>> theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Lisa Martin: Good afternoon everyone. theCUBE live in Barcelona, Spain at MWC23. Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson. Day three of our wall-to-wall coverage of four days of CUBE content. I know, it's amazing. We're going to have a great conversation next with DISH and Dell, talking about the value of automation and telecom for 5G. Please welcome Song Toh, Senior Director of Product Management Infrastructure Automation at Dell. And Sidd Chenumolu, VP of Technology Development at DISH. Guys, great to have you on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you, it's a pleasure. >> So let's go ahead and start with you. We know that DISH is developing its own open cloud native 5G network from the ground up. Talk to us about before you were working with Dell, what the situation was like and why you brought Dell in to help drive the innovation. >> Ah, that's a good question. So, three years ago we started the journey, and one thing that was very clear to us is that we want to work with the partners who are going to be the leaders in this space. And it was very clear we are going to be in the cloud side- we are going to be in hybrid cloud, we are going to have our own data centers. Everything that we built is going to replicate a cloud model. 'Cause it was very, like we said, what is 5G? Fundamentally, if you think about 5G, right? Everyone says people talk about speeds. Okay, get it. But it's also about vertical industries. It's about customization of a network, application driven network. That's the way I call it, because if you walk around the floor right now, everyone's talking about monetization of 5G, everyone keeps doing enterprise. So you put two and two together, what do you get? That means you have to work with the leaders who have been serving enterprises forever, who know the enterprises' pain, they know all the problem statements. So we said, "okay, let's see who's out there and who can help us." And then obviously, Dell comes to the picture. So we had a good conversation, there was an alignment in where Dell wanted to go long-term, so we saw synergies. So we had a vision, we needed their help. They wanted to get into this space too. So there was an agreement, let's do it together. And it's been a good partnership since then. >> What were some of the challenges that you had at that time? Going, "we've got some challenges here, some risks, we want to move DISH forward and automate." Talk about some of those challenges that helped you understand, "Yeah, Dell's the right partner for this." >> Oh, first is when we started this, right? I'll be honest, I don't think we anticipated the complexity. We didn't know what we didn't know. So initially it was learning from Dell, who was more like teaching us, "this is what you're going to see, this is how it's going to look like". And then we started bringing the telco aspects on top of it. So it was not like, "I'm going to build a 5G". We said, "no, Dell, tell me what does the data center look like? Tell me the day-to-day challenges. How do you bring a server in? How the rack looks like, what are the connectivity?" So, learning, then you bring the telco as an application, it was not like a telco first. It was like a software first, infrastructure second, now you bring in the telco part of it. So, I mean, challenges I would say, right? Everything was new, pretty much across the board for us. It was not just one thing. We were doing Open RAN, which was a brand new cloud native, was completely new. 5G standalone was new. No one had done that before, and (mumbles) was hybrid cloud. So I think we were on a stool sitting on the, with the four legs, all were wobbly. (laughs) We made it. So, automation was definitely the key. We knew we had to go at a scale, because we are in FCC deployment, we are meeting like- we will be at covering 230 million pops by June of this year. So, aggressive timelines- >> Dave Nicholson: Wait, say that again. How many, so say that ag- how many? >> 230 million. >> And, pops being points of presence? >> No, sorry, population. U. S.- >> Oh, population. Okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Okay, okay. >> Okay. I'm sorry, I'm- >> So, very aggressive buildout for us. >> Wow. >> And automation has to be the key for it, because we just cannot- first is, we cannot scale a company. We are a startup. This wireless is a startup. That's how we started with a handful of people. We obviously hired a lot of people since then, but we said, "we will never be at the scale of the existing CSPs today." We can't. Time is not on our side, and we don't want to be at that scale anyway, 'cause we want to be nimble, move fast. So what do you need? Automation. Automation at every layer. And it's a journey. Never stops. >> No, it doesn't stop. >> Oh yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, she's- >> Go ahead and get a question in. I don't want to hog. >> So when most people hear DISH, they think of streaming content, they think of alternative to cable provider. >> Sidd: Yeah. >> In that space. But just clarify for us all of the things that DISH is involved with today, and what DISH aspires to be involved with as we move forward. >> Good question. We want to be in the connectivity space. We want to connect everything. That's our goal, our mission statement. We started with the satellite, since then we moved on to the IPTV Sling, which is a leader. So we are not afraid to take risks, right? So what we own- we own satellites, we know content delivery very well. I think we are done there for many years. We agreed to that. Now we said, "now we understand wireless". What we want to do is, we want to deliver the data to the customers, and whether it could be videos, it could be audio data, like voice, anything, or it could be a machine. We just want to be in the connectivity space of connecting everything, and based on- you look around, right? It's all about connectivity. Everything requires connectivity. It's all about data monetization, and we want to be there in every aspect of it. >> Connectivity is almost the lifeblood these days of everything that we do, right? >> Sidd: Yep. >> Song: Indeed. >> And of every industry. Song, talk a little bit about the DISH Wireless use case. How some of their challenges in telco really maybe helped even Dell accelerate its presence in telco. >> Absolutely, right. I think one thing that Sidd mentioned, right, 230 million populations, but what does that translate to in terms of infrastructure deployment? 'Cause he said it's a startup. They started from not a whole lot in terms of coverage. So, in terms of 5G deployment, whether it's virtualized or open RAN, there needs to be distributed infrastructure that covers the entire United States, right? A certain percentage of the population is still a huge amount of coverage. So deploy tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of servers around the country, get them set up, get 'em configured, and maintain and monitor and meter all of that. We help DISH to essentially roll that out, get it going, and then they deploy their RAN workload on top. I mean, that's a very significant undertaking. We were very proud to be able to offer our Bare Metal Orchestrator to facilitate that, but ultimately their success is their success. We are there to help, right? We are partnered, and we- happy to definitely be able to say we got to a point that we are happy, you know, in claims of success there. >> Well, that's why we selected Dell. >> Thank you. (chuckles) >> Let's unpack a little bit of some of the successes, some of the outcomes that you've achieved so far, working with Dell. >> Let me give an example. Today we have an ability to upgrade, update, even swap a RAN vendor overnight. Entire market, unheard of overnight. Give me hours, I'll do the entire thing for you from scratch. We can instantiate entire data center racks remotely in a matter of minutes. Cannot do that without automation, and with the help- >> Lisa Martin: Couldn't do it before. >> We have curated an extraordinary, what you call orchestration mechanism of finely tuned data sets and pipelines. It's like a machine. It keeps spinning. It's very good. And again, not something that happened overnight. Took us several months to get there with a lot of our partners, and Dell was there. >> Song: Right. >> I'd be curious to get your perspectives, each of you, on some of the buzz that was going on around the show where the telecom, "plumbing providers"- >> Sidd: Yep. >> have complained about the content streaming through, and maybe they need to charge more for access, and Netflix hit back and said, "well, hold on a minute. You wouldn't have anything to deliver to your customers if it weren't for the content we are producing. Maybe we need licensing fees from you." >> Song: (chuckles) >> What is your view on that, in terms of this whole over the top conversation? DISH seems sort of, kind of in a hybrid position there. >> Well, it's a very complex question. I think everyone is struggling with it, so I'm not sure if I have the right answer for it. We are definitely unique because we own the content too. We want to offer- we probably may offer our own content over the wireless service. There is a pros and cons. I mean, purely from a, as a M&O service provider, it's a lot of effort and cost for us to deliver huge amount of bandwidth. But again, the networks are being built to handle huge capacity. So if you don't have video, what do we do? That's also a realistic question. I think there is a mechanism where the cost and the value both have to be shared. So that it's a win-win for everyone. It's not lopsided to one. And said, "you carry most of the cost", and I'm transparent, it doesn't work that way long term. And especially given the 5G side, with all the slicing capabilities and ability to offer QoS, better quality of experience, I think there's a value to be created here. >> If you look at the infrastructure necessary to drive all of these things- >> Right. >> We've seen, just go back to our own consumer experience with the internet. We've gone from text to images to video. >> Song: Right. >> To high definition video. >> Sidd: Yeah. >> To, is 8K video absurd? Do we really need to be able to handle that? What are the things that need to be supported as we move forward? Is it that we scale out into this world of billions and billions of things that are connected? Or are there these much bigger, fatter pipelines for things like 8K video or it a combination of the two? What is Dell thinking of when it thinks of the infrastructure that it builds and how you customize that- >> Song: Right. >> to address those things? What's on the horizon? >> Dave, I think that's a very good question, right? Certainly communication service providers like DISH has built out the capacity to handle the customers that they want to serve. But there's another aspect of this I think I'd like to add on top of the question you posed, it's not about say, 10, say a thousand streams of 8K. I would need to be able to handle that. I think the present challenge right now is really, say there's a sports stadium that you need to activate so that, not about everyone filming that sports game, it's about, "Hey, I got to tell my, whoever- I got a 10 seconds video clip that I got to share with my friends." It's also not about copyright. It's more about- >> Dave Nicholson: (laughs) >> can you as a provider- >> The NFL is listening. >> Exactly. Can you as a provider handle that service? Because otherwise your customers say, "oh, I got into the sports stadium, every time I could not even text my daughter." >> Dave Nicholson: Yeah. >> So, how do you then scale up the infrastructure as needed, the bandwidth as needed, and scale back down when it's not? Maybe, because the infrastructure can potentially be repurposed for a different workload too. That requires automation, right? From bottom to top, all the way, infrastructure - all the way up to the workload. And that's I think a question that people are starting to ask. I'm not sure. I mean, still you guys have thought about that too as a- >> I mean, instant gratification is the new thing, right? Everyone wants instant response, everyone feedback, everything. So connectivity is given. I do think there is a space for both billions of devices and the 8K and probably 16K in the future. It's going to happen in the technology walls. That's why I like, say, the 5G, and especially the way we architect our own network. We call it network of networks. I'm not designing a network that is only for one monolithic application or one stack only. We are actually programmable network, because I know network A is for 8K. Network B is for IOT, network C is for regular, network D is for something else. And the list can keeps on growing. I don't think we can stifle innovation at any level and said, "well you can't do this because we are not ready." World is going to move too fast. Technology is too fast for all of us. >> But do you have to prioritize? >> If there is a business for- it's all top-down driven, not much of a technology driven. If there's a business, someone said there's a value to be made, it's prioritized. >> What's your - Sidd, we'll stick with you, your observations. This is day three of MWC 23. Lot of talk here on disaggregation. A lot of talk about open RAN, a lot of talk about private 5G wireless networks, but also some controversy. You brought up the Netflix controversy. >> Dave: Yep. >> What are some of the messages that you've heard so far from this event - and then, Song, we'll ask you the same question - that excite you about the direction that the industry's going and where DISH Wireless stands within it? >> Yeah. I mean, I didn't have a chance to walk the floor, but for wherever I have been in the last two and a half days, one thing that stood out is people are no longer talking about gigabits capacity anymore. They're talking about monetization of the network. Everyone is talking APIs now. >> Lisa Martin: Yeah. >> That's the buzzword. If I said monetization, API- I got a beautiful network not tell me how to make money off it and how do I work with each other? It's no longer about "I want to own it all." What can I do to partner with A, partner with B? How can we all grow together? I think that's the theme that I see this year compared to the previous years, where it was always about like, "hey, build the best 5G network with the high speeds, big radios." I don't even see radios, by the way. >> Lisa Martin: (chuckles) >> Interesting. Yeah. So the actual, it's almost fascinating when you toil in obscurity to build these critical components and then people ignore you. So I feel for the radio people. >> Song: (laughs) Being a long-term infrastructure guy, what have you been seeing here that's interesting? >> Well, a few things that I feel quite excited about from the conversation I've had. One is, on the private mobility side, Lisa, as you said, I'm seeing certainly customers, partners, and even in the booth talking about what the use cases are, right? Rather than, "Hey, here's a cool technology." But actually, people talking about use cases now. And, with the communication service providers and the operators, I'm hearing - of course, I mean, Sidd's doesn't have that problem because it's building whole new, >> (chuckles) >> but there are other providers that are saying, "Hey, we acknowledge that we need to transform and we are on the way too", rather than saying, "can I not do it and still, you know, live with the modern world." So I feel that we always need to be ready to change, because the world, the market, and all other factors will cause us to either change or really to change. And I think we are changing. Open system is becoming more of a expected, you know, future. It's just how do we get there, right? What do we need to learn as we get there? And we're happy to provide the support as a partner, the automation technology, and even the solutions to enable that, from Dell's perspective. >> So DISH in particular? DISH Wireless. >> Yep. >> Despite the fact that everyone's heard of DISH. >> Song: Yeah. >> DISH has been around for a long time. Where you sit within DISH Wireless, you described it as a startup. You don't feel encumbered by a lot of the legacy things that maybe some other providers do. Is that a fair statement or are you having to navigate that? We call it ambidextrous management >> (laughs) >> in the CTO world, where it's like, got to keep the lights on, got to keep the existing revenue flowing, also got to innovate. How do you blend the two? Is that a challenge? >> Well, probably not a challenge for me. I'm on the wireless technology and architecture side, so I get to do the cool stuff. >> Dave Nicholson: Okay. >> Don't have to worry about day to day operations, some complexity or revenue. Someone else is managing that complex part. They let me play with my toys. >> Well played, well played. >> Guys, it's been great having you on the program talking about what DISH Wireless is doing with Dell. Thanks to Dell. We're going to be watching this space to see how you continue to innovate. Thank you so much for joining us on the program. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> Our pleasure. >> For our guests and for Dave Nicholson. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live from MWC 23. Stick around. Our next guest joins Dave and me in just a minute. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of ADA reinvent 2021 here, the cube coverage. I'm Judd for a, your host we're on the ground with two sets on the floor, real event. Of course, it's hybrid. It's online as well. You can check it out there. All the on-demand replays are there. We're here with Sandy Carter, worldwide vice president, public sector partners and programs. And we've got Fred Swanick, her founder, and chief curator of the room. We're talking about getting the best talent programming and in the cloud, doing great things, innovation all happening, Sandy. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on the cube, but appreciate it. Thanks for halfway to see. Okay. So tell us about the room. What is the room what's going on? >>Um, well, I mentioned in the room is to help the world's most extraordinary do us to fulfill their potential. So, um, it's a community of exceptional talent that we are building throughout the world, um, and connecting this talent to each other and connecting them to the organizations that are looking for people who can really move the needle for those organizations. >>So what kind of results are you guys seeing right now? Give us some stats. >>Well, it's a, it's a relatively new concept. So we're about 5,000 members so far, um, from 77 different countries. Um, and this is, you know, we're talking about sort of the top two to 3% of talent in different fields. Um, and, um, as we go forward, you know, we're really looking, seeing this as an opportunity to curate, um, exceptional talent. Um, and it feels like software engineering, data science, UX, UI design, cloud computing, um, and, uh, it really helped to, um, identify diverse talent as well from pockets that have typically been untapped for technology. Okay. >>I want to ask you kind of, what's the, how you read the tea leaves. How do I spot the talent, but first talk about the relationship with Amazon. What's the program together? How you guys working together? It's a great mission. I mean, we need more people anyway, coding everywhere, globally. What's the AWS connection. >>So Fred and I met and, uh, he had this, I mean the brilliant concept of the room. And so, uh, obviously you need to run that on the cloud. And so he's got organizations he's working at connecting them through the room and kind of that piece that he was needing was the technology. So we stepped in to help him with the technology piece because he's got all the subject matter expertise to train 3 million Africans, um, coming up on tech, we also were able to provide him some of the classwork as well for the cloud computing models. So some of those certs and things that we want to get out into the marketplace as well, we're also helping Fred with that as well. So >>I mean, want to, just to add onto that, you know, one of the things that's unique about the room is that we're trying to really build a long-term relationship with talent. So imagine joining the room as a 20 year old and being part of it until you're 60. So you're going to have a lot of that. You collect on someone as they progress through different stages of their career and the ability for us to leverage that data, um, and continuously learn about someone's, you know, skills and values and use, um, predictive algorithms to be able to match them to the right opportunities at the right time of their lives. And this is where the machine learning comes in and the, you know, the data lake that we're building to build to really store this massive data that we're going to be building on the top talent to the world. >>You know, that's a really good point. It's a list that's like big trend in tech where it's, it's still it's over the life's life of the horizon of the person. And it's also blends community, exactly nurturing, identifying, and assisting. But at the same day, not just giving people the answer, they got to grow on their own, but some people grow differently. So again, progressions are nonlinear sometimes and creativity can come out of nowhere. Got it. Uh, which brings me up to my number one question, because this always was on my mind is how do you spot talent? What's the secret sauce? >>Well, there is no real secret source because every person is unique. So what we look for are people who have an extra dose of five things, courage, passion, resilience, imagination, and good values, right? And this is what we're looking for. And you will someone who is unusually driven to achieve great things. Um, so of course, you know, you look at it from a combination of their, their training, you know, what they, what they've learned, but also what they've actually done in the workplace and feedback that you get from previous employers and data that we collect through our own interactions with this person. Um, and so we screened them through, you know, with the town that we had, didn't fly, we take them through really rigorous selection process. So, um, it takes, uh, for example, people go through an online assessments and then they go through an in-person interview and then we'll take them through a one to three month bootcamp to really identify, you know, people who are exceptional and of course get data from different sources about the person as well. >>Sandy, how do you see this collaboration helping, uh, your other clients? I mean, obviously talent, cross pollinates, um, learnings, what's your, you see this level of >>It has, uh, you know, AWS grows, obviously we're going to need more talent, especially in Africa because we're growing so rapidly there and there's going to be so much talent available in Africa here in just a few short years. Most of the tech talent will be in Africa. I think that that's really essential, but also as looking after my partners, I had Fred today on the keynote explaining to all my partners around the world, 55,000 streaming folks, how they can also leverage the room to fill some of their roles as well. Because if you think about it, you know, we heard from Presidio there's 3 million open cyber security roles. Um, you know, we're training 20 of mine million cloud folks because we have a gap. We see a gap around the world. And part of my responsibility with partners is making sure that they can get access to the right skills. And we're counting on the room and what Fred has produced to produce some of those great skills. You have AI, AML and dev ops. Tell us some of the areas you haven't. >>You know, we're looking at, uh, business intelligence, data science, um, full-stack software engineering, cybersecurity, um, you know, IOT talent. So fields that, um, the world needs a lot more talented. And I think today, a lot of technology, um, talent is moving from one place to another and what we need is new supply. And so what the room is doing is not only a community of top 10, but we're actually producing and training a lot more new talent. And that was going to hopefully, uh, remove a key bottleneck that a lot of companies are facing today as they try to undergo the digital trends. >>Well, maybe you can add some hosts on there. We need some cube hosts, come on, always looking for more talent on the set. You could be there. >>Yeah. The other interesting thing, John, Fred and I on stage today, he was talking about how easy to the first narrative written for easy to was written by a gentleman out of South Africa. So think about that right. ECE to talent. And he was talking about Ian Musk is based, you know, south African, right? So think about all the great talent that exists. There. There you go. There you go. So how do you get access to that talent? And that's why we're so excited to partner with Fred. Not only is he wicked impressive when a time's most influential people, but his mission, his life purpose has really been to develop this great talent. And for us, that gets us really excited because we, yeah, >>I think there's plenty of opportunities to around new business models in the U S for instance, um, my friends started upstart, which they were betting on people almost like a stock market. You know, almost like currency will fund you and you pay us back. And there's all kinds of gamification techniques that you can start to weave into the system. Exactly. As you get the flywheel going, exactly, you can look at it holistically and say, Hey, how do we get more people in and harvest the value of knowledge? >>That's exactly. I mean, one of the elements of the technology platform that we developed to the Amazon with AWS is the room intelligence platform. And in there is something called legacy points. So every time you, as a member of the room, give someone else an opportunity. You invest in their venture, you hire them, you mentor them, you get points and you can leverage those points for some really cool experiences, right? So you want to game-ify um, this community that is, uh, you know, essentially crowdsourcing opportunities. And you're not only getting things from the room, but you're also giving to others to enable everyone to grow. >>Yeah, what's the coolest thing you've seen. And this is a great initiative. First of all, it's a great model. I think it's, this is the future. Cause I'm a big believer that communities groups, as we get into this hybrid world is going to open up the virtualization. What the virtual world has shown us is virtualization, which is a cloud technology when Amazon started with Zen, which is virtualization technology, but virtualization, conceptually is replicating things. So if you think hybrid world, you can blend the connect people together. So now you have this social construct, this connective tissue between relationships, and it's always evolving, you know, this and you've been involved in community from, from, from the early days when you have that social evolution, it's not software as a mechanism. It's a human thing. Exactly. It's organism, it evolves. And so if you can get the software to think like that and the group to drive the behavior, it's not community software. >>Exactly. I mean, we say that the room is not an online community. It's really an offline community powered by technology. So our vision is to actually have physical rooms in different cities around the world, whether it's talent gathers, but imagine showing up at a, at a room space and we've got the technology to know what your interests are. We know that you're working on a new venture and there's this, there's a venture capitalists in that area, investing that venture, we can connect you right then that space powered by the, >>And then you can have watch parties. For instance, there's an event going on in us. You can do some watch parties and time shifted and then re replicated online and create a localization, but yet have that connection in >>Present. Exactly, exactly. Exactly. So what are the >>Learnings, what's your big learning share with the audience? What you've learned, because this is really kind of on the front edge of the new kind of innovation we're seeing, being enabled with software. >>I mean, one thing we're learning is that, uh, talent is truly, uh, evenly distribute around the world, but what is not as opportunity. And so, um, there's some truly exceptional talent that is hidden and on tap today. And if we can, you know, and, and today with the COVID pandemic companies or around the world, a lot more open to hiring more talent. So there's a huge opportunity to access new talent from, from sources that haven't been tapped before. Well, but also learnings the power of blending, the online and offline world. So, um, you know, the room is, as I mentioned, brings people together, normally in line, but also offline. And so when you're able to meet talent and actually see someone's personality and get a sense of the culture fit the 360 degree for your foot, some of that, you can't just get on a LinkedIn. Yes. That I built it to make a decision, to hire someone who is much better. And finally, we're also learning about the importance of long-term relationships. One of my motives in the room is relationships not transactions where, um, you actually get to meet someone in an environment where they're not pretending in an interview and you get to really see who they are and build relationships with them before you need to hide them. And these are some really unique ways that we think we can redefine how talent finds opportunity in the 21st. So >>You can put a cube in every room, we pick >>You up because, >>And the cube, what we do here is that when people collaborate, whether they're doing an interview together, riffing and sharing content is creating knowledge, but that shared experience creates a bonding. So when you have that kind of mindset and this room concept where it's not just resume, get a job, see you later, it's learning, having peers and colleagues and people around you, and then seeing them in a journey, multiple laps around the track of humans >>And going through a career, not just a job. >>Yes, exactly. And then, and then celebrating the ups and downs in learning. It's not always roses, as you know, it's always pain before you accelerate. >>Exactly. And you never quite arrive at your destination. You're always growing, and this is where technology can really play. >>Okay. So super exciting. Where's this go next, Sandy. And next couple of minutes left in. >>So, um, one of the things that we've envisioned, so this is not done yet, but, um, Fred and I imagined like, what if you could have an Alexa set up and you could say, Hey, you know, Alexa, what should be my next job? Or how should I go train? Or I'm really interested in being on a Ted talk. What could I do having an Alexa skill might be a really cool thing to do. And with the great funding that Fred Scott and you should talk about the $400 million to that, he's already raised $400 million. I mean, there, I think the sky's the limit on platforms. Like >>That's a nice chunk of change. There it is. We've got some fat financing as they say, >>But, well, it's a big mission. So to request significant resources, >>Who's backing you guys. What's the, who's the, where's the money coming from? >>It's coming from, um, the MasterCard foundation. They, our biggest funder, um, as well as, um, some philanthropists, um, and essentially these are people who truly see the potential, uh, to unlock, um, opportunity for millions of people global >>For Glen, a global scale. The vision has global >>Executive starting in Africa, but truly global. Our vision is eventually to have a community of about 10 to 20 million of the most extraordinary doers in the world, in this community, and to connect them to opportunity >>Angela and diverse John. I mean, this is the other thing that gets me excited because innovation comes from diversity of thought and given the community, we'll have so many diverse individuals in it that are going to get trained and mentored to create something that is amazing for their career as well. That really gets me excited too, as well as Amazon website, >>Smart people, and yet identifying the fresh voices and the fresh minds that come with it, all that that comes together, >>The social capital that they need to really accelerate their impact. >>Then you read the room and then you get wherever you need. Thanks so much. Congratulations on your great mission. Love the room. Um, you need to be the in Cuban, every room, you gotta get those fresh voices out there. See any graduates on a great project, super exciting. And SageMaker, AI's all part of, it's all kind of, it's a cool wave. It's fun. Can I join? Can I play? I tell you I need a room. >>I think he's top talent. >>Thanks so much for coming. I really appreciate your insight. Great stuff here, bringing you all the action and knowledge and insight here at re-invent with the cube two sets on the floor. It's a hybrid event. We're in person in Las Vegas for a real event. I'm John ferry with the cube, the leader in global tech coverage. Thanks for watching.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of Dell Technologies. World Digital experience brought to you by Dell Technologies. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to the cubes coverage of Del Tech World 2020 the virtual del tech world. Of course, the virtual queue with me is Alison Do. She's the CMO and a member of the executive leadership team at Dell Technologies. Hey there, Alison. Good to see you. >>Hi, David. Good to see you too. I'm gonna see you alive, but it's so good to see on the feed. >>Yeah, I miss you, too. You know, it's been it's been tough, but we're getting through it and, you know, it's a least with technology. We're able to meet this way and, you know, for us continue the cube for you to continue del Tech world, reaching out to your to your customers. But, you know, maybe we could start there. It's like I said the other day else into somebody. I feel like everybody I know in the technology industry has also become a covert expert in the last six months. But but, you know, it changed so much. But I'm interested in well, first of all, you're a great communicator. I have met many, many members of your team. They're really motivated group. How did you handle the pandemic? Your communications. Uh, did you increase that? Did you? Did you have to change anything? Or maybe not. Because like I say, you've always been a great communicator with a strong team. What was your first move? >>Eso There's obviously there's many audiences that we serve through communications, but in this instance, the two most important our customers and our team members. So I'll take the customers first. You have likely seen the spoof Real's Going Around the Internet of Here's How Not to Talk to Customers, Right? So you saw early in February and March in April, all of these communications that started with in these troubled times We are here to help you and, you know, we're already in a crisis every single day, all day long. I don't think people needed to be reminded that there was a crisis happening. So you've got this one end where it's over crisis mongering and the other side where it was just ignoring the crisis. And so what we did was we really looked at all of our communications a new So, for example, in our small business space, we were just about I mean days away from launching a campaign that was about celebrating the success of small businesses. It's a beautiful piece of creative. I love it, and we made the very tough decision to put that work on the shelf and not launch it. Why? Because it would have been incredibly tone deaf in a moment where small businesses were going out of business and under incredible struggle to have a campaign that was celebrating their success. It just wouldn't have worked. And what we did very quickly was a new piece of creative that had our own small business advisers, lower production values, them working from home and talking about how they were helping customers. But frankly, even that then has a shelf life, because ultimately you have to get back to your original story. So as we thought about our own communications, my own leadership team and I went through every single piece of creative toe. Look for what's appropriate now what's tone deaf, and that was a very heavy lift and something that we had to continue to do and I'm really proud of the work. We did pivot quickly, then on the employee side. If you'd asked me in January, was Team member Communications the most important thing I was doing? I would have said It's an important thing I'm doing and I care deeply about it, But it's not the most important thing I'm doing. Where there was a period from probably February to June where I would have said it became the most important thing that I was doing because we had 120,000 people pivot over a weekend toe. Working from home, you had all of the demands of home schooling, the chaos that stress whilst also were obviously trying to keep a business running. So this engagement with our employees and connecting the connecting with them through more informal means, like zoom meetings with Michael and his leadership team, where once upon a time we would have had a more high value production became a key piece of what we did. So it sounds so easy, but this increase of the frequency with our own employees, while also being really honest with ourselves about the tone of those communications, so that's what we did and continue to dio >>Well, you've done a good job and you struck a nice balance. I mean, you weren't did see some folks ambulance chasing and it was a real turn off. Or like you said, sometimes tone deaf. And we can all look back over history and see, you know, so many communications disasters like you say, people being tone deaf or ignoring something. It was sloughing it off, and then it really comes back to bite them. Sometimes security breaches air like that. So it seems like Dell has I don't know, there's a methodology. I don't know if you use data or it's just a lot of good good experience. How have you been able to sort of nail it? I guess I would say is it is. >>But there's some secret method that I'm cautiously optimistic. And the superstitious part of me is like, Don't say that, Okay, I'm not gonna would alright eso so that it's it's both it z experience, obviously. And then what? I What I talk a lot about is this intersection of data versus did data and creativity, and you spend a lot of time in marketing circles. Those two things can be sometimes pitched is competing with each other. Oh, it's all about the creativity, or it's all about the data. And I think that's a silly non argument. And it should be both things And this this time like this. This point that I make about ambulance chasing and not re traumatizing people every single day by talking about in these troubled times is actually from a piece of research that we did, if you believe it or not. In 2008 during the middle of the global financial crisis, when we started to research some of our creative, we found that some of the people who have seen our creative were actually less inclined to buy Dell and less positive about Dell. Why? Because we started with those really hackneyed lines of in these troubled times. And then we went on to talk about how we could take out I t costs and were targeted at I T makers, who basically we first played to their fear function and they said, and now we're going to put you out of a job, right? So there's this years of learning around where you get this sweet spot from a messaging perspective to talk about customer outcomes while also talking about what you do is a company, and keeping the institutional knowledge is knowledge of those lessons and building and refining over time. And so that's why I think we've been able to pivot as quickly as we have is because we've been data driven and had a creative voice for a very long time. The other piece that has helped us be fast is that we've spent the last 2.5 3 years working on bringing our own data, our own customer data internally after many, many years of having that with the third party agency. So all the work we had to do to retarget to re pivot based on which verticals were being successful in this time and which were not we were able to now due in a matter of hours, something that would have taken us weeks before. So there's places where it's about the voice of who we are as a brand, and that's a lot of that is creative judgment. And then there's places about institutional knowledge of the data, and then riel getting too real time data analysis where we're on the cusp of doing that. >>Yeah, so I like the way you phrase that it's not just looking at the data and going with some robotic fashion. It reminds me of, you know the book. Michael Lewis, Moneyball, the famous movie, You know, it's like for a while it was it was in baseball, like whoever had the best nerds they thought we were gonna win. But it really is a balance of art and science, and it seems like you're on this journey with your customers together. I mean, how much how much? I mean, I know there's a lot of interaction, but but it seems like you guys are all learning together and evolving together in that regard. >>Absolutely. David, One of the things that has been really interesting to watch is we have had a connected workplace program for 10 years, so we've had flexible work arrangements for a very long time, and one of the things that we have learned from that is a combination of three key factors. The technology, obviously, can you do it? The three culture, and then the process is right. So when you have a the ability to work from home doesn't mean you should work from home 22 out of 24 hours. And that's where culture comes in. And I frankly, that's where this moment of cumulative global stress is so important to realize as a leader and to bring out to the Open and to talk about it. I mean, Michael's talked a lot about this is a marathon. This is not a sprint. We've done a lot of things to support our employees. And so if you think about those three factors and what we've learned, one of the things that we found as we got into the pipe pandemic was on the technology side. Even customers who thought they had business continuity plans in place or thought that they had worked from home infrastructure in place found that they didn't really so there was actually a very quick move to help our customers get the technology that would enable them to keep their businesses running and then on the other two fronts around processes and culture and leadership. We've been ableto have smaller, more intimate conversations with our customers than we would have historically, because frankly, we can bring Michael, Jeff. Other parts of the leadership team me together to have a conversation and one of the benefits of the fact that those of us who've been road warriors for many, many, many years as I know you have a swell suddenly found yourself actually staying in one place. You have time to have that conversation so that we continue to obviously help our customers on the technology front, but also have been able to lean in in a different way on what we've learned over 10 years and what we've learned over this incredibly dramatic eight months, >>you know, and you guys actually have some work from Home Street cred? I think, Del, you're the percentage of folks that were working from home Pre Koven was higher than the norm, significantly higher than normal. Wasn't that long ago that there were a couple of really high profile companies that were mandating come into the office and clear that they were on the wrong side of history? I mean, that surprised me actually on. Do you know what also surprised me? I don't know. I'm just gonna say it is There were two companies run by women, and I would have thought there was more empathy there. Uh, but Dal has always had this culture of Yeah, we were, You know, we could work. We could be productive no matter where. Maybe that's because of the the heritage or your founders. Still still chairman and CEO. I don't know. >>You know those companies and obviously we know who they are. Even at the time, what I thought about them was You don't have a location problem. You have a culture problem and you have a productivity problem and you a trust problem with your employees. And so, yes, I think they are going to be proven to be on the wrong side of history. And I think in those instances they've been on the wrong side of history on many things, sadly, and I hope that will never be us. I don't wanna be mean about that, but but the truth of the matter is one of the other benefits of being more flexible about where and how you work is. It opens up access to different talent pools who may or may not want to live in Austin, Texas, as an example, and that gives you a different way to get a more diverse workforce to get a younger workforce. And I think lots of companies are starting to have that really ization. And, you know, as I said, we've been doing this for 10 years. Even with that context, this is a quantum leap in. Now we're all basically not 100% but mainly all working from home, and we're still learning. So there's an interesting, ongoing lifelong learning that I think is very, very court of the Dell culture. >>I want to ask you about the virtual events you had you had a choice to make. You could have done what many did and said, Okay, we're going to run the event as scheduled, and you would have got a covert Mulligan. I mean, we saw Cem some pretty bad productions, frankly, but that was okay because they had to move fast and they got it done. So in a way, you kind of put more pressure on your yourselves. Andi, I guess you know, we saw this with VM Ware. I guess Was, you know, just recently last >>few >>weeks. Yeah, and so but they kind of raise the bar had great, you know, action with John Legend. So that was really kind of interesting, but, you know, kind of what went into that decision? A Zeiss A. You put more pressure on yourself because now you But you also had compares what? Your thoughts on >>that. So there was a moment in about March where I felt like I was making a multimillion dollar decision every single day. And that was on a personal note, somewhat stressful to kind of wake up and think, What? What? Not just on the events front. But as I said on the creative front, What work that my team has been working on for the last two years? I am I going to destroy today was sort of. I mean, I'm kind of joking, but not entirely how that felt for me personally at the moment. And we had about we made the decision early on to cancel events. We also made the decision quite early on that when we call that, we said we're not going to do any in person events until the end of this calendar year. So I felt good about the definitiveness there. We had about a week where we were still planning to do the virtual world in May and what I did together with my head of communications and head of event is we really sat and looked at the trajectory in the United States, and we thought, this is not gonna be a great moment for the U. S. The week we were supposed to run in May, if you looked at the trajectory of diseases, you would have news be dominated by the fact that we had an increasing spike in number of cases and subsequent deaths. And we just thought that don't just gonna care about our launches. So we had to really, very quickly re pivot that and what I was trying to do was not turn my own organization. So make the decisions start to plan and move on. And at the same time, though, what that then meant is we still have to get product launches out the door. So we did nine virtual launches in nine weeks. That was a big learning learning her for my team. I feel really good about that, and hopefully it helps us. And what I think will be a hybrid future going forward. >>Yeah, so not to generalize, but I've been generalizing about the following. So I've been saying for a while now that a lot >>of the >>marketing people have always wanted to have a greater component of virtual. But, you know, sales guys love the belly. The belly closed the deals, you know? But so where do you land on that? How do you see? You know, the future of events we do, you expect to continue to have ah, strong virtual component. >>I think it's gonna be a hybrid. I think we will never go back to what we did before. I think the same time people do need that human connection. Honestly, I miss seeing the people that I work with face to face. I said at the beginning of this conversation, I would like to be having this discussion with you live and I hate Las Vegas. So I never thought I'd be that interested in, like, let's go to Las Vegas, you know, who knew? But but so I think you'll see a hybrid future going forward. And then we will figure out what those smaller, more direct personal relationship moments are that over the next couple of years you could do more safely and then also frankly give you the opportunity to have those conversations that are more meaningful. So I'm not entirely sure what that looks like. Obviously, we're gonna learn a lot this year with this event, and we're going to continue to build on it. But there's places in the world if you look at what we've done in China for many, many, many years, we have held on over abundance of digital events because of frankly, just the size of the population and the the geographic complexity. And so there are places that even early into this, we could say, Well, we've already done this in China. How do we take that and apply it to the rest of the world? So that's what we're working through now. That's actually really exciting, >>You know, when you look at startups, it's like two things matter the engineering and sales and that's all anything else is a waste of money in their minds when you and and all they talk about is Legion Legion Legion. You don't hear that from a company like Dell because you have so many other channels on ways Thio communicate with your customers and engage with your customers. But of course, legions important demand. Gen. Is important. Do you feel like virtual events can be a Z effective? Maybe it's a longer tail, but can they be as productive as the physical events? >>So one thing that I've always been a little bit cantankerous on within marketing circles is I refuse to talk about it in terms of Brand versus Li Jen, because I think that's a false argument. And the way I've talked about it with my own team is there are things that we do that yield short term business results, maybe even in corridor in half for a year. And there are things that we do that lead to long term business results. First one is demand, and the second one is more traditional brand. But we have to do both. We have to think about our legacy as a known primarily for many, many years as a PC maker. In order for us to be successful in the business businesses that we are in now, we love our PC heritage. I grew up in that business, but we also want to embrace the other parts of their business and educate people about the things that we do that they may not even know, right? So that's a little bit of context in terms of you got to do both. You got to tell your story. You've got to change perceptions and you got to drive demand in quarter. So the interesting things about digital events is we can actually reach more people than we ever could in an in person world. So I think that expands the pie for both the perceptions and long term and short term. And I hope what we are more able to do effectively because of that point that I made about our own internal marketing digital transformation is connect those opportunities to lead and pass them off to sales more effectively. We've done a lot of work on the plumbing on the back end of that for the last couple of years, and I feel really fortunate that we did that because I don't think we'd be able to do what we're doing now. If we hadn't invested there, >>Well, it's interesting. You're right. I mean, Del of course, renowned during the PC era and rode that wave. And then, of course, the AMC acquisition one of the most amazing transformations, if not the most amazing transformation in the history of the computer industry. But when you when you look to the future and of course, we're hearing this week about as a service and you new pricing models, just new mindsets I look at and I wonder if you could comment, I look at Dell's futures, you know, not really a product company. You're becoming a platform. Essentially, for for digital transformation is how I look atyou. Well, how do you see the brand message going forward? >>Absolutely. I think that one of the things that's really interesting about Dell is that we have proven our ability to constantly and consistently reinvent ourselves, and I won't go through the whole thing. But if you look at started as a direct to consumer company, then went into servers then and started to go into small business meeting business a little bit about when private acquired e. M. C. I mean, we are a company who is always moving forward and always thinking about what's next. Oftentimes, people don't even realize the breadth and depth of what we do and who we are now so as even with all of that context in place, the horizon that we're facing into now is, I believe, the most important transformation that we've done, which is, as you see, historical, I t models change and it becomes, yes, about customer choice. We know that many of our customers will continue to want to buy hardware the way they always have. But we also know that we're going to see a very significant change in consumption models. And the way we stay on top of our game going forward is we lean into that huge transformation. And that's what we're announcing this week with Project Apex, which is that commitment to the entire company's transformation around as a service. And that's super exciting for us. >>Well, I was saying Before, you're sort of in lockstep with your customers. Or maybe you could we could. We could close by talking a little bit about Dell's digital transformation and what you guys have going on internally, and maybe some of the cultural impacts that you've seen. >>So you, you you touched on it. It's so easy to make it about just the I t. Work, and in fact, you actually have to make it about the i t. The business process. Change in the culture change. So if you look at what we did with the AMC acquisition and the fact that you know that there's a lot of skepticism about that at the time, they're not gonna be able to absorb that. Keep the business running. And in fact, we have really shown huge strides forward in the business. One of the reasons we've been able to do that is because we've been so thoughtful about all of those things. The technology, the culture and the business process change, and you'll see us continue to do that. As I said in my own organization, just to use the data driven transformation of marketing. Historically, we would have hired a certain type of person who was more of a creative Brett bent. Well, now, increasingly, we're hiring quants who are going to come into a career in marketing, and they never would have seen themselves doing that a couple of years ago. And so my team has to think about okay, these don't look like our historical marketing profile. How do we hire them? How do we do performance evaluations for them. And how do we make sure that we're not putting the parameters of old on a very new type of talent? And so when we talk about diversity, it's not just age, gender, etcetera. It's also of skills. And that's where I think the future of digital transformation is so interesting. There has been so much hype on this topic, and I think now is when we're really starting to see those big leaps forward and peoples in companies. Riel transformation. That's the benefit of this cookie year we got here, Dave. >>Well, I think I do think the culture comes through, especially in conversations like this. I mean, you're obviously a very clear thinker and good communicator, but I think your executive team is in lockstep. It gets down, toe the middle management into the into the field and and, you know, congratulations on how far you've come. And, uh, and and also I'm really impressed that you guys have such a huge ambitions in so many ways. Changing society obviously focused on customers and building great companies. So, Alison, thanks so much for >>thank you, Dave. You virtually I'm very >>great to see it. Hopefully hopefully see Assumes. Hopefully next year we could be together. Until then, virtually you'll >>see virtual, >>huh? Thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volonte for the Cube. Keep it right there. Our coverage of Del Tech World 2020. We'll be right back right after this short break.

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California It is a cute conversation >> lover on Welcome to this cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. The Cube Studio. I'm John for the co host of the Cube Weird Sylvan shop. Who's the head of solution Architecture and open systems securing Esti win of right of other cloud to point out like capabilities. Very successful. 20 plus years. Operation Civil was the one of the first folks are coming over to the US to expand their operation from Europe into New York. Now here in Silicon Valley. Welcome to the Cube conversation. Thank you. So instituting trivia. You were part of the original team of three to move to the U. S. From Switzerland. You guys had phenomenal success in Europe. You've come to the U. S. Having phenomenal success in the US Now you moving west out here to California on that team, you're opening things up at the market. >> It's been a chance, Mikey. Things can presented themselves step by step, and I jumped on the trains and it's been a good right. >> Awesome. You guys have had great success. We interviewed your CEO a variety of your top people. One of the things that's interesting story is that you guys have been around for a long time. Been there, done that, riding this next next wave of digital transformation. What we call a cloud two point. Oh, but really is about enterprise. Full cloud scale, securing it. You have a lot of organic growth with customers, great word of mouth. So that's not a lot of big marketing budgets, riel. Real success there. You guys now are in the US doing the same thing here. What's been the key to success for open systems wide such good customers? Why the success formula is it you guys are on the right wave. What is it? The product? All the above. What's the What's the secret formula? >> So multiple things I say. And we started as a privately owned company like broad banks to, um, to the Internet email into one back in the nineties. And, um, yeah, we started to grow organically, as he said were by mouth, and Indiana is we put heavy focus on operations, so we wanted to make our customers happy and successful, and, um, yeah, that's how we got there like it was slow organic growth. But we always kind of kept the core and we tried to be unconventional, tried to do things differently than others do. And that's what brought us to where we are today and now capabilities Being here in the Valley, um, opens up a lot of more doors. >> It's got a nice office and we would see I saw the video so props for that. Congratulations. But the real to me, the meat on the bone and story is, is that and I've been really ranting on this whole SD win is changing. SD Win used to be around for a long, long time. It's been known industries known market. It's got a total addressable market, but really, what has really talks to is the the cloud. The cloud is a wide area network. Why do we never used to be locked down? He had the old way permitted based security. Now everything is a wide area. That multi cloud in hybrid club. This is essentially networking. It's a networking paradigms. It's not lately rocket science technically, but the cloud 2.0 shift is about, you know, data. It's about applications, different architectures you have everything kind of coming together, which creates a security problem, an opportunity for new people to come in. That's what you guys? One of them. This is the big wave. What? It explain the new s t win with, you know, the old way and the new way. What is the what? What should people know about the new S D win marketplace? >> Yeah. So let me start. Where do Owen has come from and how digital transformation has impacted that. So typically corporate wider networks were centered around the Clear Data Center where all applications were hosted, storage and everything and all traffic was back holding to the data center. Typically, one single provider that Broady, Mpls links on dhe. It was all good. You had a central location where you could manage it. You had always ability security stack was there. So you had full control. Now new requirements from natural transformation broad as users are on the road, they're on their phones ipads on the in, restaurants in ah, hotels, Starbucks. Wherever we have applications moved to the cloud. So their access directly You wanna have or be as close as possible Unify Communications. I OT It's all things deposed. Different requirements now in the network and the traditional architecture didn't were wasn't able to respond to that. It's just that the links they were filled up. You couldn't invest enough thio blow up your Nampula slings to handle the band with You lost visibility because users were under road. You lost control, and that's where new architectures had to be found. That's where Ston step them and say, Hey, look now we're not centered around the headquarter anymore were sent around where the applications are, your scent around, where the data is, and we need to find means to connected a data as quickly as possible. And so you can use the Internet. Internet has become a commodity. It's become more performance more stable, so we can leverage that we can route traffic according to our policies. We can include the cloud, and that's where Ston actually benefits from the clown. As much as the club benefits from SD went because they go hand in hand and that's also what we really drive to say, Hey, look, now the cloud can be directly brought into your network, no matter where, where data and where applications. >> Yeah, and this is the thing. You know, Although you've been critical of S t when I still see it as the path of the future because it's networking. And the end of the day networking is networking. You moving packets from point A to point B and you're moving somebody story you moving from point A to store the point C. It's hard. And you brought this up about Mpls. It's hard to, like rip and replace You can't just do a wholesale change on the network has the networks are running businesses. So this is where the trick is, in my opinion. So I want to get your thoughts on how companies were dealing with this because, I mean, if you want to move, change something in the network, it takes a huge task. How did you guys discover this new opportunity? How did you implement it? What was the and how should customers think about not disrupting their operations at the same time bringing in the new capabilities of this SD win two point? Oh, >> yeah, that's it's a perfect sweet spot, because in the end is, um, nobody starts at a green field. If you could start with a green field. It's easy. You just take on the new technology and you're happy. But, um, customers that we look up large enterprises, they have a brownfield. They haven't existing that work. They have business critical applications running 24 7 And if you look at what options large enterprises have to implement and manage a nasty when is typically three approaches, they either do it themselves, meaning they need a major investment in on boarding people having the talent validating technology and making the project work already. Look at a conventional managers provider. In the end, that is just the same as doing yourself. It's just done by somebody else, and you have the the challenge that those providers typically, um, have a lot of portfolio that they manage. And they do not have enough expertise in Nasty Wen. And so you just end up with the same problems and a lot of service, Janey. So even then you do not get the expertise that you need. >> I think what's interesting about what you guys have done? I want to get your reaction to this is that the manage service piece of it makes it easier to get in without a lot of tinkering with existing infrastructure. Exact. And that's been one of that tail winds for you guys and success wise. Talk about that dynamic of why they managed service is a good approach because you put your toe in the water, so to speak, and you can kind of get involved, get as much as you need to go and go further. Talk about that dynamic and why that's important. >> Yeah, technology Jane is very quickly. So you need people that are able to manage that and open systems as a pure play provider. We build purposely build our platform for us, he went. So we integrated feature sets. We we know how to monitor it, how to configure it, how to manage it. Lifecycle management, technology, risk technology management. All this is purposely purposely built into it, so we strongly believe that to be successful, you need people that are experts in what they do to help you so that you and your I t people can focus in enabling the business. And that's kind of our sweet spot where we don't say we have experts. Our experts operating the network for you as a customer and therefore our experts are your experts. And that's kind of where we believe that a manage service on the right way ends up in Yeah, the best customer. >> And I think the human capital pieces interesting people can level up faster when you when you're not just deploying here. Here's the software load. It is the collaborations important. They're good. They're all right. While you're on this topic, I want to get your thoughts. Since you're an expert, we've been really evaluating this cloud 2.0, for lack of a better description. Cloud 2.0, implying that the cloud 1.0 was Amazon miss on The success of Amazon Web service is really shows Dev Ops in Action Agility The Lean startup Although all that stuff we read reading about for the past 10 plus years great compute storage at scale, amazing use of data like you, said Greenfield. Why not use the cloud? Great. Now all the talk about hybrid cloud even going back to 2013 We were of'em world at that time start 10th year their hybrid cloud was just introduced. Now it's mainstream now multi cloud is around the corner. This teases out cloud 2.0, Enterprise Cloud Enterprise Scale Enterprise Security Cloud Security monitoring 2.0, is observe ability. Got Cooper All these new things air coming on. This is the new clout to point out what is your definition of cloud two point? Oh, if you had to describe it to a customer or a friend, >> it is really ah, some of hybrid cloud or multi cloud, as you want to name it, because in the end, probably nobody can say I just select one cloud, and that's going to make me successful because in the end, cloud is it's not everywhere, as we kind of used to believe in the beginning, but in the end, it's somebody else's computer in a somebody else's data center. So the cloud is you selectively pick the location where you want to for your cloud instances and asked if Cloud Service providers opened up more locations that are closer to your users in the or data you actually can leverage more possibilities. So what we see emerging now is that while for a long time everything has moved to the cloud, the cloud is again coming back to us at the sietch. So a lot of compute stuff is done close to where data is generated. Um, it's where the users are. I mean, Data's generated with with us. Yeah, phones and touch and feel and vision and everything. So we can leverage these technologies to really compute closer to the data. But everything controlled out of central cloud instances. >> So this brings up a good point. You essentially kind of agreeing with cloud one detto being moved to the cloud. But now you mentioned something that's really interesting around cloud to point out, which is moving having cloud, certainly public clouds. Great. But now moving technology to the edge edge being a data center edge being, you know, industrial I ot other things wind farms, whatever users running around remotely you mentioned. So the edges now becomes a critical component of this cloud. Two point. Oh, okay. So I gotta ask the question, How does the networking and what's the complexity? And I'm just imagining massive complexity from this. What are some of the complexities and challenges and opportunities will arise out of this new dynamic of club two point. Oh, >> So the traditional approaches does just don't work anymore. So we need new ways to not only on the networking side, but obviously also the security side. So we need to make sure that not on Lee the network follows in the footsteps of the business of what it needs. But actually, the network can drive business innovation and that the network is ready to handle those new leaps and technologies. And that's what we see is kind of being able to tightly integrate whatever pops up, being able to quickly connect to a sass provider, quickly integrate a new cloud location into your network and have the strong security posture there. Directly integrated is what you need because if you always have to think about weight, if I add this, it's gonna break something else, and I have to. To change is here. Then you lose all the speed that your business needs. >> I mean, the ripple effect of it's like throwing a stone in the lake and seeing the ripple effect with cloud to point. You mentioned a few of them. Network and Security won't get to that in a second, but doesn't change every aspect of computing categories. Backup monitoring. I mean all the sectors that were traditional siloed on premise that moves with the cloud are now being disrupted again for the third time. Yeah, you agree with that? >> It's true. And I mean your club 0.1 point. Oh, you say a lot of things will be seen his lift and shift and that still works like there is a lot of work loads where it's not worth it to re factor everything. But then, for your core applications, the business where the business makes money, you want a leverage, the latest instead of technologies to really drive, drive your business there. >> I got to get your take on this because you're the head of architecture solutions at Open Systems. Um, is a marketing tagline that I saw that you guys promote, which I live. I want to get your thoughts on. It says, Stop treating your network like a network little marketing. I love it, but it's kind of like stop trying your network like a network implying that the networks changing may be inadequate. Antiquated needs to modernize. I'm kind of feeling the vibe there on that. What do you mean by that? Slow Stop treating your network like a network. What's what's the purpose >> behind that? But yeah, in the end, it to be a little flaw provoking. But I mean, even est even in its pure forms, where you have a softer controller that steers your traffic along different path. Already. For me, as an engineer, I'm gonna lose my mind because I want to know where routing is going. I want deterministic. Lee defined my policy, so I always have things under control. But now it's a softer agent that takes care. Furred takes care of it for me so that already I lose control in favor off. Yeah, more capabilities. And I think that's cloud just kind of accelerate. >> So you guys really put security kind of in between the network and application? Is that the way you're thinking about it? It used to be Network was at the bottom. You built the application, had security. Now you're thinking differently. Explain that the the architectural thinking around this because this is a modern approach you guys were taking, and I want to get this on the record. Applications have serving users and machines network delivers packets, and then you're saying security's wrapping up between them explain. >> So when we go back again to the traditional model Central Data Center, you had a security stack full rack of appliances that the care of your security was easy to manage. Now, if you wanna go ask you when connect every brand side to the Internet, you cannot replicate such an infrastructure to every branch. Location just doesn't skill. So what do you do? Why do you say I cannot benefit of this where I use new methods? And that's where we say we integrate security directly into our networking stack. So to be able to not rely on the service training but have everything compiled into one platform and be able to leverage that data is passing through our network. You've eyes. But then why not apply the same security functions that we used to do in our headquarter directly at the edge and therefore every branch benefits of the same security posture that I typically were traditionally only had in my data center? >> You guys so but also weighing as a strategic infrastructure critical infrastructure opponent. I would agree with that. That's obvious, but as we get into hybrid cloud and multi cloud infrastructures of service support. Seamless integration is critical. This has become a topic, will certainly be talking about for the rest of the year Of'em world and reinvented other conferences like Marcel that night as well. This is the big challenge for customers. Do I invest in Azure A. W as Google in another cloud? Who knows how many clouds coming be another cloud potentially around the corner? I don't want to fork my development team. I want to do one of the great different code bases. This has become kind of like the challenge. How do you see this playing out? Because again, the applications want to run on the best cloud possible. I'm a big believer in that. I think that the cloud should dictate the AP should dictate which cloud runs. That's why I'm a believer in the single cloud for the workload, not a single cloud for all workloads. So your thoughts, >> I think, from an application point of view. As you say, the application guys have to determine more cloud is best for them, I think from a networking point of view, as a network architect, we need to we can't work against this but enable them and be able to find ways that the network can seamlessly connect to whatever cloud the business wants to use. And there's plenty of opportunity to do that today and to integrate or partner with other providers that actually have partnered with dozens of cloud providers. And as we now can architect, we have solutions to directly bring you as a customer within milliseconds, to each cloud, premise is a huge advantage. It takes a few clicks in a portal. You have a new clouds instance up and running, and now you're connected. And the good thing is, we have different ways to do that. Either. We spin up our virtual instance virtual esti one appliance in cloud environments so we can leverage the Internet to go. They're still all secured, all encrypted, ordering me again. Use different cloud connect interconnections to access the clouds. Depending on the business requirements, >> you guys have been very successful. A lot of comfort from financial service is the U. N. With NGOs, variety of industries. So I want to get your thoughts on this. I've been we've been covering the Department of Defense is joining and Chet I joint and the presentation of defense initiative where the debate was soul single purpose Cloud. Now the reality is and we've covered this on silicon angle that D O D is going multi cloud as an organization because they're gonna have Microsoft Cloud for collaboration and other contracts. They're gonna win $8,000,000,000. So that a Friday cloud opportunities, but for the particular workload for the military, they have unique requirements. Their workload has chosen one cloud. That was the controversy. Want to get your thoughts on this? Should the workloads dictate the cloud? And is that okay? And certainly multi cloud is preferred Narada instances. But is it okay to have a single cloud for a workload? >> Yeah, again, from if the business is okay with that, that's fine from our side of you. We see a lot of lot of business that have global presence, so they're spread across the globe. So for them, it's beneficial to done distribute workloads again across different regions, and it could still be the same provider, but across different regions. And then already, question is How do you now we're out traffic between those workloads? Do we? Do you love right? Your esteem and infrastructure or do you actually use, for example, the backbone that the cloud provider provides you in case of Microsoft? They guarantee you the traffic between regions stay in their backbone. So gifts, asshole, new opportunities to leverage large providers. Backbone. >> And this is an interesting nuance point because multi cloud doesn't have to be. That's workload. Spreading the workload across three different clouds. It's this workload works on saving Amazon. This workload works on Azure. This workload works on another cloud that's multi cloud from a reality standpoint today, so that implies that most every country will be multi cloud for sure. But workloads might have a single cloud for either the routing and the transit security with the data stored. And that's okay, too. >> Yeah, yeah, and keep in mind, Cloud is not only infrastructure or platform is the service. It's also software as a service. So as soon as we have sales forests, work day office 3 65 dropbox or box, then we are multiplied. >> So basically the clouds are fighting it out by the applications that they support and the infrastructure behind. Exactly. All right, well, what's next for you? You're on the road. You guys doing a lot of customer activity. What's the coolest thing that you're seeing in the customer base from open system standpoint that you like to share with the audience? >> Um, so again, it's just cool to see that customers realized that there's plenty of opportunities. And just to see how we go through that evolution with our customers, were they initially or little concerned? But then eventually we see that actually, the network change drives new business project and customers air happy that they launched or collaborate with us. That's what that's what makes me happy and makes me and a continuing down that path >> and securing it is a key. Yeah, he wins in this market Having security? >> Absolutely. Yeah, Sylvia saying mind and not wake up at 2 a.m. Full sweat, because here >> we'll manage. Service is a preferred for my people like to consume and procure product in So congratulations and congressional on your Silicon Valley office looking for chatting more. I'm John for here in the keep studios for cute conversation. Thanks for watching

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California. It is a cute conversation. >> Everyone. Welcome to this Special Cube conversation here at the Palo Alto Cube Studios. I'm John for a host of Cuba here. Moritz man is the head of the product management team at Open Systems A G. Great to see you again. Thanks for coming in. >> Hey, John. Thanks for having me. >> So last time we spoke, you had your event in Las Vegas. You guys are launching. You have a new headquarters here in Silicon Valley. Opened up this past spring. Congratulations. Thank you. >> Yeah, it's a great, great venue to start, and we set foot on the Silicon Valley ground. So to make our way to >> I know you've been super busy with the new building and rolling out, expanding heavily here in the Valley. But you guys were in the hottest area that we're covering Security Cloud security on premise, security. The combination of both has been the number one conversation pretty much in the cloud world right now. Honestly, besides a normal cloud, native cloud I t hybrid versus multi cloud out. See, that continues to be the discussion I think there's no more debate around multi cloud in hybrid public clouds. Great people gonna still keep their enterprises. But the security equation still is changing this new requirements. What's the latest that you guys are seeing with respect to security? >> Yeah. So, John, what we see is actually that cloud adoption had happens at different speeds. So you have usually the infrastructure of the service. Adoption would happens in a quite controlled way because there's a lift in shift. Do you have your old data center? You you take it and you transferred into azure I W S O G C P. But then there's also uncontrolled at option, which is in the SAS space. And I think this is where a lot off data risk occur, especially the wake off GDP are on where we see that this adoption happens. Maurin a sometimes control, but sometimes in a very uncontrolled way, >> explain that the uncontrolled and controlled expansion of of how security and multi cloud and cloud is going because this interesting control means this this plan's to do stuff uncontrolled means it's just by other forces explain uncontrolled versus controls >> eso controlled specifically means the IittIe team takes as a project plan and aches servers and workloads and moves them in a controlled fashion or in a dedicated project to the cloud. But what happened in the business world of business I t is actually did use those share content at any time with any device at any at any time and in all locations. So this is called the Mobile Enterprise on the Cloud First Enterprise. So it means that the classical security perimeter and the controls in that are my past, actually, by the path of least resistance or the shortest path >> available. And this is the classic case. People use Dropbox with some, you know, personal things. They're at home, they're at work, a p I based software. That's what you're getting at the >> and the issue of this is that that the data that has bean, like contained an pera meters where, you know, as it Caesar, where your data is. This has bean deployed too many edge devices, too many mobile devices, and it's get it gets shared, a nun controlled way. >> We'll get a couple talk tracks would like to drill down on that, because I think this is the trend. We're seeing a pea eye's dominant. The perimeter on the infrastructure has gone away. It's only getting bigger and larger. You got I, O. T and T Edge just and the networks are controlled and also owned by different people. So the packets of moving on it that's crazy so that that's the reality. First, talk track is the security challenge. What is the security challenge? How does a customer figure out what to do from an architectural standpoint when they're dealing with hybrid and multi cloud? So first of >> all, um, customers or BC enterprises try need to re think their infrastructure infrastructure centric view off the architecture's. So the architecture that had been built around data send us needs to become hybrid and multi cloud aware. So that means they need to define a new way off a perimeter, which is in cloud but also in the covering. Still the old, so to say, legacy hyper data center set up, which has the data still in the old data center and at the same time, they need to open up and become the cloud themselves, so to say, and but still draw a perimeter around their data and they users and not and their applications and not so much anymore around the physical infrastructure. >> So taking, changing their view of what a security product is, Is that really what you're getting at? >> Yeah, So the issues with the product point solution was that they fixed a certain part off off a tactile issue. So if you take a firewall in itself, firewall back then it was like a entry door to a big building, and you could could decide who comes out goes in. Now. If the the kind of the walls of the building are vanishing or arm or more FIC, you need to come over the more integrated concept. So having these stacked appliance and stacked security solutions trying to work together and chain them doesn't work anymore. So we think and we see that, >> Why is that? Why doesn't it work? Because in >> the end, it's it's it's hardly two to operate them. Each of those points solutions have their own end off life. They have their own life cycle. They have their own AP eyes. They have their own TCO, as all that needs to be covered. And then there's the human aspect where you have the knowledge pools around >> those technologies. So as an enterprise you have to content to continuously keep the very scar security experts to maintain content continues the depreciating assets running right, >> and they're also in it. We weren't built for tying into a holistic kind of platform. >> Yeah, What we see is that that enterprises now realize we have data centers and it's not accepted reality that you can abstracted with the cloud. So you have You don't own your own servers and buildings anymore. So you have a PAX model to subscribe to Cloud Service is and we think that this has to happen to security to so shift from cap ex to our pecs and the same way also for operational matters >> securities. The service is a crepe is a small I want to ask you on that front you mentioned mobile users. How do you secure the mobile uses when they use cloud collaboration? Because this is really what uses expect, and they want How do you secure it? >> So be secured by by actually monitoring the data where it actually gravitates, and this is usually in the cloud. So we enforce the data that is in transit through, ah, proxies and gators towards the cloud from the endpoint devices, but also then looking by AP eyes in the cloud themselves to look for threats, data leakage and also sandbox. Certain activities that happened. There >> are the next talk talk I want to get into is the expansion to hybrid and multi cloud so that you guys do from a product standpoint, solution for your customers. But in general, this is in the industry conversation as well. How how do you look at this from a software standpoint? Because, you know, we've heard Pat Gelsinger of'em were talking about somewhere to find Data Center S d n. Everything's now software based. You talk about the premiere goes away. You guys were kind of bring up a different approaches. A software perimeter? Yeah, what is the challenge for expanding to multi cloud and hybrid cloud? >> So So the challenge for enterprise and customers we talked to is that they have to run their old business. Gardner once called it by motile business, and it's still adopting not one cloud, but we see in our surveys. And this is also what market research confirms is that customers end up with 2 to 3 loud vendors. So there were will be one or two platforms that will be the primary to their major majority of applications and data gravity. But they will end up and become much more flexible with have running AWS, the old Davis Center. But it was the G, C, P and Azure, or Ali Baba glowed even side by side, right tow cover the different speeds at what their own and the price runs. And >> so I gotta ask you about Cloud Needed was one of the things that you're bringing up that just jumps in my head. And when I got to ask, because this is what I see is a potential challenge. It might be a current challenges when you have kubernetes growing such a rapid rate. You see the level of service is coming online much higher rate. So okay, people, mobile users, they're using the drop boxes, the boxes and using all these FBI service's. But that's just those wraps. As a hundreds and thousands of micro service is being stood up and Tauron down in there, you guys are taking, I think, an approach of putting a perimeter software premieres around these kinds of things, but they get turned on enough. How do you know what's clean? It's all done automatically, so this is becoming a challenge. So is this what you guys mean when you say software perimeter that you guys could just put security around things at any time? Is that explain this? >> Yeah, So? So if you talk about the service match so really mashing cloudy but native functions, I think it's still in the face where it's, I would say, chaos chaotic when you have specific projects that are being ramped up them down. So we draw a perimeter in that specific contact. So let's say you have You're ramping up a lot off cloud a function AWS. We can build a pyramid around this kind off containment and look especially for threats in the activity locks off. The different component is containers, but from from a design perspective, this needs to be, uh, we need to think off the future because if you look at Mike soft on AWS strategy, those containers will eventually move Also back to the edge. Eso were in preparing that to support those models also cover. Bring these functions closer back again to the edge on We call that not any longer the when, ej but it will become a cloud at at actually. So it's not an extension of the land that comes to the data. It's actually the data and the applications coming back to the user and much closer. >> Yeah. I mean, in that case, you could define the on premises environment has an edge, big edge, because this is all about moving, were close and data around. This is what the new normal is. Yeah, So okay, I gotta ask the next question, which is okay, If that's true, that means that kubernetes becomes a critical part of all this. And containers. How do you guys play with that at all? >> So we play with us by by actually looking at data coming from that at the moment. We're looking at this from a from a data transit perspective. We But we will further Maur integrate into their eighties AP eyes and actually become part off the C I C D. Process that building then actually big become a security function in approval and rolling out a cannery to certain service mesh. And we can say, Well, this is safe for this is unsafe This is, I think, the eventual goal to get there. But But for now, it's It's really about tracking the locks of each of those containers and actually having a parent her and segmentation around this service mash cloud. So to say, >> I think you guys got a good thing going on when you talk about this new concept that's of softer to find perimeter. You can almost map that to anything you get. Really think everything has its own little perimeter workload. Could be moving around still in these three secure. So I gotta ask on the next talk Trek is this leads into hybrid cloud. This is the hottest topic. Hybrid cloud to me is the same as multi cloud. Just kind of get together a little bit different. But hybrid cloud means you're operating both on premises and in the cloud. This is becoming a channel most si si SOS Chief admission Security officers. I don't want to fork their teams and have multiple people coding different stacks. They don't want the vendor lock in, and so you're seeing a lot of people pulling back on premises building their own stacks, deploying in the cloud and having a seamless operation. What is your definition of hybrid? Where do you see hybrid going? And how important is it? Have a hybrid strategy. >> So I think the key successfactors of a hybrid strategy is that standards standardization is a big topic. So we think that a service platform that to secure that like the SD when secure service platform rebuilt, needs to be standardized on operational level, but also from a baseline security and detection level. And this means that if you run and create your own work, those on Prem you need to have the same security and standard security and deployment standard for the clout and have the seamless security primary perimeter and level off security no matter where these these deployments are. And the second factor of this is actually how do you ensure a secure data transfer between those different workloads? And this is where S T win comes into play, which acts as a fabric together with when backbone, where we connect all those pieces together in a secure fashion >> where it's great to have you on the Q and sharing your insight on the industry. Let's get into your company. Open systems. You guys provide an integrated solution for Dev Ops and Secure Service and Security Platform. Take a minute to talk about the innovations that you guys were doing because you guys talk a lot about Casby. Talk a lot about integrated esti when but first define what Casby is for. The audience doesn't know what Casby is. C. A S B. It's kicked around all of the security conscious of your new to security. It's an acronym that you should pay attention to so defined casby and talk about your solution. >> Eso casby isn't theory. Aviation means cloud access security we broker. So it's actually becoming this centralized orchestrator that that allows and defines access based on a trust level. So saying, um, first of all, it's between networks saying I have a mobile workforce accessing SAS or I s applications. Can't be it in the middle to provide security and visibility about Where's my data moving? Where's married? Where do I have exposure off off GDP, our compliance or P C. I or he power risks And where is it exposed to, Which is a big deal on it's kind of the lowest level to start with, But then it goes further by. You can use the Casby to actually pull in data that that is about I s were close to toe identified data that's being addressed and stored. So are there any incidentally, a shared data artifacts that are actually critical to the business? And are they shared with extra resource is and then going one step further, where we then have a complete zero trust access model where we say we know exactly who can talkto which application at any time on give access to. But as everything this needs to be is in embedded in an evolution >> and the benefit ultimately goes to the SAS applications toe, have security built in. >> That's the first thing that you need to tackle. Nowadays, it's get your sass, cloud security or policy enforced on, but without disrupting service on business on to actually empower business and not to block and keep out the business >> can make us the classic application developer challenge, which is? They love to co they love the build applications, and what cloud did with Dev Ops was abstracted away the infrastructure so that they didn't have to do all this configuration. Sister. Right? APs You guys air enabling that for security? >> Exactly. Yeah. So coming back to this multi protein product cloud would, which is not keeping up anymore with the current reality and needs of a business. So we took the approach and compared death ops with a great service platform. So we have engineers building the platform. That's Integrated Security Service Platform, which promotes Esti Wen managed Detection response and Caspi Service is in one on the one platform which is tightly integrated. But in the in the customer focus that we provide them on or Pecs model, which is pretty, very predictable, very transparent in their security posture. Make that a scalable platform to operate and expand their business on. >> And that's great. Congratulations. I wanna go back for the final point here to round up the interview for the I T. Folks watching or, um, folks who have to implement multi cloud and hybrid cloud they're sitting there could be a cloud architect that could be an I T. Operations or 90 pro. They think multi cloud this in hybrid club. This is the environment. They have to get their arms around. How? What >> should they >> be thinking about? Around multi cloud and hybrid cloud. What is it, really? What's the reality now? What >> should they be considering for evaluation? What are some of the key things that that should be on their mind when they're dealing with hybrid cloud and all the opportunity around it? >> So I think they're they're like, four key pieces. Oneness. Um, they think they still have to start to think strategic. So what? It's a platform and a partner That helps them to plan ahead for the next 3 to 5 years in a way that they can really focus on what their business needs are. This is the scalability aspect. Secondly, it's a do. We have a network on security, our architecture that allows me to grow confidently and go down different venues to to actually adopt multi clouds without worrying about the security implication behind it. Too much, uh, and to implement it. And third is have this baseline and have this standardized security posture around wherever the data is moving, being at Mobil's being it SAS or being on Prem and in clouds workloads, the fourth pieces again, reading, thinking off where did you spend most of my time? Where do I create? Create value by by defining this framework so it really can create a benefit and value for the enterprise? Because if you do it not right your not right. You will have a way. You will end up with a an architecture that will break the business and not accelerated. >> Or it's made head of product that open systems here inside the Cube studios. Um, great job. Must love your job. You got the keys. A lot of pressure. Security being a product. Head of product for security companies. A lot of pressure before we wrap up. Just give a quick plug for the company. You guys hiring you have a new office space here in Redwood City. Looks beautiful. Give a quick shared play for the company. >> Yeah. So open systems the great company to work with. We're expanding in the U. S. On also, Amy, uh, with all the work force. So we're hiring. So go on our website. We have a lot off open positions, exciting challenges in a growth or into workspace. Andi. Yeah. As you said, security at the moment, it's one of the hottest areas to be in, especially with all the fundamental changes happening in the enterprise and architecture. I d landscape. So yeah, >> and clouds securing specifically. Not just in point. The normal stuff that people used to classify as hot as hot as Hades could be right now. But thanks for coming on. Strong insights. I'm jumping with Cuba here in Palo Alto with more Morris Man is the head of product management for open systems. Thanks for watching.

>> from Seattle WASHINGTON. It's the Q covering AWS Imagine brought to you by Amazon Web service is >> Hey, welcome back already. Jeffrey. Here with the Cube. We're in downtown Seattle at the AWS. Imagine e do you conference? It's the second year of the conference, part of the public sector. Kind of a carve out with Andrew Coast Group. Really all about education on an education from K through 12 to higher education, community, college education, retraining of people coming out of the military. It's a huge segment, and we're really excited to have our next guest. He's going to give a keynote later this afternoon on a new pay for that he just published. So we welcome Richard Palmer, the practice leader for public sector for Open Richard, Great to see you. >> Good to be here. >> So tell us it's called reaching for the clouds. >> Yes. Look, what we found is that for many universities are moving into the cloud has proved to be difficult, that there are lots of barriers in the way and they get a part of the way along, and all of a sudden they hit a wall and it takes time. The big number that we keep looking at is only 30% of application workloads or in the cloud at this point. And after 67 years off the public cloud being available, it really suggests that there are various significant barriers. >> So what are some of those driving again? As you said, we were kind of well down this path. So whether it's just legacy stuff that's not worth moving. But I would imagine most of the new workloads are coming in. I mean, they've got to be getting with this program. >> Purchasing sess is an obvious ploy. It gets you right out of all of the problems that you had before. Look, the first thing that that bury that people find is the clouds different. So the skills that you've got in your team, the way that you were finances, your project methodologies everything is different to engage with cloud properly and the way that you design and build applications is different in the cloud. So taking a traditional organization trying to go cloud has everybody involved from the CFO with funding cycles to governance board, which are the most wonderful thing ever in higher education. Great away through to staff skills end the way that start. Think about applications. And if there's one thing in my time in hired that I saw it time and time again, it's the instant legacy problem. So somebody creates something and does it a special way because they know better than the vendor. And we had this infrastructure anyway. So why not reuse it? And they create an orphan that is neither manageable by the vendor nor manageable by the organization requires that individual to remain with the organization. We're well past their expiry date. Let's put it that way because they put things in that just unique to this single installation. And that's the transformation you see in the cloud. It's software as a service. That's it's a native thing. You don't look at how it's hosted. You don't care about anything but using it. But the danger point is in moving to infrastructure service or platforms. The service that you carry over that customization thinking right, which creates if you're like instant legacy, right s so so that that's one of the barriers that we say. >> I'm just curious because you have to really big things, you know, just the whole financing and the way you buy it, the way you budget is completely different than a big capital expenditure that you're appreciating over time. And then, as you said, the skill set. So in the enterprise space, right? Everyone's got big piles of money, and they hired the biggest size right to come help him. They have incident skills. They can bust him in by the many dozens and help them with some of that financial. How is the system integrator or the service is kind of industry evolving an education to help them make this transition. >> So they're there >> two ways and education bigger public sector enterprise has that awful problem that if you provide advice, often you can't provide. Service is we tend to beginning over that a little bit now. But the obvious way is most higher. Education institutions who have moved through that process have engaged a strategic partner to help them to plan right. That's the first piece on dhe there. There are lots of them around, and often they're very good at it, moderately expensive. But the thing that they don't tend to do as well is to find the right partners for the actual transition. So often engineers are trying thio, learn cloud technologies and apply them on and get it right the first time around. And, of course, we all know that in the experimentation you want tohave learn fast and then re learn when you you've come to something that you shouldn't have done. Great. But if engineers thrown into a life production style project, there's no time for that relearn re platform. You learn as you go, right. So having it not so much in a sigh about an implementation partners really important. And luckily, many of the the vendors or their networks are really quite good at doing those mid level implementation projects. Now it's a matter of finding the right one great, but certainly in my home Australian context for almost a LL moves the cloud. There's somebody who's who has done it several times before in education and has a good reputation. So I suspect in the U. S. That's multiplied 10 times. Larger economy is probably 10 times as many people who have done it well before, >> right? So the other piece of I'm curious if this came out right, so there's the cloud as a more efficient way to run to your infrastructure and in all that that means and cost savings. But much more importantly, in some of the things we're doing today is really to enable innovation to enable you to develop stuff faster, whether it's Alexa or some of these other things we're hearing about. I mean, how does that play in people, you know, kind of getting through the pain of getting through this process, because if you don't innovate and we just had just had somebody on before, he said. They're worried about competing with online and really having a good experience for the students on campus. Is that the driver? Is it the cost savings? Is it? How do you How do you see that kind of slicing? >> We've seen several drivers. Mum. That's most common is student success and retention that is ubiquitous in higher education to bring the cost down and to make sure that every intervention that the college or school does is meaningful and produces a positive outcome. So that's kind of the core business. And so things like analytics play into that, and now machine learning more and more the motivator. Yes, this competitive motivator but it actually works. The same for their up there on campus is their online that if you can help every student to be successful, you gain reputation. If you could do it efficiently, you drive down costs, so that's beneficial rate. But then, then you're asking about innovation. That's a step after you've put away pieces together to do core business well, right? And the key elements in doing core business well is shifting from traditional too agile. Because EJ, our projects have benefits on the business side as well as the technical side. One of the most important things is to be able in the edge. I'll space is to be able to interact quickly, and that is just a CZ. Important on the academic side is is on the technical side, because usually the academic or the administration, I don't know what they need until they've actually experienced it. Most times, when you're replacing the system, you ask the people on the front line what they want, and they answer exactly what the last system did, but better so that innovation cycle you do then measure and cycle through is part of the edge. I'll pace and the second part of it is being out to differentiate between what is actually going to make a difference for your students and what is just pure women. You know what we think might be better, but is actually gonna cost cost money, create legacy, move us away from state of practice and actually is gonna bring the benefit so really important to attach riel KP eyes to differentiating practices on get away from customization, which produces no benefit the Third Elements platforms. Once upon a time, we used to build their special systems from the code up way shouldn't do that anymore. We shouldn't be caring about what databases underneath application platforms are faster, more effective and require listen, Herr Skills to maintain a lifetime. So that's that's the third element. >> So one of the things that the Enterprise has been able to benefit from is, you know, we just leave the AARP alone, right? Just a lot of stuff. It's just not worth lifting and shifting. But, you know, it's it's kind of customer interaction applications, and there's a whole kind of class of applications that opened up the opportunity to leverage all this kind of platforms and fast, fast development, et cetera. How is that playing out on the public sector side? Because it before turning the cameras, you talked about just the pain of lift and shift, and you run into all kinds of issues. You don't get that that good, easy win that good fast win are our date. Are they thinking in terms of, you know, setting aside kind of an innovation development team that's working on some of these kind of new age things that that aren't kind of the core systems, that maybe he he don't necessarily want a lift and shift anytime soon? >> I'm a big fan of innovation teams when you're working directly with research. I'm not sure that that's the best model for mainstream innovation. It's much more useful to leverage the folks who are actually working directly with the business people like business analysts, and to shift those into thinking beyond the Monday because the business analyst usually has a very intimate relationship in the nice way with the business partner, and they can engage with what would make life better. What would make things more productive and then to quickly bring resources in behind that idea and a quick, quick proof of concept. But you've hit on another whole issue there that the idea of a ubiquitous engagement layer that both delivers a really high quality online digital student experience but also provides a whole lot of information that can be then analyzed to work out what was the best thing to do with student is really transformative, and we're seeing the best vendors move into that space, even with traditional systems and what they're doing on I'll use a couple student management system vendors is an example, without naming them but their traditional systems, they will either host them for you or you could do it on premises. But their new analysis engagement systems are cloud based, so it doesn't melt away. Your implementation is you can buy New software is a service that gives you really good analytics and a new communications collaboration. Engagement layer, often with Syria, and collaboration tools mixed in in a brand new platform, and that's really transformed it, so it allows you to keep your transactional system in place, but risk in it with the new engagement layer. And if you can clip your university service's into that engagement layer Then you get that 360 degrees view of the student with actually out having to shift major systems, right? And, as you said, that's just money spent to lift and shift the system because there's no strategic benefit except if it will lead you to upgrade for so many universities. They're stuck with an old version of the system, either because they're customized it, or they haven't got the infrastructure to host the new version or whatever it happens to be gay. So there is a strategic benefit to be able to stay with the latest version, particularly as most good vendors are providing new features pretty regularly on the most up to date. And are any doing maintenance releases for the previous version? >> It's pretty interesting that Andrew pulled out of the of the three themes for the show. You know, tomorrow's workforce roll of the melon innovation transformation that Bell got its own its own bullet point because it is such a kind of an underlying infrastructure that drives so much value across lots of applications. And and I just found it interesting that you get kind of to retrain academic institutions in the ways of big data because it's very different than maybe the way that they you grew up thinking about data, the quantity and the way that you deal with it and how much do you have and sampling of old data versus versus all the real time flow. >> So, yes, that the next generation is autonomous and whether it's self driving cars or student advisement, we're seeing the leading edge providers provide in the education space pretty much autonomous student advising there except to the point where you go out of the mainstream. But that rep erred Good advice from bots, basically. But when you get to the real world in autonomous systems, we're going to see a real shift in even the university sector off that interact with people and the environment. If you're doing self driving cars, you're talking sub millisecond responses. So that whole world of I O. T. Plus sensing technology plus Courts Campus all coming together in the next iteration and being paralleled in the service is and maybe even the academic world, that'll probably be a bit slower, but taking the same autonomous kind of thinking and moving beyond just supplementing human human transactions. >> All right, Well, Richard Thank you for taking a few minutes. Good luck on your keynote this afternoon and we'll look forward to dig it into the paper. >> It's been a pleasure. Thank you. >> Alright, He's Richard. I'm Jeff. You're watching the cube. Where? Aws. Imagine CTU in downtown Seattle. Thanks for watching. See you next time.

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley. HOLLOWAY ALTO, California It is a cube conversation. >> Welcome to this Special Cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California at the Cube Studios at the Cube headquarters. I'm John for the host, like you were a Dustin Kirkland product manager and Google friend of the Cuban. The community with Cooper Netease been on the Cube Cube alumni. Dustin. Welcome to the Cube conversation. >> Thanks. John's a beautiful studio. I've never been in the studio and on the show floor a few times, but this is This is fun. >> Great to have you on a great opportunity to chat about Cooper Netease yet of what you do out some product man's working Google. But really more importantly on this conversation is about the fifth anniversary, the birthday of Cuba Netease. Today we're celebrating the fifth birthday of Cooper Netease. Still, it's still a >> toddler, absolutely still growing. You think about how you know Lennox has been around for a long time. Open stack has been around these other big projects that have been around for, you know, going on decades and Lenox this case and Cooper nineties. It's going so fast, but It's only five years old, you know. >> You know, I remember Adam Open Stack event in Seattle many, many years ago. That was six years ago. Pubes on his 10th year. So many of these look backs moments. This is one of them. I was having a beer with Lou Tucker. J J Kiss Matic was like one of the first comes at the time didn't make it, But we were talking about open stagger like this Cooper Netease thing. This is really hot. This paper, this initiative this could really be the abstraction layer to kind of bring all this cloud Native wasn't part of the time, but it was like more of an open stack. Try and move up to stack. And it turned out it ended up happening. Cooper Netease then went on to change the landscape of what containers did. Dr. Got a lot of credit for pioneering that got the big VC funding became a unicorn, and then containers kind of went into a different direction because of Cooper duties. >> Very much so. I mean, the modernization of software infrastructure has been coming for a long time, and Cooper nutty sort of brings it all brings it all together at this point, but putting software into a container. We've been doing that different forest for for a lot of time, uh, for a long time, but But once you have a lot of containers, what do you do with that? Right? And that was the problem that Cooper Nettie solved so eloquently and has, you know, now for a couple of years, and it just keeps getting better. >> You know, you mentioned modernization. Let's talk about that because I think the modernization the theme is now pretty much prevalent in every vertical. I'll be in D. C. Next week for the Amazon Webster was public sector Summit, where modernization of governments and nations are being discussed. Education, modernization of it. We've seen it here. The media business that were participating in is about not where you store the code. It's how you code. How you build is a mindset shift. This has been the rial revelation around the Dev Ops Movement Infrastructures Code, now called Cloud Native. Share your thoughts on this modernization mindset because it really is how you build. >> Yeah, I think the cross pollination actually across industries and we even we see that even just in the word containers, right and all the imagery around shipping and shipping containers, we've applied these age old concepts that have been I don't have perfected but certainly optimized over decades of, actually centuries or millennia of moving things across water in containers. Right. But we apply that to software and boom. We have the step function difference in the way that we we manage and we orchestrated and administer code. That's one example of that cross pollination, and now you're talking about, like optimizing optimized governments or economies but being able to maybe then apply other concepts that we've come a long way in computer science do de bop set a good example? You know, applying Dev ops principles to non computer feels. Just think about that for a second. >> It's mind blowing. And if you think about also the step function you mentioned because I think this actually changed a lot of the entrepreneurial landscape as well and also has shaped open source and, you know, big news this this quarter is map are going to shut down due one of the biggest do players. Cloudera merge with Horton Works fired their CEO, the founder Michael. So has retired, Some say forced out. I don't think so. I think it's more of his time. I'm Rodel still there. Open source is a business model, you know. Can we be the red hat for her? Duped the red? Not really kind of the viable, but it's evolving. So open source has been impacted by this step function. There's a business impact. Talk about the dynamics with step function both on the business side and on how software's built specifically open source. >> You know, you and I have been around open source for a long, long time. I think it started when I was in college in the late nineties on then through my career at IBM. And it's It's interesting how on the fringe open source was for so long and such so so much of my BM career. And then early time spent onside it at Red Hat. It was it was something that was it was different, was weird. It was. It was very much fringe where the right uh, but now it's in mainstream and it's everywhere, and it's so mainstream that it's almost the defacto standard to just start with open source. But you know, there's some other news that's been happening lately that she didn't bring up. But it's a really touchy aspect of open source right now on that's on some of the licenses and how those licenses get applied by software, especially databases. When offered as a service in the cloud. That's one of the big problems. I think that that's that we're we're working within the open >> source, summarize the news and what it means. What's what's happening? What's the news and what's the really business? Our technical impact to the licensing? What's the issue? What's the core issue? >> Yeah, eso without taking judgment any any way, shape or form on this, the the the TL D are on. This is a number of open source database is most recently cockroach D. B. I have adopted a different licensing model that is nonstandard from an open source perspective. Uh, and from one perspective, they're they're adopting these different licensing models because other vendors can take that software and offered as a service, yes, and in some some cases, like Amazon like Sure, you said, uh, and offered as a as a service, uh, and maybe contribute. Maybe pay money to the smaller startup or the open source community behind it. But not necessarily. Uh, and it's in some ways is quite threatening to open source communities and open source companies on other cases, quite empowering. And it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out. The tension between open sourcing software and eventually making money off of it is something that we've we've seen for, you know, at least 25. >> And it continues to go on today, and this is, to me a real fascinating area that I think is going to be super important to keep an eye on because you want to encourage contribution and openness. Att the same time we look at the scale of just the Lenox foundations numbers. It's pretty massive in terms of now, the open source contribution. When you factor in even China and other nations, it's it's on exponential growth, right? So is it just open source? Is the model not necessarily a business? Yeah. So this is the big question. No one knows. >> I think we crossed that. And open source is the model. Um, and this is where me is a product manager. That's worked around open source. I've spent a lot of time thinking about how to create commercial offerings around open source. I spent 10 years at Economical, the first half of which, as an engineer, the second half of which, as a product manager around, uh, about building services, commercial services around 12 And I learned quite a few things that now apply absolutely to communities as well as to a number of open source startups. That that I've advised on DH kind of given them some perspective on maybe some successful and unsuccessful ways to monetize that that opens. >> Okay, so doesn't talk about Let's get back to Coburg. And so I think this is the next level Talk track is as Cooper Netease has established itself and landed in the industry and has adoption. It's now an expansion votes the land adopted expand. We've seen adoption. Now it's an expansion mode. Where does it go from here? Because you look at the tale signs things like service meshes server. Listen, you get some interesting trends that going to support this expansionary stage of uber netease. What is your view about the next expansion everyway what >> comes next? Yeah, I I think I think the next stage is really about democratizing communities for workloads that you know. It's quite obvious where when communities is the right answer at the scale of a Google or a Twitter or Netflix or, you know, some of these massive services that it is obviously and clearly the best answer to orchestrating containers. Now I think the next question is, how does that same thing that works at that massive scale Also worked for me as a developer at a very small scale helped me develop my software. My small team of five or 10 people. Do I need a coup? Burnett. He's If I'm ah five or 10 person startup. Well, I mean, not the original sort of borde vision of communities. It's probably overkill, but actually the tooling has really advanced, and we now >> have >> communities that makes sense on very small scales. You've got things like a three s from from Rancher. You've got micro Kates from from my colleagues at economical other ways of making shrinking communities down to something that fits, perhaps on devices perhaps at the edge, beyond just the traditional data center and into remote locations that need to deploy manage applications >> on the Cooper Netease clustering the some of the tech side. You know, we've seen some great tech trends as mentioned in Claudia Horton. Works and map Our Let's Take Claudia and Horton work. Remember back in the old days when it was booming? Oh, they were so proud to talk about their clusters. I stood up all these clusters and then I would ask them, Well, what do you doing with it? Well, we're storing data. I think so. That became kind of this use case where standing up the cluster was the use case and they're like, OK, now let's put some data in it. It's a question for you is Coburn. Eddie's a little bit different. I'm not seeing they were seeing real use cases. What are people standing up? Cuban is clusters for what specific Besides the same Besides saying I've done it. Yeah, What's the what's the main use case that you're seeing this that has real value? >> Yeah, actually, there's you just jog t mind of really funny memory. You know, back in those big data days, I was CEO of a startup. We were encrypting data, and we were helping encrypt healthcare data for health care companies and the number of health care companies that I worked with at that time who said they had a big data problem and they had all of I don't know, 33 terabytes worth of worth of data that they needed to encrypt. It was kind of humorous sometimes like, Is that really a big, big data problem? This fits on a single disc, you know, Uh, but yeah, I mean, it's interesting how >> that the hype of of the tech was preceding. The reality needs needs, says Cooper Nettie. So I have a Cuban Eddie's cluster for blank. Fill in the blank. What are people saying? >> Yeah, uh, it's It's largely about the modernization. So I need to modernize my infrastructure. I'm going to adopt the platform. That's probably not, er, the old er job, a Web WebSphere type platform or something like that. I'm investing in hardware investing in Software Middle, where I'm investing in people, and I want all of those things to line up with where industry is going from a software perspective, and that's where Cooper Nighties is sort of the cornerstone piece of that Lennox Of course, that's That's pretty well established >> canoes delivery in an integration piece of is that the pipeline in was, that was the fit on the low hanging fruit use cases of Cooper Netease just development >> process. Or it's the operations it's the operations of now got software that I need to deploy across multiple versions, perhaps multiple sites. Uh, I need to handle that upgrade ideally without downtime in a way that you said service mash in a way that meshes together makes sense. I've got a roll out new certificates I need to address the security, vulnerability, thes air, all the things that Cooper and I used to such a better job at then, what people were doing previously, which was a whole lot of four loops, shell strips and sshh pushing, uh, pushing tar balls around. Maybe Debs or rpm's around. That is what Cooper not he's actually really solves and does an elegant job of solving as just a starting point. And that's just the beginning and, you know, without getting ve injury here, you know, Anthros is the thing that we had at Google have built around Cooper Netease that brings it to enterprise >> here the other day did a tweet. I called Anthem. I just typing too fast. I got a lot of crap on Twitter for that mission. And those multi cloud has been a big part of where Cubans seems to fit. You mentioned some of the licensing changes. Cloud has been a great resource for a lot of the new Web scale applications from all kinds of companies. Now, with several issues seeing a lot more than capabilities, how do you see the next shift with data State coming in? Because God stateless date and you got state full data. Yeah, this has become a conversation point. >> Yeah, I think Kelsey Hightower has said it pretty eloquently, as he usually does around the sort of the serval ist movement and lets lets developers focus on just their code and literally just their code, perhaps even just their function in just their piece of code, without having to be an expert on all of the turtles all the way, all the way down. That's the big difference about service have having written a couple of those functions. I can I can really invest my time on the couple of 100 lines of code that matter and not choosing a destro choosing a cougar Nati is choosing, you know, all the stack underneath. I simply choose the platform where I'm gonna drop that that function, compile it, uploaded and then riff and rub. On that >> fifth anniversary, Cooper Netease were riffing on Cooper Netease. Dustin Circle here inside the Cube Cube Alumni you were recently at the coop con in overseas in Europe, Barcelona, Barcelona, great city. Keeps been there many times. Do was there covering for us. Couldn't make this trip, Unfortunately, had a couple daughter's graduating, so I didn't make the trip. Sorry, guys. Um, what was the summary? What was the takeaway? Was the big walk away from that event? What synthesized? The main stories were the most important stories being >> told. >> Big news, big observations. >> It was a huge event to start with. It was that fear of Barcelona. Um, didn't take over the whole space. But I've been there a number of times from Mobile World Congress. But, you know, this is this is cube con in the same building that hosts all of mobile world Congress. So I think 8,000 attendees was what we saw. It's quite celebratory. You know, I think we were doing some some pre fifth birthday bash celebrations, Key takeaways, hybrid hybrid, Cloud, multi Cloud. I think that's the world that we've evolved into. You know, there was a lot of tension. I think in the early days about must stay on. Prem must go to the cloud. Everything's there's gonna be a winner and a loser and everything's gonna go one direction or another. I think the chips have fallen, and it's pretty obvious now that the world will exist in a very hybrid, multi cloud state. Ultimately, there's gonna be some stuff on Prem that doesn't move. There's going to be some stuff better hosted in one arm or public clouds. That's the multi cloud aspect, Uh, and there will be stubborn stuff at the edge and remote locations and vehicles on oil rigs at restaurants and stores and >> so forth. What's most exciting from a trans statement? What do you what? What's what's getting you excited from what you see on the landscape out there? >> So the tying all of that to Cooper Netease, Cuban aunties, is the thing that basically normalizes all of that. You write your application put it in a container and expect to communities to be there to scale that toe. Operate that top grade that to migrate that over time. From that perspective, Cooper nineties has really ticked, ticked all the boxes, and you've got a lot of choices now about which companies here, you're going to use it and where >> beyond communities, a lot of variety of projects coop flow, you got service messes out there a lot of difference. Project. What's What's a dark horse? What's something that sets out there that people should be paying attention to? That you see emerging? That's notable. That should be paying attention. To >> think is a combination of two things. One is pretty obvious, and that's a ML is coming like a freight train and is sort of the next layer of excitement. I think after Cooper, Netease becomes boring, which hopefully if we've done our jobs well, that communities layer gets settled and we'll evolve. But the sort of the hockey stick hopefully settles down and it becomes something super stable. Uh, the application of machine learning to create artificial intelligence conclusions, trends from things that is sort of the next big trend on then I would say another one If you really want the dark horse. I think it's around communications. And I think it's around the difference in the way that we communicate with one another across all forms of media voice, video chat, writing, how we interact with people, how we interact with our our tools with our software and in fact, how our software in Iraq's with us in our software acts with with other software that communications industry is, it's ripe for some pretty radical disruption. And you know some of the organizations and they're doing that. It's early early days on those >> changes. Final point you mentioned earlier in our conversation here about how Dev Ops is influencing impacting non tech and computer science. Really? What did you mean by that? >> Uh, well, I think you brought up unexpectedly and that that you were looking at the way Uh, some other industries are changing, and I think that cross pollination is actually quite quite powerful when you take and apply a skill and expertise you have outside of your industry. But it adds something new and interesting, too, to your professional environment. That's where you get these provocative operations. He's really creative, innovative things that you know. No one really saw it coming. >> Dave Ops principles apply to other disciplines. Yeah, agility. That's that's pointing down waterfall based processes. That's >> one phenomenal example. Imagine that for governments, right to remove some of the like the pain that you and I know. I've got to go and renew my license. My birthday's coming up. I gotta go to renew my driver's license. You know much. I'm dreading going to the the DMV Root >> Canal driver's license on the same. Exactly >> how waterfall is that experience. And could we could we beam or Mohr Agile More Dev Autopsy and some of our government across >> the U. S. Government's procurement practices airbase upon 1990 standards they still want Request a manual, a physical manual for every product violent? Who does that? >> I know that there are organizations trying to apply some open source principles to government. But I mean, think about, you know, just democracy and how being a little bit more open and transparent in the way that we are in open source code, the ability to accept patches. I have a side project, a passion for brewing beer and I love applying open source practices to the industry of brewing. And that's an example of where use professional work, Tio. Compliment a hobby. >> All right, we got to bring some cubic private label, some Q beer. >> If you like sour beer, I'm in the sour beer. >> That's okay. We like to get the pus for us. Final question for you. Five years from now, Cooper needs to be 10 years old. What's the world gonna look like when we wake up five years from now with two Cuban aunties? >> Yeah, I think, uh, I don't think we're struggling with the Cooper nutties. Uh, the community's layer. At that point, I think that's settled science, inasmuch as Lennox is pretty settled. Science, Yes, there's a release, and it comes out with incremental features and bug fixes. I think Cuban aunties is settled. Science management of of those containers is pretty well settled. Uh, five years from now, I think we end up with software, some software that that's writing software. And I don't quite mean that in the way That sounds scary, uh, and that we're eliminating developers, but I think we're creating Mohr powerful, more robust software that actually creates that that software and that's all built on top of the really strong, robust systems we have underneath >> automation to take the heavy lifting. But the human creation still keeping one of the >> humans Aaron the look it's were We're many decades away from humans being out of the loop on creative processes. >> Dustin Kirkland, he a product manager of Google Uh, Cooper Netease guru also keep alumni here in the studio talking about the coup. Burnett. He's 50 year anniversary. Of course, the kid was president creation during the beginning of the wave of communities. We love the trend we love Cloud would left home a tec. I'm Sean for here in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching.

>> live from Las Vegas. It's the queue covering Dell Technologies. World twenty nineteen. Brought to you by Dell Technologies and its ecosystem partners. >> The one Welcome to the Special Cube Live coverage here in Las Vegas with Dell Technologies World 2019. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante breaking down day one of three days of wall the wall Coverage - 2 Cube sets. Uh, big news today and dropping here. Dell Technology World's series of announcements Cloud ability, unified work spaces and then multi cloud with, uh, watershed announced with Microsoft support for VMware with Azure are guests here theCUBE alumni that Seo, senior leader of'Em Where Sanjay *** and such a great to see you, >> John and Dave always a pleasure to be on your show. >> So before we get into the hard core news around Microsoft because you and Satya have a relationship, you also know Andy Jassy very well. You've been following the Clouds game in a big way, but also as a senior leader in the industry and leading BM where, um, the evolution of the end user computing kind of genre,  that whole area is just completely transformed with mobility and cloud kind of coming together with data and all this new kinds of applications. The modern applications are different. It's changing the game on how end users, employees, normal people use computing because some announcement here on their What's your take on the ever changing role of cloud and user software? >> Yeah, John, I think that our vision , as  you know, it was the first job I came to do at VMware almost six years ago, to run and use a computing. And the vision we had at that time was that you should be able to work at the speed of life, right? You and I happen to be on a plane at the same time  yesterday coming here, we should be able to pick our amps up on our devices. You often have Internet now even up at thirty thousand feet. In the consumer world, you don't lug around your CDs, your music, your movies come to you. So the vision of any app on any device was what we articulated with the digital workspace We. had Apple and Google very well figured out. IOS later on Mac,  Android,  later on chrome . The Microsoft relationship in end use the computing was contentious because we overlapped. They had a product, PMS and in tune. But we always dreamed of a day. I tweeted out this morning that for five and a half years I competed with these guys. It was always my dream to partner with the With Microsoft. Um, you know, a wonderful person, whom I respect there, Brad Anderson. He's a friend, but we were like LeBron and Steph Curry. We were competing against each other. Today everything changed. We are now partners. Uh, Brad and I we're friends, we'll still be friends were actually partners  now why? Because we want to bring the best of the digital workspace solution VMware brings workspace one to the best of what Microsoft brings in Microsoft 365 , active directory, E3 capabilities around E. M. S and into it and combined those together to help customers get the best for any device. Apple, Google and Microsoft that's a game changer. >> Tell about the impact of the real issue of Microsoft on this one point, because is there overlap is their gaps, as Joe Tucci used to say, You can't have any. There's no there's no overlap if you have overlapped. That's not a >> better to have overlapped and seems right. A gaps. >> So where's the gaps? Where this words the overlapping cloud. Next, in the end user world, >> there is a little bit of overlap. But the much bigger picture is the complementarity. We are, for example, not trying to be a directory in the Cloud That's azure active directory, which is the sequel to Active Directory. So if we have an identity access solution that connect to active directory, we're gonna compliment that we've done that already. With Octo. Why not do that? Also inactive Directory Boom that's clear. Ignored. You overlap. Look at the much bigger picture. There's a little bit of overlap between in tune and air Watch capabilities, but that's not the big picture. The big picture is combining workspace one with E. M s. to allow Office 365 customers to get conditional access. That's a game, so I think in any partnership you have to look past, I call it sort of these Berlin Wall moments. If the U. S and Soviet Union will fighting over like East Germany, vs West Germany, you wouldn't have had that Berlin wall moment. You have to look past the overlaps. Look at the much bigger picture and I find the way by which the customer wins. When the customer wins, both sides are happy. >> Tearing down the access wall, letting you get seamless. Access the data. All right, Cloud computing housely Multi cloud announcement was azure something to tell on stage, which was a surprise no one knew was coming. No one was briefed on this. It was kind of the hush hush, the big news Michael Delll, Pat Girl singer and it's nothing to tell up there. Um, Safia did a great job and really shows the commitment of Microsoft with the M wear and Dell Technologies. What is this announcement? First, give us your take an analysis of what they announced. And what does it mean? Impact the customers? >> Yeah, listen, you know, for us, it's a further That's what, like the chess pieces lining up of'Em wars vision that we laid up many years for a hybrid cloud world where it's not all public cloud, it isn't all on premise. It's a mixture. We coined that Tom hybrid loud, and we're beginning to see that realize So we had four thousand cloud providers starting to build a stack on VM, where we announced IBM Cloud and eight of us. And they're very special relationships. But customers, some customers of azure, some of the retailers, for example, like Wal Mart was quoted in the press, released Kroger's and some others so they would ask us, Listen, we're gonna have a way by which we can host BMO Workloads in there. So, through a partnership now with Virtue Stream that's owned by Dell on DH er, we will be able to allow we, um, where were close to run in Virtue Stream. Microsoft will sell that solution as what's called Azure V M, where solutions and customers now get the benefit of GMO workloads being able to migrate there if they want to. Or my great back on the on premise. We want to be the best cloud infrastructure for that multi cloud world. >> So you've got IBM eight of us Google last month, you know, knock down now Azure Ali Baba and trying you. Last November, you announced Ali Baba, but not a solution. Right >> now, it's a very similar solutions of easy solution. There's similar what's announced with IBM and Nash >> So is it like your kids where you loved them all equally or what? You just mentioned it that Microsoft will sell the VM wear on Azure. You actually sell the eight of us, >> so there is a distinction. So let me make that clear because everything on the surface might look similar. We have built a solution that is first and preferred for us. Called were MacLeod on a W s. It's a V m er manage solution where the Cloud Foundation stack compute storage networking runs on a ws bare metal, and V. Ember manages that our reps sell that often lead with that. And that's a solution that's, you know, we announced you were three years ago. It's a very special relationship. We have now customer attraction. We announce some big deals in queue, for that's going great, and we want it even grow faster and listen. Eight of us is number one in the market, but there are the customers who have azure and for customers, one azure very similar. You should think of this A similar to the IBM ah cloud relationship where the V C P. V Partners host VM where, and they sell a solution and we get a subscription revenue result out of that, that's exactly what Microsoft is doing. Our reps will get compensated when they sell at a particular customer, but it's not a solution that's managed by BM. Where >> am I correct? You've announced that I think a twenty million dollars deal last quarter via MacLeod and A W. And that's that's an entire deal. Or is that the video >> was Oh, that was an entirely with a customer who was making a big shift to the cloud. When I talked to that customer about the types of workloads, they said that they're going to move hundreds off their APs okay on premise onto via MacLeod. And it appears, so that's, you know, that's the type of cloud transformation were doing. And now with this announcement, there will be other customers. We gave an example of few that Well, then you're seeing certain verticals that are picking as yours. We want those two also be happy. Our goal is to be the undisputed cloud infrastructure for any cloud, any cloud, any AP any device. >> I want to get your thoughts. I was just in the analysts presentation with Dell technology CFO and looking at the numbers, the performance numbers on the revenue side Don Gabin gap our earnings as well as market share. Dell. That scales because Michael Delll, when we interviewed many years ago when it was all going down, hinted that look at this benefits that scale and not everyone's seeing the obvious that we now know what the Amazon scale winds so scale is a huge advantage. Um, bm Where has scale Amazon's got scale as your Microsoft have scales scales Now the new table stakes just as an industry executive and leader as you look at the mark landscape, it's a having have not world you'd have scale. You don't If you don't have scale, you're either ecosystem partner. You're in a white space. How do companies compete in this market? Sanjay, what's your thoughts on I thinkit's >> Jonah's? You said there is a benefit to scale Dell, now at about ninety billion in revenue, has gone public on their stock prices. Done where Dellvin, since the ideal thing, the leader >> and sir, is that point >> leader in storage leader inclined computing peces with Vienna and many other assets like pivotal leaders and others. So that scale VM, Where about a ten billion dollar company, fifth largest software company doing verywell leader in the softer to find infrastructure leader, then use a computing leader and softer, defined networking. I think you need the combination of scale and speed, uh, just scale on its own. You could become a dinosaur, right? And what's the fear that every big company should have that you become ossified? And I think what we've been able to show the world is that V M wear and L can move with scale and speed. It's like having the combination of an elephant and a cheetah and won and that to me special. And for companies like us that do have scaled, we've to constantly ask ourselves, How do we disrupt ourselves? How do we move faster? How do we partner together? How do we look past these blind spots? How do we pardon with big companies, small companies and the winner is the customer. That's the way we think. And we could keep doing that, you'll say so. For example, five, six years ago, nobody thought of VMware--this is going before Dell or EMC--in the world of networking, quietly with ten thousand customers, a two million dollar run rate, NSX has become the undisputed leader and software-defined networking. So now we've got a combination of server, storage and a networking story and Dell VMware, where that's very strong And that's because we moved with speed and with scale. >> So of course, that came to an acquisition with Nice Sarah. Give us updates on the recent acquisitions. Hep C e o of Vela Cloud. What's happening there? >> Yeah, we've done three. That, I think very exciting to kind of walk through them in chronological order about eighteen months ago was Velo Cloud. We're really excited about that. It's sort of like the name, velocity and cloud fast. Simple Cloud based. It is the best solution. Ston. How do we come to deciding that we went to talk to our partners like t other service providers? They were telling us this is the best solution in town. It connects to the data center story to the cloud story and allows our virtual cloud network to be the best softer. To find out what you can, you have your existing Mpls you might have your land infrastructure but there's nobody who does softer to find when, like Philip, they're excited about that cloud health. We're very excited about that because that brings a multi cloud management like, sort of think of it like an e r P system on top of a w eso azure to allow you to manage your costs and resource What ASAP do it allows you to manage? Resource is for materials world manufacturing world. In this world, you've got resources that are sitting on a ws or azure. Uh, cloud held does it better than anybody else. Hefty. Oh, now takes a Cuban eighty story that we'd already begun with pivotal and with Google is you remember at at PM world two years ago. And that's that because the founders of Cuban eighties left Google and started FTO. So we're bringing that DNA we've become now one of the top two three contributors to communities, and we want to continue to become the de facto platform for containers. If you go to some of the airports in San Francisco, New York, I think Keilani and Heathrow to you'LL see these ads that are called container where okay, where do you think the Ware comes from Vienna, where, OK, and our goal is to make containers as container where you know, come to you from the company that made vmc possible of'Em where So if we popularized PM's, why not also popularised the best enterprise contain a platform? That's what helped you will help us do >> talk about Coburn at ease for a minute because you have an interesting bridge between end user computing and their cloud. The service is micro. Services that are coming on are going to be powering all these APS with either data and or these dynamic services. Cooper, Nettie sees me the heart of that. We've been covering it like a blanket. Um, I'm gonna get your take on how important that is. Because back Nelson, you're setting the keynote at the Emerald last year. Who burn it eases the dial tone. Is Cooper Netease at odds with having a virtual machine or they complimentary? How does that evolving? Is it a hedge? What's the thoughts there? >> Yeah, First off, Listen, I think the world has begun to realize it is a world of containers and V ems. If you looked at the company that's done the most with containers. Google. They run their containers in V EMS in their cloud platform, so it's not one or the other. It's vote. There may be a world where some parts of containers run a bare metal, but the bulk of containers today run and Beyonce And then I would say, Secondly, you know, five. Six years ago, people all thought that Doctor was going to obliterate VM where, But what happened was doctors become a very good container format, but the orchestration layer from that has not become daugher. In fact, Cuban Eddie's is kind of taking a little of the head and steam off Dr Swarm and Dr Enterprise, and it is Cooper Navy took the steam completely away. So Senses Way waited for the right time to embrace containers because the obvious choice initially would have been some part of the doctor stack. We waited as Borg became communities. You know, the story of how that came on Google. We've embraced that big time, and we've stated a very important ball hefty on All these moves are all part of our goal to become the undisputed enterprise container platform, and we think in a multi cloud world that's ours to lose. Who else can do multi cloud better than VM? Where may be the only company that could have done that was Red Hat. Not so much now, inside IBM, I think we have the best chance of doing that relative. Anybody else >> Sanjay was talking about on our intro this morning? Keynote analysis. Talking about the stock price of Dell Technologies, comparing the stock price of'Em where clearly the analysis shows that the end was a big part of the Dell technologies value. How would you summarize what v m where is today? Because on the Kino there was a Bank of America customers. She said she was the CTO ran, she says, Never mind. How we got here is how we go floors the end wars in a similar situation where you've got so much success, you always fighting for that edge. But as you go forward as a company, there's all these new opportunities you outlined some of them. What should people know about the VM? We're going forward. What is the vision in your words? What if what is VM where >> I think packed myself and all of the key people among the twenty five thousand employees of'Em are trying to create the best infrastructure company of all time for twenty one years. Young. OK, and I think we have an opportunity to create an incredible brand. We just have to his use point on the begins show create platforms. The V's fear was a platform. Innocent is a platform workspace. One is a platform V san, and the hyper convert stack of weeks right becomes a platform that we keep doing. That Carbonetti stuff will become a platform. Then you get platforms upon platforms. One platforms you create that foundation. Stone now is released. ADelle. I think it's a better together message. You take VX rail. We should be together. The best option relative to smaller companies like Nutanix If you take, you know Veum Where together with workspace one and laptops now put Microsoft in the next. There's nobody else. They're small companies like Citrix Mobile. I'm trying to do it. We should be better than them in a multi cloud world. They maybe got the companies like Red Hat. We should have bet on them. That said, the end. Where needs toe also have a focus when customers don't have Dale infrastructure. Some people may have HP servers and emcee storage or Dell Silvers and netapp storage or neither. Dellery emcee in that case, usually via where, And that's the way we roll. We want to be relevant to a multi cloud, multi server, multi storage, any hardware, any cloud. Any AP any device >> I got. I gotta go back to the red hat. Calm in a couple of go. I could see you like this side of IBM, right? So So it looks like a two horse race here. I mean, you guys going hard after multi cloud coming at it from infrastructure, IBM coming at it with red hat from a pass layer. I mean, if I were IBM, I had learned from VM where leave it alone, Let it blossom. I mean, we have >> a very good partisan baby. Let me first say that IBM Global Services GTS is one about top sai partners. We do a ton of really good work with them. Uh, I'm software re partner number different areas. Yeah, we do compete with red hat with the part of their portfolios. Relate to contain us. Not with Lennox. Eighty percent plus of their businesses. Lennox, They've got parts of J Boss and Open Stack that I kind of, you know, not doing so well. But we do compete with open ship. That's okay, but we don't know when we can walk and chew gum so we can compete with Red Hat. And yet partner with IBM. That's okay. Way just need to be the best at doing containing platform is better than open shifter. Anybody, anything that red hat has were still partner with IBM. We have to be able to look at a world that's not black and white. And this partnership with Microsoft is a good example. >> It's not a zero sum game, and it's a huge market in its early days. Talk >> about what's up for you now. What's next? What's your main focus? What's your priorities? >> Listen, we're getting ready for VM World now. You know in August we want to continue to build momentum on make many of these solutions platforms. So I tell our sales reps, take the number of customers you have and add a zero behind that. OK, so if you've got ten thousand customers of NSX, how do we get one hundred thousand customers of insects. You have nineteen thousand customers of Visa, which, by the way, significantly head of Nutanix. How do we have make one hundred ninety thousand customers? And we have that base? Because we have V sphere and we have the Delll base. We have other partners. We have, I think, eighty thousand customers off and use of computing tens of millions of devices. How do we make sure that we are workspace? One is on billion. Device is very much possible. That's the vision. >> I think that I think what's resonating for me when I hear you guys, when you hear you talk when we have conversations also in Pat on stage talks about it, the simplification message is a good one and the consistency of operating across multiple environments because it sounds great that if you can achieve that, that's a good thing. How you guys get into how you making it simple to run I T. And consistent operating environment. It's all about keeping the customer in the middle of this. And when we listen to customs, all of these announcements the partnership's when there was eight of us, Microsoft, anything that we've done, it's about keeping the customer first, and the customer is basically guiding up out there. And often when I sit down with customers, I had the privilege of talking hundreds of thousands of them. Many of these CEOs the S and P five hundred I've known for years from S athe of'Em were they'LL Call me or text me. They want us to be a trusted advisor to help them understand where and how they should move in their digital transformation and compared their journey to somebody else's. So when we can bring the best off, for example, of developer and operations infrastructure together, what's called DEV Ops customers are wrestling threw that in there cloud journey when we can bring a multi device world with additional workspace. Customers are wrestling that without journey there, trying to figure out how much they keep on premise how much they move in the cloud. They're thinking about vertical specific applications. All of these places where if there's one lesson I've learned in my last ten twenty years of it has become a trusted advisor to your customers. Lean on them and they will lean on you on when you do that. I mean the beautiful world of technology is there's always stuff to innovate. >> Well, they have to lean on you because they can't mess around with all this infrastructure. They'LL never get their digital transformation game and act together, right? Actually, >>= it's great to see you. We'Ll see you at PM, >> Rollo. Well, well, come on, we gotta talk hoops. All right, All right, All right, big. You're a big warriors fan, right? We're Celtics fan. Would be our dream, for both of you are also Manny's themselves have a privileged to go up against the great Warriors. But what's your prediction this year? I mean, I don't know, and I >> really listen. I love the warriors. It's ah, so in some senses, a little bit of a tougher one. Now the DeMarcus cousins is out for, I don't know, maybe all the playoffs, but I love stuff. I love Katie. I love Clay, you know, and many of those guys is gonna be a couple of guys going free agents, so I want to do >> it again. Joy. Well, last because I don't see anybody stopping a Celtics may be a good final. That would be fun if they don't make it through the rafters, though. That's right. Well, I Leonard, it's tough to make it all right. That sounds great. >> Come on. Sanjay Putin, CEO of BM Wear Inside the Cube, Breaking down his commentary of you on the landscape of the industry and the big news with Microsoft there. Other partner's bringing you all the action here Day one of three days of coverage here in the Cubicle two sets a canon of cube coverage out there. We're back with more after this short break.

>>Yeah. Live from New York. It's the Cube covering in Forum 20 >>16. Brought to you by in four. Now here's your host, Dave Volante. Yeah. Welcome back to New York City, everybody. This is the Cube, the Cube. We go out to the events, and every now and then we just have these great special segment's. And this is one of them. The only 22 is here. She's a social activist, the daughter of the famous Desmond Tutu. Lara. Logan is here. Laura's, of course, 60 Minutes correspondent and Karina Holcomb. When you hear her story, you won't believe it's super athlete. Ladies, welcome to the Cube. It's really a pleasure having you on, so we hear it in for Charles Phillips. Somehow in the in 14 gather some always gather interesting people, and then we'll start with you. You guys were just up on stage telling your stories about how you overcome amazing diversity. All happen to be women. But it's not just a story about women. We're gonna talk about the human condition and what's happening in the world and how to effect change. So tell us a little bit about your background and you know some of the challenges that you had to overcome. >>Well, I mean, I think that my background is as a black South African who grew up during a part of that system that basically said that black South Africans were not black South Africans, that we were not members off our own country. And coming out of that experience and the struggle against apartheid eight has been has been foundational for me in terms of looking at how terrible our world can be and how amazing our world could be in the people who take the time and the commitment to change the terrible into good. >>And you grew up in the heart of that time period. I remember your father was very much out spoken against, for example, the Reagan policies of constructive engagement and constructive engagement they call. He said, No, you know, bring on the pain because we'll suffer with with a purpose. That kind of dogma, if you will, is actually good dogma. In a way, is it? >>I mean, I think that there is a point where you have to decide that there is something you are willing to stand up for, and I think that the core for sanctions against apartheid South Africa. We're basically saying black South Africans are already suffering, and right now we're suffering in a system that offers us nothing. At least we know that economic pressure brought on the South African government is pressure that is working towards our liberation. And so I think that that that that example shows is basically that people don't People are not short sighted in general. Um, you know, I think that way often play to people's short sightedness in saying that is the enemy. This is what you need to be afraid off. If only we had our country back, you know, but that the reality is that most people are not short sighted and people say What? What What do we need to do to make this world better? Maybe not for me, but maybe for my Children coming after me >>and Larry your experiences. Obviously you know a lot about this this era from a different perspective, but also in your own world have overcome incredible adversity. Tell us a little bit about you know, I mean, everybody knows who you are and, you know, sees you on 60 minutes but maybe they don't know much about your background. >>I think you know one thing that people probably don't really know and understand who I am. Is that for me to sit with Naomi into meat Now? Today it's such a big thing. It's such an emotional thing because I knew her parents and in South Africa working as a journalist. I knew her father particularly well. But I met her mother in her home in the Soweto township, where, I think was your family home growing up. And, uh, people like Desmond Tutu for me have never been recognised enough for how great they were and what they gave to all of us. Many people thought the revolution in South Africa was only about liberating and freeing black people. But it wasn't because all of all of the people of South Africa who whose hearts were in that struggle, we're liberated and free Mandela and 22 and all of those people, the activists, right down to the student activists down to I mean, I knew South Africans, black South African kids who spent their lives traveling from school to school to deliver the message of Comrade Mandela in those schools, and they lived on the run and they were hunted by the security police and they gave up everything, and that message was always the same. It never varied from Mandela to to to go all the way down through the ranks of a NC because it was one that resonated with all of us because it was about freedom and justice and human rights. And my soul honestly was forged in the fire of that struggle and everything I've done since I left South Africa. Everything I've been able to do in my life, everything I've been able to overcome surviving, being gang raped in Tahrir Square in Egypt. All of that was born from the example that was set by people like know me and her parents and every black South African at that time, right, because they all suspended everything of their own in favor of the greater good. There was no talk about child abuse, you know, or domestic violence or things like that. Nothing of that nature ever made it into the national conversation because black South Africans particularly put everything aside in that for that fight for that struggle. And so the greatest lessons of my life were born there, and that place gave birth to me and gave me the ability to put myself in someone else's shoes. And I've used those lessons everywhere I've gone. And I've always been well received in Afghanistan or Iraq or all of these places, because I've never gone in with a closed heart because because black people in South Africa opened my heart and opened my mind and taught me how to think and see things from other perspectives and help me understand that my way wasn't the only way or the way I knew that was familiar might not be the best way. Sometimes it might be. I never apologize for who I am. I always stand up for what I believe in. I was raised in the country of people who stood up for what they believed in and and paid and gave everything for that literally gave everything. >>So those early days of the seed of your inspiration and a lot of it was rooted in Nonviolence, of course, a zone underpinning. There was a lot of violence, of course, at the time. >>Violence for us, you know, I grew up thinking that the police and the army were only instruments of evil. I never understood them any other way, and I had to unlearn that lesson in many respects because, for example, the American military that's often demonized. But I can tell you, I've lost count of the situations that I've seen, where the level of professionalism and humanity that has been shown by the American military has has. It is so counter to the Hollywood narrative that's out there, that every everyone joins the military because they like to kill people and don't care about human rights and don't care about doing any good. I've never found that to be true, and I really have to unlearn those lessons off. Seeing the South African military is the architect of evil. Um, and grow up, I guess, and understand the many different shades of that. >>Karina. Let's bring you into the conversation Story may not be a well known, but it's a whole that's amazing. So >>or more amazing. Super super >>athlete, more amazing super athlete went through with just an amazing experience near death experience. Tell us about your background, how you're still here. >>Yeah, I just feel so humble, you know, sitting next to these two women being me. Yeah, well, I don't know where to start. I mean, I started. I came from my mother when I was four years old. She had a major accident car accident that I was part of. And, um, we had a front front collection and she was put in a coma for four months. And when she woke up from that coma, she had to relearn how to walk. She had to relearn how to talk. She had to start all over from scratch. And she had lost all members. She had no idea who even who I waas so for me, like she survived her accident. But as a mother, she was taken away from me and for me, like I became a ever restless kid. And I think that restlessness somehow had to, you know, I had to get it out somehow. And I got this urge into into finding the things that I could master. And eventually I got into base jumping. I got into big mountain skiing and this was a way for me to channel my everyday life are coping with my everyday life because going to the mountains, Um, jumping off of a cliff, being in a situation where I felt like I could control life and death. Um, it made me feel like all of my everyday problems. They felt mundane and small, and they were nothing in comparison because I had this strength and I could master this situation. So for >>me, it >>was it was my way of dealing, you know, And, um, I lived in a dream world. You know, I I traveled the world as a professional base jumper and, ah, free skier. I was filming with one of some of the biggest companies in the world. Documentaries, action movies sponsored from top to toe. It was a dream. And then I had a major accident in 2006. I, um, hit the ground with more than 65 MPH. I crushed everything that I had from my hips and down 25 open fractures, and I was sentenced to life in a wheelchair. My doctor, he told me that I would never walk again. And you know, when you've spent your entire life, um, as an athlete, it's your job. You know, it's all your friends are doing the same like you do. But most importantly, it's your identity. And all of that is taken away from you. Just like that, you're left with nothing, and you need to start from scratch. You need to start to rebuild yourself. You need to define your values. You need to figure out who am I when I no longer have my two legs? Um, What's gonna happen with my friends there? They're going to be there for me. They're going to still be around. Am I ever going to be able to have a family of my own? You know, you you get all these questions, and there are no answers. Ah, so definitely I went through, um, some of the toughest years of my life being stuck, you know, in a rehab room, hospital room and trying to rebuild my own life. And it took me, um, took me three years to learn how to walk. It took me, uh, four years to make it back to the mountains, to my passion, to skiing, and to like to come back where I belong. And, uh, I've been continuing to work with that kind of rebuild my life and find out who I want to be. >>And then, of course, inspire others. So in the years after your accident, it's obviously very personal. You're inside your own head, wondering if you'll never be able to walk again. We have a family. But then, however you use that then as a springboard to help other people, >>well, you know my >>story. I mean, falling down from the sky is obviously not something that you do every day. But I do believe that my stories universal because we all go through adversities in life. We'll have our own personal challenges, you know? And I realized by telling my story by being honest and naked, you know, to all these strangers and by revealing my weakness, then that would be I would be able to help and inspire other people to believe in themselves, to try to find their own passion. Find out what makes them happy and, you know, maybe even teach them, like what I will or not teach them. But tell them what help for me and what actually made me continue on my journey. And, you know, I'm thinking that if I have my story and the fact that I am, you know, telling it and using my experience now into inspiring other. If I can, you know, help one person to go through his or hers adversities. If I could make one person changed his or her life for the better, it's worth while you know when my story has has been a good thing. >>So the discourse in the United States anyway, today is such a polarizing conversation. But for example, you have, on the one hand, black lives matter movement. On the other hand, people trying to question the need for that movement and it becomes a really not even a rational conversation. It becomes sort of a heated debate that's quite irrational. Why is that? Why can't we have a rational conversation about such a critical critical issues? And should we? >>Well, I mean, yes, I think that we need to, and I think that the conversation is actually not black lives matter as much as it's a conversation about race and racism in this country, and I think that the conversation about black lives matter. If it does one thing it is to highlight the fact that we haven't as the U. S. As the country ever really had a conversation about race and racism and US history and the role that race and racism has played in U. S. History. Economically, politically, socially, all of those things. And so we go through these cycles almost where we kind of stopped the conversation. And then something happens and we say, Well, we don't need the conversation. Actually, everything is fine And then something happens, and then we kind of start the conversation. But I mean, I think that it's very clear to me that it is a fundamental, quick conversation that we need as a country now. Yeah, as much as we ever have in the past. I think that, you know, there was with the election of President Obama, there was a conversation about a post racial us, which it was never, never true. But, I mean, what what it did bring up, I think, is that it brought out the residual racism in places that way thought it had seized to exist, or at least that it had been very deeply enough that it wasn't going to bother anybody. >>I don't know if you're were taught in grade school high school about Africa. I was, and we learned a lot about Europe. You heard anything about? Of course. You were educated. >>We grew up in Africa. >>Much about effort. Did not continent either? No, no, no. No >>African history to go to South Africa to learn >>we had to educate ourselves. >>Okay, >>wait. Do way. Learn about Yes. Okay, we do an end for me. I mean, we just had a brief conversation about it because watching the news, I mean, coming from Norway, coming from Europe. But we obviously live in a completely different world, and we have a totally different relationship to the police. We have a different relationship to black people to yell, I don't know to call to me. We're all people. And of course, we have racism in Norway as everywhere else in the world. But it's so it's not understandable that we can actually treat people like that. And for me, I mean human life. It's like a kid. It's a kid, it's still a kid. And I don't understand how we can see and not see the kids that we all see. I mean, >>but are we making progress? There is. We're just not making progress fast enough Or are we just going sideways? >>Well, you know, for me, as a white South African growing up in a country that was the prior of the world, I actually grew up thinking that racism was a South African thing. I didn't know any better. And I thought when I left the borders of South Africa that I would be leaving racism behind. And instead what I found was that it was everywhere. And then it has helped me understand many conflicts when I was in Kosovo and I would listen to the Serbian people talk about the Albanians, you could have substituted black and white in that conversation, and it was so it was easy for me to identify what that conflict was really about. At its heart was that the Serbs don't view the Albanians as human beings. They see them as as less and is worthless. And, you know you can have the same conversation in Australia. And when I came to the United States, I was shocked to find that people when I went to places like Atlanta, people would say, Well, that's, you know, the black side of Atlanta and that's the white side. And I was like, Why they say that? Say that to me again and on and that was really an education for me, and I found that our lives in South Africa were much more integrated in many, many respects than in the United States. Just because you had 40 million or so black people in five million also white people, and so a degree in level of integration that's unheard of in many parts off America was normal in South Africa, even under apartheid, That didn't that didn't explain or excuse the racist side of the ideology that existed at the time. But so for me, and I'm always very careful because, you know, I'm not American and I didn't grow up here. But my Children are born here and my husband is American in my life is invested in the values that make America the South African Constitution that was written in part by Naomi's father and certainly was formed by his actions and the commitment that he made throughout his life is based on the United States Constitution. And one thing I like to tell people here is you may have learned about the constitution growing up in high school. But I lived that I was on the streets of South Africa when you would have 50,000, 100,000, 150,000 people come to protest for Nelson Mandela and would walk holding hands, singing that the national anthem, which was banned at the time and literally have the riot police and watch people fall as the bullets, you know? Okay, the rubber bullets hit them and rubber bullets can kill. And I would go into the homes of people whose Children had died protesting and, you know, had been executed in the back of the head and their bodies cost aside by the South African police. And so for me, freedom of speech is not something theoretical. It's not something academic. It's not a great idea that the forefathers came up with its something that lives and breathes in my blood and in my DNA and in my my dreams and then everything that makes me human. And so it's I hate it when people say, Oh, you're an adrenaline junkie. You like to go to war. I don't like to go to war. I like to go to places where those values are being tested. And I believe what Mandela always taught and two to lived that you have. The people are the founders off the democracy. And I think the sheriff in Dallas just said a similar thing in his press conference recently. Democracy is nothing without the people that we hold our leaders accountable. And if we don't hold our leaders accountable and we don't hold out, press accountable, then we don't have democracy. You have some fake version of it. And I think sometimes people have forgotten that that freedom isn't free and that means many different things. But it means getting off your but, you know, and getting out there and standing up for what you believe in in one form a way or another. So you know I'm not so I don't think it's my place to say whether we met. Have we made who is we? Have we made progress? Have we not? I can tell you what you know what One of the senior black people in law enforcement and the FBI said to me on my way. When I saw him on their way here, his version of it compared to. You know, one of the guys in New York on the street last night was talking to me about last night and their views was so different. And and I and I looked at CNN last I didn't. They had three black congressmen, all you know, from those district all talking about that. But you do have free black congressmen representing those district's, and that counts for something. But it doesn't mean that everything is fixed. One of my closest friends in the United States shows where she was going to live specifically because she had to black babies and she didn't want her son's growing up in a certain part of New York, where she said, I wasn't gonna have a moment piece knowing that they were out on those streets. So she took them to a Jewish name, a white Jewish neighborhood you know of Scarsdale, because she felt they'd be safer there. So So there's there's one thing I learned in my job is that the closer you get to an issue, the more complex it becomes. My mother used to say, The older I get, the less I know you're more you learned unless you know. >>Okay, so I'm fortunate we're out of time. I could go forever with you. Three amazing women. But last question, maybe each of you could address. >>I'd like to know one thing, though, because I always like to start with the little things. And I would like to learn from YouTube if I were to do one thing you know, to make the situation better. To try to eliminate the fear of the black people of of apartheid, of racism. What would I do if I wanted to start just little by little, to make it better? How could I do >>talking as a black as a black person? I always I always say that for me. The first step that I would like people to make is to acknowledge that racism exists because I think that's so very often that what we're up against, people saying, Well, you're just imagining all of this and the practical ways I mean, so one practical way for me, which I have asked of people, is that when you see when you're in a shop, for instance, and you see security following a black woman, which is my experience, I'm shopping and all of a sudden security is for some reason. I look particularly suspicious that when you see that and you see me turn and ask the security guard, why is that? You're following me in particular And then they say something like, Oh, I wasn't following you in particular, why you're getting all the say no as a white person to stand and say I saw that, too. And I am going to make I'm gonna make make it clear that this is not some crazy, angry black woman playing out here in the department store, the grocery store. This is a reality of people's lives. And again, as you say, it's one small step, and it makes a difference in one person's life in that particular instance. But it also is a step off, say, acknowledging that racism is something that exists in our communities. >>That's really true. Tangible frustration. Isn't that great insight from people of color that you talk to get pulled over? You can hear their sense of frustration, and they say you, as a white person, don't understand what it's like. You have to say I certainly don't Unfortunately I say we have to leave it there. Thank you so much. >>Thank you >>for coming on the Cube. Great to meet you all, >>and just so we don't get into trouble. The other side of that is I have a friend who's husband is a policeman, who every time he walks out the door every night, she doesn't know if he's coming home judgment. She lives in that kind of fear. You know, >>anybody puts on a uniform >>which is not justifying >>or something, but that's not the other side of the story. That's my point is that there are black policemen. But it's like eight time. We talk about racism. It's as though we're saying we're attacking the police, which has never been what black lives. >>We talk about things without that. But I also >>believe that it has a lot to do with information, lack of information, like you're saying that you're not even talked in school and we do naturally have fear of the unknown, and I fear everything that I don't know anything about. And so if I don't know about South Africa, if I don't learn from from school, I will naturally have fear because I don't understand you. I don't I don't see your different from over me. >>So that's where for me? It began at home where I was raised in a home where we were taught not to fear anything. Yeah, and we were told to be open to people and we would talk to listen. And we were told to know what we stood for and not be afraid to stand up for that. And that's the universal thing that you talk about. That's the thing that you can take anywhere. And so, for one small thing I can do is make sure my Children don't see color their whole lives. They've seen they've had. We've had people sleeping in our house, from Africa, from Afghanistan from everywhere. They learn all about little bits about different religions. They have African costumes and closets. They have, you know, traditional Pashtun dress and, you know, they they learn about everything. And I'm honest with them with the things I don't like about it. You know, I don't want my child, my daughter, to grow up wearing a burka, not allowed to have a driver's license or anything. You know, I am honest about the fact that I don't like that. I don't think political correctness means you have to say that everything about everyone else is wonderful to me. It's about it's about those things that bind all of us that are universally good and university just And you have to have the courage to stand up for that and also have the courage to say, You know what? I don't I don't actually believe in that side of it. I don't actually think that that's right And that's the next step off the conversation. It's not enough to just all hold hands and sing, come by and say, Oh, everybody's great, We accept everybody and it's a wonderful I did a panel with old with representative of the Dalai Lama and the chief rabbi of the United States and one of the senior archbishops in the country and all these different religions. Every religion was represented, and about halfway through I said, Okay, enough, enough of this conversation. Let's talk about what you don't like about each other's religions because that's what separates us. It's not what we like about each other and accept about each other and doesn't frighten us about each other. That that creates the problems. It's what we don't and everyone you know. That conversation broke down very quickly at that point, and it went from being a love fest. Two very clear. Now, you started to see that each person thought their religion was superior understanding >>as well. >>And that's what leads to understanding that. You have to understand that in order to be able to change the conversation at >>all. Wonderful. Thank you all >>for coming. Thank you. Thank you, Thank you. >>Keep it right there, everybody. We'll be back. Wow. What a great segment. >>Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah!