>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCube getting towards the end of two days live wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019 in Barcelona. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for this week has been Corey Quinn and happy to have on one of our hosts for this week from the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, Dee Kumar, the Vice President of Marketing, also helps with developer relations. Dee, welcome back to the program. >> Thanks for having me. >> And thank you for having us. We've been having a great time this week, a lot of buzz, a lot of people and obviously always a lot of enthusiasm at the show here. Thanks so much. Alright, so your team has been super busy. I've talked with a lot of them leading up to the show. >> That's right. >> Anybody that knows any show of this kind of magnitude know we're usually pretty exhausted before we get on planes and change all the time zones. So, you know, thank you for holding strong. Give us a little bit about, you know, when we talk marketing, you have a big annual report that came out recently from 2018. Give us some of the highlights of some of the things you've been seeing. >> Yeah, sure. Like you mentioned, you're seeing all the excitement and buzz here so this is our largest open-source developer conference, when compared to the last year we did in Copenhagen. So we have close to 8,000 attendees so we're really excited about that. And you're absolutely right, with that comes, we're so exhausted, but we really appreciate. I think the reason the conference has been so successful is primarily just because of the community engagement, which I highlight in the annual report. So it's a combination of our community, which is the developers, the contributors, also our end users, and the third significant portion of our ecosystem is our members. So we recently just announced that CNCF has crossed over 400 members, our end user community is growing, I think Sheryl mentioned this morning in the keynote, we have about 81 end users and this is phenomenal because end of the day, end users are companies who are not commercializing Cloud Native, but essentially they're using these products or technologies internally, so they are essentially the guinea pig of Cloud Native technologies and it's really important to learn from them. >> Well Dee, and actually it's interesting, you know, celebrating the five years of Kubernetes here, I happened to talk to a couple of the OG's of the community, Joe Beta, Tim Hawkin and Gabe Monroy. And I made a comment to Joe, and I'm like, "Well Google started it, but they brought in the Ecosync and pulled in a lot of other vendors too, it's people. And Gabe said, he's like "yeah, I started Deis and I was one of the people >> Absolutely. >> that joined in." So, we said this community is, it's people more than it's just the collection of the logos on the slides. >> Absolutely, I completely agree. And the other thing I also want to point out is a neutral home, like CNCF, it definitely increases contributions. And the reason I say that is, having a neutral home helps the community in terms of engaging and what is really interesting again, going back to the annual report is Google had a leadership role and most of the contributors were from Google, and now with having a neutral home, I think Google has done a phenomenal job to make sure that the contributors are not just limited to Google. And we're seeing all the other companies participating. We're also seeing a new little graph of independent contributors, who are essentially not associated with any companies and they've been again, very active with their comments or their engagement with overall, in terms of, not just limiting to Kubernetes, but all the other CNCF projects. >> So, this is sort of a situation of being a victim of your own success to some extent, but I've mentioned a couple of times today with various other guests, that this could almost be called a conference about Kubernetes and friends, where it feels like that single project casts an awfully long shadow, when you talk to someone who's vaguely familiar with the CNCF, it's "Oh you mean the Kubernetes people?" "Cool, we're on the same page." How do you, I guess from a marketing perspective begin to move out from under that shadow and become something that is more than a single project foundation? >> Yeah, that's a great question, and the way we are doing that is, I think, Kubernetes has become an economic powerhouse essentially, and what it has done is, it's allowed for other start-ups and other companies to come in and start creating new projects and technologies built around Kubernetes, so essentially, now, you're no longer talking about one single project. It's no longer limited to containers or orchestration, or just micro-services, which was the conversation 3 years ago at KubeCon, and today, what you will see is, it's about talking about the ecosystem. So, the way, from a marketing perspective, and it's actually the reality as well, is Kubernetes has now led to other growing projects, it's actually helped other developers come onboard, so now we are seeing a lot more co-ord, a lot more contributions, and now, CNCF has actually become a home to 35+ projects. So when it was founded, we had about 4 projects, and now it's just grown significantly and I think Kubernetes was the anchor tannin, but now we're just talking about the ecosystem as a whole. >> Dee, I'm wondering if it might be too early for this, but do you have a way of measuring success if I'm someone that has rolled out Kubernetes and some of the associated projects? When I talked to the early Kubernetes people, it's like, Kubernetes itself is just an enabler, and it's what we can do with it and all the pieces that go with it, so I don't know that there's spectrums of how are we doing on digital transformation, and it's a little early to say that there's a trillion dollars of benefit from this environm... but, do you have any measure today, or thoughts as to how we can measure the success of everything that comes out of the... >> Yeah, so I think there was Redmont, they published a report last year and it looks like they're in the process of updating, but it is just phenomenal to see, just based on their report, over 50% of fortune 100 companies have started to use Kubernetes in production, and then I would say, more than, I think, to be accurate, 71% of fortune 100 companies are using containers, so I think, right there is a big step forward. Also, if you look at it last year, Kubernetes was the first project to graduate, so one of the ways we also measure, in terms of the success of these projects, is the status that we have within CNCF, and that is completely community driven, so we have a project that's very early stage, it comes in as a sandbox, and then just based on the community growth, it moves onto the next stage, which is incubating, and then, it takes a big deal to graduate, and to actually go to graduation, so we often refer to those stages of the projects to Jeffery Moore, in terms of crossing the chasm. We've talked about that a lot. And again, to answer your question, in terms of how exactly you measure success is just not limited to Kubernetes. We had, this year, a few other projects graduates, we have 6 projects that have graduated within CNCF. >> How do you envision this unfolding in the next 5 years, where you continue to accept projects into the foundation? At some point, you wind up with what will only be described as a sarcastic number of logos on a slide for all of the included projects. How do you effectively get there without having the Cheesecake Factory menu problem of... the short answer is just 'yes', rather than being able to list them off coz no one can hold it all in their head anymore? >> Great question, we're still working on it. We do have a trail map that is a representation of 'where do I get started?', so it's definitely not prescriptive, but it kind of talks about the 10 steps, and it not only talks about it from a technology perspective, but it also talks about processes and people, so we do cover the DevOp, CICD cycle or pipeline. The other thing I would say is, again, we are trying to find other creative ways to move past the logos and landscape, and you're absolutely right, it's now becoming a challenge, but, you know, our members with 400+ members within CNCF. The other way to actually look at it is, back to my earlier point on ecosystems. So one of the areas that we are looking at is, 'okay, now, what next after orchestration?', which is all about Kubernetes is, now I think there's a lot of talks around security, so we're going to be looking at use cases, and also Cloud Native storage is becoming another big theme, so I would say we now have to start thinking more about solutions, solution, the terminology has always existed in the enterprise world for a long time, but it's really interesting to see that come alive on the Cloud Native site. So now we are talking about Kubernetes and then a bunch of other projects. And so now, it's like that whole journey from start to finish, what are the things that I need to be looking at and then, I think we are doing our best with CNCF, which is still a part of a playbook that we're looking to write in terms of how these projects work well together, what are some common use cases or challenges that these projects together can solve. >> So, Dee, we're here at the European show, you think back a few years ago it was a public cloud, there was very much adoption in North America, and starting to proliferate throughout the world. Alibaba is doing well in China and everything. CNCF now does 3 shows a year, you do North America, you do Europe and we've got the one coming up in China. We actually did a segment from our studio previewing the OpenStack Summit, and KubeCon show there, so maybe focus a little bit about Europe. Is there anything about this community and this environment that maybe might surprise people from your annual data? >> Yes, so if you look at... we have a tool called DevStart, it's open source, anyone can look at it, it's very simple to use, and based on that, we kind of monitor, what are the other countries that are active or, not just in terms of consuming, but who are actually contributing. So if you look at it, China is number 2, and therefore our strategy is to have a KubeCon in China. And then from a Euro perspective, I think the third leading country in terms of contributions would be Europe, and therefore, we have strategically figured out where do we want to host our KubeCon, and in terms of our overall strategy, we're pretty much anchoring to those 3 regions, which is North America, Europe as well as China. And, the other thing that we are also looking at is, we want to expand our growth in Europe as well, and now we have seen the excitement here at our KubeCon Barcelona, so we are looking to offer some new programs, or, I would say, new event types outside of KubeCon. Kind of you want to look at it as mini KubeCons, and so those would explore more in terms of different cities in Europe, different cities in other emerging markets as well. So that's still in the works. We're really excited to have, I would say 2 new event types that we're exploring, to really get the community to run and drive these events forward as well, outside of their participation in KubeCon because, oftentimes, I hear that a developer would love to be here, but due to other commitments, or, their not able to travel to Europe, so we really want to bring these events local to where they are, so that's essentially a plan for the next 5 years. >> It's fascinating hearing you describe this, because, everything you're saying aligns perfectly with what you'd expect from a typical company looking to wind up, building adoption, building footprints etc., Only, you're a foundation. Your fundamental goal at the end of it is user engagement, of people continuing to participate in the community, it doesn't turn into a 'and now, buy stuff', the only thing you have for sale here that I've noticed is a T-shirt, there's no... Okay, you also have other swag as well, not the important part of the story, I'm curious though, as far as, as you wind up putting all of this together, you have a corporate background yourself, was that a difficult transition to navigate, as far as, getting away from getting people to put money in towards something in the traditional sense, and more towards getting involved in a larger ecosystem and community. >> That was a big transition for me, just having worked on the classic B2B commercial software side, which is my background, and coming in here, I was just blown away with how people are volunteering their time and this is not where they're getting compensated for their time, it's purely based on passion, motivation and, when I've talked to some key community organizers or leaders who have done this for a while, one of the things that has had an impact on me is just the strong core values that the communities exhibit, and I think it's just based on that, the way they take a project and then they form a working group, and then there are special interest groups that get formed, and there is a whole process, actually, under the hood that takes a project from where Kubernetes was a few years ago, and where it is today, and I think it's just amazing to see that it's no longer corporate driven, but it's more how communities have come together, and it's also a great way to be here. Oftentimes... gone are the days where you try to set up a meeting, people look forward to being at KubeCon and this is where we actually get to meet face-to-face, so it's truly becoming a networking event as well, and to build these strong relationships. >> It goes even beyond just users, I mean, calling this a user conference would not... it would be doing it a bit of disservice. You have an expo hall full of companies that are more or less, in some cases, sworn enemies from one another, all coexisting peacefully, I have seen no fist-fights in the 2 days that we've been here, and it's fascinating watching a community effort get corporate decision makers and stakeholders involved in this, and it seems that everyone we've spoken to has been having a good time, everyone has been friendly, there's not that thousand yard stare where people are depressed that you see in so many other events, it's just something I've never experienced before. >> You know, that's a really amazing thing that I'm experiencing as well. And also, when we do these talks, we really make it a point to make sure that it's not a vendor pitch, and I'm not being the cop from CNCF policing everyone, and trying to tell them that, 'hey, you can't have a vendor pitch', but what I'm finding is, even vendors, just did a silverless talk with AWS, and he's a great speaker, and when he and I were working on the content, he in fact was, "you know, you're putting on that hat", and he's like, "I don't want to talk about AWS, I really want to make sure that we talk about the underlying technology, focusing on the projects, and then we can always build on top, the commercial aspect of it, and that's the job for the vendor. So, I think it's really great collaboration to see how even vendors put on the hat of saying, 'I'm not here to represent my products, or my thing', and of course they're here to source leads and stuff, but at the end of the day, the underlying common protocol that's already just established without having explicit guidelines saying, 'this is what you need to be following or doing', it's just like an implicit understanding. Everyone is here to promote the community, to work with the community, and again, I think I really want to emphasize on the point that people are very welcoming to this concept of a neutral home, and that really had helped with this implicit understanding of the communities knowing that it's not about a vendor pitch and you really want to think about a project or a technology and how to really use that project, and what are the use cases. >> It's very clear, that message has resonated well. >> Dee, thank you. We've covered a lot of ground, we want to give you the final word, anything else? We've covered the event, we've covered potential little things and the annual report. Any last words you have for us that you want people to take away? >> Not really, I think, like I said, it's the community that's doing the great work. CNCF has been the enabler to bring these communities together. We're also looking at creating a project journey it terms of how these projects come into CNCF, and how CNCF works with the communities, and how the project kind of goes through different stages. Yeah, so there are a lot of great things to come, and looking forward to it. >> Alright, well, Dee, thank you so much for all of the updates, and a big thank you, actually, to the whole CNCF team for all they've done to put this together. We really appreciate the partnership here. For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. Back to wrap 2 days, live coverage, here at KubeCon, Cloud Native Con 2019, Thanks for watching the Cube. >> Thank you.

