going on right now, all at the same time. >> No, and that's why I was basically retired for five years, and I was at Nicira, we got bought by VMware, I stayed there for a couple years, and I just said, "Okay, that's it!" I've had a good career and I'm done. And about a year ago, the world changed. And it felt like on a Tuesday morning, I noticed enterprises really, we'd been talking about cloud for 12 years. And five years ago they said, "We're coming in, we're going to do it," but they didn't really mean it. But about a year ago, all in the same day, every enterprise said, "No, now we actually mean it." And I don't know why, I don't know if it was just people retired or just five years of talking about it, they all decided, we're comin' in, and enterprises all moved together. And this wave, as you said, is bigger than, I was around in 1992, in the early 90s, in the movement from mainframe to client server. This is 10 times bigger than that. And more importantly, it's going to happen 10,000 times faster. Because (fingers tapping). What's that? I just deployed 62 data centers around the world. Because if I can leverage the greatest infrastructure built, basic infrastructure of the hyperscalers, AWS, Azure, Google, Alibaba, Oracle, you name it. It's unbelievable the velocity at which you can now start deploying. >> Steve, I think you're onto something big here, and this is why I'm here at this event and why I'm excited, that a lot of the industry thought leaders and practitioners and leaders are doing this event. Small events, inaugural, but I think it has a lot of links. Because there's a lot of tell signs that I like to look at, one is cloud. I've been covering Amazon eight years now, with theCUBE, I've known AWS since it started, and I've done many startups in its launch using AWS. But I've had many conversations with Andy Jassy, one on ones, privately, I got an exclusive coming up for re:Invent with him. I've gotten to know him. It started out, "Everyone's moving to the cloud. "Every data center's not going to exist." And then, you know-- >> Oh, maybe not, yeah, yeah. >> Maybe not, we'll do an output. So I challenged him last year, I said, "Andy, come on, dude, like you were saying like a year ago that." >> Steve: Yeah, it's all AWS or nothing. >> And he said, "John, look I'm not, "I just listen to the customers." And I interviewed him when he did the VMware deal. And he's very customer focused. And when they make these moves with outpost, and I think it's going to be a hybrid message this year at re:Invent, you know it's real. >> Steve: Oh, yeah. >> I think this validates your point, so I got to ask you, what specifically do you see the formula being for multicloud, because certainly everyone's recognized that there's a huge benefit for AWS. But from a scale standpoint, so why not use that? What's going on on the Enterprise on-premise that's making this new thing work? >> I think it all starts with architecture, like anything else. I think right now, enterprises have said, "Okay, we've burned a boat, right? "Now, we're not going to get rid of our data centers, "but in terms of our strategic investment, "we are moving into the cloud. "We are going to leverage "the infrastructure of the hyperscalers. "And whether that is just one hyperscaler, or multiple." And I have not met an enterprise who thinks there only going to be one, right, every single one of them. Now, I don't think they're moving workloads across, I don't think that. I think they see that, I'm going to use Google for AI, I'm going to use AWS because it started there. I'm going to use Azure, for Office 365, and other different things, and everything in infrastructure is always multi. It's never homogeneous, right, it's always that. So I think is going to happen, and I think what people are begging for right now, is, I want to build an architecture that gives me the optionality to be able to deliver a common set of services whether I'm on AWS or multiple clouds. And I want them to be my services and I don't want to have understand the low level abstractions and constructs of each of those clouds, because their all different. One's metric, one's U.S., one's some other weird thing. And I don't have the time, the people, or the resources to be able to do that. Give me a common set of services, that are my services, that I can deploy and abstract away the details of those public clouds. >> Yeah, it's an interesting point there, in fact, I called BS on multicloud last year when it started to kind of rear it's head, I'm like, "Come on, multicloud is bullshit." And I said that on theCUBE. And here's what I meant. Multicloud as an operating model is directionally correct, but the architecture hasn't shown where there's true multicloud. Now, the fact of the matter is, people have Amazon, people have Office and Office 365, that's technically two clouds, >> They're siloed, yeah. >> If they give us Google, that's three clouds. >> I use two or three clouds. >> So, if he have three clouds, I guess they have multiple clouds. But you bring up an interesting point, and going back as a student of the history of tech industry, multi-vendor has been a big deal. >> It is a big deal. >> And like you said, there will be a multi-vendor world, that will happen. The question is how. How do you guys see it happening? >> Well I think what's-- >> Your company is attacking this Aviatrix. >> What's interesting is, so now you think about from a customer perspective which, I do the same thing, same thing with AWS. It's always outside in. Okay, I'm thinking as a enterprise IT person. I'm making the move. Do you believe that your basic infrastructure will lever the hyperscalers, or will you build an on-prem? Everyone says, "I believe that's the way I'm going to go." Great, how do I do that? So, I'm a IT architect, who do I go to to help me? Do I go to CISCO? No. The most shocking thing for me, of the six months I've been at Aviatrix, is that word's never used. It's like it was DEC or IBM in the conversation, when you were talking about client-server, no, why would you? CISCO, Juniper, Arista, any of the networking people, not even in the conversation. VMware, not really in the conversation. So, I don't have any incumbent vendor that I can go to that I used to go to. >> Why aren't they in the conversation? 'Cause of the commodity, they've been extracted away? >> I think it's just because it's the innovation of dilemma. Right, once you're selling a lot of stuff into on-prem, to then go and say, I mean you look at Palo Alto Networks, they're trying to make that transition. Acquiring a bunch of companies, VMware acquiring a bunch of companies. Why are they doing that? Because they know, I got to get off on-prem, everything's going in the cloud. >> So it's a legacy. >> It's a legacy thing, and I think what happens is, there is only one reason, and one reason only, an enterprise customer is not using Aviatrix. 'Cause they never heard of us. That's why, that's the only reason. Once they hear about what they're doing, my God. >> Well, give the plug, talk about the company, what do you guys do-- >> So we deliver, I mean it sounds like I made it up for this conference, but actually this conference was perfect for this. It's networking and security services for the multicloud enterprise. And we're building an architecture, that people can deploy, that will give them this common architecture across all the different clouds. So whether you're just using one cloud or multiple, it doesn't matter, it's the same set of security and networking services. And we do that by embracing and extending the basic constructs that AWS, Google, Azure, and Oracle, and all the other clouds will give you, and to deliver that real enterprise class. Because the other thing we've found is, everyone thinks that the cloud gives you everything and anything you will ever need from networking and security. Let's say AWS, they're going to do everything I need. What the enterprises are figuring out, is once they stop going in, what they realize is, it's created for the low-level common basic constructs. And the enterprise starts at, well, I need these BGP feature because guess what, the data center is not going away. And I need more than a hundred route limitations, and I need, all of a sudden there's fifty different limitations AWS will give me. Well, they didn't talk about that! Well, of course they're not going to talk about that. They are just going to go check, check, check, we solve all your problems. As enterprises now move in, with mission critical applications, they're realizing, I need the same level of networking and security services that I had on-prem. I can't get that with the native constructs. So where do I go? That's what we do, so we fill in, we embrace what we can of those constructs, we fill in holes where there are fill in holes. And then we give you the mechanism to be able to orchestrate that across the global network. >> So you operationalize the hyperscale clouds for enterprise, >> Yes. >> that's basically what you do. >> Steve: Exactly, for the enterprise. >> Yeah, exactly. >> On the level that they need. >> So you get the benefits of the cloud, but all those nuances under the cover details like networking and other features you abstract that away and provide an operating model for enterprise compliments. >> And the beautiful thing about it is the velocity, at which we can, we're over the top, effectively over the top. We're integrated into the Cloud Suite, understand what cloud native, we understand all the constructs of accounts, and all the things we need to do. But what we expose to the customer, to the enterprise, is a set of over-the-top services that just work. >> Okay Steve, so I got to ask you, since we are at The Multi-Cloud Conference. What is multicloud, I mean how do you define it, you laid out a pretty compelling architecture of what needs are, levers in the cloud, and on-prem is what Aviatrix does. But what is the definition, how should people understand what is multicloud? >> I think for us, for networking and security in that base, so we're basic infrastructure. We get out there first, right? So, if you're going to build a city, you don't start putting people there first the first thing, if you do it right, is you get sewers, you get electricity, gas, roads, all that. Networking and security, infrastructure, is basic infrastructure goes out first. And you want to create an architecture that's going to live with you for twenty years. You don't want to have to rip up the roads and put the sewers in later. And that architecture needs to be multicloud because, even though you think maybe, most of our customers are 90% AWS right now. But every single one of them say, "But I'm moving to Azure, I'm moving to Google, "I've got retail customers that won't allow me "to put my infrastructure on AWS." Or, "I have machine learning, AI type apps on Google." They all say that same thing. But what they all then say to us, is, "You're going to be the mechanism "upon which I'm going to be able to deploy "this common set of services." So they don't need to know that. >> All right, give an example of a customer you guys have, name a name, we had a customer on stage here-- >> Steve: So, Jefferies. >> John: They did this for a use case. >> Yeah so, Jefferies. Financial Services Institution, lots of requirements, Mark Leon Soon is going to be on stage with me tomorrow. We started working with them about nine months ago. Exactly the same thing, they said, "Okay, you know what? "We need to start moving to the cloud, "we've got to start leveraging the cloud. "But, it's too complicated, right? "Even AWS, says 'Go Build.' "I don't want to go build, I want to consume services. "But they don't have all the service that I needed, "they're too low a level. "They're very high function, high enterprise requirements." So they start using us to orchestrate things, to provide transit networking, to provide egress filtering out to the Internet, we have high performance encryption, AWS will only offer it one gig. We can offer it to 10, 20, 30, 40 gig. So they start deploying, they start realizing all the things we do. Then they go and say, "I want to bring my Palo Alto Networks firewall "into the cloud." When you start looking at that, 'cause then guess what? All my policies, I want the same level that I have on-prem when I'm in the cloud. If I go try to bring in my VM series into AWS the construct that AWS give you, they cause you limitations in performance, in visibility, It's integration hassles, there's performance, sustainability, visibility issues, they force you to use SNAT. And there's all these issues, and they go, "Oh my God, this is a pain in the ass." We solved all that for them. We basically cloudify the VM series for them, so all those limitations go away. So that's just another use case that they use. Now they start looking, and they say, "Okay, now I'm going to start extending into other clouds and I want to use you as the common frame point, the common pane of glass. >> Well Steve, good luck in your venture, you're back in the saddle again. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Another ride here, you feel good about it? >> This is going to be the best, the biggest that I've been, and I was at Palo Alto Networks and VMware Nicira. And this one's going to be bigger than both of those. >> What's your vision for where this is going to be for you, where do you see the company in a few years, what are some of the outcomes you expect to happen? >> Our opportunity, and I look at it as, someone's going to take this opportunity, and the reason I came back is, why not us, someone's going to take it. And the opportunity, honestly, is to become, effectively, what Cisco was in the early 90's. To define the architecture, the networking and the security infrastructure architecture for enterprise customers. They are begging for that right now, that's our opportunity. >> Cloud Interoperability. >> Interoperability, yeah. And so there's so many things that we need to go and do. When you look at also the thing that people are going to say, the operations. So many people think, I want it the same as it was on-prem. I think with the cloud, and across multicloud you can do it right with us, and actually better. Because the visibility that you get is more, than what you get on-prem. >> Well, and the thing that's interesting that's different about this new world that we're talking about is that there is going to be constant improvements in new things which means that the functionality game is going to increase, which means the agility is even more important because the apps are going to have more things to do. >> Yeah. I mean in the end, why do you want to go to cloud? I want to go to cloud 'cause I want it to be self-service and I want agility. I want my developers, I want everybody to be able to do things quicker because all of the sudden they say, "Let's go roll this out", and you want to be able to do it. >> Well, good luck on the new venture, Aviatrix, check 'em out, hot multicloud startup, growing, how many people do you have, put the plug in, >> 100. >> what are you guys looking for, are you hiring, give me a quick plug. >> We just hired a new VP at World Wide Sales, James Winebrenner, who was Viptela CEO, VP Sales in Cisco, hiring a tremendous amount of sales guys right now, we're closing on a $40 million Series C round next week, and we're hiring a lot of people. >> Good luck, we'll be following you Steve, thanks for coming on and sharing your insights. Again, multicloud, this is a shift that's happening, multicloud is just another word for multi-vendor, in a new modern era, this is what it has been in the technology industry, but a whole new world. This is theCUBE coverage here in New York City, ESCAPE/19, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE, covering Escape/19. (upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome back to theCUBE coverage here in New York City for the inaugural multicloud event called Escape/19. This is a unique event where industry leaders are coming together to discuss and have conversations around what is multicloud? What does it even mean? How it will be laid out. It's really a foundational set of conversations and talks around it. Our next guest is Spoons, known as Spoons. That's not his real name (laughs), that's his nickname. He's a co-founder and CTO of LightStep, a CUBE alumni of the past. I've interviewed them at KubeCon. Spoons, thanks for coming on. >> Pleasure to be here. >> So first of all, your company really has a lot of tech jobs, we've interviewed your partner Ben before on theCUBE. So much is going on in microservices, you can't keep it straight these days. So, take a minute to give an update on what's going on with LightStep real quick, and why you're here. >> Yeah, I think what we're really trying to see is it's not just microservices, it's different cloud vendors, different third-party vendors that are really adding to the complexity. And that complexity really comes in the form of depth. I think people that are adopting microservices really feel it immediately. But for everyone else it's a bit of a boiling frog situation, it comes on slowly. And I think where LightStep fits in, is offering a simple solution for observing those systems, for understanding what's happening. >> So, multicloud, a conversation which I've called out on theCUBE as bullshit in the past because, we have people kind of spinning it up and hyping it up. I mean I recognize that people have multiple clouds, but there's no multiclouding going on. >> Yeah. >> Per se, but-- >> Yeah, we see a little bit with our customers. It's something where I think they think about it as a way to mitigate risks, it's a way for them to manage costs as well, so. Well, Multi-Vendor, I'm old enough to remember back in the '80s and '90s, where you didn't want just IBM, or you didn't want just DEC, you wanted multiple vendors in there because more inter genius is better. Better IT. So, now we're seeing that with cloud, this is not B.S., this is real. So, this is where I see multicloud being a foundational. How do you see the architecture of enterprises whether small, medium, growing, either born in the cloud, cloud negative, or hybrid IT, hybrid dev, building their own stacks. How should they be thinking about architecting for multicloud? >> Yeah so I think that's one of the choices they have to make. And a lot of what I think they're trying to do is really allow teams to work more independently. So, that might be that they can make their own choices about a cloud, about vendors. It might be that they make their own choices about languages, frameworks, things like that. As they do that they're building up this depth and what that means is that there's a heterogeneity to that system. And really the problem there is that you've got the responsibility for the whole stack. You've got responsibility for everything from your service all the way down, those will all impact your performance. You only got control over your service itself. And so, managing that tension is really where the pain comes in for a lot of developers. >> You know, I got to ask you a question. You're multiple degrees in computer science, entrepreneur, you're in the business, it's certainly a very rapid wave, it's really strong, and more waves are coming, bigger waves. Observability, network management becomes observability, configuration management becomes automation. RPA is the hottest trend, automating everything. So, a lot of action going on with cloud scale, enterprises are trying to vector in and figure that out. Observability has become such a hot area. And we kind of missed it, I mean, we covered it, but we, I missed that whole break out. Whoa, what is this? A whole new category. What's going on? >> I think a lot of people miss it. I think it's easy to think about the orchestration about the automation as the most important thing 'cause that's sort of in the critical path. You have to have that to keep going. And it's easy to kind of think that your monitoring tools from you know, 10, 20 years ago are still working. And I think, what we realized while we were at Google and what we brought to LightStep is that they're not working anymore, that you've really got to re-think, and you've got to put in context that allows you to see that whole stack and not just think about individual machines, individual processes, but really understand it from the user's point of view, from your customer's point of view. >> And I mean you start out you see tracing as a feature, but observability is now almost its own practice. How should we think about holistically? How should people think holistically about observability from a technical standpoint? >> Yeah so really of course you're going to need some logging, you're going to need metrics, but you really need those things to be put in context. You need to understand how they're affecting individual users, individual or segmented users, and so tracing is really the backbone of that context. It allows you to understand how a particular transaction passes through that system. If you don't have that, you're just going to get buried in this sea of data whether that's logs or metrics or whatever. Tracing is really the thing that allows you to understand what's important to filter, to aggregate, and to really hone in on what can-- >> So that rabbit hole, or that net, or the drowning in that you said, I forget how you said it, it was nice, is essentially a rabbit hole, you can almost get stuck down there. >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> So you're getting much more real-time, and you also said, you know, the contextual. So when I think of contextual I'm thinking about I have to be integrated to the app and/or have access to data. >> Yeah. So how does that work? >> Yeah so, really data comes from a lot of different sources and you need to get a way to integrate those things that can come from machine layer, from the infrastructure layer, but from the application itself as well. We've partnered with some others to put together OpenTelemetry, which is an open standard for getting the data out of the application. This comes on the heels of open tracing and a couple of other things, but that's really an open standard that allows application developers, allows framework developers to really open that spigot and get the data out of the application. >> Just to get your personal thoughts on the industry. I have a lot of conversations with folks around, we're the control plane for data. I mean, can there ever be a control plane? Is Kubernetes going to be that? I guess abstraction, where everyone kind of has their own little land grab of control plane? 'Cause data horizontal scalability makes sense. >> Yeah there's a lot of different kinds of data and not all data is equally valuable. So the way that you think about data that's driving your revenue, that's one thing, and the way that you're thinking about debugging your application, that's another thing. I think you probably need more than one tool to handle that. It's just not going to be cost-effective for you. >> It's all in the level of context right there. >> Daniel: Exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah. >> So thinking about contextual and having integration points is probably a good starting point for someone who's kind of thinking about re-assembling for multicloud. >> Yep, yep. >> All right so what do you think about this conference, multicloud first inaugural, kind of true multicloud conference, about multicloud only? >> Yeah a lot of great people here, it's exciting. >> Thanks for coming, I appreciate you Spoon. Any updates, give a plug for LightStep. Take a quick second to explain what you guys are looking for, what you do, and give an update. >> Yeah so LightStep, simple observability for Deep Systems. Deep Systems come about through things like microservices, but we have a lot of customers that are still working on a monolith or just stepping away from monolithic architecture and really observability means not just logs, not just metrics, but really providing that context through things like tracing, that allow you to release faster, get those features out there, and at the same time reduce mean time resolution, reduce mean-time-to-innocence, right? Really making sure that your teams are able to understand who's at fault and who can fix the problems that you're seeing in production. >> And you guys recruiting, looking for people? >> Always recruiting on the engineering side, design, product, go to market, all of those things. >> Everyone's hiring, it's hard to get people these days. >> It is, it is. >> Lot of open jobs out there. >> Thanks for coming on and sharing your insights. See you around the neighborhood in Silicon Valley. We'll see you at KubeCon. >> Great, thanks, thanks for having me. >> It's CUBE coverage here. I'm John Furrier, we're in New York City for the first inaugural conference, Escape/19. This is the first industry gathering where the leaders of people who are making things happen are having conversations and talks around what is multicloud and laying down that foundation and add room for more solutions. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)