>>from around the >>globe, it's the >>cube with coverage of Kublai >>khan and cloud Native con, europe 2021 virtual brought to you by red hat. The cloud >>native computing >>foundation and ecosystem partners. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of Yukon 21 cloud native con part of the C n C f s event. This is the cubes continuing coverage. You got a great guest cube alumni entrepreneurs to borrow founder and ceo of up bound. Great to see you remotely too bad. We're not in person. But soon the pandemic Is right around the corner will be post pandemic with searing events are coming back. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on for coop con 21 >>Good, good to be back on the cube, john >>great to see you. You know, I've always loved your career, what you've been doing with that many conversations on the Cuban. Also in person, you're the creative rook and cross plane um, C N C F projects there. Um great venture, really part of this cloud native revolution that's happening, you were early on and the history of your career, but now you're seeing it go mainstream. Let's get into that on this session, because I really want to dig into this across cloud and now get ops is hugely popular. This is kind of what you call day to operate your ongoing, this is the future. This is a new environment. Before we get going, talk about the update on your in what's new with cross plane. >>Uh, So cross plane is growing as you know, it's a multi cloud control plane that essentially lets you uh you can connect it up to all the different infrastructure vendors and lets you manage infrastructure in a consistent way consistent with what, you know, what we do with the tops and and on the kubernetes ap I um and so the community has been growing tremendously. We've just applied for it together, the incubation status at the CNC F and really happy with all the progress around it. It's, it's such an amazing journey we've been on with cross plane, >>you know, it's funny you watch all the, the evolution of the cloud in the early days, it was, what is cloud, the big debate, people define what cloud is that? It was Oh yeah, clouds great. You can, you know, start up cloud developers, Greenfield, then it became enterprise cloud around 2015. Now, you know, today the cloud is not so much, you know, moving to the cloud as it was in 2015, it's like scaling and cloud, that is true enterprise grade. Um real serious operational security impacts multiple resources and this is where cross cloud comes in or, or, you know, I see hybrid clouds operating model, everyone has agreed on that. That's the architecture, but that also brings in assumes multiple clouds, right? This is where the new kind of control plane or you guys called cross cloud management kicks in. This is an enterprise priority. From what I can see. Do you agree with that? Can you share your commentary on how much our enterprises of prioritizing cross cloud management? Because that seems to be the Hot one. What's your take on us? >>Yeah, the way, the way we see it is that and we see this with customers and we see those folks in the community. Almost every enterprise we talked to is modernizing their I. T. You know, that, as you said, they're not going to cloud, they're already in cloud, but they're doing so many more things to kind of accelerate the pace of innovation and reduce the time for them to ship applications, which is now a fundamental part or fundamental measure uh of their success. Right. And so what we're seeing is that they're organizing into platform teams internally, and these teams are the ones that own the cloud accounts, they're the ones that are responsible for deploying infrastructure cross, whether it's cross cloud or hybrid cloud. Um and these teams are essentially organizing to build what looks like an internal platform and a key ingredient of this. Internal platform is a control plane and this is what enables getups. You see kubernetes as a control plane, that's in there, um it's it's the piece that's allowing them to actually connect to different clouds. It's the piece that's allowing them to manage their infrastructure, whether it's on premise or in cloud, it's the thing that's allowing them to do day to operations, all of that's happening in an interesting way. It's, it's happening within the enterprise. It is their own platform and it layers on top of the back and infrastructure that they're using, whether it's cloud providers or hybrid, you know, infrastructure, it's happening in a way that's enterprise from the enterprise and going out to the vendors, which is a little different model than we've seen in the past. And that's where multi cloud tends to come in and multi vendor or heterogeneity in general. Uh we see that very, very commonly in in the enterprise, >>you know, I think you're exactly right. That's classic market evolution in computer industry, you know, multi multi vendors, ultimately when things start to settle in on the massive growth. Hybrid cloud, however, is really kind of where the action is today. And you can see people struggling and innovating around the area of continuous operations and as you can use development develops concept. But the problem is that as they realize, well stuffs in production, it's in the public cloud, its on premises, you know, this, the operational piece starts to rear its head and we gotta fix that. And then they connect the dots a saying, if multi cloud is coming, which people generally agree upon, then they go, if we don't clean this up, we're gonna be screwed. That's generally the consensus that I can that I hear from people so explain, explain with the rise of multi cloud what cross plane is, I mean, what is cross playing about? Give us an overview around this. >>So, I mean there's a lot of ways to describe this, but we see it as like the rise of platform engineering, there's a lot happening around people building their own platforms that layer on top of cloud, which happens to also be multi vendor and multi cloud. So when you're building a platform in an enterprise that can talk to amazon that can talk to Microsoft Azure that can talk to your on premise infrastructure, whether it's VM ware or open shift, you need a, you need a layer that is able to orchestrate and deploy and manage and deal with day to operations, Right. That that is an important piece. It's the piece that is, you know, the way you can enforce your policies, you can set out your controls, whether your compliance, do your compliance and governance and essentially sell sell served uh this to your developers so that they can actually get productive and deploy applications on on this platform. And we see cross plane and what what Kubernetes has started with a control plane as a critical approach in this, in this new platform. In fact, the approach that's kind of pioneered by kubernetes with the kubernetes Api and control plane is now becoming the dominant way of managing infrastructure and deploying applications on it. This is you hear this in different ways, like this is why get off has become popular. Get Office is a really great thing. It's a way to essentially let you manage infrastructure through, you know, configuration that's stored in GIT repositories. But the thing that it connects to is a control plane that's going to make it happen, right? And we see that with kubernetes uh predominantly with kubernetes. Right. And so what cross plane does is lets you extend the getups approach and the management approach that's pioneered by the kubernetes community to the entire surface area of cloud. So not only can you deploy your containers using get apps, you can actually manage through the tops VMS server lists, databases and cloud Hybrid environments. Multi cloud environments. You know, even, you know, your load balances that are on premise could be managed through tops anything that speaks in a p I could be managed to get off if you go through a project like cross plane. Now, that part is that part is where we're seeing the most success right now. We're seeing a lot of people that are adopting these approaches to managing infrastructure while they're building their platforms and they're pulling in cross plains, we're seeing massive end user adoption of cross plane right >>now. I want to get into this. I want to get this impact of the control playing but before we get there I want a real quick while I got you an expert. I know this coupon. You don't need to explain what get upset. Everyone knows what that is. But for the folks that aren't aren't aren't in the community, I want to grab the sound bite if you don't mind. Could you define what is getups? >>Uh huh. So so get up is somewhat of a marketing term. Uh but the way I interpreted is essentially storing your configuration in a git repository. Are you using, you know, uh versioning techniques that are pioneered to manage code, right? Whether using Pr flows, storing things and get doing the collaboration of what changes happen in get and then having that be essentially mirrored to uh control plane that is able to implement the declarative configuration that you've specified. So a good example of this is if you wanted to deploy, say, you know, start up a cluster of kubernetes cluster in the cloud vendor and then run applications on it and then configure it to connect to databases. You can describe your intent and store it and get collaborate with your team members on it, make sure it's all correct. And then through getups pipeline, you're able to take those, you know, essentially, configuration and then apply it via control plane onto your vendor of choice. Right? That's that's the style. It's great because, you know, get is a great place to store configuration. It's a great place to collaborate. There are amazing tools around pr flows, pull request flows. They're amazing tools for audit ability and versioning and you get to leverage all of those when you are deploying infrastructure that runs your entire >>enterprise. Yeah. And I would also add to that. I I explain it simply for people that aren't in the weeds on the tech is think of it like a QA for srs it's like you need to manage the infrastructure because we're talking about devops infrastructure as code, we're programming infrastructure. So you've got to have some sort of process. And I think this brings up my next point about this control plane, because you mentioned um Cross plans has these nice has this nice uh program to it. Most people write their own code, they'll like they'll they'll like do homegrown work to create in their platform, mainly because there's gaps in there. Can you comment on how you guys are different than someone saying? I'm just gonna write my own code and do my own thing, my own platform team. I don't need cosplaying what I need you for. I'm gonna do it myself. >>So what we see predominantly is folks that are doing get ops or infrastructure as code and setting up pipelines for their compute workloads and specifically for containers. Right. And then, like you said, they're actually writing homegrown scripts or doing Tara forum or doing other things that are on the side to deploy. The other parts, uh including, you know, state full workloads or things that are running across a I M L on premise, hybrid, all of that stuff is done organically on the side of this beautiful path. Forget ops right. What we're doing with cross plane is essentially letting you bring all of the things that you're managing organically into the same pipelines with get offs. So you're able to actually normalize on a single approach for management for orchestration of infrastructure and applications. So you're you're able to, you know, get rid of your custom scripts and use a P I. S to define what your developers should do. You're able to, you know, use the mechanisms that are in the tools that are available to you forget ups and for the in the company's ecosystem to manage the entire surface area of, you know, infrastructure that you're managing within the enterprise in a consistent way. Right? That's where cross money comes in cross plane enables you to extend the control plane of kubernetes to manage everything that's offered by amazon and Microsoft and google and VM ware and open shift and red hat, Everything else can become falls into the same orchestrator, the same control plane that's managing it all and you can access it and give it to your developers in a safe way using, you know, get ups like approaches. >>You know, I've heard horror stories where people pushed new codes, trivial stuff and then all of a sudden breaks because um, code or script was written for a different purpose, but the impact was created into a small little dependency, but it's essentially the human error aspect of software. It's like, well we didn't really kind of see that coming, but at that point that script worked. Now this new thing, something trivial and easy breaks because and then it crashes. This is the kind of day to operations >>that very amounting >>about. Is that right? >>That's that's very much that's very much the case. And we see a lot of people kind of normalizing on templates and scripts, you know, where it's like, okay, you want to deploy database, here's a we'll open a ticket. Uh, and then some human runs, uh, you know, a template, a Terror form template, etcetera, that deploys a script and then shuttle credentials back to the developers over email or over slack and then they plug them into their manifest to deploy on through getups, pipelines. That there's a lot of interesting things that are happening and what we we want to do is to prevent the human error. To put the guard rails in place is essentially arrive at a consistent approach for all of it. Your legacy workloads, your multi cloud workloads, your hybrid workloads, your the little system that's sitting on the side. You can, you can do, you can essentially normalize on using a single approach to manage all of it. One that is safe, that you can give to developers directly there. It has all the guardrails in place, has policy and controls factored in and is exposed through an api that's the part that I think is uh, you know, leads to the largest, most scalable platforms in the world. >>You know, I think that's just natural evolution to us as your customers and enterprises get visibility on the operational standards like, Okay, let's lock that input. The guard rails down. Makes a lot of sense. I gotta ask you on the enterprise adoption pieces, something that we've been covering on silicon angle on the cube this year is looking at the mainstream adoption of kubernetes and whatnot and the rest of the cloud native. It's certainly with Covid, it's accelerated everything. How is the enterprise adoption of cross plane changing? Uh is a game that kind of momentum you expected when you started the project a few years ago? >>Um We're very pleasantly surprised by the adoption, especially in the last six months since we declared cross plane one point. Oh, it has reached a maturity level now that it's actually in Fortune 100 massive production deployments in Fortune 100 companies. Um This is why we're actually, you know, taking to the next level of C N C F, we're also proud of the ecosystem convergence on it, so we're seeing the cloud providers, working with all of them on ensuring that Crossman can address their infrastructure and we're seeing main, the community rally around us. Uh We think the ecosystem part is super interesting for cross money, as you can imagine having an orchestrator control plane that's able to, you know, address the entire surface area of infrastructure offered by all these different vendors requires the vendors to be involved. Right? Uh and so both, uh, it's a two sided network. Both the ecosystem, you know, adoption and the end user adoption are important for cross plane and we're seeing like massive traction on both right >>now. That's awesome. Traditionally, the the adoption arises that users want more things actually enterprise. They they want everything every nook and cranny, they want every feature, they want every integration. I mean they prioritize but, but as you get more, it's not just like a consumer product, although it is cloud native and you've got that, but there's, there's certain things that are table stakes and then there's innovation, but they really want the well known integrations, um, and support and so forth. How is cross playing in the community responding to the challenges as you guys get more popular and as the standards become clear around multi cloud? >>Yeah, I mean, this is the beauty of open source. I mean, we're seeing a lot of different folks contributing to open source. The majority of contributors right now to cross plane are outside of a pound. The company that started cross plane and essentially donated C N C. F. We're seeing folks that are coming in and adding the resources that they are needing, um, or adding features, really significant features to the code base and improving, which is, you know, again, it's the network effect around open source and it's just unbelievable to see and, and I'm able to see it happen and happen so quickly around the project. >>That's awesome. Well something great to have you on, your always great to talk to your super smart, we've had many great conversations in person on camera on the cube. Now, remote CNC F is again um doing such a great job with the um, the open source and now with Coop Con and cloud, Native Con, the open hybrid cloud and now cross cloud, multi cloud, whatever you wanna call it, it's happening. So I gotta ask you with respect to kubernetes because you know, we were all having beers and open stack that time we write, cooper is going to be hot, I think how many years ago that was, um I think you are kind of hanging around with me and robert and others. Um, Kubernetes was just an idea it was developing. Now it's obviously mainstream. The question that I get a lot now is how do I manage and deploy kubernetes in an open hybrid cloud to take advantage of the current state of the art, Open software and commercial opportunities and be positioned to take advantage of multi cloud. In other words, they want the future of multi cloud, but they've got to address the open hybrid cloud. So how do I do that? What's your what's your advice? >>You know, honestly, uh reflecting on the success of kubernetes, I I have a you know, maybe a controversial answer to your question. >>I think >>Kubernetes will be remembered for its control plane and its ability to manage infrastructure and applications in a general way, and not for the fact that it's a container orchestrator In 10 years, we'll probably look at kubernetes and say it's true superpower is the fact that it revolutionized how we manage infrastructure and applications using this declarative approach, using this control plane approach uh to management. And the fact that it's managing the fact that it started out with just containers is well, we'll probably be a historical thing. Uh so so so in some ways, you know, to kind of to kind of go back to your question, I'd say yes. I think kubernetes is reached mainstream in the in the container space, but we now have two uncontained, arise it and use it for management, managing infrastructure everywhere in a multi cloud and a you know, in a hybrid environment as well. >>Well, I mean that's a great point. First, I don't think that's radical. I'm on the record years ago saying that I saw it as the TCP I P moment for cloud where you have interoperability and what you're getting and I think that's so interesting right now and I think everyone is kind of, it's the hidden secrets kind of like the land grab, everyone's trying to go for us. Customers just want a provision and manage cloud infrastructure and program it with applications. I mean just think about that general basic concept. Right? I want to provision, I don't want to have to have meetings, no waterfall know that. I want to be agile. Yeah, I want operation, I want security, I want all that big 10. That's kind of where the puck is going >>very much. Self, self service is a really critical part and the part that um is part of the kubernetes uh kind of design is you developers just want a database or they wanna cash to run their application alongside their application. They don't really need to understand all the security details and networking and be pcs and everything else. And so if you give them an A. P. I just like kubernetes does that tells them. Okay, look, if you want a pot or if you want a database or if you want to cash, here's the A. P. I use, use whatever framework you want, use any language you want. And then we've got all the guardrails built in behind the A. P. I line, just, you know, through getups or not deploy this thing, provision it and then the control plane takes care of the rest. That's the, that's the path we're on as an industry, >>whatever you wanna call it, getups, cross cloud, it's unlimited cloud resource at scale. That's what customers want to do. The markets evolving superfast tons of opportunity for entrepreneurs, tons of evidence for enterprises who are themselves innovating. Again, another big theme here. I'll give you the final word around this user generated open source paradigm, what they've always been involvement now, more than ever, you start to see that, I don't know, maybe second generation, maybe third generation end user inside companies contributing to projects and driving this. This is an interesting dynamic. No one's really reporting this, your thoughts on this end user driven projects. >>We're seeing, we're seeing a lot of end users get involved in projects like cross plane. I mean, it's amazing. It's like companies that are, you know, directionally, they're all, you know, when they're modernizing, they're all heading down about that's open source or even towards cloud native projects. Right. And so it's what we see is they typically get involved initially by just asking questions and, you know, reporting issues and asking for features. And then within within a few months you see actual like meaningful contributions come in two projects. Right. And so I mean there's nothing speaks uh, nothing, nothing says their work. You know, they're committed more than just submitting a pull request where they've spent hours weeks making changes to a project. Right. And and that's happening across the entire, you know, ecosystem around cloud Native. It's, it's what makes it so powerful, >>awesome. But some great to have this conversation. Great insights. Thanks for sharing the update on cross plane and your vision around this, you know, provisioning new infrastructure, having this control, universal control plan. I think this is where everyone is talking about having that value and the scale sets up automation. You know, it just brings everything to the next, next gen, next level of capability. So I appreciate taking the time. Thanks for coming in. >>Thanks john Yeah, good. Good to be back on the, on the cube. >>Great to see you. Okay. This is the Cube coverage of coop con 21 virtual cloud native Khanum jaan for your host with the cube. Thanks for watching. Mhm.

>>from around the globe. >>It's the cube with coverage of Kublai khan and cloud Native >>Con, Europe 2021 Virtual >>brought to you by >>red hat, cloud >>Native Computing foundation >>and ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of coupon 21 cloud native con 21 part of the C N C s annual event this year. It's Virtual. Again, I'm john Kerry host of the cube and we have two great guests from the C N C. F. Cheryl Hung VP of ecosystems and Katie Manji who's the ecosystem advocate for C N C F. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you. I wish we were in person soon, maybe in the fall. Cheryl Katie, thanks for coming on. >>Um, definitely hoping to be back in person again soon, but john great to see you and great to be back on the >>cube. You know, I have to say one of the things that really surprised me is the resilience of the community around what's been happening with the virtual in the covid. Actually, a lot of people have been, um, you know, disrupted by this, but you know, the consensus is that developers have used to been working remotely and virtually in a home and so not too much disruption, but a hell of a lot of productivity. You're seeing a lot more cloud native, um, projects, you're seeing a lot more mainstreaming and the enterprise, you're starting to see cloud growth, just a really kind of nice growth. And we've been saying for years, rising tide floats, all boats, Cheryl, but this year you're starting to see real mainstream adoption with cloud native and this has really been part of the work of the community you guys have done. So what's your take on this? Because we're going to be coming out of this Covid pretty soon. There's a post covid light at the end of the tunnel. What's your view? >>Yeah, definitely, fingers crossed on that. I mean, I would love Katie to give her view on this. In fact, because she came from Conde Nast and American Express, both huge companies that were adopting have adopted cloud Native successfully. And then in the middle of the pandemic, in the middle of Covid, she joined CN CF. So Katie really has a view from the trenches and Katie would love to hear your thoughts. >>Yeah, absolutely. Uh, definitely cloud native adoption when it comes to the tooling has been more permanent in the enterprises. And that has been confirmed of my role at American Express. That is the role I moved from towards C N C F. But the more surprising thing is that we see big companies, we see banks and financial organization that are looking to adopt open source. But more importantly, they're looking for ways to either contribute or actually to direct it more into these areas. So from that perspective, I've been pretty much at the nucleus of enterprise of the adoption of cloud Native is definitely moving, it's slow paced, but it's definitely forward moving as well. Um and now I think while I'm in the role with C N C F as an ecosystem advocate and leading the end user community, there has been definitely uh the community is growing um always intrigued to find out more about the cloud Native usage is one of the things that I find quite intriguing is the fact that not one cloud native usage, like usage of covering just one platform, which is going to be called, the face is going to be the same. So it's always intriguing to find new use cases, find those extremist cases as well, that it really pushes the community forward. >>I want to do is unpack. The end user aspect of this has been a hallmark of the CNC F for years, always been a staple of the organization. But this year, more than ever it's been, seems to be prominent as people are integrating in what about the growth? I mean from last year this year and the use and user ecosystem, how have you guys seen the growth? Is there any highlights because have any stats and or observations around how the ecosystem is growing around the end user piece? >>Sure, absolutely. I mean, I can talk directly about C N C F and the C N C F. End user community, much like everything else, you know, covid kind of slowed things down, so we're kind of not entirely surprised by that, But we're still going over 2020 and in fact just in the last few months have brought in some really, really big names like Peloton, Airbnb, Citibank, um, just some incredible organizations who are, who have really adopted card native, who have seen the success and the benefits of it. And now we're looking to give back to the community, as Katie said, get involved with open source and be more than just a passive consumer of the technologies, but actually become leaders in their own right, >>Katie talk about the dynamic of developers that end user organizations. I mean, you have been there, you're now you've been on both sides of the table if you will not to the sides of the table, it's more like a round table if you will, but community driven. But traditional, uh, end user organizations, not the early adopters, not the hyper scale is, but the ones now are really embedding hybrid, um, are changing how I t to how modern applications being built. That's a big theme in these mainstream organizations. What's the dynamic going on? What's your view? >>I think for any organization, the kind of the core, what moves the organization towards cloud Native is um pretty much being ahead of your competitors. And now we have this mass of different organization of the cloud native and that's why we see more kind of ice towards this area. So um definitely in this perspective when it comes to the technology aspect, companies are looking to deploy complex application in an easier manner, especially when it comes to pushing them to production system securely faster. Um and continuously as well. They're looking to have this competitive edge when it comes to how can they quickly respond to customer feedback? And as well they're looking for this um hybrid element that has been, has been talked about. Again, we're talking about enterprise is not just about public cloud, it's about how can we run the application security and getting both an element of data centers or private cloud as well. And now we see a lot of projects which are balancing around that age but more importantly there is adoption and where there's adoption, there is a feedback loop and that's how which represents the organic growth. >>That's awesome. Cheryl like you to define what you mean when you say end user driven open source, what does that mean? >>Mm This is a really interesting dynamic that I've seen over the last couple of years. So what we see is that more and more of the open source project, our end users who who are solving their own problems and creating their own projects and donating these back to the community. An early example of this was Envoy and lift and Yeager from Uber but Spotify also recently donated backstage, which is a developer portal which has really taken off. We've also got examples from Intuit Donating Argo. Um I'm sure there are some others that I've just forgotten. But the really interesting thing I see about this is that class classically right. Maybe a few years ago, if you were an end user organization, you get involved through a vendor, you'd go to a red hat or something and say, hey, you fix this on my behalf because you know that's what I'm paying you to do. Whereas what I see now is and user saying we want to keep this expertise in house and we want to be owners of our own kind of direction and our own fate when it comes to these open source projects. And that's been a big driver for this trend of open source and user driven, open source. >>It's really the open model is just such a great thing. And I think one of the interesting thing is that fits in with a lot of people who want to work from mission driven companies, but here there's actually a business benefit as you pointed out as in terms of the dynamic of bringing stuff to the community. This is interesting. I'm sure that the ability to do more collaboration, um, either hiring or contributing kind of increases when you have this end user dynamic because that's a pretty big decision to donate and bring something into the open source. What's the playbook though? If I'm sitting in an end user organization like american express Katie or a big company, say, hey, you know, we really developed this really killer use cases niche to us, but we want to bring it to the community. What do they do? Is there like a, like a manager? Do they knock on someone's door? Zara repo is, I mean, how does someone, I mean, how does an end user get this done? >>Mm. Um, I think one of the best resources out there is called the to do group, which is a organization underneath the Linux foundation. So it's kind of a sister group to C N C F, which is about open source program offices. And how do you formalize such an open source program? Because it's pretty easy to say, oh well just put something on get hub. But that's not the end of the story, right? Um, if you want to actually build a community, if you want other people to contribute, then you do actually have to do more than just drop it and get up and walk away. So I would say that if you are an end user company and you have created something which scratches your own itch and you think other people could benefit from it then definitely come. And like you could email me, you could email Chris and chick who is the ceo of C N C F and just get in touch and sort of ask around about what are the things that you could do in terms of what you have to think about the licensing, How do you develop a community governance program, um, trademark issues, all of these things. >>It's interesting how open source is growing so much now, chris has got so much action going on. New verticals are opening up, you know, so, so much action Cheryl you had posted on the internet predictions for cloud native, which I found interesting because there's so much action going on, you have to break things out into pillars, tech devops and ecosystem, each one kind of with a slew event of key trends. So take us through the mindset, why break it out like that? You got tech devops and ecosystem tradition that was all kind of bundled in one. Why? Why the pillars? And is it because there's so much action, what's, what's the basis behind the prediction? >>Um so originally this was just a giant list of things I had seen from talking to people and reading around and seeing what people are talking about on social media. Um And when, once I invested at these 10, I thought about what, what does this actually mean for the people who are going to look at this list and what should they care about? So I see tech trends as things related to tools, frameworks. Um, perhaps architects I see develops as people who are more as a combination of process, things that a combination of process and people and culture best practices and then ecosystem was kind of anything else broader than that. Things that happened across organizations. So you can definitely go to my twitter, you can go to at boy Chevelle, O I C H E R Y L and take a look at this and This is my list of 10. I would love to hear from you whether you agree with it, whether you think there are other things that I've missed or what would your >>table. I love. I love the top. Well, first of all I think this is very relevant. The one that I would ask you on is more rust and cloud native. That's the number one item. Um, I think cross cloud is definitely totally happening, I think people are really starting to think about that and so I'd love to get your comments on that. But I think the thing that jumped out at me was the devops piece because this is a trend that I've been seeing a lot more certainly even in academic institutions, for folks in school, right? Um going to college for computer science and engineering. This idea of, sorry, large scale, cloud is not so much an IT practice, it's much more of a cloud native mindset. So I think this idea of of ops so much more about scale. I use SRE only because I can't think of a better word around it and certainly the edge pieces with kubernetes, I think this is the, I think the biggest story to me that's where all the action seems to be when I talk to people around what they're working on in terms of training new people on boarding and what not Katie, you're shaking your head, you're like Yeah, what's your thoughts? Yeah, >>I have definitely been uh through all of these stages from having a team where the develops, I think it's more of a culture of like a pattern to adopt within an organization more than anything. So I've been pre develops within develops and actually during the evolution of it where we actually added an s every team as well. Um I think having these cultural changes with an organization, they are necessary, especially they want to iterate iterate quicker and actually deliver value to the customers with minimal agency because what it actually does there is the collaboration between teams which were initially segregated. And that's why I think there is a paradigm nowadays which is called deficit ops, which actually moves security more to its left. This has been very popular, especially in the, in the latest a couple of months. Lots of talks around it and even there is like a security co located event of Yukon just going to focus on that mainly. Um, but as well within the Devil's area, um, one of the models that has been quite permanent has been get ups as well, which pretty much uses the power of gIT repositories to describe the state of the applications, how it actually should be within the production system and within the cloud native ecosystem. There are two main tools that pretty much leave this area and there's going to be Argo City which has been donated by, into it, which is our end user And we have flux as well, which has been donated by we've works and both of these projects currently are within the incubation stage, which pretty much by default um showcases there is a lot of adoption from the organizations um more than 100 of for for some of them. So there is a wider adoption um, and everything I would like to mention is the get ups working group which has emerged I think between que con europe and north America last year and that again is more to define a manifest of how exactly get expert and should be adopted within organizations. So there is a lot of, I would say initiatives and this is further out they confirmed with the tooling that we have within the ecosystem. >>That's really awesome insight. I want to just, if you don't mind follow up on that, why is getups so important right now, Is it because the emphasis of security is that the emphasis of more scale, Is it just because it's pretty much kid was okay just because storing it over there, Is it because there's so much more inspections are going on around it? I mean code reviews have been going on for a long time. What's what's the big deal? Why is it so hot right now? In your opinion? >>I think there is definitely a couple of aspects that are quite important. You mentioned security, that's definitely one of them with the get ups battery. And there is a pool model rather than a push model. So you have the actual tool, for example, our great city of flux watching for repository and if any changes are identified is going to pull those changes automatically. So the first thing that we actually can see from this model is that we always will have a delta between what's within our depositors and the production system. Usually if you have a pool model, you can pull it uh can push the changes towards death staging environment but not always the production because you have the change window sometimes with the get ups model, you'll always be aware of what's the Dell. Can you have quite a nice way to visualize that especially for your city, which has the UI as well as well with the get ups pattern, there is less necessity to share the credentials with the actual pipeline tool. All of because Argo flux there are natively build around communities, all the secrets are going to be residing within the cluster. There is no need to share any extra credentials or an extra permissions with external tools as well. There are scale, there is again with kids who have historical data points which allows us to easily revert um to stable points of the applications in the past. So multiple, multiple benefits I would say, but definitely secured. I think it's one of the main one and it has been talked about quite a lot as well. >>A lot of these end user stories revolve around these dynamics and the ones you guys are promoting and from your members as well as in the community at large is I hate to use the word day two operations, but that really is the issue like okay, we're up and running. I want more automation. This is again tops kind of vibe here where it's like okay we gotta go troubleshoot all this, but it should be working as more stuff comes in. This becomes more and more the dynamic is that is that because of just more edges, more things, more devices, what's what's the what's the push behind all these stories around this automation and day to operation things? What do you guys think? >>I think, I think the expectations are getting higher and higher to be honest, a few years ago it was enough to use containers and start using the barest minimum, you know, to orchestrate those containers. But now what we see is that, you know, it's easy to choose the technology, it's easy to install it and even configure it. But as you said, john those data operations are really, really hard. For example, one of the ones that we've seen up and coming and we care about from CNCF is kubernetes on the edge. And we see this as enabling telco use cases and 5G and IOT and really, really broad, difficult use cases that just a few years ago would have been nice on impossible, Katie, your zone, Katie Katie, you also talk about edge. Right? >>Absolutely. I think I I really like to watch some of the talks that keep going, especially given by the big organizations that have to manage thousands or tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of customers. And they have to deliver a cluster to these to these teams. Now, from their point of view, they pretty much have to manage clusters at scale. There is definitely the edge out there and they really kind of pushing the technology towards how can we get closer to the physical devices within the customers? Kind of uh, let's say bubble or area in surface. So age has been definitely something which has been moving a lot when it comes to the cloud native ecosystem. We've had a lot of projects moving to towards the incubation stage, carefree as has been there, um, for for a while and again, has a lot of adoption is known for its stability. But another thing that I would like to mention is that now currently we have a lot of projects that are age focus but within some box, so there is again, a lot of potential if there's gonna be a higher demand for this, I would expect this tools move from sandbox to incubation and even graduation. So that's definitely something which, uh, it's moving and there is dynamism around it. >>Well, Cheryl kid, you guys are