(bright music) >> Hi, I'm Peter Burris. Welcome to another CUBE Conversation from our beautiful studios here in Palo Alto, California. As we do with every CUBE Conversation, we come up with a great topic and we find someone who really understands it so they can talk about it. We capture them for you so you can learn something about some of the new trends and changes in the industry, and we're doing that today too. The topic that we're talking about is, how do you do a better job of mapping the costs that are being generated by the cloud. Well that information's coming out of cloud suppliers related to what you're using with the actual business activities that generate the differential capabilities that customers are looking for. That's a tough, tough challenge, and to understand that better, we're talking with J.R. Storment, who's a co-founder of Cloudability. J.R, welcome to the CUBE. >> Thanks Peter, good to be here. >> So let's talk about... First, who are you? >> Yeah, so I'm co-founder of Cloudability, and Cloudability is focused around improving the unit economics of cloud spend, so our customers tend to be those who are spending large amount in AWS or Azure or GCP. And we take their billing data, their utilization data, various meta data about their business and do machine learning and data science on top of it to help them get better visibility into where that spend is going, how their using it, but more importantly to give them some controls around how they want to optimize. And optimize doesn't necessarily mean save money in a cloud world. Cause most companies who are moving into cloud very heavily are doing that for the innovation, for the speed, so they can deliver better data faster. But it's really about fine-tuning the conversation. Say, "Okay, here we want to save money. "Here we want to move faster. "Here we want to focus on quality." And really providing a way for the various groups that aren't normally talking, the finance teams with the engineering teams with the procurement teams, all these groups to come together, and be able to take executive input to say, "Okay, how do we want to operate? "And how do we want to improve those unit economics as we go?" >> Well, I want to start with just a quick comment on this notion of unit economics. Cause when people historically hear the notion of unit economics, they think of increasing scale so the average cost per unit goes down. But I think you're talking about more than that, right? Aren't you really also talking about a mapping of what spend is generating to the business activities that actually generate value and ensuring that you get the differential or the optimized unit economics or unit cost? >> Yeah, so the mapping is actually really interestingly challenging in cloud. It's hard enough in traditional IT. If you look at somebody like AWS, they have 200,000 SKUs, different products you can buy. And they now bill at a second level resolution. So what this means is you've got all these engineers out there using cloud in a very good way to move quickly, innovate, include more features. And they kind of have an unlimited credit card that they can go spend on as quickly as they need. And they never see the statements. They never see the bills. And the other side, you've got finance teams, procurement teams who've sort of lost control of traditionally the power of the PO that they have to rein that in. And they're struggling just to understand what is the spend. And then to the mapping question, how do I allocate these hundreds of millions of charges that I have this month into cost centers and business units, and getting that sorted in a world where engineers are focused on moving fast. They're not tagging things based on cost center typically. So once you get that sort of mapping aspect sorted to the next point you brought is is then bring in the business value. So how do we start to relate that back. There's a concept a lot of you know, IT has been a cost center, and now it's actual driver of value in a world where businesses are increasingly delivering their value through software. So we need to start tying the spending, mapping of the business and then tying that to the value delivered. A great example of this, I was sitting last week with one of the largest cloud spenders in the world. And they're up in, you know, nine figures with their primary vendor. And in the conversation with the executives, we realized that nobody was looking at both side of that equation. You had the finance people who were saying, "Hey, we're tracking the costs, "and we're figuring out what's happening there." And then you have the revenue generators looking at the money coming in, you know the cloud people with that. But there wasn't this centralized view to say, "Alright, we want to have a conversation about what value are we getting out of this spend." And the question that always comes up with that is are we spending the right amount? I don't know. >> Let me build on that, because IT is historically, and this is one of the things that we've been doing over the last few years, IT has historically done things at a project level. Alright, so we had waterfall development. We tried to change that with Agile. We had buy the hardware upfront and then deploy the application on it, cloud changes that. So this project orientation has led to a set of decisions about finance at the moment that the business decides to do it. We've changed the practices that we use at a development level. We've changed the practices that we use at an asset level. Is it now time to change the practices that we use at a finance level? Is that really kind of what's going on here? >> It is, the project analogy is good. Because what we're seeing is they're shifting from a project basis to a product basis, and products that deliver value. Increasingly if you think about the change that's happened with DevOps in the scene and cloud, companies are delivering more of their value through software, and they're not just using IT for internal projects, right. It's actually the driver of business. It's how we interact with airlines and banks and all these things. So that's the shift to say, okay, now we gotten good at DevOps moving fast, and we've gotten good at deploying and building better data stores. Now we need to bring in this new discipline. And the discipline is what the market is calling FinOps, which essentially combining financial operations. You're essentially combining-- >> Applied to a technology world. >> Applied specifically to a cloud world. And it can only really happen in cloud. It can't happen in data centers. Because data centers have fixed spending, right? You have to wait to get resources. Once you make the investment, it's a sum cost. There's months of lead time. Cloud introduced the removal of constraints, which means you can get whatever you want as quickly as you want. And DevOps meant it's all automated. So instead of your collection of 60 servers, you've got thousands that are coming up and down all the time. So what you now have to do is bring in all these groups. Engineers have to think about cost as a new efficiency metric. They have to think about the impact on their business that this code, this confirmation template they just wrote is going to have. And the finance teams have to shift from this mode of "I'm going to report retroactively at a quarterly granularity, "60 days after it happened and block investment" to be "I'm going to partner with these teams. "Report in a real-time fashion. "Give them the visibility and help forecast. "Actually bring them together and make better business decisions about the cloud spend." >> So cloud has allowed development to alter practically, I mean Agile has been around for a long time, pre-dates the cloud, but it became practical and almost demanded as a consequence of what you could do with cloud. So cloud changed development through Agile. It changed infrastructure management through DevOps. Where now you're deploying software infrastructure as code. And what you're saying is the third leg of that stool, cloud is now changing how you do financial management of technology, financial management of IT. And we're calling that FinOps. >> You can't really have FinOps without cloud or without DevOps, and if you have the two together, you ultimately need this new set of, it's a new operating model. The reason this has sort of come to a head of late is if you look at going to the Amazon re:Invent conferences a few years back, it was like well how much is cloud going to be a thing. And okay, cloud's not going to be a thing. When's it going to happen? Now it's about the how and how do we do this better. Cloud is hitting sort of material spend levels now at big organizations. You always see the cloud projections where it's going, I think it's now 360 billion in the next few years. And we're seeing CFOs at public companies look to say, "Okay, it's not my biggest line item yet. "But it's the most variable and fastest growing "cogs expense, so it's actually "starting to affect our margins. "We need a new set of processes to actually manage this." So one of the things that's coming to market is this new group called the FinOps Foundation, which is a non-profit trade association that initially has a few dozen of some of the largest cloud spenders in the world. There's the Spotifys, the Laciens, the Nationwides, the Autodesks. And they've all come together as a set of best practice practitioners to start to clarify this into something that can be scaled out in organizations. So that group is going to be putting out a user conference around this area. There's a new O'Reilly book that's coming out the end of the year that's going to be sort of the treatise and all this stuff pulled together. Because what we found and you know me, as in Cloudability in the last eight years, we bring in technology and platform to show the recommendations of visibility and how to do this, but the real challenge companies run into is they don't have the internal expertise. Their finance teams understand what they need to. The engineers don't. And so they came to us last year saying, "Can you help figure out the processes? "Can you educate us?" And that's really where this FinOps Foundation has grown out of, of bringing together those people to define those processes. >> So the impact of cloud on each of these different groups, the development group, on the infrastructure team, and now on the finance team. The developer groups, some of them resisted it. But generally speaking, it's gone okay. And eventually tooling from a variety of different players came along that made it easy to enact best practices in software development through an Agile mechanism. In the last few years after significant battles within infrastructure teams about whether or not they were going to use software as code. We've seen new products, new tooling that has facilitate the adoption of those practices. What kind of tooling are we going to see introduced that facilitates FinOps, so that finance teams, procurement teams move from a project orientation to a strategic management of a resource orientation? >> I mean I think the first is on the engineering side is seeing cost become a first class citizen of an efficiency metric that they need to look at. So you know in their build processes baked in the CICD, looking to see am I properly sizing my compute request for the workload that it needs. There's some research that just came out showing that, I think it's 80% of the market is not using the best discounting options that cloud providers offer. You hear these horror stories. Cloud's too expensive, we overspend. That's not actually a problem with the cloud provider. That's a problem with the enterprises not using the tools that offer the discounts, the reservances, the infrequent access. >> Caveat emptor. >> Exactly, so I think at the end of the day, the first step in this is getting those checks in place to say, "Are we using the things that help drive the right cost for our needs?" And on the other side of that, the finance teams really changing the way that they are interacting with the technology teams. Becoming partners, becoming advocates in this versus a passive, retroactive reporter down the line. And this enables these sort of micro-optimization discussions that can happen where data center world, we bought it at some cost, it's sitting there, cloud world, we can make decisions today that impact the business tomorrow. >> So let me make sure I got this. So I have a client who I was having a conversation with him. They told me that their Amazon, their AWS bill, is 87 gigabytes monthly. Not some 87 pages. That's 87 gigabytes. So we bring this 87 gigabytes in, and it's a story about what I consume out of Amazon. It's not a story of what my business utilizes to achieve its objectives. So we're now entering into a world where we're trying to introduce that financial visibility into how that spend can be mapped to what the business does. So the finance group can look at a common notion of truth. And the IT group can look at a common notion of truth. Application owners can looks at a common notion of truth. And that's what FinOps is providing. Have I got that right? >> Absolutely, and the 87 gigabytes example is the exact reason why it is FinOps, and not just cloud financial management. You can't have a person with a spreadsheet looking at data and trying to make decisions about it, right? It has to be automated. It's IT finances code. It's got to be baked into the processes. We've seen organizations that have hundreds of millions of individual charges hitting them in a consumption based manner. The other thing that's come in with the FinOps as a core tenet is we're now seeing a decentralization of accountability for that spend. So if you look at the big cloud spenders out there who are maybe spending tens or hundreds of millions a year, some of them have thousands of cloud environments. Gone is the day of we have a centralized group getting to say, "We're going to turn this off, turn this off." We want to give each of those teams the ability to see just their portion of that bill in the right mapped way, as you said, and to be able to take actions on the back of that. So that's changed in the you know, you run it, you maintain it, you understand what's shut down. What has sort of come back to the old centralized model is this notion, and this is where procurement's job has shifted to largely, of we do still want to centralize the rate reduction. So engineers, you go use less, right? Essentially, finance teams, procurement work together with the cloud vendors to get the best possible rates through reserved instances, can be deduced discounts, you know volume discounts, negotiated rates, whatever it is. And they become sort of strategic sourcing. To say you're going to use whatever you're going to use, and you're going to watch that to make sure you're using the right amount with target thresholds. We're going to make sure we get the best rate for it. And that's sort of the two sides of the coin. >> Well, very important, procurement has always been organized on episodic purchases, where the whole point is to bring the price point down. And now we're talking about a continuous service, where you are literally basing your business on capabilities provided by a third party. And that is a very, very, very different relationship. >> It's just in time purchasing. And it's a new supply-chain management process, where you have so many SKU options, and you are making these purchase decisions, sometimes thousands a day, and that impacts everything down the road. >> Excellent. J.R. Storment, co-founder of Cloudability, talking about FinOps and Cloudability's role in helping businesses map their cloud spend to their business activities for better, more optimal views of how they get what they need out of their cloud expenditures. J.R., thank you very much for being on the CUBE. >> Thanks, Peter. >> And once again, I'm Peter Burris. And thanks for listening to this CUBE Conversation. Until next time.

(upbeat electronic music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back a company we've spoken to a few times at events, Paddy Power Betfair. First time guest coming to us from across the pond, Dave Buckley who is the automation engineer with Paddy Power Betfair, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> Alright, so first of all, you've been to a couple summits and we've talked to Paddy Power about OpenStack. Before we get into your specific implementation, tell us about your experience here this week and any compare, contrast to previous years. >> Yeah so I'm very lucky, I got to come to the previous two summits in North America. I guess what I've enjoyed this week, it's kind of a slight tilt towards, it's away from being purely OpenStack, kind of towards this open infrastructure kind of thing, 'cause like I said, especially last year in Boston, Q and NEs was becoming a big thing. Yeah, and kind of, the OpenStack Foundation becoming kind of more, not that it wasn't before, but more community-based and being part of the ecosystem. So, yeah, I think it's been quite interesting seeing that. >> Not to put words in your mouth but, it was even, the last year or two, it's more aware of some of the complimentary things and adding pieces. You know, we had, one of the interviews we did this week was person who's the SIC lead for the Kubernetes stuff, that sits under another Foundation, things like that. Yeah, exactly. It's been quite interesting this week, I guess, sort the Kata Container project, which wasn't something I'd been aware of before Monday morning basically. I remember we were sitting in the keynotes, and they were like, you can have this container-like thing which has all the speed of a container, but it's as secure as a BM. And you're thinking, how, how is that even possible? So I've really enjoyed, I got to go to one of the sessions yesterday, one of the technical introductions on that. >> Yeah, I always love, there's certain things where, okay, this is what I'm going to do with my schedule, and turns into, this got announced, or I didn't know about this, and you knew, blow up my schedule, let me change everything else. Yeah, exactly, I think you always, you can't, you have to be flexible, right? Adaptable, and as the week goes on you just go to what you think is interesting. >> John: So Dave, you and your company have been working with OpenStack for quite a while. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And you obviously run a system that needs to be stable. Right, needs to, you take care of betting and people's money. >> Dave: Exactly. >> So that needs to be solid. But I understand you recently went though an upgrade and have some experiences talking about that? Can you talk a little bit about where you are with your OpenStack implementation and that sort of migration? >> Sure. So, I guess it's about three years ago, it was Betfair at the time, so this was before the merger of the two companies. So Betfair started using OpenStack, and I think it was actually the last time the summit was here, in Vancouver. So a couple of my colleagues who were kind of the technical leads at the time. Steve Armstrong and Steve Perera, they flew out here, to kind of get a feel for OpenStack, what it was, talk to people who'd had experiences with it. I actually think that conference back then was very informative of what the platform today now looks like. So some of the conversations they had there with people like New Age Networks and Arista, which we used for the switching, but conversations they had there kind of ended up being now what we're using in production. I guess over the past couple of years, so the big thing that happened obviously was this merger between Paddy Power and Betfair, following that they had an exercise which they called the single customer platform, which is annoyingly, for a sys-admin guy, kind of like me, they, it's always been abbreviated to SCP, but you have to ignore that. So that was to kind of consolidate and integrate the Paddy Power and Betfair co-bases and put it on a single platform, which was our OpenStack and Nuage platform. So that kind of completed in January this year, so that's live, so basically the Paddy Power sports book has an entirely new website, all running on OpenStack. A lot quicker and more efficient then the previous version. So that's been a real success. And as part of that, I should say that stability is really vital, so kind of in our business. If the site is down we don't make any money, and if it happens during a big sporting event you have a big problem. >> Do you have a metric around that? What a minute or an hour of down time would be? >> So I guess it always depends, so the nature of our traffic is very spikey. So obviously when you have a big, it's on a Saturday in Europe, the football, soccer, maybe I should say, is like a very big deal. >> We have a global audience, football's okay. >> I'll stick with football then. >> We were all watching the royal wedding. >> I don't want to talk about that. The football, if you, we just get peak traffic on that day. And, even within the year, there's a thing called the Grand National, which is a big event in the UK, big horse racing, I guess like the Kentucky Derby. It's kind of when we get our maximum traffic in the year. Yeah, you always need to be prepared for that. So one of the things as you mentioned, we kind of look into upgrade OpenStack from Kilo to Newton. So we've been on Kilo from the start. We're using Red Hat's distribution of OpenStack, so what Red Hat offer is this, they have like every three releases I think it is? They have this long release life-cycle. So that's kind of the reason we're going to Newton, cause we have kind of the, then the support will go to 2021. [Stu] - But if I remember, it's Red Hat the OpenStack Platform 10. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And 13 is going to be queened as their next one that's going to be released. >> Exactly, so I think they just announced that this week, right? So I think at some point in the next year or two we'd be going to queens. >> How do you determine when you make that jump and anything around the upgrade process, you know, good and bad that you could share. >> Dave: Yeah, so I guess going from, we were overdue an upgrade in this case, Kilos, you know, pretty old now. What we're lucky that we can do is because we have Nuage, it's like an external SDM provider, so the entire data plane is controlled by Nuage, and you can kind of plug as many OpenStacks as you like really into Nuage, and you offload all the networking to Nuage. So what's that's allowed us to do is basically we'd have had a lot of trouble if we'd had to do an in place upgrade, so I've actually been to one of the groups this week, quite a lot of people were talking about upgrades and just like all the nightmares it's caused. I know it's getting better as like the releases come out, but what we were able to do is kind of building new, an entirely new OpenStack cloud on the side of, so we've kind of turned it kind of an immutable OpenStack, so your OSB 7 cloud is there, we built this new OSB 10. But they're both circ into the same networking, so the same Nuage SDN. And the way our developers deploy their applications, I guess you want to see this in more detail, we've done presentations at these summits in the past, but kind of in short, every deployment we do immutable deployments as well, so for every deployment we'll create a new subnet within Nuage, and kind of do rolling update of your VMs that are on that new subnet into like a VIP which is kind of where the constant is, so all the traffic's come in to that VIP then you just flip things in and out below it when you do a deployment, so what that basically means is from a developers point of view, when they're migrating from OSB 7 to OSB 10 they'll essentially spin up new networks and new VMs in OSB 10 and that deployment pipeline will kind of just seamlessly, everything else will stay the same because the networking doesn't change. So we don't have to have any downtime on the data plane or the control plane. Which is really beneficial for us 'cause the way, I guess this is I'll just describe the way developers do deployments like we rely heavily on the OpenStack API being available. You pay a cost in that you, so you need extra hardware to do that I guess, but yeah we found it is something that's worked for us. >> John: Anything else with the networking and specifically that you all are running, the load balancing or resiliency that you need to have for your apps? >> Dave: Yeah so one of the things was, so it's kind of another problem there were trying to solve with this whole project, this new OpenStack platform is that historically Betfair, as it was at the time, had always run out of a single data-center. But we had another site, but it was mainly kind of a development environments right in there. So the company thought why don't we just have, we should just have both DCs for resiliency, try and run things in like an active-active configuration. Which is fine for external customer facing applications where we've had an external load balance server that can point traffic between the two DCs. But then the question is what do you do with internal apps? So this is what led us to use Avi Networks, which is kind of a cloud native load balancing technology, so we've been using to provide like GSLB internal laps, so basically we'll load balance traffic between the two data-centers so it gets deployed within your OpenStack environment, has a really neat integration with Nuage, the Nuage SDN layer, and will resolve you to whichever data-center is appropriate at that time. So if you have a full data-center outtage, you should be able to go "Okay, point stuff over there". >> John: So it makes you and the networking team or the IT team into the heroes not the villains, you're usually the people saying "No" or "We can't do that". >> I guess so, I guess so yeah you're probably right. It's cool technology though. I guess that we're very lucky and that we're given the opportunity by the people at the company to experiment with new things, so even though we're about stability but we're also about trying to push things forward in terms of what technology to use. >> Stu: Dave I'm curious how kind of the hybrid or multi-cloud type of environments fit into what you're doing today, give us the update there. >> Dave: Yeah so that's something very in our radar at the moment I guess it's, yeah it's what everybody's doing, looking to how you can have this hybrid cloud model. So I think, going back three years again, at that time, being like an online betting company, it's a highly regulated business and only at that point it was really possible to kind of put some of this stuff into the public cloud, it seems like things have come a long way, so it's something we're looking at at the moment, we're evaluating different solutions, different vendors like the Googles, AWSs, and seeing or even like some OpenStack public clouds and seeing maybe how could we migrate some workloads out into the public cloud, how do we want to that, to give us more resiliency, and also as I was saying about our spiky traffic, it just makes a lot of sense to be able to say burst out into whichever public cloud vendor on a Saturday when the football's on to deal with that peak load. So it's something we're very much looking at at the moment. But yeah no formal decisions as of yet. Unless they've done something while I've been away. >> John: With containers here at the show, lots of different threads right? Containers, Edge, the OpenDev track, things like that. Anything else, we've talked about Kata, anything else that came up that was interesting here that you just watch Kubernetes and container track as well? >> Dave: So I guess in terms of containers it's, sitting in the Keynotes on Monday you would, if you weren't watching if you were just listening, you probably wouldn't know you were at an OpenStack Summit right since there's as much Kubernetes container stuff as there is OpenStack. It's interesting so we've kind of been doing... Again, similar to the public cloud conversation, it's something that's very relevant to us at the moment, we've done kind of a few proof-of-concept ideas, evaluating different solutions, so we have like running a Cube cluster ourself, obviously we have a strong relationship with Red Hat that we've kind of explored to using OpenShift maybe, and then come the networking layer you can integrate with Nuage which would be really cool for us so it'll allow us to do kind of the all the networking, access control mechanisms as we do for our virtual machines. And again this is also something in the whole public cloud conversation is well if wanted to containers in the public cloud as well like you have all the different offerings, would we want to run our own, in like an AWS or something? Or maybe go to someone like Google where you have that supported self-service model I suppose. But yeah at the moment it's kind of at those stages so I think Steve did a presentation on the Kubernetes stuff like a PCO we done at the last Summit. But yeah still at the moment still want to make some firm decisions about which direction we're going to go but a lot of the developers a very keen for this and obviously for guys like us we all know the value of it so I think at the moment because we had that focus on stability we should now have a period of time where we're able to kind of look at all this stuff a bit more, hopefully get some container solutions into production which would be awesome. >> Stu: Dave Buckley we really appreciate you giving us the update, love to be able to do some of those longitudinal case studies as to where you've been where you're going, what you're thinking about. Be sure to check out thecube.net, you can actually search for Patty Power Betfair, see some of those previous interviews from Dave's peers. Loads more interviews there as well as all the shows we're going to be at in the future where hope you come by and say "Hi". For John Troyer I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching theCUBE. >> (electro-dance music) >> (soft piano)

>> (Narrator) Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's The Cube, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its Ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer and you're watching The Cube, worldwide leader in tech coverage, and this is OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Happy to welcome to the program, first-time guest Melvin Hillsman, who's the governance board member of OpenLab, which we got to hear about in the keynote on Monday. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> Alright, so Melvin, we were given, start us off with a little bit about your background, what brought you to the OpenStack community, and we'll go from there. >> Sure, yeah, so my background is in Linux system administration and my getting involved in OpenStack was more or less seeing the writing on the wall as it relates to virtualization and wanting to get an early start in understanding how things would pan out over the course of some years. So I probably started OpenStack maybe three or four so years ago. I was probably later to the party than I wanted to be, but through that process, started working at Rackspace first and that's how I really got more involved into OpenStack in particular. >> Yeah, you made a comment, though. The writing on the wall for virtualization. Explained that for a sec. >> So for me, I was at a shared hosting company and we weren't virtualizin' anything. We were using traditional servers, dedicated servers, installing hundreds of customers on those servers. And so, at one point, what we started doing was we would take a dedicated server, we would create a virtual machine on it, but we would use most of the resources of that dedicated server, and so what allowed that shared hosting was to tear stuff down and recreate it, but it was very manual process and so, of course, the infrastructure service and orchestration around that OpenStack was becoming the de facto standard and way of doing it, and so I didn't want to try to learn manually, or fix something up internally, I wanted to go where OpenStack was being highly developed a lot and people working on it in their day to day jobs, which is why I went to Rackspace. >> Okay, one of the things we look at, this is a community here, so it takes people from lots of different backgrounds, and some of them do it on their spare time, some of them are paid by larger companies to participate, so to tell us about OpenLab, itself, and how your company participates there. >> Sure, so I started, well I'm at Huawei now, but I was at Rackspace and that's kind of how I got more involved in the community and there I started working on testing things above the OpenStack ecosystem, so things that people want to build on top of OpenStack and during that process Huawei reached out to me and was like hey you know you're doing a great job here, and I was like yeah I would love to come and explore more of how we can increase this activity in the community at large. And so Oakland Lab was essentially born out of that, which the OpenStack community, they deliver the OpenStack API's, and they kind of stop there, you know. Everything above that is, you do that on your own, more or less, and so also, as a chair of the user committee, again, just being more concerned about the people who are using stuff, OpenLab was able, was available to facilitate me having access to hardware and access to people who are using things outside OverStack in use cases, et cetera, where we want to test out more integrated tools working with OpenStack and different versions of OpenStack. And so that's essentially what OpenLab is-- >> So in OpenLab, projects come together and it's basically, it's an Interop, boy, in the networking world, they've had the Interop plug and plug fest for a long time, but, in essence, projects come together and you integrate them and start, you invite them in and they integrate and start to test them. Starting with, I mean, I see, for this release, Terraform and Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so a lot of people want to to use Kubernetes, right? And as an OpenStack operator you essentially, you don't really want to go and learn all the bits of Kubernetes, necessarily, and so, but you want to use Kubernetes and you want to work seamlessly with OpenStack and you want to use the API's that you're used to using with OpenStack and so we work very heavily on the external cloud provider for OpenStack, enabling Cinder V3 for containers that you're spinning up in Kubernetes, so that they have seamless integration, you don't have to try to attach your volumes, they are automatically attached. You don't have to figure out what your load balancing is going to to look like. You use Octavia, which is load balancing service for OpenStack, very tightly integrated and things, you know, as you spin things up, they work as you as you would expect and so then all the other legacy applications and all the things you're used to doing with OpenStack, you bring on Kubernetes and you essentially do things the way you've been doing them before, with just an additional layer. >> Yeah, now I wonder if you can talk a little bit about the providers and the users, you know how do they get engaged, to and give us a little flavor around those. >> Yeah, so you get engaged, you go to OpenLabtesting.org and there's two options. One, is you can test out your applications and tools, by clicking get started, you fill that out. And what's great about open lab is that we actually reach out and we talk with you, we consult with you, per se, because we have a lot of variation in hardware that's available to us and so we want to figure out the right hardware that you need in order to do the tests that you want, so that we can get the output as it relates to that integration that will, of course, educate and inform the community at large of whether or not it's working and been validated. And, again, so as a person who wants to support OpenLab or for a provider, for example, who wants to support OpenLab, you click on the support OpenLab link, you fill out a form and you tell us you know, do you want to provide more infrastructure, do you want to talk with us about how clouds are being architected, integrations are being architected, things that you're seeing in the open source use cases that may not be getting the testing that they need and you're willing to work with engineers from other companies around that, so individual testers and then companies who may bring a number of testers together around a particular use case. >> Now, you're starting to publish some of the results of Interop testing and things like that. How is open lab, how does it produce its results, is it eventually going to be producing white papers and things like that or dashboards or what's your vision there? >> Yeah, so we produce a very archaic dashboard right now, but we're working with the CNCF to, if you go to CNCF.CI, and they have a very nice dashboard that kind of shows you a number of projects and whether or not they work together. And so it's open source, so what we want to do is work with that team to figure out how do we change the logos and the git repos, to how to driving those red and green, success or failure icons that are there, but they're relevant to the test that we're doing in OpenLab, so yeah. So we definitely want to have a dashboard that's very easy to decipher what tests are failing in or passing. >> Looking forward, what kinds of projects are you most interested in getting involved? >> Right now, very much Kubernetes, of course. We're really focusing on multi architecture, again, as a result of our work with Kubernetes and driving full conformance and multi architecture. That's kind of the wheelhouse at this time. We're open for folks to give us a lot of different use cases, like we were starting to look at some edge stuff, how can we participate there, we're starting looking at FPGA's and GPU's, so a lot different, we don't have a full integration in a lot of different areas, just yet, but we are having those conversations. >> So, actually, I spent a bunch of years, when I worked on the vendor side, living in an Interrupt lab, and the most valuable things were not figuring out what worked, but what broke, so what kind of things, you know, as you're working through this, what learnings back do you share with the community, both the providers and users? Big stumbling blocks that you can help people, give a red flag, or say you know, avoid these type of things. >> Yeah, exactly what you just said. You know, what's good is some of our stuff is geographically dispersed, so we can start to talk about if, what's the latency look like? You may, within that few square miles that you're operating and doing things, it works great, but when I'm sending something across the water how, is your product still moving quickly, is the latency too bad that we can't, I can't create a container over here because it takes too long, so one example of looking at something fail as it relates to that is we're talking with Octavia folks to see, if I spin up a lot of containers am I going to therefore create a lot of load balancers and if I create a lot of load balancers I'm creating a lot of VM's, or am I creating a lot of containers or are things breaking apart, so we need to dig a little bit further to understand what is and is not working with the integrations we're currently working on and then again we're exploring GPV, GPUs just landed more or less, that was a part of the keynote as well, and so now we're talking about, well, let's do some of that testing. The software, the code, is there but is it usable? And so that's one area we want to start playing around with. >> Okay, one of the other things in the keynote's got mentioned was Zul, the CIDT tool, how's that fitting into the OpenLab? >> Yeah, we use Zul as our gating, so what's great about Zul is that you can interac6t with projects from different SCM's, so we have some projects that live in github, some that utilize Garrote, some that utilize gitlab, and Zul has applicability where it can talk to different, it can talk across these different SCM's, and if you have a patch that depends on a patch in another another pod, so a patch on one project in one SCM can depend on a patch in another project, in a different SCM, and so what's great about Zul is that you can say, hey I'm depending on th6at, so before this patch lands, check to make sure this stuff works over there, so if it succeeds there and it's a dependency then you basically confirm that succeeds there and then now I can run the test here, and it passes here as well, so you know that you can use both of those projects together again, in an integration. Does it makes sense? Hopefully I'm making it very clear, the power there with the cross SCM integration. >> Yeah, Melvin, you've had a busy week, here, at the show. Any, you know, interesting things you learned this week or something that you heard from a customer that you thought, oh boy we got to, you know, get this into our lab or a road map or, you know-- >> The ARM story, the multi architecture is, I feel like that's really taking off. We've had discussions with quite a few folks around that, so yeah, that for me, that's the next thing that I think we're really going to concentrate a little bit harder on is, again, figuring out if there are some problems, because mostly it's been just x86, but we need to start exploring what's breaking as we add more to multi architecture. >> Melvin, no shortage of new things to test and play with, and every customer always brings some unique spins on things, so appreciate you giving us the update on OpenLab, thanks so much for joining us. >> You're Welcome. Thanks for having me. >> From John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching The Cube. (electronic music)

(upbeat electronic music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's The Cube, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 here in beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia. I'm Stu Miniman, with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program, it's been a couple of years, actually, Boris Renski, who is the co-founder and CMO of Merantis And also is on the keynote stage for the OpenDev part of this show here. Boris, great to see you, thanks for joining us. >> Good to see you guys, and great to be back. Thank you for having me back. >> Absolutely, so we're going to talk about OpenDev, we're going to talk about a few things, but let's start with Merantis, your company. I think back to some of my first experiences at the OpenStack show. First of all, Merantis always does great keynotes, I remember there was dancing on stage, there's fun T-shirts I actually coveted. I don't go after swag much, but it was like the Heisenburg 99.999%-- >> I remember that T-shirt, yeah. >> Pure T-shirt for the Breaking Bad fans out there, to date myself on this, but always bring some energy and excitement and Merantis was one of the companies really super glued to OpenStack, so bring us up to 2018. When I think of Merantis, what should I be thinking of and let's get into it from there. >> Yeah, so let me see. We are still super glued to OpenStack. We did go through some changes and some evolutions. I think given how long it's been since we've talked, the notable changes have been a change to our delivery approach and with it some of the changes to actually the underlying software stack, so the most common thing is that we've evolved Merantis OpenStack into what we now call Merantis Cloud Platform and the key difference is how we approach actually the life cycle management of the OpenStack itself. Before our tool for installing and basically updating OpenStack was Fuel which was very prescriptive and monolithic type of delivery method and what we realized is most of it, large customers that we have, they have a fairly heterogeneous reference architectures that you have to cater to and you have to be able to do that in such a way that it is cost effective, so we've rebuilt Fuel for to a new tool called DriveTrain which uses a continuous delivery pattern to manage and deliver updates to OpenStack and with that we've also tweaked out delivery model a little bit. Before we just followed traditional distro-model where we just throw out our software out there. You can download and play with it and call us and we'll support you. When it comes to complicated distributive systems like OpenStack, that are life-cycled following a continuous delivery pattern, most of the companies simply don't have the in-house talent and skills to just take it and start deriving value, so we've moved to what we refer to as a build, operate, transfer model where we actually come in and we set up the environment, we manage an environment to an SLA, give a customer four nines SLA on the up time of the OpenStack environment we're managing and after a period of a year, give the customer an opportunity to gradually take over the operations and by operations I mean, patches, updates, et cetera until after some time we just completely go away or we just take a role of a software support vendor, effectively. So that's on the core business side. Since we haven't talked in a while, so it's a little bit of a long update, sorry. >> Stu: Yeah, yeah, it's okay. >> The thing that we've been talking a lot about recently has been the new thing we launched in beta about a month and a half ago called Merantis application platform, so Merantis Cloud Platform is OpenStack, is our core business. Merantis Application Platform is a new thing that we have launched about month and a half ago that is based on Spinnaker and Spinnaker is this continuous delivery open source tool that's been built by Netflix, originally. >> Yeah, so before we get into the OpenDev and Spinnaker and all that stuff, want your viewpoint on the OpenStack piece, so really appreciate that update. There were years that we thought, oh, it's the battle for who's going to do distributions and as you said, it's not that easy and maybe we had poor expectations as an industry as to where we could take it and where it should be used, so how should people be thinking about OpenStack in general? Can you give us one or two of the key use cases you see in your customer base? >> Yeah, so, I think that what we realized is that when it comes to general purpose cloud, so to speak, there is not tremendous value, at least among the customers that we have the opportunity to interface with, to use OpenStack. You have something that's already in place and you don't touch it and that's usually VMware or you want something new general purpose, people go to public cloud, but there is an enormous opportunity for what we refer to as tuned stacks or clouds that are tuned to particular business use cases and this is where I think is an opportunity for OpenStack to excel and this is historically where we as Merantis been actually delivering value to our customers. So speaking of the use cases, our customer base is split, we split it into enterprise and telco. More than half of the customers, actually, are from the telco side. So telco clouds, there is a variety of use cases. Typically those use cases are function of the, and the overarching use case is NFE, virtually network function virtualization. The specificity and the reference architecture of the actual infrastructure environment is a function of the VNF that is running on that cloud and in some instances if you were to categorize this for telco space, you can think of it in terms of a big cloud for VNFs that don't need to be close to the edge and those that are stretching out to the smaller footprint all the way to the edge and those are vastly different reference architectures and you do different performance optimizations and tuning and this is something that you can only do with something like OpenStack. Now when it comes to the enterprise side, the actually emerging use case that we've been seeing quite a bit of is HPC, because, again, HPC is full of purpose-built equipment, you do networking differently, you do a lot of things differently and a lot of the times the general purpose public clouds don't work for it, so for HPC again, we have a set of reference architectures that are modeled within the Drivetrain that we can just deploy fairly easily out of the box that cater specifically to the HPC use case and the enterprise. >> Boris, do you think HPC then either includes now or evolves into ML and AI as well, again, bespoke hardware, very specific use case? >> Yes, eventually. I think that there is an opportunity there for some of the reference architectures and deployment topologies currently used for HPC to evolve towards some of the AI use cases. Again, I think that, when it comes to enterprise and AI, it's a bit early, so yeah. >> Boris, the tagline of the company is, The Managed Open Cloud Company, and you talked about managing, being a managed cloud. That's been a fascinating development over the last few years. We're seeing it at the OpenStack level and for instance at the kubernetes level as well. Can you talk a little bit about that approach and who are the customers that need that entry ramp or accelerator for these private cloud installations? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that... There are two types of ways to implement infrastructure, implement the cloud. There is those that are trying to, they are looking at public cloud and they are saying, okay, this is like, I see what Amazon's doing, what Google's doing is great. I want the same thing and I want it in-house, for security reasons, for whatever, compliance reasons, doesn't matter. So all of these guys that fall into this category, I think for them to become successful with the cloud on-prem, should follow the managed approach. Again, I'm a little bit biased on this in that I'm selling this-- >> That was always the hit against running your own private cloud is you didn't have, one did not have the expertise in-house-- >> Boris: Yeah, that's exactly correct. >> That's what we need. >> First of all, the whole evolution between Fuel to Drivetrain and using the CD pattern to life-cycling the infrastructure stack is something that there isn't talent out there, there isn't DNA out there and enterprises simply are not able to just go ahead and start doing it and the whole model that, when you go to Amazon, you just have this cloud that is continuously updated for you, you don't have to worry about anything, so this model implies that you focus on delivering the end service rather than delivering the software. When you go to Amazon, you don't get software, you don't get to pick and choose. You just get certain reference architecture that is delivered for you. The guys that want to replicate the Amazon on-premise effectively, in my view, have to be gradually on ramped onto that. You can't just grab the software, do DIY, and expect you'll have an Amazon. There's a second category and the second category is basically like the software guys, the guys that, they are not looking for Amazon, they are looking for cheaper VMware, which is a different experience. I have my own team, I have my opps guys, VMware is great, but it's too expensive, I don't want be locked into it, give me something that is different. So there is value in that, but this is not the segment of the market that we are going after and I don't think that cheaper VMware is what most people refer to when they talk about cloud. So I hope that answers the question. >> Absolutely, so you brought up Spinnaker before. Want to get your thoughts on the things usually, typically on top of OpenStack, but kubernetes, Spinnaker, containers in general. What's Merantis' position on this. What are you hearing from your customers and would love to tease out some of the Spinnaker stuff a bit more. >> Yeah, yeah. Spinnaker thing is fairly new for us. We've been tracking the space and Spinnaker in particular, probably for a year, although have come out publicly just recently about it. The reason why the space was interesting to us was because I think that everybody who is undergoing digital transformation and embracing cloud as a byproduct of it, is really after being able to run the company like a startup, being able to release faster, being able to release more often and in fact, when we'd come to our customers our opening pitch even for OpenStack has always been, buy OpenStack, that'll help you build software faster. On the one hand, it's kind of like a cool pitch, on the other hand, I think everybody in the company, including myself, we're not entirely comfortable with making that leap. OpenStack means I can have an API for my VM's and maybe containers, release software faster. How do you connect the two, right? So, we decided to, in trying to solve this problem of helping companies release software faster, for once rid ourselves of our existing business and our infrastructure centric views of the world and unpack the problem and see what are the real big issues with releasing software faster today. What we realized is that one of the biggest bottlenecks is actually the continuous delivery part because when it comes to continuous delivery or even not to use fancy terms just to, deploying anything to production in the enterprise. It's a very complicated process that requires coordination between multiple teams like the application team, the SRE team, the SEC opps team, all of these teams are using different tools and the handoff process and the handshakes between are very loose, generally so a developer can build something very quickly, but for it to hit production environment, and for the enterprise to actually get feedback from the customers on this, it takes a very long time. So we started thinking about how do you actually shorten that cycle? What can you do? With that kind of frame of mind, we've come across Spinnaker and what we realized is that Spinnaker is actually, in a sense, to continuous delivery what OpenStack is to infrastructure, because the reason why OpenStack became popular is because it's effectively, on one hand, has all these plugins for diverse infrastructure, and on the other hand you can automate the orchestration process of bringing up a VM, instead of having your server people come in, put in the server, your operating people come in and install operating system, the network people come in, configure the network, et cetera, it's actually built a workflow and orchestrated the whole thing automatically without necessarily requiring companies to throw away their existing infrastructure investment. And if you go to the CD space, the situation's kind of similar. You have all these different teams, you have all these different tools, and you need to find a way to automate and orchestrate this process so that you minimize the number of human steps and this is exactly the problem space that Spinnaker's been tackling, so it's a portent of this plugability and having a single API for the entire CD chain and the best implementation would be the one like Netflix has is where the actual developers are able to just deploy to production directly. All of this orchestration between all the testing and all the stuff is done by Spinnaker behind the scenes, so we feel that actually tackling that problem and bringing this innovation into the enterprise is going to be something very dramatic at producing something at an order of magnitude performance gains for our customers. >> Of course, one of the things the foundation announced was the Zule CI/CD. Can you help us reconcile Zule and Spinnaker? >> Zule is from what I would characterize it, primarily deals with VCI side of the spectrum and I mentioned this in my talk, so one of the things we learned as a company is if you unpack CI/CD, which most people, at least in the infrastructure space look at it like it's one thing, like oh CI/CD thing, it's like one thing, basically. In reality, it's not one thing, it's completely separate things, so CI primarily has to do with actually building the code into something that can be deployed, into some deployable artifact and CD takes on from there. So Zule deals primarily with the CI part and it deals with it in a particular way for a set of specific use cases, so Zule emerged as the CI infrastructure for OpenStack Project itself and OpenStack is a very peculiar project in that, there's thousands of developers with different viewpoints on the world that are highly distributed, building many different components that are loosely coupled that all need to come together somehow. So you need to have distributed CI systems that talk to each other and you can merge all of this code and test it all together, so that use case is very relevant for large open source projects and it's probably relevant for enterprises who want to adopt similar type of practices for software development internally, so if you want to some extent de-silo many distributed Dev teams that you have internally as an enterprise and overlay standard process for the CI piece of it for everybody, I think Zule is a good solution and Spinnaker then comes after that, as an additive that does the deployment part. >> John: Yep, that makes sense. >> Alright, for us unfortunately we're running low on time, not going to have much time to dig in to the OpenDev piece. Last question I actually wanted to ask you is what do you say to the naysayers out there. People that aren't here sometimes tend to throw stones at OpenStack failed, OpenStack is dead, all the VCs pulled out years ago. Merantis has been through it and you've got customers. We've had a good experience this week, but it's a different OpenStack than it was a few years ago, so just if you could give us the final word on that. >> Yeah, so, good question. I think that... Basically, OpenStack was at this insane hype back in the day and it's natural to expect that the higher the hype, the bigger going to be the drop, but I think that all technologies ultimately, they can not sustain the hype. You have to level out at a certain point that is equal to the true customer value that you are delivering. So I think that the naysaying is a function of very high hype that has now leveled to the... What it should be, really, in terms of the value being delivered by OpenStack. And there's this pool, it generated this big pool of the naysayers that are walking around and saying that it is dead and the reason why there's the pool is because indeed there is a lot of investment, there is enormous amount of startups that kind of like, ah, we are the cool guys, we are going to change the world, we are going to kill Amazon, whatever, that now are completely gone and now of course they are naysayers and saying that the whole thing's dead, but on the flip side of that, if you just walk around the summit, you can see that there's many more users, there's many more customers that are actually talking about real use cases and then the companies that did stay and stick around, like ourselves, like Red Hat, like Canonical and SUSE, actually, are seeing continued growth and increased usage, so just a nice closing comment is our biggest customer for OpenStack is AT&T. We've been with them for five years now and they've been very excited about it and then, no it's all going to be dead, it's going to be containers now, and nuh nuh nuh, but despite all of that, the usage is continuing to grow and there is 10,000 nodes plus now running physical servers with OpenStack and it continues to work and it just, workloads are moving to it and AT&T is not the only one. There is plenty more that are following this trend, so it's a very long answer to your question, but I remain optimistic. For us it's still very much core of our business and we're continuing to see growth and usage and we are sticking around and sticking to OpenStack. >> Alright, well Boris Renski, it's, as you know, one of our earliest taglines was helping to extract the signal from the noise. We appreciate you helping us to understand the reality outside the hype. So for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, more coverage here from the OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thank you for watching The Cube. (upbeat electronic music) (soft piano music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada. It's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program two CUBE alums. We have Alan Clark, who's the board chair of the OpenStack Foundation and in the CTO office of SUSE. >> Yep, thank you. >> Thanks for joining us again. It's been a few years. >> It's been a while, I appreciate being back. >> And Lew Tucker, the vice chair of the OpenStack Foundation and vice president and CTO of Cisco. Lew, it's been weeks. >> Exactly right. >> All right. >> I've become a regular here. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, first of all, John Furrier sent his regard. He wishes he was here, you know. John's always like come on Lew and I, everybody, we were talking about when this Kubernetes thing started and all the conferences, so it's been a pleasure for us to be here. Six years now at this show, as well as some of the remote days and other things there. It's been fun to watch the progressions of-- >> Isn't it amazing how far we've come? >> Yeah, absolutely. Here's my first question for you, Alan. On the one hand, I want you to talk about how far we've gone. But the other thing is, people, when they learn about something, whenever they first learn about it tends to fossilize in their head, this is what it is and always will be. So I think most people know that this isn't the Amazon killer or you know it's free VMware. That we talked about years ago. Bring us a little bit of that journey. >> Well, so, you know, it started with the basic compute storage and as we've watched open-source grow and adoption of open-source grow, the demands on services grow. We're in this transformation period where everything's growing and changing very rapidly. Open-source is driving that. OpenStack could not stay static. When it started, it solved a need, but the needs continued to grow and continued to change. So it's not surprising at all that OpenStack has grown and changed and will continue to grow and change. >> So Lew, it's been fascinating for me, you know. I've worked with and all these things with Cisco and various pieces for my entire career. You're here wearing the OpenStack @ Cisco shirt. And Cisco's journey really did through that to digital transformation themselves. When I talked to Rowan at Cisco Live Barcelona, the future of Cisco is as a software company. So, help set OpenStack into that kind of broader picture. >> Sure, I think one of the aspects of that is that we're seeing now it is becoming this multi-cloud world. And that we see all of our customers are running in the public cloud. They have their own private data centers. And what they're looking for is they want their whole development model and everything else to now become targeted towards that multi-cloud world. They're going to do services in the public cloud, they still have their private data center. OpenStack is a place for them to actually meet and run all their services 'cause now you can build your environment within your data center that makes it look very much like your public cloud, so your developers don't have two completely different mindsets. They have the same one, it's extracting resources on demand. And that one, we're putting on top of that other newer technology that's coming, such as Kubernetes. We've got a real consistency between those environments. >> Yeah, please Alan. >> I was going to say, it enables you to leverage your existing infrastructure so you don't want to make them, particularly those SUSE's customers, they don't want us to come in and say throw everything away, start afresh right? But at the same time, you've got to be able to embrace what's new and what's coming. We're talking about many new technologies here in OpenStack Summit today right? Containers and all sorts of stuff. A lot of those things are still very new to our customers and they're preparing for that. As Lew said, we're building that infrastructure. >> One of the things, as I'm thinking about it, some people look at, they look at codec containers and some of these pieces outside of the OpenStack project and they're like, well what's the Foundation doing? But I believe it should be framed, and please, please, I would love your insight on this, in that multi-cloud discussion because this is, it can't just be, well, this is how you build private. It needs to be, this is how you live in this multi-cloud environment. >> That's why I think, you're beginning to see us talk about open infrastructure. And this is using open-source software to use software to manage your infrastructure and build it out instead of configuration, cabling, having guys going out, plugging in, unplugging network ports and whatever. We want software and automations to do all that, so OpenStack is one of the cloud platforms. But these other projects are now coming into the Foundation, which also expand that notion of open infrastructure, and that's why we're seeing these projects expand. >> Lew's exactly right and it goes beyond that. Back in 2017, early 2017, we recognized, as a board, that it's not going to be just about the projects within OpenStack. We have to embrace our adjacent communities and embrace those technologies. So that's why you're hearing a lot about Kubernetes and containers and networking and all sorts of projects that are not necessarily being done within OpenStack but you're seeing how we're collaborating with all those other communities. >> And codec is a perfect example of that. Codec containers came out of those clear containers. It's now combining the best of both worlds, 'cause now you get the speed of containers bringing up, but you get the security and isolation of virtual machines. That's important in the OpenStack community, in our world, because that's what we want out of our clouds. >> Well you both have just mentioned community a few times. I saw one thing coming in to this conference, I'm so impressed by the prominence of community. It's up on stage from the first minutes of the first keynote. People, the call to action, the pleas, for the folks, some of us have been here years and years, for the new folks, please come meet us right? That's really inviting, it's very clear that this is a community. >> Yeah I was surprised, actually, 'cause we saw it when we were asked when up on stage how many people were here for the first time? More than half the audience raised their hand. >> Alan: I was surprised by that as well. >> That was the real surprise. And at the same time, we're seeing, increasingly, users of OpenStack coming in as opposed the people who are in core projects. We're seeing Progressive insurance coming in. We're seeing Adobe Marketing Cloud having over 100,000 cores running OpenStack. That's in addition to what we've had with Walmart and others so the real users are coming. So our communities, not just the developers but the users of OpenStack and the operators. >> That's always an interesting intention for an open-source project right. You have the open-source contributors, and then you have the users and operators. But here at the show right? All of these different technology tracks. Part of community is identity. And so, as the technical work has been split-off, and is actually at another event, these are the users. But it does, with all these other technology conversations, I wonder what the core identity of, I'm an OpenStack member, like what does that end up meaning in a world of open infrastructure? if the projects, if the OpenStack itself is more mature, and as we get up the letters of the alphabet towards Z, How do you all want to steer what it means to be a member of the OpenStack community. >> We met on Sunday as a joint leadership. So we had, it wasn't just a board meeting, it was a meeting with the technical committee, it was a meeting with the user committee. So we're very much pushing to make sure we have those high interactions, that the use cases are getting translated into requirements and getting translated into blueprints and so forth. We're working very, very hard to make sure we have that communication open. And I think one of the things that sets the OpenStack community apart is what we call our Four Opens. We base everything on our Four Opens and one of those is communication, transparency and communication. And that's what people are finding enticing. And one of the big reasons is I think they're coming to OpenStack to do that innovation and collaboration. >> We've seen the same thing with Linux, for example. Linux is no longer just the operating system when people think about the Linux community. Linux community is the operating system and then all of these other projects associated with them. That's the same thing that we're seeing with OpenStack. That's why we're continuing to see, wherever there's a need as people are deploying OpenStack and operating it and running it, all of these other open-source components are coming into it because that's what they really were running, that conglomerate of projects around it. >> Certainly, the hype cycle, and maybe Linux went through it's own hype cycle, back in the day and I'm from Silicon Valley. I think the hype cycle outside the community and what's actually happening on the ground here actually are meshed quite well. What I saw this week, like you said, real users, big users, infrastructure built into every bank, transport, telecom in the world. That's a global necessary part of the infrastructure of our planet. So outside of investment, things like that-- >> Well I hope you can help us get the message out. Because that is, a major thing that we see and we experience the conf, people who are not here. They still, then maybe look at OpenStack the way it was, maybe, four years ago, and it was difficult to deploy, and people were struggling with it, and there was a lot of innovation happening at a very, very fast rate. Well now, it's proven, it's sort of industrial grade, it's being deployed at a very large scale across many, many industries. >> Well it's interesting. Remember, Lew, when we were talking about ethernet fabrics. We would talk about some of SDN and some of these big things. Well, look sometimes these things are over-hyped. It's like, well, there's a certain class of the market who absolutely needs this. If I'm at Telco, and I sat here a couple of years ago, and was like, okay, is it 20 or 50 companies in the world that it is going to be absolutely majorly transformative for them and that's hugely important. If I'm a mid-sized enterprise, I'm still not sure how much I'm caring about what's happening here, no offense, I'd love to hear some points there. But what it is and what it isn't with targets, absolutely, there are massive, massive clouds. Go to China, absolutely. You hear a lot about OpenStack here. Coming across the US, I don't hear a lot about it. We've known that for years. But I've talked to cloud provider in Australia, we've talked to Europeans that the @mail who's the provider for emails for certain providers around the world. It's kind of like okay, what part of the market and how do we make sure we target that because otherwise, it's this megaphone of yeah, OpenStack, well I'm not sure that was for me. >> So, yeah, what's your thought? >> We're seeing a lot of huge variety of implementations, users that are deploying OpenStack. And yeah we always think about the great big ones right? I love CERN, we love the Walmarts. We love China Mobiles, because they're huge, great examples. But I have to say we're actually seeing a whole range of deployments. They don't get the visibility 'cause they're small. Everybody goes, oh you're running on three machines or 10 machines, okay, right? Talk to me when you're the size of CERN. But that's not the case, we're seeing this whole range of deployments. They probably don't get much visibility, but they're just as important. So there's tons of use cases out there. There's tons of use cases published out there and we're seeing it. >> One of the interesting use cases with a different scale has been that edge discussion. I need a very small-- >> In fact that's a very pointed example, because they've had a ton of discussion because of that variety of needs. You get the telcos with their large-scale needs, but you've also got, you know, everybody else. >> It's OpenStack sitting at the bottom of a telephone pole. On a little blade with something embedded. >> In a retail store. >> It's in a retail store. >> Or in a coffee shop. >> Yeah. >> So this is really where we recognizing over and over again we go through these transitions that it used to be, even the fixed devices out of the edge. To change that, you have to replace that device. Instead, we want automation and we want software to do it. That's why OpenStack, moving to the edge, where it's a smaller device, much more capability, but it still computes storage and networking. And you want to have virtualized applications there so you can upgrade that, you can add new services without sending a truck out to replace that. >> Moving forward, do we expect to see more interaction between the Foundation itself and other foundations and open-source projects? And what might that look like? >> It depends on the community. It really does, we definitely have communications from at the board level from board-to-board between adjacent communities. It happens at the grassroots level, from, what we call SIGs or work groups with SIGs and work groups from those adjacent communities. >> I happen to sit on three boards, which is the OpenStack board the CNCF board, Cloud Foundry. And so what we're also seeing, though, now. For example, running Kubernetes, we just have now the cloud provider, which, OpenStack, being a cloud provider for Kubernetes similar in the open way that Amazon had the cloud provider for Kubernetes or Google is the cloud provider. So that now we're seeing the communities working together 'cause that's what our customers want. >> And now it's all driven by SIGs. >> The special interest groups, both sides getting together and saying, how do we make this happen? >> How do we make this happen? >> All right. One of the things you look at, there's a lot going on at the show. There's the OpenDev activity, there's a container track, there's an edge track. Sometimes, you know, where it gets a little unfocused, it's like let's talk about all the adjacencies, wait what about the core? I'd love to get your final takeaways, key things you've seen at the show, takeaways you want people to have when they think about OpenStack the show and OpenStack the Foundation. >> From my point of view it actually is back to where we started the conversation, is these users that are now coming out and saying, "I've been running OpenStack for the last three years, "now we're up to 100,000 or 200,000 cores." That shows the real adoption and those are the new operators. You don't think of Walmart or Progressive as being a service provider but they're delivering their service through the internet and they need a cloud platform in which to do that. So that's one part that I find particularly exciting. >> I totally agree with Lew. The one piece I would add is I think we've proven that it's the right infrastructure for the technology of the future, right? That's why we're able to have these additional discussions around edge and additional container technologies and Zuul with containers testing and deployment. It fits right in, so it's not a distraction. It's an addition to our infrastructure. >> I think the idea around, and that's why we actually broke up into these different tracks and had different keynotes around containers and around edge because those are primary use cases now. Two years ago when I think we were talking here, and like NFV and all the telcos were, and now that has succeeded because almost all the NFV deployments now are based on OpenStack. Now we're seeing it go to containers and edge, which are more application specific deployments. >> I'd love for you to connect the dots for us from the NFV stuff we were talking about a couple of years ago to the breadth of edge. There is no edge, it depends on who you are as to what the edge is, kind of like cloud was a few years ago. >> I mean, we actually have a white paper. If you go to OpenStack.org or just Google OpenStack edge white paper, I think you'll see that there are a variety of cases that are from manufacturing, retail, telco, I saw even space, remote driving vehicles and everything else like that. It's where latency really matters. So that we know that cloud computing is the fastest way to deploy and maintain, upgrade new applications, virtualize applications on a cloud. It's unfortunately too far away from many the places that have much more real-time characteristics. So if you're under 40 milliseconds or whatever, or you want to get something done in a VR environment or whatever, under five milliseconds, you can't go back to the cloud. It also, if you have an application, for example, a security monitoring application, whatever. 99% of the time, the video frames are the same and they're not interesting, don't push all that information back into the central cloud. Process it locally, now when you see frames that are changing, or whatever, you only use the bandwidth and the storage in the central cloud. So we're seeing this relationship between what do you want computed at the edge and how much computing can you do as we get more powerful there and then what do you want back in the centralized data centers. >> Daniel: While you simplify the management. >> Exactly right. >> Orchestration, policy. >> But you still need the automation, you need it to be virtualized, you need it to be managed in that way, so you can upgrade it. >> Alan Clark, Lew Tucker, always a pleasure to catch up. >> Thank you, yeah, >> Thank you so much for joining us. >> It's good to be here. >> John Troyer and I will be back with lots more coverage from OpenStack Summit 2018 here in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Vancouver, Canada it's the CUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the Open Stack Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and my cohost John Troyer and you're watching the CUBE, the worldwide leader in tech coverage. Happy to welcome back to the program long time friend of the CUBE back from the earliest days, Randy Bias, Vice President with Juniper, Randy, great to see you. >> Absolutely, great to be back with you guys. >> All right, so Randy, we've been talking about, you know, community, and everything's going good and attendance might be down a little bit but how we fit in with containers and kubernetes, and everything, so we expect you to tear everything up for us and tell us the reality of what's happening in this community. >> I'll do my best (laughing). >> All right, so before we get to the kubernetic stuff, you're working on, we used to call it OpenContrail? Which you were involved in before Juniper acquired it, went through a rebranding recently, Tungsten, which I was looking up, came from the word heavy stone, give us the update from the networking side. >> Yeah, so the short history is that there was a company called Contrail, and they created a software defined networking controller, it was acquired by Juniper in 2012, 2013, and then that was open sourced, so Juniper for a long time was running with sort of two editions, Contrail which was the commercial offering, and OpenContrail which was the open source, and then shortly after I joined Juniper, identified that, you know, we really needed to go back to the drawing board on the way that we had organized the community, and transition it from being Juniper-led to community led, and so over the past year, I spearheaded that effort, and then that culminated in us announcing at the end of March at ONS that, you know, OpenContrail was now Tungsten Fabric. We renamed it, we moved it into the Linux foundation, under its governance, and now Juniper is one of many people of the community that have a seat at the table for the management, both from a business and technical perspective, and we're moving forward with a new reinvigorated community. >> Yeah, so networking sits at really the intersection of this multi-cloud world that we're living in. There's so many players trying to be there, you know Cisco, really moving to become more of a software company, when I interviewed their number two guy at their show, he's like, when you think of Cisco in the future, we're not even going to be a networking company, we'll be a software company. VMware, of course, pushed heavy through, then the Nicira acquisition, where does Tungsten fit, kind of compare and contrast for us, where it fits among some of these other offerings out there in the marketplace. >> Yeah, I mean, I think most enterprise vendors are in a similar transition from being a hardware to software companies. We're no different than any of the rest. I think we have a pretty significant advantage in that we have a lot of growth in the cloud sector, so a lot of the large public clouds are our customers and we're selling a tremendous amount of hardwaring to them, so I think we've got a lot longer runway. But, you know, we just recently hired CTO, Bikash Koley, out of Google, and we're starting to see some additional folks out of Google, like my new boss, Morgan, and what that's bringing with it is a very much a software first type perspective. So Bikash and Morgan really built everything for the Google network from the topper rack all the way out to the win and it's almost all software-based, disaggregated, hardware, software, opensource software running on top of white boxes, and so that kind of perspective is now really deep, start beginning to become embedded in Juniper. And at the head of that is Tungsten. So we see Tungsten Fabric as being sort of a tool that we use to create, you know, a global ubiquitous network fabric, that anybody can use anywhere, without talking to Juniper at all, without knowing that Juniper's part of Tungsten, and then as they grow up and they get to a point where they need multi-cloud, they need federation, or they need kind of day two enterprise operations, you know, we have a commercial version and a commercial distribution that they can use. >> Randy, we talked a little bit about OpenContrail and last year, at OpenStack Summit and moving it to a more of a community based governance model, and now that's happened with the Linux Foundation, can you talk a little bit about the role of opensource governance, and corporate governance, and then foundations, and just going forward, you know, what's an effective model for 2018 going forward, for a foundation-led project and maybe in the context of Tungsten Fabric, and how is that looking? >> Yeah, so again, OpenContrail's now Tungsten Fabrics, might be new for some of the viewers, lot of people still coming to terms with that. And so one of the things that we noticed is that, and when many people go and they say, hey, we want opensource first, the AT&T's of this world, part of what they're saying, one of the aspects of being opensource versus we want to be one of many around the table, we want to have a seat at the table, we want to have the option to contribute code back, and we want to feel like it's a group effort. And so that was a big factor, right? It was an opensource project, but it was largely the governance was carried by Juniper, all the testing infrastructure was Juniper, you know, all of the people who made architectural decisions were Juniper, all of the lead contributors were Juniper, and so, going to Linux Foundation was critical to us having a legal framework, for the trademarks, the code, the licenses, the contributor license agreements, are all owned and operated by the Linux Foundation and not by Juniper, so we basically have a trusted third party who can mediate all those things and create a structure, a governance small structure where Juniper has one seat at the table, and all the other community members do as well. So it was really key to getting, to moving to that model to increase people's interest in the project and to really go the next level. There just wasn't any way to do it without doing this. >> All right, so, Randy, let's talk about OpenStack. You were watching the keynote yesterday, you were, you know, in the Twitter stream, >> Randy: I don't usually watch keynotes, man. >> Stu: But you know this community, so-- >> I do know this community (laughing). >> Give us kind of the good, the bad, and the ugly from your standpoint as to, you know, where we've gone, you know, what's doing well, and what you're frustrated as heck that we still haven't fixed yet. >> Well, I mean, it's great that we have so much inroads amongst the carriers, it's great that, you know, that there's a segment that OpenStack has been able to land in. I mean, at some points when I was feeling particularly pessimistic on some days, I was like, oh man, this thing's never going to go anywhere, so that's great. On the other hand, you know, the promise that we had of sort of being the Linux operating center, operating system of the data center, and you know, really gaining inroads into private cloud and enterprise, that just hasn't materialized and I don't see a path to that. A lot of that has to do with history, I'm not sure how much of that I want to go into here, but I see those as being bright lights. I see the Ocata containers effort and sort of having this alternative structure that's more or less like the umbrella structure that I lobbied for while I was on the board. So for several years on the board, I said we need to really look more like the Apache Software Foundation, we need to look less like the Linux Operating System in terms of how we think about things. Not this big integrated monolithic release, you need more competition between projects and that just wasn't really embraced. And I think that that, in a way, that was one of several things that really kind of limited our ability to capture the market that we really wanted, which is the enterprise market. >> Yeah, well, I know, and one of those sticking points there that I've talked to you many times over the years about is how do I actually deploy this? You know, getting a base configuration and scaling this out, simplicity is tough, getting to those environments, you know, getting it up in two weeks, is good for some environments, but maybe not for others. >> Yeah, I mean I think there's sort of a spectrum, right? At one end of the spectrum, you say hey, I'm going to have a very opinionated approach like kubernetes does, and we're going to limit what we say we can do, you know, we're not all things to all people. And I think that opinionated approach, like the Linux operating system worked very, very well. And then other end of the spectrum is we've got no opinion like the Apache Software Foundation, and then it's up to vendors to go and cherry pick the pieces they want and turn that into some kind of commercial offering, whether it's Hortonworks, or Thi-dare or Du-per or whatever it is, the problem is that OpenStack wound up in the middle where it had the sort of integrated monolithic release cycle which it still does, which started to be all things to all people, and it was never as great as it could be, so it's like we got to support Hyper-V, we got to support VMware, and as the laundry list of all things we have to support grew longer, it became more and more difficult to have a compelling, easy to use, easy to scale offering that any enterprise could consume. >> Randy, a lot of talk this week about edge computing, with several different definitions, right? But it does strike me that, you know, there's a certain set of apps, that you write 'em and that they live fine in a big public cloud, and a big data center somewhere. But there's a lot of hardware that's going to be living out in the world, whether that's at the base of a radio tower, or in a wall, or in my shoe, that is going to be running hardware, and is going to be running something, and sometimes that something can be OpenStack, and we're seeing some examples of it, many examples of that already. Is that an area of growth for OpenStack? Is that an interesting part of how this fabric is going to expand? >> Well, I probably have a contrarian view here. So, I spent a bunch of time at Juniper, one of the things I worked on for a while was edge computing and we're still trying to decide what we want to do there and you know, kind of to the first point you made is everybody's edge is different, right? Is it on the mobile phone, is it back in the data center, the difference is that the real estate gets more expensive as you move out, right? And it's in terms of latency, and it's in terms of bandwidth and it's also in terms of cost of storage and compute. There's a move closer to the mobile device that becomes progressively more expensive, and so that's why a lot of people sort of look and say hey, wouldn't it be nice if we can get you out the closer lower latency and bandwidth and so on but as we looked at it, a lot of the different use cases it became really interesting in that, it wasn't clear if there was that much value between 5 milliseconds and 20 milliseconds, right? I mean, that's pretty, either one's pretty close, sure there's a lot of difference between 20 and a 100, but maybe not so much between 5 and 20. And so we kind of came to the conclusion that at least for right now, probably, the bulk of use cases are fine with 20 milliseconds, and what that means is that regional systems like AWS's Lambda at the Edge, they're in metro, those are probably good for most cases. I don't know that you need to be on the tower, I don't know that you need to be in the central office, so I think edge computing is still nascent, we don't know exactly what all those use cases are, but I think you might be able to service most of them from regional data centers, and then the question really becomes what does that stack need to be and if you have a regional data center that's got plenty of power, plenty of space, then it might be that OpenStack is a good solution, but if you're trying to scale down onto the tower, I got to have some doubts about whether OpenStack can really scale down that far. >> Randy, analytics is something we've been seeing, the networking people used for many years, at this show, starting to hear a lot of discussion about AI and ML, would love your view point as to what you're seeing in that space. >> You know I have some friends who started off in AI in very early days and he had a very pessimistic view. He said, you know this stuff comes and goes, but I'm actually very positive and optimistic about it because the way I look at this is there's a renaissance happening which is that, you know, now ML is really available to masses and you're seeing people do really interesting things like, we have a product called AppFormix, and what they do is they take ML and they apply it to operations and I love this because as an operations guy, you know, I used to have these problems in production where something would go out and the first thing I'd do, is I'm trying to do correlation and then root cause analysis, like, what was the actual failure? Like I can see the symptom on this end and now I have to get all the way back to what caused it, and the reality is that machine learning, AI techniques and protocols can do all the heavy lifting for operators very, very quickly and basically surface a problem for somebody to do the final analysis on. And so I do think that ML and AI apply to very specific vertical problems, it is just a place where we're going to see a tremendous amount of revolution in the next couple years. >> All right, and that hits right at really that intersection between kind of the developers and the operators there-- >> Absolutely. >> What are you seeing from an organizational standpoint, companies you're talking to these days, how are they doing adopting that change, dealing with that, you know, often schism or are they bringing those groups together? >> Well, I think you remember that like in the early days, I used bring my deck along and I would talk about assembly line IT versus the robotics spectrum all of IT and I would sort of make that sort of analogy to sort of the car manufacturing process, and I think what machine learning is really going to do is take us to that next level past that right? So we had the assembly line where we have all the specialists, we had the robotics factory where we had people who know how to build a robots and software, and it's really sort of like, just churning out with a lot of people on the line, and I think the next level after that is, you know, completely fully automated applications driving themselves, you know, self-driving applications, and I think that's when things get really interesting, and maybe we start to remove the traditional operator out of the equation and it really becomes about empowering developers with tools that are comfortable and that leverage all the cloud era and stuff that we built. >> All right, so Randy, you're credited with the pets versus cattle analogy, what's the latest, you were talking about some of the previous slide decks, what's Randy Bias looking on down the road? >> I mean, the stuff just comes to me, man. I can't like predict, but the thing I've been talking about a lot lately is services of platform, I think we might've talked about that last time, which is just this notion that if we look at where Amazon's invested and what's interesting, it's certainly not at the infrastructure layer and it's really not at the PAS layer, it's that thick layer in between with like database as a service and NoSQL as a service, and messaging service, and DNS and so on, where you can kind of cherry pick those things as you're assembling your own PAS for your application, and I still think that's the area that is under-discussed, and the reason is is the people back into basically doing that, building kind of the service as a platform system, but they're not like going into it, kind of like eyes wide open. >> Yeah, so just following up on that last piece, one of the criticisms I have this week is when you talk about multi-cloud, most of the people talk about, oh well people are clawing things back to their data centers. Juniper plays across the board, strong partnership with Amazon, yet you're here, what are you hearing from customers, you know, what do you see as kind of the balance there and, you know, the public cloud's role in the world? >> I mean, they're still winning, right? I don't think there's any doubt, I haven't seen a decline back here talking about, but we are starting to enter into the era of, okay, this stuff is out there, and it's running, but I need to find my governance model, I need to understand who's using what, I need to understand what it's costing me, and that's the sign of the maturation process. And so I think that, you know, we saw in the early days of cloud, people jumping the gun, creating compliance services, and you know, SAS products that would basically measure how much you're spending and think that it's time for that stuff to come back in vogue again, because the tool needs to be there for people to manage these extended supply chain of IT vendors which include the public cloud. And I think that the idea that would claw them back as opposed to like just see that as holistic part of what we're trying to accomplish doesn't make any sense. >> Well learned. Well, Randy Bias, always a pleasure to catch up with you. >> John. >> John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, getting towards the end of two days of three days of live coverage. Thanks for staying with the CUBE. (bubbly electronic music)

