>> Announcer: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome back to theCube's first day of coverage of MWC 23 from Barcelona, Spain. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante and Dave Nicholson. I'm literally in between two Daves. We've had a great first day of coverage of the event. There's been lots of conversations, Dave, on disaggregation, on the change of mobility. I want to be able to get your perspectives from both of you on what you saw on the show floor, what you saw and heard from our guests today. So we'll start with you, Dave V. What were some of the things that were our takeaways from day one for you? >> Well, the big takeaway is the event itself. On day one, you get a feel for what this show is like. Now that we're back, face-to-face kind of pretty much full face-to-face. A lot of excitement here. 2000 plus exhibitors, I mean, planes, trains, automobiles, VR, AI, servers, software, I mean everything. I mean, everybody is here. So it's a really comprehensive show. It's not just about mobile. That's why they changed the name from Mobile World Congress. I think the other thing is from the keynotes this morning, I mean, you heard, there's a lot of, you know, action around the telcos and the transformation, but in a lot of ways they're sort of protecting their existing past from the future. And so they have to be careful about how fast they move. But at the same time if they don't move fast, they're going to get disrupted. We heard some complaints, essentially, you know, veiled complaints that the over the top guys aren't paying their fair share and Telco should be able to charge them more. We heard the chairman of Ericsson talk about how we can't let the OTTs do that again. We're going to charge directly for access through APIs to our network, to our data. We heard from Chris Lewis. Yeah. They've only got, or maybe it was San Ji Choha, how they've only got eight APIs. So, you know the developers are the ones who are going to actually build out the innovation at the edge. The telcos are going to provide the connectivity and the infrastructure companies like Dell as well. But it's really to me all about the developers. And that's where the action's going to be. And it's going to be interesting to see how the developers respond to, you know, the gun to the head. If you want access, you're going to have to pay for it. Now maybe there's so much money to be made that they'll go for it, but I feel like there's maybe a different model. And I think some of the emerging telcos are going to say, you know what, here developers, here's a platform, have at it. We're not going to charge you for all the data until you succeed. Then we're going to figure out a monetization model. >> Right. A lot of opportunity for the developer. That skillset is certainly one that's in demand here. And certainly the transformation of the telecom industry is, there's a lot of conundrums that I was hearing going on today, kind of chicken and egg scenarios. But Dave, you had a chance to walk around the show floor. We were here interviewing all day. What were some of the things that you saw that really stuck out to you? >> I think I was struck by how much attention was being paid to private 5G networks. You sort of read between the lines and it appears as though people kind of accept that the big incumbent telecom players are going to be slower to move. And this idea of things like open RAN where you're leveraging open protocols in a stack to deliver more agility and more value. So it sort of goes back to the generalized IT discussion of moving to cloud for agility. It appears as though a lot of players realize that the wild wild west, the real opportunity, is in the private sphere. So it's really interesting to see how that works, how 5G implemented into an environment with wifi how that actually works. It's really interesting. >> So it's, obviously when you talk to companies like Dell, I haven't hit HPE yet. I'm going to go over there and check out their booth. They got an analyst thing going on but it's really early days for them. I mean, they started in this business by taking an X86 box, putting a name on it, you know, that sounded like it was edged, throwing it over, you know, the wall. That's sort of how they all started in this business. And now they're, you know, but they knew they had to form partnerships. They had to build purpose-built systems. Now with 16 G out, you're seeing that. And so it's still really early days, talking about O RAN, open RAN, the open RAN alliance. You know, it's just, I mean, not even, the game hasn't even barely started yet but we heard from Dish today. They're trying to roll out a massive 5G network. Rakuten is really focused on sort of open RAN that's more reliable, you know, or as reliable as the existing networks but not as nearly as huge a scale as Dish. So it's going to take a decade for this to evolve. >> Which is surprising to the average consumer to hear that. Because as far as we know 5G has been around for a long time. We've been talking about 5G, implementing 5G, you sort of assume it's ubiquitous but the reality is it is just the beginning. >> Yeah. And you know, it's got a fake 5G too, right? I mean you see it on your phone and you're like, what's the difference here? And it's, you know, just, >> Dave N.: What does it really mean? >> Right. And so I think your point about private is interesting, the conversation Dave that we had earlier, I had throughout, hey I don't think it's a replacement for wifi. And you said, "well, why not?" I guess it comes down to economics. I mean if you can get the private network priced close enough then you're right. Why wouldn't it replace wifi? Now you got wifi six coming in. So that's a, you know, and WiFi's flexible, it's cheap, it's good for homes, good for offices, but these private networks are going to be like kickass, right? They're going to be designed to run whatever, warehouses and robots, and energy drilling facilities. And so, you know the economics I don't think are there today but maybe they can be at volume. >> Maybe at some point you sort of think of today's science experiment becoming the enterprise-grade solution in the future. I had a chance to have some conversations with folks around the show. And I think, and what I was surprised by was I was reminded, frankly, I wasn't surprised. I was reminded that when we start talking about 5G, we're talking about spectrum that is managed by government entities. Of course all broadcast, all spectrum, is managed in one way or another. But in particular, you can't simply put a SIM in every device now because there are a lot of regulatory hurdles that have to take place. So typically what these things look like today is 5G backhaul to the network, communication from that box to wifi. That's a huge improvement already. So yeah, my question about whether, you know, why not put a SIM in everything? Maybe eventually, but I think, but there are other things that I was not aware of that are standing in the way. >> Your point about spectrum's an interesting one though because private networks, you're going to be able to leverage that spectrum in different ways, and tune it essentially, use different parts of the spectrum, make it programmable so that you can apply it to that specific use case, right? So it's going to be a lot more flexible, you know, because I presume the needs spectrum needs of a hospital are going to be different than, you know, an agribusiness are going to be different than a drilling, you know, unit, offshore drilling unit. And so the ability to have the flexibility to use the spectrum in different ways and apply it to that use case, I think is going to be powerful. But I suspect it's going to be expensive initially. I think the other thing we talked about is public policy and regulation, and it's San Ji Choha brought up the point, is telcos have been highly regulated. They don't just do something and ask for permission, you know, they have to work within the confines of that regulated environment. And there's a lot of these greenfield companies and private networks that don't necessarily have to follow those rules. So that's a potential disruptive force. So at the same time, the telcos are spending what'd we hear, a billion, a trillion and a half over the next seven years? Building out 5G networks. So they got to figure out, you know how to get a payback on that. They'll get it I think on connectivity, 'cause they have a monopoly but they want more. They're greedy. They see the over, they see the Netflixes of the world and the Googles and the Amazons mopping up services and they want a piece of that action but they've never really been good at it. >> Well, I've got a question for both of you. I mean, what do you think the odds are that by the time the Shangri La of fully deployed 5G happens that we have so much data going through it that effectively it feels exactly the same as 3G? What are the odds? >> That's a good point. Well, the thing that gets me about 5G is there's so much of it on, if I go to the consumer side when we're all consumers in our daily lives so much of it's marketing hype. And, you know all the messaging about that, when it's really early innings yet they're talking about 6G. What does actual fully deployed 5G look like? What is that going to enable a hospital to achieve or an oil refinery out in the middle of the ocean? That's something that interests me is what's next for that? Are we going to hear that at this event? >> I mean, walking around, you see a fair amount of discussion of, you know, the internet of things. Edge devices, the increase in connectivity. And again, what I was surprised by was that there's very little talk about a sim card in every one of those devices at this point. It's like, no, no, no, we got wifi to handle all that but aggregating it back into a central network that's leveraging 5G. That's really interesting. That's really interesting. >> I think you, the odds of your, to go back to your question, I think the odds are even money, that by the time it's all built out there's going to be so much data and so much new capability it's going to work similarly at similar speeds as we see in the networks today. You're just going to be able to do so many more things. You know, and your video's going to look better, the graphics are going to look better. But I think over the course of history, this is what's happening. I mean, even when you go back to dial up, if you were in an AOL chat room in 1996, it was, you know, yeah it took a while. You're like, (screeches) (Lisa laughs) the modem and everything else, but once you were in there- >> Once you're there, 2400 baud. >> It was basically real time. And so you could talk to your friends and, you know, little chat room but that's all you could do. You know, if you wanted to watch a video, forget it, right? And then, you know, early days of streaming video, stop, start, stop, start, you know, look at Amazon Prime when it first started, Prime Video was not that great. It's sort of catching up to Netflix. But, so I think your point, that question is really prescient because more data, more capability, more apps means same speed. >> Well, you know, you've used the phrase over the top. And so just just so we're clear so we're talking about the same thing. Typically we're talking about, you've got, you have network providers. Outside of that, you know, Netflix, internet connection, I don't need Comcast, right? Perfect example. Well, what about the over the top that's coming from direct satellite communications with devices. There are times when I don't have a signal on my, happens to be an Apple iPhone, when I get a little SOS satellite logo because I can communicate under very limited circumstances now directly to the satellite for very limited text messaging purposes. Here at the show, I think it might be a Motorola device. It's a dongle that allows any mobile device to leverage direct satellite communication. Again, for texting back to the 2,400 baud modem, you know, days, 1200 even, 300 even, go back far enough. What's that going to look like? Is that too far in the future to think that eventually it's all going to be over the top? It's all going to be handset to satellite and we don't need these RANs anymore. It's all going to be satellite networks. >> Dave V.: I think you're going to see- >> Little too science fiction-y? (laughs) >> No, I, no, I think it's a good question and I think you're going to see fragments. I think you're going to see fragmentation of private networks. I think you're going to see fragmentation of satellites. I think you're going to see legacy incumbents kind of hanging on, you know, the cable companies. I think that's coming. I think by 2030 it'll, the picture will be much more clear. The question is, and I think it's come down to the innovation on top, which platform is going to be the most developer friendly? Right, and you know, I've not heard anything from the big carriers that they're going to be developer friendly. I've heard "we have proprietary data that we're going to charge access for and developers are going to have to pay for that." But I haven't heard them saying "Developers, developers, developers!" You know, Steve Bomber running around, like bend over backwards for developers, they're asking the developers to bend over. And so if a network can, let's say the satellite network is more developer friendly, you know, you're going to see more innovation there potentially. You know, or if a dish network says, "You know what? We're going after developers, we're going after innovation. We're not going to gouge them for all this network data. Rather we're going to make the platform open or maybe we're going to do an app store-like model where we take a piece of the action after they succeed." You know, take it out of the backend, like a Silicon Valley VC as opposed to an East Coast VC. They're not going to get you in the front end. (Lisa laughs) >> Well, you can see the sort of disruptive forces at play between open RAN and the legacy, call it proprietary stack, right? But what is the, you know, if that's sort of a horizontal disruptive model, what's the vertically disruptive model? Is it private networks coming in? Is it a private 5G network that comes in that says, "We're starting from the ground up, everything is containerized. We're going to go find people at KubeCon who are, who understand how to orchestrate with Kubernetes and use containers in microservices, and we're going to have this little 5G network that's going to deliver capabilities that you can't get from the big boys." Is there a way to monetize that? Is there a way for them to be disrupted, be disruptive, or are these private 5G networks that everybody's talking about just relegated to industrial use cases where you're just squeezing better economics out of wireless communication amongst all your devices in your factory? >> That's an interesting question. I mean, there are a lot of those smart factory industrial use cases. I mean, it's basically industry 4.0 use cases. But yeah, I don't count the cloud guys out. You know, everybody says, "oh, the narrative is, well, the latency of the cloud." Well, not if the cloud is at the edge. If you take a local zone and put storage, compute, and data right next to each other and the cloud model with the cloud APIs, and then you got an asynchronous, you know, connection back. I think that's a reasonable model. I think the cloud guys figured out developers, right? Pretty well. Certainly Microsoft and, and Amazon and Google, they know developers. I don't see any reason why they can't bring their model to the edge. So, and that's really disruptive to the legacy telco guys, you know? So they have to be careful. >> One step closer to my dream of eliminating the word "cloud" from IT lexicon. (Lisa laughs) I contend that it has always been IT, and it will always be IT. And this whole idea of cloud, what is cloud? If AWS, for example, is delivering hardware to the edge where it needs to be, is that cloud? Do we go back to the idea that cloud is an operational model and not a question of physical location? I hope we get to that point. >> Well, what's Apex and GreenLake? Apex is, you know, Dell's as a service. GreenLake is- >> HPE. >> HPE's as a service. That's outposts. >> Dave N.: Right. >> Yeah. >> That's their outpost. >> Yeah. >> Well AWS's position used to be, you know, to use them as a proxy for hyperscale cloud. We'll just, we'll grow in a very straight trajectory forever on the back of net new stuff. Forget about the old stuff. As James T. Kirk said of the Klingons, "let them die." (Lisa laughs) As far as the cloud providers were concerned just, yeah, let, let that old stuff go away. Well then they found out, there came a point in time where they realized there's a lot of friction and stickiness associated with that. So they had to deal with the reality of hybridity, if that's the word, the hybrid nature of things. So what are they doing? They're pushing stuff out to the edge, so... >> With the same operating model. >> With the same operating model. >> Similar. I mean, it's limited, right? >> So you see- >> You can't run a lot of database on outpost, you can run RES- >> You see this clash of Titans where some may have written off traditional IT infrastructure vendors, might have been written off as part of the past. Whereas hyperscale cloud providers represent the future. It seems here at this show they're coming head to head and competing evenly. >> And this is where I think a company like Dell or HPE or Cisco has some advantages in that they're not going to compete with the telcos, but the hyperscalers will. >> Lisa: Right. >> Right. You know, and they're already, Google's, how much undersea cable does Google own? A lot. Probably more than anybody. >> Well, we heard from Google and Microsoft this morning in the keynote. It'd be interesting to see if we hear from AWS and then over the next couple of days. But guys, clearly there is, this is a great wrap of day one. And the crazy thing is this is only day one. We've got three more days of coverage, more news, more information to break down and unpack on theCUBE. Look forward to doing that with you guys over the next three days. Thank you for sharing what you saw on the show floor, what you heard from our guests today as we had about 10 interviews. Appreciate your insights and your perspectives and can't wait for tomorrow. >> Right on. >> All right. For Dave Vellante and Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's day one wrap from MWC 23. We'll see you tomorrow. (relaxing music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's day one coverage of Cloud Native SecurityCon 2023. This has been a great conversation that we've been able to be a part of today. Lisa Martin with John Furrier and Dave Vellante. Dave and John, I want to get your take on the conversations that we had today, starting with the keynote that we were able to see. What are your thoughts? We talked a lot about technology. We also talked a lot about people and culture. John, starting with you, what's the story here with this inaugural event? >> Well, first of all, there's two major threads. One is the breakout of a new event from CloudNativeCon/KubeCon, which is a very successful community and events that they do international and in North America. And that's not stopping. So that's going to be continuing to go great. This event is a breakout with an extreme focus on security and all things security around that ecosystem. And with extensions into the Linux Foundation. We heard Brian Behlendorf was on there from the Linux Foundation. So he was involved in Hyperledger. So not just Cloud Native, all things containers, Kubernetes, all things Linux Foundation as an open source. So, little bit more of a focus. So I like that piece of it. The other big thread on this story is what Dave and Yves were talking about on our panel we had earlier, which was the business model of security is real and that is absolutely happening. It's impacting business today. So you got this, let's build as fast as possible, let's retool, let's replatform, refactor and then the reality of the business imperative. To me, those are the two big high-order bits that are going on and that's the reality of this current situation. >> Dave, what are your top takeaways from today's day one inaugural coverage? >> Yeah, I would add a third leg of the stool to what John said and that's what we were talking about several times today about the security is a do-over. The Pat Gelsinger quote, from what was that, John, 2011, 2012? And that's right around the time that the cloud was hitting this steep part of the S-curve and do-over really has meant in looking back, leveraging cloud native tooling, and cloud native technologies, which are different than traditional security approaches because it has to take into account the unique characteristics of the cloud whether that's dynamic resource allocation, unlimited resources, microservices, containers. And while that has helped solve some problems it also brings new challenges. All these cloud native tools, securing this decentralized infrastructure that people are dealing with and really trying to relearn the security culture. And that's kind of where we are today. >> I think the other thing too that I had Dave is that was we get other guests on with a diverse opinion around foundational models with AI and machine learning. You're going to see a lot more things come in to accelerate the scale and automation piece of it. It is one thing that CloudNativeCon and KubeCon has shown us what the growth of cloud computing is is that containers Kubernetes and these new services are powering scale. And scale you're going to need to have automation and machine learning and AI will be a big part of that. So you start to see the new formation of stacks emerging. So foundational stacks is the machine learning and data apps are coming out. It's going to start to see more apps coming. So I think there's going to be so many new applications and services are going to emerge, and if you don't get your act together on the infrastructure side those apps will not be fully baked. >> And obviously that's a huge risk. Sorry, Dave, go ahead. >> No, that's okay. So there has to be hardware somewhere. You can't get away with no hardware. But increasingly the security architecture like everything else is, is software-defined and makes it a lot more flexible. And to the extent that practitioners and organizations can consolidate this myriad of tools that they have, that means they're going to have less trouble learning new skills, they're going to be able to spend more time focused and become more proficient on the tooling that is being applied. And you're seeing the same thing on the vendor side. You're seeing some of these large vendors, Palo Alto, certainly CrowdStrike and fundamental to their strategy is to pick off more and more and more of these areas in security and begin to consolidate them. And right now, that's a big theme amongst organizations. We know from the survey data that consolidating redundant vendors is the number one cost saving priority today. Along with, at a distant second, optimizing cloud costs, but consolidating redundant vendors there's nowhere where that's more prominent than in security. >> Dave, talk a little bit about that, you mentioned the practitioners and obviously this event bottoms up focused on the practitioners. It seems like they're really in the driver's seat now. With this being the inaugural Cloud Native SecurityCon, first time it's been pulled out of an elevated out of KubeCon as a focus, do you think this is about time that the practitioners are in the driver's seat? >> Well, they're certainly, I mean, we hear about all the tech layoffs. You're not laying off your top security pros and if you are, they're getting picked up very quickly. So I think from that standpoint, anybody who has deep security expertise is in the driver's seat. The problem is that driver's seat is pretty hairy and you got to have the stomach for it. I mean, these are technical heroes, if you will, on the front lines, literally saving the world from criminals and nation-states. And so yes, I think Lisa they have been in the driver's seat for a while, but it it takes a unique person to drive at those speeds. >> I mean, the thing too is that the cloud native world that we are living in comes from cloud computing. And if you look at this, what is a practitioner? There's multiple stakeholders that are being impacted and are vulnerable in the security front at many levels. You have application developers, you got IT market, you got security, infrastructure, and network and whatever. So all that old to new is happening. So if you look at IT, that market is massive. That's still not transformed yet to cloud. So you have companies out there literally fully exposed to ransomware. IT teams that are having practices that are antiquated and outdated. So security patching, I mean the blocking and tackling of the old securities, it's hard to even support that old environment. So in this transition from IT to cloud is changing everything. And so practitioners are impacted from the devs and the ones that get there faster and adopt the ways to make their business better, whether you call it modern technology and architectures, will be alive and hopefully thriving. So that's the challenge. And I think this security focus hits at the heart of the reality of business because like I said, they're under threats. >> I wanted to pick up too on, I thought Brian Behlendorf, he did a forward looking what could become the next problem that we really haven't addressed. He talked about generative AI, automating spearphishing and he flat out said the (indistinct) is not fixed. And so identity access management, again, a lot of different toolings. There's Microsoft, there's Okta, there's dozens of companies with different identity platforms that practitioners have to deal with. And then what he called free riders. So these are folks that go into the repos. They're open source repos, and they find vulnerabilities that developers aren't hopping on quickly. It's like, you remember Patch Tuesday. We still have Patch Tuesday. That meant Hacker Wednesday. It's kind of the same theme there going into these repos and finding areas where the practitioners, the developers aren't responding quickly enough. They just don't necessarily have the resources. And then regulations, public policy being out of alignment with what's really needed, saying, "Oh, you can't ship that fix outside of Germany." Or I'm just making this up, but outside of this region because of a law. And you could be as a developer personally liable for it. So again, while these practitioners are in the driver's seat, it's a hairy place to be. >> Dave, we didn't get the word supercloud in much on this event, did we? >> Well, I'm glad you brought that up because I think security is the big single, biggest challenge for supercloud, securing the supercloud with all the diversity of tooling across clouds and I think you brought something up in the first supercloud, John. You said, "Look, ultimately the cloud, the hyperscalers have to lean in. They are going to be the enablers of supercloud. They already are from an infrastructure standpoint, but they can solve this problem by working together. And I think there needs to be more industry collaboration. >> And I think the point there is that with security the trend will be, in my opinion, you'll see security being reborn in the cloud, around zero trust as structure, and move from an on-premise paradigm to fully cloud native. And you're seeing that in the network side, Dave, where people are going to each cloud and building stacks inside the clouds, hyperscaler clouds that are completely compatible end-to-end with on-premises. Not trying to force the cloud to be working with on-prem. They're completely refactoring as cloud native first. And again, that's developer first, that's data first, that's security first. So to me that's the tell sign. To me is if when you see that, that's good. >> And Lisa, I think the cultural conversation that you've brought into these discussions is super important because I've said many times, bad user behavior is going to trump good security every time. So that idea that the entire organization is responsible for security. You hear that all the time. Well, what does that mean? It doesn't mean I have to be a security expert, it just means I have to be smart. How many people actually use a VPN? >> So I think one of the things that I'm seeing with the cultural change is face-to-face problem solving is one, having remote teams is another. The skillset is big. And I think the culture of having these teams, Dave mentioned something about intramural sports, having the best people on the teams, from putting captains on the jersey of security folks is going to happen. I think you're going to see a lot more of that going on because there's so many areas to work on. You're going to start to see security embedded in all processes. >> Well, it needs to be and that level of shared responsibility is not trivial. That's across the organization. But they're also begs the question of the people problem. People are one of the biggest challenges with respect to security. Everyone has to be on board with this. It has to be coming from the top down, but also the bottom up at the same time. It's challenging to coordinate. >> Well, the training thing I think is going to solve itself in good time. And I think in the fullness of time, if I had to predict, you're going to see managed services being a big driver on the front end, and then as companies realize where their IP will be you'll see those managed service either be a core competency of their business and then still leverage. So I'm a big believer in managed services. So you're seeing Kubernetes, for instance, a lot of managed services. You'll start to see more, get the ball going, get that rolling, then build. So Dave mentioned bottoms up, middle out, that's how transformation happens. So I think managed services will win from here, but ultimately the business model stuff is so critical. >> I'm glad you brought up managed services and I want to add to that managed security service providers, because I saw a stat last year, 50% of organizations in the US don't even have a security operations team. So managed security service providers MSSPs are going to fill the gap, especially for small and midsize companies and for those larger companies that just need to augment and compliment their existing staff. And so those practitioners that we've been talking about, those really hardcore pros, they're going to go into these companies, some large, the big four, all have them. Smaller companies like Arctic Wolf are going to, I think, really play a key role in this decade. >> I want to get your opinion Dave on what you're hoping to see from this event as we've talked about the first inaugural standalone big focus here on security as a standalone. Obviously, it's a huge challenge. What are you hoping for this event to get groundswell from the community? What are you hoping to hear and see as we wrap up day one and go into day two? >> I always say events like this they're about educating, aspiring to action. And so the practitioners that are at this event I think, I used to say they're the technical heroes. So we know there's going to be another Log4j or a another SolarWinds. It's coming. And my hope is that when that happens, it's not an if, it's a when, that the industry, these practitioners are able to respond in a way that's safe and fast and agile and they're able to keep us protected, number one and number two, that they can actually figure out what happened in the long tail of still trying to clean it up is compressed. That's my hope or maybe it's a dream. >> I think day two tomorrow you're going to hear more supply chain, security. You're going to start to see them focus on sessions that target areas if within the CNCF KubeCon + CloudNativeCon area that need support around containers, clusters, around Kubernetes cluster. You're going to start to see them laser focus on cleaning up the house, if you will, if you can call it cleaning up or fixing what needs to get fixed or solved what needs to get solved on the cloud native front. That's going to be urgent. And again, supply chain software as Dave mentioned, free riders too, just using open source. So I think you'll see open source continue to grow, but there'll be an emphasis on verification and certification. And Docker has done a great job with that. You've seen what they've done with their business model over hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue from a pivot. Catch a few years earlier because they verify. So I think we're going to be in this verification blue check mark of code era, of code and software. Super important bill of materials. They call SBOMs, software bill of materials. People want to know what's in their software and that's going to be, again, another opportunity for machine learning and other things. So I'm optimistic that this is going to be a good focus. >> Good. I like that. I think that's one of the things thematically that we've heard today is optimism about what this community can generate in terms of today's point. The next Log4j is coming. We know it's not if, it's when, and all organizations need to be ready to Dave's point to act quickly with agility to dial down and not become the next headline. Nobody wants to be that. Guys, it's been fun working with you on this day one event. Looking forward to day two. Lisa Martin for Dave Vellante and John Furrier. You're watching theCUBE's day one coverage of Cloud Native SecurityCon '23. We'll see you tomorrow. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone and welcome to theCUBE's coverage day one of CloudNativeSecurityCon '23. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier and Dave Vellante. Dave and John, great to have you guys on the program. This is interesting. This is the first inaugural CloudNativeSecurityCon. Formally part of KubeCon, now a separate event here happening in Seattle over the next couple of days. John, I wanted to get your take on, your thoughts on this being a standalone event, the community, the impact. >> Well, this inaugural event, which is great, we love it, we want to cover all inaugural events because you never know, there might not be one next year. So we were here if it happens, we're here at creation. But I think this is a good move for the CNCF and the Linux Foundation as security becomes so important and there's so many issues to resolve that will influence many other things. Developers, machine learning, data as code, supply chain codes. So I think KubeCon, Kubernetes conference and CloudNativeCon, is all about cloud native developers. And it's a huge event and there's so much there. There's containers, there's microservices, all that infrastructure's code, the DevSecOps on that side, there's enough there and it's a huge ecosystem. Pulling it as a separate event is a first move for them. And I think there's a toe in the water kind of vibe here. Testing the waters a little bit on, does this have legs? How is it organized? Looks like they took their time, thought it out extremely well about how to craft it. And so I think this is the beginning of what will probably be a seminal event for the open source community. So let's listen to the clip from Priyanka Sharma who's a CUBE alumni and executive director of the CNCF. This is kind of a teaser- >> We will tackle issues of security together here and further on. We'll share our experiences, successes, perhaps more importantly, failures, and help with the collecting of understanding. We'll create solutions. That's right. The practitioners are leading the way. Having conversations that you need to have. That's all of you. This conference today and tomorrow is packed with 72 sessions for all levels of technologists to reflect the bottoms up, developer first nature of the conference. The co-chairs have selected these sessions and they are true blue practitioners. >> And that's a great clip right there. If you read between the lines, what she's saying there, let's unpack this. Solutions, we're going to fail, we're going to get better. Linux, the culture of iterating. But practitioners, the mention of practitioners, that was very key. Global community, 72 sessions, co-chairs, Liz Rice and experts that are crafting this program. It seems like very similar to what AWS has done with re:Invent as their core show. And then they have re:Inforce which is their cloud native security, Amazon security show. There's enough there, so to me, practitioners, that speaks to the urgency of cloud native security. So to me, I think this is the first move, and again, testing the water. I like the vibe. I think the practitioner angle is relevant. It's very nerdy, so I think this is going to have some legs. >> Yeah, the other key phrase Priyanka mentioned is bottoms up. And John, at our predictions breaking analysis, I asked you to make a prediction about events. And I think you've nailed it. You said, "Look, we're going to have many more events, but they're going to be smaller." Most large events are going to get smaller. AWS is obviously the exception, but a lot of events like this, 500, 700, 1,000 people, that is really targeted. So instead of you take a big giant event and there's events within the event, this is going to be really targeted, really intimate and focused. And that's exactly what this is. I think your prediction nailed it. >> Well, Dave, we'll call to see the event operating system really cohesive events connected together, decoupled, and I think the Linux Foundation does an amazing job of stringing these events together to have community as the focus. And I think the key to these events in the future is having, again, targeted content to distinct user groups in these communities so they can be highly cohesive because they got to be productive. And again, if you try to have a broad, big event, no one's happy. Everyone's underserved. So I think there's an industry concept and then there's pieces tied together. And I think this is going to be a very focused event, but I think it's going to grow very fast. >> 72 sessions, that's a lot of content for this small event that the practitioners are going to have a lot of opportunity to learn from. Do you guys, John, start with you and then Dave, do you think it's about time? You mentioned John, they're dipping their toe in the water. We'll see how this goes. Do you think it's about time that we have this dedicated focus out of this community on cloud native security? >> Well, I think it's definitely time, and I'll tell you there's many reasons why. On the front lines of business, there's a business model for security hackers and breaches. The economics are in favor of the hackers. That's a real reality from ransomware to any kind of breach attacks. There's corporate governance issues that's structural challenges for companies. These are real issues operationally for companies in the enterprise. And at the same time, on the tech stack side, it's been very slow movement, like glaciers in terms of security. Things like DNS, Linux kernel, there are a lot of things in the weeds in the details of the bowels of the tech world, protocol levels that just need to be refactored. And I think you're seeing a lot of that here. It was mentioned from Brian from the Linux Foundation, mentioned Dan Kaminsky who recently passed away who found that vulnerability in BIND which is a DNS construct. That was a critical linchpin. They got to fix these things and Liz Rice is talking about the Linux kernel with the extended Berkeley Packet Filtering thing. And so this is where they're going. This is stuff that needs to be paid attention to because if they don't do it, the train of automation and machine learning is going to run wild with all kinds of automation that the infrastructure just won't be set up for. So I think there's going to be root level changes, and I think ultimately a new security stack will probably be very driven by data will be emerging. So to me, I think this is definitely worth being targeted. And I think you're seeing Amazon doing the same thing. I think this is a playbook out of AWS's event focus and I think that's right. >> Dave, what are you thoughts? >> There was a lot of talk in, again, I go back to the progression here in the last decade about what's the right regime for security? Should the CISO report to the CIO or the board, et cetera, et cetera? We're way beyond that now. I think DevSecOps is being asked to do a lot, particularly DevOps. So we hear a lot about shift left, we're hearing about protecting the runtime and the ops getting much more involved and helping them do their jobs because the cloud itself has brought a lot to the table. It's like the first line of defense, but then you've really got a lot to worry about from a software defined perspective. And it's a complicated situation. Yes, there's less hardware, yes, we can rely on the cloud, but culturally you've got a lot more people that have to work together, have to share data. And you want to remove the blockers, to use an Amazon term. And the way you do that is you really, if we talked about it many times on theCUBE. Do over, you got to really rethink the way in which you approach security and it starts with culture and team. >> Well the thing, I would call it the five C's of security. Culture, you mentioned that's a good C. You got cloud, tons of issues involved in cloud. You've got access issues, identity. you've got clusters, you got Kubernetes clusters. And then you've got containers, the fourth C. And then finally is the code itself, supply chain. So all areas of cloud native, if you take out culture, it's cloud, cluster, container, and code all have levels of security risks and new things in there that need to be addressed. So there's plenty of work to get done for sure. And again, this is developer first, bottoms up, but that's where the change comes in, Dave, from a security standpoint, you always point this out. Bottoms up and then middle out for change. But absolutely, the imperative is today the business impact is real and it's urgent and you got to pedal as fast as you can here, so I think this is going to have legs. We'll see how it goes. >> Really curious to understand the cultural impact that we see being made at this event with the focus on it. John, you mentioned the four C's, five with culture. I often think that culture is probably the leading factor. Without that, without getting those teams aligned, is the rest of it set up to be as successful as possible? I think that's a question that's- >> Well to me, Dave asked Pat Gelsinger in 2014, can security be a do-over at VMWorld when he was the CEO of VMware? He said, "Yes, it has to be." And I think you're seeing that now. And Nick from the co-founder of Palo Alto Networks was quoted on theCUBE by saying, "Zero Trust is some structure to give to security, but cloud allows for the ability to do it over and get some scale going on security." So I think the best people are going to come together in this security world and they're going to work on this. So you're going to start to see more focus around these security events and initiatives. >> So I think that when you go to the, you mentioned re:Inforce a couple times. When you go to re:Inforce, there's a lot of great stuff that Amazon puts forth there. Very positive, it's not that negative. Oh, the world is falling, the sky is falling. And so I like that. However, you don't walk away with an understanding of how they're making the CISOs and the DevOps lives easier once they get beyond the cloud. Of course, it's not Amazon's responsibility. And that's where I think the CNCF really comes in and open source, that's where they pick up. Obviously the cloud's involved, but there's a real opportunity to simplify the lives of the DevSecOps teams and that's what's critical in terms of being able to solve, or at least keep up with this never ending problem. >> Yeah, there's a lot of issues involved. I took some notes here from some of the keynote you heard. Security and education, training and team structure. Detection, incidents that are happening, and how do you respond to that architecture. Identity, isolation, supply chain, and governance and compliance. These are all real things. This is not like hand-waving issues. They're mainstream and they're urgent. Literally the houses are on fire here with the enterprise, so this is going to be very, very important. >> Lisa: That's a great point. >> Some of the other things Priyanka mentioned, exposed edges and nodes. So just when you think we're starting to solve the problem, you got IOT, security's not a one and done task. We've been talking about culture. No person is an island. It's $188 billion business. Cloud native is growing at 27% a year, which just underscores the challenges, and bottom line, practitioners are leading the way. >> Last question for you guys. What are you hoping those practitioners get out of this event, this inaugural event, John? >> Well first of all, I think this inaugural event's going to be for them, but also we at theCUBE are going to be doing a lot more security events. RSA's coming up, we're going to be at re:Inforce, we're obviously going to be covering this event. We've got Black Hat, a variety of other events. We'll probably have our own security events really focused on some key areas. So I think the thing that people are going to walk away from this event is that paying attention to these security events are going to be more than just an industry thing. I think you're going to start to see group gatherings or groups convening virtually and physically around core issues. And I think you're going to start to see a community accelerate around cloud native and open source specifically to help teams get faster and better at what they do. So I think the big walkaway for the customers and the practitioners here is that there's a call to arms happening and this is, again, another signal that it's worth breaking out from the core event, but being tied to it, I think that's a good call and I think it's a well good architecture from a CNCF standpoint and a worthy effort, so I give it a thumbs up. We still don't know what it's going to look like. We'll see what day two looks like, but it seems to be experts, practitioners, deep tech, enabling technologies. These are things that tend to be good things to hear when you're at an event. I'll say the business imperative is obvious. >> The purpose of an event like this, and it aligns with theCUBE's mission, is to educate and inspire business technology pros to action. We do it in theCUBE with free content. Obviously this event is a for-pay event, but they are delivering some real value to the community that they can take back to their organizations to make change. And that's what it's all about. >> Yep, that is what it's all about. I'm looking forward to seeing over as the months unfold, the impact that this event has on the community and the impact the community has on this event going forward, and really the adoption of cloud native security. Guys, great to have you during this keynote analysis. Looking forward to hearing the conversations that we have on theCUBE today. Thanks so much for joining. And for my guests, for my co-hosts, John Furrier and Dave Vellante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's day one coverage of CloudNativeSecurityCon '23. Stick around, we got great content on theCUBE coming up. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: "TheCUBE" presents Ignite 22. Brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >> Hey everyone. Welcome back to "TheCUBE's" live coverage of Palo Alto Network's Ignite 22 from the MGM Grand in beautiful Las Vegas. I am Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. Dave, we just had a great conversa- First of all, we got to hear the keynote, most of it. We also just had a great conversation with the CEO and chairman of Palo Alto Networks, Nikesh Arora. You know, this is a company that was founded back in 2005, he's been there four years, a lot has happened. A lot of growth, a lot of momentum in his tenure. You were saying in your breaking analysis, that they are on track to nearly double revenues from FY 20 to 23. Lots of momentum in this cloud security company. >> Yeah, I'd never met him before. I mean, I've been following a little bit. It's interesting, he came in as, sort of, a security outsider. You know, he joked today that he, the host, I forget the guy's name on the stage, what was his name? Hassan. Hassan, he said "He's the only guy in the room that knows less about security than I do." Because, normally, this is an industry that's steeped in deep expertise. He came in and I think is given a good compliment to the hardcore techies at Palo Alto Network. The company, it's really interesting. The company started out building their own data centers, they called it. Now they look back and call it cloud, but it was their own data centers, kind of like Salesforce did, it's kind of like ServiceNow. Because at the time, you really couldn't do it in the public cloud. The public cloud was a little too unknown. And so they needed that type of control. But Palo Alto's been amazing story since 2020, we wrote about this during the pandemic. So what they did, is they began to pivot to the the true cloud native public cloud, which is kind of immature still. They don't tell you that, but it's kind of still a little bit immature, but it's working. And when they were pivoting, it was around the same time, at Fortinet, who's a competitor there's like, I call 'em a poor man's Palo Alto, and Fortinet probably hates that, but it's kind of true. It's like a value play on a comprehensive platform, and you know Fortinet a little bit. And so, but what was happening is Fortinet was executing on its cloud strategy better than Palo Alto. And there was a real divergence in the valuations of these stocks. And we said at the time, we felt like Palo Alto, being the gold standard, would get through it. And they did. And what's happened is interesting, I wrote about this two weeks ago. If you go back to the pandemic, peak of the pandemic, or just before the peak, kind of in that tech bubble, if you will. Splunk's down 44% from that peak, Okta's down, sorry, not down 44%. 44% of the peak. Okta's 22% of their peak. CrowdStrike, 41%, Zscaler, 36%, Fortinet, 71%. Not so bad. Palo Altos maintained 93% of its peak value, right? So it's a combination of two things. One is, they didn't run up as much during the pandemic, and they're executing through their cloud strategy. And that's provided a sort of softer landing. And I think it's going to be interesting to see where they go from here. And you heard Nikesh, we're going to double, and then double again. So that's 7 billion, 14 billion, heading to 30 billion. >> Lisa: Yeah, yeah. He also talked about one of the things that he's done in his tenure here, as really a workforce transformation. And we talk all the time, it's not just technology and processes, it's people. They've also seemed to have done a pretty good job from a cultural transformation perspective, which is benefiting their customers. And they're also growing- The ecosystem, we talked a little bit about the ecosystem with Nikesh. We've got Google Cloud on, we've got AWS on the program today alone, talking about the partnerships. The ecosystem is expanding, as well. >> Have you ever met Nir Zuk? >> I have not, not yet. >> He's the founder and CTO. I haven't, we've never been on "theCUBE." He was supposed to come on one day down in New York City. Stu and I were going to interview him, and he cut out of the conference early, so we didn't interview him. But he's a very opinionated dude. And you're going to see, he's basically going to come on, and I mean, I hope he is as opinionated on "TheCUBE," but he'll talk about how the industry has screwed it up. And Nikesh sort of talked about that, it's a shiny new toy strategy. Oh, there's another one, here's another one. It's the best in that category. Okay, let's get, and that's how we've gotten to this point. I always use that Optive graphic, which shows the taxonomy, and shows hundreds and hundreds of suppliers in the industry. And again, it's true. Customers have 20, 30, sometimes 40 different tool sets. And so now it's going to be interesting to see. So I guess my point is, it starts at the top. The founder, he's an outspoken, smart, tough Israeli, who's like, "We're going to take this on." We're not afraid to be ambitious. And so, so to your point about people and the culture, it starts there. >> Absolutely. You know, one of the things that you've written about in your breaking analysis over the weekend, Nikesh talked about it, they want to be the consolidator. You see this as they're building out the security supercloud. Talk to me about that. What do you think? What is a security supercloud in your opinion? >> Yeah, so let me start with the consolidator. So Palo Alto obviously is executing on that strategy. CrowdStrike as well, wants to be a consolidator. I would say Zscaler wants to be a consolidator. I would say that Microsoft wants to be a consolidator, so does Cisco. So they're all coming at it from different angles. Cisco coming at it from network security, which is Palo Alto's wheelhouse, with their next gen firewalls, network security. What Palo Alto did was interesting, was they started out with kind of a hardware based firewall, but they didn't try to shove everything into it. They put the other function in there, their cloud. Zscaler. Zscaler is the one running around saying you don't need firewalls anymore. Just run everything through our cloud, our security cloud. I would think that as Zscaler expands its TAM, it's going to start to acquire, and do similar types of things. We'll see how that integrates. CrowdStrike is clearly executing on a similar portfolio strategy, but they're coming at it from endpoint, okay? They have to partner for network security. Cisco is this big and legacy, but they've done a really good job of acquiring and using services to hide some of that complexity. Microsoft is, you know, they probably hate me saying this, but it's the just good enough strategy. And that may have hurt CrowdStrike last quarter, because the SMB was a soft, we'll see. But to specifically answer your question, the opportunity, we think, is to build the security supercloud. What does that mean? That means to have a common security platform across all clouds. So irrespective of whether you're running an Amazon, whether you're running an on-prem, Google, or Azure, the security policies, and the edicts, and the way you secure your enterprise, look the same. There's a PaaS layer, super PaaS layer for developers, so that that the developers can secure their code in a common framework across cloud. So that essentially, Nikesh sort of balked at it, said, "No, no, no, we're not, we're not really building a super cloud." But essentially they kind of are headed in that direction, I think. Although, what I don't know, like CrowdStrike and Microsoft are big competitors. He mentioned AWS and Google. We run on AWS, Google, and in their own data centers. That sounds like they don't currently run a Microsoft. 'Cause Microsoft is much more competitive with the security ecosystem. They got Identity, so they compete with Okta. They got Endpoint, so they compete with CrowdStrike, and Palo Alto. So Microsoft's at war with everybody. So can you build a super cloud on top of the clouds, the hyperscalers, and not do Microsoft? I would say no. >> Right. >> But there's nothing stopping Palo Alto from running in the Microsoft cloud. I don't know if that's a strategy, we should ask them. >> Yeah. They've done a great job in our last few minutes, of really expanding their TAM in the last few years, particularly under Nikesh's leadership. What are some of the things that you heard this morning that you think, really they've done a great job of expanding that TAM. He talked a little bit about, I didn't write the number down, but he talked a little bit about the market opportunity there. What do you see them doing as being best of breed for organizations that have 30 to 50 tools and need to consolidate that? >> Well the market opportunity's enormous. >> Lisa: It is. >> I mean, we're talking about, well north of a hundred billion dollars, I mean 150, 180, depending on whose numerator you use. Gartner, IDC. Dave's, whatever, it's big. Okay, and they've got... Okay, they're headed towards 7 billion out of 180 billion, whatever, again, number you use. So they started with network security, they put most of the network function in the cloud. They moved to Endpoint, Sassy for the edge. They've done acquisitions, the Cortex acquisition, to really bring automated threat intelligence. They just bought Cider Security, which is sort of the shift left, code security, developer, assistance, if you will. That whole shift left, protect right. And so I think a lot of opportunities to continue to acquire best of breed. I liked what Nikesh said. Keep the founders on board, sell them on the mission. Let them help with that integration and putting forth the cultural aspects. And then, sort of, integrate in. So big opportunities, do they get into Endpoint and compete with Okta? I think Okta's probably the one sort of outlier. They want to be the consolidator of identity, right? And they'll probably partner with Okta, just like Okta partners with CrowdStrike. So I think that's part of the challenge of being the consolidator. You're probably not going to be the consolidator for everything, but maybe someday you'll see some kind of mega merger of these companies. CrowdStrike and Okta, or Palo Alto and Okta, or to take on Microsoft, which would be kind of cool to watch. >> That would be. We have a great lineup, Dave. Today and tomorrow, full days, two full days of cube coverage. You mentioned Nir Zuk, we already had the CEO on, founder and CTO. We've got the chief product officer coming on next. We've got chief transformation officer of customers, partners. We're going to have great conversations, and really understand how this organization is helping customers ultimately achieve their SecOps transformation, their digital transformation. And really moved the needle forward to becoming secure data companies. So I'm looking forward to the next two days. >> Yeah, and Wendy Whitmore is coming on. She heads Unit 42, which is, from what I could tell, it's pretty much the competitor to Mandiant, which Google just bought. We had Kevin Mandia on at September at the CrowdStrike event. So that's interesting. That's who I was poking Nikesh a little bit on industry collaboration. You're tight with Google, and then he had an interesting answer. He said "Hey, you start sharing data, you don't know where it's going to go." I think Snowflake could help with that problem, actually. >> Interesting. >> Yeah, little Snowflake and some of the announcements ar Reinvent with the data clean rooms. Data sharing, you know, trusted data. That's one of the other things we didn't talk about, is the real tension in between security and regulation. So the regulators in public policy saying you can't move the data out of the country. And you have to prove to me that you have a chain of custody. That when you say you deleted something, you have to show me that you not only deleted the file, then the data, but also the metadata. That's a really hard problem. So to my point, something that Palo Alto might be able to solve. >> It might be. It'll be an interesting conversation with Unit 42. And like we said, we have a great lineup of guests today and tomorrow with you, so stick around. Lisa Martin and Dave Vellante are covering Palo Alto Networks Ignite 22 for you. We look forward to seeing you in our next segment. Stick around. (light music)

>>The Cube is live with three different stages here at aws Reinvent in fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada, and wow, is it just buzzing in here? It is absolutely overwhelming, but also thrilling to be here in Las Vegas.

>>Welcome to Las Vegas. It's the cube live at AWS Reinvent 22. >>The show floor doors just opened people pouring in, and you can certainly feel the excitement here. >>I've heard it's the largest >>Reinvent ever. I call that NextGen Cloud NextGen. It is. It's happening. It's happening right now. >>It is hot. It's a hot >>Show. >>Knowing you in covering your company, that this is not just yesterday, you came up with this idea that now everyone's talking about >>The >>Cube, where we are the leader in high tech coverage. >>It is. It's happening. It's happening right now. >>Wow. That was good. Woo. All right. There we go. Nice job guys.

>>Hello everyone. Welcome to the Cubes Live here in Dallas, Texas. I'm John Ferer, host of the Cube, Three days of wall to wall coverage. Of course, we've got the three fabulous guests here, myself, Savannah, Peterson. S look wonderful. >>Thank you. Jong on. I, I feel lucky to play the part here with my 10 gallon hat. >>Dave Nicholson, who's the analyst uncovering all the Dell Supercomputing, hpe all the technology is changing the game. Dave, you look great. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks, John. I appreciate >>It. All right, so, so, so you look good. So we're in Dallas, Texas is a trade show conference. I don't know what you'd call this these days, but thousands of booths are here. What's the take here? Why supercomputing 22? What's the big deal? >>Well, the big deal is dramatic incremental progress in terms of supercomputing capability. So what this conference represents is the leading edge in what it can deliver to the world. We're talking about scale that is impossible to comprehend with the human brain, but you can toss out facts and figures like performance measured in ex flops, millions of CPU cores working together, thousands of kilowatts of power required to power these systems. And I think what makes this, what makes this show unique is that it's not just a bunch of vendors, but it's academia. It's PhD candidates coming and looking for companies that they might work with. So it's a very, very different vibe here. >>Savannah, we were talking last night before we were setting up our agenda for it to drill down on this week. And you know, you were, by the way, that looks great. I mean, I wish I had one. >>We'll get you one by the end of the show, >>John. Don't worry. You know, Texas is always big in Texas and that's the, the thing here, but Supercomputing seems like that had a lull for a while. Yeah, it seems like it's gonna explode and you get a chance to review the papers, take a look at it. You, you're a, I won't say closet hardware nerd, but that's your roots. >>Yeah, yeah. Very openly hardware nerd. And, and I'm excited because I, we saw a lot of hype around quantum and around AI five, 10 years ago, but we weren't seeing the application at scale and we also weren't seeing, quite frankly, the hardware wasn't ready to power these types of endeavors at scale. Whereas now, you know, we've got, we've got air cooling, we've got liquid cooling, we've got multiple GPU's. Dell was just showing me all eight of theirs that they put in their beautiful million dollar piece of equipment, which is extremely impressive for folks to run complex calculations. And, but what I'm excited about with all the, I love when we fuse business and academia together, I think that that doesn't happen very often. I've been impressed. I mean, when I walked in today, right away, I'm sure y'all can't see this at home just yet, but we'll try and give you a feel over the course of the next few days. This conference is huge. This >>Is, yeah, it is >>Way bigger than I was expecting, You know, a lot larger than where we just were in Detroit. And, and I love it because we've got the people that are literally inventing the calculations that will determine a lot of our future from sequencing our genome to powering our weather forecasting, as well as all of the companies that create the hardware and the software that's gonna actually support that. Those algorithms and >>Those, and, and the science and the engineering involved has just been going on since 1988. This conference, this trade show going on since 1988, which is, it, it passes the test of time and now the future with all the new use cases emerging from the compute and supercomputing architectures out there, it's from cradle to grave. If you're, if you're in this business, you, you're in school all the way through the industry, it doesn't seem to stop that, that university student side of it. I mean that whole student section here. So you don't see that very often in some of these tech shows, like from students to boardroom. >>Yeah. I actually brought the super computer from 1988 with me in my pocket. And I'm not sure that I'm even joking. I this may have as much processing power, certainly as much storage with one terabyte on board. I sprung for the one terabyte folks. But it is mind boggling the amount of compute power we're, we're talking about. When you dig below the surface, which we'll be doing in the coming days, you see things like leaping from P C I E, you know, gen four to gen five, and the increase that that gives us in, in terms of capabilities for plugging into the motherboard and accessing the CPU complex and on and on and on. But, but you know, something Savannah alluded to, we're talking about the leading edge of what is possible from a humanity perspective. 1%. And, and so I'd like to get into, you know, as we're we're talking to some of the experts that we'll get a chance to talk to, I'd like to get their view on what the future holds and whether we can simply grow through quantitative increases in compute power, or if the real promise is out there in the land of quantum computing, are we all sort of hanging our hats, our large 10 gallon hats? >>If that's yes. Our hats, if we're hanging our hats on that, that that's when truly we'll be able to tease insight out of chaos. I'd like to hear from some of the real experts on that subject. >>I'm glad you brought that up, cuz I'm personally pretty pumped about quantum computing, but I've seen it sit in this hype stage for quite a while and I'm ready for the application. So I'm curious to hear >>What our experts, That's an awesome, that would be, I think that would be an awesome bumper sticker. Frankly. Savannah, I'm pumped, I'm pumped about quantum computing. Who is this person? Who is this person? >>I wanna see it first. Did someone show me it? >>Yeah, yeah. 400 qubits I think was the latest IBM announcement, which, which means something. I'll pretend like I completely understand what it means. >>Tell us what that means, David. >>Well, well, so, so Savannah, let me man explain it to you. Yeah, >>Let's >>Hear it. So, so it's basically, it's, you know, in conventional computing you can either, you can either be on or off zero or one in quantum computing, you can be both, neither or all of the above. That's, that's, that's, that's the depth to which I can go. I >>Like that. That was actually a succinct, as humanly possible >>Really sounds like a Ponzi scheme to me. I, I'm not sure if I, >>Well, let's get into some of the thoughts that you guys have on some of the papers. We saw Savannah and Dave, your perspective on this whole next level kind of expansion with supercomputing and super cloud and super apps will do for this next gen. What use cases are kind of shining out of this, because, you know, it used to be you were limited by how much gear you had stacked up, how big the server could be, the supercomputer. Now you've got large scale cloud computing, you got the ability to have different subsystems like advances in networking. So you're seeing a new architectural, almost bigger. Super computing isn't just a machine, it's a collection of machines, It's a collection of Yeah. Of other stuff. What's your thoughts on these, this architecture and then the use cases that are gonna emerge that were not getable before? >>So in the past, you, you talk about, you know, 1988 and, and you know, let's say a decade ago, the race was to assemble enough compute power to be able to do things quickly enough to be practical. So we knew that if we applied software to hardware, we could get an answer to a problem because we were asking very, very specific questions. And how quickly we got the answer would determine whether it was practical to pursue it or not. So if something took a day instead of a month, okay, fantastic. But now we've reached this critical mass. You could argue when that happened, but definitely I think we're there where things like artificial intelligence and machine learning are the core of what we're doing. We're not just simply asking systems to deliver defined answers. We're asking them to learn from their experiences, starts getting a little spooky, and we're asking them to tease insights out in a way that we haven't figured out. >>So we're saying give us the insight. We're not telling the system specifically how to give us that insight. So I think that's, that's the fundamental difference that's the frontier, is, you know, you're gonna hear a lot about AI and ml and then if you retreat back a bit from Supercomputing, you're in the realm of high performance computing, which is sort of junior version of supercomputing. It's instead of the billion dollar system, it's the system that, you know, schlubs like, like, like, like Facebook or AWS might be able to afford, you know, maybe a hundred million dollars for a system casual, just, just sort of casual kind of thing next to the coffee table in the living room. But I think that's really gonna be the talk. So that's a huge tent when you talk about AI and ml. Yeah, >>I I, I totally agree. We're having some of the conversations that we've had for a long time about AI and bias. I saw a lot of the papers were looking at that. I think that's what's gonna be really interesting to me, what's most exciting about this is how are we pulling together all of this on a global scale. So I'm excited to see how supercomputing impacts climate change, our ability to monitor environmental conditions around the globe and different governments and bodies can all combine. And all of this information can be going into a central brain and learning from it and figuring out how we can make the world a better place. We're learning about the body. There's a lot of people doing molecular biology and sequencing of the genome here. We've got, there's, there's, It's just, it's very, I I don't think a lot of people realize that supercomputing pretty much touches every aspect of our >>Lives. I mean, we've had it, we've had it for a while. I think cloud computing took a lot of the attention, given that that brought in massive capabilities, a lot of agility. And I think what's interesting here at this show, if you look at, you know, what's going on from the guess, like I said, from the dorm room to the boardroom, everyone's here, but you look at what's actually going on above the hardware, CNCF is here. They have a booth, the whole cloud native software business. It's gonna be interesting to see how the software business takes advantage of totally. How these architectures, because let's face it, I've never heard a developer pointer say, I wanna run on slower hardware. So no one wants that. So now if you abstract away the hardware, as we know with, with cloud computing and DevOps cloud on premises and Edge, David, this is like, this is again, nirvana for the industry because you want, it's an exciting thing, the fastest possible compute system for the software. >>Yeah, yeah. >>I I, at the end of the day, that's what we're talking >>About. So I asked, I asked the, the gift question to my Wharton students this morning on a call, and I, you know, I asked specifically if, if I could give you something that was the result of super computing's amazing nature, what would it be? Would it be personalized therapeutics in healthcare? Would it be something related to climate? Being able to figure out exactly what we can do. There's a whole range of possibilities. And what's interesting is >>What were some of the answers? >>So, so, so a lot of the answers, a lot of the answers came down to, to two categories and it was really, it was healthcare and climate. Yeah. A lot of, a lot of understanding and of course, and of course a lot of jokes about how eventually supercomputers will determine that. The problem is people, >>It's people. Yeah, no. So I knew you were headed there, >>But >>Don't people just want custom jeans? Yeah. >>Or, well, so one of the, one of the good ones though was, >>Was also that >>While we're >>Here, a person from a company who shall not be named said, oh, advertising, it was the, it was the what if you could predict with a high degree of certainty that when you sent someone an email saying, Hey, do you wanna buy this? They would say, Well, yeah, I do. Dramatically lowering the cost of acquisition for an individual customer as an example. Those are the kinds of breakthroughs that will transform how we live. Because all of a sudden, industries are completely disrupted, disrupted, not necessarily directly related to supercomputing, but you think about automating the entire fleet of, of, of trucks in, in North America. What does that do to people who currently drive those trucks? Yeah, so there are, there are societal questions at hand that I don't necessarily know the academics are, are, are considering when they're thinking what's possible. >>Well, I think, I think the point about the ad thing brings up the whole cultural shift that's going on from the old generation of, Hey, let's use our best minds in the industry to figure out how to place an ad at the right place in the right pixel, at the right time. Versus solving real problems like climate change our, you know, culture and society and get us getting along as a country and world water sustainability fires in California. Yeah, I mean, come on. >>There's a lot. So I, I gotta say, I was curious when you were playing with your pocket computer there and talking about the terabyte that you have inside. So back in 1988 when Supercomputing started, the first show was in Orlando. It was actually the same four days that we're here right now. I was born in 1988 if we're just talking about how great 1988 is. And so I guess I, >>I was born, So were we Savannah? So were we >>The era of, I think I was in third grade at that time. >>We won't tell, we won't say what you told me earlier about 1988 for you. But that said, so 1988 was when Steve Jobs released the next computer. He was out of Apple at that time. Yeah, that's right. >>Eight >>Megabytes of Ram. >>It's called the Cube. I think >>It's respectable. That's all it was called. It was, it was, it was, it was the cube, which is pretty, pretty exciting. But when we were looking at, yeah, on the supercomputing side, your phone would've been about, is a capable, >>So where will we be in 20 years? It's amazing >>What we gonna, >>Will our holograms be here instead of us physically sitting, sitting at the table? I don't know. >>Well, it's gonna be very interesting to see how the global ecosystem evolves. It used to be very nationalistic culture with computing. I think, I think we're gonna see global, you know, flattening of culture relative to computing. I think space will be a, a massive hopeful, massive discussion. I think software and automation will be at levels we don't even see. So I think software, to me, I'm looking at, that's the enablement of this supercomputing show. In terms of the next five years, what are they gonna do to enable more faster intelligent horsepower? And, and what does that look like? Is it, it used to be simple processor, more processors, more threads, multicores, and then stuff around it. I think this is where I think it's gonna shift to more network computing, network processing, edge latency, physics is involved. I mean, every, everything you can squeeze out of the physics will be Yeah. Interesting to watch. Well, when >>We, when we, when we peel back the cover on the actual pieces of hardware that are driving this revolution, parallelizing, you know, of workloads is critical to this. It's what super computing consists of. There's no such thing as a supercomputer sitting by itself on a table. Even the million dollar system from Dell, which is crazy when you hear Dell and million dollar system. >>And it's still there too, >>Right? Just, just hanging out. Yeah. But, but it's all about the interconnect. When you want to take advantage of parallel processing, you have to have software that can leverage all of the resources and connectivity becomes increasingly important. I think that's gonna be a thread that we're gonna see throughout the next few days with the, with the, you know, the motherboards, for lack of a lack of a better term, allowing faster access to memory, faster access to cpu, gpu, dpu, networking, storage devices, plugging in those all work together. But increasingly it's that connectivity layer that's critically important. Questions of InfiniBand versus ethernet. Our DMA over converged ethernet as an example, a lot of these architectural decisions are gonna be based on power cooling, dead city. So lot of details behind the scenes to make the magic happen. I >>Think the power is gonna be, you know, thinking 20 years out, hopefully everything here is powered sustainably 20 years from now because power pull, I mean these, the more exciting things going on in your supercomputer. The power suck is massive. That when we were talking to Dell, they were saying that's one of the biggest problems, >>Concerns, that's gonna their customers and that's gonna play into sustainability. So a lot of great guests, we got folks from Dell and the industry, a lot of the manufacturers, a lot of the hardware software experts gonna come on and share what's going on. You know, we did a, we did a post why hardware matters a few months ago, Dave. Everyone's like, well it does now more than ever. So we're gonna get into it here at Supercomputing 22, where the hardware matters. Faster power, as we say for the applications. Mr. Cube, moving back with more live coverage. Stay with us back.

>>Hello and welcome back to the live coverage of the Cube here. Live in Detroit, Michigan for Cub Con, our seventh year covering all seven years. The cube has been here. M John Fur, host of the Cube, co-founder of the Cube. I'm here with Lisa Mart, my co-host, and our new host, Savannah Peterson. Great to see you guys. We're wrapping up day one of three days of coverage, and our guest analyst is Sario Wall, who's the cube analyst who's gonna give us his report. He's been out all day, ear to the ground in the sessions, peeking in, sneaking in, crashing him, getting all the data. Great to see you, Sarvi. Lisa Savannah, let's wrap this puppy up. >>I am so excited to be here. My first coupon with the cube and being here with you and Lisa has just been a treat. I can't wait to hear what you have to say in on the report side. And I mean, I have just been reflecting, it was last year's coupon that brought me to you, so I feel so lucky. So much can change in a year, folks. You never know where you're be. Wherever you're sitting today, you could be living your dreams in just a few >>Months. Lisa, so much has changed. I mean, just look at the past this year. Events we're back in person. Yeah. Yep. This is a big team here. They're still wearing masks, although we can take 'em off with a cube. But mask requirement. Tech has changed. Conversations are upleveling, skill gaps still there. So much has changed. >>So much has changed. There's so much evolution and so much innovation that we've also seen. You know, we started out the keynote this morning, standing room. Only thousands of people are here. Even though there's a mass requirement, the community that is CNCF Co Con is stronger than I, stronger than I saw it last year. This is only my second co con. But the collaboration, what they've done, their devotion to the maintainers, their devotion to really finding mentors for mentees was really a strong message this morning. And we heard a >>Lot of that today. And it's going beyond Kubernetes, even though it's called co con. I also call it cloud native con, which I think we'll probably end up being the name because at the end of day, the cloud native scaling, you're starting to see the pressure points. You're start to see where things are breaking, where automation's coming in, breaking in a good way. And we're gonna break it all down Again. So much going on again, I've overs gonna be in charge. Digital is transformation. If you take it to its conclusion, then you will see that the developers are running the business. It isn't a department, it's not serving the business, it is the business. If that's the case, everything has to change. And we're, we're happy to have Sarib here with us Cube analysts on the badge. I saw that with the press pass. Well, >>Thank you. Thanks for getting me that badge. So I'm here with you guys and >>Well, you got a rapport. Let's get into it. You, I >>Know. Let's hear what you gotta say. I'm excited. >>Yeah. Went around, actually attend some sessions and, and with the analysts were sitting in, in the media slash press, and I spoke to some people at their booth and the, there are a few, few patterns, you know, which are, some are the exaggeration of existing patterns or some are kind of new patterns emerging. So things are getting complex in open source. The lawn more projects, right. They have, the CNCF has graduated some projects even after graduation, they're, they're exploring, right? Kubernetes is one of those projects which has graduated. And on that front, just a side note, the new projects where, which are entering the cncf, they're the, we, we gotta see that process and the three stages and all that stuff. I tweeted all day long, if you wanna know what it is, you can look at my tweets. But when I will look, actually write right on that actually after, after the show ends, what, what I saw there, these new projects need to be curated properly. >>I think they need to be weed. There's a lot of noise in these projects. There's a lot of overlap. So the, the work is cut out for CNCF folks, by the way. They're sort of managerial committee or whatever you call that. The, the people who are leading it, they're try, I think they're doing their best and they're doing a good job of that. And another thing actually, I really liked in the morning's keynote was that lot of women on the stage and minorities represented. I loved it, to be honest with you. So believe me, I'm a minority even though I'm Indian, but from India, I'm a minority. So people who have Punjab either know that I'm a minority, so I, I understand their pain and how hard it is to, to break through the ceiling and all that. So I love that part as well. Yeah, the >>Activity is clear. Yeah. From day one. It's in the, it's in the dna. I mean, they'll reject anything that the opposite >>Representation too. I mean, it's not just that everyone's invited, it's they're celebrated and that's a very big difference. Yeah. It's, you see conferences offer discounts for women for tickets or minorities, but you don't necessarily see them put them running where their mouth is actually recruit the right women to be on stage. Right. Something you know a little bit about John >>Diversity brings better outcomes, better product perspectives. The product is better with all the perspectives involved. Percent, it might go a little slower, maybe a little debates, but it's all good. I mean, it's, to me, the better product comes when everyone's in. >>I hope you didn't just imply that women would make society. So >>I think John men, like slower means a slower, >>More diversity, more debate, >>The worst. Bringing the diversity into picture >>Wine. That's, that's how good groups, which is, which is >>Great. I mean, yeah, yeah, >>Yeah, yeah. I, I take that mulligan back and say, hey, you knows >>That's >>Just, it's gonna go so much faster and better and cheaper, but that not diversity. Absolutely. >>Yes. Well, you make better products faster because you have a variety >>Of perspectives. The bigger the group, there's more debate. More debate is key. But the key to success is aligning and committing. Absolutely. Once you have that, and that's what open sources has been about for. Oh God, yeah. Generations >>Has been a huge theme in the >>Show generations. All right, so, so, >>So you have to add another, like another important, so observation if you will, is that the security is, is paramount right. Requirement, especially for open source. There was a stat which was presented in the morning that 60% of the projects in under CNCF have more vulnerabilities today than they had last year. So that was, That's shocking actually. It's a big jump. It's a big jump. Like big jump means jump, jump means like it can be from from 40 to 60 or or 50 or 60. But still that percentage is high. What, what that means is that lot more people are contributing. It's very sort of di carmic or ironic that we say like, Oh this project has 10,000 contributors. Is that a good thing? Right. We do. Do we know the quality of that, where they're coming from? Are there any back doors being, you know, open there? How stringent is the process of rolling those things, which are being checked in, into production? You know, who is doing that? I've >>Wondered about that. Yeah. The quantity, quality, efficacy game. Yes. And what a balance that must be for someone like CNCF putting in the structure to try and >>That's >>Hard. Curate and regulate and, and you know, provide some bumpers on the bowling lane, so to speak, of, of all of these projects. Yeah. >>Yeah. We thought if anybody thought that the innovation coming from, or the number of services coming from AWS or Google Cloud or likes of them is overwhelming, look at open source, it's even more >>Overwhelming. What's your take on the supply chain discussion? More code more happening. What are you hearing there? >>The supply chain from the software? Yeah. >>Supply chain software, supply chain security pays. Are people talking about that? What are you >>Seeing? Yeah, actually people are talking about that. The creation, the curation, not creation. Curation of suppliers of software I think is best done in the cloud. Marketplaces Ive call biased or what, you know, but curation of open source is hard. It's hard to know which project to pick. It's hard to know which project will pan out. Many of the good projects don't see the day light of the day, but some decent ones like it becomes >>A marketing problem. Exactly. The more you have out there. Exactly. The more you gotta get above the noise. Exactly. And the noise echo that. And you got, you got GitHub stars, you got contributors, you have vanity metrics now coming in to this that are influencing what's real. But sometimes the best project could have smaller groups. >>Yeah, exactly. And another controversial thing a little bit I will say that is that there's a economics of the practitioner, right? I usually talk about that and economics of the, the enterprise, right? So practitioners in our world, in software world especially right in systems world, practitioners are changing jobs every two to three years. And number of developers doubles every three years. That's the stat I've seen from Uncle Bob. He's authority on that software side of things. Wow. So that means there's a lot more new entrance that means a lot of churn. So who is watching out for the enterprise enterprises economics, You know, like are we creating stable enterprises? How stable are our operations? On a side note to that, most of us see the software as like one band, which is not true. When we talk about all these roles and personas, somebody's writing software for, for core layer, which is the infrastructure part. Somebody's writing business applications, somebody's writing, you know, systems of bracket, some somebody's writing systems of differentiation. We talk about those things. We need to distinguish between those and have principle based technology consumption, which I usually write about in our Oh, >>So bottom line in Europe about it, in your opinion. Yeah. What's the top story here at coupon? >>Top story is >>Headline. Yeah, >>The, the headline. Okay. The open source cannot be ignored. That's a headline. >>And what should people be paying attention to if there's a trend coming out? See any kind of trends coming out or any kind of signal, What, what do you see that people should pay attention to here? The put top >>Two, three things. The signal is that, that if you are a big shop, like you'd need to assess your like capacity to absorb open source. You need to be certain size to absorb the open source. If you are below that threshold, I mean we can talk about that at some other time. Like what is that threshold? I will suggest you to go with the managed services from somebody, whoever is providing those managed services around open source. So manage es, right? So from, take it from aws, Google Cloud or Azure or IBM or anybody, right? So use open source as managed offering rather than doing it yourself. Because doing it yourself is a lot more heavy lifting. >>I I, >>There's so many thoughts coming, right? >>Mind it's, >>So I gotta ask you, what's your rapport? You have some swag, What's the swag look >>Like to you? I do. Just as serious of a report as you do on the to floor, but I do, so you know, I come from a marketing background and as I, I know that Lisa does as well. And one of the things that I think about that we touched on in this is, is you know, canceling the noise or standing out from the noise and, and on a show floor, that's actually a huge challenge for these startups, especially when you're up against a rancher or companies or a Cisco with a very large budget. And let's say you've only got a couple grand for an activation here. Like most of my clients, that's how I ended up in the CU County ecosystem, was here with the A client before. So there actually was a booth over there and I, they didn't quite catch me enough, but they had noise canceling headphones. >>So if you just wanted to take a minute on the show floor and just not hear anything, which I thought was a little bit clever, but gonna take you through some of my favorite swag from today and to all the vendors, you know, this is why you should really put some thought into your swag. You never know when you're gonna end up on the cube. So since most swag is injection molded plastic that's gonna end up in the landfill, I really appreciate that garden has given all of us a potable plant. And even the packaging is plantable, which is very exciting. So most sustainable swag goes to garden. Well done >>Rep replicated, I believe is their name. They do a really good job every year. They had some very funny pins that say a word that, I'm not gonna say live on television, but they have created, they brought two things for us, yet it's replicated little etch sketch for your inner child, which is very nice. And given that we are in Detroit, we are in Motor City, we are in the home of Ford. We had Ford on the show. I love that they have done the custom K eight s key chains in the blue oval logo. Like >>Fords right behind us by the way, and are on you >>Interviewed, we had 'em on earlier GitLab taking it one level more personal and actually giving out digital portraits today. Nice. Cool. Which is quite fun. Get lap house multiple booths here. They actually IPOed while they were on the show floor at CubeCon 2021, which is fun to see that whole gang again. And then last but not least, really embracing the ship wheel logo of a Kubernetes is the robusta accrue that is giving out bucket hats. And if you check out my Twitter at sabba Savvy, you can see me holding the ship wheel that they're letting everyone pose with. So we are all in on Kubernetes. That cove gone 2022, that's for sure. Yeah. >>And this is something, day one guys, we've got three. >>I wanna get one of those >>Hats. We we need to, we need a group photo >>By the end of Friday we will have a beverage and hats on to sign off. That's, that's my word. If I can convince John, >>Don, what's your takeaway? You guys did a great kind of kickoff about last week or so about what you were excited about, what your thoughts were going to be. We're only on day one, There's been thousands of people here, we've had great conversations with contributors, the community. What's your take on day one? What's your, what's your tagline? >>Well, Savannah and I had at we up, we, we were talking about what we might see and I think we, we were right. I think we had it right. There's gonna be a lot more people than there were last year. Okay, check. That's definitely true. We're in >>Person, which >>Is refreshing. I was very surprised about the mask mandate that kind of caught me up guard. I was major. Yeah. Cause I've been comfortable without the mask. I'm not a mask person, but I had to wear it and I was like, ah, mask. But I understand I support that. But whatever. It's >>Corporate travel policy. So you know, that's what it is. >>And then, you know, they, I thought that they did an okay job with the gates, but they wasn't slow like last time. But on the content side, definitely Kubernetes security, top line headline, Kubernetes at scale security, that's, that's to me the bumper sticker top things to pay attention to the supply chain and the role of docker and the web assembly was a surprise. You're starting to see containers ecosystem coming back to, I won't say tension growth in the functionality of containers cuz they have to solve the security problem in the container images. Okay, you got scanning technology so it's a little bit in the weeds, but there's a huge movement going on to fix that problem to scale it so it's not a problem area contain. And then Dr sent a great job with productivity interviews. Scott Johnston over a hundred million in revenue so far. That's my number. They have not publicly said that. That's what I'm reporting from sources extremely well financially. And they, and they love their business model. They make productivity for developers. That's a scoop. That's new >>Information. That's a nice scoop we just dropped there on the co casually. >>You're watching that. Pay attention to that. But that, that's proof. But guess what, Red Hat's got developers too. Yes. Other people have to, So developers gonna go where it's the best. Yeah. Developers are voting with their code, they're voting with their feet. You will see the winners with the developers and that's what we've talked about. >>Well and the companies are catering to the developers. Savannah and I had a great conversation with Ford. Yeah. You saw, you showed their fantastic swag was an E for Ev right behind us. They were talking about the, all the cultural changes that they've really focused on to cater towards the developers. The developers becoming the influencers as you say. But to see a company that is as, as historied as Ford Motor Company and what they're doing to attract and retain developer talent was impressive. And honestly that surprised me. Yeah. >>And their head of deb relations has been working for, for, for 29 years. Which I mean first of all, most companies on the show floor haven't been around for 29 years. Right. But what I love is when you put community first, you get employees to stick around. And I think community is one of the biggest themes here at Cuco. >>Great. My, my favorite story that surprised me and was cool was the Red Hat Lockheed Martin interview where they had edge deployments with micro edge, >>Micro shift, >>Micro >>Shift, new projects under, there's, there are three new projects under, >>Under that was so, so cool because it was an edge story in deployment for the military where lives are on the line, they actually had it working. That is a real world example of Kubernetes and tech orchestrating to deploy the industrial edge. And I think that's proof in my mind that Kubernetes and this ecosystem is gonna move faster through this next wave of growth. Because once things start clicking, you get hybrid on premise to super cloud and edge. That was, that was my favorite cause it was real. That was real >>Story that it can make is literally life and death on the battlefield. Yeah, that was amazing. With what they're doing and what >>They're talking check out the Lockheed Martin Red Hat edge story on Silicon Angle and then a press release all pillar. >>Yeah. Another actually it's impressive, which we knew this which is happening, but I didn't know that it was happening at this scale is the finops. The finops is, I saw your is a discipline which most companies are adopting bigger companies, which are spending like hundreds of millions dollars in cloud average. Si a team size of finops for finops is seven people. And average number of tools is I think 3.5 or around 3.7 or something like that. Average number of tools they use to control the cost. So finops is a very generic term for years. It's not financial operations, it's the financial operations for the cloud cost, you know, containing the cloud costs. So that's a finops that is a very emerging sort of discipline >>To keep an eye on. And well, not only is that important, I talked to, well one of the principles over there, it's growing and they have real big players in that foundation. Their, their events are highly attended. It's super important. It's just, it's the cost side of cloud. And, and of course, you know, everyone wants to know what's going on. No one wants to leave there. Their Amazon on Yeah, you wanna leave the lights on the cloud, as we always say, you never know what the bill's gonna look like. >>The cloud is gonna reach $3 billion in next few years. So we might as well control the cost there. Yeah, >>It was, it was funny to get the reaction I found, I don't know if I was, how I react, I dunno how I felt. But we, we did introduce Super Cloud to a couple of guests and a, there were a couple reactions, a couple drawn. There was a couple, right. There was a couple, couple reactions. And what I love about the super cloud is that some people are like, oh, cringing. And some people are like, yeah, go. So it's a, it's a solid debate. It is solid. I saw more in the segments that I did with you together. People leaning in. Yeah. Super fun. We had a couple sum up, we had a couple, we had a couple cringes, I'll say their names, but I'll go back and make sure I, >>I think people >>Get 'em later. I think people, >>I think people cringe on the, on the term not on the idea. Yeah. You know, so the whole idea is that we are building top of the cloud >>And then so I mean you're gonna like this, I did successfully introduce here on the cube, a new term called architectural list. He did? That's right. Okay. And I wanna thank Charles Fitzgerald for that cuz he called super cloud architectural list. And that's exactly the point of super cloud. If you have a great coding environment, you shouldn't have to do an architecture to do. You should code and let the architecture of the Super cloud make it happen. And of course Brian Gracely, who will be on tomorrow at his cloud cast said Super Cloud enables super services. Super Cloud enables what Super services, super service. The microservices underneath the covers have to be different. High performing, automated. So again, the debate and Susan, the goal is to keep it open. And that's our, that's our goal. But we had a lot of fun with that. It was fun to poke the bear a little bit. So >>What is interesting to see just how people respond to it too, with you throwing it out there so consistently, >>You wanna poke the bear, get a conversation going, you know, let let it go. We'll see, it's been positive so far. >>There, there I had a discussion outside somebody who is from Ford but not attending this conference and they have been there for a while. I, I just some moment hit like me, like I said, people, okay, technologists are horizontal, the codes are horizontal. They will go from four to GM to Chrysler to Bank of America to, you know, GE whatever, you know, like cross vertical within vertical different vendors. So, but the culture of a company is local, right? Right. Ford has been building cars for forever. They sort of democratize it. They commercialize it, right? But they have some intense culture. It's hard to change those cultures. And how do we bring in the new thinking? What is, what approach that should be? Is it a sandbox approach for like putting new sensors on the car? They have to compete with te likes our Tesla, right? Yeah. But they cannot, if they are afraid of deluding their existing market or they're afraid of failure there, right? So it's very >>Tricky. Great stuff. Sorry. Great to have you on as our cube analyst breaking down the stories. We'll document that, that we'll roll out a post on it. Lisa Savannah, let's wrap up the show for day one. We got day two and three. We'll start with you. What's your summary? Quick bumper sticker. What's today's show all about? >>I'm a community first gal and this entire experience is about community and it's really nice to see the community come together, celebrate that, share ideas, and to have our community together on stage. >>Yeah. To me, to me it was all real. It's happening. Kubernetes cloud native at scale, it's happening, it's real. And we see proof points and we're gonna have faster time to value. It's gonna accelerate faster from here. >>The proof points, the impact is real. And we saw that in some amazing stories. And this is just a one of the cubes >>Coverage. Ib final word on this segment was well >>Said Lisa. Yeah, I, I think I, I would repeat what I said. I got eight, nine years back at a rack space conference. Open source is amazing for one biggest reason. It gives the ability to the developing nations to be at somewhat at par where the dev develop nations and, and those people to lift up their masses through the automation. Cuz when automation happens, the corruption goes down and the economy blossoms. And I think it's great and, and we need to do more in it, but we have to be careful about the supply chains around the software so that, so our systems are secure and they are robust. Yeah, >>That's it. Okay. To me for SAR B and my two great co-host, Lisa Martin, Savannah Peterson. I'm John Furry. You're watching the Cube Day one in, in the Books. We'll see you tomorrow, day two Cuban Cloud Native live in Detroit. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Hello everyone, and welcome to Fal.Con 2022, CrowdStrike's big user conference. You're watching the Cube. My name is Dave Vallante. I'm here with my co-host David Nicholson. CrowdStrike is a company that was founded over 10 years ago. This is about 11 years, almost to the day. They're 2 billion company in revenue terms. They're growing at about 60% a year. They've got a path they've committed to wall street. They've got a path to $5 billion by mid decade. They got a $40 billion market cap. They're free, free cash flow positive and trying to build essentially a generational company with a very growing Tam and a modern platform. CrowdStrike has the fundamental belief that the unstoppable breach is a myth. David Nicholson, even though CSOs don't believe that, CrowdStrike is on a mission. Right? >> I didn't hear the phrase. Zero trust mentioned in the keynote >> Right. >> What was mentioned was this idea that CrowdStrike isn't simply a tool, it's a platform. And obviously it takes a platform to get to 5 billion. >> Yeah. So let's talk about the keynote. George Kurtz, the CEO came on. I thought the keynote was, was measured, but very substantive. It was not a lot of hype in there. Most security conferences, the two exceptions are this one and Reinforce, Amazon's big security conference. Steven Schmidt. The first time I was at a Reinforce said "All this narrative about security is such a bad industry" and "We're not doing a great job." And "It's so scary." That doesn't help the industry. George Kurtz sort of took a similar message. And you know what, Dave? When I think of security outside the context of IT I think of like security guards >> Right. >> Like protecting the billionaires. Right? That's a powerful, you know, positive thing. It's not really a defensive movement even though it is defensive but so that was kind of his posture there. But he talked about essentially what I call, not his words permanent changes in the, in the in the cyber defense industry, subsequent to the pandemic. Again, he didn't specifically mention the pandemic but he alluded to, you know, this new world that we live in. Fal.Con is a hundred sessions, eight tracks. And really his contention is we're in the early innings. These guys got 20,000 customers. And I think they got the potential to have hundreds of thousands. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, if I'm working with a security company I want them to be measured. I'm not looking for hype. I don't want those. I don't want those guards to be in disco shirts. I want them in black suits. So, you know, so the, the, the point about measured is is I think a positive one. I was struck by the competence of the people who were on stage today. I have seen very very large companies become kind of bureaucratic. And sometimes you don't get the best of the best up on stage. And we saw a lot of impressive folks. >> Yeah. Michael Santonis get up, but before we get to him. So, a couple points that Kurtz made he said, "digital transformation is needed to bring modern architectures to IT. And that brings modern security." And he laid out that whole sort of old way, new way very Andy Jassy-like old guard, new guard. He didn't hit on it that hard but he basically said "security is all about mitigating risk." And he mentioned that the the CSO I say CSO, he says CSO or CSO has a seat at the board. Now, many CSOs are board level participants. And then he went into the sort of four pillars of, of workload, and the areas that they focus on. So workload to them is end point, identity, and then data. They don't touch network security. That's where they partner with the likes of Cisco, >> Right. >> And Palo Alto networks. But then they went deep into identity threat protection, data, which is their observability platform from an acquisition called Humio. And then they went big time into XDR. We're going to talk about all this stuff. He said, "data is the new digital currency." Talked a lot about how they're now renaming, Humio, Log Scale. That's their Splunk killer. We're going to talk about that all week. And he talked a little bit about the single agent architecture. That is kind of the linchpin of CrowdStrike's architecture. And then Michael Santonis, the CTO came on and did a deep dive into each of those, and really went deep into XDR extended, right? Detection and response. XDR building on EDR. >> Yeah. I think the subject of XDR is something we'll be, we'll be touching on a lot. I think in the next two days. I thought the extension into observability was very, very interesting. When you look at performance metrics, where things are gathering those things in and being able to use a single agent to do so. That speaks to this idea that they are a platform and not just a tool. It's easy to say that you aspire to be a platform. I think that's a proof point. On the subject, by the way of their fundamental architecture. Over the years, there have been times when saying that your infrastructure requires an agent that would've been a deal killer. People say "No agents!" They've stuck to their guns because they know that the best way to deliver what they deliver is to have an agent in the environment. And it has proven to be the right strategy. >> Well, this is one of the things I want to explore with the technical architects that come on here today is, how do you build a lightweight agent that can do everything that you say it's going to do? Because they started out at endpoint, and then they've extended it to all these other modules, you know, identity. They're now into observability. They've got this data platform. They just announced that acquisition of another company they bought Preempt, which is their identity. They announced Responsify, responsify? Reposify, which is sort of extends the observability and gives them visualization or visibility. And I'm like, how do you take? How do you keep an agent lightweight? That's one of the things I want to better understand. And then the other is, as you get into XDR I thought Michael Santonis was pretty interesting. He had black hat last month. He did a little video, you know. >> That was great >> Man in the street, what's XDR what's XDR what's XDR. I thought the best response was, somebody said "a holistic approach to end point security." And so it's really an evolution of, of EDR. So we're going to talk about that. But, how do you keep an agent lightweight and still support all these other capabilities? That's something I really want to dig into, you know, without getting bloated. >> Yeah, Yeah. I think it's all about the TLAs, Dave. It's about the S, it's about SDKs and APIs and having an ecosystem of partners that will look at the lightweight agent and then develop around it. Again, going back to the idea of platform, it's critical. If you're trying to do it all on your own, you get bloat. If you try to be all things to all people with your agent, if you try to reverse engineer every capability that's out there, it doesn't work. >> Well that's one of the things that, again I want to explore because CrowdStrike is trying to be a generational company. In the Breaking Analysis that we published this week. One of the things I said, "In order to be a generational company you have to have a strong ecosystem." Now the ecosystem here is respectable, you know, but it's obviously not AWS class. You know, I think Snowflake is a really good example, ServiceNow. This feels to me like ServiceNow circa 2013. >> Yeah. >> And we've seen how ServiceNow has evolved. You know, Okta, bought Off Zero to give them the developer angle. We heard a little bit about a developer platform today. I want to dig into that some more. And we heard a lot about everybody hates their DLP. I want to get rid of my DLP, data loss prevention. And so, and the same thing with the SIM. One of the ETR round table, Eric Bradley, our colleague at a round table said "If it weren't for the compliance requirements, I would replace my SIM with XDR." And so that's again, another interesting topic. CrowdStrike, cloud native, lightweight agent, you know, some really interesting tuck in acquisitions. Great go-to-market, you know, not super hype just product that works and gets stuff done, you know, seems to have a really good, bright future. >> Yeah, no, I would agree. Definitely. No hype necessary. Just constant execution moving forward. It's clearly something that will be increasingly in demand. Another subject that came up that I thought was interesting, in the keynote, was this idea of security for elections, extending into the realm of misinformation and disinformation which are both very very loaded terms. It'll be very interesting to see how security works its way into that realm in the future. >> Yeah, yeah, >> Yeah. >> Yeah, his guy, Kevin Mandia, who is the CEO of Mandiant, which just got acquired. Google just closed the deal for $5.4 billion. I thought that was kind of light, by the way, I thought Mandiant was worth more than that. Still a good number, but, and Kevin, you know was the founder and, >> Great guy. >> they were self-funded. >> Yeah, yeah impressive. >> So. But I thought he was really impressive. He talked about election security in terms of hardening you know, the election infrastructure, but then, boom he went right to what I see as the biggest issue, disinformation. And so I'm sitting there asking myself, okay how do you deal with that? And what he talked about was mapping network effects and monitoring network effects, >> Right. >> to see who's pumping the disinformation and building career streams to really monitor those network effects, positive, you know, factual or non-factual network or information. Because a lot of times, you know, networks will pump factual information to build credibility. Right? >> Right. >> And get street cred, earn that trust. You know, you talk about zero trust. And then pump disinformation into the network. So they've now got a track. We'll get, we have Kevin Mandia on later with Sean Henry who's the CSO yeah, the the CSO or C S O, chief security officer of CrowdStrike >> more TLA. Well, so, you can think of it as almost the modern equivalent of the political ad where the candidate at the end says I support this ad or I stand behind whatever's in this ad. Forget about trying to define what is dis or misinformation. What is opinion versus fact. Let's have a standard for finding, for exposing where the information is coming from. So if you could see, if you're reading something and there is something that is easily de-code able that says this information is coming from a troll farm of a thousand bots and you can sort of examine the underlying ethos behind where this information is coming from. And you can take that into consideration. Personally, I'm not a believer in trying to filter stuff out. Put the garbage out there, just make sure people know where the garbage is coming from so they can make decisions about it. >> So I got a thought on that because, Kevin Mandia touched on it. Again, I want to ask about this. He said, so this whole idea of these, you know detecting the bots and monitoring the networks. Then he said, you can I think he said something that's to the effect of. "You can go on the offensive." And I'm thinking, okay, what does that mean? So for instance, you see it all the time. Anytime I see some kind of fact put out there, I got to start reading the comments and like cause I like to see both sides, you know. I'm right down the middle. And you'll go down and like 40 comments down, you're like, oh this is, this is fake. This video was edited, >> Right. >> Da, da, da, da, and then a bunch of other people. But then the bots take over and that gets buried. So, maybe going on the offensive is to your point. Go ahead and put it out there. But then the bots, the positive bots say, okay, by the way, this is fake news. This is an edited video FYI. And this is who put it out and here's the bot graph or something like that. And then you attack the bots with more bots and then now everybody can sort of of see it, you know? And it's not like you don't have to, you know email your friend and saying, "Hey dude, this is fake news." >> Right, right. >> You know, Do some research. >> Yeah. >> Put the research out there in volume is what you're saying. >> Yeah. So, it's an, it's just I thought it was an interesting segue into another area of security under the heading of election security. That is fraught with a lot of danger if done wrong, if done incorrectly, you know, you you get into the realm of opinion making. And we should be free to see information, but we also should have access to information about where the information is coming from. >> The other narrative that you hear. So, everything's down today again and I haven't checked lately, but security generally, we wrote about this in our Breaking Analysis. Security, somewhat, has held up in the stock market better than the broad tech market. Why? And the premise is, George Kurt said this on the last conference call, earnings call, that "security is non-discretionary." At the same time he did say that sales cycles are getting a little longer, but we see this as a positive for CrowdStrike. Because CrowdStrike, their mission, or one of their missions is to consolidate all these point tools. We've talked many, many times in the Cube, and in Breaking Analysis and on Silicon Angle, and on Wikibon, how the the security business use too many point tools. You know this as a former CTO. And, now you've got all these stove pipes, the number one challenge the CSOs face is lack of talent. CrowdStrike's premise is they can consolidate that with the Fal.Con platform, and have a single point of control. "Single pane of glass" to use that bromide. So, the question is, is security really non-discretionary? My answer to that is yes and no. It is to a sense, because security is the number one priority. You can't be lax on security. But at the same time the CSO doesn't have an open checkbook, >> Right. >> He or she can't just say, okay, I need this. I need that. I need this. There's other competing initiatives that have to be taken in balance. And so, we've seen in the ETR spending data, you know. By the way, everything's up relative to where it was, pre you know, right at the pandemic, right when, pandemic year everything was flat to down. Everything's up, really up last year, I don't know 8 to 10%. It was expected to be up 8% this year, let's call it 6 to 7% in 21. We were calling for 7 to 8% this year. It's back down to like, you know, 4 or 5% now. It's still healthy, but it's softer. People are being more circumspect. People aren't sure about what the fed's going to do next. Interest rates, you know, loom large. A lot of uncertainty out here. So, in that sense, I would say security is not non-discretionary. Sorry for the double negative. What's your take? >> I think it's less discretionary. >> Okay. >> Food, water, air. Non-discretionary. (David laughing) And then you move away in sort of gradations from that point. I would say that yeah, it is, it falls into the category of less-discretionary. >> Alright. >> Which is a good place to be. >> Dave Nicholson and David Vallante here. Two days of wall to wall coverage of Fal.Con 2022, CrowdStrike's big user conference. We got some great guests. Keep it right there, we'll be right back, right after this short break. (upbeat music)

>>Hi there. Welcome back to the cubes day. One coverage of VMware Explorer, 2022 from San Francisco, Lisa Martin and Dave Nicholson. Dave, we've been here all day, having some great conversations with the VMware partner ecosystem >>With real live people >>Within in 3d. Yeah. People actually sitting down next to us still >>Appreciated, even though, you know, we've, we've done a few of these events, but yeah, it feels like things are getting back to normal. >>It does. You and I were both in the keynote starting this morning, standing room only. We're hearing somewhere between 7,000 and 10,000 attendees. Yeah. We're in Moscoe west. So we're kind of away from a little bit of the, the main action. But talk to me about some of the things that you heard this morning in the keynote, some of the announcements from VMware, did it meet your expectations? >>Yes. And because I didn't expect, you know, this is very, very different than going to say an AWS event where they're going to launch 300 new shiny objects. This was very much in my mind so far about VMware focusing on its core value proposition and an aspect of its core value proposition that is the cloud stack and how they are shoring up places in that strategy that needed shoring up like addressing issues with licensing. So you don't have to have separate licensing for on premises, VMware things. You're doing separate licenses in hyperscale cloud providers for doing those very same things that looks like something that's going to roll out over time. That's very, very interesting. Something that wasn't really wasn't mentioned directly, but, but, but actually one of our guests mentioned it. It's this idea that if you take the VMware cloud provider partner, community VCP P is the inside term for it. >>There are thousands of VMware partners that deliver VMware cloud software on top of infrastructure, all around the globe. If you take that VCP P community as an entity, you can argue that it is the third or fourth largest cloud on earth. If you look at that as a core value proposition and you look at Broadcom, acquiring VMware, assuming everything goes through it, isn't just vSphere. That is exciting to Broadcom, or it shouldn't be at least because you have the entire cloud stack when you look at it from that perspective. And I think they were trying to get some of that across today. >>So they address the Broadcom acquisition obviously is the elephant in the room. It was right. Impossible. >>Well, well, they have OC 10 stand up in wave. OC >>Tanon stood up. Did, did a wave, just >>Crowd because he can't say anything. And you know, I've got European approval still pending, right. You know, all sorts of stuff. But >>What we are, what we heard today from, I'll say the partner ecosystem, we talked with NetApp, we talked with pure storage. We talked with Phoenix, snap, others. I I'd have to look through my notes. Everyone's actually quite positive. Yeah. On the acquisition and what it can mean for the future of VMware. Did you hear the same? >>Yes, absolutely. And I think partially that's because the partners that we talk to are really close to the core of VMware's value proposition. That's never going to go away. So if you're talking about NetApp and AWS partnering with VMware to deliver NetApp storage services into that environment, that's core VMware proposition, it's nowhere near the bleeding edge of what, of, what, of what VMware has been doing. So they're going to be bullish. The other thing that's interesting from some of the partners that we've talked to, if you had asked us five or 10 years ago, would those partners be successful today? We might have predicted that they'd all be gone, right? NetApp what's gonna happen. Well, all storage is going to cloud. Guess what NetApp's doing? Pretty darn well with its partner, with its cloud partnerships and card and, and cloud strategy, VMware old school virtualization on premises. Ah, what are they gonna do? I'll tell you. I was skeptical when pat Gelsinger first pursued the VMC strategy with AWS. Hey, it's worked out pretty well and now they have the same capabilities everywhere. So I think that it's, it's interesting to see how solidly positioned some traditional good old fashioned blue gene technologies are how well positioned they are in this era of cloud and how VMware is such a, such a core part of that. So of course they're happy. Yeah. >>Yeah. We talked, we had AWS, NetApp and VMware on, on set for a segment and talked about, and you and I were talking about that segment before it went live. Just the power of look what AWS is doing, how you know, how, how many years ago, 10 years ago would they have been, I'm not gonna partner with NetApp and VMware and now look, it's a core to their business unit. >>Yeah, no, they wouldn't have acknowledged it. They, in fact, there was a time when AWS thought that they could maintain their stratospheric rise at the level they needed to while just letting all legacy existing stuff, just sort of fade away, you know, they'll just do it on the backs of everything new. They ran headlong into something. We call stickiness specifically around the area. VMware, they found that application environments for a variety of really good reasons belong in this context. And it's hard to rip them out by the roots. It's, you know, AWS might have told you five or 10 years ago. Well, if people don't move to cloud immediately, it's because of one reason they're stupid. The reality is there are a lot of really good reasons to maintain that VMware context. They embrace that with VMC. And now I think the it's really interesting. The NetApp announcement is another indication that the world of hyperscale cloud sees VMware as something that is part of the future. That is a very, very long tail. That very, very long tail is clearly what Broadcom is interested in. They don't see this as a flash in the pan. Let's make revenue really quickly. This is about a long ti a long time of future long future >>Long future. Well, VMware's coming off solid quarter earnings that just announced speeding estimates growing the top line by up to 6%. So there's, there's momentum that they're bringing with them into this acquisition. >>Yeah, definitely momentum big argument over what the strategy might be moving forward in terms of growth versus efficiency. I think that virtualization that includes the traditional VM with a resident full blown OS is definitely something that is behind us, but that we're carrying forward for good reason. The transition in, from a VMware perspective into the world of Zu critically important, it's critically important that they get that right as they move forward. So that net new cloud native applications could be, can be created in the VMware context that way. So it's, it's really gonna be interesting to watch over the next couple of years, the direction that this goes, but, but it's easy to get immersed in the Kool-Aid when you're at an event like this, I try to be as skeptical as possible. And I'm actually feeling pretty, I'm feeling better about VMware's future than I did before I arrived today. So that's >>Interesting. Yeah. >>Yeah, no question about it. I think, I mean, there, there, there is such a large core that I think it's gonna take it into the future a long way. >>Well, they definitely have a lot of tailwind behind them. The, the one thing that I, that we didn't get to do today was talk to any customers. We will get to do that tomorrow. When I always love hearing from the voice of the customer, we heard voice of the customer stories from the vendors, from VMware, from NetApp, from >>Little skewed, eat a little skewed. Exactly. They're all happy. All the customers are happy >>They're and very >>Successful and very successful. >>But tomorrow we get to actually rack open and talk with some VMware customers, obviously, right. Customers in the ecosystem as well. And I want to hear from them what their thoughts are on the acquisition. Yeah. >>We know they're, they're not bringing their disgruntled customers. Right. You know, this is my, this is my ex-wife's my, my ex-mother-in-law. And she's here to tell you that she didn't have a good experience. Yeah, no, that's not >>Gonna happen. We're gonna hear good stories tomorrow, but it's always nice to, to hear the stories from the customers themselves. Yeah. I always like doing that. >>No, it's always, it is informative. It's all, it's interesting from the perspective that you, you hone in on what they care about, because even if they have sort of an idea of, of, of the message that they want to get across in terms of what they're doing, still build default to that core of what they really care about. And that's interesting because what the customers really care about is part of that core. And as VMware becomes part of Broadcom, potentially, it's gonna be all about those things that are important, that you know, that customers find important. >>And that's exactly what it should be about. You know, of course we, every conversation that we had today, probably every conversation was inclusive of customer outcomes. What outcomes are you helping businesses achieve regardless of industry, especially as we're hopefully coming out of the pandemic, still in a, in a dynamic, remote hybrid work environment, but it's all about enabling businesses to, to achieve their goals. So I always wanna understand from, from VMware's perspective or AWS or NetApp procure, what are the goals that your customers are coming to you with and who are you having those conversations with? We also heard today a number of probably almost everyone that during the pandemic, the conversations are going up the stack. And maybe they've been talking with the director of it. Now it's the VP of engineering. Maybe it's the CFO. Yep. We're seeing much more strategic initiatives and focus here as customers in every industry have to pivot and have gotta get to the cloud. >>Yeah. I think that's why we work together. Well, Lisa, because you have the virtual leash and you can yank me back from diving into the technical stuff because, because I just, I, I get a pit in my stomach when someone says, oh, technology doesn't matter. It's all about outcomes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Try doing this on technology that doesn't work. Your outcomes are gonna suck both Arely but no, no, no, they are. I know. And, and, and, and it's important that we focus on those things cuz that's what customers really care about. They do, they really care about the business outcomes >>They do. And, and on the cube, we care about those as well. And we wanna get that message across. >>I wish they would care more about speeds and feeds though. It's super interesting. It's like horsepower and torque and it's all >>He does. He gets really excited about that. But the good thing is tomorrow we have more opportunities. Yes. Got a great guest line up tomorrow. Dave and I are gonna be talking to them from right here on this set. So we encourage you to come check in for day two of our coverage of VMware Explorer live from San Francisco. We hope you have a great rest of your day and we'll see you tomorrow.

(bright upbeat music) >> In 2011, early Facebook employee and Cloudera co-founder Jeff Hammerbacher famously said, "The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to get people to click on ads, and that sucks!" Let's face it. More than a decade later, organizations continue to be frustrated with how difficult it is to get value from data and build a truly agile and data-driven enterprise. What does that even mean, you ask? Well, it means that everyone in the organization has the data they need when they need it in a context that's relevant to advance the mission of an organization. Now, that could mean cutting costs, could mean increasing profits, driving productivity, saving lives, accelerating drug discovery, making better diagnoses, solving supply chain problems, predicting weather disasters, simplifying processes, and thousands of other examples where data can completely transform people's lives beyond manipulating internet users to behave a certain way. We've heard the prognostications about the possibilities of data before and in fairness we've made progress, but the hard truth is the original promises of master data management, enterprise data warehouses, data marts, data hubs, and yes even data lakes were broken and left us wanting for more. Welcome to The Data Doesn't Lie... Or Does It? A series of conversations produced by theCUBE and made possible by Starburst Data. I'm your host, Dave Vellante, and joining me today are three industry experts. Justin Borgman is the co-founder and CEO of Starburst, Richard Jarvis is the CTO at EMIS Health, and Teresa Tung is cloud first technologist at Accenture. Today, we're going to have a candid discussion that will expose the unfulfilled, and yes, broken promises of a data past. We'll expose data lies: big lies, little lies, white lies, and hidden truths. And we'll challenge, age old data conventions and bust some data myths. We're debating questions like is the demise of a single source of truth inevitable? Will the data warehouse ever have feature parity with the data lake or vice versa? Is the so-called modern data stack simply centralization in the cloud, AKA the old guards model in new cloud close? How can organizations rethink their data architectures and regimes to realize the true promises of data? Can and will an open ecosystem deliver on these promises in our lifetimes? We're spanning much of the Western world today. Richard is in the UK, Teresa is on the West Coast, and Justin is in Massachusetts with me. I'm in theCUBE studios, about 30 miles outside of Boston. Folks, welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having us. >> Okay, let's get right into it. You're very welcome. Now, here's the first lie. The most effective data architecture is one that is centralized with a team of data specialists serving various lines of business. What do you think Justin? >> Yeah, definitely a lie. My first startup was a company called Hadapt, which was an early SQL engine for IDU that was acquired by Teradata. And when I got to Teradata, of course, Teradata is the pioneer of that central enterprise data warehouse model. One of the things that I found fascinating was that not one of their customers had actually lived up to that vision of centralizing all of their data into one place. They all had data silos. They all had data in different systems. They had data on prem, data in the cloud. Those companies were acquiring other companies and inheriting their data architecture. So despite being the industry leader for 40 years, not one of their customers truly had everything in one place. So I think definitely history has proven that to be a lie. >> So Richard, from a practitioner's point of view, what are your thoughts? I mean, there's a lot of pressure to cut cost, keep things centralized, serve the business as best as possible from that standpoint. What does your experience show? >> Yeah, I mean, I think I would echo Justin's experience really that we as a business have grown up through acquisition, through storing data in different places sometimes to do information governance in different ways to store data in a platform that's close to data experts people who really understand healthcare data from pharmacies or from doctors. And so, although if you were starting from a greenfield site and you were building something brand new, you might be able to centralize all the data and all of the tooling and teams in one place. The reality is that businesses just don't grow up like that. And it's just really impossible to get that academic perfection of storing everything in one place. >> Teresa, I feel like Sarbanes-Oxley have kind of saved the data warehouse, right? (laughs) You actually did have to have a single version of the truth for certain financial data, but really for some of those other use cases I mentioned, I do feel like the industry has kind of let us down. What's your take on this? Where does it make sense to have that sort of centralized approach versus where does it make sense to maybe decentralize? >> I think you got to have centralized governance, right? So from the central team, for things like Sarbanes-Oxley, for things like security, for certain very core data sets having a centralized set of roles, responsibilities to really QA, right? To serve as a design authority for your entire data estate, just like you might with security, but how it's implemented has to be distributed. Otherwise, you're not going to be able to scale, right? So being able to have different parts of the business really make the right data investments for their needs. And then ultimately, you're going to collaborate with your partners. So partners that are not within the company, right? External partners. We're going to see a lot more data sharing and model creation. And so you're definitely going to be decentralized. >> So Justin, you guys last, jeez, I think it was about a year ago, had a session on data mesh. It was a great program. You invited Zhamak Dehghani. Of course, she's the creator of the data mesh. One of our fundamental premises is that you've got this hyper specialized team that you've got to go through if you want anything. But at the same time, these individuals actually become a bottleneck, even though they're some of the most talented people in the organization. So I guess, a question for you Richard. How do you deal with that? Do you organize so that there are a few sort of rock stars that build cubes and the like or have you had any success in sort of decentralizing with your constituencies that data model? >> Yeah. So we absolutely have got rockstar data scientists and data guardians, if you like. People who understand what it means to use this data, particularly the data that we use at EMIS is very private, it's healthcare information. And some of the rules and regulations around using the data are very complex and strict. So we have to have people who understand the usage of the data, then people who understand how to build models, how to process the data effectively. And you can think of them like consultants to the wider business because a pharmacist might not understand how to structure a SQL query, but they do understand how they want to process medication information to improve patient lives. And so that becomes a consulting type experience from a set of rock stars to help a more decentralized business who needs to understand the data and to generate some valuable output. >> Justin, what do you say to a customer or prospect that says, "Look, Justin. I got a centralized team and that's the most cost effective way to serve the business. Otherwise, I got duplication." What do you say to that? >> Well, I would argue it's probably not the most cost effective, and the reason being really twofold. I think, first of all, when you are deploying a enterprise data warehouse model, the data warehouse itself is very expensive, generally speaking. And so you're putting all of your most valuable data in the hands of one vendor who now has tremendous leverage over you for many, many years to come. I think that's the story at Oracle or Teradata or other proprietary database systems. But the other aspect I think is that the reality is those central data warehouse teams, as much as they are experts in the technology, they don't necessarily understand the data itself. And this is one of the core tenets of data mesh that Zhamak writes about is this idea of the domain owners actually know the data the best. And so by not only acknowledging that data is generally decentralized, and to your earlier point about Sarbanes-Oxley, maybe saving the data warehouse, I would argue maybe GDPR and data sovereignty will destroy it because data has to be decentralized for those laws to be compliant. But I think the reality is the data mesh model basically says data's decentralized and we're going to turn that into an asset rather than a liability. And we're going to turn that into an asset by empowering the people that know the data the best to participate in the process of curating and creating data products for consumption. So I think when you think about it that way, you're going to get higher quality data and faster time to insight, which is ultimately going to drive more revenue for your business and reduce costs. So I think that that's the way I see the two models comparing and contrasting. >> So do you think the demise of the data warehouse is inevitable? Teresa, you work with a lot of clients. They're not just going to rip and replace their existing infrastructure. Maybe they're going to build on top of it, but what does that mean? Does that mean the EDW just becomes less and less valuable over time or it's maybe just isolated to specific use cases? What's your take on that? >> Listen, I still would love all my data within a data warehouse. I would love it mastered, would love it owned by a central team, right? I think that's still what I would love to have. That's just not the reality, right? The investment to actually migrate and keep that up to date, I would say it's a losing battle. Like we've been trying to do it for a long time. Nobody has the budgets and then data changes, right? There's going to be a new technology that's going to emerge that we're going to want to tap into. There's going to be not enough investment to bring all the legacy, but still very useful systems into that centralized view. So you keep the data warehouse. I think it's a very, very valuable, very high performance tool for what it's there for, but you could have this new mesh layer that still takes advantage of the things I mentioned: the data products in the systems that are meaningful today, and the data products that actually might span a number of systems. Maybe either those that either source systems with the domains that know it best, or the consumer-based systems or products that need to be packaged in a way that'd be really meaningful for that end user, right? Each of those are useful for a different part of the business and making sure that the mesh actually allows you to use all of them. >> So, Richard, let me ask you. Take Zhamak's principles back to those. You got the domain ownership and data as product. Okay, great. Sounds good. But it creates what I would argue are two challenges: self-serve infrastructure, let's park that for a second, and then in your industry, one of the most regulated, most sensitive, computational governance. How do you automate and ensure federated governance in that mesh model that Teresa was just talking about? >> Well, it absolutely depends on some of the tooling and processes that you put in place around those tools to centralize the security and the governance of the data. And I think although a data warehouse makes that very simple 'cause it's a single tool, it's not impossible with some of the data mesh technologies that are available. And so what we've done at EMIS is we have a single security layer that sits on top of our data mesh, which means that no matter which user is accessing which data source, we go through a well audited, well understood security layer. That means that we know exactly who's got access to which data field, which data tables. And then everything that they do is audited in a very kind of standard way regardless of the underlying data storage technology. So for me, although storing the data in one place might not be possible, understanding where your source of truth is and securing that in a common way is still a valuable approach, and you can do it without having to bring all that data into a single bucket so that it's all in one place. And so having done that and investing quite heavily in making that possible has paid dividends in terms of giving wider access to the platform, and ensuring that only data that's available under GDPR and other regulations is being used by the data users. >> Yeah. So Justin, we always talk about data democratization, and up until recently, they really haven't been line of sight as to how to get there, but do you have anything to add to this because you're essentially doing analytic queries with data that's all dispersed all over. How are you seeing your customers handle this challenge? >> Yeah, I mean, I think data products is a really interesting aspect of the answer to that. It allows you to, again, leverage the data domain owners, the people who know the data the best, to create data as a product ultimately to be consumed. And we try to represent that in our product as effectively, almost eCommerce like experience where you go and discover and look for the data products that have been created in your organization, and then you can start to consume them as you'd like. And so really trying to build on that notion of data democratization and self-service, and making it very easy to discover and start to use with whatever BI tool you may like or even just running SQL queries yourself. >> Okay guys, grab a sip of water. After the short break, we'll be back to debate whether proprietary or open platforms are the best path to the future of data excellence. Keep it right there. (bright upbeat music)

>>Good morning live from Las Vegas, Lisa Martin and Dave Lanta here covering snowflake summit 22. Dave, it's great to be here in person. The keynote we just came from was standing room only. In fact, there was overflow. People are excited to be back and to hear from the company in person the first time, since the IPO, >>Lots of stuff, lots of deep technical dives, uh, you know, they took the high end of the pyramid and then dove down deep in the keynotes. It >>Was good. They did. And we've got Doug Hench with us to break this down in the next eight to 10 minutes, VP and principle analyst at constellation research. Doug, welcome to the cube. >>Great to be here. >>All right, so guys, I was telling Dave, as we were walking back from the keynote, this was probably the most technical keynote I've seen in a very long time. Obviously in person let's break down some of the key announcements. What were some of the things Dave that stood out to you and what they announced just in the last hour and a half alone? >>Well, I, you know, we had a leave before they did it, but the unit store piece was really interesting to me cuz you know, the big criticism is, oh, say snowflake, that doesn't do transaction data. It's just a data warehouse. And now they're sort of reaching out. We're seeing the evolution of the ecosystem. Uh, sluman said it was by design. It was one of the questions I had for them. Is this just kind of happen or is it by design? So that's one of many things that, that we can unpack. I mean the security workload, uh, the, the Apache tables, we were just talking about thatt, which not a lot of hands went up when they said, who uses Apache tables, but, but a lot of the things they're doing seem to me anyway, to be trying to counteract the narrative, that snow, I mean that data bricks is put out there about you guys. Aren't open, you're a walled garden and now they're saying, Hey, we're we're as open as anybody, but what are your thoughts, Doug? >>Well, that's the, the iceberg announcement, uh, also, uh, the announcement of, of uni store being able to reach out to, to any source. Uh, you know, I think the big theme here was this, this contrast you constantly see with snowflake between their effort to democratize and simplify and disrupt the market by bringing in a great big tent. And you saw that great big tent here today, 7,000 people, 2,007,000 plus I'm told 2000 just three years ago. So this company is growing hugely quickly, >>Unprecedented everybody. >>Yeah. Uh, fastest company to a billion in revenue is Frank Salman said in his keynote today. Um, you know, and I think that there's, there's that great big tent. And then there's the innovations they're delivering. And a lot of their announcements are way ahead of the J general availability. A lot of the things they talked about today, Python support and some, some other aspects they're just getting into public preview. And many of the things that they're announcing today are in private preview. So it could be six, 12 months be before they're generally available. So they're here educating a lot of these customers. What is iceberg? You know, they're letting them know about, Hey, we're not just the data warehouse. We're not just letting you migrate your old workloads into the cloud. We're helping you innovate with things like the data marketplace. I see the data marketplace is really crucial to a lot of the announcements they're making today. Particularly the native apps, >>You know, what was interesting sluman in his keynote said we don't use the term data mesh, cuz that means has meaning to the people, lady from Geico stood up and said, we're building a data mesh. And when you think about, you know, the, those Gemma Dani's definition of data mesh, Snowflake's actually ticking a lot of boxes. I mean, it's it's is it a decentralized architecture? You could argue that it's sort of their own wall garden, but things like data as product we heard about building data products, uh, uh, self-serve infrastructure, uh, computational governance, automated governance. So those are all principles of Gemma's data mesh. So I there's close as anybody that, that I've seen with the exception of it's all in the data cloud. >>Why do you think he was very particular in saying we're not gonna call it a data mesh? I, >>I think he's respecting the principles that have been put forth by the data mesh community generally and specifically Jamma Dani. Uh, and they don't want to, you know, they don't want to data mesh wash. I mean, I, I, I think that's a good call. >>Yeah, that's it's a little bit out there and, and it, they didn't talk about data mesh so much as Geico, uh, the keynote or mentioned their building one. So again, they have this mix of the great big tent of customers and then very forward looking very sophisticated customers. And that's who they're speaking to with some of these announcements, like the native apps and the uni store to bring transactional data, bring more data in and innovate, create new apps. And the key to the apps is that they're made available through the marketplace. Things like data sharing. That's pretty simple. A lot of, uh, of their competitors are talking about, Hey, we can data share, but they don't have the things that make it easy, like the way to distribute the data, the way to monetize the data. So now they're looking forward monetizing apps, they changed the name from the data marketplace to the, to the snowflake marketplace. So it'll be apps. It will be data. It'll be all sorts of innovative products. >>We talk about Geico, uh, JPMC is speaking at this conference, uh, and the lead technical person of their data mesh initiative. So it's like, they're some of their customers that they're putting forth. So it's kind of interesting. And then Doug, something else that you and I have talked about on the, some of the panels that we've done is you've got an application development stack, you got the database over there and then you have the data analytics stack and we've, I've said, well, those things come together. Then people have said, yeah, they have to. And this is what snowflake seems to be driving towards. >>Well with uni store, they're reaching out and trying to bring transactional data in, right? Hey, don't limit this to analytical information. And there's other ways to do that, like CDC and streaming, but they're very closely tying that again to that marketplace, with the idea of bring your data over here and you can monetize it. Don't just leave it in that transactional database. So a, another reach to a broader play across a big community that they're >>Building different than what we saw last week at Mongo, different than what you know, Oracle does with, with heat wave. A lot of ways to skin a cat. >>That was gonna be my next question to both of you is talk to me about all the announcements that we saw. And, and like we said, we didn't actually get to see the entire keynote had come back here. Where are they from a differentiation perspective in terms of the competitive market? You mentioned Doug, a lot of the announcements in either private preview or soon to be public preview early. Talk to me about your thoughts where they are from a competitive standpoint. >>Again, it's that dichotomy between their very forward looking announcements. They're just coming on with things like Python support. That's just becoming generally available. They're just introducing, uh, uh, machine learning algorithms, like time series built into the database. So in some ways they're catching up while painting this vision of future capabilities and talking about things that are in development or in private preview that won't be here for a year or two, but they're so they're out there, uh, talking about a BLE bleeding edge story yet the reality is the product sometimes are lagging behind. Yeah, >>It's interesting. I mean, they' a lot of companies choose not to announce anything until it's ready to ship. Yeah. Typically that's a technique used by the big whales to try to freeze the market, but I think it's different here. And the strategy is to educate customers on what's possible because snowflake really does have, you know, they're trying to differentiate from, Hey, we're not just a data warehouse. We have a highly differentiatable strategy from whether it's Oracle or certainly, you know, Mongo is more transactional, but, but you know, whether it's couch base or Redis or all the other databases out there, they're saying we're not a database, we're a data cloud. <laugh> right. Right. Okay. What is that? Well, look at all the things that you can do with the data cloud, but to me, the most interesting is you can actually build data products and you can monetize that. And their, the emphasis on ecosystem, you, they look at Salman's previous company would ServiceNow took a long time for them to build an ecosystem. It was a lot of SI in smaller SI and they finally kind of took off, but this is exceeding my expectations and ecosystem is critical because they can't do it all. You know, they're gonna O otherwise they're gonna spread themselves to >>That. That's what I think some competitors just don't get about snowflake. They don't get that. It's all about the community, about their network that they're building and the relationships between these customers. And that they're facilitating that with distribution, with monetization, things that are hard. So you can't just add sharing, or you can share data from one of their, uh, legacy competitors, uh, in, in somebody else's marketplace that doesn't facilitate the transaction that doesn't, you know, build on the community. Well, >>And you know, one of the criticisms too, of the criticism on snowflake goes, they don't, you know, they can't do complex joins. They don't do workload management. And I think their answer to that is, well, we're gonna look to the ecosystem to do that. Or you, you saw some kind of, um, cost governance today in the, in the keynote, we're gonna help you optimize your spend, um, a little different than workload management, but related >>Part of their governance was having a, a, a node, uh, for every workload. So workload isolation in that way, but that led to the cost problems, you know, like too many nodes with not enough optimization. So here too, you saw a lot of, uh, announcements around cost controls, budgets, new features, uh, user groups that you could bring, uh, caps and guardrails around those costs. >>In the last couple minutes, guys talk about their momentum. Franks Lutman showed a slide today that showed over 5,900 customers. I was looking at some stats, uh, in the last couple of days that showed that there is an over 1200% increase in the number of customers with a million plus ARR. Talk about their momentum, what you expect to see here. A lot of people here, people are ready to hear what they're doing in person. >>Well, I think this, the stats say it all, uh, fastest company to a, to a billion in revenue. Uh, you see the land and expand experience that many companies have and in the cost control, uh, announcements they were making, they showed the typical curve like, and he talked about it being a roller coaster, and we wanna help you level that out. Uh, so that's, uh, a matter of maturation. Uh, that's one of the downsides of this rapid growth. You know, you have customers adding new users, adding new clusters, multi clusters, and the costs get outta control. They want to help customers even that out, uh, with reporting with these budget and cost control measures. So, uh, one of the growing pains that comes with, uh, adding so many customers so quickly, and those customers adding so many users and new, uh, workloads quickly, >>I know we gotta break, but last point I'll make about the key. Uh, keynote is SL alluded to the fact that they're not taking the foot off the gas. They don't see any reason to, despite the narrative in the press, they have inherent profitability. If they want to be more profitable, they could be, but they're going for growth >>Going for growth. There is so much to unpack in the next three days. You won't wanna miss it. The Cube's wall to oil coverage, Lisa Martin for Dave Valenti, Doug hen joined us in our keynote analysis. Thanks so much for walking, watching stick around. Our first guest is up in just a few minutes.

>> Narrator: theCUBE presents KubeCon and Cloud NativeCon Europe, 2022 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain. A coverage of KubeCon, Cloud NativeCon, Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend. Your host of theCUBE, along with Paul Gillum, Senior Editor Enterprise Architecture for Silicon Angle, Enrico, Senior IT Analyst for GigaOm . This has been a full day, 7,500 attendees. I might have seen them run out of food, this is just unexpected. I mean, it escalated from what I understand, it went from capping it off at 4,000 gold, 5,000 gold in it off finally at 7,500 people. I'm super excited for... Today's been a great dead coverage. I'm super excited for tomorrow's coverage from theCUBE, but first off, we'll let the the new person on stage take the first question of the wrap up of the day of coverage, Enrico, what's different about this year versus other KubeCons or Cloud Native conversations. >> I think in general, it's the maturity. So we talk a lot about day two operations, observability, monitoring, going deeper and deeper in the security aspects of the application. So this means that for many enterprises, Kubernetes is becoming real critical. They want to get more control of it. And of course you have the discussion around FinOps, around cost control, because we are deploying Kubernetes everywhere. And if you don't have everything optimized, control, monitored, costs go to the roof and think about deploying the Public Cloud . If your application is not optimized, you're paying more. But also in that, on-premises if you are not optimized, you don't have any clear idea what is going to happen. So capacity planning become the nightmare, that we know from the past. So there is a lot of going on around these topics, really exciting actually, less infrastructure, more application. That is what Kubernetes is in here. >> Paul help me separate some of the signal from the noise. There is a lot going on a lot of overlap. What are some of the big themes of takeaways for day one that Enterprise Architects, Executives, need to take home and really chew on? >> Well, the Kubernetes was a turning point. Docker was introduced nine years ago, and for the first three or four years it was an interesting technology that was not very widely adopted. Kubernetes came along and gave developers a reason to use containers. What strikes me about this conference is that this is a developer event, ordinarily you go to conferences and it's geared toward IT Managers, towards CIOs, this is very much geared toward developers. When you have the hearts and minds of developers the rest of the industry is sort of pulled along with it. So this is ground zero for the hottest area of the entire computing industry right now, is in this area building Distributed services, Microservices based, Cloud Native applications. And it's the developers who are leading the way. I think that's a significant shift. I don't see the Managers here, the CIOs here. These are the people who are pulling this industry into the next generation. >> One of the interesting things that I've seen when we've always said, Kubernetes is for the developers, but we talk with an icon from MoneyGram, who's a end user, he's an enterprise architect, and he brought Kubernetes to his front end developers, and they rejected it. They said, what is this? I just want to develop code. So when we say Kubernetes is for developers or the developers are here, how do we reconcile that mismatch of experience? We have Enterprise Architect here. I hear constantly that the Kubernetes is for developers, but is it a certain kind of developer that Kubernetes is for? >> Well, yes and no. I mean, so the paradigm is changing. Okay. So, and maybe a few years back, it was tough to understand how make your application different. So microservices, everything was new for everybody, but actually, everything has changed to a point and now the developer understands, is neural. So, going through the application, APIs, automation, because the complexity of this application is huge, and you have, 724 kind of development sort of deployment. So you have to stay always on, et cetera, et cetera. And actually, to the point of developers bringing this new generation of decision makers in there. So they are actually decision, they are adopting technology. Maybe it's a sort of shadow IT at the very beginning. So they're adopting it, they're using it. And they're starting to use a lot of open source stuff. And then somebody upper in the stack, the Executive, says what are... They discover that the technology is already in place is a critical component, and then it's transformed in something enterprise, meaning paying enterprise services on top of it to be sure support contract and so on. So it's a real journey. And these guys are the real decision makers, or they are at the base of the decision making process, at least >> Cloud Native is something we're going to learn to take for granted. When you remember back, remember the Fail Whale in the early days of Twitter, when periodically the service would just crash from traffic, or Amazon went through the same thing. Facebook went through the same thing. We don't see that anymore because we are now learning to take Cloud Native for granted. We assume applications are going to be available. They're going to be performant. They're going to scale. They're going to handle anything we throw at them. That is Cloud Native at work. And I think we forget sometimes how refreshing it is to have an internet that really works for you. >> Yeah, I think we're much earlier in the journey. We had Microsoft on, the Xbox team talked about 22,000 pods running Linkerd some of the initial problems and pain points around those challenges. Much of my hallway track conversation has been centered around as we talk about the decision makers, the platform teams. And this is what I'm getting excited to talk about in tomorrow's coverage. Who's on the ground doing this stuff. Is it developers as we see or hear or told? Or is it what we're seeing from the Microsoft example, the MoneyGram example, where central IT is getting it. And not only are they getting it, they're enabling developers to simply write code, build it, and Kubernetes is invisible. It seems like that's become the Holy Grail to make Kubernetes invisible and Cloud Native invisible, and the experience is much closer to Cloud. >> So I think that, it's an interesting, I mean, I had a lot of conversation in the past year is that it's not that the original traditional IT operations are disappearing. So it's just that traditional IT operation are giving resources to these new developers. Okay, so it's a sort of walled garden, you don't see the wall, but it's a walled garden. So they are giving you resources and you use these resources like an internal Cloud. So a few years back, we were talking about private Cloud, the private Cloud as let's say the same identical paradigm of the Public Cloud is not possible, because there are no infinite resources or well, whatever we think are infinite resources. So what you're doing today is giving these developers enough resources to think that they are unlimited and they can do automatic operationing and do all these kind of things. So they don't think about infrastructure at all, but actually it's there. So IT operation are still there providing resources to let developers be more free and agile and everything. So we are still in a, I think an interesting time for all of it. >> Kubernetes and Cloud Native in general, I think are blurring the lines, traditional lines development and operations always were separate entities. Obviously with DevOps, those two are emerging. But now we're moving when you add in shift left testing, shift right testing, DevSecOps, you see the developers become much more involved in the infrastructure and they want to be involved in infrastructure because that's what makes their applications perform. So this is going to cause, I think IT organizations to have to do some rethinking about what those traditional lines are, maybe break down those walls and have these teams work much closer together. And that should be a good thing because the people who are developing applications should also have intimate knowledge of the infrastructure they're going to run on. >> So Paul, another recurring theme that we've heard here is the impact of funding on resources. What have your discussions been around founders and creators when it comes to sourcing talent and the impact of the markets on just their day to day? >> Well, the sourcing talent has been a huge issue for the last year, of course, really, ever since the pandemic started. Interestingly, one of our guests earlier today said that with the meltdown in the tech stock market, actually talent has become more available, because people who were tied to their companies because of their stock options are now seeing those options are underwater and suddenly they're not as loyal to the companies they joined. So that's certainly for the startups, there are many small startups here, they're seeing a bit of a windfall now from the tech stock bust. Nevertheless, skills are a long term problem. The US educational system is turning out about 10% of the skilled people that the industry needs every year. And no one I know, sees an end to that issue anytime soon. >> So Enrico, last question to you. Let's talk about what that means to the practitioner. There's a lot of opportunity out there. 200 plus sponsors I hear, I think is worth the projects is 200 plus, where are the big opportunities as a practitioner, as I'm thinking about the next thing that I'm going to learn to help me survive the next 10 or 15 years of my career? Where you think the focus should be? Should it be that low level Cloud builder? Or should it be at those levels of extraction that we're seeing and reading about? >> I think that it's a good question. The answer is not that easy. I mean, being a developer today, for sure, grants you a salary at the end of the month. I mean, there is high demand, but actually there are a lot of other technical figures in the data center, in the Cloud, that could really find easily a job today. So, developers is the first in my mind also because they are more, they can serve multiple roles. It means you can be a developer, but actually you can be also with the new roles that we have, especially now with the DevOps, you can be somebody that supports operation because you know automation, you know a few other things. So you can be a sysadmin of the next generation even if you are a developer, even if when you start as a developer. >> KubeCon 2022, is exciting. I don't care if you're a developer, practitioner, a investor, IT decision maker, CIO, CXO, there's so much to learn and absorb here and we're going to be covering it for the next two days. Me and Paul will be shoulder to shoulder, I'm not going to say you're going to get sick of this because it's just, it's all great information, we'll help sort all of this. From Valencia, Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host Enrico Signoretti, Paul Gillum, and you're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain and coverage of Q con cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend. You're a host of the cube along with Paul Gillum, senior editor, enterprise architecture for Silicon angle, ENCO, senior ready, senior it analyst for giga own. Uh, this has been a full day, 7,500 attendees. I might have seen them run out of food. This is just unexpected. I mean, they, the, it escalated from what understand it went from four, capping it off to 4,000 gold, 5,000 gold in and off. Finally at 7,500 people. I'm super excited for, you know, today's been a great day of coverage. I'm super excited for tomorrow's coverage, uh, from the cube. But first off, we'll let the, the new person on stage take the, the first question of, of the wrap up of the day of coverage, UN Rico on Rico. What's different about this year versus other Q coupons or cloud native conversations. >>I, I think in general, it's the maturity. So we talk it a lot about day two operations, uh, observability monitoring, uh, going deeper and deeper in the security aspects of the application. So this means that for many enterprises, Kubernetes is becoming real critical. They want to, to get more control of it. And of course you have the discussion around Phen op around, you know, uh, cost control because we are deploying Kubernetes everywhere. And, and if you don't have everything optimized control, monitor it, you know, uh, cost to the roof and think about, uh, deploying the public cloud. If your application is not optimized, you're paying more, but also in the on premises, if you are not optimiz, you don't have the clear idea of what is going to happen. So capacity planning become the nightmare that we know from the past. So there is a lot of going on around these topics, uh, really exciting, actually less infrastructure, more replication. That is what Kubernetes is India. >>Paul help me separate some of the signal from the noise. Uh, there is a lot going on a lot of overlap. What are some of the big themes of takeaways for day one that enterprise architects executives need to take home and really chew >>On? Well, the Kubernetes was a turning point. You know, Docker was introduced nine years ago and for the first three or four years, it was an interesting technology that was not very widely adopted. Kubernetes came along and gave developers a reason to use containers. What strikes me about this conference is that this is a developer event, you know, ordinarily you go to conferences and it's geared toward it managers towards CIOs. This is very much geared toward developers when you have the hearts and minds of developers, the rest of the industry is sort of pulled along with it. So this is ground zero for the hottest, uh, the, the hottest area of the entire computing industry. Right now, I is in this area building distributed services, BA microservices based cloud native applications. And it's the developers who are leading the way. I think that's, that's a significant shift. I don't see the managers here, the CIOs here, these are the people who are, uh, who are pulling this industry into the next generation. >>Um, one of the interesting things that I've seen when we, you know, we've always said, Kubernetes is for the developers, but we talk with, uh, an icon from, uh, MoneyGram. Who's a end user, he's an enterprise architect. And he brought Kubernetes to his front end developers and they, they, they kind of rejected it. They said, what is this? I just wanna develop cold. So when we say Kubernetes is for developers, or the developers are here, where, how do we reconcile that mismatch of experience? We have enterprise architecture. I hear constantly that, that the, uh, Kubernetes is for developers, but is it a certain kind of developer that Kubernetes is for? >>Well, yes and no. I mean, so the paradigm is changing. Okay. So, and maybe a few years back, it was tough to understand how, you know, uh, uh, make your application different. So microservices, everything was new for everybody, but actually, so everything is changed to a point. Now, the developer understands, you know, it is neural. So, you know, going through the application APIs automation, because the complexity of this application is, is huge. And you have, you know, 7 24 kind of development, uh, sort of deployment. So you have to stay always on cetera, et cetera. And actually to the point of, you know, developers, uh, you know, bringing this new generation of, uh, decision makers in India. So they are actually decision, they are adopting technology. Maybe it's a sort of shadow it at the very beginning. So they're adopting it, they're using it. And they're starting to use a lot of open source stuff. And then somebody upper in the stack, the executive says, what are, yeah, they, they discover that the technology is already in place is, uh, is a critical component. And then it's, uh, you know, uh, transformed in something enterprise, meaning, you know, paying enterprise services on top of it to be sure con uh, contract and so on. So it's a real journey. And these are, these guys are the real decision makers. Oh, they are at the base of the decision making process. At least >>Cloud native is something we're gonna learn to take for granted. You know, when you remember back, remember the fail whale in the early days of Twitter, when periodically the service would just would just, uh, um, crash from, uh, from, uh, traffic or Amazon went through the same thing. Facebook went through the same thing. We don't see that anymore because we are now learning to take cloud native for granted. We assume applications are gonna be available. They're gonna be performant. They're gonna scale. They're gonna handle anything. We throw at them that is cloud native at work. And I think we, we forget sometimes how refreshing it is to have, uh, an internet that really works for you. >>Yeah. I, I think we're much earlier in the journey. You know, we have Microsoft, uh, on the Xbox team talked about 22,000 pods running ni D some of the initial problems and pain points of, uh, around those challenges. Uh, much of my hallway track conversation has been centered around as we talk about kind of the decision makers, the platform teams. And this is what I'm getting excited to talk about in tomorrow's coverage. Who's on the ground doing this stuff. Is it developers as we are, as, as we see or hear or told, or is it what we're seeing from the Microsoft example, the MoneyGram example where central it is kind of getting it, and not only are they getting it, they're enabling developers to, to simply write code, build it. And Kubernetes is invisible. It seems like that's become the holy grill to make Kubernetes invisible cloud native invisible, and the experience is much closer to cloud. >>So I, I think that, uh, um, it's an interesting, I mean, I had a lot of conversation in the past year is that it's not that the original, you know, traditional it operations are disappearing. So it's just that, uh, traditional it operation are giving resources to these new developers. Okay. So it's a, it's a sort of walled garden. You don't see the wall, but it's a walled garden. So they are giving you resources and you use these resources like an internal cloud. So a few years back, we were talking about private cloud, the private cloud, as, you know, as a, let's say, uh, the same identical paradigm of, of the public cloud. This is not possible because there are no infinite resources or, well, whatever we, we think are infinite resources. So what you're doing today is giving these developers enough resources to think that they are unlimited and they can, uh, do automatic provisioning and do all these kind of things. So they don't think about infrastructure at all, but actually it's there. So it operation are still there providing resources to let developers be more free and agile and everything. So we are still in a, I think in an interesting time for all of it, >>Kubernetes and cloud native in general, I think are blurring the lines, traditional lines development and operations always were separate entities, obviously through with DevOps. Those two are emerging, but now we're moving. When you add in shift left testing shift, right? Testing, uh, dev SecOps, you see the developers become much more involved in the infrastructure and they want to be involved in infrastructure because that's what makes their applications perform. So this is gonna, cause I think it organizations to have, do some rethinking about what those traditional lines are, maybe break down those walls and have these teams work, work much closer together. And that should be a good thing because the people who are developing applications should also have intimate knowledge of the infrastructure they're gonna run on. >>So Paul, another recurring theme that we've heard here is the impact of funding on resources. What have you, what have your discussions been around founders and creators when it comes to sourcing talent and the impact of the markets on just their day to day? >>Well, the sourcing talent has been a huge issue for the last year. Of course, really ever since the pandemic started interesting. We, uh, one of our, our guests earlier today said that with the meltdown in the tech stock market, actually talent has become more available because people who were tied to their companies because of their, their stock options are now seeing those options are underwater. And suddenly they're not as loyal to the companies they joined. So that's certainly for the, for the startups. Uh, there are many small startups here. Um, they're seeing a bit of a windfall now from the, uh, from the tech stock, uh, bust, um, nevertheless skills are a long term problem. The us, uh, educational system is turning out about 10% of the skilled people that the industry needs every year. And no one I know, sees an end to that issue anytime soon. >>So ENGO, last question to you, let's talk about what that means to the practitioner. There's a lot of opportunity out >>There. >>200 plus sponsors I hear here I think is, or the projects is 200 plus, where are the big opportunities as a practitioner, as I'm thinking about the next thing that I'm going to learn to help me survive the next 10 or 15 years of my career? Where, where do you think the focus should be? Should it be that low level, uh, cloud builder, or should it be at those Le levels of extraction that we're seeing and reading about? >>I, I think, I think that, uh, you know, it's, uh, it's a good question. The, the answer is not that easy. I mean, uh, being a developer today, for sure grants, you, you know, uh, a salary at the end of the month, I mean, there is high demand, but actually there are a lot of other technical, uh, figures in, in the, in, uh, in the data center in the cloud that could, you know, really find easily a job today. So developers is the first in my mind also because they are more, uh, they, they can serve multiple roles. It means you can be a developer, but actually you can be also, you know, with the new roles that we have, especially now with the DevOps, you can be, uh, somebody that supports operation because, you know, automation, you know, a few other things. So you can be a C admin of the next generation, even if you're a developer, even if when you start as a developer, >>Cuan 20, 22 is exciting. I don't care if you're a developer practitioner, a investor, a, uh, it decision maker is CIO CXO. They're so much to learn and absorb here and we're going to be covering it for the next two days. Me and Paul will be shoulder to shoulder. We will, you, I'm not gonna say you're gonna get sick of this because it's just, you know, it's all great information. We'll, we'll, we'll help sort all of this from Valencia Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host ENCO senior, the Paul Gillon. And you're watching the, you, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>Kicking things off for Netscout's latest threat intelligence reports. I'm Lisa Martin with Richard Hummel manager of threat intelligence at NetScout. We're going to be talking about DDoSs for hire. It's a free for all Richard, welcome to the program. >>Thanks for having me. At least that's always a pleasure to do interviews with you here on acuity. >>Likewise. So, which are the dark web is a dangerous place. We know that we're adversaries own and operate DDoS for hire platforms and botnets to launch everything from free tests to high powered multi-vector attacks. What did you find? What kind of attacks are being launched on the dark web, >>Sadly, any and every type of attack you. And I think you put it eloquently that it's free a little while ago. I got a question come in from a media journalists that I was talking to and they asked me what is the average cost of a DDoS attack? And my gut reaction was mad, 10, 20 USD. I even asked another reporter later on, what do you think it costs? And he came out with two or 300 USD. And so that was kinda my expectations. Well, just because of that question, I broke up my lab and I said, you know what? I'm just going to kind of sleuth a little bit. And so I started logging in, I started looking at these underground platforms and I spend time on 19 of hundreds. There's a website out there that lists all with like three or 400 of these things, but I just chose the top 19. >>And when I started looking at these, every platform that I evaluated had some form of free attacks during launch. And these are the typical for your five attacks like NTP, cl doubt, DNS amplification. These are the, the rope or routine types of attacks we see in the DDoS threat landscape and it's free. And then it scales from there. You have $5 entry fees to do trials. You have a week trial, you can go all the way up to 6,500 USD. And the adversary reports to launch one terabit per second attack with that costs. There's another one that says, Hey, we have 150,000 button-up nodes. He has $2,500, and then you can launch it from this platform. And they also have customization. They have these little sliders on there. You can go in and say, you know what? I have five targets. I want to launch 10 attacks at once. I want it to last this many minutes. These are the vectors I want to use. And then it just tells you here's what you got to pay. Now, it used to be, you needed to have a crypto wallet to even launch a DDoS attack. Well, that's no longer the case. Second. It used to be crypto currency. Well, now they take PayPal. They take wire transfers. They do Western union transfers. And so yeah, this barrier to entry, it doesn't exist anymore. >>Wow. The evolution of data also attacks the low barrier to entry. The customization. You mentioned that you researched the top 19 validated DDoS for hire services. You guys captured the types of attacks, reported number of users and the costs to launch what you went through. What are some of the things that really stuck out to you that you found? >>I think the biggest thing, the biggest outlier that I saw with a lot of these things is that this, the sheer amount of attacks or tech types that they purport to launch that combined with one other metric that I'll, I'll tell you in just a minute. But when I started adding all of these out, I came out with a list of something like 450 different line items. This is taking the attack types from all 19 of these platforms and putting it into a spreadsheet. And then when I actually got rid of the duplicates and I started looking at each one of these to see, did they call it this? And then this one called it, this, there was still 200 different types of attacks. And these attacks are not just your typical volume metric things or your typical like botnet net related things. I mean, they're going after applications. >>They're going after capture pages. They're going after some website based anti DDoSs stuff. They're going after specific games, grand theft, auto Counter-Strike, all of these things. And they have specific attacks designed to overwhelm those layers. And you can actually see in some of the, the, the news or the update boxes they have on their platforms that they put rolling updates similar to like what you would see with Microsoft update. Here's what changed. And so they'll list, oh, we added this capture bypass, or we tweak this bypass, or guess what? We added a new server. And now you have this, this more power to launch bigger attacks. The other thing that really surprised me was the sheer number of users and attacks that they put for it to have and have launched. So across these 19 platforms, I counted over 1 million registered users. Now it could be that multiple users are registered across multiple platforms. >>And so maybe that's a little redundant, but a million or 19. And then the attacks, just whatever they showed in their platform. Now, I don't know what time segment that says it could be all time. It could be a certain snapshot, whatever, 19 of several hundred of these things, more than 10 million attacks. Now, if we look at 2020, we saw 10 million attacks on the whole year, 2021, we saw 9.7 million. So you can just see it. I mean, we're not seeing the whole breadth of the threat landscape. We see about a third probably of the world's internet traffic. And so if what they say is true, there's a lot more attacks out there than even. We talk about >>A lot more attacks than, than are even uncovered. That's shocking. The evolution of DDoSs is, is also quite shocking. One of the things I noticed in the first half 2021 threat intelligence report that NetScout published was some of the underground services offer blacklists or delisting services to prevent attacks. And I thought that sounds like a good thing, but what does that really mean? >>So actually, when we were writing the last chart report, a colleague of mine role in Dobbins had actually talked about this and he's like, Hey, I saw this thing where it's this quasi illegal organization. And they were talking about listing you as this. And they actually turn around and sell these lists. And so I started researching that a little bit. And what it turns out is these organizations, they report to be VPN services. Yeah. And they also say, you know what, we're offer these kinds of lists or block lists. We offer this VPN service, but we are also collecting your IP address. And so if you don't want us to basically resell that to somebody else, or if you want us to add that so that people can attack you based on what they're seeing on the VPN, then you can pay us money and you can do like different tiers of this. >>You can say, block me for a week or a block me for a lifetime and all of these different platforms. I wouldn't say all of them, probably four of the 19 that I looked at had this service. Now as a user, I'm not going to go to every single DDoS for hire platform. I'm not going to purchase the VPN from every single one of these. I'm not going to go and add myself to their denialist across all of these things. That's, that's kind of way too much work for one. And the cost is going to be in the thousands, if not tens of thousands, as you start to add all of these things together. And so they, they report to do something good and in turn, take your information and sell it. And what's worse is they actually assign your username or your handle or your gamer tag to that IP address. >>And so now you have this full list of IPS with gamer tags. And so an adversary Alto that has no qualms or scruples about launching DDoS attacks can then purchase that list. And guess what, Hey, this, this gamer over here who has this gamer tag, he always tells me I don't, I don't want to face them anymore. So anytime I see him in a match, I'm going to go over here to this DDoS for hire platform. And I'm going to just launch attack against him, try to knock them off of them. And so that's the kind of shady business practices that we're seeing here in the underground forums. >>Well, I knew that wasn't a good, I knew that you would actually give me the skinny on what that was. So another thing that I was wondering if it was a good, you know, despite this, you talked about the incredible diversity of these platforms, the majority of attack types that you sign are recognized and mitigated by standard defensive practices. Is that another good, bad disguise as good? >>No, in this case, it is very much good. So I, as far as I've seen, there's not a single DDoS attack type from a Google stressor service to date that you can't mitigate using preparation and your, your typical DDoSs platforms, mitigation protection systems. And even, even the bandwidth, the throughput, what some people call the size or the speed of attacks. We don't really see anything in the terabit per second range from these services. Now they'll, they'll boast about having the capability to do X number of packets per second, or this size of an attack. And so some of them will even say that, Hey, you pay us this money and we're going to give you a one terabit per second attack to date in the four years that I've been here on NetScout. And even some of my colleagues who've been around the space for decades. >>They have yet to see an attack source from one of these details for higher platforms that exceed one terabit per second in bandwidth or volume. And so they might talk a big game. They might boast about these things, but oftentimes it's, it's smoke and mirrors. It's a way to get people into their platforms to purchase things. If I had to pick kind of an average volume or size of attacks for these beer stressors on the high-end, I would say around the 150 to 200 gigabit per second. Now they're a small organization that might seem huge, but to a service provider, that's, that's probably a drop in the bucket and they can easily saturate that across their network, or observe, absorb that even without the top of the line mitigation services. So just being able to have something in place, understand how adversaries are launching these attacks, what attack vectors they are, you know, do some research. >>We have this portal called ominous threat horizon, where you can actually go in there and into your industry segment and your country. And you can just look to see, are there attacks against people like me in my country? And so, but understanding if you are the target of attacks, which it's not, if it's a win, then you can understand, okay, I need to probably have provisions in place for up to this threshold and ensure there's a tax that will exceed that. But at least you're doing due diligence to have some measure of protection, understanding that these are the typical kinds of attacks that you can expect. >>Yeah. That due diligence is key. Richard, thanks for joining me talking about DDoSs for hire a lot of interesting things there that was uncovered in a moment. Richard and I are going to be back to talk about the rise of server class bot net armies.