>> Announcer: Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering Cisco Live 2020 brought to you by Cisco and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage, it's our fourth day of four days of coverage here in Barcelona, Spain for Cisco Live 2020. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Stu Miniman and two great guests here in the DevNet studio where the theCUBE is sitting all week long, been packed with action, Mandy Whaley, Senior Director Developer Experience, Cisco DevNet and Par Merat, Senior Director welcome back to this CUBE. Good to see you guys. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Glad to be here. >> So, we have had a lot of history with you guys from day one. >> Mandy: Yes. >> Watching DevNet from an idea of "Hey, we should do developer thing." And you also have DevNet Create which is a separate, more developer focused. DevNet and Cisco's developer environment. We've been there from the beginning, what a progression! Congratulations on the success. >> Thank you. Thank you so much, it's great to be here in Barcelona with everybody here, you know, learning in the workshops, and we just love these times to connect with our community at Cisco Live, and At DevNet Create, which you mentioned, which is coming up in March. So its right on the corner. >> DevNet Zone which we're in has been really robust, it's been the talk of the show every year, and it gets bigger and the sessions are packed, because people are learning developers, new developers as well as Cisco engineers who are certified, are coming getting new skills as the modern cloud hybrid environments require new skills. It's a technology shift. >> Yeah, exactly and what we have in the DevNet Zone are different ways that the engineers and developers can engage with that technology shifts. So, we have demos around IoT and security, and showing how, you know, to prevent threats from attacking the industrial routers and things like that. We have coding workshops from beginning, intro to Python, intro to Gets, all the way up through advanced, like, Kubernetes topics and things like that. So, people can really dive in with what they're looking for. And this year, we are really excited because we have the new DevNet certifications with those exams coming out right around the corner in February. So, a lot of people are here saying, "I am ready to skill up for those exams, "I am starting to dive into these topics." >> Well, Susie Wee was on, she's the chief of DevNet, among other things, and she said, there's going to be a DevNet 500. The first 500 certifications of DevNet are going to be, kind of, like, the hall of fame or, you know, inaugural or founder certifications. So, can you explain what does it mean? It's not a DevNet certification badge. It's a series of different, can go deeper than that? >> Yeah, just like we have our, you know, existing Network Certifications which are so respected and loved around the world, people get CCIE tattoos and things. Just like there is an associate and professional and expert level on the networking track, there's now a DevNet Associate, a DevNet Professional and coming soon DevNet Expert. And then there's also Specialist badges which help you add specific skills like data center automation, IoT web access. So, it's a whole new set of certifications that are more focused on the software. So they're about 80% software skills, 20% knowledge of networking, and then how you really connect up and down the stack. >> So these are new certifications, they're not replacing anything else >> No, no, no they're all the same stuff? >> They are new, they are part of the same program, they have the same rigor, the same kind of test. They actually have ways to interweave with the existing networking certifications, because we want people to do both skill path, right, to build this new IT team of the future. And so, it's a completely new set of exams. The exams are going to be available to take February 24th, and you can start signing up now. So, with the DevNet 500, you know, that's going to be a special recognition for the first 500 people who get DevNet certifications. It'll be life-time achievement, they'll always be in a DevNet 500, right? And I've had people coming up and telling me, you know "I'm signed up for the first day, "I'm taking my exams on the first day, "I'm trying to get into that." >> Stu and I always want to be on the list, so I think we might be on the 500 study up there (laughs). >> Of course, yeah, And what's really great is with the certifications, we've heard from people in the Zone that, they have been coming and taking classes and learning the skills, but they didn't have a specific way to map that to their career path to get rewarded at work, you know, to have that sort of progression. And so with the certifications they will really will have that. And it's also really important for our partners and Par Merat is doing lot of work with certifications and partners. >> Yeah, Par, definitely, I would love to hear a little bit, we've interviewed on theCUBE over the years some of the DevNet partners from a technology standpoint, of course the channel ecosystem hugely important to Cisco's business. Give us the update as to, you know, DevNet partnering as well as, what will these certifications mean to about the technology and go-to-market partners? >> Yeah, the wonderful thing about this is, it really demonstrates Cisco's embracement of software, and making sure that we are providing that common language for software developers and networkers to bring the two together. And what we've found is that our partners are at different levels of maturity along that progression of programmability. And this new DevNet specialization, which is anchored in the individuals that are now certified at that partner, allow them to demonstrate from a go-to-market standpoint, from a recognition standpoint, that as a practice they have these skills. And look, at the end of the day, it's all about delivering what our customers need. And our customers are asking us for significant help in automation, digital transformation, they're trying to drive new business outcomes. And this will provide that recognition on who to partner with in the market. >> Yeah, this is so important I remember when Cisco helped a lot of the the partner ecosystem build data center practices. Went from the silos and now embracing, you've got the hardware the software, we're talking multicloud. It's the practice that is needed today going forward to help customers with with where they are going. >> It really is. And another benefit that we are finding in talking to our partners is where packaging this up and rolling it out, is not only will it help them from a recognition standpoint, from a practice stand point and from a competitive differentiation standpoint. But it will also help them attract talent. I mean, it's no secret, there is a talent shortage right now. If you talk to any CEO that's top of mind, and how these partners are able to attract these new skills and attract smart people. Smart people like working on smart things, right? And so this has really been a big traction point for them as well. >> It's also giving ways to really specifically train for new job roles. So some of the ways that you can combine the new DevNet certifications with the network engineering certifications. We've looked at it and said, you know, there's a role of network automation developer. That's a new role. Everyone we ask in one of our sessions, "Who needs that person on their team?" So many customers, partners raise their hands saying, "We want the Network Automation Developers on our team." And you can combine your CCNP Enterprise with a DevNet certification and build up the skills to be that Network Automation Developers >> Certainly it's been great buzz. I've got to get your guys' thoughts because certainly it's great for careers and you guys are betting on the people, and the people are betting on Cisco. This is what's going on, it's a maturity of DevNet, almost. It's like a pinch-me moment for you guys, but you continue to grow. I've got to ask you, what are some of the cool things that you're showing here? As you mature, you still have the start here session, which is intro to Python and other things, pretty elementary, and then there's more advanced things. What are some of the new things that's going on that you could share? >> So some of the new things we've got going on, one of my favorites is the IoT and security demonstration. There's an industrial robot arm that's picking and placing things, and you can see how it's connected to the network and then something goes wrong with that robot arm. And then you can actually show how you can use the software and security tools to see was there code trying to access, you know, something that that robot was using, that's getting in the way of it working? So you could detect threats and move forward on that. We also have a whole automation journey that starts from modeling your network to testing, to how you would deploy automation, to a deep dive on telemetry and then ends with multi-domain automation. So really helping engineers, like, look at that whole progression, that's been really popular. >> Par, talk about the specialization, which ones are more, I'd say popular or entry level, which ones are people coming into getting certified first, network engineering, automation first? Or what's the-- >> Yeah, so the program's going to to roll out with three different levels. One is a specialized level, the second is an advanced level, and then we'll look to that third level. Again, they're anchored in the individual certs. And so as we look for that entry level, it's really all about automation, right? I mean, some things you take for granted, but you still need these new skills to be able to automate and scale, and have repeatable, scalable benefits from that. The second tier will be more cross-domain and that's where we're really thinking that additional skill set is needed to deliver dashboard experience, compliance experiences, and then that next level, again, will anchor towards the expert level that's coming out. But one thing I want to point out is, in addition to just having the certified people on staff, they also have to demonstrate that they have a practice around it. So it's not just enough to say, "I passed an exam." As we work with them to roll out the practice and they earn the badge, they're demonstrating that they have the full methodology in place so that it really, there's a lot behind it. >> So that means we can't be in the 500 list then even if we pass (laughs). >> Well, you might be able to be in the 500 list, but I don't know that theCUBE would end up being specialized. >> It's good banner advertising. No, seriously all fun, it's all fun. Cisco Live in Europe. Is there a difference between European and U.S.? Are you seeing any differences in geographic talent? >> You know what, the first couple of years that we did it, I think there was a bigger difference. It felt like there were different topics that were very popular in the U.S., slightly different in Europe. Last year and this year I feel, like they have converged. It's the same focus on DevOps, automation, security is a huge focus in both places. And it also feels like the interest and level of the people attending has also converged. It's really similar. Congratulations, it's been fun to watch the rise and success of DevNet, continues to be strong, obviously in the hub here, and the DevNet zone behind us, packed sessions. >> Mandy: Yes, yes. >> What's the biggest surprise for you guys in terms of things that you didn't expect or some of the success, what's jumped out? >> Yeah, I think, you know, one of the points that I want to make sure we also cover and it has been an added benefit. We were hoping it would happen, we just didn't realize it would happen this soon. We're attracting new companies, new partners, so the specialization won't just be available for our traditional VARs. This is also available for our non resellers and we are finding different companies accessing DevNet resources and learning these skills. So that's been a really great benefit of DevNet overall. >> Definitely, my favorite surprises are when I show up at the community events and I hear from someone I met last year what they went back and did, and the change that they drove in their company. And I think we're seeing those across the board of people who start a grassroots movement, take back some new ideas, really create change, and then they come back and we get to hear about that from them. Those are my favorite surprises. >> And I tell you, we've known for years how important the developer is, but I think the timing on this has been perfect because it is no longer just, Oh, the developer has some tools that they'd liked in the corner. The developer connected to the business and driving things forward. >> Mandy: Exactly. So perfect timing, congratulations on the certification-- >> The other thing that's been great is that Cisco itself, we now have APIs across the whole portfolio and up and down the stack. So that's been a wonderful thing to see come together because it opens up possibilities for all these developers. >> So Cisco is API first company? >> We are building APIs everywhere we can, and the community is taking them and finding creative things to build. >> Well, it's been fun to watch you guys change Cisco, but also impact customers has been great to watch. Par many thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Yeah, thank you. >> theCUBE's live coverage here in Barcelona for Cisco Live 2020 I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, Stu Miniman. Be right back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

>>Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the Cube covering Cisco Live 2020 right to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back, everyone to the Cube's live coverage Day four of four days of wall to wall action here in Barcelona, Spain, for Cisco Live. 2020. I'm John Furrier with my co host Dave Volante, with a very special guest here to wrap up Cisco Live. The president of Europe, Middle East Africa and Russia. Francisco Wendy Mars Cube Alumni. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on to. I kind of put a book into the show here. Thanks for joining us. >>It's absolutely great to be here. Thank you. >>So what a transformation. As Cisco's business model of continues to evolve, we've been saying brick by brick, we still think big move coming. I think there's more action. I can sense the walls talking to us like Cisco live in the US and more technical announcement. In the next 24 months, you can see you can see where it's going. It's cloud, it's APS. It's policy based program ability. It's really a whole another business model shift for you and your customers. Technology shift in the business model shift. So I want to get your perspective this year. Opening. Keynote. Oh, you let it off Talking about the philosophy of the business model, but also the first presenter was not a networking guy. It was an application person. App dynamics. Yep, this is a shift. What's going on with Cisco? What's happening? What's the story? >>You know, if if you look for all of the work that we're doing is is really driven by what we see from requirements from our customers to change, that's happening in the market and it is all around. You know, if you think digital transformation is the driver organizations now are incredibly interested in, how do they capture that opportunity? How do they use technology to help them? But, you know, if you look at it, really, there's the three items that are so important it's the business model evolution. It's actually the business operations for for organizations. Plus, there people, they're people in the communities within that those three things working together. And if you look at it with, it's so exciting with application dynamics there because if you look for us within Cisco, that linkage off the application layer through into the infrastructure into the network. And bringing that linkage together is the most powerful thing because that's the insights and the value our customers are looking for. >>You know, we've been talking about the the innovation sandwich, you know, you got data in the middle and you've got technology and applications underneath. That's kind of what's going on here, but I'm glad you brought up the part about business model. This is operations and people in communities. During your keynote, you had a slide that laid out three kind of pillars. Yes, people in communities, business model and business operations. There was no 800 series in there. There was no product discussions. This is fundamentally the big shift that business models are changing. I tweeted provocatively, the killer wrap in digital business model. Because you think about it. The applications are the business. What's running under the covers is the technology, but it's all shifting and changing, so every single vertical every single business is impacted by. This is not like a certain secular thing in the industry. This is a real change. Can you describe how those three things are operating with that can >>sure. I think if you look from, you know, so thinking through those three areas. If you look at the actual business model itself, our business models is organizations are fundamentally changing and they're changing towards as consumers. We are all much more specific about what we want. We have incredible choice in the market. We are more informed than ever before. But also we are interested in the values of the organizations that we're getting the capability from us as well as the products and the services that naturally we're looking to gain. So if you look in that business model itself, this is about, you know, organizations making sure they stay ahead from a competitive standpoint about the innovation of portfolio that they're able to bring, but also that they have a strong, strong focus around the experience, that they're customer gains from an application, a touch standpoint that all comes through those different channels, which is at the end of the day, the application. Then if you look as to how do you deliver that capability through the systems, the tools, the processes? As we all evolve, our businesses have to change the dynamic within your organization to cope with that. And then, of course, in driving any transformation, the critical success factor is your people and your culture. You need your teams with you. The way teams operate now is incredibly different. It's no longer command and control. It's agile capability coming together. You need that to deliver on any transformation. Never, never mind. Let it be smooth, you know, in the execution they're all three together. >>But what I like about that model and I have to say, this is, you know, 10 years of doing the Cube, you see that marketing in the vendor community often leads what actually happens. Not surprising as we entered the last decade, there's a lot of talk about Cloud. Well, it kind of was a good predictor. We heard a lot about digital transformation. A lot of people roll their eyes and think it's a buzzword, but we really are. I feel like exiting this cloud era into the digital era. It feels, really, and there are companies that get it and are leaning in. There are others that maybe you're complacent. I'm wondering what you're seeing in Europe just in terms of everybody talks digital, every CEO wants to get it right. But there is complacency. Their financial services said Well, I'm doing pretty well, not on my watch. Others say, Hey, we want to be the disruptors and not get disrupted. What are you seeing in the region? In terms of that sentiment, >>I would say across the region, you know, there will always be verticals and industries that slightly more advanced than others. But I would say that the bulk of conversations that I'm engaged in independence of the industry or the country in which we're having that conversation in there is a acceptance off transfer. Digital transformation is here. It is affecting my business. I if I don't disrupt, I myself will be disrupted and we challenged Help me. So I You know, I'm not disputing the end state and the guidance and support soon drive the transition and risk mitigated manner, and they're looking for help in that there's actually pressure in the board room now around a what are we doing within within organizations within the enterprise service, right of the public sector, any type of style of company. There's that pressure point in the board room of Come on, we need to move it speed. >>Now the other thing about your model is technology plays a role and contribute. It's not the be all end. All that plays a role in each of those the business model of business operations developing and nurturing communities. Can you add more specifics? What role do you see technology in terms of advancing those three years? >>So I think, you know, if you look at it, technology is fundamental to all of those fears in regard. Teoh Theo innovation that differentiation technology could bring the key challenges. One being able to apply it in a manner where you can really see differentiation of value within the business. So and then the customer's organization. Otherwise, it's technology for the sake of technology. So we see very much a movement now to this conversation of talk about the use case, the use cases, the way by which that innovation could be used to deliver value to the organization on also different ways by which a company will work. Look at the collaboration Kate Capability that we announced earlier this week of helping to bring to life that agility. Look at the the APP D discussion of helping the link the layer of the application into the infrastructure of the network to get to root, cause identification quickly and to understand where you may have a problem before you actually arises and causes downtime many, many ways. >>I think the agility message has always been a technical conversation. Agile methodology, technology, softer development, No problem check. That's 10 years ago. But business agility is moving from a buzz word to reality. Exactly. That's what you're kind of getting. >>Their teams have. Teams operate, how they work and being able to be quick, efficient, stand up, stand down and operate in that way. >>You know, we were kind of thinking out loud on the Cube and just riffing with Fabio Gori on your team on Cisco's team about clarification with you, Gene Kim around kind of real time. What was interesting is we're like, Okay, it's been 13 years since the iPhone, and so 13 years of mobile in your territory in Europe, Middle East Africa mobility has been around before the iPhone, so more advanced data privacy much more advanced in your region. So you you you have a region that's pretty much I think, the tell signs for what's going on North American around the world. And so you think about that. You say Okay, how is value created? How the economics changing this is really the conversation about the business model is okay. If the value activities are shifting and being more agile and the economics are changing with SAS, if someone's not on this bandwagon is not an end state discussion, very. It's done Deal. >>Yeah, it's But I think also there were some other conversation which, which are very prevalent here, is in the region so around trust around privacy law, understanding compliance. If you look at data where data resides, portability of that data GDP our came from Europe has pushed out on those conversations will continue as we go over time. And if I also look at, you know, the dialogue that you saw, you know, within World Economic Forum around sustainability that is becoming a key discussion now within government here in Spain, you know, from a climate standpoint and many other areas >>as well. David, I've been riffing around this whole where the innovation is coming from. It's coming from your region, not so much the us US. We've got some great innovations. But look at Blockchain. Us is like, don't touch it pretty progressive outside United States. A little dangerous to, But that's where innovation is coming from, and this is really the key that we're focused on. I want to get your thoughts on. How do you see it going? Next level? The next level. Next. Gen Business model. What's your What's your vision? >>So I think there'll be lots of things if we look at things like it with the introduction. Introduction of artificial intelligence, Robotics capability five g of course, you know, on the horizon we have Mobile World Congress here in Barcelona a few weeks time. And if you talked about with the iPhone, the smartphone, of course, when four g was introduced, no one knew what the use case where that would be. It was the smartphone, which wasn't around at that time. So with five G and the capability there, that will bring again yet more change to the business model for different organizations and capability and what we can bring to market >>the way we think about AI privacy data ownership becomes more important. Some of the things you were talking about before. It's interesting what you're saying. John and Wendy, the GDP are set this standard and and you're seeing in the US they're stovepipes for that standard California is gonna do want every state is gonna have a difference, and that's going to slow things down. It's going to slow down progress. Do you see sort of an extension of GDP, our like framework of being adopted across the region, potentially accelerating some of these sticky issues and public policy issues that can actually move the market forward? >>I think I think that will because I think there'll be more and more if you look at this is terminology of data. Is the new oil What do you do with data? How do you actually get value from that data? Make intelligent business decisions around that? So, yeah, that's critical. But yet if you look for all of ours, we are extremely passionate about where's our data used again? Back to trust and privacy. You need compliance, you need regulation. And I think this is just the beginning off how we will see that >>evolving. You know, when you get your thoughts. David, I've been riffing for 10 years around the death of storage. Long live storage. But data needs to be stored somewhere. Networking is the same kind of conversation just doesn't go away. In fact, there's more pressure now to get the smartphone. That was 13 years ago, before that. Mobility, data and Video. Now super important driver. That's putting more pressure on you guys. And so hey, we did well, networking. So it's kind of like Moore's Law. More networking, more networking. So video and data are now big your thoughts on video and data video. >>But if you look out the Internet of the future, you know what? So if you look for all of us now, we are also demanding as individuals around capability and access of. That's an Internet of the future. The next phase. We want even more so they'll be more more requirement for speed availability, that reliability of service, the way by which we engage in we communicate. There's some fundamentals there, so continuing to grow, which is which is so, so exciting force. >>So you talk about digital transformation that's obviously in the mind of C level executives. I got to believe security is up. There is a topic one other. What's the conversation like in the corner office when you go visit your customers? >>So I think there's a There's a huge excitement around the opportunity, realizing the value of the of the opportunity on. You know, if you look at top of mind conversations around security around, making sure that you can make taint, maintain that fantastic customer experience because if you don't the customer go elsewhere, How do you do that? How do you enrich at all times and also looking at market? Jason sees, you know, as you go in a new tour at senior levels, within, within organizations independent of the industry in which they're in. They're a huge amount of commonalities that we see across those of consistent problems by which organizations are trying to solve. And actually, one of the big questions is what's the pace of change that I should operate us on? When is it too fast? And one is one of my too slow and trying to balance that is exciting but also a challenge for a company. >>So you feel like sentiment. There's still strong, even though we're 10 years into this, this bull market you get Brexit, China tensions with US US elections. But but generally you see sentiment still pretty strong demand. >>So I would say that the the the excitement around technology, the opportunity that is there around technology in its broader sense is greater than ever before. And I think it's on all of us to be able to help organizations to understand how they can consume and see value from us. But it's a fantastic times, >>gets economic indicators way. So >>I know you >>have to be careful, >>but really, the real I think I'm trying to get to is is the mindset of the CEO. The corner office right now is it is that we're gonna we're gonna grow short term by cutting or do we going to be aggressive and go after this incremental opportunity? And it's probably both. You see a lot of automation in cars >>both, and I think if you look fundamentally for organizations, it's it's the three things helped me to make money, how to save money, keep me out of trouble. So those are the pivots they all operate with on, you know, depending on where an organization is in its journey, whether they're start up there in the middle, the more mature and some of the different dynamics and the markets in which they operate in a well, there's all different variables, you know? So it's it's it's mixed. >>Wendy, thanks so much to spend the time to come on. The Cube really appreciate great keynote folks watching. If you haven't seen the keynote opening section, that's good. Second, the business model. I think it's really right on. I think that's gonna be a conversation will continue. So thanks for sharing that before we look. Before we leave, I want to just ask a question around, What? What's going on for you here in Barcelona? As the show winds down, you had all your activities. Take us in the day in the life of what you do. Customer meetings. What were some of those conversations? Take us inside inside. What? What goes on for you here? >>I tell you, it's been an amazing It's been amazing few days, So it's a combination of customer conversations around some of the themes We just talked about conversations with partners. There's investor companies that we invest in a Cisco that I've been spending some time with on also spending time with the teams as well. The definite zone, you know, is amazing. We have this afternoon the closing session where we got a fantastic, um, external guests who's coming in is going to be really exciting as well. And then, of course, the party tonight and will be announcing the next location, which I'm not going to reveal now. Later on today, >>we kind of figured it out because that's our job is to break news, but we're not gonna break it for you to have that. Hey, thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate. When any market in Europe, Middle East Africa and Russia for Cisco she's got her hand on the pulse and the future is the business model. That's what's going on. Fundamentally radical change across the board in all areas. This is the Cube, bringing you all the action here in Barcelona. Thanks for watching. >>Yeah, yeah,

>> Announcer: Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering Cisco Live 2020 brought to you by Cisco and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage, it's our fourth day of four days of coverage here in Barcelona, Spain for Cisco Live 2020. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Stu Miniman and two great guests here in the DevNet studio where the theCUBE is sitting all week long, been packed with action, Mandy Whaley, Senior Director Developer Experience, Cisco DevNet and Par Merat, Senior Director welcome back to this CUBE. Good to see you guys. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Glad to be here. >> So, we have had a lot of history with you guys from day one. >> Mandy: Yes. >> Watching DevNet from an idea of "Hey, we should do developer thing." And you also have DevNet Create which is a separate, more developer focused. DevNet and Cisco's developer environment. We've been there from the beginning, what a progression! Congratulations on the success. >> Thank you. Thank you so much, it's great to be here in Barcelona with everybody here, you know, learning in the workshops, and we just love these times to connect with our community at Cisco Live, and At DevNet Create, which you mentioned, which is coming up in March. So its right on the corner. >> DevNet Zone which we're in has been really robust, it's been the talk of the show every year, and it gets bigger and the sessions are packed, because people are learning developers, new developers as well as Cisco engineers who are certified, are coming getting new skills as the modern cloud hybrid environments require new skills. It's a technology shift. >> Yeah, exactly and what we have in the DevNet Zone are different ways that the engineers and developers can engage with that technology shifts. So, we have demos around IoT and security, and showing how, you know, to prevent threats from attacking the industrial routers and things like that. We have coding workshops from beginning, intro to Python, intro to Gets, all the way up through advanced, like, Kubernetes topics and things like that. So, people can really dive in with what they're looking for. And this year, we are really excited because we have the new DevNet certifications with those exams coming out right around the corner in February. So, a lot of people are here saying, "I am ready to skill up for those exams, "I am starting to dive into these topics." >> Well, Susie Wee was on, she's the chief of DevNet, among other things, and she said, there's going to be a DevNet 500. The first 500 certifications of DevNet are going to be, kind of, like, the hall of fame or, you know, inaugural or founder certifications. So, can you explain what does it mean? It's not a DevNet certification badge. It's a series of different, can go deeper than that? >> Yeah, just like we have our, you know, existing Network Certifications which are so respected and loved around the world, people get CCIE tattoos and things. Just like there is an associate and professional and expert level on the networking track, there's now a DevNet Associate, a DevNet Professional and coming soon DevNet Expert. And then there's also Specialist badges which help you add specific skills like data center automation, IoT web access. So, it's a whole new set of certifications that are more focused on the software. So they're about 80% software skills, 20% knowledge of networking, and then how you really connect up and down the stack. >> So these are new certifications, they're not replacing anything else >> No, no, no they're all the same stuff? >> They are new, they are part of the same program, they have the same rigor, the same kind of test. They actually have ways to interweave with the existing networking certifications, because we want people to do both skill path, right, to build this new IT team of the future. And so, it's a completely new set of exams. The exams are going to be available to take February 24th, and you can start signing up now. So, with the DevNet 500, you know, that's going to be a special recognition for the first 500 people who get DevNet certifications. It'll be life-time achievement, they'll always be in a DevNet 500, right? And I've had people coming up and telling me, you know "I'm signed up for the first day, "I'm taking my exams on the first day, "I'm trying to get into that." >> Stu and I always want to be on the list, so I think we might be on the 500 study up there (laughs). >> Of course, yeah, And what's really great is with the certifications, we've heard from people in the Zone that, they have been coming and taking classes and learning the skills, but they didn't have a specific way to map that to their career path to get rewarded at work, you know, to have that sort of progression. And so with the certifications they will really will have that. And it's also really important for our partners and Par Merat is doing lot of work with certifications and partners. >> Yeah, Par, definitely, I would love to hear a little bit, we've interviewed on theCUBE over the years some of the DevNet partners from a technology standpoint, of course the channel ecosystem hugely important to Cisco's business. Give us the update as to, you know, DevNet partnering as well as, what will these certifications mean to about the technology and go-to-market partners? >> Yeah, the wonderful thing about this is, it really demonstrates Cisco's embracement of software, and making sure that we are providing that common language for software developers and networkers to bring the two together. And what we've found is that our partners are at different levels of maturity along that progression of programmability. And this new DevNet specialization, which is anchored in the individuals that are now certified at that partner, allow them to demonstrate from a go-to-market standpoint, from a recognition standpoint, that as a practice they have these skills. And look, at the end of the day, it's all about delivering what our customers need. And our customers are asking us for significant help in automation, digital transformation, they're trying to drive new business outcomes. And this will provide that recognition on who to partner with in the market. >> Yeah, this is so important I remember when Cisco helped a lot of the the partner ecosystem build data center practices. Went from the silos and now embracing, you've got the hardware the software, we're talking multicloud. It's the practice that is needed today going forward to help customers with with where they are going. >> It really is. And another benefit that we are finding in talking to our partners is where packaging this up and rolling it out, is not only will it help them from a recognition standpoint, from a practice stand point and from a competitive differentiation standpoint. But it will also help them attract talent. I mean, it's no secret, there is a talent shortage right now. If you talk to any CEO that's top of mind, and how these partners are able to attract these new skills and attract smart people. Smart people like working on smart things, right? And so this has really been a big traction point for them as well. >> It's also giving ways to really specifically train for new job roles. So some of the ways that you can combine the new DevNet certifications with the network engineering certifications. We've looked at it and said, you know, there's a role of network automation developer. That's a new role. Everyone we ask in one of our sessions, "Who needs that person on their team?" So many customers, partners raise their hands saying, "We want the Network Automation Developers on our team." And you can combine your CCNP Enterprise with a DevNet certification and build up the skills to be that Network Automation Developers >> Certainly it's been great buzz. I've got to get your guys' thoughts because certainly it's great for careers and you guys are betting on the people, and the people are betting on Cisco. This is what's going on, it's a maturity of DevNet, almost. It's like a pinch-me moment for you guys, but you continue to grow. I've got to ask you, what are some of the cool things that you're showing here? As you mature, you still have the start here session, which is intro to Python and other things, pretty elementary, and then there's more advanced things. What are some of the new things that's going on that you could share? >> So some of the new things we've got going on, one of my favorites is the IoT and security demonstration. There's an industrial robot arm that's picking and placing things, and you can see how it's connected to the network and then something goes wrong with that robot arm. And then you can actually show how you can use the software and security tools to see was there code trying to access, you know, something that that robot was using, that's getting in the way of it working? So you could detect threats and move forward on that. We also have a whole automation journey that starts from modeling your network to testing, to how you would deploy automation, to a deep dive on telemetry and then ends with multi-domain automation. So really helping engineers, like, look at that whole progression, that's been really popular. >> Par, talk about the specialization, which ones are more, I'd say popular or entry level, which ones are people coming into getting certified first, network engineering, automation first? Or what's the-- >> Yeah, so the program's going to to roll out with three different levels. One is a specialized level, the second is an advanced level, and then we'll look to that third level. Again, they're anchored in the individual certs. And so as we look for that entry level, it's really all about automation, right? I mean, some things you take for granted, but you still need these new skills to be able to automate and scale, and have repeatable, scalable benefits from that. The second tier will be more cross-domain and that's where we're really thinking that additional skill set is needed to deliver dashboard experience, compliance experiences, and then that next level, again, will anchor towards the expert level that's coming out. But one thing I want to point out is, in addition to just having the certified people on staff, they also have to demonstrate that they have a practice around it. So it's not just enough to say, "I passed an exam." As we work with them to roll out the practice and they earn the badge, they're demonstrating that they have the full methodology in place so that it really, there's a lot behind it. >> So that means we can't be in the 500 list then even if we pass (laughs). >> Well, you might be able to be in the 500 list, but I don't know that theCUBE would end up being specialized. >> It's good banner advertising. No, seriously all fun, it's all fun. Cisco Live in Europe. Is there a difference between European and U.S.? Are you seeing any differences in geographic talent? >> You know what, the first couple of years that we did it, I think there was a bigger difference. It felt like there were different topics that were very popular in the U.S., slightly different in Europe. Last year and this year I feel, like they have converged. It's the same focus on DevOps, automation, security is a huge focus in both places. And it also feels like the interest and level of the people attending has also converged. It's really similar. Congratulations, it's been fun to watch the rise and success of DevNet, continues to be strong, obviously in the hub here, and the DevNet zone behind us, packed sessions. >> Mandy: Yes, yes. >> What's the biggest surprise for you guys in terms of things that you didn't expect or some of the success, what's jumped out? >> Yeah, I think, you know, one of the points that I want to make sure we also cover and it has been an added benefit. We were hoping it would happen, we just didn't realize it would happen this soon. We're attracting new companies, new partners, so the specialization won't just be available for our traditional VARs. This is also available for our non resellers and we are finding different companies accessing DevNet resources and learning these skills. So that's been a really great benefit of DevNet overall. >> Definitely, my favorite surprises are when I show up at the community events and I hear from someone I met last year what they went back and did, and the change that they drove in their company. And I think we're seeing those across the board of people who start a grassroots movement, take back some new ideas, really create change, and then they come back and we get to hear about that from them. Those are my favorite surprises. >> And I tell you, we've known for years how important the developer is, but I think the timing on this has been perfect because it is no longer just, Oh, the developer has some tools that they'd liked in the corner. The developer connected to the business and driving things forward. >> Mandy: Exactly. So perfect timing, congratulations on the certification-- >> The other thing that's been great is that Cisco itself, we now have APIs across the whole portfolio and up and down the stack. So that's been a wonderful thing to see come together because it opens up possibilities for all these developers. >> So Cisco is API first company? >> We are building APIs everywhere we can, and the community is taking them and finding creative things to build. >> Well, it's been fun to watch you guys change Cisco, but also impact customers has been great to watch. Par many thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Yeah, thank you. >> theCUBE's live coverage here in Barcelona for Cisco Live 2020 I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, Stu Miniman. Be right back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

