(cheerful music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE's coverage of AnsibleFest 2021, with Red Hat. Topic of this power panel is the future of automation, we've got a great lineup of CUBE alumni, Joe Fitzgerald, vice president, general manager of the Red Hat business unit, thanks for coming on, Tom Anderson, vice president, product manager of Red Hat, and Alessandro Perilli, the senior director of product market at Red, all good CUBE alumni. Distinct power panel, Joe we'll start out with you, what have you seen in automation game right now, 'cause it continues to evolve. I mean you can't go to an event, a virtual event, or read anything online without hearing AI automation, automation hybrid, automation hybrid hybrid hybrid hybrid, I mean automation is the top conversation in almost all verticals. What do you see happening right now? >> Yeah, it's sort of amazing, you know? Automation is quite fashionable these days, as you pointed out. Automation's always been on the radar of a lot of enterprises, and I think it was always perceived as sort of like that, an efficiency, a task model thing, that people did. Now automation is, if you believe some of the analysts, it's up to a board room imperative in some cases. So we are seeing with our customers that the level of complexity they're dealing with, particularly exaggerated by what's gone past year and a half in the world, is putting a tremendous amount of pressure, attention and importance on automation. So automation's definitely one of the busiest places to be right now. >> What's the big change this year, though? I mean we love the automation conversation, we had it last year a lot too, as well. What's the change, what's the trend right now that's driving this next level automation conversation with customers? >> Well, I'll ask my colleagues to comment on that in a second, but, the challenges here with automation, is people are constrained now, they can't access facilities as easy as they used to be able to. They still need to go fast, some businesses have had to expand dramatically, and introduce new services to handle all sorts of new scenarios, they've had to deploy things faster. Security, not a week goes by you don't read about something going on regarding security and breaches and hacking and things like that, so they're trying to secure things as fast as possible, right, and deploy critical fixes and patches and things like that. So there's just tremendous amount of activity, that's really been exaggerated by what's gone on over the past year. >> And all of this is being compounded with a nature of increasing complexity, that we're seeing in the architecture, explosion microservices, the adoption en masse of containers, and the adoption of multiple clouds for most customers around the world. So really, the extension of the IT environment, especially for large enterprises, enormous for any team, no matter how big it is, so how scale it is, to really go after and look for all the systems, and then the complexity of the architectures, is enormous within that IT environment. It is impossible to scale the applications and to scale the infrastructure, and not scale the IT operations. And so automation becomes really a way to scale IT operations, rather than just keep repeating the same steps over and over, in an attempt to simplify, or to reduce costs. It's well beyond that at this point. >> That's a great point. Tom, what's your reaction to this, because Alessandro brings up a good point, developers are going faster than ever before. The changes of speed and complexity have gone up, so the demand for the IT and/or security groups, or anyone, to be faster, not weeks, minutes. We're talking about a complete time shift here. >> Yeah, so I talk to a lot of customers, and what I keep hearing again and again from them is kind of two things, which is, a need for skills, and reskilling existing staff. When Alessandro talks about the complexity and the scale, think about all the different new tools, new environments, new platforms that these employees and these associates are being exposed to and expected to be able to handle. So, a real, not a skill shortage, but a stress on the skills of the organization. And then secondly, really, our customers are talking to us about the culture in the environment itself, the culture of collaboration, the culture of automation, and the kind of impact that has in our organization, the way teams are now expected to work together, to share information, to share automation, to push, you know, we talk about shifting left in a lot of things now in IT, automation is now shifting left, pushing automation and access to subsystems, IT subsystems and resources, into the hands of people who traditionally haven't had direct access to those resources. So really kind of shift in skills, and a shift in culture I see. >> Ah, the culture. (indistinct), I want to come back to that culture thing, but I want to ask you specifically on that point, do you think automation users still view automation as just repeating and simplifying processes that they already are doing? You've heard the term, "Done it three times, automate it." Is that definition changing and evolving, what's your thoughts? >> Yeah, IT is really changing, going from the traditional, "I'm a network engineer and I use a command line to update my devices I'm responsible for, the config devices, and then I decide to write a playbook using a really cool product like Ansible to drive automation into my daily tasks." And then it comes up to exposing, again, exposing that subsystem I'm responsible for, whatever it is, storage, network, compute, whatever it is, exposing that op so other people can consume it without me being involved, right? So that's a real change in a mindset, and tooling, and approach, that I'm going to expose that op to a set of workflows, business workflows, that drive automation throughout an organization. So that's a real kind of evolution of automation, (indistinct) first, and that's usually focused mostly on day zero, provisioning of a new service. Now we see a lot more focus, or a lot of additional focus on day two operations. How do I automate my day two operations to make them a lot more efficient, as my scale and complexity grows? How do I take the human element out of operating this on a day to day basis? >> So you're saying basically, if I understand you correctly, the system's architecture view, or mindset, around automation, it moves from "Hey, I'm going to use," and Ansible by the way is great for "Hey, I want to automate something, I'm doing a lot," that's cool. But you're looking at it differently. If I understand you correctly, you're saying the automation has to be a system view, meaning you create the rules of the road so that automation can happen at the front lines of the CICD pipeline. You mentioned shift left, is that the difference, is that kind of what's happening here, that's beyond just doing automation, because you can automate it, so you've done that, this is like the next level, is that what you're getting at? >> It is, and we joke about it a little bit, crushing silos, right? Breaking down silos, and again, I keep talking about culture, it really is important, tools are important and technology's important, but the culture's super important, and trying to think of that thing from a systems mindset, of sort of workflows and orchestration of a business process that touches IT components, and how do I automate that and expose that to that workflow, without a human having to touch it, right? Yet still enforce my security protocols, my performance expectations, my compliance stuff, all of that stuff still needs to be enforced, and that's where repeatable automation comes in, of being able to expose this stuff up into these system-level workflows. >> And then there is another element to this (indistinct), I think it's really important to attach to this, the element of speed. We talk about complexity, we talk about scale, but then there is this emerging third dimension, as I call it, that is the speed. And the speed has a number of different articulation, it's the speed when you're thinking about how quickly you need to deliver the application. If you're in a very competitive environment, think about web scale startups for example, or companies in an emerging market, and then you have the speed in terms of reacting to a cybersecurity attack, which Tom just mentioned. And then you have the third kind of speed I'm thinking about right now, which is the increasing amount of artificial intelligence, so an algorithmic kind of operation that is taking place in the organization. For now it's still very limited, but it's not unthinkable that going forward, the operations will be driven, or at least assisted by artificial intelligence. This speed, just like the scale and the complexity we mentioned before, are impossible to be addressed by a single team, and so automation becomes indispensable. >> Yeah, that's a great point, I want to just double click on that, I mean both Tom and Joe were just talking about system, they used the word system. In a subsystem, if one is going faster than the other, to your point, there's a bottleneck there. So if the IT group or security groups are going to take time to approve things, they're not putting rules to the road together to automate and help developers be faster, because look, it's clear, we've been reporting on this in theCUBE, cloud developers are fast. They're moving really fast with code. And so what happens is, if they're going to shift left, that means they're going to be at the point of coding to set policies on security. So, that's going to put pressure on the other subsystems to go faster, so they have to then expose rules of the road, or I'm just making that up, but policy base, or have some systems thinking. They can't just be the old way of saying "No, slow it down." So this is a cultural thing, I think Joe, you brought up culture, Alessandro, you brought up culture. Is that still there? That speed, fast team here and a slow team here? Is that still around, or people getting faster on both sides? And I'm kind of talking about IT, generally speaking, they tend to be slower than the developers. >> Well, just a couple comments, first of all, you heard silos, you heard complexity, you heard speed, talked about shift left. Let me sort of maybe tie those together, right? What's happened to date is every silo has their own set of tooling, right? And so one silo might move very fast, with a very private set of tools, or network management, or security, or whatever, right? And if you think about it, one of the number one skills gaps right now is for automation people. But if an automation person has to learn 17 different tools, 'cause I'm running on three public clouds, I'm on-premise, edge, and I'm doing things to move network storage, compute, security, all sorts of different systems, the tooling is so complicated, right, that I end up with a bunch of specialists. Which can only do one or two things, because they don't know the other domains and they don't know the skills. One of the things we've seen from our customers, I think this is a fundamental shift in automation, is that what we've done with Ansible in particular is, we actually adopted Ansible because of its simplicity. It's actually human-readable, you don't have to be a hardcore programmer to write automation. So that allows the emergence of citizen creators of automation. There's not like a group in some ivory tower that now can make automation and they do it for the masses. Individuals can now use Ansible to create automation. Going cross-domain, Ansible automation touches networks, security, storage, compute, cloud, edge, Linux, Windows, containers, traditional, ITSM, it touches so many systems, that basically what you have is you have a set of power tooling, in Ansible, that allows you now to share automation across teams, 'cause they speak the same language, right? And that's how you go faster. If