awesome, love the work you're doing. I gotta ask the final question since you brought it up about the expectations. Cheryl, if you guys could both end the segment with the comment around expectations as the industry and companies and developers and participants continue to grow. What, what's changed with C N C F koo Kahne cloud, native khan as the expectation has been growing and the stakes are higher too, frankly, I mean you've got security, you mentioned these things edge get up, so you start to see the maturation of this ecosystem, what's new and what's expected of you guys, What do you see and how are you guys organizing? >>I think we can definitely say the ecosystem has matured a lot compared to a few years ago. Same with CNTF, same with Cuba con, I think the very first cubic on I went to was Berlin, which was about 1800 people. Um, the kind of mind boggling to see how much, how much it's grown since then. I mean one of the things that we try and do is to expand the number of people who can reach the community. So for example, we launched kubernetes community days and we launched, that means community organized events in africa, for example, for people who couldn't come to large events in north America or europe, um we also launching things to help students. I actually love talking to students because quite often now you talk to them and they say, oh, I've never run software in anything other than a container. You're like, yeah, well this was a new thing, this is brand new a few years ago and now you can be 18 and have never tried anything else. So it's pretty amazing. But yeah, there's definitely, there's always space to go to the community. >>Yeah, once you go cloud native, it's like, you know, like you've never load Lennox on them server before. I mean, what, what's going on? Get your thoughts as expectations go higher And certainly there's more in migration, not only for young folks because they're jumping into this was that engineering meets computer science is now cross discipline. You're seeing scale, you mentioned scaling up those are huge factors, you've got younger, you got cross training, you got cybersecurity and you've got Fin tech ops that's chris is working on so much is happening. What, what, what you guys keep up with your, how you gonna raise the ball? >>Absolutely. I think there's definitely technology moving forward, but I think nowadays there is a more need for actual end user stories while at the beginning of cube cons there is a lot of focus on the technical aspects. How can you fix this particular problem of deploying between two clusters are deploying at scale. There is like a lot of technical aspects nowadays they're looking for the stories because as I mentioned before, not one platform is gonna be the same when it comes to cloud native and I think there's still, the community is still trying to look for some patterns or some standards and we actually can see like especially when it comes to the open standards, we can see this moving within um the observe abilities like that application delivery will have for example cross plane and Que Bella we have open metrics and open tracing as well, which focuses on observe ability and all of the interfaces that we had around um, Cuban directory service men and so forth. All of these pretty much try to bring a benchmark, making it easier to integrate these special use cases um when it comes to actual extreme technology kind of solutions that you need to provide and um, I was mentioning the end user stories that are there more in demand nowadays mainly because these are very, very necessary from the community like for example the six or the project maintainers, they require feedback to actually move forward. And as part of that, I would like to mention that we've recently soft launched the injuries lounge, which really focuses on this particular aspect of end user stories. We try to pretty much question our end users and really understand what really moved them to adopt, coordinative, what keeps them on this path and what like future challenges they would like to um to tackle or are they facing the moment I would like to solve in the future. So we're trying to create the speed back home between the inducers and the projects out there. So I think this is something which needs to be a bit more closely together these two spheres, which currently are segregated, but we're trying to just solve that. >>Also you guys do great work, great job. Cheryl wrap us up real, take a minute to put a plug in for the C. N. C. F. In the ecosystem. What's the fashion this year? What's hot? What's the trend? What are you guys doing? Share some quick update on what's going on the ecosystem from your perspective? >>Yeah, I mean the ecosystem, even though I just said that we're maturing, you know, the growth has not stopped now, what we're seeing is these as Casey was saying, you know, more specific use cases, even bigger, even more demanding environments, even more kind of crazy use cases. I mean I love the story from the U. S. Department of Defense about putting kubernetes on their fighter jets and putting ston fighter jets, you know, it's just absurd to think about it, but I would say definitely come and be part of the community, share your stories, share what you know, help other people um if you are end user of these technologies then go to see NCF dot io slash and user and just come and be part of our community, you know, meet your peers and hear what everybody else is doing >>well. Having kubernetes and stu on jets, that's the Air Force, I would call that technical edge Katie to you know, bring, bring back the edge carol kitty, thank you so much for sharing the inside ecosystem is robust. Rising tide is floating all the boats as we always say here in the cube, it's been great to watch and continue to watch the rise. I think it's just the beginning, we're starting to see post pandemic visibility cloud native, more standards, more visibility into the economics and value and great to see the ecosystem rising up with the end users as well. So congratulations and thanks for coming up. >>Thank you so much, john it's a pleasure, appreciate >>it. Thank you for having us, john >>Great to have you on. I'm john for with the cube here for Coop Con Cloud, Native Con 21 virtual soon we'll be back in real life. Thanks for watching. Mhm.

>>from the >>Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders around the globe. >>These are cloud native insights. Hi, I'm stupid, man. And welcome to Episode one of Cloud Native Insights. So this is a new program brought to you by Silicon Angle Media's The Cube. I am your host stew minimum, and we're going to be digging in to cloud native and, of course, cloud native like cloud before kind of a generic term. If you look at it online, there's a lot of buzzwords. There's a lot of jargon out there, and so we want to help. Understand what? This is what This isn't on And really happy to welcome back to the program to help me kick it off you piss car. He is an industry analyst. His company is T l A Tech. You. Thanks so much for joining us. >>Thanks, Dave. Glad we're >>all right. And one of the reasons I wanted you to help me kick this off. Not only have you been on the Cube, you know your background. I met you when you were the cto of a service provider over there in Europe, where you're Netherlands based. You were did strategy for a very large ah, supermarket chain also. And you've been on the program that shows like docker con in the past. You work in the cloud native space you've done consulting for. Some of the companies will be talking about today. But you help me kick this off a little bit. When you heard here the term cloud native. Does that mean anything to you? Did that mean anything back in your previous roles? You know, help us tee that up. >>So, you know, it kind of gives off a certain direction and where people are going. Right. Um so to me, Cloud native is more about the way you use cloud, not necessarily about the cloud services themselves. So, you know, for instance, I'll take the example of the supermarket. They had a big e commerce presence. And so we were come getting them to a place where they could, in smaller teams, deploy software in a faster, more often and in a safer way so that teams could work independently of each other, work on, you know, adding business value, whatever that may be for any kind of different company. That's a cloud native to me, Connie means using that to the fullest extent, using those services available to you in a way organizationally and culturally. That makes sense to you, you know, Go wherever you need to go. Be that release every hour or, you know, transform your s AP environment to something that is more nimble, more flexible, literally more agile. So what cloud native means so many things to so many people? Because it's immediately is not directly about the technology, but how you actually use it. >>Um, and u Pua and I are in, you know, strong agreement on this thing. One is you've noticed we haven't said kubernetes yet. We haven't talked about containers because cloud native is not about the tooling. We're, you know, strong participants in you know, the CN CF activities. The Cloud Native Computing Foundation, cube con and cloud native is a huge show. Great momentum one. We're big fans of too often people would conflate and they'd say, Oh, cloud native equals. I'm doing containers and I've, you know, deployed kubernetes one of the challenges out there. You talk about companies, you know? Well, you know, I had a cloud first initiative and I'm using multi cloud and all this stuff. It's like, Well, are you actually leveraging these capabilities, or did I shove things in something I'd railed about for the last couple of years? You talk about repatriation, and repatriation is often I went to go do cloud. I didn't really understand what I was doing. I didn't understand how to leverage that stuff. And I crawled back to what I was doing before because I knew how to do that. Well, so, you know, I think you said it really well. Cloud native means I'm taking advantage of the services. I'm doing things in a much more modern way. The thing I've loved talking to practitioners and one of things I want to do on this program absolutely is talk to practitioners is how have you gone through things organizationally, there are lots of things right now. Talk about like, thin ops. And, of course, all the spin off from Dev Ops and Dev SEC ops. And, like, how are we breaking through silos? How we're modernizing our environments, how we're taking advantage of new ways of doing things and new services. So yeah, I guess you You know, there are some really cool tools out there. Those are awesome things. But, you know, I love your viewpoint. Your perspective on often people in tech are like, Hey, I have this really cool new tool that I can use, you know? Can I take advantage of that? You know, do I do things in a new way, or do I just kind of take my old way and just make things maybe a little incrementally better? Hopefully with some new tooling. >>Oh, yeah. I mean, I totally agree. Um, you know, tooling is cool. Let me let me start by saying that I You know, I'm an engineer by heart, so I love tinkering with new new stuff. So I love communities I love. Um, you know that a new terra form released, for instance, I love seeing competition in the container orchestration space. I love driving into K native server lists. You know, all those technologies I like, But it is a matter of, you know, what can you do with them, right. So, for instance, has she corporate line of mine? I work on their hashtag off. Even they offer kind of Ah, not necessarily an alternative, but kind of adjacent approach to you what the CNC F is doing, and even in those cases, and I'm up specifically calling out Hashi Corp. But I'm kind of giving. The broader overview is, um, it doesn't actually matter what to use, Even though it'll help me. It'll make me happy just to play around with them. But those new tools have to mean something. They have to solve a particular problem. You have either in speed of delivery or consistency of delivery or quality of service, the thing you are building for your customers. So it has to mean something. So back in the day when I started out in engineering 15 years ago, a lot of the engineering loss for the sake of engineering just because, you know you could create a piece of infrastructure a little faster, but there was no actual business value to be out there. That's a lot of the engineering kind of was stuck inside of its own realm, or as what you see now is, if you can use terraform and actually get all of you know the potential out of you, it allow you to release offer more quickly because you're able to stand up infrastructure for that software more quickly. And so you know, we've kind of shifted from back in the in the attic or in the basement doing I t. Stuff that no one really understands. The one kind of perceives the business value of it into the realm of okay, If we can deploy this faster or we don't even need to use a server, we can use server lists. Then we have an advantage in the marketplace. You know, whatever marketplace that is, whatever application we're talking about. And so that's the difference to me. And that was that. You know, that's what CN CF is doing to me. That is what has she Corpus is helping build. That is what you know. A lot of companies that built, for instance, a managed kubernetes service. But from nine spectral crowd, all those kinds of companies, they will help, you know, a given customer to speed up their delivery, to not care about the underlying infrastructure anymore. And that's what this is all about to me. And that is what cloud native means use it in a way that I don't actually have to do the toil off the engineering anymore. There's loads of smart people working for, you know, the Big Three cloud vendors. There's loads of people working for those manage service providers, but he's used them so that you can speed up your delivery, create better software created faster, make customers happy. >>Yeah, it's a lot to unpack there. I want to talk a little bit about that landscape, right When you talk about, you know, cloud native, maybe a little compare contrast I think about, you know, the wave of Dev ops and for often people like, you know, Dev Ops. You know, that's a cultural movement. But there's also tooling that I could buy to help me along that weighs automation, you know, going agile methodology. See, I CD are all things that you're like. Well, is this part of Dev Ops, isn't it? There's lots of companies out there that we saw rows rode that wave of Dev ops. And if you talk about cloud native, you know the first thing you know, you start with the cloud providers. So when I hear you talking about, how do we get rid of things that we don't need to worry about? Well, for years, we heard Amazon Web services talk about getting rid of undifferentiated heavy lifting. And it's something that we're huge fans off you talk about. What is the business outcome? It's not. Hey, I went from, you know, a stand alone server to I did virtualized environments. And now I'm looking container ization or serverless. What can I get rid of? How do I take advantage of native services and all of those cloud platforms? One of the huge values there is, it isn't Hey, I deployed this and maybe it's a little bit cheaper and maybe a little better. But there's that that is really the center of where innovation is happening not only from the platform providers they're setting themselves, but from that ecosystem. And I guess I'll put it out there. One of the things I would like to see from Cloud Native should be that I should be able to take care of take advantage of innovation wherever it is. So Cloud Native does not mean it must live in the public cloud. It does not necessarily mean that I'm going, you know, full bore, multi cloud everywhere. I've had some great debates with Corey Quinn, on the Cube Online and the like, because if you look at customer environments today, you know, yes, they absolutely have their data centers. They're leveraging, typically more than one public cloud. SAS is a big part of the picture and then edge computing and pulls everything away into a much more distributed architecture. So, you know, I'm glad you brought up. You know, Hashi, a company you're working with really interesting. And if you talk about cloud native, it's there. They're not trying to get people to, oh, use multiple clouds because it's good for us. It's they. Hey, the reality is that you're probably using multiple clouds, and whether it's one cloud or many clouds or even in your data center, we have a set of tools that we can offer you. So you know, Hashi, you mentioned, you know, terra form vault. You know, the various tooling is that they have open source, you know, big play in this environment, both under the CN CF umbrella and beyond. Give us a little bit as to, you know, where are the interesting places where you see either vendors and technology today, or opportunity to make these solutions better for users. >>So that's an interesting question, because I literally don't know where to begin. The spectrum is so so broad, it's all start off with a joke on this, right? You cannot buy that helps. But the vendors were sure try and sell it to you. So it's kind of where you know, the battle is is raging on its getting foothold into an organization. Um, and you see that? You know, you see companies like, how is she doing that? Um, they started out with open source tooling that kind of move into the enterprise realm. Um, you solve the issues that enterprises usually have, and that's what the club defenders will trying to you as although you know, the kind of kick start you with a free service and then move you up into their their stack. And that's you know, that's where Cloud native is kind of risky because the landscape is so fragmented, it is really hard to figure out. Okay, this tool, it actually solves my use case versus this one doesn't. But again, it's in the ecosystem in this ecosystem already, so let's let's still use it just because it's easier. Um, but it does boil the disk a lot of the discussion down into. Basically, it's a friction. How much effort does it take to start using something? Because that's where and that's basically the issues enterprises are trying to solve. It's around friction, and it used to be friction around, you know, buying servers and then kind of being stuck with him for 4 to 5 years. But now it is the vendor lock in where people in organizations have to make tough decisions. You know, what ecosystems am I going to buy into it? It's It's also where a lot of the multi cloud marketing comes from on the way down to get you into a specific ecosystem on your end companies kind of filling that gap, helping you manage that complexity and how she corpus is one of those examples in my book that help you manage that multi cloud ah challenge. So but yeah, But it is all part of that discussion around friction. >>Yeah, and I guess I would start if