foreign welcome back everyone to our special presentation here at thecube with Horizon 3.a I'm John Furrier host thecube here in Palo Alto back it's niho and Tony CEO and co-founder of horizon 3 for deep dive on going under the hood around the big news and also the platform autonomous pen testing changing the game and security great to see you welcome back thank you John I love what you guys have been doing with the cube huge fan been here a bunch of times and yeah looking forward to the conversation let's get into it all right so what what's the market look like and how do you see it evolving we're in a down Market relative to startups some say our data we're reporting on siliconangle in the cube that yeah there might be a bit of downturn in the economy with inflation but the tech Market is booming because the hyperscalers are still pumping out massive scale and still innovating so so you know for the first time in history this is a recession or downturn where there's now Cloud scale players that are an economic engine what's your view on this where's the market heading relative to the downturn and how are you guys navigating that so um I think about it one the there's a lot of belief out there that we're going to hit a downturn and we started to see that we started to see deals get longer and longer to close back in May across the board in the industry we continue to see deals get at least backloaded in the quarter as people understand their procurement how much money they really have to spend what their earnings are going to be so we're seeing this across the board one is quarters becoming lumpier for tech companies and we think that that's going to become kind of the norm over the next over the next year but what's interesting in our space of security testing is a very basic supply and demand problem the demand for security testing has skyrocketed when I was a CIO eight years ago I only had to worry about my on-prem attack surface my perimeter and Insider threat those are my primary threat vectors now if I was a CIO I have to include multiple clouds all of the data in my SAS offerings my Salesforce account and so on as well as work from home threat vectors and other pieces and I've got Regulatory Compliance in Europe in Asia in in the U.S tons of demand for testing and there's just not enough Supply there's only 5 000 certified pen testers in the United States so I think for starters you have a fundamental supply and demand problem that plays to our strength because we're able to bring a tremendous amount of pen testing supply to the table but now let's flip to if you are the CEO of a large security company or whether it's a Consulting shop or so on you've got a whole bunch of deferred revenue in your business model around security testing services and what we've done in our past in previous companies I worked at is if we didn't think we were going to make the money the quarter with product Revenue we would start to unlock some of that deferred Services Revenue to make the number to hit what we expected Wall Street to hit what Wall Street expected of us in testing that's not possible because there's not enough Supply except us so if I'm the CEO of an mssp or a large security company and I need I see a huge backlog of security testing revenue on the table the easy button to convert that to recognized revenue is Horizon 3. and when I think about the next six months and the amount of Revenue misses we're going to see in security shops especially those that can't fulfill their orders I think there's a ripe opportunity for us to win yeah one of the few opportunities where on any Market you win because the forces will drive your flywheel that's exactly right very basic supply and demand forces that are only increasing with pressure and there's no way it takes 10 years just to build a master hacker just it's a very hard complex space we become the easy button to address that supply problem yeah and this and the autonomous aspect makes appsec reviews as new things get pushed with Cloud native developers they're shifting left but still the security policies need to stay Pace as these new vectors threat vectors appear yeah I mean because that's what's happening a new new thing makes a vector possible that's exactly right I think there's two aspects one is the as you in increase change in your environment you need to increase testing they are absolutely correlated the second thing though is you know for 20 years we focused on remote code execution or rces as an industry what was the latest rce that gave an attacker access to my environment but if you look over the past few years that entire mindset has shifted credentials are the new code execution what I mean by that is if I have a large organization with a hundred a thousand ten thousand employees all it takes is one of them to have a password I can crack in credential spray and gain access to as an attacker and once I've gained access to a single user I'm going to systematically snowball that into something of consequence and so I think that the attackers have shifted away from looking for code execution and looked more towards harvesting credentials and cascading credentials from a regular domain user into an admin this brings up the conversation I would like to do it more Deep dive now shift into more of like the real kind of landscape of the market and your positioning and value proposition in that and that is managed services are becoming really popular as we move into this next next wave of super cloud and multi-cloud and hybrid Cloud because I mean multi-cloud and hybrid hybrid than multi-cloud sounds good on paper but the security Ops become big and one of the things we're reporting with here on the cube and siliconangle the past six months is devops has made the developer the IT team because they've essentially run it now in CI CD pipeline as they say that means it's replaced by data Ops or AI Ops or security Ops and data and security kind of go hand in hand so I can see that playing out do you believe that to be true that that's kind of the new operational kind of beach head that's critical and if so secure if data is part of security that makes security the new it yeah I I think that if you think about organizations hell even for Horizon 3 right now I don't need to hire a CIO I'll have a CSO and that CSO will own it and governance risk and compliance and security operations because at the end of the day the most pressing question for me to answer as a CEO is my security posture IIT is a supporting function of that security posture and we see that at say or a growth stage company like Horizon 3 but when I thought about my time at GE Capital we really shifted to this mindset of security by Design architecture as code and it was very much security driven conversation and I think that is the norm going forward and how do you view the idea that you have to enable a managed service provider with security also managing comp and which then manages the company to enable them to have agile security um security is code because what you're getting at is this autonomous layer that's going to be automated away to make the next talented layer whether it's coder or architect scale so the question is what is abstracted away at at automation seems to be the conversation that's coming out of this big cloud native or super cloud next wave of cloud scale I think there's uh there's two Dimensions to that and honestly I think the more interesting Dimension is not the technical side of it but rather think of the Equifax hack a bunch of years ago had Equifax used a managed security services provider would the CEO have been fired after the breach and the answer is probably not I think the CEO would have transferred enough reputational risk in operational risk to the third party mssp to save his job from being you know from him being fired you can look at that across the board I think that if if I were a CIO again I would be hard-pressed to build my own internal security function because I'm accepting that risk as an executive and we saw what just happened at Uber there's a ton of risk coming with that with the with accepting that as a security person so I think in the future the role of the mssp becomes more significant as a mechanism for transferring enough reputational and operational and legal risk to a third party so that you as the Core Company are able to protect yourself and your people now then what you think is a super cloud printables and Concepts being applied at mssp scale and I think that becomes really interesting talk about the talent opportunity because I think the managed service providers point to markets that are growing and changing also having managed service means that the customers can't always hire Talent hence they go to a Channel or a partner this seems to be a key part of the growth in your area talk about the talent aspect of it yeah um think back to what we saw in Cloud so as as Cloud picked up we saw IBM HP other Hardware companies sell more servers but to fewer customers Amazon Google and others right and so I think something similar is going to happen in the security space where I think you're going to see security tools providers selling more volume but to fewer customers that are just really big mssps so that is the the path forward and I think that the underlying Talent issue gives us economies at scale and that's what we saw this with Cloud we're going to see the same thing in the mssp space I've got a density of Talent Plus a density of automation plus a density of of relationships and ecosystem that give mssps a huge economies of scale advantage over everybody else I mean I want to get into the mssp business sounds like I make a lot of money yeah definitely it's profitable no doubt about it like that I got to ask more on the more of the burden side of it because if you're a partner I don't need another training class I don't need another tool I don't need someone saying this is the highest margin product I need to actually downsize my tools so right now there's hundreds of tools that mssps have all the time dealing with and does the customer so tools platforms we've kind of teased this out in previous conversations together but more more relevant to the mssp is what they do to the customers so talk about this uh burden of tools and the socks out there in the in in the landscape how do you how do you view that and what's the conversation like on average an organization has 130 different cyber security tools installed none of those tools were designed to work together none of those tools are from the same vendor and in fact oftentimes they're from vendors that have competing products and so what we don't have and they're still getting breached in the industry we don't have a tools problem we have an Effectiveness problem we have to reduce the number of tools we have get more out of out of the the effectiveness out of the existing infrastructure build muscle memory you know how to detect and respond to a breach and continuously verify that posture I think that's what the the most successful security organizations have mastered the fundamentals and they mastered that by making sure they were effective in detection and response not mastering it by buying the next shiny AI tool on the defensive side okay so you mentioned supply and demand early since you're brought up economics we'll get into the economic equations here when you have great profits that's going to attract more entrance into the marketplace so as more mssps enter the market you're going to start to see a little bit of competition maybe some fud maybe some price competitive price penetration all kinds of different Tactics get out go on there um how does that impact you because now does that impact your price or are you now part of them just competing on their own value what's that mean for the channel as more entrants come in hey you know I can compete against that other one does that create conflict is that an opportunity does are you neutral on that what's the position it's a great question actually I think the way it plays out is one we are neutral two the mssp has to stand on their own with their own unique value proposition otherwise they're going to become commoditized we saw this in the early cloud provider days the cloud providers that were just basically wrapping existing Hardware with with a race to the bottom pricing model didn't survive those that use the the cloud infrastructure as a starting point to build higher value capabilities they're the ones that have succeeded to this day the same Mo I think will occur in mssps which is there's a base level of capability that they've got to be able to deliver and it is the burden of the mssp to innovate effectively to elevate their value problem it's interesting Dynamic and I brought it up mainly because if you believe that this is going to be a growing New Market price erosion is more in mature markets so it's interesting to see that Dynamic come up and we'll see how that handles on the on the economics and just the macro side of it getting more into kind of like the next gen autonomous pen testing is a leading indicator that a new kind of security assessment is here um if I said that to you how do you respond to that what is this new security assessment mean what does that mean for the customer and to the partner and that that relationship down that whole chain yeah um back to I'm wearing a CIO hat right now don't tell me we're secure in PowerPoint show me we're secure Today Show me where we're secure tomorrow and then show me we're secure again next week because that's what matters to me if you can show me we're secure I can understand the risk I'm accepting and articulate it up to my board to my Regulators up until now we've had a PowerPoint tell me where secure culture and security and I just don't think that's going to last all that much longer so I think the future of security testing and assessment is this shift from a PowerPoint report to truly showing me that my I'm secure enough you guys auto-generate those statements now you mentioned that earlier that's exactly right because the other part is you know the classic way to do security reports was garbage in garbage out you had a human kind of theoretically fill out a spreadsheet that magically came up with the risk score or security posture that doesn't work that's a check the box mentality what you want to have is an accurate High Fidelity understanding of your blind spots your threat vectors what data is at risk what credentials are at risk you want to look at those results over time how quickly did I find problems how quickly did I fix them how often did they reoccur and that is how you get to a show me where secure culture whether I'm a company or I'm a channel partner working with Horizon 3.ai I have to put my name on the line and say Here's a service level agreement I'm going to stand behind there's levels of compliance you mentioned that earlier how do you guys help that area because that becomes I call the you know below the line I got to do it anyway usually it's you know they grind out the work but it has to be fundamental because if the threats vectors are increasing and you're handling it like you say you are the way it is real time today tomorrow the next day you got to have that other stuff flow into it can you describe how that works under the hood yeah there's there's two parts to it the first part is that attackers don't have to hack in with zero days they log in with credentials that they found but often what attackers are doing is chaining together different types of problems so if you have 10 different tactics you can chain those together a number of different ways it's not just 10 to the 10th it's it's actually because you don't you don't have to use all the tactics at once this is a very large number of combinations that an attacker can apply upon you is what it comes down to and so at the base level what you want to have is what are the the primary tactics that are being used and those tactics are always being added to and evolving what are the primary outcomes that an attacker is trying to achieve steal your data disrupt your systems become a domain admin and borrow and now what you have is it actually looks more like a chess game algorithm than it does any sort of hard-coded automation or anything else which is based on the pieces on the board the the it infrastructure I've discovered what is the next best action to become a domain admin or steal your data and that's the underlying innovation in IP we've created which is next best action Knowledge Graph analytics and adaptiveness to figure out how to combine different problems together to achieve an objective that an attacker cares about so the 3D chess players out there I'd say that's more like 3D chess are the practitioners implementing it but when I think about compliance managers I don't see 3D chess players I see back office accountants in my mind like okay are they actually even understand what comes out of that so how do you handle the compliance side do you guys just check the boxes there is it not part of it is it yeah I I know I don't Envision the compliance guys on the front lines identifying vectors do you know what it doesn't even know what it means yeah it's a great question when you think about uh the market segmentation I think there are we've seen are three basic types of users you've got the the really mature high frequency security testing purple team type folks and for them we are the the force multiplier for them to secure the environment you then have the middle group where the IT person and the security person are the same individual they are barely Treading Water they don't know what their attack surface is and they don't know what to focus on we end up that's actually where we started with the barely Treading Water Persona and that's why we had a product that helped those Network Engineers become superheroes the third segment are those that view security and compliance as synonymous and they don't really care about continuous they care about running and checking the box for PCI and forever else and those customers while they use us they are better served by our partner ecosystem and that's really so the the first two categories tend to use us directly self-service pen tests as often as they want that compliance-minded folks end up going through our partners because they're better served there steel great to have you on thanks for this deep dive on um under the hood section of the interview appreciate it and I think autonomous is is an indicator Beyond pen testing pen testing has become like okay penetration security but this is not going away where do you see this evolving what's next what's next for Horizon take a minute to give a plug for what's going on with copy how do you see it I know you got good margins you're raising Capital always raising money you're not yet public um looking good right now as they say yeah yeah well I think the first thing is our company strategy is in three chapters chapter one is become the best security testing platform in the industry period that's it and be very good at helping you find and fix your security blind spots that's chapter one we've been crushing it there with great customer attraction great partner traction chapter two which we've started to enter is look at our results over time to help that that GRC officer or auditor accurately assess the security posture of an organization and we're going to enter that chapter about this time next year longer term though the big Vision I have is how do I use offense to inform defense so for me chapter three is how do I get away from just security testing towards autonomous security overall where you can use our security testing platform to identify ways to attack that informs defensive tools exactly where to focus how to adjust and so on and now you've got offset and integrated learning Loop between attack and defense that's the future never been done before Master the art of attack to become a better Defender is the bigger vision of the company love the new paradigm security congratulations been following you guys we will continue to follow you thanks for coming on the Special Report congratulations on the new Market expansion International going indirect that a big way congratulations thank you John appreciate it okay this is a special presentation with the cube and Horizon 3.ai I'm John Furrier your host thanks for watching thank you

(upbeat music) >> Hello everyone, welcome back to our special presentation with TheCUBE and Horizon3.ai. I'm John Ferrier host of TheCUBE here in Palo Alto with the CEO and co-founder of Horizon3 Snehal Antani who's here with me to talk about the big news, we've been talking about your global expansion, congratulations on the growth, and international, and just overall success of, what looks like to be a very high margin, relevant business in the security space. >> Yeah, thank you John. Very excited to be here and especially this focus on partners, because partners in cyber security have such an important role and we've built a company that enables partners to grow with us. >> We had a chance to talk to some of your staff and some of the people in the industry around the channel. I mean the old school technology vendors would go in build channels and distributed resellers, VARs value added resellers, value added businesses all kinds of different ways to serve customers, indirectly. And then you got the direct sales force. You guys seem to have a perfect product for a hard, profitable, market where channels are starved for solutions in the security space. What did you guys find as you guys launched this? What was some of the feedback? What was some of the reasoning behind- obviously indirect sales helps your margins, you enable MSPs to sell for you, but what's the, what was the epiphany? >> So when you think about the telecommunications industry back in the two thousands, we always talked about the last mile in Telco, right? It was easy to get fiber run to the neighborhood but the last mile from the neighborhood to the house was very difficult. So what we found during Covid was, this was especially true in cybersecurity because in Covid you've got individuals that need security capabilities whether they are IT directors, barely treading water or CSOs and so on. And they needed these trusted relationships to decide what security technologies to use, how to improve their posture. And they're not going to go to just some website to learn. They've got years of relationships built with those regional partners, those regional resellers MSSPs, MSPs, IT consulting shops. So what we did over the past two years was embrace this idea that regional partners are the last mile of cybersecurity. So how do we build a product and a business model that enables those last miles channel partners to make even more revenue using us to underpin their offerings and services and get them to take advantage of the trust that they've built over many hard years and use that trust to not only improve the posture of their customers but have Horizon3 become a force enabler along the way. >> Yeah it's interesting you have that pre-built channel makeup, but also new opportunities for people to bring security 'cause you guys have the node zero capability. 'Cause pen testing is only one of the things you guys are starting to do now. And everyone knows, we've talked about this on our previous interviews, it's hard. People have, y'know, all kinds of AppSec review, application reviews, all the time. And if you're doing cloud native you're constantly pushing new code. So the need for a pen test is kind of a continuous thing. Okay, So I get that. The other thing that I found out on the interviews was, and I want to get your reaction to this, is that there's an existing channel of pen testers that are high IQ, high paid services. So it almost feels like you guys have created kind of like a way to automate some of the basic stuff but still enable the existing folks out there doing this work. I won't say it was below their pay grade but a lot of it was kind of, y'know remedial things, explain and react to that. Because I think that's a key nuance point to this expansion. >> Yeah, so the key thing is how do you run a security test at scale? So if you are a human pen tester maybe in a couple of weeks you could pen test 5,000 hosts. If you're really good, maybe 10,000 hosts. But when you've got a large manufacturer or a bank that's got hundreds of thousands or millions of hosts, there's no way a human's going to be able to do that. So for the really large shops, what we've found is this idea of human machine teaming. Where you run us to run infrastructure testing at scale we'll conduct reconnaissance, we'll do exploitation at scale, we'll find all the juicy interesting stuff. And then that frees up the time for the human to focus on the stuff humans are gifted at. And there's this joke that "Let us focus on all the things that will test at scale, so the human can focus on the problems that get them to speak at DEFCON and let them focus on the really hard interesting juicy stuff while we are executing tests. And at a large scale that's important but also think about Europe. In Germany there are less than 600 certified pen testers for the entire country, in Norway I think there's less than 85, in Estonia there's less than 20. There's just not enough supply of certified testers to be able to effectively meet the demand. >> It's interesting, when you ever have to see these inflection points in industries there's always a 10x multiple or some multiple inflection point that kicks up the growth. Google pioneered site reliability engineers you're seeing it now in cloud native with containers and Kubernetes writing scripts is now going to be more about architecture operating large scale systems. So instead of being a pen tester they're now a pen architect. >> Yeah, well in many ways it's a security by design philosophy which is, I would rather verify my architecture up front, verify my security posture up front, and not wait for the bad guys to show up to poke holes in my environment. And then even economically, the way we design the product most of our users are not pen testers they're actually IT admins, network engineers, people with the CISSP type certification and we give them superpowers. And there are, in back to 10x, for every one certified ethical hacker there are 10 to 20 certified CISSPs. So even the entire experience was designed around those types of security practitioners and network engineers versus the very exquisite pen test types. >> Yeah, it's a great market opportunity. I think this is going to be a big kind of a, an example of how scale works So congratulations. Couple questions I had for you for this announcement was, what are some of the obstacles that you see organizations facing that the channel partners can participate in? 'Cause again, more feet on the street, I get the expansion, but what problems are they solving? >> Yeah, when you think about, back when I was a CIO, there was a very well defined journey I went through. Assess my security posture, I have to assess it at least once or twice a year, I want to assess it as often as possible. From there, as I find problems, the hardest part of my job was deciding what not to fix. And I didn't have enough people to remediate all the issues. So the natural next step is how do I get surge expertise to remediate all of the findings from those assessments. From there, the next thing is, okay while I'm fixing those problems, did my security team or outsourced MSSP detect and respond to those attacks? Not, and if so, great, if not what are the blind spots in my detection response? And then the final step is being that trusted advisor to the executive team, the board, and the regulators around that virtual CISO or strategic security advice. So that is the spectrum of requirements that any customer has. Assess, remediate, verify your detections, and then strategic advice and guidance. Every channel partner has some aspect of those businesses within their portfolio and we enable revenue to be generated for our partners across every one of those. Use us to do assessments at scale, automatically generate the statement of work for everything that we've found, and then our partners make money fixing the issues that we've identified. Use us to audit the blind spots of your security stack and then finally use our results over time to provide strategic advice to the CISO, the board, and their regulators. >> Yeah, it's great, great gap you fill for sure. And with the op, the scale you give other pen testers a lot of growth there. The question that comes up though, I have to ask you and this is what's on people's minds, probably, 'cause it would be, first thing that I would ask Well you guys are kind of new and I get this thing. So what will make you an ideal partner? Why Horizon3.ai as the partner? What do you bring to the table? >> Yeah, I think there's a few things. One is we're approaching our three year anniversary, we've scaled very quickly, we've built a great team. But what differentiates us is our authenticity at scale, our transparency of how we work as a partner, and the fact that we've built a company, that very specifically enables partners to make money, high quality money. In my previous companies I've worked at, partners are kind of relegated to doing low level professional services type work. And if I'm a services shop, that's not going to be very valuable for me. That's a one and done come in, install a product, tune, and so on. What I want, if I'm a partner, is working with technology companies that care deeply about my growth as a partner and then is creating an offering that allows me to white label it, to build my own high margin business above it, give me predictable cost of goods sold so I can build and staff a high functioning organization. That's what we did at Horizon3 is we built the entire company around enabling MSSPs, MSPs, consulting shops, and so on. >> From day one. This is- >> From day one, that was the goal. And so the entire company's been designed you can white label the product, the entire experience can look like yours if you want it to be. The entire company was built from day one to be channel friendly >> This is again, a key point again, I want to double click on that because y'know, at the end of the day, money making's pretty big important thing. Partners don't, channel partners, and resellers, and partners don't want to lose their customer. Want to add value and make high margins. So is it easy to use? How do I consume it? How do I deploy it? You feel comfortable that you guys can deliver on that. >> Yeah, and in fact, a big cultural aspect of Horizon3 is we let our results do the talking. So I don't need to convince people through PowerPoint. What partners will do is they'll show up, they will run us for themselves, they'll run us against some trusted customers of theirs. They get blown away by the results. They get a Horizon3 tattoo at the end. >> Yeah. >> And then they become our biggest champions and advocates. >> And ultimately when you have that land and you can show results and it's a white label, it's an instant money maker. Right? For the partner. That's great Snehal, thanks so much for coming on. Really appreciate it. That's a wrap here, big news and the big news announcement around Horizon3.ai global expansion, new opportunities new channel partners, great product, good for the channel, makes money, helps customers. Can't beat that. I'm John Ferrier with TheCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

hello I'm John Furrier with thecube and welcome to this special presentation of the cube and Horizon 3.ai they're announcing a global partner first approach expanding their successful pen testing product Net Zero you're going to hear from leading experts in their staff their CEO positioning themselves for a successful Channel distribution expansion internationally in Europe Middle East Africa and Asia Pacific in this Cube special presentation you'll hear about the expansion the expanse partner program giving Partners a unique opportunity to offer Net Zero to their customers Innovation and Pen testing is going International with Horizon 3.ai enjoy the program [Music] welcome back everyone to the cube and Horizon 3.ai special presentation I'm John Furrier host of thecube we're here with Jennifer Lee head of Channel sales at Horizon 3.ai Jennifer welcome to the cube thanks for coming on great well thank you for having me so big news around Horizon 3.aa driving Channel first commitment you guys are expanding the channel partner program to include all kinds of new rewards incentives training programs help educate you know Partners really drive more recurring Revenue certainly cloud and Cloud scale has done that you got a great product that fits into that kind of Channel model great Services you can wrap around it good stuff so let's get into it what are you guys doing what are what are you guys doing with this news why is this so important yeah for sure so um yeah we like you said we recently expanded our Channel partner program um the driving force behind it was really just um to align our like you said our Channel first commitment um and creating awareness around the importance of our partner ecosystems um so that's it's really how we go to market is is through the channel and a great International Focus I've talked with the CEO so you know about the solution and he broke down all the action on why it's important on the product side but why now on the go to market change what's the what's the why behind this big this news on the channel yeah for sure so um we are doing this now really to align our business strategy which is built on the concept of enabling our partners to create a high value high margin business on top of our platform and so um we offer a solution called node zero it provides autonomous pen testing as a service and it allows organizations to continuously verify their security posture um so we our company vision we have this tagline that states that our pen testing enables organizations to see themselves Through The Eyes of an attacker and um we use the like the attacker's perspective to identify exploitable weaknesses and vulnerabilities so we created this partner program from a perspective of the partner so the partner's perspective and we've built It Through The Eyes of our partner right so we're prioritizing really what the partner is looking for and uh will ensure like Mutual success for us yeah the partners always want to get in front of the customers and bring new stuff to them pen tests have traditionally been really expensive uh and so bringing it down in one to a service level that's one affordable and has flexibility to it allows a lot of capability so I imagine people getting excited by it so I have to ask you about the program What specifically are you guys doing can you share any details around what it means for the partners what they get what's in it for them can you just break down some of the mechanics and mechanisms or or details yeah yep um you know we're really looking to create business alignment um and like I said establish Mutual success with our partners so we've got two um two key elements that we were really focused on um that we bring to the partners so the opportunity the profit margin expansion is one of them and um a way for our partners to really differentiate themselves and stay relevant in the market so um we've restructured our discount model really um you know highlighting profitability and maximizing profitability and uh this includes our deal registration we've we've created deal registration program we've increased discount for partners who take part in our partner certification uh trainings and we've we have some other partner incentives uh that we we've created that that's going to help out there we've we put this all so we've recently Gone live with our partner portal um it's a Consolidated experience for our partners where they can access our our sales tools and we really view our partners as an extension of our sales and Technical teams and so we've extended all of our our training material that we use internally we've made it available to our partners through our partner portal um we've um I'm trying I'm thinking now back what else is in that partner portal here we've got our partner certification information so all the content that's delivered during that training can be found in the portal we've got deal registration uh um co-branded marketing materials pipeline management and so um this this portal gives our partners a One-Stop place to to go to find all that information um and then just really quickly on the second part of that that I mentioned is our technology really is um really disruptive to the market so you know like you said autonomous pen testing it's um it's still it's well it's still still relatively new topic uh for security practitioners and um it's proven to be really disruptive so um that on top of um just well recently we found an article that um that mentioned by markets and markets that reports that the global pen testing markets really expanding and so it's expected to grow to like 2.7 billion um by 2027. so the Market's there right the Market's expanding it's growing and so for our partners it's just really allows them to grow their revenue um across their customer base expand their customer base and offering this High profit margin while you know getting in early to Market on this just disruptive technology big Market a lot of opportunities to make some money people love to put more margin on on those deals especially when you can bring a great solution that everyone knows is hard to do so I think that's going to provide a lot of value is there is there a type of partner that you guys see emerging or you aligning with you mentioned the alignment with the partners I can see how that the training and the incentives are all there sounds like it's all going well is there a type of partner that's resonating the most or is there categories of partners that can take advantage of this yeah absolutely so we work with all different kinds of Partners we work with our traditional resale Partners um we've worked we're working with systems integrators we have a really strong MSP mssp program um we've got Consulting partners and the Consulting Partners especially with the ones that offer pen test services so we they use us as a as we act as a force multiplier just really offering them profit margin expansion um opportunity there we've got some technology partner partners that we really work with for co-cell opportunities and then we've got our Cloud Partners um you'd mentioned that earlier and so we are in AWS Marketplace so our ccpo partners we're part of the ISP accelerate program um so we we're doing a lot there with our Cloud partners and um of course we uh we go to market with uh distribution Partners as well gotta love the opportunity for more margin expansion every kind of partner wants to put more gross profit on their deals is there a certification involved I have to ask is there like do you get do people get certified or is it just you get trained is it self-paced training is it in person how are you guys doing the whole training certification thing because is that is that a requirement yeah absolutely so we do offer a certification program and um it's been very popular this includes a a seller's portion and an operator portion and and so um this is at no cost to our partners and um we operate both virtually it's it's law it's virtually but live it's not self-paced and we also have in person um you know sessions as well and we also can customize these to any partners that have a large group of people and we can just we can do one in person or virtual just specifically for that partner well any kind of incentive opportunities and marketing opportunities everyone loves to get the uh get the deals just kind of rolling in leads from what we can see if our early reporting this looks like a hot product price wise service level wise what incentive do you guys thinking about and and Joint marketing you mentioned co-sell earlier in pipeline so I was kind of kind of honing in on that piece sure and yes and then to follow along with our partner certification program we do incentivize our partners there if they have a certain number certified their discount increases so that's part of it we have our deal registration program that increases discount as well um and then we do have some um some partner incentives that are wrapped around meeting setting and um moving moving opportunities along to uh proof of value gotta love the education driving value I have to ask you so you've been around the industry you've seen the channel relationships out there you're seeing companies old school new school you know uh Horizon 3.ai is kind of like that new school very cloud specific a lot of Leverage with we mentioned AWS and all the clouds um why is the company so hot right now why did you join them and what's why are people attracted to this company what's the what's the attraction what's the vibe what do you what do you see and what what do you use what did you see in in this company well this is just you know like I said it's very disruptive um it's really in high demand right now and um and and just because because it's new to Market and uh a newer technology so we are we can collaborate with a manual pen tester um we can you know we can allow our customers to run their pen test um with with no specialty teams and um and and then so we and like you know like I said we can allow our partners can actually build businesses profitable businesses so we can they can use our product to increase their services revenue and um and build their business model you know around around our services what's interesting about the pen test thing is that it's very expensive and time consuming the people who do them are very talented people that could be working on really bigger things in the in absolutely customers so bringing this into the channel allows them if you look at the price Delta between a pen test and then what you guys are offering I mean that's a huge margin Gap between street price of say today's pen test and what you guys offer when you show people that they follow do they say too good to be true I mean what are some of the things that people say when you kind of show them that are they like scratch their head like come on what's the what's the catch here right so the cost savings is a huge is huge for us um and then also you know like I said working as a force multiplier with a pen testing company that offers the services and so they can they can do their their annual manual pen tests that may be required around compliance regulations and then we can we can act as the continuous verification of their security um um you know that that they can run um weekly and so it's just um you know it's just an addition to to what they're offering already and an expansion so Jennifer thanks for coming on thecube really appreciate you uh coming on sharing the insights on the channel uh what's next what can we expect from the channel group what are you thinking what's going on right so we're really looking to expand our our Channel um footprint and um very strategically uh we've got um we've got some big plans um for for Horizon 3.ai awesome well thanks for coming on really appreciate it you're watching thecube the leader in high tech Enterprise coverage [Music] [Music] hello and welcome to the Cube's special presentation with Horizon 3.ai with Raina Richter vice president of emea Europe Middle East and Africa and Asia Pacific APAC for Horizon 3 today welcome to this special Cube presentation thanks for joining us thank you for the invitation so Horizon 3 a guy driving Global expansion big international news with a partner first approach you guys are expanding internationally let's get into it you guys are driving this new expanse partner program to new heights tell us about it what are you seeing in the momentum why the expansion what's all the news about well I would say uh yeah in in international we have I would say a similar similar situation like in the US um there is a global shortage of well-educated penetration testers on the one hand side on the other side um we have a raising demand of uh network and infrastructure security and with our approach of an uh autonomous penetration testing I I believe we are totally on top of the game um especially as we have also now uh starting with an international instance that means for example if a customer in Europe is using uh our service node zero he will be connected to a node zero instance which is located inside the European Union and therefore he has doesn't have to worry about the conflict between the European the gdpr regulations versus the US Cloud act and I would say there we have a total good package for our partners that they can provide differentiators to their customers you know we've had great conversations here on thecube with the CEO and the founder of the company around the leverage of the cloud and how successful that's been for the company and honestly I can just Connect the Dots here but I'd like you to weigh in more on how that translates into the go to market here because you got great Cloud scale with with the security product you guys are having success with great leverage there I've seen a lot of success there what's the momentum on the channel partner program internationally why is it so important to you is it just the regional segmentation is it the economics why the momentum well there are it's there are multiple issues first of all there is a raising demand in penetration testing um and don't forget that uh in international we have a much higher level in number a number or percentage in SMB and mid-market customers so these customers typically most of them even didn't have a pen test done once a year so for them pen testing was just too expensive now with our offering together with our partners we can provide different uh ways how customers could get an autonomous pen testing done more than once a year with even lower costs than they had with with a traditional manual paint test so and that is because we have our uh Consulting plus package which is for typically pain testers they can go out and can do a much faster much quicker and their pain test at many customers once in after each other so they can do more pain tests on a lower more attractive price on the other side there are others what even the same ones who are providing um node zero as an mssp service so they can go after s p customers saying okay well you only have a couple of hundred uh IP addresses no worries we have the perfect package for you and then you have let's say the mid Market let's say the thousands and more employees then they might even have an annual subscription very traditional but for all of them it's all the same the customer or the service provider doesn't need a piece of Hardware they only need to install a small piece of a Docker container and that's it and that makes it so so smooth to go in and say okay Mr customer we just put in this this virtual attacker into your network and that's it and and all the rest is done and within within three clicks they are they can act like a pen tester with 20 years of experience and that's going to be very Channel friendly and partner friendly I can almost imagine so I have to ask you and thank you for calling the break calling out that breakdown and and segmentation that was good that was very helpful for me to understand but I want to follow up if you don't mind um what type of partners are you seeing the most traction with and why well I would say at the beginning typically you have the the innovators the early adapters typically Boutique size of Partners they start because they they are always looking for Innovation and those are the ones you they start in the beginning so we have a wide range of Partners having mostly even um managed by the owner of the company so uh they immediately understand okay there is the value and they can change their offering they're changing their offering in terms of penetration testing because they can do more pen tests and they can then add other ones or we have those ones who offer 10 tests services but they did not have their own pen testers so they had to go out on the open market and Source paint testing experts um to get the pen test at a particular customer done and now with node zero they're totally independent they can't go out and say okay Mr customer here's the here's the service that's it we turn it on and within an hour you're up and running totally yeah and those pen tests are usually expensive and hard to do now it's right in line with the sales delivery pretty interesting for a partner absolutely but on the other hand side we are not killing the pain testers business we do something we're providing with no tiers I would call something like the foundation work the foundational work of having an an ongoing penetration testing of the infrastructure the operating system and the pen testers by themselves they can concentrate in the future on things like application pen testing for example so those Services which we we're not touching so we're not killing the paint tester Market we're just taking away the ongoing um let's say foundation work call it that way yeah yeah that was one of my questions I was going to ask is there's a lot of interest in this autonomous pen testing one because it's expensive to do because those skills are required are in need and they're expensive so you kind of cover the entry level and the blockers that are in there I've seen people say to me this pen test becomes a blocker for getting things done so there's been a lot of interest in the autonomous pen testing and for organizations to have that posture and it's an overseas issue too because now you have that that ongoing thing so can you explain that particular benefit for an organization to have that continuously verifying an organization's posture yep certainly so I would say um typically you are you you have to do your patches you have to bring in new versions of operating systems of different Services of uh um operating systems of some components and and they are always bringing new vulnerabilities the difference here is that with node zero we are telling the customer or the partner package we're telling them which are the executable vulnerabilities because previously they might have had um a vulnerability scanner so this vulnerability scanner brought up hundreds or even thousands of cves but didn't say anything about which of them are vulnerable really executable and then you need an expert digging in one cve after the other finding out is it is it really executable yes or no and that is where you need highly paid experts which we have a shortage so with notes here now we can say okay we tell you exactly which ones are the ones you should work on because those are the ones which are executable we rank them accordingly to the risk level how easily they can be used and by a sudden and then the good thing is convert it or indifference to the traditional penetration test they don't have to wait for a year for the next pain test to find out if the fixing was effective they weren't just the next scan and say Yes closed vulnerability is gone the time is really valuable and if you're doing any devops Cloud native you're always pushing new things so pen test ongoing pen testing is actually a benefit just in general as a kind of hygiene so really really interesting solution really bring that global scale is going to be a new new coverage area for us for sure I have to ask you if you don't mind answering what particular region are you focused on or plan to Target for this next phase of growth well at this moment we are concentrating on the countries inside the European Union Plus the United Kingdom um but we are and they are of course logically I'm based into Frankfurt area that means we cover more or less the countries just around so it's like the total dark region Germany Switzerland Austria plus the Netherlands but we also already have Partners in the nordics like in Finland or in Sweden um so it's it's it it's rapidly we have Partners already in the UK and it's rapidly growing so