>>Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the Cube covering Cisco Live 2020 right to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the Cube's live coverage here at Cisco Live 2020 in Barcelona, Spain. I'm jumpers student of cube coverage. We've got a lot of stuff going on in Cisco Multi cloud and cloud technology. Quantification of Cisco's happening in real time is happening right now. Cloud is here here to stay. We got two great guests unpack what's going on in cloud native and networking and applications as the modern infrastructure and software evolves. We got you. Gene Kim, global product marketing. Compute Storage at Cisco Global marketing manager and Rob Gori, senior director. Cloud Solution Marketing Guys come back. Thanks for coming back. Appreciate it. Great to see you Barcelona guys. So, Bobby, we've had multiple conversations and you see that from the sales force given kind of the the discussion in the motivation Cloud is big. It's here. It's here to stay. It's changing. Cisco AP I first week here in all the products, it's changing everything. What's the story now? What's going on? >>I would say you know the reason why we're so excited about the launch here in Barcelona is because this time it's all about the application of spirits. I mean, the last two years we've being announcing some really exciting stuff in the cloud space where I think about all the announcements with AWS is the Googles the azure, so the world. But this time it really boils down to making sure that is incredibly hyper distributive world. There is an application explosion. Ultimately, we will help for the right operation stools and infrastructure management tools to ensure that the right application experience will be guaranteed for the end customer. And that's incredibly important because at the end, what really really matters is that you will ensure the best possible digital experience to your customer. Otherwise, ultimately nothing's gonna work. And, of course, you're gonna lose your brand and your customers. >>One of the main stories that we're covering is the transformation of the industry. Also, Cisco and one of the highlights to me was the opening keynote. You had APP dynamics first, not networking. Normally it's like what's in the hood? Routers and the gear. No, it was about the applications. This is the story we're seeing. It's kind of a quiet unveiling. Its not get a launch, but it's evolving very quickly. Can you share what's going on behind this? All this? >>Absolutely. It's exactly along the lines of what I was saying a second ago, in the end that the reason why we're driving the announcement, if you want from the application experience side of the House, is because with Appdynamics, we already have very, very powerful application performance management, which it's evolving extremely rapidly. First of all, Appdynamics can correlate not just the application for four months to some technology, maybe eyes, but through actual business KP eyes. So app dynamics can give you, for instance, serial time visibility off, say, a marketing funnel conversion rates transactions that you're having in your in your business operation. Now we're introducing an incredibly powerful new capability that takes the bar to a whole new level. And that's the Appdynamics experience. Journey maps. What are those? It's actually the ability off, focusing not so much on front ends and back ends and the business performances, but really focusing on what the user is seen in front of his or her screen. And so what really matters is capturing the journey that given user of your application is being and understanding whether the experience is the one that you want to deliver or you have, like, a sudden drop off somewhere. And you know why this is important because in the end we've been talking about is the problem of the application, performance issues or performance. It could be a badly designed page. How do you know? And so this is a very precious information they were giving to application developers know, just through the idea. Ops, guys, that is incredibly gracious. >>Okay, you want to get this in. So you just brought up that journey. So that's part of the news. Just break down real quick. One minute what the news is. >>Yeah, so we have three components. The 1st 1 as you as you correctly pointed out, is really the introduction of the application. The journey maps, right. The experience journey maps. That's very, very important. The second he's way are actually integrating Appdynamics with the inter site. Actually, inter site the optimization manager, the workload optimization, workload, optimizer. And so because there is exchange of data between the two now, you are in a position to immediately understand whether you have an application problem. We have a worker problem for structure problem, which is after me, where you really need to do as quickly as you can. And thirdly, way have introduced a new version of our hyper flex platform, which is hyper converge flagship platform for Cisco with a fully containerized version, the tax free if you want as well, that is a great platform for containerized applications. >>So you do and what I've been talking to customers last few years. When they go through their transformational journey, there's the modernization they need to do. The pattern I've seen most successful is first, modernize the platform often HD I is, you know, an option for that. It really simplifies the environment, reduces the silos on, has more of that operational model that looks closer to what the cloud experience is. And then, if I've got a good platform, then I can modernize the applications on top of it. But often those two have been a little bit disconnected. It feels like the announcements now that they are coming together. What are you seeing? What're you hearing? How your solutions at solving this issue >>exactly. I mean, as we've been talking to our customers, a lot of them are going through a different application. Modernizations and kubernetes and containers is extremely important to them. And to build a container cloud on Prem is extremely one of their needs. And so there's three distinctive requirements that they've kind of talk to us about. A lot of it has to be ableto it's got to be very simple, very turnkey, fully integrated, ready to turn on the other. One is something that's very agile, right? Very Dev Ops friendly and the third being a very economic container cloud on prim. So as you mentioned, High Flex Application Platform takes our hyper converge system and build on top of it a integrated kubernetes platform to deliver a container as a service type capability. And it provides a full stack, fully supported element platform for our customers, and one of the best great aspects of it is it's all managed from inter site, from the physical infrastructure to the hyper converge layer to all the way to the container management. So it's very exciting to have that full stack management and inter site as well. >>It's great to see you, John and I have been following this kubernetes wave since the early early days. Fabio mentioned integrations with the Amazons and Googles of the world because, you know, a few years ago you talk to customers and they're like, Oh, well, I'm just going to build my own community. Nobody ever said that is easy now. Just delivering as a service seems to be the way most people want it. So if I'm doing it on Amazon or Google, they've got their manage service that I could do that or that there partners we're working with. So explain what you're doing to make it simpler in the data center environment. Because on Prem absolutely is a piece of that hybrid equation that customers need. >>Yes, so, essentially from the customer experience perspective, as I mentioned, very fairly turnkey right from the hyper flex application platform we're taking are happening for software were integrating a application virtualization layer on top of it analytics k VM based. And then on top of that, we're integrating the kubernetes stack on top of as well. And so, in essence, right? It's a fully curated kubernetes stack that has all the different elements from the networking from the storage elements and provide that in a very turnkey way. And as I mentioned, the inter site management is really providing that simplicity that customers need for that management. >>Fabio This is the previous announcements you've made with the public clouds. This just ties into those hybrid environments. That's exactly a few years ago. People like, Oh, is there going to be a distribution that wins in kubernetes? We don't think that's the answer, but still, I can't just move between kubernetes. You know seamlessly yet. But this is moving toward that >>direct. Absolutely. A lot of customers want to have a very simple implementation. At the same time, they weren't off course a multi cloud approach and I really care about marking the difference between multi cloud hybrid Cloud has been a lot of confusion. But if you think about a multi cloud is re routed into the business need or harnessing innovation from wherever it comes from, you know the different clouds capability from things, and you know what they do today. Tomorrow it could even change, so people want optionality, so they want a very simple implementation that's integrated with public cloud providers that simplifies their life in terms of networking, security and application of workload management. And we've been executing towards that goal so fundamentally simplify the operations of these pretty complex kind of hybrid apartments. >>And once you nail that operations on hybrid, that's where multi cloud comes in. That's really just a connection point. >>Absolutely, you know, you might know is an issue. So in order to fulfill your business, your line of business needs you. Then you have a hybrid problem, and you want to really kind of have a consistent production grade environment between things on Prem that you own and control versus things that you use and you want to control better. Now, of course, they're different school thoughts. But most of the customers who are speaking with really want to expand their governance and technology model right to the cloud, as opposed to absorb in different ways of doing things from each and every time. >>I want to unpack a little bit of what you said earlier about the knowing where the problem is, because a lot of times it's a point, the finger at the other first, it's the application promising the problem, so I want to get into that. But first I want to understand the hyper flex application platform. Eugene, if you could just share the main problem that you guys solve, what are some of the pain points that customers had? What problem does the AP solved? >>Yeah, as I mentioned, it's really the platform for our customers to modernize the applications on right, and it addresses those things that they're looking for as far as the economics right, really? The ability to provide a full stack container experience without having to, you know, but bringing any third party hyper visor licenses as well support costs that's well integrated. There you have your integrated, hyper converged storage capability. You have the cloud based management, and that's really developing. You provide that developer dev ops simplicity from that agility that they're looking for internally as well as for their production environments. And then the other aspect is the simplicity to manage all this right and the entire life cycle management >>as well. So it's the operational side of the hole in under the covers hobby on the application side where the problem is because this is where I'm a bit skeptical, Normal rightfully so. But I can see a problem where it's like Whose fault is it? Applications, problem or the network? I mean, it runs on where? Sears Workloads, Banking app. It's having trouble. How do you know where the problem is? And how do you solve that problem with what's going on for that specific issue? >>Absolutely. And you know, the name of the game here is breaking down this operational side, right? And I love what are appdynamics VP? GM Any? Whitaker said. You know, he has this terminology. Beast develops, which it may sound like an interesting acrobatics, but it's absolutely too. The business has to be part of this operational kind of innovation because, as you said, you know, developer just drops their containers and their code to the I T. Ops team, but you don't really know whether the problem a certain point is going to be in the code or in the application is actually deployed. Or maybe a server that doesn't have enough CPU. So in the end, it boils down to one very important thing. You have to have visibility, insights and take action at every layer of the stack. Instrumentation. Absolutely. There are players that only do it in their software overlay domain. The problem is, very often these kind of players assume they're underneath. Things are fine, and very often they're not. So in the end, this visibility inside in action is the loop that everybody's going after these days, too, Really get to the next. If you want a generational operation, where you gotta have a constant feedback loop and making it more faster and faster because in the end you can only win in the marketplace, right? So your I T ops, if you're faster than your competitors, >>will still still questioning the GM of APP Dynamics. Run, observe, ability. And he's like, No, it's not a feature, it's everywhere. So he's comment was observe. Abilities don't really talk about it because it's a big in. You agree with that? >>Absolutely. It has to be at every layer of the stack, and only if you have visibility inside an action through the entire stock, from the software all the way to the infrastructure level that you can solve the problems. Otherwise, the finger pointing quote unquote will continue, and you will not be able to gain the speed you need. >>Okay, so The question on my mind I want to get both of you guys could weigh in on this is that if you look at Cisco as a company, you got a lot going on. You guys huge customer base core routers to know applications. There's a lot going on a lot of a lot of complexity. You got I o. T. Security members talking about that. You got the WebEx rooms totally popular. It's got a lot of glam, too, and having the WebEx kind of, I guess, what virtual presence was telepresence kind of model. And then you get cloud. Is there a mind share within the company around how cloud is baked into everything? Because you can't do I ot edge without having some sort of cloud operational things. Stuff we're talking about is not just a division. It's kind of it's kind of threads everywhere across Cisco. What's the what's the mind share right now within the Cisco teams and also customers around cloud ification? >>Well, I would say it's it's a couple of dimensions. The 1st 1 is the cloud is one of the critical domains of this multi domain architecture. That, of course, is the cornerstone of Cisco's. The knowledge is strategy, right? If you think about it, it's all about connecting users to applications wherever they are and not just the users to the applications themselves. Like if you look at the latest US from I. D. C. 58% of workloads is heading to a public cloud, and the edge is like the data center is exploding many different directions. So you have this highly distributed kind of fabric. Guess what sits in between. All these applications and micro services is a secure network, and that's exactly what we're executing upon. Now that's the first kind of consideration. The second is if you look at the other civil line. Most of the Cisco technology innovation is also going a direction of absorbing cloud as a simplified way of managing all the components or the infrastructure. You look at the hyper flex. AP is actually managed by Inter site, which is a SAS kind of component. This journey started long time ago with Cisco Iraqi on then, of course, we have sass properties like WebEx. Everything else absolutely migrate borders. >>We've been reporting Eugene that five years ago we saw the movement where AP, eyes were starting to come in when you go back five years ago. Not a lot of the gear and stuff that Cisco had AP eyes. Now you got AP eyes building in all the new products that you see the software shift with you intent based networking to APP dynamics. It's interesting. It's you're seeing kind of the agile mindset. This is something you and I talk all the time. But agile now is the new model. Is it ready for customers? I mean, the normal enterprises still have the infrastructure and separated, and they're like, Okay, how do I bring it together? What do you guys see in the customer base? What's going on with that early adopters, Heavy duty hardcore pioneers out there. But you know, the general mainstream enterprise. Are they there yet? Have they had that moment of awakening? >>Yeah, I mean, I think they they are there because fundamentally, it's all about ensuring that application experience. And you could only ensure the application experience right by having your application teams and infrastructure teams work together. And that's what's exciting. You mentioned Ap eyes and what we've done. They were with APP dynamics, integrating with inner sight workload. Optimizer as you mentioned all the visibility inside in action and what APP Dynamics has provides. Provide that business and end user application performance experience. Visibility Inter site. It's giving you visibility on the underlining workload, and the resource is whether it's on prim in your private data center environment or in a different type of cloud providers. So you get that full stack visibility right from the application all the way down to the bottom and then inter site local optimizer is then also optimizing the resource is to proactively ensure that application experience. So before you know, if we talk about someone at a check out and they're about there's of abandonment because the function is not working, we're able to proactively prevent that and take a look at all that. So, you know, in the end, I think it's all about ensuring that application experience and what we're providing with APP Dynamics is for the application team is kind of that horizontal visibility of how that application performing and at the same time, if there's an issue, the infrastructure team could see exactly within the workload topology, where the issue is and entertain safely, whether it be manual intervention or even automatically our ops capability. Go ahead and provide that action so the action could be, you know, scaling out the VM that's on Prem or looking at new, different type of easy to template in the cloud. That's a very exciting about this. It's really the application experience is now driving and optimize the infrastructure in real >>time. And let me flip your question like, Do you even have a choice, John, when you think about in the next two years 50% more applications? If you're a large enterprise here, 5 to 7000 apps you have another 2 3000 applications just coming into into the and then 50% of the existing ones that are going to be re factor lifted and shifted the replace or retired by SAS application. It's just like a tsunami that's that's coming on you and oh, by the way, because again the micro services kind of effect the number of dependencies between all these applications is growing incredibly rapidly, Like last year, we were eight average interdependencies for applications. Now we have 20 so in Beijing imaginable happens as you are literally flooded with this can really you have to ensure that your application infrastructure fundamentally will get tied up as quickly as you can >>see. You and I have been talking for at least five years now, if not longer. Networking has been the key kind of last change over clarification. I would agree with you guys. I think last question because I wanted to get your perspective. But think about it. It's 13 years since the iPhone so mobile has shown people that mobile app can change business. But now you get the pressure of the networks. Bringing that pressure on the network or the pressure of the network to be better than programmable is the rise of video and data. I mean, you got mobile check now you got it. Video. I mean more people doing video now than ever before. Videos of consumer. Well, it's streaming. You got data? These two things absolutely forced customers to deal with it. >>But what really tipped the balance? John is actually the SAS effect is the cloud effect because, as you know, it's an I t. So the inflection points. Nothing gets a linear right. So once you reach a certain critical mass of cloud apps, and we're absolutely they're already all of a sudden your traffic pattern on your network changes dramatically. So why in the world are you continuing? Kind of, you know, concentrating all of your traffic in your data center and then going to the Internet. You have to absolutely open the floodgates at the branch level and as close to the users this possible, and that it implies a radical change of the >>way I would even add to that. And I think you guys are right on where you guys are going. It may be hard to kind of tease out with all the complexity with Cisco, but in the keynote, the business model shifts come from SAS. So you got all this technical stuff going on. You have the sass ification, or cloud changes the business models so new entrants can come in and existing players get better. So I think that whole business model conversation never was discussed at Cisco Live before in depth. Okay, run your business, connect your hubs campus move packets around Dallas applications in business model, >>but also the fact that there is increasing number off software capabilities and so fundamental. You want to simplify the life of your customers through subscription models that help the customer buying a using what they really need the right at any given point in time, all the way to having enterprise agreements. >>I also think that's about delivering these application experiences free for small, different experience. That's really what's differentiating you from your competitors, right? And so that's a different type of >>shift as well. Well, you guys have got a good That's a good angle on this cloud. I love it. I got to ask the question. What can we expect next from Cisco? More progression along cloud ification? What's next? >>Well, I would say we've been incredibly consistent, I believe in the last few years in executing on our cloud strategy, which again is sent around helping customers really gluing this mix, set off data centers and clouds to make it work as one right as much as possible. And so what we really deliver is networking security and application performance management, and we're integrating this more and more on the two sides of the equation, right? The data center side and the public cloud side and more more integrated in between all of these layers again, to fundamentally give you this operational capability to get faster and faster. We'll continue doing so and >>we'll get you set up before we came on camera that you were talking to sales teams. What are they? What's the vibe with sales team? They get excited by this. What's the >>oh yeah, feedback. And absolutely, from the inter site work optimizer and the app Dynamics side. It's very exciting for them. Switch the conversation they're having with their customers, really from that application experience and proactively ensuring it. And on the hyper flex application platform side, this is extreme exciting with providing a container cloud to our customers. And you know what's coming down is more and more capabilities for our customers to modernize the applications on hyper >>flex. You guys are riding a pretty big waves here at Cisco in a cloud way to get the i o t. Security wave. Great stuff. Thanks for coming in. Thanks for sharing the insights. Appreciate it. >>Thank you for having >>coverage here in Barcelona. I'm John. First, Minutemen back with more coverage. Fourth day of four days of cube coverage. Be right back after this short break. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back over 17,000 in attendance here for Cisco live 2020 in Barcelona ops 2 min and my co-host is Dave Volante and to help us to dig in to of course one of the most important topic of the day of course that security we're thrilled to have back a distinguished engineer Francisco one of our cube alumni TK kia nini TK thanks so much for joining us ideal man good good all right so TK it's 2020 it's a new decade we know the bad actors are still out there they're there the the question always is you know it used to be you know how do you keep ahead of them then I've here Dave say many times well you know it's not you know when it's it's not if it's when you know you probably already have been ok you know compromise before so it gives latest so you know what you're seeing out there what you're talking to customers about in this important space yeah it's it's kind of an innovation spiral you know we we innovate we make it harder for them and then they innovate they make it harder for us right and round and round we go that's been going on for for many years I think I think the most significant changes that have happened recently have to deal with not essentially their objectives but how they go about their objectives and Defenders topologies have changed greatly instead of just your standard Enterprise you now have you know hybrid multi cloud and all these new technologies so while while all that innovation happens you know they get a little clever and they find weaknesses and round and round we go so we talked a lot about the sort of changing profile of the the threat actors gone from hacktivists to criminals now is a huge business and nation-states even what's that profile looked like today and how has that changed over the last decade or so you know that's pretty much stayed the same you know bad guys are bad guys at some point in time you know just how how they go about their business their techniques they're having to like I said innovate around you know we make it harder for them they you know on Monday we're safe on Tuesday we're not you know and then on Wednesday it switches again so so it talked about kind of this multi-cloud environment when we talked to customers it's like well I want the developer to be able to build their application and not really have to think too much underneath it that that has to have some unique challenges we know security we knew long ago well I just go to the cloud it doesn't mean they take care of it some things are there some things they're gonna remind you now you need to make sure you set certain things otherwise you could be there but how do we make sure that Security's baked in everywhere and is up as a practice that everybody's doing well I mean again some of the practices hold true no matter what the environment I think the big thing was cognitive is in back in the day when when you looked at an old legacy data center you were apart sort of administrator in your part detective most people don't even know what's running on there that's not true in cloud native environments some some llamó file some some declaration it's it's just exactly what production should look like right and then the machines instantiate production so you're doing things that machine scale forces the human scale people to be explicit and and for me I mean that's that's a breath of fresh air because once you're explicit then you take the mystery out of what you're protecting how about in terms of how you detect threats right phishing for credentials has become a huge deal but not just you know kicking down the door or smashing a window yeah using your your own credentials to get inside of your network so how is that affected the way in which you detect yeah it's it's a big deal you know a lot of a lot of technology has a dual use and what I mean by that is network cryptology you know that that whole crypto on the network has made us safer for us to compute over unsecure networks and unfortunately it works just as well for the bad guys so you know all of their malicious activity is now private to so it you know for us we just have to invent new ways of detecting direct inspection for instance I think is a thing of the past I mean we just can't depend on it anymore we have to have tools of inference and not only that but it's it's gave rise in a lot of innovation on behavioral science and as you say you know it's it's not that the attacker is breaking into your network anymore they're logging in okay what do you do then right Alice Alice's account it's not gonna set off the triggers so you have to say you know when did Alice start to behave differently you know she's working in accounting why is she playing around with the source code repository that's that's a different thing right yeah automation is such a big trend you know how do we make sure that automation doesn't leave us more vulnerable that's rarity because we need to be able automate we've gone beyond human scale for most of these configurations that's exactly right and and how do how do we I always say just with security automation in particular just because you can automate something doesn't mean you should and and you really have to go back and have practices you know you could argue that that this thing is just a you know machine scale automation you could do math on a legal pad or you can use a computer to do it right what so apply that to production if you mechanized something like order entry or whatever you're you're you're automating part of your business use threat modeling you use the standard threat modeling like you would your code the network is code now right and storage is code and everything is code so you know just automate your testing do your threat modeling do all that stuff please do not automate for your attacker matrix is here I want to go back to the Alice problem because you're talking about before you have to use inference so Alice's is in the network and you're observing her moves every day and then okay something anomalous occurs maybe she's doing something that normally she wouldn't do so you've got to have her profile in her actions sort of observed documented stored the data has got to be there and at the same time you want to make sure it's always that balance of putting handcuffs on people and you know versus allowing them to you know do their job and be productive at the same time as well you don't want to let the bad guys know that you know that alice is doing something that she didn't be doing is actually not Alice so all that complexity how are you dealing with it and what's the data model look like doing it machines help let's say that machines can help us you know you and I we have only so many sense organs and the cognitive brain can only store so many so much state machines really help us extend that and so you know looking at not three dimensions of change but 7000 dimensions have changed right something in the machine is going to say there's an outlier here that's interesting and you can get another machine to say that's that's interesting maybe I should focus on that you build these analytical pipelines so that at the end of it you know they may argue with each other all the way to the end but at the end you have a very high fidelity indicator that might be at the protocol level it might be at the behavioral level it might be seven days back or thirty days back all these temporal and spatial dimensions it's really cheap to do it with a machine yeah and if we could stay on that for a second so it I've tried to understand I know that's a high level example but is it best practice to have the Machine take action or is it is it an augmentation and I know it depends on the use case but but how is that sort of playing out again you have to do all of this safely okay a lot of things that machines do don't return back to human scale stuff that returns back to human scale that humans understand that is as useful so for instance if machines you know find out all these types of in assertions even in medical you know right now if if you've got so much telemetry going into the medical field say the machine tells you you have three weeks to live I mean you better explain what the heck you know how you came about that assertion it's the same with security you know if I'm gonna say look we're gonna quarantine your machine or we're gonna reimage this machine it's not I'm not like picking movies for you or the next song you might listen to this is high stakes and so when you do things like that your analytics needs to have what it's called entailment you have to explain what it is how you got to that assertion that's become incredibly important in how we measure our effectiveness in in doing analytics that's interesting because because you're using a lot of machine intelligence to do this and a lot of AI is blackbox you're saying you cannot endure that blackbox problem in security yeah that black box is is is very dangerous you know I you know personally I feel that you know things that should be open sourced this type of technology it's so advanced that the developer needs to understand that the tester needs to understand that certainly the customer needs to understand it you need to publish papers and be very very transparent with this domain because if it is in fact you know black box and it's given the authority to automate something like you know shut down the power or do things like that that's when things really start to get dangerous so good TK what wonder you know give us the latest on stealthWatch there you know Cisco's positioning when it when it comes to everything we've been talking about here you know stealthWatch again is it's been in market for quite some time it's actually been in market since 2001 and when I when I look back and see how much has changed you know how we've had to keep up with the market and again it's not just the algorithms rewrite for detection it's the environments have changed right but when did when did multi-cloud happen so so operating again cusp it's not that stealthWatch wants to go their customers are going there and they want the stealthWatch function across their digital business and so you know we've had to make advancements on the changing topology we've had to make advancements because of things like dark data you know the the network's opaque now right we have to have a lot of inference so we've just you know kept up and stayed ahead of it you know we've been spending a lot of time talking to developer communities and there's a lot of open-source tooling out there that that's helping enable developers specifically in security space you were talking about open-source earlier how does what you've been doing the stealthWatch intersect with that yeah that's always interesting too because there's been sort of a shift in in let's call them the cool kids right the cool kids um they want everything is code right so it's not about what's on glass or you know a single pane of glass anymore it's it's what stealth watches code right what's your router as code look at definitely definite is basically Cisco as code and it's beautiful because that is infrastructure as code I mean that is the future and so all the products not just stealthWatch have beautiful api's and that's that's really exciting I've been saying for a while now it's do you I think you agree is that that is a big differentiator for Cisco I think you you're one of the few if not the only large established player and the enterprise that has figured out that sort of infrastructure is code play others have tried and are sort of getting there but start-stop you use a term that really cool is like living off the land you know bear bear grylls like the guy who lives off the land so and and and threat actors are doing that now they're using your own installed software and tooling to hack you and steal from you how were you dealing with that problem yeah it's a tough one and like I said you know much respect the the adversary is talented and they're patient they're well funded okay that's that's where it starts and so you know why why bring why bring an interpreter to a host when there's already one there right why right all this complicated software distribution when I can just use yours and so that's that's where the play the game starts and and the most advanced threats aren't leaving footprints because the footprints are already there you know they'll get on a machine and behaviorally they'll check the cache to see what's hot and what's hot in the cache means that behaviorally it's a path they can go they're not cutting a new trail most of the time right so living off the land is not only the tools that they're using the automation your automation they're using against you but it's also behavioral and so that that makes it you know it makes it harder it's it impossible no can we make it harder for them yes so yeah I'm having fun and I've been doing this for over twenty five years every week it's something new well it's a hard problem you're attacking and you know Robert Herjavec who came of the cube sort of opened my eyes and you think about what are we securing we're securing everything I mean a critical infrastructure were essentially assured securing the entire global economy and he said something that really struck me since there's an 86 trillion dollar economy we spend point zero one four percent on securing that economy and that's nothing now of course he's an entrepreneur and he's pimping for his his business but it's true we are barely scratching the surface of this problem yeah and it's changing I mean it's changing it could it be better yes it is changing his board awareness well you know 20 years ago they then write me to a dinner party they you know what does your husband do I'd say you know cyber security or something they'd roll their eyes and change the subject now they asked me the same question so oh you know my computer's running really slow right these are not this is everyone I'm worried about a life hack yeah how do I protect myself or what about these company us the bank I mean that's guys a dinner table company every party so now now you know I just make something up I don't do cybersecurity I just I you know a tort or a jipner's you've been in this business forever I can't remember have I ever asked you the superhero question what is that your favorite superhero that's a tough one there's all the security guys I know they like always dreamed about saving the world [Laughter] you're my superhero man I love what you do I think you're a great asset for Cisco and Cisco's customers really Thanks TK give us a final word if people want to you know find out more about about what Cisco's doing read more what you're working on what's some of the best resources I have to go to do you know just drop by the web pages I mean everything's published out that like I said even even for the super nerdy you know we publish all our our lars security analytics papers I think we're over 50 papers published in the last 12 years TK thank you so much always a pleasure to catch it all right yeah I think they've traveled thank you so much for de Villante um Stu Mittleman John Fourier is also in the house we will be back with lots more coverage here from Cisco live 20/20 in Barcelona thanks for watching the keys