you say, as you said, it is such a broad spectrum out there. If you look in the developer tooling marketplace is, there's lots of people that have, you know, landscapes out there. So CN cf even has a great landscape. And you know, things like Security, you no matter wherever I am and everywhere that I am. And there's a lot of effort to try to make sure that I can have something that spans across the environment. Of course, Security, you know, huge issue in general. And right now, Cohen, 19. The global pandemic coming on has been, you know, putting a spotlight on it even more. We know shared responsibility models where security needs to be. Data is at the center of what we're talking about when we've been talking for years about companies going through their transformation, I hadn't talked about, you know, digital transformation. What that means is, at the end of the day, you need to be data driven. So there's lots of companies, you know, big movement and things like ml ops. How can I actually harness my data? I said one of the things I think we got out of the whole big data wave. It was that bit flip from, Oh my God, their data everywhere. And maybe that's a challenge for me. It now becomes an opportunity and often times somewhere that I can have new value or even new business models that we can create around data. So, you know, data security on and everyone is modernizing. So, you know, worry a bit that there is sometimes, you know, cloud native washing. You know, just like everything else. It's, you know, cloud enabled. You know, ai ready from an infrastructure standpoint, you know, how much are you actually leveraging Cloud native? The bar, we always said, is, you know, if you're putting something in your data center, how does that compare against what I could get if I'm doing aws azure or Google type of environment? So I have seen good progress over the last couple of years in what we used to call it Private Cloud. And now it's more Ah, hybrid environment or multi cloud. And it looks and acts and is managed much more like the public cloud at a lot of that. Is that driver for developers? So you know Palmer, you know, developers, developers, developers, you know, absolutely. He was right as to how important that is. And one of the things I've been a little bit hardened at is it used to be. You talked about the enterprise and while the developers were off in the corner and, you know, we need to think about them and help enable them. But now, like the Dev Ops movement, we're trying to break down those silos. You know, developers are much more in the workflow. When I look at tools out there not only get hub, you know, you talked about Hashi, you know, get lab answerable and others. Often they have ways to have nothing to developers. The product owners and others all get visibility into it. Because if you can get, you know, people in the organization all accessing the same work stream the way that they need to have it there. There's goodness there. So I guess final question I have for you is you know, what advice do we have for practitioners themselves? Often, the question is, how do I get from where I've been? So where I'm going, This whole discussion of Cloud native is you know, we spent more than a decade talking about cloud, and it was often the kind of where in the movement and the like So what? I want to tee up with cloud native is discussion, really for the next decade. And you know, if I'm, you know, a c i o If I'm in, i t how do I make sure that I'm ready for these next opportunities while still managing? You know what I have in my own environment. >>So that kind of circles back to where we started this discussion, right? Cloud native and Dev ops and a couple of those methodologies they're not actually about the tooling. They are about what to do with them. Can you leverage them to achieve a goal? And so my biggest advice is Look for that goal. First, have something toward towards because if you have a problem, the solution will present itself. Um, and I'm not saying go look for a problem. The problems, they're already It's a matter of, um, you know, articulating that problem in a way that your developers will actually understand what to do. And then they will go and find the tools that are needed to solve that particular problem. And so we turn this around in a sense that so finally, we are at a point where we can have business problems. Actually, solved by I t in a way that doesn't require, you know, millions of upfront investment or, you know, consultants from an outside company. Your developers are now able to start solving those problems, and it will maybe take a while. They may need some outside help Teoh to figure some stuff out, But the point is, we can now use you know, these cloud resource is these cloud native services in such a small, practical way that we can actually start solving these business problems in a real way. >>Yeah, you actually, earlier this year I've done a series of interviews getting ready for this type of environment. You know, one of the areas I spent a bunch of time trying to dig in. And to be frank, understand has been server lists. So, you know, people very excited about server lists. You know, one of the dynamics always is, You know, everything we're talking about with containers and kubernetes driving them to think about that. I always looked as container ization was kind of moving up the stack in making infrastructure easier. The work for applications, but something like serverless it comes, top down. It's it's more of not the tooling, but how do I build those applications in those environments and not need to think at least as much about the infrastructure? So server lists Absolutely something we will cover, you know, containers, kubernetes what I'm looking for. Always love practitioners love to somebody. You you've been, you know, in that end, user it before startups. Absolutely. We'll be talking to as well as other people you know, in the ecosystem that you want to help, have discussions, have debates. You know, we don't have, you know, a strong. You know, this is the agenda that we have for cloud native, but I really want to help facilitate the dialogue. So I'll give you a final word here. Anything You know, what's exciting you these days when you talk to your peers out there, you know, in general, you know, it can be some tools, even though we understand tools are only a piece of it or any other final tips that you have in this market >>space. Well, I want to kind of go go forward on on your statement earlier about server lists without calling, You know, any specific serverless technology out there specifically, but you're looking at those technologies you'll see, But we're now able to solve those business problems. Um, without actually even needing I t right. So no code low code platforms are very adjacent to you to do serverless movement. Um, and that's where you know, that's what really excites me of this at this point, simply because, you know, we no longer need actual hardcore engineering as a trait Teoh use i t to move the needle forward. And that's what I love about the cloud native movement that it used to be hard. And it's getting simpler in a way also more complex in a way. What we're paying someone else Teoh to solve those issues. So I'm excited to see where you know, no code low code survivalism those the kinds of technologies will take us in the next decade. >>Absolutely wonderful. When you have technology that makes it more globally accessible There, obviously, you know, large generational shifts happening in the workforce. You Thank you so much for joining us, >>actually, Sue. >>All right. And I guess the final call to action really is We are looking for those guests out there, so, you know, practitioners, startups people that have a strong viewpoint. You can reach out to me. My emails just stew Stu at silicon angle dot com where you can hit me up on the twitters. I'm just at stew on there. Also. Eso thank you so much for joining us. Planning to do these in General Weekly cadence. You'll find the articles that go along with these on silicon angle dot com. Of course. All the video on the cube dot net I'm stew minimum in and love to hear more about your cloud Native insights >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

right so with kubernetes the history is we started off with only file systems block is something very new within the past couple releases that actually personally worked on the next piece that we're doing at Red Hat is leading the charge to create CRTs for object storage so it's defining those api's so customers can dynamically provision and manage their object storage with that in addition we recently acquired a company called nuba that does exactly that they're able to have that data mobility through object buckets across many clouds doing the sharding and replication with the ability to do and that's super important because it opens up for our customers to have image streams photos things like that that they typically use within an enterprise and quickly move the data and copy it as they as they need to so we notice that that more and more people want to try their workloads outside of the centralized one centralized data cluster so the big you know term for the last year was the hybrid cloud but it's not just hybrid cloud people coming from also from the iot user space wants to you know containerize their work clothes what wants to put the processing closer and closer to the devices that are actually producing and consuming those data in the users and there is a lot of use cases which should be tackled in in that way and as you all said previously like you Burnett is want developers hearts and minds so api's are stable everybody is using them it will be supported for decades so it's it's natural to try to bring all these tools and and all these platforms that are already you know available to developers try to tackle these new new challenges so that's why last year we reformed the kubernetes at the edge working group trying to you know start with the simple questions because when people come to you and say edge everybody thinks something different from somebody it's in IOT gateway for somebody it's a it's a full-blown you know kubernetes faster it's some telco providers so that's what we're trying to figure out all these and try to form a community because as we saw in the previous cell so for the IOT user space is that complex problems like these are never basically solved by single single company you need open source you need open standards you need the community around it so that people can pick and choose and build a solution to fit their needs yeah yeah so I care a lot about diversity in tech and women in tech more specifically one of the things that I I feel like this community has a lot of very visible women so when I actually looked at the number of contributors by by men and women I was really shocked to find out it was 3 percents it's kind of disappointing it's 3 percent of all the contributors to the all the projects in the CNCs it's only if you look at the 36 projects you look at the number of the people who've made issues commits comments pull requests it's 3 percent women and I think the CSUF has put a lot of effort into the for example of the diversity scholarships so bringing more than 300 people from underrepresented groups to cube corn including 56 here in Barcelona and it has a personal meaning to me because I really got my start through that diversity scholarship to keep calm Berlin two years ago and when I first came to keep on Berlin I knew nobody but just that little first step can go a long way into getting people into feeling like they're part of the community and they have something valuable to give back and then once you're in you're hooked on it and yeah then there's a lot of fun I think the ecosystem may finally be ready for it and this is I feel like it's easy for us to look at examples of the past you know people kind of shake their heads and OpenStack as a cautionary tale or sprawl and you know whatnot but this is a thriving which means growing which means changing which means a very busy ecosystem but like you're pointing out if your enterprises are gonna adopt some of this technology gee they look at it and everyone here was you know eating cupcakes or whatever for the kubernetes 5th birthday to an enterprise just because this got launched in 2014 you know ok June 2014 that sounds kind of new we're still running that mainframe that is still producing business value and actually that's fine I mean I think this maybe is one of the great things about a company like Microsoft is we are our customers like we also respect the fact that if something works you don't just Yolo a new thing out into production to replace it for what reason what is the business value of replacing it and I think for this that's why this kind of UNIX philosophy of the very modular pieces of this ecosystem and we were talking about how them a little earlier but there's also you know draft brigade you know etc like the porter the C NAB spec implementation stuff and this cloud native application bundles which that's a whole mouthful one of the things I like I've been a long history and open source too is if there are things that aren't perfect or things that are maturing a lot of times we're talking about them in public because there is a roadmap and you know people are working on it and we can all go to the repositories and you know see where people are complaining so at a show like this I feel like we do have some level of transparency and we can actually have realism here we I don't think we hear that as much anymore because there is no more barrier to getting the technology it's no longer I get this technology from vendor a and I wish somebody else would support the standard it's like I can get it if I want it I think the competition we typically have aren't about features anymore they're simply my business is driven by software let that's the way I interact with my customer that's the way I collect data for my customers whatever that is I need to do that faster and I need to teach my people to do that stuff so the technology becomes secondary like I have this saying it frustrates people so nice but I'm like there is not a CEO a CIO a CTO that you would talk to that wakes up and says I have a kubernetes problem they all go I have a I have this business problem I have that problem it happens to be software kubernetes is a detail sure I think the NSM is just a first step so the natural service is basically doing a couple of things one is it is simplifying networking so that the consumption paradigm is similar to what you see on the developer l7 layer so if you think SEO and how SEO is changing the game in terms of how you consume layer seven services think of bringing that down to the layer two layer three layer as well so the way a developer would discover services at the l7 layer is the same way we would want developers to discover networking endpoints or networking services or security capabilities that's number one so the language in which you consume needs to be simplified whereas it's whereby it becomes simple for developer to consume the second thing that I touched upon is we don't want developers to think about switches routers subnets BGP reacts van VLAN for me I want to take a little bit more into the idea of multi cloud I've been making a bit of a stink for the past year with a talk called the myths of multi cloud where it's not something I generally advise as a best practice and I'm holding to that fairly well but what I want to do is I won't have conversations with people who are pursuing multi-cloud strategies and figure out first are they in fact pursuing that the same thing that we're defining our terms and talking on the same page and secondly I want to get a little more context and insight into why they're doing that and what that looks like for them is it they want to be able to run different workloads in different places great that's fair the same workload run everywhere the lowest common denominator well let's scratch build a surface a bit and find out why that is bob wise and his team spent a ton of time working on the community and the whole the whole team does right for one of the the biggest contributors to @cd we're hosting birds of a feather we've committed we've contributed back to a fair amount of community projects and I think a lot of them are in fact around how to just make kubernetes work better on AWS and that might be something that we built because uks or it might be something like the like cluster autoscaler right which ultimately people would like to work better with with auto-scaling groups I think we we had the community involvement but I think it's about having a quiet community involvement right that it's it's about chopping wood and carrying water and being present and committing and showing up and having experts and answering questions and being present and things like say groups than it is necessarily having the biggest booth so Joe tremendous progress in five years look look forward for us a little bit you know what what what does you know kubernetes you know 2024 look like for us well you know a lot of folks like to say that you know in five years kubernetes is going to disappear and sometimes they come at this from the sort of snarky angle but other times I think you know it's gonna disappear in terms of like it's gonna be so boring so solid so assumed that people don't talk about it anymore I mean we're here at you know something that you know the the CNC F is part of the Linux Foundation which is great but you know how often do people really focus on the Linux kernel these days it is so boring so solid there's new stuff going on but like clearly all the exciting stuff all the action all the innovation is happening at higher layers and I think we're gonna see something similar happen with kubernetes over time exciting is being here if you rewind five years and tell me I'm ready in Barcelona with with 7,500 of my best friends I would think you were crazy or from Mars this is amazing and I thank everybody who's here who's made this thing possible we have a ton of work to do you know if you feel like you can't figure out what you need to work on come talk to me and we'll figure it out yet for me I just want to give a big thank you to all the maintain a nurse folks like Tim but also you know some other folks who you may not know their name but they're the ones slogging it out and to get up PRQ you know trying to just you know make the project's work in function day today and we're it not for their ongoing efforts we wouldn't have any of this you [Music]

