(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome to this CUBE conversation I'm John Furrier your host here in theCUBE in Palo Alto, California, featuring Cribl a hot startup taking over the enterprise when it comes to data pipelining, and we have a CUBE alumni who's the co-founder and CEO, Clint Sharp. Clint, great to see you again, you've been on theCUBE, you were on in 2013, great to see you, congratulations on the company that you co-founded, and leading as the chief executive officer over $200 million in funding, doing this really strong in the enterprise, congratulations thanks for joining us. >> Hey, thanks John it's really great to be back. >> You know, remember our first conversation the big data wave coming in, Hadoop World 2010, now the cloud comes in, and really the cloud native really takes data to a whole nother level. You've seeing the old data architectures being replaced with cloud scale. So the data landscape is interesting. You know, Data as Code you're hearing that term, data engineering teams are out there, data is everywhere, it's now part of how developers and companies are getting value whether it's real time, or coming out of data lakes, data is more pervasive than ever. Observability is a hot area, there's a zillion companies doing it, what are you guys doing? Where do you fit in the data landscape? >> Yeah, so what I say is that Cribl and our products and we solve the problem for our customers of the fundamental tension between data growth and budget. And so if you look at IDCs data data's growing at a 25%, CAGR, you're going to have two and a half times the amount of data in five years that you have today, and I talk to a lot of CIOs, I talk to a lot of CISOs, and the thing that I hear repeatedly is my budget is not growing at a 25% CAGR so fundamentally, how do I resolve this tension? We sell very specifically into the observability in security markets, we sell to technology professionals who are operating, you know, observability in security platforms like Splunk, or Elasticsearch, or Datadog, Exabeam, like these types of platforms they're moving, protocols like syslog, they're moving, they have lots of agents deployed on every endpoint and they're trying to figure out how to get the right data to the right place, and fundamentally you know, control cost. And we do that through our product called Stream which is what we call an observability pipeline. It allows you to take all this data, manipulate it in the stream and get it to the right place and fundamentally be able to connect all those things that maybe weren't originally intended to be connected. >> So I want to get into that new architecture if you don't mind, but let me first ask you on the problem space that you're in. So cloud native obviously instrumentating, instrumenting everything is a key thing. You mentioned data got all these tools, is the problem that there's been a sprawl of things being instrumented and they have to bring it together, or it's too costly to run all these point solutions and get it to work? What's the problem space that you're in? >> So I think customers have always been forced to make trade offs John. So the, hey I have volumes and volumes and volumes of data that's relevant to securing my enterprise, that's relevant to observing and understanding the behavior of my applications but there's never been an approach that allows me to really onboard all of that data. And so where we're coming at is giving them the tools to be able to, you know, filter out noise and waste, to be able to, you know, aggregate this high fidelity telemetry data. There's a lot of growing changes, you talk about cloud native, but digital transformation, you know, the pandemic itself and remote work all these are driving significantly greater data volumes, and vendors unsurprisingly haven't really been all that aligned to giving customers the tools in order to reshape that data, to filter out noise and waste because, you know, for many of them they're incentivized to get as much data into their platform as possible, whether that's aligned to the customer's interests or not. And so we saw an opportunity to come out and fundamentally as a customers-first company give them the tools that they need, in order to take back control of their data. >> I remember those conversations even going back six years ago the whole cloud scale, horizontally scalable applications, you're starting to see data now being stuck in the silos now to have high, good data you have to be observable, which means you got to be addressable. So you now have to have a horizontal data plane if you will. But then you get to the question of, okay, what data do I need at the right time? So is the Data as Code, data engineering discipline changing what new architectures are needed? What changes in the mind of the customer once they realize that they need this new way to pipe data and route data around, or make it available for certain applications? What are the key new changes? >> Yeah, so I think one of the things that we've been seeing in addition to the advent of the observability pipeline that allows you to connect all the things, is also the advent of an observability lake as well. Which is allowing people to store massively greater quantities of data, and also different types of data. So data that might not traditionally fit into a data warehouse, or might not traditionally fit into a data lake architecture, things like deployment artifacts, or things like packet captures. These are binary types of data that, you know, it's not designed to work in a database but yet they want to be able to ask questions like, hey, during the Log4Shell vulnerability, one of all my deployment artifacts actually had Log4j in it in an affected version. These are hard questions to answer in today's enterprise. Or they might need to go back to full fidelity packet capture data to try to understand that, you know, a malicious actor's movement throughout the enterprise. And we're not seeing, you know, we're seeing vendors who have great log indexing engines, and great time series databases, but really what people are looking for is the ability to store massive quantities of data, five times, 10 times more data than they're storing today, and they're doing that in places like AWSS3, or in Azure Blob Storage, and we're just now starting to see the advent of technologies we can help them query that data, and technologies that are generally more specifically focused at the type of persona that we sell to which is a security professional, or an IT professional who's trying to understand the behaviors of their applications, and we also find that, you know, general-purpose data processing technologies are great for the enterprise, but they're not working for the people who are running the enterprise, and that's why you're starting to see the concepts like observability pipelines and observability lakes emerge, because they're targeted at these people who have a very unique set of problems that are not being solved by the general-purpose data processing engines. >> It's interesting as you see the evolution of more data volume, more data gravity, then you have these specialty things that need to be engineered for the business. So sounds like observability lake and pipelining of the data, the data pipelining, or stream you call it, these are new things that they bolt into the architecture, right? Because they have business reasons to do it. What's driving that? Sounds like security is one of them. Are there others that are driving this behavior? >> Yeah, I mean it's the need to be able to observe applications and observe end-user behavior at a fine-grain detail. So, I mean I often use examples of like bank teller applications, or perhaps, you know, the app that you're using to, you know, I'm going to be flying in a couple of days. I'll be using their app to understand whether my flight's on time. Am I getting a good experience in that particular application? Answering the question of is Clint getting a good experience requires massive quantities of data, and your application and your service, you know, I'm going to sit there and look at, you know, American Airlines which I'm flying on Thursday, I'm going to be judging them based on off of my experience. I don't care what the average user's experience is I care what my experience is. And if I call them up and I say, hey, and especially for the enterprise usually this is much more for, you know, in-house applications and things like that. They call up their IT department and say, hey, this application is not working well, I don't know what's going on with it, and they can't answer the question of what was my individual experience, they're living with, you know, data that they can afford to store today. And so I think that's why you're starting to see the advent of these new architectures is because digital is so absolutely critical to every company's customer experience, that they're needing to be able to answer questions about an individual user's experience which requires significantly greater volumes of data, and because of significantly greater volumes of data, that requires entirely new approaches to aggregating that data, bringing the data in, and storing that data. >> Talk to me about enabling customer choice when it comes around controlling their data. You mentioned that before we came on camera that you guys are known for choice. How do you enable customer choice and control over their data? >> So I think one of the biggest problems I've seen in the industry over the last couple of decades is that vendors come to customers with hugely valuable products that make their lives better but it also requires them to maintain a relationship with that vendor in order to be able to continue to ask questions of that data. And so customers don't get a lot of optionality in these relationships. They sign multi-year agreements, they look to try to start another, they want to go try out another vendor, they want to add new technologies into their stack, and in order to do that they're often left with a choice of well, do I roll out like get another agent, do I go touch 10,000 computers, or a 100,000 computers in order to onboard this data? And what we have been able to offer them is the ability to reuse their existing deployed footprints of agents and their existing data collection technologies, to be able to use multiple tools and use the right tool for the right job, and really give them that choice, and not only give them the choice once, but with the concepts of things like the observability lake and replay, they can go back in time and say, you know what? I wanted to rehydrate all this data into a new tool, I'm no longer locked in to the way one vendor stores this, I can store this data in open formats and that's one of the coolest things about the observability late concept is that customers are no longer locked in to any particular vendor, the data is stored in open formats and so that gives them the choice to be able to go back later and choose any vendor, because they may want to do some AI or ML on that type of data and do some model training. They may want to be able to forward that data to a new cloud data warehouse, or try a different vendor for log search or a different vendor for time series data. And we're really giving them the choice and the tools to do that in a way in which was simply not possible before. >> You know you are bring up a point that's a big part of the upcoming AWS startup series Data as Code, the data engineering role has become so important and the word engineering is a key word in that, but there's not a lot of them, right? So like how many data engineers are there on the planet, and hopefully more will come in, come from these great programs in computer science but you got to engineer something but you're talking about developing on data, you're talking about doing replays and rehydrating, this is developing. So Data as Code is now a reality, how do you see Data as Code evolving from your perspective? Because it implies DevOps, Infrastructure as Code was DevOps, if Data as Code then you got DataOps, AIOps has been around for a while, what is Data as Code? And what does that mean to you Clint? >> I think for our customers, one, it means a number of I think sort of after-effects that maybe they have not yet been considering. One you mentioned which is it's hard to acquire that talent. I think it is also increasingly more critical that people who were working in jobs that used to be purely operational, are now being forced to learn, you know, developer centric tooling, things like GET, things like CI/CD pipelines. And that means that there's a lot of education that's going to have to happen because the vast majority of the people who have been doing things in the old way from the last 10 to 20 years, you know, they're going to have to get retrained and retooled. And I think that one is that's a huge opportunity for people who have that skillset, and I think that they will find that their compensation will be directly correlated to their ability to have those types of skills, but it also represents a massive opportunity for people who can catch this wave and find themselves in a place where they're going to have a significantly better career and more options available to them. >> Yeah and I've been thinking about what you just said about your customer environment having all these different things like Datadog and other agents. Those people that rolled those out can still work there, they don't have to rip and replace and then get new training on the new multiyear enterprise service agreement that some other vendor will sell them. You come in and it sounds like you're saying, hey, stay as you are, use Cribl, we'll have some data engineering capabilities for you, is that right? Is that? >> Yup, you got it. And I think one of the things that's a little bit different about our product and our market John, from kind of general-purpose data processing is for our users they often, they're often responsible for many tools and data engineering is not their full-time job, it's actually something they just need to do now, and so we've really built tool that's designed for your average security professional, your average IT professional, yes, we can utilize the same kind of DataOps techniques that you've been talking about, CI/CD pipelines, GITOps, that sort of stuff, but you don't have to, and if you're really just already familiar with administering a Datadog or a Splunk, you can get started with our product really easily, and it is designed to be able to be approachable to anybody with that type of skillset. >> It's interesting you, when you're talking you've remind me of the big wave that was coming, it's still here, shift left meant security from the beginning. What do you do with data shift up, right, down? Like what do you, what does that mean? Because what you're getting at here is that if you're a developer, you have to deal with data but you don't have to be a data engineer but you can be, right? So we're getting in this new world. Security had that same problem. Had to wait for that group to do things, creating tension on the CI/CD pipelining, so the developers who are building apps had to wait. Now you got shift left, what is data, what's the equivalent of the data version of shift left? >> Yeah so we're actually doing this right now. We just announced a new product a week ago called Cribl Edge. And this is enabling us to move processing of this data rather than doing it centrally in the stream to actually push this processing out to the edge, and to utilize a lot of unused capacity that you're already paying AWS, or paying Azure for, or maybe in your own data center, and utilize that capacity to do the processing rather than having to centralize and aggregate all of this data. So I think we're going to see a really interesting, and left from our side is towards the origination point rather than anything else, and that allows us to really unlock a lot of unused capacity and continue to drive the kind of cost down to make more data addressable back to the original thing we talked about the tension between data growth, if we want to offer more capacity to people, if we want to be able to answer more questions, we need to be able to cost-effectively query a lot more data. >> You guys had great success in the enterprise with what you got going on. Obviously the funding is just the scoreboard for that. You got good growth, what are the use cases, or what's the customer look like that's working for you where you're winning, or maybe said differently what pain points are out there the customer might be feeling right now that Cribl could fit in and solve? How would you describe that ideal persona, or environment, or problem, that the customer may have that they say, man, Cribl's a perfect fit? >> Yeah, this is a person who's working on tooling. So they administer a Splunk, or an Elastic, or a Datadog, they may be in a network operations center, a security operation center, they are struggling to get data into their tools, they're always at capacity, their tools always at the redline, they really wish they could do more for the business. They're kind of tired of being this department of no where everybody comes to them and says, "hey, can I get this data in?" And they're like, "I wish, but you know, we're all out of capacity, and you know, we have, we wish we could help you but we frankly can't right now." We help them by routing that data to multiple locations, we help them control costs by eliminating noise and waste, and we've been very successful at that in, you know, logos, like, you know, like a Shutterfly, or a, blanking on names, but we've been very successful in the enterprise, that's not great, and we continue to be successful with major logos inside of government, inside of banking, telco, et cetera. >> So basically it used to be the old hyperscalers, the ones with the data full problem, now everyone's got the, they're full of data and they got to really expand capacity and have more agility and more engineering around contributions of the business sounds like that's what you guys are solving. >> Yup and hopefully we help them do a little bit more with less. And I think that's a key problem for our enterprises, is that there's always a limit on the number of human resources that they have available at their disposal, which is why we try to make the software as easy to use as possible, and make it as widely applicable to those IT and security professionals who are, you know, kind of your run-of-the-mill tools administrator, our product is very approachable for them. >> Clint great to see you on theCUBE here, thanks for coming on. Quick plug for the company, you guys looking for hiring, what's going on? Give a quick update, take 30 seconds to give a plug. >> Yeah, absolutely. We are absolutely hiring cribl.io/jobs, we need people in every function from sales, to marketing, to engineering, to back office, GNA, HR, et cetera. So please check out our job site. If you are interested it in learning more you can go to cribl.io. We've got some great online sandboxes there which will help you educate yourself on the product, our documentation is freely available, you can sign up for up to a terabyte a day on our cloud, go to cribl.cloud and sign up free today. The product's easily accessible, and if you'd like to speak with us we'd love to have you in our community, and you can join the community from cribl.io as well. >> All right, Clint Sharp co-founder and CEO of Cribl, thanks for coming to theCUBE. Great to see you, I'm John Furrier your host thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante the pandemic not only accelerated the shift to digital but also highlighted a rush of cyber criminal sophistication collaboration and chaotic responses by virtually every major company in the planet the solar winds hack exposed supply chain weaknesses and so-called island hopping techniques that are exceedingly difficult to detect moreover the will and aggressiveness of well-organized cyber criminals has elevated to the point where incident responses are now met with counterattacks designed to both punish and extract money from victims via ransomware and other criminal activities the only upshot is the cyber security market remains one of the most enduring and attractive investment sectors for those that can figure out where the market is headed and which firms are best positioned to capitalize hello everyone and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we'll provide our quarterly update of the security industry and share new survey data from etr and thecube community that will help you navigate through the maze of corporate cyber warfare we'll also share our thoughts on the game of 3d chest that octa ceo todd mckinnon is playing against the market now we all know this market is complicated fragmented and fast moving and this next chart says it all it's an interactive graphic from optiv a denver colorado based si that's focused on cyber security they've done some really excellent research and put together this awesome taxonomy and mapped vendor names therein and this helps users navigate the complex security landscape and there are over a dozen major sectors high-level sectors within the security taxonomy in nearly 60 sub-sectors from monitoring vulnerability assessment identity asset management firewalls automation cloud data center sim threat detection and intelligent endpoint network and so on and so on and so on but this is a terrific resource and can help you understand where players fit and help you connect the dots in the space now let's talk about what's going on in the market the dynamics in this crazy mess of a landscape are really confusing sometimes now since the beginning of cyber time we've talked about the increasing sophistication of the adversary and the back and forth escalation between good and evil and unfortunately this trend is unlikely to stop here's some data from carbon black's annual modern bank heist report this is the fourth and of course now vmware's brand highlights the carbon black study since the acquisition and it catalyzed the creation of vmware's cloud security division destructive malware attacks according to the recent study are up 118 percent from last year now one major takeaway from the report is that hackers aren't just conducting wire fraud they are 57 of the bank surveyed saw an increase in wire fraud but the cyber criminals are also targeting non-public information such as future trading strategies this allows the bad guys to front run large block trades and profit it's become very lucrative practice now the prevalence of so-called island hopping is up 38 from already elevated levels this is where a virus enters a company's supply chain via a partner and then often connects with other stealthy malware downstream these techniques are more common where the malware will actually self-form with other infected parts of the supply chain and create actions with different signatures designed to identify and exfiltrate valuable information it's a really complex problem of major concern is that 63 of banking respondents in the study reported that responses to incidents were then met with retaliation designed to intimidate or initiate ransomware attacks to extract a final pound of flesh from the victim notably the study found that 75 percent of csos reported to the cio which many feel is not the right regime the study called for a rethinking of the right cyber regime where the cso has increased responsibility in a direct reporting line to the ceo or perhaps the co with greater exposure to boards of directors so many thanks to vmware and tom kellerman specifically for sharing this information with us this past week great work by your team now some of the themes that we've been talking about for several quarters are shown in the lower half of the chart cloud of course is the big driver thanks to work from home and the pandemic to pandemic and the interesting corollary of course is we see a rapid rethinking of endpoint and identity access management and the concept of zero trust in a recent esg survey two-thirds of respondents said that their use of cloud computing necessitated a change in how they approach identity access management now as shown in the chart from optiv the market remains highly fragmented and m a is of course way up now based on our research it looks like transaction volume has increased more than 40 percent just in the last five months so let's dig into the m a the merger and acquisition trends for just a moment we took a five month snapshot and we were able to count about 80 deals that were completed in that time frame those transactions represented more than 20 billion dollars in value some of the larger ones are highlighted here the biggest of course being the toma bravo taking proof point private for a 12 plus billion dollar price tag the stock went from the low 130s and is trading in the low 170s based on 176 dollar per share offer so there's your arbitrage folks go for it perhaps the more interesting acquisition was auth 0 by octa for 6.5 billion which we're going to talk about more in a moment there's more private equity action we saw as insight bought armis and iot security play and cisco shelled out 730 million dollars for imi mobile which is more of an adjacency to cyber but it's going to go under cisco's security and applications business run by g2 patel but these are just the tip of the iceberg some of the themes that we see connecting the dots of these acquisitions are first sis like accenture atos and wipro are making moves in cyber to go local they're buying secops expertise as i say locally in places like france germany netherlands canada and australia that last mile that belly-to-belly intimate service israel israeli-based startups chalked up five acquired companies in the space over the last five months also financial services firms are getting into the act with goldman and mastercard making moves to own its own part of the stack themselves to combat things like fraud and identity theft and then finally numerous moves to expand markets octa with zero crowdstrike buying a log management company palo alto picking up devops expertise rapid seven shoring up its kubernetes chops tenable expanding beyond insights and going after identity interesting fortinet filling gaps in a multi-cloud offering sale point extending to governance risk and compliance grc zscaler picked up an israeli firm to fill gaps in access control and then vmware buying mesh 7 to secure modern app development and distribution services so tons and tons of activity here okay so let's look at some of the etr data to put the cyber market in context etr uses the concept of market share it's one of the key metrics which is a measure of pervasiveness in the data set so for each sector it calculates the number of respondents for that sector divided by the total to get a sense for how prominent the sector is within the cio and i.t buyer communities okay this chart shows the full etr sector taxonomy with security highlighted across three survey periods april last year january this year in april this year now you wouldn't expect big moves in market share over time so it's relatively stable by sector but the big takeaway comes from observing which sectors are most prominent so you see that red line that dotted line imposed at the sixty percent level you can see there are only six sectors above that line and cyber security is one of them okay so we know that security is important in a large market but this puts it in the context of the other sectors however we know from previous breaking analysis episodes that despite the importance of cyber and the urgency catalyzed by the pandemic budgets unfortunately are not unlimited and spending is bounded it's not an open checkbook for csos as shown in this chart this is a two-dimensional graphic showing market share in the horizontal axis or pervasiveness and net score in the vertical axis net score is etr's measurement of spending velocity and we've superimposed a red line at 40 percent because anything over 40 percent we consider extremely elevated we've filtered and limited the number of sectors to simplify the graphic and you can see in the sectors that we've highlighted only the big four four are above that forty percent line ai containers rpa and cloud they exceed that sort of forty percent magic water line information security you can see that is highlighted and it's respectable but it competes for budget with other important sectors so this of course creates challenges for organization because not only are they strapped for talent as we've reported they like everyone else in it face ongoing budget pressures research firm cybersecurity ventures estimates that in 2021 6 trillion dollars worldwide will be lost on cyber crime conversely research firm canalis pegs security spending somewhere around 60 billion dollars annually idc has it higher around 100 billion so either way we're talking about spending between one to one point six percent annually of how much the bad guys are taking out that's peanuts really when you consider the consequences so let's double click into the cyber landscape a bit and further look at some of the companies here's that same x y graphic with the company's etr captures from respondents in the cyber security sector that's what's shown on the chart here now the usefulness of the red lines is 20 percent on the horizontal indicates the largest presence in the survey and the magic 40 percent line that we talked about earlier shows those firms with the most elevated momentum only microsoft and palo alto exceed both high water marks of course splunk and cisco are prominent horizontally and there are numerous companies to the left of the 20 percent line and many above that 40 percent high water mark on the vertical axis now in the bottom left quadrant that includes many of the legacy names that have been around for a long time and there are dozens of companies that show spending momentum on their platforms i.e above single digits so that picture is like the first one we showed you very very crowded space but so let's filter it a bit and only include companies in the etr survey that had at least a hundred responses so an n of a hundred or greater so it's a little easy to read but still it's kind of crowded when you think about it okay so same graphic and we've superimposed the data that determined the plot position over in the bottom right there so it's net score and shared n including only companies with more than 100 n so what does this data tell us about the market well microsoft is dominant as always it seems in all dimensions but let's focus on that red line for a moment some of the names that we've highlighted over the past two years show very well here first i want to talk about palo alto networks pre-covet as you might recall we highlighted the valuation divergence between palo alto and fortinet and we said fortinet was executing better on its cloud strategy and palo alto was at the time struggling with the transition especially with its go to market and its sales force compensation and really refreshing its portfolio but we told you that we were bullish on palo alto networks at the time because of its track record and the fact that cios consistently told us that they saw palo alto as a thought leader in the space that they wanted to work with they said that palo alto was the gold standard the best especially larger company cisos so that gave us confidence that palo alto a very well-run company was going to get its act together and perform better and palo alto has just done just that as we expected they've done very well and they've been rapidly moving customers to the next generation of platforms and we're very impressed by the company's execution and the stock has generally reflected that now some other names that hit our radar and the etr data a couple of years ago continue to perform well crowdstrike z-scaler sales sail point and cloudflare a cloudflare just reported and beat earnings but was off the stock fell on headwinds for tech overall the big rotation but the company is doing very well and they're growing rapidly and they have momentum as you can see from the etr data and we put that double star around proof point to highlight that it was worthy of fetching 12 and a half billion dollars from private equity firm so nice exit there supporting the continued control consolidation trend that we've predicted in cyber security now let's turn our attention to octa and auth zero this is where it gets interesting and is a clever play for octa we think and we want to drill into it a bit octa is acquiring auth zero for big money why well we think todd mckinnon octa ceo wants to run the table on identity and then continue to expand his tam he has to do that to justify his lofty valuation so octa's ascendancy around identity and single sign sign-on is notable the fragmented pictures that we've shown you they scream out for simplification and trust and that's what octa brings but it competes with some major players most notably microsoft with active directory so look of course microsoft is going to dominate in its massive customer base but the rest of the market that's like jump ball it's wide open and we think mckinnon saw the opportunity to go dominate that sector now octa comes at this from an enterprise perspective bringing top-down trust to the equation and throwing a big blanket over all the discrete sas platforms and unifying employee access octa's timing was perfect it was founded in 2009 just as the massive sasification trend was happening around crm and hr and service management and cloud etc but the one thing that octa didn't have that auth 0 does is serious developer chops while octa was crushing it with its enterprise sales strategy auth 0 was laser focused on developers and building a bottoms up approach to identity by acquiring auth0 octa can dominate both sides of the barbell and then capture the fat middle so yes it's a pricey acquisition but in our view it's a great move by mckinnon now i don't know mckinnon personally but last week i spoke to arun shrestha who's the ceo of security specialist beyond id they're a platinum services partner of octa and there a zero trust expert he worked for octa for a number of years and shared with me a bit about mckinnon's style and think big approach arun said something that caught my attention he said firewalls used to be the perimeter now people are and while that's self-serving to octa and probably beyond id it's true people apps and data are the new perimeter and they're not in one location and that's the point now unfortunately i had lined up an interview with dia jolly who was the chief product officer at octa in a cube alum for this past week knowing that we were running this segment in this episode but she unfortunately fell ill the day of our interview and had to cancel but i want to follow up with her and understand how she's thinking about connecting the dots with auth 0 with devs and enterprises and really test our thesis there this is a really interesting chess match that's going on let's look a little deeper into that identity space this chart here shows some of the major identity players it has some of the leaders in the identity market and there's a breakdown of etr's net score now net score comprises five elements the lime green is we're adding the platform new the forest green is we're spending six percent or more relative to last year the gray is flat send plus or minus flat spend plus or minus five percent the pinkish is spending less and the bright red is where exiting the platform retiring now you subtract the red from the green and that gets you the result for net score which you can see superimposed on the right hand chart at the bottom that first column there the far column is shared in which informs and indicates the number of responses and is a proxy for presence in the market oh look at the top two players in terms of spending momentum now sales sale point is right there but auth 0 combined with octa's distribution channel will extend octa's lead significantly in our view and then there's microsoft now just a caveat this includes all of microsoft's security offerings not just identity but it's there for context and cyber arc as well includes its acquisition of adaptive but also other parts of cyberarks portfolio so you can see some of the other names that are there many of which you'll find in the gartner magic quadrant for identity and as we said we really like this move by octa it combines positive market forces with lead offerings from very well-run companies that have winning dna and passionate people now to further emphasize emphasize what what's happening here take a look at this this chart shows etr data for octa within sale point and cyber arc accounts out of the 230 cyber and sale point customers in the data set there are 81 octa accounts that's a 35 overlap and the good news for octa is that within that base of sale point in cyber arc accounts octa is shown by the net score line that green line has a very elevated spending and momentum and the kicker is if you read the fine print in the right hand column etr correctly points out that while sailpoint and cyberarc have long been partners with octa at the recent octane 21 event octa's big customer event the company announced that it was expanding into privileged access management pam and identity governance hello and welcome to coopetition in the 2020s now our current thinking is that this bodes very well for octa and cyberark and sailpoint well they're going to have to make some counter moves to fend off the onslaught that is coming now let's wrap up with what has become a tradition in our quarterly security updates looking at those two dimensions of net score and market share we're going to see which companies crack the top 10 for both measures within the etr data set we do this every quarter so here on the left we have the top 20 sorted by net score or spending momentum and on the right we sort by shared n so again top 20 which informs shared end and forms the market share metric or presence in the data set that red horizontal lines those two lines on each separate the top 10 from the remaining 10 within those top 20. in our method what we do is we assign four stars to those companies that crack the top ten for both metrics so again you see microsoft palo alto networks octa crowdstrike and fortinet fortinet by the way didn't make it last quarter they've kind of been in and out and on the bubble but you know this company is very strong and doing quite well only the other four did last quarter there was same four last quarter and we give two stars to those companies that make it in both categories within the top 20 but didn't make the top 10. so cisco splunk which has been steadily decelerating from a spending momentum standpoint and z-scaler which is just on the cusp you know we really like z-scaler and the company has great momentum but that's the methodology it is what it is now you can see we kept carbon black on the rightmost chart it's like kind of cut off it's number 21 only because they're just outside looking in on netscore you see them there they're just below on on netscore number 11. and vmware's presence in the market we think that carbon black is really worth paying attention to okay so we're going to close with some summary and final thoughts last quarter we did a deeper dive on the solar winds hack and we think the ramifications are significant it has set the stage for a new era of escalation and adversary sophistication now major change we see is a heightened awareness that when you find intruders you'd better think very carefully about your next moves when someone breaks into your house if the dog barks or if you come down with a baseball bat or other weapon you might think the intruder is going to flee but if the criminal badly wants what you have in your house and it's valuable enough you might find yourself in a bloody knife fight or worse what's happening is intruders come to your company via island hopping or inside or subterfuge or whatever method and they'll live off the land stealthily using your own tools against you so they can you can't find them so easily so instead of injecting new tools in that send off an alert they just use what you already have there that's what's called living off the land they'll steal sensitive data for example positive covid test results when that was really really sensitive obviously still is or other medical data and when you retaliate they will double extort you they'll encrypt your data and hold it for ransom and at the same time threaten to release the sensitive information to crushing your brand in the process so your response must be as stealthy as their intrusion as you marshal your resources and devise an attack plan you face serious headwinds not only is this a complicated situation there's your ongoing and acute talent shortage that you tell us about all the time many companies are mired in technical debt that's an additional challenge and then you've got to balance the running of the business while actually affecting a digital transformation that's very very difficult and it's risky because the more digital you become the more exposed you are so this idea of zero trust people used to call it a buzzword it's now a mandate along with automation because you just can't throw labor at the problem this is all good news for investors as cyber remains a market that's ripe for valuation increases and m a activity especially if you know where to look hopefully we've helped you squint through the maze a little bit okay that's it for now thanks to the community for your comments and insights remember i publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com these episodes they're all available as podcasts all you do is search breaking analysis podcast put in the headphones listen when you're in your car out for your walk or run and you can always connect on twitter at divalante or email me at david.valante at siliconangle.com i appreciate the comments on linkedin and in clubhouse please follow me so you're notified when we start a room and riff on these topics and others and don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey data this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr be well and we'll see you next time [Music] you

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE Conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody Jeffrey Frick with theCUBE. We are getting through the COVID crisis. It continues and impacting the summer. I can't believe the summer's almost over, but there's a whole lot of things going on in terms of privacy and contact tracing and this kind of this feeling that there's this conflict between kind of personal identification and your personal privacy versus the public good around things like contact tracing. And I was in a session last week with two really fantastic experts. I wanted to bring them on the show and we're really excited to have back for I don't even know how many times Michelle has been on Michelle Dennedy, She is the former chief privacy officer at Cisco and now she's running the CEO of Identity, Michelle great to see you. >> Good to see you always Jeff >> Yeah and for the first time Dr. Ann Cavoukian and she is the executive director Global Privacy & Security By Design Center. Joining us from Toronto, worked with the government and is not short on opinions about privacy. (laughing) Ann good to see you. >> Hi Jeff thank you >> Yes, so let's jump into it cause I think one of the fundamental issues that we keep hearing is this zero-sum game. And I know and it's a big topic for you that there seems to be this trade off this either or and specifically let's just go to contact tracing. Cause that's a hot topic right now with COVID. I hear that it's like you're telling everybody where I'm going and you're sharing that with all these other people. How is this even a conversation and where do I get to choose whether I want to participate or not? >> You can't have people traced and tracked and surveil. You simply can't have it and it can't be an either or win lose model. You have to get rid of that data. Zero-sum game where only one person can win and the other one loses and it sums to a total of zero. Get rid of that, that's so yesterday. You have to have both groups winning positive sum. Meaning yes, you need public health and public safety and you need privacy. It's not one versus the other. We can do both and that's what we insist upon. So the contact term tracing app that was developed in Canada was based on the Apple Google framework, which is actually called exposure notification. It's totally privacy protective individuals choose to voluntarily download this app. And no personal information is collected whatsoever. No names, no geolocation data, nothing. It's simply notifies you. If you've been exposed to someone who is COVID-19 positive, and then you can decide on what action you wish to take. Do you want to go get tested? Do you want to go to your family doctor, whatever the decision lies with you, you have total control and that's what privacy is all about. >> Jeffrey: But what about the person who was sick? Who's feeding the top into that process and is the sick person that you're no notifying they obviously their personal information is part of that transaction. >> what the COVID alerts that we developed based on the Apple Google framework. It builds on manual contact tracing, which also take place the two to compliment each other. So the manual contact tracing is when individuals go get to get tested and they're tested as positive. So healthcare nurses will speak to that individual and say, please tell us who you've been in contact with recently, family, friends, et cetera. So the two work together and by working together, we will combat this in a much more effective manner. >> Jeffrey: So shifting over to you Michelle, you know, there's PIN and a lot of conversations all the time about personal identifiable information but right. But then medical has this whole nother class of kind of privacy restrictions and level of care. And I find it really interesting that on one hand, you know, we were trying to do the contract tracing on another hand if you know, my wife works in a public school. If they find out that one of the kids in this class has been exposed to COVID somehow they can't necessarily tell the teacher because of HIPAA restriction. So I wonder if you could share your thoughts on this kind of crossover between privacy and health information when it gets into this kind of public crisis and this inherent conflict for the public right to know and should the teacher be able to be told and it's not a really clean line with a simple answer, I don't think. >> No and Jeff, and you're also layering, you know, when you're talking about student data, you layering another layer of legal restriction. And I think what you're putting your thumb on is something that's really critical. When you talk about privacy engineering, privacy by design and ethics engineering. You can't simply start with the legal premise. So is it lawful to share HIPAA covered data. A child telling mommy I don't feel well not HIPAA covered. A child seeing a doctor for medical services and finding some sort of infection or illness covered, right? So figuring out the origin of the exact same zero one. Am I ill or not, all depends on context. So you have to first figure out, first of all let's tackle the moral issues. Have we decided that it is a moral imperative to expose certain types of data. And I separate that from ethics intentionally and with apologies to true ethicists. The moral imperative is sort of the things we find are so wrong. We don't want a list of kids who are sick or conversely once the tipping point goes the list of kids who are well. So then they are called out that's the moral choice. The ethical choice is just because you can should you, and that's a much longer conversation. Then you get to the legal imperative. Are you allowed to based on the past mistakes that we made. That's what every piece of litigation or legislation is particularly in a common law construct in the US. It's very important to understand that civil law countries like the European theater. They try to prospectively legislate for things that might go wrong. The construct is thinner in a common law economy where you do, you use test cases in the courts of law. That's why we are such a litigious society has its own baggage. But you have to now look at is that legal structure attempting to cover past harms that are so bad that we've decided as a society to punish them, is this a preventative law? And then you finally get to what I say is stage four for every evaluation is isn't viable, are the protections that you have to put on top of these restrictions. So dire that they either cannot be maintained because of culture process or cash or it just doesn't make sense anymore. So does it, is it better to just feel someone's forehead for illness rather than giving a blood assay, having it sent away for three weeks and then maybe blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. >> Right. >> You have to look at this as a system problem solving issue. >> So I want to look at it in the context of, again kind of this increased level of politicization and or, you know, kind of exposure outside of what's pretty closed. And I want to bring up AIDS and the porn industry very frankly right? Where people behaving in the behavior of the business risk a life threatening disease of which I still don't think it as a virus. So you know why, cause suddenly, you know, we can track for that and that's okay to track for that. And there's a legitimate reason to versus all of the other potential medical conditions that I may or may not have that are not necessarily brought to bear within coming to work. And we might be seeing this very soon. As you said, if people are wanting our temperatures, as we come in the door to check for symptoms. How does that play with privacy and healthcare? It's still fascinates me that certain things is kind of pop out into their own little bucket of regulation. I'm wondering if you could share your thoughts on that Ann. >> You know, whenever you make it privacy versus fill in the blank, especially in the context of healthcare. You end up turning it to a lose lose as opposed to even a win lose. Because you will have fewer people wanting to allow themselves to be tested, to be brought forward for fear of where that information may land. If it lands in the hands of your employer for example or your whoever owns your house if you're in renting, et cetera. It creates enormous problems. So regardless of what you may think of the benefits of that model. History has shown that it doesn't work well that people end up shying away from being tested or seeking treatment or any of those things. Even now with the contact tracing apps that have been developed. If you look globally the contact tracing apps for COVID-19. They have failed the ones that identify individuals in the UK, in Australia, in Western Canada that's how it started out. And they've completely dropped them because they don't work. People shy away from them. They don't use them. So they've gotten rid of that. They've replaced it with the, an app based on the Apple Google framework, which is the one that protects privacy and will encourage people to come forward and seek to be tested. If there's a problem in Germany. Germany is one of the largest privacy data protection countries in the world. Their privacy people are highly trusted in Germany. Germany based their app on the Apple Google framework. About a month ago they released it. And within 24 hours they had 6.5 million people download the app. >> Right. >> Because there is such trust there unlike the rest of the world where there's very little trust and we have to be very careful of the trust deficit. Because we want to encourage people to seek out these apps so they can attempt to be tested if there's a problem, but they're not going to use them. They're just going to shy away from them. If there is such a problem. And in fact I'll never forget. I did an interview about a month ago, three weeks ago in the US on a major major radio station that has like 54 million people followers. And I was telling them about the COVID alert the Canadian contact tracing app, actually it's called exposure notification app, which was built on the Apple Google framework. And people in hoard said they wouldn't trust anyone with it in the US. They just wouldn't trust it. So you see there's such a trust deficit. That's what we have to be careful to avoid. >> So I want to hold on the trust for just a second, but I want to go back to you Michelle and talk about the lessons that we can learn post 9/11. So the other thing right and keep going back to this over and over. It's not a zero-sum game. It's not a zero-sum game and yet that's the way it's often positioned as a way to break down existing barriers. So if you go back to 9/11 probably the highest profile thing being the Patriot Act, you know, where laws are put in place to protect us from terrorism that are going to do things that were not normally allowed to be done. I bet without checking real exhaustively that most of those things are still in place. You know, cause a lot of times laws are written. They don't go away for a long time. What can we learn from what happened after 9/11 and the Patriot Act and what should be really scared of, or careful of or wary of using that as a framework for what's happening now around COVID and privacy. >> It's a perfect, it's not even an analogy because we're feeling the shadows of the Patriot Act. Even now today, we had an agreement from the United States with the European community until recently called the Privacy Shield. And it was basically if companies and organizations that were, that fell under the Federal Trade Commissions jurisdiction, there's a bit of layering legal process here. But if they did and they agreed to supply enough protection to data about people who were present in the European Union to the same or better level than the Europeans would. Then that information could pass through this Privacy Shield unencumbered to and from the United States. That was challenged and taken down. I don't know if it's a month ago or if it's still March it's COVID time, but very recently on basis that the US government can overly and some would say indifferent nations, improperly look at European data based on some of these Patriot Act, FISA courts and other intrusive mechanisms that absolutely do apply if we were under the jurisdiction of the United States. So now companies and private actors are in the position of having to somehow prove that they will mechanize their systems and their processes to be immune from their own government intrusion before they can do digital trade with other parts of the world. We haven't yet seen the commercial disruption that will take place. So the unintended consequence of saying rather than owning the answers or the observations and the intelligence that we got out of the actual 9/11 report, which said we had the information we needed. We did not share enough between the agencies and we didn't have the decision making activity and will to take action in that particular instance. Rather than sticking to that knowledge. Instead we stuck to the Patriot Act, which was all but I believe to Congress people. When I mean, you see the hot mess. That is the US right now. When everyone but two people in the room vote for something on the quick. There's probably some sort of a psychological gun to your head. That's probably well thought out thing. We fight each other. That's part of being an American dammit. So I think having these laws that say, you've got to have this one solution because the boogeyman is coming or COVID is coming or terrorists or child pornographers are coming. There's not one solution. So you really have to break this down into an engineering problem and I don't mean technology when I say engineering. I mean looking at the culture, how much trust do you have? Who is the trusted entity? Do we trust Microsoft more than we trust the US government right now? Maybe that might be your contact. How you're going to build people, process and technology not to avoid a bad thing, but to achieve a positive objective because if you're not achieving that positive objective of understanding that safe to move about without masks on, for example, stop, just stop. >> Right, right. My favorite analogy Jeff, and I think I've said this to you in the past is we don't sit around and debate the merits of viscosity of water to protect concrete holes. We have to make sure that when you lead them to the concrete hole, there's enough water in the hole. No, you're building a swimming pool. What kind of a swimming pool do you want? Is it commercial, Is it toddlers? Is it (indistinct), then you build in correlation, protection and da da da da. But if you start looking at every problem as how to avoid hitting a concrete hole. You're really going to miss the opportunity to build and solve the problem that you want and avoid the risk that you do not want. >> Right right, and I want to go back to you on the trust thing. You got an interesting competent in that other show, talking about working for the government and not working directly for the people are voted in power, but for the kind of the larger bureaucracy and agency. I mean, the Edelman Trust Barometer is really interesting. They come out every year. I think it's their 20th year. And they break down kind of like media, government and business. And who do you trust and who do you not trust? What what's so fascinating about the time we're in today is even within the government, the direction that's coming out is completely diametrically opposed oftentimes between the Fed, the state and the local. So what does kind of this breakdown of trust when you're getting two different opinions from the same basic kind of authority due to people's ability or desire to want to participate and actually share the stuff that maybe or maybe not might get reshared. >> It leaves you with no confidence. Basically, you can't take confidence in any of this. And when I was privacy commissioner. I served for three terms, each term that was a different government, different political power in place. And before they had become the government, they were all for privacy and data protection believed in and all that. And then once they became the government all that changed and all of a sudden they wanted to control everyone's information and they wanted to be in power. No, I don't trust government. You know, people often point to the private sector as being the group you should distrust in terms of privacy. I say no, not at all. To me far worse is actually the government because everyone thinks they're there to do good job and trust them. You can't trust. You have to always look under the hood. I always say trust but verify. So unfortunately we have to be vigilant in terms of the protections we seek for privacy both with private sector and with the government, especially with the government and different levels of government. We need to ensure that people's privacy remains intact. It's preserved now and well into the future. You can't give up on it because there's some emergency a pandemic, a terrorist incident whatever of course we have to address those issues. But you have to insist upon people's privacy being preserved. Privacy forms the foundation of our freedom. You cannot have free and open societies without a solid foundation of privacy. So I'm just encouraging everyone. Don't take anything at face value, just because the government tells you something. It doesn't mean it's so always look under the hood and let us ensure the privacy is strongly protected. See emergencies come and go. The pandemic will end. What cannot end is our privacy and our freedom. >> So this is a little dark in here, but we're going to lighten it up a little bit because there's, as Michelle said, you know, if you think about building a pool versus putting up filling a hole, you know, you can take proactive steps. And there's a lot of conversation about proactive steps and I pulled Ann your thing Privacy by Design, The 7 Foundational Principles. I have the guys pull up a slide. But I think what's really interesting here is, is you're very, very specific prescriptive, proactive, right? Proactive, not reactive. Privacy is the default setting. You know, don't have to read the ULAs and I'm not going to read the, all the words we'll share it. People can find it. But what I wanted to focus on is there is an opportunity to get ahead of the curve, but you just have to be a little bit more thoughtful. >> That's right, and Privacy By Design it's a model of prevention, much like a medical model of prevention where you try to prevent the harms from arising, not just deal with them after the facts through regulatory compliance. Of course we have privacy laws and that's very important, but they usually kick in after there's been a data breach or privacy infraction. So when I was privacy commissioner obviously those laws were intact and we had to follow them, but I wanted something better. I wanted to prevent the privacy harms from arising, just like a medical model of prevention. So that's a Privacy By Design is intended to do is instantiate, embed much needed privacy protective measures into your policies, into your procedures bake it into the code so that it has a constant presence and can prevent the harms from arising. >> Jeffrey: Right right. One of the things I know you love to talk about Michelle is compliance, right? And is compliance enough. I know you like to talk about the law. And I think one of the topics that came up on your guys' prior conversation is, you know, will there be a national law, right? GDPR went through on the European side last year, the California Protection Act. A lot of people think that might become the model for more of a national type of rule. But I tell you, when you watch some of the hearings in DC, you know, I'm sure 90% of these people still print their emails and have their staff hand them to them. I mean, it's really scary that said, you know, regulation always does kind of lag probably when it needs to be put in place because people maybe abuse or go places they shouldn't go. So I wonder if you could share your thoughts on where you think legislation is going to going and how should people kind of see that kind of playing out over the next several years, I guess. >> Yeah, it's such a good question Jeff. And it's like, you know, I think even the guys in Vegas are having trouble with setting the high laws on this. Cameron said in I think it was December of 2019, which was like 15 years ago now that in the first quarter of 2020, we would see a federal law. And I participated in a hearing at the Senate banking committee, again, November, October and in the before times. I'm talking about the same thing and here we are. Will we have a comprehensive, reasonable, privacy law in the United States before the end of this president's term. No, we will not. I can say that with just such faith and fidelity. (laughing) But what does that mean? And I think Katie Porter who I'm starting to just love, she's the Congresswoman who's famous for pulling on her white board and just saying, stop fudging the numbers. Let's talk about the numbers. There's about a, what she calls the 20% legislative flip phone a caucus. So there are 20% or more on both sides of the aisle of people in the US who are in the position of writing our laws. who are still on flip phones and aren't using smart phones and other kinds of technologies. There's a generation gap. And as much as I can kind of chuckle at that a little bit and wink, wink, nudge, nudge, isn't that cute. Because you know, my dad, as you know, is very very technical and he's a senior citizen. This is hard. I hope he doesn't see that but... (laughing) But then it's not old versus young. It's not let's get a whole new group and crop and start over again. What it is instead and this is, you know, as my constant tome sort of anti compliance. I'm not anti compliance. You got to put your underwear on before your pants or it's just really hard. (laughing) And I would love to see anyone who is capable of putting their underwater on afterwards. After you've made the decision of following the process. That is so basic. It comes down to, do you want the data that describes or is donated or observed about human beings. Whether it's performance of your employees. People you would love to entice onto your show to be a guest. People you'd like to listen and consume your content. People you want to meet. People you want to marry. Private data as Ann says, does the form the foundation of our freedom, but it also forms the foundation of our commerce. So that compliance, if you have stacked the deck proactively with an ethics that people can understand and agree with and have a choice about and feel like they have some integrity. Then you will start to see the acceleration factor of privacy being something that belongs on your balance sheet. What kind of data is high quality, high nutrition in the right context. And once you've got that, you're in good shape. >> I'm laughing at privacy on the balance sheet. We just had a big conversation about data on the balance sheets. It's a whole, that's a whole another topic. So we can go for days. I have Pages and pages of notes here. But unfortunately I know we've got some time restrictions. And so, and I want to give you the last word as you look forward. You've been in this for a while. You've been in it from the private side, as well as the government side. And you mentioned lots of other scary things, kind of on the horizon. Like the kick of surveillance creep, which there's all kinds of interesting stuff. You know, what advice do you give to citizens. What advice do you give to leaders in the public sector about framing the privacy conversation >> I always want to start by telling them don't frame privacy as a negative. It's not a negative. It's something that can build so much. If you're a business, you can gain a competitive advantage by strongly protecting your customer's privacy because then it will build such loyalty and you'll gain a competitive advantage. You make it work for you. As a government you want your citizens to have faith in the government. You want to encourage them to understand that as a government you respect their privacy. Privacy is highly contextual. It's only the individual who can make determinations relating to the disclosure of his or her personal information. So make sure you build that trust both as a government and as a business, private sector entity and gain from that. It's not a negative at all, make it work for you, make it work for your citizens, for your customers, make it a plus a win win that will give you the best returns. >> Isn't it nice when doing the right thing actually provides better business outcomes too. It's like diversity of opinion and women on boards. And kind of things- >> I love that. we cover these days. >> Well ladies, thank you very very much for your time. I know you've got a hard stop, so I'm going to cut you loose or else we would go for probably another hour and a half, but thank you so much for your time. Thank you for continuing to beat the drum out there and look forward to our next conversation. Hopefully in the not too distant future. >> My pleasure Jeff. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you too. >> All right She's Michelle. >> She's Ann. I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, it's theCUBE. Covering IBM Think, brought to you by IBM. >> Hey welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. Welcome back to theCUBE's continuing coverage of IBM Think 2020, the digital experience. We've been covering Think since the beginning and this is the first year that they've gone to the virtual conference, obviously with the COVID situation. We're excited to have our next guest. She's Sarah Diamond, the Global Managing Director for Banking and Financial Markets for IBM. Sarah, great to see you. >> Thank you. >> Great, so, let's just jump into it. You've been dealing with financial services and financial markets for a long time. In getting ready for this interview, I stumbled across some old stuff you did in 2016, kind of talking about cloud adoption in financial services. But we all know financial services has special restrictions in terms of privacy and regulations, and making sure that stuff stays stable and fulfills the obligations, reporting obligations. But, there's so many great things that come from cloud in terms of speed of innovation, cost, and all these other things. You've been working in this space for a long time. There's some exciting work that you've been doing. How are you helping financial institutions leverage cloud in a better way? >> Yeah, it's a great place to start. As you say, financial services clients have been looking at the cloud for several years. But actually, it's interesting that notwithstanding the great focus on the opportunity presented by cloud, in terms of the agility of the architecture, speed, resiliency, and cost savings, are less than 10% of their workload has actually moved to the cloud. And that's because, as you say, there are very, very strict requirements over what workload can move to the cloud, as it relates to data privacy, security, et cetera. And so, as we looked at how much our clients were struggling to be able to move their workloads over to the cloud, we realized the need to come up with a financial services specific cloud. And we've been very fortunate to do that in conjunction with one of our main clients, Bank of America. And we will be launching the first Financial Services Cloud for the industry. >> Wow, that is wow. First, I'm shocked that you say only 10% of the workloads have made the conversion to the cloud in the current situation, which seems very, very low. >> Actually, I said less than 10%. >> Less than 10% not even 10%. >> Even less than that. >> So what are some of the specific attributes of the Financial Services Cloud that IBM's rolling out, that will enable them to move that number, hopefully well north of 10% in the not too distant future? >> Yeah, well I think the first place to start is secure and really at a enterprise grade level for financial services so that, the financial services can provide the level of security and resiliency that's needed as they run mission-critical systems for the world. Wrapped around that then, is being absolutely sure that the way the cloud is built meets all of the regulatory requirements as it relates to both risk analysis, and again, security. And we acquired, three years ago, Promontory, which is the preeminent regulatory advisory company for financial services. And one of the huge benefits of having Promontory in our portfolio is to be able to leverage their expertise to do this. And then there's things like making sure that the cloud will support a rich catalog of the ISVs and the SaaS providers that our clients want to be able to work with and that it dovetails seamlessly into other infrastructure services, whether it's VMware, Cloud native, Red Hat OpenShift, et cetera. >> I'm just curious there, to get your take on kind of the complexity of the regulatory environment, 'cause clearly just knowing the US regulations per se, very, very complicated in financial services. But you guys are dealing with global, multinationals, as well as banks established all around the world. >> Yeah. >> Just for the laymen, how much delta is there between the various regulations that either apply to a bank within a particular country, as well as when banks do business across a lot of countries, do they have to comply with every single regulatory infrastructure in the markets in which they serve? That's got to be a crazy mess >> Absolutely. >> Yeah, absolutely, they do. So they both have to comply with the regulator of their home country and they have to comply with the regulations in any other country that they do business. And whilst there's definitely a level of consistency across the regulations, they're not a single set of regulations. So it requires a great deal of knowledge, insight and preparation to make sure that they're going to remain compliant in every country in which they do business. >> A lot of boxes to check. >> Exactly. >> And again, that interview that I saw, it was 2016, we're now in 2020, right? So it's been four or five years. And what's interesting is, on kind of the pace on digital transformation is not super, super fast. But here we are with COVID-19. And COVID-19 has just been this light switch moment that nobody had time to prepare for. So whether it's working from home or we're participating here in a digital conference, Think is not a physical event like it's been in the past. So it's been this kind of light switch forcing function on a lot of things. As you look at your client base, within the financial services industry, what are some of the impacts that maybe people aren't thinking about, of COVID, on their ability to deliver their services? >> Yes, and I think there's two parts to your question, as I think of it. One is, which of the financial services clients were able to adapt most quickly to the requirements of being able to operate in essentially, the lockdown work from home environment imposed by COVID-19? And then the second part is, what are the waves that we see going forward for the industry? It's really interesting because clearly those clients that had moved already to a much more agile, hybrid environment were much more digital in their capabilities, had much better security around their data assets, were ones that were able to make the shift quickest. And those that were somewhat behind, lagged in those areas, are the ones that struggled, or took longer to make the shift. I think the shift has come, initially, all around how to move the predominant workforce to work from home. Most clients now, 70 or 80% or more of their workforce are working from home. And that's a huge shift for most of the banks, where notwithstanding the offshore work they were doing, still virtually all of their staff are onshore. So that was a huge effort. And with that, they needed both extra security, to make sure that there was not going to open up any security risks in doing it, capacity, because obviously capacity peaked. And then obviously just the tools and the knowhow to know how to work from home. So that was a huge piece. Those clients that had significant trading operations saw huge peaks and troughs in the trading, so you got this huge volatility around trading, as well as, of course, the huge volatility around the results. And then I think a third category of this, is just how to continue to service their clients, their customers, in a remote way. And when you look at banks, for example in Italy, some of the Italian banks have closed down up to 70% of their branches, again, to create the security that was needed to withstand the epidemic. In the U.S., you hear numbers more in the 50% range. But that's a huge shift in terms of how to support your customers in a continuous way. And just with that, as you might imagine, huge peaks in call center volumes, and challenges in terms of how to deal with that. And these are all things, as you pointed out earlier, that bring intense focus on the ability to leverage digital technology and be able to support both the employees and the customers in a seamless, secure way, online. >> There's so many, kind of facets to this, if you will, and the one that strikes me, as you're talking about the work from home, we've had a lot of work from home conversations over the last several weeks, right? A big piece of this is enabling your workforce to do that. What strikes me, the difference about banks and financial institutions is, not only do they have digital security, but they have a lot of physical security. And physical security of assets that is not so easily digitized. So, where are some of those kind of physical operations, literally like moving cash around and taking deposits and some of those things? Are they just trying to consolidate those operations to fewer points of presence? How are they kind of managing that piece of it? >> Yeah, and you bring to mind a great story that one of our managing directors who supports a client in Brazil just shared with us, because this client is a huge retail bank in Brazil, and supports the Brazilian population throughout the country. And as you say, a lot of the movement of assets, cash, is still physical. So indeed, they had to put together teams that would continue to be able to take cash to different sites, up and down the Amazon River, not withstanding all the concerns about moving around in the COVID environment. So, what you've seen is that mission-critical needs are still obviously having to be done by teams, physically onsite or moving around. And typically the way the banks have bene able to do that is they've created two or three teams that basically mirror or parallel each other, so that if one team got infected, then the second or the third team could fill in. So they've created this redundancy, or this contingency, in their team structures. >> Yeah, it's really, yeah, a unique challenge 'cause that money's got to move, right? It's got to go. Again, back to the digital transformation, one of the themes that we've seen happen over the course of time is kind of going to your point, kind of from a, where can we use cloud, to kind of a cloud first. And I guess financial services is lagging that a little bit. We saw it kind of in mobile applications too, where mobile was an afterthought, and now for a lot of people, it's mobile first. And I think in a lot of underdeveloped countries, the phone, a mobile phone, is the primary conduit to a lot of services like banking and those things. So I wonder now, as you look forward and as we get used to this behavior, and as systems and infrastructure get put in place over time to support the work from home, the lockdown, and just less people moving around, how do you see that changing? Will it get to, from a workload point of view, kind of a work from home first, versus work from home is kind of this adjunct. Do you see that taking hold over the course of several months of being in this new normal? How do you think it's going to reshape the financial services industry, as we get out of this over some period of months, or maybe many, many months? >> Yes, and I think again, you're pointing to two aspects of this. So first is, how banks will continue to support their customers. And as we've just said, many customers have started to use much more online, digital banking than they had before. And so what we expect to see is now an acceleration of the banks moving to digital online services for their clients. Because there's been a breakthrough here, which has been forced by the circumstances, and suddenly, the opportunities are opened up and they'll become even more competitive advantages to be able to do that. Both because of the client experience, but also because of the cost implications and the speed and agility to market around that. And then the other part is always the employees. So it's the clients and it's the employees. And we're already hearing our clients are engaged in conversations with our client, where they're saying, "Look, even when this epidemic passes and we'll feel confident about asking our employees to return to the office, we no longer want to just go back to where we were." And there's a lot of work already being done to look at different job categories to decide which ones can be done remotely, just as effectively as onsite, and which ones will need to be onsite or in front of the client. So to your point, I think this is going to really, really, accelerate the digitization of the industry on all fronts. >> Yeah, it is kind of this new way to think of it, not can it go remote, but why can't it not? >> Exactly. >> And I can't help but think of the infrastructure for someone in financial services in terms of the VPNs and the security on those systems, and I'm sure there's all kinds of crazy firewalls and stuff within a bank's physical four walls that is just not that easy to pick that up and go stick it in somebody's house, especially with no real opportunity for planning, or resourcing, or rolling out. And then we've seen the same thing, as you mentioned, in the call centers, which are another huge piece of the customer service experience, which again, all those people are now moved out. And we're hearing those same things, how much of them can stay moved out and stay remote, and what will it take to support them to give that same level of service. >> Well, and also, how much can move to actual automation, right? So one of the things we've seen, given not just the move of the call center employees to work remotely but even more importantly, I think given the volume of call center inquiries that have been occurring, is much more eagerness to start to use automation in that. So for example, our Watson capabilities that have been used in call centers. For some years now, there's been a big uptick in the demand of using those in the call centers so that you're agents can focus on the truly complex questions and the routing questions can get answered digitally. >> Right. >> I think the other point that we should bring out in this conversation is just the financial impact on the industry, right? We've already seen huge degradation in terms of the likelihood of huge credit exposure and what's that going to mean for the financial services industry. Loss of revenue today, given the market challenges. And so, we are seeing right now, huge focus on how to take cost out of the industry dramatically. And you're hearing banks talk about needing to take up to 40% of their cost structure down, which is going to require, yet again, a massive shift in terms of how the banks operate. >> Wow, 40%, that is a huge number. But it also just begs the question for those who got ahead of the curve a little bit. They're the ones that are going to come out of this. I would assume, in a much better position because banks, we think of them as the old state institution with the fancy building down on the corner, downtown, with the columns. But in fact, they've been at the cutting edge of technology for a really long time. It's such a hyper-competitive market, the margins are so thin, the benefits, the speed and better customer experience are so huge when you're basically trading in the commodity of cash and trying to build all those services around it. So do you expect it'll really kind of a shake out between those that were already kind of on the bandwagon a little bit and really driving forward on their digital transformation, versus the laggers that just were kind of slow to the party and now suddenly, the door to the party is closing? >> Yeah, I think you'll see some of that. I also think you're going to see more, if you like, model shift. So, one of the things that has been a constant topic of conversation is, what are core competencies that banks should be in, and what are capabilities that the banks no longer need to provide? They may have provided in the past, but they no longer need to provide in the future. And, how can they leverage a broader ecosystem, right, to be able to tap into expertise that is maybe better elsewhere and doesn't need to be a core expertise of the bank? So, I think you'll see, yes, those banks that have been moved faster, have had bigger technology investment and have been able to move faster on the digital journey doing better coming out of this. I think, very importantly for the industry as a whole, you'll start to see even more of those shifts in terms of what are core competencies that the banks need to provide, versus where do they leverage an ecosystem to provide those capabilities or services for them. And again, some of the most innovative banks are quite far down, thinking in that road. And that's again, where the role of Vintex come in, right? Because banks don't need to build and develop all of their own technology assets. They create the platform, they create the access to their customer base and then other technology firms provide products onto those platforms. >> Right. Well, rough seas for financial services as it is for everybody, as we navigate these uncharted waters. We're five or six weeks into it, things seem to be settling a little bit down. And at least in terms of the daily shocks that we were going through, through the course of March. And I think we are helping to define a new normal. I don't think, and I would imagine you would agree, that coming out of this is not going to be the same as going into it. January 2021 is not going to look like January 2020 did, at all. So just give you the final word as you look forward with some hope and enthusiasm and a smile. For your clients, what do you see as some of the positive benefits that we're going to realize in the post-COVID world? >> Well, I think when you go through huge shocks like this, which have obviously had huge, huge personal impact, but they've also had huge system impact, there's always a flight to quality, and there's a flight to those players that really represent the trust and the core of a industry. And so, I think the same will be for the financial services industry. There's been a lot of discussion about non-traditional entrants into financial services. At the end of the day, I think this is also an opportunity for banks to stand up and uphold the fact that they're trusted sources of service to their customer base, they do understand how to navigate through, as you've said, these unprecedented times, securely, protecting their customers' data and their assets. So I think you will see a resurgence of the role of a trusted industry in the path forward. >> Well Sarah, thank you for coming on. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and perspectives, and your ongoing expertise in the field. Really enjoyed the conversation, and stay safe out there. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. >> All right. She's Sarah Diamond. I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching theCUBE's continuing coverage of IBM Think 2020, the digital experience. Thanks for watching and I'll see you next time. (bright upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering UiPath Forward Americas 2019. Brought to you by UiPath. >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of UiPath Forward. I'm your host Rebecca Knight, co-hosting alongside of Dave Vellante. We're joined by Param Kahlon, he is the Chief Product Officer at UiPath, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you so much for having me here. >> So-- >> Big week! >> Yes. >> You've been busy! >> I have been busy. >> (Rebecca laughs) >> Thank you David. >> So this morning, you were up on the main stage, and you were sort of giving the audience a state of play of business today. And you were lamenting, saying, "Wasn't technology supposed to make our lives easier? "Wasn't it supposed to free us from the mundane, "and supposed to make us more efficient?" And yet, hasn't quite ended up that way. You had the quote, the famous quote, "We see computers everywhere "except in the productivity statistics," from Robert Solow, the Nobel winner. Can you refine that a little bit? And particularly within the context of the RPA market. >> Yeah, isn't it exciting? I mean, we really have so much technology that we live in today, yet we're busier, we're doing more mundane work than we've ever done before. We're more stressed than ever before. That just seems sort of paradoxical to me that, you know, all this stuff that was supposed to give us more time to do the things that we wanted to do, yet we keep doing the repetitive, robot type work that, you know, we thought technology will free us from. And I think that's fascinating that, you know, that's happening. And I think there's a few theories on why we think that's happening. I think it's happening because business has gotten a lot more complex. You know, companies are having to change business models on the fly. Digital transformation is effecting standard companies, regulated industries, in ways that they did not imagine, and companies don't know how to cope and manage all the technology well. And this where, I think, RPA is really, really useful, because it can help you change the processes, modernize the processes without having to go change, rip and replace those existing systems. You know, do the work that you were going to hire humans to do in moving data, moving processes from one system to another. Do that through robots. And that's what our robots can help free the humans, to be able to focus on the things that matter, the things that they care about, right? That's really what the beauty of the RPA is. >> So I wonder if you can help our audience, you know, understand UiPath a little bit better. You know, Daniel talks about, how is it that UiPath has ascended so quickly? And you appear to be achieving escape velocity. You kind of started out, you know, third, fourth, whatever it was, and now you're sort of number one in all these quadrants and waves. And so yesterday you talked about five pillars. And I want to unpack them a little bit. Open platform, rapid results, which I think is around ROI. Path to AI, scalability, and trust. So here's my question. Any one of your competitors could say the same thing. "Oh yes, we're open. "Oh, we get rapid ROI." So what makes UiPath different? >> I think actually not just saying those words, but making it happen, right? So anybody can say we've opened, we've done something, but do people actually have 400,000 community members that have actually using the platform on an active basis? Can you actually go to a website over the last two years and download the software and use it? How long does it take you to sign up for a cloud service that we have made available? What does it take for you to do that? I think all the things that we've invested in, in really enabling engagement with the community, right? Making it open, not just from a technology perspective, but from a people perspective as well, are the things that have differentiated ourselves. And those can be very generic terms, that you're right, other people can use as well, but I think we live those terms, right? We actually do everything in the product, from the business perspective, to make sure that openness is embraced. You know, when we look at building new capabilities, new products, we focus on, is it actually going to help our customers get quicker value, right? Is it going to help them reduce five clicks to be able to get that process done? And if so, then we should build this feature because it will make it easier, and engage more people in the audience, more people like the customer to be able to get work done. So we're super excited about bringing all those capabilities >> Okay, so the big part of that is the product. I mean if you have a great product, that always helps. It's not the sole condition, but it helps a lot. >> Param: Yeah. >> Many times we've seen leaders that don't have the best product, but I'm guessing you feel as though you have the best product. So architecturally, what is it about UiPath that's different, that differentiates you? >> Yeah, I think the core difference is, I'd say, fundamentally at a company level, is in our culture. This is a culture that's built around customers. This is a culture that's built around humility. This is a culture that's built around getting things done, and being fast about it, right? You saw a lot of product innovation that we did. If we told you a year ago, we're going to do all this, you would've laughed at our face, right? We're continue to do that pace, at the pace the market wants. And I think that is the fundamental difference in us, versus the rest of the companies out there. I'd also like to believe that we are, from a technology perspective, we have an edge, because we didn't start with the legacy of doing RPA many, many years ago. We have a much more modern stack. You alluded to the fact that we came in from behind, and we've taken to the number one place very quickly. I think part of that is the architecture decisions that we've made are more modern, are not vetted in a lot of legacy, that are helping us bring more rapid innovation to the market. That are helping us build more resilient technology, that's helping our customers achieve those outcomes, the goals that they want to be able to do, more easily on our platform. We have a number of our customers that actually did not start with us. They started with one of our competitors, and they said, "We started, we thought it was going to work, "it didn't. We came to UiPath and we saw that "it actually works." And that's a testament to the technology that we built, that's actually helping deliver the results that our customers expect it to. >> Rebecca: So, >> Dave: You know, >> Sorry Rebecca, go ahead. >> I was just going to say that, one of the other things you said this morning, was that bots allow you to focus on you, focus on the more creative aspects of your job, and you brought up some customers, PepsiCo and Nielsen, too. Can you describe sort of, how you're helping customers focus on themselves, these employees who are now, you're taking away the tedium, and that's great, and they're giddy about that. But how are they, then, channeling that energy into strategy, innovation, and the sort of more value added things? >> Param: Yeah, you know I'll give you a really quick example of a customer, that I worked with, it's a bank. And in this bank, it's a retail bank, and what used to happen before we deployed UiPath, was the banker had to go to like six different applications, and pull reports of the customer they were about to go meet, print them all out, review the data, and be able to suggest what the customer's unique needs might be, right? So for that half an hour appointment with the customer, it used to take that banker another half an hour to get ready for that appointment. After the deployed UiPath robots, UiPath's robots now go pull up the data for the customer, from those six different core banking systems, and be able to feed that to a machine learning system, to suggest what their unique needs might be. So they need five minutes to get ready for that appointment. They're more ready for that appointment, and they deliver a better outcome. People want to help other people, right? They don't want to go to systems, and print reports, and read them, and understand what it might be. They really want to be able to go meet with the customer, and help solve their problems, that help the customer, but also help the business goals for the bank. And that's what makes the people that are using our technology more happier, right? It makes them free enough to say that, instead of now spending half an hour printing stuff, I now have that extra 25 minutes, because I still need five minutes to get ready, I have the extra 25 minutes, to think about, what else can I do to further more creative aspects of my job? Or maybe I don't have to work as hard as I did in the past. >> I wonder if I could ask you about, I've been drawing parallels today with another company, ServiceNow, that I've been tracking for a long time. And they started out in this kind of narrow, change management, ITSM space >> Param: ITSM, yeah. >> And then expanded their TAM dramatically. And you shared with us, yesterday and today in the keynote, You've got RPA for devs and testers, you know StudioT, that targets 2% of the market. and then you've got the citizen developers, that's StudioX, that expands up to 10%. Business analysts, which is Explorer and Insights, that gets you to 25%. And then apps, where automation is the apps, that was a little fuzzy to me, so I want to dig into it a little bit, but that's 100% of the market. That's your, whatever it is, 20, 40, 50 billion dollar TAM. My question is this, I was going to the event last night, and I ran into some business analysts. So you're already working with those folks. So it seems like you're learning from folks that are sort of using a product, that was maybe developed for testers and devs, but they're using it today as business analysts, and you're improving that. Can you help us just understand your product strategy, just in terms of what you've announced, and how it dove tails into those segments that we just talked about? >> Absolutely, so you know, our product strategy isn't tied to like, what are we going to do to grow our TAM, and other stuff. Our marketing organizers can get super excited about that, Bobby is all over that, but really everything we've done in the product today, is about listening to customers. Understanding what their needs are, what do they want us to grow into, and what capabilities they want us to go build, right? So we've expanded the StudioX, not because we thought everybody should have StudioX, but we actually had customers that took our product, the Studio product, and said, "We want to roll this out "to every single user within the enterprise." Because they thought that every person has unique needs and they should be able to build a bot for themselves. Well they came back and told us, well we wanted to do that, but this isn't really quite ready for all of our accountants. This isn't quite ready for all of our business analysts. Can you actually make it simple? All of these people use Excel, can you make it look like Excel? So we took all of that feedback, and that's what we focused on, building StudioX. So we can make sure we meet the needs of the market. And every single pillar of the investment that we've done, has focused around making sure that we're able to meet those requirements around those. Automation is the application, now I'm going to go to that. And that also came from, you know, there's different kinds of, if you look at, take a product like Analytics, right? Or Reporting. Different people within the organization have different kinds of needs. There's people that are like, "Hey I want to create my own reports, "I want to slice and dice, I want to understand the strands, "and I'm going to use it this way." Then there's somebody who says, "Oh, I want to bring more data into that, "and I want to do data joins, "and I really am going, I'm a data junky, "I'm going to build a data model around it." And then there's users that are like, "I just want to use the report, I want somebody else to build them, I just want this report every Monday morning." Those are more executives, they're like, I just want to look at the data, let me tell you my report, and I'm just going to use it, I'm just an end user. And that's what we're trying to do, is from an automation perspective, there's people that have different types of needs. There's going to be people that are true developers, RPA developers that we've targeted with Studio, then there's people that are business analysts that are like, I can do some stuff with it, I'm not going to spend 8 hours a day every day working on it, I may spend two hours, once a week, building something that's relevant for me. And that's what StudioX is targeted to. But then there's a whole lot of other users, that are like, I don't want to build anything myself, but I want to use it, things that are relevant for me. These are people, maybe like contact center agents, that are taking orders from customers. So, let's say, in a typical Fortune 500 company, if you hired a person to take orders today, you'd have to go train the person in at least 10 different applications to be able to take orders, right? You'd have to show them how it works, when a customer calls, if it's a material order take it in this SOP system, if it's a this order that came through an acquired company, take it in that system. That takes a lot of time. What is the call center agent, the order taking person, doing? They're essentially capturing some very basic information from the customer, that are saying, I am this customer, I want this, this, and this product to be shipped at this address, and tell me when you can ship it, and what is the price for that? What we're trying to do with that application, is give that order agent a very simple interface, where they can punch in the three things simply, and get the results back that the customer cares about, without having to learn how to jump hoops across these 15 different applications to be able to enter that. Because robots can learn those applications, and take what you have put into that interface, and do the work of putting in, cascading that data, and extracting information from those systems. That is the concept behind, automation is the application. >> Sounds like a killer app. >> Yeah, it is. Yeah I like to say it that way as well. >> I want to ask you about cloud. Cause you guys announced the ability, and I did it, I went and downloaded, not downloaded but I signed up, it took seconds. I mean it was simple, and now I got to invite other people, and start, you know, digging in. But we saw this with CRM. Email, Service Management, HR, now even analytic databases, all got SaSified. >> Param: Right. >> I'm curious as to why, not really it took so long, why didn't you start with SaS? Is there something unique about RPA? Is it cause Daniel was a Microsoft guy, pre-Azure? And will this industry eventually go all SaS? Or will it be hybrid, or? >> Param: I think it's like any other workload in the enterprise, there's some customers that are going to want to remain on premise, because that's who they are, that's what they do. >> Governance, compliance, all those, security, right. >> Governance, compliance, you know, we're special. And then there's other customers that are like, you know, we're going where the rest of the world is going. We're going to let this data center work in a cloud, that we believe is secure, has the governance and compliance. So I think we're meeting customers where they are. We're going to continue to support on premise deployments. We will continue to support deployments for customers that want to deploy on private cloud infrastructure. And we'll keep deploying customers that want to use in SaS. Your question was why did it take so long for this to go to that? I think, my theory behind that, is that a lot of the automations that are happening, are touching systems that are only available on premise. Some of these are affecting systems that haven't moved to the cloud, So companies are saying, well I've got to put my robot on premise, because it's got to touch this application that's on premise. I might as well deploy the whole infrastructure on premise. And what we've done with the cloud service, is we've given you the options. You will definitely run their infrastructure in the cloud. That manages and governs the robots. And you can decide to run the robots on premise, or you can decide to run the robots in the cloud, as VMs and machines in any data center. >> So if I can put it in my words, the data lives on prem. >> Param: Yes. >> So you're bringing the automation to where the data lives, independent of the cloud, so that's really why. So the latency issues, we mentioned the other ones, compliance, governance, you know, security, etc. But there's going to be performance implications as well. If you've got a lot of data on-prem, you want to be on prem. >> Again, yeah, it just depends upon, if you've got a lot of data on-prem, and more importantly the business applications that you're using, let's say you're trying to automate a process in a mainframe application that hasn't moved through any cloud yet, that's sitting on a server in the on-premise environment. And the robot can only access it if it's deployed on a machine that sits within the same network, then you've got to put the robot in there, that can access it there as well. >> Dave: It makes sense, it's not a standalone application. It's automating other apps, and touching others, it's got dependencies all over the place. >> Exactly, it's sort of like the lowest common denominator. If every application your touching is the cloud, there's no reason you want to put the robot on premise. You would want to put the robot in the cloud as well. But the reality is that people have moved some applications to the cloud, but not every application to the cloud, that the business process is touching. >> Dave: Well a lot of ERP, a lot of financials, I would imagine the folks I talked to last night were insurance industry, so. >> Yeah, those industries have a lot of homegrown systems, built a long time ago. >> Rebecca: So there's been a lot of exciting product announcements at this conference, but I want you to talk about what's coming up ahead. What are some of the things that you're working on, that are most exciting to you, as these bots become smarter, more durable, and more able to take on complex tasks? What are we going to be talking about at next year's UiPath? >> Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question, and I think you'll hear talk next year about a few things. One is, we started a lot of initiative this year, and we're going to release the version one of many of our products this time. We're going to keep focusing on making sure we make them enterprise ready, we take the feedback across the customers, and make it ready for what they're able to do. I think another key initiative that we're focused on, is contact center. We see mass adoption of our technology in contact centers, and today what we do, is we give our customers the components that we will deploy in call centers, but we don't actually have a finished solution for call centers. Call centers have a lot of automation opportunities, we'll build a more finished solution for contact centers. The other stuff that you'll hear us do more next year, is the concept of applications. We have some ways to build applications today, but I think we're going to grow that ability to create applications, compose applications, very quickly, and you'll hear us do a lot more next year there. >> Rebecca: Well we'll look forward to hearing about it. >> Param: I really look forward to telling you next year about it. >> Dave: Thanks for coming on. >> Rebecca: Thank you so much, Param >> Thank you so much. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Dave Vellante, that wraps up day one of UiPath Forward, come back tomorrow for more. >> [Electronic Music]

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California It is a cute conversation. >> Welcome to this Cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. At the Cube Studios. I'm John for a host of the Cube. We're here for a company profile coming called De Monte. Here. Tom Barton, CEO. As V M World approaches a lot of stuff is going to be talked about kubernetes applications. Micro Service's will be the top conversation, Certainly in the underlying infrastructure to power that Tom Barton is the CEO of De Monte, which is in that business. Tom, we've known each other for a few years. You've done a lot of great successful ventures. Thehe Monty's new one. Your got on your plate here right now? >> Yes, sir. And I'm happy to be here, so I've been with the Amante GIs for about a year or so. Um, I found out about the company through a head turner. Andi, I have to admit I had not heard of the company before. Um, but I was a huge believer in containers and kubernetes. So has already sold on that. And so I had a friend of mine. His name is Brian Walden. He had done some massive kubernetes cloud based deployments for us at Planet Labs, a company that I was out for a little over three years. So I had him do technical due diligence. Brian was also the number three guy, a core OS, um, and so deeply steeped in all of the core technologies around kubernetes, including things like that CD and other elements of the technology. So he looked at it, came back and gave me two thumbs up. Um, he liked it so much that I then hired him. So he is now our VP of product management. And the the cool thing about the Amanti is essentially were a purpose built solution for running container based workloads in kubernetes on premises and then hooking that in with the cloud. So we believe that's very much gonna be a hybrid cloud world where for the major corporations that we serve Fortune 500 companies like banks like energy and utilities and so forth Ah, lot of their workload will maintain and be maintained on premises. They still want to be cloud compatible. So you need a purpose built platform to sort of manage both environments >> Yeah, we certainly you guys have compelling on radar, but I was really curious to see when you came in and took over at the helm of the CEO. Because your entrepreneurial career really has been unique. You're unique. Executive. Both lost their lands. And as an operator you have an open source and software background. And also you have to come very successful companies and exits there as well as in the hardware side with trackable you took. That company went public. So you got me. It's a unique and open source software, open source and large hardware. Large data center departments at scale, which is essentially the hybrid cloud market right now. So you kind of got the unique. You have seen the view from all the different sides, and I think now more than ever, with Public Cloud certainly being validated. Everyone knows Amazon of your greenfield. You started the cloud, but the reality is hybrid. Cloud is the operating model of the genesis. Next generation of companies drive for the next 20 to 30 years, and this is the biggest conversation. The most important story in tech. You're in the middle of it with a hot start up with a name that probably no one's ever heard of, >> right? We hope to change that. >> Wassily. Why did you join this company? What got your attention? What was the key thing once you dug in there? What was the secret sauce was what Got your attention? Yes. So to >> me again, the market environment. I'm a huge believer that if you look at the history of the last 15 years, we went from an environment that was 0% virtualized too. 95% virtualized with, you know, Vienna based technologies from VM Wear and others. I think that fundamentally, containers in kubernetes are equally as important. They're going to be equally as transformative going forward and how people manage their workloads both on premises and in the clouds. Right? And the fact that all three public cloud providers have anointed kubernetes as the way of the future and the doctor image format and run time as the wave of the future means, you know, good things were gonna happen there. What I thought was unique about the company was for the first time, you know, surprisingly, none of the exit is sick. Senders, um, in companies like Nutanix that have hyper converse solutions. They really didn't have anything that was purpose built for native container support. And so the founders all came from Cisco UCS. They had a lot of familiarity with the underpinnings of hyper converged architectures in the X 86 server landscape and networking, subsistence and storage subsystems. But they wanted to build it using the latest technologies, things like envy and me based Flash. Um, and they wanted to do it with a software stack that was native containers in Kubernetes. And today we support two flavors of that one that's fully open source around upstream kubernetes in another that supports our partner Red hat with open shift. >> I think you're really onto something pretty big here because one of things that day Volonte and Mine's too many men and our team had been looking at is we're calling a cloud to point over the lack of a better word kind of riff on the Web to point out concept. But cloud one daughter was Amazon. Okay, Dev ops agile, Great. Check the box. They move on with life. It's always a great resource, is never gonna stop. But cloud 2.0, is about networking. It's about securities but data. And if you look at all the innovation startups, we'll have one characteristic. They're all playing in this hyper converged hardware meat software stack with data and agility, kind of to make the original Dev ops monocle better. The one daughter which was storage and compute, which were virtualization planes. So So you're seeing that pattern and it's wide ranging at security is data everything else So So that's kind of what we call the Cloud two point game. So if you look at V m World, you look at what's going on the conversations around micro service red. It's an application centric conversation in an infrastructure show. So do you see that same vision? And if so, how do you guys see you enabling the customer at this saying, Hey, you know what? I have all this legacy. I got full scale data centers. I need to go full scale cloud and I need zero and disruption to my developer. Yeah, so >> this is the beauty of containers and kubernetes, which is they know it'll run on the premises they know will run in the cloud, right? Um and it's it is all about micro service is so whether they're trying to adopt them on our database, something like manga TB or Maria de B or Crunchy Post Grey's, whether it's on the operational side to enable sort of more frequent and incremental change, or whether it's on a developer side to take advantage of new ways of developing and delivering APS with C I. C. D. Tools and so forth. It's pretty much what people want to do because it's future proofing your software development effort, right? So there's sort of two streams of demand. One is re factoring legacy applications that are insufficiently kind of granule, arised on, behave and fail in a monolithic way. Um, as well as trying to adopt modern, modern, cloud based native, you know, solutions for things like databases, right? And so that the good news is that customers don't have to re factor everything. There are logical break points in their applications stack where they can say, Okay, maybe I don't have the time and energy and resource is too totally re factor a legacy consumer banking application. But at least I can re factor the data based here and serve up you know container in Kubernetes based service is, as Micro Service's database is, a service to be consumed by. >> They don't need to show the old to bring in the new right. It's used containers in our orchestration, Layla Kubernetes, and still be positioned for whether it's service measures or other things. Floor That piece of the shirt and everything else could run, as is >> right, and there are multiple deployments scenarios. Four containers. You can run containers, bare metal. Most of our customers choose to do that. You can also run containers on top of virtual machines, and you can actually run virtual machines on top of containers. So one of our major media customers actually run Splunk on top of K B M on top of containers. So there's a lot of different deployment scenarios. And really, a lot of the genius of our architecture was to make it easy for people that are coming from traditional virtualized environments to remap system. Resource is from the bm toe to a container at a native level or through Vienna. >> You mentioned the history lesson there around virtualization. How 15 years ago there was no virtualization now, but everything's virtualized we agree with you that containers and compares what is gonna change that game for the next 15 years? But what's it about VM? Where would made them successful was they could add virtualization without requiring code modification, right? And they did it kind of under the covers. And that's a concern Customs have. I have developers out there. They're building stacks. The building code. I got preexisting legacy. They don't really want to change their code, right? Do you guys fit into that narrative? >> We d'oh, right, So every customer makes their own choice about something like that. At the end of the day, I mentioned Splunk. So at the time that we supported this media customer on Splunk, Splunk had not yet provided a container based version for their application. Now they do have that, but at the time they supported K B M, but not native containers and so unmodified Splunk unmodified application. We took them from a batch job that ran for 23 hours down the one hour based on accelerating and on our perfect converged appliance and running unmodified code on unmodified K B m on our gear. Right, So some customers will choose to do that. But there are also other customers, particularly at scale for transaction the intensive applications like databases and messaging and analytics, where they say, You know, we could we could preserve our legacy virtualized infrastructure. But let's try it as a pair a metal container approach. And they they discovered that there's actually some savings from both a business standpoint and a technology tax standpoint or an overhead standpoint. And so, as I mentioned most of our customers, actually really. Deficiencies >> in the match is a great example sticking to the product technology differentiate. What's the big secret sauce describe the product? Why are you winning in accounts? What's the lift in your business right now? You guys were getting some traction from what I'm hearing. Yeah, >> sure. So look at the at the highest level of value Proposition is simplicity. There is no other purpose built, you know, complete hardware software stack that delivers coup bernetti coproduction kubernetes environment up and running in 15 minutes. Right. The X 86 server guys don't really have it. Nutanix doesn't really have it. The software companies that are active in this space don't really have it. So everything that you need that? The hardware platform, the storage infrastructure, the actual distribution of the operating system sent the West, for example. We distribute we actually distributed kubernetes distribution upstream and unmodified. And then, very importantly, in the combinations landscape, you have to have a storage subsystem in a networking subsystem using something called C s I container storage interface in C N I. Container networking interface. So we've got that full stack solution. No one else has that. The second thing is the performance. So we do a certain amount of hardware offload. Um, and I would say, Amazons purchase of Annapurna so Amazon about a company called Annapurna its basis of their nitro technology and its little known. But the reality is more than 50% of all new instances at E. C to our hardware assisted with the technology that they thought were offloaded. Yeah, exactly. So we actually offload storage and network processing via to P C I. D cards that can go into any industry server. Right? So today we ship on until whites, >> your hyper converge containers >> were African verge containers. Yeah, exactly. >> So you're selling a box. We sell a box with software that's the >> with software. But increasingly, our customers are asking us to unbundle it. So not dissimilar from the sort of journey that Nutanix went through. If a customer wants to buy and l will support Del customer wants to buy a Lenovo will support Lenovo and we'll just sell >> it. Or have you unbundled? Yetta, you're on bundling. >> We are actively taking orders for on bundling at the present time in this quarter, we have validated Del and Lenovo as alternate platforms, toothy intel >> and subscription revenue. On that, we >> do not yet. But that's the golden mask >> Titanic struggle with. So, yeah, and then they had to take their medicine. >> They did. But, you know, they had to do that as a public company. We're still a private company, so we can do that outside the limelight of the public >> markets. So, um, I'm expecting that you guys gonna get pretty much, um I won't say picked off, but certainly I think your doors are gonna be knocked on by the big guys. Certainly. Delic Deli and see, for instance, I think it's dirty. And you said yes. You're doing business with del name. See, >> um, we are doing as a channel partner and as an OM partner with them at the present time there, I wouldn't call them a customer. >> How do you look at V M were actually there in the V M, where business impact Gelsinger's on the record. It'll be on the Cube, he said. You know Cu Bernays the dial tone of the Internet, they're investing their doubling down on it. They bought Hep D O for half a billion dollars. They're big and cloud native. We expect to see a V M World tons of cloud Native conversation. Yes, good, bad for you. What's the take? The way >> legitimizes what we're doing right? And so obviously, VM, where is a large and successful company? That kind of, you know, legacy and presence in the data center isn't gonna go anywhere overnight. There's a huge set of tooling an infrastructure that bm where has developed in offers to their customers. But that said, I think they've recognized in their acquisition of Hep Theo is is indicative of the fact that they know that the world's moving this way. I think that at the end of the day, it's gonna be up to the customer right. The customer is going to say, Do I want to run containers inside? Of'em? Do I want to run on bare metal? Um, but importantly, I think because of, you know, the impact of the cloud providers in particular. If you think of the lingua franca of cloud Native, it's gonna be around Dr Image format. It's gonna be around kubernetes. It's not necessarily gonna be around V M, d K and BMX and E s X right. So these are all very good technologies, but I think increasingly, you know, the open standard and open source community >> people kubernetes on switches directly is no. No need, Right. Have anything else there? So I gotta ask you on the customer equation. You mentioned you, you get so you're taking orders. How you guys doing business today? Where you guys winning, given example of of why people while you're winning And then for anyone watching, how would they know if they should be a customer of yours? What's is there like? Is there any smoke signs and signals? Inside the enterprise? They mentioned batch to one hour. That's just music. Just a lot of financial service is used, for instance, you know they have timetables, and whether they're pulling back ups back are doing all the kinds of things. Timing's critical. What's the profile customer? Why would someone call you? What's the situation? The >> profile is heavy duty production requirements to run in both the developer context and an operating contact container in kubernetes based workloads on premises. They're compatible with the cloud right so increasingly are controlled. Plane makes it easy to manage workloads not just on premises but also back and forth to the public cloud. So I would argue that essentially all Fortune 500 companies Global 1000 companies are all wrestling with what's the right way to implement industry standard X 86 based hardware on site that supports containers and kubernetes in his cloud compatible Right? So that that is the number one question then, >> so I can buy a box and or software put it on my data center. Yes, and then have that operate with Amazon? Absolutely. Or Google, >> which is the beauty of the kubernetes standards, right? As long as you are kubernetes certified, which we are, you can develop and run any workload on our gear on the cloud on anyone else that's carbonated certified, etcetera. So you know that there isn't >> given example the workload that would be indicative. >> So Well, I'll cite one customer, Right. So, um, the reason that I feel confident actually saying the name is that they actually sort of went public with us at the recent Gardner conference a week or so ago when the customer is Duke Energy. So very typical trajectory of journey for a customer like this, which is? A couple years ago, they decided that they wanted re factor some legacy applications to make them more resilient to things like hurricanes and weather events and spikes in demand that are associated with that. And so they said, What's the right thing to do? And immediately they pick containers and kubernetes. And then he went out and they looked at five different vendors, and we were the only vendor that got their POC up and running in the required time frame and hit all five use case scenarios that they wanted to do right. So they ended up a re factoring core applications for how they manage power outages using containers and kubernetes, >> a real production were real. Production were developing standout, absolutely in a sandbox, pushing into production, working Absolutely. So you sounds like you guys were positioned to handle any workload. >> We can handle any workload, but I would say that where we shine is things that transaction the intensive because we have the hardware assist in the I o off load for the storage and the networking. You know, the most demanding applications, things like databases, things like analytics, things like messaging, Kafka and so forth are where we're really gonna >> large flow data, absolutely transactional data. >> We have customers that are doing simpler things like C I. C D. Which at the end of the day involves compiling things right and in managing code bases. But so we certainly have customers in less performance intensive applications, but where nobody can really touch us in morning. What I mean is literally sort of 10 to 30 times faster than something that Nutanix could do, for example, is just So >> you're saying you're 30 times faster Nutanix >> absolutely in trans actually intensive applications >> just when you sell a prescription not to dig into this small little bit. But does the customer get the hardware assist on that as well >> it is. To date, we've always bundled everything together. So the customers have automatically got in the heart >> of the finest on the hard on box. Yes. If I buy the software, I got a loaded on a machine. That's right. But that machine Give me the hardware. >> You will not unless you have R two p C I. D. Cards. Right? And so this is how you know we're just in the very early stages of negotiating with companies like Dell to make it easy for them to integrate her to P. C. I. D cards into their server platform. >> So the preferred flagship is the is the device. It's a think if they want the hardware sit, that they still need to software meeting at that intensive. It's right. If they don't need to have 30 times faster than Nutanix, they can just get the software >> right, right. And that will involve RCS. I plug in RCN I plug in our OS distribution are kubernetes distribution, and the control plane that manages kubernetes clusters >> has been great to get the feature on new company, um, give a quick plug for the company. What's your objectives? Were you trying to do. I'll see. Probably hiring. Get some financing, Any news, Any kind of Yeah, we share >> will be. And we will be announcing some news about financing. I'm not prepared to announce that today, but we're in very good shape with respected being funded for our growth. Um, and consequently, so we're now in growth mode. So today we're 55 people. I want to double back over the course of the next 4/4 and increasingly just sort of build out our sales force. Right? We didn't have a big enough sales force in North America. We've gotta establish a beachhead in India. We do have one large commercial banking customer in Europe right now. Um, we also have a large automotive manufacturer in a pack. But, um, you know, the total sales and marketing reach has been too low. And so a huge focus of what I'm doing now is building out our go to market model and, um, sort of 10 Xing the >> standing up, a lot of field going, going to market. How about on the biz, Dev side? I might imagine that you mentioned delicate. Imagine that there's a a large appetite for the hardware offload >> absolution? Absolutely. So something is. Deb boils down to striking partnerships with the cloud providers really on two fronts, both with respect the hardware offload and assist, but also supporting their on premises strategy. So Google, for example, is announced. Antos. This is their approach to supporting, you know, on premises, kubernetes workloads and how they interact with cool cloud. Right. As you can imagine, Microsoft and Amazon also have on premises aspirations and strategies, and we want to support those as well. This goes well beyond something like Amazon Outpost, which is really a narrow use case in point solution for certain markets. So cloud provider partnerships are very important. Exit E six server vendor partnership. They're very important. And then major, I s V. So we've announced some things with red hat. We were at the Red Hat Open summit in Boston a few months ago and announced our open ship project and product. Um, that is now G a. Also working with eyes, he's like Maria de be Mondo di B Splunk and others to >> the solid texting product team. You guys are solid. You feel good on the product. I feel very good about the product. What aboutthe skeptics are out there? Just to put the hard question to use? Man, it's crowded field. How do you gonna compete? What do you chances? How do you like your chances known? That's a very crowded field. You're going to rely on your fastballs, they say. And on the speed, what's the what's What's your thinking? Well, it's unique. >> And so part of the way or approve point that I would cite There is the channel, right? So when you go to the channel and channel is afraid that you're gonna piss off Del or E M. C or Net app or Nutanix or somebody you know, then they're not gonna promote you. But our channel partners air promoting us and talking about companies like Life Boat at the distribution level. Talking about companies like CD W S H. I, um, you know, W W t these these major North American distributors and resellers have basically said, Look, we have to put you in our line car because you're unique. There is no other purpose built >> and why that, like they get more service is around that they wrap service's around it. >> They want to kill the murder where they want to. Wrap service's around it, absolutely, and they want to do migrations from legacy environments towards Micro Service's etcetera. >> Great to have you on share the company update. Just don't get personal. If you don't mind personal perspective. You've been on the hardware side. You've seen the large scale data centers from racquetball and that experience you'll spit on the software side. Open source. What's your take on the industry right now? Because you're seeing, um, I talked a lot of sea cells around the security space and, you know, they all say, Oh, multi clouds a bunch of B s because I'm not going to split my development team between four clouds. I need to have my people building software stacks for my AP eyes, and then I go to the vendors. They support my AP eyes where you can't be a supplier. Now that's on the sea suicide. But the big mega trend is there's software stacks being built inside the premise of the enterprise. Yes, that not mean they had developers before building. You know, Kobol, lapse in the old days, mainframes to client server wraps. But now you're seeing a Renaissance of developers building a stack for the domain specific applications that they need. I think that requires that they have to run on premise hyper scale like environment. What's your take on it >> might take is it's absolutely right. There is more software based innovation going on, so customers are deciding to write their own software in areas where they could differentiate right. They're not gonna do it in areas that they could get commodities solutions from a sass standpoint or from other kinds of on Prem standpoint. But increasingly they are doing software development, but they're all 99% of the time now. They're choosing doctor and containers and kubernetes as the way in which they're going to do that, because it will run either on Prem or in the Cloud. I do think that multi cloud management or a multi multi cloud is not a reality. Are our primary modality that we see our customers chooses tons of on premises? Resource is, that's gonna continue for the foreseeable future one preferred cloud provider, because it's simply too difficult to to do more than one. But at the same time they want an environment that will not allow themselves to be locked into that cloud bender. Right? So they want a potentially experiment with the second public cloud provider, or just make sure that they adhere to standards like kubernetes that are universally shared so that they can't be held hostage. But in practice, people don't. >> Or if they do have a militant side, it might be applications. Like if you're running office 3 65 right, That's Microsoft. It >> could be Yes, exactly. On one >> particular domain specific cloud, but not core cloud. Have a backup use kubernetes as the bridge. Right that you see that. Do you see that? I mean, I would agree with by the way we agreed to you on that. But the question we always ask is, we think you Bernays is gonna be that interoperability layer the way T c p I. P was with an I p Networks where you had this interoperability model. We think that there will be a future state of some point us where I could connect to Google and use that Microsoft and use Amazon. That's right together, but not >> this right. And so nobody's really doing that today, But I believe and we believe that there is, ah, a future world where a vendor neutral vendor, neutral with respect to public cloud providers, can can offer a hybrid cloud control plane that manages and brokers workloads for both production, as well as data protection and disaster recovery across any arbitrary cloud vendor that you want to use. Um, and so it's got to be an independent third party. So you know you're never going to trust Amazon to broker a workload to Google. You're never going to trust Google to broker a workload of Microsoft. So it's not gonna be one of the big three. And if you look at who could it be? It could be VM where pivotal. Now it's getting interesting. Appertaining. Cisco's got an interesting opportunity. Red hats got an interesting opportunity, but there is actually, you know, it's less than the number of companies could be counted on one hand that have the technical capability to develop hybrid cloud abstraction that that spans both on premises and all three. And >> it's super early. Had to peg the inning on this one first inning, obviously first inning really early. >> Yeah, we like our odds, though, because the disruption, the fundamental disruption here is containers and kubernetes and the interest that they're generating and the desire on the part of customers to go to micro service is so a ton of application re factoring in a ton of cloud native application development is going on. And so, you know, with that kind of disruption, you could say >> you're targeting opening application re factoring that needs to run on a cloud operating >> model on premise in public. That's correct. In a sense, dont really brings the cloud to theon premises environment, right? So, for example, we're the only company that has the concept of on premises availability zones. We have synchronous replication where you can have multiple clusters that air synchronously replicated. So if one fails the other one, you have no service disruption or loss of data, even for a state full application, right? So it's cloud like service is that we're bringing on Prem and then providing the links, you know, for both d. R and D P and production workloads to the public Cloud >> block locked Unpack with you guys. You might want to keep track of humaneness. Stateville date. It's a whole nother topic, as stateless data is easy to manage with AP Eyes and Service's wouldn't GET state. That's when it gets interesting. Com Part in the CEO. The new chief executive officer. Demonte Day How long you guys been around before you took over? >> About five years. Four years before me about been on board about a year. >> I'm looking forward to tracking your progress. We'll see ya next week and seven of'em Real Tom Barton, Sea of de Amante Here inside the Cube Hot startup. I'm John Ferrier. >> Thanks for watching.

>> From Cambridge Massachusetts, it's the CUBE, covering MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium 2019. Brought to you by silicon angle media. >> Welcome back to Cambridge Massachusetts everybody you're watching the cube. The leader in live tech coverage. The cubes two day coverage of MIT's CDOIQ. The chief data officer information quality event. Thirteenth year we started here in 2013. I'm Dave Vallante with my co-host Paul Gillin. Veda Bawo. Bowo. Bawo. Sorry Veda Bawo is here. Did I get that right? >> That's close enough. >> The director of data governance at Raymond James and Althea Davis the former chief data officer of ING bank challengers and growth markets. Ladies welcome to the cube thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Hi Vita, talk about your role at Raymond James. Relatively new role for you? >> It is a relatively new role. So I recently left fifth third bank as their managing director of data governance and I've moved on to Raymond James in sunny Florida. And I am now the director of data governance for Raymond James. So it's a global financial services company they do asset wealth management, investment banking, retail banking. So I'm excited, I'm very excited about it. >> So we've been talking all day and actually several years about how the chief data officer role kind of emerged from the back office of the data governance. >> Mmm >> And the information quality and now its come you know front and center. And actually we've seen a full circle because now it's all about data quality again. So Althea as the former CDO right is that a fair assessment that it sort of came out of the ashes of the back room. >> Yeah, I mean its definitely a fair assessment. That's where we got started. That's how we got our budgets that's how we got our teams. However, now we have to serve many masters. We have to deal with all of the privacy, we have to deal with the multiple compliancies. We have to deal with the data operations and we have to deal with all of the new, sexy emerging technologies. So to do AI and data science you need a lot of data. You need data rich. You need it to be knowledge management, you need it to be information management. And it needs to be intelligent. So we need to actually raise the bar on what we do and at the same time get the credibility from our sea sweet peers. >> Well I think we no longer have the. We don't have the luxury of being just a cost center anymore . >> No. >> Right, we have to generate revenue. So it's about data monetization. It's about partnering with our businesses to make sure that we're helping to drive strategy and deliver results for the broader organization. >> So you got to hit the bottom line. >> Yeah. >> Either raise revenue or cut costs >> Yeah absolutely >> You know directly that can be tangibly monetized. >> Exactly keep them out of jail. Right. Save money >> That too. >> Save money, make money. (inaudible laughter) keep them out of jail. >> Like both CDO's you do not study for this career path because it didn't exist a few years ago. So talk about your backgrounds and how you came to come into this role Veda. >> Yeah absolutely so you know you talked about you know data kind of starting in the bowels of the back office. So I am that person right. So I am an accountant by training. So I am the person who is non legally entity controllership by book journal entries I've closed the books. I've done regulatory reporting so I know what it feels like to have to deal with dirty data every single month end, every single quarter end right. And I know the pain of having to cleanse it and having to deal with our business partners and having experienced that gave me the passion to want to do better. Right so I want to influence my partners upstream to do better as well as to take away some of the pain points that my teams experiencing over and over again it really was groundhog day. So that really made me feel passionate about going into the data discipline. Right and so you know the benefit is great it's not an easy journey but yeah out of accounting finance and that kind of back office operational support was boring right. A data evangelist and some passionate were about it. >> Which made sense because you have to have quality. >> Absolutely. >> Consistency. You have to have so called single version of the truth. >> Absolutely because you look regularly there's light for the financial reports to be accurate. All the time. (laughter) >> Exactly >> How about you? >> I came at it from a totally different angle. I was a marketeer so I was a business manager, a marketeer I was working with the big retail brands you know the Nikes and the Levi's strauss's of the world. So I came to it from a value chain perspective from marketing you know from rolling out retail chains across Europe. And I went from there as a line management position and all the pains of the different types of data we needed and then did quite a bit of consulting with some of the big consultancies accenture. And then rolled more into the data migration so dealing with those huge change projects and having teams from all of the world. And knowing the pains what all of the guys didn't want to work on. I got it all on my plate. But it put me in position to be a really solid chief data officer. >> Somebody it was called like data chicks or something like that (laughter) and I snuck in I was like the lone >> Data chicks >> I was like the lone data dude >> You can be a data chick. It's okay no judgement here. >> And so one of the things that one of the CDO's said there. She was a woman obviously. And she said you know I think that and the stat was there was a higher proportion of women as CDO's than there were across tech which is like I don't know fifty seventeen percent. And she's positive that the reason was because it's like a thankless job that nobody wants and so I just wonder as woman CDO your thoughts on that is that true. >> Well first of all we're the newest to the table right so you're the new kid on the block it doesn't matter if you're man or woman you're the new kid on the block so you know the CFO's got the four thousand year history behind him or her. The CIO or CTO they've got the fifty, sixty year up on us. So we're new. So you have to calve out your space and I do think that a lot of women by nature like to take on things big. To do things that other people don't want to do. So I can see how women kind of fell into that. But, at the same time you know data it's an asset and it is the newest asset. And it's definitely misunderstood. So I do think that you know women you know we kind of fell into it but it was actually something that happened good for women because there's a big future in data. >> Well let's just be realistic right. Woman have unique skillset. I may be a little bias but we have a unique skillset. We're able to solve problems creatively. Right there's no one size fits all solution for data. There's no accounting pronouncement that tells me how to handle and manage my data. Right I have to kind of figure it out as I go along and pivot when something doesn't work. I think that's something that is very natural to women. >> Yeah. >> I think that contributes to us kind of taking on these roles. >> Can I just do a little survey here (laughter) We hear that the chief data officer of function is defined differently at different organizations. Now you both are in financial services. You both have a chief data function. Are you doing the same thing? (laughter) >> Absolutely not! (laughter) >> You know this is data by design. I mean I'm getting lucky I've had teams that go the whole gammon right so. From the compliancy side through to the data operations through to all of the like I said the exotics, sexy you know emerging technologies stuff with the data scientists. So I've had the whole thing. I've also had my last position at ING bank I had to you know lead a team of chief data officers across three different continents Australia, Asia and also Eastern and Western Europe. So it's totally different than you know maybe another company that they've only got to chief data officer working on data quality and data governance. >> So again another challenge of being the new kid on the block right. Defining roles and responsibilities. There's no one globally, universally accepted definition of what a chief data officer should do. >> Right >> Right is data science in or out are analytics in or out. Right. >> Security sometimes. >> Security right sometimes privacy is it or out. Do you have operational responsibilities or are you truly just a second line governance function right? There's a mixed bag out there in the industry. I don't know that we have one answer that we know for sure is true. But I do know for sure is that data is not an IT function. >> Well okay. That's really important. >> It's not an IT asset. >> Yeah. >> I want to say that it's not an IT asset. It is an information asset or a data asset which is a different asset than an IT asset or a financial asset or a human asset. >> But and that's the other big change is that fifteen. Ten to fifteen years ago data was assumed to be a liability right. >> Mmm. >> Federal rules set up a civil procedure we got to get rid of the data or you know we're going to get sued. Number one and number two is that data because it's digital you know people say data is the new oil. I always say it's not. It's more important than oil. >> It's like blood. >> Oil you can only use in one use case. Data you can reuse over and over again. >> Reuse, reuse perpetual. It goes on and on and on. And every time you reuse it the value increases. So I would agree with you it is not the new oil. It is much bigger than that and it needs to I mean I know from some of my colleagues in the profession. We talk about borrowing from other more mature disciplines to make data management, information management and knowledge management much more robust and be much more professional. We also need to be more professional about it as the data leaders. >> So when you're a little panel today. One of the things that you guys addressed is what keeps the CDO up at night. >> Yes >> I presume it's data. (laughter) >> No, no, no. >> It's our payers that don't get it. (laughter) >> That's what keeps us up at night. >> Its the sponsors that keep us up at night. (laughter) So what was that discussion like? >> So yeah I mean it was a lively discussion. Um, great attendance at the panel so we appreciate everyone who came out and supported. >> Full house. >> Definitely a full house. Great reviews so far. >> Yep. >> Okay, so the thing that definitely keeps folks up at night and I'm going to start with my standard one which is quality. Right you can have all of the fancy tools, right you can have a million data scientists but if the quality is not good or sufficient. Then you're no where. So quality is fundamentally the thing that the CDO has to always pay attention to. And there's no magic you know pill or magic right potion that's going to make the quality right. It's something that the entire organization has a rally around. And it's not a one thing done right it has to be a sustainable approach to making sure the quality is good enough so that you can actually reap the benefits or derive the value right from your data. >> Absolutely and I would say you know following on from the quality and I consider that trustworthiness of the data. I would say as a chief data officer you're coming to the table. You're coming to the executive table you need to bring it all so you need to be impactful. You need to be absolutely relevant to your peers. You also need to be able to make their teams in a position to act. So it needs to be actionable. And if you don't have all of that combination with the trustworthiness you're dead in the water. So it is a hard act and that's why there is a high attrition for chief data officers. You know it's a hard job. But I think it's very much worthwhile because this particular asset this new asset we haven't been able to even scratch the surface of what it could mean for us a society and for commercial organizations or government organizations. >> To your point it's not a technology problem when Mark Ramsay who was surveying the audience this morning. He said you know why have we had so many failures and the first hand that went up said. It's because of relations with the database. >> And I wanted to say it's not a technology problem. >> It's a hearts, minds and haves >> Absolutely. Absolutely. You couldn't make an impact to your data landscape without changing your technology. >> You said at the outset how important it is for you to show a bottom line impact. >> Right >> What's one project you've worked on or that you've led in your tenure that did that. >> If we're talking about for example I can't say specifics but if we're looking at one of institutions I worked at in an insurance firm and we looked at the customer journey. So we worked with some of the different departments that traditionally did not get access to data for them to be able to be effective at their jobs. But they wanted to do in marketing was create actually new products to make you know increase the wallet from the existing customers other things they wanted to do was for example, when there were problems with the customers instead of customer you know leaving you know the journey they were able to bring them back in by getting access to the data. So we either gave them insight like you know looking back to make sure that things didn't happen wrong the next time or we helped them giving them information so they could develop new products so this is all about going to market. So that's absolutely bottom line. It's not just all cost efficiency and products to begin . >> Yeah pipeline. (laughter) >> And that's really valid but you know. >> Absolutely so I'll give you one example where the data organization partnered with our data scientists. To try to figure out the best location for various branches. For that particular institution. And it was taking right trillions of data points right about current footprint as well as other information about geographic information that was out there publicly available. Taking that and using the analytics to figure out okay where should we have our branches, our ATM's etc... and then conslidating the footprint or expanding where appropriate. So that is bottom line impact for sure. >> I remember in the early part of the two thousands I remember reading a Harvard business review article about gut feel trumps data every time. But that's an example where no way. >> Nope. >> You could never do better with the gut than that example that you just gave. >> Absolutely. >> Veda. I want to ask you a question. I don't know if you've heard Mark Ramsays talk this morning but he sort of. He sort of declared that data governance was over. >> Mmm. >> And as the director of data governance >> Never! >> I wondered if you would disagree with that. >> Never! >> Look. >> Were you surprised? >> It's just like saying that I should stop brushing my teeth. Right I always will have to maintain a certain level of data hygiene. And I don't think that employees and executives and organizations have reached a level of maturity where I can trust them to maintain that level of hygiene independently. And therefore I need a governance function. I need to check to make sure you brush your teeth in the morning and in the evening. Right and I need you to go for your annual exam to make sure you don't have any cavities that weren't detected. Right so I think that there's still a role for governance to play. It will evolve over time for sure. Right as you know the landscape changes but I think there's still a role right for like governance. >> And that wasn't my takeaway part. I think he said that basically enterprise data warehouse fail massive data management fail. The single data model failed so we punted to governance and that's not going to solve the enterprise data problem. >> I think it's a one leg in the stool. It's one leg in the stool. ` >> Yeah I think I would really sum it up as a monolithic data storage approach failed. Like that. And then our attention went to data governance but that's not going to solve it either. Look, data management is about twelve different data capabilties it's a discipline so we give the title data governance but it means multiple things. And I think that if we're more educated and we have more confidence on what we're doing on those different areas. Plus information and knowledge management then we're way ahead of the game. I mean knowledge graphs and semantics. That puts companies you know at the top of that you know corporate inequality gap that we're looking at right now. Where you know companies are you know five and thousand times more valuable then their competition and the gap is just going to get bigger considering if some of those companies at the bottom of the gap are you know just keep on doing the same thing. >> I agree I was just trying to get you worked up. (laughter) >> Well you did. >> It's going to be a different kind of show. >> But that point you're making. Microsoft, Apple, Amazon and Google, Facebook. Top five companies in terms of market cap. And they're all data companies. They surpass all the financial services, all the energy companies, all the manufacturers. >> And Alibaba same thing. >> Oh yeah. >> They're doing the same thing. >> They're coming right up there. With four or five hundred billion. >> They're all doing the knowledge approach. They're doing all of this stuff and that's a much more comprehensive approach to looking at it as a full spectrum and if we keep on in the financial industry or any industry keep on just kind of looking at little bits and pieces. It's not going to work. It's a lot of talk but there's no action. >> We are losing right. I know that Fintechs are right fringing upon are territory. Right if Amazon can provide a credit card or lend you money or extend you credit. They're now functioning as a traditional bank would. If we're not paying attention to them as real competitors. We've lost the battle. >> That's a really important point you're making because it's all digital now. >> Absolutely. >> You used to be you'd never see companies traverse industries and now you see it Apple pay and Amazon and healthcare. >> Yeah. >> And government organizations teaming up with corporations and individuals. Everything is free flowing so that means the knowledge and the data and the information also needs to flow freely but it needs to be managed. >> Now you're into a whole realm of privacy and security. >> And regulations right. Regulations for the non right traditional banks. So we're doing banking transactions. >> Do you think traditional banks will lose control over the payment systems? >> If they don't move with the time they will. If they don't. I mean it's not something that's going to happen tomorrow but you know there is a category of bank called Challenger banks so there's a reason. You know even within their own niche there's a group of banks. >> I mean not even just payments right. Think about cash transactions like if I do money transfer am I going to my traditional bank to do it or am I going to cashapp. >> I think it's interesting particularly in the retail banking business where you know one banking app looks pretty much like other and people don't go to branches anymore and so that brand affinity that used to exist is harder and harder to maintain and I wonder what role does data play in reestablishing that connection. >> Well for me right I get really excited and sometimes annoyed when I can open up my app for my bank and I can see the pie chart of my spending. They're using my data to inform me about my behaviors sometimes a good story, sometimes a bad story. But they're using it to inform me. That's making me more loyal to that particular institution right so I can also link all of my financial accounts in that one institutions app and I can see a full list of all of my credit cards, all of my loans, all of my investments in one stop shopping. That's making me go to their app more often versus the other options that are out there. So I think we can use the data in order to endear the customer source but we have to be smart about it. >> That's the accountant in you. I just refuse to not look. (laughter) >> You can afford to not look. I can't. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for riling us up. >> Alright thank you for watching everybody we'll be right back with our next guest right after this short break. You're watching the cube from MIT in Boston, Cambridge. Right back. (atmospheric music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cue covering Sisqo Live Europe, brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Hi, everybody. Welcome back to Barcelona. This is Cisco Live. I'm Dave a lot with stew Mina, man. And you're watching the Cube. The leader >> in live tech coverage. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise. Dr. Thomas Shearer's here is the chief architect of tle Indus looks onboard and David Cope is back. He's a senior director of marketing development for the Cisco Cloud Platform and Solutions Group. Gentlemen, welcome to the Cube. Thank you. Thanks. So you're very welcome. So tell Indus. Tell us about Delinda. >> So Telindus, we are actually an integrator, a cloud operator, and a tech company. And we're partnering over the years with Cisco, with all the products that they have notably, and lately we are moving also into the public cloud. We have private cloud offering, but we see our first appetite coming up with our customers in the public cloud, which are heavily regulated industries. And there we are working notably with the team off Dave to have an offering there that enables them to move into the clouds. >> So these guys are a customer or a partner? >> Well, you know, what's special about them. They're actually both. So they're a big customer of Cisco offerings, Cloud Center and other offerings. The Cisco Container Platform. But they also use those to provide services to their customers. Expect so there are a great sounding board about what the market needs and how our products are working. >> So Thomas telling has been around since. If I saw right. Nineteen seventy nine. So you know, we weren't talking multi cloud back then, but it is a big discussion point here at the show. You said private public, you're using Cloud Center, maybe explain to us what multi cloud means to you and your customers today. >> I would say most customers that we have a large organizations we manage the IT infrastructure. We're also doing integration projects, but those customers they are normally not really technology companies, you know, they are searching to work with us because we deal with the good part off their IT operations. So at these companies they come from a private infrastructure, they have there these days. They're VMWare installation their private clouds and I think also, it will stay like this for for a good amount of time. So there's no good reason to just go into the cloud because it's fancy or because there is something that you cannot have certainly there is. But that's stable progress that they are following. So what we need is actually to catch the low hanging fruits that exist in a public cloud for our customers. But in such a way that it satisfies their day today IT operations and sometimes it's our IT operations who is doing that since we are managing this. So for us, actually, hyper cloud, to say short, is actually the standard, or multicloud. >> So I wonder we're almost two years into GDP, are one year into the owner's finds. How has GDP are affected? You and your customers and What's it like out there these days? >> GDPR is for me not the main reason for public, private, multicloud installations for us and that involves GDPR is the regulation that we are in, so our customers are notably from the financial sector, and they're very strict on conservative security. rules for good because their main business is they're selling trust. There is not much more business where you trust that much than a bank. They know everything about you, and that's something they cannot sacrifice. Now, in Europe, we have the advantage. Data is that strict regulation which puts kind of standards. And that involves obviously also the GDPR thing. But if I look into that standards, that regulation imposes its very technical, they say. For example, please make sure if you move into the clouds then avoid a lock-in, be confident on what will be your exit cost. What will be your transition cost, and don't get married to anyone. And that's where Dave's team comes into the game because that they provide that solution, actually. >> I mean, that's music to your ears, I would think. I mean, I have to be honest. If I were a public cloud provider, I'd say no, don't do multi cloud. We have one cloud, does it all, But no customer speaks like that. >> You're right. And I think to me what I love about Linda's in the way they use the product is they work in such a highly regulated environment, where policies managing common policies across very different environments becomes critical. So how do I manage access control and security profiles and placement policies all across very different multiplied environments? That's hard, and that's been one of the cornerstones that we've focused on in Cloud Centre. >> Yeah, so look, double click on that. We're talking Teo, a guest earlier, and I was asking them, sort of poking it. There's >> a lot of people who want that business because it's a huge >> business opportunity. It's, um, some big, well established companies. Cisco's coming at it from a position of strength, which course? Network, But I'll ask you the same question. What gives you confidence that Cisco is in the best position for customers? Two urn, right? Tio manage their multi cloud data environment? >> I think it's I think it's a great question. I mean, for my perspective and I love our customers perspective. But if you think about Cisco's heritage around the network and security, I think most people would agree. They're very strong there. It's a very natural extension to have Cisco be a leader and multicloud because after all, it's how do I securely connect very diverse environments together. And now a little further. Now, how do I help customers manage workloads, whether they be existing or new cloud native workloads, So we find it's a very natural extension to our core strength and through both development and acquisition Cisco's got a very, very broad and deep portfolio to do that. >>So your thoughts on that? >> Yes, Cisco is coming from a network in history. But if your now look into the components there is, actually, yeah, the Networking Foundation, there is CUCS, which we have, for example, in our infrastructure, there is hyperflex there are then solutions like CCP that you can run a DevOps organization can combine it with Cloud Center to make it hybrid. And just today I learned a new thing, which is Kubeflow. I just recognized Cisco is the first one that is coming up with a platform as a service enabled Private Cloud. So if you go private Cloud usually talk about running VM's. But now with With With a CCP and it's open source projects Kubeflow which I think will be very interesting to see in conjunction with CCPN I heard that it's going to happen. You're actually Cisco is the first one delivering such a solution to the markets. So it's growth that just have >> a thing for the cnc es eso que >> bernetti slow way Don't have to send a cease and desist letter, right? >> CCP that Francisco Container platform Ryan out sad Some while ago on Prim Cooper. Nettie Stack. Right. >> So, Thomas, you know, with the update on Cloud Center suite now containerized, You got micro services. It's built with communities underneath and using cube flow. I'm guessing that's meaningful to you. There's a lot of things in this announcement that it's like, Okay, it sounds good, but in the real world, you know what? What do you super excited for? The container ization? You know, I would think things like the action orchestrator and the cost Optimizer would have value, but, you know, police tell us yourself >> The CloudCenter was already valuable before, you know, we a did investigation about what kind of cloud brokering and cloud orchestrations solutions exist back in those days when it was called CliQr CloudCenter and me and my colleagues know that CliQr team back then as well as now at Cisco we appreciated that they they became one family now. For me, CloudCenter fulfills certain requirements that I simply have to fulfill for our customer. And it's a mandatory effect that I have to feel for them, like being able to ensure and guarantee portability. Implementing policies, segregation of duties were necessary, things like that. I have to say now that it becomes containerized. That's a lot of ease in managing CloudCenter as a solution by itself, and also you have the flexibility to have it better. Also, migratable. It's an important key point that CloudCloud eyes a non cloud centric product that you can run it on-prem that your orchestration that you don't have to log in on the orchestration there and have it on-prem but now can easily move it on things such a GKE because it's it's a container based solution. But I think also there's a SaaS option available so you can just subscribe to it. So you have full range of flexibilities so that a day to day management work flow engine doesn't become a day to day management thing by itself. >> So I wonder if you could paint a picture for us of your environment around since nineteen seventy nine. So you must have a lot of a lot of stuff, a lot of it that you've developed over the years. But you mentioned that you're starting to look a public clouds. You just mentioned your customer base, largely financial services. So they're highly regulated and maybe a little nervous about the cloud. But so paint a picture of your Maybe not for certain workloads. Paint a picture of your environment tunnel where you want to go from. From an architecture and an infrastructure perspective. >> We have our own what we call private managed cloud. That's a product we call U-flex which is  FlexPod reference architecture that's Cisco was networking NetApp storage. Cisco UCS in conjunction with the ember, as a compute. This we use since many years and as I already have said, the regulated market started opening up towards public cloud. So what does it mean? European Banking Authority. So EBA, who's the umbrella organization on European level. They send out a recommendation. Dear countries, please, your financial institution. If they go into the cloud that have to do ABC. The countries I have put in place those regulations they have put in place those controls and for them, they are mostly now in that let's investigate what its influence in the public they come from their private infrastructure. They are in our infrastructure, which is like private infrastructure virtualized and managed by us, mainly VM based. And now the news things on top that they investigate are things like big data, artificial intelligence and things like that which you mostly don't have in private infrastructure. So in that combination is what we have to provide to our customers but their mostly in and investigative mode. >> and okay. And and Cisco is your policy engine management engine across all those clouds, is that right? >> Yes we are able to manage those workloards with CloudCenter. Sometimes it depends also on the operating model. The customer himself is the one using CloudCenter, you know, so it depends, since we are in integrator, cloud operator and also offer our services in the public cloud. It's always the question about who has to manage what. >> One of the things, if I could just add on that we see people providing our products as a service. We're just talking about Kubernetes. Customers today are starting to move Kubernetes just from being like development now into production. And what we're seeing is that these new Kubernetes based applications have non containerized dependencies reach out to another traditional app, reach out to PaaS, a database. And what we try to do is to say, how do you give your customers the ability to get the new and the old working together? Because it'll be that way for quite some time. And that's a part of sort of the new cloud center capabilities also. >> That's that's a valid reason. So you have those legacy services and you don't want just to You cannot just replace them now. Now let's go all in. Let's be cloud native. So you have always thes interoperability things to handle and yeah, that's true. Actually, you can build quite some migration path using containerization. >> Yeah, I mean, you can't customer can't just over rotate to all the new fun buzz words. They got a business to run. Yeah, so this >> And how do I apply security policies and access control and to this very mixed environment now, common policies and that becomes challenging. >> But it's also part of our business. Yes, there have there, for example, financial institution than not a nineteen company. That's where we come in as a for Vita Toe. It's such an industry daddy, via highly value the partnership with Cisco Heavy Cat build new services together. We had that early adopters program, for example, regarding CCP. So Cisco is bringing a service provider into the loop to build what's just right for the customer for them on their behalf. Yes, you describe that is very challenging, is it's In some cases, it's chaos. But that's the opportunity I heard this morning that you guys are going after pretty hard. >> No, it's right. And you've got one set of desires for developers, but now we move into production. Now I t cops gets involved, the sea so gets involved. And how do we have then well thought out integrations into security and network management? Those air all of the things that we're trying to really focus on. >> Well, anywhere the definite zone. So you you were surrounded by infrastructures code. Is there a fits and club? Guys, Thanks so much for coming to Cuba and telling your story. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Enjoyed. Thank you. Alright, Keep it right there, buddy. Stupid him and Dave. Alon. Today we're live from Cisco Live Barcelona. You watching the cube right back?

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cue covering Sisqo Live Europe, brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Hi, everybody. Welcome back to Barcelona. This is Cisco Live. I'm Dave a lot with stew Mina, man. And you're watching the Cube. The leader in live tech coverage. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise. Dr. Thomas Shearer's here is the chief architect of tle Indus looks onboard and David Cope is back. He's a senior director of marketing development for the Cisco Cloud Platform and Solutions Group. Gentlemen, welcome to the Cube. Thank you. Thanks. So you're very welcome. So Telindus. Tell us about Telindus. >>So Telindus we are actually an integrator, a cloud operator, and a tech company. And, uh, we're partnering over the years with Cisco with all the products that they have notably, we are moving also into the public cloud. We have private cloud offering, but we see a first appetite coming up with our customers in the public cloud, which are heavily regulated industries. And there we are working notably with the team of Dave to have an offering there that enables them to move into the clouds. >> So these guys are a customer or a partner? >> Well, you know what's special about them, they're actually both. So they're a big customer of Cisco offerings, cloud center. and other offerings. The Cisco container platform, but they also use those to provide services to their customers. So they are a great sounding board about what the market needs and how our products are working. So Thomas telling has been around since. If I saw right. Nineteen seventy nine. So you know, we weren't talking multi cloud back then, but it is a big discussion point here at the show. You said private public, You're using Cloud Center, maybe explain to us what multi cloud means to you and your customers today. >> I would say most customers that we have a large organizations >> B >> managed dalati infrastructure. We're also doing integration projects. But those customers down, I'm really not really technology companies, you know, date. There are searching to work process because we deal with the good part off their operations. So at this, cos they come from a private infrastructure, they have there these days. They're bm vary installation there, private clouds and and I think also, it will stay like this for for a good amount of time. So there's no good reason to just go into the cloud because it's fancy because there is something that you cannot have certainly days. But that's it, stable progress that they're following. So what we need is actually tow catch the low hanging fruit that exist in a public cloud for our customers. But in such a way that it satisfies their day today I T operations and sometimes it's our operations. Who is doing that since we are managing this? So for us, actually, hyper cloud, to say short, is actually just end up >> so our mighty close. So I wonder we're almost two years into GDP are one year into the owner's finds. How has GPR affect you and your customers? And Ted? What's it like out there these days? >> Gpr. It's for me. Not the main reason for public private mighty cloud installations for us and that involves GDP are it is the regulation that so our customers are notably from the financial sector, and that's they're very strict on conservative security Woods for good because their main business is they are selling trust. There is not much more business where you trust that much. Then a bank I know everything about you, and that's something they cannot sacrifice now. In Europe, we have the advantage. Data is that strict regulation which puts kind of standards and that involves obviously also the GDP arcing. But if I look into that standards, that regulation imposes its very technical, they say. For example, please make sure if you move into the clouds that avoid a locket, be confident on what will be your exit costs. What will be a transition because and don't get married to anyone. And that's where Dave Steam comes into the game because that they provide that solution. Actually, that's >> music to your ears. I would think. I mean, have to be honest. If I were a public cloud provider, I'd say No, don't do multi cloud. We have one cloud, does it all? But no customer speaks like that. No, >> you're right. And I think to me what I love about Linda's in the way they use the product is they work in such a highly regulated environment, where policies managing common policies across very different environments becomes critical. So how do I manage access control and security profiles and placement policies all across very different multiplied environments. That's hard, and that's been one of the cornerstones that we've focused on in Cloud Centre. >> Yeah, so look, double click on that fucking Teo a guest earlier and I was asking them, sort of poking it. There's a lot of people who want that business because it's a huge business opportunity. It's, um, some big, well established companies. Cisco's coming at it from a position of strength, which is course network. But I'll ask you the same question. What gives you confidence that Cisco is in the best position for customers? Two. Urn, The right tio manage their multi cloud data and environment. >> I think it's I think it's a great question. I mean, for my perspective of action, love our customer's perspective. But if you think about Cisco's heritage around the network and security, I think most people would agree. They're very strong there. It's a very natural extension. Tohave Sisko Be a leader and multi cloud because, after all, it's how doe I securely connect very diverse environments together. And now a little further. Now, how do I help customers manage workloads, whether they be existing or new cloud native workloads, So we find It's a very natural extension to our core strengths and through both development and acquisition system has got a very, very broad and deep portfolio to do that. So your >> thoughts on that? Yeah, Yes, sister is coming from a network in history. But if your now leg look into the components days actually, yeah, Networking foundation s U. C s, which we have, for example, in our infrastructure, this hyper flex there are there solutions like CCP that you can run a deaf ops organization, can combine it with Cloud Center to make it high pret. And just today I learned a new thing, which is cute flow. I just recognized Cisco. It's the first one that is coming up with a platform is a service in Able Private Cloud. So if you go private, Cloud usually talk about running the M's. But now, with with With a CCP and it's Open sauce Project cute flow, which I think Ah, bee, very interesting to see in conjunction with C. C. P. And I heard that it's going to happen. You're actually Cisco is to first one delivering such a solution to the markets. So it's It's gross that just have >> a thing for the cnc es eso >> que bernetti Slow way Don't have to send a cease and desist letter, right? >> Ccp that Francisco Container platform. Ryan out sad. Some while ago on Prim Cooper. Nettie Stack. Right. So, Thomas, you know, we were the update on Cloud Center. Sweet. Now it's containerized. You got micro services. It's built with communities underneath and using cube flow. I'm guessing that's meaningful to you. There's a lot of things in this announcement that it's like, Okay, it sounds good, but in the real world, you know what? What do you super excited for? The container ization? You know, I would think things like the action orchestrator and the cost Optimizer would have value. But, you know, police tell us yourself, >> like Cloud Center was already variable before, you know, be a did investigation about what kind of flout brokering cloud orchestrations solutions exist big in those days when it was called Clicker Cloud Center. And I'm me and my colleagues know that click a team back then as well as now as assist. Greatly appreciated that, David, they became one family now for me, cloud center for face, certain requirements that I simply have to fulfill for our customer. And it's a mandatory effect that I have to feel for them, like being able to ensure and guarantee portability. Implementing policies, segregation of duties were necessary, things like that. I have to say now that it becomes containerized, that's a lot off ease and managing Cloud Center as a solution by itself, and also you have the flexibility to have it better. Also, my credible It's an important key point that Cloud Santa eyes a non cloud centric products that you can run it on. Prem that the orchestration that you don't have to log in on the orchestration there and have it on now can easily move it on such a cheeky because it's it's a container by solution. But I think also there's a sass option available so you can just subscribe to it. So you have full range off flexibilities so that day to day management work for engine doesn't become a day to day management things by itself. >> So I wonder if you could paint a picture for us of your environment. Bronson since nineteen seventy nine so You must have a lot of a lot of stuff A lot of you developed over the years, but you mentioned that you're starting to look a public clouds. You just mentioned your customer base, largely financial services, so they're highly regulated and maybe a little nervous about the cloud. But so paint a picture of your Maybe not for certain workloads. Paint a picture of your environment kind of where you want to go from. From an architecture in an infrastructure >> perspective, we haven't own what we call private. Manage cloud. That's a product recall. You flex witches, flex port reference architecture. That's Cisco that working. Get up storage. Cisco, UCS in conjunction with, we embarrass completely. It's the use since many years and as I already have said, the regulated market started opening up towards public law. So what does it mean? European Banking Authority. So Ebba, who's the umbrella organization on European level days, send out a recommendation. Dear countries, place your financial institution if they go into the cloud that have to do a B C. The country's I have put in place those regulations they have put in place those controls and for them. What They're mostly now in that let's investigate what its influence in the public they come from their private infrastructure. They are in our infrastructure, which is like private infrastructure virtualized and managed by us, mainly v m base. And now the news thing on top that they investigate at things like big data, artificial intelligence and things like that which you mostly don't have a private infrastructure. So in that combination is what we have to provide our customers but their most in and investigative >> okay. And okay. And Cisco is your policy engine management engine across all those clouds that the >> yes, we are able to managed our struggles with cloud centre. Sometimes it depends also on the operating modern. The customer himself is the one using cloud center, you know? So so it depends Since we are in integrate icloud operate and also off our services in the public cloud. It's always the question about who has to manage one and one >> of the things that I just had on that we see people providing our products as a service. We're just talking about Cooper Netease. Customers today are starting to move you, Burnett. He's just from being like development now into production. And what we're seeing is that these new communities based applications have non containerized dependencies reach out to another traditional app, reach out to pass a database. And what we try to do is to say, How do you give your customers the ability to get the new and the old working together? Because it'll be that way for quite some time. And that's a part of sort of the new cloud center capabilities. Also, >> that's that's a valid reason. So you have those legislate services and you don't want just do it. You can't just replace them now. Now >> let's go all >> in. Let's be cloud native. So you have always sees interoperability things to handle. And And, yeah, that's true. Actually, you can quite some my creation path using content or ization. I >> mean, you can't customer cancers over rotate to all the new fun buzz words. They've got a business to run. So what? >> This And how do I apply security policies and access control and to this very mixed environment now common policies and that becomes challenging. >> But that's also part of our business. Yes, there have there, for example, financial institution than not a ninety company. That's where we come in as a provida towards such an industry and daddy. Here I highly value the partnership with Cisco Heavy Cat Build new services together. We had that early adopters program, for example, regarding CCP. So Cisco is bringing a service provider into the loop bill. What's just right for the customer For them? >> Yes, you describe that is very challenging, is it's In some cases, it's chaos. But that's the opportunity I heard this morning that you guys are going after pretty hard, right? Oh, >> it's right. And you've got one set of desires for developers, but now we move into production. Now I t cops gets involved, the sea so gets involved. And how do we have then well thought out integrations into security and network management. Those air, all of the things that we're trying to really focus on. >> Well, where's the definite zone? You were surrounded by infrastructures code and it fits and cloud. Well, guys, thanks so much for coming in Cuba and telling your story. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Enjoyed it. Thank you. Alright, Keep it right there, buddy. Stupid and Dave. Alon. Today we're live from Cisco Live Barcelona. You watching the Cuba >> booth?

>> From the SiliconANGLE media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE! Now, here's your host, Stu Miniman! (bubbly music) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and you're watching theCUBE's Boston area studio. Happy to welcome back to the program Randy Arseneau and Steve Kenniston. Gentlemen. >> We're back! (Stu laughs) >> Absolutely. >> It sees like only minutes ago we were here. >> How can I miss you if you don't go away, oh wow. Gentlemen, thank you so much. We've been talking storage and SDI, which of course, is software defined infrastructure essentials. We're gonna dig inside and Steve, let's start with, you know, sometimes we argue over definitional things, and when you hear software defined, oh it's about software, and especially when you talk about the storage world, it's like wait, there's always been software when we talk about storage. So explain why it's a little bit different now, then what we were doing, you know, even five years ago. >> Sure thing Stu, I think one of the number one things that we run into a lot of that we hear, conversationally, it's storage and it's software. And now we're hearing a lot more about data services, right? The ability to connect data, so forget the physical storage for a second. Connect the data to the people, right? Because as we've been talking all along today, right, this evolutionary platform is being able to provide more people access to more data than they've ever had before in a very secure way, right? Such that, they can actually not only get their jobs done, get 'em done better, get 'em done stronger, get 'em done faster, without all the, as my boss likes to say bouja bouja, (laughs) dealing with having to get at that data. So, if I look at before and after, right? If I look at the before aspect that dealt with, you know, how do I get to my data, right? Or how do I get access to that data if I'm a developer of five years ago, right? It ends up being, and you can attest to this, and please do, right? A conversation between the developer and IT. And then it becomes a myriad of questions back and forth about why do you need it. What do you need it for? How much do you need? Where does it need to live? How fast does it need to be? All of the things that you can get today programmed, right? Into a programmable infrastructure, and just say click and then we provide that to you, right? So before it was all these conversations. Then I gotta buy it, then I gotta procure it, then I gotta secure it, then I gotta know how many LUNs you need, and, how fast it is, and then I gotta provision that out to you, right? And you go okay, and then you say well now you need that. And then the next conversation is well I can't get to it with this application which is on this server which is, now it's another whole, you know, before a developer can start working, it could be a month. Whereas afterwards, it should be, if you have a good programmable infrastructure, I have my application like a Chef or a Puppet or an Ansible, and I push a button and it says, okay I need this particular data set, and it needs to have this set of services. It needs to be this available, it needs to perform this fast, I need to be able to make these types of copies, click go, right? That's kinda where we're at today with what we're hoping the software can do for you. >> Yeah, I always worry, sometimes we try to oversimplify things and we miss, kinda the why, so. One of my favorite jokes we all had is, you know, there is no cloud, it's just a computer somewhere else, because, and it was like no, no, no, wait, there's still gear underneath it. But I missed the: well why does that matter? It's like, oh wait, I've got an order of magnitude more, you know, that I can access for short periods of time, and therefore I can do things that I couldn't do before. And when I think about data it's, you know, you know, big data, you know, massive data, things like no, no, no, no, no, it's not just storing bunch of bits somewhere in case I need them for a regulatory thing, because I've gotta do governance compliance, blah, blah, blah, and everything, but, it's like: Wow! You know, data is, you know, a driver for business, and therefore, you know, data services that allow me to protect and secure and access all those data, is so super important. >> Absolutely, and there's another analog I think is it's, if you think about data services, as we're talking about it right now, it's becoming more of, and the self service metaphor is a very important one I think because, to Steve's earlier point, in the old world, you know, you used to have to go through this complicated workflow and checkpoints and sign-offs and all these procedural, you know, loopholes that you'd have to jump through in order to provision something which, by the time it became available it was probably outdated, right? So, you're constantly behind, right? Now, at the pace of global business and digital business and the importance of data as a driver of global business, you just don't have that luxury anymore, you can't afford to be waiting on the availability of that piece of information so, not only does the immediacy of it improve the actual value of the data, because there's always a temporal element of value for that data, and every second you waste is potentially value that's diminished from data. So not only do we now reduce that kind of latency, we also provide much better reuse, so we talk about this idea of incremental value, right? So you can take the same data element or data construct and now instantaneously repurpose it in multiple ways to extract additional maybe unforeseen value from it, right? So we've gotten away from the concept of these kinda siloed systems that are, you know, this is my production system, this is my OLAP system, my reporting system, we now have this convergence, cross pollination of data, that flows between and among all these systems, which can now be made available via something like a data services platform or a, you know, fill in the blank as a service type platform in the self service mode, where it can be used by any number of different applications and users for any number of different purposes. >> Yeah and what I like about it, what I hear from customers, it used to be, you had to have the budget of a nation or a team of PhDs to try to figure this out. And as you say, with this cross pollination, when I get the data versus when I'm gonna need the data, yes there's the temporal piece, but sometimes it's, I might be doing it for a different purpose, or I'm not sure and things are changing all the time. So that, going back to our initial conversation, that agility and flexibility, being able to access and, you know, tie into that data, and have a range of services is so critically important. >> Well that's a good comment, right? You need to have the budget of a nation in order to do this, and then along came all the cloud providers and said: no you don't, swipe your credit card and start working, right? The tricky part for me, the consumer, of that, great, now I've got the processing power I need, but I need my data to build my particular application. I love, sorta to finish that outright. In order to build the right application, to make sure it works for what I'm gonna do because at some point, right, and I know Dave likes to talk about this a lot, I need to be able to integrate it into my existing systems, and if the performance isn't the same and that's what, I'm gonna probably run into a lot of buggy stuff over here. So I need to be careful with that. What I think is interesting is, and I love to use the analogy, think of the first bank that came up with the application where I could snap a picture of my check, right? I bet the CIO of the competitive company went to his development team the next morning after seeing that commercial and said I want one of those. Do you think, I mean, if you broke, and I don't like always like to use particular verticals, because I think this conversation extends across all applications. But do you, if you had to break down what does one banking customer cost the bank over time, right? And then you said for every day I'm late I lose five customers, and you had to go through that whole lengthy process just to get started for the development team to start working on something like that, with their data, right? I've gotta make sure that the data fits into how does a deposit work, how does it transact, how does it show, when does it show? All those stuff matter to my data, right? I need to put that underneath. But now I can do it, if I can do it programmatically, or provide the infrastructure as a service, hit a button, and I don't have to be a rocket scientist, right, I can just do it for my application, now I'm up and running. >> Well, and flipping it, and looking at it from the providers perspective. So if I'm the consumer of those data services, it's great for me. If I'm the provider of those services it's also very beneficial to me, because now, having that elasticity and that fractional consumption model where I can offer you exactly as much compute or storage or, you know, analytic horsepower you need for your particular use-case and environment for as long as you need it. That gives me a tremendous value proposition that I can then provide to you, so it's really, mutually beneficial on both the supply and demand side, if you think about it. >> Actually, so David Floyer from our team has done lots of research talking about just, real business value that can be driven back when I can like leverage that data. It's like, oh wait, now I have things like Flash that allow me, you know, very fast to make snaps, wait, I have real, this is the actual data, and then I can test on that and then how fast can I get that back into production if need be. There's a lot of things we can do now that just those enablers in the new technologies at scale. >> Well, and I also think it's pretty interesting, we talked earlier about our three patterns, right? Modernize, transform, and the next gen. If you think about the next gen, right? That's, now what I wanna do as a corporation is I wanna bring on new people and I wanna do some data analytics. That data analytics is gonna allow me to learn stuff about my business, and I'm gonna wanna start to do stuff in a new way. I'm gonna wanna start to do stuff in a new way, today. Right? I don't wanna wait and say okay now that I know what I think I wanna do is X, and wait six months for the infrastructure to be there to start programming against it. No, I wanna make real time decisions today, I wanna do real time things today. That's how that evolution starts to happen and it needs to be faster for those people. >> Yeah well one of the promises is, you know, we're at cloud computing, when I need it, it's there, I don't need to worry about what's available. Talk to me about what is scale, and you know, that speed mean to your customers? What kinda architectures do they need to go to to be able to, you know, have that kind of experience no matter where they are? >> Yeah I think you're starting to boil it down into products and while that's good, right new technologies, and new capabilities like Flash and NVME and that sorta thing, that's the raw performance, that's the engine of the car, right? But you start thinking about all the telemetry data that racers collect to then tweak the car, not just the engine, the car, the foils, and that sorta thing, in order to get the maximum amount of speed out of the car, that's really the performance stuff that we're talking about and that's all the instrumentation around the different products and that sorta thing that sit within the portfolio, that enable things like self service, it enables things like, which is speed in its own way, right? And it's data protection, and it's faster RPOs and RTOs, different types of protections sets of services. It's disaster recovery, faster replication, replication to the cloud, lower costs, right, replication into the cloud, maybe not necessarily in on the data center. All of those thins in the portfolio equal speed. Whether speed be raw performance, getting from A to B, or speed of business, which means I can be, I can be doing whatever that thing is that makes me more competitive, quicker than the other guy can do it. >> Yeah, and when you have these services which are much more encapsulated and kind of, you know, to use a very old term, kinda self documenting in a way. If you think about taking a data element or a data structure or some piece of knowledge or information that we're gonna do some kind of processing on, and you load that with as many definitional characteristics as you can, without A: slowing it down, or B: making it too expensive, then you inherently improve the value of that thing, whatever that is, right? So, you know, great, there's a million examples, the picture of the check is a good one, you know, the telemetry coming from delivery trucks, for FedEx or UPS, there's a million examples where the ability to gather data, which would be gathered anyway, and used for some other purpose, but now you layer on some of these additional service characteristics and dimensions to it, and it becomes a whole new entity that now has a whole other set of values that can be expanded upon. So it's really this multiplicative effect that we see, that allows you to take your data, which is your most valuable asset typically, and leverage it across multiple use-cases and in multiple dimensions. >> Yeah, so, Steve, when I think about data services, you know, if I think the old world was rather fixed, and the new world is, you know where are we today, and what's kinda the near future look like? Help us walk through that a little bit. >> Yeah, I think you painted it very well in the beginning, right, we always like to look out front and say this is utopia, this is where we're going. Where are people today? I think there're a lot of technologies out there that, if you're starting to modernize, and I think we're in that modernization trend right now, where a lot of the newer technologies, or even some of the older technologies that you might have installed in your environment, are building out a robust API set. Because the new stuff is all API driven, so if I'm an incumbent and I'm in a data center and I wanna maintain my hold, my footprint, I need to start working with other things. Newer versions of a lot of the incumbent technology is building in restful APIs. Now you're bringing in newer technologies, maybe a Chef or Puppet sitting on top of your infrastructure that has restful APIs. The trick for the infrastructure, for the IT team, is to slowly evolve into that infrastructure developer that we talked about. Now they're learning how to connect those two, right? And as I'm learning how to connect those two, I'm also learning about how to make that data available in other locations, or how to make those applications talk in other locations, that they'll impact my production, right? So where are we today? I think we're slowly starting to understand what these API connectivities are, and if there isn't that connectivity, I think folks are really starting to look at what do I replace that incumbent with to make sure that I'm getting that out of what I'm gonna need for the future, so, I'd say we're 20% down the road, right? But things are moving fast, I mean, as time goes forward it goes faster and faster and faster, and, you know, a year from today we might be at 50%, right? Or 60. >> Yeah, and I would just add to that that the level of integration that exists between the products in the spectrum portfolio is very foundational and very, you know, it's a very intricate structure, right? So, as we evolve products and solutions, you know, we just had an announcement this week of the new Flash platform on the hardware side, so there's, as these things become available, they start to then elevate the value and improve the capabilities of other parts of the portfolio as well. So there's this kind of platform story that you start to be able to tell, and that's really what these, this series has been about and what the follow on sessions will be about drilling into specific solutions at a lower level of detail, is how do we build, you know, the information platform of the future for our clients? >> Yeah, great. And I know there's more coming in the future, but the last thing I wanted to ask you here is we had a while that we were saying well I'm just gonna simplify everything. Public cloud is cheap and easy, you know, hyper converge is gonna boil everything down, and it's just like this one box. Well, and if you look at both of those spaces, they've evolved and now the line I've used I think if I was going to, you know, build compute in Amazon, or go buy a server from pick your favorite OEM of choice, you know, the cloud probably has more options and is more complicated to buy. You know, we'll figure out how the pricing is depending on whether you buy the three years reserved instances or anything like that. But, you know, customers, the paradox in choices is really tough for people as they do so. How do you balance that flexibility, but still try to make it easier, because you know, staffing, you know, I can't have, you know engineers dedicated to, you know, helping trying to figure this out. Oh, the next release comes out in a month, and everything I learned is already old. >> I'd appreciate your input and feedback on that, because what I'm about to say is, is I think easy is relative, right? And it's relative to the person who needs to access the systems or the data or the equipment or that sorta thing right, so, if I may, if I'm someone who's graduated from college and looking to join the IT workforce today or in the next few years, right? To me, simple means, right, a myriad of things, right? And I might've been trained on and educated on, but I'm gonna stay in that world. Why do you continually buy an iPhone? You don't switch over to Android, why? >> They're from different ecosystems, yeah exactly. >> Right, or why does someone go the other way, right? It doesn't matter, you pick one, and that's what you know, and that becomes easy for you, right? And then, as I'm learning, so lets say I pick AWS, right? As I start to continue to learn, and they come out with new things, and that's what I pay attention to, I find these new things that plug in, right? And it's only when vendors come to you and talk about not just hey I've got this new fidget spinner, (chuckles) right, or wiz bang technology, it's, it's I know how to integrate with your platforms to make your life easier. Those are the conversations that actually pick peoples head up and go, oh okay that does make my life easier, right? >> And that's exactly what I was just gonna say, we talked earlier about this whole concept of integrate and automate verus rip and replace. You know, innovate as opposed to institutionalized, so this is exactly that. This is, we as trusted advisors and integrators at a factor are able to go to our clients and say look you have typically a complex environment that has multiple different platforms and stacks that you're working with. You may be able to standardize on a common model or a common model portfolio structure for everything. Not likely though, you're probably gonna continue to have, you know, different pieces of the puzzle. We, it's our job and our sellers job and our partners job to develop an integration strategy and an automation strategy that exploits each of those that are in place to the best of their current ability, and provides a path forward, so to your point, eventually will all things live in the cloud, and will the cloud become, you know, so self aware and so sophisticated that's it's able to provision itself and manage itself and write your apps for you, perhaps. You know, probably not in our lifetimes. So, in the mean time, large organizations and small organizations still have to get from point A to point B. They have to run their business, they can't afford to spend, you know, a king's ransom on IT. But they also have to be secure and reliable and perform, etc. So, we provide a portfolio of solutions that plugs into exiting infrastructure, augments it, maybe replaces it but not necessarily, and helps our clients get between here and there and provides them the headroom to grow into the future as well. >> What's your answer to the simple and easy? >> Yeah, well, first of all right. I think, just on the definitional piece, you know, we'll all be living in the cloud when we've just redefined that means it's, it's hooked up to the internet. (Steve and Randy laughing) It means that it's cloud because everything is. And, here's the challenge of the day, no one can keep up on everything, you know, I've had the pleasure to talk to some of the smartest dang people in this industry, and, >> Thank you. (laughs) even the ones, you know, absolutely, but the people that, you know, are creating new stuff, and you know, whatever it is, they're like, I can't keep up with my own firm. >> How do you have time to learn? >> You know, it's like, they say, you know, the doctor would need, you know, every week would need a thousand hours to read up on everything in their specialty. But, it doesn't mean that we're out of jobs, actually we've got lots of new jobs because we love, we've done some events with MIT, where it's, you know, racing with machines, it's people plus machines, you know, automation does not get rid of your job, what it hopefully gets rid of is the crap you didn't wanna deal with anyway. We saw for a while, we wanted to get rid of undifferentiated heavy lifting, well, let's hope that, you know, as, if you talk to the IT people, it's like the thing that you look at every month and you're like oh God I have to do that, or can't you automate that piece of it? >> And it actually raises a really interesting point, and we haven't touched on it, I don't think, up til this point, but, this is another one of the areas where IBM is uniquely positioned in this discussion, and in this space, to bring to bare a level of sophistication and advanced artificial intelligence, cognitive capability, machine learning, we are, today, delivering the worlds most sophisticated, powerful, capable solutions in that space, and not surprisingly that technology is imbuing everything that we do. So our entire portfolio is interspersed with very sophisticated AI capabilities, analytic capabilities for self adaptation, you know, self learning, self healing. So, it gives us again a competitive advantage I think, as we take these solutions to market that they are imbued with this very sophisticated level of advanced processing. >> Yeah and, the other thing I'd say, I know Steve you brought it up in one of our discussions there, IBM has a lot of partners. I never look at IBM saying we are the only one, we are the be all and end all, we'll have everything, no. The CIs and the MSPs and the CSPs and, you know, software partners and everything like that. You mentioned competitive environment, I think the first time I heard the word cooperative, it was almost always about IBM. Because, yes, IBM probably has a product that does something along those lines, but they know they're not the only ones and they'll continue to partner to make sure that customers get the solutions they need. Alright, any final words you wanna leave on this segment, gentleman? >> I wanna thank you very much for hosting us for this event. >> Indeed. Yeah, thank you for your insight, Stu, we appreciate it, you know it's always important for us to not read our own press clippings too much, it's important to get the external viewpoint and get the outside perspective, so we appreciate your input. >> Well hey, and thank you so much for bringin', both of you, we've worked with you for many years, always appreciate your viewpoints, and look forward to continuing the conversation. Alright, thank you so much as always. Give us any feedback if you have, check out theCUBE.net for all the websites, Randy Arseneau, Steve Kenniston, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching theCUBE. (bubbly music)

>> Voiceover: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to Red Hat Summit in Boston, everybody. This is theCUBE, the worldwide leader in live tech coverage. Luis Uguina is here, he's the Chief Digital Officer at Macquarie Bank, and he's joined by Rajay Rai, who's the head of digital engineering at the bank. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE. Congratulations on the keynote this morning. >> Luis: Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So, really liked the video, actually they show your colleague. Richard Heeley said, "We're digital first." That's your title, digital. Both of your titles. We look at Uber and Amazon, and eBay as the reference model. Most banks, you wouldn't expect that. Where does that come from? >> Luis: Well basically, if you see the banking industry, we have been a full digital business for a long time. So we're not any more moving money, real bank notes >> in Pony Express. >> Rajay: 1s and 0s (laughs). On the Pony Express, but the biggest issue is, with this full digital banking that we have where we're moving 1s and 0s, we have a quite old approach in terms of the culture and how we are doing things. So for us being digital first, means that we have the whole value chain is going to be digital. So from idea to execution we are removing every single thing that is not pure digital. And this starts with the backend systems, and then it's the way we work, the way we empower teams, the way we are doing things now in the bank. >> So, Rajay, we saw today, this morning, one of the videos, using OpenShift to take legacy applications, modernize them. You guys have gone through a similar, not identical, but similar process. Is that correct, and can you describe that. >> Absolutely. I think what's really important to understand is when you start trying to migrate to the cloud, you've got to consider various aspects of application development and packaging your application. So if you have a legacy application, your strategy and your container strategy needs to support... It has to be semi-structured, if you know what I mean. You've got new modern applications that need to be shipped out, and you've got legacy application need to be shipped into a container. And you've got to use the right technology, right strategies, be agnostic to the container. So what you do is take your applications, make them portable across various life cycles and the infrastructures that deploy 'em. >> Rajay, could you explain, what's your relationship with public clouds? How do you think about what applications you put where and it sounds like you've got building in some flexibility into how you're architecting things. >> So what we're doing is... Of course, we decided fundamentally, our objective was no matter what technology we pick, we need to make sure we're cloud agnostic. So you don't want to be picking one cloud provider and putting all your eggs in one basket. You've got to have the flexibility of moving things around, be it hybrid, be it on-prem, be it on the cloud, or picking any provider you want. So having a container technology, provides you the ability to be portable across various cloud environments. >> Luis, what's the conversation like in the corner offices of the bank? And what's your role, input in terms of strategy overall, the impact on the industry, the drivers, just wealth management in general, and other activities of the bank. Maybe you can describe that in strategic terms. >> So the role basically means what I'm doing every single day is basically transforming the way we're doing things. So at the end, we have a clear strategy in terms of how the business needs to behave. But then, how the technology is going to help the business is basically the strategic discussion that we have every single day. So about moving into the cloud, what we're moving into the cloud, if we're moving mission critical applications, or we are just moving other kind of applications, how we empower the teams to be doing things, what is the overall digital strategy that we have in terms of who is going to be doing work, and how we are going to modify, how we're going to upgrade the developer experience. So one of the things that is really important for us, and is key in our digital strategy is, probably one of the best assets that we have in Macquarie that is all the engineers that we have. At the end, when you are delivering a full digital experience to the customer, everything is happening from a engineering point of view. So for us, discussing with the engineers, how is the approach, how we are going to move in different applications, what is going to happen when. So basically is the discussion we have every day. >> And your north star, so to speak, is simple and enriching user experience, and speed is the other thing I heard. >> Luis: Yup, yup, yup. >> And that's really where presumably your team comes in, right? >> Rajay: Absolutely. So you know, the businesses come up with ideas, and it's coming in really fast, so how do you double down on the winners? How do you pick the winners? How do you test and learn? So as an organization, from an engineering perspective, and from a business perspective, what's really important is for an organization to have a platform for execution. And the platform is not something you buy off the shelf. What you need to do is ensure that you have the right technology, people, process, and culture, altogether, to ensure that you have a certain amount of responsible autonomy in picking the technologies and the softwares that you wish to use in order to provide more value to the business. So if you think about software being the most important thing when it comes to creativity today, how do you provide that in the hands of the developers. As Solomon Hykes said this, from Docker, said, the vision of Docker was to provide tools of mass innovation in the hands of a common developer. And that's what we're attempting to do here. Once we do that, it will free up the ability for our organization, or our developers to innovate, and not worry about the complexities that you have with traditional environments. And containers provide you that platform. >> I'm wondering if you can share, organizationally, most companies, it's not like you started with 1000 developers five years ago. What's that migration of engineering talent? How much was retraining? How much was bringing in people that could help you attain this vision? >> Actually, when Luis joined, he set up the Ninjas. What we did was, about 2 1/2 years ago, 3 years ago, we set up the Ninjas, which Luis set up, and that team was, responsibility was to bring value to the business. Not only innovate in isolation, but to have direct... You innovate, and have a direct value to... You know, provide that value. So not have disconnection between an innovation lab and what's really required by the business. So we did that first, brought in the talent, we used... It was a lot of learning curves, so we brought in functional programming, we introduced distributed technologies like Cassandra, Solar, and Spark. We're a huge supporter of open source. At Macquarie Bank, in BFS, Banking and Financial Services, we have lots of meetups. So that way, what happened is, we started supporting the community as such. We host a lot of these meetups. We encourage people to come, and learn. We do the same in our organization, so we started small, and then started making sure that we could take that across the various other business units. >> Luis, I'm curious, from the banking industry in general, do you see a lot of your peers getting involved in the open source thing? I think back to 10 or 15 years ago, it was like, oh well, IT was... Big banks spent a ton of money on IT, they have expertise they want to do, so sharing was a lot of times tough, even though usually, there was behind the scenes, some peers talking, but what do you see happening in the banking industry with IT? >> So what I think is, a lot of things are happening right now and they are changing really, really fast. So obviously, 10 years ago, speaking about the open source, basically with this old days mindset were, I'm not going to put in my system something that I haven't developed, or something that is not from a well-known company that is going to be helping us, just in something happen. But I think the new culture that we have in the banking industry where you need to be faster, and you need to be able to deliver faster services, at higher speed. The only way you can do that is by using open source, and by sharing what you are doing with others. So we have a lot of meetups at Macquarie where we are sharing what we are doing with other banks, and we are happy to be sharing what we are doing, and we're happy just to be understanding what's happening in the market. So what I think is, if we want to be ahead of the pack, the only way is by having a completely different approach in the banking industry. We cannot maintain the old days approach and trying to be the number one in that space. >> Your data strategy has to fit into this. Both of you have digital in your title. That means both of you have essentially, de facto data in your title. What is the relationship to... Do you have a Chief Data Officer, or are you it by de facto standard? >> Luis: We have, yup. >> And what is your data strategy? How is that evolving? >> I think what's happening today in the world is... It's important to understand that data analytics is moving from downstream to upstream. So the technologies you have need to evolve as well. What we believe in is, you need to have two forms of strategies. One is a cold strategy, one is for your hot data strategy. So you have a strategy where you have solutions like Hadoop, and then you have solutions like Cassandra, that's sitting on the edge, closer to the customers, enabling you to have that always-on architecture follow you. If you have to support follow you anywhere applications, you need to have data on the edge, persistent there, cached there, in a distributed manner, and it can provide the data at high speed. So it's all about fast data, which is a combination of streaming data which doesn't fit in memory anymore, having to access large amount of data that's in batch, running small batches on the edge, and combining them and providing the power that you need. So you need hot and cold to come together to provide that power that you need today. >> And are you bringing analytics and transaction workloads together. What role does application development play in terms of being able to speed that up? >> So we use a unique way of doing this, actually. What we've done is, firstly we've got a small set of team that is focused on this, focused on bringing the data alive. So, we call it the smart data store. We're using distributed technologies like Cassandra, we use Spark, and we use Solar. So when you have a conversation, if somebody's calling up a bank, they call a bank because they have a reason to call and ask a question. And for example, you spent your money in a fuel station somewhere, and you've forgotten where, in London for example, you could say, how much did I spend in fuel in London? So that's how a brain thinks, so having that capability is important. So we use full text search, we use a lot of predictive analytics, machine learning, to tag the transactions that we get. So we're doing a lot at the edge. That entire strategy is essentially called Hybrid Transactional/Analytical Processing. I think Gartner calls that HTAP and it's Trans-analytics when it comes to Forrester. So that's a strategy we use in our data at the moment. >> Excellent. So what's next for you guys on the horizon? Again, back to strategy, so you've sort of laid out this vision of simplification and speed, you're working toward that, I think you said 50 applications that you've migrated- >> Luis: Yup, yup. We've migrated already. >> More of that, presumably. What's the next big hurdle? >> So for us, once we have the platform, we now have the basic building blocks that will allow us to do the next jump into the future. So for us, right now, we are working this with all those, that enrichment that Rajay has been speaking about. So we have really good knowledge about what's happening in the bank, and what's happening in the customer's life. The next step, what is going to be a game changer again for the financial industry, we think, is starting to understand the behavior of the customer. And speaking about the behavior of the customer means that as a customer, we deliver one platform, and we deliver quite same capabilities to every single customer. But how the bank is going to behave with every single customer is going to be different. And the system needs to be able to learn from the customer behavior. One example is, a couple of years ago, we send push alerts every time that you are using your card. And what happened is every single morning, when I buy my coffee, I receive the push alert that says, "Hey, you have spent $3.50 on your coffee". What I'm doing is just I'm just swiping my alert. But Rajay is probably doing something different. So what the banks are able to say here is, hey Luis, you're not really interested in this push alert. So the system should be saying, Luis, from now on I'm going to remove this alert from your push alert system. And just in case something strange happen like instead of $3.50, $35, or two transactions in the same second, you're not going to receive that. So the system should be able to learn from my own behavior, and should be able to deliver a completely different experience to every single customer. Right now, we are building the system, and we have the basic building blocks. We're not yet there, but probably will be in six, seven months, there. And where things are, we're going to deliver a completely transformational experience to the customer. >> Great. Alright, gentlemen, we got to leave it there. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. Congratulations on the initiative, really great stuff. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you, thank you. >> Keep it right there, everybody. We'll be back with our next guest. This is theCUBE, we're live from Red Hat Summit in Boston. Right back. (digital music)