>> Narrator: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's TheCUBE, covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Always excited when we get to talk to some of the users. And joining me this segment is Adam Furtado, who is the Chief of Product with Kessel Run at US Air Force. Adam, you were saying you're not a big Star Wars guy, but was the name come from the derivation of the famous Millennium Falcon Kessel Run? Yes, I am a Star Wars geek, you know. >> It certainly was and the rest of our team are Star Wars nuts, so I've had to pick up things along the way so I like to joke that we're delivering capability to our users in 12 parsecs or quicker. >> Yeah, and if you're not a, whether you are or aren't a Star Wars fan, you look at it and say, parsecs is a measure of distance, not time. That's still infuriating for us to watch. Adam, tell us a little bit about your background and what your group does that the US Air Force that we don't need to explain the US Air Force. >> Sure, so my background is actually an intelligence professional as a warfighter enlisted in the Air Force for ten years. From there, I started working in IT systems and I got out of the Air Force and really was on the acquisition side of the house where we were the provider for capabilities for our warfighters. So, over that time, I learned a lot about how we struggle with getting capability to our users with any kind of speed or quality. Kessel Run is an effort to revolutionize the way that we build and deliver software to our warfighters and we are well on our way. >> That sounds like an awesome project. Can you give us just roughly how do you get your arms around how big this is, how many applications or people are involved in it or, you know, the scope of what you're doing. >> Sure. We set out to modernize the Air and Space Operation Center so we have AOCs all around the world that basically are where all the planning for air warfare takes place. So it's a large legacy system that is under a lens. So, they've really struggled in modernizing that baseline system. We've been designing a brand new system to modernize for about ten years and we just haven't been able to get it to the field for a ton of DoD bureaucratic and acquisitions reasons. So basically, Congress told us to figure something new out. So we had a small team that was tired of working this way and tired of not being able to provide this capability to the warfighters. We got together and we looked at industry to be quite frank. And found that the other bureaucratic regulated industries were able to take steps to move closer towards our digital transformation. So we kind of followed along and took some practices that we learned from them and tried to apply it to the government. >> Yeah, fascinating space. Governments' big focus this week at the show, there was the announcement about Cloud.gov. There is a whole track on government here. But, I want you to talk about your Cloud Foundry usage. Button General? How's the thinking of modernization, digitalization, there was a big Cloud First initiative from the federal government for a while. How do those forces play together? >> Sure, yeah, there's a ton of innovation type of activities taking place throughout the government and the DoD. With Cloud Foundry, we just found that because of our, we frankly have a lack of software development and engineering talent that's inherent to the Air Force. We have actually a career field for software developers that's been dwindling over the years. So being able to find that talent's been really hard. So with our Cloud Foundry commercial platform, being able to abstract the technical complexity that it does allows us to grow our software developers in a different way, focusing on identifying the character traits, the empathy and learning mindset that we can take and grow them by having that platform as a backbone to kind of be our foundation, I guess, is really was the emphasis of us going in this direction. It's really worked out so far. >> Yeah, just going through my head are all these discussions that we've had for years about how we need to go from monolithic, hierarchical to distributive architectures and that's been happening in the military a lot too. >> Very much so, yeah. What we're trying to replace is that massive monolithic system that takes us ten years to design and develop with no meaningful user input and at the end of the day, if we even get it out to the field, it's not the right thing. 96% of federal IT projects are over budget or over schedule and 40% of them never see a user at all, never get fielded. There's a lot of room for improvement in this space. We've been able to kind of tackle some of the, some of the easier things, but also tackle some more complex things. Similar to technology. But the policy, the testing of the security behind it as well that we've been kind of focusing on to move the entire DoD and entire Air Force forward. >> Yeah. So, security, I would think, is a major concern. How does that fit in to your thinking and how does security fit in to your architecture? >> We're always thinking about security. Cyber security is obviously really important to the DoD and our space. We feel that with, being able to automate more of the security with utilizing a platform and the pipelines that we have gets to a better place and we're more secure today than we were yesterday. We're always learning too, right? So, we're more secure today than we were literally yesterday. And we're going to be more secure tomorrow by learning how to move forward and learn more about cyber security. That's always something on our mind and we feel like we're in a good place. >> The majority of Cloud Foundry users are doing, they're a private or private hosted environment. Can you share, do you leverage public clouds at all? Or is it all kind of in-house data centers? How does that fit into the mix? >> So our unclassified developments is the AWS gov cloud and then we have hybrid solutions that we use on other networks. >> Okay, yeah. AWS just launched that, I believe it's their secret region, too, so that they're capable, but I guess your team or you can't talk about it, isn't leveraging it yet. >> Yeah, I'd rather not go there. (laughs) >> No worries. So, you're speaking at this show. What's your experience, what kind of things are you sharing and working on? >> We're really heavily relying on culture. So we had a couple of our team members speak this morning, giving more of an overview of our efforts and what we've been able to achieve so far. I'm focusing on how we can overcome some of the challenges that are inherent to the DoD. I mentioned earlier, native engineering development and talent. How we can change the way that we do organizational management. Our traditional hierarchal top down way of organizing doesn't breed innovation normally, right? So we're looking at different ways to organize our own team. So one of those reasons, all of our dev teams work in a balanced team concept with no uniforms, all on a first name basis. So we're basically taking, uniforms are really to strip the individualism away from people, but we kind of need that for creativity and to be able to solve conflicts, problems, and things like that. So we're really focusing on lifting the psychological safety needed to be creative and have our lowest ranking people feel as comfortable as our highest ranking people and IDA and coming up with ways to do things. >> That's fascinating actually. We've been talking a lot about relationships between the groups and the devs and the operators, but you start putting rank in there, which any company has some of that inherently, but the military very much is physical when you see them all the time. >> Absolutely. It's actually, our airmen have really adapted to it and they love it. It's one of those things where it's interesting, maybe a little bit different than commercial industry in that our airmen are our developers and our airmen are also our users so there's invested interest in improving things for the better for their fellow airmen. It's been really great to see and people have really dove in and embraced it. Developers are doing really well. >> What kind of lessons learned would you share? That you're sharing in your speech and talking to your peers. What kind of things would you share with them? >> I think the biggest thing I'm talking about today is to avoid getting in this trap of trying to find the perfect person with the right technical acumen. I think having a foundation is important, but more important is finding people who have empathy for users and learning mindsets and are able to get out of their comfort zone and learn new things. Building cloud innovative applications and 12 factor applications are inherently new to the DoD effectively. It's funny, we talk about how dev options, you know, innovative in our world when the commercial industry probably scoffs at that, but innovation is defined as the instruction of something new. It really is innovative in the DoD space to work in this way. We're seeing a lot of momentum throughout the services, and the DoD and we're really heading in the right direction. >> It's great to hear. Innovation and government can happen. We've done lots of interviews over the last few years to talk about it. Anything you'd like to share about ways that your organization or peer organizations are moving things forward that people might be surprised to hear about? >> I'd say the most important thing is finding the right people. A lot of the times, we've found that our most senior leadership in the government is very much interested in innovating and moving things forward in the right way and there's this innovation ecosystem below that is driving things. So it's basically the education that needs to happen at the middle level of that frozen middle. That sometimes can thwart innovation by a lack of that knowledge, I guess, or the lack of understanding of what we're doing. We've got what feels like a parade of education and trying to share the things we've learned with other people in the government. It helps us remove some of those bureaucratic barriers and then it's like really progress where we need to. >> Alright, Adam, last question I have for you. Something we're all struggling with, the pace of change these days. Seems every time you get on a new technology, the next one's there. You mentioned, you know, like, well, dev ops, we've been talking about for years but you're getting on. How does your organization look at that? How do you keep up with what's happening in the world? >> So I think, Cloud Foundry is an example of how these commercial solutions have helped us do that. Now, we say like, speed is the new security, we're able to be truly agile in that we're able to change and adapt to things as we need to. I think in the old model, it took us so long to adapt and get things out into the field that change was almost impossible. Whereas in this way of working, we're able to learn things every single day, keep our learning loops very short, and then react to them. So I think it's been a great way to take some of the things we've learned and implement them. >> Adam Furtado, I really appreciate you sharing your story from the US Air Force. Fascinating stuff. We'll be back with more coverage here at the Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching theCUBE. (bouncy music)

>>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >>Welcome to this Special Cube conversation. We're gonna unpack and have a casual conversation around the big news that VM Ware just announced the sphere 7.7 point. Oh, or V. Sphere seven. Chris Prasad, senior vice president, General manager of the Sphere Cloud Platform Business unit. Paul Turner, VP of product. Guys, we just chatted about the big news. Congratulations. Um, the bottom line, if I'm a customer, I'm moving into the cloud. I see this as really an either an enabler or blocker. You guys actually think it's an enabler? Um, I'm not saying it's a blocker, but as a customer, I just need to know, Is it going to help me go faster? I'm going cloud, Which means I've been told I got to get on the cloud you got Amazon might have azure or multiple clouds with workloads sitting around. I gotta pull them all together and make them work. But right now, I just got to get my operations cloud native necessarily kind of pressure point. >>Oh, for sure. One of the biggest drivers that you see happen in the industry right now is kubernetes. Why? Why is kubernetes taking off communities taking off because it gives you cloud independence. It gives you the ability to run with same operating model, whether it's in Google Cloud, Amazon's Cloud, Microsoft Cloud or any other cloud service. What we're doing with version seven instruction bring that same kubernetes cloud independent operating model directly in divisor. So now all of your infrastructure platforms that are out there, 90% of I T environments are all kubernetes ready platforms on. That's really powerful. So what we've done is just taken a totally different kind of, um ah, scope on how cloud should be Cloud should be any cloud. It should be independent of one particular flavor of it and on developers should be able to work then in a much more agile way. >>You just see, I've been following VM where you know my career since it was founded. And, you know, with the Cube coverage over the years is they see the innovation. You guys do a lot of great stuff. Of course, we keep on our teams to minimum. And David Lantz he made some good calls with these v san. We saw the early stuff with V Cloud Air Kind of saw that kind of going in this direction, But it's been really innovation going on around you guys. I'll see with NSX has exploded and V Sphere has been the core thing. As you guys look at the cloud model, you guys made some good moves with Amazon. I've always felt that you guys could be that Switzerland that that layer of connection points between as enterprise really moved from old way of provisioning, too much more seamless operating model where they have a deal with cyber security. They gotta deal with all the stuff that's going to come from APS that's going to come from the APP store. When you bought Hep D Oh, I was like, That's actually really smart move. You started bringing that cloud native vibe into V sphere, and that's what's essentially happening here. Isn't it? >>Exactly. This is like the the coming out party for that, like it's V Sphere having all the hefty oh goodness embedded in it. And what they would see is that because we have such a huge presence in the on Prem space, this provides the fastest bad for customers to get to the cloud. So today I mean this? I don't want this point to be lost on the today. You know, we are running the same VM Ware Cloud Foundation, our on Prem on Amazon in Google and many of the same code base. Same code base, right? It's the exact same thing. So now what does that give you as a customer? It gives you the same operational model across all these clouds. Because customers today, we thought that they're setting up set of processes and tools or Amazon. Then you go to Azure. You're doing a different set than their training people to do that. And, you know, you could get into compliance and other issues where things fall through the cracks. Right? When you do that here, the same platform you said your policies wants it applies to all the clouds. You can move your workloads between clouds, right? That's a V motion. Essentially, we don't know the >>last kept on that one, but that's ideal would be crippled >>today. It is happening today and we have thousands of other partners which are the tier two service providers who are all also offering that. So we have a huge grab off these providers are in which we live in the same platform. >>Yeah, I want to add something else, actually, to that as well. Which is? This is an open platform, which is really powerful, right? This is based on kubernetes for developers, which means you can run on the V sphere platform, and that is a hybrid infrastructure that is the most ubiquitous infrastructure out there. But if you actually want to take your application actually deployed onto a native application Native Cloud, you can do that as well. Um, and so it's very important for us to keep the platform open while making broadest available on >>Dev ops. I mean, first, I totally agree. I think open wins, But the end of the day, I think this operating consistency is a big story because it's kind of like nuance. But it is really the most important customers care about, because if you're operating successfully seamlessly across cloud, it's better. So the question I have on the Dev Op side because the dream has always been infrastructure as code. So are you guys there with this? Do you consider this V Sphere seven kind of infrastructures code from a developer? Is it all being taken care of. How close are we in your mind's eye to infrastructure as code. >>Now it's 100% there. I mean, we made the announcement around Hangzhou, which is a set off other products and capabilities that we add to what the sphere has and that whole stack. And the solution is for this targeted at the modern developer. So we have all the capabilities that the developers need to do infrastructure as scored, to deploy their applications and deployed across all these clouds. >>And I want I want to add to that the infrastructure as code really has two parts to it. We look at how do I provide the developers infrastructure's code, which is what we're doing with kubernetes enablement and we have our V San product is available. In fact, all storage services from V sphere available through that andare NSX services are available through kubernetes. So you've got full infrastructures code for developers. But infrastructures code also means how do you deploy large scale infrastructures and manage them as code? How do people actually manage the operations and the deployment of services? And so you're right in your admin team actually have a full layer of enhanced lifecycle management provisioning off configurations and settings across infrastructure. All of that is now managed, as >>that's almost under the hood kind of stuff. But that's important because networking is going to play a big role in all of this from a security standpoint and also compute storage. Pretty much looking, looking good, but networking becomes a huge part of what's under the hood. >>Yeah, I mean, look at networking is what enables us to connect all these clouds together, right? And NSX being the underlying platform for us enables us to have one single layer across all these clouds with the same operating model. So NSX is very critical. >>I want to get your guys thoughts on some little history lesson here or scar tissue, as we say in the industry. You know, I remember back during the Hadoop days, 2010 the big data movement hit, and it was just going to save us all. It's gonna be great, but what ended up happening was this very hard to stand up these clusters and what happened was the commitment the vision was there, but it was just really hard to manage and stand up clusters and hire people to do this. So it has some use cases, but it just really kind of fell down. We saw Open Stack have a similar trajectory where good on paper, things had used cases. But it's just so hard to manage the trends. We're moving very, very fast. Cloud was here. Cloud Computing kind of took everyone by storm and just got rid of all those things. And so they kind of dying. >>No. But if you think about why open Stack didn't go anywhere in the end, it's because of the operational complexity right? It took a lot to set it up, and he had essentially invest a lot more than keeping it running right. And then what we're doing is saying you don't have to worry about that aspect because it's built into the platform that you already know, right? So we have taken that complexity out completely, and so you just have this fear. The administrators know how to set up and run and do life cycle, and this year, and you get kubernetes, go >>back to my original question. If that's the case, which, by the way, I think that's the way to think about it. Then I found the customer acceleration. I can draft up with the movement of cloud as fast as I can Go is having any kind of blockers. >>Fastest lamb like cloud >>ran to the cloud >>and fastest fastest ramp to a cloud operating model, which means that all of your developers can now actually run as quickly as they can, building their applications independent of I t. In a much more dynamic way. So you want to move to that cloud operating model. That's why Kubernetes is so important on the infrastructure side. We've actually, of course, made it a much easier platform to manage. But but it's the agility that matters. >>You guys have done some great innovation. I think you've got a good ear to the market, made some good moves. Looking good. This is a great vision. I got to get your guys take on the edge. Big discussion. Five g. Certain years love that kind of vision. But the end of the day and edge. Now, if you talk about cloud operations, everything's an edge, right? So what does edge mean for V sphere? How do you guys look at the edge of the network. And as these applications with the sensors or whatever happening at the edges, How does this V Sphere look at that? How do you guys look? >>So, uh, for let me just I would say that, you know, we we have, ah, data center edge, right? We just think of it as, um, retail stores, Starbucks, right. They have a kind of a mini data center application running there. That's one kind of edge that people talk about. Then you have the kind of the telco edge, but a lot of the crossing of the five year data is happening, right? Where the cell tower, Selden. We're done. And then you have the devices. You just the cars, the You know what you have at home and we're not right. And then and we can play across all of these because we have the platform. I don't know if you know, but ah, v sphere, as the platform is, is embedded in many devices today. It's in the army. It's embarking leaders it. So it has a form factor that can live in all these devices. We certainly play in the data center, so we're well suited to play the >>piece for anywhere. >>Yeah, that is exactly right. >>I think we're already We're already at the data center edge, as we've talked about that is, it's a very common deployment use case for earlier versions of the sphere, and it will continue to be the value that you guys it's not not new at all. I think the telco edge is actually a very interesting one, particularly the five G switch over. So you know what's happening. There is. There's a whole radio access networks and you're looking at the V Ron as a big initiative there. Which is how do we bring virtualization as a service they're into into those networks? Container deployments becomes very important as well. So we actually have a platform with version seven that actually can give the telco edge and five G network deployments a much more secure, predictable runtime environment. So that's really powerful as well. And it's containers and VMS because many of those applications that are deployed a telco edge our container based applications. >>It's interesting, you know, we talk about stacks in our last segment and you guys talking about the news and now having all these stacks later on. But think about the evolution of the industry with cloud. A whole new sets of services are emerging mentioned Telco Edge. So it just looks different. What's the same kind of open model that open systems brought us, but just a little bit different? It's a distributed cloud security computer, same concepts, new new capabilities. >>Not just to add to that, I mean the biggest innovation John is happening in the hardware layer by the computer, sort of getting disaggregated. There is a lot of acceleration that is going on that are specialized chips, a six effigies that are being built into the servers and and memory's getting pulled outside because the interconnect is getting fast enough for those things to happen. And so a lot of the innovation that we do as a platform that we didn't talk about much today is really a data layer, because we had to virtual eyes all of that and provide it to the level. Of course, >>yeah, it's great. It's a great architecture. I think I just add more complexity that's coming and you guys can help. Abstract away is you just look at cybersecurity and the role of data. You got to get in front of all these these trends to get that automation dev ops going because without any automation and software is just people can't handle the inbounds. It's a big problem. >>Yeah, you really need, um, your platforms to provide intrinsic security. It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be an option. It shouldn't be something the developers need to worry about. It should be something that's just part of the platform. And that's one of the things that we see is critical and actually built into Visa or seven. And you've seen that we've made a number of acquisitions recently. Actually, in the security piece, it's it's so that we can purposely build into your runtime environment, which is your VM environment container environment that we're running. We actually build in intrinsic security would build in a dynamic checking off the scope of an application in real time. Um, while those applications running, which is very key. >>Paul, >>Thanks for sharing all that great stuff. I want to get one final thought for both of you before we wrap up is we've been seeing and we've been reporting kind of the three ways of the cloud wave one was public. We all kind of know how that turned out. Awesome Cloud Native Born in the Cloud Wave two is well right now with a lot of intensity hybrid that's got a range of definitions. And then the third wave that's coming fast is multi cloud. So I want to get your thoughts on hybrid. A lot of energy, a lot of spend a lot of dollars investment in hard causing people in hybrid. I know we have different definitions. Is also different versions of hybrid. How do you define hybrid? And how does that become a path to the next wave? Or is it a path of next wave? What's your take? >>So it's absolutely the bad the next, I would say the hybrid, in our view, is the same platform running on which cloud do you want to use in our platform, as we talked about spans all the major clouds today giving the same operating model, and that's what we view as the hybrid cloud story. But the next one is the ability to mix native cloud workloads and services with that, and we already have a set of products and services that target that it's the times. A portfolio that I talked about is all focused on the multi cloud journey. So we kind of support both, and we're looking forward and aggressively going after the multi cloud. >>I think it's important to think of them as is completely complimentary of each other, right? A hybrid infrastructure platforms. So you know, a single I T organization can actually have one operating experience for their entire infrastructure, independent of Cloud Private Cloud Public Cloud Services. But Multi Cloud is about developers. It's about developers able to deploy their applications on any cloud environment that they need to, and they don't need to worry about infrastructure. So hybrid cloud is really about, ah, hybrid infrastructure that we can deploy everywhere, multi cloud and the services that we're providing to developers is all about how you could be independent of any cloud deployment that you want. It could be a hybrid infrastructure you deploy on. It could be on a standard public cloud service, >>and what's interesting is not. Not not all clouds are created equal. I mean, Amazon has much more capability in Azure and Google, but they're finding their swim lanes. But again it's all about the workload. The workload decides which cloud to work on. And that's right. You guys just agnostic? Yes, For the operator. Well, well, Thanks for the insight, guys. Appreciate you did a little post wrap of the news. Thanks for hiring. Thank you. Big news. These fear seven Q breakdown here. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching, >>right? Yeah.