>>live from San Diego, California It's the Q covering Koopa and Cloud Native Cot brought to you by Red Cloud. Native Computing Pounding and its ecosystem >>Welcome back. This is the cubes. Fourth year of coverage at Q. Khan Cloud, Native Con. We're here in San Diego. It's 2019. I'm stewed. Minutemen, my host for this afternoon is Justin Warren and happy to welcome to guests from the newly minted platinum member of the CNC F Net Up. Sitting to my right is that Baldwin, who is the director of Cloud Native and Communities Engineering and sitting to his right is Rob Bhaskar, who's the product product strategy for Kubernetes. And it's also a board member on the CME CF, thank you both for joining us. Thank you. All right, s O, you know, maybe start with you. You know, uh, you know, companies that No, I've got plenty of history with net up there. What I've been hearing from that up last few years is you know, the Corvette has always been software, and it is a multi cloud world. I've been hearing this message before. Kind of the cloud native Trinity's piece was going, Of course, there's been some acquisitions and met up continuing to go through its transformations if you will s o help us understand kind of net ops positioning in this ecosystem >>in communities. Yes. Okay, so what we're doing is we're building a product that large manage cloud native workloads on top of community. So we've solved the infrastructure problem. And that's kind of the old problem. We're bored to death. Talking about that problem, but we try to do is try to provide a single painting class to manage on premise. Workloads and off permits were close. So that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to say it's now more about the AP taxonomy in communities. And then what type of tooling do you build to manage that that application and communities and says what we're building right now? That's where we're headed with hybrid. >>There's a piece of it, though, that does draw from the historical strength of map, Of course. So we're building way have, essentially already in marketing capability that allows you to deploy communities an agnostic way, using pure, open unmodified kubernetes on all of the major public clouds, but also on trump. But over time and some of this is already evident. You'll see it married to the storage and data management capabilities that we draw from the historical NetApp and that we're starting to deploy into those public clouds >>with the idea that you should be able to take a project. So project being the name space, new space, having a certain application in it. So you have multiple deployments. I should be able to protect that name space or that project. I feel to move that and the data goes with it. So they were very data where that's what we're trying to do with our. Our software is, you know, make it very data. Where have that aligned with APS inside of communities, >>So maybe step back for a second. What? One of the one of things we've heard a few times at this show before and was talking about the keynote this morning is it is project over company when it comes to the C N C F Project Project over company. So it's about the ecosystem. The C in C F tries not to be opinionated, so it's okay for multiple projects to fitness face not moving up to a platinum a sponsor level. You know, participant here, Ned. It's got lots of history's in participating and driving standards, helping move where the industry's going. Where doesn't it up? See its position in, you know, the participating in the foundation and participating in this ecosystem? >>Yeah, So great question, actually. Love it. It's for my favorite topic. So I think the way we look at it is oftentimes, project to the extent they become ubiquitous, define a standard a de facto standard, so not necessarily ratified by some standards body. And so we're very interested in making sure that in a scenario where you would employ the standard from a technology integration perspective, our capabilities can can operate as an implementation behind the standard. So you get the distinguishing qualities of our capabilities. Our products in our service is Visa VI or in the context of the standard. We're not trying to take you down a walled garden path in a proprietary, uh, journey, if you will weigh, would rather actually compel you to work with us on the basis of the value, not necessarily operating off a proprietary set of interface. Kubernetes broadly perceive it as a defacto standard at this point, there's still some work to be done on running out the edges a lot of underway this week. It's definitely the case that there's a new appeal to making this more off herbal by pardon the expression mere mortals way. Think we can offer Cem, Cem, Cem help in that respect as well? >>Yeah, for us, its usability, right? I mean, that's the reason I started stacking. Cloud was that there was usability problem with kubernetes. I had a usability problem. That's what we're trying. That's how I'm looking at the landscape. And I look at kind of all the projects inside the C N c f. And I look at my role is our role is to How do we tie these together? How do we make these? So they're very, very usable to the users. How were engaging with the community is to try to like a line like this, basically pure upstream projects, and create a usability layer on top of that. But we're not gonna we don't want ever say we're gonna fork into these projects what we're gonna contribute back into these. >>That's one concern that I have heard from. Customers were speaking with some of them yesterday. One of the concerns I had was that when you add that manageability onto the base kubernetes layer, that often very spenders become rather opinionated about which way we think this is a good way to do that. And when you're trying to maintain that compatibility across the ecosystem. So some customers saying, Well, I actually don't want to have to be too closely welded to anyone. Vendor was part of the benefit of Kubernetes. I can move my workloads around. So how do you navigate What? What is the right level of opinion? Tohave and which part should actually just be part of a common sense >>should be along the lines of best practices is how we do it. So like, Let's take a number policy, for example, like applying a sane default network policy to every name space defying a saying default pod security policy. You know, building a cluster in the best practices fashion with security turned on hardening done where you would have done this already as a user. So we're not looking you in any way there, so that's we're not trying. I'm not trying to carry any type of opinion in the product we're trying to do is urbanize your experience across all of this ecosystem so that you don't ever have to think about time now building a cluster on top of Amazon. So I gotta worry about how do I manage this on Amazon? I don't want you to think about those providers anymore, right? And then on top of those on top of that infrastructure, I wanna have a way that you're thinking about managing the applications on those environments in the exact same way. So I'm scaling protecting an application on premise in the identical way I'm doing it in the cloud. >>So if it's the same everywhere, what's the value that you're providing? That means that I should choose your option than something else. >>So wait, do have This is where we have controllers and live inside of the clusters that manage this stuff for the user's so you could rebuild what we're doing, But you would have to roll it all by hands, but you could, you know, we don't stand in the way of your operations either. So, like if we go down, you don't go down that idea, but we do have controllers we have. We're using charities. And so, like our management technology, our controllers are just watching for workload to come into the environment. And then we show that in the interface. But you could just walk away as well if you wanted to. >>There's also a constellation of other service is that we're building around this experience, you know, they do draw again from some of the storage and management capabilities. So staple sets your traditional workloads that want to interact with or transact data against a block or a shared file system. We're providing capabilities for sophisticated qualities of persistence that can be can exist in all of those same public clouds. But moreover, over time, we're gonna be in on premises. Well, we're gonna be able to actually move migrate, place, cash her policy. Your put your persistent data with your workload as you move migrate scale burst would repatriate whatever the model is as you move across in between clouds. >>Okay, How how far down that pathway do you think we are? Because 11 criticism of proven it is is that a lot of the tooling that were used to from more traditional ways of operating this kind of infrastructure isn't really there yet. Hence into the question about we actually need to make this easy to use. How far down that pathway away? >>Why would argue that tooling that I've built has already solved some of those problems. So I think we're pretty far down. The people ride down the path. Now what we haven't done is open sourced. You know all my tools, right? To make it easier on everybody else. >>Get up, Scott. Strong partnerships across the cloud platforms. I had a chance to interview George at the Google Cloud event. New partner of the year. I believe some of the stuff help us understand how you know something about the team building. Interact with the public cloud. You look at anthems and azure Arkin. Of course, Amazon has many different ways. You can do your container and management piece there, you know, to talk a little bit of that relationship and how both with those partners and then across those partners, you know, work. >>Yeah, it's a wow. So how much time we have? So so there's certainly a lot of facets to to that, But drawing from the Google experience. We just announced the general availability of cloud volumes on top. So the ability to stand up and manage your own on top instance and Google's cloud. Likewise, we've announced the general availability of the cloud volume service, which gives you manage put fun as a service experience of shared file system on demand. Google, I believe, is either today or yesterday in London. I guess maybe I'll blame that on the time zone covers, not knowing what what day it was. But the point is that's now generally available. Some of those capabilities are going to be able to be connected to our ability from an ks to deploy, uh on demand kubernetes cluster and deploy applications from a market marketplace experience in a common way, not just with Google, but has your with Amazon. And so, you know, frankly, the story doesn't differ a little bit from one cloud to the next, but the the Endeavour is to provide common capabilities across all of them. It's also the case that we do have people that are very opinionated about I want to live only in the Google or that Microsoft of the Amazon, because we're trying to deliver a rich experience for those folks as well, even if you don't value the agnostic multi cloud expert. >>Yeah and Matt, You know, I'm sure you have a viewpoint on this, but you know, it's that skill set that that's really challenging. And I was at the Microsoft show and you've got people you know. It's not just about dot net, there's all that. They're they're embracing and opened all of these environment. But people tend to have the environment that you used to and for multi cloud to be a reality, it needs to be a little bit easier for me to go between them, but it's still we're still we're making progress. But there's work to do. Yeah, s so I just, you know, you know, I know you're building tools and everything, but what what more do we didn't need to do? What were some of the areas that you know you're hopeful for about a >>year before I need to go for the supreme? It's down. It's coming down to the data side like I need to be able to say that on when I turn on data service is inside of kubernetes. I need be able to have that work would go anywhere, right? And because it is a developer. So I have I'm running a production. I'm running an Amazon. But maybe I'm doing test locally on my bare metal environments. Right? I need I want to be able to maybe sink down some of my data. I'm working with a production down to my test environment. That stuff's missing. There's no one doing that right now, and that's where we're headed. That's the path that's where we're headed. >>Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up, actually, because one of the things that I feel like I heard a little bit last year, but it is violated more this year is we're talking a little bit more to the application to the application developer because, you know, communities is a piece of the infrastructure, But it's about the Colonel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the colonel there. So, you know, how do we make sure you know, we're standing between what the APP developer needs and still making sure that, you know, infrastructure is taken care of because storage and networking they're still hard. >>It is. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm approaching. I'm thinking more along the lines of I'm trying to work about app developers personally than infrastructure This point on for me, you know, like so I have I give you a cluster in three minutes, right? So I don't really have to worry about that problem, you know, way also put Theo on top of the clusters. So it's like we're trying to create this whole narrative that you can manage that environment on day one day, two versions. But and that's for like, an I T manager, right? And society instead of our product. How I'm addressing this is you have personas and so you have this concept. You have an I T manager. They do these things that could set limits for the developer who's building the applications or the service's and pushing those up into the environment. They need to have a sense of freedom, right? And said on that side of the house, you know, I'm trying not to break them out of their tooling. So, like wait part of our product ties in to get s o. We have CD, you know? So you just get push, get commit to a branch and weaken target multiple clusters, Right? But no point to the developer, actually, drafty animal or anything. We make way basically create the container for you. Read the deployment, bring it online. And I feel like there's these lines and that I t guys need to be able to say I need to create the guard rails for the Debs. I don't want to make it seem like I'm creating guardrails for the deaths caused the deaths. Don't like that. That's how I'm balancing it. >>Okay, Because that has always been the tension and that there's a lot of talk about Dev ops, but you don't talkto application developers, and they don't wanna have anything to do with infrastructure. They just want a program to an A p I and get things done. They would like this infrastructure to be seamless. Yeah, >>and what we did, like also what I'm giving them is like service dashboards. Because as a developer, you know, because now you're in charge of your cue, eh? You're writing your tests you're pushing. If your c I is going to ct you on your service in production, right? And so we're delivering dashboards as well for service Is that the developers are running, so they dig in and say, Oh, here's an issue or here's where the issue is probably gonna be at I'm gonna go fix this. Yeah, and we're trying to create that type of like scenario for developer and for an I T manager, >>slightly different angle on it, by understanding that question correctly is part of the complexity of infrastructure is something we're also turned Friday deterministic sort of easy button capability, for perhaps you're familiar with them. That's nice. And a C I product, which we we kind of expand that as hybrid cloud infrastructure. If the intention is to make it a simple private cloud capability and indeed are not, a community service operates directly off of it. It's a big part of actually how we deliver Cloud Service is from it. The point is, is that if you're that application developer, if you want the effective and CASS on prom thing, Endeavor with are not a PhD. I product is to give you that sort of easy button extremes because you didn't really want to be a storage admin network at you didn't want to get into the be mired in the details of infra. So So you know, that's obviously work in progress. But we think we're definitely headed down the right direction >>for him. >>Yeah, it just seemed that a lot of enterprises wanna have the cloud like experience, but they want to be able to bring it home that we're seeing a lot more. Yeah. >>So this is like, this turn cheon from this turnkey cloud on premise and played with think has weaken like the same auto scaling. So take so take the dynamic nature of opportunities. Right. So I have a base cluster size of four worker notes, right? But my work, let's gonna maybe maybe need to have more notes. So my out of scale is gonna increase the size my cluster and decrease the size right Pretty much everybody only do that in the public cloud. I could do that in public and on premise now and so that's That's what we're trying to deliver. And that's nickel stuff. I think >>that there's a lot of advantages thio enterprises operating in that way because I have I people that here I can I can go and buy them, hire them and say way, need you to operate this gear and you, you've already done elsewhere. You can do it in cloud. You can do it on side. I could know run my operations the same across no matter where my applications leave, Which saves me a lot of money on training costs on development costs on generally makes for a much more smooth and seamless experience. So, Rob, if you could just love >>your takeaway on, you know, kind of net up participation here at the event and what you want people to take away off from the show this year. >>So it's certainly the case that we're doing a lot of great work. We, like people toe become aware of it. Not up, of course, is not. I think we talked about this and perhaps other context, not strictly a storage and data management company. Only way do draw from the strength of that as we're providing full stack capabilities in a way that are interconnected with public cloud things like are not a Cuban. Any service is really the foundational glue in many ways how we deliver the application run time, but over time will build a consolation of data centric capabilities around that as well. >>I would just love to get your viewpoint Is someone that you know built a company in this ecosystem. There's so many start ups here. Give us kind of that founder viewpoint of being in. They're so sort of ecosystem of the >>ecosystem. So this is how I came into the ecosystem at the beginning. I would have to say that it does feel different. Att This point, I'm gonna speak as Matt, not as now. And so my my thinking has always been It feels a lot like kind of your really your big fan of that rock bands, right? And you go to a local club way all get to know each other at that local club. There's, like maybe 500 of us or 1000 of us. And then that band gets signed a Warner Brothers and goes to the top it. Now there's 20,000 people or 12,000 people. That's how it feels to me right now, I think. But what I like about it is that just shows the power of the community is now at a point where is drawing in like cities now, not just a small collection of a tribe of people, right? And I think that's a very powerful thing with this community. And like all the where they called the kubernetes summits that they're doing way, didn't have any of those back when we first got going. I mean, it was tough to fill the room, you know, Now, now we can fill the room and it's amazing. And what I like seeing is is people moving past the problem with kubernetes itself and moving into, like, what other problems can I solve on top of kubernetes, you know? So you're starting to see that all these really exciting startups doing really need things, you know, and I really likes it like this vendor hall I really like, you know, because you get to see all the new guys. But there's a lot of stuff going on, and I'm excited to see where the community goes in the next five years. But it's we've gone from 0 to 60 insanely because you guys were at the original coupon. I think, Well, >>it's our fourth year doing the Cube at this show, but absolutely we've watched the early days, You know, I'm not supposed to mention open stack of this show, but we remember talking T o J j. And some of the early people there and wait interviewed Chris McCloskey back into Google days, right? So, yeah, we've been fortunate to be on here, really? Day zero here and definitely great energy. So much. Congrats. So much on the progress. Really appreciate the updates, Everything going. As you said, right, we've reached a certain estate and just adding more value on top of this whole >>environment. We're now like we're in, like, Junior high now. Right on were in grade school for a few years. >>All right, Matt. Rob, Thank you so much for the update. Hopefully not an awkward dance tonight for the junior people. For Justin Warren. I'm stupid and back with more coverage here from Q Khan Cloud native 2019. Diego, Thank you for watching Cute

>> Live from San Francisco. It's the cube covering IBM thing twenty nineteen brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to the Cube here in Mosconi North at IBM. Think twenty nineteen. I'm stupid. And my CLO host for the segment is Day Volante. We have four days, a water wall. Coverage of this big show happened. Welcome back to the program. Jason McGee, who is an IBM fellow, and he's the vice president. CTO of Cloud Platform at IBM. Jason, Great to see a >> guy to have fair. >> All right, So, Jason, we spoke with you at Que Con Way. We're saying it's a slightly different audience. A little bit bigger here. Not as many hoodies and jeans and T shirts a little bit more of a business crowd were still talking about clouds. So let's talk about your kind of your role here at the show. What's gonna keep you busy all week? >> S o? I mean, obviously, cloud is a huge part of what's going on. I think talking a lot about both public and private, about hybrid and some are multi called management capabilities. You know, my role as the leader called Platform. I'm talking a lot about platform as a service and communities and containers in the studio and kind of all the new technologies that people are using to help build the next generation of applications. >> All right, so we've had a few interviews today already talk about some of the multi cloud pieces. We had Sandberg on alien talk about eternity. So first you're gonna help correct the things that he got >> anything. Gang >> and service measures have been a really hot conversation the last year or so SDO envoy and the like t talk to us about where IBM fits into this discussion of service meshes. >> Yeah, so you know, I think >> we've been on this kind of journey as an industry of last year's to build anew at platform on DH service meshes kind of fit the part of the problem, which is, How does everything talk to each other and how to actually control that and get visibility into it? You know, IBM has had a founding role in that project. My team at IBM and Google got together with the guys, a lift to create it. Theo, what I'm most excited about, I think a twenty nineteen is that's that technology is really transitioning into something people are using in production and their applications. It's becoming more of kind of the default stack that people are using Really helping them do security invisibility control over their applications? >> Yeah. What? One thing that I heard just from the community and wonder if you could tell me is, you know, is dio itself. The governance model is still not fully into CNC s. Yeah, I heard a little bit, hasn't he? On some envoy? Of course. Out there in the like. So, you know, where are we? What needs to happen to kind of >> move forward? Yeah, you're right. So we're not there quite yet. We're pushing hard to make that happen. Certainly. From an IBM perspective, we absolutely believe that CNC F is the right home for Osteo as you mentioned some of the pieces like Envoy or they're ready. You know, C N c f has done such a tremendous job over the last eighteen months. Really rallying all the core technologies that make up this new coordinate A platform that we're building on costo is no out there's one. Oh, it's been sure people are using it. You know, that last step needs to happen to get into the community. >> So I have to ask you So things move so fast in this world, you go back to the open stack days, and that was going to change the world. And then Dakar Containers. And then Cooper netease, usto I can't help but thinking, Okay, This isn't the end of the line. What's Jason? What's the underlying trend here that's going on in the coding world? Yeah, sure. I'll put it in, maybe in >> my own lens. Given my history, you nominal WebSphere app server guy. You know that in the first half of my career I built that Andi, >> I think the fundamental >> problem solving is actually exactly the same. It's like, how do you build a platform that's app developers focus on building their APS, and I'll focus on all the plumbing and the infrastructure for running those aps. We did that twenty years ago in Java with APP servers, and we're doing it now with cloud, and we're doing it on top of containers. Things like usto like, while they're important in their own right there really actually Mohr important because they're just part of this bigger puzzle that we're putting together. And I think for the average suffer developer, they shouldn't really have to care about. What part of this deal will part is is Cuban eighties. And which part is K native like all that needs to come together into a single platform that they can use to build their APS and run them security. Right? And and I think it's Seo is just recognizing that next piece. You know, I think we've all agreed on containers and communities. We all talk about it all the time, and it's tio Is that next layer I catalyze securing >> control things. Yeah. So you teed it up nicely because we want out. Developers just be able to worry about the application. So you mentioned K native. The whole server list trend is one where you know the idea, of course, is I shouldn't have to worry about the infrastructure layer it just be taking care of me. We've talked about it for pass for a number of years. There are various ways to do it. So at, uh, Cube Colin and we've been looking for about the last year. Now you know, Where does you No, Crew, Burnett, ease and surveillance. How do they fit together? And K Native looks to be a pieces. Toe bridge. Some of those barrels? Absolutely. Where are we and what? What? What's? What's IBM doing there? >> So I think >> you rightly say that they should fit together like they're all part of this continuum of how developers build APS. And, you know, if you look at server, less applications, you know, there's the servos to mention I'm personally not a big service terminology fan. I think they're Maura about event oriented computing. And how do you have a good model for event oriented systems today? With Cuba Netease, anise Teo, I think we've built the base platform, I think, with a native what we're doing is bringing server lists and also just kind of twelve factor applications into the fold in a more formal way on when we get all those pieces together and we integrate them. I think then developers really unleashed to just build their application, whatever way it makes the most sense for what they're doing. And some things like server lists of Anna Marie. And it's going to be easier. And some problems. Straight containers will be an easier way to do >> it. You know, you say you don't like survivalists you like event better a function. So so explain that to the audience, like Why? Why should we care? And why is that different? How is that different? Yeah, I think, for >> a couple things. First off, the idea of server lists applies much more broadly than just what we think of this kind of function based program. You know, like any system that does a good job of managing and masking the infrastructure below me, you could consider a surveillance system, right? So when you just say server Lis, it's kind of like secondhand for functions. I'd rather we just kind of say, functions because that's actually a different programming model where you kind of trigger off of events and you write a functional piece of code and the system takes care of those details. You could argue that caught foundries, a server list system in the sense that you just as a developer anyway, you just see if push your code and it just runs and its scales and it does whatever you need, right? So part of my mission, you know, part of what I look at a lot is how do we bring all these things together in a way that is easy for the developer to stay focused. It steals a great example. You know, one of things were announcing this week is managed osteo support as part of our community service. What does that really mean? It means the developer can use the capability Viste without worrying about How do I install in Rennes D'oh, which they don't really care about? They just really care about how they get value out of its capability. >> Yeah, that's one of the things that having watched all these crew Benetti system and the like is how many companies really need to understand how to build this and run that because can I just get it delivered to me as a service? And therefore that you know that whole you know what I want out of cloud? I want a simple model to be able to consume, Not necessarily. I want to build the stuff that's important to me and not the rest of you. >> And I think if you look at the industry, there's really, I think, kind of two dominant consumption models that have actually emerged for people really using these things, there's public cloud platforms you're delivering things as a service. And then there's kind of platform software stacks like open shifts like I've been called private, which take all of these pieces and bring them together. And I think for most developers, they'll consume in one of those two ways because they don't really want the task of how to assemble all these pieces together. >> Tio, go back to the service piece like what? One distinction I heard made is okay. If I can really scale it down to zero, if I don't need to make it, then that can be serve a list. But there there's alternatives coming out there like what K native has. If I want to run this in my own environment, it's not turbulence because I do need toe. It might be functions, but I need to manage this environment. The infrastructure is my responsibility, not some >> service provider, right? And I think if you'll get server list to me, I was personally, I always think of it in kind of two scenarios. There's like surveillance as ah program remodel in a technology and surveillance as a business model, right? As a consumption model for payment. I think this programming model parts applicable in lots of cases, including private clouds. And in Custer, the business model parties, I think, frankly, unique to public. I'll thing that says I can just pay for the milliseconds of CPU, Compute that amusing and nothing more. >> That's a good thing for consumers. For >> the consumer, it's actually good thing for cloud providers because it gives us a way Tio reuse our infrastructure and creative ways, Right? But I think first and foremost, we have to get Mohr adoption of it as a programming model that developers used to build their applications and do it combined with other things. Because I think most realistic APs aren't gonna all be cirrhosis or all B Cooper nineties. They're going to be something. >> Yeah, right. It's like everything else. It's it's you know, what percent into the applications? Will this takeover? We had this discussion with virtual ization. We've been having this discussion with cloud and certain list, of course, is is pretty early in that environment. K native did I hear is there's some announcement this week that IBM >> so Soak a native, obviously is a project is kind of much earlier in its maturation and something like Castillo is. But we're making that available as part of our Republican private cards as well, Really? So people can get started with the ideas of K native. They can have an easy way to get that environment stood up, and they can start building those applications on DSO. That's now something that, you know, we're kind of bringing out as we work in the community to actually mature the project itself. >> Excellent. One of the things everybody's, of course, keeping an eye on. I saw Arvin Christian talking about the clouds. Tragedy is how red hat fits into all this. So we know you can't talk about kind of post acquisition. But red hats involved in K native. They're involved in a lot of the >> services and developers you gotta be exciting for. Yeah, >> it is. And obviously, like, Look, we've been partners for many years, you know, in on the open source side of things. We've worked closely with Red Hat for a long time. We actually view the world in very similar ways. You know, like you said, we're working on a native together. We've been working on Open West Feather. We obviously work in Cuban eighties together. So personally, I'm pretty excited about them coming in IBM. Assuming that acquisition goes through, they, you know, they fit into our strategy really well. And I think we'll just kind of enhance what we've all been working to build. >> All right, Jason, what else? What's looking? You talk about the maturity of these solutions, give us, um, guide post for the people watching the industry that we should be looking at as twenty nineteen rolls through >> us. So I think there's a >> couple things that, you know, I think this unified application platform notion that we've been kind of touching on here, I think will really come into its own in twenty nineteen. And and I would really love to see people kind of embraced that idea that we don't need. Three container stacks were not tryingto build these seven things. You know, one of things I'm kind of excited about with a native is by bringing server lists and twelve factor into Cuba Netease. It allows each of those frameworks to be kind of the best they can be at their part of the problem space and not solved unrelated problems. You know, I looked at the kind of server less versus coop camps, you know, the purest. And both think all problems will be solved in their camp. Which means they tried to solve all problems. Like, how do I do state full systems and server, Wes. And how do I bring in storage and solve all these things that maybe containers is better at. So I think this unification that I see happening will allow us to have really high efficiency, twelve factor and surveillance in the context of Koob and will change how people are able to use these platforms. I think twenty nineteen is really about adoption of all of this stuff. You know, we still are really early, frankly, in the kind of container adoption landscape, and I think most people in the broader industry or just kind of getting their feet wet they all agree that they're all trying, but they're just starting, and he knows a lot of interesting work. >> Jason, are there any anything that air holding people back? Anything that you You know what? What do you see is some of the things that might help accelerate some of this adoption? >> Yeah, I think one of the things that's >> holding people back is just the diversity of options that exists in the cognitive space means you guys have all probably rising like the C in C F landscape chart. I've never seen so many icons on something in my life. That's really frightening for the average enterprise. To look at a picture like that and go like which of these things are going to be useful, which are going to exist in a year like how Doe, I bet, make that sort >> of those things. So I think that's actually >> help people back a lot. I think that kind of agreement around communities that happened in the last eighteen months or so was really liberating, for a lot of people have helped them kind of move forward there. I think if we can all agree on a few more pieces around this deal, reckon native like it'll really help kind of unlock people and get them trying actually doing it. And I don't think it's anything more than picking a project and starting. I think a lot of enterprises over analyze everything, and they just need to pick something and go and learn. And they'll >> so pick some narrow use case pick, pick an app, pick >> a use case and go do it right and you'll learn and you'll figure out how it works for you. And then you do the second and the fourth in the tenth. And before you know it, you're on your way. That's what we did at IBM ourselves, and you know, now we're running our whole entire public out on top of communities. >> Jason and any any warnings from that kind of experience that you trade to users? A CZ. They looked forward. >> Yeah, we had a >> lot of learnings from music. One is we could run a heck of a lot more diverse work less than we thought when we started. You know, we're running databases where any data warehouses, running machine learning. We're running Blockchain. We're running every kind of application you didn't think could ever work on containers on containers s so one of the lessons Wass. It's much more flexible than you think. It isthe right. The >> other thing is you >> really have to rethink everything. Like the way you do compliance, the way you do security, the way you monitor the system. Like all of those things I need to change because the underlying kind of container system enables you to solve them in such a powerful way. And so if you go into it just thinking, Oh, I'm just going to change this one part of how I do aps and the rest will change. I think you'll find in a year that you're changing the whole operating model around your environment. >> Well, Jason, rethink everything we're here at IBM. Thing up twenty nineteen. Thinks is always for catching up with Thanks for everything going on for David. Want a, um, stew? Minutemen got three more days of live coverage here for Mosconi North. If you hear, stop by and say hi or reach out to us on the interwebs. Thanks so much for watching the cues.

