live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View California it's the queue covering Devon that create 2018 brought to you by Cisco okay welcome back everyone we're live here in Silicon Valley in Mountain View California it's keeps coverage dev net create here I'm John Firth mykos Lauren Cooney and next is Louie Louis froyo Technical Evangelist an IBM good to see you again thank you for having me Lauren ketchup IBM love to think shirt welcome back thank you thank you it's great here so what's going on for you here I am partnering with Cisco what's let's get what's going on well here are we're here to help you know sort of promote the idea around IOT analytics at the edge right with the idea of demonstrating a lot of the IBM products you know I did a workshop today and you know a lot of hands-on mechanical stuff but also leveraging some of the IOT technology offered by IBM so IBM cloud cloud analytics mainly is what you're doing that's right we've chat in the past going back big day two days Anup days when it was you know fashionable now it's kind of have a that's more data leaks nothing let's do the central part of the conversation ai is obviously Mark Zuckerberg and presenting in front of or testifying in front of the Senate's right it's all around AI in analytics Asli dated the data rules change but year conversation with Cisco is IOT yeah because a lot of the network stuff edge of the network these are paradigms that our network inherently perfect for Cisco that's right IBM does a lot of IOT job do a lot a blockchain work as well yeah this is all serving enterprise so what's the big theme real relevant theme for enterprises when it comes to things like how do I use flop chain or how do I use IOT how do I incorporate that tech into my enterprise well I think the first the first barrier is to just understand the technology and the limitations of that technology so you mentioned blockchain you know I'm out quite a bit in the field talking to people talking to partners IBM partners customers customers and there's this confusion around what's a blockchain is what blockchain is all about and the same with big data back in the day you mentioned you know we met up with some conferences back then I think they need to understand what the technologies do what they serve what purposes they serve so blockchain is fairly new right there's a lot of confusion there was the same with big data back and a very confusing IOT you know when we go out as a Technical Evangelist my team we go out and we talk to people there's an appetite to learn more to understand what this IOT thing is and how can they use it how did how can it help us make more money what are they drilling down on our where or better yet what are you evangelizing in what's what are they receptive to what's what's working for them what are they resonates with the customers or potential customers that you guys talk to first and foremost the fact that you know when we go out we have live sessions and we train we give them hands-on right out of the gate within you know 20 minutes they have a bot checkoff built within an hour we build a blockchain right with it with and they do it they see it they experience it and that excites them and then along the way we also we try to educate them on you know why this is important this is how it can be used you know IOT is you know this confusion around that - you know how can i leverage this but I've also talked to customers where they're doing some cool stuff with the edge and I think that leads to my next question actually was which is what use cases do you see what our customers talking about you know I think if you have people building block chains and things along those lines that's great but what are they going to apply it - yeah so there's a perfect example working with a customer and they they're businesses around drones you know UAVs to go out and look for anomalies on pipelines oil pipelines so they have a great technology a drone you know we can go 100 kilometers an hour they can go 100 kilometers in distance but what they need they really need to be able to look for things that shouldn't be there so computer vision you know machine learning deep learning and so we're working with them now to help them get the technology just right to live on the drone to be able to do image recognition highly with high accuracy in real-time so the machine learning in the IOT working out on the edge so is that Watson machine learning no no because it has to happen no we could do or watching today right the problem is you have to have that long-haul communication with the cloud now this needs to happen on the drone in real time okay so we're working with them to figure out you know how we can achieve that and there's some things coming out of IBM and in their future that'll make that a bit easier great and I think that that's an exciting awesome use case to be able to do computer vision on the fly and you know using these neural networks to make decisions I mean the drone example is real life and it's one of those things where we've seen many presentations and examples one of them I loves kind of I'm a wireless geek but I love the towers and I like to see how those they send your owns up there to look at the equipment and then look for repair so it's all automated it's all perfectly executed in the airspace if you will not name space but it goes in there you know power lines you know drones are being used to clear that's right debris and power line all kinds of use cases I think Accenture once told us there was a use case where on car accidents are scenes where they got to take the road and Thrones come in to a full representation and visual and reduces the that's right it's a time to survey the scene along you know one that's read you think about the wind farms these huge wind farms and they have to do inspections use some of these fields you see they're just 500 you know turbines out there and so you need to get out there and the drones are perfect they can look at the blades and you know because they have the high-speed cameras and those blades return and they can still look for defects and fractures and in predict you know using analytics again out there you know predictive maintenance to say hey you know there's something going on here you help us with the cube join me we did cube drone to go out and cover all of our events for us absolutely I'd love to work interviews I'd love to work with you guys that would be null series now just kidding aside is there a profile that you see with customers that resonates well in terms of why are some people more successful now on the cutting edge thing is they got the foresight they got the budget at IT what what's the perfect configuration what makes the customers or a tune to knocking down these low hanging fruit scenarios so I'm gonna say something that's obvious and I'm sure you see it all the time but it's just the risk risk-averse you know you need to put yourself out there you need to be you know a next-gen thinker and that's how we you know within my team when we think about going out and finding these next-gen partners you know born in the cloud you know they're thinking they're thinking beyond what's the from you so the people that are doing these this cool work there either you know a really hardcore tech you know like the drone example or these young entrepreneurs who really don't have much to lose and they have these great ideas you know certainly around blockchain I've heard some some cool ideas around blockchain what people want to do with it and so they you know they're small they're agile they have a vision and they'll take the chance you know the theme here that's interesting and Laura and I were talking about earlier is that the co-creation model is really where the ideas are going to come from so the old model was you pixton technology selection and you put it to work and you that should appreciate or amortize it over whatever period financially to pay back period all that nonsense now to a world where all the ideas are coming from the teams themselves yeah so the the suppliers the vendors don't pitch here's our IOT solution place our IOT fabric is invest Indies are the new approaches the new posture for vendors where these developers who are creating all the action yeah it certainly you know you see that look yeah yeah yeah that's how just you know the workshop we did here today you know if someone wants to kick the tires and wants to learn you know you're not gonna go to proprietary vendor equipments like the big data back in the day you know everyone started with the dupe that was the center of it right open so yeah and it's the same here so there's a lot of Technology open source free technology for people to go out and do prototypes and figure out what they need to do and that's what we're seeing people you know certainly when we go out and do our live events with IBM hands on immediately you know you're doing IOT solutions right so you can take it away and you can go back and then now you can apply it and build on it so you know it's going back to just education and people understanding what these technologies are how to use them and and how to get started you know the proverbial HelloWorld program is there a big event coming up for IBM you got you're gonna be going towards or what's your schedule look like you're on the road a lot what are the big things you got going on well we just had think out in Vegas are you guys were there I was there and we had IBM index not too long before that so that's sort of like the developer event like this for us on a team Aman we have schedules throughout the year to go through various cities there are 15 of us all around the country you know hosting meetups and you know initiating meetups getting partner events co-hosting with developers or cxos or oh so we we target the development team and we target the you know the decision maker around making purchases right so they need to be a part of that story you know we can easily win over the developers with our technology the hard part is winning over the people that signed the check so yeah it's exciting buddy thanks for stopping by great to see you yeah thank you very much your job analytics the heart of the IOT Louis froley Oh Technical Evangelist at IBM you know in the days where all the action is obviously the date as the center you got AI blockchain that's IBM's vision love does love the new love the new messaging from IBM right money we have two definite create here in Silicon Valley more live coverage after this short break

live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View California it's the cube covering Devon that create 2018 brought to you by Cisco hey welcome back everyone live here at dev net create Cisco's event here at this Museum in Mountain View California art a Silicon Valley I'm here with Laura Cooney we here for two days wall-to-wall coverage breaking down Cisco's move into the DevOps Wow developer world separate from the dev net community which is the Cisco Developer Program and we've been breaking down Lauren great to have you this past two days so we talked to a lot of the Cisco folks a lot of the practitioners let's analyze it let's discuss kind of what's going on first of all Cisco creates a new group almost a year ago next month called dev net create to get out of the Cisco bubble and go out into the cloud world and see if they can't connect the cloud ecosystem cloud native kubernetes all the micro services goodness is going on the application side on infrastructures code and bring that with the Cisco network engineering community who are plumbers network plumbers their network engineers they deal with provisioning gear routes well I think it's interesting because you have this CCIE number that has been decreasing over the past couple of years and that's that's not because the network is less important it's actually because new skill sets are emerging and folks need to take on these new skills to learn and to really flourish in their careers so I think what definite is doing is just tremendous in terms of enabling developers to move up stack to look at things like kubernetes to look at things like you know cloud native to look at new applications you can build new things that you can extend to API integration into you know new types of applications you know we had folks here that we're learning to code in Python for the first time and I think that's awesome I think that's great and the timing is perfect I mean I got to give credit to Susie we and her team at Cisco they have they doing they're doing all the right things I think the way they're handling this is they're not overly aggressive they're not arrogant they're humble they're learning they're listening and they're doing all the right things are bringing a lot to the table from the Cisco table to this community and they've got you know this is very cool but the timing is critical if they tried to do this four years ago how hard would have it been you know you've been there okay I mean they pull this off four years ago I think there was the the goal was always there four years ago but I think the timing was you know you you have to kind of put the the mission in order and get things up and running first you can't just you don't launch a community you build one and I think we you know Cisco really needed to build that core community first and that was that was super credit but even four years ago let's just go back and rewind the clock we was cloud then so it was still the purest DevOps culture it was certainly hard-charging was definitely flying but still even like a lot of the on-premise enterprise folks we're like still kind of poopoo in the cloud you even saw it four years ago Oracle just made their move a couple years ago to the cloud and they're still trying to catch up so you know these legacy vendors and Cisco is one they've pivoted nicely Cisco into this because now the timings there as kubernetes there's enough code to get glued in plugged in with the stack so I think timing has also been a tailwind timing was critical I mean back then we were talking about software-defined networking and you know new services that you could deliver to the cloud and new ways and then DevOps came in is like really the glory child right saying like this DevOps was gonna solve world hunger and and what she came what it came down to basically is you know it is a critical part but there are certain piece parts that needed to come together especially in the open source world to make these things happen I mean to me if I had to like point out I'm just riffing here but you know to me the seminal moment for a cloud and you know agile was happening that's a key driver but it was the fact that was horizontally scalable tech unstructured data the roles of databases software that was becoming this new lightweight glue layer control planes or moving up and down the stack so there wasn't one thing combination of these awesome things were happening that made people go whoa holy-holy we could do more if we think about scale differently skill differently and really how do you bring this you know and this is where you get to edge computing it's how do you actually bring these to the masses how do you go where the people are how do you store data where people are how do you extend security in new ways I mean that's that's gonna be super critical I think the other thing that's also pretty evident is that when you start having new entrants into a market start eating some of your breakfasts then they start eating some of your lunch then you go wait a minute if I don't do something my dinner is gonna be eaten I mean you starting to see people see their business at risk yeah this is a huge thing that that lights up to see XO the CEO the CEO o CDO CIO now it's like okay we got to make a move definitely I think that's that's the way that it has to be and in terms of Cisco I want to get your thoughts because I've always been talking about this and I'm a big Cisco fan I know a lot of people who work there been a big admirer of the company from day one and what they did in the internet generation they did bought a lot of cubbies which create a little bit of a mash mash but that's nothing I issue they really ran the networks what a great culture however we're now seeing applications driving a lot of value and the network needs to be programmable and the challenge that cisco has always been how do we will if the stack as a company and all the little scuttle butts and conversations and parties have been to hallway conversations francisco executives employees is that's been the internal debate how does cisco should cisco move up the stack and if so how so it's been kind of this internal thing good timing now to start moving up the stack because the automations here I think it was great timing four years ago to move up the stack to be honest I think that there were efforts then I know that I was engaged in some to do that rather quickly you know those turned into things that you know went one way or the other I think that there are the right people in the right places at Cisco now to make that actually happen I think you know we're a little early on that I think Suzy Zephyr is just tremendous in terms of driving the users up stack to have them learn these new skills and as they learn these new skills they're learning it on Cisco and that's gonna be really critical that's gonna have the pull power yeah I think this is got a chance a real great chance to and it's not a far reaching of a accomplishment either for them to do this is they can now actually build a developer program now because before they didn't have enough software but what Suzy's doing if I'm Chuck Roberts CEO of Cisco I'm doubling down and what's going on with definite definite create and I can take that def net component and almost kind of expand it out because Cisco has a developer option you look at what they're doing on the collaborative software side the stuff with video they have a total core confidence in video I mean they were early on so many things but now with I got WebEx they're still and so for video conferencing but still beyond that IOT is a video application well huge opportunity in these these communities that pop up and right now you don't have a product if you don't have a supporting community and so salutely be doubling down on this they need to double down on that they probably need to invest more in it than they are now I see it as absolutely critical as they move forward because you know Cisco wants to be one or two in the market for all their products all their solutions to have that they need to have the supporting community dude yeah we did two days here and you know and in terms of events it's not the big glam event it's really a early stage the only the second event within the it hasn't even been 12 months since the first dev net create what I'm impressed by what I love about the cube is we when you get at these early moments when you see it magic happening you get into the communities and you realize wow this is a team that could pull it off and I think Cisco's a company at Cisco live in Barcelona you know it really became apparent to me that Cisco's really pulling in the right direction on a couple things I feel that the big company thing that gotta kind of clean that up a bit just make it more nimble but they got their eye on the prize on video they could really crush the IOT opportunity and the leverage of the network is a huge asset and if they could make that programmable with an open source community behind it man this could be a whole nother Cisco almost bring back that look at the glory days I fully agree Lauren what are you up to these days I mean you got a new gig I do care about your new company and what you're working on you guys write in code you do Advisory do consulting actually stuff I mean you know I like my hands and lots of things so I think it's important to say that you know I've taken my experience at IBM and Microsoft and juniper and Cisco driving new innovation to market faster and new revenue channels and I've taken that and I've started a consulting firm called spark labs and what we do is we use new models like Minimum Viable Product and business model canvas to actually drive you know whether it's product whether it's service whether it's these you know new channels whether it's partner or whether you're just trying to kind of pull together your team in a new way we actually take this and and help you do it in a faster way and you know we've got the models we've got the background and you know we're working with companies that are big and small what kind of engagement you working on what kind of problems you saw so you know we have a larger company that we're working with and one of the things that they ran into is they had just changed around kind of their leadership and we've gone in and worked with their leadership team to kind of establish what this new team needs to look like what are they going to deliver on what are the metrics what are the you know kind of success things that that people are really trying to achieve and how do we empower this new team that has this new leader and you know how do we make sure that everyone's aligned I think that's part of it and the line that's critical alignment is you know you don't if you don't it's it's great to have an amazing vision but if you don't have the execution you're just not going to get there yeah Andy Jesse one of my favorite execs that I've interviewed he's pragmatic he's strong went to Harvard Law hold it against him but great super great guy but he's got a great philosophy I think I come from the Amazon culture is you argue all day long but once a decisions made you align behind it yeah so bring some constructive discourse to the table yep but once it's done they don't tolerate any you know yeah a dysfunctional aggressed passive-aggressive behavior okay say and if say your piece fuck a lot that's exactly it I mean we pull people together for a day or a day and a half and actually run them through the business model canvas which will align with like what their goals are what their mission is how their how their you know being seen in the market and lots of other things but the real goal there is to pull the team together on on you know what exactly those things are and the value that their organization has because if you can't deliver on that message you can't deliver on much more so you do need that alignment and teams are so all over the place often when you're running fast you kind of forget and so sometimes they need to be reminded what's your take on dev net create this year what's your thoughts I think it's great I mean I love the fact that you know there's folks from so many different backgrounds and so many different you know kind of technical areas here I love you know muraki's giving away 1.2 million dollars of equipment and software licenses I think that's phenomenal I'm impressed by a Cisco folks here not too overly overboard and and give them too many compliments because you know they'll get cocky no but still serious dis Cisco people that are here are kicking ass they're doing a great job they're got the microphones on they're doing the demos they're doing a lot they are jazz and they're they're not mailing it in either doing a great job and I think that's that's authentic genuine I think that's going to be a great you know seed in the in the community to grow that up again still they got a lot of work to do but I don't think it's too far of a bridge for Network guys to be cloud guys and to kind of find some middle ground so I think it's the timings perfect I think I'm super impressed with the team and I think this is a great path a Cisco to double down on and and really invest more in because it's definitely got legs and a big fan of the camp thing too we talked about the camp create where they had competitive teams hacking and spending two days on so you know love it love the culture but again early let's see where they go with it I mean if they can get the network ops go on there's DevOps for networks concepts yeah and bring it up and make it programmable couldn't ask for a better time with kubernetes all the coolness going on that microservices good time definitely a great time well great to host with you and we're here live at dev net create wrapping up two days of wall-to-wall coverage of the cube dev net create again this is the cloud ecosystem for cisco separate from the cool or dev net which is the Cisco developer program for all of Cisco a great opportunity for them of course the cubes here covering it we're gonna wrap this up and thanks for watching cube coverage here in the Computer History Museum in Mountain View California thanks for watching