I'm for example we are now starting with some activities in Singapore um um and also in the in the Middle East area um very important we uh depending on let's say the the way how to do business currently we try to concentrate on those countries where we can have um let's say um at least English as an accepted business language great is there any particular region you're having the most success with right now is it sounds like European Union's um kind of first wave what's them yes that's the first definitely that's the first wave and now we're also getting the uh the European instance up and running it's clearly our commitment also to the market saying okay we know there are certain dedicated uh requirements and we take care of this and and we're just launching it we're building up this one uh the instance um in the AWS uh service center here in Frankfurt also with some dedicated Hardware internet in a data center in Frankfurt where we have with the date six by the way uh the highest internet interconnection bandwidth on the planet so we have very short latency to wherever you are on on the globe that's a great that's a great call outfit benefit too I was going to ask that what are some of the benefits your partners are seeing in emea and Asia Pacific well I would say um the the benefits is for them it's clearly they can they can uh talk with customers and can offer customers penetration testing which they before and even didn't think about because it penetrates penetration testing in a traditional way was simply too expensive for them too complex the preparation time was too long um they didn't have even have the capacity uh to um to support a pain an external pain tester now with this service you can go in and say even if they Mr customer we can do a test with you in a couple of minutes within we have installed the docker container within 10 minutes we have the pen test started that's it and then we just wait and and I would say that is we'll we are we are seeing so many aha moments then now because on the partner side when they see node zero the first time working it's like this wow that is great and then they work out to customers and and show it to their typically at the beginning mostly the friendly customers like wow that's great I need that and and I would say um the feedback from the partners is that is a service where I do not have to evangelize the customer everybody understands penetration testing I don't have to say describe what it is they understand the customer understanding immediately yes penetration testing good about that I know I should do it but uh too complex too expensive now with the name is for example as an mssp service provided from one of our partners but it's getting easy yeah it's great and it's great great benefit there I mean I gotta say I'm a huge fan of what you guys are doing I like this continuous automation that's a major benefit to anyone doing devops or any kind of modern application development this is just a godsend for them this is really good and like you said the pen testers that are doing it they were kind of coming down from their expertise to kind of do things that should have been automated they get to focus on the bigger ticket items that's a really big point so we free them we free the pain testers for the higher level elements of the penetration testing segment and that is typically the application testing which is currently far away from being automated yeah and that's where the most critical workloads are and I think this is the nice balance congratulations on the international expansion of the program and thanks for coming on this special presentation really I really appreciate it thank you you're welcome okay this is thecube special presentation you know check out pen test automation International expansion Horizon 3 dot AI uh really Innovative solution in our next segment Chris Hill sector head for strategic accounts will discuss the power of Horizon 3.ai and Splunk in action you're watching the cube the leader in high tech Enterprise coverage foreign [Music] [Music] welcome back everyone to the cube and Horizon 3.ai special presentation I'm John Furrier host of thecube we're with Chris Hill sector head for strategic accounts and federal at Horizon 3.ai a great Innovative company Chris great to see you thanks for coming on thecube yeah like I said uh you know great to meet you John long time listener first time caller so excited to be here with you guys yeah we were talking before camera you had Splunk back in 2013 and I think 2012 was our first splunk.com and boy man you know talk about being in the right place at the right time now we're at another inflection point and Splunk continues to be relevant um and continuing to have that data driving Security in that interplay and your CEO former CTO of his plug as well at Horizon who's been on before really Innovative product you guys have but you know yeah don't wait for a breach to find out if you're logging the right data this is the topic of this thread Splunk is very much part of this new international expansion announcement uh with you guys tell us what are some of the challenges that you see where this is relevant for the Splunk and Horizon AI as you guys expand uh node zero out internationally yeah well so across so you know my role uh within Splunk it was uh working with our most strategic accounts and so I looked back to 2013 and I think about the sales process like working with with our small customers you know it was um it was still very siled back then like I was selling to an I.T team that was either using this for it operations um we generally would always even say yeah although we do security we weren't really designed for it we're a log management tool and we I'm sure you remember back then John we were like sort of stepping into the security space and and the public sector domain that I was in you know security was 70 of what we did when I look back to sort of uh the transformation that I was witnessing in that digital transformation um you know when I look at like 2019 to today you look at how uh the IT team and the security teams are being have been forced to break down those barriers that they used to sort of be silent away would not commute communicate one you know the security guys would be like oh this is my box I.T you're not allowed in today you can't get away with that and I think that the value that we bring to you know and of course Splunk has been a huge leader in that space and continues to do Innovation across the board but I think what we've we're seeing in the space and I was talking with Patrick Coughlin the SVP of uh security markets about this is that you know what we've been able to do with Splunk is build a purpose-built solution that allows Splunk to eat more data so Splunk itself is ulk know it's an ingest engine right the great reason people bought it was you could build these really fast dashboards and grab intelligence out of it but without data it doesn't do anything right so how do you drive and how do you bring more data in and most importantly from a customer perspective how do you bring the right data in and so if you think about what node zero and what we're doing in a horizon 3 is that sure we do pen testing but because we're an autonomous pen testing tool we do it continuously so this whole thought I'd be like oh crud like my customers oh yeah we got a pen test coming up it's gonna be six weeks the week oh yeah you know and everyone's gonna sit on their hands call me back in two months Chris we'll talk to you then right not not a real efficient way to test your environment and shoot we saw that with Uber this week right um you know and that's a case where we could have helped oh just right we could explain the Uber thing because it was a contractor just give a quick highlight of what happened so you can connect the doctor yeah no problem so um it was uh I got I think it was yeah one of those uh you know games where they would try and test an environment um and with the uh pen tester did was he kept on calling them MFA guys being like I need to reset my password we need to set my right password and eventually the um the customer service guy said okay I'm resetting it once he had reset and bypassed the multi-factor authentication he then was able to get in and get access to the building area that he was in or I think not the domain but he was able to gain access to a partial part of that Network he then paralleled over to what I would assume is like a VA VMware or some virtual machine that had notes that had all of the credentials for logging into various domains and So within minutes they had access and that's the sort of stuff that we do you know a lot of these tools like um you know you think about the cacophony of tools that are out there in a GTA architect architecture right I'm gonna get like a z-scale or I'm going to have uh octum and I have a Splunk I've been into the solar system I mean I don't mean to name names we have crowdstriker or Sentinel one in there it's just it's a cacophony of things that don't work together they weren't designed work together and so we have seen so many times in our business through our customer support and just working with customers when we do their pen tests that there will be 5 000 servers out there three are misconfigured those three misconfigurations will create the open door because remember the hacker only needs to be right once the defender needs to be right all the time and that's the challenge and so that's what I'm really passionate about what we're doing uh here at Horizon three I see this my digital transformation migration and security going on which uh we're at the tip of the spear it's why I joined sey Hall coming on this journey uh and just super excited about where the path's going and super excited about the relationship with Splunk I get into more details on some of the specifics of that but um you know well you're nailing I mean we've been doing a lot of things on super cloud and this next gen environment we're calling it next gen you're really seeing devops obviously devsecops has already won the it role has moved to the developer shift left is an indicator of that it's one of the many examples higher velocity code software supply chain you hear these things that means that it is now in the developer hands it is replaced by the new Ops data Ops teams and security where there's a lot of horizontal thinking to your point about access there's no more perimeter huge 100 right is really right on things one time you know to get in there once you're in then you can hang out move around move laterally big problem okay so we get that now the challenges for these teams as they are transitioning organizationally how do they figure out what to do okay this is the next step they already have Splunk so now they're kind of in transition while protecting for a hundred percent ratio of success so how would you look at that and describe the challenge is what do they do what is it what are the teams facing with their data and what's next what are they what are they what action do they take so let's use some vernacular that folks will know so if I think about devsecops right we both know what that means that I'm going to build security into the app it normally talks about sec devops right how am I building security around the perimeter of what's going inside my ecosystem and what are they doing and so if you think about what we're able to do with somebody like Splunk is we can pen test the entire environment from Soup To Nuts right so I'm going to test the end points through to its I'm going to look for misconfigurations I'm going to I'm going to look for um uh credential exposed credentials you know I'm going to look for anything I can in the environment again I'm going to do it at light speed and and what what we're doing for that SEC devops space is to you know did you detect that we were in your environment so did we alert Splunk or the Sim that there's someone in the environment laterally moving around did they more importantly did they log us into their environment and when do they detect that log to trigger that log did they alert on us and then finally most importantly for every CSO out there is going to be did they stop us and so that's how we we do this and I think you when speaking with um stay Hall before you know we've come up with this um boils but we call it fine fix verifying so what we do is we go in is we act as the attacker right we act in a production environment so we're not going to be we're a passive attacker but we will go in on credentialed on agents but we have to assume to have an assumed breach model which means we're going to put a Docker container in your environment and then we're going to fingerprint the environment so we're going to go out and do an asset survey now that's something that's not something that Splunk does super well you know so can Splunk see all the assets do the same assets marry up we're going to log all that data and think and then put load that into this long Sim or the smoke logging tools just to have it in Enterprise right that's an immediate future ad that they've got um and then we've got the fix so once we've completed our pen test um we are then going to generate a report and we can talk about these in a little bit later but the reports will show an executive summary the assets that we found which would be your asset Discovery aspect of that a fix report and the fixed report I think is probably the most important one it will go down and identify what we did how we did it and then how to fix that and then from that the pen tester or the organization should fix those then they go back and run another test and then they validate like a change detection environment to see hey did those fixes taste play take place and you know snehaw when he was the CTO of jsoc he shared with me a number of times about it's like man there would be 15 more items on next week's punch sheet that we didn't know about and it's and it has to do with how we you know how they were uh prioritizing the cves and whatnot because they would take all CBDs it was critical or non-critical and it's like we are able to create context in that environment that feeds better information into Splunk and whatnot that brings that brings up the efficiency for Splunk specifically the teams out there by the way the burnout thing is real I mean this whole I just finished my list and I got 15 more or whatever the list just can keeps growing how did node zero specifically help Splunk teams be more efficient like that's the question I want to get at because this seems like a very scale way for Splunk customers and teams service teams to be more so the question is how does node zero help make Splunk specifically their service teams be more efficient so so today in our early interactions we're building customers we've seen are five things um and I'll start with sort of identifying the blind spots right so kind of what I just talked about with you did we detect did we log did we alert did they stop node zero right and so I would I put that you know a more Layman's third grade term and if I was going to beat a fifth grader at this game would be we can be the sparring partner for a Splunk Enterprise customer a Splunk Essentials customer someone using Splunk soar or even just an Enterprise Splunk customer that may be a small shop with three people and just wants to know where am I exposed so by creating and generating these reports and then having um the API that actually generates the dashboard they can take all of these events that we've logged and log them in and then where that then comes in is number two is how do we prioritize those logs right so how do we create visibility to logs that that um are have critical impacts and again as I mentioned earlier not all cves are high impact regard and also not all or low right so if you daisy chain a bunch of low cves together boom I've got a mission critical AP uh CPE that needs to be fixed now such as a credential moving to an NT box that's got a text file with a bunch of passwords on it that would be very bad um and then third would be uh verifying that you have all of the hosts so one of the things that splunk's not particularly great at and they'll literate themselves they don't do asset Discovery so dude what assets do we see and what are they logging from that um and then for from um for every event that they are able to identify one of the cool things that we can do is actually create this low code no code environment so they could let you know Splunk customers can use Splunk sword to actually triage events and prioritize that event so where they're being routed within it to optimize the Sox team time to Market or time to triage any given event obviously reducing MTR and then finally I think one of the neatest things that we'll be seeing us develop is um our ability to build glass cables so behind me you'll see one of our triage events and how we build uh a Lockheed Martin kill chain on that with a glass table which is very familiar to the community we're going to have the ability and not too distant future to allow people to search observe on those iocs and if people aren't familiar with it ioc it's an instant of a compromise so that's a vector that we want to drill into and of course who's better at Drilling in the data and smoke yeah this is a critter this is an awesome Synergy there I mean I can see a Splunk customer going man this just gives me so much more capability action actionability and also real understanding and I think this is what I want to dig into if you don't mind understanding that critical impact okay is kind of where I see this coming got the data data ingest now data's data but the question is what not to log you know where are things misconfigured these are critical questions so can you talk about what it means to understand critical impact yeah so I think you know going back to the things that I just spoke about a lot of those cves where you'll see um uh low low low and then you daisy chain together and they're suddenly like oh this is high now but then your other impact of like if you're if you're a Splunk customer you know and I had it I had several of them I had one customer that you know terabytes of McAfee data being brought in and it was like all right there's a lot of other data that you probably also want to bring but they could only afford wanted to do certain data sets because that's and they didn't know how to prioritize or filter those data sets and so we provide that opportunity to say hey these are the critical ones to bring in but there's also the ones that you don't necessarily need to bring in because low cve in this case really does mean low cve like an ILO server would be one that um that's the print server uh where the uh your admin credentials are on on like a printer and so there will be credentials on that that's something that a hacker might go in to look at so although the cve on it is low is if you daisy chain with somebody that's able to get into that you might say Ah that's high and we would then potentially rank it giving our AI logic to say that's a moderate so put it on the scale and we prioritize those versus uh of all of these scanners just going to give you a bunch of CDs and good luck and translating that if I if I can and tell me if I'm wrong that kind of speaks to that whole lateral movement that's it challenge right print serve a great example looks stupid low end who's going to want to deal with the print server oh but it's connected into a critical system there's a path is that kind of what you're getting at yeah I use Daisy Chain I think that's from the community they came from uh but it's just a lateral movement it's exactly what they're doing in those low level low critical lateral movements is where the hackers are getting in right so that's the beauty thing about the uh the Uber example is that who would have thought you know I've got my monthly Factor authentication going in a human made a mistake we can't we can't not expect humans to make mistakes we're fallible right the reality is is once they were in the environment they could have protected themselves by running enough pen tests to know that they had certain uh exposed credentials that would have stopped the breach and they did not had not done that in their environment and I'm not poking yeah but it's an interesting Trend though I mean it's obvious if sometimes those low end items are also not protected well so it's easy to get at from a hacker standpoint but also the people in charge of them can be fished easily or spearfished because they're not paying attention because they don't have to no one ever told them hey be careful yeah for the community that I came from John that's exactly how they they would uh meet you at a uh an International Event um introduce themselves as a graduate student these are National actor States uh would you mind reviewing my thesis on such and such and I was at Adobe at the time that I was working on this instead of having to get the PDF they opened the PDF and whoever that customer was launches and I don't know if you remember back in like 2008 time frame there was a lot of issues around IP being by a nation state being stolen from the United States and that's exactly how they did it and John that's or LinkedIn hey I want to get a joke we want to hire you double the salary oh I'm gonna click on that for sure you know yeah right exactly yeah the one thing I would say to you is like uh when we look at like sort of you know because I think we did 10 000 pen tests last year is it's probably over that now you know we have these sort of top 10 ways that we think and find people coming into the environment the funniest thing is that only one of them is a cve related vulnerability like uh you know you guys know what they are right so it's it but it's it's like two percent of the attacks are occurring through the cves but yeah there's all that attention spent to that and very little attention spent to this pen testing side which is sort of this continuous threat you know monitoring space and and this vulnerability space where I think we play a such an important role and I'm so excited to be a part of the tip of the spear on this one yeah I'm old enough to know the movie sneakers which I loved as a you know watching that movie you know professional hackers are testing testing always testing the environment I love this I got to ask you as we kind of wrap up here Chris if you don't mind the the benefits to Professional Services from this Alliance big news Splunk and you guys work well together we see that clearly what are what other benefits do Professional Services teams see from the Splunk and Horizon 3.ai Alliance so if you're I think for from our our from both of our uh Partners uh as we bring these guys together and many of them already are the same partner right uh is that uh first off the licensing model is probably one of the key areas that we really excel at so if you're an end user you can buy uh for the Enterprise by the number of IP addresses you're using um but uh if you're a partner working with this there's solution ways that you can go in and we'll license as to msps and what that business model on msps looks like but the unique thing that we do here is this C plus license and so the Consulting plus license allows like a uh somebody a small to mid-sized to some very large uh you know Fortune 100 uh consulting firms use this uh by buying into a license called um Consulting plus where they can have unlimited uh access to as many IPS as they want but you can only run one test at a time and as you can imagine when we're going and hacking passwords and um checking hashes and decrypting hashes that can take a while so but for the right customer it's it's a perfect tool and so I I'm so excited about our ability to go to market with uh our partners so that we understand ourselves understand how not to just sell to or not tell just to sell through but we know how to sell with them as a good vendor partner I think that that's one thing that we've done a really good job building bring it into the market yeah I think also the Splunk has had great success how they've enabled uh partners and Professional Services absolutely you know the services that layer on top of Splunk are multi-fold tons of great benefits so you guys Vector right into that ride that way with friction and and the cool thing is that in you know in one of our reports which could be totally customized uh with someone else's logo we're going to generate you know so I I used to work in another organization it wasn't Splunk but we we did uh you know pen testing as for for customers and my pen testers would come on site they'd do the engagement and they would leave and then another release someone would be oh shoot we got another sector that was breached and they'd call you back you know four weeks later and so by August our entire pen testings teams would be sold out and it would be like well even in March maybe and they're like no no I gotta breach now and and and then when they do go in they go through do the pen test and they hand over a PDF and they pack on the back and say there's where your problems are you need to fix it and the reality is that what we're going to generate completely autonomously with no human interaction is we're going to go and find all the permutations of anything we found and the fix for those permutations and then once you've fixed everything you just go back and run another pen test it's you know for what people pay for one pen test they can have a tool that does that every every Pat patch on Tuesday and that's on Wednesday you know triage throughout the week green yellow red I wanted to see the colors show me green green is good right not red and one CIO doesn't want who doesn't want that dashboard right it's it's exactly it and we can help bring I think that you know I'm really excited about helping drive this with the Splunk team because they get that they understand that it's the green yellow red dashboard and and how do we help them find more green uh so that the other guys are in red yeah and get in the data and do the right thing and be efficient with how you use the data know what to look at so many things to pay attention to you know the combination of both and then go to market strategy real brilliant congratulations Chris thanks for coming on and sharing um this news with the detail around the Splunk in action around the alliance thanks for sharing John my pleasure thanks look forward to seeing you soon all right great we'll follow up and do another segment on devops and I.T and security teams as the new new Ops but and super cloud a bunch of other stuff so thanks for coming on and our next segment the CEO of horizon 3.aa will break down all the new news for us here on thecube you're watching thecube the leader in high tech Enterprise coverage [Music] yeah the partner program for us has been fantastic you know I think prior to that you know as most organizations most uh uh most Farmers most mssps might not necessarily have a a bench at all for penetration testing uh maybe they subcontract this work out or maybe they do it themselves but trying to staff that kind of position can be incredibly difficult for us this was a differentiator a a new a new partner a new partnership that allowed us to uh not only perform services for our customers but be able to provide a product by which that they can do it themselves so we work with our customers in a variety of ways some of them want more routine testing and perform this themselves but we're also a certified service provider of horizon 3 being able to perform uh penetration tests uh help review the the data provide color provide analysis for our customers in a broader sense right not necessarily the the black and white elements of you know what was uh what's critical what's high what's medium what's low what you need to fix but are there systemic issues this has allowed us to onboard new customers this has allowed us to migrate some penetration testing services to us from from competitors in the marketplace But ultimately this is occurring because the the product and the outcome are special they're unique and they're effective our customers like what they're seeing they like the routineness of it many of them you know again like doing this themselves you know being able to kind of pen test themselves parts of their networks um and the the new use cases right I'm a large organization I have eight to ten Acquisitions per year wouldn't it be great to have a tool to be able to perform a penetration test both internal and external of that acquisition before we integrate the two companies and maybe bringing on some risk it's a very effective partnership uh one that really is uh kind of taken our our Engineers our account Executives by storm um you know this this is a a partnership that's been very valuable to us [Music] a key part of the value and business model at Horizon 3 is enabling Partners to leverage node zero to make more revenue for themselves our goal is that for sixty percent of our Revenue this year will be originated by partners and that 95 of our Revenue next year will be originated by partners and so a key to that strategy is making us an integral part of your business models as a partner a key quote from one of our partners is that we enable every one of their business units to generate Revenue so let's talk about that in a little bit more detail first is that if you have a pen test Consulting business take Deloitte as an example what was six weeks of human labor at Deloitte per pen test has been cut down to four days of Labor using node zero to conduct reconnaissance find all the juicy interesting areas of the of the Enterprise that are exploitable and being able to go assess the entire organization and then all of those details get served up to the human to be able to look at understand and determine where to probe deeper so what you see in that pen test Consulting business is that node zero becomes a force multiplier where those Consulting teams were able to cover way more accounts and way more IPS within those accounts with the same or fewer consultants and so that directly leads to profit margin expansion for the Penn testing business itself because node 0 is a force multiplier the second business model here is if you're an mssp as an mssp you're already making money providing defensive cyber security operations for a large volume of customers and so what they do is they'll license node zero and use us as an upsell to their mssb business to start to deliver either continuous red teaming continuous verification or purple teaming as a service and so in that particular business model they've got an additional line of Revenue where they can increase the spend of their existing customers by bolting on node 0 as a purple team as a service offering the third business model or customer type is if you're an I.T services provider so as an I.T services provider you make money installing and configuring security products like Splunk or crowdstrike or hemio you also make money reselling those products and you also make money generating follow-on services to continue to harden your customer environments and so for them what what those it service providers will do is use us to verify that they've installed Splunk correctly improved to their customer that Splunk was installed correctly or crowdstrike was installed correctly using our results and then use our results to drive follow-on services and revenue and then finally we've got the value-added reseller which is just a straight up reseller because of how fast our sales Cycles are these vars are able to typically go from cold email to deal close in six to eight weeks at Horizon 3 at least a single sales engineer is able to run 30 to 50 pocs concurrently because our pocs are very lightweight and don't require any on-prem customization or heavy pre-sales post sales activity so as a result we're able to have a few amount of sellers driving a lot of Revenue and volume for us well the same thing applies to bars there isn't a lot of effort to sell the product or prove its value so vars are able to sell a lot more Horizon 3 node zero product without having to build up a huge specialist sales organization so what I'm going to do is talk through uh scenario three here as an I.T service provider and just how powerful node zero can be in driving additional Revenue so in here think of for every one dollar of node zero license purchased by the IT service provider to do their business it'll generate ten dollars of additional revenue for that partner so in this example kidney group uses node 0 to verify that they have installed and deployed Splunk correctly so Kitty group is a Splunk partner they they sell it services to install configure deploy and maintain Splunk and as they deploy Splunk they're going to use node 0 to attack the environment and make sure that the right logs and alerts and monitoring are being handled within the Splunk deployment so it's a way of doing QA or verifying that Splunk has been configured correctly and that's going to be internally used by kidney group to prove the quality of their services that they've just delivered then what they're going to do is they're going to show and leave behind that node zero Report with their client and that creates a resell opportunity for for kidney group to resell node 0 to their client because their client is seeing the reports and the results and saying wow this is pretty amazing and those reports can be co-branded where it's a pen testing report branded with kidney group but it says powered by Horizon three under it from there kidney group is able to take the fixed actions report that's automatically generated with every pen test through node zero and they're able to use that as the starting point for a statement of work to sell follow-on services to fix all of the problems that node zero identified fixing l11r misconfigurations fixing or patching VMware or updating credentials policies and so on so what happens is node 0 has found a bunch of problems the client often lacks the capacity to fix and so kidney group can use that lack of capacity by the client as a follow-on sales opportunity for follow-on services and finally based on the findings from node zero kidney group can look at that report and say to the customer you know customer if you bought crowdstrike you'd be able to uh prevent node Zero from attacking and succeeding in the way that it did for if you bought humano or if you bought Palo Alto networks or if you bought uh some privileged access management solution because of what node 0 was able to do with credential harvesting and attacks and so as a result kidney group is able to resell other security products within their portfolio crowdstrike Falcon humano Polito networks demisto Phantom and so on based on the gaps that were identified by node zero and that pen test and what that creates is another feedback loop where kidney group will then go use node 0 to verify that crowdstrike product has actually been installed and configured correctly and then this becomes the cycle of using node 0 to verify a deployment using that verification to drive a bunch of follow-on services and resell opportunities which then further drives more usage of the product now the way that we licensed is that it's a usage-based license licensing model so that the partner will grow their node zero Consulting plus license as they grow their business so for example if you're a kidney group then week one you've got you're going to use node zero to verify your Splunk install in week two if you have a pen testing business you're going to go off and use node zero to be a force multiplier for your pen testing uh client opportunity and then if you have an mssp business then in week three you're going to use node zero to go execute a purple team mssp offering for your clients so not necessarily a kidney group but if you're a Deloitte or ATT these larger companies and you've got multiple lines of business if you're Optive for instance you all you have to do is buy one Consulting plus license and you're going to be able to run as many pen tests as you want sequentially so now you can buy a single license and use that one license to meet your week one client commitments and then meet your week two and then meet your week three and as you grow your business you start to run multiple pen tests concurrently so in week one you've got to do a Splunk verify uh verify Splunk install and you've got to run a pen test and you've got to do a purple team opportunity you just simply expand the number of Consulting plus licenses from one license to three licenses and so now as you systematically grow your business you're able to grow your node zero capacity with you giving you predictable cogs predictable margins and once again 10x additional Revenue opportunity for that investment in the node zero Consulting plus license my name is Saint I'm the co-founder and CEO here at Horizon 3. I'm going to talk to you today about why it's important to look at your Enterprise Through The Eyes of an attacker the challenge I had when I was a CIO in banking the CTO at Splunk and serving within the Department of Defense is that I had no idea I was Secure until the bad guys had showed up am I logging the right data am I fixing the right vulnerabilities are my security tools that I've paid millions of dollars for actually working together to defend me and the answer is I don't know does my team actually know how to respond to a breach in the middle of an incident I don't know I've got to wait for the bad guys to show up and so the challenge I had was how do we proactively verify our security posture I tried a variety of techniques the first was the use of vulnerability scanners and the challenge with vulnerability scanners is being vulnerable doesn't mean you're exploitable I might have a hundred thousand findings from my scanner of which maybe five or ten can actually be exploited in my environment the other big problem with scanners is that they can't chain weaknesses together from machine to machine so if you've got a thousand machines in your environment or more what a vulnerability scanner will do is tell you you have a problem on machine one and separately a problem on machine two but what they can tell you is that an attacker could use a load from machine one plus a low from machine two to equal to critical in your environment and what attackers do in their tactics is they chain together misconfigurations dangerous product defaults harvested credentials and exploitable vulnerabilities into attack paths across different machines so to address the attack pads across different machines I tried layering in consulting-based pen testing and the issue is when you've got thousands of hosts or hundreds of thousands of hosts in your environment human-based pen testing simply doesn't scale to test an infrastructure of that size moreover when they actually do execute a pen test and you get the report oftentimes you lack the expertise within your team to quickly retest to verify that you've actually fixed the problem and so what happens is you end up with these pen test reports that are incomplete snapshots and quickly going stale and then to mitigate that problem I tried using breach and attack simulation tools and the struggle with these tools is one I had to install credentialed agents everywhere two I had to write my own custom attack scripts that I didn't have much talent for but also I had to maintain as my environment changed and then three these types of tools were not safe to run against production systems which was the the majority of my attack surface so that's why we went off to start Horizon 3. so Tony and I met when we were in Special Operations together and the challenge we wanted to solve was how do we do infrastructure security testing at scale by giving the the power of a 20-year pen testing veteran into the hands of an I.T admin a network engineer in just three clicks and the whole idea is we enable these fixers The Blue Team to be able to run node Zero Hour pen testing product to quickly find problems in their environment that blue team will then then go off and fix the issues that were found and then they can quickly rerun the attack to verify that they fixed the problem and the whole idea is delivering this without requiring custom scripts be developed without requiring credential agents be installed and without requiring the use of external third-party consulting services or Professional Services self-service pen testing to quickly Drive find fix verify there are three primary use cases that our customers use us for the first is the sock manager that uses us to verify that their security tools are actually effective to verify that they're logging the right data in Splunk or in their Sim to verify that their managed security services provider is able to quickly detect and respond to an attack and hold them accountable for their slas or that the sock understands how to quickly detect and respond and measuring and verifying that or that the variety of tools that you have in your stack most organizations have 130 plus cyber security tools none of which are designed to work together are actually working together the second primary use case is proactively hardening and verifying your systems this is when the I that it admin that network engineer they're able to run self-service pen tests to verify that their Cisco environment is installed in hardened and configured correctly or that their credential policies are set up right or that their vcenter or web sphere or kubernetes environments are actually designed to be secure and what this allows the it admins and network Engineers to do is shift from running one or two pen tests a year to 30 40 or more pen tests a month and you can actually wire those pen tests into your devops process or into your detection engineering and the change management processes to automatically trigger pen tests every time there's a change in your environment the third primary use case is for those organizations lucky enough to have their own internal red team they'll use node zero to do reconnaissance and exploitation at scale and then use the output as a starting point for the humans to step in and focus on the really hard juicy stuff that gets them on stage at Defcon and so these are the three primary use cases and what we'll do is zoom into the find fix verify Loop because what I've found in my experience is find fix verify is the future operating model for cyber security organizations and what I mean here is in the find using continuous pen testing what you want to enable is on-demand self-service pen tests you want those pen tests to find attack pads at scale spanning your on-prem infrastructure your Cloud infrastructure and your perimeter because attackers don't only state in one place they will find ways to chain together a perimeter breach a credential from your on-prem to gain access to your cloud or some other permutation and then the third part in continuous pen testing is attackers don't focus on critical vulnerabilities anymore they know we've built vulnerability Management Programs to reduce those vulnerabilities so attackers have adapted and what they do is chain together misconfigurations in your infrastructure and software and applications with dangerous product defaults with exploitable vulnerabilities and through the collection of credentials through a mix of techniques at scale once you've found those problems the next question is what do you do about it well you want to be able to prioritize fixing problems that are actually exploitable in your environment that truly matter meaning they're going to lead to domain compromise or domain user compromise or access your sensitive data the second thing you want to fix is making sure you understand what risk your crown jewels data is exposed to where is your crown jewels data is in the cloud is it on-prem has it been copied to a share drive that you weren't aware of if a domain user was compromised could they access that crown jewels data you want to be able to use the attacker's perspective to secure the critical data you have in your infrastructure and then finally as you fix these problems you want to quickly remediate and retest that you've actually fixed the issue and this fine fix verify cycle becomes that accelerator that drives purple team culture the third part here is verify and what you want to be able to do in the verify step is verify that your security tools and processes in people can effectively detect and respond to a breach you want to be able to integrate that into your detection engineering processes so that you know you're catching the right security rules or that you've deployed the right configurations you also want to make sure that your environment is adhering to the best practices around systems hardening in cyber resilience and finally you want to be able to prove your security posture over a time to your board to your leadership into your regulators so what I'll do now is zoom into each of these three steps so when we zoom in to find here's the first example using node 0 and autonomous pen testing and what an attacker will do is find a way to break through the perimeter in this example it's very easy to misconfigure kubernetes to allow an attacker to gain remote code execution into your on-prem kubernetes environment and break through the perimeter and from there what the attacker is going to do is conduct Network reconnaissance and then find ways to gain code execution on other machines in the environment and as they get code execution they start to dump credentials collect a bunch of ntlm hashes crack those hashes using open source and dark web available data as part of those attacks and then reuse those credentials to log in and laterally maneuver throughout the environment and then as they loudly maneuver they can reuse those credentials and use credential spraying techniques and so on to compromise your business email to log in as admin into your cloud and this is a very common attack and rarely is a CV actually needed to execute this attack often it's just a misconfiguration in kubernetes with a bad credential policy or password policy combined with bad practices of credential reuse across the organization here's another example of an internal pen test and this is from an actual customer they had 5 000 hosts within their environment they had EDR and uba tools installed and they initiated in an internal pen test on a single machine from that single initial access point node zero enumerated the network conducted reconnaissance and found five thousand hosts were accessible what node 0 will do under the covers is organize all of that reconnaissance data into a knowledge graph that we call the Cyber terrain map and that cyber Terrain map becomes the key data structure that we use to efficiently maneuver and attack and compromise your environment so what node zero will do is they'll try to find ways to get code execution reuse credentials and so on in this customer example they had Fortinet installed as their EDR but node 0 was still able to get code execution on a Windows machine from there it was able to successfully dump credentials including sensitive credentials from the lsas process on the Windows box and then reuse those credentials to log in as domain admin in the network and once an attacker becomes domain admin they have the keys to the kingdom they can do anything they want so what happened here well it turns out Fortinet was misconfigured on three out of 5000 machines bad automation the customer had no idea this had happened they would have had to wait for an attacker to show up to realize that it was misconfigured the second thing is well why didn't Fortinet stop the credential pivot in the lateral movement and it turned out the customer didn't buy the right modules or turn on the right services within that particular product and we see this not only with Ford in it but we see this with Trend Micro and all the other defensive tools where it's very easy to miss a checkbox in the configuration that will do things like prevent credential dumping the next story I'll tell you is attackers don't have to hack in they log in so another infrastructure pen test a typical technique attackers will take is man in the middle uh attacks that will collect hashes so in this case what an attacker will do is leverage a tool or technique called responder to collect ntlm hashes that are being passed around the network and there's a variety of reasons why these hashes are passed around and it's a pretty common misconfiguration but as an attacker collects those hashes then they start to apply techniques to crack those hashes so they'll pass the hash and from there they will use open source intelligence common password structures and patterns and other types of techniques to try to crack those hashes into clear text passwords so here node 0 automatically collected hashes it automatically passed the hashes to crack those credentials and then from there it starts to take the domain user user ID passwords that it's collected and tries to access different services and systems in your Enterprise in this case node 0 is able to successfully gain access to the Office 365 email environment because three employees didn't have MFA configured so now what happens is node 0 has a placement and access in the business email system which sets up the conditions for fraud lateral phishing and other techniques but what's especially insightful here is that 80 of the hashes that were collected in this pen test were cracked in 15 minutes or less 80 percent 26 of the user accounts had a password that followed a pretty obvious pattern first initial last initial and four random digits the other thing that was interesting is 10 percent of service accounts had their user ID the same as their password so VMware admin VMware admin web sphere admin web Square admin so on and so forth and so attackers don't have to hack in they just log in with credentials that they've collected the next story here is becoming WS AWS admin so in this example once again internal pen test node zero gets initial access it discovers 2 000 hosts are network reachable from that environment if fingerprints and organizes all of that data into a cyber Terrain map from there it it fingerprints that hpilo the integrated lights out service was running on a subset of hosts hpilo is a service that is often not instrumented or observed by security teams nor is it easy to patch as a result attackers know this and immediately go after those types of services so in this case that ILO service was exploitable and were able to get code execution on it ILO stores all the user IDs and passwords in clear text in a particular set of processes so once we gain code execution we were able to dump all of the credentials and then from there laterally maneuver to log in to the windows box next door as admin and then on that admin box we're able to gain access to the share drives and we found a credentials file saved on a share Drive from there it turned out that credentials file was the AWS admin credentials file giving us full admin authority to their AWS accounts not a single security alert was triggered in this attack because the customer wasn't observing the ILO service and every step thereafter was a valid login in the environment and so what do you do step one patch the server step two delete the credentials file from the share drive and then step three is get better instrumentation on privileged access users and login the final story I'll tell is a typical pattern that we see across the board with that combines the various techniques I've described together where an attacker is going to go off and use open source intelligence to find all of the employees that work at your company from there they're going to look up those employees on dark web breach databases and other forms of information and then use that as a starting point to password spray to compromise a domain user all it takes is one employee to reuse a breached password for their Corporate email or all it takes is a single employee to have a weak password that's easily guessable all it takes is one and once the attacker is able to gain domain user access in most