San Francisco it's the Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat okay welcome back everyone this is the cube live in San Francisco for Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John for the co-host of the cube and this week for three days of wall-to-wall coverage my co-host analyst is John Tory the co-founder of check reckoning and advisory and community development services firm industry legend formerly VMware's Bentley he was at the Q in 2010 our first ever cube nine years ago John Day one wrap up let's analyze what we heard and dissect and and put Red Hat into day one in the books but you know clearly it's a red-letter day for red hat so to speak your thoughts big day for open shift I think and hybrid cloud right we just saw a lot of signs here that we'll talk about that it's real there's real enterprises here real deployments in the cloud multi-cloud on-site hybrid cloud and i think there's really no doubt about that they really brought a brought the team out and you know red hat's become a bellwether relative to the tech industry because if you look at what they do there's so many irons on the fires but more the most important is that they have huge customer base in the enterprise which they've earned over a decades of work being the open source renegade to the open source darling and Tier one citizen they got a huge install basin they got to manage this so they can't just throw you know spaghetti at the wall they gotta have big solutions they're very technical company very humble but they do make some good tech bets absolutely we'll be talking with the folks from core OS tomorrow they have a couple of other action you know things we'll be talking about a lot of interesting partnerships the the most you know the thing here Linux is real and it's is the 20-year growth and that it's real in the enterprise and I mean the top line think the top line slowed and John is is is kubernetes than the gnu/linux for the cloud and I got to say there's some reality there yeah it's there's no doubt about it I mean then I've got my notes here just my summary for the day is on that point the new wave is here okay the glue layer that kubernetes and containers provide on top of say Linux in this case OpenShift a you know alternative past layer just a few years ago becomes the centerpiece of red hats you know architecture really providing some amazing benefits so I think what's clear is that this new shift this new wave is massive and we've heard on the cube multiple references to tcp/ip HTTP these are seminal moments where there's a massive inflection point where the games just radically changes for the better wealth creation happens startups boom new brands emerged that we've never heard of that just come out of the woodwork entrepreneurial activity hits an all-time high and they all these things are coming yeah I said John I was really impressed if we talk to a number of folks who are involved with technologies that some people might call legacy right we the Java programmers the IBM WebSphere folks they've been you you look at these technologies solid proven tested but yet still over here and adapted for today right and they talked about how they're fitting into openshift how they're fitting into modern application development and you're not leaving those people behind they're really here and you know the old joke going back to say Microsoft when Steve Ballmer was the CEO hell will freeze over when Linux isn't in in Microsoft ecosystem look today no further than what's going on in their developer Commerce called Microsoft build where Linux is the centerpiece of their open-source strategy and Microsoft has transformed themselves into a total open-source world so you know now you got Oracle with giving up Java II calling a Jakarta essentially bringing Java into an the Eclipse community huge move it's a kind of a nuance point but that's another signal of the shifts going on out in the open where communities aren't just yesterday's open source model a new generation of open source actors are coming in a new model I think the CNC F is showing it the Linux Foundation proves that you can have commercialization downstream with open source projects as that catalyst point as a big deal and I think that is happening at a new new level and it's super exciting to see yeah I mean open source is the new normal sure that that works it's in the enterprise but that doesn't mean that open source disappears it actually means that open source and communities and companies coming together to drive innovation actually gets more and more important I kind of thought well you know it's open source well everybody does open source but actually the the dynamics we're seeing of these both large companies partnering with small companies foundations like you talked about the Linux cutlasses various parts the Linux Foundation cloud boundary foundation etc right are really making a big impact well we had earlier on assistant general counsel David Levine and bringing about open source I think one key thing that's notable is this next generation of open source wave comes is the business model of open source and operationalizing it in not just server development lifecycle but in the business operation so for example spending resources on managing proprietary products with that have open source components separate from the community is a resource that you don't have to spend anymore if you just contribute everything to open source that energy can go away so I think open source projects and the product monetization component not new concepts is now highlighted as a bonafide competitive advantage across the company not just proven but like operationally sound legally verified certified and I think also you have to look at the distribution of open source versus the operation and management of open source we see a lot of management managed kubernetes coming out and in fact we didn't talk about today Microsoft big announcement here at the show Microsoft is on Azure is running a managed open ship not not kubernetes they already have kubernetes they're running a managed open ship another way of adding value to an open open source platforms to date directly to the IT operator honestly do you think these kind of deals would happen if you go back four years three years ago oh no way as you're running an open shift absolutely I mean were you crazy the you know the kingdom is turned upside down absolutely this is a notable point I want to get your reaction is because I see this absolutely as validation to the new wave being here with kubernetes containers as a de facto rallying point an inflection point big deals are happening IBM and Red Hat big deal we just talked about them with the players here two bellwether saying we're getting behind containers and two bays in a big way from that relationship essentially it changes the game literally overnight for IBM changes the game for Red Hat I think a little bit more for IBM than Red Hat already gets a ton of benefit but IBM instantly gets a cloud strategy that has a real scalable product market to it Arvind the the head of research laid that out and IBM now can go and compete with major players on deals with the private cloud more deals are coming absolutely this is the beginning now that everyone snapped into place is saying okay kubernetes and containers we now understand this the rallying cry a de facto standard I think a formation is going to happen in the next six to 12 months of major major major players now I mean we are in a not one size does not fit all world John so I mean we will continue to see healthy ecosystems I mean mesosphere and DT cos is still out there Dockers still out there right you will see very functional communities and and functioning application platforms and cloud platforms but you got to say the momentum is here I mean look at amine docker mace those fears look at when things like this happened this is my opinion so I'm just gonna say it out there when you have de facto standards that happen like this it's an opportunity to differentiate so I think what's gonna happen is docker meso sphere and others including the legacy guys like IBM and in others they have to differentiate their products they have to compete software companies so I think docker I think is come tonight at docker con but my opinion looking at from the outside is I think Dockers realized looking we can't make money from containers kubernetes is happening we're a great standard in that let's be a software company let's differentiate around kubernetes so this is just more pressure or more call-to-action to deliver good software hey it's never been of somebody said it's never been a better time to be an IT and IT infrastructure right this is a you think that the tools we have available to us super-powerful another key point I want to get your reaction on with kubernetes and containers this kind of de facto standardization is breathing new life into good initiatives and legacy projects so you think about OpenStack okay OpenStack gets a nice segmented approach is now clear with a where the swim lanes are you're an app developer you go over here and if you are a network and infrastructure guy you're going here but middleware a from talk to the Red Hat guys here we talk to IBM those legacy and apps can put a container around it and don't have to be thrown away and take their natural course now I think it's gonna be a three line through this holy a second life is for legacy and stuff and then to cloud is and it's in second inning because now you have the enablement for cloud your reaction the enablement of cloud Ibn iBM has cloud and then the market shares of nm who you believe they're not in that they're in the top three but they're not double digits according to synergy research and he bought us a little bit higher but still if you compare public cloud they're small they look at IBM's and tire and small base and saying if they have a specialty cloud that can be assembled quit Nellie yeah and scaled and maybe instantly successfully overnight yeah I think a few years ago you know there was a lot different always a few years back it always looks confusing right a few years back we were still arguing public cloud private cloud as private cloud ed is what is a true private cloud is that even valuable I still see people on Twitter making fun of everything anybody who's not 100% into the full public cloud which means they must not have talked to you know a lot of IT folks who have to business to run today so I think you're saying it's a it's a it's a multivalent world multi-cloud there's going to be differentiated clouds there's going to be operational clouds there's gonna be financial clouds and just it's it seems clear that you know from the perspective of right now here in San Francisco and 2018 that that you know the purpose of public-private hybrid seems pretty clear just like the purpose of like I said we're gonna in two weeks we'll be an openstack summit I mean the purpose of that seems pretty clear it's it's funny it's like I had this argument and each Assateague he thinks everything should go the public cloud goes eaten has one of the public clouds but he's kind of right and I and I and we talked about this way I with him I said if everything is running cloud operation we're talking about cloud ops we're talking about how its managed how its deployed code bases across the board if everything is clarified from an OP raishin standpoint the Dearing on Prem and cloud and IOT edge is there's no difference stuffs moving around so you almost treats a data center as an edge network so now it's sexually all cloud in my mind so then and also you do have to keep in mind time time horizons right anybody who has to do work the today this quarter right has to keep in mind what's what what portfolio of business deeds and tools do I have right now versus what it's gonna look like in a few years all right so I want to get your thoughts on your walk away from today I'll start my walk away from day one was talking some of the practitioners Macquarie Bank and Amadeus to me they're a tell signed the canary in the coalmine what's happening horizontally scalable synchronous infrastructure the new model is here now we're seeing them saying things like it's a streaming world not just Kafka for streaming data streaming services levels of granularity that at workers traded with containers and kubernetes up and down the stack to me architects who think that way will have a preferred advantage over everybody else that to me was like okay we're seeing it play out I guess I totally agree right the future isn't evenly distributed my takeaway though is there's certainly a future here and the people we talked to today are doing real-world enterprise scale multi-cloud micro services and modern architectures incorporating their legacy applications and components and that and they're just doing it and they're not even breaking a sweat so I think IT has really changed ok day one coverage continues day two tomorrow we have three days of wall-to-wall coverage day two and then finally day three Thursday here in San Francisco this is the cubes live coverage go to the cube dotnet to check out all the videos they're gonna be going up as soon as they are done live here and check out all the cube alumni and check out Silicon angle comm for all news coverage then of course you got tech reckoning Jon's company's the co-founder of for John Fourier and John Shroyer that's day one in the books thanks for watching see you tomorrow

from the noise it's the cube covering vmworld 2015 brought to you by VM world and its ecosystem sponsors now your host Stu minimun and Brian Grace Lee Patrick Shanna's on for a member of the technical staff for dr. Patrick saw you at the end of our spring tour and now you're here at the you know picking up the fall tour so thank you for joining us again hey thanks for having me alright so I mean last year you know containers with VMware I mean was a big discussion we kind of all had that you've got some background with Microsoft right and VMware yeah and VMware so you know there was kind of a joke of you know oh the old Microsoft you know extend embrace and we'll see how we go from there but you know it's been a year later so can you give us a little bit of the update of kind of you know how docker in VMware how do you guys see each other I could evm where is a great partner you so the announcement this morning VMware embrace containers so I'm super excited to be here some of the announcements that were made this morning is now this year is a control plane for containers there's this notion of native containers in this year one of the things that excites me the most is their project bonville that they talked about this morning it's actually been made by one of my friends on the ex-colleagues banchory and what they're doing in there that they are implemented the back end for the darker engine in terms of these fear primitives so when you're creating images it creates a set of vmdk layers and when you're creating when you want to create a container the isolation primitives are the ones of VMS as opposed to linux containers all right so that's a very good way of running container yes sir patrick last time we're in the cube you did a great job of helping us you know kind of walk the stack I don't know if you saw we actually did a research piece kind of layering the whole stack so here the announcement you mentioned this morning is the vSphere integrated containers and they've got photon and they've got Bonneville on and let me ask you am I looking at this right that we're VMware I mean VMware very much down at the infrastructure level yeah so when they build that photon layer you know whether they call it just enough virtualization as Kate kolbert said this morning when I heard him speak um but dr. sits on top of that am I getting that right yeah it's exactly right and actually one of my reasons for joining VMware I think four years ago was for them to go up stack and at that time it was with cloud foundry and I would argue that maybe with cloud foundry we were a little bit too much up stack compared to my vm worries at the bottom when I present the whole stack usually I talk about like the new hardware the new hardware today is your cloud provider it's a Amazon Microsoft Google and then the virtualization with VMware so that's the new hardware and that's where vmware is very strong so they manage networking storage and compute on top of that you have the OS layer and what really got me interested into moving to darker is that the whole landscape just changed when containers appear two years ago and the whole industry is reorganizing around that so what happened at the OS layer that all the OS providers starting with chorus initially who studied that friend started doing minimal release of their OS that are just designed to run containers so coral I started that trend but then very quickly read had followed with project atomic and then we went to with winter core the most interesting to me is Ranchero s where they run docker for everything so they have two darker system darker and userland occur and then VMware came out with photon I think twas last June or something like that and today I think they have a preview to of that coming out on top of that you have ducker so the rocker engine running and on top