(light upbeat music) >> Hey, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's day long coverage of Women in Data Science 2023. Live from Stanford University, I'm Lisa Martin. We've had some amazing conversations today with my wonderful co-host, as you've seen. Tracy Zhang joins me next for a very interesting and inspiring conversation. I know we've been bringing them to you, we're bringing you another one here. Dr. Irene Dankwa-Mullan joins us, the Chief Medical Officer at Marti Health, and a speaker at WIDS. Welcome, Irene, it's great to have you. >> Thank you. I'm delighted to be here. Thank you so much for this opportunity. >> So you have an MD and a Master of Public Health. Covid must have been an interesting time for you, with an MPH? >> Very much so. >> Yeah, talk a little bit about you, your background, and Marti Health? This is interesting. This is a brand new startup. This is a digital health equity startup. >> Yes, yes. So, I'll start with my story a little bit about myself. So I was actually born in Ghana. I finished high school there and came here for college. What would I say? After I finished my undergraduate, I went to medical school at Dartmouth and I always knew I wanted to go into public health as well as medicine. So my medical education was actually five years. I did the MPH and my medical degree, at the same time, I got my MPH from Yale School of Public Health. And after I finished, I trained in internal medicine, Johns Hopkins, and after that I went into public health. I am currently living in Maryland, so I'm in Bethesda, Maryland, and that's where I've been. And really enjoyed public health, community health, combining that aspect of sort of prevention and wellness and also working in making sure that we have community health clinics and safety net clinics. So a great experience there. I also had the privilege, after eight years in public health, I went to the National Institute of Health. >> Oh, wow. >> Where I basically worked in clinical research, basically on minority health and health disparities. So, I was in various leadership roles and helped to advance the science of health equity, working in collaboration with a lot of scientists and researchers at the NIH, really to advance the science. >> Where did your interest in health equity come from? Was there a defining moment when you were younger and you thought "There's a lot of inequities here, we have to do something about this." Where did that interest start? >> That's a great question. I think this influence was basically maybe from my upbringing as well as my family and also what I saw around me in Ghana, a lot of preventable diseases. I always say that my grandfather on my father's side was a great influence, inspired me and influenced my career because he was the only sibling, really, that went to school. And as a result, he was able to earn enough money and built, you know, a hospital. >> Oh wow. >> In their hometown. >> Oh my gosh! >> It started as a 20 bed hospital and now it's a 350 bed hospital. >> Oh, wow, that's amazing! >> In our hometown. And he knew that education was important and vital as well for wellbeing. And so he really inspired, you know, his work inspired me. And I remember in residency I went with a group of residents to this hospital in Ghana just to help over a summer break. So during a summer where we went and helped take care of the sick patients and actually learned, right? What it is like to care for so many patients and- >> Yeah. >> It was really a humbling experience. But that really inspired me. I think also being in this country. And when I came to the U.S. and really saw firsthand how patients are treated differently, based on their background or socioeconomic status. I did see firsthand, you know, that kind of unconscious bias. And, you know, drew me to the field of health disparities research and wanted to learn more and do more and contribute. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I was curious. Just when did the data science aspect tap in? Like when did you decide that, okay, data science is going to be a problem solving tool to like all the problems you just said? >> Yeah, that's a good question. So while I was at the NIH, I spent eight years there, and precision medicine was launched at that time and there was a lot of heightened interest in big data and how big data could help really revolutionize medicine and healthcare. And I got the opportunity to go, you know, there was an opportunity where they were looking for physicians or deputy chief health officer at IBM. And so I went to IBM, Watson Health was being formed as a new business unit, and I was one of the first deputy chief health officers really to lead the data and the science evidence. And that's where I realized, you know, we could really, you know, the technology in healthcare, there's been a lot of data that I think we are not really using or optimizing to make sure that we're taking care of our patients. >> Yeah. >> And so that's how I got into data science and making sure that we are building technologies using the right data to advance health equity. >> Right, so talk a little bit about health equity? We mentioned you're with Marti Health. You've been there for a short time, but Marti Health is also quite new, just a few months old. Digital health equity, talk about what Marti's vision is, what its mission is to really help start dialing down a lot of the disparities that you talked about that you see every day? >> Yeah, so, I've been so privileged. I recently joined Marti Health as their Chief Medical Officer, Chief Health Officer. It's a startup that is actually trying to promote a value-based care, also promote patient-centered care for patients that are experiencing a social disadvantage as a result of their race, ethnicity. And were starting to look at and focused on patients that have sickle cell disease. >> Okay. >> Because we realize that that's a population, you know, we know sickle cell disease is a genetic disorder. It impacts a lot of patients that are from areas that are endemic malaria. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And most of our patients here are African American, and when, you know, they suffer so much stigma and discrimination in the healthcare system and complications from their sickle cell disease. And so what we want to do that we feel like sickle cell is a litmus test for disparities. And we want to make sure that they get in patient-centered care. We want to make sure that we are leveraging data and the research that we've done in sickle cell disease, especially on the continent of Africa. >> Okay. >> And provide, promote better quality care for the patients. >> That's so inspiring. You know, we've heard so many great stories today. Were you able to watch the keynote this morning? >> Yes. >> I loved how it always inspires me. This conference is always, we were talking about this all day, how you walk in the Arrillaga Alumni Center here where this event is held every year, the vibe is powerful, it's positive, it's encouraging. >> Inspiring, yeah. >> Absolutely. >> Inspiring. >> Yeah, yeah. >> It's a movement, WIDS is a movement. They've created this community where you feel, I don't know, kind of superhuman. "Why can't I do this? Why not me?" We heard some great stories this morning about data science in terms of applications. You have a great application in terms of health equity. We heard about it in police violence. >> Yes. >> Which is an epidemic in this country for sure, as we know. This happens too often. How can we use data and data science as a facilitator of learning more about that, so that that can stop? I think that's so important for more people to understand all of the broad applications of data science, whether it's police violence or climate change or drug discovery or health inequities. >> Irene: Yeah. >> The potential, I think we're scratching the surface. But the potential is massive. >> Tracy: It is. >> And this is an event that really helps women and underrepresented minorities think, "Why not me? Why can't I get involved in that?" >> Yeah, and I always say we use data to make an make a lot of decisions. And especially in healthcare, we want to be careful about how we are using data because this is impacting the health and outcomes of our patients. And so science evidence is really critical, you know? We want to make sure that data is inclusive and we have quality data. >> Yes. >> And it's transparent. Our clinical trials, I always say are not always diverse and inclusive. And if that's going to form the evidence base or data points then we're doing more harm than good for our patients. And so data science, it's huge. I mean, we need a robust, responsible, trustworthy data science agenda. >> "Trust" you just brought up "trust." >> Yeah. >> I did. >> When we talk about data, we can't not talk about security and privacy and ethics but trust is table stakes. We have to be able to evaluate the data and trust in it. >> Exactly. >> And what it says and the story that can be told from it. So that trust factor is, I think, foundational to data science. >> We all see what happened with Covid, right? I mean, when the pandemic came out- >> Absolutely. >> Everyone wanted information. We wanted data, we wanted data we could trust. There was a lot of hesitancy even with the vaccine. >> Yeah. >> Right? And so public health, I mean, like you said, we had to do a lot of work making sure that the right information from the right data was being translated or conveyed to the communities. And so you are totally right. I mean, data and good information, relevant data is always key. >> Well- >> Is there any- Oh, sorry. >> Go ahead. >> Is there anything Marti Health is doing in like ensuring that you guys get the right data that you can put trust in it? >> Yes, absolutely. And so this is where we are, you know, part of it would be getting data, real world evidence data for patients who are being seen in the healthcare system with sickle cell disease, so that we can personalize the data to those patients and provide them with the right treatment, the right intervention that they need. And so part of it would be doing predictive modeling on some of the data, risk, stratifying risk, who in the sickle cell patient population is at risk of progressing. Or getting, you know, they all often get crisis, vaso-occlusive crisis because the cells, you know, the blood cell sickles and you want to avoid those chest crisis. And so part of what we'll be doing is, you know, using predictive modeling to target those at risk of the disease progressing, so that we can put in preventive measures. It's all about prevention. It's all about making sure that they're not being, you know, going to the hospital or the emergency room where sometimes they end up, you know, in pain and wanting pain medicine. And so. >> Do you see AI as being a critical piece in the transformation of healthcare, especially where inequities are concerned? >> Absolutely, and and when you say AI, I think it's responsible AI. >> Yes. >> And making sure that it's- >> Tracy: That's such a good point. >> Yeah. >> Very. >> With the right data, with relevant data, it's definitely key. I think there is so much data points that healthcare has, you know, in the healthcare space there's fiscal data, biological data, there's environmental data and we are not using it to the full capacity and full potential. >> Tracy: Yeah. >> And I think AI can do that if we do it carefully, and like I said, responsibly. >> That's a key word. You talked about trust, responsibility. Where data science, AI is concerned- >> Yeah. >> It has to be not an afterthought, it has to be intentional. >> Tracy: Exactly. >> And there needs to be a lot of education around it. Most people think, "Oh, AI is just for the technology," you know? >> Yeah, right. >> Goop. >> Yes. >> But I think we're all part, I mean everyone needs to make sure that we are collecting the right amount of data. I mean, I think we all play a part, right? >> We do. >> We do. >> In making sure that we have responsible AI, we have, you know, good data, quality data. And the data sciences is a multi-disciplinary field, I think. >> It is, which is one of the things that's exciting about it is it is multi-disciplinary. >> Tracy: Exactly. >> And so many of the people that we've talked to in data science have these very non-linear paths to get there, and so I think they bring such diversity of thought and backgrounds and experiences and thoughts and voices. That helps train the AI models with data that's more inclusive. >> Irene: Yes. >> Dropping down the volume on the bias that we know is there. To be successful, it has to. >> Definitely, I totally agree. >> What are some of the things, as we wrap up here, that you're looking forward to accomplishing as part of Marti Health? Like, maybe what's on the roadmap that you can share with us for Marti as it approaches the the second half of its first year? >> Yes, it's all about promoting health equity. It's all about, I mean, there's so much, well, I would start with, you know, part of the healthcare transformation is making sure that we are promoting care that's based on value and not volume, care that's based on good health outcomes, quality health outcomes, and not just on, you know, the quantity. And so Marti Health is trying to promote that value-based care. We are envisioning a world in which everyone can live their full life potential. Have the best health outcomes, and provide that patient-centered precision care. >> And we all want that. We all want that. We expect that precision and that personalized experience in our consumer lives, why not in healthcare? Well, thank you, Irene, for joining us on the program today. >> Thank you. >> Talking about what you're doing to really help drive the volume up on health equity, and raise awareness for the fact that there's a lot of inequities in there we have to fix. We have a long way to go. >> We have, yes. >> Lisa: But people like you are making an impact and we appreciate you joining theCUBE today and sharing what you're doing, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you- >> Thank you for having me here. >> Oh, our pleasure. For our guest and Tracy Zhang, this is Lisa Martin from WIDS 2023, the eighth Annual Women in Data Science Conference brought to you by theCUBE. Stick around, our show wrap will be in just a minute. Thanks for watching. (light upbeat music)

(upbeat music beginning) >> From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the Cube and ETR, this is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Making predictions about the future of enterprise tech is more challenging if you strive to lay down forecasts that are measurable. In other words, if you make a prediction, you should be able to look back a year later and say, with some degree of certainty, whether the prediction came true or not, with evidence to back that up. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights, powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we aim to do just that, with predictions about the macro IT spending environment, cost optimization, security, lots to talk about there, generative AI, cloud, and of course supercloud, blockchain adoption, data platforms, including commentary on Databricks, snowflake, and other key players, automation, events, and we may even have some bonus predictions around quantum computing, and perhaps some other areas. To make all this happen, we welcome back, for the third year in a row, my colleague and friend Eric Bradley from ETR. Eric, thanks for all you do for the community, and thanks for being part of this program. Again. >> I wouldn't miss it for the world. I always enjoy this one. Dave, good to see you. >> Yeah, so let me bring up this next slide and show you, actually come back to me if you would. I got to show the audience this. These are the inbounds that we got from PR firms starting in October around predictions. They know we do prediction posts. And so they'll send literally thousands and thousands of predictions from hundreds of experts in the industry, technologists, consultants, et cetera. And if you bring up the slide I can show you sort of the pattern that developed here. 40% of these thousands of predictions were from cyber. You had AI and data. If you combine those, it's still not close to cyber. Cost optimization was a big thing. Of course, cloud, some on DevOps, and software. Digital... Digital transformation got, you know, some lip service and SaaS. And then there was other, it's kind of around 2%. So quite remarkable, when you think about the focus on cyber, Eric. >> Yeah, there's two reasons why I think it makes sense, though. One, the cybersecurity companies have a lot of cash, so therefore the PR firms might be working a little bit harder for them than some of their other clients. (laughs) And then secondly, as you know, for multiple years now, when we do our macro survey, we ask, "What's your number one spending priority?" And again, it's security. It just isn't going anywhere. It just stays at the top. So I'm actually not that surprised by that little pie chart there, but I was shocked that SaaS was only 5%. You know, going back 10 years ago, that would've been the only thing anyone was talking about. >> Yeah. So true. All right, let's get into it. First prediction, we always start with kind of tech spending. Number one is tech spending increases between four and 5%. ETR has currently got it at 4.6% coming into 2023. This has been a consistently downward trend all year. We started, you know, much, much higher as we've been reporting. Bottom line is the fed is still in control. They're going to ease up on tightening, is the expectation, they're going to shoot for a soft landing. But you know, my feeling is this slingshot economy is going to continue, and it's going to continue to confound, whether it's supply chains or spending. The, the interesting thing about the ETR data, Eric, and I want you to comment on this, the largest companies are the most aggressive to cut. They're laying off, smaller firms are spending faster. They're actually growing at a much larger, faster rate as are companies in EMEA. And that's a surprise. That's outpacing the US and APAC. Chime in on this, Eric. >> Yeah, I was surprised on all of that. First on the higher level spending, we are definitely seeing it coming down, but the interesting thing here is headlines are making it worse. The huge research shop recently said 0% growth. We're coming in at 4.6%. And just so everyone knows, this is not us guessing, we asked 1,525 IT decision-makers what their budget growth will be, and they came in at 4.6%. Now there's a huge disparity, as you mentioned. The Fortune 500, global 2000, barely at 2% growth, but small, it's at 7%. So we're at a situation right now where the smaller companies are still playing a little bit of catch up on digital transformation, and they're spending money. The largest companies that have the most to lose from a recession are being more trepidatious, obviously. So they're playing a "Wait and see." And I hope we don't talk ourselves into a recession. Certainly the headlines and some of their research shops are helping it along. But another interesting comment here is, you know, energy and utilities used to be called an orphan and widow stock group, right? They are spending more than anyone, more than financials insurance, more than retail consumer. So right now it's being driven by mid, small, and energy and utilities. They're all spending like gangbusters, like nothing's happening. And it's the rest of everyone else that's being very cautious. >> Yeah, so very unpredictable right now. All right, let's go to number two. Cost optimization remains a major theme in 2023. We've been reporting on this. You've, we've shown a chart here. What's the primary method that your organization plans to use? You asked this question of those individuals that cited that they were going to reduce their spend and- >> Mhm. >> consolidating redundant vendors, you know, still leads the way, you know, far behind, cloud optimization is second, but it, but cloud continues to outpace legacy on-prem spending, no doubt. Somebody, it was, the guy's name was Alexander Feiglstorfer from Storyblok, sent in a prediction, said "All in one becomes extinct." Now, generally I would say I disagree with that because, you know, as we know over the years, suites tend to win out over, you know, individual, you know, point products. But I think what's going to happen is all in one is going to remain the norm for these larger companies that are cutting back. They want to consolidate redundant vendors, and the smaller companies are going to stick with that best of breed and be more aggressive and try to compete more effectively. What's your take on that? >> Yeah, I'm seeing much more consolidation in vendors, but also consolidation in functionality. We're seeing people building out new functionality, whether it's, we're going to talk about this later, so I don't want to steal too much of our thunder right now, but data and security also, we're seeing a functionality creep. So I think there's further consolidation happening here. I think niche solutions are going to be less likely, and platform solutions are going to be more likely in a spending environment where you want to reduce your vendors. You want to have one bill to pay, not 10. Another thing on this slide, real quick if I can before I move on, is we had a bunch of people write in and some of the answer options that aren't on this graph but did get cited a lot, unfortunately, is the obvious reduction in staff, hiring freezes, and delaying hardware, were three of the top write-ins. And another one was offshore outsourcing. So in addition to what we're seeing here, there were a lot of write-in options, and I just thought it would be important to state that, but essentially the cost optimization is by and far the highest one, and it's growing. So it's actually increased in our citations over the last year. >> And yeah, specifically consolidating redundant vendors. And so I actually thank you for bringing that other up, 'cause I had asked you, Eric, is there any evidence that repatriation is going on and we don't see it in the numbers, we don't see it even in the other, there was, I think very little or no mention of cloud repatriation, even though it might be happening in this in a smattering. >> Not a single mention, not one single mention. I went through it for you. Yep. Not one write-in. >> All right, let's move on. Number three, security leads M&A in 2023. Now you might say, "Oh, well that's a layup," but let me set this up Eric, because I didn't really do a great job with the slide. I hid the, what you've done, because you basically took, this is from the emerging technology survey with 1,181 responses from November. And what we did is we took Palo Alto and looked at the overlap in Palo Alto Networks accounts with these vendors that were showing on this chart. And Eric, I'm going to ask you to explain why we put a circle around OneTrust, but let me just set it up, and then have you comment on the slide and take, give us more detail. We're seeing private company valuations are off, you know, 10 to 40%. We saw a sneak, do a down round, but pretty good actually only down 12%. We've seen much higher down rounds. Palo Alto Networks we think is going to get busy. Again, they're an inquisitive company, they've been sort of quiet lately, and we think CrowdStrike, Cisco, Microsoft, Zscaler, we're predicting all of those will make some acquisitions and we're thinking that the targets are somewhere in this mess of security taxonomy. Other thing we're predicting AI meets cyber big time in 2023, we're going to probably going to see some acquisitions of those companies that are leaning into AI. We've seen some of that with Palo Alto. And then, you know, your comment to me, Eric, was "The RSA conference is going to be insane, hopping mad, "crazy this April," (Eric laughing) but give us your take on this data, and why the red circle around OneTrust? Take us back to that slide if you would, Alex. >> Sure. There's a few things here. First, let me explain what we're looking at. So because we separate the public companies and the private companies into two separate surveys, this allows us the ability to cross-reference that data. So what we're doing here is in our public survey, the tesis, everyone who cited some spending with Palo Alto, meaning they're a Palo Alto customer, we then cross-reference that with the private tech companies. Who also are they spending with? So what you're seeing here is an overlap. These companies that we have circled are doing the best in Palo Alto's accounts. Now, Palo Alto went and bought Twistlock a few years ago, which this data slide predicted, to be quite honest. And so I don't know if they necessarily are going to go after Snyk. Snyk, sorry. They already have something in that space. What they do need, however, is more on the authentication space. So I'm looking at OneTrust, with a 45% overlap in their overall net sentiment. That is a company that's already existing in their accounts and could be very synergistic to them. BeyondTrust as well, authentication identity. This is something that Palo needs to do to move more down that zero trust path. Now why did I pick Palo first? Because usually they're very inquisitive. They've been a little quiet lately. Secondly, if you look at the backdrop in the markets, the IPO freeze isn't going to last forever. Sooner or later, the IPO markets are going to open up, and some of these private companies are going to tap into public equity. In the meantime, however, cash funding on the private side is drying up. If they need another round, they're not going to get it, and they're certainly not going to get it at the valuations they were getting. So we're seeing valuations maybe come down where they're a touch more attractive, and Palo knows this isn't going to last forever. Cisco knows that, CrowdStrike, Zscaler, all these companies that are trying to make a push to become that vendor that you're consolidating in, around, they have a chance now, they have a window where they need to go make some acquisitions. And that's why I believe leading up to RSA, we're going to see some movement. I think it's going to pretty, a really exciting time in security right now. >> Awesome. Thank you. Great explanation. All right, let's go on the next one. Number four is, it relates to security. Let's stay there. Zero trust moves from hype to reality in 2023. Now again, you might say, "Oh yeah, that's a layup." A lot of these inbounds that we got are very, you know, kind of self-serving, but we always try to put some meat in the bone. So first thing we do is we pull out some commentary from, Eric, your roundtable, your insights roundtable. And we have a CISO from a global hospitality firm says, "For me that's the highest priority." He's talking about zero trust because it's the best ROI, it's the most forward-looking, and it enables a lot of the business transformation activities that we want to do. CISOs tell me that they actually can drive forward transformation projects that have zero trust, and because they can accelerate them, because they don't have to go through the hurdle of, you know, getting, making sure that it's secure. Second comment, zero trust closes that last mile where once you're authenticated, they open up the resource to you in a zero trust way. That's a CISO of a, and a managing director of a cyber risk services enterprise. Your thoughts on this? >> I can be here all day, so I'm going to try to be quick on this one. This is not a fluff piece on this one. There's a couple of other reasons this is happening. One, the board finally gets it. Zero trust at first was just a marketing hype term. Now the board understands it, and that's why CISOs are able to push through it. And what they finally did was redefine what it means. Zero trust simply means moving away from hardware security, moving towards software-defined security, with authentication as its base. The board finally gets that, and now they understand that this is necessary and it's being moved forward. The other reason it's happening now is hybrid work is here to stay. We weren't really sure at first, large companies were still trying to push people back to the office, and it's going to happen. The pendulum will swing back, but hybrid work's not going anywhere. By basically on our own data, we're seeing that 69% of companies expect remote and hybrid to be permanent, with only 30% permanent in office. Zero trust works for a hybrid environment. So all of that is the reason why this is happening right now. And going back to our previous prediction, this is why we're picking Palo, this is why we're picking Zscaler to make these acquisitions. Palo Alto needs to be better on the authentication side, and so does Zscaler. They're both fantastic on zero trust network access, but they need the authentication software defined aspect, and that's why we think this is going to happen. One last thing, in that CISO round table, I also had somebody say, "Listen, Zscaler is incredible. "They're doing incredibly well pervading the enterprise, "but their pricing's getting a little high," and they actually think Palo Alto is well-suited to start taking some of that share, if Palo can make one move. >> Yeah, Palo Alto's consolidation story is very strong. Here's my question and challenge. Do you and me, so I'm always hardcore about, okay, you've got to have evidence. I want to look back at these things a year from now and say, "Did we get it right? Yes or no?" If we got it wrong, we'll tell you we got it wrong. So how are we going to measure this? I'd say a couple things, and you can chime in. One is just the number of vendors talking about it. That's, but the marketing always leads the reality. So the second part of that is we got to get evidence from the buying community. Can you help us with that? >> (laughs) Luckily, that's what I do. I have a data company that asks thousands of IT decision-makers what they're adopting and what they're increasing spend on, as well as what they're decreasing spend on and what they're replacing. So I have snapshots in time over the last 11 years where I can go ahead and compare and contrast whether this adoption is happening or not. So come back to me in 12 months and I'll let you know. >> Now, you know, I will. Okay, let's bring up the next one. Number five, generative AI hits where the Metaverse missed. Of course everybody's talking about ChatGPT, we just wrote last week in a breaking analysis with John Furrier and Sarjeet Joha our take on that. We think 2023 does mark a pivot point as natural language processing really infiltrates enterprise tech just as Amazon turned the data center into an API. We think going forward, you're going to be interacting with technology through natural language, through English commands or other, you know, foreign language commands, and investors are lining up, all the VCs are getting excited about creating something competitive to ChatGPT, according to (indistinct) a hundred million dollars gets you a seat at the table, gets you into the game. (laughing) That's before you have to start doing promotion. But he thinks that's what it takes to actually create a clone or something equivalent. We've seen stuff from, you know, the head of Facebook's, you know, AI saying, "Oh, it's really not that sophisticated, ChatGPT, "it's kind of like IBM Watson, it's great engineering, "but you know, we've got more advanced technology." We know Google's working on some really interesting stuff. But here's the thing. ETR just launched this survey for the February survey. It's in the field now. We circle open AI in this category. They weren't even in the survey, Eric, last quarter. So 52% of the ETR survey respondents indicated a positive sentiment toward open AI. I added up all the sort of different bars, we could double click on that. And then I got this inbound from Scott Stevenson of Deep Graham. He said "AI is recession-proof." I don't know if that's the case, but it's a good quote. So bring this back up and take us through this. Explain this chart for us, if you would. >> First of all, I like Scott's quote better than the Facebook one. I think that's some sour grapes. Meta just spent an insane amount of money on the Metaverse and that's a dud. Microsoft just spent money on open AI and it is hot, undoubtedly hot. We've only been in the field with our current ETS survey for a week. So my caveat is it's preliminary data, but I don't care if it's preliminary data. (laughing) We're getting a sneak peek here at what is the number one net sentiment and mindshare leader in the entire machine-learning AI sector within a week. It's beating Data- >> 600. 600 in. >> It's beating Databricks. And we all know Databricks is a huge established enterprise company, not only in machine-learning AI, but it's in the top 10 in the entire survey. We have over 400 vendors in this survey. It's number eight overall, already. In a week. This is not hype. This is real. And I could go on the NLP stuff for a while. Not only here are we seeing it in open AI and machine-learning and AI, but we're seeing NLP in security. It's huge in email security. It's completely transforming that area. It's one of the reasons I thought Palo might take Abnormal out. They're doing such a great job with NLP in this email side, and also in the data prep tools. NLP is going to take out data prep tools. If we have time, I'll discuss that later. But yeah, this is, to me this is a no-brainer, and we're already seeing it in the data. >> Yeah, John Furrier called, you know, the ChatGPT introduction. He said it reminded him of the Netscape moment, when we all first saw Netscape Navigator and went, "Wow, it really could be transformative." All right, number six, the cloud expands to supercloud as edge computing accelerates and CloudFlare is a big winner in 2023. We've reported obviously on cloud, multi-cloud, supercloud and CloudFlare, basically saying what multi-cloud should have been. We pulled this quote from Atif Kahn, who is the founder and CTO of Alkira, thanks, one of the inbounds, thank you. "In 2023, highly distributed IT environments "will become more the norm "as organizations increasingly deploy hybrid cloud, "multi-cloud and edge settings..." Eric, from one of your round tables, "If my sources from edge computing are coming "from the cloud, that means I have my workloads "running in the cloud. "There is no one better than CloudFlare," That's a senior director of IT architecture at a huge financial firm. And then your analysis shows CloudFlare really growing in pervasion, that sort of market presence in the dataset, dramatically, to near 20%, leading, I think you had told me that they're even ahead of Google Cloud in terms of momentum right now. >> That was probably the biggest shock to me in our January 2023 tesis, which covers the public companies in the cloud computing sector. CloudFlare has now overtaken GCP in overall spending, and I was shocked by that. It's already extremely pervasive in networking, of course, for the edge networking side, and also in security. This is the number one leader in SaaSi, web access firewall, DDoS, bot protection, by your definition of supercloud, which we just did a couple of weeks ago, and I really enjoyed that by the way Dave, I think CloudFlare is the one that fits your definition best, because it's bringing all of these aspects together, and most importantly, it's cloud agnostic. It does not need to rely on Azure or AWS to do this. It has its own cloud. So I just think it's, when we look at your definition of supercloud, CloudFlare is the poster child. >> You know, what's interesting about that too, is a lot of people are poo-pooing CloudFlare, "Ah, it's, you know, really kind of not that sophisticated." "You don't have as many tools," but to your point, you're can have those tools in the cloud, Cloudflare's doing serverless on steroids, trying to keep things really simple, doing a phenomenal job at, you know, various locations around the world. And they're definitely one to watch. Somebody put them on my radar (laughing) a while ago and said, "Dave, you got to do a breaking analysis on CloudFlare." And so I want to thank that person. I can't really name them, 'cause they work inside of a giant hyperscaler. But- (Eric laughing) (Dave chuckling) >> Real quickly, if I can from a competitive perspective too, who else is there? They've already taken share from Akamai, and Fastly is their really only other direct comp, and they're not there. And these guys are in poll position and they're the only game in town right now. I just, I don't see it slowing down. >> I thought one of your comments from your roundtable I was reading, one of the folks said, you know, CloudFlare, if my workloads are in the cloud, they are, you know, dominant, they said not as strong with on-prem. And so Akamai is doing better there. I'm like, "Okay, where would you want to be?" (laughing) >> Yeah, which one of those two would you rather be? >> Right? Anyway, all right, let's move on. Number seven, blockchain continues to look for a home in the enterprise, but devs will slowly begin to adopt in 2023. You know, blockchains have got a lot of buzz, obviously crypto is, you know, the killer app for blockchain. Senior IT architect in financial services from your, one of your insight roundtables said quote, "For enterprises to adopt a new technology, "there have to be proven turnkey solutions. "My experience in talking with my peers are, "blockchain is still an open-source component "where you have to build around it." Now I want to thank Ravi Mayuram, who's the CTO of Couchbase sent in, you know, one of the predictions, he said, "DevOps will adopt blockchain, specifically Ethereum." And he referenced actually in his email to me, Solidity, which is the programming language for Ethereum, "will be in every DevOps pro's playbook, "mirroring the boom in machine-learning. "Newer programming languages like Solidity "will enter the toolkits of devs." His point there, you know, Solidity for those of you don't know, you know, Bitcoin is not programmable. Solidity, you know, came out and that was their whole shtick, and they've been improving that, and so forth. But it, Eric, it's true, it really hasn't found its home despite, you know, the potential for smart contracts. IBM's pushing it, VMware has had announcements, and others, really hasn't found its way in the enterprise yet. >> Yeah, and I got to be honest, I don't think it's going to, either. So when we did our top trends series, this was basically chosen as an anti-prediction, I would guess, that it just continues to not gain hold. And the reason why was that first comment, right? It's very much a niche solution that requires a ton of custom work around it. You can't just plug and play it. And at the end of the day, let's be very real what this technology is, it's a database ledger, and we already have database ledgers in the enterprise. So why is this a priority to move to a different database ledger? It's going to be very niche cases. I like the CTO comment from Couchbase about it being adopted by DevOps. I agree with that, but it has to be a DevOps in a very specific use case, and a very sophisticated use case in financial services, most likely. And that's not across the entire enterprise. So I just think it's still going to struggle to get its foothold for a little bit longer, if ever. >> Great, thanks. Okay, let's move on. Number eight, AWS Databricks, Google Snowflake lead the data charge with Microsoft. Keeping it simple. So let's unpack this a little bit. This is the shared accounts peer position for, I pulled data platforms in for analytics, machine-learning and AI and database. So I could grab all these accounts or these vendors and see how they compare in those three sectors. Analytics, machine-learning and database. Snowflake and Databricks, you know, they're on a crash course, as you and I have talked about. They're battling to be the single source of truth in analytics. They're, there's going to be a big focus. They're already started. It's going to be accelerated in 2023 on open formats. Iceberg, Python, you know, they're all the rage. We heard about Iceberg at Snowflake Summit, last summer or last June. Not a lot of people had heard of it, but of course the Databricks crowd, who knows it well. A lot of other open source tooling. There's a company called DBT Labs, which you're going to talk about in a minute. George Gilbert put them on our radar. We just had Tristan Handy, the CEO of DBT labs, on at supercloud last week. They are a new disruptor in data that's, they're essentially making, they're API-ifying, if you will, KPIs inside the data warehouse and dramatically simplifying that whole data pipeline. So really, you know, the ETL guys should be shaking in their boots with them. Coming back to the slide. Google really remains focused on BigQuery adoption. Customers have complained to me that they would like to use Snowflake with Google's AI tools, but they're being forced to go to BigQuery. I got to ask Google about that. AWS continues to stitch together its bespoke data stores, that's gone down that "Right tool for the right job" path. David Foyer two years ago said, "AWS absolutely is going to have to solve that problem." We saw them start to do it in, at Reinvent, bringing together NoETL between Aurora and Redshift, and really trying to simplify those worlds. There's going to be more of that. And then Microsoft, they're just making it cheap and easy to use their stuff, you know, despite some of the complaints that we hear in the community, you know, about things like Cosmos, but Eric, your take? >> Yeah, my concern here is that Snowflake and Databricks are fighting each other, and it's allowing AWS and Microsoft to kind of catch up against them, and I don't know if that's the right move for either of those two companies individually, Azure and AWS are building out functionality. Are they as good? No they're not. The other thing to remember too is that AWS and Azure get paid anyway, because both Databricks and Snowflake run on top of 'em. So (laughing) they're basically collecting their toll, while these two fight it out with each other, and they build out functionality. I think they need to stop focusing on each other, a little bit, and think about the overall strategy. Now for Databricks, we know they came out first as a machine-learning AI tool. They were known better for that spot, and now they're really trying to play catch-up on that data storage compute spot, and inversely for Snowflake, they were killing it with the compute separation from storage, and now they're trying to get into the MLAI spot. I actually wouldn't be surprised to see them make some sort of acquisition. Frank Slootman has been a little bit quiet, in my opinion there. The other thing to mention is your comment about DBT Labs. If we look at our emerging technology survey, last survey when this came out, DBT labs, number one leader in that data integration space, I'm going to just pull it up real quickly. It looks like they had a 33% overall net sentiment to lead data analytics integration. So they are clearly growing, it's fourth straight survey consecutively that they've grown. The other name we're seeing there a little bit is Cribl, but DBT labs is by far the number one player in this space. >> All right. Okay, cool. Moving on, let's go to number nine. With Automation mixer resurgence in 2023, we're showing again data. The x axis is overlap or presence in the dataset, and the vertical axis is shared net score. Net score is a measure of spending momentum. As always, you've seen UI path and Microsoft Power Automate up until the right, that red line, that 40% line is generally considered elevated. UI path is really separating, creating some distance from Automation Anywhere, they, you know, previous quarters they were much closer. Microsoft Power Automate came on the scene in a big way, they loom large with this "Good enough" approach. I will say this, I, somebody sent me a results of a (indistinct) survey, which showed UiPath actually had more mentions than Power Automate, which was surprising, but I think that's not been the case in the ETR data set. We're definitely seeing a shift from back office to front soft office kind of workloads. Having said that, software testing is emerging as a mainstream use case, we're seeing ML and AI become embedded in end-to-end automations, and low-code is serving the line of business. And so this, we think, is going to increasingly have appeal to organizations in the coming year, who want to automate as much as possible and not necessarily, we've seen a lot of layoffs in tech, and people... You're going to have to fill the gaps with automation. That's a trend that's going to continue. >> Yep, agreed. At first that comment about Microsoft Power Automate having less citations than UiPath, that's shocking to me. I'm looking at my chart right here where Microsoft Power Automate was cited by over 60% of our entire survey takers, and UiPath at around 38%. Now don't get me wrong, 38% pervasion's fantastic, but you know you're not going to beat an entrenched Microsoft. So I don't really know where that comment came from. So UiPath, looking at it alone, it's doing incredibly well. It had a huge rebound in its net score this last survey. It had dropped going through the back half of 2022, but we saw a big spike in the last one. So it's got a net score of over 55%. A lot of people citing adoption and increasing. So that's really what you want to see for a name like this. The problem is that just Microsoft is doing its playbook. At the end of the day, I'm going to do a POC, why am I going to pay more for UiPath, or even take on another separate bill, when we know everyone's consolidating vendors, if my license already includes Microsoft Power Automate? It might not be perfect, it might not be as good, but what I'm hearing all the time is it's good enough, and I really don't want another invoice. >> Right. So how does UiPath, you know, and Automation Anywhere, how do they compete with that? Well, the way they compete with it is they got to have a better product. They got a product that's 10 times better. You know, they- >> Right. >> they're not going to compete based on where the lowest cost, Microsoft's got that locked up, or where the easiest to, you know, Microsoft basically give it away for free, and that's their playbook. So that's, you know, up to UiPath. UiPath brought on Rob Ensslin, I've interviewed him. Very, very capable individual, is now Co-CEO. So he's kind of bringing that adult supervision in, and really tightening up the go to market. So, you know, we know this company has been a rocket ship, and so getting some control on that and really getting focused like a laser, you know, could be good things ahead there for that company. Okay. >> One of the problems, if I could real quick Dave, is what the use cases are. When we first came out with RPA, everyone was super excited about like, "No, UiPath is going to be great for super powerful "projects, use cases." That's not what RPA is being used for. As you mentioned, it's being used for mundane tasks, so it's not automating complex things, which I think UiPath was built for. So if you were going to get UiPath, and choose that over Microsoft, it's going to be 'cause you're doing it for more powerful use case, where it is better. But the problem is that's not where the enterprise is using it. The enterprise are using this for base rote tasks, and simply, Microsoft Power Automate can do that. >> Yeah, it's interesting. I've had people on theCube that are both Microsoft Power Automate customers and UiPath customers, and I've asked them, "Well you know, "how do you differentiate between the two?" And they've said to me, "Look, our users and personal productivity users, "they like Power Automate, "they can use it themselves, and you know, "it doesn't take a lot of, you know, support on our end." The flip side is you could do that with UiPath, but like you said, there's more of a focus now on end-to-end enterprise automation and building out those capabilities. So it's increasingly a value play, and that's going to be obviously the challenge going forward. Okay, my last one, and then I think you've got some bonus ones. Number 10, hybrid events are the new category. Look it, if I can get a thousand inbounds that are largely self-serving, I can do my own here, 'cause we're in the events business. (Eric chuckling) Here's the prediction though, and this is a trend we're seeing, the number of physical events is going to dramatically increase. That might surprise people, but most of the big giant events are going to get smaller. The exception is AWS with Reinvent, I think Snowflake's going to continue to grow. So there are examples of physical events that are growing, but generally, most of the big ones are getting smaller, and there's going to be many more smaller intimate regional events and road shows. These micro-events, they're going to be stitched together. Digital is becoming a first class citizen, so people really got to get their digital acts together, and brands are prioritizing earned media, and they're beginning to build their own news networks, going direct to their customers. And so that's a trend we see, and I, you know, we're right in the middle of it, Eric, so you know we're going to, you mentioned RSA, I think that's perhaps going to be one of those crazy ones that continues to grow. It's shrunk, and then it, you know, 'cause last year- >> Yeah, it did shrink. >> right, it was the last one before the pandemic, and then they sort of made another run at it last year. It was smaller but it was very vibrant, and I think this year's going to be huge. Global World Congress is another one, we're going to be there end of Feb. That's obviously a big big show, but in general, the brands and the technology vendors, even Oracle is going to scale down. I don't know about Salesforce. We'll see. You had a couple of bonus predictions. Quantum and maybe some others? Bring us home. >> Yeah, sure. I got a few more. I think we touched upon one, but I definitely think the data prep tools are facing extinction, unfortunately, you know, the Talons Informatica is some of those names. The problem there is that the BI tools are kind of including data prep into it already. You know, an example of that is Tableau Prep Builder, and then in addition, Advanced NLP is being worked in as well. ThoughtSpot, Intelius, both often say that as their selling point, Tableau has Ask Data, Click has Insight Bot, so you don't have to really be intelligent on data prep anymore. A regular business user can just self-query, using either the search bar, or even just speaking into what it needs, and these tools are kind of doing the data prep for it. I don't think that's a, you know, an out in left field type of prediction, but it's the time is nigh. The other one I would also state is that I think knowledge graphs are going to break through this year. Neo4j in our survey is growing in pervasion in Mindshare. So more and more people are citing it, AWS Neptune's getting its act together, and we're seeing that spending intentions are growing there. Tiger Graph is also growing in our survey sample. I just think that the time is now for knowledge graphs to break through, and if I had to do one more, I'd say real-time streaming analytics moves from the very, very rich big enterprises to downstream, to more people are actually going to be moving towards real-time streaming, again, because the data prep tools and the data pipelines have gotten easier to use, and I think the ROI on real-time streaming is obviously there. So those are three that didn't make the cut, but I thought deserved an honorable mention. >> Yeah, I'm glad you did. Several weeks ago, we did an analyst prediction roundtable, if you will, a cube session power panel with a number of data analysts and that, you know, streaming, real-time streaming was top of mind. So glad you brought that up. Eric, as always, thank you very much. I appreciate the time you put in beforehand. I know it's been crazy, because you guys are wrapping up, you know, the last quarter survey in- >> Been a nuts three weeks for us. (laughing) >> job. I love the fact that you're doing, you know, the ETS survey now, I think it's quarterly now, right? Is that right? >> Yep. >> Yep. So that's phenomenal. >> Four times a year. I'll be happy to jump on with you when we get that done. I know you were really impressed with that last time. >> It's unbelievable. This is so much data at ETR. Okay. Hey, that's a wrap. Thanks again. >> Take care Dave. Good seeing you. >> All right, many thanks to our team here, Alex Myerson as production, he manages the podcast force. Ken Schiffman as well is a critical component of our East Coast studio. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hoof is our editor-in-chief. He's at siliconangle.com. He's just a great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these episodes that are available as podcasts, wherever you listen, podcast is doing great. Just search "Breaking analysis podcast." Really appreciate you guys listening. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com, or you can email me directly if you want to get in touch, david.vellante@siliconangle.com. That's how I got all these. I really appreciate it. I went through every single one with a yellow highlighter. It took some time, (laughing) but I appreciate it. You could DM me at dvellante, or comment on our LinkedIn post and please check out etr.ai. Its data is amazing. Best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCube Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis." (upbeat music beginning) (upbeat music ending)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> A decade of big data investments combined with cloud scale, the rise of much more cost effective processing power. And the introduction of advanced tooling has catapulted machine intelligence to the forefront of technology investments. No matter what job you have, your operation will be AI powered within five years and machines may actually even be doing your job. Artificial intelligence is being infused into applications, infrastructure, equipment, and virtually every aspect of our lives. AI is proving to be extremely helpful at things like controlling vehicles, speeding up medical diagnoses, processing language, advancing science, and generally raising the stakes on what it means to apply technology for business advantage. But business value realization has been a challenge for most organizations due to lack of skills, complexity of programming models, immature technology integration, sizable upfront investments, ethical concerns, and lack of business alignment. Mastering AI technology will not be a requirement for success in our view. However, figuring out how and where to apply AI to your business will be crucial. That means understanding the business case, picking the right technology partner, experimenting in bite-sized chunks, and quickly identifying winners to double down on from an investment standpoint. Hello and welcome to this week's Wiki-bond CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we update you on the state of AI and what it means for the competition. And to do so, we invite into our studios Andy Thurai of Constellation Research. Andy covers AI deeply. He knows the players, he knows the pitfalls of AI investment, and he's a collaborator. Andy, great to have you on the program. Thanks for coming into our CUBE studios. >> Thanks for having me on. >> You're very welcome. Okay, let's set the table with a premise and a series of assertions we want to test with Andy. I'm going to lay 'em out. And then Andy, I'd love for you to comment. So, first of all, according to McKinsey, AI adoption has more than doubled since 2017, but only 10% of organizations report seeing significant ROI. That's a BCG and MIT study. And part of that challenge of AI is it requires data, is requires good data, data proficiency, which is not trivial, as you know. Firms that can master both data and AI, we believe are going to have a competitive advantage this decade. Hyperscalers, as we show you dominate AI and ML. We'll show you some data on that. And having said that, there's plenty of room for specialists. They need to partner with the cloud vendors for go to market productivity. And finally, organizations increasingly have to put data and AI at the center of their enterprises. And to do that, most are going to rely on vendor R&D to leverage AI and ML. In other words, Andy, they're going to buy it and apply it as opposed to build it. What are your thoughts on that setup and that premise? >> Yeah, I see that a lot happening in the field, right? So first of all, the only 10% of realizing a return on investment. That's so true because we talked about this earlier, the most companies are still in the innovation cycle. So they're trying to innovate and see what they can do to apply. A lot of these times when you look at the solutions, what they come up with or the models they create, the experimentation they do, most times they don't even have a good business case to solve, right? So they just experiment and then they figure it out, "Oh my God, this model is working. Can we do something to solve it?" So it's like you found a hammer and then you're trying to find the needle kind of thing, right? That never works. >> 'Cause it's cool or whatever it is. >> It is, right? So that's why, I always advise, when they come to me and ask me things like, "Hey, what's the right way to do it? What is the secret sauce?" And, we talked about this. The first thing I tell them is, "Find out what is the business case that's having the most amount of problems, that that can be solved using some of the AI use cases," right? Not all of them can be solved. Even after you experiment, do the whole nine yards, spend millions of dollars on that, right? And later on you make it efficient only by saving maybe $50,000 for the company or a $100,000 for the company, is it really even worth the experiment, right? So you got to start with the saying that, you know, where's the base for this happening? Where's the need? What's a business use case? It doesn't have to be about cost efficient and saving money in the existing processes. It could be a new thing. You want to bring in a new revenue stream, but figure out what is a business use case, how much money potentially I can make off of that. The same way that start-ups go after. Right? >> Yeah. Pretty straightforward. All right, let's take a look at where ML and AI fit relative to the other hot sectors of the ETR dataset. This XY graph shows net score spending velocity in the vertical axis and presence in the survey, they call it sector perversion for the October survey, the January survey's in the field. Then that squiggly line on ML/AI represents the progression. Since the January 21 survey, you can see the downward trajectory. And we position ML and AI relative to the other big four hot sectors or big three, including, ML/AI is four. Containers, cloud and RPA. These have consistently performed above that magic 40% red dotted line for most of the past two years. Anything above 40%, we think is highly elevated. And we've just included analytics and big data for context and relevant adjacentness, if you will. Now note that green arrow moving toward, you know, the 40% mark on ML/AI. I got a glimpse of the January survey, which is in the field. It's got more than a thousand responses already, and it's trending up for the current survey. So Andy, what do you make of this downward trajectory over the past seven quarters and the presumed uptick in the coming months? >> So one of the things you have to keep in mind is when the pandemic happened, it's about survival mode, right? So when somebody's in a survival mode, what happens, the luxury and the innovations get cut. That's what happens. And this is exactly what happened in the situation. So as you can see in the last seven quarters, which is almost dating back close to pandemic, everybody was trying to keep their operations alive, especially digital operations. How do I keep the lights on? That's the most important thing for them. So while the numbers spent on AI, ML is less overall, I still think the AI ML to spend to sort of like a employee experience or the IT ops, AI ops, ML ops, as we talked about, some of those areas actually went up. There are companies, we talked about it, Atlassian had a lot of platform issues till the amount of money people are spending on that is exorbitant and simply because they are offering the solution that was not available other way. So there are companies out there, you can take AoPS or incident management for that matter, right? A lot of companies have a digital insurance, they don't know how to properly manage it. How do you find an intern solve it immediately? That's all using AI ML and some of those areas actually growing unbelievable, the companies in that area. >> So this is a really good point. If you can you bring up that chart again, what Andy's saying is a lot of the companies in the ETR taxonomy that are doing things with AI might not necessarily show up in a granular fashion. And I think the other point I would make is, these are still highly elevated numbers. If you put on like storage and servers, they would read way, way down the list. And, look in the pandemic, we had to deal with work from home, we had to re-architect the network, we had to worry about security. So those are really good points that you made there. Let's, unpack this a little bit and look at the ML AI sector and the ETR data and specifically at the players and get Andy to comment on this. This chart here shows the same x y dimensions, and it just notes some of the players that are specifically have services and products that people spend money on, that CIOs and IT buyers can comment on. So the table insert shows how the companies are plotted, it's net score, and then the ends in the survey. And Andy, the hyperscalers are dominant, as you can see. You see Databricks there showing strong as a specialist, and then you got to pack a six or seven in there. And then Oracle and IBM, kind of the big whales of yester year are in the mix. And to your point, companies like Salesforce that you mentioned to me offline aren't in that mix, but they do a lot in AI. But what are your takeaways from that data? >> If you could put the slide back on please. I want to make quick comments on a couple of those. So the first one is, it's surprising other hyperscalers, right? As you and I talked about this earlier, AWS is more about logo blocks. We discussed that, right? >> Like what? Like a SageMaker as an example. >> We'll give you all the components what do you need. Whether it's MLOps component or whether it's, CodeWhisperer that we talked about, or a oral platform or data or data, whatever you want. They'll give you the blocks and then you'll build things on top of it, right? But Google took a different way. Matter of fact, if we did those numbers a few years ago, Google would've been number one because they did a lot of work with their acquisition of DeepMind and other things. They're way ahead of the pack when it comes to AI for longest time. Now, I think Microsoft's move of partnering and taking a huge competitor out would open the eyes is unbelievable. You saw that everybody is talking about chat GPI, right? And the open AI tool and ChatGPT rather. Remember as Warren Buffet is saying that, when my laundry lady comes and talk to me about stock market, it's heated up. So that's how it's heated up. Everybody's using ChatGPT. What that means is at the end of the day is they're creating, it's still in beta, keep in mind. It's not fully... >> Can you play with it a little bit? >> I have a little bit. >> I have, but it's good and it's not good. You know what I mean? >> Look, so at the end of the day, you take the massive text of all the available text in the world today, mass them all together. And then you ask a question, it's going to basically search through that and figure it out and answer that back. Yes, it's good. But again, as we discussed, if there's no business use case of what problem you're going to solve. This is building hype. But then eventually they'll figure out, for example, all your chats, online chats, could be aided by your AI chat bots, which is already there, which is not there at that level. This could build help that, right? Or the other thing we talked about is one of the areas where I'm more concerned about is that it is able to produce equal enough original text at the level that humans can produce, for example, ChatGPT or the equal enough, the large language transformer can help you write stories as of Shakespeare wrote it. Pretty close to it. It'll learn from that. So when it comes down to it, talk about creating messages, articles, blogs, especially during political seasons, not necessarily just in US, but anywhere for that matter. If people are able to produce at the emission speed and throw it at the consumers and confuse them, the elections can be won, the governments can be toppled. >> Because to your point about chatbots is chatbots have obviously, reduced the number of bodies that you need to support chat. But they haven't solved the problem of serving consumers. Most of the chat bots are conditioned response, which of the following best describes your problem? >> The current chatbot. >> Yeah. Hey, did we solve your problem? No. Is the answer. So that has some real potential. But if you could bring up that slide again, Ken, I mean you've got the hyperscalers that are dominant. You talked about Google and Microsoft is ubiquitous, they seem to be dominant in every ETR category. But then you have these other specialists. How do those guys compete? And maybe you could even, cite some of the guys that you know, how do they compete with the hyperscalers? What's the key there for like a C3 ai or some of the others that are on there? >> So I've spoken with at least two of the CEOs of the smaller companies that you have on the list. One of the things they're worried about is that if they continue to operate independently without being part of hyperscaler, either the hyperscalers will develop something to compete against them full scale, or they'll become irrelevant. Because at the end of the day, look, cloud is dominant. Not many companies are going to do like AI modeling and training and deployment the whole nine yards by independent by themselves. They're going to depend on one of the clouds, right? So if they're already going to be in the cloud, by taking them out to come to you, it's going to be extremely difficult issue to solve. So all these companies are going and saying, "You know what? We need to be in hyperscalers." For example, you could have looked at DataRobot recently, they made announcements, Google and AWS, and they are all over the place. So you need to go where the customers are. Right? >> All right, before we go on, I want to share some other data from ETR and why people adopt AI and get your feedback. So the data historically shows that feature breadth and technical capabilities were the main decision points for AI adoption, historically. What says to me that it's too much focus on technology. In your view, is that changing? Does it have to change? Will it change? >> Yes. Simple answer is yes. So here's the thing. The data you're speaking from is from previous years. >> Yes >> I can guarantee you, if you look at the latest data that's coming in now, those two will be a secondary and tertiary points. The number one would be about ROI. And how do I achieve? I've spent ton of money on all of my experiments. This is the same thing theme I'm seeing across when talking to everybody who's spending money on AI. I've spent so much money on it. When can I get it live in production? How much, how can I quickly get it? Because you know, the board is breathing down their neck. You already spend this much money. Show me something that's valuable. So the ROI is going to become, take it from me, I'm predicting this for 2023, that's going to become number one. >> Yeah, and if people focus on it, they'll figure it out. Okay. Let's take a look at some of the top players that won, some of the names we just looked at and double click on that and break down their spending profile. So the chart here shows the net score, how net score is calculated. So pay attention to the second set of bars that Databricks, who was pretty prominent on the previous chart. And we've annotated the colors. The lime green is, we're bringing the platform in new. The forest green is, we're going to spend 6% or more relative to last year. And the gray is flat spending. The pinkish is our spending's going to be down on AI and ML, 6% or worse. And the red is churn. So you don't want big red. You subtract the reds from the greens and you get net score, which is shown by those blue dots that you see there. So AWS has the highest net score and very little churn. I mean, single low single digit churn. But notably, you see Databricks and DataRobot are next in line within Microsoft and Google also, they've got very low churn. Andy, what are your thoughts on this data? >> So a couple of things that stands out to me. Most of them are in line with my conversation with customers. Couple of them stood out to me on how bad IBM Watson is doing. >> Yeah, bring that back up if you would. Let's take a look at that. IBM Watson is the far right and the red, that bright red is churning and again, you want low red here. Why do you think that is? >> Well, so look, IBM has been in the forefront of innovating things for many, many years now, right? And over the course of years we talked about this, they moved from a product innovation centric company into more of a services company. And over the years they were making, as at one point, you know that they were making about majority of that money from services. Now things have changed Arvind has taken over, he came from research. So he's doing a great job of trying to reinvent themselves as a company. But it's going to have a long way to catch up. IBM Watson, if you think about it, that played what, jeopardy and chess years ago, like 15 years ago? >> It was jaw dropping when you first saw it. And then they weren't able to commercialize that. >> Yeah. >> And you're making a good point. When Gerstner took over IBM at the time, John Akers wanted to split the company up. He wanted to have a database company, he wanted to have a storage company. Because that's where the industry trend was, Gerstner said no, he came from AMEX, right? He came from American Express. He said, "No, we're going to have a single throat to choke for the customer." They bought PWC for relatively short money. I think it was $15 billion, completely transformed and I would argue saved IBM. But the trade off was, it sort of took them out of product leadership. And so from Gerstner to Palmisano to Remedi, it was really a services led company. And I think Arvind is really bringing it back to a product company with strong consulting. I mean, that's one of the pillars. And so I think that's, they've got a strong story in data and AI. They just got to sort of bring it together and better. Bring that chart up one more time. I want to, the other point is Oracle, Oracle sort of has the dominant lock-in for mission critical database and they're sort of applying AI there. But to your point, they're really not an AI company in the sense that they're taking unstructured data and doing sort of new things. It's really about how to make Oracle better, right? >> Well, you got to remember, Oracle is about database for the structure data. So in yesterday's world, they were dominant database. But you know, if you are to start storing like videos and texts and audio and other things, and then start doing search of vector search and all that, Oracle is not necessarily the database company of choice. And they're strongest thing being apps and building AI into the apps? They are kind of surviving in that area. But again, I wouldn't name them as an AI company, right? But the other thing that that surprised me in that list, what you showed me is yes, AWS is number one. >> Bring that back up if you would, Ken. >> AWS is number one as you, it should be. But what what actually caught me by surprise is how DataRobot is holding, you know? I mean, look at that. The either net new addition and or expansion, DataRobot seem to be doing equally well, even better than Microsoft and Google. That surprises me. >> DataRobot's, and again, this is a function of spending momentum. So remember from the previous chart that Microsoft and Google, much, much larger than DataRobot. DataRobot more niche. But with spending velocity and has always had strong spending velocity, despite some of the recent challenges, organizational challenges. And then you see these other specialists, H2O.ai, Anaconda, dataiku, little bit of red showing there C3.ai. But these again, to stress are the sort of specialists other than obviously the hyperscalers. These are the specialists in AI. All right, so we hit the bigger names in the sector. Now let's take a look at the emerging technology companies. And one of the gems of the ETR dataset is the emerging technology survey. It's called ETS. They used to just do it like twice a year. It's now run four times a year. I just discovered it kind of mid-2022. And it's exclusively focused on private companies that are potential disruptors, they might be M&A candidates and if they've raised enough money, they could be acquirers of companies as well. So Databricks would be an example. They've made a number of investments in companies. SNEAK would be another good example. Companies that are private, but they're buyers, they hope to go IPO at some point in time. So this chart here, shows the emerging companies in the ML AI sector of the ETR dataset. So the dimensions of this are similar, they're net sentiment on the Y axis and mind share on the X axis. Basically, the ETS study measures awareness on the x axis and intent to do something with, evaluate or implement or not, on that vertical axis. So it's like net score on the vertical where negatives are subtracted from the positives. And again, mind share is vendor awareness. That's the horizontal axis. Now that inserted table shows net sentiment and the ends in the survey, which informs the position of the dots. And you'll notice we're plotting TensorFlow as well. We know that's not a company, but it's there for reference as open source tooling is an option for customers. And ETR sometimes like to show that as a reference point. Now we've also drawn a line for Databricks to show how relatively dominant they've become in the past 10 ETS surveys and sort of mind share going back to late 2018. And you can see a dozen or so other emerging tech vendors. So Andy, I want you to share your thoughts on these players, who were the ones to watch, name some names. We'll bring that data back up as you as you comment. >> So Databricks, as you said, remember we talked about how Oracle is not necessarily the database of the choice, you know? So Databricks is kind of trying to solve some of the issue for AI/ML workloads, right? And the problem is also there is no one company that could solve all of the problems. For example, if you look at the names in here, some of them are database names, some of them are platform names, some of them are like MLOps companies like, DataRobot (indistinct) and others. And some of them are like future based companies like, you know, the Techton and stuff. >> So it's a mix of those sub sectors? >> It's a mix of those companies. >> We'll talk to ETR about that. They'd be interested in your input on how to make this more granular and these sub-sectors. You got Hugging Face in here, >> Which is NLP, yeah. >> Okay. So your take, are these companies going to get acquired? Are they going to go IPO? Are they going to merge? >> Well, most of them going to get acquired. My prediction would be most of them will get acquired because look, at the end of the day, hyperscalers need these capabilities, right? So they're going to either create their own, AWS is very good at doing that. They have done a lot of those things. But the other ones, like for particularly Azure, they're going to look at it and saying that, "You know what, it's going to take time for me to build this. Why don't I just go and buy you?" Right? Or or even the smaller players like Oracle or IBM Cloud, this will exist. They might even take a look at them, right? So at the end of the day, a lot of these companies are going to get acquired or merged with others. >> Yeah. All right, let's wrap with some final thoughts. I'm going to make some comments Andy, and then ask you to dig in here. Look, despite the challenge of leveraging AI, you know, Ken, if you could bring up the next chart. We're not repeating, we're not predicting the AI winter of the 1990s. Machine intelligence. It's a superpower that's going to permeate every aspect of the technology industry. AI and data strategies have to be connected. Leveraging first party data is going to increase AI competitiveness and shorten time to value. Andy, I'd love your thoughts on that. I know you've got some thoughts on governance and AI ethics. You know, we talked about ChatGBT, Deepfakes, help us unpack all these trends. >> So there's so much information packed up there, right? The AI and data strategy, that's very, very, very important. If you don't have a proper data, people don't realize that AI is, your AI is the morals that you built on, it's predominantly based on the data what you have. It's not, AI cannot predict something that's going to happen without knowing what it is. It need to be trained, it need to understand what is it you're talking about. So 99% of the time you got to have a good data for you to train. So this where I mentioned to you, the problem is a lot of these companies can't afford to collect the real world data because it takes too long, it's too expensive. So a lot of these companies are trying to do the synthetic data way. It has its own set of issues because you can't use all... >> What's that synthetic data? Explain that. >> Synthetic data is basically not a real world data, but it's a created or simulated data equal and based on real data. It looks, feels, smells, taste like a real data, but it's not exactly real data, right? This is particularly useful in the financial and healthcare industry for world. So you don't have to, at the end of the day, if you have real data about your and my medical history data, if you redact it, you can still reverse this. It's fairly easy, right? >> Yeah, yeah. >> So by creating a synthetic data, there is no correlation between the real data and the synthetic data. >> So that's part of AI ethics and privacy and, okay. >> So the synthetic data, the issue with that is that when you're trying to commingle that with that, you can't create models based on just on synthetic data because synthetic data, as I said is artificial data. So basically you're creating artificial models, so you got to blend in properly that that blend is the problem. And you know how much of real data, how much of synthetic data you could use. You got to use judgment between efficiency cost and the time duration stuff. So that's one-- >> And risk >> And the risk involved with that. And the secondary issues which we talked about is that when you're creating, okay, you take a business use case, okay, you think about investing things, you build the whole thing out and you're trying to put it out into the market. Most companies that I talk to don't have a proper governance in place. They don't have ethics standards in place. They don't worry about the biases in data, they just go on trying to solve a business case >> It's wild west. >> 'Cause that's what they start. It's a wild west! And then at the end of the day when they are close to some legal litigation action or something or something else happens and that's when the Oh Shit! moments happens, right? And then they come in and say, "You know what, how do I fix this?" The governance, security and all of those things, ethics bias, data bias, de-biasing, none of them can be an afterthought. It got to start with the, from the get-go. So you got to start at the beginning saying that, "You know what, I'm going to do all of those AI programs, but before we get into this, we got to set some framework for doing all these things properly." Right? And then the-- >> Yeah. So let's go back to the key points. I want to bring up the cloud again. Because you got to get cloud right. Getting that right matters in AI to the points that you were making earlier. You can't just be out on an island and hyperscalers, they're going to obviously continue to do well. They get more and more data's going into the cloud and they have the native tools. To your point, in the case of AWS, Microsoft's obviously ubiquitous. Google's got great capabilities here. They've got integrated ecosystems partners that are going to continue to strengthen through the decade. What are your thoughts here? >> So a couple of things. One is the last mile ML or last mile AI that nobody's talking about. So that need to be attended to. There are lot of players in the market that coming up, when I talk about last mile, I'm talking about after you're done with the experimentation of the model, how fast and quickly and efficiently can you get it to production? So that's production being-- >> Compressing that time is going to put dollars in your pocket. >> Exactly. Right. >> So once, >> If you got it right. >> If you get it right, of course. So there are, there are a couple of issues with that. Once you figure out that model is working, that's perfect. People don't realize, the moment you decide that moment when the decision is made, it's like a new car. After you purchase the value decreases on a minute basis. Same thing with the models. Once the model is created, you need to be in production right away because it starts losing it value on a seconds minute basis. So issue number one, how fast can I get it over there? So your deployment, you are inferencing efficiently at the edge locations, your optimization, your security, all of this is at issue. But you know what is more important than that in the last mile? You keep the model up, you continue to work on, again, going back to the car analogy, at one point you got to figure out your car is costing more than to operate. So you got to get a new car, right? And that's the same thing with the models as well. If your model has reached a stage, it is actually a potential risk for your operation. To give you an idea, if Uber has a model, the first time when you get a car from going from point A to B cost you $60. If the model decayed the next time I might give you a $40 rate, I would take it definitely. But it's lost for the company. The business risk associated with operating on a bad model, you should realize it immediately, pull the model out, retrain it, redeploy it. That's is key. >> And that's got to be huge in security model recency and security to the extent that you can get real time is big. I mean you, you see Palo Alto, CrowdStrike, a lot of other security companies are injecting AI. Again, they won't show up in the ETR ML/AI taxonomy per se as a pure play. But ServiceNow is another company that you have have mentioned to me, offline. AI is just getting embedded everywhere. >> Yep. >> And then I'm glad you brought up, kind of real-time inferencing 'cause a lot of the modeling, if we can go back to the last point that we're going to make, a lot of the AI today is modeling done in the cloud. The last point we wanted to make here, I'd love to get your thoughts on this, is real-time AI inferencing for instance at the edge is going to become increasingly important for us. It's going to usher in new economics, new types of silicon, particularly arm-based. We've covered that a lot on "Breaking Analysis", new tooling, new companies and that could disrupt the sort of cloud model if new economics emerge. 'Cause cloud obviously very centralized, they're trying to decentralize it. But over the course of this decade we could see some real disruption there. Andy, give us your final thoughts on that. >> Yes and no. I mean at the end of the day, cloud is kind of centralized now, but a lot of this companies including, AWS is kind of trying to decentralize that by putting their own sub-centers and edge locations. >> Local zones, outposts. >> Yeah, exactly. Particularly the outpost concept. And if it can even become like a micro center and stuff, it won't go to the localized level of, I go to a single IOT level. But again, the cloud extends itself to that level. So if there is an opportunity need for it, the hyperscalers will figure out a way to fit that model. So I wouldn't too much worry about that, about deployment and where to have it and what to do with that. But you know, figure out the right business use case, get the right data, get the ethics and governance place and make sure they get it to production and make sure you pull the model out when it's not operating well. >> Excellent advice. Andy, I got to thank you for coming into the studio today, helping us with this "Breaking Analysis" segment. Outstanding collaboration and insights and input in today's episode. Hope we can do more. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. >> You're very welcome. All right. I want to thank Alex Marson who's on production and manages the podcast. Ken Schiffman as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight helped get the word out on social media and our newsletters. And Rob Hoof is our editor-in-chief over at Silicon Angle. He does some great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these episodes are available as podcast. Wherever you listen, all you got to do is search "Breaking Analysis" podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and silicon angle.com or you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com to get in touch, or DM me at dvellante or comment on our LinkedIn posts. Please check out ETR.AI for the best survey data and the enterprise tech business, Constellation Research. Andy publishes there some awesome information on AI and data. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching everybody and we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis". (gentle closing tune plays)

(upbeat music) (logo shimmers) >> Good afternoon everyone, and welcome back to AWS re Invent 2022. We are live here from the show floor in Las Vegas, Nevada, we're theCUBE, my name is Savannah Peterson, joined by John Furrier, John, are you excited for the next segment? >> I love the innovation story, this next segment's going to be really interesting, an example of ecosystem innovation in action, it'll be great. >> Yeah, our next guests are actually award-winning, I am very excited about that, please welcome Alan and Becky from IBM. Thank you both so much for being here, how's the show going for ya? Becky you got a, just a platinum smile, I'm going to go to you first, how's the show so far? >> No, it's going great. There's lots of buzz, lots of excitement this year, of course, three times the number of people, but it's fantastic. >> Three times the number of people- >> (indistinct) for last year. >> That is so exciting, so what is that... Do you know what the total is then? >> I think it's over 55,000. >> Ooh, loving that. >> John: A lot. >> It's a lot, you can tell by the hallways- >> Becky: It's a lot. >> John: It's crowded, right. >> Yeah, you can tell by just the energy and the, honestly the heat in here right now is pretty good. Alan, how are you feeling on the show floor this year? >> Awesome, awesome, we're meeting a lot of partners, talking to a lot of clients. We're really kind of showing them what the new IBM, AWS relationship is all about, so, beautiful time to be here. >> Well Alan, why don't you tell us what that partnership is about, to start us off? >> Sure, sure. So the partnership started with the relationship in our consulting services, and Becky's going to talk more about that, right? And it grew, this year it grew into the IBM software realm where we signed an agreement with AWS around May timeframe this year. >> I love it, so, like you said, you're just getting started- >> Just getting started. >> This is the beginning of something magic. >> We're just scratching the surface with this right? >> Savannah: Yeah. >> But it represents a huge move for IBM to meet our clients where they are, right? Meet 'em where they are with IBM technology, enterprise technology they're used to, but with the look and feel and usage model that they're used to with AWS. >> Absolutely and so to build on that, you know, we're really excited to be an AWS Premier Consulting Partner. We've had this relationship for a little over five years with AWS, I'd say it's really gone up a notch over the last year or two as we've been working more and more closely, doubling down on our investments, doubling down on our certifications, we've got over 15,000 people certified now, almost 16,000 actually- >> Savannah: Wow. >> 14 competencies, 16 service deliveries and counting. We cover a mass of information and services from Data Analytics, IoT, AI, all the way to Modernization, SAP, Security Services, right. So it's pretty comprehensive relationship, but in addition to the fantastic clients that we both share, we're doing some really great things around joint industry solutions, which I'll talk about in a few minutes and some of those are being launched at the conference this year, so that's even better. But the most exciting thing to me right now is that we just found out that we won the Global Innovator Partner of the Year award, and a LATAM Partner of the Year award. >> Savannah: Wow. >> John: That's (indistinct) >> So, super excited for IBM Consulting to win this, we're honored and it's just a great, exciting part to the conference. >> The news coming out of this event, we know tomorrow's going to be the big keynote for the new Head of the ecosystem, Ruba. We're hearing that it's going to be all about the ecosystem, enabling value creation, enabling new kinds of solutions. We heard from the CEO of AWS, this nextGen environment's upon us, it's very solution-oriented- >> Becky: Absolutely. >> A lot of technology, it's not an either or, it's an and equation, this is a huge new shift, I won't say shift, a continuation for AWS, and you guys, we've been covering, so you got the and situation going on... Innovation solutions and innovation technology and customers can choose, build a foundation or have it out of the box. What's your reaction to that? Do you think it's going to go well for AWS and IBM? >> I think it fits well into our partnership, right? The the thing you mentioned that I gravitate to the most is the customer gets to choose and the thing that's been most amazing about the partnership, both of these companies are maniacally focused on the customer, right? And so we've seen that come about as we work on ways the customer to access our technology, consume the technology, right? We've sold software on-prem to customers before, right, now we're going to be selling SaaS on AWS because we had customers that were on AWS, we're making it so that they can more easily purchase it by being in the marketplace, making it so they can draw down their committed spin with AWS, their customers like that a lot- [John] Yeah. >> Right. We've even gone further to enable our distributor network and our resellers, 'cause a lot of our customers have those relationships, so they can buy through them. And recently we've enabled the customer to leverage their EDP, their committed spend with AWS against IBM's ELA and structure, right, so you kind of get a double commit value from a customer point of view, so the amazing part is just been all about the customers. >> Well, that's interesting, you got the technology relationship with AWS, you mentioned how they're engaging with the software consumption in marketplace, licensed deals, there's all kinds of new business model innovations on top of the consumption and building. Then you got the consulting piece, which is again, a big part of, Adam calls it "Business transformation," which is the result of digital transformation. So digital transformation is the process, the outcome is the business transformation, that's kind of where it all kind of connects. Becky, what's your thoughts on the Amazon consulting relationships? Obviously the awards are great but- >> They are, no- >> What's the next step? Where does it go from here? >> I think the best way for me to describe it is to give you some rapid flyer client examples, you know, real customer stories and I think that's where it really, rubber meets the road, right? So one of the most recent examples are IBM CEO Arvind Krishna, in his three key results actually mentioned one of our big clients with AWS which is the Department of Veterans Affairs in the US and is an AI solution that's helped automate claims processing. So the veterans are trying to get their benefits, they submit the claims, snail mail, phone calls, you know, some in person, some over email- >> Savannah: Oh, it gives me all the feels hearing you talk about this- >> It's a process that used to take 25 to 30 days depending on the complexity of the claims, we've gotten it down with AWS down to within 24 hours we can get the veterans what they need really quickly so, I mean, that's just huge. And it's an exciting story that includes data analytics, AI and automation, so that's just one example. You know, we've got examples around SAP where we've developed a next generation SAP for HANA Platform for Phillips Carbon Black hosted on AWS, right? For them, it created an integrated, scalable, digital business, that cut out a hundred percent the capital cost from on-prem solutions. We've got security solutions around architectures for telecommunications advisors and of course we have lots of examples of migration and modernization and moving workloads using Red Hat to do that. So there's a lot of great client examples, so to me, this is the heart of what we do, like you said, both companies are really focused on clients, Amazon's customer-obsessed, and doing what we can for our clients together is where we get the impact. >> Yeah, that's one of the things that, it sounds kind of cliche, "Oh we're going to work backwards from the customer," I know Amazon says that, they do, you guys are also very customer-focused but the customers are changing. So I'd love to get your reaction because we're now in that cloud 2.0, I call that 2.0 or you got the Amazon Classic, my word, and then Next Gen Cloud coming, the customers are different, they're transforming because IT's not a department anymore, it's in the DevOps pipeline. The developers are driving a lot of IT but security and on DataOps, it's the structural change happening at the customer, how do you guys see that at IBM? I know we cover a lot of Red Hat and Arvind talks to us all the time, meeting the customer where they are, where are they? Where are the customers? Can you share your perspective on where they are? >> It's an astute observation, right, the customer is changing. We have both of those sets of customers, right, we still have the traditional customer, our relationship with Central IT, right, and driving governance and all of those things. But the folks that are innovating many times they're in the line of business, they're discovering solutions, they're building new things. And so we need our offerings to be available to them. We need them to understand how to use them and be convenient for these guys and take them through that process. So that change in the customer is one that we are embracing by making our offerings easy to consume, easy to use, and easy to build into solutions and then easy to parlay into what central IT needs to do for governance, compliance, and these types of things, it's becoming our new bread and butter. >> And what's really cool is- >> Is that easy button- >> We've been talking about- >> It's the easy button. >> The easy button a lot on the show this week and if you just, you just described it it's exactly what people want, go on Becky. >> Sorry about that, I was going to say, the cool part is that we're co-creating these things with our clients. So we're using things like the Amazon Working Backward that you just mentioned.` We're using the IBM garage methodology to get innovative to do design working, design thinking workshops, and think about where is that end user?, Where is that stakeholder? Where are they, they thinking, feeling, doing, saying how do we make the easier? How do we get the easy button for them so that they can have the right solutions for their businesses. We work mostly with lines of business in my part of the organization, and they're hungry for that. >> You know, we had a quote on theCUBE yesterday, Savannah remember one of our guests said, you know, back in the, you know, 1990s or two 2000s, if you had four production apps, it was considered complex >> Savannah: Yeah. >> You know, now you got hundreds of workloads, thousands of workloads, so, you know, this end-to-end vision that we heard that's playing out is getting more complex, but the easy button is where these abstraction layers and technology could come in. So it's getting more complex because there's more stuff but it's getting easier because- >> Savannah: What is the magnitude? >> You can make it easier. This is a dynamic, share your thoughts on that. >> It's getting more complex because our clients need to move faster, right, they need to be more agile, right, so not only are there thousands of applications there are hundreds of thousands microservices that are composing those applications. So they need capabilities that help them not just build but govern that structure and put the right compliance over that structure. So this relationship- >> Savannah: Lines of governance, yeah- >> This relationship we built with AWS is in our key areas, it's a strategic move, not a small thing for us, it covers things like automation and integration where you need to build that way. It covers things like data and AI where you need to do the analytics, even things like sustainability where we're totally aligned with what AWS is talking about and trying to do, right, so it's really a good match made there. >> John: It really sounds awesome. >> Yeah, it's clear. I want to dig in a little bit, I love the term, and I saw it in my, it stuck out to me in the notes right away, getting ready for you all, "maniacal", maniacal about the customer, maniacal about the community, I think that's really clear when we're talking about 24 days to 24 hours, like the veteran example that you gave right there, which I genuinely felt in my heart. These are the types of collaborations that really impact people's lives, tell me about some of the other trends or maybe a couple other examples you might have because I think sometimes when our head's in the clouds, we talk a lot about the tech and the functionality, we forget it's touching every single person walking around us, probably in a different way right now than we may even be aware- >> I think one of the things that's been, and our clients have been asking us for, is to help coming into this new era, right, so we've come out of a pandemic where a lot of them had to do some really, really basic quick decisions. Okay, "Contact Center, everyone work from home now." Okay, how do we do that? Okay, so we cobbled something together, now we're back, so what do we do? How do we create digital transformation around that so that we are going forward in a really positive way that works for our clients or for our contact center reps who are maybe used to working from home now versus what our clients need, the response times they need, and AWS has all the technology that we're working with like Amazon Connect to be able to pull those things together with some of our software like Watson Assistant. So those types of solutions are coming together out of that need and now we're moving into the trend where economy's getting tougher, right? More cost cutting potentially is coming, right, better efficiencies, how do we leverage our solutions and help our clients and customers do that? So I think that's what the customer obsession's about, is making sure we really understand where their pain points are, and not just solve them but maybe get rid of 'em. >> John: Yeah, great one. >> Yeah. And not developing in a silo, I mean, it's a classic subway problem, you got to be communicating with your community if you want to continue to serve them. And IBM's been serving their community for a very long time, which is super impressive, do you think they're ready for the challenge? >> Let's do it. >> So we have a new thing on theCUBE. >> Becky: Oh boy. >> We didn't warn you about this, but here we go. Although you told, Alan, you've mentioned you're feeling very cool with the microphone on, so I feel like, I'm going to put you in the hot seat first on this one. Not that I don't think Becky's going to smash it, but I feel like you're channeling the power of the microphone. New challenges, treat it like a 32nd Instagram reel-style story, a hot take, your thought leadership, money clip, you know, this is your moment. What is the biggest takeaway, most important thing happening at the show this year? >> Most important thing happening at the show? Well, I'm glad you mentioned it that way, because earlier you said we may have to sing (presenters and guests all laughing) >> So this is much better than- >> That's actually part of the close. >> John: Hey, hey. >> Don't worry, don't worry, I haven't forgotten that, it's your Instagram reel, go. (Savannah laughs) >> Original audio happening here on theCUBE, courtesy of Alan and IBM, I am so here for it. >> So what my takeaway and what I would like for the audience to take away, out of this conversation especially, but even broadly, the IBM AWS relationship is really like a landmark type of relationship, right? It's one of the biggest that we've established on both sides, right- >> Savannah: It seems huge, okay you are too monolith in the world of companies, like, yeah- >> Becky: Totally. >> It's huge. And it represents a strategic change on both sides, right? With that customer- >> Savannah: Fundamentally- >> In the middle right? >> Savannah: Yeah. >> So we're seeing things like, you know, AWS is working with us to make sure we're building products the way that a AWS client likes to consume them, right, so that we have the right integration, so they get that right look and feel, but they still get the enterprise level capabilities they're used to from IBM, right? So the big takeaway I like for people to take, is this is a new IBM, it's a new AWS and IBM relationship, and so expect more of that goodness, more of those new things coming out of it. [John] Excellent, wow. >> That was great, well done, you nailed it. and you're going to finish with some acapella, right? (Alan laughs) >> You got a pitch pipe ready? (everyone laughs) >> All right Becky, what about you? Give us your hot take. >> Well, so for me, the biggest takeaway is just the way this relationship has grown so much, so, like you said, it's the new IBM it's the new AWS, we were here last year, we had some good things, this year we're back at the show with joint solutions, have been jointly funded and co-created by AWS and IBM. This is huge, this is a really big opportunity and a really big deal that these two companies have come together, identified joint customer needs and we're going after 'em together and we're putting 'em in the booth. >> Savannah: So cool. And there's things like smart edge for welding solutions that are out there. >> Savannah: Yes. >> You know, I talked about, and it's, you know you wouldn't think, "Okay, well what's that?" There's a lot to that, a lot of saving when you look at how you do welding and if you apply things like visual AI and auditory AI to make sure a weld is good. I mean, I think these are, these things are cool, I geek out on these things- >> John: Every vertical. >> I'm geeking out with you right now, just geeking- >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, so- >> Every vertical is infected. >> They are and it's so impactful to have AWS just in lockstep with us, doing these solutions, it's so different from, you know, you kind of create something that you think your customers like and then you put it out there. >> Yeah, versus this moment. >> Yeah, they're better together. >> It's strategic partnership- >> It's truly a strategic partnership. and we're really bringing that this year to reinvent and so I'm super excited about that. >> Congratulations. >> Wow, well, congratulations again on your awards, on your new partnership, I can't wait to hear, I mean, we're seven months in, eight months in to this this SaaS side of the partnership, can't wait to see what we're going to be talking about next year when we have you back on theCUBE. >> I know. >> and maybe again in between now and then. Alan, Becky, thank you both so much for being here, this was truly a joy and I'm sure you gave folks a taste of the new IBM, practicing what you preach. >> John: Great momentum. >> And I'm just, I'm so impressed with the two companies collaborating, for those of us OGs in tech, the big companies never collaborated before- >> Yeah. >> John: Yeah. Joint, co-created solutions. >> And you have friction between products and everything else. I mean's it's really, co-collaboration is, it's a big theme for us at all the shows we've been doing this year but it's just nice to see it in practice too, it's an entirely different thing, so well done. >> Well it's what gets me out of the bed in the morning. >> All right, congratulations. >> Very clearly, your energy is contagious and I love it and yeah, this has been great. Thank all of you at home or at work or on the International Space Station or wherever you might be tuning in from today for joining us, here in Las Vegas at AWS re Invent where we are live from the show floor, wall-to-wall coverage for three days with John Furrier. My name is Savannah Peterson, we're theCUBE, the source for high tech coverage. (cheerful upbeat music)

>>Good evening everyone and welcome back to Sparkly Sin City, Las Vegas, Nevada, where we are here with the cube covering AWS Reinvent for the 10th year in a row. John Furrier has been here for all 10. John, we are in our last session of day one. How does it compare? >>I just graduated high school 10 years ago. It's exciting to be, here's been a long time. We've gotten a lot older. My >>Got your brain is complex. You've been a lot in there. So fast. >>Graduated eight in high school. You know how it's No. All good. This is what's going on. This next segment, wrapping up day one, which is like the the kickoff. The Mondays great year. I mean Tuesdays coming tomorrow big days. The announcements are all around the kind of next gen and you're starting to see partnering and integration is a huge part of this next wave cuz API's at the cloud, next gen cloud's gonna be deep engineering integration and you're gonna start to see business relationships and business transformation scale a horizontally, not only across applications but companies. This has been going on for a while, covering it. This next segment is gonna be one of those things that we're gonna look at as something that's gonna happen more and more on >>Yeah, I think so. It's what we've been talking about all day. Without further ado, I would like to welcome our very exciting guest for this final segment, trust from single store. Thank you for being here. And we also have him on from IBM Data and ai. Y'all are partners. Been partners for about a year. I'm gonna go out on a limb only because their legacy and suspect that a few people, a few more people might know what IBM does versus what a single store does. So why don't you just give us a little bit of background so everybody knows what's going on. >>Yeah, so single store is a relational database. It's a foundational relational systems, but the thing that we do the best is what we call us realtime analytics. So we have these systems that are legacy, which which do operations or analytics. And if you wanted to bring them together, like most of the applications want to, it's really a big hassle. You have to build an ETL pipeline, you'd have to duplicate the data. It's really faulty systems all over the place and you won't get the insights really quickly. Single store is trying to solve that problem elegantly by having an architecture that brings both operational and analytics in one place. >>Brilliant. >>You guys had a big funding now expanding men. Sequel, single store databases, 46 billion again, databases. We've been saying this in the queue for 12 years have been great and recently not one database will rule the world. We know that. That's, everyone knows that databases, data code, cloud scale, this is the convergence now of all that coming together where data, this reinvent is the theme. Everyone will be talking about end to end data, new kinds of specialized services, faster performance, new kinds of application development. This is the big part of why you guys are working together. Explain the relationship, how you guys are partnering and engineering together. >>Yeah, absolutely. I think so ibm, right? I think we are mainly into hybrid cloud and ai and one of the things we are looking at is expanding our ecosystem, right? Because we have gaps and as opposed to building everything organically, we want to partner with the likes of single store, which have unique capabilities that complement what we have. Because at the end of the day, customers are looking for an end to end solution that's also business problems. And they are very good at real time data analytics and hit staff, right? Because we have transactional databases, analytical databases, data lakes, but head staff is a gap that we currently have. And by partnering with them we can essentially address the needs of our customers and also what we plan to do is try to integrate our products and solutions with that so that when we can deliver a solution to our customers, >>This is why I was saying earlier, I think this is a a tell sign of what's coming from a lot of use cases where people are partnering right now you got the clouds, a bunch of building blocks. If you put it together yourself, you can build a durable system, very stable if you want out of the box solution, you can get that pre-built, but you really can't optimize. It breaks, you gotta replace it. High level engineering systems together is a little bit different, not just buying something out of the box. You guys are working together. This is kind of an end to end dynamic that we're gonna hear a lot more about at reinvent from the CEO ofs. But you guys are doing it across companies, not just with aws. Can you guys share this new engineering business model use case? Do you agree with what I'm saying? Do you think that's No, exactly. Do you think John's crazy, crazy? I mean I all discourse, you got out of the box, engineer it yourself, but then now you're, when people do joint engineering project, right? They're different. Yeah, >>Yeah. No, I mean, you know, I think our partnership is a, is a testament to what you just said, right? When you think about how to achieve realtime insights, the data comes into the system and, and the customers and new applications want insights as soon as the data comes into the system. So what we have done is basically build an architecture that enables that we have our own storage and query engine indexing, et cetera. And so we've innovated in our indexing in our database engine, but we wanna go further than that. We wanna be able to exploit the innovation that's happening at ibm. A very good example is, for instance, we have a native connector with Cognos, their BI dashboards right? To reason data very natively. So we build a hyper efficient system that moves the data very efficiently. A very other good example is embedded ai. >>So IBM of course has built AI chip and they have basically advanced quite a bit into the embedded ai, custom ai. So what we have done is, is as a true marriage between the engineering teams here, we make sure that the data in single store can natively exploit that kind of goodness. So we have taken their libraries. So if you have have data in single store, like let's imagine if you have Twitter data, if you wanna do sentiment analysis, you don't have to move the data out model, drain the model outside, et cetera. We just have the pre-built embedded AI libraries already. So it's a, it's a pure engineering manage there that kind of opens up a lot more insights than just simple analytics and >>Cost by the way too. Moving data around >>Another big theme. Yeah. >>And latency and speed is everything about single store and you know, it couldn't have happened without this kind of a partnership. >>So you've been at IBM for almost two decades, don't look it, but at nearly 17 years in how has, and maybe it hasn't, so feel free to educate us. How has, how has IBM's approach to AI and ML evolved as well as looking to involve partnerships in the ecosystem as a, as a collaborative raise the water level together force? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think when we initially started ai, right? I think we are, if you recollect Watson was the forefront of ai. We started the whole journey. I think our focus was more on end solutions, both horizontal and vertical. Watson Health, which is more vertically focused. We were also looking at Watson Assistant and Watson Discovery, which were more horizontally focused. I think it it, that whole strategy of the world period of time. Now we are trying to be more open. For example, this whole embedable AI that CICE was talking about. Yeah, it's essentially making the guts of our AI libraries, making them available for partners and ISVs to build their own applications and solutions. We've been using it historically within our own products the past few years, but now we are making it available. So that, how >>Big of a shift is that? Do, do you think we're seeing a more open and collaborative ecosystem in the space in general? >>Absolutely. Because I mean if you think about it, in my opinion, everybody is moving towards AI and that's the future. And you have two option. Either you build it on your own, which is gonna require significant amount of time, effort, investment, research, or you partner with the likes of ibm, which has been doing it for a while, right? And it has the ability to scale to the requirements of all the enterprises and partners. So you have that option and some companies are picking to do it on their own, but I believe that there's a huge amount of opportunity where people are looking to partner and source what's already available as opposed to investing from the scratch >>Classic buy versus build analysis for them to figure out, yeah, to get into the game >>And, and, and why reinvent the wheel when we're all trying to do things at, at not just scale but orders of magnitude faster and and more efficiently than we were before. It, it makes sense to share, but it's, it is, it does feel like a bit of a shift almost paradigm shift in, in the culture of competition versus how we're gonna creatively solve these problems. There's room for a lot of players here, I think. And yeah, it's, I don't >>Know, it's really, I wanted to ask if you don't mind me jumping in on that. So, okay, I get that people buy a bill I'm gonna use existing or build my own. The decision point on that is, to your point about the path of getting the path of AI is do I have the core competency skills, gap's a big issue. So, okay, the cube, if you had ai, we'd take it cuz we don't have any AI engineers around yet to build out on all the linguistic data we have. So we might use your ai but I might say this to then and we want to have a core competency. How do companies get that core competency going while using and partnering with, with ai? What you guys, what do you guys see as a way for them to get going? Because I think some people probably want to have core competency of >>Ai. Yeah, so I think, again, I think I, I wanna distinguish between a solution which requires core competency. You need expertise on the use case and you need expertise on your industry vertical and your customers versus the foundational components of ai, which are like, which are agnostic to the core competency, right? Because you take the foundational piece and then you further train it and define it for your specific use case. So we are not saying that we are experts in all the industry verticals. What we are good at is like foundational components, which is what we wanna provide. Got it. >>Yeah, that's the hard deep yes. Heavy lift. >>Yeah. And I can, I can give a color to that question from our perspective, right? When we think about what is our core competency, it's about databases, right? But there's a, some biotic relationship between data and ai, you know, they sort of like really move each other, right? You >>Need, they kind of can't have one without the other. You can, >>Right? And so the, the question is how do we make sure that we expand that, that that relationship where our customers can operationalize their AI applications closer to the data, not move the data somewhere else and do the modeling and then training somewhere else and dealing with multiple systems, et cetera. And this is where this kind of a cross engineering relationship helps. >>Awesome. Awesome. Great. And then I think companies are gonna want to have that baseline foundation and then start hiring in learning. It's like driving the car. You get the keys when you're ready to go. >>Yeah, >>Yeah. Think I'll give you a simple example, right? >>I want that turnkey lifestyle. We all do. Yeah, >>Yeah. Let me, let me just give you a quick analogy, right? For example, you can, you can basically make the engines and the car on your own or you can source the engine and you can make the car. So it's, it's basically an option that you can decide. The same thing with airplanes as well, right? Whether you wanna make the whole thing or whether you wanna source from someone who is already good at doing that piece, right? So that's, >>Or even create a new alloy for that matter. I mean you can take it all the way down in that analogy, >>Right? Is there a structural change and how companies are laying out their architecture in this modern era as we start to see this next let gen cloud emerge, teams, security teams becoming much more focused data teams. Its building into the DevOps into the developer pipeline, seeing that trend. What do you guys see in the modern data stack kind of evolution? Is there a data solutions architect coming? Do they exist yet? Is that what we're gonna see? Is it data as code automation? How do you guys see this landscape of the evolving persona? >>I mean if you look at the modern data stack as it is defined today, it is too detailed, it's too OSes and there are way too many layers, right? There are at least five different layers. You gotta have like a storage you replicate to do real time insights and then there's a query layer, visualization and then ai, right? So you have too many ETL pipelines in between, too many services, too many choke points, too many failures, >>Right? Etl, that's the dirty three letter word. >>Say no to ETL >>Adam Celeste, that's his quote, not mine. We hear that. >>Yeah. I mean there are different names to it. They don't call it etl, we call it replication, whatnot. But the point is hassle >>Data is getting more hassle. More >>Hassle. Yeah. The data is ultimately getting replicated in the modern data stack, right? And that's kind of one of our thesis at single store, which is that you'd have to converge not hyper specialize and conversation and convergence is possible in certain areas, right? When you think about operational analytics as two different aspects of the data pipeline, it is possible to bring them together. And we have done it, we have a lot of proof points to it, our customer stories speak to it and that is one area of convergence. We need to see more of it. The relationship with IBM is sort of another step of convergence wherein the, the final phases, the operation analytics is coming together and can we take analytics visualization with reports and dashboards and AI together. This is where Cognos and embedded AI comes into together, right? So we believe in single store, which is really conversions >>One single path. >>A shocking, a shocking tie >>Back there. So, so obviously, you know one of the things we love to joke about in the cube cuz we like to goof on the old enterprise is they solve complexity by adding more complexity. That's old. Old thinking. The new thinking is put it under the covers, abstract the way the complexities and make it easier. That's right. So how do you guys see that? Because this end to end story is not getting less complicated. It's actually, I believe increasing and complication complexity. However there's opportunities doing >>It >>More faster to put it under the covers or put it under the hood. What do you guys think about the how, how this new complexity gets managed or in this new data world we're gonna be coming in? >>Yeah, so I think you're absolutely right. It's the world is becoming more complex, technology is becoming more complex and I think there is a real need and it's not just from coming from us, it's also coming from the customers to simplify things. So our approach around AI is exactly that because we are essentially providing libraries, just like you have Python libraries, there are libraries now you have AI libraries that you can go infuse and embed deeply within applications and solutions. So it becomes integrated and simplistic for the customer point of view. From a user point of view, it's, it's very simple to consume, right? So that's what we are doing and I think single store is doing that with data, simplifying data and we are trying to do that with the rest of the portfolio, specifically ai. >>It's no wonder there's a lot of synergy between the two companies. John, do you think they're ready for the Instagram >>Challenge? Yes, they're ready. Uhoh >>Think they're ready. So we're doing a bit of a challenge. A little 32nd off the cuff. What's the most important takeaway? This could be your, think of it as your thought leadership sound bite from AWS >>2023 on Instagram reel. I'm scrolling. That's the Instagram, it's >>Your moment to stand out. Yeah, exactly. Stress. You look like you're ready to rock. Let's go for it. You've got that smile, I'm gonna let you go. Oh >>Goodness. You know, there is, there's this quote from astrophysics, space moves matter, a matter tells space how to curve. They have that kind of a relationship. I see the same between AI and data, right? They need to move together. And so AI is possible only with right data and, and data is meaningless without good insights through ai. They really have that kind of relationship and you would see a lot more of that happening in the future. The future of data and AI are combined and that's gonna happen. Accelerate a lot faster. >>Sures, well done. Wow. Thank you. I am very impressed. It's tough hacks to follow. You ready for it though? Let's go. Absolutely. >>Yeah. So just, just to add what is said, right, I think there's a quote from Rob Thomas, one of our leaders at ibm. There's no AI without ia. Essentially there's no AI without information architecture, which essentially data. But I wanna add one more thing. There's a lot of buzz around ai. I mean we are talking about simplicity here. AI in my opinion is three things and three things only. Either you use AI to predict future for forecasting, use AI to automate things. It could be simple, mundane task, it would be complex tasks depending on how exactly you want to use it. And third is to optimize. So predict, automate, optimize. Anything else is buzz. >>Okay. >>Brilliantly said. Honestly, I think you both probably hit the 32nd time mark that we gave you there. And the enthusiasm loved your hunger on that. You were born ready for that kind of pitch. I think they both nailed it for the, >>They nailed it. Nailed it. Well done. >>I I think that about sums it up for us. One last closing note and opportunity for you. You have a V 8.0 product coming out soon, December 13th if I'm not mistaken. You wanna give us a quick 15 second preview of that? >>Super excited about this. This is one of the, one of our major releases. So we are evolving the system on multiple dimensions on enterprise and governance and programmability. So there are certain features that some of our customers are aware of. We have made huge performance gains in our JSON access. We made it easy for people to consume, blossom on OnPrem and hybrid architectures. There are multiple other things that we're gonna put out on, on our site. So it's coming out on December 13th. It's, it's a major next phase of our >>System. And real quick, wasm is the web assembly moment. Correct. And the new >>About, we have pioneers in that we, we be wasm inside the engine. So you could run complex modules that are written in, could be C, could be rushed, could be Python. Instead of writing the the sequel and SQL as a store procedure, you could now run those modules inside. I >>Wanted to get that out there because at coupon we covered that >>Savannah Bay hot topic. Like, >>Like a blanket. We covered it like a blanket. >>Wow. >>On that glowing note, Dre, thank you so much for being here with us on the show. We hope to have both single store and IBM back on plenty more times in the future. Thank all of you for tuning in to our coverage here from Las Vegas in Nevada at AWS Reinvent 2022 with John Furrier. My name is Savannah Peterson. You're watching the Cube, the leader in high tech coverage. We'll see you tomorrow.

>>Good morning live from Chicago. It's the cube on the floor at Ansible Fast 2022. This is day two of our wall to wall coverage. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. John, we're gonna be talking next in the segment with two alumni about what Red Hat and IBM are doing to give Ansible users AI superpowers. As one of our alumni guests said, just off the keynote stage, we're nearing an inflection point in ai. >>The power of AI with Ansible is really gonna be an innovative, I think an inflection point for a long time because Ansible does such great things. This segment's gonna explore that innovation, bringing AI and making people more productive and more importantly, you know, this whole low code, no code, kind of right in the sweet spot of the skills gap. So should be a great segment. >>Great segment. Please welcome back two of our alumni. Perry is here, the Chief scientist, IBM Research and IBM Fellow. And Tom Anderson joins us once again, VP and general manager at Red Hat. Gentlemen, great to have you on the program. We're gonna have you back. >>Thank you for having >>Us and thanks for joining us. Fresh off the keynote stage. Really enjoyed your keynote this morning. Very exciting news. You have a project called Project Wisdom. We're talking about this inflection point in ai. Tell the audience, the viewers, what is Project Wisdom And Wisdom differs from intelligence. How >>I think Project Wisdom is really about, as I said, sort of combining two major forces that are in many ways disrupting and, and really constructing many a aspects of our society, which are software and AI together. Yeah. And I truly believe it's gonna result in a se shift on how not just enterprises, but society carries forefront. And as I said, intelligence is, is, I would argue at least artificial intelligence is more, in some ways mechanical, if I may say it, it's about algorithms, it's about data, it's about compute. Wisdom is all about what is truly important to bring out. It's not just about when you bring out a, a insight, when you bring out a decision to be able to explain that decision as well. It's almost like humans have wisdom. Machines have intelligence and, and it's about project wisdom. That's why we called it wisdom. >>Because it is about being a, a assistant augmenting humans. Just like be there with the humans and, and almost think of it as behave and interact with them as another colleague will versus intelligence, which is, you know, as I said, more mechanical is about data. Computer algorithms crunch together and, and we wanna bring the power of project wisdom and artificial intelligence to developers to, as you said, close the skills gap to be able to really make them more productive and have wisdom for Ansible be their assistant. Yeah. To be able to get things for them that they would find many ways mundane, many ways hard to find and again, be an assistant and augmented, >>You know, you know what's interesting, I want to get into the origin, how it all happened, but interesting IBM research, well known for the deep tech, big engineering. And you guys have been doing this for a long time, so congratulations. But it's interesting here at this event, even on stage here event, you're starting to see the automation come in. So the question comes up, scale. So what happens, IBM buys Red Hat, you go raid the, the raid, the ip, Trevor Treasure trove of ai. I mean this cuz this is kind of like bringing two killer apps together. The Ansible configuration automation layer with ai just kind of a, >>Yeah, it's an amazing relationship. I was gonna say marriage, but I don't wanna say marriage cause I may be >>Last. I didn't mean say raid the Treasure Trobe, but the kind of >>Like, oh my God. An amazing relationship where we bring all this expertise around automation, obviously around IP and application infrastructure automation and IBM research, Richie and his team bring this amazing capacity and experience around ai. Bring those two things together and applying AI to automation for our teams is so incredibly fantastic. I just can't contain my enthusiasm about it. And you could feel it in the keynote this morning that Richie was doing the energy in the room and when folks saw that, it's just amazing. >>The geeks are gonna love it for sure. But here I wanna get into the whole evolution. Computers on computers, remember the old days thinking machines was a company generations ago that I think they've sold or went outta business, but self-learning, learning machines, computers, programming, computers was actually on your slide you kind of piece out this next wave of AI and machine learning, starting with expert systems really kind of, I'm almost say static, but like okay programs. Yeah, yeah. And then now with machine learning and that big debate was unsupervised, supervised, which is not really perfect. Deep learning, which now explores some things, but now we're at another wave. Take, take us through the thought there explaining what this transition looks like and why. >>I think we are, as I said, we are really at an inflection point in the journey of ai. And if ai, I think it's fair to say data is the pain of ai without data, AI doesn't exist. But if I were to train AI with what is known as supervised learning or or data that is labeled, you are almost sort of limited because there are only so many people who have that expertise. And interestingly, they all have day jobs. So they're not just gonna sit around and label this for you. Some people may be available, but you know, this is not, again, as I as Tom said, we are really trying to apply it to some very sort of key domains which require subject matter expertise. This is not like labeling cats and dogs that everybody else in the board knows there are, the community's very large, but still the skills to go around are not that many. >>And I truly believe to apply AI to the, to the word of, you know, enterprises information technology automation, you have to have unsupervised learning and that's the only way to skate. Yeah. And these two trends really about, you know, information technology percolating across every enterprise and unsupervised learning, which is learning on this very large amount of data with of course know very large compute with some very powerful algorithms like transformer architectures and others which have been disrupting the, the domain of natural language as well are coming together with what I described as foundation models. Yeah. Which anybody who plays with it, you'll be blown away. That's literally blown away. >>And you call that self supervision at scale, which is kind of the foundation. So I have to ask you, cuz this comes up a lot with cloud, cloud scale, everyone tells horizontally scalable cloud, but vertically specialized applications where domain expertise and data plays. So the better the data, the better the self supervision, better the learning. But if it's horizontally scalable is a lot to learn. So how do you create that data ops where it's where the machines are gonna be peaked to maximize what's addressable, but what's also in the domain too, you gotta have that kind of diversity. Can you share your thoughts on that? >>Absolutely. So in, in the domain of foundation models, there are two main stages I would say. One is what I'll describe as pre-training, which is think of it as the, the machine in this particular case is knowledgeable about the domain of code in general. It knows syntax of Python, Java script know, go see Java and so, so on actually, and, and also Yammel as well, which is obviously one would argue is the domain of information technology. And once you get to that level, it's a, it's almost like having a developer who knows all of this but may not be an expert at Ansible just yet. He or she can be an expert at Ansible but is not there yet. That's what I'll call background knowledge. And also in the, in the case of foundation models, they are very adept at natural language as well. So they can connect natural language to code, but they are not yet expert at the domain of Ansible. >>Now there's something called, the second stage of learning is called fine tuning, which is about this data ops where I take data, which is sort of the SME data in this particular case. And it's curated. So this is not just generic data, you pick off GitHub, you don't know what exists out there. This is the data which is governed, which we know is of high quality as well. And you think of it as you specialize the generic AI with pre-trained AI with that data. And those two stages, including the governance of that data that goes into it results in this sort of really breakthrough technology that we've been calling Project Wisdom for. Our first application is Ansible, but just watch out that area. There are many more to come and, and we are gonna really, I'm really excited about this partnership with Red Hat because across IBM and research, I think where wherever we, if there is one place where we can find excited, open source, open developer community, it is Right. That's, >>Yeah. >>Tom, talk about the, the role of open source and Project Wisdom, the involvement of the community and maybe Richard, any feedback that you've gotten since coming off stage? I'm sure you were mobbed. >>Yeah, so for us this is, it's called Project Wisdom, not Product Wisdom. Right? Sorry. Right. And so, no, you didn't say that but I wanna just emphasize that it is a project and for us that is a key word in the upstream community that this is where we're inviting the community to jump on board with us and bring their expertise. All these people that are here will start to participate. They're excited in it. They'll bring their expertise and experience and that fine tuning of the model will just get better and better. So we're really excited about introducing this now and involving the community because it's super nuts. Everything that Red Hat does is around the community and this is no different. And so we're really excited about Project Wisdom. >>That's interesting. The project piece because if you see in today's world the innovation strategy before where we are now, go back to say 15 years ago it was of standard, it's gotta have standard bodies. You can still innovate and differentiate, but yet with open source and community, it's a blending of research and practitioners. I think that to me is a big story here is that what you guys are demonstrating is the combination of research and practitioners in the project. Yes. So how does this play out? Cuz this is kind of like how things are gonna get done in the cloud cuz Amazon's not gonna just standardize their stack at at higher level services, nor is Azure and they might get some plumbing commonalities below, but for Project Project Wisdom to be successful, they can, it doesn't need to have standards. If I get this right, if I can my on point here, what do you guys think about that? React to that? Yeah, >>So I definitely, I think standardization in terms of what we will call ML ops pipeline for models to be deployed and managed and operated. It's like models, like any other code, there's standardization on DevOps ops pipeline, there's standardization on machine learning pipeline. And these models will be deployed in the cloud because they need to scale. The only way to scale to, you know, thousands of users is through cloud. And there is, there are standard pipelines that we are working and architecting together with the Red Hat community leveraging open source packages. Yeah. Is really to, to help scale out the AI models of wisdom together. And another point I wanted to pick up on just what Tom said, I've been sort of in the area of productizing AI for for long now having experience with Watson as well. The only scenario where I've seen AI being successful is in this scenario where, what I describe as it meets the criteria of flywheel of ai. >>What do I mean by flywheel of ai? It cannot be some research people build a model. It may be wowing, but you roll it out and there's no feedback. Yeah, exactly. Okay. We are duh. So what actually, the only way the more people use these models, the more they give you feedback, the better it gets because it knows what is right and what is not right. It will never be right the first time. Actually, you know, the data it is trained on is a depiction of reality. Yeah. It is not a reality in itself. Yeah. The reality is a constantly moving target and the only way to make AI successful is to close that loop with the community. And that's why I just wanted to reemphasize the point on why community is that important >>Actually. And what's interesting Tom is this is a difference between standards bodies, old school and communities. Because developers are very efficient in their feedback. Yes. They jump to patterns that serve their needs, whether it's self-service or whatever. You can kind of see what's going on. Yeah. It's either working or not. Yeah, yeah, >>Yeah. We get immediate feedback from the community and we know real fast when something isn't working, when something is working, there are no problems with the flow of data between the members of the community and, and the developers themselves. So yeah, it's, I'm it's great. It's gonna be fantastic. The energy around Project Wisdom already. I bet. We're gonna go down to the Project Wisdom session, the breakout session, and I bet you the room will be overflowed. >>How do people get involved real quick? Get, get a take a minute to explain how I would get involved. I'm a community member. Yep. I'm watching this video, I'm intrigued. This has got me enthusiastic. How do I get more confident with this opportunity? >>So you go to, first of all, you go to red hat.com/project Wisdom and you register your interests and you wanna participate. We're gonna start growing this process, bringing people in, getting ready to make the service available to people to start using and to experiment with. Start getting their feedback. So this is the beginning of, of a journey. This isn't the, you know, this isn't the midpoint of a journey, this is the begin. You know, even though the work has been going on for a year, this is the beginning of the community journey now. And so we're gonna start working together through channels like Discord and whatnot to be able to exchange information and bring people in. >>What are some of the key use cases, maybe Richie are starting with you that, that you think maybe dream use cases that you think the community will help to really uncover as we're looking at Project Wisdom really helping in this transformation of ai. >>So if I focus on let's say Ansible itself, there are much wider use cases, but Ansible itself and you know, I, I would say I had not realized, I've been working on AI for Good for long, but I had not realized the excitement and the power of Ansible community itself. It's very large, it's very bottom sum, which I love actually. But as I went to lot of like CTOs and CIOs of lot of our customers as well, it was becoming clear the use cases of, you know, I've got thousand Ansible developers or IT or automation experts. They write code all the time. I don't know what all of this code is about. So the, the system administrators, managers, they're trying to figure out sort of how to organize all of this together and think of it as Google for finding all of these automation code automation content. >>And I'm very excited about not just the use cases that we demonstrated today, that is beginning of the journey, but to be able to help enterprises in finding the right code through natural language interfaces, generating the code, helping Del us debug their code as well. Giving them predictive insights into this may happen. Just watch out for it when you deploy this. Something like that happened before, just watch out for it as well. So I'm, I'm excited about the entire life cycle of IT automation, Not just about at the build time, but also at the time of deployment. At the time of management. This is just a start of a journey, but there are many exciting use cases abound for Ansible and beyond. >>It's gonna be great to watch this as it unfolds. Obviously just announcing this today. We thank you both so much for joining us on the program, talking about Project wisdom and, and sharing how the community can get involved. So you're gonna have to come back next year. We're gonna have to talk about what's going on. Cause I imagine with the excitement of the community and the volume of the community, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Absolutely. >>This is absolutely exactly. You're excited about. >>Excellent. And you should be. Congratulations. Thank, thanks again for joining us. We really appreciate your insights. Thank you. Thank >>You for having >>Us. For our guests and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Barton and you're watching The Cube Lie from Chicago at Ansible Fest 22. This is day two of wall to wall coverage on the cube. Stick around. Our next guest joins us in just a minute.

(soft electronic music) >> Hey, everyone. Welcome to Miami. I feel like I should be singing that song. Lisa Martin here live with theCUBE at IFS Unleashed. We've been here all day having great conversations with IFS executives, their customers, their partners, lots a... You can hear probably the buzz behind me at the vibe here. Lot of great folks, 1500 plus here. People are excited to be back and to see what IFS has been up to the last few years. I'm pleased to welcome back one of our alumni who was here with us last time we covered IFS, Marne Martin joins us. The president, Service Management, EAM and Global Industry at IFS. Marne, it's great to have you back on theCUBE. >> Yeah, I'm so happy to be here, and thanks for joining us in Miami. Last time it was Boston. >> That's right. >> So definitely much warmer climate this time. >> Much warmer. (Marne laughs) Yes, much warmer. And people here are just smiles on faces. People are excited to be back. There's... But I shouldn't elude that IFS slow down at all during the pandemic. You did not. I was looking at the first half, 2022 financials that came out over the summer and AR are up 33%. So much recurring revenue as well. So your... The business is doing incredibly well. You've pivoted beautifully during the pandemic. Customers are happy. There's a lot of customers here. You guys talk a lot about the moment of service. I love that. Talk to the audience about what that is, and how you're enabling your customers to deliver that to their customers. >> Definitely. So, you know, it's amazing when you have these inflection points and it's a good opportunity, world conference to world conference to celebrate that. We've grown a lot, and the number of customers we've brought in, in tier one global customers as well as in our variety of the various regions around the world and different industry verticals is amazing. And, you know, the participation is what's making IFS be a better company, a better technology vendor as we focus on these industries. So is understanding moment of service. You know, we talk a lot, and certainly CIOs and IT buyers will talk about technology, but putting the technology to work has to be meaningful, not only to the returns that go to shareholders, but what it matters, what matters to the end customers, of our customers. And when we started thinking about the new branding of IFS, because we also rebranded in this time, we thought, "How does that mission crystallize in what we're doing for our customers, and how do we really start put bringing technology to life?" And that is where moment of service came. So it's very rare in our world that you actually come up with a sort of slogan or an objective as a company that not only mobilizes what we do internally here at IFS, delivering great moments of service to our customers, but also that tells a story of the customers to the end customer. You know, service, an area that I work in a lot, it's very obvious that you... We all know when we get a great moment of service, or sometimes a bad moment of service. So if you talk to service organizations, field service organizations, they understand what a moment of service is. But it's also thinking about how we enable the people delivering that great moment of service. Not just like doing a survey or what have you, but what are the digital tools that help them to deliver better moments of service proactively. >> Right. >> One of my pet peeves was always that even like, if you have a voice of the customer program or what have you, that you may get that reactive feedback perhaps to a CMO in an organization, but the insights don't really get actioned. So here, across the line of business applications that we sell, ERP Service Management, EAM, ITSM, or ESM, we're really thinking about with that moment of service, the objective of putting the technology to work. How do we facilitate that alongside the business growth of our customers, but also how do we take the insights they get from their end customers into the business models as well as the functional design, what we develop. So moment of service has become, say the heart of IFS as well as a way of understanding our customers better. >> Really understanding them at much deeper level- >> Correct. Correct. >> And a lot of organizations. Give me some examples of some of the insights that IFS has gleaned from its customers. How you've brought them internally to really evolve the technology. >> So I think what's important is a lot of times technology vendors may say they know their customers, right? If you think about what technology vendor we know with the 360 view of the customer. You know, understanding the customer is a lot more than understanding their renewal date as a software vendor. >> Yeah. (laughs) >> So we have to really think about the moments of service on what matters most at that point of service, right? And it will vary certainly by industry, but there also will be certain things that are very much the same. Like for example, if we, as a customer, can have an asset or a piece of equipment that never breaks, we're a happier customer. If it does break, we, of course, want it to be fixed the first time someone shows up. So those are the obvious things. But how you then fix or manifest that into a different way of utilizing and implementing the technology. Thinking also about taking the operational insights that you have on driving, what we call preventative or predictive maintenance, or maximizing what's called a first time fixed resolution. You know, being able to marry best practices with at times artificial intelligence and machine learning information, with also the operational and personal insights of the people doing the work really enriches the quality of the insights you have around that moment of service and how to recreate a great moment of service, or lessen a poor moment of service. >> Yeah. >> And it also changes a view of what are often IT-driven projects into what's the user feedback that also matters most to enable that. You know, with the talent shortage that we're seeing, you know, customer expectations have only increased. >> Yes. >> So we all know, and customers want great moments of service, but how do we enable the frontline workers, whether they're field service workers or others, to deliver against these expectations when they might be harried, and you know, having to do a lot more work because of talent shortage. So we want to think about what their needs are in a way that's more focused towards delivering that moment of service, that great customer experience. And of course, that always feeds back into brand loyalty, selling more profits, but really getting into it. And you know, the advantage of IFS is that we understand the domain expertise to do things from a UI UX, a business process, but also thinking about how we're developing, to answer your question, the artificial intelligence machine learning. Even thinking about how you put IoT to work in ways that really matter, because there's a lot of money spent on IT projects that actually don't deliver great moments of service, let alone actual business value. >> Right. I love the vertical specialization that IFS has. I was interviewing Darren Roos, your CEO, a little bit earlier today and I said, "You know, we see so many companies... So many vendors, like some of your competitors in the ERP Space, which whom you're outgrowing or growing faster than, or horizontally focused. And the vertical specialization that he was kind of describing how long it's been here really allows IFS to focus on its core competencies. But another thing that I'm hearing throughout the interviews I'm having today, and you just said the same thing, is that you're not just, "We need to meet the customer where they are." Everyone talks about that. You've actually getting the... You're developing and fostering the domain expertise. >> Yes. >> So whether you're talking with an energy company, aerospace and defense company, manufacturing, there's that one to one knowledge within IFS and its customer, or based in that industry that it can only imagine is maybe part of what's leading to, you know, that big increase in ARR that I talked about, the recurring revenue being so high. That domain expertise seems to be a differentiator from my lens. >> Well, let's even talk about how people build relationships, right? You know, we're having a conversation, so we're already having a higher value relationship, right? And that comes through with how vendors engage with their customers. You know, when you have seen your executives like Darren and myself, and Michael and Christian, who still care and really focus on what is most impactful. What is that moment of service? I'm sure Darren talked about the great moment of service book that we just released. >> Yes. >> So understanding at a more visceral and may I say, intimate moment with the customers, what matters most to them. And really working with what are developing, what we call the digital dream team within these customers that understand enough of where they're going in the objective, enables us to do a better job. And it's also where then, it's not only how we're partnering in the sales process implementation in the conventional ways, but product management. What is the most meaningful? How can we prioritize what makes the most impact? Obviously, there's cool stuff we want to do too, but you know, we really think about understanding the verticals and understanding where they're going. And you see that, for example, we're an absolute leader in mobile workforce management specifically, where we have what's called real time optimization. Super hard to do. No one else does it anymore except us. Great. There's other things where you'd say that, "Hey, some of the other vendors talk about this, right?" APM as a performance management or other things, but because they lack the true vertical specialization and the use cases and the ease to put it in, the adoption rate is low. >> Yeah. >> So, you know, in that case, APM might not be something we do only, but if we can actually help commercialize this, something that has a great deal of value in a superior way in that focus verticals, that's what it means to have industry specialization. Because if you spread yourself too thin, you know then, you'll end up with an AI or machine learning platform or something like that that you know, most companies don't have five years to try and configure, build out a Watson or something like that. I mean, most companies in this day and age, with the requirements of competitive pressure and supply chain pressures have to be nimble and have to be getting results fast. So the closest with the customers, the domain expertise, the understanding of what matters most, helps us to be faster to the value outcomes that our customers needs. It helps us to be more focused in what we're developing and also how we're developing. And ultimately, that does benefit us that, you know, we want to make sure that we're not only leading today, but you know, staying ahead of the game in the next 5 to 10 years, which will help us to grow. You know, we're certainly not a small company anymore. We're at a billion in revenue looking to be 2 billion and eventually 5 billion in revenue. >> Okay. >> So that already, you know, puts us well beyond unicorn status into one of the very few. But, you know, we want to take a different track even of how a service now or a sales force or SAP or even, you know, to some degree workday grew by making sure that we remain focused on these key verticals and not lose our focus. And they're plenty big enough verticals for us to achieve our growth goals. >> Well the growth has been impressive, as I mentioned the ARR app in the first half, and I was chatting with Darren earlier as I said, and I said, "Can you gimme any nuggets for a second half?" I imagine the trajectory is up onto the right. And he alluded to the fact that things are going quite well, but the focus there that you have with customers. Also, you talked about this and I had several customers on the program today. Rolls-Royce was here. Aston Martin was here. And it's very obvious that there is a... There was a uniqueness about the relationship that I saw- >> Yes. >> Especially with Rolls-Royce that I thought was quite, I mean, you talked about kind of that customer intimacy and that personalization, which people used to tolerate fragmented experiences. We don't tolerate those anymore. >> No. >> Nobody has the patience for that. >> No. And it's also, you know, this business isn't easy for a lot of these customers to stay ahead, right? You know, especially if you think about a tier one customer that's at the top of their category. How did they continue to innovate? And Rolls Royce and Aston Martin are really cool customers. You know, but we're also thinking about, you know, what are the up-and-comers? Or you know, we also get customers that have come to us because they've started falling behind in their sector because they haven't been able to digitalize and grow forward. You know, we work a lot with SAP customers. Darren, of course, came from SAP. But in that ecosystem and especially in the areas I work in a lot with service management, SAP customers, you know, that are focusing on ERP, you know, SAP hasn't been a great enabler of service management for them. So the SAP customers have actually fallen behind. And the ability to come to a lot of these new type of digitally based value-based service offerings really make aftermarket service revenues a lifeblood of their company. So even there where, you know, we might have in a different ERP choice, we're able to provide what's really the missing link for these tier one companies that they can't get anywhere else. And we see this also, you know, you've obviously Salesforce and CRM. A lot of Salesforce CRM customers. Microsoft with Dynamics also primarily ERP. But the focus and the specialization that we have is rare in the industry, but it's so impactful. >> Yeah. >> And you know, I would even venture to say that there's not a tier one company that has a lot of aftermarket service revenue, or attention on service revenue, or even that is trying to monetize their connected asset or IoT investment that can ignore IFS. >> Yeah. >> Because we are unique enough in our focus verticals that if they want to continue growing and that is a cornerstone of their growth, their customer, their moment of service, then they definitely need to look at IFS. >> Absolutely. Does IFS care that it's not as well known of a brand? I mean, I mentioned you guys are growing. Maybe I didn't mention this, number three in ERP, you are growing faster than the top two biggest competitors, which you mentioned SAP, Oracle as well, but those implementations can be quite complex. Does IFS care that you're doing so well? Darren talked about where you're winning, how you're being competitive, where you went. Do they care about being a big name brand, or is that really kind of not as important nearly as delivering those moments of service? >> So, you know, it's a mirrored question that you asked me, and therefore, I'll give you a multifaceted answer. (Lisa laughs) You know, ERP, we're very proud to be a top three vendor and I think over time we'll continue to dislodge SAP and Oracle in ERP, where companies want to make a different ERP choice, or they're consolidating or whatever. I think already in field service management, we're by far the number one and will continue to be that. And you actually see a lot of our ERP competitors that are dropping down and you seem a... There's not really a lot of what I'd call best-of-breed options other than IFS as well. So... And then enterprise asset management, I really think the opportunity for IFS is how we put technology to work in some of these advanced capabilities in ways that can be automated that is, for example, in IBM Maximo or Watson or what have you haven't been able to be. And then you have some other best-of-breed EAM customers that have kind of not continued innovating and things like that. So the lines where we are really building the brand recognition with the largest companies in the world might be anchored for now more around field service management, enterprise asset management. But of course that brand recognition comes back into ERP. >> Yeah. >> And there will be, you know, as we continue to innovate, as people make ERP decisions every 5, 7, 10 years as those buying cycles are, then it's important that we're using the leadership positions we have. And especially, you know, thinking about these verticals where the asset centric service nature is paramount to them either to meet their moment of service, or to meet their aftermarket service revenue goals that we get the recognition of IFS as being the leader. And all the, you know... And this is where I'll go to the next layer of your question that building that is something I pride myself on and I'll say that we're building the IFS brand recognition at three different levels. >> Okay. >> There's the C-level and the board level, which I'd say my top participation in Darren's keynote this morning was more targeted to messages that would go, you know, "How are you a smarter digital business? How does IFS help you to be that?" >> Yeah. >> Okay. Then we have the operational or kind of the doers in a digital dream team that are below C-level, maybe VPs or directors or SVPs, that actually have the objective of bringing in the new business models, the operational change, the new technology, putting it to work. And there, you know, you have aspects of what do they need now versus how do they change and how do they continue innovating in a way that is easy as possible. >> Yeah. >> And then you definitely need to focus also on the people that are hands-on with those end customers. >> The practitioners. Yeah. >> The people that not only are told about the moment of service, but live the moment of service, right? The actual users in the field. Maybe the dispatchers, you know, the people that are doing the maintenance or the service or things like that. So the domain expertise in how we build the brand recognition has to be in all those three constituencies. We want to make sure that the CEO and the board members know who IFS is. We want to make sure that the operational leaders and the IT leaders who actually are delivering the project trust us to deliver. >> Right. >> And are confident in our ability to deliver with our ecosystem. And then we want to make sure that we're delighting those users of the software that they can deliver the moment of service, not just the business value that we all want from technology, but really that we're enabling them to have a solution that they love. That they can enjoy doing their job, or at least feel that they're doing their job in a way that's helpful to them. >> Right. >> And that ties into the end customers getting the moment of service that we all want. >> Absolutely. Well, very much aligned with what I heard today. It sounds like there's a rock solid strategy across the board at IFS and you... Congratulations on the work that you've done to help put that in place and how it's been evolving. I can only imagine that those second half numbers are going to be fantastic. So we'll have to have you back on the show next year (Marne laughs) to see what else is new. >> Yeah, I can't wait. It's an absolute pleasure and- >> Likewise. >> You know, and really, we're so passionate about what we do here. >> Yes. >> You know, I think just as a final note, as we grow, we want to make sure that doubling the company, doubling the number of customers, that our customers still feel that intimacy and that care. >> Yes. >> Right? >> Yes. >> That they can access senior executives that aren't clueless about their used cases and their vertical and actually have the ability to help them. You know, one of the things I pride myself on is that we... Okay, ideally people choose IFS in the first instance. We have successful projects and move on. Sometimes though, we're taking failed projects from other vendors. >> Yes, right. >> And what I pride myself on, and we all do here at IFS, is that we get those projects live, with those customers live. You know, we have the grit. We have the domain expertise, we see it through. And that even if customers have failed to get the business value or the transformation, you know, in the areas that we specialize at IFS, they can come here and we get it done. >> Right, you got a trusted partner. >> And that's something- Yes, and that, you know, I know every vendor says that- >> They do, but- >> But the reality is that we live it. >> Yeah. >> And it doesn't mean we're perfect. No vendor's perfect. But you know, we have the dedication and the focus and the domain expertise to get it done. And that's what's ultimately driving us into these leadership positions, changing how IFS is viewed. You know, we have people now that are coming to IFS that are saying, "IFS is the only choice in service management if you really want to do this work." And, you know, again, we have to keep earning it. But that's great. >> Exactly. Well, congratulations on all of that. That customer intimacy is a unique differentiator, and it's something that is... It's very... It's a flywheel, right? It's very synergistic. We appreciate your time and your insights for joining us on the program today. Thank you, Marne. >> Absolutely a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming. >> Mine as well. For Marne Martin, I'm Lisa Martin. No relation. (Marne laughs) You're watching theCUBE live from Miami at IFS Unleashed. I'll be back after a short break, so don't go too far. (soft electronic music) (soft electronic music continues)

>>We're here live in Las Vegas with a cubes coverage of Amazon re Mars. It's a reinvent re Mars reinforced. The big three shows called the res. This is Mars machine learning, automation, robotic and space. It's a program about the future it and the future innovation around industrial cloud scale climate change the moon, a lot of great topics, really connecting all the dots together here in Las Vegas with Amazon re Mars I'm John ER, host of the cube. Our first guest is Howard Hughes program manager, necess Ryan program. Howard is involved with all the action and space and the moon project, which we'll get into Howard. Thanks for coming on the cube. >>Well, Hey, thanks for having me here this morning. Appreciate you guys inviting me here. >>So this show is not obvious to the normal tech observer, the insiders in, in the industry. It's the confluence of a lot of things coming together. It's gonna be obvious very soon because the stuff they're showing here is pretty impressive. It's motivating, it's positive and it's a force for change in good. All of it coming together, space, machine learning, robotics, industrial, you have one of the coolest areas, the space what's going on with your Orion program. You guys got the big moon project statement to >>Explain. Well, let me tell you, I'll start with Orion. Orion is our next human space craft. That's gonna take humans beyond low earth orbit and we're part of the broader Artis campaign. So Artis is our plan, our NASA plan to return the first person of color, first woman, back to the moon. And we're very excited to do that. We have several missions that I could talk to you about starting with in a very few months, Artis one. So Artis one is going to fly on the space launch system, which is gonna be the biggest rocket we call the mega rocket has been built since the Saturn five on top of the SLS is the Ryan spacecraft and that Ryan spacecraft houses four crew members for up to 21 days in deep space. And we'll have an unru test in a few months launch on the S SLS. And Orion's gonna go around the moon for up to 40 days on Aus two, we will have the first test of the humans on board Orion. So four people will fly on Aus two. We will also circle the moon for about 10 to 12 days. And then our third mission will be our landing. >>So the moon is back in play, obviously it's close to the earth. So it's a short flight, relatively speaking the Mars a little bit further out. I'll see everyone as know what's going on in Mars. A lot of people are interested in Mars. Moon's closer. Yes, but there's also new things going on around discovery. Can you share the big story around why the moon what's? Why is the moon so important and why is everyone so excited about it? >>Yeah. You, you know, you know, coming to this conference and talking about sustainability, you know, I mean it is exploration is I think ingrained in our DNA, but it's more than just exploration is about, you know, projecting human presence beyond our earth. And these are the stepping stones. You know, we talk about Amazon talked about day one, and I think about, we are on those very early days where we're building the infrastructure Ryans of transportation infrastructure, and we're gonna build infrastructure on the moon to learn how to live on a surface and how to utilize the assets. And then that's very important because you know, it's very expensive to carry fuel, to carry water and all the necessities that you need to survive as a human being and outer space. If you can generate that on the surface or on the planet you go to, and this is a perfect way to do it because it's very in your backyard, as I told you earlier. So for future mission, when you want to go to Mars, you're nine months out, you really wanna make sure you have the technologies and you're able to utilize those technologies robustly and in a sustainable way. >>Yeah, we were talking before you came on, came camera camping in your backyard is a good practice round. Before you go out into the, to the wilderness, this is kind of what's going on here, but there's also the discovery angle. I mean, I just see so much science going on there. So if you can get to the moon, get a base camp there, get set up, then things could come out of that. What are some of the things that you guys are talking about that you see as possible exploration upside? >>Yeah. Well, several things. One is power generation recently. We just released some contracts that from vision power, so long, sustainable power capability is very, very important. You know, the other technologies that you need utilize is regenerative, you know, air, water, things that are, you need for that, but then there's a science aspect of it, which is, you know, we're going to the south pole where we think there's a lot of water potentially, or, or available water that we can extract and utilize that to generate fuel. So liquid hydrogen liquid oxygen is one of the areas that are very interesting. And of course, lunar minerals are very exciting, very interesting to bring and, and, and be able to mine potentially in the future, depending on what is there. >>Well, a lot of cool stuff happening. What's your take on this show here, obviously NASA's reputation as innovators and deep technologists, you know, big moonshot missions, pun intended here. You got a lot of other explorations. What's this show bring together, share your perspective because I think the story here to me is you got walkout retail, like the Amazon technology, you got Watson dynamics, the dog, everyone loves that's walking on. Then you got supply chain, robotics, machine learning, and space. It all points to one thing, innovation around industrial. I think what, what, what's your, what's your, what's your take? >>You know, I think one of the things is, is, you know, normally we are innovating in a, in our aerospace industry. You know, I think there's so much to learn from innovation across all these areas you described and trying to pull some of that into the spacecraft. You know, when, when you're a human being sitting in spacecraft is more than just flying the spacecraft. You know, you have interaction with displays, you have a lot of technologies that you normally would want to interact with on the ground that you could apply in space to help you and make your tasks easier. And I think those are things that are really important as we look across, you know, the whole entire innovative infrastructure that I see here in this show, how can we extract some that and apply it in the space program? I think there is a very significant leveraging that you could do off of that. >>What are some of the look at what's going on in donors? What are some of the cool people who aren't following the day to day? Anything? >>Well, well, certainly, you know, the Artman's mission Artis campaign is one of the, the, the coolest things I could think of. That's why I came into, you know, I think wrapping around that where we are not only just going to a destination, but we're exploring, and we're trying to establish a very clear, long term presence that will allow us to engage. What I think is the next step, which is science, you know, and science and the, and the things that can, can come out of that in terms of scientific discoveries. And I think the cool, coolest thing would be, Hey, could we take the things that we are in the labs and the innovation relative to power generation, relative to energy development of energy technologies, robotics, to utilize, to help explore the surface. And of course the science that comes out of just naturally, when you go somewhere, you don't know what to expect. And I think that's what the exciting thing. And for NASA, we're putting a program, an infrastructure around that. I think that's really exciting. Of course, the other parts of NASA is science. Yeah. And so the partnering those two pieces together to accomplish a very important mission for everybody on planet earth is, is really important. >>And also it's a curiosity. People are being curious about what's going on now in space, cuz the costs are down and you got universities here and you got the, of robotics and industrial. This is gonna provide a, a new ground for education, younger, younger generation coming up. What would you share to teachers and potential students, people who wanna learn what's different about now than the old generation and what's the same, what what's the same and what's new. What's how does someone get their arms around this, their mind around it? Where can they jump in? This is gonna open up the aperture for, for, for talent. I mean with all the technology, it's not one dimensional. >>Yeah. I think what is still true is core sciences, math, you know, engineering, the hard science, chemistry, biology. I mean, I think those are really also very important, but what we're we're getting today is the amount of collaboration we're able to do against organically. And I think the innovation that's driven by a lot of this collaboration where you have these tools and your ability to engage and then you're able to, to get, I would say the best out of people in lots of different areas. And that's what I think one of the things we're learning at NASA is, you know, we have a broad spectrum of people that come to work for us and we're pulling that. And now we're coming to these kinds of things where we're kind getting even more innovation ideas and partnerships so that we are not just off on our own thinking about the problem we're branching out and allowing a lot of other people to help us solve the problems that >>We need. You know, I've noticed with space force too. I had the same kind of conversations around those with those guys as well. Collaboration and public private partnerships are huge. You've seen a lot more kind of cross pollination of funding, col technology software. I mean, how do you do break, fix and space at software, right? So you gotta have, I mean, it's gotta work. So you got security challenges. Yeah. This is a new frontier. It is the cybersecurity, the usability, the operationalizing for humans, not just, you know, put atypical, you know, scientists and, and, and astronauts who are, you know, in peak shape, we're talking about humans. Yeah. What's the big problem to solve? Is it security? Is it, what, what would you say the big challenges >>Are? Yeah. You know, I think information and access to information and how we interact with information is probably our biggest challenge because we have very limited space in terms of not only mass, but just volume. Yeah. You know, you want to reserve the space for the people and they, they need to, you know, you want maximize your space that you're having in spacecraft. And so I think having access to information, being able to, to utilize information and quickly access systems so you can solve problems cuz you don't know when you're in deep space, you're several months out to Mars, what problems you might encounter and what kind of systems and access to information you need to help you solve the problems. You know, both, both, both from a just unplanned kind of contingencies or even planned contingencies where you wanna make sure you have that information to do it. So information is gonna be very vital as we go out into deep >>Space and the infrastructure's changed. How has the infrastructure changed in terms of support services? I mean see, in the United States, just the growth of a aerospace you mentioned earlier is, is just phenomenal. You've got smaller, faster, cheaper equipment density, it solved the technology. Where's there gonna be the, the big game changing move movement. Where do you see it go? Is it AIST three? It kind of kicks in AIST ones, obviously the first one unmanned one. But where do in your mind, do you see key milestones that are gonna be super important to >>Watch? I think, I think, I think, you know, we've already, you know, pushed the boundaries of what we, we are, you know, in terms of applying our aerospace technologies for AIST one and certainly two, we've got those in, in work already. And so we've got that those vehicles already in work and built yeah. One already at the, at the Kennedy space center ready for launch, but starting with three because you have a lot more interaction, you gotta take the crew down with a Lander, a human landing system. You gotta build rovers. You've gotta build a, a capability which they could explore. So starting with three and then four we're building the gateway gateways orbiting platform around the moon. So for all future missions after Rist three, we're gonna take Aion to the gateway. The crew gets into the orbiting platform. They get on a human landing system and they go down. >>So all that interaction, all that infrastructure and all the support equipment you need, not only in the orbit of the moon, but also down the ground is gonna drive a lot of innovation. You're gonna have to realize, oh, Hey, I needed this. Now I need to figure out how to get something there. You know? And, and how much of the robotics and how much AI you need will be very interesting because you'll need these assistance to help you do your daily routine or lessen your daily routine. So you can focus on the science and you can focus on doing the advancing those technologies that you're gonna >>Need. And you gotta have the infrastructure. It's like a road. Yeah. You know, you wanna go pop down to the moon, you just pop down, it's already built. It's ready for you. Yep. Come back up. So just ease of use from a deployment standpoint is, >>And, and the infrastructure, the things that you're gonna need, you know, what is a have gonna look like? What are you gonna need in a habitat? You know, are, are you gonna be able to have the power that you're gonna have? How many station power stations are you gonna need? Right. So all these things are gonna be really, things are gonna be driven by what you need to do the mission. And that drives, I think a lot of innovation, you know, it's very much like the end goal. What are you trying to solve? And then you go, okay, here's what I need to solve to build things, to solve that >>Problem. There's so many things involved in the mission. I can imagine. Safety's huge. Number one, gotta be up safe. Yep. Space is dangerous game. Yes. Yeah. It's not pleasant there. Not for the faint of heart. As you say, >>It's not for the faint >>Heart. That's correct. What's the big safety concerns obviously besides blowing up and oxygen and water and the basic needs. >>I think, I think, you know, I think you, you said it very well, you know, it is not for the faint of heart. We try to minimize risk. You know, asset is one of the big, you're sitting under 8.8 million pounds of thrust on the launch vehicle. So it is going very fast and you're flying and you, and, and it's it's light cuz we got solid rocket motors too as well. Once they're lit. They're lit. Yeah. So we have a escape system on Orion that allows a crew to be safe. And of course we build in redundancy. That's the other thing I think that will drive innovation. You know, you build redundancy in the system, but you also think about the kind of issues that you would run into potentially from a safety perspective, you know, how you gonna get outta situation if you get hit by a meteor, right? Right. You, you, you are going through the band, Ellen belt, you have radiation. So you know, some of these things that are harsh on your vehicle and on, on the human side of this shop too. And so when you have to do these things, you have to think about what are you gonna protect for and how do you go protect for that? And we have to find innovations for >>That. Yeah. And it's also gonna be a really exciting air for engineering work. And you mentioned the data, data's huge simulations, running scenarios. This is where the AI comes in. And that seems to me where the dots connect from me when you start thinking about how to have, how to run those simulations, to identify what's possible. >>I think that's a great point, you know, because we have all this computing capability and because we can run simulations and because we can collect data, we have terabytes of data, but it's very challenging for humans to analyze at that level. So AI is one of the things we're looking at, which is trying to systematically have a process by which data is called through so that the engineering mind is only looking at the things and focus on things that are problematic. So we repeat tests, every flight, you don't have to look at all the terabytes of data of each test. You have a computer AI do that. And you allow yourself to look at just the pieces that don't look right, have anomalies in the data. Then you're going to do that digging, right. That's where the power of those kinds of technologies can really help us because we have that capability to do a lot of computing. >>And I think that's why this show to me is important because it, it, it shows for the first time, at least from my coverage of the industry where technology's not the bottleneck anymore, it's human mind. And we wanna live in a peaceful world with climate. We wanna have the earth around for a while. So climate change was a huge topic yesterday and how the force for good, what could come outta the moon shots is to, is to help for earth. >>Yeah. >>Yeah. Better understanding there all good. What's your take on the show. If you had to summarize this show, re Mars from the NASA perspective. So you, the essence space, what's the what's going on here? What's the big, big story. >>Yeah. For, for me, I think it's eyeopening in terms of how much innovation is happening across a spectrum of areas. And I look at various things like bossy, scientific robots that the dog that's walking around. I mean to think, you know, people are applying it in different ways and then those applications in a lot of ways are very similar to what we need for exploration going forward. And how do you apply some of these technologies to the space program and how do we leverage that? How do we leverage that innovation and how we take the innovations already happening organically for other reasons and how would those help us solve those problems that we're gonna encounter going forward as we try to live on another planet? >>Well, congratulations on a great assignment. You got a great job. I do super fun. I love being an observer and I love space. Love how at the innovations there. And plus space space is cool. I mean, how many millions of live views do you see? Everyone's stopping work to watch SpaceX land and NASA do their work. It's just, it's bringing back the tech vibe. You know what I'm saying? It's just, it's just, things are going you a good tailwind. Yeah. >>Congratulations. Thank you very much. >>Appreciate it on the, okay. This cube coverage. I'm John fur. You're here for the cube here. Live in Las Vegas back at reinvent reinforce re Mars, the reser coverage here at re Mars. We'll be back with more coverage after this short break.

>>Welcome to this exclusive discussion. IBM, the next three years of life sciences, innovation, precision medicine, advanced clinical data management and beyond. My name is Dave Volante from the Cuban today, we're going to take a deep dive into some of the most important trends impacting the life sciences industry in the next 60 minutes. Yeah, of course. We're going to hear how IBM is utilizing Watson and some really important in life impacting ways, but we'll also bring in real world perspectives from industry and the independent analyst view to better understand how technology and data are changing the nature of precision medicine. Now, the pandemic has created a new reality for everyone, but especially for life sciences companies, one where digital transformation is no longer an option, but a necessity. Now the upside is the events of the past 22 months have presented an accelerated opportunity for innovation technology and real world data are coming together and being applied to support life science, industry trends and improve drug discovery, clinical development, and treatment commercialization throughout the product life cycle cycle. Now I'd like to introduce our esteemed panel. Let me first introduce Lorraine Marshawn, who is general manager of life sciences at IBM Watson health. Lorraine leads the organization dedicated to improving clinical development research, showing greater treatment value in getting treatments to patients faster with differentiated solutions. Welcome Lorraine. Great to see you. >>Dr. Namita LeMay is the research vice-president of IDC, where she leads the life sciences R and D strategy and technology program, which provides research based advisory and consulting services as well as market analysis. The loan to meta thanks for joining us today. And our third panelist is Greg Cunningham. Who's the director of the RWE center of excellence at Eli Lilly and company. Welcome, Greg, you guys are doing some great work. Thanks for being here. Thanks >>Dave. >>Now today's panelists are very passionate about their work. If you'd like to ask them a question, please add it to the chat box located near the bottom of your screen, and we'll do our best to answer them all at the end of the panel. Let's get started. Okay, Greg, and then Lorraine and meta feel free to chime in after one of the game-changers that you're seeing, which are advancing precision medicine. And how do you see this evolving in 2022 and into the next decade? >>I'll give my answer from a life science research perspective. The game changer I see in advancing precision medicine is moving from doing research using kind of a single gene mutation or kind of a single to look at to doing this research using combinations of genes and the potential that this brings is to bring better drug targets forward, but also get the best product to a patient faster. Um, I can give, uh, an example how I see it playing out in the last decade. Non-oncology real-world evidence. We've seen an evolution in precision medicine as we've built out the patient record. Um, as we've done that, uh, the marketplace has evolved rapidly, uh, with, particularly for electronic medical record data and genomic data. And we were pretty happy to get our hands on electronic medical record data in the early days. And then later the genetic test results were combined with this data and we could do research looking at a single mutation leading to better patient outcomes. But I think where we're going to evolve in 2022 and beyond is with genetic testing, growing and oncology, providing us more data about that patient. More genes to look at, uh, researchers can look at groups of genes to analyze, to look at that complex combination of gene mutations. And I think it'll open the door for things like using artificial intelligence to help researchers plow through the complex number of permutations. When you think about all those genes you can look at in combination, right? Lorraine yes. Data and machine intelligence coming together, anything you would add. >>Yeah. Thank you very much. Well, I think that Greg's response really sets us up nicely, particularly when we think about the ability to utilize real-world data in the farm industry across a number of use cases from discovery to development to commercial, and, you know, in particular, I think with real world data and the comments that Greg just made about clinical EMR data linked with genetic or genomic data, a real area of interest in one that, uh, Watson health in particular is focused on the idea of being able to create a data exchange so that we can bring together claims clinical EMR data, genomics data, increasingly wearables and data directly from patients in order to create a digital health record that we like to call an intelligent patient health record that basically gives us the digital equivalent of a real life patient. And these can be used in use cases in randomized controlled clinical trials for synthetic control arms or natural history. They can be used in order to track patients' response to drugs and look at outcomes after they've been on various therapies as, as Greg is speaking to. And so I think that, you know, the promise of data and technology, the AI that we can apply on that is really helping us advance, getting therapies to market faster, with better information, lower sample sizes, and just a much more efficient way to do drug development and to track and monitor outcomes in patients. >>Great. Thank you for that now to meta, when I joined IDC many, many years ago, I really didn't know much about the industry that I was covering, but it's great to see you as a former practitioner now bringing in your views. What do you see as the big game-changers? >>So, um, I would, I would agree with what both Lorraine and Greg said. Um, but one thing that I'd just like to call out is that, you know, everyone's talking about big data, the volume of data is growing. It's growing exponentially actually about, I think 30% of data that exists today is healthcare data. And it's growing at a rate of 36%. That's huge, but then it's not just about the big, it's also about the broad, I think, um, you know, I think great points that, uh, Lorraine and Greg brought out that it's, it's not just specifically genomic data, it's multi omic data. And it's also about things like medical history, social determinants of health, behavioral data. Um, and why, because when you're talking about precision medicine and we know that we moved away from the, the terminology of personalized to position, because you want to talk about disease stratification and you can, it's really about convergence. >>Um, if you look at a recent JAMA paper in 2021, only 1% of EHS actually included genomic data. So you really need to have that ability to look at data holistically and IDC prediction is seeing that investments in AI to fuel in silico, silicone drug discovery will double by 20, 24, but how are you actually going to integrate all the different types of data? Just look at, for example, diabetes, you're on type two diabetes, 40 to 70% of it is genetically inherited and you have over 500 different, uh, genetic low side, which could be involved in playing into causing diabetes. So the earlier strategy, when you are looking at, you know, genetic risk scoring was really single trait. Now it's transitioning to multi rate. And when you say multi trade, you really need to get that integrated view that converging for you to, to be able to drive a precision medicine strategy. So to me, it's a very interesting contrast on one side, you're really trying to make it specific and focused towards an individual. And on the other side, you really have to go wider and bigger as well. >>Uh, great. I mean, the technology is enabling that convergence and the conditions are almost mandating it. Let's talk about some more about data that the data exchange and building an intelligent health record, as it relates to precision medicine, how will the interoperability of real-world data, you know, create that more cohesive picture for the, for the patient maybe Greg, you want to start, or anybody else wants to chime in? >>I think, um, the, the exciting thing from, from my perspective is the potential to gain access to data. You may be weren't aware of an exchange in implies that, uh, some kind of cataloging, so I can see, uh, maybe things that might, I just had no idea and, uh, bringing my own data and maybe linking data. These are concepts that I think are starting to take off in our field, but it, it really opens up those avenues to when you, you were talking about data, the robustness and richness volume isn't, uh, the only thing is Namita said, I think really getting to a rich high-quality data and, and an exchange offers a far bigger, uh, range for all of us to, to use, to get our work done. >>Yeah. And I think, um, just to chime, chime into that, uh, response from Greg, you know, what we hear increasingly, and it's pretty pervasive across the industry right now, because this ability to create an exchange or the intelligent, uh, patient health record, these are new ideas, you know, they're still rather nascent and it always is the operating model. Uh, that, that is the, uh, the difficult challenge here. And certainly that is the case. So we do have data in various silos. Uh, they're in patient claims, they're in electronic medical records, they might be in labs, images, genetic files on your smartphone. And so one of the challenges with this interoperability is being able to tap into these various sources of data, trying to identify quality data, as Greg has said, and the meta is underscoring as well. Uh, we've gotta be able to get to the depth of data that's really meaningful to us, but then we have to have technology that allows us to pull this data together. >>First of all, it has to be de-identified because of security and patient related needs. And then we've gotta be able to link it so that you can create that likeness in terms of the record, it has to be what we call cleaned or curated so that you get the noise and all the missing this out of it, that's a big step. And then it needs to be enriched, which means that the various components that are going to be meaningful, you know, again, are brought together so that you can create that cohort of patients, that individual patient record that now is useful in so many instances across farm, again, from development, all the way through commercial. So the idea of this exchange is to enable that exact process that I just described to have a, a place, a platform where various entities can bring their data in order to have it linked and integrated and cleaned and enriched so that they get something that is a package like a data package that they can actually use. >>And it's easy to plug into their, into their studies or into their use cases. And I think a really important component of this is that it's gotta be a place where various third parties can feel comfortable bringing their data together in order to match it with other third parties. That is a, a real value, uh, that the industry is increasingly saying would be important to them is, is the ability to bring in those third-party data sets and be able to link them and create these, these various data products. So that's really the idea of the data exchange is that you can benefit from accessing data, as Greg mentioned in catalogs that maybe are across these various silos so that you can do the kind of work that you need. And that we take a lot of the hard work out of it. I like to give an example. >>We spoke with one of our clients at one of the large pharma companies. And, uh, I think he expressed it very well. He said, what I'd like to do is have like a complete dataset of lupus. Lupus is an autoimmune condition. And I've just like to have like the quintessential lupus dataset that I can use to run any number of use cases across it. You know, whether it's looking at my phase one trial, whether it's selecting patients and enriching for later stage trials, whether it's understanding patient responses to different therapies as I designed my studies. And so, you know, this idea of adding in therapeutic area indication, specific data sets and being able to create that for the industry in the meta mentioned, being able to do that, for example, in diabetes, that's how pharma clients need to have their needs met is through taking the hard workout, bringing the data together, having it very therapeutically enriched so that they can use it very easily. >>Thank you for that detail and the meta. I mean, you can't do this with humans at scale in technology of all the things that Lorraine was talking about, the enrichment, the provenance, the quality, and of course, it's got to be governed. You've got to protect the privacy privacy humans just can't do all that at massive scale. Can it really tech that's where technology comes in? Doesn't it and automation. >>Absolutely. >>I, couldn't more, I think the biggest, you know, whether you talk about precision medicine or you talk about decentralized trials, I think there's been a lot of hype around these terms, but what is really important to remember is technology is the game changer and bringing all that data together is really going to be the key enabler. So multimodal data integration, looking at things like security or federated learning, or also when you're talking about leveraging AI, you're not talking about things like bias or other aspects around that are, are critical components that need to be addressed. I think the industry is, uh, it's partly, still trying to figure out the right use cases. So it's one part is getting together the data, but also getting together the right data. Um, I think data interoperability is going to be the absolute game changer for enabling this. Uh, but yes, um, absolutely. I can, I can really couldn't agree more with what Lorraine just said, that it's bringing all those different aspects of data together to really drive that precision medicine strategy. >>Excellent. Hey Greg, let's talk about protocols decentralized clinical trials. You know, they're not new to life silences, but, but the adoption of DCTs is of course sped up due to the pandemic we've had to make trade-offs obviously, and the risk is clearly worth it, but you're going to continue to be a primary approach as we enter 2022. What are the opportunities that you see to improve? How DCTs are designed and executed? >>I see a couple opportunities to improve in this area. The first is, uh, back to technology. The infrastructure around clinical trials has, has evolved over the years. Uh, but now you're talking about moving away from kind of site focus to the patient focus. Uh, so with that, you have to build out a new set of tools that would help. So for example, one would be novel trial, recruitment, and screening, you know, how do you, how do you find patients and how do you screen them to see if are they, are they really a fit for, for this protocol? Another example, uh, very important documents that we have to get is, uh, you know, the e-consent that someone's says, yes, I'm, well, I understand this study and I'm willing to do it, have to do that in a more remote way than, than we've done in the past. >>Um, the exciting area, I think, is the use of, uh, eco, uh, E-Pro where we capture data from the patient using apps, devices, sensors. And I think all of these capabilities will bring a new way of, of getting data faster, uh, in, in this kind of model. But the exciting thing from, uh, our perspective at Lily is it's going to bring more data about the patient from the patient, not just from the healthcare provider side, it's going to bring real data from these apps, devices and sensors. The second thing I think is using real-world data to identify patients, to also improve protocols. We run scenarios today, looking at what's the impact. If you change a cut point on a, a lab or a biomarker to see how that would affect, uh, potential enrollment of patients. So it, it definitely the real-world data can be used to, to make decisions, you know, how you improve these protocols. >>But the thing that we've been at the challenge we've been after that this probably offers the biggest is using real-world data to identify patients as we move away from large academic centers that we've used for years as our sites. Um, you can maybe get more patients who are from the rural areas of our countries or not near these large, uh, uh, academic centers. And we think it'll bring a little more diversity to the population, uh, who who's, uh, eligible, but also we have their data, so we can see if they really fit the criteria and the probability they are a fit for the trial is much higher than >>Right. Lorraine. I mean, your clients must be really pushing you to help them improve DCTs what are you seeing in the field? >>Yes, in fact, we just attended the inaugural meeting of the de-central trials research Alliance in, uh, in Boston about two weeks ago where, uh, all of the industry came together, pharma companies, uh, consulting vendors, just everyone who's been in this industry working to help define de-central trials and, um, think through what its potential is. Think through various models in order to enable it, because again, a nascent concept that I think COVID has spurred into action. Um, but it is important to take a look at the definition of DCT. I think there are those entities that describe it as accessing data directly from the patient. I think that is a component of it, but I think it's much broader than that. To me, it's about really looking at workflows and processes of bringing data in from various remote locations and enabling the whole ecosystem to work much more effectively along the data continuum. >>So a DCT is all around being able to make a site more effective, whether it's being able to administer a tele visit or the way that they're getting data into the electronic data captures. So I think we have to take a look at the, the workflows and the operating models for enabling de-central trials and a lot of what we're doing with our own technology. Greg mentioned the idea of electronic consent of being able to do electronic patient reported outcomes, other collection of data directly from the patient wearables tele-health. So these are all data acquisition, methodologies, and technologies that, that we are enabling in order to get the best of the data into the electronic data capture system. So edit can be put together and processed and submitted to the FDA for regulatory use for clinical trial type submission. So we're working on that. I think the other thing that's happening is the ability to be much more flexible and be able to have more cloud-based storage allows you to be much more inter-operable to allow API APIs in order to bring in the various types of data. >>So we're really looking at technology that can make us much more fluid and flexible and accommodating to all the ways that people live and work and manage their health, because we have to reflect that in the way we collect those data types. So that's a lot of what we're, what we're focused on. And in talking with our clients, we spend also a lot of time trying to understand along the, let's say de-central clinical trials continuum, you know, w where are they? And I know Namita is going to talk a little bit about research that they've done in terms of that adoption curve, but because COVID sort of forced us into being able to collect data in more remote fashion in order to allow some of these clinical trials to continue during COVID when a lot of them had to stop. What we want to make sure is that we understand and can codify some of those best practices and that we can help our clients enable that because the worst thing that would happen would be to have made some of that progress in that direction. >>But then when COVID is over to go back to the old ways of doing things and not bring some of those best practices forward, and we actually hear from some of our clients in the pharma industry, that they worry about that as well, because we don't yet have a system for operationalizing a de-central trial. And so we really have to think about the protocol it's designed, the indication, the types of patients, what makes sense to decentralize, what makes sense to still continue to collect data in a more traditional fashion. So we're spending a lot of time advising and consulting with our patients, as well as, I mean, with our clients, as well as CRS, um, on what the best model is in terms of their, their portfolio of studies. And I think that's a really important aspect of trying to accelerate the adoption is making sure that what we're doing is fit for purpose, just because you can use technology doesn't mean you should, it really still does require human beings to think about the problem and solve them in a very practical way. >>Great, thank you for that. Lorraine. I want to pick up on some things that Lorraine was just saying. And then back to what Greg was saying about, uh, uh, DCTs becoming more patient centric, you had a prediction or IDC, did I presume your fingerprints were on it? Uh, that by 20 25, 70 5% of trials will be patient-centric decentralized clinical trials, 90% will be hybrid. So maybe you could help us understand that relationship and what types of innovations are going to be needed to support that evolution of DCT. >>Thanks, Dave. Yeah. Um, you know, sorry, I, I certainly believe that, uh, you know, uh, Lorraine was pointing out of bringing up a very important point. It's about being able to continue what you have learned in over the past two years, I feel this, you know, it was not really a digital revolution. It was an attitude. The revolution that this industry underwent, um, technology existed just as clinical trials exist as drugs exist, but there was a proof of concept that technology works that this model is working. So I think that what, for example, telehealth, um, did for, for healthcare, you know, transition from, from care, anywhere care, anytime, anywhere, and even becoming predictive. That's what the decentralized clinical trials model is doing for clinical trials today. Great points again, that you have to really look at where it's being applied. You just can't randomly apply it across clinical trials. >>And this is where the industry is maturing the complexity. Um, you know, some people think decentralized trials are very simple. You just go and implement these centralized clinical trials, but it's not that simple as it it's being able to define, which are the right technologies for that specific, um, therapeutic area for that specific phase of the study. It's being also a very important point is bringing in the patient's voice into the process. Hey, I had my first telehealth visit sometime last year and I was absolutely thrilled about it. I said, no time wasted. I mean, everything's done in half an hour, but not all patients want that. Some want to consider going back and you, again, need to customize your de-centralized trials model to, to the, to the type of patient population, the demographics that you're dealing with. So there are multiple factors. Um, also stepping back, you know, Lorraine mentioned they're consulting with, uh, with their clients, advising them. >>And I think a lot of, um, a lot of companies are still evolving in their maturity in DCTs though. There's a lot of boys about it. Not everyone is very mature in it. So it's, I think it, one thing everyone's kind of agreeing with is yes, we want to do it, but it's really about how do we go about it? How do we make this a flexible and scalable modern model? How do we integrate the patient's voice into the process? What are the KPIs that we define the key performance indicators that we define? Do we have a playbook to implement this model to make it a scalable model? And, you know, finally, I think what organizations really need to look at is kind of developing a de-centralized mature maturity scoring model, so that I assess where I am today and use that playbook to define, how am I going to move down the line to me reach the next level of maturity. Those were some of my thoughts. Right? >>Excellent. And now remember you, if you have any questions, use the chat box below to submit those questions. We have some questions coming in from the audience. >>At one point to that, I think one common thread between the earlier discussion around precision medicine and around decentralized trials really is data interoperability. It is going to be a big game changer to, to enable both of these pieces. Sorry. Thanks, Dave. >>Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So again, put your questions in the chat box. I'm actually going to go to one of the questions from the audience. I get some other questions as well, but when you think about all the new data types that are coming in from social media, omics wearables. So the question is with greater access to these new types of data, what trends are you seeing from pharma device as far as developing capabilities to effectively manage and analyze these novel data types? Is there anything that you guys are seeing, um, that you can share in terms of best practice or advice >>I'll offer up? One thing, I think the interoperability isn't quite there today. So, so what's that mean you can take some of those data sources. You mentioned, uh, some Omix data with, uh, some health claims data and it's the, we spend too much time and in our space putting data to gather the behind the scenes, I think the stat is 80% of the time is assembling the data 20% analyzing. And we've had conversations here at Lilly about how do we get to 80% of the time is doing analysis. And it really requires us to think, take a step back and think about when you create a, uh, a health record, you really have to be, have the same plugins so that, you know, data can be put together very easily, like Lorraine mentioned earlier. And that comes back to investing in as an industry and standards so that, you know, you have some of data standard, we all can agree upon. And then those plugs get a lot easier and we can spend our time figuring out how to make, uh, people's lives better with healthcare analysis versus putting data together, which is not a lot of fun behind the scenes. >>Other thoughts on, um, on, on how to take advantage of sort of novel data coming from things like devices in the nose that you guys are seeing. >>I could jump in there on your end. Did you want to go ahead? Okay. So, uh, I mean, I think there's huge value that's being seen, uh, in leveraging those multiple data types. I think one area you're seeing is the growth of prescription digital therapeutics and, um, using those to support, uh, you know, things like behavioral health issues and a lot of other critical conditions it's really taking you again, it is interlinking real-world data cause it's really taking you to the patient's home. Um, and it's, it's, there's a lot of patients in the city out here cause you can really monitor the patient real-time um, without the patient having coming, you know, coming and doing a site visit once in say four weeks or six weeks. So, um, I, and, uh, for example, uh, suicidal behavior and just to take an example, if you can predict well in advance, based on those behavioral parameters, that this is likely to trigger that, uh, the value of it is enormous. Um, again, I think, uh, Greg made a valid point about the industry still trying to deal with resolving the data interoperability issue. And there are so many players that are coming in the industry right now. There are really few that have the maturity and the capability to address these challenges and provide intelligence solutions. >>Yeah. Maybe I'll just, uh, go ahead and, uh, and chime into Nikita's last comment there. I think that's what we're seeing as well. And it's very common, you know, from an innovation standpoint that you have, uh, a nascent industry or a nascent innovation sort of situation that we have right now where it's very fragmented. You have a lot of small players, you have some larger entrenched players that have the capability, um, to help to solve the interoperability challenge, the standards challenge. I mean, I think IBM Watson health is certainly one of the entities that has that ability and is taking a stand in the industry, uh, in order to, to help lead in that way. Others are too. And, uh, but with, with all of the small companies that are trying to find interesting and creative ways to gather that data, it does create a very fragmented, uh, type of environment and ecosystem that we're in. >>And I think as we mature, as we do come forward with the KPIs, the operating models, um, because you know, the devil's in the detail in terms of the operating models, it's really exciting to talk these trends and think about the future state. But as Greg pointed out, if you're spending 80% of your time just under the hood, you know, trying to get the engine, all the spark plugs to line up, um, that's, that's just hard grunt work that has to be done. So I think that's where we need to be focused. And I think bringing all the data in from these disparate tools, you know, that's fine, we need, uh, a platform or the API APIs that can enable that. But I think as we, as we progress, we'll see more consolidation, uh, more standards coming into play, solving the interoperability types of challenges. >>And, um, so I think that's where we should, we should focus on what it's going to take and in three years to really codify this and make it, so it's a, it's a well hum humming machine. And, you know, I do know having also been in pharma that, uh, there's a very pilot oriented approach to this thing, which I think is really healthy. I think large pharma companies tend to place a lot of bets with different programs on different tools and technologies, to some extent to see what's gonna stick and, you know, kind of with an innovation mindset. And I think that's good. I think that's kind of part of the process of figuring out what is going to work and, and helping us when we get to that point of consolidating our model and the technologies going forward. So I think all of the efforts today are definitely driving us to something that feels much more codified in the next three to five years. >>Excellent. We have another question from the audience it's sort of related to the theme of this discussion, given the FDA's recent guidance on using claims and electronic health records, data to support regulatory decision-making what advancements do you think we can expect with regards to regulatory use of real-world data in the coming years? It's kind of a two-parter so maybe you guys can collaborate on this one. What role that, and then what role do you think industry plays in influencing innovation within the regulatory space? >>All right. Well, it looks like you've stumped the panel there. Uh, Dave, >>It's okay to take some time to think about it, right? You want me to repeat it? You guys, >>I, you know, I I'm sure that the group is going to chime into this. I, so the FDA has issued a guidance. Um, it's just, it's, it's exactly that the FDA issues guidances and says that, you know, it's aware and supportive of the fact that we need to be using real-world data. We need to create the interoperability, the standards, the ways to make sure that we can include it in regulatory submissions and the like, um, and, and I sort of think about it akin to the critical path initiative, probably, I don't know, 10 or 12 years ago in pharma, uh, when the FDA also embrace this idea of the critical path and being able to allow more in silico modeling of clinical trial, design and development. And it really took the industry a good 10 years, um, you know, before they were able to actually adopt and apply and take that sort of guidance or openness from the FDA and actually apply it in a way that started to influence the way clinical trials were designed or the in silico modeling. >>So I think the second part of the question is really important because while I think the FDA is saying, yes, we recognize it's important. Uh, we want to be able to encourage and support it. You know, when you look for example, at synthetic control arms, right? The use of real-world data in regulatory submissions over the last five or six years, all of the use cases have been in oncology. I think there've been about maybe somewhere between eight to 10 submissions. And I think only one actually was a successful submission, uh, in all those situations, the real-world data arm of that oncology trial that synthetic control arm was actually rejected by the FDA because of lack of completeness or, you know, equalness in terms of the data. So the FDA is not going to tell us how to do this. So I think the second part of the question, which is what's the role of industry, it's absolutely on industry in order to figure out exactly what we're talking about, how do we figure out the interoperability, how do we apply the standards? >>How do we ensure good quality data? How do we enrich it and create the cohort that is going to be equivalent to the patient in the real world, uh, in the end that would otherwise be in the clinical trial and how do we create something that the FDA can agree with? And we'll certainly we'll want to work with the FDA in order to figure out this model. And I think companies are already doing that, but I think that the onus is going to be on industry in order to figure out how you actually operationalize this and make it real. >>Excellent. Thank you. Um, question on what's the most common misconception that clinical research stakeholders with sites or participants, et cetera might have about DCTs? >>Um, I could jump in there. Right. So, sure. So, um, I think in terms of misconceptions, um, I think the communist misconceptions that sites are going away forever, which I do not think is really happening today. Then the second, second part of it is that, um, I think also the perspective that patients are potentially neglected because they're moving away. So we'll pay when I, when I, what I mean by that neglected, perhaps it was not the appropriate term, but the fact that, uh, will patients will, will, will patient engagement continue, will retention be strong since the patients are not interacting in person with the investigator quite as much. Um, so site retention and patient retention or engagement from both perspectives, I think remains a concern. Um, but actually if you look at, uh, look at, uh, assessments that have been done, I think patients are more than happy. >>Majority of the patients have been really happy about, about the new model. And in fact, sites are, seem to increase, have increased investments in technology by 50% to support this kind of a model. So, and the last thing is that, you know, decentralized trials is a great model and it can be applied to every possible clinical trial. And in another couple of weeks, the whole industry will be implementing only decentralized trials. I think we are far away from that. It's just not something that you would implement across every trial. And we discussed that already. So you have to find the right use cases for that. So I think those were some of the key misconceptions I'd say in the industry right now. Yeah. >>Yeah. And I would add that the misconception I hear the most about is, uh, the, the similar to what Namita said about the sites and healthcare professionals, not being involved to the level that they are today. Uh, when I mentioned earlier in our conversation about being excited about capturing more data, uh, from the patient that was always in context of, in addition to, you know, healthcare professional opinion, because I think both of them bring that enrichment and a broader perspective of that patient experience, whatever disease they're faced with. So I, I think some people think is just an all internet trial with just someone, uh, putting out there their own perspective. And, and it's, it's a combination of both to, to deliver a robust data set. >>Yeah. Maybe I'll just comment on, it reminds me of probably 10 or 15 years ago, maybe even more when, um, really remote monitoring was enabled, right? So you didn't have to have the study coordinator traveled to the investigative site in order to check the temperature of the freezer and make sure that patient records were being completed appropriately because they could have a remote visit and they could, they could send the data in a via electronic data and do the monitoring visit, you know, in real time, just the way we're having this kind of communication here. And there was just so much fear that you were going to replace or supplant the personal relationship between the sites between the study coordinators that you were going to, you know, have to supplant the role of the monitor, which was always a very important role in clinical trials. >>And I think people that really want to do embrace the technology and the advantages that it provided quickly saw that what it allowed was the monitor to do higher value work, you know, instead of going in and checking the temperature on a freezer, when they did have their visit, they were able to sit and have a quality discussion for example, about how patient recruitment was going or what was coming up in terms of the consent. And so it created a much more high touch, high quality type of interaction between the monitor and the investigative site. And I think we should be looking for the same advantages from DCT. We shouldn't fear it. We shouldn't think that it's going to supplant the site or the investigator or the relationship. It's our job to figure out where the technology fits and clinical sciences always got to be high touch combined with high-tech, but the high touch has to lead. And so getting that balance right? And so that's going to happen here as well. We will figure out other high value work, meaningful work for the site staff to do while they let the technology take care of the lower quality work, if you will, or the lower value work, >>That's not an, or it's an, and, and you're talking about the higher value work. And it, it leads me to something that Greg said earlier about the 80, 20, 80% is assembly. 20% is actually doing the analysis and that's not unique to, to, to life sciences, but, but sort of question is it's an organizational question in terms of how we think about data and how we approach data in the future. So Bamyan historically big data in life sciences in any industry really is required highly centralized and specialized teams to do things that the rain was talking about, the enrichment, the provenance, the data quality, the governance, the PR highly hyper specialized teams to do that. And they serve different constituencies. You know, not necessarily with that, with, with context, they're just kind of data people. Um, so they have responsibility for doing all those things. Greg, for instance, within literally, are you seeing a move to, to, to democratize data access? We've talked about data interoperability, part of that state of sharing, um, that kind of breaks that centralized hold, or is that just too far in the future? It's too risky in this industry? >>Uh, it's actually happening now. Uh, it's a great point. We, we try to classify what people can do. And, uh, the example would be you give someone who's less analytically qualified, uh, give them a dashboard, let them interact with the data, let them better understand, uh, what, what we're seeing out in the real world. Uh, there's a middle user, someone who you could give them, they can do some analysis with the tool. And the nice thing with that is you have some guardrails around that and you keep them in their lane, but it allows them to do some of their work without having to go ask those centralized experts that, that you mentioned their precious resources. And that's the third group is those, uh, highly analytical folks that can, can really deliver, uh, just value beyond. But when they're doing all those other things, uh, it really hinders them from doing what we've been talking about is the high value stuff. So we've, we've kind of split into those. We look at people using data in one of those three lanes and it, and it has helped I think, uh, us better not try to make a one fit solution for, for how we deliver data and analytic tools for people. Right. >>Okay. I mean, DCT hot topic with the, the, the audience here. Another question, um, what capabilities do sponsors and CRS need to develop in-house to pivot toward DCT? >>Should I jump in here? Yeah, I mean, um, I think, you know, when, when we speak about DCTs and when I speak with, uh, folks around in the industry, I, it takes me back to the days of risk-based monitoring. When it was first being implemented, it was a huge organizational change from the conventional monitoring models to centralize monitoring and risk-based monitoring, it needs a mental reset. It needs as Lorraine had pointed out a little while ago, restructuring workflows, re redefining processes. And I think that is one big piece. That is, I think the first piece, when, you know, when you're implementing a new model, I think organizational change management is a big piece of it because you are disturbing existing structures, existing methods. So getting that buy-in across the organization towards the new model, seeing what the value add in it. And where do you personally fit into that story? >>How do your workflows change, or how was your role impacted? I think without that this industry will struggle. So I see organizations, I think, first trying to work on that piece to build that in. And then of course, I also want to step back for the second to the, uh, to the point that you brought out about data democratization. And I think Greg Greg gave an excellent point, uh, input about how it's happening in the industry. But I would also say that the data democratization really empowerment of, of, of the stakeholders also includes the sites, the investigators. So what is the level of access to data that you know, that they have now, and is it, uh, as well as patients? So see increasingly more and more companies trying to provide access to patients finally, it's their data. So why shouldn't they have some insights to it, right. So access to patients and, uh, you know, the 80, 20 part of it. Uh, yes, he's absolutely right that, uh, we want to see that flip from, uh, 20%, um, you know, focusing on, on actually integrating the data 80% of analytics, but the real future will be coming in when actually the 20 and 18 has gone. And you actually have analysts the insights out on a silver platter. That's kind of wishful thinking, some of the industries is getting there in small pieces, but yeah, then that's just why I should, why we share >>Great points. >>And I think that we're, we're there in terms that like, I really appreciate the point around democratizing the data and giving the patient access ownership and control over their own data. I mean, you know, we see the health portals that are now available for patients to view their own records, images, and labs, and claims and EMR. We have blockchain technology, which is really critical here in terms of the patient, being able to pull all of their own data together, you know, in the blockchain and immutable record that they can own and control if they want to use that to transact clinical trial types of opportunities based on their data, they can, or other real world scenarios. But if they want to just manage their own data because they're traveling and if they're in a risky health situation, they've got their own record of their health, their health history, uh, which can avoid, you know, medical errors occurring. So, you know, even going beyond life sciences, I think this idea of democratizing data is just good for health. It's just good for people. And we definitely have the technology that can make it a reality. Now >>You're here. We have just about 10 minutes left and now of course, now all the questions are rolling in like crazy from the crowd. Would it be curious to know if there would be any comments from the panel on cost comparison analysis between traditional clinical trials in DCTs and how could the outcome effect the implementation of DCTs any sort of high-level framework you can share? >>I would say these are still early days to, to drive that analysis because I think many companies are, um, are still in the early stages of implementation. They've done a couple of trials. The other part of it that's important to keep in mind is, um, is for organizations it's, they're at a stage of, uh, of being on the learning curve. So when you're, you're calculating the cost efficiencies, if ideally you should have had two stakeholders involved, you could have potentially 20 stakeholders involved because everyone's trying to learn the process and see how it's going to be implemented. So, um, I don't think, and the third part of it, I think is organizations are still defining their KPIs. How do you measure it? What do you measure? So, um, and even still plugging in the pieces of technology that they need to fit in, who are they partnering with? >>What are the pieces of technology they're implementing? So I don't think there is a clear cut as answered at this stage. I think as you scale this model, the efficiencies will be seen. It's like any new technology or any new solution that's implemented in the first stages. It's always a little more complex and in fact sometimes costs extra. But as, as you start scaling it, as you establish your workflows, as you streamline it, the cost efficiencies will start becoming evident. That's why the industry is moving there. And I think that's how it turned out on the long run. >>Yeah. Just make it maybe out a comment. If you don't mind, the clinical trials are, have traditionally been costed are budgeted is on a per patient basis. And so, you know, based on the difficulty of the therapeutic area to recruit a rare oncology or neuromuscular disease, there's an average that it costs in order to find that patient and then execute the various procedures throughout the clinical trial on that patient. And so the difficulty of reaching the patient and then the complexity of the trial has led to what we might call a per patient stipend, which is just the metric that we use to sort of figure out what the average cost of a trial will be. So I think to point, we're going to have to see where the ability to adjust workflows, get to patients faster, collect data more easily in order to make the burden on the site, less onerous. I think once we start to see that work eases up because of technology, then I think we'll start to see those cost equations change. But I think right now the system isn't designed in order to really measure the economic benefit of de-central models. And I think we're going to have to sort of figure out what that looks like as we go along and since it's patient oriented right now, we'll have to say, well, you know, how does that work, ease up? And to those costs actually come down and then >>Just scale, it's going to be more, more clear as the media was saying, next question from the audiences, it's kind of a best fit question. You all have touched on this, but let me just ask it is what examples in which, in which phases suit DCT in its current form, be it fully DCT or hybrid models, none of our horses for courses question. >>Well, I think it's kind of, uh, it's, it's it's has its efficiencies, obviously on the later phases, then the absolute early phase trials, those are not the ideal models for DCTs I would say so. And again, the logic is also the fact that, you know, when you're, you're going into the later phase trials, the volume of number of patients is increasing considerably to the point that Lorraine brought up about access to the patients about patient selection. The fact, I think what one should look at is really the advantages that it brings in, in terms of, you know, patient access in terms of patient diversity, which is a big piece that, um, the cities are enabling. So, um, if you, if, if you, if you look at the spectrum of, of these advantages and, and just to step back for a moment, if you, if you're looking at costs, like you're looking at things like remote site monitoring, um, is, is a big, big plus, right? >>I mean, uh, site monitoring alone accounts for around a third of the trial costs. So there are so many pieces that fall in together. The challenge actually that comes when you're in defining DCTs and there are, as Rick pointed out multiple definitions of DCTs that are existing, uh, you know, in the industry right now, whether you're talking of what Detroit is doing, or you're talking about acro or Citi or others. But the point is it's a continuum, it's a continuum of different pieces that have been woven together. And so how do you decide which pieces you're plugging in and how does that impact the total cost or the solution that you're implementing? >>Great, thank you. Last question we have in the audience, excuse me. What changes have you seen? Are there others that you can share from the FDA EU APAC, regulators and supporting DCTs precision medicine for approval processes, anything you guys would highlight that we should be aware of? >>Um, I could quickly just add that. I think, um, I'm just publishing a report on de-centralized clinical trials should be published shortly, uh, perspective on that. But I would say that right now, um, there, there was a, in the FDA agenda, there was a plan for a decentralized clinical trials guidance, as far as I'm aware, one has not yet been published. There have been significant guidances that have been published both by email and by, uh, the FDA that, um, you know, around the implementation of clinical trials during the COVID pandemic, which incorporate various technology pieces, which support the DCD model. Um, but I, and again, I think one of the reasons why it's not easy to publish a well-defined guidance on that is because there are so many moving pieces in it. I think it's the Danish, uh, regulatory agency, which has per se published a guidance and revised it as well on decentralized clinical trials. >>Right. Okay. Uh, we're pretty much out of time, but I, I wonder Lorraine, if you could give us some, some final thoughts and bring us home things that we should be watching or how you see the future. >>Well, I think first of all, let me, let me thank the panel. Uh, we really appreciate Greg from Lily and the meta from IDC bringing their perspectives to this conversation. And, uh, I hope that the audience has enjoyed the, uh, the discussion that we've had around the future state of real world data as, as well as DCT. And I think, you know, some of the themes that we've talked about, number one, I think we have a vision and I think we have the right strategies in terms of the future promise of real-world data in any number of different applications. We certainly have talked about the promise of DCT to be more efficient, to get us closer to the patient. I think that what we have to focus on is how we come together as an industry to really work through these very vexing operational issues, because those are always the things that hang us up and whether it's clinical research or whether it's later stage, uh, applications of data. >>We, the healthcare system is still very fragmented, particularly in the us. Um, it's still very, state-based, uh, you know, different states can have different kinds of, uh, of, of cultures and geographic, uh, delineations. And so I think that, you know, figuring out a way that we can sort of harmonize and bring all of the data together, bring some of the models together. I think that's what you need to look to us to do both industry consulting organizations, such as IBM Watson health. And we are, you know, through DTRA and, and other, uh, consortia and different bodies. I think we're all identifying what the challenges are in terms of making this a reality and working systematically on those. >>It's always a pleasure to work with such great panelists. Thank you, Lorraine Marshawn, Dr. Namita LeMay, and Greg Cunningham really appreciate your participation today and your insights. The next three years of life sciences, innovation, precision medicine, advanced clinical data management and beyond has been brought to you by IBM in the cube. You're a global leader in high tech coverage. And while this discussion has concluded, the conversation continues. So please take a moment to answer a few questions about today's panel on behalf of the entire IBM life sciences team and the cube decks for your time and your feedback. And we'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) >> Despite its 70 to $80 billion total available market, computer storage is like a small town, everybody knows everybody else. We say in the storage world, there are a hundred people, and 99 seats. Infinidat is a company that was founded in 2011 by storage legend, Moshe Yanai. The company is known for building products with rock solid availability, simplicity, and a passion for white glove service, and client satisfaction. Company went through a leadership change recently, in early this year, appointed industry vet, Phil Bullinger, as CEO. It's making more moves, bringing on longtime storage sales exec, Richard Bradbury, to run EMEA, and APJ Go-To-Market. And just recently appointed marketing maven, Eric Hertzog to be CMO. Hertzog has worked at numerous companies, ranging from startups that were acquired, two stints at IBM, and is SVP of product marketing and management at Storage Powerhouse, EMC, among others. Hertzog has been named CMO of the year as an OnCon Icon, and top 100 influencer in big data, AI, and also hybrid cloud, along with yours truly, if I may say so. Joining me today, is the newly minted CMO of Infinidat, Mr.Eric Hertzog. Good to see you, Eric, thanks for coming on. >> Dave, thank you very much. You know, we love being on theCUBE, and I am of course sporting my Infinidat logo wear already, even though I've only been on the job for two weeks. >> Dude, no Hawaiian shirt, okay. That's a pretty buttoned up company. >> Well, next time, I'll have a Hawaiian shirt, don't worry. >> Okay, so give us the backstory, how did this all come about? you know Phil, my 99 seat joke, but, how did it come about? Tell us that story. >> So, I have known Phil since the late 90s, when he was a VP at LSA of Engineering, and he had... I was working at a company called Milax, which was acquired by IBM. And we were doing a product for HP, and he was providing the subsystem, and we were providing the fiber to fiber, and fiber to SCSI array controllers back in the day. So I met him then, we kept in touch for years. And then when I was a senior VP at EMC, he started originally as VP of engineering for the EMC Isilon team. And then he became the general manager. So, while I didn't work for him, I worked with him, A, at LSA, and then again at EMC. So I just happened to congratulate him about some award he won, and he said "Hey Herzog, "we should talk, I have a CMO opening". So literally happened over LinkedIn discussion, where I reached out to him, and congratulate him, he said "Hey, I need a CMO, let's talk". So, the whole thing took about three weeks in all honesty. And that included interviewing with other members of his exec staff. >> That's awesome, that's right, he was running the Isilon division for awhile at the EMC. >> Right. >> You guys were there, and of course, you talk about Milax, LSA, there was a period of time where, you guys were making subsystems for everybody. So, you sort of saw the whole landscape. So, you got some serious storage history and chops. So, I want to ask you what attracted you to Infinidat. I mean, obviously they're a leader in the magic quadrant. We know about InfiniBox, and the petabyte scale, and the low latency, what are the... When you look at the market, you obviously you see it, you talk to everybody. What were the trends that were driving your decision to join Infinidat? >> Well, a couple of things. First of all, as you know, and you guys have talked about it on theCUBE, most CIOs don't know anything about storage, other than they know a guy got to spend money on it. So the Infinidat message of optimizing applications, workloads, and use cases with 100% guaranteed availability, unmatched reliability, the set and forget ease of use, which obviously AIOps is driving that, and overall IT operations management was very attractive. And then on top of that, the reality is, when you do that consolidation, which Infinidat can do, because of the performance that it has, you can dramatically free up rack, stack, power, floor, and operational manpower by literally getting rid of, tons and tons of arrays. There's one customer that they have, you actually... I found out when I got here, they took out a hundred arrays from EMC Hitachi. And that company now has 20 InfiniBoxes, and InfiniBox SSAs running the exact same workloads that used to be, well over a hundred subsystems from the other players. So, that's got a performance angle, a CapEx and OPEX angle, and then even a clean energy angle because reducing Watson slots. So, lots of different advantages there. And then I think from just a pure marketing perspective, as someone has said, they're the best kept secret to the storage industry. And so you need to, if you will, amp up the message, get it out. They've expanded the portfolio with the InfiniBox SSA, the InfiniGuard product, which is really optimized, not only as the PBA for backup perspective, and it works with all the backup vendors, but also, has an incredible play on data and cyber resilience with their capability of local logical air gapping, remote logical air gapping, and creating a clean room, if you will, a vault, so that you can then recover their review for malware ransomware before you do a full recovery. So it's got the right solutions, just that most people didn't know who they were. So, between the relationship with Phil, and the real opportunity that this company could skyrocket. In fact, we have 35 job openings right now, right now. >> Wow, okay, so yeah, I think it was Duplessy called them the best kept secret, he's not the only one. And so that brings us to you, and your mission because it's true, it is the best kept secret. You're a leader in the Gartner magic quadrant, but I mean, if you're not a leader in a Gartner magic quadrant, you're kind of nobody in storage. And so, but you got chops and block storage. You talked about the consolidation story, and I've talked to many folks in Infinidat about that. Ken Steinhardt rest his soul, Dr. Rico, good business friend, about, you know... So, that play and how you handle the whole blast radius. And that's always a great discussion, and Infinidat has proven that it can operate at very very high performance, low latency, petabyte scale. So how do you get the word out? What's your mission? >> Well, so we're going to do a couple of things. We're going to be very, very tied to the channel as you know, EMC, Dell EMC, and these are articles that have been in CRN, and other channel publications is pulling back from the channel, letting go of channel managers, and there's been a lot of conflict. So, we're going to embrace the channel. We already do well over 90% of our business within general globally. So, we're doing that. In fact, I am meeting, personally, next week with five different CEOs of channel partners. Of which, only one of them is doing business with Infinidat now. So, we want to expand our channel, and leverage the channel, take advantage of these changes in the channel. We are going to be increasing our presence in the public relations area. The work we do with all the industry analysts, not just in North America, but in Europe as well, and Asia. We're going to amp up, of course, our social media effort, both of us, of course, having been named some of the best social media guys in the world the last couple of years. So, we're going to open that up. And then, obviously, increase our demand generation activities as well. So, we're going to make sure that we leverage what we do, and deliver that message to the world. Deliver it to the partner base, so the partners can take advantage, and make good margin and revenue, but delivering products that really meet the needs of the customers while saving them dramatically on CapEx and OPEX. So, the partner wins, and the end user wins. And that's the best scenario you can do when you're leveraging the channel to help you grow your business. >> So you're not only just the marketing guy, I mean, you know product, you ran product management at very senior levels. So, you could... You're like a walking spec sheet, John Farrier says you could just rattle it off. Already impressed that how much you know about Infinidat, but when you joined EMC, it was almost like, there was too many products, right? When you joined IBM, even though it had a big portfolio, it's like it didn't have enough relevant products. And you had to sort of deal with that. How do you feel about the product portfolio at Infinidat? >> Well, for us, it's right in the perfect niche. Enterprise class, AI based software defined storage technologies that happens run on a hybrid array, an all flash array, has a variant that's really tuned towards modern data protection, including data and cyber resilience. So, with those three elements of the portfolio, which by the way, all have a common architecture. So while there are three different solutions, all common architecture. So if you know how to use the InfiniBox, you can easily use an InfiniGuard. You got an InfiniGuard, you can easily use an InfiniBox SSA. So the capability of doing that, helps reduce operational manpower and hence, of course, OPEX. So the story is strong technically, the story has a strong business tie in. So part of the thing you have to do in marketing these days. Yeah, we both been around. So you could just talk about IOPS, and latency, and bandwidth. And if the people didn't... If the CIO didn't know what that meant, so what? But the world has changed on the expenditure of infrastructure. If you don't have seamless integration with hybrid cloud, virtual environments and containers, which Infinidat can do all that, then you're not relevant from a CIO perspective. And obviously with many workloads moving to the cloud, you've got to have this infrastructure that supports core edge and cloud, the virtualization layer, and of course, the container layer across a hybrid environment. And we can do that with all three of these solutions. Yet, with a common underlying software defined storage architecture. So it makes the technical story very powerful. Then you turn that into business benefit, CapEX, OPEX, the operational manpower, unmatched availability, which is obviously a big deal these days, unmatched performance, everybody wants their SAP workload or their Oracle or Mongo Cassandra to be, instantaneous from the app perspective. Excuse me. And we can do that. And that's the kind of thing that... My job is to translate that from that technical value into the business value, that can be appreciated by the CIO, by the CSO, by the VP of software development, who then says to VP of industry, that Infinidat stuff, we actually need that for our SAP workload, or wow, for our overall corporate cybersecurity strategy, the CSO says, the key element of the storage part of that overall corporate cybersecurity strategy are those Infinidat guys with their great cyber and data resilience. And that's the kind of thing that my job, and my team's job to work on to get the market to understand and appreciate that business value that the underlying technology delivers. >> So the other thing, the interesting thing about Infinidat. This was always a source of spirited discussions over the years with business friends from Infinidat was the company figured out a way, it was formed in 2011, and at the time the strategy perfectly reasonable to say, okay, let's build a better box. And the way they approached that from a cost standpoint was you were able to get the most out of spinning disk. Everybody else was moving to flash, of course, floyers work a big flash, all flash data center, etc, etc. But Infinidat with its memory cache and its architecture, and its algorithms was able to figure out how to magically get equivalent or better performance in an all flash array out of a system that had a lot of spinning disks, which is I think unique. I mean, I know it's unique, very rare anyway. And so that was kind of interesting, but at the time it made sense, to go after a big market with a better mouse trap. Now, if I were starting a company today, I might take a different approach, I might try to build, a storage cloud or something like that. Or if I had a huge install base that I was trying to protect, and maybe go into that. But so what's the strategy? You still got huge share gain potentials for on-prem is that the vector? You mentioned hybrid cloud, what's the cloud strategy? Maybe you could summarize your thoughts on that? >> Sure, so the cloud strategy, is first of all, seamless integration to hybrid cloud environments. For example, we support Outpost as an example. Second thing, you'd be surprised at the number of cloud providers that actually use us as their backend, either for their primary storage, or for their secondary storage. So, we've got some of the largest hyperscalers in the world. For example, one of the Telcos has 150 Infiniboxes, InfiniBox SSAS and InfiniGuards. 150 running one of the largest Telcos on the planet. And a huge percentage of that is their corporate cloud effort where they're going in and saying, don't use Amazon or Azure, why don't you use us the giant Telco? So we've got that angle. We've got a ton of mid-sized cloud providers all over the world that their backup is our servers, or their primary storage that they offer is built on top of Infiniboxes or InfiniBox SSA. So, the cloud strategy is one to arm the hyperscalers, both big, medium, and small with what they need to provide the right end user services with the right outside SLAs. And the second thing is to have that hybrid cloud integration capability. For example, when I talked about InfiniGuard, we can do air gapping locally to give almost instantaneous recovery, but at the same time, if there's an earthquake in California or a tornado in Kansas City, or a tsunami in Singapore, you've got to have that remote air gapping capability, which InfiniGuard can do. Which of course, is essentially that logical air gap remote is basically a cloud strategy. So, we can do all of that. That's why it has a cloud strategy play. And again we have a number of public references in the cloud, US signal and others, where they talk about why they use the InfiniBox, and our technologies to offer their storage cloud services based on our platform. >> Okay, so I got to ask you, so you've mentioned earthquakes, a lot of earthquakes in California, dangerous place to live, US headquarters is in Waltham, we're going to pry you out of the Golden State? >> Let's see, I was born at Stanford hospital where my parents met when they were going there. I've never lived anywhere, but here. And of course, remember when I was working for EMC, I flew out every week, and I sort of lived at that Milford Courtyard Marriott. So I'll be out a lot, but I will not be moving, I'm a Silicon Valley guy, just like that old book, the Silicon Valley Guy from the old days, that's me. >> Yeah, the hotels in Waltham are a little better, but... So, what's your priority? Last question. What's the priority first 100 days? Where's your focus? >> Number one priority is team assessment and integration of the team across the other teams. One of the things I noticed about Infinidat, which is a little unusual, is there sometimes are silos and having done seven other small companies and startups, in a startup or a small company, you usually don't see that silo-ness, So we have to break down those walls. And by the way, we've been incredibly successful, even with the silos, imagine if everybody realized that business is a team sport. And so, we're going to do that, and do heavy levels of integration. We've already started to do an incredible outreach program to the press and to partners. We won a couple awards recently, we're up for two more awards in Europe, the SDC Awards, and one of the channel publications is going to give us an award next week. So yeah, we're amping up that sort of thing that we can leverage and extend. Both in the short term, but also, of course, across a longer term strategy. So, those are the things we're going to do first, and yeah, we're going to be rolling into, of course, 2022. So we've got a lot of work we're doing, as I mentioned, I'm meeting, five partners, CEOs, and only one of them is doing business with us now. So we want to get those partners to kick off January with us presenting at their sales kickoff, going "We are going with Infinidat "as one of our strong storage providers". So, we're doing all that upfront work in the first 100 days, so we can kick off Q1 with a real bang. >> Love the channel story, and you're a good guy to do that. And you mentioned the silos, correct me if I'm wrong, but Infinidat does a lot of business in overseas. A lot of business in Europe, obviously the affinity to the engineering, a lot of the engineering work that's going on in Israel, but that's by its very nature, stovepipe. Most startups start in the US, big market NFL cities, and then sort of go overseas. It's almost like Infinidat sort of simultaneously grew it's overseas business, and it's US business. >> Well, and we've got customers everywhere. We've got them in South Africa, all over Europe, Middle East. We have six very large customers in India, and a number of large customers in Japan. So we have a sales team all over the world. As you mentioned, our white glove service includes not only our field systems engineers, but we have a professional services group. We've actually written custom software for several customers. In fact, I was on the forecast meeting earlier today, and one of the comments that was made for someone who's going to give us a PO. So, the sales guy was saying, part of the reason we're getting the PO is we did some professional services work last quarter, and the CIO called and said, I can't believe it. And what CIO calls up a storage company these days, but the CIO called him and said "I can't believe the work you did. We're going to buy some more stuff this quarter". So that white glove service, our technical account managers to go along with the field sales SEs and this professional service is pretty unusual in a small company to have that level of, as you mentioned yourself, white glove service, when the company is so small. And that's been a real hidden gem for this company, and will continue to be so. >> Well, Eric, congratulations on the appointment, the new role, excited to see what you do, and how you craft the story, the strategy. And we've been following Infinidat since, sort of day zero and I really wish you the best. >> Great, well, thank you very much. Always appreciate theCUBE. And trust me, Dave, next time I will have my famous Hawaiian shirt. >> Ah, I can't wait. All right, thanks to Eric, and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, and we'll see you next time. (bright upbeat music)

>>Machine intelligence is everywhere. AI is being embedded into our everyday lives, through applications, process automation, social media, ad tech, and it's permeating virtually every industry and touching everyone. Now, a major issue with machine learning and deep learning is trust in the outcome. That is the black box problem. What is that? Well, the black box issue arises when we can see the input and the output of the data, but we don't know what happens in the middle. Take a simple example of a picture of a cat or a hotdog for you. Silicon valley fans, the machine analyzes the picture and determines it's a cat, but we really don't know exactly how the machine determined that. Why is it a problem? Well, if it's a cat on social media, maybe it isn't so onerous, but what if it's a medical diagnosis facilitated by a machine? And what if that diagnosis is wrong? >>Or what if the machine is using deep learning to qualify an individual for a home loan and that person applying for the loan gets rejected. Was that decision based on bias? If the technology to produce that result is opaque. Well, you get the point. There are serious implications of not understanding how decisions are made with AI. So we're going to dig into the issue and the topic of how to make AI explainable and operationalize AI. And with me are two guests today, Shea speaky, who's the co-founder and COO of cognitive scale and long time friend of the cube and newly minted CEO of cognitive scale. Bob pitchy, Yano, gents. Welcome to the cube, Bob. Good to see you again. Welcome back on. >>Thanks for having us >>Say, let me start with you. Why did you start the company? I think you started the company in 2013. Give us a little history and the why behind cognitive scale. >>Sure. David. So, um, look, I spent some time, um, you know, through multiple startups, but I ended up at IBM, which is where I met Bob. And one of the things that we did was the commercialization of IBM Watson initially. And that led to, uh, uh, thinking about how do you operationalize this because of the, a lot of people thinking about data science and machine learning in isolation, building models, you know, trying to come up with better ways to deliver some kind of a prediction, but if you truly want to operationalize it, you need to think about scale that enterprises need. So, you know, we were in the early days, enamored by ways, I'm still in landed by ways. The application that takes me from point a to point B and our view is look as you go from point a to point B, but if you happen to be, um, let's say a patient or a financial services customer, imagine if you could have a raise like application giving you all the insights that you needed telling you at the right moment, you know, what was needed, the right explanation so that it could guide you through the journey. >>So that was really the sort of the thesis behind cognitive scale is how do you apply AI, uh, to solve problems like that in regulated industries like health care management services, but do it in a way that it's done at scale where you can get, bring the output of the data scientists, application developers, and then those insights that can be powered into those end applications like CRM systems, mobile applications, web applications, applications that consumers like us, whether it be in a healthcare setting or a financial services setting can get the benefit of those insights, but have the appropriate sort of evidence and transparency behind it. So that was the, that was the thesis for. >>Got it. Thank you for that. Now, Bob, I got to ask you, I knew you couldn't stay in the sidelines, my friend. So, uh, so what was it that you saw in the marketplace that Lord you back in to, to take on the CEO role? >>Yeah, so David is an exciting space and, uh, you're right. I couldn't stay on the sideline stuff. So look, I always felt that, uh, enterprise AI had a promise to keep. Um, and I don't think that many enterprises would say, you know, with their experience that yeah, we're getting the value that we wanted out of it. We're getting the scale that we wanted out of it. Um, and we're really satisfied with what it's delivered to us so far. So I felt there was a gap in keeping that promise and I saw cognitive scale as an important company and being able to fill that gap. And the reason that that gap exists is that, you know, enterprise AI, unlike AI, that relates to one particular conversational service or one particular small narrow domain application is really a team sport. You know, it involves all sorts of roles, um, and all sorts of aspects of a working enterprise. >>That's already scaled with systems of engagement, um, and, and systems of record. And we show up in the, with the ability to actually help put all of that together. It's a brown field, so to speak, not a Greenfield, um, and where Shea and Matt and Minosh and the team really focused was on what are the important last mile problems, uh, that an enterprise needs to address that aren't necessarily addressed with any one tool that might serve some members of that team? Because there are a lot of great tools out there in the space of AI or machine learning or deep learning, but they don't necessarily help come together to, to deliver the outcomes that an enterprise wants. So what are those important aspects? And then also, where do we apply AI inside of our platform and our capabilities to kind of take that operationalization to the next level, uh, with, you know, very specific insights and to take that journey and make it highly personalized while also making it more transparent and explainable. >>So what's the ICP, the ideal customer profile, is it, is it highly regulated industries? Is it, is it developers? Uh, maybe you could parse that a little bit. >>Yeah. So we do focus in healthcare and in financial services. And part of the reason for that is the problem is very difficult for them. You know, you're, you're working in a space where, you know, you have rules and regulations about when and how you need to engage with that client. So the bar for trust is very, very high and everything that we do is around trusted AI, which means, you know, thinking about using the data platforms and the model platforms in a way to create marketplaces, where being able to utilize that data is something that's provisioned in permission before we go out and do that assembly so that the target customer really is somebody who's driving digital transformation in those regulated industries. It might be a chief digital officer. It might be a chief client officer, customer officer, somebody who's really trying to understand. I have a very fragmented view of my member or of my patient or my client. And I want to be able to utilize AI to help that client get better outcomes or to make sure that they're not lost in the system by understanding and more holistically understanding them in a more personalized way, but while always maintaining, you know, that that chain of trust >>Got it. So can we get into the product like a little bit more about what the product is and maybe share, you can give us a census to kind of where you started and the evolution of the portfolio >>Look where we started there is, um, the application of AI, right? So look, the product and the platform was all being developed, but our biggest sort of view from the start had been, how do you get into the trenches and apply this to solve problems? And as well, pointed out, one of the areas we picked was healthcare because it is a tough industry. There's a lot of data, but there's a lot of regulation. And it's truly where you need the notion of being able to explain your decision at a really granular level, because those decisions have some serious consequences. So, you know, he started building a platform out and, um, a core product is called cortex. It's the, it's a software platform on top of this. These applications are built, but to our engagements over the last six, seven years, working with customers in healthcare, in financial services, some of the largest banks, the largest healthcare organizations, we have developed a software product to essentially help you scale enterprise AI, but it starts with how do you build these systems? >>Building the systems requires us to provide tooling that can help developers take models, data that exists within the enterprise, bring it together, rapidly, assemble this, orchestrate these different components, stand up. These systems, deploy these systems again in a very complex environment that includes, you know, on-prem systems as well as on the cloud, and then be able to done on APIs that can plug into an application. So we had to essentially think of this entire problem end to end, and that's poor cortex does, but extremely important part of cortex that didn't start off. Initially. We certainly had all the, you know, the, the makings of a trusted AI would be founded the industry wasn't quite ready over time. We've developed capabilities around explainability being able to detect bias. So not only are you building these end to end systems, assembling them and deploying them, you have as a first-class citizen built into this product, the notion of being able to understand bias, being able to detect whether there's the appropriate level of explainability to make a decision and all of that's embedded within the cortex platform. So that's what the platform does. And it's now in its sixth generation as we >>Speak. Yeah. So Dave, if you think about the platform, it really has three primary components. One is this, uh, uh, application development or assembly platform that fits between existing AI tools and models and data and systems of engagement. And that allows for those AI developers to rapidly visualize and orchestrate those aspects. And in that regard were tremendous partners with people like IBM, Microsoft H2O people that provide aspects that are helping develop the data platform, the data fabric, things like the, uh, data science tools to be able to then feed this platform. And then on the front end, really helping transform those systems of engagement into things that are more personalized with better recommendations in a more targeted space with explainable decisions. So that's one element that's called cortex fabric. There's another component called cortex certify. And that capability is largely around the model intelligence model introspection. >>It works, uh, across things that are of cost model driven, but other things that are based on deterministic algorithms, as well as rule-based algorithms to provide that explainability of decisions that are made upstream before they get to the black box model, because organizations are discovering that many times the data has, you know, aspects of dimensions to it and, and, and biases to it before it gets to the model. So they want to understand that entire chain of, of, uh, of decisioning before it gets there. And then there's the notion of some pew, preacher rated applications and blueprints to rapidly deliver outcomes in some key repeating areas like customer experience or like lead generation. Um, those elements where almost every customer we engage with, who is thinking about digital transformation wants to start by providing better client experience. They want to reduce costs. They want to have operational savings while driving up things like NPS and improving the outcomes for the people they're serving. So we have those sets of applications that we built over time that imagine that being that first use application, that starter set, that also trains the customer on how to you utilize this operational platform. And then they're off to the races building out those next use cases. So what we see as one typical insertion place play that returns value, and then they're scaling rapidly. Now I want to cover some secret sauce inside of the platform. >>Yeah. So before you do, I think, I just want to clarify, so the cortex fabric, cause that's really where I wanted to go next, but the cortex fabric, it seems like that's the way in which you're helping people operationalize inject use familiar tooling. It sounds like, am I correct? That the cortex certify is where you're kind of peeling the onion of that complicated, whether it's deep learning or neural networks, which is that's where the black box exists. Maybe you could tell us, you know, is that where the secret sauce lives, if not, where is it? And if >>It actually is in all places right though. So there's some really important, uh, introductions of capabilities, because like I mentioned, many times these, uh, regulated industries have been developed and highly fragmented pillars. Just think about the insurance companies between property casualty and personal lines. Um, many times they have grown through acquisition. So they have these systems of record that are, that are really delivering the operational aspects of the company's products, but the customers are sometimes lost in the scenes. And so they've built master data management capabilities and data warehouse capabilities to try to serve that. But they find that when they then go to apply AI across some of those curated data environments, it's still not sufficient. So we developed an element of being able to rapidly assemble what we call a profile of one. It's a very, very intimate profile around declared data sources, uh, that relate to a key business entity. >>In most cases, it's a person, it's a member, it's a patient, it's a client, but it can be a product for some of our clients. It's real estate. Uh, it's a listing. Um, you know, it can be someone who's enjoying a theme park. It can be someone who's a shopper in a grocery store. Um, it can be a region. So it's any key business entity. And one of the places where we applied our AI knowledge is by being able to extract key information out of these declared systems and then start to make longitudinal observations about those systems and to learn about them. And then line those up with prediction engines that both we supply as well as third parties and the customers themselves supply them. So in this theme of operationalization, they're constantly coming up with new innovations or a new model that they might want to interject into that engagement application. Our platform with this profile of one allows them to align that model directly into that profile, get the benefits of what we've already done, but then also continue to enhance, differentiate and provide even greater, uh, greater value to that client. IBM is providing aspects of those models that we can plug in. And many of our clients are that's really >>Well. That's interesting. So that profile of one is kind of the instantiation of that secret sauce, but you mentioned like master data management data warehouse, and, you know, as well as I do Bob we've we've we've decades of failures trying to get a 360 degree view for example of the customer. Uh, it's just, just not real time. It's not as current as we would want it to be. The quality is not necessarily there. It's a very asynchronous process. Things have changed the processing power. You and I have talked about this a lot. We have much more data now. So it's that, that, that profile one. So, but also you mentioned curated apps, customer experience, and lead gen. You mentioned those two, uh, and you've also talked about digital transformation. So it sounds like you're supporting, and maybe this is not necessarily the case, but I'm curious as to what's going on here, maybe supporting more revenue generation in the early phases than say privacy or compliance, or is it actually, do you have use cases for both? >>It's all, it's all of it. Um, and, and shake and, you know, really talk passionately about some of the things we've helped clients do, like for instance, uh, J money. Why don't you talk about the, the hospital, um, uh, uh, you know, discharge processes. >>Absolutely. So, so, you know, just to make this a bit more real, they, you know, when you talk about a profile on one, it's about understanding of patient, as I said earlier, but it's trying to bring this notion of not just the things that you know about the patient you call that declared information. You can find the system in, you can find this information in traditional EMR systems, right? But imagine bringing in, uh, observed information, things that you observed an interaction with the patient, uh, and then bring in inferences that you can then start drawing on top of that. So to bring this to a live example, imagine at the point of care, knowing when all the conditions are right for the patient to be discharged after surgery. And oftentimes as you know, those, if all the different evidence of the different elements that don't come together, you can make some really serious mistakes in terms of patient discharge, bad things can happen. >>Patient could be readmitted or even worse. That could be a serious outcome. Now, how do you bring that information at the point of care for the person making a decision, but not just looking at the information, you know, but also understanding not just the clinical information, but the social, the socioeconomic information, and then making sure that that decision has the appropriate evidence behind it. So then when you do make that decision, you have the appropriate sort of, uh, you know, the guidance behind it for audit reasons, but also for ensuring that you don't have a bad outcome. So that's the example Bob's talking about, where we have a flight this in real settings, in, in healthcare, but also in financial services and other industries where you can make these decisions based on the machine, telling you with a lot of detail behind it, whether this is the right decision to be made, we call this explainability and the evidence that's needed. >>You know, that's interesting. I, I, I'm imagining a use case in my mind where after a patient leaves, so often there's just a complete disconnect with the patient, unless that patient has problems and goes back, but that patient might have some problems, but they forget it's too much of a pain in the neck to go back, but, but the system can now track this and we could get much more accurate information and that could help in future diagnoses and, and also decision-making for a patient in terms of, of outcomes and probability of success. Um, question, what do you actually sell? So it's a middleware product. It's a, how do I license it? >>It's a, it's a, uh, it's a software platform. So we sell software, um, and it is deployed in the customer's cloud environment of choice. Uh, of course we support complete hybrid cloud capabilities. Um, we support native cloud deployments on top of Microsoft and Amazon and Google. And we support IBM's hybrid cloud initiative with red hat OpenShift as well, which also puts us in a position to both support those public cloud environments, as well as the customer's private cloud environments. So constructed with Kubernetes in that environment, um, which helps the customer also re you know, realize the value of that operational appar operationalization, because they can modify those applications and then redeploy them directly into their cloud environment and start to see those as struck to see those spaces. Now, I want to cover a couple of the other components of the secret sauce, if I could date to make sure that you've got a couple other elements where some real breakthroughs are occurring, uh, in these spaces. >>Um, so Dave, you and I, you know, we're passionate about the semiconductor industry, uh, and you know, we know what is, you know, happening with regard to innovation and broadening the people who are now siliconized their intellectual property and a lot of that's happening because those companies who have been able to figure out how to manufacture or how to design those semiconductors are operationalizing those platforms with our customers. So you have people like apple who are able to really break out of the scene and do things by utilizing utilities and macros their own knowledge about how things need to work. And it's just, it's very similar to what we're talking about doing here for enterprise AI, they're operationalizing that construction, but none of those companies would actually start creating the actual devices until they go through simulation and design. Correct. Well, when you think about most enterprises and how they develop software, they just immediately start to develop the code and they're going through AB testing, but they're all writing code. >>They're developing those assets. They're creating many, many models. You know, some organizations say 90% of the models they create. They never use some say 50, and they think that's good. But when you think about that in terms of, you know, the capital that's being deployed, both on the resources, as well as the infrastructure, that's potentially a lot of waste as well. So one of the breakthroughs is, uh, the creation of what we call synthetic data and simulations inside of our, of our operational platform. So cortex fabric allows someone to actually say, look, this is my data pattern. And because it's sensitive data, it might be, you know, PII. Um, we can help them by saying, okay, what is the pattern of that data? And then we can create synthetic data off of that pattern for someone to experiment with how a model might function or how that might work in the application context. >>And then to run that through a set of simulations, if they want to bring a new model into an application and say, what will the outcomes of this model be before I deployed into production, we allow them to drive simulations across millions or billions of interactions to understand what is that model going to be effective. Was it going to make a difference for that individual or for this application or for the cost savings goal and outcomes that I'm trying to drive? So just think about what that means in terms of that digital transformation officers, having the great idea, being in the C-suite and saying, I want to do this with my business. Oftentimes they have to turn around to the CIO or the chief data officer and say, when can you get me that data? And we all know the answer to that question. They go like this, like the, yeah, I've got a couple other things on the plate and I'll get to that as soon as I can. >>Now we're able to liberate that. Now we're able to say, look, you know, what's the concept that you're trying to develop. Let's create the synthetic data off of that environment. We have a Corpus of data that we have collected through various client directions that many times gets that bootstrapped and then drive that through simulation. So we're able to drive from imagination of what could be the outcome to really getting high confidence that this initiative is going to have a meaningful value for the enterprise. And then that stimulates the right kind of following and the right kind of endorsement, uh, throughout really driving that change to the enterprise and that aspect of the simulations, the ability to plan out what that looks like and develop those synthetic aspects is another important element that the secret sauce inside of cortex fabric, >>Back to the semiconductor innovation, I can do that very cheaply. I think, I think I I'm thinking AWS cloud, I could experiment using graviton or maybe do a little bit of training with some, you know, new processors and, and then containerize it, bring it back to my on-premise state and apply it. Uh, and so, uh, just a as you say, a much more agile environment, um, yeah, >>Speed efficiency, um, and the ability to validate the hypothesis that, that started the process. >>Guys, think about the Tam, the total available market. Can we have that discussion? How big is that? >>I mean, if you think about the spend across, uh, the healthcare space and financial services, we're talking about hundreds of billions, uh, in that, in terms of what the enterprise AI opportunity, as in just those spaces. And remember financial services is a broad spectrum. So one of the things that we're actually starting to roll out today in fact, is a SAS service that we developed. That's based on top of our offerings called trust star trust star.ai, and trust star is a set of personalized insights that get delivered directly to the loan officer inside of, uh, an institution who's trying to, uh, really match, uh, lending to someone who wants to buy a property. Um, and when you think about many of those organizations, they have very, very high demand. They've got a lot of information, they've got a lot of regulation they need to adhere to. >>But many times they're very analytically challenged in terms of the tools they have to be able to serve those needs. So what's happening with new listings, what's happening with my competitors, what's happening. As people move from high tax states, where they want to potentially leave into new, more attractive toxin and opportunity-based environments where they're not known to those lending institutions that maybe, you know, they're, they're trying to be married up with. So we've developed a set of insights that are, is, this is a subscription service trust r.ai, um, which goes directly to the loan officer. And then we use our platform behind the scenes to use things like the home disclosure act, data, MLS data, other data that is typically Isagenix to those sources and providing very customized insights to help that buyer journey. And of course, along the way, we can identify things like are some of the decisions more difficult to explain, are there potential biases that might be involved in that environment as people are applying for mortgages, and we can really drive growth through inclusion for those lending institutions, because they might just not understand that potential client well enough, that we can identify the kind of things that they can do to know them better. >>And the benefit is really to hold there, right? And shale, I'll let you jump in, but to me, it's twofold. There. One is, you know, you want to have accurate decisions. You want to have low risk decisions. And if you want to be able to explain that to an individual that may get rejected, here's why, um, and, and it wasn't because of bias. It was because of XYZ and you need to work on these things, but go ahead shape. >>Now, this is going to add that point here, Dave, which is a double-faced point on the dam. One of the things that, and the reason why, you know, industries like healthcare, financial services spending billions, it's not because they look at AI in isolation, they actually looking at the existing processes. So, you know, established disciplines like CRM or supply chain procurement, whether it is contact center and so on. And the examples that we gave you earlier, it's about infusing AI into those existing applications, existing systems. And that's, what's creating the left because what's been missing so far is the silos of data and you traditional traditional transaction systems, but this notion of intelligence that can be infused into the systems and that's, what's creating this massive market opportunity for us. >>Yeah. And I think, um, I think a lot of people just misunderstood in the, or in the early, early days of the AI, you know, new AI when we came out of the AI winter, if you will, people thought, okay, the incumbents are in big trouble now because they are not, they're not AI developers, but really what you guys are showing is it's not about building your own AI. It's about applying AI and having the tools to do so. The incumbents actually have a huge advantage because they've got the systems in place. They can, if they, if they're smart, they can infuse AI and then extract value out of that for their customers. >>And that's why, you know, companies like, uh, like IBM are an investor in a great partner in this space. Anthem is an investor, uh, you know, of the company, but also, you know, someone who can utilize the capabilities, Microsoft, uh, Intel, um, you know, we've been, we've been, uh, you know, really blessed with a great backing Norwest venture partners, um, obviously is, uh, an investor in us as well. So, you know, we've seen the ability to really help those organizations think about, um, you know, where that future lies. But one of the things that is also, you know, one of the gaps in the promises when a C-suite executive like a digital transformation officer, chief digital chief customer officer, they're having their idea, they want to be accountable to that idea. They're having that idea in the boardroom. And they're saying, look, I think I can improve my customer satisfaction and, uh, by 20 points and decrease the cost of my call center by 20 or 30 or 50 points. >>Um, but they need to be able to measure that. So one of the other things that, uh, we've done a cognitive scale is help them understand the progress that they're making across those business goals. Um, now when you think about this people like Andrew Nang, or just really talking about this aspect of goal oriented AI, don't start with the problem, start with what your business goal is, start with, what outcome you're trying to drive, and then think about how AI helps you along that goal. We're delivering this now in our product, our version six product. So while some people are saying, yeah, this is really the right way to potentially do it. We have those capabilities in the product. And what we do is we identify this notion of the campaign, an AI campaign. So when the case that I just gave you where the chief digital officer is saying, I want to drive customer satisfaction up. >>I want to have more explainable decisions, and I want to drive cost down. Maybe I want to drive, call avoidance. Um, you know, and I want to be able to reduce a handling time, um, to drive those costs down, that is a campaign. And then underneath that campaign, there's all sorts of missions that support that campaign. Some of them are very long running. Some of them are very ephemeral. Some of them are cyclical, and we have this notion of the campaign and then admission planner that supports the goals of that campaign, showing that a leader, how they're doing against that goal by measuring the outcomes of every interaction against that mission and all the missions against the campaign. So, you know, we think accountability is an important part of that process as well. And we've never engaged an executive that says, I want to do this, but I don't want to be accountable to the result, but they're having a hard time identifying I'm spending this money. >>How do I ensure that I'm getting the return? And so we've put our, you know, our secret sauce into that space as well. And that includes, you know, the information around the trustworthiness of those, uh, capabilities. Um, and I should mention as well, you know, when we think about that aspect of the responsible AI capabilities, it's really important. The partnerships that we're driving across that space, no one company is going to have the perfect model intelligence tool to be able to address an enterprise's needs. It's much like cybersecurity, right? People thought initially, well, I'll do it myself. I'll just turn up my firewall. You know, I'll make my applications, you know, uh, you know, roll access much more granular. I'll turn down the permissions on the database and I'll be safe from cybersecurity. And then they realized, no, that's not how it was going to work. >>And by the way, the threats already inside and there's, long-term persistent code running, and you have to be able to scan it, have intelligence around it. And there are different capabilities that are specialized for different components of that problem. The same is going to be turnaround responsible and trustworthy AI. So we're partnered with people like IBM, people like Microsoft and others to really understand how we take the best of what it is that they're doing partner with the best, uh, that they're doing and make those outcomes better for clients. And then there's also leaders like the responsible AI Institute, which is a non-profit independent organization who were thinking about a new rating systems for, um, the space of responsible and trusted AI, thinking about things like certifications for professionals that really drive that notion of education, which is an important component of addressing the problem. And we're providing the integration of our tools directly with those assessments and those certifications. So if someone gets started with our platform, they're already using an ecosystem that includes independent thinkers from across the entire industry, um, including public sector, as well as the private sector, to be able to be on the cutting edge of what it's going to take to really step up to the challenge in that space. >>Yeah. You guys got a lot going on. I mean, you're eight years in now and you've got now an executive to really drive the next scale. You mentioned Bob, some of your investors, uh, Anthem, IBM Norwest, uh, I it's Crunchbase, right? It says you've raised 40 million. Is that the right number? Where are you in fundraising? What can you tell? >>Um, they're a little behind where we are, but, uh, you know, we're staged B and, uh, you know, we're looking forward to now really driving that growth. We're past that startup phase, and now we're into the growth phase. Um, and we're seeing, you know, the focus that we've applied in the industries, um, really starting to pay off, you know, initially it would be a couple of months as a customer was starting to understand what to be able to do with our capabilities to address their challenges. Now we're seeing that happen in weeks. So now is the right time to be able to drive that scalability. So we'll be, you know, looking in the market of how we assemble that, uh, you know, necessary capability to grow. Um, Shay and I have worked, uh, in the past year of, uh, with the board support of building out our go to market around that space. >>Um, and in the first hundred days, it's all about alignment because when you're going to go through that growth phase growth phase, you really have to make sure that things were pointed in the right direction and pointed together in the right direction, simplifying what it is that we're doing for the market. So people could really understand, you know, how unique we are in this space, um, and what they can expect out of an engagement with us. Um, and then, you know, really driving that aspect of designing to go to market. Um, and then scaling that. >>Yeah, I think I, it sounds like you've got, you got, if you're, if you're in down to days or weeks in terms of the ROI, it sounds like you've got product market fit nailed. Now it's about sort of the next phase is you really driving your go to market and the science behind how your dimension and your, your sales productivity, and you can now codify what you've learned in that first phase. I like the approach. A lot of, a lot of times you see companies, of course, this comes out of the west coast, east coast guy, but you see the double, double, triple, triple grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, and then, and then churn becomes that silent killer of the S the software company. I think you guys, it sounds you've, you've taken a much, much more adult-like approach, and now you're ready to really drive that scale. I think it's the new formula really for success for hitting escape velocity. Guys, we got to go, but thanks so much. Uh, uh, Bob, I'll give you the last word, w w w what you mentioned some of your a hundred day priorities. Maybe you can summarize that and what should we be looking for as Martin? >>I mean, I, I think, I think the, you know, the, our measures of success are our clients measure success and the same for our partners. So we're not doing this alone, we're doing it with system integrator partners, and we're doing it with a great technology partners in the market as well. So this is a part about keeping that promise for enterprise AI. And one of the things that I'll say just in the last couple of minutes is, you know, this is not just a company with a great vision and great engineers to develop out this great portfolio, but it's a company with great values, great commitments to its employees and the marketplace and the communities we serve. So I was attracted to the culture of this company, as well as I was, uh, to the, uh, innovation and what they mean to the, to the space of a, >>And I said, I said, I'll give you last word. Actually, I got a question for Shea you Austin based, is that correct? >>But we have a global presence, obviously I'm operating out of Austin, other parts of the U S but, uh, offices in, in, uh, in the UK, as well as in India, >>You're not moving to tax-free Texas. Like everybody else. >>I've got to, I've got an important home, uh, and life in Connecticut cell. I'll be traveling back and forth between Connecticut and Austin, but keeping my home there. >>Thanks for coming on and best of luck, we want to follow your progress and really appreciate your time today. Good luck. >>Thank you, Dave. All right. >>Thank you for watching this cube conversation. This is Dave Volante. We'll see you next time.

>>from the bellagio hotel in Las Vegas >>it's the >>cube >>covering Ui >>Path Forward four brought to you >>by Ui Path. >>Welcome back to las Vegas. The cube is live with you. I Path forward four at the bellagio lisa martin with Dave Volonte. We're gonna be talking about you I Path integration suite, we have a couple of guests joining us here. Mark Jeannie is here the GM of Ui Path, formerly the co founder and Ceo of cloud elements and Peter Villeroy also joins us Director of Global I. T. Automation practice at UI Path guys welcome to the program. >>Thanks lisa. Great to hear. >>So Mark, let's go ahead and start with you. The Cloud elements acquisition was done in about the last six months. Talk to us about why you chose to be acquired by Ui Path and where things are today. Some big announcements yesterday. >>Yeah absolutely. So yeah if you go back six months ago um you know we have been in conversations with you I Path for for quite a while and um you know as we were looking at our opportunities as an api integration platform. So cloud elements just to step back a little bit um was a leader in helping companies take a P. I. S integrate applications together and bed that into their into their apps and um you know I Path approached us about the combination of what's happening in the automation world and you know these these have been a society as the marine Fleming from I. D. C. Mentioned this morning integration and DARPA have been separate swim lanes and what we saw and what you I. Path approaches with was ability to combine these together and really be the first company to take and take ui automation and seamlessly connected together with A. P. I. Automation or api integration >>Peter What's been some of the feedback? We know you guys are more than 9000 customers strong now we've had a whole bunch of amount yesterday and today. What's been the feedback so far on the cloud elements acquisition? So >>there's a huge amount of interest. We've had very positive feedback on that lisa the combination of Ui driven automation and A. P. I. Uh Native Integrations is is key especially to the I. T. Leadership that I work with. Um some of whom have traditionally compartmentalized you ipads platform in the Ui space and legitimately think about their own internal processes as being having very little to do with the user interface right. And so combining Ui driven automation together with uh api integration really helps too pick them up where they are and show them the power of that kind of a hyper automation platform that can deliver value in a number of spaces. And you guys ever >>see the movie Blindside? All right. You know what I'm talking about with joe. Theismann gets hit from the blind side and then his career is over and and that's when people realized oh my gosh the left tackle for right handed quarterback is so important and it's subsequent drafts when somebody would pick a left tackle like a good left all the rest went and that's what's happening in in the automation business today. You guys took the lead, you you set the trend. People said wow this is actually going to be a huge market. And then now we're seeing all this gonna occur. And a lot of it from these big software companies who believe every dollar of software should go to them saying hey we can actually profit from this within our own vertical stacks. So what do you make of all the M. And A. That's going on in particular? There was one recently where private equity firm is mashing together a long time R. P. A vendor with a long time integration firm. So it looks like you guys, you know on the right >>side of history in this regard. Your thoughts. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean if you think about automation right you've got to obviously help people do their jobs better. But if you're going to automate a process and a department you needed connect the applications that they use that those people use otherwise you can't accomplish it. And where ap is fit in as is automation and ui automation has become more and more mission critical and it's become bigger and bigger part of enterprise I. T. Wants to get involved. And so enterprise gets involved and what's their stack. It's api based their technology stack is how you connect back is through api so more and more companies are seeing what you I path saw is that if you're gonna automate every process and every department for every person you need to connect to every application that they're using and that's why this is now becoming right. Three companies now just recently have done these types of acquisitions of bringing an integration platform in and combining them together are trying to combine them together. >>All mps are not created equally as we know. Some are sort of half baked lot of them. Many of them don't have decent documentation so there's sort of a spectrum there. How do you, how do you think about prioritizing? How do you think about the landscape? Do you just kind of ignore the stuff that's not well documented and eventually that will take care of itself. How should we think about there have always >>been layers of integration right. Especially working with the ICTy organizations. So you've got our native integrations would make it easy to drag and drop activities and then you've got the A. P. I. Is that we can consume with various activities. That area has really grown through the acquisition of cloud elements and then you've got that third layer where when all else fails, you go on to the user interface and interact with the application like a human does and what you see is that our our interaction with college elements really enables a great enhancement of that lower base level um which is mildly interesting to the lines of business very important. I Yeah, for sure. >>So the reason I asked that question is I was talking to one of your customers this big ASAP customers said I love you ipad. The problem I have is I got so many custom mods and so it's just you know orally documented and I can't I wanna put automation in there but I can't. So to those parts of the tech stack become like the main frame of you know what I mean? And just sort of they live there and they just keep doing their thing but there's so much innovation that pops up around it. How do you how do you see that? >>Well that's part of the agility that comes with the platform like you ipads is that you can interact with the very clean uh swagger documented restful aPI s and you can interact with SCP on their proprietary ages old A. P. I. S. Um Those are things that we've traditionally done decently well, but again through this acquisition we could do that on a grander scale um with bidirectional triggering and all the goodness that you >>solve that problem today that your customer and this is a couple of years ago, you can solve that problem with cloud elements. Is that right? >>Yeah, absolutely. The the ability to integrate too these enterprise platforms like ASAP you need multiple tools to do the job. Right. So ui automation is great but if you've customized ui significantly or other things like that then the A. P. I can be a great structure for it and other cases where um that api provides a resiliency in a in a scale to it that um opens up new processes as well to those corporate systems. Right? So the balance of being able to bring these two worlds together is where you can unlock more because you got >>east west automation >>that's very good overhead and now >>you're going north south with cloud elements is deeper. Right, >>bottom line from the VP of its point of view, the more that can be done from a machine to machine communication the better. So sure. >>What's the opportunity for the existing cloud elements customers to take advantage of here? >>Yeah, absolutely. Um We've continued to support, brought our customers over with us. Uh Part of our customer base has actually been a significant number of software customers. Uh cos S. A. P. S. One of them doc you sign gain site, you know, so household names in the world of software as well as large financial services institutions like US Bank and Capital One and american Express, all of them had that common need where um they wanted to have an api centric approach to being able to connect to customers and partners and leverage our platform to do that. So we will continue to support that extend that. But we see opportunities where again we couldn't automate everything for our customers just threw a PS And uh you know for example one of our major financial services institutions were working with wants to take um and provide a robot for their uh customers and commercial payments to be able to automatically kick off in A. P. I. And so that seamless integration where we can combine that automation with robots leveraging and kicking off a P. I. S automatically takes us further into automating those processes for those >>customers. So you guys six months right. Uh talk about how that integration api integration company better gone smoothly. But what was that like you guys are getting the knack of M and a talk about that, what you learn maybe what you would do differently to even accelerate further, How'd it go? Uh >>That's the best answer from you having been on the >>acquisition side. Um Well we how well it went is six months later, which I think is really unheard of in the technology world, we're introducing our combined offering you I Path integration service that essentially takes what cloud elements built embeds it right into automation. Cloud studio in the Ui Path products. We and uh it's been a global effort. Right? So we had the Ui Path team was based in Hyderabad Denver and Dallas and then we've got um Ui Path engineers working with that cloud elements team that are in Bucharest Bellevue and bangalore and with the miracles of zoom and uh that type of thing, never meeting anyone in person, we were able to integrate the product together and launch it here today >>six months is a fast turnaround time frame was how much of that was accelerated by the, by the fact of the global situation that we're in. >>Yeah, well you know in some respects that that helped right? Because we um um we didn't have to waste time traveling and we could hop on zoom calls instantly. We spent a lot of time even over zoom making sure there was a cultural fit. You I path has a, you know, not only the humble, bold and type of values but it's a very collaborative environment, very open and collaborative environment as Brent can attest to. And that collaboration, I think in that spirit of collaboration really helped us feel welcome and move quickly to pull this together. And also >>the necessity is the mother of innovation right. Uh you ipad traditionally being popular in the CFOs organization were becoming the C I O s best friend and the timing was right to introduce this kind of capability to combine with what we traditionally do well and really move into their picking up like I said the customer where they are and leading them into that fully end to end automation capability and this was integral. So it wasn't time to kick the tires but to get moving >>and my right, there's a governance play here as well because I. T. Is kind of generally responsible for governance if you make it easier for them to whatever governance systems they're using >>governance privacy >>security that now you can just connect. They don't have to rip and replace. Is there an angle there? >>Sure, yeah. So nothing is more important than I. T. Than than control and governments and change management and half of the uh conversations we're having out there on the floor are around that right um uh ensuring that all of the good governance is in place um and we have a lot of the uh integrations and frameworks necessary to help that through your devops pipeline and doing proper ci cd and test automation um and you know introducing that integration layer in addition to what we already have just helps all of that to uh move more smoothly and bring more value to our customers. >>Mark talk to me about some of the feedback from customers that you mentioned, doc Watson. S A P probably I imagine joint customers with you. I path now there you're working together, what's the what's in it for them? >>Yeah, no the feedback has been tremendous. Right, so um api automation is not new to you. I path but customers have been asking for more capability. So one of them is in that governance area that we were just talking about, right, the ability to create connections centrally enable them disable them. Right? You got mission critical corporate applications. You want to be able to make sure that those applications are being controlled and monitored. Right? So that was one aspect. And by bringing this as a cloud based service, we can accomplish that. Um the other area is that this eventing capability, the ability to kick off workflows and processes based on changes to corporate applications, a new employees added in workday. I want to kick off a process to onboard that new employee and that triggered eventing service has been really well received and then um yeah, so that I'd say with the ability to also create new connections more simply was the third big factor. Uh we created a standardized authentication service. So no matter where you are in the UI Path product line, you get a consistent way to create a new connection, whether it's a personal connection by a business user too, you know, google docs or Microsoft office or your C O E R I T. Creating a connection to uh an important corporate system. >>How about the partner? I know you guys had partner day here leading into forward for they must be stoked about this gives you a lever to even add new partners. What was those >>conversations like? Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. The partners are excited about those same features but um they're also excited about something in our roadmap which we expect to be previewing early next year and that's a connector builder. So the ability for partners to uh more quickly than ever create their own connectors. That'll work just like first party connectors that we ui Path build and add them into catalogs, share them in the market place. So there's new revenue opportunities, new opportunities for partners to create reusable assets that they can leverage and yeah so um lots of things, lots of work to continue to do, right? It's only been six months and uh but that's that's gonna be a big initiative going forward. >>So integration service as you mentioned, announced at this conference, we know that that's the first step obviously accomplished as we also talked about very quickly in a six month time period. But what does the future hold for api automation and integration service? >>So um one of the key areas just continue to expose the integration service um more broadly in the Ui Path product portfolio. Now that we have this service, more Ui Path products will be able to leverage it. Right? We're starting off with studio and orchestrator but that we can all use and share that common common capability. Um The other is to make access to complex business systems easier. So you think about it right. A uh to get a purchase order from net suite might take five or six api calls to do. Well, a citizen developer doesn't know what those five or six things you have to do. So we'll be creating these business activities or just get me open purchase orders that will work seamlessly in the studio product. And behind the scenes. Well, chain together those 56 aPI calls to make that a simple process. Right? So taking the integration service and making it even more powerful tool for that citizen developer than nontechnical user as well. So that's >>development work you're going to do. >>That's what we're gonna do as well as enable partners to do as well. So it's a key part of our road map over time. Because >>yeah I mean the partner pieces key because when net suite changes how it you're creating that abstraction layer. So but that's value add for the partners. >>Absolutely. And they have that domain expertise, right. They can create assets, leveraging the UI path automation capabilities but also bring their knowledge about A. S. A. P. Or workday and those oracle ebs and those core business systems and then combine that together into assets that enhance integration service that they build and I can I can share with their customers and share with our market >>because the work workday developer is going to know about that well ahead of time. No, >>it's coming and they know better than we do. Right. That's their business. That's what they know really well. >>Nice nice value at opportunity, peter >>One of the things that you iPad has been known for is its being very and I've said this on the program the last two days, that's being a good use case for land and expand. You guys have 70% of revenue that comes from existing customers. Talk to me about the cloud elements acquisition as a facilitator of because you kind of mentioned, you know, we're used to be really in bed with the cfos now we're going to see us and we've heard from a number of your customers where they started in finance and it's now Enterprise White, how is this going to help facilitate that? Even more? >>It really helps, you know, touching on what Mark just mentioned about the citizen developer, right, just as one of many examples, the empowerment of end users to automate things for themselves um is critical to that land and expand um successes that we've been seeing and where from an I. T standpoint, the frustration with the citizen developer is, you know, maybe what they're building isn't so top notch right? It works for themselves. What we can't replicate that, but put making it easy to make api integration part of what they do in studio X is so key to enhancing also the reusability of what's coming out of there. So that c uh C O E S can replicate that across teams are globally within their organization and that's part of land and expand because you may find something that's valuable in one line of business replicates easily into another line of business if the tool set is in place >>pretty powerful model lisa >>it is guys. Thanks so much for joining us today, talking about the club elements acquisition, what you're uh, doing with integration service, What's to come the opportunities in it for both sides and your partners? We appreciate your time. >>Great. Thank you. Thank you very much. I >>appreciate it. Thank you for >>David Want I'm lisa martin. You're watching the cube live in las Vegas at the bellagio Ui Path forward for stick around. We'll be right back. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm mm.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome to theCUBE's coverage of AnsibleFest 2021 virtual; I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We've got a great power panel here from Kyndryl whose great company has spun out of IBM. IT services great, technology, great conversation. Scott Kinane, director of worldwide automation, Anand Gopalakrishnan, chief automation architect, love the title, from Kyndryl, and Lisa Chavez, automations architect from Kyndryl. Guys, thanks for coming on. Appreciate the conversation. Looking forward to it. >> Thanks John glad to be here. >> Thank you. >> Scott, we covered you guys at IBM Think 2021, the new name, everything's happening. The extreme focus, the tactical execution has been pretty much on cloud, cloud native automation. This is the conversation. Knowing how much has gone behind the new name, can you just take a minute to share, give us an update on who Kyndryl is and how that's going? >> Yeah, I'd love to. You know, as Kyndryl, we really have the privilege of being responsible for designing, building, managing, and modernizing, you know, the mission critical systems that the world depends on every day, you know? When our thousands of clients span every industry and are leaders in their industries, right? You run the mission critical application environments for, you know, seven of the 10 largest airlines, 28 of the top 50 banks, right? All the largest mobile providers. You know, most of the largest retailers out there, and so on and so forth, right? That these companies really trust us to ensure that their business operations are really flawlessly being run. And operating our scale, and with the quality that these clients demand, is only possible by doing enterprise strength automation. Right? It's only, you know, it's not only about reactive automation, but using intelligent automation so we can predict and prevent issues before they really become a problem. Right? And because of our intelligent approach to automation, our clients have a... you know, they get tremendous business benefits for it, right? Retailers can open stores faster because systems and services are deployed more efficiently, right? Banks ATM's right, we all depend on those day to day, you know. They're working when you need them with our automation behind the scenes. You know, healthcare systems are more robust and responsive because we monitor for potential breaks and prevent them before they occur, right. Data processing systems, right. We hear about breaches all the time, right? Our clients are more secure because their environments are checked into, are checked to ensure that security exposures are quickly discovered and intermediated, right? So like automation, orchestration, intelligence, driving the world's digital economy, right. If you ask what Kyndryl is it, you know, that's our DNA. And it's really what we do well. >> Yeah, what's interesting, I want to get you to just quick followup on that because the name implies kind of a fresh perspective, working together. There's a lot of shared experiences and that. And the new normal now is honestly with hybrid and virtual continuing, people are doing things differently. And I would like you, if you don't mind taking a minute to share about the automation environment that you guys are operating in, because it's a different approach, but the game is still the same. Right? (John and Scott laugh) You got to make sure that these things are scaling and people are working again. So it's a combination of people and technology, in a new equation. Take a minute to talk about that. >> Yeah, I'd love to. You know, and you're right, right; the game is really changing. And automation is really ingrained into, needs to be ingrained in the way everybody's approaching what they do day to day. And if you talk about automation, in a way it's really included in what we do in our BAU delivery operations, right. And we do it at a tremendous scale, right. Where we have, you know, millions of infrastructure components and applications managed with automation, right. We're going to talk a little bit about CACF here in a few minutes, right? We've got over half a million devices themselves boarded onto that, and we're running over 11 million automations on a month to month basis through that, through the, the Red Hat technology that that's built on, right. We've got RPA as a key part of our environment, running millions of transactions through that on a yearly basis, right. And our automation's really covering the entire stack, right? It's not just about traditional IT, but we cover public cloud, private cloud, hybrid, you know, network components, applications and business processes, right? You talked about people, right. Help desk, right. We cover automation to automate a lot of the help desk processes are happening behind the scenes; security and resiliency. And it's really about driving all that through, you know, not just prescriptive reactions, but you know, us using our experience; insights we have from our data lakes, and intel, and AI ops technologies, and really making proactive based decisions based on that to really help drive the value back for our clients and to ensure that they're operating the way they need to. >> Yeah, that systems mindset, outcome driven focus is unique. That's awesome, congratulations. And onto Lisa, we're going to get into the architect side of it, because you're seeing more and more automation at the center of all the conversation. Reminds me of the machine learning AI vibe a couple of years ago. It's like, oh yeah, everything's MLAI. Automation, now everything's automation. Anand, your title is chief automation architect, love that title. What do you do? Like, I mean, you're architecting more automation, are you? Could you take a minute to explain your role? I love the title. And automation is really the technology driving a lot of the change. What do you do? >> Thank you, John. So let me first thank you for allowing us to come and speak to you and inform here about what we have done using Ansible and the other Red Hat products. So Ansible is one of the many products that we have used within Red Hat to support the solution that we have deployed, Paul, as our automation community framework, right? So, Scott touched upon it a few minutes earlier in terms of what are we doing for our clients? How do we make sure that our client's environment is secure? How do we make sure that our client environment is available all the time? So that... Are the infrastructure services that we're providing for our clients has a direct impact for their clients. So this is where the implementation of automation using the products that we have from Red Hat has helped us achieve. And we'll continue, we will continue to expand on supporting that, right. So let me break this into two parts. One is from an infrastructure standpoint, how we have implemented the solution and scaled it in such a way that we can support the number of devices that Scott was referring to earlier, And also the number of clients that we have touched on. And the second part, I'll let my colleague Lisa talk about the application architecture and the application scalability that we have, right? So firstly, we touch on infrastructure. So if you look at the way we needed to establish a capability to provide support for our clients, we wanted to make sure our infrastructure is available all the time, right? That's very important. So, before we even basically say, hey, we're going to make sure that our client's infrastructure is available all the time or our client's infrastructure is secure. And also we provide, we are able to provide the automation services for the infrastructure service that we're providing, right? So the stack that we built was to support our solution to be truly cloud native. So we began with of course, using OCP, which is the OpenShift cloud platform that we have. We relied on Red Hat CoreOS, which is basically enabling the automation platform to be deployed as a true cloud native application; that can be scalable to not just within one country, but multiple countries. Supporting data privacy that we need to have, supporting the compliance parts of that we need to support, and scalable to support the half a billion devices that we are supporting today. Right? So essentially, if you look at what we have, is a capability enabled on the entire stack of the Red Hat products that we have. And we are able to focus on ensuring that we are able to provide the automation by gaining efficiencies, right? If you look at a lot of automations that we have it's about biggest in complexities, right? So just think about the amount of risk that we are removing, and the quality that we are assuring from the qualified and standardized changes that we are basically implementing. Or, just, the amount of risk that we are able to eliminate by removing thousands of manual labor hours as well. So if you look at the automation need, it's not just about efficiency of the removal of labor hours, but efficiency of providing standards and efficiency of providing the capabilities that support our clients, who their needs; i.e. making sure that their infrastructure is compliant, their infrastructure is secure, and their infrastructure is highly available all the time. So it just basically making sure that we are able to address what we call as day one and day two activities, while we are able to support their day two infrastructure services activities; i.e. right from ground up. Building the server, which is provisioning, doing some provisioning activities, and deploying applications, and basically supporting the applications once they are deployed. So look at the scale, we have quite a bit there. >> So, you got the cloud native platform... >> Hey, careful Anand... >> You've got the cloud native platform, right? Let me just summarize that; cloud native platform for scale. So that means you're aligning, and targeting, and working with people who will want to do cloud native applications. >> Absolutely. >> And they want fast speed. (John laughing) >> Yes, and they want... >> They want everything to go faster. And by the way, the compliance piece is super important because if you can take that away from them, for waiting for the answers from the compliance department or security department, then that's the flywheel. Is that what you're getting at? This is the trend? >> Absolutely. So I'm going to turn it over to Lisa, who's going to help us. >> Yeah >> Go ahead Lisa >> Lisa, weigh in on the flywheel here. (Lisa chuckles) >> Yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. So, so one of the things that CACF allows us to do, right, and it's again, as Anand described, `it's a very robust, powerful infrastructure. Supports many, many clients as we run a lot of applications through this infrastructure. And we do things like run security health checks on all our client's servers, and process the data real time and get that data out to our teams to address issues almost immediately, right? Scott touched on the fact that we are monitoring incident data real time and taking automated actions to correct problems in the environment. These are just really, really powerful capabilities that we're able to offer. We also have other use cases, we do a lot of identity management, primary and secondary controls through the CACF infrastructure. So we're able to have one point of connectivity into our client's environments. It's agentless, right, so you set up one connection to their servers and we can do a whole lot of management of various things through this single automation platform. So... >> So I, so that just to call this up, this is actually very powerful. And first of all, you mentioned the CACF that's the cloud automation community framework. >> Yes, correct. >> Right. >> Okay, so that's the platform. (Lisa chuckles) >> Yes >> Okay, so now the platforms' there; and now talk about the advantages. Because the power here is this truly highlights the transformation of DevOps, infrastructure as code, and microservices, coming around the corner where the developer; And I know developers want to build security into the applications from day one and take advantage of new services as they come online. That is now one. That puts the pressure on the old IT teams, the old security teams, who have been the NoOps. No, you can't do or slow, are slower. This is a trend, this is actually happening. And this culture shift is happening. Could you guys weigh in on that because this is a really important part of this story. >> Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, if you go back, circa 2019 or so, right. You know, we were back then and we were recognized as a leader in the automation space by a lot of the analysts. But we kind of look at that culture change you were just talking about and look at, you know, how do we become more agile? How do we go faster and what we're doing, right. And then I'm working with Jason McKerr and the Red Hat's Ansible automation platform team. We kind of define this platform that Lisa and Anand are talking to, right. Wrapping together, the OpenShift and Ansible, and 3scale with, you know, our services platform with Watson, and, and, you know, it really gave us the ability to leverage two of our core capabilities, right? The first, you know, in order for us to go faster, was our community model, right? Our community experience, right? So we've got a large delivery community that's out there really experts in a lot of, experts in a lot of technologies and industries. And, and by putting this in place, it gave us a way to really leverage them more in that community model development, so they could create, and we can harvest more of the automation playbooks. A lot of the different use cases that Lisa was talking incident remediation, patch scanning and deployment, security compliance, checking and enforcement. You know, basically anything that needs to get done as part of our what we'd call day one or day two operations we do for a client, right. And Steve's approach really to, to do a lot of high quality automation and get to the point where we could get thousands of automation modules that our clients could, that we could use as a part of our, a part of our services we delivered to the client environments. And, you know, that type of speed and agility, and being able to kind of leverage that was something that wasn't there previously. It also gave us a way to leverage, I guess they are one of our other core capabilities, right; which is a systems integrator, right? So we were able to focus more, by having that core engine in place, we were able to form focus more on our integrator experience and integrate, you know, IBM technologies, ServiceNow, ScienceLogic, VMware, and many more, right to the engine itself. So you know, basically, you know, all the applications out there that the, the clients then depend on for their business environments integrate directly with them; so we could more seamlessly bring the automation to their, to their environments, right. So it really gave us both the, the ability to change our culture, have a community model in place that we didn't before and really leveraged that services integrator expertise that we bring to the table, and act really fast on behalf of our clients out there. >> That's great stuff. Lisa, Lisa if you don't mind, could you share your thoughts on what's different about the community platform, and because automation has been around for a while, you do a couple of times, you do something repetitive, you automate it. Automate it out of way, and that's efficiency. Anand was the one saying that. >> Yeah but within Kyndryl, we have a very strong community and we have very strong security guidelines around what the community produces and what we deliver to our clients, right? So, we give our teams a lot of flexibility, but we also make sure that the content is very secure; we do a lot of testing. We have very strong security teams that do actual physical, penetration testing, right. They actually could try and come in and break things. So, you know, we really feel good about, you know, not only do we give our teams the flexibility, but we also, you know, make sure that it's safe for our clients. >> How's the relationship with Ansible evolving? Because as Ansible continues to do well with automation; automations now, like in automation as code, if things are discoverable, reuse is a big topic in the community model. How is Ansible factoring into your success? >> So... So firstly, I want to break this again into two discussions, right? One is the product itself. And second is how we have collaborated very closely with our colleagues at Red Hat, right? So essentially it's the feedback that we get from our clients, which is then fed into our solution, and then from our solution, we basically say, does it meet what our client's requirements are? If it doesn't, then we work with our Red Hat colleagues and say, hey, you know, we need some enhancements to be made. And we've been, we've been lucky enough to work with our colleagues at Red Hat, very closely, where we have been able to make some core product changes to support our clients requirements, right. And that's very, very important in terms of the collaboration from, with Red Hat, from a, you know, from a client standpoint. That's number one. Number two, from a product standpoint, Ansible, and the use of Ansible itself, right? Or Ansible Tower as the automation hub that we've been using. So we began this with a very base product capability, which was through what we call event automation. That was our first. Then we said, no, I think we can certainly look at expanding this to beyond event automation. I.e. can we do, when we say event that is very typically BAU activities, day two activities. But then we said, can we, can we do day one, day two infrastructure services automation? We said yes, why not? And then we worked again with our colleagues at Red Hat, identifying opportunities to improve on those. And we basically enhanced the framework to support those additional use cases that we basically identified. And as a matter of fact, we are continually looking at improving as well. In terms of not just hey, using the base product as is, but also receiving that feedback, giving that feedback to our Red Hat colleagues, and then implementing it as we go. So that's the, that's the approach we have taken. >> And what's the other half of the subject? Split it in two, What's the other half? >> Yep. But the other half is the actual implementation itself. So we like, which is basically expanding the use cases to go from beyond event automation to back from building the server, to also patching compliance. And now we're actually looking at even what we call service requests automation. By this is we basically want to be able to say hey user, we want a specific action to be performed on a particular end point. Can we take it to that next level as well? So that's where we are basically looking at as we progress. So we're not done. I would say we're still at the beginning of expansion. >> Yeah. >> Well no, I totally agree. I think it's early days, and I think a lot of it's, you mentioned day two operations; I love that. Day zero, day one, day two. Does anyone want to take a stab at defining what day two operations is? (John laughing) >> Do you want to go? >> Well, I got the experts here. It's good to get the definitions out there. >> Absolutely. >> 'Cause day one you're provisioned, right? >> Day zero, you provision. >> Day zero you provision. >> So day zero they look at... Yeah, so day zero you look at what is the infrastructure, what's the hardware that's there. And then day one you do what we call post provisioning activities, configuring everything that we need to do, like deploying the middleware applications, making sure the applications are configured properly, making sure that our, you know, the operating systems that we need to have. Whether it is a base operating system or operating systems for supporting the containers that are basically going to be enabled, all those will need to be looked at, right? So that's day one. Then day two is business as usual. >> Everything breaks on day two. (everyone laughs) >> Although I... >> Day one's fun, everything's good, we got everything up and running. We stood it up, and day two it breaks; And like, you know it's his fault. >> Exactly. >> Who's fault is it? (everyone laughing) So if you look at the approach that we took was, we said, let's start with the day two, then get to day zero, right. So which time where we have lots of lessons learned as we go through. And that's the expansion of how we are looking at Ansible. >> Well this is, all fun aside. First of all, it's all fun to have, to have to have jokes like that; but the reality is that the hardened operational discipline required to go beyond day one is critical, right? So this is where we start getting into the ops side where security downtime, disruptive operations, it's got to be programmable. And by the way, automation is in there too. So which means that it's not humans it's software running. Right? So, edge is going to complicate the hell out of that too. So, day two becomes super important from an architecture standpoint. You guys are the architects; what's the strategy, what should people be doing? What, what, how should, because day one is fun. You get it up, stand it up. But then it starts getting benefit; people start paying attention. >> Yep. _ And then you need to scale it and harden it. What's the strategy? What should people do? >> Yeah. I mean, if you think about automation, right? It's not... oh, I should, I meant to say John, you know, if it breaks, it's always Anand's fault, always Anand's. (John, Lisa, and Anand laugh) Don't ask any of that. >> I agree. >> Exactly. Thank you, Lisa. (everyone laughing) But, but automate, you know, you know, automation in a lot of conversations, people talk about it as gaining efficiency. And you know, it's not just that, you know, Automation is about de-risking complexities. Right? Think about all the risk that's removed, you know, and quality assured from the codified and standardized changes, right. Think about all the risk removed from eliminating, you know, tens of thousands of manual labor hours that have to be done. And those various things, right, that get done. So, for, we talk about day two operations, what we're doing, getting more automation in there, you know, our focus is definitely how do we de-risk changes? How do we make it safer for the clients? How do we make it more secure for the clients? And how do we ensure that their business operations, you know, are operating at their peak efficiencies? >> Yeah. And as I mentioned, we really go above and beyond on the security. We have much, much, much automated testing. And we also have the penetration testing I was talking about, so. We take security very seriously. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think what's interesting about what you guys are doing with the platform is, it's cloud native. You start to see not just the replatforming, but the fun parts. When you start thinking about refactoring applications and benefits start to come out of nowhere; I go new benefits, new net, new use cases. So I think the outcomes side of this is interesting. A lot of people talk about, okay let's focus on the cost, but there's now net new positive, potentially revenue impact for your customers. This is kind of where the game changes a lot. What do you guys think about that; 'cuz that's, you know, you always have this argument with folks who are very cost centric, repatriated for getting off the cloud, or let's look at the net new opportunities that are going to be enabled by rapid programming, identifying new workflows, automating them, and creating value. >> Yeah. I mean, this is, you know, you're talking about the future where we're going, things that we do, you know, obviously getting more closer to, and being directly aligned with the DevSecOps teams that are out there. You talk about day two, you know, the closer we are to those guys, the better for, for us and everybody else that's going there, going forward. You know, and as you know, businesses keep returning to their pre COVID level levels, you know, automation gives the possibility and that ones that we were doing gives possibility for hopefully the clients to do more of that revenue capture, right. Being able to, you know, be ahead a little bit earlier, being able to stand up retail stores faster, right. Being able to deploy business-based applications that are, generating revenue for the clients at a you know, you know, at a moment's notice. Things like that are really possible with automation, and possible with the way we've done this solution with Red Hat and our clients, right. And I think we've got tons of benefits there. We're seeing, you know, we've got almost 900 clients supported on it today, right. You know Anand hit on, we've got half a million plus devices that are connected to this, right. And we're seeing things where, you know, the clients are, are, that are on this are, are getting results, you know, Something such as 61% of all tickets being resolved with no human intervention, you know, 84% of their entire service base server base is being checked automatically for security and compliance daily. And, and, you know, we could go through lots of those different metrics, but the, you know, the fact we can do that for our clients gives, gives through automation, gives, you know, our engineers, our delivery community, the ability to closely more closely work with the client to do those revenue generation activities; to help them capture more, more revenue in the market. >> We'll just put that in context, the scale and speed of what's happening with those numbers; I mean, it's significant. It's not like it's a small little test. That's like large scale. Scale's the advantage of cloud. Cloud is a scale game. The advantage is scaling and handling that scale. What's your thoughts? >> Absolutely. So if you basically, again, when we started this, we started small, right. In terms of the use cases that we wanted to tackle, the number of devices that we said we could basically handle, right. But then once we saw the benefits, the initial benefits of how quickly we were able to fix some of the problems from a day one day, two standpoint; or address some of the compliance and patching issues that we needed to look at, right. We, we quickly saw opportunities and said, how fast can we go? And in terms of, well, it's not just how fast can we go in terms of setting up our own infrastructure by you know, saying, hey, we are cloud native. I can just spin up another container and, you know, make sure that I can have another a hundred servers onboarded to support, or a hundred that network devices to be onboarded to support and so on, right. So it was also the scale from a automation standpoint, where we needed to make sure that our resources were skilled, to develop the automations as well. So the scale is not in terms of just the infrastructure, but the scale is also in terms of people that can do the automation in terms of, you know, providing the services for our infrastructure, right. So that's how we approached it. People and then an application and infrastructure. So that included providing education in, in Kyndryl today rose to about 11,000 people that we have trained on Ansible, the use of Ansible, and the use of Ansible Tower, and just even doing development of the playbooks using Ansible. That's a theme. if you look at, if you look at, it's not just infrastructure scale. It's infrastructure scale, application to be able to scale to that infrastructure, and people to be able to scale to what we're trying to do to support our clients as well. >> I think the people think is huge because you have a side benefit here as harmony, and the teams. You got cohesiveness that breeds peace, not war. (everyone laughs) >> Absolutely. >> That's between teams. >> If you look at the, you know, the words that we said; cloud automation, community framework. If you really break it down, right, it's a framework, but for who? It's for the community. >> Yeah. >> But, what are they doing? They're building automation. >> Yeah >> And that is what >> The Security team wants to, >> the cloud is about, right? >> The security team wants to, make the apps go faster, The apps want to be fast, they don't want to be waiting. Everything's about going faster; Pass, shoot, score, as they say in sports. But, but, okay, I love this conversation. I think it's going to be the beginning of a big wave. How do people engage and how do I get involved if I want to use the cloud automation community framework? What's the consumption side for, how do you guys push this out there, and how do people engage with you? >> Scott do you want to take that one? >> Yeah. I mean the, the easiest way is, you know, Kyndryl, you know, we're, we're out there. We're, coming forward with our company, a spin off from IBM, come engage with our sales reps, come engage with our, our outsourcing, our social risk management service delivery organizations, and, and, you know, happy to get them engaged, get them on board, and get them using the automation framework we've got in place. >> That's awesome. Great. Well, great stuff. Love the automation conversation. Automation and hybrid are the big, big trends that are never going to stop. It's going to be a hybrid world we live in. And the edge is exciting. It's got, you mentioned the edge; it's just more and more action. It's a distributed computing paradigm. I mean, it really the same. We've seen this movie before Anand. Yeah, in tech. So now it's automation. So great stuff. Lisa, thank you for coming on; I appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> Thank you, John. >> Thank you, John. We have coverage for Ansible Fest 2021. Power panel breaking down automation with Kyndryl. The importance of community, the importance of cohesiveness with teams, but more importantly, the outcome, the speed of development and security. I'm John for theCUBE, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante despite all the chatter about cloud repatriation and the exorbitant cost of cloud computing customer spending momentum continues to accelerate in the post-isolation economy if the pandemic was good for the cloud it seems that the benefits of cloud migration remain lasting in the late stages of covid and beyond and we believe this stickiness is going to continue for quite some time we expect i asked revenue for the big four hyperscalers to surpass 115 billion dollars in 2021 moreover the strength of aws specifically as well as microsoft azure remain notable such large organizations showing elevated spending momentum as shown in the etr survey results is perhaps unprecedented in the technology sector hello everyone and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we'll share some some fresh july survey data that indicates accelerating momentum for the largest cloud computing firms importantly not only is the momentum broad-based but it's also notable in key strategic sectors namely ai and database there seems to be no stopping the cloud momentum there's certainly plenty of buzz about the cloud tax so-called cloud tax but other than wildly assumptive valuation models and some pockets of anecdotal evidence you don't really see the supposed backlash impacting cloud momentum our forecast calls for the big four hyperscalers aws azure alibaba and gcp to surpass 115 billion as we said in is revenue this year the latest etr survey results show that aws lambda has retaken the lead among all major cloud services tracked in the data set as measured in spending momentum this is the service with the most elevated scores azure overall azure functions vmware cloud on aws and aws overall also demonstrate very highly elevated performance all above that of gcp now impressively aws momentum in the all-important fortune 500 where it has always showed strength is also accelerating one concern in the most recent survey data is that the on-prem clouds and so-called hybrid platforms which we had previously reported as showing an upward spending trajectory seem to have cooled off a bit but the data is mixed and it's a little bit too early to draw firm conclusions nonetheless while hyperscalers are holding steady the spending data appears to be somewhat tepid for the on-prem players you know particularly for their cloud we'll study that further after etr drops its full results on july 23rd now turning our attention back to aws the aws cloud is showing strength across its entire portfolio and we're going to show you that shortly in particular we see notable strength relative to others in analytics ai and the all-important database category aurora and redshift are particularly strong but several other aws database services are showing elevated spending velocity which we'll quantify in a moment all that said snowflake continues to lead all database suppliers in spending momentum by a wide margin which again will quantify in this episode but before we dig into the survey let's take a look at our latest projections for the big four hyperscalers in is as you know we track quarterly revenues for the hyperscalers remember aws and alibaba ias data is pretty clean and reported in their respective earnings reports azure and gcp we have to extrapolate and strip out all a lot of the the apps and other certain revenue to make an apples-to-apples comparison with aws and alibaba and as you can see we have the 2021 market exceeding 115 billion dollars worldwide that's a torrid 35 growth rate on top of 41 in 2020 relative to 2019. aggressive yes but the data continues to point us in this direction until we see some clearer headwinds for the cloud players this is the call we're making aws is perhaps losing a sharepoint or so but it's also is so large that its annual incremental revenue is comparable to alibaba's and google's respective cloud business in total is business in total the big three u.s cloud companies all report at the end of july while alibaba is mid mid-august so we'll update these figures at that time okay let's move on and dig into the survey data we don't have the data yet on alibaba and we're limited as to what we can share until etr drops its research update on on the 23rd but here's a look at the net score timeline in the fortune 500 specifically so we filter the fortune 500 for cloud computing you got azure and the yellow aws and the black and gcp in blue so two points here stand out first is that aws and microsoft are converging and remember the customers who respond to the survey they probably include a fair amount of application software spending in their cloud answers so it favors microsoft in that respect and gcp second point is showing notable deceleration relative to the two leaders and the green call out is because this cut is from an aws point of view so in other words gcp declines are a positive for aws so that's how it should be interpreted now let's take a moment to better understand the idea of net score this is one of the fundamental metrics of the etr methodology here's the data for aws so we use that as a as a reference point net score is calculated by asking customers if they're adding a platform new that's the lime green bar that you see here in the current survey they're asking are you spending six percent or more in the second half relative to the first half of the year that's the forest green they're also asking is spending flat that's the gray or are you spending less that's the pink or are you replacing the platform i.e repatriating so not much spending going on in replacements now in fairness one percent of aws is half a billion dollars so i can see where some folks would get excited about that but in the grand scheme of things it's a sliver so again we don't see repatriation in the numbers okay back to net score subtract the reds from the greens and you get net score which in the case of aws is 61 now just for reference my personal subjective elevated net score level is 40 so anything above that is really impressive based on my experience and to have a company of this size be so elevated is meaningful same for microsoft by the way which is consistently well above the 50 mark in net score in the etr surveys so that's you can think about it that's even more impressive perhaps than aws because it's triple the revenue okay let's stay with aws and take a look at the portfolio and the strength across the board this chart shows net score for the past three surveys serverless is on fire by the way not just aws but azure and gcp functions as well but look at the aws portfolio every category is well above the 40 percent elevated red line the only exception is chime and even chime is showing an uptick and chime is meh if you've ever used chime every other category is well above 50 percent next net score very very strong for aws now as we've frequently reported ai is one of the four biggest focus areas from a spending standpoint along with cloud containers and rpa so it stands to reason that the company with the best ai and ml and the greatest momentum in that space has an advantage because ai is being embedded into apps data processes machines everywhere this chart compares the ai players on two dimensions net score on the vertical axis and market share or presence in the data set on the horizontal axis for companies with more than 15 citations in the survey aws has the highest net score and what's notable is the presence on the horizontal axis databricks is a company where high on also shows elevated scores above both google and microsoft who are showing strength in their own right and then you can see data iq data robot anaconda and salesforce with einstein all above that 40 percent mark and then below you can see the position of sap with leonardo ibm watson and oracle which is well below the 40 line all right let's look at at the all-important database category for a moment and we'll first take a look at the aws database portfolio this chart shows the database services in aws's arsenal and breaks down the net score components with the total net score superimposed on top of the bars point one is aurora is highly elevated with a net score above 70 percent that's due to heavy new adoptions redshift is also very strong as are virtually all aws database offerings with the exception of neptune which is the graph database rds dynamodb elastic document db time stream and quantum ledger database all show momentum above that all important 40 line so while a lot of people criticize the fragmentation of the aws data portfolio and their right tool for the right job approach the spending spending metrics tell a story and that that the strategy is working now let's take a look at the microsoft database portfolio there's a story here similar similar to that of aws azure sql and cosmos db microsoft's nosql distributed database are both very highly elevated as are azure database for mysql and mariadb azure cash for redis and azure for cassandra also microsoft is giving look at microsoft's giving customers a lot of options which is kind of interesting you know we've often said that oracle's strategy because we think about oracle they're building the oracle database cloud we've said oracle strategy should be to not just be the cloud for oracle databases but be the cloud for all databases i mean oracle's got a lot of specialty capability there but it looks like microsoft is beating oracle to that punch not that oracle is necessarily going there but we think it should to expand the appeal of its cloud okay last data chart that we'll show and then and then this one looks at database disruption the chart shows how the cloud database companies are doing in ibm oracle teradata in cloudera accounts the bars show the net score granularity as we described earlier and the etr callouts are interesting so first remember this is an aws this is in an aws context so with 47 responses etr rightly indicates that aws is very well positioned in these accounts with the 68 net score but look at snowflake it has an 81 percent net score which is just incredible and you can see google database is also very strong and the high 50 percent range while microsoft even though it's above the 40 percent mark is noticeably lower than the others as is mongodb with presumably atlas which is surprisingly low frankly but back to snowflake so the etr callout stresses that snowflake doesn't have a strong as strong a presence in the legacy database vendor accounts yet now i'm not sure i would put cloudair in the legacy database category but okay whatever cloudera they're positioning cdp is a hybrid platform as are all the on-prem players with their respective products and platforms but it's going to be interesting to see because snowflake has flat out said it's not straddling the cloud and on-prem rather it's all in on cloud but there is a big opportunity to connect on-prem to the cloud and across clouds which snowflake is pursuing that that ladder the cross-cloud the multi-cloud and snowflake is betting on incremental use cases that involve data sharing and federated governance while traditional players they're protecting their turf at the same time trying to compete in cloud native and of course across cloud i think there's room for both but clearly as we've shown cloud has the spending velocity and a tailwind at its back and aws along with microsoft seem to be getting stronger especially in the all-important categories related to machine intelligence ai and database now to be an essential infrastructure technology player in the data era it would seem obvious that you have to have database and or data management intellectual property in your portfolio or you're going to be less valuable to customers and investors okay we're going to leave it there for today remember these episodes they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen all you do is search breaking analysis podcast and please subscribe to the series check out etr's website at etr dot plus plus etr plus we also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com you can get in touch with me david.velante at siliconangle.com you can dm me at d vallante or you can hit hit me up on our linkedin post this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr have a great week stay safe be well and we'll see you next time you

>>Hello, and welcome. Very excited to see everybody here. DockerCon is going fantastic. Everybody's uh, engaging in the chat. It's awesome to see. My name is Peter McKee. I'm the head of developer relations here at Docker and Taber. Today. We're going to be talking about container first development now and in the future. But before we do that, a couple little housekeeping items, first of all, yes, we are live. So if you're in our session, you can go ahead and chat, ask us questions. We'd love to get all your questions and answer them. Um, if you come to the main page on the website and you do not see the chat, go ahead and click on the blue button and that'll die. Uh, deep dive you into our session and you can interact with the chat there. Okay. Without further ado, let's just jump right into it. Katie, how are you? Welcome. Do you mind telling everybody who you are and a little bit about yourself? >>Absolutely. Hello everyone. My name is Katie and currently I am the eco-system advocate at cloud native computing foundation or CNCF. My responsibility is to lead and represent the end-user community. So these are all the practitioners within the cloud native space that are vendor neutral. So they use cloud native technologies to build their services, but they don't sell it. So this is quite an important characteristic as well. My responsibility is to make sure to close the gap between these practitioners and the project maintainers, to make sure that there is a feedback loop around. Um, I have many roles within the community. I am on the advisory board for KIPP finishes, a sandbox project. I'm working with open UK to make sure that Elton standards are used fairly across data, hardware, and software. And I have been, uh, affiliated way if you'd asked me to make sure that, um, I'm distributing a cloud native fundamental scores to make cloud and they do a few bigger despite everyone. So looking forward to this panel and checking with everyone. >>Awesome. Yeah. Welcome. Glad to have you here. Johanna's how are you? Can you, uh, tell everybody a little bit about yourself and who you are? Yeah, sure. >>So hi everybody. My name is Johannes I'm one of the co-founders at get pot, which in case you don't know is an open-source and container based development platform, which is probably also the reason why you Peter reached out and invited me here. So pleasure to be here, looking forward to the discussion. Um, yeah, though it is already a bit later in Munich. Um, and actually my girlfriend had a remote cocktail class with her colleagues tonight and it took me some stamina to really say no to all the Moscow mules that were prepared just over there in my living room. Oh wow. >>You're way better than me. Yeah. Well welcome. Thanks for joining us. Jerome. How are you? Good to see you. Can you tell everybody who you are and a little bit about yourself? Hi, >>Sure. Yeah, so I'm, I, I used to work at Docker and some, for me would say I'm a container hipster because I was running containers in production before it for hype. Um, I worked at Docker before it was even called Docker. And then since 2018, I'm now a freelancer and doing training and consulting around Docker containers, Kubernetes, all these things. So I used to help folks do stuff with Docker when I was there and now I still have them with containers more generally speaking. So kind of, uh, how do we say same, same team, different company or something like that? Yeah. >>Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Good to see you. I'm glad you're on. Uh, Jacob, how are you? Good to see you. Thanks for joining us. Good. Yeah. Thanks for having me tell, tell everybody a little bit about yourself who you are. >>Yeah. So, uh, I'm the creator of a tool called mutagen, which is an open source, uh, development tool for doing high performance file synchronization and, uh, network forwarding, uh, to enable remote development. And so I come from like a physics background where I was sort of always doing, uh, remote developments, you know, whether that was on a big central clusters or just like some sort of local machine that was a bit more powerful. And so I, after I graduated, I built this tool called mutagen, uh, for doing remote development. And then to my surprise, people just started using it to use, uh, with Docker containers. And, uh, that's kind of grown into its primary use case now. So I'm, yeah, I've gotten really involved with the Docker community and, uh, talked with a lot of great people and now I'm one of the Docker captains. So I get to talk with even more and, and join these events and yeah, but I'm, I'm kind of focused on doing remote development. Uh, cause I, you know, I like, I like having all my tools available on my local machine, but I also like being able to pull in a little bit more powerful hardware or uh, you know, maybe a software that I can't run locally. And so, uh, that's sort of my interest in, in Docker container. Yeah. Awesome. >>Awesome. We're going to come back to that for sure. But yeah. Thank you again. I really appreciate you all joining me and yeah. So, um, I've been thinking about container first development for a while and you know, what does that actually mean? So maybe, maybe we can define it in our own little way. So I, I just throw it out to the panel. When you think about container first development, what comes to mind? What w what, what are you kind of thinking about? Don't be shy. Go ahead. Jerome. You're never a loss of words >>To me. Like if I go back to the, kind of the first, uh, you know, training engagements we did back at Docker and kind of helping folks, uh, writing Dockerfiles to stop developing in containers. Um, often we were replacing, um, uh, set up with a bunch of Vagrant boxes and another, like the VMs and combinations of local things. And very often they liked it a lot and they were very soon, they wanted to really like develop in containers, like run this microservice. This piece of code is whatever, like run that in containers because that means they didn't have to maintain that thing on their own machine. So that's like five years ago. That's what it meant to me back then. However, today, if you, if you say, okay, you know, developing in containers, um, I'm thinking of course about things like get bought and, uh, I think it's called PR or something like that. >>Like this theme, maybe that thing with the ESCO, that's going to run in a container. And you, you have this vs code thing running in your browser. Well, obviously not in your browser, but in a container that you control from your browser and, and many other things like that, that I, I think that's what we, where we want to go today. Uh, and that's really interesting, um, from all kinds of perspectives, like Chevy pair pairing when we will not next to each other, but actually thousands of miles away, um, or having this little environment that they can put aside and come back to it later, without it having using resource in my machine. Um, I don't know, having this dev service running somewhere in the cloud without needing something like, it's at the rights that are like the, the possibilities are really endless. >>Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. I'm, you know, a little while ago I was, I was torn, right. W do I spin up containers? Do I develop inside of my containers? Right. There's foul sinking issues. Um, you know, that we've been working on at Docker for a while, and Jacob is very, very familiar with those, right? Sometimes it, it becomes hard, but, and I, and I love developing in the cloud, but I also have this screaming, you know, fast machine sitting on my desktop that I think I should take advantage of. So I guess another question is, you know, should we be developing inside of containers? Is that a smart thing to do? Uh, I'd love to hear you guys' thoughts around that. >>You know, I think it's one of those things where it's, you know, for me container first development is really about, um, considering containers as sort of a first class citizen in, in terms of your development toolkit, right. I mean, there's not always that silver bullet, that's like the one thing you should use for everything. You know, you shouldn't, you shouldn't use containers if they're not fitting in or adding value to your workflow, but I think there's a lot of scenarios that are like, you know, super on super early on in the development process. Like as soon as you get the server kind of running and working and, you know, you're able to access it, you know, running on your local system. Uh that's I think that's when the value comes in to it to add containers to, you know, what you're doing or to your project. Right. I mean, for me, they're, um, they're more of a orchestrational tool, right? So if I don't have to have six different browser tabs open with like, you know, an API server running at one tab and a web server running in another tab and a database running in another tab, I can just kind of encapsulate those and, and use them as an automation thing. So I think, you know, even if you have a super powerful computer, I think there's still value in, um, using containers as, as a orchestrational mechanism. Yeah. Yeah, >>For sure. I think, I think one of the, one of my original aha moments with Docker was, oh, I can spin up different versions of a database locally and not have to install it and not have to configure it and everything, but, you know, it just ran inside of a container. And that, that was it. Although it's might seem simple to some people that's very, very powerful. Right. So I think being able to spin things up and containers very quickly is one of the super benefits. But yeah, I think, uh, developing in containers is, is hard right now, right. With, um, you know, and how do you do that? Right. Does anybody have any thoughts around, how do you go about that? Right. Should you use a container as just a development environment, so, you know, creating an image and then running it just with your dev tools in it, or do you just, uh, and maybe with an editor all inside of it, and it's just this process, that's almost like a VM. Um, yeah. So I'll just kick it back to the panel. I'd love to hear your thoughts on, you know, how do you set up and configure, uh, containers to develop in any thoughts around that? >>Maybe one step back again, to answer your question, what kind of container first development mean? I think it doesn't mean, um, by default that it has to be in the cloud, right? As you said, um, there are obvious benefits when it comes to the developer experience of containers, such as, I dunno, consistency, we have standardized tools dependencies for the dev side of things, but it also makes their dev environment more similar to all the pipeline that is somehow happening to the right, right. So CIC D all the way to production, it is security, right? Which also somehow comes with standardization. Um, but vulnerability scanning tools like sneak are doing a great job there. And, um, for us, it gets pod. One of the key reasons why we created get pod was literally creating this peace of mind for deaths. So from a developer's point of view, you do not need to take care anymore about all the hassle around setups and things that you will need to install. >>And locally, based on some outdated, REIT me on three operating systems in your company, everybody has something different and leading to these verbs in my machine situations, um, that really slow professional software developers down. Right. Um, back to your point, I mean, with good pod, we obviously have to package everything together in one container because otherwise, exactly the situation happens that you need to have five browser tabs open. So we try and leverage that. And I think a dev environment is not just the editor, right? So a dev environment includes your source code. It includes like a powerful shell. It includes file systems. It includes essentially all the tools you need in order to be productive databases and so on. And, um, yeah, we believe that should be encapsulated, um, um, in a container. >>Yeah. Awesome. Katie, you talked to a lot of end users, right. And you're talking to a lot of developers. What, what's your thoughts around container first development, right? Or, or what's the community out there screaming or screaming. It might be too to, uh, har you know, to, to two grand of the word. Right. But yeah, I love it. I love to hear what your, your thoughts. >>Absolutely. So I think when you're talking about continuing driven development, uh, the first thing that crosses my mind is the awareness of the infrastructure or the platform you're going to run your application on top of, because usually when you develop your application, you'd like to replicate as much as possible the production or even the staging environment to make sure that when you deploy your application, you have us little inconsistencies as possible, but at the same time, you minimize the risk for something to go wrong as well. So when it talking about the, the community, um, again, when you deploy applications and containers and Kubernetes, you have to use, you have awareness about, and probably apply some of the best practices, like introducing liveliness and readiness probes, to make sure that your application can restart in, in case it actually goes down or there's like a you're starving going CPU or something like that. >>So, uh, I think when it comes to deployment and development of an application, the main thing is to actually improve the end developer experience. I think there has been a lot of focus in the community to develop the tool, to actually give you the right tool to run application and production, but that doesn't necessarily, um, go back to how the end developer is actually enabling that application to run into that production system. So I think there has been, uh, this focus for the community identified now, and it's more, more, um, or trying to build momentum on enhancing the developer experience. And we've seen this going through many, uh, where we think production of many tools did what has been one of them, which actually we can have this portable, um, development environment if you choose so, and you can actually replicate them across different teams in different machines, which is actually quite handy. >>But at the same time, we had tools such as local composts has been a great tool to run locally. We have tool such as carefully, which is absolutely great to automatically dynamically upload any changes to how within your code. So I think all of these kinds of tools, they getting more matured. And again, this is going back to again, we need to enhance our developer experience coming back to what is the right way to do so. Um, I think it really depends on the environment you have in production, because there's going to define some of the structures with the tool and you're going to have internally, but at the same time, um, I'd like to say that, uh, it really depends on, on what trucks are developing. Uh, so it's, it's, I would like to personally, I would like to see a bit more diversification in this area because we might have this competitive solutions that is going to push us to towards a new edge. So this is like, what definitely developer experience. If we're talking about development, that's what we need to enhance. And that's what I see the momentum building at the moment. >>Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Jerome, I saw you shaking your head there in agreement, or maybe not, but what's your thoughts? >>I was, uh, I was just reacting until 82. Uh, it depends thinking that when I, when I do training, that's probably the answer that I gave the most, uh, each time somebody asks, oh, should we do diesel? And I was also looking at some of the questions in the chat about, Hey, the, should we like have a negatory in the, in the container or something like that. And folks can have pretty strong opinions one way or the other, but as a ways, it kind of depends what we do. It also depends of the team that we're working with. Um, you, you could have teams, you know, with like small teams with folks with lots of experience and they all come with their own Feb tools and editorials and plugins. So you know that like you're gonna have PRI iMacs out of my cold dead hands or something like that. >>So of course, if you give them something else, they're going to be extremely unhappy or sad. On the other hand, you can have team with folks who, um, will be less opinionated on that. And even, I don't know, let's say suddenly you start working on some project with maybe a new programming language, or maybe you're targeting some embedded system or whatever, like something really new and different. And you come up with all the tools, even the ADE, the extensions, et cetera, folks will often be extremely happy in that case that you're kind of giving them a Dettol and an ADE, even if that's not what they usually would, uh, would use, um, because it will come with all of the, the, the nice stage, you know, the compression, the, um, the, the, the bigger, the, whatever, all these things. And I think there is also something interesting to do here with development in containers. >>Like, Hey, you're going to start working on this extremely complex target based on whatever. And this is a container that has everything to get started. Okay. Maybe it's not your favorites editor, but it has all the customization and the conserver and whatever. Um, so you can start working right away. And then maybe later you, we want to, you know, do that from the container in a way, and have your own Emacs, atom, sublime, vs code, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but I think it's great for containers here, as well as they reserve or particularly the opportunity. And I think like the, that, that's one thing where I see stuff like get blood being potentially super interesting. Um, it's hard for me to gauge because I confess I was never a huge ID kind of person had some time that gives me this weird feeling, like when I help someone to book some, some code and you know, that like with their super nice IDE and everything is set up, but they feel kind of lost. >>And then at some point I'm like, okay, let's, let's get VI and grep and let's navigate this code base. And that makes me feel a little bit, you know, as this kind of old code for movies where you have the old, like colorful guy who knows going food, but at the end ends up still being obsolete because, um, it's only a going for movies that whole good for masters and the winning right. In real life, we don't have conformance there's anymore mentioned. So, um, but part of me is like, yeah, I like having my old style of editor, but when, when the modern editorial modern ID comes with everything set up and configured, that's just awesome. That's I, um, it's one thing that I'm not very good at sitting up all these little things, but when somebody does it and I can use it, it's, it's just amazing. >>Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I'm I feel the same way too. Right. I like, I like the way I've I have my environment. I like the tools that I use. I like the way they're set up. And, but it's a big issue, right? If you're switching machines, like you said, if you're helping someone else out there, they're not there, your key bindings aren't there, you can't, you can't navigate their system. Right? Yeah. So I think, you know, talking about, uh, dev environments that, that Docker's coming out with, and we're, you know, there's a lot, there, there's a, it's super complex, all these things we're talking about. And I think we're taking the approach of let's do something, uh, well, first, right. And then we can add on to that. Right. Because I think, you know, setting up full, full developed environments is hard, right. Especially in the, the, um, cloud native world nowadays with microservices, do you run them on a repo? >>Do you not have a monitor repo? Maybe that would be interesting to talk about. I think, um, you know, I always start out with the mono repos, right. And you have all your services in there and maybe you're using one Docker file. And then, because that works fine. Cause everything is JavaScript and node. And then you throw a little Python in there and then you throw a little go and now you start breaking things out and then things get too complex there, you know, and you start pulling everything out into different, get repos and now, right. Not everything just fits into these little buckets. Right. So how do you guys think maybe moving forward, how do we attack that night? How do we attack these? Does separate programming languages and environments and kind of bring them all together. You know, we, we, I hesitate, we solve that with compose around about running, right about executing, uh, running your, your containers. But, uh, developing with containers is different than running containers. Right. It's a, it's a different way to think about it. So anyway, sorry, I'm rattling on a little bit, but yeah. Be interesting to look at a more complex, uh, setup right. Of, uh, of, you know, even just 10 microservices that are in different get repos and different languages. Right. Just some thoughts. And, um, I'm not sure we all have this flushed out yet, but I'd love to hear your, your, you guys' thoughts around that. >>Jacob, you, you, you, you look like you're getting ready to jump there. >>I didn't wanna interrupt, but, uh, I mean, I think for me the issue isn't even really like the language boundary or, or, um, you know, a sub repo boundary. I think it's really about, you know, the infrastructure, right? Because you have, you're moving to an era where you have these cloud services, which, you know, some of them like S3, you can, you can mock up locally, uh, or run something locally in a container. But at some point you're going to have like, you know, cloud specific hardware, right? Like you got TPS or something that maybe are forming some critical function in your, in your application. And you just can't really replicate that locally, but you still want to be able to develop against that in some capacity. So, you know, my, my feeling about where it's going to go is you'll end up having parts of your application running locally, but then you also have, uh, you know, containers or some other, uh, element that's sort of cohabitating with, uh, you know, either staging or, or testing or production services that you're, uh, that you're working with. >>So you can actually, um, you know, test against a really or realistic simulation or the actual, uh, surface that you're running against in production. Because I think it's just going to become untenable to keep emulating all of that stuff locally, or to have to like duplicate these, you know, and, you know, I guess you can argue about whether or not it's a good thing that, that everything's moving to these kind of more closed off cloud services, but, you know, the reality of situation is that's where it's going to go. And there's certain hardware that you're going to want in the cloud, especially if you're doing, you know, machine learning oriented stuff that there's just no way you're going to be able to run locally. Right. I mean, if you're, even if you're in a dev team where you have, um, maybe like a central machine where you've got like 10 or 20 GPU's in it, that's not something that you're going to be able to, to, to replicate locally. And so that's how I kind of see that, um, you know, containers easing that boundary between different application components is actually maybe more about co-location, um, or having different parts of your application run in different locations, on different hardware, you know, maybe someone on your laptop, maybe it's someone, you know, AWS or Azure or somewhere. Yeah. It'd be interesting >>To start seeing those boundaries blur right. Working local and working in the cloud. Um, and you might even, you might not even know where something is exactly is running right until you need to, you know, that's when you really care, but yeah. Uh, Johanas, what's your thoughts around that? I mean, I think we've, we've talked previously of, of, um, you know, hybrid kind of environments. Uh, but yeah. What, what's your thoughts around that? >>Um, so essentially, yeah, I think, I mean, we believe that the lines between cloud and local will also potentially blur, and it's actually not really about that distinction. It's just packaging your dev environment in a way and provisioning your dev environment in a way that you are what we call always ready to coat. So that literally, um, you, you have that for the, you described as, um, peace of mind that you can just start to be creative and start to be productive. And if that is a container potentially running locally and containers are at the moment. I think, you know, the vehicle that we use, um, two weeks ago, or one week ago actually stack blitz announced the web containers. So potentially some things, well, it's run in the browser at some point, but currently, you know, Docker, um, is the standard that enables you to do that. And what we think will happen is that these cloud-based or local, um, dev environments will be what we call a femoral. So it will be similar to CIS, um, that we are using right now. And it doesn't literally matter, um, where they are running at the end. It's just, um, to reduce friction as much as possible and decrease and yeah, yeah. Essentially, um, avoid or the hustle that is currently involved in setting up and also managing dev environments, um, going forward, which really slows down specifically larger teams. >>Yeah. Yeah. Um, I'm going to shift gears a little bit here. We have a question from the audience in chat, uh, and it's, I think it's a little bit two parts, but so far as I can see container first, uh, development, have the challenges of where to get safe images. Um, and I was going to answer it, but let me keep it, let me keep going, where to get safe images and instrumentation, um, and knowing where exactly the problem is happening, how do we provide instrument instrumentation to see exactly where a problem might be happening and why? So I think the gist of it is kind of, of everything is in a container and I'm sitting outside, you know, the general thought around containers is isolation, right. Um, so how do I get views into that? Um, whether debugging or, or, or just general problems going on. I think that's maybe a broader question around the, how you, you know, you have your local hosts and then you're running everything containers, and what's the interplay there. W what's your thoughts there? >>I tend to think that containers are underused interactively. I mean, I think in production, you have this mindset that there's sort of this isolated environment, but it's very, actually simple to drop into a shell inside of a container and use it like you would, you know, your terminal. Um, so if you want to install software that way, you know, through, through an image rather than through like Homebrew or something, uh, you can kind of treat containers in that way and you can get a very, um, you know, direct access to the, to the space in which those are running in. So I think, I think that's maybe the step one is just like getting rid of that mindset, that, that these are all, um, you know, these completely encapsulated environments that you can't interact with because it's actually quite easy to just Docker exec into a container and then use it interactively >>Yeah. A hundred percent. And maybe I'll pass, I'm going to pass this question. You drone, but maybe demystify containers a little bit when I talked about this on the last, uh, panel, um, because we have a question in the, in the chat around, what's the, you know, why, why containers now I have VMs, right? And I think there's a misunderstanding in the industry, uh, about what, what containers are, we think they're fair, packaged stuff. And I think Jacob was hitting on that of what's underneath the hood. So maybe drown, sorry, for a long way to set up a question of what, what, what makes up a container, what is a container >>Is a container? Well, I, I think, um, the sharpest and most accurate and most articulate definition, I was from Alice gold first, and I will probably misquote her, but she said something like containers are a bunch of capsulated processes, maybe running on a cookie on welfare system. I'm not sure about the exact definition, but I'm going to try and, uh, reconstitute that like containers are just processes that run on a Unix machine. And we just happen to put a bunch of, um, red tape or whatever around them so that they are kind of contained. Um, but then the beauty of it is that we can contend them as much, or as little as we want. We can go kind of only in and put some actual VM or something like firecracker around that to give some pretty strong angulation, uh, all we can also kind of decontam theorize some aspects, you know, you can have a container that's actually using the, um, the, um, the network namespace of the host. >>So that gives it an entire, you know, wire speed access to the, to the network of the host. Um, and so to me, that's what really interesting, of course there is all the thing about, oh, containers are lightweight and I can pack more of them and they start fast and the images can be small, yada yada, yada. But to me, um, with my background in infrastructure and building resilient, things like that, but I find really exciting is the ability to, you know, put the slider wherever I need it. Um, the, the, the ability to have these very light containers, all very heavily, very secure, very anything, and even the ability to have containers in containers. Uh, even if that sounds a little bit, a little bit gimmicky at first, like, oh, you know, like you, you did the Mimi, like, oh, I heard you like container. >>So I put Docker when you're on Docker. So you can run container for you, run containers. Um, but that's actually extremely convenient because, um, as soon as you stop building, especially something infrastructure related. So you challenge is how do you test that? Like, when we were doing.cloud, we're like, okay, uh, how do we provision? Um, you know, we've been, if you're Amazon, how do you provision the staging for us installed? How do you provision the whole region, Jen, which is actually staging? It kind of makes things complicated. And the fact that we have that we can have containers within containers. Uh, that's actually pretty powerful. Um, we're also moving to things where we have secure containers in containers now. So that's super interesting, like stuff like a SIS box, for instance. Um, when I saw that, that was really excited because, uh, one of the horrible things I did back in the days as Docker was privileged containers, precisely because we wanted to have Docker in Docker. >>And that was kind of opening Pandora's box. That's the right, uh, with the four, because privileged containers can do literally anything. They can completely wreck up the machine. Um, and so, but at the same time, they give you the ability to run VPNs and run Docker in Docker and all these cool things. You can run VM in containers, and then you can list things. So, um, but so when I saw that you could actually have kind of secure containers within containers, like, okay, there is something really powerful and interesting there. And I think for folks, well, precisely when you want to do development in containers, especially when you move that to the cloud, that kind of stuff becomes a really important and interesting because it's one thing to have my little dev thing on my local machine. It's another thing when I want to move that to a swarm or Kubernetes cluster, and then suddenly even like very quickly, I hit the wall, which is, oh, I need to have containers in my containers. Um, and then having a runtime, like that gets really intense. >>Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, and jumping back a bit, um, yeah, uh, like you said, drum at the, at the base of it, it containers just a, a process with, with some, uh, Abra, pardon me, operating constructs wrapped around it and see groups, namespaces those types of things. But I think it's very important to, for our discussion right. Of, uh, developers really understanding that, that this is just the process, just like a normal process when I spin up my local bash in my term. Uh, and I'm just interacting with that. And a lot of the things we talk about are more for production runtimes for securing containers for isolating them locally. I don't, I don't know. I'll throw the question out to the panel. Is that really relevant to us locally? Right. Do we want to pull out all of those restrictions? What are the benefits of containers for development, right. And maybe that's a soft question, but I'd still love to hear your thoughts. Maybe I'll kick it over to you, Katie, would you, would you kick us off a little bit with that? >>I'll try. Um, so I think when, again, I was actually thinking of the previous answers because maybe, maybe I could do a transition here. So, interesting, interesting about containers, a piece of trivia, um, the secrets and namespaces have been within the Linux kernel since 2008, I think, which just like more than 10 years ago, hover containers become popular in the last years. So I think it's, it's the technology, but it's about the organization adopting this technology. So I think why it got more popular now is because it became the business differentiator organizations started to think, how can I deliver value to my customers as quickly as possible? So I think that there should be this kind of two lane, um, kind of progress is the technology, but it's at the same time organization and cultural now are actually essential for us to develop, uh, our applications locally. >>Again, I think when it's a single application, if you have just one component, maybe it's easier for you to kind of run it locally, have a very simple testing environment. Sufficient is a container necessary, probably not. However, I think it's more important when you're thinking to the bigger picture. When we have an architecture that has myriads of microservices at the basis, when it's something that you have to expose, for example, an API, or you have to consume an API, these are kind of things where you might need to think about a lightweight set up within the containers, only local environment to make sure that you have at least a similar, um, environment or a configuration to make sure that you test some of the expected behavior. Um, I think the, the real kind of test you start from the, the dev cluster will like the dev environment. >>And then like for, for you to go to staging and production, you will get more clear into what exactly that, um, um, configuration should be in the end. However, at the same time, again, it's, it's more about, um, kind of understanding why you continue to see this, the thing, like, I don't say that you definitely need containers at all times, but there are situations when you have like, again, multiple services and you need to replicate them. It's just the place to, to, to work with these kind of, um, setups. So, um, yeah, really depends on what you're trying to develop here. Nothing very specific, unfortunately, but get your product and your requirements are going to define what you're going to work with. >>Yeah, no, I think that's a great answer, right. I think one of the best answers in, in software engineering and engineering in general as well, it depends. Right. It's things are very specific when we start getting down to the details, but yeah, generally speaking, you know, um, I think containers are good for development, but yeah, it depends, right. It really depends. Is it helping you then? Great. If it's hindering you then, okay. Maybe think what's, what's the hindrance, right. And are containers the right solution. I agree. 110% and, >>And everything. I would like absurd this too as well. When we, again, we're talking about the development team and now we have this culture where we have the platform and infrastructure team, and then you have your engineering team separately, especially when the regulations are going to be segregated. So, um, it's quite important to understand that there might be a, uh, a level of up-skilling required. So pushing for someone to use containers, because this is the right way for you to develop your application might be not, uh, might not be the most efficient way to actually develop a product because you need to spend some time to make sure that the, the engineering team has the skills to do so. So I think it's, it's, again, going back to my answers here is like, truly be aware of how you're trying to develop how you actually collaborate and having that awareness of your platform can be quite helpful in developing your, uh, your publication, the more importantly, having less, um, maybe blockers pushing it to a production system. >>Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. The, uh, the cultural issue is, is, um, within the organization, right. Is a very interesting thing. And it, and I would submit that it's very hard from top down, right. Pushing down tools and processes down to the dev team, man, we'll just, we'll just rebel. It usually comes from the bottom up. Right. What's working for us, we're going to do right. And whether we do it in the shadows and don't let it know, or, or we've conformed, right. Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, interesting. I would like to think a little bit in the future, right? Like, let's say, I don't know, two, three years from now, if, if y'all could wave a and I'm from Texas. So I say y'all, uh, if you all could wave a magic wand, what, what, what would that bring about right. What, what would, what would be the best scenario? And, and we just don't have to say containers. Right. But, you know, what's the best development environment and I'm going to kick it over to you, Jacob. Cause I think you hinted at some of that with some hybrid type of stuff, but, uh, yeah. Implies, they need to keep you awake. You're, you're, you're, uh, almost on the other side of the world for me, but yeah, please. >>Um, I think, you know, it's, it's interesting because you have this technology that you've been, that's been brought from production, so it's not, um, necessarily like the right or the normal basis for development. So I think there's going to be some sort of realignment or renormalization in terms of, uh, you know, what the, what the basis and the abstractions that we're using on a daily basis are right. Like images and containers as they exist now are really designed for, um, for production use cases. And, and in terms of like, even even the ergonomics of opening a shell inside a container, I think is something that's, um, you know, not as polished or not as smooth as it could be because they've come from production. And so I think it's important, like not to, not to have people look at, look at the technology as it exists now and say like, okay, this is slightly rough around the edges, or it wasn't designed for this use case and think, oh, there's, you know, there's never any way I could use this for, for my development of workflows. >>I think it's, you know, it's something Docker's exploring now with, uh, with the, uh, dev containers, you know, it's, it's a new, and it's an experimental paradigm and it may not be what the final picture looks like. As, you know, you were saying, there's going to be kind of a baseline and you'll add features to that or iterate on that. Um, but I think that's, what's interesting about it, right? Cause it's, there's not a lot of things as developers that you get to play with that, um, that are sort of the new technology. Like if you're talking about things you're building to ship, you want to kind of use tried and true components that, you know, are gonna, that are going to be reliable. But I think containers are that interesting point where it's like, this is an established technology, but it's also being used in a way now that's completely different than what it was designed for. And, and, you know, as hackers, I think that's kind of an interesting opportunity to play with it, but I think, I think that's, what's going to happen is you're just going to see kind of those production, um, designed, uh, knobs kind of sanded down or redesigned for, for development. So that's kind of where I see it going. >>Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what I was trying to hint out earlier is like, um, yeah, just because all these things are there, does it actually mean we need them locally? Right. Do they make sense? I, I agree. A hundred percent, uh, anybody else drawn? What are your thoughts around that? And then, and then, uh, I'll probably just ask all of you. I'd love to hear each of your thoughts of the future. >>I had a thought was maybe unrelated, but I was kind of wondering if we would see something on the side of like energy efficiency in some way. Um, and maybe it's just because I've been thinking a lot about like climate change and things like that recently, and trying to reduce like the, uh, the energy use energy use and things like that. Perhaps it's also because I recently got a new laptop, which on paper is super awesome, but in practice, as soon as you try to have like two slack tabs and a zoom call, you know, it's super fast, both for 30 seconds. And after 30 seconds, it blows its thermal budget and it's like slows down to a crawl. And I started to think, Hmm, maybe, you know, like before we, we, we were thinking about, okay, I don't have that much CPU available. So you have to be kind of mindful about that. >>And now I wonder how are we going to get in something similar to that, but where you try to save CPU cycles, not just because you don't have that many CPU cycles, but more because you know, that you can't go super fast for super long when you are on one of these like small laptops or tablets or phones, like you have this demo budget to take into account. And, um, I wonder if, and how like, is there something where goaltenders can do some things here? I guess it can be really interesting if they can do some the equivalent of like Docker top and Docker stats. And if I could see, like how much what's are these containers using, I can already do that with power top on Linux, for instance, like process by process. So I'm thinking I could see what's the power usage of, of some containers. Um, and I wonder if down the line, is this going to be something useful or is this just silly because we can just masquerade CPU usage for, for Watson and forget about it. >>Yeah. Yeah. It was super, super interesting, uh, perspective for sure. I'm going to shut up because I want to, I want to give, make sure I give Johannes and Katie time. W w what are your thoughts of the future around, let's just say, you know, container development in general, right? You want, you want to start absolutely. Oh, honest, Nate. Johns wants more time. I say, I'll try not to. Beneficiate >>Expensive here, but, um, so one of the things that we've we've touched upon earlier in the panel was multicloud strategy. And I was reading one of the data reports from it was about the concept of Kubernetes from gamer Townsville. But what is working for you to see there is that more and more organizations are thinking about multicloud strategy, which means that you need to develop an application or need an infrastructure or a component, which will allow you to run this application bead on a public cloud bead, like locally in a data center and so forth. And here, when it comes to this kind of, uh, maybe problems we come across open standards, this is where we require something, which will allow us to execute our application or to run our platform in different environments. So when you're thinking about the application or development of the application, one of the things that, um, came out in 2019 at was the Oakland. >>Um, I wish it was Kybella, which is a, um, um, an open application model based application, which allows you to describe the way you would like your service to be executed in different environments. It doesn't need to be well developed specifically for communities. However, the open application model is specialized. So specialized tries to cover multiple platforms. You will be able to execute your application anywhere you want it to. So I think that that's actually quite important because it completely obstructs what is happening underneath it, completely obstructs notions, such as containers, uh, or processes is just, I want this application and I want to have this kind of behavior is so example of, to scale in this conditions or to, um, to be exposed for these, uh, end points and so forth. And everything that I would like to mention here is that maybe this transcends again, the, uh, the logistics of the application development, but it definitely will impact the way we run our applications. >>So one of the biggest, well, one of the new trends that is kind of gaining momentum now has been around Plaza. And this is again, something which is trying to present what we have the on containers. Again, it's focusing on the, it's kind of a cyclical, um, uh, action movement that we have here. When we moved from the VMs to containers, it was smaller footprint. We want like better execution, one, this agnosticism of the platforms. We have the same thing happening here with Watson, but again, it consents a new, um, uh, kind of, well, it teaches in you, uh, in new climax here, where again, we shrink the footprint of the cluster. We have a better isolation of all the services. We have a better trend, like portability of how services and so forth. So there is a great potential out there. And again, like why I'm saying this is some of these technologies are gonna define the way we're gonna do our development of the application on our local environment. >>That's why it's important to kind of maybe have an eye there and maybe see if some of those principles of some of those technologies we can bring internally as well. And just this, like a, a final thought here, um, security has been mentioned as well. Um, I think it's something which has been, uh, at the forefront, especially when it comes to containers, uh, especially when it comes to enterprise organizations and those who are regulated, which I feel come very comfortable to run their application within a VM where you have the full isolation, you can do what we have complete control of what's happening inside that compute. So, um, again, security has been at the forefront at the moment. So I know it has mentioned in the panel before. I'd like to mention that we have the security white paper, which has been published. We have the software supply chain, white paper as well, which twice to figure out or define some of these good practices as well, again, which you can already apply from your development environment and then propagate them to production. So I'm just going to leave, uh, all of these. That's all. >>That's awesome. And yeah, well, while is very, very interesting. I saw the other day that, um, and I forget who it was, maybe, maybe all can remember, um, you know, running, running the node, um, engine inside of, you know, in Walzem inside of a browser. Right. And, uh, at first glance I said, well, we already have a JavaScript execution engine. Right. And it's kind of like Docker and Docker. So you have, uh, you know, you have the browser, then, then you have blossom and then you have a node, you know, a JavaScript runtime. And, and I didn't understand was while I was, um, you know, actually executing is JavaScript and it's not, but yeah, it's super interesting, super powerful. I always felt that the browser was, uh, Java's what write once run anywhere kind of solution, right. That never came about, they were thinking of set top, uh, TV boxes and stuff like that, which is interesting. >>I don't know, you'll some of the history of Java, but yeah. Wasm is, is very, I'm not sure how to correctly pronounce it, but yeah, it's extremely interesting because of the isolation in that boxing. Right. And running powerful languages that were used to inside of a more isolated environment. Right. And it's almost, um, yeah, it's kind of, I think I've mentioned it before that the containers inside of containers, right. Um, yeah. So Johannes, hopefully I gave you enough time. I delayed, I delayed as much as I can. My friend, you better, you better just kidding. I'm just kidding, please, please. >>It was by the way, stack let's and they worked together with Google and with Russell, um, developing the web containers, it's called there's, it's quite interesting. The research they're doing there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what we believe and I, I also believe is that, um, yeah, probably somebody is doing to death environments, what Docker did to servers and at least that good part. We hope that somebody will be us. Um, so what we mean by that is that, um, we think today we are still somehow emotionally attached to our dev environments. Right. We give them names, we massage them over time, which can also have its benefits, but it's, they're still pets in some way. Right. And, um, we believe that, um, environments in the future, um, will be treated similar like servers today as automated resources that you can just spin up and close down whenever you need them. >>Right. And, um, this trend essentially that you also see in serverless, if you look at what kind of Netlify is doing a bit with preview environments, what were sellers doing? Um, there, um, we believe will also arrive at, um, at Steph environments. It probably won't be there tomorrow. So it will take some time because if there's also, you know, emotion involved into, in that, in that transition, but ultimately really believe that, um, provisioning dev environments also in the cloud allows you to leverage the power of the cloud and to essentially build all that stuff that you need in order to work in advance. Right? So that's literally either command or a button. So either, I don't know, a command that spins up your local views code and SSH into, into a container, or you do it in a browser, um, will be the way that professional development teams will develop in the future. Probably let's see in our direction of document, we say it's 2000 to 23. Let's see if that holds true. >>Okay. Can we, can, we let's know. Okay. Let's just say let's have a friendly bet. I don't know that's going to be closed now, but, um, yeah, I agree. I, you know, it's my thought around is it, it's hard, right? Th these are hard. And what problems do you tackle first, right? Do you tackle the day, one of, uh, you know, of development, right. I joined a team, Hey, here's your machine? And you have Docker installed and there you go, pull, pull down your environment. Right. Is that necessarily just an image? You know, what, what exactly is that sure. Containers are involved. Right. But that's, I mean, you, you've probably all gone through it. You joined a team, new project, even open-source project, right there. There's a huge hurdle just to get everything configured, to get everything installed, to get it up and running, um, you know, set aside all understanding the code base. >>Cause that's a different issue. Right. But just getting everything running locally and to your point earlier, Jacob of around, uh, recreating, local production cues and environments and, you know, GPS or anything like that, right. Is extremely hard. You can't do a lot of that locally. Right. So I think that's one of the things I'd love to see tackled. And I think that's where we're tackling in dev environments, uh, with Docker, but then now how do you become productive? Right. And where do we go from there? And, uh, and I would love to see this kind of hybrid and you guys have been all been talking about it where I can, yes. I have it configured everything locally on my nice, you know, apple notebook. Right. And then, you know, I go with the family and we go on vacation. I don't want to drag this 16 inch, you know, Mac laptop with me. >>And I want to take my nice iPad with the magic keyboard and all the bang stuff. Right. And I just want to fire up and I pick up where I left off. Right. And I keep coding and environment feels, you know, as much as it can that I'm still working at backup my desktop. I think those, those are very interesting to me. And I think reproducing, uh, the production running runtime environments as close as possible, uh, when I develop my, I think that's extremely powerful, extremely powerful. I think that's one of the hardest things, right. It's it's, uh, you know, we used to say, we, you debug in production. Right. We would launch, right. We would do, uh, as much performance testing as possible. But until you flip that switch on a big, on a big site, that's where you really understand what is going to break. >>Right. Well, awesome. I think we're just about at time. I really, really appreciate everybody joining me. Um, it's been a pleasure talking to all of you. We have to do this again. If I, uh, hopefully, you know, I I'm in here in America and we seem to be doing okay with COVID, but I know around the world, others are not. So my heart goes out to them, but I would love to be able to get out of here and come see all of you and meet you in person, maybe break some bread together. But, um, again, it was a pleasure talking to you all, and I really appreciate you taking the time. Have a good evening. Cool. >>Thanks for having us. Thanks for joining us. Yes.

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante cloud repatriation is a term often used by technology companies the ones that don't operate a public cloud the marketing narrative most typically implies that customers have moved work to the public cloud and for a variety of reasons expense performance security etc are disillusioned with the cloud and as a result are repatriating workloads back to their safe comfy and cost-effective on-premises data center while we have no doubt this does sometimes happen the data suggests that this is a single digit de minimis phenomenon hello and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr some have written about the repatriation myth but in this breaking analysis we'll share hard data that we feel debunks the narrative and is currently being promoted by some we'll also take this opportunity to do our quarterly cloud revenue update and share with you our latest figures for the big four cloud vendors let's start by acknowledging that the definition of cloud is absolutely evolving and in this sense much of the vendor marketing is valid no longer is cloud just a distant set of remote services that lives up there in the cloud the cloud is increasingly becoming a ubiquitous sensing thinking acting set of resources that touches nearly every aspect of our lives the cloud is coming on prem and work is being done to connect clouds to each other and the cloud is extending to the near and far edge there's little question about that today's cloud is not just compute storage connectivity and spare capacity but increasingly it's a variety of services to analyze data and predict slash anticipate changes monitor and interpret streams of information apply machine intelligence to data to optimize business outcomes it's tooling to share data protect data visualize data and bring data to life supporting a whole new set of innovative applications notice there's a theme there data increasingly the cloud is where the high value data lives from a variety of sources and it's where organizations go to mine it because the cloud vendors have the best platforms for data and this is part of why the repatriation narrative is somewhat dubious actually a lot dubious because the volume of data in the cloud is growing at rates much faster than data on prem at least by a couple thousand basis points by our estimates annually so cloud data is where the action is and we'll talk about the edge in a moment but a new era of application development is emerging with containers at the center the concept of write wants run anywhere allows developers to take advantage of systems that run on-prem say a transaction system and tap data from multiple sources in various locations there might be multiple clouds or at the edge or wherever and combine that with immense cheap processing power that we've discussed extensively in previous breaking analysis episodes and you see this new breed of apps emerging that's powered by ai those are hitting the market so this is not a zero-sum game the cloud vendors have given the world an infrastructure gift by spending like crazy on capex more than a hundred billion last year on capex for example for the big four and in our view the players that don't own a cloud should stop being so defensive about it they should thank the hyperscalers and lay out a vision as to how they'll create a new abstraction layer on top of the public cloud and you know that's what they're doing and they'll certainly claim to be actively working on this vision but consider the pace of play between the hyperscalers and their traditional on-prem providers we believe the innovation gap is actually widening meaning the public cloud players are accelerating their innovation lead and will 100 compete for hybrid applications they have the resources the developer affinity they're doing custom silicon and have the expertise there and the tam expansion goals that loom large so while it's not a zero-sum game and hybrid is definitely real we think the cloud vendors continue to gain share most rapidly unless the hybrid crowd can move faster now of course there's the edge and that is a wild card but it seems that again the cloud players are very well positioned to innovate with custom silicon programmable infrastructure capex build-outs at the edge and new thinking around system architectures but let's get back to the core story here and take a look at cloud adoptions you hear many marketing messages that call into question the public cloud at its recent think conference ibm ceo arvind krishna said that only about 25 of workloads had moved into the public cloud and he made the statement that you know this might surprise you implying you might think it should be much higher than that well we're not surprised by that figure especially especially if you narrow it to mission critical work which ibm does in its annual report actually we think that's probably high for mission critical work moving to the cloud we think it's a lot lower than that but regardless we think there are other ways to measure cloud adoption and this chart here from david michelle's book c seeing digital shows the adoption rates for major technological innovations over the past century and the number of years how many years it took to get to 50 percent household adoption electricity took a long time as did telephones had that infrastructure that last mile build out radios and tvs were much faster given the lower infrastructure requirements pcs actually took a long time and the web around nine years from when the mosaic browser was introduced we took a stab at estimating the pace of adoption of public cloud and and within a decade it reached 50 percent adoption in top enterprises and today that figures easily north of 90 so as we said at the top cloud adoption is actually quite strong and that adoption is driving massive growth for the public cloud now we've updated our quarterly cloud figures and want to share them with you here are our latest estimates for the big four cloud players with only alibaba left to report now remember only aws and alibaba report clean or relatively clean i ass figures so we use survey data and financial analysis to estimate the actual numbers for microsoft in google it's a subset of what they report in q121 we estimate that the big 4is and pas revenue approached 27 billion that's q121 that figure represents about 40 growth relative to q1 2020. so our trailing 12-month calculation puts us at 94 billion so we're now on roughly 108 billion dollar run rate as you may recall we've predicted that figure will surpass 115 billion by year end when it's all said and done aws it remains the leader amongst the big four with just over half of the market that's down from around 63 percent for the full year of 2018. unquestionably as we've reported microsoft they're everywhere they're ubiquitous in the market and they continue to perform very well but anecdotally customers and partners in our community continue to report to us that the quality of the aws cloud is noticeably better in terms of reliability and overall security etc but it doesn't seem to change the trajectory of the share movements as microsoft's software dominance makes doing business with azure really easy now as of this recording alibaba has yet to report but we'll update these figures once their earnings are released let's dig into the growth rates associated with these revenue figures and make some specific comments there this chart here shows the growth trajectory for each of the big four google trails the pack in revenue but it's growing faster than the others from of course a smaller base google is being very aggressive on pricing and customer acquisition to that we say good google needs to grow faster in our view and they most certainly can afford to be aggressive as we said combined the big four are growing revenue at 40 on a trailing 12-month basis and that compares with low single-digit growth for on-prem infrastructure and we just don't see this picture changing in the near to midterm like storage growth revenue from the big public cloud players is expected to outpace spending on traditional on on-prem platforms by at least 2 000 basis points for the foreseeable future now interestingly while aws is growing more slowly than the others from a much larger 54 billion run rate we actually saw sequential quarterly growth from aws and q1 which breaks a two-year trend from where aws's q1 growth rate dropped sequentially from q4 interesting now of course at aws we're watching the changing of the guards andy jassy becoming ceo of amazon adam silipsky boomeranging back to aws from a very successful stint at tableau and max peterson taking over for for aws public sector replacing teresa carlson who is now president and heading up go to market at splunk so lots of changes and we think this is actually a real positive for aws as it promotes from within we like that it taps previous amazon dna from tableau salesforce and it promotes the head of aws to run all of amazon a signal to us that amazon will dig its heels in and further resist calls to split aws from the mothership so let's dig in a little bit more to this repatriation mythbuster theme the revenue numbers don't tell the entire story so it's worth drilling down a bit more let's look at the demand side of the equation and pull in some etr survey data now to set this up we want to explain the fundamental method used by etr around its net score metric net score measures spending momentum and measures five factors as shown in this wheel chart that shows the breakdown of spending for the aws cloud it shows the percentage of customers within the platform that are either one adopting the platform new that's the lime green in this wheel chart two increasing spending by more than five percent that's the forest green three flat spending between plus or minus five percent that's the gray and four decreasing spend by six percent or more that's the pink and finally five replacing the platform that's the bright red now dare i say that the bright red is a proxy for or at least an indicator of repatriation sure why not let's say that now net score is derived by subtracting the reds from the greens anything above 40 percent we consider to be elevated aws is at 57 so very high not much sign of leaving the cloud nest there but we know it's nuanced and you can make an argument for corner cases of repatriation but come on the numbers just don't bear out that narrative let's compare aws with some of the other vendors to test this theory theory a bit more this chart lines up net score granularity for aws microsoft and google it compares that to ibm and oracle now other than aws and google these figures include the entire portfolio for each company but humor me and let's make an assumption that cloud defections are lower than the overall portfolio average because cloud has more momentum it's getting more spend spending so just stare at the red bars for a moment the three cloud players show one two and three percent replacement rates respectively but ibm and oracle while still in the single digits which is good show noticeably higher replacement rates and meaningfully lower new adoptions in the lime green as well the spend more category in the forest green is much higher within the cloud companies and the spend less in the pink is notably lower and you can see the sample sizes on the right-hand side of the chart we're talking about many hundreds over 1300 in the case of microsoft and if we look if we put hpe or dell in the charts it would say several hundred responses many hundreds it would look similar to ibm and oracle where you have higher reds a bigger fat middle of gray and lower greens it's just the way it is it shouldn't surprise anyone and it's you know these are respectable but it's just what happens with mature companies so if customers are repatriating there's little evidence here we believe what's really happening is that vendor marketing people are talking to customers who are purposefully spinning up test and dev work in the cloud with the intent of running a workload or portions of that workload on prem and when they move into production they're counting that as repatriation and they're taking liberties with the data to flood the market okay well that's fair game and all's fair in tech marketing but that's not repatriation that's experimentation or sandboxing or testing and deving it's not i'm leaving the cloud because it's too expensive or less secure or doesn't perform for me we're not saying that those things don't happen but it's certainly not visible in the numbers as a meaningful trend that should factor into buying decisions now we perfectly recognize that organizations can't just refactor their entire applications application portfolios into the cloud and migrate and we also recognize that lift and shift without a change in operating model is not the best strategy in real migrations they take a long time six months to two years i used to have these conversations all the time with my colleague stu miniman and i spoke to him recently about these trends and i wanted to see if six months at red hat and ibm had changed his thinking on all this and the answer was a clear no but he did throw a little red hat kool-aid at me saying saying that the way they think about the cloud blueprint is from a developer perspective start by containerizing apps and then the devs don't need to think about where the apps live whether they're in the cloud whether they're on prem where they're at the edge and red hat the story is brings a consistency of operations for developers and operators and admins and the security team etc or any plat on any platform but i don't have to lock in to a platform and bring that everywhere with me i can work with anyone's platform so that's a very strong story there and it's how arvin krishna plans to win what he calls the architectural battle for hybrid cloud okay so let's take a take a look at how the big cloud vendors stack up with the not so big cloud platforms and all those in between this chart shows one of our favorite views plotting net score or spending velocity on the vertical axis and market share or pervasiveness in the data set on the horizontal axis the red shaded area is what we call the hybrid zone and the dotted red lines that's where the elite live anything above 40 percent net score on the on on the vertical axis we consider elevated anything to the right of 20 on the horizontal axis implies a strong market presence and by those kpis it's really a two horse race between aws and microsoft now as we suggested google still has a lot of work to do and if they're out buying market share that's a start now you see alibaba shown in the upper left hand corner high spending momentum but from a small sample size as etr's china respondent level is obviously much lower than it is in the u.s and europe and the rest of apac now that shaded res red zone is interesting and gives credence to the other big non-cloud owning vendor narrative that is out there that is the world is hybrid and it's true over the past several quarters we've seen this hybrid zone performing well prominent examples include vmware cloud on aws vmware cloud which would include vcf vmware cloud foundation dell's cloud which is heavily based on vmware and red hat open shift which perhaps is the most interesting given its ubiquity as we were talking about before and you can see it's very highly elevated on the net score axis right there with all the public cloud guys red hat is essentially the switzerland of cloud which in our view puts it in a very strong position and then there's a pack of companies hovering around the 20 vertical axis level that are hybrid that by the way you see openstack there that's from a large telco presence in the data set but any rate you see hpe oracle and ibm ibm's position in the cloud just tells you how important red hat is to ibm and without that acquisition you know ibm would be far less interesting in this picture oracle is oracle and actually has one of the strongest hybrid stories in the industry within its own little or not so little world of the red stack hpe is also interesting and we'll see how the big green lake ii as a service pricing push will impact its momentum in the cloud category remember the definition of cloud here is whatever the customer says it is so if a cio says we're buying cloud from hpe or ibm or cisco or dell or whomever we take her or his word for it and that's how it works cloud is in the eye of the buyer so you have the cloud expanding into the domain of on-premises and the on-prem guys finally getting their proverbial acts together with hybrid that they've been talking about since 2009 but it looks like it's finally becoming real and look it's true you're not going to migrate everything into the cloud but the cloud folks are in a very strong position they are on the growth flywheel as we've shown they each have adjacent businesses that are data based disruptive and dominant whether it's in retail or search or a huge software estate they are winning the data wars as well that seems to be pretty clear to us and they have a leg up in ai and i want to look at that can we all agree that ai is important i think we can machine intelligence is being infused into every application and today much of the ai work is being done in the cloud as modeling but in the future we see ai moving to the edge in real time and real-time inferencing is a dominant workload but today again 90 of it is building models and analyzing data a lot of that work happens in the cloud so who has the momentum in ai let's take a look here's that same xy graph with the net score against market share and look who has the dominant mind share and position and spending momentum microsoft aws and google you can see in the table insert in the lower right hand side they're the only three in the data set of 1 500 responses that have more than 100 n aws and microsoft have around 200 or even more in the case of microsoft and their net scores are all elevated above the 60 percent level remember that 40 percent that red line indicates the elevation mark the high elevation mark so the hyperscalers have both the market presence and the spend momentum so we think the rich get richer now they're not alone there are several companies above the 40 line databricks is bringing ai and data science to the world of data lakes with its managed services and it's executing very well salesforce is infusing infusing ai into its platform via einstein you got sap on there anaconda is kind of the gold standard that platform for data science and you can see c3 dot ai is tom siebel's company going after enterprise ai and data robot which like c3 ai is a small sample in the data set but they're highly elevated and they're simplifying machine learning now there's ibm watson it's actually doing okay i mean sure we'd like to see it higher given that ginny rometty essentially bet ibm's future on watson but it has a decent presence in the market and a respectable net score and ibm owns a cloud so okay at least it's a player not the dominance that many had hoped for when watson beat ken jennings in jeopardy back 10 years ago but it's okay and then is oracle they're now getting into the act like it always does they want they watched they waited they invested they spent money on r d and then boom they dove into the market and made a lot of noise and acted like they invented the concept oracle is infusing ai into its database with autonomous database and autonomous data warehouse and look that's what oracle does it takes best of breed industry concepts and technologies to make its products better you got to give oracle credit it invests in real tech and it runs the most mission critical apps in the world you can hate them if you want but they smoke everybody in that game all right let's take a look at another view of the cloud players and see how they stack up and where the big spenders live in the all-important fortune 500 this chart shows net score over time within the fortune 500 aws is particularly interesting because its net score overall is in the high 50s but in this large big spender category aws net score jumps noticeably to nearly 70 percent so there's a strong indication that aws the largest player also has momentum not just with small companies and startups but where it really counts from a revenue perspective in the largest companies so we think that's a very positive sign for aws all right let's wrap the realities of cloud repatriation are clear corner cases exist but it's not a trend to take to the bank although many public cloud users may think about repatriation most will not act on it those that do are the exception not the rule and the etr data shows that test and dev in the clouds is part of the cloud operating model even if the app will ultimately live on prem that's not repatriation that's just smart development practice and not every workload is will or should live in the cloud hybrid is real we agree and the big cloud players know it and they're positioning to bring their stacks on prem and to the edge and despite the risk of a lock-in and higher potential monthly bills and concerns over control the hyperscalers are well com positioned to compete in hybrid to win hybrid the legacy vendors must embrace the cloud and build on top of those giants and add value where the clouds aren't going to or can't or won't they got to find places where they can move faster than the hyperscalers and so far they haven't shown a clear propensity to do that hey that's how we see it what do you think okay well remember these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen you do a search breaking analysis podcast and please subscribe to the series check out etr's website at dot plus we also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com a lot of ways to get in touch you can email me at david.velante at siliconangle.com or dm me at dvalante on twitter comment on our linkedin post i always appreciate that this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr have a great week everybody stay safe be well and we'll see you next time you