(soft techno upbeat music) >> Hi there. Welcome back to Las Vegas. This is Dave Villante with Paul Gillon. Reinvent day one and a half. We started last night, Monday, theCUBE after dark. Now we're going wall to wall. Today. Today was of course the big keynote, Adam Selipsky, kind of the baton now handing, you know, last year when he did his keynote, he was very new. He was sort of still getting his feet wet and finding his guru swing. Settling in a little bit more this year, learning a lot more, getting deeper into the tech, but of course, sharing the love with other leaders like Peter DeSantis. Tomorrow's going to be Swamy in the keynote. Adrian Cockcroft is here. Former AWS, former network Netflix CTO, currently an analyst. You got your own firm now. You're out there. Great to see you again. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Yeah, thanks. >> We heard you on at Super Cloud, you gave some really good insights there back in August. So now as an outsider, you come in obviously, you got to be impressed with the size and the ecosystem and the energy. Of course. What were your thoughts on, you know what you've seen so far, today's keynotes, last night Peter DeSantis, what stood out to you? >> Yeah, I think it's great to be back at Reinvent again. We're kind of pretty much back to where we were before the pandemic sort of shut it down. This is a little, it's almost as big as the, the largest one that we had before. And everyone's turned up. It just feels like we're back. So that's really good to see. And it's a slightly different style. I think there were was more sort of video production things happening. I think in this keynote, more storytelling. I'm not sure it really all stitched together very well. Right. Some of the stories like, how does that follow that? So there were a few things there and some of there were spelling mistakes on the slides, you know that ELT instead of ETL and they spelled ZFS wrong and something. So it just seemed like there was, I'm not quite sure just maybe a few things were sort of rushed at the last minute. >> Not really AWS like, was it? It's kind of remind the Patriots Paul, you know Bill Belichick's teams are fumbling all over the place. >> That's right. That's right. >> Part of it may be, I mean the sort of the market. They have a leader in marketing right now but they're going to have a CMO. So that's sort of maybe as lack of a single threaded leader for this thing. Everything's being shared around a bit more. So maybe, I mean, it's all fixable and it's mine. This is minor stuff. I'm just sort of looking at it and going there's a few things that looked like they were not quite as good as they could have been in the way it was put together. Right? >> But I mean, you're taking a, you know a year of not doing Reinvent. Yeah. Being isolated. You know, we've certainly seen it with theCUBE. It's like, okay, it's not like riding a bike. You know, things that, you know you got to kind of relearn the muscle memories. It's more like golf than is bicycle riding. >> Well I've done AWS keynotes myself. And they are pretty much scrambled. It looks nice, but there's a lot of scrambling leading up to when it actually goes. Right? And sometimes you can, you sometimes see a little kind of the edges of that, and sometimes it's much more polished. But you know, overall it's pretty good. I think Peter DeSantis keynote yesterday was a lot of really good meat there. There was some nice presentations, and some great announcements there. And today I was, I thought I was a little disappointed with some of the, I thought they could have been more. I think the way Andy Jesse did it, he crammed more announcements into his keynote, and Adam seems to be taking sort of a bit more of a measured approach. There were a few things he picked up on and then I'm expecting more to be spread throughout the rest of the day. >> This was more poetic. Right? He took the universe as the analogy for data, the ocean for security. Right? The Antarctic was sort of. >> Yeah. It looked pretty, >> yeah. >> But I'm not sure that was like, we're not here really to watch nature videos >> As analysts and journalists, You're like, come on. >> Yeah, >> Give it the meat >> That was kind the thing, yeah, >> It has always been the AWS has always been Reinvent has always been a shock at our approach. 100, 150 announcements. And they're really, that kind of pressure seems to be off them now. Their position at the top of the market seems to be unshakeable. There's no clear competition that's creeping up behind them. So how does that affect the messaging you think that AWS brings to market when it doesn't really have to prove that it's a leader anymore? It can go after maybe more of the niche markets or fix the stuff that's a little broken more fine tuning than grandiose statements. >> I think so AWS for a long time was so far out that they basically said, "We don't think about the competition, we are listen to the customers." And that was always the statement that works as long as you're always in the lead, right? Because you are introducing the new idea to the customer. Nobody else got there first. So that was the case. But in a few areas they aren't leading. Right? You could argue in machine learning, not necessarily leading in sustainability. They're not leading and they don't want to talk about some of these areas and-- >> Database. I mean arguably, >> They're pretty strong there, but the areas when you are behind, it's like they kind of know how to play offense. But when you're playing defense, it's a different set of game. You're playing a different game and it's hard to be good at both. I think and I'm not sure that they're really used to following somebody into a market and making a success of that. So there's something, it's a little harder. Do you see what I mean? >> I get opinion on this. So when I say database, David Foyer was two years ago, predicted AWS is going to have to converge somehow. They have no choice. And they sort of touched on that today, right? Eliminating ETL, that's one thing. But Aurora to Redshift. >> Yeah. >> You know, end to end. I'm not sure it's totally, they're fully end to end >> That's a really good, that is an excellent piece of work, because there's a lot of work that it eliminates. There's are clear pain points, but then you've got sort of the competing thing, is like the MongoDB and it's like, it's just a way with one database keeps it simple. >> Snowflake, >> Or you've got on Snowflake maybe you've got all these 20 different things you're trying to integrate at AWS, but it's kind of like you have a bag of Lego bricks. It's my favorite analogy, right? You want a toy for Christmas, you want a toy formula one racing car since that seems to be the theme, right? >> Okay. Do you want the fully built model that you can play with right now? Or do you want the Lego version that you have to spend three days building. Right? And AWS is the Lego technique thing. You have to spend some time building it, but once you've built it, you can evolve it, and you'll still be playing those are still good bricks years later. Whereas that prebuilt to probably broken gathering dust, right? So there's something about having an vulnerable architecture which is harder to get into, but more durable in the long term. And so AWS tends to play the long game in many ways. And that's one of the elements that they do that and that's good, but it makes it hard to consume for enterprise buyers that are used to getting it with a bow on top. And here's the solution. You know? >> And Paul, that was always Andy Chassy's answer to when we would ask him, you know, all these primitives you're going to make it simpler. You see the primitives give us the advantage to turn on a dime in the marketplace. And that's true. >> Yeah. So you're saying, you know, you take all these things together and you wrap it up, and you put a snowflake on top, and now you've got a simple thing or a Mongo or Mongo atlas or whatever. So you've got these layered platforms now which are making it simpler to consume, but now you're kind of, you know, you're all stuck in that ecosystem, you know, so it's like what layer of abstractions do you want to tie yourself to, right? >> The data bricks coming at it from more of an open source approach. But it's similar. >> We're seeing Amazon direct more into vertical markets. They spotlighted what Goldman Sachs is doing on their platform. They've got a variety of platforms that are supposedly targeted custom built for vertical markets. How do successful do you see that play being? Is this something that the customers you think are looking for, a fully integrated Amazon solution? >> I think so. There's usually if you look at, you know the MongoDB or data stacks, or the other sort of or elastic, you know, they've got the specific solution with the people that really are developing the core technology, there's open source equivalent version. The AWS is running, and it's usually maybe they've got a price advantage or it's, you know there's some data integration in there or it's somehow easier to integrate but it's not stopping those companies from growing. And what it's doing is it's endorsing that platform. So if you look at the collection of databases that have been around over the last few years, now you've got basically Elastic Mongo and Cassandra, you know the data stacks as being endorsed by the cloud vendors. These are winners. They're going to be around for a very long time. You can build yourself on that architecture. But what happened to Couch base and you know, a few of the other ones, you know, they don't really fit. Like how you going to bait? If you are now becoming an also ran, because you didn't get cloned by the cloud vendor. So the customers are going is that a safe place to be, right? >> But isn't it, don't they want to encourage those partners though in the name of building the marketplace ecosystem? >> Yeah. >> This is huge. >> But certainly the platform, yeah, the platform encourages people to do more. And there's always room around the edge. But the mainstream customers like that really like spending the good money, are looking for something that's got a long term life to it. Right? They're looking for a long commitment to that technology and that it's going to be invested in and grow. And the fact that the cloud providers are adopting and particularly AWS is adopting some of these technologies means that is a very long term commitment. You can base, you know, you can bet your future architecture on that for a decade probably. >> So they have to pick winners. >> Yeah. So it's sort of picking winners. And then if you're the open source company that's now got AWS turning up, you have to then leverage it and use that as a way to grow the market. And I think Mongo have done an excellent job of that. I mean, they're top level sponsors of Reinvent, and they're out there messaging that and doing a good job of showing people how to layer on top of AWS and make it a win-win both sides. >> So ever since we've been in the business, you hear the narrative hardware's going to die. It's just, you know, it's commodity and there's some truth to that. But hardware's actually driving good gross margins for the Cisco's of the world. Storage companies have always made good margins. Servers maybe not so much, 'cause Intel sucked all the margin out of it. But let's face it, AWS makes most of its money. We know on compute, it's got 25 plus percent operating margins depending on the seasonality there. What do you think happens long term to the infrastructure layer discussion? Okay, commodity cloud, you know, we talk about super cloud. Do you think that AWS, and the other cloud vendors that infrastructure, IS gets commoditized and they have to go up market or you see that continuing I mean history would say that still good margins in hardware. What are your thoughts on that? >> It's not commoditizing, it's becoming more specific. We've got all these accelerators and custom chips now, and this is something, this almost goes back. I mean, I was with some micro systems 20,30 years ago and we developed our own chips and HP developed their own chips and SGI mips, right? We were like, the architectures were all squabbling of who had the best processor chips and it took years to get chips that worked. Now if you make a chip and it doesn't work immediately, you screwed up somewhere right? It's become the technology of building these immensely complicated powerful chips that has become commoditized. So the cost of building a custom chip, is now getting to the point where Apple and Amazon, your Apple laptop has got full custom chips your phone, your iPhone, whatever and you're getting Google making custom chips and we've got Nvidia now getting into CPUs as well as GPUs. So we're seeing that the ability to build a custom chip, is becoming something that everyone is leveraging. And the cost of doing that is coming down to startups are doing it. So we're going to see many, many more, much more innovation I think, and this is like Intel and AMD are, you know they've got the compatibility legacy, but of the most powerful, most interesting new things I think are going to be custom. And we're seeing that with Graviton three particular in the three E that was announced last night with like 30, 40% whatever it was, more performance for HPC workloads. And that's, you know, the HPC market is going to have to deal with cloud. I mean they are starting to, and I was at Supercomputing a few weeks ago and they are tiptoeing around the edge of cloud, but those supercomputers are water cold. They are monsters. I mean you go around supercomputing, there are plumbing vendors on the booth. >> Of course. Yeah. >> Right? And they're highly concentrated systems, and that's really the only difference, is like, is it water cooler or echo? The rest of the technology stack is pretty much off the shelf stuff with a few tweets software. >> You point about, you know, the chips and what AWS is doing. The Annapurna acquisition. >> Yeah. >> They're on a dramatically different curve now. I think it comes down to, again, David Floyd's premise, really comes down to volume. The arm wafer volumes are 10 x those of X 86, volume always wins. And the economics of semis. >> That kind of got us there. But now there's also a risk five coming along if you, in terms of licensing is becoming one of the bottlenecks. Like if the cost of building a chip is really low, then it comes down to licensing costs and do you want to pay the arm license And the risk five is an open source chip set which some people are starting to use for things. So your dis controller may have a risk five in it, for example, nowadays, those kinds of things. So I think that's kind of the the dynamic that's playing out. There's a lot of innovation in hardware to come in the next few years. There's a thing called CXL compute express link which is going to be really interesting. I think that's probably two years out, before we start seeing it for real. But it lets you put glue together entire rack in a very flexible way. So just, and that's the entire industry coming together around a single standard, the whole industry except for Amazon, in fact just about. >> Well, but maybe I think eventually they'll get there. Don't use system on a chip CXL. >> I have no idea whether I have no knowledge about whether going to do anything CXL. >> Presuming I'm not trying to tap anything confidential. It just makes sense that they would do a system on chip. It makes sense that they would do something like CXL. Why not adopt the standard, if it's going to be as the cost. >> Yeah. And so that was one of the things out of zip computing. The other thing is the low latency networking with the elastic fabric adapter EFA and the extensions to that that were announced last night. They doubled the throughput. So you get twice the capacity on the nitro chip. And then the other thing was this, this is a bit technical, but this scalable datagram protocol that they've got which basically says, if I want to send a message, a packet from one machine to another machine, instead of sending it over one wire, I consider it over 16 wires in parallel. And I will just flood the network with all the packets and they can arrive in any order. This is why it isn't done normally. TCP is in order, the packets come in order they're supposed to, but this is fully flooding them around with its own fast retry and then they get reassembled at the other end. So they're not just using this now for HPC workloads. They've turned it on for TCP for just without any change to your application. If you are trying to move a large piece of data between two machines, and you're just pushing it down a network, a single connection, it takes it from five gigabits per second to 25 gigabits per second. A five x speed up, with a protocol tweak that's run by the Nitro, this is super interesting. >> Probably want to get all that AIML that stuff is going on. >> Well, the AIML stuff is leveraging it underneath, but this is for everybody. Like you're just copying data around, right? And you're limited, "Hey this is going to get there five times faster, pushing a big enough chunk of data around." So this is turning on gradually as the nitro five comes out, and you have to enable it at the instance level. But it's a super interesting announcement from last night. >> So the bottom line bumper sticker on commoditization is what? >> I don't think so. I mean what's the APIs? Your arm compatible, your Intel X 86 compatible or your maybe risk five one day compatible in the cloud. And those are the APIs, right? That's the commodity level. And the software is now, the software ecosystem is super portable across those as we're seeing with Apple moving from Intel to it's really not an issue, right? The software and the tooling is all there to do that. But underneath that, we're going to see an arms race between the top providers as they all try and develop faster chips for doing more specific things. We've got cranium for training, that instance has they announced it last year with 800 gigabits going out of a single instance, 800 gigabits or no, but this year they doubled it. Yeah. So 1.6 terabytes out of a single machine, right? That's insane, right? But what you're doing is you're putting together hundreds or thousands of those to solve the big machine learning training problems. These super, these enormous clusters that they're being formed for doing these massive problems. And there is a market now, for these incredibly large supercomputer clusters built for doing AI. That's all bandwidth limited. >> And you think about the timeframe from design to tape out. >> Yeah. >> Is just getting compressed It's relative. >> It is. >> Six is going the other way >> The tooling is all there. Yeah. >> Fantastic. Adrian, always a pleasure to have you on. Thanks so much. >> Yeah. >> Really appreciate it. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Thank you Paul. >> Cheers. All right. Keep it right there everybody. Don't forget, go to thecube.net, you'll see all these videos. Go to siliconangle.com, We've got features with Adam Selipsky, we got my breaking analysis, we have another feature with MongoDB's, Dev Ittycheria, Ali Ghodsi, as well Frank Sluman tomorrow. So check that out. Keep it right there. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech, right back. (soft techno upbeat music)

(electronic music) >> Hello everybody, welcome back to Boston. This is Dave Vellante and you're watching theCUBE's continuous coverage of AWS re:Inforce 2022. We're here at the convention center in Boston where theCUBE got started in May of 2010. I'm really excited. Lena Smart is here, she's the chief information security officer at MongoDB rocket ship company We covered MongoDB World earlier this year, June, down in New York. Lena, thanks for coming to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> You're very welcome, I enjoyed your keynote yesterday. You had a big audience, I mean, this is a big deal. >> Yeah. >> This is the cloud security conference, AWS, putting its mark in the sand back in 2019. Of course, a couple of years of virtual, now back in Boston. You talked in your keynote about security, how it used to be an afterthought, used to be the responsibility of a small group of people. >> Yeah. >> You know, it used to be a bolt on. >> Yep. >> That's changed dramatically and that change has really accelerated through the pandemic. >> Yep. >> Just describe that change from your perspective. >> So when I started at MongoDB about three and a half years ago, we had a very strong security program, but it wasn't under one person. So I was their first CISO that they employed. And I brought together people who were already doing security and we employed people from outside the company as well. The person that I employed as my deputy is actually a third time returnee, I guess? So he's worked for, MongoDB be twice before, his name is Chris Sandalo, and having someone of that stature in the company is really helpful to build the security culture that I wanted. That's why I really wanted Chris to come back. He's technically brilliant, but he also knew all the people who'd been there for a while and having that person as a trusted second in command really, really helped me grow the team very quickly. I've already got a reputation as a strong female leader. He had a reputation as a strong technical leader. So us combined is like indestructible, we we're a great team. >> Is your scope of responsibility, obviously you're protecting Mongo, >> Yeah. >> How much of your role extends into the product? >> So we have a product security team that report into Sahir Azam, our chief product officer. I think you even spoke to him. >> Yeah, he's amazing. >> He's awesome, isn't he? He's just fabulous. And so his team, they've got security experts on our product side who are really kind of the customer facing. I'm also to a certain extent customer facing, but the product folks are the absolute experts. They will listen to what our customers need, what they want, and together we can then work out and translate that. I'm also responsible for governance risk and compliance. So there's a large portion of our customers that give us input via that program too. So there's a lot of avenues to allow us to facilitate change in the security field. And I think that's really important. We have to listen to what our customers want, but also internally. You know, what our internal groups need as well to help them grow. >> I remember last year, Re:invent 2021, I was watching a talk on security. It was the, I forget his name, but it was the individual who responsible for data center security. And one of the things he said was, you know, look it's not at the end of the day, the technology's important but it's not the technology. It's how you apply the tools and the practices and the culture- >> Right. That you build in the organization that will ultimately determine how successful you are at decreasing the ROI for the bad guys. >> Yes. >> Let's put it that way. So talk about the challenges of building that culture, how you go about that, and how you sustain that cultural aspect. >> So, I think having the security champion program, so that's just, it's like one of my babies, that and helping underrepresented groups in MongoDB kind of get on in the tech world are both really important to me. And so the security champion program is purely voluntary. We have over a hundred members. And these are people, there's no bar to join. You don't have to be technical. If you're an executive assistant who wants to learn more about security, like my assistant does, you're more than welcome. Up to, we actually people grade themselves, when they join us, we give them a little tick box. Like five is, I walk in security water. One is, I can spell security but I'd like to learn more. Mixing those groups together has been game changing for us. We now have over a hundred people who volunteer their time, with their supervisors permission, they help us with their phishing campaigns, testing AWS tool sets, testing things like queryable encryption. I mean, we have people who have such an in-depth knowledge in other areas of the business that I could never learn, no matter how much time I had. And so to have them- And we have people from product as security champions as well, and security, and legal, and HR, and every department is recognized. And I think almost every geographical location is also recognized. So just to have that scope and depth of people with long tenure in the company, technically brilliant, really want to understand how they can apply the cultural values that we live with each day to make our security program stronger. As I say, that's been a game changer for us. We use it as a feeder program. So we've had five people transfer from other departments into the security and GRC teams through this Champions program. >> Makes a lot of sense. You take somebody who walks on water in security, mix them with somebody who really doesn't know a lot about it but wants to learn and then can ask really basic questions, and then the experts can actually understand better how to communicate. >> Absolutely. >> To that you know that 101 level. >> It's absolutely true. Like my mom lives in her iPad. She worships her iPad. Unfortunately she thinks everything on it is true. And so for me to try and dumb it down, and she's not a dumb person, but for me to try and dumb down the message of most of it's rubbish, mom, Facebook is made up. It's just people telling stories. For me to try and get that over to- So she's a one, and I might be a five, that's hard. That's really hard. And so that's what we're doing in the office as well. It's like, if you can explain to my mother how not everything on the internet is true, we're golden. >> My mom, rest her soul, when she first got a- we got her a Macintosh, this was years and years and years ago, and we were trying to train her over the phone, and said, mom, just grab the mouse. And she's like, I don't like mice. (Lena laughs) There you go. I know, I know, Lena, what that's like. Years ago, it was early last decade, we started to think about, wow, security really has to become a board level item. >> Yeah. >> And it really wasn't- 2010, you know, for certain companies. But really, and so I had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Robert Gates, who was the defense secretary. >> Yes. >> We had this conversation, and he sits on a number, or sat on a number of boards, probably still does, but he was adamant. Oh, absolutely. Here's how you know, here. This is the criticality. Now it's totally changed. >> Right. >> I mean, it's now a board level item. But how do you communicate to the C-Suite, the board? How often do you do that? What do you recommend is the right regime? And I know there's not any perfect- there's got to be situational, but how do you approach it? >> So I am extremely lucky. We have a very technical board. Our chairman of the board is Tom Killalea. You know, Amazon alum, I mean, just genius. And he, and the rest of the board, it's not like a normal board. Like I actually have the meeting on this coming Monday. So this weekend will be me reading as much stuff as I possibly can, trying to work out what questions they're going to ask me. And it's never a gotcha kind of thing. I've been at board meetings before where you almost feel personally attacked and that's not a good thing. Where, at MongoDB, you can see they genuinely want us to grow and mature. And so I actually meet with our board four times a year, just for security. So we set up our own security meeting just with board members who are specifically interested in security, which is all of them. And so this is actually off cadence. So I actually get their attention for at least an hour once a quarter, which is almost unheard of. And we actually use the AWS memo format. People have a chance to comment and read prior to the meeting. So they know what we're going to talk about and we know what their concerns are. And so you're not going in like, oh my gosh, what what's going to happen for this hour? We come prepared. We have statistics. We can show them where we're growing. We can show them where we need more growth and maturity. And I think having that level of just development of programs, but also the ear of the board has has helped me mature my role 10 times. And then also we have the chance to ask them, well what are your other CISOs doing? You know, they're members of other boards. So I can say to Dave, for example, you know, what's so-and-so doing at Datadog? Or Tom Killelea, what's the CISO of Capital One doing? And they help me make a lot of those connections as well. I mean, the CISO world is small and me being a female in the world with a Scottish accent, I'm probably more memorable than most. So it's like, oh yeah, that's the Irish girl. Yeah. She's Scottish, thank you. But they remember me and I can use that. And so just having all those mentors from the board level down, and obviously Dev is a huge, huge fan of security and GRC. It's no longer that box ticking exercise that I used to feel security was, you know, if you heated your SOC2 type two in FinTech, oh, you were good to go. You know, if you did a HERC set for the power industry. All right, right. You know, we can move on now. It's not that anymore. >> Right. It's every single day. >> Yeah. Of course. Dev is Dev at the Chario. Dev spelled D E V. I spell Dave differently. My Dave. But, Lena, it sounds like you present a combination of metrics, so, the board, you feel like that's appropriate to dig into the metrics. But also I'm presuming you're talking strategy, potentially, you know, gaps- >> Road roadmaps, the whole nine yards. Yep. >> What's the, you know, I look at the budget scenario. At the macro level, CIOs have told us, they came into the year saying, hey we're going to grow spending at the macro, around eight percent, eight and a half percent. That's dialed down a little bit post Ukraine and the whole recession and Fed tightening. So now they're down maybe around six percent. So not dramatically lower, but still. And they tell us security is still the number one priority. >> Yes. >> That's been the case for many, many quarters, and actually years, but you don't have an unlimited budget. >> Sure >> Right. It's not like, oh, here is an open checkbook. >> Right. >> Lena, so, how does Mongo balance that with the other priorities in the organization, obviously, you know, you got to spend money on product, you got to spend money and go to market. What's the climate like now, is it, you know continuing on in 2022 despite some of the macro concerns? Is it maybe tapping the brakes? What's the general sentiment? >> We would never tap the breaks. I mean, this is something that's- So my other half works in the finance industry still. So we have, you know, interesting discussions when it comes to geopolitics and financial politics and you know, Dev, the chairman of the board, all very technical people, get that security is going to be taken advantage of if we're seeing to be tapping the brakes. So it does kind of worry me when I hear other people are saying, oh, we're, you know, we're cutting back our budget. We are not. That being said, you also have to be fiscally responsible. I'm Scottish, we're cheap, really frugal with money. And so I always tell my team: treat this money as if it's your own. As if it's my money. And so when we're buying tool sets, I want to make sure that I'm talking to the CISO, or the CISO of the company that's supplying it, and saying are you giving me the really the best value? You know, how can we maybe even partner with you as a database platform? How could we partner with you, X company, to, you know, maybe we'll give you credits on our platform. If you look to moving to us and then we could have a partnership, and I mean, that's how some of this stuff builds, and so I've been pretty good at doing that. I enjoy doing that. But then also just in terms of being fiscally responsible, yeah, I get it. There's CISOs who have every tool that's out there because it's shiny and it's new and they know the board is never going to say no, but at some point, people will get wise to that and be like, I think we need a new CISO. So it's not like we're going to stop spending it. So we're going to get someone who actually knows how to budget and get us what the best value for money. And so that's always been my view is we're always going to be financed. We're always going to be financed well. But I need to keep showing that value for money. And we do that every board meeting, every Monday when I meet with my boss. I mean, I report to the CFO but I've got a dotted line to the CTO. So I'm, you know, I'm one of the few people at this level that's got my feet in both camps. You know budgets are talked at Dev's level. So, you know, it's really important that we get the spend right. >> And that value is essentially, as I was kind of alluding to before, it's decreasing the value equation for the hackers, for the adversary. >> Hopefully, yes. >> Right? Who's the- of course they're increasingly sophisticated. I want to ask you about your relationship with AWS in this context. It feels like, when I look around here, I think back to 2019, there was a lot of talk about the shared responsibility model. >> Yes. >> You know, AWS likes to educate people and back then it was like, okay, hey, by the way, you know you got to, you know, configure the S3 bucket properly. And then, oh, by the way, there's more than just, it's not just binary. >> Right, right. >> There's other factors involved. The application access and identity and things like that, et cetera, et cetera. So that was all kind of cool. But I feel like the cloud is becoming the first line of defense for the CISO but because of the shared responsibility model, CISO is now the second line of defense >> Yes. Does that change your role? Does it make it less complicated in a way? Maybe, you know, more complicated because you now got to get your DevSecOps team? The developers are now much more involved in security? How is that shifting, specifically in the context of your relationship with AWS? >> It's honestly not been that much of a shift. I mean, these guys are very proactive when it comes to where we are from the security standpoint. They listen to their customers as much as we do. So when we sit down with them, when I meet with Steve Schmidt or CJ or you know, our account manager, its not a conversation that's a surprise to me when I tell them this is what we need. They're like, yep, we're on that already. And so I think that relationship has been very proactive rather than reactive. And then in terms of MongoDB, as a tech company, security is always at the forefront. So it's not been a huge lift for me. It's really just been my time that I've taken to understand where DevSecOps is coming from. And you know, how far are we shifting left? Are we actually shifting right now? It's like, you know, get the balance, right? You can't be too much to one side. But I think in terms of where we're teaching the developers, you know, we are a company by developers for developers. So, we get it, we understand where they're coming from, and we try and be as proactive as AWS is. >> When you obviously the SolarWinds hack was a a major mile- I think in security, there's always something in the headlines- >> Yes. But when you think of things like, you know, Stuxnet, you know, Log4J, obviously Solarwinds and the whole supply chain infiltration and the bill of materials. As I said before, the adversary is extremely capable and sophisticated and you know, much more automated. It's always been automated attacks, but you know island hopping and infiltrating and self-forming malware and really sophisticated techniques. >> Yep. >> How are you thinking about that supply chain, bill of materials from inside Mongo and ultimately externally to your customers? >> So you've picked on my third favorite topic to talk about. So I came from the power industry before, so I've got a lot of experience with critical infrastructure. And that was really, I think, where a lot of the supply chain management rules and regulations came from. If you're building a turbine and the steel's coming from China, we would send people to China to make sure that the steel we were buying was the steel we were using. And so that became the H bomb. The hardware bill of materials, bad name. But, you know, we remember what it stood for. And then fast forward: President Biden's executive order. SBOs front and center, cloud first front and center. It's like, this is perfect. And so I was actually- I actually moderated a panel earlier this year at Homeland Security Week in DC, where we had a sneak CISA, So Dr. Allen Friedman from CISA, and also Patrick Weir from OWASP for the framework, CISA for the framework as well, and just the general guidance, and Snake for the front end. That was where my head was going. And MongoDB is the back-end database. And what we've done is we've taken our work with Snake and we now have a proof of concept for SBOs. And so I'm now trying to kind of package that, if you like, as a program and get the word out that SBOs shouldn't be something to be afraid of. If you want to do business with the government you're going to have to create one. We are offering a secure repository to store that data, the government could have access to that repository and see that data. So there's one source of truth. And so I think SBOs is going to be really interesting. I know that, you know, some of my peers are like, oh, it's just another box to tick. And I think it's more than that. I definitely- I've just, there's something percolating in the back of my mind that this is going to be big and we're going to be able to use it to hopefully not stop things like another Log4j, there's always going to be another Log4j, we know that. we don't know everything, the unknown unknown, but at least if we're prepared to go find stuff quicker than we were then before Log4j, I think having SBOs on hand, having that one source of truth, that one repository, I think is going to make it so much easier to find those things. >> Last question, what's the CISO's number one challenge? Either yours or the CISO, generally. >> Keeping up with the fire hose that is security. Like, what do you pick tomorrow? And if you pick the wrong thing, what's the impact? So that's why I'm always networking and talking to my peers. And, you know, we're sometimes like meerkats, you know. there's meerkats, you see like this, it's like, what do we talk about? But there's always something to talk about. And you just have to learn and keep learning. >> Last question, part B. As a hot technology company, that's, you know, rising star, you know not withstanding the tech lash and the stock market- >> Yeah. >> But Mongo's growing, you know, wonderfully. Do you find it easier to attract talent? Like many CISOs will say, you know, lack of talent is my biggest, biggest challenge. Do you find that that's not the challenge for you? >> Not at all. I think on two fronts, one, we have the champions program. So we've got a whole internal ecosystem who love working there. So the minute one of my jobs goes on the board, they get first dibs at it. So they'd already phoning their friends. So we've got, you know, there's ripple effects out from over a hundred people internally. You know, I think just having that, that's been a game changer. >> I was so looking forward to interviewing you, Lena, thanks so much for coming. >> Thank you, this was a pleasure. >> It was really great to have you. >> Thank you so much. Thank you. >> You're really welcome. All right, keep it right there. This is Dave Villante for theCUBE. We'll be right back at AWS Re:inforce22 right after this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Good morning. Welcome back to theCUBE's continuing coverage of Snowflake Summit 22, live from Las Vegas. Lisa Martin, here with Dave Villante. We are at Caesar's Forum, having lots of great conversations. As I mentioned, this is just the start of day two, a tremendous amount of content yesterday. I'm coming at you today. Two guests join us from Slalom, now, we've got Chris Samuels, Principal Machine Learning, and Bethany Mudd, Senior Director, Experience Design. Welcome to theCube, guys. >> Hi, thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> So, Slalom and Snowflake, over 200 joint customers, over 1,800 plus engagements, lots of synergies there, partnership. We're here today to talk about intelligent products. Talk to us about what- how do you define intelligent products, and then kind of break that down? >> Yeah, I can, I can start with the simple version, right? So, when we think about intelligent products, what they're doing, is they're doing more than they were explicitly programmed to do. So, instead of having a developer write all of these rules and have, "If this, then that," right, we're using data, and real time insights to make products that are more performing and improving over time. >> Chris: Yeah, it's really bringing together an ecosystem of a series of things to have integrated capabilities working together that themselves offer constant improvement, better understanding, better flexibility, and better usability, for everyone involved. >> Lisa: And there are four pillars of intelligent products that let's walk through those: technology, intelligence, experiences, and operations. >> Sure. So for technology, like most modern data architectures, it has sort of a data component and it has a modern cloud platform, but here, the key is is sort of things being disconnected, things being self contained, and decoupled, such that there's better integration time, better iteration time, more cross use, and more extensibility and scalability with the cloud native portion of that. >> And the intelligence piece? >> The intelligence piece is the data that's been processed by machine learning algorithms, or by predictive analytics that provides sort of the most valuable, or more- most insightful inferences, or conclusions. So, by bringing together again, the tech and the intelligence, that's, you know, sort of the, two of the pillars that begin to move forward that enable sort of the other two pillars, which are- >> Experiences and operations. >> Yeah. >> Perfect. >> And if we think about those, all of the technology, all of the intelligence in the world, doesn't mean anything if it doesn't actually work for people. Without use, there is no value. So, as we're designing these products, we want to make sure that they're supporting people. As we're automating, there are still people accountable for those tasks. There are still impacts to people in the real world. So, we want to make sure that we're doing that intentionally. So, we're building the greater good. >> Yeah. And from the operations perspective, it's you can think of traditional DevOps becoming MLOps, where there's an overall platform and a framework in place to manage not only the software components of it, but the overall workflow, and the data flow, and the model life cycle such that we have tools and people from different backgrounds and different teams developing and maintaining this than you would previously see with something like product engineering. >> Dave: Can you guys walk us through an example of how you work with a customer? I'm envisioning, you know, meeting with a lot of yellow stickies, and prioritization, and I don't know if that's how it works, but take us through like the start and the sequence. >> You have my heart, I am a workshop lover. Anytime you have the scratch off, like, lottery stickers on something, you know it's a good one. But, as we think about our approach, we typically start with either a discovery or mobilized phase. We're really, we're starting by gathering context, and really understanding the business, the client, the users, and that full path the value. Who are all the teams that are going to have to come together and start working together to deliver this intelligent product? And once we've got that context, we can start solutioning and ideating on that. But, really it comes down to making sure that we've earned the right, and we've got the smarts to move into the space intelligently. >> Yeah, and, truly, it's the intelligent product itself is sort of tied to the use case. The business knows what the most- what is potentially the most valuable here. And so, so by communicating and working and co-creating with the business, we can define then, okay, here are the use cases and here are where machine learning and the overall intelligent product can maybe add more disruptive value than others. By saying, let's pretend that, you know, maybe your ML model or your predictive analytics is like a dial that we could turn up to 11. Which one of those dials turning turned up to 11 could add the most value or disruption to your business? And therefore, you know, how can we prioritize and then work toward that pie-in-the-sky goal. >> Okay. So the client comes and says, "This is the outcome we want." Okay, and then you help them. You gather the right people, sort of extract all the little, you know, pieces of knowledge, and then help them prioritize so they can focus. And then what? >> Yeah. So, from there we're going to take the approach that seeing is solving. We want to make sure that we get the right voices in the room, and we've got the right alignment. So, we're going to map out everything. We're going to diagram what that experience is going to look like, how technology's going to play into it, all of the roles and actors involved. We're going to draw a map of the ecosystem that everyone can understand, whether you're in marketing, or the IT sort of area, once again, so we can get crisp on that outcome and how we're going to deliver it. And, from there, we start building out that roadmap and backlog, and we deliver iteratively. So, by not thinking of things as getting to the final product after a three year push, we really want to shrink those build, measure, and learn loops. So, we're getting all of that feedback and we're listening and evolving and growing the same way that our products are. >> Yeah. Something like an intelligent product is is pretty heady. So it's a pretty heavy concept to talk about. And so, the question becomes, "What is the outcome that ultimately needs to be achieved?" And then, who, from where in the business across the different potentially business product lines or business departments needs to be brought together? What data needs to be brought together? Such that the people can understand how they themselves can shape. The stakeholders can, how the product itself can be shaped. And therefore, what is the ultimate outcome, collectively, for everybody involved? 'Cause while your data might be fueling, you know, finances or someone else's intelligence and that kind of thing, bringing it all together allows for a more seamless product that might benefit more of the overall structure of the organization. >> Can you talk a little bit about how Slalom and Snowflake are enabling, like a customer example? A customer to take that data, flex that muscle, and create intelligent products that delight and surprise their customers? >> Chris: Yeah, so here's a great story. We worked to co-create with Kawasaki Heavy Industries. So, we created an intelligent product with them to enable safer rail travel, more preventative, more efficient, preventative maintenance, and a more efficient and real time track status feedback to the rail operators. So, in this case, we brought, yeah, the intelligent product itself was, "Okay, how do you create a better rail monitoring service?" And while that itself was the primary driver of the data, multiple other parts of the organization are using sort of the intelligent product as part of their now daily routine, whether it's from the preventative maintenance perspective, or it's from route usage, route prediction. Or, indeed, helping KHI move forward into making trains a more software centered set of products in the future. >> So, taking that example, I would imagine when you running- like I'm going to call that a project. I hope that's okay. So, when I'm running a project, that I would imagine that sometimes you run into, "Oh, wow. Okay." To really be successful at this, the company- project versus whole house. The company doesn't have the right data architecture, the right skills or the right, you know, data team. Now, is it as simple as, oh yeah, just put it all into Snowflake? I doubt it. So how do you, do you encounter that often? How do you deal with that? >> Bethany: It's a journey. So, I think it's really about making sure we're meeting clients where they are. And I think that's something that we actually do pretty well. So, as we think about delivery co-creation, and co-delivering is a huge part of our model. So, we want to make sure that we have the client teams, with us. So, as we start thinking about intelligent products, it can be incorporating a small feature, with subscription based services. It doesn't have to be creating your own model and sort of going deep. It really does come down to like what value do you want to get out of this? Right? >> Yeah. It is important that it is a journey, right? So, it doesn't have to be okay, there's a big bang applied to you and your company's tech industry or tech ecosystem. You can just start by saying, "Okay, how will I bring my data together at a data lake? How do I see across my different pillars of excellence in my own business?" And then, "How do I manage, potentially, this in an overall MLOps platform such that it can be sustainable and gather more insights and improve itself with time, and therefore be more impactful to the ultimate users of the tool?" 'Cause again, as Bethany said that without use, these things are just tools on the shelf somewhere that have little value. >> So, it's a journey, as you both said, completely agree with that. It's a journey that's getting faster and faster. Because, I mean, we've seen so much acceleration in the last couple of the years, the consumer demands have massively changed. >> Bethany: Absolutely. >> In every industry, how do Slalom and Snowflake come together to help businesses define the journey, but also accelerate it, so that they can stay ahead or get ahead of the competition? >> Yeah. So, one thing I think is interesting about the technology field right now is I feel like we're at the point where it's not the technology or the tools that's limiting us or, you know, constraining what we can build, it's our imaginations. Right? And, when I think about intelligent products and all of the things that are capable, that you can achieve with AI and ML, that's not widely known. There's so much tech jargon. And, we put all of those statistical words on it, and you know the things you don't know. And, instead, really, what we're doing is we're providing different ways to learn and grow. So, I think if we can demystify and humanize some of that language, I really would love to see all of these companies better understand the crayons and the tools in their toolbox. >> Speaking from a creative perspective, I love it. >> No, And I'll do the tech nerd bit. So, there is- you're right. There is a portion where you need to bring data together, and tech together, and that kind of thing. So, something like Snowflake is a great enabler for how to actually bring the data of multiple parts of an organization together into, you know, a data warehouse, or a data lake, and then be able to manage that sort of in an MLOps platform, particularly with some of the press that Snowflake has put out this week. Things becoming more Python-native, allowing for more ML experimentation, and some more native insights on the platform, rather than going off Snowflake platform to do some of that kind of thing. Makes Snowflake an incredibly valuable portion of the data management and of the tech and of the engineering of the overall product. >> So, I agree, Bethany, lack of imagination sometimes is the barrier we get so down into the weeds, but there's also lack of skills, as mentioned the organizational, you know, structural issues, politics, you know, whatever it is, you know, specific agendas, how do you guys help with that? Can, will you bring in, you know, resources to help and fill gaps? >> Yeah, so we will bring in a cross-disciplinary team of experts. So, you will see an experienced designer, as well as your ML architects, as well as other technical architects, and what we call solution owners, because we want to make sure that we've got a lot of perspectives, so we can see that problem from a lot of different angles. The other thing that we're bringing in is a repeatable process, a repeatable engineering methodology, which, when you zoom out, and you look at it, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. But, what we're doing, is we're training against it. We're building tools, we're building templates, we're re-imagining what our deliverables look like for intelligent products, just so, we're not only speeding up the development and getting to those outcomes faster, but we're also continuing to grow and we can gift those things to our clients, and help support them as well. >> And not only that, what we do at Slalom is we want to think about transition from the beginning. And so, by having all the stakeholders in the room from the earliest point, both the business stakeholders, the technical stakeholders, if they have data scientists, if they have engineers, who's going to be taking this and maintaining this intelligent product long after we're gone, because again, we will transition, and someone else will be taking over the maintenance of this team. One, they will understand, you know, early from beginning the path that it is on, and be more capable of maintaining this, and two, understand sort of the ethical concerns behind, okay, here's how parts of your system affect this other parts of the system. And, you know, sometimes ML gets some bad press because it's misapplied, or there are concerns, or models or data are used outside of context. And there's some, you know, there are potentially some ill effects to be had. By bringing those people together much earlier, it allows for the business to truly understand and the stakeholders to ask the questions that they- that need to be continually asked to evaluate, is this the right thing to do? How do I, how does my part affect the whole? And, how do I have an overall impact that is in a positive way and is something, you know, truly being done most effectively. >> So, that's that knowledge transfer. I hesitate to even say that because it makes it sound so black and white, because you're co-creating here. But, essentially, you're, you know, to use the the cliche, you're teaching them how to fish. Not, you know, going to ongoing, you know, do the fishing for them, so. >> Lisa: That thought diversity is so critical, as is the internal alignment. Last question for you guys, before we wrap here, where can customers go to get started? Do they engage Slalom, Snowflake? Can they do both? >> Chris: You definitely can. We can come through. I mean, we're fortunate that snowflake has blessed us with the title of partner of the year again for the fifth time. >> Lisa: Congratulations. >> Thank you, thank you. We are incredibly humbled in that. So, we would do a lot of work with Snowflake. You could certainly come to Slalom, any one of our local markets, or build or emerge. We'll definitely work together. We'll figure out what the right team is. We'll have lots and lots of conversations, because it is most important for you as a set of business stakeholders to define what is right for you and what you need. >> Yeah. Good stuff, you guys, thank you so much for joining Dave and me, talking about intelligent products, what they are, how you co-design them, and the impact that data can make with customers if they really bring the right minds together and get creative. We appreciate your insights and your thoughts. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us guys. Yeah. >> All right. For Dave Villante, I am Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's coverage, day two, Snowflake Summit 22, from Las Vegas. We'll be right back with our next guest. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome everybody to VeeamON 2021 you're watching theCUBE. My name is Dave Villante. You know in 2020 cyber adversaries they seize the opportunity to really up their game and target workers from home and digital supply chains. It's become increasingly clear to observers that we're entering a new era of cyber threats where infiltrating companies via so-called Island Hopping and stealthily living off the land meaning they're using your own tools and infrastructure to steal your data. So they're not signaling with new tools that they're in there. It's becoming the norm for sophisticated hacks. Moreover, these well-funded and really sophisticated criminals and nation States are aggressively retaliating against incident responses. In other words, when you go to fix the problem they're not leaving the premises they're rather they're tightening the vice on victims by holding your data ransom and threatening to release previously ex filtrated and brand damaging information to the public. What a climate in which we live today. And with me to talk about these concerning trends and what you can do about it as Gil Vega, the CISO of Veeam Gil great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Great to see you, Dave. Thanks for having me. >> Yeah. So, you know, you're hearing my intro. It's probably understating the threat. You are a Veeam's first CISO. So how do you see the landscape right now? >> That's right. Yeah. And I've been with the company for just over a year now, but my background is in financial services and spent a lot of time managing cybersecurity programs at the classified level in Washington DC. So I've gleaned a lot of scar tissue from lots of sophisticated attacks and responses. But today I think what we're seeing is really a one-upmanship by a sophisticated potentially nation state sponsored adversaries, this idea of imprisoning your data and charging you to release it is it's quite frightening. And as we've seen in the news recently it can have devastating impacts not only for the economy, but for businesses. Look at the gas lines in the Northeast right now because of the quality of a pipeline, a ransomware attack. I just, the government just released an executive order this morning, that hopes to address some of the some of the nation's unpreparedness for these sophisticated attacks. And I think it's time. And I think everyone's excited about the opportunity to really apply a whole of government approach, to helping critical infrastructure to helping and partnering with private sector and imposing some risks, frankly, on some of the folks that are engaged in attacking our country. >> A number of years ago, I often tell this story. I had the pleasure of interviewing Robert Gates the former Defense Secretary. And it was a while ago we were talking about cyber and he sits on a number of boards. And we were talking about how it's a board level issue. And, and we're talking about cyber crime and the like and nation States. And I said, well, wait, cyber warfare, even. And I said, "But don't we have the best cyber tech. I mean, can't we go on the offense?" And he goes, "Yeah, we do. And we can, but we have more to lose." And to your point about critical infrastructure, it's not just like, okay, we have the most powerful weapons. It's really we have the most valuable infrastructure and a lot to lose. So it's really a tricky game. And this notion of having to be stealthy in your incident response is relatively new. Isn't it? >> It is. It is. And you know, there are, you mentioned that and I was surprised you mentioned because a lot of people really don't talk about it as you're going into your response your adversaries are watching or watching your every move. You have to assume in these days of perpetual state of compromise in your environments, which means that your adversaries have access to your environment to the point that they're watching your incident responders communicate with one another and they're countering your moves. So it's sort of a perverse spin on the old mutually assured destruction paradigm that you mentioned the United States has the world's largest economy. And quite frankly the world's most vulnerable, critical infrastructure. And I would concur with Director Gates or Secretary Gates rather it is assessment that we've got to be awfully careful and measured in our approach to imposing risks. I think the government has worked for many years on defining red lines. And I think this latest attack on the colonial pipeline affecting the economy and people's lives and potentially putting people's lives at risk is towing also the close to that red line. And I'm interested to see where this goes. I'm interested to see if this triggers even a, you know a new phase of cyber warfare, retaliation, you know proactive defense by the National Security Community of the United States government. Be interesting to see how this plays out. >> Yeah, you're absolutely right though. You've got this sort of asymmetric dynamic now which is unique for the United States as soon as strongest defense in the world. And I wanted to get it to ransomware a bit. And specifically this notion of ransomware as a service it's really concerning where criminals can actually outsource the hack as a service and the bad guys will set up, you know, on the dark web they'll have, you know, help desks and phone lines. They'll do the negotiations. I mean, this is a really concerning trend. And obviously Veeam plays a role here. I'm wondering as a, as a SecOps pro what should we be doing about this? >> Yeah, you mentioned ransomware as a service, whereas RWS it's an incredibly pernicious problem perpetrated by sophisticated folks who may or may not have nation state support or alliances. I think at a minimum certain governments are looking the other way as it relates to these criminal activities. But with ransomware as a service, you're essentially having very sophisticated folks create very complex ransomware code and distributed to people who are willing to pay for it. And oftentimes take a part of the ransom as their payment. The, issue with obviously ransomware is you know the age old question, are you going to pay a ransom or are you not going to pay a ransom? The FBI says, don't do it. It only encourages additional attacks. The Treasury Department put out some guidance earlier earlier in the year, advising companies that they could be subject to civil or criminal penalties. If they pay a ransom and the ransom goes to a sanction density. So there's danger on all sides. >> Wow okay. But so, and then the other thing is this infiltrating via digital supply chains I call it Island Hopping and the like, we saw that with the solar winds hack and the scary part is, you know different malware is coming in and self forming and creating different signatures. Not only is it very difficult to detect, but remediating, you know, one, you know combined self formed malware it doesn't necessarily take care of the others. And so, you know, you've got this sort of organic virus, like thing, you know, create mutating and that's something that's certainly relatively new to me in terms of its prevalence your thoughts on that and how to do it. >> Yeah, exactly right. You know, the advent of the polymorphic code that changes the implementation of advanced artificial intelligence and some of this malware is making our job increasingly difficult which is why I believe firmly. You've got to focus on the fundamentals and I think the best answers for protecting against sophisticated polymorphic code is,are found in the NIST cybersecurity framework. And I encourage everyone to really take a close look at implementing that cybersecurity framework across their environments, much like we've done here, here at Veeam implementing technologies around Zero Trust again assuming a perpetual state of compromise and not trusting any transaction in your environment is the key to combating this kind of attack. >> Well, and you know, as you mentioned, Zero Trust Zero Trust used to be a buzzword. Now it's like become a mandate. And you know, it's funny. I mean, in a way I feel like the crypto guys I know there's a lot of fraud in crypto, but but anybody who's ever traded crypto it's like getting into Fort Knox. I mean, you got to know your customer and you've got to do a little transaction. I mean, it's really quite sophisticated in terms of the how they are applying cybersecurity and you know, most even your bank isn't that intense. And so those kinds of practices, even though they're a bit of a pain in the neck, I mean it's worth the extra effort. I wonder if you could talk about some of the best practices that you're seeing how you're advising your clients in your ecosystem and the role that Veeam can play in helping here. >> Yeah, absolutely. As I mentioned so many recommendations and I think the thing to remember here so we don't overwhelm our small and medium sized businesses that have limited resources in this area is to remind them that it's a journey, right? It's not a destination that they can continually improve and focus on the fundamentals. As I mentioned, things like multi-factor authentication you know, a higher level topic might be micro-segmentation breaking up your environment into manageable components that you can monitor a real time. Real time monitoring is one of the key components to implementing Zero Trust architecture and knowing exactly what good looks like in your environment in a situation where you've got real-time monitoring you can detect the anomalies, the things that shouldn't be happening in your environment and to spin up your response teams, to focus and better understand what that is. I've always been a proponent of identity and access management controls and a key focus. We've heard it in this industry for 25 years is enforcing the concept of least privilege, making sure that your privileged users have access to the things they need and only the things that they need. And then of course, data immutability making sure that your data is stored in backups that verifiably has not been changed. And I think this is where Veeam comes into the equation where our products provide a lot of these very easily configured ransomware protections around data and your ability to the ability to instantly back up things like Office 365 emails, you know support for AWS and Azure. Your data can be quickly restored in the event that an attacker is able to in prison that with encryption and ransom demands. >> Well, and so you've certainly seen in the CISOs that I've talked to that they've had to obviously shift their priorities, thanks to the force march to digital, thanks to COVID, but Identity access management, end point security cloud security kind of overnight, you know, Zero Trust. We talked about that and you could see that in some of these, you know, high flying security stocks, Okta Zscaler, CrowdStrike, they exploded. And so what's in these many of these changes seem to be permanent sort of you're I guess, deeper down in the stack if you will, but you, you compliment these toolings with obviously the data protection approach the ransomware, the cloud data protection, air gaps, immutability. Maybe you could talk about how you fit in with the broader, you know, spate of tools. I mean, your, my eyes bleed when you look at all the security companies that are out there. >> Yeah for sure. You know, I'm just going to take it right back to the NIST cybersecurity framework and the five domains that you really need to focus on. Identify, protect, detect, respond, and recover, you know and until recently security practitioners and companies have really focused on on the protect, identify and protect, right and defend rather where they're focused on building, you know, moats and castles and making sure that they've got this, you know hard exterior to defend against attacks. I think there's been a shift over the past couple of years where companies have recognized that the focus needs to be on and respond and recover activities, right? Assuming that people are going to breach or near breach, your entities is a safe way to think about this and building up capabilities to detect those breaches and respond effectively to those breaches are what's key in implementing a successful cybersecurity program where Veeam fits into this since with our suite of products that that can help you through the recovery process, right? That last domain of the NIST cybersecurity framework it'll allow you to instantaneously. As I mentioned before, restore data in the event of a catastrophic breach. And I think it provides companies with the assurances that while they're protecting and building those Zero Trust components into their environments to protect against these pernicious and well-resourced adversaries there's the opportunity for them to recover very quickly using the VM suite of tools? >> Well, I see, I think there's an interesting dynamic here. You're pointing out Gil. There's not no longer is it that, you know, build a moat the Queen's leaving her castle. I always say, you know there is no hardened perimeter anymore. And so you've seen, you know, the shift obviously from hardware based firewalls and you I mentioned those other companies that are doing great but to me, it's all about these layers and response is a big in recovery is a huge part of that. So I'm seeing increasingly companies like Veeam is a critical part of that, that security cyber data protection, you know, ecosystem. I mean, to me it's just as important as the frontline pieces of even identity. And so you see those markets exploding. I think it's, there's a latent value that's building in companies like Veeam that are a key part of those that data protection layer you think about you know, defense strategies. It's not just you, the frontline it's maybe it's airstrikes, maybe it's, you know, C etcetera. And I see that this market is actually a huge opportunity for for organizations like yours. >> I think you're right. And I think the proof is in, you know in the pudding, in terms of how this company has grown and what we've delivered in version 11 of our suite, including, you know features like continuous data protection, we talked about that reliable ransomware protection support for AWS S3 Glacier and Azure archive the expanded incident recovery, and then support for disaster recovery and backup as a service. You know, what I found most interesting in my year here at Veeam is just how much our administrators the administrators in our company and our customers companies that are managing backups absolutely love our products that ease of use the instant backup capabilities and the support they receive from Veeam. It's almost cultish in terms of how our customers are using these products to defend themselves in today's pretty intense cyber threat environment. >> Well, and you talked about the NIST framework, and again big part of that is recovery, because we talked about earlier about, do you pay the ransom or not? Well, to the extent that I can actually recover from having all my data encrypted then I've got obviously a lot more leverage and in many ways, I mean, let's face it. We all know that it's not a matter of if it's, when you get infiltrated. And so to the extent that I can actually have systems that allow me to recover, I'm now in a much much stronger position in many respects, you know and CISOs again, will tell you this that's where we're shifting our investments >> Right. And you've got to do all of them. It's not just there's no silver bullet, but but that seems to me to be just a a misunderstood and undervalued part of the equation. And I think there's tremendous upside there for companies like yours. >> I think you're right. I think what I'll just add to that is the power of immutability, right? Just verifiably ensuring that your data has not changed because oftentimes you'll have attackers in these low and slow live off the land types of attacks change your data and affect its integrity with the Veeam suite of tools. You're able to provide for immutable or unchanged verifiable data and your backup strategy which is really the first step to recovery after a significant event. >> And that's key because a lot of times the hackers would go right after the backup Corpus you know, they'll sometimes start there is that all the data, you know, but if you can make that immutable and again, it, you know there's best practices there too, because, you know if you're not paying the cloud service for that immutability, if you stop paying then you lose that. So you have to be very careful about, you know how you know, who has access to that and you know what the policies are there, but again, you know you can put in, you know so a lot of this, as you know, is people in process. It's not just tech, so I'll give you the last word. I know you got to jump, but really appreciate.. >> Yeah, sure. >> You know, the only, the only thing that we didn't mention is user awareness and education. I think that is sort of the umbrella key focus principle for any successful cybersecurity program making sure your people understand, you know how to deal with phishing emails. You know, ransomware is a huge threat of our time at 90% of ransomware malware is delivered by phishing. So prepare your workforce to deal with phishing emails. And I think you'll save yourself quite a few headaches. >> It's great advice. I'm glad you mentioned that because because bad user behavior or maybe uninformed user behaviors is the more fair way to say it. It will trump good security every time. Gil, thanks so much for coming to the CUBE and and keep fighting the fight. Best of luck going forward. >> Great. Thank you, Dave. >> All right. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Villante for the CUBEs continuous coverage VeeamON 2021, the virtual edition. We will be right back. (upbeat music)

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation vibrator this is Dave Volante and welcome to this special cube conversation as you know I've been running a CXO series now for several weeks really trying to understand how leaders are dealing and coping with the Cova 19 crisis today we want to switch gears a little bit and talk not only about how leadership has sort of navigated through this crisis but also start to imagine what it's going to look like coming out of it I'm going to introduce you to a company that have been talking about now for the last well six to nine months company called octave as you know from my previous breaking analysis this is a company that not only is in the security business they really kind of made their mark with identification management but also really there's a data angle normally when you think about security you thinking about auto security it means that less user flexibility it means less value from the user standpoint what what octa has done really successfully is bring together both endpoint security as well as that data angle and so the company is about six hundred million dollars in revenue they've got an eighteen billion dollar valuation which you know may sound kind of rich at 30 X a revenue multiple but as I've reported the company is growing very rapidly I've talked about the you know the rule of 40 octa is really a rule of 50 type of company you know by that definition they're with me here to talk about the product side of things as dia jolly who's the chief product officer yeah thanks so much for coming on the cube I hope you're doing okay how are things out in California things are going well good to meet you as well Dave I hope you're doing well as well yeah we're hanging in there you know the studios are rocking the cube you know continues our daily reporting I want to start with your role you're relatively new to octa you've got a really interesting background particularly understanding endpoints you're at Google Google home of Google Nest you spent some time you know worrying about looking after Xbox do you a good understanding of what's going on in the marketplace but talk about your your role and how specifically you're bringing that to enterprise sure so I drove about this I I say that I've done every kind of known product management imaginable the man at this point I'm done both Hardware Don software so dealt a lot with endpoints as you talked about that a lot with sass dealt with consumer dealt with enterprise and all over the place completely different sizes so after really my role as a chief product officer is to be able to understand and what our customers need right and what are the challenges they're facing and not just the challenges they're facing today but also what are the challenges that they'll face tomorrow that they don't even know about and then help build products to be able to overcome that both with our engineering teams as well as with our sales engineering team so that we can take it to market now my background is unique because I've seen so many identity being used in so many different ways across so many different use cases whether it's enterprise or its consumer and that given that we covered both sides spectrum I can bring that to bear yes so what I've reported previously is that that you guys kind of made your mark with with identification management but in terms of both workforce but also customer identification management which has been I think allowed you to be very very successful I want to bring up a chart and share something that I've I've shared a lot of data with our audience previously some guys if you bring that up so this is data from enterprise Technology Research our data partner and for those who follow this program you know we we generally talk in in two metrics a net score which is a measure of spending momentum and and also market share which really isn't real market share but it's it's pervasiveness in the survey and what you can see here is the latest April survey from over 1200 CIOs and IT practitioners and we're isolating on an octa and and we brought it back to July 15 survey you see a couple of points here I want to make one is it something to the right this is pervasiveness or market share so octa in the market is doing very very well it's why the valuation is so high what's driving the growth and then you can see in the green a 55% net net score very very strong it's one of the leaders in security but as I said it's more than than that so dia from a product standpoint what is powering this momentum sure so as you well know the world is working from home what after does is it provides Identity Management that allows you to connect to any technology and by any technology it primarily means technology technology that's not just on premise like your applications on-premise old-school applications or into software that's on premise but it also means technology that's in the clouds of SAS applications application infrastructure that's in the cloud etc and on the other hand it also allows companies to deploy applications where they can connect to their customers online so as more and more of the world moves to work from home you need to be able to securely and seamlessly allow your employees your partners to be able to connect from their home and to be able to do their work and that's the foundation that we provide now if you look at if you we've heard a lot in the press about companies like zoom slack people that provide online collaboration and their usage has gone up we're seeing similar trends across both octa as well as the entire security industry in general right and if you look at information recently since over to started phishing attacks have increased by six hundred and sixty seven percent and what we've seen in response is one of our products which is multi-factor authentication we've experienced in eighty percent growth in usage so really as Corvette has pushed forward there was a trend for people to be able to work remotely for people to be able to access cloud apps and but as ubered has suddenly poured gas on the fire for that we're seeing our customers reaching out to us a lot more needing more support and just the level of awareness and the level of interest raising let's talk about some of the trends that you guys see in the marketplace and like to better understand how that informs your product or you know roadmap and decisions you know obviously this cloud you guys have made a really good mark in the cloud space you know with both your your operating model your pricing model the modern stack the other is a reference that upfront which data talked a lot about digital transformation digital us data course the third is purity related to trust we've talked a lot on the cube about how the perimeter is there is no particular anymore the Queen is left her castle and so what are the big trends that you see the big waves that that you're riding and how does that inform your product directly sure so a few different things I think number one if you think about the way I've phrase this is or the way I think about it is the following any big technological trend you see today right whether it's the move the cloud whether it's mobile whether it's artificial intelligence intelligence you think about the neural nets etc or it's a personalized consumer experience all of that fundamentally depends on identity so the most important the so from a from being an identity provider the most important thing for us is to be able to build something that is flexible enough that is broad enough that it is able to span multiple uses right so we've taken from a product perspective that means we can follow two philosophies we can either the try and go solve each of these pain points one by one or we can actually try to build a platform that is more open that's more extensible and that's more flexible so that we can solve many of these use cases right and not only can we solve it because there's it extensible our customers can customize it they can build on top of it our partners can build on top of it so that's one thing that's one product philosophy that we hold dear and so we have the Octagon cloud which is a platform which provides both workforce identity as well as customer identity using the same underlying components the same multi-factor authentication we use for workforce we package up as an SDK so that our customer identity customers that's number one the second thing is you rightfully mention is data you can't really secure identity without data so we have very we have a lot of data across our customers we know when the users logging in we know what device they're logging in front we know the security posture on the device we know where they're logging in from we know their different behaviors were apps they go into or during wartime of the day etc so being able to harness all this data to say hey and apply ml model squared to say hey is the user secure or not is a very very core foundation of our product so for example we have what we call risk-based authentication you can not only do things like hey this user seems to be logging on from a location they've never logged on from but you could even do things like well you may not want to stop the user they may be traveling so instead of just asking them for a for a password you ask them for a multi-factor right so that's the other piece of it and in many ways data and security and usability are three legs of a triangle the more data you have the more you can allow a user you more security you can provide a user without creating more friction so it's sometimes helpful for the audience to understand a company in a edit Avant act in the landscape so the obvious platform out there is Active Directory now Microsoft with Azure Active Directory you know really you know trying to and and that's really been on their platforms but with api's you know Microsoft has got a thumbs in every pie how does octave differentiate from some of the other traditional platforms that are out there and and what gives you confidence that it and you can continue to do so going forward post kovat that's it that's a fantastic question Dave um so I think we divide if you think about our competitors on the workforce side we've got Microsoft and a couple of other competitors and on the customer Identity side really it's a bill versus buy story right most companies customer identity internally so let's take workforce first Microsoft is the dominant player there they've got Active Directory they've now got Azure Active Directory and from a Microsoft perspective I think Microsoft is always been great at building products or building technology that interconnected run the world is going to more there's more and more technology proliferation in the world and the way we differentiate is by becoming a neutral and independent platform so whether you're on a Microsoft stack whether you're on a Google stack whether you're on an amazon stack we are able to connect with you deeply we connect just as well with all 365 as they connect with Salesforce as we connect with AWS right and that has been our core philosophy and not only is that a philosophy for other when other vendors it's a philosophy for ourselves as well we have multi-factor authentication so do many other providers like duo if you want to use ours great if you don't want to use ours with our platform who use the one that's best for your technology and I think what we've always believed in from a product perspective is this independence this neutrality this ability to plug-and-play any technology you want into a platform to be able to do what you want and the technology that's best for your business's need so what's interesting what you said about the sort of make versus buy that's particularly relevant for the customer identification management because let's say you know I'm buying from Amazon I've got Amazon they know who I am but if I understand it correctly customers now are able to look across brands maybe cohort selling maybe make specific offers analyze the data that's an advantage that you bring that maybe do it yourself doesn't Frank maybe talk about that a little bit sure so really if you think about if you think about a bill versus buying even ten years ago life used to be relatively simple maybe 15 years ago you had a website you as your username your the password you weren't really using you don't have multiple channels you didn't have multiple devices as prevalent you didn't have multiple apps in a lot of cases connected to each other right and in that in that day and age password was fairly secure you weren't doing a lot of personalization with the user data or had a lot of sensitive user data so building a custom identity solution having your customer managing your customers identity yourself was fairly easy now it's becoming more and more hard number one I just talked about the phishing attacks they're an equal number of attacks on the customer identity side right so how do you actually secure this identity how do you actually use things like multi-factor authentication how do you keep up with all the latest in multi-factor authentication touch ID face ID etcetera and that's one the second thing we provide is scale for a number of companies we also provide the ability to scale dramatically which scaling identity and being being able to authenticate someone and keep someone authenticated in real time is actually a very big channel challenge as you get to more and more scale and then the last thing that you mentioned is this ability we provide a single view of the user which is super super powerful because now if you think about one of our customers Albertsons they have multiple different apps there are multiple different digital experiences and he don't have a siloed view of their customer across all these experiences here one identity for your customer that customer uses that one identity to log on to all your digital experiences across all channels and we're able to bring that data back together so if Albertsons wants to say hey somebody shot a in or bought something in one particular app but I know people that buy this particular object like something else that's available in another app they can give a promotion for it or they can give a discomfort that's so that makes a lot of sense I went into the PR platform get our data partner and I looked at which industries are really showing moment so remember this survey focus was run right in the heart of the the Cova 19 pandemic from from mid-march the mid April so it's a good of good current data point and there were four that stood out large companies healthcare and pharma telco which is courses this work-from-home thing and then consumer the example that you just gave from Albertsons is really you know sort of around that consumer there are a lot of industries that obviously been hit airlines restaurants hospitality but but these four really stood out as growth areas despite the kovat 19 pandemic I want to ask you about octane you just got it had your big user conference anything product specific that came out of that that our audience should know about I mean I'm an interested in access gateway I know that wasn't necessarily a new announcement but Cloud Gateway what were the highlights of some of those things from a product stamp yeah of course so we did we did made a very difficult decision to pivot octane virtually and we did this because a number of our customers are given what they're facing with the Kovach pandemic wanted to hear more around news around what our product launches are how they could use this with cetera and really I'd say there are three key product launches that I want to highlight here we had a number of different announcements and it was a very successful conference but the three that are the most relevant here one is we've always talked about being a platform and we've set this for the past four or five years I think and but over the last your and going into the next couple of years we're investing very very heavily in making our platform even more powerful even more extensible even more customizable and so that it can go across the scenarios you described right which is whether you're on Prem with Auto access gateway or you're in the cloud or in some kind of hybrid environment or you using some mix-and-match or work from home people in the office etc so really what we did this year over the last year was deepen our platform footprint and we started releasing the four components available in a platform which we call platform services so we have six components and we were directories that is customizable and and flexible so you can build your own emails except for N equals four users adds information related to them we have an integration platform that we've made available at a deep level where where our customers can use SDKs tools etc to be able to integrate with octa in a platform which we've talked a lot about and then we released three new platform services and one was what we call arc identity engine we had released we talked about this last year and this year we talked about it last year from a customer identity perspective this year we brought her into our workforce identity but also what that does is it allows you a lot more flexibility for situations like we're in right it allows you flexibility to define security policies at the parabola it so you could decide hey for my email I don't want my customers to have to use a multi-factor authentication for but for Salesforce I would definitely want them to use a multi-factor authentication if they're not in the office and it also allows you to have a lot more flexible factor recovery so for example if you forgot your password one of the biggest pain points of co-ed has been the number of helpdesk costs have been rising through the roof the phone calls are ringing nonstop right and one of the biggest reasons for helpdesk are says oh I can't login I got locked out either lost a factor or L forgot my password it helps with that um so that's one set of announcements the second set of announcements was we launched a brand new devices platform and personally this is my personal favorite but really what the devices platform allows you to do is the feature in it that we launched is called Fast Pass and what phosphorous allows you to do is it actually takes phosphorous to the next level it allows you to basically use logging into your device and us understanding the posture of the device and all the user context around you to be able to log you directly dr. then I imagine if you're on a Mac or a iOS device or an Android or a Windows device just being able to face match into your iOS or being able to touch ID into your Windows hello and you're automatically logged into lockdown right that is that and and the way we do that is we have this client on across all these operating systems that can really understand the security posture of the device it can understand of the device is managed if it's safe if it's jailbroken if it's unmanaged it can also connect with multiple signals on the device so if you have an EDR and MDM vendor we can ingest those signals and what they think of the risk we can also ingest signals directly from apps if apps things like um G suite and Salesforce actually track user behavior to determine risk they can pass those signals to us and then we can make a decision on hey we should allow the user to authenticate directly into octa because they've authenticated their device which we can make a decision that says no let's provider let's ask them to step up with a multi-factor authentication or we can say no this is too risky let's deny access and all of this is configurable by the IT admin they can decide the risk levels they're comfortable with they can decide the different risk levels by different apps so that was another major announcement and then and as a product person you rarely ever get the chance to actually increase security and usability at one time which is why it's my favorite you increase both security and usability together now the last one was action was a workflows engine we call it workflows lifecycle management and we it's really we launched a graphical no cord user interface identity is so important so many business processes for our customers there's so many business processes built an identity for example if someone joins her company you usually either have a script that allows them access to the applications they need to or you actually have an IT admin sitting in there trying to manually provide access or when they leave right what workflow lifecycle management or lifecycle management workflows allows you to do is it actually allows you to provide it actually provides you the no core graphical user interface where you can build all these flows so now you don't need someone that knows coding you can even have a business unit so for example I for me in the product for the product org I can have someone say hey building a business process similar it's something you would build in sort of like an iPad and allow everyone that comes in to be able to have access to fig mom because we use pigma a lot right those are the kinds of things you can do and it's super powerful and it takes the ability of our already existing lifecycle management product to the next level well thank you for that that's that summary dear so I want to kind of close with I mean those of you have been following the cube for a while there I think there's some similarities between octa and and and service now that obviously obvious differences but we started following you know ServiceNow pre-ipo is less than a hundred million dollar company and we've seen that company build out as a platform company and that's really what octa is doing here we're talking about a total available market that's yeah probably north of 50 billion so the the question I have he is you know what Frederic and pod started 11 years ago playing on the dynamics coming out of the financial crisis that got us to where we are today now you've got the challenge of you've achieved reached escape velocity now you've got this you know massive growth opportunity in front of you how do you see the product portfolio evolving expanding and I'm also interested in postcode with 19 you know no whiteboards no face-to-face contact not at least not for a while and how you're kind of managing through that but but how can we expect the product portfolio to expand over time what can you share with us so one of the given how pervasive identity has become and given how not just broad but at the same time deep it is there are multiple different places or product portfolio >> and a number of different places were thinking about right so one is you mentioned today we play in workforce identity and customer identity but we haven't even begun to talk about how we might play in consumer right one of the one of the biggest perk matter is consumers and consumers protecting their own identity so often an employee is not using their identity to lock the seals ports and you have an attack on a company and offered an employee actually logging into their Gmail their personal Gmail or their personal or some personal website that bank and they get and their credential get compromised in their fluency impossible so the more protective the more directly consumers the more we indirectly protect both enterprises from work from an employer as well as a customer perspective howdy we're an enterprise company so it doesn't mean that we are going to go direct to consumer there are ways to make employees more secure by what the director calls were so that's one the second thing is managing identities I think we've as the number of applications as the number of technologies are proliferate managing and an employee's life cycle who that governing that the life cycle is not administering etc is also fully stock also becoming very very challenging it was all well and good we'll never can ask and you were on that that's not true anymore an average company uses I think close to 200 applications and then if you broaden back to other resources like infrastructure there's a lot lock more so how do you actually build automated systems that based on the employee status based on their rule based on the project they're on provides them the right access for the right amount of time the third thing you mentioned is and you should pass on this initially but this is the there's this concept of zero security right and the perimeters disappeared how do you provide security so if you look at the industry at large today there are tons of different security vendors trying to provide security at each point if you talk to any see-saw out there it's really really hard to cobble all of this together and one of the things we were trying to do is we're trying to figure out how with our partners we can build a silly end-to-end solution for n - n zero trust for our customers so that's that's another area that the of the product portfolio we're pushing and then finally with the whole digital transformation and customer identity yes more and more companies want their customers to go back online yes more and more customers convenience of being able to interact online with Billy if you think about it the world has changed dramatically over the last three years with privacy laws with things like gdpr CCP etc how do you actually manage your customers obviously you actually manage their content how do you ensure that while you're using all this data from across these apps that we talked about here you and you're using for the first benefit how do you make sure that the minister private is secure and and how do you ensure your customers that's another major area that I think our customers are asking us for helping and so those are areas or so that you should be a big signature the next two to three years some of it will be through partnership that's generally that high-level directions we're headed in wealthy you so much for coming on the key on the key and sharing the product roadmap and some other details about the great company really interested in watching its continued ascendancy good luck in the marketplace and thank you for watching everybody this is Dave Villante you conversations we'll see you next time [Music]

everybody welcome to this digital coverage of the verdict of big data conference you're watching the cube and my name is Dave Galante it's my pleasure to invite in Ben white who's the senior database engineer at Domo been great to see you man thanks for coming on great to be here and here you know as I said you know earlier when we were off camera I really was hoping I could meet you face to face and in Boston this year but hey I'll take it and you know our community really wants to hear from experts like yourself but let's start with with domo is the company share with us what Domo does and what your role is there well if Parker can go straight to the official what Domo does is we provide we process data at bi to scale with we provide VI leverage a cloud scale in record time and so what that means is that you know we are a business operating system where we provide a number of analytical abilities to companies of all sizes but we do that at cloud scale and so I think that difference is quite a bit so a lot of your work if I understand it and just in terms of understanding with Domo does--is there's a lot of pressure in terms of being real-time it's not like you sometimes don't know what's coming at you so it's AD Hoch I wonder if you could sort of talk about that confirm that and maybe add a little color to it yeah absolutely absolutely that's probably the biggest challenge it is to being the operating Domo is that it is an ad hoc environment and certainly what that means is that you've got analysts and executives that are able to submit their own queries without very with very few limitations so from an engineering standpoint the challenge in that of course is that you don't have this predictable dashboard to plan for when it comes to performance planning and so it definitely presents some challenges for us that we've done some pretty unique things I think to address those right sounds like your background fits well with that I understand here if people have called you a database whisperer and an envelope pusher what does that mean to do a DBA in this in this day and age well the whisperer part is probably a lost art in the sense that it's not really sustainable right the idea that you know whatever it is I'm able to do with the database it has to be repeatable and so that's really what analytics comes in right and that's where pushing the envelope comes in in a little right away that's what vertical comes in with this open architecture and so as a person who has a reputation for saying I understand this is what our limitations should be but I think we can do more having a platform like vertical is such an open architecture kinda lets you push those limits by the bit I mean I've always felt like you know vertical when I first saw the Stonebreaker architecture and doctors some of the early founders I always felt like it was the Ferrari of databases certainly at the time and it sounds like you guys use it in that in that regard but talk a little bit more about how you use Vertica why in a ym ppy Vertica you know why why can't you do this with our DBMS educate us a little bit on some of the basics but for us it was part of what I mentioned when we start and we talked about the very nature of the demo platform where there's a an incredible amount of resiliency required and so Vertica the NPP platform of course allows us to build individual database clusters that can perform best for the workload that may be assigned to them so the the open the expandable the the the ability to grow vertically as your base grow those are all important factors when you're losing early on right without a real idea of how growth would be or what it would look like if you were kind of doing that something to the dark you looked at the vertical platforming you can see well as I grow I can kind of feel with this right I can do some some unique things with the platform in terms of this poking architecture that will allow me to not have to make all my decisions today right about Harlem so you're using Vertica I know at least in part you you working with AWS as well can you describe sort of your environment that you give anything on Prem is everything in the cloud what's your setup sure we have a hybrid cloud environment where we have a significant presence in public files in our own private cloud and so yeah having said that we certainly have a really an extensive presence I will say an AWS and so they're definitely the partner of our when it comes to providing the databases the server power that we need to operator but from the standpoint of engineering and architecting a database what was some of the challenges that you faced when you had to create that hybrid architecture what did you face and how did you overcome that well you know some of the there are some things we need faced in terms of wine and made it easy that Vertica and AWS have their own they play well together we'll say that and so vertical is designed to reprise I'm gonna AWS and so that part of it the care of itself not our own private cloud and being able to connect that because our public clouds has been a part of our own engineering ability and again I don't want to make a little light of it it's certainly not impossible and so we've some of the challenges though this pertains to the database really were in their early days that you mentioned when we talked a little bit earlier about marathas most recent Eon mode and I'm sure you'll get to that but when I think of our early challenges some of the early challenges were the architecture of enterprise mode when I talk about all of these this idea that we could have unique databases or database clusters of different sizes so this elasticity that's really if you know that the enterprise architecture that's not necessarily dandified architecture so we added this Munich things I think to overcome that right early to get around the rigidness though enterprise yeah I mean I hear you right Enterprise is complex and and you like when things are hardened and fossilized but in your ad hoc environment that's not what you needed so talking more about Aeon mode what what is e on mode for you and how do you apply it what are some of the challenges and opportunities there that you found um so the opportunities were certainly in its elastic architecture the ability to separate the storage immediately meant that for some of the unique data paths that we wanted to take right we could do that fairly quickly certainly we could expand databases right quickly but more importantly now you could reduce because previously in the past right when I mention the Enterprise Architect with the idea of growing a database in itself has its pain right as far as the time it takes to speed the data in that but to read to then think about taking that database back down no Innova though all of us under the eon right you had this elasticity where you could kind of start to think about auto scaling where you go up and down and maybe used to save some money or maybe you could improve performance or maybe in needham and at a time when the customers needed most in a real way right so it was definitely a game in that regard I always have to talk to the customers because I get to you know I hear from the vendor what they say and I think they sort of validate it so you know Vertica talks a lot about separating compute and storage they're not the only one from an architectural standpoint to do that but Vertica stresses that they're the only one that does that with a hybrid architecture they can do it off ram they can do it in the cloud from your experience well first of all is it true you may or may not know it is that advantageous to you and if so why well first of all it's certainly true earlier in some of the original beta ethnic for the arm prim GI mode stuff we I was able to participate in it and be aware of it so it's certainly a reality day I'm it's actually supported on pure spirit with flash played and it's time quite impressive you know for who who that who that will be for tough one a Spartacus question that they're probably still answering but I think obviously some enterprise users that probably have some hybrid cloud right they have some architecture they have some hardware that their sales want to make you so we certainly would probably fit into one of their you know their market segments that they would say we might be the wants to look at on pram er mo begin the the beauty of it is the elasticity right that the idea that you could have this and so a lot of times so I want to go back real quick to separating them and you know we start by separating it and I like to think of it maybe more as like decoupling because a new in a true way it's not necessary separated there's ultimately you bring the compute and the doors back together but to be able to typically couple it quickly replace knows bring in those that's certainly fits I think what we were trying to do in building this Emma I'll me let the ecosystem that could respond to a unknown or of a customer demand I see thank you for that clarification because you're right it's really not separating its decoupling in it that's important because you can scale them independently but you still need compute and you still need storage to run you your workloads but from a cost standpoint you're not to buy it in in chunks you can you can't buy granular segments for whatever your workload requires is that is that the correct understanding yeah and to be able to the ability to be able to reuse compute throw it in a scenario of AWS or even in the scenario your on-prem solution you've got this data that's safest here and ask for your in your storage but then the compute that you have you can reuse that right you could have a scenario that you have some query that needs more analytic more firepower more memory more what have you that you haven't so you can kind of move to the next important right that's maybe more important then and I grow them separately can I can I borrow it can I borrow that computer use for my perfect give it back type of thing and you can do that when you're so easily a couple different ooh all right and likewise if you have a down period where customers aren't using it you'd like to be able to not use that if you no longer require if you'd like to give it back go in it open the door to a lot of those things that allow performance and cross the spark to meet up we're going to ask you a question winsome pure a couple times are you using pure flash blade on-prem is that correct that is the solution that is supported that is supported by Vertica for the on print so at this point we were we have been discuss with them about some our own PLC's for that time before again we back to the idea of how do we see ourselves using it and so we've certainly discussed the feasibility of bringing it in and give it a job but that's not something we're Oh happily all right now then what is Domo for Domo tell us about that we really started this this idea even in the company where we say you know we should be using Domo in our everyday business the sales folks the marketing folks right everybody we're gonna use Domo it's a business platform for us in the engineering team it was kind of like well if we use Domo say for instance to be better at the database engineers now we've pointed Domo edits tell fried verdict is running Domo in the background for some degree and then we turn around and say hey Domo how can we better at running you and so it became this kind of cool thing we played with where we're now able to put some dumb methods together where we can actually do their eye we can monitor using our platform it's really good at processing large amounts of data and spitting out useful analytics right we take those analytics out make recommendation changes that the day so now you've got still more for Domo happening it allows us to sit at home and and work now even when we have to even before we had to well you know look look at us here right it couldn't mean in Boston physically we're now meeting remote you're you're on a hot spot because you got some weather and your satellite internet and in Atlanta and we're having a great conversation so so we're here with with Ben white who's the senior database engineer at Domo I want to ask you about some of the envelope-pushing that you've done around autonomous you hear that that word thrown around a lot means a lot of things to a lot of different people how do you look at autonomous and how does it fit with Eon and some of the other things that you're doing you know I'm a tall amidst the idea of economy is something that I don't even know that I'm I have already ready to define and so even in my discussion I often mention it as a road to it exactly where it is it's hard to pin down because there's always this idea how much trust do you give right to the system or how much how much is truly autonomous how much authority is being intervened by us the engineers so I do hate on using it but on this road towards autonomy when we look at what would how we're using Domo and even what that really means to vertical because in a lot of my examples and a lot of the things that we've engineered a demo work designs maybe over something I thought was a limitation day and so many times Oh as we've done that verdict is kind of met us like right after we've kind of engineered our architecture stuff than we thought it felt on our side Vertica has some released it kinda addresses it so the autonomy idea and the idea that we could analyzed metadata make recommendations and then execute those recommendations without intervention is that road to autonomy and once the databases start able to do that you can see in our ad-hoc environment how that would be pretty pretty useful where with literally millions of queries every hour trying to figure out what's the best you know probably for years I felt like I I T folks sometimes we really did not want that automation they wanted the knobs to turn but but I wonder if you comment I feel as though the level of complexity now with cloud with on-prem with you know hybrid multi clouds the scale the speed the real-time it just gets the pace is just too much for for humans and so it's almost like you know the industries is gonna have to capitulate to the Machine and then really trust the machine but I'm sitting I'm still sensing from you a little bit of hesitation there but light at the end of the tunnel I wonder if you could comment sure I think that in the light of the tunnel is even in recent months in recent we've really began incorporating more machine learning in artificial intelligence to the model right and back to where we're saying it so I do feel they were getting close for too finding conditions that we don't know about because right now our system is kind of a rule rules based system where we've said well these are the things that we should be looking for these are the things that we think are a problem to mature to the point where the database is recognized and anomalies and taken on at imagining saying these are problems you didn't know happen and that's kind of the next step right identifying the things you didn't know and that's where that's the path we're on now and that's probably more exciting even then kind of nailing down all the things you think you know and to figure out what we don't know yet so I want to close with I know you're a prominent member of the respected member of the Vertica a customer advisory board you know without divulging anything confidential to me what are the kinds of things that you want Vertica to do going forward I think some of the end a in database autonomy the ability to take some of the recommendations that we know we can derive from the metadata that already exists in the platform and start to execute some of the recommendation another thing we talk about and I'm gonna pretty open about talking to it is talking about it is the new version of the database designer I think it's something that I'm sure they're working on lightweight something that can give us that's database design without the overhead those are two things I think as they nail or particularly the database designer as they respect that they'll really have all the components in place to do in based economy and I think that's just some victory where they're headed yeah nice well Ben listen I really appreciate you coming on your a thought leader be very open open-minded verdict is you know really open community I mean they've always been quite transparent in terms of where they're going it's just awesome to have guys like you on the cube to share with our community so thank you so much and hopefully we can meet face to face currently absolutely will you stay safe in Boston I'm one of my favorite towns and so no doubt when this when the doors get back open I'll be from coming down or coming I'm gonna do work take care all right and thank you for watching everybody Villante with a cube we're here covering the virtual Vertica of big data conference you [Music]

hello everyone and welcome to this week's wiki Bond cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis we're going to share fresh data from etrs latest spending survey in particular ETR added a drill down question on the impact of coronavirus now yesterday I had the pleasure of hosting ETRS director of research Sagar khadiyah who took us through the details of that survey and we're gonna bring his comments in to this discussion so today I want to accomplish three things first I want to summarize the macro where are we at this point on the second day of spring in Massachusetts second I want to assess the impact from Co vid 19 on i.t spend for 2020 and the third thing I want to do is drill down into the findings from ET ARS latest survey after we do this I'll summarize and talk about what the outlook it looks like so where are we today you know we've gone from the fear of missing out in the stock market to basically fall out fear now as you well know the economic impact is not pretty I gotta say this is the first time I've ever seen a government imposed recession rightly so to save lives but I've also never seen such an escrow the board doubled downward shift in both supply and demand this creates uncertainty and ambiguity in pricing which makes forecasting anything really really difficult the liquidity shock and the credit risks are really of primary concern right now the price of oil is a huge issue why it's because energy companies account for a very sizable portion of the high-yield credit market over 10% so as prices fall it's going to be harder for oil companies to repay loans this creates default risk so this is the markets freaked out and functioning very very poorly now a poorly functioning market signals that we are not at the bottom everybody wants to know where the bottom is I'm not a stock picker and I'm not a market technician but I've seen a lot of downturns I'll share a quick story when I was at IDC we had an exclusive deal with Goldman Sachs two of the Goldman analysts were embedded into our Framingham offices now in 1987 on Black Monday and the following weeks I would stand at their real-time terminal there was no internet back then kids nobody had access to real-time trades but I did and I would watch the market in freefall and I would see it bounce back and then I would see it freefall again what I will tell you is this bottoms are impossible to protect everybody says that why because bottoms are not technical their psychological their emotional and in 1987 and then after the dot-com bust and after the financial crisis each time you saw the S&P with rally sometimes it would rally as high as 10% it would suck people back into the market and then pull back and that's going to happen here the markets not just gonna be fine any day now now if you're looking for some positives there is some silver linings that the canals in Venice are running clear which is amazing to see nitrous oxide levels over China are way way down okay let's shift and take a look at what this all means for IT spending what are the industries that are being most affected right now now as I show here there are some obvious sectors like energy and transportation retail etc but let's listen to Sagar from ETR what he told me yesterday now pay particular attention to what he says about supply chains roll the clip yeah industrials materials manufacturing retail consumer you know the healthcare pharma they you know those are the verticals from a supply chain perspective that are in you know elevated levels of broken supply chains and what's actually interesting is we in this survey we actually asked not only whether your supply chains were broken today but do you anticipate or do you continue or do and just they continue getting experiencing broken supply chains in three months from now and those percentages were up and I think that really tells us that this is not a one or two month type of recovery we're gonna see supply chains and demand continuing to be broken continuing to come down over the next three four months that I think is probably one of the biggest takeaways from the drill-down study so you see in the EGR survey it really underscores that we are not likely to see a quick snap back it's not a 1 or a two-month fix now in my own research I go out to the field I talked to people on the cube within our network I can add some excuse me some comments and some color here what we see is that healthcare right now is so swamped that they're not buying anything I mean they just they just are how many cycles most customers are taking they're skunkworks put anyone hold they're narrowing the capital spend and really focusing only on mission-critical items banks even though banks are down they have capital and they're still buying they got cash thanks they're smart and they're negotiating very hard for big discounts the other thing is a lot of customers have no choice but to buy many are on an AR are in your recurring revenue or annual current contract and have compliance edicts like we got to send out monthly statements if they don't renew they can't use their software to do that it's different but somewhat similar with maintenance contracts so you're seeing that sales teams are clearly bringing down their forecasts but they're not cutting them in half mmm not yet anyway all right but here's what's somewhat counterintuitive and you really you can really only quantify this with data some companies actually believe it or not they're spending more why because they try to preserve productivity would their work from home solutions they need infrastructure to do that so they're pivoting their budget to work from home they also have to secure that infrastructure so that means the cyber cyber security is seeing a little bit of momentum now let's take a look at the EGR data this is from more than a thousand CIOs and IT buyers it's fresh data right from March 40% of the survey said they see no current impact on their IT budget that is surprisingly high and look at all the green to the right-hand side you know most are showing five to ten percent increase but more than 20% of the respondents are actually expecting to increase budget in 2020 for things like work from home infrastructure let's take a listen to saga kadia who explains this further roll the clip yeah I think that's I think the the positive spent or the no change in spend I think that is what a lot of the market right now is missing and I haven't seen a lot of research on that because no one else has really been able to quantify how budgets are changing and so as you noted we're actually seeing people accelerate spend because of Kovan 19 and the reason is you know they're trying to avoid a catastrophe in productivity they are ramping up all this work from home infrastructure right not just collaboration tools virtualization infrastructure increasing VPN networking bandwidth mobile devices laptops security desktop support right you're a fortune 500 organization and you have 40 50 60 thousand employees working from home all the sudden you have to be able to support those employees and as a result you're actually seeing a large number of organizations accelerating spend and even the ones that are being hurt by the broken supply chains the demand coming down you're seeing some of their spendy seller ation being offset by spending a little bit more kind of what we're calling this kind of work from home infrastructure so sada went on to explain that consensus consensus expectations for global IT spend they were roughly at four percent before coronavirus and the pullback takes us now to flat or zero percent but what's not been reported is really the offset to the declines particularly from the work from home infrastructure now obviously this could all change in a likely will but this next chart really underscores that uncertainty and really the dynamic nature of the risk here what this track charts is the daily impact of the expected retraction so earlier this month in the et our survey you saw about a two percent retraction and exceed by March seventeenth it's down to flat so as we heard from Sagar the et our thesis is currently at 0% IT spend for growth in 2020 because of some of the offset now if the news continues to worsen the outlook is going to follow alright I want to wrap up by summarizing and and talking about what what's next and what you can expect so the current call as I said is for flat IT spend in 2020 it would be worse if not for the uptick in work from home and corollaries security infrastructure now it's not just collaboration and video tools it's virtualization solutions it's VPNs network upgrades mobile devices laptops and and the software to to secure all this stuff and make it work now despite the work from home offset we fully expect this picture or worsen over the next three months you got a watch for the duration of the the remote work at home mandates the travel bans the the no meeting policies there's a little doubt that productivity is going to be heard as we discussed yesterday with Sagar you can't just flick a switch and scale remote worker productivity you know that's a real challenge now having said that the expectation from CIOs is that this spending decline is going to be temporary what's unclear is the shape of the recovery is it going to be a v-shaped or a slow slog you can see the distant rim on the other side of the canyon it's there we just don't know how far away it is and we don't know how deep the canyon really is now there will be changes in our opinion that are going to be permanent as we said on a last braking analysis over the next several months organizations they're going to learn new things and that is going to shape their thinking in the future I personally expect accelerated digital transformations and a sustained viability of the work from home options you're gonna see new capabilities from distant learning with all the college shutdowns you're also going to see new risk mitigation paradigms you know the list goes on and on and on in terms of what we're going to see here as I said earlier there seemed to be some environmental benefits you know if you're looking for some positives here I think this next generation is much more in tune with that and you have my word and my promise and our team's promise that the cube and ETR is going to be here to keep you up to date et our survey data keeps rolling in you can check that out at ETR dot plus they are vigilant on this issue as are we from our remote studios look this is the new normal our skeleton crews are in studio and we're keeping the content flowing as many folks on our team they're working from home and they're on the grid currently our Palo Alto studio is fully operational four days a week each week and we're capturing remote guests on camera and Boston is open as well so get in touch if you need anything we are here to help and we're here to serve you okay this is Dave Villante for wiki bones cube insights powered by ETR thanks for watching this breaking analysis remember these episodes they're available on podcasts wherever you listen please connect with me emails David Galante at Silicon angle dot-com comment on my LinkedIn post I always appreciate that from the community thanks for watching everybody wishing good health and safety for you and your families we'll see you next time [Music]

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape hello everyone and welcome to this week's wiki bond cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis we want to dig into the so called multi-cloud arena some of the questions we're getting from our community are what is a multi cloud did we really need it what problems does multi-cloud solve and importantly what problems does it create how is this thing called multi cloud likely to evolve and who are some of the key players to watch how do they stack up relative to each other you know recently I got a couple of interesting questions from a customer that says I have all this AI action going on and doing sophisticated modeling and this data lives and oh clouds all over the place how do I cross connect to the data and the workloads that are running on these clouds with the consistence this consistent experience of what our other customers doing another question came up in the community today is there a financial advantage to multi cloud or is it just about avoiding lock-in so I'm gonna take a stab at addressing these questions so first of all let's look at some of the noise that's going on in the marketplace and try to extract a little signal every vendor especially the ones who don't own a cloud are touting this thing called multi cloud and they tell us that customers want to avoid lock-in and organizations want seamless integration across clouds and they say we the vendor are uniquely qualified to deliver that capability although as you can see here in for a not everybody agrees because some feel that multi cloud is less secure more complicated in higher cost now the reality is that one two and three are true as is for a to a certain degree but generally I would say that multi cloud to date is more of a symptom of multi vendor then a clear strategy but that's beginning to change and there's a substantial opportunity out there for anyone to win so let's explore this a little bit and an exclusive sit-down with aunty Jessie prior to reinvent 2019 John Fourier got Jessie to talk about this trend here's what he said we have a large number of companies who have gone all-in on AWS and that's growing but there's gonna be other companies who decide that they're going to use multiple clouds for different reasons you wouldn't have to say that the vast majority of organizations pursuing cloud tend to pick a predominant provider that it's not a 50/50 scenario it's rather it's more like a 70/30 or 8020 or even a 90/10 faria went on to write somewhat paraphrasing I think Jesse in my view it's not hard to find the reasons for using multiple clouds right is M&A there's shadow IT there's developer preference but it's really not multi cloud by design it's just more of the same Enterprise IT mishmash that we've seen for decades so I generally have to say I agree with that but it is changing and I want to dig into that a bit so first let me recap the basic premise that we work off of first cloud is winning in the marketplace we know this building data centers is not the best use of capital unless you're a data center operator or a hyper scaler or you know maybe a SAS provider maybe so more and more work is going to continue to move to the cloud this was pretty much the first wave of cloud if you will a cloud of remote infrastructure services for very obvious workloads like web test dev analytics and certain SAS offerings the second wave of cloud which we've been talking about for 15 years was or should I say is a hybrid connecting remote cloud services to on-prem workloads and the third wave which is really hitting somewhat in parallel is this thing that we call multi cloud now it's not a perfect analogy but these multi generational waves remind us of the early days of networking now some of you may remember that years ago the industry was comprised of multiple dominant vendors that control their own proprietary network stacks for example IBM had SN a digital or deck had decnet all the many computer vendors had their own proprietary nets now in the early to mid-1980s the OSI model emerged with the objective of creating interoperability amongst all these different communication systems and the idea was we're going to standardize on protocols and the model had seven layers all the way from the physical layer through the application but really in reality was a pipe dream because we were way too complicated and and it sort of assumed that customers are gonna rip and replace their existing networks and then standardize on the OSI model now in reality that was never gonna happen however what it did is it open the door for new companies and you saw firms like Cisco and 3com emerged with tcp/ip and Ethernet becoming standardized and enabling connections between these systems and it totally changed the industry as we now know it so what does this have to do with multi-cloud well today you kind of have a similar situation with dominant public cloud leaders like AWS and azure and in this analogy they are the proprietary siloed networks of the past like IBM and digital they're more open obviously but still ultimately customers are going to put workloads on the right cloud for the right job and that includes putting work on Prem and connecting it to the public cloud with call it a substantially similar and ideally identical experience that's what we call hybrid now that's today's big wave and you're seeing it with Amazon's outposts and VMware and Amazon and Azure stack etc so while all this hybrid action is getting wired up customers are putting work into AWS and Azure and certainly Google and IBM cloud and the Oracle cloud and so forth now customers are wanting to connect across clouds with a substantially similar experience because that reduces cost and of course it speeds business outcomes that's what we call multi cloud now I'm not by any means suggesting that Amazon and Microsoft are gonna go the way of the mini computer vendors I don't believe that I think leaders today are much more savvy and tuned into how to surf the waves they're more paranoid and they're frankly just smarter than back in the 70s and 80s but it's not a rite of passage if they ignore the trends they will face challenges that could become driftwood so you're seeing the emergence of some of the moves from the vendor crowd the big whales connecting their infrastructure like AWS and VMware and Microsoft and Oracle quite interesting and IBM Red Hat with everybody cisco Dell HPE with everyone Google with anthos and a lot of other players all are trying to stake a claim in this hybrid and multi cloud world but you also have these emerging players that are innovators companies like CrowdStrike in security cumulant in the backup space and many dozens of well-funded players looking to grab a share of this multi cloud pie and it's worth pointing out that they're all kind of going gaga over kubernetes now of course this makes sense because kubernetes has emerged as a standard it's certainly very popular with developers why because it enables portability and allows them to package applications and of course all they're related to tendencies around those applications and then hand that app off for testing or deployment and it's gonna behave in the exact same way as when they ran it locally this we've seen and we know this but I want to share something I had a great conversation with Bernard golden yesterday and he made an excellent point about well you know kubernetes and containers he said this portability is a necessary but insufficient condition for multi cloud to succeed you still have to have an integrated management approach to security ID management monitoring performance reporting and end get into cross-training of people and skills etc ok I want to shift gears and as always I want to dig into these segments and bring in the et our perspective now pretty sure ETR is a lot of data on multi cloud from their ven meetings and other surveys but what I've done today is pulled some data that I'm using is indicators or proxies for multi cloud so I can't go out and buy me some multi cloud today it doesn't really exist in that form so what we have to do is highlight some of the trends in the data and draw some inferences from that so let's take a look at this chart what it shows is the relative position of a number of companies that my view are participating in the multi cloud arena the chart plots these companies showing net score or remember spending momentum on the y-axis and we've just opposed that to what's called market share on the x-axis market share is a measure of pervasiveness in the data set and what we've done is we've filtered on three sectors cloud container orchestration and container platforms using that as a proxy for multi cloud so these are buyers 791 of them as you can see by the end who are spenders in these three areas and we're isolating on select group of names and as a last filter we selected only companies with 50 or more results in the data set from this survey and we're using this as a multi cloud sector proxy so let me make a couple of comments here first I know kubernetes is not a company but ETR captures spending on kubernetes it's one of the hottest areas in the data set with a nearly 82% net score so we're capturing that as a reference point the next thing I want to say is you can see the big cloud players Azure and AWS and once again as in previous breaking analysis segments we see those two look they're leaders they're out the lead both companies showing very very strong momentum from a net score standpoint now AWS you might say why are you including a diversity if they don't explicitly have a multi cloud offering but in my view you cannot talk about multi cloud without including the leading cloud supplier you also see Google not so much in the market share of the big two but Google's showing strong net score we've talked about that before and they're very well positioned in multi cloud with anthos there behind their playing cloud agnostic to try to catch up again remember this is a proxy that we are running it's not necessarily a reflection of firms specific multi cloud offerings it's an indicator based on the filters that we've run now let's take a look at some of the others rubric the data protection specialists and CrowdStrike was a security darling they show some real strengths both have multi cloud offerings and they have strategies around their look at how she Corp they stand out as an important player in our view as they provide developer tooling to run secure and and deploy applications across clouds VMware cloud is I believe it's a vfc VMware cloud foundation and it's right there in the mix and you can also see fortunate in there as well executing from a security position I talked about them last week in my braking analysis they have a nice cloud portfolio and they're benefiting from execution strong execution let me call your attention to IBM in Red Hat Red Hat OpenShift look at their respective positions on this chart IBM spending velocity or net score is low but Red Hat has quite strong spending velocity and this is CEO Arvind Krishna's opportunity leverage IBM's large install based presence shown here as market share or pervasiveness and bring red hat to the right and leverage open shifts coolness to increase IBM's relevance and elevate it elevated spending velocity if arvind can make the kind of progress that i'm showing here in this picture he'll end up being CEO of the decade but that really is IBM's opportunity you can also see I put Oracle in the chart as well because of their multi cloud relationship with Microsoft which which I actually think has great potential for running mission-critical Oracle databases as I've noted many times I've you know IBM and Oracle both have clouds they're in the cloud game there are hyper scalar clouds but they have very large installed software franchises why is that important because it insulates them from the I ass ix knife fight and the pricing pressures that are putting forth by the hyper scalars the finally I have to mention Cisco I've said many times comes at multi cloud from a position of strength and networking and of course security they've got a huge market presence and not without challenges but they clearly are a player here ok now let's go on and look at some similar proxy data basically the same cut isolated on a few big players participating in multi cloud so again same cut as before but this is this shows a time series isolating on some of those Biggie's showing their net score or spending momentum in cloud and container related sectors that I talked about you got Azure leading GCP showing momentum IBM Red Hat with open shift and VMware all with solid net scores that are in the green cisco not as strong from a net score or spending velocity standpoint but it's shared in or presence in the data set is significant in this cut so two takeaways here really are one this is a wide-open race it's jump ball you really can't pick a winner yet and to each is gonna come at this from their own unique position of strength which brings me to how we see this space evolving this simple chart here really shows how we see the multi cloud infrastructure stack emerging starting at the bottom we show in the stack networking you gotta have networking to cross connect clouds and this is where cisco you has to win the day not optional for them some big players are going after the control plane including Microsoft arc Google with anthos VMware with tans ooh IBM Red Hat and we think eventually AWS is a possibility to enter that game on the data plane you got some big whales like Dell EMC you got NetApp you've got HPE at IBM the big storage players as well you have specialists like pure who's doing some interesting things in block in the cloud and cumulonimbus mention you have a bunch of companies like Veritas cohesive the rubric vMac TIFIA is gonna be in there CommVault I mentioned Klum EO before IBM is another one you got a whole bunch of folks in networking big portfolio plays from the likes of Cisco I said to network I met security from Cisco Palo Alto fortunate along with many of the security specialists we've highlighted in the past like CrowdStrike and there are many many others now on the leftmost side of this chart is really interesting we showed the full stack interconnects here we're referring to the direct cloud to cloud connections in functions up and down the entire stack examples here are AWS VMware yes that hybrid but also emerging at the edge and Microsoft and Oracle so the bottom line is we're seeing a battle brewing between the big companies with larger appetites gobbling up major portions of the market with integrated suites that are playing out within each layer of the stack competing with smaller and nimble players that are delivering best to breed function along those stack layers all right let me summarize so here are the questions that I said I would answer let's see how I did what the heck is multi cloud well let me first say it feels like everything in IT is additive what do I mean by that well we never get rid of stuff you keep things forever think about it the typical enterprise has multiple data centers they get many SAS providers more likely they have you know more than one Iast provider and they're starting to think about what should I do with the edge there is no standard for hybrid or multi cloud deployments you talk to 100 customers and you're gonna hear 120 or 150 or 300 different environments and several orders of magnitude of challenges that they face do we really need multi-cloud not an ideal world no we wouldn't need multi cloud but we talked about how we got here earlier how real is it how real is multi cloud now look companies use multiple clouds it's is it easy to do things across scope these clouds no so it's one of these problems that the industry is created that it can now make money fixing it's a vicious cycle I know but so goes the enterprise IT business what problems does it does multi-cloud solve and create look the goal of multi cloud should be that it creates more value than just the sum of the individual parts and that is clearly not happening yet in my opinion moving data around is a problem so ultimately the value comes from being able to bring cloud services to data that resides all over the place and as Bernard golden implied even with kubernetes the experience is far from seamless so we understand that technology created this problem and IT people processes and technology will be asked to clean up the crime scene as I often say it's a common story in enterprise tech we talked about how multi-cloud will evolve along a stack that it comprises specialists and big companies with very big appetites my opinion is that multi-cloud will evolve as a mishmash and vendor relationships the right tools for the right job the edge IT and OT tensions mergers and acquisitions these are gonna create even a bigger mess down the road we have well-funded companies that are exceedingly capable in this business and the leaders are gonna get their fair share cloud is a trillion-dollar market opportunity and there will not be in my opinion a winner-take-all and multi cloud so who wins like I've tried to lay out some of the leaders within different parts of the stack but there's way more to this story I do believe that the cloud players are well positioned why cuz they're they invented cloud EWS and others who followed right now Microsoft and Google are playing actively in that market but I definitely think AWS will I that space but I think VMware Red Hat IBM Cisco etc some of this from the respective positions of strength and I've sort of they have the added benefit of being cloud semi agnostic because generally they're not wed to a hyper scale cloud you know IBM as a cloud oracle as a cloud but it's on a hyper scale cloud and as always there's specialists that are gonna solve problems that are too small initially for the big whales to see so they get a leader lead bleed to market advantage but those opportunities can grow over time and allow these guys to reach escape velocity now so I'll say multi-cloud in and of itself is I believe an opportunity one that will be attacked from a position of strength within the stack and there are opportunities to be specialists up and down that stack the Akashi Corp alright this is Dave Volante for wiki bonds cube insights powered by ETR thanks for watching this breaking analysis and remember these episodes are available as podcasts you can check it out as you're driving your car wherever you listen to two podcasts you can connect with me at David Villante at Silicon angle calm or at D Volante on Twitter or please comment on my LinkedIn posts thanks for watching everyone we'll see you next time [Music]

live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back over 17,000 in attendance here for Cisco live 2020 in Barcelona ops 2 min and my co-host is Dave Volante and to help us to dig in to of course one of the most important topic of the day of course that security we're thrilled to have back a distinguished engineer Francisco one of our cube alumni TK kia nini TK thanks so much for joining us ideal man good good all right so TK it's 2020 it's a new decade we know the bad actors are still out there they're there the the question always is you know it used to be you know how do you keep ahead of them then I've here Dave say many times well you know it's not you know when it's it's not if it's when you know you probably already have been ok you know compromise before so it gives latest so you know what you're seeing out there what you're talking to customers about in this important space yeah it's it's kind of an innovation spiral you know we we innovate we make it harder for them and then they innovate they make it harder for us right and round and round we go that's been going on for for many years I think I think the most significant changes that have happened recently have to deal with not essentially their objectives but how they go about their objectives and Defenders topologies have changed greatly instead of just your standard Enterprise you now have you know hybrid multi cloud and all these new technologies so while while all that innovation happens you know they get a little clever and they find weaknesses and round and round we go so we talked a lot about the sort of changing profile of the the threat actors gone from hacktivists to criminals now is a huge business and nation-states even what's that profile looked like today and how has that changed over the last decade or so you know that's pretty much stayed the same you know bad guys are bad guys at some point in time you know just how how they go about their business their techniques they're having to like I said innovate around you know we make it harder for them they you know on Monday we're safe on Tuesday we're not you know and then on Wednesday it switches again so so it talked about kind of this multi-cloud environment when we talked to customers it's like well I want the developer to be able to build their application and not really have to think too much underneath it that that has to have some unique challenges we know security we knew long ago well I just go to the cloud it doesn't mean they take care of it some things are there some things they're gonna remind you now you need to make sure you set certain things otherwise you could be there but how do we make sure that Security's baked in everywhere and is up as a practice that everybody's doing well I mean again some of the practices hold true no matter what the environment I think the big thing was cognitive is in back in the day when when you looked at an old legacy data center you were apart sort of administrator in your part detective most people don't even know what's running on there that's not true in cloud native environments some some llamó file some some declaration it's it's just exactly what production should look like right and then the machines instantiate production so you're doing things that machine scale forces the human scale people to be explicit and and for me I mean that's that's a breath of fresh air because once you're explicit then you take the mystery out of what you're protecting how about in terms of how you detect threats right phishing for credentials has become a huge deal but not just you know kicking down the door or smashing a window yeah using your your own credentials to get inside of your network so how is that affected the way in which you detect yeah it's it's a big deal you know a lot of a lot of technology has a dual use and what I mean by that is network cryptology you know that that whole crypto on the network has made us safer for us to compute over unsecure networks and unfortunately it works just as well for the bad guys so you know all of their malicious activity is now private to so it you know for us we just have to invent new ways of detecting direct inspection for instance I think is a thing of the past I mean we just can't depend on it anymore we have to have tools of inference and not only that but it's it's gave rise in a lot of innovation on behavioral science and as you say you know it's it's not that the attacker is breaking into your network anymore they're logging in okay what do you do then right Alice Alice's account it's not gonna set off the triggers so you have to say you know when did Alice start to behave differently you know she's working in accounting why is she playing around with the source code repository that's that's a different thing right yeah automation is such a big trend you know how do we make sure that automation doesn't leave us more vulnerable that's rarity because we need to be able automate we've gone beyond human scale for most of these configurations that's exactly right and and how do how do we I always say just with security automation in particular just because you can automate something doesn't mean you should and and you really have to go back and have practices you know you could argue that that this thing is just a you know machine scale automation you could do math on a legal pad or you can use a computer to do it right what so apply that to production if you mechanized something like order entry or whatever you're you're you're automating part of your business use threat modeling you use the standard threat modeling like you would your code the network is code now right and storage is code and everything is code so you know just automate your testing do your threat modeling do all that stuff please do not automate for your attacker matrix is here I want to go back to the Alice problem because you're talking about before you have to use inference so Alice's is in the network and you're observing her moves every day and then okay something anomalous occurs maybe she's doing something that normally she wouldn't do so you've got to have her profile in her actions sort of observed documented stored the data has got to be there and at the same time you want to make sure it's always that balance of putting handcuffs on people and you know versus allowing them to you know do their job and be productive at the same time as well you don't want to let the bad guys know that you know that alice is doing something that she didn't be doing is actually not Alice so all that complexity how are you dealing with it and what's the data model look like doing it machines help let's say that machines can help us you know you and I we have only so many sense organs and the cognitive brain can only store so many so much state machines really help us extend that and so you know looking at not three dimensions of change but 7000 dimensions have changed right something in the machine is going to say there's an outlier here that's interesting and you can get another machine to say that's that's interesting maybe I should focus on that you build these analytical pipelines so that at the end of it you know they may argue with each other all the way to the end but at the end you have a very high fidelity indicator that might be at the protocol level it might be at the behavioral level it might be seven days back or thirty days back all these temporal and spatial dimensions it's really cheap to do it with a machine yeah and if we could stay on that for a second so it I've tried to understand I know that's a high level example but is it best practice to have the Machine take action or is it is it an augmentation and I know it depends on the use case but but how is that sort of playing out again you have to do all of this safely okay a lot of things that machines do don't return back to human scale stuff that returns back to human scale that humans understand that is as useful so for instance if machines you know find out all these types of in assertions even in medical you know right now if if you've got so much telemetry going into the medical field say the machine tells you you have three weeks to live I mean you better explain what the heck you know how you came about that assertion it's the same with security you know if I'm gonna say look we're gonna quarantine your machine or we're gonna reimage this machine it's not I'm not like picking movies for you or the next song you might listen to this is high stakes and so when you do things like that your analytics needs to have what it's called entailment you have to explain what it is how you got to that assertion that's become incredibly important in how we measure our effectiveness in in doing analytics that's interesting because because you're using a lot of machine intelligence to do this and a lot of AI is blackbox you're saying you cannot endure that blackbox problem in security yeah that black box is is is very dangerous you know I you know personally I feel that you know things that should be open sourced this type of technology it's so advanced that the developer needs to understand that the tester needs to understand that certainly the customer needs to understand it you need to publish papers and be very very transparent with this domain because if it is in fact you know black box and it's given the authority to automate something like you know shut down the power or do things like that that's when things really start to get dangerous so good TK what wonder you know give us the latest on stealthWatch there you know Cisco's positioning when it when it comes to everything we've been talking about here you know stealthWatch again is it's been in market for quite some time it's actually been in market since 2001 and when I when I look back and see how much has changed you know how we've had to keep up with the market and again it's not just the algorithms rewrite for detection it's the environments have changed right but when did when did multi-cloud happen so so operating again cusp it's not that stealthWatch wants to go their customers are going there and they want the stealthWatch function across their digital business and so you know we've had to make advancements on the changing topology we've had to make advancements because of things like dark data you know the the network's opaque now right we have to have a lot of inference so we've just you know kept up and stayed ahead of it you know we've been spending a lot of time talking to developer communities and there's a lot of open-source tooling out there that that's helping enable developers specifically in security space you were talking about open-source earlier how does what you've been doing the stealthWatch intersect with that yeah that's always interesting too because there's been sort of a shift in in let's call them the cool kids right the cool kids um they want everything is code right so it's not about what's on glass or you know a single pane of glass anymore it's it's what stealth watches code right what's your router as code look at definitely definite is basically Cisco as code and it's beautiful because that is infrastructure as code I mean that is the future and so all the products not just stealthWatch have beautiful api's and that's that's really exciting I've been saying for a while now it's do you I think you agree is that that is a big differentiator for Cisco I think you you're one of the few if not the only large established player and the enterprise that has figured out that sort of infrastructure is code play others have tried and are sort of getting there but start-stop you use a term that really cool is like living off the land you know bear bear grylls like the guy who lives off the land so and and and threat actors are doing that now they're using your own installed software and tooling to hack you and steal from you how were you dealing with that problem yeah it's a tough one and like I said you know much respect the the adversary is talented and they're patient they're well funded okay that's that's where it starts and so you know why why bring why bring an interpreter to a host when there's already one there right why right all this complicated software distribution when I can just use yours and so that's that's where the play the game starts and and the most advanced threats aren't leaving footprints because the footprints are already there you know they'll get on a machine and behaviorally they'll check the cache to see what's hot and what's hot in the cache means that behaviorally it's a path they can go they're not cutting a new trail most of the time right so living off the land is not only the tools that they're using the automation your automation they're using against you but it's also behavioral and so that that makes it you know it makes it harder it's it impossible no can we make it harder for them yes so yeah I'm having fun and I've been doing this for over twenty five years every week it's something new well it's a hard problem you're attacking and you know Robert Herjavec who came of the cube sort of opened my eyes and you think about what are we securing we're securing everything I mean a critical infrastructure were essentially assured securing the entire global economy and he said something that really struck me since there's an 86 trillion dollar economy we spend point zero one four percent on securing that economy and that's nothing now of course he's an entrepreneur and he's pimping for his his business but it's true we are barely scratching the surface of this problem yeah and it's changing I mean it's changing it could it be better yes it is changing his board awareness well you know 20 years ago they then write me to a dinner party they you know what does your husband do I'd say you know cyber security or something they'd roll their eyes and change the subject now they asked me the same question so oh you know my computer's running really slow right these are not this is everyone I'm worried about a life hack yeah how do I protect myself or what about these company us the bank I mean that's guys a dinner table company every party so now now you know I just make something up I don't do cybersecurity I just I you know a tort or a jipner's you've been in this business forever I can't remember have I ever asked you the superhero question what is that your favorite superhero that's a tough one there's all the security guys I know they like always dreamed about saving the world [Laughter] you're my superhero man I love what you do I think you're a great asset for Cisco and Cisco's customers really Thanks TK give us a final word if people want to you know find out more about about what Cisco's doing read more what you're working on what's some of the best resources I have to go to do you know just drop by the web pages I mean everything's published out that like I said even even for the super nerdy you know we publish all our our lars security analytics papers I think we're over 50 papers published in the last 12 years TK thank you so much always a pleasure to catch it all right yeah I think they've traveled thank you so much for de Villante um Stu Mittleman John Fourier is also in the house we will be back with lots more coverage here from Cisco live 20/20 in Barcelona thanks for watching the keys

[Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you [Music] [Applause] [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners come back this is the cubes coverage of Cisco live 2020 here in Barcelona doing about three and a half days of wall-to-wall coverage here I'm Stu minim and my co-host for this segment is Dave Volante John furs also here scouring the floor and really happy to welcome to the program to first-time guests I believe so Ron Daris is the product manager of product marketing for cloud computing with Cisco and sitting to his left is Matt Ferguson who's director of product development also with the Cisco cloud group Dave and I are from Boston Matt is also from the Boston area yes and Costas is coming over from London so thanks so much for joining us thanks IBPS all right so obviously cloud computing something we've been talking about many years we've really found fascinating the relationship Cisco's had with its customers as well as through the partner ecosystem had many good discussions about some of the announcements this week maybe start a little bit you know Cisco's software journey and you know positioning in this cloud space right now yes oh so it's a it's a really interesting dynamic when we start transitioning to multi cloud and we actually deal with cloud and compute coming together and we've had whether you're looking at the infrastructure ops organization or whether you're looking at the apps operations or whether you're looking at you know your dev environment your security operations each organization has to deal with their angle at which they view you know multi cloud or they view how they actually operate within those the cloud computing context and so whether you're on the infrastructure side you're looking at compute you're looking at storage you're looking at resources if you're an app operator you're looking at performance you're looking at visibility assurance if you are in the security operations you're looking at maybe governance you're looking at policy and then when you're a developer you really sort of thinking about CI CD you're talking about agility and there's very few organizations like Cisco that actually is looking at from a product perspective all those various angles of multi-cloud yeah definitely a lot of piece of cost us maybe up level it for us a little bit there's there's so many pieces you know we talked for so long you know you don't talk to any company that doesn't have a cloud strategy doesn't mean that it's not going to change over time and it means every company's got at home positioning but talk about the relationship cisco has with its customer and really the advisory position that you want to have with them it's actually a very relevant question to what to what Matt is talking about because we talk a lot about multi cloud as a trend and hybrid clouds and this kind of relationship between the traditional view of looking at computing data centers and then expanding to different clouds you know public cloud providers have now amazing platform capabilities and if you think about it the the it goes back to what Matt said about IT ops and the development kind of efforts why is this happening really you know there's there's the study that we did with with an analyst and there was an amazing a shocking stat around how within the next three years organizations will have to support 50% more applications than they do now and we have been trying to test this stat our events that made customer meetings etc that is a lot of a lot of change for organizations so if you think about why are they use why do they need to basically what go and expand to those clouds is because they want to service IT Ops teams want ER servers with capabilities their developers faster right and this is where you have within the IT ops kind of theme organization you have the security kind of frame the compute frame the networking where you know Cisco has a traditional footprint how do you blend all this how do you bring all this together in a linear way to support individual unique application modernization efforts I think that's what are we hearing from customers in terms of the feedback and this is what influences our strategy to converts the different business units and engineering engineering efforts right couple years ago I have to admit I was kind of a multi cloud skeptic I always said I thought it was more of a symptom than actually a strategy a symptom of you know shadow IT and different workloads and so forth but now I'm kind of buying in because I think IT in particular has been brought in to clean up the crime scene I often say so I think it is becoming a strategy so if you could help us understand what you're hearing from customers in terms of their strategy toward the multi cloud and how Cisco that was mapping into that yeah so so when we talk to customers it comes back to the angle at which they're approaching the problem in like you said the shadow IT has been probably around for longer than anybody won't cares to admit because the people want to move faster organizations want to get their product out to market sooner and and so what what really is we're having conversations now about you know how do I get the visibility how do I get you know the policies and the governance so that I can actually understand either how much I'm spending in the cloud or whether I'm getting the actual performance that I'm looking for that I need the connectivity so I get the bandwidth and so these are the kinds of conversations that we have with customers is is is going I realize that this is going on now I actually have to now put some you know governance and controls around that is their products is their solutions is their you know they're looking to Cisco to help them through this journey because it is a journey because as much as we talk about cloud and you know companies that were born in the cloud cloud native there is a tremendous number of IT organizations that are just starting that journey that are just entering into this phase where they have to solve these problems yeah I agree and it's just starting the journey with a deliberate strategy as opposed to okay we got this this thing but if you think about the competitive landscape its kind of interesting and I want to try to understand where Cisco fits because again you you initially had companies that didn't know in a public cloud sort of pushing multi cloud and you'd say oh well okay so they have to do that but now you see anthos come out with Google you see Microsoft leaning in we think eventually AWS is going to lean in and then you say I'm kind of interested in working with someone whose cloud agnostic not trying to force now now Cisco a few years ago you didn't really think about Cisco as a player now so this goes right in the middle I have said often that Cisco's in a great position John Fourier as well to connect businesses and from a source of networking strength making a strong argument that we have the most cost-effective most secure highest performance network to connect clouds that seems to be a pretty fundamental strength of yours and does that essentially summarize your strategy and and how does that map into the actions that you're taking in terms of products and services that you're bringing to market I would say that I can I can I can take that ya know it's a chewy question for hours yeah so I I was thinking about a satellite in you mentioned this before and you're like okay that's you know the world is turning around completely because we we seem to talk about satellite e is something bad happening and now suddenly we completely forgot about it like let let free free up the developers gonna let them do whatever they want and basically that is what I think is happening out there in the market so all the solutions you mentioned in the go to market approaches and the architectures that the public cloud providers at least are offering out there certainly the big three have differences have their strengths and I think those strengths are closer to the developer environment basically you know if you're looking into something like a IML there's one provider that you go with if you're looking for a mobile development framework you're gonna go somewhere else if you're looking for a dr you're gonna go somewhere else maybe not a big cloud but your service provider that you've been dealing with all these all these times and you know that they have their accreditation that you're looking for so where does Cisco come in you know we're not a public cloud provider we offer products as a service from our data centers and our partners data centers but at the - at the way that the industry sees a cloud provider a public cloud like AWS a sure Google Oracle IBM etc we're not that we don't do that our mission is to enable organizations with software hardware products SAS products to be able to facilitate their connectivity security visibility observability and in doing business and in leveraging the best benefits from those clouds so we we kind of we kind of moved to a point where we flip around the question and the first question is who is your cloud provider what how many tell us the clouds you work with and we can give you the modular pieces you can put we can put together for you so there's so that you can make the best out of your plan it's been being able to do that across clouds we're in an environment that is consistent with policies that are consistent that represent the edicts of your organization no matter where your data lives that's sort of the the vision in the way this is translated into products into Cisco's product you naturally think about Cisco as the connectivity provider networking that's that's really sort of our you know go to in what we're also when we have a significant computing portfolio as well so connectivity is not only the connectivity of the actual wire between geographies point A to point B in the natural routing and switching world there's connectivity between applications between cute and so this week you know the announcements were significant in that space when you talk about the compute and the cloud coming together on a single platform that gives you not only the ability to look at your applications from a experience journey map so you can actually know where the problems might occur in the application domain you can actually then go that next level down into the infrastructure level and you can say okay maybe I'm running out of some sort of resource whether it's compute resource whether it's memory whether it's on your private cloud that you have enabled on Prem or whether it's in the public cloud that you have that application residing and then why candidly you have the actual hardware itself so inter-site it has an ability to control that entire stack so you can have that visibility all the way down to the hardware layer I'm glad you brought up some of the applications wonderful we can you know stay there for a moment and talk about some of the changing patterns for customers a lot of talk in the industry about cloud native often it gets conflated with you know microservices containerization and lots of the individual pieces there but you know one of our favorite things that been talked about this week is the software that really sits at the application layer and how that connects down through some of the infrastructure pieces so help us understand what you're hearing from customers and and where how you're helping them through this transition to constants as you were saying absolutely there's going to be lots of new applications more applications and they still have the the old stuff that they need to continue to manage because we know an IT nothing ever goes away that's that's definitely true I was I was thinking you know there's there's a vacuum at the moment and and there's things that Cisco is doing from from technology leadership perspective to fill that gap between the application what do you see when it comes to monitoring making sure your services are observable and how does that fit within the infrastructure stack you know everything upwards network the network layer base again that is changing dramatically some of the things that Matt touched upon with regards to you know being able to connect the the networking the security in the infrastructure the computer infrastructure that the developers basically are deploying on top so there's a lot of there's a lot of things on containerization there's a lot of in fact it's you know one part of the of the self-injure side of the stack that you mentioned and one of the big announcements you know that there's a lot of discussion in the industry around ok how does that abstract further the conversation on networking for example because that now what we're seeing is that you have huge monoliths enterprise applications that are being carved down into micro services ok they you know there's a big misunderstanding around what is cloud native is it related to containers different kind of things right but containers are naturally the infrastructure de facto currency for developers to deploy because of many many benefits but then what happens you know between the kubernetes layer which seems to be the standard and the application who's gonna be managing services talking to each other that are multiplying you know things like service mesh network service mess how is the network evolving to be able to create this immutable infrastructure for developers to deploy applications so there's so many things happening at the same time where cisco has actually a lot of taking a lot of the front seat this is where it gets really interesting you know it's sort of hard to squint through because you mentioned kubernetes is the de facto standard but it's a de-facto standard that's open everybody's playing with but historically this industry has been defined by you know a leader who comes out with a de facto standard kubernetes not a company right it's an open standard and so but there's so many other components than containers and so history would suggest that there's going to be another de facto standard or multiple standards that emerge and your point earlier is you you got to have the full stack you can't just do networking you can't just do certain few so you guys are attacking that whole pie so how do you think this thing will evolve I mean you guys are obviously intend to put out as Casta as wide a net as possible capture not only your existing install base but attractive attract others and you're going aggressively at it as are as are others how do you see it shaking out deep do you see you know four or five pockets do you see you know one leader emerging I mean customers would love all you guys to get together come up with standards that's not going to happen so we're it's jump ball right now well yeah and you think about you know to your point regarding kubernetes is not a company right it is it is a community driven I mean it was open source by a large company but it's but it's community driven now and that's the pace at which open source is sort of evolving there is so much coming at IT organizations from a new paradigm a new software something that's you know the new the shiny object that sort of everybody sort of has to jump on to and sort of say that is the way we're going to function so IT organizations have to struggle with this influx of just every coming at them and every angle and I think what's starting to happen is the management and the you know that stack who controls that or who is helping IT organizations to manage it for them so really what we're trying to say is there's elements that you have to put together that have to function and kubernetes is just one example docker the operating system that associated with it that runs all that stuff then you have the application that goes rides IDEs on top of it so now what we have to have is things like what we just announced this week HX ap the application platform for HX so you have the compute cluster but then you have the on top of that that's managed by an organization that's looking at the security that's looking at the the actual making opinions about what should go in the stock and managing that for you so you don't have to deal with that because you can just focus on the application development yeah I mean Cisco's in a strong position to do there's no question about it and to me it comes down to execution if you guys execute and deliver on the the products and services that you say you know your nouns for instance this week and previously and you continue on a roadmap you're gonna get a fair share of this marketplace I think there's no question so last topic before we let you go is love your viewpoint on customers what's separating kind of leaders from you know the followers in this space you know there's so much data out there you know I'm a big fan of the state of DevOps report yeah focus you know separate you know some but not the not here's the technology or the piece but the organizational and you know dynamics that you should do so it sounds like Matt you you like that that report also love them what are you hearing from customers how do you help guide them towards becoming leaders in the cloud space yeah the state of DevOps report was fascinating and I mean they've been doing that for what a number of years yeah exactly and really what it's sort of highlighting is two main factors that I think that are in this revolution or this this this paradigm shift or journey we're going through there's the technology side for sure and so that's getting more complex you have micro services you have application explosion you have a lot of things that are occurring just in technology that you're trying to keep up but then it's really about the human aspect that human elements the people about it and that's really I think what separates you know the the elites that are really sort of you know just charging forward in the head because they've been able to sort of break down the silos because really what you're talking about in cloud native DevOps is how you take the journey of that experience of the service from end to end from the development all the way to production and how do you actually sort of not have organizations that look at their domain their data set their operations and then have to translate that or have to sort of you know have another conversation with another organization that it doesn't look at that that has no experience of that so that is what we're talking about that end-to-end view is that in addition to all the things we've been talking about I think Security's a linchpin here now you guys are executing on security you got a big portfolio and you've seen a lot of M&A and a lot of companies now trying to get in and it's gonna be interesting to see how that plays out but that's going to be a key because organizations are going to start there from a strategy standpoint and then build out yeah absolutely if you follow the DevOps methodology its security gets baked in along the way so that you're not having to sit on after do anything Custis give you the final word I was just as follow-up with regard what what Mark was saying there's so many there's what's happening out there is this just democracy around standards which is driven by communities and we will love that in fact cisco is involved in many open-source community projects but you asked about customers and and just right before you were asking about you know who's gonna be the winner there's so many use cases there's so much depth in terms of you know what customers want to do with on top of kubernetes you know take AI ml for example something that we have we have some some offering the services around there's the customer that wants to do AML there their containers that their infrastructure will be so much different to someone else's doing something just hosting yeah and there's always gonna be a SAS provider that is niche servicing some oil and gas company you know which means that the company of that industry will go and follow that instead of just going to a public law provider that is more organized if there's a does that make sense yeah yeah this there's relationships that exist the archer is gonna get blown away that add value today and they're not gonna just throw them out so exactly right well thank you so much for helping us understand the updates where your customers are driving super exciting space look forward to keeping an eye on it thank you thank you so much all right there's still lots more coming here from Cisco live 20/20 in Barcelona people are standing watching all the developer events lots of going on the floor and we still have more so thank you for watching the cute [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back over 17,000 in attendance here for Cisco live 2020 in Barcelona ops to Minh and my co-host is Dave Volante and to help us to dig into of course one of the most important topic of the day of course that security we're thrilled to have back a distinguished engineer Francisco one of our cube alumni TK Kia Nene TK thanks so much for joining us ideal man good good all right so TK it's 2020 it's a new decade we know the bad actors are still out there they're there the the question always is you know it used to be you know how do you keep ahead of them then I've here Dave say many times well you know it's not you know when it's it's not if it's when you know you probably already have been okay you know compromised before so it gives latest so you know what you're seeing out there what you're talking to customers about in this important space yeah it's uh it's kind of an innovation spiral you know we we innovate we make it harder for them and then they innovate they make it harder for us right and round and round we go that's been going on for for many years I think I think the most significant changes that have happened recently have to deal with not essentially their objectives but how they go about their objectives and Defenders topologies have changed greatly instead of just your standard enterprise you now have you know hybrid multi cloud and all these new technologies so while while all that innovation happens you know they get a little clever and they find weaknesses and round and round we go so we talked a lot about the sort of changing profile of the the threat actors going from hacktivists took criminals now is a huge business and nation-states even what's that profile look like today and how has that changed over the last decade or so you know that's pretty much stayed the same bad guys are bad guys at some point in time you know just how how they go about their business their techniques they're having to like I said innovate around you know we make it harder for them they you know on Monday we're safe on Tuesday we're not you know and then on Wednesday it switches again so so it talked about kind of this multi-cloud environment when we talk to customers it's like well I want the developer to be able to build their application and not really have to think too much underneath it that that has to have some unique challenges we know security we knew long ago well I just go to the cloud it doesn't mean they take care of it some things are there some things they're gonna remind you now you need to make sure you set certain things otherwise you could be there but how do we make sure that Security's baked in everywhere and is up as a practice that everybody's doing well I mean again some of the practices hold true no matter what the environment I think the big thing was cognitive is in back in the day when when you looked at an old legacy data center you were part sort of administrator in your part detective and most people don't even know what's running on there that's not true in cloud native environments some some llamó file some some declaration it's it's just exactly what productions should look like right and then the machines instantiate production so you're doing things that machine scale forces the human scale people to be explicit and and for me I mean that's that's a breath of fresh air because once you're explicit then you take the mystery out of what you're protecting how about in terms of how you detect threats right phishing for credentials has become a huge deal but not just you know kicking down the door or smashing a window using your your own credentials to get inside of your network so how is that affected the way in which you detect yeah it's it's a big deal you know a lot of a lot of great technology has a dual use and what I mean by that is network cryptology you know that that whole crypto on the network has made us safer for us to compute over insecure networks and unfortunately it works just as well for the bad guys so you know all of their malicious activity is now private to so it you know for us we just have to invent new ways of detecting direct inspection for instance I think it's a thing of the past I mean we just can't depend on it anymore we have to have tools of inference and not only that but it's it's gave rise in a lot of innovation on behavioral science and as you say you know it's it's not that the attacker is breaking into your network anymore they're logging in ok what do you do then right Alice Alice's account it's not gonna set off the triggers so you have to say you know when did Alice start to behave differently you know she's working in accounting why is she playing around with the source code repository that's that's a different thing right yes automation is such a big trend you know how do we make sure that automation doesn't leave us more vulnerable that's rarity because we need to be able automate we've gone beyond human scale for most of these configurations that's exactly right and and how do how do we I always say just with security automation in particular just because you can automate something doesn't mean you should and you really have to go back and have practices you know you could argue that that this thing is just a you know machine scale automation you could do math on a legal pad or you can use a computer to do it right what so apply that to production if you mechanized something like order entry or whatever you're you're you're automating part of your business use threat modeling you use the standard threaten modeling like you would your code the network is code now right and the storage is code and everything is code so you know just automate your testing do your threat modeling do all that stuff please do not automate for your attacker matrix is here I want to go back to the Alice problem because you're talking about before you have to use inference so Alice's is in the network and you're observing her moves every day and then okay something anomalous occurs maybe she's doing something that normally she wouldn't do so you've got to have her profile in her actions sort of observed documented stored the data has got to be there and at the same time you want to make sure it's always that balance of putting handcuffs on people you know versus allowing them to do their job and be productive at the same time as well you don't want to let the bad guys know that you know that alice is doing something that she didn't be doing is actually not Alice so all that complexity how are you dealing with it and what's the data model look like doing it machines help let's say that machines can help us you know you and I we have only so many sense organs and the cognitive brain can only store so many so much state machines really help us extend that and so you know looking at not three dimensions of change but 7000 dimensions have changed right something in the machine is going to say there's an outlier here that's interesting and you can get another machine to say that's that's interesting maybe I should focus on that and you build these analytical pipelines so that at the end of it you know they may argue with each other all the way to the end but at the end you have a very high fidelity indicator that might be at the protocol level it might be at the behavioral level it might be seven days back or thirty days back all these temporal and spatial dimensions it's really cheap to do it with a machine yeah and if we could stay on that for a second so it try to understand I know that's a high-level example but is it best practice to have the Machine take action or is it is it an augmentation and I know it depends on the use case but but how is that sort of playing out again you have to do all of this safely okay a lot of things that machines do don't return back to human scale stuff that returns back to human scale that humans understand that is as useful so for instance if machines you know find out all these types of in assertions even in medical you know right now if if you've got so much telemetry going into the medical field see the machine tells you you have three weeks to live I mean you better explain what the heck you know how you came about that assertion it's the same with security you know if I'm gonna say look we're gonna quarantine your machine or we're gonna readjust machine it's not I'm not like picking movies for you or the next song you might listen to this is high stakes and so when you do things like that your analytics needs to have what is called entailment you have to explain what it is how you got to that assertion that's become incredibly important in how we measure our effectiveness in in doing analytics that's interesting because because you're using a lot of machine intelligence to do this and in a lot of AI is blackbox you're saying you cannot endure that blackbox problem in security yeah that black boxes is is very dangerous you know I you know personally I feel that you know things that should be open sourced this type of technology it's so advanced that the developer needs to understand that the tester needs to understand that certainly the customer needs to understand it you need to publish papers and be very very transparent with this domain because if it is in fact you know black box and it's given the authority to automate something like you know shut down the power or do things like that that's when things really start to get dangerous so good TK what wondered you know give us the latest on stealthWatch there you know Cisco's positioning when it when it comes to everything we've been talking about here you know stealthWatch again is it's been in market for quite some time it's actually been in market since 2001 and when I when I look back and see how much has changed you know how we've had to keep up with the market and again it's not just the algorithms rewrite for detection it's the environments have changed right but when did when did multi-cloud happen so so operating again cusp it's not that stealthWatch wants to go their customers are going there and they want the stealthWatch function across their digital business and so you know we've had to make advancements on the changing topology we've had to make advancements because of things like dark data you know the the network's opaque now right we have to have a lot of inference so we've just you know kept up and stayed ahead of it you know we've been spending a lot of time talking to developer communities and there's a lot of open-source tooling out there that that's helping enable developers specifically in security space you were talking about open-source earlier how does what you've been doing the self watch intersect with that yeah that's always interesting too because there's been sort of a shift in let's call them the cool kids right the cool kids they want everything is code right so it's not about what's on glass or you know a single pane of glass anymore it's it's what stealth watches code right what's your router as code look at dev net right yeah yeah I mean definite is basically Cisco as code and it's beautiful because that is infrastructure as code I mean that is the future and so all the products not just stealthWatch have beautiful api's and that's that's really exciting I've been saying for a while now it's do you I think you agree is that that is a big differentiator for Cisco I think you you're one of the few if not the only large established player and the enterprise that has figured out that sort of infrastructure is code play others have tried and are sort of getting there but you know start/stop you use a term that really cool is like living off the land you know bear bear grylls like the guy who lives down so bad so and and and threat actors are doing that now they're using your own installed software and tooling to hack you and and steal from you how were you dealing with that problem yeah it's a tough one and like I said you know much respect the the adversary is talented and they're patient they're well funded okay that's that's where it starts and so you know why why bring why bring an interpreter to a host when there's already one there right why right all this complicated software distribution when I can just use yours and so that's that's where the the play the game starts and and the most advanced threats aren't leaving footprints because the footprints are already there you know they'll get on a machine and behaviorally they'll check the cache to see what's hot and what's hot in the cache means that behaviorally it's a path they can go they're not cutting a new trail most of the time right so living off the land is not only the tools that they're using the automation your automation they're using against you but it's also behavioral and so that that makes it you know it makes it harder it's it impossible no can we make it harder for them yes so yeah no I'm having fun and I've been doing this for over twenty five years every week it's something new well it's a hard problem you're attacking and you know Robert Herjavec who came on the cube sort of opened my eyes and you think about what are we securing we're securing everything I mean a critical infrastructure were essentially exerted securing the entire global economy and he said something that really struck me it's an 86 trillion dollar economy we spend point zero one four percent on securing that economy and it's nothing now of course he's an entrepreneur and he's pimping for his is his business but it's true we are barely scratching the surface of this problem yeah I'm and it's changing I mean it's changing it could it be better yes it is changing his board awareness you know twenty years ago then right me to a dinner party they you know what does your husband do I'd say you know cyber security or something they'd roll their eyes and change the subject now they asked me the same question so oh you know my computer's running really slow right these are not this is everyone I'm worried about a life hack yeah how do I protect myself or what about these coming off the bank I mean that's those guys a dinner table cover every party so now now you know I just make something up I don't do cybersecurity I just you know a tort or a jipner's you've been to this business forever I can't remember have I ever asked you the superhero question what is that your favorite superhero that's a tough one there's all the security guys I know they like it's always dreamed about saving the world [Laughter] you're my superhero man I love what you do I think you've a great asset for Cisco and Cisco's customers really thanks TK give us a final word if people want to you know find out more about about what Cisco's doing read more of what you're working on but what's some of the best resource I have to go do you know just drop by the web pages I mean everything's published out that like I said even even for the super nerdy you know we published all our our laurs security analytics papers I think we're over 50 papers published in the last 12 years TK thank you so much always a pleasure to catch alright yeah and a travels thank you so much for de Villante I'm Stu Mittleman John furrier is also in the house we will be back with lots more coverage here from Cisco live 20/20 in Barcelona thanks for watching the keys [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020s brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners hello and welcome back to the cubes live coverage it's our fourth day of four days of coverage here in Barcelona Spain for Cisco live 2020 I'm John Faria my co-host to many men to great guests here in the dev net studio where the cube is sitting all week long been packed with action mindy Whaley senior director developer experiences but dev net and partner a senior director welcome back to this cube good to see you guys glad to be here so we've had a lot of history with you guys what from day one yes watching def net from an idea of hey we should develop earthing you also have definite create yes separate more developer focused definite is Cisco's developer environment we've been here from the beginning what a progression congratulations on the success thank you thank you so much it's great to be here in Barcelona with everybody here you know learning in the workshops and we just love these times to connect with our community at Cisco live and it definitely ate what you mentioned which is coming up in March so it's right around the corner def net zone which we're in it's been really robust spins it's been the top of the show every year and it gets bigger and the sessions are packed because people are learning developers new developers as well as Cisco engineers who were certified coming in getting new skills as the modern cloud hybrid environments are new skills is a technology shift yeah exactly and what we have in the definite zone are different ways that the engineers and developers can engage with that technology shift so we have demos around IOT and security and showing how you know to prevent threats from attacking the Industrial routers and things like that we have coding workshops from you know beginning intro to Python intro to get all the way up through advanced like kubernetes topics and things like that so people can really dive in with what they're looking for and this year we're really excited because we have the new definite certifications with those exams coming out right around the corner in February so a lot of people are here saying I'm ready to skill up for those exams I'm starting to dive into this topic well Susie we was on she's the chief of deaf net among other things and she said there's gonna be a definite 500 the first 500 certifications of deaf net are gonna be kind of like the Hall of Fame or you know the inaugural or founder certifications so can you explain what this it means it's not a definite certification badge it's a series of write different sir can you deeper in then yeah just like we have our you know existing network certifications which are so respected and loved around the world people get CCIE tattoos and things just like there's an associate and professional and expert level on the networking truck there's now a definite associate a definite professional and coming soon definite expert and then there's also specialist badges which help you add specific skills like data center automation IOT WebEx so it's a whole new set of certifications that are more focused on the software so there are about 80 80 % software skills 20 percent knowledge of networking and then how you really connect up and down the stock so these are new certifications not replacing anything all the same stuff they're new they're part of the same program they have the same rigor the same kind of tests they actually have ways to enter weave with the existing networking certifications because we want people to do both skill paths right to build this new IT team of the future and so it's a completely new set of exams the exams are gonna be available to take February 24th and you can start signing up now so with the definite 500 you know that's gonna be a special recognition for the first 500 people who get dead note certifications it'll be a lifetime achievement they'll always be in the definite 500 right and I've had people coming up and telling me you know I'm signed up for the first day I'm taking my exams on the first day I'm trying to get into them you and I only always want to be on the lift so I think we might be on them and what's really great is with the certifications we've heard from people in the zone that they've been coming and taking classes and learning these skills but they didn't have a specific way to map that to their career path to get rewarded at work you know to have that sort of progression and so with the certifications they really will have that and it's also really important for our partners and par is doing a lot of work with certifications and partners yeah definitely that would love to hear a little bit we've interviewed on the cube over the years some of the definite partners from a technology standpoint of course the the channels ecosystem hugely important to Cisco's business gives the update as to you know definite partnering as well as what will these certifications mean to both the technology and go to market partners yeah the wonderful thing about this is it really demonstrates Cisco's embracement of software and making sure that we're providing that common language for software developers and networkers to bring the two together and what we've found is that our partners are at different levels of maturity along that progression of program ability and this new definite specialization which is anchored in the individuals that are now certified at that partner allow them to demonstrate from a go-to-market standpoint from a recognition standpoint that as a practice they have these skills and look at the end of the day it's all about delivering what our customers need and our customers are asking us for significant help in automation digital transformation they're trying to drive new business outcomes and this this will provide that recognition on on who to partner with in the market it's so important I remember when Cisco helped a lot of the partner ecosystem build data center practices went from the silos and now embracing you've got the hardware the software we're talking multi cloud it's the practice that is needed today going forward to help customers with where they're going it really is and and another benefit that we're finding and talking to our partners is we're packaging this up and rolling it out is not only will it help them from a recognition standpoint from a practice standpoint and from a competitive differentiation standpoint but it'll also help them attract challenge I mean it's no secret there is a talent shortage right now if you talk to any CEO that's top of mind and how these partners are able to attract these new skills and attract smart people smart people like working on smart things right and so this has really been a big traction point for them as well it's also giving ways to really specifically train for new job roles so some of the ways that you can combine the new definite certifications with the network engineering certifications we've looked at it and said you know there's there's a role of Network automation developer that's a new role everyone we ask in one of our sessions who needs that person on their team so many customers partners raise their hands like we want the network Automation developer on our team and you can combine you know your CCNP Enterprise with a definite certification and build up the skills to be that Network automation developer certainly has been great buzz I got to get your guys thoughts because certainly it's for careers and you guys are betting on the the people and the people are betting on Cisco mm-hmm yes this is what's going on submit surety of Devin it almost it's like a pinch me moment for you guys because you continue to grow I got to ask you what are some of the cool things that you're showing here as you mature you still have the start here session which is intro to Python and other things pretty elementary and then there's more advanced things what are some of the new things that's going on yeah that you could share so some of the new things we've got going on and one of my favorites is the IOT insecurity demonstration there's a an industrial robot arm that's picking and placing things and you can see how it's connected to the network and then something goes wrong with that robot alarm and then you can actually show how you can use the software and security tools to see was there code trying to access you know something that that robot was it was using it's getting in the way of it working so you could detect threats and move forward on that we also have a whole automation journey that starts from modeling your network to testing to how you would deploy automation to a deep dive on telemetry and then ends with multi domain automation so really helping engineers like look at that whole progression that's been that's been really popular Park talked about the specialization which ones are more popular or entry-level which ones are people coming into getting certified first network engineering automation first or what's the yeah so we're so the program is going to roll out with three different levels one is a specialized level the second is an advanced level and then we'll look to that third level again they're anchored in the in the individual certs and so as we look for that entry level it's really all about automation right I mean some things you take for granted but you still need these new skills to be able to automate and scale and have repeatable scalable benefits from that this the second tier will be more cross-domain and that's where we're really thinking that an additional skill set is needed to deliver dashboard experience compliance experiences and then that next level again we'll anchor towards the expert level that's coming out but one thing I want to point out is in addition to just having the certified people on staff they also have to demonstrate that they have a practice around it so it's not just enough to say I've passed an exam as we work with them to roll out the practice and they earn the badge they're demonstrating that they have the full methodology in place so that it really there's a lot behind it that means we can't be in the 500 list then even if a 500 list I don't know that the cube would end up being specialized its advertising no seriously all fun it's all fun it's Cisco live in Europe is there a difference between European and USD seeing any differences in geographic talent you know in the first couple years we did it I think there was a bigger difference it felt like there were different topics that were very popular in the US slightly different in Europe last year and this year I feel like they have converged it's it's the same focus on DevOps automation security as a huge focus in both places and it also feels like the the interest and level of the people attending has also converged it's really similar congratulations been fun to watch the rise and success of Devon it continues to be strong how see in the hub here and the definite zone behind us pact sessions yes what's the biggest surprise for you guys in terms of things that you didn't expect or some of the success what's what's jumped out yeah I think you know one of the points that I want to make sure we also cover and it has been an added benefit we're hoping it would happen we just didn't realize it would happen this soon we're attracting new companies new partners so the specialization won't just be available for our traditional bars this is also available for our non resale and we are finding different companies accessing definite resources and learning these skills so that's been a really great benefit of Deb net overall definitely my favorite surprises are when I show up at the community events and I hear from someone I met last year what the what they went back and did and the change that they drove and they come in their company and I think we're seeing those across the board of people who start a grassroots movement take back some new ideas really create change and then they come back and we get to hear about that from them those are my favorite surprises and I tell you we've known for years how important the developer is but I think the timing on this has been perfect because it is no longer just oh the developer has some tools that they like in the corner the developer connected to the business and driving things forward exactly so perfect timing congratulations on this certification their thing that's been great is that our at Cisco itself we now have API is across the whole portfolio and up and down the stock so that's been a wonderful thing to see come together because it opens up possibilities for all these developers so Cisco's API first company we are building it guys everywhere we can and and that the community is is taking them and finding creative things to build it's been fun to watch you guys change Cisco but also impact customers has been great to watch far many thanks for coming up yeah games live coverage here in Barcelona for Cisco live 20/20 I'm John Ford Dave Dave Alon face to many men we right back with more after this short break [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners hello and welcome back to the cubes live coverage here at Cisco live 20/20 and partial into Spain I'm John first evening men cube coverage we've got a lot of stuff going on with Cisco multi-cloud and cloud technologies of clarification of Cisco's happening in real time is happening right now cloud is here here to stay we got two great guests to unpack what's going on in cloud native and networking and applications as the modern infrastructure and software evolves we got eugene kim global product marketing and compute storage at cisco global part of marketing manager and fabio corey senior director cloud solutions marketing guys great comeback great thanks for coming back appreciate it thanks very much great to see a lot of guys so probably we've had multiple conversations and usually even out from the sales force given kind of the that the discussion and the motivation cloud is big it's here it's here to stay it's changing Cisco API first we hear and all the products it's changing everything what's the story now what's going on I would say you know the reason why we're so excited about the launch here in Barcelona it's because this time it's all about the application experience I mean the last two years we've been announcing some really exciting stuff in the cloud space right think about all the announcements with the AWS the Google's the Azure so the world but this time it really boils down to making sure that is incredibly hyper distributed world well there is an application explosion ultimately we will help for the right operations tools and infrastructure management tools to ensure that the right application experience will be guaranteed for the end customer and that's incredibly important because at the end what really really matters is that you will ensure the best possible digital experience to your customer otherwise ultimately nothing is gonna work and of course you're going to lose your brand and your customers one of the main stories that we're covering is the transformation of the industry also Cisco and one of the highlights to me was the opening keynote you had app dynamics first not networking normally it's like what's under the hood the routers and the gear no it was about the applications this is the story we're seeing it's kind of a quiet unveiling it's not yet a launch but it's evolving very quickly can you share what's going on behind this all this absolutely it's exactly along the lines of what I was saying a second ago in the end that the reason why we're driving the announcement if you want from the application experience side of the house is because without dynamics we already have a very very powerful application performance measurement tool which it's evolving extremely rapidly first of all after Amex can correlate not just the application performance to some technology kpi's but to true actual business KPIs so AB dynamics can give you for instance the real-time visibility of say a marketing funnel conversion rates transactions that you're having in your in your business operation now we're introducing an incredibly powerful new capability that takes the bar to a whole new level and that's the dynamics experience journey Maps what are those it's actually the ability of focusing not so much on front-ends and backends and databases performances but really focusing on what the user is seeing in front of his or her screen and so what really matters is capturing the journey that a given user of your application is is being and understanding whether the experience is the one that you want to deliver oh you have like a sudden drop of somewhere and you know why that is important because in the end we've been talking about is it a problem of the application performance user performance well it could be a badly designed page how do you know and so this is a very precious information is that were giving to application developers not just to the IT ops guys that is incredibly precious to get this in so you just brought up that journey so that's part of the news so just break down real quick one minute yeah what the news is yeah so we have three components the first one as you as you correctly pointed out is really introduction the application journey Maps right the experience journey Maps that's very very important the second is we are actually integrating after am it's with the inter-site action inter-site optimization manager the workload team is a workload promisor and so because there is a change of data between the two now you are in a position to immediately understand whether you have an application problem we have a workload problem or infrastructure problem which is ultimate what you really need to do as quickly as you can and thirdly we have introduced a new version of our hyper flex platform which is hyper-converged flat G flat for Cisco with a fully containerized version we tax free if you want as well there is a great platform for containerized application of parameter so you teen when I've been talking to customers last few years when they go through their transformational journey there's the modernization they need to do the patterns I've seen most successful is first you modernize the platform often HCI is you know and often for that it really simplifies the environment you know reduces the silos and has more of that operational model that looks closer to what the cloud experience is and then if I've got a good platform then I can modernize the applications on top of it but often those two have been a little bit disconnected it feels like the announcements now that they are coming together what are you seeing what are you hearing how is your solution set solving this issue yeah exactly I mean as we've been talking to our customers love them are going through different application modernisations and kubernetes and containers is extremely important to them and to build a container cloud on Prem is extremely one of their needs and so there's three distinctive requirements that they've kind of talked to us about a lot of it has to be able to it's got to be very simple very turnkey and a fully integrated ready to turn on the other one is something that's very agile right very DevOps friendly and the third being a very economic container cloud on Prem as far we mentioned high flex application platform takes our hyper-converged system and builds on top of it a integrated kubernetes platform to deliver a container as a service type capability and it provides a full stack fully supported element platform for our customers and the one of the best great aspects of is that's all managed from inside from the physical infrastructure to the hyper-converged layer to all the way to the container management so it's very exciting to have that full stack management and insight as well yeah it's great to you know John and I have been following this kubernetes wave you know since the early early days Fabio mentioned integrations with the Amazons and Google's the world because you know a few years ago you talked to customers and they're like oh well I'm just gonna build my own urbanity right back nobody ever said that is easy now just delivering at his service seems to be the way most people wanted so if I'm doing it on Amazon or Google they've got their manage service that I could do that or that they're through partners they're working with so explain what you're doing to make it simpler in the data center environment because I'm tram absolutely is a piece of that hybrid equation the customers need yes so essentially from the customer experience perspective as I mentioned it's very fairly turnkey right from the hyper flicks application platform we're taking our hyper grew software we're integrating a application virtualization layer on top of it Linux KVM based and then on top of that we're integrating the kubernetes stack on top as well and so in essence right it's a fully curated kubernetes stack right it has all the different elements from the networking from the storage elements and and providing that in a very turnkey way and as I mentioned the inner site management is really providing that simplicity that customers need for that management ok Fabio this the previous announcement you've made with the public clouds yeah this just ties into those hybrid environments that's exactly you know a few years ago people like oh is there gonna be a distribution that wins in kubernetes we don't think that's the answer but still I can't just move between kubernetes you know seamlessly yet but this is moving towards that direction so a lot of customers want to have a very simple implementation at the same time they want of course a multi cloud approach and I really care about you know marking the difference between you know multi-cloud hybrid cloud there's been a lot of confusion but if you think about it multi cloud is really rooted into the business need of harnessing innovation from whatever it comes from you know the different clouds PV different things and you know what they do today tomorrow it could even change so people want option maladie so they want a very simple implementation that's integrated with public cloud providers that simplifies their life in terms of networking security and application of workload management and we've been executing towards that goal to fundamentally simplify the operations of these pretty complex kind of hybrid environments I want you to nail that operations on ibrid that's where multi cloud comes in absolutely just a connection point absolutely you're not a shitty mice no isn't a shit so in order to fulfill your business like your I know business needs you then you have a hybrid problem and you want to really kind of have a consistent production rate environment between fins on Prem that you own and control versus things that you use and you want to control better now of course there are different school of thoughts but most of the customers who are speaking with really want to expand their governance and technology model right to the cloud as opposed to absorb in different ways of doing things from each and every clock I want to unpack a little bit of what you said earlier about the knowing where the problem is because a lot of times it's a point the finger at the other first and where's it's the application problem isn't a problem so I want to get into that but first I want to understand the hyper flex application platform Eugene if you could just share the main problem that you guys saw what did some of the pain points that customers had what problems does the AP solve yeah as I mentioned it's really the platform for our customers to modernize their applications on right and it addresses those things that they're looking for as far as the economics right really the ability to provide a full stack container experience without having to you know but you know bringing any third party hypervisor licenses as well as support cost so that's fully integrated there you have your integrated hyper-converged storage capability you have the cloud-based management and that's really developing you providing that developer DevOps simplicity from the data Julie that they're looking for internally as well as for their product production environments and then the other aspect is its simplicity to be able to manage all this right in the entire lifecycle management as well so it's the operational side of the whole yeah uncovers Papio on the application side where the problem is because this is where I'm a little bit skeptical you know normally rightfully so but I can see in a problem where it's like whose fault is it gasification is problem or the network I mean it runs into more serious workloads the banking app that's having trouble how do you know where it what the problem is and how do you solve that problem what what's going on for that specific issue absolutely and you know the name of the game here is breaking down this operational side right and I love what our app dynamics VP GM Danny winoker said you know it has this terminology beast DevOps which you know may sound like an interesting acrobatics but it's absolutely true the business has to be part of this operational kind of innovation because as you said you know developer edges you know drops their containers and their code to the IET ops team but you don't really know whether the problem a certain point is gonna be in the code or in how the application is actually deployed or maybe a server that doesn't have enough CPU so in the end it boils down to one very important thing you have to have visibility inside and take action and every layer of the stack I mean instrumentation absolutely there are players that only do it in their software overlay domain the problem is very often these kind of players assume that underneath links are fine and very often they're not so in the end this visibility inside inaction is the loop that everybody is going after these days to really get to the next if you want generational operation where you gotta have a constant feedback loop and making it more faster and faster because in the end you can only win in the marketplace right regardless of your IT ops if you're faster than your competitor well still still was questioning the GM of AppDynamics running observability and he's like no it's not to feature it's everywhere so he his comment was yeah but serve abilities don't really talk about it because it's big din do you agree with that absolutely it has to be at every layer of the stack and only if you have visibility inside an action through the entire stack from the software all the way to the infrastructure level that you can solve the problem otherwise the finger-pointing quote-unquote will continue and you will not be able to gain the speed that you need okay so the question on my mind I want to get both of you guys can weigh in on this is that you look at Cisco as a company you got a lot going on I mean a guy's huge customer base core routers - no applications there's a lot going on a lot of a lot of complexity you got IOT security Ramirez talked about that you got the WebEx rooms got totally popular it's kind of got a lot of glam to it having the WebEx kind of you know I guess what virtual presence was yeah telepresence kind of model and then you get cloud is there a mind share within the company around how cloud is baked into everything because you can't do IOT edge without having some sort of cloud operational things so there's stuff you're talking about is not just a division it's kind of gonna it's kind of threads everywhere across Cisco what's the what's the mind share right now within the Cisco teams and also customers around clarification well I would say it's it's a couple of dimension the first one is the cloud is one of the critical domains of this multi domain architecture that of course is the cornerstone of Cisco's technology strategy right if you think about it it's all about connecting users to applications wherever they are and not just the user the applications themselves like if you look at the latest stats from IDC 58% of workloads is heading to the public cloud and to the edge it's like the data center is literally exploding in many different directions so you have this highly distributed kind of fabric guess what sits in between all these applications and microservices is a secure network and that's exactly what we're executing upon now that's the first kind of consideration the second is if you look at the other silver line most of the Cisco technology innovation is also going a direction of absorbing cloud as a simplified way of managing all the components or the infrastructure you look at the IP flex ap is actually managed by inter site which is a SAS kind of component this journey started a long time ago with Cisco Meraki and then of course we have SAS properties like WebEx everything else is kind of absolutely migrants reporter we've been reporting eugen that from years ago we saw the movement where api's are starting to come in when you go back five years ago not a lot of the gear and stuff at Cisco had api's now you got api's building into all the new products that's right you see the software shift with you know you know intent-based networking to AppDynamics it's interesting it's you're seeing kind of this agile mindset this is some of you and I talk about all the time but agile now is the new model is it ready for customers I mean the normal Enterprise is still got the infrastructure and application it's separated okay how do I bring it together what are you guys seeing the customer base what's going on with with not that not the early adopters heavy-duty hardcore pioneers out there but you know the the general mainstream enterprise are they there yet have they had that moment of awakening yeah I mean I think they they are there because fundamentally it's all about that ensuring that application experience and you can only ensure that application experience right by having your application teams and your structure teams work together and that's what's exciting you mentioned the API is and what we've done there with AppDynamics integrating with inter-site workload optimizer as Fabio mentioned it's all about visibility inside action and what app dynamics is provides providing that business and end-user application performance experience visibility inner sites giving you know visibility on the underlining workload and the resources whether it's on Prem in your you know drive data center environment or in different type of cloud providers so you get that full stack visibility right from the application all the way down to the bottom and then inner side local optimizer is then also optimizing the resources to proactively ensure that application experience so before you know if we talk about someone at a checkout and they're about to have abandonment because the functions not working we're able to proactively prevent that and take a look at all that so you know in the end I think it's all about ensuring that application experience and what we're providing with app dynamics is for the application team is kind of that horizontal visibility of how that application is performing and at the same time if there's an issue the infrastructure team could see exactly within the workload topology where the issue is and insert' aeneas lee whether it be manual intervention or even automatically there's or a ops capability go ahead and provide that action so the action could be you know scaling out the VMS it's on-prem or looking at a new different type of ec2 template in the cloud that's what's very exciting about this it's really the application experience is now driving and optimizing infrastructure in real time and let me flip your question like do you even have a choice John when you think about in the next two years 50% more applications if you're a large enterprise you have 5 to 7,000 apps you have another to 3,000 applications just coming into into the the frame and then 50% of the existing ones that are gonna be refactor lifted and shifted or replace or retired by SAS application it's just like it's tsunami that's that's coming on you and oh by the way because of again the micro service is kind of affect the number of dependencies between all these applications is growing incredibly rapidly like last year we were eight average interdependencies for applications now we are 20 so imaging imaging what happens as as you are literally flooded with the way the scanner really you have to ensure that your application infrastructure fundamentally will get tied up as quickly as you can still and I have been toilet for at least five years now if not longer the networking has been the key kind of last changeover - clarification and I would agree with you guys I think I've asked the question because I wanted to get your perspective but think about it it's 13 years since the iPhone so mobile has shown people that a mobile app can change business but now if you look at the pressure the network's bringing the pressure on the network or the pressure for the network to be better than programmable is the rise of video and data I mean so you got mobile check now you've got video I mean more people doing video now than ever before videos of consumer oil as streaming you got data these two things absolutely forced yeah the customers to deal with it but what really tipped the the balance John is is actually the SAS effect is the cloud effect because as you know it's in IT sort of inflection points nothing is linear right so once you reach a certain critical mass of cloud apps and we're absolutely there already all of a sudden you're traffic pattern on your network changes dramatically so why in the world are you continuing kind of you know concentrating all of your traffic in your data center and then going to the internet you have to absolutely open the floodgates at the branch level as close to the users as possible and that implies a radical change I would even add to that and I think you guys are right on where you guys are going it may be hard to kind of tease out with all the complexity with Cisco but in the keynote the business model shifts come from SAS so you got all this technical stuff going on now you have this Asif ocation or cloud that's changes the business models so new entrants can come in and existing players can get better so I think that whole business model conversation yeah never was discussed at Cisco live before yeah in depth as well hey run your business connect your hubs campus move packets around that was applications in business model yeah but also the fact that there is increasing number of software capabilities and so fundamental you want to simplify the life of your customers through subscription models that help the customer by now using what they really need right at any given point in time all the way to having enterprise agreements I also think that's about delivering these application experiences for your business small different type experience that's really what's differentiating you from your different competitors right and so I think that's a different type of shift as well well you guys are good got some good angle on this cloud I love it I got to ask you the question what can we expect next from Cisco more progression along clarification what's next well I would say we've been incredibly consistent I believe in the last few years in executing on our cloud strategy which again is centered around helping customers really gluon this mix set of data centers and clouds to make it work as one write as much as possible and so what we really deliver is networking security and application of performance management and we're integrating there's more and more on the two sides of the equation right the the designer side and the powerful outside and more more integrating in between all of these layers again to fundamentally give you this operational capability to get faster and faster we'll continue doing so and you set up before we came on camera that you were talking to the sales teams what are they what's their vibe with the sales team they get excited by this what's that oh yeah feedback oh yeah absolutely from the inner side were claw optimizer and they have dynamics that's very exciting for them especially the conversations they're having with their customers really from that application experience and proactively insuring it and on the hyper flex application platform side this is extremely exciting with providing a container cloud to our customers and you know what's coming down is more and more capabilities for our customers to modernize their applications on hyper flex you guys are riding some pretty big waves here at Cisco I get a cloud way to get the IOT Security wave it's pretty exciting pretty big stuff thanks for coming in thanks for sharing the insights Fabio I appreciate it thank you for having us your coverage here in Barcelona I'm John Force dude Minutemen be back with more coverage fourth day of four days of cube coverage we right back after this short break [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] why Trump Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back to Barcelona everybody we're here at Cisco live and you're watching the cube the leader in live tech coverage we got to the events and extract the signal from the noise this is day one really we started a zero yesterday Eric Hertzog is here he's the CMO and vice president of storage channels probably been on the cube more than [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] live from Barcelona Spain it's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 rot to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners welcome back everyone's two cubes live coverage day four of four days of wall-to-wall action here in Barcelona Spain Francisco live 2020 I'm John Ferrier with mykos Dave Volante with a very special guest here to wrap up Cisco live the president of Europe Middle East Africa and Russia Francisco Wendy Mars cube alumni great to see you thanks for coming on to kind of put a bookend to the show here thanks for joining us right there it's absolutely great to be here thank you so what a transformation as Cisco's business model of continues to evolve we've been saying brick by brick we still think is a big move coming I think there's more action I can sense the walls talking to us like let's just go live in the US and more technical announcements in the next 24 months you can see you can see where it's going it's cloud its apps yeah its policy based program ability it's really a whole nother business model shift for you and your customers the technology shift and the business model shift so I want to get your perspective of this year opening key no you let it off talking about the philosophy of the business model but also the first presenter was not a networking guy it was an application person yeah app dynamics yep this is a shift what's going on with Cisco what's happening what's the story well you know if you look for all of the work that we're doing is but is really driven by what we see from requirements from our customers the change that's happening in the market and it is all around you know if you think digital transformation is the driver organizations now are incredibly interested in how do they capture that opportunity how do they use technology to help them but you know if you look at it really there's the three items that are so important it's the business model evolution it's actually the business operations for for organisations plus their people there are people in the communities within that those three things working together and if you look at it with you know it's so exciting with application dynamics there because if you look for us within Cisco that linkage of the application layer through into the infrastructure into the network and bringing that linkage together is the most powerful thing because that's the insight and the value our customers are looking for you know we've been talking about the in the innovation sandwich you know you got you know date in the middle and you got technology and applications underneath that's kind of what's going on here but you I'm glad you brought up the year the part about business model business operations and people in communities because during your keno you had a slide that laid out three kind of pillars yes people in communities business model and business operations there was no 800 series in there there was no product discussions this is fundamentally the big shift that business models are changing I tweeted provocatively the killer app and digital the business model because you think about it the applications are the business and what's running under the covers is the technology but it's all shifting and changing so every single vertical every single business is impacted by this it's not like a certain secular thing in the industry this is a real change can you describe how those three things are operating with that constitute think if you look from you know so thinking through those three areas if you look at the actual business model itself our business models as organizations are fundamentally changing and they're changing towards as consumers we are all much more specific about what we want we have incredible choice in the market we are more informed than ever before but also we are interested in the values of the organizations that were getting the capability from as well as the products and the services that naturally we're looking to gain so if you look in that business model itself this is about you know organizations making sure they stay ahead from a competitive standpoint about the innovation of portfolio that they're able to bring but also that they have a strong strong focus around the experience that their customer gains from an application a touch standpoint that all comes through those different channels which is at the end of the day the application then if you look as to how do you deliver that capability through the systems the tools and the processes as we all evolve our businesses you have to change the dynamic within your organization to cope with that and then of course in driving any transformation the critical success factor is your people and your culture you need your teams with you the way teams operate now is incredibly different it's no longer command and control its agile capability coming together you need that to deliver on any transformation never never mind let it be smooth you know in the execution there so it's all three together what I like about that model and I have to say we this is you know ten years to do in the cube you you see that marketing in the vendor community often leads what actually happens not surprising as we entered the last decade it was a lot of talk about cloud well it kind of was a good predictor we heard a lot about digital transformations a lot of people roll their eyes and think it's a buzzword but we really are I feel like an exiting this cloud era into the digital era it feels real and there are companies that you know get it and are leaning in there are others that maybe you're complacent I'm wondering what you're seeing in in Europe just in terms of everybody talks digital yeah be CEO wants to get it right but there is complacency there when it's a services say well I'm doing pretty well not on my watch others say hey we want to be the disruptors and not get disrupted what are you seeing in the region in terms of that sentiment I would say across the region you know there will always be verticals and industries that are slightly more advanced than others but I would say that then the bulk of conversations that I'm engaged in independence of the industry or the country in which we're having that conversation in there is a acceptance of transfer digital transformation is here it is affecting my business i if I don't disrupt I myself will be disrupted and be challenged help me so I you know I'm not disputing the end state I need guidance and support to drive the transition and a risk mythic mitigated manner and they're looking for help in that and there's actually pressure in the boardroom now around a what are we doing within within organizations within that enterprise the service right of the public said to any type of style of company there's that pressure point in the boardroom of come on we need to move it speed now the other thing about your model is technology plays a role in contribute it's not the be-all end-all but plays a role in each of those the business model of business operations and developing and nurturing communities can you add more specifics what role do you see technology in terms of advancing those three spheres so I think you know if you look at it technology is fundamental to all of those spheres in regard to the innovation the differentiation technology can bring then the key challenges one of being able to reply us in a manner where you can really see differentiation of value within the business so in then the customers organization otherwise it's just technology for the sake of technology so we see very much a movement now to this conversation of talk about the use case the use cases the way by which that innovation can be used to deliver the value to the organization and also different ways by which a company will work look at the collaboration capability that we announced earlier this week of helping to bring to life that agility look at the app D discussion of helping to link the layer of the application into the infrastructure the network's to get to root cause identification quickly and to understand where you may have a problem before you thought it actually arises and causes downtime many many ways I think the agility message has always been a technical conversation a gel methodology technology software development no problem check that's ten years ago but business agility mmm it's moving from a buzzword to reality exactly that's what you're kind of getting in here and teams how teams operate how they work you know and being able to be quick efficient stand up stand down and operate in that way you know we were kind of thinking out loud on the cube and just riffing with Fabio gory on your team on Cisco's team about clarification with Eugene Kim around just just kind of real-time what was interesting is we're like okay it's been 13 years since the iPhone and so 13 years of mobile in your territory in Europe Middle East Africa mobilities been around before the iPhone so with in more advanced data privacy much more advanced in your region so you got you out you have a region that's pretty much I think the tell signs for what's going on in North America and around the world and so you think about that you say okay how is value created how the economics changing this is really the conversation about the business model is okay if the value activities are shifting and be more agile and the economics are changing with sass if someone's not on this bandwagon it's not an in-state discussion where it's done deal yeah it's but I think also there were some other conversation which which are very prevalent here is in in the region so around trust around privacy law understanding compliance you look at data where data resides portability of that data GDP are came from Europe you know and as ban is pushed out and those conversations will continue as we go over time and if I also look at you know the dialogue that you saw so you know within World Economic Forum around sustainability that is becoming a key discussion now within government here in Spain you know from a climate standpoint and many other areas as well Dave and I've been riffing around this whole where the innovation is coming from it's coming from Europe region not so much the u.s. I mean us discuss some crazy innovations but look at blockchain us is like don't touch it pretty progressive outside United States little bit dangerous to but that's where innovation is coming from and this is really the key that we're focused on I want to get your thoughts on how do you see it going next level the next level next-gen business model what's your what's your vision so I think there'll be lots of things if we look at things like with the introduction of artificial intelligence robotics capability 5g of course you know on the horizon we have Mobile World Congress here in Barcelona in a few weeks time and if you talked about with the iPhone the smartphone of course when 4G was introduced no one knew what the use case would that would be it was the smartphone which wasn't around at that time so with 5g in the capability there that will bring again yet more change to the business model for different organizations and the capability and what we can bring to market when we think about AI privacy data ownership becomes more important some of the things you were talking about before it's interesting what you're saying John and when the the GDP are set the standard and and you see in the u.s. there are stovepipes for that standard California is going to do one every state is going to have a different center that's going to slow things down that's going to slow down progress do you see sort of an extension of a GDP are like framework of being adopted across the region and that potentially you know accelerating some of these you know sticky issues and public policy issues that can actually move the market forward I think I think the will because I think there'll be more and more you know if you look at there's this terminology of data is the new oil what do you do with data how do you actually get value from that data and make intelligent business decisions around that so you know that's critical but yet if you look for all of ours we are extremely passionate about you know where is our data used again back to trust and privacy you need compliance you need regulation you know I think this is just the beginning of how we will see that evolve you know when do I get your thoughts does Dave and I have been riffing for 10 years around the death of storage long live storage and but data needs to be stored somewhere networking is the same kind of conversation just doesn't go away in fact there's more pressure now forget the smartphone that was 13 years ago before that mobility data and video now super important driver that's putting more pressure on you guys and so hey we're networking so it's kind of like Moore's law it's like more networking more networking so video and data are now big your thoughts on video and data video but if you look at the Internet of the future you know what so if you look for all of us now we are also demanding as individuals around capability and access to that and inter vetted the future the next phase we want even more so there'll be more and more - you know requirement for speed availability that reliability of service the way by which we engage and we communicate there's some fundamentals there so continuing to to grow which is which is so so exciting for us so you talk about digital transformation that's obviously in the mind of c-level executives I got to believe security is up there as a topic what other what's the conversation like in the corner office when you go visit your customers so I think that there's a huge excitement around the opportunity realizing the value of the of the opportunity you know if you look at top of mind conversations are around security around making sure that you can make tank maintain that fantastic customer experience because if you don't the custom will go elsewhere how do you do that how do you enrich at all times and also looking at markets adjacencies you know as you go in and you talk at senior levels within within organizations independent of the industry in which they're in there are a huge amount of commonalities that we see across those of consistent problems by which organizations are trying to solve and actually one of the big questions is what's the pace of change that I should operate at and when is it too fast and when is what am I too slow and trying to balance that is exciting but also a challenge for companies so you feel like sentiment is still strong even though we're 10 years into this this bull market you know you got Briggs it you get you know China tensions with the US u.s. elections but but generally you see Tennessee sentiment still pretty strong and demand so I would say that the the excitement around technology the opportunity that is there around technology in its broadest sense is greater than ever before and I think it's on all of us to be able to help organizations to understand how they can consume I see value from us but it's you know it's fantastic science it tastes trying to get some economic indicators but really the real thing I'm trying to get you is Minh set of the CEO the corner office right now is it is it we're gonna we're gonna grow short-term by cutting or do we do are we gonna be aggressive and go after this incremental opportunity and it's probably both you're seeing a lot of automation yeah and I think if you look fundamentally for organizations it's it's that the three things helped me to make money how me to save money keep me out of trouble you know so those are the pivots they all operate with and you know depending on where an organization is in its journey whether a start-up there you know in in the in the mid or the more mature and some of the different dynamics and the markets in which they operate in as well there's all different variables you know so it's it's it's mix Wendy thanks so much for spending the time to come on the cube really appreciate great keynote folks watching if you haven't seen the keynote opening sections that's a good section the business model I think it's really right on I think that's going to be a conversation it's going to continue thanks for sharing that before we look before we leave I want to just ask you a question around what you what's going on for you here at Barcelona as the show winds down you had all your activities take us in the day of the life of what you do customer meetings what were some of those conversations take us inside inside what what goes on for you here well I'd say it's been an amazing it's been an amazing few days so it's a combination of customer conversations around some of the themes we just talked about conversations with partners and there's investor companies that we invest in a Cisco that I've been spending some time with and also you know spending time with the teams as well the DEF net zone you know is amazing we have this afternoon the closing session where we've got a fantastic external guest who's coming in it's going to be really exciting as well and then of course the party tonight and we'll be announcing the next location which I'm not gonna reveal now later on today we kind of figured it out already because that's our job and there's the break news but we're not gonna break it for you you can have that hey thank you so much for coming on really appreciate Wendy Martin expecting the Europe Middle East Africa and Russia for Cisco she's got our hand on the pulse and the future is the business model that's what's going on fundamental radical change across the board in all areas this the cue bringing you all the action here in Barcelona thanks for watching [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music]

(techno music) >> From Cambridge, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium 2019, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Welcome back to MIT CDOIQ. The CDO Information Quality Conference. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with my co-host, Paul Gillin. This is our day two of our two day coverage. Jean Ross is here. She's the principle research scientist at MIT CISR, Jean good to see you again. >> Nice to be here! >> Welcome back. Okay, what do all these acronyms stand for, I forget. MIT CISR. >> CISR which we pronounce scissor, is the Center for Information Systems Research. It's a research center that's been at MIT since 1974, studying how big companies use technology effectively. >> So and, what's your role as a research scientist? >> As a research scientist, I work with both researchers and with company leaders to understand what's going on out there, and try to present some simple succinct ideas about how companies can generate greater value from information technology. >> Well, I guess not much has changed in information technology since 1974. (laughing) So let's fast forward to the big, hot trend, digital transformation, digital business. What's the difference between a business and a digital business? >> Right now, you're hoping there's no difference for you and your business. >> (chuckling) Yeah, for sure. >> The main thing about a digital business is it's being inspired by technology. So in the past, we would establish a strategy, and then we would check out technology and say, okay, how can technology make us more effective with that strategy? Today, and this has been driven a lot by start-ups, we have to stop and say, well wait a minute, what is technology making possible? Because if we're not thinking about it, there sure are a lot of students at MIT who are, and we're going to miss the boat. We're going to get Ubered if you will, somebody's going to think of a value proposition that we should be offering and aren't, and we'll be left in the dust. So, our digital businesses are those that are recognizing the opportunities that digital technologies make possible. >> Now, and what about data? In terms of the role of digital business, it seems like that's an underpinning of a digital business. Is it not? >> Yeah, the single biggest capability that digital technologies provide, is ubiquitous data that's readily accessible anytime. So when we think about being inspired by technology, we could reframe that as inspired by the availability of ubiquitous data that's readily accessible. >> Your premise about the difference between digitization and digital business is interesting. It's more than just a sematic debate. Do companies now, when companies talk about digital transformation these days, in fact, are most of them of thinking of digitization rather than really transformative business change? >> Yeah, this is so interesting to me. In 2006, we wrote a book that said, you need to become more agile, and you need to rely on information technology to get you there. And these are basic things like SAP and salesforce.com and things like that. Just making sure that your core processes are disciplined and reliable and predictable. We said this in 2006. What we didn't know is that we were explaining digitization, which is very effective use of technology in your underlying process. Today, when somebody says to me, we're going digital, I'm thinking about the new value propositions, the implications of the data, right? And they're often actually saying they're finally doing what we thought they should do in 2006. The problem is, in 2006, we said get going on this, it's a long journey. This could take you six, 10 years to accomplish. And then we gave examples of companies that took six to 10 years. LEGO, and USAA and really great companies. And now, companies are going, "Ah, you know, we really ought to do that". They don't have six to 10 years. They get this done now, or they're in trouble, and it's still a really big deal. >> So how realistic is it? I mean, you've got big established companies that have got all these information silos, as we've been hearing for the last two days, just pulling their information together, knowing what they've got is a huge challenge for them. Meanwhile, you're competing with born on the web, digitally native start-ups that don't have any of that legacy, is it really feasible for these companies to reinvent themselves in the way you're talking about? Or should they just be buying the companies that have already done it? >> Well good luck with buying, because what happens is that when a company starts up, they can do anything, but they can't do it to scale. So most of these start-ups are going to have to sell themselves because they don't know anything about scale. And the problem is, the companies that want to buy them up know about the scale of big global companies but they don't know how to do this seamlessly because they didn't do the basic digitization. They relied on basically, a lot of heroes in their company to pull of the scale. So now they have to rely more on technology than they did in the past, but they still have a leg up if you will, on the start-up that doesn't want to worry about the discipline of scaling up a good idea. They'd rather just go off and have another good idea, right? They're perpetual entrepreneurs if you will. So if we look at the start-ups, they're not really your concern. Your concern is the very well run company, that's been around, knows how to be inspired by technology and now says, "Oh I see what you're capable of doing, "or should be capable of doing. "I think I'll move into your space". So this, the Amazon's, and the USAA's and the LEGO's who say "We're good at what we do, "and we could be doing more". We're watching Schneider Electric, Phillips's, Ferovial. These are big ole companies who get digital, and they are going to start moving into a lot of people's territory. >> So let's take the example of those incumbents that you've used as examples of companies that are leaning into digital, and presumably doing a good job of it, they've got a lot of legacy debt, as you know people call it technical debt. The question I have is how they're using machine intelligence. So if you think about Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, Google, they own horizontal technologies around machine intelligence. The incumbents that you mentioned, do not. Now do they close the gap? They're not going to build their own A.I. They're going to buy it, and then apply it. It's how they apply it that's going to be the difference. So do you agree with that premise, and where are they getting it, do they have the skill sets to do it, how are they closing that gap? >> They're definitely partnering. When you say they're not going to build any of it, that's actually not quite true. They're going to build a lot around the edges. They'll rely on partners like Microsoft and Google to provide some of the core, >> Yes, right. >> But they are bringing in their own experts to take it to the, basically to the customer level. How do I take, let me just take Schneider Electric for an example. They have gone from being an electrical equipment manufacturer, to a purveyor of energy management solutions. It's quite a different value proposition. To do that, they need a lot of intelligence. Some of it is data analytics of old, and some of it is just better representation on dashboards and things like that. But there is a layer of intelligence that is new, and it is absolutely essential to them by relying on partners and their own expertise in what they do for customers, and then co-creating a fair amount with customers, they can do things that other companies cannot. >> And they're developing a software presumably, a SAS revenue stream as part of that, right? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> How about the innovators dilemma though, the problem that these companies often have grown up, they're very big, they're very profitable, they see disruption coming, but they are unable to make the change, their shareholders won't let them make the change, they know what they have to do, but they're simply not able to do it, and then they become paralyzed. Is there a -- I mean, looking at some of the companies you just mentioned, how did they get over that mindset? >> This is real leadership from CEO's, who basically explain to their boards and to their investors, this is our future, we are... we're either going this direction or we're going down. And they sell it. It's brilliant salesmanship, and it's why when we go out to study great companies, we don't have that many to choose from. I mean, they are hard to find, right? So you are at such a competitive advantage right now. If you understand, if your own internal processes are cleaned up and you know how to rely on the E.R.P's and the C.R.M's, to get that done, and on the other hand, you're using the intelligence to provide value propositions, that new technologies and data make possible, that is an incredibly powerful combination, but you have to invest. You have to convince your boards and your investors that it's a good idea, you have to change your talent internally, and the biggest surprise is, you have to convince your customers that they want something from you that they never wanted before. So you got a lot of work to do to pull this off. >> Right now, in today's economy, the economy is sort of lifting all boats. But as we saw when the .com implosion happened in 2001, often these breakdown gives birth to great, new companies. Do you see that the next recession, which is inevitably coming, will be sort of the turning point for some of these companies that can't change? >> It's a really good question. I do expect that there are going to be companies that don't make it. And I think that they will fail at different rates based on their, not just the economy, but their industry, and what competitors do, and things like that. But I do think we're going to see some companies fail. We're going to see many other companies understand that they are too complex. They are simply too complex. They cannot do things end to end and seamlessly and present a great customer experience, because they're doing everything. So we're going to see some pretty dramatic changes, we're going to see failure, it's a fair assumption that when we see the economy crash, it's also going to contribute, but that's, it's not the whole story. >> But when the .com blew up, you had the internet guys that actually had a business model to make money, and the guys that didn't, the guys that didn't went away, and then you also had the incumbents that embrace the internet, so when we came out of that .com downturn, you had the survivors, who was Google and eBay, and obviously Amazon, and then you had incumbent companies who had online retailing, and e-tailing and e-commerce etc, who thrived. I would suspect you're going to see something similar, but I wonder what you guys think. The street today is rewarding growth. And we got another near record high today after the rate cut yesterday. And so, but companies that aren't making money are getting rewarded, 'cause they're growing. Well when the recession comes, those guys are going to get crushed. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> And you're going to have these other companies emerge, and you'll see the winners, are going to be those ones who have truly digitized, not just talking the talk, or transformed really, to use your definition. That's what I would expect. I don't know, what do you think about that? >> I totally agree. And, I mean, we look at industries like retail, and they have been fundamentally transformed. There's still lots of opportunities for innovation, and we're going to see some winners that have kind of struggled early but not given up, and they're kind of finding their footing. But we're losing some. We're losing a lot, right? I think the surprise is that we thought digital was going to replace what we did. We'd stop going to stores, we'd stop reading books, we wouldn't have newspapers anymore. And it hasn't done that. Its only added, it hasn't taken anything away. >> It could-- >> I don't think the newspaper industry has been unscathed by digital. >> No, nor has retail. >> Nor has retail, right. >> No, no no, not unscathed, but here's the big challenge. Is if I could substitute, If I could move from newspaper to online, I'm fine. You don't get to do that. You add online to what you've got, right? And I think this right now is the big challenge. Is that nothing's gone away, at least yet. So we have to sustain the business we are, so that it can feed the business we want to be. And we have to make that transition into new capabilities. I would argue that established companies need to become very binary, that there are people that do nothing but sustain and make better and better and better, who they are. While others, are creating the new reality. You see this in auto companies by the way. They're creating not just the autonomous automobiles, but the mobility services, the whole new value propositions, that will become a bigger and bigger part of their revenue stream, but right now are tiny. >> So, here's the scary thing to me. And again, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. And I've been an outspoken critic of Liz Warren's attack on big tech. >> Absolutely. >> I just think if they're breaking the law, and they're really acting like monopolies, the D.O.J and F.T.C should do something, but to me, you don't just break up big tech because they're good capitalists. Having said that, one of the things that scares me is, when you see Apple getting into payment systems, Amazon getting into grocery and logistics. Digital allows you to do something that's never happened before which is, you can traverse industries. >> Yep. >> Yeah, absolutely >> You used to have this stack of industries, and if you were in that industry, you're stuck in healthcare, you're stuck in financial services or whatever it was. And today, digital allows you to traverse those. >> It absolutely does. And so in theory, Amazon and Apple and Facebook and Google, they can attack virtually any industry and they kind of are. >> Yeah they kind are. I would certainly not break up anything. I would really look hard though at acquisitions, because I think that's where some of this is coming from. They can stop the overwhelming growth, but I do think you're right. That you get these opportunities from digital that are just so much easier because they're basically sharing information and technology, not building buildings and equipment and all that kind of thing. But I think there all limits to all this. I do not fear these companies. I think there, we need some law, we need some regulations, they're fine. They are adding a lot of value and the great companies, I mean, you look at the Schneider's and the Phillips, yeah they fear what some of them can do, but they're looking forward to what they provide underneath. >> Doesn't Cloud change the equation here? I mean, when you think of something like Amazon getting into the payments business, or Google in the payments business, you know it used to be that the creating of global payments processing network, just going global was a huge barrier to entry. Now, you don't have nearly that same level of impediment right? I mean the cloud eliminates much of the traditional barrier. >> Yeah, but I'll tell you what limits it, is complexity. Every company we've studied gets a little over anxious and becomes too complex, and they cannot run themselves effectively anymore. It happens to everyone. I mean, remember when we were terrified about what Microsoft was going to become? But then it got competition because it's trying to do so many things, and somebody else is offering, Sales Force and others, something simpler. And this will happen to every company that gets overly ambitious. Something simpler will come along, and everybody will go "Oh thank goodness". Something simpler. >> Well with Microsoft, I would argue two things. One is the D.O.J put some handcuffs on them , and two, with Steve Ballmer, I wouldn't get his nose out of Windows, and then finally stuck on a (mumbles) (laughter) >> Well it's they had a platform shift. >> Well this is exactly it. They will make those kind of calls . >> Sure, and I think that talks to their legacy, that they won't end up like Digital Equipment Corp or Wang and D.G, who just ignored the future and held onto the past. But I think, a colleague of ours, David Moschella wrote a book, it's called "Seeing Digital". And his premise was we're moving from a world of remote cloud services, to one where you have to, to use your word, ubiquitous digital services that you can access upon which you can build your business and new business models. I mean, the simplest example is Waves, you mentioned Uber. They're using Cloud, they're using OAuth.in with Google, Facebook or LinkedIn and they've got a security layer, there's an A.I layer, there's all your BlockChain, mobile, cognitive, it's all these sets of services that are now ubiquitous on which you're building, so you're leveraging, he calls it the matrix, to the extent that these companies that you're studying, these incumbents can leverage that matrix, they should be fine. >> Yes. >> The part of the problem is, they say "No, we're going to invent everything ourselves, we're going to build it all ourselves". To use Andy Jassy's term, it's non-differentiated heavy lifting, slows them down, but there's no reason why they can't tap that matrix, >> Absolutely >> And take advantage of it. Where I do get scared is, the Facebooks, Apples, Googles, Amazons, they're matrix companies, their data is at their core, and they get this. It's not like they're putting data around the core, data is the core. So your thoughts on that? I mean, it looks like your slide about disruption, it's coming. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> No industry is safe. >> Yeah, well I'll go back to the complexity argument. We studied complexity at length, and complexity is a killer. And as we get too ambitious, and we're constantly looking for growth, we start doing things that create more and more tensions in our various lines of business, causes to create silos, that then we have to coordinate. I just think every single company that, no cloud is going to save us from this. It, complexity will kill us. And we have to keep reminding ourselves to limit that complexity, and we've just not seen the example of the company that got that right. Sooner or later, they just kind of chop them, you know, create problems for themselves. >> Well isn't that inherent though in growth? >> Absolutely! >> It's just like, big companies slow down. >> That's right. >> They can't make decisions as quickly. >> That's right. >> I haven't seen a big company yet that moves nimbly. >> Exactly, and that's the complexity thing-- >> Well wait a minute, what about AWS? They're a 40 billion dollar company. >> Oh yeah, yeah, yeah >> They're like the agile gorilla. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> I mean, I think they're breaking the rule, and my argument would be, because they have data at their core, and they've got that, its a bromide, but that common data model, that they can apply now to virtually any business. You know, we're been expecting, a lot of people have been expecting that growth to attenuate. I mean it hasn't yet, we'll see. But they're like a 40 billion dollar firm-- >> No that's a good example yeah. >> So we'll see. And Microsoft, is the other one. Microsoft is demonstrating double digit growth. For such a large company, it's astounding. I wonder, if the law of large numbers is being challenged, so. >> Yeah, well it's interesting. I do think that what now constitutes "so big" that you're really going to struggle with the complexity. I think that has definitely been elevated a lot. But I still think there will be a point at which human beings can't handle-- >> They're getting away. >> Whatever level of complexity we reach, yeah. >> Well sure, right because even though this great new, it's your point. Cloud technology, you know, there's going to be something better that comes along. Even, I think Jassy might have said, If we had to do it all over again, we would have built the whole thing on lambda functions >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Not on, you know so there you go. >> So maybe someone else does that-- >> Yeah, there you go. >> So now they've got their hybrid. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> You know maybe it'll take another ten years, but well Jean, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE, >> it was great to have you. >> My pleasure! >> Appreciate you coming back. >> Really fun to talk. >> All right, keep right there everybody, Paul Gillin and Dave Villante, we'll be right back from MIT CDOIQ, you're watching theCUBE. (chuckles) (techno music)

from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley Palo Alto California this is a cute conversation hey welcome back everybody Jeffrey here with the cube we're in our Palo Alto Studios here today for a cute conversation it's a little bit of a dog days of summer conference seasons a little bit slow so we're excited we can kind of take a step back and we're gonna look back actually in time we're excited to have a very special guest rich Kolbert he is the field CTO at Dell EMC but really what we're talking about today is this data domain is 10-year anniversary of the date domain acquisition so rich first off welcome to the to the cube thanks Jeff excited to be here thanks for the invitation appreciate it I can't believe we're talking before we turned the cameras on that you join in 2006 and yet it's been 10 years I'm like wait 2006 was more than 10 can that be we're just getting old I don't know things are changing too fast no it's like a trip down memory lane and it just seems so long ago and yes in a way it also seems like yesterday I think things have gone so quickly so we're also joined in this segment by our top data analyst also the founder of wiki bond and co-ceo of Silicon angle media and founder of that as well so Dave Villante is joining us all the way from Boston Dave good to see ya hey Jeff hi rich to talk to you guys hey Dave so let's take a quick trip back 10 years ago actually maybe 11 years ago things were starting to heat up there was a lot of different vendors out there a lot of different players and things started to consolidate so I wonder if you can give us a little bit of your perspective what what's going on rich and then we'll get Dave's perspective yeah it was an interesting time right before the data domain acquisition we actually went through some economic times in 2008 and the markets are changing and and and some companies are becoming more successful some companies were struggling through that time customers were also looking for ways to to you know save money and do some interesting things there so it was a mixed feeling set of you know through that times data domain had IPO in 2007 and we were kind of going through this this explosive period of growth but you know across the board we just saw so many things change all at once and we really were surprised I think when initially was NetApp that an that they had intentions to bias and I think that was due to some of the economic factors of play and then of course EMC stepped in and and started a bidding contest with NetApp for for the company right so I Dave wonder if you could share your perspective you're sitting as an analyst you got Jo TG The Godfather of storage back in Boston what were you seeing in terms of the kind of the market dynamics and was it a surprise wouldn't that app decided to make a move well if you know first first of all I had left the storage industry for quite some time and when I started wiki bond we looked at storage and nothing had changed except one thing which was David deduplication that was new until a new tape was finally I always hated the tape the tape was finally being attacked so it was it was amazing time and EMC at the time we had some obviously great management yet Frank Sluman running data domain yo Joe Tucci who always balanced out acquisitions with organic you know in how to R&D and when Tom Georgians and NetApp said they were gonna go by David domain emt's walk right in and said no way so it was somewhat of a defensive move but at the same time when you talk to the M&A guys they said no no it's not just defense we can actually make this a growth play and that's exactly what happened Dayna domain I think at the time rich was probably a couple of hundred million dollar company and then they they popped that at the EMC and scaled that to you know well over a billion dollars and it'll maintain the the franchise and then grew it quite dramatically beyond where all the expectations were for the market the market team at the time was probably around a billion and I think ID seen rich as a over three billion today yeah one of the things that's so don't quote me on all the numbers because I'm not like you know watching the market caps and stocks but I think we'd gotten up to about a 500 million dollar run rate in terms of sales and prior to the crash I think our market cap was actually significantly higher so so our price came down you know which is one of the things I think that attracted NetApp to the game so the interesting dynamic inside the company was that the NetApp offer was was kind of the first one so they were working with the data domain leadership and they were speaking with us EMC was more of a kind of unsolicited offer so there was less communication and I remember there was a morning I was at San Francisco Airport going out to meet a customer and Joe to Chi put out a full-page ad in a local newspaper and we were reading that and that was his way of communicating to the to the people a data domain saying he wants to welcome us into the family it was quite a moment well it sure was and of course you guys were fierce competitors data domain was fierce competitors with with EMC you know fighting for for the install base and then all of a sudden you know the cultures it's somehow work EMC was was very good at acquisitions and he made it work and they not active it was an outside observer but you were there you know Frank Sluman came in did it's kind of running the the data protection organization but a lot has changed since then hasn't it I mean back then you stored you know a little bit of data I think accounting of terabytes today we live in a petabyte scale world I could talk about what's changed well you know the scales and performance certainly has changed I think the data domain platform today is about a thousand times larger than it was when it first came to market and in fact when we were being bid on by NetApp and EMC we had a flagship product is the DD 690 you know behind the scenes we had a system that was coming out that was double that size and EMC nor Netta knew about that so once the deal closed they got to find out that our size had just doubled in our performance and doubled at the same time but you're right you kind of talked about the dynamics inside of EMC EMC had a very large data protection you know division they had avemar networker santaros v TLS they also had an OEM arrangement for a competing product with the data domain platform so it was really like you know I compared to going to Hogwarts right where you have all of these different houses and we came in with with data domain and and I think the thing that really the glue that really helped it come to get was Joe Tucci you know tapping Frank's Luqman on the shoulder as the leader to bring this together and taking what was the borough division and and reforming it as the BRS division and I think we came together very quickly as a team even though people came from all of these different backgrounds you know standing for these different products rich let me follow up on that because there's a lot of M&A activity going on right now and and not very many big M&A deals are ultimately successful it turns out so what you said a little bit about you know Joe and Frank you know coming together but what are some of the other attributes that you would say that made it work it actually did what everybody hopes on an acquisition which is take great technology put it into a big sales machine and watch it grow and grow I think part of it you know quite frankly just comes down to the product and being differentiated because there are a lot of products out there and and if you take a step back they have good things that they're doing but it's very hard to find a product that says hey you're doing something that even if you put the blueprints out there it's very hard for other people to follow in those footsteps and create a similar value proposition and I think I think in this case it was a differentiated product and it had a lot of energy of its own and and I think from an EMC perspective they just stood back and said let's take this momentum and and play it out and see how how far it can take itself unfortunately I think a lot of times they don't do that right a lot of times acquiring companies don't just take this great thing and kind of get out of the way and add the juice where they can but you try to to try to change it so that's a really nice statement on Joe to G and what he was able to accomplish yeah no he was fantastic for us and and his support was tremendous but also his you know delegation and and kind of seeing how this but you know kind of having a vision of how this business unit should be formed right I think what was was very prison and then now you're part of Dell so obviously Michael Dell big personality as well the Dell technology stories he's doing a great job of pulling all these pieces together and you know kind of reinvigorating the brand coming back out of the little little side bar you know make it private for a while and come back so I wonder if you can talk about that integration how's that going as you've gone now a couple of times well I think it's been very exciting for us because the one piece that EMC had always been lacking had been the the compute part of the picture and now we have really the ability to go in and talk about the entire stack with our customers and that's that's a lot more powerful than saying here is an element of it and then if you want to go and add compute to that perhaps you know put in your virtual or physical servers then you're gonna we're going to need to partner with somebody and you know it's it's just a much cleaner story from end to end right right so the big big change obviously that wasn't around ten years ago that is around today is public cloud right huge impact not only directly in in taking workloads to the public cloud but also I think much more importantly changing the way people think about provisioning thinking about the way people think about elastic capacity so as as the market has evolved the rise of AWS and any other public clouds how has that changed what you guys are doing how are you reacting to that house at a new opportunity you know to kind of grow the maturity of the core product yeah well the thing is we have taken a lot of approach you know that's been learning and evolving as well right so so you know developers and applications really figured out AWS and the public cloud early I think data protection has has followed along with a couple years of lag in terms of doing that so you know our perspective is we learned as well right so so 2015 2016 I think there was some resistance and I think ultimately when we started to follow those workloads into the cloud there was a little bit of a lift and shift what we've learned is that the architecture really matters when you get to the cloud so the efficient use of resources the ability to do things in a cloud like way to use for example object storage instead of block storage when when the case presents itself so we took our products and virtualize them and followed them into the cloud but we realized that just taking the on-premise version of the product and putting it in the cloud itself isn't enough right because at the end of the day the customer is paying for all the underlying resources and so if your architecture is an efficient from a cost perspective as well as a performance perspective it's not going to be a viable solution and so 2017-2018 we've really seen a big acceleration in our adoption in the cloud because we have adapted our architecture to be more cloud friendly and more cost-effective for our customers to deploy but it was a learning experience for sure you know and and I think we're continuing to learn and continue to develop in that space and there's a lot of opportunity ahead of us the other big change I think that's come that we see over and over and over is really data as an asset only as an asset but as a huge valuable asset that drives your business drives real lytx but then becomes actually something that drives your company value and I think we see that and the Facebook's of the world and the googles of the world of why they have these crazy high valuations relative to here to their revenue and their profits because they're getting value for the data alright great news for you right it used to be a sample the day of the day was a pain it was expensive to store I didn't want to keep it all now everyone wants all the data they want to analyze it in real time and they want to put it in a place where they can actually put multiple applications across that same data set to do all kinds of new analytics so again super opportunity for you guys people aren't storing any less data no absolutely yeah no the data amount being stored is definitely growing one of the things that we're seeing that that's this kind of pervasive is this idea of of really using the right data the right place the right time so accessibility to whether it is a data Lake or it is your protection copies or you know an instant access of your protection copies there's a lot of different thing customers are doing with data but it's no longer a one-size-fits-all proposition like it was back in the tape automation days where I'm just throwing all of this stuff into a box and and never accessing it again right so the dynamics are changing and continue to evolve I expect that if we have this conversation two or three years down the road we're going to see some amazing things happen in the next couple of years that and some of it we were not predicting now we're gonna find out as customer demand and as innovation guides us along right because then the other big piece is the media right we've talked about tapes and the original data domain was was in response to some issues with tape and we get spinning rust as everybody likes to call it and now of course flash so yeah again see change in terms of capability the cost is coming down it's no longer the super high-end thing just for super high value applications so very transfer transformative opportunity on the on the media side as well on the flashlight as well you hit on a couple of really key things data domain was very successful because it became viable and practical to displace tape automation and nobody was a fan of their tape automation environments and now I think we're gonna see that's that same shift you know spinning disk is right now being relegated to archival and backup purposes but we're gonna hit an inflection point very soon I think we're where every instance of spinning disk probably can be questioned and so we are actually doing the you know kind of getting ahead of that curve and coming out with all flash products as a choice for a customer so we'll still have spinning disk for some backup use cases but we'll also have you know be able to offer customers a choice of the data domain technology on an all flash set of platforms and that will give customers a chance to get out of the yeah that spinning disk business as well right good I wonder if I get what if I get chime in here I you guys were talking about the the technologies and the cloud and the architecture it's interesting it David the main really started out don't hate me for saying this but as a feature product and the key feature was data deduplication data domain had the best you had a lot of guys doing post process you had you know some guys trying to do server-side avemar itself for example but they domain really killed it with regard to data David II do and if this feature product became a platform and had an architecture people became as you know unicorn times 2 plus plus and so I wanted to ask you rich about that architecture and aware it can go you're talking about different media now beyond spinning disk you know it used to be just a kind of a dumb target you've now got integrated appliances you've got software that's integrated there so it's you know you talked about the scale and the capacity where do you see this architecture going I wonder if you could comment on yeah well I think a lot of that belongs in in the realm of the data management software that speaks to it and and by having a distributed ecosystem and having things like you know distributed segment processing so we can take data domains technology and extend it out into those data management activities because a lot of the what's happening in the market is as new workloads are coming into the market they're having their own methods and native tools built-in for data protection and to be able to leverage those and have a highly consolidated affect on the backend is still extremely valuable to our customers and you're right it was a differentiated product from a deduplication standpoint but really the feature was that I can keep my 30 60 or 90 days worth of copies that are separate from my primary copies so I putting them somewhere safe I can even put them under different governance from my primary storage or my primary application owners right and it's practical and feasible and and prior to that the only real way to do that was with tape automation deduplication has become more of a broader word itself and it goes beyond what data domain does so there's deduplication and primary storage but if you look at primary storage deduplication it's good but it's designed to help you reduce the use of primary storage by 2 or 3 times it doesn't touch on the 30 60 90 days of retention that data domain does so there the similar technologies and a common use of the word but but they're two different use cases that the the remains separate I think yeah and you know as a former practitioner the other you are I think a former customer the genius part of the genius of data domain was its ability to just plug in to existing processes yes you didn't have to change things up and so it was an easy in but but it's impressive that you've been able to keep that that architecture going I wanted to ask you about market share you aided them in has always had a sixty plus percent market share I think it's at sixty now but it's it's like the Cisco of purpose-built backhaul appliances you're able to sort of dominate that little segment of the market which keeps getting bigger what but now you've got a lot of new entrants you know on VC money pouring in a lot of noise in the marketplace I feel like you guys maybe a couple years ago took your eye off the wall and now you've got this renewed sense of a vigor you know maybe it was parked partly the acquisition but you know we've talked to Beth Phelan about this a number of times you've really refreshed the portfolio so so wonder if you can talk about that and my question is what gives you confidence that you can continue to maintain your dominance yeah that's a great question and things have really changed I think starting around 2014 we were having some internal conversations about things like simplification the consumerization of IT and and all of those those dollars that you're talking about are really being poured into companies that are trying to take a different approach they're going into the white space that we had kind of left open which was simplicity right if you if you look back 10 or 15 years and you look at the the data management and enterprise backup software space enterprise backup software has been complicated and as you add more use cases it has become even more complicated and the customer base is no longer tolerant of that that's something that that maybe 10 or 15 years ago that was kind of a badge of honor to be working with complex and people just don't have the time for that there's a lot of IT generalists and folks that are out there that don't want to go to training class you know you know five days or ten days out of the year to learn how to use a product so that was a really good thing that we're seeing in the marketplace in terms of making products simpler easier to use and more approachable with things like discoverable functionality we certainly have the you know put a lot of effort into going in that direction because we think that's the right direction but what gives me confidence is the underlying storage value proposition about efficiency and performance and scale is something that we've still think that we have a strong upper hand on and when it comes down to that you know we take cloud as an example our data reduction in the cloud we think allows a much lower cost to serve and you know the customer is going to pay for that cloud storage or that cloud compute regardless of which vendor they're trusting in terms of their their solutions so simple only goes so far we think we can get there with simple but we don't necessarily see our competition having the efficiencies scalability and and so forth that we've already had so that that's good that gives me a lot of confidence so when you talk to customers what's the big problem the big hairy problem that they're trying to solve in your space and how are you guys helping so I one of the two big problems I see is is really a lot of IT teams are confronted with they've got a digital transformation going on they've got a cloud strategy going on an IT isn't necessarily being invited to the table early enough or often enough to go ahead and help with that process so what you have is you a cloud team building applications bringing things online and then the data protection the backups the snapshots whatever they're doing to make sure that that data is safe is is a bit of an afterthought and it you know I think of DevOps and I think about the ops part and I've never really come across an application team that wanted to own the business responsibility for the risk of you know backups recovery replication and all of that and I think IT has a lot of established practices that would be good to inform how those things should be built so the number one thing that I'm talking to with my customers when we're talking about this whole you know tectonic shift and in the way things are being done is that IT and the digital transformation or the cloud team do need to speak early and often and proactively about how they approach data protection because they continue to need to have a strategy that evolves and make sure they keep themselves protected as they start moving these critical workloads into the cloud it's an age-old problem with backup and data protection people think of it as a back as a bolt-on is an afterthought and your point is right on it's got to be a fundamental part of any transformation it's just like security you can't bolt it on earth just doesn't scale yeah and it's very much like you know back in the day when open systems was just coming of age there was a lot of operational discipline that the mainframe teams had and the mid-range teams had but the open systems was the Wild West and eventually open systems learned and and and a lot of that you know was knowledge sharing about best practices and you know Mis became IT now IT is becoming you know DevOps and digital transformation we're seeing a lot of that same dynamic happening again and and you know my main point is just you know start those conversations and if you're on the IT side start those conversations proactively you might not be getting invited to the digital transformation party invite yourself rich has been quite a 10 years and and as I was just watching an Andy Jazzy interview if you think the last 10 years have been crazy you ain't seen nothing yet so you guys are in a great position to stay agile and I'm gonna steal your line that it's no longer an honor to work on complicated systems that's great yeah it's been great being here thanks for having me and looking forward to maybe coming back in ten years and seeing what changed so hopefully we won't wait 10 years so rich thanks for stopping by Dave thanks for checking in from Boston and it's great to see you as well thanks you guys thanks Dave thanks Jeff [Music]

>> Voiceover: Live from San Diego, California. It's the CUBE, covering Cisco Live U.S. 2019, brought to you by Cisco, and its EcoSystem Partners. >> Welcome back to San Diego, day two here, of Cisco Live 2019, I'm Dave Villante with my co-host Stu Miniman, Lisa Martin is also here. You're watching the Cube, the leader live tech coverage, we're here in the DevNet zone, which is a very happenin' place, and all the action is here the CCIE folks are getting trained up on how to do Infrastructure as Code. Terry Ramos is here, he's the Vice President of Alliances, at Cohesity, hot company, achieving escape velocity. Terry great to have you on. Good to see you again. >> Great to be here, really enjoy it. >> So Cisco is a big partner of yours, perhaps the biggest I know you don't like to say that, you love all your partners like you love your kids, but clearly a lot of good action going on with you guys. Talk about the partnership, where it started, how it's evolved. >> Sure so first off a little bit about Cohesity, I think would be helpful right, we're in the data management space, really helping customers with their data management, and how do they deal with the problem of mass data fragmentation, right if you think about the traditional data silos that enterprises have, we really take and level that out into one platform, our platform, and really allows customers to get the most out of their data. If we talk about the partnership with Cisco, it's actually a really good partnership. They have been an investor with us, both series C and D rounds. We recently, about three months ago announced that we were on the price book, so now a customer has the ability to go buy a Cisco UCS, Hyperflex, and Cohesity, as a cohesive bundle to solve their problems, right, to really help them grow. And then we are working on some new things, like Cisco Solutions Plus Support, where customers has a single call place, where they get all their support needs addressed. >> That's huge Stu, I remember when the, remember the Vblock when it first came out. It's a V support, I forget how many VMs, like thousands and thousands of VMs, and I just have one question, how do you back it up? And they went, and they were staring at their feet, so the fact that now you're bundled in to UCS HyperFlex, and that's part of the SKU, or its a different SKU or? >> Terry: Yeah they're all different SKUs, but it is bundled together. >> Yeah, so it's all integrated? It's a check box item, right okay? >> What we did was came up with the CVD, validated design so customers can get a validated design that says HyerFlex, UCS, Cohesity, here's how to deploy it, here's the best use cases, and they can actually go buy that, then it's a bundled solution. >> Terry brings us inside a little bit that go to market, because it's one thing to be partnered with CBDs, they're great but Cisco as you know hundred of these, if not more, but you know when you've got access to that Cisco channel out there, people that are transforming data centers, they talked about conversion infrastructure, hyper conversion infrastructure, Cisco UCS, tip of the spear for Cisco in that Data Center world, what does it mean to be that oh hey you know that whole channel, they are going to help get paid on that not just say oh yeah yeah that works. >> Yeah, I think that there's a few things for the channel for us, one is just Cisco's team themselves right, they don't have a backup solution so we are really the next gen backup and that's really helped them out. When we talk about Channel as well Channel partners are looking for a solution that differentiates them from everybody else. So we are a high touch sales team, but we are a hundred percent channel so working with the channel, giving them new ways actually to go out a sell the solution. >> So lets talk a little bit about backup, data protection, data insurance you know sort of we're trying to pass between, all right, what's the marketing and what's the reality for customers, so we remember the VM where Ascendancy days, it caused people to really have to rethink their backup and their data protection. What's driving it now? Why are so many customers kind of reassessing their backup approach and their overall data protection and data management? >> Yeah, I think it's the best analogy to last one is data management right, everybody has thought of data protection, it's just protecting your data. Backup and recovery. What we've done is really looked at it as it's data, you should be able to use your data however you want to. So, yeah we made do data protection on the platform, but then we do tests that, we do file shares, we do things like that, and we make it this cohesive data management platform, where customers get various use cases, but then they can look at their entire dataset, and that is really the key anymore. And when you talk about the data protection as it was, it was very silo. You data protect one set of systems, and data protect the next, and data protect the next. They never talked you couldn't do management across them. >> Dave: Okay so. >> Yeah yeah Terry. So I love when you're talking about the silos there, back in Barcelona we heard Cisco talking about HyperFlex anywhere, and some of the concerns of us have is, is multi-cloud the new multi vendor, and oh my gosh have I just created a whole bunch of silos that are just outside of my data center, like I used to do inside my data center. How's Cohesity helping to solve that solution for people from your. >> Yeah I think that's a interesting one. Cloud is really come along, right? Everybody thought we'll see what cloud does, it's really come a long way and people are using multi-cloud, so they are doing cloud on prem. Then they're archiving out to public cloud providers, and they're archiving out to other silos where they, or other data services where they have it, and that's really been the approach lately, is you can't just have your data in one location, you're going to move it out to the Cloud, you're going to store it on UCS and HyperFlex, and Cohesity. And again its how do you use that data, so that's the key is really that. But it is a cloud world for sure, where you're doing On-prem Cloud and Public Cloud. >> So today a lot of that focus, correct me it I am wrong, is infrastructure as a service? >> Yes >> Whether it's AWS, Google, you know Azure. Do you, have you started to think about, or are customers and partners asking you to think about, all the protecting all the data in SAS, is that something that's sort of on the road map are you hearing that for customers, or to is it still early for that? >> No I think that actually a great use case, if you talk about I'll just pick on one, Office 365 right, if you think about what they really provide it's availability right it's not backup so, if you need to back a year and get that critical email that you need for whatever reason, that's really not what they're doing. They're making sure it's up and running, and available to the users. So data protection for SAS apps is actually a new use case that I think is enormous. >> Okay so take Office 365 as an example, is that something you can protect today, or is that kind on the road map? >> That's something we can do today. >> So explain to our audience, why if I am using Office 365 which is in the Cloud, isn't Microsoft going to take care of that for me, why do I need Cohesity explain? >> Yeah, I think it is really comes down to that, it's they're really providing availability, yeah they have some backup services, but even if they do it's not tying into your overall data management solution. And so backing up O-365 gives you access to all that data as well, so you can do algorithms on it, analytics all those things once it's part of the bigger platform. >> And you probably have more facile recovery, which is, backup is one thing, recovery Stu. >> Is a everything. >> There you go. >> It is. (laugh) >> Terry talk to us about your customers, how about any big you know Cisco joint customers that you can talk about but would love to hear some of the latest from your customers? >> Yeah I think when we started this partnership awhile ago, what we really focused on Cohesity on UCS, and we got some traction there. When we went on the price sheet that really changed, things because the customers are now able to buy on a single price sheet. When you talk about the large customers it's been incredible the last three, four months, the numbers of joint customers that we've been in, and Cisco's been in, and its enterprise customers, it's the fortune five hundred customers that we're going after. A customer that's here later today, Quantium is a great use case. They're data analytics, they're AI, and they're providing a lot of information to customers on supply chain. And he's here later today on the CUBE, and it's a really great use case to what they are doing with it. >> Yeah we're excited to talk to him so lets do a little prep for him, what, tell us about Quantium, what do you know about them so we, gives us the bumper sticker so we're ready for the interview. >> Craig will do a much better job of it, but my understanding is they're looking at data, supply chain data, when to get customers in, when they should have product there, propensity to buy, all of those things, and they are doing all that for very large enterprise customers, and then they're using us to data protect all that they do. >> So, so the reason I asked that is I wanted to double click on that, because you've been stressing Terry, that it's not just backup. It's this notion of data management. You can do Analytics, you can do other things. So when you, lets generalize and lets not make it specific to Quantium, we'll talk to them later, but what specifically are customers doing beyond backup? What kind of analytics are they doing? How is affecting their business? What kind of outcomes are they trying to drive? >> Yeah I think it's a great question, we did something about four months ago, where we replaced released the market place. So now we've gotten all this data from data protection, file shares, test-dev, cloud as we talked about. So we've got this platform with all this data on top of it, and now partners can come in and write apps on top to do all sorts of things with that data. So think of being able to spin up a VM in our platform, do some Analytics on it, looking at it for any number of things, and then destroy it right, destroy the backup copy not the backup the copy that's made, and then be able to go to the next one, and really get deep into what data is on there, how can I use that data, how can I use that data across various applications? >> Are you seeing, I've sort have always thought the corpus, the backup corpus could be used in a security context, not you know, not to compete with Palo Alto Networks but specifically to assess exposure to things like Ransomware. If you see some anomalous behavior 'cause stuff when it goes bad it goes bad quickly these days, so are you seeing those types of use cases emerging? >> Absolutely, ransomware is actually a really big use case for us right now, where customers are wanting data protection to ensure Ransomware's not happening, and if they do get hit how do we make sure to restart quickly. Give you another example is we have a ClamAV so we can spin up a VM and check it for anitivirus. Right in their data protection mode so not without, not touching the production systems but touching the systems that are already backed up. >> I think you guys recently made an acquisition of a Manas Data which if I recall correctly was a specialized, sort of data protection company focused on things like, NoSQL and maybe Hadoop and so forth, so that's cool. We had those guys on in New York City last fall. And then, so I like that, building out the portfolio. My question is around containers, and all this cloud native stuff going on we're in the DevNet zone so a lot DevOps action, data protection for containers are you, your customers and your partners are they sort of pushing you in that direction, how are you responding? >> Yeah I think when you talk about cloud in general right, there's been a huge amount of VMs that are there, containers are there as well so yeah customers are absolutely talking about containers. Our market place is a container based market place, so containers are absolutely a big thing for us. >> So what else can you share with us about you know conversations that you're having with customers and partners at the show? What are the, what's the narrative like? What are some of the big concerns, maybe that again either customers or partners have? >> Yeah I don't want to sound like a broken record but I think the biggest thing we hear always is the data silos, right? It's really breaking down those silos, getting rid of the old legacy silos where you can't use the data how you want to, where you can't run analytics across the data. That is the number one talk track that customers tell us. >> So how does that fit in, you know the old buzz word of digital transformation, but we always say the difference between a business and a digital business is how they use data. And if you think about how a traditional business looks at it's data, well that data's all in silos as you pointed out and there's something in the middle like a business process or a bottling plant or... >> That's right. >> manufacturing facility, but the data's all dispersed in silos, are you seeing people, as at least as part of their digital transformation, leveraging you guys to put that data in at least in a logical place that they can do those analytics and maybe you could add some color to that scenario. >> Yeah, for sure, I mean the data from I'll give you a great example. The CBD we just did with Cisco, the updated one has Edge. So now when you're talking about plants and branch offices and those things, now we can bring that data back in to the central core as well, do analytics on it, and then push it to other offices for updated information. So absolutely, it is a big use case of, it's not just looking at that core central data center. How do you get that data from your other offices, from your retail locations, from your manufacturing plants. >> Final thoughts. San Diego, good venue you know great weather. >> Beautiful. >> Cisco Live. >> Yeah. >> Dave: Put a bumper sticker on it. >> I'm impressed with Cisco Live. I haven't been here in several years. It's an impressive show, 26 thousand people, great, beautiful weather, great convention center. Just a great place to be right now. >> All right and we're bring it all to you live from the CUBE. Thank you Terry for coming on. Dave Villante, for Stu Miniman, Lisa Martin is also here. Day two, Cisco Live, 2019. You're watching the CUBE, we'll be right back. (upbeat techno music)

live from Las Vegas it's the queue covering del technology's world 2019 brought to you by Dell technologies and it's ecosystem partners hey welcome back everyone cubes live coverage day three of three days of wall-to-wall coverage got two sets exploding the content out there the cube can and we've been calling it so much content coming in I'm John Fourier your host with mykos de Villante we're Tom sweet is the CFO of Dell Technologies he's the man who's making it all happen all the numbers are starting to come in we're starting to see some real big numbers and more welcome to the Q thanks for spending the time hey I'm happy to be here it's great to see you guys again and it's been a great three days here at Deltek world so I'm very excited about what we're seeing all of the enthusiasm by with our customers and partners and the receptivity to what we're doing as a company and the capabilities we're driving is pretty exciting it's kind of like the postgame show I guess the show's going to end today but I've been watching you and the analysts giving all the presentations you're what we call a Czech athlete you got a you got to hold the ship down make the numbers work you got a lot of great puzzle pieces that you know you guys have laid out here at the show across the portfolio aggressive new architecture around end-to-end operations a lot of moving parts being integrated in and the numbers are looking really good a scoreboard looks good give it take us through the highlights of inside the numbers up into the right give us the highlights well you know thank you for that but it's been we had a great fiscal 19 as you guys know by now right so 90 over 91 billion dollars of non-gaap revenue we added 11 billion dollars of revenue in the year or so if you think about that that's the equivalent of a couple of Fortune 500 companies coming into the company you know took share in all the categories that were focused on you know we took over 320 basis points of share and storage I mean over 200 basis points of share and main stream server revenue you know our PC client commercial clients you took over I think a couple hundred basis points this year so we're very pleased with the progress but I think what's most exciting as we think about value creation we're headed as a company is some of the things that we announced this week around the cloud platform and what you're beginning to see is the fill in of the capabilities and the tie together of the companies that are coming together with integrated solutions and capabilities and so you know I've been with the analyst and as you referenced and they had lots of good questions on how does this all fit together how does it then what's the acceleration point if you will how does this take off from here and you know so work and so we went through that in terms of let's put the platform out there let's begin to build on it you know customers are asking for that multi cloud capability this is what this does for them it ties this together and one single pane of glass from an orchestration and management perspective so we're really excited and then you know you saw Jeff introduce a bunch of new products the new latitude line some of the new server capabilities new storage arrays that are coming and so you know customer the buzz here is pretty strong so it's been pretty exciting this we congratulations on just a shareholder value I know from a numbers standpoint it's really been successful congratulations the question I want to ask you going back I remember the conversation you know HPE got smaller HP Enterprise got smaller Dell was getting bigger and the conversation at that time was scale as a competitive advantage and we were talking about how cloud was showing the way that scale actually has these synergies as you look back now and as the evolution started you guys start executing we was the the first sign of wow this is gonna be awesome well probably Michael was more optimistic about it than I was figure out how to pay for it come on that's a lot of money you know so but look I mean I think what we saw when we when we came together as with Dell and EMC was the fact that he come we needed each other right we had capabilities that didn't overlap they gave us great presence and technology in the data center and clearly they have brought VMware and pivotal with them we brought scale we brought maybe an execution framework and a focus and the combination of the has been pretty powerful and look I mean it's taken a couple of years of heavy lifting right but and we're not done and there's lots to go do but I think we're pretty excited about how this started to accelerate on us you know or pick up momentum I should say you know middle last year does it margin expansion or is it to go to market efficiency or supply chain all three I think it's all three right if you listen to us over the last couple years we talked about hey we needed to invest we had to invest in new capabilities from a solution perspective we had to invest in go to market coverage you know so we've spent a fair amount of investment dollars putting you know putting the pieces in place and so then it takes time for that to come together and coalesce and I think we're early innings on that you know you know lots of competition out there but we're excited about the positioning right now so the numbers are pretty remarkable I mean to be a 90 billion dollar company growing it you know 14 percent it's pretty amazing however you know this if you take VMware's market cap to multiply it by 0.8 which is your share subtract out your core debt you know subtract out your market cap you're left with like a billion dollars is that really how we should think about the core Danelle is worth about about a billion dollars you know it's you're now getting to where I spent all my last year talking about valuation right but look I we obviously think differently about the value of the core company you just think about free cash flow coming out of the core which is over you know two and a half to three and a half billion dollars sort of three and a half billion dollar range I mean how quo the valuation framework in some instances doesn't make a lot of sense we understand that you know we're a large-scale tech company and tech investors in general haven't been you know exposed to companies with tech companies with a lot of debt right and we have more debt than the average I think it's very manageable because what's the opposite side of of you know the other side of the conversation on debt is what your EBIT are right so you think about moldable and and so look we think look I can't art I can't win those arguments as you know right around I think what we have to do is continue to go execute the business over time and I think you've you know that will demonstrate the value creation opportunity that exists here and you know people will decide whether they want to invest in us and come along with it or not well I've said it's a really cheap way to own VMware I mean if you really look at no way don't do the EM we're so there is that play one of the things that I've been really impressed with this week is your emphasis on growth but profitable growth you're not just going for market share for market share sake you got but but you are going hard for market share it's an interesting balance how do you balance those two oh it's sort of this constant juggle right because look I mean you think about where we compete PC server external storage we can talk Software Defined and some of the other dynamics that are going on but those mark those areas are generally not double-digit growth areas right and so if you're going to grow you're generally taking share from somebody right and so we had this philosophy in these types of areas we got to grow and it's got to be profitable to your point and in these spaces you can go out and get a lot of market share that's doable but you can also spend a lot of money doing that right you can you can rent share so to speak if you want it and so there's this balance of pushing the team's on go grow I want it to be the right kind of growth which means what does that mean it means you go acquire customers that have a value stream associated with them and yes you may be aggressive to go get them but over time you build that cape you build the ecosystem around them in terms of the other solutions and capabilities they're buying and so it's this constant balance you know and so that's what we're we're trying to make sure we get right if you will yeah one more CFL question if I may and then we can talk about more fun stuff so it talks about the debt yeah I think you got that covered you've managing that very well you know we talked about the valuation fine one of the areas that that I have some concerns about I'd like your responses just the PC business itself it's a very important business for you guys yeah it's it's about half the revenue maybe it's not as profitable we know that but it also absorbs a lot of overhead of the company so big shifts in that business would have tectonic effects I would think on your business how do you think about that how do you manage that I wonder if I haven't heard much talk about that and I just wonder if you could you know educate CSG business which is our PC business we've got forty three billion dollar business last year so you're right it provides us great scale by the way and great supply chain scale but if you if you think about what's driving the PC Renaissance right now there's a Windows 10 refresh going on as you both know and you know Microsoft's estimate would be hey you got to probably another year or so that left and then you got through most of that refresh cycle and then the question I always get to your point is what's next yeah and then I'm good some let me pivot the conversation which is if you think about what's next is the feedback we're now getting when you think about the workforce and the generation that's in the workforce now wants good technology and so the days of let me give all of my employees and team members these $400 $500 thick pcs that wait eight nine ten pounds are gone companies want employees want technology that they can carry that they like that's usable you know the whole flexible workforce dynamic and so there's a whole conversation around workforce transformation that's happening the other thing is you you hear us talk about edge to quarter cloud that edge computing dynamic which is will include both data you know infrastructure and hard PC hardware at the edges an interesting dynamic so we think the evolution continues to evolve and the PC business stays healthy for us but yes you're right it's a big business but it's a great cash flow built at the same time if that if John if that edge becomes a tailwind for you guys I mean essentially there's an oligopoly Michael Michael is all Michael was saying the edges where the games going to be in ten years I would just iterate add one thing to your comment about the client businesses I think one i 100% agree I think the Alienware booth here is a canary in the coal mine if you talk to any of the younger generation gamers they have this phrase called pcmr which stands for PC master-race there's a shift back to the PC because of gaming mm-hm and they all want their rigs and they want horsepower they're into the tap yeah so the ease of use and simplifying the tech they want the best graph they want rate racing they want I mean they want all these new things so I think there's a whole nother generation to your point anyway back to my question on this a business model issue is that Michaels on yesterday said we're not in the headline in Silicon angle right now says we're not a conglomerate Michael Dell savers the integrated pieces of his growing company so I gotta ask you you know in in the intersection of innovation strategy business model innovation and financial and strategy you gotta have a financial strategy at overlays innovation strategy as well as the business model how would you describe the financial strategy of Dell technologies and how does that overlay directly on top of the innovation strategy and the business model look alright smile to man job is to help Michael to build his vision and fulfill his vision the subset of that is what's the job of a what what does a company do it's all about creating value and shareholder value so the overall a financial strategy and framework is shareholder value creation right and you step down from that you say how do you create value you create value these would be better capabilities better products and solutions how do you do that then you get into a capital allocation conversation on how much am I going to allocate of my capital to innovation to R&D how much a value creation is going to come through debt pay down to your point you know if you look at the levers we're pulling right now and how and simplified capital structures I should also say so the leaveners we're pulling right now are all those levers right we're pulling a let me build the innovation the integrated capabilities this concept of it we've got great capabilities across the family of Dell technologies how do we integrate them how do I create solutions that you customers want at the same point in time I'm pricing those effectively I'm creating cash generation that allows me to reinvest in the business and also pay down debt that ultimately drives shareholder value right yeah and this conglomerate come I thought was relevant because I don't see you as a conglomerate if you look at the success of say Amazon Web Services as part of Amazon almost half their revenues now that's one large distributed computer basically I mean it's integrated parts of a lot of things as an operating environment operating system so you've said on the cube that is a model you guys have a similar approach you're looking at the holistic picture of Dell technologies as an operating model with synergies and systems not this divisions pumping out all this cash they're siloed it's the integrations of key part comment on that piece yeah look I mean you know I've we've been we've been having this pushing on this conglomerate thing now for awhile right in the sense up we've got certain investors in certain analysts and that think about well you've got all these piece parts in you but these piece parts don't run independently they're integrated what we're using joint selling activity joint solution capability and development to sell to we sell technology right I'm not selling engines and lightbulbs and appliances right I'm selling technology to a set of buyers that are consuming that technology in an integrated fashion and that's how we're going to market and that's how we're building solutions to them and so look we're gonna you're going to continue to hear us push on that theme because I think it's an important theme that people need to understand about what we're trying to do but you know and so work that drives evaluation conversation which has been you know Andy jassie CEO of Amazon told me once on the queue you gotta be able to myth being misunderstood for a while before people figure it out but what's your free cash flow down to three billion you're throwing off what's the number there a lot of cash yeah I mean you're you're it's higher than that but when you throw in VMware thrown beware your your cash flow from ops is roughly riding around seven billion dollars right so you can't go on a business if you don't run out of cash all right that's why we talk about cash no word we're good but you know we're also thing about cash right so look I mean I think we're just going to continue to run the business right we've got to go execute the business it's a challenging you know it's always a competitive environment out there but you know that's our job is to go execute the business macro questions so I think I heard from you Tom this week that IDC has the IT market growing at 2x GDP and I'm thinking about the same hmm how is that you know are people gonna start spending more on AI technology as a percentage of revenue maybe but then I'm thinking what they're spending a lot today on labor yeah and I think what's happening is they're shifting a lot of those labor into technology and they're eliminating some of those labor costs and with that shift is that a plausible premise yeah I think I think it is but I also think that companies are thinking about their business model now and you've seen and you guys know this you're in the middle of all this you've seen a generational shift on IT used to be in the background that said hey go you know go roll up the numbers and pay the people and Peyton you know pay the bills and don't think about the business you know that's a simplification but now it's about how is technology used to differentiate my business model to capture new customers to give you a new experience to give you a competitive advantage and what's interesting for us is that these conversations are not just with CIOs there were Co CF CEO CFOs and so this investment cycle that's here is pretty interesting for us right and so look you asked me about the macro you know it's not a year ago what were we all talking about global synchronous growth right remember that a course we're not really talking about that right now there's you know there's pressure points around the globe depending upon where you are and and it's just a different environment so it is a bit choppier out there I mean I think the macro thing is to me is yeah I'm not as in the weeds as much you guys are but you got consolidation value creation and you guys saw with that big plan and then you got an exploding data ai business happening in the marketplace that's showing customers that they could actually reinvest and do new things drive new revenue source model expansions on the customer side as well as a massive tailwind of course cloud computing you could do it faster so between all these things that's a nice pop for you guys well the technology trends are clearly headed our way right you know there's data being created everywhere you got to do something with that data you got to store it you got to compute it if you want to get analytics and insight and so all of these things are sort of lining up now look I don't want to oversell that because we all know this this business is you know you got to go out and compete every day and to win but it's it's an interesting time are you increasing your spend on technology as a percentage of revenue or you know you know if you're talking about the R&D spend it's rough about four-and-a-half percent of my revenue right now so his revenues going up we're spending more money in IIT oh okay and might in my own tech we're up we're up right as a percentage yes okay digital transformation your premise is people are going to spend more as a percentage on tech because the return is higher but being a good CFO I'm also squeezing my guys in other you keep them in line right congratulations again on you your team Michael creating great shareholder value I still Dave still thinks it's undervalued he'll continue and I think he's right on that thanks for coming on spend your very valuable time sharing this summary of what's going on here at the Dell technology world thanks for being here guys and it's always fun to talk to you thanks great car tops we CFO chief financial officer of Dell technologies getting inside the numbers talking about the strategy how it all relates to customer impacts the cue bringing you all the action day three of coverage we'll be right back after this short break I'm sure for a devil on thing [Music]