shops domain user is also the local admin on their laptop and once your local admin you can dump Sam and get local admin until M hashes you can use that to reuse credentials again local admin on neighboring machines and attackers will start to rinse and repeat then eventually they're able to get to a point where they can dump lsas or by unhooking the anti-virus defeating the EDR or finding a misconfigured EDR as we've talked about earlier to compromise the domain and what's consistent is that the fundamentals are broken at these shops they have poor password policies they don't have least access privilege implemented active directory groups are too permissive where domain admin or domain user is also the local admin uh AV or EDR Solutions are misconfigured or easily unhooked and so on and what we found in 10 000 pen tests is that user Behavior analytics tools never caught us in that lateral movement in part because those tools require pristine logging data in order to work and also it becomes very difficult to find that Baseline of normal usage versus abnormal usage of credential login another interesting Insight is there were several Marquee brand name mssps that were defending our customers environment and for them it took seven hours to detect and respond to the pen test seven hours the pen test was over in less than two hours and so what you had was an egregious violation of the service level agreements that that mssp had in place and the customer was able to use us to get service credit and drive accountability of their sock and of their provider the third interesting thing is in one case it took us seven minutes to become domain admin in a bank that bank had every Gucci security tool you could buy yet in 7 minutes and 19 seconds node zero started as an unauthenticated member of the network and was able to escalate privileges through chaining and misconfigurations in lateral movement and so on to become domain admin if it's seven minutes today we should assume it'll be less than a minute a year or two from now making it very difficult for humans to be able to detect and respond to that type of Blitzkrieg attack so that's in the find it's not just about finding problems though the bulk of the effort should be what to do about it the fix and the verify so as you find those problems back to kubernetes as an example we will show you the path here is the kill chain we took to compromise that environment we'll show you the impact here is the impact or here's the the proof of exploitation that we were able to use to be able to compromise it and there's the actual command that we executed so you could copy and paste that command and compromise that cubelet yourself if you want and then the impact is we got code execution and we'll actually show you here is the impact this is a critical here's why it enabled perimeter breach affected applications will tell you the specific IPS where you've got the problem how it maps to the miter attack framework and then we'll tell you exactly how to fix it we'll also show you what this problem enabled so you can accurately prioritize why this is important or why it's not important the next part is accurate prioritization the hardest part of my job as a CIO was deciding what not to fix so if you take SMB signing not required as an example by default that CVSs score is a one out of 10. but this misconfiguration is not a cve it's a misconfig enable an attacker to gain access to 19 credentials including one domain admin two local admins and access to a ton of data because of that context this is really a 10 out of 10. you better fix this as soon as possible however of the seven occurrences that we found it's only a critical in three out of the seven and these are the three specific machines and we'll tell you the exact way to fix it and you better fix these as soon as possible for these four machines over here these didn't allow us to do anything of consequence so that because the hardest part is deciding what not to fix you can justifiably choose not to fix these four issues right now and just add them to your backlog and surge your team to fix these three as quickly as possible and then once you fix these three you don't have to re-run the entire pen test you can select these three and then one click verify and run a very narrowly scoped pen test that is only testing this specific issue and what that creates is a much faster cycle of finding and fixing problems the other part of fixing is verifying that you don't have sensitive data at risk so once we become a domain user we're able to use those domain user credentials and try to gain access to databases file shares S3 buckets git repos and so on and help you understand what sensitive data you have at risk so in this example a green checkbox means we logged in as a valid domain user we're able to get read write access on the database this is how many records we could have accessed and we don't actually look at the values in the database but we'll show you the schema so you can quickly characterize that pii data was at risk here and we'll do that for your file shares and other sources of data so now you can accurately articulate the data you have at risk and prioritize cleaning that data up especially data that will lead to a fine or a big news issue so that's the find that's the fix now we're going to talk about the verify the key part in verify is embracing and integrating with detection engineering practices so when you think about your layers of security tools you've got lots of tools in place on average 130 tools at any given customer but these tools were not designed to work together so when you run a pen test what you want to do is say did you detect us did you log us did you alert on us did you stop us and from there what you want to see is okay what are the techniques that are commonly used to defeat an environment to actually compromise if you look at the top 10 techniques we use and there's far more than just these 10 but these are the most often executed nine out of ten have nothing to do with cves it has to do with misconfigurations dangerous product defaults bad credential policies and it's how we chain those together to become a domain admin or compromise a host so what what customers will do is every single attacker command we executed is provided to you as an attackivity log so you can actually see every single attacker command we ran the time stamp it was executed the hosts it executed on and how it Maps the minor attack tactics so our customers will have are these attacker logs on one screen and then they'll go look into Splunk or exabeam or Sentinel one or crowdstrike and say did you detect us did you log us did you alert on us or not and to make that even easier if you take this example hey Splunk what logs did you see at this time on the VMware host because that's when node 0 is able to dump credentials and that allows you to identify and fix your logging blind spots to make that easier we've got app integration so this is an actual Splunk app in the Splunk App Store and what you can come is inside the Splunk console itself you can fire up the Horizon 3 node 0 app all of the pen test results are here so that you can see all of the results in one place and you don't have to jump out of the tool and what you'll show you as I skip forward is hey there's a pen test here are the critical issues that we've identified for that weaker default issue here are the exact commands we executed and then we will automatically query into Splunk all all terms on between these times on that endpoint that relate to this attack so you can now quickly within the Splunk environment itself figure out that you're missing logs or that you're appropriately catching this issue and that becomes incredibly important in that detection engineering cycle that I mentioned earlier so how do our customers end up using us they shift from running one pen test a year to 30 40 pen tests a month oftentimes wiring us into their deployment automation to automatically run pen tests the other part that they'll do is as they run more pen tests they find more issues but eventually they hit this inflection point where they're able to rapidly clean up their environment and that inflection point is because the red and the blue teams start working together in a purple team culture and now they're working together to proactively harden their environment the other thing our customers will do is run us from different perspectives they'll first start running an RFC 1918 scope to see once the attacker gained initial access in a part of the network that had wide access what could they do and then from there they'll run us within a specific Network segment okay from within that segment could the attacker break out and gain access to another segment then they'll run us from their work from home environment could they Traverse the VPN and do something damaging and once they're in could they Traverse the VPN and get into my cloud then they'll break in from the outside all of these perspectives are available to you in Horizon 3 and node zero as a single SKU and you can run as many pen tests as you want if you run a phishing campaign and find that an intern in the finance department had the worst phishing behavior you can then inject their credentials and actually show the end-to-end story of how an attacker fished gained credentials of an intern and use that to gain access to sensitive financial data so what our customers end up doing is running multiple attacks from multiple perspectives and looking at those results over time I'll leave you two things one is what is the AI in Horizon 3 AI those knowledge graphs are the heart and soul of everything that we do and we use machine learning reinforcement techniques reinforcement learning techniques Markov decision models and so on to be able to efficiently maneuver and analyze the paths in those really large graphs we also use context-based scoring to prioritize weaknesses and we're also able to drive collective intelligence across all of the operations so the more pen tests we run the smarter we get and all of that is based on our knowledge graph analytics infrastructure that we have finally I'll leave you with this was my decision criteria when I was a buyer for my security testing strategy what I cared about was coverage I wanted to be able to assess my on-prem cloud perimeter and work from home and be safe to run in production I want to be able to do that as often as I wanted I want to be able to run pen tests in hours or days not weeks or months so I could accelerate that fine fix verify loop I wanted my it admins and network Engineers with limited offensive experience to be able to run a pen test in a few clicks through a self-service experience and not have to install agent and not have to write custom scripts and finally I didn't want to get nickeled and dimed on having to buy different types of attack modules or different types of attacks I wanted a single annual subscription that allowed me to run any type of attack as often as I wanted so I could look at my Trends in directions over time so I hope you found this talk valuable uh we're easy to find and I look forward to seeing seeing you use a product and letting our results do the talking when you look at uh you know kind of the way no our pen testing algorithms work is we dynamically select uh how to compromise an environment based on what we've discovered and the goal is to become a domain admin compromise a host compromise domain users find ways to encrypt data steal sensitive data and so on but when you look at the the top 10 techniques that we ended up uh using to compromise environments the first nine have nothing to do with cves and that's the reality cves are yes a vector but less than two percent of cves are actually used in a compromise oftentimes it's some sort of credential collection credential cracking uh credential pivoting and using that to become an admin and then uh compromising environments from that point on so I'll leave this up for you to kind of read through and you'll have the slides available for you but I found it very insightful that organizations and ourselves when I was a GE included invested heavily in just standard vulnerability Management Programs when I was at DOD that's all disa cared about asking us about was our our kind of our cve posture but the attackers have adapted to not rely on cves to get in because they know that organizations are actively looking at and patching those cves and instead they're chaining together credentials from one place with misconfigurations and dangerous product defaults in another to take over an environment a concrete example is by default vcenter backups are not encrypted and so as if an attacker finds vcenter what they'll do is find the backup location and there are specific V sender MTD files where the admin credentials are parsippled in the binaries so you can actually as an attacker find the right MTD file parse out the binary and now you've got the admin credentials for the vcenter environment and now start to log in as admin there's a bad habit by signal officers and Signal practitioners in the in the Army and elsewhere where the the VM notes section of a virtual image has the password for the VM well those VM notes are not stored encrypted and attackers know this and they're able to go off and find the VMS that are unencrypted find the note section and pull out the passwords for those images and then reuse those credentials across the board so I'll pause here and uh you know Patrick love you get some some commentary on on these techniques and other things that you've seen and what we'll do in the last say 10 to 15 minutes is uh is rolled through a little bit more on what do you do about it yeah yeah no I love it I think um I think this is pretty exhaustive what I like about what you've done here is uh you know we've seen we've seen double-digit increases in the number of organizations that are reporting actual breaches year over year for the last um for the last three years and it's often we kind of in the Zeitgeist we pegged that on ransomware which of course is like incredibly important and very top of mind um but what I like about what you have here is you know we're reminding the audience that the the attack surface area the vectors the matter um you know has to be more comprehensive than just thinking about ransomware scenarios yeah right on um so let's build on this when you think about your defense in depth you've got multiple security controls that you've purchased and integrated and you've got that redundancy if a control fails but the reality is that these security tools aren't designed to work together so when you run a pen test what you want to ask yourself is did you detect node zero did you log node zero did you alert on node zero and did you stop node zero and when you think about how to do that every single attacker command executed by node zero is available in an attacker log so you can now see you know at the bottom here vcenter um exploit at that time on that IP how it aligns to minor attack what you want to be able to do is go figure out did your security tools catch this or not and that becomes very important in using the attacker's perspective to improve your defensive security controls and so the way we've tried to make this easier back to like my my my the you know I bleed Green in many ways still from my smoke background is you want to be able to and what our customers do is hey we'll look at the attacker logs on one screen and they'll look at what did Splunk see or Miss in another screen and then they'll use that to figure out what their logging blind spots are and what that where that becomes really interesting is we've actually built out an integration into Splunk where there's a Splunk app you can download off of Splunk base and you'll get all of the pen test results right there in the Splunk console and from that Splunk console you're gonna be able to see these are all the pen tests that were run these are the issues that were found um so you can look at that particular pen test here are all of the weaknesses that were identified for that particular pen test and how they categorize out for each of those weaknesses you can click on any one of them that are critical in this case and then we'll tell you for that weakness and this is where where the the punch line comes in so I'll pause the video here for that weakness these are the commands that were executed on these endpoints at this time and then we'll actually query Splunk for that um for that IP address or containing that IP and these are the source types that surface any sort of activity so what we try to do is help you as quickly and efficiently as possible identify the logging blind spots in your Splunk environment based on the attacker's perspective so as this video kind of plays through you can see it Patrick I'd love to get your thoughts um just seeing so many Splunk deployments and the effectiveness of those deployments and and how this is going to help really Elevate the effectiveness of all of your Splunk customers yeah I'm super excited about this I mean I think this these kinds of purpose-built integration snail really move the needle for our customers I mean at the end of the day when I think about the power of Splunk I think about a product I was first introduced to 12 years ago that was an on-prem piece of software you know and at the time it sold on sort of Perpetual and term licenses but one made it special was that it could it could it could eat data at a speed that nothing else that I'd have ever seen you can ingest massively scalable amounts of data uh did cool things like schema on read which facilitated that there was this language called SPL that you could nerd out about uh and you went to a conference once a year and you talked about all the cool things you were splunking right but now as we think about the next phase of our growth um we live in a heterogeneous environment where our customers have so many different tools and data sources that are ever expanding and as you look at the as you look at the role of the ciso it's mind-blowing to me the amount of sources Services apps that are coming into the ciso span of let's just call it a span of influence in the last three years uh you know we're seeing things like infrastructure service level visibility application performance monitoring stuff that just never made sense for the security team to have visibility into you um at least not at the size and scale which we're demanding today um and and that's different and this isn't this is why it's so important that we have these joint purpose-built Integrations that um really provide more prescription to our customers about how do they walk on that Journey towards maturity what does zero to one look like what does one to two look like whereas you know 10 years ago customers were happy with platforms today they want integration they want Solutions and they want to drive outcomes and I think this is a great example of how together we are stepping to the evolving nature of the market and also the ever-evolving nature of the threat landscape and what I would say is the maturing needs of the customer in that environment yeah for sure I think especially if if we all anticipate budget pressure over the next 18 months due to the economy and elsewhere while the security budgets are not going to ever I don't think they're going to get cut they're not going to grow as fast and there's a lot more pressure on organizations to extract more value from their existing Investments as well as extracting more value and more impact from their existing teams and so security Effectiveness Fierce prioritization and automation I think become the three key themes of security uh over the next 18 months so I'll do very quickly is run through a few other use cases um every host that we identified in the pen test were able to score and say this host allowed us to do something significant therefore it's it's really critical you should be increasing your logging here hey these hosts down here we couldn't really do anything as an attacker so if you do have to make trade-offs you can make some trade-offs of your logging resolution at the lower end in order to increase logging resolution on the upper end so you've got that level of of um justification for where to increase or or adjust your logging resolution another example is every host we've discovered as an attacker we Expose and you can export and we want to make sure is every host we found as an attacker is being ingested from a Splunk standpoint a big issue I had as a CIO and user of Splunk and other tools is I had no idea if there were Rogue Raspberry Pi's on the network or if a new box was installed and whether Splunk was installed on it or not so now you can quickly start to correlate what hosts did we see and how does that reconcile with what you're logging from uh finally or second to last use case here on the Splunk integration side is for every single problem we've found we give multiple options for how to fix it this becomes a great way to prioritize what fixed actions to automate in your soar platform and what we want to get to eventually is being able to automatically trigger soar actions to fix well-known problems like automatically invalidating passwords for for poor poor passwords in our credentials amongst a whole bunch of other things we could go off and do and then finally if there is a well-known kill chain or attack path one of the things I really wish I could have done when I was a Splunk customer was take this type of kill chain that actually shows a path to domain admin that I'm sincerely worried about and use it as a glass table over which I could start to layer possible indicators of compromise and now you've got a great starting point for glass tables and iocs for actual kill chains that we know are exploitable in your environment and that becomes some super cool Integrations that we've got on the roadmap between us and the Splunk security side of the house so what I'll leave with actually Patrick before I do that you know um love to get your comments and then I'll I'll kind of leave with one last slide on this wartime security mindset uh pending you know assuming there's no other questions no I love it I mean I think this kind of um it's kind of glass table's approach to how do you how do you sort of visualize these workflows and then use things like sore and orchestration and automation to operationalize them is exactly where we see all of our customers going and getting away from I think an over engineered approach to soar with where it has to be super technical heavy with you know python programmers and getting more to this visual view of workflow creation um that really demystifies the power of Automation and also democratizes it so you don't have to have these programming languages in your resume in order to start really moving the needle on workflow creation policy enforcement and ultimately driving automation coverage across more and more of the workflows that your team is seeing yeah I think that between us being able to visualize the actual kill chain or attack path with you know think of a of uh the soar Market I think going towards this no code low code um you know configurable sore versus coded sore that's going to really be a game changer in improve or giving security teams a force multiplier so what I'll leave you with is this peacetime mindset of security no longer is sustainable we really have to get out of checking the box and then waiting for the bad guys to show up to verify that security tools are are working or not and the reason why we've got to really do that quickly is there are over a thousand companies that withdrew from the Russian economy over the past uh nine months due to the Ukrainian War there you should expect every one of them to be punished by the Russians for leaving and punished from a cyber standpoint and this is no longer about financial extortion that is ransomware this is about punishing and destroying companies and you can punish any one of these companies by going after them directly or by going after their suppliers and their Distributors so suddenly your attack surface is no more no longer just your own Enterprise it's how you bring your goods to Market and it's how you get your goods created because while I may not be able to disrupt your ability to harvest fruit if I can get those trucks stuck at the border I can increase spoilage and have the same effect and what we should expect to see is this idea of cyber-enabled economic Warfare where if we issue a sanction like Banning the Russians from traveling there is a cyber-enabled counter punch which is corrupt and destroy the American Airlines database that is below the threshold of War that's not going to trigger the 82nd Airborne to be mobilized but it's going to achieve the right effect ban the sale of luxury goods disrupt the supply chain and create shortages banned Russian oil and gas attack refineries to call a 10x spike in gas prices three days before the election this is the future and therefore I think what we have to do is shift towards a wartime mindset which is don't trust your security posture verify it see yourself Through The Eyes of the attacker build that incident response muscle memory and drive better collaboration between the red and the blue teams your suppliers and Distributors and your information uh sharing organization they have in place and what's really valuable for me as a Splunk customer was when a router crashes at that moment you don't know if it's due to an I.T Administration problem or an attacker and what you want to have are different people asking different questions of the same data and you want to have that integrated triage process of an I.T lens to that problem a security lens to that problem and then from there figuring out is is this an IT workflow to execute or a security incident to execute and you want to have all of that as an integrated team integrated process integrated technology stack and this is something that I very care I cared very deeply about as both a Splunk customer and a Splunk CTO that I see time and time again across the board so Patrick I'll leave you with the last word the final three minutes here and I don't see any open questions so please take us home oh man see how you think we spent hours and hours prepping for this together that that last uh uh 40 seconds of your talk track is probably one of the things I'm most passionate about in this industry right now uh and I think nist has done some really interesting work here around building cyber resilient organizations that have that has really I think helped help the industry see that um incidents can come from adverse conditions you know stress is uh uh performance taxations in the infrastructure service or app layer and they can come from malicious compromises uh Insider threats external threat actors and the more that we look at this from the perspective of of a broader cyber resilience Mission uh in a wartime mindset uh I I think we're going to be much better off and and will you talk about with operationally minded ice hacks information sharing intelligence sharing becomes so important in these wartime uh um situations and you know we know not all ice acts are created equal but we're also seeing a lot of um more ad hoc information sharing groups popping up so look I think I think you framed it really really well I love the concept of wartime mindset and um I I like the idea of applying a cyber resilience lens like if you have one more layer on top of that bottom right cake you know I think the it lens and the security lens they roll up to this concept of cyber resilience and I think this has done some great work there for us yeah you're you're spot on and that that is app and that's gonna I think be the the next um terrain that that uh that you're gonna see vendors try to get after but that I think Splunk is best position to win okay that's a wrap for this special Cube presentation you heard all about the global expansion of horizon 3.ai's partner program for their Partners have a unique opportunity to take advantage of their node zero product uh International go to Market expansion North America channel Partnerships and just overall relationships with companies like Splunk to make things more comprehensive in this disruptive cyber security world we live in and hope you enjoyed this program all the videos are available on thecube.net as well as check out Horizon 3 dot AI for their pen test Automation and ultimately their defense system that they use for testing always the environment that you're in great Innovative product and I hope you enjoyed the program again I'm John Furrier host of the cube thanks for watching

>>Welcome back everyone to the Cube and Horizon three.ai special presentation. I'm John Furrier, host of the Cube. We with Chris Hill, Sector head for strategic accounts and federal@horizonthree.ai. Great innovative company. Chris, great to see you. Thanks for coming on the Cube. >>Yeah, like I said, you know, great to meet you John. Long time listener. First time call. So excited to be here with >>You guys. Yeah, we were talking before camera. You had Splunk back in 2013 and I think 2012 was our first splunk.com. Yep. And boy man, you know, talk about being in the right place at the right time. Now we're at another inflection point and Splunk continues to be relevant and continuing to have that data driving security and that interplay. And your ceo, former CTO of Splunk as well at Horizons Neha, who's been on before. Really innovative product you guys have, but you know, Yeah, don't wait for a brief to find out if you're locking the right data. This is the topic of this thread. Splunk is very much part of this new international expansion announcement with you guys. Tell us what are some of the challenges that you see where this is relevant for the Splunk and the Horizon AI as you guys expand Node zero out internationally? >>Yeah, well so across, so you know, my role within Splunk was working with our most strategic accounts. And so I look back to 2013 and I think about the sales process like working with, with our small customers. You know, it was, it was still very siloed back then. Like I was selling to an IT team that was either using us for IT operations. We generally would always even say, yeah, although we do security, we weren't really designed for it. We're a log management tool. And you know, we, and I'm sure you remember back then John, we were like sort of stepping into the security space and in the public sector domain that I was in, you know, security was 70% of what we did. When I look back to sort of the transformation that I was, was witnessing in that digital transformation, you know when I, you look at like 2019 to today, you look at how the IT team and the security teams are, have been forced to break down those barriers that they used to sort of be silo away, would not communicate one, you know, the security guys would be like, Oh this is my BA box it, you're not allowed in today. >>You can't get away with that. And I think that the value that we bring to, you know, and of course Splunk has been a huge leader in that space and continues to do innovation across the board. But I think what we've we're seeing in the space that I was talking with Patrick Kauflin, the SVP of security markets about this, is that, you know, what we've been able to do with Splunk is build a purpose built solution that allows Splunk to eat more data. So Splunk itself, as you well know, it's an ingest engine, right? So the great reason people bought it was you could build these really fast dashboards and grab intelligence out of it, but without data it doesn't do anything, right? So how do you drive and how do you bring more data in? And most importantly from a customer perspective, how do you bring the right data in? >>And so if you think about what node zero and what we're doing in a Horizon three is that, sure we do pen testing, but because we're an autonomous pen testing tool, we do it continuously. So this whole thought of being like, Oh, crud like my customers, Oh yeah, we got a pen test coming up, it's gonna be six weeks. The wait. Oh yeah. You know, and everyone's gonna sit on their hands, Call me back in two months, Chris, we'll talk to you then. Right? Not, not a real efficient way to test your environment and shoot, we, we saw that with Uber this week. Right? You know, and that's a case where we could have helped. >>Well just real quick, explain the Uber thing cause it was a contractor. Just give a quick highlight of what happened so you can connect the >>Dots. Yeah, no problem. So there it was, I think it was one of those, you know, games where they would try and test an environment. And what the pen tester did was he kept on calling them MFA guys being like, I need to reset my password re to set my password. And eventually the customer service guy said, Okay, I'm resetting it. Once he had reset and bypassed the multifactor authentication, he then was able to get in and get access to the domain area that he was in or the, not the domain, but he was able to gain access to a partial part of the network. He then paralleled over to what would I assume is like a VA VMware or some virtual machine that had notes that had all of the credentials for logging into various domains. And so within minutes they had access. And that's the sort of stuff that we do under, you know, a lot of these tools. >>Like not, and I'm not, you know, you think about the cacophony of tools that are out there in a CTA orchestra architecture, right? I'm gonna get like a Zscaler, I'm gonna have Okta, I'm gonna have a Splunk, I'm gonna do this sore system. I mean, I don't mean to name names, we're gonna have crowd strike or, or Sentinel one in there. It's just, it's a cacophony of things that don't work together. They weren't designed work together. And so we have seen so many times in our business through our customer support and just working with customers when we do their pen test, that there will be 5,000 servers out there. Three are misconfigured. Those three misconfigurations will create the open door. Cause remember the hacker only needs to be right once, the defender needs to be right all the time. And that's the challenge. And so that's why I'm really passionate about what we're doing here at Horizon three. I see this my digital transformation, migration and security going on, which we're at the tip of the sp, it's why I joined say Hall coming on this journey and just super excited about where the path's going and super excited about the relationship with Splunk. I get into more details on some of the specifics of that. But you know, >>I mean, well you're nailing, I mean we've been doing a lot of things around super cloud and this next gen environment, we're calling it NextGen. You're really seeing DevOps, obviously Dev SecOps has, has already won the IT role has moved to the developer shift left as an indicator of that. It's one of the many examples, higher velocity code software supply chain. You hear these things. That means that it is now in the developer hands, it is replaced by the new ops, data ops teams and security where there's a lot of horizontal thinking. To your point about access, there's no more perimeter. So >>That there is no perimeter. >>Huge. A hundred percent right, is really right on. I don't think it's one time, you know, to get in there. Once you're in, then you can hang out, move around, move laterally. Big problem. Okay, so we get that. Now, the challenges for these teams as they are transitioning organizationally, how do they figure out what to do? Okay, this is the next step. They already have Splunk, so now they're kind of in transition while protecting for a hundred percent ratio of success. So how would you look at that and describe the challenges? What do they do? What is, what are the teams facing with their data and what's next? What do they, what do they, what action do they take? >>So let's do some vernacular that folks will know. So if I think about dev sec ops, right? We both know what that means, that I'm gonna build security into the app, but no one really talks about SEC DevOps, right? How am I building security around the perimeter of what's going inside my ecosystem and what are they doing? And so if you think about what we're able to do with somebody like Splunk is we could pen test the entire environment from soup to nuts, right? So I'm gonna test the end points through to it. So I'm gonna look for misconfigurations, I'm gonna, and I'm gonna look for credential exposed credentials. You know, I'm gonna look for anything I can in the environment. Again, I'm gonna do it at at light speed. And, and what we're, what we're doing for that SEC dev space is to, you know, did you detect that we were in your environment? >>So did we alert Splunk or the SIM that there's someone in the environment laterally moving around? Did they, more importantly, did they log us into their environment? And when did they detect that log to trigger that log? Did they alert on us? And then finally, most importantly, for every CSO out there is gonna be did they stop us? And so that's how we, we, we do this in, I think you, when speaking with Stay Hall, before, you know, we've come up with this boils U Loop, but we call it fine fix verify. So what we do is we go in is we act as the attacker, right? We act in a production environment. So we're not gonna be, we're a passive attacker, but we will go in un credentialed UN agents. But we have to assume, have an assumed breach model, which means we're gonna put a Docker container in your environment and then we're going to fingerprint the environment. >>So we're gonna go out and do an asset survey. Now that's something that's not something that Splunk does super well, you know, so can Splunk see all the assets, do the same assets marry up? We're gonna log all that data and think then put load that into the Splunk sim or the smoke logging tools just to have it in enterprise, right? That's an immediate future ad that they've got. And then we've got the fix. So once we've completed our pen test, we are then gonna generate a report and we could talk about about these in a little bit later. But the reports will show an executive summary the assets that we found, which would be your asset discovery aspect of that, a fixed report. And the fixed report I think is probably the most important one. It will go down and identify what we did, how we did it, and then how to fix that. >>And then from that, the pen tester or the organization should fix those. Then they go back and run another test. And then they validate through like a change detection environment to see, hey, did those fixes taste, play take place? And you know, SNA Hall, when he was the CTO of JS o, he shared with me a number of times about, he's like, Man, there would be 15 more items on next week's punch sheet that we didn't know about. And it's, and it has to do with how we, you know, how they were prioritizing the CVEs and whatnot because they would take all CVS was critical or non-critical. And it's like we are able to create context in that environment that feeds better information into Splunk and whatnot. That >>Was a lot. That brings, that brings up the, the efficiency for Splunk specifically. The teams out there. By the way, the burnout thing is real. I mean, this whole, I just finished my list and I got 15 more or whatever the list just can, keeps, keeps growing. How did Node zero specifically help Splunk teams be more efficient? Now that's the question I want to get at, because this seems like a very scalable way for Splunk customers and teams, service teams to be more efficient. So the question is, how does Node zero help make Splunk specifically their service teams be more efficient? >>So to, so today in our early interactions with building Splunk customers, what we've seen are five things, and I'll start with sort of identifying the blind spots, right? So kind of what I just talked about with you. Did we detect, did we log, did we alert? Did they stop node zero, right? And so I would, I put that at, you know, a a a more layman's third grade term. And if I was gonna beat a fifth grader at this game would be, we can be the sparring partner for a Splunk enterprise customer, a Splunk essentials customer, someone using Splunk soar, or even just an enterprise Splunk customer that may be a small shop with three people and, and just wants to know where am I exposed. So by creating and generating these reports and then having the API that actually generates the dashboard, they can take all of these events that we've logged and log them in. >>And then where that then comes in is number two is how do we prioritize those logs, right? So how do we create visibility to logs that are, have critical impacts? And again, as I mentioned earlier, not all CVEs are high impact regard and also not all are low, right? So if you daisy chain a bunch of low CVEs together, boom, I've got a mission critical AP CVE that needs to be fixed now, such as a credential moving to an NT box that's got a text file with a bunch of passwords on it, that would be very bad. And then third would be verifying that you have all of the hosts. So one of the things that Splunk's not particularly great at, and they, they themselves, they don't do asset discovery. So do what assets do we see and what are they logging from that? And then for, from, for every event that they are able to identify the, one of the cool things that we can do is actually create this low-code, no-code environment. >>So they could let, you know, float customers can use Splunk. So to actually triage events and prioritize that events or where they're being routed within it to optimize the SOX team time to market or time to triage any given event. Obviously reducing mtr. And then finally, I think one of the neatest things that we'll be seeing us develop is our ability to build glass tables. So behind me you'll see one of our triage events and how we build a lock Lockheed Martin kill chain on that with a glass table, which is very familiar to this Splunk community. We're going to have the ability, not too distant future to allow people to search, observe on those IOCs. And if people aren't familiar with an ioc, it's an incident of compromise. So that's a vector that we want to drill into. And of course who's better at drilling in into data and Splunk. >>Yeah, this is a critical, this is awesome synergy there. I mean I can see a Splunk customer going, Man, this just gives me so much more capability. Action actionability. And also real understanding, and I think this is what I wanna dig into, if you don't mind understanding that critical impact, okay. Is kind of where I see this coming. I got the data, data ingest now data's data. But the question is what not to log, You know, where are things misconfigured? These are critical questions. So can you talk about what it means to understand critical impact? >>Yeah, so I think, you know, going back to those things that I just spoke about, a lot of those CVEs where you'll see low, low, low and then you daisy chain together and you're suddenly like, oh, this is high now. But then to your other impact of like if you're a, if you're a a Splunk customer, you know, and I had, I had several of them, I had one customer that, you know, terabytes of McAfee data being brought in and it was like, all right, there's a lot of other data that you probably also wanna bring, but they could only afford, wanted to do certain data sets because that's, and they didn't know how to prioritize or filter those data sets. And so we provide that opportunity to say, Hey, these are the critical ones to bring in. But there's also the ones that you don't necessarily need to bring in because low CVE in this case really does mean low cve. >>Like an ILO server would be one that, that's the print server where the, your admin credentials are on, on like a, a printer. And so there will be credentials on that. That's something that a hacker might go in to look at. So although the CVE on it is low, if you daisy chain was something that's able to get into that, you might say, ah, that's high. And we would then potentially rank it giving our AI logic to say that's a moderate. So put it on the scale and we prioritize though, versus a, a vulner review scanner's just gonna give you a bunch of CVEs and good luck. >>And translating that if I, if I can and tell me if I'm wrong, that kind of speaks to that whole lateral movement. That's it. Challenge, right? Print server, great example, look stupid low end, who's gonna wanna deal with the print server? Oh, but it's connected into a critical system. There's a path. Is that kind of what you're getting at? >>Yeah, I used daisy chain. I think that's from the community they came from. But it's, it's just a lateral movement. It's exactly what they're doing. And those low level, low critical lateral movements is where the hackers are getting in. Right? So that's what the beauty thing about the, the Uber example is that who would've thought, you know, I've got my multifactor authentication going in a human made a mistake. We can't, we can't not expect humans to make mistakes. Were fall, were fallible, right? Yeah. The reality is is once they were in the environment, they could have protected themselves by running enough pen tests to know that they had certain exposed credentials that would've stopped the breach. Yeah. And they did not, had not done that in their environment. And I'm not poking. Yeah, >>They put it's interesting trend though. I mean it's obvious if sometimes those low end items are also not protected well. So it's easy to get at from a hacker standpoint, but also the people in charge of them can be fished easily or spear fished because they're not paying attention. Cause they don't have to. No one ever told them, Hey, be careful of what you collect. >>Yeah. For the community that I came from, John, that's exactly how they, they would meet you at a, an international event introduce themselves as a graduate student. These are national actor states. Would you mind reviewing my thesis on such and such? And I was at Adobe at the time though I was working on this and start off, you get the pdf, they opened the PDF and whoever that customer was launches, and I don't know if you remember back in like 2002, 2008 time frame, there was a lot of issues around IP being by a nation state being stolen from the United States and that's exactly how they did it. And John, that's >>Or LinkedIn. Hey I wanna get a joke, we wanna hire you double the salary. Oh I'm gonna click on that for sure. You know? Yeah, >>Right. Exactly. Yeah. The one thing I would say to you is like when we look at like sort of, you know, cuz I think we did 10,000 pen test last year is it's probably over that now, you know, we have these sort of top 10 ways that we think then fine people coming into the environment. The funniest thing is that only one of them is a, a CVE related vulnerability. Like, you know, you guys know what they are, right? So it's it, but it's, it's like 2% of the attacks are occurring through the CVEs, but yet there's all that attention spent to that. Yeah. And very little attention spent to this pen testing side. Yeah. Which is sort of this continuous threat, you know, monitoring space and, and, and this vulnerability space where I think we play such an important role and I'm so excited to be a part of the tip of the spear on this one. >>Yeah. I'm old enough to know the movie sneakers, which I love as a, you know, watching that movie, you know, professional hackers are testing, testing, always testing the environment. I love this. I gotta ask you, as we kind of wrap up here, Chris, if you don't mind the benefits to team professional services from this alliance, big news Splunk and you guys work well together. We see that clearly. What are, what other benefits do professional services teams see from the Splunk and Horizon three AI alliance? >>So if you're a, I think for, from our, our, from both of our partners as we bring these guys together and many of them already are the same partner, right? Is that first off, the licensing model is probably one of the key areas that we really excel at. So if you're an end user, you can buy for the enterprise by the enter of IP addresses you're using. But if you're a partner working with this, there's solution ways that you can go in and we'll license as to MSPs and what that business model on our MSPs looks like. But the unique thing that we do here is this c plus license. And so the Consulting Plus license allows like a, somebody a small to midsize to some very large, you know, Fortune 100, you know, consulting firms uses by buying into a license called Consulting Plus where they can have unlimited access to as many ips as they want. >>But you can only run one test at a time. And as you can imagine when we're going and hacking passwords and checking hashes and decrypting hashes, that can take a while. So, but for the right customer, it's, it's a perfect tool. And so I I'm so excited about our ability to go to market with our partners so that we underhand to sell, understand how not to just sell too or not tell just to sell through, but we know how to sell with them as a good vendor partner. I think that that's one thing that we've done a really good job building bringing into market. >>Yeah. I think also the Splunk has had great success how they've enabled partners and professional services. Absolutely. They've, you know, the services that layer on top of Splunk are multifold tons of great benefits. So you guys vector right into that ride, that wave with >>Friction. And, and the cool thing is that in, you know, in one of our reports, which could be totally customized with someone else's logo, we're going to generate, you know, so I, I used to work at another organization, it wasn't Splunk, but we, we did, you know, pen testing as a, as a for, for customers and my pen testers would come on site, they, they do the engagement and they would leave. And then another really, someone would be, oh shoot, we got another sector that was breached and they'd call you back, you know, four weeks later. And so by August our entire pen testings teams would be sold out and it would be like, wow. And in March maybe, and they'd like, No, no, no, I gotta breach now. And, and, and then when they do go in, they go through, do the pen test and they hand over a PDF and they pat you on the back and say, there's where your problems are, you need to fix it. And the reality is, is that what we're gonna generate completely autonomously with no human interaction is we're gonna go and find all the permutations that anything we found and the fix for those permutations and then once you fixed everything, you just go back and run another pen test. Yeah. It's, you know, for what people pay for one pen test, they could have a tool that does that. Every, every pat patch on Tuesday pen test on Wednesday, you know, triage throughout the week, >>Green, yellow, red. I wanted to see colors show me green, green is good, right? Not red. >>And once CIO doesn't want, who doesn't want that dashboard, right? It's, it's, it is exactly it. And we can help bring, I think that, you know, I'm really excited about helping drive this with the Splunk team cuz they get that, they understand that it's the green, yellow, red dashboard and, and how do we help them find more green so that the other guys are >>In Yeah. And get in the data and do the right thing and be efficient with how you use the data, Know what to look at. So many things to pay attention to, you know, the combination of both and then, then go to market strategy. Real brilliant. Congratulations Chris. Thanks for coming on and sharing this news with the detail around this Splunk in action around the alliance. Thanks for sharing, >>John. My pleasure. Thanks. Look forward to seeing you soon. >>All right, great. We'll follow up and do another segment on DevOps and IT and security teams as the new new ops, but, and Super cloud, a bunch of other stuff. So thanks for coming on. And our next segment, the CEO of Verizon, three AA, will break down all the new news for us here on the cube. You're watching the cube, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage.