>>live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the Cube covering Cisco Live 2020 right to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners >>back. This is the Cube's coverage >>of Cisco Live 2020 here in Barcelona, doing about three and 1/2 days of wall to wall coverage here. Stew Minimum. My co host for this segment is Dave Volante. John Furrier is also here, scaring the floor and really happy to welcome to the program. Two first time guests. I believe so. Uh, Derek is the product manager of product marketing for Cloud Computing with Cisco, and sitting to his left is Matt Ferguson, who's director of product development, also with the Cisco Cloud Group. David here from Boston. Matt is also from the Boston area, and customers is coming over from London. So thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. All right, so obviously, cloud computing something we've been talking about many years. We've really found fascinating relationship. Cisco's had, with its customers a zealous through the partner ecosystem, had many good discussions about some of the announcements this week. Maybe start a little bit, you know, Cisco's software journey and positioning in the cloud space right now. >>So it's a really interesting dynamic when we started transitioning to multi cloud and we actually deal with Cloud and Compute coming together and we've had whether you're looking at three infrastructure ops organization or whether you're looking at the APS up operations or whether you're looking at, you know, your DEV environment, your security operations. Each organization has to deal with their angle, which they view, you know, multi cloud. Or they view how they actually operate within those the cloud computing context. And so whether you're on the infrastructure side, you're looking at compute. You're looking at storage. You're looking at resources. If you're on an app operator, you're looking at performance. You're looking at visibility assurance. If you are in the security operations you're looking at, maybe governance. You're looking at policy, and then when you're a developer, you really sort of thinking about see I CD. You're talking about agility, and there's very few organizations like Cisco that actually is looking at from a product perspective. All those various angles >>of multi cloud >> is definitely a lot of pieces. Maybe up level it for us a little bit. There's so many pieces way talk for so long. You know you don't talk to any company that doesn't have a cloud. Strategy doesn't mean that it's not going to change over time. And it means every company's got a known positioning. But talk about the relationship Cisco has with its customers and really the advisory condition that you want to have with >>its actually a very relevant question. To what? To what Matt is talking about, because Wei talked a lot about multi cloud as a trend and hybrid clouds and this kind of relationship between the traditional view of looking at computing data centers and then expanding to different clouds. You know, public cloud providers have now amazing platform capabilities. And if you think about it, the it goes back to what Matt said about I t ops and development kind of efforts. Why is this happening? Really, there's There's the study that we did with with an analyst, and there was an amazing a shocking stats around how within the next three years, organizations will have to support 50% more applications than they do now. And we have been trying to test this, that our events that made customer meetings etcetera, that is a lot of a lot of change for organizations. So if you think about why are they use, why do they need to basically let go and expand to those clouds? Is because they want to service. I T ops teams want to servers with capabilities, their developers faster, right? And this is where you have within the I T ops kind of theme organization. You have the security kind of frame through the compute frame, the networking where, you know Cisco has a traditional footprint. How do you blend all this? How do you bring all this together in a linear way to support individual unique application modernization efforts? I think that's what we're hearing from customers in terms of the feedback. And this is what influences our >>strategy to converts the different business units. And it's an area engineering effort, right? >>I want to poke at that a little bit. I mean, a couple years ago, I have to admit I was kind of a multi cloud skeptic. I always said that I thought it was more of a symptom that actually strategy a symptom of shadow I t and different workloads and so forth, but now kind of buying in because I think I t in particular has been brought in to clean up the crime scene. I often say so I think it is becoming a strategy. So if you could help us understand what you're hearing from customers in terms of their strategy towards multi cloud and how Cisco it was mapping into that, >>yeah, so So when we talk to customers, it comes back to the angle at which they're approaching the problem. And, like you said, that shadow I t. Has been probably around for longer than anybody want, cares to admit, because people want to move faster. Organizations want to get their product out to market sooner. And so what? What really is we're having conversations now about, you know, how do I get the visibility? How do I get you know, the policies in the governance so that I can actually understand either how much I'm spending in the cloud or whether I'm getting the actual performance that I'm looking for, that I need that connectivity. So I get the bandwidth, and so these are the kinds of conversations that we have with customers is going. I realized that this is going on now I actually have to Now put some governance and controls around. That is their products is their solutions, is there? You know, they're looking to Cisco to help them through this journey because it is a journey. Because as much as we talk about cloud and you know, companies that were born in the cloud cloud native there is a tremendous number of I see organizations that are just starting that journey that are just entering into this phase where they have to solve these problems. >>Yeah, I agree. And they're starting the journey with a deliberate strategy as opposed to Okay, we got this thing. But if you think about the competitive landscape, it's kind of interesting. And I want to try to understand where Cisco fits because again, you initially had companies that didn't know in a public cloud sort of pushing multi cloud. You say? Well, I guess they have to do that. But now you see, and those come out with Google, you see Microsoft leaning in way. Think eventually aws is gonna lead in. And then you say I'm kind of interested in working with some of these cloud agnostic not trying to force Now, now Cisco. A few years ago, you didn't really think about Cisco as a player. Now this goes right in the middle. I have said often that Cisco's in a great position John Furrier as well to connect businesses and from a source of networking strength, making a strong argument that we have the most cost effective, most secure, highest performance networks to connect clouds. That seems to be a pretty fundamental strength of yours. And does that essentially summarize your strategy? And And how does that map into the actions that you're taking in terms of products and services that you're bringing to market? >>I would say that I can I can I can take that. Yeah, for sure. It's chewy question for hours. So I was thinking about satellite you mentioned before. Like Okay, that's, you know, the world has turned around completely way seem to talk about Target satellite Is something bad happening? And now, suddenly we completely forgot about it, like let let free, free up the developers and let them do whatever they want. And basically that is what I think is happening out there in the market. So all of the solutions you mentioned in the go to market approaches and the architectures that the public cloud providers at least our offering out there. Certainly the Big Three have differences have their strengths on. And I think those things are closer to the developer environment. Basically, you know, if you're looking into something like AI ml, there's one provider that you go with. If you're looking for a mobile development framework, you're gonna go somewhere else. If you're looking for a D, are you gonna go somewhere else? Maybe not a big cloud, but your service provider. But you've been dealing with all this all this time, so you know that they have their accreditation that you're looking for. So where does Cisco come in? You know, we're not a public cloud provider way offer products as a service from our data centers and our partners data centers. But at the the way that the industry sees a cloud provider a public cloud like AWS Azure, Google, Oracle, IBM, etcetera, we're not that we don't do that. Our mission is to enable organizations with software hardware products SAS products to be able to facilitate their connectivity, security, visibility, observe ability, and in doing business and in leveraging the best benefits from those clubs. So way kind of way kind of moved to a point where we flip around the question, and the first question is, Who is your club provider? What? How many? Tell us the clouds you work with, and we can give you the modular pieces you can put we can put together for you. So these, so that you can make the best out of >>your club. Being able to do that across clouds in an environment that is consistent with policies that are consistent, that represent the edicts of your organization, no matter where your data lives, that's sort of the vision and the way >>this is translated into products into Cisco's products. You naturally think about Cisco as the connectivity provider networking. That's that's really sort of our, you know, go to in what we're also when we have a significant computing portfolio as well. So connectivity is not only the connectivity of the actual wire between geography is point A to point B. In the natural routing and switching world, there's connectivity between applications between compute and so this week. You know, the announcements were significant in that space when you talk about the compute and the cloud coming together on a single platform, that gives you not only the ability to look at your applications from an experience journey map so you can actually know where problems might occur in the application domain. You can actually, then go that next level down into the infrastructure level and you can say, Okay, maybe I'm running out of some sort of resource, whether it's compute resource, whether it's memory, whether it's on your private cloud that you have enabled on Prem, or whether it's in the public cloud, that you have that application residing and then, quite candidly, you have the actual hardware itself. So inter site. It has an ability to control that entire stack so you can have that visibility all the way down to the hardware layer. >>I'm glad you brought up some of the applications. I wonder if we could stay there for a moment. Talk about some of the changing patterns for customers. A lot of talk in the industry about cloud native often gets conflated with micro services, container ization and lots of the individual pieces there. But when one of Our favorite things have been talking about this week is software that really sits at the application layer and how that connects down through some of the infrastructure pieces. So help us understand what you're hearing from customers and how you're helping them through this transition to cost. You're saying, Absolutely, there's going to be lots of new applications, more applications and they still have the old stuff that they need to continue to manage because we know in I t nothing ever goes away. Yeah, >>that's that's definitely I was I was thinking, you know, there's there's a vacuum at the moment on and there's things that Cisco is doing from from a technology perspective to fill that gap between application. What you see when it comes to monitoring, making sure your services are observable. And how does that fit within the infrastructure stack, You know, everything upwards of the network layer. Basically, that is changing dramatically. Some of the things that matter touched upon with regards to, you know, being able to connect the networking, the security and the infrastructure of the compute infrastructure that the developers basically are deploying on top. So there's a lot of the desert out of things on continue ization. There's a lot of, in fact, it's one part of the off the shelf inter site of the stack that you mentioned and one of the big announcements. Uh huh. You know that there's a lot of discussion in the industry around. Okay, how does that abstract further the conversation on networking, for example? Because that now what we're seeing is that you have a huge monoliths enterprise applications that are being carved down into micro services. Okay, they know there's a big misunderstanding around what is cloud native? Is it related to containers? Different kind of things, right? But containers are naturally the infrastructure defacto currency for developers to deploy because of many, many benefits. But then what happens between the kubernetes layer, which seems to be the standard and the application? Who's going to be managing services talking to each other that are multiplying? You know, things like service mesh, network service mess? How is the never evolving to be able to create this immutable infrastructure for developers to deploy applications? So there's so many things happening at the same time where Cisco has actually a lot of taking a lot of the front seat. Leading that conversation >>is where it gets really interesting. Sort of hard to squint through because you mentioned kubernetes is the de facto standard, but it's a defacto standard that's open everybody's playing with. But historically, this industry has been defined by a leader comes out with a de facto standard kubernetes, not a company. It's an open standard, so but there's so many other components than containers. And so history would suggest that there's going to be another defacto standard or multiple standards that emerge. And your point earlier. You got to have the full stack. You can't just do networking. You can't just do certain if you so you guys are attacking that whole pie. So how do you think this thing will evolve? I mean, you guys obviously intend to put out a stat cast a wide net as possible, captured not only your existing install basement attract, attract others on you're going aggressively at it as a czar. Others How do you see it shaking out? You see you know, four or five pockets, you see one leader emerging. I mean, customers would love all you guys to get together and come up with standards. That's not going to happen. So where it's jump ball right now? >>Well, yeah. You think about, you know, to your point regarding kubernetes is not a company, right? It is. It is a community driven. I mean, it was open source by a large company, but it's community driven now, and that's the pace at which open source is sort of evolving. There is so much coming at I t organizations from a new paradigm, a new software, something that's, you know, the new the shiny object that sort of everybody sort of has to jump onto and sort of say, that is the way we're gonna function. So I t organizations have to struggle with this influx of just every coming at them and every angle. And I think what starting toe happen is the management and the you know that Stack who controls that or who is helping i t organizations to manage it for them. So really, what we're trying to say is there's elements that have to put together that have to function, and kubernetes is just one example Docker, the operating system that associated with it that runs all that stuff then you have the application that goes right sides on top of it. So now what we have to have is things like what we just announced this week. Hx AP the application platform for a check so you have the Compute cluster, but then you have the stack on top of that that's managed by an organization that's looking at the security that's looking at the the actual making opinions about what should go in the stack and managing that for you. So you don't have to deal with that because you just focus on the application development. Yeah, >>I mean, Cisco's in a strong position to do. There's no question about it. To me, it comes down to execution. If you guys execute and deliver on the products and services that you say, you know, you announced, for instance, this weekend previously, and you continue on a road map, you're gonna get a fair share of this market place. I think there's no question >>so last topic before we let you go is love your viewpoint on customers. What's separating kind of leaders from you know, the followers in this space, you know, there's so much data out there. And I'm a big fan of the State of Dev Ops report Help separate, You know, some not be not. Here's the technology or the piece, but the organizational and, you know, dynamics that you should do. So it sounds like you like that report also, love. What do you hear from customers? How do you help guide them towards becoming leaders in the cloud space? >>Yeah, The State of Dev Ops report was fascinating. I mean, they've been doing that for a number of years now. Yeah, exactly. And really what? It's sort of highlighting is two main factors that I think that are in this revolution or the third paradigm shift. Our journey we're going through, there's the technology side for sure, and so that's getting more complex. You have micro services, you have application explosion. You have a lot of things that are occurring just in technology that you're trying to keep up. But then it's really about the human aspect of human elements, the people about it. And that's really I think, what separates you know, the elites that are really sort of, you know, just charging forward and ahead because they've been able to sort of break down the silos because really, what you're talking about in cloud Native Dev Ops is how you take the journey of the experience of the service from end end from the development all the way to production. And how do you actually sort of not have organizations that look at their domain their data, set their operations and then have to translate that or have to sort of you have another conversation with another organization that that doesn't look at that, That has no experience of that? So that is what we're talking about, that end and view. >>And in addition to all the things we've been talking about, I think security's a linchpin here. You guys are executing on security. You got a big portfolio and you've seen a lot of M and A and a lot of companies trying to get in, and it's gonna be interesting to see how that plays out. But that's going to be a key because organizations are going to start there from a strategy standpoint, and they build out >>Yeah, absolutely. If you follow Dev ops methodologies, security gets baked in along the way so that you're not having to 100% gone after anything, just give you the final word. >>I was just a follow up with You. Got some other model was saying, There's so many, there's what's happening out there Is this democracy around? Standards with is driven by communities and way love that in fact, Cisco is involved in many open sores community projects. But you asked about customers and just right before you were asking about you know who is gonna be the winner. There's so many use cases. >>Uh huh. >>There's so much depth in Tim's off. You know what customers want to do with on top of kubernetes, you know, take Ai Ml, for example, something that we have way have some, some some offering services on there's cast. A mother wants to ai ml their their container stuck. Their infrastructure will be so much different to someone else, is doing something just hosting. And there's always going to be a SAS provider that is niche servicing some oil and gas company, you know, which means that the company of that industry will go and follow that instead of just going to a public cloud provider that is more agnostic. Does that make sense? Yeah. >>Yeah. There's relationships that exist that are just gonna get blown away. That add value today. And they're not going to just throw him out. Exactly. >>Well, thank you so much for helping us understand the updates where your customers are driving super exciting space. Look forward to keeping an eye on it. Thanks so much. Alright, there's still lots more coming here from Cisco Live 2020 in Barcelona. People are standing watching all the developer events, lots going on the floor and we still have more. So thank you for watching the Cube. Yeah, yeah.

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cubes coverage of Cisco live 2020 here in Barcelona doing about three and a half days of wall-to-wall coverage here I'm Stu minim and my co-host for this segment is Dave Volante John furs also here scouring the floor and really happy to welcome to the program to first-time guests I believe so Ron Daris is the product manager of product marketing for cloud computing with Cisco and sitting to his left is Matt Ferguson who's director of product development also with the Cisco cloud group Dave and I are from Boston Matt is also from the Boston area yes and Costas is coming over from London so thanks so much for joining us thanks IBPS all right so obviously cloud computing something we've been talking about many years we've really found fascinating the relationship Cisco's had with its customers as well as through the partner ecosystem had many good discussions about some of the announcements this week maybe start a little bit you know Cisco's software journey and you know positioning in this cloud space right now yes oh so it's a it's a really interesting dynamic when we start transitioning to multi cloud and we actually deal with cloud and compute coming together and we've had whether you're looking at the infrastructure ops organization or whether you're looking at the apps operations or whether you're looking at you know your dev environment your security operations each organization has to deal with their angle at which they view you know multi cloud or they view how they actually operate within those the cloud computing context and so whether you're on the infrastructure side you're looking at compute you're looking at storage you're looking at resources if you're an app operator you're looking at performance you're looking at visibility assurance if you are in the security operations you're looking at maybe governance you're looking at policy and then when you're a developer you really sort of thinking about CI CD you're talking about agility and there's very few organizations like Cisco that actually is looking at from a product perspective all those various angles of multi-cloud yeah definitely a lot of piece of cost us maybe up level it for us a little bit there's there's so many pieces you know we talked for so long you know you don't talk to any company that doesn't have a cloud strategy doesn't mean that it's not going to change over time and it means every company's got at home positioning but talk about the relationship cisco has with its customer and really the advisory position that you want to have with them it's actually a very relevant question to what to what Matt is talking about because we talk a lot about multi cloud as a trend and hybrid clouds and this kind of relationship between the traditional view of looking at computing data centers and then expanding to different clouds you know public cloud providers have now amazing platform capabilities and if you think about it the the it goes back to what Matt said about IT ops and the development kind of efforts why is this happening really you know there's there's the study that we did with with an analyst and there was an amazing a shocking stat around how within the next three years organizations will have to support 50% more applications than they do now and we have been trying to test this stat our events that made customer meetings etc that is a lot of a lot of change for organizations so if you think about why are they use why do they need to basically what go and expand to those clouds is because they want to service IT Ops teams want ER servers with capabilities their developers faster right and this is where you have within the IT ops kind of theme organization you have the security kind of frame the compute frame the networking where you know Cisco has a traditional footprint how do you blend all this how do you bring all this together in a linear way to support individual unique application modernization efforts I think that's what are we hearing from customers in terms of the feedback and this is what influences our strategy to converts the different business units and engineering engineering efforts right couple years ago I have to admit I was kind of a multi cloud skeptic I always said I thought it was more of a symptom than actually a strategy a symptom of you know shadow IT and different workloads and so forth but now I'm kind of buying in because I think IT in particular has been brought in to clean up the crime scene I often say so I think it is becoming a strategy so if you could help us understand what you're hearing from customers in terms of their strategy toward the multi cloud and how Cisco that was mapping into that yeah so so when we talk to customers it comes back to the angle at which they're approaching the problem in like you said the shadow IT has been probably around for longer than anybody won't cares to admit because the people want to move faster organizations want to get their product out to market sooner and and so what what really is we're having conversations now about you know how do I get the visibility how do I get you know the policies and the governance so that I can actually understand either how much I'm spending in the cloud or whether I'm getting the actual performance that I'm looking for that I need the connectivity so I get the bandwidth and so these are the kinds of conversations that we have with customers is is is going I realize that this is going on now I actually have to now put some you know governance and controls around that is their products is their solutions is their you know they're looking to Cisco to help them through this journey because it is a journey because as much as we talk about cloud and you know companies that were born in the cloud cloud native there is a tremendous number of IT organizations that are just starting that journey that are just entering into this phase where they have to solve these problems yeah I agree and it's just starting the journey with a deliberate strategy as opposed to okay we got this this thing but if you think about the competitive landscape its kind of interesting and I want to try to understand where Cisco fits because again you you initially had companies that didn't know in a public cloud sort of pushing multi cloud and you'd say oh well okay so they have to do that but now you see anthos come out with Google you see Microsoft leaning in we think eventually AWS is going to lean in and then you say I'm kind of interested in working with someone whose cloud agnostic not trying to force now now Cisco a few years ago you didn't really think about Cisco as a player now so this goes right in the middle I have said often that Cisco's in a great position John Fourier as well to connect businesses and from a source of networking strength making a strong argument that we have the most cost-effective most secure highest performance network to connect clouds that seems to be a pretty fundamental strength of yours and does that essentially summarize your strategy and and how does that map into the actions that you're taking in terms of products and services that you're bringing to market I would say that I can I can I can take that ya know it's a chewy question for hours yeah so I I was thinking about a satellite in you mentioned this before and you're like okay that's you know the world is turning around completely because we we seem to talk about satellite e is something bad happening and now suddenly we completely forgot about it like let let free free up the developers gonna let them do whatever they want and basically that is what I think is happening out there in the market so all the solutions you mentioned in the go to market approaches and the architectures that the public cloud providers at least are offering out there certainly the big three have differences have their strengths and I think those strengths are closer to the developer environment basically you know if you're looking into something like a IML there's one provider that you go with if you're looking for a mobile development framework you're gonna go somewhere else if you're looking for a dr you're gonna go somewhere else maybe not a big cloud but your service provider that you've been dealing with all these all these times and you know that they have their accreditation that you're looking for so where does Cisco come in you know we're not a public cloud provider we offer products as a service from our data centers and our partners data centers but at the - at the way that the industry sees a cloud provider a public cloud like AWS a sure Google Oracle IBM etc we're not that we don't do that our mission is to enable organizations with software hardware products SAS products to be able to facilitate their connectivity security visibility observability and in doing business and in leveraging the best benefits from those clouds so we we kind of we kind of moved to a point where we flip around the question and the first question is who is your cloud provider what how many tell us the clouds you work with and we can give you the modular pieces you can put we can put together for you so there's so that you can make the best out of your plan it's been being able to do that across clouds we're in an environment that is consistent with policies that are consistent that represent the edicts of your organization no matter where your data lives that's sort of the the vision in the way this is translated into products into Cisco's product you naturally think about Cisco as the connectivity provider networking that's that's really sort of our you know go to in what we're also when we have a significant computing portfolio as well so connectivity is not only the connectivity of the actual wire between geographies point A to point B in the natural routing and switching world there's connectivity between applications between cute and so this week you know the announcements were significant in that space when you talk about the compute and the cloud coming together on a single platform that gives you not only the ability to look at your applications from a experience journey map so you can actually know where the problems might occur in the application domain you can actually then go that next level down into the infrastructure level and you can say okay maybe I'm running out of some sort of resource whether it's compute resource whether it's memory whether it's on your private cloud that you have enabled on Prem or whether it's in the public cloud that you have that application residing and then why candidly you have the actual hardware itself so inter-site it has an ability to control that entire stack so you can have that visibility all the way down to the hardware layer I'm glad you brought up some of the applications wonderful we can you know stay there for a moment and talk about some of the changing patterns for customers a lot of talk in the industry about cloud native often it gets conflated with you know microservices containerization and lots of the individual pieces there but you know one of our favorite things that been talked about this week is the software that really sits at the application layer and how that connects down through some of the infrastructure pieces so help us understand what you're hearing from customers and and where how you're helping them through this transition to constants as you were saying absolutely there's going to be lots of new applications more applications and they still have the the old stuff that they need to continue to manage because we know an IT nothing ever goes away that's that's definitely true I was I was thinking you know there's there's a vacuum at the moment and and there's things that Cisco is doing from from technology leadership perspective to fill that gap between the application what do you see when it comes to monitoring making sure your services are observable and how does that fit within the infrastructure stack you know everything upwards network the network layer base again that is changing dramatically some of the things that Matt touched upon with regards to you know being able to connect the the networking the security in the infrastructure the computer infrastructure that the developers basically are deploying on top so there's a lot of there's a lot of things on containerization there's a lot of in fact it's you know one part of the of the self-injure side of the stack that you mentioned and one of the big announcements you know that there's a lot of discussion in the industry around ok how does that abstract further the conversation on networking for example because that now what we're seeing is that you have huge monoliths enterprise applications that are being carved down into micro services ok they you know there's a big misunderstanding around what is cloud native is it related to containers different kind of things right but containers are naturally the infrastructure de facto currency for developers to deploy because of many many benefits but then what happens you know between the kubernetes layer which seems to be the standard and the application who's gonna be managing services talking to each other that are multiplying you know things like service mesh network service mess how is the network evolving to be able to create this immutable infrastructure for developers to deploy applications so there's so many things happening at the same time where cisco has actually a lot of taking a lot of the front seat this is where it gets really interesting you know it's sort of hard to squint through because you mentioned kubernetes is the de facto standard but it's a de-facto standard that's open everybody's playing with but historically this industry has been defined by you know a leader who comes out with a de facto standard kubernetes not a company right it's an open standard and so but there's so many other components than containers and so history would suggest that there's going to be another de facto standard or multiple standards that emerge and your point earlier is you you got to have the full stack you can't just do networking you can't just do certain few so you guys are attacking that whole pie so how do you think this thing will evolve I mean you guys are obviously intend to put out as Casta as wide a net as possible capture not only your existing install base but attractive attract others and you're going aggressively at it as are as are others how do you see it shaking out deep do you see you know four or five pockets do you see you know one leader emerging I mean customers would love all you guys to get together come up with standards that's not going to happen so we're it's jump ball right now well yeah and you think about you know to your point regarding kubernetes is not a company right it is it is a community driven I mean it was open source by a large company but it's but it's community driven now and that's the pace at which open source is sort of evolving there is so much coming at IT organizations from a new paradigm a new software something that's you know the new the shiny object that sort of everybody sort of has to jump on to and sort of say that is the way we're going to function so IT organizations have to struggle with this influx of just every coming at them and every angle and I think what's starting to happen is the management and the you know that stack who controls that or who is helping IT organizations to manage it for them so really what we're trying to say is there's elements that you have to put together that have to function and kubernetes is just one example docker the operating system that associated with it that runs all that stuff then you have the application that goes rides IDEs on top of it so now what we have to have is things like what we just announced this week HX ap the application platform for HX so you have the compute cluster but then you have the on top of that that's managed by an organization that's looking at the security that's looking at the the actual making opinions about what should go in the stock and managing that for you so you don't have to deal with that because you can just focus on the application development yeah I mean Cisco's in a strong position to do there's no question about it and to me it comes down to execution if you guys execute and deliver on the the products and services that you say you know your nouns for instance this week and previously and you continue on a roadmap you're gonna get a fair share of this marketplace I think there's no question so last topic before we let you go is love your viewpoint on customers what's separating kind of leaders from you know the followers in this space you know there's so much data out there you know I'm a big fan of the state of DevOps report yeah focus you know separate you know some but not the not here's the technology or the piece but the organizational and you know dynamics that you should do so it sounds like Matt you you like that that report also love them what are you hearing from customers how do you help guide them towards becoming leaders in the cloud space yeah the state of DevOps report was fascinating and I mean they've been doing that for what a number of years yeah exactly and really what it's sort of highlighting is two main factors that I think that are in this revolution or this this this paradigm shift or journey we're going through there's the technology side for sure and so that's getting more complex you have micro services you have application explosion you have a lot of things that are occurring just in technology that you're trying to keep up but then it's really about the human aspect that human elements the people about it and that's really I think what separates you know the the elites that are really sort of you know just charging forward in the head because they've been able to sort of break down the silos because really what you're talking about in cloud native DevOps is how you take the journey of that experience of the service from end to end from the development all the way to production and how do you actually sort of not have organizations that look at their domain their data set their operations and then have to translate that or have to sort of you know have another conversation with another organization that it doesn't look at that that has no experience of that so that is what we're talking about that end-to-end view is that in addition to all the things we've been talking about I think Security's a linchpin here now you guys are executing on security you got a big portfolio and you've seen a lot of M&A and a lot of companies now trying to get in and it's gonna be interesting to see how that plays out but that's going to be a key because organizations are going to start there from a strategy standpoint and then build out yeah absolutely if you follow the DevOps methodology its security gets baked in along the way so that you're not having to sit on after do anything Custis give you the final word I was just as follow-up with regard what what Mark was saying there's so many there's what's happening out there is this just democracy around standards which is driven by communities and we will love that in fact cisco is involved in many open-source community projects but you asked about customers and and just right before you were asking about you know who's gonna be the winner there's so many use cases there's so much depth in terms of you know what customers want to do with on top of kubernetes you know take AI ml for example something that we have we have some some offering the services around there's the customer that wants to do AML there their containers that their infrastructure will be so much different to someone else's doing something just hosting yeah and there's always gonna be a SAS provider that is niche servicing some oil and gas company you know which means that the company of that industry will go and follow that instead of just going to a public law provider that is more organized if there's a does that make sense yeah yeah this there's relationships that exist the archer is gonna get blown away that add value today and they're not gonna just throw them out so exactly right well thank you so much for helping us understand the updates where your customers are driving super exciting space look forward to keeping an eye on it thank you thank you so much all right there's still lots more coming here from Cisco live 20/20 in Barcelona people are standing watching all the developer events lots of going on the floor and we still have more so thank you for watching the cute [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back over 17,000 in attendance here for Cisco live 2020 in Barcelona ops to Minh and my co-host is Dave Volante and to help us to dig into of course one of the most important topic of the day of course that security we're thrilled to have back a distinguished engineer Francisco one of our cube alumni TK Kia Nene TK thanks so much for joining us ideal man good good all right so TK it's 2020 it's a new decade we know the bad actors are still out there they're there the the question always is you know it used to be you know how do you keep ahead of them then I've here Dave say many times well you know it's not you know when it's it's not if it's when you know you probably already have been okay you know compromised before so it gives latest so you know what you're seeing out there what you're talking to customers about in this important space yeah it's uh it's kind of an innovation spiral you know we we innovate we make it harder for them and then they innovate they make it harder for us right and round and round we go that's been going on for for many years I think I think the most significant changes that have happened recently have to deal with not essentially their objectives but how they go about their objectives and Defenders topologies have changed greatly instead of just your standard enterprise you now have you know hybrid multi cloud and all these new technologies so while while all that innovation happens you know they get a little clever and they find weaknesses and round and round we go so we talked a lot about the sort of changing profile of the the threat actors going from hacktivists took criminals now is a huge business and nation-states even what's that profile look like today and how has that changed over the last decade or so you know that's pretty much stayed the same bad guys are bad guys at some point in time you know just how how they go about their business their techniques they're having to like I said innovate around you know we make it harder for them they you know on Monday we're safe on Tuesday we're not you know and then on Wednesday it switches again so so it talked about kind of this multi-cloud environment when we talk to customers it's like well I want the developer to be able to build their application and not really have to think too much underneath it that that has to have some unique challenges we know security we knew long ago well I just go to the cloud it doesn't mean they take care of it some things are there some things they're gonna remind you now you need to make sure you set certain things otherwise you could be there but how do we make sure that Security's baked in everywhere and is up as a practice that everybody's doing well I mean again some of the practices hold true no matter what the environment I think the big thing was cognitive is in back in the day when when you looked at an old legacy data center you were part sort of administrator in your part detective and most people don't even know what's running on there that's not true in cloud native environments some some llamó file some some declaration it's it's just exactly what productions should look like right and then the machines instantiate production so you're doing things that machine scale forces the human scale people to be explicit and and for me I mean that's that's a breath of fresh air because once you're explicit then you take the mystery out of what you're protecting how about in terms of how you detect threats right phishing for credentials has become a huge deal but not just you know kicking down the door or smashing a window using your your own credentials to get inside of your network so how is that affected the way in which you detect yeah it's it's a big deal you know a lot of a lot of great technology has a dual use and what I mean by that is network cryptology you know that that whole crypto on the network has made us safer for us to compute over insecure networks and unfortunately it works just as well for the bad guys so you know all of their malicious activity is now private to so it you know for us we just have to invent new ways of detecting direct inspection for instance I think it's a thing of the past I mean we just can't depend on it anymore we have to have tools of inference and not only that but it's it's gave rise in a lot of innovation on behavioral science and as you say you know it's it's not that the attacker is breaking into your network anymore they're logging in ok what do you do then right Alice Alice's account it's not gonna set off the triggers so you have to say you know when did Alice start to behave differently you know she's working in accounting why is she playing around with the source code repository that's that's a different thing right yes automation is such a big trend you know how do we make sure that automation doesn't leave us more vulnerable that's rarity because we need to be able automate we've gone beyond human scale for most of these configurations that's exactly right and and how do how do we I always say just with security automation in particular just because you can automate something doesn't mean you should and you really have to go back and have practices you know you could argue that that this thing is just a you know machine scale automation you could do math on a legal pad or you can use a computer to do it right what so apply that to production if you mechanized something like order entry or whatever you're you're you're automating part of your business use threat modeling you use the standard threaten modeling like you would your code the network is code now right and the storage is code and everything is code so you know just automate your testing do your threat modeling do all that stuff please do not automate for your attacker matrix is here I want to go back to the Alice problem because you're talking about before you have to use inference so Alice's is in the network and you're observing her moves every day and then okay something anomalous occurs maybe she's doing something that normally she wouldn't do so you've got to have her profile in her actions sort of observed documented stored the data has got to be there and at the same time you want to make sure it's always that balance of putting handcuffs on people you know versus allowing them to do their job and be productive at the same time as well you don't want to let the bad guys know that you know that alice is doing something that she didn't be doing is actually not Alice so all that complexity how are you dealing with it and what's the data model look like doing it machines help let's say that machines can help us you know you and I we have only so many sense organs and the cognitive brain can only store so many so much state machines really help us extend that and so you know looking at not three dimensions of change but 7000 dimensions have changed right something in the machine is going to say there's an outlier here that's interesting and you can get another machine to say that's that's interesting maybe I should focus on that and you build these analytical pipelines so that at the end of it you know they may argue with each other all the way to the end but at the end you have a very high fidelity indicator that might be at the protocol level it might be at the behavioral level it might be seven days back or thirty days back all these temporal and spatial dimensions it's really cheap to do it with a machine yeah and if we could stay on that for a second so it try to understand I know that's a high-level example but is it best practice to have the Machine take action or is it is it an augmentation and I know it depends on the use case but but how is that sort of playing out again you have to do all of this safely okay a lot of things that machines do don't return back to human scale stuff that returns back to human scale that humans understand that is as useful so for instance if machines you know find out all these types of in assertions even in medical you know right now if if you've got so much telemetry going into the medical field see the machine tells you you have three weeks to live I mean you better explain what the heck you know how you came about that assertion it's the same with security you know if I'm gonna say look we're gonna quarantine your machine or we're gonna readjust machine it's not I'm not like picking movies for you or the next song you might listen to this is high stakes and so when you do things like that your analytics needs to have what is called entailment you have to explain what it is how you got to that assertion that's become incredibly important in how we measure our effectiveness in in doing analytics that's interesting because because you're using a lot of machine intelligence to do this and in a lot of AI is blackbox you're saying you cannot endure that blackbox problem in security yeah that black boxes is is very dangerous you know I you know personally I feel that you know things that should be open sourced this type of technology it's so advanced that the developer needs to understand that the tester needs to understand that certainly the customer needs to understand it you need to publish papers and be very very transparent with this domain because if it is in fact you know black box and it's given the authority to automate something like you know shut down the power or do things like that that's when things really start to get dangerous so good TK what wondered you know give us the latest on stealthWatch there you know Cisco's positioning when it when it comes to everything we've been talking about here you know stealthWatch again is it's been in market for quite some time it's actually been in market since 2001 and when I when I look back and see how much has changed you know how we've had to keep up with the market and again it's not just the algorithms rewrite for detection it's the environments have changed right but when did when did multi-cloud happen so so operating again cusp it's not that stealthWatch wants to go their customers are going there and they want the stealthWatch function across their digital business and so you know we've had to make advancements on the changing topology we've had to make advancements because of things like dark data you know the the network's opaque now right we have to have a lot of inference so we've just you know kept up and stayed ahead of it you know we've been spending a lot of time talking to developer communities and there's a lot of open-source tooling out there that that's helping enable developers specifically in security space you were talking about open-source earlier how does what you've been doing the self watch intersect with that yeah that's always interesting too because there's been sort of a shift in let's call them the cool kids right the cool kids they want everything is code right so it's not about what's on glass or you know a single pane of glass anymore it's it's what stealth watches code right what's your router as code look at dev net right yeah yeah I mean definite is basically Cisco as code and it's beautiful because that is infrastructure as code I mean that is the future and so all the products not just stealthWatch have beautiful api's and that's that's really exciting I've been saying for a while now it's do you I think you agree is that that is a big differentiator for Cisco I think you you're one of the few if not the only large established player and the enterprise that has figured out that sort of infrastructure is code play others have tried and are sort of getting there but you know start/stop you use a term that really cool is like living off the land you know bear bear grylls like the guy who lives down so bad so and and and threat actors are doing that now they're using your own installed software and tooling to hack you and and steal from you how were you dealing with that problem yeah it's a tough one and like I said you know much respect the the adversary is talented and they're patient they're well funded okay that's that's where it starts and so you know why why bring why bring an interpreter to a host when there's already one there right why right all this complicated software distribution when I can just use yours and so that's that's where the the play the game starts and and the most advanced threats aren't leaving footprints because the footprints are already there you know they'll get on a machine and behaviorally they'll check the cache to see what's hot and what's hot in the cache means that behaviorally it's a path they can go they're not cutting a new trail most of the time right so living off the land is not only the tools that they're using the automation your automation they're using against you but it's also behavioral and so that that makes it you know it makes it harder it's it impossible no can we make it harder for them yes so yeah no I'm having fun and I've been doing this for over twenty five years every week it's something new well it's a hard problem you're attacking and you know Robert Herjavec who came on the cube sort of opened my eyes and you think about what are we securing we're securing everything I mean a critical infrastructure were essentially exerted securing the entire global economy and he said something that really struck me it's an 86 trillion dollar economy we spend point zero one four percent on securing that economy and it's nothing now of course he's an entrepreneur and he's pimping for his is his business but it's true we are barely scratching the surface of this problem yeah I'm and it's changing I mean it's changing it could it be better yes it is changing his board awareness you know twenty years ago then right me to a dinner party they you know what does your husband do I'd say you know cyber security or something they'd roll their eyes and change the subject now they asked me the same question so oh you know my computer's running really slow right these are not this is everyone I'm worried about a life hack yeah how do I protect myself or what about these coming off the bank I mean that's those guys a dinner table cover every party so now now you know I just make something up I don't do cybersecurity I just you know a tort or a jipner's you've been to this business forever I can't remember have I ever asked you the superhero question what is that your favorite superhero that's a tough one there's all the security guys I know they like it's always dreamed about saving the world [Laughter] you're my superhero man I love what you do I think you've a great asset for Cisco and Cisco's customers really thanks TK give us a final word if people want to you know find out more about about what Cisco's doing read more of what you're working on but what's some of the best resource I have to go do you know just drop by the web pages I mean everything's published out that like I said even even for the super nerdy you know we published all our our laurs security analytics papers I think we're over 50 papers published in the last 12 years TK thank you so much always a pleasure to catch alright yeah and a travels thank you so much for de Villante I'm Stu Mittleman John furrier is also in the house we will be back with lots more coverage here from Cisco live 20/20 in Barcelona thanks for watching the keys [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020s brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners hello and welcome back to the cubes live coverage it's our fourth day of four days of coverage here in Barcelona Spain for Cisco live 2020 I'm John Faria my co-host to many men to great guests here in the dev net studio where the cube is sitting all week long been packed with action mindy Whaley senior director developer experiences but dev net and partner a senior director welcome back to this cube good to see you guys glad to be here so we've had a lot of history with you guys what from day one yes watching def net from an idea of hey we should develop earthing you also have definite create yes separate more developer focused definite is Cisco's developer environment we've been here from the beginning what a progression congratulations on the success thank you thank you so much it's great to be here in Barcelona with everybody here you know learning in the workshops and we just love these times to connect with our community at Cisco live and it definitely ate what you mentioned which is coming up in March so it's right around the corner def net zone which we're in it's been really robust spins it's been the top of the show every year and it gets bigger and the sessions are packed because people are learning developers new developers as well as Cisco engineers who were certified coming in getting new skills as the modern cloud hybrid environments are new skills is a technology shift yeah exactly and what we have in the definite zone are different ways that the engineers and developers can engage with that technology shift so we have demos around IOT and security and showing how you know to prevent threats from attacking the Industrial routers and things like that we have coding workshops from you know beginning intro to Python intro to get all the way up through advanced like kubernetes topics and things like that so people can really dive in with what they're looking for and this year we're really excited because we have the new definite certifications with those exams coming out right around the corner in February so a lot of people are here saying I'm ready to skill up for those exams I'm starting to dive into this topic well Susie we was on she's the chief of deaf net among other things and she said there's gonna be a definite 500 the first 500 certifications of deaf net are gonna be kind of like the Hall of Fame or you know the inaugural or founder certifications so can you explain what this it means it's not a definite certification badge it's a series of write different sir can you deeper in then yeah just like we have our you know existing network certifications which are so respected and loved around the world people get CCIE tattoos and things just like there's an associate and professional and expert level on the networking truck there's now a definite associate a definite professional and coming soon definite expert and then there's also specialist badges which help you add specific skills like data center automation IOT WebEx so it's a whole new set of certifications that are more focused on the software so there are about 80 80 % software skills 20 percent knowledge of networking and then how you really connect up and down the stock so these are new certifications not replacing anything all the same stuff they're new they're part of the same program they have the same rigor the same kind of tests they actually have ways to enter weave with the existing networking certifications because we want people to do both skill paths right to build this new IT team of the future and so it's a completely new set of exams the exams are gonna be available to take February 24th and you can start signing up now so with the definite 500 you know that's gonna be a special recognition for the first 500 people who get dead note certifications it'll be a lifetime achievement they'll always be in the definite 500 right and I've had people coming up and telling me you know I'm signed up for the first day I'm taking my exams on the first day I'm trying to get into them you and I only always want to be on the lift so I think we might be on them and what's really great is with the certifications we've heard from people in the zone that they've been coming and taking classes and learning these skills but they didn't have a specific way to map that to their career path to get rewarded at work you know to have that sort of progression and so with the certifications they really will have that and it's also really important for our partners and par is doing a lot of work with certifications and partners yeah definitely that would love to hear a little bit we've interviewed on the cube over the years some of the definite partners from a technology standpoint of course the the channels ecosystem hugely important to Cisco's business gives the update as to you know definite partnering as well as what will these certifications mean to both the technology and go to market partners yeah the wonderful thing about this is it really demonstrates Cisco's embracement of software and making sure that we're providing that common language for software developers and networkers to bring the two together and what we've found is that our partners are at different levels of maturity along that progression of program ability and this new definite specialization which is anchored in the individuals that are now certified at that partner allow them to demonstrate from a go-to-market standpoint from a recognition standpoint that as a practice they have these skills and look at the end of the day it's all about delivering what our customers need and our customers are asking us for significant help in automation digital transformation they're trying to drive new business outcomes and this this will provide that recognition on on who to partner with in the market it's so important I remember when Cisco helped a lot of the partner ecosystem build data center practices went from the silos and now embracing you've got the hardware the software we're talking multi cloud it's the practice that is needed today going forward to help customers with where they're going it really is and and another benefit that we're finding and talking to our partners is we're packaging this up and rolling it out is not only will it help them from a recognition standpoint from a practice standpoint and from a competitive differentiation standpoint but it'll also help them attract challenge I mean it's no secret there is a talent shortage right now if you talk to any CEO that's top of mind and how these partners are able to attract these new skills and attract smart people smart people like working on smart things right and so this has really been a big traction point for them as well it's also giving ways to really specifically train for new job roles so some of the ways that you can combine the new definite certifications with the network engineering certifications we've looked at it and said you know there's there's a role of Network automation developer that's a new role everyone we ask in one of our sessions who needs that person on their team so many customers partners raise their hands like we want the network Automation developer on our team and you can combine you know your CCNP Enterprise with a definite certification and build up the skills to be that Network automation developer certainly has been great buzz I got to get your guys thoughts because certainly it's for careers and you guys are betting on the the people and the people are betting on Cisco mm-hmm yes this is what's going on submit surety of Devin it almost it's like a pinch me moment for you guys because you continue to grow I got to ask you what are some of the cool things that you're showing here as you mature you still have the start here session which is intro to Python and other things pretty elementary and then there's more advanced things what are some of the new things that's going on yeah that you could share so some of the new things we've got going on and one of my favorites is the IOT insecurity demonstration there's a an industrial robot arm that's picking and placing things and you can see how it's connected to the network and then something goes wrong with that robot alarm and then you can actually show how you can use the software and security tools to see was there code trying to access you know something that that robot was it was using it's getting in the way of it working so you could detect threats and move forward on that we also have a whole automation journey that starts from modeling your network to testing to how you would deploy automation to a deep dive on telemetry and then ends with multi domain automation so really helping engineers like look at that whole progression that's been that's been really popular Park talked about the specialization which ones are more popular or entry-level which ones are people coming into getting certified first network engineering automation first or what's the yeah so we're so the program is going to roll out with three different levels one is a specialized level the second is an advanced level and then we'll look to that third level again they're anchored in the in the individual certs and so as we look for that entry level it's really all about automation right I mean some things you take for granted but you still need these new skills to be able to automate and scale and have repeatable scalable benefits from that this the second tier will be more cross-domain and that's where we're really thinking that an additional skill set is needed to deliver dashboard experience compliance experiences and then that next level again we'll anchor towards the expert level that's coming out but one thing I want to point out is in addition to just having the certified people on staff they also have to demonstrate that they have a practice around it so it's not just enough to say I've passed an exam as we work with them to roll out the practice and they earn the badge they're demonstrating that they have the full methodology in place so that it really there's a lot behind it that means we can't be in the 500 list then even if a 500 list I don't know that the cube would end up being specialized its advertising no seriously all fun it's all fun it's Cisco live in Europe is there a difference between European and USD seeing any differences in geographic talent you know in the first couple years we did it I think there was a bigger difference it felt like there were different topics that were very popular in the US slightly different in Europe last year and this year I feel like they have converged it's it's the same focus on DevOps automation security as a huge focus in both places and it also feels like the the interest and level of the people attending has also converged it's really similar congratulations been fun to watch the rise and success of Devon it continues to be strong how see in the hub here and the definite zone behind us pact sessions yes what's the biggest surprise for you guys in terms of things that you didn't expect or some of the success what's what's jumped out yeah I think you know one of the points that I want to make sure we also cover and it has been an added benefit we're hoping it would happen we just didn't realize it would happen this soon we're attracting new companies new partners so the specialization won't just be available for our traditional bars this is also available for our non resale and we are finding different companies accessing definite resources and learning these skills so that's been a really great benefit of Deb net overall definitely my favorite surprises are when I show up at the community events and I hear from someone I met last year what the what they went back and did and the change that they drove and they come in their company and I think we're seeing those across the board of people who start a grassroots movement take back some new ideas really create change and then they come back and we get to hear about that from them those are my favorite surprises and I tell you we've known for years how important the developer is but I think the timing on this has been perfect because it is no longer just oh the developer has some tools that they like in the corner the developer connected to the business and driving things forward exactly so perfect timing congratulations on this certification their thing that's been great is that our at Cisco itself we now have API is across the whole portfolio and up and down the stock so that's been a wonderful thing to see come together because it opens up possibilities for all these developers so Cisco's API first company we are building it guys everywhere we can and and that the community is is taking them and finding creative things to build it's been fun to watch you guys change Cisco but also impact customers has been great to watch far many thanks for coming up yeah games live coverage here in Barcelona for Cisco live 20/20 I'm John Ford Dave Dave Alon face to many men we right back with more after this short break [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners hello and welcome back to the cubes live coverage here at Cisco live 20/20 and partial into Spain I'm John first evening men cube coverage we've got a lot of stuff going on with Cisco multi-cloud and cloud technologies of clarification of Cisco's happening in real time is happening right now cloud is here here to stay we got two great guests to unpack what's going on in cloud native and networking and applications as the modern infrastructure and software evolves we got eugene kim global product marketing and compute storage at cisco global part of marketing manager and fabio corey senior director cloud solutions marketing guys great comeback great thanks for coming back appreciate it thanks very much great to see a lot of guys so probably we've had multiple conversations and usually even out from the sales force given kind of the that the discussion and the motivation cloud is big it's here it's here to stay it's changing Cisco API first we hear and all the products it's changing everything what's the story now what's going on I would say you know the reason why we're so excited about the launch here in Barcelona it's because this time it's all about the application experience I mean the last two years we've been announcing some really exciting stuff in the cloud space right think about all the announcements with the AWS the Google's the Azure so the world but this time it really boils down to making sure that is incredibly hyper distributed world well there is an application explosion ultimately we will help for the right operations tools and infrastructure management tools to ensure that the right application experience will be guaranteed for the end customer and that's incredibly important because at the end what really really matters is that you will ensure the best possible digital experience to your customer otherwise ultimately nothing is gonna work and of course you're going to lose your brand and your customers one of the main stories that we're covering is the transformation of the industry also Cisco and one of the highlights to me was the opening keynote you had app dynamics first not networking normally it's like what's under the hood the routers and the gear no it was about the applications this is the story we're seeing it's kind of a quiet unveiling it's not yet a launch but it's evolving very quickly can you share what's going on behind this all this absolutely it's exactly along the lines of what I was saying a second ago in the end that the reason why we're driving the announcement if you want from the application experience side of the house is because without dynamics we already have a very very powerful application performance measurement tool which it's evolving extremely rapidly first of all after Amex can correlate not just the application performance to some technology kpi's but to true actual business KPIs so AB dynamics can give you for instance the real-time visibility of say a marketing funnel conversion rates transactions that you're having in your in your business operation now we're introducing an incredibly powerful new capability that takes the bar to a whole new level and that's the dynamics experience journey Maps what are those it's actually the ability of focusing not so much on front-ends and backends and databases performances but really focusing on what the user is seeing in front of his or her screen and so what really matters is capturing the journey that a given user of your application is is being and understanding whether the experience is the one that you want to deliver oh you have like a sudden drop of somewhere and you know why that is important because in the end we've been talking about is it a problem of the application performance user performance well it could be a badly designed page how do you know and so this is a very precious information is that were giving to application developers not just to the IT ops guys that is incredibly precious to get this in so you just brought up that journey so that's part of the news so just break down real quick one minute yeah what the news is yeah so we have three components the first one as you as you correctly pointed out is really introduction the application journey Maps right the experience journey Maps that's very very important the second is we are actually integrating after am it's with the inter-site action inter-site optimization manager the workload team is a workload promisor and so because there is a change of data between the two now you are in a position to immediately understand whether you have an application problem we have a workload problem or infrastructure problem which is ultimate what you really need to do as quickly as you can and thirdly we have introduced a new version of our hyper flex platform which is hyper-converged flat G flat for Cisco with a fully containerized version we tax free if you want as well there is a great platform for containerized application of parameter so you teen when I've been talking to customers last few years when they go through their transformational journey there's the modernization they need to do the patterns I've seen most successful is first you modernize the platform often HCI is you know and often for that it really simplifies the environment you know reduces the silos and has more of that operational model that looks closer to what the cloud experience is and then if I've got a good platform then I can modernize the applications on top of it but often those two have been a little bit disconnected it feels like the announcements now that they are coming together what are you seeing what are you hearing how is your solution set solving this issue yeah exactly I mean as we've been talking to our customers love them are going through different application modernisations and kubernetes and containers is extremely important to them and to build a container cloud on Prem is extremely one of their needs and so there's three distinctive requirements that they've kind of talked to us about a lot of it has to be able to it's got to be very simple very turnkey and a fully integrated ready to turn on the other one is something that's very agile right very DevOps friendly and the third being a very economic container cloud on Prem as far we mentioned high flex application platform takes our hyper-converged system and builds on top of it a integrated kubernetes platform to deliver a container as a service type capability and it provides a full stack fully supported element platform for our customers and the one of the best great aspects of is that's all managed from inside from the physical infrastructure to the hyper-converged layer to all the way to the container management so it's very exciting to have that full stack management and insight as well yeah it's great to you know John and I have been following this kubernetes wave you know since the early early days Fabio mentioned integrations with the Amazons and Google's the world because you know a few years ago you talked to customers and they're like oh well I'm just gonna build my own urbanity right back nobody ever said that is easy now just delivering at his service seems to be the way most people wanted so if I'm doing it on Amazon or Google they've got their manage service that I could do that or that they're through partners they're working with so explain what you're doing to make it simpler in the data center environment because I'm tram absolutely is a piece of that hybrid equation the customers need yes so essentially from the customer experience perspective as I mentioned it's very fairly turnkey right from the hyper flicks application platform we're taking our hyper grew software we're integrating a application virtualization layer on top of it Linux KVM based and then on top of that we're integrating the kubernetes stack on top as well and so in essence right it's a fully curated kubernetes stack right it has all the different elements from the networking from the storage elements and and providing that in a very turnkey way and as I mentioned the inner site management is really providing that simplicity that customers need for that management ok Fabio this the previous announcement you've made with the public clouds yeah this just ties into those hybrid environments that's exactly you know a few years ago people like oh is there gonna be a distribution that wins in kubernetes we don't think that's the answer but still I can't just move between kubernetes you know seamlessly yet but this is moving towards that direction so a lot of customers want to have a very simple implementation at the same time they want of course a multi cloud approach and I really care about you know marking the difference between you know multi-cloud hybrid cloud there's been a lot of confusion but if you think about it multi cloud is really rooted into the business need of harnessing innovation from whatever it comes from you know the different clouds PV different things and you know what they do today tomorrow it could even change so people want option maladie so they want a very simple implementation that's integrated with public cloud providers that simplifies their life in terms of networking security and application of workload management and we've been executing towards that goal to fundamentally simplify the operations of these pretty complex kind of hybrid environments I want you to nail that operations on ibrid that's where multi cloud comes in absolutely just a connection point absolutely you're not a shitty mice no isn't a shit so in order to fulfill your business like your I know business needs you then you have a hybrid problem and you want to really kind of have a consistent production rate environment between fins on Prem that you own and control versus things that you use and you want to control better now of course there are different school of thoughts but most of the customers who are speaking with really want to expand their governance and technology model right to the cloud as opposed to absorb in different ways of doing things from each and every clock I want to unpack a little bit of what you said earlier about the knowing where the problem is because a lot of times it's a point the finger at the other first and where's it's the application problem isn't a problem so I want to get into that but first I want to understand the hyper flex application platform Eugene if you could just share the main problem that you guys saw what did some of the pain points that customers had what problems does the AP solve yeah as I mentioned it's really the platform for our customers to modernize their applications on right and it addresses those things that they're looking for as far as the economics right really the ability to provide a full stack container experience without having to you know but you know bringing any third party hypervisor licenses as well as support cost so that's fully integrated there you have your integrated hyper-converged storage capability you have the cloud-based management and that's really developing you providing that developer DevOps simplicity from the data Julie that they're looking for internally as well as for their product production environments and then the other aspect is its simplicity to be able to manage all this right in the entire lifecycle management as well so it's the operational side of the whole yeah uncovers Papio on the application side where the problem is because this is where I'm a little bit skeptical you know normally rightfully so but I can see in a problem where it's like whose fault is it gasification is problem or the network I mean it runs into more serious workloads the banking app that's having trouble how do you know where it what the problem is and how do you solve that problem what what's going on for that specific issue absolutely and you know the name of the game here is breaking down this operational side right and I love what our app dynamics VP GM Danny winoker said you know it has this terminology beast DevOps which you know may sound like an interesting acrobatics but it's absolutely true the business has to be part of this operational kind of innovation because as you said you know developer edges you know drops their containers and their code to the IET ops team but you don't really know whether the problem a certain point is gonna be in the code or in how the application is actually deployed or maybe a server that doesn't have enough CPU so in the end it boils down to one very important thing you have to have visibility inside and take action and every layer of the stack I mean instrumentation absolutely there are players that only do it in their software overlay domain the problem is very often these kind of players assume that underneath links are fine and very often they're not so in the end this visibility inside inaction is the loop that everybody is going after these days to really get to the next if you want generational operation where you gotta have a constant feedback loop and making it more faster and faster because in the end you can only win in the marketplace right regardless of your IT ops if you're faster than your competitor well still still was questioning the GM of AppDynamics running observability and he's like no it's not to feature it's everywhere so he his comment was yeah but serve abilities don't really talk about it because it's big din do you agree with that absolutely it has to be at every layer of the stack and only if you have visibility inside an action through the entire stack from the software all the way to the infrastructure level that you can solve the problem otherwise the finger-pointing quote-unquote will continue and you will not be able to gain the speed that you need okay so the question on my mind I want to get both of you guys can weigh in on this is that you look at Cisco as a company you got a lot going on I mean a guy's huge customer base core routers - no applications there's a lot going on a lot of a lot of complexity you got IOT security Ramirez talked about that you got the WebEx rooms got totally popular it's kind of got a lot of glam to it having the WebEx kind of you know I guess what virtual presence was yeah telepresence kind of model and then you get cloud is there a mind share within the company around how cloud is baked into everything because you can't do IOT edge without having some sort of cloud operational things so there's stuff you're talking about is not just a division it's kind of gonna it's kind of threads everywhere across Cisco what's the what's the mind share right now within the Cisco teams and also customers around clarification well I would say it's it's a couple of dimension the first one is the cloud is one of the critical domains of this multi domain architecture that of course is the cornerstone of Cisco's technology strategy right if you think about it it's all about connecting users to applications wherever they are and not just the user the applications themselves like if you look at the latest stats from IDC 58% of workloads is heading to the public cloud and to the edge it's like the data center is literally exploding in many different directions so you have this highly distributed kind of fabric guess what sits in between all these applications and microservices is a secure network and that's exactly what we're executing upon now that's the first kind of consideration the second is if you look at the other silver line most of the Cisco technology innovation is also going a direction of absorbing cloud as a simplified way of managing all the components or the infrastructure you look at the IP flex ap is actually managed by inter site which is a SAS kind of component this journey started a long time ago with Cisco Meraki and then of course we have SAS properties like WebEx everything else is kind of absolutely migrants reporter we've been reporting eugen that from years ago we saw the movement where api's are starting to come in when you go back five years ago not a lot of the gear and stuff at Cisco had api's now you got api's building into all the new products that's right you see the software shift with you know you know intent-based networking to AppDynamics it's interesting it's you're seeing kind of this agile mindset this is some of you and I talk about all the time but agile now is the new model is it ready for customers I mean the normal Enterprise is still got the infrastructure and application it's separated okay how do I bring it together what are you guys seeing the customer base what's going on with with not that not the early adopters heavy-duty hardcore pioneers out there but you know the the general mainstream enterprise are they there yet have they had that moment of awakening yeah I mean I think they they are there because fundamentally it's all about that ensuring that application experience and you can only ensure that application experience right by having your application teams and your structure teams work together and that's what's exciting you mentioned the API is and what we've done there with AppDynamics integrating with inter-site workload optimizer as Fabio mentioned it's all about visibility inside action and what app dynamics is provides providing that business and end-user application performance experience visibility inner sites giving you know visibility on the underlining workload and the resources whether it's on Prem in your you know drive data center environment or in different type of cloud providers so you get that full stack