every silo is fast, but when you have to go inter-silo you slow down, or have to open a ticket, or have some (indistinct) mismatch, it causes delays, errors, and exposures. >> I think that is a very key point, I mean that delay of opening up tickets, not being responsive, Alessandro, you put up machine learning and AI, I mean if you think about what that could do from an automation standpoint, if you can publish the HIPAA rules for your healthcare, you can just traverse that with a bot, right? I mean this is the new... This just saves so much time, why even open up a ticket? So if you can shift left and do the security, and there's kind of rules there, this is a trend, how do you make that happen, how do you bust the silos, and I guess that's the question I'd love to get everyone to react to, because that implies some sort of horizontally scalable control plane. How does someone do that in an architectural way, that doesn't really kind of, maybe break everything, or make the (indistinct) go into a cultural sideways situation? >> Maybe I can jump in, and grab this one, and then maybe ask Alessandro to weigh in afterwards, but, what we've seen and what you'll see some of the speakers at AnsibleFest this year talk about, from a cultural perspective is bringing teams together across automation guilds, JPMC calls it a community of practice, where they're bringing hundreds and thousands of individuals in the organization together virtually, into these teams that share best practices, and processes and automation that they've created. Secondly, and this is a little bit of a shameless plug for Ansible, which is having a common language, a common automation language across these teams, so that sharing becomes obviously a lot easier when you're using the same language. And then thirdly, what we see a lot now is people treating automation as code. Storing that, and get version managing and version controlling and checking in, checking out, really thinking of automation differently from an individual writing a script, to this being infrastructure or whatever my subsystem is, managed it and automated it as code, and thinking of themselves as people responsible for code. >> These are all great points. I think that on top of all these things, there is an additional element which is change management. You cannot count on technology alone to change something that is purely cultural, as we kept saying during this video right now. So, I believe that a key element to win, to succeed in an automation project, is to couple the technology, great technology, easy to understand, able to become the common language as Tom just said, with an effort in change management that starts from the top. It's something you don't see very often because a technology vendor rarely works with a more consulting firm, but it's definitely an area that I think would be very interesting to explore for our customers. >> That's a great point on the change management, but let me ask you, what do you think it needs to make automation more frictionless for users, what do you see that needs to happen, Alessandro? >> I think there are at least a couple of elements that need to change. The first one is that, the effort that we're seeing right now in the industry, to further democratize the capability to automate has to go one notch further. And by that I mean, implementing cell service provisioning portals and ways for automatically execute an automation workflow that already exists, so that an end user, somebody that works in the line of business, and doesn't understand necessarily what the automation workflow, the script is doing, still able to use it, to consume it when it, she or he needs to use it. This is the first element, and then the second element that is definitely more ambitious, is about the language, about how do I actually write the automation workflow? This is a key problem. It's true that some automation engines and some workflows have done, historically speaking, a better job than others, in simplifying the way we write automation workflows, and definitely this is much simpler than writing code with a programming language, and it's simpler than writing automation compared to a tool that we use 10, 15 years ago. But still, there is a certain amount of complexity, because you need to understand how to write in a way that the automation framework understands, and you need even before that, you need to express what you want to achieve, and in a way that the automation engine understands. So, I'm thinking that going forward we'll start to see artificial intelligence being applied to this problem, in a way that's very similar to what OpenAI Microsoft are doing with Codex, the capability that is a model that allows a person to write in plain English through a comment in code, to translate that comment into actual code, taken from GitHub or through the machine learning process that's been done. I'm really thinking that going forward, we will start to see some effort in the same direction, but applied to automation. What if the AI could assist us, not replace us, in writing the automation workflow so that more people are capable to translating what they want to achieve, in a way that is automatable? >> So you're saying the language, making it easy to program, or write, or create. Being a creator of automation. And then having that be available as code, with other code, so there's kind of this new paradigm of automating the automation. >> In a sense, this is absolutely true, yes. >> In addition to that, John, I think there's another dimension here which is often overlooked, which we do spend a lot of time on. It's one thing to have things like Alessandro mentioned, that are front edge in terms of helping you write code, but you want to know something? In big organizations, a lot of times what we find is, someone's already written the code that you need. You know what the problem is? You don't know about it, you can't find it, you can't share it and you can't collaborate on it, so the best code is something that somebody's already invested the time to write, test, burn in, certify, what if they could share it, and what if people could find it, and then reuse it? Right, everybody's talking about low code, no code, well, reuse is the best, right? Because you've already invested expertise into doing it. So we've spent a lot of time working with our customers based on their feedback, on building the tools necessary for them to share automation, to collaborate on it, certify it, and also to create that supply chain from partners who create integrations and interfaces to their systems, and to be able to share that content through the supply chain out to our customers and have them be able to share automation across very large globally distributed organizations. Very powerful. >> That's a powerful point, I mean reuse, leverage there, is phenomenal. Discovery engine's got to be built. You got to know, I mean someone's got to build a search engine for the code. "Hey code, who's written some code?" But just a whole 'nother mindset, so this brings up my next question for you guys, 'cause this is really, we're teasing out the biggest things coming next in automation. These are all great points, they're all about the future, where will the puck be, let's skate to where the puck will be, but it's computer science and automation that's being democratized and opened up more, so it's, what do you guys think is the biggest thing coming next for automation? >> Joe, you want to go next? >> Sure. Sure. Yeah, I'll take it. So we're getting a glimpse of that with a number of customers right now that we're working with that are doing things around concepts like self-healing infrastructures. Well what the heck is that? Basically, it's tying event systems, and AI, which is looking at what's going on in an environment, and deciding that something is broken, sub-optimal, spending too much, there's some issue that needs to be dealt with. In the old days, it was, that system would stop with opening a ticket, dispatch some people who were either manually or semi-automated go fix their whatever. Now people are connecting these systems and saying "Wait a minute. I've got all this rich data coming through my eventing systems. I can make some sense out of it with AI or machine learning. Then I can drive automation, I just eliminated a whole bunch of people, time, exposure, cost, everything else." So I think that, sort of a ventureman automation is going to be huge. I'm going to argue that every single system in the world that uses AI, the result of that's going to be, I want to go do something, I want to change, optimize my move, secure, stop, start, relocate, how's that going to get done? It's going to get done with automation. >> And what Joe just said is really highly successful in the consumer space. If you think about solutions like If This Then That, or Zapier for example, those are examples of event-driven automation. They've been in the consumer space for a long time, and they are wildly popular to the point that there are dozens of clones and competitors. The enterprise space, it didn't adopt the same approach so far, but we start to see event bridges, and event hubs that can really help with this. And this really connects to the previous point, at this point I'm a broken record, which is about the speed and the complexity. If the environment is so spread out, so complex, and it goes all the way to the edge, and all these events take place at a neck-breaking pace, the only way for you is to tie the automation workflows that you have written, to a trigger, an event that takes place at some point, according to your logic. >> Tom, what are your thoughts? >> Yeah, last but not least on that kind of thread, which is sort of the architectures as we get out to the edge, what does it take to automate things at the edge? We thought there was a big jump from data center to cloud, and now when you start extending that out to the edge, am I going to need a new automation platform to handle those edge devices? Will I need a new language, will I need a new team, or can I connect these things together using a common platform to develop the automate at the edge? And I think that's where we see some of our customers moving now, which is automating those edge environments which have become critical to their business. >> Awesome, I want to ask one final question while I've got you guys here in this power panel, great insights here. Operational complexity was mentioned, skills gap was mentioned earlier, I want to ask you guys about the organizational behavior and dynamic going on with this change. Automation, hybrid, multi-cloud, all happening. When you start getting into speed of application development for the modern app, opensource where things are opening up and things are going to be democratized with automation and code and writing automation, and scaling that, you're going to have a cultural battle that's happening, and we're kind of seeing it play out in real time. DevOps has kind of gone and been successful, and we're seeing cloud-native bring new innovation, people are refactoring their business models with cloud technologies, now the edge is here, so this idea of speed, shifting left, from a developer standpoint, is putting pressure on the old, incumbent systems, like the security group, or the IT group that's still holding onto their ticketing system, and they're slower, they're getting requests, and the developer's like "Okay, go faster, I want this done faster." So we're seeing departments reorganizing. What do you guys see, 'cause Red Hat, you guys have been in there, all these big accounts for the generation of this modern era. What's the cultural dynamics happening, and what can companies do to be successful, to get to the next level? >> So I think for us, John, we certainly see it and we experience it, across thousands of customers, and what we've done as an organization is put together adoption journeys, a consulting engagement for our customers around an automation adoption journey, and that isn't just about the technology, it's all throughout that technology, it's about those cultural things, thinking differently about the way I automate and the way I share, and the way I do these tasks. So it's as much about cultural and process as it is about technology. And our customers are asking us for that help. Red Hat, you have thousands of customers that are using this product, surely you can come and tell us how we can achieve more with automation, how can we break down these silos, how can we move faster, and so we've put together these offerings, both directly as well as with our partners, to try and help these customers kind of get over that cultural hump. >> Awesome. Anyone else want to react to the cultural shift and dynamics and how it can play out in a positive way? >> Yeah, I think that it's a huge issue. We always talk about people, processes, and technology. Well the people issue's a really big deal here. We're seeing customers, huge organizations, with really capable teams building apps and services and infrastructures, saying "Help me think about automation in a new way." The old days, it was "Hey, I'm thinking about it as a cost savings thing." Yeah, there's still cost savings in there. To your point, John, now they're talking about speed, and security, and things like that. How fast, zero day exploits, now it's like zero hour exploits. How fast can I think about securing something? You know, time to heal, time to secure, time to optimize, so people are asking us, "What are the best practices? What is the best way to look at what I've got, my automation deficits," used to have tech deficits, now you got automation deficits, right? "What do I need to do culturally?" It's very similar to what happened with DevOps, right? Getting teams to get together and think about it differently and holistically, that same sort of transition is happening, and we're helping customers do that, 'cause we're talking to a lot of them where you've got the scholars have been through it. >> Awesome. Alessandro, your thoughts on this issue. >> I think that what Tom and Joe just said is going to further aggravate, it's going to happen more and more going forward, and there is a reason for that. And this connects back with the skill problem, that we discussed before. In the last 10 years, I've seen growing demand for developers to become experts in a lot of areas that have nothing to do with development, code development. They had to become experts in cloud infrastructures, they had to become experts in security because, you've probably heard this many times, security's everybody's responsibility. Now they've been asked to become experts in artificial intelligence, transforming their title into something like ML engineer. The amount of skills and disciplines that they need to master, alone, by themself, would require a lifetime of work. And we're asking human beings to get better and better at all of these things, and all of the best practice. It's absolutely impossible. And so the only way for them, yeah, five jobs in one, six jobs in one, right? Probably for the same seller, and the only way that these people can execute the best practice, enforce the best practice, if the best practices are encoded in automation workflow, not necessarily written by them, but by somebody else, and execute them at the right time, the right context, and for the right reason. >> It's like the five tool player in baseball, you got to do five different things, I mean this is, you got to do AI, you got to do machine learning, you got to have access to all the data, you got to do all these different things. This is the future of automation, and automation's critical. I've never heard that term, automation deficit or automation debt, we used to talk about tech debt, but I think automation is so important because the only way to go fast is to have automation, kind of at the center of it. This is a huge, huge topic. Thank you very much for coming on, power panel on the future of automation, Joe, Tom, Alessandro from Red Hat, thanks for coming on, everyone, really appreciate the insight, great conversation. >> Thanks, John. >> 'Kay, this is theCUBE's coverage of AnsibleFest 2021 virtual. This is theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, your host, thanks for watching. (calm music)

>> live from Mountain View, California. It's the queue covering definite create twenty nineteen. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Hi. Welcome to the Qi of Lisa Martin. John Barrier. Day two of our coverage on the Cube. Cisco Definite create twenty nineteen. Very excited to welcome to the Cube, one of this year's definite creator awards way. Have Andhra Alert Digital automation practice manager from Dimension Data under It's wonderful to have you join us. >> Hi. Thanks for having me. >> So, congratulations. This is breaking news for everybody, including you. You had just won the Definite Creator Award. Tell us about now you're feeling since you just got that news. >> Well, in the same time, I feel excited. I feel honored and I feel so humble. It's a bigger word to win. And I'm very proud that I can bring this. There's a way back home to my my company. >> Did they tell you this is only the second year that they've given out these awards? Did it tell you some of the criteria? Because obviously you were selected and were surprised. Just learned up today. Pretty cool surprise to happen. Did they give you in context about who they're looking for you, Like your activity in the definite community and things like that. It's a little bit about that >> exactly. So they're looking for the people who are having a great impact and more great advocates of definite outside of the Siskel world. So when they're going to clients and where they're going to the developer community in the different countries so they're looking for advocates, they're also looking for people who are great contributors to the network. So if you have some very nice code examples and you're posting them on the Codex and so they had a couple of pretty is that they're following. >> And how long have you been an active member of the definite community? >> I'm quite the veteran. I've been there since the very beginning of the definite. So I before even the release, I already got reviewed the information that something in this direction we'LL come. And then I was there from the very beginning, The journey continued with being there at the first definite express event being now, for example, here definite create a last year, I've organized the first different express event at the partner so together in my company with the mission. Later, we're organized the first definite expressive end in the front foot where we have invited clients but also a lot of people from our engineering teams. So quite the fantastic journeys. And now with with definite and I'm happy >> that time there since so early what's been the >> reaction so far too definite growth and change? What's the biggest surprise or notable change with definite community? >> There are a couple of things were changing. So inside the company, for example, with the adoption of definite and with people going very often on definitely have seen a different style of learning. So engineers now have a different way of how do I approach learning? Where do I go if I need to find something and another change is related to how people interact with each other? Because, yeah, you know, like the network engineer was there, he was doing very cool. His staff, maybe sometimes he was also sharing, but definite the entire opened. This is now standard, so people are sharing between them. Colleagues are also taking on in even internal social media like yammer and the posting. Hey, look, I've done this cool stuff and it's only like a lot of it. It's also thanks to definite, because it brought a little bit a new style of things. >> And they bring definite create, which is gonna cloud native kind of mindset. How has that gone over with network engineers being coding? Python machine learning, Iraqi new things are coming. >> So they're all on the transformation path, and our company's doing a lot of activities in this direction. We've had, For example, last year, our, um Wei have ah, very good advocate for coding on the mission leader. His name is Anthony Shaw. He had last year an entire initiative running learned to code on. So we had colleagues from all over the company independently of the department you work from, which started to code, right? So we had way had them learning how to code. And then this is basically the very bay a fundament on you can refuse. Start afterwards with learning pets in the definite. So it's quite a transformation. And I would say that it's a nice joining Toby. And >> how have you guys? The gentleman that you just mentioned on yourself is, as you described a veteran of the definite community. How have you guys may be influenced to mention data to really fully embrace Death Net and the path >> I think that are, too, too big ways in which this has been done. So on one hand, Anthony show with his very successful initiative, this has brought the transformation from the learning side. And on the other hand, by starting to have skills, we have brought out the news through our clients. And so this has impacted the business. And when the business is impacting and when you show a business value by using automation by using the net or program ability, then the entire company is aware. And this is how afterwards way started to okay. We really embraced >> the challenge, really sort of changing the culture of dimension data in a good way. >> Yes, I wouldn't say it's It's totally changing, but we see that way are very easily adapting to the new way. Talk about >> the automation peace. What do you do in your day to day job? Take us through a day in the life of what you're doing with the cool things you do. Struggles, challenges, opportunities. What's the fun stuff? What's the not so fun stuff that software's automating away. >> Okay, very nice. So on one hand, on the day to day basis, we analyzed with our clients what they're doing, and we are coming with suggestions where they could be faster. And also we're coming with suggestions where they could reduce errors and someone. So basically, we go. We talkto our clients. We're coming back with the problems they have with prepare for them a solution, then afterwards. The solution. It's mainly based on using AP eyes. Scrapie eyes are also amongst our favorite. Once we are presenting the solution than the clients are saying, Yes, it's something I would like to have in my network or no, it's something I don't want. Then, once the clients are happy with the solution that we're proposing them, then we start developing were developing in the Angel methodology, so very close touch with the client failed fast and improved and have a very inter way of doing things afterwards. Once the project is done, you know, we continue improving what we have with the customer with the clients and continuing are joining from there. This is part of what a day in a software engineering department looks like or like in a native ox engineering department looks on top of this. We need all the time to take care of best practices. How do we called? We need to take care of being security compliance, like working in Europe. You know, we have a lot of rules regulations that we need to respect, and we are of some of these rules and tradition. We have very proud that they are there and they're there to protect us and to protect the data which somethings belongs to us. So this is also a topic that way are working on day today. Afterwards were also working a lot and improving our skills. We're having a weekly making learn, for example, where someone is waiting to take someone else's. Presenting the technical topic. So it's it's an entire process and these are all the people that were running on the day today. >> You know, one of the big trends wass going back ten years, Dev Ups Infrastructure is code Great great great trend now Net Dev ups you mentioned that term is about Dev ops applied networking. That's a big theme of definite definite creators. Programmable networks. What does that mean to you? People say Net devil. >> It means a lot. It's very close to my heart. It's also the topic of my presentation later. Today. I have a speaker's not a tech talk in another works A lot of people might think. OK, it's just network continuous. We're writing something. One script in the network. Well, it's not just that. It's a lot of components. It's also about the culture. It's about the people. It's about the process. You're involving. It's about what tools you're using me. The entire net evolves is really close to my heart because it's an entire mindset, which is which needs >> to learn about it. What they where should they go to learn about? Net Dev ops. Sorry, Where should people go to learn about Do Net? De Bob's what it is. >> It's a very, very good entry point. It's the definite right. You have there a lot off learning labs you have the sandbox is yours. Have tracks can go from there and of course you can. You go online, you have a lot of courses. You have a lot of bloggers. You have a lot of you for answers. Were posting about what's what's going on and what you should adapt in your network. Uh, then, yes, you can also use some books. There are also some nice books there, of course, and tow the attention because by the time a book is released, maybe that information could be different. Created, you know, like it runs quite fast. Definitely, definitely. One of the sexual >> organ is your personal question. What's the coolest thing that's going on here? A definite create or within the industry that you're excited about? >> Um, machine learning and artificial intelligence is definitely something that I want Teo to keep an eye on it where I'm running a couple of small tests. It will definitely change the way we see the world. And it'LL also define what our kids will further learn because now you see, like we, we are used to a certain way of learning, which is their since maybe two hundred years, this will have, like motion learning and artificial intelligence. We have such a big impact on everything with you that it will maybe be overwhelming. So it's a very interesting point that I'm following here. The difference Creator. Very nice talks, >> and you've got to get the data to get the machine learning any data? Murat, He's got great wireless WiFi sixes here. I ot looking good. A lot of activity. >> Yes, it is indeed a lot of activity, and I'd like to believe that data is somehow. Then you go though the new petroleo s o having a handle, the data and something that valuable indeed. >> How you found if we look at you know that the participants that air here, we've got, you know, developers, infrastructure, folks who were moving towards adopting De Bob's kind of connecting them with the app developers. How have you seen people change? Job roles change as, uh, these other folks are adopting develops. Especially now that you're talking about bringing in the network. That's how Have you seen roles change and how has your job in particular changed and advance and evolved with practice of Net Dev >> ops. So I was starting the first part of your question. Rolls have indeed changed a lot. And this also I can see in the moment when we try to recruit because there is no profile out there that say okay, I want to recruit another bobs. You will not find on the market native ops of already built as a professor, you need thio recruit people when you see the potential and try to bring thiss new colleagues into the Net evolves journey. So this is one part on how Rosa revolving and then very direct to myself on my career has evolved. I think it's very linked to how the entire definite community has evolved. I've started five years ago the mission it and it was my first. A big job in Germany on my career has evolved in a very rapid way. So I went from technology associate system Engineer is an engineer leading a team off softer with leather box engineers. And now I'm since a couple of weeks speaking for the Europe region, a dimension data to advocate and to create a strategy for Ned a box a za practice. >> So what would you recommend to the younger generation gets your saying that we can't hire for someone that has no develops experience. What are some of the skills, maybe even some of the softer skills, like being a good collaborator, being a good communicator, that you would recommend that the younger generation really fine tune in addition to their technology expertise that you think this is going to make someone really gets this this role and can help really transform it. >> So I think outside of all the technical skills so they can acquire in terms of OK, programming, networking and someone, there are two big soft skills that they should have. And in my opinion, it's something very important, something I'm looking at, every person I'm interviewing, thiss to our curiosity. You need to be curious about what's out there. If you're not serious, you cannot evolve. And the second one is learning ability. Even if you don't know something, you still you say Okay, I don't know when, but I will Girl go and learn about it, you know, like wear learning every day, something like what was there five years ago and what is there to years ago? It's different to what we have now. So learn ability and curious. It's yours, too. Two main topics for me >> Fantastic. Well, under again, Congratulations on winning. The definite Freedom Warrior is here twenty nineteen. It's been a pleasure talking to you, well, producing more great things that you do in the definite community in the next year. Thank you very much. Thanks for having our pleasure for John Ferrier. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching us live on the cubes. Saturday of coverage. Francisco Definite. Create twenty nineteen. Thanks for watching.