(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase. This is season two, episode four of the ongoing series covering the exciting hot startups from the AWS ecosystem. Here we're talking about cybersecurity in this episode. I'm your host, John Furrier here we're excited to have CUBE alumni who's back Snehal Antani who's the CEO and co-founder of Horizon3.ai talking about exploitable weaknesses and vulnerabilities with autonomous pen testing. Snehal, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming back. >> Likewise, John. I think it's been about five years since you and I were on the stage together. And I've missed it, but I'm glad to see you again. >> Well, before we get into the showcase about your new startup, that's extremely successful, amazing margins, great product. You have a unique journey. We talked about this prior to you doing the journey, but you have a great story. You left the startup world to go into the startup, like world of self defense, public defense, NSA. What group did you go to in the public sector became a private partner. >> My background, I'm a software engineer by education and trade. I started my career at IBM. I was a CIO at GE Capital, and I think we met once when I was there and I became the CTO of Splunk. And we spent a lot of time together when I was at Splunk. And at the end of 2017, I decided to take a break from industry and really kind of solve problems that I cared deeply about and solve problems that mattered. So I left industry and joined the US Special Operations Community and spent about four years in US Special Operations, where I grew more personally and professionally than in anything I'd ever done in my career. And exited that time, met my co-founder in special ops. And then as he retired from the air force, we started Horizon3. >> So there's really, I want to bring that up one, 'cause it's fascinating that not a lot of people in Silicon Valley and tech would do that. So thanks for the service. And I know everyone who's out there in the public sector knows that this is a really important time for the tactical edge in our military, a lot of things going on around the world. So thanks for the service and a great journey. But there's a storyline with the company you're running now that you started. I know you get the jacket on there. I noticed get a little military vibe to it. Cybersecurity, I mean, every company's on their own now. They have to build their own militia. There is no government supporting companies anymore. There's no militia. No one's on the shores of our country defending the citizens and the companies, they got to offend for themselves. So every company has to have their own military. >> In many ways, you don't see anti-aircraft rocket launchers on top of the JP Morgan building in New York City because they rely on the government for air defense. But in cyber it's very different. Every company is on their own to defend for themselves. And what's interesting is this blend. If you look at the Ukraine, Russia war, as an example, a thousand companies have decided to withdraw from the Russian economy and those thousand companies we should expect to be in the ire of the Russian government and their proxies at some point. And so it's not just those companies, but their suppliers, their distributors. And it's no longer about cyber attack for extortion through ransomware, but rather cyber attack for punishment and retaliation for leaving. Those companies are on their own to defend themselves. There's no government that is dedicated to supporting them. So yeah, the reality is that cybersecurity, it's the burden of the organization. And also your attack surface has expanded to not just be your footprint, but if an adversary wants to punish you for leaving their economy, they can get, if you're in agriculture, they could disrupt your ability to farm or they could get all your fruit to spoil at the border 'cause they disrupted your distributors and so on. So I think the entire world is going to change over the next 18 to 24 months. And I think this idea of cybersecurity is going to become truly a national problem and a problem that breaks down any corporate barriers that we see in previously. >> What are some of the things that inspired you to start this company? And I loved your approach of thinking about the customer, your customer, as defending themselves in context to threats, really leaning into it, being ready and able to defend. Horizon3 has a lot of that kind of military thinking for the good of the company. What's the motivation? Why this company? Why now? What's the value proposition? >> So there's two parts to why the company and why now. The first part was what my observation, when I left industry realm or my military background is watching "Jack Ryan" and "Tropic Thunder" and I didn't come from the military world. And so when I entered the special operations community, step one was to keep my mouth shut, learn, listen, and really observe and understand what made that community so impressive. And obviously the people and it's not about them being fast runners or great shooters or awesome swimmers, but rather there are learn-it-alls that can solve any problem as a team under pressure, which is the exact culture you want to have in any startup, early stage companies are learn-it-alls that can solve any problem under pressure as a team. So I had this immediate advantage when we started Horizon3, where a third of Horizon3 employees came from that special operations community. So one is this awesome talent. But the second part that, I remember this quote from a special operations commander that said we use live rounds in training because if we used fake rounds or rubber bullets, everyone would act like metal of honor winners. And the whole idea there is you train like you fight, you build that muscle memory for crisis and response and so on upfront. So when you're in the thick of it, you already know how to react. And this aligns to a pain I had in industry. I had no idea I was secure until the bad guy showed up. I had no idea if I was fixing the right vulnerabilities, logging the right data in Splunk, or if my CrowdStrike EDR platform was configured correctly, I had to wait for the bad guys to show up. I didn't know if my people knew how to respond to an incident. So what I wanted to do was proactively verify my security posture, proactively harden my systems. I needed to do that by continuously pen testing myself or continuously testing my security posture. And there just wasn't any way to do that where an IT admin or a network engineer could in three clicks have the power of a 20 year pen testing expert. And that was really what we set out to do, not build a autonomous pen testing platform for security people, build it so that anybody can quickly test their security posture and then use the output to fix problems that truly matter. >> So the value preposition, if I get this right is, there's a lot of companies out there doing pen tests. And I know I hate pen tests. They're like, cause you do DevOps, it changes you got to do another pen test. So it makes sense to do autonomous pen testing. So congratulations on seeing that that's obvious to that, but a lot of other have consulting tied to it. Which seems like you need to train someone and you guys taking a different approach. >> Yeah, we actually, as a company have zero consulting, zero professional services. And the whole idea is that build a true software as a service offering where an intern, in fact, we've got a video of a nine year old that in three clicks can run pen tests against themselves. And because of that, you can wire pen tests into your DevOps tool chain. You can run multiple pen tests today. In fact, I've got customers running 40, 50 pen tests a month against their organization. And that what that does is completely lowers the barrier of entry for being able to verify your posture. If you have consulting on average, when I was a CIO, it was at least a three month lead time to schedule consultants to show up and then they'd show up, they'd embarrass the security team, they'd make everyone look bad, 'cause they're going to get in, leave behind a report. And that report was almost identical to what they found last year because the older that report, the one the date itself gets stale, the context changes and so on. And then eventually you just don't even bother fixing it. Or if you fix a problem, you don't have the skills to verify that has been fixed. So I think that consulting led model was acceptable when you viewed security as a compliance checkbox, where once a year was sufficient to meet your like PCI requirements. But if you're really operating with a wartime mindset and you actually need to harden and secure your environment, you've got to be running pen test regularly against your organization from different perspectives, inside, outside, from the cloud, from work, from home environments and everything in between. >> So for the CISOs out there, for the CSOs and the CXOs, what's the pitch to them because I see your jacket that says Horizon3 AI, trust but verify. But this trust is, but is canceled out, just as verify. What's the product that you guys are offering the service. Describe what it is and why they should look at it. >> Yeah, sure. So one, when I back when I was the CIO, don't tell me we're secure in PowerPoint. Show me we're secure right now. Show me we're secure again tomorrow. And then show me we're secure again next week because my environment is constantly changing and the adversary always has a vote and they're always evolving. And this whole idea of show me we're secure. Don't trust that your security tools are working, verify that they can detect and respond and stifle an attack and then verify tomorrow, verify next week. That's the big mind shift. Now what we do is-- >> John: How do they respond to that by the way? Like they don't believe you at first or what's the story. >> I think, there's actually a very bifurcated response. There are still a decent chunk of CIOs and CSOs that have a security is a compliance checkbox mindset. So my attitude with them is I'm not going to convince you. You believe it's a checkbox. I'll just wait for you to get breached and sell to your replacement, 'cause you'll get fired. And in the meantime, I spend all my energy with those that actually care about proactively securing and hardening their environments. >> That's true. People do get fired. Can you give an example of what you're saying about this environment being ready, proving that you're secure today, tomorrow and a few weeks out. Give me an example. >> Of, yeah, I'll give you actually a customer example. There was a healthcare organization and they had about 5,000 hosts in their environment and they did everything right. They had Fortinet as their EDR platform. They had user behavior analytics in place that they had purchased and tuned. And when they ran a pen test self-service, our product node zero immediately started to discover every host on the network. It then fingerprinted all those hosts and found it was able to get code execution on three machines. So it got code execution, dumped credentials, laterally maneuvered, and became a domain administrator, which in IT, if an attacker becomes a domain admin, they've got keys to the kingdom. So at first the question was, how did the node zero pen test become domain admin? How'd they get code execution, Fortinet should have detected and stopped it. Well, it turned out Fortinet was misconfigured on three boxes out of 5,000. And these guys had no idea and it's just automation that went wrong and so on. And now they would've only known they had misconfigured their EDR platform on three hosts if the attacker had showed up. The second question though was, why didn't they catch the lateral movement? Which all their marketing brochures say they're supposed to catch. And it turned out that that customer purchased the wrong Fortinet modules. One again, they had no idea. They thought they were doing the right thing. So don't trust just installing your tools is good enough. You've got to exercise and verify them. We've got tons of stories from patches that didn't actually apply to being able to find the AWS admin credentials on a local file system. And then using that to log in and take over the cloud. In fact, I gave this talk at Black Hat on war stories from running 10,000 pen tests. And that's just the reality is, you don't know that these tools and processes are working for you until the bad guys have shown. >> The velocities there. You can accelerate through logs, you know from the days you've been there. This is now the threat. Being, I won't say lazy, but just not careful or just not thinking. >> Well, I'll do an example. We have a lot of customers that are Horizon3 customers and Splunk customers. And what you'll see their behavior is, is they'll have Horizon3 up on one screen. And every single attacker command executed with its timestamp is up on that screen. And then look at Splunk and say, hey, we were able to dump vCenter credentials from VMware products at this time on this host, what did Splunk see or what didn't they see? Why were no logs generated? And it turns out that they had some logging blind spots. So what they'll actually do is run us to almost like stimulate the defensive tools and then see what did the tools catch? What did they miss? What are those blind spots and how do they fix it. >> So your price called node zero. You mentioned that. Is that specifically a suite, a tool, a platform. How do people consume and engage with you guys? >> So the way that we work, the whole product is designed to be self-service. So once again, while we have a sales team, the whole intent is you don't need to have to talk to a sales rep to start using the product, you can log in right now, go to Horizon3.ai, you can run a trial log in with your Google ID, your LinkedIn ID, start running pen test against your home or against your network against this organization right now, without talking to anybody. The whole idea is self-service, run a pen test in three clicks and give you the power of that 20 year pen testing expert. And then what'll happen is node zero will execute and then it'll provide to you a full report of here are all of the different paths or attack paths or sequences where we are able to become an admin in your environment. And then for every attack path, here is the path or the kill chain, the proof of exploitation for every step along the way. Here's exactly what you've got to do to fix it. And then once you've fixed it, here's how you verify that you've truly fixed the problem. And this whole aha moment is run us to find problems. You fix them, rerun us to verify that the problem has been fixed. >> Talk about the company, how many people do you have and get some stats? >> Yeah, so we started writing code in January of 2020, right before the pandemic hit. And then about 10 months later at the end of 2020, we launched the first version of the product. We've been in the market for now about two and a half years total from start of the company till present. We've got 130 employees. We've got more customers than we do employees, which is really cool. And instead our customers shift from running one pen test a year to 40, 50 pen test. >> John: And it's full SaaS. >> The whole product is full SaaS. So no consulting, no pro serve. You run as often as you-- >> Who's downloading, who's buying the product. >> What's amazing is, we have customers in almost every section or sector now. So we're not overly rotated towards like healthcare or financial services. We've got state and local education or K through 12 education, state and local government, a number of healthcare companies, financial services, manufacturing. We've got organizations that large enterprises. >> John: Security's diverse. >> It's very diverse. >> I mean, ransomware must be a big driver. I mean, is that something that you're seeing a lot. >> It is. And the thing about ransomware is, if you peel back the outcome of ransomware, which is extortion, at the end of the day, what ransomware organizations or criminals or APTs will do is they'll find out who all your employees are online. They will then figure out if you've got 7,000 employees, all it takes is one of them to have a bad password. And then attackers are going to credential spray to find that one person with a bad password or whose Netflix password that's on the dark web is also their same password to log in here, 'cause most people reuse. And then from there they're going to most likely in your organization, the domain user, when you log in, like you probably have local admin on your laptop. If you're a windows machine and I've got local admin on your laptop, I'm going to be able to dump credentials, get the admin credentials and then start to laterally maneuver. Attackers don't have to hack in using zero days like you see in the movies, often they're logging in with valid user IDs and passwords that they've found and collected from somewhere else. And then they make that, they maneuver by making a low plus a low equal a high. And the other thing in financial services, we spend all of our time fixing critical vulnerabilities, attackers know that. So they've adapted to finding ways to chain together, low priority vulnerabilities and misconfigurations and dangerous defaults to become admin. So while we've over rotated towards just fixing the highs and the criticals attackers have adapted. And once again they have a vote, they're always evolving their tactics. >> And how do you prevent that from happening? >> So we actually apply those same tactics. Rarely do we actually need a CVE to compromise your environment. We will harvest credentials, just like an attacker. We will find misconfigurations and dangerous defaults, just like an attacker. We will combine those together. We'll make use of exploitable vulnerabilities as appropriate and use that to compromise your environment. So the tactics that, in many ways we've built a digital weapon and the tactics we apply are the exact same tactics that are applied by the adversary. >> So you guys basically simulate hacking. >> We actually do the hacking. Simulate means there's a fakeness to it. >> So you guys do hack. >> We actually compromise. >> Like sneakers the movie, those sneakers movie for the old folks like me. >> And in fact that was my inspiration. I've had this idea for over a decade now, which is I want to be able to look at anything that laptop, this Wi-Fi network, gear in hospital or a truck driving by and know, I can figure out how to gain initial access, rip that environment apart and be able to opponent. >> Okay, Chuck, he's not allowed in the studio anymore. (laughs) No, seriously. Some people are exposed. I mean, some companies don't have anything. But there's always passwords or so most people have that argument. Well, there's nothing to protect here. Not a lot of sensitive data. How do you respond to that? Do you see that being kind of putting the head in the sand or? >> Yeah, it's actually, it's less, there's not sensitive data, but more we've installed or applied multifactor authentication, attackers can't get in now. Well MFA only applies or does not apply to lower level protocols. So I can find a user ID password, log in through SMB, which isn't protected by multifactor authentication and still upon your environment. So unfortunately I think as a security industry, we've become very good at giving a false sense of security to organizations. >> John: Compliance drives that behavior. >> Compliance drives that. And what we need. Back to don't tell me we're secure, show me, we've got to, I think, change that to a trust but verify, but get rid of the trust piece of it, just to verify. >> Okay, we got a lot of CISOs and CSOs watching this showcase, looking at the hot startups, what's the message to the executives there. Do they want to become more leaning in more hawkish if you will, to use the military term on security? I mean, I heard one CISO say, security first then compliance 'cause compliance can make you complacent and then you're unsecure at that point. >> I actually say that. I agree. One definitely security is different and more important than being compliant. I think there's another emerging concept, which is I'd rather be defensible than secure. What I mean by that is security is a point in time state. I am secure right now. I may not be secure tomorrow 'cause something's changed. But if I'm defensible, then what I have is that muscle memory to detect, respondent and stifle an attack. And that's what's more important. Can I detect you? How long did it take me to detect you? Can I stifle you from achieving your objective? How long did it take me to stifle you? What did you use to get in to gain access? How long did that sit in my environment? How long did it take me to fix it? So on and so forth. But I think it's being defensible and being able to rapidly adapt to changing tactics by the adversary is more important. >> This is the evolution of how the red line never moved. You got the adversaries in our networks and our banks. Now they hang out and they wait. So everyone thinks they're secure. But when they start getting hacked, they're not really in a position to defend, the alarms go off. Where's the playbook. Team springs into action. I mean, you kind of get the visual there, but this is really the issue being defensible means having your own essentially military for your company. >> Being defensible, I think has two pieces. One is you've got to have this culture and process in place of training like you fight because you want to build that incident response muscle memory ahead of time. You don't want to have to learn how to respond to an incident in the middle of the incident. So that is that proactively verifying your posture and continuous pen testing is critical there. The second part is the actual fundamentals in place so you can detect and stifle as appropriate. And also being able to do that. When you are continuously verifying your posture, you need to verify your entire posture, not just your test systems, which is what most people do. But you have to be able to safely pen test your production systems, your cloud environments, your perimeter. You've got to assume that the bad guys are going to get in, once they're in, what can they do? So don't just say that my perimeter's secure and I'm good to go. It's the soft squishy center that attackers are going to get into. And from there, can you detect them and can you stop them? >> Snehal, take me through the use. You got to be sold on this, I love this topic. Alright, pen test. Is it, what am I buying? Just pen test as a service. You mentioned dark web. Are you actually buying credentials online on behalf of the customer? What is the product? What am I buying if I'm the CISO from Horizon3? What's the service? What's the product, be specific. >> So very specifically and one just principles. The first principle is when I was a buyer, I hated being nickled and dimed buyer vendors, which was, I had to buy 15 different modules in order to achieve an objective. Just give me one line item, make it super easy to buy and don't nickel and dime me. Because I've spent time as a buyer that very much has permeated throughout the company. So there is a single skew from Horizon3. It is an annual subscription based on how big your environment is. And it is inclusive of on-prem internal pen tests, external pen tests, cloud attacks, work from home attacks, our ability to harvest credentials from the dark web and from open source sources. Being able to crack those credentials, compromise. All of that is included as a singles skew. All you get as a CISO is a singles skew, annual subscription, and you can run as many pen tests as you want. Some customers still stick to, maybe one pen test a quarter, but most customers shift when they realize there's no limit, we don't nickel and dime. They can run 10, 20, 30, 40 a month. >> Well, it's not nickel and dime in the sense that, it's more like dollars and hundreds because they know what to expect if it's classic cloud consumption. They kind of know what their environment, can people try it. Let's just say I have a huge environment, I have a cloud, I have an on-premise private cloud. Can I dabble and set parameters around pricing? >> Yes you can. So one is you can dabble and set perimeter around scope, which is like manufacturing does this, do not touch the production line that's on at the moment. We've got a hospital that says every time they run a pen test, any machine that's actually connected to a patient must be excluded. So you can actually set the parameters for what's in scope and what's out of scope up front, most again we're designed to be safe to run against production so you can set the parameters for scope. You can set the parameters for cost if you want. But our recommendation is I'd rather figure out what you can afford and let you test everything in your environment than try to squeeze every penny from you by only making you buy what can afford as a smaller-- >> So the variable ratio, if you will is, how much they spend is the size of their environment and usage. >> Just size of the environment. >> So it could be a big ticket item for a CISO then. >> It could, if you're really large, but for the most part-- >> What's large? >> I mean, if you were Walmart, well, let me back up. What I heard is global 10 companies spend anywhere from 50 to a hundred million dollars a year on security testing. So they're already spending a ton of money, but they're spending it on consultants that show up maybe a couple of times a year. They don't have, humans can't scale to test a million hosts in your environment. And so you're already spending that money, spend a fraction of that and use us and run as much as you want. And that's really what it comes down to. >> John: All right. So what's the response from customers? >> What's really interesting is there are three use cases. The first is that SOC manager that is using us to verify that their security tools are actually working. So their Splunk environment is logging the right data. It's integrating properly with CrowdStrike, it's integrating properly with their active directory services and their password policies. So the SOC manager is using us to verify the effectiveness of their security controls. The second use case is the IT director that is using us to proactively harden their systems. Did they install VMware correctly? Did they install their Cisco gear correctly? Are they patching right? And then the third are for the companies that are lucky to have their own internal pen test and red teams where they use us like a force multiplier. So if you've got 10 people on your red team and you still have a million IPs or hosts in your environment, you still don't have enough people for that coverage. So they'll use us to do recon at scale and attack at scale and let the humans focus on the really juicy hard stuff that humans are successful at. >> Love the product. Again, I'm trying to think about how I engage on the test. Is there pilots? Is there a demo version? >> There's a free trials. So we do 30 day free trials. The output can actually be used to meet your SOC 2 requirements. So in many ways you can just use us to get a free SOC 2 pen test report right now, if you want. Go to the website, log in for a free trial, you can log into your Google ID or your LinkedIn ID, run a pen test against your organization and use that to answer your PCI segmentation test requirements, your SOC 2 requirements, but you will be hooked. You will want to run us more often. And you'll get a Horizon3 tattoo. >> The first hits free as they say in the drug business. >> Yeah. >> I mean, so you're seeing that kind of response then, trial converts. >> It's exactly. In fact, we have a very well defined aha moment, which is you run us to find, you fix, you run us to verify, we have 100% technical win rate when our customers hit a find, fix, verify cycle, then it's about budget and urgency. But 100% technical win rate because of that aha moment, 'cause people realize, holy crap, I don't have to wait six months to verify that my problems have actually been fixed. I can just come in, click, verify, rerun the entire pen test or rerun a very specific part of it on what I just patched my environment. >> Congratulations, great stuff. You're here part of the AWS Startup Showcase. So I have to ask, what's the relationship with AWS, you're on their cloud. What kind of actions going on there? Is there secret sauce on there? What's going on? >> So one is we are AWS customers ourselves, our brains command and control infrastructure. All of our analytics are all running on AWS. It's amazing, when we run a pen test, we are able to use AWS and we'll spin up a virtual private cloud just for that pen test. It's completely ephemeral, it's all Lambda functions and graph analytics and other techniques. When the pen test ends, you can delete, there's a single use Docker container that gets deleted from your environment so you have nothing on-prem to deal with and the entire virtual private cloud tears itself down. So at any given moment, if we're running 50 pen tests or a hundred pen tests, self-service, there's a hundred virtual private clouds being managed in AWS that are spinning up, running and tearing down. It's an absolutely amazing underlying platform for us to make use of. Two is that many customers that have hybrid environments. So they've got a cloud infrastructure, an Office 365 infrastructure and an on-prem infrastructure. We are a single attack platform that can test all of that together. No one else can do it. And so the AWS customers that are especially AWS hybrid customers are the ones that we do really well targeting. >> Got it. And that's awesome. And that's the benefit of cloud? >> Absolutely. And the AWS marketplace. What's absolutely amazing is the competitive advantage being part of the marketplace has for us, because the simple thing is my customers, if they already have dedicated cloud spend, they can use their approved cloud spend to pay for Horizon3 through the marketplace. So you don't have to, if you already have that budget dedicated, you can use that through the marketplace. The other is you've already got the vendor processes in place, you can purchase through your existing AWS account. So what I love about the AWS company is one, the infrastructure we use for our own pen test, two, the marketplace, and then three, the customers that span that hybrid cloud environment. That's right in our strike zone. >> Awesome. Well, congratulations. And thanks for being part of the showcase and I'm sure your product is going to do very, very well. It's very built for what people want. Self-service get in, get the value quickly. >> No agents to install, no consultants to hire. safe to run against production. It's what I wanted. >> Great to see you and congratulations and what a great story. And we're going to keep following you. Thanks for coming on. >> Snehal: Phenomenal. Thank you, John. >> This is the AWS Startup Showcase. I'm John John Furrier, your host. This is season two, episode four on cybersecurity. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase, season two, episode four. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. This topic is cybersecurity detect and protect against threats. Very excited to welcome a CUBE alumni back to the program. Snehal Antani, the co-founder and CEO of Horizon3 joins me. Snehal, it's great to have you back in the studio. >> Likewise, thanks for the invite. >> Tell us a little bit about Horizon3, what is it that you guys do? You were founded in 2019, got a really interesting group of folks with interesting backgrounds, but talk to the audience about what it is that you guys are aiming to do. >> Sure, so maybe back to the problem we were trying to solve. So my background, I was a engineer by trade, I was a CIO at G Capital, CTO at Splunk and helped grow scale that company. And then took a break from industry to serve within the Department of Defense. And in every one of my jobs where I had cyber security in my responsibility, I suffered from the same problem. I had no idea I was secure or that we were fixing the right vulnerabilities or logging the right data in Splunk or that our tools and processes and people worked together well until the bad guys had showed up. And by then it was too late. And what I wanted to do was proactively verify my security posture, make sure that my security tools were actually effective, that my people knew how to respond to a breach before the bad guys were there. And so this whole idea of continuously verifying my security posture through security testing and pen testing became a passion project of mine for over a decade. And through my time in the DOD found the right group of an early people that had offensive cyber experience, that had defensive cyber experience, that knew how to build and ship and deliver software at scale. And we came together at the end of 2019 to start Horizon3. >> Talk to me about the current threat landscape. We've seen so much change in flux in the last couple of years. Globally, we've seen the threat actors are just getting more and more sophisticated as is the different types of attacks. What are you seeing kind of horizontally across the threat landscape? >> Yeah, the biggest thing is attackers don't have to hack in using Zero-days like you see in the movies. Often they're able to just log in with valid credentials that they've collected through some mechanism. As an example, if I wanted to compromise a large organization, say United Airlines, one of the things that an attacker's going to go off and do is go to LinkedIn and find all of the employees that work at United Airlines. Now you've got say, 7,000 pilots. Of those pilots, you're going to figure out quickly that their user IDs and passwords or their user IDs at least are first name, last initial @united.com. Cool, now I have 7,000 potential logins and all it takes is one of them to reuse a compromised password for their corporate email, and now you've got an initial user in the system. And most likely, that initial user has local admin on their laptops. And from there, an attacker can dump credentials and find a path to becoming a domain administrator. And what happens oftentimes is, security tools don't detect this because it looks like valid behavior in the organization. And this is pretty common, this idea of collecting information on an organization or a target using open source intelligence, using a mix of credential spraying and kind of low priority or low severity exploitations or misconfigurations to get in. And then from there, systematically dumping credentials, reusing those credentials, and finding a path towards compromise. And less than 2% of CVEs are actually used in exploits. Most of the time, attackers chain together misconfigurations, bad product defaults. And so really the threat landscape is, attackers don't hack in, they log in. And organizations have to focus on getting the basics right and fundamentals right first before they layer on some magic easy button that is some security AI tools hoping that that's going to save their day. And that's what we found systemically across the board. >> So you're finding that across the board, probably pan-industry that a lot of companies need to go back to basics. We talk about that a lot when we're talking about security, why do you think that is? >> I think it's because, one, most organizations are barely treading water. When you look at the early rapid adopters of Horizon3's pen testing product, autonomous pen testing, the early adopters tended to be teams where the IT team and the security team were the same person, and they were barely treading water. And the hardest part of my job as a CIO was deciding what not to fix. Because the bottleneck in the security process is the actual capacity to fix problems. And so, fiercely prioritizing issues becomes really important. But the tools and the processes don't focus on prioritizing what's exploitable, they prioritize by some arbitrary score from some arbitrary vulnerability scanner. And so we have as a fundamental breakdown of the small group of folks with the expertise to fix problems tend to be the most overworked and tend to have the most noise to need to sift through. So they don't even have time to get to the basics. They're just barely treading water doing their day jobs and they're often sacrificing their nights and weekends. All of us at Horizon3 were practitioners at one point in our career, we've all been called in on the weekend. So that's why what we did was fiercely focus on helping customers and users fix problems that truly matter, and allowing them to quickly reattack and verify that the problems were truly fixed. >> So when it comes to today's threat landscape, what is it that organizations across the board should really be focused on? >> I think, systemically, what we see are bad password or credential policies, least access privileged management type processes not being well implemented. The domain user tends to be the local admin on the box, no ability to understand what is a valid login versus a malicious login. Those are some of the basics that we see systemically. And if you layer that with it's very easy to say, misconfigure vCenter, or misconfigure a piece of Cisco gear, or you're not going to be installing, monitoring security observability tools on that HPE Integrated Lights Out server and so on. What you'll find is that you've got people overworked that don't have the capacity to fix. You have the fundamentals or the basics not well implemented. And you have a whole bunch of blind spots in your security posture. And defenders have to be right every time, attackers only have to be right once. And so what we have is this asymmetric fight where attackers are very likely to get in, and we see this on the news all the time. >> So, and nobody, of course, wants to be the next headline, right? Talk to me a little bit about autonomous pen testing as a service, what you guys are delivering, and what makes it unique and different than other tools that have been out, as you're saying, that clearly have gaps. >> Yeah. So first and foremost was the approach we took in building our product. What we set upfront was, our primary users should be IT administrators, network engineers, and that IT intern who, in three clicks, should have the power of a 20-year pen testing expert. So the whole idea was empower and enable all of the fixers to find, fix, and verify their security weaknesses continuously. That was the design goal. Most other security products are designed for security people, but we already know they're task saturated, they've got way too many tools under the belt. So first and foremost, we wanted to empower the fixers to fix problems that truly matter. The second part was, we wanted to do that without having to install credentialed agents all over the place or writing your own custom attack scripts, or having to do a bunch of configurations and make sure that it's safe to run against production systems so that you could test your entire attack surface. Your on-prem, your cloud, your external perimeter. And this is where AWS comes in to be very important, especially hybrid customers where you've got a portion of your infrastructure on AWS, a portion on-prem, and you use Horizon3 to be able to attack your complete attack surface. So we can start on-prem and we will find say, the AWS credentials file that was mistakenly saved on a shared drive, and then reuse that to become admin in the cloud. AWS didn't do anything wrong, the cloud team didn't do anything wrong, a developer happened to share a password or save a password file locally. That's how attackers get in. So we can start from on-prem and show how we can compromise the cloud, start from the cloud and show how we can compromise on-prem. Start from the outside and break in. And we're able to show that complete attack surface at scale for hybrid customers. >> So showing that complete attack surface sort of from the eyes of the attacker? >> That's exactly right, because while blue teams or the defenders have a very specific view of their environment, you have to look at yourself through the eyes of the attacker to understand what are your blind spots, what do they see that you don't see. And it's actually a discipline that is well entrenched within military culture. And that's also important for us as the company. We're about a third of Horizon3 served in US special operations or the intelligence community with the United States, and then DOD writ large. And a lot of that red team mindset, view yourself through the eyes of the attacker, and this idea of training like you fight and building muscle memory so you know how to react to the real incident when it occurs is just ingrained in how we operate, and we disseminate that culture through all of our customers as well. >> And at this point in time, every business needs to assume an attacker's going to get in. >> That's right. There are way too many doors and windows in the organization. Attackers are going to get