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. It's theCube covering DevNet Create 2018, brought to you by Cisco. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. Live here in Silicon Valley at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. We're here for Cisco's DevNet Create. I'm John Furrier with my cohost Lauren Cooney. Our next guest is Sylvain Kalache, who's the co-founder of Holberton School. In the news today for big venture funding. Eight and a half million dollars, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for coming on, we've had many conversations with some of the folks you work with at your place there. Really great mission, CloudNow Awards have been on Open Source Summit. You guys have a very special mission, certainly recognized with some good funding, congratulations, but take a minute to explain the mission of your school. >> Yes, so the mission of the school is to provide high quality education to the most. I think that's something that is very tough in the US for American people is that there is high quality education and you know, like Ivy League are, like, obviously doing a great job, but the issue with that is that it's, like, limited to an elite. But a fraction of American people can access high quality education, and so when you look at the student debt, you know, 1.4 trillion dollar, like, something is wrong with that, right? >> John: Yeah. >> And so we want to be a part of the solution and that's why we created Holberton School. >> And the interesting thing, too, about it is that what I liked about your mission, too, is that you're very transparent about what you do and... But a lot of the jobs are skills that not a lot of people have, so it's a first time skill. So, you know, as people look to hire, say, a data scientist or someone in AI or someone in machine learning or anything in tech, for instance, no one really has that many years of experience, so there's an opportunity to level up for someone who might not have gone to a fancy school. >> Exactly, so today there is more than half a million unfilled jobs that require tech skills in the US, right. And according to the previous white house CTO, it's going to grow to 1.4 million in the next decade, right. And universities are only going to train 400,000. So, there is a gap of a million skilled people within the next 10 years for software engineering type of job, right. So, my co-founder, with Julie and Bobby, we used to be head of marketing and community and I used to work for LinkedIn, would, you know, interview a lot of people who wanted to, you know, work for Docker and LinkedIn and one of the issue we saw is that a lot of out of colleges candidates will not be ready to take on a job. They were not ready. You could see they were smarter than you think but you would need to train them for six months or a year to get them ready to take on a job. >> What makes you different, what are you guys doing that's working? Can you explain the model? >> Yeah so in regular education, we bring you the knowledge right, through a lecture to share, we lecture you right. And two weeks down the road, we give you the exam to see if you memorized, you know, like the solution kind of, right? At Holberton, we've flipped the education. We give students the exam through a project, and they have to go, acquire the knowledge, learn the tool that they need to solve the thing, right. Which is very much what we do in the workplace, right. My manager at LinkedIn would coach me and say hey Sylvain you need to build this, you need to fix that, right. And then I'm paid to like find the best solution, right. So we train our students the same way. And our students come from all walks of life. Right out of high school, some started college didn't finish, some used to be barista, poker player, guitar player, artist, teacher, and some other place, right. They come with no software engineering knowledge, and we train them from zero. For two things, first one to learn a craft that's in demand in today's software engineering. So that they can find a job you know after graduation. And second to earn or to learn, to develop problem solving skills, critical thinking. So that they can continue to grow even after graduation and continue to learn after that, right. >> Is there a requirement? >> The requirement is that you have to be over 18 years old. That's it. >> John: That's it. >> That's it. >> And what does it cost? >> So the cost is none, until you find a job, right. >> Lauren: Until you find a job. And then what happens? >> So what happens, if you find a job that is over 40,000 dollar per year, then you contribute back to the school with a percentage of your salary. So we align the school success with student success. And the final contribution that students make to the school is used to finance the next generation of students. >> Lauren: Great. >> So that, you know, an organic circle where, the more students are successful through them, the more we can train other students. >> And you're investing in the outcome of the students. >> Exactly. We are investing in our students worthy of this school. But obviously we're are like investing in their success. >> Lauren: That's great >> That's the only way for us to succeed. >> Well you're certainly optimized for success. Because you're motivated to do it right. Right, so. This is interesting. >> We are, and when we say we, it's like the Holberton staff, but also the Holberton community. Which is composed of more than 150 mentors. Who are professionals in the tech industry. And they are here for two things. To guide students to enter the tech industry. They come to the school, share their experiences. What it's like to work for a startup. What it's like to work for a big company. What it's like to be a woman in tech, right. And also, they guide us on the curriculum, right. To make sure that what is being taught, like is always relevant. And that's where students find jobs in several companies including Tesla, Apple, NASA, LinkedIn, you name it. So they're competing with Ivy League type of talent. >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> But they are definitely in the type of demographic that you really want... >> And they actually might win too, because they have the street smarts. And they get the hands on skills. Okay, so quick question, so. Is it the for-profit? Or non-profit? >> Sylvain: It's for-profit. >> Okay, so it's for-profit. But it's got a mission driven initiative. >> Sylvain: Yes. >> Tied to a profit objective. So you just raise some funding. How did that go? Is that use of funds to expand the scope? Or student body? I'm sure there's some constraints, in terms of, how much you can handle in terms of student body. Locations around the world. What is there an expansion strategy? Obviously you got some funding. >> Sylvain: Yes. >> What are you going to do with it? >> Yeah, so, we are a San Francisco based crew. We started three years ago with our first cohort of solid students. And with the location we had, we could train 100 students a year. Right. That's good but, in the grand scheme of things, it's not a lot. >> John: It's a prototype. >> It's a prototype. Exactly. So now that we have the students working for EnVideo, Dropbox, Apple, and like you know, the Google of the world. Alright, okay. Now we need to scale up and we move to a new location, that's seven times bigger. Where we'll be able to train 500 students per year, which... Because it's a two year program, we'd be a campus of 1000 students. Right. And to give you an idea of the scale, the largest University for software students, in the US is training 700 students a year. So we are like quickly coming up, as one of the largest trainer of 20,000 students. >> That's phenomenal. What's the curriculum? Is it mostly computer science? Is it mostly tech? I mean obviously you have the... I see any of you come in. But you do have women in tech. And you have a under represented minority kind of component, which is great. But it's open to anyone. >> It's open to anyone over 18. The application process is blind and fully automated. So there is no, human selection. >> John: No discrimination of any kind. >> No discrimination, and... >> How do you cut people off? Is it random? >> It's not random. >> And not random. I mean like, if you have like 500 spots. >> Yah. >> And you have 1000 applicants. >> Yah. >> So do you sort it? Is it like... >> Right. >> You get the lottery? I mean, is it... >> No, so there is only three percent of student who start the application process who make it. >> Okay, got it. >> And... >> So there's a selection criteria. >> There is a selection criteria. It's hard to get in. It's mostly based on motivation and talent. And by talent we mean, this ability to strive in this type of environment. Where you learn by doing and you learn by collaborating with your peers. Which is something that not everybody, you know, can do. >> So you identify success criteria, with what you think might be aligned with the culture of the curriculum. >> Yah, we believe that grit, is you know, a big element in people's success. And I think there is a lot of American people with grit. But they're born in the wrong zip code. They didn't have the right family, you know, who could support them. And to us, we don't want to select people because of their past. We want to select people because of who they are. Ultimately the application process is doing this for us. In terms of numbers, so far it's brought 35 percent woman. 50 percent of our students aren't white. And the age goes from anywhere from 17 to 56. So it's like very diverse crowd of students. That makes this community really amazing. >> Lauren: Yah. Coming from someone who paid for their own college, and then had to pay it all back... (laughing) I would have loved to have this around when I was going to school.6 >> John: And you still pay the pack. It's like you wanted it upfront for free. So what percentage of the salary is it? I mean, can you talk about numbers or... >> Yah. >> Cause I mean, cause that's always some people want to know the math in advance. >> Absolutely, absolutely. So it's a 17 percent of your income, for the first three years of employment, if you find a job that's over 40,000. So if you don't find a job then, you don't pay anything. >> John: And direct deposit probably, mostly. Do they have to be obligated to pay you? Do they usually do... direct deposit? >> Sylvain: Yah. We partner with third parties that's taking care of this. And it's basically like a monthly, you know, deposit. >> So it's automated for this candidates, for the students. >> Sylvain: It's automated, yah. >> Lauren: And do you do partnerships in any way? So like, you know, woman that are re-entering the work force. Or, you know... things along those lines. There's a lot of different programs out there that support. You know... >> Sylvain: Absolutely. So we are partnering with a lot of organizations. >> Lauren: Okay. >> We want to inspire... And the represented, you know like, demographic to, believe that they can become software engineer. They can be part of that, right. And so we partner... One of them is a clan now, with Justine Mitchell. >> Lauren: I won an award, yah. (Lauren laughing) >> And she was on theCube... >> Lauren: Yah. She's great. >> John: We cover their events. >> So with Justine we worked on fundraising, for women, for living state. And from Google extension... And Schelling, and yeah, we are going to help more students to get in the program. And also, one thing that we are doing is that we have a wall of trustees, where actually, Justine is sitting. We also have the singer, grammy award winner, Neyo. Who help's us to make sure we are doing everything we can, to communicate to this minority, right. And as you say, like the kid in the hood will come up with a different set of problems, and different set of ideas on how to build product and solve issues. And not only having a diverse work force is socially good. But it also makes sense business wise. Because your customer base is diverse by definition, right. >> John: Yah, I mean you need to have the algorithms. So the algorithms are being written by only a small percentage of the population. >> Sylvain: Yah, yah. They're inherently bias. >> Sylvain: They are. >> So we need to have that diversity, and plus diversity brings more unique perspectives. It might slow things down a bit. But you're going to get a much more broader representation. >> Sylvain: It is, and... >> And we heard with that in front with Mark Zuckerberg in front of senate yesterday. (Sylvain laughing) Questions like, you know... There's biases in there. Who's writing the algorithms? >> Yah, it's became even worse with AIM mission learning. If you feed this intelligence, that I've said is bias or discriminative, then AI will behave, like, with discrimination. >> And they're hidden bias so people might not even know that their biases is builtin. >> So it's terrible. I've arranged a number of money to take in the industry. In the valley's, 12 percent. So we really... and it's also bad for, like you know, authenticity. But also, I would say, none visual diversity, right. Like, what zip code? What background? What academic background do you come from? >> Yah. I mean it's a group thinking, mentality. "Oh we went to Harvard", "Oh you're instantly funded." >> Exactly. >> I mean that was the old way. The new way is the new generation. You do amazing work, we applaud your mission and success. We think this is the model, in fact, I'm even more aggressive, that you should get tax-deductions for contributing your time to the school. And the students should get a tax-deduction off the payment. This is a very skilled model. Congratulations. You should propose that. Get Mark Zuckerberg's in and Washington, DC. >> You should send to us. (laughing) >> Send some text messages, while you're there change some regulations. Hey, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you >> Holbertonschool.com. Check it out. Great mission, changing the education paradigm. Bringing a new paradigm for learning. Really filling the gap in the jobs front, across the world. It's theCube of course doing our part. Sharing it with you. Back with more live coverage here at Cisco DevNet Create, at the Computer History Museum. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

(busy music) >> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California, it's the Cube, covering DevNet Create 2018. Brought to you by Cisco. (busy music) >> Welcome back, everyone. Live here in Mountain View, California, at the Computer History Museum, the heart of Silicon Valley as the Cube covering Cisco DevNet Create. I'm here with Lauren Cooney. Our next guest is Jim Bugwadia, who's the founder of Nirmata, Cube alum, here last year at our inaugural coverage of DevNet Create. Multiyear, back to back, welcome back. >> That's right, thank you, John. >> Good to see you. >> Hi, Lauren. >> All right, so last year, we kind of talked about multicloud, I think I just did a word search of the transcript last year, 13 times we mentioned multicloud. They had, Mark Zuckerberg yesterday mentioned AI 20 times in his Senate hearing. Pretty popular. What's the update this year? What's changed in year from your standpoint? >> Certainly, the trend, as we saw, starting with containers and now with Kubernetes as an operations management platform, the movement for enterprises has start adopting multicloud, whether it's hybrid or even multiple public clouds, this continues to grow. >> I mean, we're seeing a lot more Kubernetes growth this year, a lot's changed in one year. Well, as a matter fact, that's been a full year since last year, like 10 months. But still, CNCF, KubeCon is coming up in Copenhagen, we'll be there. Just in general, the open source is kind of, essentially, ratified, defacto, Kubernetes. >> Yes, and that's been great for the community as well as for enterprises, right. Because when we had multiple orchestration platforms, several contending platforms and solutions, enterprises were staying on the sidelines trying to still decide which way to go. >> What's new with your business? Give us an update on your company. >> Yeah, absolutely. 2017 is also the year when we announced our Kubernetes focused solution, so we're completely focused on operations management off Kubernetes workloads as well as clusters. We, of course, operate multicloud, so hybrid public and private. >> What's the big trend in Kubernetes? Obviously, STO's got a lot of buzz, sidecar containers, interesting. What's your analytics and your operations management software tell you about some of the trends in Kubernetes? What's hot, what's real, what's in production? Who's playing with what features? >> Yeah, so there's runtime trends, but there's also organizational trends and patterns which are very interesting. One major shift we're seeing is, whereas in the past, it was lines of businesses, or product teams directly starting to consume cloud services or Kubernetes. Now it's IT operations, right. It's also very interesting that with Kubernetes with containers, private cloud continues to may even grow in a strong fashion. We're seeing as many private cloud deployments as public cloud deployments with Kubernetes becoming that central management play. >> I think there's a research firm, Wikibon, that predicted private cloud growth. I think we nailed that one. Everyone didn't see that coming, they thought public cloud and hybrid cloud. But I mean, private cloud is happening. That's where the action is to prepare for hybrid. >> Jim: Right. >> You see that same thing? >> Absolutely. We see two factors of them. One is, of course, in highly regulated, like we are working with the energy company, we're in their environment, they will have to obviously deploy in their private network itself. However, even enterprises where they have several workloads today, they are not moving away from private cloud, but they're using public cloud for new workloads for new applications. >> They shift some of their, I won't say baggage, but their less core workloads to the cloud, analytics, other things. Let's, so on multicloud. Obviously, we debated it last year. I've been debating it all year since. I'm not, I mean, I'm bullish on multicloud in the sense it's choice. But the notion of multicloud, to me, doesn't yet exist. I mean, having apps on Azure that run on Azure and having different apps that run on Amazon, that's multiple clouds, that's not multicloud. >> Sure. >> We're starting to see some movement when people starting to think about a day layer, control planing stuff. Where are we with multicloud apps that are moving workloads? What's your analysis? >> Before we get to the application layer for multicloud, there's also the software infrastructure services that need to become multicloud. That's a lot of what we're doing at Nirmata, right. >> John: Like what, like what? >> Like, so Nirmata itself has a common management plane, a common control plane across several Kubernetes clusters, whether those are running public cloud or private cloud, and creating a common set of policies. That, in our opinion-- >> John: For infrastructure or for the apps? >> For both the clusters as well as workloads which go into the clusters. Because certainly, even if you take a containerized Kubernetes app, how you run it in production may be very different than how you run it in dev test, right. Something has to govern those policies and make sure that each cluster is set up in the right manner, so those infrastructure services first need to exist. I think the application side of things will come. We're seeing still great, a lot of innovation in the storage space. That is still a problem that needs to be solved. >> Foundationally, you agree that what you guys are working on is, foundationally, get the clusters, handle the infrastructure, get that right. >> Exactly. >> That's what's going to be dynamic. >> Absolutely. >> Don't worry about the apps yet, that kind of thing. >> Yeah, and having the ability, like one of the demos we show is the ability to take an application and to be able to create a like application in a different cloud. Now, it may not be, we might not migrate the storage, because, in production, that's not something, that's not a realistic use case. But you still want to be having the choice of being able to choose where that application gets deployed, that's a huge benefit. >> Let's go put our IT ops hat on for a second, just throw something at you. I'm an IT ops guy, I'm like, hm, we've got some on prem, we've got some Azure, I got some Amazon. I got EC2, S3, and a bunch of other stuff on Amazon, I got Azure, I forget what they use for storage, not S3, that's Amazon. Then in house, I'm running all my own provision stuff. What the heck, do I have to hire three guys? What's the, where's that come together? People get stuck there. >> Sure. Yeah, so obviously, if you're using multiple cloud providers and multiple systems, you will need some skill set, some expertise there. But more and more, the abstractions that are, again, created by Kubernetes and then with software like Nirmata is decoupling applications from that, right. It's that clean decoupling, something which we've always wanted in this space of infrastructure from applications, that's finally happening and that's really exciting. >> It'll be great when we see Office 365 running on Amazon. We made it, multicloud. >> Or at least on Linux, right, so that will happen. >> Yeah, cool. >> Great, well, when you look at these applications that you're decoupling, and I fully believe in a loosely coupled environment as well, what about the data that they can actually pull from the network? What is valuable that you kind of want to build into that application? >> Yeah, so certainly the types of data that you would, and there's systems of record and sort of systems of interaction, right. The type of data that you would probably want to keep towards your private cloud is still those systems of records, because of regulation, because of other types of requirements. But so, the engagement data, that that can be shared, distributed using some of the more innovative sort of storage concepts, distributed storage, across these clouds. >> Great, so when you're working, you've got a set of customers that, you're doing pretty well. Are you finding that, you're working with these customers that are still kind of in the old IT age, and you're kind of bringing them up to speed? Or do these guys, do they get it and they're looking for your help to really get there further and faster? >> Yeah, so when we started and Nirmata was founded in late 2013, so a lot of the conversations we had back then were why containers, why microservices. Those terms didn't even exist at that time, right. Well, containers did, but in a different form. But now it's more, enterprises know they want to go towards containers, they want to use Kubernetes, and they're looking for help and guidance in how to get there. The conversations are very different than the other. Another major trend we're seeing, like I mentioned, is the centralization of that function. Because larger enterprises are realizing that doing this in a distributed fashion, having each team build their own expertise with every cloud provider is just not scalable or cost effective, yeah. >> What's your definition of serverless? I mean, this is like a hot trend. Lambda's got functions to service. Really interesting. >> People are driving to it. >> Jim: Yeah, absolutely. >> What's your, how would you define serverless for the folks that you talk to, that say, "What is serverless?" >> Yeah, so there, one definition, obviously, the popular definition is where developers don't have to worry about the servers or any of the infrastructure, right. They're providing a function and then somehow, magically, the rest just happens, right. But I'm a software developer, I come from a development background. In any programming language, we have an object oriented, we have had lambda functions in Java as a programming language. But Java is also object oriented. My belief, and what we feel is going to happen is, applications are going to be a mix of things like serverless or lambda style functions, and stateful functions and stateless services. You need all of these in an enterprise application. It's not one or the other. >> What's the glue layer in this? >> Yeah, so that's where we feel, again, Kubernetes is the right choice. You see things like open FaaS being built on Kubernetes. We completely believe in the mission of the CNCF and how things are rolling out there, and the fact that even technologies like serverless have to start becoming decoupled from a particular provider or vendor and more of an industry standard. >> Here's a question for you. If someone asks you, hey, how should I look at the big cloud providers? Got Amazon and Google, Microsoft, you got Oracle, IBM, Alibaba, certainly for China, you go to Alibaba, they're going to cut you a deal. But I have to make some decisions about what's going to happen in the next five years as setting the foundation for an architecture. As a software engineer, what's your advice on that just getting the playbook ready, thinking about the first few steps to take, to start thinking about, OK, I'm going to be dealing with multicloud, assuming some things happen that we see connecting the dots. What's your advice? >> Yeah, so the first question is, for your business, and all of this has to be driven by business needs requirements, right, is, is it OK to be locked in into a single stack, a single vendor or provider? In a lot of cases, if you're a startup, if you're five people starting out, that may be a very good choice, and that is the most optimal path, right. Maybe you do that for a first couple of years. But as you grow, if you're an enterprise with several different teams, several applications, and if your business requires you to run on different platforms, you're going to make some different choices. That's when you would want your applications to be portable, so definitely, it makes sense to leverage cloud providers for infrastructure services, but locking in your applications to a single provider has to be carefully thought about and driven from a business perspective. >> John: You got to have choice. >> Yeah. >> All right, what's up with Nirmata? What's your action this year? What are you guys looking at doing? What's the next step? I see CNCF is doing great, good bet you guys are making. What's the product roadmap look like? What's some of the value propositions? How is this evolving, how is it evolving? >> Yeah, certainly what we see in the space, and what we're excited about, we're growing and in turn with our customers, of course. At this point, we're well funded. We're looking at doubling our head count and also-- >> John: How much did you guys raise? >> We haven't publicly announced that, but we're-- >> John: OK, but you have venture capital? >> Yeah, for the next 18 months, we're kind of funded. >> OK, a good runway. >> Yeah. Certainly, we have access to more-- >> Do you have customers? >> Yes. >> How many customers do you have? >> There's approaching the dozens now. But what we're doing-- >> Good sized customers? >> Yeah. We are focused on mid to large enterprises, right? What we do is, our appeal is to IT operations teams who are looking at deploying Kubernetes as a service for their business. As they, and IT is now sort of, in some ways, taking on this function of being able to leverage multiple cloud providers, choose where workloads go, and manage the efficiencies, manage these in their deployments. >> I mean, ops is not going away. Everything's ops now. >> Yeah, right. >> Well, thanks for coming on, appreciate it. You can see next update. >> Absolutely. >> Let me see you around KubeCon or some of the CNCF events. Great to see you. The Cube coverage here in Mountain View California for the cloud native DevOps community, part of Cisco's new foray into DevOps, DevNet Create is a part of DevNet, but this is an extension to the DevNet core Cisco Developer Conference. I'm John Furrier, Lauren Cooney, be back with more after this short break. (busy music)

(busy music) >> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California, it's the Cube, covering DevNet Create 2018. Brought to you by Cisco. (busy music) >> Hello and welcome back to the Cube's live coverage here in Silicon Valley at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View California for Cisco's DevNet Create 2018. I'm John Furrier with my co-host, Lauren Cooney. This week, our next guest is Paul Giblin, Senior Solutions Architect, Presidio. Welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you, thank you for having me. >> Cisco, Champion, Spark Master, you've written pretty much everything under the sun for Cisco? >> Paul: CCIE, yeah. >> Yeah. We've been following this story a long time, obviously, DevNet, really successful, almost a half a million developers in that community and growing. DevNet Create, kind of putting a forward flank on cloud kind of bringing that migration path, the connection between the developer programs, really, and the communities. >> Paul: Sure. >> They don't have a translation, I mean, what's your take on it as you look at it, I mean, some very relevant things, the programmable network is cool. What's your reaction to the direction, your thoughts, input? >> I think it's a fantastic program. I've mentioned it in several other interviews I've done over time. It's a great program, because it's about enablement. It's helping people get from where they used to be as CLI junkies and where we've been for the last 25 years, and moving them into a new space where they can now do much more with the network, and continue to remain relevant as well. >> What are some of the things that you see? Because we, I have a lot of friends who work at Cisco, worked there, back in the '90s, been the crew, and obviously, they ran the networks, it is well documented the historic nature of Cisco. But the debate internally has always been moving up the stack. At what point, Cisco is very cool about knowing their place in the stack, doing kickass things. But then as the market changes, now you have that stack change, certainly with DevOps, you now have abstraction layer, you've got Kubernetes. Now you have, now, the ability to take all the network stuff that was really enabling the apps to co-exist with apps sharing data, getting programmability. Where's the use cases? Where is the low hanging fruit for folks that are looking to put their toe in the water, and/or becoming more modern in that, in more of a fabric way, or however it's called, or what's your view on the use cases? >> They're still fuzzy, I'm still trying to figure that out myself. I've run into a lot, and most of them seem to be automation use cases, at least so far. My brain is wired to think from the perspective of the infrastructure engineer, and less so the developer. But as I continue to attend DevNet events and immerse myself in the community, I'm finding I'm starting to look at things through a new lens, and I think that's one of the big values of coming here. >> I think, too, when you take a look at coming from the application layer, where I come from, actually, and also from the infrastructure layer, you have these application developers that actually don't know the power of what they can get from the network. By offering up APIs, they can start to pull this data into their applications to make them run better, to have better uptime, to add more features, more data, whatever they may need from that network, if they have ability to understand the network to a certain perspective. >> I think one of the challenges you have there is very much like infrastructure folks, or traditional infrastructure folks don't really understand a lot of what's going on with the application. You have the converse as well, so a lot of folks who are working in the application space don't understand the infrastructure. Even though Cisco's exposing a lot of really cool functionality and capability, they might not necessarily understand how to leverage it, and I think that's where the value really exists in the market today, is for the people who can come from the infrastructure side and take on a little bit of the application and people who are on the application side who can really say they're going full stack including the infrastructure, right. >> On the network side, one of the things that have always been important is provisioning, configuration management, these are the tenets of a nice solid network. But now, when you talk about the DevOps, one of the things is, oh, yeah, just pull provision, they have some of there. Like, they want dynamic, right. Policy base has been around for a while, QoS, these are concepts. How do you view that? Because now this is an opportunity to bring a known network construct to apps. Now with decentralization in apps, network effect is a huge dynamic, you're seeing the notion of network effects, how people share, how apps are integrating. I mean, Facebook's trying to explain to the senators yesterday and then today how Facebook works. App services now are taking on a much more different look. But they're network apps, basically. This is really kind of coming to the forefront. I mean, how does a network guy get trained up on that? I mean, is there common threads that you see where people, as they learn more, where they can connect in? Do you have any thoughts on that? >> I wouldn't even know where to begin. When I look at this stuff, I think about how do I make the network so that it's available and rock solid and able to support whatever application may ride on top of it. I think the change, as you had mentioned, is really, now, how do I allow people who aren't necessarily going to be moving cables and getting deep with the network, interact with it in a safe, controlled way where they're not necessarily going to break anything, but they are able to affect some kind of change that helps their app run on the infrastructure it's sitting on top of. >> On the Spark side, you mentioned you're a Spark master. >> Paul: Sure. >> That's a collaboration app uses video and all kinds of stuff. How is that workload treated in the network? Is it much more locked down, is it more? I mean, because that's a dynamic app. How is that integrating on the Cisco on Cisco environment? >> I think that traditional roles for QoS still apply. I don't think trying to dynamically change QoS has ever been a good idea. I think it's a really dynamic thing, and it's very difficult to pin down because at any given point in time, I could be communicating with the cloud, I could be communicating with five other end points over here, I could be hitting an MCU, a data center somewhere, a video bridge that sits locally, kind of across the room. There's a lot of different ways to communicate. What makes that scary and difficult and hard to code for is, they're all different and it's not standardized. I think we're just getting to a place now where that may be a reality, but we're not there yet. >> Yeah, I mean, you bring up a good point. One of the things that jumps in my head immediately is like all this multicloud talk is a nightmare, because you think about just latency alone on interconnect between clouds. Even though they publish direct connections, I mean, you live in a world of latency. Like, it's so unknown, so I mean, there's a lot of real unknowns that are coming to the table that architects really got to figure out. I find that fascinating. Have you had a chance to play with the wireless stuff that's on the Cisco side? >> Paul: Sure. >> In terms of how that's planning out? How is that going, because that's an IoT enabler? >> Yeah, so there's all kinds of use cases around wireless. Location is a huge one. I think there was a gentleman who was presenting yesterday with a mapping application that shows how to get from point A to point B. I think there's been a couple of organizations have implemented that at a very large scale who had a lot of resources to put behind it. But I think your average consumer company or enterprise company is not really equipped to build things like that. I think Meraki is starting to try and make that easy. Stuff like that's really exciting. >> Yeah, I mean, I think it's got a lot of prospects. What are you working on now? What are the cool projects you're working on now? What are you digging your teeth into from a project standpoint? >> I've been working on an app for several months with a couple of co-workers of mine to start to automate switch migrations. In the infrastructure world, you're going to have switch refreshes every so often, and it's a difficult and manual process. We're working on a set of tools to automate that to get people who are really intelligent folks working on more creative things so that they're not doing rote labor nearly as much. I've been kind of building toolkits to help with automation of business processes that we go through at Presidio. >> Automation, dev, just automating the manual tasks, you mean, or is it more? >> Well, the manual tasks still need to happen, so your engineers still need to move cables from A to B. >> John: Yeah, obviously. >> But we're automating what happens logistically in terms of what you need to do to prepare for that migration, how that process is instrumented during actual execution. Then how it looks in terms of accountability and auditability after the job has been completed. >> That's a good point. In fact, let's bring that up, because we debate this all the time in the Cube in conversations, because someone, oh, you do something three times, you should be automating it. Not necessarily, the real human component, obviously, cable, you've got to move cable here, they don't just magically move, you can't automate that. But, and there's physics on the wireless side, too, you can't really change those things. But what is an ideal things to automate? You mention things that make sense. Hey, I'm doing this prep work and automate that. What are some of the things that you advise people to look to when they think about automation? What's the areas that kind of filter past you? >> I think the things that are ripe targets for automation are the things you don't like to do. If you can find something that somebody else is doing and doesn't want to do, automate that, and you've got a built in customer right there. >> Yeah, yeah, big ear. All right, cool, well, what do you think of the show here? Thoughts? >> I think the show's fantastic. I didn't get to attend last year and I really wish that I had, but this is my first one, and my experience here has been fantastic. >> John: Any sessions you like the best? Things you jumped on? >> I like the sessions I deliver the best. >> Well, thanks so much for coming on the Cube. >> Thank you. >> Excellent work, great job. >> Thank you much. >> The Cube, bringing all the action, Cisco Champions, getting down in the trenches and the practitioners doing all the work, really is the convergence of networks and the cloud and software DevOps coming together, really, with the two worlds coming together, it's certainly relevant, and this is what we're covering here on the Cube. More live coverage here in Mountain View, California after this short break. (busy music)

>> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California, it's The Cube! Covering DevNet Create 2018, brought to you by Cisco. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to The Cube's special coverage of Cisco DevNet Create here in Mountain View, California, the heart of Silicon Valley. We're at the Computer History Museum. I'm here with Lauren Cooney, who's co-hosted with me for the past two days' wall-to-wall coverage. We've been kind of getting down in the community with Cisco's DevNet Create, which is an extension to their main DevNet developer program, which is mostly network-centric, classic Cisco developers, guys configuring networks, the power players in the enterprise and all around the world as we know it. But now that the cloud native's taken off we're here exploring that DevOps equation. Our next guest is Rowell Dionicio, who's a network engineer at Stanford, welcome to The Cube, thanks for coming on! >> Thanks for having me. >> Love Stanford, very progressive, always having state of the art facilities, I mean, hell, the campus just gets better every year. It's like a cathedral of new buildings- >> Rowell: It's always under construction. >> Always under construction, football team's been decent for the last decade, which is good as a season ticket holder, but the network drives it all, the great facilities there. So now see you're here as a Cisco practitioner. Networks have been running the show for many, many years, now comes cloud, Stanford's got a lot of stuff going on on campus, obviously academic computing, business computing, is there a lot of cloud going on there? And is there a lot of DevOps happening? Give us a quick take on- >> There's a lot of cloud. I come from the infrastructure side, so this is my first time here at DevNet Create. I wanted to get a feel for what's coming. What do I need to learn in order to make that next step to help bring a better network, help students connect, help staff connect. >> Yeah, the network guys have all the power, always have been, but what's interesting is Susie Wee at Cisco, she's leading the team around DevNet Create, we talked at their last show in Barcelona about on top of that she was introducing, which I love, network ops. Which is essentially what DevOps is, but making the network truly programmable, at a level where it's a service. That's the nirvana scenario, that's the dream scenario. >> It is, yeah, and we actually have a lot of that already in place, but obviously there's still a lot of areas that we can improve, especially in maybe the wireless space, and that's why I'm here. What can I do on the wireless side to help drive that? Is there something that we can do better, more efficiently? >> I mean, we always do this ad hoc, unscientific surveys. We interviewed the guy who runs the stadium for the San Francisco Giants, the guy who runs the stadium for the Sharks, Levi Stadium. The number one complaint is wireless. And it's like in the Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. >> It's a tough one to crack. I hear those complaints, I get 'em, and I try to fix them as quickly as I can. But it's one of those things where you can't see it, and I think wireless is just such a robust technology that it'll work even in the worst scenarios. >> That enables a lot of IOT, but also the consumer side with the students and the faculty. Is the strategy at Stanford just to blanket coverage of campus, you guys just throw the RF all over the place? >> We don't, we don't just put it everywhere and anywhere. We actually think about it and it's not just in terms of coverage, it's also capacity and how people want to use it. And so we try to design around those requirements, and also if we're bring in IOTs, how do those devices work with wireless? Am I going to deploy something that those devices actually work well with it? I don't know, and so we have to do a lot of testing, ask a lot of questions. What's the use case? Where do they want it? Is it even possible? >> The analytics are interesting, right? You look at the patterns, and they're humans, they're connecting, so you can see where the crowds are, probably, I imagine you look at the concentration? >> We're not even at that point yet. We're actually just looking at it. That's why I'm here, to see how can I do this on our network: is it possible, how do we deploy this and make it work with other schools on the campus? To see whether or not it's a great use-case for us. >> 'Cause the schools have their own kind of kingdom kind of thing, or how does it?- >> A little bit, yeah. >> So there's some job there maybe, yeah? Well, let me ask a question, as you're creatively looking at the solution, if you could have the magic wand, what are some of the things that you want to do, if you kind of think about some of the dream scenarios, the futuristic kind of view? >> Yeah, if it was just as easy as putting it up, and making it work, that would be fantastic. But we have to work with physics, radio frequency, so it's not that easy, not yet. >> So what are you thinking about when there has to be a lot of compatibility that you're looking at in terms of the different campuses, what will work with what, how can we make it more streamlined, mesh-like, etc., is that something you're considering? >> It's a lot of planning that's involved. So not so much mesh, we don't do too much of that, but a lot of it has to go around with the requirements of the building, for one. A lot of the buildings on campus are considered historic, so we can't really place access points the way we want them to be installed. So we have to work around that challenge. And then it's getting it to the areas where people want wireless, which is also another challenge. And then budget and infrastructure. Then people start throwing devices and then that we don't even know about, so they'll want IOT everything, whatever you can put wireless on, they want that. >> How are you mapping for security purposes? What are you doing for that? I mean that has to be something that you're looking at. >> We definitely have a network that's secure, which uses certificate-based authentication. We have our regular Stanford network, but we really secure the infrastructure side and allow students, staff, teachers to really try to innovate around that. So we don't put a lot of restrictions on the network. We do protect anything coming from the outside coming in, but going out to the internet, if they want to develop something, there's a lot of great stuff that comes out of Stanford, and we don't want to inhibit any of that process. >> As a Cisco kind of champion, you guys can look at Cisco, and honestly, certainly the network enables a lot. What are you learning here, what do you hope to walk out of here with, what sessions have you played around with, what did you gravitate to? >> I gravitated toward some of the beginner sessions, which would have to be with how to program using Python. I looked at some location-based stuff. Maybe there's location-based services that we want to roll out to the campus. That's a big topic amongst the industry right now. And then efficiency as well, how can I deploy faster if it's just me working on a certain project? Those kind of things, and even reporting, how can I get statistics, how do I know how many devices are on a section of the campus or an AP? Those kind of things, something that will be easier for me and maybe my co-workers as well to get the information we need and then be able to deliver the services and the infrastructure faster as well. >> How's the tooling for you guys over there? Obviously with DevNet Create you can almost see the dots connecting. Apps could be developed, either custom apps, and they're different, you can't really have an off-the-shelf app. You could have general purpose EDU apps for maybe networks, but you guys are a pretty unique environment there. Are there apps now that you use or are they coming? >> It's very unique. It's a big campus, so there are apps that just don't fit right out of the box, so there's a lot of custom apps. Some of the stuff I'm not part of, but I do use them and they are custom. It's very tailored to what exactly we need, what information are we trying to get, and they build tools around that. >> What the Stanford network like? Stanford as a school, top shelf, everything's great. They have a smokin' network? I mean, what's the bandwidth, give us some numbers! What's the upstream? We know from a live-streaming standpoint, we've been there- >> We have a good upstream, I'll tell you that. And there's multiple, for redundancy, so at least 10 gigs for some parts of the campus. And we do get a lot of devices on wireless. I think the last number I've seen was around 40,000 unique devices on wireless. So it's getting larger. >> Rogue devices, I mean obviously, we were talking before Cameron, just joking, there's a lot of power there, a lot of network, I can see kids bitcoin mining in their dorm rooms. I mean it's what I would probably try to do. >> I don't monitor, we don't monitor what they actually do on the network. We just deliver the pipes. >> You realize there's thousands of people rejoicing now over what you just said. (laughs) >> I'm sure there's entrepreneurs out there. >> I'm not on the security team, so maybe the security team does something, but as far as I know on the wireless, we just try to deliver connectivity. I don't want to do anything that inhibits somebody from doing a project that they're trying to do. 'Cause they always develop a lot of great applications, a lot of great products, I don't want to be that guy that says no you can't do that. >> But you got to also make sure, you don't want to restrict the creativity, because Stanford does have a lot of students who go out and start companies, Snapchat, you name it, they're all there. >> We'll see a lot of rogues, and I do go and get the bad ones, but there are some people who are trying to build a network to create a use-case around this application that they're building, and that I won't block because I know what they're doing. I tell them how you should go and approach it, so that way there's no security issues. If there's a potential security issue, I say, hey, you need to talk to the security team and get them on board. >> So you guys are lackadaisical, but you're actually encouraging them, but there's an honor system it sounds like, if they kind of come clean you guys give them some barriers to bounce around on? >> Yeah, we have the fences in place. I won't talk too much on the security side, because I'm not the guy who does the security. >> But you're not locking people down, it's not like a hard-core, chop your hands off- >> It's not like we're filtering a lot of content or anything. But if you're doing something bad, you'll be found. >> What else can you tell us about what's going on at Stanford that you think is well-positioned vis-a-vis the theme here, which is take the network, move up the stack, these things like kubernetes, this is bringing kind of a new concept. You guys are already progressive in the way you posture to the audience out there. >> A lot of the people on campus have the freedom, I would say enough freedom, to go out and try these kubernetes or maybe like Node-RED. And those are the kind of things I want to see if I could leverage those technologies as well, on our side. I think the campus is adopting the cloud, so a lot of people are moving to the cloud. I think there was some push-back there, but I think people are starting to see the full benefits of using it. >> Are there some bug bounties out there all, any incentives for students? >> Oh I don't know, maybe for the other guys. >> Rowell, thanks for coming by, I appreciate it. And good luck on your journey, appreciate it. Thanks for coming on The Cube. Okay, Stanford here, talking about network, It's hot, I've been there, I can tell you the bandwidth's strong at Standford, a great university. It's The Cube, bringing you all the action here in Silicon Valley in Mountain View, at Computer History Museum for Cisco's DevNet Create 2018. We'll be right back with more after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. It's theCUBE covering DevNet Create, 2018, brought to you by Cisco. (techy music playing) >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. We're live here in Mountain View, California, in the heart of Silicon Valley for Cisco's DevNet Create. This is their new developer outreach kind of cloud, devops conference, different than DevNet their core, Cisco Networking Developer Conference is kind of an extension, kind of forging new ground. Of course theCUBE's covering, we love devops, we love cloud. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, my cohost today. Our next guest is Alex Ellis, project founder of OpenFaas, F-A-A-S, function as a service. That's serverless, that's Kubernetes, that's container madness. You name it, that's the cool, important trend, thanks for joining us. >> Yeah, thanks for having me, it's great to be here. >> So, talk about the founding of the project. So, you're the founder of the project-- >> Alex: Yeah. >> And you now work for VmWare, so let's just get this-- >> Yeah. >> On the record, so-- >> Alex: Yeah, I think this is-- >> Take a minute to explain. >> This is important just to set a bit of context now. I started this project from the lens of working with AWS Lambda as a Docker captain. I was writing these Alexa skills and I found that I had to hack in a web editor and click upload, or I had to write a zip file, put dependencies on my laptop, and upload that to the cloud every time I changed it. It just didn't feel right because I was so bought into containers. It's the same everywhere, there's no more, "It works on my machine." >> John: You're going backwards. >> Right? (laughing) So, I put a POC together for Docker Swarm and nobody had done it at that point, and it got really popular. I got to Docker Concourse Hacks Contest and presented to 4,000 people in the closing keynote, and I kind of thought it would just blossom overnight, it would explode, but it didn't happen, and actually, the months... We're going back 14 now, I grew a community and spent most of my time growing the community and extending the project. Now, that has been really fruitful. It's led to over 11,000 stars on GitHub, 91 individual contributors, and much, much more. It's been a really rich experience, but at the same time-- >> So, rather than going big rocket ship you kind of went, hunkered down and got a kernel of core people together. >> Alex: Yeah. >> Kind of set the DNA, what is the DNA of this project if you had to describe it? >> Yeah, so I think at the heart of it it's serverless functions made simple for Docker and Kubernetes. >> Great, and so how does Amazon play into this? You were using Amazon cloud? >> Yeah, I was using AWS and I was using Lambda, and that flow was not what I was used to in the enterprise. It wasn't what I was used to as a Docker captain. You know, I wanted a finite image that I could scan for vulnerabilities. >> John: Yeah. >> I could check off and promote through an environment. >> John: Yeah. >> Couldn't do it, so that was what OpenFaas aimed to do, was to make those serverless functions easy with Docker as a runtime. >> Well, congratulations, it's a lot of hard work. First, building a community's very difficult, and certainly one that's relevant. Cool and relevant, I would say, is serverless and functions. We'll certainly be seeing that now at the uptake. Still early on, but people are working on it. So, then now, let's forward to today. You work for VMWare, so-- >> Alex: Yeah. >> How did they get involved, are you shipping the project to VMWare, do they own it? Do you maintain the independence? What's the relationship between VMWare, yourself, and the project, if you can talk about that. >> Yeah, I think that's a great question. So, I got to the point where I had demands on my time around the clock. I couldn't rest, open source project, weekends, nights, the lot. >> John: You need the beer money, too, by the way. >> Right, yeah. >> You need some beer money. >> And I was working at ADP and just doing all of this in my own time, and then had a number of different options that came up and people saying, "Look, how are you going to sustain this, "how are you going to keep doing what you love?" You know, you should be working on it full time. One of the options that came up was from VMWare to work in the Open Source Technology Center. It's relatively new-- >> John: Mm-hmm. >> And the mission of the OSTC is to show VMWare as a good citizen in the community and to contribute back to meaningful projects, right, that relate to their products. >> Yeah, and they have good leadership, too, at VMWare. A lot of people don't know that. We did a couple CUBE interviews with them last year, and there is a group inside VMWare that just does that, not with the tentacles of VMWare and Dell Technologies in there. It's an independent group. >> Alex: Yeah. >> They probably go to some meetings and do some debrief, but for the most part it's kind of decoupled from VMWare, right. >> Yeah, right. So, the mission is not necessarily to make money and to produce products. It's to contribute to open source. Help with inbound so when we need to consume a project in a product, and outbound when we want to make the world a better place. >> So, I'm not going to put words in VMWare's mouth, but I will speculate covering VMWare since theCUBE started. We've been to every VMWorld and everyone knows we've got the good presence there, but if I'm VMWare I'm like, "Hey, you know what, we just "did a deal with Amazon, our enterprise "group is not so cloud savvy." I mean, the enterprise, there are operators, not true cloud native, but they're bridging that gap. The world of cloud native and enterprise is coming together. Does this project fit into that spot? Is that kind of where they saw it? Did I get that right or what was their interest other than doing-- >> Alex: Yeah. >> Helping the world out and solving world peace in the open source community. >> Yeah, so the mission of OSTC is slightly different. It's to contribute back to meaningful projects and to have this presence in the community. You know, I think OpenFaas is particularly attractive because it has such a broad community. There's people all around the world that are contributing to it, very active. For VMWare it makes a lot of sense because it runs natively on Kubernetes or Docker Swarm, and it's gained a lot of traction, people are using it. >> John: Mm-hmm. >> I had a call with BT Research before I came out and they said, "We've been using it for seven months. "We absolutely love it, it's transforming "how we're doing our microservices," and so I think that's part of it, as well as already have kind of a lead. Already have a lot of momentum with this project. >> So, are you looking to, you know, I know that the organization that you work for is really focused on driving this outbound, right? >> Alex: Yeah, yeah. >> Is VMWare using this internally as well? >> So, I think there's been a number of people who've shown an interest. You can think, "Right, there's a problem "we could solve with this," and I'm just getting my feet under the table, but really my mission is to make serverless functions simple to build this community-- >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> And to have something that people can turn to as an alternative. So, one of the things that I did in the talk yesterday was, "How do you explain OpenFaas to your boss," and one of the points there was to unlock your data. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> And I think we talked about this briefly before, now with controversies recently about data and who owns it, what's happening with it, I think it's even more relevant that-- >> John: Yeah. >> You can have full control over the whole stack if you want-- >> John: Yeah. >> Or use a product like Microsoft AKS, their Kubernetes service-- >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> Or GKE and actually treat OpenFaas like a very thin layer of automation. >> Lauren: Really, okay. >> Or go full stack and have everything under your control. >> I mean, that's a great conversation to have, too, because obviously you're kind of referring to the Facebook situation. Zuckerberg's testifying it front of Senate yesterday, Congress today, and it's funny because watching him talk to senators in the US, they really don't know how stuff works, and so if you think about what Facebook does... I mean, granted they took some liberties. They're not the perfect citizen, they got slapped. They took it to the woodshed, if you will, but their mission is to use the data, and this is where cloud native's interesting and I think I want to get your reaction to this, you need to use the data, not treat it as a siloed, fenced in data warehouse. That model's old, right-- >> Alex: Yeah. >> It's now horizontal and scalable. Data's got to move and you've got to have data to make other things happen. That's the way these services are working. >> Yeah. >> So, it's really important to have addressability of the data and you know, GDPR takes an attempt at, you know, kind of hand waving that simple argument away. I'm not really a big fan of that, personally, but the role of data's super important. You've got to make it pervasive, so the challenge is how do you manage those controls. Is that an opportunity for functions? What's your reaction to that whole paradigm of data? >> Yeah, so we're talking about anonymous usage data, like Facebook situation or-- >> Just data in general... Oh, no, just data in general, if I'm an application and I have data-- >> Alex: Yeah. >> That I'm generating, same development of service-- >> Alex: Yeah. >> I need, you might want to leverage that data. So, I'm going to have to have a mechanism for you to share that data to make your service better-- >> Alex: Yeah. >> Because data makes data, you know-- >> Alex: Yeah. >> The alchemy side of it is interesting, but then there's all... You get trapped in regulation, licensing, it can be destructive. >> Yes, so as an engineer, and as an open source engineer, you find people that have no clue about what an MIT license is to a GPL or why you'd use one or the other. I think there's a lot we can do to educate the wider community and help them to learn the basics of these issues. When I was at university we had a course on ethics and legal issues and licensing, and I heard on the radio earlier on the Uber that they're starting to try and up the level of that again, and I think it really needs to start at a ground level. We need to educate people about these issues so that they're aware of how to handle the data. I mean, if you look at common tools like Docker and VS Code and Atom, popular editors, they collect anonymous usage statistics and you have to opt out. You know, should OpenFaas collect data as well, because it can be super helpful for us to know the right thing to do. >> Yeah. >> And when you come to open source you get no feedback until somebody wants support from you and it has to be done yesterday for free. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> And so, yeah, getting data can be super powerful. >> Well, Alex, you bring up a great point. I think this is something that's worthy of an ongoing conversation. I think it will be, too, because GPL, Apache license, all these licenses were built when open source was a Tier 2 citizen, so the whole idea of these-- >> Alex: Yeah. >> Licenses was to create a robust sharing economy of code, and you know, with the certain nuances of those licenses. But just like stacks get updated and modernized with what we've seen the containers and now Kubernetes is serverless, the stack is changing and modernizing. The licenses have to, as well, so I think this is something that... I don't, I think it's kind of like we've got to get on it. (laughing) It's like I think we should just, this is a work area. It's not necessarily... It's game changing if you don't do it, right, because it could-- >> Yeah. >> It could flip it either way. So, to me that's my opinion. >> Well, I think you're under MIT, correct, is that-- >> So, it's under MIT right now. >> Lauren: Okay. >> One of the things that I didn't realize when I started the project is if you want to get into a big foundation like the Cloud Native Computing Foundation you need an Apache 2.0 license, and the main difference is that it offers some protections around patent claims, but it's basically-- >> Lauren: Okay. >> Compatible, so it is a minefield, and it's-- >> Lauren: So, that's just for the CNCF? >> Right, and the Apache Foundation, obviously as well. >> Lauren: Yes. >> And probably many others follow suit because I think it, we talk about the-- >> John: It's the dual source, it's the dual source. >> A refresh... >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> Right, it's a compatible license, it seems to help a lot of people. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> That's a huge issue because you could be well down the road with committing code and then the lawyers will make you take it out. >> Right, so that's why organizations like the Open Source Program Office exist within VMWare, to help these issues and to monitor and do compliance. They may use software like Black Duck to check stuff-- >> Lauren: Yep, mm-hmm. >> Automatically because you don't want to be doing checks on your aircraft once it's in the air. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> John: Yeah. >> You want to sort out everything out on the ground. >> You'll be grounding your fleet, that's for sure-- >> Right. >> When it comes to that, how do you handle that with licensing? How do you guys handle that when people contribute? >> Yeah. >> Are they aware of the license or they don't understand the implications? >> So, with OpenFaas we follow a model very similar to the Linux kernel, which is a sign off developer certificate of origin. What you're saying is I'm allowed to give you this code, I'm allowed for this to be a part of the project and I wrote it, I originated it. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> And that's pretty much a good balance between a full contributor license agreement and nothing at all. >> John: Yeah. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> But look, there's a lot of projects in this space right now. I don't know if you've noticed that, Kubernetes serverless projects. >> Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of really interesting, it's why I like this show here. I think what Cisco's smart to do here at DevNet Create is identify the network programmability, which really takes devops, expands the aperture of what devops is, so-- >> Alex: Yeah. >> You know, as you got new applications coming online some developers want nothing to do with the infrastructure. Kubernetes has got a much more active and more prominent role with layer seven primitives, for instance, or-- >> Alex: Yeah. >> Managing things down to the network layer. You're talking about policy services inside services on the fly, so this is really a big, a good thing, in my opinion. So, you know, I think, Kubernetes, most people look at as a kind of generic orchestration, but I think there's so much more there. >> Alex: Yeah. >> I think that to me is attracting some really rockstar developers. >> Yeah, well I think, you know, the fact that you are open, you're under the MIT license, which I am a fan of-- >> Alex: Yeah. >> And you know, it is, you're on a very successful trajectory in terms of, you know, what you're building and who's engaged and the fact that VMWare is behind you means that they're going to put some money into it, hopefully, and help you guys along as it works, but it is also a project that is not... You know, it doesn't have folks just from VMWare. >> Alex: Yeah. >> It's really, really diverse in terms of who's committing the code. So, I think there's a lot of things that are really going for you. Now, who do you see, you mentioned competitors... >> Alex: Yeah. >> So, can you talk a little bit about what the ecosystem there looks like? >> Yeah, so there's a number of projects that I think have made some really good decisions about their architecture and their implementation. They all vary quite subtly, and one of the questions I get asked a lot is, you know, how is this different from X, cubeless nucleo, and if you look at the CNCF landscape there used to be a very small section with OpenFaas, Lambda, and a couple of others. It's now so big it has its own PDF just about serverless, and I think that's super confusing for people. So, part of what we're trying to do is make that simple and say, "Look, there may be many options. "Here's OpenFaas, here's how it works. "You can get it deployed in 60 seconds. "You can have any binary or any programming language "you want and it will scale up over Kubernetes." We'll just make a really deep integration, give you everything you'd expect, really nice developer experience. >> Lauren: That's great. >> What are some of the use cases you see right now, low hanging fruit for developers that want to come in and get involved in the project? Have you guys identified any low hanging fruit use cases? >> So, what I've seen, and I talked about this a bit yesterday in the talk, is three big use cases, really. The first one was Anisha Keshavan at University of Washington. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> Now, she's doing a lot of data science with neuroinformatics, medical images. She's able to take scans of brains and give them to people like you and me, who don't know anything about medical science. We just draw around the lesions and we train her model, and then she makes it competitive like a game, gamefies it, you get more points, but actually, what we're doing is making the world a better place by training her medical imaging database. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> She'll then use that as an OpenFaas function to test real images as part of her postdoctorate. >> So, she's crowd sourcing, wisdom of crowds. >> Alex: Right. >> Collect some intelligence for her research. >> Now, one of the other things that I think's really cool is in the community we built out a project with two 17 year olds. Two 17 year olds built a really cool project, and when I think back to when I was 15, 16, I was playing with something like PHP on Windows Lamp Stack. You know, I had to do everything myself. >> John: Yeah. >> They got, like, this scaffolding built up and they could just go to the tenth story and just keep adding on. >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> And they didn't have to worry about managing this infrastructure at all. >> Or architecture, foundation architecture. >> Alex: Right, right. >> Yeah, and that's exactly the reason why you want to do that. >> So, they wrote some small blocks of Python that we found this machine learning code that could convert a black and white image to color, wrapped it in a box and said, "There's a function," then dropped it into OpenFaas and started feeding tweets in, and that was pretty much it. >> John: Yeah. >> Now we have @ColorizeBot, a bit of a strange spelling but you'll find it on Twitter, and it's been in Le Monde newspaper, all round the world. It was pronounced at CubeCon as well, and it's just a super interesting way of showing how you can take something very complex, right, and democratize it. >> Yeah, we'd love to get those people working for theCUBE and put the little cube box and throw all the tweets in there. >> Alex: Right, yeah. >> Alex, thanks for coming on, congratulations. What's next on your project, tell us what's going on, what's next for you, what are you guys conquering next? >> So, I'm really focused on growing the team and community. We've got an open recruitment position open right now and a small team that's building internally. I think the more people we can get contributing on a regular basis the more support there's going to be for the community, the more people are going to want to use this Actually had 26 people join a call last week. "How to contribute to OpenFaas," that was the name of it. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> Around the world, and the best part for me was where we got to the testimonies and I had people just sharing their tips and experiences. How rewarding it is to contribute something bigger, something that you as a developer will actually want to use. >> Yeah, and the value opportunities, to extract value out of the group-- >> Yeah. >> It's phenomenal, functions as a service. Super relevant in cloud and devops as the middleware, if you want to call it that, expands more capabilities in devops are coming. It's theCUBE coverage here at DevNet Create. We'll be back with more live coverage here in Silicon Valley in Mountain View, California, after this short break. (techy music playing)

>> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. It's theCUBE covering DevNet Create 2018, brought to you by Cisco. (techy music playing) >> Hello, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Silicon Valley. We're in Mountain View, California, for Cisco's DevNet Create. I'm here with Lauren Cooney, our analyst here with Wikibon, of course. Our next guest is Monica Houston, director of Hackster Live, Hackster IO, Hackster.io, open source hardware, really kind of creating a great community model. Really started from a great idea. Great to have you, thanks for coming, joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> So, we're here at Cisco Live, so no better place to talk about hardware and software coming together, but first talk about how Hackster started, how it grew, where it is now today. >> Okay, so Hackster got started about four years ago here in San Francisco. The founders, Adam and Ben, they said they wanted to make a community for people that were interested in building open source hardware. Adam had actually come from starting his own hardware startup and realized that there were very few resources for people like him that wanted to build electronics, and so started a community. I got involved, started... We actually bought a DeLorean, drove it around the country and did hardware hack-a-thons in 12 different cities in the US. >> And so where's it today in terms of numbers, community members, and you're based in Seattle, is that right? >> I'm in Seattle. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> So, what's the community look like, what's the numbers look like? >> There are half a million people on our site and 15,000 open source projects. >> John: Wow, awesome. >> Yeah. >> That is totally awesome, what projects do you see being the most popular on your site? >> Lots of home automation, home automation's a really popular topic. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> We also get a lot of some pretty cool, like, music synthesizers, amplifiers. All kinds of stuff, yeah. >> That's great, now, say I'm like a... I, you know, have coded before but I'm not necessarily truly a developer. Like I'm a moonlighter, per se. >> Monica: Sure. (laughing) >> How could I get involved in this? >> Oh, man, there's tons of resources. So, actually on our site you can sort by difficulty. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> So, if you want to find some beginner projects you can sort by difficulty and find only beginner projects. Also we have tutorials, so tutorials, getting started projects. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> Like, so you buy an Arduino or you buy a particle board and you want to learn how to use it you can search for a getting started project on the site. >> Lauren: That's great. >> Yeah. >> How are you, like... So, you're at DevNet Create-- >> Monica: Yeah. >> With Cisco and what are you doing here? Like, what are you talking about, what are you really interested in? >> So, I have a project called Breadboard to PCB. I'm actually... So, I was a front-end web developer and then I got into all this, so I'm fairly new to it as well. I've been doing it for about six years. I'm not an electrical engineer. (laughing) I have to tell myself, but I'm doing a project called Breadboard to PCB. I made a PCB last year, sort of taught myself how to do that and realized it's actually not that hard and I want to spread that around to people and make them realize that they can build their own PCBs, too. >> That's terrific, that's awesome. Are you and Cisco, DevNet looking to share content or anything like that that might be cool? >> Yes, definitely. (laughing) >> Lauren: Okay. >> Yeah. >> All right, and is there any more you can tell us about that or is that still in the works? >> Still in the works, yeah, we offer... So, we have all these different partners, like Microsoft, Intel, hopefully Cisco as well-- >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> That do, they have, their hub is hosted on our site and people share their projects there with full instructions of a template. We actually go through and make sure everyone shares their code and their schematics. So, they're very well put together projects. >> Lauren: Great. >> Talk about some of the most exciting things you worked on, because one of the things I love about the open source culture is the creativity kind of comes out of nowhere. (laughing) We were just talking, before you came out, about my son, how he's been hacking his own thing. With this culture now you have so much online information. You go to YouTube, there's always a how-to. These communities have great resources. You guys got a robust community. So, there's always that natural, organic, "Whoa, look what this person did." >> Monica: Yeah. >> Can you share some stories around some killer things that happened. Not "killer," good things or just some things that are just creatively cool that you never would've thought would happen. >> Oh, man, so Allen Pan is a maker, I think he's based in LA. He has a YouTube channel, Allen Pan, and he did this really cool... I guess The Last Airbender is a popular movie and he did this flame activated, or punch activated flamethrower on his wrist. So, you try this at home. (laughing) Might be a little dangerous. >> What's his YouTube channel? >> I believe it's Allen Pan, is his name. >> So, there's some creative stuff, so people just tinkering around but there's also some serious hardware engineers. >> Monica: Mm-hmm. >> Any businesses starting out of this? Have you seen any, like, good ventures emerge? >> There's been a few things that I forgot about. There was a really cool watch that was Kickstarted that if you're a cyclist you can wear it and it tells you, like, which way to turn based on your GPS. >> John: Mm-hmm. >> There was some really nice Bluetooth, very elegant, like, Bluetooth controlled lights, that with different colors those are nice, yeah. >> So, what are some of the things you guys are doing in the community that you think's notable that you could share, people might be interested and like, how do you guys organize? There's some things that you guys do differently. What are some of the community activities that, you know, are standard. You know, the normal thing, you have meetups and whatnot, but like, how do you guys run your community, what are some of your guiding principles. Can you share how things work? >> So, we are always open, so you can go to our site and there's no, you know, there's no pay wall or barrier to view all of our content because our content comes from our community, and like, they're the ones that are... We're encouraging them to really document their work. Also, yeah, so we do hardware hack-a-thons where we try to make sure-- >> John: Yeah. >> Everyone's very... We're very beginner friendly, I guess. That's one of our goals is to make sure that people are coming from all different... You know, it's the artists that are making cool projects and-- >> So, when new people come in-- >> Mm-hmm. >> They get welcome letter, kind of community email haze or chat, all that stuff going on, all that's in place. >> We have a news feed, we have discussion, comments on the project that we moderate a bit, so yeah. >> So, Hackster.io. >> Hackster.io, yeah. >> All right, what's the coolest thing you guys are doing right now that you think we should know about? >> So, sort of related, actually this weekend I was at a workshop to learn how to make my own fire projects. (laughing) I like fire, (laughing) yeah. >> John: A pyromaniac community. I want the flamethrower fist thing. >> Yeah, I know. (laughing) >> Lauren: Over here is, yeah. >> I'm instantly like maybe on YouTube or something, I want that. That's a great party trick. >> I think it's great. >> Until something lights up. >> Right. (laughing) >> All right, so what are you doing here at Cisco? What's the focus here, obviously great culture they're building here. Very developer, not a lot of Cisco Kool-Aid being injected here, but much more of an outreach for Cisco, what's your focus here? >> This is all new for me, actually. So, I did not realize that this has got such a huge developer community and was really involved and like, this is a great conference. >> Lauren: That's true. >> People are so nice. >> Yeah, and the internet of things is a big hardware-- >> Yeah. >> Focused market. >> Yes, yeah. >> So, they've got all the software there. >> It's only getting bigger, yeah. >> Cool. >> Mm-hmm. >> Cool, all right, so what's new in Seattle? Give us an update on what you're doing. >> All right, it's still raining there. (laughing) >> That is actually very good to know. (laughing) >> You have Microsoft up there. >> Monica: Yeah. >> You have Amazon. >> Monica: Mm-hmm. >> University of Washington, so you have kind of a nice, kind of geek culture developing up there. So, yeah, good open source hardware vibe up there? >> Yeah. >> What's the community like in Seattle? >> Yeah, I run meetups, there's lots of people that come out to different hardware meetups and there are, like, a lot of new, cool hardware startups. Like for instance, Glowforge is a laser cutter that was Kickstarted recently. >> Lauren: Yep. >> There's some other really neat... DiGo is a home automation light switch. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> Yeah, there's some pretty cool startups. >> So, if someone wants to join your community, what would you say to them if they're watching this video right now, hey. What are they, what's it like to join, what are they going to be... What's the vibe like, what are some of the things that are involved? What's the value for someone watching, that might want to join this, totally into tinkering with hardware? >> One thing is a great format to share your projects, and also to document your projects. Documentation is really important and I like to say that a project doesn't exist unless it's documented. (laughing) >> John: Yeah. >> So, documenting it and then we'll boost your project, we'll share it on our social media and it'll get lots of views. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's an open, it's a nerd culture. I mean, by the way, robotics is the hottest thing going on. You can't get involved, a lot of the younger generation are absolutely enamored with robotics, just at all levels. From, you know, you've got drones, which is super cool, right. Then you've got all the kind of stuff that's, it's all about hardware, hardware. >> Well, this is great, I'm on the site and I'm looking right now at the mind control drone. >> Monica: Oh, yeah. (laughing) >> That is, you know, my question is does that really work? Can I, you know, can I actually do something. You know, take this and learn from the site and actually build that? >> There are, and there are some developer, I guess it's EEG or EKG, EMG is another one, that you can really, you know, you can think left or think right and it will go left or right, it figures it out, yeah. >> That is so cool. >> Are people meeting up on the site and doing work together. Is it like a collaborative kind of hub going on there? >> There are some people that are doing that. Yeah, there was a few people on our site that were doing work on the, what was it... Elon Musk's thing, the... Hyperloop. >> John: Yeah. >> There's, like, the Hyperloop contest, and so a few people on our site were doing some work for that. >> Lauren: That's great. >> So, yeah, people are meeting there, yeah, for sure. >> Monica, great to have you here in theCUBE. Thanks for sharing about Hackster.io. We're going to check it out and thanks for the tip on the YouTube channel. We'll get the fire flamethrower. >> Yeah, make your own flamethrowers. >> John's going to be busy this weekend. (laughing) >> I'm a pyromaniac, I keep playing with matches all the time. So, thanks for coming on, I really appreciate it. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Hackster.io, we are theCUBE here live in Mountain View, California. Cisco DevNet Create, the Computer History Museum. We'll be right back with more after this short break. (techy music playing)

>> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum, in Mountain View, California, it's theCUBE! Covering DevNet Create 2018, brought to you by Cisco. >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive live coverage here in Mountain View, California, the heart of Silicon Valley at the Computer History Museum for Cisco's DevNet Create. I'm here with Lauren Cooney, the analyst, for the Wikibon team and our next guest is I'm proud to have Guy Kawasaki here on theCUBE. Guy is, goes without mentioning, a legend in the industry. Currently, the chief evangelist for Canva author of Art of the Start, a real pioneer in entrepreneurship, tech entrepreneurship, tech evangelism. Guy, great to see you, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Among other things, you've done a lot of amazing things. Thanks for joining us. >> What better place to be. >> The tech culture now is so mainstream. You're seeing Facebook CEO draw in more audience than a Supreme Court justice. >> More people watched the Senate hearings yesterday-- >> He probably has more impact than a Supreme Court justice. >> He's running the world. The tech culture has really grown to be a mainstream...in the early days the computer industry when it was really the beginning of the revolution, the PC revolution, Macintosh and the PC, you were there. So much has happened. I mean, as you look back, I mean looked out at the young guns coming up, what's your view, what's your reaction to all this? You have these (mumbles) moments. >> What's your take on all this? >> I suppose many people would say, we never thought it would get to this point. It's turned destructive and negative and all that. But it's a short snapshot of time and, first of all, can we put the genie back in the bottle? No, so it doesn't really matter. But, all things considered, the democratization of computing, everybody has a computer, whether it's a phone or a computer. The democratization of the transfer of information, obviously some information may be faint, may be not what you like. But would we go back to a time where we send things by fax machines? Not at all, I mean all things considered, >> it's a great time to be alive. >> Democratization goes through these waves, democratization with the PC, democratization with the internet, democratization of web 2.0 and social media. The beginning of social media, about 15 years, maybe 10, whatever way you might want to mark it. And now democratization with data and AI is interesting. So you're having these waves of democratization. It's going to take some time to sort out. I mean, as you look at the tech trends, how do you make sense of it, or what do you get excited about? How do you surf that wave? (chuckling) If you're going to surf the wave, the big wave coming, which some say is block chain and cryptocurrency and decentralization. What's the wave that you're on, that's the question? >> To use a surfing analogy, if we're going to go down that rat hole, a good, experienced surfer knows where to sit, can look out and say, I'll take the fourth wave. And I'll sit in the right place, turn around at the right time, paddle at the right time, you know, all that. And then there's people like me. We sit in the same place, and every 15 minutes, the right wave comes along and catches us. Those are the two theories. >> I think if only predicting tech trends were as easy as predicting surfing. >> Interviewer: Timing's everything. >> Timing is everything, luck is a lot to do with it. We only learn about the Apples and the Googles and the Ciscos and the Facebooks and the Pinterests and the Instagrams. I think you think, well, there are these really smart people and they can predict the trend or cause a trend. I think it's more the game of big numbers where if you have enough surfers in the water, somebody's going to catch a wave. (chuckling) And then you can say, yeah, I knew he was the best surfer. >> But really, right place, right time. >> And you got to know what a wave looks like. >> Guy: Well, yeah. >> You got to be, like, okay, am I in a tide pool >> or am I on a boogie board. >> And to your point, you've got to be in the water. [John] Yeah, yeah. >> You can't be standing on the shore, saying I'm going to catch a wave. You have to be in the water, and if you're in the water, >> nine times out of ten you're going to get crushed. (chuckling) >> If you're not out in front of that next wave, you're driftwood. In surfing, people will jump and try to take your wave, this sounds like the tactic of the whole industry. >> Guy: Exactly, right, right. >> What waves do you see that are coming, in your mind. You've seen a lot of waves in your day. I mean, right now, what wave is exciting you right now. >> If you look at the waves, what's out there? >> What I learn about that is, you can only declare your intelligence and victory after the fact, right. I can tell you the internet of things is big. I can tell you that social media is big. I can tell you that computing is big. Problem is I could tell you that because I know it's big now. Can I tell you what's in the future, no. If I could...first of all I wouldn't tell you. (chuckling) So I think in a rare moment of humility it's the law of big numbers. Infinite monkeys typing at keyboards, somebody's going to come up with Beethoven. >> I want to ask you a question because I get asked this question a lot, Hey, John, you've been around a while. I want to catch that next big wave, I want to be in the next Google, I want to be rich on stock options. (Guy chuckling) I said, a lot of times the best companies where you take the most advantage of is when no one else wants to work there or no one yet knows it. We really can't say, Oh, I'm going to get rich on that company because by that time it's either too late and people are chasing the wrong thing. >> Guy: Absolutely. >> How do you give that same advice to someone? >> Listen, you're talking to a guy who quit Apple twice and turned down Steve once. So how smart could I be? (John chuckling) Now we can say Apple is the most valuable company in the world, you should have stayed there. Well, thank you very much, thanks for tell me now. I think it's really... I don't want to be too dramatic, but I could almost build a case that you should invest in or work for the most dumb-ass idea you heard of. Because at any given point-- >> Airbnb, we're going to rent out mattresses >> and give out cereal. >> Very good example, Airbnb. Let's face it, if somebody told you Airbnb, before there was Airbnb, you would say, So you're telling me that I'm going to rent a room from somebody I met on the internet, and I'm going to sleep in that person's house, hoping he's not a murderer or pedophile. On the flip side, you're saying, I'm going to rent out my room to someone who I hope is not a pedophile or an ax murderer. Or ebay...I'm going to buy this printer from 3000 miles away and I'm going to assume it works. Or I'm going to sell my good printer to someone 3000 miles away and assume that he's not going to say he never got it or that it didn't work and he wants a refund. So if you go down the line of all these ideas, you'd have to say at the time, nobody. Even take an extreme: Zappos. If you told me that women would buy shoes without trying them on, seeing them, smelling them, and touching them, I would tell you you're crazy. You'd buy a book that way. You'd buy a CD that way, you'd buy a DVD. Would you buy shoes, would you buy shoes without trying them on. >> I totally would. (laughing) Now I can say that. >> To Zappos's credit, some of the way it made that work is it offered shipping back for free. So there was really no risk. But I would have been a skeptic about Zappos. >> Well, it was one of those things for me, Zappos, where they shipped in one day so I could get them immediately, try them on and if they didn't work, I could ship them back and get a different size. It was no big deal, it was very low overhead. So that's one of the reasons that that worked. But I think when you mention all of these great things like Ebay and Airbnb, it's really part of the sharing economy with people really wanting to share the goodness of their goods with other people that need them. >> It's just really connecting those folks. >> Places like Oakland and San Francisco, where there are certain streets where you line up and you just get in the next car with a stranger, and you go to San Francisco with them. >> Lauren: Yeah. >> And it's not computerized or anything. It's just trust. >> I did that once and it was frightening. (laughs) You never know who the driver is going to be or how they're going to drive. >> But you did it. >> I did it. >> People do it every day. >> I know. >> I'm amazed. >> I did it once, but... (laughing) >> Let's ask you a question. What's the craziest idea that you've seen that worked and the craziest idea that didn't work. >> Let's start with the easy one. I had a company called garage.com, and we were a venture capitalist investment bank, so we got pitched all the time. One day, a guy comes in and says, I'm going to build... A dirigible hotel over San Francisco. So you stay in the dirigible. Another person said, We're going to build a geodesic dome over Los Angeles. And I can't remember if it was to keep the air pollution in or out. I'll just tell you one really great one. These people were from Seagate so they had Cray, they worked for Seagate. And they say, We have this patent-pending, curb-jumping, patent-pending whatever technology so that if you drop your laptop with your hard disk, the head won't crash into the hard disk and ruin the hard disk. And at the time, this was 15 years ago, that was a great idea, right. It wasn't solid state. Heads crashing into hard disks. >> Moving parts. >> Seagate, so this is a great idea. Every hard disk in every laptop should be like it. So we get in the car, we go to their office, and the receptionist says, Oh, they're running late because they're on the phone with IBM. IBM is really interested in using this technology for the IBM PC laptop. Keep us waiting, keep us waiting. And they get out, and, Yeah, IBM was really, they're so excited, they're ready to move. And I, like, we're really excited. And finally I said, Give me the jist, what is your technology, is it like some special chip that detects gravitational fall, it's too fast, it's got to be hitting the ground so it parks the head because it recognizes motion or whatever. And I swear to God, I swear to God, he brings out this piece of foam and he says this is military spec foam. So we take your hard disk, we put this foam thing around it, and we put it in the laptop. And I swear to God, I was having an out of body experience. >> You're telling me-- >> I drove all the way here-- >> That your proprietary technology is putting foam around the hard disk, and IBM is excited by this foam. So welcome to my life. >> So what are you up to now. Talk about your evangelism. I know you're a (mumbles) Mercedes. You have a bunch of things going on. You've been very prolific in social media. You were on the suggested user list from day one on Twitter. >> No, I wasn't. >> Oh, no, you weren't, that's right. But you have a zillion followers. >> That's why I have never forgiven Twitter for that. >> I thought they put you on. >> Guy: No. >> Okay, I stand corrected. >> You had to be an actress. >> Some tech people got on there, I know. >> Guy: Yeah. >> But I was not on. >> There you go. >> Measly 20,000 or so. But you got a million and a half followers active. You've really been prolific in a good way. (laughing) Engaging with communities. >> Yeah. >> What have you learned and how do you view this next generation of social because you're seeing the Facebooks, you're seeing LinkedIn. There's siloed platforms. Is there hope? What's your take on it, is it going to grow? >> I've come to the point where I always believe things are never as good or as bad as they seem. So I don't think it's as bad as people say. If these social media sites are selling my data, they're going to go broke selling my data. (laughs) I don't know how you could look at my data. First of all, I never look at ads, so go ahead, sell my data. I'm not going to look at the ad anyway. It doesn't matter. I think the ability to spread ideas, arguably good or bad, the ability to spread ideas with social media, all things considered, is better. It's going to be abused and all that. My father was a state senator in Honolulu, and we were into banner ads way before anybody else. Banner was literally a piece of cloth with his name on it that you staple to the side of a building, saying Vote for Duke Kawasaki. That was the nature of banner advertisement back then. Do I think that social media targeting and all that for sales is a good thing? Yes, I do. If you're a real estate broker, and you wanted to reach people who live in Silicon Valley, age 50 to 70, female or male or whatever, in such-and-such an income bracket, how else can you do it but Facebook? >> It's good and bad. >> That's why Facebook is so successful. >> The metadata is all about the clan and the culture, and I think putting ideas out there is a way to send your ideas into the ether, make it happen. So, that's key. Now, we're here at a developer conference, so one of the things that's also a big part of this community is the notion of how open source has become a tier one citizen, and it's really running the world. Which is also grounded in community as well. You have this ethos of community, ethos of software open. >> I believe in open source. I believe that the more intelligent people pounding on your stuff, the better it is. I'm an author, and what I do is, speaking in the sense of open source. So right now I'm about 80% done with my book. I put out a post on social media saying anybody that wants to review my book, test my book, send me your information. So I do this, I cut it off at about 280 people. I send them the Word document, the entire Word document of my book. Does that mean they can take it and publish it in China tomorrow, yes. But, from that, I get hundreds and hundreds of comments. >> John: Wisdom of the crowds, self-editing. >> Yeah, and they point out stuff that I never would have noticed because I'm too close to at this point. So is there a downside, yes. Is there piracy, yes. Arguably, would those pirates have bought the book anyway? No. >> Our content's all free. We're really big in China because they actually take it and translate it in the native language. >> Guy: Which you would never have done. >> With all the jargon, you can't hire a-- >> Guy: You would never have done that. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Guy, great to catch up with you. Thanks for coming on. What are you working on now, you mentioned the book, what's the book about? >> The book is called Wise Guy, and it's a compilation of the stories that have influenced my life. So it's not an auto-biography. It is not a memoir. Have you ever heard of the book Chicken Soup for the Soul? >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> You know, it's inspirational stories. This is miso soup for the soul. (laughing) So I'm working on that, TV evangelism with Canva is just going gangbusters. Brand ambassadors for Mercedes Benz. I'm on the board of directors of a company called Cheeze with a zee. It's an anti-social photo-sharing and vidoo-sharing app. And that's it. >> You've been an inspiration to many, great job of the year has been a big fan of your work. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Really appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Guy Kawasaki here inside theCUBE. We're at Devnet Create. This is Cisco's cloud developer conference. Different from their core Devnet Cisco Networking developer, and this is all about dev ops open source. And this is theCUBE bringing you all the action here in Mountain View, California. We'll be right back with more after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. It's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2018. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. This is theCUBE, live here in Mountain View, California, heart of Silicon Valley for Cisco's DevNet Create. This is their Cloud developer event. It's not the main Cisco DevNet which is more of the Cisco developer, this is much more Cloud Native DevOps. I'm joined with my cohost, Lauren Cooney and our next guest is Christine Yen, who is co-founder and Chief Product Officer of Honeycomb.io. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Great to have an entrepreneur and also Chief Product Officer because you blend in the entrepreneurial zeal, but also you got to build the product in the Cloud Native world. You guys done a few ventures before. First, take a minute and talk about what you guys do, what the company is built on, what's the mission? What's your vision? >> Absolutely, Honeycomb was built, we are an observability platform to help people find the unknown unknowns. Our whole thesis is that the world is getting more complicated. We have microservices and containers, and instead of having five application servers that we treated like pets in the past, we now have 500 containers running that are more like cattle and where any one of them might die at any given time. And we need our tools to be able to support us to figure out how and why. And when something happens, what happened and why, and how do we resolve it? We look around at the landscape and we feel like this dichotomy out there of, we have logging tools and we have metrics tools. And those really evolved from the fact that in 1995, we had to choose between grep or counters. And as technology evolved, those evolved to distribute grep or RDS. And then we have distribute grep with fancy UIs and well, fancy RDS with UIs. And Honeycomb, we were started a couple years ago. We really feel like what if you didn't have to choose? What if technology supported the power of having all the context there the way that you do with logs while still being able to provide instant analytics the way that you have with metrics? >> So the problem that you're solving is one, antiquated methodologies from old architectures and stacks if you will, to helping people save time, with the arcane tools. Is that the main premise? >> We want people to be able to debug their production systems. >> All right, so, beyond that now, the developer that you're targeting, can you take us through a day in the life of where you are helping them, vis a vis the old way? >> Absolutely, so I'll tell a story of when myself and my co-founder, Charity, were working together at PaaS. PaaS, for those who aren't familiar, used to be RD, a backend form of mobile apps. You can think of someone who just wants to build an iOS app, doesn't want to deal with data storage, user records, things like that. And PaaS started in 2011, got bought by Facebook in 2013, spun down very beginning of 2016. And in 2013, when the acquisition happened, we were supporting somewhere on the order of 60,000 different mobile apps. Each one of them could be totally different workload, totally different usage pattern, but any one of them might be experiencing problems. And again, in this old world, this pre-Honeycomb world, we had our top level metrics. We had latency, response, overall throughput, error rates, and we were very proud of them. We were very proud of these big dashboards on the wall that were green. And they were great, except when you had a customer write in being like, "Hey, PaaS is down." And we look at our dashboard we'd be like, "Nope, it's not down. "It must be network issues." >> John: That's on your end. >> Yeah, that's on your end. >> John: Not a good answer. >> Not a good answer, and especially not if that customer was Disney, right? When you're dealing with these high level metrics, and you're processing tens or hundreds of thousands of requests per second, when Disney comes in, they've got eight requests a second and they're seeing all of them fail. Even though those are really important, eight requests per second, you can't tease that out of your graphs. You can't figure out why they're failing, what's going on, how to fix it. You've got to dispatch an engineer to go add a bunch of if app ID equals Disney, track it down, figure out what's going on there. And it takes time. And when we got to Facebook, we were exposed to a type of tool that essentially inspired Honeycomb as it is today that let us capture all this data, capture a bunch of information about everything that was happening down to these eight requests per second. And when a customer complained, we could immediately isolate, oh, this one app, okay let's zoom in. For this one customer, this tiny customer, let's look at their throughput, error rates, latency. Oh, okay. Something looks funny there, let's break down by endpoint for this customer. And it's this iterative fast, highly granular investigation, that is where all of us are approaching today. With our systems getting more complicated you need to be able to isolate. Okay, I don't care about the 200s, I only care about the 500s, and within the 500s, then what's going on? What's going on with this server, with that set of containers? >> So this is basically an issue of data, unstructured data or have the ability to take this data in at the same time with your eye on the prize of instrumentation. And then having the ability to make that addressable and discoverable in real time, is that kind of? >> Yeah, we've been using the term observability to describe this feeling of, I need to be able to find unknown unknowns. And instrumentation is absolutely the tactic to observability of the strategy. It is how people will be able to get information out of their systems in a way that is relevant to their business. A common thing that we'll hear or people will ask, "Oh, can you ingest my nginx logs?" "Can you ingest my SQL logs?" Often, that's a great place to start, but really where are the problems in an application? Where are your problems in the system? Usually it's the places that are custom that the engineers wrote. And tools need to be able to support, providing information, providing graphs, providing analytics in a way that makes it easy for the folks who wrote the code to track down the problem and address them. >> It's a haystack of needles. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> They're all relevant but you don't know which needle you're going to need. >> Exactly. >> So, let me just get this. So I'm ducking out, just trying to understand 'cause this is super important because this is really the key to large scale Cloud ops, what we're talking about here. From a developer standpoint, and we just had a great guest on, talking about testing features and production which is really the important, people want to do that. And then, but for one person, but in production scale, huge problem, opportunity as well. So, if most people think of like, "Oh, I'll just ingest with Splunk," but that's a different, is that different? I mean, 'cause people think of Splunk and they think of Redshift and Kinesis on Amazon, they go, "Okay." Is that the solution? Are you guys different? Are you a tool? How do I understand you guys' context to those known solutions? >> First of all, explain the difference between ourselves and the Redshifts and big queries of the world, and then I'll talk about Splunk. We really view those tools as primarily things built for data scientists. They're in the big data realm, but they are very concerned with being 100% correct. They're concerned with fitting into big data tools and they often have an unfortunate delay in getting data in and making it acquirable. Honeycomb is 100% built for engineers. Engineers of people, the folks who are going to be on the hook for, "Hey, there's downtime, what's going on?" And in-- >> So once business benefits, more data warehouse like. >> Yeah. And what that means is that for Honeycomb, everything is real time. It's real time. We believe in recent data. If you're looking to get query data from a year ago we're not really the thing, but instead of waiting 20 minutes for a query over a huge volume of data, you wait 10 seconds, or it's 3:00 AM and you need to figure out what's happening right now, you can go from query to query, to query, to query, as you come up with hypotheses, validate them or invalidate them, and continue on your investigation path. So that's... >> That makes sense. >> Yeah. >> So data wrangling, doing queries, business intelligence, insights as a service, that's all that? >> Yeah. We almost, we played with and tossed the tagline BI for systems because we want that BI mentality of what's going on, let me investigate. But for the folks who need answers now, an approximate answer now is miles better than a perfect one-- >> And you can't keep large customers waiting, right? At the end of the day, you can't keep the large customers waiting. >> Well, it's also so complicated. The edge is very robust and diverse now. I mean, no-js is a lot of IO going on for instance. So let's just take an example. I had developer talking the other day with me about no-js. It's like, oh, someone's complaining but they're using Firefox. It's like, okay, different memory configuration. So the developer had to debug because the complaints were coming in. Everyone else was fine, but the one guy is complaining because he's on Firefox. Well, how many tabs does he have open? What's the memory look like? So like, this a weird thing, I mean, that's just a weird example, but that's just the kinds of diverse things that developers have to get on. And then where do they start? I mean. >> Absolutely. So, there's something we ran into or we saw our developers run into all the time at PaaS, right? These are mobile developers. They have to worry about not only which version of the app it is, they have to worry about which version of the app, using which version of RSDK on which version of the operating system, where any kind of strange combination of these could result in some terrible user experience. And these are things that don't really work well if you're relying on pre-aggregated 10 series system, like the evolution of the RDS, I mentioned. And for folks who are trying to address this, something like Splunk, these logging tools, frankly, a lot of these tools are built on storage engines that are intended for full text search. They're unstructured text, you're grepping over them, and then you're build indices and structure on top of that. >> There's some lag involved too in that. >> There's so much lag involved. And there's almost this negative feedback loop built in where if you want to add more data, if on each log line you want to start tracking browser user agent, you're going to incur not only extra storage costs, you're going to incur extra read time costs because you're reading that more data, even if you're don't even care about that on those queries. And you're probably incurring cost on the right time to maintain these indices. Honeycomb, we're a column store through and through. We do not care about your unstructured text logs, we really don't want them. We want you to structure your data-- >> John: Did you guys write your own column store or is that? >> We did write our own column store because ultimately there's nothing off the shelf that gave us the speed that we wanted. We wanted to be able to, Hey, sending us data blogs with 20, 50, 200 keys. But if you're running analysis and all you care about is a simple filter and account, you shouldn't have to pull in all this-- >> To become sort of like Ferrari, if you customize, it's really purpose built, is that what you guys did? >> That is. >> So talk about the dynamic, because now you're dealing with things like, I mean, I had a conversation with someone who's looking at say blockchain, where there's some costs involved, obviously writing to the blockchain. And this is not like a crypto thing it's more of a supply chain thing. They want visibility into latency and things of that nature. Does this sounds like you would fit there as a potential use case? Is that something that you guys thought of at all? >> It could absolutely be. I'm actually not super familiar with the blockchain or blockchain based applications but ultimately Honeycomb is intended for you to be able to answer questions about your system in a way that tends to stymie existing tools. So we see lots of people come to us from strange use cases who just want to be able to instrument, "Hey I have this custom logic. "I want to be able to look at what it's doing." And when a customer complains and my graphs are fine or when my graphs are complaining, being able to go in and figure out why. >> Take a minute to talk about the company you founded. How many employees funding, if you can talk about it. And use case customers you have now. And how do you guys engage? The service, is it, do I download code? Is it SaaS? I mean, you got all this great tech. What's the value proposition? >> I think I'll answer this-- >> John: Company first. >> All right. >> John: Status of the company. >> Sure. Honeycomb is about 25 people, 30 people. We raised a series A in January. We are about two and a half years old and we are very much SaaS of the future. We're very opinionated about a number of things and how we want customers to interact with us. So, we are SaaS only. We do offer a secure proxy option for folks who have PII concerns. We only take structured data. So, at our API, you can use whatever you want to slurp data from your system. But at our API, we want JSON. We do offer a wide variety of integrations, connectors, SDKs, to help you structure that data. But ultimately-- >> Do you provide SDKs to your customers? >> We do. So that if they want to instrument their application, we just have the niceties around like batching and doing things asynchronously so it doesn't block their application. But ultimately, so we try to meet folks where they're at, but it's 2016, it was 2017, 2018-- >> You have a hardened API, API pretty much defines your service from an inbound standpoint. Prices, cost, how does someone engage with you guys? When does someone know to engage? Where's the smoke signals? When is the house on fire? Is it like people are standing around? What's the problem? When does someone know to call you guys up at? >> People know to call us when they're having production problems that they can't solve. When it takes them way too long to go from there's an alert that went off or a customer complaint, to, "Oh, I found the problem, I can address it." We price based on storage. So we are a bunch of engineers, we try to keep the business side as simple as possible for better, for worse. And so, the more data you send us, the more it'll cost. If you want a lot of data, but stored for a short period of time, that will cost less than a lot of data stored for a long period of time. One of the things that we, another one of the approaches that is possibly more common in the big data world and less in the monitoring world is we talk a lot about sampling. Sampling as a way to control those costs. Say you are, Facebook, again, I'll return to that example. Facebook knew that in this world where lots and lots of things can go wrong at any point in time, you need to be able to store the actual context of a given event happening. Some unit of work, you want to keep track of all the pieces of metadata that make that piece of work unique. But at Facebook scale, you can't store every single one of them. So, all right, you start to develop these heuristics. What things are more interesting than others? Errors are probably more interesting than 200 okays. Okay. So we'll keep track of most errors, we'll store 1% of successful requests. Okay. Well, within that, what about errors? Okay. Well, things that time out are maybe more interesting than things that are permissioning errors. And you start to develop this sampling scheme that essentially maps to the interesting ness of the traffic that's flowing through your system. To throw out some numbers, I think-- >> Machine learning is perfect for that too. They can then use the sampling. >> Yeah. There's definitely some learning that can happen to determine what things should be dropped on the ground, what requests are perfectly representative of a large swath of things. And Instagram, used a tool like this inside Facebook. They stored something like 1/10 of a percent or a 1/100 of a percent of their requests. 'Cause simply, that was enough to give them a sketch of what representative traffic, what's going wrong, or what's weird that, and is worth digging into. >> Final question. What's your priorities for the product roadmap? What are you guys focused on now? Get some fresh funding, that's great. So expand the team, hiring probably. Like product, what's the focus on the product? >> Focus on the product is making this mindset of observability accessible to software engineers. Right, we're entering this world where more and more, it's the software engineers deploying their code, pushing things out in containers. And they're going to need to also develop this sense of, "Okay, well, how do I make sure "something's working in production? "How do I make sure something keeps working? "And how do I think about correctness "in this world where it's not just my component, "it's my component talking to these other folks' pieces?" We believe really strongly that the era of this single person in a room keeping everything up, is outdated. It's teams now, it's on call rotations. It's handing off the baton and sharing knowledge. One of the things that we're really trying to build into the product, that we're hoping that this is the year that we can really deliver on this, is this feeling of, I might not be the best debugger on the team or I might not be the best person, best constructor of graphs on the team, and John, you might be. But how can a tool help me as a new person on a team, learn from what you've done? How can a tool help me be like, Oh man, last week when John was on call, he ran into something around my SQL also. History doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. So how can I learn from the sequence of those things-- >> John: Something an expert system. >> Yeah. Like how can we help build experts? How can we raise entire teams to the level of the best debugger? >> And that's the beautiful thing with metadata, metadata is a wonderful thing. 'Cause Jeff Jonas said on the, he was a Cube alumni, entrepreneur, famous data entrepreneur, observation space is super critical for understanding how to make AI work. And that's to your point, having observation data, super important. And of course our observation space is all things. Here at DevNet Create, Christine, thanks for coming on theCUBE, spending the time. >> Thank you. >> Fascinating story, great new venture. Congratulations. >> Christine: Thank you. >> And tackling the world of making developers more productive in real time in production. Really making an impact to coders and sharing and learning. Here in theCUBE, we're doing our share, live coverage here in Mountain View, DevNet Create. We'll be back with more after this short break. (gentle music)

>> Narrator: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. It's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2018, brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone, live here in Silicon Valley in Mountain View, California, it's theCUBE coverage of DevNet Create. This is Cisco's cloud developer, DevOps, cloud native developer environment. This is different from DevNet, that's their Cisco developer conference, so we're here covering it. This is where all the action in Kubernetes, DevOps, and a lot more. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Lauren Cooney. Our next guest is Heidi Waterhouse, Developer Advocate for Launch Darkly. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Hi, thank you! I'm glad to be here. >> Thanks for coming on. So first of all, take a minute to talk about what you guys do as a company, then we'll talk about some specific DevOps questions that we have for you. >> Excellent. So, what we do as a company is, I summarize it as feature flags as a service. We are giving people a control surface to be able to deploy their code safely in the daytime, so nobody has to stay up on a deploy bridge, and then control who sees it very precisely, and roll out individually or do work to do intricate testing with user groups or we sometimes use it, imagine if sales could turn on a feature, a test feature for one client without needing to go to development and get approval for all of that. So it gives us the ability to let people be richer in their expression of software. >> So is it software as a service? Is it cloud-based? >> Yes >> It is 100 percent cloud-based. >> So, subscriptions, free? >> We charge by developer seat, and all we are saying is, go ahead and use it, we have the capacity to handle it. We're handling about 25 billion flags a day right now. >> So it's a great tool, so it's not like a big over the top feature cost. >> Oh, no. >> It's like nice lightweight usability, the more you use it, the better utility. >> Yeah, it's very light. It's a couple SDKs and then a code snippet about this long, depending on your language. The Java one's a little longer. And what it gives people is the ability to do feature flags, which lots of people are already doing, in a manageable way, with a structured API, so that people can keep track of what's happening. And make sure that they are only allowing the right people to turn flags on, because you don't want everybody to be able to hit the kill switch. You want a kill switch on the feature if it starts spitting out garbage, but you don't want it to be universally accessible. >> I think you also want it to be consistent, right? In that environment and those environments, where the developers are trying to understand what that looks like. >> Right, and auditable. We give you the ability to see every change that's happened to a flag and who made it. >> So DevOps is going on almost a 10-year run now. If you look back on the original kind of DevOps ethos, really was kind of coming in late in the 2007 time frame, the real hardcore DevOps were building their own stuff. So we're 10 years into what I would call the true DevOps, maybe earlier. You could argue a little bit earlier when Amazon hit the table, but can you tell about the kinds of things that you guys are doing is really large DevOps environments, where you want agility, you want real-time, push code all the time, but be reliable. This is more of a mature-looking dev team. How has that evolved there? What are some of the key things? This is kind of probably an indicator, of where everything else is going. What are some of the developer concerns? Is it A/B testing? That's kind of a trivial example, but I often imagine all kinds of new software methodologies are coming out of this. What are you seeing? >> So what we're seeing is, for 20 years, we've been teaching and preaching branch-based development. But it turns out the very largest software organizations, like Google, are doing trunk-based development, because branches are just a way to cry. Once you try and merge something back in, you find out that you have conflicts, and then you have to have more discussions about who gets cherry-picked, and it's catastrophic. I have said for a long time that maybe my second career is just going to be a trauma therapist, specializing in GitHub, and I think I can make money at that. So we have this inherent belief that branches are just how we code, and what we've been seeing is, people are pulling back more and more into trunk-based development, so that everybody is aware of what's going on all the time, and you can just have one through-line in your code and not have people spoiling off into branches that are unproductive. >> And how you do you manage that? So your tool manages that, or is it more of a philosophy discipline? >> No, it is a side effect of our tool, because the reason we have branches is because we don't want to show people our work in process. But if you can hide it behind a feature flag, and only deploy it, only activate it when you're ready, it gives you a good chance to test it in production. There's nothing that says you can't build your feature, test it in production at full scale, with all your microservices distributed, all of the data flow, everything, but you're the only one who sees it. And being able to target that is really important. It's going to give you a lot of capacity to test things. >> Yeah, and we've seen that, too, all the time, where people are saying, "Hey, you know what, I want to test it before I invest in it." That's a big thing. >> Yeah, it is. And internally being able to test things is going to give you a lot of capacity. So, we find that it is not our, we're not enforcing anything on anyone. That's not our role or our goal. What we're trying to do is offer people a tool that helps facilitate the best of what they're doing. >> Yeah, and when you look at developer tools, I think that's absolutely critical in bringing that to the table for different environments and things along those lines. >> And one of those things I was going to ask you is, when you look at the developer environment, is the developer environments, in your mind, in a spot where people can do this? In other words, will they be able to pull it off in open source, because if someone's got all this open source information going on, let's just say hypothetically, they got the trunk thing going on, but a lot of open source is driving this, so there's some discipline involved, there's some psychology, counseling, as you mentioned, so how do you pull it off? What's the best use case? >> You have to make it advantageous. You have to make it work for them, because people aren't going to do things that don't work for them. I teach a workshop, I was doing a workshop here about documentation, and people were like, "How do you get developers to document?" I'm like, "Well, have you ever fired a developer "for not documenting something?" "Have you ever given them a raise for documenting something? "If you haven't, you don't actually care about them "doing documentation." In the same way, moving culture means that we have to incentivize doing the right thing. We have to make the barrier to entry low, and we have to make it possible for people to just do the right thing more easily than the wrong thing. >> The other thing that I was thinking about, too, is, this is just kind of my personal opinion, 'cause the things you mentioned are really important, and that is that, doing testing at scale is a big deal, because if you think about all the wasted time that goes into, just the politics, whether it's politics or lobbying to get something in, a feature built, I mean, you're talking about months, weeks, I mean, it's a nightmare. So imagine a capability to say, and this is the promise of DevOps, this is ultimately why this is so awesome. >> So, this is like, move fast and don't break things very much. And I like to think of, every plane you get on is a little bit broken, it has an error budget, and if it exceeds the error budget in any direction, even if it's like an overhead latch bin, they ground the plane. But our organizations also need to be that resilient. We need to have that flexibility, and I think the way we can do that is by being able to instrument our features and turn them off if they're causing problems, or turn them down if we're getting flooded, or whatever it is we need to do, we need to do it at a finer grain than we've currently been doing. I don't ever want to have blackouts, like maybe a brownout. >> And Heidi, the other thing I think is interesting with what you guys are doing is that, this whole event here at DevNet Create, and all the other events that are, I call cutting edge developer events, the vendors who sell stuff, like Cisco, whether they're big, and new vendors, the old model of preaching and jamming solutions down your throat is not the way it works anymore. All the enablements has to be there, but the co-creations happening, really from the people who are building their own stuff, so that's kind of going to have to be a dynamic, creative environment, so you need to have a really pure DevOps environment. Well, not pure DevOps, I mean an environment that's going to be facilitating creativity, risk-taking, >> Yes. >> experimentation, building concepts, not, "Oh, I'm constrained, because this psychologically doesn't support," >> Yeah, it's hard to do advanced thinking when you are not psychologically safe. But I do think that you don't have to be operating in the purest of DevOps in order to be taking in some of these tools and techniques and using them effectively. I think there are a lot of people who have, for instance, taken up blameless post-mortems. Even if they're not doing anything else in the DevOps sphere, they're like, "Oh, wait, we could talk about "root causes that weren't, like people screwed up," and I want us to say whatever you can do that's going to improve your environment. I don't want people to feel like they have to absolutely transform everything, because that's too big an ask. >> Yeah, it's disruptive, too, to operations. You want to be just enough disruptive. Alright, I want to get your thoughts on something that I've been thinking about for a while, been talking about on theCUBE, and that is, I come from the old, when I was growing into the business, it was all waterfall-based software development, Agile comes along and it de-risks everything, because the old days was you created a product, you crafted it, you shipped it and you don't know if it was going to work or not, right? And you did QA, all that, you prayed. Now, with Agile, that got de-risked, so you, you're shipping code, you're iterating, but I'm arguing that the craftmanship has kind of gone out of it, because you're constantly programming, and so, that's kind of my opinion. Some people will debate that, but, now we're seeing a move towards, with the Agile Methodology, which I love, and a role of craftmanship, where cloud is kind of going to the next level, you're starting to see people think about crafting the product. So, as Agile goes to the next level, what's your opinion, view, of crafting process, now the user experience has gone beyond just look and feel and being good, mission-based applications, you're seeing new kinds of psychology of how people use things. So diversity becomes important, but the role of crafting and the methodology, is there a spot for that? How does that fit in? I mean, if you're constantly shipping code, push, push, push, are you crafting it? Is there, what do think, is there an art? Where's the artistry of it? >> Where is the artistry? Well, artistry isn't replicable. So this is sort of a problem, because what we really want is consistency. So I think eventually we'll become sort of like novelty ice cube molds. There's somebody who carves the original novelty ice cube mold, and then we all use it to make novelty ice cubes that fill our heart with delight. There is an artistry, but we're going to have to pay people to do it, and currently, we're only paying them to cool our drinks. And until we really make some time to say, "It is saving me time, it is saving me money "to have a well-crafted product," we're not going to change. And I think that's an interesting thing about serverless and function as a service, is it really pays to have a super well-constructed system. Those microseconds do count there, in a way that they haven't in the age of eternal storage and basically all the bandwidth we can consume. And I'd like to see that applied backward toward people who have very low bandwidth. I would love it if one day a month, everybody dialed down their corporate internet to the speed that rural America is getting, and see how they feel about their apps then, because there's a lot of people out there who do not have our big fat pipes. >> And also outside of the United States, too. Again, I'm not saying that there's not good software. I'm just kind of seeing a trend where, certainly I have seen this in DC and outside of the US, where mission-driven enterprises have completely different criteria for the product. And so I'm just trying to, I'm seeing some early signals around that the software methodology might, not shift, but it just feels like it's some action there, and I always kind of keep an eye on that. >> So the thing that I think is going to happen, and this is my weird futurist hat, is, I think we are going to have more and more modular, snap-together assemblies, and the product manager is going to rise from the ash heap and be the person who says, "Look, these are all the things that we need to assemble. "Please go find the parts, "so that we can build this that we want," in a way that we haven't prioritized in a realm where we're like, "Well, developers tell me how to do this." >> So componentized feature. >> Yeah, a componentized feature, I see us really moving strongly toward that. I think that's a lot of what we're doing with serverless, and software as a service is like, "Why build it yourself if somebody has already done it?" Like, "Please don't roll your own." Don't roll your own authentication, don't roll your own LDAP. It's a solved problem. Buy it and snap it together in a way that serves your customer. >> Jim Zemlin said this at the Open Source Summit in LA last year, he called it the open source sandwich, only 10% of the solutions are a unique IP, 90% of it is the bread that's from open source. So, to your point, this has already kind of going there, the exponential growth in open source is becoming significant. So with that in mind, that's going to play a part in that futuristic view, it's happening now. Your thoughts on open source, you mentioned that you could be a crisis counselor (laughing), a therapist, or whatever, I mean, there's a lot going on that's now tier one, it's multi-generational now, it's not the old days, renegade second-tier citizen, open source is powering the world. Your thoughts on the current state of open source? >> I think open source is a fascinating example of doing what we need and how it helps other people. And so, almost all open source projects, even now, start with personal pain. And then we expand them to other people. And I would like us to remember that the reason it's open is because we care about other people's pain, and it's really easy as we corporatize open source to forget that that's where we came from. >> And it's community-driven, and it's done in the open. >> Yeah, exactly, and revealing everything that we're doing is an excellent value, even if we're not necessarily licensing it. You can go and look at all of Launch Darkly's APIs. We have them out there, but we're not an open source company, we're just-- >> Transparent. >> Those are values that we have, that we want to be able, we want people to trust us, so we're going to show them. >> Well, congratulations, it's great to have you on. Great conversation. >> Thank you! >> Love the futuristic view, riffing on some concepts we've been thinking about, also. Got a great service, making possible to operate at scale, get new features tested and fire those capabilities. Appreciate it. >> Alright! >> Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you! >> Thanks! >> We're here at DevNet Create, Cisco's cloud DevOps developer get-together. I'm John Furrier. We'll be back with more coverage after this short break.

>> Narrator: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountainview, California, it's theCUBE. Covering DevNet Create 2018. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back, everyone, we're here live with theCUBE in Mountainview, California, heart of Silicon Valley, for live coverage of theCUBE with Devnet Create, Cisco's developer conference for cloud-native and all things really DevOps. This is not the core DevNet normal Cisco development world. It's really more of the forward, progressive view of cloud computing. Cisco has their own Devnet networking development conference. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney. Next guest is Jared Rhodes. He's an MVP from Azure, with QiMata, that's his company there. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for joining us. >> Good to be here. So you're here to learn Cisco. Yeah, you know Microsoft, kind of bring it together. Cloud really has brought together a whole other level. You know, speed, agility, all that good stuff. But when you start getting into like microservices, Qiber, Netease, it really is an exciting times, so I want to get your perspective as someone coming in, learning cisco, what's on your mind, obviously your hands are involved in the Microsoft side. What are some of the things you're looking at? >> So for me personally, my focus is a lot on, I call it cloud mobile and edge. So I look at cloud computing, edge computing and mobile computing. And that edge and mobile space is where I'm looking to really if see the Cisco products have a lot of use for me. So we have clients, let's take some industries where things don't, I won't say don't move as fast, but they want to. So, oil and gas, right? Oil and gas you got pipelines running all over the U.S., and they put the oil and gas pipelines down sometime in the 80's, and liquid gold actually flows through oil pipelines. So they don't shut them down, they don't change them, they don't touch them, until now. Now they need that innovation, they need that knowledge coming off the pipeline all the time. So, I'm looking for Cisco to have that, for me personally, I'm looking for Cisco to have that technology to bridge that gap of taking that physical and helping me bridge it to the digital into the cloud. >> And what specific things about a network edge or gates that are good for you but also are blockers, where are the, where's the pros and cons of the Edge right now? You look at I O T, for instance, What are the challenges and what are the opportunities? >> The challenges and opportunities, so, getting started for a lot of people is tough. Which, when you're trying to building out a project team, you know, that can make it tough. I mean, if it's a new space, there's not a lot of people in it, and if you got to hire for it, you got to find somebody so you either train 'em, or you find something you can buy off the shelf to get everyone started. What was the other part of the question? >> The opportunities and challenges. It is technical? Is it business? Is it more? >> It's all of the above. >> They laid pipeline, they had connectivity, power >> They have, so it's a mixed bag. When you roll out something like a pipeline, it's so expensive, so they'll actually just roll fiber right along with the pipeline. Even back in the day when they didn't know they would need fiber, but also it's a fiber line that sat out for 30 years, so someone came along with a dump truck and ran right over it, and cut it in half, and then they haven't looked to fix it because they never did anything with it. But they also don't what they don't know. So, you know if we talk about the amazing Edge capabilities using Cisco and Microsoft, we can do crazy things to where we can take pressure changes throughout the pipeline to do preventative maintenance so that we can see, hey we've got an air gap problem here and we can go ahead and fix it before there's anything that would cause them loss or government interference in moving that product. So, they don't know that that exists. They don't have an idea that this is available to me, or that someone can provide this. We have one case where someone took a drone and they would just fly the drone over eight hours of pipeline and try to check for any defects. And until they see that in action, to them, they just don't know it exists. So it is business and the opportunity is showing them this and helping them integrate into their systems. >> That's great, and I think you talked about Edge too, Can you talk a little bit about some of those use cases? >> Sure. So, let's say that we have an oil pump, and that if there's a sudden pressure drop, we got a nice explosion, oil goes everywhere, no one's happy, right? So if I want to take that rating, we got two things we need to run on the Edge: one is, oil pipelines, oil pumps, don't really go where people are, so they don't really run network cables out to the oil pumps. And right now, one of our clients, they have an old RF tower, so they actually have fiber, satellite, and an RF tower, make sure they've covered everything, and well then one day someone cut the fiber line while there were clouds overhead, so we had to use the old radio tower. So, one problem is you have to use the, one problem that Edge solves by being able to move the logic that you run in the cloud to the Edge, one problem that it solves is just that if, I mean, if clouds can take out my infrastructure, I don't have good infrastructure, so having that in place running on the Edge, or I shouldn't say infrastructure, I should say solution, if my solution can be taken down by some clouds coming in, it's not a good solution. So, having it run on the Edge instead of in the cloud means that we can do the pressure sensing for the oil pump and the shutdowns locally. Another problem that is solves is, even if I do have my RF backup, there's a latency thing going on there, where it could be really slow, and if it misses that windows to shut down the oil pump, again, it's just a bad solution, so the Edge platforms really help us when we need things now. And I use the oil pipeline, but my actual client, what they're doing, is they're doing driverless cars. They're getting into that space, and you can't, if someone runs out in front of your car, I can't send it up to the cloud to run it through some data process. It needs to know it now. >> Tell me a little bit about the company you guys do. What kind of engagements do you have? Is it more consulting, you writing any code, is it cloud? >> The one I run is, it's a consulting firm, so we do custom solutions. Our current engagements are, one is security systems, it's a nice company called Tellular. They got into the market and made all their money back in the day when landlines went away. >> Lauren: Oh, yeah >> So they, you pay a million dollars for a security system, and all of the sudden it runs on a landline, can't run without it, do you get a new security system? No. You go ahead and you buy somebody who lets you plug into the wall, and so they made a lot of money on that back in the day, and they've been slowly but surely staying in the industry doing upgrades to security systems, cameras, everything, so that's one of our clients. Another one is the one I was talking about, MetroTech, they do multiple things in the driverless vehicle space. They do traffic analysis, LIDAR detection, they actually take the old, you remember the traffic cams that everyone hated? If you got too far into the intersection it would send you a ticket automatically, >> Unless you go like this >> Right! So, a lot of those cameras actually still exist after the politicians had to pull 'em back, and so they're retrofitting those cameras so they can actually detect traffic in the intersection, is there a crash, do we need to have emergency responders and that kind of stuff. And then our final engagement is with a company that does another set of security systems for, they're called Rin Solutions, they do security systems for big box stores, Wal Mart, Target, they do things that I wouldn't even think of in those kinds of stores to get analytics and to keep stuff from walking away. >> Yeah, I mean they're hardcore in the analytics. Talk about architecture. I mean in the old days, you had a web server, you had middleware, you have storage and compute, application front end, now with cloud, you have a lot of more, opportunity, but also architecture's changing. You got on-premise concerns, whether it's security, how you manage cloud and Edge. Anything that you're seeing that you can share in terms of success, approaches, general rules of thumb? >> It's made things easier. So, one of the holy grails in architecture years ago was an event-based architecture systems, so, if you think about a lot of the computer processes we have, we really care that something just happened. In an architecture concern. You care something just happened. Someone just logged in, someone just walked past a thing, a system goes down, a system goes up. You just want to know that things happen. And in the cloud, it's actually made that a hundred times easier. Just to detect this thing has happened, but not just this thing has happened, but to expose it to everyone within the organization and then let them do whatever they'd like to. So, everything from a systems is up to hired a new employee and they're in the system. >> Or also, and also I think also interesting I'd love to get your thoughts on this is that an event just happened so you can capture it, but also you can actually put some synthesis around it with other data. You can actually extract some meanings, hence the predictive analytics trend, and prescription analytics, so, interesting challenge. >> It is What you can do with data now in the cloud is interesting. I can talk specifically for the Microsoft side. It's really at the point to where when I talk to clients about what they want to do with their data, it becomes like, how much money do you want to throw at it? We can get insights, nearly unlimited insights, they way the machine learning is coming forward now into the fold, you see people doing things like facial detection, speech recognition, just out of the box, you just buy it. Right? And so, the customized solution for those, for customers' data, it seems to be unlimited on what we can train those models to do and predict now >> Just good timing, right now, good environment. >> It is. I mean, it basically it just wasn't possible 10 years ago. And now you can just, whatever you want, as long as you can just pay for the computing power. >> I want to ask you a question. I'll get your reaction cause it's an interesting conversation. I was riffing on this at one of the block chain events I was covering. In the old days, technology decision was the big decision. Everything was enabled based on the technology decision. But now with all of this stuff going on, business decision-making's critical because there's so much you can double down on, you can spend on whatever. I mean if insights are potentially almost, well, not unlimited, but, you know, plentiful, you really got to focus on what's more important, so this is really more the business model logic is now the risk piece. Technology can always move around, so your thoughts and reaction to that, and how do you rationalize that and how do we get people educated on this new world order? >> A lot of sales engagements now really are a menu. It really is a menu. You're putting it in front of a CIO and you're going "Here, I want you to look through this and tell me what you want." 'Cause we can do pretty much anything and then they can start picking, and they'll be like "No cheese on that hamburger." >> Yeah, yeah >> You can give them just the menu and say, "Do you want your"- >> Here, have sides >> Yeah, do you want this on the side, what do you want? When you talk about technology now, it's really about just telling them, "If you want all of your mobile apps enabled to have speech recognition, facial detection, if you want unlimited data storage, this is just it, this is how much that costs now, and you can just go through your menu and just pick and choose when and how you want it." >> So service catalog has become big deal, then, at this point, for customers with all on-boarding, dashboards. Roll up cuber-netting, is that in your world right now, and the Istio conversation that we're seeing here, I don't know if you've been following that here. >> So, Kubernetes isn't necessarily my world, but the containers are, so the way that Microsoft does the Edge computing, is that they actually, you'll write an Edge module, and it's just a container, and that container just ships down to whatever device is running on the edge, and it can use that instantly. And the only reason Kubernetes doesn't really get involved in my world that much is I do serverless, so we don't even look at the Kubernetes. It's behind the scenes. >> Got it. We just write code and it just runs it. >> Yeah, it's orchestrating all that, cool. And serverless is certainly, I love that term, serverless, because it implies no servers, but there's servers somewhere. It's in the cloud. Great to have you. Thoughts on this event? What are you trying to get out of learning here at the Cisco DevNet Create? Obviously it's cloud, it's developers, it's building solution. >> For me, specifically, I really want to see what kinetics has to offer in the IOT smart city space. And I want to see how that integrates with Microsoft. I want to find out where we can meet infrastructure to the digital and make that integration as smooth as possible. >> Jared, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Really appreciate your insight. The practitioner trying to synthesize and make sense of it doing some cutting edge things IOT business impact all happening in real time right here on theCUBE. More after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum, in Mountain View, California. It's theCUBE! Covering: DevNet Create 2018. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We're live here in Silicon Valley, in Mountain View, California. It's theCUBE's coverage, DevNet Create, here I'm John Furrier with my hosts Lauren Cooney, and next is Louis Frolio, technical evangelist at IBM. Good to see you again. >> Thank you for having me. Lauren, hello. >> Good to catch up. IBM, love the Think shirt. Welcome back. >> Thank you, it's great to be here. >> Alright, so what's going on for you here, I heard IBM is partnering with Cisco? What's going on? >> Well, we're here to help promote the idea around IoT, analytics at the edge, right? With the idea of demonstrating a lot of the IBM products. I did a workshop today and you know, a lot of hands-on mechanical stuff, but also leveraging some of the IoT technology offered by IBM. >> John: If IBM Cloud Analytics is mainly what you're doing, >> That's right. >> We've had a chat in the past going back to big data days, and CUBE days when it was fashionable now to kind of have more data links, not necessarily the central part of the conversation, AI is on it, obviously Mark Zuckerberg's presenting in front of, or testifying in front of the Senate. >> Louis: That's right. >> It's all around AI and analytics, you also see the day the data rolls change, but here, conversation with Cisco is IOT, because a lot of the network stuff, edge of the network, these are paradigms that are network-inherently perfect for Cisco, for the edge. IBM does a lot of IOT jobs, do a lot of blockchain work as well. You know, this is all serving enterprises. So, what is the big theme, real relevant theme for enterprises when it comes to things like How do I use blockchains? or How do I use IoT? How do I incorporate that tech into my enterprise? >> Well I think the first barrier is to just understand the technology and the limitations of that technology. So you mention blockchain, I'm quite a bit in the field talking to people, talking to partners, IBM partners, customers, potential customers, and there's this confusion around what say, blockchain is. What blockchain is all about. And the same with big data back in the day. You mentioned we met up at some conferences back then. I think they need to understand what the technologies do, what they serve. The purposes they serve. So blockchain is fairly new, right? There's a lot of confusion. It was the same with big data back then, very confusing. IoT, you know, when we go out as a technical evangelist, my team, we go out and we talk to people. There's an appetite to learn more about and understand what this IoT thing is, and how can they use it. How can it help us make more money? >> What are they drilling down on, or better yet, what do you evangelize in? What are they receptive to? What's working for them, what resonates with the customers, or potential customers that you guys talk to? >> First and foremost, the fact that when we go out, when we have live sessions, and we train, we give them hands-on right out of the gate. Within 20 minutes, they have a bot, chat bot built. Within an hour, we build a blockchain. They do it, they see it, and they experience it. And that excites them. And along the way, we try to educate them on why this is important, and this is how it can be used. IoT is you know, there's confusion around that too. How can I leverage this, but I've also talked to customers where they're doing some cool stuff with the Edge. >> And I think that leads my next question, actually. Which is, what use cases do you see? What are customers talking about? You know, I think if you have people building blockchains, and things along those lines, that's great. But what are they going to apply it to? >> So there's a perfect example, working with a customer. And their business is around drones, on UAV's, to go out and look for anomalies on pipelines, oil pipelines. So they have a great technology, a drone, it can go 100 kilometers an hour. It can go 100 kilometers in distance. But what they need, they really need to be able to look for things that shouldn't be there. So, computer vision. Machine learning, deep learning. And so we're working with them now to help them get the technology just right to live on the drone, to be able to do image recognition with high accuracy, in real time. So the machine learning, and the IoT working out on the Edge. >> Lauren: So is that Watson-machine learning >> No, no. Because it has to happen. We can do a Watson today, right. The problem is, you have to have that long-haul communication with the Cloud. No, this needs to happen on the drone in real-time. So we're working with them to figure out how we can achieve that. And there's some things coming out of IBM in the near future that'll make that a bit easier. >> Lauren: Great. >> And I think that's an exciting, awesome use case, to be able to do computer vision on the fly, and you know, using these neural networks to make decisions. >> John: I mean the droning example is real life, and it's one of those things where you see many presentations and examples. One of them, I love, I'm a wireless geek, but I love the towers and to see how they send drones up to look at the equipment, and look for repair. So it's all automated, it's all perfectly executed in the air space, if you will. But because in there, power lines, drones are being used to clear debris in power lines. All kinds of use cases, I think Accenture once told us there was a use case where on car accidents, or scenes where they got to fix the road, the drones come in and do a full representation of a visual, and reduces the time to survey the scene. >> Louis: Along that thread, you think about the wind farms. These huge wind farms, and they have to do inspections. Some of these fields you see have 500 turbines out there. And so you need to get out there, and the drones are perfect for that. They can look at the blades, 'cause they have the high-speed cameras, and those blades are turning, they could still look for defects and fractures, and predict using analytics again out there. Predictive maintenance to say hey, there's something going on here. >> John: Well, can you help us with theCUBE drone? We need a CUBE drone to go out and cover all of our events for us. (John laughs) >> Louis: Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to work with you guys. >> John: So, in all seriousness now, just kidding aside, is there a profile that you see with customers that resonates well? In terms of, why are some people more successful now on the cutting edge, is it because they got the foresight, they got the budget? Is it IT? What's the perfect configuration? What makes the customers more attuned to knocking down these low-hanging fruit scenarios? >> Louis: So, I'm going to say something that's obvious. And I'm sure you see it all the time, but it's just risk-averse, you know. You need to put yourself out there, you need to be a next-gen thinker. And that's how within my team, we think about going out and finding these next-gen partners. Born in the cloud, they're thinking, they're thinking beyond what's in front of you. So, the people that are doing this cool work, they're really hardcore tech, like the drone example, or these young entrepreneurs who really don't have much to lose, and they have these great ideas, certainly around blockchain. I've heard some cool ideas around blockchain, and what people want to do with it. And so, they're smart, they're agile, they have a vision. And they'll take the chance. >> John: The theme here that's interesting, and Lauren and I were talking about it earlier, is that the code-creation model is really where the ideas are going to come from. So, the old model was you pick some technology selection, and you put it to work, and you depreciate it or amortize it over whatever period financially, the pay-back period, all that nonsense. Now to a world where all the ideas are coming from the teams themselves. So the suppliers, the vendors don't pitch here's our IoT solution! Here's our IoT fabric, that's the new approaches, the new posture for vendors, where it's these developers who are creating all of the action. >> Louis: Yeah, it's certainly-- >> John: You see that? >> Louis: Yeah, that's how the workshop we did here today, if someone wants to kick the tires and wants to learn, you're not going to go to proprietary vendor equipment. It's like big data back in the day. Everyone started the duke, that was the center of it, right, open source. And it's the same here, so there's a lot of technology, open source, free technology for people to go out and do prototypes, and figure out what they need to do. And that's what we're seeing, certainly when we go and do our live events with IBM, hands-on immediately. You're doing IoT solutions, so you can take it away and you can go back, and now you can apply it and build on it. So it's going back to just education, and people understanding what these technologies are, how to use them, and how to get started. You know, the proverbial Hello World program. >> John: Is there a big event coming up for IBM? You're going to be on tours, or what's your schedule look like? Are you on the road a lot? What are the big things you got going on? >> Louis: Well, we just had Think out in Vegas. You guys were there. >> Lauren: I was there, yup. >> Louis: You were there, it was awesome. >> Lauren: We were all there! >> Louis: And we had the IBM index not too long before that, so that's sort of like the developer event like this. For us, on the team I'm on, we have schedules throughout the year to go through various cities, there are 15 of us all around the country. You know, hosting meet-ups and initiating meet-ups. Getting partner events, co-hosting with partners. >> John: Developers or CxO's, or? >> Louis: So we target the development team, and we target the decision-maker around making purchases, right? So they need to be a part of that story, we easily win over the developers with our technology. The hard part is winning over the people that sign the check, so yeah. It's exciting. >> John: Well hey, thanks for stopping by, great to see you. >> Lauren: Thank you! >> Louis: Thank you very much! >> John: Good job, analytics is the heart of the IoT. Louis Frolio, Technical Evangelist at IBM. The data's where all the action is, obviously the data's the center. You've got AI, blockchain, that's IBM's vision. Love the new message from IBM. Right on the money. We're at DevNet Create, here in Silicon Valley. More live coverage, after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California, it's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2018. Brought to you by Cisco. (jingle) >> Hi, welcome back to theCUBE. My name is Lauren Cooney, and I'm here today with Matt Johnson who is a technologist at Cisco, with Cisco DevNet. Hi Matt. >> Hi, how's it going? Good to see you again. >> Pretty good. Good to see you again too. So what's going on here? What's going on with the show and what are you working on? >> Oh, sure. So the show in general is just this ability for us, you know, Cisco DevNet have always had quite a large and a growing presence at Cisco Live, kind of Cisco's, Europe and US yearly conferences. But this is the second year we've done Create, and it's really an opportunity to kind of take the real developer angle, the makers, the API integrators, kind of the real, kind of developer ecosystem that's going around Cisco's products and our APIs, and just kind of focus on that audience. So, you know, all the content here is developer for developer. And so it's just really nice to be able to experiment in a bit more of an open format. >> Yeah, exactly. So it's kind of that DIY environment of developers that are coming in and really doing all this stuff and starting to innovate on their own. >> Yeah, absolutely. And what I'm really excited about here we have the, we had kind of a two-day hackathon running at the same time as the event, and so, instead of that just being a little bit of time spent between sessions, these are teams that have already kind of been working behind the scenes on the run-up to the event, so they've already kind of met each other virtually through collaboration, they've already worked out what kind of problem space they want to solve, they've already started working on kind of sample and PLC code, so the idea that at the end of a two-day conference we could actually see some working solutions to real problems that our partners and our customer ecosystem is seeing, I think that's quite-- >> That's great. >> An exciting idea. >> Yeah, Mandy Whalen was just on with us. >> Oh, fantastic. >> And she actually talked a little bit about that, and you know, so these guys will be up for 24 hours hacking on stuff. Hopefully we'll see some great solutions come the end and you know, we'll talk about it here on theCUBE. >> Yeah. >> So tell me about what you're doing today at Cisco DevNet. >> Sure, so from one style of hacking to another, we are actually running this demo called the Black Hat White Hat Challenge. And I went to, I've always been a bit of a kind of hobbyist pentester. >> Lauren: Never, no. >> I liked breaking things from a young age. And I got to attend my first Defcon in Las Vegas last year, and coming from an evangelism background, coming from kind of doing workshops and talks and demos, I was absolutely amazed at the interactivity of pretty much everything that goes on at the black hat hacking conference, sorry the Defcon hacking conference. My apologies. They have, you know, hands-on IoT villages where you can go and try hacking against all the hardware, there is kind of labs and tutorials for people that are maybe just getting into kind of that side of hacking and penetration testing. So I kind of brought that back and I've always had a passion for security, and IoT nowadays, we are in a situation where a lot of these devices we are starting to bring into our homes and our businesses and things, are built to a budget. They are built cheap, they're not security devices. People aren't thinking of security, they're thinking of functionality when they're building those, so someone that makes fridge freezers isn't going to be thinking about the 10 year security roadmap for that fridge freezer. They're going to be thinking about selling the latest smart freezer. >> Lauren: Exactly. >> And so I wanted to kind of bring some of that hands-on Defcon-style hacking into a real-world scenario. So at security conferences and at developer conferences, we always talk about things being insecure, and we talk about needing to think about security. But what we have is a booth here where we actually take off-the-shelf IoT devices, and in a curated path we are getting attendees with no background in kind of pen testing to use real-world hacking tools and real exploits against those devices, to build their access into that network and eventually get to the goal, which is getting into an electrical safe with like a price inside. And all of that is real off-the-shelf IoT. It's real security. And the aim of that is to kind of-- >> So they are actually cracking the safe. >> They are cracking the safe, they are cracking into Wi-Fi. They're getting onto the guest Wi-Fi and then finding a vulnerability in the router which gets them onto the wired network, so that'd be like a guest network in a corporate environment or a guest network in a hotel, getting you onto the hotel's infrastructure network and then to a camera. >> So this is like straight up hacker one. >> Straight up, yeah, exactly, right? Which is perfect. >> Lauren: This is great. >> Yeah, exactly. So that's what we're doing and the idea is to just to kind of stop talking about it and start showing. This is not stuff you need to be super good at. This is stuff you can Google. The tools are out there, the tools are getting more and more easy to use. And also vulnerabilities are becoming more and more common because of the growth of IoT. There were double the number of CVE, like known vulnerabilities in the wild in 2017 than there were in 2016. >> Okay. >> And that's because of this constant pace of new devices. So we're kind of showing that these are really crackable by anyone with a bit of time and research. And then also showing kind of what can be done about that. And, you know, even without kind of the proactive and firewalls and things like that, just getting a developer audience thinking about this stuff, getting them, you know, fresh in their mind, you know, these are the kind of places we should be focusing on IoT security because it's these developers that will be writing code and those products today-- >> I think that's great. And I think security is so important today with everything going on, and then there's Facebook and testimonies that are happening today, and you know, lots of different things. Now, what are you using to actually kind of fill these holes, fill these kind of security vulnerabilities that you're using with these off-the-shelf IoT devices? >> Sure, so what we are showing is how kind of, if you know if you have these devices on your network, obviously layering things like Cisco's net-gen firewalls in line with those devices, has signatures that will detect. It's not going to patch the device itself, 'cause that might be from another vendor or an IoT camera or a light switch or something, but it's going to detect the malicious traffic trying to attack that device and drop it. So you're kind of protecting your perimeter, you're stopping a vulnerable device becoming an actual hack. Alternatively from a personal perspective, as we start looking at how we consume hardware in our homes and businesses, I actually really like kind of the Meraki model and the Nest Cam model, and you know, all the other camera vendors which charge you with subscription, 'cause if you buy hardware one-off, you have no idea whether that price for that hardware allotted budget for the development team to keep thinking about security or whether that team doesn't exist anymore and they're off building their next product. >> Lauren: Yup. >> Whereas if you're buying something on kind of a subscription basis, even though the hardware is in your home, you know that their profit is based on them keeping your product up-to-date. >> Lauren: Definitely. >> So you expect, you know, real-time updates, you expect timely security updates. And so I think that kind of a software as a service style delivery of on-prem hardware is definitely a more secure approach. >> Yeah, and the Meraki model is definitely moving forward as one of the prevalent models that we, you know, Cisco has. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> And it's, you know, that plug and play, easy-to-use, get it up and running, et cetera. >> Exactly, and then on the back of that you know that there's people working on those security things, which isn't something that you think about when you buy it for its APIs and its plug-and-play in its ease-of-use, but just knowing that that is there and, you know, you're paying for that development, is a good thing. >> Where do you see most of these vulnerabilities, and I know you have a lot of background in cloud computing and you know, in these arenas, but where do you see most of these vulnerabilities? >> Matt: So-- >> It's a big question. >> Yeah. I mean a lot of the, hackers are going to wherever, you know, is easiest for the amount of time and effort. Certainly when we see kind of malicious actors kind of looking for a large footprints, large, building botnets et cetera. There could be a very, very clever attack that requires a lot of time and effort, or there could be an IoT device that you know there's going to be 4 million of them sold online, they're going to go for those. And like I said, these devices are low-power, built to a budget. You can get them into your hands and like SaaS service online. So people can take them apart, they can have a look at the code inside of them. They can have a look at the operating system. So it's quite easy to find vulnerabilities on these IOT devices. >> Lauren: Oh yeah. >> So that is definitely a growing area. Also the level for harm on those kind of vulnerabilities, if we are talking about Internet-connected healthcare, Internet-connected hospital equipment, you know, control valves for factories that may or may not be dealing with certain kind of materials. That is definitely a focus both from a security industry perspective, and also kind of where we are seeing hackers targeting. >> That's great. So tell me a little bit about what else you're working on right now. I think, I always find it interesting to hear from you what you're kind of hacking with and-- >> Yeah, sure. So that's my, that's my kind of security hobby-cum-part time role I guess within DevNet. >> Lauren: Love it. >> I quite like that kind of hands-on security evangelism. A lot of other stuff I'm doing is all around kind of open source and micro services and containers. So we're doing lots of work internally with Kubernetes Right now. Proof of concepting, some new user space networking code. >> Lauren: Oh great. >> Which would allow basically the network your traffic takes from your application in the container, write out to the network card, to be a user space app. So, you know, you're not stuck with the networking that a cloud provider gives you. If you want to test your application fully like packet to app back to the wire, and know that that network is also going to go with you when you deploy anywhere, we're going to be able to do that. >> That's fabulous. >> And there's also some real performance benefits to kind of not going in and out of the Linux kernel, so we can kind of saturate 40 gigabits a second from a container, straight down to the wire on kind of commodity compute like UCS what like any x86 service. So really excited about that. It's in development at the moment. That's all open source. >> Lauren: It will be all open source. >> It's all open source already under the FD.io project, FD dot io. >> Oh. >> The integration into Kubernetes is ongoing. And obviously will be open sourced as it gets developed. But that's super exciting. Also just the whole Merakifi, Merakification if I can say that. This idea of turning on-prem devices into kind of black box, you know, cloud managed, cloud updated. You have an IT team. They're just remote and kind of paid for in a SaaS model rather than having to manage and patch those devices on-prem. >> Lauren: Oh yeah. >> You know, we currently do that with switches and routers and cameras as I'm sure you know that the Meraki product portfolio, I don't see why we don't do that with on-prem compute. Why don't we do that with on-prem, you know, Kubernetes clusters. Why should a Kubernetes cluster, just because it sat in your data center, be any different in terms of usability, billing, management, than the one you get from Google Cloud platform or Azure or AWS? It should have the same user experience. So across those two areas, yeah, that's where I'm spending most of my time at the moment. >> Great, well, we're kind of wrapping up here. Tell me, what is the most exciting thing for you that's coming down the path in the next six months or so? >> Um. >> Can you tell us? >> I cannot tell you the most exciting thing, I'm afraid. It has to do with everything I'm talking about, kind of the networking, the as a service, super excited about user space networking. We have customers that looking to do kind of real-time video pipelines for a broadcast in containers. And being able to do that on-prem or in cloud or wherever, and this FD.io VPP technology, I think will really unlock that. >> Lauren: That's great. >> So real use cases, and yeah, super excited. >> Great. Matt, thank you so much for coming on today. >> It's been pleasure. >> Yeah, my pleasure as well. This is Lauren Clooney and we'll be right back from the show here at Cisco DevNet Create. (jingle)

>> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California, it's The Cube, covering DevNet Create 2018. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. We're here live with The Cube in Mountain View, California for exclusive coverage of Cisco DevNet Create. I'm John Furrier with my co-host today, Lauren Cooney. Our next guest is Mandy Whaley, who's the Director of Developer Experience at Cisco DevNet, been on multiple times. She's also the key person here in the DevNet community on the Cisco side, putting all of this together with Susie Wee and the team. Great to have you back. >> Thank you! >> You look fabulous. >> Really excited to be here. >> Great job on the stage today. I want to just quickly get the news out there. You've got some new things going on here at this event that's new, but building on top of what you guys did at the inaugural event. >> Yes, yes! So one of the new things that we added this year is called Camp Create, and the idea with it was, we wanted to have a builder track for our people that wanted to come and actually code the whole time that they were here. We put together a specific sort of experience for them. And it's not a hackathon, but it has hackathon elements. We started with six use cases that we outlined originally, gave them all the technology here on site, so they're actually using location services from the wireless network here. We've got collaboration equipment, we've got things from the Google partnership we brought in. And these six teams all picked a use case, and they're building furiously, and they're going to present their final demos tomorrow. One of the teams is even doing like an Oculus Rift kind of thing that'll be cool. >> That's great, so how much time do these folks have? >> So, they started this morning at 8, and they're finishing tomorrow at 3. >> So, will they stay up all night? >> They, many of them, are thinking to stay up all night. >> That's awesome. >> So let's just get this, the numbers, so Camp Create is six teams of five people, over six use cases? >> Six different use cases, >> Over two days. >> Two days, that's right. >> So they have to pick a use case, or they have to do all six? >> They are each picking, each team picks a use case. >> One use case. And codes away as a team. >> Yes. And they can, there is parameters in the use case, but there's also a lot of room for creativity to add to it. So we're interested to see how those come together. And we started, this is our first year. We had a waiting list of people who were wanting to get into Camp Create. So we plan to grow it next year, and we thought maybe have 12 teams on the six use cases, and then have the two teams face off on who has the best solution, so that could be fun. >> Camp Create madness. You got to do a qualifying round. >> Oh, yeah, a whole, yeah. >> You know, down the road, you'll have brackets. >> John's going to be a judge. >> That'd be great! >> I want to work with you on this, I love the idea. Camp Create, check it out. Congrats, I love the formula. >> Thank you. >> It creates competitiveness with collaboration, makes it fun, but that's part of your program here, fun, as well. >> That's right. We definitely want to have fun. So we wanted this DevNet Create to be a lot about community connections that form, and you generally have an easier time doing that when you're having fun. So a lot of hands on, a lot of time for community members to connect. >> Oh yeah, the Tech Talks are back, right? >> The Tech Talks are back. >> What's the topics this week in Tech Talks? >> So, we've got topics ranging from DevOps practices and patterns to IoT and blockchain and we have a lot even around developer experience and API experience, which I'm super excited about. And then we have all the hands-on workshops, where you can actually go and sit and code and get hands-on with many open source projects, with different platforms from our partners, all kinds of stuff. >> That's great. Yeah, there's also a big emphasis on the microservices and Kubernetes because of the Google partnership that we brought in this year. >> Is that weaved in to Istio stuff? >> Yes. >> Has that weaved in, and where has that kind of made its way into the workshops, mini-hacks and things you got going on? >> It's in pretty much all of them, so one of the things we've been excited about is our Istio sandbox. So our DevNet sandbox, where developers can try out all kinds of different platforms, we have an Istio one that's, it's set up and it has some rails on it, some use cases, so it's easy for people who, maybe, aren't familiar with Istio to really try it out. So we have some challenges here around that, and then definitely a lot of workshops that are covering different cloud native topics. >> Well, you guys do a great job. This is the second event. Last year was phenomenal. DevNet and the booth at Cisco Live in Barcelona was great. We'll be at Cisco Live in Orlando. What's it like now, internally at Cisco, because the Cisco Developer Program, I mean, I've watched it from the a kernel of a handful, one person, to two people to three people, and then, all of a sudden, internal politics says, "We're a routing company, we're a networking company," So now Cisco has evolved itself into a full-blown, almost a half a million, billion people, I mean half a million people, I'm thinking about Facebook scale, but half a million people, almost, in the DevNet community. >> Right. >> And you've got the Create, which is now the cloud native, how's it going, what's the team look like, what are you guys excited about? >> It's going great. The team has been growing, but growing thoughtfully and intentionally in how we want to grow it. The community has been amazing, because we really have been working hard to bring together these two audiences. Our networking and infrastructure developers, who are moving into DevOps, doing more automation, starting to use APIs, and then connecting them with the application developers, who work in the enterprise, and really working to get that conversation together and show, kind of, the value of Cisco to both of them. And we've seen growth in both, this conference, it's more about the application developers, and that is a big growing part of it. >> I got to say, I've seen a natural progression between network engineers, network developers with cloud, because anyone who's done any kind of configuration or provisioning of anything-- >> That's right. >> knows, can go to the cloud instantly. It's like, oh my God. And then you got containers, a concept that's well understood by network engineers, and they write software. So not a lot of learning, I mean, some learning language, but it's not a big leap. >> It's not a big leap, and it's such a technically proficient group of people anyway who are fast learners, and so it's definitely an easy way forward for them. And then, what we try to do is, our Edge Compute, for instance, that's deploy a docker container, so developers already know how to do that, it's using tools they're familiar with, so trying to connect that from both sides. >> It's like a fish taking to water, I mean, it's not that hard. Just jump right in. So, okay, now the cloud native really gets exciting when you talk about what Kubernetes is enabling. Because now you're a true DevOps world, where the people who don't want to touch the network at all still need to have some enablement where in that world, it's like, "Hey, I'm coding away on my apps, "that's all I care about. "I don't want to get down in the weeds under the hood "on provisioning stuff," or any kind of programmability. Where's that kick in? Where's that cross-connect? >> Yeah, so you definitely, for the groups that do want to work at that level, you want to enable that for sure, and get all the acceleration you can, and then, like our guest speaker from Google this morning said, he was like, HyperCloud is real, and it's also hard, and there's challenges, and so I think the Google partnership with Cisco and Cisco DevNet is to really work through those challenges, make it real and find the ways through those challenges. So we're trying to bring, again, kind of those two worlds together. >> Where are those connection points with the Google relationship? Is it Istio? Is it Kubernetes? >> Istio is part of it, Kubernetes, there's use cases for connecting on from, to cloud services, and then connecting cloud applications to on-prem things, so it's really about enabling all of those different use cases. >> And those best practices that these developers cross-environment need to actually deliver these applications to the cloud or pull them back on-prem. That's right, and how do they learn, maybe, the piece that they don't already know, whichever side of that equation they're coming from. So some of our DevNet audience, we started doing Containers 101. Like, if you don't know about containers, here's how you learn it. Get started with Istio, so connecting those dots. >> Well, Mandy, great to see you. Congratulations, Camp Create. >> Thank you, yeah! >> I want to get in, put a team together. >> Okay, we're doing the bracket year and all that. >> No, we do a whole qualifying. >> Yes, definitely! >> just Northern California, Southern California, >> Regional. >> and then bring the best of the best for a face-off cage match. >> Are you going to plan it? That's great. >> Yeah, of course, I'm in. >> You plan it next year. >> He can plan it, I'll judge. >> Awesome, perfect, thank you! >> I love anything to do with camping, but, appreciate it, thanks for coming on. >> Absolutely! >> Thank you. >> We're bringing you all the action here at DevNet Create here in Silicon Valley, Mountain View, California. Be right back with more after this short break. >> Mandy: Thanks so much!

>> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. It's theCUBE covering DevNet Create 2018, brought to you by Cisco. (techy music playing) >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. We're here live at theCUBE here in Mountain View in the heart of California, the Silicon Valley. I'm John Furrier, my cohost Lauren Cooney. Our next guest is Riaz Raihan, who's the global VP and general manager of Cisco, IOT, CUBE alumni, back... Last on at Cisco Live in Barcelona. We got Cisco Live coming up, but we're here at DevNet Create developer... Develop our ecosystem for Cisco and external cloud native developers, great to see you. >> Thank you, John, pleasure to be back. >> What's a Cisco guy like you doing at a hoody show like this, IOT... >> You know, IOT is so topical and there's so much interest around it, so just happy to be here with the developers and just get to meet a few people out here and just be part of this whole event. >> So, IOT, we last time, and all joking aside is really hot because you have now, you know, the cloud is a foundation, on-premise data, hybrid cloud going on, but the Edge of the network's certainly very relevant. So, you've got a lot of new things happening. So, the question for you is what industries are early adopting... What industries do you see that are adopting IOT in the programmable way? I'm not so much as censored networks, they're out there, but as they bring them into, the IOT into the technology, IT world, which industries are the most adoptive for you guys? >> I talk about, you know, a handful of industries that are really leading the charge, right. Number one I'd say is manufacturing. We see a lot of activity out there primarily because for the first time manufacturers have an opportunity to really converge their data and put it on an IP network, which is exciting. The other big one is energy, both oil and gas as well as utility. >> John: Mm-hmm. >> And then we're seeing huge amount of interest in transportation, both in actually the roadways as well as well as the fleet that run on the roadways. In addition to those I'd say retail and general public sector and cities are big adopters of IOT. >> So, on the IOT side with, say... Let's take transportation, so as we know, we know that Uber happened with Uber. They had a death, now the censor, they sort of argued latency matters, right, so you've got to have a network, support it. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> Is smart cities truly happening in a way that's, in your opinion, moving the ball down the field. Where is the smart cities with IOT respect to cities I mean, is it still early, are they moving the ball down the field, your thoughts? >> You know, I'm asked this question pretty often and I can tell you that moving a city towards a smart city is actually a massive endeavor. What we find is the cities that are doing this successfully, they kind of start small with a few use cases. Let's say parking, maybe lighting, and then they've got to expand out the number of use cases but also geographic spread of where they'll deploy, and specifically, you know, when they work with us one of the big advances we're making is something called the FOG Appliance. Building this easy-to-install appliance that can be used at intersections and at various points to enable cities to go smart. >> So, Lauren, you and I were talking the other day about this, is that, you know, in the cloud, you bring cloud together with the developers. >> Lauren: Yep. >> It's interesting because they have to actually figure out that software going to be powering the Edge-- >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> And you know, Kubernetes is in one example, and then when you start looking at what Kubernetes is doing to the network layer you say, "Okay, I've got to write software." >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> But most of the Edge applications, oil and gas, they're like facilities guys. These guys are hardware people. They're deploying cameras, they're not-- >> Well, there has to be their software that actually runs on that as well to enable things for people, places, and things at the Edge and I think you all have to look at the Edge when you are talking about IOT, especially. >> Software, that's the key, what do you say to all those guys that have to relearn software? (laughing) Come to DevNet Create, I mean, this is a real issue. >> Yeah, you know, if you look at software in general, right, software's playing a bigger and bigger role in these applications, not to diminish the role of hardware or networking or any of the other elements, but what software's certainly playing a bigger role, like let me give you an example. Let's talk about the FOG Appliance. You know, one of the things we've been working on quite diligently is building out a single software framework that can sit on a number of different hardware devices depending on what the use case is, and the use case is defined by the customer, it's defined by the industry. It's also defined by the price point, so what we're seeing more and more, John, is having a single software framework but being able to deploy across different platforms, if you will, and therefore building different appliances to solve different problems. >> Lauren: Great. >> Yeah, and one of the things that I think is huge, and I want to get your thoughts on this, I think we should do a deep dive on it, and that is is that video is becoming much more of a bigger app. We use video a lot, as seen on theCUBE. Thank you for watching, but there's a lot of data in the video apps. It's not just do the video to communicate a message. >> Riaz: Yep. >> There's a digital artifact-- >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> That's beyond what it's for. It's now digitized-- >> Riaz: Yeah. >> So, that's now data, your thoughts? >> You know, when we were talking before you mentioned video is a data asset, completely agree. What we're finding is video is now transitioning from just being something that we thought about for safety and security to becoming more of an intelligent asset. Video's also now getting integrated more with the business process. So, let me give you an example. We're working with the manufacturer of nylon, and this is a process industry that works 24/7, and they're using video to actually monitor the output as it comes out of the machines. Because when the temperature rises above a certain limit, and this is obviously a manufacturing defect, it tends to blob up the nylon, which then reduces the value of the nylon from something that's high grade and high margin to low grade and low margin. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> And video's helping solve the problem. So, the video creates an alert that's part now of the manufacturing process and manufacturing control, allowing management to intervene quickly to kind of at least cut their losses. So, that's an example of how video's now becoming very much a part of the business process. Not just safety and security but well beyond that. >> Well beyond surveillance. >> Riaz: Yeah. >> Lauren: Yeah. >> This is more than just normal use cases. So, new value activities are going on with video. >> Absolutely, the other big one is traffic, and I'm talking about road traffic. Whether you look at tunnels or you look at parkways and so on, we're now seeing video being used to monitor the flow patterns of cars-- >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> On highways and on parkways-- >> Lauren: Yeah. >> And then not just using that to predict traffic jams, but in some cases predict accidents. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> Because once you take these data labels and data assets through video and compute them, it's a stream of information that can be analyzed mathematically using an algorithm, and then fortunately we are able to now use that-- >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> To prevent accidents potentially, right? >> Lauren: Yeah. >> So, that's the kind of thing we see video in. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> And this is just the cusp. You'll see a lot more of use cases where video and IOT get very integrated and again, very happy that Cisco's leading the charge on that. >> Mm-hmm. >> So, Lauren, I want to ask you a question because I know you and I have been talking about this, and that is is that the developer role around this is not obvious... I mean, it's obvious, "Oh, got to write software." >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> But now you've got to create ecosystems. So, let's just say businesses want to integrate video, they have a buy/build decision to make. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> Do they build it from scratch or they integrate it in. So, if you take Riaz's next level of conversation is video is a service, it's a microservice. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> If it's a data asset, if you believe that it's a microservice. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> So, it's not trivial now, you've got to figure out how to codify it. What do you guys think about that? You guys are the experts in the software, what's your thoughts? >> So, you know, I can jump in. I think this is an important trend. You know, especially if you look at three industries that I personally work with: manufacturing, you look at energy, and then you look at retail. These are three industries that I think are leading the charge on how they're using video, you know, in this context, and how the video's actually provided I think is less important. What's more important, as you said, is the microservice that has video as a component, and then consuming that and integrating it with a whole value stream within that industry. The other important element, I believe, is the use of video in conjunction with other types of sensors. So, let me give you an example. We're working with a large telco and you know, they have these cell towers placed all across the country and they actually video, they have video to monitor the cell towers and that's great, but the problem is it gives them a lot of false positives. So, they solved the problem by using human form recognition, still-- >> Like what's a false positive, give me an example. >> A false positive is, you know, a leaf, branch blowing. >> John: Oh, okay. >> And that gives you a positive reading, right. Now, they've kind of used, they've used some technology and they've reduced that down, but they still have too many false positives. So, they decided to combine the video feed with some of the sensors that they have. For example, when someone tries to pull a copper plate from the cell phone tower there's a sensor that tracks that. So, now combining the video input and the sensor input they get, you know, much fewer false positives. >> John: Yeah. >> And are able to take action much more expeditiously. >> The co-occurring incidents are a huge, huge opportunity for the IP. So, the thing I want to ask you, because I think this is much more business oriented, so want to get your thoughts on it... Okay, video's a data asset, people say it. I believe that, now I want to operationalize that in my company. Talk about a new process improvement, that's hard to do because they've never done it before. How are you guys engaging customers and what are some best practices to get them to operationalize a new, not just new technology or service, but actually integrate it into a preexisting or changing value chain? >> One of the things we do, John, is we'll engage with customers to do what we call a value management analysis. So, we actually sit down with them, work out, you know, what their existing process looks like, what an improved process might look like, and importantly, what kind of cost they can take out of the process, out of the system, or what kind of new value they can drive for their customers. So, it's either an increase in revenue, it's a decrease in cost, or an improvement in process efficiencies. Once we've done that it really allows us to then pair up that new process with our technology, and then actually track how much of the value they've received. We've found this approach kind of grounds everything in a very strong ROI, so instead of guessing as to what the output will be and does it actually move the needle on a value basis. We're actually able to document that up front and then actually track the results against what we thought would be. The other advantage of this process is it allows us to improve incrementally. So, the first version of a video enabled business process might give us a certain amount of value, but as we improve on that you could see incremental values and other processes being added on. Very similar to starting small and then adding on incrementally-- >> John: Yeah. >> Kind of a designed way. >> But you got to be open minded. Just let me throw a wrench into the equation here, which is okay, new data source... >> Riaz: Yeah. >> You mentioned the co-occurring identity on the cell tower, for example. There could be, like, multiple data inputs that are new. How does a customer figure that out? >> Different customers are different, and again, as I mentioned-- >> John: Or in generally speaking, because you've got to be prepared for the unknown. >> Yeah, some industries I think are more open to this because they have seen... They have felt this problem before. Going back to manufacturing as an example, monitoring, visually monitoring the output of a manufacturing process is a very labor intensive, you know, proposition. Manufacturers have struggled doing that for a long time. >> John: Yeah. >> Now having used video and getting just a very high level of efficiency-- >> John: Yeah. >> And combining different types of inputs is something they're very open to. >> John: Yeah. >> So, we see them very open to it. Other industries, I think, are coming along, but it all goes back to how important a problem are you solving and what's the payoff of solving the problem? >> John: Yeah. >> The bigger the problem, the more the willingness. >> Great conversation-- >> Lauren: Yeah. >> We had the devops guy on early. Damian, who's with Rundeck and he's saying, you know, bringing down silos and tickets is killing operations. >> Lauren: Yep. >> It's an old paradigm. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> You guys are going down a new road, and we talked about this at Cisco Live in Barcelona. You got tail wind for you guys as this, but you got a clean sheet of paper but you got some preexisting stuff, but it's not like baggage. It's just opportunity, in my opinion. So, I got to ask you how is the business going, what are you guys doing? What are some of the recent successes you've had? Share some insight into the-- >> Yeah, and I think just to add to that, I think what are the revenue opportunities that you see that, you know, you're providing these services to these customers. They must see new revenue opportunities as well. Wondering what those are. >> Absolutely. So, I'll kind of cover both, both sides of my business. I'll start with Jasper, Cisco Jasper. Our Cisco Jasper business is doing fabulously well. We added almost 10,000 devices last month alone, or last quarter, and we are on track to keep adding devices at a very fast pace, so very excited about that. We've just crossed 75 million. So, 75 million devices on Jasper. The last time we spoke, John, the number was 60 million. In addition, we've also seen many more enterprises adopting Jasper. >> John: Yeah. >> The last time we spoke it was 14,000, now it's over 16,400. (laughing) So, that number keeps growing. >> You'll see next month it'll be 20,000. (laughing) >> So, that number just keeps growing-- >> John: Yes. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> And that allows us to broaden our reach-- >> John: Yeah. >> Get into different use cases and drive incremental value for our customers. On the Kinetic side, as I mentioned we're seeing a lot of traction in the verticals that I laid out earlier, but specifically what we're finding now is customers are getting serious-- >> Take a minute to explain Kinetic for a second. >> Riaz: Sure. >> Just one minute and then get into it. >> Sure, so Kinetic our data fabric. It's our platform that allows us to extract data from all kinds of IT devices that are sitting on a corporate or a private network. It allows us to process that data at the Edge and then it allows us to transport the data to wherever the customer wants it to be. So, it's really our IOT platform, our data fabric at the core. The Kinetic business is doing great. We've had lots of update, there's actually a booth out here where they're demoing Kinetic. >> Lauren: Mm-hmm. >> I see a lot of people coming in and trying to understand it and we see people deploying Kinetic in more and more unique ways. We're working, for example, with a German manufacturer, a very prestigious German manufacturer that's now launching a pretty large project with Kinetic where they're using Kinetic to monitor the health of not just all their new machines, but also all the Braunfeld machines that they have installed over the past decade, right. So, we're very excited about that and very excited about the future. >> Well, great job, congratulations. Always great to talk with you. I think it's one of the exciting bright spots within Cisco with the IOT, certainly the DevNet developer program has been a huge success and that's only going to help you guys, and obviously the DevNet, create. You want some more software developers, you know, working on Kinetic and also Meraki and all these cool tools. So, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> More live coverage here, DevNet Creates, theCUBE in Silicon Valley in Mountain View, California. We'll be right back after this short break. (techy music playing)