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage, it's theCUBE, covering VMworld 2019. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Well, welcome back everyone. Live CUBE coverage here in San Francisco, California for VMworld 2019. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, Dave 10 years continues, day one of three days of wall to wall coverage. Mark Lohmeyer, Senior Vice President, Cloud Platform Business Unit and general manager at the VMware, manage cloud for VMware. Great to see you again. >> Great to see you, yeah, thank you. >> So you got, you're managing all the VMware manage cloud on AWS and Dell EMC? >> Right. >> Which was a big part of today's keynote. Obviously a big part of your investments, so you know, you always look at someone's commitment to something. How they spend their resources and their time. So give us an update obviously a lot of resources on the VMware side. >> Mark: Right. >> To make this run, what customers want. Give us an update on what's going on. >> Yeah, yeah I mean so first of all VMware Cloud and AWS, I mean, we're really pleased with the momentum we're seeing for that in the marketplace. So, we compared what it looks like today versus a year ago. And we were talking about it, a year ago and we've increased the number of customers by 4x on the service. We've increased the numbers of VM's on the service by 9x. That's kind of interesting 'cause it shows you that you know, we're adding both new customers as well as existing customers are expanding their investment. So, that's great to see, right? And it's powered by a lot of the compelling Use Cases. You may have heard Pat or others talk about most notably, cloud migrations. You know from an investment perspective which is I think where you sort of started the question you know, significant investment from both VMware as well as AWS the end of the service. You know we say it's jointly engineered and that is absolutely the case. I mean we literally have hundreds of engineers that are optimizing the VMware software to be delivered as a service on top of the AWS infrastructure. >> And that's a lot just to get nuance on this point. Because in the press coverage, I've seen all the press coverage from the Microsoft and the Google. This is different than just Cloud Foundation because you're talking about something completely different. This is jointly engineered. These are specific, unique things. >> Yeah, I mean with the sort of distinction I would sort of articulate there is that in the case of VMware Cloud on AWS, it's a VMware managed, operated, supported, delivered service. Right, so it's our engineers that are pushing the bits into production in AWS. It's our engineers if there's an incident that deal with the you know, with the situation. You know, it's literally a service operated by us. In the case of what we're doing with Azure and GCP, you know first of all from a customer perspective what we heard them telling us is, I think many customers are using Azure, many customers are using GCP and they'd like to have the ability to have that same VMware consistent software stack on those clouds. But the operational model is different. So in those two cases there's a partner called CloudSimple. Who's a VCPP partner and they're taking our standard VMware Cloud Foundation software that customers use on Prem and they are operating and delivering that as a Cloud service on top of those Cloud platforms. >> Just to review so VMware Cloud on AWS and Outposts both your responsibility, there's two way street there? >> Yup. (laughing) >> Which is rare with Amazon usually it's a one way street. My words not yours. But so, and, so you manage both sides of that? Is that correct? >> Mark: Yeah, that's right, that's right. >> So you're happy to sell either one? >> Absolutely, yup. >> Right, and then the Dell EMC version is kind of the on Prem version of Outposts, if you will. Is that a fair characterization? >> Mark: Yeah, yeah, so. >> Without the public cloud. >> Yeah, I mean absolutely, I think one of the interesting things was you know, we've been in market now with the VMware Cloud on AWS for a couple years. And, you know it's going great but one of the things we've heard from customers was, "Hey, we sort of really like this VMware managed cloud model where you're taking all of the heavy lifting of worrying about the Lifecycle of the VMware software. Worrying about the you know upgrades to the hardware, you're taking that all off of our plate. But why can't we have that same cloud delivery model back on Prem?", right and so, that was the impetus for what we originally announced as Project Dimension and now we're launching this week as VMware Cloud on Dell EMC. >> So all the benefits go with the Dell infrastructure hardware? >> So, I got to ask you, so one are the attributes of those those solutions, is they're highly homogenous, right? And, Andy Jassy made a big deal about that same Control Plane, same Data Plane. >> Mark: Right. >> So my question is, help me square the circle with MultiCloud which is highly heterogeneous? (laughing) So, can I have my cake and eat it, too? Can I have this, you know unified vision of the world? This controlled, same compliance, government security, EDIx, management etc, and have all this heterogeneity? How does that? >> Yeah, so I think, I mean to me it starts from what the customer would like to do, right? And what we're seeing from customers is it's increasingly a MultiCloud world, right. That expands spans private cloud, public cloud and Ed. >> Dave: You're smiling when you say that. >> Mark: Yeah, now, now-- >> The chaos is an opportunity for VM. (laughing) >> Yeah, but it's a challenge for customers, right? And so, if you look at how VMware is trying to help there if you say sort of square the circle. I think that first piece is this idea of consistent operations, right. Then we have these management tools that you can use to consistently operate those environments, whether they're based on a VMware based infrastructure or whether they're based on a native cloud infrastructure. Right, so if you look at our cloud health platform for example, it's a great example where that service can help you under, get visibility to your cloud spend across different cloud platforms. Also B service platforms. It can help you reduce that spend over time. So that's sort of what we refer to as consistent operations. Right, which can span any cloud. You know what my team is responsible for is more in the consistent infrastructures base and that's really all about how do we deliver consistent compute network and storage service that spans on Prem, multiple public clouds and Edge. So that's really where we're bringing that same VMware Cloud Foundation stack to all those different environments. >> Mark, I want to get your thoughts on what Pat Gelsinger said on the keynote. He said, "modernize and migrate or migrate and modernize" he also mentioned live migrate as a big feature. >> Mark: Yes, yes. >> On the modernize and migrate and migrate then modernize, they basically pick one and people are doing both. >> Mark: Right, right, right. >> What's he mean by that give us some examples and then what's the impact to the customer? Is it just the behavior of the customer? >> Yeah, I mean, it varies a little bit based on what the customer's trying to accomplish. But you know the one thing I'll say is that, you know, historically it was a little bit tough to have that choice. Right, so you know the sort of the thought was, hey I have to like re-factor and re-platform everything upfront just to be able to get it to the public cloud. And then once it's there I can sort of start to modernize. I think in that can be a multi-year process, right? >> Yeah. >> I think one of the really interesting opportunities that we've opened up for customers with VMware Cloud on AWS is you don't necessarily have to re-factor everything just to be able to get to the public cloud. We could help them migrate to the public cloud very quickly without requiring any changes if they don't want to. And then when they're there, they can modernize at their own pace based on the needs of the business. All right, and so I think having that additional option is actually quite useful for customers that want to get to the cloud quickly and then from there begin to modernize. >> So two main paths with migration and modernize as the easiest one given the managed service. >> Yeah, yeah, and but you know that being said, I think also you see a set of customers that say "Look, sort of digital transformation and modernization is my primary goal." Right, and for them by enabling some of these things like Native Kupernetes as a service in vSphere and in VMware Cloud and AWS by enabling this AI and ML workloads with a Nivida partnership for that classic customers, they can also just start with the modernization piece, right? Directly on the-- >> So the migrate to modernize would be a lift in shift essentially and then modernize? >> Mark: Ah-hm. >> And that's what Amazon wants you to do? But, you're giving customers a choice, is what I'm-- >> Mark: We have, yeah no, I mean look at the end of the day I think both VMware and AWS believe strongly in understanding what customers are looking for and making sure we're delivering that value to them. And I think you know, this is one of the compelling new options that we've enabled for customers, I think with VMworld Cloud on AWS is that we could take a migration project that would have previously taken three years and we could do it in a few months. >> You know Mark I had a chance to talk to Carl Eschenbach two weeks ago before the show. He came in for an interview Sequoia Capital, Carl Eschenbach, former COO of VMware been there for years. He was part of the deal with AWS, graphing that deal. We were talking about the moment and time where your stock price started to move up this October 2016. That's right when the deal was announced. Since then the stock price has been up. For a lot of reasons, we've talked on theCUBE before. The question I have for you is, what have you learned? What surprises you from this relationship? Because one the clarity was easy, meet Cloud Air, no more. This is our cloud strategy. All on AWS and MultiCloud as it develops you certainly have had to clarify with customers. But now that you entered the managed service, what new things have popped up that might not have been on your radar? What did you expect? What are some surprises from this relationship from a customer behavior standpoint? >> Yeah, that's a real interesting question. So, I think you know in the early days we sort of had this concept of "Hey, let's enable the full VMware capabilities on AWS." And we were sort of talking about it as a tech, almost like a technical solution, right? And what, what we could enable. I think sort of what quickly became apparent is hey, sort of behind that technical approach there's actually some really compelling Use Cases here. And I think that, if I think back to two years ago, I don't think we fully anticipated how compelling this cloud migration Use Case would be. I mean I don't think we really realized internally within VMware how hard it was for customers before to do that. And, I think customers didn't realize sort of how much easier and faster and lower cost that we could make it for them with this type of service. So I think that one, although we were maybe talking about it a little bit in the early days. I think it surprised me at least at how sort of broad based the customer interest was in that type of capability. >> Any other broader market interest on things that were surprises or not surprises that are compelling? >> I mean, you know the other thing I wouldn't say it's a surprise per se, but I mean, I think the partnership with AWS has been fantastic. Right, I mean we sort of went into it, I think in the right way between Pat and Andy and focused on doing something meaningful together. The relationship has only gotten sort of deeper and deeper over time. And, one of the interesting things about it is that relationship spans not just engineering and product management and product strategy which is sort of my neck of the woods. But also the marketing organizations, the sales organizations, the support organizations. So it's, it's become I think a very deep partnership. We're able to speak to each other very openly and trying to solve together the, you know the problems that customers are putting in front of us. >> And what's with Outposts, what's the new update on Outposts? >> Yeah, yeah so you know no news on Outposts today obviously but we're working very closely with AWS to enable the VMware Cloud on AWS Outposts model second half of this year. And, the customer interest has just been fantastic, right. And in many ways it's basically the exact same value prop of VMC on AWS in terms-- >> In reverse. >> But, but in reverse and anywhere you want, right, at your door step, right, any Edge, any data center, so. >> I got to ask you, back to the AWS relationship. We were big fans of it always have been. Learned from both sides and believe in it. Having said that, EC2 is the bread and butter for Amazon despite it's hundreds and hundreds of services. That's where their revenue comes from, and compute, your compute business is you know, significant. So my question is, is it a zero some game long-term or when you look at the tam do you see all these other services that you can sell longer term providing you know, the growth engine for your respective companies? Or, does this whole you know, rising tide lift both boats, what are your thoughts on that? >> Yeah, I mean it's clearly rising tide lifts both boats. I mean, again I'll, I always bring it back to the customer right, 'cause that's the way I like to view the world and AWS-- >> And you've got some evidence now that's why I'm asking. >> Yeah and I mean what you're seeing is actually I mean if you take some of these customer examples. Let me give you one from the UK. So, Stagecoach. I don't know if you heard about these guys. But they're a major, so they provide transportation services in the UK, and other countries as well. So, they run a network of buses, trains and they're responsible for the transportation of three million commuters every day in the UK. So, they have this really mission critical application that they're building that is basically responsible for scheduling those buses and those trains and scheduling the conductors and the operators. So you can imagine this application is super mission critical for their business, right. And, they chose to run that application on VMware Cloud on AWS and one of the reasons they chose that is because we have a unique capability called stretch clustering. >> Sure. >> Which says "Hey, even if there's an issue in one AZ we can restart that application in a second AZ. So there's a really good reason for the customer to choose it. But now back to your question, right? If you think about the opportunity in that for both VM or in AWS, it's meaningful, right? You know, for us, we're selling the entire VMware Cloud on AWS service to that customer across those two AZ's for mission critical workload that's core to their business. For AWS, they're able to of course not only supply the infrastructure that we run on top of but also as that customer looks to do more interesting things they can attach an additional native AWS services, right? So, you know I think that's a great example where delivering value to the customer and if you focus on that the right things will kind of flow back to the companies that help make that possible. >> Good partnering helps you reduce friction and get to market faster. Thinking about the intense effort that both you know, Pat's described, Andy Jassy described, you've described in terms of that partnership, that deep engineering. Can you do multiples of those or is it that you don't because of the respect for the partnership or is it too intense and it's too resource intensive? How many of these types of partnerships can you actually have? >> Well I mean and I think Pat has said it pretty clearly, right? I mean AWS is our primary preferred partner, right. And, what we're doing with them is very unique, right? And it's something that we want to make sure that we have the right level of investment in and that we do an amazingly good job of, right. And I think they feel the same way. And so having that focus together between the two companies. I think is what, has allowed us to be you know, achieve some of the level of success we've had to date and we expect to do that going forward. >> Mark, final question for you. What's your objective this year in your business unit? What's your focus? What are some of the things that you're working on that people should know about? >> Yeah, so first of all. I had VMware Cloud VD but that's just to wrap that up I think the big thing we're focused on going forward is really this modernization kind of piece of the story. How do we enable Native Kupernetes in the service? How do we enable ML and AI workloads in this service? How do we do a better job of connecting to all of the AWS services? So, you're going to see a big kind of focus, there. Beyond VMware Cloud AWS, I mean we're really excited about bringing this VMC model back on Prem both with Dell and on top of AWS Outposts. I mean the customer interest has been, you know fantastic, right? And, you think about all the reasons that customers want to be able to run their applications, you know on Prem, data locality, latency, compliance, all sorts of really good reasons. We think that those services have really hit a sweet spot of that market. >> IT as a managed service, what an interesting idea, don't you think? (laughing) >> Mark: Yeah. >> Whole nother level same game, whole new ball game, right? >> Absolutely! >> Mark, thanks for sharing your insight. Congratulations on your success and we'll be following it. VMware Manage Solutions AWS certainly a big hit. Changed the game for the company and now they're bringing Dell EMC among other potential business model opportunities for customers. As Cloud 2.0 comes as theCUBE's coverage. Live at VMworld 2019, be right back with more from San Francisco after this short break. (bright music)

>> Live from Midtown Manhattan, it's theCUBE. Covering BigData New York City 2017. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media and its ecosystem sponsors. (calm electronic music) >> Basil Faruqui, who's the Solutions Marketing Manger at BMC, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, good to be back on theCUBE. >> So first of all, heard you guys had a tough time in Houston, so hope everything's gettin' better, and best wishes to everyone down in-- >> We're definitely in recovery mode now. >> Yeah and so hopefully that can get straightened out quick. What's going on with BMC? Give us a quick update in context to BigData NYC. What's happening, what is BMC doing in the big data space now, the AI space now, the IOT space now, the cloud space? >> So like you said that, you know, the data link space, the IOT space, the AI space, there are four components of this entire picture that literally haven't changed since the beginning of computing. If you look at those four components of a data pipeline it's ingestion, storage, processing, and analytics. What keeps changing around it, is the infrastructure, the types of data, the volume of data, and the applications that surround it. And the rate of change has picked up immensely over the last few years with Hadoop coming in to the picture, public cloud providers pushing it. It's obviously creating a number of challenges, but one of the biggest challenges that we are seeing in the market, and we're helping costumers address, is a challenge of automating this and, obviously, the benefit of automation is in scalability as well and reliability. So when you look at this rather simple data pipeline, which is now becoming more and more complex, how do you automate all of this from a single point of control? How do you continue to absorb new technologies, and not re-architect our automation strategy every time, whether it's it Hadoop, whether it's bringing in machine learning from a cloud provider? And that is the issue we've been solving for customers-- >> Alright let me jump into it. So, first of all, you mention some things that never change, ingestion, storage, and what's the third one? >> Ingestion, storage, processing and eventually analytics. >> And analytics. >> Okay so that's cool, totally buy that. Now if your move and say, hey okay, if you believe that standard, but now in the modern era that we live in, which is complex, you want breath of data, but also you want the specialization when you get down to machine limits highly bounded, that's where the automation is right now. We see the trend essentially making that automation more broader as it goes into the customer environments. >> Correct >> How do you architect that? If I'm a CXO, or I'm a CDO, what's in it for me? How do I architect this? 'Cause that's really the number one thing, as I know what the building blocks are, but they've changed in their dynamics to the market place. >> So the way I look at it, is that what defines success and failure, and particularly in big data projects, is your ability to scale. If you start a pilot, and you spend three months on it, and you deliver some results, but if you cannot roll it out worldwide, nationwide, whatever it is, essentially the project has failed. The analogy I often given is Walmart has been testing the pick-up tower, I don't know if you've seen. So this is basically a giant ATM for you to go pick up an order that you placed online. They're testing this at about a hundred stores today. Now if that's a success, and Walmart wants to roll this out nation wide, how much time do you think their IT department's going to have? Is this a five year project, a ten year project? No, and the management's going to want this done six months, ten months. So essentially, this is where automation becomes extremely crucial because it is now allowing you to deliver speed to market and without automation, you are not going to be able to get to an operational stage in a repeatable and reliable manner. >> But you're describing a very complex automation scenario. How can you automate in a hurry without sacrificing the details of what needs to be? In other words, there would seem to call for repurposing or reusing prior automation scripts and rules, so forth. How can the Walmart's of the world do that fast, but also do it well? >> Yeah so we do it, we go about it in two ways. One is that out of the box we provide a lot of pre-built integrations to some of the most commonly used systems in an enterprise. All the way from the Mainframes, Oracles, SAPs, Hadoop, Tableaus of the world, they're all available out of the box for you to quickly reuse these objects and build an automated data pipeline. The other challenge we saw, and particularly when we entered the big data space four years ago was that the automation was something that was considered close to the project becoming operational. Okay, and that's where a lot of rework happened because developers had been writing their own scripts using point solutions, so we said alright, it's time to shift automation left, and allow companies to build automations and artifact very early in the developmental life cycle. About a month ago, we released what we call Control-M Workbench, its essentially a community edition of Control-M, targeted towards developers so that instead of writing their own scripts, they can use Control-M in a completely offline manner, without having to connect to an enterprise system. As they build, and test, and iterate, they're using Control-M to do that. So as the application progresses through the development life cycle, and all of that work can then translate easily into an enterprise edition of Control-M. >> Just want to quickly define what shift left means for the folks that might not know software methodologies, they don't think >> Yeah, so. of left political, left or right. >> So, we're not shifting Control-M-- >> Alt-left, alt-right, I mean, this is software development, so quickly take a minute and explain what shift left means, and the importance of it. >> Correct, so if you think of software development as a straight line continuum, you've got, you will start with building some code, you will do some testing, then unit testing, then user acceptance testing. As it moves along this chain, there was a point right before production where all of the automation used to happen. Developers would come in and deliver the application to Ops and Ops would say, well hang on a second, all this Crontab, and these other point solutions we've been using for automation, that's not what we use in production, and we need you to now go right in-- >> So test early and often. >> Test early and often. So the challenge was the developers, the tools they used were not the tools that were being used on the production end of the site. And there was good reason for it, because developers don't need something really heavy and with all the bells and whistles early in the development lifecycle. Now Control-M Workbench is a very light version, which is targeted at developers and focuses on the needs that they have when they're building and developing it. So as the application progresses-- >> How much are you seeing waterfall-- >> But how much can they, go ahead. >> How much are you seeing waterfall, and then people shifting left becoming more prominent now? What percentage of your customers have moved to Agile, and shifting left percentage wise? >> So we survey our customers on a regular basis, and the last survey showed that eighty percent of the customers have either implemented a more continuous integration delivery type of framework, or are in the process of doing it, And that's the other-- >> And getting close to a 100 as possible, pretty much. >> Yeah, exactly. The tipping point is reached. >> And what is driving. >> What is driving all is the need from the business. The days of the five year implementation timelines are gone. This is something that you need to deliver every week, two weeks, and iteration. >> Iteration, yeah, yeah. And we have also innovated in that space, and the approach we call jobs as code, where you can build entire complex data pipelines in code format, so that you can enable the automation in a continuous integration and delivery framework. >> I have one quick question, Jim, and I'll let you take the floor and get a word in soon, but I have one final question on this BMC methodology thing. You guys have a history, obviously BMC goes way back. Remember Max Watson CEO, and Bob Beach, back in '97 we used to chat with him, dominated that landscape. But we're kind of going back to a systems mindset. The question for you is, how do you view the issue of this holy grail, the promised land of AI and machine learning, where end-to-end visibility is really the goal, right? At the same time, you want bounded experiences at root level so automation can kick in to enable more activity. So there's a trade-off between going for the end-to-end visibility out of the gate, but also having bounded visibility and data to automate. How do you guys look at that market? Because customers want the end-to-end promise, but they don't want to try to get there too fast. There's a diseconomies of scale potentially. How do you talk about that? >> Correct. >> And that's exactly the approach we've taken with Control-M Workbench, the Community Edition, because earlier on you don't need capabilities like SLA management and forecasting and automated promotion between environments. Developers want to be able to quickly build and test and show value, okay, and they don't need something that is with all the bells and whistles. We're allowing you to handle that piece, in that manner, through Control-M Workbench. As things progress and the application progresses, the needs change as well. Well now I'm closer to delivering this to the business, I need to be able to manage this within an SLA, I need to be able to manage this end-to-end and connect this to other systems of record, and streaming data, and clickstream data, all of that. So that, we believe that it doesn't have to be a trade off, that you don't have to compromise speed and quality for end-to-end visibility and enterprise grade automation. >> You mentioned trade offs, so the Control-M Workbench, the developer can use it offline, so what amount of testing can they possibly do on a complex data pipeline automation when the tool's offline? I mean it seems like the more development they do offline, the greater the risk that it simply won't work when they go into production. Give us a sense for how they mitigate, the mitigation risk in using Control-M Workbench. >> Sure, so we spend a lot of time observing how developers work, right? And very early in the development stage, all they're doing is working off of their Mac or their laptop, and they're not really connected to any. And that is where they end up writing a lot of scripts, because whatever code business logic they've written, the way they're going to make it run is by writing scripts. And that, essentially, becomes the problem, because then you have scripts managing more scripts, and as the application progresses, you have this complex web of scripts and Crontabs and maybe some opensource solutions, trying to simply make all of this run. And by doing this on an offline manner, that doesn't mean that they're losing all of the other Control-M capabilities. Simply, as the application progresses, whatever automation that the builtin Control-M can seamlessly now flow into the next stage. So when you are ready to take an application into production, there's essentially no rework required from an automation perspective. All of that, that was built, can now be translated into the enterprise-grade Control M, and that's where operations can then go in and add the other artifacts, such as SLA management and forecasting and other things that are important from an operational perspective. >> I'd like to get both your perspectives, 'cause, so you're like an analyst here, so Jim, I want you guys to comment. My question to both of you would be, lookin' at this time in history, obviously in the BMC side we mention some of the history, you guys are transforming on a new journey in extending that capability of this world. Jim, you're covering state-of-the-art AI machine learning. What's your take of this space now? Strata Data, which is now Hadoop World, which is Cloud Air went public, Hortonworks is now public, kind of the big, the Hadoop guys kind of grew up, but the world has changed around them, it's not just about Hadoop anymore. So I'd like to get your thoughts on this kind of perspective, that we're seeing a much broader picture in big data in NYC, versus the Strata Hadoop show, which seems to be losing steam, but I mean in terms of the focus. The bigger focus is much broader, horizontally scalable. And your thoughts on the ecosystem right now? >> Let the Basil answer fist, unless Basil wants me to go first. >> I think that the reason the focus is changing, is because of where the projects are in their lifecycle. Now what we're seeing is most companies are grappling with, how do I take this to the next level? How do I scale? How do I go from just proving out one or two use cases to making the entire organization data driven, and really inject data driven decision making in all facets of decision making? So that is, I believe what's driving the change that we're seeing, that now you've gone from Strata Hadoop to being Strata Data, and focus on that element. And, like I said earlier, the difference between success and failure is your ability to scale and operationalize. Take machine learning for an example. >> Good, that's where there's no, it's not a hype market, it's show me the meat on the bone, show me scale, I got operational concerns of security and what not. >> And machine learning, that's one of the hottest topics. A recent survey I read, which pulled a number of data scientists, it revealed that they spent about less than 3% of their time in training the data models, and about 80% of their time in data manipulation, data transformation and enrichment. That is obviously not the best use of a data scientist's time, and that is exactly one of the problems we're solving for our customers around the world. >> That needs to be automated to the hilt. To help them >> Correct. to be more productive, to deliver faster results. >> Ecosystem perspective, Jim, what's your thoughts? >> Yeah, everything that Basil said, and I'll just point out that many of the core uses cases for AI are automation of the data pipeline. It's driving machine learning driven predictions, classifications, abstractions and so forth, into the data pipeline, into the application pipeline to drive results in a way that is contextually and environmentally aware of what's goin' on. The history, historical data, what's goin' on in terms of current streaming data, to drive optimal outcomes, using predictive models and so forth, in line to applications. So really, fundamentally then, what's goin' on is that automation is an artifact that needs to be driven into your application architecture as a repurposable resource for a variety of-- >> Do customers even know what to automate? I mean, that's the question, what do I-- >> You're automating human judgment. You're automating effort, like the judgments that a working data engineer makes to prepare data for modeling and whatever. More and more that can be automated, 'cause those are pattern structured activities that have been mastered by smart people over many years. >> I mean we just had a customer on with a Glass'Gim CSK, with that scale, and his attitude is, we see the results from the users, then we double down and pay for it and automate it. So the automation question, it's an option question, it's a rhetorical question, but it just begs the question, which is who's writing the algorithms as machines get smarter and start throwing off their own real-time data? What are you looking at? How do you determine? You're going to need machine learning for machine learning? Are you going to need AI for AI? Who writes the algorithms >> It's actually, that's. for the algorithm? >> Automated machine learning is a hot, hot not only research focus, but we're seeing it more and more solution providers, like Microsoft and Google and others, are goin' deep down, doubling down in investments in exactly that area. That's a productivity play for data scientists. >> I think the data markets going to change radically in my opinion. I see you're startin' to some things with blockchain and some other things that are interesting. Data sovereignty, data governance are huge issues. Basil, just give your final thoughts for this segment as we wrap this up. Final thoughts on data and BMC, what should people know about BMC right now? Because people might have a historical view of BMC. What's the latest, what should they know? What's the new Instagram picture of BMC? What should they know about you guys? >> So I think what I would say people should know about BMC is that all the work that we've done over the last 25 years, in virtually every platform that came before Hadoop, we have now innovated to take this into things like big data and cloud platforms. So when you are choosing Control-M as a platform for automation, you are choosing a very, very mature solution, an example of which is Navistar. Their CIO's actually speaking at the Keno tomorrow. They've had Control-M for 15, 20 years, and they've automated virtually every business function through Control-M. And when they started their predictive maintenance project, where they're ingesting data from about 300,000 vehicles today to figure out when this vehicle might break, and to predict maintenance on it. When they started their journey, they said that they always knew that they were going to use Control-M for it, because that was the enterprise standard, and they knew that they could simply now extend that capability into this area. And when they started about three, four years ago, they were ingesting data from about 100,000 vehicles. That has now scaled to over 325,000 vehicles, and they have no had to re-architect their strategy as they grow and scale. So I would say that is one of the key messages that we are taking to market, is that we are bringing innovation that spans over 25 years, and evolving it-- >> Modernizing it, basically. >> Modernizing it, and bringing it to newer platforms. >> Well congratulations, I wouldn't call that a pivot, I'd call it an extensibility issue, kind of modernizing kind of the core things. >> Absolutely. >> Thanks for coming and sharing the BMC perspective inside theCUBE here, on BigData NYC, this is the theCUBE, I'm John Furrier. Jim Kobielus here in New York city. More live coverage, for three days we'll be here, today, tomorrow and Thursday, and BigData NYC, more coverage after this short break. (calm electronic music) (vibrant electronic music)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering Google Cloud Next 2018. Brought to you by Google Cloud and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Google Cloud here at Moscone South, in San Francisco. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, covering all the stop stories here, and day one of three days of coverage with siliconeangle.com, thecube.net for all the great content. Our next guest is Suzanne Frey, director of security, trust, and compliance and privacy at Google Cloud, welcome to theCUBE, thanks for coming in today. >> Thank you so much, it's a pleasure to be here today. >> Don't you love the cube that Google built out here, fits the theme, it's beautiful. >> It is mighty fly, it is awesome. It's so exciting. >> That's great. Great to see Google kind of go the next level. The energy, the people in the company I've talked to, we've been following Diane's career since VMware. I knew she was an investor in Cloud, theCUBE actually started at the Cloud Air office when they got their first round of funding, so really a savvy industry executive. Now two years in the gestation period you can kind of see it. The best of Google being exposed to the world is really kind of a great strategy, we've been commenting on that, but one of things Google has, and has had for a long time is, they've had that really open culture of openness, open source, but trust; "Do no evil's" the slogan and they have all this expertise. >> Yep. >> Is your job to harness that. Take a minute, what is your job? Are you brokering all this greatness? Are you shepherding it? Are you influencing product? What's your role? >> My role, specifically, is to ensure that we make Google Cloud the most trusted place for user data. Now, trust is a multi-faceted thing. I often say that trust starts with making sure that what you expect is what you experience. That's the foundation of it and so my job is first to start there and make sure that everything that we do is in line with the customer's expectations and it's in line with what they experience once they're in the Cloud and that's everything from making sure that we're compliant, that we handle their data responsibly in line with all the rules and regulations around the world which vary greatly. You know all the way through to making sure that we're building exceptional, simple, smart, and secure products every single day across our stack. So that's my job and it's to galvanize that, not just in product and not just in expectations, but also in the people we hire and the culture we engender. >> You know it's interesting, we live in an interesting time right now, and as they say, if you look at the global landscape; from politics, play, to technology, a transformation is happening where security trust, the data, you got GDPR happening in Europe, you got fake news on Facebook, you got users not trusting where's my data, so you have this cultural dynamic, kind of independent of the mission of the big companies where there's an opportunity to use AI for good. There's an opportunity to have a compliance model that's going to maintain that. How does that affect you guys? I'm sure it does in some way, but this is on the minds of people. Surely no one want to be hacked, they want their data to be secure. I want to control my data. I want my data to be leverageable. I want to get utility out of the system, Because it's something bigger with Google Cloud, it's not part of a system. How are you guys talk about that internally? What are some of the conversations that you guys have around this cultural shift? >> It's day one of any new product of feature we develop, those conversations occur. It's part of our process in developing any new product or feature. We have a team, in fact a large portion of my organization is entirely dedicated to reviewing and scrutinizing every single feature, every single new product we bring to bear. Even if a customer wants to build, or I should say, even if an internal developer wants to build a new model, our team is responsible for reviewing that and making sure it's in line with the commitments we have to both legal commitments as well as our customers. So it's part of, and it continues all the way through to the point where I hit the launch button and say, "This is okay to go." >> (laughs) Nice. >> So the way you measure trust is that the expectations match the experience. Now when I look at your scope, we run our business on your scope. G-mail, Inbox, I personally love Inbox, I'm like an Inbox ambassador. >> Fantastic. >> And so thank you for developing that product. Google Drive, Docs, Sheets, you count it, I mean we run our business on your products. And so I wonder sometimes are we doing it right? Some of the challenges we have I think are onboarding and off-boarding folks. When somebody leaves the company or comes on the company you want to give them access to certain sheets or certain documents and then you sort of forget to take them off. How do you handle that? What's best practice there? Are you develop tooling around that? Maybe you could take about that a little bit. >> So we do it in many, many ways. And there certainly are best practices, they are documented out there through a number of tools and papers that we produce. We also have partners that work with our customers that engender those practices, but also then we bake the technology in so that you don't have to think about these things. And a good example would be; we released Team Drives last year. Team Drives is a great example of how you manage documentation for the inbound and outbound employees. It used to be that somebody'd actually have to think, "oh wait, Joe's no longer on this, We need to move him off," And all of that. But with the Team Drive that's handled automatically. Groups is another way. Google Groups is a great way to manage access to information and the like. And then we have tools like IRM, that allow you to sort of manage copying and forwarding information. And there's some more announcements that are coming tomorrow that'll let you also handle some of these things, but I can't talk about them quite yet. So stay tuned. >> You didn't want to release it too early. >> Can you talk about how you go to market with those cause every now and then I'll get a phone call or an e-mail from somebody at Google trying to either introduce me to something, maybe sell something, but it's kind of intermittent. What's the go-to market to inform people? We're obviously a small company. We heard today, "we want to help small, large, start-ups, big companies, governments." How do you guys go to market? >> We do it in lots of different ways. We certainly leverage our communication channels online heavily and we've been ramping up, I mean our investment in marketing and Cloud and getting all of these things, I mean you can see I right here at Next. This is a huge example of how we're trying to get the word out. We're at large across all of our verticals, across all of our customer sets, because I think that is information management and so that you understand, "hey I have these great tools to bear." That's super important for us to get right and we're continuing to evolve it. >> One of the things I always admire about Google from day one, the mission has always been speed. Load the pages faster, find what you're looking for, organize the information. With security and trust now, we were talking before we came on camera, I see Cloud as an opportunity, AI's an opportunity, as Diane Green said, security is the number one worry. Dave's asked this question every year, going back to since 2012, is security a do-over with the Cloud? You guys have such great experience with Sass and Cloud; is it an opportunity for customers going Cloud-native to do security over. Your thoughts? >> Well I think about this, so ill answer this in two ways, for us at Google it's not a do-over, it's been part of our DNA from day one because we were born in the Cloud. From the moment we started to think about how we design a data center to how we design a server to how we retire discs, this was mentioned in the keynote, that's been part of our DNA from day one. So for us we don't believe it's a do-over, we actually believe we're ahead of Darwin in terms of security, well ahead of it. And we'll put our words behind it, that we do believe, bar none, that we are the most secure cloud out there. Certainly customers using G-Suite, Chromebooks, Security Keys, we mentioned that at the keynote this morning as well- zero account hijackings. No one else can make that claim and we're proud to do it. For customers, however, I think many customers are realizing Patch Tuesdays and heterogeneous operating systems and tons of different platforms with customers that are storing information on their hard drives or their thumb drives- its a nightmare for many customers who have been operating on premise for many years and I think they're waking up to realize, "wait a minute, you're going to take care of all of that. You're going to take care of it. One operating system. All managed from the Cloud. One place. My documents are going to sit there. Oh my gosh, I can sleep again if I move to the Cloud." and that's really part of the overall narrative here. >> Just to follow up on that, so that was Chromebook, G Suite, and Two-factor authentication right? >> Yes. >> You called it Titan Security, is that right? >> Yes, Titan Security Keys, correct. >> And the Two-factor authentication comes from what, is it a dongle or- >> It's actually hardware based so if you think about- two-factor's not a new term, two-factor's been around for a long time. A lot of people would have these tokens that would generate a numeric key and you'd look at that and you'd plug it in. Well that's phishable actually, that key gets transmitted when you actually authenticate and that can be picked up. >> Exposed, yeah. >> Exposed. With hardware, its all base of the hardware, there's no key that's exchanged. It's all authenticated to your device and that makes it un-phishable. >> You don't think about it. >> Yeah, exactly. >> So lets talk about compliance for a second. That's part of your job. Honestly we see this year was kind of a- the earthquake, the tectonic plates of GDPR. >> Yes. (laughs) >> Certainly Google's experience, a little fine in the EU of some other areas of your business. Obviously data is a regional thing, obviously in Germany we know what's going on there, so as a customer goes global, you could be in the US, there's now policies that need to be implemented. Is that where softwares going to help? How are you guys talking to your customers and what's the solution that you guys see for compliance and making it seamless because it's a real hassle. >> Yep. >> Some sites and some companies aren't deploying their solution. Their website has been stripped down because they couldn't comply with the GDPR regulation which gives the users the ability to essentially tell you to forget me and all kinds of other things, I don't want to get into it, but the point is, that it puts the pressure on companies, like literally overnight, where it was policy. People in the database world know that data sprawls is a huge problem- people don't even know where the data is. What data base is that on. This is a huge issue. How do you guys talk about that? >> Well first I'll say that compliance is always a shared responsibility between ourselves and our customers. However, those customers who have worked with us, and have been going Cloud-native with us have found that the journey to be much much less friction-full, I will say, or I'd say its more friction-less. Because we are the team that's had to really implement the technical controls around the GDPR. And I want to emphasize, GDPR is incredibly important legislation. We believe it's very important. Two years ago we launched an initiative to be sure we were compliant on time. We're proud to say that we were among the first to announce that compliance in the Cloud. And we're really happy. Our customers have been happy. And our relationships- we take on a large responsibility for maintaining relationships with the legislators and the regulators around the world Many companies can't scale to do that and by going with Google you know you've got a tight and good relationship, a company that is focused on maintaining good relationships world-wide on that front and it's been important. >> So two years before GDPR went into effect, that's much better, most companies were two months before the fines went into effect. (laughs) >> It was roughly about two years, it wasn't quite exactly two years between the time it was announced, but it was close to that. >> But it's not just the technology problem too, which makes it so hard, it's a lot of people and a lot of process. >> Absolutely, yes. >> Shared responsibility as you said just now. >> Yes, and the fact that the data's all in one place of the Cloud, again, makes a huge huge difference with your posture, and your compliance posture for GDPR. >> Susanne, you've been at Google for over a decade, what's motivating you these days, obviously the Cloud market's pretty hot, so that's kind of a nice wave to be on. What's the culture like at Google now? What's the DNA? What's the in- cause Google Cloud's got to spring to their step, we can obviously feel it. We can see the results. But it's just the beginning of this new wave. >> Yep, yep. >> What's exciting you and what's the DNA of Google culture? Google Cloud culture? >> Well Sundar echoed this this morning and I was so happy to hear it. I'm at Google because of the mission. I'm here to manage the world's information, make it universally accessible and useful and secure. (laughs) I will add the "and secure" to my mission. I came because that was so exciting to me. As a kid I never got Encyclopedia's because my father was like, "there going to be out of date." (laughs) He know instantly. >> Data quality number one, he was smart. Data scientist- >> Yes he was, he was. And when Google started to evolve, I was so excited. I'm like, "oh my gosh, look at what's happening to information management in the world." And that's why I'm here and I'm surrounded by other fellow citizens who are so excited about that but also excited about the challenge of keeping information secure. So that's what excites me and to work around so many great data scientists and software engineers and site reliability engineers and customer engineers. Google is about engineering at it's core but we take such a human approach to working with our customers. Understanding how important their information, their productivity in the Cloud is, their security in the Cloud is, and that's what excites me every single day. >> Final question for you; talk about what you're working on. What's your guiding principles for your organization. Where are you guys hiring- obviously you mentioned earlier, which I loved, the expectation is the experience should match; that's a great quote, I think that's important but I would argue that, to add to that complexity, is that expectations that are coming are not yet known. You saying things like "block chain" for instance, that kind of hit a lot of exciting areas around security, decentralization, decentralized applications, token economics. So you're seeing the world starting to get a little bit different where those expectations are not yet seen. So you got to get out in front of that. How are you guys managing that? How are you hiring? What's the vision? >> Sure. So there's sort of three pillars that Prabhakar Raghavan talked about this morning; simple, smart, and secure. Those are kind of our guiding principles for everything we do and, for example, G Suite. How we're thinking about the future, well we're very very lucky that we are always getting low latency signals about what's happening in the world right now. We talk about spam and phishing protection and things like that and we get billions of signals every single day about malicious information or malware, ransomware, those sorts of things. So we have a very low latency view into what's happening at the next minute around the world in that respect. And that gives us a competitive edge in terms of really thinking about what's the next thing that's going to happen. We certainly know that machine learning, whether it's smart compose and smart reply, or it's actually based in security, an anomaly detection. What's an anomaly to one company, is not necessarily an anomaly to another, depends on what business you're in and the like. So investing in machine learning and understanding how to be that security guardian for our customers in an automated fashion, so the people don't have to worry about security, but we've taken care of it for them. That's the holy grail and that's what we're investing in right now. >> Suzanne thank you so much for coming on theCUBE, really appreciate it. We were just talking before we came on, Dave and I, before we went live that if security and some of these complexities can be just services under the wire, like electricity. All cue-ade before we even turn the lights on of computing. That's kind of the goal. (laughs) So we're super early. >> Yes, absolutely. >> That's great. Director of security, trust, compliance, and privacy at Google Cloud's theCUBE. Live coverage, stay with us. This is day one of three days of wall-to-wall coverage. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, we'll be right back. >> Thank you. (techno music)

>> Announcer: From San Mateo, California, it's theCUBE! Covering SnapLogic, Innovation Day, 2018. Brought to you by SnapLogic. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We are in San Mateo, at what they call the crossroads, it's 92 and 101. If you're coming by and probably sitting in a traffic, look up and you'll see SnapLogic. It's their new offices. We're really excited to be here for Innovation Day. We're excited to have this CTO, James Markarian. James, great to see you and I guess, we we last talked was a couple years ago in New York City. >> Yeah that's right, and why was I there? It was like a big data show. >> That's right. >> And we we are two years later talking about big data. >> Big data, big data is fading a little bit, because now big data is really an engine, that's powering this new thing that's so exciting, which is all about analytics, and machine learning, and we're going to eventually stop saying artificial intelligence and say augmented intelligence, 'cause there's really nothing artificial about it. >> Yeah and we might stop saying big data and just talk about data because it's becoming so ubiquitous. >> Jeff: Right. >> I know that big data, it's not necessarily going away but it's sort of how we're thinking about handling it is, like kind of evolved over time, especially in the last couple of years. >> Right. >> That's what we're kind of seeing from our customers. >> 'Cause there's kind of an ingredient now, right? It's no longer this new shiny object now. It's just part of the infrastructure that helps you get everything else done. >> Yeah, and I think when you think about it, from like, an enterprise point of view, that that shift is going from experimentation to operationalizing. I think that the things you look for in experimentation, there's like, one set of things here looking for proving out the overall value, regardless maybe of cost and uptime and other things and as you operationalize you start thinking about other considerations that obviously Enterprise IT has to think about. >> Right, so if you think back to like, Hadoop Summit and Hadoop World who were first cracking their teeth, like in 2010 or around that time frame, one of the big discussions that always comes up and that was before kind of the rise of public cloud, you know which has really taken off over the last several years, there's this kind of ongoing debate between, do you move the data to the compute or do you move the compute to the data? There was always like, this monster data gravity issue which was almost insurmountable and many would say, oh, you're never going to get all your data into the cloud. It's just way too hard and way too expensive. But, now Amazon has Snowball and Snowball isn't big enough. They actually had a diesel truck that'll come and help you come move your data. Amazon rolled that thing across the stage a couple of years ago. The data gravity thing seems to be less and if you think of a world with infinite compute, infinite stored, infinite networking asyndetically approaching zero, not necessarily good news for some vendors out there but that's a world that we're eventually getting to that changes the way that you organize all this stuff. >> Yeah, I think so and so much has changed. I was fortunate to be one of the early speakers, like I used to do Worlds and everything, and I was adamantly proclaiming you know, the destiny of Hadoop as bright and shiny and there's this question about what really happened. I think that there's a kind of a few different variables that kind of shifted at the same time. One, is of course, this like glut of computing in the cloud happened and there are so many variables moving at once. It's like, How much time do you have Jeff? >> Ask them to get a couple more drinks for us. >> Seeing our lovely new headquarters here and one of the things is that there is no big data center. We have a little closet with some of the servers we keep around but mostly, everything we do is on Amazon. You're even looking at things like, commercial real estate is changing because I don't need all the cooling and the power and the space for my data center that I once had. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> I become a lot more space efficient than I used to be and so the cloud is really kind of changing everything. On the data side, you mention this like, interesting philosophical shift, going from I couldn't possibly do it in the cloud to why in the world would we not do things in the cloud. Maybe the one stall word in there being some fears about security. Obviously there's been a lot of breaches. I think that there's still a lot of introspection everyone needs to do about, are my on premise systems actually more secure than some of these cloud providers? It's really not clear that we know the answer to that. In fact, we suspect that some of the cloud providers are actually more secure because they are professionals about it and they have the best practice. >> And a whole lot of money. >> The other thing that happened that you didn't mention, that's approaching infinity and we're not quite there yet, is interconnect speeds. So it used to be the case that I have a bunch of mainframes and I have a tier rating system and I have a high speed interconnect that puts the two together. Now with fiber networks and just in general, you can run super high speed, like WAN. Especially if you don't care quite as much about latency. So if 500 millisecond latency is still okay with you. >> Great. >> You can do a heck of a lot and move a lot to the cloud. In fact, it's so good, that we went from worrying, could I do this in the cloud at all to well, why wouldn't I do somethings in Amazon and some things in Microsoft and some things in Google? Even if it meant replicating my data across all these environments. The backdrop for some of that is, we had a lot of customers and I was thinking that people would approach it this way, they would install on premise Hadoop, whether it's like Apache or Cloud Air or the other vendors and I would hire a bunch of folks that are the administrators and retire terra data and I'm going to put all my ETL jobs on there, etc. It turned out to be a great theory and the practice is real for some folks but it turned out to be moving a lot of things to kind of shifting sands because Hadoop was evolving at the time. A lot of customers were putting a lot of pressure on it, operational pressure. Again, moving from experimentation phase over to like, operational phase. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> When you don't have the uptime guarantee and I can't just hire somebody off the street to administer this, it has to be a very sharp, knowledgeable person that's very expensive, people start saying, what am I really getting from this and can I just dump it all in S3 and apply a bunch of technology there and let Amazon worry about keeping this thing up and running? People start to say, I used to reject that idea and now it's sounding like a very smart idea. >> It's so funny we talk about people processing tech all the time, right? But they call them tech shows, they don't call them people in process shows. >> Right. >> At least not the ones we go to but time and time again I remember talking to some people about the Hadoop situation and there's just like, no Hadoop people. Sometimes technology all day long. There just aren't enough people with the skills to actually implement it. It's probably changed now but I remember that was such a big problem. It's funny you talk about security and cloud security. You know, at AWS, on Tuesday night of Reinvent, they have a special, kind of a technical keynote speak and like, James Hamilton would go. In the amount of resources, and I just remember one talk he gave just on their cabling across the ocean, and the amount of resources that he can bring to bear, relative to any individual company, is so different; much less a mid-tier company or a small company. I mean, you can bring so much more resources, expertise and knowledge. >> Yeah, the economy is a scale, their just there. >> They're just crazy. >> That's right and that why you know, you sort of assume that the cloud sort of, eventually eats everything. >> Right, right. >> So there's no reason to believe this won't be one of those cases. >> So you guys are getting Extreme. So what is Snaplogic Extreme? >> Well, Snaplogic Extreme is kind of like a response to this trend of data moving from on premise to the cloud and there are some interesting dynamics of that movement. First of all, you need to get data into the cloud, first of all and we've been doing that for years. Connect to everything, dump it in S3, ADLS, etc. No problem. The thing we're seeing with cloud computing is like, there's another interesting shift. Not only is it kind of like mess for less, and let Amazon manage all this, and I probably refer to Amazon more than other vendors would appreciate. >> Right, right. They're the leaders so let's call a spade a spade. >> Yeah. >> Certainly Google and Microsoft are out there as well so those are the top three and we've acknowledged that. >> One of the interesting things about it is that you couldn't really adequately achieve on premises is the burstiness of your compute. I run at a steady state where I need, you know, 10 servers or a 100 servers, but every once in a while, I need like, 1,000 or 10,000 servers to apply to something. So what's the on premise model? Rack and stack, 10,000 machines, and it's like waiting for the great pumpkin, waiting for that workload to come that I've been waiting months and months for and maybe it never comes but I've been paying for it. I paid for a software license for the thing that I need to run there. I'm paying for the cabling and the racking and everything and the person administering. Make sure the disks are all operating in the case where it gets used. Now, all of a sudden, we are taking Amazon and they're saying, hey, pay us for what you're using. You can use reserved pricing and pay a lower rate for the things you might actually care about on a consistent basis but then I'm going to allow you to spike, and I'll just run the meter. So this has caused software vendors like us, to look at the way we charge and the way that we deploy our resources and say, hey, that's a very good model. We want to follow that and so we introduced Snaplogic Extreme, which has a few different components. Basically, it enables us to operate in these elastic environments, shift our thinking in pricing so that we don't think about like, node based or god forbid, core based pricing and say like, hey, basically pay us for what you do with your data and don't worry about how many servers it's running on. Let Snaplogic worry about spinning up and spinning down these machines because a lot of these workloads are data integration or application workloads that we know lots about. >> Right. >> So first of all, we manage these ephemeral, what we call ephemeral or elastic clusters. Second of all, the way that we distribute our workload is by generating Spark code currently. We use the same graphic environment that you use for everything but instead of running on our engines, we kind of spit out Spark code on the end that takes advantage of the massive scale out potential for these ephemeral environments. >> Right. >> We've also kind of built this in such a way that it's Spark today but it could be like, Native or some other engine like Flank or other things that come up. We really don't care like what back end engine actually is as long as it can run certain types of data oriented jobs. It's actually like lots of things in one. We combine out data acquisition and distribution capability with this like, massive elastic scale out capability. >> Yeah, it's unbelievable how you can spin that up and then of course, most people forget you need to spin it down after the event. >> James: Yeah, that's right. >> We talked to a great vendor who talked about, you know, my customer spends no money with me on the weekend, zero. >> James: Right. >> And I'm thrilled because they're not using me. When they do use me, then they're buying stuff. I think what's really interesting is how that changes. Also, your relationship with your customer. If you have a recurring revenue model, you have to continue to deliver a value. You have to stay close to your customer. You have to stay engaged because it's not a one time pop and then you send them the 15% or 20% maintenance bill. It's really this ongoing relationship and they're actually gaining value from your products each and every time you use that. It's a very different way. >> Yeah, that's right. I think it creates better relationships because you feel like, what we do is unproportionate to what they do and vise versa, so it has this fundamental fairness about it, if you will. >> Right, it's a good relationship but I want to go down another path before you turn the cameras on. Talk a little bit about the race always between the need for compute and the compute. It used to be personified best with Microsoft and Intel until we come out with a new chip and then Microsoft OS would eat up all the extra capacity and then they'd come up with a new chip and it was an ongoing thing. You made an interesting comment that, especially in the cloud world where the scale of these things is much, much bigger, that ran a world now where the compute and the storage have kind of, outpaced the applications, if you will, and there's an opportunity for the application to catch up. Oh by the way, we have this cool new thing called machine learning and augmented intelligence. I wonder if you could, is that what's going to fill or kind of rebalance the consumption pattern? >> Yeah, it seems that way and I always think about kind of like, compute and software spiraling around each other like a helix. >> Like at one point, one is leading the other and they sort of just, one eventually surpasses the other and then you need innovation on the other side. I think for a while, like if you turn the clock way back to like, when the Pentium was introduced and everyone was like, how are we ever going to use all of the compute power. >> Windows 95, whoo! >> You know, power of like the Pentium. Do I really need to run my spreadsheets 100% faster? There's no business value whatsoever in transacting faster, or like general user interface or like graphical user interfaces or rendering web pages. Then you start seeing this new glut, often led by like researchers first. Like, software applications coming up that use all of this power because in academia you can start saying, what if I did have infinite compute? What would I do differently? You see things, you know like VR and advanced gaming, come up on the consumer side. Then I think the real answer on the business side is AI and ML. The general trend I start thinking of is something I used to talk about, back in the old days, which is conversion of like, having machines work for us instead of us working for machines. The only way we're ever going to get there is by having higher and higher intelligence on the application side so that it kind of intuits more based on what it's seen before and what it knows about you, etc., in terms of the task that needs to get done. Then there's this whole new breed of person that you need in order to wield all that power because like Hadoop, it's not just natural. You don't just have people floating around like, hey, you know, I'm going to be an Uzi expert or a yarn expert. You don't run into people everyday that's like, oh, yeah, I know neural nets well. I'm a gradient descent expert or whatever you're model is. It's really going to drive like, lots of changes I think. >> Right, well hopefully it does and especially like we were talking about earlier, you know, within core curriculums at schools and stuff. We were with Grace Hopper and Brenda Wilkerson, the new head of the Anita Borg organization, was at this Chicago public school district and they're actually starting to make CS a requirement, along with biology and and physics and chemistry and some of these other things. >> Right. >> So we do have a huge, a huge dearth of that but I want to just close out on one last concept before I let you go and you guys are way on top of this. Greg talked about what you just talked about, which is making the computers work for us versus the other way around. That's where the democratization of the power that we heard a lot about the democratization of big data and the tools and now you guys you guys are talking about the democratization of the integration, especially when you have a bunch of cloud based applications that everybody has access to and maybe, needs to stitch together a different way. But when you look at this whole concept of democratization of that power, how do you see that kind of playing out over the next several years? >> Yeah, that's a very big- >> Sorry I didn't bring you a couple of beer before I brought that up. >> Oh no, I got you covered. So it's a very big, interesting question because I think that you know, first of all, it's one of these, god knows, we can't predict with a lot of accuracy how exactly that's going to look because we're sort of juxtaposing two things. One is, part of the initial move to the cloud was the failure to properly democratize data inside the enterprise, for whatever reason, and we didn't do it. Now we have the computer resources and the central, kind of web based access to everything. Great. Now we have Cambridge Analytica and like, Facebook and people really thinking about data privacy and the fact that we want ubiquitous safe access. I think we know how to make things ubiquitous. The question is, do we know how to make it safe and fair so that the right people are using the right data and the right way? It's a little bit like, you know, there's all these cautionary tales out there like, beware of AI and robotics and everything and nobody really thinks about the danger of the data that's there. It's a much more immediate problem and yet it's sort of like the silent killer until some scandal comes up. We start thinking about these different ways we can tackle it. Obviously there's great solutions for tokenization and encryption and everything at the data level but even if you have the access to it, the question is, how do you control that wildfire that could happen as soon as the horse leaves the barn. Maybe not in it's current form, but when you look at things like Blockchain, there's been a lot of predictions about how Blockchain can be used around like, data. I think that this privacy and this curation and tracking of who has the data, who has access to it and can we control it, I think you are looking at even more like, centralized and guarded access to this private data. >> Great, interesting times. >> Yeah, yeah Jeff, for sure. >> Alright James, well thanks for taking a couple of minutes with us. I really enjoyed the conversation. >> Yeah, it's always great. Thanks for having me Jeff. >> It's James on Jeff and you're watching theCUBE We're at the Snaplogic headquarters in San Mateo, California and thanks for watching. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: From San Mateo, California, it's theCUBE! Covering SnapLogic, Innovation Day, 2018. Brought to you by SnapLogic. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We are in San Mateo, at what they call the crossroads, it's 92 and 101. If you're coming by and probably sitting in a traffic, look up and you'll see SnapLogic. It's their new offices. We're really excited to be here for Innovation Day. We're excited to have this CTO, James Markarian. James, great to see you and I guess, we we last talked was a couple years ago in New York City. >> Yeah that's right, and why was I there? It was like a big data show. >> That's right. >> And we we are two years later talking about big data. >> Big data, big data is fading a little bit, because now big data is really an engine, that's powering this new thing that's so exciting, which is all about analytics, and machine learning, and we're going to eventually stop saying artificial intelligence and say augmented intelligence, 'cause there's really nothing artificial about it. >> Yeah and we might stop saying big data and just talk about data because it's becoming so ubiquitous. >> Jeff: Right. >> I know that big data, it's not necessarily going away but it's sort of how we're thinking about handling it is, like kind of evolved over time, especially in the last couple of years. >> Right. >> That's what we're kind of seeing from our customers. >> 'Cause there's kind of an ingredient now, right? It's no longer this new shiny object now. It's just part of the infrastructure that helps you get everything else done. >> Yeah, and I think when you think about it, from like, an enterprise point of view, that that shift is going from experimentation to operationalizing. I think that the things you look for in experimentation, there's like, one set of things here looking for proving out the overall value, regardless maybe of cost and uptime and other things and as you operationalize you start thinking about other considerations that obviously Enterprise IT has to think about. >> Right, so if you think back to like, Hadoop Summit and Hadoop World who were first cracking their teeth, like in 2010 or around that time frame, one of the big discussions that always comes up and that was before kind of the rise of public cloud, you know which has really taken off over the last several years, there's this kind of ongoing debate between, do you move the data to the compute or do you move the compute to the data? There was always like, this monster data gravity issue which was almost insurmountable and many would say, oh, you're never going to get all your data into the cloud. It's just way too hard and way too expensive. But, now Amazon has Snowball and Snowball isn't big enough. They actually had a diesel truck that'll come and help you come move your data. Amazon rolled that thing across the stage a couple of years ago. The data gravity thing seems to be less and if you think of a world with infinite compute, infinite stored, infinite networking asyndetically approaching zero, not necessarily good news for some vendors out there but that's a world that we're eventually getting to that changes the way that you organize all this stuff. >> Yeah, I think so and so much has changed. I was fortunate to be one of the early speakers, like I used to do Worlds and everything, and I was adamantly proclaiming you know, the destiny of Hadoop as bright and shiny and there's this question about what really happened. I think that there's a kind of a few different variables that kind of shifted at the same time. One, is of course, this like glut of computing in the cloud happened and there are so many variables moving at once. It's like, How much time do you have Jeff? >> Ask them to get a couple more drinks for us. >> Seeing our lovely new headquarters here and one of the things is that there is no big data center. We have a little closet with some of the servers we keep around but mostly, everything we do is on Amazon. You're even looking at things like, commercial real estate is changing because I don't need all the cooling and the power and the space for my data center that I once had. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> I become a lot more space efficient than I used to be and so the cloud is really kind of changing everything. On the data side, you mention this like, interesting philosophical shift, going from I couldn't possibly do it in the cloud to why in the world would we not do things in the cloud. Maybe the one stall word in there being some fears about security. Obviously there's been a lot of breaches. I think that there's still a lot of introspection everyone needs to do about, are my on premise systems actually more secure than some of these cloud providers? It's really not clear that we know the answer to that. In fact, we suspect that some of the cloud providers are actually more secure because they are professionals about it and they have the best practice. >> And a whole lot of money. >> The other thing that happened that you didn't mention, that's approaching infinity and we're not quite there yet, is interconnect speeds. So it used to be the case that I have a bunch of mainframes and I have a tier rating system and I have a high speed interconnect that puts the two together. Now with fiber networks and just in general, you can run super high speed, like WAN. Especially if you don't care quite as much about latency. So if 500 millisecond latency is still okay with you. >> Great. >> You can do a heck of a lot and move a lot to the cloud. In fact, it's so good, that we went from worrying, could I do this in the cloud at all to well, why wouldn't I do somethings in Amazon and some things in Microsoft and some things in Google? Even if it meant replicating my data across all these environments. The backdrop for some of that is, we had a lot of customers and I was thinking that people would approach it this way, they would install on premise Hadoop, whether it's like Apache or Cloud Air or the other vendors and I would hire a bunch of folks that are the administrators and retire terra data and I'm going to put all my ETL jobs on there, etc. It turned out to be a great theory and the practice is real for some folks but it turned out to be moving a lot of things to kind of shifting sands because Hadoop was evolving at the time. A lot of customers were putting a lot of pressure on it, operational pressure. Again, moving from experimentation phase over to like, operational phase. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> When you don't have the uptime guarantee and I can't just hire somebody off the street to administer this, it has to be a very sharp, knowledgeable person that's very expensive, people start saying, what am I really getting from this and can I just dump it all in S3 and apply a bunch of technology there and let Amazon worry about keeping this thing up and running? People start to say, I used to reject that idea and now it's sounding like a very smart idea. >> It's so funny we talk about people processing tech all the time, right? But they call them tech shows, they don't call them people in process shows. >> Right. >> At least not the ones we go to but time and time again I remember talking to some people about the Hadoop situation and there's just like, no Hadoop people. Sometimes technology all day long. There just aren't enough people with the skills to actually implement it. It's probably changed now but I remember that was such a big problem. It's funny you talk about security and cloud security. You know, at AWS, on Tuesday night of Reinvent, they have a special, kind of a technical keynote speak and like, James Hamilton would go. In the amount of resources, and I just remember one talk he gave just on their cabling across the ocean, and the amount of resources that he can bring to bear, relative to any individual company, is so different; much less a mid-tier company or a small company. I mean, you can bring so much more resources, expertise and knowledge. >> Yeah, the economy is a scale, their just there. >> They're just crazy. >> That's right and that why you know, you sort of assume that the cloud sort of, eventually eats everything. >> Right, right. >> So there's no reason to believe this won't be one of those cases. >> So you guys are getting Extreme. So what is Snaplogic Extreme? >> Well, Snaplogic Extreme is kind of like a response to this trend of data moving from on premise to the cloud and there are some interesting dynamics of that movement. First of all, you need to get data into the cloud, first of all and we've been doing that for years. Connect to everything, dump it in S3, ADLS, etc. No problem. The thing we're seeing with cloud computing is like, there's another interesting shift. Not only is it kind of like mess for less, and let Amazon manage all this, and I probably refer to Amazon more than other vendors would appreciate. >> Right, right. They're the leaders so let's call a spade a spade. >> Yeah. >> Certainly Google and Microsoft are out there as well so those are the top three and we've acknowledged that. >> One of the interesting things about it is that you couldn't really adequately achieve on premises is the burstiness of your compute. I run at a steady state where I need, you know, 10 servers or a 100 servers, but every once in a while, I need like, 1,000 or 10,000 servers to apply to something. So what's the on premise model? Rack and stack, 10,000 machines, and it's like waiting for the great pumpkin, waiting for that workload to come that I've been waiting months and months for and maybe it never comes but I've been paying for it. I paid for a software license for the thing that I need to run there. I'm paying for the cabling and the racking and everything and the person administering. Make sure the disks are all operating in the case where it gets used. Now, all of a sudden, we are taking Amazon and they're saying, hey, pay us for what you're using. You can use reserved pricing and pay a lower rate for the things you might actually care about on a consistent basis but then I'm going to allow you to spike, and I'll just run the meter. So this has caused software vendors like us, to look at the way we charge and the way that we deploy our resources and say, hey, that's a very good model. We want to follow that and so we introduced Snaplogic Extreme, which has a few different components. Basically, it enables us to operate in these elastic environments, shift our thinking in pricing so that we don't think about like, node based or god forbid, core based pricing and say like, hey, basically pay us for what you do with your data and don't worry about how many servers it's running on. Let Snaplogic worry about spinning up and spinning down these machines because a lot of these workloads are data integration or application workloads that we know lots about. >> Right. >> So first of all, we manage these ephemeral, what we call ephemeral or elastic clusters. Second of all, the way that we distribute our workload is by generating Spark code currently. We use the same graphic environment that you use for everything but instead of running on our engines, we kind of spit out Spark code on the end that takes advantage of the massive scale out potential for these ephemeral environments. >> Right. >> We've also kind of built this in such a way that it's Spark today but it could be like, Native or some other engine like Flank or other things that come up. We really don't care like what back end engine actually is as long as it can run certain types of data oriented jobs. It's actually like lots of things in one. We combine out data acquisition and distribution capability with this like, massive elastic scale out capability. >> Yeah, it's unbelievable how you can spin that up and then of course, most people forget you need to spin it down after the event. >> James: Yeah, that's right. >> We talked to a great vendor who talked about, you know, my customer spends no money with me on the weekend, zero. >> James: Right. >> And I'm thrilled because they're not using me. When they do use me, then they're buying stuff. I think what's really interesting is how that changes. Also, your relationship with your customer. If you have a recurring revenue model, you have to continue to deliver a value. You have to stay close to your customer. You have to stay engaged because it's not a one time pop and then you send them the 15% or 20% maintenance bill. It's really this ongoing relationship and they're actually gaining value from your products each and every time you use that. It's a very different way. >> Yeah, that's right. I think it creates better relationships because you feel like, what we do is unproportionate to what they do and vise versa, so it has this fundamental fairness about it, if you will. >> Right, it's a good relationship but I want to go down another path before you turn the cameras on. Talk a little bit about the race always between the need for compute and the compute. It used to be personified best with Microsoft and Intel until we come out with a new chip and then Microsoft OS would eat up all the extra capacity and then they'd come up with a new chip and it was an ongoing thing. You made an interesting comment that, especially in the cloud world where the scale of these things is much, much bigger, that ran a world now where the compute and the storage have kind of, outpaced the applications, if you will, and there's an opportunity for the application to catch up. Oh by the way, we have this cool new thing called machine learning and augmented intelligence. I wonder if you could, is that what's going to fill or kind of rebalance the consumption pattern? >> Yeah, it seems that way and I always think about kind of like, compute and software spiraling around each other like a helix. >> Like at one point, one is leading the other and they sort of just, one eventually surpasses the other and then you need innovation on the other side. I think for a while, like if you turn the clock way back to like, when the Pentium was introduced and everyone was like, how are we ever going to use all of the compute power. >> Windows 95, whoo! >> You know, power of like the Pentium. Do I really need to run my spreadsheets 100% faster? There's no business value whatsoever in transacting faster, or like general user interface or like graphical user interfaces or rendering web pages. Then you start seeing this new glut, often led by like researchers first. Like, software applications coming up that use all of this power because in academia you can start saying, what if I did have infinite compute? What would I do differently? You see things, you know like VR and advanced gaming, come up on the consumer side. Then I think the real answer on the business side is AI and ML. The general trend I start thinking of is something I used to talk about, back in the old days, which is conversion of like, having machines work for us instead of us working for machines. The only way we're ever going to get there is by having higher and higher intelligence on the application side so that it kind of intuits more based on what it's seen before and what it knows about you, etc., in terms of the task that needs to get done. Then there's this whole new breed of person that you need in order to wield all that power because like Hadoop, it's not just natural. You don't just have people floating around like, hey, you know, I'm going to be an Uzi expert or a yarn expert. You don't run into people everyday that's like, oh, yeah, I know neural nets well. I'm a gradient descent expert or whatever you're model is. It's really going to drive like, lots of changes I think. >> Right, well hopefully it does and especially like we were talking about earlier, you know, within core curriculums at schools and stuff. We were with Grace Hopper and Brenda Wilkerson, the new head of the Anita Borg organization, was at this Chicago public school district and they're actually starting to make CS a requirement, along with biology and and physics and chemistry and some of these other things. >> Right. >> So we do have a huge, a huge dearth of that but I want to just close out on one last concept before I let you go and you guys are way on top of this. Greg talked about what you just talked about, which is making the computers work for us versus the other way around. That's where the democratization of the power that we heard a lot about the democratization of big data and the tools and now you guys you guys are talking about the democratization of the integration, especially when you have a bunch of cloud based applications that everybody has access to and maybe, needs to stitch together a different way. But when you look at this whole concept of democratization of that power, how do you see that kind of playing out over the next several years? >> Yeah, that's a very big- >> Sorry I didn't bring you a couple of beer before I brought that up. >> Oh no, I got you covered. So it's a very big, interesting question because I think that you know, first of all, it's one of these, god knows, we can't predict with a lot of accuracy how exactly that's going to look because we're sort of juxtaposing two things. One is, part of the initial move to the cloud was the failure to properly democratize data inside the enterprise, for whatever reason, and we didn't do it. Now we have the computer resources and the central, kind of web based access to everything. Great. Now we have Cambridge Analytica and like, Facebook and people really thinking about data privacy and the fact that we want ubiquitous safe access. I think we know how to make things ubiquitous. The question is, do we know how to make it safe and fair so that the right people are using the right data and the right way? It's a little bit like, you know, there's all these cautionary tales out there like, beware of AI and robotics and everything and nobody really thinks about the danger of the data that's there. It's a much more immediate problem and yet it's sort of like the silent killer until some scandal comes up. We start thinking about these different ways we can tackle it. Obviously there's great solutions for tokenization and encryption and everything at the data level but even if you have the access to it, the question is, how do you control that wildfire that could happen as soon as the horse leaves the barn. Maybe not in it's current form, but when you look at things like Blockchain, there's been a lot of predictions about how Blockchain can be used around like, data. I think that this privacy and this curation and tracking of who has the data, who has access to it and can we control it, I think you are looking at even more like, centralized and guarded access to this private data. >> Great, interesting times. >> Yeah, yeah Jeff, for sure. >> Alright James, well thanks for taking a couple of minutes with us. I really enjoyed the conversation. >> Yeah, it's always great. Thanks for having me Jeff. >> It's James on Jeff and you're watching theCUBE We're at the Snaplogic headquarters in San Mateo, California and thanks for watching. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from the Moscone Center it's theCUBE, covering AWS Summit San Francisco 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE here in San Francisco at Moscone West, theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Amazon Web Services Summit 2018. It's the first of their kickoff of their little satellite events, really about developers and training and educating people on Amazon Web Services products and services. Again theCUBE covers re:Invent, that's their big show, This is more of a, less of a sales and marketing but more of a really get down and dirty with the developers and practitioners. I'm John Furrier, with my cohost this week Stu Miniman all day today, wall to wall coverage. Stu, the keynotes just kicked off, Andy Jassy is not here, notable. Werner Vogels does all the summits so he's always been the headline. Last year Andy Jassy kind of did the keynote, fireside chat, we had that up on our YouTube channel, SiliconANGLE theCUBE, but here the story is all about SageMaker and the continued dominance of Amazon Web Services, and then again as we were speculating at re:Invent, and we've been saying on theCUBE, the maturization of Amazon Web Services is clear. Everyone knows the numbers, they're breaking out the reporting, they clearly got competitive forces for the first time in AWS's history, they have some serious competition upping their game. Microsoft nipping at their heels, Google putting out some open source tech, Oracle trying to throw FUD into the fire and say, change the rules and kind of keep the rules on their terms, so the competitive pressure. But at the end of the day there's a whole new era of modern software development, modern business applications and we're seeing it with things like cloud expansion, on-premise consolidation, hybrid-cloud, multi-cloud, decentralized infrastructure, blockchain AI, these are the themes, this is what developers want, this is what businesses are doing, let's analyze and discuss the keynotes. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, so John, I mean, first of all, we watched the rolling thunder that is AWS just rolling through the entire industry, and now rolling all over the globe. So the AWS Summit, I think they actually had an idea about Summit in Singapore like, last night, and we're going to be covering a few of them. I was last year at the AWS New York City Summit, and I tell you, that New York City show alone was one of the best shows I went to all year. The amount of people, the excitement, what really differentiates as you said, the big re:Invent versus the summit, first of all, the summit, they tend to be a local audience, it's free for basically everybody to come in. So numbers are great, you know, we're in San Francisco, they going to 10, 15 thousand people here probably. Google Cloud Next was here last year in February and it feels almost the same amount of people here for a regional Amazon show. So the numbers are wow, the announcements, every day Amazon's running an announcement, so Doctor Werner Vogels, Doctor Matt Wood, get up stage, go through some of the usual we're dominating every industry and every service and everything there, but when you piece apart there's like, ooh, there's real announcements that are coming, things that jumped out, we talked about machine learning, Matt Wood talked about SageMaker is really growing super fast, people that I talked to that have been using it are loving it. They came out with SageMaker local, which means that I can develop it on my laptop and do it with that cool, you take ML with that cool, what was it, that deep lens, that they've got. It's how do I get these environments? Amazon isn't just about infrastructure cloud anymore, They've gone to paths, they're pushing to edge, they're doing all of these things. They had a whole ton of announcements, when they were already past the time that the keynotes were going to be done, Oh, you thought we're done, well security, security, security and secrets manager, firewall manager, there's so many services. The theme I've been looking at the past couple years, how do we keep up with all of this, even internally? You talk to Amazon people, they don't know everything that everyone's doing, because it's all those two pizza teams and how they're growing. >> And they always have to get all their sound bites in because they don't have a lot of time to get all that packed into one powerful punch. Just on a quick side note for the folks that watching knows theCUBE, we've been covering Amazon really since the beginning, since the re:Invent started, you know we've been covering data center infrastructure and big data, Hadoop and now beyond. You're starting to see coverage around blockchain and cryptocurrency. So again, we are expanding our coverage of the AWS ecosystem and cloud to include most of the major regional shows of AWS Summit, continuing to go deep into the AWS re:Invent and the community, we are also initiating coverage heavily on Google, Google Cloud Next, we'll be at their show and soon to be at Microsoft show, that's still to be determined with Microsoft that they will let us in, we're working on that, we think that's going to be good, but we'll be nailing and doubling down on the cloud coverage. So Stu, with that as a backdrop, people know we've been deep with Amazon, I've been called an Amazon fanboy many times, but the numbers are clear. I'm a Google fanboy, by the way, too, I love Google stuff. Microsoft I got to learn more about, obviously they have bundling and Office so they're a legacy player, Oracle a legacy player, so you got two legacy players, you got Amazon and Google, I would put them in two different categories, but then Alibaba in China trying to dip in as you got those, the real kind of cloud native companies, Google and Amazon on one end, you get the legacy players with Microsoft and Oracle and IBM on the other. So you have this really highly competitive environment. We're seeing for the first, or second time, Andy Jassy did it at re:Invent, but Werner Vogels put up the competitive slide. He said "This is what we're doing." And he showed the number of services that Amazon offers, vis a vis the competition, and he didn't actually call out the vendors but we kind of know, I put on my Twitter feed, you can see his number one, the second one's Microsoft. Google they put in the Google colors, that's obviously Google, and red is Oracle. Amazon is clearly dominating on the number of services available across the cloud. So when we've been squinting through the numbers on who's leading who, you've really got look at two perspectives. The broad range of available services and the number of customers using those services versus point solutions that might be one instance of the cloud. This is a new architecture, it's not the old waterfall model it's not the old six months to provision into it, mentioned that. This is like a highly competitive environment. So Stu I've got to ask you, how do you squint through that and look at the competition that Amazon has, obviously the numbers aren't great. But how should customers look at the competition, how are you looking at it, how is our team evaluating the competition? >> Well first of all John, it is not a zero sum game and it is very nuanced and complicated. And for most customers it's not a solution, it's many solutions and it's something that Amazon doesn't love, is that you talk about things like multi-cloud and they would say "Well, we have the "best service everywhere and we're the cheapest everywhere "and everyone's all in on us," well, when you get down to it, You know, I hate I have to defend a little bit, you say Microsoft and Oracle, legacy. Microsoft has business productivity applications. They are the leader in the space when you talk about... >> Yeah they're the leader in legacy applications. >> But you know, you start with the Microsoft Office Suite, and say what you will, it's still dominant out there, it's there. Microsoft gave enterprises the green light to go to SaaS, and they really helped drive that. >> John: Whoah, whoah, that's a direction. >> Yeah. >> John: But they're a legacy vendor, what you just said is that they're legacy. >> But Azure is doing quite well... >> John: Oracle's going to the cloud, are they legacy? >> Oracle's got a phenomenal team, have been building some really interesting things in cloud, but obviously no doubt about it, Amazon's leading, but when you talk to users and you say, okay, there's lots of reasons they might be using Azure for various pieces. Everybody is using AWS, except for those people, John, and you used the example, the ones that compete against Amazon and obviously that's a concern. Because today Amazon is competing against more and more companies, so that's a little bit... >> I'm not, I'm not down on the legacy, what I'm trying to point out is that IBM was clear about this, they were up front about it at IBM Think we were just at, which is, they're saying the legacy has to evolve. Doesn't mean legacy's going to die, I mean Microsoft clearly is going to the cloud, their stock's at like 90 plus, it was at 26 a few years ago so, Satya Nadella taking over from Ballmer. Clearly that's the direction Microsoft has to go, and they're doing it. Now, they're a legacy company doing cloud. Oracle, legacy company, doing cloud. IBM, legacy company, doing cloud. So that's necessarily a bad thing, I'm just saying vis a vis the competition I would put Google and I would put Amazon in a new, modern, non-legacy kind of world. >> Yeah, well okay, and you find one of the lines I love that Werner Vogels was talking about is we talked about AWS customers are builders, and he said builders have a bias for action. And I love that, because if you talk to companies, and you know, we've talked a lot on theCUBE, digital transformation, much more than a buzzword, John, I've not talked to anybody, that they're like, "Oh, kind of hogwash, you know, I'm just going to "keep doing the same thing I've been doing "for the last 10 years and I'll keep being successful." We understand that change needs to happen and it's not easy. So if you've got data scientists, if you've got, you know, understanding data, if you're embracing developers, Amazon has affinity with these groups, and that's why they build and they listen to their customers and there's new services and another thing, Amazon gets up on stage and it's not so much "Oh, here's the vision of where we're going," it's here's the stuff that we GAed that we already had you in the beta. Here's the new things, and they might give you a couple things in preview, but they iterate and move so fast. >> Yeah, checking the boxes on the product side, but... >> But much more than checking the boxes, they listen to their customers. >> Well, well of course, that's what they say, but we know they're doing that, but the thing, I mean checking the boxes, they're on the cadence of the Amazon releases, which we've talked about that. But fundamentally, Stu, I think the two big things and this is what I want to get your reaction to is, what's going on with Amazon, the consistent thing is that they lay out the preferred architecture of the modern stack and it's not the same architecture as the old way. Two, the SageMaker and machine learning and where AI is going, if you look at what Matt Wood discussed, SageMaker, my prediction, will surpass Aurora as the number one shipping service for Amazon in the history of their product. That thing is on a torrent pace, and the way they lay it out architecturally, they're not head figment, they're saying this is what we're doing, they lay out the architecture, and they're putting in the machine learning. So, to me, I love that. Now, all the other stuff that they're doing it's just the cadence of Amazon. More announcements, more services, general availability, they're moving the ball down the field, as Jeff Frick would say, matriculating the ball down the field. So your reaction to the modern architecture, and the SageMaker, machine learning for all developers. >> Yeah, absolutely, Amazon is setting the bar for how we think about architecture today. They're leaders in serverless, an area I've been hot on the last year or so. You know, Werner was up on stage talking about Ai Roba who I got the chance to interview last year. So absolutely they are the bar that everything is measured on in this industry. And if they're not, have the leading product in everything, they are close second and they have so many services that there is just this flywheel of not only services and customers and the new flywheel we talked about on theCUBE two years ago with Andy Jassy is data. John, I want to throw back at you a question. Amazon released something called AWS Secrets Manager. Do we trust Amazon with our secrets? Is the government coming after Amazon now? There's some of these macroeconomic things happening, you're hearing everything in Silicon Valley, what are you hearing lately? >> Well what I'm hearing is one, people are really kind of not happy with Amazon's success because it, you know, market share at the expense of other old guard or legacy vendors, and so that's taking it's toll. Oracle to me is the biggest company that's impacted most by Amazon. It's clear that a war of words is happening between Ellison and Jassy. Two, there's a big policy battle going on in D.C. I think Bloomberg broke a story that Oracle is trying to incite Trump to tackle Amazon proper, but and then Amazon is affected, Amazon Web Services is affected, because they have all that Department of Defense and the CIA deal, so you're seeing Amazon, Amazon Web Services for the first time dealing with competitive pressures that's old school tactics, which is policy formulation, and as they say in the policy game in D.C., Stu, the battle is won before it's even fought. This is new territory for Amazon, they really got to get their act together, and if I had to tell Andy Jassy any advice would be like look it, you got to start thinking chess game at this point, and understand that the competition is not going to roll over. We've said this on theCUBE many times. Oracle's not going to roll over, IBM's not going to roll over. Now, other companies, like Cloud Air who's down thirty percent on earnings, they're going to have to do a deal with Amazon, just like VMware did. So I think you have these big cloud players sucking the oxygen out of the room, and there are impacts. The growing startups who are pre-public companies or are public companies have to either join the ecosystem or find another partner. The major cloud players are going to fight tooth and nail for market share as stakes on the table is the future internet, it's basically everything in cloud that's going to extend to democratization around decentralization, the future of money, sovereignty, government, digital nations, internet of things, these are, it's a high stakes chess game and Amazon is now on new territory, and I think that to me is the big walkaway is that no one is going to let them take this uncontested. >> Yeah, John, look at this crowd. The expo hall is filling up, customers are still excited. The buzz that I hear is that Amazon, they listen, they still move really fast when they need to make changes, I remember a year ago when we were here for the Google event I was talking, it's like, ah, Google's got such better pricing for the small business and everything like that. A week later Amazon changed all of their pricing, billing by the microsecond, I talked back to some of my sources and they're like, "Yeah Amazon listened and totally flipped the game." >> Yeah, well Jassy, he... >> There are sustainable advantages, so difficult in the fast pace of change but Amazon is doing better than what Oracle used to do in the past, they were kind of like, we'd get the lead and kind of want the competition intact, with them with the old sailing analogy, Amazon doesn't worry about the competition, they listen to their customers, they're moving forward. >> Well, I think that they do, they don't admit it but they have to watch, they've got to look in their rear view mirror a little bit, but Stu, to end out the analysis I would say the following, my observation is this: Andy Jassy and his team are very customer-centric. He sat on theCUBE many times, so as an organization they're very process oriented, they'll listen to customers. But if you look at what's happening in the world today, is that in the old way, the way that Intuit laid it out that took months to provision the software, the old technology business model or venture architecture for a business was make a sound technology decision, and all the chits will fall in the right places. This is completely opposite now, if you look at what's going on with cloud and blockchain and cryptocurrency and decentralized applications, it's the business model that matters, the technology switching costs are now fungible with Lambda you're starting to see these sets of services that can be spun up in parallel. So the scale and flexibility of the platform, and Werner Vogels pointed this out on the keynote, this is fundamental. The decisions that are fatal to a company is the business model and the business logic, this is where the action is. That means it's not just a developer game any more, it's the CTO, it's the data scientists, and Werner Vogels laid that out and I think that to me was my big walkaway from today's keynote is that Amazon recognizes that it's not just about developers, make developers more productive, but bring all those people together to do the right for the business model, the business logic and applications. >> Yeah, John, we're always looking for what are those things that are slow down the company and the roadblocks, one thing Amazon I think did a great job they're out in front of GDPR, that are super hot topic out there, and they just say categorically, "We're ready for GDPR on all of our services," so full steam ahead, don't stop your spending, keep growing. >> Couldn't be a better time to be a theCUBE host to analyze and talk about the competition. Let's see how Amazon handles the competition, do they just keep pedal to the metal, or do they address it and play those 3D chess games? TheCUBE here in San Francisco for live coverage of AWS Summit 2018 in San Francisco, more coverage after this short break. We'll be right back. (techno music)

(orchestral music) >> Hello everyone. Welcome to the special CUBE conversation here in theCUBE's Palo Alto studio. I'm John Furrier. Where conversation around venture capital, entrepreneurship, crypto currencies, block chain, and more, Jonathan Ebinger our friend with BRV, formerly Blue Run Ventures, but BRV for short, sounds better, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks John, looking forward to it. >> Great to see you, we've known each other for a long time and you've been a great investor, your firm has done a lot of great stuff, deals are really famous deals, but also you dig into the companies and you really stand by your portfolio companies, but you've also done a lot of work in China. >> Yes. >> So you have a good landscape of what's going on. What's the, what's going on in China? >> Well China is really expanding in ways which we had not foreseen when we first started investing there almost 15 years ago. We were really active for five to 10 years, investing in companies that initially were considered copycat companies, you can't really use that term anymore. In fact what's happening more and more, you're seeing Chinese ideas coming to the United States. Businesses like We Chat are being copied as fast as they can, you're seeing Snapchat, Messenger and so forth, they're quickly trying to amalgamate as many assets as they can within their viewership much like we're seeing in a lot of the other Chinese analogs over there. It's exciting to see, it's very much an arms race. >> It's been interesting to watch. We were at the Ali Baba Cloud Conference last year, at the end of last year, it's interesting the innovation and entrepreneurial thirst has really changed. If you go back just 10 years ago when you guys were first getting in there, I remember the conversations were what's going on in China, it's very developmental but what's going on 10 years ago, they are dominating the mobile space, they're mobile usage is really much different makeup in how they do startups, the apps. How much of that has influenced some of their success just the demand? >> Always on, location always available, it opens up a whole new level of communication services. The idea of the larger screen format, people used to think in the United States, these large devices coming out of Korea first and then China, we thought these would never play in the United States, now Apple 10, larger screen size, it makes sense, it's mobile first right from the get go for a now billion plus users. >> So BRV, how many active portfolio companies do you guys have and what's the profile that you're looking for for entrepreneurs, what are some of the kind of companies? >> We're about 45 active companies right now. We're putting about, we're putting money in about 10 new companies a year at this point. We have a very disciplined approach of investing in Series A style companies, Series A of course means a lot of different things to people, but generally, we like to put $3 to $5 million to work early on and then follow on. >> How much do take for that, just a third? >> Typical in the 20%-25% range. There's a lot of companies out there that still fit that profile. Of course you're seeing some super sized Series A's that happen, we don't play in those but for the traditional software companies, evaluations are really right in our sweet spot. >> How big is the fund now, just what's the number in terms of capital? >> We're in fund six, we're just over $150 million. >> And you got to save some for follow on rounds. >> Exactly. >> Talk about the changes in venture capital because what's interesting, I had a conversation with Greg Sands with Costanoa Ventures, another great investor, formerly I think the first employee of Netscape I think or the business plan. Great guy, he talked about the dynamics of, you don't need that much cash anymore because if you can get unit economic visibility into what the business is working, you can do so much more with that and I'm calling it the hourglass effect, you get through that visibility, you're in control, you own your own destiny, versus the old Silicon Valley model which seems to be fading away, which is hey, what do you need? $40 million, or here's $100 million. That really limits your exit options and sometimes you can drown in your own capital. Talk about that dynamic. >> You're seeing the $40 million rounds with businesses that are much more capital intensive and that's coming back in vogue now but for the most part, I agree with what Greg's saying and this whole advent of seed funds and super seed funds and angel funds and so forth has been really great for the traditional series A investor. A lot of that early fundamental and foundational work is being done and then when the series A comes, it's more about expansion so we're effectively getting what was a Series B type stage company now we're investing in Series A. We're saying hey, this product works, there's product market fit, let's put dollars to work to really grow the market. >> So you're saying Series B was a kind of prove the business model, shifted down to the A because the cost to get there is lower and hence that's opened up a seed round lower in numbers, so it just shifts down a little bit. >> It really has, it really has and that plays into our sweet spot. We really like working on business models, distribution strategies, things like that. >> And what kind of startups do you want to invest in? What are some of the categories? >> Love financial services, we like health tech, we're doing education, we're really pretty omnivorous when it comes to the sector. What we're looking for is really businesses that are using data, real time data to disrupt the numbers. >> So you're not sector driven, you're disruption oriented. >> That's right. >> Okay let's talk about disruption, my favorite trend. Obviously I love the China dynamic because you're not sure what it is, but it's really doing well so you can't ignore it and they're innovative and they're hustling hard and they've got massive numbers. Block chain, we're super excited about, we love crypto, we think it's the biggest wave coming out there, so a lot of my smart, entrepreneurial friends are jumping on their surfboards literally and jumping out into those waves and there's a lot of action there. At the same time, people are saying, stay away from that crypto thing, it's a scam. Kind of a different perspective, what's your thoughts on that? >> If you look at, you separate the cryptocurrencies from block chain, I think it becomes a lot more clear. Block chain is for real. Tracking provenance on transactions, real estate transactions, multinational transactions, makes a lot of sense, dovetails nicely with security, so there's a real business there. You saw the announcement with IBM and Mersk the other day, what they are taking enterprise level block chain into their whole supply chain. I think that's really important. We have a company in the category called pay stand which is doing the same sort of thing with smaller size businesses, just accelerating the whole process on accounts receivable, taking working capital. >> And they're doing block chain for that? >> Yes block chain is an option, we're not forcing people onto block chain, but the idea of hey, let's give people more cost effective ways to transact, get rid of the paper checks, get rid of the invoicing and just join the modern world, much like you use Venmo if you and I are going to exchange money. >> That's pay stand, that's one of your hot companies. >> Yeah it is, absolutely. >> So are they using block chain or not? >> They are, yes. >> Okay, because it's a physical asset, it's kind of a supply chain thing? >> They use it to track the funds themselves, unlike a credit card where you have to pay a big fee or ACH which you can't really get proof of funds, with their block chain technology, you can be sure that you have the funds available and you get it instantly. >> Let's talk about use cases that you think out there, I'd like you to just weigh in on use cases for block chain that a mainstream person that's not in the tech business would understand, because they say, is it real or not? I agree block chain is legit, what are some use cases that would highlight that? >> I think if you've ever been involved in real estate, bought a home, things like that, just tracking title insurance, you're going all the way back if you live in California, you're going all the way back to pre-statehood days, you have to track the provenance of that land all the way through. You're paying title insurance, title insurance is a business you don't really need if you have accurate provenance tracking through block chain. I think that's one most of us can understand. Obviously bills of weighting with things coming over on ships. That's natural and right now things get held up in port because people are trying to find a clipboard before you can sign off on who, is this bill of weighting actually clean, that stuff can be done automatically with 2D barcodes, block chain usage. >> Certainly with perishable goods too, we learned that with IBM's example. >> Sure. >> Okay let's get into the hot companies you got going on. Name some of the hot investments that you've done. >> Sure, well I talked about pay stand a minute ago, really excited about them, another one we really like is a company called aerobotics. I know you're a fan of autonomous flying. If you think about drones and everyone knows DJI and they're a great company, that's one to one, one person flying one drone, that's not scalable obviously, it scales at one to one. With autonomous flying, you can have a whole army of drones out doing your business, whether they're doing site exploration, checking for chemical spills, looking at traffic and so forth. The company is now operating in three continents, it's just, if you think about what a drone is, effectively it's a flying cell phone. It's a cell phone that goes around, takes pictures, transmits data back, we know something about cell phones at BRV, we've been investing in this category for a long time so when we say aerobotics come along, we said this is just a natural extension of real time data, cellular technology, and location based services. >> You guys don't get a lot of credit as much as you should, in my opinion on that, you guys were very early on the mobile, mobile connectivity side and mobile footprint and device and software. That's playing well into the hottest trend that we see, that's not the sexiest trend, that's IOT. >> Absolutely. >> Because drones are certainly, industrial IOT is a big one. Instrumenting physical plants, equipment, and IOT in general the edge of the network. What's your thoughts on IOT and how would you, how do you see that evolving? It's more than just the edge of the network issue, it's bigger. >> It is, well of course the devices and sensors are important. I think a lot of that's been commoditized. The business that we've been seeing develop and there's a lot of folks, they've moved from analytics of the web to analytics of IOT, so there's a lot of interesting companies coming in the analytic space. We're not playing in that as much, we tend to like to invest in companies that are big enough that you need to have analytics for them. We like companies that have proprietary control of analytics versus necessarily running analytics for company X. >> So you're not poopooing IOT per se, just that from an investment thesis standpoint, it's not on your radar yet. >> That's right, they're either too capital intensive for us as a firm or you're basically managing someone else's data. I want to be in companies that we're managing our own data for a proprietary advantage. >> That's really what I was going to get to next, the role of data driven, so we've lived in dupe world, theCUBE started in 2010 in the offices of Cloud Air actually and people don't know the history and it's been interesting, Hadoop was supposed to save the world, the data, but it really started the data trend, the data driven trend, Mike Olsen, Amar Omadala and the team over there really nailed it but it didn't turn into be just Hadoop, it's everything so we're seeing that now become a bumper sticker, data driven marketer, I'm a data driven executive, I'm a data driven interviewer, all that stuff, what does it actually mean? What does data driven mean to you? >> Data is, there's big data and then there's actionable data obviously people talk about exhaust, the data coming off, we really got started with, as you know, we were investors in Waze, awful lot of data coming out of your cell phone, extracting just the important pieces of it are really what's important. We're investors in a company called Cabbage which looks at every transaction a small business makes to determine their credit worthiness. It's really the science. People talk about data scientists, what do they actually do? What they're actually doing is separating out the wheat from the chaff because it's just a crush of data. I saw your interview with Andy Jazzy to other day from AWS, the amount of data that's being stored, it's almost unfathomable but the important people. >> They have a lot of data. You'd like to invest in them now. >> Exactly, but that's really the thing, it's being able to separate the good data from the bad. >> You look at Amazon, I was talking to Jesse and he didn't really go there because he was kind of on message but when I talked with Swami who runs the AI group over there, we were talking about, I said to him straight up, I'm like, you're running a lot of workloads on your cloud, I'm sure you have data on those workloads. Just the impact of what they could do with that data. This is the virtuous cycle that their business model is made up of, but it's changing the game for what they can become. The thing that we're seeing in the data world is, sometimes the outcome might not be what you think because if you can use the data effectively, it's a competitive advantage, not a department. >> Right and you have to really stay true to your commitment to data. What we've seen happen is when companies, if you've been around for 10 years or so, you start to trust your gut, that's important, but it can also not lead you to see obvious conclusions because the world changes. >> And also committing to data also means from a practitioner's standpoint, investing in the tech, investing in things to be data driven, not just to say it. >> Exactly. >> Okay so what's the future for you guys? What are you looking at next year, what are some of the things you'd like to accomplish for investment opportunities, besides getting all the hot deals, you did Waze, that was an amazing deal, one of my favorite products, how did that go down? How many people passed on Waze? >> I don't know how many people passed, but we were lucky, they wanted to bring us in to the initial syndicate, they wanted to have some folks who understood. >> But it wasn't that obvious though at the beginning. What was the original pitch? >> The initial pitch was that they were going to have folks have the dash devices, the product would sit on your dashboard and they were going to be using it to map Eastern Europe because Eastern Europe was just coming into the Western world and they didn't really have good roads and good maps. We thought, that's interesting but they probably also don't have smartphones, so why don't we come across the Atlantic and let's make this thing work in the US and then from there, the rest took off country by country we were the number one navigation app in I think 150 countries at one point. >> What's the biggest thing that you've learned over the past few years in the industry that's different now I mean obviously there's some context that I'll share which is obviously the big cloud players are becoming bigger, scale's a big thing, you got Google, you got Microsoft and Amazon, you've got Facebook's out there as well. Then you get the political climate. You go to Washington D.C. and New York, Silicon Valley is not really talked highly about these days on the hill in Washington, yet GovCloud is completely changing the game of how the government is going to work with massive innovations and efficiencies, literally overnight, it's almost weird. >> It is and it isn't. If you look at it through a longer term horizon, Silicon Valley is again at the forefront, we're really the first ones with more transparency in the industry, all the different movements which are really important and all the conversations that are happening are important and they're happening here first. I think you're starting to see a ripple effect, you're seeing it going through entertainment, you're going to see it in the government, industry after industry I think is going to start to have to be more open as Silicon Valley has led the way on that. >> That's a great point. Take a minute to describe the folks out there watching that aren't from here, what is Silicon Valley about in your opinion? >> Silicon Valley is, of course it's more than a mindset, but folks who are here are here on purpose. They come here intentionally. There are very few people that I know who were born and raised here, so they're coming here because they want to be part of a shared ethos around success, around success, around shared values and competition so it's a very healthy environment, I came, I used to live in Washington D.C. and I couldn't be happier to be 3000 miles away. >> If you're a technology entrepreneur, this is where all the sports and action is, as I always say, we always love sports analogies. Okay, I got to ask you about the VC situation around ICOs, initial coin offerings are being talked about as an alternative to fundraising, there's some security options on token sales as a utility, the SEC has started to put some guidelines down on what that looks like, but the general sentiment is, it's a new way to raise money and some people are doing private rounds with venture capital and doing token sales through ICOs. You see some hybrids, but for the most part, the hard core I don't want to say right or left wing, is there a wing of the political spectrum, but the hard core ICO guys are like, this is all about disrupting the VC community and you're a VC, so you got to take that a little bit personal but the point is, what do you think about that? Is that talked about? >> I think that's good salesmanship. The VC industry such as it is, you can fit every VC into one section of Stanford stadium. There just aren't that many VCs to really go after. We're a small group of folks. I think that going after maybe disrupting the way folks are raising money through Kickstarter and things like that, that's all great. We're not going to stop it, we're going to embrace it. I think that there's plenty of different ways to raise capital, I have no compunction about those things. >> Do you think it's more of a democratization trend or a new asset class, so you don't see it disrupting the VCs per se, but if it's only a handful of VCs that could fit into Stanford Stadium, for instance, then certainly there's more options, it's a dilution. >> I think you look at it as it's just an alternative financing method, do I take debt, do I take equity, do I take venture, do I take friends and family? It's just one more arrow in the quiver of the entrepreneur, I think you have to be smart about it because thinking that you're going to get the same level of attention from an investor in your ICO that you are going to get from a series A investor who owns 20% of your company, those are two very different value propositions. >> So you see a lot of pitches and sometimes, you have to say no a lot and that's the way the game is, but a lot of times, you want the best deals. But the founders' side of the table, they're looking at the VC, I need money. So that's one of the options, what they really want is a value added partner, so what's your current take on what that means these days? Sometimes it means a firm, sometimes it means a partner, sometimes it means the community. How are you guys looking at BRV as value add versus the worst case scenario which is value subtract, you just want to have that be positive. >> I see that written about venture too. >> I know, some people experienced it. >> I think it helps that we've been around now for almost 20 years, we got started in '98 so you have to look at our body of work and the continuum of investments and founders and CEOs and CTOs that we've invested in. There's hundreds and hundreds of people who have taken money from BRV, and so that's one of the real positives about this current state we're in is that there's so much transparency. The fact that we are, I like to think we're good actors and have been for a long time, that comes out, now through our words but through the words of. >> What would they say about you guys? What would your entrepreneurs say about BRV? >> Aside from using buzzwords like value add, they say, they know their industry, they're not afraid to ask for help, they try to call problems when they see it, things like that. >> You stand by your companies. >> Absolutely. >> Awesome, well what's your favorite trend that you're personally interested in? >> I think you have to go after health care right now. It is just such a big market right now. People have been nibbling all different sides of it right now, there's been folks who are trying to expedite processing, there's actual innovations happening on the medical side, I think there is just, technology is just now starting to get into that, technology has gotten into education. >> How about the startup you guys funded that's related to the health care field. >> Yes, we're in a company called Hello Heart which is really at the confluence of a number of trends. It starts off, what Hello Heart is, it's a personal blood pressure cuff for you as an employee of a big company, more and more companies are starting to self insure. If you're a big enough company, 10,000 plus employees or even fewer, you're going to want to self insure to save money but also, your employees get very much more comfortable with you as an employer, you care about my well being, so it's a very virtuous cycle for the employees. >> So companies themselves insuring their own employees. >> Absolutely. >> They have to be super big, this company. >> This is just one component of a self insured business. You also, of course you still have access to doctors and stuff, I'm not making the pitch for being self insured as a company, I'm just saying that. >> But that's a trend. >> It's absolutely a trend and you're seeing a lot of what I would call point solutions stepping in, whether it's psychiatric, whether it's opioid help, whether it's working on heart conditions, these are all different point solutions which are being amalgamated together to help companies which are self insuring. >> So is Hello Heart for consumers or for business? >> It's sold to businesses but individual employees have it so they can keep track of their blood pressure. >> But I can't buy one if I wanted one? >> Not today, but I'll make sure I can get one to you. >> I need one, get all of our employees instrumented. >> Exactly. >> Drug tested all that stuff going on. People worry about the privacy, that's something I would be concerned with, putting. >> That's taken a really fast pendulum swing. A few years ago, Generation X was privacy, there is no privacy, the default was, location is always on, that's just flipped 180 degrees in the last few years. >> Well Jonathan, thanks for coming into this CUBE conversation, I want to ask you one final question, one thing we're passionate about is women in tech and underserved minorities, obviously Silicon Valley has to do a better job, it's out on the table, and it's working but we're still seeing a lot more work to be done, we're seeing titles not being at the right level, but pay's getting there in some places but titles aren't, some paying still below for women, still a lot more to do, what are you guys doing for the women in tech trend, how are you guys looking at that? Certainly it's a sensitive topic these days, but more importantly, it's one that's super important to society. >> It is, I think like a lot of things that have long term value, it's really about your actions versus your words, so our firm has two out of the five investment professionals are female, one of the last three CEO's we've founded is a female CEO, we have technologists, we have marketing people, we have CEO's that are females it's very much of a cross the board, sex, race and so forth. >> You guys are indiscriminate, a good deal's a good deal. >> Exactly right. >> It's about making money, VC's are in the business of making money, a lot of people don't understand, you guys have a job to do but you do a good job. >> We're in the business of making money but our investors for the most part are not for profits. Large universities, our biggest investor is the Red Cross, so when we do well, the Red Cross does well and the country does well. >> You're mission driven at this point. >> Exactly. >> Is that by design or is that just, your selection? >> We're delighted with our LP's, it's important that we have synergies aside from just finances with our investors. >> That's super well, I appreciate you coming on, I think it's super great that you're tying society benefits into money making and entrepreneurship, great stuff Jonathan Ebinger here on theCUBE, BRV check them out, great VC firm here in Silicon Valley. It's a CUBE conversation, we're talking about startups and entrepreneurship I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (dramatic music)

>> Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE. Covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone. We're here live in San Francisco for theCUBE's exclusive two days of coverage for Cisco Systems' inaugural event called DevNet Create extension. DevNet their classic developer program, for the Cisco install base of network routers. Now going to the cloud, native, going to the developer where dev-ops and the enterprise are connecting. I'm John Furrier, my cohost Peter Burris. Next is Dan Kohn, who is the Executive Director of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF. Formerly known as Kubecon. Which is the event, Kubecon.io. Dan, great to see you. Executive Director, how's business, is going good? >> Fantastic! (John laughs) Yeah, six months ago we chatted at our last event in Seattle. And it's just amazing to see the progress since then. Projects members. >> It's been a whirlwind. Even I can't keep track. You guys are announcing all these new projects. What's the current count of projects that you guys have under the Cloud Native Compute Foundation? >> So we're up to 10. I should definitely start with the fact that Kubernetes is the anchor 10 in our original project. In a lot of ways, foundation was setup around that. And that project is just continuing to do incredibly well. Where it's one of the highest velocity projects in the history of open source. In terms of number of authors, number of commits, poll requests, issues. But now we have a constellation of other projects that are in support of that one. It can be used in a lot of different ways. >> John: Yeah. >> That we've been adding in. >> We had Craig McLuckie on earlier. Now he's with Heptio. Again, when he was doing that work, at Google, back in the days with what's his name from Microsoft now. >> Peter: Brendan Burns. >> Brendan Burns, yeah. >> Now it's an interesting question, where you say, oh, wait a minute, the three sort of key people behind Kubernetes, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, who's his co-founder at Heptio, then Brendan Burns, they all left Google. Is this a bad sign for the project and the technology? >> John: No, I don't think so. >> And we would say it's a spectacularly good sign. Now, if they had left and said, ah you know, containers, I'm going to do virtual machines. But in fact they said, there's such an enormous market for this. And to have Microsoft and Azure step in and say, we really want to invest in this space and we want to bring on one of the co-founders, Brendan. And for the other two co-founders, say, hey Google is making a huge investment. But we also think there's an opportunity for independent venture funded startup. >> Craig is completely passionate about this because there is an interoperability ethos that's always been around the open web. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> And certainly open source has the same ethos. Cloud Native brings an interesting thing, and it's clear now to people that there's not going to be one cloud winning them all. >> It's a multi-could world. >> Dan: Right. >> How is the Cloud Native Foundation floating in the open source world? Is it gravitating towards more infrastructure, more edge, software edge? Are you guys kind of in the middle? Are you guys the glue layer? How do you view that? >> Sure. So one way of looking at what we're doing is, helping to build a stack of software. That allows you to run your applications either on bare metal in your own data center or on any of the public clouds. Or hybrid solution where you're mixing back and forth. But the key idea is that all the core parts of that are open source. They're supported by multiple different vendors. And what that means is, you get to avoid lock-it. So today, Amazon web services has some of the most extraordinary engineering. They have all these great services that make it very easy to go onboard. But if you build your whole architecture around that, then you're stuck with AWS forever. And when time goes up, time to renegotiate your contract in a year or two, you're back again and don't have a lot of leverage. Where we think AWS is fantastic platform to run Kubernetes, to run our other projects on top of. But we don't think you want to lock-in to those services to such a degree. >> Okay, when I'm on, first of all, pretend I'm Amazon, I'm a competitive strategist, lock-in, I got to get you locked-in. I'm just going to run Kubernetes on Amazon. Why don't I just do that? >> We think that's a great solution. >> John: You do? >> Heptio and lots other folks make it very easy to run Kubernetes on Amazon. But we also think you should at least look at Kubernetes on Bluemix, on Google, on Azure. And know that in the future when you're negotiation comes up, even if you never leave, you at least threaten to leave. That you're not locked into that one vendor forever. >> So if you think about how the cloud industry structure is starting to layout, you knew we were going to have IAAS. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> SAS has been around for quite sometime. >> Dan: Right. >> The big question is what happens with that platform as a service. >> The developer world. >> Dan: Yeah. Some people think it's going to end up in the IAS element. >> Dan: Umhmm. Some people end up in the SAS. If it ends up in the IAS, you got the lock-in. Do you see a world going forward where developers have their own place, where they go and build and create software independent of either target but then add it to the various platforms. Is that a direction that you think this is all going to end up in? >> I do. Our view is that Heroku, which really invented this platform as a service concept or popularized it. You do, get push Heroku and magically your application's up. And then Cloud Foundry which came along and created a open source version of that. Those were two building blocks. But the Cloud Native essentially taking that scenario and saying, hey, that continuous integration, continuous deployment pipeline, that ability to deploy your software dozens of times per day, that's an absolute table ante for being a modern company. Not just a software company but arguably every company today needs to be doing software development like that. And then Cloud Native is a whole set of infrastructure around that to allow you to, not just have that environment in development but also to push it into production. >> So compare and contrast, based on your vision >> Dan: Umhmm. >> of how things are going to play out. A developer spends her time today doing this, and in three years, she's going to spend her time doing that. Kind of give us a sense of how >> Dan: Sure. >> you think it's going to play out. >> The simplest way to say it is that, Docker came along a few years ago, and was incredibly transformative technology for software development. It solved this really basic problem that, you hire a new employee and does it take her an entire day or entire week to get her environment together. Or can she just copy over the document container and be ready to go. And so I would argue it had the fastest uptake of any developer technology in history. But now when you have all those pieces running, okay, that's great in development, how do you get it in production? And my goal is that in a few years, hopefully much sooner, that those developers that are getting the container, they're getting the different pieces of microservices working. And then it's this tiny little YAML file that just says, here's the requirements for my application, here's what kind of redundancy it needs, what is backend databases, other sorts of things. And they're deploying it up. For most developers they can get out of that business of dev-ops. Of having to worry about all those issues. Your dev-ops team can be so much more efficient cuz Kubernetes and the related platform really enables that. >> I got to ask you, I just Tweeted cuz I had, make sure I captured it. I'm blown away by your success on the sponsorship participation. And usually it's a sign of opportunity. Because there's money making to be made, having the big vendors in there. But the growth of Kubernetes as you mentioned, all the success, we're well aware of that. But you got a lot going on. You're like got the tiger by the tail, your hair's blown back, you're running as hard as you can. Why are you guys successful? What is your gut? As executive director, you got to have the 20 mile stare but you also implement the here and now. >> Dan: Sure. >> How are you rationalizing the success? >> The most important point is, there's not some sort of magic formula, that CNCF has done or the Linux Foundation. And we're just so much better promoting or marketing it. At the end of the day, it really comes down to the developers behind Kubernetes. They've built a tool that tons and tons of people want to use. And that leverages 15 years of work that Google has done on containerization. Work that IBM and Docker and all of our other member companies, RedHat, have put together. And now, I think tiger by the tail is the right analogy. That we just happen to be, luckily, do have the technology and the constellation technology that a lot of folks want to do. The biggest thing we're trying to deal with is, some of the challenges around scaling. There's over 17 hundred authors. Individual developers contributed to Kubernetes in the last 12 months. Trying to figure out how can we get good reviews of all their codes, better documentation. >> There is a secret formula if you look at it. In away, relevance is one of them. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> Being relevant and being an awesome technology. But what I want get your thoughts in is, I looked at Kubernetes right out of the gate and said, hmm, will this be a MapReduced moment for Google. >> Dan: Yeah. >> And interesting enough, they didn't pull the same move. They didn't just let Cloud Air, walk away with or someone. >> Dan: Right, exactly. >> They made sure that if they preserved it. Google kind of let MapReduced >> Dan: Yeah, I think-- >> on the side of the road. >> Dan: No, no, I think this-- >> Cloud Air ran with it. >> Google had something that they replaced it with. I mean the -- >> SPAN is pretty damn good. >> And that's an interesting thing because in a world of strategy, across technology, and this is related to this, is that it used to be, you define a process, and then let's call it the end level process, and then you would go off and you make it obsolete because you had something that was more efficient, more effective. And then you license the old technology. And that way, the industry built capacity around the old technology and you had the new, more efficient technology that drove your business forward. And I think that, I'm not saying that's exactly, I'm not saying that Google did that, that's the tremendous >> Google knew. >> effect it will have. >> John: I have sources that tell me that. I investigated this story three years ago or maybe four, maybe three years ago. Google had conversations going up to the Eric Schmidt level, and Larry Page level, do we keep Kubernetes, do we open source it? And it went all the way to the top. And they almost wanted, they were afraid of MapReduced. Because MapReduced was a lost opportunity. Now they made it up but-- >> Now I would argue that there's a slightly subtler decision they had to make, where they have this internal system board, that is just tons of engineering and analysis and improvement has gone into it. They wrote Kubernetes as essentially next generation version of that. I think they kind of had four paths. Craig McLuckie was one of the key people behind that. Where they could have made it a proprietary service that if you're a customer of Google cloud, you get access to it. That's essentially what Amazon and Elastic Container Services today. Or they could have said, hey, we're going to open source it but we're still keep control of it. Essentially that's the path they went with the Go language. Where lots of people use it, lots of people contribute to it, but it's Google who decides at the end of the day, which direction it goes. Or they could have gone and created a Kubernetes Foundation. And if they'd gone to the Linux Foundation and said, we want to create a Kubernetes Foundation, they absolutely could have and that would have been a home for it. But when you look at all the complementary technologies that have come in, they would never have gone into a Kubernetes Foundation. So instead, they really chose the most open path of saying, no we want to have a Cloud Native Computing Foundation. Have Kubernetes be the anchor tenant for it. But then have a place that companies like Mesophere with Mesos and Docker with Docker Swarm and other partners can come in and agree on something. So today, we're really pleased to announce the container network interface, just got accepted as our 10th project. And that's used by those and also by Cloud Foundry. And then they can disagree on others, about the orchestration- >> So it's a liberating move, really, if you think about it. Because at the time this happened, there was a lot of land grab talk going on. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> Until Amazon was winning big the hockey stick was going up. >> Dan: Right. You saw the numbers, and financial performance. But there was a fear of lock-in. To your point. >> Dan: Right, exactly. >> Then Kubernetes provides a nice layer. And you guys as a group, are looking holistically and saying, choice and multi-cloud. Is that the vision? >> Definitely. But, I mean you can see, strategically why Google decided to do it. Because if you pick an open source platform, and say, hey, this is the best of breed approach. Now, you're actually willing to evaluate the cloud on what the prices are, the supplementary services, et cetera. Where before that, you might have just said, ah, AWS is the safe service, I'm going just go with that. >> But Kubernetes is an invasive technology. And I don't mean that in a bad way. (Dan laughs) >> When you decide to move with Kubernetes, you are foreclosing other options at your disposal. And so, I think what you're saying is that, Google wanted to ensure that it remained a consistent coherent thing. While at the same time, making it obvious to all those around them that also wanted to invest in it, that their investments were going to be safe and sound going forward. >> I think that's fair but on the other hand, I do want to say that very few companies have moved their entire business and all of their IT over to Kubernetes. >> Peter: Oh, I'm not saying that they would. >> We do recommend that they start with a stable service. >> Peter: But Meso and some of those other companies are now investing in Kubernetes as a platform. Or making a bet on Kubernetes, want to make sure that their bets are as good as their company is. >> Sure. But there are other orchestration plateforms still. So Kubernetes has plenty of competition. And our biggest competition of course is Enertia. Of folks not changing into anything. >> I got to ask you a question. So Leonard, our producer is just telling me, Kubernetes is boring per Craig McLuckie. So Craig said earlier in theCUBE today, Kubernetes needs to be boring. He said his biggest problem with Kubernetes is it's too exciting right now. >> Dan: That's great. Now what he means by that is, he's kind of making a play on words but his point is, it should be obstracted away. >> Dan: Yeah. In terms of Kubernetes. But that's a problem you have. It's too exciting. >> Dan: Umhmm. What's your reaction to his comment that Kubernetes needs to be boring. >> He and I did a little Google trends comparison of Kubernetes and TensorFlow, which is another open source project out of Google. TensorFlow is something like three or four acts. And artificial intelligence is just so much more interesting and exciting. And yeah, I certainly would love to see a situation. We have this metaphor for Linux, with the Linux Foundation. That we describe it as plumbing. Where it's so intrinsic to almost every piece of technology in existence. And like plumbing, you'll get very upset when if it stops working. And you'll know it and you'll complain. But there's a huge piece of what we're trying to do which is the infrastructure to make things work. >> Here's an idea. Marketing idea. Just call it AI for containers. >> Dan: That's good. >> It'll be the hottest thing on the planet. >> Dan, great to-- >> Peter: Probably be more be more exciting. >> Dan, great to see you. Congratulations on your success. >> Yeah. So I do want to just make a quick mention December sixth through eighth is CloudNativeCon and KubeCon. It's our biggest annual conference. We're looking to actually triple in size from Seattle to three thousand people or more. We have every expert coming in. Michelle Noorali and Kelsey Hightower are the co-chairs and are going to be speaking there. We would love to see a lot of you guys. >> John: In Austin. >> In Austin. >> We hope you'll be there. >> TheCUBE will be there. >> We'll definitely be there. >> Dan: As well to ah, >> We've been to the inaugural >> Dan: Exactly. >> show for KubeCon and Cloud Native conference. We'll defintely be there. December sixth through the eighth, in December, in Austin. Great time of the year to be in Texas. Congratulations on all your success. And as Kubernetes and nine other projects continue to get traction. Still exciting times. And as they say, we live in interesting times. (Dan laughs) This is theCUBE with more interesting, exciting, not boring stuff coming back from the inaugural event here at Cisco DevNet Create. I'm John Ferrier, Peter Burris. Stay with us.

>> Voiceover: Live from San Francisco, it's The Cube covering DevNet Create 2017 brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone. Live in San Francisco, this is exclusive Cube coverage of DevNet Create, Cisco's inaugural event where they're going out into the devops world into the community ingratiating and donating a million dollars for hardware, really taking their DevNet developer program to the next level, really creating an open developer devops ethos. Coverage two days. I'm John Furrier with my co-host, Peter Burris, head of wikibon.com research, also head of research SiliconANGLE Media. Our next guest is Abby Kearns, Executive director of Cloud Foundry. Welcome back to The Cube. Good to see you. >> Always a pleasure. >> I'm excited to chat with you for multiple reasons. One, you've got a hot product but at Dell EMC world more than ever you start to see the emergence of Cloud Foundry coalescing, not consolidating, coalescing the stakeholders. >> Abby: Yeah. >> And so you start to see multi-cloud starting to develop as the swim lane or a path, certainly hybrid cloud is hot. Cloud Foundry is kind of interesting right now. So, congratulations. Give us the update. What's going on? Obviously, you've got a spring in your step. What's happening? >> Well, not to be biased, but I feel like Cloud Foundry's always been interesting. >> John: Well, from a growth standpoint, now more than ever. >> Yeah, we started talking about multi-cloud a year ago. So, it's really interesting to see it really taking form in the industry where people are like, "Yes." People don't want to be locked into a single cloud. Yes, they want to have choice. And yes, they want to be able to take their workloads and move them anywhere and public cloud, right now, has gotten such amazing traction. And they're coming up with interesting things. You know, GCP is really coming into it's own and Azure's really starting to take shape. I think there's a lot of potential for a lot of features and services to really be available. >> The thing I like talking to you about is ... Talking with you is because you're in an area that is misunderstood early on. You've been beating on this drum, we've talked about this before. Andy, Jessie and I had similar conversations about this, but Amazon, how they were misunderstood in the beginning. People were dismissing it. And so there's always a tipping point. The Cube's the same way. "What do you guys do?" And we keep on ... And then people figure it out. That's kind of when the rest of the world, mainstream starts to get it and in particular, these are the model. What was the tipping point for you because I know that you had this same vision. What's the tipping point now? Why are we now is it happening? Because of the pressure? Is it because now the tools are coming to the table? What's the forcing function that's taking Cloud Foundry from this alternative approach to a viable, scalable opportunity? >> Well, I think it's always been viable. I think where we are, though, is we're seeing users starting to get traction on digital transformation. And I know digital transformation, everyone's like, "God, not that term again. We're so tired of it." But, it's true. It's more of these enterprise organizations are, "I'm now a software company," or, "I'm now competing against Airbnb or Tesla." You know, the landscape is changing and so as they realize they become software companies and they need to develop software, they're investing more in developers and development and they're like, "Oh, well, how do I do that quickly? How do I really focus on that?" Because turns out really investing in a lot of other ancillary aspects isn't core to my business. It's not changing who I am. And so investing in technology, in software in particular, allows you to differentiate your business. And so a platform like Cloud Foundry really abstracts the way an infrastructure automates that as much as possible, so the developers have the freedom to create. And that's really what's going to differentiate businesses that are becoming software companies. >> So, as you think about the developer, break it down where you think it's going to be in about five years. Because we're here at the developer conference and most of these people are folks with network expertise or folks with traditional software development expertise coming into the world where we're going to build distributed applications. Very, very important stuff. But as you think about the characteristics or how the demographics of what the developer is, how much is it going to be the professional hard-core developer, how much of it is going to be citizen development? Where do you think all this goes in five years as we start to see how all this new software gets created to serve all the business needs that are on the horizon of a digital world? >> Well, my opinion is that eventually everyone is going to be a developer of some type, whether it's taking advantage of business logic or operationalizing outcomes from machine learning or automotive AI, just taking advantage of that. But in five years, I think, where we are today, the technology is definitely growing faster than user's capability to adopt it all. So, there is a growing gap there. >> And use cases are emerging as well. So, another dimension to that complexity is new devices are connected. >> Exactly, so I think there's going to be an exponential over the next couple of years of growth in terms of the technology, what it enables, why it enables, and how the users are adopting it. Because I think we all theorize about what users could do and will do, but at the end of the day, if these large enterprise organizations start actually putting the focus and the force behind development, imagine what they can come up with. You know, look at what GE's doing with Predix, or SAP is doing with their cloud platform and think about the investment around those applications and the ability to influence where we go. You know, seven years ago we wouldn't have predicted the iPhone would be the tool that it is today. Or the iPad or the way that we actually make use of these as platforms because of the applications. The applications have really driven the innovation around that and I think we'll start seeing that the applications and the use cases really driving the innovation leaps. >> Talk about the challenges and opportunities that digital transformation has for business that are trying to get there and there's obviously different business profiles, startup, fast growing, public company, I mean, Ford. There's a customer of yours I know, I don't want to get into the whole Mark Fields thing. There's challenges at different levels of the organizations. So, to implement devops, at the end of the day, Ford's trying to get better cars, not necessarily a better cloud. Cloud enables them to do things. So, companies have to look at this and have a journey. What is the part that you see that companies are doing well from a journey standpoint and how are they laying out that digital transformation with Cloud Foundry? >> Well, I think more than a journey, they have to have a clear vision, a clear idea where they want to go. Because at the end of the day, technology shouldn't be the goal. Technology should be the enabler to achieve that goal. And ensuring that companies can maintain that clear vision, and really lead from the top with that vision, because, at the end of the day, we talk about digital transformation. Technology is a topic I talk about a lot because, obviously, Cloud Foundry's focusing on the technology piece, but the cultural shift, what it enables is really what's both critical, but also the most difficult. These organizations are trying to transform and become software companies, are also fundamentally changing their business model, their organization, and the way they leverage technology and that's a huge shift for many of these organizations. >> Actually businesses, we were talking before the camera how companies should look at that process because you have to kind of invest and it's not just the old days, you buy a general purpose software stack. Then the suppliers took care of it, say Oracle, whoever. Hey, they supply it, they turnkey, there's some TCO, total cost of ownership involved. I get that. But now, with developers, you're talking about training, you're talking about devops, you're talking about real investment. >> Restructuring, hiring, retention. It changes fundamentally the way you think about everything. How do you hire developers? How do you hire cloud native developers? How do you retain talent? How do you restructure teams? When we talk about two-pizza teams or cross-functional alignment, what that's really saying is, "Hey, I need you to rethink your entire org structure and the way that you incentivize people and motivate people." >> John: And fund it. >> And funding is like, you know, gone are the days of give me your five year plan and we'll do your capex and OPEX allocations. But it needs to be more iterative because you're encouraging agile. You're saying fell fast or iterate more. You're really saying I want you to take ideas and iterate on them, get them out the door, and then maybe that doesn't work. Maybe we try again. But the idea is to continue to iterate and innovate on that. >> Abby, what trends are you seeing in terms of pattern recognition as you go out and evangelize and support your customers with Cloud Foundry? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder depending on how you implement your cloud, IBM and others, the customers. What's the pattern that's consistent across the Cloud Foundry ecosystem that's happening right now, that's maybe different from a few years ago that's emerging? >> Well, to me, the Cloud Foundry users are key. I spend a lot of time talking to them because, for me, it's interesting. We can theorize about the technology and where it should go, but at the end of the day, how you're using it and what you're doing with it is the most important, one might say. >> John: And what are they doing? What are some examples? >> They are really starting to get traction. I mean, Comcast is a great example. The amount of traction they've gained. They have over 1000 developers working on Cloud Foundry right now. Over 10,000 applications running on it. They're doing 180 million transactions per day. That is huge. And, for them, it's not just the amount of investment they've got in it, but it's also how it's transforming the way they work. How much more productive they are and how getting better ideas out to the hands of customers. It's changing the way that they think about customers. Improving the way that they connect to their customers and that's the fundamental shift. >> Have you observed any, because we've, again, been funding the present creation of these events, especially inaugural events like DevNet Create for Cisco, which is to put their toes in the water, but they're committed to it. CubeCon, we saw that emerge. We saw Cloud Native emerge back in the 2008 timeframe with The Cube. Open Stack, obviously, has trajectory. Are you seeing a community expansion? Certainly there's expansion of the community in general. But we're seeing our Cube alumni fans here. I saw Patrick Riley earlier. I saw Lisa Marie. There's not one community any more. There's a series of new communities. OpenStack is one, you got Cloud Native Foundation, or Compute ... CNCF, you've got Cloud Foundry. There seems to be kind of like a flowing set of people in the community. What's happening in the community layers. I mean, it's all good. Does it mean anything? >> Yeah, it means open source is amazing. Because, at the end of the day, that's what's amazing about open source. We can do work with other projects in other communities. We have a great relationship with OpenStack. We have a great relationship with our sister CNCF. In fact the open service broker API project that we announced last year was a way to really take the best of great technology and make it available across other platforms and communities. Because at the end of the day, when we're talking about open source, when we're talking about bringing together diverse perspectives, diverse people to innovate more. So, collaborative R&D is where open source can really drive real value. >> It's an expansion of the community of open source. By the way, I will note that we cover, Hugh, Peter we talked about open source that have gone public. Cloud Air, MuleSoft, the list goes on and on. There's multiple new IPOs. Since RedHat and Hortonworks started that wave, so real companies. >> Real companies doing real things on open source. >> Let me push on this open source concept really quickly because it's very clear that it's been a successful model. But open source has been most successful where the marketplace has a very clear convention of what is being open source. For example, we knew what a UNIX operating system was. LINUX is an open source option. Came very clear. When you think about big data and Hadoop, the use cases of big data, the use cases associated with very complex analytics, not as clear. So, we get a lot of open source stuff that's being created that kind of marginally improves things. How is the open source world through companies like Cloud Air that can provide some leadership going to evolve to get more focus on use cases and how we're going to apply this through open source innovation, as opposed to just creating software that is defined in terms of other open source software around it? What are your thoughts on that? >> Well, I think, going back to the point about diverse participation, that's where the real innovation's happening. So, the innovation isn't really happening at a single company or a single individual. It's happening when you bring together a bunch of individuals and a bunch of different organizations with a bunch of different perspectives. Because that's where you really start to see value. Because you're thinking outside of the box that you know. When you start thinking outside of your known use case, your known customer base and start bringing in other perspectives, that's where you're really able to push the envelope a little bit more and a little bit faster and also build and accelerated ecosystem around that quickly of people that want to participate and commit to driving that and continue to drive that innovation. >> That is recruiting opportunity for the companies. I mean, we were just talking about Cisco being closer to networking side. This is an opportunity to have a foray into innovation, but also recruiting, getting some new blood in. >> What we found in our research that developers actually list that as one of their driving factors on whether or not they're going to join a company. What is their level of participation in an open source project because they want to be able to be part of something bigger. They want to be able to contribute and be able to influence where that technology is going and that is power. >> You're starting to see on GitHub on about pages companies on the executive masthead. Check out my GitHub, see what my code ... Again, this is the badge of honor like in the gaming world where you see how many merit badges you got or guns you've acquired, depending which game you do. But in a way, this is now really the resumes, not the static LinkedIn and it's like what code have you done, what communities are you in. It almost really is a testament. >> I think it's exciting because it's saying that we not only care about technology, but we care about where it's going and that's real exciting both from an open source standpoint, but also as a developer and as a business leader. That should be exciting because you're now able to influence the technology. >> Okay, final question for you Abby. What does this event mean to you? Obviously Cisco is a new event, inaugural event, very cool, very humble, very well one by Suzy and the team, but they have a DevNet Create Cisco Developer Program. Networking guys, we know there. What does this mean, in your opinion, in terms of Cisco's statement to the industry? >> I think any program that really wants to bring developers together and give them an opportunity to collaborate, and develop more, I think it's amazing. That's something that we strive for at Cloud Foundry as well in our event coming up in a couple of weeks, which I think you'll be at. >> John: We'll be there, yep. >> It's also we're trying to mimic something similar, giving an opportunity for developers to come together, share ideas, share knowledge and contribute and work together on common projects. >> Final, final question since you brought up the event. Give us a quick preview of what to expect at the Cloud Foundry Summit in San Francisco. >> Yes, so in a couple of weeks we will host Cloud Foundry Summit North America. There's some announcements that you should pay attention to. >> John: Come on, tell us! >> Some really exciting announcements. >> Put the dots out there, we'll connect them. >> Some new new members that we're excited about joining as well as some new technology announcements. But more than that, it's our first time. We've really been rejiggering the structure of the event and we like to think of ourselves of an agile foundation. And we wanted to encourage more developers to be there, so, we're offering developer language track, so with Node and Cloud Native Java and SAP's got a track. But more than that we're also going to be announcing general availability of the Cloud Foundry Certified Developer. So, we're going to offer training on site and certification on site for the first time. So, the idea is to make this a place for developers to come and share ideas and network, but also learn more about not just Cloud Foundry, but cloud native best practices. >> So, a confab with all the bells and whistles, plus now the learning tracks to make it kind of a hands-on event. Abby Kearns, executive director of Cloud Foundry here at Cisco's inaugural DevNet Create events, Cube's coverage. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris. Stay with us and check out Cloud Foundry Summit in a few weeks. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris. We'll be right back. (techno music)

>> Narrator: It's The Cube covering Sapphire Now 2017. Brought to you by S.A.P. Cloud Platform and Honna Interprise Cloud. >> Hello there, and welcome to The Cube conversation here in Palo Alto Studios, I'm John Furrier with The Cube, and we have a special guest here. Susie Wee, who's the vice president and CTO of DevNet at Cisco Systems for a Cube conversation around what's happening in cloud, and really some of the most important trends that are generating out of a new event that she's starting called DevNet Creative, which The Cube will be there. Susie, welcome to this Cube conversation. >> Hi, John. Thanks, it's great to be here. >> So, you were a pioneer within Cisco. You know, superstar technologist, CTO. You helped really put the Cisco DevNet Developer program together. Which as been a huge success. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> And that's been, you know, Cisco has a big community of geeks. They're super smart. They like to surf the web and learn, and develop new stuff on Cisco, but there's also a whole nother world, and you created an event called DevNet Create as a new initiative. A new pioneering effort. >> Absolutely. >> Why a new event? What's the big news here? >> It's really interesting. I think that what's going on is in the world of, kind of, the infrastructure, right? So the infrastructure has our networking, our compute, our storage, and all of that is changing in that it's becoming programmable, and so once it's programmable, you're like, "What?" My infrastructure has APIs. Once it has APIs, you can do things like DevOps, right? You can start to do things like really have good flexibility with how you deploy your applications, you can get much more rapid deployment of apps, and you can get, just, fundamentally, different, and improved applications. So, the big thing that's going on is that there's this huge industry transformation in front of us, and the transformation is in how applications meet infrastructure, and this has happened as applications go to the cloud, then how applications meet the cloud, apps are changing, right? Then as the infrastructure becomes programmable, there's APIs into it, so there's this really kind of fresh ground that's ahead of us, and we can make the most of this, and that's what DevNet Create is all about. >> You know, people always ask me, this is our eighth year doing The Cube, "John, you and Dave do such a good job with The Cube." "You always pick the events that are going to be good." (laughter) We did some when we were first on, I do parole, I mean, with Cloud Air, and nobody had heard of Cloud Air. We can sniff the trends out, and to me, I think you're onto something really big here, and this is why I'm excited to bring The Cube to your event. I know it's small, it's inaugural, and it's very community-oriented, but I think you guys are on fault line of a massive shift, and I think you're on the right side of this, and I think the app dynamics acquisition that Cisco did points to some of the things that going to give Cisco, I think, a big lift, and that is, by looking at the plumbing as being automated, certainly relevant, that's not going away, but as you move up the stack, there's going to be the need for rapid, rapid application deployment. >> Susie Wee: Absolutely. >> Conceive, build, ship in minutes. It could be automated with bots and AI and whatnot, so this is the trend. Talk about that dynamic, 'cause that requires a fundamental rethinking and reimagining of the Cloud, security, how packets move. >> Susie Wee: Absolutely. >> Do you agree with that, and obviously, you're running the event, so you probably have some bias there, but more importantly, this big trend. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, kind of the applications themselves, we take apps for granted these days, and we've had applications forever, right? But the applications are how people interact with the system, with the Cloud, with all the surfaces that they use everyday, so we know that everyone's lives have been transformed with apps, and then we also know that the Cloud has been huge. You know, work loads are moving with the Cloud. The Cloud has instant deployment, global resources, again, big stuff there as well, but that's going to shift again, right? So what happens is now that the Cloud is as awesome as it is, now that applications are great as they are, we're going to go to this next generation where the applications get even better, the Cloud gets even better, the way they meet, and therefore, the surfaces that people use get better. Let's have some examples of like, what could be better? Well, now that you have things like app dynamics, you can start to get information from your applications in the infrastructure that give you business insights, so let's say that you have your application running, and then you know how many times different APIs have been called. You know what parts of your systems, or your applications, are called the most. You know who's using them. You know how often they're being used, by whom, and so on. What order are they being used? All of this can start to give you business insight, so then you say, oh, the infrastructure's not just about delivering, compute, network, and storage, it's also about giving the insights into how people are using my stuff, so I can get business insights all of a sudden, and then it's a whole new world. >> Talk about how you got here, and your journey with Cisco being creating the DevNet and now DevNet Create, 'cause I think there's some trends in the industry, and we're going to be covering Sapphire, which is SAP's big show coming up in Orlando, and Cisco has some announcements, I know, I was brief under NDA on that so I really can't talk about it right now, but I do know for a fact it's going to be some significant innovations that's Cisco's bringing to the table, and they're an app provider. Now, they're older version, they're the big ERP, and the big software and framewares, and they announced Cloud Native with iOS development. This notion of, like a new breed of developers is not a mutually exclusive argument against IT, it's just the continuation. There's a dynamic going on between software developments and apps, and not only just on the business model side, but actually, technically. >> Yeah, absolutely. There's a few different things. So, first of all, an app developers can, so we have something called Meraki. Meraki is our wireless access points, it was a big acquisition we did a few years ago, and you can think of, you know, wireless access points as giving you connectivity, wireless connectivity, but now imagine that it also, you have APIs into it and it tells you how many mobile devices are connected. Where are they connected from? And where are the mobile devices located? If someone comes into your store, how many people have been there before? And how many people is it their first time there? So, this is all stuff that you can get from your wireless access points and you can start to do really interesting stuff. I think any app developer would love to have that information of what can I get? Who's in my store, or who's in my venue? And the infrastructure gives you that. >> And you guys run most, if not all the networks in the world. An IOT device and your other things that's connected to a network, wireless or wired. >> Yeah. >> And packets are moving around, so you have that data. >> We have that data, yes. So, yes, exactly. Cisco infrastructure is everywhere. >> But it's been hard to expose that over the years because Cisco's always had this notion that we play at a certain part of the stack and now it's almost like finally, after decades of conversations, I know from folks I talked to at Cisco, let's move up the stack. There's always been this push that does Cisco move up the stack and how? >> Yes, and basically the way that the way and the reason that Cisco can move up the stack now is because the infrastructure is programmable, so now, our kit, the network, is programmable. Now there's analytics that are being built into the network as things are running around, so like having a programmable network, having analytics, where you can either gather information together on how applications and things are being used, or a key, and then how do we move up the stack is when we work with the ecosystem. We work with the community, is that we have a developer program like DevNet, which is why we founded it, is we're going to enable those app developers to come to the world of the enterprise, so right now, when you have an enterprise, you know, who can write an awesome IOT app for a building, or for a casino, or for a mall, or for a hotel, it's whoever that hotel works with. Whatever system integrator they have, and that's all amazing, 'cause, you know, your building's instrumented, >> Yeah, so you don't have to >> Susie Wee: You know where people are. >> It's a horizontal market of developers versus a specific Cisco community, which you have to nurture in and of itself. >> Exactly. >> In the course of business, guys who know how to handle the packets and the networking gear, and know someone who's, hey, I know Cisco's a network provider, a network supplier, I just don't want to have to go get a training certification to get some data; just give it to me. >> That's right, and so what we can do is say, hey, here's the APIs, go to developer.cisco.com. Everything's there. Everything's free. Here's learning labs on how to use the different APIs. Here's use cases. We actually have kit in the clouds so we have a sandbox that lets people use stuff. If you want to write an app for a contact center, 'cause we sell contacts in our stuff, we have a contact center that you can write and deploy your app on. You don't have to buy one to test it, right? So it's really interesting when these apps hit these places, which is that, you know, you need a contact center, well, we'll have one for you. >> Here's the hard question. I want to put you on the spot and bring the heat, if you will. You guys have been great in your own ecosystem. Dominant for Cisco as a company. As you move into this new ecosystem, because ecosystems are now business-model parts of public companies. Cloud Air just went public. Ortenwer's went public. Viewelsoft. A new class of new kind of open-source companies are going public. You guys are not necessarily an open-source company. You have open-source initiatives. You have to now embrace a new kind of ecosystem. >> Absolutely. >> Where's the progress on this? How early is it? 'Cause I think that's what DevNet created to me, and Cisco is now going into a new market and being proactive. >> Absolutely >> The question is are you ready? Do you have the chops? Where are you in the progress of that? (laughter) >> We're ready. Now, it's going to take work to work with the community to get there, but let me just go back 'cause when we first started DeveNet three years ago, we said, hey, are those networkers and those infrastructure guys, are they really ready for programmability and software? We didn't know, and then we had out first DevNet event, and it was packed. We're like, oh my gosh, these guys are so ready, and we didn't know that at the time, so we've made good progress there, but now that we're sitting there to work with the community, I think that I'm hoping that they're going to be embracing so we're certainly going to be open. We've actually opened up, kind of, the thinking within Cisco. We've done a lot of cultural change within Cisco because people have seen the success of DevNet and of the developers outside in the world who are actually jumping in and ready to embrace programmability. >> So, it's the old data. It started home. What you did. >> It started home. >> You did with your own core. >> And then used that to then build out. >> And you guys have apps, we know, again, we go to a lot of events. I've seen Cisco around in a lot of some of the open-stores events. I was at the Nix Foundation. You guys had some presence, but it seemed like a toe in the water. How are you guys going to go big in this? >> That's what changed, is actually Cisco has had some little developer efforts and a lot of heroics done by people within Cisco. Like, hey, I have this great product, I want to run a hackathon, right? So, we've had all of these heroic attempts, but until DevNet came along, we didn't have one centrally funded program with a mandate from the CEO to go and get that programmability and develop our ecosystem out there. That's what we had now for the last three years with DevNet, so now is we go to the next layer. You're right, we do have the people who are out working with the Cloud Native, working with OpenStock, working with OpenDaylight, working in the SDN, the Lennox foundation, and what we're doing is now bringing that to the next level. Again, adding the DevNet power, now that we have kind of established our base to really embrace this, so we hope that we're going to provide a lot more, kind of, foundation so that we can go big in these cases. >> How big is the cultural change within Cisco, just give some color without giving away too many trade secrets, but I know Cisco have, and a lot of my friends worked there I've known for years, from the beginning, I've been intimate with the company's culture, and they've been a case study of dominance, just the way their competitiveness has been, the products have been great. They run the networks, but now they have to move into this open source and the community world. Talk about some of the cultural changes. Any conversations? The CEO, when you talk to him, what's the conversation like there? >> I just met with our CEO, Chuck Robins, a couple weeks ago, updated him on our progress. He actually, he an John Chambers, together, helped found DevNet, so they understand the need for it, and they helped break down the barriers and create the funding and the organization to do it, and we had to do some re-orgs to get it going originally. >> It's not just lip service, they're putting their muscle behind it. >> They're putting their effort behind it and they're dedicated to it, and they understand it. Chuck is fully behind it. He sees the importance of programmability. He actually understands the applications meet infrastructure and the transformation that can happen there, so he is super supportive all the way. He sent me a text this morning and said, "Yeah, when is DevNet Create again?" >> Great. >> So he's on top of it. He knows what we're doing. >> We'll have him on The Cube for sure. >> Absolutely. >> So applications meets infrastructure is the DevOps ethos, and that really highlights your theme. >> It does. Now, some of the other cultural change that has happened is, for example, we have something called systems engineers in our sales force. So what happens is, in our sales force, we have technical folks. We have 6,000 sales engineers around the world. Systems engineers, and they understand the technical side. They're all taking DevNet training. They're taking DevNet learning labs. They're learning to code. They're learning to use our APIs and now, the other thing is that they're now running DevNet events around the world. These guys are not only getting trained, but they are running their own developer events, and so they've picked it all up. This is a transformation that, you know, we've partnered with them on, and that's really changed what they're doing and they're realizing that, hey, there's a conversation, like, we can finally have the assets to help out app developers, and the app developers, they do need help. People have been rating mobile apps for years. Not that many of them are making money, right? The question is how do you do good to those app developers? How do you bring those app developers into the enterprise? How do you take it and make sure that when you have the newest things, like... >> I've always said: feed it data. >> Feed it data. >> Data is a great life blood of applications. >> Absolutely, and so then the applications have data. Then you start to analyze it, you get the intelligence from it right there, and then all new insight. >> The automation around provisioning all that network plumbing is really, really hard and nuanced. If you can automate that away, developers will just have parade to your door. >> Absolutely. >> Alright, so, personal question. You've been very successful in building DevNet. Building developer programs is everyone's holy grail right now. There are people in companies: "We got to build a developer program." "Throw some money at it." They might have some lip service from the CEO or full commitment. What is the key to success. To get the companies and to actually conceive, to build, and deploy a successful developer program for a company? >> Yeah, that's a good question. I have to say that building the developer program is not as easy as you would think. I would think it should be easy, like get out there, go find some web service that's running free developer community stuff >> Someone creates a free code. >> Give 'em code, and that's it? But it's actually not that at all. There is actually a few things that have been key to what we've done. One of them, and actually, I spoke about this at the Evan's developer relations conference a few weeks back, but one of the keys there is just be entrepreneurial. You actually have to be an entrepreneur even if you're in a big company, then you especially have to be entrepreneurial. >> John: You got to hustle harder. >> And what I mean is you have to hustle hard and, with few resources, you have to show quick wins fast, and you have to make bets, right? What are the kind of things we do? Well, when we first started, we actually didn't have an organization. It was me. It was a couple rebels from different parts of the org who are like, we need this, and we were making proposals. >> Skull and crossbones kind of thing going on, yeah, big time. >> And we pretended that, hey, just pretend that we have a full-blown developer program. What would you do? What we did was, we went out there, we went made developer.cisco.com, we made one site, we brought all of the APIs into one place so that developers could access it, and it was just going through and kind of building that site, which is really hard in a big company like Cisco with APIs all over the place, and we just silently launched it, and then people started discovering it. Like, oh, all of Cisco's stuff is here. Holy Cow. That was one thing. >> Go humble early. Learned from Lennox himself. >> And we actually got kind of blasted on the Twittershpere because actually on our developer page, we had one section that was actually going to just product information and not having APIs in it, and so this guy was like, that's all product stuff. That's not about APIs, so we got blasted. We were like holy crap, he's right. We went, we changed it. Got rid of all that. >> That's agile. >> And fixed it and then he became our biggest fan, right? We changed and we learned from feedback from the community. >> You applied the entrepreneurial hustle. Hustle hard and make bets. >> Susie: Make bets. >> What's your big bet that your hustling now for, and I mean hustle in a good way, DevNet Create. What's your bet? >> Our first bet back then, big bet, was the DevNet's own at Cisco Live, was let's have a developer conference at Cisco Live. We have no idea if people are going to be interested, but let's just do it. So, we got second floor of Mosconi's. >> You're going big or going home. >> Yeah, exactly, so we like boom! Kind of got the same place they have Google IO and Dreamforce. We got the space, kind of created it, didn't know if anybody would come. It was jampacked. We're like, oh my God. John Chambers came by. He told his whole staff, like, you guys have to see what's happening. The DevNet zone's now the busiest part of Cisco Live. That was our big bet then, and fortunately it paid off, and I think that's what made us part of the fabric that let us continue on, but now our big bet is DevNet Create. It's about applications hitting the infrastructure and really ensuring that the infrastructure is giving benefit to app developers. >> John: Real benefit. >> Real benefit. It's not just for the sake of business, it's actually because, to me, there's a real inflection going on in the industry. Apps can just ride on top, and then just do whatever the infrastructure can provide for them, and that'll get us to one place, but once you really think about it, then you say, okay, where does the data for the apps need to sit? Oh my gosh, there's data sovereignty issues, so it can't just sit anywhere. How do we scale out? Like, when we scale out, and you could just say, oh yeah, just go buy it and Amazon, Google, someone else will take care of it for me. Well, some of it will, and you should absolutely use... We're using all of those >> The policy stuff. >> As well, but there's policy, there's, you know, so when you're really working to scale out and understand what's critical for your business, there's more that can be had, and then now you can go to the next level of where apps can get value added business insights from the network like what we were talking about before, and then, a really big thing is just when I kind of think forward to the world of IOT, and you say again, this building is now IOT enabled. This building has APIs. It's the infrastructure, and app developers would love to get access to that. >> Peter Barris and I were talking at The Cube about a new standard we want to see. All data should be presented in less than 100 milliseconds from any database. >> Susie: Nice, nice. >> That's a moon shot, but let's think about that. That's what we want. Okay, so final question. Congratulations on all your success, and I do believe that a trend is there, the question is when will it get there. Upcoming for DevNet Create, what do you hope to bring to the community? What do you want the community to look for and expect? And what will they see? >> Absolutely. What we want is, we hope that DevNet Create is just a catalyst for this to happen. For this transformation that's happening, and we want it to help drive things with the community in a faster way than if we just let it go itself. There's basically going to be two tracks at DevNet Create. One is on Cloud and DevOps, and the other is on IOT and apps. With Cloud, there's all these questions of how are we going to take monolithic legacy apps and turn them into micro surfaces? We have the world of containers. We have the world of container orchestration and everything there. That's all really hot stuff, but the way that we move this together, bring it into full production and get all of the apps really embracing that is key. What we're hoping will happen at DevNet Create is that the world of Cloud developers, the world of app developers, IOT developers will come together with those that are working in DevOps, those in the infrastructure to really understand what are the benefits that can happen across these layers? I'm not saying that every app developer needs to become an infrastructure developer, right? I'm not saying that every developer must be an operator, but there's benefits that can happen in the right way. Really, what we're hoping is that with DevNet Create, we can drive that conversation at the event itself and then continue with the ongoing community. >> And who are you targeting specifically to the event? Non-Cisco developers or Cisco developers with a plus, with a twist, or? >> Non-Cisco developers as well as some Cisco developers as well, but it's really about the industry. Where as when you go to a traditional DevNet event, you're going to be hearing all about Cisco APIs and Cisco products and how they play together in these solutions, but at DevNet Create, 90% or more of the talks are non-Cisco. We had a call for papers. I was really nervous when we had the call for papers and I was super relieved because we had great papers come in. Actually, the only problem is that we didn't have enough slots for the great papers. We even had to turn around some really good ones. Turn away some really good ones. We have a really strong agenda, and we actually said no to more Cisco talks because we wanted it from the ecosystem. We have people from Google, from Amazon, from Howdy. There's just lots of... >> And so will this be a Cisco event going forward? Or an industry event? Because there's a trend in the event world where people are going in for the big DreamForce and the big one show, big tent, zillion people, and then a series of industry shows around open-source communities with governance. Are you guys going to make this a Cisco managed show? Or thinking about opening it up to the community to manage? What's your thoughts on the vision of that? >> We're hoping to catalyze it. We will continue to have our other Cisco DevNet events that are really about the Cisco APIs themselves and really training and bringing along that core community, and we invite all the developers to attend that as well, but we really view DevNet Create to really be an event for the community. We'd be open to doing this with cosponsors and hosting it with others. >> So you're open. >> We're open. We're actually doing this with Lennox Foundation as well, so we have them involved. Many of them are on our advisory board. We are very open. We're actually working with SiliconANGLE and The Cube. We want to do it in the most open way as possible. >> As I said, we like to sniff out all the hot events. This is one inaugural event. I think it's really, really important because it really shows Cisco's commitment to open source in a way that's been toe in the waters in the past, like you said, little rebels in the organization doing their thing trying to get the word inside Cisco, but now with the cultural shift, I think you guys have it with app dynamics. There's a business path. I see a path there and I think the community only benefits. >> Absolutely, and if the community benefits, and our goal is to actually make our community and our developers successful. That's actually our only goal. For them to be successful in their careers and their business, and that will, in turn, make Cisco successful, but really, it's really about making the community successful. >> I mean if you think about the 5G end-to-end. I mean, end-to-end architectures are winning. We do a whole segment on end-to-end, but to make it end-to-end work that's not just one company, you'd need to have a strong developer community, and I think this is kind of where I see the event's importance is true network transformation and programmability. The ethos of DevOps needs to go to the next level so cars can program themselves. I mean, everything. 5G's coming too, so a lot of new stuff happening. >> Absolutely. I don't think any major industry transformation happened with one company alone. It really takes a community, right? Be it a community of product makers, a community of solutions providers, surface providers, and consumers themselves. This is really about the community. >> Susie, congratulations on all your success, and we're looking forward to seeing DevNet Create's inaugural opening in May. Appreciate it, and great to talk to you about some of the mega trends and your perspective on that. >> And thank you for helping to drive this vision and agenda. I think that we'll be able to do this together. >> Susie, with CTO at Cisco Systems, DevNet creator and pioneer with her team of rebels, now a full on group. Really talking about the app meets infrastructure total transformation enabling all the AI in terms of vehicles, smart cities, smart home. Thanks for joining us. This is a Cube conversation. I'm John Furrier and thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts it's the Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to Boston, everybody. This is Red Hat Summit and this is the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. I'm Dave Vellante, with my co-host, Stu Miniman and Matt Hicks is here. Is the Vice President of the software engineering for OpenShift and management, at Red Hat. Matt, welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you very much, good to be here. >> So this is where all the action is, is management and management of Clouds and inter Clouds and intra clouds, and it's the sort of next big battleground and you guys seem to be, doin really well there. Have a lot of momentum. >> It's been a good year. I think it's going to be a great year going forward, cause it, it adds a lot of customer value you know, they're seeing the drive to get applications across all these environments, and I think we've hit a good balance of what we can provide in OpenShift, or middle work portfolio management and you hear a lot of customers talking about it all through summits. >> Well we saw some pretty sick demos this morning. I got to ask ya, it was basically the reference model, was okay, got some web logic, and web sphere apps. You know, wink, wink. And you want to modernize them, and so you guys just showed like a five click modernization process. Is it really that simple? Are people really, really doing that? >> Yeah. We have customers that have moved thousands of applications like that, and they're all different sorts of applications. But going from, a proprietary EE stack to getting on something closer to EAP. To deploying it on OpenShift, that is our bread and butter. And it's great because EAP can take advantage of OpenShift, lets customers re-platform the apps that they have. And like we said on Key Net, it sort of frees up your time then to start building the fun stuff. Building the next apps, and you know we've had a ton of success with that. >> Matt so we had the opportunity to talk to some of the innovation award winners. What we haven't actually gotten to cover too much yet, is all the news. So there were a number of announcements in your space, wonder if you could help us, kind of unpack for our audience. >> Sure thing. So we, You will hear a lot about the, just the enterprise production adoption, of the new technologies. Because one of the things for us, it's easy to come up and talk about new technologies. We like actually bringing customers up that have taken that new technology to production. So that's one of the big themes you'll see here at Summit. We launched OpenShift IO. Which for us actually had great success of OpenShift as Hybrid Net platform, Prod. But as you heard from United Health Group, Optum this morning. They have 10,000 plus developers to roll that out to. And we knew we needed to close the gap on how to get empowered developers. So OpenShift IO was the new Cloud based services for that. We will also announce and talk about our container health index. So when you start really making the bed on containers, how do you know what's inside of em, how do you get a simple grading system to understand like A through F. How well maintained is this. As well as being able to look under the covers and understand what goes into that A or what goes into that F. >> And maybe explain that a little bit more, because I think about like, you know, okay, I remember like in the virtualization world, I understood that. So many of containers live a lot shorter life, so, is there, is this just a dashboard that rolls that up, because I want to know probably the general health of what's going on, because there's no way humans going to be able to keep track of it. And I mean, we're not all Google with two billion containers, being brought up and killed every week. But it tends to be, at least from what I've seen, tell me if you see otherwise, that most containers are still much shorter lived than OS's. Or you know, VM4B4. >> You know I think that's, it's one of the advantages. Is that they can be pretty volatile, like that effect. You know, we have capabilities, like in OpenShift, like Image Streams driven to say, "How do you respond and incorporate this?" At the end of the day, if you can grab a container that in our world has an A rating, no security vulnerabilities today, and in a week, you could have multiple critical CVE's, that have been open that now affect that container. And so the benefit of containers is, you can re-roll em, and you can consume that update, but if you don't know about it, and you stay on that old version, you carry the same risk as if you had an out of date OS, that was very static. >> Yeah, I think that answers back to, you know, Ben Gustav, that golden image. And they would pardon that, and they'd leave it that way for two to five years. Right. And we all laughed because my friends in the security space is like, that's the biggest problem we have, is you're not ready for that. So this is, understanding what you've got out there, being able to address that, remediate, you know, push out changes, or know like hey, if you haven't, this is what you're at risk of. >> Absolutely. And that creates for us, it creates this foundation of, both trust between our customers and Red Hat, with their consuming. But then also between Red Hat and our ISV's. Because most of out ISV's, they're not in the Linux business or they're building specialized middle work capabilities on our products. So it's equally important for them to understand that if they're on an out of date version of RHEL, and they've embedded that into their container, that can cause as many problems, and they need to apply the updates in their stack as our customers. >> But that kind of gets to the business model a little bit. And you're engineering, but so I have an engineering question. But, I think most people in our audience understands that you know, Red Hat is a company built on, open source. And you know people say, "Why buy the cows, the milk is free." Well you've perfected that model, you know, 2.4 billion dollars in revenue. Three billion dollars in bookings. So you're obviously doing something right, although, not many have been able to, actually nobody's been able to create a business model like this. My question is from an engineering stand point. When, you're built on open source, and you're not, driven toward a proprietary mindset of okay, let's lock them in to the next REV. How does that change, sort of the engineering mindset, the culture and the protocol going forward. >> I love it. I have been in Red Hat 11 plus years, and everyday you're not tied into, dropping a new feature and pushing customers to that new version for revenue. And so it changes our mindset of, how do we provide value across the entire range of supported offerings that we have. In the case of RHEL, you could stay on some versions of RHEL for quite a while, and we provide value there in keeping that thing working. But at the same point, we're constantly moving this along, adding new innovation. We're able to provide value there. And it, as an engineer, it is refreshing. Sorry. >> I'll chat for a minute. So you, you know, a lot of companies that are 20 plus years old, are criticized. Oh, they don't, innovate. You hear that all the time. They do incremental R and D. And it's true. They may spend a lot on R and D, but R and D is like a feature here, or another feature there. Design, to just keep putting the crumbs out. And what you're saying is, incremental is not, really fundamental part of your plan. >> Absolutely. We can, you know, we want to provide the same value for our customer if they're on RHEL six, or they're looking towards the next major version of RHEL. And they can move anywhere on that life cycle, and that's what they get as part of their subscription. Same thing with OpenShift. And that choice of customers, of being able to take a product, consume anywhere on the life cycle of it, it's good for customers and it's nice for us, because they're just different ways that you innovate. Of driving like, the next new great feature. Then you have other customers, that you are going to provide value through stability. >> So, when you, we go to a lot of these events, as you can imagine. And when you talk to the traditional, you know, software players, you get this massive dose, of well we do that too. We do containers, and, you know, we do Cloud, and we do Hybrid, and. So help us understand, the difference between how they do it and how you do Cloud. >> I think for us, if we picked containers, you know, I was talking to a group of customers this morning of every upstream technology we pick, that we're going to pull together into our products, We don't just pick em up and re-package em and give em to a customer, because we're a support business. So if it breaks at 3 a.m and I have to re-roll a kernel to be able to fix it, I have to understand every piece in the stack. So we start with, we're going to drive a contributor position in the technologies. We pick our bets and we go all in on those areas. So Cooper Netties will carry you know with Google as you know a great technical partner, we run the majority of the SIGs with them. We have a top contributor position, and that we invest really heavily in understanding that technology inside and out. And I think that's what shows in the customer value of we could certainly take stuff, repackage it and ship it. It doesn't carry the same value as being able to work with a customer, drive new features into the product and keep them running in PROD. >> Matt so you mentioned Cooper Netties. And I was actually a little surprised this morning in the key note, I didn't hear Cooper Netties. And I think the reason was, because I heard a lot about OpenShift, and that's just your mechanism for rolling that out there. I'm assuming your customers kind of understand that maybe you could help, you know, explain that a little bit more. >> Absolutely. And so, OpenShift is our enterprise, distribution Cooper Netties is, and that's sort of the business we're in. We have Linux and RHEL is our enterprise distribution of that. We now have Cooper Netties, this really popular community. OpenShift is our distribution of that, and for our customers. >> I was just saying, I guess you couldn't call it RECK. Which, Red Hat Enterprise, Cooper Nettie, probably wouldn't be a good idea. >> The world changes too fast. You pick names a long time ago. But it's a nice motto, because we know it. It's what we've done for a long time, and it builds on everything we've done with RHEL and it connects our middleware portfolio as well. So I've been on the op side, and I've been on the development side, and I love seeing us address stuff right in the gap there for customers. And I think that's why we're seeing so much customer traction. It's a sweet spot for where they've had pain, and it adds a lot of value for em. >> Could you speak a little bit of your customers. Where are they with containers, Cooper Netties, that whole adoption. >> A lot of them in production. Which is nice. It's nice from a support business, because if you have excitement, or if you have early traction, we're a subscription business, so we want to make sure you know, the more customers use it, the more you know, they're going to grow and actually utilize it. And when you hear customers like UHG saying, the 4000 projects built on OpenShift there. Those are, they have built up significant deployments on that, and Barkways, and I know we have a whole list of em that are here today. And so I like that fact of, it's not just a cool technology. Customers have taken all the way into production. And they're being really successful with it. which as an engineer you love. You want to see people using your products and solving problems with them. >> Absolutely. Matt you talked about the ethos of commitment and committers, to open source projects. One of the challenges for a company like yours, is you got to support a lot of different projects. So though, you saying, you make your bets. We've talked a lot about okay, will there ever be another Red Hat that emerges in the big data space. You see Cloud air, and Hortonworks, and they're always sort of lookin at those guys, as possibility. But they always sight the challenge of having to support so many projects. How do you manage that and did you, you've been with Red Hat for a while, did you hit a tipping point, at some point? Cause I mean certainly you have software margin, 80, 90% you know margins. You got a great operating you know margins. So you've crossed that chasm so to speak to pick a bromide, but, others have had such a challenge. Is it because they have to support those projects and it just takes a long time? And you guys baked over 20 years. I wonder if you can give us some insight there. >> You know, I think it's as much art as it is science, I would love to say. Like this is a you know, cold formula that we apply but, we have a good gut feeling for, if you're going to back a technology, or an upstream project, you want to make sure that it's going to expand beyond your own investment, and we've certainly made a lot of wrong bets that the technology doesn't evolve. But you've got to be able to change, and when we see some of the early indicators like in Cooper Netties. Those are the ones where, we like how it's governed, we like how it's structured, we like the other players that are in there, and that's just been one of the unique aspect of Red Hat, is we pick pretty well. >> So Matt, I'm wondering if you're willing to comment, we were at Dockercon a couple of weeks ago, they've done a shift to, how they're managing kind of, but the Moby project to do the open source stuff, what's your take on that? What's Red Hat's positioning there? It's been an interesting dynamic between Docker and Red Hat to watch the last couple of years. >> Yeah you know, I think Moby for us, it's one of, it's about 16 hundred different upstream projects that we pull in across our portfolios. And so, we're certainly watching it, and we're seeing them evolve. We've been involved for the technology for a while now, but we don't necessarily know where that's going to go right now. But we certainly look a it like we do, you know the whole, breath of open source projects we pull in. >> What else is on your horizon? What's exciting you these days? >> You know, I think just seeing the reality of Hybrid Cloud becoming, it's becoming real for our customers. Where they're able, you know, you probably saw some of the Amazon announcements today where, you're able to take services, that might be in the public Cloud and now pull them on Premise. You heard customers talk about taking OpenShift and running that all the way out to the public Cloud. And we love that aspect, because you know, being able to use infrastructure to power applications, I think it's going to change IT and, then all the pieces that emanate around that, it's exciting for ISV's, it's exciting you know, around our management products from Ansible to Cloud forms. It's just a lot that we can do there. >> On the management products, you know, what Dave said, one of the Bromides out there, when I became an analyst seven years ago, it's like we can say, well it's security and management are the biggest problems we have. I feel like I can go to that well anytime I need to do. How are we doing in industry and management. Obviously you've got your position, but you know, as the surface area of the landscape is just expanding exponentially, every. You talked about how many customers are multi Cloud today. So you know, we know there's not a single thing that can do everything but, how are we doing as an industry, in Red Hot specifically? >> I think form Red hat's position, we've had a lot of success with Ansible. Just becoming a core automation technology, cause I think the one common thread is, you have so many choices, you have so many pieces, you have to start automating them. How we did IT 15 years ago, just will not. It won't scale anymore. I think building up from that stack. How you move to policy based management, that's earlier in the space. But there is a ton of capabilities and we've seen customers using, you know from our perspective, it's combining Cloud forms on orchestration, and satellite for content, Ansible for automation. Because I describe it, so I have the operation teams that run our OpenShift online environments. That's a, a relatively small group of people that manages millions of applications. And they change faster than a human could push a button. And so, as customers get into that world, you know we're certainly not in the Google world yet, but when you get that 4A it changes how you have to manage it. It has to become automated, it has to become policy driven, and then it's fun. I like it. Like doing ops in the 90s versus how you do it today. It is refreshing as an operator to just have these tools are your fingertips. >> High frequency application development. Matt thanks very >> It really is! >> Much for coming on the Cube. It's great to see you, and congratulations and good luck going forward. >> Fantastic, thanks S. >> You're welcome. Alright keep it right there everybody. Stu and I will be right back with our next guest. This is Cube, we're live from Red Hat Summit in Boston. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Munich, Germany, it's the Cube covering DataWorks Summit Europe, 2017. Brought to you by Hortonworks. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're here live in Munich, Germany, at the DataWorks 2017 Summit. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Dave Vellante with the Cube, and our next two guests are Gianthomas Volpe, head of customer development e-media for Alation. Welcome to the Cube. And we have Bertrand Cariou, who's the director of solution marketing at Trifecta with partners. Guys, welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for having us. >> Big fans of both your start-ups and growing. You guys are doing great. We had your CEO on our big data SV, Joe Hellerstein, he talked about the rang, all the cool stuff that's going on, and Alation, we know Stephanie has been on many times, but you guys are start ups that are doing very well and growing in this ecosystem, and, you know, everyone's going public. Cloud Air has filed their S1, great news for those guys, so the data world has changed beyond Hadoop. You're seeing it, obviously Hadoop is not dead, but it's still going to be a critical component of a larger ecosystem that's developing. You guys are part of that. So I want to get your thoughts of why you're here in Europe, okay? And how you guys are working together to take data to the next level, because, you know, we're hearing more and more data is a foundational conversation starter, because now there's other things happening, IOT, business analysts, you guys are in the heart of it. Your thoughts? >> You know, going to be you. >> All in, yeah, sure. So definitely at Alation what we're seeing is more and more people across the organization want to get access to the data, and we're kind of breaking out of the traditional roles around IP managing both metadata, data preparation, like Trifecta's focused on. So we're pretty squarely focused on how do we bring that access to a wider range of people? How do we enable that social and collaborative approach to working with that data, whether it's in a data lake so, or here at DataWorks. So clearly that's one of the main topics. But also other data sources within the organization. >> So you're freeing the data up and the whole collaboration thing is more of, okay, don't just look at IT as this black box of give me some data and now spit out some data at me. Maybe that's the old way. The new way is okay, all of the data's out there, they're doing their thing, but the collaboration is for the user to get into that data you know, ingestion. Playing with the data, using the data, shaping the data. Developing with the data. Whatever they're doing, right? >> It's just bringing transparency to not only what IT is doing and making that accessible to users, but also helping users collaborate across different silos within an organization, so. We look at things like logs to understand who is doing what with the data, so if I'm working in one group, I can find out that somebody in a completely different group in the organization is working with similar data, bringing new techniques to their analysis, and can start leveraging that and have a conversation that others can learn from, too. >> So basically it's like a discovery platform for saying hey, you know, Mary in department X has got these models. I can leverage that. Is that kind of what you guys are all about? >> Yeah, definitely. And breaking through that, enabling communication across the different levels of the organization, and teaching other people at all different levels of maturity within the company, how they can start interacting with data and giving them the tools to up skill throughout that process. >> Bertrand, how about the Trifecta? 'Cause one of the things that I find exciting about Europe value proposition and talking to Joe, the founder, besides the fact that they all have GitHub on their about page, which is the coolest thing ever, 'cause they're all developers. But the more reality is is that a business person or person dealing with data in some part of a geography, could be whether it's in Europe or in the US, might have a completely different view and interest in data than someone in another area. It could be sales data, could be retail data, it doesn't matter but it's never going to be the same schema. So the issue is, got to take that away from the user complexity. That is really fundamental change. >> Yeah. You're totally correct. So information is there, it is available. Alation helps identify what is the right information that can be used, so if I'm in marketing, I could reuse sales information, associating maybe with web logs information. Alation will give me the opportunity to know what information is available and if I can trust it. If someone in finance is using that information, I can trust that data. So now as a user, I want to take that data, maybe combine the data, and the data is always a different format, structure, level of quality, and the work of data wrangling is really for the end user, you can be an analyst. Someone in the line of business most of the time, these could be like some of the customers we are here in Germany like Munich Re would be actuaries. Building risk models and or claimed for casting, payment for casting. So they are not technologies at all, but they need to combine these data sets by themselves, and at scale, and the work they're doing, they are producing new information and this information is used directly to their own business, but as soon as they share this information, back to the data lake, Alation will index this information, see how it is used, and put it to this visibility to the other users for reuse as well. >> So you guys have a partnership, or is this more of a standard API kind of thing? >> So we do have a partnership, we have plan development on the road map. It's currently happening. So I think by the end of the quarter, we're going to be delivering a new integration where whether I'm in Alation and looking for data and finding something that I want to work with, I know needs to be prepared I can quickly jump into Trifecta to do that. Or the other way around in Trifecta, if I'm looking for data to prepare, I can open the catalog, quickly find out what exists and how to work with it better. >> So basically the relationship, if I get this right is, you guys pass on your expertise of the data wrangling all the back processes you guys have, and advertise that into Alation. They discover it, make it surfaceable for the social collaboration or the business collaboration. >> Exactly. And when the data is wrangled, it began indexed and so it's a virtual circle where all the data that is traded and combined is exposed to the user to be reused. >> So if I were Chief Data Officer, I'd say okay, there's three sequential things that I need to do, and you can maybe help me with a couple of them. So the first one is I need to understand how data contributes to the monetization of my company, if I'm a public company or a for profit company. That's, I guess my challenge. But then, there are other two things that I need to give people access to that data, and I need quality. So I presume Alation can help me understand what data's available. I can actually, it kind of helps with number one as well because like you said, okay, this is the type of data, this is how the business process works. Feed it. And then the access piece and quality. I guess the quality is really where Trifecta comes in. >> GianThomas: Yes. >> What about that sequential flow that I just described? Is that common? >> Yeah >> In your business, your customer base. >> It's definitely very common. So, kind of going back to the Munich Re examples, since we're here in Munich, they're very focused on providing better services around risk reduction for their customers. Data that can impact that risk can be of all kinds from all different places. You kind of have to think five, ten years ahead of where we are now to see where it might be coming from. So you're going to have a ton of data going in to the data lake. Just because you have a lot of data, that does not mean that people will know how to work with it they won't know that it exists. And especially since the volumes are so high. It doesn't mean that it's all coming in at a greatly usable format. So Alation comes in to play in helping you find not only what exists, by automating that process of extraction but also looking at what data people are actually using. So going back to your point of how do I know what data's driving value for the organization, we can tell you in this schema, this is what's actually being used the most. That's a pretty good starting point to focus in on what is driving value and when you do find something, then you can move over to Trifecta to prepare it and get it ready for analysis. >> So keying on that for a second, so in the example of Munich Re, the value there is my reduction in expected loss. I'm going to reduce my risk, that puts money in my bottom line. Okay, so you can help me with number one, and then take that Munich Re example into Trifecta. >> Yes, so the user will be the same user using Alation and Trifecta. So is an actuary. So as soon as the actuary items you find the data that is the most relevant for what you'll be planning, so the actuaries are working with terms like development triangles over 20 years. And usually it's column by column. So they have to pivot the data row by row. They have to associate that with the paid claims the new claims coming in, so all these information is different format. Then they have to look at maybe weather information, or additional third party information where the level of quality is not well known, so they are bringing data in the lake that is not yet known. And they're combining all this data. The outcome of that work, that helps in the Reese modeling so that could be used by, they could use Sass or our older technology for the risk modeling. But when they've done that modeling and building these new data sets. They're, again, available to the community because Alation would index that information and explain how it is used. The other things that we've seen with our users is there's also a very strong, if you think about insurances banks, farmer companies, there is a lot of regulation. So, as the user, as you are creating new data, said where the data coming from. Where the data is going, how is it used in the company? So we're capturing all that information. Trifecta would have the rules to transform the data, Alation will see the overall eye level picture from table to the source system where the data is come. So super important as well for the team. >> And just one follow up. In that example, the actuary, I know hard core data scientists hate this term, but the actuaries, the citizen data scientist. Is that right? >> The actuaries would know I would say statistics, usually. But you get multiple level of actuaries. You get many actuaries, they're Excel users. They have to prepare data. They have to pin up, structure the data to give it to next actuary that will be doing the pricing model or the next actuary that will risk modeling. >> You guys are hitting on a great formula which is cutting edge, which is why you guys are on the startups. But, Bertrand I want to talk to you about your experience at Informatica. You were the founder the Informatica France. And you're also involved in some product development in the old, I'd say old days, but like. Back in the days when structured data and enterprise data, which was once a hard problem, deal with metadata, deal with search, you had schemes, all kinds of stuff to deal with. It was very difficult. You have expertise. I want you to talk about what's different now in this environment. Because it's still challenging. But now the world has got so much fast data, we got so much new IOT data, especially here in Europe. >> Oh yes. >> Where you have an industrialized focus, certainly Germany, like case in point, but it's pretty smart mobility going on in Europe. You've always had that mobile environment. You've got smart cities. A lot of focus on data. What's the new world like now? How are people dealing with this? What's your perspective? >> Yes, so there's and we all know about the big data and with all this volume, additional volume and new structure of data. And I would say legacy technology can deal as you mentioned, with well structured information. Also you want to give that information to the masses. Because the people who know the data best, are the business people. They know what to do with the data, but the access of this data is pretty complicated. So where Trifecta is really differentiating and has been thinking through that is to say whatever the structure of the data, IOT, Web Logs, Value per J son, XML, that should be for an end user, just metrics. So that's the way you understand the data. The next thing when play with data, usually you don't know what the schema would be at the end. Because you don't know what the outcome is. So, you are, as an end user, you are exploring the data combining data set and the structure is trading as you discover the data. So that is also something new compared to the old model where an end user would go to the data engineer to say I need that information, can you give me that information? And engineers would look at that and say okay. We can access here, what is the schema? There was all this back and forth. >> There was so much friction in the old way, because the creativity of the user is independent now of all that scaffolding and all the wrangling, pre-processing. So I get that piece of the Citizen's Journal, Citizen Analyst. But the key thing here is you were shrecking with the complexity to get the job done. So the question then comes in, because it's interesting, all the theme here at DataWorks Summit in Europe and in the US is all the big transformative conversations are starting with business people. So this a business unit so the front lines if you will, not IT. Although IT now's got to support that. If that's the case, the world's shifting to the business owners. Hence your start up. Is that kind of getting that right? >> I think so. And I think that's also where we're positioning ourselves is you have a data lake, you can put tons of data in it, but if you don't find an easy way to make that accessible to a business user, you're not going to get a value out of it. It's just going to become a storage place. So really, what we've focused on is how do you make that layer easily accessible? How do you share around and bring some of the common business practices to that? And make sure that you're communicating with IT. So IT shouldn't be cast aside, but they should have an ongoing relationship with the business user. >> By the way, I'll point out that Dave knows I'm not really a big fan of the data lake concept mainly because they've turned it into data swamps because IT deploys it, we're done! You know, check the box. But, data's getting stale because it's not being leveraged. You're not impacting the data or making it addressable, or discoverable or even wrangleable. If that's a word. But my point is that's all complexities. >> Yes, so we call it sort of frozen data lake. You build a lake, and then it's frozen and nobody can go fishing. >> You play hockey on it. (laughs) >> You dig and you're fishing. >> And you need to have this collaboration ongoing with the IT people, because they own the infrastructure. They can feed the lake with data with the business. If there is no collaboration, and we've seen that multiple times. Data lake initiatives, and then we come back one year after there is no one using the lake, like one, two person of the processing power, or the data is used. Nobody is going to the lake. So you need to index the data, catalog the data to know what is available. >> And the psychology for IT is important here, and I was talking yesterday with IBM folks, Nevacarti here, but this is important because IT is not necessarily in a position of doing it because doing the frozen lake or data swamp because they want to screw over the business people, they just do their job, but here you're empowering them because you guys are got some tech that's enabling the IT to do a data lake or data environment that allows them to free up the hassles, but more importantly, satisfy the business customer. >> GeanThomas: Exactly. >> There's a lot of tech involved. And certainly we've talked to you guys about that. Talk about that dynamic of the psychology because that's what IT wants. So what's that dev ops mindset for data, data ops if you will or you know, data as code if you will, constantly what we've been calling it but that's now the cloud ethos hits the date ethos. Kind of coming together. >> Yes, I think data catalogs are subtly different in that traditionally they are more of an IT function, but to some extent on the metadata side, where as on the business side, they tended to be a siloed organization of information that business itself kept to maintain very manually. So we've tried to bring that together. All the different parties within this process from the IT side to the govern stewardship all the way down to the analysts and data scientists can get value out of a data catalog that