in, whether it's a single customer that reused their Netflix password for their corporate email, a patch that didn't get applied properly, or a new Zero-day that just gets published. A piece of Cisco software that was misconfigured, not buy anything more than it's easy to misconfigure these complex pieces of technology. Attackers are going to get in. And what we want to understand as customers is, once they're in, what could they do? Could they get to my crown jewel's data and systems? Could they borrow and prepare for a much more complicated attack down the road? If you assume breach, now you want to understand what can they get to, how quickly can you detect that breach, and what are your ways to stifle their ability to achieve their objectives. And culturally, we would need a shift from talking about how secure I am to how defensible are we. Security is kind of a point in time state of your organization. Defensibility is how quickly you can adapt to the attacker to stifle their ability to achieve their objective. >> As things are changing constantly. >> That's exactly right. >> Yeah. Talk to me about a typical customer engagement. If there's, you mentioned folks treading water, obviously, there's the huge cybersecurity skills gap that we've been talking about for a long time now, that's another factor there. But when you're in customer conversations, who are you talking to? Typically, what are they coming to you for help? >> Yeah. One big thing is, you're not going to win and win a customer by taking 'em out to steak dinners. Not anymore. The way we focus on our go to market and our sales motion is cultivating champions. At the end of the proof of concept, our internal measure of successes is, is that person willing to get a Horizon3 tattoo? And you do that, not through steak dinners, not through cool swag, not through marketing, but by letting your results do the talking. Now, part of those results should not require professional services or consulting. The whole experience should be self-service, frictionless, and insightful. And that really is how we've designed the product and designed the entire sales motion. So a prospect will learn or discover about us, whether it's through LinkedIn, through social, through the website, but often because one of their friends or colleagues heard about us, saw our result, and is advocating on our behalf when we're not in the room. From there, they're going to be able to self-service, just log in to our product through their LinkedIn ID, their Google ID. They can engage with a salesperson if they want to. They can run a pen test right there on the spot against their home without any interaction with a sales rep. Let those results do the talking, use that as a starting point to engage in a more complicated proof of value. And the whole idea is we don't charge for these, we let our results do the talking. And at the end, after they've run us to find problems, they've gone off and fixed those issues, and they've rerun us to verify that what they've fixed was properly fixed, then they're hooked. And we have a hundred percent technical win rate with our prospects when they hit that find-fix-verify cycle, which is awesome. And then we get the tattoo for them, at least give them the template. And then we're off to the races. >> Sounds like you're making the process more simple. There's so much complexity behind it, but allowing users to be able to actually test it out themselves in a simplified way is huge. Allowing them to really focus on becoming defensible. >> That's exactly right. And the value is, especially now in security, there's so much hype and so much noise. There's a lot more time being spent self-discovering and researching technologies before you engage in a commercial discussion. And so what we try to do is optimize that entire buying experience around enabling people to discover and research and learn. The other part, remember is, offensive cyber and ethical hacking and so on is very mysterious and magical to most defenders. It's such a complicated topic with many nuance tools that they don't have the time to understand or learn. And so if you surface the complexity of all those attacker tools, you're going to overwhelm a person that is already overwhelmed. So we needed the experience to be incredibly simple and optimize that find-fix-verify aha moment. And once again, be frictionless and be insightful. >> Frictionless and insightful. Excellent. Talk to me about results, you mentioned results. We love talking about outcomes. When a customer goes through the PoC, PoV that you talked about, what are some of the results that they see that hook them? >> Yeah, the biggest thing is, what attackers do today is they will find a low from machine one plus a low from machine two equals compromised domain. What they're doing is they're chaining together issues across multiple parts of your system or your organization to opone your environment. What attackers don't do is find a critical vulnerability and exploit that single machine. It's always a chain, always multiple steps in the attack. And so the entire product and experience in, actually, our underlying tech is around attack paths. Here is the path, the attack path an attacker could have taken. That node zero our product took. Here is the proof of exploitation for every step along the way. So you know this isn't a false positive. In fact, you can copy and paste the attacker command from the product and rerun it yourself and see it for yourself. And then here is exactly what you have to go fix and why it's important to fix. So that path, proof, impact, and fix action is what the entire experience is focused on. And that is the results doing the talking, because remember, these folks are already overwhelmed, they're dealing with a lot of false positives. And if you tell them you've got another critical to fix, their immediate reaction is "Nope, I don't believe you. This is a false positive. I've seen this plenty of times, that's not important." So you have to, in your product experience and sales process and adoption process, immediately cut through that defensive or that reflex. And it's path, proof, impact. Here's exactly what you fix, here are the exact steps to fix it, and then you're off to the races. What I learned at Splunk was, you win hearts and minds of your users through amazing experience, product experience, amazing documentation. >> Yes. >> And a vibrant community of champions. Those are the three ingredients of success, and we've really made that the core of the product. So we win on our documentation, we win on the product experience, and we've cultivated pretty awesome community. >> Talk to me about some of those champions. Is there a customer story that you think really articulates the value of node zero and what it is that you are doing? >> Yeah, I'll tell you a couple. Actually, I just gave this talk at Black Hat on war stories from running 10,000 pen tests. And I'll try to be gentle on the vendors that were involved here, but the reality is, you got to be honest and authentic. So a customer, a healthcare organization ran a pen test and they were using a very well-known managed security services provider as their security operations team. And so they initiate the pen test and they wanted to audit their response time of their MSSP. So they run the pen test and we're in and out. The whole pen test runs two hours or less. And in those two hours, the pen test compromises the domain, gets access to a bunch of sensitive data, laterally maneuvers, rips the entire environment apart. It took seven hours for the MSSP to send an email notification to the IT director that said, "Hey, we think something suspicious is going on." >> Wow. >> Seven hours! >> That's a long time. >> We were in and out in two, seven hours for notification. And the issue with that healthcare company was, they thought they had hired the right MSSP, but they had no way to audit their performance. And so we gave them the details and the ammunition to get services credits to hold them accountable and also have a conversation of switching to somebody else. >> Accountability is key, especially when we're talking about the threat landscape and how it's evolving day to day. >> That's exactly right. Accountability of your suppliers or your security vendors, accountability of your people and your processes, and not having to wait for the bad guys to show up to test your posture. That's what's really important. Another story that's interesting. This customer did everything right. It was a banking customer, large environment, and they had Fortinet installed as their EDR type platform. And they initiate us as a pen test and we're able to get code execution on one of their machines. And from there, laterally maneuver to become a domain administrator, which in security is a really big deal. So they came back and said, "This is absolutely not possible. Fortinet should have stopped that from occurring." And it turned out, because we showed the path and the proof and the impact, Fortinet was misconfigured on three machines out of 5,000. And they had no idea. >> Wow. >> So it's one of those, you want to don't trust that your tools are working, don't trust your processes, verify them. Show me we're secure today. Show me we're secure tomorrow. And then show me again we're secure next week. Because my environment's constantly changing and the adversary always has a vote. >> Right, the constant change in flux is huge challenge for organizations, but those results clearly speak for themselves. You talked about speed in terms of time, how quickly can a customer deploy your technology, identify and remedy problems in their environment? >> Yeah, this find-fix-verify aha moment, if you will. So traditionally, a customer would have to maybe run one or two pen tests a year. And then they'd go off and fix things. They have no capacity to test them 'cause they don't have the internal attack expertise. So they'd wait for the next pen test and figure out that they were still exploitable. Usually, this year's pen test results look identical than last year's. That isn't sustainable. So our customers shift from running one or two pen tests a year to 40 pen tests a month. And they're in this constant loop of finding, fixing, and verifying all of the weaknesses in their infrastructure. Remember, there's infrastructure pen testing, which is what we are really good at, and then there's application level pen testing that humans are much better at solving. >> Okay. >> So we focus on the infrastructure side, especially at scale. But can you imagine, 40 pen tests a month, they run from the perimeter, the inside from a specific subnet, from work from home machines, from the cloud. And they're running these pen tests from many different perspectives to understand what does the attacker see from each of these locations in their organization and how do they systemically fix those issues? And what they look at is, how many critical problems were found, how quickly were they fixed, how often do they reoccur. And that third metric is important because you might fix something, but if it shows up again next week because you've got bad automation, you're in a rat race. So you want to look at that reoccurrence rate also. >> The reoccurrence rate. What are you most excited about as, obviously, the threat landscape continues to evolve, but what are you most excited about for the company and what it is that you're able to help organizations across industries achieve in such tumultuous times? >> Yeah. One of the coolest things is, because I was a customer for many of these products, I despised threat intelligence products. I despised them. Because there were basically generic blog posts. Maybe delivered as a data feed to my Splunk environment or something. But they're always really generic. Like, "You may have a problem here." And as a result, they weren't very actionable. So one of the really cool things that we do, it's just part of the product is this concept of flares, flares that we shoot up. And the idea is not to cause angst or anxiety or panic, but rather we look at threat intelligence and then because all of the insights we have from your pen test results, we connect those two together and say, "Your VMware Horizon instance at this IP is exploitable. You need to fix it as fast as possible, or is very likely to be exploited. And here is the threat intelligence and in the news from CSAI and elsewhere that shows why it's important." So I think what is really cool is we're able to take together threat intelligence out in the wild combined with very precise understanding of your environment to give you very accurate and actionable starting points for what you need to go fix or test or verify. And when we do that, what we see is almost like, imagine this ball bouncing, that is the first drop of the ball, and then that drives the first major pen test. And then they'll run all these subsequent pen tests to continue to find and fix and verify. And so what we see is this tremendous amount of excitement from customers that we're actually giving them accurate, detailed information to take advantage of, and we're not causing panic and we're not causing alert and fatigue as a result. >> That's incredibly important in this type of environment. Last question for you. If autonomous pen testing is obviously critical and has tremendous amount of potential for organizations, but it's only part of the equation. What's the larger vision? >> Yeah, we are not a pen testing company and that's something we decided upfront. Pen testing is a sensor. It collects and understands a tremendous amount of data for your attack surface. So the natural next thing is to analyze the pen test results over time to start to give you a more accurate understanding of your governance, risk, and compliance posture. So now what happens is, we are able to allow customers to go run 40 pen tests a month. And that kind of becomes the initial land or flagship product. But then from there, we're able to upsell or increase value to our customers and start to compete and take out companies like Security Scorecard or RiskIQ and other companies like that, where there tended to be, I was a user of all those tools, a lot of garbage in, garbage out. Where you can't fill out a spreadsheet and get an accurate understanding of your risk posture. You need to look at your detailed pen test results over time and use that to accurately understand what are your hotspots, what's your recurrence rate and so on. And being able to tell that story to your auditors, to your regulators, to the board. And actually, it gives you a much more accurate way to show return on investment of your security spend also. >> Which is huge. So where can customers and those that are interested go to learn more? >> So horizonthree.ai is the website. That's a great starting point. We tend to very much rely on social channels, so LinkedIn in particular, to really get our stories out there. So finding us on LinkedIn is probably the next best thing to go do. And we're always at the major trade shows and events also. >> Excellent. Snehal, it's been a pleasure talking to you about Horizon3, what it is that you guys are doing, why, and the greater vision. We appreciate your insights and your time. >> Thank you, likewise. >> All right. For my guest, I'm Lisa Martin. We want to thank you for watching the AWS Startup Showcase. We'll see you next time. (gentle music)

>>Hey everyone. Welcome to the Cube's presentation of the AWS startup showcase. Season two, episode four, I'm your host. Lisa Martin. This topic is cybersecurity detect and protect against threats. Very excited to welcome a Cub alumni back to the program. SNA hall, autonomy, the co-founder and CEO of horizon three joins me SNA hall. It's great to have you back in the studio. >>Likewise, thanks for the invite. >>Tell us a little bit about horizon three. What is it that you guys do you we're founded in 2019? Got a really interesting group of folks with interesting backgrounds, but talk to the audience about what it is that you guys are aiming to do. >>Sure. So maybe back to the problem we were trying to solve. So my background, I was a engineer by trade. I was a CIO at G capital CTO at Splunk and helped, helped grows scale that company and then took a break from industry to serve within the department of defense. And in every one of my jobs where I had cyber security in my responsibility, I suffered from the same problem. I had no idea I was secure or that we were fixing the right vulnerabilities or logging the right data in Splunk or that our tools and processes and people worked together well until the bad guys had showed up. And by then it was too late. And what I wanted to do was proactively verify my security posture, make sure that my security tools were actually effective, that my people knew how to respond to a breach before the bad guys were there. And so this whole idea of continuously verifying my security posture through security testing and pen testing became a, a passion project of mine for over a decade. And I, through my time in the DOD found the right group of an early people that had offensive cyber experience that had defensive cyber experience that knew how to build and ship and, and deliver software at scale. And we came together at the end of 2019 to start horizon three. >>Talk to me about the current threat landscape. We've seen so much change in flux in the last couple of years globally. We've seen, you know, the threat actors are just getting more and more sophisticated as is the different types of attacks. What are you seeing kind of horizontally across the threat landscape? >>Yeah. The biggest thing is attackers don't have to hack in using zero days. Like you see in the movies. Often they're able to just log in with valid credentials that they've collected through some mechanism. As an example, if I wanted to compromise a large organization, say United airlines, one of the things that an attacker's gonna go off and do is go to LinkedIn and find all of the employees that work at United airlines. Now you've got, say 7,000 pilots of those pilots. You're gonna figure out quickly that their use varie and passwords or their use varie@leastarefirstnamelastinitialatunited.com. Cool. Now I have 7,000 potential logins and all it takes is one of them to reuse a compromise password for their corporate email. And now you've got an initial user in the system and most likely that initial user has local admin on their laptops. And from there, an attacker can dump credentials and find a path to becoming a domain administrator. >>And what happens oftentimes is security tools. Don't detect this because it looks like valid behavior in the organization. And this is pretty common. This idea of collecting information on an organization or a topic or target using open source intelligence, using a mix of credentialed spraying and kinda low priority or low severity exploitations or misconfigurations to get in. And then from there systematically dumping credentials, reusing those credentials and finding a path towards compromise and almost less than 2% of, of CVEs are actually used in exploits. Most of the time attackers chain together misconfigurations bad product defaults. And so really the threat landscape is attackers don't hack in. They log in and organizations have to focus on getting the basics right and fundamentals right first, before they layer on some magic, easy button that is some security AI tools hoping that that's gonna save their day. And that's what we found systemically across the board. >>So you're finding that across the board, probably pan industry, that, that a lot of companies need to go back to basics. We talk about that a lot when we're talking about security, why do you think that >>Is? I think it's because one, most organizations are barely treading water. When you look at the early rapid adopters of horizon threes, pen testing, product, autonomous pen testing, the early adopters tended to be teams where the it team and the security team were the same person and they were barely treading water. And the hardest part of my job as a CIO was deciding what not to fix because the bottleneck in the security processes, the actual capacity to fix problems. And so fiercely prioritizing issues becomes really important, but the, the tools and the processes don't focus on prioritizing what's exploitable, they prioritize, you know, by some arbitrary score from some arbitrary vulnerability scanner. And so we have as a fundamental breakdown of the small group of folks with the expertise to fix problems, tend to be the most overworked and tend to have the most noise to need to sift through. So they don't even have time to get to the basics. They're just barely treading water doing their day jobs. And they're often sacrificing their nights and weekends. All of us at horizon three were practitioners at one point in our career, we've all been called in on the weekend. So that's why, what we did was fiercely focus on helping customers and users fix problems that truly matter, and allowing them to quickly retack and verify that the problems were truly fixed. >>So when it comes to today's threat landscape, what is it that organizations across the board should really be focused on? >>I think systemically what we see are bad password or credential policies, least access, privileged management type processes, not being well implemented. The domain user tends to be the local admin on the box, no ability to understand what is a valid login versus a, a malicious login. Those are some of the basics that we see systemically. And if you layer that with, it's very easy to say misconfigure vCenter, or misconfigure a piece of Cisco gear, or you're not gonna be installing monitoring and OB observa security observability tools on that. HP integrated lights out server. And so on. What you'll find is that you've got people overworked that don't have the capacity to fix. You have the fundamentals or the basics, not, not well implemented. And you have a whole bunch of blind spots in your security posture, and defenders have to be right. Every time attackers only have to be right once. And so what we have is this asymmetric fight where attackers are very likely to get in. And we see this on the news all the time. >>So, and, and nobody of course wants to be the next headline. Right? Talk to me a little bit about autonomous pen testing as a service, what you guys are delivering and what makes it unique and different than other tools that have been out there as, as you're saying that clearly have >>Gaps. Yeah. So first and foremost was the approach we took in building our product. What we set up front was our primary users should be it administrators, network, engineers, and P. And that, that it intern who in three clicks should have the power of a 20 year pen testing expert. So the whole idea was empower and enable all of the fixers to find, fix in verify their security weaknesses continuously. That was the design goal. Most other security products are designed for security people, but we already know they're they're task saturated. They've got way too many tools under the belt. So first and foremost, we wanted to empower the fixers to fix problems. That truly matter, the second part was we wanted to do that without having to install credentialed agents all over the place or writing your own custom attack scripts, or having to do a bunch of configurations and make sure that it's safe to run against production systems so that you could, you could test your entire attack surface your on-prem, your cloud, your external perimeter. >>And this is where AWS comes in to be very important, especially hybrid customers where you've got a portion of your infrastructure on AWS, a portion on-prem and you use horizon three to be able to attack your complete attack surface. So we can start on Preem and we will find, say the AWS credentials file that was mistakenly saved on a, a share drive, and then reuse that to become admin in the cloud. AWS didn't do anything wrong. The cloud team didn't do anything wrong. A developer happened to share a password or save a password file locally. That's how attackers get in. So we can start from on-prem and show how we can compromise the cloud, start from the cloud and, and, and show how we can compromise. On-prem start from the outside and break in. And we're able to show that complete attack surface at scale for hybrid customers. >>So showing that complete attack surface sort of from the eyes of the attacker, >>That's exactly right, because while blue teams or the defenders have a very specific view of their environment, you have to look at yourself through the eyes of the attacker to understand what are your blind spots? What do do they see that you don't see? And it's actually a discipline that is well entrenched within military culture. And that's also important for us as the company. We're about a third of horizon, three served in us special operations or the intelligence community with the United States, and then do OD writ large. And a lot of that red team mindset view yourself through the eyes of the attacker and this idea of training. Like you fight in building muscle memories. So you know how to react to the real incident when it occurs is just ingrained in how we operate. And we disseminate that culture through all of our customers as well. >>And, and at this point in time, it's, every business needs to assume an attacker's gonna get in >>That's right. There are way too many doors and windows in the organization. Attackers are going to get in, whether it's a single customer that reused their Netflix password for their corporate email, a patch that didn't get applied properly, or a new zero day that just gets published a piece of Cisco software that was misconfigured, you know, not by anything more than it's easy to misconfigure. These complex pieces of technology attackers are going to get in. And what we want to understand as customers is once they're in, what could they do? Could they get to my crown Jewel's data and systems? Could they borrow and prepare for a much more complicated attack down the road? If you assume breach, now you wanna understand what can they get to, how quickly can you detect that breach and what are your ways to stifle their ability to achieve their objectives. And culturally, we would need a shift from talking about how secure I am to how defensible are we. Security is kind of a state, a point in time, state of your organization, defense ability is how quickly you can adapt to the attacker to stifle their ability to achieve their objective >>As things are changing >>Constantly. That's exactly right. >>Yeah. Talk to me about a typical customer engagement. If there's, you mentioned folks treading water, obviously there's the huge cybersecurity skills gap that we've been talking about for a long time. Now that's another factor there, but when you're in customer conversations, who were you talking to? What typically are, what are they coming to you for help? >>Yeah. One big thing is you're not gonna win and, and win a customer by taking 'em out to steak dinners. Not anymore. The way we focus on, on our go to market and our sales motion is cultivating champions. At the end of the proof of concept, our internal measure of successes is that person willing to get a horizon three tattoo. And you do that, not through state dinners, not through cool swag, not through marketing, but by letting your results do the talking. Now, part of those results should not require professional services or consulting it. The whole experience should be self-service frictionless and insightful. And that really is how we've designed the product and designed the entire sales motion. So a prospect will learn or discover about us, whether it's through LinkedIn, through social, through the website, but often because one of their friends or colleagues heard about us saw our result and is advocating on our behalf. >>When we're not in the room from there, they're gonna be able to self-service just log to our product through their LinkedIn ID, their Google ID. They can engage with a salesperson if they want to, they can run a pen test right there on the spot against their home, without any interaction with a sales rep, let those results do the talking, use that as a starting point to engage in a, in a more complicated proof of value. And the whole idea is we don't charge for these. We let our results do the talking. And at the end, after they've run us to find problems they've gone off and fixed those issues. And they've rerun us to verify that what they've fixed was properly fixed, then they're hooked. And we have a hundred percent technical win rate with our prospects when they hit that fine fix verify cycle, which is awesome. And then we get the tattoo for them, at least give them the template. And then we're off to the races >>That it sounds like you're making the process more simple. There's so much complexity behind it, but allowing users to be able to actually test it out themselves in a, in a simplified way is huge. Allowing them to really focus on becoming defensible. >>That's exactly right. And you know, the value is we're all, especially now in security, there's so much hype and so much noise. There's a lot more time being spent, self discovering and researching technologies before you engage in a commercial discussion. And so what we try to do is optimize that entire buying experience around enabling people to discover and research and learn the other part, right. Remember is offensive cyber and ethical hacking. And so on is very mysterious and magical to most defenders. It's such a complicated topic with many nuance tools that they don't have the time to understand or learn. And so if you surface the complexity of all those attacker tools, you're gonna overwhelm a person that is already overwhelmed. So we needed the, the experience to be incredibly simple and, and optimize that fine fix verify aha moment. And once again, be frictionless and be insightful, >>Frictionless and insightful. Excellent. Talk to me about results. You mentioned results. We, we love talking about outcomes. When a customer goes through the, the POC POB that you talked about, what are some of the results that they see that hook them? >>Yeah. The biggest thing is what attackers do today is they will find a low from machine one, plus a low from machine two equals compromised domain. What they're doing is they're chaining together issues across multiple parts of your system or your organization to hone your environment. What attackers don't do is find a critical vulnerability and exploit that single machine it's always a chain is always, always multiple steps in the attack. And so the entire product and experience in actually our underlying tech is around attack pads. Here is the path, the attack path an attacker could have taken. You know, that node zero, our product took here is the proof of exploitation for every step along the way. So, you know, this isn't a false positive, in fact, you can copy and paste the attacker command from the product and rerun it yourself and see it for yourself. >>And then here is exactly what you have to go fix and why it's important to fix. So that path proof impact and fix action is what the entire experience is focused on. And that is the results doing the talking, because remember, these folks are already overwhelmed. They're dealing with a lot of false positives. And if you tell them you've got another critical to fix their immediate reaction is Nope. I don't believe you. This is a false positive. I've seen this plenty of times. That's not important. So you have to in your product experience in sales process and adoption process immediately cut through that defensive or that reflex and its path proof impact. Here's exactly what you fix here are the exact steps to fix it. And then you're off to the races. What I learned at Splunk was you win hearts and minds of your users through amazing experience, product experience, amazing documentation, yes, and a vibrant community of champions. Those are the three ingredients of success, and we've really made that the core of the product. So we win on our documentation. We win on the product experience and we've cultivated pretty awesome community. >>Talk to me about some of those champions. Is there a customer story that you think really articulates the value of no zero and what it is that, that you are doing? Yeah. >>I'll tell you a couple. Actually, I just gave this talk at black hat on war stories from running 10,000 pen tests. And I'll try to be gentle on the vendors that were involved here, but the reality is you gotta be honest and authentic. So a customer, a healthcare organization ran a pen test and they were using a very well known, managed security services provider as their, as their security operations team. And so they initiate the pen test and they were, they wanted to audit their response time of their MSSP. So they run the pen test and we're in and out. The whole pen test runs two hours or less. And in those two hours, the pen test compromises, the domain gets access to a bunch of sensitive data. Laterally, maneuvers rips the entire entire environment apart. It took seven hours for the MSSP to send an email notification to the it director that said, Hey, we think something's suspicious is wow. Seven hours. That's >>A long time >>We were in and out in two, seven hours for notification. And the issue with that healthcare company was they thought they had hired the right MSSP, but they had no way to audit their performance. And so we gave them the, the details and the ammunition to get services credits to hold them accountable and also have a conversation of switching to somebody else. >>That accountability is key, especially when we're talking about the, the threat landscape and how it's evolving day to day. That's >>Exactly right. Accountability of your suppliers or, or your security vendors, accountability of your people and your processes, and not having to wait for the bad guys to show up, to test your posture. That's, what's really important. Another story is interesting. This customer did everything right. It was a banking customer, large environment, and they had Ford net installed as their, as their EDR type platform. And they, they initiate us as a pen test and we're able to get code execution on one of their machines. And from there laterally maneuver to become a domain administrator, which insecurity is a really big deal. So they came back and said, this is absolutely not possible. Ford net should have stopped that from occurring. And it turned out because we showed the path and the proof and the impact Forder net was misconfigured on three machines out of 5,000. And they had no idea. Wow. So it's one of those you wanna don't trust that your tools are working. Don't trust your processes. Verify them, show me we're secure today. Show me we're secured tomorrow. And then show me again, we're secure next week, because my environment's constantly changing. And the, and the adversary always has a vote, >>Right? The, the constant change in flux is, is huge challenge for organizations, but those results clearly speak for themselves. You, you talked about the speed in terms of time, how quickly can a customer deploy your technology, identify and remedy problems in their environment. >>Yeah. You know, this fine fix verify aha moment. If you will. So traditionally a customer would have to maybe run one or two pen tests a year and then they'd go off and fix things. They have no capacity to test them cuz they don't have the internal attack expertise. So they'd wait for the next pen test and figure out that they were still exploitable. Usually this year's pen test results look identical the last years that isn't sustainable. So our customers shift from running one or two pen tests a year to 40 pen tests a month. And they're in this constant loop of finding, fixing and verifying all of the weaknesses in their infrastructure. Remember there's infrastructure, pen testing, which is what we are really good at. And then there's application level pen testing that humans are much better at solving. Okay. So we focus on the infrastructure side, especially at scale, but can you imagine so 40 pen tests a month, they run from the perimeter, the inside from a specific subnet from work from home machines, from the cloud. And they're running these pen tests from many different perspectives to understand what does the attacker see from each of these locations in their organization and how do they systemically fix those issues? And what they look at is how many critical problems were found, how quickly were they fixed? How often do they reoccur? And that third metric is important because you might fix something. But if it shows up again next week, because you've got bad automation, you're not gonna you're in a rat race. So you wanna look at that reoccurrence rate also >>The recurrence rate. What are you most excited about as obviously the threat landscape continues to evolve, but what are you most excited about for the company and what it is that you're able to help organizations across industries achieve in such tumultuous times? Yeah. You >>Know, one of the coolest things is back because I was a customer for many of these products, I, I despised threat intelligence products. I despised them because they were basically generic blog posts maybe delivered as a, as a, as a data feed to my Splunk environment or something. But they're always really generic. Like you may have a problem here. And as a result, they weren't very actionable. So one of the really cool things that we do, it's just part of the product is this concept of, of flares flares that we shoot up. And the idea is not to be, to cause angst or anxiety or panic, but rather we look at threat intelligence and then because all, all the insights we have from your pen test results, we connect those two together and say your VMware horizon instance at this IP is exploitable. You need to fix it as fast as possible or as very likely to be exploited. >>And here is the threat intelligence and in the news from CSUN elsewhere, that shows why it's important. So I think what is really cool is we're able to take together threat intelligence out in the wild combined with very precise understanding of your environment, to give you very accurate and actionable starting points for what you need to go fix or test or verify. And when we do that, what we see is almost like, imagine this ball bouncing, that is the first drop of the ball. And then that drives the first major pen test. And then they'll run all these subsequent pen tests to continue to find and fix and verify. And so what we see is this tremendous amount of AC excitement from customers that we're actually giving them accurate, detailed information to take advantage of, and we're not causing panic and we're not causing alert, fatigue as a result. >>That's incredibly important in this type of environment. Last question for you. If, if autonomous pen testing is obviously critical and has tremendous amount of potential for organizations, but it's not, it's only part of the equation. What's the larger vision. >>Yeah. You know, we are not a pen testing company and that's something we decided upfront. Pen testing is a sensor. It collects and understands a tremendous amount of data for your attack surface. So the natural next thing is to analyze the pen test results over time, to start to give you a more accurate understanding of your governance risk and compliance posture. So now what happens is we are able to allow customers to go run 40 pen tests a month. And that kind of becomes the, the initial land or flagship product. But then from there we're able to upsell or increase value to our customers and start to compete and take out companies like security scorecard or risk IQ and other companies like that, where there tended to be. I was a user of all those tools, a lot of garbage in garbage out, okay, where you can't fill out a spreadsheet and get an accurate understanding of your risk posture. You need to look at your detailed pen, test results over time and use that to accurately understand what are your hotspots, what's your recurrence rate and so on. And being able to tell that story to your auditors, to your regulators, to the board. And actually it gives you a much more accurate way to show return on investment of your security spend also, which >>Is huge. So where can customers and, and those that are interested go to learn more. >>So horizon three.ai is the website. That's a great starting point. We tend to very much rely on social channels. So LinkedIn in particular to really get our stories out there. So finding us on LinkedIn is probably the next best thing to go do. And we're always at the major trade shows and events also. >>Excellent SNA. It's been a pleasure talking to you about horizon three. What it is that you guys are doing, why and the greater vision we appreciate your insights and your time. >>Thank you, likewise. >>All right. For my guest. I'm Lisa Martin. We wanna thank you for watching the AWS startup showcase. We'll see you next time.