visibility right from the application all the way down to the bottom and then inner side local optimizer is then also optimizing the resources to proactively ensure that application experience so before you know if we talk about someone at a checkout and they're about to have abandonment because the functions not working we're able to proactively prevent that and take a look at all that so you know in the end I think it's all about ensuring that application experience and what we're providing with app dynamics is for the application team is kind of that horizontal visibility of how that application is performing and at the same time if there's an issue the infrastructure team could see exactly within the workload topology where the issue is and insert' aeneas lee whether it be manual intervention or even automatically there's or a ops capability go ahead and provide that action so the action could be you know scaling out the VMS it's on-prem or looking at a new different type of ec2 template in the cloud that's what's very exciting about this it's really the application experience is now driving and optimizing infrastructure in real time and let me flip your question like do you even have a choice John when you think about in the next two years 50% more applications if you're a large enterprise you have 5 to 7,000 apps you have another to 3,000 applications just coming into into the the frame and then 50% of the existing ones that are gonna be refactor lifted and shifted or replace or retired by SAS application it's just like it's tsunami that's that's coming on you and oh by the way because of again the micro service is kind of affect the number of dependencies between all these applications is growing incredibly rapidly like last year we were eight average interdependencies for applications now we are 20 so imaging imaging what happens as as you are literally flooded with the way the scanner really you have to ensure that your application infrastructure fundamentally will get tied up as quickly as you can still and I have been toilet for at least five years now if not longer the networking has been the key kind of last changeover - clarification and I would agree with you guys I think I've asked the question because I wanted to get your perspective but think about it it's 13 years since the iPhone so mobile has shown people that a mobile app can change business but now if you look at the pressure the network's bringing the pressure on the network or the pressure for the network to be better than programmable is the rise of video and data I mean so you got mobile check now you've got video I mean more people doing video now than ever before videos of consumer oil as streaming you got data these two things absolutely forced yeah the customers to deal with it but what really tipped the the balance John is is actually the SAS effect is the cloud effect because as you know it's in IT sort of inflection points nothing is linear right so once you reach a certain critical mass of cloud apps and we're absolutely there already all of a sudden you're traffic pattern on your network changes dramatically so why in the world are you continuing kind of you know concentrating all of your traffic in your data center and then going to the internet you have to absolutely open the floodgates at the branch level as close to the users as possible and that implies a radical change I would even add to that and I think you guys are right on where you guys are going it may be hard to kind of tease out with all the complexity with Cisco but in the keynote the business model shifts come from SAS so you got all this technical stuff going on now you have this Asif ocation or cloud that's changes the business models so new entrants can come in and existing players can get better so I think that whole business model conversation yeah never was discussed at Cisco live before yeah in depth as well hey run your business connect your hubs campus move packets around that was applications in business model yeah but also the fact that there is increasing number of software capabilities and so fundamental you want to simplify the life of your customers through subscription models that help the customer by now using what they really need right at any given point in time all the way to having enterprise agreements I also think that's about delivering these application experiences for your business small different type experience that's really what's differentiating you from your different competitors right and so I think that's a different type of shift as well well you guys are good got some good angle on this cloud I love it I got to ask you the question what can we expect next from Cisco more progression along clarification what's next well I would say we've been incredibly consistent I believe in the last few years in executing on our cloud strategy which again is centered around helping customers really gluon this mix set of data centers and clouds to make it work as one write as much as possible and so what we really deliver is networking security and application of performance management and we're integrating there's more and more on the two sides of the equation right the the designer side and the powerful outside and more more integrating in between all of these layers again to fundamentally give you this operational capability to get faster and faster we'll continue doing so and you set up before we came on camera that you were talking to the sales teams what are they what's their vibe with the sales team they get excited by this what's that oh yeah feedback oh yeah absolutely from the inner side were claw optimizer and they have dynamics that's very exciting for them especially the conversations they're having with their customers really from that application experience and proactively insuring it and on the hyper flex application platform side this is extremely exciting with providing a container cloud to our customers and you know what's coming down is more and more capabilities for our customers to modernize their applications on hyper flex you guys are riding some pretty big waves here at Cisco I get a cloud way to get the IOT Security wave it's pretty exciting pretty big stuff thanks for coming in thanks for sharing the insights Fabio I appreciate it thank you for having us your coverage here in Barcelona I'm John Force dude Minutemen be back with more coverage fourth day of four days of cube coverage we right back after this short break [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] why Trump Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back to Barcelona everybody we're here at Cisco live and you're watching the cube the leader in live tech coverage we got to the events and extract the signal from the noise this is day one really we started a zero yesterday Eric Hertzog is here he's the CMO and vice president of storage channels probably been on the cube more than [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back everyone's two cubes live coverage day four of four days of wall-to-wall action here in Barcelona Spain Francisco live 2020 I'm John Ferrier with mykos Dave Volante with a very special guest here to wrap up Cisco live the president of Europe Middle East Africa and Russia Francisco Wendy Mars cube alumni great to see you thanks for coming on to kind of put a bookend to the show here thanks for joining us right there it's absolutely great to be here thank you so what a transformation as Cisco's business model of continues to evolve we've been saying brick by brick we still think is a big move coming I think there's more action I can sense the walls talking to us like let's just go live in the US and more technical announcements in the next 24 months you can see you can see where it's going it's cloud its apps yeah its policy based program ability it's really a whole nother business model shift for you and your customers the technology shift and the business model shift so I want to get your perspective of this year opening key no you let it off talking about the philosophy of the business model but also the first presenter was not a networking guy it was an application person yeah app dynamics yep this is a shift what's going on with Cisco what's happening what's the story well you know if you look for all of the work that we're doing is but is really driven by what we see from requirements from our customers the change that's happening in the market and it is all around you know if you think digital transformation is the driver organizations now are incredibly interested in how do they capture that opportunity how do they use technology to help them but you know if you look at it really there's the three items that are so important it's the business model evolution it's actually the business operations for for organisations plus their people there are people in the communities within that those three things working together and if you look at it with you know it's so exciting with application dynamics there because if you look for us within Cisco that linkage of the application layer through into the infrastructure into the network and bringing that linkage together is the most powerful thing because that's the insight and the value our customers are looking for you know we've been talking about the in the innovation sandwich you know you got you know date in the middle and you got technology and applications underneath that's kind of what's going on here but you I'm glad you brought up the year the part about business model business operations and people in communities because during your keno you had a slide that laid out three kind of pillars yes people in communities business model and business operations there was no 800 series in there there was no product discussions this is fundamentally the big shift that business models are changing I tweeted provocatively the killer app and digital the business model because you think about it the applications are the business and what's running under the covers is the technology but it's all shifting and changing so every single vertical every single business is impacted by this it's not like a certain secular thing in the industry this is a real change can you describe how those three things are operating with that constitute think if you look from you know so thinking through those three areas if you look at the actual business model itself our business models as organizations are fundamentally changing and they're changing towards as consumers we are all much more specific about what we want we have incredible choice in the market we are more informed than ever before but also we are interested in the values of the organizations that were getting the capability from as well as the products and the services that naturally we're looking to gain so if you look in that business model itself this is about you know organizations making sure they stay ahead from a competitive standpoint about the innovation of portfolio that they're able to bring but also that they have a strong strong focus around the experience that their customer gains from an application a touch standpoint that all comes through those different channels which is at the end of the day the application then if you look as to how do you deliver that capability through the systems the tools and the processes as we all evolve our businesses you have to change the dynamic within your organization to cope with that and then of course in driving any transformation the critical success factor is your people and your culture you need your teams with you the way teams operate now is incredibly different it's no longer command and control its agile capability coming together you need that to deliver on any transformation never never mind let it be smooth you know in the execution there so it's all three together what I like about that model and I have to say we this is you know ten years to do in the cube you you see that marketing in the vendor community often leads what actually happens not surprising as we entered the last decade it was a lot of talk about cloud well it kind of was a good predictor we heard a lot about digital transformations a lot of people roll their eyes and think it's a buzzword but we really are I feel like an exiting this cloud era into the digital era it feels real and there are companies that you know get it and are leaning in there are others that maybe you're complacent I'm wondering what you're seeing in in Europe just in terms of everybody talks digital yeah be CEO wants to get it right but there is complacency there when it's a services say well I'm doing pretty well not on my watch others say hey we want to be the disruptors and not get disrupted what are you seeing in the region in terms of that sentiment I would say across the region you know there will always be verticals and industries that are slightly more advanced than others but I would say that then the bulk of conversations that I'm engaged in independence of the industry or the country in which we're having that conversation in there is a acceptance of transfer digital transformation is here it is affecting my business i if I don't disrupt I myself will be disrupted and be challenged help me so I you know I'm not disputing the end state I need guidance and support to drive the transition and a risk mythic mitigated manner and they're looking for help in that and there's actually pressure in the boardroom now around a what are we doing within within organizations within that enterprise the service right of the public said to any type of style of company there's that pressure point in the boardroom of come on we need to move it speed now the other thing about your model is technology plays a role in contribute it's not the be-all end-all but plays a role in each of those the business model of business operations and developing and nurturing communities can you add more specifics what role do you see technology in terms of advancing those three spheres so I think you know if you look at it technology is fundamental to all of those spheres in regard to the innovation the differentiation technology can bring then the key challenges one of being able to reply us in a manner where you can really see differentiation of value within the business so in then the customers organization otherwise it's just technology for the sake of technology so we see very much a movement now to this conversation of talk about the use case the use cases the way by which that innovation can be used to deliver the value to the organization and also different ways by which a company will work look at the collaboration capability that we announced earlier this week of helping to bring to life that agility look at the app D discussion of helping to link the layer of the application into the infrastructure the network's to get to root cause identification quickly and to understand where you may have a problem before you thought it actually arises and causes downtime many many ways I think the agility message has always been a technical conversation a gel methodology technology software development no problem check that's ten years ago but business agility mmm it's moving from a buzzword to reality exactly that's what you're kind of getting in here and teams how teams operate how they work you know and being able to be quick efficient stand up stand down and operate in that way you know we were kind of thinking out loud on the cube and just riffing with Fabio gory on your team on Cisco's team about clarification with Eugene Kim around just just kind of real-time what was interesting is we're like okay it's been 13 years since the iPhone and so 13 years of mobile in your territory in Europe Middle East Africa mobilities been around before the iPhone so with in more advanced data privacy much more advanced in your region so you got you out you have a region that's pretty much I think the tell signs for what's going on in North America and around the world and so you think about that you say okay how is value created how the economics changing this is really the conversation about the business model is okay if the value activities are shifting and be more agile and the economics are changing with sass if someone's not on this bandwagon it's not an in-state discussion where it's done deal yeah it's but I think also there were some other conversation which which are very prevalent here is in in the region so around trust around privacy law understanding compliance you look at data where data resides portability of that data GDP are came from Europe you know and as ban is pushed out and those conversations will continue as we go over time and if I also look at you know the dialogue that you saw so you know within World Economic Forum around sustainability that is becoming a key discussion now within government here in Spain you know from a climate standpoint and many other areas as well Dave and I've been riffing around this whole where the innovation is coming from it's coming from Europe region not so much the u.s. I mean us discuss some crazy innovations but look at blockchain us is like don't touch it pretty progressive outside United States little bit dangerous to but that's where innovation is coming from and this is really the key that we're focused on I want to get your thoughts on how do you see it going next level the next level next-gen business model what's your what's your vision so I think there'll be lots of things if we look at things like with the introduction of artificial intelligence robotics capability 5g of course you know on the horizon we have Mobile World Congress here in Barcelona in a few weeks time and if you talked about with the iPhone the smartphone of course when 4G was introduced no one knew what the use case would that would be it was the smartphone which wasn't around at that time so with 5g in the capability there that will bring again yet more change to the business model for different organizations and the capability and what we can bring to market when we think about AI privacy data ownership becomes more important some of the things you were talking about before it's interesting what you're saying John and when the the GDP are set the standard and and you see in the u.s. there are stovepipes for that standard California is going to do one every state is going to have a different center that's going to slow things down that's going to slow down progress do you see sort of an extension of a GDP are like framework of being adopted across the region and that potentially you know accelerating some of these you know sticky issues and public policy issues that can actually move the market forward I think I think the will because I think there'll be more and more you know if you look at there's this terminology of data is the new oil what do you do with data how do you actually get value from that data and make intelligent business decisions around that so you know that's critical but yet if you look for all of ours we are extremely passionate about you know where is our data used again back to trust and privacy you need compliance you need regulation you know I think this is just the beginning of how we will see that evolve you know when do I get your thoughts does Dave and I have been riffing for 10 years around the death of storage long live storage and but data needs to be stored somewhere networking is the same kind of conversation just doesn't go away in fact there's more pressure now forget the smartphone that was 13 years ago before that mobility data and video now super important driver that's putting more pressure on you guys and so hey we're networking so it's kind of like Moore's law it's like more networking more networking so video and data are now big your thoughts on video and data video but if you look at the Internet of the future you know what so if you look for all of us now we are also demanding as individuals around capability and access to that and inter vetted the future the next phase we want even more so there'll be more and more - you know requirement for speed availability that reliability of service the way by which we engage and we communicate there's some fundamentals there so continuing to to grow which is which is so so exciting for us so you talk about digital transformation that's obviously in the mind of c-level executives I got to believe security is up there as a topic what other what's the conversation like in the corner office when you go visit your customers so I think that there's a huge excitement around the opportunity realizing the value of the of the opportunity you know if you look at top of mind conversations are around security around making sure that you can make tank maintain that fantastic customer experience because if you don't the custom will go elsewhere how do you do that how do you enrich at all times and also looking at markets adjacencies you know as you go in and you talk at senior levels within within organizations independent of the industry in which they're in there are a huge amount of commonalities that we see across those of consistent problems by which organizations are trying to solve and actually one of the big questions is what's the pace of change that I should operate at and when is it too fast and when is what am I too slow and trying to balance that is exciting but also a challenge for companies so you feel like sentiment is still strong even though we're 10 years into this this bull market you know you got Briggs it you get you know China tensions with the US u.s. elections but but generally you see Tennessee sentiment still pretty strong and demand so I would say that the the excitement around technology the opportunity that is there around technology in its broadest sense is greater than ever before and I think it's on all of us to be able to help organizations to understand how they can consume I see value from us but it's you know it's fantastic science it tastes trying to get some economic indicators but really the real thing I'm trying to get you is Minh set of the CEO the corner office right now is it is it we're gonna we're gonna grow short-term by cutting or do we do are we gonna be aggressive and go after this incremental opportunity and it's probably both you're seeing a lot of automation yeah and I think if you look fundamentally for organizations it's it's that the three things helped me to make money how me to save money keep me out of trouble you know so those are the pivots they all operate with and you know depending on where an organization is in its journey whether a start-up there you know in in the in the mid or the more mature and some of the different dynamics and the markets in which they operate in as well there's all different variables you know so it's it's it's mix Wendy thanks so much for spending the time to come on the cube really appreciate great keynote folks watching if you haven't seen the keynote opening sections that's a good section the business model I think it's really right on I think that's going to be a conversation it's going to continue thanks for sharing that before we look before we leave I want to just ask you a question around what you what's going on for you here at Barcelona as the show winds down you had all your activities take us in the day of the life of what you do customer meetings what were some of those conversations take us inside inside what what goes on for you here well I'd say it's been an amazing it's been an amazing few days so it's a combination of customer conversations around some of the themes we just talked about conversations with partners and there's investor companies that we invest in a Cisco that I've been spending some time with and also you know spending time with the teams as well the DEF net zone you know is amazing we have this afternoon the closing session where we've got a fantastic external guest who's coming in it's going to be really exciting as well and then of course the party tonight and we'll be announcing the next location which I'm not gonna reveal now later on today we kind of figured it out already because that's our job and there's the break news but we're not gonna break it for you you can have that hey thank you so much for coming on really appreciate Wendy Martin expecting the Europe Middle East Africa and Russia for Cisco she's got our hand on the pulse and the future is the business model that's what's going on fundamental radical change across the board in all areas this the cue bringing you all the action here in Barcelona thanks for watching [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music]

>>Fly from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cube covering Cisco live 2020s brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back everyone cubes live coverage from Barcelona, Spain. We are here for Cisco live 20 twists to keeps coverage. I'm Chomper with myself. It goes to minimum. This has been four days of coverage. We got another day tomorrow. A lot of action around application developers and programmable infrastructure and really at the heart of this is hybrid cloud and multi-cloud, which is the future of where the enterprises are going. And really it's at the center of it is the suppliers, the cloud service providers. I say Cisco power. They've got two great guests and cube alumni. David cope, senior director of cloud business development, Cisco, Benjamin MacLean, EMIA chief product officer for three D S outscale. Guys, welcome back. Good to see you again. Thanks for coming. Benjamin. We talked to two years ago here I think was what the early days when we started publicly riffing on the notion of cloud service providers going to start to be really more instrumental in how enterprises will deploy and manage workloads and applications. So we were right, it turns out we were right. We >>went actually even even further than that is. Um, so now I'll scale is not only a primary care provider or now we also have a, an on prem solution. So you can uh, we can deploy all stacks, uh, on your prem with hardware, software and services. And we actually, uh, start building locally compliance, uh, stacks. So in France we actually got the second class certification for the French government and we are also working for the ITI FedRAMP certification for the U S >>great. Take a minute to give an update of the busy. You just had an acquisition, you're now part of a different company. Explain that and the relationship to the bigger company. >>So, um, I'll scale was actually founded in 2010 and we actually started to provide to be called services starting 2012, something like this. And a decile system was always one of the big customers. Um, they were actually transforming themselves from being a software vendor to a software as a service company, which is a huge move for a company this size. And we are actually supporting them going this direction and they felt that they needed, uh, to intern to have an internal support, uh, phone call services, uh, within the group so that we actually part of the family now. >>Well congratulations. But I think this trust of the larger trend, David, we talked about how cloud service right are going to be merged emerging as more of a focal point. The global system integrators are already doing it. This is a tell sign for how enterprises, large enterprises, they start to be thinking they need people to support them with multiple, their own stacks, their own in house teams supporting these new workloads. What's your thoughts on, >>well, I mean I think these guys are a great example of sort of the evolution we've seen with the cloud. I think came out of beta in 2008 or something like that. And, and since then we've seen cloud go through sort of skepticism, >>experimentation, debate about private versus public. But today I think both desires and also tools have enabled companies to start focusing just on their business and realize now they can place and manage workloads wherever their business priorities drive them, not it constraints. And so you can get the best of both worlds. You can support this agility and yeah, you can also start to manage governance and policies across these very different private and public environments. Benjamin, bring us a little bit inside your really hybrid solution. You're helping with customers. Uh, we've had many years looking at this. I've seen some providers say, Oh, we're going to help put a stack on your environment, but if you let it touch it, Oh well I need to adjust something or make a change. And then you know, if you're helping manage it, Oh wait, you're, you're out of compliance. You've done something different from an application standpoint. We have seen, I, I might have my monolith in my data center, I have microservices in the public cloud or you know, in your service provider there. It makes sense to do that. But help us understand kind of what goes where, who manages what and what's really happening for your customers. So, >>uh, we try to come in with a very simple approach where basically the perimeter of responsibility is the same everywhere you go. So whether you're on prem or into the cloud, you should see your focus on your application and your area of expertise as a company and being able to deliver to your customers. And um, so we just want to make sure that's focused for our customers. Very easy to say, okay, it's not because I'm on prem, then I need to do it jobs. I'm still need to manage the application. And um, since Oscar is actually providing both public cloud and on premise solution, we want to provide it with as much as solution isolation as possible. And that's one of the reasons why else get actually, uh, was integrated within Cisco cloud center. So we can actually live rate, uh, the governance across the board, the, the immersion 80 of of deploy, application, deployment, whatever, wherever you are. And it's exactly the same thing for the customer. You don't have to sacrifice anything because you're on frame or you want it to be out. >>What specifically about Cisco is driving that? Because you said a couple of things that caught my attention. One is you're providing a platform so the apps could work anywhere. I heard you kind of tease that that is that one of the things that Cisco is bringing to the table. What's the, what's the Cisco value there? >>For me it's um, we, I mean it's been like 40 years that this goes around and they always, uh, worked, uh, to actually bring bridges between platforms, between solutions, between companies. And I feel that the, exactly why we're actually using the solution. So it's different for each. It's not a network bridge for this one, it's more an application ratio. Uh, I would say a pipeline application bridge and that's where we actually find the value for us. Your >>thoughts real quick, go off on tangent a little bit on the operating model of cloud, cause we were riffing on this two years ago. This is now the big conversation here. Hybrid really is all about having that operating model, whether it's on public or on premises. How do you guys serving your customers when they have an app? Hey I got a dad, I just want to build my app. I don't care where it is and I have my operation gotta be seamless across. How are you implementing that? >>To be honest, I don't feel like it's like it's a, we are still, we are not there yet. I feel companies still struggle to actually uh, build an app, being able to deploy whatever the tenants they choose, whether it's going to be a to be cloud provider or an American one. They under your plan one or even a Chinese one now. And uh, all on trend. And since the stacks are always different, they always have to pay for the difference within this platform on their side. And I feel like the tools are actually helping these companies. So it's not actually the cloud providers making the Fort is usually the tools and the ecosystem around these providers are actually providing more tools and more solutions. So it's easier for the companies that actually manage the application at the end. >>David, maybe you can help us dig in a little bit to the management and the software that Cisco's uh, working on and delivering here to help with these type of environments. You know, the way I look at the world is is businesses have applications, applications run on infrastructure in the state of the industry today is you should no longer care about where that application is running. It's just infrastructure. It's in my data center. It's in somebody else's data center called the cloud. So the state of the business today is how do I create sort of a declarative model which describes my application independent of having to know the nuances of each of the end points and then be able to manage the entire life cycle from optimizing cost, performance placement and then the ongoing policy based governance. And for us, that management platform is cloud center, which is a cloud management platform. There's others in the industry that take a similar approach. But that really is where this blurring of data centers and clouds supporting any apps, uh, is, is occurring because your, what's some of the workloads that you guys work on? Give some anecdotal feedback on some of the day to day things you're working on. Is it on premise driving the action? Is that the app developers, your customers, but you have, you're serving multiple, a big company, right? >>Yeah. Um, from what I seen is, uh, we have a lot of traction on OnPrem solution because historically it's been, uh, usual stacks, which are usually lack of usability for the customers. Um, they are now used to use it to the public cloud, the features, the capabilities, the agility, and then where you'll go by, you're going back on frame. You, you, you feel like you're traveling time, bike and backwards. And that's, that's usually an issue, uh, with our solution where we don't change the level of responsibility of the customer. So it doesn't have to have a data center, people, operation people. It's still the same guys that were actually working into the public out and they are going to operate exactly the same way on prem. So that's a huge premise for this for these companies right now. Yeah. Yeah. Actually. Great. So we deployed a one like the beginning of this year to last year and it's gonna continue to grow. Uh, especially if you're a dental assistant company, uh, as a, >>I forgot to ask you as an expert then Nirvana, the Holy grail or whatever word we want to use is to have applications just completely have programmable infrastructure. That's the dev ops, you know, Holy grail, which we're getting there. Yeah. Where are we in your mind, how far do we have to go to get the app developers just coding away in the progress of innovation? What's your thoughts on where the industry is and what we're dealing with here? >>I think you can already do it. If you sacrifice a part of your freedom or your part or part of your possibility. We can find tools that actually working pretty well with each other. But once you're in, you're going to be in for at once. The issue is more always going to become a more standardized way to actually work for this company. And that means also for us providers to provide kind of assemble level of interface and the same which works. So the company, and I mean so apart from code center, like the application actually being able to work across infrastructure platforms, whatever they are, I be cloud center for the cross platform work. Yeah. So customer is one of these tools that actually kind of, uh, leverage different platforms and don't really care. And as a user, you don't really care all the difference you can deploy, whether it's going to be on VMware, on to the cloud, and you don't expect the same level of capability in terms of infrastructure. But still you still deploy exactly the same pipelines and some workloads exactly the same way. >>What do I have to think about it? Whether it's, whether it's so managing all of its operating divisions or whether it's it ops trying to manage its developers is there's this sort of natural, some usually unspoken tension where it ops wants to support the agility that developers are looking for in business units are looking for, but at the same time it ops is torn because they have to ensure governance and security and all that. So today I think with these new platforms you do a little bit of judo frankly, is you are allowed developers or operating units to use the environment or tools of choice, but you still have these new cloud management platforms that allow you to apply and enforce governance. And those policies can either be exposed to them or it can be hidden from them. You get to choose, well that's the choice is key in the policy. >>It means automation. Yes, the policies nailed down the business logic. Get automation exactly as the Holy wishes even better, which I'm psyched to see more of that. But I got to ask you guys, I stopped at your Cisco booth, your multi-cloud with this. By the way, I love the demos over there. You get all the Cisco servers, provide everything else, but you guys got a multi cloud section. Of course there's a lot of Kubernetes being discussed there. So Benjamin, I got to get your take on this because Stu and I always joke, the joke is just broke containers around it. You can do anything. You're dealing with a lot of on premises legacy and enterprise stuff Coubernetties and as service meshes come down the pike and micro services, that seems to be really a great way to deal with it. How were you looking at that? What's your vision and how, what are some of the practitioner tools that are out there? What's your view on that? >>For me, the appeal of communities for, for the customers is, uh, less, uh, a way to work than the fact that it's actually is, is a standout. So we are talking about the fact that wherever you are, you're always a, I think different APA calls a different way to educate yourself differently. Policy management. And I feel that the appeal of communities is that you can use it over any cloud platform in the world. And he's always failed to send me, they always behave the same way and he's kind of the promise. The same is that you can get with containers, but you get it on the orchestration layer of these containers. Uh, and I feel that that's why people are quite rushing into it because they feel that if it doesn't work there, then it might work somewhere else. >>So are you dealing with some of these enterprise applications? What do you guys do? >>Um, so the interest for se, so we just, we provide, uh, the control plane or the master nodes and usually customers see or manage the resources or the, the resource pool, uh, on which they're going to deploy containers in whatever we S we still manage mostly VMs and block storage. So the, the basic breaks of any, uh, infrastructure as a service provider and um, and the customers start from there and actually build on the application and they can even reuse things that have been done somewhere else. Uh, in any other cloud platform. >>David, talk about the Cisco vision here because I think you guys have been seeing this now. I used the multi-cloud is kind of a future state that's out. See everyone has multicloud now, but hybrid is where the action is and this by getting this common operating model with you've got these Kubernetes trends and things coming down the pipe with micro services that really is impacting the momentum. How do you guys see that? What's your position on this? >> I think you're right. I mean when you look at Kubernetes specifically, I think it's obviously maturing from just developer centric activities now into production. Most Kubernetes today, it has been deployed on prem or in the cloud, but now that's the foundation that's going to enable the future of hybrid workloads where I can start again. Blurring the boundaries between data centers and clouds develop on the cloud, prod on prem, develop on prem, access to service on the cloud. >>So we're just starting to see sort of these hybrid Coobernetti's workflows. And Cisco has a container platform that's native Kubernetes but we've also, it runs on prem but it's also optimized to work with public clouds that support Kubernetes. And so it really becomes a single environment, a pool of resources for the application. >> I think it sets the table nicely for the app developers, the future because end of the day students just develop your app and yeah, things go and happen. Benjamin, final question while you're here. I want to get your expert opinion on this because I want to kind of go back to our 2018 and modernized our chat a little bit around cloud service providers because I think this is still going to be the hottest area because I think you are, you're a unique, you got acquired and you're still servicing a big customer base, but you're now part of the mother I guess. Um, which is good. You got a lot of work to do, but cloud service providers will still serve as a lot of customers and this is going to be a fast growing market. What's your advice for other cloud service providers out there that are really trying to understand how do I build my infrastructure? How do I deal with the clouds? Do I just go all in on one, do I build my own? How do I serve as the on premises? What's your advice? >>I think like if your company, a main area of expertise is not it, you shouldn't actually invest, uh, in house. Its, I think nowadays we, you, we have like, and I'm not talking only about our scale, but we have like a lot of different solution, a lot of, uh, technological partners such as Cisco and NetApp, uh, that have a great solution that actually proven, uh, there is solution as ourselves. So at scale. Um, so I feel like anything that you do try to be or from the ground, uh, would have a huge advantage in terms of, of time of technology. Um, and again, for any other cloud provider. I think also we're going to see kind of the separation we're talking about in 2018 is still going to continue to exist and I think it's going to even increase where we're going to see, um, local compliance or great regulation. I actually for the past two years, uh, dramatically increased in terms of of strengths and numbers and uh, and that, and I feel like the approach of Muti local cloud as we've been pushing for the past 10 years within our scale, it makes even more sense. >>Do you see specialty clouds emerging fast or are building on say Amazon, Google or other clouds or what do you see? >>Yeah, to be honest, I even think that the, the big three in the U S are even starting to find their own place, which is not the same. And I feel we're going to see the same thing with the Chinese and reopen actors as well. >>Awesome. Benjamin's great to have you on. Great to have your insight from the field. Appreciate David. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate that insight from Cisco as well. It's the cube coverage day. Three of our four days of coverage on shofar is do men and men stay with us for more coverage from Barcelona after this short break?

>>Fly from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cube covering Cisco live 2020s brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >>Hi everyone. Welcome back to the QS live coverage here in Barcelona, Spain for Cisco live 2020 I'm John. My coasts do many minutes. We are in the dev net. Similar all the action is the accused third year covering where dev net has been evolving into the centerpiece of Cisco strategy. And all the sessions are here. We've got a great guest. Make D as product marketing for Cisco with umbrella is a takeover going on here. The Devin, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. So tell us about umbrella, cause that's a new brand open DNS kind of confer. What's the story with umbrella? Give us the update. >>Sure. So umbrella was first really developed an introduced in the market in 2012 under the open DNS company. We were acquired by Cisco in 2015 and rebranded it to Cisco umbrella. So we've taken the same great product that we've had for years and just continued to develop and add to it. >>And what's the main features now as that same product? Has it been integrated in, cause everything's becoming API base here. We're seeing that. What's the tweak? Is it security? What's the main linkage with the Cisco? >>Yeah, so um, umbrella really started off, uh, providing DNS layer security. So it was often an added layer or foundational layer that customers would use to reduce the amount of malware, make sure that their users were protected anywhere that they were connecting to the internet. And so we've taken that. It's, it's always been developed as an open platform and we've continued to add additional API APIs to it and a lot of additional security features too. So beyond just DNS, we now have a full secure web gateway cloud delivered firewall, uh, Cosby capabilities. So there's been a lot of new capabilities that we've built into the product. >>Can you bring us inside a little bit? We've been in the dev net zone for three years, as John said, got to dev net, create that API economy is something that is so important and that's what so many people, I mean we've seen just huge crowds all week. Help us understand how those APIs fit into Cisco and Cisco umbrella. >>Sure. So when you look at, there's a number of API APIs that we've built into umbrella. So to give you some examples, we have a, uh, a device network device API to make it easy to actually integrate different network devices that you have to umbrella. So how do you get that traffic very easily from any device to our cloud platform? So that's one example. Uh, we've rebuilt a lot of integrations but that allows you to, to help build any additional integrations that you want. Um, we have a reporting API that helps you to, you know, automate some of the, the reporting, send it and integrate it with systems that you have. Um, and then another example, even with, uh, all of the intelligence behind umbrella, we make it available through our investigate API. So we see a lot of organizations use that to enrich their Sam or threat intelligence platform. >>So being able to take all of the data that you have within umbrella and make sure that it can be integrated in the right ways. >> Any new features you guys announcing an umbrella that we should know about here this week? >> Yes. One of the big ones that we've I've been talking about at our booth and in some of the sessions is with any connect, so any connect has always been really big for a lot of Cisco customers to protect roaming users and we've had the ability to, I enable a DNS module as part of that, so that enables them to, even when users are off the VPN, their VPN isn't even turned on. They're still getting protection from umbrella and we've taken that and we've also enabled them to leverage our security gateway functionality when users are roaming as well. So that's for the use cases. >>They're on a VPN, they're doing their thing, they go to a coffee shop or go somewhere else or they're, they're moving around. Exactly. And they might not be actually connected to the VPN, so their traffic isn't actually being protected, so they might be connecting directly to the internet. That's where when they have umbrella enabled there, they can still get the right protection for those users. May talk about the dynamics going on with, with injecting hacks in DNS, because this has always been kind of a, you're always been people but always been chasing this because you are rails, they run the internet, we know some URLs could look like PayPal or this or the other bank. And so it becomes kind of a, your URL, DNS management challenge. This is something that's been fundamental for security. What's, what are some of the things that are going on that people should pay attention to? >>Sure. So I think that there's, there's a few different aspects of that that we're really delivering on today. So first of all, when it comes to just, uh, people, uh, trying to get you to click on a link that looks like PayPal, but it's actually not. Um, so there's a number of different methods that we're using in the product to detect that. So one of the things is, is we'll look at, uh, the way that the domain is actually written. A lot of times you can see some, uh, we, we look at, you know, the, the structure of the wording. And sometimes you can see little, uh, little characters or letters or numbers that are off and we can detect that that's happening. But then we also look at the infrastructure beyond behind the domain. So we look at where is that IP, uh, where is that domain actually hosted? Right? So what's the IP address? What other activity do we see happening on that IP address? Cause you can really learn a lot, right? We saw a, a, a, a PayPal, uh, domain that was supposedly a UK PayPal domain, but it was actually hosted on a Bulletproof hosting site, which no legitimate PayPal account would be or domain would be hosted on. So things like that that we're able to detect. >>Yeah. So make us this way. I saw something talked about online puny code. Is this, what we're talking about here is that there's a different topic, >>a little bit different cause that, but yeah, there, there's also, yeah, they could be embedded within puny code, things like that. But this is just some of our fundamental, what we look at when we're determining if a domain is malicious or not. >>Okay. Could you walk us through a little bit, the demos going on? We've got the takeover going on right now. What, what's the umbrella presence here in the dev net zone and throughout Cisco live? >>Yeah, so there's, there's a lot of different areas that we are. So we have a latch of Verna. Uh, the cafe. Uh, we have all of our demo stations. We have theater presentations pretty much running every 15 minutes. So you can learn more on a number of different topics. Uh, we have the dev net takeover, we have a number of breakout sessions that are happening. Um, so there's a lot of activity happening around Cisco live. >>Well the, Cisco's got a huge technical crowd here. Obviously they're their network geeks. They all know DNS. What are some of the conversations you guys are having? What are some of the cool things that are cause that's not know about programming and they getting into different formats? How is the DNS fitting into that? I've saw some cool demos. What are some of the cool tech conversations? >>Yeah, I think, I think a lot of times it's still, um, we're seeing more of a, a an uptake in people understanding that DNS can be used to actually deliver security as well. So I think, you know, those are some of the, the conversations still educating people about how they can add additional layers of security to their environment and DNS being really one of them. Um, I think what we're also seeing is just because with umbrella we're going beyond just DNS and really taking multiple security services, bringing them into a single cloud platform. And that's a lot of the conversation that we're having and that's where you're seeing the market going. So organizations starting to look at how does that fit into their environment, how can they start to architect their network differently for the future and, and how to wrap security in there. So a lot of the conversations we're having are around that. >>It's interesting the whole dynamic internet conversation kids interesting. Because DNS is, you got to resolve, you got named servers, get your resolution to the, to the destination URL and you load the page or app. As you start getting into more of the dynamic situations, the software is programming it. So it's interesting to see how DNS is evolves. You guys are leading the forefront on that. What's your view on that? What do you, how do you guys see that evolving as you got ACI intent based networking app dynamics over the top kind of programming down as DNS fit into all that? How does that, how does that all work? >>Definitely I think, I think DNS continues to be a, you know, a foundational part of how the internet works. And I, I don't see that really changing. I think, you know, some of the things that we've been, or even the different ways that you see attackers leveraging DNS, uh, you're seeing DNS tunneling for example, being one of the kind of, uh, I wouldn't say newer, but it's one of the types of techniques that nation States are using at times when they're actually embedding, you know, data to, into DNS to exfiltrate it. So, you know, things like that we're seeing, uh, come into place of trying to use DNS in, in different ways from the attack side. Yeah. But I think, you know, when you look at the overall, you know, network and, and all of that, it is a really important and kind of core part of this, >>it's interesting is that the international thing too is you submitted your hosting. A lot of these hosting sites are outside of North America, outside of Europe. They're in these countries where it's suspect, you know, and some of the foreign characters sets get interesting cause that's not ASCII, it's Unicode or you've got all kinds of things going on. So it's a complex not that easy is it? >>No, we have a lot of very, very smart people, doctors working on the, uh, the backend on the, on the engineering side to really look at that. And you know, one of the things that we tried to do, even from the beginning was take a different approach to security where we're not just looking strictly at the file hash or just the basic information, but seeing how can you take data science principles and apply them to use security in new ways to uncover attacks even before they launch. >>I gotta say one of the sessions I was walking around the hall, the couple of the main kind of clusters of people was obviously the big panoramic WebEx room was pretty popular. It looks pretty cool, but the IOT security section was packed. As you hit more devices out there, they're just internet addresses too. And there you've got destination, you got URLs over DNS there too. So you have now that edge piece that's a big security perimeter. I mean, and security surface area, I should say. That's popular. People are interested in this. >>Yes. And that's, I mean, and that's one of the big use cases that we've even seen with umbrella is you have hospitals who have all of these IOT devices and you know that are in their patients and, and it's really scary to think about where they could be connecting on the internet. And that's one of the things that we've seen with umbrella is because we're providing some of that security at the DNS layer, you don't need to have an agent or something on those devices when they're on the network. It's protected by umbrella. So that is one of the use cases that we see. >>I got to ask you, because you came from the acquisition open DNS, I know David, the founder of donut when he started. Great company, great success, congratulations to the whole team there. As you guys come into Cisco, what's it like, because startups are, you know, you're hungry, you grow in and then you get in here, it's almost an a waste of tech. He got new divisions. What's it been like at Cisco with the open DNS now? Umbrella brand, same product with some tweaks. What's it like? >>No, I mean it's been amazing. >>I mean I'm still here, uh, you know, almost five years later. Um, and I think one of the things that's been really exciting is, is the fact that we have been able to leverage a lot of the Cisco technology, right? We've embedded, you know, amp technology, threat grid technology, things that, that ultimately, because we're, you know, sharing those resources and, and embedding them, it's going to make the products more secure. It's going to allow us to share more information between products. And I think just the, you know, the investment, I think Cisco sees where the future is going and you know, how important the cloud is, you know, not only from just a, the way that businesses work, but from the security perspective. So there's been a lot of investment in it. Awesome. Well thanks for coming on sharing your insight. I got to ask you kind of an industry question because you've been on, again the startup now Cisco, most normal people like DNS, I know what a URL is, but they know security. So when they asked you a lot, they hae all this fake news, all this malware, spear fishing. I mean the average consumer, they get the security thing. When they asked you what's going on, what, what do you say to them? How do you explain what you do and your vision of how you see the world evolving? >>Sure. I think, I think for a lot of people, I mean I've, I've been in security now for for a while when I started it was really, it was still all the compliance conversation and you were still educating a lot of people on security. But now my grandma knows about it and you know, she'll ask me questions. So I think, you know, it has become so much more mainstream and you know when I, in in simplest terms, I just talked to people about the fact that we are making sure that wherever users are connecting to the internet, they're doing it securely. You know, no matter what application they're trying to access, we can help secure that. And so that's kind of the, >>and be careful what you click on. It would be, you know, the emails you get. Well you don't know what's in there exactly. Well thanks for come on. Great. Great to have you on. Thanks for the insight. Cisco umbrella. It's taking over dev net dev net zone is packed. It just gets bigger every year and this is where people are learning is very community driven. A lot of, a lot of education, a lot of great content. You're starting out or you're more experienced software certifications all here inside the cube coverage of Barcelona. We'll be right back after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE! Covering Cisco Live 2020. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCUBE's live coverage of Cisco Live 2020, here in Barcelona. Our third year of the show, over 17,000 in attendance between the Cisco people, their large partner ecosystem, and the customers, I'm Stu Miniman, my cohost for this segment is Dave Vellante. John Furrier's scouring the show for all of the news at the event, and joining us, we have two first time guests on the program, first, sitting to my left is Patrick Smith, who is the field CTO for EMEA with Pure Storage. Sitting to his left is Eric Greffier, who is the managing director of EMEAR specialists with Cisco, so you have a slightly larger region than Patrick does, gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >> Patrick: Great to be here. >> All right, so, we know this show, we were talking that broad ecosystem, and of course Cisco in the data center group has very strong storage partnerships, highlighted by their converged infrastructure stacks. I wrote my research many many years ago, Cisco's brilliant job was when they entered the server market, they made sure that that fragmented storage ecosystem, they made partnerships across the board. And of course, when Pure's ascendancy with the flash era made the stack, so helping to paint those data centers orange with your Cisco partnership, so Patrick, give us the update here, 2020, what's interesting and important to know about Pure Storage and Cisco customer base? >> You know, we continue to see significant adoption of FlashStack, our converged infrastructure with Cisco. Driving just great interest and great growth, both for Pure and for Cisco with the UCS platform, and the value that the customers see in FlashStack, bringing together storage, networking and compute together with overall automation of the stack, and that really gives customers fantastic time to value. And that's what they're looking for in this day and age. >> All right, and Eric, what differentiates the partnership with Pure, versus, as you said, you do work with many of the storage companies out there. >> Well, we had a baby together, it was called FlashStack, and it was couple of years ago now, and as you said, I think the key element for us is really to have those CVDs, those Cisco Validated Designs together, and FlashStack was a great addition to our existing partnership at that time, talking about a couple of years ago. And of course, with the flash technology of Pure, we've seen the demand that we'd say going and going, and it has been amazing, amazing trajectory together. >> But talk a little bit more about the CVDs, the different use cases that you're seeing. You don't have to go through all 20, but maybe pick a couple of your favorite children. >> Well, just to make sure that people understand what CVD means, it's Cisco Validated Design, and this is kind of an outcome in the form of a document, which is available for customers and partners, which is the outcome of the partnership from R&D to R&D, which is just telling customers and partners what they need to order and have in it to fit all of this together for a specific business outcome. And the reason why we have multiple CVDs, is we have one CVD per use case. So the more use cases we have together, the more the CVD's precise, and you just have to follow the CVD design principles. Of course, the later swarms, and maybe Patrick can say a word, but we've been of course doing things regarding analytics and AI, because this is a big demand right now, so maybe Patrick, you want to say a word on this. >> Yeah, you guys were first with the AI and bringing AI and storage together with your partnership with Nvidia, so maybe double down on that. >> The FlashBlade was our move into building a storage platform for AI and model analytics, and we've seen tremendous success with that in lots of different verticals. And so with Cisco we launched FlashStack for AI, which brings together FlashBlade networking, and Cisco's fantastic compute platform with capability for considerable scale of Nvidia GPUs. So an in-a-box capability to really deliver fast time to market solutions for the growing world of analytics and modern AI, people want quick insight into the vast amounts of data we have, and so FlashStack for AI is really important for us being able to deliver as part of the Cisco ecosystem, and provide customers with a platform for success. >> What's happening with modernization, generally, but specifically in Europe, obviously Cisco, long history in Europe, Pure, you've got a presence here, good presence, but obviously much newer. Larger proportion, far larger proportion is in North America, so it's a real opportunity for you guys. What are you seeing in terms of modernization of infrastructure, and apps in the European community? >> Modernization I think is particularly important, and it's more and more seen under the guise of digital transformation, because investing in infrastructure just doesn't get the credit that sometimes it deserves. But the big push there is really all around simpler infrastructure, easier management, and the push for automation. Organizations don't want to have large infrastructure support teams who are either installing or managing in a heavy touch way, their environments, and so the push towards automation, not just at the infrastructure layer, but all the way up the stack, is really key. And you know, we were talking earlier, behind us we have the DevNet sessions here, all about how customers of Cisco and by correlation Pure, can really optimize the management to their environment, use technology like Intersight, like Ansible and others, to really minimize the overhead of managing technology, deliver services faster to customers and be more agile, in this always-on world that we live in, there's no time to really add a human to the cycle of managing infrastructure. >> I think we've been very proud over the years because this notion of converged infrastructure, which was, the promise was to simplify and modernize the data centers, before it was like, "Everything needs to get connected to anything," and coming was this notion of a pod, everything converged, "We've done the job for you, mister customer, "just think about adding some pod." This has been the promise for the last 10 years, and we've been very proud, almost to have created this market, but it wouldn't have been possible without the partnership with the storage players, and with Pure, we've been one step further in terms of simplifying things for customers. >> I love the extension you're talking about, because absolutely converged infrastructure was supposed to deliver on that simplicity, and it was, let's think of the entire rack as a unit of how we manage it, but with today's applications, with the speed of change happening in the environment, we've gone beyond human speed, and so therefore if we don't have the automation that you were talking about, we can't keep up with what the business needs to be able to do there. >> Yeah, that's what it's all about, it's the rapid rate of change. Whether it's business services, whether it's supporting developers in the developer environment, more and more our customers are becoming software development organizations, their developers are a key resource, and making them as efficient as possible is really important, so being able to quickly spin up development environments, new environments for developers, using snapshot technology, giving them the latest sets of data to test their applications on, is really central to enabling and empowering the developer. >> You know, you talk about Cisco's play and kind of creation of the converged infrastructure, Mark, and I think that's fair, by the way. Others may claim it, but I think the mantle goes to you. But there were two friction points, or headwinds, that we pointed out early in the day, the first was organizational, the servers team, the storage team, the network team didn't speak together, then the practitioner told us one day, "Look, you want to solve that problem, "put it in and watch what happens." 'Cause if you try to figure out the organization you'll never get there, and that sort of took care of itself. The other was the channel. The channel likes things separate, they can add value, they have this sort of box selling mentality, so I wonder if you could update us on what the mindset is in the channel, and how that's evolved. >> Yeah, it's a great question. I think the channel actually really likes the simplicity of a converged infrastructure to sell, it's a very simple message, and it really empowers the channel to take, to your point about organization, they have the full stack, all in one sellable item, and so they don't have to fight for the different components, it's one consistent unit that they sell as a whole, and so I think it simplifies the channel, and actually, we find that customers are actively seeking out, it's shown by our growth with FlashStack that customers are actually seeking out the channel partners who are selling FlashStack. >> Yeah, and do you think the channel realizes, "Wow, we really do have to go up the stack, "add more value, do things like partner with"? >> Well for most of the partners, they were heavily specialized on storage or compute or network, so for most of them, supporting the converged infrastructure was to be able to put a foot into another market, which was an expansion for them, which was part number one. Part number two, maybe the things that we've been missing, because since the beginning we had APIs around all those platforms. I don't believe in the early days, I'm talking about five years from now, that they got, that they could really really build something upon the converged infrastructure. Now, if you go through the DevNet area here at Cisco Live, you will see that I think this is the time now for them to understand, and really build new services on top of it, so I believe the value for the channel is pretty obvious now, more than ever. >> Well yeah, it's a great point, you don't usually hear converged infrastructure and infrastructure as code in the same conversation, but the maturation of the platforms underneath are bringing things together. >> They really are, in the same way that IT organizations are freeing up more time to focus up the stack on automation and added value, the same is true of the partners. It's interesting the corollary between the two. >> So I have a question on your act two, so what got us here the last 10 years, both firms were disruptors. Cisco came in and disrupted the compute space, it was misunderstood, "Cisco getting into servers, "that'll never work!" "Well, really not getting into servers, "we're changing the game." "Ah, okay," 10 years later. Pure, all-flash, really created some havoc in the industry, injected a ton of flash into the data center, practically drove a truck through the legacy business. Okay, so very successful. What's act two for you guys, what do you envision, disruptors, are you more incrementalists, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. >> I start, Patrick. Probably for us, phase two is what you heard yesterday morning, I think Liz Anthony did a great speech regarding Cisco Intersight Workload Optimizer, sorry for the name, this is a bit long, but what it means is now we truly connect the infrastructure to the application performance, and the fact that we can place and discuss about converged infrastructure but in the context of what truly matters for customers, which is application, this is the first time ever you're going to see such amount of R&D put into bringing the two worlds together. So this is just the beginning, but I think this was probably for me yesterday one of the most important announcement ever. And by the way, Pure is coming with this announcement, so if you as a customer buy Cisco Intersight Workload Optimizer, you'll get everything you need to know about Pure and if you have to move things around the storage area, you know the tool will be doing it for you. So we are really the two of us in this announcement, so Patrick, if you want to? >> No, I mean as Eric mentioned, Intersight's important for Cisco, it's important for us, we're very proud to be early integrators as a third party into Intersight to allow that simple management, but you know, as you talk about the future, we were viewed as disruptors when we first came to market with flash array, and we consider still ourselves to be disruptors and innovators, and the amount of our revenue that we invest in innovation, in what is a really focused product portfolio, I think is showing benefits, and you've seen the announcements over the last six months or so with FlashArray//C, bringing all the benefits of flash to tier two applications, and just the interest that that has generated is huge. In the world of networking with NVMe, we have a fabric in RoCEv2, just increasing the performance for business applications that will have fantastic implications for things like SAP, time and performance-critical databases, and then what we announced with direct memory with adding SCM as a read cache onto flash array as well. Really giving customers investment protection for what they bought from us already, because they can, as you well know, Evergreen gives customers an asset that continues to appreciate in value, which is completely the opposite. >> And you're both sort of embracing that service consumption model, I mean Cisco's becoming a very large proportion of your business, you guys have announced some actual straight cloud plays, you've built an aray inside of AWS, which is pretty innovative, so. >> Yes, and as well as the cloud play with Cloud Block Store in AWS, there's Pure as a service, which takes that cloud-like consumption model and allows a customer to run it in their own data center without owning the assets, and that's really interesting, because customers have got used to the cloud-like consumption model, and paying as an OpEx rather than CapEx, and so bringing that into their own facility, and only paying for the data you have written, really does change the game in terms of how they consume and think about their storage environments. >> Patrick, we'd just love to get your viewpoint, you've been talking to a lot of customers this week, you said you've been checking out the DevNet zone, for people that didn't make it to the show here, what have they been missing, what would their peers be telling them in the hallway conversations? >> There's a huge amount as we've been talking about, there's a huge amount on automation, and actually we see it as we go into customers, the number of people we're now talking to who are developers but not developers developing business applications but developers developing code for managing infrastructure is key, and you see it all around the DevNet zone. And then, the focus on containers, I've been talking about it for a long time, and containers is so important for enterprises going forward. We have a great play in that space, and I think as we roll forward, the next three to five years, containers is just going to be the important technology that will be prevalent across enterprises large and small. >> Dave: Yeah, we agree. >> Eric and Patrick, thank you so much for giving us the update, congratulations on all the progress and definitely look forward to keeping an eye on your progress. >> Thanks very much. >> All right, Dave Vellante and I will be back with much more here from Cisco Live 2020 in Barcelona, thanks for watching theCUBE. (techno music)

>>Ply from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cube covering Cisco live 20 fly from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners >>come back to the live coverage of Q four days here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm John for a stupid cube coverage at Cisco live 2020 in Europe. Our next guest, Michael Beasley CTO of the Cisco service provider business unit. Michael, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me. It's great to see you guys again. You came on at the Cisco live show last year, 2019 in the U S obviously as a CTO of the service provider group, you're in the middle of all these really big conversations because the service providers, I've been really trying to push the envelope for generations into getting better performance, but the diversity of services that they have to start bolting onto their infrastructure. Now with all the pressure of the cloud providers, everybody's streaming these days, so all these new competition, so service parts still have a huge footprint, huge infrastructure. >>That's the story. What's going on with a service provider. They obviously do, I mean more and more service providers are deploying and running critical infrastructure for their consumer customers, their enterprise customers, and obviously as as the economy, as nations, as industries continued to digitize, that infrastructure's critical for governments, for countries and for whole economic environments. And the reality of course is that the bandwidth keeps growing more and more bandwidth is coming onto the network. We see tremendous innovation and advancements in the access layers, whether it be on the DOCSIS for cable, wifi, six obviously for wifi and for five G with regard to mobility. So the amount of bandwidth that can come on to the network keeps rising, rising exponentially. So the service providers, you know, obviously that poses a set of challenges, but also a set of opportunities as they rethink their architectures and their infrastructure to be able to deliver that bandwidth cost-effectively. >>I know cost is a huge concern for these guys because they do spend a lot of money. Stu and I were just reminiscing about how much we've been following Cisco growing up in the computer industry at our rate and we're there when Cisco was born and watch it progress over the years and now as it's on the next generation or the next gen cloud, next gen, everything. It's interesting you have the service providers say, but the one that you're in, and I would say maybe financial services have always been like the hardcore Cisco customer pushing the envelope on the gear, pushing the envelope on the technology because they have low latency requirements. You move and pack us around. Right now you're starting to add more payload with more bandwidth coming. It really kind of the fit of the bellwether. What are the big trends that they're driving now because again, they have to maintain those table stakes and still pioneer new ground. >>What are some of the things that they're doing that you see or tell signs for the future? >> I think the things that I see is first of all, a drive towards rearchitecting the network such that it's much more simple, easier to operate, more cost effective and more reliable to operate with w with new next generation technology up and down the SAC, the stack from the Silicon through the actual systems, the embedded software, the optical modules, all of the physical ingredients that go into building a next generation software defined transport network. That's really what I see our major customers aim towards. Obviously it takes time. There's an amount of challenges given that some of these customers have been running networks for century. That said the desire and the efforts to partner with us to get to that future state such that the bandwidth can be offered cost-effectively and very reliably as we're building out this, these critical infrastructures. >>I would add. The other aspect is that as these networks are getting more powerful delivering more services, there is more of a consideration for the integrity, the trustworthiness and the security of the actual networks and the actual infrastructure from the hardware through the software in Silicon that actually make the make up these networks in having technologies that can measure the trustworthiness and the fidelity both from a hardware but also from a software perspective and be able to report off of the infrastructure without the station records to verify and to drive analytics with regard to the cleanliness and the trustworthiness of this infrastructure. >>Yeah. Michael, I remember leading up to the announcement that this is gladness. December, it was, Oh here's the next gender issues generation in the internet and in my mind I was like, Oh, sounds like it's time for the next generation of routers. But what I found really interesting is, you know, what are those next generation applications that are going to drive things? You know John talks about from a history lesson, I remember going back, you know, okay, what's going to drive 10 gig? Oh, we're going from a lot of North South to the East. West virtualization wave was really kicking off inside data centers these days. You know, it's multicloud, it's cloud native application 5g of course as a drum beat in the background. Talked a little bit about some of those applications, the business impact that the surface fighters need to be able to enable in this rollout of this new technology. >>Yeah, it's a very interesting area. I've been in the industry for 30 something years, just about 30 years and I think I've never found the industry more exciting than it is today. Obviously there's that set of challenges, but there's an incredible set of opportunities as well. We have all of the applications that we know and love today are continuing to grow at exponential rates and get bigger, you know, further and further adoption. If you think you know the fact that less just slightly less than all humans on the planet are on the internet with more coming in the future at an accelerated rate and bringing more devices with them, we think that the average device per user will go for about two up to about three and a half over the next few years. So you have the current set of applications, whether it be social media, video, video streaming, they continue to grow. >>And then there is a whole new set of applications that we'll see. There's a long list. We will see which ones actually transpire. It's hard to predict, but everything from advances in gaming, artificial intelligence, AR, VR services, telemedicine, the continued digitalization of industry in particular, manufacturing, transportation, oil and gas. All of these industries opened up at the prospect for new applications that will run on top of these infrastructure that will drive exponential growth in bandwidth and also will, will require much, much better latency from the actual network infrastructure. So there are areas that we're focused on and delivering the innovation and the core building blocks to allow our customers to build these networks to offer these services. >>Well, one of the other challenges, and you've talked about these, these transitions in this step function that networking tends to do is the cost involved when you go from one generation to the next. Cisco of course, has a large optics business know major player in the industry. Talk to us a little bit about what 400 gig means today and have people should be thinking about the cost of these types of solutions. >>Yeah, it's interesting. Certainly as we've, as we've seen from each generation as the interface speeds have changed, the actual bomb, the bill of materials for the solution has changed significantly with regard to which piece account for what dollars it used to be. If you go back to the 10 gig generation, the actual networking equipment itself was the majority of the cost. That was the majority of the bomb optic modules that plugged in were a minority. Maybe the optic optic modules were 10 or 15% and the rest was actually the system. As we look to the 400 gig generation that is actually reversed the, we now have network Silicon that is so dense and so fast that eight can power a full 36 ports, a 400 gig on an actual line card. So you're plugging in 36 optical modules to bring that bandwidth to the, to the networking Silicon. >>So as a percentage of the bomb, the optical module is not much higher from a bomb perspective. It also becomes more critical technology with regard to the reliability and the cost of the whole solution. And this is why Cisco is taking a big focus on the optical module space. We've obviously continued our own organic development and we've also been quite active on the M and a front with regard to ensuring that we have the technology and the right R and D programs to be able to deliver very reliable, cost-effective optics at 400 gig and beyond. So you brought up Silicon, so I got to ask the Silicon one question we were covering at the launch in San Francisco, Chuck Robin was there, David Geckler, you had all the top dogs. They're kind of really kind of going off on the future of Silicon, but of course Silicon angle's interested in covering that because that's in our name. >>But the trend is about cloud scale and operational efficiency. And one of the things that's coming out of the cloud trend is an operating model in public cloud and on premise that is proven. That's what people are going through. That's hybrid. How were the SP service providers implementing that? Do you guys see the Silicon one being that opportunity where they can have an end to end software life cycle having operating model? Is that some of the value? So then what's the real story for us writers? So, I mean that's, that's a core aspect of our architecture and our strategy is to have a solution, a full solution that our service provider customers can consume that embodies all of those learnings and all of those operational realities that have built up in the, in the public cloud space. Certainly Silicon one is a key aspect of that with regard to being the fundamental building block from a network processing point of view being the fundamental building block that actually switches traffic that switches pockets and actually routes the traffic through the, through the infrastructure and through the transport network. >>Along with Silicon one we have our embedded software XR seven which is the control plane for that Silicon and it embodies the routing protocols, the management interfaces, analytics, traffic management, QoS services and so forth. But more and more we're augmenting that embedded software with a set of cloud services that are delivered as a SaaS to our customers. That AIDS in operations reduces their deployment efforts, their deployment costs, and also increases reliability of the whole solution. As the SaaS services are augmenting the physical infrastructure, there's less room for human error. There's less room for integration problems with between the layers in the stack. So it's a key aspect of our savagery. Okay. So let me ask you about the user experience or the application experience. So if I'm developing apps on Silicon one, is it multiple stacks? What's the stack look like? What's the, what's the developer environment look like? >>If I'm a telco or I'm a service provider, what's going on? >> So it depends on the, on the use case, what we announced last month was not only the Silicon and our own products, the Cisco 8,000 that uses that Silicon, but we also announced the offerings of Silicon one through a merchant Silicon program where you know, third parties and OEM, a large customer could actually transact with us on the Silicon alone where we're selling them the actual Silicon. In that context, the Silicon comes with a full featured software development kit that sits on top of that Silicon. You can consider that a device driver if you like an abstraction layer that then allows that third party to either use open source or to build their own network services stack on top of that SDK that can then leverage all of the power in the innovation that is in the Silicon one engine. >>Before I get to my video question because I, cause we're doing video, we care about facts but we love more bandwidth. We love more video action. How do you talk to customers that you meet with? Because we hear a lot from the community and our expert network on the cube alumni that in certain there's a lot of pretender products out there, you bolt on a Nick offload. Where is it okay to have kind of like performance enhancements, performance enhancing hardware. That sounds kind of, that didn't sound right, but performance hardware when when the system is more important. So which customer profiles want more of the Silicon one or Cisco 8,000 versus a either an enhancement product and how does the customer determine what's a fit form one may be look good on paper, low price, high performance. How do you go in and say that's pretending that's a player? >>It's interesting. I think that the fundamental root of the answer to that question is you have to look at the application stack that you're trying to deliver. If it's a homogeneous stack where the applications are infrastructure to deliver services to a third party, then what matters simply is that application and all the infrastructure underneath it. How can you deliver that most cost effectively both in terms of capital costs but also operational cost in terms of power and human operational costs with regard to running the infrastructure. If you, if you think about a heterogeneous situation, public cloud is a good example of that where the public cloud provider is responsible and bears the cost of the infrastructure layer and the customer, the customer themselves are bringing the application workloads to run on top of that infrastructure. In that heterogeneous model. Indeed there might be, you know, some valid business security and operational reasons for actually separating the infrastructure out and having a part in the infrastructure dedicated to run the application on a part of the infrastructure dedicated to the overhead of that application, whether it be virtual networking, security functions, analytics and so forth. >>So it's interesting generally with our customers, what they're looking for more than anything else is bottom line. What is the most efficient way to deliver the end result, regardless of how it's architected, regardless of how the processing is separated into different layers of compute and dedicated hardware, what's the most effective way to deliver the outcome, both in terms of capital cost and more and more operational costs. And as everything gets faster, the power draw is more and more a very dominating function with regard to the ongoing operational costs of these networks. I want to get your thoughts on a couple of trends. One is the comeback. A voice. Stu was riffing about his days were going to voice over IP. Now voice, Hey Alexa, you know there's a small, it's not a real deep bandwidth heavy application, so get great voices coming back that fits a service providers. >>But video is growing really fast. So video is putting a lot of pressure on service providers. What's the state of the art there? Can you make a comment on how you see that evolving? What are they doing and what are some best practices and what are people doing? Yeah, I mean you're exactly right. Video in particular over the top video streaming video, but broadly video at all forms continues to grow at exponential levels. Our analysis, if you look at the Cisco VNI study by 2022 we predict that more than 80% of all internet traffic is actually going to be video. And along with its growth, unfortunately the value per bit goes down because especially as you get higher definition videos in particular, the value per bid to the service provider to the, to the entity bearing the transport cost of the video is actually going down. >>So what that drives our customers to do is first of all provision very high bandwidth networks but also optimize the most cost effective way to deliver that video at very high quality to their end users. I would say there's a few things that are top of mind in achieving that. The first is distributing out the network in particular, distributing out, peering into the Metro areas of the network and no longer having Piering dedicated only at the far side of the backbone when peering is done in the Metro. That traffic is literally on the network for less kilometers. So that helps. I would also say the deployment of edge compute caching and CDN services in the Metro really helps in delivering video. We just got a great tutorial on video architecture in the major highways of the pipes Metro appearing. So changing the dynamics of peering relationships, traffic routes, but ultimately making an efficient. >>Exactly. Well Michael, great to have you on. I know you've got mobile world Congress coming up in February. I always a big show, um, spill some of the announcements for us. I'd love to, but I thought I would be not popular with my bosses by now. Just just teasing you. I know you've got some good stuff on. We're waiting to hear them. We haven't heard anything, but we're getting some rumblings as always. Big announcements for you guys. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on. Thank you so much. I look forward to it. Great insights here on the cube, on the service provider market, the needs, what's going on in the network, and really ultimately video's changing and also the architecture is changing and this is putting more pressure. Again, more bandwidth, more things are happening. This is the Cisco powered cube here in Barcelona. I'm Gianforte Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: Live from Barcelona Spain, it's theCUBE! Covering Cisco Live 2020, brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCUBE's live coverage of Cisco Live 2020 here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman, my cohost for this segment is Dave Vellante, John Furrier is also in the house. We're doing about three and a half days, wall-to-wall coverage. The surface area that we are covering here is rather broad and I use that term, my guest is laughing, Vikas Butaney, who is the Vice President of IoT, of course. Extending the network to the edge, to the devices, and beyond with Cisco. Thank you so much for joining us. >> It's great to be here. >> All right, the IoT thing. I've worked with Cisco my entire career, I've watched through the fog computing era for a couple of years. Edge of course, one of the hottest conversations, something that I bought up in many of the conversations, the across the portfolio but Liz Centoni was up on the main stage for the day one keynote talking a lot about IoT and IT and OT and your customers of the like. So let's start there, what's new, and how does IoT fit into the overall Cisco Story? >> Absolutely. So as Liz was on the main stage and David talked about the cross domain and multi-domain architecture; Now, IoT and our operational environment is one of the key domains within that environment. And what Liz announce yesterday are two pieces of news that we are releasing at Cisco Live. First of them is an IoT security architecture which ties together the capabilities with cyber vision and then integrates it within the rest of our IT security portfolio and the second part that I'm also excited to talk about is Edge Intelligence. It's about how we are helping our customers extract the data at the edge, then deploy and move it to wherever the applications are in the multicloud environment. >> You know, we definitely want to dig into those pieces, but IoT is such a diverse solution set so it's often helpful to talk about specific industries, any customer examples so what can you share with us there to help illuminate where Cisco's helping the customers love the security angles and edge? >> That's right. Just a level set, when we think about industrial IoT we're really talking about the heavier industries, plant environments for a manufacturing company. We're thinking about roadways for a public sector customer. We're thinking the grid for utility environments. We're thinking refineries and oil extraction upstream environments, right. So this is the kind of spectrum in which we are working in, where customers have real businesses, real assets where the operations is the heart of the enterprise that they are running. And the technology can really be a revolutionary change for them to help them connect and then extract the data and then make sense of the data to improve their business practice so industrial IoT, whether you're a roadway in Austria like Asfinag, you're a utility in Germany like NRG, or EDF in France as an example. Enel in turn in Italy, all of these industries and all of these customers are using industrial IoT technologies in running their businesses better today. >> Where are we in terms of that critical infrastructure being both connected and instrumented? Where are we on the adoption curve? >> Sure, look and many of these industries we have talked about SCADA systems, right, that have been here for thirty plus years for our customers and most of those is really a one-way flow of information, right. And typically customers stood up separate side load networks which weren't really connected to the rest of the enterprise so, Rockwell has a saying from the shop floor to the top floor, right like how the digital enterprise where all of these environments are coming together is where customers are. Critical infrastructure, as you said, in this day and age with security and other kind of threats, customers are a little hesitant about how they connect it all together. But Cisco is working with these customers and helping them think through the benefits they can get but also make sure, from a cyber security point of view, that you're helping protect assets, manage these environments because you can't just arbitrarily connect them because IT tool sets just are not ready to manage these environments. >> I love that all the examples you gave were European, of course, being here in Europe. I'm curious, there's some technologies where North America might take the lead or Asia might take the lead. Is IoT relatively distributed? Is Europe kind of on-par or with the rest of the world when it comes to general adoption? >> What we have found in Europe, because of many countries like Germany leading in the renewable energy effort, and the climate is a big focus here. Data privacy and concerns around data sharing are much more top-of-mind in Europe, so we find those kind of use cases getting adopted much much faster. In Germany, as an example, NRG which is one of our customers, and they were here with us last year at Cisco live and we launched a capability with them. They are trying to manage the real time flow of energy in their grid environment, such that make sure there are no outages, no brownouts in these environments. So utilities and customers like that across Europe are adopting technology faster. Manufacturing, as always, is a leading use case. There we see some of the automotives in US are leading a little bit more in getting environments connected to their environment but overall, IoT is a global market. We work, we have over 70,000 enterprise IoT customers today at Cisco so we are fortunate to be able to serve these customers on a global basis across the range of industries I talked about earlier. >> In a lot of respects too, I would say the US is behind, right, when you look at public policy from a federal standpoint, the US doesn't really have a digital strategy from an overall perspective whereas certainly India does and countries in Europe. You look at the railway systems in Europe. >> Vikas: Much more advanced, yeah. >> Beautiful and shiny and advanced. So I would say the US has a little bit of work to do here, in my perspective. >> That's right, in India Prime Minister Modi started the effort around One Hundred Smart Cities, right, and Cisco is working with many of those smart cities with our Cisco Kinetic for Cities to kind of create, connect all of the sensor networks. Video surveillance, safety, environmental sensors, managing the flow of that data and digitizing those environments, right, and in Europe we've been working in France, Germany, Italy, UK. I think we are seeing much more adoption in these specific industries but it's a global market and again, like I said, 70,000 customers, we get to see quite a bit of the landscape around the globe. >> What should we know about the architecture? Can you give us kind of a high-level summary? What are the basics? >> Sure, so in the comprehensive IoT security architecture we released this week, it really starts with, you have to be able to identify the devices, right. In IT environments, you know, to your laptop and to your PC, they have been managed by MDM technologies for years but in the industrial environment I might have a programmable logic controller that I deployed 15 years ago. It's not ready for modern capabilities so what you really have to start with is identifying all of these assets in the communication baselines that are happening there, that's step one. Step number two is really, now that I know that this is a PLC or that's a controller, I need to come up with a policy, a security policy which says this cell in a plant environment can only talk to the other cell but doesn't need to talk to a paint zone. So I'll give you an example in automotive, if I'm welding a car, I'm building a car, the welding robots need to be communicating with each other. There's no real reason that the welding robot needs to talk to the paint shop, as an example. So you can come up with a set of policies like that to keep these environments separate because if you don't, then if there is one infection, one malware, one security, then it just traverses your whole factory. And we know customers in Europe that their networks have gone down and they've impacted 150 to 200 million dollars of downtime impact. >> Well we had a real world use case 10 years ago or so with Stuxnet with Siemens PLC and boom it went all over the world, I mean it was amazing. >> Exactly right, so again back to identification then I create the policy, then I implement the policy within our switching or a firewall network but you're never done so you have to keep monitoring on a real time basis as the landscape changes. What's happening, how do I keep up with it? And that's where things like anomaly detection are super important, right, so those are the four steps off the architecture that I want to talk about. >> So it sounds like something like cyber security is both a threat and an opportunity of bringing together IT and OT. Bring us inside a little bit those dynamics, we know it's one of the bigger challenges in the IoT space. >> Yeah, I mean I think, look, both parties whether I'm an operational person or an IT person, both of us, both audiences have their own care-abouts. If I'm a plant manager, I'm measured on number of units I'm producing, the quality, the reliability of my products. If I'm in IT I really am measured on downtime of the network or the cyber security threat. There aren't really common measurable capabilities but cyber and security, it kind of brings both the parties together. So when we use our cyber vision product, we're able to provide to that plant manager visibility to what's happening, how are their PLC's performing, did anybody change my program, is my recipe for my given product I'm making secure and safe? So you have to appeal to the operational user with what they care about. IT really cares about to manage the threat surface, don't let that threat kind of propigate. Now at the board level because the board sees both sides of it, they're asking these teams to work together because they have a complimentary skill set. >> Well I think that's critical because, rhetorical question, who's bigger control freaks? Network engineers or operation technology engineers? They both, you know, keep that operation going and are very protective of their infrastructure. So it's got to come from top down and it is a board level discussion, right? >> Yeah that's right, we have customers where, you know, the board, the CEO has mandated to say listen, whether it's for the national threat actors or other corporate espionage, I need to protect the corporate intellectual property. Because it's not just a process, it's also about safety of employees and safety of their assets that comes into play, right. So when some of the customers we're working with, where the CEO has kind of dictated that the IT teams help the operational environments, but it is a two-way street, like, there has to be value for both parties to come together to solve these challenges. >> Okay so we talked a little bit about the threat, also when we're talking IoT, there's all that data involved. What's the opportunity there for customers with data, how's Cisco involved? >> Absolutely, look, I think one of the reasons customers are doing digitization projects is because they're trying to use the data to make better business decisions. It has to improve, yield, and meet their KPI's of their industry. So far what we have seen is that all of the data is really trapped in all of these distributed environments. Gartner tells you that 75% of the data will be produced at the IoT edge. But our customers to date have not had the tool set to be able to get access to the data, cleanse the data at the edge of the network, bring the right data that they can create insights with, and improve their businesses so it's been a heterogeneous environment, lots of protocols, lots of legacy, so that's kind of what our customers are struggling with today. >> Yeah, absolutely and most of that data is going to stay at the edge so I need to be able to process the edge. Heck I even went to a conference last year, talked about satellites that are collecting all of the data, I need to be able to have the storage, the processing, the compute there because I can't send all of the data back, as fast as it is. So it's a changing architecture as to where I collect data, where I process data. We think it is very much additive to traditional cloud and data center environments today, it's just yet another challenge that enterprises need to deal with. >> That's right, so the work that Cisco is doing in the IoT edge environment is we are enabling these customers to connect their remote terminal units, their machines, and their robots and providing them the tool set with four capabilities. First, extract the data. So we have a set of protocols like Modbus, like OPC UA where they can extract the data from their machine so that's step number one. Second is to transform the data, as you said, over an LTE circuit or over a connection, I'm not going to be able to send all of the data back so how do I transform the circuit, transform the data where I maybe take an average over the last five minutes or I kind of put some functions, and we are providing, as we are in the Devnet zone, we are providing developers the capability such that they can use visual studio, they can use Javascript to write logic that can run right at the edge of the network so now you have extracted the data, you have transformed the data. Governance is a key topic, who should have access to my data, especially here in Europe where we're concerned about privacy, we're concerned about data governance. We are enabling our customers to come up with the right logic by which if there's a machine data and you are the supplier, I'm only going to give you the data, the temperature, the vibration, the pressure that you need to support the machine, but I'm not going to give you the number of units I produce. I'm not going to give you the data about my intellectual property. And then you have to integrate to where the data is going, right. So what we're doing is we are working with the public cloud providers, we are working with software ISVs, and we are giving them the integration capability and the benefit of this for the customer is we have done pre-integration on the extraction part and we have done pre-integrations on the delivery part, which allows the projects to go faster and they can deliver their IoT efforts. >> So how do you envision the compute model at the edge, I mean, probably not going to throw a zillion cores so maybe lighter weight components, and I have some follow up on that as well. >> Sure, absolutely. Look, Moore's law is a friend of ours here, right, like with every cycle, every generation of CPU technology, you get more and more compute capabilities. So the IoT gateways that we provide to our customers today have four ARM cores in them. We are using a couple, two of those ARM cores for the networking function but those cores are available for our customers. We have designed an extra memory for them to be able to process these applications and we give them SSD and some storage at that so we can provide up to sixty gigs or one hundred gigs of storage so now that gateway, that communication device, a router, a switch that's at the edge of the network can kind of do a dual purpose. It can not only process and provide you security for the communications but is now an edge processing node so we call them IoT gateways and I can tell you, we are deploying these kind of products on buses. You know, in a mass transit bus, we all ride these buses, there are over six systems that are on that bus. A video surveillance system, I'm going to monitor the tire pressure, I want to monitor if the driver is going over the speed limit. We have now connected all of these systems and we are running logic at the edge such that the riders have a safer experience and then they can get real time visibility to where the bus is as well. >> Yeah and my follow up was on persisting, so you mentioned storage, you know, flash storage at the edge and then you also referred to earlier the challenges this data today is locked in silos or maybe it's not even persisted, it's analog data sometimes. So do you envision, if you think about successful digital companies, kind of born digital, data's at the core and traditionally big manufacturing firms, large infrastructure, the manufacturing plant is the center of the universe and data sort of sits around it. Do you envision a period where that data is somehow virtualized and we have access to it, we could really build digital businesses around that data, what are your thoughts? >> Absolutely. So we have been working with a customer, it's a steel manufacturer in Austria, the heartland of Europe as an example. And they make high quality steel, right, and when they're building the high quality steel, they have two hundred different machine types and like you're saying, the data is trapped in there. This customer is trying to digitize and trying to do that but they have been struggling for the last two years or so to be able to get the data because it's a variety of machines and they want to use our IoT services but they haven't been able to pipeline the data all the way to their cloud environments so that was one of our lighthouse customers and we worked with them like, you know, roll up your sleeves and kind of designed the system with them. And we worked to get that data such that now, they're not quite a born-digital company but they are a hard manufacturing company, they can get the best of the tool sets and analytics and all of the things that contemporary tech companies use and they can bridge them into this digital environment. >> Yeah and this is how the incumbents can compete with the sort of digital natives, right I mean it's an equilibrium that occurs. >> That's right, I mean look we love the digital companies but they're not really, they don't have physical assets there or out there working. They're working in a more physical or more of the real economy whether if you are an oil company and you're getting, extracting oil from a pumpjack, right, well you need to still have the capability to do that better. So that's what we're doing, whether you're a transportation, like the bus example I gave you, an oil and gas company whose trying to extract oil from the ground or you are a manufacturer or you're a utility, if we improve use of our digital technologies and operate, improve the efficiency of the business, a 0.1%, a 1%, that has got a much much bigger implication for us as a society and the world at large. But just making them better and more efficient. >> Huge productivity gains. >> Exactly right, that's right, right. >> Massive, yeah. >> So I think that technology and IoT technologies can benefit all of these industries and you know Cisco is kind of invested and kind of helping our 70,000 customers to get better with all of these capabilities. >> Awesome, congratulations. 70,000 customers, big number, rolling out IoT solutions. Look forward to keeping track of Cisco's IoT solutions. >> Super excited to be here, thanks again. >> For Dave Vellante, I'm Stu Miniman, back with lots more wall-to-wall coverage here at Cisco Live 2020 in Barcelona. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>>Fly from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 route to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >>Hello everyone. Welcome back to the cubes live coverage. Four days here in Barcelona, Spain for Cisco live 2020 kicking off the year. Great event. I'm Jafar way my co Stu Miniman, our next guest, Danny Winokur, general manager of app dynamics, part of Cisco and special keynoter headlining the event, the networking show headlining by the app development story. Any welcome to the cube. Thanks for joining us. Thank you. It's good to be here. So one of the big signals, I think it was a shot across the bow to the industry, but also internally within Cisco has been the multi-year movement around getting API APIs built into the products. You start to see dev ops become network ops. Now with app dynamics, digging down into the infrastructure provide great value, but in a DevOps way. This is, this is the top story in my mind. You've led the keynote, which was very unusual for Cisco. Was it planned that way? Tell us some of the background. >>Well, it was planned that way. And I think part of what we're recognizing is that in the world that we're now living in where applications have moved to become the center of the business, you have business initiatives encoded in applications and that's what actually drives the use of technology in the organization. So it really starts with the application. And Cisco of course recognizes that and that has implications for the way we think about the entire technology stack. And so we see it as an opportunity to actually make the infrastructure and the people that actually buy and work with the infrastructure, the infrastructure engineers and operations teams, network engineers and network operations teams, they become much more relevant by actually looking at how the technologies and the work that they do are actually placed within the context of the application and how that application and the experiences within it are delivering a business result to the larger organization. >>Yeah, and one of the big trends, how she's doing, I were early days in the cloud, watch Amazon rise up. No one kind of saw that common. Most of the insiders did, but API APIs were key, but the word dev ops was started around that time. Infrastructure as code makes a lot of sense. Programmable infrastructure. That's right. You guys picked up on that. We've been covering that for now for a four years around programmable networking and you guys have been just goes, been shifting the products, but during the keynote you mentioned biz dev ops, which I thought was a very fascinating stake in the ground. Could you explain what you meant by that? Because if I think what you're saying is true, this is now another layer of opportunity that takes advantage of all the scale. The agility. Efficiency. >>Yeah, that's right. That's right. So I mean, what's what's going on is companies that now say, okay, my business is now in my app. The app has become the business. They have to now figure out how do they iterate very, very quickly on that application. And in order to iterate very quickly, the business team, the development team and the operations teams need to work together in a closed loop operating model. Because if they don't work together closely, they have two big problems, right? One is the business initiatives which move very quickly, can't get encoded quickly enough in the application and the application falls behind and the business suffers. Number two, they can't produce winning experiences because executives like us sitting in a conference room with an idea for an experience are almost always wrong about what's going to work for the end-users. The way it works in the modern world and what we know from digital native organizations that have pioneered this is that you actually have to form user research and a hypothesis from it and it in your application and get it quickly in front of your users with real time measurement and telemetry and then you use that to inform yourself in real time around what's working and what's not. >>You reform your hypothesis, make that adjustment reimplementing code, get it back out and iterate and iterate and the more shots on goal that you're able to take with the velocity of iteration, the more likely you are to get to the winning experience. So biz dev ops is really around getting those three teams, the business team, the development team, and the operations team working together with velocity in a new operating model that allows you to actually gain the competitive advantage that's necessary in an experience driven application centric world where the infrastructure and development team and the business are now all working together in tandem, in lockstep. >>The antennae had really interesting stuff as we all know that the organizational construct in the silos often slow down that that innovation and growth we watched for years developers, they find their tools, they do their thing, but as you said, it's got to be connected with the business. I want to make sure I understand. We've seen somewhat places where some of the tooling actually is getting people together because they have common data. You give the business people things in their colors and languages as opposed to the developers. They need different things out of it, but it's a, it's a backbone or back plane buildings together. So are those business product owners or business leaders actually coming into and seeing things? Is it at that level, the >>really important point, right? The problem that we've seen in the traditional operating model is not only are the teams siloed, but the technologies and the data that they rely upon keep them siloed. And so as the changes in the market are pushing them to work together for the reasons I said, they need common tooling and common data sets. And so what we're actually doing at Cisco is connecting app dynamics to the tools that are beneath it in the stack. Like what we announced yesterday with the inner site inner site workload optimizer and what we've previously done with ACI for the software defined data center networking fabric so that you can actually have each team, each persona use a tool that they're comfortable with that's specialized for their domain, but the datasets are now connected. So it gives them a single source of truth that allows them, instead of finger-pointing when something goes wrong or they need to optimize, they're able to actually have a shared source of truth and they can say, okay, I understand my domain here, I understand my domain here, but they're telling me the same thing, and that makes it easier for them to collaborate in this closed loop, the operating model. >>Whereas it was harder to do that when they were looking at their separate tools and separate data. One of the things I want to get your thoughts on, Danny, is as coming from the app dynamics side now at Cisco, you've seen a lot of modern used the word modern applications. The modern architecture is evolving. People see the picture, they know what to do. Most enterprises outside of the the pioneers, they're like, okay, I love the idea of biz dev ops, but Hey, I'm just trying to figure out which cloud I'm going to use. Right. Okay. So take me through how you engage with that because you're kind of, you might be ahead of the curve on the thought process, but I'm just trying to crop the cloud and it's impacted me as a notarized. What do you say to that? What's that? What's your answer to that? >>I mean, what we see going on right now is that in almost every single organization that has their business now running in the apps, those apps are hybrid multi-cloud apps, right? They recognize that in order to iterate quickly on the front end of the application, they probably need to use some of the latest cloud based technologies, either in the public cloud or in a private cloud on premise us. But they also have other components of their architecture that are going to be using something more like web technologies or client server technologies or in some organizations still mainframe technologies for backend data access. And so you end up with this sort of diverse array of layered tech stacks across different deployment environments in a multi-cloud world. And they have to work together seamlessly. And so part of what we've done is innovate lenses within app dynamics that actually give you a view through that complexity so that you can focus on what really matters most. >>And that was yesterday's announcement of the experience journey map that we have from app dynamics, right? It compliments what we've done before with business transactions and business IQ and adds a new lens that is focused on the screens that the end users are actually seeing in their browser or on their mobile device. And it automatically uses AI and ML technology to map a screen by screen journey flow through the application that the user's actually seen and experienced seeing and experiencing. And within that screen-based view, it gives you business data like abandonment rate and it correlates it down to the technical performance of what's actually being served to the user on that screen so that you can quickly determine where are the technology issues across this broad hybrid multi-cloud estate. Where are they actually surfacing issues or not on the screens that your users are seeing. >>So you can now prioritize the warnings on the back end based on what your users really need you to address right away. So if I hear you correctly, what you're saying is essentially cause instrumentation. You mentioned that earlier data is critical. So what you're saying is you could have abandonment rates say's an app or whatever and say maybe there's a DDoS attack on, on a switch or a firewall. So I might want to scale that up with policy. So you're seeing, you're coordinating technical remedies or architectural changes based upon what you know, the business logic, is that what you're kind of getting at? That's exactly right. So we know from data that we have from our app attention index, that 50% of users are willing to pay more for a competitor's product if it performs and gives them a better experience. And worst yet 63% of users and the app potential index have told us that if they get a subpar digital experience, they're going to go out and actually not only leave but bad mouth, the experience that they had and spread ill will about your application. >>So what has to happen in that world is you have to actually relate your business performance data to the user experience within the screen, through the experience journey map into the backend application components, which is the business transaction and then down through intersite into the layers of the infrastructure where you can actually get into the chassies, the blades, the fans, the Dems and the network. So essentially it's like auto scale and concept that will, you know, in cloud that's right. Fly to the app level and a feature by feature basis. That's right. And you can do it exactly. You can do it within the context of the key experiences that have been prioritized as the ones that contribute the greatest impact of your business results. And you can work load optimize and scale infrastructure dynamically and automatically. Final, final point on this cause a good thread here. >>So final question is, okay, now prove it to me. How much money did I make? Can you guys tie that to actual dollars? Because then on the client's side, do they have to program then? No. So you can within app dynamics, through our business IQ capabilities, tell us through the interface of their product, what are the pieces of business data that are the key measures of your business success. It could be dollars, it could be cents, it could be skews, it could be a product ID, it could be an abandonment rate or a funnel conversion through your funnel. You tell us what are those metrics that you need and we will actually introspect, pull them out and give you a real time ROI. It is. That's what it is. So, so Denny, the thing I've been trying to chomp at the bid here, I'm agreeing with a lot of what you're saying. >>There was a trend that was all over everywhere that we went in 2019 that I heard and haven't heard you use a certain word. It's observability. Certain people are like one of the biggest trends of 2020 help us understand your viewpoint on observability what you're hearing from customers because much of the language you're talking about of that systems view resonates as what we're talking about. Observability so just not fond of the word or none. Not trying to jump on that bandwagon. It's a buzzword. What I'm talking about is full stack observability. That's exactly what it is. You can go from the business to the end user experience, the application, the compute infrastructure, the network infrastructure and the security domain that wraps at all and you can actually now see with telemetry that we're pulling in from each of those layers whether it's using app dynamics or using some of the instrumentation that Cisco has across those other infrastructure layers and security layers of the stack. >>We pull that all together with AI and ML produce insights and then provide an API that allows integration with systems for automation and action that is not only full stack observability it's full stack observability paired with the ability to implement an AI ops operating model that then supports a biz dev ops way of working for the company. You might want to throw in horizontal observability too because you know with cloud you've got horizontal scalable across deployment. Exactly across your deployment environment and from an application standpoint, everything from kind of traditional model is through microservices. Do things with serverless do are absolutely we have, we have agent technologies that take care of the very latest serverless technologies. We have things for Kubernetes cluster monitoring, we have support for CloudWatch and then going all the way back to the other side. Of course, traditional job applications.net applications back to mainframes IIB. >>We monitor and support all of that. It's the broadest array of visibility of what you're going to cabbage in the company working for you, the all the cool stuff. Cloud native Coobernetti's we've tried, we let, we like to be the cool kids. Magic questions. So I got to ask you, since you've got a good view up and down the stack and across multiple domains and workloads and clouds, what do you think, going into 2020 with this show and beyond, what is the most important story you think that people are talking about and what's the most important story that you think people should be talking about? I think the most important thing that's going on right now is figuring out how to connect across the different technologies and the different layers, right? We're coming from a place where there's naturally been a specialization within each of the domains. >>The whole point now is about multi domain and actually connecting the different layers of the technology stack to produce insights that allow for movement in this lock step higher velocity model. Because what we know from all of the data and all of the experience with customers is that the winners and an experience driven world are those that can actually implement with velocity, not break things and deliver well-designed, beautiful experiences. And in order to do that, you need to be able to connect these different technologies and get the teams that traditionally run them working together in a much more collaborative, what are people missing? What should we be people be focused on. Outside of that, what other areas that either the media or customers, what are the, what are some of the hidden gems out there that people should really pay attention to? Well, I think, I mean I think there's a lot of exciting innovation that is going on in some of the new cloud native technologies in the cloud native architectures. >>The other thing that I think is a little bit of a hidden thing that a lot of people haven't realized is that the cloud is great for some of the really high velocity, fast moving things, but it's not always the most efficient or the least, sorry, the most cost effective way, least least costly way of running everything and so we actually do see some recoil back to these hybrid environments where people are actually now running some cloud technologies on premise us and so I think that's an area to watch as we see some of the public cloud players, obviously out of the traditional players bringing cloud innovation, but running that on premises in a way that connects seamlessly to elastic scalable public cloud resources that work together in tandem. I guess last >>question I had for you, I think it was in your keynote, I heard you talk about customers using app D as being agents of transformation. Just what advice do you give them? You know, where are some of the stumbling blocks that if they don't have a conversation or understand a certain architecture that they're going to run into some issues? >>Yeah. So for us, an agent of transformation is the sort of notion of a change agent in the organization that recognizes the things we've been talking about where the world is going and is seeking to be that disruptive force of change inside the company. And in order to do that, what we have found is they're most successful when they get their hands on hard cold data, right? That's how you convince an organization. You show them the data and you connect the data and the technology to a business result. And so the most effective change agents have been able to go into the depths of the technology. They've been able to correlate data sets up and down the stack and then walk into the board room at the executive level and show in an undeniable evidence based way that these layers of technology are producing this business result and the organization needs to invest to accelerate that. And that's >>jail model too. You just get the data and iterate. Double down on absolutely what you want. It brings it all the way up to the boardroom. Danny, thanks so much for taking the time to share that. Great insights. I'll give you a minute to get a plug in for app dynamics. What do you guys got going on? Which shows you're going to be at the coming year, actually Cisco live in America. Any other event you going to be there? Any investment areas? Give a quick plug for what's going on. >>Yeah, no, I appreciate it. The next big one for us is on February the 20th we're running a global virtual event called app dynamics transform 2020 which is our annual showcase where we bring together all of the latest and greatest innovations that app dynamics has across what we're doing with AI and ML. Everything that we're doing around new experiences, cloud native technologies, the AI ops operating model, our vision for the central nervous system for it, and we're going to showcase all of that demo and talk about our roadmap. So it's a global live virtual event. Come to our website, aptdynamics.com and please tune it. Right. Well, congratulations for your success and thank you. Love to have you come into our studio. Talk about what you're doing with video because that's a hard, hard problem. We talked to Sri about that. Thanks for coming. I really appreciate it. Thank you guys. Yeah, appreciate it. We're here in the cube AptDynamics headlining the keynote at Cisco systems. A networking company turned into a data company, a video company, an instrumentation company. Application can be all now in one. Just the cube bringing you all the data here in Barcelona. I'm John. We'll be back with more live coverage after this short break.

>>live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the Cube covering Cisco Live 2020 right to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the Cisco Live 2020 show in Barcelona, Spain. It's the Cube's live coverage. Four days of action. I'm John Furrier with my co host, Dave Vellante. Stew Minimum is in the house. We've been really interview all the thought. Leads all the action here in the DEV. Net zone of Cisco. We're here with Susie Wee, who's the senior vice president, chief technology officer and general manager of Cisco's DEV. Net and C X ecosystem success. Susie, great to see you again, Thanks to you. With our third year we've been we've been watching the growth of definite explode and definite create a separate event for developers. Great to see you. >>Great to see you. Great to be here. >>So how does it feel to be on a wave of success? You've had quite an impact in the industry, and I think the biggest story that's going on in the industry is the role of developers. You guys have embraced that four years ago, brought it all together and really just been marching to the cadence of just humble training, education and programming, all the Cisco products enabling what it looks like to be the future of Cisco. >>Yeah, I mean, it's it's humbling, t So you know what's been really great? It's really all about our community. And, you know, I mean, you guys have jumped in, been with us on this journey. You've seen it like all around us in terms of how it's progressed. But what's interesting is that, you know, networkers the software developers, the Dev Ops pros that people who are coming into definite really progressing, they're getting to the next level. And then we have more and more new people coming in. And what happens is the technology keeps advancing right. So networking, security going toe intent based networking, multi domain. How do you integrate these things? Cognitive collaboration. I o t an edge, you know, edge computing. As all of this comes together, you get to a really interesting place. But what happens is we have to think about I t department networking departments like how do people use this to their advantage? Right. So there's actually users of people who install and run these things and how do they make that available and actually get a business advantage out of that infrastructure? That's what this is all about. >>And the big scene. Wendy on the opening keynote, kicked off before David came on. She had a slide that I thought encapsulate what I think the future of all business and you guys have been on and on and on, a reference that it was people in communities, business model and business operations almost like a three legged stool. You've been on this because your team Michael was on the Cube just now said people have been in their careers on Cisco. But Cisco is betting the business on the people, that ecosystem, it's developers. CC III is the certifications. This dynamic of the role of the people is critical, >>and they're driving >>the change >>it is. And you know what was tremendous about Cisco's business model and how Cisco was founded. So this was pre me, you know, and it's just the brilliance of the early folks is like Cisco made this router, you know? It was a little start up. It was like five people, right? And then it started flying off the shelf in the mid eighties in late eighties when the Internet started taking off, and then the way they scale that out was by growing the community, they didn't say We're going to hire people around the world to install these networks. We're gonna create a community of professionals who can go around and install these networks. And then we're going to create a partner ecosystem of partners who are going to build businesses around this, installing networks for customers. And so really, Cisco very early on, learn that we had to be very customer focused and build with an ecosystem of partners. And then we created Cisco Certification Program, and that started to take the people who are getting trained to do networking and give them certifications. And then they were able to get jobs in customers and partners and build their careers. And so now we move that to today, and we're continuing with that philosophy and doubling down. It's about them, except there's a shift in technology. So the network has changed. It's not the same old network like now. There's new capabilities that require software. It requires dev ops. It requires applications to hit the infrastructure it requires. I T and Infrastructure to solve business problems. But we need to bring the people along and doing that, and that is absolutely what we've been about. >>I said in my breaking analysis there were there were many things that helped Cisco rise with the three things like pointed out where the bet on I p, the M and A and then I was too narrow. I liked how you describe it as the community, but really talking about the Army of trained engineers that were advocates. And you're extending that to the partner ecosystem. What's interesting about watching this rise over the faster uses? Not only transformation of Cisco from hardware to software and now even business transformation is you see, I t go from a cost center to a profit center, but you're sort of following that track. I don't know if you're leading it are following it sort of incompetent what's going on. And, >>you know, I would say >>that we're doing both because, uh, obviously we're listening to customers and partners all the time to see what do you need? So we're listening, and that would make us leading as we're sorry. Following is >>we're >>listening and yet we're creating technology to enable them to do these new things right? So there's a reason that you can think about the network to be solving business problems. It's because we made the networking programmable and based on software. If we didn't make it software, it would still be running the old way. And it wouldn't be able to play in a Dev ops loop or be automated or anything there. So I would say that it's very combined. But Cisco takes a holistic approach right back there. We have an I T managers forum where there are people who are trying to say, Hey, you know, I've been leading technology teams in I T. But I need to learn how to talk to the business, right? So there's a transformation that needs to happen, which is okay, The technologist networkers I t folks themselves need to learn about software. But then also, these folks and their managers need to be able to talk to the business and think differently. So take some design thinking. Think about what are the business stakeholders problems where customers problems, how can I make my technology work for them? So we really have a lot going on Teoh building the kind of success of our ecosystem. >>Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned technology shift, and that's causing a lot of change is actually how people are certified business models. And it's interesting. When we were chatting years ago, Dev. Ops was actually out there. The hyper scales around you saw it evolving was pretty clear to a lot of the insiders. That's Dev Ops. Infrastructure is code. Then you kicked on something where programmable networks I heard this week, and this is kind of again goes to the next level and kind of connect the dots. Biz Dev. Ops. So the AB dynamics guys, look at this as OK. So this agile attitude yes, has been on for a while. Could you comment? I think >>a lot of people that >>are looking at Cisco trying to understand its evolution where it's gonna go >>yeah, >>is rooted in years ago. A shift in thinking, yes, and it's an agile It's a dev ops mindset, >>yes, but >>the Dev ops notion from whether it's pure Dev ops, cloud native or Dev ops or Biz Dev ops >>for what's next? So this is a It's been around for a while. You just share your Yeah, Absolutely. So >>I have a slide and we don't show slides here, which is a good thing. But it was called it the hamburger slide. So the hamburger slide, where there would be infrastructure and the applications. And then there's this other layer appear business, you know. And basically, what happens is the infrastructure became programmable, so as opposed to the infrastructure and the applications being separate, the I T teams did the infrastructure of the app Dev did. The businesses did the APS. Then now that the infrastructure's family can get into a dev ops workflow. So for cloud applications, the APS and the infrastructure can really mix. And now the network is programmable. So there's Net Dev ops. And it's not just compute that can get into Dev ops. But you know, the network can too. But then, now that business layer can flow into this. And so what happens is once again, you could say that cloud enables business, right? And so, if you know, a business is trying to say, how do I compete like a retail store? How my completing with a cloud competitors. Well, you have to embrace it. Take your traditional infrastructure, your customer data your stores, but then mix that with cloud offerings. That's a huge transformation that needs to happen. But now there's even more capabilities. As you're saying, Hey, I'm like a coffee shop and I'm rolling out all of these stores. How do I make sure my business applications get there? How do I get customer intelligence and business intelligence together so my workers can serve my customers with the right knowledge and information they need so you can actually use the infrastructure and APS as an advantage in how you serve your business? And you wouldn't even be able to do those things if you didn't know about the technology. So I would say that there's like a workforce trend where technology is enabling business and it can grow your business in different ways. But we need to make sure that we can express that because the technologist doesn't usually talk in terms of the business. But that's where all the value >>on the application has always been. That point of business value in connection to the business when the APP is the infrastructure has been removed from that now that the infrastructure's becoming programmable. It's embedded into that application, and developers can now add value on top of it. I mean, the striking thing to me was just behind us, to seeing a number of your customers lining up to learn how to code in Python. And then I o t was off the charts. And I've always been saying that Look at the edge is going to be one by developers E. I think you really got that right. I'm curious as to why you think just really is the one company in a large, established player. That is, I think, figured it out that I've said that many have tried throwing money at the problem, reaching out to developers fallen flat. I mean, even very successful software companies were struggling. Why do you think Cisco has had successes? Is a culture is at the leverage of that certification and community that you talked about earlier? >>Yeah, it's while it's really hard to say, like one reason why, because these air tricky things, like so taking on a new business strategy, getting everybody aligned in a big company, even in a little company, is hard, but it takes like everybody pushing towards the direction and what happens is different. People get it at different times. So obviously with Dev net, we're trying to push something along. The CEO Chuck Robbins. He got it and he was pushing it. And then the businesses and product teams. Some of them had a P I first, and some of them did not. But now more and more on almost all of them do. Now. All the products have AP eyes and they're getting more AP I first and now what we're doing is aligning AP eyes across the portfolio. You need to get your sales teams to understand and to engage. Like the regions. We have people in Italy who are engaging with the Italian community. We have our seas around the world that are basically engaging the people in each of their countries to evangelize it in tow, work with customers and partners in their local language is using this material to get them on board. So, you know, when we started, Definite Way had different ways we could take it. No one defined a developer program for a company like Cisco before, like a networking company, but we actually didn't do it by saying, Oh, we're only gonna talk to application developers and ignore those old networkers We said we're going to make them core and bring them along and bring in the captives and bring them together. I wouldn't say we're gonna, like, forget about the old Cisco products We said we're gonna work with them as they add AP eyes and make that better. We're gonna ignore our sales guys and the ones that we're going to bring them along and make them our evangelists and advocates to work with the region. So we kind of use the whole fabric along with it and just I kind of gained. The community >>recognized the appetite for building, and some people are like, >>I'm going to jump in and give this a try because I think it's important and something like, I'm gonna wait and see and they're like, Oh, it's something now, Okay, now I'll jump in and we're like, >>That's right, >>you're totally We do a lot of Cuban. It is many different events here at Cisco over the years. It's interesting to see when people get in and you can see it when their eyes pop up. Oh, I get it. It is a progression of whether they're orientation, what their background is. But it seems to me the early people who click it on it is our systems thinkers. Most of the techies, they're systems systems, folks. Yeah, they see as a system not as one thing. Yes, As you said, it's not just absent infrastructure. So a lot of the system guys get it first. And then on the business side, they see it from more of the making money. So you see the impact of the application changing the business model. It's a retail app or whatever they get it. That that's gonna be the future. Yeah, it depends on where you're coming from. >>It does. It does. And what's interesting is to >>see how this community has evolved and actually, how we've evolved to be able to support people along the way. So as you remember, when you were first year, it was really some techies who realized they needed to learn something new. So is about learning about software and AP eyes. And then we evolved. It became about coding. So how do we use a definite automation exchange in code exchange to use a software based model to build community code around networking use cases because they wanted to use it and get it into use cases. And then now we have people are like, Okay, I'm doing it, I get it. But I can't get my business leaders to understand. So now we're actually helping them express the business case and create use cases that solve business problems more directly, so >>your access to customer success >>and customer success. So now explain that piece. What is that? How >>to be successful at training is everything >>customer direction. What is that piece? So s >>o me and my team were Cisco employees, and sometimes I mean, this doesn't get represented, but we move around the York, so you know, as different things change. And so there's a recent move where it has been in the engineering team. I've now moved into the customer experience organization. We're doing a transformation like a customer experience, customer success, transformation for Cisco and so you know, as we think about that. Well, first of all, Cisco's always been customer oriented, But what does this mean in a world of software in world of partners? ecosystems with the products and opportunities we have now. And so, as we're gearing towards this kind of customer success and customer experience model, is that, you know, they're trying to do a transformation, and it's actually very similar to what Dev Net has already done, which is specifically, let's see. So when you engage with a company on new technology, we can say Okay, come here to the DEV Net Zone and learn about the AP eyes, you know. But as you're working with a customer and you say, Hey, you know you're from the customer, let's go on this journey together. Did you know that we have AP eyes? Let's learn about AP eyes. >>And did you know that >>this product performs this function? But it also has AP eyes. So let's teach you about those. Then you learn a different aspect of the product that you might not have thought about before because you're like, Oh, it can be a platform and then you say, Hey, and you know you need to solve automation. This can be used to solve automation, and so then you're like, Oh, I'm thinking about automation, but how do I do it? so you can't have just one product. That's >>that's a progression that depends on what the customer's orientation is, whether environment looks like >>so it >>means, like start to evolve and think about their problem. Actually, their problem is automation. Their problem is not using this product right. They're trying to solve a bigger product and hopefully this is a bigger business problem or an automation problem. And this product is a piece of the puzzle into it. So we want to kind of engage in the full discussion from what is your need, an automation and then work backwards toe like, How can this product help? And so it's kind of like turning things upside down and ensuring the customer uses. And, you know, we understand their business problem. We're helping them solve it. And this is how these products can play a role in helping you achieve that >>in every business is looking at that from the corner office. They all want to drive automation into their business. They're looking at okay, if the economy turns out more automation, whether it's you know, you see an R P. A takeoff is the cloud is supporting that, Yeah, it's a big trend >>is huge, and it's, you know, and actually moving to an automation infrastructure. It's not like buy a new product and you've automated and you're done. It's actually very hard, and it requires an architectural shift. It means, like I'm going to start to build telemetry, analyze data and get insights from it. Well, if you don't have that implemented somewhere, then you need to architect for them. And then once you start building into that and seeing dashboards and then connecting that into other business APS, then you start to go further and further so every step along the way, we want to get them closer to an automation architecture. But that takes work, >>and it's cultural as well as people hear automation. If it well, that's my job and so >>little >>education. And then once they see it, Oh, you mean I could get rid of all these things I don't like to do, and I can do this instead. Then they really lean in and create new value. >>Yeah, So what we're getting at is this, like, really interesting. I'll call it a new technology trend of looking at kind of automation, plus Ai together, right? And so I've been talking about it out here in some places, which is now we've been talking about automation. We've been talking about AI. You look at these together. There's a set of people who are like, Let's think about what automation means. It could mean Oh my gosh, someone's going to take my job away. I don't need people anymore That would be called like autonomous. And there's some things that you do want to make autonomous and work themselves. But then you can also look at kind of assisting humans. Right? So assisting like, what are you trying to do? Roll out configurations across different places and get them set up where we can automate that and you can assist a human? And being able to do it on this next age is augmenting humans. What is there that a person really couldn't do that they can do now in a night? Example of that is, you know, you take a look at threat intelligence and security going around the world. Cisco has products around the world that are looking for security threats. You put those together, you can see a threat before it comes to a customer environment and say, Hey, we found this threat. We better shut it down over in your system to make sure you're blocked and protected from it. You've augmented human capability, you know, using automation and AI. >>You know, one of the things a lot of companies do is they focus on a big wave and they focus on it. They get on that new wave. Cisco's on a lot of different ways. You got I, O. T. And Security, which you were talking about. This kubernetes and Cloud native is like all these collaboration. They're all their own big waves coming. So I have to ask you because you've been so successful, definite and then a great leader in the industry with all your experience. What's your vision as this comes in? Because Cisco is that one of the benefits uniquely positioned with all the complexity, all the opportunities to the Dev ops, like across the board up and down the stack, these waves are coming. It's not just one. You have a focus on kubernetes. You got a focus on security. There's all these different big things that you guys are working on. What's your vision >>on how >>this all plays out >>like so while there's different, there's different things going on kubernetes and cloud. You know, we're doing networking. What's going on in I O. T and Edge Computing and the Future of Cognitive Collaboration and AI and ML, And you know all of this kind of thing a security I don't actually view them as separate. Actually view them is all part of a bigger system, right? They're part of a platform that's trying to solve a bigger problem, >>and the secret is AP ice. So it's actually a >>combination of architecture in AP eyes and how this works is a fabric together and you know there's benefit. Like if you're trying to do security, sure, you can use security products to do security. But why don't you also use network segmentation to do security, like literally segment out pieces of the network and, you know, data and APS that should not be talking to other places and use that for security? So, you know, I kind of view it is all working together towards a bigger architecture because you're using Ap eyes. You can start to put these things together and start to apply policies across these different domains. So this kind of whole new area, another new technology trend, is looking at multi domain opportunities and cross architecture. So that's really key >>in the data that you get out of that as well, right? Data and metadata that you can analyze and then act upon. Yes, Dr. Inside >>multi domain, multi clouds Having >>data models, right? Look at how do you take, you know, so that all these different systems are adding up to a everything you need to create data models that these different applications can kind of pour into >>that used to be locked inside of a box. Sitting in >>these types of application would have its own >>kind of model, But we're really all working towards the bigger thing in software that lets you down in >>the silicon is a great thing to get so looking One coming, Yes, moving from the box of the chip. Yeah, not a bad strategy. >>Super interesting. So, yeah, >>if you look at, you know, where are the bottlenecks in this? And this is where you need to rethink what your business strategy is. And it's just like you down in the optics down at that layer is where the big opportunities are. And if we can differentiate and provide value in that space, then that's what we've done. We >>were riffing the other night in the taxi came in I said, The day of Digital and digital, which is the Internet's all digital. Now the business model is the killer app, and we're just more of a provocative statement like, What are you trying to dio with that? What all this is? What's the purpose of all this? >>Yeah, I >>have a business model that actually works. >>It is, But it is, Yeah, >>and what's interesting about the business model? Also, to think about that? It's not just your own business model. It's again. That's where that's why I called our new group ecosystem success. It's what you do, you know. And there's this whole model of success, meaning you your customer, your supply chain up above you and then how you deliver. But it's east west now, too, right? It's like, How does your innovation work with your partner's innovation? Another area that and how did this all happen together? Like, how do you take trends in security and advances there and, you know, in workforce and people. And as you take a look at, you know, everything that's happening in cloud and then intersect so that we're all successful >>and it's enabled by what you're saying before automation and AI obviously supported by Cloud AP eyes and data across that system that you guys were talking >>about, I think that I think the bumper sticker for Cisco's Cisco connects businesses because that's really what you're doing. >>There we go way >>shut up for the 1st 500 >>Yes, yes, yes. So yes. So some of the big news over here is that well, in this >>world of where the infrastructure becomes programmable. So what Cisco's had a long time is Cisco's sort of certification program. So we have ccn a Cisco Certified Network Associates. Si Si n Pi's CC III is the expert level, and that's been an industry standard for the last 26 years, and people have job roles. They've gotten promotions, they get recognized, their certified for delivering quality, and what we've introduced is the definite certifications. So, in addition to the engineering certifications or the software certifications and Devon, it's kind of growing to the next level. By so far, everybody who's been in here has been into definite because of their hearts and because they knew they had to learn anything. But now we're giving them a certification so they can be recognized as their efforts, and we're expanding Cisco certification to cover it. Now. This represents the move of engineering plus software together in your I T teams and together for your technology teams and the new certifications. The definite set of Cisco Live February 24th the 1st 500 people to earn a definite certification. We're going to call the definite 500. And >>so they want to be the first >>ones who are really stepping forward in this new industrial shift towards combining engineering and software, making the world of the infrastructure talking to business and driving business happen. >>Well, we'd love to be First, get a list of >>thousands of people 500 seats that will take. We'll take the 501st 10,000 in the 1,000,000 I dive >>Heard Susie. Some Cisco VP's want to get into that 500. >>They yes, Gamification. >>Always a good strategy, Susie. Great to watch your successes with folks watching, seeing definitely come from an idea execution and now core to the business model's been quite an evolution. Congratulations. Always success. >>Thank you. And thank you for joining us on this journey. >>So we've been working together on it. >>We've learned a lot. It's been so much fun. We're in the DEV Net zone. I'm John Furrier Dave Vellante with Susie Wee, the chief of the definite team and the big zones gets bigger every year. And the cube's getting big air thanks to you and the team. Appreciate it is to keep more live coverage from Barcelona. Cisco live 2020 after this short break. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the Cube covering Cisco Live 2020 right to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back. You're watching the Cube, helping to extract the signal from the noise here at Cisco Live 2020 in Barcelona. I'm stupid, and my co host for this segment is Dave Volante. John Furrier is also in the house. One of the things when we look at Cisco it has a strong strength and helping users really with their careers. And, of course, education is a key piece of that Help really dig into that ever changing topic. Talk about future of work as a great hashtag. I love following on LinkedIn and Twitter Everybody's always interested in because it affects so many people. Mike Adams Welcome back to the Cube vice president, general manager of learning at Cisco. Thanks so much. Thanks. It's >>a pleasure to >>be here. Good to see you guys again. All right, so we're here in the Dev Net. Zo, we've been watching some of the move Cisco's been making heard about the New Dev Net certifications, of course. You know, leading up to and at the show, I see lots of friends talking about the prep they're doing. The course is they're taking and, you know, all excited if they pass a certification, everything. So bring us into kind of what's new in your world. Sure on, and we'll go from there. >>So the last time we spoke in San Diego, we had just announced Cisco's new certification program, the most exciting and fundamental changes we've made to the certification program in over a decade. That was the promise that we made to the industry in 26 short days. We fulfill that promise with the launch of the new certification program right, and that includes the first software certification track for Cisco. The definite certifications. But there's some other big changes that have been incorporated into the new program as well. We have continuing education credits, which we spend a little bit of time talking about last time to allow people to maintain their certifications at every level. There's a lot of evidence that there's more value in learning new things to maintain that certification than just re taking an old test again. We also have a customer success manager certification that I would love to chat with you guys about as well because there's two big fundamental changes taking place in the industry today. One of them is very technology oriented, the coming together of network and software to unleash the capability of the network. But there's a fundamental business change that's taken place is where a business model change. And that's where Cisco has pivoted our historic services organization toward a customer success, customer experience oriented model. And we're now certifying folks to be customer success managers in the industry as well. So a lot happening around certifications, >>I said in my breaking analysis leading up to the show. You know, the ascendancy of Cisco kind attract a lot of things, but there were three. The levers that I called out one was the bet on I P. The other was the mergers and acquisition strategy which panned out, and the third was training. You know, this force of advocates, which became this the secret weapon we're now seeing sort of the next wave of that Are we in the industry changes. You guys are on top of that. I wonder if you could talk about the the force of, you know, body of work that you guys have helped create as advocates and really changing the way in which people are applying technology and beyond technology. >>Yeah, so So you're right. So for over 26 years, individual engineers and technologists have bet their career on Cisco, and they have actualized that through certifications. Those certifications in the rigor and the power of those have allowed them to demonstrate their capability to get that next job to compete and earn more for their family to do things that they never would have thought they would've been able to do otherwise, regardless of who their employer is. So one of the things that's most gratifying about the role that I'm in and the work that we do as we touch individual lives. You were talking a moment ago about hearing individual people being excited about the exam they passed. That's not a B to B conversation that's a person to person conversation, right, So that opportunity to influence that historically has been powerful. And with this new certification program that we're rolling out on a lot of the other changes that are happening, we're telling folks you can now bet your next 26 years on Cisco bet your career on us and we're gonna make sure that it's equally is valuable with the new skill software in particular there. >>And it's not. The point is that you talk to the folks who have gone through the sort of against, like CCP, obviously gold standard. Yeah, it's not trivial. It's really challenging. Is going back to college finding way work hard? Teoh make it regularly with the >>value of that certification is because we maintain the integrity of that program, and that's exactly what we're going to continue to do. So maybe using that structure and integrity and rigour that we've built over the last 26 years and now injecting new capabilities and skill into that model is really what the focus >>is. I love to hear a little bit more. Mike. You were talking about changes and different options. People have to make sure that they're not just on the treadmill of, you know, repeating the same thing. >>Yeah, yeah, I >>have to start with Dev. Net. You have to start with software skills we're hearing from our customers every single day. Fundamental networking capability and skills still critically important. But the thing they're hungry for right now is being ableto add software programming skills on top of that. And so our response to that obviously, is not only with what we do in definite here training people every day, right here behind us, but now allowing them to be able to demonstrate those skills that they have earned through a certification. So now they can take that to their employer and say, I've actually got it. I can show you can prove it. You don't have to see me do it. So that's That's one of the one of the fundamental changes that's happening right now in the industry and why it's so important to our customers and partners. >>So what's the data show? Where you seeing what's hot? What are you seeing? The demand? It's I O T and Python. I mean, lines out the standing room only back here. But what are you seeing in the data and what are you advising, folks? Toe. Sort of lean into >>Sure. Sure. Yeah. I'm glad you asked that. A couple of things. I'll sort of back up just a little bit if I can. Even on the network engineering track, if you will. We have begun to inject and embed more programming fundamentals. More software fundamental. So one way to think about it's kind of 2080. So in the network engineering track, there's still 20% of sort of software skills that we have built into each level in 80% of that traditional sort of network engineering capability. You have to demonstrate on the software side on the DEV. Net side. It's the flip, right, so it's 80% software, but there's 20% of networking engineering capability. What that does is allow all these folks to have a common language that they speak. This is about building an I T. Team of the future. It's not about having one individual that knows everything. It's about being able to assemble teams that know how to solve these problems together. So all those skills that you mentioned are really critical, as they can unlock the potential of Cisco's new programmable platform. >>Well, the other things do is it's self funding, so it's a good business, but a >>mic I'm curious when you're building these software certification, what did you learn from existing certifications out there? I think Microsoft, of course, very position in this space. The cloud providers have sort of occasions. So what did you learn in building this? And also a lot of your customers? If they're developers, they're playing in multiple environments. It's not CCTV. I know what gear I'm working on a developer. There's many environments I will play in. So so how do you frame what you're learning and how it fits in the broader it? >>Yeah. Yeah. So we do keep an eye on the industry, of course. And what other technology companies are doing around certifications? So we went to school on that a bit. You know, the Cisco certifications have been the gold standard. I think I mentioned a moment ago. For a long time we have seen sort of the increasing relevance of other technology certifications, and that was part of why we recognize that we needed to work a little harder to get back out in front to maintain that gold standard to continue to be the flagship in the industry. So we recognize that particularly on the software side, there is a broader set of skills that need to be integrated into the certification, but always with a focus on how the leverage those skills to unlock the potential of Cisco's platforms that we're building AP >>eyes on top of >>How about the security piece? Is that fit into the curriculum at this point? Yeah, >>security's pretty hot, huh? Security's pretty >>hard, and but it's complicated and it opens up a whole can of worms. And >>so security is still a very heavy focus of the new certification program. And I'll use this is an example toe to tell you about another fundamental change that we've made around the certification program. Historically, Cisco certifications have been more technology oriented, If you will, right, we have evolved the program to be more job role focus, so I'll give you an example. So let's say you wanted to prove that you have the capability to be a dev SEC ops engineer. Back to the security question that you had you would get a CCMP in security. So you get your core examine security. You would add to that concentrations in Dev Net, WebEx and Dev. Net SEC Ops, Dev ops and then the combination of those concentrations and specialists allow you to say I have the requisite skills to be an effective Dev. SEC ops engineer. So rather than having to show that through job history, I can now show that through a mix of concentrations and the certification. >>So I know we're going to be talking to Suzy and she'll be talking about the definite 100. But I'm curious when you look at the partners and you know some of your big customers. How fast do you expect this to roll out? You know what? What should we be expecting to see anything particular you have for the Cisco Channel of the You know, it's lots of certified people in their ranks. S So how are you helping to bring your customers and partners along? Sure. >>So two things I would say Number one. We have seen a real spike in certification testing over the last six months That tells us that there's a lot of value in what we're doing. It also tells me there's a lot of people that were studying for exams that want to get that in before the exam changes. And we have seen a lot of early sign ups for the exams that are going to be released on February 24th again 26 days away. We're close. And so when Susie announced The Dev Net 500 I'm telling you, the buzz around here is crazy. So anybody who's watching right now, I would tell them if they want to get that definite 500 you better go sign up for that exam right now. Go get your name on the list today. In anecdotally, I would say that's consistent with what we're seeing. We're seeing Ah, high demand for the new certifications in General and Dev Net. Specifically, partners are particularly interested because it's a way for them to differentiate their capabilities and what they do from some of their competitors. There's a definite specialist that a partner organization can earn by having a certain number of Dev. Net certified folks inside the organization that drives a lot of demand as well. >>You know, we've noticed that little uptick quite a big uptick in young people, kids in college watching our programs. So what do you tell those guys if they're interested in becoming an I T practitioner and where do they get >>started? Sure, I would tell him a couple of things. Number one, I would tell him. Bet your career on Cisco right? folks that are maybe not early in career like myself did the same thing 25 years ago, and it's paid off for us. And Cisco is committed not only to continuing to stay in the front of technology but making sure we're taking care of the needs of individual engineers and and developers out there who want to bet their careers on this. So hopefully the certification program we're launching is evidence of that, that we're going to continue to invest in them for the next decades to come. I would tell them if they're interested in being a network engineer, it's a great time to do that if they're interested in being a developer and understanding how to build and program and create applications. On top of Cisco's massively dominant infrastructure around the globe is a great opportunity to do that as well. And certifications are a great place. >>I'm curious when we look at the general cadence of release of hardware versus software. Software tends to move a little faster, so I'm curious what things your team has in place. Is it a you know, quarterly release cycle on the software side? Or how do you start to look at that. It's >>a really insightful question you asked, right, because the need to maintain current skills, particularly around new releases of software, is very different than it was 10 15 20 years ago. So I would say a couple of things right When we talk about how we enable and train and educate, often there are different ways we can. There are there are other ways that we meet that need. In addition to certifications, right certifications, almost by definition, move a bit more slowly. We want to maintain that rigger right. We always want to maintain the integrity of the program. So the training and education that we have available to folks via the Dev. Net and via the information that you can find and Cisco's website via the extensive network of our learning partners that we have, we are working to rapidly change that as new software releases come out and we will be looking to accelerate that pace of certifications. But just to be fair, certifications are always going to like, just a little bit behind that because we need to maintain that rigor. All >>right, Well, Mike, when we meet again at Cisco live in Las Vegas. We expect you to bring along some of those newly minted certificate is certified people in the environment. Thanks so much. We're really >>excited about that. Thank you. By the time you're welcome. Congratulations >>for Dave Volante. I'm Stew Minimum back with much more coverage here from Cisco Live 2020 in but in Barcelona. Thanks for watching the Cube. >>Yeah, yeah.