can help each other out throughout that process. So if it's communicating to end users what kind of impact any change IT will make, that makes their life easier, and have one way to communicate that out and see what's going to happen. But also understand what the business is doing for governance or stewardship. You can't really govern or curate if you don't know what exists and what matters to the business itself. So bring those different stages together, helping them help each other is really what Alation does. >> Tell about the prospects that you guys are engaging in from a customer standpoint. What are some of the conversations of those customers you haven't gotten yet together. And and also give an example of a customer that you guys have, and use cases where they've been successful. >> Absolutely. So typically what we see, is that an organization is starting up a data lake or they already have legacy data warehouses. Often it's both, together. And they just need a unified way of making information about those environments available to end users. And they want to have that better relationship. So we're often seeing IT engaged in trying to develop that relationship along with the business. So that's typically how we start and we in the process of deploying, work in to that conversation of now that you know what exists, what you might want to work with, you're often going to have to do some level of preparation or transformation. And that's what makes Trifecta a great fit for us, as a partner, is coming to that next step. >> Yeah, on Mobile Market Share, one of our common customers, we have DNSS, also a common customer, eBay, a common customer. So we've got already multiple customers and so some information about the issue Market Share, they have to deal with their customer information. So the first thing they receive is data, digital information about ads, and so it's really marketing type of data. They have to assess the quality of the data. They have to understand what values and combine the value with their existing data to provide back analytics to their customers. And that use case, we were talking to the business users, my people selling Market Share to their customers because the fastest they can unboard their data, they can qualify the quality of the data the easiest it is to deliver right level of quality analytics. And also to engage more customers. So it was really was to be fast onboarding customer data and deliver analytics. And where Alatia explain is that they can then analyze all the sequel statement that the customers, maybe I'll let you talk about use case, but there's also, it was the same users looking at the same information, so we engage with the business users. >> I wonder if we can talk about the different roles. You hear about the data scientists obviously, the data engineer, there might be a data quality professional involved, there's certainly the application developer. These guys may or may not even be in IT. And then you got a DVA. Then you may have somebody who's statistician. They might sit in the line of business. Am I overcomplicating it? Do larger organizations have these different roles? And how do you help bring them together? >> I'd say that those roles are still influx in the industry. Sometimes they sit on IT's legs, sometimes they sit in the business. I think there's a lot of movement happening it's not a consistent definition of those different roles. So I think it comes down to different functions. Sometimes you find those functions happening within different places in the company. So stewardship and governance may happen on the IT side, it might happen on the business side, and it's almost a maturity scale of how involved the two sides are within that. So we play with all of those different groups so it's sometimes hard to narrow down exactly who it is. But generally it's on the consumptions side whether it's the analyst or data scientists, and there's definitely a crossover between the two groups, moving up towards the governance and stewardship that wants to enable those users or document curing the data for them all the way to the IT data engineers that operationalize a lot of the work that the data scientists and analysts might be hypothesizing and working with in their research. >> And you sell to all of those roles? Who's your primary user constituency, or advocate? >> We sell both to the analytics groups as well as governance and they often merge together. But we tend to talk to all of those constituencies throughout a sales cycle. >> And how prominent in your customer base do you see that the role of the Chief Data Officer? Is it only reconfined within regulated industries? Does he seep into non-regulated industries? >> I'd say for us, it seeps with non-regulated industries. >> What percent of the customers, for instance have, just anecdotally, not even customers, just people that you talk to, have a Chief Data Officer? Formal Chief Data Officer? >> I'd say probably about 60 to 70 percent. >> That high? >> Yeah, same for us. In regulated industries (mumbles). I think they play a role. The real advantage a Chief Data and Analytical Officer, it's data and analytics, and they have to look at governance. Governance could be for regulation, because you have to, you've got governance policy, which data can be combined with which data, there is a lot. And you need to add that. But then, even if you are less regulated, you need to know what data is available, and what data is (mumbles). So you have this requirement as well. We see them a lot. We are more and more powerful, I would say in the enterprise where they are able to collaborate with the business to enable the business. >> Thanks so much for coming on the Cube, I really appreciate it. Congratulations on your partnership. Final word I'll give you guys before we end the segment. Share a story, obviously you guys have a unique partnership, you've been in the business for awhile, breaking into the business with Alation. Hot startups. What observations out there that people should know about that might not be known in this data world. Obviously there's a lot of false premises out there on what the industry may or may not be, but there's a lot of certainly a sea change happening. You see AI, it gives a mental model for people, Eugene Learning, Autonomous Vehicles, Smart Cities, some amazing, kind of magical things going on. But for the basic business out there, they're struggling. And there's a lot of opportunities if they get it right, what thing, observation, data, pattern you're seeing that people should know about that may not be known? It could be something anecdotal or something specific. >> You go first. (laughs) >> So maybe there will be surprising, but like Kaiser is a big customer of us. And you know Kaiser in California in the US. They have hundreds or thousands of hospitals. And surprisingly, some of the supply chain people where I've been working for years, trying to analyze, optimizing the relationship with their suppliers. Typically they would buy a staple gun without staples. Stupid. But they see that happening over and over with many products. They were never able to sell these, because why? There will be one product that have to go to IT, they have to work, it would take two months and there's another supplier, new products. So how to know- >> John: They're chasing their tail! >> Yeah. It's not super excited, they are now to do that in a couple of hours. So for them, they are able, by going to the data lakes, see what data, see how this hospital is buying, they were not able to do it. So there is nothing magical here, it's just giving access to the data who know the data best, the analyst. >> So your point is don't underestimate the innovation, as small as it may seem, or inconsequential, could have huge impacts. >> The innovation goes with the process to be more efficient with the data, not so much building new products, just basically being good at what you do, so then you can focus on the value you bring to the company. >> GianThomas what's your thoughts? >> So it's sort of related. I would actually say something we've seen pretty often is companies, all sizes, are all struggling with very similar, similar problems in the data space specifically so it's not a big companies have it all figured out, small companies are behind trying to catch up, and small companies aren't necessarily super agile and aren't able to change at the drop of a hat. So it's a journey. It's a journey and it's understanding what your problems are with the data in the company and it's about figuring out what works best for your solution, or for your problems. And understanding how that impacts everyone in the business. So it's really a learning process to understand what's going- >> What are your friends who aren't in the tech business say to you? Hey, what's this data thing? How do you explain it? The fundamental shift, how do you explain it? What do you say to them? >> I'm more and more getting people that already have an idea of what this data thing is. Which five years ago was not the case. Five years ago, it was oh, what's data? Tell me more about that? Why do you need to know about what's in these databases? Now, they actually get why that's important. So it's becoming a concept that everyone understands. Now it's just a matter of moving its practice and how that actually works. >> Operationalizing it, all the things you're talking about. Guys, thanks so much for bringing the insights. We wrangled it here on the Cube. Live. Congratulations to Trifecta and Alation. Great startups, you guys are doing great. Good to see you guys successful again and rising tide floats all boats in this open source world we're living in and we're bringing you more coverage here at DataWowrks 2017, I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Stay with us, more great content coming after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: theCUBE presents On the Ground. (light electronic music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to this special exclusive On the Ground Cube coverage here at Oracle's Headquarters. I'm John Furier the host of theCUBE, I'm here with my guest, Brad Tewksbury, who's the Senior Director of Business Development for the big data team at Oracle, welcome to On the Ground. >> Thank you, John, good to be here. >> So big day, Brad, you've been in this industry for a long time, you've seen the waves come and go. Certainly at Oracle you've been here for many, many years. >> Yeah. >> Oracle's transforming as as a company and you've been watching it play out. >> Brad: Yeah. >> What is the big thing that's most notable to you that you could illustrate that kind of highlights the Oracle transformation in terms of where it's come from? Obviously the database is the crown jewel, but this big data stuff that you're involved in is really transformative and getting tons of traction. With the Cloud Machine kind of tying in, is this kind of a similar moment for Oracle? Share some thoughts there. >> Yeah I think there's many, if you look at the data management path from going back to client server to where we are today, data has always played a pivotal role, but I would say now every customer is going through this decision making process where they're saying, "Ah-ha data I'm being disrupted by all different companies." Before it was you know, okay I got my data in a database and I do some reporting on it and I can run my business, but it wasn't like I was going to be disrupted by some digital company tomorrow. >> Cause the apps and the databases were kind of tied together. >> They were tied together and things just didn't move as fast as they do today. Now it's in these digital-only companies, they realize that data is their business, right? I think one of the pivotal things that we've been doing some studies with MIT is that 84% of the SMP value of some of these companies comes from companies that have no assets, right? Just data, so like UBER doesn't own any taxis. Airbnb doesn't own any hotels, yet they've got massive valuation, so companies are starting to freak out a little bit and they're starting to say, "Oh my god, I got to leverage my data." So the seminal moment here is saying, "How do I monetize my data?" Before it wasn't this urgency, now there's a sense of like I got to do something with this data, but the predicament they're in is, especially these legacy companies is they've got silos of stuff that's not talking to each other, it's all on different versions and different vendors. >> Well, Oracle's always been in the database business, so you made money by creating software to store data. >> Brad: Right. >> Now it sounds like there's a business model for moving the data around, is that kind of what I'm getting here? So it's not just storing the data software, store the data, it's software to make the data. >> Brad: Yeah. >> Accessible. Yeah, it's three things, I think it's three things. It's ingesting the data, right, from new sources outside of the company, so sensors and social media, right that's one thing. Secondly, it's then managing the data, which we've always done, and then the third thing is analyzing it, so it's that whole continuation and then what's happened here is the management platform is expanded. It's gone from just a relational base to this whole SEQUEL world and this Hadoop world, which we completely support. By no means is this relational a zero-sum game, where it's relational or nothing at all, it's we've expanded the whole data management platform to meet the criteria of whatever the application is and so these are the three data management platforms today, who knows what's going to come tomorrow, we'll support that as well, but the idea is choose the right platform for the application and what's really becoming about is applications, right? And this data management stuff is obviously table stakes, but how do I make my applications dynamic and real-time based on what I have here? >> Four years ago, and CUBE audience will remember, we did theCUBE in Hadoop World, that's called back then before it became Strata Hadoop and O'Reilly and Cloudera Show, but Mike Olson and Ping Lee said, "Oh we have a big data fund," so they thought there was going to be a tsunami of apps, never really happened. Certainly Hadoop didn't become as big as people had thought, but yet Analytics rose up, Analytics became the killer app. >> Brad: Yeah. >> But now we're beyond Analytics. >> Brad: Yeah. >> The use of data for insights, where are the apps coming from now? You had Rocana, here we had Win Disk Scope providing some solutions, where do you guys see the apps coming from? Obviously Oracle has their own set of apps, but outside of Oracle, where are the apps? >> So yeah, it's an interesting phenomena, right? Everyone thought Hadoop is the next great wave and the reality is if you go talk to customers and they're like, "Yeah, I've heard of it, but what do I do with it?" So it's like apps are like what's going to drive this whole stack forward and to that end, the number one thing that people are looking for is 360 view of customers, they all want to know more about customer. I was talking with a customer who represents the equivalent of the Tax Bureau of their county and instead of putting the customer, it's the taxpayer or the customer's at the center and all the different places that you pay taxes, so they want to have one view of you as the taxpayer, so whether you're public entity, private, the number one thing that the apps that people are looking for is show me more about customer. If I'm a bank, a retail, they want to cross-sell that's the number one app. In telcos, they want to know about networking. How do I get this network? I want to understand what's going on here so I can better support my Support Center, but secondary to that we're in this kind of holding pattern. Now what are the next set of apps and so there's a bunch of start-ups here in Silicon Valley that are thinking they have the answer for that and we're partnering with them and opening up a Cloud Marketplace to bring them in and we'll let customers decide who's going to win this. >> Talk about Rocana and their value proposition, they're here talking to us today, what's the deal with Rocana? >> So Rocana is an interesting play, what they have found is that customers, one of the ways they talk about themselves, is they offer a data warehouse to IT. So if I'm the IT guy, I want to go in and have basically a pool of all kinds of log analysis. How's my apps running, do I need to tune the apps? How's the network running, they want a one bucket of how can my operation perform better? So what we've seen from customers is they've come to us and they've said, "okay, what have you got in this new space "of Hadoop that can do that?" Look at log analysis and all kinds of app performances from a Hadoop perspective. They were one of the people, the first persons to answer that, so they're having great success finding out where security breaches are, finding out where network latencies are, better like I said, looking at logs and how things co6uld run better, so that's what they're answering for customers is basically improving IT functions, right, because what's happening is a lot of business people are in charge, right, and they're saying, "I no longer want "to go to IT for everything, I want to be able to just go to basically a data model and do my own analysis of this, "I don't want to have to call IT for everything." So these guys in some way are trying to help that manta. >> Talk about Win Disk Scope, what are they talking about here and how is their relationship with Oracle? They're speaking w6ith us today as well. >> Yeah, so you know, in this big data world what we're seeing a lot of is customers doing a lot of what we call a lab experiment. So they got all this data and they want to do lab experiments, okay great. So then they find this nugget of okay, here's a great data model, we want to do some analysis on this, so let's turn it into a production app. Okay, then what do you do, how do you take it to production? These are the guys that you would call. So they take it into an HA high-availability environment for you and they give you zero data loss, zero down time to do that. One of the things that Oracle's, we're touting is the differentiator in our Cloud is this hybrid approach where you have, you know, you could start out doing test-dev in the Cloud, bring it back on Primm, vice versa, they allow you to do that sync, that link between the Cloud and on Primm. We work today with Cloud Air, we OEM them in our big data appliance, if the customer has Hortonworks, but they also want to work with our stuff, their go-between with that as well. So it's basically they're giving you that production-ready environment that you need in an HA world. >> Brad, thanks for spending some time with us here On the Ground, really appreciate it. >> Yeah. >> I'm John Furier, we're here exclusively On the Ground here at Oracle Headquarters, thanks for watching. (light electronic music)

it's the cube covering vmworld 2015 brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem sponsors and now your host dave vellante welcome back to vmworld 2015 we're here at moscone north this is the cube the cube goes out we extract the signal from the noise Brian Gracie and I are really thrilled we have a jay patel here is the senior vice president of product development for VMware cloud services the future I love it yeah great to see you thanks for coming on the cube appreciated thanks so big event here we saw Monday the announcement of you know the hybrid cloud the strategy you laying out a lot of vision it's a lot of products that you can get today a lot that you know have a little road map to them but huge crowd would think the number is Robin told us yesterday 23,000 absolutely great energy so congratulations how do you feel feel great he'll be tired to feel great the excitement the momentum it's really great conversation with customers partners it's been a good VMO how have you spent your time here you do in customer meetings presentations no it's a lot of press interviews for presentations a lot of service provider meetings I'm also responsible with bill for the vCloud air network business mm-hmm it's refreshing to see that we've kind of struck the right balance between having our own service but also enabling our service provider community so so what so talk about the scope of your responsibility so I work for Bill father's I'm part of the vcard survey because air our cloud services be you we have two roles we are a proud provide ourselves which is vCloud air with products or presence in the North America amia Japan and the latest edition big Australia so in this case we're standing up a VMware operated cloud and we're running that we also provide all our IP that we build for a cloud we make that available to our service provider partners we have 4,000 service provider partners who leverage VMware technology to run a VMware power cloud so for us success is delivering on both fronts VMV cloud air as a business but also VMware power cloud and owning the public cloud market with vmware technology that's really my juicy responsible for for strategy the auto service you want P&L absolutely so with Bill I'm responsible for running the service ov powder and then my partner Jeff waters works for bill is responsible to be cloudier network where we take my software and monetize that to the ricotta and not work to help them power their car as well okay so you made native announcements this week maybe you could take us through those and in fact you know what why don't we back up can you kind of give us the journey of we caught the offering yeah absolutely so we caught there a two-year-old service when we first started you know North America predominantly with three data centers we extended to five we added our FedRAMP certified data centers so on one scale we started to provide the geographic reach we opened our UK data center than Germany joint venture with Softbank and then a joint venture with Telstra for Australia in Japan so we've got the geographic reach we were able to kind of serve directly 1880 some odd percent of the core cloud market so let's hear one cloud markets in the regions there we're going native in those market as a service provider we also then took our technology which is vcd which is we cloud director and we're just rolling out an announcement of our 80 product this quarter which is our cloudstack our on-demand platform our cloud platform make that available to our service provider partners and with the rest of the partners there 99 percent coverage of the global cloud market today so VMware today are pretty proud to say you can get a VMware cloud service anywhere in the world ninety-nine percent come so what about the reactions to what was announced this week you know I think from the tech weenies in us we love the remotion across on frame and public cloud that that applause of having the vm move from on prem live into a week where a couple of customers say you know what I've been asking that for three years it's good to see you finally delivering on that a hard technology problem but that was probably the most sexy announcement if you will from a technology perspective on the second side it's all about containers in in that example I'll ask Pat because I asked him to square the circle for me I don't if you heard this question whereas you would always here for instance joe tucci and paul gill senior talk about the advantage that the hyper scalars had because of homogeneity right yet you've said your strategy is to manage heterogeneous cloud environment so how do we do that and Pat's point was well for certain things we have to have homogeneity and I'm presuming that demo is one where you've got to have homogeneity to me the world is going to be about what I call compatibility right how do I make sure that I have a compatible cloud and it's going to be infrastructure compatibility and then more importantly application compatible if I cannot make my application workload portables how I'm going to move the workload to where I needed to run so that big technical challenges are making the workload portable at the infrastructure level because of the hypervisor and some of the work we've done on NSX etc we're making the infrastructure programmable and abstracting away the workload from the infrastructure we're decoupling the binding of the application and the infrastructure from the physical infrastructure and then the next step is how do I make it easily available on any cloud which is the work we're sorry important when you announced the offering four years ago you made a big deal that look we are going to share the IP with our ecosystem you really laid down that commit we got a lot of questions about it absolutely probably got some heat too but but how has that worked out how is it at all you know give us a passing grade I think we could do better then I'll be honest where we've done a great job as we've invested in the people we come up with something called a V cloud technology kit we've taken our best practices and how to build it we release vcd 80 which is a capability but our customers one that we motion capably tomorrow so that lag between us having something we demo to getting the hands of service provider we need a string that time so the work we need to put in place is really delivering and agility and the speed by which they can absorb this technology and stand up in their own cloud environment the area we've done better is we've made made possible new program called an MSP program I managed services provider program where smaller cloud provider doesn't want to stand up their own card can resell a week loud air service so it's it's I would say a good passing rate more work to be done yeah you know one of the big themes this week is one cloud it's any application anybody in one cloud that one cloud for you is not only you know vCloud air it's the vCloud air work helped us understand how big is the vCloud air network not just the number of partners because everybody's got lots of partners but you know put it in proportion how we know roughly how big vCloud air is that the VMware runs what is what is that partner network look like is it is it the typical 8020 model where eighty percent of that business is what does it look like how big is that so so I don't have the exact numbers to share but if I were to do a back of the napkin I'm going to speculate right I would say the vCloud air network plus B cloud air together it's probably bigger or as big as a or someone like the in a public cloud market it's a significant public cloud presence if we're not number two or number three from overall public cloud market spin so let's assume it's a 50 billion dollar market span I would say let's say you know Amazon's thirty percent of it the next twenty percent of it is a week loud air network+ vCloud air it's of that size and scale representative it's a major provider so in the mix today vCloud air is growing fast and it's a big portion but the numbers will always be I believe we cut our network will be a bigger portion than vCloud air at any given time but the whole pillars need to grow in paralyzer market is exploding am I correct that the differentiation really is kind of what you talked about monday is the ability to take that huge install base right that you have and enable it to do what the vision of the promise of the hybrid cloud has always been I mean it nobody else really does that I mean amazon refuses to do that right microsoft kind of has trying to do that you know so maybe can do that at some point and that's really your wheelhouse can you talk about the difference yes so what when we first started our first customers would kick our tires right and they would use it for dev tests and they say you know this stuff looks pretty good they said what if I take some of my vm that are not protected and protect them in avocado and we started to see dr really take off for that was kind of a killer use case now I T is being asked to really look at not building out any more data center spaces they're saying guys we cannot afford to build infrastructure and a natural choice for IT as they're starting to come into the age of cloud is who's the best choice i'm already using vmware on prem the starting to think about a data center extension use case or data center replacement use case they're looking at vcloud as a strategic loud so the exciting news for this week has been the number of customers saying in the next two years I want to be out of the data center business you're on my destination cloud let's solve those hybrid use cases to move data between VMs between the clouds is really what we're seeing the most exciting part so it's that ease of moving workloads is really exciting with so it's SiliconANGLE Wikibon we have some experience we have a you know the crowd chat relationship crowd chat forum is an app that's like it we used to run it and you know Nicole oh that's it by our own servers and it was a nightmare so we decided to go to the club we went to Amazon and our developers you know took some time to get it up there was painful right but once it was up and running it worked well so we have some experience with the various clouds and one of the things we found cuz people always does for SiliconANGLE and the Cuban is hey we should run in our cloud and when we go to investigate we find that certain things aren't there you know things like elastic Beanstalk aren't mature or you know other little things are just in beta etc I wonder if you could give us an indication of how mature any cloud air is from that standpoint you know and how you can you know expect what gives you confidence that you can compete with that pace that Amazon you know we often get dinged in terms of the breadth of capably amazon offer it is pretty impressive the rate at which they're innovating very impressive when you go back to the enterprise workloads and look at the customer use cases they probably 10 or 15 services that are critical the two big gaps we had was we didn't have a database service RDS we didn't have an RDS competitor out there we just announced sequel air this week we didn't have a good object service if you're starting to build something natively in the cloud in an object service the video start to bridge these key gaps with doing that today and Gartner has a metric whether measure the ayahs capability of each of the vendors I'm happy to say that if we were to benchmark today were ahead of Google right behind a jour to be capable wise a complete I aspect in in the what some people would call the pass piece of that that database as a service is part of the interpreters a service is that right so we're starting to add these application services it's my background come from Oracle Iran Oracle's middleware business we're starting to build both organically our services but more importantly vmware is a partner friendly company our customers want their best to breed on vs to work in the cloud so the service is like Jenkins for continuous integration as a service they want to use perforce if that's the source code management system to be available as a repository of recovery so our strategy is to enable our isp ecosystem make them available so you won't see everything coming from the VMware factory but the ecosystem will deliver best of class solutions and services on Macleod air both those are the mounts work is an interesting you know workload I mean you have demand from customers that mean certainly have a working order we were one of the first to say virtualize Oracle with VMware oh damn the torpedoes and work there were a lot of interest there unfortunately Oracle has the licensing practices it forces them and more in a dedicated environment so we can support Oracle but unfortunately because of the right system restriction we have to set them in a dedicated cloud you need specialized hardware to run oracle now that now they may relax that over time I mean it's been their practice in the past to do that all right i mean so you would expect it as there are customers today use two things either leave the data on Prem and take the web tier in the front end and then connect back to to database like Oracle sometimes they're just moving out at Oracle using a my sequel cluster to run their web scale websites open that's the choice though that larry has to make it a point of which the customer says okay if you want to lock me into the hole or call approach at the risk of losing my database business and then if that happens then Oracle will loosen up on those recover that's how that work will behave the customers will drive them you're ready to catch him with what do you what do you think so so if i looked back at amazon web services two years in only a couple of services a handful of them you guys are two years in you know handful of services but if i look at who their customers say it's it's directly focused on developers i mean they're going after developers the number of services they come out i mean it's 10 15 20 30 a year how do you who is your customer what's your developer story because right now i mean if i'm talking about moving VMS there's not a developer on the planet who cares about moving in vm how do you talk to a developer and get them to come to your so let's address both sides so we definitely our IT focus and we have an inside-out strategy when its IT driven it's about moving workloads from on-prem to cloud when you have a developer conversations about building that new applications the application environment in the enterprise is not just about green field but off for an application extension I want to add a mobile front end to my enterprise application in front of my sa fie my ERP system etc we've announced mobile backend service for example as a service on top of each other so we're starting to provide those selective use cases where our customers our enterprise IT developers if you will that's our target it's the enterprise IT developer who's looking to put a mobile front end was looking to build a digital experience that's integrated back into the into the use case and you saw the hybrid extension use case and we talked about is really what's driving this so developer story driven by a customer demand around mobile as a spearhead and building the rich set of service so we've been talking about this a little bit this week and we had a good discussion with Pat about it he's like look is the the the are the operations guys you know or the developers really want to become operations guys it's really a lot of your guys are really ops dev right supporting the developer community that's what you're trying to do is enable suppose it's both providing them the frameworks and the tools so in the new develop and it's not about building an application ground up its composing applications taking services and putting them together and we're offering those services but also giving them the tool chain to build new application than an agile way so I guess it has to be both right because you're trying to expand your tan absolutely new areas how do you how do you take advantage of all the assets in the Federation I mean we had rodney rogers on from virtustream he was talking about you know going after SI p and maybe you you don't need just one cloud you can use multiple you announced an object service but it's not based on emc we have an object service with emc as well right both why we have the clout you know the cloud foundry service you know I can I can install it but I can't get it why isn't the Federation stuff tighter why isn't it going faster I mean it is in the Federation you will see this accelerate and I think we if you look at the last year in terms of where progress has been made EMC object service available today our data protection built on albemarle so very strong leverage around that in the pillow case most of our customers use paths for private cloud that's been the design center we have a pws enterprises you the multi-tenant cloud that tends to be more a trial code so we're really about the enterprise customer and the enterprise customers saying hey give me a dedicated pass on frame or ricotta we support that well they're not asking for our multi-tenant kind of engine yard or Uhuru coo that's not our base that tends to be the smaller developer where again focused on the enterprise mark so what's a typical customer scenario like you guys you get a hardcore VMware customer and you start talking to them about the opportunities for hybrid cloud I'll give you three or four different one is to give you the breadth of them right the simple use case if it's an IT operations driven one it's driven around data center migration it's around data sent extension we have the likes of large University that that's looking to complete shut down our data center and move into that so that's kind of a data center use case we have Columbia sports or we're looking at how harley-davidson harley-davidson has the entire dealer network the point of sale system running on vCloud air we have likes of betfair they built an application is more cloud native that dynamically when you were betting and you're right at the last minute you need a spike up capacity their application seamlessly spawns into week our air takes capacity and delivers that that's a cloud native application that's built around that so we see the spread breath off from everything from data center use cases extension capacity on demand use cases all the way to dev test use cases dr to really cloud native applications in that span the spectrum with mobile being the newest addition we have farmers who starting to build a mobile app you so the my vmware ab that you're using today for vmworld that's running on vCloud air using our mbaise service so we're starting to get covered an entire spectrum of enterprise use cases today yeah I've and I you know just just as a piece of i mean i would i would say the ability for you guys to tell that story right now it comes across as being vmware centrum you know very vm sin infrastructure centric you're allowing the rest of the cloud industry to sort of define for you what that is so if that's really your story if your customers are saying look I have a ton of applications you may want to extend them to mobile but I want to want to move them for data center and that's a huge space you know we are forecast even out until 2016 only say that public cloud becomes a third there's a huge amount of enterprise applications that need to go somewhere you know move forward somehow and they need to know what how to help with that so I leave you with that if you have s ap as a workload and you can move the workload on frame or cloud and then extend the workload with mobile any great SI p to Salesforce this is direction where we're going you saw the keynote it had mobile front and center it showed a demo of a mobile app that's been this is clearly move VMware moving from infrastructure to application services extending the reach beyond just infrastructure capacity building that new digital application at Sunday's experience at Sanjay's background so AJ what last question what keeps you up at night not not personal stuff but business you know what keeps me up at night is really how do we scale this business even faster how do i meet the demand my challenges that moved from getting customers to scaling the service fast enough to support the customer the conversation had with some of my customers today they would want to move thousands of vm in the next six months how do we ramp up so quickly how do we support them how do we advise them how do we get this scale going so the challenge is going to be how do we scale quickly I mean that is the floodgates are starting to open up more critical you got demand on the one hand I'm competition the other you've got the scale and you of course you know you don't have that lock in at the top end of the apps layer so you know that game well absolutely she's got skill so his delivery is awesome a great conversation really appreciate you coming so much appreciate you meeting you thank you so much I keep rising everybody will be back to wrap vmworld 2015 right after this you