(theme music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone, theCUBE's live coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts for AWS re:Inforce '22. Big show for ground security, Amazon re:Invent's coming up. That's the big event of all time for AWS. re:MARS was another one, re:Inforce, the re:Shows, they call them, theCUBE's got you covered. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE with Dave Vellante, who's in an analyst session right now. He'll be back shortly. We've got 2 great guests from an amazing company, HackerOne, been on theCUBE many times, (mumbles) Marten Mickos, of course, a big time, (mumbles) We got two great guests. Sean Ryan, Sr. Principal Product Marketing Manager Will Kapcio, Senior Sales Engineer. Gents, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us John. >> So Marten's been on many times, he's such a character. He's such a legend. >> Yeah. >> Your company has had great traction, great community, just this phenomenal example of community meets technology and problem solver. >> Yeah. >> He's been part of that organization. Here at re:Inforce they're just kind of getting wind of it now, right? You hear an open, teamwork, breaking down the silos, a big theme is this whole idea of open community, but yet be hardcore with the security. It's been a big part of the re:Inforce. What do you guys think of the show so far? >> Loving it. Partly too, we're both local here in the Boston area. So the commute was pretty nice. (everyone laughs) And the heat wave broke the other day so that's wonderful, but yeah, great show. It's good to be back in person doing this kind of stuff and just, it's really lively. You get a lot of good energy. We've had a bunch of people stopping by trying to learn what we're all about and so, it's really fun. Great show so far. >> And you guys have a great company. Take a minute to explain for the folks who may not know HackerOne. Tell them what you guys do real quick in one minute. >> Okay, the quick elevator pitch. (chuckles) So really we're making the internet safer using a community of ethical hackers. And so our platform enables that so we can skill match the best talent that's out there around the world to help find all the vulnerabilities that your company needs to discover. So you can plug those holes and keep yourself safe. >> So in an era of a talent gap, Will, you know the technologies out there, but sometimes the skills are not there. So you guys can feel the void kind of a crowdsourced vibe, right? >> Yeah, exactly. If you're trying to build a security program, and apply defense in depth, we offer a terrific way to engage additional security talent either because you can't hire enough or your team is simply overloaded, too much to do, so. >> Hackers like to be a little bit, white hat hackers like to be independent, might want some flexibility in their schedule, live around the world. >> Yes. No question for hackers that do it full time, that do it part-time and then everything in between. >> Well, you guys are in the middle here with some real products. So talk about what's going on here. How vulnerable are the surface areas in organizations that you're seeing? >> Yeah, probably more so than you would think. So we ran a survey earlier this year, 800 security and IT professionals across North America and Europe. And one of the findings from that survey was that nearly a third, actually over a third, 37% of the attack surfaces, not secured. Some of it's not even known. They don't know what they don't know. They just have this entire area. And you can imagine, I mean there's a lot of reasons you know, real legitimate reasons that this happens. One of those really being that we don't know what we don't know. We haven't scanned our attack surface. >> And also it's about a decade of no perimeter anymore. >> Yes. >> Welcome to the cloud. >> For sure. Absolutely. And people are moving quick, right? You know, the Cloud perfect example. Cloud people are building new applications on top of these new underlying configurations happening on a constant basis. Acquisitions, you know, that's just a fast moving thing. Nobody can keep track of it. There's a lot of different skill sets you need you know. And yeah, skill shortage out there too. As we talked about. >> What's the attacker solution you guys have? You guys have this HackerOne attack resistance component, what's that about? >> That's right. So that is to solve what we call the attack resistance gap. So that area that's not protected, hasn't been secured, on top of just not knowing what those assets are, or how vulnerable they are. The other thing that happens is people are sort of doing status quo testing, or they're not able to keep up with effective testing. So scanners are great. They can catch common vulnerabilities, but they're not going to catch those really hard to find vulnerabilities. The thing that the really sophisticated attackers are going to go after. >> Yeah. >> So we use... This large community that we have of ethical hackers around the world to be able to skill match them and get them doing bug bounties, doing pen tests, really bulletproofing the organization, and helping them risk-rank what they find. >> Yeah. >> Triage these, do the retesting, you know, get it very secure. So that's how we do it on a high level. Will, you might have a-- >> Yeah. I mean there's a tremendous amount of automation out there, right? But you can't quite at least not yet replace critical thinking. >> Yeah. >> From smart security minds. So HackerOne has a number of solutions where we can apply those minds in different ways at different parts of the software life cycle at different cadences, to fit our customers' needs, to fit their security needs, and make sure that there's more complete human coverage throughout their software lifecycle, and not just automation. >> Yeah. I think that's a great point, Will and Sean, because you think about open source is like not only grown significantly, it's like's it is the software industry. If you believe that, which I do. Open source is there it's all software free. The integration is creating a DevOps movement that's going the whole level. So Devs are doing great. They're pumping out codes. In fact, I heard a quote here on theCUBE earlier this morning from the CTO Sequence Security that said: "Shift left but shield right." So shifting left is build your security into the code, but still you got to have a shield. You guys have this shielding capability with your attack module management service. So you now you got the Devs thinking: "I got to get better security native" So but they're pumping out so much code. >> Yep. >> There's more use cases, so there's going to be code reviews needed for stuff that she said, "What is this? We got to code review new stuff. A developer created something." >> Yes. >> I mean, that's what happened. That's what's going on everywhere, right? >> Exactly. We often hear that for every 100 developers, you've got one security professional. (John laughs) You know, talk about skill shortage that's just not sustainable. How are you going to keep up with that? >> Yeah. >> So-- >> Your phone is ringing off the hook. There's no phones anymore, but like technically-- >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, you know, yeah, you need to go external find some experts who can help you figure that out, and keep up with that cadence, you know keeps going and going. >> So, HackerOne. I love the ethical thing. I mean, you know, I'm a big fan. Everyone who watches theCUBE knows I'm a big fan of Marten and your company, but it's not just bug bounties that you do. That's just people think of, they see that in the news. "Oh, I made a million dollars from saving Microsoft teams from being exploited" or something like that, or weird things big numbers. But you do more than that. There's code reviews, there's assessments, like a variety of different things, right? >> Yes, exactly. Exactly. >> What are the hottest areas? >> Yeah, I mean, that's exactly why we coined the term, Attack Resistance Management really is to help describe all those areas that we cover, so you're right, bug bounty is our flagship product. It's what we're best known for. And it's a terrific solution. But on top of that, we're able to layer things like vulnerability disclosure, pen testing and code review. >> Pen test is actually really important-- >> Attack surface management, you know, a whole suite of complimentary offerings to help you engage these hackers in new and interesting ways. >> Yeah. >> The bug bounty is very popular because it's fun. >> Yeah. >> I mean if your going to work on something... It's fun for the hackers but the white hat hackers, the companies they can see where's my bugs it's the fear of missing out and the fear of getting screwed over. That's the biggest driver, right, you Know-- >> Yes, definitely and we now have a product called assets. So this is attack surface management. And what we're able to do with that is bring that in leverage the ethical hackers to risk-rank. What's your assets out there? How vulnerable are these? What's critical? Feed that in, and then you know, as Will was saying we've got all kinds of different testing options. Sometimes bug bounty continuous that works. Sometimes you want pen test, you know, you want it bound. >> Well, the thing about the thing about the pen test, well the soccer report, Amazon's got soccer reports but pen test is a moving train. >> Yeah >> Cause if you're pushing new code, you got to pen test it all the time. It's not a one and done. >> Exactly. >> You got to keep it running. Just one and run, right? >> You can't do the old school penetration test once a year, big monolithic thing. You know, this is just a check the box for compliances like, no, you need to be focusing this on the assets that you're releasing, which are constantly changing. And doing ongoing smaller cadences of pen testing. >> I had someone at a conference had a few cocktails in them, confessed to me, that they forged a pen test report. >> Oh man. >> Wow! (everyone laughs) >> Because he's like, "Oh! It was three months ago. Don't Worry about it." Like, but a lot can happen in three months. No, this is reality, they are like, "I can't turn it around fast enough" They had an Apsec review... >> Yeah. >> In their company and... >> And that's it. >> I mean, I'm not saying everyone's doing bad behavior, but like people can look the other way that creates more vulnerabilities. >> It can happen. And even just that time space. Let's say you're only doing a pen test once a year or once every two years. That's a long time. It's a lot of dwell time, you can have an attacker inside mulling around your network. >> All right. So we get a big service here. This one, AWS, we're here at re:Inforce the trend that you see Amazon getting closer to the ecosystem, lot more integration. How are you guys taking HackerOne's attack surface area product management software, closer to Amazon? What's going involved? Because at the end of the day they're enabling a lot of value and their partners are growing and becoming platforms within of themselves. What is the connection with Amazon? Keeping those apps running? How do you guys do that? >> Yeah. So we've got a specific assessment type for AWS. So... On the one hand, we're bringing in the right group of ethical hack hackers who are AWS certified. They have the right skillset, we're matching them. We've got the right assessment type for them to be able to track against and find the right vulnerabilities, report on those. So this is our pen test offering geared particularly towards the AWS platform. And then we also have an AWS security hub integration. So if customers are using the AWS security hub, we can plug into that, feed that information. And that gets more to it, the defense and depth for your AWS. >> And you guys verify all the ethical hackers? Everything's verified? >> Oh yes, absolutely. Fully. >> Yep. So they're verified for their pen testing experience, and skills and of course their AWS skills in particular. And their work experience, making sure that it's long enough that it's good, background check, the whole nine, so. >> How far has Amazon come from your perspective, over the past few years with the security partnerships? I mean their services have grown every year. I mean, every Amazon re:Invent, thousands of new announcements, new services. I mean if they update the DNS server, it's a new thing. Right? So like everything's happening. >> Yeah. >> What's different now? >> It's great to see. I mean, you look around at how many different types of security solutions there are here how many different types of partners, and it just shows you that defense in depth again, it's a really critical thing. Been a wonderful partner for us. I mean that, they're a big fan of us. They tell us that all the time. >> Yeah, 'cause the customers use you. >> Cause they're customers too. Right. Exactly. Exactly. But no, it's, it's been great. So we're looking at, we've got some things on the roadmap, some continued integrations that we look forward to doing with AWS, but you know, again it's a great powerful platform. It gives customers a lot of freedom, but with that freedom comes the responsibility that's needed to actually-- >> Will, what's your take? We hear hybrid security keys, management systems, announced today, encrypt everything, don't have over permissive environments. Obviously they're talking about more platform and that type of stuff >> Absolutely. My take would be, I think our own partnership with the AWS security team is great evidence that they're thinking about the right things. We worked within conjunction with them to develop our pen test methodology. So that combined for proprietary HackerOne platform data and findings across all of our customers that are common issues found in AWS environments with their own knowledge and their own experiences from the AWS security team directly. So it's a pretty powerful checklist that we're able to run through on some of these customers and make sure that all of the most common miss-configurations and such are covered. >> Yeah. They're highly motivated to do that. 'Cause they get blamed for the S3 buckets being kept open. It's not even their fault. >> Right. (crosstalk) >> We got hack over in Amazon. Amazon's terrible! >> Yeah. You know, one of the things we like to talk about is the fact that, you know, cloud is really about automation, right? >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> But you can't automate that human ingenuity the skills that come with an actual human who has the experience and the know how to fix these things. >> It's a lot going on in Amazon. It's always been kind of like, you just described earlier in theCUBE. An erector set, not Lego blocks yet, but still kind of, you still got to build it. It's getting better in the Lego model, but there are challenges in protecting cloud, Will. I mean this is a big part of protecting cloud platforms like AWS. What are some of those challenges? >> I think some of the challenges are the ephemeral nature of the cloud can really result in developers, and you know really business units across an organization spinning up assets that IT or security don't know about. And so that's where things like HackerOne assets in those attack surface management style solutions come into play, trying to identify those assets proactively and make sure that they're receiving some sort of attention from the security team whether it's automated or manual or ideally both. >> You guys got a good solution. So how about the partnership? We got one minute left. Talk about your partnership with AWS. You guys are certified in their security group, with their team and marketplace, right? Talk about some of those things. >> Yeah, we've been in marketplace over a year. We've had that the specific solution that I mentioned the App Pen test for AWS in place and integrated with security hub for some time now. There's some other stats that we could probably share around the ethical hackers that we have working on that. We have a number of certified AWS hackers, who again they have the right skill set for AWS, and they've been a great partner. We are very focused on continuing to work with them, and build out some new offerings going forward. >> Well, you guys have done a great job. Will, tell your team congratulations on the tech side, on the product side, very strong community. You guys had a lot of success. Congratulations! And thanks for sharing on theCUBE, appreciate it. >> Thanks for having us John. >> Thank you for your time-- We're here at re:Inforce where all the access tab is open, it's team oriented, we got cloud scale, data, encryption on everything. Big news coming out of re:Inforce, well, theCUBE's got it covered here. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. We'll be right back with more coverage after this short break. (theme music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban cloud brought to you by silicon angle. Welcome to the cubes event. Virtual event. Cuban Cloud. I'm John for your host. We're here talking to all the thought leaders getting all the stories around Cloud What's going on this year and next today, Tomorrow and the future. We gotta featured startup here. Jonah Clipper, who is the CEO and founder of Stack Hawks. Developing security software for developers to have them put security baked in from the beginning. Johnny, thanks for coming on and being featured. Start up here is part of our Cuban cloud. Thanks for joining. >>Thanks so much for having me, John. >>So one of our themes this year is obviously Cloud natives gone mainstream. The pandemic has shown that. You know, a lot of things have to be modern. Modern applications, the emerald all they talked about modern applications. Infrastructure is code. Reinvent, um is here. They're talking about the next gen enterprise. Their public cloud. Now you've got hybrid cloud. Now you've got multi cloud. But for developers, you just wanna be building security baked in and they don't care where the infrastructure is. So this is the big trend. Like to get your thoughts on that. But before we jump in, tell us about Stack Hawk What you guys do your founded in 2019. Tell us about your company and what Your mission is >>Awesome. Yeah, our mission is to put application security in the hands of software developers so that they can find and fix upset books before they deployed a production. And we do that through a dynamic application scanning capability. Uh, that's deployable via docker, so engineers can run it locally. They can run it in C I C. D. On every single PR or merge and find bugs in the process of delivering software rather than after it's been production. >>So everyone's talking about shift left, shift left for >>security. What does >>that mean? Uh, these days. And what if some of the hurdles that people are struggling with because all I hear is shift left shift left from, like I mean, what does What does that actually mean? Now, Can you take us through your >>view? Yes, and we use the phrase a lot, and I and I know it can feel a little confusing or overused. Probably. Um, When I think of shift left, I think of that Mobius that we all look at all of the time, Um, and how we deliver and, like, plan, write code, deliver software and then manage it. Monitor it right like that entire Dev ops workflow. And today, when we think about where security lives, it either is a blocker to deploying production. Or most commonly, it lives long after code has been deployed to production. And there's a security team constantly playing catch up, trying to ensure that the development team whose job is to deliver value to their customers quickly, right, deploy as fast as we can, as many great customer facing features, um there, then, looking at it months after software has been deployed and then hurrying and trying to assess where the bugs are. And, um, trying to get that information back to software developers so that they can fix those issues. Shifting left to me means software engineers are finding those bugs as their writing code or in the CIA CD pipeline long before code has been deployed to production. >>And so you guys attack that problem right there so they don't have to ship the code and then come back and fix it again. Or where we forgot what the hell is going on. That point in time some Q 18 gets it. Is that the kind of problem that that's out there? Is that the main pain point? >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean a lot of the way software, specifically software like ours and dynamic applications scanning works is a security team or a pen tester. Maybe, is assessing applications for security vulnerability these, um, veteran prod that's normally where these tools are run and they throw them back over the wall, you know, interrupting sprints and interrupting the developer workflow. So there's a ton of context switching, which is super expensive, and it's very disruptive to the business to not know about those issues before they're in prod. And they're also higher risk issues because they're in fraud s. So you have to be able to see a >>wrong flywheel. Basically, it's like you have a penetration test is okay. I want to do ship this app. Pen test comes back, okay? We gotta fix the bug, interrupts the cycle. They're not coding there in fire drill mode. And then it's a chaotic death spiral at that point, >>right? Or nothing gets done. God, how did >>you What was the vision? How did you get here? What? How did you start? The company's woke up one morning. Seven started a security company. And how did what was the journey? What got you here? >>Sure. Thanks. I've been building software for software engineers since 2010. So the first startup I worked for was very much about making it easy for software engineers to deploy and manage applications super efficiently on any cloud provider. And we did programmatic updates to those applications and could even move them from cloud to cloud. And so that was sort of cutting my teeth and technology and really understanding the developer experience. Then I was a VP of product at a company called Victor Ops. We were purchased by spunk in 2018. But that product was really about empowering software engineers to manage their own code in production. So instead of having a network operations center right who sat in front of screens and was waiting for something to go wrong and would then just end up dialing there, you know, just this middle man trying to dial to find the person who wrote the software so that they can fix it. We made that way more efficient and could just route issues to software engineers. And so that was a very dev ops focused company in terms of, um, improving meantime to know and meantime to resolve by putting up time in the hands of software engineers where it didn't used to live there before it lived in a more traditional operations type of role. But we deploy software way too quickly and way too frequently to production to assume that another human can just sit there and know how to fix it, because the problems aren't repeatable, right? So So I've been living in the space for a long time, and I would go to conferences and people would say, Well, I love for, you know, we have these digital transformation initiatives and I'm in the security team and I don't feel like I'm part of this. I don't know. I don't know how to insert myself in this process. And so I started doing a lot of research about, um, how we can shift this left. And I was actually doing some research about penetration testing at the time, Um, and found just a ton of opportunity, a ton of problems, right that exist with security and how we do it today. So I really think of this company as a Dev Ops first Company, and it just so happens to be that we're taking security, and we're making it, um, just part of the the application testing framework, right? We're testing for security bugs, just like we would test for any other kind of bucks. >>That's an awesome vision of other great great history there. And thanks for sharing that. I think one of the things that I think this ties into that we have been reporting aggressively on is the movement to Dev Stack Up, Dev, Ops Dev SEC Ops. And you know, just doing an interview with the guy who stood up space force and big space conversation and were essentially riffing on the idea that they have to get modern. It's government, but they got to do more commercial. They're using open source. But the key thing was everything. Software defined. And so, as you move into suffer defined, then they say we want security baked in from the beginning and This is the big kind of like sea level conversation. Bake it in from the beginning, but it's not that easy. And this is where I think it's interesting where you start to think, uh, Dev ops for security because security is broken. So this is a huge trend. It sounds easy to say it baked security in whether it's an i o T edge or multi cloud. There's >>a lot >>of work there. What should people understand when they hear that kind of platitude of? I just baked security and it's really easy. It's not. It's not trivial. What's your thoughts on >>that? It isn't trivial. And in my opinion, there aren't a lot of tools on the market that actually make that very easy. You know, there are some you've had sneak on this program and they're doing an excellent job, really speaking to the developer and being part of that modern software delivery workflow. Um, but because a lot of tools were built to run in production, it makes it really difficult to bake them in from the beginning. And so, you know, I think there are several goals here. One is you make the tooling work so that it works for the software engineer and their workflow. And and there's some different values that we have to consider when its foreign engineer versus when it's for a security person, right? Limit the noise, make it as easy as possible. Um, make sure that we only show the most critical things that are worth an engineer. Stopping what they're doing in terms of building business value and going back and fixing that bugs and then create a way to discuss in triage other issues later outside of the development. Workflow. So you really have to have a lot of empathy and understanding for how software is built and how software engineers behave, I think, in order to get this right. So it's not easy. Um, but we're here and other tools air here. Thio support companies in doing that. >>What's the competitive strategy for you guys going forward? Because there's a big sea change. Now I see an inflection point. Obviously, Cove it highlights. It's not the main reason, but Cloud native has proven it's now gone mainstream kubernetes. You're seeing the big movement there. You're seeing scale be a huge issue. Software defined operations are now being discussed. So I think it's It's a simple moment for this kind of solution. How are you guys going to compete? What's what's the winning strategy? How are you guys gonna compete to win? >>Yeah, so there's two pieces to that one is getting the technology right and making sure that it is a product that developers love. And we put a ton of effort into that because when a software engineer says, Hey, I'd love to use the security product, right? CSOs around the world are going to be like, Yes, please. Did a software engineer just ask me, You have the security product. Thank you, Right. We're here to make it so easy for them and get the tech right. And then the other piece, in terms of being competitive, is the business model. There were something like, I don't You would know better than me, but I think the data point I last saw was like 1300 venture backed security companies since 2012 focused on selling to see SOS and Fortune 2000 companies. It is a mess. It's so noisy, nobody can figure out what anybody actually does. What we have done is said no, we're going to take a modern business model approach to security. So you know, it's a SAS platform that makes it super easy for a software engineer or anybody on the team to try and buy the software. So 14 day trial. You don't have to talk to anybody if you don't want Thio Awesome support to make sure that people can get on boarded and with our on boarding flow, we've seen that our customers go from signing up to first successful scan of their platform or whatever app they chose to scan in a knave ridge of about 10 minutes. The fastest is eight, right? So it's about delivering value to our customers really quickly. And there aren't many companies insecurity on the market today. That do that? >>You know, you mentioned pen test earlier. I I hear that word. Nice shit. And, like, pen test penetration test, as it's called, um, Sock reports. I mean, these are things that are kind of like I got to do that again. I know these people are doing things that are gonna be automated, but one of the things that cloud native has proven as be killer app is integrations because when you build a modern app, it has to integrate with someone else. So there you need these kind of pen tests. You gotta have this kind of code review. And as code, um, is part of, say, a purpose built device where it's an I o T. Edge updates have toe happen. So you need mawr automation. You need more scale around both updating software to, ah, purpose built device or for integration. What's your thoughts in reaction to that? Because this is a riel software challenge from a customer standpoint, because there are too many tools out there and every see so that I talk to says, I just want to get rid of half the tools consolidate down around my clouds that I'm working through my environment and b'more developer oriented, not just purchasing stuff. So you have all this going on? What's your reaction to that? You got the you know, the integration and you've got the software updates on purpose built devices. >>Yeah, I mean, we I make a joke a little bit. That security land is like, you know, acronyms. Dio there are so many types of security that you could choose to implement. And they all have a home and different use cases that are certainly valuable toe organizations. Um, what we like to focus on and what we think is interesting and dynamic application scanning is because it's been hard toe automate dynamic application for especially for modern applications. I think a lot of companies have ignored theon pertuan ity Thio really invest in this capability and what's cool about dynamic. And you were mentioning pen testing. Is that because it's actively attacking your app? It when you get a successful test, it's like a It's like a successful negative test. It's that the test executed, which means that bug is present in your code. And so there's a lot less false positives than in other types of scanning or assessment technologies. Not to say there isn't a home for them. There's a lot of we could we could spend a whole hour kind of breaking down all the different types of bugs that the different tools confined. Um, but we think that if you want to get started developer first, you know there's a lot of great technologies. Pick a couple or one right pick stack hawk pick, sneak and just get started and put it in your developer workflow. So integrations are super important. Um, we have integrations with every C I C. D provider, making it easy to scan your code on every merge or release. And then we also have workflow integrations for software engineers associated with where they want to be doing work and how they want to be interrupted or told about an issue. So, you know, we're very early to market, but right out of the gate, we made sure that we had a slack integration so that scans are running. Or as we're finding new things, it's populating in a specific slack channel for those engineers who work on that part of the app and you're a integration right. If we find issues, we can quickly make tickets and route them and make sure that the right people are working on those issues. Eso That's how I think about sort of the integration piece and just getting started. It's like you can't tackle the whole like every accurate, um, at once like pick something that helps you get started and then continue to build out your program, as you have success. >>A lot of these tools can they get in the hands of developers, and then you kind of win their trust by having functionality. Uh, certainly a winning strategy we've seen. You know, Splunk, you mentioned where you worked for Data Dog and very other tools out there just get started easily. If it's good, it will be used. So I love that strategy. Question. I wanna ask you mentioned Dr earlier. Um, they got a real popular environment, but that speaks to the open source area. How do you see the role of open source playing with you guys? Is that gonna be part of your community outreach? Does the feed into the product? Could you share your vision on how stack hawks engaging and playing an open source? >>Yeah, absolutely. Um So when we started this company, my co founders and I, we sat down and said here, What are the problems? Okay, the world doesn't need a better scanner, right? If you walk the floor of, ah, security, uh, conference. It's like our tool finds a million things and someone else is. My tool finds a million and five things. Right, And that's how they're competing on value. It's really about making it easy to use and put in the pipeline. So we decided not to roll. Our own scanner were based on an open source capability called Zap the Set Attack Proxy. Uh, it is the most the world's most downloaded application scanner. And, uh, actually we just hired the founder of Zap to join the Stack Hawk team, and we're really excited to continue to invest in the open source community. There is a ton of opportunity to grow and sort of galvanize that community. And then the work that we do with our customers and the feedback that we get about the bugs we find if there, ah, false positive or this one's commonly risk accepted, we can go back to the community, which were already doing and saying, Hey, ditch this rule, Nobody likes it or we need to improve this test. Um, so it's a really nice relationship that we have, and we are looking forward to continuing to grow that >>great stuff. You guys are hot. Start of love. The software on security angle again def sec. Cox is gonna be It's gonna be really popular. Can you talk about some of the customer success is What's the What's the feedback from customers? Can you share some of the use cases that you guys are participating in where you're winning? You mentioned developers love it and try It can just give us a couple of use cases and examples. >>Yeah. Ah, few things. Um ah, lot of our customers are already selling on the notion. Like before we even went to G A right. They told all of their customers that they scan for security bugs with every single release. So in really critical, uh, industry is like fintech, right. It's really important that their customers trust that they're taking security seriously, which everybody says they dio. But they show it to their customers by saying here, every single deploy I can show you if there were any new security bugs released with that deploy. So that's really awesome. Other things We've heard our, uh, people being able to deploy really quickly thio the Salesforce marketplace, right? Like if they have toe have a scan to prove that that they can sell on Salesforce, they do that really rapidly. Eso all of that's going really well with our customers. >>How would I wanna How would I be a customer if I was interested in, um, using Stack Hawks say we have some software we wanna stand up, and, uh, it's super grade. And so Amazon Microsoft Marketplace Stairs Force They'll have requirements or say I want to do a deal with an integration they don't want. They want to make sure there's no nothing wrong with the code. This seems to be a common use case. How doe I if I was a customer, get involved or just download software? Um, what's the What's the procurement? What's the consumption side of it looked like, >>Yeah, you just go to Stockholm dot com and you create an account. If you'd like to get started that way so you can have a 14 day free trial. We have extremely extensive documentation, so it's really easy to get set up that way. You should have some familiarity. Or grab a software engineer who has familiarity with a couple of things. So one is how to use Docker, right? So Docker is, ah, deployment mechanism for the scanner. We do that so you can run it anywhere that you would like to, and we don't have to do things like pierce firewalls or other protective measures that you've instrumented on your production environment. You just run it, um, wherever you like in your system. So locally, C I c d So docker is an important thing to understand the way we configure our scanner is through a, um, a file. So if you are getting a scan today, either your security team is doing it or you have a pen tester doing it. Um, the whole like getting ready for that engagement takes a lot of time because the people who are running the tests don't know how the software was built. So the way we think about this is, just ask them. So you just fill out a Yamil file with parameters that tell the scanner what to dio tell it how to authenticate and not log out. Um, feed us an A p. I speak if you want, so weaken super efficiently, scan your app and you can be up and running really quickly, and then that's it. You can work with our team at any time if you need help, and then we have a really efficient procurement process >>in my experience some of the pen tests of firms out there, is it? It's like the house keeping seal of approval. You get it once and then you gotta go back again. Software change, new things come in. And it's like, Wait a minute, what's the new pen test? And then you to write a check or engaged to have enough meeting? I mean, this is the problem. I mean, too many meetings. Do you >>guys solve that problem? Do >>you solve that problem? >>We solve a piece of that problem. So I think you know, part of how I talk about our company is this idea that we live in a world where we deploy software every single day. Yet it seems reasonable that once a year or twice a year, we go get a pen test where human runs readily available, open source software on our product and gives us a like, quite literal. Pdf of issues on. It's like this is so intellectually dishonest, like we deploy all of the time. So here's the thing. Pen tests are important and everybody should do them. But that should not be the introduction to these issues that are also easy to automate and find in your system. So the way we think about how we work with pen testers is, um, run, stack hawk or zapped right in an automated fashion on your system, and then give that, give the configuration and give the most recent results to your pen tester and say, Go find the hard stuff. You shouldn't be cutting checks for $30,000 to a pen tester or something that you could easily meet in your flare up. Klein. You could write the checks for finding finding the hard stuff that's much more difficult to automate. >>I totally agree. Final question. Business model Once I get in, is it a service software and services? A monthly fee? How do you guys make money? >>Yep, it is software as a service, it is. A monthly fee were early to market. So I'm not going to pretend that we have perfectly cracked the pricing. Um, but the way that we think about this is this is a team product for software engineers and for, you know, informed constituents, right? You want a product person in the product. You want a security person in the product? Um, and we also want to incent you to scan your APS And the most modern fashion, which is scanning the smallest amount of http that lives in your app, like in a micro services architecture because it makes a lot easier, is easy to isolate the problems where they live and to fix those issues really quickly. So we bundle team and for a UPS and then we scale within, uh, companies as they add more team. So pen users. 10 APS is 3 99 a month. And as you add software engineers and more applications, we scale within your company that way. >>Awesome. So if you're successful, you pay more, but doesn't matter. You already succeeded, and that's the benefit of by As you go Great stuff. Final question. One more thing. Your vision of the future. What are the biggest challenges you see in the next 24 months? Plus beyond, um, that you're trying to attack? That's a preferred future that you see evolving. What's the vision? >>Yeah, you've touched on this a couple of times in this interview with uh being remote, and the way that we need to build software already has been modernizing, and I feel like every company has a digital transformation initiative, but it has toe happen faster. And along with that, we have to figure out how Thio protect and secure these Moderna Gail. The most important thing that we do the hearts and minds of our support engineers and make it really easy for them to use security capabilities and then continue to growth in the organization. And that's not an easy thing tied off. It's easy change, a different way of being security. But I think we have to get their, uh, in order to prepare the security, uh, in these rapidly deployed and developed applications that our customers expect. >>Awesome. Jodi Clippers, CEO and founder of Stack Hawk. Thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thanks for spending the time featured Startup is part of our Cuban cloud. I'm Sean for your host with silicon angle to Cube. Thanks for watching