of the darker engine you have orchestration platforms and these are the ones that are replacing what used to be past platform as a service and when I was at Google I was doing google appengine at vmware i was doing cloud foundry now you see cloud foundry reinventing itself as a control plane for containers and so one of the announcement that excited me most in the keynote this morning is that now Cloud Foundry is running with photon they have an integrated distribution so finally vmware is going up stack with its own stack like vSphere at the bottom then on top of that you have photon and then on top of that you have cloud foundry yeah so really exciting times yeah I think for me one of the things that I always hear that feels like it's confusing or off the markets a lot of people want to kind of get into this containers replaces VMs or VMs versus container debate and as if they're both sort of infrastructure layer which if you think about them is something that holds that I could see you make the mistake but but Dockers is something that developers love they love to package their applications they love this idea of right on my laptop push it somewhere do you find that confusion a lot in the marketplace I mean oh yeah I find that a lot and I think it's tied to the rise of DevOps it really in the past five years the this new movement called DevOps like really took off and DevOps is a lot about people and processes a little bit about products as well and I think when docker appeared it was the right level of abstraction for DevOps to happen like the right packaging construct where developers can put all their dependencies in a container and then ups have all the right knobs to tweak for putting that in production but it's the same thing that you put in production that you have on your developer machine so to me a lot of the confusion assoc d2 docker is tied to that because it's a technology that you use both by developers and by ops I think vmware is doing a really good job of giving up so kind of control they need to put darker in production yeah so we're here at vmworld a lot of talk about vmware in containers you guys doing a ton of stuff with Microsoft like yeah talk a little bit about because you know for a long time people like to say what containers have been along for on for a long time Linux containers and but but windows and microsoft adopting this like what's going on there yeah so the partnership with Microsoft is super exciting so after a VMware I actually moved to Microsoft and at Microsoft my role was to help all the darker partners to get onto Azure and since I join I've seen all the work that happened with microsoft recently we've done tons of stuff we end many many different integration points to me the most important one is finally we have native windows containers that shipped with a Windows Server tv3 like literally I think two weeks ago so that's something that was pre announced that dark on and my croissan'wich came onstage with the ducati sure to do a demo now you can run it on Azure yourself what's exciting there is that the concepts that are at the heart of docker are based on using c groups and name spaces which are linux kernel features for isolation of your workloads the thing is these isolation primitive similar ones existed in windows server and especially the version of Windows Server that was running within Microsoft data center for to power Bing and things like that to have denser workloads in the data center where the Microsoft team has done is that they re implemented the darker back end in terms of windows containers primitives and so now you can create Windows net application running on windows server in windows native containers the beauty of it if you're a developer especially an enterprise developer in the enterprise basically you have half and half Java and.net very often like developers go from one to the other or they are developers who do Java others doing dotnet they have completely different tool chains now with darker they have a single tool chain that they can use to build a multi container application that use different technologies behind the scene so finally developers can use the best tools for the father father job yep so pattern one of the things we look at every year here at vmworld is how are we doing it kind of fixing the things that broke when virtualization went into both storage and networking yeah and it was big discussion point at dr. Khan this year you put up a beta of docker networking yep storage I'd say is even a little bit you know further behind there so you know what's the latest on how you guys think of that you know where are we along that maturity curve of you know storage and networking for for containers so I'm really glad you asked that because when i joined occur in march that was my first project to kick-start a project to do darker extensibility and the two extension points that we created based on ecosystem and customer demands were about storage and networking and so I'd acha kaun in June we announced to extension points for dr. a plug-in system one for networking and one for volumes and what I really love about what happened at vmworld today this morning in the keynote is that VMware implemented a networking plug-in based on NSX as well as a volume plug inning in collaboration with a cluster HQ who had built flutter and help us create that extension point four volumes so finally one of the big issues with containers is that when you were deploying it in a multi host set up especially with swarm and compose when you're stunning to the orchestration before June there was no way to to move one container when state full container with data to another machine with a volume plug-in now you can do that and with the networking aspect now you can refer to containers by instead of like doing links and there were some complicated ways to do that now you can use either the native networking driver that comes with ducker but as usual we use the philosophy of batteries included but replaceable and so you can plug networking plug-in coming from nsx if you're using this fear under the hood yeah so still we're we're going to be doing a panel tomorrow on on containers one of the things I want to dig into we're gonna have intel on the show and tells doing some neat things where they're they're calling it clear containers but in essence it's it's kind of the equivalent for the vm we're proud of you know VT technology right hardware isolation of processes talk about just what's the potential of that for containers ability to better leverage hardware to make containers a it's faster and yeah so that aspect of internal research is super exciting and it corroborates some of the things i see happening in the marketplace right now especially on the research side where you have both like Linux containers became super successful in the past two years now that we're going in production there will be lots of different type of isolation technologies applied to containers and so one of the first one I heard about West project banville where it's implemented in terms of this year primitives another one is the clear container by Intel another one that I heard about that that came through the oci project that will talk about that new standard that we announced a cocoon is called is called things of run V and it's based on the hyper SH container technology based on virtualization so I see more and more people using virtualization as an implementation for isolation in containers yeah talk about what's going on with run see so you know six months ago it was we had this you know are we gonna have diverging container standards you guys stood up with core OS and 20 other companies and said we're no we're going to have one standard what's going on with with oci and run c and that thing that's been super exciting so that was my second project that docker we announced it at Daka Connie you that we had a 20 of the biggest companies in the industry joining to create a standard container especially core OS joining as well as Google and Amazon and everybody and what blew my mind is that we're what were free month later less than three months later the team right now is preparing a first draft of the spec for September they've been working actively all throughout the summer we put out we started working on the spec just after dark on we had the darker contributor summit and the the working group for OC I was the largest we had like 15 people from different companies starting to iterate on the spec they continued throughout the summer and now we have something that's close to a first draft of the spec with a reference implementation that's runs in one of the most interesting development that happens there and that really speaks to the power of open source and open stone is is that once the specs started to mature we started to have already a second reference a second implementation of the spec that's called rungy that's been built by the hyper SH project based on virtualization and then why way contributed a test suite for compliance of the of the spec so that spec is advancing really fast yeah so I was having a conversation with Jim's emmalin who runs the Linux Foundation II week or so ago at linux con and we asked him we said you know it's hard because you love them all like your kids do you have a favorite project he said yeah no question oci is my favorite project right now just because of the promise of portability the sort of write once run anywhere so you're working on it it's an important product the Linux domain is really looking at you guys to make this work and and drive that portability yeah and the Linux Foundation has done a really great job at coordinating the work of all the maintainer Xin there it's really a neutral ground where we can advance so that all of us can innovate on top of it now a lot of the competition is happening at the upper layer of the stack like oci I think we all agree on the semantics of what a container runtime should be now at the higher level there are lots of discussions about how the orchestration should be done and there you have 15 different projects you have swarmed from darker this mess those this coup banaras which is very opinionated and one of the other development this summer is that Google and many others including us dr. with part of that announced an another foundation called the CNC F the cloud native computing foundation where the goal there is to create reference tax for orchestration that can interoperate together pretty much along the same line of the work that darker did with a mesosphere for having a swarm plugin for mezclas so Patrick boy there's been so much movement in this space we talked multiple foundations a lot going on one of the things we came out of dr. Khan that we were just I guess a little concerned about is how many people actually run an import and we know you know I mean live through the the VMware lived through the Linux you know adoption phases so is it fair to kind of gauge that piece of it you know what do you see when you know you're talking to the practitioners and the you pick users out there as to you know how should we be measuring you know that's a naturally occurring production yeah so I would say it's maturing a lot we see more and more users putting darker in production there are lots of holes still in the offering that needs to be filled and that's why I'm pretty excited to see VMware stepping in and saying hey for production use we have a lot of technology that you can use to put that in production some of the things that we've seen is a like networking and volumes so that was really needed now that there are lots of plugins I hope that people will have an easier time putting that into production the agreement on what orchestration should be so people are still asking a lot of question about which orchestrator should i use for my containers in production and so I've seen so people using measures others using coronary some are trying swarm there's still lots of questions out there about what the right stack should look like and I would say as usual in software project it kind of depends on what you're running well the one thing that concerns me and it's always there's so many good things going on around docker I've been doing some research over the last couple of months looking at all the different platforms so everything from you know dr. native to what hoshi corp is doing to what openshift is doing and we were we talkin to Adrian Cockroft he said you know dockers reached sort of plaid in terms of speed it moves so fast you guys are releasing some every two months how do you deal with that because you deal with the ecosystem how do they deal with the fact that you're now part of their core platform but you're releasing new stuff every two months I mean are we going to get into something where it's like well it's it's one dot six and two dot one and how do you deal with that yeah so ducker itself as a company is maturing addict Akane you one of the big things that we announced is a darker trusted registry and aqus yes so we have a version of docker that is supported where we're going to do backwards a porting of patches so for people who really want to run it in production we have an offering that supported for them so that they are not obliged to run on the tape every time some of the startups that I've seen out there like large startups with a more in the consumer space who have larger data center and a pretty mature ops team they some of them are running on tip or on the latest version of darker but in the enterprise you can assume that like the adoption of new versions will be slower and so we have that like support offering for for all the versions of darker now the darker open source project is continuing to fire I like to create lots of things and there are lots of poor request the project is more successful than ever I think in the last like recently the most prolific contributor was Microsoft in the project there are lots of torrid has a huge contributor that Google as well is sending lots of pull requests so there are not lots of new features coming with each new release but at the same time we're really working on a platform that everybody is going to use and that needs to mature that's why you have that really fast pace of innovation in that space yeah so I mean Patrick here you're you're in the weeds of some of this so the other one that comes up quite a bit of courses security so even just this last week there's a big back and forth on Twitter and a couple of blog posts talking about it you know what what your thought is to how how we should talk about kind of the maturity and where we're going with the container security discussion yeah so as you guess container security is one of our big focus abductor because that's one of the things that people are expecting from a platform especially to run in production my colleague yoga Monica did lots of blog posts recently about how to improve your security in production security is not only a factor of the software itself but on the all the processes that you put in place around it and basically around darker you have to put in place with some kind of processes you have for operating systems like getting the latest release of the official images I don't know if you saw that there's been a blog post like talking where they looked randomly at all the images in docker hub and evaluating them for security issues one of the things that they didn't look at is that the latest releases of operating systems that we have in there in blocker images are just tracking the upstream releases and people who have sound security practices internally I'll just pulling these latest releases all right last question I have for you Patrick it's it easy for people to come I come in here and be like oh well you know biggest threat to vmware is is docker what what I love talking to you is you know this is a real small community I over the last year a lot of former VMware people now working over a doctor and not that they're unhappy with VMware and you know Microsoft is is in the mix you know so I mean this whole community is pulling together and doing a lot of work a lot of contribution you know what do you see out there from the technology community to help mature this whole space yeah I'd say both VMware and Microsoft at the operating system an infrastructure level as well as Google at the orchestration layer VMware a red hat at the operating system layer like everybody is trying to make darker a sound platform to run in production so what I see in all corners is just darker getting solidified and getting part of most people's production infrastructure with all these efforts on the security and stability and processes as well as the development processes there are lots of innovation in the terms of CI CD integration with darker no no she saw the work that cloudbees has been doing for integrating jenkins with darker so doctor is both the platform for apps and for devs and in that in that qualification that the ecosystem is very broad both on the dev tools side as well as on the ops and platform side all right well Patrick unfortunately at a time is always great chatting with you thank you so much for joining us we'll be back with lots more coverage here from being real 2015 and thank you for watching you inseam six months you