(ambient Music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE. Covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, The OpenStack Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman, my cohost for the week is John Troyer, happy to welcome back to the program two CUBE alumni, we have Margaret Dawson and John Alessio. Margaret is the vice-president of Portfolio Product Marketing and John is the vice-president of Global Services. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> Good to be here. >> Alright so, John has gotten the week and a half now of the red hat greatness of being at summit last week, I unfortunately missed Summit, first time in five years I hadn't been at the show, did watch some of the interviews, caught up on it, and of course we talked to a lot of your team but, Margaret, let's start with you >> Margaret: Okay. >> One of the things we were looking at was, really, it's not just a maturation of OpenStack, but it's beyond where we were, how it fits into the greater picture, something we've been observing is when you think about open sourced projects, it's not one massive stack that you just deploy, it's you take what you need, it kind of gets embedded all over the place, and help us frame for us where we are today. >> Wow, that's a big question. So I think there's a couple things, I mean, in talking to customers, I think there's a couple trends that are happening. One is one you've probably talked about a lot and we probably covered at the Red Hat Summit which is just this overall digital transformation, digital leadership, whatever you want to call it, digital disruption tends to be a thing, and open sources definitely playing, really, the critical role of that, right, you will not be able to innovate and disrupt or even manage a disruption if you're not able to get to those technologies and innovations quickly and be able to adapt to it and have it work with other things. So the need for openness, for open APIs, for open technologies, inner-operability allows us to move faster and have that innovation and agility that every enterprise and organization needs world wide. And tied to that is kind of this overall hybrid cloud, so it's not just, OpenStack is a part of a much bigger kind of solution or goal that enterprises have in order to win and transform and be a digital leader. >> Margaret, I love that. Digital transformation, absolutely something we hear time and again from customers. >> Margaret: Yup. >> John, I've got a confession to make. I'm an infrastructure person and sometimes we're always like, why, come on, we spend all our time talking about how all the widgets and doo-dads and things-- >> Margaret: Blinky lights. >> Blinky lights, up on stage we have the-- >> He missed the blinking lights >> He did miss the blinking light. >> They had a similar stack up on stage yesterday. >> Oh, that's right. >> Same fans you could hear in the back of the room. But the whole goal of infrastructure always, of course, is to run the application, the whole reason for applications is to run and transform and do-- >> John: Serve the business >> Yeah, so that's where I'm going with this is we're talking more about not only that foundational layer of OpenStack but everything that goes with it and on it so maybe you could talk about the services-- >> Sure. So I think, Stu, that's exactly what we're seeing. So if you think about the last year and what we're seeing with services and projects here on OpenStack, I think the first thing to talk about is the fact that it's been growing quite a bit, in fact, from a 2017 versus 2018 perspective, our number of OpenStack projects have increased 36% year on year globally. So we're seeing a lot of demand, but we're seeing the projects be a lot more comprehensive. So these are OpenStack projects, but they're OpenStack with Open Shift, with Cloud Form, with Suff, as an example, and this combination is, really, a very very powerful combination. In fact, it's been so powerful that we started to see some common patterns of customers building a hybrid cloud solution, using OpenStack as their kind of private cloud infrastructure, but then using Open Shift as their way to kind of deploy applications in containers in that hybrid way, that we created a whole solution, which we announced two weeks ago, when John was at our Red Hat Summit, called Containers on Cloud. And that's taking all of our best practices around combining these products together in a very comprehensive, programmatic approach to deploying those solutions together. >> And I think it's really important, I mean, as you know, I think you and I met when we were both in networking, so coming from that infrastructure background but we really all need to talk about the workload down, starting with the application, starting with the business goal, and then how the infrastructure is almost becoming a services-based abstraction layer where you just need it to be always there. >> John: Yup. >> And whether it's public cloud or private cloud or traditional infrastructure, what developers in the business want is that agility and flexibility and containers provide that. There's other kind of architectural fabrics that allow that consistency and that's when it gets really exciting. >> One thing that's really interesting to me this week at OpenStack, as we've drilled into different customers, and talking to different people, even at lunch, is one, it's real. Everyone I've talked to, stuff in deployment, it went quickly, it's rock solid, it's powering, as we know, actually a lot of that is technical infrastructure that's powering a lot of the world's infrastructure at this point. >> That's right. >> The other thing that was interesting to me is some folks I talked to were saying, "Well, actually we have enough knowledge "that we're actually doing a lot of it ourselves, "we're going upstream." However, so that's great, and that's right for some people, but what I'm kind of been interested in both just coming from Red Hat Summit is both the portfolio, the breadth of the stack, and then all the different offerings that Red Hat, you know, it's not Rel anymore, it's not just Linux anymore, there's everything that's been built up and around and on top for orchestration and management, and then also the training, the services, the support, and that sort of thing, and I was wondering, that's kind of a two-part question, but maybe you all could tackle that. What does Red Hat bring to the table then? >> So, let me just start with, again, just to kind of position what we do as global services, our number one priority is customer success with Red Hat technology, that's the first and foremost thing we do and second is really around building expertise in the ecosystem so our customers have choice and where to go to get that expertise. So, if you start to look at kind of what's been going on as it relates to OpenStack, and, again, many customers are using Upstream bits, but many customers are using Red Hat bits, we see that and we look at the number of people who are getting trained around our technology. So over the last three years, we've trained, through our fee-based programs, 55,000 people on our OpenStack portfolio and in fact from 2017 to 2018 that was up 50% year on year and so the momentum is super super strong. So, that's the first point. The second is it's not just our customers. So part of my remit is, yes, to run consulting and, yes, to drive customer enablement and training, but it's also to build an ecosystem through our business partners. Our business partners use a program we call OPEN, Online Partner Enablement Network, which actually will just be celebrating five years just like OpenStack will, we'll be celebrating five years for OPEN. And our business partner accreditations on OpenStack specifically are up 49% year on year. So we're seeing the momentum in our regional systems integrators, our global systems integrators, our partners at large, building their solutions and capabilities around OpenStack, which I think is fantastic. >> No and it helps a lot with the verticalization of that, right, 'cause every industry has slightly different things they need. The thing I that would add to that, in terms of do-it-yourself community versus a dis-ter that's supported from someone like Red Hat, is it really comes down to core competency. And so even though OpenStack has become vastly simplified from a day one, day two, ongoing management, it is still a complex project. I mean that's the power of it, it can be highly customizable, right, it is an incredibly powerful infrastructure capability and so for most people their core competency is not that, and they need that support at least initially to get it going. What we have done is a couple things. I've actually talked to customers a lot about doing that training earlier and it's for a couple reasons, one is so that they actually have the people in house that have that competency but, two, you're giving infrastructure folks a chance to be part of that future cool stuff, right? I mean, OpenStack's written in Python and there's other languages that are newer and sexier, I guess, but it's still kind of moving them towards that future and for a lot of guys that have been in the data center and the ops world for a long time, they're looking out there at developers and going, I'm not the cool kid anymore, right? So OpenStack actually is a little bit of a window, not just to help companies go through that digital transformation, but actually help your ops personnel get a taste of that future and be part of that transformation instead of being stuck in just mainframe land or whatever, so training them early in the process is a really powerful way to do a lot of things. You know, skillset, retention, as well as then you can manage more of that yourself. >> And then all the way up to Stack, right? I mean, we're talking about containers, and then there's containers but then there's container data storage, container data networking. I mean, you've got the rest of the pieces in that, in Open Shift, in the rest. >> Absolutely. >> That is correct. >> And I think, John, you were at Red Hat Summit, we had a number of different innovation award winners. So I think one good example of kind of this kind of transformation from a digital transformation perspective, but also kind of leveraging a lot of what our Stack has to offer is Cafe Pacific. And so we talked about Cafe, they were one of our innovation award winners and what their challenge really was is how do they create a new modern infrastructure that gave them more flexibility so they could be more responsive to their customers. >> Yeah. >> In the airline industry. And so what they were really looking for was really, truly a hybrid cloud solution. They wanted to be able to have some things run in their infrastructure, have some things run in the public cloud, and we worked with them over the last, little over a year now, Red Hat consulting, Red Hat training, the Red Hat engineering team, in really building a solution that leverage OpenStack, yes, but also a number of other capabilities in the Red Hat portfolio, Open Shift, so they can deploy these applications, containerized applications now both to the public cloud as well as to the private cloud, but also automation through Ansible, which we're hearing a lot about Ansible and products like Ansible here at the conference-- >> Well the Open Stock and Ansible communities are starting to really work well together, just like Kubernetes, you've got a lot of this collaboration happening at the project level not to mention when we actually productize it and take it to customers. >> Yeah, so it's been super super powerful and I think it's a good one where it really hit on what Margaret was saying, which was giving the guys in infrastructure an opportunity to be a part of this huge transformation that Cafe went through, 'cause they were a very very key part of it. >> Yeah. Well, I think we're seeing that also with the open innovation labs. So this is something, which is really an innovation incubation process, it's agile, scrum, whatever, and in those we're not just talking to the developers, we're actually combining developers, functional lines of business leaders, infrastructure, architects, who all come together in a very typical six week kind of agile methodology and what comes out of that, I don't know, I've seen it a couple times, it's magical is all I can say, but having those different perspectives and having those different people work together to innovate is so powerful and they all feel like they're moving that forward and you come out with pilots, and we've seen things where they come out with two apps at the end of six weeks or eight weeks, it's just incredible when they're all focused on that and you start to understand those different perspectives and to me that's open source culture, right? It's awesome. >> And, Margaret, I'd love to hear your perspective also on that hybrid cloud discussion because so many people look at OpenStack and be like, oh, that's private cloud. >> Margaret: Right. >> And, of course, every customer we talk to, they have a cloud strategy. And they're doing lots of SaaS, they've got public cloud, multiple, Red Hat, I know you play across all of them, big announcement with Microsoft last week, last year was Amazon big partnerships with, so is Kubernetes the story, or is Kubernetes a piece of the story, how do all these play together for customers? >> I think Kubernetes is one and so, especially when you look at the broader architectural level, OpenStack becomes obviously the private cloud and enables them to start to do things that are more cloud-native even in their own data center, or if it's hosted or management or more traditional infrastructure, but it really has to be fluid. And a lot of customers initially were saying that their strategy was cloud first, and they would say, "Oh, we're going to put "everything in the public cloud." And then you actually start going through the workloads, you start going through the cost, you start going through the data privacy, or whatever the criteria capabilities are, and that's just not practical, frankly. And so this hybrid reality with private cloud, traditional, and public is going to be the reality for a very very long time, if not forever. There's always going to be things that you want to have better control of. And so Kubernetes at the orchestration layer becomes really critical to be able to have that agility across all those environments, but you have other fabrics like that in your architecture too, we talked about Ansible, it allows you to have common automation and do those play books that you can use across all those different infrastructure, KVM, what's your virtualization fabric, and can KVM take you from traditional virtualization all through public cloud? The answer is yes. So we're going to see increasingly these kind of layers of the overall architecture that allows you to have that flexibility, that management that's still the consistency, which is what you need to keep your policies the same, your access controls, you security, your compliance, and your sanity, whereas before it was kind of Ad Hoc. People would be like, oh, we're just going to put this here, go to public cloud. We're going to do this here, and now people are finding standardizing on things like even Red Hat Enterprise Linux, that's my OS layer, and that allows me to easily do Linux containers in a secure way, et cetera, et cetera. So, doing hybrid cloud means both the agility but you got to have some consistency in order to have the security and control that you need. So it's a little bit different than what we were talking about a few years ago, even. >> And I think one of the things that we've learned in the services world is that we started this idea about 18 months ago, we called these journey adoption programs, which were really the fact that some of these transformations are big, they're not about a single project that's going to last four to six weeks, it's a journey that the customer's going to go on and so when we talk about hybrid cloud, we've actually created this adoption program which can really start with the customer in this whole discovery phase, really, what are you trying to accomplish from a business perspective then take them into a design phase, take them into a deployment phase, take them into an enablement phase, and then take them into a sustainment phase. And there's a number of different services that we'll do across consulting, training, even within Marco Bill Peters Organization, which is our customer experience and engagement organization, around what role a technical account manager can play and really help our customer in the operational phases. And so we've learned this from some of the very large deployments, like Verizon, where we've seen some very-- >> And it's cyclical, right? You can do that many times. >> We do. In fact, you absolutely do. And so we've created now a program, specifically, around hybrid clouded option to try and de-mistify it. >> Yeah. >> Because it is complex. >> Well, and the reality is, there's somewhere around 30% of organizations still do not actually have a clear cloud strategy. And we see that in our own research, our own experiences, but industry analysts come up with the exact same number. >> And Margaret, by the way, the other 70%, the ink still pretty-- >> Yeah. >> Still wet! (laughing) >> Yes, it is. I'll tell you, I love saying cloud first to people because they kind of giggle. It's like, yeah, that's our strategy but we know we don't really know what that means. >> Which cloud? >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> All the clouds. >> Exactly. >> Alright, well Margaret and John, want to give you a final word, key takeaways you want to have or anything new to the show that you want to point out? >> I would just say we are still in early days. I think sometimes we forget that we, both in the open source communities, in the industry for a long time, tend to be 10 years ahead of where most people are and so when you hear jokes about, oh, is OpenStack still viable or is everything doing this, it's like right now we only have a very small percentage of actual enterprise workloads in the cloud and so we need to just now get to the point where we're all getting mature in this and really start to help our customers and our partners and our communities take this to the next level and work on inter-operability, and ease of use, and management. We're so mature now in technology, now let's put the polish on it, so that the consumption and the utilization can really go to the next level. >> Yeah, and I'll play off what Margaret said. I think it's very very key. When I look at where we've had the biggest success, as defined by, in that discovery phase, the customer lays out for us, here's what our business objectives were, did we achieve those business objectives, it's all about figuring out how we can create the solution and integrate into their environment today. So Margaret said I think very very well which is we have to integrate into these other solutions and every one of these big customer deployments has some Red Hat software, but it also has some other software that we're integrating into because customers have investments. So it's not about rip and replace, it's about integrate, it's about leverage, it's about time to market, and that's what most of the customers I've talked to, they're very worried about time to value, and so that's what we're trying to focus in, I think as a whole company, around Red Hat. >> Margaret: Agree. >> Absolutely. Summed it up very well. John Alessio, Margaret Dawson, thanks so much for joining us again. >> Thanks again. >> For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, watch more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE.

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada. It's the CUBE. Coverage OpenStack Summit North American 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Stu: Welcome to SiliconANGLE Media's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018. This is the CUBE. We're on day two of three days of live coverage. I'm Stu Miniman here with my co-host, John Troyer. Beautiful city here in Vancouver. There's been a bunch of parties last night, community things going on and to help us kind of set the stage for day two happy to welcome back to the program Lisa-Marie Namphy whose an OpenStack ambassador and also now a developer advocate with Portworx. Lisa, great to see you. >> Lisa: Thank you, guys, always great to be here. >> Stu: So, you're wearing a new logo ?????? Why don't you bring us up to speed on some of the many hats you're wearing. >> Lisa: Yeah, I joined the team at Portworx a few months back, super exciting, cognitive storage. If you want to run safe provocations like databases and containers, that's where Portworx comes in. So, it's a great space and as you know I've been in the cognitive space for a long time so I'm very happy to join the team of Portworx. >> Stu: I love, there's the open dev stuff going on here at the show. There was a keynote this morning, Forrest did a nice job of it. We'll actually have Immam on the CUBE tomorrow to talk some more about this, but you're at that nice intersection of how the developers fit into this, containers has been a hot discussion here for a few years, that whole cloud-native term that you've brought up, what is that mean to the OpenStack community, give us your level set as to what you see happening here in the OpenStack and beyond. >> Lisa: Yes, as you intimated I am still the tech ambassador for North America and have been for a long time, so I have seen this change coming, this progression, super-exciting at this conference how they've embraced those technologies that have been part of the story, but they really embraced at a very serious way as you saw from the keynotes yesterday. All the other technologies like works being done around containers, like Edge, ioT, all these wonderful stories that are getting showcased at this conference and customers and partners and communities coming together and working together, I think that's the most exciting part. >> John: Well, Lisa you run the meetup formally known as the Bay Area OpenStack meetup which just changed it name. Can you talk a little bit about that? >> Lisa: Yeah, well we just thought that, after looking at our schedule, and over the last two years I think that I've run 18 meetups on Kubernetes and Docker and Mesos and I just felt like networking and storage and all of the stuff we showcased I would keep. We didn't feel like the name was really reflective of the content that we were delivering and Cloud-native and Open-infrastructure is more of a broad term and that's the content that we've been delivering, and that's what the community has been wanting to talk about and wanting to come together over. So I changed the name. >> John: You guys have had great success, right? It's one of the biggest, or one of the biggest, meetup in this space. >> Lisa: It is, yeah, it's the world's largest ever tech issue group. We have over 6,000 members. >> John: People show up >> Lisa: They do. >> John: I've been to meetings. >> Lisa: A nice note to everybody, I didn't want anyone to panic, we still love OpenStack, and remember, OpenStack is a foundation of this, it was the first OpenStack meetup, but OpenStack is at the core of all of this technology, so it's built on OpenStack OpenStack's inside and so it's open infrastructure's a better, more encompassing title. >> Stu: I think that's great, we actually in some of the interviews we did yesterday, we had a COB provider from Australia and you go look around their website and it's not like they're saying, "Hey, OpenStack" all over the place, they're infrastructure and service for government and when you dig down underneath, what do you know, there's OpenStack there. Talk to a number of software companies that, when you dig into their IP, it's like "Oh, okay, we're using one of these projects from OpenStack." So, the premise I had had a few years ago is we know Opensource is a bunch of tools out there and it's not necessarily just like Linux permeated throughout the data center, OpenStack has that opportunity to that next generation of helping us to build everything from structure to service to all of these software products that are inside. >> Lisa: Absolutely and we saw during all those keynotes yesterday all the different projects when they did show what was being shown as the demo, all these projects coming together, maybe only two of them, that an OpenStack project, it's all of these communities coming together, working together, and it's kind of changed because everything's been focusing on business problems and this, I think, is the biggest shift that this shows. You know, these user communities not being so focused on the project that they're working on, but really focusing on use cases and trying to solve those problems, and now, I haven't said this to Lauren and Jonathan, I feel like when they pull the design from it out, I think that went a long way to taking away the project focus, because when you have a design summit and everyone runs off into their rooms to talk about cinder or nova or whatever it was they argue about the next release, that has all been removed and now its happening elsewhere and it really let the community come together and work together and bring all the technologies together. >> Stu: What do you, the conference in general, what's the vibe here? Obviously, we're in a beautiful place, everyone's really kind of stunned by the mountains everyone, not the first time though OpenStack Summit's been here in Vancouver, but what's the vibe, what's the feeling? >> Lisa: Yeah, it's so great to be back here. Congratulations on the trained whales that you've got for the free tram behind us. Vancouver, I mean, yeah Canada. It's just everyone's been so nice, so wonderful, it's so beautiful, wow, extremely happy to be back here. I think the Summit's been going great, you know. Non-dairy options at the coffee stations, I love that, too. They've thought of everything, the marketplace was booming last night, we had a little ambassador stand where people could come up and do a meet and greet and I was like pilled that there was so many people coming by for the whole hour. The energy has been wonderful and everybody feels involved. You know, this is a very communal feeling to this Summit. >> Stu: Great, to tell us about Portworx, give us the update there, how that fits into what's happening at the show. You've been lost in shows lately, you've got more coming up in the next month. >> Lisa: Absolutely, I mean, people just think okay it's an OpenStack summit, is it really going to be relevant? I have so many customers here, it's been fantastic to catch up with people and Portworx, it's a startup out of Spokane Valley, based in Los Altos and we have almost a hundred customers now and it's live in production, running Kubernetes in production and the problem with when you wanted to run those fateful applications, people think of containers as stateless traditionally, particularly Kubernetes, but what are you going to do with the data, right? The database is still super important so whether it's Postscript or MySequal or Kassberg or Santros, those fateful applications are really important and not the problem that Portworx solves. It's a cognitive storage company, but it's really beyond that, things you would expect from traditional VM, high availability, things like that, we can solve those problems if you want to run Postscript in a container. We worked really closely with Nasos, say resallas, the Kubernetes team with Docker. We'll be at DockerCon, the other, next week, and so we are actually doing the next meetup in the San Francisco Bay area. The first one we're going to bring all of these group together, we're doing it in conjunctions with our french and code press who run the production ready container, used to be container 101 meetup, so we're going to get together with them and with our Cloud-native open-infra user group. So, we're going to a meetup on June 6th, so I hope you guys come? >> John: Great, so I mean you said there's a lot of, going back to the conflict of business users, you know, folks who actually need to get stuff done, anything you're looking at in a conference in terms of the news, the clean release is out, so in terms of technologies, you're hearing about, talked about, buzz, the VTBU stuff, I don't know all what different, I know there's a lot of other storage news coming out this week, but anything that you guys are hearing in the air? >> Lisa: I mean, around again the adjacent technologies, CASA containers, a big focus here, and I hope that they're going to be a big focus, I hope I can finally run the first ever robotic containment meetup. We're going to have them do a hands-on lab at our OpenStack birthday party event on the "8th" I put that in quotes because it's a half-day hands-on lab training, it's sorry the 10th, July 10th, we want to focus on product containers, we want to focus on some of the new technology, Akrana, you heard me mention that yesterday. That's coming out, Edge, so Edge technology is huge, Vast was on stage again, right, talking about what they are doing, OpenDev as a subtrack of this constant or however they say that, it's super exciting. I think Boris Sunstach this morning, Boris is a sponsor Lawrence was a sponsor of that and I think the OpenDev community is really, it's bringing kind of of the developers and technology back into the fold and having this kind of of un-conference or sub-conference going on as a track, which is fantastic. I'm speaking tomorrow on the container track, container info-structure track, so super-excited about that it's also a track, but that's what I loved about this conference, about how they're really focusing on these kind of new and up-and-coming areas that are super hot. >> Stu: Lisa-Marie Namphy, really appreciate you helping us kick off day two coverage, so much these blendings of these communities helping the users put together the overall solution to get done what they need to get done. >> Lisa: Yeah, Bob Obasek of that foundation they've done a fantastic job, the energy of this summit has been fantastic. >> Stu: We've got a full lineup today, we've got practitioners, we've got the ecosystem, and for John Troyer I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching the CUBE.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada. It's The Cube covering Openstack Summit, North America, 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Open Stack Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of Openstack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with cohost of the week, John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program Stephan Fabel, who is the Director of Ubuntu product and development at Canonical. Great to see you. >> Yeah, great to be here, thank you for having me. Alright, so, boy, there's so much going on at this show. We've been talking about doing more things and in more places, is the theme that the Open Stack Foundation put into place, and we had a great conversation with Mark Shuttleworth, and going to dig in a little bit deeper in some of the areas with you. >> Stephan: Okay, absolutely. >> So we have the Cube, and we're go into all of the Kubernetes, Kubeflow, and all those other things that we'll mispronounce how they go. >> Stephan: Yes, yes, absolutely. >> What's your impression of the show first of all? >> Well I think that it's really, you know, there's a consolidation going on, right? I mean, we really have the people who are serious about open infrastructure here, serious about OpenStack. They're serious about Kubenetes. They want to implement, and they want to implement at a speed that fits the agility of their business. They want to really move quick with the obstrain release. I think the time for enterprise hardening delays an inertia there is over. I think people are really looking at the core of OpenStack, that's mature, it's stable, it's time for us to kind of move, get going, get success early, get it soon, then grow. I think most of the enterprise, most of the customers we talk to adopt that notion. >> One of the things that sometimes helps is help us lay out the stack a little bit here because we actually commented that some of the base infrastructure pieces we're not talking as much about because they're kind of mature, but OpenStack very much at the infrastructure level, your compute, storage, and network need to understand. But then we when we start doing things like Kubernetes as well, I can either do or, or on top of, and things like that, so give us your view as to what'd you put, what Canonical's seeing, and what customers-- how you lay out that stack? >> I think you're right, I think there's a little bit of path-finding here that needs to be done on the Kubernetes side, but ultimately, I think it's going to really converge around OpenStack being operative-centric, and operative-friendly, working and operating the infrastructure, scaling that out in a meaningful manner, providing multitenancy to all the different departments. Having Kubernetes be developer-centric and really help to on-board and accelerate the workload that option of the next gen initiatives, right? So, what we see is absolutely a use case for Kubernetes and OpenStack to work perfectly well together, be an extension of each other, possibly also sit next to each other without being too incumbenent there. But I think that ultimately having something like Kubernetes contain a based developer APIs that are providing that orchestration layer are the next thing, and they run just perfectly fine on Canonical OpenStack. >> Yeah, there certainly has been a lot of talk about that here at the show. Let's see, let's go a level above that, things we run on Kubernetes, I wanted to talk a little bit about ML and AI and Kubeflow. It seems like we're, I'd almost say that we're, this is like, if we were a movie, we're in a sequel like AI-5; this time, it's real. I really do see real enterprise applications incorporating these technologies into the workflow for what otherwise might be kind of boring, you know, line of business, can you talk a little bit about where we are in this evolution? >> You mean, John, only since we've been talking about it since the mid-1800s, so yeah. >> I was just about to point that out, I mean, AI's not new, right? We've seen it since about 60 years. It's been around for quite some time. I think that there is an unprecedented amount of sponsorship of new startups in this area, in this space, and there's a reason why this is heating up. I think the reason why ultimately it's there is because we're talking about a scale that's unprecedented, right? We thought the biggest problem we had with devices was going to be the IP addresses running out, and it turns out, that's not true at all, right? At a certain scale, and at a certain distributed nature of your rollout, you're going to have to deal with just such complexity and interaction between the underlying, the under-cloud, the over-cloud, the infrastructure, the developers. How do I roll this out? If I spin up 1000 BMs over here, why am I experiencing dropped calls over there? It's those types of things that need to be self-correlated. They need to be identified, they need to be worked out, so there's a whole operator angle just to be able to cope with that whole scenario. I think there's projects that are out there that are trying to ultimately address that, for example, Acumos (mumbles) Then, there is, of course, the new applications, right? Smart cities to connect to cars, all those car manufacturers who are, right now, faced with the problem: how do I deal with mobile, distributed inference rollout on the edge while still capturing the data continually, train my model, update, then again, distribute out to the edge to get a better experience. How do I catch up to some of the market leaders here that are out there? As the established car manufacturers are going to come and catch up, put more and more miles autonomously on the asphalt, we're going to basically have to deal with a whole lot more of proctization of machine-learning applications that just have to be managed at scale. And so we believe for all certain good company in that belief that having to manage large applications at scale, that containers and Kubernetes is a great way to do that, right? They did that for web apps. They did that for the next generation applications. This is one example where with the right operators in mind, the right CRDs, the right frameworks on top of Kubernetes managed correctly, you are actually in a great position to just go to market with that. >> I wonder if you might have a customer example that might go to walk us through kind of where they are in this discussion, talk to many companies, you know, the whole IOT even pieces were early in this. So what's actually real today, how much is planning, is this years we're talking before some of these really come to fruition? >> So yeah, I can't name a customer, but I can say that every single car manufacturer we're talking to is absolutely interested in solving the operational problem of running machine-learning frameworks as a service, making sure those are up running and up to speed at any given point in time, spin them up in a multitenant fashion, make sure that the GPU enablement is actually done properly at all layers of the virtualization. These are real operational challenges that they're facing today, and they're looking to solve with us. Pick a large car manufacturer you want. >> John: Nice. We're going down to something that I can type on my own keyboard then, and go to GitHub, right? That's one of the places to go where it is run, TensorFlow of machine-learning framework on Kubernetes is Kubeflow, and that little bit yesterday on stage, you want to talk about that maybe? >> Oh, absolutely, yes. That's the core of our current strategy right now. We're looking at Kubeflow as one of the key enablers of machine-learning frameworks as a service on top of Kubernetes, and I think they're a great example because they can really show how that as a service can be implemented on top of a virtualization platform, whether that be KVM, pure KVM, on bare metal, on OpenStack, and actually provide machine-learning frameworks such as TensorFlow, Pipe Torch, Seldon Core. You have all those frameworks being supported, and then basically start mix and matching. I think ultimately it's so interesting to us because the data scientists are really not the ones that are expected to manage all this, right? Yet they are the core of having to interact with it. In the next generation of the workloads, we're talking to PHDs and data scientists that have no interest whatsoever in understanding how all of this works on the back end, right? They just want to know this is where I'm going to submit my artifact that I'm creating, this is how it works in general. Companies pay them a lot of money to do just that, and to just do the model because that's where, until the right model is found, that is exactly where the value is. >> So Stephan, does Canonical go talk to the data scientists, or is there a class of operators who are facilitating the data scientists? >> Yes, we talk to the data scientists who understand their problems, we talk to the operators to understand their problems, and then we work with partners such as Google to try and find solutions to that. >> Great, what kind of conversations are you having here at the show? I can't imagine there's too many of those, great to hear if there are, but where are they? I think everybody here knows containers, very few know Kubernetes, and how far up the stack of building new stuff are they? >> You'd be surprised, I mean, we put this out there, and so far, I want to say the majority of the customer conversations we've had took an AI turn and said, this is what we're trying to do next year, this is what we're trying to do later in the year, this is what we're currently struggling with. So glad you have an approach because otherwise, we would spend a ton of time thinking about this, a ton of time trying to solve this in our own way that then gets us stuck in some deep end that we don't want to be. So, help us understand this, help us pave the way. >> John: Nice, nice. I don't want to leave without talking also about Microcades, that's a Kubernetes snap, you code some clojure download, Can we talk a little bit about that? >> Yeah, glad to. This was an idea that we conceived that came out of this notion of alright, well if I do have, talking to a data scientist, if I do have a data scientist, where does he start? >> Stu: Does Kubernetes have a learning curve to date? >> It does, yeah, it does. So here's the thing, as a developer, you have, what options do you have right when you get started? You can either go out and get a community stood up on one of the public clouds, but what if you're in the plane, right? You don't have a connection, you want to work on your local laptop. Possibly, that laptop also has a GPU, and you're a data scientist and you want to try this out because you know you're going to submit this training job now to a (mumbles) that runs un-prem behind the firewall with a limited training set, right? This is the situation we're talking about. So ultimately, the motivation for creating Microcades was we want to make this very, very equivalent. Now you can deploy Kubeflow on top of Microcades today, and it'll run just fine. You get your TensorBoard, you have Jupyter notebook, and you can do your work, and you can do it in a fashion that will then be compatible to your on-prem and public machine-learning framework. So that was your original motivation for why we went down this road, but then we noticed you know what, this is actually a wider need. People are thinking about local Kubernetes in many different ways. There are a couple of solutions out there. They tend to be cumbersome, or more cumbersome than developers would like it. So we actually said, you know, maybe we should turn this into a more general purpose solution. So hence, Microcades. It works like a snap on your machine, you kick that off, you have Kubernetes API, and under 30 seconds or little longer if your download speed plays a factor here, you enable DNS and you're good to go. >> Stephan, I just want to give you the opportunity, is there anything in the Queens Release that your customers have been specifically waiting for or any other product announcements before we wrap? >> Sure, we're very excited about the Queens Release. We think Queens Release is one of the great examples of the maturity of the code base and really the knot towards the operator, and that, I think was the big challenge beyond the olden days of OpenStack where the operators took a long time for the operators to be heard, and to establish that conversation. We'd like to say and to see that OpenStack Queens has matured in that respect, and we like things like Octavia. We're very exciting about (mumbles) as a service, taking its own life and being treated as a first-class citizen. I think that it was a great decision of the community to get on that road. We're supporting as a part of our distribution. >> Alright, well, appreciate the update. Really fascinating to hear about all, you know, everybody's thinking about it and really starting to move on all the ML and AI stuff. Alright, for John Troyer, I'm Tru Miniman. Lots more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching The Cube. (upbeat music)

live from Vancouver Canada it's the cube OpenStack summit North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat the OpenStack foundation and its ecosystem partners welcome back I'm Stu minimun here at the OpenStack summit 2018 in Vancouver with my co-host John Troyer happy to welcome to the program a first-time guest Charles Ferlin who's the vice president of business development at nuage networks thanks for joining us thank you for having me all right so the OpenStack show we're always talking about the maturity of it where customers are going with it you're in business development so what one of the one of the things we were discussing from the keynote this morning is the telcos and the service providers and who's doing what and you know who makes up that environment so it gives us your free point what you're seeing as to you know where some of the real action is in this in this marketplace fair enough we've been talking about nav for example for many years as you know but I would say probably since the second half of 2016 that we've started to see some significant large deployment and the service provider service provider paying attention to building up a telco cloud to host their VN nav applications right so so really from the second half of 26 16 2017 we've seen massive deployments of OpenStack with a service provider and a lot of them to host applications to serve their branch office customers yeah that's that's an another motivation for them to deploy this yes so Charles you know we've talked to the 18 t Verizon you know Deutsche Telekom's up there all these big ones but I look at it and say is this an opportunity of 20 global you know you know you know telcos or is do we go down to some of the MSP CSPs however you want to call those service providers a regional one you know they're some of the regional ones that maybe aren't as much telcos or are they where's that line what do you see is kind of the TAM if you will for this space obviously the large service provider will have a piece there but we see a lot of regional customer consuming services from a local provider right they do have either for language reasons for regulation and in governance so we see a lot of them consuming services from a local service provider so an openstack sort of became the building block of these and if the infrastructure for the service provider yeah it's interesting we actually just had a infrastructure as a service company from Australia okay on and I said you know you look at their website it doesn't say OpenStack anywhere they provide cloud offerings so it's one of the things there's all these telcos and service fighters that use it but it's not like they're like we're your preferred distribution of OpenStack it's just part of the plumbing underneath the use cases that that are address buh-bye OpenStack and served by OpenStack really fits well and a lot of the telco space right now yeah so we've seen a lot of growth for virtual private cloud we see a lot of growth for a dynamically deploying application having application residing in the data center or moving closer to the users at the edge for example and these are sort of the use cases that nuage and OpenStack address pretty well well that's an interesting pivot point right I understand as an enterprise technologist why software-defined networking is important right it's important in your stack it's got to be important inside of an open OpenStack but can you talk a little bit about some of these use cases like I hadn't really thought about SD win and how that that really and what architectures and deployments would really kind of mean that they would need to deploy that with some and that's a good point because really NT as the win served as the catalyst for the service providers who start paying attention to deploying an NFV infrastructure before that there was an interest it was a motivation however SD wins be offered of dynamic flexible agile branch office connectivity that allows them to dynamically insert value-added services so yes as the one provided connectivity between the branch office but really where is the service provider are going after is offering Application Firewall DDoS services or URL filtering in all of these applications residing in the data center and all of a sudden as I hold on I cannot have it as the one solution disjoint from my data center OpenStack deployment and this is where the nuage actually served as a connecting to both environment but also this is what served as a catalyst the sd1 deployment sort of a catalyst for for them to start deploying a dynamic infrastructure in today's yes so Charles just on the SD way in piece itself we've seen a lot of activity that bunch of acquisitions in that market what what differentiates nuage in in this space well fair enough we've seen these acquisition as a complement to the strategy that we have taken over the past five years paying off we are from the get-go started to have an end-to-end as the in solution so it's not just about connecting branch office together it's not about just connecting application in the data center it's actually connecting the users in the branch office with the applications in the data center or in the public cloud and what differentiate us the most is that we have the exact same platform the same as the n solution and 2n to connect branch office programming branch routers or programming virtual switches in the data center or bare metal physical service so that is perhaps new our single most biggest differentiator is the capability to have that single policy that singled as the n framework from the users and branch to the data center or public cloud alright you've mentioned bare metal I remember it was funny when the project came out for bare metal of course it's called ironic because most people can't win OpenStack started it was it's a good name in that it was virtualized environment of course today we've got containers starting to go up the stack with kubernetes so we understand why bare metals there what are you seeing in that space and and what what kind of what do you hear from your customers so we we have a lot of traction with ironic actually it's ironic but we do and we did that actually in open Saxony in November we did a Coe presentation with Fujitsu who deployed our k5 infrastructure using nagy networks and ironic integration to roll out on top of that is flexible you can put a platform as a service they can do whatever they want on top of it but the bare amount of provisioning is somewhere we is a we have a couple of large accounts that they have deployed this globally yeah okay are you working with the cotta containers that they have here and whether you are not would love to hear kind of the security story when we talk things everything for bare metal in containers and what you're doing with OpenStack and that's that's perhaps the other the biggest differentiator we have is because we're able to have the single networking policies from a container to or programming the network of a container or a KVM VM or hyper-v or the we have the symbol their single as the end platform and we're able we see all the therefore we see all the traffic in the data pack and we're able to index this into a elasticsearch database right and and in creating an index and set a lot of users to create some thresholds and that is what is perhaps the newest thing at knowledge is the capability now to say hey once those thresholds or cross why don't we reprogram the network dynamically so near realtor in real near-real-time we're actually able to take an action to reprogram the network based on some live feed that's what can information that we're receiving from the the various element that we have program either in the branch office or in a container level okay so today cotta containers is not something you're involved with or I didn't quite that cotta containers from the new high-level project from the the OpenStack foundation I don't know right now but but your customers are using container technology docker and various others we have an integration with kubernetes so we provide CNI they're absolutely involved there and this is how a lot of our customers are using us right now and the customers we're talking about these would often be service providers is that is that correct in the context of containers and kubernetes it would mainly be on the enterprise okay out of an agile type of development where they want to have a there's a lot of developer and they want to have the networking program and the same life cycle as the application project is rolling out and having the micro segmentation meaning that we are able to isolate each one of the project from one another so in if one gets contaminated the other one doesn't and so this is where a lot of the kubernetes and deployment has been on the on the large enterprise okay that makes sense because I'm trying to as a as a person outside the telecom industry but but following kind of the enterprise and OpenStack it's interesting to see this vision of the service providers who are not dumb pipes certainly but through OpenStack and these these the nfe and the services they are able to provision with folks like nuage you know able to provide services so just trying to figure out where the line you know maybe you could draw us a picture of you know what what the modern service provider will be able to provide versus what's still left then for the at the enterprise level depending on which market size analysis analyst you're looking at you know is depends VPN connectivity will be it it varies between two to six to eight to twelve it's a relatively contained small market compared to the applicator to manage applications right manage security that's tenfold that that market race so really as you said the the objective here if the service provider is not to to become a dumb virtual pipe and the ability to dynamically insert some value-added services over the top and this is what having an agile as the when now gives them the capability to say hold on a second I can now start serving a value-added application because my dynamic network is available now and this is this is what is fueling a lot of the OpenStack deployment right now in the datacenter yeah Charles one of discussions we've been looking at the last couple of years is there's OpenStack and then there's containers and kubernetes everything how do you see those go together what are you hearing from customers general discussion here but I'd love to hear some real-world so yeah in the context of ironic as we just mentioned a lot of the time the bare metal servers are actually deployed using OpenStack and what goes on top of it is actually kubernetes right and this is very common and it gives that isolation or its deploying a virtual machine running a pass platform in there right so so actually we do see the OpenStack to be used often to deploy the the infrastructure and program and provision I should say the infrastructure and whatever goes on top it could be kubernetes and work just a very nicely Charles you've been involved with OpenStack for many years I had this is how many OpenStack summits well probably eight and a weight or more yeah how are you seeing the OpenStack community evolved what do you I know you've just arrived which day one here at this summit you know beautiful Vancouver but in terms of the energy of the community the the people who are here it's a little bit smaller this year but it you know we've got people here are actual users and actual deployers so exactly yeah thoughts there so this is perhaps the well we went through a marketing height which is great however what I would say regardless of the event today in general the OpenStack community is a lot more mature it's a lot more stable as well and in the product and the product the technology at the community is more focused around solving real use cases and real problem couple years ago there was a lot of interest a lot of hype you know but it would have solve world world hunger as well right now I think it's very pointed very precise and I'm actually new I was quite proud to be participating in contributing in that community because we're starting to see the technology really addressing key key problems here all right Charles last thing I wanted to ask is the network sits in a very special place when you talk about really the multi cloud world that customers are talking about what are you seeing when it comes to that environment you know how do customers figure out where they put their applications are they moving you know things or is it just kind of a heterogeneous but still complicated world they're still figuring out that's right I mean that it's a very dynamic environment but I would say if I had to draw a conclusion most of the customers are deploying the application on-premise they like to have either for storage either for some of the governance they do I like to have applications on-premise however the multi cloud scenario is often used in large banks to compute or a large organization to compute on a burst capability right the capability to say hey I need to have X compute power available for X time is very appealing for them and this is how most of the deployment of nuage are used right now is having doing the plumbing the virtual plumbing inside a data center and dynamically based on demand the capability to do the same networking policy the same networking extension to one of the public cloud offering is very appealing because it sporadic it's a burst type of scenario yeah especially a lot of those service providers have that direct ability right as well correct correct and it you're right that it can become a little bit complex when you have when you want to to deploy nets with the same that's working policies across on-premise and multiple cloud provider and if you have interim service provider then it becomes a little bit complicated to have to orchestrate all of it and this is where Sdn gives them that hardware abstraction and and maintain the same networking policy well Charles Berlin appreciate the update on nuage and all of your viewpoints from from the customers that you're seeing my pleasure very very much for John Troyer I'm Stu Mittleman back with more coverage here at the open sex I'm at 2018 in Vancouver thanks for watching the Q [Music]