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of VM World 2020 brought to you by VM Ware and its ecosystem partners. Hello and welcome back to the cubes. Virtual coverage of VM World 2020 Virtual I'm John for your host of the Cube, our 11th year covering V emeralds. Not in person. It's virtual. I'm with my coast, Dave. A lot, of course. Ah, guest has been on every year since the cubes existed. Sanjay Putin, who is now the chief operating officer for VM Ware Sanjay, Great to see you. It's our 11th years. Virtual. We're not in person. Usually high five are going around. But hey, virtual fist pump, >>virtual pissed bump to you, John and Dave, always a pleasure to talk to you. I give you more than a virtual pistol. Here's a virtual hug. >>Well, so >>great. Back at great. >>Great to have you on. First of all, a lot more people attending the emerald this year because it's virtual again, it doesn't have the face to face. It is a community and technical events, so people do value that face to face. Um, but it is virtually a ton of content, great guests. You guys have a great program here, Very customer centric. Kind of. The theme is, you know, unpredictable future eyes is really what it's all about. We've talked about covert you've been on before. What's going on in your perspective? What's the theme of your main talks? >>Ah, yeah. Thank you, John. It's always a pleasure to talk to you folks. We we felt as we thought, about how we could make this content dynamic. We always want to make it fresh. You know, a virtual show of this kind and program of this kind. We all are becoming experts at many Ted talks or ESPN. Whatever your favorite program is 60 minutes on becoming digital producers of content. So it has to be crisp, and everybody I think was doing this has found ways by which you reduce the content. You know, Pat and I would have normally given 90 minute keynotes on day one and then 90 minutes again on day two. So 180 minutes worth of content were reduced that now into something that is that entire 180 minutes in something that is but 60 minutes. You you get a chance to use as you've seen from the keynote an incredible, incredible, you know, packed array of both announcements from Pat myself. So we really thought about how we could organize this in a way where the content was clear, crisp and compelling. Thekla's piece of it needed also be concise, but then supplemented with hundreds of sessions that were as often as possible, made it a goal that if you're gonna do a break out session that has to be incorporate or lead with the customer, so you'll see not just that we have some incredible sea level speakers from customers that have featured in in our pattern, Mikey notes like John Donahoe, CEO of Nike or Lorry beer C I, a global sea of JPMorgan Chase partner Baba, who is CEO of Zuma Jensen Wang, who is CEO of video. Incredible people. Then we also had some luminaries. We're gonna be talking in our vision track people like in the annuity. I mean, one of the most powerful women the world many years ranked by Fortune magazine, chairman, CEO Pepsi or Bryan Stevenson, the person who start in just mercy. If you watch that movie, he's a really key fighter for social justice and criminal. You know, reform and jails and the incarceration systems. And Malala made an appearance. Do I asked her personally, I got to know her and her dad's and she spoke two years ago. I asked her toe making appearance with us. So it's a really, really exciting until we get to do some creative stuff in terms of digital content this year. >>So on the product side and the momentum side, you have great decisions you guys have made in the past. We covered that with Pat Gelsinger, but the business performance has been very strong with VM. Where, uh, props to you guys, Where does this all tie together for in your mind? Because you have the transformation going on in a highly accelerated rate. You know, cov were not in person, but Cove in 19 has proven, uh, customers that they have to move faster. It's a highly accelerated world, a lot. Lots changing. Multi cloud has been on the radar. You got security. All the things you guys are doing, you got the AI announcements that have been pumping. Thean video thing was pretty solid. That project Monterey. What does the customer walk away from this year and and with VM where? What is the main theme? What what's their call to action? What's what do they need to be doing? >>I think there's sort of three things we would encourage customers to really think about. Number one is, as they think about everything in infrastructure, serves APS as they think about their APS. We want them to really push the frontier of how they modernize their athletic applications. And we think that whole initiative off how you modernized applications driven by containers. You know, 20 years ago when I was a developer coming out of college C, C plus, plus Java and then emerge, these companies have worked on J two ee frameworks. Web Logic, Be Aware logic and IBM Web Street. It made the development off. Whatever is e commerce applications of portals? Whatever was in the late nineties, early two thousands much, much easier. That entire world has gotten even easier and much more Micro service based now with containers. We've been talking about kubernetes for a while, but now we've become the leading enterprise, contain a platform making some incredible investments, but we want to not just broaden this platform. We simplified. It is You've heard everything in the end. What works in threes, right? It's sort of like almost t shirt sizing small, medium, large. So we now have tens Ooh, in the standard. The advanced the enterprise editions with lots of packaging behind that. That makes it a very broad and deep platform. We also have a basic version of it. So in some sense it's sort of like an extra small. In addition to the small medium large so tends to and everything around at modernization, I think would be message number one number two alongside modernization. You're also thinking about migration of your workloads and the breadth and depth of, um, er Cloud Foundation now of being able to really solve, not just use cases, you are traditionally done, but also new ai use cases. Was the reason Jensen and us kind of partner that, and I mean what a great company and video has become. You know, the king maker of these ai driven applications? Why not run those AI applications on the best infrastructure on the planet? Remember, that's a coming together of both of our platforms to help customers. You know automotive banking fraud detection is a number of AI use cases that now get our best and we want it. And the same thing then applies to Project Monterey, which takes the B c f e m A Cloud Foundation proposition to smart Knicks on Dell, HP Lenovo are embracing the in video Intel's and Pen Sandoz in that smart make architectural, however, that so that entire world of multi cloud being operative Phobia Macleod Foundation on Prem and all of its extended use cases like AI or Smart Knicks or Edge, but then also into the AWS Azure, Google Multi Cloud world. We obviously had a preferred relationship with Amazon that's going incredibly well, but you also saw some announcements last week from, uh, Microsoft Azure about azure BMR solutions at their conference ignite. So we feel very good about the migration opportunity alongside of modernization on the third priority, gentlemen would be security. It's obviously a topic that I most recently taken uninterested in my day job is CEO of the company running the front office customer facing revenue functions by night job by Joe Coffin has been driving. The security strategy for the company has been incredibly enlightening to talk, to see SOS and drive this intrinsic security or zero trust from the network to end point and workload and cloud security. And we made some exciting announcements there around bringing together MAWR capabilities with NSX and Z scaler and a problem black and workload security. And of course, Lassiter wouldn't cover all of this. But I would say if I was a attendee of the conference those the three things I want them to take away what BMR is doing in the future of APS what you're doing, the future of a multi cloud world and how we're making security relevant for distributed workforce. >>I know David >>so much to talk about here, Sanjay. So, uh, talk about modern APS? That's one of the five franchise platforms VM Ware has a history of going from, you know, Challenger toe dominant player. You saw that with end user computing, and there's many, many other examples, so you are clearly one of the top, you know. Let's call it five or six platforms out there. We know what those are, uh, and but critical to that modern APS. Focus is developers, and I think it's fair to say that that's not your wheelhouse today, but you're making moves there. You agree that that is, that is a critical part of modern APS, and you update us on what you're doing for that community to really take a leadership position there. >>Yeah, no, I think it's a very good point, David. We way seek to constantly say humble and hungry. There's never any assumption from us that VM Ware is completely earned anyplace off rightful leadership until we get thousands, tens of thousands. You know, we have a half a million customers running on our virtualization sets of products that have made us successful for 20 years 70 million virtual machines. But we have toe earn that right and containers, and I think there will be probably 10 times as many containers is their virtual machines. So if it took us 20 years to not just become the leader in in virtual machines but have 70 million virtual machines, I don't think it will be 20 years before there's a billion containers and we seek to be the leader in that platform. Now, why, Why VM Where and why do you think we can win in their long term. What are we doing with developers Number one? We do think there is a container capability independent of virtual machine. And that's what you know, this entire world of what hefty on pivotal brought to us on. You know, many of the hundreds of customers that are using what was formerly pivotal and FDR now what's called Tan Xue have I mean the the case. Studies of what those customers are doing are absolutely incredible. When I listen to them, you take Dick's sporting goods. I mean, they are building curbside, pick up a lot of the world. Now the pandemic is doing e commerce and curbside pick up people are going to the store, That's all based on Tan Xue. We've had companies within this sort of world of pandemic working on contact, tracing app. Some of the diagnostic tools built without they were the lab services and on the 10 zoo platform banks. Large banks are increasingly standardizing on a lot of their consumer facing or wealth management type of applications, anything that they're building rapidly on this container platform. So it's incredible the use cases I'm hearing public sector. The U. S. Air Force was talking about how they've done this. Many of them are not public about how they're modernizing dams, and I tend to learn the best from these vertical use case studies. I mean, I spend a significant part of my life is you know, it s a P and increasingly I want to help the company become a lot more vertical. Use case in banking, public sector, telco manufacturing, CPG retail top four or five where we're seeing a lot of recurrence of these. The Tan Xue portfolio actually brings us closest to almost that s a P type of dialogue because we're having an apse dialogue in the in the speak of an industry as opposed to bits and bytes Notice I haven't talked at all about kubernetes or containers. I'm talking about the business problem being solved in a retailer or a bank or public sector or whatever have you now from a developer audience, which was the second part of your question? Dave, you know, we talked about this, I think a year or two ago. We have five million developers today that we've been able to, you know, as bringing these acquisitions earn some audience with about two or three million from from the spring community and two or three million from the economic community. So think of those five million people who don't know us because of two acquisitions we don't. Obviously spring was inside Vienna where went out of pivotal and then came back. So we really have spent a lot of time with that community. A few weeks ago, we had spring one. You guys are aware of that? That conference record number of attendees okay, Registered, I think of all 40 or 50,000, which is, you know, much bigger than the physical event. And then a substantial number of them attended live physical. So we saw a great momentum out of spring one, and we're really going to take care of that, That that community base of developers as they care about Java Manami also doing really, really well. But then I think the rial audience it now has to come from us becoming part of the conversation. That coupon at AWS re invent at ignite not just the world, I mean via world is not gonna be the only place where infrastructure and developers come to. We're gonna have to be at other events which are very prominent and then have a developer marketplace. So it's gonna be a multiyear effort. We're okay with that. To grow that group of about five million developers that we today Kate or two on then I think there will be three or four other companies that also play very prominently to developers AWS, Microsoft and Google. And if we're one among those three or four companies and remembers including that list, we feel very good about our ability to be in a place where this is a shared community, takes a village to approach and an appeal to those developers. I think there will be one of those four companies that's doing this for many years to >>come. Santa, I got to get your take on. I love your reference to the Web days and how the development environment change and how the simplicity came along very relevant to how we're seeing this digital transformation. But I want to get your thoughts on how you guys were doing pre and now during and Post Cove it. You already had a complicated thing coming on. You had multi cloud. You guys were expanding your into end you had acquisitions, you mentioned a few of them. And then cove it hit. Okay, so now you have Everything is changing you got. He's got more complex city. You have more solutions, and then the customer psychology is change. You got to spectrums of customers, people trying to save their business because it's changed, their customer behavior has changed. And you have other customers that are doubling down because they have a tailwind from Cove it, whether it's a modern app, you know, coming like Zoom and others are doing well because of the environment. So you got your customers air in this in this in this, in this storm, you know, they're trying to save down, modernized or or or go faster. How are you guys changing? Because it's impacted how you sell. People are selling differently, how you implement and how you support customers, because you already had kind of the whole multi cloud going on with the modern APS. I get that, but Cove, it has changed things. How are you guys adopting and changing to meet the customer needs who are just trying to save their business on re factor or double down and continue >>John. Great question. I think I also talked about some of this in one of your previous digital events that you and I talked about. I mean, you go back to the last week of February 1st week of March, actually back up, even in January, my last trip on a plane. Ah, major trip outside this country was the World Economic Forum in Davos. And, you know, there were thousands of us packed into the small digits in Switzerland. I was sitting having dinner with Andy Jassy in a restaurant one night that day. Little did we know. A month later, everything would change on DWhite. We began to do in late February. Early March was first. Take care of employees. You always wanna have the pulse, check employees and be in touch with them. Because the health and safety of employees is much more important than the profits of, um, where you know. So we took care of that. Make sure that folks were taking care of older parents were in good place. We fortunately not lost anyone to death. Covert. We had some covert cases, but they've recovered on. This is an incredible pandemic that connects all of us in the human fabric. It has no separation off skin color or ethnicity or gender, a little bit of difference in people who are older, who might be more affected or prone to it. But we just have to, and it's taught me to be a significantly more empathetic. I began to do certain things that I didn't do before, but I felt was the right thing to do. For example, I've begun to do 25 30 minute calls with every one of my key countries. You know, as I know you, I run customer operations, all of the go to market field teams reporting to me on. I felt it was important for me to be showing up, not just in the big company meetings. We do that and big town halls where you know, some fractions. 30,000 people of VM ware attend, but, you know, go on, do a town hall for everybody in a virtual zoom session in Japan. But in their time zone. So 10 o'clock my time in the night, uh, then do one in China and Australia kind of almost travel around the world virtually, and it's not long calls 25 30 minutes, where 1st 10 or 15 minutes I'm sharing with them what I'm seeing across other countries, the world encouraging them to focus on a few priorities, which I'll talk about in a second and then listening to them for 10 15 minutes and be, uh and then the call on time or maybe even a little earlier, because every one of us is going to resume button going from call to call the call. We're tired of T. There's also mental, you know, fatigue that we've gotta worry about. Mental well, being long term. So that's one that I personally began to change. I began to also get energy because in the past, you know, I would travel to Europe or Asia. You know, 40 50%. My life has travel. It takes a day out of your life on either end, your jet lag. And then even when you get to a Tokyo or Beijing or to Bangalore or the London, getting between sites of these customers is like a 45 minute, sometimes in our commute. Now I'm able to do many of these 25 30 minute call, so I set myself a goal to talk to 1000 chief security officers. I know a lot of CEOs and CFOs from my times at S A P and VM ware, but I didn't know many security officers who often either work for a CEO or report directly to the legal counsel on accountable to the audit committee of the board. And I got a list of these 1,002,000 people we called email them. Man, I gotta tell you, people willing to talk to me just coming, you know, into this I'm about 500 into that. And it was role modeling to my teams that the top of the company is willing to spend as much time as possible. And I have probably gotten a lot more productive in customer conversations now than ever before. And then the final piece of your question, which is what do we tell the customer in terms about portfolio? So these were just more the practices that I was able to adapt during this time that have given me energy on dial, kind of get scared of two things from the portfolio perspective. I think we began to don't notice two things. One is Theo entire move of migration and modernization around the cloud. I describe that as you know, for example, moving to Amazon is a migration opportunity to azure modernization. Is that whole Tan Xue Eminem? Migration of modernization is highly relevant right now. In fact, taking more speed data center spending might be on hold on freeze as people kind of holding till depend, emmick or the GDP recovers. But migration of modernization is accelerating, so we wanna accelerate that part of our portfolio. One of the products we have a cloud on Amazon or Cloud Health or Tan Xue and maybe the other offerings for the other public dog. The second part about portfolio that we're seeing acceleration around is distributed workforce security work from home work from anywhere. And that's that combination off workspace, one for both endpoint management, virtual desktops, common black envelope loud and the announcements we've now made with Z scaler for, uh, distributed work for security or what the analysts called secure access. So message. That's beautiful because everyone working from home, even if they come back to the office, needs a very different model of security and were now becoming a leader in that area. of security. So these two parts of the portfolio you take the five franchise pillars and put them into these two buckets. We began to see momentum. And the final thing, I would say, Guys, just on a soft note. You know, I've had to just think about ways in which I balance work and family. It's just really easy. You know what, 67 months into this pandemic to burn out? Ah, now I've encouraged my team. We've got to think about this as a marathon, not a sprint. Do the personal things that you wanna do that will make your life better through this pandemic. That in practice is that you keep after it. I'll give you one example. I began biking with my kids and during the summer months were able to bike later. Even now in the fall, we're able to do that often, and I hope that's a practice I'm able to do much more often, even after the pandemic. So develop some activities with your family or with the people that you love the most that are seeing you a lot more and hopefully enjoying that time with them that you will keep even after this pandemic ends. >>So, Sanjay, I love that you're spending all this time with CSOs. I mean, I have a Well, maybe not not 1000 but dozens. And they're such smart people. They're really, you know, in the thick of things you mentioned, you know, your partnership with the scale ahead. Scott Stricklin on who is the C. C so of Wyndham? He was talking about the security club. But since the pandemic, there's really three waves. There's the cloud security, the identity, access management and endpoint security. And one of the things that CSOs will tell you is the lack of talent is their biggest challenge. And they're drowning in all these products. And so how should we think about your approach to security and potentially simplifying their lives? >>Yeah. You know, Dave, we talked about this, I think last year, maybe the year before, and what we were trying to do in security was really simplified because the security industry is like 5000 vendors, and it's like, you know, going to a doctor and she tells you to stay healthy. You gotta have 5000 tablets. You just cannot eat that many tablets you take you days, weeks, maybe a month to eat that many tablets. So ah, grand simplification has to happen where that health becomes part of your diet. You eat your proteins and vegetables, you drink your water, do your exercise. And the analogy and security is we cannot deploy dozens of agents and hundreds of alerts and many, many consoles. Uh, infrastructure players like us that have control points. We have 70 million virtual machines. We have 75 million virtual switches. We have, you know, tens of million's off workspace, one of carbon black endpoints that we manage and secure its incumbent enough to take security and making a lot more part of the infrastructure. Reduce the need for dozens and dozens of point tools. And with that comes a grand simplification of both the labor involved in learning all these tools. Andi, eventually also the cost of ownership off those particular tool. So that's one other thing we're seeking to do is increasingly be apart off that education off security professionals were both investing in ah, lot of off, you know, kind of threat protection research on many of our folks you know who are in a threat. Behavioral analytics, you know, kind of thread research. And people have come out of deep hacking experience with the government and others give back to the community and teaching classes. Um, in universities, there are a couple of non profits that are really investing in security, transfer education off CSOs and their teams were contributing to that from the standpoint off the ways in which we can give back both in time talent and also a treasure. So I think is we think about this. You're going to see us making this a long term play. We have a billion dollar security business today. There's not many companies that have, you know, a billion dollar plus of security is probably just two or three, and some of them have hit a wall in terms of their progress sport. We want to be one of the leaders in cybersecurity, and we think we need to do this both in building great product satisfying customers. But then also investing in the learning, the training enable remember, one of the things of B M worlds bright is thes hands on labs and all the training enable that happened at this event. So we will use both our platform. We in world in a variety of about the virtual environments to ensure that we get the best education of security to professional. >>So >>that's gonna be exciting, Because if you look at some of the evaluations of some of the pure plays I mean, you're a cloud security business growing a triple digits and, you know, you see some of these guys with, you know, $30 billion valuations, But I wanted to ask you about the market, E v m. Where used to be so simple Right now, you guys have expanded your tam dramatically. How are you thinking about, you know, the market opportunity? You've got your five franchise platforms. I know you're very disciplined about identifying markets, and then, you know, saying, Okay, now we're gonna go compete. But how do you look at the market and the market data? Give us the update there. >>Yeah, I think. Dave, listen, you know, I like davinci statement. You know, simplicity is the greatest form of sophistication, and I think you've touched on something that which is cos we get bigger. You know, I've had the great privilege of working for two great companies. s a P and B M where the bulk of my last 15 plus years And if something I've learned, you know, it's very easy. Both companies was to throw these TLS three letter acronyms, okay? And I use an acronym and describing the three letter acronyms like er or s ex. I mean, they're all acronyms and a new employee who comes to this company. You know, Carol Property, for example. We just hired her from Google. Is our CMO her first comments like, My goodness, there is a lot of off acronyms here. I've gotta you need a glossary? I had the same reaction when I joined B. M or seven years ago and had the same reaction when I joined the S A. P 15 years ago. Now, of course, two or three years into it, you learn everything and it becomes part of your speed. We have toe constantly. It's like an accordion like you expanded by making it mawr of luminous and deep. But as you do that it gets complex, you then have to simplify it. And that's the job of all of us leaders and I this year, just exemplifying that I don't have it perfect. One of the gifts I do have this communication being able to simplify things. I recorded a five minute video off our five franchise pill. It's just so that the casual person didn't know VM where it could understand on. Then, when I'm on your shore and when on with Jim Cramer and CNBC, I try to simplify, simplify, simplify, simplify because the more you can talk and analogies and pictures, the more the casual user. I mean, of course, and some other audiences. I'm talking to investors. Get it on. Then, Of course, as you go deeper, it should be like progressive layers or feeling of an onion. You can get deeper. It's not like the entire discussion with Sanjay Putin on my team is like, you know, empty suit. It's a superficial discussion. We could go deeper, but you don't have to begin the discussion in the bowels off that, and that's really what we don't do. And then the other part of your question was, how do we think about new markets? You know, we always start with Listen, you sort of core in contact our borough come sort of Jeffrey Moore, Andi in the Jeffrey more context. You think about things that you do really well and then ask yourself outside of that what the Jason sees that are closest to you, that your customers are asking you to advance into on that, either organically to partnerships or through acquisitions. I think John and I talked about in the previous dialogue about the framework of build partner and by, and we always think about it in that order. Where do we advance and any of the moves we've made six years ago, seven years ago and I joined the I felt VM are needed to make a move into mobile to really cement opposition in end user computing. And it took me some time to convince my peers and then the board that we should by Air One, which at that time was the biggest acquisition we've ever done. Okay. Similarly, I'm sure prior to me about Joe Tucci, Pat Nelson. We're thinking about nice here, and I'm moving to networking. Those were too big, inorganic moves. +78 years of Raghu was very involved in that. The decisions we moved to the make the move in the public cloud myself. Rgu pack very involved in the decision. Their toe partner with Amazon, the change and divest be cloud air and then invested in organic effort around what's become the Claudia. That's an organic effort that was an acquisition fast forward to last year. It took me a while to really Are you internally convinced people and then make the move off the second biggest acquisition we made in carbon black and endpoint security cement the security story that we're talking about? Rgu did a similar piece of good work around ad monetization to justify that pivotal needed to come back in. So but you could see all these pieces being adjacent to the core, right? And then you ask yourself, Is that context meaning we could leave it to a partner like you don't see us get into the hardware game we're partnering with. Obviously, the players like Dell and HP, Lenovo and the smart Knick players like Intel in video. In Pensando, you see that as part of the Project Monterey announcement. But the adjacent seas, for example, last year into app modernization up the stack and into security, which I'd say Maura's adjacent horizontal to us. We're now made a lot more logical. And as we then convince ourselves that we could do it, convince our board, make the move, We then have to go and tell our customers. Right? And this entire effort of talking to CSOs What am I doing is doing the same thing that I did to my board last year, simplified to 15 minutes and get thousands of them to understand it. Received feedback, improve it, invest further. And actually, some of the moves were now making this year around our partnership in distributed Workforce Security and Cloud Security and Z scaler. What we're announcing an XDR and Security Analytics. All of the big announcements of security of this conference came from what we heard last year between the last 12 months of my last year. Well, you know, keynote around security, and now, and I predict next year it'll be even further. That's how you advance the puck every year. >>Sanjay, I want to get your thoughts. So now we have a couple minutes left. But we did pull the audience and the community to get some questions for you, since it's virtually wanted to get some representation there. So I got three questions for you. First question, what comes after Cloud and number two is VM Ware security company. And three. What company had you wish you had acquired? >>Oh, my goodness. Okay, the third one eyes gonna be the turkey is one, I think. Listen, because I'm gonna give you my personal opinion, and some of it was probably predates me, so I could probably safely So do that. And maybe put the blame on Joe Tucci or somebody else is no longer here. But let me kind of give you the first two. What comes after cloud? I think clouds gonna be with us for a long time. First off this multi cloud world, you just look at the moment, um, that AWS and azure and the other clouds all have. It's incredible on I think this that multi cloud from phenomenon. But if there's an adapt ation of it, it's gonna be three forms of cloud. People are really only focus today in private public cloud. You have to remember the edge and Telco Cloud and this pendulum off the right balance of workloads between the data center called it a private cloud. The public cloud on one end and the telco edge on the other end. I think we're in a really good position for workloads to really swing between all three of those locations. Three other part that I think comes as a sequel to Cloud is cloud native. All of the capabilities a serverless functions but also containers that you know. Obviously the one could think of that a sister topics to cloud but the entire world of containers. The other seat, uh, then cloud a cloud native will also be topics, but these were all fairly connected. That's how I'd answer the first question. A security company? Absolutely. We you know, we aspire to be one of the leading companies in cyber security. I don't think they will be only one. We have to show this by the wealth on breath of our customers. The revenue momentum we have Gartner ranking us or the analysts ranking us in top rights of magic quadrants being viewed as an innovator simplifying the stack. But listen, we weren't even on the radar. We weren't speaking of the security conferences years ago. Now we are. We have a billion dollar security business, 20,000 plus customers, really strong presences and network endpoint and workload and Cloud Security. The three Coppola's a lot more coming in Security analytics, Cloud Security distributed workforce Security. So we're here to stay. And if anything, BMR persist through this, we're planning for multi your five or 10 year timeframe. And in that course I mean, the competition is smaller. Companies that don't have the breadth and depth of the n words are Andy muscle and are going market. We just have to keep building great products and serving customer on the third man. There's so many. But I mean, I think Listen, when I was looking back, I always wondered this is before I joined so I could say the summit speculatively on. Don't you know, make this This is BMR. Sorry. This is Sanjay one's opinion. Not VM. I gotta make very, very clear. Well, listen, I would have if I was at BMO in 2012 or 2013. I would love to about service now then service. It was a great company. I don't even know maybe the company's talk, but then talk about a very successful company at that time now. Maybe their priorities were different. I wasn't at the company at the time, but I can speculate if that had happened, that would have been an interesting Now I think that was during the time of Paul Maritz here and and so on. So for them, maybe there were other priorities the company need to get done. But at that time, of course, today s so it's not as big of a even slightly bigger market cap than us. So that's not happening. But that's a great example of a good company that I think would have at that time fit very well with VM Ware. And then there's probably we don't look back and regret we move forward. I mean, I think about the acquisitions we have made the big ones. Okay, Nice era air watch pop in black. Pivotal. The big moves we've made in terms of partnership. Amazon. What? We're announcing this This, you know, this week within video and Z scaler. So you never look back and regret. You always look for >>follow up on that To follow up on that from a developer, entrepreneurial or partner Perspective. Can you share where the white spaces for people to innovate around vm Where where where can people partner and play. Whether I'm an entrepreneur in a garage or venture back, funded or say a partner pivoting and or resetting with Govind, where's the white spaces with them? >>I think that, you know, there's gonna be a number off places where the Tan Xue platform develops, as it kind of makes it relevant to developers. I mean, there's, I think the first way we think about this is to make ourselves relevant toe all of that ecosystem around the C I. C. D type apply platform. They're really good partners of ours. They're like, get lab, You know, all of the ways in which open source communities, you know will play alongside that Hash E Corp. Jay frog there number of these companies that are partnering with us and we're excited about all of their relevancy to tend to, and it's our job to go and make that marketplace better and better. You're going to hear more about that coming up from us on. Then there's the set of data companies, you know, con fluent. You know, of course, you've seen a big I p o of a snowflake. All of those data companies, we'll need a very natural synergy. If you think about the old days of middleware, middleware is always sort of separate from the database. I think that's starting to kind of coalesce. And Data and analytics placed on top of the modern day middleware, which is containers I think it's gonna be now does VM or play physically is a data company. We don't know today we're gonna partner very heavily. But picking the right set of partners been fluent is a good example of one on. There's many of the next generation database companies that you're going to see us partner with that will become part of that marketplace influence. And I think, as you see us certainly produce out the VM Ware marketplace for developers. I think this is gonna be a game changing opportunity for us to really take those five million developers and work with the leading companies. You know, I use the example of get Lab is an example get help there. Others that appeal to developers tie them into our developer framework. The one thing you learn about developers, you can't have a mindset. With that, you all come to just us. It's a very mingled village off multiple ecosystems and Venn diagrams that are coalescing. If you try to take over the world, the developer community just basically shuns you. You have to have a very vibrant way in which you are mingling, which is why I described. It's like, Listen, we want our developers to come to our conferences and reinvent and ignite and get the best experience of all those provide tools that coincide with everybody. You have to take a holistic view of this on if you do that over many years, just like the security topic. This is a multi year pursuit for us to be relevant. Developers. We feel good about the future being bright. >>David got five minutes e. >>I thought you were gonna say Zoom, Sanjay, that was That was my wildcard. >>Well, listen, you know, I think it was more recently and very fast catapult Thio success, and I don't know that that's clearly in the complete, you know, sweet spot of the anywhere. I mean, you know, unified collaboration would have probably put us in much more competition with teams and, well, back someone you always have to think about what's in the in the bailiwick of what's closest to us, but zooms a great partner. Uh, I mean, obviously you love to acquire anybody that's hot, but Eric's doing really well. I mean, Erica, I'm sure he had many people try to come to buy him. I'm just so proud of him as a friend of all that he was named to Time magazine Top 100. But what he's done is phenomenon. I think he could build a company that's just his important, his Facebook. So, you know, I encourage him. Don't sell, keep building the company and you'll build a company that's going to be, you know, the enterprise version of Facebook. And I think that's a tremendous opportunity to do this better than anybody else is doing. And you know, I'm as an immigrant. He's, you know, China. Born now American, I'm Indian born, American, assim immigrants. We both have a similar story. I learned a lot from him. I learned a lot from him, from on speed on speed and how to move fast, he tells me he learns a thing to do for me on scale. We teach each other. It's a beautiful friendship. >>We'll make sure you put in a good word for the Kiwi. One more zoom integration >>for a final word or the zoom that is the future Facebook of the enterprise. Whatever, Sanjay, Thank >>you for connecting with us. Virtually. It is a digital foundation. It is an unpredictable world. Um, it's gonna change. It could be software to find the operating models or changing you guys. We're changing how you serve customers with new chief up commercial customer officer you have in place, which is a new hire. Congratulations. And you guys were flexing with the market and you got a tailwind. So congratulations, >>John and Dave. Always a pleasure. We couldn't do this without the partnership. Also with you. Congratulations of Successful Cube. And in its new digital format, Thank you for being with us With VM world here on. Do you know all that you're doing to get the story out? The guests that you have on the show, they look forward, including the nonviable people like, Hey, can I get on the Cuban like, Absolutely. Because they look at your platform is away. I'm telling this story. Thanks for all you're doing. I wish you health and safety. >>I'm gonna bring more community. And Dave is, you know, and Sanjay, and it's easier without the travel. Get more interviews, tell more stories and tell the most important stories. And thank you for telling your story and VM World story here of the emerald 2020. Sanjay Poon in the chief operating officer here on the Cube I'm John for a day Volonte. Thanks for watching Cube Virtual. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto studios today. We're having a CUBE Conversation around a really interesting topic. It's applied AI, applied machine learning. You know, we hear a lot about artificial intelligence and machine learning in kind of the generic sense, but I think really, where we're going to see a lot of the activity is when that's applied to specific solutions and specific applications. And we're really excited to have our next guest. He's applying AI and machine learning in a really interesting and important space. So joining us from San Francisco is Bryton Shang. He's the founder and CEO of Aquabyte. Bryton great to see you. >> Yeah, Jeff. Great to be here. >> I can't believe it's been almost a year since we met at a Kosta Noah event. I looked it up June of last year. Wow, how time flies. But before we get into it, give everyone just kind of the quick overview of what you guys are up to at Aquabyte. >> Aquabyte's a company, we're building software to be able to help fish farmers. It's computer vision and machine learning software based on a camera that takes pictures of a fish in a fish pen, analyzes those images and helps the farmer understand the health of the fish, the weight of the fish, how much to feed and generally better manage their farms. >> It's such a great story. So for those people that haven't seen it, I encourage you to jump on the internet and look up the AWS special that Werner did on Aquabyte last year. It's a really nice piece, really gets into the technology and a lot of the fun part of the story. I really enjoyed it and you know, congratulations to you for getting featured in that AWS piece. But let's go to how did you get here? I mean, you're really interesting guy. You're a multiple company founder coming out of Princeton, in most of your startup role, your startups are all about, Applied Mathematics and Statistics but you've been in everything from finance and trading to looking at cells in the context of Cancer. How did you get to Aquabyte? Was it the technology? And then you found a cool solution? Or did you hear about, you know, an interesting problem and you thought, you know, I have just the trick to help attack that problem. >> Well, so I had studied Operations Research and Financial Engineering at Princeton, which I guess we would call nowadays, like modern day machine learning and data science. So that was something as you mentioned, first I'd apply it to algorithmic trading, and then got on to more general applications of computer vision for example, in cancer detection. The idea to apply machine learning talk to aquaculture, came from a number of different sources. One was from a previous co-founder who had been doing some investigation in the fish farming space, had a business school classmate who owned a fish farm. And also growing up in Ithaca, New York near to Cornell I had a family friend who is a professor of aquaculture. And really just to learn about fish farming and overfishing and the idea that over half the fish we eat nowadays are coming from fish farms and that you could use machine learning and computer vision to make these farms more efficient. That being very interesting and compelling. >> So it's really interesting. One of the things that jumped out from me when I watched the piece with Werner was the amazing efficiency on the feed to protein output in fish farming. I had no idea that it was so high, it's basically approaching one to one really interesting opportunity. And I had no idea to that, as you said over 50% of the world's seafood that's consumed was commercially farmed. So really a giant opportunity and so great space to be in a lot of environmental impacts. So but how did you decide to find an entree? We know where to find an entree for machine learning to make a big impact in this industry. >> So it came from a couple different angles. First, there's been applications of machine learning computer vision and other industries that served as good parallels where we're using cameras to be able to take images and then use computer vision to derive insight from those images. For example, just take aquaculture where you're using cameras to spray weeds to understand crop yield. And so there's good parallels and other industries. aquaculture specifically, I was also looking at what was coming out in the machine learning literature in terms of using cameras to size fish. And so the idea that you could use cameras to size fish was very interesting because then you can use that to figure out growth rates and feeding. And as I developed my idea, it really became clear that you could use computer vision and machine learning to do a wide range of things at the farm and so, it started with this idea about using cameras to size fish and then it became monitoring health and sea lice and parasites and then ultimately, all the aspects of the farm that you would want to manage. >> And correct me for wrong, but do you guys identify individual fish within the population within that big net and then you're basically tracking individuals and then aggregating that to see the health of the whole population. >> That's right, the spot pattern on the fish is unique and we have an algorithm that's able to use that to determine each individual fish via the spot pattern. >> Wow. And then how long once, once you kind of got together with the farmers to really start to say, wow, we can use this application for, as you said, worrying about lice and disease control and oh wow, we can use this application to measure growth. So now we know the health of the environment or wow, now we know the size so we can impact our harvest depending on what our customers are looking for. I assume there's all kinds of ways you can slice and dice the data that comes out of the system into actual information that can be applied in lots of different ways. >> Right So I started the company back in 2017. And if you think about aquaculture, it's actually a hugely international industry 99% outside the US, and within aquaculture, very quickly zeroed in on salmon farming, and specifically salmon farming in Norway. Norway produces about half of the world's farmed salmon and ended up going there for a conference Aqua Nor August of 2017 and whilst there had my idea and a prototype for sizing the fish with a camera, but then also realized in Norway they have recently passed regulations around counting sea lice on the fish so this is parasite that attaches to the fish and is regulated and pretty much every country that grows fish in the ocean and farmers asked me then, okay, if you could use the camera to size fish, can you also count sea lice? And can you also detect the appetite? And then it just turned into this more platform approach where this single camera could do a wide variety of application. >> That's awesome. And I'm just curious to get your take on, the acceptance and really the excitement around, you know, kind of application of machine learning in this computer vision in terms of the digital transformation of commercial fish farming, because once it sounds like once they discovered the power of this thing, they very quickly saw lots of different applications, and I assume continue to see kind of new applications to apply this to transform their business. >> Right, I would say fish farming itself is already fairly highly mechanized. So you're dealing with fairly rough conditions in the ocean. And a lot of the equipment there is already mechanized. So you have automatic feeders, you have feeding systems. That said, there isn't too much computer vision machine learning in the industry. Today, a lot of that is fairly new to the farmers. That said they were open to trying out the technology, especially when it helps save labor at the farm. And it's something that they have familiarity with, with some of the applications for example, with Tesla with their autopilot and other examples that you could point to in common day use. >> That's interesting that you brought up Tesla, I was going to say that the Tesla had an autonomous driving day presentation. I don't know, it's probably been a year or so now but really long in-depth presentations by some of his key technical people around the microprocessor and AI and machine learning and a whole thing about computer vision. And, you know, there's this great debate about, can you can you have an autonomous car without Lidar and I love the great quote from that thing was you "Lions don't have Lidar "and they chase down gazelles all day long." So, we can do a lot with our vision. I'm curious, some of the specific challenges within working in your environment within working in water and working with all kinds of crazy light conditions. It's funny on that Tesla, they talked about really some of the more challenging environments being like a tunnel, inside of a tunnel with wet pavement. So, kind of reflections and these kind of metric conditions that make it much harder. What are some of the special challenges you guys had to overcome? And how much, is it really the technology? Or is it really being done in the software and the algorithms and the analyzing or is it basically a bunch of pixel dots? >> Right. The basic technology is based on similar, it's a serial camera that takes images of the fish. Now, a lot of the special challenges we deal with relate to the underwater domain. So underwater, you're dealing with a rough environment, there could be particles in the water, specularity some reflections underwater, you're dealing with practical challenges such as algae, but even the behavior of the fish, are they swimming by the camera? Or do you want to position your camera in the pen. Also, water itself has interesting optical properties. So the deeper you go, it affects the wavelength that's hitting the camera. And also you have specialized optics where the focal length and other aspects of the optics are affected underwater. And so a lot of the specific expertise we've developed is understanding how to sense properly underwater. Some of that is handled by the mechanical design. A lot of it is also handled by the software, where on the camera we have GPUs that are processing the images and using deep learning computer vision algorithms to identify fish parts and sea lice and other aspects of the fish. >> It's crazy, and how many fish are in one you know, individuals are in one of these nets. >> So single pen can have as much as 100,000. Where actually in one pen, which is I think it's the largest salmon farm in Norway based on an oil rig called the ocean farm where they have 2 million fish in a single pen. >> 2 million fish, and you're in that one. >> Right, yes. >> And you've identified all 2 million fish or do you work on some sampling? Or how do you make sure every fish eventually swims by the camera? Or does the camera move around inside that population? That's an amazing amount of fish. >> So I think we'll eventually get to the point where we can identify every single fish in the pen and use that to track individual health and growth. Well we practice what we use the individual recognition algorithm the deal is to de-duplicate fish. So a common question we get asked is okay, what if the same fish swims by the camera twice, and so it's used to de-duplicate fish But I think eventually you'd be able to survey the entire population. >> That's crazy. So where do you guys go next Bryton, again you've brought your analytical brain to a number of problems. Do you see kind of expanding the use within the fish industry and kind of a vertical player? Do you see really a horizontal play in different parts of agriculture and beyond to apply some of the techniques and the IP that you guys have built up so far? >> Well, starting with Norwegian salmon, we want to bring this to other countries around the world for other species. So we've expanded to our second species, which is a rainbow trout. We also are, starting with computer vision are building this very interesting data set which we can use to enable other applications. Eventually, we'll get to the point where that data allows us to run fully autonomous fish farms. Right now the limitations of fish farming is that it needs to be close to the shore. So you can have people go to the farms. And once you have fully autonomous fish farms, then you can have fish farms in the open ocean, fish farms on land. And with the world being 70% water, we're only producing about 5% of the protein from the oceans. And so it presents a massive opportunity for us to be able to increase the amount of world's demand for protein. Also given that we're running out of land to grow crops. >> Wow, that's amazing. We're only getting 5% of our food protein out of the ocean at this stage? >> Right, right. >> That is crazy. I thought it would be much higher than that. Well, certainly a really cool opportunity and, a kind of a really awesome little documentary by Werner and the team, definitely go watch it if you haven't seen it. So I just give you the last word as you've been in this industry and really seen kind of the transformative potential of something like computer vision in commercial fishing and who would have even thought that, six or seven years ago? How does that help you kind of think forward, kind of the opportunity really to use these types of applications like computer vision and machine learning to advance something so important, like food creation for our world. >> I think there's definitely a lot of opportunities to be able to use machine learning computer vision, similar technologies to help make these industries a lot more efficient. Also a lot more environmentally sustainable. I'd say something like this industry, like aquaculture, it's not so apparent just if you're in the valley, and even in the US just because 99% of it happens outside the US and so to be able to be familiar with the industry to know that it exists and to build applications itself is a bit of a challenge. I would say that is changing. One of the things that actually came out a couple weeks ago was an executive order to actually start kick starting offshore aquaculture in the US. So it is starting in the US. But more generally, I do think there's a massive opportunity to be able to apply machine and computer vision in new industries that previously haven't been addressed. >> Yeah, that's great. And I just love how you got kind of a single source of data, but really the information that you can apply and the applications you can apply are actually quite broad. It's a super use case. Well, Bryton, thanks for spending a few minutes. I've really enjoyed the story. Congratulations on your funding rounds and your continued success. >> Thanks, and really appreciate to be on and yeah, hope to continue to help bring the world more sustainable seafood. >> Absolutely. Well, thanks a lot Bryton. So he's Bryton and I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. We'll see you next time, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>From New York city. It's the cube covering. Welcome to the new edge brought to you by systems. >>Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff, Rick here with the cube. We are in Manhattan at the top of Goldman Sachs. It is a great view if you ever get an opportunity to come up here, I think 43 floors over the Hudson you could see forever. But this is the cloud events. So the clouds are here and we're excited to be here is the Penn Penn Sandow launch in the name of the event is welcome to the new edge, which is a pretty interesting play. We hear a lot about edge but we haven't really heard of that company really focusing on the edge as their primary go to market activity and really thinking about the edge first. So we're excited to have the cofounder cube Olam and many time guests a Sony Gian Deni. She's the co founder and chief business officer. So many great to see you. Good to see you too. >>And our hosts here at Goldman Sachs is uh, Josh Matthews. He's a managing director of technology at Goldman. Josh. Great to see you. You too. And thank you and thanks for hosting us. Nice. A nice place to come to work every day. So great conversation today. Congratulations on the launch of the company over two years in stealth mode. Talk a little bit about that. What is it like to be in stealth mode for so long and you guys raised big money, you've got a big team, you're doing heavy duty technology. What's it been like to finally open up the curtains and tell everybody what you've been? >>It's clearly very interesting and exciting. Normally it's taken me nine months to deliver a baby this time it's been two and a half years of being instilled while we have been getting ready for this baby to come out. So it's phenomenally exciting that too to be sharing the stage with our customers and our investors and our strategic partners. >>Yeah, I thought it was pretty interesting that you're launching with customers and when you really told the story on stage of how early you engaged with Josh and his team, um, first I want to get your kinda your perspective. Why were you doing that so early and what did that ultimately do with some of the design decisions that you guys made? And then we'll come back to Josh as to, you know, his participation. >>So I think whenever you conduct technology transitions, having a sense from customers that have the ability to look out two to three years is very important because when you're capturing market transitions, doing it with customer inputs is far more relevant than going about it alone. Uh, the other key thing about this architectural shift is that it allows the flexibility for every customer to go take pieces of how they want to bring the cloud architectures and bring it into their environment. So understanding that use case and understanding the compelling reasons of what problems both technological and business can be solving and having that perspective into the product definition and the design and the influence that customers like Josh you've had is why we are sitting here and talking about them in production. Uh, as opposed to, yeah, we're thinking about where we are. We are looking at it from a proof of concept perspective. Right. >>And Josh, your, your perspective, you said earlier today that, you know, as long as a sign is involved, you're, you're, uh, you're happy to jump in and see what she's been working on. So how, >>you know, how did you get involved, how did they reach out to you and, and what is it like working on, you know, technology so early in its development that you get to actually have some serious influence? Well, it's an amazing opportunity, um, to get exactly what you want, um, exactly what you know is going to solve problems for the business here. Um, you know, and the other thing is, you know, we've worked with this team, uh, through almost every spinning. Uh, I think it was a little young for the, maybe the first one. Um, but, uh, otherwise this team has worked with them through at least 15 years or more. So we knew the track record for execution and then for us on this product, I mean, it was an opportunity because it's truly a startup. Um, you know, Sony and the team brought us in. >>Uh, we kind of just put out problems on the table that we were trying to solve and then, you know, they came up with the product and the idea and we were able to put together, you know, yeah, these are our priority one, two, three that we want to go for. And you know, we've just been developing alongside them. So both software and, you know, driving what the feature set is. Right. So what were some of those problems guys? Price seemed like forever ago when you started this conversation, but as you kind of looked forward a couple of years back that you could see that were coming, that you needed addressed. You know, it's funny, we started with kind of like, well we think containerization is going to be explosive and, and you know, really everything's on virtual machines or bare metal, mostly virtual machines. So one, you know, as containers come out, how do we track them, secure them, um, how do we even secure, uh, you know, the virtual machines and our environment cause they're, you know, over almost a quarter million of them. >>The idea of being able to put, um, network policy, that's I would say incorruptible, not actually on the server, but at, you know, that's why we use firewalls, right? So solving that security problem was number one. The other one was being able to have the telemetry to see what's happening, what's changing, um, and troubleshoot at, you know, at the network layer from every single server. Again, it's all about scale. Like things were just scaling and the throughput's going up, traditional methods of being able to see what's on your network. You can't look in the middle, it just can't keep up. It's just speeds and feeds. So being able to push those things to the edge. And then lastly, it really happened more, um, through the process here. But about a year and a half ago, um, we began segmenting our network the same way a 5g provider does with a technology called segment routing. >>And we just said, that's kind of our follow on technologies to, you know, put the network in the server and put this segment routing capability all the way out at the edge. So, you know, some things we foresaw and other things we've just developed. You know, it's been, it's been two and a half years. So, um, it's been a great partnership and you know, I think more, more features will come. Well Sony, you and the team, but it's been talked about all day long, have have a history of multiple times that you've kind of brought these big transformational technologies. Um, head what, what did you guys see a couple of years back and kind of this progression, you saw this opportunity >>to do something a little bit different than you've done in the past, which is actually go out, raise, raise around and uh, and do a real startup. What was the opportunity that you saw this? >>So we saw a number of challenges and opportunities. At the same time, we, we clearly saw that, uh, the cloud architectures that have been built by the leaders, like the incumbents like AWS today have a lot of the intelligence that is being pushed into their, their respective compute platforms. Uh, and we also noticed that at the same time, while that was what was needed to build the first generation of the cloud, the new age applications, and even as gardener has predicted that 75% of all enterprise data and applications will be processed at the edge by 2025. If that happens, then you need that intelligence at the edge. You need the ability to go do it where the action is, which is at the edge. And very consistently we found that the architectures, including scale out storage, we're also driving the need for this intelligence to be on in a scale-out manner. >>So if you're going to scale out computing, you need the services to be going hand in hand with that scale. Our computer architecture for the enterprises so they can simplify their architectures and bring the cloud models that have only existed in the cloud world, into their own data centers and their own private clouds. So there were these technology transitions we saw were coming down the pike. It's easier said now in 2019 it wasn't so simple in 2017 because we had to look at these multiple technology transitions. And surprisingly, when we call those things out, as we were shaping the company's strategy, getting validation of the use cases from customers like Josh was pivotally important because it was for the validating that this would be the direction that the enterprises and the cloud customers would be taking. So the reason you start with a vision, you start with looking at where the technology transitions are going to be occurring and getting the customers that are looking farther out validated plays a very important role so that you can go and focus on the biggest problems that you need to go and solve. Right, right. >>It just seems like the, the, the big problem, um, for most layman's is, is the old one, which, why networking exists in the first place, which is do you bring the data to the compute or do you bring the compute to the data? And now as you said, in kind of this hyper distributed world, um, that's not really a viable answer either one, right? Because the two are blended and have to be together so that you don't necessarily have to move one to the other or the other back the other direction. So, and then the second piece that you talked about over and over in your, in your presentation with security and you know, everybody talks about security all the time. Everybody gets hacked every day. Um, and there's this constant theme that security has to be baked in, you know, kind of throughout the process as opposed to kind of bolted on at the end. You guys took that approach from day, just speak >>it into the architecture. Yes. That was crucially important because when you are trying to address the needs of the enterprise, particularly in regulated markets like financial services, you want to be in a position where you have thought about it and baked it into the platform ground up. Uh, and so when we are building the program of a process, so we had the opportunity to go put the right elements on it. In order to make it tamper proof, we had to go think about encrypting all the traffic and communication between our policy manager and the distributed services platforms at the edge. We also then took it a step further to say, now if there were to be a bad actor that were to attack from an operating system vulnerability perspective, how do we ensure that we can contain that bad actor as opposed to being propagated over the infrastructure? So those elements are things you cannot bolt on at design time, or when you need to go put those into the design day one, right. Only on top of that foundation, then can you build a very secure set of services, whether it's encryption, whether it's distributed via services, so on and so forth. >>Uh, and Josh, I'm curious on your take as we've seen kind of software defined everything, uh, slowly take over as opposed to, you know, kind of single purpose machines or single purpose appliances, et cetera. Yep. Really a different opportunity for you to control. Um, but also to see a lot of talk today about, about policy management. A lot of talk about, um, observability and as you said now even segmentation of the networks, like you segment the nodes and you segment everything else. You know, how, how do you see this kind of software defined everything continuing to evolve and what does it enable you to do that you can't do with just a static device? I mean, the approach we took, um, we started like, you know, years ago, about six years ago was saying we can get computers, uh, deployed for our applications. No problem. Uh, and you know, at, at on demand and in our internal cloud, now we can do it as a hybrid cloud solution. >>One of the biggest problems we had in software defined was how do you put security policy, firewall policy, um, with that compute and in, you know, our industry, there's lots of segmentation for material nonpublic information. Um, compliance, you know, it could be internet facing, B2B facing. Uh, we do that today. We program various firewall vendors automatically. Uh, we allow our application developers to create, um, these policies and push them through as code and then program the firewall. What we were really looking to do here is distribute that. So we F day one in getting pen Sandow into production was to use our uh, our firewall system. It's called pinnacle. We, um, we programmed from pinnacle directly into the Penn Songdo Venice manager via API and then it, you know, uses its inventory systems to push those things out. So for us, software defined has been around, I like to call it the store front, but for the developer it's network policy, it's load balancing. >>Um, and, and that's really what they see. Those are the big products on the net. Everything else is just packet forwarding to them. So we wanted with pen Sandow at least starting with security to have that bar set day one and then get, you know, all the benefits of scale, throughput and having the policies close to the, on the edge. You know, we're back to talking about the edge. We want to right there with the, with the deployment, with the workload or the application. And that's, that's what we're doing right off the bat. Yeah. What are the things you mentioned in your talk was w is, you know, kind of in the theme of atomic computing, right? You want to get smaller and smaller units so that you can apply and redeploy based on wherever the workload is and in the change. And you said you've now been able to, you know, basically take things out of dedicated, you know, kind of a dedicated space, dedicated line and dedicated job so that you can now put them in a more virtualized situation. >>Exactly. Grab more resources as you need them. Well, you'd think the architecture, I mean even just theater of the mind is just, you're saying, I'm going to put this specific thing that I have to secure behind these firewalls. So it's one cabinet of computers or a hundred it's still behind a set of firewalls. It's a very North, South, you know, get in and get out here. You're talking about having that same level of security and I think that's novel, right? There hasn't been, if you look at virtual firewalls or you know, IP tables on Linux, I mean it's corruptible. It's, it's, it can be attacked on the computer. And once it's, you know, once you've been attacked in that, that that attack vector has been, you know, hit your, your compromised. This is a separate management plane. Um, you know, separate control plane. The server doesn't see it. >>That security is provided. It's at scale, it's East, West. The more computers that have the pen Sandow, you know, architecture inside of them, the, you know, the wider you can go, right. And then the North South goes away. I'm just curious to get your perspective. Um, as you know, everyone is a technology company. At the same time, technology budgets are going down, people are hard to hire. Uh, your data is growing exponentially and everything's a security threat. Yes. So as you get up in the morning, get ready to drive to work and you're drinking your coffee, I mean, how do you, you know, kind of communicate to make sure to senior management knows kind of what your objectives are in this, this kind of ongoing challenge to do more with less. And it, even though it's an increasingly strategic place or is it actually is what the company does now, it just happens to wrap it around your plane services or financial services or travel or whatever. >>Uh, I think your eye, and I had said it to John before, um, it has to come from that budget has to come from somewhere. So I think a combination of, of one that's less, well, I'll say the one that's easier to quantify is you're going to take budget from say appliance manufacturer and move it to a distributed edge and you're going to hopefully save some money while you do it. Um, you're going to do it at scale. You're gonna do it at, you know, high throughput and the security is the same or better. So that's, that's one, that's one place to take capital from. The other one is to say, can I use the next computer? Yes. Because I don't have to deploy these other new computers behind this stack of firewalls. Is there agility there? Is there efficiency, um, on my buying less servers and using, you know, more of what I have and doing it, you know, able to deploy faster. >>And it's harder to quantify. I think if you could, you know, over time, see I bought 20% less server, uh, capacity or, you know, x86 capacity, that's a savings. And the other one that's very hard to quantify, but it's always nice to have the development community. And we've had it recently where they say, Hey, this took me a month to deploy instead of a year. Um, and you know, the purchase cycles, uh, you know, for procurement and deployment, they're long, you know, in enterprise you want them to be quick, but they're really not. So all of those things add up. And that's the story. You know, I would tell, you know, any manager, right? Yeah, >>yeah. I think, you know, the old historic way that utilization rates were just so, so, so, so low between CPU and memory, everything else. Cause if nothing else, because to get another box, you know, could take a long time. Yeah. Well, final, final question for you, Tony. You talked about architectures and being locked into architectures and you and you talked about you guys are already looking forward, you know, to kind of your next rev, your next release, kind of your next step forwards. What, where do you see kind of the direction, don't give away any secrets, but um, you know, kind of where you guys going. What are your priorities now that you've launched? You got a little bit more money in the bank. >>Well, our biggest priorities will be to focus on customer success is to make sure that the customer journey is indeed replicable at scale, is to enable the partner's success. Uh, so in addition to Goldman Sachs, the ability to go and replicate it across the federated markets, whether it's global financial services, healthcare, federal, and partnering with each B enterprise so that they can on their platform, amplify the value of this architecture, not just on the compute platforms but on, in other areas. And the third one clearly is for our cloud customers is to make sure that they are in a position to build a world class cloud architecture on top of which then they can build their own, deliver their own services, their own secret sauces, uh, so that they can Excel at whatever that cloud is. Whether it's to become the leading edge platform as a service customer, whether it is to be the leading edge of software's a service platform customer. So it's all about the execution as a, as you heard in that room. And that's fundamentally what we're going to strive to be, is to be a great execution machine and keep our heads down and focused on making our customers and our partners very successful. >>Well, certainly, congratulations again to you and the team on the launch today. And Josh, thank you for hosting this terrific event and being an early customer. Yeah. Yeah. Happy to be. Alright. I'm Jetta. Sone. Josh, we're the topic. Goldman Sachs at the Penn Sandow the new welcome to the new edge. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley. HOLLOWAY ALTO, California It is a cube conversation. >> Welcome to this. Keep conversation here in Palo Alto, California. Keep studios. I'm John for the host of the Cube were with Cuba Lum nine. Special gas *** while the president of products and marking it in from Attica. I make great to see you has been a while, but a couple months. How's things good to be >> back has always >> welcome back. Okay, so in dramatic, a world's coming up. We have a whole segment on that, but we've been covering you guys for a long, long time. Data is at the center the value proposition. Again and again, it's Maur amplified. Now the fog is lifting. Show in the world is now seeing what we think we were told about four years ago with data. What's new? What's that? What's the big trends going on that you guys air doubling down on what's new? What's changed? Here's the update. Sure, >> I think we've been talking for the last couple of years. I think you're right. It is becoming more and more important. I think three things we see a lot one is. Obviously you saw this whole world of district transformation. I think that definitely has picked up so much steam. Now. I mean, every company's going digital and And that the officer, that creates a whole new paradigm shift for companies to come almost recreate themselves remained. And so that data becomes the new definition. And that's what we call the thing is you side and fanatical even before the data three dollar word. But data is the center of everything, right? And in basically see the volume of data growth, you know, the utilization of data to make decisions, whether it's, you know, a decision on the shop floor decisions basically related to a cyber security or whatever it is on the keel of your signal is different now. Is the hole e. I assisted data management. I mean the scale ofthe complexity, the scale of growth, you know, multi cloud, multi platform, all the stuff that's in front of us. It's very difficult to run the old way of doing things. So that's where we see the one thing that we see a whole lot is is becoming a lot more mainstream still early days. But it's assisting the whole ability for companies to what I call exploit data to really become a lot more transformative. >> You've been on this for a while again. We get what we had to go back to. The Cube archives were almost pullout clips from two years ago be relevant today. You know the data control understanding. You know that. You know, I understand where the date of governance is ours. So is the foundational thing. But you guys nailed the chat box. You've been doing a Iot of previous announcements. This is putting a lot of pressure on you. The president of products you got. Get this out there. What's new? What's happening inside in from Attica? He's pedaling as fast as you can. What are some of the updates? Give >> us the best example. I was just like the duck, right? You know, you're really selling your Felix comma the top and then you're really finally I think it's great for us. I think I look a tw ee eye ee eye. It's like this so much fun around machine learning. We look at it, it's two different ways. One is how we leverage machine learning Vidin our products to help our customers, making it easy for them to. As I said, so many different data types Think of I ot data instructor data streaming data. How do you bring all that stuff together and married with your existing transaction? It'LL make sense. So we're leveraging a lot of machine learning to make the internal products a lot more easier to consume. A lot more smarter, a lot more. Richard, The second thing is that we what we call his are a clear which we are. Really? If you remember a couple years ago and in America World, how guard then helps our customers make smarter decisions in the in the one of data signs and all these new data workbench is, you know, the old statistical models are only as good as they can never be. So we're leveraging, helping our customers take the value proposition of r B. I clear then what? I make things that, you know, find patterns that, you know, statistical models cannot. So, to me, I look att, both of those really leveraging ml to shape our products, which is married to a lot of innovation and then creating our eclair to that help customers make smarter decisions, easier decisions, complex decisions. Which would I kill the humans or the statistical models? >> Really Well, this is the balance between machines and humans working together. And you guys have nailed this before. And I think this was two years ago. I started to hear the words land adopt, expand from you guys. Write, which is you've got to get adoption, right? And so as you're iterating on this product, focus, you've got to get it working your >> butt looks big, maniacal focus of that. Let's talk about >> what? What you've learned there because that's a hard thing. You guys are doing well at it. We've got to get a doctor. Means you gotta listen to customers going do the course correction. What's the learning is coming out of that. That >> is actually such a good point. We made such. We were always a very customer centric company. But as you said like that, as the world shifted towards a new subscription cloud model, be really focused on helping our customers adopt our products. And you know, in this new world, customers are also struggling with new architectures and everything, so we double down on what we call customer success, making sure we can help our customers adopt the products. And whether it's it's, it's too will benefit. Our customers can value very quickly. And of course, we believe in what we call a customer for life. Our ability to then grow without customers and held them deliver value becomes a lot better, so we're really for So we have globally across the board customers, success managers, we really invest in a customer's. The moment we a customer, buys a product from us, we directly engage with them to help them understand forthis use case. How you >> implement its not just self serving. That's one thing which I appreciate because you know, how hard is it? Build products these days, especially with philosophy, have changed, but it's also we have in the large scale data. You need automation. You've gotta have machine learning. You gotta have these disciplines. Sure this both on your own, but also for the customer. Yes, any updates on the Clare and some customer learnings, and you're seeing that air turning into either use cases or best practices, >> many of them. So take a simple example, right? I mean, we think if we take these things for granted, right? I mean, taking over here to talk about I open these designs on all of these sensors. We were streaming data, right? Or even robots in the shop floor. Sort of. That data has no schema, no structure, nor definition. It's coming like Netflix data has to. And for customers, there's a lot of volume on it. None of it could be junk. Right? So how do you first think that volume of data creates some structure to it for you to do analytics? You You can only do analytics if you put some structure to it. Right. So first thing is that we leverage clear help customers create what are called scheme, and you can create some structure to it. Then what we do allow is basically clear through clear. It can naturally bring what we have. The data quality on top of it. Like how much of it is irrelevant? How much of it is noise? How much would it really make sense? So then what was you said? It signal from the noisy were helping customers get signal from the noise of data. That's where it becomes very handy because It's a very man will cumbersome, time consuming and something very difficult to do. So that's an area of every have leveraged, creating structure, adding data quality on top and finding rules that didn't probably naturally didn't exist, that you and he would be able to see machines are able to do it. And to your point, our belief is this is my one hundred percent believe we believe in the eye assisting the humans. We have given the value ofthe Claire, tow our users that it compliments you. And that's where we're trying to help our users get more productive and deliver more value faster. >> Productivity is multifold. It's like also efficiency. You don't want people wasting time on project that can be automated. You focus that valuable resource somewhere else. Yeah, okay, so let's shift gears on. Taking from Attica World coming up. Let's spend some time on that. What's the focus this year? The show. It's coming up right around the corner. What's going to focus on what's going to be the agenda? What's on the plate >> give you a quick sense of how it's the shape of its going to be our biggest in from Attica well, so it's twentieth year again. Back in Vegas, you know we love Vegas. Of course, we have obviously a couple of days line up over there and you guys will be there too Great sort of speakers. So obviously we'LL have mean stage speakers like so we'LL have some CEO of Google Cloud Thomas Korean is going to be there We'LL have on main stage with Neil We'LL have the CEO of dealer Breaks Ali with me We'LL also have the CMO off a ws ariel there. Then we have a couple of customers lined up Simon from Credit Suisse Daniels CD over Nissan. We also have the head of the eye salmon Guggenheimer from Microsoft, as well as the chief product officer of Tableau Francois on means. So we have a great lineup of speakers, customers and some of our very, very strategic partners with us. Remember last year we also had Scott country. That means too eighty plus session's pretty much a ninety percent led by customers. We have seventy to eighty customers. Presentable sessions, technical business. We have all kinds of tracks. We have hands on labs. We have learnings. Customers really want to come. Lana products. Talked to the experts someone to talk to the product manager. Someone talk to the engineers literally, so many hands on lab. So it's going to be a full blown a couple of days. What's >> the pitch for someone watching that has never been in from Attica world? Why should they come for the show? >> I always tell them three things. Number one is that it's a user conference for our customers to known all things about data management. And then, of course, in that context, they learned a lot about so they learned a lot about the industry. So Dave one we kicked around by market perspective giving Assessor the market is going, how everybody should be stepping back from the data and understanding. Where are these district transformation? E I? Where is the world of detail going? We have some great analysts coming, talking, some customers talking. We'LL be talking about futures over there. Then it is all about hands on learning, right, learning about the product hearing from some of these experts, right from the industry experts as well as our customers teaching what to do, what not to do and networking. It's always great to network writes a great place for people to learn from each other. So it's a great forum for for two of those three things. But the team this year is all around here. I talked about clear. In fact, our tagline Dissidents, clarity unleashed. I really want to, basically has been developing for the last couple of years. It's become becoming a lot who means stream for us in our offerings. And this year we really are taking it being stream. So it's kinda like unleashing it where everybody can genuinely use a truly use it from the data data management. Active >> clarity is a great team. I mean plays on Claire, But this is what we're starting to see. Some visibility into some clear economic benefits, business benefits, technical benefits, kind of all starting to come in. How would you categorize those three years? Because, you know, that's generally the consensus these days is that what was once a couple years ago was like foggy. When you see now you're starting to see that lift. You see economic, business and technical benefits. >> To me, it's all about economic and business. Anniversary technology plays a role in driving value for the business, my gramophone believing that right? And if you think about some of the trans today, right, ah, billion users are coming into play. That he be assisted by data is doubling every year. You know, the volume of data and and amount ofthe amount off. And I obviously business users today. I mean, when I run a business I want, I always say, tomorrow's data yesterday to make a decision. Today it's just in time, and that's where it comes into play. So our goal is to help organizations transformed themselves truly, you know, be more productive, produce operational cost by the government and compliance that's becoming such a mainstream topic. It's not just basically making analytical decisions. How do you make sure that your data is safe and secure? You don't want to get basically hit by any of these cyberattacks. They're all coming after data. So governance and compliance of data that's becoming but in the end got stored on the >> data thing. Yeah, I wanna get your reactions. You mention some shots like some stats here. Date explosion fifteen point three's added bytes per year in traffic, five million business data users and growing twenty billion connected devices. One billion workers will be assisted by learning. So no thanks for putting those stats, but I want to get your reactors. Some of these other points here, eighty percent of enterprises air that we're looking at multi cloud. They're really evaluating their where the data sits in that kind of equation short. And then the other thing is that the responsibility and role of the chief data? Yes, these air new dynamic. I think you guys will be addressing that. And because organizational stuff dynamics, skill, gaps are issues. But also you have multi clouds form. >> And that's a big thing. I mean, look thin. The old World John hatred Unite is always too large in the price is right, and it's going to stay here. In fact, I think it's not just cloud. Think of it this way, one promised. Ilya is not going away. It's producing in school. But then you have this multi cloud world sassafras pass halves infrastructure. If I'm a customer, I want to do all of it. But the biggest problem comes, you said, is that my data is everywhere. How do I make sense of it? And then how do I go on it like my customer data sitting somewhat in this *** up in that platform in this on prime application transaction after running hardware Connect three. And how do I make sense? It doesn't get. I can have a governance and control around it. That's where data management becomes more important but more complex. But that's where it comes into making it easier. One of the things we've seen a lot of you touched upon is the rise of the Sirio. In fact, we have Danielle from the Sanchez, a CD off Mr North America on Main Stage, talking about her rule and how they've leveraged data to transform themselves. That is something we're seeing a lot more because you know, the rule of the city or making sure there is, You know, not only a sense of governance and compliance, a sense of how to even understand the value of dude across an enterprise again. I see one of the things we're gonna talk about this. It's old system thinking around data. We call it system, thinking three daughter data is becoming a platform C. There was always that the hard way earlier, whether it is server or computer. We believe that data is becoming a platform in itself. Whether you think about it in terms of scary, in terms ofthe governance, in terms of e i times a privacy, you have to think of data as a platform. That's the that's the other. But >> I think that is very powerful statement, and I'd like to get your thoughts. You know, we've had many countries. Is on camera off camera around product. Silicon Valley Venture Capital. How come started to create value. One of the old adage is used to be build a platform. That's your competitive strategy. There were a platform company, and >> that was a >> strategic competitive advantage that is unique to the company. And they created enablement. Facebook's a great example. Monetize all the data from users. Look where they are short. If you think about platforms today, Charlie, it seems to be table stakes. Not as a competitive is more of a foundational element of all businesses, not just startups enterprises. This seems to be a common thread. Do you agree with that that platforms were becoming table stakes? Because if we have to think like systems people, whether it's an enterprise show supplier ballistically the platform becomes stable. States that could be on primary cloud. Your reactions >> are gonna agree that I'll say it slightly differently. Yes, I think I think platform is a critical competent for any enterprise when they think of their entire technology strategy because you can't do peace feels otherwise. You become a system integrated over your own right. But it's not easy to be a platform clear itself, right? Because it's a platform player. The responsibility of what you have to offer your customer becomes a lot bigger. So we always t have this intelligent in a platform. Uh, but the other thing is that the rule of the platform is different. It has to be very modeling and FBI driven. Nobody wants to buy a monolithic platform. I don't want as an enterprise it on my own. I'm gonna implement five years a platform you want. It's gonna be like a Lego block. Okay? You It builds by itself, not monolithic, very driven my micro services based And that's our belief that in the new World, yes, black form is very critical for youto accelerate your district transformation journeys or data driven district transformation journeys but the platform better be FBI driven micro services based, very nimble that it's not a precursor to value creation but creates value as you want. It's >> all kind of depends on the customer. Get up a thin, foundational data platform from you guys, for instance. And then what you're saying is composed off >> different continents. For example, you have a data integration platform, then you can do the quality on top. You do. You could do master data management on top. You can provide governance. You can provide privacy. You could do cataloging it all builds its not like Oh my gosh, I have to go do all these things over the course of five years. Then I'LL get value. You gotta create value all along. Today's customers want value like in two months. Three months. You don't wait for a year or >> two years. This is exactly why I think the kind of Operation Storm systems mindset that you're referring to. This is kind of enterprises. They're behaving others the way that you see on premise, thinking around data and cloud multi cloud emerging. It's a systems view of distributed computing with the right block Lego blocks >> that that's what I believe is. That's what we heard from customers. He r I spend most of my time traveling, talking to customers on my way to try to understand what customers want today. And you know some of this late and demand that they have it. They can't sometimes articulate my job. I always end up on the road most of the time just to hearing customers, and that's what they want. They want exactly appoint a platform that Bill's not monolithic, but they don't want the platform. They do want to make it easy for them not to do everything piecemeal. Every project is a data project, whether it's a customer experience project, whether it's the government's project, whether it is nothing else but an analytical. It's a data project, but you don't want to repeat it every time. That's what they want, >> but I know you got a hard stuff, but I want your thoughts on this because I've heard the word workload mentioned so many more times these in the past year. It was a tad cloud of all the cute conversation with a word workload was mentioned to be the biggest fund. Yes, work has been around for a while, but nice seeing more and more workloads coming on. Yeah, that's more important for day that we're close to being tied into the data absolutely, and then sharing data cross multiple workloads. That's a big focus. Perhaps you see that same thing. >> We absolutely see that, Onda. The unique thing that we see also that new work towards getting created and the old workloads are not going away, which is where the hybrid becomes very important. See, these serve large enterprises and their goal is to have an hybrid. So, you know, I'm running a old transaction workload over here. I want to have an experimental workload. I want to start a new book. I want all of them to talk to each other. I don't want them to become silos. And that's when they look to us to say connect the dots for me. You can be in the cloud as an example. Our cloud platform, you know, last time and fanatical will remember we talked about like it wasn't five trillion transactions a month, but it's double that it to pen trillion transaction a month growing like crazy. But our traditional workload is also still there. So we connect the dots for customers. >> I mean, thank you for coming on sharing the insights house. You guys doing well? You got three thousand developers, billions in revenue. Thanks for coming. Appreciate the insight. And looking for Adrian from Attica World. Thank you very much. Meanwhile, here inside the Cuban shot furry with cute conversation in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching.