(gentle instrumental music) >> Okay, we're back with Tom Christensen who's the global technology advisor and executive analyst at Hitachi Vantara. And we're exploring how Hitachi Vantara drives customer success, specifically with partners. You know Tom, it's funny, back in the early part of the last decade, there was this big push around, remember it was called green IT, and then the 07-08 financial crisis sort of put that on the back burner. But sustainability is back, and it seems to be emerging as a mega trend in IT. Are you seeing this? Is it same wine new label? How real is this trend and where's the pressure coming from? >> Well, we clearly see that sustainability is a mega trend in the IT sector. And when we talk to CIOs or senior IT leaders or simply just invite them in for a round table on this topic, they all tell us that they get the pressure from three different angles. The first one is really end consumers, and end consumers nowadays are beginning to ask questions about the green profile and what are the company doing for the environment. And this one here is both private and public companies as well. The second pressure that we see, is coming from the government. The government thinks that companies are not moving fast enough, so they want to put laws in that are forcing companies to move faster. And we see that in Germany as an example, where they are giving a law into enterprise companies to follow the human rights and sustainability, three levels back in the supply chain. But we also see that in EU they are talking about a new law that they want to put into action, and that one will replicate to 27 countries in Europe. But this one is not only Europe, it's the rest of the world where governments are talking about forcing companies to move faster than we have done in the past. So we see two types of pressure coming in, and at the same time, this one here starts off at the CEO at a company, because they want to have the competitive edge and be able to be relevant in the market. And for that reason they're beginning to put KPIs on themselves as the CEO, but they also are hiring sustainability officers with sustainability KPIs. And when that happens, it replicates down in the organization and we can now see that some CIOs, they have a KPI, others are indirectly measured. So we see direct and indirect. The same with CFOs and other C levels, they all get measured on it, and for that reason it replicates down to IT people. And that's what they tell us on these round tables. I get that pressure every day, every week, every quarter. But where is the pressure coming from? Well, the pressure is coming from end consumers and new laws that are put into action, that force companies to think differently and have focus on their green profile and doing something good for the environment. So those are the three pressures that we see. But when we talk to CFOs as an example, we are beginning to see that they have a new score system where they put out request for proposal, and this one is in about 58% of all request for proposal that we receive, that they are asking for our sustainability take, what are you doing as a vendor? And in their store system, cost has the highest priority and number two is sustainability. It weighs about 15, 20 to 25% when they look at your proposal that you submit to a CFO. But in some cases the CFO say, "I don't even know where the pressure is coming from. I'm asked to do it." But they're asked to do it because end consumers, laws, and so on, are forcing them to do it. But I would answer, yeah sustainability has become a maker trend this year and it's even growing faster and faster every month we move forward. >> Yeah, Tom, it feels like it's here to stay this time. And your point about public policy is right on, and we saw the EU leading with privacy and GDPR, and it looks like it's going to lead again here. Just shifting gears, I've been to a number of Hitachi facilities in my day. Odawara is my favorite, because on a clear day you can see Mount Fuji but other plants I've been to as well. What does Hitachi do in the production facility to reduce CO2 emissions? >> Yeah, I think you're hitting a good point here. So what we have, we have a facility in Japan and we have one in Europe and we have one in America as well, to keep our production close to our customers and reduce transportation for the factory out to our customers. But you know, in the EMEA region, back in 2013, we created a new factory. And when we did that, we were asked to do it in an energy neutral way, which means that we are moving from being powered by black energy to green energy in that factory. And we built a factory with concrete walls that were extremely thick to make it cold in the summertime and hot in the wintertime, with minimum energy consumption. But we also put 17,000 square meters of solar panels on the roof to power that factory. We were collecting rain water to flush it in the toilet. We were removing light bulbs with LED. And when we send out our equipment to our customers, we put it in a rack, instead of sending out 25 packages to a customer. We want to reduce the waste as much as possible. And you know, this one was pretty new back in 2013. It was actually the biggest project in EMEA at that time. I will say if you want to build a factory today that's the way you are going to do it. But it has a huge impact for us when electricity is going up in price and oil and gas prices are coming up. We are running with energy neutral in our facility, which is a big benefit for us going forward. But it is also a competitive advantage to be able to explain what we have been doing the last eight, nine years in that factory. We are actually walking the talk, and we make that decision, even though it was a really hard decision to do back in 2013. When you do decisions like this one here, the return of investment is not coming the first couple of years. It's something that comes far out in the future, but right now we are beginning to see the benefit of the decision we made back in 2013. >> I want to come back to the economics, but before I do, I want to pick up on something you just said, because you hear the slogan, "Sustainability by design." A lot of people might think, "Okay, that's just a marketing slogan to vector into this mega trend," but it sounds like it's something that you've been working on for quite some time based on your last comments. Can you add some color to that? >> Yeah, so, the factory is just one example of what you need to do to reduce the CO2 emission in that part of the life of a product. The other one is really innovating new technology to drive down the CO2 emission. And here we are laser focused on what we call decarbonization by design. And this one is something that we have done the last eight years, so this is far from new for us. So between each generation of products that we have put out over the last eight years, we've been able to reduce the CO2 emission by up to 30 to 60% between each generation of products that we have put into the market. So we are laser focused on driving that one down but we are far from done, we still got eight years before we hit our first target net zero in 2030. So we got a roadmap where we want to achieve even more with new technology. At its core it's a technology innovator and our answer is to reduce the CO2 emission, and the decarbonization of the data center is going to be through innovating new technology because it has the speed, the scale, and the impact to make it possible to reach your sustainability objectives going forward. >> How about recycling? Where does that fit? I mean, the other day it was... A lot of times at a hotel you used to get bottled water now you get plant-based waters in a box and so we are seeing it all around us. But for a manufacturer of your size, recycling and circular economy, how does that fit into your plans? >> Yeah, let me try to explain what we are doing here because one thing is how you produce it. Another thing is how you innovate all that new technology, but you also need to combine that with service and software, otherwise you won't get the full benefit. So what we are doing here when it comes to exploring circular economics, it's kind of where we have an eternity mindset. We want to see if it is possible to get nothing out to the landfill. This is the aim that we are looking at. So when you buy a product today you get an option to keep it in your data center for up to 10 years. But what we want to do when you keep it for 10 years, is to upgrade only parts of the system. So let's say that you need more CPU power, you just switch the controller to next generation controller and you get more CPU power in your storage system, to keep it those 10 years. But you can also expand with new disk media, flash media, even media that doesn't exist today will be supported over those 10 years. You can change your protocol in the front end of your system to have new protocols and connect to your server environment with the latest and greatest technology. See, the benefit here is that, you don't have to put your system into a truck and a recycle process after three years, four years, five years, you can actually postpone that one for 10 years. And this one is reducing the emission again. But once we take it back, you put it on the truck and we take it into our recycling facility. And here we take our own equipment, like computer network and switches, but we also take competitive equipment in and we recycle as much as we can. In many cases, it's only 1% that goes to the landfill or 2% that goes to the landfill. The remaining material will go into new products either in our cycle or in other parts of the electronic industry. So it will be reused for other products. So when we look at what we've been doing for many years that has been linear economics, where you buy material, you make your product, you put it into production, and it goes into the landfill afterwards. The recycling economics is really, you buy material, you make your product, you put it into production, and you recycle as much as possible. The remaining part will go into the landfill. But where we are right now is exploring circular economics, where you actually buy material, make it, put it into production, and you reuse as much as you can. And only 1-2% is going into the landfill right now. So we have come along, and we honestly believe that the circular economics is the new economics going forward for many industries in the world. >> Yeah, and that addresses some of the things that we were talking about earlier about sustainability by design. You have to design that so that you can take advantage of that circular economy. I do want to come back to the economics, because in the early days of so-called green IT, there was a lot of talk about, "Well I'll never be able to lower the power bill, and the facilities people don't talk to the IT people," and that's changed. So explain why sustainability is good business, not just an expense item, but can really drive bottom line profitability. I understand it's going to take some time, but help us understand your experience there Tom. >> Yeah, let me try to explain that one. You often get the question about sustainability. Isn't that a cost? I mean how much does it cost to get that green profile? But you know, in reality, when you do a deep dive into the data center, you realize that sustainability is a cost saving activity. And this one is quite interesting, and we have now done more than 1,200 data center assessment around the world, where we have looked at data centers. And let me give you just an average number from a global bank that we work with. And this one is not different from all the other cases that we are doing. So when we look at the storage area, what we can do on the electricity by moving an old legacy data center into a new modernized infrastructure, is to reduce the electricity by 96%. This is a very high number, and a lot of money that you save, but the CO2 emission is reduced by 96% as well. The floor space can go up to 35% reduction as well. When we move down to the compute part, we are talking about 61% reduction in electricity on the compute part, just by moving from legacy to new modern infrastructure, and 61% on the CO2 emission as well. And see this one here is quite interesting, because you save electricity and you do something really good for the environment at the same time. In this case I'm talking about here, the customer was paying 2.5 million U.S. dollar annually, and by just modernizing that infrastructure, we could bring it down to 1.1 million. This is 1.4 million savings straight into your pocket and you can start the next activity here, looking at moving from virtual machine to containers. Containers only use 10% of the CPU resources compared to a virtual machine. Move up to the application layer if you have that kind of capability in your organization. Modernizing your application with sustainability by design and you can reduce the CO2 emission by up to 50%. There's so much we can do in that data center, but we often start at the infrastructure first and then we move up in the chain and we give customers benefit in all these different layers. >> Yeah, a big theme of this program today is what you guys are doing with partners. Are partners aware of this in your view? Are they in tune with it? Are they demanding it? What message would you like to give the channel partners, resellers, and distributors who may be watching? >> So the way to look at it is that we offer a platform with product, service and software, and that platform can elevate the conversation much higher up in the organization, and partners get the opportunity here to go up and talk to sustainability officers about what we are doing. They can even take it up to the CEO, and talk about how can you reach your sustainability KPI in the data center. What we've see in this round table when we have sustainability officers in the room, is that they are very focused on the green profile, and what is going out of the company. They rarely have a deep understanding of what is going on in the data center. Why? Because it's really technical and they don't have that background. So just by elevating the conversation to these sustainability officers, you can tell them what they should measure and how they should measure that. And you can be sure that that will replicate down to the CIO and the CFO, and there will immediately be a request for proposal going forward. So this one here is really a golden opportunity to take that story, go out and talk to different people in the organization, to be relevant, and have an impact, and make it more easy for you to win that proposal when it gets out. >> Well, really solid story on a super important topic. Thanks Tom, really appreciate your time and taking us through your perspectives. >> Thank you Dave, for the invitation. >> Yeah, you bet. Okay, in a moment we'll be back to summarize our final thoughts, keep it right there. (gentle instrumental music)

>>Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Cube's Live coverage of Cuban here in Motor City, Michigan. My name is Savannah Peterson and I'm delighted to be joined for this segment by my co-host Lisa Martin. Lisa, how you doing? Good. >>We are, we've had such great energy for three days, especially on a Friday. Yeah, that's challenging to do for a tech conference. Go all week, push through the end of day Friday. But we're here, We're excited. We have a great conversation coming up. Absolutely. A little of our alumni is back with us. Love it. We have a great conversation about learning. >>There's been a lot of learning this week, and I cannot wait to hear what these folks have to say. Please welcome Tom and Victoria from Cast by Beam. You guys are swag up very well. You've got the Fanny pack. You've got the vest. You even were nice enough to give me a Carhartt Beanie. Carhartt being a Michigan company, we've had so much love for Detroit and, and locally sourced swag here. I've never seen that before. How has the week been for you? >>The week has been amazing, as you can say by my voice probably. >>So the mic helps. Don't worry. You're good. >>Yeah, so, So we've been talking to tons and tons of people, obviously some vendors, partners of ours. That was great seeing all those people face to face again, because in the past years we haven't really been able to meet up with those people. But then of course, also a lot of end users and most importantly, we've met a lot of people that wanted to learn Kubernetes, that came here to learn Kubernetes, and we've been able to help them. So feel very satisfied about that. >>When we were at VMware explorer, Tom, you were on the program with us, just, I guess that was a couple of months ago. I'm listening track. So many events are coming up. >>Time is a loop. It's >>Okay. It really is. You, you teased some new things coming from a learning perspective. What is going on there? >>All right. So I'm happy that you link back to VMware explorer there because Yeah, I was so excited to talk about it, but I couldn't, and it was frustrating. I knew it was coming up. That was was gonna be awesome. So just before Cuban, we launched Cube Campus, which is the rebrand of learning dot cast io. And Victoria is the great mind behind all of this, but what the gist of it, and then I'll let Victoria talk a little bit. The gist of Cube Campus is this all started as a small webpage in our own domain to bring some hands on lab online and let people use them. But we saw so many people who were interested in those labs that we thought, okay, we have to make this its own community, and this should not be a branded community or a company branded community. >>This needs to be its own thing because people, they like to be in just a community environment without the brand from the company being there. So we made it completely independent. It's a Cube campus, it's still a hundred percent free and it's still the That's right. Only platform where you actually learn Kubernetes with hands on labs. We have 14 labs today. We've been creating one per month and we have a lot of people on there. The most exciting part this week is that we had our first learning day, but before we go there, I suggest we let Victoria talk a little bit about that user experience of Cube Campus. >>Oh, absolutely. So Cube Campus is, and Tom mentioned it's a one year old platform, and we rebranded it specifically to welcome more and, you know, embrace this Kubernetes space total as one year anniversary. We have over 11,000 students and they've been taking labs Wow. Over 7,000. Yes. Labs taken. And per each user, if you actually count approximation, it's over three labs, three point 29. And I believe we're growing as per user if you look at the numbers. So it's a huge success and it's very easy to use overall. If you look at this, it's a number one free Kubernetes learning platform. So for you user journey for your Kubernetes journey, if you start from scratch, don't be afraid. That's we, we got, we got it all. We got you back. >>It's so important and, and I'm sure most of our audience knows this, but the, the number one challenge according to Gartner, according to everyone with Kubernetes, is the complexity. Especially when you're getting harder. I think it's incredibly awesome that you've decided to do this. 11,000 students. I just wanna settle on that. I mean, in your first year is really impressive. How did this become, and I'm sure this was a conversation you two probably had. How did this become a priority for CAST and by Beam? >>I have to go back for that. To the last virtual only Cuban where we were lucky enough to have set up a campaign. It was actually, we had an artist that was doing caricatures in a Zoom room, and it gave us an opportunity to actually talk to people because the challenge back in the days was that everything virtual, it's very hard to talk to people. Every single conversation we had with people asking them, Why are you at cu com virtual was to learn Kubernetes every single conversation. Yeah. And so that was, that is one data point. The other data point is we had one lab to, to use our software, and that was extremely popular. So as a team, we decided we should make more labs and not just about our product, but also about Kubernetes. So that initial page that I talked about that we built, we had three labs at launch. >>One was to learn install Kubernetes. One was to build a first application on Kubernetes, and then a third one was to learn how to back up and restore your application. So there was still a little bit of promoting our technology in there, but pretty soon we decided, okay, this has to become even more. So we added storage, we added security and, and a lot more labs. So today, 14 labs, and we're still adding one every month. The next step for the labs is going to be to involve other partners and have them bring their technologies in the lab. So that's our user base can actually learn more about Kubernetes related technologies and then hopefully with links to open source tools or free software tools. And it's, it's gonna continue to be a, a learning experience for Kubernetes. I >>Love how this seems to be, have been born out of the pandemic in terms of the inability to, to connect with customers, end users, to really understand what their challenges are, how do we help you best? But you saw the demand organically and built this, and then in, in the first year, not only 11,000 as Victoria mentioned, 11,000 users, but you've almost quadrupled the number of labs that you have on the platform in such a short time period. But you did hands on lab here, which I know was a major success. Talk to us about that and what, what surprised you about Yeah, the appetite to learn that's >>Here. Yeah. So actually I'm glad that you relay this back to the pandemic because yes, it was all online because it was still the, the tail end of the pandemic, but then for this event we're like, okay, it's time to do this in person. This is the next step, right? So we organized our first learning day as a co-located event. We were hoping to get 60 people together in a room. We did two labs, a rookie and a pro. So we said two times 30 people. That's our goal because it's really, it's competitive here with the collocated events. It's difficult >>Bringing people lots going on. >>And why don't I, why don't I let Victoria talk about the success of that learning day, because it was big part also her help for that. >>You know, our main goal is to meet expectations and actually see the challenges of our end user. So we actually, it also goes back to what we started doing research. We saw the pain points and yes, it's absolutely reflecting, reflecting on how we deal with this and what we see. And people very appreciative and they love platform because it's not only prerequisites, but also hands on lab practice. So, and it's free again, it's applied, which is great. Yes. So we thought about the user experience, user flow, also based, you know, the product when it's successful and you see the result. And that's where we, can you say the numbers? So our expectation was 60 >>People. You're kinda, you I feel like a suspense is starting killing. How many people came? >>We had over 350 people in our room. Whoa. >>Wow. Wow. >>And small disclaimer, we had a little bit of a technical issue in the beginning because of the success. There was a wireless problem in the hotel amongst others. Oh geez. So we were getting a little bit nervous because we were delayed 20 minutes. Nobody left that, that's, I was standing at the door while people were solving the issues and I was like, Okay, now people are gonna walk out. Right. Nobody left. Kind >>Of gives me >>Ose bump wearing that. We had a little reception afterwards and I talked to people, sorry about the, the disruption that we had under like, no, we, we are so happy that you're doing this. This was such a great experience. Castin also threw party later this week at the party. We had people come up to us like, I was at your learning day and this was so good. Thank you so much for doing this. I'm gonna take the rest of the classes online now. They love it. Really? >>Yeah. We had our instructors leading the program as well, so if they had any questions, it was also address immediately. So it was a, it was amazing event actually. I'm really grateful for people to come actually unappreciated. >>But now your boss knows how you can blow out metrics though. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gonna >>Raise Victoria. >>Very good point. It's a very >>Good point. I can >>Tell. It's, it's actually, it's very tough to, for me personally, to analyze where the success came from. Because first of all, the team did an amazing job at setting the whole thing up. There was food and drinks for everybody, and it was really a very nice location in a hotel nearby. We made it a colocated event and we saw a lot of people register through the Cuban registration website. But we've done colocated events before and you typically see a very high no-show rate. And this was not the case right now. The a lot of, I mean the, the no-show was actually very low. Obviously we did our own campaign to our own database. Right. But it's hard to say like, we have a lot of people all over the world and how many people are actually gonna be in Detroit. Yeah. One element that also helped, I'm actually very proud of that, One of the people on our team, Thomas Keenan, he reached out to the local universities. Yes. And he invited students to come to learning day as well. I don't think it was very full with students. It was a good chunk of them. So there was a lot of people from here, but it was a good mix. And that way, I mean, we're giving back a little bit to the universities versus students. >>Absolutely. Much. >>I need to, >>There's a lot of love for Detroit this week. I'm all about it. >>It's amazing. But, but from a STEM perspective, that's huge. We're reaching down into that community and really giving them the opportunity to >>Learn. Well, and what a gateway for Castin. I mean, I can easily say, I mean, you are the number, we haven't really talked about casting at all, but before we do, what are those pins in front of you? >>So this is a physical pain. These are physical pins that we gave away for different programs. So people who took labs, for example, rookie level, they would get this p it's a rookie. >>Yes. I'm gonna hold this up just so they can do a little close shot on if you want. Yeah. >>And this is PR for, it's a, it's a next level program. So we have a program actually for IS to beginners inter intermediate and then pro. So three, three different levels. And this one is for Helman. It's actually from previous. >>No, Helmsman is someone who has taken the first three labs, right? >>Yes, it is. But we actually had it already before. So this one is, yeah, this one is, So we built two new labs for this event and it was very, very great, you know, to, to have a ready absolutely new before this event. So we launched the whole website, the whole platform with new labs, additional labs, and >>Before an event, honestly. Yeah. >>Yeah. We also had such >>Your expression just said it all. Exactly. >>You're a vacation and your future. I >>Hope so. >>We've had a couple of rough freaks. Yeah. This is part of it. Yeah. So, but about those labs. So in the classroom we had two, right? We had the, the, the rookie and the pro. And like I said, we wanted an audience for both. Most people stayed for both. And there were people at the venue one hour before we started because they did not want to miss it. Right. And what that chose to me is that even though Cuban has been around for a long time, and people have been coming back to this, there is a huge audience that considers themselves still very early on in their Kubernetes journey and wants to take and, and is not too proud to go to a rookie class for Kubernetes. So for us, that was like, okay, we're doing the right thing because yeah, with the website as well, more rookie users will keep, keep coming. And the big goal for us is just to accelerate their Kubernetes journey. Right. There's a lot of platforms out there. One platform I like as well is called the tech world with nana, she has a lot of instructional for >>You. Oh, she's a wonderful YouTuber. >>She, she's, yeah, her following is amazing. But what we add to this is the hands on part. Right? And, and there's a lot of auto resources as well where you have like papers and books and everything. We try to add those as well, but we feel that you can only learn it by doing it. And that is what we offer. >>Absolutely. Totally. Something like >>Kubernetes, and it sounds like you're demystifying it. You talked about one of the biggest things that everyone talks about with respect to Kubernetes adoption and some of the barriers is the complexity. But it sounds to me like at the, we talked about the demand being there for the hands on labs, the the cube campus.io, but also the fact that people were waiting an hour early, they're recognizing it's okay to raise, go. I don't really understand this. Yeah. In fact, another thing that I heard speaking of, of the rookies is that about 60% of the attendees at this year's cube con are Yeah, we heard that >>Out new. >>Yeah. So maybe that's smell a lot of those rookies showed up saying, >>Well, so even >>These guys are gonna help us really demystify and start learning this at a pace that works for me as an individual. >>There's some crazy macro data to support this. Just to echo this. So 85% of enterprise companies are about to start making this transition in leveraging Kubernetes. That means there's only 15% of a very healthy, substantial market that has adopted the technology at scale. You are teaching that group of people. Let's talk about casting a little bit. Number one, Kubernetes backup, 900% growth recently. How, how are we managing that? What's next for you, you guys? >>Yeah, so growth last year was amazing. Yeah. This year we're seeing very good numbers as well. I think part of the explanation is because people are going into production, you cannot sell back up to a company that is not in production with their right. With their applications. Right? So what we are starting to see is people are finally going into production with their Kubernetes applications and are realizing we have to back this up. The other trend that we're seeing is, I think still in LA last year we were having a lot of stateless first estate full conversations. Remember containers were created for stateless applications. That's no longer the case. Absolutely. But now the acceptance is there. We're not having those. Oh. But we're stateless conversations because everybody runs at least a database with some user data or application data, whatever. So all Kubernetes applications need to be backed up. Absolutely. And we're the number one product for that. >>And you guys just had recently had a new release. Yes. Talk to us a little bit about that before we wrap. It's new in the platform and, and also what gives you, what gives cast. And by being that competitive advantage in this new release, >>The competitive advantage is really simple. Our solution was built for Kubernetes. With Kubernetes. There are other products. >>Talk about dog fooding. Yeah. Yeah. >>That's great. Exactly. Yeah. And you know what, one of our successes at the show is also because we're using Kubernetes to build our application. People love to come to our booth to talk to our engineers, who we always bring to the show because they, they have so much experience to share. That also helps us with ems, by the way, to, to, to build those labs, Right? You need to have the, the experience. So the big competitive advantage is really that we're Kubernetes native. And then to talk about 5.5, I was going like, what was the other part of the question? So yeah, we had 5.5 launched also during the show. So it was really a busy week. The big focus for five five was simplicity. To make it even easier to use our product. We really want people to, to find it easy. We, we were using, we were using new helm charts and, and, and things like that. The second part of the launch was to do even more partner integrations. Because if you look at the space, this cloud native space, it's, you can also attest to that with, with Cube campus, when you build an application, you need so many different tools, right? And we are trying to integrate with all of those tools in the most easy and most efficient way so that it becomes easy for our customers to use our technology in their Kubernetes stack. >>I love it. Tom Victoria, one final question for you before we wrap up. You mentioned that you have a fantastic team. I can tell just from the energy you two have. That's probably the truth. You also mentioned that you bring the party everywhere you go. Where are we all going after this? Where's the party tonight? Yeah. >>Well, let's first go to a ballgame tonight. >>The party's on the court. I love it. Go Pistons. >>And, and then we'll end up somewhere downtown in a, in a good club, I guess. >>Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll see how the show down with the hawks goes. I hope you guys make it to the game. Tom Victoria, thank you so much for being here. We're excited about what you're doing. Lisa, always a joy sharing the stage with you. My love. And to all of you who are watching, thank you so much for tuning into the cube. We are wrapping up here with one segment left in Detroit, Michigan. My name's Savannah Peterson. Thanks for being here.

>>Good morning live from Chicago. It's the cube on the floor at Ansible Fast 2022. This is day two of our wall to wall coverage. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. John, we're gonna be talking next in the segment with two alumni about what Red Hat and IBM are doing to give Ansible users AI superpowers. As one of our alumni guests said, just off the keynote stage, we're nearing an inflection point in ai. >>The power of AI with Ansible is really gonna be an innovative, I think an inflection point for a long time because Ansible does such great things. This segment's gonna explore that innovation, bringing AI and making people more productive and more importantly, you know, this whole low code, no code, kind of right in the sweet spot of the skills gap. So should be a great segment. >>Great segment. Please welcome back two of our alumni. Perry is here, the Chief scientist, IBM Research and IBM Fellow. And Tom Anderson joins us once again, VP and general manager at Red Hat. Gentlemen, great to have you on the program. We're gonna have you back. >>Thank you for having >>Us and thanks for joining us. Fresh off the keynote stage. Really enjoyed your keynote this morning. Very exciting news. You have a project called Project Wisdom. We're talking about this inflection point in ai. Tell the audience, the viewers, what is Project Wisdom And Wisdom differs from intelligence. How >>I think Project Wisdom is really about, as I said, sort of combining two major forces that are in many ways disrupting and, and really constructing many a aspects of our society, which are software and AI together. Yeah. And I truly believe it's gonna result in a se shift on how not just enterprises, but society carries forefront. And as I said, intelligence is, is, I would argue at least artificial intelligence is more, in some ways mechanical, if I may say it, it's about algorithms, it's about data, it's about compute. Wisdom is all about what is truly important to bring out. It's not just about when you bring out a, a insight, when you bring out a decision to be able to explain that decision as well. It's almost like humans have wisdom. Machines have intelligence and, and it's about project wisdom. That's why we called it wisdom. >>Because it is about being a, a assistant augmenting humans. Just like be there with the humans and, and almost think of it as behave and interact with them as another colleague will versus intelligence, which is, you know, as I said, more mechanical is about data. Computer algorithms crunch together and, and we wanna bring the power of project wisdom and artificial intelligence to developers to, as you said, close the skills gap to be able to really make them more productive and have wisdom for Ansible be their assistant. Yeah. To be able to get things for them that they would find many ways mundane, many ways hard to find and again, be an assistant and augmented, >>You know, you know what's interesting, I want to get into the origin, how it all happened, but interesting IBM research, well known for the deep tech, big engineering. And you guys have been doing this for a long time, so congratulations. But it's interesting here at this event, even on stage here event, you're starting to see the automation come in. So the question comes up, scale. So what happens, IBM buys Red Hat, you go raid the, the raid, the ip, Trevor Treasure trove of ai. I mean this cuz this is kind of like bringing two killer apps together. The Ansible configuration automation layer with ai just kind of a, >>Yeah, it's an amazing relationship. I was gonna say marriage, but I don't wanna say marriage cause I may be >>Last. I didn't mean say raid the Treasure Trobe, but the kind of >>Like, oh my God. An amazing relationship where we bring all this expertise around automation, obviously around IP and application infrastructure automation and IBM research, Richie and his team bring this amazing capacity and experience around ai. Bring those two things together and applying AI to automation for our teams is so incredibly fantastic. I just can't contain my enthusiasm about it. And you could feel it in the keynote this morning that Richie was doing the energy in the room and when folks saw that, it's just amazing. >>The geeks are gonna love it for sure. But here I wanna get into the whole evolution. Computers on computers, remember the old days thinking machines was a company generations ago that I think they've sold or went outta business, but self-learning, learning machines, computers, programming, computers was actually on your slide you kind of piece out this next wave of AI and machine learning, starting with expert systems really kind of, I'm almost say static, but like okay programs. Yeah, yeah. And then now with machine learning and that big debate was unsupervised, supervised, which is not really perfect. Deep learning, which now explores some things, but now we're at another wave. Take, take us through the thought there explaining what this transition looks like and why. >>I think we are, as I said, we are really at an inflection point in the journey of ai. And if ai, I think it's fair to say data is the pain of ai without data, AI doesn't exist. But if I were to train AI with what is known as supervised learning or or data that is labeled, you are almost sort of limited because there are only so many people who have that expertise. And interestingly, they all have day jobs. So they're not just gonna sit around and label this for you. Some people may be available, but you know, this is not, again, as I as Tom said, we are really trying to apply it to some very sort of key domains which require subject matter expertise. This is not like labeling cats and dogs that everybody else in the board knows there are, the community's very large, but still the skills to go around are not that many. >>And I truly believe to apply AI to the, to the word of, you know, enterprises information technology automation, you have to have unsupervised learning and that's the only way to skate. Yeah. And these two trends really about, you know, information technology percolating across every enterprise and unsupervised learning, which is learning on this very large amount of data with of course know very large compute with some very powerful algorithms like transformer architectures and others which have been disrupting the, the domain of natural language as well are coming together with what I described as foundation models. Yeah. Which anybody who plays with it, you'll be blown away. That's literally blown away. >>And you call that self supervision at scale, which is kind of the foundation. So I have to ask you, cuz this comes up a lot with cloud, cloud scale, everyone tells horizontally scalable cloud, but vertically specialized applications where domain expertise and data plays. So the better the data, the better the self supervision, better the learning. But if it's horizontally scalable is a lot to learn. So how do you create that data ops where it's where the machines are gonna be peaked to maximize what's addressable, but what's also in the domain too, you gotta have that kind of diversity. Can you share your thoughts on that? >>Absolutely. So in, in the domain of foundation models, there are two main stages I would say. One is what I'll describe as pre-training, which is think of it as the, the machine in this particular case is knowledgeable about the domain of code in general. It knows syntax of Python, Java script know, go see Java and so, so on actually, and, and also Yammel as well, which is obviously one would argue is the domain of information technology. And once you get to that level, it's a, it's almost like having a developer who knows all of this but may not be an expert at Ansible just yet. He or she can be an expert at Ansible but is not there yet. That's what I'll call background knowledge. And also in the, in the case of foundation models, they are very adept at natural language as well. So they can connect natural language to code, but they are not yet expert at the domain of Ansible. >>Now there's something called, the second stage of learning is called fine tuning, which is about this data ops where I take data, which is sort of the SME data in this particular case. And it's curated. So this is not just generic data, you pick off GitHub, you don't know what exists out there. This is the data which is governed, which we know is of high quality as well. And you think of it as you specialize the generic AI with pre-trained AI with that data. And those two stages, including the governance of that data that goes into it results in this sort of really breakthrough technology that we've been calling Project Wisdom for. Our first application is Ansible, but just watch out that area. There are many more to come and, and we are gonna really, I'm really excited about this partnership with Red Hat because across IBM and research, I think where wherever we, if there is one place where we can find excited, open source, open developer community, it is Right. That's, >>Yeah. >>Tom, talk about the, the role of open source and Project Wisdom, the involvement of the community and maybe Richard, any feedback that you've gotten since coming off stage? I'm sure you were mobbed. >>Yeah, so for us this is, it's called Project Wisdom, not Product Wisdom. Right? Sorry. Right. And so, no, you didn't say that but I wanna just emphasize that it is a project and for us that is a key word in the upstream community that this is where we're inviting the community to jump on board with us and bring their expertise. All these people that are here will start to participate. They're excited in it. They'll bring their expertise and experience and that fine tuning of the model will just get better and better. So we're really excited about introducing this now and involving the community because it's super nuts. Everything that Red Hat does is around the community and this is no different. And so we're really excited about Project Wisdom. >>That's interesting. The project piece because if you see in today's world the innovation strategy before where we are now, go back to say 15 years ago it was of standard, it's gotta have standard bodies. You can still innovate and differentiate, but yet with open source and community, it's a blending of research and practitioners. I think that to me is a big story here is that what you guys are demonstrating is the combination of research and practitioners in the project. Yes. So how does this play out? Cuz this is kind of like how things are gonna get done in the cloud cuz Amazon's not gonna just standardize their stack at at higher level services, nor is Azure and they might get some plumbing commonalities below, but for Project Project Wisdom to be successful, they can, it doesn't need to have standards. If I get this right, if I can my on point here, what do you guys think about that? React to that? Yeah, >>So I definitely, I think standardization in terms of what we will call ML ops pipeline for models to be deployed and managed and operated. It's like models, like any other code, there's standardization on DevOps ops pipeline, there's standardization on machine learning pipeline. And these models will be deployed in the cloud because they need to scale. The only way to scale to, you know, thousands of users is through cloud. And there is, there are standard pipelines that we are working and architecting together with the Red Hat community leveraging open source packages. Yeah. Is really to, to help scale out the AI models of wisdom together. And another point I wanted to pick up on just what Tom said, I've been sort of in the area of productizing AI for for long now having experience with Watson as well. The only scenario where I've seen AI being successful is in this scenario where, what I describe as it meets the criteria of flywheel of ai. >>What do I mean by flywheel of ai? It cannot be some research people build a model. It may be wowing, but you roll it out and there's no feedback. Yeah, exactly. Okay. We are duh. So what actually, the only way the more people use these models, the more they give you feedback, the better it gets because it knows what is right and what is not right. It will never be right the first time. Actually, you know, the data it is trained on is a depiction of reality. Yeah. It is not a reality in itself. Yeah. The reality is a constantly moving target and the only way to make AI successful is to close that loop with the community. And that's why I just wanted to reemphasize the point on why community is that important >>Actually. And what's interesting Tom is this is a difference between standards bodies, old school and communities. Because developers are very efficient in their feedback. Yes. They jump to patterns that serve their needs, whether it's self-service or whatever. You can kind of see what's going on. Yeah. It's either working or not. Yeah, yeah, >>Yeah. We get immediate feedback from the community and we know real fast when something isn't working, when something is working, there are no problems with the flow of data between the members of the community and, and the developers themselves. So yeah, it's, I'm it's great. It's gonna be fantastic. The energy around Project Wisdom already. I bet. We're gonna go down to the Project Wisdom session, the breakout session, and I bet you the room will be overflowed. >>How do people get involved real quick? Get, get a take a minute to explain how I would get involved. I'm a community member. Yep. I'm watching this video, I'm intrigued. This has got me enthusiastic. How do I get more confident with this opportunity? >>So you go to, first of all, you go to red hat.com/project Wisdom and you register your interests and you wanna participate. We're gonna start growing this process, bringing people in, getting ready to make the service available to people to start using and to experiment with. Start getting their feedback. So this is the beginning of, of a journey. This isn't the, you know, this isn't the midpoint of a journey, this is the begin. You know, even though the work has been going on for a year, this is the beginning of the community journey now. And so we're gonna start working together through channels like Discord and whatnot to be able to exchange information and bring people in. >>What are some of the key use cases, maybe Richie are starting with you that, that you think maybe dream use cases that you think the community will help to really uncover as we're looking at Project Wisdom really helping in this transformation of ai. >>So if I focus on let's say Ansible itself, there are much wider use cases, but Ansible itself and you know, I, I would say I had not realized, I've been working on AI for Good for long, but I had not realized the excitement and the power of Ansible community itself. It's very large, it's very bottom sum, which I love actually. But as I went to lot of like CTOs and CIOs of lot of our customers as well, it was becoming clear the use cases of, you know, I've got thousand Ansible developers or IT or automation experts. They write code all the time. I don't know what all of this code is about. So the, the system administrators, managers, they're trying to figure out sort of how to organize all of this together and think of it as Google for finding all of these automation code automation content. >>And I'm very excited about not just the use cases that we demonstrated today, that is beginning of the journey, but to be able to help enterprises in finding the right code through natural language interfaces, generating the code, helping Del us debug their code as well. Giving them predictive insights into this may happen. Just watch out for it when you deploy this. Something like that happened before, just watch out for it as well. So I'm, I'm excited about the entire life cycle of IT automation, Not just about at the build time, but also at the time of deployment. At the time of management. This is just a start of a journey, but there are many exciting use cases abound for Ansible and beyond. >>It's gonna be great to watch this as it unfolds. Obviously just announcing this today. We thank you both so much for joining us on the program, talking about Project wisdom and, and sharing how the community can get involved. So you're gonna have to come back next year. We're gonna have to talk about what's going on. Cause I imagine with the excitement of the community and the volume of the community, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Absolutely. >>This is absolutely exactly. You're excited about. >>Excellent. And you should be. Congratulations. Thank, thanks again for joining us. We really appreciate your insights. Thank you. Thank >>You for having >>Us. For our guests and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Barton and you're watching The Cube Lie from Chicago at Ansible Fest 22. This is day two of wall to wall coverage on the cube. Stick around. Our next guest joins us in just a minute.

>>Good morning, everyone from Chicago Live. The Cube is live at Ansible Fast 2022. Lisa Martin and John Ferer are here for two days of multiple coverage on the cube. Very excited to be back in person. Ansible's 10th anniversary, the first in-person event. John, since 2019. Yeah, great to be perfect. One of the nuggets dropped this morning and I know you was Opss code. >>Yeah, we're gonna hear about that OPSIS code here in this segment. We're gonna get in, but the leader of the, the business unit at Ansible, part of Red Hat. So look forward >>To this. Exactly. Tom Anderson joins us, one of our alumni. Welcome back to the program. Thank you. The VP and general manager of Red Hat. First of all, how great is it to be back in person with live guests and an engaged audience and then robust community? >>It is amazing. It really is. I kind of question whether this day was ever gonna come again after three years of being apart, but to see the crowd here and to see, like you said, the energy in the room this morning and the keynotes, it's fantastic. So it's fa I just couldn't be happier. >>So opsis code nugget drop this morning. Yep. We wanna dissect that with you as, as that was mentioned in the keynote this morning. As Ansible is pushing into the cloud and and into the edge, what does OPSIS code mean for end users and how is it gonna help them to use a term that was used a lot in the keynote level up their automation? >>Yeah, so what we see is, look, the day zero, day one provisioning of infrastructure. There's lots of tools, there's lots of ways to do that. Again, it's just the company's ambition and dedication to doing it. The tools are there, they can do that. We see the next big opportunity for automation is in day two operations. And what's happening right now in ops is that you have multiple clouds, you've got multiple data centers and now you've got edge environments. The number of things to manage on a day-to-day basis is only increasing. The complexity is only increasing this idea of a couple years ago where we're gonna do shift everything left onto the developer. It's nice idea, but you still have to operate these environments on a day two basis. So we see this opportunity as opsis code, just like we did infrastructures code, just like we did configuration as code. We see the next frontier as operations code. >>Yeah, and this is really a big trend as you know with cube reporting a lot on the cloud native velocity of the modern application developer these days, they're under, they're, it's a great time to be a software developer because all the open source goodness is happening, but they're going faster. They want self-service, they want it built in secure, They need guardrails, they need, they need faster ops. So that seems to be the pressure point. Is ops as code going to be that solution? Because you have a lot of people talking about multi-cloud, multiple environments, which sounds great on paper, but when you try to execute it, Yeah, there's complexity. So you know, the goal of complexity management has really been one of the key things around ops. How do I keep speed up and how do I reduce the complexities? These are big. How does, how does ops code fit into that? >>Yeah, so look, we, we see Ansible as this common automation back plane, if you will, that goes across all of these environments. It provides a common abstraction layer so that whether you're running on Azure, whether you're a GCP or whether you're AWS or whether you're, you know, a PLC out on a shop industrial edge floor with a plc, each of those things need to be automated. If we can abstract that into a common automation language, then that allows these domain experts to be able to offer their services to developers in a way that promotes the acceleration, if you will, of those developers tasks. And that developer doesn't have to know about the underlying complexities of storage or database or cloud or edge. They can just do their >>Job. You know, Tom, one of the things I observed in Keynote, and it comes across every time I, we have an event and in person it's more amplified. Cause you see it, the loyalty of the customer base. You have great community. It's very not corporate like here. It's very no big flashy news. But there's some news, hard news, It's very community driven. Check the box there. So continuing on the roots, I wanna get your thoughts on how now the modern era we're in, in this world, the purchasing power, again, I mentioned multicloud looks good on paper, which every CX I wanna be multiple clouds. I want choice now. Now you talk to the people running things like, whoa, hold on, boss. Yeah, the bottoms up is big part of the selection process of how people select and buying consume technology with open source, you don't need to like do a full buy. You can use open source and then get Ansible. Yeah. This is gonna be a big part of how the future of buying product is and implementing it. So I think it's gonna be a groundswell, bottoms up market in this new cloud native with O in the ops world. What's your reaction to that? What's your thoughts? >>So here, here's my thoughts. The bulk of the people here are practitioners. They love Ansible, they use Ansible in their day to day job. It's how it helped, makes 'em successful. Almost every executive that I go out and talk to and our customers, they tell me one of their number one pro or their number one problem is attracting you talent and retaining the talent that they have. And so how can they do that? They can give them the tools to do their job, the tools that they actually like. So not a top down, you know, old fashioned systems management. You're gonna use this tool whether you like it or not. But that bottoms up swell of people adopting open source tools like Ansible to do their job and enjoy it. So I see it as a way of the bottoms up addressing the top down initiative of the organization, which is skills retention, skills enhancement. And that's what we focus on here at this event. Are the practitioners, >>Is that the biggest customer conversation topic these days? Is this the skills gap, retention, attraction talent? Would you say it's more expansive as the organizations are so different? >>Well, so a lot of the folks that I meet are, you know, maybe not sea level, but they're executives in the organization, right? So they're struggling with attract, you know, pretty much everywhere I go, I was in Europe this summer, conversation was always the same. We got two problems. Tracking people. We can't find people, people we find we can't afford. So we need to automate what they would do. And, and then the second piece is the complexity of our environment is growing, right? I'm being asked to do more and I can't find more people to do it. What's my solution? It's automation, you know, at the end of the day, that's what it comes down to. >>It's interesting, the people who are gonna be involved in the scaling horizontally with automation are gonna have the keys to the kingdom. The old joke when it was, you know, they run everything. They power the business now the business is digital. You gotta be hybrid. So we see hybrids a steady state right now, hybrid cloud. When you bring the edge into the equation, how do you see that developing? Because we think it's gonna be continually be hybrid and that's gonna extend out on the edge. What is the ansible's view on how the edge evolves? What's, what's going on there? Can you share your thoughts on the expansion to the edge? >>There's a, our experience is there's a rapid modernization happening out at the edge, industrial edge, you know, oil and gas platforms, retail locations, industrial floors, all that kind of stuff. We see this convergence of OT and IT happening right now where some of the disciplines that enterprises have used in the IT area are gonna expand out into ot. But some of the requirements of ot of not having skilled IT resources, you know, in the store, in the fast food restaurant, on the oil platform, needing to have the tools to be able to automate those changes remotely. We're seeing a real acceleration of that right now. And frankly, Ansible's playing a big role in that. And it's connecting a lot of the connective tissue is around network. What is the key piece that connects all of this environment as network and those number of endpoints that need to be managed. Ansible is, you know, >>It's way use case for Ansible because Ansible built their business on configuration automation, which was don't send someone out to that branch office back in the old days. Exactly. Do it. Manual versus automation. Hey, automation every time. Yes. This is at large scale. I mean the scale magnitude, can you scope the scale of what's different? I mean go even go back 10 years, okay, where we were and how we got here, where we are today. Scope the size of the scale that's happening here. >>You know, hundreds of thousands of endpoints and things. That's not even the API points, but that's the kind of compute points, the network points, the servers it's in. It's, it's, you know what we would've never thought, you know, 10 years ago, a thousand endpoints was a lot or 10,000 endpoints was a lot of things to manage when you start talking about network devices. Yeah, yeah. Home network devices for employees that are remote employees that need to be in a secured network. Just the order of magnitude, maybe two orders of magnitude larger than it has been in the past. And so again, coming home to the automation world, >>The world's spun in your front, your front door right now. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, >>Absolutely. Talk about, you talked about the acceleration. If we think of about the proliferation of, of devices online, especially the last two years, when, to your point, so many people shifted to remote and are still there. What are some of the, the changes in automation that we've seen as businesses have had to pivot and change so frequently and so many times to be successful? >>Yeah, so here's what we've seen, which is it's no longer acceptable for the owner of the network team or the ownership of the database or of the storage facility to, you can't wait for them to offer their service to people. Self-service is now the rule of thumb, right? So how can those infrastructure owners be able to offer their services to non IT people in a way that manages their compliance and makes them feel that they can get those resources without having to come and ask. And they do that by automating with Ansible and then offering those as package services out to their developers, to their QE teams, to their end users, to be able to consume and subscribe to that infrastructure knowing that they are the ones who are controlling how it's being provisioned, how it's being used. >>What are some of the, there were some great customers mentioned this morning in the keynote, but do you have a favorite example of a customer, regardless of industry that you think really shows the value and, and the evolution of the Ansible platform in its first 10 years and that really articulates the business value that automation delivers to a company? >>Yeah, no, it's a great question. I would think that, you know, if you wound the clock back 10 years, Ansible was all about server configuration management, right? That's what it was about was per provisioning, provisioning, you know, VMware infrastructure, vSphere, and then loading on VMs on top of that as it's expanded into network, into security and to storage and to database into cloud. It's become a much broader platform, if you will. And a good example is we have a customer, large oil and gas customer who is modernizing their oil platforms. I can imagine I not, I've not been on one, but I imagine the people that are out working on that oil platforms have greasy hands that are pushing on things. And they had this platform that the technology modernization included Azure. So connecting to data on Azure, rolling out new application updates, has to have a firewall, has to have network capabilities, has to have underlying OS to be able to do that. And Ansible was the glue that brought all that together to be able to modernize that oil platform. And so for me, that's the kind of thing where it sort of makes it real. You know, the actual businesses, >>The common set of services, this is, this is where we're seeing multi-cloud. Yeah. You start to have that conversation where, okay, I got this edge, it kind of looks the same, I gotta make it work. I'm a developer, I want some compute, I want to put this together. I have containers and orchestration behind it and kind of seeing the same kind of pattern. Yeah. Evolving at scale. So you guys have the platform, okay, I'm an open source. I love the open source. I got the platform 2.3, I see supply chain management in there. You got trusted signatures. That's a supply chain. We've been hearing a lot about security in the code. What else is in the platform that's updated? Can you share the, the, the new things that people should pay attention to in the platform? >>Yeah, we're gonna talk about a couple of things smaller around event driven Ansible, which is bringing Ansible into that really day two ops world where it's sort of hands free automation and, and, and operations where rather than someone pushing a button to trigger or initiate a piece of, of automation, an event will take place. I've detected an outta space condition, I've detected a security violation, I've detected something. Go to a rule book. That rule book will kick off in automation close that remediate that problem and close the thing without anyone ever having to do anything with that. So that's kind of one big area. And we're gonna talk tomorrow. We've got a real special announcement tomorrow with our friends from IBM research that I'm gonna, >>We'll have you on 10 30 Martha Calendars. >>But there's some really great stuff going on on the platform as we start to expand these use cases in multiple directions and how we take Ansible out to more and more people, automation out to more and more people from the inside, experts out to the consumers of automation, make it easier to create automation. >>Yeah. And one of the things I wanted to follow up on that and the skill gap, tying that together is you seeing heard in the keynote today around Stephanie was talking about enterprise architecture. It's not, I won't say corner case answer. I mean it's not one niche or narrow focus. Expanding the scope was mentioned by Katie, expand your scope grow, you got a lot of openings. People are hire now, Now Ansible is part of the enterprise architecture. It's not just one thing, it's, it's a complete, Explain what that means for the folks out there. Yeah. >>So when you start to connect what I call the technology domains, so the network team uses Ansible to automate their network infrastructure and configure all their systems. And the compute team uses it to deploy new servers on aws. And the security ops team use it to go out and gather facts when they have a threat detection happening and the storage team is using it to provision storage. When you start to then say, Okay, we have all these different domains and we want to connect those together into a set of workflows that goes across all of those domains. You have this common language and we're saying, okay, so it's not just the language, it's also the underlying platform that has to be scalable. It's gotta be secure. We talked about signing content. I mean, people don't understand the risk of an automation gone wild. You can, you can do a lot of damage to your infrastructure real fast with automation, just like you can do repair, right? So is what's running in my environment secure? Is it performant and is it scalable? I mean, those are the two, those are the three areas that we're really looking at with the platform right >>Now. Automation gone wild, it sounds like the next reality TV show. Yeah, I >>May, I may regret saying that. >>Sounds >>Like great. Especially on live tv. Great, >>Great podcast title right there. I made a mental note. Automation Gone Wild episode one. Here we are >>Talk about Ansible as is really being the, the catalyst to allow organizations to truly democratize automation. Okay. You, you talked about the different domains there and it seems to me like it's, it's positioned to really be the catalyst that's the driver of that democratization, which is where a lot of people wanna get to. >>Yeah. I mean for us, and you'll see in our sessions at Ansible Fest, we talk a lot about the culture, the culture of automation, right? And saying, okay, how do you include more and more people in your organization in this process? How can you get them to participate? So we talk about these ideas of communities of practice. So we bring the open source, the concepts of open source communities down into enterprises to build their own internal communities of practice around Ansible, where they're sharing best practices, skills, reusable content. That is one of the kind of key factors that we see as a success in inside organizations is the scales, is sort of bringing everybody into that culture of automation and not being afraid of automation saying, Look, it's not gonna take my job, it's gonna help me do my job better. >>Exactly. That automation argument always went, went to me crazy. Oh yeah, automating is gonna take my job away. You know, bank teller example, there's more bank tellers now than ever before. More atm. So the, the job shifts, I mean the value shifts. Yeah. This is kind of where the, where the automation helps. What's real quick, final minute we have left. Where does that value shift? I'm the person being automated away or job. Yeah. Where do you see the value job? Cause it's still tons of openings for people's skills, >>You know? So we see the shift from, particularly in operations from, here's my job, I look at a ticket queue, I grab a ticket, it's got a problem, I go look at a log, I look for a string and a log, I find out the air and I go, configuration change that. That's not a really, I wouldn't call that a fund existence for eight or 10 hours a day, but the idea, if I can use automation to do that for me and then focus on innovating, creating new capabilities in my environment, then you start to attract a new, you know, the next generation of operations people into a much more exciting role. >>Yeah. Architects too, they turned into architects that turned into the multiple jobs scope. It's like multi-tool player. It's like >>A, you know, Yeah, yeah. The five tool player, >>Five tool player in baseball is the best of the best. But, but kind of that's what's >>Happening. That's exactly what's happening, right? That's exactly what's happening. And it helps address that skills challenge. Yeah. And the talent challenge that organizations have as well. >>And everybody wants to be able to focus on delivering value to the organization. I have to get the end of the day. That's a human component that we all want. So it sounds like Ansible is well on its way to helping more and more organizations across industries achieve just that. Tom, it's great to have you back on the program. Sounds like you're coming back tomorrow, so we get day two of Tom. All right, excellent. Look forward to it. Congratulations on the first in-person event in three years and we look forward to talking to you >>Tomorrow. Thank you so much. >>All right, for our guests and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cube Live from Chicago, Day one of our coverage of Ansible Fest 2022. Stick around. John and I welcome back another Cube alumni next.

>>As we said in our analysis of Dell's future, the transformation of Dell into Dell emc and now Dell Technologies has been one of the most remarkable stories in the history of the technology industry. After years of successfully integrated EMC and becoming VMware's number one distribution channel, the metamorphosis of Dell com culminated in the spin out of VMware from Dell and a massive wealth creation milestone pending, of course the Broadcom acquisition of VMware. So where's that leave Dell and what does the future look like for this technology powerhouse? Hello and welcome to the Cube's exclusive coverage of Dell Technology Summit 2022. My name is Dave Ante and I'll be hosting the program today in conjunction with the Dell Tech Summit. We'll hear from four of Dell senior executives. Tom Sweet is the CFO of Dell. Technologies's gonna share his views of the company's position and opportunities and answer the question, why is Dell good long term investment? >>Then we'll hear from Jeff Boudreau, who's the president of Dell's ISG business unit, who's gonna talk about the product angle and specifically how Dell is thinking about solving the multi-cloud challenge. And then Sam GrowCo is the senior vice President of marketing. He's gonna come in the program and give us the update on Apex, which is Dell's as a service offering and a new edge platform called Project Frontier. By the way, it's also Cybersecurity Awareness Month, and we're gonna see if Sam has any stories there. And finally, for a company that's nearly 40 years old, Dell has some pretty forward thinking philosophies when it comes to its culture and workforce. And we're gonna speak with Jen Savira, who's Dell's chief Human Resource officer about hybrid work and how Dell is thinking about the future of work. We're gonna geek out all day and talk multi-cloud and edge and latency, but first, let's talk wallet. Tom Sweet cfo, and one of Dell's key business architects. Welcome back to the >>David, It's good to see you and good to be back with you. So thanks for having me. >>Yeah, you bet. So Tom, it's been a pretty incredible past 18 months. Not only the pandemic and all that craziness, but the VMware spin, you had to give up your gross margin. Pinky as kidding. And, and of course the macro environment. I'm so sick of talking about the macro, but putting that aside for a moment, what's really remarkable is that for a company at your size, you've had some success at the top line, which I think surprised a lot of people. What are your reflections on the last 18 to 24 months? >>Well, Dave, it's been an incredible, not only last 18 months, but the whole transformation journey. If you think all the way back maybe to the LBO and forward from there, but, you know, stepping into the last 18 months, it's, you know, I, I think I remember talking with you and saying, Hey, you know, the scenario planning we did at the beginning of this pandemic journey was, you know, 30 different scenarios roughly, and none of which sort of panned out the way it actually did, which was a pretty incredible growth story as we think about how we helped customers, you know, drive workforce productivity, enable their business model during the all remote work environment. That was the pandemic created. And couple that with the, you know, the, the rise then in the infrastructure spin as we got towards the tail end of the, of the pandemic coupled with, you know, the spin out of VMware, which culminated last November, as you know, as we completed that, which unlocked a pathway back to investment grade within unlocked, quite frankly, shareholder value, capital allocation frameworks. It's really been a remarkable, you know, 18, 24 months. It's, it's never dull at Dell Technologies, Let me put it that way. >>Well, well, I was impressed with you, Tom, before the leverage buyout and then what I've seen you guys navigate through is, is, is truly amazing. Well, let's talk about the challenging macro. I mean, I've been through a lot of downturns, but I've never seen anything quite like this with fed tightening and you're combating inflation, you got this recession looming, there's a bear market you got, but you got zero unemployment, you're rising wages, strong dollar, and it's very confusing. But it spending is, you know, it's somewhat softer, but it's still not bad. How are you seeing customers behave? How is Dell responding? >>Yeah, look, if you think about the markets we play in Dave, and we should start there as a grounding, you know, the, the total market, the core market that we think about is roughly 700 and, you know, $50 billion or so. If you think about our core IT services capability, you couple that with some of the, the growth initiatives that we're driving and the adjacent markets that that, that brings in, you're roughly talking a 1.4 to $1.5 trillion market opportunity, total addressable market. And so from, from that perspective, we're extraordinarily bullish on where are we in the journey as we continue to grow and expand. You know, we have, we're number one share in just about every category that we plan, but yet when you look at that, you know, number one share in some of these, you know, our highest share position may be, you know, low thirties and maybe in the high end of storage you're at the upper end of thirties or 40%. >>But the opportunity there to continue to expand the core and, and continue to take share and outperform the market is truly extraordinary. So, so you step back and think about that, then you say, okay, what have we seen over the last number of months and quarters? It's been, you know, really great performance through the pandemic as, as you highlighted, we actually had a really strong first half of the year of our fiscal year 23 with revenue up 12% operating income up 12% for the first half. You know, what we talked about as you, if you might recall in our second quarter earnings, was the fact that we were starting to see softness. We had seen it in the consumer PC space, which is not a big area of focus for us in the sense of our, our total revenue stream, But we started to see commercial PC soften and we were starting to see server demand soften a bit and storage demand was, was holding quite frankly. >>And so we gave a a framework around guidance for the rest of the year as a result of what we were seeing. You know, the macro environment as you highlight it continues to be challenging. You know, you, if you look at inflation rates and the efforts by central banks across the globe to with through interest rate rise to press down and, and constrain growth and push down inflation, you couple that with supply chain challenges that continue principle, particularly in the ISG space. And then you couple that with the Ukraine war and the energy crisis that that's created. And particularly in Europe, it's a pretty dynamic environment. And, but I'm confident, you know, I'm confident in the long term, but I do think that there is, you know, that there's navigation that we're going to have to do over the coming number of quarters, who knows quite how long, you know, to, to make sure the business is properly positioned and, you know, we've got a great portfolio and you're gonna talk to some of the team LA later on as you think your way through some of the solution capabilities we're driving what we're seeing around technology trends. >>So the opportunities there, there's some short term navigation that we're gonna need to do just to make sure that we address some of the, you know, some of the environmental things that we're seeing right >>Now. Yeah. And as a global company, of course you're converting current local currencies back to appreciated dollars. That's, that's, that's another headwind. But as you say, I mean, that's math and you're navigating it. And again, I've seen a lot of downturns, but you know, the best companies not only weather the storm, but they invest in ways they that allow them to cut out, come out the other side stronger. So I wanna talk about that longer term opportunity, the relationship between the core, the the business growth. You mentioned the tam, I mean, even, even as a lower margin business, if, if you can penetrate that big of a tam, you could still throw off a lot of cash and you've got other levers to turn in potentially acquisitions and software. And, but so ultimately what gives you confidence in Dell's future? How should we think about Dell's future? >>Yeah, look, I, I think it comes down to we are extraordinarily excited about the opportunity over the long term digital transformation continues. I I, I am on numerous customer and CIO calls every week. Customers are continuing to invest in digital transformation in infrastructure to enable their business model. Yes, maybe it's gonna slow or, or pause or maybe they're not gonna invest quite at the same rate over the next number of quarters, but over the long term the needs are there. You look at what we're doing around the, the growth opportunities that we see, not only in our core space where we continue to invest, but also in the, what we call the strategic adjacencies. Things like 5G and modern telecom infrastructure as our, the telecom providers across the globe open up their, what a cl previous been closed ecosystems, you know, to open architecture. You think about, you know, what we're doing around the edge and the distribution now that we're seeing of compute and storage back to the edge given data gravity and latency matters. >>And so we're pretty bullish on the opportunity in front of us, you know, yes, we will, We're continuing to invest. And you Jeff Boudreau talk about that I think later on in the program. So I'm excited about the opportunities and you look at our cash flow generation capability, you know, we are in, in, in normal times a, a cash flow generation machine and we'll continue to do so. You know, we've got a negative, you know, CCC in terms of, you know, how do we think about efficiency of working capital? And we look at our, you know, our capital allocation strategy, which has now returned, you know, somewhere in near 60% of our free cash flow back to shareholders. And so, you know, there's lots to, lots of reasons to think about why this, you know, we are a great sort of, I think, value creation opportunity in a over the long term that the long term trends are with us, and I expect them to continue to be so, >>Yeah, and you guys, you, you, you do what you say you're gonna do. I mean, I said in my, in my other piece that I did recently, I think you guys put 46 billion on the, on the, on the balance sheet in terms of debt. That's down to I think 16 billion in the core, which that's quite remarking. That gives you some other opportunities. Give us your, your closing thoughts. I mean, you kind of just addressed why Dell is a good long term play, but I'll give you an opportunity to bring us home. >>Hey, Dave. Yeah, look, I, I just think if you look at the gr the market opportunity, the size and scale of Dell and how we think about the competitive advantages that we have, we com you know, if you look at, say we're a hundred billion revenue company, which we were a year, you know, last year, that as we reported roughly 60, 65 billion of that in the client and in PC space, roughly, you know, 35 to 40 billion in the ISG or infrastructure space, those markets are gonna continue the opportunity to grow, share, grow at a premium to the market, drive, cash flow, drive, share, gain is clearly there. You couple that with, you know, what we think the opportunity is in these adjacent markets, whether it's telecom, the edge, what we're thinking around data services, data management, you know, we, and you cut, you put that together with the long term trends around, you know, data creation and digital transformation. We are extraordinarily well positioned. We have the largest direct selling organization in, in the technology space. We have the largest supply chain, our services footprint, you know, well positioned in my mind to take advantage of the opportunities as we move forward. >>Well, Tom, really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us. Good to see you again. >>Nice seeing you. Thanks Dave. >>All right. You're watching the Cube's exclusive behind the scenes coverage of Dell Technology Summit 2022. In a moment, I'll be back with Jeff Boudreau. He's the president of Dell's ISG Infrastructure Solutions Group. He's responsible for all the important enterprise business at Dell and we're excited to get his thoughts, keep it right there.

(upbeat music) >> As we said in our analysis of Dell's future, the transformation of Dell into Dell EMC and now Dell Technologies has been one of the most remarkable stories in the history of the technology industry. After years of successfully integrated EMC and becoming VMware's number one distribution channel, the metamorphosis of Dell culminated in the spin out of VMware from Dell and a massive wealth creation milestone pending of course the Broadcom acquisition of VMware. So where's that leave Dell and what does the future look like for this technology powerhouse? Hello, and welcome to theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Dell Technologies Summit 2022. My name is Dave Vellante and I'll be hosting the program. Today, in conjunction with the Dell Tech Summit, we'll hear from four of Dell senior executives. Tom Sweet is the CFO of Dell Technologies. He's going to share his views of the company's position and opportunities and answer the question why is Dell a good long term investment? Then we'll hear from Jeff Boudreau, who's the president of Dell's ISG business unit. He's going to talk about the product angle and specifically how Dell is thinking about solving the multi-cloud challenge. And then Sam Groccot is the senior vice President of marketing. He's going to come in the program and give us the update on Apex, which is Dell's as-a-service offering. And a new edge platform called Project Frontier. By the way, it's also Cybersecurity Awareness Month and we're going to see if Sam has any stories there. And finally, for a company that's nearly 40 years old, Dell has some pretty forward thinking philosophies when it comes to its culture and workforce. And we're going to speak with Jen Saavedra who's Dell's Chief Human Resource officer about hybrid work and how Dell is thinking about the future of work. We're going to geek out all day and talk multi-cloud and Edge and latency, but first, let's talk wallet. Tom Sweet, CFO, and one of Dell's key business architects. Welcome back to "theCUBE." >> Dave, it's good to see you and good to be back with you, so thanks for having me today. >> Yeah, you bet. Tom, it's been a pretty incredible past 18 months. Not only the pandemic and all that craziness, but the VMware spin. You had to give up your gross margin pinky, just kidding, and of course the macro environment. I'm so sick of talking about the macro. But putting that aside for a moment what's really remarkable is that for a company of your size, you've had some success at the top line which I think surprised a lot of people. What are your reflections on the last 18 to 24 months? >> Well Dave, it's been an incredible, not only last 18 months, but the whole transformation journey if you think all the way back maybe to the LBO and forward from there. But stepping into the last 18 months, it's, I think I remember talking with you and saying, "Hey, the scenario planning we did at the beginning of this pandemic journey was 30 different scenarios roughly, and none of which sort of panned out the way it actually did," which was a pretty incredible growth story. As we think about how we helped customers, drive workforce productivity, enable their business model during the all remote work environment that was the pandemic created. And couple that with the rise then and the infrastructure spin as we got towards the tail end of the pandemic coupled with the spin out of VMware, which culminated last November as we completed that, which unlocked a pathway back to investment grade, which then unlocked, quite frankly shareholder value, capital allocation frameworks. It's really been a remarkable 18, 24 months. It's, it's never dull at Dell Technologies. Let me put it that way. >> Well, I was impressed with you Tom before the leverage buyout and then what I've seen you guys navigate through is truly amazing. Well, let's talk about the challenging macro. I mean, I've been through a lot of downturns but I've never seen anything quite like this with Fed tightening, and you're combating inflation, you got this recession looming. There's a bear market. You got, but you got zero unemployment, you're rising wages, strong dollar, and it's very confusing. But IT spending is, it's somewhat softer, but it's still not bad. How are you seeing customers behave? How is Dell responding? >> Yeah look, if you think about the markets we play in Dave, we should start there as a grounding. The total market, the core market that we think about is roughly $750 billion or so, if you think about our core IT services capability. If you couple that with some of the growth initiatives that we're driving and the adjacent markets that that that brings in, you're roughly talking a 1.4 to $1.5 trillion market opportunity total addressable market. And so from that perspective we're extraordinarily bullish on where are we in the journey as we continue to grow and expand. We have, we're number one share in just about every category that we plan, but yet when you look at that, number one share in some of these, our highest share position may be low 30s and maybe in the high end of storage or at the upper end of 30s or 40%. But the opportunity there to continue to expand the core and continue to take share and outperform the market is truly extraordinary. So if you step back and think about that, then you say, okay, what have we seen over the last number of months and quarters? It's been really great performance through the pandemic as you highlighted. We actually had a really strong first half of the year of our fiscal year '23 with revenue up 12% operating income, up 12% for the first half. What we talked about if you might recall in our second quarter earnings was the fact that we were starting to see softness. We had seen it in the consumer PC space, which is not a big area of focus for us in the sense of our total revenue stream. But we started to see commercial PC soften and we were starting to see server demand soften a bit and storage demand was holding quite frankly. And so we gave a framework around guidance for the rest of the year as a result of what we were seeing. The macro environment as you highlighted continues to be challenging. If you look at inflation rates and the efforts by central banks across the globe through interest rate rise to press down and constrain growth and push down inflation, you couple that with supply chain challenges that continue particularly in the ISG space. And then you couple that with the Ukraine war and the energy crisis that that's created. And particularly in Europe, it's a pretty dynamic environment. But I'm confident, I'm confident in the long term. But I do think that there is, there's navigation that we're going to have to do over the coming number of quarters. Who knows quite how long. To make sure the business is properly positioned and we've got a great portfolio and you're going to talk to some of the team later on as you think your way through some of the solution capabilities we're driving, what we're seeing around technology trends. So the opportunity is there. There's some short term navigation that we're going to need to do just to make sure that we address some of the environmental things that we're seeing right now. >> Yeah, and as a global company of course you're converting local currencies back to appreciated dollars. That's another headwind. But as you say, I mean, that's math and you're navigating it. And again, I've seen a lot of downturns, but the best companies not only weather their storm, but they invest in ways they that allow them to come out the other side stronger. So I want to talk about that longer term opportunity the relationship between the core, the the business growth. You mentioned the TAM. I mean, even as a lower margin business, if you can penetrate that big of a TAM, you could still throw off a lot of cash and you've got other levers to turn in potentially acquisitions and software. But so ultimately what gives you confidence in Dell's future? How should we think about Dell's future? >> Yeah look, I think it comes down to we are extraordinarily excited about the opportunity over the long term. Digital transformation continues. I am on numerous customer and CIO conference calls every week. Customers are continuing to invest in digital transformation, in infrastructure, to enable their business model. Yes, maybe it's going to slow or pause, or maybe they're not going to invest quite at the same rate over the next number of quarters but over the long term the needs are there. You look at what we're doing around the growth opportunities that we see, not only in our core space where we continue to invest, but also in the, what we call the strategic adjacencies. Things like 5G and modern telecom infrastructure as our, the telecom providers across the globe open up their what previous been closed ecosystems to open architecture. You think about, what we're doing around the EDGE and the distribution now that we're seeing of compute and storage back to the edge given data, gravity, and latency matters. And so we're pretty bullish on the opportunity in front of us. Yes, we will, and we're continuing to invest. And you hear Jeff Boudreau talk about that I think later on in the program. So I'm excited about the opportunities and you look at our cash flow generation capability, we are in in normal times a cash flow generation machine and we'll continue to do so. We've got a negative CCC in terms of how do we think about efficiency of working capital? And we look at our capital allocation strategy which has now returned somewhere in near 60% of our free cash flow back to shareholders. And so, there's lots to, lots of reasons to think about why this, we are a great sort of, I think value creation opportunity in a over the long term. That the long term trends are with us and I expect them to continue to be so. >> Yeah, and you guys, you do what you say you're going to do. I mean, I said in my other piece that I did recently, I think you guys put $46 billion on the balance sheet in terms of debt. That's down to I think 16 billion in the core which that's quite remarking. That gives you some other opportunities. Give us your closing thoughts. I mean, you kind of just addressed why Dell is a good long term play, but I'll give you an opportunity to bring us home. >> Hey Dave, yeah look, I just think if you look at the grid, the market opportunity, the size and scale of Dell and how we think about the competitive advantages that we have, we can, if you look at say we're a hundred billion dollar revenue company which we were last year as we reported. Roughly 60, 65 billion of that in the client in PC space, roughly 35 to 40 billion in the ISG or infrastructure space. Those markets are going to continue. The opportunity to grow share, grow at a premium to the market, drive cash flow, drive share gain is clearly there. And couple that with what we think the opportunity is in these adjacent markets, whether it's telecom, the EDGE, what we're thinking around data services, data management, we, and you put that together with the long term trends around data creation and digital transformation. We are extraordinarily well positioned. We have the largest direct selling organization in the technology space. We have the largest supply chain. Our services footprint. Well positioned in my mind to take advantage of the opportunities as we move forward. >> Well Tom I really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us. Good to see you again. >> Nice seeing you. Thanks Dave. >> All right, you're watching theCUBE's exclusive behind the scenes coverage of Dell Technology Summit 2022. In a moment, I'll be back with Jeff Boudreau. He's the president of Dell's ISG Infrastructure Solutions Group. He's responsible for all the important enterprise business at Dell, and we're excited to get his thoughts. Keep it right there. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> As we said in our analysis of Dell's future, the transformation of Dell into Dell EMC and now Dell Technologies has been one of the most remarkable stories in the history of the technology industry. After years of successfully integrated EMC and becoming VMware's number one distribution channel, the metamorphosis of Dell culminated in the spin out of VMware from Dell and a massive wealth creation milestone pending of course the Broadcom acquisition of VMware. So, where's that leave Dell and what does the future look like for this technology powerhouse? Hello and welcome to the Cube's exclusive coverage of Dell Technologies Summit 2022. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'll be hosting the program. Today in conjunction with the Dell Tech Summit. We'll hear from four of Dell senior executives. Tom Sweet is the CFO of Dell Technologies. He's going to share his views of the company's position and opportunities and answer the question, why is Dell a good long term investment? Then we'll hear from Jeff Boudreau, who's the president of Dell's ISG business unit, who's going to talk about the product angle and specifically how Dell is thinking about solving the multi-cloud challenge. And then Sam Grocott is the Senior Vice President of Marketing is going to come in the program and give us the update on APEX which is Dell's as-a-service offering and a new edge platform called Project Frontier. By the way, it's also Cybersecurity Awareness Month, and we're going to see if Sam has any stories there. And finally, for a company that's nearly 40 years old, Dell has some pretty forward thinking philosophies when it comes to its culture and workforce. And we're going to speak with Jen Saavedra, who's Dell's chief Human Resource officer about hybrid work and how Dell is thinking about the future of work. We're going to geek out all day and talk multi-cloud and edge and latency, but first, let's talk wallet. Tom Sweet CFO, and one of Dell's key business architects. Welcome back to The Cube. >> Dave, it's good to see you and good to be back with you. So, thanks for having me today. >> Yeah, you bet. Tom, it's been a pretty incredible past 18 months. Not only the pandemic and all that craziness but the VMware spin. You had to give up your gross margin binky just kidding, and of course the macro environment. I'm so sick of talking about the macro but putting that aside for a moment, what's really remarkable is that for a company at your size you've had some success at the top line which I think surprised a lot of people. What are your reflections on the last 18 to 24 months? >> Well, Dave, it's been an incredible, not only last 18 months but the whole transformation journey. If you think all the way back maybe to the LBO and forward from there, but, you know stepping into the last 18 months, it's, you know, I think I remember talking with you and saying, Hey you know, the scenario planning we did at the beginning of this pandemic journey was, you know 30 different scenarios roughly, and none of which sort of panned out the way it actually did which was a pretty incredible growth story as we think about how we helped customers, you know drive workforce productivity, enable their business model during the all remote work environment, that was the pandemic created. And couple that with the, you know, the rise then in the infrastructure spin as we got towards the tail end of the, of the pandemic coupled with, you know, the spin out of VMware, which culminated last November, as you know as we completed that, which unlocked a pathway back to investment grade, we still unlocked, quite frankly shareholder value, capital allocation frameworks. It's really been a remarkable, you know, 18, 24 months. It's never dull at Dell Technologies Let me put it that way. >> Well, well, I was impressed with you, Tom before the leverage buyout and then what I've seen you guys navigate through is truly amazing. Well, let's talk about the challenging macro. I mean, I've been through a lot of downturns, but I've never seen anything quite like this with fed tightening and you combating inflation, you got this recession looming, there's a bear market you got but you got zero unemployment you're rising wages, strong dollar, and it's very confusing. But IT spending is, you know, it's somewhat softer, but it's still not bad. How are you seeing customers behave? How is Dell responding? >> Yeah, look, if you think about the markets we play in Dave and we should start there as a grounding, you know, the total market, the core market that we think about is roughly 700 and, you know, $50 billion or so if you think about our core IT services capability. You couple that with some of the growth initiatives that we're driving and the adjacent markets that that brings in, you're roughly talking a 1.4 to $1.5 trillion market opportunity total addressable market. And so from, from that perspective we're extraordinarily bullish on where are we in the journey as we continue to grow and expand. You know, we have, we're number one share in just about every category that we plan but yet when you look at that, you know number one share in some of these, you know our highest share position may be, you know low 30s and maybe in the high end of storage you're at the upper end of 30 or 40%. But the opportunity there to continue to expand the core and continue to take share and outperform the market is truly extraordinary. So, if you step back and think about that, then you say, okay, what have we seen over the last number of months and quarters? It's been, you know, really great performance through the pandemic as, as you highlighted. We actually had a really strong first half of the year of our fiscal year 23 with revenue up 12% operating income up 12% for the first half. You know, what we talked about is you, if you might recall in our second quarter earnings was the fact that we were starting to see softness. We had seen it in the consumer PC space which is not a big area of focus for us in the sense of our, our total revenue stream. But we started to see commercial PC soften, and we were starting to see server demand soften a bit and storage demand was, was holding quite frankly. And so, we gave a a framework around guidance for the rest of the year as a result of what we were seeing. You know, the macro environment as you highlight it continues to be challenging. You know, if you look at inflation rates and the efforts by central banks across the globe to with through interest rate rise to press down and and constrain growth and push down inflation, you couple that with supply chain challenges that continue particularly in the ISG space. And then you couple that with the Ukraine war and the energy crisis that that's created. And particularly in Europe it's a pretty dynamic environment. And, but I'm confident, you know, I'm confident in the long term, but I do think that there is, you know that there's navigation that we're going to have to do over the coming number of quarters who knows quite how long, you know, to make sure the business is properly positioned then. You know we've got a great portfolio and you're going to talk to some of the team later on as you think your way through some of the solution capabilities we're driving what we're seeing around technology trends. So the opportunities there, there's some short term navigation that we're going to need to do just to make sure that we address some of the, you know, some of the environmental things that we're seeing right now. >> Yeah and as a global company, of course you're converting local currencies back to appreciated dollars. That's, that's, that's another headwind. But as you say, I mean that's math and you're navigating it. And again, I've seen a lot of downturns, but you know the best companies not only weather their storm, but they invest in ways they that allow them to cut out come out the other side stronger. So, I want to talk about that longer term opportunity, the relationship between the core, the business growth. You mentioned the TAM, I mean, even as a lower margin business, if you can penetrate that big of a TAM, you could still throw off a lot of cash and you've got other levers to turn in potentially acquisitions and software but so ultimately what gives you confidence in Dell's future? How should we think about Dell's future? >> Yeah, look, I think it comes down to, we are extraordinarily excited about the opportunity over the long term, digital transformation continues. I am on numerous customer and CIO conference calls every week. Customers are continuing to invest in digital transformation in infrastructure to enable their business model. Yes, maybe it's going to slow or, or pause or maybe they're not going to invest quite at the same rate over the next number of quarters but over the long term the needs are there. You look at what we're doing around the growth opportunities that we see, not only in our core space where we continue to invest but also in the, what we call the strategic adjacencies. Things like 5G and modern telecom infrastructure as our the telecom providers across the globe open up their what previous been closed ecosystems, you know to open architecture. You think about, you know, what we're doing around the edge and the distribution now that we're seeing of compute and storage back to the edge given data gravity and latency matters. And so we're pretty bullish on the opportunity in front of us. You know, yes, we will, we're continuing to invest. And you'll hear Jeff Boudreau talk about that I think later on in the program. So, I'm excited about the opportunities and you look at our cash flow generation capability, you know, we are in normal times a cash flow generation machine and we'll continue to do so. You know, we've got a negative, you know CCC in terms of, you know how do we think about efficiency of working capital? And we look at our, you know our capital allocation strategy which has now returned, you know, somewhere in near 60% of our free cash flow back to shareholders. And so, you know, there's lots to, lots of reasons to think about why this, you know, we are a great sort of, I think value creation opportunity in a over the long term that the long term trends are with us and I expect them to continue to be so. >> Yeah, and you guys, you do what you say you're going to do. I mean, I said in my, in my other piece that I did recently, I think you guys put 46 billion dollars on the balance sheet in terms of debt. That's down to I think 16 billion in the core which that's quite remarking. That gives you some other opportunities. Give us your, your closing thoughts. I mean, you kind of just addressed why Dell is a good long term play but I'll give you an opportunity to bring us home. >> Hey, Dave yeah look, I just think if you look at the grin, the market opportunity the size and scale of Dell and how we think about the competitive advantages that we have, we come you know, if you look at, say we're a hundred billion dollar revenue company which we were year, you know, last year that as we reported, roughly 60, 65 billion of that in the client in PC space, roughly, you know, 35 to 40 billion in the ISG or infrastructure space, those markets are going to continue. The opportunity to grow share, grow at a premium to the market, drive cash flow, drive share gain is clearly there. You couple that with, you know what we think the opportunity is in these adjacent markets, whether it's telecom, the edge, what we're thinking around data services, data management you know, we, and you've cut, you put that together with the long term trends around, you know data creation and digital transformation. We are extraordinarily well positioned. We have the largest direct selling organization in the technology space. We have the largest supply chain, our services footprint you know, well positioned in my mind to take advantage of the opportunities as we move forward. >> Well, Tom really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us. Good to see you again. >> Nice seeing you. Thanks Dave. >> All right. You're watching The Cube's exclusive behind the scenes coverage of Dell Technology Summit 2022. In a moment, I'll be back with Jeff Boudreau. He's the president of Dell's ISG Infrastructure Solutions Group. He's responsible for all the important enterprise business at Dell and we're excited to get his thoughts. Keep it right there. (upbeat jingle)

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone and welcome back to The Cube. We are covering VMware Explore live in San Francisco. This is our third day of wall to wall coverage. And John Furrier is here with me, Lisa Martin. We are excited to welcome two guests from Kasten by Veeam, please welcome Tom Laden, VP of marketing and Matt LeBlanc, not Joey from friends, Matt LeBlanc, the systems engineer from North America at Kasten by Veeam. Welcome guys, great to have you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for having us. >> Tom-- >> Great, go ahead. >> Oh, I was going to say, Tom, talk to us about some of the key challenges customers are coming to you with. >> Key challenges that they have at this point is getting up to speed with Kubernetes. So everybody has it on their list. We want to do Kubernetes, but where are they going to start? Back when VMware came on the market, I was switching from Windows to Mac and I needed to run a Windows application on my Mac and someone told me, "Run a VM." Went to the internet, I downloaded it. And in a half hour I was done. That's not how it works with Kubernetes. So that's a bit of a challenge. >> I mean, Kubernetes, Lisa, remember the early days of The Cube Open Stack was kind of transitioning, Cloud was booming and then Kubernetes was the paper that became the thing that pulled everybody together. It's now de facto in my mind. So that's clear, but there's a lot of different versions of it and you hear VMware, they call it the dial tone. Usually, remember, Pat Gelter, it's a dial tone. Turns out that came from Kit Colbert or no, I think AJ kind of coined the term here, but it's since been there, it's been adopted by everyone. There's different versions. It's open source. AWS is involved. How do you guys look at the relationship with Kubernetes here and VMware Explore with Kubernetes and the customers because they have choices. They can go do it on their own. They can add a little bit with Lambda, Serverless. They can do more here. It's not easy. It's not as easy as people think it is. And then this is a skill gaps problem too. We're seeing a lot of these problems out there. What's your take? >> I'll let Matt talk to that. But what I want to say first is this is also the power of the cloud native ecosystem. The days are gone where companies were selecting one enterprise application and they were building their stack with that. Today they're building applications using dozens, if not hundreds of different components from different vendors or open source platforms. And that is really what creates opportunities for those cloud native developers. So maybe you want to... >> Yeah, we're seeing a lot of hybrid solutions out there. So it's not just choosing one vendor, AKS, EKS, or Tanzu. We're seeing all the above. I had a call this morning with a large healthcare provider and they have a hundred clusters and that's spread across AKS, EKS and GKE. So it is covering everything. Plus the need to have a on-prem solution manage it all. >> I got a stat, I got to share that I want to get your reactions and you can laugh or comment, whatever you want to say. Talk to big CSO, CXO, executive, big company, I won't say the name. We got a thousand developers, a hundred of them have heard of Kubernetes, okay. 10 have touched it and used it and one's good at it. And so his point is that there's a lot of Kubernetes need that people are getting aware. So it shows that there's more and more adoption around. You see a lot of managed services out there. So it's clear it's happening and I'm over exaggerating the ratio probably. But the point is the numbers kind of make sense as a thousand developers. You start to see people getting adoption to it. They're aware of the value, but being good at it is what we're hearing is one of those things. Can you guys share your reaction to that? Is that, I mean, it's hyperbole at some level, but it does point to the fact of adoption trends. You got to get good at it, you got to know how to use it. >> It's very accurate, actually. It's what we're seeing in the market. We've been doing some research of our own, and we have some interesting numbers that we're going to be sharing soon. Analysts don't have a whole lot of numbers these days. So where we're trying to run our own surveys to get a grasp of the market. One simple survey or research element that I've done myself is I used Google trends. And in Google trends, if you go back to 2004 and you compare VMware against Kubernetes, you get a very interesting graph. What you're going to see is that VMware, the adoption curve is practically complete and Kubernetes is clearly taking off. And the volume of searches for Kubernetes today is almost as big as VMware. So that's a big sign that this is starting to happen. But in this process, we have to get those companies to have all of their engineers to be up to speed on Kubernetes. And that's one of the community efforts that we're helping with. We built a website called learning.kasten.io We're going to rebrand it soon at CubeCon, so stay tuned, but we're offering hands on labs there for people to actually come learn Kubernetes with us. Because for us, the faster the adoption goes, the better for our business. >> I was just going to ask you about the learning. So there's a big focus here on educating customers to help dial down the complexity and really get them, these numbers up as John was mentioning. >> And we're really breaking it down to the very beginning. So at this point we have almost 10 labs as we call them up and they start really from install a Kubernetes Cluster and people really hands on are going to install a Kubernetes Cluster. They learn to build an application. They learn obviously to back up the application in the safest way. And then there is how to tune storage, how to implement security, and we're really building it up so that people can step by step in a hands on way learn Kubernetes. >> It's interesting, this VMware Explore, their first new name change, but VMWorld prior, big community, a lot of customers, loyal customers, but they're classic and they're foundational in enterprises and let's face it. Some of 'em aren't going to rip out VMware anytime soon because the workloads are running on it. So in Broadcom we'll have some good action to maybe increase prices or whatnot. So we'll see how that goes. But the personas here are definitely going cloud native. They did with Tanzu, was a great thing. Some stuff was coming off, the fruit's coming off the tree now, you're starting to see it. CNCF has been on this for a long, long time, CubeCon's coming up in Detroit. And so that's just always been great, 'cause you had the day zero event and you got all kinds of community activity, tons of developer action. So here they're talking, let's connect to the developer. There the developers are at CubeCon. So the personas are kind of connecting or overlapping. I'd love to get your thoughts, Matt on? >> So from the personnel that we're talking to, there really is a split between the traditional IT ops and a lot of the people that are here today at VMWare Explore, but we're also talking with the SREs and the dev ops folks. What really needs to happen is we need to get a little bit more experience, some more training and we need to get these two groups to really start to coordinate and work together 'cause you're basically moving from that traditional on-prem environment to a lot of these traditional workloads and the only way to get that experience is to get your hands dirty. >> Right. >> So how would you describe the persona specifically here versus say CubeCon? IT ops? >> Very, very different, well-- >> They still go ahead. Explain. >> Well, I mean, from this perspective, this is all about VMware and everything that they have to offer. So we're dealing with a lot of administrators from that regard. On the Kubernetes side, we have site reliability engineers and their goal is exactly as their title describes. They want to architect arch applications that are very resilient and reliable and it is a different way of working. >> I was on a Twitter spaces about SREs and dev ops and there was people saying their title's called dev ops. Like, no, no, you do dev ops, you don't really, you're not the dev ops person-- >> Right, right. >> But they become the dev ops person because you're the developer running operations. So it's been weird how dev ops been co-opted as a position. >> And that is really interesting. One person told me earlier when I started Kasten, we have this new persona. It's the dev ops person. That is the person that we're going after. But then talking to a few other people who were like, "They're not falling from space." It's people who used to do other jobs who now have a more dev ops approach to what they're doing. It's not a new-- >> And then the SRE conversation was in site, reliable engineer comes from Google, from one person managing multiple clusters to how that's evolved into being the dev ops. So it's been interesting and this is really the growth of scale, the 10X developer going to more of the cloud native, which is okay, you got to run ops and make the developer go faster. If you look at the stuff we've been covering on The Cube, the trends have been cloud native developers, which I call dev ops like developers. They want to go faster. They want self-service and they don't want to slow down. They don't want to deal with BS, which is go checking security code, wait for the ops team to do something. So data and security seem to be the new ops. Not so much IT ops 'cause that's now cloud. So how do you guys see that in, because Kubernetes is rationalizing this, certainly on the compute side, not so much on storage yet but it seems to be making things better in that grinding area between dev and these complicated ops areas like security data, where it's constantly changing. What do you think about that? >> Well there are still a lot of specialty folks in that area in regards to security operations. The whole idea is be able to script and automate as much as possible and not have to create a ticket to request a VM to be billed or an operating system or an application deployed. They're really empowered to automatically deploy those applications and keep them up. >> And that was the old dev ops role or person. That was what dev ops was called. So again, that is standard. I think at CubeCon, that is something that's expected. >> Yes. >> You would agree with that. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So now translating VM World, VMware Explore to CubeCon, what do you guys see as happening between now and then? Obviously got re:Invent right at the end in that first week of December coming. So that's going to be two major shows coming in now back to back that're going to be super interesting for this ecosystem. >> Quite frankly, if you compare the persona, maybe you have to step away from comparing the personas, but really compare the conversations that we're having. The conversations that you're having at a CubeCon are really deep dives. We will have people coming into our booth and taking 45 minutes, one hour of the time of the people who are supposed to do 10 minute demos because they're asking more and more questions 'cause they want to know every little detail, how things work. The conversations here are more like, why should I learn Kubernetes? Why should I start using Kubernetes? So it's really early day. Now, I'm not saying that in a bad way. This is really exciting 'cause when you hear CNCF say that 97% of enterprises are using Kubernetes, that's obviously that small part of their world. Those are their members. We now want to see that grow to the entire ecosystem, the larger ecosystem. >> Well, it's actually a great thing, actually. It's not a bad thing, but I will counter that by saying I am hearing the conversation here, you guys'll like this on the Veeam side, the other side of the Veeam, there's deep dives on ransomware and air gap and configuration errors on backup and recovery and it's all about Veeam on the other side. Those are the guys here talking deep dive on, making sure that they don't get screwed up on ransomware, not Kubernete, but they're going to Kub, but they're now leaning into Kubernetes. They're crossing into the new era because that's the apps'll end up writing the code for that. >> So the funny part is all of those concepts, ransomware and recovery, they're all, there are similar concepts in the world of Kubernetes and both on the Veeam side as well as the Kasten side, we are supporting a lot of those air gap solutions and providing a ransomware recovery solution and from a air gap perspective, there are a many use cases where you do need to live. It's not just the government entity, but we have customers that are cruise lines in Europe, for example, and they're disconnected. So they need to live in that disconnected world or military as well. >> Well, let's talk about the adoption of customers. I mean this is the customer side. What's accelerating their, what's the conversation with the customer at base, not just here but in the industry with Kubernetes, how would you guys categorize that? And how does that get accelerated? What's the customer situation? >> A big drive to Kubernetes is really about the automation, self-service and reliability. We're seeing the drive to and reduction of resources, being able to do more with less, right? This is ongoing the way it's always been. But I was talking to a large university in Western Canada and they're a huge Veeam customer worth 7000 VMs and three months ago, they said, "Over the next few years, we plan on moving all those workloads to Kubernetes." And the reason for it is really to reduce their workload, both from administration side, cost perspective as well as on-prem resources as well. So there's a lot of good business reasons to do that in addition to the technical reliability concerns. >> So what is those specific reasons? This is where now you start to see the rubber hit the road on acceleration. >> So I would say scale and flexibility that ecosystem, that opportunity to choose any application from that or any tool from that cloud native ecosystem is a big driver. I wanted to add to the adoption. Another area where I see a lot of interest is everything AI, machine learning. One example is also a customer coming from Veeam. We're seeing a lot of that and that's a great thing. It's an AI company that is doing software for automated driving. They decided that VMs alone were not going to be good enough for all of their workloads. And then for select workloads, the more scalable one where scalability was more of a topic, would move to Kubernetes. I think at this point they have like 20% of their workloads on Kubernetes and they're not planning to do away with VMs. VMs are always going to be there just like mainframes still exist. >> Yeah, oh yeah. They're accelerating actually. >> We're projecting over the next few years that we're going to go to a 50/50 and eventually lean towards more Kubernetes than VMs, but it was going to be a mix. >> Do you have a favorite customer example, Tom, that you think really articulates the value of what Kubernetes can deliver to customers where you guys are really coming in and help to demystify it? >> I would think SuperStereo is a really great example and you know the details about it. >> I love the SuperStereo story. They were a AWS customer and they're running OpenShift version three and they need to move to OpenShift version four. There is no upgrade in place. You have to migrate all your apps. Now SuperStereo is a large French IT firm. They have over 700 developers in their environment and it was by their estimation that this was going to take a few months to get that migration done. We're able to go in there and help them with the automation of that migration and Kasten was able to help them architect that migration and we did it in the course of a weekend with two people. >> A weekend? >> A weekend. >> That's a hackathon. I mean, that's not real come on. >> Compared to thousands of man hours and a few months not to mention since they were able to retire that old OpenShift cluster, the OpenShift three, they were able to stop paying Jeff Bezos for a couple of those months, which is tens of thousands of dollars per month. >> Don't tell anyone, keep that down low. You're going to get shot when you leave this place. No, seriously. This is why I think the multi-cloud hybrid is interesting because these kinds of examples are going to be more than less coming down the road. You're going to see, you're going to hear more of these stories than not hear them because what containerization now Kubernetes doing, what Dockers doing now and the role of containers not being such a land grab is allowing Kubernetes to be more versatile in its approach. So I got to ask you, you can almost apply that concept to agility, to other scenarios like spanning data across clouds. >> Yes, and that is what we're seeing. So the call I had this morning with a large insurance provider, you may have that insurance provider, healthcare provider, they're across three of the major hyperscalers clouds and they do that for reliability. Last year, AWS went down, I think three times in Q4 and to have a plan of being able to recover somewhere else, you can actually plan your, it's DR, it's a planned migration. You can do that in a few hours. >> It's interesting, just the sidebar here for a second. We had a couple chats earlier today. We had the influences on and all the super cloud conversations and trying to get more data to share with the audience across multiple areas. One of them was Amazon and that super, the hyper clouds like Amazon, as your Google and the rest are out there, Oracle, IBM and everyone else. There's almost a consensus that maybe there's time for some peace amongst the cloud vendors. Like, "Hey, you've already won." (Tom laughs) Everyone's won, now let's just like, we know where everyone is. Let's go peace time and everyone, then 'cause the relationship's not going to change between public cloud and the new world. So there's a consensus, like what does peace look like? I mean, first of all, the pie's getting bigger. You're seeing ecosystems forming around all the big new areas and that's good thing. That's the tides rise and the pie's getting bigger, there's bigger market out there now so people can share and share. >> I've never worked for any of these big players. So I would have to agree with you, but peace would not drive innovation. And in my heart is with tech innovation. I love it when vendors come up with new solutions that will make things better for customers and if that means that we're moving from on-prem to cloud and back to on-prem, I'm fine with that. >> What excites me is really having the flexibility of being able to choose any provider you want because you do have open standards, being cloud native in the world of Kubernetes. I've recently discovered that the Canadian federal government had mandated to their financial institutions that, "Yes, you may have started all of your on cloud presence in Azure, you need to have an option to be elsewhere." So it's not like-- >> Well, the sovereign cloud is one of those big initiatives, but also going back to Java, we heard another guest earlier, we were thinking about Java, right once ran anywhere, right? So you can't do that today in a cloud, but now with containers-- >> You can. >> Again, this is, again, this is the point that's happening. Explain. >> So when you have, Kubernetes is a strict standard and all of the applications are written to that. So whether you are deploying MongoDB or Postgres or Cassandra or any of the other cloud native apps, you can deploy them pretty much the same, whether they're in AKS, EKS or on Tanzu and it makes it much easier. The world became just a lot less for proprietary. >> So that's the story that everybody wants to hear. How does that happen in a way that is, doesn't stall the innovation and the developer growth 'cause the developers are driving a lot of change. I mean, for all the talk in the industry, the developers are doing pretty good right now. They've got a lot of open source, plentiful, open source growing like crazy. You got shifting left in the CICD pipeline. You got tools coming out with Kubernetes. Infrastructure has code is almost a 100% reality right now. So there's a lot of good things going on for developers. That's not an issue. The issue is just underneath. >> It's a skillset and that is really one of the biggest challenges I see in our deployments is a lack of experience. And it's not everyone. There are some folks that have been playing around for the last couple of years with it and they do have that experience, but there are many people that are still young at this. >> Okay, let's do, as we wrap up, let's do a lead into CubeCon, it's coming up and obviously re:Invent's right behind it. Lisa, we're going to have a lot of pre CubeCon interviews. We'll interview all the committee chairs, program chairs. We'll get the scoop on that, we do that every year. But while we got you guys here, let's do a little pre-pre-preview of CubeCon. What can we expect? What do you guys think is going to happen this year? What does CubeCon look? You guys our big sponsor of CubeCon. You guys do a great job there. Thanks for doing that. The community really recognizes that. But as Kubernetes comes in now for this year, you're looking at probably the what third year now that I would say Kubernetes has been on the front burner, where do you see it on the hockey stick growth? Have we kicked the curve yet? What's going to be the level of intensity for Kubernetes this year? How's that going to impact CubeCon in a way that people may or may not think it will? >> So I think first of all, CubeCon is going to be back at the level where it was before the pandemic, because the show, as many other shows, has been suffering from, I mean, virtual events are not like the in-person events. CubeCon LA was super exciting for all the vendors last year, but the attendees were not really there yet. Valencia was a huge bump already and I think Detroit, it's a very exciting city I heard. So it's going to be a blast and it's going to be a huge attendance, that's what I'm expecting. Second I can, so this is going to be my third personally, in-person CubeCon, comparing how vendors evolved between the previous two. There's going to be a lot of interesting stories from vendors, a lot of new innovation coming onto the market. And I think the conversations that we're going to be having will yet, again, be much more about live applications and people using Kubernetes in production rather than those at the first in-person CubeCon for me in LA where it was a lot about learning still, we're going to continue to help people learn 'cause it's really important for us but the exciting part about CubeCon is you're talking to people who are using Kubernetes in production and that's really cool. >> And users contributing projects too. >> Also. >> I mean Lyft is a poster child there and you've got a lot more. Of course you got the stealth recruiting going on there, Apple, all the big guys are there. They have a booth and no one's attending you like, "Oh come on." Matt, what's your take on CubeCon? Going in, what do you see? And obviously a lot of dynamic new projects. >> I'm going to see much, much deeper tech conversations. As experience increases, the more you learn, the more you realize you have to learn more. >> And the sharing's going to increase too. >> And the sharing, yeah. So I see a lot of deep conversations. It's no longer the, "Why do I need Kubernetes?" It's more, "How do I architect this for my solution or for my environment?" And yeah, I think there's a lot more depth involved and the size of CubeCon is going to be much larger than we've seen in the past. >> And to finish off what I think from the vendor's point of view, what we're going to see is a lot of applications that will be a lot more enterprise-ready because that is the part that was missing so far. It was a lot about the what's new and enabling Kubernetes. But now that adoption is going up, a lot of features for different components still need to be added to have them enterprise-ready. >> And what can the audience expect from you guys at CubeCon? Any teasers you can give us from a marketing perspective? >> Yes. We have a rebranding sitting ready for learning website. It's going to be bigger and better. So we're not no longer going to call it, learning.kasten.io but I'll be happy to come back with you guys and present a new name at CubeCon. >> All right. >> All right. That sounds like a deal. Guys, thank you so much for joining John and me breaking down all things Kubernetes, talking about customer adoption, the challenges, but also what you're doing to demystify it. We appreciate your insights and your time. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you very much. >> Our pleasure. >> Thanks Matt. >> For our guests and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching The Cube's live coverage of VMware Explore 2022. Thanks for joining us. Stay safe. (gentle music)

(bright music) >> Welcome back everyone. theCube's live coverage here. Day two, of two sets, three days of theCube coverage here at VMware Explore. This is our 12th year covering VMware's annual conference, formerly called VM World. I'm John Furrier, with Dave Vellante. We'd love seeing the progress and we've got great security comes Tom Gill, senior vices, president general manager, networking and advanced security business group at VMware. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks. for having me. >> Yeah, really happy we could have you on. >> I think this is my sixth edition on the theCube. Do I get frequent flyer points or anything? >> Yeah. >> You first get the VIP badge. We'll make that happen. You can start getting credits. >> Okay, there we go. >> We won't interrupt you. Seriously, you got a great story in security here. The security story is kind of embedded everywhere, so it's not called out and blown up and talked specifically about on stage. It's kind of in all the narratives in the VM World for this year. But you guys have an amazing security story. So let's just step back and to set context. Tell us the security story for what's going on here at VMware and what that means to this supercloud, multi-cloud and ongoing innovation with VMware. >> Yeah, sure thing. So probably the first thing I'll point out is that security's not just built in at VMware. It's built differently. So, we're not just taking existing security controls and cut and pasting them into our software. But we can do things because of our platform, because of the virtualization layer that you really can't do with other security tools. And where we're very, very focused is what we call lateral security or East-West movement of an attacker. 'Cause frankly, that's the name of the game these days. Attackers, you've got to assume that they're already in your network. Already assume that they're there. Then how do we make it hard for them to get to the stuff that you really want? Which is the data that they're going after. And that's where we really should. >> All right. So we've been talking a lot, coming into VMware Explore, and here, the event. About two things. Security, as a state. >> Yeah. >> I'm secure right now. >> Yeah. >> Or I think I'm secure right now, even though someone might be in my network or in my environment. To the notion of being defensible. >> Yeah. >> Meaning I have to defend and be ready at a moment's notice to attack, fight, push back, red team, blue team. Whatever you're going to call it. But something's happening. I got to be able to defend. >> Yeah. So what you're talking about is the principle of Zero Trust. When I first started doing security, the model was we have a perimeter. And everything on one side of the perimeter is dirty, ugly, old internet. And everything on this side, known good, trusted. What could possibly go wrong. And I think we've seen that no matter how good you make that perimeter, bad guys find a way in. So Zero Trust says, you know what? Let's just assume they're already in. Let's assume they're there. How do we make it hard for them to move around within the infrastructure and get to the really valuable assets? 'Cause for example, if they bust into your laptop, you click on a link and they get code running on your machine. They might find some interesting things on your machine. But they're not going to find 250 million credit cards. >> Right. >> Or the script of a new movie or the super secret aircraft plans. That lives in a database somewhere. And so it's that movement from your laptop to that database. That's where the damage is done and that's where VMware shines. >> So if they don't have the right to get to that database, they're not in. >> And it's not even just the right. So they're so clever and so sneaky that they'll steal a credential off your machine, go to another machine, steal a credential off of that. So, it's like they have the key to unlock each one of these doors. And we've gotten good enough where we can look at that lateral movement, even though it has a credential and a key, we're like wait a minute. That's not a real CIS Admin making a change. That's ransomware. And that's where you. >> You have to earn your way in. >> That's right. That's right. Yeah. >> And we're all kinds of configuration errors. But also some user problems. I've heard one story where there's so many passwords and username and passwords and systems that the bad guys scour, the dark web for passwords that have been exposed. >> Correct. >> And go test them against different accounts. Oh one hit over here. >> Correct. >> And people don't change their passwords all the time. >> Correct. >> That's a known vector. >> Just the idea that users are going to be perfect and never make a mistake. How long have we been doing this? Humans are the weakest link. So people are going to make mistakes. Attackers are going to be in. Here's another way of thinking about it. Remember log4j? Remember that whole fiasco? Remember that was at Christmas time. That was nine months ago. And whoever came up with that vulnerability, they basically had a skeleton key that could access every network on the planet. I don't know if a single customer that said, "Oh yeah, I wasn't impacted by log4j." So here's some organized entity had access to every network on the planet. What was the big breach? What was that movie script that got stolen? So there wasn't one, right? We haven't heard anything. So the point is, the goal of attackers is to get in and stay in. Imagine someone breaks into your house, steals your laptop and runs. That's a breach. Imagine someone breaks into your house and stays for nine months. It's untenable, in the real world, right? >> Right. >> We don't know in there, hiding in the closet. >> They're still in. >> They're watching everything. >> Hiding in your closet, exactly. >> Moving around, nibbling on your cookies. >> Drinking your beer. >> Yeah. >> So let's talk about how this translates into the new reality of cloud-native. Because now you hear about automated pentesting is a new hot thing right now. You got antivirus on data is hot within APIs, for instance. >> Yeah. >> API security. So all kinds of new hot areas. Cloud-native is very iterative. You know, you can't do a pentest every week. >> Right. >> You got to do it every second. >> So this is where it's going. It's not so much simulation. It's actually real testing. >> Right. Right. >> How do you view that? How does that fit into this? 'cause that seems like a good direction to me. >> Yeah. If it's right in, and you were talking to my buddy, Ahjay, earlier about what VMware can do to help our customers build cloud native applications with Tanzu. My team is focused on how do we secure those applications? So where VMware wants to be the best in the world is securing these applications from within. Looking at the individual piece parts and how they talk to each other and figuring out, wait a minute, that should never happen. By almost having an x-ray machine on the innards of the application. So we do it for both for VMs and for container based applications. So traditional apps are VM based. Modern apps are container based. And we have a slightly different insertion mechanism. It's the same idea. So for VMs, we do it with a hypervisor with NSX. We see all the inner workings. In a container world we have this thing called a service mesh that lets us look at each little snippet of code and how they talk to each other. And once you can see that stuff, then you can actually apply. It's almost like common sense logic of like, wait a minute. This API is giving back credit card numbers and it gives five an hour. All of a sudden, it's now asking for 20,000 or a million credit cards. That doesn't make any sense. The anomalies stick out like a sore thumb. If you can see them. At VMware, our unique focus in the infrastructure is that we can see each one of these little transactions and understand the conversation. That's what makes us so good at that East-West or lateral security. >> You don't belong in this room, get out or that that's some weird call from an in memory database, something over here. >> Exactly. Where other security solutions won't even see that. It's not like there algorithms aren't as good as ours or better or worse. It's the access to the data. We see the inner plumbing of the app and therefore we can protect the app from. >> And there's another dimension that I want to get in the table here. 'Cause to my knowledge only AWS, Google, I believe Microsoft and Alibaba and VMware have this. >> Correct >> It's Nitro. The equivalent of a Nitro. >> Yes. >> Project Monterey. >> Yeah. >> That's unique. It's the future of computing architectures. Everybody needs a Nitro. I've written about this. >> Yeah. >> Right. So explain your version. >> Yeah. >> It's now real. >> Yeah. >> It's now in the market, right? >> Yeah. >> Or soon will be. >> Here's our mission. >> Salient aspects. >> Yeah. Here's our mission of VMware. Is that we want to make every one of our enterprise customers. We want their private cloud to be as nimble, as agile, as efficient as the public cloud. >> And secure. >> And secure. In fact, I'll argue, we can make it actually more secure because we're thinking about putting security everywhere in this infrastructure. Not just on the edges of it. Okay. How do we go on that journey? As you pointed out, the public cloud providers realized five years ago that the right way to build computers was not just a CPU and a graphics process unit, GPU. But there's this third thing that the industry's calling a DPU, data processing unit. And so there's kind of three pieces of a computer. And the DPU is sometimes called a Smartnic. It's the network interface card. It does all that network handling and analytics and it takes it off the CPU. So they've been building and deploying those systems themselves. That's what Nitro is. And so we have been working with the major Silicon vendors to bring that architecture to everybody. So with vSphere 8, we have the ability to take the network processing, that East-West inspection I talked about, take it off of the CPU and put it into this dedicated processing element called the DPU and free up the CPU to run the applications that Ahjay and team are building. >> So no performance degradation at all? >> Correct. To CPU offload. >> So even the opposite, right? I mean you're running it basically Bare Metal speeds. >> Yes, yes and yes. >> And you're also isolating the storage from the security, the management, and. >> There's an isolation angle to this, which is that firewall, that we're putting everywhere. Not just that the perimeter, but we put it in each little piece of the server is running when it runs on one of these DPUs it's a different memory space. So even if an attacker gets to root in the OS, they it's very, very, never say never, but it's very difficult. >> So who has access to that resource? >> Pretty much just the infrastructure layer, the cloud provider. So it's Amazon, Google, Microsoft, and the enterprise. >> Application can't get in. >> Can't get in there. Cause you would've to literally bridge from one memory space to another. Never say never, but it would be very. >> But it hasn't earned the trust to get. >> It's more than barbwire. It's multiple walls. >> Yes. And it's like an air gap. It puts an air gap in the server itself so that if the server is compromised, it's not going to get into the network. Really powerful. >> What's the big thing that you're seeing with this supercloud transition. We're seeing multi-cloud and this new, not just SaaS hosted on the cloud. >> Yeah. >> You're seeing a much different dynamic of, combination of large scale CapEx, cloud-native, and then now cloud-native drills on premises and edge. Kind of changing what a cloud looks like if the cloud's on a cloud. >> Yeah. >> So we're the customer, I'm building on a cloud and I have on premise stuff. So, I'm getting scale CapEx relief from the hyperscalers. >> I think there's an important nuance on what you're talking about. Which is in the early days of the cloud customers. Remember those first skepticism? Oh, it'll never work. Oh, that's consumer grade. Oh, that's not really going to work. Oh some people realize. >> It's not secure. >> Yeah. It's not secure. >> That one's like, no, no, no it's secure. It works. And it's good. So then there was this sort of over rush. Let's put everything on the cloud. And I had a lot of customers that took VM based applications said, I'm going to move those onto the cloud. You got to take them all apart, put them on the cloud and put them all back together again. And little tiny details like changing an IP address. It's actually much harder than it looks. So my argument is, for existing workloads for VM based workloads, we are VMware. We're so good at running VM based workloads. And now we run them on anybody's cloud. So whether it's your east coast data center, your west coast data center, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Alibaba, IBM keep going. We pretty much every. >> And the benefit of the customer is what. >> You can literally VMotion and just pick it up and move it from private to public, public to private, private to public, Back and forth. >> Remember when we called Vmotion BS, years ago? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> VMotion is powerful. >> We were very skeptical. We're like, that'll never happen. I mean we were. This supposed to be pat ourselves on the back. >> Well because alchemy. It seems like what you can't possibly do that. And now we do it across clouds. So it's not quite VMotion, but it's the same idea. You can just move these things over. I have one customer that had a production data center in the Ukraine. Things got super tense, super fast and they had to go from their private cloud data center in the Ukraine, to a public cloud data center out of harm's way. They did it over a weekend. 48 hours. If you've ever migrated a data center, that's usually six months. Right. And a lot of heartburn and a lot of angst. Boop. They just drag and dropped and moved it on over. That's the power of what we call the cloud operating model. And you can only do this when all your infrastructures defined in software. If you're relying on hardware, load balancers, hardware, firewalls, you can't move those. They're like a boat anchor. You're stuck with them. And by the way, they're really, really expensive. And by the way, they eat a lot of power. So that was an architecture from the 90's. In the cloud operating model your data center. And this comes back to what you were talking about is just racks and racks of X86 with these magic DPUs, or smart nics, to make any individual node go blisteringly fast and do all the functions that you used to do in network appliances. >> We just had Ahjay taking us to school, and everyone else to school on applications, middleware, abstraction layer. And Kit Culbert was also talking about this across cloud. We're talking supercloud, super pass. If this continues to happen, which we would think it will happen. What does the security posture look like? It feels to me, and again, this is your wheelhouse. If supercloud happens with this kind of past layer where there's vMotioning going on. All kinds of spanning applications and data across environments. >> Yeah. Assume there's an operating system working on behind the scenes. >> Right. >> What's the security posture in all this? >> Yeah. So remember my narrative about the bad guys are getting in and they're moving around and they're so sneaky that they're using legitimate pathways. The only way to stop that stuff, is you've got to understand it at what we call Layer 7. At the application layer. Trying to do security to the infrastructure layer. It was interesting 20 years ago, kind of less interesting 10 years ago. And now it's becoming irrelevant because the infrastructure is oftentimes not even visible. It's buried in some cloud provider. So Layer 7 understanding, application awareness, understanding the APIs and reading the content. That's the name of the game in security. That's what we've been focused on. Nothing to do with the infrastructure. >> And where's the progress bar on that paradigm. One to ten. Ten being everyone's doing it. >> Right now. Well, okay. So we as a vendor can do this today. All the stuff I talked about, reading APIs, understanding the individual services looking at, Hey, wait a minute this credit card anomalies, that's all shipping production code. Where is it in customer adoption life cycle? Early days 10%. So there's a whole lot of headroom for people to understand, Hey, I can put these controls in place. They're software based. They don't require appliances. It's Layer 7, so it has contextual awareness and it's works on every single cloud. >> We talked about the pandemic being an accelerator. It really was a catalyst to really rethink. Remember we used to talk about Pat as a security do over. He's like, yes, if it's the last thing I do, I'm going to fix security. Well, he decided to go try to fix Intel instead. >> He's getting some help from the government. >> But it seems like CISOs have totally rethought their security strategy. And at least in part, as a function of the pandemic. >> When I started at VMware four years ago, Pat sat me down in his office and he said to me what he said to you, which is like, "Tom," he said, "I feel like we have fundamentally changed servers. We fundamentally change storage. We fundamentally change networking. The last piece of the puzzle of security. I want you to go fundamentally change it." And I'll argue that the work that we're doing with this horizontal security, understanding the lateral movement. East- West inspection. It fundamentally changes how security works. It's got nothing to do with firewalls. It's got nothing to do with Endpoint. It's a unique capability that VMware is uniquely suited to deliver on. And so Pat, thanks for the mission. We delivered it and it's available now. >> Those WET web applications firewall for instance are around, I mean. But to your point, the perimeter's gone. >> Exactly. >> And so you got to get, there's no perimeter. so it's a surface area problem. >> Correct. And access. And entry. >> Correct. >> They're entering here easy from some manual error, or misconfiguration or bad password that shouldn't be there. They're in. >> Think about it this way. You put the front door of your house, you put a big strong door and a big lock. That's a firewall. Bad guys come in the window. >> And then the windows open. With a ladder. >> Oh my God. Cause it's hot, bad user behavior trumps good security every time. >> And then they move around room to room. We're the room to room people. We see each little piece of the thing. Wait, that shouldn't happen. Right. >> I want to get you a question that we've been seeing and maybe we're early on this or it might be just a false data point. A lot of CSOs and we're talking to are, and people in industry in the customer environment are looking at CISOs and CSOs, two roles. Chief information security officer, and then chief security officer. Amazon, actually Steven Schmidt is now CSO at Reinforce. They actually called that out. And the interesting point that he made, we had some other situations that verified this, is that physical security is now tied to online, to your point about the service area. If I get a password, I still got the keys to the physical goods too. >> Right. So physical security, whether it's warehouse for them or store or retail. Digital is coming in there. >> Yeah. So is there a CISO anymore? Is it just CSO? What's the role? Or are there two roles you see that evolving? Or is that just circumstance. >> I think it's just one. And I think that the stakes are incredibly high in security. Just look at the impact that these security attacks are having on. Companies get taken down. Equifax market cap was cut 80% with a security breach. So security's gone from being sort of a nuisance to being something that can impact your whole kind of business operation. And then there's a whole nother domain where politics get involved. It determines the fate of nations. I know that sounds grand, but it's true. And so companies care so much about it they're looking for one leader, one throat to choke. One person that's going to lead security in the virtual domain, in the physical domain, in the cyber domain, in the actual. >> I mean, you mention that, but I mean, you look at Ukraine. I mean that cyber is a component of that war. I mean, it's very clear. I mean, that's new. We've never seen. this. >> And in my opinion, the stuff that we see happening in the Ukraine is small potatoes compared to what could happen. >> Yeah. >> So the US, we have a policy of strategic deterrence. Where we develop some of the most sophisticated cyber weapons in the world. We don't use them. And we hope never to use them. Because our adversaries, who could do stuff like, I don't know, wipe out every bank account in North America. Or turn off the lights in New York City. They know that if they were to do something like that, we could do something back. >> This is the red line conversation I want to go there. So, I had this discussion with Robert Gates in 2016 and he said, "We have a lot more to lose." Which is really your point. >> So this brand. >> I agree that there's to have freedom and liberty, you got to strike back with divorce. And that's been our way to balance things out. But with cyber, the red line, people are already in banks. So they're are operating below the red line line. Red line meaning before we know you're in there. So do we move the red line down because, hey, Sony got hacked. The movie. Because they don't have their own militia. >> Yeah. >> If their were physical troops on the shores of LA breaking into the file cabinets. The government would've intervened. >> I agree with you that it creates tension for us in the US because our adversaries don't have the clear delineation between public and private sector. Here you're very, very clear if you're working for the government. Or you work for an private entity. There's no ambiguity on that. >> Collaboration, Tom, and the vendor community. I mean, we've seen efforts to try to. >> That's a good question. >> Monetize private data and private reports. >> So at VMware, I'm very proud of the security capabilities we've built. But we also partner with people that I think of as direct competitors. We've got firewall vendors and Endpoint vendors that we work with and integrate. And so coopetition is something that exists. It's hard. Because when you have these kind of competing. So, could we do more? Of course we probably could. But I do think we've done a fair amount of cooperation, data sharing, product integration, et cetera. And as the threats get worse, you'll probably see us continue to do more. >> And the government is going to trying to force that too. >> And the government also drives standards. So let's talk about crypto. Okay. So there's a new form of encryption coming out called processing quantum. >> Quantum. Quantum computers have the potential to crack any crypto cipher we have today. That's bad. Okay. That's not good at all because our whole system is built around these private communications. So the industry is having conversations about crypto agility. How can we put in place the ability to rapidly iterate the ciphers in encryption. So, when the day quantum becomes available, we can change them and stay ahead of these quantum people. >> Well, didn't NIST just put out a quantum proof algo that's being tested right now by the community? >> There's a lot of work around that. Correct. And NIST is taking the lead on this, but Google's working on it. VMware's working on it. We're very, very active in how do we keep ahead of the attackers and the bad guys? Because this quantum thing is a, it's an x-ray machine. It's like a dilithium crystal that can power a whole ship. It's a really, really, really powerful tool. >> Bad things will happen. >> Bad things could happen. >> Well, Tom, great to have you on the theCube. Thanks for coming on. Take the last minute to just give a plug for what's going on for you here at VMWorld this year, just VMware Explore this year. >> Yeah. We announced a bunch of exciting things. We announced enhancements to our NSX family, with our advanced load balancer. With our edge firewall. And they're all in service of one thing, which is helping our customers make their private cloud like the public cloud. So I like to say 0, 0, 0. If you are in the cloud operating model, you have zero proprietary appliances. You have zero tickets to launch a workload. You have zero network taps and Zero Trust built into everything you do. And that's what we're working on. Pushing that further and further. >> Tom Gill, senior vices president, head of the networking at VMware. Thanks for coming on. We do appreciate it. >> Thanks for having us. >> Always getting the security data. That's killer data and security of the two ops that get the most conversations around DevOps and Cloud Native. This is The theCube bringing you all the action here in San Francisco for VMware Explore 2022. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

>>Welcome back everyone Cube's live coverage here. Day two, two sets, three days of cube coverage here at VMware Explorer. This is our 12th year covering VMware's annual conference, formally called world I'm Jean Dave ante. We'd love seeing the progress and we've got great security comes Tom Gill, senior rights, president general manager, networking and advanced security business group at VMware. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Thanks >>For having me. Yeah, really happy we could have you on, you know, I think, I think this is my sixth edition on the cube. Like, do I get freaking flyer points or anything? >>Yeah, you get first get the VIP badge. We'll make that happen. You can start getting credits. >>Okay. There we go. >>We won't interrupt you. No, seriously, you got a great story in security here. The security story is kind of embedded everywhere, so it's not like called out and, and blown up and talked specifically about on stage. It's kind of in all the narratives in, in the VM world for this year. Yeah. But you guys have an amazing security story. So let's just step back into set context. Tell us the security story for what's going on here at VMware and what that means to this super cloud multi-cloud and ongoing innovation with VMware. Yeah, >>Sure thing. So, so probably the first thing I'll point out is that, that security's not just built in at VMware it's built differently, right? So we're not just taking existing security controls and cut and pasting them into, into our software. But we can do things because of our platform because of the virtualization layer that you really can't do with other security tools and where we're very, very focused is what we call lateral security or east west movement of an attacker. Cuz frankly, that's the name of the game these days. Right? Attackers, you gotta assume that they're already in your network. Okay. Already assume that they're there, then how do we make it hard for them to get to what the, the stuff that you really want, which is the data that they're, they're going after. Right. And that's where we, >>We really should. All right. So we've been talking a lot coming into world VMware Explorer and here the event about two things security as a state. Yeah. I'm secure right now. Yeah. Or I, I think I'm secure right now, even though someone might be in my network or in my environment to the notion of being defensible. Yeah. Meaning I have to defend and be ready at a moment's notice to attack, fight, push back red team, blue team, whatever you're gonna call it, but something's happening. I gotta be a to defend. Yeah. >>So you, what you're talking about is the principle of zero trust. So the, the, when we, when I first started doing security, the model was we have a perimeter and everything on one side of the perimeter is dirty, ugly, old internet and everything on this side known good, trusted what could possibly go wrong. And I think we've seen that no matter how good you make that perimeter, bad guys find a way in. So zero trust says, you know what? Let's just assume they're already in. Let's assume they're there. How do we make it hard for them to move around within the infrastructure and get to the really valuable assets? Cuz for example, if they bust into your laptop, you click on a link and they get code running on your machine. They might find some interesting things on your machine, but they're not gonna find 250 million credit cards. Right. Or the, the script of a new movie or the super secret aircraft plans, right. That lives in a database somewhere. And so it's that movement from your laptop to that database. That's where the damage is done. Yeah. And that's where VMware shines. If they don't >>Have the right to get to that database, they're >>Not >>In and it's not even just the right, like, so they're so clever. And so sneaky that they'll steal a credential off your machine, go to another machine, steal a credential off of that. So it's like they have the key to unlock each one of these doors and we've gotten good enough where we can look at that lateral movement, even though it has a credential and a key where like, wait a minute, that's not a real CIS admin making a change. That's ransomware. Yeah. Right. And that's, that's where we, you have to earn your way in. That's right. That's >>Right. Yeah. And we're all, there's all kinds of configuration errors. But also some, some I'll just user problems. I've heard one story where there's so many passwords and username and passwords and systems that the bad guy's scour, the dark web for passwords that have been exposed. Correct. And go test them against different accounts. Oh one hit over here. Correct. And people don't change their passwords all the time. Correct? Correct. That's a known, known vector. We, >>We just, the idea that users are gonna be perfect and never make mistake. Like how long have we been doing this? Like humans with the weakest link. Right. So, so, so people are gonna make mistakes. Attackers are gonna be in here's another way of thinking about it. Remember log for J. Remember that whole ago, remember that was a Christmas time. That was nine months ago. And whoever came up with that, that vulnerability, they basically had a skeleton key that could access every network on the planet. I don't know if a single customer that was said, oh yeah, I wasn't impacted by log for J. So seers, some organized entity had access to every network on the planet. What was the big breach? What was that movie script that got stolen? So there wasn't one. Right? We haven't heard anything. So the point is the goal of attackers is to get in and stay in. Imagine someone breaks into your house, steals your laptop and runs. That's a breach. Imagine someone breaks into your house and stays for nine months. Like it's untenable, the real world. Right, right. >>We don't even go in there. They're still in there >>Watching your closet. Exactly. Moving around, nibbling on your ni line, your cookies. You know what I mean? Drinking your beer. >>Yeah. So, so let's talk about how this translates into the new reality of cloud native, because now know you hear about, you know, automated pen testing is a, a new hot thing right now you got antivirus on data. Yeah. Is hot is hot within APIs, for instance. Yeah. API security. So all kinds of new hot areas, cloud native is very iterative. You know, you, you can't do a pen test every week. Right. You gotta do it every second. Right. So this is where it's going. It's not so much simulation. It's actually real testing. Right. Right. How do you view that? How does that fit into this? Cuz that seems like a good direction to me. >>Yeah. It, it, it fits right in. And you were talking to my buddy AJ earlier about what VMware can do to help our customers build cloud native applications with, with Zu, my team is focused on how do we secure those applications? So where VMware wants to be the best in the world is securing these applications from within looking at the individual piece parts and how they talk to each other and figuring out, wait a minute. That, that, that, that, that should never happen by like almost having an x-ray machine on the ins of the application. So we do it for both for VMs and for container based applications. So traditional apps are VM based. Modern apps are container based and we, and we have a slightly different insertion mechanism. It's the same idea. So for VMs, we do it with the hypervisor, with NSX, we see all the inner workings in a container world. >>We have this thing called a service me that lets us look at each little snippet of code and how they talk to each other. And once you can see that stuff, then you can actually apply. It's almost like common sense logic of like, wait a minute. You know, this API is giving back credit card numbers and it gives five an hour. All of a sudden, it's now asking for 20,000 or a million credit card that doesn't make any sense. Right? The anomalies stick out like a sore thumb. If you can see them. And VMware, our unique focus in the infrastructure is that we can see each one of these little transactions and understand the conversation. That's what makes us so good at that east west or lateral >>Security. Yeah. You don't belong in this room, get out or that that's right. Some weird call from an in-memory database, something over >>Here. Exactly. Where other, other security solutions won't even see that. Right. It's not like there algorithms aren't as good as ours or, or better or worse. It's that, it's the access to the data. We see the, the, the, the inner plumbing of the app. And therefore we can protect >>The app from, and there's another dimension that I wanna get in the table here, cuz to my knowledge only AWS, Google, I, I believe Microsoft and Alibaba and VMware have this, it nitro the equivalent of a nitro. Yes. Project Monterey. Yeah. That's unique. It's the future of computing architectures. Everybody needs a nitro. I've I've written about this. Yeah. Right. So explain your version. Yeah. Project. It's now real. It's now in the market right. Or soon will be. Yeah. Here. Here's our mission salient aspects. Yeah. >>Here's our mission of VMware is that we wanna make every one of our enterprise customers. We want their private cloud to be as nimble, as agile, as efficient as the public cloud >>And secure >>And secure. In fact, I'll argue, we can make it actually more secure because we're thinking about putting security everywhere in this infrastructure. Right. Not just on the edges of it. So, so, so, okay. How do we go on that journey? As you pointed out, the public cloud providers realized, you know, five years ago that the right way to build computers was not just a CPU and a GPU graphics process, unit GPU, but there's this third thing that the industry's calling a DPU data processing unit. So there's kind of three pieces of a computer. And the DPU is sometimes called a smart Nick it's the network interface card. It does all that network handling and analytics and it takes it off the CPU. So they've been building and deploying those systems themselves. That's what nitro is. And so we have been working with the major Silicon vendors to bring that architecture to everybody. So, so with vSphere eight, we have the ability to take the network processing that east west inspection. I talked about, take it off of the CPU and put it into this dedicated processing element called the DPU and free up the CPU to run the applications that AJ and team are building. >>So no performance degradation at all, correct. >>To CPU >>Offload. So even the opposite, right? I mean you're running it basically bare metal speeds. >>Yes, yes. And yes. >>And, and, and you're also isolating the, the storage right from the, from the, the, the security, the management. And >>There's an isolation angle to this, which is that firewall that we're putting everywhere. Not just that the perimeter, we put it in each little piece of the server is running when it runs on one of these DPU, it's a different memory space. So even if, if an attacker gets to root in the OS, they it's very, very, never say never, but it's very difficult. >>So who has access to that? That, that resource >>Pretty much just the infrastructure layer, the cloud provider. So it's Google Microsoft, you know, and the enterprise, the >>Application can't get in, >>Can't get in there. Cause it, you would've to literally bridge from one memory space to another, never say never, but it would be very, very, >>It hasn't earned the trust >>To get it's more than Bob wire. It's, it's, it's multiple walls and, and >>It's like an air gap. It puts an air gap in the server itself so that if the server's compromised, it's not gonna get into the network really powerful. >>What's the big thing that you're seeing with this super cloud transition we're seeing, we're seeing, you know, multicloud and this new, not just SAS hosted on the cloud. Yeah. You're seeing a much different dynamic of combination of large scale CapEx, cloud native. And then now cloud native develops on premises and edge kind of changing what a cloud looks like if the cloud's on a cloud. So rubber customer, I'm building on a cloud and I have on-prem stuff. So I'm getting scale CapEx relief from the, from the cap, from the hyperscalers. >>I, I think there's an important nuance on what you're talking about, which is, is in the early days of the cloud customers. Remember those first skepticism? Oh, it'll never work. Oh, that's consumer grade. Oh, that's not really gonna work. And some people realize >>It's not secure. Yeah. >>It, it's not secure that one's like, no, no, no, it's secure. It works. And it, and it's good. So then there was this sort of over rush. Like let's put everything on the cloud. And I had a lot of customers that took VM based applications said, I'm gonna move those onto the cloud. You gotta take 'em all apart, put 'em on the cloud and put 'em all back together again. And little tiny details, like changing an IP address. It's actually much harder than it looks. So my argument is for existing workloads for VM based workloads, we are VMware. We're so good at running VM based workloads. And now we run them on anybody's cloud. So whether it's your east coast data center, your west coast data center, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Alibaba, IBM keep going. Right. We pretty much every, and >>The benefit of the customer is what you >>Can literally vMotion and just pick it up and move it from private to public public, to private, private, to public, public, back and forth. >>Remember when we called VMO BS years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >>We were really, skeptic is >>Powerful. We were very skeptical. We're like, that'll never happen. I mean, we were, I mean, it's supposed to be pat ourselves on the back. We, well, >>Because it's alchemy, it seems like what you can't possibly do that. Right. And so, so, so, and now we do it across clouds, right? So we can, you know, it's not quite VMO, but it's the same idea. You can just move these things over. I have one customer that had a production data center in the Ukraine, things got super tense, super fast, and they had to go from their private cloud data center in the Ukraine to a public cloud data center outta harm's way. They did it over a weekend, 48 hours. If you've ever migrated data, that's usually six months, right? And a lot of heartburn and a lot of angst, boom. They just drag and drop, moved it on over. That's the power of what we call the cloud operating model. And you can only do this when all your infrastructure's defined in software. >>If you're relying on hardware, load, balancers, hardware, firewalls, you can't move those. They're like a boat anchor. You're stuck with them. And by the way, really, really expensive. And by the way, they eat a lot of power, right? So that was an architecture from the nineties in the cloud operating model, your data center. And this goes back to what you were talking about is just racks and racks of X 86 with these magic DPU or smart necks to make any individual node go blisteringly fast and do all the functions that you used to do in network appliances. >>We just said, AJ taking us to school and everyone else to school on applications, middleware abstraction layer. Yeah. And kit Culver was also talking about this across cloud. We're talking super cloud, super pass. If this continues to happen, which we would think it will happen. What does the security posture look like? It has. It feels to me. And again, this is, this is your wheelhouse. If super cloud happens with this kind of past layer where there's B motioning going on, all kinds of yeah. Spanning applications and data. Yeah. Across environments. Yeah. Assume there's an operating system working on behind the scenes. Right. What's the security posture in all this. Yeah. >>So remember my narrative about like VA guys are getting in and they're moving around and they're so sneaky that they're using legitimate pathways. The only way to stop that stuff is you've gotta understand it at what, you know, we call layer seven at the application layer the in, you know, trying to do security, the infrastructure layer. It was interesting 20 years ago, kind of less interesting 10 years ago. And now it's becoming irrelevant because the infrastructure is oftentimes not even visible, right. It's buried in some cloud provider. So layer seven, understanding, application awareness, understanding the APIs and reading the content. That's the name of the game in security. That's what we've been focused on. Right. Nothing to do with >>The infras. And where's the progress bar on that, that paradigm early one at the 10, 10 being everyone's doing it >>Right now. Well, okay. So we, as a vendor can do this today. All the stuff I talked about about reading APIs, understanding the, the individual services looking at, Hey, wait a minute. This credit card anomalies, that's all shipping production code. Where is it in customer adoption life cycle, early days, 10%. So, so there's a whole lot of headroom. We, for people to understand, Hey, I can put these controls in place. There's software based. They don't require appliances. It's layer seven. So it has contextual awareness and it's works on every single cloud. >>You know, we talk about the pandemic. Being an accelerator really was a catalyst to really rethink. Remember we used to talk about pat his security a do over. He's like, yes, if it's the last thing I'm due, I'm gonna fix security. Well, he decided to go try to fix Intel instead, but, >>But, but he's getting some help from the government, >>But it seems like, you know, CISOs have totally rethought, you know, their security strategy. And, and at least in part is a function of the pandemic. >>When I started at VMware four years ago, pat sat me down in his office and he said to me what he said to you, which is like Tom, he said, I feel like we have fundamentally changed servers. We fundamentally changed storage. We fundamentally changed networking. The last piece of the puzzle of security. I want you to go fundamentally change it. And I'll argue that the work that we're doing with this, this horizontal security understanding the lateral movement east west inspection, it fundamentally changes how security works. It's got nothing to do with firewalls. It's got nothing to do with endpoint. It's a unique capability that VMware is uniquely suited to deliver on. And so pat, thanks for the mission. We delivered it and available >>Those, those wet like web applications firewall for instance are, are around. I mean, but to your point, the perimeter's gone. Exactly. And so you gotta get, there's no perimeter. So it's a surface area problem. Correct. And access and entry, correct. They're entering here easy from some manual error or misconfiguration or bad password that shouldn't be there. They're >>In. Think about it this way. You put the front door of your house, you put a big strong door and a big lock. That's a firewall bad guys, come in the window. Right. And >>Then the window's open and the window with a ladder room. Oh my >>God. Cause it's hot, bad user behavior. Trump's good security >>Every time. And then they move around room to room. We're the room to room people. Yeah. We see each little piece of the thing. Wait, that shouldn't happen. Right. >>I wanna get you a question that we've been seeing and maybe we're early on this, or it might be just a, a false data point. A lot of CSOs and we're talking to are, and people in industry in the customer environment are looking at CSOs and CSOs, two roles, chief information security officer, and then chief security officer Amazon, actually, Steven Schmidt is now CSO at reinforced. They actually called that out. Yeah. And the, and the interesting point that he made, we've had some other situations that verified. This is that physical security is now tied to online to your point about the service area. If I get a password, I still at the keys to the physical goods too. Right. Right. So physical security, whether it's warehouse for them is, or store or retail digital is coming in there. Yeah. So is there a CSO anymore? Is it just CSO? What's the role or are there two roles you see that evolving or is that just, >>Well, >>I circumstance, >>I, I think it's just one. And I think that, that, you know, the stakes are incredibly high in security. Just look at the impact that these security attacks are having on it. It, you know, companies get taken down, Equifax market cap was cut, you know, 80% with a security breach. So security's gone from being sort of a nuisance to being something that can impact your whole kind of business operation. And then there's a whole nother domain where politics get involved. Right. It determines the fate of nations. I know that sounds grand, but it's true. Yeah. And so, so, so companies care so much about it. They're looking for one liter, one throat to choke, you know, one person that's gonna lead security in the virtual domain, in the physical domain, in the cyber domain, in, in, you know, in the actual, well, it is, >>I mean, you mentioned that, but I mean, mean you look at Ukraine. I mean the, the, that, that, that cyber is a component of that war. I mean, that's very clear. I mean, that's, that's new, we've never seen >>This. And in my opinion, the stuff that we see happening in the Ukraine is small potatoes compared to what could happen. Yeah, yeah. Right. So the us, we have a policy of, of strategic deterrents where we develop some of the most sophisticated cyber weapons in the world. We don't use them and we hope never to use them because the, the, our adversaries who could do stuff like, oh, I don't know, wipe out every bank account in north America, or turn off the lights in New York city. They know that if they were to do something like that, we could do something back. >>I, this discuss, >>This is the red line conversation I wanna go there. So >>I had this discussion with Robert Gates in 2016 and he said, we have a lot more to lose, which is really >>Your point. So this brand, so I agree that there's the, to have freedom and Liberty, you gotta strike back with divorce and that's been our way to, to balance things out. Yeah. But with cyber, the red line, people are already in banks. So they're addresses are operating below the red line, red line, meaning before we know you're in there. So do we move the red line down because Hey, Sony got hacked the movie because they don't have their own militia. Yeah. If they were physical troops on the shores of LA breaking into the file cabinets. Yeah. The government would've intervened. >>I, I, I agree with you that it creates, it creates tension for us in the us because our, our adversaries don't have the clear delineation between public and private sector here. You're very, very clear if you're working for the government or you work for an private entity, there's no ambiguity on that. And so, so we have different missions in each department. Other countries will use the same cyber capabilities to steal intellectual, you know, a car design as they would to, you know, penetrate a military network. And that creates a huge hazard for us on the us. Cause we don't know how to respond. Yeah. Is that a civil issue? Is that a, a, a military issue? And so, so it creates policy ambiguity. I still love the clarity of separation of, you know, sort of the various branches of government separation of government from, >>But that, but, but bureau on multinational corporation, you then have to, your cyber is a defensible. You have to build the defenses >>A hundred percent. And I will also say that even though there's a clear D mark between government and private sector, there's an awful lot of cooperation. So, so our CSO, Alex toshe is actively involved in the whole intelligence community. He's on boards and standards and we're sharing because we have a common objective, right? We're all working together to fight these bad guys. And that's one of the things I love about cyber is that that even direct competitors, two big banks that are rivals on the street are working together to share security information and, and private, is >>There enough? Is collaboration Tom in the vendor community? I mean, we've seen efforts to try to, that's a good question, monetize private data, you know? Yeah. And private reports and, >>And, you know, like, so at VMware, we, we, I'm very proud of the security capabilities we've built, but we also partner with people that I think of as direct competitors, we've got firewall vendors and endpoint vendors that we work with and integrate. And so cooperation is something that exists. It's hard, you know, because when you have these kind of competing, you know, so could we do more? Of course we probably could, but I do think we've done a fair amount of cooperation, data sharing, product integration, et cetera, you know, and, you know, as the threats get worse, you'll probably see us continue to do more. >>And the governments is gonna trying to force that too. >>And, and the government also drives standards. So let's talk about crypto. Okay. So there's a new form of encryption coming out called quantum processing, calling out. Yeah. Yeah. Quantum, quantum computers have the potential to crack any crypto cipher we have today. That's bad. Okay. Right. That's not good at all because our whole system is built around these private communications. So, so the industry is having conversations about crypto agility. How can we put in place the ability to rapidly iterate the ciphers in encryption? So when the day quantum becomes available, we can change them and stay ahead of these quantum people. Well, >>Didn't this just put out a quantum proof algo that's being tested right now by the, the community. >>There's a lot of work around that. Correct. And, and, and this is taking the lead on this, but you know, Google's working on it, VMware's working on it. We're very, very active in how do we keep ahead of the attackers and the bad guys? Because this quantum thing is like a, it's a, it's a x-ray machine. You know, it's like, it's like a, a, a di lithium crystal that can power a whole ship. Right. It's a really, really, really powerful >>Tool. It's bad. Things will happen. >>Bad things could happen. >>Well, Tom, great to have you on the cube. Thanks for coming. Take the last minute to just give a plug for what's going on for you here at world this year, VMware explore this year. Yeah. >>We announced a bunch of exciting things. We announced enhancements to our, our NSX family, with our advanced load balancer, with our edge firewall. And they're all in service of one thing, which is helping our customers make their private cloud like the public cloud. So I like to say 0, 0, 0. If you are in the cloud operating model, you have zero proprietary appliances. You have zero tickets to launch a workload. You have zero network taps and zero trust built into everything you do. And that's, that's what we're working on and pushing that further and further. >>Tom Gill, senior vices president head of the networking at VMware. Thanks for coming up for you. Appreciate >>It. Yes. Thanks for having guys >>Always getting the security data. That's killer data and security of the two ops that get the most conversations around dev ops and cloud native. This is the queue bringing you all the action here in San Francisco for VMware. Explore 2022. I'm John furrier with Dave, Alan. Thanks for watching.

(gentle music) >> Okay. We're back at AWS re:Invent. You're watching theCUBE's continuous coverage. This is day four. Think it's the first time, at re:Invent, we've done four days. This is our ninth year covering re:Invent. Tom Miller is here. He's the senior vice president of alliances. And he's joined by Ankur Jain, who's the global cloud practice lead at Merkle. Guys, good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Good to see you. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Tom, tell us about Merkel, for those who might not be familiar with you. >> Yeah. So, Merkle is a customer experience management company that is under the dentsu umbrella. Dentsu is a global media agency. We represent one of the pillars, which is customer experience management. And they also have media and creative. And what Merkle does is provide that technology to help bring that creative and media together. >> So you're a tech company? >> Yes. >> Right? Okay. So there's some big tailwinds, changes, trends going on in the market. Obviously, the pandemic, the forced march to digital, there's regulation. What are some of the big waves that you guys are seeing, that you're trying to ride? >> So what we're seeing is, as a start, we've got a lot of existing databases with clients that are on-prem, that we manage today, within a SQL environment or so forth. And they need to move that to a cloud environment. To be more flexible, more agile, provide them with more data, be able to follow that customer experience that they want with their clients, that they're all realizing they need, to be in a digital environment. And so, that's a big push for us working with AWS and helping move our clients into that cloud environment. >> And you're relatively you new to the AWS world, right? Maybe you can talk about that, Ankur. >> Well, actually, as a partner, we may be new. But Merkle has been working with AWS for over five years. >> Dave Vellante: As a customer? >> As a customer. >> Yeah. >> So what we did was, last year, we formalized the relationship with AWS to be an advanced partner now. So we are part of the re:Stack program, basically, which is a pool of very select partners. And Merkel comes in with the specialization of marketing. So, as Tom said, you know, we are part of a dentsu umbrella. Our core focus is on customer experience transformation. And how we do that customer experience transformation is through digital transformation, data transformation. And that's where we see AWS being a very good partner to us, to modernize the solutions that Merkle can take to the market. >> So, I mean, your on-prem databases, there's probably a lot of diversity on-prem. (laughs) A lot of tech... When the cloud, you know, more agility, infinite resources. Do you have a tech stack? Are you more of an integrator? Right tool for the right job? Maybe you could describe your technical philosophy. >> Yeah, I could take that. What Tom just described... So let me give you some perspective on what these databases are. These databases are, essentially, Merkle helping big brands, Fortune 100, Fortune 500 brands to modernize their marketing ecosystem. Especially, MarTech ecosystem. So these databases, they house customer touchpoints, customer data from disparate sources. And they, basically, integrate that data in one central place. And then bolt-on analytics, data science, artificial intelligence, machine learning, on top of it. Helping them with those email campaigns or direct mail campaigns, social campaigns. So that's what these databases are all about. And these databases, currently, sit on-prem, on Merkle's own data center. And we have a huge opportunity to kind of take those databases and modernize them. Give all these AI, ML type of capabilities, advanced analytic capabilities, to our customers by using AWS as the platform to kind of migrate that. >> Dave Vellante: And you do that as a service? >> We do that as a service. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Strategically, >> Yes. >> you're sort of transforming your business- >> Yes. >> to help your customers transform their business. >> Right. >> Right? Take away, it's classic. I mean, it's happening. This theme of, you know, AWS started with taking away the undifferentiated heavy lifting for infrastructure. Now you're seeing Nasdaq, Goldman Sachs, you guys in the media world, essentially building your own clouds, right? That's the strategy. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Right? >> Absolutely. >> Superclouds, we call 'em. >> Superclouds, yeah. (Dave laughs) It's about helping our clients understand what is it they're trying to accomplish. And, for the most part, they're trying to understand the customer journey, where that customer is, how they're driving that experience with them, and understanding that experience through the journey. And doing that in the cloud makes it tremendously easier and more economical for 'em. >> Yeah, I was listening to the Snowflake earnings call from last night. And they were talking about, you know, a couple of big verticals, one being media. And all they keep talking about was direct-to-consumer, right? You're hearing that a lot. >> Ankur Jain: Yes. >> Media companies want to interact and build community directly. They don't want to necessarily, I mean, you don't want to go through a third-party anymore, if you don't have to. Technology's enabling that, right? Is that, kind of, the play here? >> Yes. Direct-to-consumer is a huge play. Companies which were traditionally brick-and-mortar-based, or relied on a supply chain of dealers and distributors, are now, basically, transforming themselves to be direct-to-consumer. They want to sell directly to the consumer. Personalization becomes a big theme, especially in D2C type of environment. Because, now, those customers are expecting brands to know what's their like, what's their dislike, which products, which services are they interested in. So that's all kind of advanced analytics, machine learning powered solutions. These are big data problems, that all these brands are kind of trying to solve. That's where Merkle is partnering with AWS, to bring all those technologies, and build those next generation solutions for our customers. >> So what kind of initiatives are you working on with AWS? >> So, there are, like, three, four areas that we are working very closely with AWS. Number one, I would say, think about our marketer's friend. You know, and they have a transformation like direct-to-consumer, omnichannel, e-commerce, these type of capabilities in mind. But they don't know where to start. What tools, what technologies will be part of that ecosystem. So that's where Merkle provides consulting services. To give them a roadmap, give them recommendations on how to structure these big, large strategic initiatives. That's number one, we are doing in partnership with AWS. To reach out to our joint customers and help them transform those ecosystems. Number two, as Tom mentioned, migrations. You know, helping chief data officers, chief technology officers, chief marketing officers modernize their environment, by migrating them to cloud. Number three, Merkle has a solution called Merkury, which is essentially all about customer identity. How do we identify a customer across multiple channels? We are modernizing all that solution, making that available on AWS Marketplace for customers to, actually, easily use that solution. And number four, I would say is, helping them set up data foundation. That's through intelligent marketing data lake. You know, leveraging AWS technologies like Glue, Redshift, and actually modernize their data platforms. And number four is more around clean rooms. Which is, bring on your first-party data, join it with Amazon data, to see how those customers are behaving when they are making a purchase on Amazon.com. Which gives insight to these brands, to reshape their marketing strategy to those customers. So those are, like, four, five focus areas. >> No, it's good. So, I was going to ask you about the data and the data strategy. Like, who owns the data? You're kind of alchemists, that... Your clients have first-party data. >> Ankur Jain: Yes. >> And then you might recommend bringing in other data sources. >> Yes. >> And then you're sort of creating this new cocktail. Who owns the data? >> Well, ultimately, client owns the data, because that's their customer's data. To your point on, we help them enrich that data by bringing in third-party data, which is what we call as... So Merkle has a service called DataSource, which is essentially a collection of data that we acquire about customers. Their likes, their dislikes, their buying power, their interests. So we monetize all that data. And the idea is, to take those data assets and make them available on AWS Data Exchange. So that it becomes very easy for brands to use their first-party data, take this third-party data from Merkle, and then, segment their customers much more intelligently. >> And the CMO is your sort of ideal customer profile? >> Yeah. CMO is our main customer profile. And we'll work with the chief data officer, or we'll work with the chief technology officer. We bridge both sides. We can go technology and marketing, and bring them both together. So you have a CMO who's trying to solve for some type of issue. And you have a chief technology officer who wants to improve their infrastructure. And we know how to bring them together into a conversation and help both parties get what they want. >> And I suppose the chief digital officer fits in there too? >> Tom Miller: Yeah, he fits in there too. >> CGO, chief dig. officer, CMO. Sometimes, they're one in the same. Other times, they're mixed. >> Yep. Yep. >> I've seen CIOs and CDOs together. >> Yes. >> Sure. >> It's all data. >> It's all data. (Dave laughs) >> Yeah. Some of the roles that come into play, as Tom mentioned, and you mentioned, CIO, CTO, chief information officer, chief technology officer, chief data officer, more from the IT side. And then we have the CMOs, chief digital officers, from the marketing side. So the secret sauce that Merkle brings to the table is that we know the language, what IT speaks and what business speaks. So when we talked about the business initiatives, like direct-to-consumer, omnichannel, e-commerce, those are more business-driven initiatives. That's where Merkle comes in, to kind of help them with our expertise over the last 30 years, on how to run these strategic initiatives. And then, at the same time, how do we translate those strategic initiatives into IT transformation? Because it does require a lot of IT transformation to happen underneath. That's where AWS also helps us. So we kind of span across both sides of the horizon. >> So you've got data, you've got tools, you've got software, you've got expertise, that now, you're making that available as a service. Is that right? >> That's right. Yes. >> Yes. >> How far are you into that journey, of saasfying your business? >> Well, the cloud journey started almost, I would say, five to seven years ago at Merkle. >> Yeah. Where you began leveraging the cloud? >> That's right. >> Dave Vellante: And then the light bulb went off and- >> So cloud, again, we use cloud in multiple aspects. From general computing perspective, leveraging, you know, fully managed services that AWS offers. So that's one aspect, which is to bring in data from disparate sources, house it, analyze it, and derive intelligence. The second piece, on the cloud side, is SaaS offering, Software as a Service offerings, like Adobe, Salesforce, and other CDP platforms. So Merkle covers a huge spectrum, when it comes to cloud. >> And you got a combination, you have a consulting business, and also- >> So Merkle has multiple service lines. Consulting business is one of them. Where we can help them on how to approach these transformational initiatives, and give them blueprints and roadmaps and strategy. Then we can also help them understand what the customer strategy should be, so that they can market very intelligently to their end customers. Then we have a technology business, which is all about leveraging cloud and advanced analytics. Then we have a data business, the data assets that I was talking about, that we monetize. We have promotions and loyalty, we have media. So we cover multiple services. >> Dave Vellante: Quite a portfolio. >> Yes. >> You mentioned analytics a couple of times, how do you tie that back to the sales function? I would imagine your clients are increasingly asking for analytics, so they can manage their dashboards and make sure they're above the line. How is that evolving? >> Yeah. So that's a very important line. Because, you know, data is data, right? You bring in the data, but what you do with the data, how you ask questions and how you derive intelligence from it, because that's the actionable part. So, few areas. I'll give you one or two examples on how those analytics kind of come into picture. Let's imagine a brand which is trying to sell a particular product or a particular service to a set of customers. Now, who those set of customers are, you know, where they should target this, who their target customers are, what their demographics are, that's all done through analytics. And what I gave you is a very simple example. There are so many advanced examples, you know, that come into artificial intelligence, machine learning, those type of aspects as well. So analytics definitely play a huge role on how these brands need to sell, and personalize the offerings that they want to offer to the customers. >> Used to be, really, pure art, right? It's really becoming- >> Not any more, it's all data driven companies. (Tom laughs) >> It's "Moneyball." >> Yes. Exactly. (Dave laughs) >> Tom Miller: Exactly. >> There's, maybe, still a little bit of art in there, right? It doesn't hurt to have a little creative flair, still. >> Yes. >> But you got to go with the data. >> And that's where the expertise comes in, right? That's where the experience comes in. And how you take that science and combine it with the art, to present it to a end customer, that's exactly, you know, it's a combination. >> And we also take the time to educate our clients on how we're doing it. So it's not done in a black box, so they can learn and grow themselves. Where they may end up developing their own group to handle it, as opposed to outsourcing with Merkle. >> You got to teach 'em how to fish. Last question. Where do you see this in two to three years? Where do you want to take? >> I think future is cloud, AWS being the market leader. I think AWS has a huge role to play. We are very excited to be partners with AWS, I think it's a match made in heaven. AWS sales in, majority of the sales happen in IT. Our focus is marketing. I think if we can bring both the worlds together, I think that will be a very powerful story for us to tell. >> Yeah, that's good news for AWS. If a little of your DNA could rub off on them, it'd be good. >> Tom Miller: Yeah. >> Guys, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. >> Thanks, Dave. >> It was great to see you. >> Thank you, Dave. >> Appreciate it. >> All right. Thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante, for theCUBE. Day four, AWS re:Invent. We're theCUBE, the global leader in high-tech coverage. Be right back. (gentle music)

>>Okay, We're back at AWS Re. Invent. You're watching the >>cubes. Continuous coverage >>coverage. This is Day four. I think it's the first time it reinvent. We've done four days. This is our ninth year covering Reinvent. Tom Miller is here is the senior vice president of Alliances. And he's joined by Anchor Jane. Who's the global cloud? Practically practise lead at Merkel. Guys, good to see you. Thanks for coming on. Thank you, Tom. Tell us about Merkel. For those who might not be familiar with you. >>So Merkel is a customer experience management company. That is, um, under the Dentsu umbrella. Dense. Who is a global media agency? We represent one of the pillars which is global, our customer experience management. And they also have media and creative. And what Merkel does is provide that technology to help bring that creative and media together. They're a tech company. Yes. >>Okay, so there's some big big tail winds, changes, trends going on in the market. Obviously the pandemic. You know, the force marched to digital. Uh, there's regulation. What are some of the big waves that you guys are seeing that you're trying to ride? >>So what we're seeing is, uh we've got, uh, as a start. We've got a lot of existing databases with clients that are on Prem that we manage today within a sequel environment or so forth. And they need to move that to a cloud environment to be more flexible, more agile, provide them with more data to be able to follow that customer experience that they want with their clients, that they're all realising they need to be in a digital environment. And so that's a big push for us working with AWS and helping move our clients into that cloud environments. >>And you're relatively new to the ws world, right? Maybe you can talk >>about that anchor actually, as a partner. We may be new, but Merkel works with AWS has been working with AWS for over five years as a customer as a customer. So what we did was last year we formalise the relationship with us to be, uh, an advanced partner now. So we were part of the restock programme, basically which is a pool of very select partners. And Merkel comes in with the specialisation of marketing. So as Tom said, you know, we're part of, uh Dentsu umbrella are our core focuses on customer experience, transformation and how we do that Customer experience. Transformation is through digital transformation, data transformation. And that's where we see AWS being a very good partner to us to modernise the solutions that Martin can take to the market. >>So your on Prem databases is probably a lot of diversity on a lot of technical that when the cloud more agility, infinite resources do you have a tech stack? Are you more of an integrator? Right tool for the right job? Maybe you could describe >>your I can take that what time just described. So let me give you some perspective on what these databases are. These databases are essentially Markle, helping big brands 1400 Fortune 500 brands to organise their marketing ecosystem, especially Martek ecosystem. So these databases, they house customer touchpoints customer customer data from disparate sources, and they basically integrate that data in one central place and then bolt on analytics, data science, artificial intelligence, machine learning on top of it, helping them with those email campaigns or direct mail campaigns, social campaigns. So that's what these databases are all about, and and these databases currently set on Prem on Merkel's own data centre. And we have a huge opportunity to kind of take those databases and modernise them. Give all these ai ml type of capabilities advanced analytic capabilities to our customers by using AWS is the platform to kind of migrate. And you do that as a service. We do that as a service. >>Strategically, you're sort of transforming your business to help your customers transform their business right? Take away. It's it's classic. I mean, you really it's happening. This theme of, you know a W started with taking away the undifferentiated heavy lifting for infrastructure. Now you're seeing NASDAQ. Goldman Sachs. You guys in the media world essentially building your own clouds, right? That's the strategy. Yes, super clouds. We call >>them Super Cloud. Yeah, it's about helping our clients understand What is it they're trying to accomplish? And for the most part, they're trying to understand the customer journey where the customer is, how they're driving that experience with them and understanding that experience through the journey and doing that in the cloud makes it tremendously easier and more economical form. >>I was listening to the, uh, snowflake earnings call from last night and they were talking about, you know, a couple of big verticals, one being media and all. I keep talking about direct direct to consumer, right? You're hearing that a lot of media companies want to interact and build community directly. They don't want to necessarily. I mean, you don't want to go through a third party anymore if you don't have to, Technology is enabling that is that kind of the play here? >>Yes, Director Consumer is a huge player. Companies which were traditionally brick and mortar based or relied on a supply chain of dealers and distributors are now basically transforming themselves to be direct to consumer. They want to sell directly to the consumer. Personalisation comes becomes a big theme, especially indeed to see type of environment, because now those customers are expecting brands to know what's there like. What's their dislike? Which products which services are they interested in? So that's that's all kind of advanced analytics machine learning powered solutions. These are big data problems that all these brands are kind of trying to solve. That's where Merkel is partnering with AWS to bring all those technologies and and build those next generation solutions for access. So what kind >>of initiatives are you working >>on? So there are, like, 34 areas that we are working very closely with AWS number one. I would say Think about our marketers friend, you know, and they have a transformation like direct to consumer on the channel e commerce, these types of capabilities in mind. But they don't know where to start. What tools? What technologies will be part of that ecosystem. That's where Merkel provides consulting services to to give them a road map, give them recommendations on how to structure these big, large strategic initiatives. That's number one we are doing in partnership with AWS to reach out to our joint customers and help them transform those ecosystems. Number two as Tom mentioned migrations, helping chief data officers, chief technology officers, chief marketing officers modernise their environment by migrating them to cloud number three. Merkel has a solution called mercury, which is essentially all about customer identity. How do we identify a customer across multiple channels? We are Modernising all that solution of making that available on AWS marketplace for customers to actually easily use that solution. And number four, I would say, is helping them set up data foundation. That's through intelligent marketing Data Lake leveraging AWS technologies like blue, red shift and and actually modernise their data platforms. And number four is more around clean rooms, which is bring on your first party data. Join it with Amazon data to see how those customers are behaving when they are making a purchase on amazon dot com, which gives insights to these brands to reshape their marketing strategy to those customers. So those are like four or five focus areas. So I was >>gonna ask you about the data and the data strategy like, who owns the data? You're kind of alchemists that your clients have first party data and you might recommend bringing in other data sources. And you're sort of creating this new cocktail. Who owns the data? >>Well, ultimately, client also data because that that's their customers' data. Uh, to your point on, we helped them enrich that data by bringing in third party data, which is what we call is. So Merkel has a service called data source, which is essentially a collection of data that we acquire about customers. Their likes, their dislikes, their buying power, their interests so we monetise all that data. And the idea is to take those data assets and make them available on AWS data exchange so that it becomes very easy for brands to use their first party data. Take this third party data from Merkel and then, uh, segment their customers much more intelligently. >>And the CMO is your sort of ideal customer profile. >>Yeah, CMO is our main customer profile and we'll work with the chief data officer Will work with the chief technology officer. We kind of we bridge both sides. We can go technology and marketing and bring them both together. So you have a CMO who's trying to solve for some type of issue. And you have a chief technology officer who wants to improve their infrastructure. And we know how to bring them together into a conversation and help both parties get both get what they want. >>And I suppose the chief digital officer fits in there too. Yeah, he fits in their CDOs. Chief Digital officer CMO. Sometimes they're all they're one and the same. Other times they're mixed. I've seen see IOS and and CDOs together. Sure, you sort of. It's all data. It's all >>day. >>Yeah, some of the roles that come into play, as as Tom mentioned. And you mentioned C I o c T. O s chief information officer, chief technology officer, chief data officer, more from the side. And then we have the CMOS chief digital officers from the marketing side. So the secret sauce that Merkel brings to the table is that we know the language, what I t speaks and what business speaks. So when we talk about the business initiatives like direct to consumer Omni Channel E commerce, those are more business driven initiatives. That's where Merkel comes in to kind of help them with our expertise over the last 30 years on on how to run these strategic initiatives. And then at the same time, how do we translate translate those strategic initiatives into it transformation because it does require a lot of idea transformation to happen underneath. That's where AWS also helps us. So we kind of span across both sides of the horizon. >>So you got data. You've got tools, you've got software. You've got expertise that now you're making that available as a as a service. That's right. How far are you into that? journey of satisfying your business. >>Well, the cloud journey started almost, I would say, 5 to 7 years ago at Merkel, >>where you started, where you began leveraging the cloud. That's right. And then the light bulb went off >>the cloud again. We use clouds in multiple aspects, from general computing perspective, leveraging fully managed services that AWS offers. So that's one aspect, which is to bring in data from disparate sources, house it, analyse it and and derive intelligence. The second piece on the cloud side is, uh, SAS, offering software as a service offerings like Adobe Salesforce and other CDP platforms. So Merkel covers a huge spectrum. When it comes to cloud and you got >>a combination, you have a consulting business and also >>so Merkel has multiple service lines. Consulting business is one of them where we can help them on how to approach these transformational initiatives and give them blueprints and roadmaps and strategy. Then we can also help them understand what the customer strategy should be, so that they can market very intelligently to their end customers. Then we have a technology business, which is all about leveraging cloud and advanced analytics. Then we have data business that data assets that I was talking about, that we monetise. We have promotions and loyalty. We have media, so we recover multiple services portfolio. >>How do you mentioned analytics a couple times? How do you tie that? Back to the to the to the sales function. I would imagine your your clients are increasingly asking for analytics so they can manage their dashboards and and make sure they're above the line. How is that evolving? Yes, >>So that's a very important line because, you know, data is data, right? You bring in the data, but what you do with the data, how you know, how you ask questions and how you derive intelligence from it? Because that's the actionable part. So a few areas I'll give you one or two examples on how those analytics kind of come into picture. Let's imagine a brand which is trying to sell a particular product or a particular service to the to a set of customers Now who those set of customers are, You know where they should target this, who their target customers are, what the demographics are that's all done through and analytics and what I gave you is a very simple example. There are so many advanced examples, you know, that come into artificial intelligence machine learning those type of aspects as well. So analytics definitely play a huge role on how these brands need to sell and personalised the offerings that they're going to offer to. The customers >>used to be really pure art, right? It's really >>not anymore. It's all data driven. Moneyball. Moneyball? >>Yes, exactly. Exactly. Maybe still a little bit of hard in there, right? It doesn't hurt. It doesn't hurt to have a little creative flair still, but you've got to go with the data. >>That's where the expertise comes in, right? That's where the experience comes in and how you take that science and combine it with the art to present it to the end customer. That's exactly you know. It's a combination, >>and we also take the time to educate our clients on how we're doing it. So it's not done in a black box, so they can learn and grow themselves where they may end up developing their own group to handle it, as opposed to outsourcing with Merkel, >>teach them how to fish. Last question. Where do you see this in 2 to 3 years. Where do you want to take it? >>I think future is Cloud AWS being the market leader. I think aws has a huge role to play. Um, we are very excited to be partners with AWS. I think it's a match made in heaven. AWS cells in, uh, majority of the sales happen in our focus is marketing. I think if we can bring both the worlds together, I think that would be a very powerful story for us to be >>good news for AWS. They little your DNA can rub off on them would be good, guys. Thanks so much for coming to the Cube. Thank you. All right. Thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volonte for the Cube Day four aws re invent. Were the Cube the global leader in high tech coverage? Right back. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

>> Welcome back to Los Angeles. The cube is live. It feels so good to say that. I'm going to say that again. The cube is alive in Los Angeles. We are a coop con cloud native con 21. Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson. We're talking to storm forge next. Cool name, right? We're going to get to the bottom of that. Please welcome Matt Provo, the founder and CEO of storm forge and Tom Ellery, the SVP of revenue storm forge, guys, welcome to the program. Thanks for having us. So storm forge, you have to say it like that. Like I feel like do you guys wear Storm trooper outfits on Halloween. >> Sometimes Storm trooper? The colors are black. You know, we hit anvils from time to time. >> I thought I, I thought they, that I saw >> Or may not be a heavy metal band that might be infringing on our name. It's all good. That's where we come from. >> I see. So you, so you started the company in 2015. Talk to me about the Genesis of the company. What were some of the gaps in the market that you saw that said we got to come in here and solve this? >> Yeah, so I was fortunate to always know. I think when you start a company, sometimes you, you know exactly the set of problems that you want to go after and potentially why you might be uniquely set up to solve it. What we knew at the beginning was we had a number of really talented data scientists. I was frustrated by the buzzwords around AI and machine learning when under the hood, this really a lot of vaporware. And so at the outset, really the, the point was build something real at the core, connect that to a set of problems that could drive value. And when we looked at really the beginnings of Kubernetes and containerization five, six years ago at its Genesis, we saw just a bunch of opportunity for machine learning, to play the right kind of role if we could build it correctly. And so at the outset it was what's going on. Why are people are people moving content workloads over to containers in the first place? And, you know, because of the flexibility and the portability around Kubernetes, we then ran into quickly its complexity. And within that complexity was really the foundation to set up the company and the solution for prob a set of problems uniquely and most beneficially solved by using machine learning. And so when we sort of brought that together and designed out some ideas, we, we did what any, any founder with a product background would do. We went and talked to a bunch of potential users and kind of tried to validate the problems themselves and, and got a really positive response. So. >> So Tom, from a business perspective, what, what attracted you to this? >> Well, initially I wasn't attracted just, I'll say that just from a startup standpoint. So I've been in the industry for 30 years, I've done six or seven pre IPO companies. I was exiting a private company. I did not want to go do another startup company, but being in the largest enterprise companies for the last 20 years, you see Kubernetes like wildfire in these places. And you knew there was huge amount of complexity and sophistication when they deployed it. So I started talking to Matt early on. He explained what they were doing and how unique the offer was around machine learning. I already knew the problems that customers had at scale with Kubernetes. So it was for me, I said, all right, I'm going to take one more run at this with Matt. I think we're, we're in a great position to differentiate ourselves. So that was really the launch pad for me, was really the technology and the market space. Those, those two things in combination are very exciting for us as a business. >> And, you know, a couple of bottles of amazing wine and a number of dinners that. >> Helps as well. >> That definitely helped twist his arm? >> Now tell us, just really kind of get into the technology. What does it do? How does it help facilitate the Kubernetes environment? >> Yeah, absolutely. So when organizations start moving workloads over to Kubernetes and get their applications up and running, there's a number of amazing organizations, whether it's through cloud providers or otherwise that that sort of solved that day one problem, those challenges. And as I was mentioning, you know, they moved because of flexibility and so developers love it and it starts to create a great experience, but there's these set of expectations. >> Where, where typically are these moving from? What you, what, what are the, what are the top three environments these are, that these are moving out of? >> Yeah. I mean, of course, non containerized environments, more generally. They could be coming from, you know, bare metal environment and it could be coming from kind of a VM driven environment. >> Okay. >> So when you look back at kind of the, the growth and Genesis and of VMs, you see a lot of parallels to what we're seeing now with, with containerization. And so as you move, it's, it's exciting. And then you get smacked in the face with the complexity, for all of the knobs that are able to be turned within a Kubernetes environment. It gives developers a lot of flexibility. These knobs, as you turn them, you have no visibility into how into the impact on the application itself. And so often organizations are become, you know, becoming more agile shipping, you know, shipping code more quickly, but then all of a sudden the, the cloud bill comes and they've, over-provisioned by 80, 90%, the, they didn't need nearly as many resources. And so what we do is we help understand the unique goals and requirements for each of the applications that are running in Kubernetes. And we have machine learning capabilities that can predict very accurately what organizations will need from a resource standpoint, in order to meet their goals, not just from a cost standpoint, but also from a performance standpoint. And so we allow organizations to typically save usually between 40 and 60% off their cloud bill and usually increased performance between 30 and 50%. Historically developers had to choose between cost and performance and their worldview on the application environment was very limited to a small set of what we would call parameters or metrics that they could choose from. And machine learning allows that world to just be blown open and not many humans are, are sophisticated in the way we think about multidimensional math to be able to make those kinds of predictions. You're talking about billions and billions of combinations, not just in a static environment, but an ongoing basis. So our technology sits in the middle of all that chaos and, and allows it to allows organizations just to re reap a whole lot of benefits that they otherwise may not ever find. >> Those numbers that you mentioned were, were big from a cost savings perspective than a performance increased perspective, which is so critical these days is in the last 18 months, we've seen so much change. We've seen massive pivots from companies in every industry to survive first of all, and then to be able to thrive and be able to iterate quickly enough to develop new products and services and get them to market to be competitive. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Sorry. I mean, the thing that's interesting, there was an article by Andreessen Horowitz. I don't know if you've taken to the cloud paradox. So we actually, if you start looking at that great example would be some of these cloud companies that are growing like astronomical rates, snowflakes, like phenomenal what they're doing, but go look at their cogs and what it's doing. Also, it's growing almost proportionately as the revenues growing. So you need to be able to solve that problem in a way that is sophisticated enough with machine learning algorithms, that people don't have to be in the loop to do it. And that the math can prove out the solution as you go out and scale your environments. And a lot of companies now are all transitioning over SAS based platforms, and they're going to start running into these problems that they go as they go to scale. And those are the areas that we're really focused and concentrating on as an organization. >> As the leader of sales, talk to me about the voice of the customer. What are some- you've been there six months or so we heard, we heard about the wine and the dinners is obvious. >> We haven't done a lot of that over the last 18 months. >> You'll have to make for lost time then >> As soon as he closes more business. >> Oh, oh there we go, we got that on camera! >> There's, there's been three, a market spaces that we've had some really good success in that. So we talked about a SAS marketplace. So there's a company that does Drupal and Matt knows very well up in Boston, Aquia. And they have every customer is a unique snowflake customer. So they need to optimize each of their customers in order to ensure the cost as well as performance for that customer on their site works appropriately. So that's one example of a SAS based company that where we can go in and help them optimize without humans doing the optimization and the math and the machine learning from storm forge doing that. So that's an area, the other area that we've seen some really good traction Cantonese with GSI. So part of our go to market model is with GSI. So if you think about what a GSI does, a lot of times customers are struggling either initially deploying Kubernetes or putting it in for 12, 18 months and realizing we're starting to scale, we got all kinds of performance issues. How do I solve it? A lot of these people go to the Accentures, the cognizance and other ones, and start flying their ninjas into kind of solve the problem. So we're getting a lot of traction with them because they're using our tool as a way to help solve the customer's problems. And they're in the largest enterprise customers as possible. >> So if I'm hearing what you're saying correctly, you're saying that when I deploy server less applications, I may in fact, get a bill for servers that are being used? Is it, is that what you're telling us? >> They're there in fact may be a bill for what was coined as server less. That is very difficult to understand, by the way, >> That's crazy talk, Matt. >> And connect back. >> Yeah. But absolutely we deal with that all the time. It's a, it's a painful process from time to time. >> Have you, have you, have you seen the statistics that's going on with how people, I mean, there was huge inertia from every CIO that you had have a cloud strategy in place. Everyone ran out and had a cloud strategy in place. And then they started deploying on Kubernetes. Now they're realizing, oh wow, we can run it, but it's costing us more than it ever costs us on prem and the operational complexity associated with that. So there's not enough people in the industry to help solve that problem, especially at the grass roots, that's where you need sophisticated solutions like storm forge and machine learning to help solve this at scale problem in a way that humans could never solve. >> And I would, I would just add to that, that the, the same humans managing the Kubernetes application environments today are likely the same humans that we're managing it in a, in a BM world. So there's a huge skills gap. I love what Castin announced at KU KU con this year around their learning environment where it's free. Come learn Kubernetes and this, and we need more of that. There's an enormous skills gap and, and the problems are complex enough in and of themselves. But when we have, when you add that to the skills gap, it it's, it presents a lot of challenges for organizations. >> What are some the ways in which you think that gap can start to be made smaller. >> Yeah. I mean, I think as more workloads get moved over, over, you know, over time, you see, you see more and more people becoming comfortable in an environment where scale is a part of what they have to manage and take care of. I love what the Linux foundation and the CNCF are doing around Kubernetes certifications, you know, more and more training. I think you're going to see training, you know, availability for more and more developers and practitioners be adopted more widely. You know, and I think that, you know, as the tool chain itself hardens within a CCD world in a containerized world, as that hardens, you're going to, you're going to start seeing more and more individuals who are comfortable across all these different tools. If you look at the CNCF landscape, I mean, today compared to four or five years ago, it's growing like crazy. And so, but, but there's also consolidation taking place within the tools. And people have an opportunity to, to learn and gain expertise within us. Which is very marketable by the way, >> Absolutely >> My employees often show me their LinkedIn profiles and remind me of how , how much they're getting recruited, but they've been loyal. So it's been a fantastic. >> Are there are so many parallels when you look at a VM in virtualization and what's happening with covers, obviously all the abstractions and stuff, but there was this whole concept of VM sprawl, you know, maybe 10 years in, if you think about the Kubernetes environment, that is exponentially bigger problem because of how many they're spitting up versus how, how many you spun up in VM. So those things ultimately need to be solved. It's not just going to be solved with people. It needs to be solved with sophisticated software. That's the only way you're going to solve a problem at scale like that. No matter how many people you have in the industry, it's just never going to solve the problem. >> So when you're in customer conversations, Tom, what are you say are like the top three differentiators that really set storm forage apart? >> Well, so the first one is we're very focused on Kubernetes only. So that's all we do is just Kubernetes environment. So we understand not just the applications that run in Kubernetes, but we understand the underlying architectures and techniques, which we think is really important. From a solution standpoint, >> So you're specialists? >> We are absolutely specialists. The other areas obviously are machine learning and the sophistication of our machine learning. And Matt said this really well, early on, I mean, the buzzwords are all out there. You can read them all up, all over the place for the last five to seven year AI and ML. And a lot of them are very hollow, but our whole foundation was based on machine learning and PhDs from Harvard. That's where we came out of from a technology background. So we were solving more, we weren't just solving the Kubernetes problems. We were solving machine learning problems. And so that's another really big area of differential for us. And I think the ability to actually scale and not just deal with small problems, but very large problems, because our focus is the fortune 2000 companies. And most of them have been deploying like financial services and stuff, Kubernetes for three, four or five years. And so they have had scale challenges that they're trying to solve. >> Yeah. It's Lisa and I talk about this concept of machine learning and looking under the covers and trying to find out is the machine really learning? Is it really learning or is it people are telling the machine, you need to do this. If you see that Where's the machine actually making those correlations and doing something intelligently. So can you give us an example of something that is actually happening that's intelligent? >> Well, so the, the, if this, then that problem is actually a huge source of my original frustration for starting the company, because you, you, you tag AI as a buzzword onto a lot of stuff. And we see that growing like crazy. And so I literally at the beginning said, if we can't actually build something real, that solves problems, like we're going to hang it up. And, you know, as Tom said, we came out of Harvard and, you know, there was a challenge initially of, are we just going to build like a really amazing algorithm? That's so heavy, it can never be productized or commercialized and it really should have just stayed in academia. And, you know, I the I, I will say a couple of things. One is I do not believe that that black box AI is a thing. We believe in what we would call human, augmented AI. So we want to empower practitioners and developers into the process instead of automate them out. We just want to give them the information and we want to save time for them and make their lives easier. But there's a kill switch on the technology. They can intervene at any point in time. They can direct the technology as they see fit. And what's really, really interesting is because their worldview of this application environment gets opened up by all the predictions and all of the learning that actually is taking place and, you know, give it because that worldview is open, they then get into a kind of a tinkering or experimental mindset with the technology. And they start thinking about all these other scenarios that they never were able to explore previously with the application. And, and so the machine learning itself is on an ongoing basis. Understanding changes in traffic, understanding and changes, changes in workloads for the application or demand. If you thought about like surge pricing for Uber, you know, because of a, a big game that took place. And you know, that, that change in peaks and valleys in demand, our, our technology not only understands those reactively, but it starts to build models and predict proactively in advance of the events that are going to take place on, on what ne- what kind of resources need to be allocated. And why that's the other piece around it is often solutions are giving you a little bit of a what, but they certainly are not giving you any explanation of the why. So the holy grail really like in our world is kind of truly explainable AI, which we're not there yet. Nobody's there yet. But human augmented AI with, with actual intelligence that's taking place that also is relevant to business outcomes is, is pretty exciting. So that's why where try to operate. >> Very exciting guys. Thanks for joining us, talking to us about storm forage, to feel like we need some store in forge. T-shirts what do you think? >> (unintelligible) >> See, I'm not even asking for the bottle of wine. I liked that idea. I thank Matt and Tom, thank you so much for joining us exciting company. Congratulations on your success. And we look forward to seeing what great things are to come from storm forage. >> Thanks so much for the time. >> Our pleasure. For Dave Nicholson. I'm Lisa Martin. We are alive in Los Angeles, the cube covering Kube con and cloud native con 21 stick around. Dave and I will be right back with our next guest.

>>mm Welcome back to the huge covered cubes coverage of VM world 2021. The virtual edition tom gillis is back on the cube. He's in S. V. P at VM ware and the GM of network and advanced security at the company. Tom. Always a pleasure to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Hey, thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure to be back here on the cube. I really enjoyed it. We've we've been, we've known each other for I don't want to count how many years but more than a few. Uh it's always an interesting conversation. >>We've had a lot of face to face interactions a couple years in a row were virtual. We'll be back together at some point. I'm >>calling. Yeah. Yeah. I'm actually on the road with customers. So it's starting to happen. >>Yeah, us too. We did uh we did public sector summit in D. C. This week. I'm heading out to Vegas next week for a show. So it is, it is starting to happen. So just a matter of time hey, >>when I start >>with with your your scope of responsibilities? Network and advanced security, you're kind of putting those two areas together. Very important. It makes sense synergistically. But how are you guys thinking about that? Maybe you could add some color. >>Yeah, sure thing. Um So network in advance security means all things security of Myanmar. So it's carbon black with our endpoint product, NsX in the data center. It's our tons of service mesh for cloud native applications to all the security stuff that goes into our anywhere workspace. Um and you know, I think you you probably get the message here dave at the end where there's three big waves that we're trying to ride. You know, multi cloud computing platform, which is our hallmark, is what we're known for running out across every cloud. It's the cloud native applications, building tools for new modern apps. And then really kind of the future of both networking and compute is being defined by this anywhere workspace. Our mission is to put security and connectivity into all of that. That makes it work. That makes it work well at scale. And so it made sense to put all that under one roof. Uh, I'm the guy and that's what we're doing. >>Yeah, you talk about that anywhere workspace, which, You know, it was always kind of a great vision and then it was somewhat aspirational, but then it became not only reality, but a mandate over the past 15, 18 months and that has that ripples through two implications on networking, even getting flatter and the security implications. So, all those things are coming together >>there really are. You know, I think we can't under estimate the profound impact that covid and the kind of work from home has had on our lives on society were still turning through what those implications are, but in networking it's cause for a fundamental rethink and for 20 years I've been doing networking and for 20 years we had this notion of a demarcation point networks defined as something that it was a DMZ, right? And, and on one side of that, TMZ was a dirty, untrusted internet, who would scary the other side is the clean, blissful corporate network where you know, only butterflies and unicorns exist and you know, wherever you were in the world, your traffic would be back hauled through that dems so that it could be scrubbed. And if you ever used tools like we're using now zoom, you know, you realize that that experience of back hauling traffic through traditional VPN is pretty simple. And so, so across the industry, enterprises are saying, you know what, there's got to be a different way instead of moving by traffic to the security services. What if I turn that upside down, That's what we're doing a VM ware, which we're taking those security services that we live in the DFc. We're doing what VM ware does well, which is defined them as software and then running them in hundreds of points of presence around the world. Hundreds. And so we effectively moved the security close to the users wherever the users are instead of the other way around. And that's the way we think we'll be building networks in a post pandemic world. >>Yeah. And that talks to the trend of this hyper decentralized system that's basically everywhere now, you know, even even out to the edge. And so, so you now have this, you know, zero trust used to be a buzzword and, and again, it's become this, this mandate. You guys actually did some, I think it was you who did some really interesting research post the solar winds hack on. Talking about things like island hopping and explaining how malware was getting in self forming and some of the insidious ways in which the, the adversaries and, and that is a function of a lot of things. The adversaries are obviously highly capable. Uh, they're motivated because it's lucrative and, and, and they keep upping the game on the good guys if you will. >>Yeah, it's nuts. But, and so so think about the impact that ransomware has had. Uh, and also to your point about the anywhere workspace. I'm right now in boston, I could, you know, tomorrow I'm going to be in texas and the day after that I'll be in san Francisco. So I'm popping all over the place, you know, we're back meeting customer's going wherever they want us to be. But wherever I am, I'm able to connect and, and my traffic needs to be protected. Now in boston it was a ransomware attack against the ferry. We're not talking about a bank or like a sophisticated, you know, sort of organization, it's a ferry that moves people from Cape Cod to an island across the water and it disrupted that ferry for days. So so at VM ware, we're measuring all the inner workings of what's happening in the data center and we collect more than eight trillion with a T eight trillion events per week and that allows us to be able to identify these anomalies like ransomware. And so just in the last 90 days we've stopped more than a million ransomware attacks. 1.1 million ransomware attacks that we stopped within six seconds, More than a million ransomware attacks in the last 90 days. To give you a sense of the magnitude of this problem it's everywhere. And you you reference Zero Trust. Zero Trust is a concept, it's a philosophy, is not a product by Zero Trust. You implement a Zero Trust model which says in a deep perimeter Rised world in a world where people like tom or hopscotch on all over the place and Dave's in boston and you know, I could be in san Francisco, we have to make the assumption that somehow some way, you know, our machine or a user has been compromised. And so you wrap each little piece of the infrastructure, each little piece of the application, you wrap it a protective armor to assume that everything around it is hostile and that's how we stop somewhere. That's how we can keep your infrastructure safe. And this is something you have and where does very uniquely because of the intrinsic attributes of our platform, our virtualization platform and our multi cloud platform. >>Yeah. You talk about the ferry anybody who's ever taken the ferry to Nantucket knows it's a pretty low tech operation and when that ferry goes down, it's one thing, it's, it's whether you can kind of understand that but people's lives get ruined, their vacations get ruined, they can't get off the island. Commerce comes to a grinding halt. It's extremely, extremely expensive really. >>For days, >>for days it was >>Like it wasn't a 20 minute outage. You know, it was like a fairy is not running for a couple things like that. That is a huge, huge, very high impact thing. And the fact that it was so pedestrian, like they don't have billions of dollars in the bank and you know, sort of super secret defense technologies, it's a ferry, you know, right, come on rental cars everywhere. So everywhere >>talk about your software approach two networking and security a little bit more. How that changes the experience for organizations generally, and developers specifically. >>So in a multi cloud world you can't always count on having physical infrastructure that you can touch. And in fact, do you really want to touch that stuff. And so our idea is that if you think about infrastructure, its job is to support the needs of the application. And so for example, in Kubernetes, we have the ability for developers say, look, here's my cool new application and this peace talks to this peace talks to this piece and nothing else. And so we can implement those types of controls using what we call a service smash, which allows us to, to make those connections smooth and seamless across clouds. Some of it could run on amazon, some of them could be running in a private cloud infrastructure. Some of them could be running in the traditional VM and in fact many complication applications do just that. So we can facilitate that communication back and forth and we have the ability to look for stuff that you just never happened because when you understand how an application is supposed to work, it allows you to spot, hey, wait a minute. That's not right. That's that, that's that, that don't like someone trying to manipulate the ferry system rather than somebody trying to board the ferry and get off. And I think, you know, there's a really interesting observation here, which is when you, when you, if you can see the inner workings of an application, like it looks for example, let's think about a mortgage payment application filed, a mortgage payment application and the Attackers has stolen a credential. They're going to get in. It's really hard to figure out a friend from foe. But once they get into mortgage payment application, I'm not going to pay my mortgage right? They do crazy anomalous things like wildly anomalous things. If you can see them, you can stop them and we have the unique ability to see them because we put the telemetry, the observation into our virtualization platform that runs on every cloud that runs wherever the user is. Right and pulling all that together into a central issue. That's something I think the N word to do uniquely and this is why we're having such success insecurity. >>I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about securing containers. You just sort of reference that but containers are moving target just a few short years ago, containers are ephemeral. You weren't you weren't gonna be running you know, your mission critical or business critical postgres in containers. But now that's changed. You're getting state. But so that's a moving target. How are you thinking about handling? You know, those kind of changes And what about the architecture allows you to be kind of future proof if you will. Sorry to use that >>word? No, no, it's a good question. So you've articulated right. So if you think about a traditional application, we used to always talk about three tiered web app, there's a web server is app server and the database a little more complicated than that. But you can usually go in and you could touch those three tiers. This box is the web tier. This box step here. This big box, is that it. And so security controls were built around this idea that you could you could wrap that relatively easily. We talk about a container based application And all these microservices. It's not three tiers anymore. It's 300 tears or maybe 3000 tears. Bitty little things, these little services that turn up and turn down and they all have a piece and so our view is that the A P is the new endpoint, the ap is where the action happens and not just the ap that faces the internet but all the inner workings, all the internal apps. And so because we put that application together, because we help the developers create those apaches, we have a unique understanding of how those apps are used and we're just introducing the ability to provide visibility around how are these epi is being used and then we can do anomaly detection and we are seeing a whole new set of attacks that are using legitimate apiece. They're not appease that are that are that are broken or malformed but the Attackers are finding ways to extract data from an API that maybe they shouldn't remember some of the facebook stuff where they had these Attackers were profiling users and there's no limit to how they could profile users and they were just expecting huge amounts of data that's an ap breach. These are the kind of problems that we can solve for our customers with these built in Tan Xue uh service mesh and api security controls >>you think about all these trends we're talking about and I want to ask you about how it's affected go to market because kind of the old days you had box sellers, they, you know, they would integrate VM ware or whatever. They you might have a specialist that was really good at ST for instance, S. A. P. And they were good partners. So that kind of value add developers have become a new channel for you and I wonder how you think about that, how they're now influencing their go to market. >>Yeah, that's that's a clear trend in the industry are absolutely right on, we call it moving left, right. So it's getting earlier and earlier in the development process. And so one of the things that renouncing at the show here is that the tons of community edition that makes it super easy for developers without putting down a credit card or making a big expensive commitment. They can start using these tools and get productive right away. And so so on top of that we build security controls that understand the total life cycle. So as the developers writing code, we're checking that code to make sure is this compliant doesn't have any known vulnerabilities. This is gonna break something. If you if you put it out there and then when you go to hit commit and say, all right, I'm ready to go, we've already done the homework to make sure the code is clean, we'll put it in the right place. So placing it into production in a way that is wrapped with the security that it needs the guardrails are in place and now we have this this X ray vision, this ability to look at the inner workings and understand the Ap is what's happening inside the application and identify anomalies. And lastly, once the thing is up and running we actually have the ability to measure we called posture and make sure that it doesn't drift from its intended configuration. All of this is done across every cloud. So this is, this is how we think we have a kind of new and very holistic approach to securing collaborative applications. >>Tom I want to ask you about telco transformation, I mean N F V kind of just barely scratched the surface in my view and now we're seeing with the edge and five G and the cloud there's some oh ransom. Really interesting opportunities going on in in telco say what you want about telcos? Yeah, there, you know the connectivity and Okay, fine. But one thing you say about the telco networks as they work, you know, and it actually did a great job during the pandemic. They had to pivot to landlines and and so when it comes to reliability and rock solid nous, those guys kinda kinda get it but they've got to be more flexible. So you see those two worlds colliding what's going on in in telco and and where does VM ware play? >>Yeah, sure thing. A huge amount of emphasis on telco, we've won some very large telco deals. Five G is not just a faster version of four G. 5G is a new take on what an edge network can do. It has the ability to run extremely high performance network connections and the ability to control the performance. So this idea of what's called network slicing, so you can guarantee a certain amount of latency or a certain amount of bandwidth. So combine that with this explosion of IOT devices. We're going to have an infinite number of devices. Every device you can imagine has a computer in it and it's spitting off giant amounts of data. We keep coming up with new and interesting ways to analyze that data to do things like, you know, control the self driving car to do things like create a customized retail experience to do things like help guide research for an oil company on the oil platform. Okay. These are all examples of edge computing. Now, the infrastructure that you need to protect those workloads is what we're defining and software. And putting it everywhere, Not just in the traditional data center where you might be in 1020 locations, we're talking about hundreds going into thousands of locations. And this is what the industry is calling sassy or secure access services. Edge. So where's your firewall? Your web proxy the controls that you need to protect those apps, where do they live? They're gonna live in the telco infrastructure And that stuff all runs on X 86 servers. So if you put in the data center services into this distributed architecture and you've got tons and tons of data that's being produced produced locally. Why would you want to remove the compute there and we think you can and will and this is this is why VM ware with our telco partners is uniquely suited to build the groundwork for this edge computing infrastructure. And I think edge computing is going to be the next big wave. So we went from private clouds to public clouds and public cloud was built on, you know, the scale out fault tolerant model as we move to edge computing, edge computing is going to be around applications that need huge amounts of data, very low latency and they're highly distributed. So they're going to run not in 10 or 20 locations but in 1000 more. And we can do all of this with our tons of kubernetes with our virtual networking infrastructure and our anywhere workspace and the secure access services, Edge, the pops that we're building and I think VM ware is probably one of the few if any companies that have all of these pieces that we can put together to make the Edge actually work. >>Yeah, exciting times and and all that data ai influencing at the edge of new processor models and you guys are thinking about all that stuff tom we got to leave it there. Thanks so much for coming back in the queue. Great conversation. >>Always a pleasure. Thanks very much. David, Take care >>Alright you to keep it right there, everybody. This is Dave Volonte. For the Cubes coverage of VM World 2021. The virtual edition will be right back.