>> [Disembodied Voice] From New York, it's the cube. Covering escape 19. >> Welcome back to the Cube's coverage here in New York City for the inaugural multi-cloud conference called Escape 2019. This is a conference dedicated, first conference dedicated to conversations and content and people around the trend of multi-cloud, which I've been critical of, I've called BS in the past. But it is multi-vendor it's developing and the architecture for true multi-cloud is on the horizon. Where well, we will be relevant. Our next guest is Daniel Wall, senior Distinguished Engineer at Red Hat, working on a lot of the technology around what Kubernetes and containers is create a lot of buzz around and that is the abstraction layer around working across clouds. Daniel, welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you for having me. >> I'm sure I butchered what you do, but I know you make a lot of tools. You make containers work. Talk about your role at Red Hat real quick. >> So my role at Red Hat is I am the technical lead of container technology, everything basically underneath Kubernetes main projects over the last few years is to look at what Docker did and then split them into individual tasks. I believe that Docker should be broken into four different main tasks move and container images around playing with containers, building container images, and running containers in production. And then we can run different security realms around each one of them. So we have tools to do that a Scopio, Podman build, and CRI-O is the one we use for Kubernetes. >> And how's it going? Good? >> It's going great. Yeah, we're getting great up. A lot of community support. A lot of people are really excited about some of the security features for so you can run full containers where you traditionally would do a darker you can run a totally non routes and much more secure. >> Well, I'm really interested in your talk you're giving here because the folks that follow The Cube know some of my tirades I've been on the past. I've been saying for a long time that there's been a very non-selection of clouds outside the big three, >> Right. >> And you had a power law that has, know who the big guys and a long tail of people creating their own little niche services. But income, the essentials and the global size and channel part is people using cloud. We have a video cloud, we're building more and more clouds for our media business. This, I was talking about the rise of these new clouds right?. >> Right. >> You're actually put some structure around this around, You're talking about Walmart clouds and niche clouds. Could you explain so this is really important. I want you to take some time to explain that. >> Okay, so my talk today I call it the Walmart clouds, although the analogy is when Walmart first started showing up in the United States and different areas, all of the department stores basically went out of business because Walmart was able to out-commoditize everything in the universe. And so, all these major vendors, district department stores went out of business. The one thing that didn't go out of business was sort of like specialty stores. So, I always kid around and say my wife has me every weekend sitting out front of these specialty stores that she loves to stop shop at. So if I look at the way the clouds have happened is basically most people say there's three major clouds, although I think they ignore one. So you look at Amazon, you have Google and you have Microsoft Azure, although I think Alibaba is going to become important in the future. And I call those the Walmart clouds, because basically, their whole goal is to commoditize and get rid of all the other, >> And scale up and provide more and more departments more services, >> But basically it they will always be rushing to get to the cheapest price. But there were a bunch of other cloud vendors out of the specialty cloud vendors like you talking about the Cube one, you this might be the best one to do in video. So I might want to put part of my workload in the Microsoft cloud or the Amazon cloud to get the cheapest price but I want to run certain certain workloads inside the U.S. We look at another example that is Nvidia right? and there's the Nvidia cloud and they might put the best GPUs in there. And you might want to do your machine learning your AI technologies might want to go in there because they might work better. IBM, who obviously bought Red Hat, but but IBM, you look at what they're doing in their cloud, they can have power series, they can have, mainframe workload z series. They might even have, some of their future, super duper computers type things in it. And then you have Oracle and Oracle would have database, they're probably going to do databases, they've massive database technologies inside of their cloud. So when you really >> Well, they think they're one of the big clouds. But they're not. >> They do. >> But their specialty Database Cloud. >> Basically, I believe that they are. I believe IBM, I think all of them are niche, especially clouds. But the bottom line is you need an API to move between these clouds so you can put workloads in different instances. And I believe that the Walmart clouds the the AWS and Microsoft and Google, their whole goal is to get you into their cloud. They might talk a little bit about on prem cloud and supporting your data centers. But their real goal is to get you off your data centers into their cloud, so they can start making money. They won't have no interest in supporting these, sort of the specialty cloud vendors. But if you look at open shift, which Kubernetes, from Red Hat, our goal is to basically make moving your cloud instances around and keep commodity and stability and move to clouds around. >> Let's take it through a working example. So there's couples and use cases that I see happening, I want to get your reaction. One is our cloud. We're (mutters intelligibly) which we do have. It's coming out. It's on Amazon. So we were small, self funded, company growing having fun. We're building on Amazon. We don't do any work in Azure our solutions on Amazon. Another use case might be a vendor that says hey I have proprietary software, I'm going to stand up my own cloud infrastructure and do all that and build it from the ground up. Is there a difference between the two? Because one is co-locating essentially on Amazon. leveraging the cheap commodity, but building differentiated niche on top of it, versus the standing up a full cloud? >> Well, what I would argue, first of all is is I would want you are your cloud, the one that you're saying is in say, Amazon, it what is the chance of you guys basically getting an offer from Azure to a nickel less per hour. >> Pretty high!(laughs amusingly) >> To be able to move your cloud over, >> It might be high. >> And the problem I would see is if your cloud inside of Amazon cloud starts to take advantage of Amazon's features, then all of a sudden it gets harder and harder for you. the cost of moving off is going to get harder and harder. If you use open source solutions, pure open source and not tied to individual cloud vendors. Then it would become much easier for you to move around. So you could take advantage of, commodity, right? And that you mean, another analogy I use with the big cloud vendors is Hansel and Gretel right. They all want you to come on in and come on in have some of our candy, have some our candy. And next thing you know, you're inside the cage. And, you know, but if you stick to open source, right, this is in a lot of ways the major cloud vendors is a major threat to open source, and that they're trying to lock everybody in right there. We lost it. >> Okay so what's the path? So I told it, by the way, I'm getting what your saying. So I say great I'll take advantage of the cheap I as the infrastructure service layer. But then what an open source toy usually open shift, I still got to build my app, I got to still host it. >> Right. So you build you build your app on top of it. So let me define what open shift is. And so open shift is basically Red Hat's enterprise version of Kubernetes. So if you look at Kubernetes, Kubernetes in some ways is just a higher level distribution of software. So when when Red Hats got into Linux business, there were lots and lots of Linux distributions. And what Red Hat did is they picked a whole kernel and a whole bunch of packages and joined them together and created a distribution that everybody could agree on and build on. So with open shift we're doing is we're taking Kubernetes, but there's a whole bunch of CNCF projects, and we're joining them all together and then testing them and making enterprise so that ready. But really Kubernetes is the key factor here in that if you build everything Kubernetes you CNCF open source projects, for your, save your storage, put it on staff, so Gloucester, one of the network based file systems in the open source world, instead of diving directly into Amazon, now you have the flexibility to be able to get out of the- >> So here's an Architectural question. So I got to ask you as multi-cloud conversation starts to heat up, and by the way, I think people have multiple clouds. It's just not multi-clouding. Right, right, right. Yeah, but it's coming. So architecturally what do someone have to think about architecturally for multi cloud? What's in the mind of the technical architect out there? >> What's on them? What are they should be thinking about from an architecture because you don't want to forclose the future. But I also want to get the best what I can get today from the clouds. >> I mean, I keep keep on hammering on it, but stick to the open source projects to do this as the CNCF projects just to allow you flexibility. A lot of it, the real problem with a lot of this technology right now is it's developing so fast. I mean, I think we have a Kubernetes version every two weeks, it seems at least in my team and see it feels like it. >> So you think Red Hat's of good vendor for the supplier for that person. >> Obviously >> Yeah you know some stuff is hard to deal with so it (mutters) look I'm so busy, these guys, I'm trying to get the transformation going. I don't have time to keep track of what's going on in CNCF. >> Yeah, well, we're a co worker of mine talks about your Red Hat and open shift is a plumbing tool or an electric we're building the foundation of your house and we put the electrical systems and the plumbing empties into your house, but we still need applications to run so we need you you need a toast or you need a toilet, you need a sink. And the applications and one of the one of the differences between Red hat and sort of the cloud vendors is we try not to get into the product, the lab and product business. So we want to support open source projects and other products running in our environment. If you compare that to running inside a cloud, you know if you become incredibly successful inside of Amazon, your video cloud business wants to prevent Amazon to say, oh, we'll just do video will steal everything they're doing and all a sudden we'll do the video inside of Amazon and then put your your cloud out of business. And, your only option then is now you're competing Amazon in Amazon against Amazon. How do you get out of Amazon >> That's called 3D chess.I think. Or maybe 4D chess. >> So if you you know My point being if you have an opportunity to get out and compete against Amazon say on Microsoft compete on your local compete on one of the niche clouds So any vendor that basically ties totally to Amazon, >> This is this is absolutely why I'm here because I believe multi-vendor, that was the buzzword in the 80s and 90s. Is everyone wants to they want to homogeneous they want a heterogeneous network. So multi-vendor will be around multi-cloud has to survive, it will survive. But right now we are in the foundational stages. The second interview, he has talked about plumbing and streets, and that's what we're at. So I guess the final question for you is, as we're setting the foundational infrastructure for multi-cloud, what's the big takeaway that you see that you could share? You mentioned get involved in open source what specifically architecturally should should folks think about in terms of foundational. >> I think, look at what the CNCF that cloud cloud native foundation is doing for open source projects, depends on what level you want to come in. And the bottom line is, built on top of Kubernetes use open standards to do it. Don't fall for the Hansel and Gretel effect of eating the candy because you will find yourself in a cage. >> Well, multi cloud is arrived and it's being thought through by industry leaders from entrepreneurs. We just had the former CEO of Sierra on, now running AVA trace, industry veteran, lot of tech chops in here, laying down the lines, if you will. A lot of good stuff Kubernetes is a key part of the containers. >> Okay, huge part of it. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having me. >> And thanks for sharing the insights here on The Cube. We're in New York City for the inaugural multi-cloud conference Escape 19. I'm John Furrier back with more after this short break (pulsating music) (pulsating music)